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  1. On Twitter I’m seeing a lot of wishful thinking that this will finally ignite an anti-Muslim crusade. Even if it was Muslim arson, it’s insane to think that this will wake up the same people who shrugged their shoulders at Bataclan/Nice/Hebdo/etc

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Even if it was Muslim arson
     
    Mohammedans have to be careful around Jesus, who is a prophet, albeit a dwarf prophet, to them. I doubt the fecal treatment given to other French churches of late was their work, unless there are MENA Sartres among them.

    Christians who have it in for Jews don't attack Isaiah or Jeremiah.

    JimB's hypothesis of low wages and standards appears to be the most likely.

    I'm also tempted to channel Jerry Falwell and accept this as an Act of God. The best way to protect churches is to attend them.
    , @Desiderius
    The blessed mother’s role is the giving and nurturance of Life. Pray first for revival, for nothing can be accomplished without it.
    , @L Woods
    In fairness, the last straw isn't always something of much significance in itself (ie, the cartridge oil that ignited the Sepoy Mutiny). Still, I expect whitey will do exactly what he's best at: nothing.
    , @anon
    I'm waiting for the suggestions that the restored cathedral be multi-faith, but of course with no Christian symbols or imagery, as that might offend people of other faiths. Might as well throw in a minaret while they're at it. And "Notre Dame du Prophète" has a nice ecumenical ring to it, I think.
    , @Cagey Beast
    Everyone on this side of the old Iron Curtain are the kind of "people who shrugged their shoulders at Bataclan/Nice/Hebdo/etc". It's just as true of Americans as it is of the French.
    , @Prof. Woland
    A week ago, the liberals were trying to make the church fires in the south a topic again. Perhaps, Jerrold Nadler will be more cautious now that the winds are shifting.
    , @Escher
    If it was Muslim arson, the truth will be buried deeper than the Mariana trench.
  2. “Civilization” is still the best television documentary ever. Just brilliant.

    Meanwhile, the loss of Notre Dame is a horrendous. But given current trends, in 20 or 30 more years, the demolition of the great cathedrals in France, Germany, England and a few others will be government policy.

    • Agree: Coemgen, BB753
    • Replies: @Ibound1
    No. They will be repurposed as mosques, as per government policy. And Islamic twitter is full of happy emojis today about this fire.
    , @Anon7
    Muslims don’t demolish what they can use!

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=Qax5YGqcQcM

    , @Desiderius
    It is. It is also spelled with the British "s". Give the toffs their due.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilisation_(TV_series)
    , @Meretricious

    Meanwhile, the loss of Notre Dame is horrendous. But given current trends, in 20 or 30 more years, the demolition of the great cathedrals in France, Germany, England and a few others will be government policy.
     
    It's going to be a lot more than the great cathedrals. We have a civilization to destroy!
    , @AndrewR
    Why destroy them when they can be made into mosques?
  3. No doubt the restoration crews working on Notre Dame are filled with low wage immigrants given that the government seems to be doing repairs on the cheap. Also, firefighter crews in Paris are loaded with Muslims. I can’t help thinking the fire was either due to malice or low IQ, and that the slow response of the Parisian fire department is the result of indifference. Perhaps this is the fate of all Catholic monuments in Europe if Islamification isn’t stopped.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    No doubt the restoration crews working on Notre Dame are filled with low wage immigrants given that the government seems to be doing repairs on the cheap
     
    This makes the most sense of any explanation. Corners were cut, and this is the price.

    And why is the government-- the city, or the nation?-- doing the repairs? The French haven't turned in awhile, have they?
    , @Dr. X
    You gotta wonder if a Muslim construction crew didn't just happen to "accidentally" start the fire... quite coincidental that an iconic Christian church that stood for almost a thousand years just happened to burn a month after the New Zealand thing...
    , @Houston 1992
    I visited ND 2 weeks ago. The security guards were African-Africans.
    The mood was light and cheerful despite the crowds. The cathedral was awe inspiring, but probably fails to command enough respect to motivate the French "nation" to rededicate and redirect the refugee budget to its rebuilding though
    , @Random Smartaleck

    I can’t help thinking the fire was either due to malice or low IQ, and that the slow response of the Parisian fire department is the result of indifference.
     
    And any explanatory angle you care to take on this comes back to the ongoing decay and foolishness of the West.
    , @tyrone
    Are they dancing in the ban-lieu?…….enquiring minds want to know……just making way for the mosque?
    , @Thirdtwin
    "...firefighter crews in Paris are loaded with Muslims..."

    Do you have a source for that? I'm not doubting you at all. It would explain this mention of prayer in an otherwise secular tweet by Ilhan Omar:

    "...Thinking of the people of Paris and praying for every first responder trying to save this wonder..."
    , @Lagertha
    It all seems too sinister, once again...too close to the timing of Christ Church for Christ's sake.

    I am so jaded that I believe setting this fire was intentional - no renovation of rare, Medieval, iconic structures is handled this poorly that fire is a thing that could happen (hmmmm, something really did happen, here, in Paris) - this is total bullshit. Notre Dame is the oldest, tallest symbol of Western Civ: Twin Towers came down; now, the most iconic symbol left unscathed for centuries, in a modern day, European, conflict zone, has been destroyed by people who live to hate.
    , @Lagertha
    It all seems too sinister, once again...too close to the timing of Christ Church for Christ's sake.

    I am so jaded that I believe setting this fire was intentional. No renovation of rare, Medieval, iconic structures is handled this poorly that fire is a thing that could happen - (hmmmm; something really did happen, here, in Paris) - this smells bad and phony.

    Notre Dame is the oldest, tallest symbol of Western Civ: Twin Towers came down; now, the most iconic, tall symbol left unscathed for centuries, in a modern day, European, conflict zone, has been destroyed by people who live to hate Western Civilization and European people. I am convinced this was intentionally started since architectural renovations of this level, are coordinated like open heart surgery. Somebody just wanted to burn it down.
  4. I might just tune in to the news tonight @ 6 to see how they managed to blame this on Trump.

    • Agree: Realist
    • Replies: @Bill Jones
    I hear he's not covering himself with glory via his tweets.
  5. In September 2016, Islamic terrorists made a botched attempt to blow up Notre Dame with a car bomb. I hope this isn’t a follow up attack, as the 2001 attack on the World Trade Center followed the botched one in 1993. At the moment the news is attributing the fire to restoration work being done.

    I visited Notre Dame for the first time two months ago. Generally, sightseeing doesn’t do that much for me, but Notre Dame moved me profoundly. I’m a thoroughly lapsed Catholic, so it wasn’t that, and I don’t think it was just its age, its beauty, or its historical significance. The place had an aura about it, some kind of spiritual power. I’m glad I saw–and felt–it. Perhaps it can be restored.

    • Agree: Lot, ic1000
    • Replies: @Thomas
    Go see St. Peter’s in Rome someday. You’ll know why when you do.
    , @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    Pray the rosary, lapsed Catholic, and save your soul!
    , @TomSchmidt
    Nearby, on the same island, is Sainte Chapelle. That will still be there and visible. Go, next time in Paris, during the afternoon. You won't remember Notre Dame.
    , @Achmed E. Newman
    I hate to say it, but to me what's most impressive is all the work involved, both structural and detailed. It's ain't no big-box store.
    , @Mick Jagger gathers no Mosque
    Notre Dame was built in the ages of Faith and The Faith is dead in France. I wouldn't give a dime to Macron's folly (his promise to rebuild)

    Catholic Prophecy foresees civil war breaking out in France and Italy about the same time (Civil war in England later) with the French finally, restoring the Monarchy The Fence Catholic Monarch wil team with a great Pope and they wil defeat the Russian and Prussians in Cologne and, finally, in Westphalia and the nature of the triumph wil make it clear to man that Gid intervened on behalf of the Monarch and Pope.

    The Catholic Monarch will then chase the invading Mahometan armies back into the middle east
  6. • Replies: @Issac
    Nothing he wrote was reasonable, but reading daily open borders propaganda makes it appear so.
    , @Anon

    somewhat off-topic, here is a reasonable essay on immigration by Andrew Sullivan:

    http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/04/andrew-sullivan-the-opportunity-of-white-anxiety.html
     
    I'm glad to see Eric Kaufmann's book getting some high profile attention stateside.

    In addition to Kaufmann's analysis and prescriptions, his book contains a quite detailed history of American immigration, cosmopolitanism and the intellectual movements related to it. Kaufmann traces it from pre-Revolution through, well, people like Peter Brimelow. If you think you know this stuff, you don't.

    The Zeroeth Amendment is covered, though not called that by Kaufmann. It started with just a teeny plaque inside the base, and grew from there.

    Kaufmann has done some excellent interviews that are available on YouTube.
    , @Peter Akuleyev
    Andrew's approval of the Border Wall is perceptive, and telling: "Merely as a symbol of border control, it could calm people down, curtail some of the hysteria, and dampen the appeal of the far right".

    This is exactly why I oppose the Wall. It will be a symbol, and only a symbol, allowing the politicians to do nothing. A Wall is no substitute for vigilance and harshly punishing the people who employ illegal aliens and make this country an attractive destination for them.
    , @South Texas Guy
    Had an illegal approach the house this evening. He didn't seem to be armed, but lied about how many more were with him. I could go on, but I've seen the type before, and I have to wonder if I didn't have a pistol on my belt what would have happened.

    This is ridiculous. This is something people in Maine, Minnesota or whatever don't have to deal with. It's just not a good idea here to walk around if you're not strapped.

    Most are fine. I don't blame them. But some, and I suspect this guy was one of them, are extremely bad. If he would have shot me, he would have had my wallet, car keys, and be in Dallas or whereever before anyone thought to look for me. And if he's never been picked up before, no prints in the system, no ID.
  7. Thanks for this Steve. Kenneth Clarke is the perfect response.
    Heard Shepherd Smith cut off a French official who mentioned the many churches in France that are desecrated every month. “Sir, sir, we will not allow you to speculate…..”
    Filth

    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    Shepard Smith is one of a number of liberals who have key positions on the supposedly conservative Fox channel. Swamp creature Chris Wallace is another.
    , @reactionry
    Re Filth Columnist

    Perhaps we should be grateful that he didn't say, "Sir, sir, take [or "walk"] that hunch back."

    , @larry lurker
    https://youtu.be/5Tydsvm1I6c

    Fox News identifies Philippe Karsenty as an elected official but according to Wikipedia he ran for office in 2012 and lost. He seems to be best known for this:

    Muhammad al-Durrah Controversy

    Karsenty came to public attention in 2004, when he was sued for libel by the French television network, France 2, after accusing the network of having broadcast a staged footage of the reported killing of a 12-year-old Palestinian boy, Muhammad al-Durrah, during a gun battle in the Gaza Strip in 2000. France 2 won its case in October 2006, but the judgment was overturned by the Paris Court of Appeal in May 2008, with France 2 refusing to release the full footage taken by their stringer on that day. France 2 has appealed the decision to the Cour de cassation, France's highest court. In February 2012, the Cour de cassation cancelled the ruling of the Court of Appeal which had acquitted Karsenty. On June 26, 2013, the Paris Court of Appeals once again convicted Karsenty of defamation, and fined him €7000.
     
    , @Achmed E. Newman

    “Sir, sir, we will not allow you to speculate…..”
     
    Yeah, like it's a court of law rather than just some nightly infotainment.

    Filth!
     
    AGREED, Rick. (My punctuation and bolding.)
  8. @JimB
    No doubt the restoration crews working on Notre Dame are filled with low wage immigrants given that the government seems to be doing repairs on the cheap. Also, firefighter crews in Paris are loaded with Muslims. I can’t help thinking the fire was either due to malice or low IQ, and that the slow response of the Parisian fire department is the result of indifference. Perhaps this is the fate of all Catholic monuments in Europe if Islamification isn’t stopped.

    No doubt the restoration crews working on Notre Dame are filled with low wage immigrants given that the government seems to be doing repairs on the cheap

    This makes the most sense of any explanation. Corners were cut, and this is the price.

    And why is the government– the city, or the nation?– doing the repairs? The French haven’t turned in awhile, have they?

    • Replies: @El Dato
    RT says:

    "French firefighters 'not sure' if Notre Dame fire can be stopped"
     
    WTF! All Twin Towers mustr go!!! Jesus Christ.

    https://www.rt.com/news/456623-notre-dame-renovations-deterioration/


    The peak of the church had been undergoing a major €6 million renovation — and the fire is thought to be linked to the revamp, French media reported, quoting the Paris fire brigade.

    Structural problems have plagued the old building for years, including dangerously eroded stone, broken gargoyles and fallen balustrades, André Finot, the cathedral’s spokesperson, told the New York Times in 2017. Finot told the newspaper the situation was “spinning out of control.”

    The Friends of Notre Dame foundation has even been seeking to raise a massive €150 million ($180 million) from French citizens and Francophiles in the US to help foot the bill for a major facelift. The French government itself allocates about €2 million each year for upkeep of the building.
     

    Well, Russia managed to burn a Moscow library some time back, in 2015

    Fire in major Russian library destroys 1m historic documents: Leading scientist speaks of cultural ‘Chernobyl’ after blaze ravages 2,000 sq metres of Moscow institute holding papers dating to 16th century

    One would think officials would rather perform organizational kabuki than do their jobs. One would not be wrong.

    , @Jack D
    Perhap French construction workers who had a bit more wine than they should have with lunch?

    It's really much too soon to blame this on Muslims. It's only going to make you look foolish later on for having jumped to conclusions when it turns out that Pierre done it.
    , @Rapparee

    And why is the government– the city, or the nation?– doing the repairs?
     
    Since 1905, the French state owns the building, operating it on behalf of the Catholic Church. Separation of Church and State means something very different in France than in the US.
    , @Reg Cæsar
    That should read "tithed", not "turned".

    Damned Kindle. It also recognized the names Gehry and Libeskind, but not Macron. What gives in Seattle?
  9. AFAIK the French didn’t need it anymore.

    Despite all the right-wing nonsense, such as scrapping the wealth tax, LREM, led by a former “Socialist”, is set to win European elections. Moreover, their elections attract 80% of adults, in contrast to US, where maybe 40% feel stupid enough to validate Trump or Clinton.

    And they were about to switch from right-wing Jew Sarko to “left-wing” Jew DSK. Who needs Christians?

    Just last week, a powerless May had Macron do what she wanted.

    It’s about time to delete France.

    • Replies: @Alfa158
    Maybe the cathedral herself has some sentience and decided that there was no longer a place for her in the former France. Why continue to exist as an little more than an attraction for art aficionados and tourists who want to gape at her glories? When she is no longer fulfilling her role as a religious center? When the country around her is being overrun by the people Charles Martel fought to repel? When the race who built her no longer cares about religion or it’s own heritage and is heading for replacement? Better to let herself burn than be converted to a mosque.
  10. Anon[173] • Disclaimer says:

    It’s a symbol for the era of Macron. The destruction of the French. Unless they immediately started moving the valuable artwork out of the building at first sign of flames, it’s gone for good. The heat will be too great for anyone to survive entering the building to take it out later. The French have never been good at fast response and instant organization during an emergency the way Nordics and Anglo-Saxons are.

    • Replies: @Robert E Lee
    I agree, the nordics and anglos make good slaves. Do not worry, there will always be opportunity for you guys to run into burning buildings for as long as we see fit to have you on this planet. One of the few things you are good for besides breeding females for our enjoyment.
  11. @JimB
    No doubt the restoration crews working on Notre Dame are filled with low wage immigrants given that the government seems to be doing repairs on the cheap. Also, firefighter crews in Paris are loaded with Muslims. I can’t help thinking the fire was either due to malice or low IQ, and that the slow response of the Parisian fire department is the result of indifference. Perhaps this is the fate of all Catholic monuments in Europe if Islamification isn’t stopped.

    You gotta wonder if a Muslim construction crew didn’t just happen to “accidentally” start the fire… quite coincidental that an iconic Christian church that stood for almost a thousand years just happened to burn a month after the New Zealand thing…

    • Replies: @Anon
    It's quite a coincidence that it's burning a week before Easter.
    , @istevefan
    Good catch. The 15th of March, and now April. And past experience had shown that retaliations aren't limited by geography.
    , @Lot
    There was an arson attack on Paris’s second largest church last month:

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8804063/france-church-arson-attacks-vandalism-christian-heritage/
    , @Anonymous

    You gotta wonder if a Muslim construction crew didn’t just happen to “accidentally” start the fire…
     
    Muslim's don't generally attempt to destroy Christian holy sites. Jesus is revered in Islam.
    , @Jim Bob Lassiter
    It's also quite a coincidence that Michelle Obama is in Paris signing books. Her dissembling pontifications followed by Barry's tweets are really quite sickening.
  12. Fire is wrecking Notre Dame Cathedral.

    Mass legal immigration and illegal immigration are destroying European Christian nations.

    Trump is pushing mass legal immigration and illegal immigration.

    Monetary policy has been used to buy off certain generations of European Christians to prevent them from protecting their people and their culture and their nations and their lands.

    Electronic credit conjured up out of thin air is no more intrinsically valuable than the smoke rising from Notre Dame and the greedy bloated disgusting scum born before 1965 are smug with their ill-gotten gains and their knowledge that their actions will demographically destroy all European Christian nations — in Europe and around the world.

    Those born before 1965 who did nothing to stop the mass legal immigration and illegal immigration will deserve the curses of those who come after. That line from Brimelow is powerful and true.

  13. Muslims on social media are posting smiling faces and talking about divine justice.
    https://postimg.cc/grS0qsD5
    A day ago the cathedral of St Denis was desecrated; St Denis is of course tied to the repulse of Muslims in Medieval Europe.

    • Replies: @MBlanc46
    St Denis was third century, three centuries before Islam.
    , @Expletive Deleted
    Oriflamme. the Sacred Banner of St Denis
    Combat without quarter/mercy/ransom/
    Ye that makes sense to me
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5_8_a1QBZs
  14. @AndrewR
    On Twitter I'm seeing a lot of wishful thinking that this will finally ignite an anti-Muslim crusade. Even if it was Muslim arson, it's insane to think that this will wake up the same people who shrugged their shoulders at Bataclan/Nice/Hebdo/etc

    Even if it was Muslim arson

    Mohammedans have to be careful around Jesus, who is a prophet, albeit a dwarf prophet, to them. I doubt the fecal treatment given to other French churches of late was their work, unless there are MENA Sartres among them.

    Christians who have it in for Jews don’t attack Isaiah or Jeremiah.

    JimB’s hypothesis of low wages and standards appears to be the most likely.

    I’m also tempted to channel Jerry Falwell and accept this as an Act of God. The best way to protect churches is to attend them.

    • Replies: @Thea
    Ultimately everything is an act of God no matter how insignificant. A sparrow doesn’t fall from the sky outside His will. What are we to learn from is perhaps the more urgent question.
    , @istevefan

    Mohammedans have to be careful around Jesus, who is a prophet, albeit a dwarf prophet, to them. I doubt the fecal treatment given to other French churches of late was their work, unless there are MENA Sartres among them.
     
    They have to speak well of him because they consider him a prophet. But they don't have to respect crosses, crucifixes or any statues of him because they consider that idolatry. So they will on occasion ransack a church and destroy the statues, glass windows and any other depictions they find.
  15. Why are there people on Twitter now who express sadness at Notre Dame burning when they work to destroy the West in all other circumstances? Aren’t our cathedrals metaphorically burning down every day? The fact that self-styled arch-conservatives call the current regime “the Cathedral” shows how the West is gone already.

    • Agree: Random Smartaleck
    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
    Cagey Beast asked:

    Why are there people on Twitter now who express sadness at Notre Dame burning when they work to destroy the West in all other circumstances?
     
    Becuase, in the end, they know they are members of a civilization, a unique civilization that, for all its flaws, has the most spectacular achievements in human history.

    All the white-bashing, all the attacks on Western civilization, are really just petty little scams aimed at increasing their power, indeed, in some cases, just at getting a bit more of the loot into their own personal bank accounts .

    It is also worth remembering that most people in the rest of the world do not hate the West: they want to be the West.

    The coming together around this tragedy reminds us that sometimes sanity wins out.
  16. @Dr. X
    You gotta wonder if a Muslim construction crew didn't just happen to "accidentally" start the fire... quite coincidental that an iconic Christian church that stood for almost a thousand years just happened to burn a month after the New Zealand thing...

    It’s quite a coincidence that it’s burning a week before Easter.

  17. @Harry Baldwin
    In September 2016, Islamic terrorists made a botched attempt to blow up Notre Dame with a car bomb. I hope this isn't a follow up attack, as the 2001 attack on the World Trade Center followed the botched one in 1993. At the moment the news is attributing the fire to restoration work being done.

    I visited Notre Dame for the first time two months ago. Generally, sightseeing doesn't do that much for me, but Notre Dame moved me profoundly. I'm a thoroughly lapsed Catholic, so it wasn't that, and I don't think it was just its age, its beauty, or its historical significance. The place had an aura about it, some kind of spiritual power. I'm glad I saw--and felt--it. Perhaps it can be restored.

    Go see St. Peter’s in Rome someday. You’ll know why when you do.

    • Agree: slumber_j
  18. @JimB
    No doubt the restoration crews working on Notre Dame are filled with low wage immigrants given that the government seems to be doing repairs on the cheap. Also, firefighter crews in Paris are loaded with Muslims. I can’t help thinking the fire was either due to malice or low IQ, and that the slow response of the Parisian fire department is the result of indifference. Perhaps this is the fate of all Catholic monuments in Europe if Islamification isn’t stopped.

    I visited ND 2 weeks ago. The security guards were African-Africans.
    The mood was light and cheerful despite the crowds. The cathedral was awe inspiring, but probably fails to command enough respect to motivate the French “nation” to rededicate and redirect the refugee budget to its rebuilding though

    • Replies: @Kevin O'Keeffe

    I visited ND 2 weeks ago. The security guards were African-Africans.
     
    You just mean they were Black, right? I mean, they weren't from the USA, correct? It's a weird world, so there's a possibility you meant exactly what you typed, but I doubt it.
    , @Ann K
    African Americans in what way?
    , @slumber_j
    I was there a month ago today with the wife and kids and had similar impressions. Really jarring and awful that this has happened.
  19. I’ve heard them say it was probably due to renovation work. Others familiar with such work say there are always guys on fire watch with extinguishers and such whenever work is being down that could cause a fire. Additionally they say a fire watch is kept 2 or more hours after such work is done to ensure smoldering embers don’t ignite. Given how anal the Euros are on safety issues, e.g. mandatory yellow vest in car, I doubt this was a construction mistake.

    But given the nature of the ruling class, do you really think they will report the truth even if was terrorism?

    Outside of that, I am very upset at what was lost. It’s unreal to think Notre Dame survived the anti-Christian revolution and both world wars. This loss is symbolic of our times.

    • Agree: Endgame Napoleon
    • Replies: @Desiderius
    The anti-Christian revolution is ongoing.
    , @Thea
    This is the final culmination of the anti-Christian revolution. It is fittingly symbolic of the West today.

    Norte Dame has been a tourist trap for generations inspiring no more thought of the sacrifice of Christ than a visit to Stonehenge would.

    Headtbreaking but not surprising really

    , @Louis Renault
    Your point on fire watches are spot on. There should also be prestaged gear for fighting a fire. The standard fire trucks in the city wouldn't be able to reach the roof either.
    , @Bubba

    Additionally they say a fire watch is kept 2 or more hours after such work is done to ensure smoldering embers don’t ignite.
     
    Unless they are trained firefighters who know exactly how to stop a fire, then a fire watch in this case is useless. The "fire watch" most likely consisted unskilled and untrained workers who ran away in panic.

    Unfortunately the loss of this masterpiece will soon be forgotten faster than the horrific Batclan and Charlie Hebdo massacres.
    , @Vinteuil

    Others familiar with such work say there are always guys on fire watch with extinguishers and such whenever work is being done that could cause a fire. Additionally they say a fire watch is kept 2 or more hours after such work is done to ensure smoldering embers don’t ignite. Given how anal the Euros are on safety issues, e.g. mandatory yellow vest in car, I doubt this was a construction mistake.

    But given the nature of the ruling class, do you really think they will report the truth even if was terrorism?
     
    I, too, doubt the official story - and for the same reason.

    I've spent a lot of time in Europe, over the last few years, and I've been constantly impressed by the meticulous care they're giving to the restoration of their past - whether in Paris, or Ghent, or Firenze.

    I find it hard to believe that this is mere carelessness. I find it easy to believe that The Powers That Be are lying to me.
  20. Emma Watson was born in Paris on this day 29 years ago.

    FWIW

    • Replies: @Kylie
    Henry James was born in New York City on this day 176 tears ago.

    Of Notre Dame, he writes in The Ambassadors, "He[Strether] trod the long dim nave, sat in the splendid choir, paused before the cluttered chapels of the east end, and the mighty monument laid upon him its spell."
  21. @Dr. X
    You gotta wonder if a Muslim construction crew didn't just happen to "accidentally" start the fire... quite coincidental that an iconic Christian church that stood for almost a thousand years just happened to burn a month after the New Zealand thing...

    Good catch. The 15th of March, and now April. And past experience had shown that retaliations aren’t limited by geography.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    It's also Tax Day. Perhaps it was ignited by American anti-tax libertarians. There's the same amount of evidence as y'all have for pinning it on Muslims.
  22. The destruction of Christendom.

    God help us.

  23. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:

  24. It only befits the times.

  25. I, for one, look forward to visiting the new Grand Mosque of Paris that will replace it.

  26. Fires happen, even in great historic buildings. Within my lifetime I recall blazes in York Minster and Windsor Castle.

    ND will be restored.

    And we can console ourselves with the knowledge that the chief fire officer in Paris was close enough to be able to take immediate action:

    “The bells, Esmeralda! The bells!”

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Cortes, I like your comments, but Notre Dame would have to be replicated, not restored,structurally a total loss.
    , @wren
    Disney's Clopin:

    Morning in Paris, the city awakes

    To the bells of Notre Dame

    The fisherman fishes, the bakerman bakes

    To the bells of Notre Dame

    To the big bells as loud as the thunder

    To the little bells soft as a psalm

    And some say the soul of the city's the toll of the bells

    The bells of Notre Dame.
    , @prosa123
    Fires happen, even in great historic buildings. Within my lifetime I recall blazes in York Minster and Windsor Castle.

    Just yesterday there was a fire in the basement of New York's enormous (and unfinished after 120+ years of construction) cathedral of St. John the Divine. It didn't appear to cause too much fire damage but the smoke was bad enough that the Palm Sunday services had to be held outdoors.
  27. @AndrewR
    On Twitter I'm seeing a lot of wishful thinking that this will finally ignite an anti-Muslim crusade. Even if it was Muslim arson, it's insane to think that this will wake up the same people who shrugged their shoulders at Bataclan/Nice/Hebdo/etc

    The blessed mother’s role is the giving and nurturance of Life. Pray first for revival, for nothing can be accomplished without it.

  28. If it is sabotage do you think the government will ever allow the people to know it?

    It’s truly hard for me to believe that the restoration of one of the greatest pieces of architecture on the planet was subject to no greater safety protocols than a remodel at a Jiffy Lube.

    If it is sabotage it it may seem silly to hope that the West will finally wake up to the threat of Islam, but people have a way of responding emotionally to attacks on their culture and heritage in a way they don’t respond to actual, you know, murder.

    • Replies: @Barnard
    You would think the French government would want major remodel work at Notre Dame to be a high quality, high priority job just because of the tourism draw. Clearly that wasn't the case, there had already been criticism the work was being done on the cheap. The question in the aftermath will be do the French people still care enough about their culture to demand accountability. I hope that they do, but am doubtful anything meaningful will happen.
    , @Colin Wright
    '...If it is sabotage it it may seem silly to hope that the West will finally wake up to the threat of Islam,...

    It's almost pathetic that people think Islam is the threat we face.

    If enough really do think that way, then there is no hope.
  29. The virtue of prosperity, is temperance; the virtue of adversity, is fortitude; which in morals is the more heroical virtue. Prosperity is the blessing of the Old Testament; adversity is the blessing of the New; which carrieth the greater benediction, and the clearer revelation of God’s favor. Yet even in the Old Testament, if you listen to David’s harp, you shall hear as many hearse-like airs as carols; and the pencil of the Holy Ghost hath labored more in describing the afflictions of Job, than the felicities of Solomon. Prosperity is not without many fears and distastes; and adversity is not without comforts and hopes. We see in needle-works and embroideries, it is more pleasing to have a lively work, upon a sad and solemn ground, than to have a dark and melancholy work, upon a lightsome ground: judge therefore of the pleasure of the heart, by the pleasure of the eye. Certainly virtue is like precious odors, most fragrant when they are incensed, or crushed: for prosperity doth best discover vice, but adversity doth best discover virtue.

    – Bacon

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Desi, thank you for posting this.
  30. But given the nature of the ruling class, do you really think they will report the truth even if was terrorism?

    If Muslims did it, the Macron government will never admit it.

    It’ll be interesting to see if they try to use the fire to declare emergency powers to crack down on the Yellow Vests, though.

    Could this become a French Reichstag fire?

  31. @Aardvark
    I might just tune in to the news tonight @ 6 to see how they managed to blame this on Trump.

    I hear he’s not covering himself with glory via his tweets.

    • Replies: @Matra
    Trump started the day giving advice to Boeing on branding then moved on to giving the French advice on putting out the fire. Then there's the Tiger Woods stuff. Cringe.
    , @Desiderius
    He was trying to give them fire-fighting advice. Giving advice is how boomerdads ( all dads, really) show they care. It’s absurd and unusual but so are the times.
    , @Jack D
    He suggested dropping water from a plane - the French fire service replied that this would damage the structure - they're probably right but at this point it looks like a total loss so maybe he was right - perhaps a damaged structure is better than no structure. Sometimes it takes some "out of the box" thinking by someone who is not an "expert" to come up with the right answer.

    Our fire hoses perhaps pump a little more than Roman bucket brigades but judging by the results are little more effective. You would think that with all the technology that we have that firefighting would have advanced beyond "pour water on it". One a structure is fully involved, with current technology the best that they can do seems to keep the fire from spreading to nearby buildings and sometimes not even that. Near where I live a large block square apt. complex under construction caught fire due to a spark from a welder's torch. Not only did it burn to the ground but it set the neighboring occupied complex on fire and burned that to the ground too.

    , @Cloudbuster
    There is literally nothing that Trump can say that some people won't declare monstrous.
  32. @istevefan
    I've heard them say it was probably due to renovation work. Others familiar with such work say there are always guys on fire watch with extinguishers and such whenever work is being down that could cause a fire. Additionally they say a fire watch is kept 2 or more hours after such work is done to ensure smoldering embers don't ignite. Given how anal the Euros are on safety issues, e.g. mandatory yellow vest in car, I doubt this was a construction mistake.

    But given the nature of the ruling class, do you really think they will report the truth even if was terrorism?

    Outside of that, I am very upset at what was lost. It's unreal to think Notre Dame survived the anti-Christian revolution and both world wars. This loss is symbolic of our times.

    The anti-Christian revolution is ongoing.

    • Agree: Barnard, Hail
  33. Holy crap, I don’t watch news, so I really am glad I found out about this. I was there about 1 year ago, and I was so annoyed by all the security stuff at other places in Paris, that I was miffed when the guy told me to take of my cap – I felt embarrassed upon realizing that, no, this was not to check the hat for plastique, but it’s a church, for crying out loud! We stayed over an hour enjoying the place. Here’s the quick post about it.

  34. I always check the date when “some people did something” as Ilhan Omar so cleverly puts it.

    April 15, same date as the Boston Marathon bombings.

    I don’t know if there’s a connection, my knowledge of great Islamic victories or martyrdoms is scant. The Islamists know every event and every date, though. Every time they ‘do something’ you can be sure it’s connected to some grudge from the middle ages or earlier.

    Maybe it’s an ‘accident.’ But if it isn’t it’s going to be harder than usual to memory-hole the arson of one of the defining pieces of architecture in Christendom.

    Maybe they’ll blame the Yellow Vests and put the iron fist down.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    The Islamists know every event and every date, though.
     
    On their calendar. Our April 15th would be a different date every year.

    I don't know about the French, but their Latin cousins are fond of being streets after dates.


    https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/direction-signs-for-iconic-avenues-in-buenos-aires-picture-id1127311728

    Whereas we...



    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gropecunt_Lane
    , @Hail

    Every time they ‘do something’ you can be sure it’s connected to some grudge from the middle ages or earlier.
     
    https://twitter.com/licht_alberich/status/1117861377614520320

    John Morgan
    @licht_alberich

    In the comments sections of news sites and on social media, Muslims in France are mocking the fire at Notre Dame Cathedral. Seriously, if these people hate their hosts and their culture so much, they need to be sent home.
     
  35. @RickinJax
    Thanks for this Steve. Kenneth Clarke is the perfect response.
    Heard Shepherd Smith cut off a French official who mentioned the many churches in France that are desecrated every month. “Sir, sir, we will not allow you to speculate.....”
    Filth

    Shepard Smith is one of a number of liberals who have key positions on the supposedly conservative Fox channel. Swamp creature Chris Wallace is another.

    • Replies: @Realist
    Totally agree. Smith is despicable in so many ways.
  36. @Dr. X
    You gotta wonder if a Muslim construction crew didn't just happen to "accidentally" start the fire... quite coincidental that an iconic Christian church that stood for almost a thousand years just happened to burn a month after the New Zealand thing...

    There was an arson attack on Paris’s second largest church last month:

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8804063/france-church-arson-attacks-vandalism-christian-heritage/

  37. There is no such thing as so-called “Judeo-Christianity.” No eternal truth in the nonsense called “Judeo-Christian.”

    There is such a thing as Jew Bolshevism. Jew Bolsheviks are using mass legal immigration and illegal immigration as demographic weapons to attack and destroy European Christian nations.

    Remember, the Bolshevik Jews who control CBS/VIACOM attacked Richard Spencer because Spencer is talking about WHITE GENOCIDE and WHITE RACE REPLACEMENT.

    Ben Shapiro is an anti-White Bolshevik Jew who pushes mass legal immigration and multiculturalism.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Charles, there is no Jewish edifice in the whole world that compares to a cathedral.
  38. @Anon
    It's a symbol for the era of Macron. The destruction of the French. Unless they immediately started moving the valuable artwork out of the building at first sign of flames, it's gone for good. The heat will be too great for anyone to survive entering the building to take it out later. The French have never been good at fast response and instant organization during an emergency the way Nordics and Anglo-Saxons are.

    I agree, the nordics and anglos make good slaves. Do not worry, there will always be opportunity for you guys to run into burning buildings for as long as we see fit to have you on this planet. One of the few things you are good for besides breeding females for our enjoyment.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    REL. I could have used the Troll button, but I would rather say you are one.
    , @Charles Erwin Wilson 3
    Ah, the basement boy presumes to misappropriate the name of the great Robert E. Lee. When you stand in that great day, and answer for your deeds, remember your choice today.
  39. @Houston 1992
    I visited ND 2 weeks ago. The security guards were African-Africans.
    The mood was light and cheerful despite the crowds. The cathedral was awe inspiring, but probably fails to command enough respect to motivate the French "nation" to rededicate and redirect the refugee budget to its rebuilding though

    I visited ND 2 weeks ago. The security guards were African-Africans.

    You just mean they were Black, right? I mean, they weren’t from the USA, correct? It’s a weird world, so there’s a possibility you meant exactly what you typed, but I doubt it.

    • Replies: @Cato
    Dude, he meant they were black people straight from Africa.
  40. @Wilkey
    If it is sabotage do you think the government will ever allow the people to know it?

    It's truly hard for me to believe that the restoration of one of the greatest pieces of architecture on the planet was subject to no greater safety protocols than a remodel at a Jiffy Lube.

    If it is sabotage it it may seem silly to hope that the West will finally wake up to the threat of Islam, but people have a way of responding emotionally to attacks on their culture and heritage in a way they don't respond to actual, you know, murder.

    You would think the French government would want major remodel work at Notre Dame to be a high quality, high priority job just because of the tourism draw. Clearly that wasn’t the case, there had already been criticism the work was being done on the cheap. The question in the aftermath will be do the French people still care enough about their culture to demand accountability. I hope that they do, but am doubtful anything meaningful will happen.

  41. The “first daughter of the Church” began repudiating her spiritual heritage nearly three centuries ago. We’re seeing the end stages of the process now. Over the course of the last century, the Christian churches of France and the rest of Europe and Britain have become spiritually empty relics, most valued for the tourist money they draw and next for their artistic and historical significance. They have become soulless monuments to a civilization whose “leaders” and the social parasites promoted by those leaders are intent on destroying.

    I’ve read news reports suggesting that it was deliberate government policy to staff the Notre Dame restoration teams with moooslim immigrants. This was done despite several recent, and very serious attempts by moooslim fanatics to destroy the building and its contents. I have no doubt that we will eventually discover that it was, in fact, mooslim vandalism that destroyed this building.

    But it doesn’t really matter, unless this serves as a wake up call to Europe and Europeans and their descendants around the world. If things continue as they are, Europe and its settlements will become ever more barren, soulless vestiges of a once great civilization. Better to utterly destroy these vestiges so that something new and spiritually alive can grow in their place.

    My only prayer is that, whatever usurpers of European civilization may arise will extirpate the corrupt leadership and cultural parasites that brought this tragedy to pass so that neither these leaders nor parasites nor any possible descendants will survive to perpetrate another such desecration of a great civilization.

    • Agree: Old Palo Altan
    • Replies: @Anonymous

    I’ve read news reports suggesting that it was deliberate government policy to staff the Notre Dame restoration teams with moooslim immigrants. This was done despite several recent, and very serious attempts by moooslim fanatics to destroy the building and its contents. I have no doubt that we will eventually discover that it was, in fact, mooslim vandalism that destroyed this building.
     
    Maybe, maybe not. My guess is that fire would not have made the muzzies get their rocks off nearly as well as a good blast. Like the now bought off IRA, Muzzies really like to make stuff go kaboom.
    , @Cagey Beast
    .... and if Europe does finally fall to Islam, America will be filled with death worshipping Central Americans. A few pockets of White holy rollers will be hanging on here and there, convinced their prosperity gospel heresy saved them from Europe's fate. The Fabian socialists in fancy-drsss (Mainline Protestants and White Catholics) will be literally and figuratively cannibalized by the rest. Only the flyover country heretics will be around by then.
    , @Ron Mexico
    "the corrupt leadership and cultural parasites that brought this tragedy to pass" the tables of the money changers have been turned, let's see how French Catholics respond.
    , @Buffalo Joe
    Jus, Sign of the times. Our last two presidents seem to have no religious footing unless it is for a photo op.
  42. @Reg Cæsar

    No doubt the restoration crews working on Notre Dame are filled with low wage immigrants given that the government seems to be doing repairs on the cheap
     
    This makes the most sense of any explanation. Corners were cut, and this is the price.

    And why is the government-- the city, or the nation?-- doing the repairs? The French haven't turned in awhile, have they?

    RT says:

    “French firefighters ‘not sure’ if Notre Dame fire can be stopped”

    WTF! All Twin Towers mustr go!!! Jesus Christ.

    https://www.rt.com/news/456623-notre-dame-renovations-deterioration/

    The peak of the church had been undergoing a major €6 million renovation — and the fire is thought to be linked to the revamp, French media reported, quoting the Paris fire brigade.

    Structural problems have plagued the old building for years, including dangerously eroded stone, broken gargoyles and fallen balustrades, André Finot, the cathedral’s spokesperson, told the New York Times in 2017. Finot told the newspaper the situation was “spinning out of control.”

    The Friends of Notre Dame foundation has even been seeking to raise a massive €150 million ($180 million) from French citizens and Francophiles in the US to help foot the bill for a major facelift. The French government itself allocates about €2 million each year for upkeep of the building.

    Well, Russia managed to burn a Moscow library some time back, in 2015

    Fire in major Russian library destroys 1m historic documents: Leading scientist speaks of cultural ‘Chernobyl’ after blaze ravages 2,000 sq metres of Moscow institute holding papers dating to 16th century

    One would think officials would rather perform organizational kabuki than do their jobs. One would not be wrong.

  43. @Dacian Julien Soros
    AFAIK the French didn't need it anymore.

    Despite all the right-wing nonsense, such as scrapping the wealth tax, LREM, led by a former "Socialist", is set to win European elections. Moreover, their elections attract 80% of adults, in contrast to US, where maybe 40% feel stupid enough to validate Trump or Clinton.

    And they were about to switch from right-wing Jew Sarko to "left-wing" Jew DSK. Who needs Christians?

    Just last week, a powerless May had Macron do what she wanted.

    It's about time to delete France.

    Maybe the cathedral herself has some sentience and decided that there was no longer a place for her in the former France. Why continue to exist as an little more than an attraction for art aficionados and tourists who want to gape at her glories? When she is no longer fulfilling her role as a religious center? When the country around her is being overrun by the people Charles Martel fought to repel? When the race who built her no longer cares about religion or it’s own heritage and is heading for replacement? Better to let herself burn than be converted to a mosque.

    • Agree: fish, Republic
    • Replies: @El Dato
    This randomly moves me to re-read Greg Bear's Petra

    "God is dead, God is dead .
    . . . Perdition! When God dies, you'll know it."
    -Confessions of St. Argentine

    As near as I can discover, Mortdieu occurred seventy-seven years ago. Learned sons of pure flesh deny that magic was set loose, or even that the Alternate had gained supreme power. But few people could deny that God, as such, had died.

    All the hinges of our once-great universe fell apart, the axis tilted, cosmic doors swung shut, and the rules of existence lost their foundations. I have heard wise men speak of the slow decline, have heard them speculate on the reasons, the process. Where human thought was strong, reality's sudden quaking was reduced to a tremor. Where human thought was weak, reality disappeared completely, swallowed by chaos.

    ...

    Legend has it that it was the arch existentialist Jansard -- crucifier of the beloved St. Argentine -- who, realizing his error, discovered that mind and thought could calm the foaming sea of reality.

    Most humans were entirely too irrational to begin with. Whole nations vanished or were turned into incomprehensible whirlpools of misery and depravity.

    It is said that certain universities, libraries, and museums survived, but to this day we have little contact with them.

    Our Cathedral survived. Rationality in this neighborhood, however, had weakened some centuries before Mortdieu, replaced only by a kind of rote. The Cathedral suffered. Survivors - clergy and staff, worshipers seeking sanctuary - had wretched visions, dreamed wretched dreams. They saw the stone ornaments of the great church come alive. With someone to see and believe, in a universe lacking any other foundation, my ancestors shook off stone and became flesh. Centuries of rock celibacy weighed upon them. Forty-nine nuns who had sought shelter in the Cathedral were discovered and were not entirely loath, for (so the coarser versions of the tale go) Mortdieu had had a surprising aphrodisiacal effect on the faithful. Conjugation took place. No definite
    gestation period has been established, because at that time the great stone wheel had not been set twisting back and forth to count the days. Nor had Kronos been appointed to the chair, to watch over the wheel and provide a baseline for everyday activities. But flesh did not reject stone, and there came into being the sons and daughters of flesh and stone, including me.

    Those who had fornicated with the gargoyles and animals were cast out to raise their monstrous young in the highest hidden recesses. Those who had accepted the embraces of the stone saints and other human figures were less abused but were still banished to the upper reaches. A wooden scaffold was erected, dividing the great nave into two levels. A canvas drop cloth was fastened over the scaffold, to prevent offal from raining down, and on the second level of the Cathedral the more human sons of stone and flesh set about creating a new life.

    I'm an ugly son of stone and flesh; there's no denying it. I don't remember my mother. It's possible she abandoned me shortly after my birth. More than likely she is dead. My father - ugly, beaked, half-winged thing, if he resembles his son - I have never seen.

     

    , @Diversity Heretic
    Brilliant, sir! Absolutely brilliant! Even if the cause is a construction accident, the destruction of Notre Dame de Paris is a symbol of a Europe that is rapidly ceasing to exist.
    , @Yak-15
    I like how the NYT was able to find a crying Muslim to interview.

    I look forward to the new interfaith unity temple that happens to only give Islamic sermons to be built.
  44. I think it is sabotage, but not by Muslims. Likely an inside operation like 9/11. Or organized by Macron to deflate protests.

    Did anyone notice that Facebook was down yesterday almost all over the world, just like before the NZ attacks?

    Ok, ok, I will wear again my tinfoil hat, and go back to comment on the Moon Hoax article. 😉

    But seriously, this looks like it was planned.

    • Replies: @Gary
    You hit the nail on the head. Cultural Marxists trying to save Macron
  45. St Denis is the ultimate target for vandalism, seeing that so many kings are buried there. Including Charles Martel.

    • Replies: @DFH
    Technically not a king.

    I apologise and pre-emptively disavow this post, but I had to satisfy my inner pedant.
    , @Kylie
    I don't think our usual suspects would decide on a target that subtly--or that ineffectively. You don't really think torching St. Denis would have the same impact on the West as torching Notre Dame, do you?
  46. I agree that a Church that is no longer frequented by the faithful and is just a secular touristic attraction, was dead long ago, so in the end, Notre Dame had already “burned” much before.

    If Christianity goes, so goes Europe.

    We are witnessing something similar to the collapse of the Roman Empire, in real time.

    Only, what follows may be even worse.

    • Replies: @brandybranch
    it will be....
  47. @Bill Jones
    I hear he's not covering himself with glory via his tweets.

    Trump started the day giving advice to Boeing on branding then moved on to giving the French advice on putting out the fire. Then there’s the Tiger Woods stuff. Cringe.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    Save your cringing for the snobs. Trump stayed with Tiger when he was down. If you can’t appreciate that I cringe for you.
  48. @Cortes
    Fires happen, even in great historic buildings. Within my lifetime I recall blazes in York Minster and Windsor Castle.

    ND will be restored.

    And we can console ourselves with the knowledge that the chief fire officer in Paris was close enough to be able to take immediate action:

    “The bells, Esmeralda! The bells!”

    Cortes, I like your comments, but Notre Dame would have to be replicated, not restored,structurally a total loss.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Cortes, I like your comments, but Notre Dame would have to be replicated, not restored,structurally a total loss.
     
    Würzburg's cathedral was destroyed by terrorism, but it's back now.


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Würzburg_Cathedral
    , @PhysicistDave
    Buffalo Joe wrote

    :Cortes, I like your comments, but Notre Dame would have to be replicated, not restored,structurally a total loss.
     
    The news reports say most of the masonry still stands; the spire is gone, but the towers stand.

    France will restore it. They have no choice.

    It may take a long time.
  49. @peterike
    "Civilization" is still the best television documentary ever. Just brilliant.

    Meanwhile, the loss of Notre Dame is a horrendous. But given current trends, in 20 or 30 more years, the demolition of the great cathedrals in France, Germany, England and a few others will be government policy.

    No. They will be repurposed as mosques, as per government policy. And Islamic twitter is full of happy emojis today about this fire.

  50. @Desiderius
    The virtue of prosperity, is temperance; the virtue of adversity, is fortitude; which in morals is the more heroical virtue. Prosperity is the blessing of the Old Testament; adversity is the blessing of the New; which carrieth the greater benediction, and the clearer revelation of God’s favor. Yet even in the Old Testament, if you listen to David’s harp, you shall hear as many hearse-like airs as carols; and the pencil of the Holy Ghost hath labored more in describing the afflictions of Job, than the felicities of Solomon. Prosperity is not without many fears and distastes; and adversity is not without comforts and hopes. We see in needle-works and embroideries, it is more pleasing to have a lively work, upon a sad and solemn ground, than to have a dark and melancholy work, upon a lightsome ground: judge therefore of the pleasure of the heart, by the pleasure of the eye. Certainly virtue is like precious odors, most fragrant when they are incensed, or crushed: for prosperity doth best discover vice, but adversity doth best discover virtue.

    - Bacon

    Desi, thank you for posting this.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    Steve’s choice of response is indeed a lively work upon a sad and solemn ground.

    Sublimely appropriate.
  51. • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    jim, Thanks, but only black churches in America warrant MSN coverage.
  52. @Cortes
    Fires happen, even in great historic buildings. Within my lifetime I recall blazes in York Minster and Windsor Castle.

    ND will be restored.

    And we can console ourselves with the knowledge that the chief fire officer in Paris was close enough to be able to take immediate action:

    “The bells, Esmeralda! The bells!”

    Disney’s Clopin:

    Morning in Paris, the city awakes

    To the bells of Notre Dame

    The fisherman fishes, the bakerman bakes

    To the bells of Notre Dame

    To the big bells as loud as the thunder

    To the little bells soft as a psalm

    And some say the soul of the city’s the toll of the bells

    The bells of Notre Dame.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    wren, thank you, but Obama said the greatest sound in the world was the Muslim call to prayers.
  53. The destruction of Notre Dame is a horrendous historic loss. It does appear a lack of care and situational awareness are to blame for the tragedy.

  54. @Bill Jones
    I hear he's not covering himself with glory via his tweets.

    He was trying to give them fire-fighting advice. Giving advice is how boomerdads ( all dads, really) show they care. It’s absurd and unusual but so are the times.

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
    I'd give President Trump the benefit of the doubt in this instance. A billionaire real-estate developer who has built, bought out, or franchised his name to numerous high-rise buildings probably has had some exposure to the subject of fire-fighting approaches to higher elevation fires.
  55. @Harry Baldwin
    Shepard Smith is one of a number of liberals who have key positions on the supposedly conservative Fox channel. Swamp creature Chris Wallace is another.

    Totally agree. Smith is despicable in so many ways.

  56. @Reg Cæsar
    St Denis is the ultimate target for vandalism, seeing that so many kings are buried there. Including Charles Martel.

    Technically not a king.

    I apologise and pre-emptively disavow this post, but I had to satisfy my inner pedant.

  57. @Buffalo Joe
    Desi, thank you for posting this.

    Steve’s choice of response is indeed a lively work upon a sad and solemn ground.

    Sublimely appropriate.

  58. @Ghost of Bull Moose
    I always check the date when "some people did something" as Ilhan Omar so cleverly puts it.

    April 15, same date as the Boston Marathon bombings.

    I don't know if there's a connection, my knowledge of great Islamic victories or martyrdoms is scant. The Islamists know every event and every date, though. Every time they 'do something' you can be sure it's connected to some grudge from the middle ages or earlier.

    Maybe it's an 'accident.' But if it isn't it's going to be harder than usual to memory-hole the arson of one of the defining pieces of architecture in Christendom.

    Maybe they'll blame the Yellow Vests and put the iron fist down.

    The Islamists know every event and every date, though.

    On their calendar. Our April 15th would be a different date every year.

    I don’t know about the French, but their Latin cousins are fond of being streets after dates.

    https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/direction-signs-for-iconic-avenues-in-buenos-aires-picture-id1127311728

    Whereas we…

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gropecunt_Lane

    • Replies: @Ghost of Bull Moose

    On their calendar. Our April 15th would be a different date every year.
     
    Yes, but terrorism is for our edification. That's why they attacked Benghazi on September 11.
  59. I recall Bush Sr. saying, when asked why he didn’t go ahead and invade Iraq, “I’m not putting our troops in the middle of a country that is still fighting disputes that began a thousand years ago!”

    That reminded me of some French history. Back in 732 AD, when they stopped an historic Muslim scourge intended to islamify the whole of Western Europe. If the French couldn’t handle them, Western Europe was over. For good. After some horrific battles, some involving french soldiers killing scores of Muslims with their bare hands, the french soldiers waded into the semi-defeated Muslim morass, and slayed their commander. The Muslim attack fell apart, and the French chased their sandy asses all the way back to Spain.

    The French are the only reason all Americans aren’t all primarily speaking Farsi right now.

    Recalling Bush Sr.’s remark… I wonder if the Muslims are still pissed off about that?

    • Replies: @europeasant
    "The French are the only reason all Americans aren’t all primarily speaking Farsi right now"

    You forgot to mention Vienna 1683.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vienna

    The invasion in 1683 was more serious. The Moslems brought an army of at least 100,000 for the invasion plus camp followers numbering at least 100,000.
  60. I visited Notre Dame years ago and took Communion there, building was splendiferous and awe inspiring. There is a weekly TV show called “Ancient Aliens” where they contribute the construction of every notable edifice, such as Ankor Wats or Machu Pichu, to Aliens. But never the cathedrals of Europe. The Cathredal across the European Continent are, to me, the greatest example of European glory. So sad to see Notre Dame fall.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    Looking like fall is an overstatement. Heroic work by French firefighters and their brave chaplain.
  61. @peterike
    "Civilization" is still the best television documentary ever. Just brilliant.

    Meanwhile, the loss of Notre Dame is a horrendous. But given current trends, in 20 or 30 more years, the demolition of the great cathedrals in France, Germany, England and a few others will be government policy.

    Muslims don’t demolish what they can use!

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=Qax5YGqcQcM

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Anon, there is an area of Buffalo called Polonia. Magnificent Catholic churches were walking distance apart. Today I could take you to three that are now mosques, stripped of all Christian images.
  62. @Alfa158
    Maybe the cathedral herself has some sentience and decided that there was no longer a place for her in the former France. Why continue to exist as an little more than an attraction for art aficionados and tourists who want to gape at her glories? When she is no longer fulfilling her role as a religious center? When the country around her is being overrun by the people Charles Martel fought to repel? When the race who built her no longer cares about religion or it’s own heritage and is heading for replacement? Better to let herself burn than be converted to a mosque.

    This randomly moves me to re-read Greg Bear’s Petra

    “God is dead, God is dead .
    . . . Perdition! When God dies, you’ll know it.”
    -Confessions of St. Argentine

    As near as I can discover, Mortdieu occurred seventy-seven years ago. Learned sons of pure flesh deny that magic was set loose, or even that the Alternate had gained supreme power. But few people could deny that God, as such, had died.

    All the hinges of our once-great universe fell apart, the axis tilted, cosmic doors swung shut, and the rules of existence lost their foundations. I have heard wise men speak of the slow decline, have heard them speculate on the reasons, the process. Where human thought was strong, reality’s sudden quaking was reduced to a tremor. Where human thought was weak, reality disappeared completely, swallowed by chaos.

    Legend has it that it was the arch existentialist Jansard — crucifier of the beloved St. Argentine — who, realizing his error, discovered that mind and thought could calm the foaming sea of reality.

    Most humans were entirely too irrational to begin with. Whole nations vanished or were turned into incomprehensible whirlpools of misery and depravity.

    It is said that certain universities, libraries, and museums survived, but to this day we have little contact with them.

    Our Cathedral survived. Rationality in this neighborhood, however, had weakened some centuries before Mortdieu, replaced only by a kind of rote. The Cathedral suffered. Survivors – clergy and staff, worshipers seeking sanctuary – had wretched visions, dreamed wretched dreams. They saw the stone ornaments of the great church come alive. With someone to see and believe, in a universe lacking any other foundation, my ancestors shook off stone and became flesh. Centuries of rock celibacy weighed upon them. Forty-nine nuns who had sought shelter in the Cathedral were discovered and were not entirely loath, for (so the coarser versions of the tale go) Mortdieu had had a surprising aphrodisiacal effect on the faithful. Conjugation took place. No definite
    gestation period has been established, because at that time the great stone wheel had not been set twisting back and forth to count the days. Nor had Kronos been appointed to the chair, to watch over the wheel and provide a baseline for everyday activities. But flesh did not reject stone, and there came into being the sons and daughters of flesh and stone, including me.

    Those who had fornicated with the gargoyles and animals were cast out to raise their monstrous young in the highest hidden recesses. Those who had accepted the embraces of the stone saints and other human figures were less abused but were still banished to the upper reaches. A wooden scaffold was erected, dividing the great nave into two levels. A canvas drop cloth was fastened over the scaffold, to prevent offal from raining down, and on the second level of the Cathedral the more human sons of stone and flesh set about creating a new life.

    I’m an ugly son of stone and flesh; there’s no denying it. I don’t remember my mother. It’s possible she abandoned me shortly after my birth. More than likely she is dead. My father – ugly, beaked, half-winged thing, if he resembles his son – I have never seen.

  63. @istevefan
    I've heard them say it was probably due to renovation work. Others familiar with such work say there are always guys on fire watch with extinguishers and such whenever work is being down that could cause a fire. Additionally they say a fire watch is kept 2 or more hours after such work is done to ensure smoldering embers don't ignite. Given how anal the Euros are on safety issues, e.g. mandatory yellow vest in car, I doubt this was a construction mistake.

    But given the nature of the ruling class, do you really think they will report the truth even if was terrorism?

    Outside of that, I am very upset at what was lost. It's unreal to think Notre Dame survived the anti-Christian revolution and both world wars. This loss is symbolic of our times.

    This is the final culmination of the anti-Christian revolution. It is fittingly symbolic of the West today.

    Norte Dame has been a tourist trap for generations inspiring no more thought of the sacrifice of Christ than a visit to Stonehenge would.

    Headtbreaking but not surprising really

  64. @Alfa158
    Maybe the cathedral herself has some sentience and decided that there was no longer a place for her in the former France. Why continue to exist as an little more than an attraction for art aficionados and tourists who want to gape at her glories? When she is no longer fulfilling her role as a religious center? When the country around her is being overrun by the people Charles Martel fought to repel? When the race who built her no longer cares about religion or it’s own heritage and is heading for replacement? Better to let herself burn than be converted to a mosque.

    Brilliant, sir! Absolutely brilliant! Even if the cause is a construction accident, the destruction of Notre Dame de Paris is a symbol of a Europe that is rapidly ceasing to exist.

  65. @Buffalo Joe
    Cortes, I like your comments, but Notre Dame would have to be replicated, not restored,structurally a total loss.

    Cortes, I like your comments, but Notre Dame would have to be replicated, not restored,structurally a total loss.

    Würzburg’s cathedral was destroyed by terrorism, but it’s back now.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Würzburg_Cathedral

    • Replies: @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    The relics that must have burnt are not replaceable. Neither is the artwork.

    Moreover, the deeply vibrant religious culture that gave birth to Notre Dame is now dead. As far as I know, they did not even offer the traditional Tridentine Mass at the cathedral. Instead they offered the banal Novus Ordo Mass, the disastrous fruits of which are evident to all thinking persons.

    Any piece of art reflects its period of creation. The world of 800 years ago is not replaceable without a thorough-going Catholic religious counter-revolution to strike at the evils of the modern world and resist them with the social reign of Christ as it existed, relatively speaking, in that time. Absent that, no, Notre Dame Cathedral cannot be replaced!

    It is the preposterous arrogance of modern man to suggest that he can rebuild such a church when his attitude towards God and life is in opposition to the spirit of Christendom. This is something the mere "secular" nationalist can never understand. He cannot duplicate full beauty. Modern "secular" Westerners are not really Western, and never can be.

    Notre Dame Cathedral was built to be a CHURCH, not a MUSEUM piece, which is what the modernist "Catholic" attitude produces: it produces an empty husk!

    The Catholic Faith, though, like its savior, will be resurrected. But there will be many dark days like this - and darker still - before this time of scourging comes to a merciful end.

    , @WowJustWow
    Chartres nearly suffered the same fate.

    All the glass from the cathedral was removed in 1939 just before the Germans invaded France, and it was cleaned after the War and releaded before replacing. While the city suffered heavy damage by bombing in the course of World War II, the cathedral was spared by an American Army officer who challenged the order to destroy it.

    Colonel Welborn Barton Griffith, Jr. questioned the strategy of destroying the cathedral and volunteered to go behind enemy lines to find out whether the German Army was occupying the cathedral and using it as an observation post. With a single enlisted soldier to assist, Griffith proceeded to the cathedral and confirmed that the Germans were not using it. After he returned from his reconnaissance, he reported that the cathedral was clear of enemy troops. The order to destroy the cathedral was withdrawn, and the Allies later liberated the area. Griffith was killed in action later that day on 16 August 1944, in the town of Leves, near Chartres.
     
    Still, here's Orson Welles with the grey pill:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p67d9F9nW2Y
  66. • Replies: @Clifford Brown
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQUOl8VnudA
  67. Even if the Macron government uncovers it was “arson-by-Muslim”, it will never admit it. It would fear an adverse reaction against the Muslim invaders (a.k.a. Muslim immigrants) bent on destroying Western Civilization. Talk about (a lack of) courage! Sweden is experiencing a similar problem … with a similar outcome. As for Great Britain, it’s already a diverse, multicultural corpse.

    What Macron and his globalist supporters don’t realize is that “all of France is on fire”. The “fire” in Notre Dame is a parody of France. When that “fire” is over, I suspect the end result will be similar to Notre Dame … an empty shell representing the skeletal remains of France as a nation.

  68. @JimB
    No doubt the restoration crews working on Notre Dame are filled with low wage immigrants given that the government seems to be doing repairs on the cheap. Also, firefighter crews in Paris are loaded with Muslims. I can’t help thinking the fire was either due to malice or low IQ, and that the slow response of the Parisian fire department is the result of indifference. Perhaps this is the fate of all Catholic monuments in Europe if Islamification isn’t stopped.

    I can’t help thinking the fire was either due to malice or low IQ, and that the slow response of the Parisian fire department is the result of indifference.

    And any explanatory angle you care to take on this comes back to the ongoing decay and foolishness of the West.

  69. @Reg Cæsar

    Even if it was Muslim arson
     
    Mohammedans have to be careful around Jesus, who is a prophet, albeit a dwarf prophet, to them. I doubt the fecal treatment given to other French churches of late was their work, unless there are MENA Sartres among them.

    Christians who have it in for Jews don't attack Isaiah or Jeremiah.

    JimB's hypothesis of low wages and standards appears to be the most likely.

    I'm also tempted to channel Jerry Falwell and accept this as an Act of God. The best way to protect churches is to attend them.

    Ultimately everything is an act of God no matter how insignificant. A sparrow doesn’t fall from the sky outside His will. What are we to learn from is perhaps the more urgent question.

  70. @Bob Smith of Suburbia
    Emma Watson was born in Paris on this day 29 years ago.

    FWIW

    Henry James was born in New York City on this day 176 tears ago.

    Of Notre Dame, he writes in The Ambassadors, “He[Strether] trod the long dim nave, sat in the splendid choir, paused before the cluttered chapels of the east end, and the mighty monument laid upon him its spell.”

    • Agree: Harry Baldwin
  71. …and when “it would take decadesd to reconstruct it” – it would be done to the extent of being politically correct tourist attraction. Westeing money on anoything above it would hardly be done.
    Thinking practically, it would be better to have reconstruciton never completed. Half-destroyed place would attract tourists much better than a perfect remake.

    I was thinking about “the Mosque of Notre Dame” – the going down there was much more noble. But, in reality Notre Dame was not granted even that.

  72. @Harry Baldwin
    In September 2016, Islamic terrorists made a botched attempt to blow up Notre Dame with a car bomb. I hope this isn't a follow up attack, as the 2001 attack on the World Trade Center followed the botched one in 1993. At the moment the news is attributing the fire to restoration work being done.

    I visited Notre Dame for the first time two months ago. Generally, sightseeing doesn't do that much for me, but Notre Dame moved me profoundly. I'm a thoroughly lapsed Catholic, so it wasn't that, and I don't think it was just its age, its beauty, or its historical significance. The place had an aura about it, some kind of spiritual power. I'm glad I saw--and felt--it. Perhaps it can be restored.

    Pray the rosary, lapsed Catholic, and save your soul!

  73. @Reg Cæsar

    Cortes, I like your comments, but Notre Dame would have to be replicated, not restored,structurally a total loss.
     
    Würzburg's cathedral was destroyed by terrorism, but it's back now.


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Würzburg_Cathedral

    The relics that must have burnt are not replaceable. Neither is the artwork.

    Moreover, the deeply vibrant religious culture that gave birth to Notre Dame is now dead. As far as I know, they did not even offer the traditional Tridentine Mass at the cathedral. Instead they offered the banal Novus Ordo Mass, the disastrous fruits of which are evident to all thinking persons.

    Any piece of art reflects its period of creation. The world of 800 years ago is not replaceable without a thorough-going Catholic religious counter-revolution to strike at the evils of the modern world and resist them with the social reign of Christ as it existed, relatively speaking, in that time. Absent that, no, Notre Dame Cathedral cannot be replaced!

    It is the preposterous arrogance of modern man to suggest that he can rebuild such a church when his attitude towards God and life is in opposition to the spirit of Christendom. This is something the mere “secular” nationalist can never understand. He cannot duplicate full beauty. Modern “secular” Westerners are not really Western, and never can be.

    Notre Dame Cathedral was built to be a CHURCH, not a MUSEUM piece, which is what the modernist “Catholic” attitude produces: it produces an empty husk!

    The Catholic Faith, though, like its savior, will be resurrected. But there will be many dark days like this – and darker still – before this time of scourging comes to a merciful end.

    • Agree: ChrisZ
    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    Although your comment is basically correct, I am able to correct you on one point: the old rite is celebrated there at least once a year at the high altar as the opening ceremony of the Paris-Chartres Pilgrimage. This is always on the Saturday before Pentecost, so this year a new venue will have to be found and I am certain that an even stronger sense that the pilgrimage exists to foster the restoration of Catholic France will be present in everyone's minds.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    As far as I know, they did not even offer the traditional Tridentine Mass at the cathedral. Instead they offered the banal Novus Ordo Mass, the disastrous fruits of which are evident to all thinking persons.
     
    For many years, the Church of St Agnes in St Paul celebrated Latin High Mass every week, half of them with orchestra (Beethoven, Schubert, Haydn, Gounod, etc.) and half with Gregorian chant. Liturgy was in Latin, too, and the priest faced the crucifix, not the congregation.

    The most surprising thing was that-- and I confirmed it with the pastor-- these was entirely Novus Ordo. Tridentine Masses still needed a dispensation, and one other church in the archdiocese had that, but not St Agnes.

    I think they've returned to Tridentine in the past decade, but you really can't tell the difference without a scorecard. So you could get pretty close to Tridentine under Novus Ordo, if you knew, and cared, what you were doing.

    The church was built by Austrian immigrants. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are depicted on the ceiling as blond and blue-eyed.
    , @dwb
    It is terrible to see the historic cathedral destroyed.

    From the perspective of a mass-attending Catholic, the most critical things to be saved were saved - the Crown of Thorns, a piece of the cross itself, and nails used in the crucifixion that Louis IX (Saint-Louis) retrieved from Constantinople - are among the most sacred relics of our faith. They apparently have been saved.

    We lived in Paris, and used to go the Notre-Dame often. It is a horrible loss. It makes me incredibly sad to think about it destroyed.

    From the perspective of a member of the faith, the church is a building. According to the Gospel of Saint-Matthew, wherever two believers gather, Jesus is there. Obviously, a holy site is consecrated. All altars in Catholic churches have relics in them. But the building itself is less important than the place. And the faithful who come.

    Recall that Jesus himself came into the world in a humble place for animals, not a grand cathedral.

    The edifice can be rebuilt. It will be.

    It is up to the faithful whether it is a holy place again, not the stonemasons who repair it.
    , @Buffalo Joe
    John, pushing the "Agree" button would not do your comment justice. So well stated my friend.
    , @Simply Simon
    If one is a keen observer of the passing scene he will notice that the fine hand of God makes his presence known in the affairs of man.
    , @Charles Erwin Wilson 3

    the deeply vibrant religious culture that gave birth to Notre Dame is now dead
     
    It is not. There is a remnant: "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." The Scriptures testify against you.

    But then you know this, or you would not write:

    The Catholic Faith, though, like its savior, will be resurrected. But there will be many dark days like this – and darker still – before this time of scourging comes to a merciful end.
     
    Be careful not to succumb to despair. That path is the impulsive response of the Eeyore brigade here. Do not join them. Their shortsightedness is the council of defeat.
  74. @peterike
    "Civilization" is still the best television documentary ever. Just brilliant.

    Meanwhile, the loss of Notre Dame is a horrendous. But given current trends, in 20 or 30 more years, the demolition of the great cathedrals in France, Germany, England and a few others will be government policy.

    It is. It is also spelled with the British “s”. Give the toffs their due.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilisation_(TV_series)

    • Agree: jim jones, Coemgen
    • Replies: @Kratoklastes

    It is also spelled with the British “s”
     
    It's not a 'British' "s", it is the 'Non-US' "s". It is the way the word is properly spelt, and the decision was made by the people who invented the language.

    Like centre, colour, defence, emphasise, grey, haemorrhage, mould, and sulphur.

    Given my druthers there would be no fixed orthography and we would revert to the relative free-for-all situation that existed historically; all that matters is that ideas are transmitted reliably, not that life is made easier for primary school teachers. (Obviously that idea can't extend to keywords in computer languages yet).
  75. @RickinJax
    Thanks for this Steve. Kenneth Clarke is the perfect response.
    Heard Shepherd Smith cut off a French official who mentioned the many churches in France that are desecrated every month. “Sir, sir, we will not allow you to speculate.....”
    Filth

    Re Filth Columnist

    Perhaps we should be grateful that he didn’t say, “Sir, sir, take [or “walk”] that hunch back.”

  76. • Replies: @Dieter Kief

    No one who ever stood before it or within its walls thought he would outlive it.
     
    I understand the emotion but: -

    - Cathedrals, like old towns from the Middle Ages in general, can burn down any day.
    I live in a town with a Cathedral from the Middle Ages - and I lived nearby for a few years in a house named Zum Distel (at the thistle) from 1352, in the Konradi's lane... we spoke lots of time about fire. And old Sacristan Schatz from the Cathedral speaks about fire, whenever he accompanies a group of people into the attic of the Cathedral of Our Beloved Women in Constance.

  77. God has just passed judgement on the French antics designed to frustrate Brexit.

    Great is the way of the Lord.

    • Replies: @stillCARealist
    Pretty good take. The Almighty has his ways and his plans and his timing.

    Don't worry, your country will leave the EU eventually, and then the whole thing will either collapse or whither away on the vine.
  78. This is a horrific cultural loss. Some of the comments speculating that Muslim workers or someone else intentionally set fire to Notre Dame are shameful. Wait for the facts.

    These kinds of accidental fires happen frequently. As an example, see the Chicago Pilgrim Baptist Church below.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilgrim_Baptist_Church

    Here is another church fire on the Southside of Chicago:

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/multiple-alarm-fire-scorches-landmark-chicago-church-shrine-of-christ-the-king-sovereign-priest/

    Notre Dame has a leaded roof, which requires heat to melt the lead when repairing the roof. That might have been the cause. Maybe it was something else. No doubt the construction workers will report what happened on their shift.

    • Replies: @RationalExpressions

    “Some of the comments speculating that Muslim workers or someone else intentionally set fire to Notre Dame are shameful. Wait for the facts.”
     
    Followed by a bunch of blind speculation.
  79. @Reg Cæsar

    No doubt the restoration crews working on Notre Dame are filled with low wage immigrants given that the government seems to be doing repairs on the cheap
     
    This makes the most sense of any explanation. Corners were cut, and this is the price.

    And why is the government-- the city, or the nation?-- doing the repairs? The French haven't turned in awhile, have they?

    Perhap French construction workers who had a bit more wine than they should have with lunch?

    It’s really much too soon to blame this on Muslims. It’s only going to make you look foolish later on for having jumped to conclusions when it turns out that Pierre done it.

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
    Plus - nobody needs to do such a thing. It can simply happen. Bad luck.
    ("Do not set fire to the nobility's mansions / before The Hawk has cried" (old song from the Southern German Peasants War in the 16th-century meaning: Be cold blooded - the more critical the situation, the more so...).
    , @Polynikes
    Or make you look like a fool for missing the obvious.
    , @bored identity
    bored identity strongly believes that, at this point, simply pointing Acckmed's Butter-knife at Reg Caesar is pointless.


    You know why?

    'Cause bored identity not only strongly believes, but also <i.knows that Pierre is plagued by Pierromanic tendencies caused by prolonged exposure to radiation from Crescent,Star,& Black Space Rock:


    https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-3201b6be7b060f31f96cdbae5b7a3599

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Vogel


    Not to mention:

    https://history.yale.edu/people/pierre-islam


    So, Reg's razor is maybe dull, but it's still a razor.
  80. The thing is a man made mountain. The wood parts burn but the stones will remain. The spire was probably unstable and being shored up by wood. The building isn’t going anywhere.

  81. @istevefan
    Good catch. The 15th of March, and now April. And past experience had shown that retaliations aren't limited by geography.

    It’s also Tax Day. Perhaps it was ignited by American anti-tax libertarians. There’s the same amount of evidence as y’all have for pinning it on Muslims.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Whoever they are, they've been doing this for a month. Evidence is never necessary to condemn white supremacism.
    https://twitter.com/PardesSeleh/status/1117851308457725952
    , @216
    The amount of BlackHate (tm) is still sickening

    https://twitter.com/ScottMGreer/status/1117903777401454592
    , @Dr History

    It’s also Tax Day. Perhaps it was ignited by American anti-tax libertarians. There’s the same amount of evidence as y’all have for pinning it on Muslims.
     
    Wrong, since American Libertarians have not staged organized terrorist attacks, recently including one intended to blow up Notre Dame.

    That said, he don’t you consider shutting up, instead of carrying on with your demonstration of arrogance, powered by astonishing ignorance?

    We’ll "get" that you’re a moron, so you really have nothing left to prove here.
    , @istevefan
    https://twitter.com/helenelamm/status/1117857999622529033
    , @Pericles
    "y'all"
  82. In some ways this is a merciful ending of it. The fate of France is certain, Notre Dame was either going to turn into a mosque or at best become a soulless tourist attraction. Had the people who built it seen visions of the future they would have thought this was the best way out.

  83. What odds the Pope comes out in favor of rebuilding in a modern style more inclusive of other religions?

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    His minders are doing their best to keep him under control, but his thoughts will certainly veer in that direction, if he thinks about it at all.
  84. @Bill Jones
    I hear he's not covering himself with glory via his tweets.

    He suggested dropping water from a plane – the French fire service replied that this would damage the structure – they’re probably right but at this point it looks like a total loss so maybe he was right – perhaps a damaged structure is better than no structure. Sometimes it takes some “out of the box” thinking by someone who is not an “expert” to come up with the right answer.

    Our fire hoses perhaps pump a little more than Roman bucket brigades but judging by the results are little more effective. You would think that with all the technology that we have that firefighting would have advanced beyond “pour water on it”. One a structure is fully involved, with current technology the best that they can do seems to keep the fire from spreading to nearby buildings and sometimes not even that. Near where I live a large block square apt. complex under construction caught fire due to a spark from a welder’s torch. Not only did it burn to the ground but it set the neighboring occupied complex on fire and burned that to the ground too.

    • Agree: Desiderius
    • Replies: @Anon
    I wouldn't be surprised that preservation codes made it impossible to kit out Notre Dame with anything that would have made it more fireproof. Installing a sprinkler system might have saved it, but there's no way a rigid French bureaucracy would have allowed it.
    , @snorlax
    Maybe you could cut off oxygen by putting a giant tarp or tent over a structure (like fumigation, but fireproof), optionally pumping in CO2 to speed up the process.
    , @Oddsbodkins
    'You would think that with all the technology that we have that firefighting would have advanced beyond “pour water on it”.'

    I believe there is an advanced firefighting technology called a 'sprinkler'. It will be interesting to see if they were proposed as an upgrade for ND in the past and who decided they were uneccessary.
    , @byrresheim
    Dropping tons of water out of a plane on a structure that was not designed to withstand such an impact is moronic.

    Calling this sort of prima facie nonsense "out-of-the-box-thinking" is moronic, too.

    But then we had to destroy the village in order to save it, de we not?
    , @SF
    I spent some time working on wildland fires back in the day. Heavy Helicopters probably would have been useful. They can spray to some extent rather than just drop a water bomb, and could direct the water much better than a fixed wing aircraft. The fire hoses seemed on the videos from the scene to be not too effective. The building is about 130 feet tall, or was. It has been 17 years since I was there, but it is hard to imagine a building that is mainly stone and concrete burning that intensively. I wouldn't rule out arson.
  85. @Alfa158
    Maybe the cathedral herself has some sentience and decided that there was no longer a place for her in the former France. Why continue to exist as an little more than an attraction for art aficionados and tourists who want to gape at her glories? When she is no longer fulfilling her role as a religious center? When the country around her is being overrun by the people Charles Martel fought to repel? When the race who built her no longer cares about religion or it’s own heritage and is heading for replacement? Better to let herself burn than be converted to a mosque.

    I like how the NYT was able to find a crying Muslim to interview.

    I look forward to the new interfaith unity temple that happens to only give Islamic sermons to be built.

  86. It’s a pity that it’s unlikely that anyone will make use of leftover materials used on this gigantic monument to power and the gigantic parasitic grift that is organised religion. They’ll pump more tax money into it, to continue the grift.

    With all the productivity grifted for its production and maintenance, quite a few starving Parisians of the time could have been fed, housed and clothed.

    Also… despite the fact that Jeebus is a myth, a bunch of people pretend to give a fuck what he thought about things.

    Like all charlatans, the dude spoke in riddles and was inconsistent as fuck… but it’s likely he would have seen that edifice for what it was/is: a huge expensive mechanism for earthly power-projection. He was kinda against huge public displays of piety, right?

    Hard to tell: you’re not supposed to hide your lamp under a bushel (Matthew 5:14–15; Mark 4:21–25; Luke 8:16–18) , but you also shouldn’t make gratuitous public displays of devotion that are seen of men (Matthew 6:5).

    Anyway… as I say – inconsistent. But gilded palaces with statues – probably crosses the line on the “seen of men” thingy.

    Maybe he had his DadSelf do an Act of Yahweh to show the Catholics that he meant “Suffer the little children” to mean less anal rape – although why he would wait until Catholic paedophilia was trending on Twitter, is right up there when it comes to ‘mysterious ways’.

    The site should be put to a useful purpose – turned into apartments or a shopping centre. The same is true for every palace, cathedral and shrine – people are ‘moved’ by the architecture[1], and do not see the underlying crime: use of scarce resources for institutional self-aggrandisement, that could have been used to keep people alive. They are like a beautiful woman with syphilis.

    Eisenhower said the same sort of thing with respect to military spending –

    Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.

    This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick school in more than 30 cities. It is two electric power plants, each serving a town of 60,000 population. It is two fine, fully equipped hospitals. It is some fifty miles of concrete pavement. We pay for a single fighter with a half-million bushels of wheat. We pay for a single destroyer with new homes that could have housed more than 8,000 people…

    The Catholic church (and all churches) should be taxed – in fact since they got most of their property by seizing it from dissidents, the church should be expropriated for fraud (and child molestation).

    [1] on ‘grand’ architecture: have you ever noticed that in most towns of appreciable size, the overwhelming preponderance of imposing architecture is either government buildings, banks, or churches? No surprise that the world’s biggest grifts can afford to build palaces to themselves.

    • Replies: @Pericles
    What a turd.
    , @Buffalo Joe
    Krap, oh did I miss spell that? Today, the construction of a structure such as Notre Dame would be hailed as a wonderous public works project, employing a diverse crew that received specific government training after having learned next to nothing in public schools. I am glad Steve edits on a whim so we can be exposed to the thinking of people like you. Wish you well, really. Oh, and historically Jesus existed so shove the ignorant Jeebus crap.
    , @obwandiyag
    The world sucks. Notre Dame did not. That is all ye need to know.
  87. If you see this man on your building buy insurance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippe_Petit

  88. bored identity strongly believes that Macronophiliacly morbid MSM will let us know in 3,2,1… that the flambéing was a joint terror-enterprise involving domestic Yellow, and Real Fight Red Vests.

    Meanwhile, don’t be surprised if ever compassionate Javanka offers a refuge status, or at least some bell-hoping H-1B visa, to the most vulnerable victim of this latest culturicide:

  89. Anonymous[206] • Disclaimer says:
    @Dr. X
    You gotta wonder if a Muslim construction crew didn't just happen to "accidentally" start the fire... quite coincidental that an iconic Christian church that stood for almost a thousand years just happened to burn a month after the New Zealand thing...

    You gotta wonder if a Muslim construction crew didn’t just happen to “accidentally” start the fire…

    Muslim’s don’t generally attempt to destroy Christian holy sites. Jesus is revered in Islam.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    There was a plot to blow up Barcelona cathedral a few years ago.

    (OTOH, it's such an ugly building maybe it would be a blessing if it burned down).
  90. @Bill Jones
    I hear he's not covering himself with glory via his tweets.

    There is literally nothing that Trump can say that some people won’t declare monstrous.

    • Replies: @Peter Akuleyev
    For the most part when Trump talks he sounds and gestures like a fussy queen from some 1970s movie about aging homosexuals. His tweets sound more like a senile uncle. How he still has defenders is amazing. I suppose it says something about his opponents and the lack of quality leadership in the country.
  91. @Jack D
    It's also Tax Day. Perhaps it was ignited by American anti-tax libertarians. There's the same amount of evidence as y'all have for pinning it on Muslims.

    Whoever they are, they’ve been doing this for a month. Evidence is never necessary to condemn white supremacism.

    • Replies: @South Texas Guy
    Atrocities. Beggars belief. Never been to Notre Dame, but it was ... Sweet Jesu, ... are marvel of the Christian faith, and also, secularly, an architectural masterpiece of the high middle ages.

    I've never seen it in person, and many the French people are by and large shit, but this is at best, gross incompetence, and ... you know. Out and about at bars and such, I heard many people talking about 911 ... this pisses me off and I'll leave it there.
  92. I am betting false flag by islamophobes.

    France is notorious for muslim hatred and pretty much all terrorism and violence is caused by right wing white men.

  93. @Harry Baldwin
    In September 2016, Islamic terrorists made a botched attempt to blow up Notre Dame with a car bomb. I hope this isn't a follow up attack, as the 2001 attack on the World Trade Center followed the botched one in 1993. At the moment the news is attributing the fire to restoration work being done.

    I visited Notre Dame for the first time two months ago. Generally, sightseeing doesn't do that much for me, but Notre Dame moved me profoundly. I'm a thoroughly lapsed Catholic, so it wasn't that, and I don't think it was just its age, its beauty, or its historical significance. The place had an aura about it, some kind of spiritual power. I'm glad I saw--and felt--it. Perhaps it can be restored.

    Nearby, on the same island, is Sainte Chapelle. That will still be there and visible. Go, next time in Paris, during the afternoon. You won’t remember Notre Dame.

  94. @Jack D
    It's also Tax Day. Perhaps it was ignited by American anti-tax libertarians. There's the same amount of evidence as y'all have for pinning it on Muslims.

    The amount of BlackHate ™ is still sickening

  95. @Desiderius
    It is. It is also spelled with the British "s". Give the toffs their due.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilisation_(TV_series)

    It is also spelled with the British “s”

    It’s not a ‘British’ “s”, it is the ‘Non-US’ “s”. It is the way the word is properly spelt, and the decision was made by the people who invented the language.

    Like centre, colour, defence, emphasise, grey, haemorrhage, mould, and sulphur.

    Given my druthers there would be no fixed orthography and we would revert to the relative free-for-all situation that existed historically; all that matters is that ideas are transmitted reliably, not that life is made easier for primary school teachers. (Obviously that idea can’t extend to keywords in computer languages yet).

    • Agree: bored identity
  96. @Reg Cæsar
    St Denis is the ultimate target for vandalism, seeing that so many kings are buried there. Including Charles Martel.

    I don’t think our usual suspects would decide on a target that subtly–or that ineffectively. You don’t really think torching St. Denis would have the same impact on the West as torching Notre Dame, do you?

    • Replies: @Olorin
    I admit having a queasy spell, reflecting on how Notre-Dame had been repeatedly translated from a loved, specific, ancient local site of Christian/matriarchal devotion...

    ...to a veritable globo-infotainment memecluster removed from any sense of the sacred and increasingly identified with the "sanctuary" movement. (And a grotesque translation of the site's holy anima into a pretty gal kidnapped by a misunderstood monster.)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hunchback_of_Notre-Dame#Drama_adaptations

    Even bearing in mind this and other sites' role as infotainment theatres of their various ages, it occurred to me that ending its existence via live globo-infotainment newsmedia seemed evocative of something other than accident.

    Cui bono?

    Has Pope Marx or one of his fancy-hatted administrators or bankers changed the insurance status of the place lately?

    Any of them heavily invested in historic restoration, construction...or in fire suppression technology (such as a restored cathedral will have in eight-figure amounts)?

    Is it true that clots of statuary and paintings had been removed "for restoration" recently? Where are they?

    It's not as though we're unfamiliar with world-renowned landmarks being destroyed live on TV for insurance and political profit, and to shift balances of power. To clear the way for a rebuilding project that would be very difficult if approached organically/normally. To rally people around those major works.

    It's not as though we're unaware of the fact that today is the anniversary of the Boston Marathon bombing and the monthiversary of the Christchurch mosque attack. Nor that it is "holy week" for Catholics.

    It isn't as though we can't think of reasons why all three streams of Abrahamics wouldn't gain from destroying the place.

    It's not as though historic objects/site conservation and restoration hasn't been a total clusterfugg since the early 1970s. Including the already-accomplished destruction of the men and women whose embodied and family-/community-transmitted memory and craft skills created and maintained these objects and sites for millennia.

    That control was systematically moved into the faraway towers of academia, museums, and "philanthropy" as these institutions went full Globalismo. (They use Ford and Rockefeller and UNESCO and bankster bucks to hire low-bid teams of unskilled or semiskilled workers who do in fact do things like kick over lamps in cattle-pens, oops, and burn down cities.)

    No, wait, that was Chicago in 1871.

    Anyway, you get my drift. And if I recall correctly Victor Hugo's novel about the site served as a rallying point for rebuilding the church after the destruction wrought upon it post-1789.

    I realize the faithful care about the relics and such, but my first thought was for this:

    https://mypipeorganhobby.blogspot.com/2008/11/organ-notre-dame-paris.html

    Spiritus.

    (FWIW, word on the street in Peshtigo, Wisconsin, used to be that the 1871 Chicago fire, as well as the concomitant one in that little Wisconsin city and two others, was started deliberately by agents of lumber speculators from Singapore, Michigan. Which clearcut the surrounding forests to rebuild Chicago, Peshtigo, and I forget the other two cities...then became a ghost town eaten by wind and sand. Some developers wanted to build a resort atop the ghost town's dunes a few years back, but I don't know if they got the go-ahead.)

  97. Not all the triumphal tone is coming from Muslims.
    https://postimg.cc/qhJNqkfY
    (The Jews didn’t “manage” without their central Temple: for about a century they gave up in their identity, then they completely restructured their religion.)
    https://postimg.cc/fVvZLYwz/cf749367
    Notice the people calling out this genius are Jewish.

  98. @AndrewR
    On Twitter I'm seeing a lot of wishful thinking that this will finally ignite an anti-Muslim crusade. Even if it was Muslim arson, it's insane to think that this will wake up the same people who shrugged their shoulders at Bataclan/Nice/Hebdo/etc

    In fairness, the last straw isn’t always something of much significance in itself (ie, the cartridge oil that ignited the Sepoy Mutiny). Still, I expect whitey will do exactly what he’s best at: nothing.

    • Replies: @bomag

    I expect whitey will do exactly what he’s best at: nothing.
     
    Well, whitey is actively, and with great vigor,hollowing out his heritage and history.

    As Steve noted here in a different context: "human capital poorly deployed."
  99. I can ‘t say I’m too upset, sadly. When I last visited in 2001, the Church looked heavily restored. At least one side had over 50% new facing stone.
    If it had been Chartres, Rheims or Mont St Michel, that would have been a catastrophe.
    Notre Dame de Paris, only a great loss.

    • Replies: @David
    John Ruskin wrote an essay deploring the extensive repair of Notre Dame "under the wise rule of Napoleon III." He quoted some French guy saying that, sure we're replacing a lot of the statuary but we're recreating it with "mathematical precision." Ruskin says, if I were to tell you I can recreate the Elgin Marbles with mathematical precision but first I have to smash up the originals, would you be happy with that?

    From that essay, on a shelf too high for me to get at right now, I get the impression that much of what we could have seen yesterday morning wasn't from the twelfth century.
  100. Maybe this will spur the French into returning to church, and toss out Macron.

  101. @Jack D
    It's also Tax Day. Perhaps it was ignited by American anti-tax libertarians. There's the same amount of evidence as y'all have for pinning it on Muslims.

    It’s also Tax Day. Perhaps it was ignited by American anti-tax libertarians. There’s the same amount of evidence as y’all have for pinning it on Muslims.

    Wrong, since American Libertarians have not staged organized terrorist attacks, recently including one intended to blow up Notre Dame.

    That said, he don’t you consider shutting up, instead of carrying on with your demonstration of arrogance, powered by astonishing ignorance?

    We’ll “get” that you’re a moron, so you really have nothing left to prove here.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Some kind of white metal head just got arrested for setting 3 black churches on fire in Louisiana. Firebugs are a threat everywhere. Joe Wambaugh wrote a book about a cop in SoCal who had been turned down for the fire department so he set stores on fire, including one my mother shopped at, and then would call in the first report from just down the block.
    , @snorlax

    Wrong, since American Libertarians have not staged organized terrorist attacks
     
    Oklahoma City comes to mind.
  102. @JimB
    No doubt the restoration crews working on Notre Dame are filled with low wage immigrants given that the government seems to be doing repairs on the cheap. Also, firefighter crews in Paris are loaded with Muslims. I can’t help thinking the fire was either due to malice or low IQ, and that the slow response of the Parisian fire department is the result of indifference. Perhaps this is the fate of all Catholic monuments in Europe if Islamification isn’t stopped.

    Are they dancing in the ban-lieu?…….enquiring minds want to know……just making way for the mosque?

  103. anon[389] • Disclaimer says:
    @AndrewR
    On Twitter I'm seeing a lot of wishful thinking that this will finally ignite an anti-Muslim crusade. Even if it was Muslim arson, it's insane to think that this will wake up the same people who shrugged their shoulders at Bataclan/Nice/Hebdo/etc

    I’m waiting for the suggestions that the restored cathedral be multi-faith, but of course with no Christian symbols or imagery, as that might offend people of other faiths. Might as well throw in a minaret while they’re at it. And “Notre Dame du Prophète” has a nice ecumenical ring to it, I think.

  104. @Jack D
    Perhap French construction workers who had a bit more wine than they should have with lunch?

    It's really much too soon to blame this on Muslims. It's only going to make you look foolish later on for having jumped to conclusions when it turns out that Pierre done it.

    Plus – nobody needs to do such a thing. It can simply happen. Bad luck.
    (“Do not set fire to the nobility’s mansions / before The Hawk has cried” (old song from the Southern German Peasants War in the 16th-century meaning: Be cold blooded – the more critical the situation, the more so…).

  105. Quasimodo predicted all this

    • Replies: @Patrick in SC
    "Quasimodo predicted all this."

    A Sopranos fan!

  106. @Jack D
    He suggested dropping water from a plane - the French fire service replied that this would damage the structure - they're probably right but at this point it looks like a total loss so maybe he was right - perhaps a damaged structure is better than no structure. Sometimes it takes some "out of the box" thinking by someone who is not an "expert" to come up with the right answer.

    Our fire hoses perhaps pump a little more than Roman bucket brigades but judging by the results are little more effective. You would think that with all the technology that we have that firefighting would have advanced beyond "pour water on it". One a structure is fully involved, with current technology the best that they can do seems to keep the fire from spreading to nearby buildings and sometimes not even that. Near where I live a large block square apt. complex under construction caught fire due to a spark from a welder's torch. Not only did it burn to the ground but it set the neighboring occupied complex on fire and burned that to the ground too.

    I wouldn’t be surprised that preservation codes made it impossible to kit out Notre Dame with anything that would have made it more fireproof. Installing a sprinkler system might have saved it, but there’s no way a rigid French bureaucracy would have allowed it.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    I went to look at Notre Dame in 1980, but I don't recall the interior so perhaps I didn't go inside. The interior of Chartres cathedral out near Versailles is one of the chief glories of Europe, so it would be a challenge to put in modern pipes without ruining it.
  107. @RickinJax
    Thanks for this Steve. Kenneth Clarke is the perfect response.
    Heard Shepherd Smith cut off a French official who mentioned the many churches in France that are desecrated every month. “Sir, sir, we will not allow you to speculate.....”
    Filth

    Fox News identifies Philippe Karsenty as an elected official but according to Wikipedia he ran for office in 2012 and lost. He seems to be best known for this:

    Muhammad al-Durrah Controversy

    Karsenty came to public attention in 2004, when he was sued for libel by the French television network, France 2, after accusing the network of having broadcast a staged footage of the reported killing of a 12-year-old Palestinian boy, Muhammad al-Durrah, during a gun battle in the Gaza Strip in 2000. France 2 won its case in October 2006, but the judgment was overturned by the Paris Court of Appeal in May 2008, with France 2 refusing to release the full footage taken by their stringer on that day. France 2 has appealed the decision to the Cour de cassation, France’s highest court. In February 2012, the Cour de cassation cancelled the ruling of the Court of Appeal which had acquitted Karsenty. On June 26, 2013, the Paris Court of Appeals once again convicted Karsenty of defamation, and fined him €7000.

  108. @AndrewR
    On Twitter I'm seeing a lot of wishful thinking that this will finally ignite an anti-Muslim crusade. Even if it was Muslim arson, it's insane to think that this will wake up the same people who shrugged their shoulders at Bataclan/Nice/Hebdo/etc

    Everyone on this side of the old Iron Curtain are the kind of “people who shrugged their shoulders at Bataclan/Nice/Hebdo/etc”. It’s just as true of Americans as it is of the French.

    • Replies: @Anon
    True.
  109. Back when I used to make classical music YouTube videos, I made one for Notre Dame de Paris:

    The music is Pérotin’s Sederunt Principes, one of the first two pieces of 4-part polyphony, believed to have been written for performance in the half-finished Cathedral in 1199.

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
    Thanks. Moving.
    , @Desiderius
    The decline of mainline Protestantism is most immediately apparent in their abandonment of polyphonic congregational singing.
    , @larry lurker
    Beautiful.

    I looked up the composer and was hit with this:

    Perotinus Magnus (fl. c. 1200), (Pérotin the Great, Magister Perotinus) was a composer from around the late 12th century, associated with the Notre Dame school of polyphony in Paris and the ars antiqua musical style.
     
    Notre Dame school - Wikipedia:

    The Notre Dame school or the Notre Dame school of polyphony refers to the group of composers working at or near the Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris from about 1160 to 1250, along with the music they produced.
     
    , @PetrusSenex
    Wonderful. Thanks for posting.

    "Sunt lacrimae rerum et mentem mortalia tangunt"
    -Virgil Book I, line 462 of the Aeneid
    , @Bubba
    Thanks! That was wonderful!
  110. @Jack D
    He suggested dropping water from a plane - the French fire service replied that this would damage the structure - they're probably right but at this point it looks like a total loss so maybe he was right - perhaps a damaged structure is better than no structure. Sometimes it takes some "out of the box" thinking by someone who is not an "expert" to come up with the right answer.

    Our fire hoses perhaps pump a little more than Roman bucket brigades but judging by the results are little more effective. You would think that with all the technology that we have that firefighting would have advanced beyond "pour water on it". One a structure is fully involved, with current technology the best that they can do seems to keep the fire from spreading to nearby buildings and sometimes not even that. Near where I live a large block square apt. complex under construction caught fire due to a spark from a welder's torch. Not only did it burn to the ground but it set the neighboring occupied complex on fire and burned that to the ground too.

    Maybe you could cut off oxygen by putting a giant tarp or tent over a structure (like fumigation, but fireproof), optionally pumping in CO2 to speed up the process.

  111. @istevefan
    I've heard them say it was probably due to renovation work. Others familiar with such work say there are always guys on fire watch with extinguishers and such whenever work is being down that could cause a fire. Additionally they say a fire watch is kept 2 or more hours after such work is done to ensure smoldering embers don't ignite. Given how anal the Euros are on safety issues, e.g. mandatory yellow vest in car, I doubt this was a construction mistake.

    But given the nature of the ruling class, do you really think they will report the truth even if was terrorism?

    Outside of that, I am very upset at what was lost. It's unreal to think Notre Dame survived the anti-Christian revolution and both world wars. This loss is symbolic of our times.

    Your point on fire watches are spot on. There should also be prestaged gear for fighting a fire. The standard fire trucks in the city wouldn’t be able to reach the roof either.

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    I was shocked at all the artifacts and works of art still stored inside the building. I hope this is a wake-up call to other such places around Europe.

    Back in the Edo period, fire was such a danger in Japanese cities that townspeople built special fire-resistant out-buildings called kura. Europe needs to adopt this strategy as well. Cathedrals like Notre Dame could be storing their valuables in underground bunkers.
  112. A few strange characters are having mixed feelings about the fire.

    The front entrance to Notre Dame was adorned with an antisemitic allusion but no you're right, I should weep for this devastating loss. pic.twitter.com/O9pt0ge2cg— The Jewish Worker (@JewishWorker) April 15, 2019

  113. People do dumb stuff on construction sites all of the time, and add in that this building had a lot of bone-dry timber and likely little to no fire suppression, it wouldn’t take much to send the entire thing up.

    That said, it does feel like a metaphor – a monument to the genius and culture of our forebears goes up in smoke thanks to incompetent efforts to restore it.

  114. The mayor being a socialist and running the city for half a decade hasn’t proved very effective in doing things right; unless increases in rats, homelessness and graffiti are markers of success. Now this disaster.

  115. @Desiderius
    https://twitter.com/Lileks/status/1117873415451320320

    No one who ever stood before it or within its walls thought he would outlive it.

    I understand the emotion but: –

    – Cathedrals, like old towns from the Middle Ages in general, can burn down any day.
    I live in a town with a Cathedral from the Middle Ages – and I lived nearby for a few years in a house named Zum Distel (at the thistle) from 1352, in the Konradi’s lane… we spoke lots of time about fire. And old Sacristan Schatz from the Cathedral speaks about fire, whenever he accompanies a group of people into the attic of the Cathedral of Our Beloved Women in Constance.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    TIME columnist Christopher J. Hale
    @chrisjollyhale tweeted, “A Jesuit friend in Paris who works in #NotreDame told me cathedral staff said the fire was intentionally set.” and then he deleted the tweet after a few minutes. || #NotreDameFire #mepolitics

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Real_Matty_Mac/status/1117849686147100672
     

    , @Anonymous
    My g-g-g-g-great-grandfather renovated the floor of the women's choir at the Freiburger Muenster. The most interesting aspect of the project was the exhumation of Berthold V, the last of the Zaehringers, from the crypt under the stone floor. The project report indicated he was over 7 feet tall.
  116. @Ghost of Bull Moose
    I always check the date when "some people did something" as Ilhan Omar so cleverly puts it.

    April 15, same date as the Boston Marathon bombings.

    I don't know if there's a connection, my knowledge of great Islamic victories or martyrdoms is scant. The Islamists know every event and every date, though. Every time they 'do something' you can be sure it's connected to some grudge from the middle ages or earlier.

    Maybe it's an 'accident.' But if it isn't it's going to be harder than usual to memory-hole the arson of one of the defining pieces of architecture in Christendom.

    Maybe they'll blame the Yellow Vests and put the iron fist down.

    Every time they ‘do something’ you can be sure it’s connected to some grudge from the middle ages or earlier.

    John Morgan
    @licht_alberich

    In the comments sections of news sites and on social media, Muslims in France are mocking the fire at Notre Dame Cathedral. Seriously, if these people hate their hosts and their culture so much, they need to be sent home.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    The problem is that the rulers of France feel the same as the Muslims, but have some tact.
  117. @Kylie
    I don't think our usual suspects would decide on a target that subtly--or that ineffectively. You don't really think torching St. Denis would have the same impact on the West as torching Notre Dame, do you?

    I admit having a queasy spell, reflecting on how Notre-Dame had been repeatedly translated from a loved, specific, ancient local site of Christian/matriarchal devotion…

    …to a veritable globo-infotainment memecluster removed from any sense of the sacred and increasingly identified with the “sanctuary” movement. (And a grotesque translation of the site’s holy anima into a pretty gal kidnapped by a misunderstood monster.)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hunchback_of_Notre-Dame#Drama_adaptations

    Even bearing in mind this and other sites’ role as infotainment theatres of their various ages, it occurred to me that ending its existence via live globo-infotainment newsmedia seemed evocative of something other than accident.

    Cui bono?

    Has Pope Marx or one of his fancy-hatted administrators or bankers changed the insurance status of the place lately?

    Any of them heavily invested in historic restoration, construction…or in fire suppression technology (such as a restored cathedral will have in eight-figure amounts)?

    Is it true that clots of statuary and paintings had been removed “for restoration” recently? Where are they?

    It’s not as though we’re unfamiliar with world-renowned landmarks being destroyed live on TV for insurance and political profit, and to shift balances of power. To clear the way for a rebuilding project that would be very difficult if approached organically/normally. To rally people around those major works.

    It’s not as though we’re unaware of the fact that today is the anniversary of the Boston Marathon bombing and the monthiversary of the Christchurch mosque attack. Nor that it is “holy week” for Catholics.

    It isn’t as though we can’t think of reasons why all three streams of Abrahamics wouldn’t gain from destroying the place.

    It’s not as though historic objects/site conservation and restoration hasn’t been a total clusterfugg since the early 1970s. Including the already-accomplished destruction of the men and women whose embodied and family-/community-transmitted memory and craft skills created and maintained these objects and sites for millennia.

    That control was systematically moved into the faraway towers of academia, museums, and “philanthropy” as these institutions went full Globalismo. (They use Ford and Rockefeller and UNESCO and bankster bucks to hire low-bid teams of unskilled or semiskilled workers who do in fact do things like kick over lamps in cattle-pens, oops, and burn down cities.)

    No, wait, that was Chicago in 1871.

    Anyway, you get my drift. And if I recall correctly Victor Hugo’s novel about the site served as a rallying point for rebuilding the church after the destruction wrought upon it post-1789.

    I realize the faithful care about the relics and such, but my first thought was for this:

    https://mypipeorganhobby.blogspot.com/2008/11/organ-notre-dame-paris.html

    Spiritus.

    (FWIW, word on the street in Peshtigo, Wisconsin, used to be that the 1871 Chicago fire, as well as the concomitant one in that little Wisconsin city and two others, was started deliberately by agents of lumber speculators from Singapore, Michigan. Which clearcut the surrounding forests to rebuild Chicago, Peshtigo, and I forget the other two cities…then became a ghost town eaten by wind and sand. Some developers wanted to build a resort atop the ghost town’s dunes a few years back, but I don’t know if they got the go-ahead.)

  118. 1. The Reims Cathedral ( Cathédrale Notre-Dame de Reims) is a close replica of the one burned in Paris, so maybe that’s where the tourists will be off to, now.

    2. I’ll bet the ghost of Dominique Venner is wandering thru the ruins.

    • Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard
    Based on the little exposure I had in some Architectural History and Medieval Art courses I would argue that the cathedrals at Reims and Amiens equal, and in some ways surpass Notre-Dame de Paris.

    Personally, I prefer the asymmetry and excess of Reims to the neater, tidier, perhaps even a bit sterile structure at Amiens.
  119. Where did the fire start, and how?

  120. @Harry Baldwin
    In September 2016, Islamic terrorists made a botched attempt to blow up Notre Dame with a car bomb. I hope this isn't a follow up attack, as the 2001 attack on the World Trade Center followed the botched one in 1993. At the moment the news is attributing the fire to restoration work being done.

    I visited Notre Dame for the first time two months ago. Generally, sightseeing doesn't do that much for me, but Notre Dame moved me profoundly. I'm a thoroughly lapsed Catholic, so it wasn't that, and I don't think it was just its age, its beauty, or its historical significance. The place had an aura about it, some kind of spiritual power. I'm glad I saw--and felt--it. Perhaps it can be restored.

    I hate to say it, but to me what’s most impressive is all the work involved, both structural and detailed. It’s ain’t no big-box store.

  121. @Vinteuil
    Back when I used to make classical music YouTube videos, I made one for Notre Dame de Paris:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvJ6xl3l1ek

    The music is Pérotin's Sederunt Principes, one of the first two pieces of 4-part polyphony, believed to have been written for performance in the half-finished Cathedral in 1199.

    Thanks. Moving.

  122. @Jack D
    He suggested dropping water from a plane - the French fire service replied that this would damage the structure - they're probably right but at this point it looks like a total loss so maybe he was right - perhaps a damaged structure is better than no structure. Sometimes it takes some "out of the box" thinking by someone who is not an "expert" to come up with the right answer.

    Our fire hoses perhaps pump a little more than Roman bucket brigades but judging by the results are little more effective. You would think that with all the technology that we have that firefighting would have advanced beyond "pour water on it". One a structure is fully involved, with current technology the best that they can do seems to keep the fire from spreading to nearby buildings and sometimes not even that. Near where I live a large block square apt. complex under construction caught fire due to a spark from a welder's torch. Not only did it burn to the ground but it set the neighboring occupied complex on fire and burned that to the ground too.

    ‘You would think that with all the technology that we have that firefighting would have advanced beyond “pour water on it”.’

    I believe there is an advanced firefighting technology called a ‘sprinkler’. It will be interesting to see if they were proposed as an upgrade for ND in the past and who decided they were uneccessary.

  123. @RickinJax
    Thanks for this Steve. Kenneth Clarke is the perfect response.
    Heard Shepherd Smith cut off a French official who mentioned the many churches in France that are desecrated every month. “Sir, sir, we will not allow you to speculate.....”
    Filth

    “Sir, sir, we will not allow you to speculate…..”

    Yeah, like it’s a court of law rather than just some nightly infotainment.

    Filth!

    AGREED, Rick. (My punctuation and bolding.)

  124. @Reg Cæsar

    Cortes, I like your comments, but Notre Dame would have to be replicated, not restored,structurally a total loss.
     
    Würzburg's cathedral was destroyed by terrorism, but it's back now.


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Würzburg_Cathedral

    Chartres nearly suffered the same fate.

    All the glass from the cathedral was removed in 1939 just before the Germans invaded France, and it was cleaned after the War and releaded before replacing. While the city suffered heavy damage by bombing in the course of World War II, the cathedral was spared by an American Army officer who challenged the order to destroy it.

    Colonel Welborn Barton Griffith, Jr. questioned the strategy of destroying the cathedral and volunteered to go behind enemy lines to find out whether the German Army was occupying the cathedral and using it as an observation post. With a single enlisted soldier to assist, Griffith proceeded to the cathedral and confirmed that the Germans were not using it. After he returned from his reconnaissance, he reported that the cathedral was clear of enemy troops. The order to destroy the cathedral was withdrawn, and the Allies later liberated the area. Griffith was killed in action later that day on 16 August 1944, in the town of Leves, near Chartres.

    Still, here’s Orson Welles with the grey pill:

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    Henry Adams' Mont-St. Michel & Chartres is a good book and might be a comforting read at this time.
  125. @Vinteuil
    Back when I used to make classical music YouTube videos, I made one for Notre Dame de Paris:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvJ6xl3l1ek

    The music is Pérotin's Sederunt Principes, one of the first two pieces of 4-part polyphony, believed to have been written for performance in the half-finished Cathedral in 1199.

    The decline of mainline Protestantism is most immediately apparent in their abandonment of polyphonic congregational singing.

  126. A Danish anon claims that Muslims in Denmark are now rioting in response to a “Fleming Rose” type:

    Rasmus Paludan, edgy free speech activist, went to our multicultural capital and held a Quran throwing competition.

    Muslims from all the nearby kebab shops and paki kiosks went full war mode and shut down around 25% of the city. Some of them were even wearing ISIS clothing:

    https://www.bt.dk/krimi/uromager-iklaedt-toej-med-is-logo-bekymrende-siger-ekspert

    After dozens of fires, riots and 30+ arrests the police had to pull their guns which finally made the Muslim crowd disperse:

    https://ekstrabladet.dk/112/betjente-foelte-sig-truet-trak-vaaben-paa-noerrebro/7597591

    Later “someone” called the police about “youth” jumping on a car. When the police arrived and went to check the car a timed carbomb went off:

    https://newsbreak.dk/by-i-knae-betjente-traekker-pistolerne/

  127. @Hail

    Every time they ‘do something’ you can be sure it’s connected to some grudge from the middle ages or earlier.
     
    https://twitter.com/licht_alberich/status/1117861377614520320

    John Morgan
    @licht_alberich

    In the comments sections of news sites and on social media, Muslims in France are mocking the fire at Notre Dame Cathedral. Seriously, if these people hate their hosts and their culture so much, they need to be sent home.
     

    The problem is that the rulers of France feel the same as the Muslims, but have some tact.

    • Agree: Kylie
  128. @istevefan
    I've heard them say it was probably due to renovation work. Others familiar with such work say there are always guys on fire watch with extinguishers and such whenever work is being down that could cause a fire. Additionally they say a fire watch is kept 2 or more hours after such work is done to ensure smoldering embers don't ignite. Given how anal the Euros are on safety issues, e.g. mandatory yellow vest in car, I doubt this was a construction mistake.

    But given the nature of the ruling class, do you really think they will report the truth even if was terrorism?

    Outside of that, I am very upset at what was lost. It's unreal to think Notre Dame survived the anti-Christian revolution and both world wars. This loss is symbolic of our times.

    Additionally they say a fire watch is kept 2 or more hours after such work is done to ensure smoldering embers don’t ignite.

    Unless they are trained firefighters who know exactly how to stop a fire, then a fire watch in this case is useless. The “fire watch” most likely consisted unskilled and untrained workers who ran away in panic.

    Unfortunately the loss of this masterpiece will soon be forgotten faster than the horrific Batclan and Charlie Hebdo massacres.

  129. @Vinteuil
    Back when I used to make classical music YouTube videos, I made one for Notre Dame de Paris:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvJ6xl3l1ek

    The music is Pérotin's Sederunt Principes, one of the first two pieces of 4-part polyphony, believed to have been written for performance in the half-finished Cathedral in 1199.

    Beautiful.

    I looked up the composer and was hit with this:

    Perotinus Magnus (fl. c. 1200), (Pérotin the Great, Magister Perotinus) was a composer from around the late 12th century, associated with the Notre Dame school of polyphony in Paris and the ars antiqua musical style.

    Notre Dame school – Wikipedia:

    The Notre Dame school or the Notre Dame school of polyphony refers to the group of composers working at or near the Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris from about 1160 to 1250, along with the music they produced.

  130. @Reg Cæsar

    No doubt the restoration crews working on Notre Dame are filled with low wage immigrants given that the government seems to be doing repairs on the cheap
     
    This makes the most sense of any explanation. Corners were cut, and this is the price.

    And why is the government-- the city, or the nation?-- doing the repairs? The French haven't turned in awhile, have they?

    And why is the government– the city, or the nation?– doing the repairs?

    Since 1905, the French state owns the building, operating it on behalf of the Catholic Church. Separation of Church and State means something very different in France than in the US.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    That sweeping legislation of 1905 took the heart out of France, setting the stage for her regular humiliation since.

    First by the Germans, then by the Americans, now by the Muslims.
  131. Pasatiempo on the golf channel – Western Collegiate.

    • Replies: @sanjoaquinsam
    Thanks. Set to record.
  132. @Hodag
    Pasatiempo on the golf channel - Western Collegiate.

    Thanks. Set to record.

  133. A newly released episode trailer for an anti-white CBS drama “The Good Fight” stars a Nigerian actor ‘Nyambi Nyambi’ directly advocating for the unprovoked assault of white people, days after a 5 year old boy was thrown off of a balcony by a black man. The trailer recieved massive backlash on both youtube and twitter after being called out and it was taken down on both platforms by CBS.

    Trailer Links:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20190413194638/https://twitter.com/thegoodfight/status/1116815576347713537

  134. @Cagey Beast
    Why are there people on Twitter now who express sadness at Notre Dame burning when they work to destroy the West in all other circumstances? Aren't our cathedrals metaphorically burning down every day? The fact that self-styled arch-conservatives call the current regime "the Cathedral" shows how the West is gone already.

    Cagey Beast asked:

    Why are there people on Twitter now who express sadness at Notre Dame burning when they work to destroy the West in all other circumstances?

    Becuase, in the end, they know they are members of a civilization, a unique civilization that, for all its flaws, has the most spectacular achievements in human history.

    All the white-bashing, all the attacks on Western civilization, are really just petty little scams aimed at increasing their power, indeed, in some cases, just at getting a bit more of the loot into their own personal bank accounts .

    It is also worth remembering that most people in the rest of the world do not hate the West: they want to be the West.

    The coming together around this tragedy reminds us that sometimes sanity wins out.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Keep telling yourself that.

    https://twitter.com/joshtpm/status/1117909659292037120

    https://twitter.com/SarahSahim/status/1117845002217037825
    , @Moses

    It is also worth remembering that most people in the rest of the world do not hate the West: they want to be the West.
     
    Close Dave, but a bit off.

    Muslims certainly do not want to "become" the West. The West exalts that which they despise -- feminist pussy-hat wearers, open celebration of homosexuality, non-burqa-wearing women, interest-bearing accounts, etc.

    They just want our stuff.

    And they will get it through their ongoing demographic invasion and high reproduction rates.
    , @J.Ross
    If they wanted to be the West then they would be the West in their own countries. They look at meritocracy as misrule and freedom of speech as disrespect.
    , @Mr. Anon

    All the white-bashing, all the attacks on Western civilization, are really just petty little scams aimed at increasing their power, indeed, in some cases, just at getting a bit more of the loot into their own personal bank accounts.
     
    It isn't just motivated by a lust for money or power - although that is part of it. There is also a lot of deep-seated hatred behind it.
  135. Ugh, if t was intentional, the evil destroyers couldn’t have picked a more meticulous, beautifully crafted example of Western, historical architecture to take down. If it wasn’t intentional, who was in charge of guarding that irreplaceable structure? It is not a good idea to put a family-friendly, above-firing babyvacationer, taking tons of time off for the kiddos, in charge of something that cannot be replaced. They can never, ever get that back, and it was the prime, architectural symbol of France, the world’s #1 art nation. Wonder what it would take for France to get serious about protecting its national treasures, rather than just protecting its top 20% of globalist elites and their cheap-labor servants? Wonder what it would take for them to get serious about addressing the roots of their social / economic unrest? Many of those top 20%ers will see a cut in their income from reduced tourism, and those incomparable French architectural and artistic masterpieces are the biggest reason for all of that tourism money.

    How many years of careful design and painstaking, laborious effort did it take to produce that masterpiece?

    Disgusting!!!!

  136. @istevefan
    I've heard them say it was probably due to renovation work. Others familiar with such work say there are always guys on fire watch with extinguishers and such whenever work is being down that could cause a fire. Additionally they say a fire watch is kept 2 or more hours after such work is done to ensure smoldering embers don't ignite. Given how anal the Euros are on safety issues, e.g. mandatory yellow vest in car, I doubt this was a construction mistake.

    But given the nature of the ruling class, do you really think they will report the truth even if was terrorism?

    Outside of that, I am very upset at what was lost. It's unreal to think Notre Dame survived the anti-Christian revolution and both world wars. This loss is symbolic of our times.

    Others familiar with such work say there are always guys on fire watch with extinguishers and such whenever work is being done that could cause a fire. Additionally they say a fire watch is kept 2 or more hours after such work is done to ensure smoldering embers don’t ignite. Given how anal the Euros are on safety issues, e.g. mandatory yellow vest in car, I doubt this was a construction mistake.

    But given the nature of the ruling class, do you really think they will report the truth even if was terrorism?

    I, too, doubt the official story – and for the same reason.

    I’ve spent a lot of time in Europe, over the last few years, and I’ve been constantly impressed by the meticulous care they’re giving to the restoration of their past – whether in Paris, or Ghent, or Firenze.

    I find it hard to believe that this is mere carelessness. I find it easy to believe that The Powers That Be are lying to me.

    • Replies: @TomSchmidt
    There was the fire at La fenice in Venice that was set by contractors who were going to suffer a penalty for late completion. People do stupid things.

    Will every cathedral with a wooden roof start planning to install fire extinguishing pipes tomorrow? This happened within memory in York, so it should not be a surprise.
  137. @Buffalo Joe
    Cortes, I like your comments, but Notre Dame would have to be replicated, not restored,structurally a total loss.

    Buffalo Joe wrote

    :Cortes, I like your comments, but Notre Dame would have to be replicated, not restored,structurally a total loss.

    The news reports say most of the masonry still stands; the spire is gone, but the towers stand.

    France will restore it. They have no choice.

    It may take a long time.

    • Replies: @Polynikes
    What does a Muslim country want with a cathedral?
    , @Reg Cæsar

    France will restore it. They have no choice.
     
    Mrs Macron just announced the finalists will be Daniel Libeskind and Frank Gehry. Cast your vote today!
    , @Chrisnonymous
    My general feeling is that if this were the work of Muslim terrorists, they would have claimed responsibility for it already. I am guessing this some sort of incompetence. However, back maybe 10 years ago, I read an article about a developer in Paris who wanted to tear down Notre Dame and build high-end apartment complexes. His argument was that the cathedral no longer served enough people to justify taking up its valuable real estate. So, it's possible there was something nefarious going on.

    When I was a small boy, my father had a colleague in art history who traveled to Paris every summer just to investigate and document the small features of the facade of Notre Dame. That cathedral must be one of the most-documented architectural structures in the world.

    The Temple of the Golden Pavilion in Japan was burned down in the 1950s. It took 5-6 years for it to be rebuilt, but as far as I know, it was rebuilt to exactly its previous condition. I think the actual construction took about a year, so I assume the Japanese spent about 5 years doing research to make sure they go it right.

    When the World Trade Center reconstruction was first being discussed, one columnist in National Review (this was back before the Defenestration of Derb, when I was still reading it) said the WTC should be rebuilt exactly, but with the addition of Vulcan cannons mounted on the roof. That was pretty much my feeling as well. In the actual event, we ended up with a horrible wound in the center of New York City that (1) capitulates to the perpetrators by letting their destruction stand (so to speak) and (2) invites Americans to keep the feelz going instead of rebuilding and getting back to work. Plus, it took forever to finish.

    I fear the French will not opt for the Japanese or American solutions but will instead do something that combines the ruins from this fire with a modernist or post-modernist building a la I.M. Pei's glass Louvre Pyramid. Imagine Notre Dame's two towers with the Soumaya Museum rising up behind them in place of the former spire!
  138. @Cortes
    Fires happen, even in great historic buildings. Within my lifetime I recall blazes in York Minster and Windsor Castle.

    ND will be restored.

    And we can console ourselves with the knowledge that the chief fire officer in Paris was close enough to be able to take immediate action:

    “The bells, Esmeralda! The bells!”

    Fires happen, even in great historic buildings. Within my lifetime I recall blazes in York Minster and Windsor Castle.

    Just yesterday there was a fire in the basement of New York’s enormous (and unfinished after 120+ years of construction) cathedral of St. John the Divine. It didn’t appear to cause too much fire damage but the smoke was bad enough that the Palm Sunday services had to be held outdoors.

  139. @Houston 1992
    I visited ND 2 weeks ago. The security guards were African-Africans.
    The mood was light and cheerful despite the crowds. The cathedral was awe inspiring, but probably fails to command enough respect to motivate the French "nation" to rededicate and redirect the refugee budget to its rebuilding though

    African Americans in what way?

    • Replies: @Jack D
    He said African -African. Paris is full of African-Africans from the former French colonies.
  140. But good thing we’re so reasonable, we get like reasonableness points or something.

    Screengrab from the TV show “The Good Fight”:

    https://postimg.cc/3002BKLR

  141. @Dieter Kief

    No one who ever stood before it or within its walls thought he would outlive it.
     
    I understand the emotion but: -

    - Cathedrals, like old towns from the Middle Ages in general, can burn down any day.
    I live in a town with a Cathedral from the Middle Ages - and I lived nearby for a few years in a house named Zum Distel (at the thistle) from 1352, in the Konradi's lane... we spoke lots of time about fire. And old Sacristan Schatz from the Cathedral speaks about fire, whenever he accompanies a group of people into the attic of the Cathedral of Our Beloved Women in Constance.

    TIME columnist Christopher J. Hale
    @chrisjollyhale tweeted, “A Jesuit friend in Paris who works in #NotreDame told me cathedral staff said the fire was intentionally set.” and then he deleted the tweet after a few minutes. || #NotreDameFire #mepolitics

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Real_Matty_Mac/status/1117849686147100672

    • Replies: @Jack D
    First reports are often wrong. This is what is called "hearsay" - a friend of a friend told me. Hearsay is not admissible in court because it is so often unreliable. Everyone needs to be patient - the fire has to be out before the arson investigators can go in safely.
  142. @Andy
    somewhat off-topic, here is a reasonable essay on immigration by Andrew Sullivan:

    http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/04/andrew-sullivan-the-opportunity-of-white-anxiety.html?utm_medium=s1&utm_source=tw&utm_campaign=di

    Nothing he wrote was reasonable, but reading daily open borders propaganda makes it appear so.

  143. @Jack D
    Perhap French construction workers who had a bit more wine than they should have with lunch?

    It's really much too soon to blame this on Muslims. It's only going to make you look foolish later on for having jumped to conclusions when it turns out that Pierre done it.

    Or make you look like a fool for missing the obvious.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    A stopped clock is right twice a day. I didn't rule out that it was Muslim arson - it's just that we have no proof right now. Given that it was a construction site, it's much more likely that it was construction related - construction workers burn buildings down all the time.
  144. When I saw online it was under renovation I assumed it was yet another construction laborer who is lazy/stupid/drunk/high screwing up and starting a fire.

    But the amount of defense the left is throwing up has me thinking they think it is Islam means peace.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    The Barcelona terrorists ultimate plan was to blow up Gaudi's Sacred Family cathedral.

    But there are a lot of church arsonists and they have a lot of different motivations. And everybody is saying this wasn't arson.

  145. @Vinteuil

    Others familiar with such work say there are always guys on fire watch with extinguishers and such whenever work is being done that could cause a fire. Additionally they say a fire watch is kept 2 or more hours after such work is done to ensure smoldering embers don’t ignite. Given how anal the Euros are on safety issues, e.g. mandatory yellow vest in car, I doubt this was a construction mistake.

    But given the nature of the ruling class, do you really think they will report the truth even if was terrorism?
     
    I, too, doubt the official story - and for the same reason.

    I've spent a lot of time in Europe, over the last few years, and I've been constantly impressed by the meticulous care they're giving to the restoration of their past - whether in Paris, or Ghent, or Firenze.

    I find it hard to believe that this is mere carelessness. I find it easy to believe that The Powers That Be are lying to me.

    There was the fire at La fenice in Venice that was set by contractors who were going to suffer a penalty for late completion. People do stupid things.

    Will every cathedral with a wooden roof start planning to install fire extinguishing pipes tomorrow? This happened within memory in York, so it should not be a surprise.

  146. @PhysicistDave
    Buffalo Joe wrote

    :Cortes, I like your comments, but Notre Dame would have to be replicated, not restored,structurally a total loss.
     
    The news reports say most of the masonry still stands; the spire is gone, but the towers stand.

    France will restore it. They have no choice.

    It may take a long time.

    What does a Muslim country want with a cathedral?

    • LOL: Chrisnonymous
    • Replies: @nebulafox
    You'd be surprised. Most Muslims have a much higher opinion of Christianity than, say, Jews or most Western atheists do. In Islam, Jesus, while emphatically mortal (because there is no God but God... that was the whole point of the faith from the very beginning in 600s Arabia) is considered a forerunner prophet to Muhammad who will come again at the end days.

    I'd be cautious about jumping to conclusions here.
    , @PhysicistDave
    Polynikes wrote to me:

    What does a Muslim country want with a cathedral?
     
    What use do we have for the Parthenon? Or Stonehenge?

    Most human beings are not completely insane. That includes most Muslims.
    , @Jack D
    You want the cathedral so you can make it into a mosque - see Hagia Sofia in Istanbul. And you want the mosque so you can make it into a cathedral -see the Mosque of Cordoba.
  147. This, from the Turkish Foreign Minister…

    He deleted his previous Tweet, in which he said:

    Friends, stop! If you burn them all down, we can’t turn them into mosques like Hagia Sophia!

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    The fact that the government in charge of the second largest army in NATO openly states that under no circumstances must their co-ethnics in Europe assimilate to Western culture and eulogizes Ottoman conquests in Europe is one of those things that should be more concerning to the powers that be...
  148. @PhysicistDave
    Buffalo Joe wrote

    :Cortes, I like your comments, but Notre Dame would have to be replicated, not restored,structurally a total loss.
     
    The news reports say most of the masonry still stands; the spire is gone, but the towers stand.

    France will restore it. They have no choice.

    It may take a long time.

    France will restore it. They have no choice.

    Mrs Macron just announced the finalists will be Daniel Libeskind and Frank Gehry. Cast your vote today!

    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    ... Daniel Libeskind and Frank Gehry ...

    Yes, the alienu prayer in glass and steel. A stainless steel and glass tumour will be added to Notre Dame and the Argentine anti-Pope will squeal with delight when the drawings are shown to him.
    , @Western
    It will be a fake. It looks like it has been gutted. It will be like a print of a famous painting, a poster of Van Gogh's Sunflowers. It will never be the same. Part of the mystique is knowing that it was built of over 2 centuries without the aide of modern construction techniques.
    , @The Wild Geese Howard

    Mrs Macron just announced the finalists will be Daniel Libeskind and Frank Gehry. Cast your vote today!
     
    Neither!

    H.R. Giger is the only man who can do this job properly!
    , @Clifford Brown
    You took the words right out of my mouth.

    https://media.giphy.com/media/kDBbGF05srPTq/giphy.mp4

    , @Lockean Proviso
    What about Maya Lin?!? Racists!
  149. @Dieter Kief

    No one who ever stood before it or within its walls thought he would outlive it.
     
    I understand the emotion but: -

    - Cathedrals, like old towns from the Middle Ages in general, can burn down any day.
    I live in a town with a Cathedral from the Middle Ages - and I lived nearby for a few years in a house named Zum Distel (at the thistle) from 1352, in the Konradi's lane... we spoke lots of time about fire. And old Sacristan Schatz from the Cathedral speaks about fire, whenever he accompanies a group of people into the attic of the Cathedral of Our Beloved Women in Constance.

    My g-g-g-g-great-grandfather renovated the floor of the women’s choir at the Freiburger Muenster. The most interesting aspect of the project was the exhumation of Berthold V, the last of the Zaehringers, from the crypt under the stone floor. The project report indicated he was over 7 feet tall.

    • Replies: @James Speaks
    Died on the rack?
    , @Old Palo Altan
    My favourite sort of historical tidbit, one with a family connection and a striking fact to bring us right into the middle of history as it was actually lived.
    , @Dieter Kief
    A truly big man this Zähringer. Freiburg flourished under them - as did the Black Forest. The Zähringers understood, that there is no leadership without followers - one reason, they supported the church whenever possible.
    , @Dieter Kief
    A truly big man this Zähringer. Freiburg flourished under them - as did the Black Forest. The Zähringers understood, that there is no leadership without followers - one reason, they supported the church whenever possible.
    , @Dieter Kief
    A truly big man this Zähringer. Freiburg flourished under them - as did the Black Forest. The Zähringers understood, that there is no leadership without followers - one reason, they supported the church whenever possible.
    The Freiburger Cathedral made it into my dreams - into those of them, which entered long time memory. It is an absolute treasure and collective work of art - as is the Augustiner-Museum in Freiburg, btw. - you can't surpass that. Just saw a few Mantegas and Bellinis in Berlin. Great - but not better. Spent some hours there with an absolutely enchanted group of visitors I was lucky enough to show around last autumn.
  150. @Vinteuil
    Back when I used to make classical music YouTube videos, I made one for Notre Dame de Paris:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvJ6xl3l1ek

    The music is Pérotin's Sederunt Principes, one of the first two pieces of 4-part polyphony, believed to have been written for performance in the half-finished Cathedral in 1199.

    Wonderful. Thanks for posting.

    “Sunt lacrimae rerum et mentem mortalia tangunt”
    -Virgil Book I, line 462 of the Aeneid

  151. @WowJustWow
    Chartres nearly suffered the same fate.

    All the glass from the cathedral was removed in 1939 just before the Germans invaded France, and it was cleaned after the War and releaded before replacing. While the city suffered heavy damage by bombing in the course of World War II, the cathedral was spared by an American Army officer who challenged the order to destroy it.

    Colonel Welborn Barton Griffith, Jr. questioned the strategy of destroying the cathedral and volunteered to go behind enemy lines to find out whether the German Army was occupying the cathedral and using it as an observation post. With a single enlisted soldier to assist, Griffith proceeded to the cathedral and confirmed that the Germans were not using it. After he returned from his reconnaissance, he reported that the cathedral was clear of enemy troops. The order to destroy the cathedral was withdrawn, and the Allies later liberated the area. Griffith was killed in action later that day on 16 August 1944, in the town of Leves, near Chartres.
     
    Still, here's Orson Welles with the grey pill:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p67d9F9nW2Y

    Henry Adams’ Mont-St. Michel & Chartres is a good book and might be a comforting read at this time.

  152. @Reg Cæsar

    No doubt the restoration crews working on Notre Dame are filled with low wage immigrants given that the government seems to be doing repairs on the cheap
     
    This makes the most sense of any explanation. Corners were cut, and this is the price.

    And why is the government-- the city, or the nation?-- doing the repairs? The French haven't turned in awhile, have they?

    That should read “tithed”, not “turned”.

    Damned Kindle. It also recognized the names Gehry and Libeskind, but not Macron. What gives in Seattle?

  153. Quelle horreur! Unless it is a disciple of Benjamin Henry Latrobe, then fuggedaboudit.

  154. @Houston 1992
    I visited ND 2 weeks ago. The security guards were African-Africans.
    The mood was light and cheerful despite the crowds. The cathedral was awe inspiring, but probably fails to command enough respect to motivate the French "nation" to rededicate and redirect the refugee budget to its rebuilding though

    I was there a month ago today with the wife and kids and had similar impressions. Really jarring and awful that this has happened.

  155. @Jack D
    Perhap French construction workers who had a bit more wine than they should have with lunch?

    It's really much too soon to blame this on Muslims. It's only going to make you look foolish later on for having jumped to conclusions when it turns out that Pierre done it.

    bored identity strongly believes that, at this point, simply pointing Acckmed’s Butter-knife at Reg Caesar is pointless.

    You know why?

    ‘Cause bored identity not only strongly believes, but also <i.knows that Pierre is plagued by Pierromanic tendencies caused by prolonged exposure to radiation from Crescent,Star,& Black Space Rock:

    https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-3201b6be7b060f31f96cdbae5b7a3599

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Vogel

    Not to mention:

    https://history.yale.edu/people/pierre-islam

    So, Reg’s razor is maybe dull, but it’s still a razor.

  156. @Reg Cæsar

    France will restore it. They have no choice.
     
    Mrs Macron just announced the finalists will be Daniel Libeskind and Frank Gehry. Cast your vote today!

    … Daniel Libeskind and Frank Gehry …

    Yes, the alienu prayer in glass and steel. A stainless steel and glass tumour will be added to Notre Dame and the Argentine anti-Pope will squeal with delight when the drawings are shown to him.

    • LOL: bomag
    • Replies: @ThreeCranes
    Commenter Jack Strocchi said the other day, "Post-modern art is thus the deepest reflection of liberal resentment of our ancestors achievement – it is in essence an act of vandalism."

    Seems to fit (((Libeskind's and Gehry"s))) architecture to a tee.
  157. @Lawyer Guy
    When I saw online it was under renovation I assumed it was yet another construction laborer who is lazy/stupid/drunk/high screwing up and starting a fire.

    But the amount of defense the left is throwing up has me thinking they think it is Islam means peace.

    The Barcelona terrorists ultimate plan was to blow up Gaudi’s Sacred Family cathedral.

    But there are a lot of church arsonists and they have a lot of different motivations. And everybody is saying this wasn’t arson.

    • Replies: @SDMatt
    In Homage To Catalonia Orwell wrote:

    For the first time since I had been in Barcelona I went to have a look at the cathedral - a modern cathedral, and one of the most hideous buildings in the world. It has four crenellated spires exactly the shape of hock bottles. Unlike most of the churches in Barcelona it was not damaged during the revolution - it was spared because of its 'artistic value', people said.

    I think the Anarchists showed bad taste in not blowing it up when they had a chance, though they did hang a red and black banner between its spires.
     
    In fact most of the figures at the Rosary doorway on the Nativity Facade were destroyed and later had to be replaced.

    Gaudi of course is interred in the crypt. The Anarchists liked to dig up clergy and desecrate their bodies. I hope he was left alone.
    , @JimB

    And everybody is saying this wasn’t arson.
     
    Probably just garden variety stupidity, but I still wonder about who was on the employee list of the cheap dick company which caused billions of euros in damage while doing a 5 million euro restoration. Everyone on the payroll should be publicly guillotined.
  158. @Vinteuil
    Back when I used to make classical music YouTube videos, I made one for Notre Dame de Paris:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvJ6xl3l1ek

    The music is Pérotin's Sederunt Principes, one of the first two pieces of 4-part polyphony, believed to have been written for performance in the half-finished Cathedral in 1199.

    Thanks! That was wonderful!

  159. @Anonymous
    My g-g-g-g-great-grandfather renovated the floor of the women's choir at the Freiburger Muenster. The most interesting aspect of the project was the exhumation of Berthold V, the last of the Zaehringers, from the crypt under the stone floor. The project report indicated he was over 7 feet tall.

    Died on the rack?

  160. @Reg Cæsar

    France will restore it. They have no choice.
     
    Mrs Macron just announced the finalists will be Daniel Libeskind and Frank Gehry. Cast your vote today!

    It will be a fake. It looks like it has been gutted. It will be like a print of a famous painting, a poster of Van Gogh’s Sunflowers. It will never be the same. Part of the mystique is knowing that it was built of over 2 centuries without the aide of modern construction techniques.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    They built Notre Dame doing construction arithmetic with Roman numerals. How did they do that?
    , @Alfa158
    The Benedictine monastery at Montecassino was reduced to gravel by the Allies in WW2, but was perfectly rebuilt in a relatively short time to brand new condition including all the sculpture, paintings and gilding . The only problem is that everything looks new and shiny with none of the patina and wear of an old building so it just doesn’t have the same impact of the original, founded 1500 years ago. The Benedictine Abbey in Melk Austria is virtually a copy and you can feel the difference in their antiquity. (The Benedictine monks ran one of the first major franchise operations. When they referred to Golden Arches they weren’t kidding about the gold part.)
    , @bomag
    Best option is to rebuild, even if it is a copy. Not much in this day would be up to replacing a copy of Notre Dame.
    , @Anon
    Apparently it's not as old as people think. The spire, for instance, dates back only 200 years. The rose windows are not original either. It's been repaired and updated in bits and pieces over the centuries. Think Sisteen Chapel, where the ceiling contains almost nothing painted by Michelangelo, although it probably looks nearly the same as when it was originally done.

    New York Magazine currently has a related long piece about the "restoration" of a "Da Vinci" painting that, if authentic, was in such bad shape that it was basically recreated. Since then it's changed hands a few times, topping $400,000.

    In Japan the historical shrines and temples are all made of untreated wood, and they are torn down and rebuilt on a schedule.
  161. What we’re seeing is the 2nd fall of Rome at the hands of the barbarians. Except that this time, the Western Civilization of Europe and America is Rome. The Romans didn’t think something as powerful and warlike as Rome could fall, but it did.

  162. Anon[395] • Disclaimer says:

    off topic

    Muh helots

    Trump Administration’s Refugee Limits Leave Meatpacking Plants Struggling To Find Enough Workers

    Afflictions like this are common in the meatpacking industry, where the rate of injury is 2.5 time higher than the national average, according to the Department of Labor. But refugees like Basar, who’s still learning English, have few options for employment.
    JBS pays a starting wage of $13 to $15 an hour, plus benefits. That’s why, according to a report by the Fiscal Policy Institute, the meatpacking industry has the fifth-highest concentration of refugee workers, behind taxi drivers and truck drivers.

    https://www.kcur.org/post/trump-administration-s-refugee-limits-leave-meatpacking-plants-struggling-find-enough-workers#stream/0

  163. lots of arson attacks on churches in France so i wouldn’t be surprised if this was another

    but more importantly i think it will be believed to be arson even if it isn’t.

    (what effect that will have, if any, who knows)

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Keep in mind that there is a lot of church arson in America and almost none of it is Islamic. Disturbed people who like fire and don't like God do some of it.
  164. Ben Shapiro asked his followers to familiarize themselves with the philosophy behind the cathedral. This drew a harsh response from Josh Marshall, who called Shapiro a buffoonish ignoramus. “While building was just underway, the King despoiled the Jews of France of all their property and expelled them from his kingdom.”

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    That's bad ...
    , @Cagey Beast
    Ben Shapiro was trying to peddle the "Judeo-Christian" nonsense. Josh Marshall was right to call bullshit on it. Of course Marshall doesn't stop to ask whether the King of France was right to expel the Jews because he'd turn into a pillar of self-hating salt or something if he did.
    , @Vinteuil
    Wow - Ben Shapiro isn't sufficiently ethnocentric for Josh Marshall.


    One hardly knows what to say.
    , @Moses
    Notre Dame burned to the ground whatever whatever.

    All I want to know is the history behind Notre Dame factored into Jewish persecution?

    Everyone knows an event is only important given how it affects the Jews.

  165. I find it incredible that there wasn’t a night watchman on duty. Was he asleep?

    Then I read, ‘I visited ND 2 weeks ago. The security guards were African-Africans…’

    Let’s not leap to conclusions, but…

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    I find it incredible that there wasn’t a night watchman on duty. Was he asleep?
     

    He had a chiropractor's appointment.


    https://logosconcarne.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/quasimodo.png

  166. @Polynikes
    What does a Muslim country want with a cathedral?

    You’d be surprised. Most Muslims have a much higher opinion of Christianity than, say, Jews or most Western atheists do. In Islam, Jesus, while emphatically mortal (because there is no God but God… that was the whole point of the faith from the very beginning in 600s Arabia) is considered a forerunner prophet to Muhammad who will come again at the end days.

    I’d be cautious about jumping to conclusions here.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    "Most Muslims" aren't terrorists; by this reasoning, the US military doesn't exist, or is nothing to worry about, seeing as most Americans aren't serving in it.
    , @Polynikes
    "Most" Muslims don't commit acts of terrorism. But a disproportionate of them do, enough so, that mass immigration into the west is a bad idea.

    "most" blacks don't commit murder. But the difference between 3/100k murders and 33/100k is the difference between civilization and the ghetto.

    Why must I be "cautious?" Are the good think police going to arrest me if I'm wrong? Don't be a concern troll.
    , @The Wild Geese Howard

    You’d be surprised. Most Muslims have a much higher opinion of Christianity than, say, Jews or most Western atheists do.
     
    Really?

    Not two weeks ago I had half a dozen Muslims in a so-called "moderate" Muslim country tell me to my face that the Holy Trinity is a, "a joke," followed by much hearty laughing.
    , @istevefan

    Most Muslims have a much higher opinion of Christianity than, say, Jews or most Western atheists do.
     
    Do most muslims want Europe and her New World offshoots to remain Christian? I doubt it. Now, I don't think Jews or atheists really want us to remain Christian either. But the former would have us convert to their faith, while the latter would not.

    Don't get lulled into complacency with muslims. They have had their eyes on Europe since the day they came into being. And truth be told, they have gotten the better of us over the last 1400 years. They occupied parts of Spain for up to 700 years. They occupied parts of SE Europe for almost 500 years. Heck, parts of modern Greece were still under occupation a century ago.

    Add up their slave count and it is estimated they took over 1 million Europeans as slaves in the Mediterranean and about 2 million via Crimea.

    Additionally they radically altered the MENA and removed most of the vestiges of Christianity. While at the same time they have established a couple muslim nations in Europe and were recently granted a third, courtesy of the USAF.

    And don't forget the biggest thing of all, namely, that we have allowed and even welcomed tens of millions of them to settle into Europe and its New World offshoots. We are effectively ceding them territory that they otherwise could not have taken militarily. And there is no let up in sight.

    In a way I hope muslims did burn down Notre Dame. If that is what it takes to end the madness of the immivasion, then so be it.
  167. @Wilkey
    If it is sabotage do you think the government will ever allow the people to know it?

    It's truly hard for me to believe that the restoration of one of the greatest pieces of architecture on the planet was subject to no greater safety protocols than a remodel at a Jiffy Lube.

    If it is sabotage it it may seem silly to hope that the West will finally wake up to the threat of Islam, but people have a way of responding emotionally to attacks on their culture and heritage in a way they don't respond to actual, you know, murder.

    ‘…If it is sabotage it it may seem silly to hope that the West will finally wake up to the threat of Islam,…

    It’s almost pathetic that people think Islam is the threat we face.

    If enough really do think that way, then there is no hope.

  168. @Anonymous

    TIME columnist Christopher J. Hale
    @chrisjollyhale tweeted, “A Jesuit friend in Paris who works in #NotreDame told me cathedral staff said the fire was intentionally set.” and then he deleted the tweet after a few minutes. || #NotreDameFire #mepolitics

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Real_Matty_Mac/status/1117849686147100672
     

    First reports are often wrong. This is what is called “hearsay” – a friend of a friend told me. Hearsay is not admissible in court because it is so often unreliable. Everyone needs to be patient – the fire has to be out before the arson investigators can go in safely.

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    Yes. Well, that's true, but I thought it was very interesting that Aupetit, the archbishop of Paris, made a point of saying that he had received condolences from the chief rabbi of Paris. That seemed like a very pointed rebuke of omission. Perhaps the Catholic hierarchy has some insight in the matter.
    , @FLgeezer
    >First reports are often wrong. This is what is called “hearsay”

    It wouldn't surprise me to find (((them))) blaming it on Iran. That would be sufficient justification to mix it up with the mullahs, which (((they))) have been advocating for for about two decades.
    , @bored identity
    Not under Jack D's watch:



    “Not on my watch,” Shepard Smith said scolding Philippe Karsenty, a French elected official who questioned the “politically correct” narrative that the Notre Dame fire was an accident.

    https://youtu.be/54Y86IFlGHE

    “Even the Nazis didn’t dare destroy it [Notre Dame cathedral],” Karsenty said. “And you have to know for the last year we’ve had churches desecrated each and every week all over France so of course you will hear the story of the politically correct which will tell you it is probably an accident.”

    Shepard Smith immediately cut off Karsenty — “Sir. Sir! Sir! We’re not going to speculate here of the cause of something for which we don’t know.”

    Shepard Smith would not let the guest speak and eventually ended the call saying, “No sir, not here, not on my watch!”

     

    https://twitter.com/OfficeOfMike/status/1117882939797168129?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
    , @a reader

    Hearsay is not admissible in court because it is so often unreliable.
     
    Except at the Nuremberg Trials.
  169. @Anon
    I wouldn't be surprised that preservation codes made it impossible to kit out Notre Dame with anything that would have made it more fireproof. Installing a sprinkler system might have saved it, but there's no way a rigid French bureaucracy would have allowed it.

    I went to look at Notre Dame in 1980, but I don’t recall the interior so perhaps I didn’t go inside. The interior of Chartres cathedral out near Versailles is one of the chief glories of Europe, so it would be a challenge to put in modern pipes without ruining it.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    There is (or was) a "attic" space between the ceiling vaults you see from below and the roofline above. This could be sprinklered without anyone seeing it.
    , @Anon
    I take it you've never seen Phantom of the Opera?
  170. @Chrisnonymous
    This, from the Turkish Foreign Minister...

    https://twitter.com/MevlutCavusoglu/status/1117878050480361474

    He deleted his previous Tweet, in which he said:

    Friends, stop! If you burn them all down, we can't turn them into mosques like Hagia Sophia!
     

    The fact that the government in charge of the second largest army in NATO openly states that under no circumstances must their co-ethnics in Europe assimilate to Western culture and eulogizes Ottoman conquests in Europe is one of those things that should be more concerning to the powers that be…

    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    Maybe the recently retired CIA man, Mike Morell needs to go on PBS again and speculate about killing Turks the way he did about Russians and Syrians? That seems to be the way Washington deals with things now days.
  171. @Cagey Beast
    Everyone on this side of the old Iron Curtain are the kind of "people who shrugged their shoulders at Bataclan/Nice/Hebdo/etc". It's just as true of Americans as it is of the French.

    True.

  172. @PhysicistDave
    Buffalo Joe wrote

    :Cortes, I like your comments, but Notre Dame would have to be replicated, not restored,structurally a total loss.
     
    The news reports say most of the masonry still stands; the spire is gone, but the towers stand.

    France will restore it. They have no choice.

    It may take a long time.

    My general feeling is that if this were the work of Muslim terrorists, they would have claimed responsibility for it already. I am guessing this some sort of incompetence. However, back maybe 10 years ago, I read an article about a developer in Paris who wanted to tear down Notre Dame and build high-end apartment complexes. His argument was that the cathedral no longer served enough people to justify taking up its valuable real estate. So, it’s possible there was something nefarious going on.

    When I was a small boy, my father had a colleague in art history who traveled to Paris every summer just to investigate and document the small features of the facade of Notre Dame. That cathedral must be one of the most-documented architectural structures in the world.

    The Temple of the Golden Pavilion in Japan was burned down in the 1950s. It took 5-6 years for it to be rebuilt, but as far as I know, it was rebuilt to exactly its previous condition. I think the actual construction took about a year, so I assume the Japanese spent about 5 years doing research to make sure they go it right.

    When the World Trade Center reconstruction was first being discussed, one columnist in National Review (this was back before the Defenestration of Derb, when I was still reading it) said the WTC should be rebuilt exactly, but with the addition of Vulcan cannons mounted on the roof. That was pretty much my feeling as well. In the actual event, we ended up with a horrible wound in the center of New York City that (1) capitulates to the perpetrators by letting their destruction stand (so to speak) and (2) invites Americans to keep the feelz going instead of rebuilding and getting back to work. Plus, it took forever to finish.

    I fear the French will not opt for the Japanese or American solutions but will instead do something that combines the ruins from this fire with a modernist or post-modernist building a la I.M. Pei’s glass Louvre Pyramid. Imagine Notre Dame’s two towers with the Soumaya Museum rising up behind them in place of the former spire!

    • Replies: @notanon

    My general feeling is that if this were the work of Muslim terrorists, they would have claimed responsibility for it already.
     
    i doubt the church burnings in France are consciously jihadist - just ethnic hatred.
    , @PhysicistDave
    Chrisnonymous wrote to me:

    I fear the French will not opt for the Japanese or American solutions but will instead do something that combines the ruins from this fire with a modernist or post-modernist building a la I.M. Pei’s glass Louvre Pyramid.
     
    I've seen the Louvre Pyramid, and while it is certainly out of place, it is not disgustingly ugly.

    No, for truly pointless ugliness take the "Pompidou Center": I saw Steyn make this comment tonight on television, but I have seen the Pompidou Center, and I heartily agree.

    Fortunately, I think Victor Hugo still has enough impact that the French will rebuild the cathedral rather than desecrate it (I use "desecrate" in an aesthetic and historical sense, not theological).
  173. @Tom Scarlett
    Ben Shapiro asked his followers to familiarize themselves with the philosophy behind the cathedral. This drew a harsh response from Josh Marshall, who called Shapiro a buffoonish ignoramus. "While building was just underway, the King despoiled the Jews of France of all their property and expelled them from his kingdom."
    https://twitter.com/joshtpm/status/1117909659292037120

    That’s bad …

    • Agree: Dieter Kief
    • Replies: @bored identity
    Continue.
    , @Desiderius
    No, that's typical Josh Marshall, one of the original dicks on the internet (along with DeLong and Leiter).
  174. @notanon
    lots of arson attacks on churches in France so i wouldn't be surprised if this was another

    but more importantly i think it will be believed to be arson even if it isn't.

    (what effect that will have, if any, who knows)

    Keep in mind that there is a lot of church arson in America and almost none of it is Islamic. Disturbed people who like fire and don’t like God do some of it.

    • Replies: @notanon
    yes - however i'm thinking about your thing about countries like Turkey where everyone believe in conspiracy theories.

    i'm coming to the view that when a population completely loses faith in the truthfulness of their political-media class they end up believing the worst possible explanation for any event.

    so imo the key metric here is not what actually happened but if it was Muslim arson what is the chance the French media-political class would allow it to be reported? my guess is zero and that zero is why people will come to believe it was muslim arson (even if it wasn't).
    , @Jack D
    Church fires are very hard to put out. The structure is often not occupied and by the time anyone notices the building is fully involved. It's usually one big open space and once it gets going there's no stopping it until all the fuel is consumed.
  175. @Jack D
    First reports are often wrong. This is what is called "hearsay" - a friend of a friend told me. Hearsay is not admissible in court because it is so often unreliable. Everyone needs to be patient - the fire has to be out before the arson investigators can go in safely.

    Yes. Well, that’s true, but I thought it was very interesting that Aupetit, the archbishop of Paris, made a point of saying that he had received condolences from the chief rabbi of Paris. That seemed like a very pointed rebuke of omission. Perhaps the Catholic hierarchy has some insight in the matter.

  176. @Western
    It will be a fake. It looks like it has been gutted. It will be like a print of a famous painting, a poster of Van Gogh's Sunflowers. It will never be the same. Part of the mystique is knowing that it was built of over 2 centuries without the aide of modern construction techniques.

    They built Notre Dame doing construction arithmetic with Roman numerals. How did they do that?

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    Euclid had no need of number.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    They built Notre Dame doing construction arithmetic with Roman numerals. How did they do that?
     
    Trial and error. Cf. Beauvais.


    Beauvais Cathedral: the gravity-defying church

    Falling Buttresses: Beauvais Cathedral and the Limits of Gothic Architecture

    , @Moses
    It is possible to do multiplication, division, addition and subtraction using Roman numerals. Cumbersome, but the method was known to the Romans and, I assume, medieval French.

    http://turner.faculty.swau.edu/mathematics/materialslibrary/roman/
    , @Anonymous
    Abacus nicely covers all basic engineering calculations. That's how Greeks and Romans did it.
    , @JMcG
    I recently read a book, recommended here I believe, titled Structures, by J.E. Gordon. It is a sort of an elementary guide to structural engineering. In it, Mr. Gordon makes the point that masonry structures such as Notre Dame are scalable.
    That is to say that if you can build a scale model of the structure using the same materials that doesn’ t collapse, you can go ahead and build the full size structure, as the loads work out properly.
    I simplify obviously, but the book was a very worthwhile quick read.
  177. @nebulafox
    The fact that the government in charge of the second largest army in NATO openly states that under no circumstances must their co-ethnics in Europe assimilate to Western culture and eulogizes Ottoman conquests in Europe is one of those things that should be more concerning to the powers that be...

    Maybe the recently retired CIA man, Mike Morell needs to go on PBS again and speculate about killing Turks the way he did about Russians and Syrians? That seems to be the way Washington deals with things now days.

  178. @Polynikes
    Or make you look like a fool for missing the obvious.

    A stopped clock is right twice a day. I didn’t rule out that it was Muslim arson – it’s just that we have no proof right now. Given that it was a construction site, it’s much more likely that it was construction related – construction workers burn buildings down all the time.

    • Replies: @Polynikes
    " construction workers burn buildings down all the time."

    They do? Where do you live?

    I have no idea what started it. Seems silly to not discuss possible Islamic terrorism as a potential cause--at least as much as these catastrophic construction fires, anyway.
    , @Simply Simon
    Jack D is right. Many fires have been started by roofers who use blow torches to melt the tar when laying down roll roofing. Fire can get out of control very quickly. I know.
    , @istevefan

    Given that it was a construction site, it’s much more likely that it was construction related – construction workers burn buildings down all the time.
     
    Except this isn't just a construction site. It's one of the most famous structures in the world. Would they allow a crew that did not specialize in such work to even touch the place? Surely they would go beyond even the stringent safety standards they already have when working on a treasure like this.

    Also, one would think that the workers and restoration people on a project like this are highly specialized in this line of work. I could be wrong, but I just can't believe they would take the lowest bidder on something like this.
  179. @Dr History

    It’s also Tax Day. Perhaps it was ignited by American anti-tax libertarians. There’s the same amount of evidence as y’all have for pinning it on Muslims.
     
    Wrong, since American Libertarians have not staged organized terrorist attacks, recently including one intended to blow up Notre Dame.

    That said, he don’t you consider shutting up, instead of carrying on with your demonstration of arrogance, powered by astonishing ignorance?

    We’ll "get" that you’re a moron, so you really have nothing left to prove here.

    Some kind of white metal head just got arrested for setting 3 black churches on fire in Louisiana. Firebugs are a threat everywhere. Joe Wambaugh wrote a book about a cop in SoCal who had been turned down for the fire department so he set stores on fire, including one my mother shopped at, and then would call in the first report from just down the block.

  180. This is a tragedy, no question. But even today’s secular French have enough sense to restore Notre Dame.

    Watching the videos of the flames and their destruction, I had a couple of thoughts. Even von Cholitz, the primary Kraut in charge of 1944 Paris, didn’t destroy the cathedral (nor other major monuments and places, nor the city).

    Second thought: Rabelais had a character piss from atop Notre Dame onto the square and a crowd below. Wasn’t it something like a flood? That characters urinary system’s services would have been appreciated today 🙁

    If you’ve been there and looked up, it makes you wary. Was it Gargantua or Pantagruel, can’t recall.

  181. Anonymous[263] • Disclaimer says:
    @PhysicistDave
    Cagey Beast asked:

    Why are there people on Twitter now who express sadness at Notre Dame burning when they work to destroy the West in all other circumstances?
     
    Becuase, in the end, they know they are members of a civilization, a unique civilization that, for all its flaws, has the most spectacular achievements in human history.

    All the white-bashing, all the attacks on Western civilization, are really just petty little scams aimed at increasing their power, indeed, in some cases, just at getting a bit more of the loot into their own personal bank accounts .

    It is also worth remembering that most people in the rest of the world do not hate the West: they want to be the West.

    The coming together around this tragedy reminds us that sometimes sanity wins out.

    Keep telling yourself that.

  182. How’s that multicultural thing working out in France?

  183. Does this mean Jews will still be talking about the golfacust in 2720?

    • Replies: @t
    I doubt on Protestant in a thousand knows what the Edict of Fontainebleau was but Jews can talk about 1260 without looking it up.
    , @AnotherDad
    LOL. Pure ethnocentric gold.

    Amazingly the most obvious notion--that maybe if the Jews (or anyone) do not want to integrate to the norms, values, culture and people of a nation, then maybe they should just stay the hell out?--has never ever occured to little Josh's big Jewish brain.

    There is no entitlement to have anyone welcome you or accomodate you. There is doubly no requirement to welcome people who specifically do not want to integrate with you! Such a notion is flat out looney.


    The French were right to kick the Jews out. One of the wisest things they've ever done. Nations like England and France that did it went on to develop there own internal middle classes and prosper instead of having a external middle man minority extracting wealth. If every country in Europe had pursued the "integrate or get the hell out" policy much strife and tragedy could have been avoided.
  184. If anybody hasn’t reported it yet, Steve, al-Aqsa in Jerusalem also burnt.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Interesting. But this sounds much smaller, and precluded from revenge arson by being too close in time.
    https://www.newsweek.com/notre-dame-fire-aqsa-mosque-1397259

    The Marwani Prayer Room is located underneath the southeastern corner of the Temple Mount, known to Muslims as Haram al-Sharif, which contains both the Dome of the Rock and Al-Aqsa Mosque. Sheikh Azzam al-Khatib, director general of the Jerusalem Waqf and Al-Aqsa Mosque Affairs Department, told Jordan's Al-Mamlaka TV that the fire broke out in the courtyard and preliminary information suggested that it may have been caused by children tampering in the area.
     
    , @Jack D
    There was a minor fire in the area called "Solomon's Stables" which is under the platform on which al-Aqsa sits. The mosque itself did not burn and the fire is out. It was apparently set by Muslim children playing.
  185. @Tom Scarlett
    Ben Shapiro asked his followers to familiarize themselves with the philosophy behind the cathedral. This drew a harsh response from Josh Marshall, who called Shapiro a buffoonish ignoramus. "While building was just underway, the King despoiled the Jews of France of all their property and expelled them from his kingdom."
    https://twitter.com/joshtpm/status/1117909659292037120

    Ben Shapiro was trying to peddle the “Judeo-Christian” nonsense. Josh Marshall was right to call bullshit on it. Of course Marshall doesn’t stop to ask whether the King of France was right to expel the Jews because he’d turn into a pillar of self-hating salt or something if he did.

  186. @Polynikes
    What does a Muslim country want with a cathedral?

    Polynikes wrote to me:

    What does a Muslim country want with a cathedral?

    What use do we have for the Parthenon? Or Stonehenge?

    Most human beings are not completely insane. That includes most Muslims.

    • Replies: @Wilkey
    "What use do we have for the Parthenon? Or Stonehenge? Most human beings are not completely insane. That includes most Muslims."

    Pretty sure he was asking that as a joke. However, victorious conquering Muslims know exactly what to do with a Christian cathedral, especially the greatest of them.

    The sad truth is that if they choose to restore Notre Dame - and politically that's the only tenable option - by the time they get around to finishing the work, two or three generations from now, France could very well be majority Muslim, and there's an even better chance whites will be a racial minority.

    If anything good could come of this it's the reinvigoration of the French people's sense of themselves as a people, through an awareness of their heritage. Not exactly holding my breath, but it could happen.
    , @Kylie
    "Most human beings are not completely insane. That includes most Muslims."

    No, but they are often irrational. Some populations more so than others.
  187. @nebulafox
    You'd be surprised. Most Muslims have a much higher opinion of Christianity than, say, Jews or most Western atheists do. In Islam, Jesus, while emphatically mortal (because there is no God but God... that was the whole point of the faith from the very beginning in 600s Arabia) is considered a forerunner prophet to Muhammad who will come again at the end days.

    I'd be cautious about jumping to conclusions here.

    “Most Muslims” aren’t terrorists; by this reasoning, the US military doesn’t exist, or is nothing to worry about, seeing as most Americans aren’t serving in it.

    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    Interesting analogy, I'll borrow it.
    , @Yoopy

    “Most Muslims” aren’t terrorists; by this reasoning, the US military doesn’t exist, or is nothing to worry about, seeing as most Americans aren’t serving in it.
     
    First rate analogy. The Chinese concur...

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6924349/China-using-AI-identify-Uighurs-China-NYT.html
  188. @Louis Renault
    Your point on fire watches are spot on. There should also be prestaged gear for fighting a fire. The standard fire trucks in the city wouldn't be able to reach the roof either.

    I was shocked at all the artifacts and works of art still stored inside the building. I hope this is a wake-up call to other such places around Europe.

    Back in the Edo period, fire was such a danger in Japanese cities that townspeople built special fire-resistant out-buildings called kura. Europe needs to adopt this strategy as well. Cathedrals like Notre Dame could be storing their valuables in underground bunkers.

  189. @nebulafox
    You'd be surprised. Most Muslims have a much higher opinion of Christianity than, say, Jews or most Western atheists do. In Islam, Jesus, while emphatically mortal (because there is no God but God... that was the whole point of the faith from the very beginning in 600s Arabia) is considered a forerunner prophet to Muhammad who will come again at the end days.

    I'd be cautious about jumping to conclusions here.

    “Most” Muslims don’t commit acts of terrorism. But a disproportionate of them do, enough so, that mass immigration into the west is a bad idea.

    “most” blacks don’t commit murder. But the difference between 3/100k murders and 33/100k is the difference between civilization and the ghetto.

    Why must I be “cautious?” Are the good think police going to arrest me if I’m wrong? Don’t be a concern troll.

  190. @Steve Sailer
    I went to look at Notre Dame in 1980, but I don't recall the interior so perhaps I didn't go inside. The interior of Chartres cathedral out near Versailles is one of the chief glories of Europe, so it would be a challenge to put in modern pipes without ruining it.

    There is (or was) a “attic” space between the ceiling vaults you see from below and the roofline above. This could be sprinklered without anyone seeing it.

  191. @Steve Sailer
    Keep in mind that there is a lot of church arson in America and almost none of it is Islamic. Disturbed people who like fire and don't like God do some of it.

    yes – however i’m thinking about your thing about countries like Turkey where everyone believe in conspiracy theories.

    i’m coming to the view that when a population completely loses faith in the truthfulness of their political-media class they end up believing the worst possible explanation for any event.

    so imo the key metric here is not what actually happened but if it was Muslim arson what is the chance the French media-political class would allow it to be reported? my guess is zero and that zero is why people will come to believe it was muslim arson (even if it wasn’t).

    • Agree: Cortes
    • Replies: @anon

    i’m coming to the view that when a population completely loses faith in the truthfulness of their political-media class they end up believing the worst possible explanation for any event.
     
    And moreover it is very reasonable to assume the worst of people who have betrayed your trust. If Bernie Madofff is trying to sell me stock, I will not bother listening to his pitch. I will assume he is a liar and brush him off. Just so the Democrats and Republicans.
    , @notanon
    thinking about this some more - in the context of people losing all faith in the truthfulness of their political-media class you could almost see "thinking the worst" as a kind of risk-minimizing behavior.
  192. @Jack D
    First reports are often wrong. This is what is called "hearsay" - a friend of a friend told me. Hearsay is not admissible in court because it is so often unreliable. Everyone needs to be patient - the fire has to be out before the arson investigators can go in safely.

    >First reports are often wrong. This is what is called “hearsay”

    It wouldn’t surprise me to find (((them))) blaming it on Iran. That would be sufficient justification to mix it up with the mullahs, which (((they))) have been advocating for for about two decades.

  193. @nebulafox
    If anybody hasn't reported it yet, Steve, al-Aqsa in Jerusalem also burnt.

    Interesting. But this sounds much smaller, and precluded from revenge arson by being too close in time.
    https://www.newsweek.com/notre-dame-fire-aqsa-mosque-1397259

    The Marwani Prayer Room is located underneath the southeastern corner of the Temple Mount, known to Muslims as Haram al-Sharif, which contains both the Dome of the Rock and Al-Aqsa Mosque. Sheikh Azzam al-Khatib, director general of the Jerusalem Waqf and Al-Aqsa Mosque Affairs Department, told Jordan’s Al-Mamlaka TV that the fire broke out in the courtyard and preliminary information suggested that it may have been caused by children tampering in the area.

  194. @Jack D
    A stopped clock is right twice a day. I didn't rule out that it was Muslim arson - it's just that we have no proof right now. Given that it was a construction site, it's much more likely that it was construction related - construction workers burn buildings down all the time.

    ” construction workers burn buildings down all the time.”

    They do? Where do you live?

    I have no idea what started it. Seems silly to not discuss possible Islamic terrorism as a potential cause–at least as much as these catastrophic construction fires, anyway.

  195. @Ann K
    African Americans in what way?

    He said African -African. Paris is full of African-Africans from the former French colonies.

    • Replies: @a reader

    Paris is full of African-Africans from the former French colonies.
     
    And this means ... many !
  196. @nebulafox
    If anybody hasn't reported it yet, Steve, al-Aqsa in Jerusalem also burnt.

    There was a minor fire in the area called “Solomon’s Stables” which is under the platform on which al-Aqsa sits. The mosque itself did not burn and the fire is out. It was apparently set by Muslim children playing.

  197. What use do we have for the Parthenon? Or Stonehenge?

    Look up the word forebears.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    The question was rhetorical. PDave's come a long way.
  198. @Steve Sailer
    Keep in mind that there is a lot of church arson in America and almost none of it is Islamic. Disturbed people who like fire and don't like God do some of it.

    Church fires are very hard to put out. The structure is often not occupied and by the time anyone notices the building is fully involved. It’s usually one big open space and once it gets going there’s no stopping it until all the fuel is consumed.

  199. @Rapparee

    And why is the government– the city, or the nation?– doing the repairs?
     
    Since 1905, the French state owns the building, operating it on behalf of the Catholic Church. Separation of Church and State means something very different in France than in the US.

    That sweeping legislation of 1905 took the heart out of France, setting the stage for her regular humiliation since.

    First by the Germans, then by the Americans, now by the Muslims.

  200. @Colin Wright
    I find it incredible that there wasn't a night watchman on duty. Was he asleep?

    Then I read, 'I visited ND 2 weeks ago. The security guards were African-Africans...'

    Let's not leap to conclusions, but...

    I find it incredible that there wasn’t a night watchman on duty. Was he asleep?

    He had a chiropractor’s appointment.

    • LOL: Achmed E. Newman
  201. @Steve Sailer
    They built Notre Dame doing construction arithmetic with Roman numerals. How did they do that?

    Euclid had no need of number.

  202. @Steve Sailer
    That's bad ...

    No, that’s typical Josh Marshall, one of the original dicks on the internet (along with DeLong and Leiter).

  203. @Reg Cæsar

    What use do we have for the Parthenon? Or Stonehenge?
     
    Look up the word forebears.

    The question was rhetorical. PDave’s come a long way.

  204. @Steve Sailer
    They built Notre Dame doing construction arithmetic with Roman numerals. How did they do that?

    They built Notre Dame doing construction arithmetic with Roman numerals. How did they do that?

    Trial and error. Cf. Beauvais.

    Beauvais Cathedral: the gravity-defying church

    Falling Buttresses: Beauvais Cathedral and the Limits of Gothic Architecture

    • Replies: @James Speaks
    Freemasons memorized construction techniques and dimensions that had worked previously. They did not understand theory. Theory did not come about until after Newton.
  205. “The France that cries and the France that laughs”

  206. Rude, untoward and inappropriate for me to say at this moment, but when Notre Dame is rebuilt I hope they don’t rebuild the spire. Notre Dame is stunningly beautiful, the spire was added 180 years ago, and detracts from the beautiful symmetry of the church as designed and crafted. And the spire looks like one of those new-fangled cell phone towers with, garlanded with microwave devices. I hope that the rebuild will do justice to this magnificent achievement.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Oh, I was wondering about the spire. It seemed a bit much with all the else that's going on.
    , @Jenner Ickham Errican
    A disagree from me. I like neo-Gothic Romanticism where appropriate and well-conceived. Notre-Dame is, after all, a medieval Gothic cathedral. The ornamentation is part of the mystique. Viollet-le-Duc’s spire was not a completely new addition: There was an original one removed in 1786 due to decay. Balance-wise, a central spire keeps the overall mass from being visually end-heavy and dominated by the huge towers.

    One problem with the look of the modern spire was its darkening due to grime, which contrasted with the rest of the exterior. The restoration would have made it of-a-piece with the rest. Finally, another reason to exactly rebuild the spire is that in all modern memory of Notre-Dame, including almost all photography, the spire rises.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c8/Flèche_Notre-Dame_de_Paris.jpg

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/Spire_of_Notre-Dame_de_Paris%2C_September_2013.jpg

  207. @Western
    It will be a fake. It looks like it has been gutted. It will be like a print of a famous painting, a poster of Van Gogh's Sunflowers. It will never be the same. Part of the mystique is knowing that it was built of over 2 centuries without the aide of modern construction techniques.

    The Benedictine monastery at Montecassino was reduced to gravel by the Allies in WW2, but was perfectly rebuilt in a relatively short time to brand new condition including all the sculpture, paintings and gilding . The only problem is that everything looks new and shiny with none of the patina and wear of an old building so it just doesn’t have the same impact of the original, founded 1500 years ago. The Benedictine Abbey in Melk Austria is virtually a copy and you can feel the difference in their antiquity. (The Benedictine monks ran one of the first major franchise operations. When they referred to Golden Arches they weren’t kidding about the gold part.)

    • Replies: @Western
    They might as well rebuild Notre Dame in Las Vegas next to the Statue of Liberty, Eiffel Tower, and Venice canals.
  208. @Polynikes
    What does a Muslim country want with a cathedral?

    You want the cathedral so you can make it into a mosque – see Hagia Sofia in Istanbul. And you want the mosque so you can make it into a cathedral -see the Mosque of Cordoba.

    • Replies: @SDMatt
    The Mosque of Cordoba started life centuries earlier as the Basilica of St Vincent.
  209. Dear Muslim terrorists:

    Please choose other less beautiful Paris monuments for your arsons. May I suggest for your next “coup” the horrendous Centre Georges Pompidou.
    Thanks in advance

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_Georges_Pompidou

    • LOL: Desiderius
  210. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:

    Some interesting coincidences: Today is Yom HaAliyah:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_HaAliyah

    Yom HaAliyah (Aliyah Day) (Hebrew: יום העלייה‎) is an Israeli national holiday celebrated annually according to the Jewish calendar on the tenth of the Hebrew month of Nisan and also observed in schools on the seventh of the Hebrew month of Cheshvan, to commemorate the historic events of the Jewish People entering the Land of Israel as written in the Bible, which happened on the tenth of the Hebrew month of Nisan

    https://www.newsweek.com/notre-dame-fire-aqsa-mosque-1397259

    “Jerusalem’s Al-Aqsa Mosque Fire Burns at the Same Time As Flames Engulf Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris”

  211. What does a Muslim country want with a cathedral?

    A connect-the-dots mosque.

    Turks push to turn iconic Hagia Sophia back into a mosque

    Kemalists had made it a museum in 1935. Not long after they changed the name of the city.

    • Replies: @Hapalong Cassidy
    It truly is an unfortunate accident of history that such a remarkable man (Mustafa Kemal) was born as a Turk. If not for that, the Turks would have been crushed in WW1 and the western third of modern Turkey would now be in Greek hands. Istanbul would once again be Constantinople.
  212. @(((They))) Live
    Quasimodo predicted all this

    “Quasimodo predicted all this.”

    A Sopranos fan!

  213. @Steve Sailer
    The Barcelona terrorists ultimate plan was to blow up Gaudi's Sacred Family cathedral.

    But there are a lot of church arsonists and they have a lot of different motivations. And everybody is saying this wasn't arson.

    In Homage To Catalonia Orwell wrote:

    For the first time since I had been in Barcelona I went to have a look at the cathedral – a modern cathedral, and one of the most hideous buildings in the world. It has four crenellated spires exactly the shape of hock bottles. Unlike most of the churches in Barcelona it was not damaged during the revolution – it was spared because of its ‘artistic value’, people said.

    I think the Anarchists showed bad taste in not blowing it up when they had a chance, though they did hang a red and black banner between its spires.

    In fact most of the figures at the Rosary doorway on the Nativity Facade were destroyed and later had to be replaced.

    Gaudi of course is interred in the crypt. The Anarchists liked to dig up clergy and desecrate their bodies. I hope he was left alone.

  214. @Dr History

    It’s also Tax Day. Perhaps it was ignited by American anti-tax libertarians. There’s the same amount of evidence as y’all have for pinning it on Muslims.
     
    Wrong, since American Libertarians have not staged organized terrorist attacks, recently including one intended to blow up Notre Dame.

    That said, he don’t you consider shutting up, instead of carrying on with your demonstration of arrogance, powered by astonishing ignorance?

    We’ll "get" that you’re a moron, so you really have nothing left to prove here.

    Wrong, since American Libertarians have not staged organized terrorist attacks

    Oklahoma City comes to mind.

  215. It is also worth remembering that most people in the rest of the world do not hate the West: they want to be the West.

    Close Dave, but a bit off. Allow me to rephrase:

    It is also worth remembering that most people in the rest of the world do not hate the West: they want to subvert and take control of the material abundance West through demographic invasion.

    Muslims certainly do not want to “become” our feminist pussy-hat wearers or open celebration of homosexuality.

    They just want our stuff.

  216. @Daniel H
    Rude, untoward and inappropriate for me to say at this moment, but when Notre Dame is rebuilt I hope they don't rebuild the spire. Notre Dame is stunningly beautiful, the spire was added 180 years ago, and detracts from the beautiful symmetry of the church as designed and crafted. And the spire looks like one of those new-fangled cell phone towers with, garlanded with microwave devices. I hope that the rebuild will do justice to this magnificent achievement.

    Oh, I was wondering about the spire. It seemed a bit much with all the else that’s going on.

    • Agree: Harry Baldwin
  217. @Liza
    1. The Reims Cathedral ( Cathédrale Notre-Dame de Reims) is a close replica of the one burned in Paris, so maybe that's where the tourists will be off to, now.

    2. I'll bet the ghost of Dominique Venner is wandering thru the ruins.

    Based on the little exposure I had in some Architectural History and Medieval Art courses I would argue that the cathedrals at Reims and Amiens equal, and in some ways surpass Notre-Dame de Paris.

    Personally, I prefer the asymmetry and excess of Reims to the neater, tidier, perhaps even a bit sterile structure at Amiens.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Kenneth Clark said "not perhaps the most lovable of cathedrals, but the most rigorously intellectual facade in the whole of Gothic art…"
    , @a reader

    Personally, I prefer the asymmetry and excess of Reims to the neater, tidier, perhaps even a bit sterile structure at Amiens.
     
    What about this building commissioned 60 years later by the richest man to roam the earth, ever.
    , @Buffalo Joe
    Wild Geese, Mona Lisa is not a beutiful woman, but the panting is a beautiful work of art. I have seen neither Reims or Amiens, but Notre Dame moved me.
  218. @peterike
    "Civilization" is still the best television documentary ever. Just brilliant.

    Meanwhile, the loss of Notre Dame is a horrendous. But given current trends, in 20 or 30 more years, the demolition of the great cathedrals in France, Germany, England and a few others will be government policy.

    Meanwhile, the loss of Notre Dame is horrendous. But given current trends, in 20 or 30 more years, the demolition of the great cathedrals in France, Germany, England and a few others will be government policy.

    It’s going to be a lot more than the great cathedrals. We have a civilization to destroy!

  219. @PhysicistDave
    Cagey Beast asked:

    Why are there people on Twitter now who express sadness at Notre Dame burning when they work to destroy the West in all other circumstances?
     
    Becuase, in the end, they know they are members of a civilization, a unique civilization that, for all its flaws, has the most spectacular achievements in human history.

    All the white-bashing, all the attacks on Western civilization, are really just petty little scams aimed at increasing their power, indeed, in some cases, just at getting a bit more of the loot into their own personal bank accounts .

    It is also worth remembering that most people in the rest of the world do not hate the West: they want to be the West.

    The coming together around this tragedy reminds us that sometimes sanity wins out.

    It is also worth remembering that most people in the rest of the world do not hate the West: they want to be the West.

    Close Dave, but a bit off.

    Muslims certainly do not want to “become” the West. The West exalts that which they despise — feminist pussy-hat wearers, open celebration of homosexuality, non-burqa-wearing women, interest-bearing accounts, etc.

    They just want our stuff.

    And they will get it through their ongoing demographic invasion and high reproduction rates.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    That's still a bit off, IMO, Mose. The Moslems that have come already are getting the good stuff that the West built over the long term. Once their numbers get big and overwhelming, yes, they will still have the land, and the deteriorating infrastructure and physical plant ("there's a lot of ruin in a nation"), but the intangible benefits of Western society that the earlier crowd came for will have already been destroyed by them and others by that time.
    , @PhysicistDave
    Moses wrote to me:

    Muslims certainly do not want to “become” the West. The West exalts that which they despise — feminist pussy-hat wearers, open celebration of homosexuality...
     
    So... are you saying Muslims are less sane than contemporary Westerners or more sane?
  220. @Reg Cæsar

    France will restore it. They have no choice.
     
    Mrs Macron just announced the finalists will be Daniel Libeskind and Frank Gehry. Cast your vote today!

    Mrs Macron just announced the finalists will be Daniel Libeskind and Frank Gehry. Cast your vote today!

    Neither!

    H.R. Giger is the only man who can do this job properly!

    • Replies: @Liza
    Giger croaked in 2014.

    Fernando Botero's still around, though. The slender statues in the cathedral are surely fat shaming - he'll rectify that!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fernando_Botero#Examples_of_his_work
    , @Anonymous
    Giger was, if nothing else, unique. Would have loved to met him.
  221. @PhysicistDave
    Polynikes wrote to me:

    What does a Muslim country want with a cathedral?
     
    What use do we have for the Parthenon? Or Stonehenge?

    Most human beings are not completely insane. That includes most Muslims.

    “What use do we have for the Parthenon? Or Stonehenge? Most human beings are not completely insane. That includes most Muslims.”

    Pretty sure he was asking that as a joke. However, victorious conquering Muslims know exactly what to do with a Christian cathedral, especially the greatest of them.

    The sad truth is that if they choose to restore Notre Dame – and politically that’s the only tenable option – by the time they get around to finishing the work, two or three generations from now, France could very well be majority Muslim, and there’s an even better chance whites will be a racial minority.

    If anything good could come of this it’s the reinvigoration of the French people’s sense of themselves as a people, through an awareness of their heritage. Not exactly holding my breath, but it could happen.

  222. @Cagey Beast
    ... Daniel Libeskind and Frank Gehry ...

    Yes, the alienu prayer in glass and steel. A stainless steel and glass tumour will be added to Notre Dame and the Argentine anti-Pope will squeal with delight when the drawings are shown to him.

    Commenter Jack Strocchi said the other day, “Post-modern art is thus the deepest reflection of liberal resentment of our ancestors achievement – it is in essence an act of vandalism.”

    Seems to fit (((Libeskind’s and Gehry”s))) architecture to a tee.

    • Agree: Liza
  223. @Alfa158
    The Benedictine monastery at Montecassino was reduced to gravel by the Allies in WW2, but was perfectly rebuilt in a relatively short time to brand new condition including all the sculpture, paintings and gilding . The only problem is that everything looks new and shiny with none of the patina and wear of an old building so it just doesn’t have the same impact of the original, founded 1500 years ago. The Benedictine Abbey in Melk Austria is virtually a copy and you can feel the difference in their antiquity. (The Benedictine monks ran one of the first major franchise operations. When they referred to Golden Arches they weren’t kidding about the gold part.)

    They might as well rebuild Notre Dame in Las Vegas next to the Statue of Liberty, Eiffel Tower, and Venice canals.

    • Replies: @gabriel alberton
    Or like the Parthenon in Nashville.

    Regarding the reactions: God, save me from such unctuous tweets and public statements, as genuine as the roof which will replace the one which burned down.
  224. @nebulafox
    You'd be surprised. Most Muslims have a much higher opinion of Christianity than, say, Jews or most Western atheists do. In Islam, Jesus, while emphatically mortal (because there is no God but God... that was the whole point of the faith from the very beginning in 600s Arabia) is considered a forerunner prophet to Muhammad who will come again at the end days.

    I'd be cautious about jumping to conclusions here.

    You’d be surprised. Most Muslims have a much higher opinion of Christianity than, say, Jews or most Western atheists do.

    Really?

    Not two weeks ago I had half a dozen Muslims in a so-called “moderate” Muslim country tell me to my face that the Holy Trinity is a, “a joke,” followed by much hearty laughing.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    Moderates in our own country will do the same.

    There's a Goldwater quote which comes to mind.
    , @Father O'Hara
    I assume you came back with the Mohammed was a child molester stuff?
    , @Father O'Hara
    I assume you came back with the Mohammed was a child molester stuff?
    , @PiltdownMan
    The Koran explicitly rejects the co-substantial nature of Jesus, as asserted in the Nicene creed. It holds that the gospels were corrupted, after the life of Jesus, by mortal men, specifically, by their insistence on a triune nature for God.

    The Koran, however, does not reject the Virgin Birth, nor the Immaculate Conception, and holds that Jesus was the Messiah, performed miracles, and will return on Judgment Day to usher the righteous into Heaven.

    All that puts it way closer to Christianity, doctrinally speaking, than Judaism.
    , @DFH
    But did they say that Jesus was burning in faeces in Hell or that the Virgin was in a tub of boiling semen, which is written in the Talmud?
  225. @Jack D
    You want the cathedral so you can make it into a mosque - see Hagia Sofia in Istanbul. And you want the mosque so you can make it into a cathedral -see the Mosque of Cordoba.

    The Mosque of Cordoba started life centuries earlier as the Basilica of St Vincent.

    • Agree: songbird
  226. @Reg Cæsar

    They built Notre Dame doing construction arithmetic with Roman numerals. How did they do that?
     
    Trial and error. Cf. Beauvais.


    Beauvais Cathedral: the gravity-defying church

    Falling Buttresses: Beauvais Cathedral and the Limits of Gothic Architecture

    Freemasons memorized construction techniques and dimensions that had worked previously. They did not understand theory. Theory did not come about until after Newton.

  227. @Western
    It will be a fake. It looks like it has been gutted. It will be like a print of a famous painting, a poster of Van Gogh's Sunflowers. It will never be the same. Part of the mystique is knowing that it was built of over 2 centuries without the aide of modern construction techniques.

    Best option is to rebuild, even if it is a copy. Not much in this day would be up to replacing a copy of Notre Dame.

  228. @Tom Scarlett
    Ben Shapiro asked his followers to familiarize themselves with the philosophy behind the cathedral. This drew a harsh response from Josh Marshall, who called Shapiro a buffoonish ignoramus. "While building was just underway, the King despoiled the Jews of France of all their property and expelled them from his kingdom."
    https://twitter.com/joshtpm/status/1117909659292037120

    Wow – Ben Shapiro isn’t sufficiently ethnocentric for Josh Marshall.

    One hardly knows what to say.

    • Replies: @216
    Shapiro leads a predominantly Christian following, but he's never indicated the slightest interest in conversion.

    For starters, that makes his followers look gullible, stupid, and lacking of self-respect.

    For leftist co-ethnics, he isn't subverting hard enough, as his obvious interest has been Zionism instead of Tikkun.

    Outside of Conservatism Inc and associated right-liberals, the term Judeo-Christian is useless. But they won't use the term Abrahamic, as it grants moral legitimacy to Islam.
  229. @Jack D
    A stopped clock is right twice a day. I didn't rule out that it was Muslim arson - it's just that we have no proof right now. Given that it was a construction site, it's much more likely that it was construction related - construction workers burn buildings down all the time.

    Jack D is right. Many fires have been started by roofers who use blow torches to melt the tar when laying down roll roofing. Fire can get out of control very quickly. I know.

  230. @Steve Sailer
    They built Notre Dame doing construction arithmetic with Roman numerals. How did they do that?

    It is possible to do multiplication, division, addition and subtraction using Roman numerals. Cumbersome, but the method was known to the Romans and, I assume, medieval French.

    http://turner.faculty.swau.edu/mathematics/materialslibrary/roman/

  231. @Tom Scarlett
    Ben Shapiro asked his followers to familiarize themselves with the philosophy behind the cathedral. This drew a harsh response from Josh Marshall, who called Shapiro a buffoonish ignoramus. "While building was just underway, the King despoiled the Jews of France of all their property and expelled them from his kingdom."
    https://twitter.com/joshtpm/status/1117909659292037120

    Notre Dame burned to the ground whatever whatever.

    All I want to know is the history behind Notre Dame factored into Jewish persecution?

    Everyone knows an event is only important given how it affects the Jews.

    • Replies: @Uncle Remus
    No doubt we'll be hearing soon enough.
  232. @The Wild Geese Howard
    Based on the little exposure I had in some Architectural History and Medieval Art courses I would argue that the cathedrals at Reims and Amiens equal, and in some ways surpass Notre-Dame de Paris.

    Personally, I prefer the asymmetry and excess of Reims to the neater, tidier, perhaps even a bit sterile structure at Amiens.

    Kenneth Clark said “not perhaps the most lovable of cathedrals, but the most rigorously intellectual facade in the whole of Gothic art…”

  233. @Jack D
    First reports are often wrong. This is what is called "hearsay" - a friend of a friend told me. Hearsay is not admissible in court because it is so often unreliable. Everyone needs to be patient - the fire has to be out before the arson investigators can go in safely.

    Not under Jack D’s watch:

    “Not on my watch,” Shepard Smith said scolding Philippe Karsenty, a French elected official who questioned the “politically correct” narrative that the Notre Dame fire was an accident.

    “Even the Nazis didn’t dare destroy it [Notre Dame cathedral],” Karsenty said. “And you have to know for the last year we’ve had churches desecrated each and every week all over France so of course you will hear the story of the politically correct which will tell you it is probably an accident.”

    Shepard Smith immediately cut off Karsenty — “Sir. Sir! Sir! We’re not going to speculate here of the cause of something for which we don’t know.”

    Shepard Smith would not let the guest speak and eventually ended the call saying, “No sir, not here, not on my watch!”

    https://twitter.com/OfficeOfMike/status/1117882939797168129?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

  234. @Reg Cæsar

    What does a Muslim country want with a cathedral?
     
    A connect-the-dots mosque.

    Turks push to turn iconic Hagia Sophia back into a mosque

    Kemalists had made it a museum in 1935. Not long after they changed the name of the city.



    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Wcze7EGorOk

    It truly is an unfortunate accident of history that such a remarkable man (Mustafa Kemal) was born as a Turk. If not for that, the Turks would have been crushed in WW1 and the western third of modern Turkey would now be in Greek hands. Istanbul would once again be Constantinople.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    Stephan Patsis (yes, of Greek ancestry) got death threats for this strip:


    https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/jfboyd/3362151/73843/73843_original.gif

  235. @Jack D
    A stopped clock is right twice a day. I didn't rule out that it was Muslim arson - it's just that we have no proof right now. Given that it was a construction site, it's much more likely that it was construction related - construction workers burn buildings down all the time.

    Given that it was a construction site, it’s much more likely that it was construction related – construction workers burn buildings down all the time.

    Except this isn’t just a construction site. It’s one of the most famous structures in the world. Would they allow a crew that did not specialize in such work to even touch the place? Surely they would go beyond even the stringent safety standards they already have when working on a treasure like this.

    Also, one would think that the workers and restoration people on a project like this are highly specialized in this line of work. I could be wrong, but I just can’t believe they would take the lowest bidder on something like this.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    A giant apartment complex under construction in downtown L.A. burned down spectacularly a few years ago.

    That turned out to be Black Lives Matter terrorism arson.

    https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-da-vinci-arson-plea-20170424-story.html

    , @Chrisnonymous
    If we're going to have a conspiracy theory, I prefer the one that Macron did it to quelch yellow vest enthusiasm.

    That bastard.
  236. Anonymous[270] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    They built Notre Dame doing construction arithmetic with Roman numerals. How did they do that?

    Abacus nicely covers all basic engineering calculations. That’s how Greeks and Romans did it.

  237. It’s early days so the truth about this fire isn’t yet known, though truth may be leaking out.
    If this guy and his sources are legitimate then officials there are suspicious of the fire origin and
    No one was working there today. Safety procedures are said to have been strictly followed. And
    Evidently unknown persons were seen in non public places just prior to the fire and video is here
    https://mobile.twitter.com/sotiridi

  238. @Jack D
    It's also Tax Day. Perhaps it was ignited by American anti-tax libertarians. There's the same amount of evidence as y'all have for pinning it on Muslims.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    She's giving it to Ben from the other direction.

    https://twitter.com/helenelamm/status/1117972508525912065

    For once, I think I'm with Shapiro. They're both right about his ignorance, but as with Trump that may be necessary to find our way through the impasse.
    , @Anonymous
    The LARPing muh-Traditional Catholic types are among the most insufferable people on Twitter. You know this one's especially bad because she uses "Our Lady". Romanism was the original Globalist and Multicultural ideology, no matter how hard these types try to retcon things.
  239. @The Wild Geese Howard

    You’d be surprised. Most Muslims have a much higher opinion of Christianity than, say, Jews or most Western atheists do.
     
    Really?

    Not two weeks ago I had half a dozen Muslims in a so-called "moderate" Muslim country tell me to my face that the Holy Trinity is a, "a joke," followed by much hearty laughing.

    Moderates in our own country will do the same.

    There’s a Goldwater quote which comes to mind.

  240. @istevefan

    Given that it was a construction site, it’s much more likely that it was construction related – construction workers burn buildings down all the time.
     
    Except this isn't just a construction site. It's one of the most famous structures in the world. Would they allow a crew that did not specialize in such work to even touch the place? Surely they would go beyond even the stringent safety standards they already have when working on a treasure like this.

    Also, one would think that the workers and restoration people on a project like this are highly specialized in this line of work. I could be wrong, but I just can't believe they would take the lowest bidder on something like this.

    A giant apartment complex under construction in downtown L.A. burned down spectacularly a few years ago.

    That turned out to be Black Lives Matter terrorism arson.

    https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-da-vinci-arson-plea-20170424-story.html

    • Replies: @Clifford Brown
    America does The Apocalypse better, and L.A. in particular, is fertile ground for apocalyptic visions. Even a downtown L.A. luxury condo fire feels pretty close to The End Times.

    https://youtu.be/A0WunnKcbuc?t=56
    , @Anon
    This seems like an idiotic comparison to Notre Dame, but when the homeless-filled Pan Pacific Auditorium burned down it really hit me that the Los Angeles I grew up in was dying. The slow disappearance of all the Googie-style restaurants led up to it.

    OT

    Rod Dreher at the American Conservative sympathetically summarized a recent article by a young Englishman who converted to Islam. It's not as crazy as you might think. It's kind of like becoming a fan of Jordan Peterson, but with a more spiritual component. He just wanted a haven from the sex-booze-cosmopolitan-transgender-emasculated-unpatriotic hellhole that modern society has become, something with firm traditional beliefs, discipline, and patriarchal guidance and leadership. He relates how all Christian churches he visited had been co-opted (Dreher, who ended up in an Eastern Orthodox church, wished the guy had given that a try).

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/why-convert-to-islam/

    The longer original piece published on a Christian website:

    https://www.firstthings.com/article/2019/05/why-i-became-muslim

    , @Travis
    In France, two churches are desecrated every day on average. According to PI-News, a German news site, 1,063 attacks on Christian churches or symbols (crucifixes, icons, statues) were registered in France in 2018. This represents a 17% increase compared to the previous year (2017), when 878 attacks were registered— meaning that such attacks are only going from bad to worse.

    Similar reports are coming out of Germany. Four separate churches were vandalized and/or torched in March alone. "In this country," PI-News explained, "there is a creeping war against everything that symbolizes Christianity: attacks on mountain-summit crosses, on sacred statues by the wayside, on churches... and recently also on cemeteries."

    A German report from 2017 noted that in the Alps and Bavaria alone, around 200 churches were attacked and many crosses broken: "Police are currently dealing with church desecrations again and again. The perpetrators are often youthful rioters with a migration background." Elsewhere they are described as "young Islamists."
    , @Neoconned
    Steve I attend comic con every summer at the LACC. I can recall looking thru the glass east and seeing no towers....that lasted til about 2015. I came back in summer 2016 and 4 or 5 towers were now up SE of DTLA.

    Some of the locals I chatted with told me they were condo towers. When I returned in 2017 I counted 8 odd rowers done or near done.....with 5 odd more under construction
  241. @J.Ross
    Muslims on social media are posting smiling faces and talking about divine justice.
    https://postimg.cc/grS0qsD5
    A day ago the cathedral of St Denis was desecrated; St Denis is of course tied to the repulse of Muslims in Medieval Europe.

    St Denis was third century, three centuries before Islam.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    The monks at St Denis give us the story of Charles Martel repelling the religion of peace, in "the Chronicle of St Denis."
    , @Anonymous
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8O3xCpC6M8

    Well, this was a third of a century ago......maybe closer to half of one now.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    St Denis was third century, three centuries before Islam.
     
    St George was even earlier. He's also "tied to the repulse of Muslims" in medieval Europe. England, too.
  242. @PhysicistDave
    Cagey Beast asked:

    Why are there people on Twitter now who express sadness at Notre Dame burning when they work to destroy the West in all other circumstances?
     
    Becuase, in the end, they know they are members of a civilization, a unique civilization that, for all its flaws, has the most spectacular achievements in human history.

    All the white-bashing, all the attacks on Western civilization, are really just petty little scams aimed at increasing their power, indeed, in some cases, just at getting a bit more of the loot into their own personal bank accounts .

    It is also worth remembering that most people in the rest of the world do not hate the West: they want to be the West.

    The coming together around this tragedy reminds us that sometimes sanity wins out.

    If they wanted to be the West then they would be the West in their own countries. They look at meritocracy as misrule and freedom of speech as disrespect.

    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
    J. Ross wrote to me:

    [Muslims] look at meritocracy as misrule and freedom of speech as disrespect.
     
    I've known quite a few Muslims over the decades and read reports by people who know those countries far better than you or I ever will.

    There are clearly a lot of Muslims who respect meritocracy and freedom of expression -- one lives across the street from me.

    And, I know white Americans who don't.

    However, at least until recently, we Americans more or less knew how to keep our crazies under control (not so much any longer). And, the sane folks in Muslim countries were not as good at keeping their crazies under control.

    Think of it as a problem in zoo-keeping: we knew what to do with our wild beasts in the shape of humans (I mean thuggish white Americans -- this is not a racist point), they not as much.

    Although, nowadays.... if I had to choose between being ruled by an all-powerful AOC or an all-powerful Ayatollah, I'm not sure which way I'd go.
    , @L Woods
    I hardly see an issue, as they’ll find neither of those things in today’s West.
  243. @theo the kraut
    https://twitter.com/schubert_albert/status/1117891808250466315

  244. @istevefan
    https://twitter.com/helenelamm/status/1117857999622529033

    She’s giving it to Ben from the other direction.

    For once, I think I’m with Shapiro. They’re both right about his ignorance, but as with Trump that may be necessary to find our way through the impasse.

    • Agree: PhysicistDave
    • Replies: @istevefan
    And Kristol is giving it back to Ben too.

    https://twitter.com/BillKristol/status/1117962603865755649
    , @J.Ross
    Agree. Shapiro's an enemy, but his tone and intention here were unimpeachable, and his good deed is hideously punished.
  245. @Vinteuil
    Wow - Ben Shapiro isn't sufficiently ethnocentric for Josh Marshall.


    One hardly knows what to say.

    Shapiro leads a predominantly Christian following, but he’s never indicated the slightest interest in conversion.

    For starters, that makes his followers look gullible, stupid, and lacking of self-respect.

    For leftist co-ethnics, he isn’t subverting hard enough, as his obvious interest has been Zionism instead of Tikkun.

    Outside of Conservatism Inc and associated right-liberals, the term Judeo-Christian is useless. But they won’t use the term Abrahamic, as it grants moral legitimacy to Islam.

    • Agree: bored identity
  246. @MBlanc46
    St Denis was third century, three centuries before Islam.

    The monks at St Denis give us the story of Charles Martel repelling the religion of peace, in “the Chronicle of St Denis.”

  247. Anon[135] • Disclaimer says:
    @Andy
    somewhat off-topic, here is a reasonable essay on immigration by Andrew Sullivan:

    http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/04/andrew-sullivan-the-opportunity-of-white-anxiety.html?utm_medium=s1&utm_source=tw&utm_campaign=di

    somewhat off-topic, here is a reasonable essay on immigration by Andrew Sullivan:

    http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/04/andrew-sullivan-the-opportunity-of-white-anxiety.html

    I’m glad to see Eric Kaufmann’s book getting some high profile attention stateside.

    In addition to Kaufmann’s analysis and prescriptions, his book contains a quite detailed history of American immigration, cosmopolitanism and the intellectual movements related to it. Kaufmann traces it from pre-Revolution through, well, people like Peter Brimelow. If you think you know this stuff, you don’t.

    The Zeroeth Amendment is covered, though not called that by Kaufmann. It started with just a teeny plaque inside the base, and grew from there.

    Kaufmann has done some excellent interviews that are available on YouTube.

    • Agree: utu
  248. @Desiderius
    She's giving it to Ben from the other direction.

    https://twitter.com/helenelamm/status/1117972508525912065

    For once, I think I'm with Shapiro. They're both right about his ignorance, but as with Trump that may be necessary to find our way through the impasse.

    And Kristol is giving it back to Ben too.

    • Replies: @216
    My culture is not your prom dress
    , @Desiderius
    Dude's been living in hell. It's getting to him.
  249. @Desiderius
    She's giving it to Ben from the other direction.

    https://twitter.com/helenelamm/status/1117972508525912065

    For once, I think I'm with Shapiro. They're both right about his ignorance, but as with Trump that may be necessary to find our way through the impasse.

    Agree. Shapiro’s an enemy, but his tone and intention here were unimpeachable, and his good deed is hideously punished.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    If all I can manage for an enemy is little Ben Shapiro I might as well just hang it up and go play with my boys.
    , @Anonymous
    https://twitter.com/benshapiro/status/1118241136764526592
  250. Trump was mocked for this tweet:

    But, here is an example of such a tactic being used:

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    Dog bites man. Shapiro posted a particularly stupid tweet mocking Trump before he deleted it.

    You'd think the three-hundredth time this happened they'd check themselves.

    You'd be wrong. Incredible social pressure to signal distance from Trump. Never seen anything like it.
  251. @t
    https://twitter.com/joshtpm/status/1117913678437728257

    Does this mean Jews will still be talking about the golfacust in 2720?

    I doubt on Protestant in a thousand knows what the Edict of Fontainebleau was but Jews can talk about 1260 without looking it up.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    We had St. Bart's. French geography doesn't lend itself well to pluralism.
    , @gcochran
    In my experience, Jews don't know much about Jewish medieval history.
    , @Known Fact
    Do too -- It's that hotel on Miami Beach!
  252. Growing up I often visited the cathedral in Covington, KY (why does that city sound familiar?). Its facade is a very close replica of that of Notre Dame de Paris
    .
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedral_Basilica_of_the_Assumption_(Covington,_Kentucky)

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    Covington has two spectacular cathedrals. Catholic stonemasons fleeing Bismarck. One of my ancestors was a French stonemason from that era.
  253. @Steve Sailer
    A giant apartment complex under construction in downtown L.A. burned down spectacularly a few years ago.

    That turned out to be Black Lives Matter terrorism arson.

    https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-da-vinci-arson-plea-20170424-story.html

    America does The Apocalypse better, and L.A. in particular, is fertile ground for apocalyptic visions. Even a downtown L.A. luxury condo fire feels pretty close to The End Times.

  254. @Reg Cæsar

    Even if it was Muslim arson
     
    Mohammedans have to be careful around Jesus, who is a prophet, albeit a dwarf prophet, to them. I doubt the fecal treatment given to other French churches of late was their work, unless there are MENA Sartres among them.

    Christians who have it in for Jews don't attack Isaiah or Jeremiah.

    JimB's hypothesis of low wages and standards appears to be the most likely.

    I'm also tempted to channel Jerry Falwell and accept this as an Act of God. The best way to protect churches is to attend them.

    Mohammedans have to be careful around Jesus, who is a prophet, albeit a dwarf prophet, to them. I doubt the fecal treatment given to other French churches of late was their work, unless there are MENA Sartres among them.

    They have to speak well of him because they consider him a prophet. But they don’t have to respect crosses, crucifixes or any statues of him because they consider that idolatry. So they will on occasion ransack a church and destroy the statues, glass windows and any other depictions they find.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    Just like the occasional church in England where the New Model Army was stationed and they have had their stain glass windows smashed as idolatrous.
    , @JerseyJeffersonian
    Yes, the destruction and desecration of churches and all things Christian is certainly in the toolbox of islamists (rather like shelling the Buddhist monumental rock sculptures in Afghanistan a few years back).

    Here is an example of just this behavior, and the response to this execrable barbarism from Syria. (There used to be comments under this post, but Col. Lang discontinued using Discus to manage comments, and they all disappeared; a worthwhile action despite this, and a cautionary note to those who outsource control of comments to SJWs such as Discus.)

    https://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2019/04/httpswwwalmasdarnewscomarticle600-year-old-aleppo-cathedral-re-consecrated-after-jihadist-destruction.html

    P.S.: Here is the link to Co. Lang's post concerning Discus, and the comments from readers.

    https://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2019/04/disqus.html
  255. @istevefan
    And Kristol is giving it back to Ben too.

    https://twitter.com/BillKristol/status/1117962603865755649

    My culture is not your prom dress

  256. Anon[135] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    A giant apartment complex under construction in downtown L.A. burned down spectacularly a few years ago.

    That turned out to be Black Lives Matter terrorism arson.

    https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-da-vinci-arson-plea-20170424-story.html

    This seems like an idiotic comparison to Notre Dame, but when the homeless-filled Pan Pacific Auditorium burned down it really hit me that the Los Angeles I grew up in was dying. The slow disappearance of all the Googie-style restaurants led up to it.

    OT

    Rod Dreher at the American Conservative sympathetically summarized a recent article by a young Englishman who converted to Islam. It’s not as crazy as you might think. It’s kind of like becoming a fan of Jordan Peterson, but with a more spiritual component. He just wanted a haven from the sex-booze-cosmopolitan-transgender-emasculated-unpatriotic hellhole that modern society has become, something with firm traditional beliefs, discipline, and patriarchal guidance and leadership. He relates how all Christian churches he visited had been co-opted (Dreher, who ended up in an Eastern Orthodox church, wished the guy had given that a try).

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/why-convert-to-islam/

    The longer original piece published on a Christian website:

    https://www.firstthings.com/article/2019/05/why-i-became-muslim

    • Replies: @Clifford Brown

    This seems like an idiotic comparison to Notre Dame,
     
    You are correct in terms of metapolitical, historical and cultural symbolism, but in terms of a massive urban fire, the L.A. DaVinci Fire was pretty bad.
    , @Peter Akuleyev
    He just wanted a haven from the sex-booze-cosmopolitan-transgender-emasculated-unpatriotic hellhole that modern society has become

    Good luck with that. From what I have seen of Islam it is mostly entirely corrupted and completely uninspiring. Iranian Mullahs are as venal as they come, most Sunni Islamic leaders seem to have IQs of 90. Saudis are complete hypocrites.

    The appeal of Islam to young men is mostly nihilistic and rage driven - the desire to take revenge against a society that doesn't need or want them. But it offers nothing constructive.

    The Catholic church has issues, but you can still find a way to God in the rich intellectual and spiritual traditions the Church as developed over thousands of years. This is true of Orthodox Judaism and Buddhism as well.
  257. @Moses

    It is also worth remembering that most people in the rest of the world do not hate the West: they want to be the West.
     
    Close Dave, but a bit off.

    Muslims certainly do not want to "become" the West. The West exalts that which they despise -- feminist pussy-hat wearers, open celebration of homosexuality, non-burqa-wearing women, interest-bearing accounts, etc.

    They just want our stuff.

    And they will get it through their ongoing demographic invasion and high reproduction rates.

    That’s still a bit off, IMO, Mose. The Moslems that have come already are getting the good stuff that the West built over the long term. Once their numbers get big and overwhelming, yes, they will still have the land, and the deteriorating infrastructure and physical plant (“there’s a lot of ruin in a nation”), but the intangible benefits of Western society that the earlier crowd came for will have already been destroyed by them and others by that time.

    • Replies: @Moses
    Fair enough Achmed -- the invaders will not be able to maintain Western material success (see: South Africa).

    But that is beside the point.

    They want our stuff, and they're grabbing it. Because we are weak and have lost all self-belief.

    They have not the forsight to see the future consequences of their actions (see: Rhodesia/Zimbabwe redistribution of wealthy farms from Whites to Blacks).

    Those who envy take, then destroy.

    It is known.

  258. @J.Ross
    "Most Muslims" aren't terrorists; by this reasoning, the US military doesn't exist, or is nothing to worry about, seeing as most Americans aren't serving in it.

    Interesting analogy, I’ll borrow it.

  259. @The Wild Geese Howard

    Mrs Macron just announced the finalists will be Daniel Libeskind and Frank Gehry. Cast your vote today!
     
    Neither!

    H.R. Giger is the only man who can do this job properly!

    Giger croaked in 2014.

    Fernando Botero’s still around, though. The slender statues in the cathedral are surely fat shaming – he’ll rectify that!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fernando_Botero#Examples_of_his_work

  260. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @MBlanc46
    St Denis was third century, three centuries before Islam.

    Well, this was a third of a century ago……maybe closer to half of one now.

  261. @J.Ross
    Whoever they are, they've been doing this for a month. Evidence is never necessary to condemn white supremacism.
    https://twitter.com/PardesSeleh/status/1117851308457725952

    Atrocities. Beggars belief. Never been to Notre Dame, but it was … Sweet Jesu, … are marvel of the Christian faith, and also, secularly, an architectural masterpiece of the high middle ages.

    I’ve never seen it in person, and many the French people are by and large shit, but this is at best, gross incompetence, and … you know. Out and about at bars and such, I heard many people talking about 911 … this pisses me off and I’ll leave it there.

  262. @PhysicistDave
    Polynikes wrote to me:

    What does a Muslim country want with a cathedral?
     
    What use do we have for the Parthenon? Or Stonehenge?

    Most human beings are not completely insane. That includes most Muslims.

    “Most human beings are not completely insane. That includes most Muslims.”

    No, but they are often irrational. Some populations more so than others.

  263. @nebulafox
    You'd be surprised. Most Muslims have a much higher opinion of Christianity than, say, Jews or most Western atheists do. In Islam, Jesus, while emphatically mortal (because there is no God but God... that was the whole point of the faith from the very beginning in 600s Arabia) is considered a forerunner prophet to Muhammad who will come again at the end days.

    I'd be cautious about jumping to conclusions here.

    Most Muslims have a much higher opinion of Christianity than, say, Jews or most Western atheists do.

    Do most muslims want Europe and her New World offshoots to remain Christian? I doubt it. Now, I don’t think Jews or atheists really want us to remain Christian either. But the former would have us convert to their faith, while the latter would not.

    Don’t get lulled into complacency with muslims. They have had their eyes on Europe since the day they came into being. And truth be told, they have gotten the better of us over the last 1400 years. They occupied parts of Spain for up to 700 years. They occupied parts of SE Europe for almost 500 years. Heck, parts of modern Greece were still under occupation a century ago.

    Add up their slave count and it is estimated they took over 1 million Europeans as slaves in the Mediterranean and about 2 million via Crimea.

    Additionally they radically altered the MENA and removed most of the vestiges of Christianity. While at the same time they have established a couple muslim nations in Europe and were recently granted a third, courtesy of the USAF.

    And don’t forget the biggest thing of all, namely, that we have allowed and even welcomed tens of millions of them to settle into Europe and its New World offshoots. We are effectively ceding them territory that they otherwise could not have taken militarily. And there is no let up in sight.

    In a way I hope muslims did burn down Notre Dame. If that is what it takes to end the madness of the immivasion, then so be it.

    • Replies: @Kylie
    "In a way I hope muslims did burn down Notre Dame. If that is what it takes to end the madness of the immivasion, then so be it."

    Except that it won't. If it turns out that Muslims did burn down Notre Dame, I bet the French use that as an excuse to crack down on the right, supposedly to prevent a backlash but in reality because they won't let a good crisis go to waste.
    , @nebulafox
    You and everybody else who responded completely missed my point. If I thought mass unassimilable Islamic immigration was wise, I wouldn't be here.

    But if you really want to find the most hostile people to *Christianity*, as a faith, you won't find them-usually-among run-of-the-mill Muslims. And the types that do tend to hate everybody who isn't of their Islamist persuasion. Jesus is, as I've mentioned, is massively respected within mainstream Islam, so most Muslims wouldn't exactly be jazzed about him being considered an insane fool, or even a "social revolutionary" without the requisite prophet status.

    Compare this to say, Judaism, where for a long time Jesus was condemned to a dung pit in hell as the son of a drunken whore and Roman soldier.

    (Now, Judaism, on the other hand: that's another story. It's really hard for someone who has never been to the Islamic World to comprehend just how deep the anti-Semitism can go sometimes. Left-wing American Jews sometimes have a hard time figuring this out because they live in a fantasy world where it is the 1960s forever.)

    > They have had their eyes on Europe since the day they came into being.

    Sometimes. Sometimes not. Islam has been around for a pretty long time.

    Mainstream Islam bequeathed to us by 'Abd al-Malik and his cronies (Muhammad's goals were a little more local and blurry) did have their eyes on conquering Europe: but that's because the Umayyad dynasty had deep routes to the Byzantine empire and naturally focused on Constantinople. The Abbasids, by contrast, focused on the east. The bloody nose the Byzantines gave the Arabs in 717 had a fair amount to do with this, but it was also because they decided to relocate to Baghdad, and because the east was just richer and more prosperous at the time. The trade routes to India, Indonesia, and China was where the money was at.

    The other major imperial Islamic threat to European civilization was, as I've mentioned, Ottoman Turkey. There was definitely a religious triumphalist dimension (which Islam as a whole has always innately had, due to the circumstances of its creation-I'll readily grant that Western bien-pensants really don't want to cop to that) to that, but if it were all about religion, the Mughals and the Safavids would have been aiding them in their conquest. The Persians even allied with European powers to provide a counterweight against Turkish power in the Islamic World. People are people. They deal with the complex realities of their time and are usually inconsistent at best at what they choose to follow.

    >Do most muslims want Europe and her New World offshoots to remain Christian? I doubt it.

    Nah, most are indifferent to what the kafirs do in their own turf. They reckon Western US and much of the USA as basically irreligious anyway. There's a strong underlying cultural contempt for Western decadence in a lot of the Islamic World, but imperial-style fantasies of en masse exporting the faith these days are relegated to specific cultures (Turkey under the AKP has a strong neo-Ottoman romantic streak in them these days, and the Saudis are the Saudis). This isn't the 1600s, let alone the 700s.

    >Additionally they radically altered the MENA and removed most of the vestiges of Christianity.

    We're getting relatively close to 1500 years after the conquests. Time to let it go. Islam is a faith of over a billion people now, a reality that just needs to be dealt with. Setting the planet on fire in the name of religious conflict is a profoundly dumb idea: and exactly what the jihadis want.

    >And don’t forget the biggest thing of all, namely, that we have allowed and even welcomed tens of millions of them to settle into Europe and its New World offshoots.

    Not in America. Western Europe is a different story. I've got little sympathy for Islamic immigrants uncomfortable with Western norms, but until the Europeans decide their cultures are worth defending and immigrants can either get on board or screw off, though, they deserve what they get.

  264. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jus' Sayin'...
    The "first daughter of the Church" began repudiating her spiritual heritage nearly three centuries ago. We're seeing the end stages of the process now. Over the course of the last century, the Christian churches of France and the rest of Europe and Britain have become spiritually empty relics, most valued for the tourist money they draw and next for their artistic and historical significance. They have become soulless monuments to a civilization whose "leaders" and the social parasites promoted by those leaders are intent on destroying.

    I've read news reports suggesting that it was deliberate government policy to staff the Notre Dame restoration teams with moooslim immigrants. This was done despite several recent, and very serious attempts by moooslim fanatics to destroy the building and its contents. I have no doubt that we will eventually discover that it was, in fact, mooslim vandalism that destroyed this building.

    But it doesn't really matter, unless this serves as a wake up call to Europe and Europeans and their descendants around the world. If things continue as they are, Europe and its settlements will become ever more barren, soulless vestiges of a once great civilization. Better to utterly destroy these vestiges so that something new and spiritually alive can grow in their place.

    My only prayer is that, whatever usurpers of European civilization may arise will extirpate the corrupt leadership and cultural parasites that brought this tragedy to pass so that neither these leaders nor parasites nor any possible descendants will survive to perpetrate another such desecration of a great civilization.

    I’ve read news reports suggesting that it was deliberate government policy to staff the Notre Dame restoration teams with moooslim immigrants. This was done despite several recent, and very serious attempts by moooslim fanatics to destroy the building and its contents. I have no doubt that we will eventually discover that it was, in fact, mooslim vandalism that destroyed this building.

    Maybe, maybe not. My guess is that fire would not have made the muzzies get their rocks off nearly as well as a good blast. Like the now bought off IRA, Muzzies really like to make stuff go kaboom.

    • Replies: @a reader

    Muzzies really like to make stuff go kaboom.
     
    Grlz* already tried it 3 years ago.

    *They surprisingly failed.
  265. Anonymous[139] • Disclaimer says:
    @istevefan
    https://twitter.com/helenelamm/status/1117857999622529033

    The LARPing muh-Traditional Catholic types are among the most insufferable people on Twitter. You know this one’s especially bad because she uses “Our Lady”. Romanism was the original Globalist and Multicultural ideology, no matter how hard these types try to retcon things.

    • Replies: @utu
    Romanism was the original Globalist and Multicultural ideology - that kept as safe from Masons, Jews and Communists for over 18 hundred years.
  266. @Anon
    This seems like an idiotic comparison to Notre Dame, but when the homeless-filled Pan Pacific Auditorium burned down it really hit me that the Los Angeles I grew up in was dying. The slow disappearance of all the Googie-style restaurants led up to it.

    OT

    Rod Dreher at the American Conservative sympathetically summarized a recent article by a young Englishman who converted to Islam. It's not as crazy as you might think. It's kind of like becoming a fan of Jordan Peterson, but with a more spiritual component. He just wanted a haven from the sex-booze-cosmopolitan-transgender-emasculated-unpatriotic hellhole that modern society has become, something with firm traditional beliefs, discipline, and patriarchal guidance and leadership. He relates how all Christian churches he visited had been co-opted (Dreher, who ended up in an Eastern Orthodox church, wished the guy had given that a try).

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/why-convert-to-islam/

    The longer original piece published on a Christian website:

    https://www.firstthings.com/article/2019/05/why-i-became-muslim

    This seems like an idiotic comparison to Notre Dame,

    You are correct in terms of metapolitical, historical and cultural symbolism, but in terms of a massive urban fire, the L.A. DaVinci Fire was pretty bad.

  267. @Kevin O'Keeffe

    I visited ND 2 weeks ago. The security guards were African-Africans.
     
    You just mean they were Black, right? I mean, they weren't from the USA, correct? It's a weird world, so there's a possibility you meant exactly what you typed, but I doubt it.

    Dude, he meant they were black people straight from Africa.

  268. @Muse
    This is a horrific cultural loss. Some of the comments speculating that Muslim workers or someone else intentionally set fire to Notre Dame are shameful. Wait for the facts.

    These kinds of accidental fires happen frequently. As an example, see the Chicago Pilgrim Baptist Church below.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilgrim_Baptist_Church

    Here is another church fire on the Southside of Chicago:

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/multiple-alarm-fire-scorches-landmark-chicago-church-shrine-of-christ-the-king-sovereign-priest/

    Notre Dame has a leaded roof, which requires heat to melt the lead when repairing the roof. That might have been the cause. Maybe it was something else. No doubt the construction workers will report what happened on their shift.

    “Some of the comments speculating that Muslim workers or someone else intentionally set fire to Notre Dame are shameful. Wait for the facts.”

    Followed by a bunch of blind speculation.

  269. @Reg Cæsar

    France will restore it. They have no choice.
     
    Mrs Macron just announced the finalists will be Daniel Libeskind and Frank Gehry. Cast your vote today!

    You took the words right out of my mouth.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Ah yes, the old toggle top. Great fun at the range or for plinking, or in .30 caliber with the long barrel squirrel and rabbit collector....but the last firearm of the modern world you'd want to bet your life on.

    The Hi Power and Radom were the best 9mm pistols of the era, but the 1911 reigns supreme. A more modern variant with the feed ramp on the barrel that can be switched between 9mm/.38 Super/10mm/.45 ACP would be even better.

    The Hi Power is a great design but 9mm doesn't cut it. I think the perfect solution for the Hi Power was worked out by Guns & Ammo magazine in the late 70s. They designed a ~10mm cartridge that was the largest a Browning Hi Power could safely handle based on belted Weatherby brass. That, I am certain, is where Jeff Cooper (pbuh) got the idea for the Bren Ten. The G&A solution was better in that any stock Hi-Power could be converted and converted back to 9mm easily. And with a stiffer spring they were safe to shoot with the black case 9mm buzzgun ammo that was cheap then but not safe in most stock 9mm pistols. That stuff is why the 9mm cylinder for .357 Ruger Blackhawks was invented. IIRC it was Berdan primed but very cheap.

    Israeli? German? Don't remember where it came from but I nailed an immense, aggressive, feral and possibly rabid dog with one round out of said Blackhawk and she crumped like I had hit her with a Nitro Express round. I hate shooting dogs because, among other reasons, usually they let out a horrifying death howl, but this bitch (turned out not to have been rabid but had attacked a couple of kids who had to get the rabies shot series) was dead before she hit the ground.

    Probably the reason the G&A design failed was because NIH syndrome coupled with the ludicrous prices Weatherby gets for brass. RCBS still has the dies available if I am not mistaken.
  270. @Buffalo Joe
    I visited Notre Dame years ago and took Communion there, building was splendiferous and awe inspiring. There is a weekly TV show called "Ancient Aliens" where they contribute the construction of every notable edifice, such as Ankor Wats or Machu Pichu, to Aliens. But never the cathedrals of Europe. The Cathredal across the European Continent are, to me, the greatest example of European glory. So sad to see Notre Dame fall.

    Looking like fall is an overstatement. Heroic work by French firefighters and their brave chaplain.

  271. @istevefan

    Most Muslims have a much higher opinion of Christianity than, say, Jews or most Western atheists do.
     
    Do most muslims want Europe and her New World offshoots to remain Christian? I doubt it. Now, I don't think Jews or atheists really want us to remain Christian either. But the former would have us convert to their faith, while the latter would not.

    Don't get lulled into complacency with muslims. They have had their eyes on Europe since the day they came into being. And truth be told, they have gotten the better of us over the last 1400 years. They occupied parts of Spain for up to 700 years. They occupied parts of SE Europe for almost 500 years. Heck, parts of modern Greece were still under occupation a century ago.

    Add up their slave count and it is estimated they took over 1 million Europeans as slaves in the Mediterranean and about 2 million via Crimea.

    Additionally they radically altered the MENA and removed most of the vestiges of Christianity. While at the same time they have established a couple muslim nations in Europe and were recently granted a third, courtesy of the USAF.

    And don't forget the biggest thing of all, namely, that we have allowed and even welcomed tens of millions of them to settle into Europe and its New World offshoots. We are effectively ceding them territory that they otherwise could not have taken militarily. And there is no let up in sight.

    In a way I hope muslims did burn down Notre Dame. If that is what it takes to end the madness of the immivasion, then so be it.

    “In a way I hope muslims did burn down Notre Dame. If that is what it takes to end the madness of the immivasion, then so be it.”

    Except that it won’t. If it turns out that Muslims did burn down Notre Dame, I bet the French use that as an excuse to crack down on the right, supposedly to prevent a backlash but in reality because they won’t let a good crisis go to waste.

    • Agree: Liza
  272. I still think it is suspicious.

    But speaking of fire suppression, I think lightning rods were adopted pretty widely on old churches in Europe. It is curious that there is nothing else. Like I am surprised they don’t have some sort of paint or stain they could put on wood, something like boric acid, which is used in cellulose insulation, if I recall.

  273. @Jim Lahey
    Growing up I often visited the cathedral in Covington, KY (why does that city sound familiar?). Its facade is a very close replica of that of Notre Dame de Paris
    .
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedral_Basilica_of_the_Assumption_(Covington,_Kentucky)

    Covington has two spectacular cathedrals. Catholic stonemasons fleeing Bismarck. One of my ancestors was a French stonemason from that era.

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    And who was he fleeing?

    Napoleon III?
  274. @istevefan
    And Kristol is giving it back to Ben too.

    https://twitter.com/BillKristol/status/1117962603865755649

    Dude’s been living in hell. It’s getting to him.

  275. Muslims likely burned it down. It’s what they do. Scorpion, frog.

    Macron will likely replace the ruins with a mosque. All the Jacinda Arderns will approve.

  276. • Replies: @Desiderius
    The link goes to Houellebecq offering thoughts prescient as usual including a few real gems.
  277. @Achmed E. Newman
    That's still a bit off, IMO, Mose. The Moslems that have come already are getting the good stuff that the West built over the long term. Once their numbers get big and overwhelming, yes, they will still have the land, and the deteriorating infrastructure and physical plant ("there's a lot of ruin in a nation"), but the intangible benefits of Western society that the earlier crowd came for will have already been destroyed by them and others by that time.

    Fair enough Achmed — the invaders will not be able to maintain Western material success (see: South Africa).

    But that is beside the point.

    They want our stuff, and they’re grabbing it. Because we are weak and have lost all self-belief.

    They have not the forsight to see the future consequences of their actions (see: Rhodesia/Zimbabwe redistribution of wealthy farms from Whites to Blacks).

    Those who envy take, then destroy.

    It is known.

    • Agree: Achmed E. Newman
  278. @istevefan
    Trump was mocked for this tweet:
    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1117844987293487104


    But, here is an example of such a tactic being used:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wy5w4Xg8U7Q

    Dog bites man. Shapiro posted a particularly stupid tweet mocking Trump before he deleted it.

    You’d think the three-hundredth time this happened they’d check themselves.

    You’d be wrong. Incredible social pressure to signal distance from Trump. Never seen anything like it.

  279. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Clifford Brown
    You took the words right out of my mouth.

    https://media.giphy.com/media/kDBbGF05srPTq/giphy.mp4

    Ah yes, the old toggle top. Great fun at the range or for plinking, or in .30 caliber with the long barrel squirrel and rabbit collector….but the last firearm of the modern world you’d want to bet your life on.

    The Hi Power and Radom were the best 9mm pistols of the era, but the 1911 reigns supreme. A more modern variant with the feed ramp on the barrel that can be switched between 9mm/.38 Super/10mm/.45 ACP would be even better.

    The Hi Power is a great design but 9mm doesn’t cut it. I think the perfect solution for the Hi Power was worked out by Guns & Ammo magazine in the late 70s. They designed a ~10mm cartridge that was the largest a Browning Hi Power could safely handle based on belted Weatherby brass. That, I am certain, is where Jeff Cooper (pbuh) got the idea for the Bren Ten. The G&A solution was better in that any stock Hi-Power could be converted and converted back to 9mm easily. And with a stiffer spring they were safe to shoot with the black case 9mm buzzgun ammo that was cheap then but not safe in most stock 9mm pistols. That stuff is why the 9mm cylinder for .357 Ruger Blackhawks was invented. IIRC it was Berdan primed but very cheap.

    Israeli? German? Don’t remember where it came from but I nailed an immense, aggressive, feral and possibly rabid dog with one round out of said Blackhawk and she crumped like I had hit her with a Nitro Express round. I hate shooting dogs because, among other reasons, usually they let out a horrifying death howl, but this bitch (turned out not to have been rabid but had attacked a couple of kids who had to get the rabies shot series) was dead before she hit the ground.

    Probably the reason the G&A design failed was because NIH syndrome coupled with the ludicrous prices Weatherby gets for brass. RCBS still has the dies available if I am not mistaken.

  280. anon[357] • Disclaimer says:
    @notanon
    yes - however i'm thinking about your thing about countries like Turkey where everyone believe in conspiracy theories.

    i'm coming to the view that when a population completely loses faith in the truthfulness of their political-media class they end up believing the worst possible explanation for any event.

    so imo the key metric here is not what actually happened but if it was Muslim arson what is the chance the French media-political class would allow it to be reported? my guess is zero and that zero is why people will come to believe it was muslim arson (even if it wasn't).

    i’m coming to the view that when a population completely loses faith in the truthfulness of their political-media class they end up believing the worst possible explanation for any event.

    And moreover it is very reasonable to assume the worst of people who have betrayed your trust. If Bernie Madofff is trying to sell me stock, I will not bother listening to his pitch. I will assume he is a liar and brush him off. Just so the Democrats and Republicans.

  281. @PhysicistDave
    Cagey Beast asked:

    Why are there people on Twitter now who express sadness at Notre Dame burning when they work to destroy the West in all other circumstances?
     
    Becuase, in the end, they know they are members of a civilization, a unique civilization that, for all its flaws, has the most spectacular achievements in human history.

    All the white-bashing, all the attacks on Western civilization, are really just petty little scams aimed at increasing their power, indeed, in some cases, just at getting a bit more of the loot into their own personal bank accounts .

    It is also worth remembering that most people in the rest of the world do not hate the West: they want to be the West.

    The coming together around this tragedy reminds us that sometimes sanity wins out.

    All the white-bashing, all the attacks on Western civilization, are really just petty little scams aimed at increasing their power, indeed, in some cases, just at getting a bit more of the loot into their own personal bank accounts.

    It isn’t just motivated by a lust for money or power – although that is part of it. There is also a lot of deep-seated hatred behind it.

  282. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    Mrs Macron just announced the finalists will be Daniel Libeskind and Frank Gehry. Cast your vote today!
     
    Neither!

    H.R. Giger is the only man who can do this job properly!

    Giger was, if nothing else, unique. Would have loved to met him.

  283. @Jack D
    He suggested dropping water from a plane - the French fire service replied that this would damage the structure - they're probably right but at this point it looks like a total loss so maybe he was right - perhaps a damaged structure is better than no structure. Sometimes it takes some "out of the box" thinking by someone who is not an "expert" to come up with the right answer.

    Our fire hoses perhaps pump a little more than Roman bucket brigades but judging by the results are little more effective. You would think that with all the technology that we have that firefighting would have advanced beyond "pour water on it". One a structure is fully involved, with current technology the best that they can do seems to keep the fire from spreading to nearby buildings and sometimes not even that. Near where I live a large block square apt. complex under construction caught fire due to a spark from a welder's torch. Not only did it burn to the ground but it set the neighboring occupied complex on fire and burned that to the ground too.

    Dropping tons of water out of a plane on a structure that was not designed to withstand such an impact is moronic.

    Calling this sort of prima facie nonsense “out-of-the-box-thinking” is moronic, too.

    But then we had to destroy the village in order to save it, de we not?

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    What's moronic is officials who cannot be bothered to protect their patrimony taking time to maintain the "Trump is always stupid" order. Any time Trump says anything, sensible or otherwise, establishment coffee-fetchers are under orders to promptly call him an idiot. The effect is to grey out their scripted and unwavering outrage.
    , @Jack D
    See the video at #431. Looks highly effective to me and does not appear to damage the structure. It appears to snuff out the fire instantly. The roof of a building is designed to withstand a deluge of rain - it shouldn't be hard to figure out how much water that is and adjust the altitude and speed of the aircraft and the rate of release to be less than the carrying capacity of the roof.

    Fire departments have been around for a long time and they are one of those places where people tend to get mired in tradition - we do it this way because we have always done it this way. Usually these traditions reflect the hard won lessons of the past and it's generally good to stick to them and not try to reinvent the wheel on a daily basis. But sometimes (such as on 9/11) these traditions backfire on you because you are in a situation that is way outside the usual parameters - you need to keep your mind open to the question of whether you are in such a situation and need to start improvising because the usual way is not going to work.

    , @Desiderius

    prima facie nonsense
     
    If it were prima facie, you wouldn't have felt compelled to offer your (non-)evidence.

    The saying goes that if you're going to strike at the king, you'd best kill him, yet you strike and strike and strike with your dull knives and land nary a scratch all the while strutting around like you're some kind of hero.

    Cervantes could never have imagined such a spectacle.
    , @Chrisnonymous
    The village is destroyed? Gosh, you are thin-skinned.
  284. @Chrisnonymous
    My general feeling is that if this were the work of Muslim terrorists, they would have claimed responsibility for it already. I am guessing this some sort of incompetence. However, back maybe 10 years ago, I read an article about a developer in Paris who wanted to tear down Notre Dame and build high-end apartment complexes. His argument was that the cathedral no longer served enough people to justify taking up its valuable real estate. So, it's possible there was something nefarious going on.

    When I was a small boy, my father had a colleague in art history who traveled to Paris every summer just to investigate and document the small features of the facade of Notre Dame. That cathedral must be one of the most-documented architectural structures in the world.

    The Temple of the Golden Pavilion in Japan was burned down in the 1950s. It took 5-6 years for it to be rebuilt, but as far as I know, it was rebuilt to exactly its previous condition. I think the actual construction took about a year, so I assume the Japanese spent about 5 years doing research to make sure they go it right.

    When the World Trade Center reconstruction was first being discussed, one columnist in National Review (this was back before the Defenestration of Derb, when I was still reading it) said the WTC should be rebuilt exactly, but with the addition of Vulcan cannons mounted on the roof. That was pretty much my feeling as well. In the actual event, we ended up with a horrible wound in the center of New York City that (1) capitulates to the perpetrators by letting their destruction stand (so to speak) and (2) invites Americans to keep the feelz going instead of rebuilding and getting back to work. Plus, it took forever to finish.

    I fear the French will not opt for the Japanese or American solutions but will instead do something that combines the ruins from this fire with a modernist or post-modernist building a la I.M. Pei's glass Louvre Pyramid. Imagine Notre Dame's two towers with the Soumaya Museum rising up behind them in place of the former spire!

    My general feeling is that if this were the work of Muslim terrorists, they would have claimed responsibility for it already.

    i doubt the church burnings in France are consciously jihadist – just ethnic hatred.

  285. I always thought the cathedral in Cologne was more impressive looking – much more “gothicky”, if you will.

    It’s a shame about Notre Dame. I had no idea the roof was supported by timbers. 800 years is pretty old for a wooden structure Not many survive that long.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Mr. Anon, I got out my copy of cathedral building, simple text titled "Cathedral" and relearned that the vaulted ceiling were supported by wooden lagging during construction and latter removed. But the peaked roofs were all supported by wooden trusses. The Basillica of our Lady of victory in nearby Lackawanna, NY, has it's roofs supported by a wrought iron frame. There was a documentory on local TV about it's construction.
  286. anon[293] • Disclaimer says:

    “Trump was mocked for this tweet”

    The Tweet was pretty innocuous. Didn’t stop CNN’s resident genius Erin Burnett from mouthing off about it for hate clicks in a segment that made its way into YouTube’s breaking news listing; so much for trusted news. Shameless buffoon (Burnett). YouTube should remove the video listing and suspend CNN’s account for that.

  287. @Desiderius
    From our man on the scene:

    https://www.firstthings.com/article/2019/05/restoration

    The link goes to Houellebecq offering thoughts prescient as usual including a few real gems.

  288. Some good news out of Europe: Finland’s pro-sovereignty Finn’s Party did smashingly well in the recent general election.
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-15/finland-s-nail-biter-election-sets-stage-for-tough-talks-q-a

    The Social Democrats got 40 seats, the Finns Party 39 and the National Coalition 38. The race was tight to the very end, with the Social Democrats winning by a narrower margin than polls suggested and the anti-immigration group posting a surprisingly strong showing. Outgoing Prime Minister Juha Sipila’s Center Party was punished by voters, and Blue Reform, the more moderate faction that splintered from the Finns in 2017, was wiped out.

  289. I have some Catholic neighbours, I will have to ask them later why God did not simply make it rain to put out the fire.

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
    "I have some Catholic neighbours, I will have to ask them later why God did not simply make it rain to put out the fire." - -


    - - I frankly don't know and am a protestant, sorry. My guess is: God thinks well about all of mankind, be they more or less gifted. - Ah - and then this: Had God sent rain - where would you have ended up, without your ages-old question to ask?

    , @notanon

    why God did not simply make it rain to put out the fire
     
    if God judges behavior then people need to be free to choose.

    you may not agree with the premise but what follows is logically consistent.
    , @Pericles
    When you have them tied up in your basement?
  290. @t
    I doubt on Protestant in a thousand knows what the Edict of Fontainebleau was but Jews can talk about 1260 without looking it up.

    We had St. Bart’s. French geography doesn’t lend itself well to pluralism.

  291. @Cloudbuster
    There is literally nothing that Trump can say that some people won't declare monstrous.

    For the most part when Trump talks he sounds and gestures like a fussy queen from some 1970s movie about aging homosexuals. His tweets sound more like a senile uncle. How he still has defenders is amazing. I suppose it says something about his opponents and the lack of quality leadership in the country.

    • Replies: @Moses
    Are you queer-shaming?
    , @Desiderius

    How he still has defenders is amazing.
     
    He doesn't.

    Like Trump, we recognize that there is no defense against bad faith on this scale, so offense it is, in all senses of the word.
    , @Ibound1
    Has he invaded anyone? Has he “surged” anywhere? Our last few geniuses were unable to manage that.
  292. @J.Ross
    Muslims on social media are posting smiling faces and talking about divine justice.
    https://postimg.cc/grS0qsD5
    A day ago the cathedral of St Denis was desecrated; St Denis is of course tied to the repulse of Muslims in Medieval Europe.

    Oriflamme. the Sacred Banner of St Denis
    Combat without quarter/mercy/ransom/
    Ye that makes sense to me

  293. @Peter Akuleyev
    For the most part when Trump talks he sounds and gestures like a fussy queen from some 1970s movie about aging homosexuals. His tweets sound more like a senile uncle. How he still has defenders is amazing. I suppose it says something about his opponents and the lack of quality leadership in the country.

    Are you queer-shaming?

  294. ymous[206]
    “Muslim’s don’t generally attempt to destroy Christian holy sites. Jesus is revered in Islam.”

    Oh really? There are hundreds of instances in Europe over the last year alone.
    As in all wars, symbolic icons of the enemy are prime targets. There was one only yesterday if I recall. I’m sure about 10 minutes of research could unearth thousands more instances of desecration over the centuries.
    Mohammed was eager to claim other belief systems as subservient to his own. It makes it far easier to establish temporary truces – which are just that: temporary. Ultimately, his system cannot tolerate anything beyond his own epileptic vision of the cosmos.

  295. Notre Dame burns. It’s not destroyed by lightning, earthquake, tornado, tsunami, or meteor strike, but almost certainly by some careless, thoughtless act of man.

    What a perfect metaphor for the way the leaders of the West are pissing away our proud, ancient heritage. It breaks down, of course, with the arrival of the firefighters. If the metaphor worked perfectly Macron would have had all the firefighters arrested and fired, and then denounced the water and firehoses as racist microaggressions against the diversity of elements.

  296. @Andy
    somewhat off-topic, here is a reasonable essay on immigration by Andrew Sullivan:

    http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/04/andrew-sullivan-the-opportunity-of-white-anxiety.html?utm_medium=s1&utm_source=tw&utm_campaign=di

    Andrew’s approval of the Border Wall is perceptive, and telling: “Merely as a symbol of border control, it could calm people down, curtail some of the hysteria, and dampen the appeal of the far right”.

    This is exactly why I oppose the Wall. It will be a symbol, and only a symbol, allowing the politicians to do nothing. A Wall is no substitute for vigilance and harshly punishing the people who employ illegal aliens and make this country an attractive destination for them.

    • Agree: Desiderius
  297. @Anon
    This seems like an idiotic comparison to Notre Dame, but when the homeless-filled Pan Pacific Auditorium burned down it really hit me that the Los Angeles I grew up in was dying. The slow disappearance of all the Googie-style restaurants led up to it.

    OT

    Rod Dreher at the American Conservative sympathetically summarized a recent article by a young Englishman who converted to Islam. It's not as crazy as you might think. It's kind of like becoming a fan of Jordan Peterson, but with a more spiritual component. He just wanted a haven from the sex-booze-cosmopolitan-transgender-emasculated-unpatriotic hellhole that modern society has become, something with firm traditional beliefs, discipline, and patriarchal guidance and leadership. He relates how all Christian churches he visited had been co-opted (Dreher, who ended up in an Eastern Orthodox church, wished the guy had given that a try).

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/why-convert-to-islam/

    The longer original piece published on a Christian website:

    https://www.firstthings.com/article/2019/05/why-i-became-muslim

    He just wanted a haven from the sex-booze-cosmopolitan-transgender-emasculated-unpatriotic hellhole that modern society has become

    Good luck with that. From what I have seen of Islam it is mostly entirely corrupted and completely uninspiring. Iranian Mullahs are as venal as they come, most Sunni Islamic leaders seem to have IQs of 90. Saudis are complete hypocrites.

    The appeal of Islam to young men is mostly nihilistic and rage driven – the desire to take revenge against a society that doesn’t need or want them. But it offers nothing constructive.

    The Catholic church has issues, but you can still find a way to God in the rich intellectual and spiritual traditions the Church as developed over thousands of years. This is true of Orthodox Judaism and Buddhism as well.

    • Agree: Ibound1
  298. @J.Ross
    "Most Muslims" aren't terrorists; by this reasoning, the US military doesn't exist, or is nothing to worry about, seeing as most Americans aren't serving in it.

    “Most Muslims” aren’t terrorists; by this reasoning, the US military doesn’t exist, or is nothing to worry about, seeing as most Americans aren’t serving in it.

    First rate analogy. The Chinese concur…

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6924349/China-using-AI-identify-Uighurs-China-NYT.html

  299. @t
    I doubt on Protestant in a thousand knows what the Edict of Fontainebleau was but Jews can talk about 1260 without looking it up.

    In my experience, Jews don’t know much about Jewish medieval history.

  300. @Anonymous
    The LARPing muh-Traditional Catholic types are among the most insufferable people on Twitter. You know this one's especially bad because she uses "Our Lady". Romanism was the original Globalist and Multicultural ideology, no matter how hard these types try to retcon things.

    Romanism was the original Globalist and Multicultural ideology – that kept as safe from Masons, Jews and Communists for over 18 hundred years.

  301. SF says:
    @Jack D
    He suggested dropping water from a plane - the French fire service replied that this would damage the structure - they're probably right but at this point it looks like a total loss so maybe he was right - perhaps a damaged structure is better than no structure. Sometimes it takes some "out of the box" thinking by someone who is not an "expert" to come up with the right answer.

    Our fire hoses perhaps pump a little more than Roman bucket brigades but judging by the results are little more effective. You would think that with all the technology that we have that firefighting would have advanced beyond "pour water on it". One a structure is fully involved, with current technology the best that they can do seems to keep the fire from spreading to nearby buildings and sometimes not even that. Near where I live a large block square apt. complex under construction caught fire due to a spark from a welder's torch. Not only did it burn to the ground but it set the neighboring occupied complex on fire and burned that to the ground too.

    I spent some time working on wildland fires back in the day. Heavy Helicopters probably would have been useful. They can spray to some extent rather than just drop a water bomb, and could direct the water much better than a fixed wing aircraft. The fire hoses seemed on the videos from the scene to be not too effective. The building is about 130 feet tall, or was. It has been 17 years since I was there, but it is hard to imagine a building that is mainly stone and concrete burning that intensively. I wouldn’t rule out arson.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    The part that was stone (no concrete except for the mortar and that was a mistake - modern cement mortar is harder than the stone and was causing damage) did not burn for the most part. If you notice, the inner ceiling and outer roofline of Notre Dame (of almost every cathedral) do not coincide - on the inside you see gothic stone vaulting and on the outside there was a pointy pitched A roof. The attic space in between (which normally is never seen by the public) was filled with so many 800 year old massive structural timbers holding up the roof that it was called "the forest". Apparently of all the things that were neglected on the Cathedral the roof was not one of them so as a consequence the timbers were bone dry. Even the spire was made from lead covered wood. The wood is what burned like crazy.
    , @istevefan
    Watch this clip of a small helicopter dousing an apartment fire. Given the nearby river, it would have been easy for such helicopters to dip their buckets and then make continuous drops. And given the size of the helicopter and the height of the drop, the water stream would not have been as harsh as what you have when a large C-130 dumps several times the amount of water at a greater height and speed.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wy5w4Xg8U7Q
    , @Jack D
    There don't seem to be many photos of the "forest" of Notre Dame but here's one:

    https://bigmemes.funnyjunk.com/pictures/The+frame+of+notredame+nicknamed+the+forest+made+out+of_e5ea8b_7043967.jpg

    This looks like just a small section - the rounded east end of the Cathedral (the end opposite the two towers) but the network of timbers would have covered the entire roof.
  302. @istevefan

    Most Muslims have a much higher opinion of Christianity than, say, Jews or most Western atheists do.
     
    Do most muslims want Europe and her New World offshoots to remain Christian? I doubt it. Now, I don't think Jews or atheists really want us to remain Christian either. But the former would have us convert to their faith, while the latter would not.

    Don't get lulled into complacency with muslims. They have had their eyes on Europe since the day they came into being. And truth be told, they have gotten the better of us over the last 1400 years. They occupied parts of Spain for up to 700 years. They occupied parts of SE Europe for almost 500 years. Heck, parts of modern Greece were still under occupation a century ago.

    Add up their slave count and it is estimated they took over 1 million Europeans as slaves in the Mediterranean and about 2 million via Crimea.

    Additionally they radically altered the MENA and removed most of the vestiges of Christianity. While at the same time they have established a couple muslim nations in Europe and were recently granted a third, courtesy of the USAF.

    And don't forget the biggest thing of all, namely, that we have allowed and even welcomed tens of millions of them to settle into Europe and its New World offshoots. We are effectively ceding them territory that they otherwise could not have taken militarily. And there is no let up in sight.

    In a way I hope muslims did burn down Notre Dame. If that is what it takes to end the madness of the immivasion, then so be it.

    You and everybody else who responded completely missed my point. If I thought mass unassimilable Islamic immigration was wise, I wouldn’t be here.

    But if you really want to find the most hostile people to *Christianity*, as a faith, you won’t find them-usually-among run-of-the-mill Muslims. And the types that do tend to hate everybody who isn’t of their Islamist persuasion. Jesus is, as I’ve mentioned, is massively respected within mainstream Islam, so most Muslims wouldn’t exactly be jazzed about him being considered an insane fool, or even a “social revolutionary” without the requisite prophet status.

    Compare this to say, Judaism, where for a long time Jesus was condemned to a dung pit in hell as the son of a drunken whore and Roman soldier.

    (Now, Judaism, on the other hand: that’s another story. It’s really hard for someone who has never been to the Islamic World to comprehend just how deep the anti-Semitism can go sometimes. Left-wing American Jews sometimes have a hard time figuring this out because they live in a fantasy world where it is the 1960s forever.)

    > They have had their eyes on Europe since the day they came into being.

    Sometimes. Sometimes not. Islam has been around for a pretty long time.

    Mainstream Islam bequeathed to us by ‘Abd al-Malik and his cronies (Muhammad’s goals were a little more local and blurry) did have their eyes on conquering Europe: but that’s because the Umayyad dynasty had deep routes to the Byzantine empire and naturally focused on Constantinople. The Abbasids, by contrast, focused on the east. The bloody nose the Byzantines gave the Arabs in 717 had a fair amount to do with this, but it was also because they decided to relocate to Baghdad, and because the east was just richer and more prosperous at the time. The trade routes to India, Indonesia, and China was where the money was at.

    The other major imperial Islamic threat to European civilization was, as I’ve mentioned, Ottoman Turkey. There was definitely a religious triumphalist dimension (which Islam as a whole has always innately had, due to the circumstances of its creation-I’ll readily grant that Western bien-pensants really don’t want to cop to that) to that, but if it were all about religion, the Mughals and the Safavids would have been aiding them in their conquest. The Persians even allied with European powers to provide a counterweight against Turkish power in the Islamic World. People are people. They deal with the complex realities of their time and are usually inconsistent at best at what they choose to follow.

    >Do most muslims want Europe and her New World offshoots to remain Christian? I doubt it.

    Nah, most are indifferent to what the kafirs do in their own turf. They reckon Western US and much of the USA as basically irreligious anyway. There’s a strong underlying cultural contempt for Western decadence in a lot of the Islamic World, but imperial-style fantasies of en masse exporting the faith these days are relegated to specific cultures (Turkey under the AKP has a strong neo-Ottoman romantic streak in them these days, and the Saudis are the Saudis). This isn’t the 1600s, let alone the 700s.

    >Additionally they radically altered the MENA and removed most of the vestiges of Christianity.

    We’re getting relatively close to 1500 years after the conquests. Time to let it go. Islam is a faith of over a billion people now, a reality that just needs to be dealt with. Setting the planet on fire in the name of religious conflict is a profoundly dumb idea: and exactly what the jihadis want.

    >And don’t forget the biggest thing of all, namely, that we have allowed and even welcomed tens of millions of them to settle into Europe and its New World offshoots.

    Not in America. Western Europe is a different story. I’ve got little sympathy for Islamic immigrants uncomfortable with Western norms, but until the Europeans decide their cultures are worth defending and immigrants can either get on board or screw off, though, they deserve what they get.

    • Agree: Daniel H, PhysicistDave
    • Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard
    I'm sorry but your long-winded post only reveals that you've completely missed the point of Islam.
    , @Ibound1
    Jesus is not respected in the Muslim world at all. A fictional character named Issa, invented by Muhammad, who talked in the cradle, and who was never crucified - and was a Muslim - is respected as a prophet in the Muslim world. If Christians called Muhammad Moh, said he was a Christian, and said he was calling people back to Christianity, would Muslims say Muhammad was “massively respected” in the Muslim world?
    , @bomag

    But if you really want to find the most hostile people to *Christianity* as a faith, you won’t find them,usually,among run of the mill Muslims.

    Islam has been around for a pretty long time.

    Europeans... deserve what they get.
     
    Too blasé. Islam buries science and intellectual traditions. At least Atheism and Judaism carries on those aspects (maybe).

    Human society must resist giving in to such entropy. Your neighbor's house and household are at risk of falling to the elements, but it is no comfort when such happens, in as far as it reduces your support community.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    We’re getting relatively close to 1500 years after the conquests. Time to let it go.
     
    But 70 years after losing 0.1% of your territory, that's another story?
    , @Peter Akuleyev
    What people in the West often ignore, both people who hate Islam and people who romanticize it, is that Islam on its home turf is increasingly subject to the same secular pressures and decay that Christianity faces in the West. The number of regular mosque going Muslims has been declining steadily. A lot of patriarchal traditions are breaking down under the impact of technology and the internet. Sexual mores are being corrupted by the internet. Islam is increasingly an ethnic badge people wear as a source of self-esteem - particularly by Muslims who live in the West and have no real hope of fitting in. But the idea that Europeans would convert en masse to Islam would actually be anathema to most immigrants if they gave the idea 5 seconds deep thought (which, admittedly, they probably don't). If all the elites in Germany converted to Islam then a poorly educated Turkish wanna-be rapper in Duisburg would end up being just as much a loser in Germany as he would be back home in Bursa or Erdigli.
    , @istevefan

    You and everybody else who responded completely missed my point. If I thought mass unassimilable Islamic immigration was wise, I wouldn’t be here.
     
    What was the purpose of your point? Were you trying to tell us that muslims consider Jesus to be a prophet while Jews and atheists have a high disregard for him? And therefore muslims are innately friendlier to Christians than are Jews and atheists?

    Fine, we all know that Jesus is a prophet to them. But that still leaves us with the problem that we follow Jesus, and thus deviate massively from their teachings. Look at how the Sunnis react towards the Shia. Both of them are ostensibly of the same faith. If their disagreement is just over the successor, how do they really feel about a people who follow, in their eyes, the wrong prophet?

    Your point in this day and age would be like someone telling the North American Indians that the English really like your culture. In fact they'd like to use likenesses of your people as representations for their sports teams and institutions because they really admire the fighting spirit of your people.

    Though the English might have had, and still do have, respect and admiration for the Native Americans, it did not entice them to join that culture, nor refrain them from replacing it.

    We’re getting relatively close to 1500 years after the conquests.
     
    Tell that to the Serbians who just lost Kosovo. Tell that to the Greeks of Cyprus. Tell it to the ME Christians who have just recently gone through yet another round of ethnic cleansing. Additionally, as I have pointed out before, I know a Greek gentleman still alive today who was born in a town that was still under muslim occupation just 5 years before his birth. The conquests are not 1500 years old and in some cases are ongoing.

    Not in America. Western Europe is a different story.
     
    Really? Though it is true Europe is further along in muslim migration, even though we are further along in overall third world migration, the USA has nearly doubled its population of muslims since 9-11. We have significantly more muslims today than pre-911.

    More importantly there are no controls in place to prevent that number from climbing even higher. There is no statute that says to put a cap on their presence at 1 %, 2%, 10% or higher. So to look at their numbers and believe all is well because they are still under 2% is not wise.

    I imagine there were men of the Wampanoag who assured others at one time that the Puritans were only 1 percent of the population. How did that work out?
    , @Jack D

    Compare this to say, Judaism, where for a long time Jesus was condemned to a dung pit in hell as the son of a drunken whore and Roman soldier.
     
    This is not an accurate representation of the Jewish view of Jesus, ever. To the extent that Jews even believe that there is a hell (it's not an important part of the theology), there are no dung pits, only fire and a soul only stays there for 12 months after death. While there is some speculation in Jewish sources that Jesus was fathered as a result of a rape by a Roman soldier (which is frankly more believable than the story that he is the product of virgin birth), I know of no sources that portray Mary as a drunk. Jews also deny that Jesus arose from the dead and ascended bodily to heaven and consider the various "miracles" that Jesus allegedly performed as magic tricks. These seem to be efforts to provide reasonable explanations for the otherwise impossible events described in the New Testament. You wouldn't expect Jews to accept the magical aspects of the Jesus story any more than Christians accept that the stories of the pagan gods are literally true.
    , @bc
    Thanks for an informed view of Islam vis à vis the West. Shortly after 9/11, I undertook a cursory survey of Islam and the Middle East with the idea of understanding the "other side", and came away with the impression that you also have given--monolithic Islam is an inchoate, ahistorical model not very useful in combatting terrorism or immigration/invasion.
  303. @Moses

    It is also worth remembering that most people in the rest of the world do not hate the West: they want to be the West.
     
    Close Dave, but a bit off.

    Muslims certainly do not want to "become" the West. The West exalts that which they despise -- feminist pussy-hat wearers, open celebration of homosexuality, non-burqa-wearing women, interest-bearing accounts, etc.

    They just want our stuff.

    And they will get it through their ongoing demographic invasion and high reproduction rates.

    Moses wrote to me:

    Muslims certainly do not want to “become” the West. The West exalts that which they despise — feminist pussy-hat wearers, open celebration of homosexuality…

    So… are you saying Muslims are less sane than contemporary Westerners or more sane?

    • Replies: @Moses
    Sanity got nuttin' to do with it, Dave.
    , @L Woods
    To ask that question is to answer it.
    , @Kylie
    How about just a different kind of insanity?
  304. @Jack D
    It's also Tax Day. Perhaps it was ignited by American anti-tax libertarians. There's the same amount of evidence as y'all have for pinning it on Muslims.

    “y’all”

  305. @J.Ross
    If they wanted to be the West then they would be the West in their own countries. They look at meritocracy as misrule and freedom of speech as disrespect.

    J. Ross wrote to me:

    [Muslims] look at meritocracy as misrule and freedom of speech as disrespect.

    I’ve known quite a few Muslims over the decades and read reports by people who know those countries far better than you or I ever will.

    There are clearly a lot of Muslims who respect meritocracy and freedom of expression — one lives across the street from me.

    And, I know white Americans who don’t.

    However, at least until recently, we Americans more or less knew how to keep our crazies under control (not so much any longer). And, the sane folks in Muslim countries were not as good at keeping their crazies under control.

    Think of it as a problem in zoo-keeping: we knew what to do with our wild beasts in the shape of humans (I mean thuggish white Americans — this is not a racist point), they not as much.

    Although, nowadays…. if I had to choose between being ruled by an all-powerful AOC or an all-powerful Ayatollah, I’m not sure which way I’d go.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    The main differences between crazies in the West and crazies in the Islamic World is that the latter can join coherent movements that pose threats to the stability of dozens of governments across multiple continents. There's simply no analogue to that among, say, white nationalists, despite what our media desperately wants people to believe.

    Otherwise... you'd be stunned to see how utterly similar the psychological profile is between the two. It's the same angry, alienated young man who really isn't interested in the nuances of history or theology or ideology. Some people just want to watch the world burn, you know?

    (The ayatollahs, for their part, are venal, hypocritical SOBs who run a deeply nasty regime. But, apart from the fact that their geopolitics are a lot more reality-based than Official Washington would give them credit for-the Shah wanted an atomic bomb too, for some of the same reasons-they do not want war with the US, because they know that'll abort Iran's inevitable hegemonic rise in the region when the CENTCOM/petrodollar game eventually runs dry for the Sauds. Plus, they aren't the ones using zakat/oil money to export Wahhabism. Thinking that Iran today is the same as it was under Khomeini is like comparing 1990s China to Cultural Revolution-era China.)

    , @Reg Cæsar

    However, at least until recently, we Americans more or less knew how to keep our crazies under control (not so much any longer). And, the sane folks in Muslim countries were not as good at keeping their crazies under control.
     
    The Sermon on the Mount is a better tool for that than is Surah 9 of the Koran.

    Interestingly, "atrocitologist" Matthew White says only 13 of the 100 deadliest human atrocities were committed in the name of religion. Makes you wonder about the other 87. I wonder how that compares with RJ Rummel's views.
    , @J.Ross
    The "I knew a guy argument" is unacceptable regarding black criminality because of overwhelming statistical phenomena, but less acceptable with Islam because Islam has clearly laid out standing orders.
    I knew a Muslim (great guy, very sharp, sometime guest on BBC) who loved doppelbock.
    , @Pericles

    There are clearly a lot of Muslims who respect meritocracy and freedom of expression — one lives across the street from me.

     

    Do you regularly tell him his so-called god doesn't exist? You being an atheist and all.
  306. @Western
    They might as well rebuild Notre Dame in Las Vegas next to the Statue of Liberty, Eiffel Tower, and Venice canals.

    Or like the Parthenon in Nashville.

    Regarding the reactions: God, save me from such unctuous tweets and public statements, as genuine as the roof which will replace the one which burned down.

  307. @PhysicistDave
    J. Ross wrote to me:

    [Muslims] look at meritocracy as misrule and freedom of speech as disrespect.
     
    I've known quite a few Muslims over the decades and read reports by people who know those countries far better than you or I ever will.

    There are clearly a lot of Muslims who respect meritocracy and freedom of expression -- one lives across the street from me.

    And, I know white Americans who don't.

    However, at least until recently, we Americans more or less knew how to keep our crazies under control (not so much any longer). And, the sane folks in Muslim countries were not as good at keeping their crazies under control.

    Think of it as a problem in zoo-keeping: we knew what to do with our wild beasts in the shape of humans (I mean thuggish white Americans -- this is not a racist point), they not as much.

    Although, nowadays.... if I had to choose between being ruled by an all-powerful AOC or an all-powerful Ayatollah, I'm not sure which way I'd go.

    The main differences between crazies in the West and crazies in the Islamic World is that the latter can join coherent movements that pose threats to the stability of dozens of governments across multiple continents. There’s simply no analogue to that among, say, white nationalists, despite what our media desperately wants people to believe.

    Otherwise… you’d be stunned to see how utterly similar the psychological profile is between the two. It’s the same angry, alienated young man who really isn’t interested in the nuances of history or theology or ideology. Some people just want to watch the world burn, you know?

    (The ayatollahs, for their part, are venal, hypocritical SOBs who run a deeply nasty regime. But, apart from the fact that their geopolitics are a lot more reality-based than Official Washington would give them credit for-the Shah wanted an atomic bomb too, for some of the same reasons-they do not want war with the US, because they know that’ll abort Iran’s inevitable hegemonic rise in the region when the CENTCOM/petrodollar game eventually runs dry for the Sauds. Plus, they aren’t the ones using zakat/oil money to export Wahhabism. Thinking that Iran today is the same as it was under Khomeini is like comparing 1990s China to Cultural Revolution-era China.)

    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
    nebulafox wrote to me:

    There’s simply no analogue to that among, say, white nationalists, despite what our media desperately wants people to believe.
     
    Well, when I said "crazies" I had in mind leftists/progressives (though I hold no brief for white nationalists either).

    I actually think both jihadists and SJW's are dead ends historically: ordinary people want peace, stability, material comforts, an opportunity for a normal family life, etc. Neither jihadists nor SJWs can deliver that long term.

    Being more or less a libertarian (old school, not new school), I would like to think that libertarian ideas can deliver on all that. Of course, in terms of power politics, libertarians are an insignificant force politically everywhere.

    On the other hand, it is fundamentally libertarian ideas -- limited government, freedom of the press, a market economy, civilian rather then military control of the state, etc. -- that made the modern West possible.

    Concretely, I think of it as a triangular battle: Thomas Jefferson vs. Karl Marx vs. Muhammad. For a long time in the twentieth century, it looked as if Marx was the wave of the future. In recent decades, Muhammad has been having his day.

    In the long run, my money is on Jefferson: either the ideas of the American Founders prevail or the entire planet enters a new Dark Age.

    As to whether those ideas triumph under the label of "libertarianism," or "liberalism," or "conservatism"... I don't really care.
    , @South Texas Guy

    The main differences between crazies in the West and crazies in the Islamic World is that the latter can join coherent movements that pose threats to the stability of dozens of governments across multiple continents. There’s simply no analogue to that among, say, white nationalists, despite what our media desperately wants people to believe.
     
    I think you're a little off. What make the muslim thing such a threat is the very large support network they enjoy. Either financial, cultural, emotional, logistical. A bunch of muslims really hate the west, and they turn a blind eye to the people perpetrating crimes, or else actively help them.

    I wonder what career and cutural paths the Bin Ladens that Bush had spirited out of the US after 911 has been? The wrong country was invaded in 2013 if you ask me.
  308. @Kratoklastes
    It's a pity that it's unlikely that anyone will make use of leftover materials used on this gigantic monument to power and the gigantic parasitic grift that is organised religion. They'll pump more tax money into it, to continue the grift.

    With all the productivity grifted for its production and maintenance, quite a few starving Parisians of the time could have been fed, housed and clothed.

    Also... despite the fact that Jeebus is a myth, a bunch of people pretend to give a fuck what he thought about things.

    Like all charlatans, the dude spoke in riddles and was inconsistent as fuck... but it's likely he would have seen that edifice for what it was/is: a huge expensive mechanism for earthly power-projection. He was kinda against huge public displays of piety, right?

    Hard to tell: you're not supposed to hide your lamp under a bushel (Matthew 5:14–15; Mark 4:21–25; Luke 8:16–18) , but you also shouldn't make gratuitous public displays of devotion that are seen of men (Matthew 6:5).

    Anyway... as I say - inconsistent. But gilded palaces with statues - probably crosses the line on the "seen of men" thingy.

    Maybe he had his DadSelf do an Act of Yahweh to show the Catholics that he meant "Suffer the little children" to mean less anal rape - although why he would wait until Catholic paedophilia was trending on Twitter, is right up there when it comes to 'mysterious ways'.

    The site should be put to a useful purpose - turned into apartments or a shopping centre. The same is true for every palace, cathedral and shrine - people are 'moved' by the architecture[1], and do not see the underlying crime: use of scarce resources for institutional self-aggrandisement, that could have been used to keep people alive. They are like a beautiful woman with syphilis.

    Eisenhower said the same sort of thing with respect to military spending -

    Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.

    This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick school in more than 30 cities. It is two electric power plants, each serving a town of 60,000 population. It is two fine, fully equipped hospitals. It is some fifty miles of concrete pavement. We pay for a single fighter with a half-million bushels of wheat. We pay for a single destroyer with new homes that could have housed more than 8,000 people
    ...
     
    The Catholic church (and all churches) should be taxed - in fact since they got most of their property by seizing it from dissidents, the church should be expropriated for fraud (and child molestation).

    [1] on 'grand' architecture: have you ever noticed that in most towns of appreciable size, the overwhelming preponderance of imposing architecture is either government buildings, banks, or churches? No surprise that the world's biggest grifts can afford to build palaces to themselves.

    What a turd.

  309. @Chrisnonymous
    My general feeling is that if this were the work of Muslim terrorists, they would have claimed responsibility for it already. I am guessing this some sort of incompetence. However, back maybe 10 years ago, I read an article about a developer in Paris who wanted to tear down Notre Dame and build high-end apartment complexes. His argument was that the cathedral no longer served enough people to justify taking up its valuable real estate. So, it's possible there was something nefarious going on.

    When I was a small boy, my father had a colleague in art history who traveled to Paris every summer just to investigate and document the small features of the facade of Notre Dame. That cathedral must be one of the most-documented architectural structures in the world.

    The Temple of the Golden Pavilion in Japan was burned down in the 1950s. It took 5-6 years for it to be rebuilt, but as far as I know, it was rebuilt to exactly its previous condition. I think the actual construction took about a year, so I assume the Japanese spent about 5 years doing research to make sure they go it right.

    When the World Trade Center reconstruction was first being discussed, one columnist in National Review (this was back before the Defenestration of Derb, when I was still reading it) said the WTC should be rebuilt exactly, but with the addition of Vulcan cannons mounted on the roof. That was pretty much my feeling as well. In the actual event, we ended up with a horrible wound in the center of New York City that (1) capitulates to the perpetrators by letting their destruction stand (so to speak) and (2) invites Americans to keep the feelz going instead of rebuilding and getting back to work. Plus, it took forever to finish.

    I fear the French will not opt for the Japanese or American solutions but will instead do something that combines the ruins from this fire with a modernist or post-modernist building a la I.M. Pei's glass Louvre Pyramid. Imagine Notre Dame's two towers with the Soumaya Museum rising up behind them in place of the former spire!

    Chrisnonymous wrote to me:

    I fear the French will not opt for the Japanese or American solutions but will instead do something that combines the ruins from this fire with a modernist or post-modernist building a la I.M. Pei’s glass Louvre Pyramid.

    I’ve seen the Louvre Pyramid, and while it is certainly out of place, it is not disgustingly ugly.

    No, for truly pointless ugliness take the “Pompidou Center”: I saw Steyn make this comment tonight on television, but I have seen the Pompidou Center, and I heartily agree.

    Fortunately, I think Victor Hugo still has enough impact that the French will rebuild the cathedral rather than desecrate it (I use “desecrate” in an aesthetic and historical sense, not theological).

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    I think we have come to accept the Pyramid out of familiarity and contrast with other aesthetic degradations that have followed it.
    , @ThreeCranes
    "I’ve seen the Louvre Pyramid, and while it is certainly out of place, it is not disgustingly ugly."

    No, it simply makes the foyer beneath it so unbearably hot as to be uninhabitable. Standing beneath it on a sunny day is like being an ant under a magnifying glass. Another testimony to our artists' and architects' lack of well-rounded skills. What is held up as daring is merely cute. A feminine aesthetic.
    , @Old Palo Altan
    The most piquant side of the Pompidou Center saga is that Pompidou himself would have absolutely loathed it.
  310. @Steve Sailer
    They built Notre Dame doing construction arithmetic with Roman numerals. How did they do that?

    I recently read a book, recommended here I believe, titled Structures, by J.E. Gordon. It is a sort of an elementary guide to structural engineering. In it, Mr. Gordon makes the point that masonry structures such as Notre Dame are scalable.
    That is to say that if you can build a scale model of the structure using the same materials that doesn’ t collapse, you can go ahead and build the full size structure, as the loads work out properly.
    I simplify obviously, but the book was a very worthwhile quick read.

  311. @nebulafox
    The main differences between crazies in the West and crazies in the Islamic World is that the latter can join coherent movements that pose threats to the stability of dozens of governments across multiple continents. There's simply no analogue to that among, say, white nationalists, despite what our media desperately wants people to believe.

    Otherwise... you'd be stunned to see how utterly similar the psychological profile is between the two. It's the same angry, alienated young man who really isn't interested in the nuances of history or theology or ideology. Some people just want to watch the world burn, you know?

    (The ayatollahs, for their part, are venal, hypocritical SOBs who run a deeply nasty regime. But, apart from the fact that their geopolitics are a lot more reality-based than Official Washington would give them credit for-the Shah wanted an atomic bomb too, for some of the same reasons-they do not want war with the US, because they know that'll abort Iran's inevitable hegemonic rise in the region when the CENTCOM/petrodollar game eventually runs dry for the Sauds. Plus, they aren't the ones using zakat/oil money to export Wahhabism. Thinking that Iran today is the same as it was under Khomeini is like comparing 1990s China to Cultural Revolution-era China.)

    nebulafox wrote to me:

    There’s simply no analogue to that among, say, white nationalists, despite what our media desperately wants people to believe.

    Well, when I said “crazies” I had in mind leftists/progressives (though I hold no brief for white nationalists either).

    I actually think both jihadists and SJW’s are dead ends historically: ordinary people want peace, stability, material comforts, an opportunity for a normal family life, etc. Neither jihadists nor SJWs can deliver that long term.

    Being more or less a libertarian (old school, not new school), I would like to think that libertarian ideas can deliver on all that. Of course, in terms of power politics, libertarians are an insignificant force politically everywhere.

    On the other hand, it is fundamentally libertarian ideas — limited government, freedom of the press, a market economy, civilian rather then military control of the state, etc. — that made the modern West possible.

    Concretely, I think of it as a triangular battle: Thomas Jefferson vs. Karl Marx vs. Muhammad. For a long time in the twentieth century, it looked as if Marx was the wave of the future. In recent decades, Muhammad has been having his day.

    In the long run, my money is on Jefferson: either the ideas of the American Founders prevail or the entire planet enters a new Dark Age.

    As to whether those ideas triumph under the label of “libertarianism,” or “liberalism,” or “conservatism”… I don’t really care.

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief

    As to whether those ideas triumph under the label of “libertarianism,” or “liberalism,” or “conservatism”… I don’t really care.
     
    Well, might turn out, that the new label reads Islamism - at least in Europe (cf. Michel Houellebecq: Submission). Grammar school Kreuzberg, 2019: Relation Turkish and Arab (etc.) speaking kids to German speaking kids: A whopping 370:1!
    , @nebulafox
    Ah, I just can't take the SJWs all that seriously. It's actually better that they become the face of the progressive project as much as possible before they burn out. They might be in the spirit of the Bolsheviks in terms of being pseudo-intellectuals alien to their own society, inevitably misproduced by a sclerotic system. But the Bolsheviks were no-kidding terrorists, if increasingly marginalized ones before WWI rescued them-bombings, robberies, assassinations, all manner of illegal, violent activity that, in tandem with Okhrana reprisals, made late Tsarist Russia such a tense place. I can't see even a civilizational catastrophe like that giving the SJWs real power, independently of their oligarchic and media patrons. It's require them to get off of Twitter and do something.

    Their oligarchic and media buddies are a different story... if we're headed for a new Dark Ages, I'll at least know who to blame when I'm busy preserving knowledge for a new Petrarch to pick up some day. But first I've got to acquire that knowledge.

    (Who knows, maybe I'll become a libertarian like you. I'm gonna go as close to blank-slate as is possible and start afresh.)

  312. @Daniel H
    Rude, untoward and inappropriate for me to say at this moment, but when Notre Dame is rebuilt I hope they don't rebuild the spire. Notre Dame is stunningly beautiful, the spire was added 180 years ago, and detracts from the beautiful symmetry of the church as designed and crafted. And the spire looks like one of those new-fangled cell phone towers with, garlanded with microwave devices. I hope that the rebuild will do justice to this magnificent achievement.

    A disagree from me. I like neo-Gothic Romanticism where appropriate and well-conceived. Notre-Dame is, after all, a medieval Gothic cathedral. The ornamentation is part of the mystique. Viollet-le-Duc’s spire was not a completely new addition: There was an original one removed in 1786 due to decay. Balance-wise, a central spire keeps the overall mass from being visually end-heavy and dominated by the huge towers.

    One problem with the look of the modern spire was its darkening due to grime, which contrasted with the rest of the exterior. The restoration would have made it of-a-piece with the rest. Finally, another reason to exactly rebuild the spire is that in all modern memory of Notre-Dame, including almost all photography, the spire rises.

    [MORE]

    • Replies: @Meretricious
    Interesting info. At any rate, I daresay your viewpoint will prevail. If we get that far.
  313. @The Wild Geese Howard

    You’d be surprised. Most Muslims have a much higher opinion of Christianity than, say, Jews or most Western atheists do.
     
    Really?

    Not two weeks ago I had half a dozen Muslims in a so-called "moderate" Muslim country tell me to my face that the Holy Trinity is a, "a joke," followed by much hearty laughing.

    I assume you came back with the Mohammed was a child molester stuff?

    • Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard
    No, but in the past I had told them that the Quran could not be perfect because it was written by Mohammed, who is human, and thus flawed and imperfect. They didn't care for that too much.

    In this instance, I had to grin and bear it. I was in the middle of a local military base in a Muslim country.
  314. @The Wild Geese Howard

    You’d be surprised. Most Muslims have a much higher opinion of Christianity than, say, Jews or most Western atheists do.
     
    Really?

    Not two weeks ago I had half a dozen Muslims in a so-called "moderate" Muslim country tell me to my face that the Holy Trinity is a, "a joke," followed by much hearty laughing.

    I assume you came back with the Mohammed was a child molester stuff?

  315. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    The relics that must have burnt are not replaceable. Neither is the artwork.

    Moreover, the deeply vibrant religious culture that gave birth to Notre Dame is now dead. As far as I know, they did not even offer the traditional Tridentine Mass at the cathedral. Instead they offered the banal Novus Ordo Mass, the disastrous fruits of which are evident to all thinking persons.

    Any piece of art reflects its period of creation. The world of 800 years ago is not replaceable without a thorough-going Catholic religious counter-revolution to strike at the evils of the modern world and resist them with the social reign of Christ as it existed, relatively speaking, in that time. Absent that, no, Notre Dame Cathedral cannot be replaced!

    It is the preposterous arrogance of modern man to suggest that he can rebuild such a church when his attitude towards God and life is in opposition to the spirit of Christendom. This is something the mere "secular" nationalist can never understand. He cannot duplicate full beauty. Modern "secular" Westerners are not really Western, and never can be.

    Notre Dame Cathedral was built to be a CHURCH, not a MUSEUM piece, which is what the modernist "Catholic" attitude produces: it produces an empty husk!

    The Catholic Faith, though, like its savior, will be resurrected. But there will be many dark days like this - and darker still - before this time of scourging comes to a merciful end.

    Although your comment is basically correct, I am able to correct you on one point: the old rite is celebrated there at least once a year at the high altar as the opening ceremony of the Paris-Chartres Pilgrimage. This is always on the Saturday before Pentecost, so this year a new venue will have to be found and I am certain that an even stronger sense that the pilgrimage exists to foster the restoration of Catholic France will be present in everyone’s minds.

  316. @RickinJax
    What odds the Pope comes out in favor of rebuilding in a modern style more inclusive of other religions?

    His minders are doing their best to keep him under control, but his thoughts will certainly veer in that direction, if he thinks about it at all.

  317. @Anonymous
    My g-g-g-g-great-grandfather renovated the floor of the women's choir at the Freiburger Muenster. The most interesting aspect of the project was the exhumation of Berthold V, the last of the Zaehringers, from the crypt under the stone floor. The project report indicated he was over 7 feet tall.

    My favourite sort of historical tidbit, one with a family connection and a striking fact to bring us right into the middle of history as it was actually lived.

  318. @Desiderius
    Covington has two spectacular cathedrals. Catholic stonemasons fleeing Bismarck. One of my ancestors was a French stonemason from that era.

    And who was he fleeing?

    Napoleon III?

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    Lol. We think he was from Alsace-Lorraine, so maybe Bismarck too. The Franco-Prussian War couldn't have been encouraging.
  319. @Andy
    somewhat off-topic, here is a reasonable essay on immigration by Andrew Sullivan:

    http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/04/andrew-sullivan-the-opportunity-of-white-anxiety.html?utm_medium=s1&utm_source=tw&utm_campaign=di

    Had an illegal approach the house this evening. He didn’t seem to be armed, but lied about how many more were with him. I could go on, but I’ve seen the type before, and I have to wonder if I didn’t have a pistol on my belt what would have happened.

    This is ridiculous. This is something people in Maine, Minnesota or whatever don’t have to deal with. It’s just not a good idea here to walk around if you’re not strapped.

    Most are fine. I don’t blame them. But some, and I suspect this guy was one of them, are extremely bad. If he would have shot me, he would have had my wallet, car keys, and be in Dallas or whereever before anyone thought to look for me. And if he’s never been picked up before, no prints in the system, no ID.

  320. @istevefan

    Given that it was a construction site, it’s much more likely that it was construction related – construction workers burn buildings down all the time.
     
    Except this isn't just a construction site. It's one of the most famous structures in the world. Would they allow a crew that did not specialize in such work to even touch the place? Surely they would go beyond even the stringent safety standards they already have when working on a treasure like this.

    Also, one would think that the workers and restoration people on a project like this are highly specialized in this line of work. I could be wrong, but I just can't believe they would take the lowest bidder on something like this.

    If we’re going to have a conspiracy theory, I prefer the one that Macron did it to quelch yellow vest enthusiasm.

    That bastard.

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    I had been thinking precisely that.

    And now I read that he is babbling about rebuilding it in a "multifaith" way.
  321. @nebulafox
    The main differences between crazies in the West and crazies in the Islamic World is that the latter can join coherent movements that pose threats to the stability of dozens of governments across multiple continents. There's simply no analogue to that among, say, white nationalists, despite what our media desperately wants people to believe.

    Otherwise... you'd be stunned to see how utterly similar the psychological profile is between the two. It's the same angry, alienated young man who really isn't interested in the nuances of history or theology or ideology. Some people just want to watch the world burn, you know?

    (The ayatollahs, for their part, are venal, hypocritical SOBs who run a deeply nasty regime. But, apart from the fact that their geopolitics are a lot more reality-based than Official Washington would give them credit for-the Shah wanted an atomic bomb too, for some of the same reasons-they do not want war with the US, because they know that'll abort Iran's inevitable hegemonic rise in the region when the CENTCOM/petrodollar game eventually runs dry for the Sauds. Plus, they aren't the ones using zakat/oil money to export Wahhabism. Thinking that Iran today is the same as it was under Khomeini is like comparing 1990s China to Cultural Revolution-era China.)

    The main differences between crazies in the West and crazies in the Islamic World is that the latter can join coherent movements that pose threats to the stability of dozens of governments across multiple continents. There’s simply no analogue to that among, say, white nationalists, despite what our media desperately wants people to believe.

    I think you’re a little off. What make the muslim thing such a threat is the very large support network they enjoy. Either financial, cultural, emotional, logistical. A bunch of muslims really hate the west, and they turn a blind eye to the people perpetrating crimes, or else actively help them.

    I wonder what career and cutural paths the Bin Ladens that Bush had spirited out of the US after 911 has been? The wrong country was invaded in 2013 if you ask me.

    • Agree: Harry Baldwin
    • Replies: @nebulafox
    >What make the muslim thing such a threat is the very large support network they enjoy.

    I'm not as off as you think. A pretty solid majority of Muslims-especially in Europe-have views on atheists, Jews, feminists, LGBT people, separation of church and state, and a whole lot else that secular, left-wing Westerners would find deeply shocking. Were they not Oppressed (TM) under Current Wisdom, they'd be condemned as considerably bigger raging bigots than most conservative working-class white people. America is luckier because for most of our history, we've been careful about who we import from that part of the world: not that the modern Democrats wouldn't love to change that.

    Most of them are not going to strap on bombs and take up guns over it, because they aren't evil or crazy. But social segregation and ghettoization is already on the table in most of Western Europe. Conditional, ambiguous views on the jihadis, or states that support them, are also there to anybody who bothers to pay attention to what European Muslims, particularly younger ones, actually think. And Muslims who actually do want to assimilate to Western norms will have a tougher time doing so. It's not encouraging.

    The Islamic World itself is a different story, better in some ways, worse in others. I think a good start would be distancing ourselves from a certain government that does everything it can to make sure the jihadis they produce make trouble outside their borders and tolerates zakat money given to the crazies.

    >What make the muslim thing such a threat is the very large support network they enjoy.

    The Islamic World is in for a rough time over the next century as they tried to reconcile their faith to modernity. The West should stay out of it as much as possible. Let things take their natural course.

    If they attack us, by all means, unleash hell. Within our own nations, obviously, don't tolerate anything smacking of Islamism. But as infidel cultures, attempting to define what Islam "really is" (as progressives are wont to do) or the political systems in Islamic countries is highly counterproductive: it'll be automatically be an open target for reactionary attacks solely by virtue of our association with it.

  322. @The Wild Geese Howard

    You’d be surprised. Most Muslims have a much higher opinion of Christianity than, say, Jews or most Western atheists do.
     
    Really?

    Not two weeks ago I had half a dozen Muslims in a so-called "moderate" Muslim country tell me to my face that the Holy Trinity is a, "a joke," followed by much hearty laughing.

    The Koran explicitly rejects the co-substantial nature of Jesus, as asserted in the Nicene creed. It holds that the gospels were corrupted, after the life of Jesus, by mortal men, specifically, by their insistence on a triune nature for God.

    The Koran, however, does not reject the Virgin Birth, nor the Immaculate Conception, and holds that Jesus was the Messiah, performed miracles, and will return on Judgment Day to usher the righteous into Heaven.

    All that puts it way closer to Christianity, doctrinally speaking, than Judaism.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    7th Century Arabia was messily sectarian. In a place with no great history of literacy or organized statehood, the lines between different religious sects were blurrier than in neighboring Rome or Persia. You could find plenty of sects that you would have found in the old days of Christianity, back when it was still bubbling and forming, out of sight and touch of Imperial agents looking to enforce orthodoxy.

    Some local Christians believed in a notion of a female Holy Spirit, or other things that would have put them quite beyond the pale for the Prophet. But others believed in a unitarian vision of God, with a mortal Jesus appointed by God as a prophet who would come again to judge the dead, that would have been quite acceptable to the new community awaiting the End Days in the eminently apocalyptic environment of the early 7th century Near East. (Huge, terrible wars. The bubonic plague. Economic depression. Environmental catastrophe and famine. Seriously: these were *bad* times. It's easy to see why the Qu'ran is so apocalyptic. Only toward the end-which is paradoxically the first surahs-does this fade and Muhammad start to think of a wholly new sort of new faith.)

    Of course, the big difference between Christianity and Islam was that Christianity had 300 years to calcify before it took power. It became an imperial religion. Islam got an empire almost right off the bat. It was born one. The doctrines of Islam were shaped according to this reality, which necessitated differentiating itself from the conquered peoples, and above all from the empire that they were trying to conquer by the late 600s.