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We hear constantly about how white people inflict violence upon “black bodies” out of their relentless scheming desire to hurt and exclude blacks.

And then there are football’s numerous scandals, where … uh … uh, it’s all Roger Goodell’s fault. And yeah, there was a rape case at the U. of Montana that got lots of coverage in the NYT.

From the New York Times:

At Florida State, Football Clouds Justice
By MIKE McINTIRE and WALT BOGDANICH

… Last year, the deeply flawed handling of a rape allegation against the quarterback Jameis Winston drew attention to institutional failures by law enforcement and Florida State officials. The accuser’s lawyer complained that detectives had seemed most interested in finding reasons not to pursue charges against Mr. Winston, a prized recruit who went on to win the Heisman Trophy and lead his team to a national championship.

Now, an examination by The New York Times of police and court records, along with interviews with crime witnesses, has found that, far from an aberration, the treatment of the Winston complaint was in keeping with the way the police on numerous occasions have soft-pedaled allegations of wrongdoing by Seminoles football players. From criminal mischief and motor-vehicle theft to domestic violence, arrests have been avoided, investigations have stalled and players have escaped serious consequences.

Isn’t this the central plot for Tom Wolfe’s old novel “A Man in Full” — a white coed at a southern college accuses the black Heisman trophy winner, Fareek “The Canon” Fanon, of rape, and the local power structure, white and black, mobilizes to make this scandal go away? But who can remember a Tom Wolfe novel? They are so 20th Century. It’s almost as if Wolfe was intentionally pointing out how the modern Southern White Male Power structure dotes on black athletes, even at the expense of their own daughters’ safety. 21st Century minds don’t deal well with irony. It makes them uncomfortable.

In reality, the big opportunity in college football is always to scrape further down toward the bottom of the cognitive and behavioral barrel for football players who have no business being turned loose on a coed college campus. Everybody wants to recruit the Andrew Lucks, but not every university can handle the pressure of assembling a mob of scholar athletes who are destined to score in the single digits on their NFL Combine Wonderlic tests.

 
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  1. Football players don’t rape. They can get any girl they want.

    • Replies: @Victor
    @Ted

    That's very anti-feminist of you. I'm surprised.

  2. Tom Wolfe Day should be a Federal holiday when he passes away. Perhaps the 3d Monday in January or something…

  3. I really used to enjoy watching pro sports. Now my pleasure is derived by watching the athletes go broke shortly after the final two minute warning sounds.

  4. Steve, I think you are missing a subtext of A Man In Full. Yes, it’s true that the whole white Atlanta establishment rallies around Fareek, for the reasons you say. But Wolfe also hints that Fareek was probably not guilty. There are several clues but the crucial revelation is the scene late in the book between Charlie and Serena at Turpmtine. Serena discloses to Charlie what she knows about Elizabeth, who turns out to be far from innocent.

    In other words, there is a parallel theme here, which is predatory (or at least lustful) females who falsely cry “rape” when they get caught in a sensitive situation.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @manton

    Right, but it's also the point where you can see post-heart bypass operation, post-manic-depression Wolfe saying, "Screw it, who says the last 100 pages have to be as good as the first 500 pages? Let's get it over with and move on."

  5. “At Florida State, Football Clouds Justice”
    I admit that grammar is not my strong suit. But this headline bugs the hell out of me with its syntax. Shouldn’t it read “Football Clouds Justice at Florida State.”?

    This bass-ackwards way of writing headlines, most often found in the pages of WaPo or NYT, comes across as not only grammatically unsound, but fucking pretentious as well.

  6. @manton
    Steve, I think you are missing a subtext of A Man In Full. Yes, it's true that the whole white Atlanta establishment rallies around Fareek, for the reasons you say. But Wolfe also hints that Fareek was probably not guilty. There are several clues but the crucial revelation is the scene late in the book between Charlie and Serena at Turpmtine. Serena discloses to Charlie what she knows about Elizabeth, who turns out to be far from innocent.

    In other words, there is a parallel theme here, which is predatory (or at least lustful) females who falsely cry "rape" when they get caught in a sensitive situation.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Right, but it’s also the point where you can see post-heart bypass operation, post-manic-depression Wolfe saying, “Screw it, who says the last 100 pages have to be as good as the first 500 pages? Let’s get it over with and move on.”

  7. White girls crave the sensual pleasure of Black Men but lie about rape when daddy finds out

    • Replies: @Hapalong Cassidy
    @Ted

    Sounds like someone is speaking from personal experience.

    Straight white girls don't necessarily have the same tastes as gay white men, however.

    Replies: @Lot

    , @Anonymous
    @Ted

    I'm not sure most white girls crave the sensual pleasure of black men.

  8. While Winston’s off-the-field antics are certainly, shall we say, stereotypical, I wouldn’t be so quick as to write him off as yet another low Wonderlic scorer. Supposedly, he had a 4.0 in high school and is doing pretty well academically at FSU. Here is an article on the subject, which does however leave out his major.

    http://touch.orlandosentinel.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-80452162/

    “”Winston, who took Advanced Placement courses in high school and received All-ACC academic honors this past football season, is clearly sensitive about there being a perception that he is “dumb.” ”

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Hapalong Cassidy

    Stereotypical? Or regression to the mean. Supposedly. Supposedly we're just supposed to accept official propaganda without direct evidence to support these claims. You do know that oftentimes athletes have ringers for them to take SAT/ACT tests for them?

    Also, the official NCAA Cosida list of all academic team does not list his name for his freshman yr. (the list requires a minimum 3.0 GPA) Oh well, he'll probably make the all academic team this yr, right? Of course. After all, he took AP classes so he MUST be smart! Perhaps you didn't know about the USA Today cover story few yrs back which broke down the FB/BB players majors, GRE, etc at large. Bottom line: NCAA FB/BB aren't on average as smart as their non-athletic coeds.

    To be fair, per NCAA rules, athletes aren't required to declare their major til their junior yr so Winston has another yr to go. Unless he'd like to declare for the NFL draft after this yr.

  9. @Ted
    White girls crave the sensual pleasure of Black Men but lie about rape when daddy finds out

    Replies: @Hapalong Cassidy, @Anonymous

    Sounds like someone is speaking from personal experience.

    Straight white girls don’t necessarily have the same tastes as gay white men, however.

    • Replies: @Lot
    @Hapalong Cassidy


    Straight white girls don’t necessarily have the same tastes as gay white men, however.
     
    On OKCupid, gay white men and straight white women both strongly prefer white men to black men:

    http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-race-affects-whether-people-write-you-back/

    For both groups, black men are dead last in the likelihood of getting a reply.

    43% of white gays "strongly" prefer to date someone of their own race, by far the highest of any gay group. Only 6% of black gay men say the same.

    By comparison, 54% of white women and 40% of white men say the same thing. So gay whites have a slightly stronger preference for white men than straight white men have for white women.

    Replies: @AnAnon

  10. @Hapalong Cassidy
    While Winston's off-the-field antics are certainly, shall we say, stereotypical, I wouldn't be so quick as to write him off as yet another low Wonderlic scorer. Supposedly, he had a 4.0 in high school and is doing pretty well academically at FSU. Here is an article on the subject, which does however leave out his major.

    http://touch.orlandosentinel.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-80452162/

    ""Winston, who took Advanced Placement courses in high school and received All-ACC academic honors this past football season, is clearly sensitive about there being a perception that he is “dumb.” "

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Stereotypical? Or regression to the mean. Supposedly. Supposedly we’re just supposed to accept official propaganda without direct evidence to support these claims. You do know that oftentimes athletes have ringers for them to take SAT/ACT tests for them?

    Also, the official NCAA Cosida list of all academic team does not list his name for his freshman yr. (the list requires a minimum 3.0 GPA) Oh well, he’ll probably make the all academic team this yr, right? Of course. After all, he took AP classes so he MUST be smart! Perhaps you didn’t know about the USA Today cover story few yrs back which broke down the FB/BB players majors, GRE, etc at large. Bottom line: NCAA FB/BB aren’t on average as smart as their non-athletic coeds.

    To be fair, per NCAA rules, athletes aren’t required to declare their major til their junior yr so Winston has another yr to go. Unless he’d like to declare for the NFL draft after this yr.

  11. Steve, I don’t think so, for a few reasons:

    1) The clues come early in the book. E.g., the restaurant scene where Martha sees Ellen Armholster, who snubs her, and Martha complains to her companion about all the times Ellen has spilt her guts about daughter Elizabeth. So Elizabeth is set up in the first third to be a not-so-compelling victim.

    2) The details of the case. Elizabeth insists that her parents not go to the police. In fact, she doesn’t even tell them. A friend of Elizabeth’s tells the friend’s mom, who tells Ellen, who goes nuts. Elizabeth wants the whole thing to go away.

    3) The very opening scene, at the plantation, is the day after the alleged rape. This is only revealed if you pay attention to the way Wolfe sets the date and the time, which he does in an offhand way, and he only backfills this information, which means that one is likely to miss it on a first read and not even pick up on it on a second read unless you are looking for it. But it’s after the “rape” and Elizabeth is far from traumatized. She is riding back on horseback with Serena (the other women are in the buckboards) and giggling and gossiping. And she just was “raped” 12 hours before?

    4) The theme of female adventurism (for lack of a better term) is explored more deeply in Charlotte Simmons and Back to Blood. It wasn’t an afterthought here. Wolfe is foreshadowing something that he wrote about in more depth in those books and in the essay “Hooking Up.”

    5) I asked him about this and he confirmed my interpretation, so I have it on good authority that I’m right.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @manton

    Wow, that's shocking. So then, by your assessment you're saying that the woman wasn't raped at all? That's no different than the PC To Kill a Mockingbird.

    Sorry, but just once in fiction it would be nice to actually make the person accused of rape, you know, out to be the actual rapist and guilty.

    That sounds sooo Hollywood, that the person wasn't actually guilty after all and that she wanted it.

    Basically that's what you're saying. Wow.

    For a real life account of a more than probable account of assault, you should read the Seattle Times in-depth investigation on Jerramy Stevens. No possible way anyone could conclude that the girl was "hooking up". And she was severely traumatized.

    Replies: @David In TN

    , @OsRazor
    @manton

    I'm sure your interpretation is correct, and I think Wolfe was much too good a writer and observer to make it as simple as a Black rape White--the key, as you've observed, is the "adventurism" of white girls, brainwashed into believing all sorts of awful about race, themselves, gender, all of it.

    It's no surprise at all that these sorts of things happen on college campuses where some stupid, wasted/drunk white girl from the suburbs gets introduced into the reality of Black male disdain for females in general and White females as a particularly ridiculous object and the result is a lot of regret. It's doubtful naive white girl's been used so roughly before when probably most of her experience before has been with the awkward fumblings of her high school friends and, well, what could it be other than rape when she can't walk right for a couple of days after?

    What White girl in her right mind would put herself in the position of being alone or drunk with a relatively unknown Black man (or more, in some cases), star jock athlete or what have you? The answer is that White girl is not in her right mind. She's clueless, a sheep being led to slaughter. She's in more danger than she could imagine and there's no one out there who will help her. Camille Paglia had a very good piece on this recently. http://time.com/3444749/camille-paglia-the-modern-campus-cannot-comprehend-evil/

    , @Curle
    @manton

    Enjoyed the criticism. I read the book years ago and to the best of my recollection missed the theme you highlight/spotted. A good argument for reading good literature several times. I'm also pleased to see there are people here in the alt right who take literature seriously. I'm getting very, very tired of drone Republicans who scoff at literature as sissy boy stuff. I think it is one reason Republicans lose the message wars.

  12. Regarding the looking the other way in NCAA football, it isn’t just in the South. The 2000 UW Huskies, winner of the Rose Bowl, were a bad group of thugs all around. The Seattle Times did an investigative story on several of those with off field problems. “The 2000 Huskies were bad all around” or “were a bad group of guys” the investigative story was called, I believe. The point being, the NCAA is really recruiting some thugs over the decades and its not just restricted to the south. Seattle of all places you would tend to think would take a stronger stand vs sexual assault charges. But they did not in this instance. They had a Rose Bowl to win.

    One such standout was star TE and future NFLer Jerramy Stevens. In Stevens junior year, he was arrested but not charged with sexual assault. The details of the case were of a most physically violent nature that should leave no doubt as to his more than likely guilt. The Seattle DA very much wanted to charge him with rape, but her bosses higher up apparently were Huskies fans and refused to permit her to prosecute Stevens. the student left school soon after and attempted to sue the university for its compliance in the case as well. An out of court settlement was reached for around 350k, of which Stevens never had to contribute any since it was paid for by the alumni fund.

    Stevens later married US National Team GK Hope Solo, who is awaiting trial for domestic violence in November. Funny how like attracts its own.

    • Replies: @Curle
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    "Stevens later married US National Team GK Hope Solo, who is awaiting trial for domestic violence in November. Funny how like attracts its own." -------------------------------------

    All this hand wringing over a female 'assaulting' a family member, especially when that family member is a male, highlights the manner in which we are all being acclimated to viewing every aspect of human intercourse (old sense not sexual sense) as subject to government intervention. When I was younger the rare instance of females fighting (I attended mostly white schools) was a cause for anticipated hilarity. A little like puppies wrestling. An event of no consequence because of the low likelihood for actual harm. Now, the hand wringers feel the need to elevate all conflicts into an excuse for social intervention and we all feel the need to nod our heads in agreement or face stigmatization.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

  13. At a loss why baseball, hockey, golf and tennis players can and do turn pro without ever going to college. Colleges are or should be educational institutions rather than minor leagues. Have a friend who’s nephew was drafted by an NHL team. This boy as a teen left his home to play junior hockey in another state and decided to forego 2 scholarship offers at big time hockey schools to stay with a major junior team. Worked in a fast food restaurant as a teen with a guy who was drafted by an MLB team and played minor league ball. Same thing; if it doesn’t work out go get another career. Which is what happened to the later.And worked with a guy who starred at a Big East basketball school who recognized while he was good he would never make the NBA and got his degree and went to law school instead . Which is how things should ideally work .

    The NBA and the NFL are beginning to consider using minor developmental leagues for players who have no academic background but want to turn pro. But with March Madness as huge as it is and a football playoff starting this season, more likely colleges with major sports programs will continue to bring players onto their campuses that have no business nor intention of getting an education.As a parent saving for a son’s education, I have no sympathy for “student athletes” who are not students. But doubt things will change much.

    • Replies: @RT Rider
    @Bugg

    Good point. I've often wondered about the size of the subsidy the NFL and NBA get from this arrangement. These days, it also seems to be a bit precarious for these leagues' business model - depending on the college system for their player supply. With over a trillion in aggregate student debt, the college system might be facing some restructuring in their cost structure, in order to make education more affordable, particularly if government loans become scarce. This restructuring might not affect the big school sports programs, but the smaller might have to cut back substantially.

    , @Oldeguy
    @Bugg

    Those "minor developmental leagues" would be of tremendous benefit in ending the farce of illiterate thugs being wildly cheered on at stadiums packed with educated White alumni because the thugs are "representing" their University. Can't happen soon enough.

    , @Lurker
    @Bugg

    To British eyes the whole academic sport complex is bizarre. Why on earth should pro players be at university at all?

    Does anything comparable happen in any other country, in any other sports?

    Replies: @keypusher

  14. @manton
    Steve, I don't think so, for a few reasons:

    1) The clues come early in the book. E.g., the restaurant scene where Martha sees Ellen Armholster, who snubs her, and Martha complains to her companion about all the times Ellen has spilt her guts about daughter Elizabeth. So Elizabeth is set up in the first third to be a not-so-compelling victim.

    2) The details of the case. Elizabeth insists that her parents not go to the police. In fact, she doesn't even tell them. A friend of Elizabeth's tells the friend's mom, who tells Ellen, who goes nuts. Elizabeth wants the whole thing to go away.

    3) The very opening scene, at the plantation, is the day after the alleged rape. This is only revealed if you pay attention to the way Wolfe sets the date and the time, which he does in an offhand way, and he only backfills this information, which means that one is likely to miss it on a first read and not even pick up on it on a second read unless you are looking for it. But it's after the "rape" and Elizabeth is far from traumatized. She is riding back on horseback with Serena (the other women are in the buckboards) and giggling and gossiping. And she just was "raped" 12 hours before?

    4) The theme of female adventurism (for lack of a better term) is explored more deeply in Charlotte Simmons and Back to Blood. It wasn't an afterthought here. Wolfe is foreshadowing something that he wrote about in more depth in those books and in the essay "Hooking Up."

    5) I asked him about this and he confirmed my interpretation, so I have it on good authority that I'm right.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @OsRazor, @Curle

    Wow, that’s shocking. So then, by your assessment you’re saying that the woman wasn’t raped at all? That’s no different than the PC To Kill a Mockingbird.

    Sorry, but just once in fiction it would be nice to actually make the person accused of rape, you know, out to be the actual rapist and guilty.

    That sounds sooo Hollywood, that the person wasn’t actually guilty after all and that she wanted it.

    Basically that’s what you’re saying. Wow.

    For a real life account of a more than probable account of assault, you should read the Seattle Times in-depth investigation on Jerramy Stevens. No possible way anyone could conclude that the girl was “hooking up”. And she was severely traumatized.

    • Replies: @David In TN
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Manton probably thinks the killers in the Christian-Newsom torture-murder case were innocent. That's how Hollywood would play it.

  15. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Ted= Nicholas Kristof

    Kristof has been pushing for Ethnropy for quite a wile.

    One gauge of the progress we’ve made in American race relations in recent decades is the growing number of blacks and whites who have integrated their hearts and ended up marrying each other.
    Blacks, Whites and Love (NYT, 4/24/2005)

    But Nick is not going for da brack, caw he prefer da yeddow..

  16. College athletics are simply beyond fixing. There are too many intractable and inexplicable problems tied up in college sports for them to cease being anything other than a chaotic and damaging nightmare in the near future. To name a few:

    (1) the fact that they (college sports) exist in the first place, or at least that they exist in their current form. To the extent that the phrase “college sports” has any rational meaning, it should refer to athletic events in which the average student can exert himself and physically train his body, in the Greek tradition of joining together mental and physical education. In fact, guys playing pick-up ball or frisbee on the quad is the closest we get to real “college sports” these days. To the extent that a logical and well-run institution of higher learning should have sports at all, 90,000 drunk kids sitting on their asses and watching a handful of roided-up animals crash into each other shouldn’t be it.

    (2) the fact that most people don’t realize – and the ones that do can’t admit – that successful athletes cannot come from the same population that good college students come from. The only way to succeed in college football or basketball is to recruit fast, strong, dumb kids (mostly, but by no means entirely, black kids) from horrible families. Lots of them. These “student athletes” will never be able to survive – much less thrive – academically at a decent university. Even GOOD schools have fail-proof classes, “tutors” to basically do the kids’ work, and several other means of pretending that the athletes are actually getting an education.
    Of course, that “skahla-ship” is what these basketball players are so proud of getting, but it does them no good. Most of them don’t graduate, the ones that do never learn any valuable skills, and employers are well aware that a kid with a 2.8 in Communications who played on the basketball team is not someone worth hiring. Aside from the small fraction that will go onto play in the NBA, college ends up being worse than a waste of time for most of these guys.
    And, frankly, most of them AREN’T rapists, and I do feel sorry for some of them. They’re basically getting taken advantage of in the worst way. Although I guess getting to be BMOC is payment enough, in a way.

    (3) [most infuriatingly] – the legions of mostly white middle- and upper-class alumni who somehow find themselves so wrapped up in the performance of their school’s football and basketball teams that they not only accept a policy of recruiting fast, dumb, sometimes-criminal athletes and setting them loose on campus, they positively DEMAND it.
    You should see these guys every year on “signing day,” when the most sought after recruits decide what school they’re going to attend. These alums will sit around watching ESPN all day (which, of course, runs a series of live specials). They’ll show footage of some meathead, cranked up on anabolic steroids and growth hormones, promising to come spend the next 4 years at the school where these alums may damn well be sending their sons and daughters … and the alumni will stand up and CHEER for it. I mean, isn’t this a sign that something has gone horribly wrong?

    (4) [most depressingly] – the legions of current and soon-arriving students – middle-class kids 17 to 22 years old – who just couldn’t imagine going to a school that didn’t have a big-time football or basketball team. You would be astonished at how big a role this plays in college decisions for high school kids, and how big a part of the college experience it is for current students. The chance to paint your face and put on your school colors and cheer for athletes who would be in prison if it weren’t for this sports team is apparently a vital part of the college experience.
    Even at the Ivy League schools (where the idiocy isn’t as full-bore as the state schools), students go nuts when their teams perform (relatively) well. Next time you see a Harvard or UPenn grad, ask him whether their basketball team made the NCAA tournament while he/she was at school. If the answer is “yes,” I’d bet you even money that the next thing out of his or her mouth is “it was one of the best weeks of college!”

    There are more reasons, but this comment has run on long enough and it’s after midnight. Feel free to add to this list.

  17. @manton
    Steve, I don't think so, for a few reasons:

    1) The clues come early in the book. E.g., the restaurant scene where Martha sees Ellen Armholster, who snubs her, and Martha complains to her companion about all the times Ellen has spilt her guts about daughter Elizabeth. So Elizabeth is set up in the first third to be a not-so-compelling victim.

    2) The details of the case. Elizabeth insists that her parents not go to the police. In fact, she doesn't even tell them. A friend of Elizabeth's tells the friend's mom, who tells Ellen, who goes nuts. Elizabeth wants the whole thing to go away.

    3) The very opening scene, at the plantation, is the day after the alleged rape. This is only revealed if you pay attention to the way Wolfe sets the date and the time, which he does in an offhand way, and he only backfills this information, which means that one is likely to miss it on a first read and not even pick up on it on a second read unless you are looking for it. But it's after the "rape" and Elizabeth is far from traumatized. She is riding back on horseback with Serena (the other women are in the buckboards) and giggling and gossiping. And she just was "raped" 12 hours before?

    4) The theme of female adventurism (for lack of a better term) is explored more deeply in Charlotte Simmons and Back to Blood. It wasn't an afterthought here. Wolfe is foreshadowing something that he wrote about in more depth in those books and in the essay "Hooking Up."

    5) I asked him about this and he confirmed my interpretation, so I have it on good authority that I'm right.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @OsRazor, @Curle

    I’m sure your interpretation is correct, and I think Wolfe was much too good a writer and observer to make it as simple as a Black rape White–the key, as you’ve observed, is the “adventurism” of white girls, brainwashed into believing all sorts of awful about race, themselves, gender, all of it.

    It’s no surprise at all that these sorts of things happen on college campuses where some stupid, wasted/drunk white girl from the suburbs gets introduced into the reality of Black male disdain for females in general and White females as a particularly ridiculous object and the result is a lot of regret. It’s doubtful naive white girl’s been used so roughly before when probably most of her experience before has been with the awkward fumblings of her high school friends and, well, what could it be other than rape when she can’t walk right for a couple of days after?

    What White girl in her right mind would put herself in the position of being alone or drunk with a relatively unknown Black man (or more, in some cases), star jock athlete or what have you? The answer is that White girl is not in her right mind. She’s clueless, a sheep being led to slaughter. She’s in more danger than she could imagine and there’s no one out there who will help her. Camille Paglia had a very good piece on this recently. http://time.com/3444749/camille-paglia-the-modern-campus-cannot-comprehend-evil/

  18. @Hapalong Cassidy
    @Ted

    Sounds like someone is speaking from personal experience.

    Straight white girls don't necessarily have the same tastes as gay white men, however.

    Replies: @Lot

    Straight white girls don’t necessarily have the same tastes as gay white men, however.

    On OKCupid, gay white men and straight white women both strongly prefer white men to black men:

    http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-race-affects-whether-people-write-you-back/

    For both groups, black men are dead last in the likelihood of getting a reply.

    43% of white gays “strongly” prefer to date someone of their own race, by far the highest of any gay group. Only 6% of black gay men say the same.

    By comparison, 54% of white women and 40% of white men say the same thing. So gay whites have a slightly stronger preference for white men than straight white men have for white women.

    • Replies: @AnAnon
    @Lot

    "By comparison, 54% of white women and 40% of white men say the same thing." - or rather, will admit the same thing.

  19. I’m not going to say much because I don’t want to delve into these things, but I read the evidence(text messages, etc) when the prosecutors decided not to prosecute and the accuser is a cleat chaster of the highest order and is almost certainly lying.

    The police screwed up in 3 major ways though 1) they didn’t get the video from the bar 2) there allegedly was a video of the event recorded that was deleted that they didn’t get 3) they practically did no interviews with anyone, instead they sent out a rape kit and didn’t do much.

    Everyone involved in this case is dirty… Jameis, the accusor, the police…

    • Replies: @soren
    @soren

    Oh yeah, and one weird thing about the released files from the prosecutors is that they released no social media or text records from Jameis or the two witnesses. That there makes it seem like they were investigating the accuser(whom I do think is lying) instead of Jameis.

  20. and

    I’m going to keep it esoteric for you guys, but read the accusers text messages… a dating service where people are looking for marriage is not a campus… sloots are gonna sloot.

  21. @Ted
    White girls crave the sensual pleasure of Black Men but lie about rape when daddy finds out

    Replies: @Hapalong Cassidy, @Anonymous

    I’m not sure most white girls crave the sensual pleasure of black men.

  22. On OKCupid, gay white men

    I knew there was something odd about you.

  23. It doesn’t matter whether pro sports teams are composed of lily white boyscout types or inner city thugs with a rap sheet and a IQ of 60. It’s something we don’t need period. It’s never been anything more than a trashy modern day variation of the Roman bread and circuses scam for the masses created and supported by the elites. It has no redeeming values for the lower classes except to debase them further.

    Dump it, let the rank and file whites wake up and take a hard look around at the life they have and figure out if they want to keep it or change. But don’t promote the bread and circuses, it’s poisoning white society.

    • Replies: @Ron Mexico
    @rod1963

    rod, no NFL, no peace, according to Ray Lewis. what would all those young black men do without the NFL?

  24. …and I thought this was techie iSteve post all about the hypothetical perfect electromagnetic radiation emitter.

  25. @Ted
    Football players don't rape. They can get any girl they want.

    Replies: @Victor

    That’s very anti-feminist of you. I’m surprised.

  26. @rod1963
    It doesn't matter whether pro sports teams are composed of lily white boyscout types or inner city thugs with a rap sheet and a IQ of 60. It's something we don't need period. It's never been anything more than a trashy modern day variation of the Roman bread and circuses scam for the masses created and supported by the elites. It has no redeeming values for the lower classes except to debase them further.

    Dump it, let the rank and file whites wake up and take a hard look around at the life they have and figure out if they want to keep it or change. But don't promote the bread and circuses, it's poisoning white society.

    Replies: @Ron Mexico

    rod, no NFL, no peace, according to Ray Lewis. what would all those young black men do without the NFL?

  27. I’ll take a stab at the meaning of the “black bodies” formulation. I think it’s meant to get the reader to concentrate on black people’s appearance instead of their behavior, culture, and achievements. That way, the writer can imply that some affliction on the black community is due entirely to an irrational prejudice against black skin.

    But the formulation just looks weird. Has anyone outside of the press or academy used it? I’m pretty sure that normal black people wouldn’t say something that sounds that awkward; they tend to be more straightforward, being normal people with normal concerns. There is some PoMo voodoo going on. (Now PoMo voodoo is one mellifluous phrase).

  28. @Bugg
    At a loss why baseball, hockey, golf and tennis players can and do turn pro without ever going to college. Colleges are or should be educational institutions rather than minor leagues. Have a friend who's nephew was drafted by an NHL team. This boy as a teen left his home to play junior hockey in another state and decided to forego 2 scholarship offers at big time hockey schools to stay with a major junior team. Worked in a fast food restaurant as a teen with a guy who was drafted by an MLB team and played minor league ball. Same thing; if it doesn't work out go get another career. Which is what happened to the later.And worked with a guy who starred at a Big East basketball school who recognized while he was good he would never make the NBA and got his degree and went to law school instead . Which is how things should ideally work .

    The NBA and the NFL are beginning to consider using minor developmental leagues for players who have no academic background but want to turn pro. But with March Madness as huge as it is and a football playoff starting this season, more likely colleges with major sports programs will continue to bring players onto their campuses that have no business nor intention of getting an education.As a parent saving for a son's education, I have no sympathy for "student athletes" who are not students. But doubt things will change much.

    Replies: @RT Rider, @Oldeguy, @Lurker

    Good point. I’ve often wondered about the size of the subsidy the NFL and NBA get from this arrangement. These days, it also seems to be a bit precarious for these leagues’ business model – depending on the college system for their player supply. With over a trillion in aggregate student debt, the college system might be facing some restructuring in their cost structure, in order to make education more affordable, particularly if government loans become scarce. This restructuring might not affect the big school sports programs, but the smaller might have to cut back substantially.

  29. There is a seeming paradox I’ve been wondering about. According to the West Hunter site, more than half of all genes are expressed in the brain, and high intelligence is associated with low genetic load. One would think that outstanding athleticism is also associated with low genetic load.

    If that is the case, why do we see so many stupid top athletes? Whereas both should be associated with selecting for lots of good genes, being a great athlete isn’t the same as being a genius, so I could understand professional athletes being bright normal. What I can’t understand is single-digit Wonderlic scores. Somewhere my mental model is off. Can you improve it?

    • Replies: @Melendwyr
    @Xenophon Hendrix

    Because genetic load may help explain the differences within a related group, but is only responsible for certain kinds of differences. Genetic load impairs the manifestation of the design, but it doesn't speak to the properties of the design itself. A perfectly-executed chimpanzee design isn't going to have the same strengths and weaknesses as a mediocre human design - and for most things that we care about, the chimp is going to be weaker.

    A human with an inefficient brain is probably going to have little ability to defer gratification. But some humans lack the programming for the traits that lead to that ability, and no matter how ideal their biochemistry, they're not going to restrain themselves.

  30. @soren
    I'm not going to say much because I don't want to delve into these things, but I read the evidence(text messages, etc) when the prosecutors decided not to prosecute and the accuser is a cleat chaster of the highest order and is almost certainly lying.

    The police screwed up in 3 major ways though 1) they didn't get the video from the bar 2) there allegedly was a video of the event recorded that was deleted that they didn't get 3) they practically did no interviews with anyone, instead they sent out a rape kit and didn't do much.

    Everyone involved in this case is dirty... Jameis, the accusor, the police...

    Replies: @soren

    Oh yeah, and one weird thing about the released files from the prosecutors is that they released no social media or text records from Jameis or the two witnesses. That there makes it seem like they were investigating the accuser(whom I do think is lying) instead of Jameis.

  31. Winston and the white girl had been hooking up for months. She decided to try to wreck Winston when 1. He wouldn’t leave his girlfriend for her and 2. Her father found out she was intimate with a Black Man

    • Replies: @soren
    @Ted

    I think the girl is lying but the rumor that she knew Jameis before going to the bar was refuted a long time ago by the State Attorney and the fact you're still peddling it is pathetic.

  32. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    @Soren

    and

    I’m going to keep it esoteric for you guys, but read the accusers text messages… a dating service where people are looking for marriage is not a campus… sloots are gonna sloot.

    You find equivalent stats at hookup sites like Tinder, which is popular with college students. White women like white men. Asian women like white then Asian men. Black women like black men. Hispanic women like white, Hispanic, then black men. White men are the most desirable across all groups. Asian women are the most desirable across all groups. Asian men are the least desirable across all groups. Black women are the least desirable across all groups.

    And a part of these stats is simply one race replying to a message by another race, i.e., even mild curiosity with no intention of hooking up or dating.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Anonymous

    You find equivalent stats at hookup sites like Tinder, which is popular with college students.

    But the predilections of people on hookup sites are not necessarily those of the average joe. It's possible that this is the demographic of people who, in the past, would have frequented prostitutes or been prostitutes.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    , @soren
    @Anonymous

    I don't dispute these stats in the least(in fact I often extol them), but it's a matter of situational status semiotics... an internet dating service is much different than a college campus bar... on the internet people are more analytic and are more self-aware about the possibilities of deception and are more future time oriented... at a college bar where they are out to have fun they're more instinctual and are thinking more about immediate fun and maybe social status... often false rape charges occur when the "fun" ends and it harms the girls social status because either the interaction is found out and people think less of the girl OR the guy abandons the girl and she gets angry that he's not with her to raise her status.

    Race matters but talking about race in an extremely essentialized way can lead to absurdities... both anti-racists and "racists" are guilty of this... there are advantages to being white in the dating market but there are also advantages to being the tall, athletic, school hero regardless of race. Again, it's a matter of situational status semiotics.

  33. White girls black athletes and college “rape” culture.

    These days and times, there is no agreement about what rape is: consent as a barometer is unworkable. Black athletes on campus take advantage of a situation: white girls put themselves out and get “raped”.

    The white male power structure in the South and Seattle and everywhere else, knows the score: the girlies wents to the party and then for various reasons (including visceral disgust) feels bad and changes her mind and calls “rape” on the play. Who expects the 20 year-old jockaroos not to take advantage? they are not that dumb!

    Big time college sports, football and basketball, is the symbol of white America. The white male power structure (no quotes: the actual money in Atlanta and the fans in Seattle) gives its girls to the beast. The money men and the fan boys, they would like to go the party after the game, and just to watch.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Suburban_elk

    Now, that's not exactly true regarding an important point. IF a girl is given a date rape drug and rendered unconscious and has violent physical marks and bruises on her body.

    I think most rational people would agree that in a court of law, that would definitely constitute rape.

    Go read the Seattle Times investigative story regarding Jerramy Stevens and then tell us that that was not an assault but "consent". I want to hear that. Oh, and she experienced severe trauma as well. Or was that just faking it?

    So, basically you're also using sports to once again blame whitey for something. Anything. It HAS to be YT's fault. It certainly can't be Letrelle's or DeShanteezious or Robert DeMarcus Willams the third. Personal responsibility is simply too far over on the Bell Curve's left side and that bar is just too far to reach for these....people?

    Also, how come most white FB/BB players are basically not charged with assault? How come they manage to seldom get charged with violent crimes?

    Just asking.

    , @David R. Merridale
    @Suburban_elk

    Your post comes tantalizingly close to coherence.

  34. “What White girl in her right mind would put herself in the position of being alone or drunk with a relatively unknown Black man (or more, in some cases), star jock athlete or what have you? The answer is that White girl is not in her right mind. She’s clueless, a sheep being led to slaughter. She’s in more danger than she could imagine and there’s no one out there who will help her. Camille Paglia had a very good piece on this recently.”

    This is so, so true. I sometimes think there has been no force so evil, with so disingenuously good intentions, as the liberal cum radical race-writers ( more often white) since the 1950s. These people imagined it was somehow an illusion that black males were not just like white males and any white female who rejected them was just an evil racist instead of a perfectly sensible person. Whites get nothing out of breeding with blacks, if the connection goes that far. Nothing. The offspring id with blacks, the black father takes off, the offspring are likely to be less intelligent than if she’d just picked someone of her own race, etc. etc. There is no up side to it. None. Of course I don’t include the occasional cases where the couple is truly bonded, but that doesn’t happen often.
    Tom Wolf is very good, generally, at getting the female pov about right. He must have pretty good communication with his wife & daughter. I’ve rarely read a better description of a girl getting into a not entirely wanted first sex encounter with a (white) guy than the Charlotte Simmons story. I mean once she’s passed a certain point, there’s no turning back. And some girls don’t get that these days. They always think they’ll be totally in control. They also don’t get that there is no logic or rationale for the persecution of the “fallen woman” by both genders even though they’re all guilty of doing the same things. Such hypocrites. At least in the old days the “good” girls really were “good” according the moraes of the day. Not now. It just depends on class and personality. That’s the brilliance of Wolf.

  35. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @manton

    Wow, that's shocking. So then, by your assessment you're saying that the woman wasn't raped at all? That's no different than the PC To Kill a Mockingbird.

    Sorry, but just once in fiction it would be nice to actually make the person accused of rape, you know, out to be the actual rapist and guilty.

    That sounds sooo Hollywood, that the person wasn't actually guilty after all and that she wanted it.

    Basically that's what you're saying. Wow.

    For a real life account of a more than probable account of assault, you should read the Seattle Times in-depth investigation on Jerramy Stevens. No possible way anyone could conclude that the girl was "hooking up". And she was severely traumatized.

    Replies: @David In TN

    Manton probably thinks the killers in the Christian-Newsom torture-murder case were innocent. That’s how Hollywood would play it.

  36. Old news (especially to isteve readers). Watch for racial angle of this repugnant Sayreville NJ high school football scandal. Two of 7 allegedly charged are black (including one highly coveted player recruited to Penn state). Twisted. On some level ironic –the bullies employing a homosexual act to “haze” (really sexually assault) HS freshmen.

  37. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    There’s a lot of disdain here for black athletes hooking up with white girls on campus. It’s described on the part of the girl as adventurism or being out of her mind. But some white girls especially those who are on teams themselves tend to be very into black men.

    • Replies: @Clyde
    @Anonymous


    There’s a lot of disdain here for black athletes hooking up with white girls on campus. It’s described on the part of the girl as adventurism or being out of her mind. But some white girls especially those who are on teams themselves tend to be very into black men.
     
    Only due to these impressionable white girls being brainwashed by the media and leftist culture on campus. White females used to have more pride and common sense and their families would inculcate this into them. Plus as been noted here, women have more of the traitorous tendencies such as all the French women who went out and had sexual relations with the temporary winners in WW2 (German occupiers)
    , @BurplesonAFB
    @Anonymous

    Yes some are, and it only took 18 years of Viacom to make them so.

  38. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    @Soren

    @Lot and @Hapalong Cassidy

    I’m going to keep it esoteric for you guys, but read the accusers text messages… a dating service where people are looking for marriage is not a campus… sloots are gonna sloot.
     

    You find equivalent stats at hookup sites like Tinder, which is popular with college students. White women like white men. Asian women like white then Asian men. Black women like black men. Hispanic women like white, Hispanic, then black men. White men are the most desirable across all groups. Asian women are the most desirable across all groups. Asian men are the least desirable across all groups. Black women are the least desirable across all groups.

    And a part of these stats is simply one race replying to a message by another race, i.e., even mild curiosity with no intention of hooking up or dating.

    Replies: @Anon, @soren

    You find equivalent stats at hookup sites like Tinder, which is popular with college students.

    But the predilections of people on hookup sites are not necessarily those of the average joe. It’s possible that this is the demographic of people who, in the past, would have frequented prostitutes or been prostitutes.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Anon

    No, you're completely wrong on that one. The ones who just want a simple hookup wouldn't go to Tinder or other respectable sites because you have to provide a lot of information which can be checked. There's quite a few hoops to jump thru and its all so respectable.

    People just into hooking up, etc. tend to go for Ashley Madison dating sites. There, there isn't any mystery or respectability about the whole thing. It is what it is.

    If anything, it could be argued that those on the bell curve's right side would tend to use dating sites that are respectable and have a well deserved reputation of finding a person's "soul mate" or "life partner". OkCupid, for example was founded by ex-Harvard students who studied the ins and outs of trying to find the ideal partner.

    Ashley Madison was founded by....well....a former courtesan to put it mildly.

  39. @Anonymous
    There's a lot of disdain here for black athletes hooking up with white girls on campus. It's described on the part of the girl as adventurism or being out of her mind. But some white girls especially those who are on teams themselves tend to be very into black men.

    Replies: @Clyde, @BurplesonAFB

    There’s a lot of disdain here for black athletes hooking up with white girls on campus. It’s described on the part of the girl as adventurism or being out of her mind. But some white girls especially those who are on teams themselves tend to be very into black men.

    Only due to these impressionable white girls being brainwashed by the media and leftist culture on campus. White females used to have more pride and common sense and their families would inculcate this into them. Plus as been noted here, women have more of the traitorous tendencies such as all the French women who went out and had sexual relations with the temporary winners in WW2 (German occupiers)

  40. @Bugg
    At a loss why baseball, hockey, golf and tennis players can and do turn pro without ever going to college. Colleges are or should be educational institutions rather than minor leagues. Have a friend who's nephew was drafted by an NHL team. This boy as a teen left his home to play junior hockey in another state and decided to forego 2 scholarship offers at big time hockey schools to stay with a major junior team. Worked in a fast food restaurant as a teen with a guy who was drafted by an MLB team and played minor league ball. Same thing; if it doesn't work out go get another career. Which is what happened to the later.And worked with a guy who starred at a Big East basketball school who recognized while he was good he would never make the NBA and got his degree and went to law school instead . Which is how things should ideally work .

    The NBA and the NFL are beginning to consider using minor developmental leagues for players who have no academic background but want to turn pro. But with March Madness as huge as it is and a football playoff starting this season, more likely colleges with major sports programs will continue to bring players onto their campuses that have no business nor intention of getting an education.As a parent saving for a son's education, I have no sympathy for "student athletes" who are not students. But doubt things will change much.

    Replies: @RT Rider, @Oldeguy, @Lurker

    Those “minor developmental leagues” would be of tremendous benefit in ending the farce of illiterate thugs being wildly cheered on at stadiums packed with educated White alumni because the thugs are “representing” their University. Can’t happen soon enough.

  41. @Anonymous

    @Soren

    @Lot and @Hapalong Cassidy

    I’m going to keep it esoteric for you guys, but read the accusers text messages… a dating service where people are looking for marriage is not a campus… sloots are gonna sloot.
     

    You find equivalent stats at hookup sites like Tinder, which is popular with college students. White women like white men. Asian women like white then Asian men. Black women like black men. Hispanic women like white, Hispanic, then black men. White men are the most desirable across all groups. Asian women are the most desirable across all groups. Asian men are the least desirable across all groups. Black women are the least desirable across all groups.

    And a part of these stats is simply one race replying to a message by another race, i.e., even mild curiosity with no intention of hooking up or dating.

    Replies: @Anon, @soren

    I don’t dispute these stats in the least(in fact I often extol them), but it’s a matter of situational status semiotics… an internet dating service is much different than a college campus bar… on the internet people are more analytic and are more self-aware about the possibilities of deception and are more future time oriented… at a college bar where they are out to have fun they’re more instinctual and are thinking more about immediate fun and maybe social status… often false rape charges occur when the “fun” ends and it harms the girls social status because either the interaction is found out and people think less of the girl OR the guy abandons the girl and she gets angry that he’s not with her to raise her status.

    Race matters but talking about race in an extremely essentialized way can lead to absurdities… both anti-racists and “racists” are guilty of this… there are advantages to being white in the dating market but there are also advantages to being the tall, athletic, school hero regardless of race. Again, it’s a matter of situational status semiotics.

  42. @Ted
    Winston and the white girl had been hooking up for months. She decided to try to wreck Winston when 1. He wouldn't leave his girlfriend for her and 2. Her father found out she was intimate with a Black Man

    Replies: @soren

    I think the girl is lying but the rumor that she knew Jameis before going to the bar was refuted a long time ago by the State Attorney and the fact you’re still peddling it is pathetic.

  43. @Anonymous
    There's a lot of disdain here for black athletes hooking up with white girls on campus. It's described on the part of the girl as adventurism or being out of her mind. But some white girls especially those who are on teams themselves tend to be very into black men.

    Replies: @Clyde, @BurplesonAFB

    Yes some are, and it only took 18 years of Viacom to make them so.

  44. There’s a lot of disdain here for black athletes hooking up with white girls on campus

    Naturally.

    But some white girls especially those who are overweight and/or have emotional/psychological problems tend to be very into black men.

    Fixed.

  45. @Suburban_elk
    White girls black athletes and college "rape" culture.

    These days and times, there is no agreement about what rape is: consent as a barometer is unworkable. Black athletes on campus take advantage of a situation: white girls put themselves out and get "raped".

    The white male power structure in the South and Seattle and everywhere else, knows the score: the girlies wents to the party and then for various reasons (including visceral disgust) feels bad and changes her mind and calls "rape" on the play. Who expects the 20 year-old jockaroos not to take advantage? they are not that dumb!

    Big time college sports, football and basketball, is the symbol of white America. The white male power structure (no quotes: the actual money in Atlanta and the fans in Seattle) gives its girls to the beast. The money men and the fan boys, they would like to go the party after the game, and just to watch.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @David R. Merridale

    Now, that’s not exactly true regarding an important point. IF a girl is given a date rape drug and rendered unconscious and has violent physical marks and bruises on her body.

    I think most rational people would agree that in a court of law, that would definitely constitute rape.

    Go read the Seattle Times investigative story regarding Jerramy Stevens and then tell us that that was not an assault but “consent”. I want to hear that. Oh, and she experienced severe trauma as well. Or was that just faking it?

    So, basically you’re also using sports to once again blame whitey for something. Anything. It HAS to be YT’s fault. It certainly can’t be Letrelle’s or DeShanteezious or Robert DeMarcus Willams the third. Personal responsibility is simply too far over on the Bell Curve’s left side and that bar is just too far to reach for these….people?

    Also, how come most white FB/BB players are basically not charged with assault? How come they manage to seldom get charged with violent crimes?

    Just asking.

  46. @Anon
    @Anonymous

    You find equivalent stats at hookup sites like Tinder, which is popular with college students.

    But the predilections of people on hookup sites are not necessarily those of the average joe. It's possible that this is the demographic of people who, in the past, would have frequented prostitutes or been prostitutes.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    No, you’re completely wrong on that one. The ones who just want a simple hookup wouldn’t go to Tinder or other respectable sites because you have to provide a lot of information which can be checked. There’s quite a few hoops to jump thru and its all so respectable.

    People just into hooking up, etc. tend to go for Ashley Madison dating sites. There, there isn’t any mystery or respectability about the whole thing. It is what it is.

    If anything, it could be argued that those on the bell curve’s right side would tend to use dating sites that are respectable and have a well deserved reputation of finding a person’s “soul mate” or “life partner”. OkCupid, for example was founded by ex-Harvard students who studied the ins and outs of trying to find the ideal partner.

    Ashley Madison was founded by….well….a former courtesan to put it mildly.

  47. First of all, let’s remember that A Man in Full is a work of fiction. So the author’s intent rules. This is not a real case about which we can debate various pieces of evidence. Wolfe wrote what he wrote. The first question is to interpret it correctly. After we have done that we can gauge whether we think Wolfe got contemporary reality correct. Extrapolating from an interpretation of the book to assume that the interpreter must think X or Y about this or that real life case is silly. Even if Wolfe wrote Fareek to be 100% innocent, that doesn’t meant that I or any other reader must believe this or that real criminal was also 100% innocent. How such leaps of logic even get made is not something I can understand without recourse to, as Wolfe might put it, “Dr. Freud’s emergency night line.”

    As to what Wolfe, as author, intends: He paints Fareek in an extremely negative light. We see Fareek, IIRC, in only two scenes. First, he appears in Ch. 1 when Roger White visits him at Buck McNutter’s. Second, he is in Ch. 24, when Charlie meets him at the same house. In both instances, he is an entitled, arrogant ass. No one likes him—not his coach, not even his black lawyer who is there to save his ass. Fareek treats everyone trying to help him with total disdain and contempt. Wolfe stacks the deck so much against Fareek—who at one point even invites himself to Charlie’s plantation, and insults Charlie in the process—that the reader is almost double-dared not to think of Fareek as the villain. And, if you’ve ever been around a Division 1A star at this level, they really can be quite a lot like that. (Though note also the much more sympathetic portrayal of big time college athletes, black and white, in I Am Charlotte Simmons.)

    Also, as said, Wolfe drops hints throughout the book that Elizabeth is not a total innocent. I disagree with Steve that this was simply Wolfe changing his mind at the last minute. It is well known, because Wolfe has talked about it at length, that he had a heart attack when he was nearly done with AMiF. But I don’t think this explains what I am pointing out. Wolfe did not change his mind, he planned this part from the beginning. The clues are there in early chapters written years before the heart attack. Also, I asked him point blank and he said he planned that all along.

    I completely disagree that this makes the book on par with To Kill a Mockingbird (which, whatever its flaws, is not a bad book) and it certainly does not make it sentimental. Nor is it some left-wing civil rights tract. Wolfe clearly shows the whole establishment, black and white, rallying around Fareek before they have any of the facts, and he shows that they are not really interested in those facts. They all know what a rotten person Fareek is and they close ranks to try to cover that up and present him as a “good kid” who made it out of the projects, but everyone he comes in contact with finds him to be an entitled ass. If this was a simple morality play, Wolfe would have made Fareek a sympathetic angel.

    The question of the rape is not resolved in the book. And, if this were a real case, it’s hard to see how it could be. Elizabeth, again, didn’t report the “rape” to the police, campus security, her parents, or anyone. There are no witnesses to the alleged crime. There are, however, witnesses who see Fareek and Elizabeth meet in a restaurant and flirt, and then see her willingly accept an invitation back to his apartment, and then willingly go into his bedroom. There is, presumably, no physical evidence. All there is, then, is he-said, she-said about what went on in that room.

    Whatever happened—and it’s quite possible and even likely that Fareek was super aggressive with Elizabeth and she really underestimated what she was getting into—she was still an idiot for putting herself in that situation. Perhaps, as Steve suggests elsewhere, her parents and other authority figures were too PC to teach her elementary common sense, a la Hannah Graham. Quite plausible. But Elizabeth still did put herself in that situation, and even eagerly sought Fareek’s company, the book shows. And whatever happened, it’s almost certainly not true that she was simply pinioned and forcibly raped in the way that (say) Dr. Melfi was on The Sopranos.

    I think this is another instance of Wolfe being clearly ahead of his time. He’s showing the dark or low side of female sexuality. Among other things, to lust after big superstars (“hypergamy”) and to cry “rape” as a cover for mere “regret” (Oh, damn, I don’t want to get a reputation as a slut!).

    Some commenters here seem to be upset at the possibility that book does not make the black kid an unadulterated villain, as if Wolfe has somehow let down the HDB team, or has chickened out and gone PC, if Fareek is not unquestionably guilty. But Wolfe is more nuanced than that. For one thing, even if Fareek is NOT 100% guilty, the novel still does illustrate exactly the phenomenon that Steve’s original post raises. Second, by showing the feral, lust-fueled risk-taking stupidity of a rich white co-ed, Wolfe is saying something quite un-PC indeed.

    Funny, so Wolfe lets down the HBD crowd by not making Fareek a total thug-rapist, but on the other hand, his novel supports the equally un-PC “red pill” crowd by showing the bogus nature of a lot of campus “rape” scandals, all of which needless to say go against males. If the book were to be updated for our time (it is 16 years old), Elizabeth could anonymously accuse Fareek to a campus rape tribunal, at which he would not be able to confront his accuser, or even know who she is, or call his own witnesses, or introduce exculpatory evidence, or be represented by counsel, and the standard for conviction is the lowest allowable by law. And that’s not even the whole list of what makes these kangaroo courts so awful.

    At one point McNutter (Fareek’s couch) explains to Charlie how girls these days just shamelessly, openly throw themselves at star athletes. Wolfe shows this in much greater detail in I Am Charlotte Simmons.

    BTW, to someone who brought up Charlotte, while she is far more admirable and innocent than Elizabeth, she also plays an important role in her own downfall. It’s crystal clear the first time she meets Hoyt that he doesn’t know her name or care, and that he takes her upstairs expecting to have sex with her on the spot. She leaves outraged, but also insanely attracted and keeps going back there to see him and to make out with him. She is naïve, yes, but hardly a complete innocent.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @manton

    Life isn't as completely nuanced as you think. Many times there are bad people who commit horrible acts.

    It doesnt really matter what the motives are for why the town closes ranks around the the guy. In the end, they were right. Results are all that matter, just like in the real world. Who among anyone has perfect motives 100% of the time? No one.

    To Kill a Mockingbird wasn't a great book either. It certainly has no business being on the top five list of greatest US 20th century books ever written. It is its message, YT's racist power structure is to blame for everything that is wrong in the South, that has its lasting appeal to leftists at large.

    Basically what you fail to observe is this: While yes, those supporting Fareek did so for the wrong reasons, ultimately they were right. AND, Wolfe could've been more daring by actually making Fareek out in the end to be the rapist, in the end, he basically took the path of least resistance and made him to be the stereotypical not perfect and definitely flawed...victim of (perhaps in part) a racial lynching. That type of book has been overwritten and then some. It was starting to get old even before Wolf. Anyone can do that and many authors have. It's the old "No, he's not perfect, he does have his faults, a horrible person, etc but that doesnt make him a rapist/murderer/etc.

    Nope. Wolfe had a chance to be different and actually make the person guilty and he dropped the ball. So in that sense, the end result is quite similar to To Kill a Mockingbird. BOTH are innocent of the crimes. No he's not a saint, but not a rapist.

    That was a minor subplot of OJ Simpson's defense, by the way. Not perfect, but not guilty.

    Again, I think in fairness and as a good contrast to this book, that you and others would be served to at least read thru the Seattle Times in-depth investigative piece on UW's Jerramy Stevens. Then tell us if you think that Stevens was in fact the innocent party and that the person who filed charges vs him was some slut who was just asking for it.

    Fair is fair. One is of course fiction that has greatly impacted society at large while the other, admittedly, is an actual real world event that happened about ten yrs ago.

    I stand by what was said: In some ways, this book is quite similar to the message (if you examine it close enough under the surface) to Lee's To Kill a Mockingbird. Both men who were charged with rape in the end were innocent victims of the charges. BOTH in the end were victims of a witchunting lynching. While Mockingbird was literal lynching, Wolf's book does not make Fareek the actual villian. That indeed would've been most daring to do, and even more so in 2014 (to actually make a minority guilty of the crime he was originally charged with).

    Funny, I'm having a hard time trying to recall a recently written novel where a minority has ever turned out to be guilty as charged of a major violent crime (rape in particular but obviously others as well). Certainly Hollywood doesn't produce such films.

    And that's why I tend to be skeptical of novels such as these. Because I live in the real world I have to go by actual crime stats per the US government regarding violent crime. If what I read in fiction doesn't actually pair up and jibe with real life, then.....well, it is only but fiction after all.

    But seriously, I do suggest that you and others here read the Seattle Times account on Jarramy Stevens (wikipedia has the link). Granted, the reporters covering the case aren't as creative but I think they do tend to make the point (based on solid research) as to who is the innocent victim and who is guilty and should've been charged.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    , @WhatEvvs
    @manton

    "Extrapolating from an interpretation of the book to assume that the interpreter must think X or Y about this or that real life case is silly."

    That happens a lot on the 'net, in comments and also the posts. Here & elsewhere.

    Whenever I read anything that begins promisingly, and the author/commenter gives an example from a movie, or a book, I immediately turn off. Because an example from a movie or a book isn't evidence.

    Exception: something about early 19th century England morals, that uses Austen as an example, or Russian 19th century peasant life that references Chekhov, well, that's different. But it still wouldn't be proof.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

  48. Before Tom Wolfe dealt with these aspects of society (e.g. hooking up with the wrong sort of folks, etc) there was a 1949 film called The Heiress. It won an academy award for Olivia Dehavilland (who, at 98yrs old is still alive and living in Paris).

    In it, a wealthy widower with his only daughter who is not too pretty but ordinary. She falls head over heels for a dashing young attractive man. The problem is, all his sweet talk and finery is just window dressing. In reality he’s a ne’er do well, a bum. He simply is using her to gain access to her fortune which she will inherit once the father passes away.

    Meanwhile, the father immediately recognizes the dashing young bachelor for what he is: A fraud and who just wants the money.

    Unlike today’s parents who would opt for political correctness and never bother to say anything, the father speaks bluntly, frankly to his daughter about what the person is like and what he’s after. It isn’t easy to do but he respects his daughter too much to allow her to throw her life away. And remember, this could be the only suitor she ever will have.

    After being severely hurt, the daughter wises up. The father dies, and she inherits his money. The man returns again this time to try and hook up with her figuring now he’s got a clear road to getting the money.

    She leads him on for awhile and then….slams the door shut in his face!

    Yup, The Heiress ought to be required watching for all young teenage daughters. Perhaps it could be updated one day.

  49. @manton
    First of all, let’s remember that A Man in Full is a work of fiction. So the author’s intent rules. This is not a real case about which we can debate various pieces of evidence. Wolfe wrote what he wrote. The first question is to interpret it correctly. After we have done that we can gauge whether we think Wolfe got contemporary reality correct. Extrapolating from an interpretation of the book to assume that the interpreter must think X or Y about this or that real life case is silly. Even if Wolfe wrote Fareek to be 100% innocent, that doesn’t meant that I or any other reader must believe this or that real criminal was also 100% innocent. How such leaps of logic even get made is not something I can understand without recourse to, as Wolfe might put it, “Dr. Freud’s emergency night line.”

    As to what Wolfe, as author, intends: He paints Fareek in an extremely negative light. We see Fareek, IIRC, in only two scenes. First, he appears in Ch. 1 when Roger White visits him at Buck McNutter’s. Second, he is in Ch. 24, when Charlie meets him at the same house. In both instances, he is an entitled, arrogant ass. No one likes him—not his coach, not even his black lawyer who is there to save his ass. Fareek treats everyone trying to help him with total disdain and contempt. Wolfe stacks the deck so much against Fareek—who at one point even invites himself to Charlie’s plantation, and insults Charlie in the process—that the reader is almost double-dared not to think of Fareek as the villain. And, if you’ve ever been around a Division 1A star at this level, they really can be quite a lot like that. (Though note also the much more sympathetic portrayal of big time college athletes, black and white, in I Am Charlotte Simmons.)

    Also, as said, Wolfe drops hints throughout the book that Elizabeth is not a total innocent. I disagree with Steve that this was simply Wolfe changing his mind at the last minute. It is well known, because Wolfe has talked about it at length, that he had a heart attack when he was nearly done with AMiF. But I don’t think this explains what I am pointing out. Wolfe did not change his mind, he planned this part from the beginning. The clues are there in early chapters written years before the heart attack. Also, I asked him point blank and he said he planned that all along.

    I completely disagree that this makes the book on par with To Kill a Mockingbird (which, whatever its flaws, is not a bad book) and it certainly does not make it sentimental. Nor is it some left-wing civil rights tract. Wolfe clearly shows the whole establishment, black and white, rallying around Fareek before they have any of the facts, and he shows that they are not really interested in those facts. They all know what a rotten person Fareek is and they close ranks to try to cover that up and present him as a “good kid” who made it out of the projects, but everyone he comes in contact with finds him to be an entitled ass. If this was a simple morality play, Wolfe would have made Fareek a sympathetic angel.

    The question of the rape is not resolved in the book. And, if this were a real case, it’s hard to see how it could be. Elizabeth, again, didn’t report the "rape" to the police, campus security, her parents, or anyone. There are no witnesses to the alleged crime. There are, however, witnesses who see Fareek and Elizabeth meet in a restaurant and flirt, and then see her willingly accept an invitation back to his apartment, and then willingly go into his bedroom. There is, presumably, no physical evidence. All there is, then, is he-said, she-said about what went on in that room.

    Whatever happened—and it’s quite possible and even likely that Fareek was super aggressive with Elizabeth and she really underestimated what she was getting into—she was still an idiot for putting herself in that situation. Perhaps, as Steve suggests elsewhere, her parents and other authority figures were too PC to teach her elementary common sense, a la Hannah Graham. Quite plausible. But Elizabeth still did put herself in that situation, and even eagerly sought Fareek’s company, the book shows. And whatever happened, it’s almost certainly not true that she was simply pinioned and forcibly raped in the way that (say) Dr. Melfi was on The Sopranos.

    I think this is another instance of Wolfe being clearly ahead of his time. He’s showing the dark or low side of female sexuality. Among other things, to lust after big superstars (“hypergamy”) and to cry “rape” as a cover for mere “regret” (Oh, damn, I don’t want to get a reputation as a slut!).

    Some commenters here seem to be upset at the possibility that book does not make the black kid an unadulterated villain, as if Wolfe has somehow let down the HDB team, or has chickened out and gone PC, if Fareek is not unquestionably guilty. But Wolfe is more nuanced than that. For one thing, even if Fareek is NOT 100% guilty, the novel still does illustrate exactly the phenomenon that Steve’s original post raises. Second, by showing the feral, lust-fueled risk-taking stupidity of a rich white co-ed, Wolfe is saying something quite un-PC indeed.

    Funny, so Wolfe lets down the HBD crowd by not making Fareek a total thug-rapist, but on the other hand, his novel supports the equally un-PC “red pill” crowd by showing the bogus nature of a lot of campus “rape” scandals, all of which needless to say go against males. If the book were to be updated for our time (it is 16 years old), Elizabeth could anonymously accuse Fareek to a campus rape tribunal, at which he would not be able to confront his accuser, or even know who she is, or call his own witnesses, or introduce exculpatory evidence, or be represented by counsel, and the standard for conviction is the lowest allowable by law. And that’s not even the whole list of what makes these kangaroo courts so awful.

    At one point McNutter (Fareek’s couch) explains to Charlie how girls these days just shamelessly, openly throw themselves at star athletes. Wolfe shows this in much greater detail in I Am Charlotte Simmons.

    BTW, to someone who brought up Charlotte, while she is far more admirable and innocent than Elizabeth, she also plays an important role in her own downfall. It’s crystal clear the first time she meets Hoyt that he doesn’t know her name or care, and that he takes her upstairs expecting to have sex with her on the spot. She leaves outraged, but also insanely attracted and keeps going back there to see him and to make out with him. She is naïve, yes, but hardly a complete innocent.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @WhatEvvs

    Life isn’t as completely nuanced as you think. Many times there are bad people who commit horrible acts.

    It doesnt really matter what the motives are for why the town closes ranks around the the guy. In the end, they were right. Results are all that matter, just like in the real world. Who among anyone has perfect motives 100% of the time? No one.

    To Kill a Mockingbird wasn’t a great book either. It certainly has no business being on the top five list of greatest US 20th century books ever written. It is its message, YT’s racist power structure is to blame for everything that is wrong in the South, that has its lasting appeal to leftists at large.

    Basically what you fail to observe is this: While yes, those supporting Fareek did so for the wrong reasons, ultimately they were right. AND, Wolfe could’ve been more daring by actually making Fareek out in the end to be the rapist, in the end, he basically took the path of least resistance and made him to be the stereotypical not perfect and definitely flawed…victim of (perhaps in part) a racial lynching. That type of book has been overwritten and then some. It was starting to get old even before Wolf. Anyone can do that and many authors have. It’s the old “No, he’s not perfect, he does have his faults, a horrible person, etc but that doesnt make him a rapist/murderer/etc.

    Nope. Wolfe had a chance to be different and actually make the person guilty and he dropped the ball. So in that sense, the end result is quite similar to To Kill a Mockingbird. BOTH are innocent of the crimes. No he’s not a saint, but not a rapist.

    That was a minor subplot of OJ Simpson’s defense, by the way. Not perfect, but not guilty.

    Again, I think in fairness and as a good contrast to this book, that you and others would be served to at least read thru the Seattle Times in-depth investigative piece on UW’s Jerramy Stevens. Then tell us if you think that Stevens was in fact the innocent party and that the person who filed charges vs him was some slut who was just asking for it.

    Fair is fair. One is of course fiction that has greatly impacted society at large while the other, admittedly, is an actual real world event that happened about ten yrs ago.

    I stand by what was said: In some ways, this book is quite similar to the message (if you examine it close enough under the surface) to Lee’s To Kill a Mockingbird. Both men who were charged with rape in the end were innocent victims of the charges. BOTH in the end were victims of a witchunting lynching. While Mockingbird was literal lynching, Wolf’s book does not make Fareek the actual villian. That indeed would’ve been most daring to do, and even more so in 2014 (to actually make a minority guilty of the crime he was originally charged with).

    Funny, I’m having a hard time trying to recall a recently written novel where a minority has ever turned out to be guilty as charged of a major violent crime (rape in particular but obviously others as well). Certainly Hollywood doesn’t produce such films.

    And that’s why I tend to be skeptical of novels such as these. Because I live in the real world I have to go by actual crime stats per the US government regarding violent crime. If what I read in fiction doesn’t actually pair up and jibe with real life, then…..well, it is only but fiction after all.

    But seriously, I do suggest that you and others here read the Seattle Times account on Jarramy Stevens (wikipedia has the link). Granted, the reporters covering the case aren’t as creative but I think they do tend to make the point (based on solid research) as to who is the innocent victim and who is guilty and should’ve been charged.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi


    investigative piece on UW’s Jerramy Stevens
     
    Funny you should bring up Jerramy…

    Mrs Jerramy Stevens, Hope Solo-- the Cy Young of lady soccer goalies-- is in the news for being charged with beating up her teenage nephew and his mother, her long-estranged half-sister. But the soccer establishment and her endorsees are standing behind her and allowing her to play because, dammit, she's got a record to set.

    Why is this of note to iStevers? Well, a bunch of columnists, female columnists, starting with Andrea Peyser at the NY Post, down through the NYT, WaPo, USA T, etc, are going on about a double standard.

    A sexual double standard!

    Black players are going down like flies for domestic assault (yes, finally). A white athlete skates. It's big news. Yet…

    Not one commentator of importance mentions a racial double standard!

    Is this wacky? Or is it progress?

    To be fair, Mrs Stevens does have her defenders, including America's most female journalist, Ta-Nehisi Coates.

  50. I don’t really understand what you’re trying to say. Of course life is nuanced. There are open-shut cases and there are ambiguous cases and there are phony or mistaken prosecutions. The mere existence of open-shut cases (sticking to Wolfe for the moment, he says in Bonfire that 98% of the cases tried in the Bronx, the defendants were truly guilty) doesn’t prove that life is not nuanced.

    In any event, I said Wolfe and his book are nuanced, which they are. It really wouldn’t be all that interesting to write a novel about an open-shut rape case. What would we learn from that? Wolfe does something much more interesting that teaches us much more.

    I didn’t say TKaM is “great” and I agree it’s overrated, but it’s a good book, with a great characters, a well rendered setting, and a well-executed plot. It may seem tired today to have a black man accused of X and turn out to be innocent because by now that’s been done to death. But in 1960, it was still rather fresh. And that was before the end of Jim Crow. Let’s all try to remember that there used to be quite a lot of racial injustice going the other way. All the true things Steve points out about the stupidity and corruption of our times doesn’t make of that not true.

    As to the rest, I think you’re wrong and I urge to re-read the book. Fareek is presented as an awful person. His own (black) lawyer says this about him: “one of the worst black role models you could emulate: the big-time athlete, the mercenary for hire who assumes that the world owes him money and sex, and lots of both, whenever he wants it, and that he will be immune, whatever happens.” In the book’s final scene, the (black) mayor says much the same thing about him. Many reviewers, when the book came out, accused Wolfe of creating just another racist stereotype a la Rev. Bacon.

    And, no, Fareek is not, finally, presented as a victim. No charges are ever filed. No disciplinary action is taken. He stays on the team. He remains a star. He is headed for the NFL and greater fame and fortune. And all the girls he wants to nail, for free. He has learned nothing and changed not one iota.

    The question, it seems to me, is does Wolfe’s account more or less square with reality? That is, are the majority of these sexual encounters between star athletes and reckless co-eds flat out hold-her-down-as-she-kicks-and-screams-no! rapes? Or are they more ambiguous, with the girls at the very least starting something they later regret, but don’t try to stop at the time, in the moment?

    Stipulate that your real life case is every bit as bad as you think it is. Is that common? The majority of such cases?

    http://www.city-journal.org/2008/18_1_campus_rape.html

    If the one-in-four statistic is correct—it is sometimes modified to “one-in-five to one-in-four”—campus rape represents a crime wave of unprecedented proportions. No crime, much less one as serious as rape, has a victimization rate remotely approaching 20 or 25 percent, even over many years. The 2006 violent crime rate in Detroit, one of the most violent cities in America, was 2,400 murders, rapes, robberies, and aggravated assaults per 100,000 inhabitants—a rate of 2.4 percent. The one-in-four statistic would mean that every year, millions of young women graduate who have suffered the most terrifying assault, short of murder, that a woman can experience. Such a crime wave would require nothing less than a state of emergency—Take Back the Night rallies and 24-hour hotlines would hardly be adequate to counter this tsunami of sexual violence. Admissions policies letting in tens of thousands of vicious criminals would require a complete revision, perhaps banning boys entirely. The nation’s nearly 10 million female undergrads would need to take the most stringent safety precautions. Certainly, they would have to alter their sexual behavior radically to avoid falling prey to the rape epidemic.

    None of this crisis response occurs, of course—because the crisis doesn’t exist.

    Basically, you’re reviewing a book Wolfe didn’t write.

    As to pop culture not showing blacks as criminals, have you seen The Wire?

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @manton

    So then I must assume you are not going to read the Seattle Times investigative piece and that it simply is an outlier and is in fact not representative of NCAA athletes charged with violent crimes in general. So in effect, you are not willing to concede that NCAA athletes are ever guilty of crimes they are charged with.

    You most strongly implied that To Kill a Mockingbird deserves its status as among the greatest US novels ever written in 20th century. And thank you for the obligatory leftist dig "It was Jim Crow, boo hoo hoo, so everything as we all know was sooo bad during that era." By the way, lynching in the South was not the daily or monthly occurrence as Erich Fromer would have you believe. From 1868-1970 period, only about 3k blacks were lynched out of 4.5k lynchings (yes, whites were also lynched). So what? Boo hoo hoo forever because of the "sin" of Jim Crow? Time to turn the page and move on. No, I don't agree that tons and tons of racial injustices occurred during the Jim Crow era without push back from the other side. Also, Jim Crow officially ended in 1954 w/Brown vs Board of Education and not in 1960 as you state. That's a big difference because the Civil Rights Movt was by '60 fully underway (Rosa Parks, U.ofArkansas, sit-ins etc had all occurred well before '60).

    This plot device, while not directly tied to race, had by this time been wearing thin and remains a standard stock plot device in many morality tales. It was starting to get old by the early 60s in point of fact, where the presumed guilty suspect in a novel turns out to be innocent. (e.g. '57's 12 Angry Men). One prominent example (and it was quite the opposite in literature or film) was Agatha Christie's Witness for the Prosecution where the guilty is sympathetic but in the end it is revealed that he was in fact guilty as charged. Its just so rare in fiction. It certainly isn't anywhere near frequent.

    In short, Wolfe dropped the ball. Really daring would have been to make Fareek guilty as charged. But instead he chose a semi-Jimmy Carter type of tsk tsking on society at large: 'THIS time, this NCAA player isn't guilty, and he's a bad dude, but he continues to go and will go to the NFL. Perhaps he'll commit a more heinous crime, perhaps he'll have the good fortune of others running interference for him as in this novel, but ultimately, SOCIETY is to blame for not attending to him early as a child and combatting his less than stellar character.'

    Sorry, but this "nuance" of Wolfe's is nothing more than just a cop out. Really daring would've been to make the less than perfect character actually guilty as charged. We would then learn that yes, contrary to leftist propaganda going back for at least a half century, blacks are often in fact guilty as charged. Again, you seldom see this directly stated in film or in fiction at large.

    COPS would've been a more realistic show which does tend to show blacks as perps. In The Wire, the ULTIMATE villain if you recall, is the WHITE power structure that led to the problems to begin with. Whites don't escape entirely the blame of the drug wars and the author is quite clear on that point. That's virtually it as far as blacks being guilty as charged in novels or film.

    Regarding Detroit, I would suggest, for balance, that you read Paul Kersey and his dissection regarding Detroit's violent crime rate. He breaks it down by race. Hint: Whites aren't committing the bulk of the violent crimes in Detroit (or most other major US cities for that matter).

    The fact that you admittedly refuse to read and consider that this case re: Jerramy Stevens happens more than you are willing to admit, is just amazing. In this day and age to suggest that rape hardly occurs on a college campus and by NCAA athletes is most telling. It almost smacks of sexism/mysogynistic (she had it coming after all) attitudes that various women's groups are trying so hard to confront, educate, and help to bring to light what does occur on college campuses.

    The ending is PC. Squaring with reality would've been to not only make the athlete a total jerk but also to make him guilty. But again, the fact that he does not implies most strongly that rape simply doesnt ever occur in any significant number on college campuses much less in real life.

    Most strongly disagree with that assessment that "open and shut" cases teach us nothing about real life. Of course they do. They teach us, if we're willing to learn, that contrary to what our pre-conceived notions and biases were, that yes, oftentimes bad people commit bad acts and are caught.
    We must also acknowledge the real world interpretation of nuance. For the last half century, nuanced means having an actual bias, an agenda. As in To Kill a Mockingbird. That was a screed with a clearly written agenda in mind (serving as a morality tale to slut shame all whites for their alleged racial sins etc.). Having an agenda is considered nuanced; the writer or screenwriter can insert his interpretation of what he considers to be a more "accurate" way of how life is whereas in point of fact most times it is the leftist agenda at work.

    For the leftist, art does not exist for anything other than to impart the agenda and the narrative to the masses. Some "nuance" can exist but only if it serves the larger purpose of "correct" interpretation of events. (e.g. regarding race relations, whites are always bad and blacks, while at times flawed, are most often good; because of their pure motives they are never to be guilty but rather instead are victims).

    In that sense, most likely without realizing it, Wolfe's character serves as a useful purpose. Fareed is a victim of the racist white power structure which supports the entire edifice of NCAA football.

    I do not stipulate anything. If you refuse to read the Jerramy Stevens investigation, then so be it. Let others read about a star stand out NCAA TE on a Division 1 University who was initially charged but then not with a most heinous crime. I am stating that contrary to Wolfe, in the real world the facts per the US government on violent crime isn't nuanced. One key group appears to be committing the bulk of violent crimes which include rapes. This also includes rape on NCAA campuses and as my point was, among NCAA athletes at large.

    I do hope that others will read the Seattle Times investigation piece with an open mind and no pre-conceived bias one way or the other. I will maintain that this real world incident is more typical than that "nuanced" found in fiction.

  51. Jameis Winston was suspended for half a game IIRC for standing up on a table in the Student Union and screaming an internet meme obscenity. You can google for it, its not G-rated so I won’t post it.

    That behavior, after all his difficulties, rape investigation, taking crab legs out of a store without paying for it (like “Gentle Giant” Mike Brown of Ferguson) seems to me to indicate a low not a high IQ. Probably around 68-72. By contrast, Ben Roethlisberger after several sexual assault allegations wised up and avoids bars and further trouble in favor of making lots of money. [Roethlisberger was still dropped by most of his sponsors and has not been picked up.]

    I think we are peak Black Athlete.

    College Football makes FAR too much money even for smaller schools to go away. BUT … a number of schools are one massive lawsuit away from being nearly bankrupted or bankrupted.

    This is particularly true with Chinese students flooding in, many from the lower levels of China’s aristocracy and with money and power. All it takes is a beating, rape, or whatever of one of China’s lesser princelings or princesses and you can look at a massive lawsuit. Already USC was sued by the parents of the two grad students (without much money/connections/power in China) slain just off campus for deceiving them about safety. Or it could be an Asian, or Latino, or Gay/Transgender (World War T!) student suing.

    Having large, aggression filled, entitled Black guys without the forethought to think, “there goes my NFL career and endorsement contracts” when confronted by an easy target, is a recipe for massive lawsuits and is bound to happen. Particularly with an oversupply of lawyers looking to make a LOT of money. Suppose you’re a law school grad, you can’t find a job, you passed the bar but there’s thousands like you just in your city, and you read about some “Gentle Giant” beating an “uppity” Asian or White or Latino … or Black for that matter student? Whilst ambulance chasing the internet … er researching for clients? Wouldn’t that be an opportunity of a lifetime? To sue say Notre Dame, or Ohio State, or Florida State? Deep pockets, big payoff, big percentage for you. Beats paying your student loan and living on ramen.

    Meanwhile UCLA’s meltdown against Oregon shows the downside of athletic but dumb Black football players. Inability to adjust to a spread offense. A more coordinated, smarter defense able to read on the fly and adjust at the line of scrimmage has the potential to beat even the most athletic guys on the offense. They also come with lower lawsuit risk and they cost less in scholarships.

    Already I’m seeing far more White guys in the NFL, even in traditionally Black spots such as WR, than I did a few years ago.

    As for the White Female / Black Male attraction, it is there, people notice it, it is neither the be all and end all nor is it not there. Gwyneth Paltrow’s reaction to Obama “You’re so handsome I can hardly speak,” is well noted as are the explicit sexual fantasies of him in print in the New York Times by married White female writers. Black men make on average poor providers, their sons are perceived as sexy and dominant but their daughters as ugly and unfeminine. So there’s that. Anecdotally I almost all the professional White women of my acquaintance under 45 have had a bad case of Jungle Fever at one time or another. Women like those temporary winners and can’t abide a project either. As noted above, the same thing happened in Occupied Europe with German soldiers. Rather tellingly, an episode of “Foyle’s War” centers around the “unsexy and bad” returned British soldier crippled in a POW camp at the very end of the War, who is suspected of murdering his wife’s sexy German POW lover, and is “bad” because he reacts badly to his wife’s screwing of the guy. [The German POW was in the story, actually murdered by the sympathetic German-Jewish emigre doctor after seeing newsreel footage of concentration camps and being brusquely pushed down by the German POW.]

    I have never ever seen psychological stuff create attraction to someone. You can’t brainwash men into wanting old or fat women sexually, nor can you brainwash women into wanting beta males either. Sexual desire is beyond brainwashing, it is raw, primal, instinctual, and hard-wired. You can’t make gay people straight or straight people gay. It is just there. Yes, Kanazawa’s study showing Black women are the least attractive, of women of all races, to men of all races, has not been disproven. Nor has the other finding, that Black men were the most attractive of all races, to women of all races. Yeah, Black guys have an advantage over White guys in the raw sexual desire part, on average, no question. To be blunt and honest.

    But raw desire is only part of it. Danger, social opportunity and cost, availability, opportunity cost (pursuing one guy can close the door to others) all play a part in female sexual behavior. Weighting might change to circumstance but its complex always.

    • Replies: @soren
    @Whiskey

    "Yes, Kanazawa’s study showing Black women are the least attractive, of women of all races, to men of all races, has not been disproven. Nor has the other finding, that Black men were the most attractive of all races, to women of all races."

    Nope, it has been debunked... read this...

    http://www.epjournal.net/articles/is-there-and-own-race-preference-in-attractiveness/

    , @Sluggo
    @Whiskey


    You can’t brainwash men into wanting old or fat women sexually, nor can you brainwash women into wanting beta males either. Sexual desire is beyond brainwashing, it is raw, primal, instinctual, and hard-wired. You can’t make gay people straight or straight people gay. It is just there.
     
    Marketing says otherwise. Sarah Jessica Parker is on the cover of women's magazines and is viewed as a sex symbol. She may require a lot of photoshopping, but there she is. Beyonce is another one who was upset when photos of her at the Super Bowl showed her as she actually is rather than her carefully crafted image. I imagine that many guys were disappointed. If marketing and advertising didn't work, nobody would pay for it.

    As for gay people, many are sexually abused at a young age and have a skewed view of sexuality. If that is the case, they certainly weren't "born that way".

    Replies: @Greg

    , @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Whiskey

    Whiskey, you have not finished the story. Men and women are not the same in many aspects including sexual desire.

    Women are from Venus, and men are from Mars.

    Unlike men, there are plenty of women who go for beta males. On second glance it was revealed that the woman was attracted to aspects of his personality, his job, etc. So women tend to weigh a lot of other things in choosing a soul mate. Men just chose physicality.

    I still maintain that for many physically attractive women, Mark Zuckerberg would be their best catch. Still surprised more haven't tried to catch him. He's young, and wealthy beyond any NFL/NBA/rap star ever will be. And he made his money in social media, something where women totally dominate usage as opposed to men.

    Zuckerberg would be a great catch for a cheerleader, a Victoria's Secret/Sports Illustrated model etc.

  52. @manton
    Steve, I don't think so, for a few reasons:

    1) The clues come early in the book. E.g., the restaurant scene where Martha sees Ellen Armholster, who snubs her, and Martha complains to her companion about all the times Ellen has spilt her guts about daughter Elizabeth. So Elizabeth is set up in the first third to be a not-so-compelling victim.

    2) The details of the case. Elizabeth insists that her parents not go to the police. In fact, she doesn't even tell them. A friend of Elizabeth's tells the friend's mom, who tells Ellen, who goes nuts. Elizabeth wants the whole thing to go away.

    3) The very opening scene, at the plantation, is the day after the alleged rape. This is only revealed if you pay attention to the way Wolfe sets the date and the time, which he does in an offhand way, and he only backfills this information, which means that one is likely to miss it on a first read and not even pick up on it on a second read unless you are looking for it. But it's after the "rape" and Elizabeth is far from traumatized. She is riding back on horseback with Serena (the other women are in the buckboards) and giggling and gossiping. And she just was "raped" 12 hours before?

    4) The theme of female adventurism (for lack of a better term) is explored more deeply in Charlotte Simmons and Back to Blood. It wasn't an afterthought here. Wolfe is foreshadowing something that he wrote about in more depth in those books and in the essay "Hooking Up."

    5) I asked him about this and he confirmed my interpretation, so I have it on good authority that I'm right.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @OsRazor, @Curle

    Enjoyed the criticism. I read the book years ago and to the best of my recollection missed the theme you highlight/spotted. A good argument for reading good literature several times. I’m also pleased to see there are people here in the alt right who take literature seriously. I’m getting very, very tired of drone Republicans who scoff at literature as sissy boy stuff. I think it is one reason Republicans lose the message wars.

  53. @Whiskey
    Jameis Winston was suspended for half a game IIRC for standing up on a table in the Student Union and screaming an internet meme obscenity. You can google for it, its not G-rated so I won't post it.

    That behavior, after all his difficulties, rape investigation, taking crab legs out of a store without paying for it (like "Gentle Giant" Mike Brown of Ferguson) seems to me to indicate a low not a high IQ. Probably around 68-72. By contrast, Ben Roethlisberger after several sexual assault allegations wised up and avoids bars and further trouble in favor of making lots of money. [Roethlisberger was still dropped by most of his sponsors and has not been picked up.]

    I think we are peak Black Athlete.

    College Football makes FAR too much money even for smaller schools to go away. BUT ... a number of schools are one massive lawsuit away from being nearly bankrupted or bankrupted.

    This is particularly true with Chinese students flooding in, many from the lower levels of China's aristocracy and with money and power. All it takes is a beating, rape, or whatever of one of China's lesser princelings or princesses and you can look at a massive lawsuit. Already USC was sued by the parents of the two grad students (without much money/connections/power in China) slain just off campus for deceiving them about safety. Or it could be an Asian, or Latino, or Gay/Transgender (World War T!) student suing.

    Having large, aggression filled, entitled Black guys without the forethought to think, "there goes my NFL career and endorsement contracts" when confronted by an easy target, is a recipe for massive lawsuits and is bound to happen. Particularly with an oversupply of lawyers looking to make a LOT of money. Suppose you're a law school grad, you can't find a job, you passed the bar but there's thousands like you just in your city, and you read about some "Gentle Giant" beating an "uppity" Asian or White or Latino ... or Black for that matter student? Whilst ambulance chasing the internet ... er researching for clients? Wouldn't that be an opportunity of a lifetime? To sue say Notre Dame, or Ohio State, or Florida State? Deep pockets, big payoff, big percentage for you. Beats paying your student loan and living on ramen.

    Meanwhile UCLA's meltdown against Oregon shows the downside of athletic but dumb Black football players. Inability to adjust to a spread offense. A more coordinated, smarter defense able to read on the fly and adjust at the line of scrimmage has the potential to beat even the most athletic guys on the offense. They also come with lower lawsuit risk and they cost less in scholarships.

    Already I'm seeing far more White guys in the NFL, even in traditionally Black spots such as WR, than I did a few years ago.

    As for the White Female / Black Male attraction, it is there, people notice it, it is neither the be all and end all nor is it not there. Gwyneth Paltrow's reaction to Obama "You're so handsome I can hardly speak," is well noted as are the explicit sexual fantasies of him in print in the New York Times by married White female writers. Black men make on average poor providers, their sons are perceived as sexy and dominant but their daughters as ugly and unfeminine. So there's that. Anecdotally I almost all the professional White women of my acquaintance under 45 have had a bad case of Jungle Fever at one time or another. Women like those temporary winners and can't abide a project either. As noted above, the same thing happened in Occupied Europe with German soldiers. Rather tellingly, an episode of "Foyle's War" centers around the "unsexy and bad" returned British soldier crippled in a POW camp at the very end of the War, who is suspected of murdering his wife's sexy German POW lover, and is "bad" because he reacts badly to his wife's screwing of the guy. [The German POW was in the story, actually murdered by the sympathetic German-Jewish emigre doctor after seeing newsreel footage of concentration camps and being brusquely pushed down by the German POW.]

    I have never ever seen psychological stuff create attraction to someone. You can't brainwash men into wanting old or fat women sexually, nor can you brainwash women into wanting beta males either. Sexual desire is beyond brainwashing, it is raw, primal, instinctual, and hard-wired. You can't make gay people straight or straight people gay. It is just there. Yes, Kanazawa's study showing Black women are the least attractive, of women of all races, to men of all races, has not been disproven. Nor has the other finding, that Black men were the most attractive of all races, to women of all races. Yeah, Black guys have an advantage over White guys in the raw sexual desire part, on average, no question. To be blunt and honest.

    But raw desire is only part of it. Danger, social opportunity and cost, availability, opportunity cost (pursuing one guy can close the door to others) all play a part in female sexual behavior. Weighting might change to circumstance but its complex always.

    Replies: @soren, @Sluggo, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    “Yes, Kanazawa’s study showing Black women are the least attractive, of women of all races, to men of all races, has not been disproven. Nor has the other finding, that Black men were the most attractive of all races, to women of all races.”

    Nope, it has been debunked… read this…

    http://www.epjournal.net/articles/is-there-and-own-race-preference-in-attractiveness/

  54. “As to pop culture not showing blacks as criminals, have you seen The Wire?”

    Come on, most pop culture is not The Wire.

  55. @Whiskey
    Jameis Winston was suspended for half a game IIRC for standing up on a table in the Student Union and screaming an internet meme obscenity. You can google for it, its not G-rated so I won't post it.

    That behavior, after all his difficulties, rape investigation, taking crab legs out of a store without paying for it (like "Gentle Giant" Mike Brown of Ferguson) seems to me to indicate a low not a high IQ. Probably around 68-72. By contrast, Ben Roethlisberger after several sexual assault allegations wised up and avoids bars and further trouble in favor of making lots of money. [Roethlisberger was still dropped by most of his sponsors and has not been picked up.]

    I think we are peak Black Athlete.

    College Football makes FAR too much money even for smaller schools to go away. BUT ... a number of schools are one massive lawsuit away from being nearly bankrupted or bankrupted.

    This is particularly true with Chinese students flooding in, many from the lower levels of China's aristocracy and with money and power. All it takes is a beating, rape, or whatever of one of China's lesser princelings or princesses and you can look at a massive lawsuit. Already USC was sued by the parents of the two grad students (without much money/connections/power in China) slain just off campus for deceiving them about safety. Or it could be an Asian, or Latino, or Gay/Transgender (World War T!) student suing.

    Having large, aggression filled, entitled Black guys without the forethought to think, "there goes my NFL career and endorsement contracts" when confronted by an easy target, is a recipe for massive lawsuits and is bound to happen. Particularly with an oversupply of lawyers looking to make a LOT of money. Suppose you're a law school grad, you can't find a job, you passed the bar but there's thousands like you just in your city, and you read about some "Gentle Giant" beating an "uppity" Asian or White or Latino ... or Black for that matter student? Whilst ambulance chasing the internet ... er researching for clients? Wouldn't that be an opportunity of a lifetime? To sue say Notre Dame, or Ohio State, or Florida State? Deep pockets, big payoff, big percentage for you. Beats paying your student loan and living on ramen.

    Meanwhile UCLA's meltdown against Oregon shows the downside of athletic but dumb Black football players. Inability to adjust to a spread offense. A more coordinated, smarter defense able to read on the fly and adjust at the line of scrimmage has the potential to beat even the most athletic guys on the offense. They also come with lower lawsuit risk and they cost less in scholarships.

    Already I'm seeing far more White guys in the NFL, even in traditionally Black spots such as WR, than I did a few years ago.

    As for the White Female / Black Male attraction, it is there, people notice it, it is neither the be all and end all nor is it not there. Gwyneth Paltrow's reaction to Obama "You're so handsome I can hardly speak," is well noted as are the explicit sexual fantasies of him in print in the New York Times by married White female writers. Black men make on average poor providers, their sons are perceived as sexy and dominant but their daughters as ugly and unfeminine. So there's that. Anecdotally I almost all the professional White women of my acquaintance under 45 have had a bad case of Jungle Fever at one time or another. Women like those temporary winners and can't abide a project either. As noted above, the same thing happened in Occupied Europe with German soldiers. Rather tellingly, an episode of "Foyle's War" centers around the "unsexy and bad" returned British soldier crippled in a POW camp at the very end of the War, who is suspected of murdering his wife's sexy German POW lover, and is "bad" because he reacts badly to his wife's screwing of the guy. [The German POW was in the story, actually murdered by the sympathetic German-Jewish emigre doctor after seeing newsreel footage of concentration camps and being brusquely pushed down by the German POW.]

    I have never ever seen psychological stuff create attraction to someone. You can't brainwash men into wanting old or fat women sexually, nor can you brainwash women into wanting beta males either. Sexual desire is beyond brainwashing, it is raw, primal, instinctual, and hard-wired. You can't make gay people straight or straight people gay. It is just there. Yes, Kanazawa's study showing Black women are the least attractive, of women of all races, to men of all races, has not been disproven. Nor has the other finding, that Black men were the most attractive of all races, to women of all races. Yeah, Black guys have an advantage over White guys in the raw sexual desire part, on average, no question. To be blunt and honest.

    But raw desire is only part of it. Danger, social opportunity and cost, availability, opportunity cost (pursuing one guy can close the door to others) all play a part in female sexual behavior. Weighting might change to circumstance but its complex always.

    Replies: @soren, @Sluggo, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    You can’t brainwash men into wanting old or fat women sexually, nor can you brainwash women into wanting beta males either. Sexual desire is beyond brainwashing, it is raw, primal, instinctual, and hard-wired. You can’t make gay people straight or straight people gay. It is just there.

    Marketing says otherwise. Sarah Jessica Parker is on the cover of women’s magazines and is viewed as a sex symbol. She may require a lot of photoshopping, but there she is. Beyonce is another one who was upset when photos of her at the Super Bowl showed her as she actually is rather than her carefully crafted image. I imagine that many guys were disappointed. If marketing and advertising didn’t work, nobody would pay for it.

    As for gay people, many are sexually abused at a young age and have a skewed view of sexuality. If that is the case, they certainly weren’t “born that way”.

    • Replies: @Greg
    @Sluggo

    Sarah Jessica Parker a sex symbol? You're joking.

    http://www.thegloss.com/2010/04/26/fashion/why-do-men-hate-sarah-jessica-parker/

  56. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Regarding the looking the other way in NCAA football, it isn't just in the South. The 2000 UW Huskies, winner of the Rose Bowl, were a bad group of thugs all around. The Seattle Times did an investigative story on several of those with off field problems. "The 2000 Huskies were bad all around" or "were a bad group of guys" the investigative story was called, I believe. The point being, the NCAA is really recruiting some thugs over the decades and its not just restricted to the south. Seattle of all places you would tend to think would take a stronger stand vs sexual assault charges. But they did not in this instance. They had a Rose Bowl to win.

    One such standout was star TE and future NFLer Jerramy Stevens. In Stevens junior year, he was arrested but not charged with sexual assault. The details of the case were of a most physically violent nature that should leave no doubt as to his more than likely guilt. The Seattle DA very much wanted to charge him with rape, but her bosses higher up apparently were Huskies fans and refused to permit her to prosecute Stevens. the student left school soon after and attempted to sue the university for its compliance in the case as well. An out of court settlement was reached for around 350k, of which Stevens never had to contribute any since it was paid for by the alumni fund.

    Stevens later married US National Team GK Hope Solo, who is awaiting trial for domestic violence in November. Funny how like attracts its own.

    Replies: @Curle

    “Stevens later married US National Team GK Hope Solo, who is awaiting trial for domestic violence in November. Funny how like attracts its own.” ————————————-

    All this hand wringing over a female ‘assaulting’ a family member, especially when that family member is a male, highlights the manner in which we are all being acclimated to viewing every aspect of human intercourse (old sense not sexual sense) as subject to government intervention. When I was younger the rare instance of females fighting (I attended mostly white schools) was a cause for anticipated hilarity. A little like puppies wrestling. An event of no consequence because of the low likelihood for actual harm. Now, the hand wringers feel the need to elevate all conflicts into an excuse for social intervention and we all feel the need to nod our heads in agreement or face stigmatization.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Curle

    In this case, especially, you don't know of which you speak.

    FACT: She is in the top 1% of pro athletes for women, which means she is still stronger than about 95% of all adult males. She could easily outfight at least half of the US Mens National Team.

    FACT: Domestic abusers can be women as well. Hard to believe but it is true.

    FACT: Had she not been severely intoxicated, the two relatives would've been put in the hospital. On the side, as I assume you don't think the Ray Rice video is funny or a laughing matter why is the idea of a grown mature woman beating up her older sister and minor nephew a cause for a huge guffaw and laughing ol' time?

    The older generations clearly have misplaced ideas regarding some things and domestic abuse would appear to be one of them.

  57. @manton
    I don’t really understand what you’re trying to say. Of course life is nuanced. There are open-shut cases and there are ambiguous cases and there are phony or mistaken prosecutions. The mere existence of open-shut cases (sticking to Wolfe for the moment, he says in Bonfire that 98% of the cases tried in the Bronx, the defendants were truly guilty) doesn’t prove that life is not nuanced.

    In any event, I said Wolfe and his book are nuanced, which they are. It really wouldn’t be all that interesting to write a novel about an open-shut rape case. What would we learn from that? Wolfe does something much more interesting that teaches us much more.

    I didn’t say TKaM is “great” and I agree it’s overrated, but it’s a good book, with a great characters, a well rendered setting, and a well-executed plot. It may seem tired today to have a black man accused of X and turn out to be innocent because by now that’s been done to death. But in 1960, it was still rather fresh. And that was before the end of Jim Crow. Let’s all try to remember that there used to be quite a lot of racial injustice going the other way. All the true things Steve points out about the stupidity and corruption of our times doesn’t make of that not true.

    As to the rest, I think you’re wrong and I urge to re-read the book. Fareek is presented as an awful person. His own (black) lawyer says this about him: “one of the worst black role models you could emulate: the big-time athlete, the mercenary for hire who assumes that the world owes him money and sex, and lots of both, whenever he wants it, and that he will be immune, whatever happens.” In the book’s final scene, the (black) mayor says much the same thing about him. Many reviewers, when the book came out, accused Wolfe of creating just another racist stereotype a la Rev. Bacon.

    And, no, Fareek is not, finally, presented as a victim. No charges are ever filed. No disciplinary action is taken. He stays on the team. He remains a star. He is headed for the NFL and greater fame and fortune. And all the girls he wants to nail, for free. He has learned nothing and changed not one iota.

    The question, it seems to me, is does Wolfe’s account more or less square with reality? That is, are the majority of these sexual encounters between star athletes and reckless co-eds flat out hold-her-down-as-she-kicks-and-screams-no! rapes? Or are they more ambiguous, with the girls at the very least starting something they later regret, but don’t try to stop at the time, in the moment?

    Stipulate that your real life case is every bit as bad as you think it is. Is that common? The majority of such cases?

    http://www.city-journal.org/2008/18_1_campus_rape.html


    If the one-in-four statistic is correct—it is sometimes modified to “one-in-five to one-in-four”—campus rape represents a crime wave of unprecedented proportions. No crime, much less one as serious as rape, has a victimization rate remotely approaching 20 or 25 percent, even over many years. The 2006 violent crime rate in Detroit, one of the most violent cities in America, was 2,400 murders, rapes, robberies, and aggravated assaults per 100,000 inhabitants—a rate of 2.4 percent. The one-in-four statistic would mean that every year, millions of young women graduate who have suffered the most terrifying assault, short of murder, that a woman can experience. Such a crime wave would require nothing less than a state of emergency—Take Back the Night rallies and 24-hour hotlines would hardly be adequate to counter this tsunami of sexual violence. Admissions policies letting in tens of thousands of vicious criminals would require a complete revision, perhaps banning boys entirely. The nation’s nearly 10 million female undergrads would need to take the most stringent safety precautions. Certainly, they would have to alter their sexual behavior radically to avoid falling prey to the rape epidemic.

    None of this crisis response occurs, of course—because the crisis doesn’t exist.
     

    Basically, you're reviewing a book Wolfe didn't write.

    As to pop culture not showing blacks as criminals, have you seen The Wire?

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    So then I must assume you are not going to read the Seattle Times investigative piece and that it simply is an outlier and is in fact not representative of NCAA athletes charged with violent crimes in general. So in effect, you are not willing to concede that NCAA athletes are ever guilty of crimes they are charged with.

    You most strongly implied that To Kill a Mockingbird deserves its status as among the greatest US novels ever written in 20th century. And thank you for the obligatory leftist dig “It was Jim Crow, boo hoo hoo, so everything as we all know was sooo bad during that era.” By the way, lynching in the South was not the daily or monthly occurrence as Erich Fromer would have you believe. From 1868-1970 period, only about 3k blacks were lynched out of 4.5k lynchings (yes, whites were also lynched). So what? Boo hoo hoo forever because of the “sin” of Jim Crow? Time to turn the page and move on. No, I don’t agree that tons and tons of racial injustices occurred during the Jim Crow era without push back from the other side. Also, Jim Crow officially ended in 1954 w/Brown vs Board of Education and not in 1960 as you state. That’s a big difference because the Civil Rights Movt was by ’60 fully underway (Rosa Parks, U.ofArkansas, sit-ins etc had all occurred well before ’60).

    This plot device, while not directly tied to race, had by this time been wearing thin and remains a standard stock plot device in many morality tales. It was starting to get old by the early 60s in point of fact, where the presumed guilty suspect in a novel turns out to be innocent. (e.g. ’57’s 12 Angry Men). One prominent example (and it was quite the opposite in literature or film) was Agatha Christie’s Witness for the Prosecution where the guilty is sympathetic but in the end it is revealed that he was in fact guilty as charged. Its just so rare in fiction. It certainly isn’t anywhere near frequent.

    In short, Wolfe dropped the ball. Really daring would have been to make Fareek guilty as charged. But instead he chose a semi-Jimmy Carter type of tsk tsking on society at large: ‘THIS time, this NCAA player isn’t guilty, and he’s a bad dude, but he continues to go and will go to the NFL. Perhaps he’ll commit a more heinous crime, perhaps he’ll have the good fortune of others running interference for him as in this novel, but ultimately, SOCIETY is to blame for not attending to him early as a child and combatting his less than stellar character.’

    Sorry, but this “nuance” of Wolfe’s is nothing more than just a cop out. Really daring would’ve been to make the less than perfect character actually guilty as charged. We would then learn that yes, contrary to leftist propaganda going back for at least a half century, blacks are often in fact guilty as charged. Again, you seldom see this directly stated in film or in fiction at large.

    COPS would’ve been a more realistic show which does tend to show blacks as perps. In The Wire, the ULTIMATE villain if you recall, is the WHITE power structure that led to the problems to begin with. Whites don’t escape entirely the blame of the drug wars and the author is quite clear on that point. That’s virtually it as far as blacks being guilty as charged in novels or film.

    Regarding Detroit, I would suggest, for balance, that you read Paul Kersey and his dissection regarding Detroit’s violent crime rate. He breaks it down by race. Hint: Whites aren’t committing the bulk of the violent crimes in Detroit (or most other major US cities for that matter).

    The fact that you admittedly refuse to read and consider that this case re: Jerramy Stevens happens more than you are willing to admit, is just amazing. In this day and age to suggest that rape hardly occurs on a college campus and by NCAA athletes is most telling. It almost smacks of sexism/mysogynistic (she had it coming after all) attitudes that various women’s groups are trying so hard to confront, educate, and help to bring to light what does occur on college campuses.

    The ending is PC. Squaring with reality would’ve been to not only make the athlete a total jerk but also to make him guilty. But again, the fact that he does not implies most strongly that rape simply doesnt ever occur in any significant number on college campuses much less in real life.

    Most strongly disagree with that assessment that “open and shut” cases teach us nothing about real life. Of course they do. They teach us, if we’re willing to learn, that contrary to what our pre-conceived notions and biases were, that yes, oftentimes bad people commit bad acts and are caught.
    We must also acknowledge the real world interpretation of nuance. For the last half century, nuanced means having an actual bias, an agenda. As in To Kill a Mockingbird. That was a screed with a clearly written agenda in mind (serving as a morality tale to slut shame all whites for their alleged racial sins etc.). Having an agenda is considered nuanced; the writer or screenwriter can insert his interpretation of what he considers to be a more “accurate” way of how life is whereas in point of fact most times it is the leftist agenda at work.

    For the leftist, art does not exist for anything other than to impart the agenda and the narrative to the masses. Some “nuance” can exist but only if it serves the larger purpose of “correct” interpretation of events. (e.g. regarding race relations, whites are always bad and blacks, while at times flawed, are most often good; because of their pure motives they are never to be guilty but rather instead are victims).

    In that sense, most likely without realizing it, Wolfe’s character serves as a useful purpose. Fareed is a victim of the racist white power structure which supports the entire edifice of NCAA football.

    I do not stipulate anything. If you refuse to read the Jerramy Stevens investigation, then so be it. Let others read about a star stand out NCAA TE on a Division 1 University who was initially charged but then not with a most heinous crime. I am stating that contrary to Wolfe, in the real world the facts per the US government on violent crime isn’t nuanced. One key group appears to be committing the bulk of violent crimes which include rapes. This also includes rape on NCAA campuses and as my point was, among NCAA athletes at large.

    I do hope that others will read the Seattle Times investigation piece with an open mind and no pre-conceived bias one way or the other. I will maintain that this real world incident is more typical than that “nuanced” found in fiction.

  58. To think that Jameis Winston almost attended Stanford. He received a scholarship offer from Stanford – obviously high SAT/ACT scores – and visited the Stanford campus during the signing period for high school athletes, waiting an extra week or two before signing with Free Shoes University – aka the Criminoles.

    I doubt he would’ve gotten into this much trouble at Stanford – and who knows what other violations or criminal acts he might have committed at Florida St.

  59. No, most pop culture is not The Wire. OTOH, there is quite a lot of pop culture that shows black criminality. Rap music is a glorification of black underclass thug life, performed unironically by blacks themselves. It’s not like this meme is unknown to the world.

    The idea that Tom Wolfe, by not making Fareek 100% guilty, is complicit in some great left-wing cover-up of black criminality is preposterous.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @manton

    Yes, at times the truth can indeed be preposterous. But facts remain facts no matter what we think of them and contrary to our own personal preconceptions. Wolfe had a chance to make Fareek guilty, period, and that alone would've been truly unique almost unheard of at the time he wrote the novel.

    The outrage would've been pronounced from his peers on this point: A black criminal who's actually guilty of a violent crime? Really? Seriously? Can't be true. "everyone" knows that blacks don't commit most violent crimes over the past 60yrs, right? Instead Wolfe chose the easy way out and made the major character a tragic jerk who may be many things but at the end of the day isn't as bad as he seems.

    The point is that Wolfe didn't make Fareek guilty and he could have. That again would've been quite creative, forward looking, (extremely rare then as now) and reality-based.

    It wasn't a "cover-up" on Wolfe's part. It does however speak to a mindset among most all academics, intellectuals, etc of which group he is a part. Here he was on the team without realizing it.


    Here's the thing: Aside from the Wire, there are few if any white driven produced examples of black criminality in the pop culture. You are not being totally accurate by stating that pop culture by and large tends to show or prominently display black criminality. That is either a willful lie or ignorance at its worst. When blacks are shown on TV or in films they tend to be shown as the all round good guy, the hero, or the hard working observer of the rules (which of course tends to to run contrary to fantasy).

    Perhaps it is in the specifics. If you mean that black criminality is most pronounced in the white pop culture, then that is simply not true whatsoever. It isn't the majority by a long sight.

    If however you mean that within pop culture as in rap music and gangsta music specifically (which is in fact the most dominant form of rap music and has been for well over 15yrs or so) then yes, you are in fact correct. Also, the few black produced and predominantly black cast films actually go fifty-fifty. If the film is being shopped to potential white audiences then that individual film is whitened up. If the film is to remain in the ghetto, so to speak, then anything goes.

    By your designation, 12yrs a Slave would be a most prominent example of black criminality. But as we well know, just like in Wolfe's book, the slave turns out to be the victimized and is freed in the end. This is how modern Hollywood's mainstream films tend to be produced. Blacks are good angels or victims or wise all seeing sages, etc. Criminality is very rarely shown whatsoever in major Hollywood products.

    Another current book is Joyce Carrol Oates' Black Angels, which I liken to Wolfe in some ways. Here the heroine is "certain" that she is being pursued by a black criminal or so she thinks. At the end of the novel, it turns out that she was the real criminal for ever thinking that this black following her was a criminal. He was in fact, her protector, her guardian angel looking out for her and protecting her from harm. How quaint. And how representative of leftist academia, and Hollywood popular culture at large (e.g. well over 99% of Hollywood officially thinks this way and produces films with this worldview in mind.) Oates' novel is in fact more representative in fiction as well as in film and tends to represent the mainstream (white) Hollywood world view when it comes to race: blacks can do very little wrong. If they do, it's an illusion and YT is the real problem and villain, cause you know...Slavery. Jim Crow. Racism. Therefore, YT will always be the "real" villian if you look hard enough.

    I'm glad you mention rap music since I wasn't sure you were going to concede that it is after all an authentic representation and voice of the black community at large.

    Oftentimes, a people's music tends to mirror exactly the mores and attitudes of their own racial culture. And gangsta as well as mainstream black dominated rap that deals with black issues at large (e.g. filled with misogyny and graphic violence) is in fact quite the accurate display of today's modern black culture at large.

  60. I agree that real rape exists, of course. Your example was of a date rape drug but there are more likely occurrences – violent back alley rapes, and bad sex bedroom rapes, all sorts of messy stuff.

    My contention, which may or may not have been clear, is that the female’s consent (though hypothetically either or any partner’s consent) is an unworkable standard to determine whether it was rape.

    Why is this standard unworkable these days, more so than in the past (though even then it would have had problems). I would say that people’s behavior is not constrained by a moral framework that society agrees upon; and (perhaps more important), the application of the law is now in service to politics that are ethnically motivated. By ethnic motivations i refer to the theme hashed over at this site every day: put down the white man, use whatever means (oh, and at the same time, deny that’s what’s happening).

    So, basically you’re also using sports to once again blame whitey for something. Anything. It HAS to be YT’s fault. It certainly can’t be Letrelle’s or DeShanteezious or Robert DeMarcus Willams the third. Personal responsibility is simply too far over on the Bell Curve’s left side and that bar is just too far to reach for these….people? – Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    In the case of these college jockstraps, black thugs taking advantage of white girls … do i “blame whitey”? The question, of whose fault or why is this happening, doesn’t reduce to that at all. The flavor of my post you were responding to, was that it was not the fault of the jockaroos, that they were simply taking advantage of the opportunities, uh, shoved in their face. Do i blame them for doing what they do? … no, they are being true to their nature, such as it is.

    But on the Larger Question of whose fault is the situation that exists and expresses in these college campus confusions, i have no answer for that. Situations such as the condition of society, are not the fault of any one group. I wish that white people would stand up and set things right. I’d pay to see that.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Suburban_elk

    In the case of rape, what does the law say? If women are too scared to speak out for fear of their lives, then who's fault is it? Who is to blame for this fear?

    Nope, that's where the difference occurs.

    If you want to say that the jocks are too low on the bell curve and can't control themselves cause they lack the mental cognition, IQ, etc to keep it zipped up then that's a separate issue.

    If we go by the fact that they are athletes and men, both of which tend to make them the stronger party (especially in cases of DV, rape, assault, etc) again, what does the law state?

    I should clarify, since no one is going to actually take the time and read the Seattle Times investigation. Date Rape drug was thought to have been used, there was also in fact, phsyical bruises around the females...parts. Violence around her throat and she was initially found in the bushes.

    Again, for those who seemingly don't want to concede that NCAA athletes are at times guilty of heinous crimes, well...I'd ask what sections of society are these athletes drafted and recruited from?

    Another related issue and that is the NFL's domestic violence situation. Is anyone surprised that the vast majority so far if not in all cases have been non-white players? Again, look at where the majority of these players were drafted/recruited from.

  61. @Whiskey
    Jameis Winston was suspended for half a game IIRC for standing up on a table in the Student Union and screaming an internet meme obscenity. You can google for it, its not G-rated so I won't post it.

    That behavior, after all his difficulties, rape investigation, taking crab legs out of a store without paying for it (like "Gentle Giant" Mike Brown of Ferguson) seems to me to indicate a low not a high IQ. Probably around 68-72. By contrast, Ben Roethlisberger after several sexual assault allegations wised up and avoids bars and further trouble in favor of making lots of money. [Roethlisberger was still dropped by most of his sponsors and has not been picked up.]

    I think we are peak Black Athlete.

    College Football makes FAR too much money even for smaller schools to go away. BUT ... a number of schools are one massive lawsuit away from being nearly bankrupted or bankrupted.

    This is particularly true with Chinese students flooding in, many from the lower levels of China's aristocracy and with money and power. All it takes is a beating, rape, or whatever of one of China's lesser princelings or princesses and you can look at a massive lawsuit. Already USC was sued by the parents of the two grad students (without much money/connections/power in China) slain just off campus for deceiving them about safety. Or it could be an Asian, or Latino, or Gay/Transgender (World War T!) student suing.

    Having large, aggression filled, entitled Black guys without the forethought to think, "there goes my NFL career and endorsement contracts" when confronted by an easy target, is a recipe for massive lawsuits and is bound to happen. Particularly with an oversupply of lawyers looking to make a LOT of money. Suppose you're a law school grad, you can't find a job, you passed the bar but there's thousands like you just in your city, and you read about some "Gentle Giant" beating an "uppity" Asian or White or Latino ... or Black for that matter student? Whilst ambulance chasing the internet ... er researching for clients? Wouldn't that be an opportunity of a lifetime? To sue say Notre Dame, or Ohio State, or Florida State? Deep pockets, big payoff, big percentage for you. Beats paying your student loan and living on ramen.

    Meanwhile UCLA's meltdown against Oregon shows the downside of athletic but dumb Black football players. Inability to adjust to a spread offense. A more coordinated, smarter defense able to read on the fly and adjust at the line of scrimmage has the potential to beat even the most athletic guys on the offense. They also come with lower lawsuit risk and they cost less in scholarships.

    Already I'm seeing far more White guys in the NFL, even in traditionally Black spots such as WR, than I did a few years ago.

    As for the White Female / Black Male attraction, it is there, people notice it, it is neither the be all and end all nor is it not there. Gwyneth Paltrow's reaction to Obama "You're so handsome I can hardly speak," is well noted as are the explicit sexual fantasies of him in print in the New York Times by married White female writers. Black men make on average poor providers, their sons are perceived as sexy and dominant but their daughters as ugly and unfeminine. So there's that. Anecdotally I almost all the professional White women of my acquaintance under 45 have had a bad case of Jungle Fever at one time or another. Women like those temporary winners and can't abide a project either. As noted above, the same thing happened in Occupied Europe with German soldiers. Rather tellingly, an episode of "Foyle's War" centers around the "unsexy and bad" returned British soldier crippled in a POW camp at the very end of the War, who is suspected of murdering his wife's sexy German POW lover, and is "bad" because he reacts badly to his wife's screwing of the guy. [The German POW was in the story, actually murdered by the sympathetic German-Jewish emigre doctor after seeing newsreel footage of concentration camps and being brusquely pushed down by the German POW.]

    I have never ever seen psychological stuff create attraction to someone. You can't brainwash men into wanting old or fat women sexually, nor can you brainwash women into wanting beta males either. Sexual desire is beyond brainwashing, it is raw, primal, instinctual, and hard-wired. You can't make gay people straight or straight people gay. It is just there. Yes, Kanazawa's study showing Black women are the least attractive, of women of all races, to men of all races, has not been disproven. Nor has the other finding, that Black men were the most attractive of all races, to women of all races. Yeah, Black guys have an advantage over White guys in the raw sexual desire part, on average, no question. To be blunt and honest.

    But raw desire is only part of it. Danger, social opportunity and cost, availability, opportunity cost (pursuing one guy can close the door to others) all play a part in female sexual behavior. Weighting might change to circumstance but its complex always.

    Replies: @soren, @Sluggo, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Whiskey, you have not finished the story. Men and women are not the same in many aspects including sexual desire.

    Women are from Venus, and men are from Mars.

    Unlike men, there are plenty of women who go for beta males. On second glance it was revealed that the woman was attracted to aspects of his personality, his job, etc. So women tend to weigh a lot of other things in choosing a soul mate. Men just chose physicality.

    I still maintain that for many physically attractive women, Mark Zuckerberg would be their best catch. Still surprised more haven’t tried to catch him. He’s young, and wealthy beyond any NFL/NBA/rap star ever will be. And he made his money in social media, something where women totally dominate usage as opposed to men.

    Zuckerberg would be a great catch for a cheerleader, a Victoria’s Secret/Sports Illustrated model etc.

  62. I’ve always thought the whole “bodies” thing seemed oddly racist in and of itself. A body is a thing, not a person, and calling someone a “body” would seem to objectify them and even remove the concept of agency from them.

    Of course, it could just be yet another reaction against Christianity. Remember the old style way of referring to people as “souls”? (ie: 40 souls perished when the plane went down) This dates back to the Bible, where the words nefeshנֶּ֥פֶשׁ (see Ezekiel 18:4) and psuche ψυχῇ (ex: Acts 2:43) are used in this sense.

    Maybe, where Christianity wishes to emphasize the spirituality of man, and thus refers to him as “soul” leftism wishes to deny it, and thus refers to man as “body”? It gives me the creeps regardless…

  63. @manton
    No, most pop culture is not The Wire. OTOH, there is quite a lot of pop culture that shows black criminality. Rap music is a glorification of black underclass thug life, performed unironically by blacks themselves. It's not like this meme is unknown to the world.

    The idea that Tom Wolfe, by not making Fareek 100% guilty, is complicit in some great left-wing cover-up of black criminality is preposterous.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Yes, at times the truth can indeed be preposterous. But facts remain facts no matter what we think of them and contrary to our own personal preconceptions. Wolfe had a chance to make Fareek guilty, period, and that alone would’ve been truly unique almost unheard of at the time he wrote the novel.

    The outrage would’ve been pronounced from his peers on this point: A black criminal who’s actually guilty of a violent crime? Really? Seriously? Can’t be true. “everyone” knows that blacks don’t commit most violent crimes over the past 60yrs, right? Instead Wolfe chose the easy way out and made the major character a tragic jerk who may be many things but at the end of the day isn’t as bad as he seems.

    The point is that Wolfe didn’t make Fareek guilty and he could have. That again would’ve been quite creative, forward looking, (extremely rare then as now) and reality-based.

    It wasn’t a “cover-up” on Wolfe’s part. It does however speak to a mindset among most all academics, intellectuals, etc of which group he is a part. Here he was on the team without realizing it.

    Here’s the thing: Aside from the Wire, there are few if any white driven produced examples of black criminality in the pop culture. You are not being totally accurate by stating that pop culture by and large tends to show or prominently display black criminality. That is either a willful lie or ignorance at its worst. When blacks are shown on TV or in films they tend to be shown as the all round good guy, the hero, or the hard working observer of the rules (which of course tends to to run contrary to fantasy).

    Perhaps it is in the specifics. If you mean that black criminality is most pronounced in the white pop culture, then that is simply not true whatsoever. It isn’t the majority by a long sight.

    If however you mean that within pop culture as in rap music and gangsta music specifically (which is in fact the most dominant form of rap music and has been for well over 15yrs or so) then yes, you are in fact correct. Also, the few black produced and predominantly black cast films actually go fifty-fifty. If the film is being shopped to potential white audiences then that individual film is whitened up. If the film is to remain in the ghetto, so to speak, then anything goes.

    By your designation, 12yrs a Slave would be a most prominent example of black criminality. But as we well know, just like in Wolfe’s book, the slave turns out to be the victimized and is freed in the end. This is how modern Hollywood’s mainstream films tend to be produced. Blacks are good angels or victims or wise all seeing sages, etc. Criminality is very rarely shown whatsoever in major Hollywood products.

    Another current book is Joyce Carrol Oates’ Black Angels, which I liken to Wolfe in some ways. Here the heroine is “certain” that she is being pursued by a black criminal or so she thinks. At the end of the novel, it turns out that she was the real criminal for ever thinking that this black following her was a criminal. He was in fact, her protector, her guardian angel looking out for her and protecting her from harm. How quaint. And how representative of leftist academia, and Hollywood popular culture at large (e.g. well over 99% of Hollywood officially thinks this way and produces films with this worldview in mind.) Oates’ novel is in fact more representative in fiction as well as in film and tends to represent the mainstream (white) Hollywood world view when it comes to race: blacks can do very little wrong. If they do, it’s an illusion and YT is the real problem and villain, cause you know…Slavery. Jim Crow. Racism. Therefore, YT will always be the “real” villian if you look hard enough.

    I’m glad you mention rap music since I wasn’t sure you were going to concede that it is after all an authentic representation and voice of the black community at large.

    Oftentimes, a people’s music tends to mirror exactly the mores and attitudes of their own racial culture. And gangsta as well as mainstream black dominated rap that deals with black issues at large (e.g. filled with misogyny and graphic violence) is in fact quite the accurate display of today’s modern black culture at large.

  64. @Suburban_elk
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    I agree that real rape exists, of course. Your example was of a date rape drug but there are more likely occurrences - violent back alley rapes, and bad sex bedroom rapes, all sorts of messy stuff.

    My contention, which may or may not have been clear, is that the female's consent (though hypothetically either or any partner's consent) is an unworkable standard to determine whether it was rape.

    Why is this standard unworkable these days, more so than in the past (though even then it would have had problems). I would say that people's behavior is not constrained by a moral framework that society agrees upon; and (perhaps more important), the application of the law is now in service to politics that are ethnically motivated. By ethnic motivations i refer to the theme hashed over at this site every day: put down the white man, use whatever means (oh, and at the same time, deny that's what's happening).

    So, basically you’re also using sports to once again blame whitey for something. Anything. It HAS to be YT’s fault. It certainly can’t be Letrelle’s or DeShanteezious or Robert DeMarcus Willams the third. Personal responsibility is simply too far over on the Bell Curve’s left side and that bar is just too far to reach for these….people? - Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    In the case of these college jockstraps, black thugs taking advantage of white girls … do i "blame whitey"? The question, of whose fault or why is this happening, doesn't reduce to that at all. The flavor of my post you were responding to, was that it was not the fault of the jockaroos, that they were simply taking advantage of the opportunities, uh, shoved in their face. Do i blame them for doing what they do? … no, they are being true to their nature, such as it is.

    But on the Larger Question of whose fault is the situation that exists and expresses in these college campus confusions, i have no answer for that. Situations such as the condition of society, are not the fault of any one group. I wish that white people would stand up and set things right. I'd pay to see that.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    In the case of rape, what does the law say? If women are too scared to speak out for fear of their lives, then who’s fault is it? Who is to blame for this fear?

    Nope, that’s where the difference occurs.

    If you want to say that the jocks are too low on the bell curve and can’t control themselves cause they lack the mental cognition, IQ, etc to keep it zipped up then that’s a separate issue.

    If we go by the fact that they are athletes and men, both of which tend to make them the stronger party (especially in cases of DV, rape, assault, etc) again, what does the law state?

    I should clarify, since no one is going to actually take the time and read the Seattle Times investigation. Date Rape drug was thought to have been used, there was also in fact, phsyical bruises around the females…parts. Violence around her throat and she was initially found in the bushes.

    Again, for those who seemingly don’t want to concede that NCAA athletes are at times guilty of heinous crimes, well…I’d ask what sections of society are these athletes drafted and recruited from?

    Another related issue and that is the NFL’s domestic violence situation. Is anyone surprised that the vast majority so far if not in all cases have been non-white players? Again, look at where the majority of these players were drafted/recruited from.

  65. Steve, I don’t know if there’s a connection to today’s usage or not, but the phrase “black bodies” reminds me of the lyrics to “Strange Fruit,” the 1930s Billie Holiday song about lynching. Maybe there is a connection …

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @manton

    As I mentioned, about 4,5K lynchings total occured over a 100yr period (1866-1968) with 3k being black. So while it did occur it didn't happen every single day. Nice of you to throw in a PC elitist touch of a lynching song. It reminds one of Joyce Carol Oates novels deals with a 1905 lynching in NJ over some trivial matter. Fact is, no lynchings occurred in NJ neither over the time frame nor during the specific year of which she writes about. As is often the case with leftism, the facts be damned and otherwise they tend to be exaggerated. "Everyone" knows how bad things were during this time, therefore...make up whatever you want to suit your ideological agenda.

    Also, what makes you or anyone else automatically assume that those lynched were innocent angels? Again, about 1.5k of those lynched were white. How come no folk songs penned for those white victims to lynchings?
    In D.W. Griffith's Birth of a Nation one of the focal points was a lynching of a vicious rapist.

  66. @Curle
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    "Stevens later married US National Team GK Hope Solo, who is awaiting trial for domestic violence in November. Funny how like attracts its own." -------------------------------------

    All this hand wringing over a female 'assaulting' a family member, especially when that family member is a male, highlights the manner in which we are all being acclimated to viewing every aspect of human intercourse (old sense not sexual sense) as subject to government intervention. When I was younger the rare instance of females fighting (I attended mostly white schools) was a cause for anticipated hilarity. A little like puppies wrestling. An event of no consequence because of the low likelihood for actual harm. Now, the hand wringers feel the need to elevate all conflicts into an excuse for social intervention and we all feel the need to nod our heads in agreement or face stigmatization.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    In this case, especially, you don’t know of which you speak.

    FACT: She is in the top 1% of pro athletes for women, which means she is still stronger than about 95% of all adult males. She could easily outfight at least half of the US Mens National Team.

    FACT: Domestic abusers can be women as well. Hard to believe but it is true.

    FACT: Had she not been severely intoxicated, the two relatives would’ve been put in the hospital. On the side, as I assume you don’t think the Ray Rice video is funny or a laughing matter why is the idea of a grown mature woman beating up her older sister and minor nephew a cause for a huge guffaw and laughing ol’ time?

    The older generations clearly have misplaced ideas regarding some things and domestic abuse would appear to be one of them.

  67. @manton
    Steve, I don't know if there's a connection to today's usage or not, but the phrase "black bodies" reminds me of the lyrics to "Strange Fruit," the 1930s Billie Holiday song about lynching. Maybe there is a connection ...

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    As I mentioned, about 4,5K lynchings total occured over a 100yr period (1866-1968) with 3k being black. So while it did occur it didn’t happen every single day. Nice of you to throw in a PC elitist touch of a lynching song. It reminds one of Joyce Carol Oates novels deals with a 1905 lynching in NJ over some trivial matter. Fact is, no lynchings occurred in NJ neither over the time frame nor during the specific year of which she writes about. As is often the case with leftism, the facts be damned and otherwise they tend to be exaggerated. “Everyone” knows how bad things were during this time, therefore…make up whatever you want to suit your ideological agenda.

    Also, what makes you or anyone else automatically assume that those lynched were innocent angels? Again, about 1.5k of those lynched were white. How come no folk songs penned for those white victims to lynchings?
    In D.W. Griffith’s Birth of a Nation one of the focal points was a lynching of a vicious rapist.

  68. A NYT write took Physics and Black Studies the same semester, and years later the only thing he remembered about the whole semester was something about black bodies. He logically assumed it was a term of art in Black Studies and ran with it.

    • Replies: @CJ
    @Jean Cocteausten

    Your theory is as good as any. I think I first read the term "black-body radiation" about 30 years ago. Probably some campus leftist liked the sound of it, used it in one of his BS PoMo essays and it stuck. Now it stays around because, as another poster noted, it puts the emphasis on the physical appearance rather than the behavior.

  69. I’ve seen the libtard term “bodies” applied to Latinos, women, and, of all things, Mormons. Someone posted a link on this blog a few months ago to a paper by a Mormon academic about the “otherization” of ” Mormon bodies.” It’s just a retarded far-left academic term that means something only to the ivory tower bubble, who don’t realize how bizarre it sounds to normal people.

    One of my pet hates in lefty academic jargon is replacing the word “equality” with “equity.” I suspect that “equity” means equality of outcome to them, and that’s why they changed the word.

  70. @Jean Cocteausten
    A NYT write took Physics and Black Studies the same semester, and years later the only thing he remembered about the whole semester was something about black bodies. He logically assumed it was a term of art in Black Studies and ran with it.

    Replies: @CJ

    Your theory is as good as any. I think I first read the term “black-body radiation” about 30 years ago. Probably some campus leftist liked the sound of it, used it in one of his BS PoMo essays and it stuck. Now it stays around because, as another poster noted, it puts the emphasis on the physical appearance rather than the behavior.

  71. Unlike today’s parents who would opt for political correctness and never bother to say anything…

    Nonsense. I’m the parent of three myself. I’ve had (and every parent I’ve known has had) many serious talks with their children regarding self respect, being careful, the vastly diverse population they will encounter in college, etc. Any parental shoulder shrugging has more to do with the fact that, at college-age, they are young adults. Eventually parental attitude becomes, “We’ve done the best we could. They have to make their own mistakes.” You can’t follow them around forever, but the idea that “today’s parents” say nothing and let the chips fall where they may with their unsuspecting children is simply not true.

  72. @Bugg
    At a loss why baseball, hockey, golf and tennis players can and do turn pro without ever going to college. Colleges are or should be educational institutions rather than minor leagues. Have a friend who's nephew was drafted by an NHL team. This boy as a teen left his home to play junior hockey in another state and decided to forego 2 scholarship offers at big time hockey schools to stay with a major junior team. Worked in a fast food restaurant as a teen with a guy who was drafted by an MLB team and played minor league ball. Same thing; if it doesn't work out go get another career. Which is what happened to the later.And worked with a guy who starred at a Big East basketball school who recognized while he was good he would never make the NBA and got his degree and went to law school instead . Which is how things should ideally work .

    The NBA and the NFL are beginning to consider using minor developmental leagues for players who have no academic background but want to turn pro. But with March Madness as huge as it is and a football playoff starting this season, more likely colleges with major sports programs will continue to bring players onto their campuses that have no business nor intention of getting an education.As a parent saving for a son's education, I have no sympathy for "student athletes" who are not students. But doubt things will change much.

    Replies: @RT Rider, @Oldeguy, @Lurker

    To British eyes the whole academic sport complex is bizarre. Why on earth should pro players be at university at all?

    Does anything comparable happen in any other country, in any other sports?

    • Replies: @keypusher
    @Lurker

    They row at British universities, don't they?

    Amateur basketball and football predated the professional varieties. Basketball was invented as a winter recreation for college students in the 1890s; the NBA wasn't set up until 1946. College football was a huge sport by the late 1800s; the NFL wasn't organized until 1920, and was a distinctly minor league until the 1950s.

  73. “It’s almost as if Wolfe was intentionally pointing out how the modern Southern White Male Power structure dotes on black athletes, even at the expense of their own daughters’ safety. ”

    There was a really funny incident a few years ago that exemplified this. I doubt I can find a link, but a white student at Alabama (I think) was alleging that she’d been raped by a Bama football player ( a big D lineman, I think), and her own father (a big Bama fan) came out and said something to the effect of “Don’t pay any attention to her. She’s emotionally unstable and a huge attention whore.”

  74. @Sluggo
    @Whiskey


    You can’t brainwash men into wanting old or fat women sexually, nor can you brainwash women into wanting beta males either. Sexual desire is beyond brainwashing, it is raw, primal, instinctual, and hard-wired. You can’t make gay people straight or straight people gay. It is just there.
     
    Marketing says otherwise. Sarah Jessica Parker is on the cover of women's magazines and is viewed as a sex symbol. She may require a lot of photoshopping, but there she is. Beyonce is another one who was upset when photos of her at the Super Bowl showed her as she actually is rather than her carefully crafted image. I imagine that many guys were disappointed. If marketing and advertising didn't work, nobody would pay for it.

    As for gay people, many are sexually abused at a young age and have a skewed view of sexuality. If that is the case, they certainly weren't "born that way".

    Replies: @Greg

  75. A similar scenario played out at my alma mater recently, but with a different outcome.

    The most powerful sports team at my old school is the hockey team, which has a long and storied existence. They’ve long had their camp followers, known around the campus as Puck Bunnies, who enthusiastically kept All America players focused by regularly helping them release precious bodily fluids. Campus power is what it is, and the white boys on the hockey team enjoyed their sexual perquisites with the same gusto as the bros with their hos at any NCAA football powerhouse. How much so? There were reports of the players, after winning the NCAA Championship in 2009, taking over the campus arena late night to drink from kegs in the locker room shower, take to the ice naked to shoot pucks, and have sex with the Puck Bunnies on the bench and in the penalty box.

    Fast forward two years, when 2 players were accused of groping coeds without consent after an especially rowdy hockey party. One pleaded out to simple assault when the prosecutor agreed that sexual assault with attempt to rape wouldn’t stick (and after the verdict, took his game to a rival school a couple miles away!). The other was cleared of all charges; despite the dismissal, the university wouldn’t allow him to re-enroll, so he turned pro, as he was drafted by the Red Wings in 2008.

    The difference is how it was handled. As soon as the accusations were made, both players were suspended from the team and the university. Before the trails even took place, the university formed a task force to investigate the “sexual entitlement” of the hockey players. The coach, who was also athletic director, was hounded into retirement, notwithstanding his 40 years at the school, 897 wins, 3 NCAA Championships and 21 Beanpot titles (if you know anything about college hockey in Boston, you’d know that some believe the Beanpot is more important than the Hockey East title!). The program, one of the most storied and successful in college hockey, suffered a setback that will take years to recover from.

    The difficulties of running a competitive sports program at a “real” school, as opposed to a glorified high school like Florida State, can’t be minimized. In today’s feminized college atmosphere, especially at elite private schools, the sexual politics have come 180 degrees from my time on campus. Of course, in my day, 18-year old girls who were non-partying high school grinds would come to fraternity parties with their new dorm friends, drink a few Grape & Grains, and end up on their backs in some frat boy’s bed, so maybe things needed some changing.

    BTW, the two players are enjoying pro careers (as will Winston).

  76. @Xenophon Hendrix
    There is a seeming paradox I've been wondering about. According to the West Hunter site, more than half of all genes are expressed in the brain, and high intelligence is associated with low genetic load. One would think that outstanding athleticism is also associated with low genetic load.

    If that is the case, why do we see so many stupid top athletes? Whereas both should be associated with selecting for lots of good genes, being a great athlete isn't the same as being a genius, so I could understand professional athletes being bright normal. What I can't understand is single-digit Wonderlic scores. Somewhere my mental model is off. Can you improve it?

    Replies: @Melendwyr

    Because genetic load may help explain the differences within a related group, but is only responsible for certain kinds of differences. Genetic load impairs the manifestation of the design, but it doesn’t speak to the properties of the design itself. A perfectly-executed chimpanzee design isn’t going to have the same strengths and weaknesses as a mediocre human design – and for most things that we care about, the chimp is going to be weaker.

    A human with an inefficient brain is probably going to have little ability to defer gratification. But some humans lack the programming for the traits that lead to that ability, and no matter how ideal their biochemistry, they’re not going to restrain themselves.

  77. @Lurker
    @Bugg

    To British eyes the whole academic sport complex is bizarre. Why on earth should pro players be at university at all?

    Does anything comparable happen in any other country, in any other sports?

    Replies: @keypusher

    They row at British universities, don’t they?

    Amateur basketball and football predated the professional varieties. Basketball was invented as a winter recreation for college students in the 1890s; the NBA wasn’t set up until 1946. College football was a huge sport by the late 1800s; the NFL wasn’t organized until 1920, and was a distinctly minor league until the 1950s.

  78. Time for ‘gender-neutral’ prisons? If it’s good enough for dorms and military, why not for prisons?
    Unless we have ‘gender-neutral prisons’, our society will be insensitive to the needs of tranny prisoners.

  79. @Lot
    @Hapalong Cassidy


    Straight white girls don’t necessarily have the same tastes as gay white men, however.
     
    On OKCupid, gay white men and straight white women both strongly prefer white men to black men:

    http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-race-affects-whether-people-write-you-back/

    For both groups, black men are dead last in the likelihood of getting a reply.

    43% of white gays "strongly" prefer to date someone of their own race, by far the highest of any gay group. Only 6% of black gay men say the same.

    By comparison, 54% of white women and 40% of white men say the same thing. So gay whites have a slightly stronger preference for white men than straight white men have for white women.

    Replies: @AnAnon

    “By comparison, 54% of white women and 40% of white men say the same thing.” – or rather, will admit the same thing.

  80. The song “Strange Fruit” uses the phrase “black bodies swaying in the breeze” or some such (I can’t recall it exactly). It refers of course to lynchings. It was a hugely popular song with progs and liberals at the time and remains so (to the extent that anyone remembers American popular song any more).

    My point in brining it up was to suggest that today’s prog-lib use of the phrase actually originates in that song, where it is used in exactly the same context–as far as I know for the first time. In other words, modern liberals are using a phrase that once described a real injustice to equate that with today’s farcical non-injustices. The same way Jesse Jackson cries “Selma!” when one of his shakedowns fails.

    How you twisted that into some left-wing PC assertion on my part, I could not say. But you seem to see an army of enemies to your left, including Tom Wolfe.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @manton

    Uh, people under the age of about 45 don't listen to Billie Hollliday any more. ("oh yeah, she's that black singer who was victim of YT's racism. The film w/Diana Ross, etc.) People under 30 hardly have any idea who she was. But that's how it is with Jazz and music that was popular 80 some yrs ago. Newsflash: Al Jolson isn't popular any more either. Let's just be honest. Few people, except for blacks with an agenda (e.g. Spike Lee, Jackson, Sharpton, Obama, Ta-Nehesi Coates etc) really listen to lynching songs in the record numbers that they may have done 85yrs ago.

    NO, I never said that Wolfe is an enemy whatsoever. I have stated the fact that he had a momentous occasion to present a major black character as an actual criminal as charged and not a victim of the YT power structure known as NCAA/ACC/SEC football. Instead he dropped the ball, took the easy way out, and made Fareek the victim. Like it or not, the facts are what they are. Was he guilty as accused? No. Was he ultimately cleared? Yes, it wasn't brought to trial.

    People like yourself really should have the courtesy to consider reading as a nice contrast an actual real world case, (e.g. Seattle Times Jerramy Stevens). And it is more recent, it occured ca.2000. Here a star standout top 10 NCAA recruit, played in Rose Bowl and went onto play in the NFL, was accused and charged (but never tried) of a most heinous act. I daresay that anyone who actually reads the particulars will come away having been most enlightened on whether or not such things actually do occur in NCAA FB. Again, some people may still have doubts, may not consider it to be very relevant to those NCAA players being accused today of crimes, but it does help to serve as an overall balance to those who aren't sure if in fact such things do occur at the NCAA level.

    Reading Wolfe's book, unfortunately, the message and answer are both quite clear: "NAH. Not really. Yeah, there probably aren't very nice people out there but seldom is anyone what they appear to be. Who among us is perfect? And after all, just like I said, she wanted it so its all good in the end."

    Fareek's real world counterpart is of course, Jerramy Stevens and perhaps lik Fareek he may have thought the same thing, "she wanted it, it's all good in the end."

  81. “Mark Zuckerberg would be their best catch. Still surprised more haven’t tried to catch him. He’s young, and wealthy beyond any NFL/NBA/rap star ever will be. ”

    Mark Zuckerberg is so out of this world wealthy that he makes Black rappers like Kanye West and Black basketball players Kevin Durant look middle class in comparison.

    • Replies: @WhatEvvs
    @Jefferson

    No he makes them look like the thugz they are. They just have a little spending money. Now.

    , @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Jefferson

    LeBron, JayZ, and Kayne combined still wouldn't match Zuckerberg's total wealth. Barring an early decline, Zuck will be the first person to become a half trillionaire by the time he retires from the tech field. Zuckerberg currently could purchase every NBA and nearly ever NFL team and still be a billionaire. Certainly he will be able to purchase them sometime during the next decade.

    It's the greatest come on line of the 21st century. And ordinary women, those at the high end (perfect 10s) will know exactly who he is. It would go something like this:

    Walks into room of attractive girls and smiles.

    "Hi girls. Facebook. I did that. Me."

    He'd have them eating out of his hand.

    Even the dimmest bulbette uses facebook. They all know about Facebook. Most likely, they've also heard of him because of the Social Network film. Any way you look at it, its a double coolness factor right there.

  82. “FACT: She is in the top 1% of pro athletes for women, which means she is still stronger than about 95% of all adult males. She could easily outfight at least half of the US Mens National Team.”

    Say what?

    Pure comedy.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Lackawanna

    Yeah, and its a fact.

    The top 5% of US men cannot bench press over 375lbs. Her top weight is around 380lbs. While women athletes aren't in the same league as elite men athletes, depending on the sport they are still well able to kick butt of 95% of men in US.

    Ronda Roussey, for example is much stronger than Solo and she definitely can bench over 400lbs. Roussey could easy kick 97% of US men's butts cause thats what she does for a living.

    Replies: @anonymous, @Renault

  83. WhatEvvs [AKA "Cookies"] says:
    @manton
    First of all, let’s remember that A Man in Full is a work of fiction. So the author’s intent rules. This is not a real case about which we can debate various pieces of evidence. Wolfe wrote what he wrote. The first question is to interpret it correctly. After we have done that we can gauge whether we think Wolfe got contemporary reality correct. Extrapolating from an interpretation of the book to assume that the interpreter must think X or Y about this or that real life case is silly. Even if Wolfe wrote Fareek to be 100% innocent, that doesn’t meant that I or any other reader must believe this or that real criminal was also 100% innocent. How such leaps of logic even get made is not something I can understand without recourse to, as Wolfe might put it, “Dr. Freud’s emergency night line.”

    As to what Wolfe, as author, intends: He paints Fareek in an extremely negative light. We see Fareek, IIRC, in only two scenes. First, he appears in Ch. 1 when Roger White visits him at Buck McNutter’s. Second, he is in Ch. 24, when Charlie meets him at the same house. In both instances, he is an entitled, arrogant ass. No one likes him—not his coach, not even his black lawyer who is there to save his ass. Fareek treats everyone trying to help him with total disdain and contempt. Wolfe stacks the deck so much against Fareek—who at one point even invites himself to Charlie’s plantation, and insults Charlie in the process—that the reader is almost double-dared not to think of Fareek as the villain. And, if you’ve ever been around a Division 1A star at this level, they really can be quite a lot like that. (Though note also the much more sympathetic portrayal of big time college athletes, black and white, in I Am Charlotte Simmons.)

    Also, as said, Wolfe drops hints throughout the book that Elizabeth is not a total innocent. I disagree with Steve that this was simply Wolfe changing his mind at the last minute. It is well known, because Wolfe has talked about it at length, that he had a heart attack when he was nearly done with AMiF. But I don’t think this explains what I am pointing out. Wolfe did not change his mind, he planned this part from the beginning. The clues are there in early chapters written years before the heart attack. Also, I asked him point blank and he said he planned that all along.

    I completely disagree that this makes the book on par with To Kill a Mockingbird (which, whatever its flaws, is not a bad book) and it certainly does not make it sentimental. Nor is it some left-wing civil rights tract. Wolfe clearly shows the whole establishment, black and white, rallying around Fareek before they have any of the facts, and he shows that they are not really interested in those facts. They all know what a rotten person Fareek is and they close ranks to try to cover that up and present him as a “good kid” who made it out of the projects, but everyone he comes in contact with finds him to be an entitled ass. If this was a simple morality play, Wolfe would have made Fareek a sympathetic angel.

    The question of the rape is not resolved in the book. And, if this were a real case, it’s hard to see how it could be. Elizabeth, again, didn’t report the "rape" to the police, campus security, her parents, or anyone. There are no witnesses to the alleged crime. There are, however, witnesses who see Fareek and Elizabeth meet in a restaurant and flirt, and then see her willingly accept an invitation back to his apartment, and then willingly go into his bedroom. There is, presumably, no physical evidence. All there is, then, is he-said, she-said about what went on in that room.

    Whatever happened—and it’s quite possible and even likely that Fareek was super aggressive with Elizabeth and she really underestimated what she was getting into—she was still an idiot for putting herself in that situation. Perhaps, as Steve suggests elsewhere, her parents and other authority figures were too PC to teach her elementary common sense, a la Hannah Graham. Quite plausible. But Elizabeth still did put herself in that situation, and even eagerly sought Fareek’s company, the book shows. And whatever happened, it’s almost certainly not true that she was simply pinioned and forcibly raped in the way that (say) Dr. Melfi was on The Sopranos.

    I think this is another instance of Wolfe being clearly ahead of his time. He’s showing the dark or low side of female sexuality. Among other things, to lust after big superstars (“hypergamy”) and to cry “rape” as a cover for mere “regret” (Oh, damn, I don’t want to get a reputation as a slut!).

    Some commenters here seem to be upset at the possibility that book does not make the black kid an unadulterated villain, as if Wolfe has somehow let down the HDB team, or has chickened out and gone PC, if Fareek is not unquestionably guilty. But Wolfe is more nuanced than that. For one thing, even if Fareek is NOT 100% guilty, the novel still does illustrate exactly the phenomenon that Steve’s original post raises. Second, by showing the feral, lust-fueled risk-taking stupidity of a rich white co-ed, Wolfe is saying something quite un-PC indeed.

    Funny, so Wolfe lets down the HBD crowd by not making Fareek a total thug-rapist, but on the other hand, his novel supports the equally un-PC “red pill” crowd by showing the bogus nature of a lot of campus “rape” scandals, all of which needless to say go against males. If the book were to be updated for our time (it is 16 years old), Elizabeth could anonymously accuse Fareek to a campus rape tribunal, at which he would not be able to confront his accuser, or even know who she is, or call his own witnesses, or introduce exculpatory evidence, or be represented by counsel, and the standard for conviction is the lowest allowable by law. And that’s not even the whole list of what makes these kangaroo courts so awful.

    At one point McNutter (Fareek’s couch) explains to Charlie how girls these days just shamelessly, openly throw themselves at star athletes. Wolfe shows this in much greater detail in I Am Charlotte Simmons.

    BTW, to someone who brought up Charlotte, while she is far more admirable and innocent than Elizabeth, she also plays an important role in her own downfall. It’s crystal clear the first time she meets Hoyt that he doesn’t know her name or care, and that he takes her upstairs expecting to have sex with her on the spot. She leaves outraged, but also insanely attracted and keeps going back there to see him and to make out with him. She is naïve, yes, but hardly a complete innocent.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @WhatEvvs

    “Extrapolating from an interpretation of the book to assume that the interpreter must think X or Y about this or that real life case is silly.”

    That happens a lot on the ‘net, in comments and also the posts. Here & elsewhere.

    Whenever I read anything that begins promisingly, and the author/commenter gives an example from a movie, or a book, I immediately turn off. Because an example from a movie or a book isn’t evidence.

    Exception: something about early 19th century England morals, that uses Austen as an example, or Russian 19th century peasant life that references Chekhov, well, that’s different. But it still wouldn’t be proof.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @WhatEvvs

    Exactly, and that would also include Wolfe as well, if we're being consistent. His book isn't necessarily completely based in reality (e.g. crime stats of how reality actually occurs).

    If you quote from real life examples of facts that occured in the newspapers, then that would be definitely proof as it actually occured in real life. If you quote a number of them it can help to establish a definite reoccuring real world pattern.

    I'm not using the book and saying its how real life occurs. I've said before, that particular book doesn't appear to be based in the real world as it just isn't so.

  84. @Jefferson
    "Mark Zuckerberg would be their best catch. Still surprised more haven’t tried to catch him. He’s young, and wealthy beyond any NFL/NBA/rap star ever will be. "

    Mark Zuckerberg is so out of this world wealthy that he makes Black rappers like Kanye West and Black basketball players Kevin Durant look middle class in comparison.

    Replies: @WhatEvvs, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    No he makes them look like the thugz they are. They just have a little spending money. Now.

  85. @manton
    The song "Strange Fruit" uses the phrase "black bodies swaying in the breeze" or some such (I can't recall it exactly). It refers of course to lynchings. It was a hugely popular song with progs and liberals at the time and remains so (to the extent that anyone remembers American popular song any more).

    My point in brining it up was to suggest that today's prog-lib use of the phrase actually originates in that song, where it is used in exactly the same context--as far as I know for the first time. In other words, modern liberals are using a phrase that once described a real injustice to equate that with today's farcical non-injustices. The same way Jesse Jackson cries "Selma!" when one of his shakedowns fails.

    How you twisted that into some left-wing PC assertion on my part, I could not say. But you seem to see an army of enemies to your left, including Tom Wolfe.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Uh, people under the age of about 45 don’t listen to Billie Hollliday any more. (“oh yeah, she’s that black singer who was victim of YT’s racism. The film w/Diana Ross, etc.) People under 30 hardly have any idea who she was. But that’s how it is with Jazz and music that was popular 80 some yrs ago. Newsflash: Al Jolson isn’t popular any more either. Let’s just be honest. Few people, except for blacks with an agenda (e.g. Spike Lee, Jackson, Sharpton, Obama, Ta-Nehesi Coates etc) really listen to lynching songs in the record numbers that they may have done 85yrs ago.

    NO, I never said that Wolfe is an enemy whatsoever. I have stated the fact that he had a momentous occasion to present a major black character as an actual criminal as charged and not a victim of the YT power structure known as NCAA/ACC/SEC football. Instead he dropped the ball, took the easy way out, and made Fareek the victim. Like it or not, the facts are what they are. Was he guilty as accused? No. Was he ultimately cleared? Yes, it wasn’t brought to trial.

    People like yourself really should have the courtesy to consider reading as a nice contrast an actual real world case, (e.g. Seattle Times Jerramy Stevens). And it is more recent, it occured ca.2000. Here a star standout top 10 NCAA recruit, played in Rose Bowl and went onto play in the NFL, was accused and charged (but never tried) of a most heinous act. I daresay that anyone who actually reads the particulars will come away having been most enlightened on whether or not such things actually do occur in NCAA FB. Again, some people may still have doubts, may not consider it to be very relevant to those NCAA players being accused today of crimes, but it does help to serve as an overall balance to those who aren’t sure if in fact such things do occur at the NCAA level.

    Reading Wolfe’s book, unfortunately, the message and answer are both quite clear: “NAH. Not really. Yeah, there probably aren’t very nice people out there but seldom is anyone what they appear to be. Who among us is perfect? And after all, just like I said, she wanted it so its all good in the end.”

    Fareek’s real world counterpart is of course, Jerramy Stevens and perhaps lik Fareek he may have thought the same thing, “she wanted it, it’s all good in the end.”

  86. @Jefferson
    "Mark Zuckerberg would be their best catch. Still surprised more haven’t tried to catch him. He’s young, and wealthy beyond any NFL/NBA/rap star ever will be. "

    Mark Zuckerberg is so out of this world wealthy that he makes Black rappers like Kanye West and Black basketball players Kevin Durant look middle class in comparison.

    Replies: @WhatEvvs, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    LeBron, JayZ, and Kayne combined still wouldn’t match Zuckerberg’s total wealth. Barring an early decline, Zuck will be the first person to become a half trillionaire by the time he retires from the tech field. Zuckerberg currently could purchase every NBA and nearly ever NFL team and still be a billionaire. Certainly he will be able to purchase them sometime during the next decade.

    It’s the greatest come on line of the 21st century. And ordinary women, those at the high end (perfect 10s) will know exactly who he is. It would go something like this:

    Walks into room of attractive girls and smiles.

    “Hi girls. Facebook. I did that. Me.”

    He’d have them eating out of his hand.

    Even the dimmest bulbette uses facebook. They all know about Facebook. Most likely, they’ve also heard of him because of the Social Network film. Any way you look at it, its a double coolness factor right there.

  87. @WhatEvvs
    @manton

    "Extrapolating from an interpretation of the book to assume that the interpreter must think X or Y about this or that real life case is silly."

    That happens a lot on the 'net, in comments and also the posts. Here & elsewhere.

    Whenever I read anything that begins promisingly, and the author/commenter gives an example from a movie, or a book, I immediately turn off. Because an example from a movie or a book isn't evidence.

    Exception: something about early 19th century England morals, that uses Austen as an example, or Russian 19th century peasant life that references Chekhov, well, that's different. But it still wouldn't be proof.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Exactly, and that would also include Wolfe as well, if we’re being consistent. His book isn’t necessarily completely based in reality (e.g. crime stats of how reality actually occurs).

    If you quote from real life examples of facts that occured in the newspapers, then that would be definitely proof as it actually occured in real life. If you quote a number of them it can help to establish a definite reoccuring real world pattern.

    I’m not using the book and saying its how real life occurs. I’ve said before, that particular book doesn’t appear to be based in the real world as it just isn’t so.

  88. @Lackawanna
    "FACT: She is in the top 1% of pro athletes for women, which means she is still stronger than about 95% of all adult males. She could easily outfight at least half of the US Mens National Team."

    Say what?

    Pure comedy.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Yeah, and its a fact.

    The top 5% of US men cannot bench press over 375lbs. Her top weight is around 380lbs. While women athletes aren’t in the same league as elite men athletes, depending on the sport they are still well able to kick butt of 95% of men in US.

    Ronda Roussey, for example is much stronger than Solo and she definitely can bench over 400lbs. Roussey could easy kick 97% of US men’s butts cause thats what she does for a living.

    • Replies: @anonymous
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    you're nuts.

    ronda rousey can bench 100 lbs for 15 reps.

    http://www.musclemag.com/the-ufc-all-strength-team/8/

    i'd be interested in seeing you're sources.

    the only reason ronda could perhaps beat the average male is due to her judo throws and submission abilities coupled with male hesitance to beat up women.

    , @Renault
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi


    Ronda Roussey, for example is much stronger than Solo and she definitely can bench over 400lbs. Roussey could easy kick 97% of US men’s butts cause thats what she does for a living.

     

    This is a typo or something, right? You can't possibly mean what you say here.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

  89. @curle

    “All this hand wringing over a female ‘assaulting’ a family member, especially when that family member is a male”

    Actually, she assaulted her sister and her teenaged nephew. Granted, the nephew was 17, but I’m not sure he’s in a position psychologically or physically to fight back against his aunt (an authority figure), who happens to be a world class athlete.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Crank

    Agreed. Also, keep in mind she also failed a PED test during '12 Olympics. Her weight training regimen isn't some sissy hissy bikini cheerleader USC trojans stuff. The nephew is a minor. In the eyes of the law, that is serious offense. She should be glad she wasn't charged with a felony.

    One sportscaster who interviewed her said she has arms nearly as big as Dwight Howard's. TMZ has the photos of both relatives and the visible injuries (scratches, punches, swollen cheek bone, bloody ear etc).

    Keith Olbermann was right. Why is US Soccer allowing this athlete to continue to represent US in international competition? And celebrating her record for shutouts? She should be suspended now.

  90. @Suburban_elk
    White girls black athletes and college "rape" culture.

    These days and times, there is no agreement about what rape is: consent as a barometer is unworkable. Black athletes on campus take advantage of a situation: white girls put themselves out and get "raped".

    The white male power structure in the South and Seattle and everywhere else, knows the score: the girlies wents to the party and then for various reasons (including visceral disgust) feels bad and changes her mind and calls "rape" on the play. Who expects the 20 year-old jockaroos not to take advantage? they are not that dumb!

    Big time college sports, football and basketball, is the symbol of white America. The white male power structure (no quotes: the actual money in Atlanta and the fans in Seattle) gives its girls to the beast. The money men and the fan boys, they would like to go the party after the game, and just to watch.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @David R. Merridale

    Your post comes tantalizingly close to coherence.

  91. @Crank
    @curle

    "All this hand wringing over a female ‘assaulting’ a family member, especially when that family member is a male"

    Actually, she assaulted her sister and her teenaged nephew. Granted, the nephew was 17, but I'm not sure he's in a position psychologically or physically to fight back against his aunt (an authority figure), who happens to be a world class athlete.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Agreed. Also, keep in mind she also failed a PED test during ’12 Olympics. Her weight training regimen isn’t some sissy hissy bikini cheerleader USC trojans stuff. The nephew is a minor. In the eyes of the law, that is serious offense. She should be glad she wasn’t charged with a felony.

    One sportscaster who interviewed her said she has arms nearly as big as Dwight Howard’s. TMZ has the photos of both relatives and the visible injuries (scratches, punches, swollen cheek bone, bloody ear etc).

    Keith Olbermann was right. Why is US Soccer allowing this athlete to continue to represent US in international competition? And celebrating her record for shutouts? She should be suspended now.

  92. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Lackawanna

    Yeah, and its a fact.

    The top 5% of US men cannot bench press over 375lbs. Her top weight is around 380lbs. While women athletes aren't in the same league as elite men athletes, depending on the sport they are still well able to kick butt of 95% of men in US.

    Ronda Roussey, for example is much stronger than Solo and she definitely can bench over 400lbs. Roussey could easy kick 97% of US men's butts cause thats what she does for a living.

    Replies: @anonymous, @Renault

    you’re nuts.

    ronda rousey can bench 100 lbs for 15 reps.

    http://www.musclemag.com/the-ufc-all-strength-team/8/

    i’d be interested in seeing you’re sources.

    the only reason ronda could perhaps beat the average male is due to her judo throws and submission abilities coupled with male hesitance to beat up women.

  93. Yo/Zat, re: lynchings, the majority of those white lynched were out West and would include Mexicans and Chinese. 3k lynchings of blacks is immoral regardless of circumstances in a nation of laws.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Ron Mexico

    Well, go start a museum for all those lynched if there already isn't one just be sure to include whites.

    The other part is a lie. Chinese are not white. White people are white. About 1,5k WHITE people were lynched and generally for the same crimes as blacks were (e.g. rape, robbery, murder, etc). Amazing to consider, but perhaps some blacks were actual criminals back then. Most of the 1.5k whites lynched lived in the South. See, the south took quite seriously the matter of crime and weren't very tolerant or enlightened on the subject. If they caught someone whom they believed was guilty of a violent crime, it tended to be curtains for him.

    Of course we know that now times are different and that blacks and hispanics never ever commit any violent crime, right? Of course, the US gov. tells a different story. More than 3k blacks are murdered every yr for the last several decades but we never about that, wonder why?

    Replies: @Ron Mexico

  94. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Lackawanna

    Yeah, and its a fact.

    The top 5% of US men cannot bench press over 375lbs. Her top weight is around 380lbs. While women athletes aren't in the same league as elite men athletes, depending on the sport they are still well able to kick butt of 95% of men in US.

    Ronda Roussey, for example is much stronger than Solo and she definitely can bench over 400lbs. Roussey could easy kick 97% of US men's butts cause thats what she does for a living.

    Replies: @anonymous, @Renault

    Ronda Roussey, for example is much stronger than Solo and she definitely can bench over 400lbs. Roussey could easy kick 97% of US men’s butts cause thats what she does for a living.

    This is a typo or something, right? You can’t possibly mean what you say here.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Renault

    Not at all. Remember, most adult males in US are not in any great shape (e.g. obesity, sedentary, heart attacks, stroke etc) we include ALL males from age 18-65. They are not in shape on balance.

    Solo and Rousey are in the top 1% of fittest women athletes. Granted, women athletes are nowhere near as fit, strong, powerful etc as elite men athletes. At best they would probably be in the top 5 or even closer to top 10% of fittest male athletes of comparable age.

    But being around top 5-10% of elite male athletes still means that they could easily kick butts of about 90-95% of all adult males total because, if you've haven't heard by now, US is in an obesity/overweight/sedentary crisis. Most adult males aren't as strong and fit as they like to presume and certainly not vs a younger and stronger person.

    Friend reviewed her autobiography for some online pub. She's no stranger to fist fighting. She's beaten up her brother a former HS footballer who is 6'3" and about 250lbs. Perhaps at the court case next month details will emerge as to the nephews height weight etc. People are making a serious mistake when it comes to thinking she's some wall flower.

  95. You do realize that at 400 lbs bench press means bench pressing 400 lbs all at once, right? Benching 50 lbs 8 times doesn’t count.

  96. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @manton

    Life isn't as completely nuanced as you think. Many times there are bad people who commit horrible acts.

    It doesnt really matter what the motives are for why the town closes ranks around the the guy. In the end, they were right. Results are all that matter, just like in the real world. Who among anyone has perfect motives 100% of the time? No one.

    To Kill a Mockingbird wasn't a great book either. It certainly has no business being on the top five list of greatest US 20th century books ever written. It is its message, YT's racist power structure is to blame for everything that is wrong in the South, that has its lasting appeal to leftists at large.

    Basically what you fail to observe is this: While yes, those supporting Fareek did so for the wrong reasons, ultimately they were right. AND, Wolfe could've been more daring by actually making Fareek out in the end to be the rapist, in the end, he basically took the path of least resistance and made him to be the stereotypical not perfect and definitely flawed...victim of (perhaps in part) a racial lynching. That type of book has been overwritten and then some. It was starting to get old even before Wolf. Anyone can do that and many authors have. It's the old "No, he's not perfect, he does have his faults, a horrible person, etc but that doesnt make him a rapist/murderer/etc.

    Nope. Wolfe had a chance to be different and actually make the person guilty and he dropped the ball. So in that sense, the end result is quite similar to To Kill a Mockingbird. BOTH are innocent of the crimes. No he's not a saint, but not a rapist.

    That was a minor subplot of OJ Simpson's defense, by the way. Not perfect, but not guilty.

    Again, I think in fairness and as a good contrast to this book, that you and others would be served to at least read thru the Seattle Times in-depth investigative piece on UW's Jerramy Stevens. Then tell us if you think that Stevens was in fact the innocent party and that the person who filed charges vs him was some slut who was just asking for it.

    Fair is fair. One is of course fiction that has greatly impacted society at large while the other, admittedly, is an actual real world event that happened about ten yrs ago.

    I stand by what was said: In some ways, this book is quite similar to the message (if you examine it close enough under the surface) to Lee's To Kill a Mockingbird. Both men who were charged with rape in the end were innocent victims of the charges. BOTH in the end were victims of a witchunting lynching. While Mockingbird was literal lynching, Wolf's book does not make Fareek the actual villian. That indeed would've been most daring to do, and even more so in 2014 (to actually make a minority guilty of the crime he was originally charged with).

    Funny, I'm having a hard time trying to recall a recently written novel where a minority has ever turned out to be guilty as charged of a major violent crime (rape in particular but obviously others as well). Certainly Hollywood doesn't produce such films.

    And that's why I tend to be skeptical of novels such as these. Because I live in the real world I have to go by actual crime stats per the US government regarding violent crime. If what I read in fiction doesn't actually pair up and jibe with real life, then.....well, it is only but fiction after all.

    But seriously, I do suggest that you and others here read the Seattle Times account on Jarramy Stevens (wikipedia has the link). Granted, the reporters covering the case aren't as creative but I think they do tend to make the point (based on solid research) as to who is the innocent victim and who is guilty and should've been charged.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    investigative piece on UW’s Jerramy Stevens

    Funny you should bring up Jerramy…

    Mrs Jerramy Stevens, Hope Solo– the Cy Young of lady soccer goalies– is in the news for being charged with beating up her teenage nephew and his mother, her long-estranged half-sister. But the soccer establishment and her endorsees are standing behind her and allowing her to play because, dammit, she’s got a record to set.

    Why is this of note to iStevers? Well, a bunch of columnists, female columnists, starting with Andrea Peyser at the NY Post, down through the NYT, WaPo, USA T, etc, are going on about a double standard.

    A sexual double standard!

    Black players are going down like flies for domestic assault (yes, finally). A white athlete skates. It’s big news. Yet…

    Not one commentator of importance mentions a racial double standard!

    Is this wacky? Or is it progress?

    To be fair, Mrs Stevens does have her defenders, including America’s most female journalist, Ta-Nehisi Coates.

  97. Lot of people commenting here who’ve obviously never lifted a weight in their life.

    The unlimited weight class bench press record for women is 430 lbs. by an alleged woman named April Mathis. Google her image and you’ll see why I question her status as having two X chromosomes. I had to quadruple check when I saw the original image; “she’s” more of a guy than most posting here.

    The only way Solo or Roussey could get within shouting distance of that number is to gain 100 lbs. on a diet of raw meat and steroids.

    The number of people who regularly weight train benching 400 lbs. is less than 5%, never mind the general population.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Brutusale

    That's why I said that the top 1-5% of elite male athletes obviously would beat both Solo/Roussey. Both women have better training regimens than women athletes in times past and probably benefit from better genetics and/or a higher than average amount of testosterone that is normally found among women athletes in general. Solo failed a PED test at the '12 Olympics, by the way. The first women's soccer player ever to test for PEDS yet she was permitted to play. What makes anyone think Roussey isn't using PEDS either?

    As far as the original point, both Solo and Roussey could fairly easily kick butt of 95% of the general adult male population between 18-65, which as you know, is not in great athletic fit shape as most are obese, overweight, sedentary, health problems, etc.

    Replies: @Brutusale

  98. @Ron Mexico
    Yo/Zat, re: lynchings, the majority of those white lynched were out West and would include Mexicans and Chinese. 3k lynchings of blacks is immoral regardless of circumstances in a nation of laws.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Well, go start a museum for all those lynched if there already isn’t one just be sure to include whites.

    The other part is a lie. Chinese are not white. White people are white. About 1,5k WHITE people were lynched and generally for the same crimes as blacks were (e.g. rape, robbery, murder, etc). Amazing to consider, but perhaps some blacks were actual criminals back then. Most of the 1.5k whites lynched lived in the South. See, the south took quite seriously the matter of crime and weren’t very tolerant or enlightened on the subject. If they caught someone whom they believed was guilty of a violent crime, it tended to be curtains for him.

    Of course we know that now times are different and that blacks and hispanics never ever commit any violent crime, right? Of course, the US gov. tells a different story. More than 3k blacks are murdered every yr for the last several decades but we never about that, wonder why?

    • Replies: @Ron Mexico
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Yo/Zat,

    When I start that museum I'll be sure to let you look at recorded statistics for lynchings. The majority of whites lynched were west of the Mississippi. The records don't factor ethnicity, so Chinese coolies and Mexers are included as white since they weren't black. Whites were lynched in the southeastern states, but that usually had to do with assisting blacks, not committing rapes, etc..

  99. @Renault
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi


    Ronda Roussey, for example is much stronger than Solo and she definitely can bench over 400lbs. Roussey could easy kick 97% of US men’s butts cause thats what she does for a living.

     

    This is a typo or something, right? You can't possibly mean what you say here.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Not at all. Remember, most adult males in US are not in any great shape (e.g. obesity, sedentary, heart attacks, stroke etc) we include ALL males from age 18-65. They are not in shape on balance.

    Solo and Rousey are in the top 1% of fittest women athletes. Granted, women athletes are nowhere near as fit, strong, powerful etc as elite men athletes. At best they would probably be in the top 5 or even closer to top 10% of fittest male athletes of comparable age.

    But being around top 5-10% of elite male athletes still means that they could easily kick butts of about 90-95% of all adult males total because, if you’ve haven’t heard by now, US is in an obesity/overweight/sedentary crisis. Most adult males aren’t as strong and fit as they like to presume and certainly not vs a younger and stronger person.

    Friend reviewed her autobiography for some online pub. She’s no stranger to fist fighting. She’s beaten up her brother a former HS footballer who is 6’3″ and about 250lbs. Perhaps at the court case next month details will emerge as to the nephews height weight etc. People are making a serious mistake when it comes to thinking she’s some wall flower.

  100. @Brutusale
    Lot of people commenting here who've obviously never lifted a weight in their life.

    The unlimited weight class bench press record for women is 430 lbs. by an alleged woman named April Mathis. Google her image and you'll see why I question her status as having two X chromosomes. I had to quadruple check when I saw the original image; "she's" more of a guy than most posting here.

    The only way Solo or Roussey could get within shouting distance of that number is to gain 100 lbs. on a diet of raw meat and steroids.

    The number of people who regularly weight train benching 400 lbs. is less than 5%, never mind the general population.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    That’s why I said that the top 1-5% of elite male athletes obviously would beat both Solo/Roussey. Both women have better training regimens than women athletes in times past and probably benefit from better genetics and/or a higher than average amount of testosterone that is normally found among women athletes in general. Solo failed a PED test at the ’12 Olympics, by the way. The first women’s soccer player ever to test for PEDS yet she was permitted to play. What makes anyone think Roussey isn’t using PEDS either?

    As far as the original point, both Solo and Roussey could fairly easily kick butt of 95% of the general adult male population between 18-65, which as you know, is not in great athletic fit shape as most are obese, overweight, sedentary, health problems, etc.

    • Replies: @Brutusale
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Stay on point, son. It's about the 400 lb. bench comment, not about whose ass gets kicked.

    Rousey is probably the top FEMALE practitioner of her sport, not the top 1%, and she's pretty strong for her size. Just for giggles, I put 100 lbs. on the bar yesterday, which I haven't lifted since freshman year in high school, and did 40 reps. Could have squeezed out more, but to what end? Pretty boring. But I can still do 225 for 20 reps, so 100 isn't much of a test. What do you think Rousey maxes out at?

    More important, and what most non-athletes ignore, is what does she squat? The world record for her weight is 391 lbs. My best squat was 635 (before meniscus tears), and since I've added squats back in to my leg routine, I've recently done 505. Because her sport relies on her quickness as much as her strength, I think we can safely assume that, given the varied physical abilities required, she doesn't do the heaviest of leg routines.

    Every time an elite women's team goes up against some bunch of boys, never mind a men's team of the similar age and accomplishment, it goes down in flames. Didn't the dominant Williams sisters get their asses handed to them by a guy not even in the top 100? When I hear people talk about Rousey getting in the ring with some 135 lb. guy, I laugh. I just looked at the list of 135 lb. UFC class, and just looking at the fights, I'd think that any one of those guys would hit her in the face 5 times while she was still thinking about throwing a punch. Grappling would be even more of a mismatch.

    As every woman will tell you, size is everything. Why doesn't the UFC only have more than one woman's weight class? Because, given the mismatches inherent to women's sports, some big, strong girl might kill some overmatched opponent. Look at former woman's champion boxer Vonda Ward's record; nobody could deal with her size.

    Could she kick the average guy's ass? I don't doubt she could. Could she beat up the average large, strong guy who trains regularly. Probably. But her punch and kick plane would be different, and it would depend on her leg explosion and her ability to handle the strength difference if they locked up. It's not out of the question, though, that the large, strong guy, a young guy who, like old man me CURLS more than her body weight, would would get that Buster Douglas moment.

  101. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Ron Mexico

    Well, go start a museum for all those lynched if there already isn't one just be sure to include whites.

    The other part is a lie. Chinese are not white. White people are white. About 1,5k WHITE people were lynched and generally for the same crimes as blacks were (e.g. rape, robbery, murder, etc). Amazing to consider, but perhaps some blacks were actual criminals back then. Most of the 1.5k whites lynched lived in the South. See, the south took quite seriously the matter of crime and weren't very tolerant or enlightened on the subject. If they caught someone whom they believed was guilty of a violent crime, it tended to be curtains for him.

    Of course we know that now times are different and that blacks and hispanics never ever commit any violent crime, right? Of course, the US gov. tells a different story. More than 3k blacks are murdered every yr for the last several decades but we never about that, wonder why?

    Replies: @Ron Mexico

    Yo/Zat,

    When I start that museum I’ll be sure to let you look at recorded statistics for lynchings. The majority of whites lynched were west of the Mississippi. The records don’t factor ethnicity, so Chinese coolies and Mexers are included as white since they weren’t black. Whites were lynched in the southeastern states, but that usually had to do with assisting blacks, not committing rapes, etc..

  102. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Brutusale

    That's why I said that the top 1-5% of elite male athletes obviously would beat both Solo/Roussey. Both women have better training regimens than women athletes in times past and probably benefit from better genetics and/or a higher than average amount of testosterone that is normally found among women athletes in general. Solo failed a PED test at the '12 Olympics, by the way. The first women's soccer player ever to test for PEDS yet she was permitted to play. What makes anyone think Roussey isn't using PEDS either?

    As far as the original point, both Solo and Roussey could fairly easily kick butt of 95% of the general adult male population between 18-65, which as you know, is not in great athletic fit shape as most are obese, overweight, sedentary, health problems, etc.

    Replies: @Brutusale

    Stay on point, son. It’s about the 400 lb. bench comment, not about whose ass gets kicked.

    Rousey is probably the top FEMALE practitioner of her sport, not the top 1%, and she’s pretty strong for her size. Just for giggles, I put 100 lbs. on the bar yesterday, which I haven’t lifted since freshman year in high school, and did 40 reps. Could have squeezed out more, but to what end? Pretty boring. But I can still do 225 for 20 reps, so 100 isn’t much of a test. What do you think Rousey maxes out at?

    More important, and what most non-athletes ignore, is what does she squat? The world record for her weight is 391 lbs. My best squat was 635 (before meniscus tears), and since I’ve added squats back in to my leg routine, I’ve recently done 505. Because her sport relies on her quickness as much as her strength, I think we can safely assume that, given the varied physical abilities required, she doesn’t do the heaviest of leg routines.

    Every time an elite women’s team goes up against some bunch of boys, never mind a men’s team of the similar age and accomplishment, it goes down in flames. Didn’t the dominant Williams sisters get their asses handed to them by a guy not even in the top 100? When I hear people talk about Rousey getting in the ring with some 135 lb. guy, I laugh. I just looked at the list of 135 lb. UFC class, and just looking at the fights, I’d think that any one of those guys would hit her in the face 5 times while she was still thinking about throwing a punch. Grappling would be even more of a mismatch.

    As every woman will tell you, size is everything. Why doesn’t the UFC only have more than one woman’s weight class? Because, given the mismatches inherent to women’s sports, some big, strong girl might kill some overmatched opponent. Look at former woman’s champion boxer Vonda Ward’s record; nobody could deal with her size.

    Could she kick the average guy’s ass? I don’t doubt she could. Could she beat up the average large, strong guy who trains regularly. Probably. But her punch and kick plane would be different, and it would depend on her leg explosion and her ability to handle the strength difference if they locked up. It’s not out of the question, though, that the large, strong guy, a young guy who, like old man me CURLS more than her body weight, would would get that Buster Douglas moment.

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