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From Nature Human Behavior:

The global ecology of differentiation between us and them
Evert Van de Vliert

Abstract
Humans distinguish between we-groups and they-groups, such as relatives versus strangers and higher-ups versus lower-downs, thereby creating crucial preconditions for favouring their own groups while discriminating against others. Reported here is the finding that the extent of differentiation between us and them varies along latitude rather than longitude. In geographically isolated preindustrial societies, intergroup differentiation already peaked at the equator and tapered off towards the poles, while being negligibly related to longitude (observation study 1). Contemporary societies have evolved even stronger latitudinal gradients of intergroup differentiation (survey study 2 around 1970) and discrimination (mixed-method study 3 around 2010). The geography of contemporary differentiation and discrimination can be partially predicted by tropical climate stress (warm winters, hot summers and irregular rainfall), largely mediated by the interplay of pathogen stress and agricultural subsistence (explanatory study 4). The findings accumulate into an index of intergroup discrimination by inhabitants of 222 countries (integrative study 5).

Not having access to the whole article, I’m uncertain whether this is saying that there is more ingroup differentiation nearer the equator (e.g., clannish Sicily vs. nationalist/universalist Sweden, fractious India vs. imperial China), which seems plausible.

Or perhaps it is saying that there is more geographic differentiation along a north-south axis than along an east-west one: e.g., Italy is a difficult place to rule if you aren’t the Romans because it has a lot of north-south divergence. Similarly, the former country of Sudan broke apart into a brown north and a black south. This also sounds plausible.

Ukraine, which is 800 miles from east to west, is one country that has east-west problems. Germany also has had east-west divergence, in part because rivers in Germany tend to run from south to north, so the Rhine, for instance, created a fairly cohesive western Germany.

 
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  1. The abstract appears to say that xenophobia is more intense in human groups that live at lower latitudes. If so, then this research has important implications regarding the advisability of permitting third world immigration. What sane country would allow immigrants who will see themselves as the enemies of the host population.

    The abstract implies that a causal analysis was conducted, which might imply that the demonstrated latitudinal difference is evolutionarily based. Calling Kevin MacDonald.

    • Replies: @Drake
    @Bert


    What sane country would allow immigrants who will see themselves as the enemies of the host population.
     
    This is the simplest and most effective argument against immigration.

    Immigrants tend to be prejudiced against the native people and their culture.
  2. Not having access to the whole article

    Ask him for the PDF. His email is on his university’s website.

    I’ve never been refused when asking for a copy of a paper.

    By the way, he’s 79 years old, and a psychologist.

    • Agree: Thulean Friend
    • Replies: @Pericles
    @Anon

    It appears he even provides the underlying dataset. A very helpful old fellow.

    https://dataverse.nl/dataset.xhtml?persistentId=hdl:10411/YXI7WH

  3. My question is why would anyone choose to live in freezing cold places? Minnesota is full of intelligent folks who surely have options elsewhere. Do they get used to it?

    Of course, heat is bad too, but as I get older I find heat more tolerable than cold. 🙂

    • Agree: obvious
  4. Merry Christmas, Mr. Sailer. Thank you for all that you do.

    • Replies: @obwandiyag
    @Grumpy

    Yes, thank you for teaching us that negroes are inferior and nothing else day in day out.

  5. I’m uncertain whether this is saying that there is more ingroup differentiation nearer the equator (e.g., clannish Sicily vs. nationalist/universalist Sweden, fractious India vs. imperial China), which seems plausible.

    Absolutely. The Middle East would be the supreme example: Druza Yezdi and no doubt one or two other obscure dwindling sects no one has ever heard of. Sometimes though not often races of animals show greater differentiation at the borders of their territory with other races.

    Ukraine, which is 800 miles from east to west, is one country that has east-west problems. Germany also has had east-west divergence, in part because rivers in Germany tend to run from south to north, so the Rhine, for instance, created a fairly cohesive western Germany.

    I think what created the cohesiveness of Germany despite its political fragmentation into little princely states jealous of their rights was the Holy Roman Empire and trade. Germany was the first country with universal literacy across a substantial region. The French (and their protestant proxy Sweden) marched all over the German nation during the so called wars of religion , which were basically to prevent anyone especially Germans from establishing control over the vast potential manpower resources and wealth of the fragmented German nation (since Kissinger the US has pursues a similar policy against the Arabs, whose mass of the population the British separated from the oil wealth by the creation of the Gulf Statelets).

    Under Napoleon France took the German possessions west of the Rhine abolished the Holy Roman Empire and secularized many of its the free cities and principalities. Being fed up with the French made the West Germans less angry about the Prussian takeover, but these prosperous western areas maintained some distance and resisted being taxed by Berlin. The Weimar republic altered those arrangements and enabled far greeting tax raising powers for central government, which one reason when he inherited this new capacity to tax and exert more of Germany’s potential strength Hitler was able to decisively defeat a major Powers such as Britain and France,and almost defeat the Soviet Union.

    https://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/2017/09/what-britain-needs-understand-about-profound-and-ancient-divisions-germany

    Why did Adenauer dislike the eastern Germans, think Berlin was expendable and consider the River Elbe to be the natural frontier? Simple: he knew that the Elbe was Germany’s Mason-Dixon line. Beyond it lay the flat, grim Prussian heartlands, which until 1945 stretched into present-day Russia. This vast region was known to Germans as “Ostelbien” – East Elbia. Adenauer viewed the “unification” of Germany in 1871 as East Elbia’s annexation of the west. That’s why in 1919, as mayor of Cologne, and again in 1923, he tried to get Britain and France to back a breakaway western German state. Having failed, he is said to have muttered, “Here we go, Asia again,” and closed the blinds every time his train crossed east over the Elbe. […]

    Since 1990, the former East Germany has received more than €2trn from the old West Germany, for a fast-ageing, shrinking and disproportionately male population of only 16 million, including Berlin. That’s the equivalent of a Greek bailout every year since 1990, and as a straight gift, not a loan. This represents a huge shift in financial priorities, overshadowing Germany’s annual net EU budget contribution (currently €15.5bn). In 1990, Kohl promised that western German aid would soon turn the new states into “blooming” areas, but they have become, instead, proof that age-old differences resist even the most gigantic subsidies.

    According to the late Robert Gayre, “the Elbe is a pronounced ethnographic frontier “. The further East you go the more testosteronised and broad faced the population are. Compare Swedes to Finns.

    One would expect the Arabs to become more cohesive and unified under US interventions but as with the abortive United Arab Republic and Nasser’s 1962 invasion of Yemen foiled by off the books British, paid for the by the Saudis (Saddam’s invasion of Kuwait was a larger sale re run ). The humiliation of 1967 was contributed to by the Egyptians concurrent engagement in Yemen . Anyway, it seems that Arabs have been too selected culturally and perhaps genetically for competition to be able to cooperate like Germans of north and south, Protestant and Catholic did. Yet. An invasion of Iran might do it though.

    • Troll: JohnPlywood
    • Replies: @Neoconned
    @Sean

    Sean that was a fascinating analysis.

    I'm not trying to kiss your ads either....if I may ask what is your trade? Historian? Economist? Political science professor?

    , @Daniel H
    @Sean

    Absolutely. The Middle East would be the supreme example: Druza Yezdi and no doubt one or two other obscure dwindling sects no one has ever heard of.

    Mandaeans, an Iraq located sect I never hear of untill 10 years ago or so. They are a monotheistic religion, revere some of the familiar bible personalities but most importantly John the Baptist. They are not Christians, not Muslims, not Jews, jut doing there own thing. But our invasion and the aftermath has for certain made life much more difficult for this obscure, esoteric, inoffensive people.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandaeism

    , @nebulafox
    @Sean

    I think Adenauer's biggest achievement in power was to ensure that, however he felt about them in private, the 15 million or so ethnic Germans who came from east of the Oder-Neisse and from places like Romania or Czechoslovakia didn't end up becoming a permanent underclass in postwar West Germany. That could have easily happened, though the Nazi years ironically also did a lot to eliminate regional distinctions: and to haul Germany into "modernity" in general.

    >Yet. An invasion of Iran might do it though.

    But hasn't the religious distinction been far stronger than pan-Arab nationalism has been for many decades? Iraq's basically ruled by Iranian puppets (good going Dubya), even before you get to Syria and Lebanon. Plenty of Iran-sympathizing Shi'ites in the eastern provinces of Saudi, too.

    Replies: @Sean

    , @jpp
    @Sean

    Great observation; I was just talking about this with a Lithuanian guy I drink with on Chicago's south side. East of the Elbe, a lot of surnames and ethnic backgrounds that are on the surface for all immediate intents and purposes German actually have significant Baltic or Slavic or perhaps even, to a lesser extent, Finno Ugric, genealogical linkages. Recently rereading Mann's Buddenbrooks made me think about this as well

    Replies: @MBlanc46

    , @JohnPlywood
    @Sean

    You're persistently confused. A broad face specifically is correlated with lower testosterone.

    https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Steven_Gaulin/publication/301299837/figure/fig2/AS:[email protected]/Facial-masculinity-ratios-a-b-by-age-testoster

    , @obwandiyag
    @Sean

    East Germany was better off under communism. As with everything. Ask Petra Kelly. Oh, wait. If you think that East Germany would have been better off as a separate, still communist state, then they kill you.

  6. Thank you, Mr. Sailer, and Merry Christmas to you!

    It’s nice to see that there are still old-school, genuine, academic social psychologists at work, untainted by race and identity ideologies.

    Here’s an abstract from one of his papers of a few years ago, that gives us more of an idea of the kind of research he does (the boldface highlighting is mine.)

    It’s from his CV, which lists several links to such abstracts.

    https://www.rug.nl/staff/e.van.de.vliert/cv

    Climato-economic theorizing proposes that humans adapt needs, stresses, and choices of goals, means, and outcomes to the livability of their habitat. The evolutionary process at work is one of collectively meeting climatic demands of cold winters or hot summers by using monetary resources. Freedom is expected to be lowest in poor populations threatened by demanding thermal climates, intermediate in populations comforted by undemanding temperate climates irrespective of income per head, and highest in rich populations challenged by demanding thermal climates. This core hypothesis is supported with new survey data across 85 countries and 15 Chinese provinces and with a reinterpretative review of results of prior studies comprising 174 countries and the 50 states in the United States. Empirical support covers freedom from want, freedom from fear, freedom of expression and participation, freedom from discrimination, and freedom to develop and realize one’s human potential. Applying the theory to projections of temperature and income for 104 countries by 2112 forecasts that (a) poor populations in Asia, perhaps except Afghans and Pakistanis, will move up the international ladder of freedom, (b) poor populations in Africa will lose, rather than gain, relative levels of freedom unless climate protection and poverty reduction prevent this from happening, and (c) several rich populations will be challenged to defend current levels of freedom against worsening climato-economic livability.

    • Replies: @Neoconned
    @PiltdownMan

    I wonder if political catering to immigrant minorities in 1st world nations is more the cause of that "loss of freedom"

  7. Didn’t Jared Diamond write something similar in Guns, Germs, and Steel?

    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
    @Redneck farmer

    Redneck farmer asked:


    Didn’t Jared Diamond write something similar in Guns, Germs, and Steel?
     
    Yes, Van de Vliert acknowledges that in the paper: the body of the paper is pretty readable, by the way.
  8. Sudan wasn’t really a case of splitting between the brown north and the black south, if for no other reason than that the northerners may be somewhat lighter than the southern counterparts but are still black by any definition of the term. It was much more a matter of the Christian south splitting from the Muslim north.

    Nigeria has a similar latitude-based Christian/Muslim split, but the very high degree of autonomy its states enjoy keep the country together.

    • Replies: @AKAHorace
    @prosa123


    the northerners may be somewhat lighter than the southern counterparts but are still black by any definition of the term.
     
    Where you draw the line between black and white changes over the world. An american anthropologist tells how she is black in the US, mixed race in France and white in the area of Africa where she does her field work.

    Merry Christmas everyone.
  9. From the link provided by PTT:

    Nevertheless, inhabitants of distinct world regions differ considerably in intergroup differentiation—defined here as judging and treating people as members of either ingroups or outgroups rather than individuals….

    Despite their many differences, the two hypotheses share the idea that stronger differentiation and discrimination between us and them evolved from higher tropical climate stress at lower latitudes

    I.e., “Ice People” tend more to judge other humans as individuals, while “Sun People” tend to judge people as members of a group.

    I’m rather surprised that Nature is publishing this: just wait till the Twittersphere hears!

    Of course, maybe they will like it: the implication is that Sun People are “Woke” — focusing on groups rather than atomized individuals. Maybe someone has finally found some characterization that everyone will agree on?

    • Replies: @Svevlad
    @PhysicistDave

    If you think about it, it's strange. You'd say that the northeners would be the "woke" ones and the southerners the individualists.

    Unless, the ice people initially appeared in a more pleasant climate conductive of indivisualism...

    Replies: @Desiderius

    , @res
    @PhysicistDave

    This graphic gives another view on who is woke or not:

    https://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41562-019-0783-3/MediaObjects/41562_2019_783_Fig5_ESM.jpg

    Caption:


    Horizontally viewed, both slopes tell that higher pathogen stress increases gender discrimination, albeit less so in areas with much agriculture (B(153) = .29, p < .001, CI = .16 to .42 for the upper slope) than in areas with little agriculture (B(153) = .65, p < .001, CI = .49 to .82 for the lower slope). Vertically viewed, both gaps between slopes tell that more agriculture increases gender discrimination, albeit less so in areas with high pathogen stress (B(153) = .36, p < .001, CI = .22 to .49 for the right gap) than in areas with low pathogen stress (B(153) = .72, p < .001, CI = .56 to .89 for the left gap).
     
    So there are two effects apparent . Both pathogen stress and increased agriculture appear to decrease wokeness.

    P.S. I share your surprise.
    , @SunBakedSuburb
    @PhysicistDave

    "'Ice People' tend more to judge other humans as individuals"

    Ice People were intensely tribal before the Enlightenment kicked-in. And wasn't the European Enlightenment informed by the Muslim world?

    Replies: @PhysicistDave

  10. @Redneck farmer
    Didn't Jared Diamond write something similar in Guns, Germs, and Steel?

    Replies: @PhysicistDave

    Redneck farmer asked:

    Didn’t Jared Diamond write something similar in Guns, Germs, and Steel?

    Yes, Van de Vliert acknowledges that in the paper: the body of the paper is pretty readable, by the way.

  11. Anon[337] • Disclaimer says:

    OT

    Los Angeles Times restaurant critic Patricia Escarcega answering reader mail:

    A family friend brought homemade tamales to her office to share with coworkers. One colleague offered to pay to her to make a batch for them; another voiced concern that she would be taking business away from Latino tamale-makers if she did.

    Note: Latinx journalist in Latinx region of country refuses to use the word Latinx.

    The topic of cultural appropriation is both big and nuanced; every incident deserves thoughtful consideration.

    Yes, let’s turn every trivial activity in life into a vexing federal case.

    There’s a long tradition of African American tamale makers along the Mississippi Delta. And in the New Yorker writer Kathryn Schulz illuminated the history of Afghan tamale makers in the American West.

    So it’s O.K. for non-whites to make tamales. What about her white friend?

    The advice I gave to my friend: Fill yourself with appreciation and respect for the dish’s long history. Then go forth and make tamales.

    Whew!

    Next week: “Can I give out mini sombreros bought on Alibaba as party favors on taco night?”

    https://www.latimes.com/food/story/2019-12-21/tamales-tasting-notes-newsletter-patricia-escarcega

  12. we-groups and they-groups

    In idiomatic English the expression is “us and them” not “we and they”.

    the Rhine, for instance, created a fairly cohesive western Germany.

    But some of the best territory in the old West Germany was west of the Rhine.

    Anyway, Sailer young man, Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year..

  13. @PhysicistDave
    From the link provided by PTT:

    Nevertheless, inhabitants of distinct world regions differ considerably in intergroup differentiation—defined here as judging and treating people as members of either ingroups or outgroups rather than individuals....

    Despite their many differences, the two hypotheses share the idea that stronger differentiation and discrimination between us and them evolved from higher tropical climate stress at lower latitudes
     
    I.e., "Ice People" tend more to judge other humans as individuals, while "Sun People" tend to judge people as members of a group.

    I'm rather surprised that Nature is publishing this: just wait till the Twittersphere hears!

    Of course, maybe they will like it: the implication is that Sun People are "Woke" -- focusing on groups rather than atomized individuals. Maybe someone has finally found some characterization that everyone will agree on?

    Replies: @Svevlad, @res, @SunBakedSuburb

    If you think about it, it’s strange. You’d say that the northeners would be the “woke” ones and the southerners the individualists.

    Unless, the ice people initially appeared in a more pleasant climate conductive of indivisualism…

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @Svevlad

    Ice people are ice people because they got their asses kicked all the way to the ice.

    Now once they got there the lower margin for error got a lot of that Crooked Timber straightened out, but you’re not working with the best raw materials.

  14. The German dialect boundaries run east-west, rather than north-south.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benrath_line

  15. Is the current version of Ukraine even one country at all? Bits of Russia, Lithuania, Poland and whatnot.

  16. USA has an east-middle-west divergence.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @inertial


    USA has an east-middle-west divergence.
     
    Or an East-middle-finger one.

    As they say, in NYC, "F.Y.!" really means "Have a nice day."

    In LA, "Have a nice day" means "F.Y.!"
  17. @Sean

    I’m uncertain whether this is saying that there is more ingroup differentiation nearer the equator (e.g., clannish Sicily vs. nationalist/universalist Sweden, fractious India vs. imperial China), which seems plausible.
     
    Absolutely. The Middle East would be the supreme example: Druza Yezdi and no doubt one or two other obscure dwindling sects no one has ever heard of. Sometimes though not often races of animals show greater differentiation at the borders of their territory with other races.

    Ukraine, which is 800 miles from east to west, is one country that has east-west problems. Germany also has had east-west divergence, in part because rivers in Germany tend to run from south to north, so the Rhine, for instance, created a fairly cohesive western Germany.
     
    I think what created the cohesiveness of Germany despite its political fragmentation into little princely states jealous of their rights was the Holy Roman Empire and trade. Germany was the first country with universal literacy across a substantial region. The French (and their protestant proxy Sweden) marched all over the German nation during the so called wars of religion , which were basically to prevent anyone especially Germans from establishing control over the vast potential manpower resources and wealth of the fragmented German nation (since Kissinger the US has pursues a similar policy against the Arabs, whose mass of the population the British separated from the oil wealth by the creation of the Gulf Statelets).

    Under Napoleon France took the German possessions west of the Rhine abolished the Holy Roman Empire and secularized many of its the free cities and principalities. Being fed up with the French made the West Germans less angry about the Prussian takeover, but these prosperous western areas maintained some distance and resisted being taxed by Berlin. The Weimar republic altered those arrangements and enabled far greeting tax raising powers for central government, which one reason when he inherited this new capacity to tax and exert more of Germany's potential strength Hitler was able to decisively defeat a major Powers such as Britain and France,and almost defeat the Soviet Union.


    https://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/2017/09/what-britain-needs-understand-about-profound-and-ancient-divisions-germany

    Why did Adenauer dislike the eastern Germans, think Berlin was expendable and consider the River Elbe to be the natural frontier? Simple: he knew that the Elbe was Germany’s Mason-Dixon line. Beyond it lay the flat, grim Prussian heartlands, which until 1945 stretched into present-day Russia. This vast region was known to Germans as “Ostelbien” – East Elbia. Adenauer viewed the “unification” of Germany in 1871 as East Elbia’s annexation of the west. That’s why in 1919, as mayor of Cologne, and again in 1923, he tried to get Britain and France to back a breakaway western German state. Having failed, he is said to have muttered, “Here we go, Asia again,” and closed the blinds every time his train crossed east over the Elbe. […]

    Since 1990, the former East Germany has received more than €2trn from the old West Germany, for a fast-ageing, shrinking and disproportionately male population of only 16 million, including Berlin. That’s the equivalent of a Greek bailout every year since 1990, and as a straight gift, not a loan. This represents a huge shift in financial priorities, overshadowing Germany’s annual net EU budget contribution (currently €15.5bn). In 1990, Kohl promised that western German aid would soon turn the new states into “blooming” areas, but they have become, instead, proof that age-old differences resist even the most gigantic subsidies.
     

    According to the late Robert Gayre, “the Elbe is a pronounced ethnographic frontier “. The further East you go the more testosteronised and broad faced the population are. Compare Swedes to Finns.

    One would expect the Arabs to become more cohesive and unified under US interventions but as with the abortive United Arab Republic and Nasser's 1962 invasion of Yemen foiled by off the books British, paid for the by the Saudis (Saddam's invasion of Kuwait was a larger sale re run ). The humiliation of 1967 was contributed to by the Egyptians concurrent engagement in Yemen . Anyway, it seems that Arabs have been too selected culturally and perhaps genetically for competition to be able to cooperate like Germans of north and south, Protestant and Catholic did. Yet. An invasion of Iran might do it though.

    Replies: @Neoconned, @Daniel H, @nebulafox, @jpp, @JohnPlywood, @obwandiyag

    Sean that was a fascinating analysis.

    I’m not trying to kiss your ads either….if I may ask what is your trade? Historian? Economist? Political science professor?

  18. @PiltdownMan
    Thank you, Mr. Sailer, and Merry Christmas to you!

    It's nice to see that there are still old-school, genuine, academic social psychologists at work, untainted by race and identity ideologies.

    Here's an abstract from one of his papers of a few years ago, that gives us more of an idea of the kind of research he does (the boldface highlighting is mine.)

    It's from his CV, which lists several links to such abstracts.

    https://www.rug.nl/staff/e.van.de.vliert/cv


    Climato-economic theorizing proposes that humans adapt needs, stresses, and choices of goals, means, and outcomes to the livability of their habitat. The evolutionary process at work is one of collectively meeting climatic demands of cold winters or hot summers by using monetary resources. Freedom is expected to be lowest in poor populations threatened by demanding thermal climates, intermediate in populations comforted by undemanding temperate climates irrespective of income per head, and highest in rich populations challenged by demanding thermal climates. This core hypothesis is supported with new survey data across 85 countries and 15 Chinese provinces and with a reinterpretative review of results of prior studies comprising 174 countries and the 50 states in the United States. Empirical support covers freedom from want, freedom from fear, freedom of expression and participation, freedom from discrimination, and freedom to develop and realize one's human potential. Applying the theory to projections of temperature and income for 104 countries by 2112 forecasts that (a) poor populations in Asia, perhaps except Afghans and Pakistanis, will move up the international ladder of freedom, (b) poor populations in Africa will lose, rather than gain, relative levels of freedom unless climate protection and poverty reduction prevent this from happening, and (c) several rich populations will be challenged to defend current levels of freedom against worsening climato-economic livability.



     

    Replies: @Neoconned

    I wonder if political catering to immigrant minorities in 1st world nations is more the cause of that “loss of freedom”

  19. @PhysicistDave
    From the link provided by PTT:

    Nevertheless, inhabitants of distinct world regions differ considerably in intergroup differentiation—defined here as judging and treating people as members of either ingroups or outgroups rather than individuals....

    Despite their many differences, the two hypotheses share the idea that stronger differentiation and discrimination between us and them evolved from higher tropical climate stress at lower latitudes
     
    I.e., "Ice People" tend more to judge other humans as individuals, while "Sun People" tend to judge people as members of a group.

    I'm rather surprised that Nature is publishing this: just wait till the Twittersphere hears!

    Of course, maybe they will like it: the implication is that Sun People are "Woke" -- focusing on groups rather than atomized individuals. Maybe someone has finally found some characterization that everyone will agree on?

    Replies: @Svevlad, @res, @SunBakedSuburb

    This graphic gives another view on who is woke or not:

    Caption:

    Horizontally viewed, both slopes tell that higher pathogen stress increases gender discrimination, albeit less so in areas with much agriculture (B(153) = .29, p < .001, CI = .16 to .42 for the upper slope) than in areas with little agriculture (B(153) = .65, p < .001, CI = .49 to .82 for the lower slope). Vertically viewed, both gaps between slopes tell that more agriculture increases gender discrimination, albeit less so in areas with high pathogen stress (B(153) = .36, p < .001, CI = .22 to .49 for the right gap) than in areas with low pathogen stress (B(153) = .72, p < .001, CI = .56 to .89 for the left gap).

    So there are two effects apparent . Both pathogen stress and increased agriculture appear to decrease wokeness.

    P.S. I share your surprise.

  20. The Supplementary Material (at Steve’s link) has Excel data for all 5 studies and an explanatory PDF which includes SPSS analysis code.

    Some of the data is also available in SPSS files at https://hdl.handle.net/10411/YXI7WH

    Much to look at there (on another day ; ). In particular, I am interested in trying to associate the country data with Rindermann’s extensive country data and the USA state data with other state datasets.

    Merry Christmas, everyone.

  21. @PhysicistDave
    From the link provided by PTT:

    Nevertheless, inhabitants of distinct world regions differ considerably in intergroup differentiation—defined here as judging and treating people as members of either ingroups or outgroups rather than individuals....

    Despite their many differences, the two hypotheses share the idea that stronger differentiation and discrimination between us and them evolved from higher tropical climate stress at lower latitudes
     
    I.e., "Ice People" tend more to judge other humans as individuals, while "Sun People" tend to judge people as members of a group.

    I'm rather surprised that Nature is publishing this: just wait till the Twittersphere hears!

    Of course, maybe they will like it: the implication is that Sun People are "Woke" -- focusing on groups rather than atomized individuals. Maybe someone has finally found some characterization that everyone will agree on?

    Replies: @Svevlad, @res, @SunBakedSuburb

    “‘Ice People’ tend more to judge other humans as individuals”

    Ice People were intensely tribal before the Enlightenment kicked-in. And wasn’t the European Enlightenment informed by the Muslim world?

    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
    @SunBakedSuburb

    SunBakedSuburb wrote to me:


    Ice People were intensely tribal before the Enlightenment kicked-in
     
    Actually, my understanding is that research shows that European, and especially English, family structure way back into the medieval period was less focused on the extended family than most other civilizations. And The Canterbury Tales and the Morte d'Arthur and the tales of Robin Hood all seem to protray a society in which it was natural for ordinary people to step outside their family and their village of birth and form wider loyalties and attachments.

    Europeans have had this strange combination of individualism and clubbishness for a very, very long time.

    SunBakedSuburb also asked:

    And wasn’t the European Enlightenment informed by the Muslim world?
     
    As I understand it, the Enlightenment thinkers were more interested in China than the Muslim world, but even that was largely a foil to critique their own society.

    Long before the Enlightenment, Muslim Civilization was in intellectual decline. Historians debate the central cause of this decline: The Mongol conquest of Baghdad in 1258? The rise of the Ash'arite philosophy, most notably al-Ghazali? Here is an interesting overview.

    Muslims made a handful of important discoveries in science and math during the Middle Ages. But, no, I do not think Muslim civilization was a significant inspiration for the Enlightenment.

    Western Europeans (and, in an even more exaggerated way, Americans) are weird compared to most human cultures (as also were the ancient Greeks). And it has enabled us to do some wonderful (and, yes, horrible) things.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @nebulafox, @anonymous coward, @Jim Don Bob

  22. @prosa123
    Sudan wasn't really a case of splitting between the brown north and the black south, if for no other reason than that the northerners may be somewhat lighter than the southern counterparts but are still black by any definition of the term. It was much more a matter of the Christian south splitting from the Muslim north.

    Nigeria has a similar latitude-based Christian/Muslim split, but the very high degree of autonomy its states enjoy keep the country together.

    Replies: @AKAHorace

    the northerners may be somewhat lighter than the southern counterparts but are still black by any definition of the term.

    Where you draw the line between black and white changes over the world. An american anthropologist tells how she is black in the US, mixed race in France and white in the area of Africa where she does her field work.

    Merry Christmas everyone.

  23. @Sean

    I’m uncertain whether this is saying that there is more ingroup differentiation nearer the equator (e.g., clannish Sicily vs. nationalist/universalist Sweden, fractious India vs. imperial China), which seems plausible.
     
    Absolutely. The Middle East would be the supreme example: Druza Yezdi and no doubt one or two other obscure dwindling sects no one has ever heard of. Sometimes though not often races of animals show greater differentiation at the borders of their territory with other races.

    Ukraine, which is 800 miles from east to west, is one country that has east-west problems. Germany also has had east-west divergence, in part because rivers in Germany tend to run from south to north, so the Rhine, for instance, created a fairly cohesive western Germany.
     
    I think what created the cohesiveness of Germany despite its political fragmentation into little princely states jealous of their rights was the Holy Roman Empire and trade. Germany was the first country with universal literacy across a substantial region. The French (and their protestant proxy Sweden) marched all over the German nation during the so called wars of religion , which were basically to prevent anyone especially Germans from establishing control over the vast potential manpower resources and wealth of the fragmented German nation (since Kissinger the US has pursues a similar policy against the Arabs, whose mass of the population the British separated from the oil wealth by the creation of the Gulf Statelets).

    Under Napoleon France took the German possessions west of the Rhine abolished the Holy Roman Empire and secularized many of its the free cities and principalities. Being fed up with the French made the West Germans less angry about the Prussian takeover, but these prosperous western areas maintained some distance and resisted being taxed by Berlin. The Weimar republic altered those arrangements and enabled far greeting tax raising powers for central government, which one reason when he inherited this new capacity to tax and exert more of Germany's potential strength Hitler was able to decisively defeat a major Powers such as Britain and France,and almost defeat the Soviet Union.


    https://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/2017/09/what-britain-needs-understand-about-profound-and-ancient-divisions-germany

    Why did Adenauer dislike the eastern Germans, think Berlin was expendable and consider the River Elbe to be the natural frontier? Simple: he knew that the Elbe was Germany’s Mason-Dixon line. Beyond it lay the flat, grim Prussian heartlands, which until 1945 stretched into present-day Russia. This vast region was known to Germans as “Ostelbien” – East Elbia. Adenauer viewed the “unification” of Germany in 1871 as East Elbia’s annexation of the west. That’s why in 1919, as mayor of Cologne, and again in 1923, he tried to get Britain and France to back a breakaway western German state. Having failed, he is said to have muttered, “Here we go, Asia again,” and closed the blinds every time his train crossed east over the Elbe. […]

    Since 1990, the former East Germany has received more than €2trn from the old West Germany, for a fast-ageing, shrinking and disproportionately male population of only 16 million, including Berlin. That’s the equivalent of a Greek bailout every year since 1990, and as a straight gift, not a loan. This represents a huge shift in financial priorities, overshadowing Germany’s annual net EU budget contribution (currently €15.5bn). In 1990, Kohl promised that western German aid would soon turn the new states into “blooming” areas, but they have become, instead, proof that age-old differences resist even the most gigantic subsidies.
     

    According to the late Robert Gayre, “the Elbe is a pronounced ethnographic frontier “. The further East you go the more testosteronised and broad faced the population are. Compare Swedes to Finns.

    One would expect the Arabs to become more cohesive and unified under US interventions but as with the abortive United Arab Republic and Nasser's 1962 invasion of Yemen foiled by off the books British, paid for the by the Saudis (Saddam's invasion of Kuwait was a larger sale re run ). The humiliation of 1967 was contributed to by the Egyptians concurrent engagement in Yemen . Anyway, it seems that Arabs have been too selected culturally and perhaps genetically for competition to be able to cooperate like Germans of north and south, Protestant and Catholic did. Yet. An invasion of Iran might do it though.

    Replies: @Neoconned, @Daniel H, @nebulafox, @jpp, @JohnPlywood, @obwandiyag

    Absolutely. The Middle East would be the supreme example: Druza Yezdi and no doubt one or two other obscure dwindling sects no one has ever heard of.

    Mandaeans, an Iraq located sect I never hear of untill 10 years ago or so. They are a monotheistic religion, revere some of the familiar bible personalities but most importantly John the Baptist. They are not Christians, not Muslims, not Jews, jut doing there own thing. But our invasion and the aftermath has for certain made life much more difficult for this obscure, esoteric, inoffensive people.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandaeism

  24. @SunBakedSuburb
    @PhysicistDave

    "'Ice People' tend more to judge other humans as individuals"

    Ice People were intensely tribal before the Enlightenment kicked-in. And wasn't the European Enlightenment informed by the Muslim world?

    Replies: @PhysicistDave

    SunBakedSuburb wrote to me:

    Ice People were intensely tribal before the Enlightenment kicked-in

    Actually, my understanding is that research shows that European, and especially English, family structure way back into the medieval period was less focused on the extended family than most other civilizations. And The Canterbury Tales and the Morte d’Arthur and the tales of Robin Hood all seem to protray a society in which it was natural for ordinary people to step outside their family and their village of birth and form wider loyalties and attachments.

    Europeans have had this strange combination of individualism and clubbishness for a very, very long time.

    SunBakedSuburb also asked:

    And wasn’t the European Enlightenment informed by the Muslim world?

    As I understand it, the Enlightenment thinkers were more interested in China than the Muslim world, but even that was largely a foil to critique their own society.

    Long before the Enlightenment, Muslim Civilization was in intellectual decline. Historians debate the central cause of this decline: The Mongol conquest of Baghdad in 1258? The rise of the Ash’arite philosophy, most notably al-Ghazali? Here is an interesting overview.

    Muslims made a handful of important discoveries in science and math during the Middle Ages. But, no, I do not think Muslim civilization was a significant inspiration for the Enlightenment.

    Western Europeans (and, in an even more exaggerated way, Americans) are weird compared to most human cultures (as also were the ancient Greeks). And it has enabled us to do some wonderful (and, yes, horrible) things.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @PhysicistDave

    There was a fashion in the Enlightennent of superficial (and, most definitely, Orientalist) contrarian embracing of the other, less from informed admiration and more to stick it to the Vatican, and normally containing ideas which would not survive in the (not really) adopted homeland: consider the Persian Letters or the thing where people as a joke were wearing pseudo-Arabian headgear.
    Also, let us finally ditch the Gavin Menzies fallacy: regardless of the origin of the ideas, it was the implementation and improvement which mattered. Eastern Europe never lost its connection to the Classical Greeks, never had a phase where they forgot what bathing was, and suffered an entirely too close connection to the Umma.

    Replies: @nebulafox

    , @nebulafox
    @PhysicistDave

    >Muslims made a handful of important discoveries in science and math during the Middle Ages. But, no, I do not think Muslim civilization was a significant inspiration for the Enlightenment.

    One thing that was interesting was Central Asia between 800 and 1200: there were significant breakthroughs in everything from mathematics to medicine. Baghdad gets all the press from the Islamophile types, but really, Central Asia was way more impressive during those 400 years. One guy predicted the existence of other planets: people were still getting burnt at the stake for the latter in the Europe for proposing that centuries later. Not bad for a region that became a total backwater afterwards.

    However, while the region would largely convert to Islam, the intellectual revolution that stemmed there did have pre-Muslim roots in the Persianate Zoroastrian culture that dominated the region. I'd chalk that up to the fact while that the Sassanids did undergo the same sort of state sponsored religious consolidation that post-Constantine Rome so glaringly did, it was never to the same extent (Persia was always more decentralized than Rome), and without the anti-intellectual fervor that took hold in Europe. I'd agree that the connection with the Western Enlightenment is, at best, tangential. It's more of a sad lesson of how an area of the world so far ahead of the others can decline and ultimately collapse, not least because of self-satisfication and complacency toward rot at home. I'm proud to ultimately know Central Asia for more than it has become today: and I'd recommend people go visit the leftover buildings that still exist within Chinese borders before the CCP culturally vandalizes them all...

    Let that be a warning to the West. The Chinese aren't making that mistake, they recently suffered the consequences of it in the broad scheme of history.

    S. Frederick Starr chalks up the intellectual decline to religious strife back in the Middle East that infected Central Asia. In this framework, al-Ghazali was a symptom of that, not the cause. The Mongols further jacked things up by bringing nothing less than the seeming apocalypse with them-as they did everywhere, Russia took many centuries to fully recover from that trauma, and much of the Middle East arguably never did-but Starr makes the point that the intellectual blooming period was coming to a close several decades before they arrived.

    Happy Saturnalia, Dave!

    Replies: @PhysicistDave

    , @anonymous coward
    @PhysicistDave


    Muslims made a handful of important discoveries in science and math during the Middle Ages.
     
    Persians, not 'Muslims'. And the discoveries were made in spite of Islam, not because of it. Once the Muslims got to business for real on the Persians, the discoveries obviously stopped.

    Replies: @MBlanc46

    , @Jim Don Bob
    @PhysicistDave


    Muslims made a handful of important discoveries in science and math during the Middle Ages.
     
    Such as? Serious question.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @PhysicistDave

  25. @inertial
    USA has an east-middle-west divergence.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    USA has an east-middle-west divergence.

    Or an East-middle-finger one.

    As they say, in NYC, “F.Y.!” really means “Have a nice day.”

    In LA, “Have a nice day” means “F.Y.!”

  26. @PhysicistDave
    @SunBakedSuburb

    SunBakedSuburb wrote to me:


    Ice People were intensely tribal before the Enlightenment kicked-in
     
    Actually, my understanding is that research shows that European, and especially English, family structure way back into the medieval period was less focused on the extended family than most other civilizations. And The Canterbury Tales and the Morte d'Arthur and the tales of Robin Hood all seem to protray a society in which it was natural for ordinary people to step outside their family and their village of birth and form wider loyalties and attachments.

    Europeans have had this strange combination of individualism and clubbishness for a very, very long time.

    SunBakedSuburb also asked:

    And wasn’t the European Enlightenment informed by the Muslim world?
     
    As I understand it, the Enlightenment thinkers were more interested in China than the Muslim world, but even that was largely a foil to critique their own society.

    Long before the Enlightenment, Muslim Civilization was in intellectual decline. Historians debate the central cause of this decline: The Mongol conquest of Baghdad in 1258? The rise of the Ash'arite philosophy, most notably al-Ghazali? Here is an interesting overview.

    Muslims made a handful of important discoveries in science and math during the Middle Ages. But, no, I do not think Muslim civilization was a significant inspiration for the Enlightenment.

    Western Europeans (and, in an even more exaggerated way, Americans) are weird compared to most human cultures (as also were the ancient Greeks). And it has enabled us to do some wonderful (and, yes, horrible) things.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @nebulafox, @anonymous coward, @Jim Don Bob

    There was a fashion in the Enlightennent of superficial (and, most definitely, Orientalist) contrarian embracing of the other, less from informed admiration and more to stick it to the Vatican, and normally containing ideas which would not survive in the (not really) adopted homeland: consider the Persian Letters or the thing where people as a joke were wearing pseudo-Arabian headgear.
    Also, let us finally ditch the Gavin Menzies fallacy: regardless of the origin of the ideas, it was the implementation and improvement which mattered. Eastern Europe never lost its connection to the Classical Greeks, never had a phase where they forgot what bathing was, and suffered an entirely too close connection to the Umma.

    • Agree: PhysicistDave
    • Replies: @nebulafox
    @J.Ross

    Κάντε το Βυζάντιο Μεγάλο και πάλι. :)

  27. 250 years ago, New Jersey was divided between “East Jersey” and “West Jersey”. Now it’s “North Jersey” and “South Jersey”. It’s the same line, just renamed.

    Manhattan Island is on the same ca. 45° slant as the Garden State. For some reason, the long way is seen as running north-south, and the narrow width east-west.

    But can you imagine the Upper West Side as the “Late North Side”, and the Lower East Side as the “Early South Side”? Ebbets Field was, at 40°39′54″, N 73°57′29″, about a mile farther west than the Polo Grounds at 40°49′51″, N 73°56′15″W and Yankee Stadium at 40°49′45″, N 73°55′35″W.

    Norway is much the same. The mainland runs from 58° to 71°N, but also from 5° to 31°E

    Then there are places that bend– California, British Columbia, Japan. Parker Dam on the Colorado is nearly due south of Utah’s western border. Nevada’s western border is farther west than Santa Barbara.

    What is east and west, north and south in Japan? The four main islands run 16° in one direction, 14 1/2° in the other. You can go north or west on land from Tokyo, but not south or east.

    • Replies: @Foreign Expert
    @Reg Cæsar

    Japan is psychologically divided between East and West. Kansai and Kanto. Sai means West and Tou means east.

  28. @PhysicistDave
    @SunBakedSuburb

    SunBakedSuburb wrote to me:


    Ice People were intensely tribal before the Enlightenment kicked-in
     
    Actually, my understanding is that research shows that European, and especially English, family structure way back into the medieval period was less focused on the extended family than most other civilizations. And The Canterbury Tales and the Morte d'Arthur and the tales of Robin Hood all seem to protray a society in which it was natural for ordinary people to step outside their family and their village of birth and form wider loyalties and attachments.

    Europeans have had this strange combination of individualism and clubbishness for a very, very long time.

    SunBakedSuburb also asked:

    And wasn’t the European Enlightenment informed by the Muslim world?
     
    As I understand it, the Enlightenment thinkers were more interested in China than the Muslim world, but even that was largely a foil to critique their own society.

    Long before the Enlightenment, Muslim Civilization was in intellectual decline. Historians debate the central cause of this decline: The Mongol conquest of Baghdad in 1258? The rise of the Ash'arite philosophy, most notably al-Ghazali? Here is an interesting overview.

    Muslims made a handful of important discoveries in science and math during the Middle Ages. But, no, I do not think Muslim civilization was a significant inspiration for the Enlightenment.

    Western Europeans (and, in an even more exaggerated way, Americans) are weird compared to most human cultures (as also were the ancient Greeks). And it has enabled us to do some wonderful (and, yes, horrible) things.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @nebulafox, @anonymous coward, @Jim Don Bob

    >Muslims made a handful of important discoveries in science and math during the Middle Ages. But, no, I do not think Muslim civilization was a significant inspiration for the Enlightenment.

    One thing that was interesting was Central Asia between 800 and 1200: there were significant breakthroughs in everything from mathematics to medicine. Baghdad gets all the press from the Islamophile types, but really, Central Asia was way more impressive during those 400 years. One guy predicted the existence of other planets: people were still getting burnt at the stake for the latter in the Europe for proposing that centuries later. Not bad for a region that became a total backwater afterwards.

    However, while the region would largely convert to Islam, the intellectual revolution that stemmed there did have pre-Muslim roots in the Persianate Zoroastrian culture that dominated the region. I’d chalk that up to the fact while that the Sassanids did undergo the same sort of state sponsored religious consolidation that post-Constantine Rome so glaringly did, it was never to the same extent (Persia was always more decentralized than Rome), and without the anti-intellectual fervor that took hold in Europe. I’d agree that the connection with the Western Enlightenment is, at best, tangential. It’s more of a sad lesson of how an area of the world so far ahead of the others can decline and ultimately collapse, not least because of self-satisfication and complacency toward rot at home. I’m proud to ultimately know Central Asia for more than it has become today: and I’d recommend people go visit the leftover buildings that still exist within Chinese borders before the CCP culturally vandalizes them all…

    Let that be a warning to the West. The Chinese aren’t making that mistake, they recently suffered the consequences of it in the broad scheme of history.

    S. Frederick Starr chalks up the intellectual decline to religious strife back in the Middle East that infected Central Asia. In this framework, al-Ghazali was a symptom of that, not the cause. The Mongols further jacked things up by bringing nothing less than the seeming apocalypse with them-as they did everywhere, Russia took many centuries to fully recover from that trauma, and much of the Middle East arguably never did-but Starr makes the point that the intellectual blooming period was coming to a close several decades before they arrived.

    Happy Saturnalia, Dave!

    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
    @nebulafox

    nebulafox wrote to me:


    Happy Saturnalia, Dave!
     
    Not to mention Happy Newton's Birthday (born December 25, 1642, Old Style).

    And to Christians and non-Christians alike: Merry Christmas!

    "Et in terra pax hominibus bonae voluntátis."
  29. Not having access to the whole article,

    See if your library system has access to academic databases (e.g. ProQuest). At least with some systems, as long as you have a library card/account you can access them from home.

  30. @Sean

    I’m uncertain whether this is saying that there is more ingroup differentiation nearer the equator (e.g., clannish Sicily vs. nationalist/universalist Sweden, fractious India vs. imperial China), which seems plausible.
     
    Absolutely. The Middle East would be the supreme example: Druza Yezdi and no doubt one or two other obscure dwindling sects no one has ever heard of. Sometimes though not often races of animals show greater differentiation at the borders of their territory with other races.

    Ukraine, which is 800 miles from east to west, is one country that has east-west problems. Germany also has had east-west divergence, in part because rivers in Germany tend to run from south to north, so the Rhine, for instance, created a fairly cohesive western Germany.
     
    I think what created the cohesiveness of Germany despite its political fragmentation into little princely states jealous of their rights was the Holy Roman Empire and trade. Germany was the first country with universal literacy across a substantial region. The French (and their protestant proxy Sweden) marched all over the German nation during the so called wars of religion , which were basically to prevent anyone especially Germans from establishing control over the vast potential manpower resources and wealth of the fragmented German nation (since Kissinger the US has pursues a similar policy against the Arabs, whose mass of the population the British separated from the oil wealth by the creation of the Gulf Statelets).

    Under Napoleon France took the German possessions west of the Rhine abolished the Holy Roman Empire and secularized many of its the free cities and principalities. Being fed up with the French made the West Germans less angry about the Prussian takeover, but these prosperous western areas maintained some distance and resisted being taxed by Berlin. The Weimar republic altered those arrangements and enabled far greeting tax raising powers for central government, which one reason when he inherited this new capacity to tax and exert more of Germany's potential strength Hitler was able to decisively defeat a major Powers such as Britain and France,and almost defeat the Soviet Union.


    https://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/2017/09/what-britain-needs-understand-about-profound-and-ancient-divisions-germany

    Why did Adenauer dislike the eastern Germans, think Berlin was expendable and consider the River Elbe to be the natural frontier? Simple: he knew that the Elbe was Germany’s Mason-Dixon line. Beyond it lay the flat, grim Prussian heartlands, which until 1945 stretched into present-day Russia. This vast region was known to Germans as “Ostelbien” – East Elbia. Adenauer viewed the “unification” of Germany in 1871 as East Elbia’s annexation of the west. That’s why in 1919, as mayor of Cologne, and again in 1923, he tried to get Britain and France to back a breakaway western German state. Having failed, he is said to have muttered, “Here we go, Asia again,” and closed the blinds every time his train crossed east over the Elbe. […]

    Since 1990, the former East Germany has received more than €2trn from the old West Germany, for a fast-ageing, shrinking and disproportionately male population of only 16 million, including Berlin. That’s the equivalent of a Greek bailout every year since 1990, and as a straight gift, not a loan. This represents a huge shift in financial priorities, overshadowing Germany’s annual net EU budget contribution (currently €15.5bn). In 1990, Kohl promised that western German aid would soon turn the new states into “blooming” areas, but they have become, instead, proof that age-old differences resist even the most gigantic subsidies.
     

    According to the late Robert Gayre, “the Elbe is a pronounced ethnographic frontier “. The further East you go the more testosteronised and broad faced the population are. Compare Swedes to Finns.

    One would expect the Arabs to become more cohesive and unified under US interventions but as with the abortive United Arab Republic and Nasser's 1962 invasion of Yemen foiled by off the books British, paid for the by the Saudis (Saddam's invasion of Kuwait was a larger sale re run ). The humiliation of 1967 was contributed to by the Egyptians concurrent engagement in Yemen . Anyway, it seems that Arabs have been too selected culturally and perhaps genetically for competition to be able to cooperate like Germans of north and south, Protestant and Catholic did. Yet. An invasion of Iran might do it though.

    Replies: @Neoconned, @Daniel H, @nebulafox, @jpp, @JohnPlywood, @obwandiyag

    I think Adenauer’s biggest achievement in power was to ensure that, however he felt about them in private, the 15 million or so ethnic Germans who came from east of the Oder-Neisse and from places like Romania or Czechoslovakia didn’t end up becoming a permanent underclass in postwar West Germany. That could have easily happened, though the Nazi years ironically also did a lot to eliminate regional distinctions: and to haul Germany into “modernity” in general.

    >Yet. An invasion of Iran might do it though.

    But hasn’t the religious distinction been far stronger than pan-Arab nationalism has been for many decades? Iraq’s basically ruled by Iranian puppets (good going Dubya), even before you get to Syria and Lebanon. Plenty of Iran-sympathizing Shi’ites in the eastern provinces of Saudi, too.

    • Replies: @Sean
    @nebulafox


    Roughly 3.6 million ethnic Germans moved to West Germany between 1950 and 1996. ... The flow of Aussiedler increased with the breakup of the Soviet Union. For instance, between 1992 and 2007, a total of 1,797,084 ethnic Germans from the former USSR emigrated to Germany
     
    I don't know that the German diaspora were ever likely to sink into an underclass. I have read the Germans from the east including the more recent ones from Russia are hard working and disciplined in a way that has become rare in their ancestral homeland.

    The more capable people migrate within their own country and emigrate to others. Interesting Adenauer was keen on repatriating German communities, as Hitler wanted to gather the German diaspora back from America. He toyed with the idea of swapping them for the Jews of Germany. Living space in the East was going to be required for the returning German-Americans. Brendan Simms has a new book on all this called Hitler: Only the World Was Enough. In Architects of Annihilation it says that the the Nazi race scientists thought the Aussiedler coming back to the newly enlarged Reich were physically Aryan specimens of better quality than the population of Germany. The real criteria for Germanisation of native middle class types in the conquered territories such as Estonia however was achievement orientation and a family pedigree showing sustained socio economic success and rise over many generations, not "one sided anthropological considerations".

    One could see Germany's leadership policy since the war as pursuing a subtle mercantilist form of Adolf Hitler's vision by trying to dominate Europe (EC) and use Russia as a supplier of natural resources (pipeline). The reverse flow of Germans from Russia is concomitant with Germany's loss of interest in Eastern Europe compared to China especially. The inflow of high quality Russian Germans, (plus Russian Jews, and even some Israeli ones) benefits Germany. Russia can afford the oil ect but not he loss of human capital I think. Stalin wanted Germans to teach his people work discipline.

    I see Iran as the Germany of the Middle East, it is too big and potentially powerful to be anything but a country to be feared, plus it has the Shia underclass in other countries as an equivalent to the Aussiedler that gave Germany the idea it could be heartland--master of the World Island. The Iranian co opting of Iraq would be the equivalent of Prussia unifying the German nation Westward. Pushing the analogy there would be a war as Iran neutralises its lesser enemy Saudi Arabia, then pivots to take a run at regional hegemony, which would mean conflict between Iran and Turkey in something similar to the Ottoman–Iranian Wars.
  31. @Sean

    I’m uncertain whether this is saying that there is more ingroup differentiation nearer the equator (e.g., clannish Sicily vs. nationalist/universalist Sweden, fractious India vs. imperial China), which seems plausible.
     
    Absolutely. The Middle East would be the supreme example: Druza Yezdi and no doubt one or two other obscure dwindling sects no one has ever heard of. Sometimes though not often races of animals show greater differentiation at the borders of their territory with other races.

    Ukraine, which is 800 miles from east to west, is one country that has east-west problems. Germany also has had east-west divergence, in part because rivers in Germany tend to run from south to north, so the Rhine, for instance, created a fairly cohesive western Germany.
     
    I think what created the cohesiveness of Germany despite its political fragmentation into little princely states jealous of their rights was the Holy Roman Empire and trade. Germany was the first country with universal literacy across a substantial region. The French (and their protestant proxy Sweden) marched all over the German nation during the so called wars of religion , which were basically to prevent anyone especially Germans from establishing control over the vast potential manpower resources and wealth of the fragmented German nation (since Kissinger the US has pursues a similar policy against the Arabs, whose mass of the population the British separated from the oil wealth by the creation of the Gulf Statelets).

    Under Napoleon France took the German possessions west of the Rhine abolished the Holy Roman Empire and secularized many of its the free cities and principalities. Being fed up with the French made the West Germans less angry about the Prussian takeover, but these prosperous western areas maintained some distance and resisted being taxed by Berlin. The Weimar republic altered those arrangements and enabled far greeting tax raising powers for central government, which one reason when he inherited this new capacity to tax and exert more of Germany's potential strength Hitler was able to decisively defeat a major Powers such as Britain and France,and almost defeat the Soviet Union.


    https://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/2017/09/what-britain-needs-understand-about-profound-and-ancient-divisions-germany

    Why did Adenauer dislike the eastern Germans, think Berlin was expendable and consider the River Elbe to be the natural frontier? Simple: he knew that the Elbe was Germany’s Mason-Dixon line. Beyond it lay the flat, grim Prussian heartlands, which until 1945 stretched into present-day Russia. This vast region was known to Germans as “Ostelbien” – East Elbia. Adenauer viewed the “unification” of Germany in 1871 as East Elbia’s annexation of the west. That’s why in 1919, as mayor of Cologne, and again in 1923, he tried to get Britain and France to back a breakaway western German state. Having failed, he is said to have muttered, “Here we go, Asia again,” and closed the blinds every time his train crossed east over the Elbe. […]

    Since 1990, the former East Germany has received more than €2trn from the old West Germany, for a fast-ageing, shrinking and disproportionately male population of only 16 million, including Berlin. That’s the equivalent of a Greek bailout every year since 1990, and as a straight gift, not a loan. This represents a huge shift in financial priorities, overshadowing Germany’s annual net EU budget contribution (currently €15.5bn). In 1990, Kohl promised that western German aid would soon turn the new states into “blooming” areas, but they have become, instead, proof that age-old differences resist even the most gigantic subsidies.
     

    According to the late Robert Gayre, “the Elbe is a pronounced ethnographic frontier “. The further East you go the more testosteronised and broad faced the population are. Compare Swedes to Finns.

    One would expect the Arabs to become more cohesive and unified under US interventions but as with the abortive United Arab Republic and Nasser's 1962 invasion of Yemen foiled by off the books British, paid for the by the Saudis (Saddam's invasion of Kuwait was a larger sale re run ). The humiliation of 1967 was contributed to by the Egyptians concurrent engagement in Yemen . Anyway, it seems that Arabs have been too selected culturally and perhaps genetically for competition to be able to cooperate like Germans of north and south, Protestant and Catholic did. Yet. An invasion of Iran might do it though.

    Replies: @Neoconned, @Daniel H, @nebulafox, @jpp, @JohnPlywood, @obwandiyag

    Great observation; I was just talking about this with a Lithuanian guy I drink with on Chicago’s south side. East of the Elbe, a lot of surnames and ethnic backgrounds that are on the surface for all immediate intents and purposes German actually have significant Baltic or Slavic or perhaps even, to a lesser extent, Finno Ugric, genealogical linkages. Recently rereading Mann’s Buddenbrooks made me think about this as well

    • Replies: @MBlanc46
    @jpp

    I was not aware of the geographical aspect, but I’ve been reading a lot of WWII history recently and was surprised at the number of non-Germanic names in the German Army.

    Replies: @The Alarmist

  32. @nebulafox
    @PhysicistDave

    >Muslims made a handful of important discoveries in science and math during the Middle Ages. But, no, I do not think Muslim civilization was a significant inspiration for the Enlightenment.

    One thing that was interesting was Central Asia between 800 and 1200: there were significant breakthroughs in everything from mathematics to medicine. Baghdad gets all the press from the Islamophile types, but really, Central Asia was way more impressive during those 400 years. One guy predicted the existence of other planets: people were still getting burnt at the stake for the latter in the Europe for proposing that centuries later. Not bad for a region that became a total backwater afterwards.

    However, while the region would largely convert to Islam, the intellectual revolution that stemmed there did have pre-Muslim roots in the Persianate Zoroastrian culture that dominated the region. I'd chalk that up to the fact while that the Sassanids did undergo the same sort of state sponsored religious consolidation that post-Constantine Rome so glaringly did, it was never to the same extent (Persia was always more decentralized than Rome), and without the anti-intellectual fervor that took hold in Europe. I'd agree that the connection with the Western Enlightenment is, at best, tangential. It's more of a sad lesson of how an area of the world so far ahead of the others can decline and ultimately collapse, not least because of self-satisfication and complacency toward rot at home. I'm proud to ultimately know Central Asia for more than it has become today: and I'd recommend people go visit the leftover buildings that still exist within Chinese borders before the CCP culturally vandalizes them all...

    Let that be a warning to the West. The Chinese aren't making that mistake, they recently suffered the consequences of it in the broad scheme of history.

    S. Frederick Starr chalks up the intellectual decline to religious strife back in the Middle East that infected Central Asia. In this framework, al-Ghazali was a symptom of that, not the cause. The Mongols further jacked things up by bringing nothing less than the seeming apocalypse with them-as they did everywhere, Russia took many centuries to fully recover from that trauma, and much of the Middle East arguably never did-but Starr makes the point that the intellectual blooming period was coming to a close several decades before they arrived.

    Happy Saturnalia, Dave!

    Replies: @PhysicistDave

    nebulafox wrote to me:

    Happy Saturnalia, Dave!

    Not to mention Happy Newton’s Birthday (born December 25, 1642, Old Style).

    And to Christians and non-Christians alike: Merry Christmas!

    “Et in terra pax hominibus bonae voluntátis.”

  33. @J.Ross
    @PhysicistDave

    There was a fashion in the Enlightennent of superficial (and, most definitely, Orientalist) contrarian embracing of the other, less from informed admiration and more to stick it to the Vatican, and normally containing ideas which would not survive in the (not really) adopted homeland: consider the Persian Letters or the thing where people as a joke were wearing pseudo-Arabian headgear.
    Also, let us finally ditch the Gavin Menzies fallacy: regardless of the origin of the ideas, it was the implementation and improvement which mattered. Eastern Europe never lost its connection to the Classical Greeks, never had a phase where they forgot what bathing was, and suffered an entirely too close connection to the Umma.

    Replies: @nebulafox

    Κάντε το Βυζάντιο Μεγάλο και πάλι. 🙂

  34. @Reg Cæsar
    250 years ago, New Jersey was divided between "East Jersey" and "West Jersey". Now it's "North Jersey" and "South Jersey". It's the same line, just renamed.


    Manhattan Island is on the same ca. 45° slant as the Garden State. For some reason, the long way is seen as running north-south, and the narrow width east-west.

    But can you imagine the Upper West Side as the "Late North Side", and the Lower East Side as the "Early South Side"? Ebbets Field was, at 40°39′54″, N 73°57′29″, about a mile farther west than the Polo Grounds at 40°49′51″, N 73°56′15″W and Yankee Stadium at 40°49′45″, N 73°55′35″W.

    Norway is much the same. The mainland runs from 58° to 71°N, but also from 5° to 31°E

    Then there are places that bend-- California, British Columbia, Japan. Parker Dam on the Colorado is nearly due south of Utah's western border. Nevada's western border is farther west than Santa Barbara.

    https://www.bestplaces.net/images/city/needles_ca.gif


    What is east and west, north and south in Japan? The four main islands run 16° in one direction, 14 1/2° in the other. You can go north or west on land from Tokyo, but not south or east.

    Replies: @Foreign Expert

    Japan is psychologically divided between East and West. Kansai and Kanto. Sai means West and Tou means east.

  35. @PhysicistDave
    @SunBakedSuburb

    SunBakedSuburb wrote to me:


    Ice People were intensely tribal before the Enlightenment kicked-in
     
    Actually, my understanding is that research shows that European, and especially English, family structure way back into the medieval period was less focused on the extended family than most other civilizations. And The Canterbury Tales and the Morte d'Arthur and the tales of Robin Hood all seem to protray a society in which it was natural for ordinary people to step outside their family and their village of birth and form wider loyalties and attachments.

    Europeans have had this strange combination of individualism and clubbishness for a very, very long time.

    SunBakedSuburb also asked:

    And wasn’t the European Enlightenment informed by the Muslim world?
     
    As I understand it, the Enlightenment thinkers were more interested in China than the Muslim world, but even that was largely a foil to critique their own society.

    Long before the Enlightenment, Muslim Civilization was in intellectual decline. Historians debate the central cause of this decline: The Mongol conquest of Baghdad in 1258? The rise of the Ash'arite philosophy, most notably al-Ghazali? Here is an interesting overview.

    Muslims made a handful of important discoveries in science and math during the Middle Ages. But, no, I do not think Muslim civilization was a significant inspiration for the Enlightenment.

    Western Europeans (and, in an even more exaggerated way, Americans) are weird compared to most human cultures (as also were the ancient Greeks). And it has enabled us to do some wonderful (and, yes, horrible) things.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @nebulafox, @anonymous coward, @Jim Don Bob

    Muslims made a handful of important discoveries in science and math during the Middle Ages.

    Persians, not ‘Muslims’. And the discoveries were made in spite of Islam, not because of it. Once the Muslims got to business for real on the Persians, the discoveries obviously stopped.

    • Replies: @MBlanc46
    @anonymous coward

    This is something that has to be continually repeated: Just because some has a Muslim name, he is not necessarily an Arab. Especially if he did something important.

  36. @Anon


    Not having access to the whole article

     

    Ask him for the PDF. His email is on his university's website.

    I've never been refused when asking for a copy of a paper.

    By the way, he's 79 years old, and a psychologist.

    Replies: @Pericles

    It appears he even provides the underlying dataset. A very helpful old fellow.

    https://dataverse.nl/dataset.xhtml?persistentId=hdl:10411/YXI7WH

  37. A rule of thumb is, ‘latitude binds us’, due to sharing climates.

  38. @Sean

    I’m uncertain whether this is saying that there is more ingroup differentiation nearer the equator (e.g., clannish Sicily vs. nationalist/universalist Sweden, fractious India vs. imperial China), which seems plausible.
     
    Absolutely. The Middle East would be the supreme example: Druza Yezdi and no doubt one or two other obscure dwindling sects no one has ever heard of. Sometimes though not often races of animals show greater differentiation at the borders of their territory with other races.

    Ukraine, which is 800 miles from east to west, is one country that has east-west problems. Germany also has had east-west divergence, in part because rivers in Germany tend to run from south to north, so the Rhine, for instance, created a fairly cohesive western Germany.
     
    I think what created the cohesiveness of Germany despite its political fragmentation into little princely states jealous of their rights was the Holy Roman Empire and trade. Germany was the first country with universal literacy across a substantial region. The French (and their protestant proxy Sweden) marched all over the German nation during the so called wars of religion , which were basically to prevent anyone especially Germans from establishing control over the vast potential manpower resources and wealth of the fragmented German nation (since Kissinger the US has pursues a similar policy against the Arabs, whose mass of the population the British separated from the oil wealth by the creation of the Gulf Statelets).

    Under Napoleon France took the German possessions west of the Rhine abolished the Holy Roman Empire and secularized many of its the free cities and principalities. Being fed up with the French made the West Germans less angry about the Prussian takeover, but these prosperous western areas maintained some distance and resisted being taxed by Berlin. The Weimar republic altered those arrangements and enabled far greeting tax raising powers for central government, which one reason when he inherited this new capacity to tax and exert more of Germany's potential strength Hitler was able to decisively defeat a major Powers such as Britain and France,and almost defeat the Soviet Union.


    https://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/2017/09/what-britain-needs-understand-about-profound-and-ancient-divisions-germany

    Why did Adenauer dislike the eastern Germans, think Berlin was expendable and consider the River Elbe to be the natural frontier? Simple: he knew that the Elbe was Germany’s Mason-Dixon line. Beyond it lay the flat, grim Prussian heartlands, which until 1945 stretched into present-day Russia. This vast region was known to Germans as “Ostelbien” – East Elbia. Adenauer viewed the “unification” of Germany in 1871 as East Elbia’s annexation of the west. That’s why in 1919, as mayor of Cologne, and again in 1923, he tried to get Britain and France to back a breakaway western German state. Having failed, he is said to have muttered, “Here we go, Asia again,” and closed the blinds every time his train crossed east over the Elbe. […]

    Since 1990, the former East Germany has received more than €2trn from the old West Germany, for a fast-ageing, shrinking and disproportionately male population of only 16 million, including Berlin. That’s the equivalent of a Greek bailout every year since 1990, and as a straight gift, not a loan. This represents a huge shift in financial priorities, overshadowing Germany’s annual net EU budget contribution (currently €15.5bn). In 1990, Kohl promised that western German aid would soon turn the new states into “blooming” areas, but they have become, instead, proof that age-old differences resist even the most gigantic subsidies.
     

    According to the late Robert Gayre, “the Elbe is a pronounced ethnographic frontier “. The further East you go the more testosteronised and broad faced the population are. Compare Swedes to Finns.

    One would expect the Arabs to become more cohesive and unified under US interventions but as with the abortive United Arab Republic and Nasser's 1962 invasion of Yemen foiled by off the books British, paid for the by the Saudis (Saddam's invasion of Kuwait was a larger sale re run ). The humiliation of 1967 was contributed to by the Egyptians concurrent engagement in Yemen . Anyway, it seems that Arabs have been too selected culturally and perhaps genetically for competition to be able to cooperate like Germans of north and south, Protestant and Catholic did. Yet. An invasion of Iran might do it though.

    Replies: @Neoconned, @Daniel H, @nebulafox, @jpp, @JohnPlywood, @obwandiyag

  39. @Grumpy
    Merry Christmas, Mr. Sailer. Thank you for all that you do.

    Replies: @obwandiyag

    Yes, thank you for teaching us that negroes are inferior and nothing else day in day out.

  40. @Sean

    I’m uncertain whether this is saying that there is more ingroup differentiation nearer the equator (e.g., clannish Sicily vs. nationalist/universalist Sweden, fractious India vs. imperial China), which seems plausible.
     
    Absolutely. The Middle East would be the supreme example: Druza Yezdi and no doubt one or two other obscure dwindling sects no one has ever heard of. Sometimes though not often races of animals show greater differentiation at the borders of their territory with other races.

    Ukraine, which is 800 miles from east to west, is one country that has east-west problems. Germany also has had east-west divergence, in part because rivers in Germany tend to run from south to north, so the Rhine, for instance, created a fairly cohesive western Germany.
     
    I think what created the cohesiveness of Germany despite its political fragmentation into little princely states jealous of their rights was the Holy Roman Empire and trade. Germany was the first country with universal literacy across a substantial region. The French (and their protestant proxy Sweden) marched all over the German nation during the so called wars of religion , which were basically to prevent anyone especially Germans from establishing control over the vast potential manpower resources and wealth of the fragmented German nation (since Kissinger the US has pursues a similar policy against the Arabs, whose mass of the population the British separated from the oil wealth by the creation of the Gulf Statelets).

    Under Napoleon France took the German possessions west of the Rhine abolished the Holy Roman Empire and secularized many of its the free cities and principalities. Being fed up with the French made the West Germans less angry about the Prussian takeover, but these prosperous western areas maintained some distance and resisted being taxed by Berlin. The Weimar republic altered those arrangements and enabled far greeting tax raising powers for central government, which one reason when he inherited this new capacity to tax and exert more of Germany's potential strength Hitler was able to decisively defeat a major Powers such as Britain and France,and almost defeat the Soviet Union.


    https://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/2017/09/what-britain-needs-understand-about-profound-and-ancient-divisions-germany

    Why did Adenauer dislike the eastern Germans, think Berlin was expendable and consider the River Elbe to be the natural frontier? Simple: he knew that the Elbe was Germany’s Mason-Dixon line. Beyond it lay the flat, grim Prussian heartlands, which until 1945 stretched into present-day Russia. This vast region was known to Germans as “Ostelbien” – East Elbia. Adenauer viewed the “unification” of Germany in 1871 as East Elbia’s annexation of the west. That’s why in 1919, as mayor of Cologne, and again in 1923, he tried to get Britain and France to back a breakaway western German state. Having failed, he is said to have muttered, “Here we go, Asia again,” and closed the blinds every time his train crossed east over the Elbe. […]

    Since 1990, the former East Germany has received more than €2trn from the old West Germany, for a fast-ageing, shrinking and disproportionately male population of only 16 million, including Berlin. That’s the equivalent of a Greek bailout every year since 1990, and as a straight gift, not a loan. This represents a huge shift in financial priorities, overshadowing Germany’s annual net EU budget contribution (currently €15.5bn). In 1990, Kohl promised that western German aid would soon turn the new states into “blooming” areas, but they have become, instead, proof that age-old differences resist even the most gigantic subsidies.
     

    According to the late Robert Gayre, “the Elbe is a pronounced ethnographic frontier “. The further East you go the more testosteronised and broad faced the population are. Compare Swedes to Finns.

    One would expect the Arabs to become more cohesive and unified under US interventions but as with the abortive United Arab Republic and Nasser's 1962 invasion of Yemen foiled by off the books British, paid for the by the Saudis (Saddam's invasion of Kuwait was a larger sale re run ). The humiliation of 1967 was contributed to by the Egyptians concurrent engagement in Yemen . Anyway, it seems that Arabs have been too selected culturally and perhaps genetically for competition to be able to cooperate like Germans of north and south, Protestant and Catholic did. Yet. An invasion of Iran might do it though.

    Replies: @Neoconned, @Daniel H, @nebulafox, @jpp, @JohnPlywood, @obwandiyag

    East Germany was better off under communism. As with everything. Ask Petra Kelly. Oh, wait. If you think that East Germany would have been better off as a separate, still communist state, then they kill you.

  41. @PhysicistDave
    @SunBakedSuburb

    SunBakedSuburb wrote to me:


    Ice People were intensely tribal before the Enlightenment kicked-in
     
    Actually, my understanding is that research shows that European, and especially English, family structure way back into the medieval period was less focused on the extended family than most other civilizations. And The Canterbury Tales and the Morte d'Arthur and the tales of Robin Hood all seem to protray a society in which it was natural for ordinary people to step outside their family and their village of birth and form wider loyalties and attachments.

    Europeans have had this strange combination of individualism and clubbishness for a very, very long time.

    SunBakedSuburb also asked:

    And wasn’t the European Enlightenment informed by the Muslim world?
     
    As I understand it, the Enlightenment thinkers were more interested in China than the Muslim world, but even that was largely a foil to critique their own society.

    Long before the Enlightenment, Muslim Civilization was in intellectual decline. Historians debate the central cause of this decline: The Mongol conquest of Baghdad in 1258? The rise of the Ash'arite philosophy, most notably al-Ghazali? Here is an interesting overview.

    Muslims made a handful of important discoveries in science and math during the Middle Ages. But, no, I do not think Muslim civilization was a significant inspiration for the Enlightenment.

    Western Europeans (and, in an even more exaggerated way, Americans) are weird compared to most human cultures (as also were the ancient Greeks). And it has enabled us to do some wonderful (and, yes, horrible) things.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @nebulafox, @anonymous coward, @Jim Don Bob

    Muslims made a handful of important discoveries in science and math during the Middle Ages.

    Such as? Serious question.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @Jim Don Bob

    The most famous is of course Al-Jabr, but you can find several in contemporary math history books which are at pains to highlight them for the usual reasons but haven’t fully succumbed yet to the corruption of other historical disciplines.

    , @PhysicistDave
    @Jim Don Bob

    Jim Don Bob asked me:


    Such as [Muslim discoveries in science and math in the Middle Ages]? Serious question.
     
    As Desiderius says, algebra is the usual answer. As I recall, they also did some work in optics and pre-chemistry. And of course the name of a number of stars (most of the ones starting with "Al") come from the Muslim world.

    Of course, the longer answer is that real science is not just labeling phenomena (as Lord Kelvin derisively said, "stamp collecting"). Real science is creating theories that tie together and explain a lot of different observations and that make novel predictions and stand up to novel observational tests.

    And, in that sense, science is really pretty much a product of Western Civilization.

    We should not denigrate the achievements of other civilizations: the Greeks really did create the axiomatic method and, specifically, Euclidean geometry, and that was a huge achievement.

    On the other hand, modern science and technology, symphonic music, and the huge improvement in human standards of living due to industrial capitalism are achievements of the West that are really without parallel. The funny thing is that the people denying or ignoring this are largely Westerners. Even non-Westerners who are critical of aspects of the West -- imperialism, social atomism, etc. -- are keenly, often obsessively, aware of the achievements of the West.

    To paraphrase Pericles, men will marvel at the West in future ages as men marvel at the West now.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @I Have Scinde

  42. Germany also has had east-west divergence, in part because rivers in Germany tend to run from south to north, so the Rhine, for instance, created a fairly cohesive western Germany.

    Only because you don’t speak German: There’s a world of difference between Prussians, Hessians, and Swabians.

  43. Just before reunification, I think, Milo Kundera had a piece in the NYRB arguing that the real division was Catholic Austria/Bavaria (think: Hitler) and Protestant rest of Germany, and that the only sensible division would reflect that kinda of L shape rather than East West or North South.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @James J. O'Meara


    Kundera had a piece in the NYRB arguing that the real division was Catholic Austria/Bavaria (think: Hitler) and Protestant rest of Germany
     
    The NSDAP did much better in the Protestant areas than in Bavaria or the similarly Catholic Rhineland.

    It was similar to the way both Trump and FDR bombed in their own parts of their state, while sweeping the other half.


    Catholics in black:


    https://exlaodicea.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/mapjpg.jpg?w=480&zoom=2


    National Socialists in black:


    https://exlaodicea.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/map1jpg.jpg?w=480&zoom=2

    Replies: @Cortes

  44. @Svevlad
    @PhysicistDave

    If you think about it, it's strange. You'd say that the northeners would be the "woke" ones and the southerners the individualists.

    Unless, the ice people initially appeared in a more pleasant climate conductive of indivisualism...

    Replies: @Desiderius

    Ice people are ice people because they got their asses kicked all the way to the ice.

    Now once they got there the lower margin for error got a lot of that Crooked Timber straightened out, but you’re not working with the best raw materials.

  45. @Jim Don Bob
    @PhysicistDave


    Muslims made a handful of important discoveries in science and math during the Middle Ages.
     
    Such as? Serious question.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @PhysicistDave

    The most famous is of course Al-Jabr, but you can find several in contemporary math history books which are at pains to highlight them for the usual reasons but haven’t fully succumbed yet to the corruption of other historical disciplines.

    • Agree: PhysicistDave
  46. @nebulafox
    @Sean

    I think Adenauer's biggest achievement in power was to ensure that, however he felt about them in private, the 15 million or so ethnic Germans who came from east of the Oder-Neisse and from places like Romania or Czechoslovakia didn't end up becoming a permanent underclass in postwar West Germany. That could have easily happened, though the Nazi years ironically also did a lot to eliminate regional distinctions: and to haul Germany into "modernity" in general.

    >Yet. An invasion of Iran might do it though.

    But hasn't the religious distinction been far stronger than pan-Arab nationalism has been for many decades? Iraq's basically ruled by Iranian puppets (good going Dubya), even before you get to Syria and Lebanon. Plenty of Iran-sympathizing Shi'ites in the eastern provinces of Saudi, too.

    Replies: @Sean

    Roughly 3.6 million ethnic Germans moved to West Germany between 1950 and 1996. … The flow of Aussiedler increased with the breakup of the Soviet Union. For instance, between 1992 and 2007, a total of 1,797,084 ethnic Germans from the former USSR emigrated to Germany

    I don’t know that the German diaspora were ever likely to sink into an underclass. I have read the Germans from the east including the more recent ones from Russia are hard working and disciplined in a way that has become rare in their ancestral homeland.

    The more capable people migrate within their own country and emigrate to others. Interesting Adenauer was keen on repatriating German communities, as Hitler wanted to gather the German diaspora back from America. He toyed with the idea of swapping them for the Jews of Germany. Living space in the East was going to be required for the returning German-Americans. Brendan Simms has a new book on all this called Hitler: Only the World Was Enough. In Architects of Annihilation it says that the the Nazi race scientists thought the Aussiedler coming back to the newly enlarged Reich were physically Aryan specimens of better quality than the population of Germany. The real criteria for Germanisation of native middle class types in the conquered territories such as Estonia however was achievement orientation and a family pedigree showing sustained socio economic success and rise over many generations, not “one sided anthropological considerations”.

    One could see Germany’s leadership policy since the war as pursuing a subtle mercantilist form of Adolf Hitler’s vision by trying to dominate Europe (EC) and use Russia as a supplier of natural resources (pipeline). The reverse flow of Germans from Russia is concomitant with Germany’s loss of interest in Eastern Europe compared to China especially. The inflow of high quality Russian Germans, (plus Russian Jews, and even some Israeli ones) benefits Germany. Russia can afford the oil ect but not he loss of human capital I think. Stalin wanted Germans to teach his people work discipline.

    I see Iran as the Germany of the Middle East, it is too big and potentially powerful to be anything but a country to be feared, plus it has the Shia underclass in other countries as an equivalent to the Aussiedler that gave Germany the idea it could be heartland–master of the World Island. The Iranian co opting of Iraq would be the equivalent of Prussia unifying the German nation Westward. Pushing the analogy there would be a war as Iran neutralises its lesser enemy Saudi Arabia, then pivots to take a run at regional hegemony, which would mean conflict between Iran and Turkey in something similar to the Ottoman–Iranian Wars.

  47. @Jim Don Bob
    @PhysicistDave


    Muslims made a handful of important discoveries in science and math during the Middle Ages.
     
    Such as? Serious question.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @PhysicistDave

    Jim Don Bob asked me:

    Such as [Muslim discoveries in science and math in the Middle Ages]? Serious question.

    As Desiderius says, algebra is the usual answer. As I recall, they also did some work in optics and pre-chemistry. And of course the name of a number of stars (most of the ones starting with “Al”) come from the Muslim world.

    Of course, the longer answer is that real science is not just labeling phenomena (as Lord Kelvin derisively said, “stamp collecting”). Real science is creating theories that tie together and explain a lot of different observations and that make novel predictions and stand up to novel observational tests.

    And, in that sense, science is really pretty much a product of Western Civilization.

    We should not denigrate the achievements of other civilizations: the Greeks really did create the axiomatic method and, specifically, Euclidean geometry, and that was a huge achievement.

    On the other hand, modern science and technology, symphonic music, and the huge improvement in human standards of living due to industrial capitalism are achievements of the West that are really without parallel. The funny thing is that the people denying or ignoring this are largely Westerners. Even non-Westerners who are critical of aspects of the West — imperialism, social atomism, etc. — are keenly, often obsessively, aware of the achievements of the West.

    To paraphrase Pericles, men will marvel at the West in future ages as men marvel at the West now.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @PhysicistDave

    And even in astronomy, the Muslims were standing on the shoulders of those demon-worshipping giants, the Babylonians. Babylonian achievements in prediction and calculation really are amazing

    Replies: @PhysicistDave

    , @I Have Scinde
    @PhysicistDave

    PhysicistDave (and Desiderius),

    Was algebra an Arab or Muslim invention? I ask entirely honestly, I do not know. Here is what Gibbon said on the matter (Chapter 52, More Conquests by the Arabs):

    "But the ancient geometry, if I am not misinformed, was resumed in the same state by the Italians of the fifteenth century; and whatever may be the origin of the name, the science of algebra is ascribed to the Grecian Diophantus by the modest testimony of the Arabs themselves."

    [ Abulpharagius, Dynast. p. 81, 222. Bibliot. Arab. Hisp. tom. i. p. 370, 371. In quem (says the primate of the Jacobites) si immiserit selector, oceanum hoc in genere (algebrae) inveniet. The time of Diophantus of Alexandria is unknown; but his six books are still extant, and have been illustrated by the Greek Planudes and the Frenchman Meziriac, (Fabric. Bibliot. Graec. tom. iv. p. 12-15.)]

    I am sure there has been scholarship on the matter since the 1780s, so I am prepared to believe Gibbon may have been wrong. I could look at Wikipedia, but frankly I distrust it as a source.

    Ultimately, this is a silly academic question of no higher purpose. But I think that is true of most questions I think about.

    Replies: @PhysicistDave

  48. @PhysicistDave
    @Jim Don Bob

    Jim Don Bob asked me:


    Such as [Muslim discoveries in science and math in the Middle Ages]? Serious question.
     
    As Desiderius says, algebra is the usual answer. As I recall, they also did some work in optics and pre-chemistry. And of course the name of a number of stars (most of the ones starting with "Al") come from the Muslim world.

    Of course, the longer answer is that real science is not just labeling phenomena (as Lord Kelvin derisively said, "stamp collecting"). Real science is creating theories that tie together and explain a lot of different observations and that make novel predictions and stand up to novel observational tests.

    And, in that sense, science is really pretty much a product of Western Civilization.

    We should not denigrate the achievements of other civilizations: the Greeks really did create the axiomatic method and, specifically, Euclidean geometry, and that was a huge achievement.

    On the other hand, modern science and technology, symphonic music, and the huge improvement in human standards of living due to industrial capitalism are achievements of the West that are really without parallel. The funny thing is that the people denying or ignoring this are largely Westerners. Even non-Westerners who are critical of aspects of the West -- imperialism, social atomism, etc. -- are keenly, often obsessively, aware of the achievements of the West.

    To paraphrase Pericles, men will marvel at the West in future ages as men marvel at the West now.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @I Have Scinde

    And even in astronomy, the Muslims were standing on the shoulders of those demon-worshipping giants, the Babylonians. Babylonian achievements in prediction and calculation really are amazing

    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
    @J.Ross

    J. Ross wrote to me:


    And even in astronomy, the Muslims were standing on the shoulders of those demon-worshipping giants, the Babylonians. Babylonian achievements in prediction and calculation really are amazing
     
    Sure, and the Indians invented the zero and the Chinese invented the compass, and so on.

    Understanding the nature of the universe we live in is an ongoing project for the entire human race, and it would be wrong to denigrate the achievements of other civilizations. I think that was a real danger even in the mid-twentieth century when I was a kid.

    However, today, the opposite error seems more prevalent: as important as the work of our predecessors was, almost all of the non-obvious facts we know today about the nature of reality were discovered by Westerners in the last five centuries. Arguably, most of that was discovered since 1900, again overwhelmingly by Westerners (with help from a handful of non-Westerners: Bose, Yang and Lee, Chern, Salam, etc.).

    That is stunning. Lots of people are still alive who were in the first generation to learn that the universe is expanding, that neutrons exist (and can produce nuclear chain reactions), that the double helix of DNA holds the information of heredity, that quasars and pulsars exist, that there are planet outside the Solar System, that the continents really do move, and so much more.

    We all get so wrapped up in the minutiae of political and cultural conflict that I fear that we too rarely reflect on the unique time in human history in which we live.
  49. @James J. O'Meara
    Just before reunification, I think, Milo Kundera had a piece in the NYRB arguing that the real division was Catholic Austria/Bavaria (think: Hitler) and Protestant rest of Germany, and that the only sensible division would reflect that kinda of L shape rather than East West or North South.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Kundera had a piece in the NYRB arguing that the real division was Catholic Austria/Bavaria (think: Hitler) and Protestant rest of Germany

    The NSDAP did much better in the Protestant areas than in Bavaria or the similarly Catholic Rhineland.

    It was similar to the way both Trump and FDR bombed in their own parts of their state, while sweeping the other half.

    Catholics in black:

    National Socialists in black:

    • Replies: @Cortes
    @Reg Cæsar

    Which matches the claim by Haffner in his memoir:

    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/65458.Defying_Hitler

  50. @jpp
    @Sean

    Great observation; I was just talking about this with a Lithuanian guy I drink with on Chicago's south side. East of the Elbe, a lot of surnames and ethnic backgrounds that are on the surface for all immediate intents and purposes German actually have significant Baltic or Slavic or perhaps even, to a lesser extent, Finno Ugric, genealogical linkages. Recently rereading Mann's Buddenbrooks made me think about this as well

    Replies: @MBlanc46

    I was not aware of the geographical aspect, but I’ve been reading a lot of WWII history recently and was surprised at the number of non-Germanic names in the German Army.

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    @MBlanc46


    I’ve been reading a lot of WWII history recently and was surprised at the number of non-Germanic names in the German Army.
     
    Do a bit of digging, and you'll find a surprising number of partial-Jews scattered among the German General Staff and Admiralty. A few even in the SS. Admiral Raeder was known to have resisted pressure from Hitler to fire a number of Jewish Kriegsmarine officers.
  51. @anonymous coward
    @PhysicistDave


    Muslims made a handful of important discoveries in science and math during the Middle Ages.
     
    Persians, not 'Muslims'. And the discoveries were made in spite of Islam, not because of it. Once the Muslims got to business for real on the Persians, the discoveries obviously stopped.

    Replies: @MBlanc46

    This is something that has to be continually repeated: Just because some has a Muslim name, he is not necessarily an Arab. Especially if he did something important.

  52. @MBlanc46
    @jpp

    I was not aware of the geographical aspect, but I’ve been reading a lot of WWII history recently and was surprised at the number of non-Germanic names in the German Army.

    Replies: @The Alarmist

    I’ve been reading a lot of WWII history recently and was surprised at the number of non-Germanic names in the German Army.

    Do a bit of digging, and you’ll find a surprising number of partial-Jews scattered among the German General Staff and Admiralty. A few even in the SS. Admiral Raeder was known to have resisted pressure from Hitler to fire a number of Jewish Kriegsmarine officers.

  53. @Reg Cæsar
    @James J. O'Meara


    Kundera had a piece in the NYRB arguing that the real division was Catholic Austria/Bavaria (think: Hitler) and Protestant rest of Germany
     
    The NSDAP did much better in the Protestant areas than in Bavaria or the similarly Catholic Rhineland.

    It was similar to the way both Trump and FDR bombed in their own parts of their state, while sweeping the other half.


    Catholics in black:


    https://exlaodicea.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/mapjpg.jpg?w=480&zoom=2


    National Socialists in black:


    https://exlaodicea.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/map1jpg.jpg?w=480&zoom=2

    Replies: @Cortes

    Which matches the claim by Haffner in his memoir:

    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/65458.Defying_Hitler

  54. Historically the North-South differentiation always trumped the East-West. Civilization arose among the Sun People of the global south, while the northerners living in frigid climes were always the barbarians. This was true all around the planet from the Americas to Europe to Persia to India to China….

  55. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occasionalism
    The doctrine first reached prominence in the Islamic theological schools of Iraq, especially in Basra. […]
    In a 1978 article in Studia Islamica, Lenn Goodman asks the question, “Did Al-Ghazâlî Deny Causality?”[3] and demonstrates that Ghazali did not deny the existence of observed, “worldly” causation. According to Goodman’s analysis, Ghazali does not claim that there is never any link between observed cause and observed effect: rather, Ghazali argues that there is no necessary link between observed cause and effect.

    Similar to Hume’s philosophy.

    The Greatest Persian Thinker was Rumi

    In his poem, “The Importance of Gourdcrafting,” Rumi vividly describes the sexual interactions between a woman and a donkey

    Similar to a Tijuana street scammer.

    http://evoandproud.blogspot.com/2019/12/weird-people.html Northwest Europeans are more individualistic, less loyal to kin, and more trusting of strangers. […]

    The direction of causality may thus run in the other direction. The WEMP does not exist because the Western Church diverged from the Eastern Church on the issue of consanguineous marriage. Rather, this divergence arose because the Western Church was assimilating the behavioral norms of its newly converted peoples, including the WEMP. By the eighth century, those peoples were dominant within the Western Church and able to push Christian practice in certain directions, particularly postponement of marriage and marriage outside the kin group (Frost 2017). The tail began to wag the dog.

    The dramatic East–West divergences are between countries such as between France and Germany, or Germany and Russia. East to West the societies differ in ethos, although they are comparable in technological level. North to South the levels are so different there is conquest and colonisation of the South rather than war with it.

  56. @Bert
    The abstract appears to say that xenophobia is more intense in human groups that live at lower latitudes. If so, then this research has important implications regarding the advisability of permitting third world immigration. What sane country would allow immigrants who will see themselves as the enemies of the host population.

    The abstract implies that a causal analysis was conducted, which might imply that the demonstrated latitudinal difference is evolutionarily based. Calling Kevin MacDonald.

    Replies: @Drake

    What sane country would allow immigrants who will see themselves as the enemies of the host population.

    This is the simplest and most effective argument against immigration.

    Immigrants tend to be prejudiced against the native people and their culture.

  57. @J.Ross
    @PhysicistDave

    And even in astronomy, the Muslims were standing on the shoulders of those demon-worshipping giants, the Babylonians. Babylonian achievements in prediction and calculation really are amazing

    Replies: @PhysicistDave

    J. Ross wrote to me:

    And even in astronomy, the Muslims were standing on the shoulders of those demon-worshipping giants, the Babylonians. Babylonian achievements in prediction and calculation really are amazing

    Sure, and the Indians invented the zero and the Chinese invented the compass, and so on.

    Understanding the nature of the universe we live in is an ongoing project for the entire human race, and it would be wrong to denigrate the achievements of other civilizations. I think that was a real danger even in the mid-twentieth century when I was a kid.

    However, today, the opposite error seems more prevalent: as important as the work of our predecessors was, almost all of the non-obvious facts we know today about the nature of reality were discovered by Westerners in the last five centuries. Arguably, most of that was discovered since 1900, again overwhelmingly by Westerners (with help from a handful of non-Westerners: Bose, Yang and Lee, Chern, Salam, etc.).

    That is stunning. Lots of people are still alive who were in the first generation to learn that the universe is expanding, that neutrons exist (and can produce nuclear chain reactions), that the double helix of DNA holds the information of heredity, that quasars and pulsars exist, that there are planet outside the Solar System, that the continents really do move, and so much more.

    We all get so wrapped up in the minutiae of political and cultural conflict that I fear that we too rarely reflect on the unique time in human history in which we live.

  58. @PhysicistDave
    @Jim Don Bob

    Jim Don Bob asked me:


    Such as [Muslim discoveries in science and math in the Middle Ages]? Serious question.
     
    As Desiderius says, algebra is the usual answer. As I recall, they also did some work in optics and pre-chemistry. And of course the name of a number of stars (most of the ones starting with "Al") come from the Muslim world.

    Of course, the longer answer is that real science is not just labeling phenomena (as Lord Kelvin derisively said, "stamp collecting"). Real science is creating theories that tie together and explain a lot of different observations and that make novel predictions and stand up to novel observational tests.

    And, in that sense, science is really pretty much a product of Western Civilization.

    We should not denigrate the achievements of other civilizations: the Greeks really did create the axiomatic method and, specifically, Euclidean geometry, and that was a huge achievement.

    On the other hand, modern science and technology, symphonic music, and the huge improvement in human standards of living due to industrial capitalism are achievements of the West that are really without parallel. The funny thing is that the people denying or ignoring this are largely Westerners. Even non-Westerners who are critical of aspects of the West -- imperialism, social atomism, etc. -- are keenly, often obsessively, aware of the achievements of the West.

    To paraphrase Pericles, men will marvel at the West in future ages as men marvel at the West now.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @I Have Scinde

    PhysicistDave (and Desiderius),

    Was algebra an Arab or Muslim invention? I ask entirely honestly, I do not know. Here is what Gibbon said on the matter (Chapter 52, More Conquests by the Arabs):

    “But the ancient geometry, if I am not misinformed, was resumed in the same state by the Italians of the fifteenth century; and whatever may be the origin of the name, the science of algebra is ascribed to the Grecian Diophantus by the modest testimony of the Arabs themselves.”

    [ Abulpharagius, Dynast. p. 81, 222. Bibliot. Arab. Hisp. tom. i. p. 370, 371. In quem (says the primate of the Jacobites) si immiserit selector, oceanum hoc in genere (algebrae) inveniet. The time of Diophantus of Alexandria is unknown; but his six books are still extant, and have been illustrated by the Greek Planudes and the Frenchman Meziriac, (Fabric. Bibliot. Graec. tom. iv. p. 12-15.)]

    I am sure there has been scholarship on the matter since the 1780s, so I am prepared to believe Gibbon may have been wrong. I could look at Wikipedia, but frankly I distrust it as a source.

    Ultimately, this is a silly academic question of no higher purpose. But I think that is true of most questions I think about.

    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
    @I Have Scinde

    I Have Scinde asked:


    Was algebra an Arab or Muslim invention? I ask entirely honestly
     
    Well, I think it is a matter of definition.

    Even in the 1500s, when the solutions to the cubic and quartic were worked out, the discoverers explained everything largely in words! And, yet, that was indisputably algebra (try working out the solution formulas for the cubic and the quartic for yourself: I actually did it once for the cubic, but I still have to look at the books for the quartic -- and I can use modern algebraic notation).

    Modern algebraic notation evolved during the late sixteenth and early seventeenth century: François Viète is often singled out for credit.

    I'd consider Diophantus more of a number theorist than an algebraist, though it is debatable.

    Whoever wrote the Wikipedia article knows a lot more than I do on the subject, so you might glance at that. I think your conclusion will be "Well, it depends.."

    IHS also wrote:

    Ultimately, this is a silly academic question of no higher purpose. But I think that is true of most questions I think about.
     
    Ah, but "silly academic questions" led to radio, transistors, and a lot of very unsilly results!

    Part of the great success of the West is a very large number of people (largely, though not exclusively, male) willing to scratch their heads over apparently "silly academic questions." Usually the answers were unimportant, but sometimes they changed the world.

    So, I think the activity should be encouraged.

    All the best,

    Dave
  59. @I Have Scinde
    @PhysicistDave

    PhysicistDave (and Desiderius),

    Was algebra an Arab or Muslim invention? I ask entirely honestly, I do not know. Here is what Gibbon said on the matter (Chapter 52, More Conquests by the Arabs):

    "But the ancient geometry, if I am not misinformed, was resumed in the same state by the Italians of the fifteenth century; and whatever may be the origin of the name, the science of algebra is ascribed to the Grecian Diophantus by the modest testimony of the Arabs themselves."

    [ Abulpharagius, Dynast. p. 81, 222. Bibliot. Arab. Hisp. tom. i. p. 370, 371. In quem (says the primate of the Jacobites) si immiserit selector, oceanum hoc in genere (algebrae) inveniet. The time of Diophantus of Alexandria is unknown; but his six books are still extant, and have been illustrated by the Greek Planudes and the Frenchman Meziriac, (Fabric. Bibliot. Graec. tom. iv. p. 12-15.)]

    I am sure there has been scholarship on the matter since the 1780s, so I am prepared to believe Gibbon may have been wrong. I could look at Wikipedia, but frankly I distrust it as a source.

    Ultimately, this is a silly academic question of no higher purpose. But I think that is true of most questions I think about.

    Replies: @PhysicistDave

    I Have Scinde asked:

    Was algebra an Arab or Muslim invention? I ask entirely honestly

    Well, I think it is a matter of definition.

    Even in the 1500s, when the solutions to the cubic and quartic were worked out, the discoverers explained everything largely in words! And, yet, that was indisputably algebra (try working out the solution formulas for the cubic and the quartic for yourself: I actually did it once for the cubic, but I still have to look at the books for the quartic — and I can use modern algebraic notation).

    Modern algebraic notation evolved during the late sixteenth and early seventeenth century: François Viète is often singled out for credit.

    I’d consider Diophantus more of a number theorist than an algebraist, though it is debatable.

    Whoever wrote the Wikipedia article knows a lot more than I do on the subject, so you might glance at that. I think your conclusion will be “Well, it depends..”

    IHS also wrote:

    Ultimately, this is a silly academic question of no higher purpose. But I think that is true of most questions I think about.

    Ah, but “silly academic questions” led to radio, transistors, and a lot of very unsilly results!

    Part of the great success of the West is a very large number of people (largely, though not exclusively, male) willing to scratch their heads over apparently “silly academic questions.” Usually the answers were unimportant, but sometimes they changed the world.

    So, I think the activity should be encouraged.

    All the best,

    Dave

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