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From the Times of Israel:
Norman Podhoretz, the last remaining ‘anti-anti Trump’ neoconservative
The former editor of Commentary says he has ‘no admiration’ for Trump, but deems him the ‘lesser evil’ compared to Clinton
BY ERIC CORTELLESSA September 7, 2016, 6:45 pm 41
WASHINGTON — Throughout Donald Trump’s improbable rise to the Republican nomination, self-proclaimed Jewish neocons have mostly responded aghast. From William Kristol and Robert Kagan to Joshua Muravchik and Max Boot, the notion of a President Trump has been more than a little too much to bear.
Kristol has worked incessantly to recruit an alternative to run as an independent candidate; Kagan wrote an op-ed in The Washington Post saying Trump is bringing fascism to America; both Muravchik and Boot have said they plan to vote for Hillary Clinton; and Boot has insisted that Trump killed the Republican Party.
And yet, one of the intellectual godfathers of neoconservatism disagrees with all of them. When it comes to this roller coaster of a presidential election and the man who continues to confound virtually all of the political class, Norman Podhoretz is not exactly Pollyanna, but he does think the choice is easy, and that the vast majority of his ideological descendants are making a mistake by not embracing the GOP nominee.
“Many of the younger — they’re not so young anymore — neoconservatives have gone over to the Never Trump movement. And they are extremely angry with anybody who doesn’t share their view,” he recently told The Times of Israel. “But I describe myself as anti-anti Trump. While I have no great admiration for him, to put it mildly, I think she’s worse. Between the two, he’s the lesser evil.”
It’s mostly because the elder Podhoretz thinks the Democrats are moving inevitably toward being anti-Israel, while Trump is more of a wild card with pro-Israel instincts. But maybe Podhoretz senior has other reasons too?
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Trump is moving out ahead in the polls and many of the #NeverTrumpers are realizing this game of musical chairs will quickly be coming to an end and they will be left standing holding their ….
I get no joy out of NeoCons supporting Trump. I’ve actually been hoping Trump would at least ponder the possibility of allowing some of the architects of the Iraq War to be extradited to The Hague for war crimes trials. No military of course, only civilian leadership. It would be great fun to start making lists of the #NeverTrumpsters who would be eligible for a one-way ticket to the an International Tribunal for the Iraq War.
Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, Michael Ledeen, David Frum, Robert Kagan, Bill Kristol, Max Boot, Charles Krauthammer, this could be a real all-star cast of NeoCons in the dock.
George W. Bush would have to be there. Colin Powell as well although his recent emails about Bill Clinton’s activities with bimbos may get him off the hook.
Dick Cheney is supporting Trump so perhaps he can get exculpated due to his ill health.
I think Norman is probably wrong – the Democrat base is anti-Israel but this isn’t allowed to affect elite policy. I guess the Death of the West will be bad for Israel but that won’t be for several decades. Maybe he’s just farsighted.
According to prominent alt-right insiders, Trump has confided in them privately and promised to them to “finish off” the Jews once in office.
I always did think that Norm Podhoretz and his comrade Irving Kristol were a bit brighter than the younger generation of neocons — if Norm and Irv were often wrong, at least they sometimes had something interesting to say.
The younger neocons, not so much.
Regression to the mean, I suppose.
Dave Miller in Sacramento
Israel? OK. But at age 86 Norman Podhoretz has a longer and firmer perspective than the younger, flighty neos you mention. For decades he has seen politicos come and go. He knows how horrible the grifter Clintons are and that Hillary is simply not an option for a rational human being. Norman Podhoretz knows how horrible Obama is and that Hillary with be Obama’s third term. Hillary stated this many times by proclaiming she will sign an instant immigration amnesty within 100 days of her inauguration. Passed through Congress in coordination with her favorite cuck-Republican, House Speaker Paul Ryan.
That started as a lame hashtag (Goldfish targeting) effort…#neverpayattention and morphed into voices in your head…
No Trump, what “many people tell you” are just the voices in your head.
http://crooksandliars.com/2016/08/cnn-investigates-trumps-many-people
At one time we had wisdom, but little knowledge. Now we have a great deal of knowledge, but do we have enough wisdom to deal with that knowledge?
Jonas Salk
The road to the White House goes through Moscow.
10. How did the Russian mob boss who ran a criminal organization out of Trump Tower get a VIP pass to your Miss Universe pageant in Moscow?
http://crooksandliars.com/2016/09/clinton-campaign-tweets-20-questions-trump
I’m a politician which means I’m a crook and a liar. When I’m not kissing babies, I’m stealing their lolipops. But I keep my options open. Red October is coming.
I think it’s more than Israel, since Hillary would be as pro-Israel as Trump. I suspect that Norman Podhortez despises Hillary’s LGBT and feminist agenda (in the 80s and 90s, Commentary had a lot of pieces attacking the gays and feminists). In the past, Podhortez Sr. has also been outspoken about black crime (calling it our “dirty little secret”), so he could also be concerned about the “Black Lives Matter” racket.
http://www.vdare.com/articles/podhoretz-junior-vs-steve-sailer
https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/how-the-gay-rights-movement-won/
https://www.thenation.com/article/some-jews-gays/
But they didn't do anything about what they noticed for the next 40-50 years. Instead, they fought for the impossible colorblind society and called Dems the Real Racists, while Political Correctness terrorized the nation. They even managed to murder God knows how many innocent brown people on the other side of the world without doing one damn thing to solve the race problem over here.
NPod probably sees that the Jewish people have reached the optimal point and that increasing diversity will yield negative marginal returns for the Jewish people.Replies: @Steve Sailer
We need as many lesser of 2 evils votes for Donald Trump as possible. Ronald Reagan said my 80 percent friend is not my 20 percent enemy. I would rather vote for a politician who I disagree with on 20 percent of the issues than vote for a politician I disagree with on 100 percent of the issues or at least disagree with on a majority of the issues.
Yes, and their historic English twins, the Labour party, are already there. There is a Muslim mayor of London and in Parliament there is a bizarre situation where ultra-leftists and Muslims had a grassroots revolt against the philo-semite Labour elite in imposing Jeremy Corbyn, an extremely pro-Islam communist, as leader of the opposition, leading to the party’s meltdown.
It is pretty hard situations for Americans to grok, as we never really have had a substantial communist or Islamist faction to our major parties, the closest thing was Henry Wallace and that was a long time ago.
If
- group A are 50% of a district but only 40% of them vote = 20%
- group B are 20% of a district but 100% vote (and all the same way) = 20%
then courting group B votes becomes 2x as important.
A Hillary win should illustrate the effect quite rapidly.
Most Jews vote based on “social justice” here in the US. Israel is not half as important for them as people make it out to be.
(actually more of a cline with a dividing line and a lot of overlap)
but effectively two factions.
Obama was more aligned to the non-neocon side and Hillary more the other way (maybe partly due to the Saudi funding and partly due to Huma's erotic talents ).
Many wise guy ((()))) posters here believe that 100% of American Jews are in telepathic oneness with 100% of Israeli Jews. That this trans-oceanic (((()))) oneness evil/cynically promotes open borders in America and closed borders for Jews only Israel. Multiculti dystopia for America and mono-religion cohesion for Israel. I am exaggerating for fun.... but this is how it is.Replies: @Dissident
I suspect it’s about maintaining influence in the event of a Trump victory.
Now that polling is starting to turn Trump's way, will Adelson actually follow through and contribute?
It’s natural that in a conversation with an Israeli newspaper, Podhoretz would focus on our Presidential race’s implications for Israel.
And in any event, his rationale is about more than just Israel:
Podhoretz was able to dump the Commies and become a Reaganite. Rejecting the establishment Republicans’ view on Trump is just the newest evidence that the man can think for himself.
Yes but most Jews aren’t neocons
But what if this promise to prominent alt-right insiders conflicts with Trump’s other promise to them to clone Harambe?
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/replace-warlike-bald-eagle-symbol-green-frog-peace
He’s going to pay off his Alt Right supporters by replacing the Bald Eagle with the Green Frog of Justice:
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/replace-warlike-bald-eagle-symbol-green-frog-peace
They haven’t really had to choose so far in the US. They could get their multikulti cake (for the US) and eat it (and have ethno-nationalism instead; for Israel) all the time. Both candidates are still pro-Israel, so they still don’t really have to choose.
Trump better not welch on that promise. We of the alt-right expect an officer corps of cloned Harambes to lead us to victory!
The pressure on the refusenik republicans is becoming immense.
Hillary, who began bad, is becoming awful. Donald, who began erratically, has grown into a consummate campaigner. And much harder to fake, he seems like a decent guy.
People are watching his speeches and thinking… what was it I didn’t like about him? Oh, who cares?
That is changing the frame.
And those arch neo cons are still standing in the corner in the worst possible company.
They will jump before too long. They have a lot to lose if Trump wins and they find themselves on the wrong side of history.
He will still have his gay Nazi bodybuilders to put down any internal revolt.
It is pretty hard situations for Americans to grok, as we never really have had a substantial communist or Islamist faction to our major parties, the closest thing was Henry Wallace and that was a long time ago.Replies: @Anonymous Nephew, @anon
Corbyn, a guy I have zero time for, is neither anti-Israel nor extremely pro-Islam IMHO (I’ll accept he’s extremely anti-British).
He’s simply not “100% on board with Israel no matter what”, which has been the default position of both UK parties for the last few decades (both parties chief fundraisers were Jewish – Lords Levy and Feldman for Blair and Cameron).
He thinks the Palestinians have had a bit of a rough deal over the last 75 years, which is at least an arguable position – and it is this which makes him “anti-Israel”. Mind you, the official Labour ideology is that immigrants to the UK who get a hard time from the locals are perfectly entitled to defend themselves and fight back – which it can be argued is all that Jews in Israel have been doing since the 1930s.
The position of both UK parties is so "100% on board with Israel no matter what" that MPs voted 274-12 to recognize Palestine as a state in direct contravention of the Oslo accords to *punish* Israel for not committing suicide fast enough.
Corbyn, on the other hand, can fairly be described as someone who is obsessed with Israel beyond anything remotely normal for someone not personally connected to the issue in any way.
https://www.google.co.il/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=corbyn+palestine&tbm=vid&start=0Replies: @Anonymous Nephew, @Anonymous Nephew
I stand with Norman lol. I don’t particularly care for Trump but compared to Clinton and the merry band of loons she’d usher in to finish out Obama’s dirty work, it’s no contest.
I get no joy out of NeoCons supporting Trump. I've actually been hoping Trump would at least ponder the possibility of allowing some of the architects of the Iraq War to be extradited to The Hague for war crimes trials. No military of course, only civilian leadership. It would be great fun to start making lists of the #NeverTrumpsters who would be eligible for a one-way ticket to the an International Tribunal for the Iraq War.
Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, Michael Ledeen, David Frum, Robert Kagan, Bill Kristol, Max Boot, Charles Krauthammer, this could be a real all-star cast of NeoCons in the dock.
George W. Bush would have to be there. Colin Powell as well although his recent emails about Bill Clinton's activities with bimbos may get him off the hook.
Dick Cheney is supporting Trump so perhaps he can get exculpated due to his ill health.Replies: @The Alarmist, @antipater_1, @The Millennial Falcon, @guest
Should’t they do it in Nuremburg for PR purposes?
In other words, Donald Trump is going to bomb Iran.
POTUS Trump just might end up being indicted for war crimes.
Complete bullshit as usual from the isteve intifada brigade.
The position of both UK parties is so “100% on board with Israel no matter what” that MPs voted 274-12 to recognize Palestine as a state in direct contravention of the Oslo accords to *punish* Israel for not committing suicide fast enough.
Corbyn, on the other hand, can fairly be described as someone who is obsessed with Israel beyond anything remotely normal for someone not personally connected to the issue in any way.
https://www.google.co.il/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=corbyn+palestine&tbm=vid&start=0
(I've not followed your link, but I suspect that googling "Corbyn" and "Israel" will return a lot of stuff like the "he didn't mention Israel once!" Michael Foster hysterics.)Replies: @Gabriel M
Oh no, does this mean shabbos goy numero uno, Charles Murray, will have to get in line??
I’m glad what might be good for America didn’t muddy his thinking.
POTUS Trump just might end up being indicted for war crimes.Replies: @Anonymous
I would say Trump is the least likely of any politician in D.C., save for Rand Paul and John Duncan, to get us into a stupid and needless military conflict.
The position of both UK parties is so "100% on board with Israel no matter what" that MPs voted 274-12 to recognize Palestine as a state in direct contravention of the Oslo accords to *punish* Israel for not committing suicide fast enough.
Corbyn, on the other hand, can fairly be described as someone who is obsessed with Israel beyond anything remotely normal for someone not personally connected to the issue in any way.
https://www.google.co.il/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=corbyn+palestine&tbm=vid&start=0Replies: @Anonymous Nephew, @Anonymous Nephew
I’ll take your “intifada brigade” and raise you a “hasbara brigade”, if you want to get personal.
When I describe the position of UK parties as “100% on board with Israel no matter what” I mean that whatever Israel does in the region, the most that will happen in the UK governing circle (whoever’s in power) will be “expressions of concern” and “calls for restraint”.
“MPs voted 274-12 to recognize Palestine as a state” – OMG, they’ve practically signed the Hamas Charter ! Could you give me the name of the British Ambassador to the Palestinian State?
(I’ve not followed your link, but I suspect that googling “Corbyn” and “Israel” will return a lot of stuff like the “he didn’t mention Israel once!” Michael Foster hysterics.)
Of course, if you define shouting your head off at the "AL Quds Day" rally to a crowd of leering Pakis as just what any neutral non-weirdo observer would do, then I suppose that this seems to you like something an extreme pro-Israel zioimperialist would write.William Hague, then Foreign Secretary, and obvious zionist stooge, stating the perfectly reasonable claim that Palestine is "highest priority" in the world evah.Replies: @anon, @Hippopotamusdrome
I get no joy out of NeoCons supporting Trump. I've actually been hoping Trump would at least ponder the possibility of allowing some of the architects of the Iraq War to be extradited to The Hague for war crimes trials. No military of course, only civilian leadership. It would be great fun to start making lists of the #NeverTrumpsters who would be eligible for a one-way ticket to the an International Tribunal for the Iraq War.
Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, Michael Ledeen, David Frum, Robert Kagan, Bill Kristol, Max Boot, Charles Krauthammer, this could be a real all-star cast of NeoCons in the dock.
George W. Bush would have to be there. Colin Powell as well although his recent emails about Bill Clinton's activities with bimbos may get him off the hook.
Dick Cheney is supporting Trump so perhaps he can get exculpated due to his ill health.Replies: @The Alarmist, @antipater_1, @The Millennial Falcon, @guest
It would be better to have them extradited to Baghdad. They would be much more likely to swing.
The position of both UK parties is so "100% on board with Israel no matter what" that MPs voted 274-12 to recognize Palestine as a state in direct contravention of the Oslo accords to *punish* Israel for not committing suicide fast enough.
Corbyn, on the other hand, can fairly be described as someone who is obsessed with Israel beyond anything remotely normal for someone not personally connected to the issue in any way.
https://www.google.co.il/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=corbyn+palestine&tbm=vid&start=0Replies: @Anonymous Nephew, @Anonymous Nephew
Michael Foster – “You are either with them, or you are labelled as being against them”
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3739516/Why-despise-Jeremy-Corbyn-Nazi-stormtroopers-Jewish-Labour-donor-MICHAEL-FOSTER.html
He’s talking about Corbyn and his supporters, but that sounds awfully like GabrielM’s response to me.
Steve
Off-topic..maybe not…
Last night on the Military Channel :Dr. Lynne Nusbacher in a red dress…red lipstick…rouge….earnings…..formely Dr. Avery Nusbacher(former instructor of Princes William and Harry).
I thought I was watching a re-run of an old Monty Python show…
(I've not followed your link, but I suspect that googling "Corbyn" and "Israel" will return a lot of stuff like the "he didn't mention Israel once!" Michael Foster hysterics.)Replies: @Gabriel M
OK, so when I call you a dimwit, don’t get offended because I really just mean you like roast beef.
Of course, if you define shouting your head off at the “AL Quds Day” rally to a crowd of leering Pakis as just what any neutral non-weirdo observer would do, then I suppose that this seems to you like something an extreme pro-Israel zioimperialist would write.
William Hague, then Foreign Secretary, and obvious zionist stooge, stating the perfectly reasonable claim that Palestine is “highest priority” in the world evah.
This is the inherent conflict that has been lurking under water since the beginning between those who want to Islamize Europe for revenge, paranoia, Moorish "golden age" or whatever other reason and the more Israel-focused lobby.
So (imo) Anonymous Nephew's view was correct for a long time but it is starting to change dramatically now.Replies: @Gabriel M
William Hague warns of Iran threat to peace of the worldHague refuses to rule out full-scale invasion in Syria as he blames Assad for Damascus gas attack
William Hague pledges to push Poland on Holocaust restitutionReplies: @Gabriel M
If you read the Elder Pods various biographies, he had a transformative experience serving in the military that explains his greater affection for ordinary Trump voters. Lesser Pod has never ventured outside of Manhattan.
And the elder Pod seems to have had a significantly different set of life experiences growing up in Brooklyn than his son did in Manhattan. It is impossible for to imagine the younger Pod ever to have written something like the following (and actually from Norman Pod's "liberal" phase):
https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/my-negro-problem-and-ours/
Hillary, who began bad, is becoming awful. Donald, who began erratically, has grown into a consummate campaigner. And much harder to fake, he seems like a decent guy.
People are watching his speeches and thinking... what was it I didn't like about him? Oh, who cares?
That is changing the frame.
And those arch neo cons are still standing in the corner in the worst possible company.
They will jump before too long. They have a lot to lose if Trump wins and they find themselves on the wrong side of history.Replies: @Harry Baldwin
Neoconservatism has no actual constituency besides the donor class and Fox News, yet it has been in control of the GOP for 30 years now. The election of Trump would reveal neoconservatism to be a movement without followers, which is why they’re so freaked out about it. They accuse Trump of hijacking the party, while in fact he is wresting control of it from the hijackers.
Yes, it is probably about maintaining influence. That is one of the reasons I thought Adelson said he was going to back Trump with up to $100 million back in May when it was obvious Trump would be the GOP nominee.
Now that polling is starting to turn Trump’s way, will Adelson actually follow through and contribute?
I know these precincts are supposed to be cesspools of anti-Semitism, but I have to say that my own reaction over the period I’ve been steeped in them is, rather to my surprise, more sympathy with Israel.
I can’t help but see that many of the sorts of problems plaguing Israel are akin to, and more extreme forms of, those besetting the US. In certain limited respects, Israel serves as the avant garde for testing out various demographic strategies and possibilities.
On the other hand, I still do very much believe that the interests of the US and Israel have to be forcefully distinguished. Israel must make its own way in the world. The US itself has much to gain, and little to lose, by leaving Israel to its own, quite formidable, devices.
I get no joy out of NeoCons supporting Trump. I've actually been hoping Trump would at least ponder the possibility of allowing some of the architects of the Iraq War to be extradited to The Hague for war crimes trials. No military of course, only civilian leadership. It would be great fun to start making lists of the #NeverTrumpsters who would be eligible for a one-way ticket to the an International Tribunal for the Iraq War.
Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, Michael Ledeen, David Frum, Robert Kagan, Bill Kristol, Max Boot, Charles Krauthammer, this could be a real all-star cast of NeoCons in the dock.
George W. Bush would have to be there. Colin Powell as well although his recent emails about Bill Clinton's activities with bimbos may get him off the hook.
Dick Cheney is supporting Trump so perhaps he can get exculpated due to his ill health.Replies: @The Alarmist, @antipater_1, @The Millennial Falcon, @guest
Trump had Cheney at “torture.”
Pro-Israel, yes, but Trump will be much more pro-Israeli-right than cankles. But I agree, I don’t think Israel is what would make a neokahn support Trump over Clinton. I think that would be down to a bit of actual conservatism (and bet-hedging, as Dave P points out). Hence the 50:1 neokahn break for Clinton vs. Trump.
When the entire political class is slavishly pro-Israel, the issue obviously tends to fade into the background. The princess isn’t worried about having enough mattresses; she’s worried about that pea.
AN, I’ll help you with this: somewhere over the Atlantic, this message gets transcribed as, “anti-Israel.”
We Inner Party Sailerites would be the officer corps of the Harambe troops, dumkopf.
Does that include his half*-Jewish, Jewish-identified* grandchildren?
(*Ivanka’s “conversion” was clearly a sham, performed for obvious reasons of convenience— not conviction— by rabbis who have no credibility among the serious, authentic Orthodox.)
It might be that he’s picking up Trump’s strong anti-Iran signals — “biggest state sponsor of terrorism” — and dreaming of war. (Can we put the neo-cons out to pasture, for God’s sake?) Trump’s anti-Iran comments seem inconsistent with the known threat of ISIS, and their funders in SA, Turkey, and Qatar. But Israel fears Iran and so Trump, a staunch ally, must shoehorn Iran into the crosshairs.
The younger neocons, not so much.
Regression to the mean, I suppose.
Dave Miller in SacramentoReplies: @Dissident, @guest
“a bit brighter”?
I think that quite an understatement. On the latest Radio Derb, John Derbyshire quoted David Goldman/”Spengler” on the striking intellectual contrast between father and son– both in the case of Norman vs. John Podhoretz as well as in that of Irving vs. William Kristol. I recall Steve Sailer commenting to the same effect as well.
Two factions
(actually more of a cline with a dividing line and a lot of overlap)
but effectively two factions.
Obama was more aligned to the non-neocon side and Hillary more the other way (maybe partly due to the Saudi funding and partly due to Huma’s erotic talents ).
I want a full gorilla-riding cavalry division.
http://www.vdare.com/articles/podhoretz-junior-vs-steve-sailer
https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/how-the-gay-rights-movement-won/
https://www.thenation.com/article/some-jews-gays/Replies: @The Millennial Falcon, @guest, @Broski
Yep. Podhoretz, Sr. defies the interventionism-uber-alles stereotype of neoconservatism.
That Vidal article is something else. Sort of like a lefty gay male version of Ann Coulter dedicated to Making America Greco-Roman Again, with a giant bath in place of the wall.
It is pretty hard situations for Americans to grok, as we never really have had a substantial communist or Islamist faction to our major parties, the closest thing was Henry Wallace and that was a long time ago.Replies: @Anonymous Nephew, @anon
One factor is clannish populations tend to block-vote so their votes become disproportionately influential.
If
– group A are 50% of a district but only 40% of them vote = 20%
– group B are 20% of a district but 100% vote (and all the same way) = 20%
then courting group B votes becomes 2x as important.
A Hillary win should illustrate the effect quite rapidly.
Some of the neocons in addition to the elder Podhoretz realize Trump may win.
Of course, if you define shouting your head off at the "AL Quds Day" rally to a crowd of leering Pakis as just what any neutral non-weirdo observer would do, then I suppose that this seems to you like something an extreme pro-Israel zioimperialist would write.William Hague, then Foreign Secretary, and obvious zionist stooge, stating the perfectly reasonable claim that Palestine is "highest priority" in the world evah.Replies: @anon, @Hippopotamusdrome
Regarding Israel things have changed quite dramatically in the UK since Blair opened the borders as the Muslim vote is now critical for the Labour party – same with Hollande’s party in France.
This is the inherent conflict that has been lurking under water since the beginning between those who want to Islamize Europe for revenge, paranoia, Moorish “golden age” or whatever other reason and the more Israel-focused lobby.
So (imo) Anonymous Nephew’s view was correct for a long time but it is starting to change dramatically now.
Arguably, the injection of theological Islamic anti-Semitism into the debate may have arrested matters somewhat, because, whatever Anonymous Nephew' might say, ordinary British people who have learned to swallow gay marriage and whatever else the Cathederal has thrown at them, still think it's bloody weird to show up at a rally with people shouting about bringing Allah's vengeance upon the unbeliever.
Neocons has two major constituencies among rank-and-file.
1. Old guard anti-Communist Cold Warriors, the kind of people for whom it’s always 1980 and Reagan is forever young.
2. Hard-line anti-Muslims and other people who worry about Muslim terrorism. However, I get an impression that this group had been abandoning the neocons lately.
* Military veterans/families (not all of them, but a very substantial portion)
* White-collar Evangelicals (Rubio's base)
It does seem that some of the Iraq War planners could be charged (and convicted) of “Crimes Against Peace”. Consider this:
The Allies maintained (perhaps for the first time in history; now they are stuck with the precedent they have made) that the defendants were guilty of “planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression”. Please see Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, v. 38, issue 5, “Crimes Against Peace” by Franz B. Schick (LLB, Law School of Vienna), 1948 : “It was solemnly emphasized by the Allied Prosecution moreover, that the rules created by the Charter [of the International Military Tribunal] must, in the future, apply equally to the nationals of the victorious Powers.”
The Germans, in particular, will be interested to know whether the Americans were really sincere all along.
When rats are fleeing the sinking ship, it means we’ll be undergoing a regime change. The old Nomenklatura is as dead as Hillary.
Harambe supports all tribes without discrimination….
I get no joy out of NeoCons supporting Trump. I've actually been hoping Trump would at least ponder the possibility of allowing some of the architects of the Iraq War to be extradited to The Hague for war crimes trials. No military of course, only civilian leadership. It would be great fun to start making lists of the #NeverTrumpsters who would be eligible for a one-way ticket to the an International Tribunal for the Iraq War.
Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, Michael Ledeen, David Frum, Robert Kagan, Bill Kristol, Max Boot, Charles Krauthammer, this could be a real all-star cast of NeoCons in the dock.
George W. Bush would have to be there. Colin Powell as well although his recent emails about Bill Clinton's activities with bimbos may get him off the hook.
Dick Cheney is supporting Trump so perhaps he can get exculpated due to his ill health.Replies: @The Alarmist, @antipater_1, @The Millennial Falcon, @guest
Trump would lose my faith in him as an anti-globalist should he join in the farce that is the World Court.
According to my sources inside the Clinton camp she promised to finish off the Jews, too. So it’s a push.
The younger neocons, not so much.
Regression to the mean, I suppose.
Dave Miller in SacramentoReplies: @Dissident, @guest
Regression to the mean doesn’t make sense in this case, unless we’re talking about Podhoretz and Kristol’
http://www.vdare.com/articles/podhoretz-junior-vs-steve-sailer
https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/how-the-gay-rights-movement-won/
https://www.thenation.com/article/some-jews-gays/Replies: @The Millennial Falcon, @guest, @Broski
Yes, I remember the “mugged by reality” stories. Neocons once upon a time were liberals who noticed vibrancy and came over to the other side. Or rather, they pulled the other side over to them.
But they didn’t do anything about what they noticed for the next 40-50 years. Instead, they fought for the impossible colorblind society and called Dems the Real Racists, while Political Correctness terrorized the nation. They even managed to murder God knows how many innocent brown people on the other side of the world without doing one damn thing to solve the race problem over here.
Norman Podhoretz thinks several decades ahead, and then some.
http://www.vdare.com/articles/podhoretz-junior-vs-steve-sailer
https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/how-the-gay-rights-movement-won/
https://www.thenation.com/article/some-jews-gays/Replies: @The Millennial Falcon, @guest, @Broski
Assume that neocon enthusiasm for open borders derives from the proposition that a diverse society will be much harder to organize into a society focused on exterminating the Jews. At the same time, a homogenous white society provides the best labor and economic background for Jews to prosper as a minority. There will be tension, therefore, between wanting to increase diversity in countries where the diaspora resides and wanting to retain a well behaved, economically productive host population of Europeans. An optimal point of balance between diversity and useful host peoples will exist, under this scenario.
NPod probably sees that the Jewish people have reached the optimal point and that increasing diversity will yield negative marginal returns for the Jewish people.
NPod probably sees that the Jewish people have reached the optimal point and that increasing diversity will yield negative marginal returns for the Jewish people.Replies: @Steve Sailer
“NPod probably sees that the Jewish people have reached the optimal point and that increasing diversity will yield negative marginal returns for the Jewish people.”
A highly sensible and sophisticated conclusion to reach, if true.
Neocons want to bring millions of them to the West so yeah.
You should read Pink Triangle and Yellow Star and The Empire Lovers Strike Back. Vidal goes after these people with a blowtorch.
And if you read the post-mortem attacks by the neo-cons on Vidal, just about everyone I read accused him of racism for calling attention to the tribal masochism of Europe/West vis-a-vis mass immigration.
Far from being mutually exclusive, I find the two categories you described quite compatible with each other.
“fleeing”? Was Norman Podhoretz ever a Hillary supporter?
What about the second part of the header, “JPod even more irate than usual”? I don’t see anything about that.
Israel has passed the test? Did it have to parallel park?
Of course, the moral calculus behind these disparate decisions is the same. The old man is just vastly more intelligent.
He’s a great example of the downsides of nepotism.
Neoconservatism was spawned in late 60s and early 70s precisely when the international left turned against Israel and supported the Palestinians.
Fleeing the neocon ship, that is. Weren’t neocon “nevertrumpers” ready to vote for Hillary?
They are diverging though. A lot of the second category now now supports Trump, whereas almost no one from the first category does.
I think that Israel passed the fend-for-itself test by demonstrating excellent parallel parking skills and adding in several hundred nukes.
We could note just as much that India and Pakistan aren't part of the treaty regime either, but a Trump defeat would bring these uncomfortable problems to the surface. The neocons should ruefully consider what they have done, apologize, and support Trump, and some have. Should he lose, it would be their fault along with the Mormons, and I will be forming "Conservatives for BDS".Replies: @Dissident
From the article:
It is a major third rail to note that Sen. Charles Schumer is a notorious gun banner, but has no problems with unregulated Israeli nukes.
We could note just as much that India and Pakistan aren’t part of the treaty regime either, but a Trump defeat would bring these uncomfortable problems to the surface. The neocons should ruefully consider what they have done, apologize, and support Trump, and some have. Should he lose, it would be their fault along with the Mormons, and I will be forming “Conservatives for BDS”.
As someone mentioned earlier, jpod is evidence of reversion to the mean.
Of course, if you define shouting your head off at the "AL Quds Day" rally to a crowd of leering Pakis as just what any neutral non-weirdo observer would do, then I suppose that this seems to you like something an extreme pro-Israel zioimperialist would write.William Hague, then Foreign Secretary, and obvious zionist stooge, stating the perfectly reasonable claim that Palestine is "highest priority" in the world evah.Replies: @anon, @Hippopotamusdrome
I don’t think that makes him anti-semitic or even ant-Israel. He also said these:
William Hague warns of Iran threat to peace of the world
Hague refuses to rule out full-scale invasion in Syria as he blames Assad for Damascus gas attack
William Hague pledges to push Poland on Holocaust restitution
True from what I have seen and heard. When you count the younger generations and all the (diluted) half-Jews from mixed marriages that are around these days. I would say 50% of Jews and half Jews are in disconnect with Israel and don’t want to hear about Israel. They have other matters on their mind and Israel gets no priority.
Many wise guy ((()))) posters here believe that 100% of American Jews are in telepathic oneness with 100% of Israeli Jews. That this trans-oceanic (((()))) oneness evil/cynically promotes open borders in America and closed borders for Jews only Israel. Multiculti dystopia for America and mono-religion cohesion for Israel. I am exaggerating for fun…. but this is how it is.
welsh but clever anyway
Also:
* Military veterans/families (not all of them, but a very substantial portion)
* White-collar Evangelicals (Rubio’s base)
William Hague warns of Iran threat to peace of the worldHague refuses to rule out full-scale invasion in Syria as he blames Assad for Damascus gas attack
William Hague pledges to push Poland on Holocaust restitutionReplies: @Gabriel M
I never said William Hague was anti-Israel, let alone anti-semitic, I said it is laughably untrue to claim that mainstream British politicians “are 100% on board with Israel no matter what”. But this is what you always get with Israel-“critics”, wildly outlandish statements, followed by changing the subject:
50% of internet debate about Israel could just be replaced with that and lose nothing of interest.
This is the inherent conflict that has been lurking under water since the beginning between those who want to Islamize Europe for revenge, paranoia, Moorish "golden age" or whatever other reason and the more Israel-focused lobby.
So (imo) Anonymous Nephew's view was correct for a long time but it is starting to change dramatically now.Replies: @Gabriel M
It’s probably true that Muslim immigration has speeded up matters, but it has not changed the basic dyamic. Pro-Palestinian politics became very popular in the British far Left in the early 1970s; from then on it was basically just a matter of time before it spread, first to the centre Left, then the centre, then the centre Right, then everyone allowed in polite company.
Arguably, the injection of theological Islamic anti-Semitism into the debate may have arrested matters somewhat, because, whatever Anonymous Nephew’ might say, ordinary British people who have learned to swallow gay marriage and whatever else the Cathederal has thrown at them, still think it’s bloody weird to show up at a rally with people shouting about bringing Allah’s vengeance upon the unbeliever.
For the Jews, its always one calculation: Whats good for the Jews? Regardless of country (except Israel). The only calculation here is which candidate will benefit Israel/Jewry more. There is zero loyalty to the U.S. or the Republican party. In this case, the calculation is that neo-cons may be marginalized if they vote for the losing horse. They hate Trump for not wanting to destabilize Syria, but want to remain relevant for the future.
We could note just as much that India and Pakistan aren't part of the treaty regime either, but a Trump defeat would bring these uncomfortable problems to the surface. The neocons should ruefully consider what they have done, apologize, and support Trump, and some have. Should he lose, it would be their fault along with the Mormons, and I will be forming "Conservatives for BDS".Replies: @Dissident
Do you believe BDS is legitimate, just and warranted?
If you do, then shouldn’t you be supporting it now?
If you do not, then how could you support it merely as a means of revenge?
I do find that the neoconservatives are devoted more to the security of Israel, than to the demographic continuity of conservatism in the West.
For me, its not about revenge, its about creating a threat to Israel from the right, which could force the neocons and center-left Jews into accommodation with the various nationalist movements. They need to understand that the guarantor of Israeli security are Western Christians, a deracinated Western society will not eliminate Anti-Semitism from any quarters, if anything it will increase it many times over.
Pithy revenge in the Middle East would be very far down my list of concerns, should a permanent leftist majority take power this November.Replies: @Dissident
Indeed.
And the elder Pod seems to have had a significantly different set of life experiences growing up in Brooklyn than his son did in Manhattan. It is impossible for to imagine the younger Pod ever to have written something like the following (and actually from Norman Pod’s “liberal” phase):
https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/my-negro-problem-and-ours/
Many wise guy ((()))) posters here believe that 100% of American Jews are in telepathic oneness with 100% of Israeli Jews. That this trans-oceanic (((()))) oneness evil/cynically promotes open borders in America and closed borders for Jews only Israel. Multiculti dystopia for America and mono-religion cohesion for Israel. I am exaggerating for fun.... but this is how it is.Replies: @Dissident
The reality would appear to be, overwhelmingly, that Jews are assumed to be at least Zionist and, if not Zionist, then certainly Cultural Marxist/ SJW. As a Jew is who is emphatically none of those, this is painful.
Thank you, now I get it.
Thank you. I had not read the full Times of Israel article, only the excerpt that Mr. Sailer quoted.
Having now read the full article, I must add that I could not find anywhere within it– including in the excerpt that you quoted for me– any actual evidence of Norman Podhoretz’s son, John (“JPod”), being “irate”– at all, much less more so “than usual”– with his father Norman for the latter’s endorsement of Trump.
(Lest anyone suspect me of being partial to JPod, let me note that is not at all the case. I am far from being any type of neocon.)
I don’t find the BDS cause persuasive in the least.
I do find that the neoconservatives are devoted more to the security of Israel, than to the demographic continuity of conservatism in the West.
For me, its not about revenge, its about creating a threat to Israel from the right, which could force the neocons and center-left Jews into accommodation with the various nationalist movements. They need to understand that the guarantor of Israeli security are Western Christians, a deracinated Western society will not eliminate Anti-Semitism from any quarters, if anything it will increase it many times over.
Pithy revenge in the Middle East would be very far down my list of concerns, should a permanent leftist majority take power this November.
I would also point-out, adding to what you wrote, that the threats to Jews posed-by leftist policies are by no means limited-to those that are particularly (whether intentionally or otherwise) anti-Jewish, per se. Jews, even when not specifically targeted as such, are no less vulnerable to such threats as Jihadi terrorism or street crime-- whether perpetrated by (American) blacks or immigrants-- than anyone else.
I do find that the neoconservatives are devoted more to the security of Israel, than to the demographic continuity of conservatism in the West.
For me, its not about revenge, its about creating a threat to Israel from the right, which could force the neocons and center-left Jews into accommodation with the various nationalist movements. They need to understand that the guarantor of Israeli security are Western Christians, a deracinated Western society will not eliminate Anti-Semitism from any quarters, if anything it will increase it many times over.
Pithy revenge in the Middle East would be very far down my list of concerns, should a permanent leftist majority take power this November.Replies: @Dissident
Thank you for clarifying.
Let me note that I, a non-Zionist Jew, find that deplorable.
I would also point-out, adding to what you wrote, that the threats to Jews posed-by leftist policies are by no means limited-to those that are particularly (whether intentionally or otherwise) anti-Jewish, per se. Jews, even when not specifically targeted as such, are no less vulnerable to such threats as Jihadi terrorism or street crime– whether perpetrated by (American) blacks or immigrants– than anyone else.