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Nord Stream Theories, Day 2
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The Washington Post website pushes its follow-up story on the the sabotage of three of the four Nord Stream gas pipelines from Russia to Germany way down the site. This rather dull article more or less assumes the Russians Dun It but devotes much of its moderate length to analyzing the methane release from a global warming standpoint (which is minor):

E.U. warns of ‘robust’ response against sabotage after Nord Stream blasts

By Meg Kelly and Michael Birnbaum
Updated September 28, 2022 at 5:48 p.m. EDT

BERLIN — European policymakers pointed Wednesday to sabotage as they launched investigations into breaches of three major underwater natural gas pipelines in the Baltic Sea, blasts that experts said could result in the largest-ever single release of methane into the atmosphere from the energy sector.

… Though investigations into the simultaneous leaks in the Nord Stream pipelines have only just started, sabotage appears the most likely cause, policymakers said. Many blamed Russia, which is waging a war in Ukraine and has been using energy supplies to Europe as leverage against the continent.

“There is reason to be concerned about the security situation in the Baltic Sea region,” [Danish Defense Minister] Bodskov said in a statement after meetings at NATO. “Russia has a significant military presence in the Baltic Sea region, and we expect them to continue their saber rattling.”

Some politicians said they believed the explosions were a threat. “These incidents show that energy infrastructure is not safe,” Viktorija Cmilyte-Nielsen, speaker of Lithuania’s Parliament, told a local radio station on Wednesday. “It can be interpreted as a warning.” …

It was not immediately clear how European nations would respond. One European official, speaking on the condition of anonymity to offer a candid assessment, said proof is needed before imposing sanctions, “and for proof you need to have an investigation,” which takes time.

Sanctions are not the only option open to bloc. Its responses could range from accelerating a cutoff of Russian energy deliveries to sending patrol boats into the Baltic Sea to help bolster pipeline security, the official said.

But opposition from some E.U. governments could make punitive action difficult, said Federico Santi, a Europe analyst with the Eurasia Group. “It seems the sabotage was designed to limit the scope for retaliation,” he noted. …

Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov labeled accusations that his country was behind the explosions as “predictably stupid” and “absurd.” He told reporters on a call that Russia has no interest in damaging the pipelines — which are majority-owned Russian entities — because of the high value of the gas.

Peskov also suggested the U.S. government was behind the blasts, pointing to President Biden’s comment in February that “there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2” if Russia invaded Ukraine.

A U.S. official, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss a sensitive matter, said the United States had nothing to do with the attack on the Nord Stream pipelines, calling the idea “preposterous.”

And then some more about global warming.

So if the Washington Post is channeling the American deep state’s views, it would appear from this that the deep state was more or less caught by surprise, would like you to blame the Russians, but doesn’t have much evidence for doing that and doesn’t (yet) have terribly persuasive arguments for why the Russians would blow up their own strategic assets other than that they’re Russians so they are always doing stuff that doesn’t make any sense. Mostly, it appears Washington insiders would appear to prefer to shuffle this story off the front page.

Today’s New York Times coverage is more interesting and free-ranging.

Sabotaged Pipelines and a Mystery: Who Did It? (Was It Russia?)

An attack on gas lines under the Baltic Sea exposes the vulnerability of an already jittery Europe. Some officials suggested Moscow was to blame, but with little evidence, others urge caution.

By Katrin Bennhold and David E. Sanger
Sept. 28, 2022

BERLIN — … But the central mystery remains: Who did it?

“All available information indicates those leaks are the result of a deliberate act,” the European Union’s foreign policy chief, Josep Borrell Fontelles, said in a statement on Wednesday. “We will support any investigation aimed at getting full clarity on what happened and why.”

Jake Sullivan, President Biden’s national security adviser, called the episode “apparent sabotage.”

But with little evidence to go on — American officials said that explosive gas pouring from the broken pipes made it too dangerous to get close to the breach — the United States and most of its European allies stopped short of publicly naming any suspects. Still, some officials speculated about the many ways that Russia might gain, even though the pipeline carries its gas.

Poland and Ukraine openly blamed Russia, which pointed a finger at the United States, and both Moscow and Washington issued indignant denials. U.S. officials and outside experts also speculated over whether Ukraine or one of the Baltic states, which have long opposed the pipelines, might have had an interest in seeing them disabled — and in sending a message.

OK, so the Biden Administration is apparently publicly admitting the non-implausibility of the Cochran theory that Ukraine did it, and even my top-of-the-head speculation, inspired by Radek Sikorski’s tweet crediting/blaming the Americans, that maybe the Poles were involved.

In general, the Biden Administration appears to have been caught by surprise without pre-arranged talking points to push one theory of blame.

… Some European and American officials cautioned on Wednesday that it would be premature to conclude that Russia was behind the apparent attacks on the Nord Streams, each of which is actually two pipelines. President Vladimir V. Putin likes to show he has his finger on the gas valve, they noted, but wielding that power could mean keeping the pipelines, whose main owner is Russia’s state-controlled energy company, Gazprom, in good working order.

But others noted that one of two Nord Stream 2 pipelines was undamaged, leaving Mr. Putin the possibility of using it as leverage if the winter turns particularly cold.

Many Western officials and analysts said sabotage would fit neatly into Mr. Putin’s broader Russian strategy of waging war on multiple fronts, using economic and political tools, as well as arms, to undermine Ukraine’s allies and weaken their resolve and unity. It demonstrates to an already jittery Europe how vulnerable its vital infrastructure is, including other pipelines and undersea power and telecommunications cables.

“This is classic hybrid warfare,” said Marie-Agnes Strack-Zimmermann, head of the defense committee in Germany’s Parliament, who stressed that for now she had no evidence Russia was behind the attack but believed it was the most “plausible” culprit.

“Putin is going to use every hybrid measure at his disposal to fluster Europeans, from food to refugees to energy,” she said.

Dmitri S. Peskov, the Kremlin spokesman, said that accusing Russia was “predictably stupid and absurd.” He said American natural gas suppliers were reaping “huge profits” from increased sales to Europe, suggesting that the United States was to blame.

“Of course we were not,’’ said Adrienne Watson, the spokeswoman for the White House’s National Security Council, in a rare on-the-record denial. “We all know Russia has a long history of spreading disinformation and is doing it again here.”

Russian news outlets picked up on the Kremlin’s allegation, playing clips of Mr. Biden’s vow on Feb. 7 that if Russian invaded, “then there will be no longer Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it.” U.S. officials said he meant diplomatic and economic action, and noted that Mr. Biden had been proved correct when Germany halted the project.

A former Polish foreign minister, Radek Sikorski, a vociferous critic of Moscow, appeared to support its interpretation of events with a tweet saying, “Thank you, USA” above a photo of a patch of the Baltic Sea being churned by rising methane bubbles.

Reached by telephone on Wednesday, Mr. Sikorski declined to get into specifics about his post, but noted that the Nord Stream projects had bypassed Poland, which has tense relations with Moscow, while deepening Western Europe’s dependence on Russia. “Successive Polish governments have been ripping their veins out to stop Nordstream,” he said.

“Why shouldn’t I be overjoyed?” he added. “I would prefer to think it was rather our allies than our enemies.” …

At first glance, it seems counterintuitive that the Kremlin would damage its own multibillion-dollar assets. But there is value for Moscow in fueling European fear, which pushes up prices in the gas market.

And in the short term, analysts say, it is not clear what Mr. Putin stands to lose, having already largely cut off gas deliveries to European countries in recent months.

He stands to lose the ability to tell European countries that he can turn on the full flow of natural gas tomorrow if they betray Ukraine today. In contrast, Ukraine gains the knowledge that Germany would not benefit in 2022 economically from much more gas delivery even if it defected from the anti-Russian coalition tomorrow, and maybe not well into 2023.

… Some officials said that it might not be a coincidence that a gas conduit from Norway to Poland known as the Baltic Pipe opened on Tuesday. It was conceived to ease Warsaw’s dependence on Russia and passes close to the area where the leaks occurred.

… While some European officials were quick to speculate about Russian involvement, American officials were more cautious, noting the lack of available evidence.

For all their harsh critiques of Mr. Putin and his government, U.S. officials noted that it had been tempting to blame just about every attack on Russia, sometimes wrongly. In July, there was a widespread assumption in Washington that a major cyberattack on Albania was a Russian effort to undermine a NATO ally; this month, officials said an investigation had concluded the culprit was Iran.

Several officials in Washington noted that nongovernmental actors could have committed the pipeline sabotage. Others said the two detonations registered by seismometers in the region pointed to explosives placed by a submersible or dropped by aircraft or boat, suggesting a state had been involved.

“It’s hard to assess; does anybody benefit?” Finland’s president, Sauli Niinistö, told the news outlet Helsingin Sanomat. “That is why this is a mystery so far.”

iSteve commenter Steven80 writes:

1) The logic about Ukraine is that they are attacking a pipeline that won’t hurt them – Nort Stream 1 & 2 do not pass through their territory.

Unlike Soyuz, Progress Ujgorod – Urengoi, etc – pipelines, which are still active. Ukraine still gets the transition fees – business as usual, despite the war.

2) It is a decisive blow against the Russians (a potential source of revenue and blackmail) and the Germans (the temptation to leave the anti-Russian camp in the winter).

3) Easy and cheap to do – come on, everyone with an IQ over 90 can figure out how to blow a pipeline or cut an underwater cable, it is not rocket science. And a small team of special ops can certainly do it, for a relatively small amount of money.

Have in mind it is probably much easier now to buy weapons in Ukraine and smuggle them in Poland now that there is a war and millions of Ukrainian refugees in Poland. One can easily load some undersea mines from let’s say Odessa on a van and smuggle them to let’s say Darlowo in Poland. Cheap.

4) The US, like Germany, will certainly try to have policy alternatives, and it is not just the White House, but professionals in State Department and CIA that will certainly resist such an option. Not at least because they will fear similar sabotages, and no one likes for example to have satellites blown by aliens or underwater cables eaten by sharks. The US will be indecisive, in my opinion.

So I think Greg Cochran is right. It is the most logical thing to do.

This operation doesn’t seem all that complicated. For example, you could buy a fishing boat anywhere in the Atlantic and fly in to staff it with your own fishermen and a handful of deep sea divers. You purchase undersea mining explosives somewhere, such as corrupt Belgium where they don’t ask too many questions. Heck, you could go to West Africa if needed. You sail it to the Baltic for the herring harvest. At night, you happen to drift over the pipeline, send your divers down, then move on before dawn. Repeat as needed. A week later when you are back at home, the timers go off.

The budget seems pretty minimal: a couple of million dollars for the boat, a million for supplies, a million for wages, and a million for bonuses.

Any state along the North Atlantic could have pulled this off. But for the noncombatants it would be a sizable escalation and thus a big risk.

There are two combatants: Russia and Ukraine. The suddenly popular argument that Russia blowing up Russia’s own strategic pipeline would be in Russia’s interest seems strained to me. I haven’t heard any terribly skillful arguments for this, which suggests that this came as a big surprise to the anti-Russian coalition.

The argument that it would seem worth the risk to Ukraine, which is fighting for its national survival, seems pretty plausible.

Occam’s Razor points toward Ukraine as the perpetrator.

 
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  1. A US guy Saud that accusing Amerika was ” preposterous! ” Preposterous indeed!😏

  2. “so the Biden Administration is apparently publicly admitting the non-implausibility of the Cochran theory that Ukraine did it, and even my top-of-the-head speculation that maybe the Poles were involved.”

    And why not speculate that perhaps the Americans did it, or did it via proxies, (e.g. Ukraine, etc). As to ultimately who benefits most by this action, it would tend to help the US first and foremost.

    • Replies: @Hypnotoad666
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi


    And why not speculate that perhaps the Americans did it, or did it via proxies, (e.g. Ukraine, etc).
     
    Exactly. It's like saying that "Cuban Exiles" invaded the Bay of Pigs, so the US isn't on the hook for that fiasco. Distinction without much difference.

    Equally weak is the argument that the US can't be involved because the deep state didn't have a cover story ready to go. Secret organizations are famously siloed, and thus generally incompetent. The Department of Blowing Stuff Up may decide that the Department of Blaming Someone Else doesn't really have a compelling "need to know" exactly what they are up to.

    It's like when the FBI's Department of Framing Trump Supporters never told the Department of Arresting Trump Supporters not to put Ray Epps on their Most Wanted list.
  3. Sabotage of an undersea pipe I suspect really does require a lot of knowledge. I can’t see Ukraine doing it themselves – after all they don’t seem to manage the tanks and artillery given them without a great deal of “mercenary” assistance.

    But the big thing is who is this targeted against?
    Not so much Cui Bono as who loses. And that is certainly Germany and any part of Germany or Europe that was considering dropping sanctions and buying more Russia gas.
    Note here that the US does not sanction US oil and gas, it just puts pressure on Europe to do so.

    And who is fighting a war against Germany? There is a growing view that the whole Ukraine adventure has always been an attack on Germany and EU rather than on Russia which spent 8 years making itself resilient enough to any sanctions attack and really has been unharmed by the Economic war (predictable but not predicted). It is equally presumed that the list of grievances Russia raised in December were genuine, and that Russia has no base empirical motive to just grab land (it could have grabbed Georgia in 2008 or half Ukraine in 2014 had it wished).

    My view for a long time is that come US trading block vs China trading block the big threat to US is a Europe that wants to trade both ways. Ukraine is about preventing Europe doing that by creating mayhem on the Europe/Asia border (the fighting would have been over in April without US/UK intervention to prevent Zelensky from negotiating a deal).
    So either US is attacking Germany for daring to agree NS2 or simply US is cutting Europe off from Asia and doesn’t care about the consequences.

    • Agree: Matthew Kelly
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @michael droy

    "I can’t see Ukraine doing it themselves – after all they don’t seem to manage the tanks and artillery given them without a great deal of “mercenary” assistance."

    Judging by battlefield results, the Ukrainians seem to be pretty competent and motivated white men when it comes to modern warfare.

    This operation doesn't seem all that complicated. For example, you could buy a fishing boat anywhere in the Atlantic and staff it with your own fishermen and a handful of deep sea divers. You purchase undersea mining explosives somewhere, such as Belgium where they don't ask too many questions. Heck, you could go to West Africa if needed. You sail it to the Baltic for the herring harvest. At night, you happen to drift over the pipeline, send your divers down, then move on before dawn. Repeat as needed. A week later when you are back at home, the timers go off.

    Any state along the North Atlantic could have pulled this off, but for the noncombatants it would be a sizable escalation and thus a big risk.

    There are two combatants: Russia and Ukraine. The argument that blowing up Russia's own strategic pipeline would be in Russia's interest seems strained to me. The argument that it would seem worth the risk to Ukraine, which is fighting for its national survival, seems pretty plausible.

    Occam's Razor points toward Ukraine.

    Replies: @Loyalty Over IQ Worship, @Thoughts, @Coemgen, @Bill B., @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Chrisnonymous, @Dmon, @Gordo, @Intelligent Dasein, @Anon, @Pixo, @JimB

  4. ‘The Washington Post website pushes its follow-up story on the the sabotage of three of the four Nord Stream gas pipelines from Russia to Germany way down the site…’

    …which is, if not exactly conclusive, certainly indicative. ‘Move along, citizens, nothing to see here.’

    Right.

    • Agree: Paul Jolliffe
  5. and doesn’t (yet) have terribly persuasive arguments for why the Russians would blow up their own strategic assets other than that they’re Russians so they are always doing stuff that doesn’t make any sense.

    To say that’s not a terribly persuasive argument is a massive understatement. It’s plain silly.

    The mainstream press in this country reminds me of the iconic Solzhenitsyn quote about lying.

    In fact, reminds me of that quote on a daily basis, anymore.

    • Agree: Pop Warner, TWS
  6. Unlike many here, I have no idea who might have done it. But if experience is any guide, whoever the NYT & WP point fingers at probably isn’t guilty.

    • Agree: Adam Smith, Spud Boy
    • LOL: Paul Jolliffe
  7. Biden’s handlers did it, at the behest of their masters.

    Meanwhile, Creepy Joe is watching Matlock.

    • LOL: JimB
  8. doesn’t (yet) have terribly persuasive arguments for why the Russians would blow up their own strategic assets other than that they’re Russians so they are always doing stuff that doesn’t make any sense.

    If that’s the best they can do, it’s really sad. To say that’s not a “terribly persuasive argument(s)” is a massive understatement. For what should be obvious reasons.

    The iconic Solzhenitsyn “We know they are lying….” quote comes to mind more and more often these days.

  9. It’s important to note that it simply cannot have been Russia because this happened in NATO controlled water at a time when NATO is monitoring Russia as hard as they can.

    So of course it makes no sense Russia would want to do it. But it’s also just impossible.

    Whether Poles, Ukrainian, Swedes or Danes were involved might be mildly interesting to know. But the bottom line is America is in charge.

  10. doesn’t (yet) have terribly persuasive arguments for why the Russians would blow up their own strategic assets other than that they’re Russians so they are always doing stuff that doesn’t make any sense.

    If that’s the best they can do, it’s really sad. To say that’s not a “terribly persuasive argument(s)” is a massive understatement. For what should be obvious reasons.

    The iconic Solzhenitsyn “We know they are lying….” quote comes to mind more and more often these days.

    • Replies: @Cool Daddy Jimbo
    @Dnought


    The iconic Solzhenitsyn “We know they are lying….” quote comes to mind more and more often these days.

     

    Hell, you don't even need an intellectual giant any more.

    "I know you lie
    'Cause your lips are moving"

    -Meghan Trainor
  11. I’m surprised white supremacists aren’t considered suspects.

    • LOL: Matthew Kelly
    • Replies: @Woodpecker
    @allahu akbar

    Two white guys in MAGA hats?

    , @JR Ewing
    @allahu akbar


    I’m surprised white supremacists aren’t considered suspects.

     

    The western media thinks Russia is nothing but gay-hating "white supremacists", so in away they are.
  12. But with little evidence to go on — American officials said that explosive gas pouring from the broken pipes made it too dangerous to get close to the breach — the United States and most of its European allies stopped short of publicly naming any suspects.

    LOL. “American officials” need to brush up on their chemistry, underwater methane isn’t any more explosive than, say, underwater firewood. (Anyone remember the 24/7 live stream of oil pouring out of the breach under the Deepwater Horizon rig? Why wasn’t that “too dangerous” to approach?) But the point is: no evidence allowed until we get our story straight!

    I guess this is how Soviet apparatchiks felt when they needed to make a decision but the official Party Line hadn’t been published in Pravda yet.

    • Thanks: Coemgen
    • LOL: Father Coughlin
    • Replies: @Oz Skeptic
    @Hypnotoad666

    It is not fire or explosion that is the danger (although that can still happen), but simply sinking through the gas saturated water which is much less dense than ordinary water.

  13. The Russians will be blamed by Washington no matter whether it’s true or not. The EU and NATO will do the same.

    Notice how the Russians were blamed for shooting down that Malaysian Airlines jet over Ukraine but no one of importance seems to bring it up anymore, despite their love of blaming Russia for everything else. It makes me think the evidence just isn’t there and people have been told to drop it.

    They’ll try the same thing with this Nord Stream sabotage. They’ll try to give it the Building 7 treatment but too many Germans will be freezing and going bankrupt to let it be memory holed.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Cagey Beast


    Notice how the Russians were blamed for shooting down that Malaysian Airlines jet over Ukraine but no one of importance seems to bring it up anymore
     
    It's widely understood that the Russians shot down the airliner - the exact details have been investigated by various authorities and are well known. The airliner was downed by a Buk surface-to-air missile launched from pro-Russian separatist-controlled territory in Ukraine. The Buk that was used originated from the 53rd Anti-Aircraft Missile Brigade of the Russian Federation and had been transported from Russia on the day of the crash, fired from a field in a rebel-controlled area and the launch system returned to Russia afterwards. No one seriously disputes that this is what happened. There are missile fragments and satellite photos and witness testimony and so on that constitute irrefutable proof.

    It is just not true that "no one of importance seems to bring it up anymore". On 19 June 2019, the Dutch Public Prosecution Service charged four people with murder in connection with the shooting down of the aircraft: three Russians, Igor Girkin, Sergey Dubinsky, and Oleg Pulatov, and one Ukrainian, Leonid Kharchenko. The trial (in absentia) is ongoing and judgment is expected by the end of this year. Perhaps some future Russian government will turn over the criminals to serve their sentences.
  14. Well-known American correspondent in Russia, John Helmer, says the Poles did it (link).

    By John Helmer

    The military operation on Monday night which fired munitions to blow holes in the Nord Stream I and Nord Stream II pipelines on the Baltic Sea floor, near Bornholm Island, was executed by the Polish Navy and special forces.

    It was aided by the Danish and Swedish military; planned and coordinated with US intelligence and technical support; and approved by the Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki.

    The operation is a repeat of the Bornholm Bash operation of April 2021, which attempted to sabotage Russian vessels laying the gas pipes, but ended in ignominious retreat by the Polish forces. That was a direct attack on Russia. This time the attack is targeting the Germans, especially the business and union lobby and the East German voters, with a scheme to blame Moscow for the troubles they already have — and their troubles to come with winter.

    [more]

    • Thanks: AndrewR
    • Replies: @Oscar Peterson
    @Veracitor

    Sounds plausible.

    , @Arclight
    @Veracitor

    The likely accomplices if it was primarily about Ukraine are obvious but seems like awful operational security if this reporter's account and specifically named countries is accurate and being disclosed already.

    , @AnotherDad
    @Veracitor


    It was aided by the Danish and Swedish military; planned and coordinated with US intelligence and technical support; and approved by the Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki.
     
    I know nothing about this Helmer guy, but as soon as you drag four nations into it, I smell "b.s."

    I have no knowledge and can believe any of the relevant players--or rogue players--actually did it. If you tell me you've got great sources who say "It's the Poles"--hey that's quite plausible--or even "It's the Poles with intelligence help from the US"--that's less plausible, but still quite plausible.

    When you start dragging Danes and Swedes in there as well ... LOL. Why not the UN General Assembly? Any operational secrecy would be long, long gone--a boat load of people would be in on it, and everyone would know from teh get go, it's all going to come out. That just smells like your "reliable sources" are spouting a lot of contradictory b.s. and really don't actually know shit.

    Replies: @Wokechoke

    , @Peter Lund
    @Veracitor


    The operation is a repeat of the Bornholm Bash operation of April 2021, which attempted to sabotage Russian vessels laying the gas pipes, but ended in ignominious retreat by the Polish forces.
     
    Please tell me more about that imaginary operation that never happened.
  15. Regardless of who did it – and I’m still not convinced it wasn’t the US or the UK – American journalists cheering it on because it increases the likelihood of the war continuing, is absolutely obscene.

    Russia sucks. Ukraine sucks. Germany sucks. They all suck.

    This war is none of our business. People are suffering and more people will suffer further this winter now that this pipeline has been destroyed and the possibility of the resumption of gas deliveries is gone.

    The suffering of Americans is all I care about – and all our overlord ruling class should care about – but they are much more interested in sticking their nose into foreign conflicts because they want to increase their power and their wealth.

    We are inching towards the brink and our supposedly independent media is cheering the oncoming annihilation.

    • Replies: @JimB
    @JR Ewing

    Fake elections have consequences. Joe’s fraudulent 81 million votes stuffed into ghetto ballot boxes brought us to this moment in history.

    Replies: @J.Ross

    , @Thoughts
    @JR Ewing

    You should care.

    The fact that a white slavic population is seen by the globalist classes as expendable

    Means they believe you are expendable

    Americans motto should be 'Foster peace between Ukraine and Russia now, to stop the slaughter of Americans later'

    If it isn't obvious that Slaughtering Americans is where this is going, I can't help you

    , @Herbert R. Tarlek, Jr.
    @JR Ewing

    The suffering of Americans is all I care about – and all our overlord ruling class should care about – but they are much more interested in sticking their nose into foreign conflicts because they want to increase their power and their wealth.

    Many, many stories such as these in my metro area of late:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xf0FRT-xh20

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0ga7uGGk2M

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSSIuY8HLHo

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjRMSerlqJ0

    If it were Uzi-wielding thugs in Hebron being thrown out of their homes, you can bet your ass our leaders would immediately appropriate however many billions of dollars it took to keep them housed. But crippled and elderly Americans? Meh, who gives a damn.

    I hate this government and this whole system so fucking much.

    Also, fuck off, Arizona is full.

    , @Captain Tripps
    @JR Ewing

    Agree.

  16. “Putin is going to use every hybrid measure at his disposal to fluster Europeans, from food to refugees to energy,” says Marie-Agnes Strack-Zimmermann, head of the defence committee in Germany’s Parliament.

    He’d be a far greater thorn in the side of the EU ruling class if he cut off the flow of refugees, rather than (as they pretend) increasing it.

  17. @Veracitor
    Well-known American correspondent in Russia, John Helmer, says the Poles did it (link).


    By John Helmer

    The military operation on Monday night which fired munitions to blow holes in the Nord Stream I and Nord Stream II pipelines on the Baltic Sea floor, near Bornholm Island, was executed by the Polish Navy and special forces.

    It was aided by the Danish and Swedish military; planned and coordinated with US intelligence and technical support; and approved by the Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki.

    The operation is a repeat of the Bornholm Bash operation of April 2021, which attempted to sabotage Russian vessels laying the gas pipes, but ended in ignominious retreat by the Polish forces. That was a direct attack on Russia. This time the attack is targeting the Germans, especially the business and union lobby and the East German voters, with a scheme to blame Moscow for the troubles they already have — and their troubles to come with winter.

    [more]

     

    Replies: @Oscar Peterson, @Arclight, @AnotherDad, @Peter Lund

    Sounds plausible.

  18. So, you’re saying the Ukrainians unilaterally decided to sabotage pipelines incredibly important to Europe. It never dawned on them to run it by the Americans, whose support is the only thing keeping them afloat.

    And that after witnessing the Ukrainians going insanely rogue and threatening American relations with all of Europe, the Americans are just fine with it.

    Well, I can’t argue with logic.

    • Replies: @AnotherDad
    @Citizen of a Silly Country


    So, you’re saying the Ukrainians unilaterally decided to sabotage pipelines incredibly important to Europe. It never dawned on them to run it by the Americans, whose support is the only thing keeping them afloat.
     
    There are multiple pipelines. Nordstream 2 (brand new, never used) and Nordstream 1 (operational about 10 years, but gas deliveries curtained suspended by Russia over sanctions issues.) The older surface pipelines are the ones that go through Ukraine and Poland.

    Ukraine and Poland would like those to be the only pipelines in use to get gas to Germany/Western Europe, because
    a) when they are in use, then they can be supplied with gas
    b) then Putin can't easily work around them and use gas as lever to pry on Germany/Western Europe.

    Not really complicated, clearly in Ukraine's/Poland's interest that the only working pipelines to be ones that go through Ukraine/Poland.

    Not saying either of them did it. But they have "motive".

    Replies: @Citizen of a Silly Country

    , @Loyalty Over IQ Worship
    @Citizen of a Silly Country

    What's shocking is the lack of respect Sailer/Cochran have for their audience, such as it is. This makes anyone who repeats this story sound like a doofus.

    The irony is they pride themselves on loving IQ and hanging out with the Smart Fraction, but end up with only the most gullible, low IQ people believing them.

    As with Covid and the "Putler bad" trope, Sailer/Cochran have the same opinions as a vapid college girl.

    Replies: @DH13, @AnotherDad, @Citizen of a Silly Country

  19. The French, possibly Kerguelen extremists.

    About as good as any theory right now.

    • Replies: @Cool Daddy Jimbo
    @Trelane


    The French, possibly Kerguelen extremists.

    About as good as any theory right now.
     
    I'm going with Basque separatists. Why? Why not?
  20. The one false word that spoils the otherwise good text is “Betray”. Germany cannot “betray” the Ukraine because Germany is no ally of the Ukraine. There is no obligation on Germany or the Germans to help the Ukraine or to fight for it. Canada, sure is an Ally, US too. But not Germany.

    Germans are quite anal people that hate gas thieves. Now they will hate gas saboteours.

    • Agree: Cagey Beast
    • Replies: @Hunsdon
    @Thelma Ringbaum

    Thank you. The word "betray" leaped out at me, as well.

  21. A sabotage operation led by Ukraine has certain advantages for Western actors who 1) want to harm Russia and 2) want plausible deniability. Ukraine is already at war with Russia, so state-sponsored sabotage doesn’t make them any more at war with Russia. However, if the trail does lead back to Ukraine, they are also a non-NATO nation. Direct evidence against Ukraine does not mean direct evidence against NATO.

    I’m not saying the USG or some portion of USG isn’t ultimately responsible. (Or the Ukrainians did it themselves. Or the Poles. Or the Russians. Or some Eco-terrorist group.) There are just certain diplomatic concerns that make Ukraine attractive.

    One more thought. Germany may have been supplying Russia with quite a bit of their high-end machine tools. If so, knocking out German industrial capacity will prevent Russia from fully rearming during the winter. Unfortunately, Germany also supplies machine tools to everyone, so everyone will suffer for this. (Assuming that we don’t all die in a nuclear holocaust before Christmas.)

  22. … professionals in State Department and CIA that will certainly resist such an option…

    Momar Ghaddaffy would likely disagree.

  23. Tit for tat. How difficult will it be for the Russians to develop a drone submarine fleet to attack the numerous pipelines (North Sea, Mediterranean, Baltic) that European civilization depends upon and cannot go more than one week without? It won’t be hard. Magnetic mine technology was used in WW1, just float the mine in the general area of the ship and physics will do the rest. We’ve come a long way since them. In ww2 the Japanese utilized mini, manned submarines to cause mischief. But these subs were designed to engage destroyers and larger ship. Drone submarines have one simple objective: find a pipeline and set off a high explosive in the vicinity. Easy peasy. And submarine drones are garage level technology today.

    It will be impossible to patrol and protect the 10s of thousands of miles (hundreds of thousands?) of gas lines (let’s throw in telecom/internet cable too). I think that a fleet of hundreds of remoted controlled minisubs can make quick work of the entire natural gas pipe network.

    What furies has the Biden administration unleashed?

  24. The final days of ww2 in Europe saw the Soviets storm the stubborn German garrison in Bornholm. How fitting that ww3 can be definitely placed in the same spot. A regional problem of no concern to anyone besides a a few Slavs in the Black Sea suddenly erupts in a “GasPiping” at the intersection of Sweden Germany Poland and Denmark.

  25. “And then some more about global warming.”

    They’ll going to need alot of global warming this winter in Europe.

    • LOL: Old Prude
    • Replies: @Old Prude
    @newrouter

    choice comment!

  26. The article fails to take into consideration the effects of the Nord stream sabotage upon black wymins and their fake but accurate hair.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @Mike Tre

    World War III Erupts. Women and Minorities Hit Hardest.

  27. Right, blame the incompetent Ukies. There’s only one party that could have done this, and it sure as hell ain’t Russia.

    • Agree: JR Ewing
    • Replies: @HA
    @Fidelios Automata

    "There’s only one party that could have done this, and it sure as hell ain’t Russia."

    You really don't think the Russians could have done this? With fans like you, Putin doesn't need detractors.

    Then again, if the Russians really are incapable of pulling off even something like this, it goes a long way towards explaining why this special military operation turned into such a fiasco.

  28. Russia, a country with a press ganged military that’s being outfought by Grandpa Shevchenchuk with his soviet era SKS/Cossack indomitability; that can also slip expertly into waters controlled by Denmark over watched by Poland, Germany and Sweden and ultimately the USN, undetected. These new conscripts are dynamite frogmen!

    • Replies: @Dr. Awkward, Professor of Palindromes
    @Wokechoke

    “Russia is a country run by European Christians who are resisting Satanic globalist overlords. They must be destroyed. Slava Ukraina!”— Steve Sailer

    , @JR Ewing
    @Wokechoke

    The Baltic is notoriously shallow and full of islands and chokepoints and therefore easy to surveil. It's also surrounded by NATO (or NATO friendly) countries on three sides. Hence during the Cold War, the Soviets ran their Atlantic navy and submarines out of Murmansk, on the Arctic coast.

    Point being, the Russians aren't sneaking in undetected and then sneaking back out. And neither is anyone else without permission from the NATO (and ultimately, the US).

    The only semi-plausible theory I've heard for the Russians to be able to do it would be with a vessel inside the pipeline itself (referred to in the business as a "pig"), basically a drone from the inside.

    The problem with that is that in a gas pipeline, the pig is propelled by the pressure of the gas itself and can only move in one direction. If gas isn't moving through the pipe and coming out the other side, then the pig isn't moving, either. And even if the Russians had a way to do it, the Germans would notice something going on from the downstream side with pressure variations and vibrations and the like.

    This brings up another point: I've seen in some places (not necessarily here) that the whole thing is a false flag because the pipes weren't operating and therefore there shouldn't have been any gas inside to vent. So, somehow the giant gas bubbles are part of the ruse.

    This is a totally fallacious argument, because it's standard operating procedure for maintenance and upkeep reasons to keep gas pipelines pressurized with "line pack" even when product isn't being shipped. Keeping it empty for long periods of time, as it's not designed to be, could cause it to start to deteriorate and fail more quickly. (irony, I know)

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  29. I blame Spongebob and Patrick

    • Replies: @Cool Daddy Jimbo
    @p38ace


    I blame Spongebob and Patrick
     
    They certainly have the underwater knowhow.
  30. US Navy did it via submersible drones fired by helicopters based aboard USS Kearsarge. That ship and other US naval units were in the immediate area at exactly that time. No surprise; Biden publically threatened to take out the pipelines awhile back.

  31. Germany is now 100% dependent on US natural gas.

    • Replies: @JimDandy
    @George

    So, Russia did it. Clearly.

  32. @Veracitor
    Well-known American correspondent in Russia, John Helmer, says the Poles did it (link).


    By John Helmer

    The military operation on Monday night which fired munitions to blow holes in the Nord Stream I and Nord Stream II pipelines on the Baltic Sea floor, near Bornholm Island, was executed by the Polish Navy and special forces.

    It was aided by the Danish and Swedish military; planned and coordinated with US intelligence and technical support; and approved by the Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki.

    The operation is a repeat of the Bornholm Bash operation of April 2021, which attempted to sabotage Russian vessels laying the gas pipes, but ended in ignominious retreat by the Polish forces. That was a direct attack on Russia. This time the attack is targeting the Germans, especially the business and union lobby and the East German voters, with a scheme to blame Moscow for the troubles they already have — and their troubles to come with winter.

    [more]

     

    Replies: @Oscar Peterson, @Arclight, @AnotherDad, @Peter Lund

    The likely accomplices if it was primarily about Ukraine are obvious but seems like awful operational security if this reporter’s account and specifically named countries is accurate and being disclosed already.

  33. 1) I know in war sometimes you burn your own ship rather than have the enemy capture it. Was Russia perhaps fearful of NATO seizing the pipeline and decided to take the preventative measure of blowing it up?

    2} Query: does this mean that Germans will certainly freeze this winter?

    • Replies: @Alfa158
    @Father Coughlin

    Germany already seized the Gazprom facilities on the receiving end of the pipeline in Germany and the flow of gas to Germany was already tapering off to zero because of non-operation of Nordstream 2 and loss of turbines on Nordstream 1. The only reason to blow the pipelines themselves was to make sure the Germans couldn’t throw in the towel and resume buying Russian gas.
    I’m curious why one pipeline wasn’t blown. Malfunction of the explosives or some subtle strategy?

    I’m not sure the Germans would freeze this winter. They have other sources of energy including non-Russian gas. I can see where they would suffer economic hardship from reducing industrial activity, but it’s not going to be 1945 all over again.

  34. @Mike Tre
    The article fails to take into consideration the effects of the Nord stream sabotage upon black wymins and their fake but accurate hair.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

    World War III Erupts. Women and Minorities Hit Hardest.

  35. In related developments the German Chancellor announced the shocking news of an attack by Polish forces on a German radio station in Gleiwitz.

  36. Just thinking it through. If the Biden administration and it’s neocon controllers bring about nuclear exchange (leave aside total nuclear war) might we have a Turner diaries type scenario in the USA?

    When the furies are out there is no controlling them.

    • Replies: @duncsbaby
    @Daniel H

    I fear the Turner diaries scenario you envision is more likely to involve a reversal of the races doing the lynching. In America's current state the potential for wholesale brutality which is what will be needed in a race war exists overwhelmingly w/the BIPOC masses, who all hate Whitey.

    Replies: @JR Ewing

  37. @George
    Germany is now 100% dependent on US natural gas.

    Replies: @JimDandy

    So, Russia did it. Clearly.

  38. Why does anyone listen to Cochran anymore? He got wmds right and has been wrong on basically everything ever since yet the alt right continue to listen to the blowhard old fool.

  39. It demonstrates to an already jittery Europe how vulnerable its vital infrastructure is, including other pipelines and undersea power and telecommunications cables.

    “This is classic hybrid warfare,”

    Exactly. In other words, this is giving the rest of Europe a taste of the same medicine the Russians promised to dole out to the Ukrainians once it became clear after the Kharkiv surprise that the special military operation, or whatever it’s called now, is in danger of sputtering out.

    In the words of one of the more laughably bad aged-like-milk pro-Russian analyses made in response to the Ukraine counterattacks (but assuredly a “must read” according to the at least one of Putin’s local well-wishers) “the Russian army must become serious about destroying… infrastructure”.

    Ergo, tossing bombs on dams, playing games with a nuclear facility, is all of a piece with putting a hole or two in a pipeline, especially if it deflects attention from the sham referendums and a laughably lacklustre mobilization response. It’s just that this time, the mayhem happened outside of Ukraine. Depending on how Europe responds, we can expect plenty more of that.

    • Troll: Je Suis Omar Mateen
    • Replies: @ThreeCranes
    @HA

    Not that I agree with myself, but to add to your point; we don't really know (yet) that the pipelines were breached. All we have is seismic recordings of explosions and evidence of gas escaping. What if the Russians opened some valves down there just to, as you say, divert attention away from other matters?

    Replies: @HA, @Jack D

  40. He stands to lose the ability to tell European countries that he can turn on the full flow of natural gas tomorrow if they betray Ukraine today.

    Given that they don’t owe Ukraine anything, they can hardly betray it.

    • Agree: Adam Smith, Cagey Beast
  41. This is baloney. Everyone knows the USA did it.

    Is everyone noticing that Cochran and Sailer always come in to push some silly Narrative that the Usual Suspects want promoted? Johnny on the spot, here comes Cochran with his “theory” to muddy the waters about US complicity. How convenient.

    Same thing happened with Covid Lockdown Hysteria. They both aggressively pushed an agenda that was intended to get rid of Trump and normalize centralized power.

    This political activism is only reserved for certain issues. Notice, neither one of them have any passion for, you know, the destruction of their people.

    • Thanks: Je Suis Omar Mateen
    • Replies: @Richard B
    @Loyalty Over IQ Worship

    Great comment! Couldn't agree more.


    Everyone knows the USA did it.
     
    Yep! And I love how they all repeat in unison that anyone could blow up a pipeline.

    The repetition compulsion reminds one of those Tucker segments when he shows various members of the hostile elite in the MSM, academia, business and government all repeating the same talking point over and over again like the chattering of an idiot, only less interesting. Their lies just get sillier and dumber all of the time. As if Russia has no way at all of protecting something that important to them.

    In any event, it's one thing when the MSM does it. But when Steve does it too. Well, I guess it just serves as another reminder that, as not a few have said about him, he really isn't on our side - at all. Maybe they got to him. Or he was always on their side and his little fundraisers are for show, to give him some Alt Media credibility.

    Wouldn't surprise me one bit.


    Notice, neither one of them have any passion for, you know, the destruction of their people.
     
    I didn't quite get this last line. I guess I'm not sure who their refers to. The Russians?

    Anyway, again, great comment.

  42. My suspicion is a dissident group in Russia. Seems close to the time of compulsory military service order (and the “Referenda”). This is the Russian version of Vietnam War Protest movement. Much better than anything that may cause violence.

    I heard a report that left unrepaired, saltwater ingress will render the whole pipeline to scrap fairly fast.

  43. @Veracitor
    Well-known American correspondent in Russia, John Helmer, says the Poles did it (link).


    By John Helmer

    The military operation on Monday night which fired munitions to blow holes in the Nord Stream I and Nord Stream II pipelines on the Baltic Sea floor, near Bornholm Island, was executed by the Polish Navy and special forces.

    It was aided by the Danish and Swedish military; planned and coordinated with US intelligence and technical support; and approved by the Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki.

    The operation is a repeat of the Bornholm Bash operation of April 2021, which attempted to sabotage Russian vessels laying the gas pipes, but ended in ignominious retreat by the Polish forces. That was a direct attack on Russia. This time the attack is targeting the Germans, especially the business and union lobby and the East German voters, with a scheme to blame Moscow for the troubles they already have — and their troubles to come with winter.

    [more]

     

    Replies: @Oscar Peterson, @Arclight, @AnotherDad, @Peter Lund

    It was aided by the Danish and Swedish military; planned and coordinated with US intelligence and technical support; and approved by the Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki.

    I know nothing about this Helmer guy, but as soon as you drag four nations into it, I smell “b.s.”

    I have no knowledge and can believe any of the relevant players–or rogue players–actually did it. If you tell me you’ve got great sources who say “It’s the Poles”–hey that’s quite plausible–or even “It’s the Poles with intelligence help from the US”–that’s less plausible, but still quite plausible.

    When you start dragging Danes and Swedes in there as well … LOL. Why not the UN General Assembly? Any operational secrecy would be long, long gone–a boat load of people would be in on it, and everyone would know from teh get go, it’s all going to come out. That just smells like your “reliable sources” are spouting a lot of contradictory b.s. and really don’t actually know shit.

    • Agree: ic1000
    • Replies: @Wokechoke
    @AnotherDad

    Pretty soon all these lemmings of nations will be blaming Russia anyway.

  44. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    "so the Biden Administration is apparently publicly admitting the non-implausibility of the Cochran theory that Ukraine did it, and even my top-of-the-head speculation that maybe the Poles were involved."

    And why not speculate that perhaps the Americans did it, or did it via proxies, (e.g. Ukraine, etc). As to ultimately who benefits most by this action, it would tend to help the US first and foremost.

    Replies: @Hypnotoad666

    And why not speculate that perhaps the Americans did it, or did it via proxies, (e.g. Ukraine, etc).

    Exactly. It’s like saying that “Cuban Exiles” invaded the Bay of Pigs, so the US isn’t on the hook for that fiasco. Distinction without much difference.

    Equally weak is the argument that the US can’t be involved because the deep state didn’t have a cover story ready to go. Secret organizations are famously siloed, and thus generally incompetent. The Department of Blowing Stuff Up may decide that the Department of Blaming Someone Else doesn’t really have a compelling “need to know” exactly what they are up to.

    It’s like when the FBI’s Department of Framing Trump Supporters never told the Department of Arresting Trump Supporters not to put Ray Epps on their Most Wanted list.

  45. @Wokechoke
    Russia, a country with a press ganged military that's being outfought by Grandpa Shevchenchuk with his soviet era SKS/Cossack indomitability; that can also slip expertly into waters controlled by Denmark over watched by Poland, Germany and Sweden and ultimately the USN, undetected. These new conscripts are dynamite frogmen!

    Replies: @Dr. Awkward, Professor of Palindromes, @JR Ewing

    “Russia is a country run by European Christians who are resisting Satanic globalist overlords. They must be destroyed. Slava Ukraina!”— Steve Sailer

  46. @Father Coughlin
    1) I know in war sometimes you burn your own ship rather than have the enemy capture it. Was Russia perhaps fearful of NATO seizing the pipeline and decided to take the preventative measure of blowing it up?

    2} Query: does this mean that Germans will certainly freeze this winter?

    Replies: @Alfa158

    Germany already seized the Gazprom facilities on the receiving end of the pipeline in Germany and the flow of gas to Germany was already tapering off to zero because of non-operation of Nordstream 2 and loss of turbines on Nordstream 1. The only reason to blow the pipelines themselves was to make sure the Germans couldn’t throw in the towel and resume buying Russian gas.
    I’m curious why one pipeline wasn’t blown. Malfunction of the explosives or some subtle strategy?

    I’m not sure the Germans would freeze this winter. They have other sources of energy including non-Russian gas. I can see where they would suffer economic hardship from reducing industrial activity, but it’s not going to be 1945 all over again.

    • Thanks: Father Coughlin
  47. https://www.thedefensepost.com/2022/08/30/uk-mine-hunting-drones-ukraine/amp/

    The UK gave Ukraine 6 underwater drones last month. They Could they have been used by Ukraine to destroy the pipelines. They can reach a death of 100 meters.

    • Replies: @ThreeCranes
    @Hernan Pizzaro del Blanco

    The smoking gun?

  48. Maybe Green Peace or some similar environmental group did it, in order to provoke a World War they hoped would lead to the extinction of humanity.

    Hey, it’s a theory.

  49. @Fidelios Automata
    Right, blame the incompetent Ukies. There's only one party that could have done this, and it sure as hell ain't Russia.

    Replies: @HA

    “There’s only one party that could have done this, and it sure as hell ain’t Russia.”

    You really don’t think the Russians could have done this? With fans like you, Putin doesn’t need detractors.

    Then again, if the Russians really are incapable of pulling off even something like this, it goes a long way towards explaining why this special military operation turned into such a fiasco.

  50. @Hypnotoad666

    But with little evidence to go on — American officials said that explosive gas pouring from the broken pipes made it too dangerous to get close to the breach — the United States and most of its European allies stopped short of publicly naming any suspects.
     
    LOL. "American officials" need to brush up on their chemistry, underwater methane isn't any more explosive than, say, underwater firewood. (Anyone remember the 24/7 live stream of oil pouring out of the breach under the Deepwater Horizon rig? Why wasn't that "too dangerous" to approach?) But the point is: no evidence allowed until we get our story straight!

    I guess this is how Soviet apparatchiks felt when they needed to make a decision but the official Party Line hadn't been published in Pravda yet.

    Replies: @Oz Skeptic

    It is not fire or explosion that is the danger (although that can still happen), but simply sinking through the gas saturated water which is much less dense than ordinary water.

  51. Anon[175] • Disclaimer says:

    It’s getting to the point where I really, really cannot stand Biden. He is quite simply the worst president in history, even worse than Obama, who was the runner-up. Biden is a loathsome Joker-like comic-book villian with a sick freak family. Biden either bungles everything because he’s incompetent, or he manages occasional moments of competence in which he’s evil.

    Even James Buchanan had a history of honest service before he screwed up as president. Biden, by contrast, was an utterly undistinguished zero before he clawed his way into the presidency.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Anon


    Even James Buchanan had a history of honest service...
     
    He serviced William Rufus DeVane King, until recently the namesake of Seattle's county.
  52. @HA

    It demonstrates to an already jittery Europe how vulnerable its vital infrastructure is, including other pipelines and undersea power and telecommunications cables.

    “This is classic hybrid warfare,”
     

    Exactly. In other words, this is giving the rest of Europe a taste of the same medicine the Russians promised to dole out to the Ukrainians once it became clear after the Kharkiv surprise that the special military operation, or whatever it's called now, is in danger of sputtering out.

    In the words of one of the more laughably bad aged-like-milk pro-Russian analyses made in response to the Ukraine counterattacks (but assuredly a "must read" according to the at least one of Putin's local well-wishers) "the Russian army must become serious about destroying... infrastructure".

    Ergo, tossing bombs on dams, playing games with a nuclear facility, is all of a piece with putting a hole or two in a pipeline, especially if it deflects attention from the sham referendums and a laughably lacklustre mobilization response. It's just that this time, the mayhem happened outside of Ukraine. Depending on how Europe responds, we can expect plenty more of that.

    Replies: @ThreeCranes

    Not that I agree with myself, but to add to your point; we don’t really know (yet) that the pipelines were breached. All we have is seismic recordings of explosions and evidence of gas escaping. What if the Russians opened some valves down there just to, as you say, divert attention away from other matters?

    • Replies: @HA
    @ThreeCranes

    "What if the Russians opened some valves down there just to, as you say, divert attention away from other matters?"

    Agreed. And I'm not saying it's certain that the Russians did this -- I just find the outright dismissal by the friends of Putin that the Russians would ever bomb their own pipeline to be an abject plea to ignore the obvious. At this point, after the polonium and the nerve toxin and the poisoned umbrella, and dioxin, my first guess as to who is responsible for skullduggery like this is generally going to be Russians (or North Koreans), just like my first guess for where the latest deadly epidemic originated is going to be some Chinese or African wet market or factory farm. Those aren't foolproof guesses, but outside of Unz-dot-com conspiracy rumour mills, they make for a pretty good start.

    And there are plenty of abusive ex-lovers who have shown no hesitation in burning down even their own houses once the restraining order was issued to make them unwelcome there. To the extent the Russians followed up the snub of their gas with an "ok, well then how do you like THIS?", it is completely plausible to me. But as I said, I'm happy to wait for the investigation to unfold before actually pointing fingers.

    Replies: @Alfa158, @al gore rhythms

    , @Jack D
    @ThreeCranes

    I don't think there are any valves where the explosions occurred, and there were in fact explosions recorded so it wasn't just the Russians opening some valves.

    This is not to say that they could not have initiated the explosions themselves - as HA says, they are certainly not "above" doing nefarious stuff like this (although proof is still lacking so far and motives are unclear).

    As an interesting data point, each pipeline is in fact two pipes (a total of 4) and only 3 of the 4 were breached. This could have just been a failure of execution (in which case maybe there is an unexploded mine attached to the remaining pipe which might provide clues as to whose mine it was). Or perhaps, especially if the Russians did this, it was intentional that not all of the pipes were breached?

  53. @Citizen of a Silly Country
    So, you're saying the Ukrainians unilaterally decided to sabotage pipelines incredibly important to Europe. It never dawned on them to run it by the Americans, whose support is the only thing keeping them afloat.

    And that after witnessing the Ukrainians going insanely rogue and threatening American relations with all of Europe, the Americans are just fine with it.

    Well, I can't argue with logic.

    Replies: @AnotherDad, @Loyalty Over IQ Worship

    So, you’re saying the Ukrainians unilaterally decided to sabotage pipelines incredibly important to Europe. It never dawned on them to run it by the Americans, whose support is the only thing keeping them afloat.

    There are multiple pipelines. Nordstream 2 (brand new, never used) and Nordstream 1 (operational about 10 years, but gas deliveries curtained suspended by Russia over sanctions issues.) The older surface pipelines are the ones that go through Ukraine and Poland.

    Ukraine and Poland would like those to be the only pipelines in use to get gas to Germany/Western Europe, because
    a) when they are in use, then they can be supplied with gas
    b) then Putin can’t easily work around them and use gas as lever to pry on Germany/Western Europe.

    Not really complicated, clearly in Ukraine’s/Poland’s interest that the only working pipelines to be ones that go through Ukraine/Poland.

    Not saying either of them did it. But they have “motive”.

    • Agree: ic1000
    • Thanks: JR Ewing
    • Replies: @Citizen of a Silly Country
    @AnotherDad

    You know what's a bigger motive to Ukraine? Not biting the hand that feeds you.

    Ukraine doesn't last a week without US support. There is no risk to Ukraine - even the Russians - larger than losing or even diminishing US support. Ukraine doesn't take a $hit without US approval.

    Poland has more leeway, but, ultimately, is on the same boat. Without US support, their situation is dramatically more dangerous. They also would be crazy to pull off a stunt like this without US approval.

    Finally, the US has multiple huge motives to blow up those pipes.

    Look, this is basically like the mob. Low level mobsters don't kill someone important without the boss' approval. And if they do, they get killed themselves.

  54. @JR Ewing
    Regardless of who did it - and I'm still not convinced it wasn't the US or the UK - American journalists cheering it on because it increases the likelihood of the war continuing, is absolutely obscene.

    Russia sucks. Ukraine sucks. Germany sucks. They all suck.

    This war is none of our business. People are suffering and more people will suffer further this winter now that this pipeline has been destroyed and the possibility of the resumption of gas deliveries is gone.

    The suffering of Americans is all I care about - and all our overlord ruling class should care about - but they are much more interested in sticking their nose into foreign conflicts because they want to increase their power and their wealth.

    We are inching towards the brink and our supposedly independent media is cheering the oncoming annihilation.

    Replies: @JimB, @Thoughts, @Herbert R. Tarlek, Jr., @Captain Tripps

    Fake elections have consequences. Joe’s fraudulent 81 million votes stuffed into ghetto ballot boxes brought us to this moment in history.

    • Agree: tyrone, JR Ewing
    • Thanks: JimDandy
    • Troll: Peter Akuleyev
    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @JimB

    Agree. Thinking about the Hunter laptop, which could have warned the normies that Biden is a Chinese employee and shown his deep corrupt dealings in Ukraine, saving the world and numerous lives from this mess. The truth came out and the bad guys still won.

  55. Anon[384] • Disclaimer says:

    A frequently appearing pattern when a mysterious, unsolved incident appears is:

    1. Experts and consultants offer commentary about how difficult or expensive perpetrating the incidence was.

    2. Experts list up a rogue’s gallery of suspects who just happen to be well known to the public, or at least to the experts.

    3. In the end, it turns out that some rando did it and it wasn’t that hard.

    E.g.: The high-tech weoponized anthrax that had a unique genetic signature turns out to just be anthrax that could have come from dozens of places. Or the Hollywood executive who was assassinated using the “double tap” technique by an elite hitman after sophisticated surveillance, but turns out to have been the hapless random victim of an illegal on a moped who wanted to snatch a purse.

    I wonder if this sabotage will end up something simple and unexpected. Perhaps the “triple explosion” was a single explosion that triggered a second and third, and maybe the initial explosion was a quality control flaw of some sort. For example. I’m not putting this forward as an actual theory, but as a hypothetical example of a general concept of how these things often go.

    We’ll find out eventually, or not, like the Dobbs leak.

    • Replies: @Jack Armstrong
    @Anon

    The Dobbs leaker is known — it was Justice Thomas (by means of his wife for deniable plausibility).

    As for the Baltic Bombers, has anyone explored the possibility that the pipeline "attackers" may be the same "Wisconsin frat boy types" that attacked Althea Bernstein? They were both carried out by means of fire and stealth. And Wisconsinians are adept at cold weather and deep water operations. Like ice-fishing with a hand grenade. OPEN YOUR EYES !

    Replies: @kaganovitch

  56. b) then Putin can’t easily work around them and use gas as lever to pry on Germany/Western Europe.

    What are you talking about? The gas that flows through those pipelines comes from Russia. Putin could just turn off the spigot, your GloboHomo contracts and Rules Based Order be damned.

  57. The White House planners didn’t think ahead enough to have a plausible denial ready. They really are this dim.

  58. Who gains most from blowing up the pipeline to Europe for Russian gas?

    The Russians? No. They just lost a big bargaining chip.

    Germany? No. They are losing bigly, just lost options.

    USA and Ukraine? Bingo. Blowing up the pipeline eliminates the possibility that Germany will go wobbly and cut a deal with Russia.

    That’s the way to bet.

    • Agree: JR Ewing, EddieSpaghetti
    • Replies: @Gordo
    @Moses


    Who gains most from blowing up the pipeline to Europe for Russian gas?
     
    Certainly not me as my investments have taken a nose dive since it happened.
  59. @Anon
    It's getting to the point where I really, really cannot stand Biden. He is quite simply the worst president in history, even worse than Obama, who was the runner-up. Biden is a loathsome Joker-like comic-book villian with a sick freak family. Biden either bungles everything because he's incompetent, or he manages occasional moments of competence in which he's evil.

    Even James Buchanan had a history of honest service before he screwed up as president. Biden, by contrast, was an utterly undistinguished zero before he clawed his way into the presidency.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Even James Buchanan had a history of honest service…

    He serviced William Rufus DeVane King, until recently the namesake of Seattle’s county.

  60. @Citizen of a Silly Country
    So, you're saying the Ukrainians unilaterally decided to sabotage pipelines incredibly important to Europe. It never dawned on them to run it by the Americans, whose support is the only thing keeping them afloat.

    And that after witnessing the Ukrainians going insanely rogue and threatening American relations with all of Europe, the Americans are just fine with it.

    Well, I can't argue with logic.

    Replies: @AnotherDad, @Loyalty Over IQ Worship

    What’s shocking is the lack of respect Sailer/Cochran have for their audience, such as it is. This makes anyone who repeats this story sound like a doofus.

    The irony is they pride themselves on loving IQ and hanging out with the Smart Fraction, but end up with only the most gullible, low IQ people believing them.

    As with Covid and the “Putler bad” trope, Sailer/Cochran have the same opinions as a vapid college girl.

    • Replies: @DH13
    @Loyalty Over IQ Worship

    Sailer lost a lot of credibility with his covid/vax antics. Now he is pushing the neocon narrative against Russia. Sad.

    , @AnotherDad
    @Loyalty Over IQ Worship


    What’s shocking is the lack of respect Sailer/Cochran have for their audience, such as it is. This makes anyone who repeats this story sound like a doofus.
     
    Loyalty, you are responding to a Citizen post where he either does not seem to be aware of or is ignoring the basic facts:
    -- there are the long existing pipelines that run through Ukraine/Poland
    -- far from "critical to Europe", there wasn't much/any gas flowing through Nordstream 1 because the Russians cut it off (claiming operational issues, then inability to get a turbine because of sanctions) and Nordstream 2 has never been operational
    -- Nordstream was a controversial project opposed by institutional "Europe" precisely because of these "split the team" issues
    All of which suggest perfectly plausible motive for Ukraine or Poland.

    And you're saying Sailer's a doofus because he's speculating while actually understanding these basic facts, which Citizen apparently does not.

    Now, who did it ... hell if I know.
    , @Citizen of a Silly Country
    @Loyalty Over IQ Worship

    Yeah, Covid was odd, but you could give Steve a pass given his age and previous health issues.

    But Steve's recent turns are more disturbing. First, it was Putin is Hitler. Now, this. And all of that on top of his long-standing hostility toward whites thinking of themselves as a group and defending themselves - as every other group does.

    Obviously, Steve isn't a gatekeeper, but he's increasingly showing that he has dramatically different views on the world than many, if not most, of his gentile readers.

    Obviously, having different views isn't the issue. It's his shabby defense of those views - or lack thereof in the the case of white identity politics - that's the problem. Steve is proving to be much less of a thinker than we gave him credit for.

    Replies: @Ron Unz

  61. It’s obviously the Republicans, who are trying to get our cities blown up before the Soros crime wave makes White blue voters flee to red areas.

  62. @newrouter
    "And then some more about global warming."

    They'll going to need alot of global warming this winter in Europe.

    Replies: @Old Prude

    choice comment!

  63. Like most of us, I have no evidence as to the event and have only a fuzzy grasp of possible motivations. We’ll just have to wait and then we’ll know or we won’t know, if it drops from the news.

    What I do know is all the histrionics about the methane release being a climate change emergency is BS.

    The pumped flow through the four lines is zip. What is being released from the three breached lines is what’s call “line pack.” The lines were maintained at some reasonable compression – I’ve heard 7 bars (7 X 14.7 psi.) That would oppose seawater in-leakage and would be not worthwhile to extract. The pipes are maybe 1,000 mile long each. That’s a lot of methane certainly, but it pales compared to the natural and man-made methane releases into the atmosphere we see as a matter of course. Cow flatulence, well flaring incomplete combustion, pipe leaks, extinguished pilot lights, etc etc.

    News organizations – piling fears upon fears.

  64. “Russia doesn’t have the ability to blow up the pipeline”.
    Earlier this year:”Russian superweapons will crush the U.S. military and bring down Globohomo”!

    • Disagree: YetAnotherAnon
    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    @Redneck farmer

    I'm sure Russia has the ability (though no motive) to blow up the pipeline - but in an obvious and spectacular way, by missile or airstrike.

    What it doesn't have is the ability to do it by stealth. The whole Baltic, and especially the international water route used (inter alia) by the Russian Baltic Fleet (based at Kaliningrad and Kronstadt) is heavily monitored - microphones and sensors all over the place. It's pretty shallow so getting to the seabed's no problemo, and there are lots of guys around with underwater expertise due to the oil and gas industries.

    What I'm unsure of is how these sensors work together and who's in operational control of them.

    So I'm guessing that Denmark and Sweden should have the data to actually work out whodunnit - if they really want to find out, and if it doesn't transpire that the sensors in that area were mysteriously turned off during the relevant period - like the cameras at the time Epstein was suicided/taken to Israel.

    Steve doesn't seem to want to start from "Cui bono?".

    Short term winners, USA (and a bit for Israel, who are drilling for gas in areas claimed by Lebanon and planning liquefaction plants).

    Short term losers - Russia and especially Germany and Europe.

    Long term winners - China - all that lovely Russian energy heading their way.

    Long term losers - Europe and perhaps USA too, as Mackinder's World Island comes closer.

    I wish I could convince Steve that Russia are going to win this war, despite any number of HIMARS. China may not want to upset their export trade to the US too much, but this is almost as existential for them as for Russia, in that they know if Russia goes, they are next on the list AND they would lose a big energy supplier.

    And it was all so unnecessary. Keep NATO out of Ukraine and all would have been good. But Nuland and Co wanted something different.

    I used to laugh when Khomeini called the US "the Great Satan". But it turns out he had a point where their foreign policy was - and is - concerned.

    I just wondered - do the US subsidise European Green parties? That's what I'd do if I wanted to damage them. Look at Germany shutting its nukes.

    Replies: @vinteuil

  65. Anon[233] • Disclaimer says:

    As usual the daily mail has the best reporting on this, with some really nice graphics in maps:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11257689/CIA-warned-attack-Nord-Stream-pipes-WEEKS-ago.html

    They speculate on divers, torpedoes, and submarines, possibly with remote control detonation capability. They show the cross-section of the pipe and how thick the various layers are. They also show the locations of the two different explosions were about 50 miles apart.

    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    @Anon

    Mention of the Daily Mail reminded me of the long running discussion in the Brit media in the lead up to Brexit about the threat posed by "Polish plumbers". It turns out it's Polish divers they should have worried about.

  66. Who benefits? Obviously Poland. It seems that the Deep State
    is actively trying to raise the status of Poland (and Ukraine) at
    the expense of Germany and Russia. Resurrecting Poland to its
    former glory (through some version of the Intermarium project)
    would be the easiest way to weaken Germany and Russia, two of
    America’s (and Britain’s) fiercest enemies in Europe.

  67. @Anon
    A frequently appearing pattern when a mysterious, unsolved incident appears is:

    1. Experts and consultants offer commentary about how difficult or expensive perpetrating the incidence was.

    2. Experts list up a rogue’s gallery of suspects who just happen to be well known to the public, or at least to the experts.

    3. In the end, it turns out that some rando did it and it wasn’t that hard.

    E.g.: The high-tech weoponized anthrax that had a unique genetic signature turns out to just be anthrax that could have come from dozens of places. Or the Hollywood executive who was assassinated using the “double tap” technique by an elite hitman after sophisticated surveillance, but turns out to have been the hapless random victim of an illegal on a moped who wanted to snatch a purse.

    I wonder if this sabotage will end up something simple and unexpected. Perhaps the “triple explosion” was a single explosion that triggered a second and third, and maybe the initial explosion was a quality control flaw of some sort. For example. I’m not putting this forward as an actual theory, but as a hypothetical example of a general concept of how these things often go.

    We’ll find out eventually, or not, like the Dobbs leak.

    Replies: @Jack Armstrong

    The Dobbs leaker is known — it was Justice Thomas (by means of his wife for deniable plausibility).

    As for the Baltic Bombers, has anyone explored the possibility that the pipeline “attackers” may be the same “Wisconsin frat boy types” that attacked Althea Bernstein? They were both carried out by means of fire and stealth. And Wisconsinians are adept at cold weather and deep water operations. Like ice-fishing with a hand grenade. OPEN YOUR EYES !

    • Agree: Cool Daddy Jimbo
    • Thanks: Inquiring Mind
    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    @Jack Armstrong

    As for the Baltic Bombers, has anyone explored the possibility that the pipeline “attackers” may be the same “Wisconsin frat boy types” that attacked Althea Bernstein?

    Wouldn't the Hawaiian shirts be a dead giveaway though?

  68. @Loyalty Over IQ Worship
    @Citizen of a Silly Country

    What's shocking is the lack of respect Sailer/Cochran have for their audience, such as it is. This makes anyone who repeats this story sound like a doofus.

    The irony is they pride themselves on loving IQ and hanging out with the Smart Fraction, but end up with only the most gullible, low IQ people believing them.

    As with Covid and the "Putler bad" trope, Sailer/Cochran have the same opinions as a vapid college girl.

    Replies: @DH13, @AnotherDad, @Citizen of a Silly Country

    Sailer lost a lot of credibility with his covid/vax antics. Now he is pushing the neocon narrative against Russia. Sad.

  69. @Veracitor
    Well-known American correspondent in Russia, John Helmer, says the Poles did it (link).


    By John Helmer

    The military operation on Monday night which fired munitions to blow holes in the Nord Stream I and Nord Stream II pipelines on the Baltic Sea floor, near Bornholm Island, was executed by the Polish Navy and special forces.

    It was aided by the Danish and Swedish military; planned and coordinated with US intelligence and technical support; and approved by the Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki.

    The operation is a repeat of the Bornholm Bash operation of April 2021, which attempted to sabotage Russian vessels laying the gas pipes, but ended in ignominious retreat by the Polish forces. That was a direct attack on Russia. This time the attack is targeting the Germans, especially the business and union lobby and the East German voters, with a scheme to blame Moscow for the troubles they already have — and their troubles to come with winter.

    [more]

     

    Replies: @Oscar Peterson, @Arclight, @AnotherDad, @Peter Lund

    The operation is a repeat of the Bornholm Bash operation of April 2021, which attempted to sabotage Russian vessels laying the gas pipes, but ended in ignominious retreat by the Polish forces.

    Please tell me more about that imaginary operation that never happened.

  70. @allahu akbar
    I'm surprised white supremacists aren't considered suspects.

    Replies: @Woodpecker, @JR Ewing

    Two white guys in MAGA hats?

  71. @Anon
    As usual the daily mail has the best reporting on this, with some really nice graphics in maps:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11257689/CIA-warned-attack-Nord-Stream-pipes-WEEKS-ago.html

    They speculate on divers, torpedoes, and submarines, possibly with remote control detonation capability. They show the cross-section of the pipe and how thick the various layers are. They also show the locations of the two different explosions were about 50 miles apart.

    Replies: @Cagey Beast

    Mention of the Daily Mail reminded me of the long running discussion in the Brit media in the lead up to Brexit about the threat posed by “Polish plumbers”. It turns out it’s Polish divers they should have worried about.

  72. When it comes to US foreign policy, Steve seems to put down Occam’s Razor and go straight to that nice wooden block set of Occam’s Butterknives.

  73. @Thelma Ringbaum
    The one false word that spoils the otherwise good text is "Betray". Germany cannot "betray" the Ukraine because Germany is no ally of the Ukraine. There is no obligation on Germany or the Germans to help the Ukraine or to fight for it. Canada, sure is an Ally, US too. But not Germany.

    Germans are quite anal people that hate gas thieves. Now they will hate gas saboteours.

    Replies: @Hunsdon

    Thank you. The word “betray” leaped out at me, as well.

  74. Knowing little of these matters I can only naively guess that the NordStream pipelines were sabotaged by people who didn’t like the NordStream pipelines. (Motive)

    It would help if they had the naval assets available to carry out the attacks. Who maintains the ability to destroy pipelines and undersea cables as part of their arsenal is a total mystery. (Means)

    In closely observed narrow shallow waters who had vessels in place at the time? (Opportunity)

    These questions cannot be answered, we waste our time trying.

  75. I do not in any way shape or form think a Rag Tag Group of Ukrainian Knuckleheads could sabotage a gas pipeline

    Steve’s entire assumption is that ‘anyone with a 90+ IQ could do it’

    Umm…

    No?

    • Agree: Gordo
  76. I think the smoking gun was that it was in Danish Waters

    Denmark is essentially a U.S. State, especially under Mette Frederiksen

    And do not underestimate how many Israelis are in Denmark

    Denmark is allowed to diverge on immigration and the vaccine ONLY BECAUSE it is so completely under the thumb of the U.S.

    Danish Intelligence is American Intelligence

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    @Thoughts

    And do not underestimate how many Israelis are in Denmark

    Now that's more like it! How many Israelis are in Denmark, pray tell? There are approx. 6,000 Jews in Denmark total.

    Replies: @Jack D

  77. @JR Ewing
    Regardless of who did it - and I'm still not convinced it wasn't the US or the UK - American journalists cheering it on because it increases the likelihood of the war continuing, is absolutely obscene.

    Russia sucks. Ukraine sucks. Germany sucks. They all suck.

    This war is none of our business. People are suffering and more people will suffer further this winter now that this pipeline has been destroyed and the possibility of the resumption of gas deliveries is gone.

    The suffering of Americans is all I care about - and all our overlord ruling class should care about - but they are much more interested in sticking their nose into foreign conflicts because they want to increase their power and their wealth.

    We are inching towards the brink and our supposedly independent media is cheering the oncoming annihilation.

    Replies: @JimB, @Thoughts, @Herbert R. Tarlek, Jr., @Captain Tripps

    You should care.

    The fact that a white slavic population is seen by the globalist classes as expendable

    Means they believe you are expendable

    Americans motto should be ‘Foster peace between Ukraine and Russia now, to stop the slaughter of Americans later’

    If it isn’t obvious that Slaughtering Americans is where this is going, I can’t help you

  78. To bad NATO member Denmark’s Bornholm island is not bristling with radar and all kinds of advanced sensors……just kidding ,it is. Don’t worry ,it is known who did it.

  79. @Redneck farmer
    "Russia doesn't have the ability to blow up the pipeline".
    Earlier this year:"Russian superweapons will crush the U.S. military and bring down Globohomo"!

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon

    I’m sure Russia has the ability (though no motive) to blow up the pipeline – but in an obvious and spectacular way, by missile or airstrike.

    What it doesn’t have is the ability to do it by stealth. The whole Baltic, and especially the international water route used (inter alia) by the Russian Baltic Fleet (based at Kaliningrad and Kronstadt) is heavily monitored – microphones and sensors all over the place. It’s pretty shallow so getting to the seabed’s no problemo, and there are lots of guys around with underwater expertise due to the oil and gas industries.

    What I’m unsure of is how these sensors work together and who’s in operational control of them.

    So I’m guessing that Denmark and Sweden should have the data to actually work out whodunnit – if they really want to find out, and if it doesn’t transpire that the sensors in that area were mysteriously turned off during the relevant period – like the cameras at the time Epstein was suicided/taken to Israel.

    Steve doesn’t seem to want to start from “Cui bono?”.

    Short term winners, USA (and a bit for Israel, who are drilling for gas in areas claimed by Lebanon and planning liquefaction plants).

    Short term losers – Russia and especially Germany and Europe.

    Long term winners – China – all that lovely Russian energy heading their way.

    Long term losers – Europe and perhaps USA too, as Mackinder’s World Island comes closer.

    I wish I could convince Steve that Russia are going to win this war, despite any number of HIMARS. China may not want to upset their export trade to the US too much, but this is almost as existential for them as for Russia, in that they know if Russia goes, they are next on the list AND they would lose a big energy supplier.

    And it was all so unnecessary. Keep NATO out of Ukraine and all would have been good. But Nuland and Co wanted something different.

    I used to laugh when Khomeini called the US “the Great Satan”. But it turns out he had a point where their foreign policy was – and is – concerned.

    I just wondered – do the US subsidise European Green parties? That’s what I’d do if I wanted to damage them. Look at Germany shutting its nukes.

    • Thanks: Gordo
    • Replies: @vinteuil
    @YetAnotherAnon


    it was all so unnecessary. Keep NATO out of Ukraine and all would have been good. But Nuland and Co wanted something different.

    I used to laugh when Khomeini called the US “the Great Satan”. But it turns out he had a point
     
    No kidding.
  80. @Moses
    Who gains most from blowing up the pipeline to Europe for Russian gas?

    The Russians? No. They just lost a big bargaining chip.

    Germany? No. They are losing bigly, just lost options.

    USA and Ukraine? Bingo. Blowing up the pipeline eliminates the possibility that Germany will go wobbly and cut a deal with Russia.

    That's the way to bet.

    Replies: @Gordo

    Who gains most from blowing up the pipeline to Europe for Russian gas?

    Certainly not me as my investments have taken a nose dive since it happened.

  81. There are “theories”? Aw cut it out.

    There’s no question “we” did it–the only question I have is what exactly does that mean now? Who exactly is responsible? Joe Biden? C’mon, man… There is no accountability because the president’s a vegetable and that suits the people driving this insane policy fine.

    Well there’s one other question I have: was it a rogue element out of the US deep state? Probably not, because this was a large and sophisticated operation–which is why it’s not the Poles, who won’t take a shit without US permission anyhow, or anyone else.

    But still, this world-historic fait accompli may have been visited upon the US by one of our own deep state factions.

  82. Caught by surprise without pre-arranged talking points?
    Or maybe they’ve empirically established that the American public will tolerate any incoherent response from top of mind of this White House?

  83. @JimB
    @JR Ewing

    Fake elections have consequences. Joe’s fraudulent 81 million votes stuffed into ghetto ballot boxes brought us to this moment in history.

    Replies: @J.Ross

    Agree. Thinking about the Hunter laptop, which could have warned the normies that Biden is a Chinese employee and shown his deep corrupt dealings in Ukraine, saving the world and numerous lives from this mess. The truth came out and the bad guys still won.

  84. @michael droy
    Sabotage of an undersea pipe I suspect really does require a lot of knowledge. I can't see Ukraine doing it themselves - after all they don't seem to manage the tanks and artillery given them without a great deal of "mercenary" assistance.

    But the big thing is who is this targeted against?
    Not so much Cui Bono as who loses. And that is certainly Germany and any part of Germany or Europe that was considering dropping sanctions and buying more Russia gas.
    Note here that the US does not sanction US oil and gas, it just puts pressure on Europe to do so.

    And who is fighting a war against Germany? There is a growing view that the whole Ukraine adventure has always been an attack on Germany and EU rather than on Russia which spent 8 years making itself resilient enough to any sanctions attack and really has been unharmed by the Economic war (predictable but not predicted). It is equally presumed that the list of grievances Russia raised in December were genuine, and that Russia has no base empirical motive to just grab land (it could have grabbed Georgia in 2008 or half Ukraine in 2014 had it wished).

    My view for a long time is that come US trading block vs China trading block the big threat to US is a Europe that wants to trade both ways. Ukraine is about preventing Europe doing that by creating mayhem on the Europe/Asia border (the fighting would have been over in April without US/UK intervention to prevent Zelensky from negotiating a deal).
    So either US is attacking Germany for daring to agree NS2 or simply US is cutting Europe off from Asia and doesn't care about the consequences.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    “I can’t see Ukraine doing it themselves – after all they don’t seem to manage the tanks and artillery given them without a great deal of “mercenary” assistance.”

    Judging by battlefield results, the Ukrainians seem to be pretty competent and motivated white men when it comes to modern warfare.

    This operation doesn’t seem all that complicated. For example, you could buy a fishing boat anywhere in the Atlantic and staff it with your own fishermen and a handful of deep sea divers. You purchase undersea mining explosives somewhere, such as Belgium where they don’t ask too many questions. Heck, you could go to West Africa if needed. You sail it to the Baltic for the herring harvest. At night, you happen to drift over the pipeline, send your divers down, then move on before dawn. Repeat as needed. A week later when you are back at home, the timers go off.

    Any state along the North Atlantic could have pulled this off, but for the noncombatants it would be a sizable escalation and thus a big risk.

    There are two combatants: Russia and Ukraine. The argument that blowing up Russia’s own strategic pipeline would be in Russia’s interest seems strained to me. The argument that it would seem worth the risk to Ukraine, which is fighting for its national survival, seems pretty plausible.

    Occam’s Razor points toward Ukraine.

    • Agree: Not Raul
    • Disagree: JimB
    • Replies: @Loyalty Over IQ Worship
    @Steve Sailer

    Don't insult your readers. There is no chance Ukraine would go forward with an attack like this without US approval. The risk of losing tens of billions in aid, "mercenaries" and intelligence support is too great for them.

    Yes, they are brave and it's horrible the way you people encourage them to die for no reason, but on their own, this would have been over six months ago. What we've actually done is make sure the Ukrainian military suffered a horrible death count.

    The US and NATO was intimately involved in the military maneuver that was used for propaganda purposes to justify more aid. They'd be involved in this too.

    Replies: @ic1000, @Loyalty Over IQ Worship

    , @Thoughts
    @Steve Sailer

    Ukraine = the U.S.

    Who pays all the Ukrainian politicians' and military generals' salaries?

    U.S. Deep State pays their salaries from money the U.S. Politicians rob from Idaho Truck Drivers

    What weapons are those Ukrainian white men using to 'defend against' Russian white men

    Weapons America provides

    Replies: @J.Ross, @CMC

    , @Coemgen
    @Steve Sailer


    The argument that it would seem worth the risk to Ukraine, which is fighting for its national survival, seems pretty plausible.
     
    Goading the Russians into a declared war does not sound like a very plausible play for Ukranian national survival.

    Elements of the U.S. government goading the Russians into a declared war does seem like plausible next step towards martial law in the U.S.

    Isn't martial law just going to the next level after years of "climate crisis," pandemic, and "insurance policies" against MAGA?

    , @Bill B.
    @Steve Sailer

    I think Steve and most of the Americans on here are being far too modest. It was almost certainly the United States. Who else has the chutzpah and the reckless ambition?

    Ukraine does not gain anything it does not already have but risks much. Poland's dislike of the pipelines was originally commercial, not military, no? Russia:obviously not.

    Only the Americans are engaged in an all-out fight for the ruin of Russia and its excision from the European space. The others, not so much.

    Wasn't there an exactly appropriate US Navy task force in the area days prior to the explosions?

    , @Citizen of a Silly Country
    @Steve Sailer

    Steve's post reminds me of this great scene from Cheers.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbS2KSRUVHo

    , @Chrisnonymous
    @Steve Sailer


    Any state along the North Atlantic could have pulled this off...
     
    Reasonable, but pulled it off without being detected? If the US warned Germany 2 weeks ago about the attack, why weren't they monitoring the area?

    but for the noncombatants it would be a sizable escalation and thus a big risk
     
    Not at all. That's part of the beauty of NATO. Pretty much any member can undertake clandestine operations and be protected from retaliation by the umbrella. Say Poland did it and Russia knew. What are they gonna do about it?

    The argument that it would seem worth the risk to Ukraine, which is fighting for its national survival, seems pretty plausible.
     
    I don't know. The real "risk" here is angering their ally Germany, which would seem pretty dumb for them.

    Occam’s Razor points toward Ukraine.
     
    Also, you're quite wrong about "there are 2 combatants, so Occam says it was one". There are at least 3 combatants, as the USA is clearly fighting Russia by proxy. And some might say there are more than three, based on aid from other EU countries and stances taken such as Estonia and Latvia violating the rights of their Russian residents and Finland joining NATO.

    Why didn't Ukraine strike some of the other lines instead of Nordstream, which wasn't in use?


    J.Ross wrote:

    Caught by surprise without pre-arranged talking points?
    Or maybe they’ve empirically established that the American public will tolerate any incoherent response from top of mind of this White House?
     
    I think they did have talking points. They were the BS that JackD and company starting spewing about how Russia blew up its own pipeline to get out of its contractual obligations via force majeure. I saw from Ukrainian officials, I read from JackD and HA, and this morning I heard from my European co-workers too.
    , @Dmon
    @Steve Sailer

    "For example, you could buy a fishing boat anywhere in the Atlantic..."

    I'm told you can't beat Ray Epps Marine for full service support.
    When it comes to the crew, go with Mexicans. They're willing to do sh!tty manual labor jobs like this, plus they already have experience at this sort of thing. There's usually a bunch of them hanging around outside the Bornholm Home Depot.
    https://mexiconewsdaily.com/news/pemex-pipeline-theft-continues-to-soar/

    , @Gordo
    @Steve Sailer


    Judging by battlefield results, the Ukrainians seem to be pretty competent and motivated white men when it comes to modern warfare.
     
    And a lot of their intel and tech guys and special forces speak such tremendous English.
    , @Intelligent Dasein
    @Steve Sailer


    Judging by battlefield results, the Ukrainians seem to be pretty competent and motivated white men when it comes to modern warfare.
     
    This is the empty and deluded crowings of a man who just sold 8 units Mountain View to Harriett and blah blah Nyborg.
    , @Anon
    @Steve Sailer

    LOL - go ahead and start asking for money again, buddy.

    "Noticing"...lol.

    , @Pixo
    @Steve Sailer

    “ You purchase undersea mining explosives somewhere, such as Belgium where they don’t ask too many questions.”

    Really? Would you mind putting me in touch with your tight-lipped and undiscriminating Belgian underwater explosives guy? Happen to really need one right now for… purposes. My Ghenttish guy had an little mishap last year and, well, exploded underwater.

    , @JimB
    @Steve Sailer


    Occam’s Razor points toward Ukraine.
     
    Occam’s Razor points to the US. I sometimes wonder if Steve reads his fellow columnists on the Unz Review. Larry Johnson is the only guy doing a decent job covering the US proxy war against Russia and Germany.
  85. @Steve Sailer
    @michael droy

    "I can’t see Ukraine doing it themselves – after all they don’t seem to manage the tanks and artillery given them without a great deal of “mercenary” assistance."

    Judging by battlefield results, the Ukrainians seem to be pretty competent and motivated white men when it comes to modern warfare.

    This operation doesn't seem all that complicated. For example, you could buy a fishing boat anywhere in the Atlantic and staff it with your own fishermen and a handful of deep sea divers. You purchase undersea mining explosives somewhere, such as Belgium where they don't ask too many questions. Heck, you could go to West Africa if needed. You sail it to the Baltic for the herring harvest. At night, you happen to drift over the pipeline, send your divers down, then move on before dawn. Repeat as needed. A week later when you are back at home, the timers go off.

    Any state along the North Atlantic could have pulled this off, but for the noncombatants it would be a sizable escalation and thus a big risk.

    There are two combatants: Russia and Ukraine. The argument that blowing up Russia's own strategic pipeline would be in Russia's interest seems strained to me. The argument that it would seem worth the risk to Ukraine, which is fighting for its national survival, seems pretty plausible.

    Occam's Razor points toward Ukraine.

    Replies: @Loyalty Over IQ Worship, @Thoughts, @Coemgen, @Bill B., @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Chrisnonymous, @Dmon, @Gordo, @Intelligent Dasein, @Anon, @Pixo, @JimB

    Don’t insult your readers. There is no chance Ukraine would go forward with an attack like this without US approval. The risk of losing tens of billions in aid, “mercenaries” and intelligence support is too great for them.

    Yes, they are brave and it’s horrible the way you people encourage them to die for no reason, but on their own, this would have been over six months ago. What we’ve actually done is make sure the Ukrainian military suffered a horrible death count.

    The US and NATO was intimately involved in the military maneuver that was used for propaganda purposes to justify more aid. They’d be involved in this too.

    • Replies: @ic1000
    @Loyalty Over IQ Worship

    > There is no chance Ukraine would go forward with an attack like this without US approval.

    A client/proxy/dependent state can act contrary to their sponsor's interests. Serbia famously dragged Russia into the Great War; I'm sure readers could supply other examples.

    Perhaps the client keeps the secret, or maybe the sponsor finds out after the fact... "Okay, so we did it, are you gonna make things worse for Our Side by throwing us to the wolves?"

    In the saboteurs' favor (if they acted on behalf of a proxy or the Deep State), the US' Grownups In The Room are people of the caliber of Anthony Blinken and Lloyd Austin. Not exactly Worthy Opponents.

    , @Loyalty Over IQ Worship
    @Loyalty Over IQ Worship

    But isn't that harder to get away with these days with all the trillions spent on surveillance? It's just grasping at straws to deny the USA committed this horrible act.

    It also leads to the question, if it were true, why are we funding such loose canons in the first place? We should stop having anything to do with them. But then again, we overthrew an elected government to install a corrupt regime in the first place.

  86. @allahu akbar
    I'm surprised white supremacists aren't considered suspects.

    Replies: @Woodpecker, @JR Ewing

    I’m surprised white supremacists aren’t considered suspects.

    The western media thinks Russia is nothing but gay-hating “white supremacists”, so in away they are.

  87. @Steve Sailer
    @michael droy

    "I can’t see Ukraine doing it themselves – after all they don’t seem to manage the tanks and artillery given them without a great deal of “mercenary” assistance."

    Judging by battlefield results, the Ukrainians seem to be pretty competent and motivated white men when it comes to modern warfare.

    This operation doesn't seem all that complicated. For example, you could buy a fishing boat anywhere in the Atlantic and staff it with your own fishermen and a handful of deep sea divers. You purchase undersea mining explosives somewhere, such as Belgium where they don't ask too many questions. Heck, you could go to West Africa if needed. You sail it to the Baltic for the herring harvest. At night, you happen to drift over the pipeline, send your divers down, then move on before dawn. Repeat as needed. A week later when you are back at home, the timers go off.

    Any state along the North Atlantic could have pulled this off, but for the noncombatants it would be a sizable escalation and thus a big risk.

    There are two combatants: Russia and Ukraine. The argument that blowing up Russia's own strategic pipeline would be in Russia's interest seems strained to me. The argument that it would seem worth the risk to Ukraine, which is fighting for its national survival, seems pretty plausible.

    Occam's Razor points toward Ukraine.

    Replies: @Loyalty Over IQ Worship, @Thoughts, @Coemgen, @Bill B., @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Chrisnonymous, @Dmon, @Gordo, @Intelligent Dasein, @Anon, @Pixo, @JimB

    Ukraine = the U.S.

    Who pays all the Ukrainian politicians’ and military generals’ salaries?

    U.S. Deep State pays their salaries from money the U.S. Politicians rob from Idaho Truck Drivers

    What weapons are those Ukrainian white men using to ‘defend against’ Russian white men

    Weapons America provides

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @Thoughts

    This, it's well established in sources you will not see in the New York Times that we are in country, leading at the top and even at low levels, and providing personnel.

    , @CMC
    @Thoughts

    Good comment.

    Steve wrote:


    There are two combatants: Russia and Ukraine.
     
    Which just seems a total misapprehension of the overall situation. Fundamentally flawed. Ignores much.
  88. @Hernan Pizzaro del Blanco
    https://www.thedefensepost.com/2022/08/30/uk-mine-hunting-drones-ukraine/amp/

    The UK gave Ukraine 6 underwater drones last month. They Could they have been used by Ukraine to destroy the pipelines. They can reach a death of 100 meters.

    Replies: @ThreeCranes

    The smoking gun?

  89. The Ukraine as Lone Nut narrative has certain advantages. NATO and EU unity is preserved if Ukraine plays the patsy role. The problem is that Polish DNA is found all over the Gassy Knoll, not to mention US or UK fingerprints. Now these could indeed be “rouge” neocon elements of the US/UK establishment. Neocons are loving this war since either way it goes, one of its two historic enemies, Russia and Germany, will lose. What this means though is that the US is in indirect conflict with Russia, China, and the EU all at the same time. Ultimately a Eurasian power bloc will emerge, but in the mean time the US is doing all it can to attrite the EU power potential so that it will join the Eurasians as a bit of a cripple. What is happening is tantamount to the Darwin /Freud concept of the primal horde. The US is the primal father and the rest of the world’s nations are his frustrated sons, who will join together as the primal horde to destroy and eat Uncle Sam.

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    @Torn and Frayed

    Now these could indeed be “rouge” neocon elements of the US/UK establishment.

    That's as good a description of Ms. Nuland as any, I suppose.

  90. @Steve Sailer
    @michael droy

    "I can’t see Ukraine doing it themselves – after all they don’t seem to manage the tanks and artillery given them without a great deal of “mercenary” assistance."

    Judging by battlefield results, the Ukrainians seem to be pretty competent and motivated white men when it comes to modern warfare.

    This operation doesn't seem all that complicated. For example, you could buy a fishing boat anywhere in the Atlantic and staff it with your own fishermen and a handful of deep sea divers. You purchase undersea mining explosives somewhere, such as Belgium where they don't ask too many questions. Heck, you could go to West Africa if needed. You sail it to the Baltic for the herring harvest. At night, you happen to drift over the pipeline, send your divers down, then move on before dawn. Repeat as needed. A week later when you are back at home, the timers go off.

    Any state along the North Atlantic could have pulled this off, but for the noncombatants it would be a sizable escalation and thus a big risk.

    There are two combatants: Russia and Ukraine. The argument that blowing up Russia's own strategic pipeline would be in Russia's interest seems strained to me. The argument that it would seem worth the risk to Ukraine, which is fighting for its national survival, seems pretty plausible.

    Occam's Razor points toward Ukraine.

    Replies: @Loyalty Over IQ Worship, @Thoughts, @Coemgen, @Bill B., @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Chrisnonymous, @Dmon, @Gordo, @Intelligent Dasein, @Anon, @Pixo, @JimB

    The argument that it would seem worth the risk to Ukraine, which is fighting for its national survival, seems pretty plausible.

    Goading the Russians into a declared war does not sound like a very plausible play for Ukranian national survival.

    Elements of the U.S. government goading the Russians into a declared war does seem like plausible next step towards martial law in the U.S.

    Isn’t martial law just going to the next level after years of “climate crisis,” pandemic, and “insurance policies” against MAGA?

  91. @Wokechoke
    Russia, a country with a press ganged military that's being outfought by Grandpa Shevchenchuk with his soviet era SKS/Cossack indomitability; that can also slip expertly into waters controlled by Denmark over watched by Poland, Germany and Sweden and ultimately the USN, undetected. These new conscripts are dynamite frogmen!

    Replies: @Dr. Awkward, Professor of Palindromes, @JR Ewing

    The Baltic is notoriously shallow and full of islands and chokepoints and therefore easy to surveil. It’s also surrounded by NATO (or NATO friendly) countries on three sides. Hence during the Cold War, the Soviets ran their Atlantic navy and submarines out of Murmansk, on the Arctic coast.

    Point being, the Russians aren’t sneaking in undetected and then sneaking back out. And neither is anyone else without permission from the NATO (and ultimately, the US).

    The only semi-plausible theory I’ve heard for the Russians to be able to do it would be with a vessel inside the pipeline itself (referred to in the business as a “pig”), basically a drone from the inside.

    The problem with that is that in a gas pipeline, the pig is propelled by the pressure of the gas itself and can only move in one direction. If gas isn’t moving through the pipe and coming out the other side, then the pig isn’t moving, either. And even if the Russians had a way to do it, the Germans would notice something going on from the downstream side with pressure variations and vibrations and the like.

    This brings up another point: I’ve seen in some places (not necessarily here) that the whole thing is a false flag because the pipes weren’t operating and therefore there shouldn’t have been any gas inside to vent. So, somehow the giant gas bubbles are part of the ruse.

    This is a totally fallacious argument, because it’s standard operating procedure for maintenance and upkeep reasons to keep gas pipelines pressurized with “line pack” even when product isn’t being shipped. Keeping it empty for long periods of time, as it’s not designed to be, could cause it to start to deteriorate and fail more quickly. (irony, I know)

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @JR Ewing

    There are no trading or fishing vessels in the Baltic?

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @JR Ewing, @Dr. Awkward, Professor of Palindromes, @Chrisnonymous

  92. @Loyalty Over IQ Worship
    @Steve Sailer

    Don't insult your readers. There is no chance Ukraine would go forward with an attack like this without US approval. The risk of losing tens of billions in aid, "mercenaries" and intelligence support is too great for them.

    Yes, they are brave and it's horrible the way you people encourage them to die for no reason, but on their own, this would have been over six months ago. What we've actually done is make sure the Ukrainian military suffered a horrible death count.

    The US and NATO was intimately involved in the military maneuver that was used for propaganda purposes to justify more aid. They'd be involved in this too.

    Replies: @ic1000, @Loyalty Over IQ Worship

    > There is no chance Ukraine would go forward with an attack like this without US approval.

    A client/proxy/dependent state can act contrary to their sponsor’s interests. Serbia famously dragged Russia into the Great War; I’m sure readers could supply other examples.

    Perhaps the client keeps the secret, or maybe the sponsor finds out after the fact… “Okay, so we did it, are you gonna make things worse for Our Side by throwing us to the wolves?”

    In the saboteurs’ favor (if they acted on behalf of a proxy or the Deep State), the US’ Grownups In The Room are people of the caliber of Anthony Blinken and Lloyd Austin. Not exactly Worthy Opponents.

  93. @JR Ewing
    @Wokechoke

    The Baltic is notoriously shallow and full of islands and chokepoints and therefore easy to surveil. It's also surrounded by NATO (or NATO friendly) countries on three sides. Hence during the Cold War, the Soviets ran their Atlantic navy and submarines out of Murmansk, on the Arctic coast.

    Point being, the Russians aren't sneaking in undetected and then sneaking back out. And neither is anyone else without permission from the NATO (and ultimately, the US).

    The only semi-plausible theory I've heard for the Russians to be able to do it would be with a vessel inside the pipeline itself (referred to in the business as a "pig"), basically a drone from the inside.

    The problem with that is that in a gas pipeline, the pig is propelled by the pressure of the gas itself and can only move in one direction. If gas isn't moving through the pipe and coming out the other side, then the pig isn't moving, either. And even if the Russians had a way to do it, the Germans would notice something going on from the downstream side with pressure variations and vibrations and the like.

    This brings up another point: I've seen in some places (not necessarily here) that the whole thing is a false flag because the pipes weren't operating and therefore there shouldn't have been any gas inside to vent. So, somehow the giant gas bubbles are part of the ruse.

    This is a totally fallacious argument, because it's standard operating procedure for maintenance and upkeep reasons to keep gas pipelines pressurized with "line pack" even when product isn't being shipped. Keeping it empty for long periods of time, as it's not designed to be, could cause it to start to deteriorate and fail more quickly. (irony, I know)

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    There are no trading or fishing vessels in the Baltic?

    • Troll: Wokechoke
    • Replies: @Wokechoke
    @Steve Sailer

    Bornholm is a listening station. The Danes keep a garrison with Elint there to observe a Russian trawlers and subs like you are suggesting.

    The only way the Russians could have done this is the moment they built the pipeline. But that was done with German engineers anyway. So German engineers would have reported the placement of explosives.


    Stop Steve, you are discrediting yourself here.

    , @JR Ewing
    @Steve Sailer

    You are correct, small fishing and commercial boats are very hard to track. Ask all of those Cubans and Colombians who just float right up to the gulf coast every day and are never seen by the US coast guard because they can only see navy ships.

    , @Dr. Awkward, Professor of Palindromes
    @Steve Sailer

    Hey Ron,

    Any way for you to ban this sock puppet troll Steve Sailer to stop him from posting retarded comments on UR??

    , @Chrisnonymous
    @Steve Sailer

    This event is a great opportunity for you to make a blog post that references The Riddle of the Sands.

  94. A person can be smart in his own domain but stupid once he strays beyond it. If he trusts the mainstream media on controversial topics, then this stupidity becomes almost unavoidable:

    • Replies: @Wokechoke
    @Cagey Beast

    It’s more that he’s got his enemy and is making the facts fit a way to blame who he wishes to blame.

  95. Occam’s Razor points toward Ukraine as the perpetrator.

    But nothing Ukraine does to lengthen the war doesn’t go through Washington. And removing motivations for Germany to seek peace with Russia and stop playing a part in a proxy war on itself as much as Russia does just that. I’m not convinced that the Ukrainians are entirely willing enough to prolong this war, given their benefactors will throw them under the bus when they’re done with this proxy war, that they’d go out of their way to do this. It’s an incredible provocation not just to Russia but to Germany as well as Denmark and Sweden.

    Poland, however, has shown repeatedly that it will do things to attempt to escalate (To what end stage is never clear, it seems more ideological than rational) things to a shooting war with NATO. This first happened with the whole unilateral public announcement to give aircraft to Ukraine in a way that implied it was a NATO initiative that the US endorsed. This ultimately led to a humiliating moment for the US when Blinken had to assure the Russians this wouldn’t happen in a panic since Poland was just unilaterally escalating tensions without US oversight or control.

    The Poles have had much to say about NS2 and been very vocal in their disapproval including doing provocative naval shadowing of ships during it’s construction.

    Most importantly, why didn’t they take credit? Whomever did this considered it important to not be identified. The Ukrainians are in a total war with Russia, bombing NS2 wouldn’t matter at all for their relations with them, it changes nothing. And their relations with Germany? They have the Germans checkmated with this and the Germans are currently doubling down in sending weapons and have staked, along with the elites in lots of European countries, their reputation on defeating Russia. I think the Ukrainians would weight possible diplomatic fallout as less important than taking credit for this, they need victory narratives.

    The Poles seem very antsy during all this, like they’re disappointed they can’t be doing more and the devil makes work for idle hands. But doing something like this to a major industrial asset of Germany, a neighbour, EU and NATO partner? Yeah, Poland would prefer to keep it quiet and have plausible deniability. Nobody likes a wildcard, especially when nuclear war is on the line.

    It also adds more to the strange statement from Blinken that ‘it’s in no one’s interest’ to do this. Which seems like a warning to the perpetrator to knock it off. Why did Sikorski immediately assume the US had done this? Was it something that was discussed by the Polish and US governments as something that could be done during his time in cabinet? Did Blinken recognise the blast points as from a plan he’d seen before? It seems like Poland going rogue again (Or collaborating with Ukraine) and potentially stoking an intra-NATO crisis with Germany is a bigger ‘it’s in no one’s interest’ situation than Ukraine hitting NS2 on their own, which would come with a lot less fallout. The US wants NS2 gone too and what’s the fallout from Ukraine doing this? Russia escalating on them? That’s also music to neocon ears.

  96. @Loyalty Over IQ Worship
    @Steve Sailer

    Don't insult your readers. There is no chance Ukraine would go forward with an attack like this without US approval. The risk of losing tens of billions in aid, "mercenaries" and intelligence support is too great for them.

    Yes, they are brave and it's horrible the way you people encourage them to die for no reason, but on their own, this would have been over six months ago. What we've actually done is make sure the Ukrainian military suffered a horrible death count.

    The US and NATO was intimately involved in the military maneuver that was used for propaganda purposes to justify more aid. They'd be involved in this too.

    Replies: @ic1000, @Loyalty Over IQ Worship

    But isn’t that harder to get away with these days with all the trillions spent on surveillance? It’s just grasping at straws to deny the USA committed this horrible act.

    It also leads to the question, if it were true, why are we funding such loose canons in the first place? We should stop having anything to do with them. But then again, we overthrew an elected government to install a corrupt regime in the first place.

  97. An anon on 4chan caught an iStevily clever point which I wish I could take credit for:
    Because on February 7th the illegitimate demented child molester said the quiet part out loud (like he always does and therefore should be expected to do), maybe it wasn’t the USA. Think about it: Bai Dien blabbing like that gives cover to anybody. Now, whoever did it, everyone will remember the Feb 7th gaffe.
    Granted though, the overwhelming evidence is that it was us and our allies. You can’t fake the US Sixth Fleet.
    Nevertheless this demonstrates once again that our leaders are like the prawns in District 9, morons who accidentally lucked into awesome power they did not invent, do not understand, and cannot control. Or: a child with a nuke.

  98. So near-simultaneous explosions breach three of the four NS1 and NS2 pipelines, leaving one undamaged.

    Even Bond Villains’ plans sometimes go awry, and detonator failures are not unknown for the other, more common type of Pipe Bomb.

    In the wake of this sabotage, dispatching drone mini-subs to examine the length of the remaining pipeline would seem to be a matter of some urgency.

    It would be interesting to know the Deep State’s posture on this. Russia-Done-It believers should be loudly and adamantly in favor of this taking this action, and quickly.

    Deep Staters with other priors (or in possession of additional information) might be obtusely silent on this question. “Huh? Why would anybody want to waste scarce resources on a wild goose chase like that? Besides, the presence of explosive underwater methane (like underwater firewood) make this far too risky to attempt. Robot Lives Matter!”

    • Thanks: YetAnotherAnon
    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @ic1000

    I eagerly awaited Hugh Hewitt's expected chortlegloat but he was wierdly silent on the matter. When he does pick it up, he will surely blame Putin, citing such evidence as "Putin is a bad actor," and "Putin wants to restore the Soviet Union." Apparently Florida is getting a hurricane for the first time in its history, thereby proving climate change, and Hewitt was totally devoted to that.

    , @Wokechoke
    @ic1000

    Remote controlled drone mini submarines. There won’t be failed detonations of bundled up pipebombs with alarm clocks on them.

    Replies: @ic1000

  99. @Thoughts
    @Steve Sailer

    Ukraine = the U.S.

    Who pays all the Ukrainian politicians' and military generals' salaries?

    U.S. Deep State pays their salaries from money the U.S. Politicians rob from Idaho Truck Drivers

    What weapons are those Ukrainian white men using to 'defend against' Russian white men

    Weapons America provides

    Replies: @J.Ross, @CMC

    This, it’s well established in sources you will not see in the New York Times that we are in country, leading at the top and even at low levels, and providing personnel.

  100. @ic1000
    So near-simultaneous explosions breach three of the four NS1 and NS2 pipelines, leaving one undamaged.

    Even Bond Villains' plans sometimes go awry, and detonator failures are not unknown for the other, more common type of Pipe Bomb.

    In the wake of this sabotage, dispatching drone mini-subs to examine the length of the remaining pipeline would seem to be a matter of some urgency.

    It would be interesting to know the Deep State's posture on this. Russia-Done-It believers should be loudly and adamantly in favor of this taking this action, and quickly.

    Deep Staters with other priors (or in possession of additional information) might be obtusely silent on this question. "Huh? Why would anybody want to waste scarce resources on a wild goose chase like that? Besides, the presence of explosive underwater methane (like underwater firewood) make this far too risky to attempt. Robot Lives Matter!"

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Wokechoke

    I eagerly awaited Hugh Hewitt’s expected chortlegloat but he was wierdly silent on the matter. When he does pick it up, he will surely blame Putin, citing such evidence as “Putin is a bad actor,” and “Putin wants to restore the Soviet Union.” Apparently Florida is getting a hurricane for the first time in its history, thereby proving climate change, and Hewitt was totally devoted to that.

  101. @Cagey Beast
    A person can be smart in his own domain but stupid once he strays beyond it. If he trusts the mainstream media on controversial topics, then this stupidity becomes almost unavoidable:

    https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1575203891620110337

    Replies: @Wokechoke

    It’s more that he’s got his enemy and is making the facts fit a way to blame who he wishes to blame.

  102. @Steve Sailer
    @JR Ewing

    There are no trading or fishing vessels in the Baltic?

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @JR Ewing, @Dr. Awkward, Professor of Palindromes, @Chrisnonymous

    Bornholm is a listening station. The Danes keep a garrison with Elint there to observe a Russian trawlers and subs like you are suggesting.

    The only way the Russians could have done this is the moment they built the pipeline. But that was done with German engineers anyway. So German engineers would have reported the placement of explosives.

    Stop Steve, you are discrediting yourself here.

  103. @Dnought

    doesn’t (yet) have terribly persuasive arguments for why the Russians would blow up their own strategic assets other than that they’re Russians so they are always doing stuff that doesn’t make any sense.
     


    If that's the best they can do, it's really sad. To say that's not a "terribly persuasive argument(s)" is a massive understatement. For what should be obvious reasons.

    The iconic Solzhenitsyn "We know they are lying...." quote comes to mind more and more often these days.

    Replies: @Cool Daddy Jimbo

    The iconic Solzhenitsyn “We know they are lying….” quote comes to mind more and more often these days.

    Hell, you don’t even need an intellectual giant any more.

    “I know you lie
    ‘Cause your lips are moving”

    -Meghan Trainor

  104. @Trelane
    The French, possibly Kerguelen extremists.

    About as good as any theory right now.

    Replies: @Cool Daddy Jimbo

    The French, possibly Kerguelen extremists.

    About as good as any theory right now.

    I’m going with Basque separatists. Why? Why not?

  105. @ic1000
    So near-simultaneous explosions breach three of the four NS1 and NS2 pipelines, leaving one undamaged.

    Even Bond Villains' plans sometimes go awry, and detonator failures are not unknown for the other, more common type of Pipe Bomb.

    In the wake of this sabotage, dispatching drone mini-subs to examine the length of the remaining pipeline would seem to be a matter of some urgency.

    It would be interesting to know the Deep State's posture on this. Russia-Done-It believers should be loudly and adamantly in favor of this taking this action, and quickly.

    Deep Staters with other priors (or in possession of additional information) might be obtusely silent on this question. "Huh? Why would anybody want to waste scarce resources on a wild goose chase like that? Besides, the presence of explosive underwater methane (like underwater firewood) make this far too risky to attempt. Robot Lives Matter!"

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Wokechoke

    Remote controlled drone mini submarines. There won’t be failed detonations of bundled up pipebombs with alarm clocks on them.

    • Replies: @ic1000
    @Wokechoke

    > Remote controlled drone mini submarines.

    Plausible. Commenters have suggested other plausible means, too.

    The question remains, why blast 3 of 4 pipes? That's an odd number.

  106. @p38ace
    I blame Spongebob and Patrick

    Replies: @Cool Daddy Jimbo

    I blame Spongebob and Patrick

    They certainly have the underwater knowhow.

  107. The Germans aren’t in a position to be good sports about all this:

  108. @Loyalty Over IQ Worship
    This is baloney. Everyone knows the USA did it.

    Is everyone noticing that Cochran and Sailer always come in to push some silly Narrative that the Usual Suspects want promoted? Johnny on the spot, here comes Cochran with his "theory" to muddy the waters about US complicity. How convenient.

    Same thing happened with Covid Lockdown Hysteria. They both aggressively pushed an agenda that was intended to get rid of Trump and normalize centralized power.

    This political activism is only reserved for certain issues. Notice, neither one of them have any passion for, you know, the destruction of their people.

    Replies: @Richard B

    Great comment! Couldn’t agree more.

    Everyone knows the USA did it.

    Yep! And I love how they all repeat in unison that anyone could blow up a pipeline.

    The repetition compulsion reminds one of those Tucker segments when he shows various members of the hostile elite in the MSM, academia, business and government all repeating the same talking point over and over again like the chattering of an idiot, only less interesting. Their lies just get sillier and dumber all of the time. As if Russia has no way at all of protecting something that important to them.

    In any event, it’s one thing when the MSM does it. But when Steve does it too. Well, I guess it just serves as another reminder that, as not a few have said about him, he really isn’t on our side – at all. Maybe they got to him. Or he was always on their side and his little fundraisers are for show, to give him some Alt Media credibility.

    Wouldn’t surprise me one bit.

    Notice, neither one of them have any passion for, you know, the destruction of their people.

    I didn’t quite get this last line. I guess I’m not sure who their refers to. The Russians?

    Anyway, again, great comment.

  109. This is why the pipelines had to be destroyed – Germans protesting, some demanding NS2 be reopened.

    (Most of the protesters carried no placards, I think I could just see two. But as the energy tourniquet tightens there was definitely a risk of Germany having to choose between Ukraine and her economy… can’t shut steelworks and chemical plants and switch the back on later.)

    • Replies: @MGB
    @YetAnotherAnon


    This is why the pipelines had to be destroyed – Germans protesting, some demanding NS2 be reopened.
     
    But according to the squad here, Russians didn't anticipate the emotional appeal of the issue of Ukrainian sovereignty amongst the West! The Germans and Czechs stand in solidarity with the ukes, and are all willing to freeze to death on that hill! I lived in Germany when stationed there in the early 90s. They could not stand the Poles then, and I highly doubt they have any deep sympathy for Ukraine now. "Er ist nur ein Polack", i was told when some shop keeper was tossing a Pole out onto the street. iirc it was poor schmuck looking at tools in a hardware store.
    , @Jack D
    @YetAnotherAnon

    I don't think I've ever seen such a glum looking group of demonstrators.

    These demonstrations have happened in a few place in Germany and ALL of them are in the former East Germany. I guess there is still some residual sympathy in E. Germany for Russia, esp. among the elderly. Some of the demonstrators may be Russians living in Germany as well.

    There is no media censorship in EU.

    Generally speaking, support for Ukraine in Germany remains high - over 70%. However, public opinion is polarized along the left-right spectrum:

    The share of those in favour of continued support include almost all Green voters (97%), 82% of the supporters of Chancellor Scholz’s Social Democrats (SPD), around three-quarters for the Liberals (FDP) and the Conservatives (CDU), less than 60% for the Left party and less than a third for the far-right AfD.

    https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy-environment/news/germans-resolved-to-support-ukraine-despite-gas-prices-as-fm-visits-kyiv/

    (The "Left" Party is the remnant of the former E. German Communist Party and is not really "left" in modern terms).

    Despite your (and Putin's) fondest hopes, Russia is not going to peel off any support for Ukraine with its energy blackmail tactics. If anything, these have only backfired and increased support for Ukraine. Russians are always clumsy with these efforts and they should recognize that they have no talent for them and stick to massed artillery attacks.

    , @Dennis Dale
    @YetAnotherAnon

    It appears aimed at Germany and has dumped on them and Europe a great big stinking fait accompli. You will support regime change in Russia and buy the LNG, Euroweenies.

    The European public should be up in arms demanding their countries re-establish sovereignty.

  110. @Steve Sailer
    @JR Ewing

    There are no trading or fishing vessels in the Baltic?

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @JR Ewing, @Dr. Awkward, Professor of Palindromes, @Chrisnonymous

    You are correct, small fishing and commercial boats are very hard to track. Ask all of those Cubans and Colombians who just float right up to the gulf coast every day and are never seen by the US coast guard because they can only see navy ships.

  111. @Steve Sailer
    @JR Ewing

    There are no trading or fishing vessels in the Baltic?

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @JR Ewing, @Dr. Awkward, Professor of Palindromes, @Chrisnonymous

    Hey Ron,

    Any way for you to ban this sock puppet troll Steve Sailer to stop him from posting retarded comments on UR??

  112. @Steve Sailer
    @JR Ewing

    There are no trading or fishing vessels in the Baltic?

    Replies: @Wokechoke, @JR Ewing, @Dr. Awkward, Professor of Palindromes, @Chrisnonymous

    This event is a great opportunity for you to make a blog post that references The Riddle of the Sands.

  113. @AnotherDad
    @Citizen of a Silly Country


    So, you’re saying the Ukrainians unilaterally decided to sabotage pipelines incredibly important to Europe. It never dawned on them to run it by the Americans, whose support is the only thing keeping them afloat.
     
    There are multiple pipelines. Nordstream 2 (brand new, never used) and Nordstream 1 (operational about 10 years, but gas deliveries curtained suspended by Russia over sanctions issues.) The older surface pipelines are the ones that go through Ukraine and Poland.

    Ukraine and Poland would like those to be the only pipelines in use to get gas to Germany/Western Europe, because
    a) when they are in use, then they can be supplied with gas
    b) then Putin can't easily work around them and use gas as lever to pry on Germany/Western Europe.

    Not really complicated, clearly in Ukraine's/Poland's interest that the only working pipelines to be ones that go through Ukraine/Poland.

    Not saying either of them did it. But they have "motive".

    Replies: @Citizen of a Silly Country

    You know what’s a bigger motive to Ukraine? Not biting the hand that feeds you.

    Ukraine doesn’t last a week without US support. There is no risk to Ukraine – even the Russians – larger than losing or even diminishing US support. Ukraine doesn’t take a $hit without US approval.

    Poland has more leeway, but, ultimately, is on the same boat. Without US support, their situation is dramatically more dangerous. They also would be crazy to pull off a stunt like this without US approval.

    Finally, the US has multiple huge motives to blow up those pipes.

    Look, this is basically like the mob. Low level mobsters don’t kill someone important without the boss’ approval. And if they do, they get killed themselves.

  114. In other words, it’s not who we can’t say it is.

    Same as with September 11th, 2001 and every other controversial event that somehow or other just happens to work in one group’s favor, while giving them the chance to do what they do best after the fact, ie; destroy the evidence, control the narrative, and enforce the law on anyone looking for evidence to question the narrative.

  115. @Steve Sailer
    @michael droy

    "I can’t see Ukraine doing it themselves – after all they don’t seem to manage the tanks and artillery given them without a great deal of “mercenary” assistance."

    Judging by battlefield results, the Ukrainians seem to be pretty competent and motivated white men when it comes to modern warfare.

    This operation doesn't seem all that complicated. For example, you could buy a fishing boat anywhere in the Atlantic and staff it with your own fishermen and a handful of deep sea divers. You purchase undersea mining explosives somewhere, such as Belgium where they don't ask too many questions. Heck, you could go to West Africa if needed. You sail it to the Baltic for the herring harvest. At night, you happen to drift over the pipeline, send your divers down, then move on before dawn. Repeat as needed. A week later when you are back at home, the timers go off.

    Any state along the North Atlantic could have pulled this off, but for the noncombatants it would be a sizable escalation and thus a big risk.

    There are two combatants: Russia and Ukraine. The argument that blowing up Russia's own strategic pipeline would be in Russia's interest seems strained to me. The argument that it would seem worth the risk to Ukraine, which is fighting for its national survival, seems pretty plausible.

    Occam's Razor points toward Ukraine.

    Replies: @Loyalty Over IQ Worship, @Thoughts, @Coemgen, @Bill B., @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Chrisnonymous, @Dmon, @Gordo, @Intelligent Dasein, @Anon, @Pixo, @JimB

    I think Steve and most of the Americans on here are being far too modest. It was almost certainly the United States. Who else has the chutzpah and the reckless ambition?

    Ukraine does not gain anything it does not already have but risks much. Poland’s dislike of the pipelines was originally commercial, not military, no? Russia:obviously not.

    Only the Americans are engaged in an all-out fight for the ruin of Russia and its excision from the European space. The others, not so much.

    Wasn’t there an exactly appropriate US Navy task force in the area days prior to the explosions?

  116. @Steve Sailer
    @michael droy

    "I can’t see Ukraine doing it themselves – after all they don’t seem to manage the tanks and artillery given them without a great deal of “mercenary” assistance."

    Judging by battlefield results, the Ukrainians seem to be pretty competent and motivated white men when it comes to modern warfare.

    This operation doesn't seem all that complicated. For example, you could buy a fishing boat anywhere in the Atlantic and staff it with your own fishermen and a handful of deep sea divers. You purchase undersea mining explosives somewhere, such as Belgium where they don't ask too many questions. Heck, you could go to West Africa if needed. You sail it to the Baltic for the herring harvest. At night, you happen to drift over the pipeline, send your divers down, then move on before dawn. Repeat as needed. A week later when you are back at home, the timers go off.

    Any state along the North Atlantic could have pulled this off, but for the noncombatants it would be a sizable escalation and thus a big risk.

    There are two combatants: Russia and Ukraine. The argument that blowing up Russia's own strategic pipeline would be in Russia's interest seems strained to me. The argument that it would seem worth the risk to Ukraine, which is fighting for its national survival, seems pretty plausible.

    Occam's Razor points toward Ukraine.

    Replies: @Loyalty Over IQ Worship, @Thoughts, @Coemgen, @Bill B., @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Chrisnonymous, @Dmon, @Gordo, @Intelligent Dasein, @Anon, @Pixo, @JimB

    Steve’s post reminds me of this great scene from Cheers.

  117. “Occam’s Razor points toward Ukraine as the perpetrator.”

    I don’t think so. Occam’s razor says that one must account for all necessities — that is, the best theory is one that accounts for ALL facts with the least assumptions; and it is a fact that Ukraine is the prime suspect on the grounds of motive, and therefore the actor most wary of being caught in the act. Especially when its very survival depends on continued support from Germany and other Western countries.

    Not that I can suggest a better theory.

  118. @Jack Armstrong
    @Anon

    The Dobbs leaker is known — it was Justice Thomas (by means of his wife for deniable plausibility).

    As for the Baltic Bombers, has anyone explored the possibility that the pipeline "attackers" may be the same "Wisconsin frat boy types" that attacked Althea Bernstein? They were both carried out by means of fire and stealth. And Wisconsinians are adept at cold weather and deep water operations. Like ice-fishing with a hand grenade. OPEN YOUR EYES !

    Replies: @kaganovitch

    As for the Baltic Bombers, has anyone explored the possibility that the pipeline “attackers” may be the same “Wisconsin frat boy types” that attacked Althea Bernstein?

    Wouldn’t the Hawaiian shirts be a dead giveaway though?

  119. @Thoughts
    I think the smoking gun was that it was in Danish Waters

    Denmark is essentially a U.S. State, especially under Mette Frederiksen

    And do not underestimate how many Israelis are in Denmark

    Denmark is allowed to diverge on immigration and the vaccine ONLY BECAUSE it is so completely under the thumb of the U.S.

    Danish Intelligence is American Intelligence

    Replies: @kaganovitch

    And do not underestimate how many Israelis are in Denmark

    Now that’s more like it! How many Israelis are in Denmark, pray tell? There are approx. 6,000 Jews in Denmark total.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @kaganovitch

    IF Israel wanted to do this (and I can't think of a single reason that they would), this is certainly the kind of operation that they are very good at executing. Since the arrest of Eichmann, they have shown an ability to execute covert operations in distant lands. You could see the Mossad divers arriving as tourists on false passports, renting a fishing boat, etc. By the time the explosions go off, the agents are safely back in Tel Aviv. (Steve has posited the same scenario for the Ukrainians but they have zero experience in executing covert foreign operations).

    However, Israel has gone out of its way not to piss off the Russians, whose semi-cooperation or forbearance they need in Syria. Israel has tried to remain as neutral as possible in this conflict even at the price of displeasure from other Western governments who are puzzled as to why Israel has not joined in the broad Western condemnation of Russia.

    Recently Russia has also initiated action to expel the Jewish Agency (which is an arm of the Israeli government) from Russia even though it has operated there during the entire post Soviet period. But the "court action" required to implement the expulsion has been mysteriously delayed (clearly on Putin's instructions). I assume because Putin feels that he has more leverage over Israel with the sword of Damocles hanging over its head. So the Israelis would have another reason not to piss off Putin at this time.

  120. @ThreeCranes
    @HA

    Not that I agree with myself, but to add to your point; we don't really know (yet) that the pipelines were breached. All we have is seismic recordings of explosions and evidence of gas escaping. What if the Russians opened some valves down there just to, as you say, divert attention away from other matters?

    Replies: @HA, @Jack D

    “What if the Russians opened some valves down there just to, as you say, divert attention away from other matters?”

    Agreed. And I’m not saying it’s certain that the Russians did this — I just find the outright dismissal by the friends of Putin that the Russians would ever bomb their own pipeline to be an abject plea to ignore the obvious. At this point, after the polonium and the nerve toxin and the poisoned umbrella, and dioxin, my first guess as to who is responsible for skullduggery like this is generally going to be Russians (or North Koreans), just like my first guess for where the latest deadly epidemic originated is going to be some Chinese or African wet market or factory farm. Those aren’t foolproof guesses, but outside of Unz-dot-com conspiracy rumour mills, they make for a pretty good start.

    And there are plenty of abusive ex-lovers who have shown no hesitation in burning down even their own houses once the restraining order was issued to make them unwelcome there. To the extent the Russians followed up the snub of their gas with an “ok, well then how do you like THIS?”, it is completely plausible to me. But as I said, I’m happy to wait for the investigation to unfold before actually pointing fingers.

    • Replies: @Alfa158
    @HA

    There are no underwater valves that can open and produce the seismic signatures reported by the Swedes as indicating 100kg explosive charges. And I’m more inclined to think that if it was the Russians, then the explosions would have failed to rupture the lines.
    The Russians were accused of poisoning the Skripals and Navalny, who all somehow miraculously survived toxins that could kill in microscopic doses. If the Russians are that incompetent then if they had tried to blow the gas lines they would have used a couple of M80 firecrackers. This was done by someone with more competence than that.
    The investigation will be conducted by the West and before it even starts I can already write the conclusion that will be reached: “It was probably the Russkies, but we can’t prove it.”

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon, @HA

    , @al gore rhythms
    @HA

    In your analogy the ex-lover is burning down somebody else's house if they can't live there any more. The pipeline is still Russian owned.

    I agree that the Russians have a track record of cloak and dagger actions on the international stage, but they don't usually deliberately shoot themselves in the foot in this way. Who does? The 'send out a warning' argument doesn't work for me, because if it was the Russians all Western nations will now be on alert to guard their own pipelines.

    If Russia is really on the ropes in Ukraine to the extent that we are led to believe, why give the West a shot across the bows in this way?

    I'd be interested to know if Steve and others who think like him actually believe America could be capable of doing something like this.

  121. We need to move on from the stupid theories. Everybody knows the United States did this. Denying that is masturbatory.

    Of far more importance is what will happen next. Europe is at most a couple of months away from unavoidable economic disaster. This is going to destabilize the entire world. There is no real predicting exactly what is going to fall apart first, nor how the Western world’s various clueless and incompetent governments are going to react in their desperation; but we can say without any doubt that it’s going to be bad. Here in the United States, I would not rule out the idea that the current administration will attempt a hostile takeover of the entire economy under the pretext that we must devote all our energy and raw materials to “saving Europe” and “defeating Russia.”

    The powers that be tried to engineer their own Pearl Harbor, but I don’t think it’s going to work. I think, paradoxically, this is going to result in Europe turning more and more towards Russia as a source of stability and strength. We may see, before the end of 2023, Germany simply “surrender” to Russia and become Eurasian partner country, while the rest of the West flounders around in an increasingly delusional post-imperial death spiral.

    • Replies: @MGB
    @Intelligent Dasein


    I would not rule out the idea that the current administration will attempt a hostile takeover of the entire economy under the pretext that we must devote all our energy and raw materials to “saving Europe” and “defeating Russia.”
     
    this is another making lemonade moment for the masters of chaos. they are going to sink the economies of germany and the uk, and there will be a fire sale of small businesses as they go under, an expansion of monopoly capital, with attendant buy ups of businesses large and small as the euro and pound sink. they are running out of opportunities to strip mine the economy to keep the ponzi scheme afloat. the covid op sank thousands of small businesses, and this is just more of the same. how many small shops in the uk have closed in the last 6 months due to energy inflation?
  122. @Steve Sailer
    @michael droy

    "I can’t see Ukraine doing it themselves – after all they don’t seem to manage the tanks and artillery given them without a great deal of “mercenary” assistance."

    Judging by battlefield results, the Ukrainians seem to be pretty competent and motivated white men when it comes to modern warfare.

    This operation doesn't seem all that complicated. For example, you could buy a fishing boat anywhere in the Atlantic and staff it with your own fishermen and a handful of deep sea divers. You purchase undersea mining explosives somewhere, such as Belgium where they don't ask too many questions. Heck, you could go to West Africa if needed. You sail it to the Baltic for the herring harvest. At night, you happen to drift over the pipeline, send your divers down, then move on before dawn. Repeat as needed. A week later when you are back at home, the timers go off.

    Any state along the North Atlantic could have pulled this off, but for the noncombatants it would be a sizable escalation and thus a big risk.

    There are two combatants: Russia and Ukraine. The argument that blowing up Russia's own strategic pipeline would be in Russia's interest seems strained to me. The argument that it would seem worth the risk to Ukraine, which is fighting for its national survival, seems pretty plausible.

    Occam's Razor points toward Ukraine.

    Replies: @Loyalty Over IQ Worship, @Thoughts, @Coemgen, @Bill B., @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Chrisnonymous, @Dmon, @Gordo, @Intelligent Dasein, @Anon, @Pixo, @JimB

    Any state along the North Atlantic could have pulled this off…

    Reasonable, but pulled it off without being detected? If the US warned Germany 2 weeks ago about the attack, why weren’t they monitoring the area?

    but for the noncombatants it would be a sizable escalation and thus a big risk

    Not at all. That’s part of the beauty of NATO. Pretty much any member can undertake clandestine operations and be protected from retaliation by the umbrella. Say Poland did it and Russia knew. What are they gonna do about it?

    The argument that it would seem worth the risk to Ukraine, which is fighting for its national survival, seems pretty plausible.

    I don’t know. The real “risk” here is angering their ally Germany, which would seem pretty dumb for them.

    Occam’s Razor points toward Ukraine.

    Also, you’re quite wrong about “there are 2 combatants, so Occam says it was one”. There are at least 3 combatants, as the USA is clearly fighting Russia by proxy. And some might say there are more than three, based on aid from other EU countries and stances taken such as Estonia and Latvia violating the rights of their Russian residents and Finland joining NATO.

    Why didn’t Ukraine strike some of the other lines instead of Nordstream, which wasn’t in use?

    J.Ross wrote:

    Caught by surprise without pre-arranged talking points?
    Or maybe they’ve empirically established that the American public will tolerate any incoherent response from top of mind of this White House?

    I think they did have talking points. They were the BS that JackD and company starting spewing about how Russia blew up its own pipeline to get out of its contractual obligations via force majeure. I saw from Ukrainian officials, I read from JackD and HA, and this morning I heard from my European co-workers too.

  123. @Torn and Frayed
    The Ukraine as Lone Nut narrative has certain advantages. NATO and EU unity is preserved if Ukraine plays the patsy role. The problem is that Polish DNA is found all over the Gassy Knoll, not to mention US or UK fingerprints. Now these could indeed be "rouge" neocon elements of the US/UK establishment. Neocons are loving this war since either way it goes, one of its two historic enemies, Russia and Germany, will lose. What this means though is that the US is in indirect conflict with Russia, China, and the EU all at the same time. Ultimately a Eurasian power bloc will emerge, but in the mean time the US is doing all it can to attrite the EU power potential so that it will join the Eurasians as a bit of a cripple. What is happening is tantamount to the Darwin /Freud concept of the primal horde. The US is the primal father and the rest of the world's nations are his frustrated sons, who will join together as the primal horde to destroy and eat Uncle Sam.

    Replies: @kaganovitch

    Now these could indeed be “rouge” neocon elements of the US/UK establishment.

    That’s as good a description of Ms. Nuland as any, I suppose.

  124. America did it to send Russia a signal–that we are willing and able to do crazy stuff that will hurt them, in order to warn them against using nukes in Ukraine.

    Putin is losing the war. His only choices are surrender (and lose power) or escalate. The first step of escalation is battlefield nukes to defend “Russian territory.” If Russia can use nukes to win the war, that creates a terrible precedent, immediately it encourages North Korea, Pakistan, Iran, China… Taiwan is lost within the year. America must prevent this, and best to prevent it now rather than to get on the escalation program–Russia nukes Ukrainian positions, America takes out the Black Sea fleet, Russia nukes a Ukrainian city, NATO destroys Kaliningrad, etc., etc… let’s not go there.

    The other option America has now is to sink a Russian nuclear sub, I’ve read that the Poseidon sub hunting planes have been very active off the East Coast recently. Maybe they’ve already done it–we’ll find out about it after the war is over. Thank goodness Biden is not the president… he’s a gigantic psyop on the world!

    Steve, please consider banning some of the more obnoxious and ignorant pro-Russian trolls… they’re too damaged by the trauma of not having been successful enough in America. I”m an immigrant, and yes, America is the best country in the world. Plenty wrong, to put it mildly, but let’s have a sense of perspective…

    For best up to date information about the war, these twitter accounts:

    wartranslated

    kamilkazani

    TrentTelenko

    RALee85

  125. After thorough investigation the Pentagram has determined is was an ISIS chemical weapon! Oh, wait wrong war. No, it was the Russkies for sure that teamed up with the 1/6 insurrection to blow the pipe! Ya, that’s the ticket!

  126. @Thoughts
    @Steve Sailer

    Ukraine = the U.S.

    Who pays all the Ukrainian politicians' and military generals' salaries?

    U.S. Deep State pays their salaries from money the U.S. Politicians rob from Idaho Truck Drivers

    What weapons are those Ukrainian white men using to 'defend against' Russian white men

    Weapons America provides

    Replies: @J.Ross, @CMC

    Good comment.

    Steve wrote:

    There are two combatants: Russia and Ukraine.

    Which just seems a total misapprehension of the overall situation. Fundamentally flawed. Ignores much.

  127. I can’t figure out why this is an important story. Just secure a large high-quality N95 mask around the pipe ruptures to put Nord 1 and Nord 2 back in business. Humanity learned so much from the SARS-Cov-2-COVID-19-coronavirus global pandemic: so let’s put it to good use already!

    n95-pipe-repair.jpg

  128. @ThreeCranes
    @HA

    Not that I agree with myself, but to add to your point; we don't really know (yet) that the pipelines were breached. All we have is seismic recordings of explosions and evidence of gas escaping. What if the Russians opened some valves down there just to, as you say, divert attention away from other matters?

    Replies: @HA, @Jack D

    I don’t think there are any valves where the explosions occurred, and there were in fact explosions recorded so it wasn’t just the Russians opening some valves.

    This is not to say that they could not have initiated the explosions themselves – as HA says, they are certainly not “above” doing nefarious stuff like this (although proof is still lacking so far and motives are unclear).

    As an interesting data point, each pipeline is in fact two pipes (a total of 4) and only 3 of the 4 were breached. This could have just been a failure of execution (in which case maybe there is an unexploded mine attached to the remaining pipe which might provide clues as to whose mine it was). Or perhaps, especially if the Russians did this, it was intentional that not all of the pipes were breached?

  129. @Steve Sailer
    @michael droy

    "I can’t see Ukraine doing it themselves – after all they don’t seem to manage the tanks and artillery given them without a great deal of “mercenary” assistance."

    Judging by battlefield results, the Ukrainians seem to be pretty competent and motivated white men when it comes to modern warfare.

    This operation doesn't seem all that complicated. For example, you could buy a fishing boat anywhere in the Atlantic and staff it with your own fishermen and a handful of deep sea divers. You purchase undersea mining explosives somewhere, such as Belgium where they don't ask too many questions. Heck, you could go to West Africa if needed. You sail it to the Baltic for the herring harvest. At night, you happen to drift over the pipeline, send your divers down, then move on before dawn. Repeat as needed. A week later when you are back at home, the timers go off.

    Any state along the North Atlantic could have pulled this off, but for the noncombatants it would be a sizable escalation and thus a big risk.

    There are two combatants: Russia and Ukraine. The argument that blowing up Russia's own strategic pipeline would be in Russia's interest seems strained to me. The argument that it would seem worth the risk to Ukraine, which is fighting for its national survival, seems pretty plausible.

    Occam's Razor points toward Ukraine.

    Replies: @Loyalty Over IQ Worship, @Thoughts, @Coemgen, @Bill B., @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Chrisnonymous, @Dmon, @Gordo, @Intelligent Dasein, @Anon, @Pixo, @JimB

    “For example, you could buy a fishing boat anywhere in the Atlantic…”

    I’m told you can’t beat Ray Epps Marine for full service support.
    When it comes to the crew, go with Mexicans. They’re willing to do sh!tty manual labor jobs like this, plus they already have experience at this sort of thing. There’s usually a bunch of them hanging around outside the Bornholm Home Depot.
    https://mexiconewsdaily.com/news/pemex-pipeline-theft-continues-to-soar/

  130. @Steve Sailer
    @michael droy

    "I can’t see Ukraine doing it themselves – after all they don’t seem to manage the tanks and artillery given them without a great deal of “mercenary” assistance."

    Judging by battlefield results, the Ukrainians seem to be pretty competent and motivated white men when it comes to modern warfare.

    This operation doesn't seem all that complicated. For example, you could buy a fishing boat anywhere in the Atlantic and staff it with your own fishermen and a handful of deep sea divers. You purchase undersea mining explosives somewhere, such as Belgium where they don't ask too many questions. Heck, you could go to West Africa if needed. You sail it to the Baltic for the herring harvest. At night, you happen to drift over the pipeline, send your divers down, then move on before dawn. Repeat as needed. A week later when you are back at home, the timers go off.

    Any state along the North Atlantic could have pulled this off, but for the noncombatants it would be a sizable escalation and thus a big risk.

    There are two combatants: Russia and Ukraine. The argument that blowing up Russia's own strategic pipeline would be in Russia's interest seems strained to me. The argument that it would seem worth the risk to Ukraine, which is fighting for its national survival, seems pretty plausible.

    Occam's Razor points toward Ukraine.

    Replies: @Loyalty Over IQ Worship, @Thoughts, @Coemgen, @Bill B., @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Chrisnonymous, @Dmon, @Gordo, @Intelligent Dasein, @Anon, @Pixo, @JimB

    Judging by battlefield results, the Ukrainians seem to be pretty competent and motivated white men when it comes to modern warfare.

    And a lot of their intel and tech guys and special forces speak such tremendous English.

  131. @HA
    @ThreeCranes

    "What if the Russians opened some valves down there just to, as you say, divert attention away from other matters?"

    Agreed. And I'm not saying it's certain that the Russians did this -- I just find the outright dismissal by the friends of Putin that the Russians would ever bomb their own pipeline to be an abject plea to ignore the obvious. At this point, after the polonium and the nerve toxin and the poisoned umbrella, and dioxin, my first guess as to who is responsible for skullduggery like this is generally going to be Russians (or North Koreans), just like my first guess for where the latest deadly epidemic originated is going to be some Chinese or African wet market or factory farm. Those aren't foolproof guesses, but outside of Unz-dot-com conspiracy rumour mills, they make for a pretty good start.

    And there are plenty of abusive ex-lovers who have shown no hesitation in burning down even their own houses once the restraining order was issued to make them unwelcome there. To the extent the Russians followed up the snub of their gas with an "ok, well then how do you like THIS?", it is completely plausible to me. But as I said, I'm happy to wait for the investigation to unfold before actually pointing fingers.

    Replies: @Alfa158, @al gore rhythms

    There are no underwater valves that can open and produce the seismic signatures reported by the Swedes as indicating 100kg explosive charges. And I’m more inclined to think that if it was the Russians, then the explosions would have failed to rupture the lines.
    The Russians were accused of poisoning the Skripals and Navalny, who all somehow miraculously survived toxins that could kill in microscopic doses. If the Russians are that incompetent then if they had tried to blow the gas lines they would have used a couple of M80 firecrackers. This was done by someone with more competence than that.
    The investigation will be conducted by the West and before it even starts I can already write the conclusion that will be reached: “It was probably the Russkies, but we can’t prove it.”

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    @Alfa158

    "The Russians were accused of poisoning the Skripals and Navalny, who all somehow miraculously survived toxins that could kill in microscopic doses. "

    Yes, it was remarkable how a "deadly nerve agent" killed exactly one person, an unfortunate woman with a drug and alcohol habit. Maybe Russian scientists aren't what they were.

    Put it this way, Israeli poisoning victims tend to stay dead, unless you have a couple of their agents in your cells.

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/begging-royal-mercy-how-israel-recovered-from-the-botched-mashaal-hit-25-years-ago/

    , @HA
    @Alfa158

    "And I’m more inclined to think that if it was the Russians, then the explosions would have failed to rupture the lines...".

    Or else it's yet another of the too-many-to-count stories of the bomb-maker who miscalculated, sometimes to the point of killing himself. Or else the Russians would have caused ruptures that would take no more than a few weeks to repair. Is there any evidence this was anything more serious than that?

    "The Russians were accused of poisoning the Skripals and Navalny, who all somehow miraculously survived toxins that could kill in microscopic doses."

    The spot where the Skripals were poisoned with Novichuk is still being blocked off as a biohazard. You could always oyster a few pounds to any of Putin's UK useful idiots (e.g. London Bob) to go there at night and lick the bench just to be sure.

    "I can already write the conclusion that will be reached: 'It was probably the Russkies, but we can’t prove it.'”

    In the case the Skripals, I have no trouble believing Putin is behind that, so by extrapolation I'm inclined to agree with you, but if there was indeed bungling of any sort to the extent that a bigger boom was created than the one initially planned, maybe there was also bungling that will help identify the perpetrators, so I'll wait for the post-mortem. Then again, if you're dismissing the evidence against the Skripal assassins, the other conclusion that we might well see is: "Yes, it's obvious that the Russians did it, but despite all the evidence uncovered, they and their lapdogs in the West still insist it is inconclusive."

    I will note that this is pretty handy in terms of serving as another internal rationalization for why the Russians must be more compliant with regard to mobilization: "See how NATO attacks our infrastructure as a blatant causus belli and then has the nerve to accuse us? Of course you must send your sons into the meat grinder -- what other response is there?" And all the while, other Putin trolls have been loudly proclaiming that the next bombs that Russia needs to set off should be over Berlin and be triggered by way of nuclear codes.

    In other words, just as happened with Bucha or any number of other examples Russian criminality, this is completely in line with their standard simultaneous two-pronged reply of 1) "We didn't do it." and 2) "We should have done even more of it."

  132. The logical argument that Russia is responsible for destroying NordStream is that Putin is sending a signal to his own people, the vacillating elites who want to back down and find common ground with the West. Putin is burning the bridges and saying there is no turning back, we are leaving the West for good, don’t think we will ever return to the status quo ante. Time to focus on a pipeline to China.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Peter Akuleyev

    This is certainly of a piece with the mobilization, the cutting of ties with all Western businesses and institutions, and so on. If you take a long view of Russian history, the country has a love-hate relationship with the West and flip-flops between opening its doors to Europe and then turning its back on Europe and insisting that it has its own unique Eastern culture. When the doors slam shut, those who were Western oriented often get purged or persecuted even though their Western orientation was once permitted or even promoted by the government. (Given this history, no one sane from the West should ever invest a cent in Russia - it's only a question of WHEN you are going to lose your whole investment).

    Now they are taking measures to stop people from leaving Russia but earlier in the war, Putin said "The Russian people will always be able to distinguish true patriots from scum and traitors [Western oriented liberals] and will simply spit them out like an insect in their mouth onto the pavement". We are clearly in one of those "slamming the door shut" phases.

    I remember visiting Paris not long after the fall of the Iron Curtain and being shocked to see all of the E. European tour buses that were visible on the streets of Paris - it was tangible proof that the curtain had opened. I fear that the curtain is coming down once again although I hope that it is only temporary - I don't think that Putin is going to be able to make isolationism work. The USSR (together with its satellites) formed a largely self contained economy (although they always bought/stole Western technology) but the satellites are gone and Russia has let various industries (first and foremost its chip industry) atrophy so that they are not going to be able to go it alone this time. Nor will the Chinese supply them in violation of Western sanctions because the Chinese are not ready to turn their back on the West.

  133. @Steve Sailer
    @michael droy

    "I can’t see Ukraine doing it themselves – after all they don’t seem to manage the tanks and artillery given them without a great deal of “mercenary” assistance."

    Judging by battlefield results, the Ukrainians seem to be pretty competent and motivated white men when it comes to modern warfare.

    This operation doesn't seem all that complicated. For example, you could buy a fishing boat anywhere in the Atlantic and staff it with your own fishermen and a handful of deep sea divers. You purchase undersea mining explosives somewhere, such as Belgium where they don't ask too many questions. Heck, you could go to West Africa if needed. You sail it to the Baltic for the herring harvest. At night, you happen to drift over the pipeline, send your divers down, then move on before dawn. Repeat as needed. A week later when you are back at home, the timers go off.

    Any state along the North Atlantic could have pulled this off, but for the noncombatants it would be a sizable escalation and thus a big risk.

    There are two combatants: Russia and Ukraine. The argument that blowing up Russia's own strategic pipeline would be in Russia's interest seems strained to me. The argument that it would seem worth the risk to Ukraine, which is fighting for its national survival, seems pretty plausible.

    Occam's Razor points toward Ukraine.

    Replies: @Loyalty Over IQ Worship, @Thoughts, @Coemgen, @Bill B., @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Chrisnonymous, @Dmon, @Gordo, @Intelligent Dasein, @Anon, @Pixo, @JimB

    Judging by battlefield results, the Ukrainians seem to be pretty competent and motivated white men when it comes to modern warfare.

    This is the empty and deluded crowings of a man who just sold 8 units Mountain View to Harriett and blah blah Nyborg.

  134. @kaganovitch
    @Thoughts

    And do not underestimate how many Israelis are in Denmark

    Now that's more like it! How many Israelis are in Denmark, pray tell? There are approx. 6,000 Jews in Denmark total.

    Replies: @Jack D

    IF Israel wanted to do this (and I can’t think of a single reason that they would), this is certainly the kind of operation that they are very good at executing. Since the arrest of Eichmann, they have shown an ability to execute covert operations in distant lands. You could see the Mossad divers arriving as tourists on false passports, renting a fishing boat, etc. By the time the explosions go off, the agents are safely back in Tel Aviv. (Steve has posited the same scenario for the Ukrainians but they have zero experience in executing covert foreign operations).

    However, Israel has gone out of its way not to piss off the Russians, whose semi-cooperation or forbearance they need in Syria. Israel has tried to remain as neutral as possible in this conflict even at the price of displeasure from other Western governments who are puzzled as to why Israel has not joined in the broad Western condemnation of Russia.

    Recently Russia has also initiated action to expel the Jewish Agency (which is an arm of the Israeli government) from Russia even though it has operated there during the entire post Soviet period. But the “court action” required to implement the expulsion has been mysteriously delayed (clearly on Putin’s instructions). I assume because Putin feels that he has more leverage over Israel with the sword of Damocles hanging over its head. So the Israelis would have another reason not to piss off Putin at this time.

    • Agree: Inquiring Mind
    • Thanks: Johann Ricke
  135. @Cagey Beast
    The Russians will be blamed by Washington no matter whether it's true or not. The EU and NATO will do the same.

    Notice how the Russians were blamed for shooting down that Malaysian Airlines jet over Ukraine but no one of importance seems to bring it up anymore, despite their love of blaming Russia for everything else. It makes me think the evidence just isn't there and people have been told to drop it.

    They'll try the same thing with this Nord Stream sabotage. They'll try to give it the Building 7 treatment but too many Germans will be freezing and going bankrupt to let it be memory holed.

    Replies: @Jack D

    Notice how the Russians were blamed for shooting down that Malaysian Airlines jet over Ukraine but no one of importance seems to bring it up anymore

    It’s widely understood that the Russians shot down the airliner – the exact details have been investigated by various authorities and are well known. The airliner was downed by a Buk surface-to-air missile launched from pro-Russian separatist-controlled territory in Ukraine. The Buk that was used originated from the 53rd Anti-Aircraft Missile Brigade of the Russian Federation and had been transported from Russia on the day of the crash, fired from a field in a rebel-controlled area and the launch system returned to Russia afterwards. No one seriously disputes that this is what happened. There are missile fragments and satellite photos and witness testimony and so on that constitute irrefutable proof.

    It is just not true that “no one of importance seems to bring it up anymore”. On 19 June 2019, the Dutch Public Prosecution Service charged four people with murder in connection with the shooting down of the aircraft: three Russians, Igor Girkin, Sergey Dubinsky, and Oleg Pulatov, and one Ukrainian, Leonid Kharchenko. The trial (in absentia) is ongoing and judgment is expected by the end of this year. Perhaps some future Russian government will turn over the criminals to serve their sentences.

  136. @Alfa158
    @HA

    There are no underwater valves that can open and produce the seismic signatures reported by the Swedes as indicating 100kg explosive charges. And I’m more inclined to think that if it was the Russians, then the explosions would have failed to rupture the lines.
    The Russians were accused of poisoning the Skripals and Navalny, who all somehow miraculously survived toxins that could kill in microscopic doses. If the Russians are that incompetent then if they had tried to blow the gas lines they would have used a couple of M80 firecrackers. This was done by someone with more competence than that.
    The investigation will be conducted by the West and before it even starts I can already write the conclusion that will be reached: “It was probably the Russkies, but we can’t prove it.”

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon, @HA

    “The Russians were accused of poisoning the Skripals and Navalny, who all somehow miraculously survived toxins that could kill in microscopic doses. “

    Yes, it was remarkable how a “deadly nerve agent” killed exactly one person, an unfortunate woman with a drug and alcohol habit. Maybe Russian scientists aren’t what they were.

    Put it this way, Israeli poisoning victims tend to stay dead, unless you have a couple of their agents in your cells.

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/begging-royal-mercy-how-israel-recovered-from-the-botched-mashaal-hit-25-years-ago/

  137. @Peter Akuleyev
    The logical argument that Russia is responsible for destroying NordStream is that Putin is sending a signal to his own people, the vacillating elites who want to back down and find common ground with the West. Putin is burning the bridges and saying there is no turning back, we are leaving the West for good, don't think we will ever return to the status quo ante. Time to focus on a pipeline to China.

    Replies: @Jack D

    This is certainly of a piece with the mobilization, the cutting of ties with all Western businesses and institutions, and so on. If you take a long view of Russian history, the country has a love-hate relationship with the West and flip-flops between opening its doors to Europe and then turning its back on Europe and insisting that it has its own unique Eastern culture. When the doors slam shut, those who were Western oriented often get purged or persecuted even though their Western orientation was once permitted or even promoted by the government. (Given this history, no one sane from the West should ever invest a cent in Russia – it’s only a question of WHEN you are going to lose your whole investment).

    Now they are taking measures to stop people from leaving Russia but earlier in the war, Putin said “The Russian people will always be able to distinguish true patriots from scum and traitors [Western oriented liberals] and will simply spit them out like an insect in their mouth onto the pavement”. We are clearly in one of those “slamming the door shut” phases.

    I remember visiting Paris not long after the fall of the Iron Curtain and being shocked to see all of the E. European tour buses that were visible on the streets of Paris – it was tangible proof that the curtain had opened. I fear that the curtain is coming down once again although I hope that it is only temporary – I don’t think that Putin is going to be able to make isolationism work. The USSR (together with its satellites) formed a largely self contained economy (although they always bought/stole Western technology) but the satellites are gone and Russia has let various industries (first and foremost its chip industry) atrophy so that they are not going to be able to go it alone this time. Nor will the Chinese supply them in violation of Western sanctions because the Chinese are not ready to turn their back on the West.

  138. I was also unaware that on the very same day as the new gas pipeline from Denmark to Poland bringing Norwegian gas to mainland Europe opened for business. So another gas route to Germany that has to transit Poland giving them even more leverage and control over Germany.

    And again, it does not seem likely that Ukraine has the expertise to pull this off on it’s own. Ukraine didn’t do this. But Poland has lots of the necessary assets nearby.

    Poland is the only suspect if you take Blinken’s words seriously and the Western media’s unease at this new development. (Certainly it is only a question of if the US was a collaborator or not, not if Poland was involved)

    The timing is also perfect, demonstrating that Poland has the will to do crazy stuff like this on NS2, then it could well pull all kinds of Russia-style ‘technical difficulty’ failures or stage strange unattributed sabotage on it’s own territory.

    This would also make the strange drone sightings that seemed to threaten the new Norwegian pipeline make sense too. They also are a vague threat to do the same to the Norwegian gas pipeline too.

    • Replies: @Altai
    @Altai

    https://twitter.com/javierblas/status/1574780608785653763

    The assessment is estimating 3 devices of each around 500kg of TNT equivalent were used and detonated simultaneously.

    The Ukrainians didn't just hire a fishing vessel and send some divers to do this on the cheap. They don't have the assets to do this. The Poles do.

    I don't think commentators in the US appreciate how crazy the Poles have been during all this or how deranged and irrational it's political class is in it's anti-Russian zeal.

    Replies: @AnotherDad

  139. @Altai
    I was also unaware that on the very same day as the new gas pipeline from Denmark to Poland bringing Norwegian gas to mainland Europe opened for business. So another gas route to Germany that has to transit Poland giving them even more leverage and control over Germany.

    https://twitter.com/PremierRP_en/status/1574722004124860416

    And again, it does not seem likely that Ukraine has the expertise to pull this off on it's own. Ukraine didn't do this. But Poland has lots of the necessary assets nearby.

    Poland is the only suspect if you take Blinken's words seriously and the Western media's unease at this new development. (Certainly it is only a question of if the US was a collaborator or not, not if Poland was involved)

    The timing is also perfect, demonstrating that Poland has the will to do crazy stuff like this on NS2, then it could well pull all kinds of Russia-style 'technical difficulty' failures or stage strange unattributed sabotage on it's own territory.

    This would also make the strange drone sightings that seemed to threaten the new Norwegian pipeline make sense too. They also are a vague threat to do the same to the Norwegian gas pipeline too.

    Replies: @Altai

    The assessment is estimating 3 devices of each around 500kg of TNT equivalent were used and detonated simultaneously.

    The Ukrainians didn’t just hire a fishing vessel and send some divers to do this on the cheap. They don’t have the assets to do this. The Poles do.

    I don’t think commentators in the US appreciate how crazy the Poles have been during all this or how deranged and irrational it’s political class is in it’s anti-Russian zeal.

    • Replies: @AnotherDad
    @Altai



    How strong is a Nord Stream pipe? Quite!

    The steel pipe itself has a wall of 4.1 centimeters (1.6 inches), and it's coated with another 6-11 cm of steel-reinforced concrete.
     

    The assessment is estimating 3 devices of each around 500kg of TNT equivalent were used and detonated simultaneously.
     
    Altai, I don't think you should believe every "assessment" on the Internet. Most of them are bozos.

    I'm not a demolition guy, but this is not the least bit persuasive. (To say the least.) You are talking about blowing through a few inches of concrete--more or less equivalent to my patio--and then cracking open a 1.6" thick steel pipe underneath. This isn't exactly battleship or even tank armor. It's simply not designed to be. (I remember driving along the Alaska pipeline a dozen years back and thinking some pissed off dude could really make a mess of this. A lot of our infrastructure relies on competent people not trying to screw things up. See 9-11.)

    Contractors, road builders use a few sticks of dynamite to blow out big rocks.

    I don't know what this blow-a-hole pipeline demo takes by it certainly doesn't take a 1000lb bomb.

  140. @JR Ewing
    Regardless of who did it - and I'm still not convinced it wasn't the US or the UK - American journalists cheering it on because it increases the likelihood of the war continuing, is absolutely obscene.

    Russia sucks. Ukraine sucks. Germany sucks. They all suck.

    This war is none of our business. People are suffering and more people will suffer further this winter now that this pipeline has been destroyed and the possibility of the resumption of gas deliveries is gone.

    The suffering of Americans is all I care about - and all our overlord ruling class should care about - but they are much more interested in sticking their nose into foreign conflicts because they want to increase their power and their wealth.

    We are inching towards the brink and our supposedly independent media is cheering the oncoming annihilation.

    Replies: @JimB, @Thoughts, @Herbert R. Tarlek, Jr., @Captain Tripps

    The suffering of Americans is all I care about – and all our overlord ruling class should care about – but they are much more interested in sticking their nose into foreign conflicts because they want to increase their power and their wealth.

    Many, many stories such as these in my metro area of late:

    If it were Uzi-wielding thugs in Hebron being thrown out of their homes, you can bet your ass our leaders would immediately appropriate however many billions of dollars it took to keep them housed. But crippled and elderly Americans? Meh, who gives a damn.

    I hate this government and this whole system so fucking much.

    Also, fuck off, Arizona is full.

  141. @Loyalty Over IQ Worship
    @Citizen of a Silly Country

    What's shocking is the lack of respect Sailer/Cochran have for their audience, such as it is. This makes anyone who repeats this story sound like a doofus.

    The irony is they pride themselves on loving IQ and hanging out with the Smart Fraction, but end up with only the most gullible, low IQ people believing them.

    As with Covid and the "Putler bad" trope, Sailer/Cochran have the same opinions as a vapid college girl.

    Replies: @DH13, @AnotherDad, @Citizen of a Silly Country

    What’s shocking is the lack of respect Sailer/Cochran have for their audience, such as it is. This makes anyone who repeats this story sound like a doofus.

    Loyalty, you are responding to a Citizen post where he either does not seem to be aware of or is ignoring the basic facts:
    — there are the long existing pipelines that run through Ukraine/Poland
    — far from “critical to Europe”, there wasn’t much/any gas flowing through Nordstream 1 because the Russians cut it off (claiming operational issues, then inability to get a turbine because of sanctions) and Nordstream 2 has never been operational
    — Nordstream was a controversial project opposed by institutional “Europe” precisely because of these “split the team” issues
    All of which suggest perfectly plausible motive for Ukraine or Poland.

    And you’re saying Sailer’s a doofus because he’s speculating while actually understanding these basic facts, which Citizen apparently does not.

    Now, who did it … hell if I know.

  142. @Loyalty Over IQ Worship
    @Citizen of a Silly Country

    What's shocking is the lack of respect Sailer/Cochran have for their audience, such as it is. This makes anyone who repeats this story sound like a doofus.

    The irony is they pride themselves on loving IQ and hanging out with the Smart Fraction, but end up with only the most gullible, low IQ people believing them.

    As with Covid and the "Putler bad" trope, Sailer/Cochran have the same opinions as a vapid college girl.

    Replies: @DH13, @AnotherDad, @Citizen of a Silly Country

    Yeah, Covid was odd, but you could give Steve a pass given his age and previous health issues.

    But Steve’s recent turns are more disturbing. First, it was Putin is Hitler. Now, this. And all of that on top of his long-standing hostility toward whites thinking of themselves as a group and defending themselves – as every other group does.

    Obviously, Steve isn’t a gatekeeper, but he’s increasingly showing that he has dramatically different views on the world than many, if not most, of his gentile readers.

    Obviously, having different views isn’t the issue. It’s his shabby defense of those views – or lack thereof in the the case of white identity politics – that’s the problem. Steve is proving to be much less of a thinker than we gave him credit for.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    @Citizen of a Silly Country

    Well, as far as I know he still firmly maintains that a crazed lone gunman named Lee Harvey Oswald killed JFK and that nineteen random Arabs armed with box-cutters attacked us on 9/11.

    Given the enormous amount of detailed information that has come out over the decades, if you can believe that, it's easy to imagine that the crazy lone Ukrainians went off-script and blew up the Nord Stream pipelines without permission of their American overlords.

    https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-mossad-assassinations/

  143. @Altai
    @Altai

    https://twitter.com/javierblas/status/1574780608785653763

    The assessment is estimating 3 devices of each around 500kg of TNT equivalent were used and detonated simultaneously.

    The Ukrainians didn't just hire a fishing vessel and send some divers to do this on the cheap. They don't have the assets to do this. The Poles do.

    I don't think commentators in the US appreciate how crazy the Poles have been during all this or how deranged and irrational it's political class is in it's anti-Russian zeal.

    Replies: @AnotherDad

    How strong is a Nord Stream pipe? Quite!

    The steel pipe itself has a wall of 4.1 centimeters (1.6 inches), and it’s coated with another 6-11 cm of steel-reinforced concrete.

    The assessment is estimating 3 devices of each around 500kg of TNT equivalent were used and detonated simultaneously.

    Altai, I don’t think you should believe every “assessment” on the Internet. Most of them are bozos.

    I’m not a demolition guy, but this is not the least bit persuasive. (To say the least.) You are talking about blowing through a few inches of concrete–more or less equivalent to my patio–and then cracking open a 1.6″ thick steel pipe underneath. This isn’t exactly battleship or even tank armor. It’s simply not designed to be. (I remember driving along the Alaska pipeline a dozen years back and thinking some pissed off dude could really make a mess of this. A lot of our infrastructure relies on competent people not trying to screw things up. See 9-11.)

    Contractors, road builders use a few sticks of dynamite to blow out big rocks.

    I don’t know what this blow-a-hole pipeline demo takes by it certainly doesn’t take a 1000lb bomb.

  144. From an engineering perspective, pipelines have to be ‘cleaned’ regularly and therefore pipelines are designed to have injectable devices called ‘pigs’ which are pretty complicated devices for this purpose. ‘Pigs’ can be programmed, so it’s not out of the question that they could be made into bombs and automatically detonated at some point down pipeline. So, there is an angle that the Russians could have destroyed their own undersea pipeline.

    However, we would have to see photos of the actual underwater damage, as an internal pipeline explosion would give a totally different debris/damage pattern than an external explosion.

    Certainly, if the Russians did the demolition, okay – they designed it and it’s their property. If the U.S. (Nudelman’s CIA goons or Pentagram) and more likely the Israelis, then this is very bad practice, since it takes a lot of effort to design/build/operate such a large pipeline – cavalier destruction points to some sort of psychological malfunctioning on the perpetrator’s part. If the reports of the USS Kearsarge having been in the area(s) of the explosions is true, then most likely the culprit is the U.S. military.

    I still think the Israelis or other Jewish control groups might be behind this because they would want Russia and the U.S. to attack and disable each other, and at the same time destroy Europe for various ‘delusional’ reasons (such as Shamir blaming the U.S. for the dead Jews in concentration camps, whereas this issue was caused the Jewish control group surrounding Churchill). Also, it is pretty common knowledge that when the Jewish were defeated by the Romans, they regrouped and targeted control of Turkey and Spain to attempt to visit revenge upon the Romans. I think the international Jewish cultural controllers may be doing the same thing, and with control of the U.S. federal government/military/media, may have already put in place a plan to destroy the U.S. by clandestinely transferring U.S. military technology to Russia and China.

    Question: Does the fact that the international Jewish controllers having taken control of the U.S. government, and thus it’s military, absolve U.S. current and ex-military personnel from being bound to ‘defend and protect the U.S. from all enemies foreign and domestic’? Because ummm … if the international Jewish controllers have control of the U.S. government, they have control of the U.S. nuclear weapon launch codes – being there is no downside for the international Jewish controllers and diaspora.

    Perhaps the U.S. and Russians together (and maybe the Chinese as well, i.e. Opium War) can clean out the Jewish controllers first, then think about whether there is a real problem that has to be solved by war.

    • LOL: IHTG
  145. …Nordstream was a controversial project opposed by institutional “Europe” precisely because of these “split the team” issues…

    Exactly who are these “institutional Europeans?”

    Just what “team” is in danger of being split?

    Is any of this worth escalating tensions?

    Shouldn’t responsible persons be for stopping the killing – even if that means letting Putin have some land in Ukraine (cf., letting a criminal have your wallet instead of getting your family killed in a struggle)?

    Why are Biden, the Democrats, the media, etc., not doing all they can to stop the killing?

    End all war now!

  146. NATO tested underwater ‘equipment’ close to Nord Stream leak zone – Moscow
    In June, the alliance experimented with unmanned subs near the island of Bornholm

    https://www.rt.com/russia/563741-nato-underwater-drones-nord-stream/

    A theory:
    NATO divers did reconnaissance in June, the Poles got the data and then Ukrainian divers went to work, just outside NATO territorial waters. That way it wouldn’t be NATO itself that directly hit Russia first. A Russian response would then be the “new Pearl Harbor” neocons crave.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Cagey Beast


    A theory:
    NATO divers did reconnaissance in June, the Poles got the data and then Ukrainian divers went to work, just outside NATO territorial waters.
     
    Franklin said, "two may keep a secret, if one of them be dead."

    Other than spreading the blame on EVERYONE that you don't like, this theory makes no sense at all. You would want information concerning an operation like this to be as closely held as possible. What function do the "Poles getting the data" serve? Doesn't NATO have direct channels to the Ukrainians?

    Replies: @Cagey Beast, @YetAnotherAnon

  147. @Wokechoke
    @ic1000

    Remote controlled drone mini submarines. There won’t be failed detonations of bundled up pipebombs with alarm clocks on them.

    Replies: @ic1000

    > Remote controlled drone mini submarines.

    Plausible. Commenters have suggested other plausible means, too.

    The question remains, why blast 3 of 4 pipes? That’s an odd number.

  148. @YetAnotherAnon
    This is why the pipelines had to be destroyed - Germans protesting, some demanding NS2 be reopened.

    (Most of the protesters carried no placards, I think I could just see two. But as the energy tourniquet tightens there was definitely a risk of Germany having to choose between Ukraine and her economy... can't shut steelworks and chemical plants and switch the back on later.)

    https://twitter.com/RadioGenova/status/1574489634071105536

    Replies: @MGB, @Jack D, @Dennis Dale

    This is why the pipelines had to be destroyed – Germans protesting, some demanding NS2 be reopened.

    But according to the squad here, Russians didn’t anticipate the emotional appeal of the issue of Ukrainian sovereignty amongst the West! The Germans and Czechs stand in solidarity with the ukes, and are all willing to freeze to death on that hill! I lived in Germany when stationed there in the early 90s. They could not stand the Poles then, and I highly doubt they have any deep sympathy for Ukraine now. “Er ist nur ein Polack”, i was told when some shop keeper was tossing a Pole out onto the street. iirc it was poor schmuck looking at tools in a hardware store.

  149. @Intelligent Dasein
    We need to move on from the stupid theories. Everybody knows the United States did this. Denying that is masturbatory.

    Of far more importance is what will happen next. Europe is at most a couple of months away from unavoidable economic disaster. This is going to destabilize the entire world. There is no real predicting exactly what is going to fall apart first, nor how the Western world's various clueless and incompetent governments are going to react in their desperation; but we can say without any doubt that it's going to be bad. Here in the United States, I would not rule out the idea that the current administration will attempt a hostile takeover of the entire economy under the pretext that we must devote all our energy and raw materials to "saving Europe" and "defeating Russia."

    The powers that be tried to engineer their own Pearl Harbor, but I don't think it's going to work. I think, paradoxically, this is going to result in Europe turning more and more towards Russia as a source of stability and strength. We may see, before the end of 2023, Germany simply "surrender" to Russia and become Eurasian partner country, while the rest of the West flounders around in an increasingly delusional post-imperial death spiral.

    Replies: @MGB

    I would not rule out the idea that the current administration will attempt a hostile takeover of the entire economy under the pretext that we must devote all our energy and raw materials to “saving Europe” and “defeating Russia.”

    this is another making lemonade moment for the masters of chaos. they are going to sink the economies of germany and the uk, and there will be a fire sale of small businesses as they go under, an expansion of monopoly capital, with attendant buy ups of businesses large and small as the euro and pound sink. they are running out of opportunities to strip mine the economy to keep the ponzi scheme afloat. the covid op sank thousands of small businesses, and this is just more of the same. how many small shops in the uk have closed in the last 6 months due to energy inflation?

  150. @JR Ewing
    Regardless of who did it - and I'm still not convinced it wasn't the US or the UK - American journalists cheering it on because it increases the likelihood of the war continuing, is absolutely obscene.

    Russia sucks. Ukraine sucks. Germany sucks. They all suck.

    This war is none of our business. People are suffering and more people will suffer further this winter now that this pipeline has been destroyed and the possibility of the resumption of gas deliveries is gone.

    The suffering of Americans is all I care about - and all our overlord ruling class should care about - but they are much more interested in sticking their nose into foreign conflicts because they want to increase their power and their wealth.

    We are inching towards the brink and our supposedly independent media is cheering the oncoming annihilation.

    Replies: @JimB, @Thoughts, @Herbert R. Tarlek, Jr., @Captain Tripps

    Agree.

  151. @Steve Sailer
    @michael droy

    "I can’t see Ukraine doing it themselves – after all they don’t seem to manage the tanks and artillery given them without a great deal of “mercenary” assistance."

    Judging by battlefield results, the Ukrainians seem to be pretty competent and motivated white men when it comes to modern warfare.

    This operation doesn't seem all that complicated. For example, you could buy a fishing boat anywhere in the Atlantic and staff it with your own fishermen and a handful of deep sea divers. You purchase undersea mining explosives somewhere, such as Belgium where they don't ask too many questions. Heck, you could go to West Africa if needed. You sail it to the Baltic for the herring harvest. At night, you happen to drift over the pipeline, send your divers down, then move on before dawn. Repeat as needed. A week later when you are back at home, the timers go off.

    Any state along the North Atlantic could have pulled this off, but for the noncombatants it would be a sizable escalation and thus a big risk.

    There are two combatants: Russia and Ukraine. The argument that blowing up Russia's own strategic pipeline would be in Russia's interest seems strained to me. The argument that it would seem worth the risk to Ukraine, which is fighting for its national survival, seems pretty plausible.

    Occam's Razor points toward Ukraine.

    Replies: @Loyalty Over IQ Worship, @Thoughts, @Coemgen, @Bill B., @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Chrisnonymous, @Dmon, @Gordo, @Intelligent Dasein, @Anon, @Pixo, @JimB

    LOL – go ahead and start asking for money again, buddy.

    “Noticing”…lol.

  152. @Citizen of a Silly Country
    @Loyalty Over IQ Worship

    Yeah, Covid was odd, but you could give Steve a pass given his age and previous health issues.

    But Steve's recent turns are more disturbing. First, it was Putin is Hitler. Now, this. And all of that on top of his long-standing hostility toward whites thinking of themselves as a group and defending themselves - as every other group does.

    Obviously, Steve isn't a gatekeeper, but he's increasingly showing that he has dramatically different views on the world than many, if not most, of his gentile readers.

    Obviously, having different views isn't the issue. It's his shabby defense of those views - or lack thereof in the the case of white identity politics - that's the problem. Steve is proving to be much less of a thinker than we gave him credit for.

    Replies: @Ron Unz

    Well, as far as I know he still firmly maintains that a crazed lone gunman named Lee Harvey Oswald killed JFK and that nineteen random Arabs armed with box-cutters attacked us on 9/11.

    Given the enormous amount of detailed information that has come out over the decades, if you can believe that, it’s easy to imagine that the crazy lone Ukrainians went off-script and blew up the Nord Stream pipelines without permission of their American overlords.

    https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-mossad-assassinations/

  153. @Cagey Beast
    NATO tested underwater ‘equipment’ close to Nord Stream leak zone – Moscow
    In June, the alliance experimented with unmanned subs near the island of Bornholm

    https://www.rt.com/russia/563741-nato-underwater-drones-nord-stream/

    A theory:
    NATO divers did reconnaissance in June, the Poles got the data and then Ukrainian divers went to work, just outside NATO territorial waters. That way it wouldn't be NATO itself that directly hit Russia first. A Russian response would then be the "new Pearl Harbor" neocons crave.

    Replies: @Jack D

    A theory:
    NATO divers did reconnaissance in June, the Poles got the data and then Ukrainian divers went to work, just outside NATO territorial waters.

    Franklin said, “two may keep a secret, if one of them be dead.”

    Other than spreading the blame on EVERYONE that you don’t like, this theory makes no sense at all. You would want information concerning an operation like this to be as closely held as possible. What function do the “Poles getting the data” serve? Doesn’t NATO have direct channels to the Ukrainians?

    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    @Jack D

    You're nitpicking here. Poles would routinely get reports about NATO exercises on the Baltic that would be odd to give to Ukraine. If a Ukrainian team did this, the Poles were most likely their hosts.

    Maybe the Poles did it on their own? Who knows? The least likely scenario is that the Russians or Germans did it to themselves.

    It's far more likely the Axis of Cabbage sabotaged Nord Stream so neither Poland nor Ukraine could have their Russian gas cut off without harming Germany too.

    , @YetAnotherAnon
    @Jack D

    "Franklin said, “two may keep a secret, if one of them be dead.”"

    Franklin (in Poor Richard's Almanack IIRC) was channeling Henry VIII - "three may keep a secret, if two be away, and if I thought my cap knew my secrets I would take it off and burn it".

    Replies: @MGB

  154. @Alfa158
    @HA

    There are no underwater valves that can open and produce the seismic signatures reported by the Swedes as indicating 100kg explosive charges. And I’m more inclined to think that if it was the Russians, then the explosions would have failed to rupture the lines.
    The Russians were accused of poisoning the Skripals and Navalny, who all somehow miraculously survived toxins that could kill in microscopic doses. If the Russians are that incompetent then if they had tried to blow the gas lines they would have used a couple of M80 firecrackers. This was done by someone with more competence than that.
    The investigation will be conducted by the West and before it even starts I can already write the conclusion that will be reached: “It was probably the Russkies, but we can’t prove it.”

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon, @HA

    “And I’m more inclined to think that if it was the Russians, then the explosions would have failed to rupture the lines…”.

    Or else it’s yet another of the too-many-to-count stories of the bomb-maker who miscalculated, sometimes to the point of killing himself. Or else the Russians would have caused ruptures that would take no more than a few weeks to repair. Is there any evidence this was anything more serious than that?

    “The Russians were accused of poisoning the Skripals and Navalny, who all somehow miraculously survived toxins that could kill in microscopic doses.”

    The spot where the Skripals were poisoned with Novichuk is still being blocked off as a biohazard. You could always oyster a few pounds to any of Putin’s UK useful idiots (e.g. London Bob) to go there at night and lick the bench just to be sure.

    “I can already write the conclusion that will be reached: ‘It was probably the Russkies, but we can’t prove it.’”

    In the case the Skripals, I have no trouble believing Putin is behind that, so by extrapolation I’m inclined to agree with you, but if there was indeed bungling of any sort to the extent that a bigger boom was created than the one initially planned, maybe there was also bungling that will help identify the perpetrators, so I’ll wait for the post-mortem. Then again, if you’re dismissing the evidence against the Skripal assassins, the other conclusion that we might well see is: “Yes, it’s obvious that the Russians did it, but despite all the evidence uncovered, they and their lapdogs in the West still insist it is inconclusive.”

    I will note that this is pretty handy in terms of serving as another internal rationalization for why the Russians must be more compliant with regard to mobilization: “See how NATO attacks our infrastructure as a blatant causus belli and then has the nerve to accuse us? Of course you must send your sons into the meat grinder — what other response is there?” And all the while, other Putin trolls have been loudly proclaiming that the next bombs that Russia needs to set off should be over Berlin and be triggered by way of nuclear codes.

    In other words, just as happened with Bucha or any number of other examples Russian criminality, this is completely in line with their standard simultaneous two-pronged reply of 1) “We didn’t do it.” and 2) “We should have done even more of it.”

  155. @Jack D
    @Cagey Beast


    A theory:
    NATO divers did reconnaissance in June, the Poles got the data and then Ukrainian divers went to work, just outside NATO territorial waters.
     
    Franklin said, "two may keep a secret, if one of them be dead."

    Other than spreading the blame on EVERYONE that you don't like, this theory makes no sense at all. You would want information concerning an operation like this to be as closely held as possible. What function do the "Poles getting the data" serve? Doesn't NATO have direct channels to the Ukrainians?

    Replies: @Cagey Beast, @YetAnotherAnon

    You’re nitpicking here. Poles would routinely get reports about NATO exercises on the Baltic that would be odd to give to Ukraine. If a Ukrainian team did this, the Poles were most likely their hosts.

    Maybe the Poles did it on their own? Who knows? The least likely scenario is that the Russians or Germans did it to themselves.

    It’s far more likely the Axis of Cabbage sabotaged Nord Stream so neither Poland nor Ukraine could have their Russian gas cut off without harming Germany too.

  156. The Polish have the means and the motive to pull it off.

    NS1 and NS2 were built to bypass Poland.

    Lotos Petrobaltic S.A. is a Polish company that operates offshore rigs in the Baltic, so they’d have experience sending divers to the sea floor to adjust equipment.

    LNG shippers/brokers have had a very good week. For example, look how $LNG has moved since Monday.

    With NS1 and NS2 damaged, a possible competitor to LNG shippers/brokers has been removed.

  157. @YetAnotherAnon
    This is why the pipelines had to be destroyed - Germans protesting, some demanding NS2 be reopened.

    (Most of the protesters carried no placards, I think I could just see two. But as the energy tourniquet tightens there was definitely a risk of Germany having to choose between Ukraine and her economy... can't shut steelworks and chemical plants and switch the back on later.)

    https://twitter.com/RadioGenova/status/1574489634071105536

    Replies: @MGB, @Jack D, @Dennis Dale

    I don’t think I’ve ever seen such a glum looking group of demonstrators.

    These demonstrations have happened in a few place in Germany and ALL of them are in the former East Germany. I guess there is still some residual sympathy in E. Germany for Russia, esp. among the elderly. Some of the demonstrators may be Russians living in Germany as well.

    There is no media censorship in EU.

    Generally speaking, support for Ukraine in Germany remains high – over 70%. However, public opinion is polarized along the left-right spectrum:

    The share of those in favour of continued support include almost all Green voters (97%), 82% of the supporters of Chancellor Scholz’s Social Democrats (SPD), around three-quarters for the Liberals (FDP) and the Conservatives (CDU), less than 60% for the Left party and less than a third for the far-right AfD.

    https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy-environment/news/germans-resolved-to-support-ukraine-despite-gas-prices-as-fm-visits-kyiv/

    (The “Left” Party is the remnant of the former E. German Communist Party and is not really “left” in modern terms).

    Despite your (and Putin’s) fondest hopes, Russia is not going to peel off any support for Ukraine with its energy blackmail tactics. If anything, these have only backfired and increased support for Ukraine. Russians are always clumsy with these efforts and they should recognize that they have no talent for them and stick to massed artillery attacks.

  158. OT:
    This story has it all:

  159. I see you are still banned on FB and messenger. My wife sent me a very misleading short article from Ariel Cohen of Forbes, saying it’s obvious the Russians did it. I tried to send her a link to this column, since the Times article has a paywall. Got an autoreply saying it can’t be sent because it violates community standards. Fortunately, there are other messaging services not censored.

  160. Thank goodness we paid NGOs and diplomats to help Ukraine tackle these problems over the last thirty years. If we’d just sent over shit-disturbers, skimmers, pimps, perverts, ideologues, political bagmen and the children of Axis collaborators then we’d have something to be ashamed of:

  161. That Russia would blow up their own pipeline makes zero sense.

    • Agree: Cagey Beast, JR Ewing
  162. The argument that it would seem worth the risk to Ukraine, which is fighting for its national survival, seems pretty plausible.

    Occam’s Razor points toward Ukraine as the perpetrator.

    Complicated and chains of logic explanations are tempting but seldom pan out.

    If “Ukrainian frogmen” were so abundant and skilled, we’d see a lot more sunken Russian ships in the Crimea and Black Sea. You would also need very good intel on exact locations.

    And how about this issue: don’t you think someone (Germans, NATO, US, Russia, Poland, etc.) would have around the clock satellite surveillance over the Baltic and undersea pipeline route. Especially since the CIA claims to have already warned the Germans months back about this possibility?

    Thems that’s don’t know do a lot of talking. Thems that do know stay pretty quiet.

    So where is the “intelligence community” (of every government) commentary on satellite surveillance of this area? Any making lame excuses? No?

    My gut believes the Russians had the means, opportunity and assets. Despite the fact that it seems counter productive. But these pipelines can be repaired or replaced when the issue calms down and gas/money can flow again.

    Since Russia is claiming a “state actor” did it (those clever, treacherous Finns again!) I take any denial they make of their own involvement an admission of guilt. Has Putin ever told the truth about anything else?

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Muggles

    There are some early reports that Russian Navy ships were seen in the vicinity of the leaks, but Russian Navy ships are seen all over the Baltic. Especially in recent years, the Russians have gone back to their old Cold War tactic of constantly testing Western defenses by seeing how close they can get to NATO territory before they get noticed. So these early reports may or may not pan out.

    My gut says that this was Russia but you can't really go by your gut. There is going to be an investigation and out of that investigation there is going to be real proof - explosive fragments, satellite photos, human intelligence, etc. We'll see what that says. Of course if the evidence points to Russia they will just deny it no matter how conclusive the evidence is.

    Replies: @Pixo

  163. No one has any doubt that the US government did this attack. Anyone who claims otherwise is just gas-lighting and taunting people.

    • Replies: @Wokechoke
    @ATBOTL

    Gaslighting or Gas Piping?

  164. @Muggles

    The argument that it would seem worth the risk to Ukraine, which is fighting for its national survival, seems pretty plausible.

    Occam’s Razor points toward Ukraine as the perpetrator.
     
    Complicated and chains of logic explanations are tempting but seldom pan out.

    If "Ukrainian frogmen" were so abundant and skilled, we'd see a lot more sunken Russian ships in the Crimea and Black Sea. You would also need very good intel on exact locations.

    And how about this issue: don't you think someone (Germans, NATO, US, Russia, Poland, etc.) would have around the clock satellite surveillance over the Baltic and undersea pipeline route. Especially since the CIA claims to have already warned the Germans months back about this possibility?

    Thems that's don't know do a lot of talking. Thems that do know stay pretty quiet.

    So where is the "intelligence community" (of every government) commentary on satellite surveillance of this area? Any making lame excuses? No?

    My gut believes the Russians had the means, opportunity and assets. Despite the fact that it seems counter productive. But these pipelines can be repaired or replaced when the issue calms down and gas/money can flow again.

    Since Russia is claiming a "state actor" did it (those clever, treacherous Finns again!) I take any denial they make of their own involvement an admission of guilt. Has Putin ever told the truth about anything else?

    Replies: @Jack D

    There are some early reports that Russian Navy ships were seen in the vicinity of the leaks, but Russian Navy ships are seen all over the Baltic. Especially in recent years, the Russians have gone back to their old Cold War tactic of constantly testing Western defenses by seeing how close they can get to NATO territory before they get noticed. So these early reports may or may not pan out.

    My gut says that this was Russia but you can’t really go by your gut. There is going to be an investigation and out of that investigation there is going to be real proof – explosive fragments, satellite photos, human intelligence, etc. We’ll see what that says. Of course if the evidence points to Russia they will just deny it no matter how conclusive the evidence is.

    • Replies: @Pixo
    @Jack D

    I find myself agreeing with Team Russkie on this one: they can always claim “mechanical problems” if they don’t want to supply gas. No reason to blow it up.

    With the (understandably) apocalyptic and bellicose rhetoric coming from the Ukrainians, and the extreme support for them from the Baltic nations and Poland, that’s my guess at the perps.

    I never discount however Russian lackadaisical and drunken incompetence.

    The US risk/reward for this makes it a very unlikely culprit.

    I am impatient to hear what the nutball jewish conspiracy explanation is.

    Replies: @JR Ewing

  165. Nordstream birthday present for Kagan

    The Nordstream pipelines were blown up on 26 September 2022, the same day that the architect of the 2014 Ukraine coup d’etat, Victoria Nuland’s husband and PNAC signatory, Robert Kagan, celebrated his 64th birthday …

  166. @YetAnotherAnon
    @Redneck farmer

    I'm sure Russia has the ability (though no motive) to blow up the pipeline - but in an obvious and spectacular way, by missile or airstrike.

    What it doesn't have is the ability to do it by stealth. The whole Baltic, and especially the international water route used (inter alia) by the Russian Baltic Fleet (based at Kaliningrad and Kronstadt) is heavily monitored - microphones and sensors all over the place. It's pretty shallow so getting to the seabed's no problemo, and there are lots of guys around with underwater expertise due to the oil and gas industries.

    What I'm unsure of is how these sensors work together and who's in operational control of them.

    So I'm guessing that Denmark and Sweden should have the data to actually work out whodunnit - if they really want to find out, and if it doesn't transpire that the sensors in that area were mysteriously turned off during the relevant period - like the cameras at the time Epstein was suicided/taken to Israel.

    Steve doesn't seem to want to start from "Cui bono?".

    Short term winners, USA (and a bit for Israel, who are drilling for gas in areas claimed by Lebanon and planning liquefaction plants).

    Short term losers - Russia and especially Germany and Europe.

    Long term winners - China - all that lovely Russian energy heading their way.

    Long term losers - Europe and perhaps USA too, as Mackinder's World Island comes closer.

    I wish I could convince Steve that Russia are going to win this war, despite any number of HIMARS. China may not want to upset their export trade to the US too much, but this is almost as existential for them as for Russia, in that they know if Russia goes, they are next on the list AND they would lose a big energy supplier.

    And it was all so unnecessary. Keep NATO out of Ukraine and all would have been good. But Nuland and Co wanted something different.

    I used to laugh when Khomeini called the US "the Great Satan". But it turns out he had a point where their foreign policy was - and is - concerned.

    I just wondered - do the US subsidise European Green parties? That's what I'd do if I wanted to damage them. Look at Germany shutting its nukes.

    Replies: @vinteuil

    it was all so unnecessary. Keep NATO out of Ukraine and all would have been good. But Nuland and Co wanted something different.

    I used to laugh when Khomeini called the US “the Great Satan”. But it turns out he had a point

    No kidding.

  167. @YetAnotherAnon
    This is why the pipelines had to be destroyed - Germans protesting, some demanding NS2 be reopened.

    (Most of the protesters carried no placards, I think I could just see two. But as the energy tourniquet tightens there was definitely a risk of Germany having to choose between Ukraine and her economy... can't shut steelworks and chemical plants and switch the back on later.)

    https://twitter.com/RadioGenova/status/1574489634071105536

    Replies: @MGB, @Jack D, @Dennis Dale

    It appears aimed at Germany and has dumped on them and Europe a great big stinking fait accompli. You will support regime change in Russia and buy the LNG, Euroweenies.

    The European public should be up in arms demanding their countries re-establish sovereignty.

  168. @ATBOTL
    No one has any doubt that the US government did this attack. Anyone who claims otherwise is just gas-lighting and taunting people.

    Replies: @Wokechoke

    Gaslighting or Gas Piping?

  169. @AnotherDad
    @Veracitor


    It was aided by the Danish and Swedish military; planned and coordinated with US intelligence and technical support; and approved by the Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki.
     
    I know nothing about this Helmer guy, but as soon as you drag four nations into it, I smell "b.s."

    I have no knowledge and can believe any of the relevant players--or rogue players--actually did it. If you tell me you've got great sources who say "It's the Poles"--hey that's quite plausible--or even "It's the Poles with intelligence help from the US"--that's less plausible, but still quite plausible.

    When you start dragging Danes and Swedes in there as well ... LOL. Why not the UN General Assembly? Any operational secrecy would be long, long gone--a boat load of people would be in on it, and everyone would know from teh get go, it's all going to come out. That just smells like your "reliable sources" are spouting a lot of contradictory b.s. and really don't actually know shit.

    Replies: @Wokechoke

    Pretty soon all these lemmings of nations will be blaming Russia anyway.

  170. @Steve Sailer
    @michael droy

    "I can’t see Ukraine doing it themselves – after all they don’t seem to manage the tanks and artillery given them without a great deal of “mercenary” assistance."

    Judging by battlefield results, the Ukrainians seem to be pretty competent and motivated white men when it comes to modern warfare.

    This operation doesn't seem all that complicated. For example, you could buy a fishing boat anywhere in the Atlantic and staff it with your own fishermen and a handful of deep sea divers. You purchase undersea mining explosives somewhere, such as Belgium where they don't ask too many questions. Heck, you could go to West Africa if needed. You sail it to the Baltic for the herring harvest. At night, you happen to drift over the pipeline, send your divers down, then move on before dawn. Repeat as needed. A week later when you are back at home, the timers go off.

    Any state along the North Atlantic could have pulled this off, but for the noncombatants it would be a sizable escalation and thus a big risk.

    There are two combatants: Russia and Ukraine. The argument that blowing up Russia's own strategic pipeline would be in Russia's interest seems strained to me. The argument that it would seem worth the risk to Ukraine, which is fighting for its national survival, seems pretty plausible.

    Occam's Razor points toward Ukraine.

    Replies: @Loyalty Over IQ Worship, @Thoughts, @Coemgen, @Bill B., @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Chrisnonymous, @Dmon, @Gordo, @Intelligent Dasein, @Anon, @Pixo, @JimB

    “ You purchase undersea mining explosives somewhere, such as Belgium where they don’t ask too many questions.”

    Really? Would you mind putting me in touch with your tight-lipped and undiscriminating Belgian underwater explosives guy? Happen to really need one right now for… purposes. My Ghenttish guy had an little mishap last year and, well, exploded underwater.

  171. @Jack D
    @Muggles

    There are some early reports that Russian Navy ships were seen in the vicinity of the leaks, but Russian Navy ships are seen all over the Baltic. Especially in recent years, the Russians have gone back to their old Cold War tactic of constantly testing Western defenses by seeing how close they can get to NATO territory before they get noticed. So these early reports may or may not pan out.

    My gut says that this was Russia but you can't really go by your gut. There is going to be an investigation and out of that investigation there is going to be real proof - explosive fragments, satellite photos, human intelligence, etc. We'll see what that says. Of course if the evidence points to Russia they will just deny it no matter how conclusive the evidence is.

    Replies: @Pixo

    I find myself agreeing with Team Russkie on this one: they can always claim “mechanical problems” if they don’t want to supply gas. No reason to blow it up.

    With the (understandably) apocalyptic and bellicose rhetoric coming from the Ukrainians, and the extreme support for them from the Baltic nations and Poland, that’s my guess at the perps.

    I never discount however Russian lackadaisical and drunken incompetence.

    The US risk/reward for this makes it a very unlikely culprit.

    I am impatient to hear what the nutball jewish conspiracy explanation is.

    • Replies: @JR Ewing
    @Pixo


    The US risk/reward for this makes it a very unlikely culprit.
     
    But that’s more than outweighed by the arrogance of the Deep State.
  172. @Pixo
    @Jack D

    I find myself agreeing with Team Russkie on this one: they can always claim “mechanical problems” if they don’t want to supply gas. No reason to blow it up.

    With the (understandably) apocalyptic and bellicose rhetoric coming from the Ukrainians, and the extreme support for them from the Baltic nations and Poland, that’s my guess at the perps.

    I never discount however Russian lackadaisical and drunken incompetence.

    The US risk/reward for this makes it a very unlikely culprit.

    I am impatient to hear what the nutball jewish conspiracy explanation is.

    Replies: @JR Ewing

    The US risk/reward for this makes it a very unlikely culprit.

    But that’s more than outweighed by the arrogance of the Deep State.

  173. You purchase undersea mining explosives somewhere, such as corrupt Belgium where they don’t ask too many questions.

    Since when is Belgium corrupt?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Anonymous

    By Western European standards, Belgium is the center for organized crime:

    https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2022/09/21/narco-state-fears-in-belgium-after-summer-of-violence_5997770_4.html


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    The docks of the port of Antwerp, September 2022© Sébastien Van MalleghemSÉBASTIEN VAN MALLEGHEM FOR 'LE MONDE'
    'Narco-state' fears in Belgium after summer of violence
    By Jean-Pierre Stroobants (Brussels, Europe bureau)
    Published on September 21, 2022 at 16h12, updated at 12h27 on September 27, 2022
    5 min.
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    FEATUREWith up to €60 billion of drugs a year passing through the port city of Antwerp, the epicentre of Europe's cocaine trade, the country is facing escalating gang attacks.

    On September 15, in Brussels, the Belgian prime minister, three federal ministers (of the interior, justice and health), the federal prosecutor and 14 mayors met to discuss a long-neglected issue: drug trafficking, which has led to an unprecedented flare-up of violence in the country this summer. "At last," said one magistrate, who has been decrying the authorities' slow response for years. He says the situation has reached the point at which it is now a matter of stopping the country becoming a "narco-state."

    It all started in 2012, when Dutch traffickers kidnapped one of the members of a family who had tried to steal a batch of cocaine offloaded from a container at the port of Antwerp. The family relented when they received a photo of the meat grinder the kidnappers were threatening to feed the young man into.

    Since then, the violence has not stopped – and this summer there have been shootings, attempted arson, stabbings (leaving one person dead) and grenade attacks on homes and businesses. These have been primarily in the Belgian capital, where a turf war is taking place, but have also occurred in Antwerp, where the port has been the epicenter of cocaine trafficking in Europe for years. Nearly 90 tons were seized there in 2021, while another 28 tons were confiscated in South America on their way to Belgium"

    Belgium is a fine civilization but it's not much of a state. It was created to be an ineffectual border state and it is.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @YetAnotherAnon

  174. @Anonymous

    You purchase undersea mining explosives somewhere, such as corrupt Belgium where they don’t ask too many questions.
     
    Since when is Belgium corrupt?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    By Western European standards, Belgium is the center for organized crime:

    https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2022/09/21/narco-state-fears-in-belgium-after-summer-of-violence_5997770_4.html

    INTERNATIONAL

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    The docks of the port of Antwerp, September 2022© Sébastien Van MalleghemSÉBASTIEN VAN MALLEGHEM FOR ‘LE MONDE’
    ‘Narco-state’ fears in Belgium after summer of violence
    By Jean-Pierre Stroobants (Brussels, Europe bureau)
    Published on September 21, 2022 at 16h12, updated at 12h27 on September 27, 2022
    5 min.
    Lire en Français
    Subscribers only

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    FEATUREWith up to €60 billion of drugs a year passing through the port city of Antwerp, the epicentre of Europe’s cocaine trade, the country is facing escalating gang attacks.

    On September 15, in Brussels, the Belgian prime minister, three federal ministers (of the interior, justice and health), the federal prosecutor and 14 mayors met to discuss a long-neglected issue: drug trafficking, which has led to an unprecedented flare-up of violence in the country this summer. “At last,” said one magistrate, who has been decrying the authorities’ slow response for years. He says the situation has reached the point at which it is now a matter of stopping the country becoming a “narco-state.”

    It all started in 2012, when Dutch traffickers kidnapped one of the members of a family who had tried to steal a batch of cocaine offloaded from a container at the port of Antwerp. The family relented when they received a photo of the meat grinder the kidnappers were threatening to feed the young man into.

    Since then, the violence has not stopped – and this summer there have been shootings, attempted arson, stabbings (leaving one person dead) and grenade attacks on homes and businesses. These have been primarily in the Belgian capital, where a turf war is taking place, but have also occurred in Antwerp, where the port has been the epicenter of cocaine trafficking in Europe for years. Nearly 90 tons were seized there in 2021, while another 28 tons were confiscated in South America on their way to Belgium”

    Belgium is a fine civilization but it’s not much of a state. It was created to be an ineffectual border state and it is.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Steve Sailer


    It was created to be an ineffectual border state and it is.
     
    Why didn’t someone think of making Ukraine a border country between Europe and Russia? That would have saved tens of thousands of lives.
    , @YetAnotherAnon
    @Steve Sailer

    The Marc Dutroux murders make Belgium look both corrupt and incompetent, as well as being a fairly rare example of perhaps a proto-Epstein with murder trimmings. And the number of deaths of people involved either in the case or the investigation is remarkable, Hillary-scale.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Dutroux

    Replies: @MGB

  175. @Steve Sailer
    @Anonymous

    By Western European standards, Belgium is the center for organized crime:

    https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2022/09/21/narco-state-fears-in-belgium-after-summer-of-violence_5997770_4.html


    INTERNATIONAL


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    The docks of the port of Antwerp, September 2022© Sébastien Van MalleghemSÉBASTIEN VAN MALLEGHEM FOR 'LE MONDE'
    'Narco-state' fears in Belgium after summer of violence
    By Jean-Pierre Stroobants (Brussels, Europe bureau)
    Published on September 21, 2022 at 16h12, updated at 12h27 on September 27, 2022
    5 min.
    Lire en Français
    Subscribers only

    Share

    Sharing disabled

    Sharing disabled

    Sharing disabled
    FEATUREWith up to €60 billion of drugs a year passing through the port city of Antwerp, the epicentre of Europe's cocaine trade, the country is facing escalating gang attacks.

    On September 15, in Brussels, the Belgian prime minister, three federal ministers (of the interior, justice and health), the federal prosecutor and 14 mayors met to discuss a long-neglected issue: drug trafficking, which has led to an unprecedented flare-up of violence in the country this summer. "At last," said one magistrate, who has been decrying the authorities' slow response for years. He says the situation has reached the point at which it is now a matter of stopping the country becoming a "narco-state."

    It all started in 2012, when Dutch traffickers kidnapped one of the members of a family who had tried to steal a batch of cocaine offloaded from a container at the port of Antwerp. The family relented when they received a photo of the meat grinder the kidnappers were threatening to feed the young man into.

    Since then, the violence has not stopped – and this summer there have been shootings, attempted arson, stabbings (leaving one person dead) and grenade attacks on homes and businesses. These have been primarily in the Belgian capital, where a turf war is taking place, but have also occurred in Antwerp, where the port has been the epicenter of cocaine trafficking in Europe for years. Nearly 90 tons were seized there in 2021, while another 28 tons were confiscated in South America on their way to Belgium"

    Belgium is a fine civilization but it's not much of a state. It was created to be an ineffectual border state and it is.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @YetAnotherAnon

    It was created to be an ineffectual border state and it is.

    Why didn’t someone think of making Ukraine a border country between Europe and Russia? That would have saved tens of thousands of lives.

  176. @HA
    @ThreeCranes

    "What if the Russians opened some valves down there just to, as you say, divert attention away from other matters?"

    Agreed. And I'm not saying it's certain that the Russians did this -- I just find the outright dismissal by the friends of Putin that the Russians would ever bomb their own pipeline to be an abject plea to ignore the obvious. At this point, after the polonium and the nerve toxin and the poisoned umbrella, and dioxin, my first guess as to who is responsible for skullduggery like this is generally going to be Russians (or North Koreans), just like my first guess for where the latest deadly epidemic originated is going to be some Chinese or African wet market or factory farm. Those aren't foolproof guesses, but outside of Unz-dot-com conspiracy rumour mills, they make for a pretty good start.

    And there are plenty of abusive ex-lovers who have shown no hesitation in burning down even their own houses once the restraining order was issued to make them unwelcome there. To the extent the Russians followed up the snub of their gas with an "ok, well then how do you like THIS?", it is completely plausible to me. But as I said, I'm happy to wait for the investigation to unfold before actually pointing fingers.

    Replies: @Alfa158, @al gore rhythms

    In your analogy the ex-lover is burning down somebody else’s house if they can’t live there any more. The pipeline is still Russian owned.

    I agree that the Russians have a track record of cloak and dagger actions on the international stage, but they don’t usually deliberately shoot themselves in the foot in this way. Who does? The ‘send out a warning’ argument doesn’t work for me, because if it was the Russians all Western nations will now be on alert to guard their own pipelines.

    If Russia is really on the ropes in Ukraine to the extent that we are led to believe, why give the West a shot across the bows in this way?

    I’d be interested to know if Steve and others who think like him actually believe America could be capable of doing something like this.

  177. FYI, wouldn’t it be easier to just give us a direct link to NATO press releases? This would make content generation a lot easier. Or maybe take these press releases and use AI to reword them a bit.

    • LOL: Ron Unz
  178. @Daniel H
    Just thinking it through. If the Biden administration and it's neocon controllers bring about nuclear exchange (leave aside total nuclear war) might we have a Turner diaries type scenario in the USA?

    When the furies are out there is no controlling them.

    Replies: @duncsbaby

    I fear the Turner diaries scenario you envision is more likely to involve a reversal of the races doing the lynching. In America’s current state the potential for wholesale brutality which is what will be needed in a race war exists overwhelmingly w/the BIPOC masses, who all hate Whitey.

    • Agree: JimDandy
    • Replies: @JR Ewing
    @duncsbaby

    Have you read the Turner Diaries? That's basically how it starts out. The vibrants are enlisted to confiscate guns and dole out extrajudicial treatment and eventually whitey gets fed up with it and fights back.

  179. @Jack D
    @Cagey Beast


    A theory:
    NATO divers did reconnaissance in June, the Poles got the data and then Ukrainian divers went to work, just outside NATO territorial waters.
     
    Franklin said, "two may keep a secret, if one of them be dead."

    Other than spreading the blame on EVERYONE that you don't like, this theory makes no sense at all. You would want information concerning an operation like this to be as closely held as possible. What function do the "Poles getting the data" serve? Doesn't NATO have direct channels to the Ukrainians?

    Replies: @Cagey Beast, @YetAnotherAnon

    “Franklin said, “two may keep a secret, if one of them be dead.””

    Franklin (in Poor Richard’s Almanack IIRC) was channeling Henry VIII – “three may keep a secret, if two be away, and if I thought my cap knew my secrets I would take it off and burn it“.

    • Replies: @MGB
    @YetAnotherAnon


    Franklin (in Poor Richard’s Almanack IIRC) was channeling Henry VIII – “three may keep a secret, if two be away, and if I thought my cap knew my secrets I would take it off and burn it“
     
    .

    brilliant. fortune cookies describing spy craft. no, nobody ever conspires with multiple others to commit crimes, and certainly not intelligence agencies. just a bunch of lone 007s doing their thing.

    Replies: @Jack D

  180. Given their (((vicious unending hatred of Germans & Russians, and their proven pathological treachery))), maybe we should round up the usual suspects.

  181. @Steve Sailer
    @Anonymous

    By Western European standards, Belgium is the center for organized crime:

    https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2022/09/21/narco-state-fears-in-belgium-after-summer-of-violence_5997770_4.html


    INTERNATIONAL


    MIDTERM ELECTIONS


    ENVIRONMENT


    FRENCH POLITICS


    SPORTS


    FRENCH DELIGHTS


    The docks of the port of Antwerp, September 2022© Sébastien Van MalleghemSÉBASTIEN VAN MALLEGHEM FOR 'LE MONDE'
    'Narco-state' fears in Belgium after summer of violence
    By Jean-Pierre Stroobants (Brussels, Europe bureau)
    Published on September 21, 2022 at 16h12, updated at 12h27 on September 27, 2022
    5 min.
    Lire en Français
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    FEATUREWith up to €60 billion of drugs a year passing through the port city of Antwerp, the epicentre of Europe's cocaine trade, the country is facing escalating gang attacks.

    On September 15, in Brussels, the Belgian prime minister, three federal ministers (of the interior, justice and health), the federal prosecutor and 14 mayors met to discuss a long-neglected issue: drug trafficking, which has led to an unprecedented flare-up of violence in the country this summer. "At last," said one magistrate, who has been decrying the authorities' slow response for years. He says the situation has reached the point at which it is now a matter of stopping the country becoming a "narco-state."

    It all started in 2012, when Dutch traffickers kidnapped one of the members of a family who had tried to steal a batch of cocaine offloaded from a container at the port of Antwerp. The family relented when they received a photo of the meat grinder the kidnappers were threatening to feed the young man into.

    Since then, the violence has not stopped – and this summer there have been shootings, attempted arson, stabbings (leaving one person dead) and grenade attacks on homes and businesses. These have been primarily in the Belgian capital, where a turf war is taking place, but have also occurred in Antwerp, where the port has been the epicenter of cocaine trafficking in Europe for years. Nearly 90 tons were seized there in 2021, while another 28 tons were confiscated in South America on their way to Belgium"

    Belgium is a fine civilization but it's not much of a state. It was created to be an ineffectual border state and it is.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @YetAnotherAnon

    The Marc Dutroux murders make Belgium look both corrupt and incompetent, as well as being a fairly rare example of perhaps a proto-Epstein with murder trimmings. And the number of deaths of people involved either in the case or the investigation is remarkable, Hillary-scale.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Dutroux

    • Replies: @MGB
    @YetAnotherAnon


    Marc Dutroux
     
    beat me to it. I have heard Belgium described as the 'Nigeria of Europe', what with all the drugs and arms smuggling, prostitution and other unseemly stuff going on under the nose of and involvement with Belgium's elite. There was a movie about it that used to be on Netflix, De Zaak Alzheimer or something like that (alzheimer case) about a guy involved in the business who is deteriorating mentally and is a threat to the elite on account of it. When i used to follow Gladio stuff more closely, there was the case of the Brabant Massacre, in Brussels i think, a bunch of military types shooting up a grocery store for no apparent reason. Part of the years of lead/strategy of tension going on in europe.

    Replies: @Sam Malone

  182. @duncsbaby
    @Daniel H

    I fear the Turner diaries scenario you envision is more likely to involve a reversal of the races doing the lynching. In America's current state the potential for wholesale brutality which is what will be needed in a race war exists overwhelmingly w/the BIPOC masses, who all hate Whitey.

    Replies: @JR Ewing

    Have you read the Turner Diaries? That’s basically how it starts out. The vibrants are enlisted to confiscate guns and dole out extrajudicial treatment and eventually whitey gets fed up with it and fights back.

  183. This oil field guy says it’s Ruski incompetence.

    https://thelawdogfiles.com/2022/09/nordstream.html

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Jim Don Bob

    In 1994 I was stuck in Ireland for an extra day because the Irish flight crew was still drunk from celebrating Ireland's surprise World Cup victory over defending champion Italy. I had a chance to fly home on a Russian airliner.

    I passed.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Chrisnonymous

    , @Loyalty Over IQ Worship
    @Jim Don Bob

    Certain guys have a real ego problem with Russians. The funny thing is, it was never the Russians who were the real threat when it came to international communism. That threat, the one that really caused us trouble, came from traitors all over the West.

    Some of those same types are now deeply anti-Russian. Jilted lover?

  184. @Jim Don Bob
    This oil field guy says it's Ruski incompetence.

    https://thelawdogfiles.com/2022/09/nordstream.html

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Loyalty Over IQ Worship

    In 1994 I was stuck in Ireland for an extra day because the Irish flight crew was still drunk from celebrating Ireland’s surprise World Cup victory over defending champion Italy. I had a chance to fly home on a Russian airliner.

    I passed.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Steve Sailer

    My mother in law once took an internal flight Soviet flight on the old Aeroflot when they flew Soviet jets. The overhead bins were open racks. At mealtime (at least there was a meal service) the stewardesses came down the aisle with trays of chicken leg quarters and plopped one onto each passenger's tray. But the most memorable part of the flight was when a guy in coveralls and carrying a screwdriver and a flashlight came hurrying down the aisle midflight. Whatever it was must have been minor because they made it OK.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    , @Chrisnonymous
    @Steve Sailer

    When I posted something about Japan a few years and you made a withering commentt about how you weren't very interested in things Japanese, I just took it for de gustibus. But now I see you are rather parochial.

  185. @Jim Don Bob
    This oil field guy says it's Ruski incompetence.

    https://thelawdogfiles.com/2022/09/nordstream.html

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Loyalty Over IQ Worship

    Certain guys have a real ego problem with Russians. The funny thing is, it was never the Russians who were the real threat when it came to international communism. That threat, the one that really caused us trouble, came from traitors all over the West.

    Some of those same types are now deeply anti-Russian. Jilted lover?

  186. @Steve Sailer
    @Jim Don Bob

    In 1994 I was stuck in Ireland for an extra day because the Irish flight crew was still drunk from celebrating Ireland's surprise World Cup victory over defending champion Italy. I had a chance to fly home on a Russian airliner.

    I passed.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Chrisnonymous

    My mother in law once took an internal flight Soviet flight on the old Aeroflot when they flew Soviet jets. The overhead bins were open racks. At mealtime (at least there was a meal service) the stewardesses came down the aisle with trays of chicken leg quarters and plopped one onto each passenger’s tray. But the most memorable part of the flight was when a guy in coveralls and carrying a screwdriver and a flashlight came hurrying down the aisle midflight. Whatever it was must have been minor because they made it OK.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Jack D

    The Soviet system was full on communist. If you had used Chinese products at one point they were all terrible. Now they’re much improved.

    Communism makes lousy consumer products.

    Replies: @Jack D

  187. Apparently the two guys beside him are the Speaker of the Parliament and Prime Minister.

  188. The correct response to the shills who deny it was the U.S. is:
    “So you’re saying Joe Biden is a liar then!”

  189. Putin’s annexation speech is far ranging and deranged – this war is not just against Ukraine but the satanic forces of globo-hom0-merica, the root of all evil, the country where all children are given forced sex change operations, etc.

    I realize that Russians normally present with a deadpan affect (at least when they are not drunk) but it seemed to me that the audience was unusually nonplussed – they sat politely and listened to the ranting but I didn’t get the feeling that they were really into it.

  190. Here is Putin giving the earlier version of the same speech in 2014 when he annexes Crimea but the audience reaction is very different – people are smiling and nodding along and applauding enthusiastically and not just politely.

    • Replies: @al gore rhythms
    @Jack D

    "the country where all children are given forced sex change operations, etc."

    How utterly ridiculous! Everyone knows that American children have VOLUNTARY sex changes--something that trans Russian children cannot do, because nursery school education in Russia panders to the prejudices of parents and denies children their right to learn about how sex and gender were socially constructed by transphobic and anti-semitic Christians.

    Replies: @Jack D

  191. @Jack D
    Here is Putin giving the earlier version of the same speech in 2014 when he annexes Crimea but the audience reaction is very different - people are smiling and nodding along and applauding enthusiastically and not just politely.

    https://youtu.be/Ayu3Ecdbl0Q?t=2392

    Replies: @al gore rhythms

    “the country where all children are given forced sex change operations, etc.”

    How utterly ridiculous! Everyone knows that American children have VOLUNTARY sex changes–something that trans Russian children cannot do, because nursery school education in Russia panders to the prejudices of parents and denies children their right to learn about how sex and gender were socially constructed by transphobic and anti-semitic Christians.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @al gore rhythms

    Regardless of who does or does not get sex change operations in America, I think Putin was ranging pretty far afield in a speech on why he was annexing part of Ukraine.

    Putin needs (for domestic purposes) to make this a war with NATO and especially the US because he is losing on the battlefield. It's inconceivable to Russians that the Ukrainians could have beaten them. It would be as if the Yankees were beaten by a girls Little League team - it's just inconceivable and such a loss would be humiliating - Putin's regime could not withstand such a loss.

    IF however, this is a war with America and they lose, that would at least be an honorable loss against a worthy adversary. If the Yankees play the Red Sox, sure it's better if they win but losing against an evenly matched adversary is not a dishonor - you win some and you lose some. Putin's only path to losing and staying in power is to convince the Russian public that they didn't lose against Ukraine, they lost against America, sooper dooper extra eeevil America.

    Replies: @Johann Ricke

  192. @Steve Sailer
    @michael droy

    "I can’t see Ukraine doing it themselves – after all they don’t seem to manage the tanks and artillery given them without a great deal of “mercenary” assistance."

    Judging by battlefield results, the Ukrainians seem to be pretty competent and motivated white men when it comes to modern warfare.

    This operation doesn't seem all that complicated. For example, you could buy a fishing boat anywhere in the Atlantic and staff it with your own fishermen and a handful of deep sea divers. You purchase undersea mining explosives somewhere, such as Belgium where they don't ask too many questions. Heck, you could go to West Africa if needed. You sail it to the Baltic for the herring harvest. At night, you happen to drift over the pipeline, send your divers down, then move on before dawn. Repeat as needed. A week later when you are back at home, the timers go off.

    Any state along the North Atlantic could have pulled this off, but for the noncombatants it would be a sizable escalation and thus a big risk.

    There are two combatants: Russia and Ukraine. The argument that blowing up Russia's own strategic pipeline would be in Russia's interest seems strained to me. The argument that it would seem worth the risk to Ukraine, which is fighting for its national survival, seems pretty plausible.

    Occam's Razor points toward Ukraine.

    Replies: @Loyalty Over IQ Worship, @Thoughts, @Coemgen, @Bill B., @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Chrisnonymous, @Dmon, @Gordo, @Intelligent Dasein, @Anon, @Pixo, @JimB

    Occam’s Razor points toward Ukraine.

    Occam’s Razor points to the US. I sometimes wonder if Steve reads his fellow columnists on the Unz Review. Larry Johnson is the only guy doing a decent job covering the US proxy war against Russia and Germany.

  193. Forget about the NYT et al. The CIA is now the number one “ISteve content generator”, but un-ironically.

  194. @YetAnotherAnon
    @Steve Sailer

    The Marc Dutroux murders make Belgium look both corrupt and incompetent, as well as being a fairly rare example of perhaps a proto-Epstein with murder trimmings. And the number of deaths of people involved either in the case or the investigation is remarkable, Hillary-scale.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Dutroux

    Replies: @MGB

    Marc Dutroux

    beat me to it. I have heard Belgium described as the ‘Nigeria of Europe’, what with all the drugs and arms smuggling, prostitution and other unseemly stuff going on under the nose of and involvement with Belgium’s elite. There was a movie about it that used to be on Netflix, De Zaak Alzheimer or something like that (alzheimer case) about a guy involved in the business who is deteriorating mentally and is a threat to the elite on account of it. When i used to follow Gladio stuff more closely, there was the case of the Brabant Massacre, in Brussels i think, a bunch of military types shooting up a grocery store for no apparent reason. Part of the years of lead/strategy of tension going on in europe.

    • Replies: @Sam Malone
    @MGB

    Did the Gladio units actually devolve into quasi terrorism against civilians in some European countries by the 70s or so? It seems like almost of all the information about those national networks was never released other than that they existed, even after 1991. It seems like 95% of whatever the hell those things were and what they were used for and what they started doing on their own was guarded incredibly carefully. It makes you wonder.

  195. @YetAnotherAnon
    @Jack D

    "Franklin said, “two may keep a secret, if one of them be dead.”"

    Franklin (in Poor Richard's Almanack IIRC) was channeling Henry VIII - "three may keep a secret, if two be away, and if I thought my cap knew my secrets I would take it off and burn it".

    Replies: @MGB

    Franklin (in Poor Richard’s Almanack IIRC) was channeling Henry VIII – “three may keep a secret, if two be away, and if I thought my cap knew my secrets I would take it off and burn it“

    .

    brilliant. fortune cookies describing spy craft. no, nobody ever conspires with multiple others to commit crimes, and certainly not intelligence agencies. just a bunch of lone 007s doing their thing.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @MGB

    No, it means that you keep information as compartmentalized as possible. Ideally, in a conspiracy only the person at the center has the complete picture and everyone else knows only what he needs to know to carry out his particular task.

  196. @MGB
    @YetAnotherAnon


    Franklin (in Poor Richard’s Almanack IIRC) was channeling Henry VIII – “three may keep a secret, if two be away, and if I thought my cap knew my secrets I would take it off and burn it“
     
    .

    brilliant. fortune cookies describing spy craft. no, nobody ever conspires with multiple others to commit crimes, and certainly not intelligence agencies. just a bunch of lone 007s doing their thing.

    Replies: @Jack D

    No, it means that you keep information as compartmentalized as possible. Ideally, in a conspiracy only the person at the center has the complete picture and everyone else knows only what he needs to know to carry out his particular task.

  197. @al gore rhythms
    @Jack D

    "the country where all children are given forced sex change operations, etc."

    How utterly ridiculous! Everyone knows that American children have VOLUNTARY sex changes--something that trans Russian children cannot do, because nursery school education in Russia panders to the prejudices of parents and denies children their right to learn about how sex and gender were socially constructed by transphobic and anti-semitic Christians.

    Replies: @Jack D

    Regardless of who does or does not get sex change operations in America, I think Putin was ranging pretty far afield in a speech on why he was annexing part of Ukraine.

    Putin needs (for domestic purposes) to make this a war with NATO and especially the US because he is losing on the battlefield. It’s inconceivable to Russians that the Ukrainians could have beaten them. It would be as if the Yankees were beaten by a girls Little League team – it’s just inconceivable and such a loss would be humiliating – Putin’s regime could not withstand such a loss.

    IF however, this is a war with America and they lose, that would at least be an honorable loss against a worthy adversary. If the Yankees play the Red Sox, sure it’s better if they win but losing against an evenly matched adversary is not a dishonor – you win some and you lose some. Putin’s only path to losing and staying in power is to convince the Russian public that they didn’t lose against Ukraine, they lost against America, sooper dooper extra eeevil America.

    • Replies: @Johann Ricke
    @Jack D


    It would be as if the Yankees were beaten by a girls Little League team – it’s just inconceivable and such a loss would be humiliating – Putin’s regime could not withstand such a loss.
     
    I don't understand why you need to recycle MSM garbage manufactured out of thin air. Nicholas II lost against Japan, a nation indistinguishable in Russian eyes from the other vaguely subhuman Orientals Russia had subdued for hundreds of years. And yet the Romanovs remained in power until millions of Russians were killed in WWI. Gaddafi lost against *Chad*, a sub-Saharan country populated by blacks - a race for whom the Arab synonym is "slave". He stayed in power until Western pilots destroyed the military units he had husbanded to crush internal revolts. Syria has *never* won a war against Israel. The Assads have been in power through repeated defeats to Israel, a country a fraction of Syria's size in land and population. The standard excuse? Wasn't just Jews they were fighting, but Uncle Sam.

    Saddam lost financially ruinous wars vis-a-vis Iran and Kuwait. And yet, until Uncle Sam dragged him out of his hideout, he was in charge of the Iraqi insurgency. If Uncle Sam had pulled out before he was executed, he would likely have ousted whatever regime the US had stood up and regained power. These people aren't in power because of serendipity or dynastic inheritance. They schemed and manipulated their way to power. They are not easily displaced.

    Replies: @Jack D

  198. I just watched Brandon struggling to read what (((his scriptwriters))) put on his teleprompter.

    Recall that after the collapse of the USSR, (((NATO))) promised Russia it would not advance “one inch” toward Russian borders. Since then, NATO has advanced a couple dozen countries toward Russia’s borders. All the while, Putin begged NATO to honor its promise, and all the while NATO mocked him. Putin finally drew his line in the sand at Ukraine, which NATO’s (((warmongers))) were happy to cross.

    And now Brandon’s (((speechwriters))) have him declaring that NATO would not yield “one inch” of Ukraine to Russia. Brandon awkwardly repeated this NATO-one inch link three times.

    Kardashian-obsessed minds are now programmed — NATO’s “one inch” now refers to Ukraine — not to its solemn promise of non-aggression toward Russia.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Pat Kittle


    (((NATO))) promised Russia it would not advance “one inch” toward Russian borders.
     
    Can you give us a link to the treaty or document where this was promised? No you can't because it doesn't exist except in Putin's imaginary retelling of history. Even Putin doesn't confuse Jews with NATO.

    Replies: @BosTex

    , @MGB
    @Pat Kittle

    Pat, you’re not dealing with someone who has a good faith interest in history. Not that you need to, since you got the gist of it obviously, but the national security archives through GWU have documentation of promises that NATO would not move ‘one inch’ forward beyond a unified Germany, according to meetings minutes between James Baker and Gorbachev, Shevardnadze, etc. The whole premise of the promise was that a unified Germany in NATO would be less militaristic, and less likely to pursue a nuclear weapons program, while an independent Germany, which was already talking about reclaiming lost territory in Poland during reunification negotiations, would destabilize Europe, as would NATO expansion. That was the trade off. We keep unified Germany on a leash in NATO, and NATO won’t expand beyond Germany.

  199. @Jack D
    @al gore rhythms

    Regardless of who does or does not get sex change operations in America, I think Putin was ranging pretty far afield in a speech on why he was annexing part of Ukraine.

    Putin needs (for domestic purposes) to make this a war with NATO and especially the US because he is losing on the battlefield. It's inconceivable to Russians that the Ukrainians could have beaten them. It would be as if the Yankees were beaten by a girls Little League team - it's just inconceivable and such a loss would be humiliating - Putin's regime could not withstand such a loss.

    IF however, this is a war with America and they lose, that would at least be an honorable loss against a worthy adversary. If the Yankees play the Red Sox, sure it's better if they win but losing against an evenly matched adversary is not a dishonor - you win some and you lose some. Putin's only path to losing and staying in power is to convince the Russian public that they didn't lose against Ukraine, they lost against America, sooper dooper extra eeevil America.

    Replies: @Johann Ricke

    It would be as if the Yankees were beaten by a girls Little League team – it’s just inconceivable and such a loss would be humiliating – Putin’s regime could not withstand such a loss.

    I don’t understand why you need to recycle MSM garbage manufactured out of thin air. Nicholas II lost against Japan, a nation indistinguishable in Russian eyes from the other vaguely subhuman Orientals Russia had subdued for hundreds of years. And yet the Romanovs remained in power until millions of Russians were killed in WWI. Gaddafi lost against *Chad*, a sub-Saharan country populated by blacks – a race for whom the Arab synonym is “slave”. He stayed in power until Western pilots destroyed the military units he had husbanded to crush internal revolts. Syria has *never* won a war against Israel. The Assads have been in power through repeated defeats to Israel, a country a fraction of Syria’s size in land and population. The standard excuse? Wasn’t just Jews they were fighting, but Uncle Sam.

    Saddam lost financially ruinous wars vis-a-vis Iran and Kuwait. And yet, until Uncle Sam dragged him out of his hideout, he was in charge of the Iraqi insurgency. If Uncle Sam had pulled out before he was executed, he would likely have ousted whatever regime the US had stood up and regained power. These people aren’t in power because of serendipity or dynastic inheritance. They schemed and manipulated their way to power. They are not easily displaced.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Johann Ricke

    It's true that the Romanovs remained in power but the loss did prompt the Revolution of 1905 which trimmed the Czar's power and set the stage for the later revolution.

    Replies: @Johann Ricke

  200. @Jack D
    @Steve Sailer

    My mother in law once took an internal flight Soviet flight on the old Aeroflot when they flew Soviet jets. The overhead bins were open racks. At mealtime (at least there was a meal service) the stewardesses came down the aisle with trays of chicken leg quarters and plopped one onto each passenger's tray. But the most memorable part of the flight was when a guy in coveralls and carrying a screwdriver and a flashlight came hurrying down the aisle midflight. Whatever it was must have been minor because they made it OK.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    The Soviet system was full on communist. If you had used Chinese products at one point they were all terrible. Now they’re much improved.

    Communism makes lousy consumer products.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Anonymous

    The only reason the Russians had airliners at all is that jets are dual military/civilian use. USSR had a "military first" economy and consumer products were an afterthought.

    The flip side of this is that the military stuff was built to a somewhat high standard so that the civilian versions of military products were not half bad. The stuff that had no military counterpart, if it was available at all, was usually worse.

    Soviet stuff was often of outdated design and poorly manufactured but not shoddy like Chinese stuff because they weren't trying to go for "cheap" - given the planned economy " high profits" was a barely meaningful concept. Some things, like the Lada cars, were actually quite rugged compared to their Western counterparts because they were designed with Soviet conditions in mind - bad roads and lack of trained technicians. Also the fact that they kept the same basic design for decades allowed them to refine it. The Fiat 124 was built for 8 years but the Lada was built for 40.

  201. @MGB
    @YetAnotherAnon


    Marc Dutroux
     
    beat me to it. I have heard Belgium described as the 'Nigeria of Europe', what with all the drugs and arms smuggling, prostitution and other unseemly stuff going on under the nose of and involvement with Belgium's elite. There was a movie about it that used to be on Netflix, De Zaak Alzheimer or something like that (alzheimer case) about a guy involved in the business who is deteriorating mentally and is a threat to the elite on account of it. When i used to follow Gladio stuff more closely, there was the case of the Brabant Massacre, in Brussels i think, a bunch of military types shooting up a grocery store for no apparent reason. Part of the years of lead/strategy of tension going on in europe.

    Replies: @Sam Malone

    Did the Gladio units actually devolve into quasi terrorism against civilians in some European countries by the 70s or so? It seems like almost of all the information about those national networks was never released other than that they existed, even after 1991. It seems like 95% of whatever the hell those things were and what they were used for and what they started doing on their own was guarded incredibly carefully. It makes you wonder.

  202. Steve Sailer Retweeted:

  203. @Steve Sailer
    @Jim Don Bob

    In 1994 I was stuck in Ireland for an extra day because the Irish flight crew was still drunk from celebrating Ireland's surprise World Cup victory over defending champion Italy. I had a chance to fly home on a Russian airliner.

    I passed.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Chrisnonymous

    When I posted something about Japan a few years and you made a withering commentt about how you weren’t very interested in things Japanese, I just took it for de gustibus. But now I see you are rather parochial.

  204. @Anonymous
    @Jack D

    The Soviet system was full on communist. If you had used Chinese products at one point they were all terrible. Now they’re much improved.

    Communism makes lousy consumer products.

    Replies: @Jack D

    The only reason the Russians had airliners at all is that jets are dual military/civilian use. USSR had a “military first” economy and consumer products were an afterthought.

    The flip side of this is that the military stuff was built to a somewhat high standard so that the civilian versions of military products were not half bad. The stuff that had no military counterpart, if it was available at all, was usually worse.

    Soviet stuff was often of outdated design and poorly manufactured but not shoddy like Chinese stuff because they weren’t trying to go for “cheap” – given the planned economy ” high profits” was a barely meaningful concept. Some things, like the Lada cars, were actually quite rugged compared to their Western counterparts because they were designed with Soviet conditions in mind – bad roads and lack of trained technicians. Also the fact that they kept the same basic design for decades allowed them to refine it. The Fiat 124 was built for 8 years but the Lada was built for 40.

  205. @Pat Kittle
    I just watched Brandon struggling to read what (((his scriptwriters))) put on his teleprompter.

    Recall that after the collapse of the USSR, (((NATO))) promised Russia it would not advance "one inch" toward Russian borders. Since then, NATO has advanced a couple dozen countries toward Russia's borders. All the while, Putin begged NATO to honor its promise, and all the while NATO mocked him. Putin finally drew his line in the sand at Ukraine, which NATO's (((warmongers))) were happy to cross.

    And now Brandon's (((speechwriters))) have him declaring that NATO would not yield "one inch" of Ukraine to Russia. Brandon awkwardly repeated this NATO-one inch link three times.

    Kardashian-obsessed minds are now programmed -- NATO's "one inch" now refers to Ukraine -- not to its solemn promise of non-aggression toward Russia.

    Replies: @Jack D, @MGB

    (((NATO))) promised Russia it would not advance “one inch” toward Russian borders.

    Can you give us a link to the treaty or document where this was promised? No you can’t because it doesn’t exist except in Putin’s imaginary retelling of history. Even Putin doesn’t confuse Jews with NATO.

    • Replies: @BosTex
    @Jack D

    https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/newly-declassified-documents-gorbachev-told-nato-wouldnt-23629

    Jack, kindly review here

  206. @Johann Ricke
    @Jack D


    It would be as if the Yankees were beaten by a girls Little League team – it’s just inconceivable and such a loss would be humiliating – Putin’s regime could not withstand such a loss.
     
    I don't understand why you need to recycle MSM garbage manufactured out of thin air. Nicholas II lost against Japan, a nation indistinguishable in Russian eyes from the other vaguely subhuman Orientals Russia had subdued for hundreds of years. And yet the Romanovs remained in power until millions of Russians were killed in WWI. Gaddafi lost against *Chad*, a sub-Saharan country populated by blacks - a race for whom the Arab synonym is "slave". He stayed in power until Western pilots destroyed the military units he had husbanded to crush internal revolts. Syria has *never* won a war against Israel. The Assads have been in power through repeated defeats to Israel, a country a fraction of Syria's size in land and population. The standard excuse? Wasn't just Jews they were fighting, but Uncle Sam.

    Saddam lost financially ruinous wars vis-a-vis Iran and Kuwait. And yet, until Uncle Sam dragged him out of his hideout, he was in charge of the Iraqi insurgency. If Uncle Sam had pulled out before he was executed, he would likely have ousted whatever regime the US had stood up and regained power. These people aren't in power because of serendipity or dynastic inheritance. They schemed and manipulated their way to power. They are not easily displaced.

    Replies: @Jack D

    It’s true that the Romanovs remained in power but the loss did prompt the Revolution of 1905 which trimmed the Czar’s power and set the stage for the later revolution.

    • Replies: @Johann Ricke
    @Jack D


    It’s true that the Romanovs remained in power but the loss did prompt the Revolution of 1905 which trimmed the Czar’s power and set the stage for the later revolution.
     
    WWI also put an end to the Hohenzollerns, the Hapsburgs and the Ottomans. And all entities had somehow soldiered on despite other military setbacks. But the common factor in all of these collapses? Millions of dead on each side.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties

    Another factor was probably inherited power. They relied on the divine right of kings for their authority. Obedience to the ruling house was implicit and instinctive, until it wasn't. Putin doesn't rely on any of that, any more than Saddam, Gaddafi or Idi Amin did. They came to power based on scheming and maneuvering and maintained that power using security services they shaped with their own two hands. That's why Saddam, Gaddafi and Idi Amin had to be ejected with assistance from foreign powers (the US, the US and Tanzania, respectively).
  207. @Jack D
    @Johann Ricke

    It's true that the Romanovs remained in power but the loss did prompt the Revolution of 1905 which trimmed the Czar's power and set the stage for the later revolution.

    Replies: @Johann Ricke

    It’s true that the Romanovs remained in power but the loss did prompt the Revolution of 1905 which trimmed the Czar’s power and set the stage for the later revolution.

    WWI also put an end to the Hohenzollerns, the Hapsburgs and the Ottomans. And all entities had somehow soldiered on despite other military setbacks. But the common factor in all of these collapses? Millions of dead on each side.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties

    Another factor was probably inherited power. They relied on the divine right of kings for their authority. Obedience to the ruling house was implicit and instinctive, until it wasn’t. Putin doesn’t rely on any of that, any more than Saddam, Gaddafi or Idi Amin did. They came to power based on scheming and maneuvering and maintained that power using security services they shaped with their own two hands. That’s why Saddam, Gaddafi and Idi Amin had to be ejected with assistance from foreign powers (the US, the US and Tanzania, respectively).

  208. @Pat Kittle
    I just watched Brandon struggling to read what (((his scriptwriters))) put on his teleprompter.

    Recall that after the collapse of the USSR, (((NATO))) promised Russia it would not advance "one inch" toward Russian borders. Since then, NATO has advanced a couple dozen countries toward Russia's borders. All the while, Putin begged NATO to honor its promise, and all the while NATO mocked him. Putin finally drew his line in the sand at Ukraine, which NATO's (((warmongers))) were happy to cross.

    And now Brandon's (((speechwriters))) have him declaring that NATO would not yield "one inch" of Ukraine to Russia. Brandon awkwardly repeated this NATO-one inch link three times.

    Kardashian-obsessed minds are now programmed -- NATO's "one inch" now refers to Ukraine -- not to its solemn promise of non-aggression toward Russia.

    Replies: @Jack D, @MGB

    Pat, you’re not dealing with someone who has a good faith interest in history. Not that you need to, since you got the gist of it obviously, but the national security archives through GWU have documentation of promises that NATO would not move ‘one inch’ forward beyond a unified Germany, according to meetings minutes between James Baker and Gorbachev, Shevardnadze, etc. The whole premise of the promise was that a unified Germany in NATO would be less militaristic, and less likely to pursue a nuclear weapons program, while an independent Germany, which was already talking about reclaiming lost territory in Poland during reunification negotiations, would destabilize Europe, as would NATO expansion. That was the trade off. We keep unified Germany on a leash in NATO, and NATO won’t expand beyond Germany.

    • Thanks: MEH 0910
  209. @Jack D
    @Pat Kittle


    (((NATO))) promised Russia it would not advance “one inch” toward Russian borders.
     
    Can you give us a link to the treaty or document where this was promised? No you can't because it doesn't exist except in Putin's imaginary retelling of history. Even Putin doesn't confuse Jews with NATO.

    Replies: @BosTex

  210. Here’s a guy who thinks the US did it with a air launched torpedo from a P-8.

    https://www.monkeywerxus.com/blog/the-nord-stream-2-pipeline-sabotage

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