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New Racial Admixture and Cognitive Performance Study
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Here’s a new and fascinating (if intellectually challenging for me lately — I’m more into Fireworks Explosions these days) preprint scientific paper on racial admixture and cognitive performance, in the vein of the earlier admixture analysis of the Philadelphia Neurodevelopmental Cohort that I posted about in 2019.

This new admixture study is of 9,972 children in the national Adolescent Brain Cognitive Development study (ABCD). ABCD is a lavish study with a budget that appears to be somewhere around a half billion dollars. It not only looks at DNA and gives extensive neuropsychological performance tests, it’s going to include an MRI brain scan of each child every two years for a decade. Wow.

Linear and partially linear models of behavioural trait variation using admixture regression

Version 2, June 17, 2021

Gregory Connor, Maynooth University

Bryan J. Pesta, Cleveland State University

Abstract

Admixture regression methodology exploits the natural experiment of random mating between individuals with different ancestral backgrounds to infer the environmental and genetic components to trait variation across culturally-defined racial and ethnic groups. This paper provides a new statistical framework for admixture regression based on the linear polygenic index model widely used in behavioural genetics. Using this framework we develop a new test of the differential impact of multi-racial identities on trait variation, an orthogonalization procedure for added explanatory variables, and a partially linear semiparametric functional form. The methodology is illustrated with data from the Adolescent Brain Cognitive Development Study. …

The Adolescent Brain Cognitive Development Study (ABCD) is a collaborative longitudinal project between 21 sites across the US. Its goal is to further research into the psychological and neurobiological basis of development. At baseline, around 11,000 9-10 year old children were sampled, using a probabilistic sampling strategy, from public and private elementary schools and through non-school-based community outreach between 2016 and 2018, with the goal of creating a broadly representative sample of US children of this age. Children who were not fluent in English (or whose parents were not fluent in either English or Spanish) were excluded, along with those with severe medical, neurological, or psychiatric conditions.

They have both DNA ancestry and Self-Identified Race/Ethnicity for the sample. In this table, the child’s race/ethnicity according to the parent’s identification is listed in the leftmost column and the racial ancestry from the DNA are across columns.

For example, the 5,498 subjects who self-identified as only non-Hispanic white averaged 9.93 years old, had genes suggesting 97% European ancestry, 1% African ancestry, 1% South Asian ancestry, with “neuropsychiatric performance” of 0.25 standard deviations above average, and a socio-economic-status 0.41 standard deviations above average.

The NIH Toolbox (NIHTBX) neuropsychological battery was designed to measure a broad range of cognitive abilities. It consists of seven tasks which index attention (Flanker Inhibitory Control and Attention Task), episodic memory (Picture Sequence Memory Task), language abilities (Picture Vocabulary Task & Oral Reading Recognition Task), executive function (Dimensional Change Card Sort Task & Flanker Inhibitory Control and Attention Task), processing speed (Pattern Comparison Processing Speed Task), and working memory (List Sorting Working Memory Task) (Akshoomoff et al., 2014; Weintraub et al., 2013). NIHTBX was normed for samples between ages 3 and 85; tasks correlate highly with comparable ability assessments (Weintraub et al., 2013). Moreover, this battery has been shown to be measurement invariant across American ethnic groups (Lasker, Pesta, Fuerst, & Kirkegaard, 2019).

Here are a couple of interesting graphs. This first one shows African ancestry percentage from DNA along the horizontal axis:

This shows that American children have three peaks for African ancestry. Reading from right to left, a number are around 83% black (presumably, regular African-Americans with no white parents or grandparents), around 42% black (presumably, one regular African-American parent and one non-black parent), and quite a few with a few percent black ancestry. (People with a little black ancestry, presumably who don’t identify as black — i.e., an ancestor passed; I’ll try to go back to figure out if this includes Hispanics later.)

Here’s a graph of the average neuropsychological battery score on the vertical axis and the percent African ancestry on the horizontal axis.

This shows a negative correlation between admixture of African ancestry, except at the near 100% black level. I’m guessing that 100% black children tend to be of recent black immigrant stock.

It would be interesting to see a scatter plot of this data. The 2019 study’s scatter plot showed a lot of variation.

I will keep grappling with this paper, which is pitched around my cognitive ceiling.

 
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  1. • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @JohnnyWalker123

    Good grief, what dumbf*cks ....

  2. anonymous[143] • Disclaimer says:

    The South Asians have the highest socio-economic status (household income?) of all groups but “neuropsychiatric performance” wedged in between whites and East Asians. Does that mean some reversion of the mean is occurring among the children of intellectually elite Indian immigrants in the US?

    • Agree: Some Guy
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @anonymous

    Sample size issues?

    Replies: @Not Raul

    , @Some Guy
    @anonymous

    The "South Asian and White" on the other hand has the highest "IQ".

    Perhaps partly because Indians having children with whites aren't having children with people from their own highly endogamous caste, which normally depresses IQ.

    Does anyone know if Ashkenazi often intermarry with Indians?

    , @Polistra
    @anonymous

    Income data can be had for the asking but just try and find household wealth data broken down on ethnic lines. The differences between median and mean are alone enough to start a revolution.

    Replies: @JMcG

    , @rec1man
    @anonymous

    1) https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/fact-sheet/asian-americans-indians-in-the-u-s/

    75% of US born, ( 2nd generation ) Indians, have a college degree, hence no reversion to mean detected

    2) The caste composition of this sample is not known, IQ varies by caste

    3) Even average IQ Indians in USA, are very rich, consider a Patel, without a college degree, due to help from fellow Patels, buys a motel, and hence makes $100k

    4) Indians have 1% unwed mothers rate, and close to 0% jail rate, and save a lot of their income, - future time orientation, and hence much wealthier than predicted by just IQ

    , @J.Ross
    @anonymous

    Indians culturally have four stages of life, with one of the middle ones being "makes as much money as you possibly can." Indian families will have grandma watch the kids while the husband, wife, and possibly other appropriately aged relatives grind at the family business or defraud Medicare. They could be less intelligent and would probably make the same amount of money because their entire lives are geared to that and nothing in our society competes. Jews make money by either learning highly valued skills or using connections to corner a market or feeding addictions. Whites make money by working what they consider to be hard, and inferior whites make money by selling access to political office. Indians make money by dedicating their lives to chasing paper because you can learn your kid's name when you're retired and watching whatshisname's kids (your grandkids).

  3. @anonymous
    The South Asians have the highest socio-economic status (household income?) of all groups but “neuropsychiatric performance” wedged in between whites and East Asians. Does that mean some reversion of the mean is occurring among the children of intellectually elite Indian immigrants in the US?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Some Guy, @Polistra, @rec1man, @J.Ross

    Sample size issues?

    • Replies: @Not Raul
    @Steve Sailer

    Maybe different Indians moved to different parts of the country.

    Some areas have more high caste doctors, lawyers, and engineers; and other areas have more low caste agricultural workers, and the like.

  4. How do they control for environment?

    I’ll tell ya how. They don’t.

    • Replies: @ThreeCranes
    @obwandiyag

    It's generally accepted that adults create the environment (consciously or not) in which they believe their children stand the best chance of succeeding. Even trees do this by altering the chemical makeup of the surrounding soil so as to favor the growth of their own seedlings.

    The environment created by black people in America is the product of a deep instinctual wisdom which guides black parents in an effort to promote the likelihood of their children's success. Drug dealing, gang membership, flouting weapons and flashing cash on social media and the like are behaviors which will best advance a black child in the black community. Spending promiscuously on rims, hair weaves etc. may not "make sense" to a white person (who needs to display other qualities to advance in their own culture) but it is what "works" in a community of black people. Likewise, promiscuity, having children out of wedlock etc. are behaviors that offer the best hope for a black child's survival to adulthood.

    It sounds as though you have hopped on the bandwagon and are looking at and judging black people through the lens of a white person's eyes.

    The upshot of the data is fairly straightforward. The quickest way to get blacks to adopt white values and performance is to cross breed them with whites. Our Zionist leaders know this--though they won't say so publicly--which is why they promote miscegenation. Miscegenation is a two-fer for them. It both elevates blacks and depresses their direct competition, i.e. white Euros.

    Replies: @ThreeCranes, @Jonathan Mason

    , @ic1000
    @obwandiyag

    > How do they control for environment? I’ll tell ya how. They don’t.

    I'll give ya a constructive suggestion. If ya have to say dumb things, don't press "Publish Comment" until other people have contributed to the thread.

    Some of yaor comments are pretty good, so ya could up yaor game (like "Jonathan Mason" and a few other regulars). That would be even better.

    , @AnotherDad
    @obwandiyag


    How do they control for environment?

    I’ll tell ya how. They don’t.
     

    Correct. This is straight up performance/genetics.


    I'll note though that one of the stakes that absolutely nails down genetics as being a primary contributor to B/W performance gaps in the US is that "controlling for environment" shows that the most "environmentally privileged" blacks--the very top income slice--barely outperform the bottom cohort of whites--the folks with single moms, chaotic/disorganized lives, crappy diets, mediocre schools, etc.--on cognitive measures and are comparable on homicide.

    Even if you got comparable cognitive/criminal performance across the races at comparable socio-economic levels, there would still be the question "Why are there so many more of X than Y at the top level and so many more of Y than X at the bottom?" I.e. it would still be an open question as to whether genetics is driving the socio-economic skew.

    But we do not even see that. What we see is that blacks doing very, very well economically, kids in the same high end suburban public schools or private schools showing much worse performance in school and criminal violence. It isn't that there is just much lower percentage of blacks at middle/upper-middle/elite income levels, it is that the ones there perform much more poorly--not a little bit, but drastically--than whites.

    This fact--much poorer black cognitive/criminal performance at a given socio-economic/income level--just eviscerates the "racism" explanation and points strongly at a predominantly genetic cause.

    Replies: @obwandiyag

  5. Very interesting Steve!
    Children who identify as “Native American Only” are actually 15% Amerindian and 71% European, while the more numerous children who identify as “Native American and White” are 7% Amerindian and 90% European.

    A blonde and blue-eyed “indigenous” movement on the way?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Some Guy

    The term "Native American Only" might imply that they claim to be 100% American Indian, but I think it means that "Native American" was the only box the parent checked.

    Replies: @Chuck, @TWS

    , @ic1000
    @Some Guy

    > Children who identify as “Native American Only” are actually 15% Amerindian and 71% European

    My impression is that there are very few U.S. Native Americans whose ancestry is mostly Native American. There has been a great deal of introgression from Europeans, a lesser but significant amount from Africans.

    This is consistent with Charles Mann's idea ("1492") that Eurasian diseases (particularly influenza) caused an east-to-west wave of population crashes among North American populations. European/American hybrids likely fared better than purebred Americans.

    On the other hand, there are sizable numbers of Canadian, Mexican, and Central American indigenous people whose % of "Native American" DNA is quite high.

    Replies: @anon, @Bardon Kaldian, @Travis

    , @Hernan Pizzaro del Blanco
    @Some Guy

    The typical tribal member on American reservations has mostly Caucasian DNA. They have yet to find an American Indian who is less than 25% European. The average Cherokee tribe member is genetically 96% European. This is a big reason why Indian tribes oppose DNA studies. Tribal leaders are genetically more white than the average tribal member. Thus they strongly oppose DNA testing and are quite critical of DNA studies.

    The average white American in this study has more Indian DNA than Elizabeth Warren , the majority of white Americans can self-identify as Native American.

    Replies: @anon

  6. not gonna comment – just checking on stuff

    • Thanks: Jenner Ickham Errican
    • Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican
    @Lagertha

    Only kidding, Laggy. :)

  7. @anonymous
    The South Asians have the highest socio-economic status (household income?) of all groups but “neuropsychiatric performance” wedged in between whites and East Asians. Does that mean some reversion of the mean is occurring among the children of intellectually elite Indian immigrants in the US?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Some Guy, @Polistra, @rec1man, @J.Ross

    The “South Asian and White” on the other hand has the highest “IQ”.

    Perhaps partly because Indians having children with whites aren’t having children with people from their own highly endogamous caste, which normally depresses IQ.

    Does anyone know if Ashkenazi often intermarry with Indians?

  8. If the HBD worldview is correct, why isn’t the Middle East the apex of civilization? For thousands of years, the smartest men had access to the most women, often dozens of wives.

    It should be the land of the most beautiful and intelligent people on earth.

    Meanwhile, White people, who tended to practice monogamy, actually became what many considered the most beautiful and intelligent. Bear in mind, the ancient White pagans were generally monogamous, while the ancient Jews (who were not that smart) and most other people practiced polygamy big time.

    • Replies: @Some Guy
    @RichardTaylor


    For thousands of years, the smartest men had access to the most women, often dozens of wives.
     
    Wasn't this the case in say China too? Add to that the colder winters.

    Polygamy means many average men have to scrape the bottom of the barrel for wives, so perhaps there's an effect in the opposite direction from that.

    Also, suppose you had a clever wife and a sexy wife, which would end up bearing more of your children? That could mean dysgenics within a family.

    Replies: @RichardTaylor, @Reg Cæsar, @Jonathan Mason

    , @Anonymous
    @RichardTaylor

    Genetic data suggests humans have been moderately polygamous, with whites intermediate between blacks on the high end and Asians on the low end in the degree of polygamy. I imagine Middle Easterners would cluster in between somewhere as well.

    "Modern man found to be generally monogamous, moderately polygamous"

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100302112018.htm


    In a strictly monogamous population, one would expect to have an equal number of breeding females and males and, therefore, a breeding sex ratio of one female to one male. In a population where males tend to have more than one female mate, more females than males contribute to reproduction; for this reason the breeding ratio exceeds one. The authors of this study estimate that the breeding ratio varies between 1.1 and 1.4 according to population: 1.1 in Asia, 1.3 in Europe and 1.4 in Africa.

    Modern man or Homo sapiens would, therefore, usually have been monogamous while exhibiting tendencies toward polygamy over the course of evolutionary history. These findings are consistent with studies in evolutionary psychology and anthropology that depict contemporary human populations.
     

    Replies: @RichardTaylor

    , @AnotherDad
    @RichardTaylor


    If the HBD worldview is correct, why isn’t the Middle East the apex of civilization? For thousands of years, the smartest men had access to the most women, often dozens of wives.

     

    This isn't some deep logical conundrum--at least not to me.

    Polygamy--more or less our barbarous natural state--indeed allows high quality men to have more children. However, that comes with basically zero social trust. Men are continuously in violent competition for the available women. Smart capable young men, must devote their energies entirely to becoming a "big man", beating out other men--including older men--to get women. Huge resources are spent fighting and mate guarding. And the trust boundary ends at family (and maybe not even there!).

    In contrast societies that are able to enforce some sort of "one per customer" monogamy norm can build social trust. Men can turn their energies to something other than fighting and mate guarding and actually ... build stuff ... like "civilization". (Note, i realize the top dogs in many societies may be polygamous. Not important. What's important is that the farmer, the blacksmith, the shipwright, the cooper, the clerk ... can all find a wife, enjoy life and have a stake in the future.) There is still plenty of eugenic sexual competition with more capable successful men getting better women, having/supporting more surviving children.

    And, of course, without continual sexual competition men can trust each other at larger scales which allows more effective armies/combat that actually defeat lower trust--and more fractious--polygamous societies.

    Most effective at milking the monogamy cow obviously ... Western Christian civilization.

    Replies: @ic1000

    , @Kratoklastes
    @RichardTaylor


    If the HBD worldview is correct, why isn’t the Middle East the apex of civilization?
     
    Silly man... everyone knows that the apex of civilisation was to be found the hovels of rural Ukraine, Lithuania and Moldova in the early to mid 1800s.

    It used to be called the Pale of Settlement, and it had the largest concentration of Ashkenazim on the face of the Earth.

    Thus it was absolutely infested with people who were fully σ smarter than everyday humans. (This requires that you're stupid enough to believe that IQ numbers generated by testing elite Red Sea Pedestrians in NY, yields statistics that apply to all Ashkenazim).

    Think of all the things that you would get from such a concentration of people with a mean IQ of 115: steam engines; powered flight; massive improvements in technology...

    I'm sure that all of those things - the fundamental preconditions for modern industrial society - originated in the Pale, and that the supposed 'fact' that the Pale was a backwards shithole full of superstitious primitive lice-ridden idiots who believed in witchcraft is just another Blood Libel.

    It defies belief that a group of people σ smarter than reg'lar homo sapiens sapiens, would underfperform as badly as the denizens of the Pale.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    , @Daniel Chieh
    @RichardTaylor

    Probably has something to do with Bronze Age Collapse undermining a lot of setups there. It was the apex of civilization for a time: Sumer is the first civilization, the base 60 hour/minute and base 24 day tracks to them to this day.

  9. Sean says:

    This shows that American children have three peaks for African ancestry. Reading from right to left, a number are around 83% black (presumably, regular African-Americans with no white parents or grandparents), around 42% black (presumably, one regular African-American parent and one non-black parent)

    Usually, white mother. That is important for cognitive ability. Several point advantage over black mother according to the Minnesota adoption study data.

    Also, a more general point is that a father passes his X chromosome down unshuffled to a daughter, so the brainy people can know their IQ is from mom’s dad.

    • Replies: @anonymous
    @Sean


    Usually, white mother. That is important for cognitive ability. Several point advantage over black mother according to the Minnesota adoption study data.
     
    Does society have a duty to inform White women of the risk that mating with Blacks could cause their offspring’s cognitive ability to decline?

    Replies: @PaceLaw

  10. First time I’ve seen “Non-Hispanic” being used as an adjective for each category e.g. “NH White”, “NH Black”, “NH East Asian”, “NH South Asian”.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @anon

    Dinesh D'Souza is an Iberic South Asian.

    Replies: @Chuck, @rec1man, @Reg Cæsar

  11. @anonymous
    The South Asians have the highest socio-economic status (household income?) of all groups but “neuropsychiatric performance” wedged in between whites and East Asians. Does that mean some reversion of the mean is occurring among the children of intellectually elite Indian immigrants in the US?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Some Guy, @Polistra, @rec1man, @J.Ross

    Income data can be had for the asking but just try and find household wealth data broken down on ethnic lines. The differences between median and mean are alone enough to start a revolution.

    • Replies: @JMcG
    @Polistra

    Do you have a source for that data? I’d love to have a look.
    Thank you

  12. I will keep grappling with this paper, which is pitched around my cognitive ceiling.

    Mr. Sailer’s modest way of saying he’ll have it cracked for our benefit before we wake up in the morning.

  13. “African ancestry”? Does that include Egypt?

  14. @anon
    First time I've seen "Non-Hispanic" being used as an adjective for each category e.g. "NH White", "NH Black", "NH East Asian", "NH South Asian".

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Dinesh D’Souza is an Iberic South Asian.

    • Replies: @Chuck
    @Steve Sailer

    There was an updated Table 1, with differences owing to a coding error.
    You have to click, "View current version" https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.14.444173v2.full

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    , @rec1man
    @Steve Sailer

    Dinesh D Souza is a Goa Brahmin convert, likely converted during 250 year inquisition in Goa

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Steve Sailer


    Dinesh D’Souza is an Iberic South Asian.
     
    Goa way!

    Seriously, it was funny to see him at Mike Lindell's MAGA rally in Somerset, Wisconsin, earlier this month. Lindell and other American-born (male) speakers wore suits and ties, as did Donald Trump as always, albeit in an air-conditioned studio in some faraway locale.

    D'Souza, in contrast, wore a pink Polo shirt. It was in the mid 80°s, after a muggy week in the 90°s, so perhaps the local speakers felt it in relative terms. You'd think, though, that with his low-latitudes upbringing, he'd have been the most comfortable one there in formal dress.

    This is what they looked like:


    https://home.frankspeech.com/tv/video/dinesh-dsouza-interviews-mike-lindell-keep-faith

    Interestingly, he came here at 18, but has no trace of a subcontinental accent, except at his most excitable moments. That's highly unusual for adults who learn English as a foreign language. But English is not a foreign language in India, it's a second native one for many.

    India is analogous to Scotland in that respect. Is it much easier to shift accents in one's native (or near-native) tongue than to adopt foreign phonology?

  15. @Steve Sailer
    @anon

    Dinesh D'Souza is an Iberic South Asian.

    Replies: @Chuck, @rec1man, @Reg Cæsar

    There was an updated Table 1, with differences owing to a coding error.
    You have to click, “View current version” https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.14.444173v2.full

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Chuck

    Thanks.

    Are there major differences between the May 21 and the June 17 version?

    Replies: @Chuck, @Some Guy

  16. @Chuck
    @Steve Sailer

    There was an updated Table 1, with differences owing to a coding error.
    You have to click, "View current version" https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.14.444173v2.full

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Thanks.

    Are there major differences between the May 21 and the June 17 version?

    • Replies: @Chuck
    @Steve Sailer

    Just the tables. Not the regression results.

    , @Some Guy
    @Steve Sailer

    Only for Hispanic-White it seems, -0.19 instead of -0.65.

  17. @RichardTaylor
    If the HBD worldview is correct, why isn't the Middle East the apex of civilization? For thousands of years, the smartest men had access to the most women, often dozens of wives.

    It should be the land of the most beautiful and intelligent people on earth.

    Meanwhile, White people, who tended to practice monogamy, actually became what many considered the most beautiful and intelligent. Bear in mind, the ancient White pagans were generally monogamous, while the ancient Jews (who were not that smart) and most other people practiced polygamy big time.

    Replies: @Some Guy, @Anonymous, @AnotherDad, @Kratoklastes, @Daniel Chieh

    For thousands of years, the smartest men had access to the most women, often dozens of wives.

    Wasn’t this the case in say China too? Add to that the colder winters.

    Polygamy means many average men have to scrape the bottom of the barrel for wives, so perhaps there’s an effect in the opposite direction from that.

    Also, suppose you had a clever wife and a sexy wife, which would end up bearing more of your children? That could mean dysgenics within a family.

    • Replies: @RichardTaylor
    @Some Guy


    Wasn’t this the case in say China too?
     
    Yes, I believe they were polygamous as well.

    Add to that the colder winters.
     
    That's probably true, it's always seemed reasonable the harsh environment led to higher IQ. On the other hand, Eskimos don't seem all that impressive.

    suppose you had a clever wife and a sexy wife, which would end up bearing more of your children? That could mean dysgenics within a family.
     
    Well, beauty and intelligence are correlated. Beauty and sexiness may not be exactly the same but they pretty related. Generally speaking, it seems that all the polygamous societies produced rather ugly, dull-minded people.

    Replies: @Some Guy, @The Cruncher, @Ralph L, @Anonymous, @Anon

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Some Guy


    Also, suppose you had a clever wife and a sexy wife, which would end up bearing more of your children? That could mean dysgenics within a family.
     
    That's basically the story of Mexico's upper caste-- and Alta California's, until Trist ended the trysts there. They all had second, darker families.

    Replies: @jimmyriddle

    , @Jonathan Mason
    @Some Guy

    You would have more children with the clever wife than with the sexy wife, because the clever wife would find a way of disposing of her rival.

  18. @Some Guy
    Very interesting Steve!
    Children who identify as "Native American Only" are actually 15% Amerindian and 71% European, while the more numerous children who identify as "Native American and White" are 7% Amerindian and 90% European.

    A blonde and blue-eyed "indigenous" movement on the way?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @ic1000, @Hernan Pizzaro del Blanco

    The term “Native American Only” might imply that they claim to be 100% American Indian, but I think it means that “Native American” was the only box the parent checked.

    • Thanks: Some Guy
    • Replies: @Chuck
    @Steve Sailer

    Correct.

    , @TWS
    @Steve Sailer

    Most who claim to be FBI are enrolled tribal members. Regardless of blood quantum they consider themselves 100% 'Indian'. Most Indians east of the Mississippi have some white. They don't hold genetics as important as family and community.

  19. @Some Guy
    @RichardTaylor


    For thousands of years, the smartest men had access to the most women, often dozens of wives.
     
    Wasn't this the case in say China too? Add to that the colder winters.

    Polygamy means many average men have to scrape the bottom of the barrel for wives, so perhaps there's an effect in the opposite direction from that.

    Also, suppose you had a clever wife and a sexy wife, which would end up bearing more of your children? That could mean dysgenics within a family.

    Replies: @RichardTaylor, @Reg Cæsar, @Jonathan Mason

    Wasn’t this the case in say China too?

    Yes, I believe they were polygamous as well.

    Add to that the colder winters.

    That’s probably true, it’s always seemed reasonable the harsh environment led to higher IQ. On the other hand, Eskimos don’t seem all that impressive.

    suppose you had a clever wife and a sexy wife, which would end up bearing more of your children? That could mean dysgenics within a family.

    Well, beauty and intelligence are correlated. Beauty and sexiness may not be exactly the same but they pretty related. Generally speaking, it seems that all the polygamous societies produced rather ugly, dull-minded people.

    • Replies: @Some Guy
    @RichardTaylor


    Eskimos don’t seem all that impressive.
     
    Pretty impressive for hunter-gatherers perhaps.

    beauty and intelligence are correlated.
     
    Maybe weakly, but if you have many wives the odds of your most beautiful wife also being the most intelligent is pretty low. Plus if the elite clever families are all inbreeding heavily, the might not look so good even if they're still pretty smart. Illegitimate women or imported slaves may end up being the prettiest even if not the smartest.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @RichardTaylor, @theMann

    , @The Cruncher
    @RichardTaylor

    Ed Dutton says it’s cold, and agriculture.

    , @Ralph L
    @RichardTaylor

    Perhaps they weren't just sister-wives but sisters, like the pharaohs.

    Replies: @RichardTaylor

    , @Anonymous
    @RichardTaylor

    The ancestors of the Aztecs and the Maya all came through Alaska and probably spent thousands of years in Beringia living an Eskimo lifestyle.
    They managed to develop urban civilizations with writing and copper metalwork.
    The Inca develop a very large polity... None of this is really comparable to old world achievements but viewed on its own it's quite impressive when you consider that they had to do the hard work of domesticating plants which would have taken thousands of years and effectively meant that they were playing catch up vis a vis the old world.

    , @Anon
    @RichardTaylor


    Well, beauty and intelligence are correlated.
     
    Men in general, including high IQ men, seem to favor beauty in women over intelligence. And women don't seem to favor intelligence itself directly in men but rather indirectly as a proxy for worldly success. Most women, including high IQ women, seem to prefer lower IQ men with worldly success such as wealthy and famous pro athletes, over less wealthy and famous but higher IQ men, like say math professors.

    These two factors probably serve to weaken the correlation between beauty and intelligence, and there are studies that suggest the correlation breaks down:

    https://twitter.com/robkhenderson/status/1392239448302231553

    Replies: @S. Anonyia

  20. @Some Guy
    @RichardTaylor


    For thousands of years, the smartest men had access to the most women, often dozens of wives.
     
    Wasn't this the case in say China too? Add to that the colder winters.

    Polygamy means many average men have to scrape the bottom of the barrel for wives, so perhaps there's an effect in the opposite direction from that.

    Also, suppose you had a clever wife and a sexy wife, which would end up bearing more of your children? That could mean dysgenics within a family.

    Replies: @RichardTaylor, @Reg Cæsar, @Jonathan Mason

    Also, suppose you had a clever wife and a sexy wife, which would end up bearing more of your children? That could mean dysgenics within a family.

    That’s basically the story of Mexico’s upper caste– and Alta California’s, until Trist ended the trysts there. They all had second, darker families.

    • Replies: @jimmyriddle
    @Reg Cæsar

    Like the Governator.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

  21. I am very suprised this study was funded and published.

    I would expect some ethics panel, or somesuch, to kill it.

  22. Anonymous[304] • Disclaimer says:
    @RichardTaylor
    If the HBD worldview is correct, why isn't the Middle East the apex of civilization? For thousands of years, the smartest men had access to the most women, often dozens of wives.

    It should be the land of the most beautiful and intelligent people on earth.

    Meanwhile, White people, who tended to practice monogamy, actually became what many considered the most beautiful and intelligent. Bear in mind, the ancient White pagans were generally monogamous, while the ancient Jews (who were not that smart) and most other people practiced polygamy big time.

    Replies: @Some Guy, @Anonymous, @AnotherDad, @Kratoklastes, @Daniel Chieh

    Genetic data suggests humans have been moderately polygamous, with whites intermediate between blacks on the high end and Asians on the low end in the degree of polygamy. I imagine Middle Easterners would cluster in between somewhere as well.

    “Modern man found to be generally monogamous, moderately polygamous”

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100302112018.htm

    In a strictly monogamous population, one would expect to have an equal number of breeding females and males and, therefore, a breeding sex ratio of one female to one male. In a population where males tend to have more than one female mate, more females than males contribute to reproduction; for this reason the breeding ratio exceeds one. The authors of this study estimate that the breeding ratio varies between 1.1 and 1.4 according to population: 1.1 in Asia, 1.3 in Europe and 1.4 in Africa.

    Modern man or Homo sapiens would, therefore, usually have been monogamous while exhibiting tendencies toward polygamy over the course of evolutionary history. These findings are consistent with studies in evolutionary psychology and anthropology that depict contemporary human populations.

    • Replies: @RichardTaylor
    @Anonymous

    Thanks. So this is an estimate of the breeding ratio going back in deep history based on what they see now?

    I thought that most males in deep history had died childless while most females had at least one child. Seems like that would make the breeding ratio larger but maybe I'm not understanding it correctly.

    Shouldn't Mongolians be the best people on earth by the way? They say alone Genghis Khan has 16 million descendants. He was an incredibly intelligent, albeit ruthless, leader.

    By the way, now many descendants does Muhammed have?

    Replies: @Anon, @Reg Cæsar

  23. @Reg Cæsar
    @Some Guy


    Also, suppose you had a clever wife and a sexy wife, which would end up bearing more of your children? That could mean dysgenics within a family.
     
    That's basically the story of Mexico's upper caste-- and Alta California's, until Trist ended the trysts there. They all had second, darker families.

    Replies: @jimmyriddle

    Like the Governator.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @jimmyriddle

    Serves him right:

    https://pics.me.me/then-ill-be-back-now-oh-my-back-arnold-schwarzenegger-11541462.png

  24. @RichardTaylor
    @Some Guy


    Wasn’t this the case in say China too?
     
    Yes, I believe they were polygamous as well.

    Add to that the colder winters.
     
    That's probably true, it's always seemed reasonable the harsh environment led to higher IQ. On the other hand, Eskimos don't seem all that impressive.

    suppose you had a clever wife and a sexy wife, which would end up bearing more of your children? That could mean dysgenics within a family.
     
    Well, beauty and intelligence are correlated. Beauty and sexiness may not be exactly the same but they pretty related. Generally speaking, it seems that all the polygamous societies produced rather ugly, dull-minded people.

    Replies: @Some Guy, @The Cruncher, @Ralph L, @Anonymous, @Anon

    Eskimos don’t seem all that impressive.

    Pretty impressive for hunter-gatherers perhaps.

    beauty and intelligence are correlated.

    Maybe weakly, but if you have many wives the odds of your most beautiful wife also being the most intelligent is pretty low. Plus if the elite clever families are all inbreeding heavily, the might not look so good even if they’re still pretty smart. Illegitimate women or imported slaves may end up being the prettiest even if not the smartest.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Some Guy

    Eskimos don’t seem all that impressive.

    I'm impressed. I wouldn't last very long in the Arctic.

    Replies: @kaganovitch, @J

    , @RichardTaylor
    @Some Guy

    Okay, but then we'd be arguing that beauty and intelligence are negatively correlated and I don't think that's true. In fact, I think we know it's not. The most beautiful wife may not be the most intelligent, but she wouldn't likely be the dumbest. I think we'd still expect a rise in intelligence over time.

    However, we should definitely see a rise in beauty over time, shouldn't we? There are certainly beautiful women in the Middle East but generally speaking, the most beautiful are considered Europeans. And to be blunt, a lot of historically polygamous areas have a lot of ugly people.

    How did that happen? I don't know.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    , @theMann
    @Some Guy

    I hate to be both crude and cruel about this, but I imagine the cleverest wife can figure out being the best cocksucker will get her plowed the most often.


    Beautiful vs. sexual fury, not much of a contest.

  25. @Steve Sailer
    @Chuck

    Thanks.

    Are there major differences between the May 21 and the June 17 version?

    Replies: @Chuck, @Some Guy

    Just the tables. Not the regression results.

    • Thanks: ic1000
  26. @Steve Sailer
    @Some Guy

    The term "Native American Only" might imply that they claim to be 100% American Indian, but I think it means that "Native American" was the only box the parent checked.

    Replies: @Chuck, @TWS

    Correct.

  27. @Steve Sailer
    @Chuck

    Thanks.

    Are there major differences between the May 21 and the June 17 version?

    Replies: @Chuck, @Some Guy

    Only for Hispanic-White it seems, -0.19 instead of -0.65.

    • Thanks: ic1000
  28. @Anonymous
    @RichardTaylor

    Genetic data suggests humans have been moderately polygamous, with whites intermediate between blacks on the high end and Asians on the low end in the degree of polygamy. I imagine Middle Easterners would cluster in between somewhere as well.

    "Modern man found to be generally monogamous, moderately polygamous"

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100302112018.htm


    In a strictly monogamous population, one would expect to have an equal number of breeding females and males and, therefore, a breeding sex ratio of one female to one male. In a population where males tend to have more than one female mate, more females than males contribute to reproduction; for this reason the breeding ratio exceeds one. The authors of this study estimate that the breeding ratio varies between 1.1 and 1.4 according to population: 1.1 in Asia, 1.3 in Europe and 1.4 in Africa.

    Modern man or Homo sapiens would, therefore, usually have been monogamous while exhibiting tendencies toward polygamy over the course of evolutionary history. These findings are consistent with studies in evolutionary psychology and anthropology that depict contemporary human populations.
     

    Replies: @RichardTaylor

    Thanks. So this is an estimate of the breeding ratio going back in deep history based on what they see now?

    I thought that most males in deep history had died childless while most females had at least one child. Seems like that would make the breeding ratio larger but maybe I’m not understanding it correctly.

    Shouldn’t Mongolians be the best people on earth by the way? They say alone Genghis Khan has 16 million descendants. He was an incredibly intelligent, albeit ruthless, leader.

    By the way, now many descendants does Muhammed have?

    • Replies: @Anon
    @RichardTaylor


    Shouldn’t Mongolians be the best people on earth by the way? They say alone Genghis Khan has 16 million descendants. He was an incredibly intelligent, albeit ruthless, leader.

    By the way, now many descendants does Muhammed have?
     
    The Mongols were a very small military and ruling class that conquered and ruled much larger populations for a short while.

    Muhammad founded a universalist religion that spread via conquest and conversion.
    , @Reg Cæsar
    @RichardTaylor


    By the way, now many descendants does Muhammed have?
     
    You are very likely one of them.


    https://youtu.be/QXEC8p7ZCBo
  29. Anon[350] • Disclaimer says:

    I think the Emil Kirkegaard clan did something on admixture, probably less rigorous than this, that showed a linear relationship between IQ and racial percentage. This seems what you’d expect.

    But I remember Steve implying that there is more of a exponential convex curve relationship between Australian indigenous and … facial attractiveness: a half aborigine looks a quarter, a quarter looks an eighth, etc.

    I wonder if this is true. In other words, I wonder if any admixture result other than linear is even possible. If so, that raises a lot of interesting questions, and identifying the traits that are either flighty or sticky would be a valuable research avenue. It sounds vaguely eugenic however, and would never get funded. Can we breed away obesity? Left-handedness? Male homosexuality?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Anon

    A scientist back in the 1990s proposed that the genes for African looks tend to be dominant, for Australian Aborigine looks recessive.

    I have never heard anything more on that idea since.

    , @res
    @Anon

    This tag might be helpful.
    https://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/tag/admixture/

    I think this is the paper you mean. It is the 2019 study Steve mentioned at the start of his post.
    https://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/2019/09/new-paper-out-global-ancestry-and-cognitive-ability/

    Note the scatterplots which Steve mentioned. I wonder if Emil (or someone else, Chuck?) would be willing to go back to the 2019 data and derive something similar to the nonlinear gradients line in Figure 3 in the current paper? I see a hint of the departure from the regression line near 100% African in the 2019 Figure 3 scatterplot (in particular, look at the distribution of the points on the 0% line, hard to see elsewhere with the overplotting), but a rigorous look would be much better.

    It would also be interesting to see binned (say 5% groups?) distribution plots. It is hard to see what is going on over 90% European with all of the overplotting on the scatterplot.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  30. I have not read the paper but impressions from your note:

    1. I bet the authors are using deliberately technical and confusing language as a protective mechanism.

    2. Giving a full bore neuropsychological battery of tests to thousands of children is screamingly expensive. Each battery can take 3/4 of a work day and the test givers (even if not neuropsychologists themselves) are highly trained. The testing environment must be controlled (no distractions, correctly timed). Remember: neuropsychology is applied psychometrics and these tests are the gold standard. Much more in depth than an IQ test.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Hodag

    Thanks.

    , @ic1000
    @Hodag

    > I bet the authors are using deliberately technical and confusing language as a protective mechanism.

    Agree.

    A search of the article's full text with the string "IQ" returned five hits -- each for the word "techniques."

    It's a smart strategy for these enstupidated times. For the Saini/Rutherford science-denialist crowd to attack the authors for this work, they would first have to explain it. Per Upton Sinclair, midwit Establishment figures like Lester Holt and Soledad O'Brien aren't going to be enthused about applying their brains to that task.

    The twitter-pitchfork mob will be tempted to move to an easier target.

    , @res
    @Hodag


    1. I bet the authors are using deliberately technical and confusing language as a protective mechanism.
     
    I agree with this as well. If you look at the paper you see it is more focused on the methodology. This is also clear from the abstract (which Steve quoted at the start of his piece). The preprint format which places the Tables and Figures after the references also contributes to this perception.

    Thanks for 2. They used an existing database. This paper has more on the ABCD neurocognition test battery that was used.
    Adolescent neurocognitive development and impacts of substance use: Overview of the adolescent brain cognitive development (ABCD) baseline neurocognition battery
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6039970/

    P.S. Regarding the environment comment above, their methodology is designed to address this. BTW, authors note bolded typo.

    Many behavioural traits covary strongly with racial/ethnic self-identities, but it is often ambigous whether this covariance reflects environmental causes associated with racial/ethnic identity groups or re‡ects underlying genetic similarity among group members arising from shared geographic ancestry. Admixture regression relies on the natural experiment of recent genetic admixture of previously geographically-isolated ancestral groups to measure the explanatory power arising from racial/ethnic group identities and that arising from ancestry-based similarities of genetic background.
     
  31. @RichardTaylor
    @Some Guy


    Wasn’t this the case in say China too?
     
    Yes, I believe they were polygamous as well.

    Add to that the colder winters.
     
    That's probably true, it's always seemed reasonable the harsh environment led to higher IQ. On the other hand, Eskimos don't seem all that impressive.

    suppose you had a clever wife and a sexy wife, which would end up bearing more of your children? That could mean dysgenics within a family.
     
    Well, beauty and intelligence are correlated. Beauty and sexiness may not be exactly the same but they pretty related. Generally speaking, it seems that all the polygamous societies produced rather ugly, dull-minded people.

    Replies: @Some Guy, @The Cruncher, @Ralph L, @Anonymous, @Anon

    Ed Dutton says it’s cold, and agriculture.

  32. The low correlation with 100% African ancestry is interesting. Suspect it’s due to immigration selection but maybe it’s not?

  33. @Anon
    I think the Emil Kirkegaard clan did something on admixture, probably less rigorous than this, that showed a linear relationship between IQ and racial percentage. This seems what you'd expect.

    But I remember Steve implying that there is more of a exponential convex curve relationship between Australian indigenous and ... facial attractiveness: a half aborigine looks a quarter, a quarter looks an eighth, etc.

    I wonder if this is true. In other words, I wonder if any admixture result other than linear is even possible. If so, that raises a lot of interesting questions, and identifying the traits that are either flighty or sticky would be a valuable research avenue. It sounds vaguely eugenic however, and would never get funded. Can we breed away obesity? Left-handedness? Male homosexuality?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @res

    A scientist back in the 1990s proposed that the genes for African looks tend to be dominant, for Australian Aborigine looks recessive.

    I have never heard anything more on that idea since.

  34. @Some Guy
    @RichardTaylor


    Eskimos don’t seem all that impressive.
     
    Pretty impressive for hunter-gatherers perhaps.

    beauty and intelligence are correlated.
     
    Maybe weakly, but if you have many wives the odds of your most beautiful wife also being the most intelligent is pretty low. Plus if the elite clever families are all inbreeding heavily, the might not look so good even if they're still pretty smart. Illegitimate women or imported slaves may end up being the prettiest even if not the smartest.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @RichardTaylor, @theMann

    Eskimos don’t seem all that impressive.

    I’m impressed. I wouldn’t last very long in the Arctic.

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    @Steve Sailer

    Well, the Arctic selects against long and thin and for short and stout.

    , @J
    @Steve Sailer

    I stay unimpressed. Finns, Russians, Americans, etc. had no special problems in appropriating and colonizing the Arctic. Especially where there was gold or whales for oil.

  35. @Some Guy
    @RichardTaylor


    Eskimos don’t seem all that impressive.
     
    Pretty impressive for hunter-gatherers perhaps.

    beauty and intelligence are correlated.
     
    Maybe weakly, but if you have many wives the odds of your most beautiful wife also being the most intelligent is pretty low. Plus if the elite clever families are all inbreeding heavily, the might not look so good even if they're still pretty smart. Illegitimate women or imported slaves may end up being the prettiest even if not the smartest.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @RichardTaylor, @theMann

    Okay, but then we’d be arguing that beauty and intelligence are negatively correlated and I don’t think that’s true. In fact, I think we know it’s not. The most beautiful wife may not be the most intelligent, but she wouldn’t likely be the dumbest. I think we’d still expect a rise in intelligence over time.

    However, we should definitely see a rise in beauty over time, shouldn’t we? There are certainly beautiful women in the Middle East but generally speaking, the most beautiful are considered Europeans. And to be blunt, a lot of historically polygamous areas have a lot of ugly people.

    How did that happen? I don’t know.

    • Agree: Some Guy
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @RichardTaylor


    However, we should definitely see a rise in beauty over time, shouldn’t we? There are certainly beautiful women in the Middle East but generally speaking, the most beautiful are considered Europeans. And to be blunt, a lot of historically polygamous areas have a lot of ugly people.
     
    The most beautiful women are considered East Asian and East-Eurasian mixes, not European women. White women have a masculine look.


    https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1068/p5191

    In experiment 1, Caucasian participants rated own-race composites as more attractive than other-race composites, but only for male faces. However, mixed-race (Caucasian/Japanese) composites were significantly more attractive than own-race composites, particularly for the opposite sex
     
    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13506285.2018.1475437

    Marriages between White men and Asian women are over twice as frequent as those between White women and Asian men. Recent research has proposed that this imbalance may be explained by the finding that, on average, White men are perceived as more attractive than Asian men, and Asian women are perceived as more attractive than White women, possibly because Asian faces are perceived as more feminine than White faces.

    Here, we explore whether Asian faces are perceived as more feminine than White faces. Thirty-five Malaysian Chinese (20 male) and 30 Australian White (12 male) participants manipulated 100 face photographs (50 Asian; 50 White; half male) on a masculinity/femininity axis to optimize attractive appearance.

    As predicted, White women’s faces were increased more in femininity than Asian women’s faces, and White men’s faces were feminized more than Asian men’s faces to optimize attractiveness. These findings suggest that White faces are perceived as more masculine than Asian faces.
     
    https://www.economist.com/img/b/1280/672/90/sites/default/files/images/print-edition/20180818_FBC544.png


    https://kjonnsforskning.no/en/2015/09/blond-sexy-and-immigrant

    According to Lundström there is much focus on whiteness in Singapore. Ads for skin whitening products are common, and whiteness is the ideal. But the ideal of beauty is not a white, blond western woman.

    “Western women were ranked below the Chinese in the racial hierarchy. The western whiteness is not as posh as the Singaporean, Chinese whiteness,” says Lundström.

    “The Swedish women in Singapore were almost desexualised. They felt less feminine,” says Lundström.
     

    Replies: @RichardTaylor, @James Speaks

  36. @obwandiyag
    How do they control for environment?

    I'll tell ya how. They don't.

    Replies: @ThreeCranes, @ic1000, @AnotherDad

    It’s generally accepted that adults create the environment (consciously or not) in which they believe their children stand the best chance of succeeding. Even trees do this by altering the chemical makeup of the surrounding soil so as to favor the growth of their own seedlings.

    The environment created by black people in America is the product of a deep instinctual wisdom which guides black parents in an effort to promote the likelihood of their children’s success. Drug dealing, gang membership, flouting weapons and flashing cash on social media and the like are behaviors which will best advance a black child in the black community. Spending promiscuously on rims, hair weaves etc. may not “make sense” to a white person (who needs to display other qualities to advance in their own culture) but it is what “works” in a community of black people. Likewise, promiscuity, having children out of wedlock etc. are behaviors that offer the best hope for a black child’s survival to adulthood.

    It sounds as though you have hopped on the bandwagon and are looking at and judging black people through the lens of a white person’s eyes.

    The upshot of the data is fairly straightforward. The quickest way to get blacks to adopt white values and performance is to cross breed them with whites. Our Zionist leaders know this–though they won’t say so publicly–which is why they promote miscegenation. Miscegenation is a two-fer for them. It both elevates blacks and depresses their direct competition, i.e. white Euros.

    • Disagree: ic1000
    • Replies: @ThreeCranes
    @ThreeCranes

    The "deep wisdom" of the tree which alters the soil around it so as to enhance the likelihood of the survival of its offspring finds its counterpart in the black women who today loudly clamor for change in the structure of American politics and social life. Tearing down monuments and decrying white privilege is simply altering the soil in which her offspring will grow up, giving them a better chance of survival. The black mother would as soon see the complete destruction of white civilization for this would guarantee that her brood would stand a more than even chance in the battle of life against what she perceives as weaker (because less technically proficient) racial opponents.

    All of this happens unconsciously. It is instinctual.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    , @Jonathan Mason
    @ThreeCranes


    Likewise, promiscuity, having children out of wedlock etc. are behaviors that offer the best hope for a black child’s survival to adulthood.
     
    It struck me when I first went to Bermuda in 1980 and worked with a woman who had four children by four different fathers that there was a kind of genetic strategy in play here, by which having children by four different fathers gave her the greatest chance of having one really good one who would support her later in life.

    This was just a few years after Dawkins published The Selfish Gene, so I guess these kind of ideas were just starting to be talked about or thought about at that time when I was in my late twenties.

    So, yes, sexual promiscuity could be a viable survival strategy, at least for the genes, if not the individual.

    I once pointed out in the public health paper that I wrote that the African-American women in a certain county in Florida who started having children younger and had more children would end up with having more descendants in future generations.

    This was not the kind of thinking that the public health experts in Florida wanted to hear.

    Replies: @anon, @ThreeCranes, @ThreeCranes

  37. From the abstract: “behavioural genetics”, “an orthogonalization procedure”.
    Why the differing British and American spellings?

  38. Rob says:

    NH White only, NH Black only… wtf? Not everyone lives in freaking New Hampshire.

    Kinda loling that American NA Only are whiter (and less native) than Hispanic whites.t

    Interesting that the intelligence by %back has a regression line that only goes down to -1 (presumably σ) at pure African. Maybe if whites all dedicated ourselves to making a fantabulous environment for blacks, we could get US blacks to like 93 and pure Africans to 85? Shame we’re running out of whites. Maybe the Asians will take over for us? It would be a shame if whites disappearing hurt blacks.

    The kids of pure Africans are at -0.5 σ, so they must be regressing hard to a low mean, because the Africans here have impressive-looking resumes.

    Asians have a full half σ on us.

    Is there more to the psych measurement than IQ?

    Oh, wait. All my numbers are wrong because I took 0.0 as the white mean. White mean is +0.25. So regression-line Africans are -1.25 σ, and real ones are -0.75 σ or so.

    F it, not doing more math! Take this comment as is!

  39. @obwandiyag
    How do they control for environment?

    I'll tell ya how. They don't.

    Replies: @ThreeCranes, @ic1000, @AnotherDad

    > How do they control for environment? I’ll tell ya how. They don’t.

    I’ll give ya a constructive suggestion. If ya have to say dumb things, don’t press “Publish Comment” until other people have contributed to the thread.

    Some of yaor comments are pretty good, so ya could up yaor game (like “Jonathan Mason” and a few other regulars). That would be even better.

  40. @ThreeCranes
    @obwandiyag

    It's generally accepted that adults create the environment (consciously or not) in which they believe their children stand the best chance of succeeding. Even trees do this by altering the chemical makeup of the surrounding soil so as to favor the growth of their own seedlings.

    The environment created by black people in America is the product of a deep instinctual wisdom which guides black parents in an effort to promote the likelihood of their children's success. Drug dealing, gang membership, flouting weapons and flashing cash on social media and the like are behaviors which will best advance a black child in the black community. Spending promiscuously on rims, hair weaves etc. may not "make sense" to a white person (who needs to display other qualities to advance in their own culture) but it is what "works" in a community of black people. Likewise, promiscuity, having children out of wedlock etc. are behaviors that offer the best hope for a black child's survival to adulthood.

    It sounds as though you have hopped on the bandwagon and are looking at and judging black people through the lens of a white person's eyes.

    The upshot of the data is fairly straightforward. The quickest way to get blacks to adopt white values and performance is to cross breed them with whites. Our Zionist leaders know this--though they won't say so publicly--which is why they promote miscegenation. Miscegenation is a two-fer for them. It both elevates blacks and depresses their direct competition, i.e. white Euros.

    Replies: @ThreeCranes, @Jonathan Mason

    The “deep wisdom” of the tree which alters the soil around it so as to enhance the likelihood of the survival of its offspring finds its counterpart in the black women who today loudly clamor for change in the structure of American politics and social life. Tearing down monuments and decrying white privilege is simply altering the soil in which her offspring will grow up, giving them a better chance of survival. The black mother would as soon see the complete destruction of white civilization for this would guarantee that her brood would stand a more than even chance in the battle of life against what she perceives as weaker (because less technically proficient) racial opponents.

    All of this happens unconsciously. It is instinctual.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @ThreeCranes

    It's not just black mothers that do this, but white mothers of mixed children. They become advocates of every cause that will reduce the numbers and influence of white people. They want to change society so that their children will not be outnumbered and disadvantaged.

  41. @Hodag
    I have not read the paper but impressions from your note:

    1. I bet the authors are using deliberately technical and confusing language as a protective mechanism.

    2. Giving a full bore neuropsychological battery of tests to thousands of children is screamingly expensive. Each battery can take 3/4 of a work day and the test givers (even if not neuropsychologists themselves) are highly trained. The testing environment must be controlled (no distractions, correctly timed). Remember: neuropsychology is applied psychometrics and these tests are the gold standard. Much more in depth than an IQ test.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @ic1000, @res

    Thanks.

  42. @Some Guy
    Very interesting Steve!
    Children who identify as "Native American Only" are actually 15% Amerindian and 71% European, while the more numerous children who identify as "Native American and White" are 7% Amerindian and 90% European.

    A blonde and blue-eyed "indigenous" movement on the way?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @ic1000, @Hernan Pizzaro del Blanco

    > Children who identify as “Native American Only” are actually 15% Amerindian and 71% European

    My impression is that there are very few U.S. Native Americans whose ancestry is mostly Native American. There has been a great deal of introgression from Europeans, a lesser but significant amount from Africans.

    This is consistent with Charles Mann’s idea (“1492”) that Eurasian diseases (particularly influenza) caused an east-to-west wave of population crashes among North American populations. European/American hybrids likely fared better than purebred Americans.

    On the other hand, there are sizable numbers of Canadian, Mexican, and Central American indigenous people whose % of “Native American” DNA is quite high.

    • Replies: @anon
    @ic1000

    My impression is that there are very few U.S. Native Americans whose ancestry is mostly Native American. There has been a great deal of introgression from Europeans, a lesser but significant amount from Africans.

    That varies pretty widely with geography. The Southeastern tribes had white introgression in the late 18th century, as did the Northeastern ones. Sam Houston aka "Big Drunk" spent time among the nations before getting his act together and heading for Texas; he was hardly the only white man to do so. The Seminoles of Florida were an amalgam of smaller tribes, runaway slaves, runaway whites, etc. in the 1820's. I have known people from the Oklahoma Nations with legit tribal roll numbers who looked more like a southern Italian than any random wagon-burner.

    But further out west how much introgression is there among the Navaho or the Lakota Sioux? Not as much as among the smaller tribes of northern California and parts of Oregon.

    On the other hand, there are sizable numbers of Canadian, Mexican, and Central American indigenous people whose % of “Native American” DNA is quite high.

    The more remote groups such as the Tarahumara of Mexico are bound to have some Conquistador genes, but not very many.

    , @Bardon Kaldian
    @ic1000

    It actually means that way too many Injuns are white fakers; essentially what McInnes had said at 5:42:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVT3oe9sXjY

    , @Travis
    @ic1000

    My impression is that not a single American Indian today is genetically over 50% Native American unless they have recent ancestors from Mexico.

  43. Rob says:

    One more thought. Check out NH White and Asian! Tiny, surely insignificant 0.01 bump on neuro over pure Asians, but no loss from being largely white. Is that Jewasian couples shining through?

    Inteesting that they got almost 2.5 times as many happas as pure Asians. I know they excluded kids whose parents were so unassimilated that they didn’t speak English (or Spanish! Nuestro otro idioma. ¡Gracias, presidente Reagan! but are there really that few Asian chicks marrying Asian guys? What do the guys do? MOB from the homeland?

  44. Anonymous[251] • Disclaimer says:
    @RichardTaylor
    @Some Guy

    Okay, but then we'd be arguing that beauty and intelligence are negatively correlated and I don't think that's true. In fact, I think we know it's not. The most beautiful wife may not be the most intelligent, but she wouldn't likely be the dumbest. I think we'd still expect a rise in intelligence over time.

    However, we should definitely see a rise in beauty over time, shouldn't we? There are certainly beautiful women in the Middle East but generally speaking, the most beautiful are considered Europeans. And to be blunt, a lot of historically polygamous areas have a lot of ugly people.

    How did that happen? I don't know.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    However, we should definitely see a rise in beauty over time, shouldn’t we? There are certainly beautiful women in the Middle East but generally speaking, the most beautiful are considered Europeans. And to be blunt, a lot of historically polygamous areas have a lot of ugly people.

    The most beautiful women are considered East Asian and East-Eurasian mixes, not European women. White women have a masculine look.

    https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1068/p5191

    In experiment 1, Caucasian participants rated own-race composites as more attractive than other-race composites, but only for male faces. However, mixed-race (Caucasian/Japanese) composites were significantly more attractive than own-race composites, particularly for the opposite sex

    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13506285.2018.1475437

    Marriages between White men and Asian women are over twice as frequent as those between White women and Asian men. Recent research has proposed that this imbalance may be explained by the finding that, on average, White men are perceived as more attractive than Asian men, and Asian women are perceived as more attractive than White women, possibly because Asian faces are perceived as more feminine than White faces.

    Here, we explore whether Asian faces are perceived as more feminine than White faces. Thirty-five Malaysian Chinese (20 male) and 30 Australian White (12 male) participants manipulated 100 face photographs (50 Asian; 50 White; half male) on a masculinity/femininity axis to optimize attractive appearance.

    As predicted, White women’s faces were increased more in femininity than Asian women’s faces, and White men’s faces were feminized more than Asian men’s faces to optimize attractiveness. These findings suggest that White faces are perceived as more masculine than Asian faces.

    https://kjonnsforskning.no/en/2015/09/blond-sexy-and-immigrant

    According to Lundström there is much focus on whiteness in Singapore. Ads for skin whitening products are common, and whiteness is the ideal. But the ideal of beauty is not a white, blond western woman.

    “Western women were ranked below the Chinese in the racial hierarchy. The western whiteness is not as posh as the Singaporean, Chinese whiteness,” says Lundström.

    “The Swedish women in Singapore were almost desexualised. They felt less feminine,” says Lundström.

    • Replies: @RichardTaylor
    @Anonymous

    Well that's an interesting study. But the desirability of blonde women seems awfully widespread in real life. If you look online for anything related to pretty women, White women tower above all others, followed by the Japanese.

    But either way, we still have the problem that the most polygamous areas throughout history did not produce the most attractive women.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @e

    , @James Speaks
    @Anonymous


    The most beautiful women are considered East Asian and East-Eurasian mixes, not European women. White women have a masculine look.
     
    I disagree. Marina looks perfect to me. It's probably that Celt (actual Welsh Celt) / Greek mixture.

    https://celebvogue.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Marina-and-the-Diamonds-1024x768.jpg

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Highlander

  45. @Hodag
    I have not read the paper but impressions from your note:

    1. I bet the authors are using deliberately technical and confusing language as a protective mechanism.

    2. Giving a full bore neuropsychological battery of tests to thousands of children is screamingly expensive. Each battery can take 3/4 of a work day and the test givers (even if not neuropsychologists themselves) are highly trained. The testing environment must be controlled (no distractions, correctly timed). Remember: neuropsychology is applied psychometrics and these tests are the gold standard. Much more in depth than an IQ test.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @ic1000, @res

    > I bet the authors are using deliberately technical and confusing language as a protective mechanism.

    Agree.

    A search of the article’s full text with the string “IQ” returned five hits — each for the word “techniques.”

    It’s a smart strategy for these enstupidated times. For the Saini/Rutherford science-denialist crowd to attack the authors for this work, they would first have to explain it. Per Upton Sinclair, midwit Establishment figures like Lester Holt and Soledad O’Brien aren’t going to be enthused about applying their brains to that task.

    The twitter-pitchfork mob will be tempted to move to an easier target.

  46. Rob says:

    It might be interesting to do a ratio of cognitive to SES means in σ to capture how much unearned privilege/punching above their weight or unrecognized genius/slacker they are.

    Neuro/SES 1 White man holdin’ you down!
    Need to include whether either mean is negative.

    Oh how I wish IQ were normed to 0 with σ = 1. Then no one would confuse it with an absolute scale. ‘115 is 15% smarter than 100!’ Also, IQ below zero just sounds dumber.

    • Replies: @Rob
    @Rob

    Huh got rid of my greater and less than signs because html. Neuro/SES greater than one. I know brains and SES do not move in lockstep, but averaging hundreds of people together to get differences in σ for both traits, one would expect the noise in both measures to average out.

  47. @RichardTaylor
    @Some Guy


    Wasn’t this the case in say China too?
     
    Yes, I believe they were polygamous as well.

    Add to that the colder winters.
     
    That's probably true, it's always seemed reasonable the harsh environment led to higher IQ. On the other hand, Eskimos don't seem all that impressive.

    suppose you had a clever wife and a sexy wife, which would end up bearing more of your children? That could mean dysgenics within a family.
     
    Well, beauty and intelligence are correlated. Beauty and sexiness may not be exactly the same but they pretty related. Generally speaking, it seems that all the polygamous societies produced rather ugly, dull-minded people.

    Replies: @Some Guy, @The Cruncher, @Ralph L, @Anonymous, @Anon

    Perhaps they weren’t just sister-wives but sisters, like the pharaohs.

    • Replies: @RichardTaylor
    @Ralph L

    You'd think that incestuous breeding would burn itself out pretty fast, I don't know. But yeah, there's the whole first cousin marriage thing too.

    My impression is that no group of men are as in awe of female beauty as White men. We have the story of Helen of Troy and then the whole chivalry culture of the Middle Ages. And today, it's really only in White Western countries that women can command such respect.

    I'm just suspecting that Aryan aesthetic/artistic drives had something to do with it.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/Pygmalion_%28Raoux%29.jpg

  48. Are the Vietnamese-Americans put in South Asian or East Asian?

  49. anonymous[272] • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean

    This shows that American children have three peaks for African ancestry. Reading from right to left, a number are around 83% black (presumably, regular African-Americans with no white parents or grandparents), around 42% black (presumably, one regular African-American parent and one non-black parent)
     
    Usually, white mother. That is important for cognitive ability. Several point advantage over black mother according to the Minnesota adoption study data.

    Also, a more general point is that a father passes his X chromosome down unshuffled to a daughter, so the brainy people can know their IQ is from mom's dad.

    Replies: @anonymous

    Usually, white mother. That is important for cognitive ability. Several point advantage over black mother according to the Minnesota adoption study data.

    Does society have a duty to inform White women of the risk that mating with Blacks could cause their offspring’s cognitive ability to decline?

    • Replies: @PaceLaw
    @anonymous

    As if these white woman would care. Many of these women are just in the moment and/or hooking up and not thinking about future generations of offspring down the line.

  50. @Anonymous
    @RichardTaylor


    However, we should definitely see a rise in beauty over time, shouldn’t we? There are certainly beautiful women in the Middle East but generally speaking, the most beautiful are considered Europeans. And to be blunt, a lot of historically polygamous areas have a lot of ugly people.
     
    The most beautiful women are considered East Asian and East-Eurasian mixes, not European women. White women have a masculine look.


    https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1068/p5191

    In experiment 1, Caucasian participants rated own-race composites as more attractive than other-race composites, but only for male faces. However, mixed-race (Caucasian/Japanese) composites were significantly more attractive than own-race composites, particularly for the opposite sex
     
    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13506285.2018.1475437

    Marriages between White men and Asian women are over twice as frequent as those between White women and Asian men. Recent research has proposed that this imbalance may be explained by the finding that, on average, White men are perceived as more attractive than Asian men, and Asian women are perceived as more attractive than White women, possibly because Asian faces are perceived as more feminine than White faces.

    Here, we explore whether Asian faces are perceived as more feminine than White faces. Thirty-five Malaysian Chinese (20 male) and 30 Australian White (12 male) participants manipulated 100 face photographs (50 Asian; 50 White; half male) on a masculinity/femininity axis to optimize attractive appearance.

    As predicted, White women’s faces were increased more in femininity than Asian women’s faces, and White men’s faces were feminized more than Asian men’s faces to optimize attractiveness. These findings suggest that White faces are perceived as more masculine than Asian faces.
     
    https://www.economist.com/img/b/1280/672/90/sites/default/files/images/print-edition/20180818_FBC544.png


    https://kjonnsforskning.no/en/2015/09/blond-sexy-and-immigrant

    According to Lundström there is much focus on whiteness in Singapore. Ads for skin whitening products are common, and whiteness is the ideal. But the ideal of beauty is not a white, blond western woman.

    “Western women were ranked below the Chinese in the racial hierarchy. The western whiteness is not as posh as the Singaporean, Chinese whiteness,” says Lundström.

    “The Swedish women in Singapore were almost desexualised. They felt less feminine,” says Lundström.
     

    Replies: @RichardTaylor, @James Speaks

    Well that’s an interesting study. But the desirability of blonde women seems awfully widespread in real life. If you look online for anything related to pretty women, White women tower above all others, followed by the Japanese.

    But either way, we still have the problem that the most polygamous areas throughout history did not produce the most attractive women.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @RichardTaylor


    Well that’s an interesting study. But the desirability of blonde women seems awfully widespread in real life. If you look online for anything related to pretty women, White women tower above all others, followed by the Japanese.
     
    Source? Most studies I've seen have ranked white women as underrepresented in jut about everything.
    , @e
    @RichardTaylor

    Could be the "selection" of Asian women is not because the physical traits are more desirous than those of the blond but because the Asian woman suggests subservience, passivity, traits in women valued by high % of males.

  51. There is a very interesting and potentially significant result here that is new to me and likely most readers. Most here are aware of racial differences in cognitive scores as well as the fact that kids inherit their cognitive ability from their parents. But the cognitive scores for admixture seem to show something interesting that I hadn’t seen before.

    If one averages the black and white average cognitive score, one gets -0.26 (.26 standard deviations below the mean). But the actual average score for mixed black and white children is -0.13 (.13 standard deviations below the mean).

    If one averages the white and East Asian average cognitive score, one gets 0.41 (.41 standard deviations above the mean). But the actual average score for mixed white and East Asian children is 0.58 (.58 standard deviations above the mean).

    If one averages the white and South Asian average cognitive score, one gets 0.35. But the actual average score for mixed white and South Asian children is 0.84.

    If one averages the white and Native American average cognitive score, one gets -0.085. But the actual average score for mixed white and Native American children is 0.01.

    Is this a heterosis (hybrid vigor) effect?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosis

    • Thanks: ic1000
    • Replies: @Some Guy
    @DanHessinMD

    Could also be that black people need to be above-average to bag themselves a white(how often does a ghetto black even meet a white person?), white men need to be above average to bag themselves an East Asian woman(are East Asian women really going to bring a white unskilled labourer home to mom and dad?), and we know East Asian men have a tough time getting white women, so they probably have to compensate by extra high socioeconomic status to be successful etc.

    With South Asian-White couples I agree because of South Asian's high endogamy.

    , @Steve Sailer
    @DanHessinMD

    Thanks.

    Or maybe it's a culture effect? Or a selection effect?

    , @Some Guy
    @DanHessinMD


    If one averages the white and Native American average cognitive score, one gets -0.085. But the actual average score for mixed white and Native American children is 0.01.
     
    Also, since "White and Native" are 90% European, while "Native only" are 70% European, the hybrid vigor should be in favor of "Native only".
    , @Ralph L
    @DanHessinMD

    Or it could be that most of the whites mixing with other races are above average.

    , @Ryan Andrews
    @DanHessinMD

    The thing that throws a wrench in the hybrid vigor hypothesis is the most numerous mixed race group is Hispanics, who appear to underperform their ancestral profile, at least in intellectually. Hard to say for sure what study suggests there because the Amerindian levels are so low with everyone that it is hard to get a good reading on where they stack-up here. Though, it may not show up intellectually, the fact that Hispanics live longer than Whites, despite being fatter and poorer, might be related to some kind of hybrid vigor.

    Offhand, I would say the only result here that hints at hybrid vigor is the White-Black result. Setting the White score at 100, then based on the weighting of admixtures alone, the Black-White mixed score should be only 92, but is instead 95. And even if the Blacks in these relationships are somewhat above average, I think it is pretty safe to say that the Whites in them tend to be below average.*

    The White-Asian finding points away from any hybrid vigor. It is safe to assume that the Whites in these relationships tend to have IQs above the Asian average of 105 or so. And the Asians are probably above their average too. Perhaps the kids scores are dragged down by their parents likely pushing forty at the time they were conceived, but I think that is broadly true of Asian alone children as well. Mulatto kids on the other hand, are probably born at a more appropriate parental age.

    The "White-Amerindian" kids are 90% White. These are just White kids who are a bit duller than their peers. When I was growing up, the White kids who claimed to be part Cherokee or whatever tended to be downscale, Hillbilly types.

    I can't speak to the White-S. asian result, but then again, it's forty kids. Maybe some mixes work better than others, maybe it's a selected group, maybe the S. Asian alone score is dragged down by Muslims, and the S. Asians who mix with Whites skews more heavily Indian, though that is hard to square with S. Asian alone being wealthier than S.Asian-White. How do Indian-Black mixes in Trinidad and Togo fare vs. the local Blacks and Indians?

    *I recall maybe 7-8 years ago something like Pew or Brookings did a study of intermarriage by race and education. For Whites it balanced out overall (Whites in White-White marriages were equally likely to have a degree to Whites in White-non-White marriages), but for everyone else the mixers were more likely to have a degree. Whites in White-Asian marriages were more highly educated than the White average, Whites in White-Black marriages were less educated. Of course, a lot more White-Black reproducing is done outside of marriage than White-Asian. Which further supports my point that the White-Black score is the only one that might suggest hybrid vigor. I believe the study was of marriages between 2008-2011, so more or less the parents of these kids.

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms, @res

  52. @Ralph L
    @RichardTaylor

    Perhaps they weren't just sister-wives but sisters, like the pharaohs.

    Replies: @RichardTaylor

    You’d think that incestuous breeding would burn itself out pretty fast, I don’t know. But yeah, there’s the whole first cousin marriage thing too.

    My impression is that no group of men are as in awe of female beauty as White men. We have the story of Helen of Troy and then the whole chivalry culture of the Middle Ages. And today, it’s really only in White Western countries that women can command such respect.

    I’m just suspecting that Aryan aesthetic/artistic drives had something to do with it.

  53. @Some Guy
    @RichardTaylor


    Eskimos don’t seem all that impressive.
     
    Pretty impressive for hunter-gatherers perhaps.

    beauty and intelligence are correlated.
     
    Maybe weakly, but if you have many wives the odds of your most beautiful wife also being the most intelligent is pretty low. Plus if the elite clever families are all inbreeding heavily, the might not look so good even if they're still pretty smart. Illegitimate women or imported slaves may end up being the prettiest even if not the smartest.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @RichardTaylor, @theMann

    I hate to be both crude and cruel about this, but I imagine the cleverest wife can figure out being the best cocksucker will get her plowed the most often.

    Beautiful vs. sexual fury, not much of a contest.

  54. @Some Guy
    Very interesting Steve!
    Children who identify as "Native American Only" are actually 15% Amerindian and 71% European, while the more numerous children who identify as "Native American and White" are 7% Amerindian and 90% European.

    A blonde and blue-eyed "indigenous" movement on the way?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @ic1000, @Hernan Pizzaro del Blanco

    The typical tribal member on American reservations has mostly Caucasian DNA. They have yet to find an American Indian who is less than 25% European. The average Cherokee tribe member is genetically 96% European. This is a big reason why Indian tribes oppose DNA studies. Tribal leaders are genetically more white than the average tribal member. Thus they strongly oppose DNA testing and are quite critical of DNA studies.

    The average white American in this study has more Indian DNA than Elizabeth Warren , the majority of white Americans can self-identify as Native American.

    • Replies: @anon
    @Hernan Pizzaro del Blanco

    The typical tribal member on American reservations has mostly Caucasian DNA. They have yet to find an American Indian who is less than 25% European.

    Who is "they", and did "they" spend any time with Tohono O' Odham people?

    The average Cherokee tribe member is genetically 96% European.

    They are not even close to the only nation in the lower 48.

  55. I don’t care too much about cognitive abilities, so, just about racial genetics, confirming what I’ve already said- whites would screw everything that moves, including a rattlesnake if one would hold her head.

    Everybody has whites’ genes, and Native Americans are, genetically, more white than white Hispanics.
    Injuns are genetically whites with tomahawks.

    If whites continue with such a dissolute sex/family life, the US will be divided into two groups: blacks & mulattoes and whites/almost whites.

    Whatta joke ….

  56. @Steve Sailer
    @Some Guy

    Eskimos don’t seem all that impressive.

    I'm impressed. I wouldn't last very long in the Arctic.

    Replies: @kaganovitch, @J

    Well, the Arctic selects against long and thin and for short and stout.

  57. ” East Asian (“Chinese,” “Filipino,” “Japanese,” “Korean,” and “Vietnamese”, “Other Asian,”), “

    Another flawed study which groups Southeast Asians with East Asians as if they are the same. It isnt like East Asians are the largest racial or ethnic group in the world with a population of close to 2 Billion people with a distinct history and Southeast Asians have significant austronesian / melanesian ancestries with their own distinct histories. It is the equivalent of doing a report on Europeans and including North Africans, Arabs and Northern Indians in the study because all of these subgroups are Caucasians. Of course this is an American study who thinks the 2 people in the below picture are classified as the same :

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Jimbo Tate

    But a not insignificant share of Southeast Asians in the United States are Overseas Chinese by ancestry. For example, Amy Chua's parents are from the Philippines but their family tree goes back to very bright Fujian on the Chinese mainland.

    A big fraction of the Boat People who arrived from Vietnam in 1979 were Chinese.

    So it's a challenging methodological issue.

  58. Anonymous[271] • Disclaimer says:
    @RichardTaylor
    @Some Guy


    Wasn’t this the case in say China too?
     
    Yes, I believe they were polygamous as well.

    Add to that the colder winters.
     
    That's probably true, it's always seemed reasonable the harsh environment led to higher IQ. On the other hand, Eskimos don't seem all that impressive.

    suppose you had a clever wife and a sexy wife, which would end up bearing more of your children? That could mean dysgenics within a family.
     
    Well, beauty and intelligence are correlated. Beauty and sexiness may not be exactly the same but they pretty related. Generally speaking, it seems that all the polygamous societies produced rather ugly, dull-minded people.

    Replies: @Some Guy, @The Cruncher, @Ralph L, @Anonymous, @Anon

    The ancestors of the Aztecs and the Maya all came through Alaska and probably spent thousands of years in Beringia living an Eskimo lifestyle.
    They managed to develop urban civilizations with writing and copper metalwork.
    The Inca develop a very large polity… None of this is really comparable to old world achievements but viewed on its own it’s quite impressive when you consider that they had to do the hard work of domesticating plants which would have taken thousands of years and effectively meant that they were playing catch up vis a vis the old world.

  59. @JohnnyWalker123
    https://twitter.com/RichardHanania/status/1410446394385518593

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    Good grief, what dumbf*cks ….

  60. anon[647] • Disclaimer says:
    @ic1000
    @Some Guy

    > Children who identify as “Native American Only” are actually 15% Amerindian and 71% European

    My impression is that there are very few U.S. Native Americans whose ancestry is mostly Native American. There has been a great deal of introgression from Europeans, a lesser but significant amount from Africans.

    This is consistent with Charles Mann's idea ("1492") that Eurasian diseases (particularly influenza) caused an east-to-west wave of population crashes among North American populations. European/American hybrids likely fared better than purebred Americans.

    On the other hand, there are sizable numbers of Canadian, Mexican, and Central American indigenous people whose % of "Native American" DNA is quite high.

    Replies: @anon, @Bardon Kaldian, @Travis

    My impression is that there are very few U.S. Native Americans whose ancestry is mostly Native American. There has been a great deal of introgression from Europeans, a lesser but significant amount from Africans.

    That varies pretty widely with geography. The Southeastern tribes had white introgression in the late 18th century, as did the Northeastern ones. Sam Houston aka “Big Drunk” spent time among the nations before getting his act together and heading for Texas; he was hardly the only white man to do so. The Seminoles of Florida were an amalgam of smaller tribes, runaway slaves, runaway whites, etc. in the 1820’s. I have known people from the Oklahoma Nations with legit tribal roll numbers who looked more like a southern Italian than any random wagon-burner.

    But further out west how much introgression is there among the Navaho or the Lakota Sioux? Not as much as among the smaller tribes of northern California and parts of Oregon.

    On the other hand, there are sizable numbers of Canadian, Mexican, and Central American indigenous people whose % of “Native American” DNA is quite high.

    The more remote groups such as the Tarahumara of Mexico are bound to have some Conquistador genes, but not very many.

  61. One thing is evident, if you look closely at these two variables, NPsy & SES: culture strongly matters.

    NPsy & SES correlation & differences roughly show that groups tend to have higher SES than NPsy if their status anxiety & orientation towards material success combined with social conformity are stronger; on the other hand, those groups whose SES is significantly lower than their Npsy variable tend to live in a culture having a rather low opinion on social status or, generally, world-view not conductive to “success” in material life. Or they are living a life of collective defeat, like Native Americans.

  62. @ic1000
    @Some Guy

    > Children who identify as “Native American Only” are actually 15% Amerindian and 71% European

    My impression is that there are very few U.S. Native Americans whose ancestry is mostly Native American. There has been a great deal of introgression from Europeans, a lesser but significant amount from Africans.

    This is consistent with Charles Mann's idea ("1492") that Eurasian diseases (particularly influenza) caused an east-to-west wave of population crashes among North American populations. European/American hybrids likely fared better than purebred Americans.

    On the other hand, there are sizable numbers of Canadian, Mexican, and Central American indigenous people whose % of "Native American" DNA is quite high.

    Replies: @anon, @Bardon Kaldian, @Travis

    It actually means that way too many Injuns are white fakers; essentially what McInnes had said at 5:42:

  63. @ThreeCranes
    @obwandiyag

    It's generally accepted that adults create the environment (consciously or not) in which they believe their children stand the best chance of succeeding. Even trees do this by altering the chemical makeup of the surrounding soil so as to favor the growth of their own seedlings.

    The environment created by black people in America is the product of a deep instinctual wisdom which guides black parents in an effort to promote the likelihood of their children's success. Drug dealing, gang membership, flouting weapons and flashing cash on social media and the like are behaviors which will best advance a black child in the black community. Spending promiscuously on rims, hair weaves etc. may not "make sense" to a white person (who needs to display other qualities to advance in their own culture) but it is what "works" in a community of black people. Likewise, promiscuity, having children out of wedlock etc. are behaviors that offer the best hope for a black child's survival to adulthood.

    It sounds as though you have hopped on the bandwagon and are looking at and judging black people through the lens of a white person's eyes.

    The upshot of the data is fairly straightforward. The quickest way to get blacks to adopt white values and performance is to cross breed them with whites. Our Zionist leaders know this--though they won't say so publicly--which is why they promote miscegenation. Miscegenation is a two-fer for them. It both elevates blacks and depresses their direct competition, i.e. white Euros.

    Replies: @ThreeCranes, @Jonathan Mason

    Likewise, promiscuity, having children out of wedlock etc. are behaviors that offer the best hope for a black child’s survival to adulthood.

    It struck me when I first went to Bermuda in 1980 and worked with a woman who had four children by four different fathers that there was a kind of genetic strategy in play here, by which having children by four different fathers gave her the greatest chance of having one really good one who would support her later in life.

    This was just a few years after Dawkins published The Selfish Gene, so I guess these kind of ideas were just starting to be talked about or thought about at that time when I was in my late twenties.

    So, yes, sexual promiscuity could be a viable survival strategy, at least for the genes, if not the individual.

    I once pointed out in the public health paper that I wrote that the African-American women in a certain county in Florida who started having children younger and had more children would end up with having more descendants in future generations.

    This was not the kind of thinking that the public health experts in Florida wanted to hear.

    • Replies: @anon
    @Jonathan Mason

    So, yes, sexual promiscuity could be a viable survival strategy, at least for the genes, if not the individual.

    E.O. Wilson back in 1967 says "hi there!".

    https://www.infobloom.com/what-is-rk-selection-theory.htm

    https://infogalactic.com/info/R/K_selection_theory

    https://socratic.org/biology/natural-selection/rk-selection-theory

    , @ThreeCranes
    @Jonathan Mason

    A relative worked for a religious organization which specialized in helping single, indigent Moms get on track. The black women would tell her how important it was to their peace of mind to believe and act as though lil junior would grow up and support her in her old age. They doted on their little men in a way that is inconceivable to Euro women, which is why black men, once out of the nest, act so privileged. They were raised that way by their single moms and this is a very deep cultural divide between blacks and whites.

    Black men are raised to believe that they are the best. Disparity in outcomes can only come from a rigged system. Whitey be cheatin him. This is not merely Critical Race Theory, it is what black men bring to the table. As the best, the black man's vanity is particularly hurt by a white woman's rejection and this is why so many white girlfriends and spouses end up battered and murdered when they try to break up with Momma's little boy.

    A sister of a very good friend of mine was murdered--execution style--when she tried to break up with her black boy friend. As practicing Catholics, the family must have felt very betrayed by the Catholic Church, the leaders of which are encouraging their white flock to put aside caution in dealing with black men and allowing--encouraging?--their daughters to get involved with black males.

    , @ThreeCranes
    @Jonathan Mason

    "I once pointed out in the public health paper ...This was not the kind of thinking....."

    Good for you. (though I hope you kept your job)

  64. @Some Guy
    @RichardTaylor


    For thousands of years, the smartest men had access to the most women, often dozens of wives.
     
    Wasn't this the case in say China too? Add to that the colder winters.

    Polygamy means many average men have to scrape the bottom of the barrel for wives, so perhaps there's an effect in the opposite direction from that.

    Also, suppose you had a clever wife and a sexy wife, which would end up bearing more of your children? That could mean dysgenics within a family.

    Replies: @RichardTaylor, @Reg Cæsar, @Jonathan Mason

    You would have more children with the clever wife than with the sexy wife, because the clever wife would find a way of disposing of her rival.

  65. @ic1000
    @Some Guy

    > Children who identify as “Native American Only” are actually 15% Amerindian and 71% European

    My impression is that there are very few U.S. Native Americans whose ancestry is mostly Native American. There has been a great deal of introgression from Europeans, a lesser but significant amount from Africans.

    This is consistent with Charles Mann's idea ("1492") that Eurasian diseases (particularly influenza) caused an east-to-west wave of population crashes among North American populations. European/American hybrids likely fared better than purebred Americans.

    On the other hand, there are sizable numbers of Canadian, Mexican, and Central American indigenous people whose % of "Native American" DNA is quite high.

    Replies: @anon, @Bardon Kaldian, @Travis

    My impression is that not a single American Indian today is genetically over 50% Native American unless they have recent ancestors from Mexico.

  66. The Cognitator isn’t the only organ that matters.

    Who do you think has the top “neuropsychiatric performance” in this picture? How’s that working out for him? Check out the physiognomy of the guy holding him. This picture tells a different story than Poso is trying to tell. Likewise Sailer.

    • Replies: @anon
    @Desiderius

    Who do you think has the top “neuropsychiatric performance” in this picture?

    https://media.giphy.com/media/yTAugkkABvlfO/giphy.gif

    Replies: @Desiderius

  67. @Jonathan Mason
    @ThreeCranes


    Likewise, promiscuity, having children out of wedlock etc. are behaviors that offer the best hope for a black child’s survival to adulthood.
     
    It struck me when I first went to Bermuda in 1980 and worked with a woman who had four children by four different fathers that there was a kind of genetic strategy in play here, by which having children by four different fathers gave her the greatest chance of having one really good one who would support her later in life.

    This was just a few years after Dawkins published The Selfish Gene, so I guess these kind of ideas were just starting to be talked about or thought about at that time when I was in my late twenties.

    So, yes, sexual promiscuity could be a viable survival strategy, at least for the genes, if not the individual.

    I once pointed out in the public health paper that I wrote that the African-American women in a certain county in Florida who started having children younger and had more children would end up with having more descendants in future generations.

    This was not the kind of thinking that the public health experts in Florida wanted to hear.

    Replies: @anon, @ThreeCranes, @ThreeCranes

    So, yes, sexual promiscuity could be a viable survival strategy, at least for the genes, if not the individual.

    E.O. Wilson back in 1967 says “hi there!”.

    https://www.infobloom.com/what-is-rk-selection-theory.htm

    https://infogalactic.com/info/R/K_selection_theory

    https://socratic.org/biology/natural-selection/rk-selection-theory

  68. The Mayor isn’t American, he’s Brahmin. No American wants Stonewall to be what we’re known for.

    • Replies: @AnotherDad
    @Desiderius


    The Mayor isn’t American, he’s Brahmin. No American wants Stonewall to be what we’re known for.
     
    Sidiq Khan?

    Replies: @rec1man

    , @Bardon Kaldian
    @Desiderius


    No American wants Stonewall to be what we’re known for.
     
    American nationalists wanted Stonewall Jackson. Instead- they got Stonewall riots ....

    https://media0.giphy.com/media/screugvMjTBjJ4bqgl/giphy.gif
    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Desiderius


    Very few things more perfectly demonstrate that the Brits now live under an American-centered empire than the casual reference to the history of another country as being part of their own history.
     
    Especially on a subject in which they have far more experience and expertise!


    'The king and his husband': The gay history of British royals (WaPo, if you've reached your limit.)

    Beyond The Favourite: The Royal Family's Very Queer History

    The royals are just the tip of the iceberg.

    https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/images/edward-ii-king-of-england-from-1307-edward-ii-succeeded-his-news-photo-804458404-1550717339.jpg

  69. comports with previous work. the default background ‘black’ population is a sponge that has absorbed about 18% european genes, which is what the Penn State study also found. first generation mulattos are less than 50% african. and, presumably, latin americans are partly african. people from Puerto Rico and DR for sure, but also Mexicans are 6% to 8% african on average. not sure on Cubans.

    percent african has a jagged effect on performance on intelligence tests, with a ramp at the edges, which is what i expected and posted about before. it’s sort of 45 degrees on a best fit line, but real world observed numbers aren’t 1:1.

    more africans arrived in New Spain than in the colonies. i believe the numbers were 400,000 for what became United States versus 600,000 for what became Mexico. and they were almost all absorbed. certainly a negative intelligence hit on the population of Mexico. maybe -2 wechsler?

    wonder what the calculation would be if the colonists absorbed all the bantu people. 3% to 4% african for all europeans in the US? -1 wechsler?

  70. @Desiderius
    The Cognitator isn’t the only organ that matters.

    https://twitter.com/JackPosobiec/status/1410462609992826880?s=20

    Who do you think has the top “neuropsychiatric performance” in this picture? How’s that working out for him? Check out the physiognomy of the guy holding him. This picture tells a different story than Poso is trying to tell. Likewise Sailer.

    Replies: @anon

    Who do you think has the top “neuropsychiatric performance” in this picture?

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @anon

    Cognitive dissonance is a bitch, but no reason turn against your adopted family or anything.

    Study's great. Sucks that people are suppressing this data. Need to defeat them by all means possible. Best way to do that is to understand how they came to be in a position of power over us in the first place.

    Dead brains do no science - rigorous or otherwise - nor those which do not manage to get themselves born. You can pretend that I'm missing Steve's point all you like but he knows that is not the case as do the other astute commenters here. They may disagree with me but pretense cuts no ice with them.

    Replies: @anon

  71. Rob says:
    @Rob
    It might be interesting to do a ratio of cognitive to SES means in σ to capture how much unearned privilege/punching above their weight or unrecognized genius/slacker they are.

    Neuro/SES 1 White man holdin’ you down!
    Need to include whether either mean is negative.

    Oh how I wish IQ were normed to 0 with σ = 1. Then no one would confuse it with an absolute scale. ‘115 is 15% smarter than 100!’ Also, IQ below zero just sounds dumber.

    Replies: @Rob

    Huh got rid of my greater and less than signs because html. Neuro/SES greater than one. I know brains and SES do not move in lockstep, but averaging hundreds of people together to get differences in σ for both traits, one would expect the noise in both measures to average out.

  72. @Steve Sailer
    @anon

    Dinesh D'Souza is an Iberic South Asian.

    Replies: @Chuck, @rec1man, @Reg Cæsar

    Dinesh D Souza is a Goa Brahmin convert, likely converted during 250 year inquisition in Goa

  73. .
    Group statistics of achievement gaps are totally valid and are evidence of systemic racism.

    Groups statistics are totally invalid if they explain achievement gaps.

  74. @anonymous
    The South Asians have the highest socio-economic status (household income?) of all groups but “neuropsychiatric performance” wedged in between whites and East Asians. Does that mean some reversion of the mean is occurring among the children of intellectually elite Indian immigrants in the US?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Some Guy, @Polistra, @rec1man, @J.Ross

    1) https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/fact-sheet/asian-americans-indians-in-the-u-s/

    75% of US born, ( 2nd generation ) Indians, have a college degree, hence no reversion to mean detected

    2) The caste composition of this sample is not known, IQ varies by caste

    3) Even average IQ Indians in USA, are very rich, consider a Patel, without a college degree, due to help from fellow Patels, buys a motel, and hence makes $100k

    4) Indians have 1% unwed mothers rate, and close to 0% jail rate, and save a lot of their income, – future time orientation, and hence much wealthier than predicted by just IQ

  75. Anon[437] • Disclaimer says:
    @RichardTaylor
    @Some Guy


    Wasn’t this the case in say China too?
     
    Yes, I believe they were polygamous as well.

    Add to that the colder winters.
     
    That's probably true, it's always seemed reasonable the harsh environment led to higher IQ. On the other hand, Eskimos don't seem all that impressive.

    suppose you had a clever wife and a sexy wife, which would end up bearing more of your children? That could mean dysgenics within a family.
     
    Well, beauty and intelligence are correlated. Beauty and sexiness may not be exactly the same but they pretty related. Generally speaking, it seems that all the polygamous societies produced rather ugly, dull-minded people.

    Replies: @Some Guy, @The Cruncher, @Ralph L, @Anonymous, @Anon

    Well, beauty and intelligence are correlated.

    Men in general, including high IQ men, seem to favor beauty in women over intelligence. And women don’t seem to favor intelligence itself directly in men but rather indirectly as a proxy for worldly success. Most women, including high IQ women, seem to prefer lower IQ men with worldly success such as wealthy and famous pro athletes, over less wealthy and famous but higher IQ men, like say math professors.

    These two factors probably serve to weaken the correlation between beauty and intelligence, and there are studies that suggest the correlation breaks down:

    • Replies: @S. Anonyia
    @Anon

    This study does not weaken the correlation between beauty and intelligence. If 120 is ranked as most sexually attractive (and that’s the top 8-10 % of the US population) then that proves people generally prefer smart men and women. When ordinary people think of their “clever friend” they are usually thinking of someone with an IQ of 115-130. It’s the sweet spot for professionals.

    IQs of 135+ represent 1 % of the population (maybe less since the US average is 98, not 100). Many people are not going to have any meaningful interactions with individuals like this. Perhaps doctor’s visits, but a lot of doctors have IQs in the 120 range, too.

    Also why use pro athletes as your measure of worldly success to compare to a math professor? Most people are not going to interact with pro athletes. Doctors would be a more salient example.

  76. Saul says:

    I have read that intelligence in males is influenced more from the X chromosome than the Y (roughly 75% to 25%). Since white mother, black father is far more common than the reverse, the peak at around 50% African ancestry makes sense. At other ancestry levels, the heritage is likely to be a more even mix between mother and father. At around 50%, it is likely a first generation racial mixture thereby creating smarter boys (but not smarter girls because of the XX chromosomes).

  77. Anon[329] • Disclaimer says:
    @RichardTaylor
    @Anonymous

    Thanks. So this is an estimate of the breeding ratio going back in deep history based on what they see now?

    I thought that most males in deep history had died childless while most females had at least one child. Seems like that would make the breeding ratio larger but maybe I'm not understanding it correctly.

    Shouldn't Mongolians be the best people on earth by the way? They say alone Genghis Khan has 16 million descendants. He was an incredibly intelligent, albeit ruthless, leader.

    By the way, now many descendants does Muhammed have?

    Replies: @Anon, @Reg Cæsar

    Shouldn’t Mongolians be the best people on earth by the way? They say alone Genghis Khan has 16 million descendants. He was an incredibly intelligent, albeit ruthless, leader.

    By the way, now many descendants does Muhammed have?

    The Mongols were a very small military and ruling class that conquered and ruled much larger populations for a short while.

    Muhammad founded a universalist religion that spread via conquest and conversion.

  78. res says:
    @Anon
    I think the Emil Kirkegaard clan did something on admixture, probably less rigorous than this, that showed a linear relationship between IQ and racial percentage. This seems what you'd expect.

    But I remember Steve implying that there is more of a exponential convex curve relationship between Australian indigenous and ... facial attractiveness: a half aborigine looks a quarter, a quarter looks an eighth, etc.

    I wonder if this is true. In other words, I wonder if any admixture result other than linear is even possible. If so, that raises a lot of interesting questions, and identifying the traits that are either flighty or sticky would be a valuable research avenue. It sounds vaguely eugenic however, and would never get funded. Can we breed away obesity? Left-handedness? Male homosexuality?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @res

    This tag might be helpful.
    https://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/tag/admixture/

    I think this is the paper you mean. It is the 2019 study Steve mentioned at the start of his post.
    https://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/2019/09/new-paper-out-global-ancestry-and-cognitive-ability/

    Note the scatterplots which Steve mentioned. I wonder if Emil (or someone else, Chuck?) would be willing to go back to the 2019 data and derive something similar to the nonlinear gradients line in Figure 3 in the current paper? I see a hint of the departure from the regression line near 100% African in the 2019 Figure 3 scatterplot (in particular, look at the distribution of the points on the 0% line, hard to see elsewhere with the overplotting), but a rigorous look would be much better.

    It would also be interesting to see binned (say 5% groups?) distribution plots. It is hard to see what is going on over 90% European with all of the overplotting on the scatterplot.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @res

    As soon as there is a third similar admixture study, somebody should do a meta-analysis of the three of them.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  79. It all goes to explain why mulattoes do so fantastically well — look at our recent presidential cabinets.

    They get that black privilege — and with luck, a white (or dot-Indian) brain.

    To put it differently, ever notice how few genuine, 100% black blacks are able to scramble on to the gravy train? All this affirmative action crap doesn’t actually benefit them at all. It merely further advances an already-privileged caste.

  80. @Polistra
    @anonymous

    Income data can be had for the asking but just try and find household wealth data broken down on ethnic lines. The differences between median and mean are alone enough to start a revolution.

    Replies: @JMcG

    Do you have a source for that data? I’d love to have a look.
    Thank you

  81. res says:
    @Hodag
    I have not read the paper but impressions from your note:

    1. I bet the authors are using deliberately technical and confusing language as a protective mechanism.

    2. Giving a full bore neuropsychological battery of tests to thousands of children is screamingly expensive. Each battery can take 3/4 of a work day and the test givers (even if not neuropsychologists themselves) are highly trained. The testing environment must be controlled (no distractions, correctly timed). Remember: neuropsychology is applied psychometrics and these tests are the gold standard. Much more in depth than an IQ test.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @ic1000, @res

    1. I bet the authors are using deliberately technical and confusing language as a protective mechanism.

    I agree with this as well. If you look at the paper you see it is more focused on the methodology. This is also clear from the abstract (which Steve quoted at the start of his piece). The preprint format which places the Tables and Figures after the references also contributes to this perception.

    Thanks for 2. They used an existing database. This paper has more on the ABCD neurocognition test battery that was used.
    Adolescent neurocognitive development and impacts of substance use: Overview of the adolescent brain cognitive development (ABCD) baseline neurocognition battery
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6039970/

    P.S. Regarding the environment comment above, their methodology is designed to address this. BTW, authors note bolded typo.

    Many behavioural traits covary strongly with racial/ethnic self-identities, but it is often ambigous whether this covariance reflects environmental causes associated with racial/ethnic identity groups or re‡ects underlying genetic similarity among group members arising from shared geographic ancestry. Admixture regression relies on the natural experiment of recent genetic admixture of previously geographically-isolated ancestral groups to measure the explanatory power arising from racial/ethnic group identities and that arising from ancestry-based similarities of genetic background.

  82. Anybody know what the numbers in parentheses mean?

    Otherwise I see no great surprises in the results, except the sample sizes look a touch off. Whites and Blacks appear somewhat overrepresented, and Hispanics underrepresented. At little more than 1%, East Asians also look underrepresented, and I would be surprised if the number of Hapa fourth graders is really 2 and 1/2 times greater than the number of East Asians.

    • Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @Ryan Andrews

    StDev.

    For example
    -white samples have mean age 9.93, StDev 0.63
    -Neuro Psy, the total distribution is normalized to a standard normal distr. with mean 0 and StDev 1

    Replies: @Ryan Andrews

  83. This study captures dozens of self reported dimensions- trouble paying rent, marital status etc. but it looks like they didn’t capture if respondents were adopted or the race of the adoptees. That’s really a shame as it would be very useful to layer these findings into a trans racial adoption analysis. In a sample of nearly 10k, there would probably be a readable sample of transracial adoptees.

  84. @Steve Sailer
    @anonymous

    Sample size issues?

    Replies: @Not Raul

    Maybe different Indians moved to different parts of the country.

    Some areas have more high caste doctors, lawyers, and engineers; and other areas have more low caste agricultural workers, and the like.

    • Agree: rec1man
  85. ThreeCranes: “Even trees do this by altering the chemical makeup of the surrounding soil so as to favor the growth of their own seedlings.”

    I think the phenomenon you are referring to is called allelopathy. They don’t actually make the soil better for their offspring, but because the chemicals they place in the soil inhibit the growth of competing plants, it appears that way. When competition from other plant species is suppressed via allelopathy, you wind up with a more or less solid stand of plants of the same kind. Lots of plants do this. Some common examples would be walnut trees, locust trees, bracken fern, sunflowers, etc. As you point out though, there may be human analogues. Cultural conflict happens when one race tries to reshape its environment to inhibit the growth of its competitors. But in the human case, racial hybridization tends to resolve the issue eventually, whereas with competing plant species, this isn’t an option. Ferns can’t hybridize with walnut trees, nor sunflowers with locusts.

  86. @Jonathan Mason
    @ThreeCranes


    Likewise, promiscuity, having children out of wedlock etc. are behaviors that offer the best hope for a black child’s survival to adulthood.
     
    It struck me when I first went to Bermuda in 1980 and worked with a woman who had four children by four different fathers that there was a kind of genetic strategy in play here, by which having children by four different fathers gave her the greatest chance of having one really good one who would support her later in life.

    This was just a few years after Dawkins published The Selfish Gene, so I guess these kind of ideas were just starting to be talked about or thought about at that time when I was in my late twenties.

    So, yes, sexual promiscuity could be a viable survival strategy, at least for the genes, if not the individual.

    I once pointed out in the public health paper that I wrote that the African-American women in a certain county in Florida who started having children younger and had more children would end up with having more descendants in future generations.

    This was not the kind of thinking that the public health experts in Florida wanted to hear.

    Replies: @anon, @ThreeCranes, @ThreeCranes

    A relative worked for a religious organization which specialized in helping single, indigent Moms get on track. The black women would tell her how important it was to their peace of mind to believe and act as though lil junior would grow up and support her in her old age. They doted on their little men in a way that is inconceivable to Euro women, which is why black men, once out of the nest, act so privileged. They were raised that way by their single moms and this is a very deep cultural divide between blacks and whites.

    Black men are raised to believe that they are the best. Disparity in outcomes can only come from a rigged system. Whitey be cheatin him. This is not merely Critical Race Theory, it is what black men bring to the table. As the best, the black man’s vanity is particularly hurt by a white woman’s rejection and this is why so many white girlfriends and spouses end up battered and murdered when they try to break up with Momma’s little boy.

    A sister of a very good friend of mine was murdered–execution style–when she tried to break up with her black boy friend. As practicing Catholics, the family must have felt very betrayed by the Catholic Church, the leaders of which are encouraging their white flock to put aside caution in dealing with black men and allowing–encouraging?–their daughters to get involved with black males.

  87. @Jonathan Mason
    @ThreeCranes


    Likewise, promiscuity, having children out of wedlock etc. are behaviors that offer the best hope for a black child’s survival to adulthood.
     
    It struck me when I first went to Bermuda in 1980 and worked with a woman who had four children by four different fathers that there was a kind of genetic strategy in play here, by which having children by four different fathers gave her the greatest chance of having one really good one who would support her later in life.

    This was just a few years after Dawkins published The Selfish Gene, so I guess these kind of ideas were just starting to be talked about or thought about at that time when I was in my late twenties.

    So, yes, sexual promiscuity could be a viable survival strategy, at least for the genes, if not the individual.

    I once pointed out in the public health paper that I wrote that the African-American women in a certain county in Florida who started having children younger and had more children would end up with having more descendants in future generations.

    This was not the kind of thinking that the public health experts in Florida wanted to hear.

    Replies: @anon, @ThreeCranes, @ThreeCranes

    “I once pointed out in the public health paper …This was not the kind of thinking…..”

    Good for you. (though I hope you kept your job)

  88. @obwandiyag
    How do they control for environment?

    I'll tell ya how. They don't.

    Replies: @ThreeCranes, @ic1000, @AnotherDad

    How do they control for environment?

    I’ll tell ya how. They don’t.

    Correct. This is straight up performance/genetics.

    I’ll note though that one of the stakes that absolutely nails down genetics as being a primary contributor to B/W performance gaps in the US is that “controlling for environment” shows that the most “environmentally privileged” blacks–the very top income slice–barely outperform the bottom cohort of whites–the folks with single moms, chaotic/disorganized lives, crappy diets, mediocre schools, etc.–on cognitive measures and are comparable on homicide.

    Even if you got comparable cognitive/criminal performance across the races at comparable socio-economic levels, there would still be the question “Why are there so many more of X than Y at the top level and so many more of Y than X at the bottom?” I.e. it would still be an open question as to whether genetics is driving the socio-economic skew.

    But we do not even see that. What we see is that blacks doing very, very well economically, kids in the same high end suburban public schools or private schools showing much worse performance in school and criminal violence. It isn’t that there is just much lower percentage of blacks at middle/upper-middle/elite income levels, it is that the ones there perform much more poorly–not a little bit, but drastically–than whites.

    This fact–much poorer black cognitive/criminal performance at a given socio-economic/income level–just eviscerates the “racism” explanation and points strongly at a predominantly genetic cause.

    • Replies: @obwandiyag
    @AnotherDad

    That's not controlling for environment. That's just more statistics. You don't know what controlling for environment means.

    They don't do it because it is impossible. And yet, the fact that environment could be behind everything obviates all their genetic certainty.

  89. @Desiderius
    https://twitter.com/arnolfson/status/1409715744149970956?s=20

    The Mayor isn’t American, he’s Brahmin. No American wants Stonewall to be what we’re known for.

    Replies: @AnotherDad, @Bardon Kaldian, @Reg Cæsar

    The Mayor isn’t American, he’s Brahmin. No American wants Stonewall to be what we’re known for.

    Sidiq Khan?

    • Replies: @rec1man
    @AnotherDad

    He is a muslim, definitely not a brahmin

    The UK chancellor of the exchequer, Rishi Sunak is a Brahmin

    Replies: @Desiderius

  90. @AnotherDad
    @Desiderius


    The Mayor isn’t American, he’s Brahmin. No American wants Stonewall to be what we’re known for.
     
    Sidiq Khan?

    Replies: @rec1man

    He is a muslim, definitely not a brahmin

    The UK chancellor of the exchequer, Rishi Sunak is a Brahmin

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @rec1man

    There was this thing called the Mughal Empire. Might what to look into it. You’ll also find Brahmins in Boston of all places. And I’d contend DC by way of Salt Lake City.

    Replies: @AnotherDad, @rec1man

  91. @Anonymous
    @RichardTaylor


    However, we should definitely see a rise in beauty over time, shouldn’t we? There are certainly beautiful women in the Middle East but generally speaking, the most beautiful are considered Europeans. And to be blunt, a lot of historically polygamous areas have a lot of ugly people.
     
    The most beautiful women are considered East Asian and East-Eurasian mixes, not European women. White women have a masculine look.


    https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1068/p5191

    In experiment 1, Caucasian participants rated own-race composites as more attractive than other-race composites, but only for male faces. However, mixed-race (Caucasian/Japanese) composites were significantly more attractive than own-race composites, particularly for the opposite sex
     
    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13506285.2018.1475437

    Marriages between White men and Asian women are over twice as frequent as those between White women and Asian men. Recent research has proposed that this imbalance may be explained by the finding that, on average, White men are perceived as more attractive than Asian men, and Asian women are perceived as more attractive than White women, possibly because Asian faces are perceived as more feminine than White faces.

    Here, we explore whether Asian faces are perceived as more feminine than White faces. Thirty-five Malaysian Chinese (20 male) and 30 Australian White (12 male) participants manipulated 100 face photographs (50 Asian; 50 White; half male) on a masculinity/femininity axis to optimize attractive appearance.

    As predicted, White women’s faces were increased more in femininity than Asian women’s faces, and White men’s faces were feminized more than Asian men’s faces to optimize attractiveness. These findings suggest that White faces are perceived as more masculine than Asian faces.
     
    https://www.economist.com/img/b/1280/672/90/sites/default/files/images/print-edition/20180818_FBC544.png


    https://kjonnsforskning.no/en/2015/09/blond-sexy-and-immigrant

    According to Lundström there is much focus on whiteness in Singapore. Ads for skin whitening products are common, and whiteness is the ideal. But the ideal of beauty is not a white, blond western woman.

    “Western women were ranked below the Chinese in the racial hierarchy. The western whiteness is not as posh as the Singaporean, Chinese whiteness,” says Lundström.

    “The Swedish women in Singapore were almost desexualised. They felt less feminine,” says Lundström.
     

    Replies: @RichardTaylor, @James Speaks

    The most beautiful women are considered East Asian and East-Eurasian mixes, not European women. White women have a masculine look.

    I disagree. Marina looks perfect to me. It’s probably that Celt (actual Welsh Celt) / Greek mixture.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @James Speaks

    I can't shake hands with a man who calls that "perfect."

    , @Highlander
    @James Speaks

    Sorry, try this:

    https://assets.vogue.com/photos/5891567b85b395961847350e/master/w_1600,c_limit/01-princess-grace-kelly-prince-rainier-monaco-wedding.jpg

    Replies: @James Speaks, @James Speaks, @James Speaks, @reiner Tor

  92. @Desiderius
    https://twitter.com/arnolfson/status/1409715744149970956?s=20

    The Mayor isn’t American, he’s Brahmin. No American wants Stonewall to be what we’re known for.

    Replies: @AnotherDad, @Bardon Kaldian, @Reg Cæsar

    No American wants Stonewall to be what we’re known for.

    American nationalists wanted Stonewall Jackson. Instead- they got Stonewall riots ….

  93. @anonymous
    The South Asians have the highest socio-economic status (household income?) of all groups but “neuropsychiatric performance” wedged in between whites and East Asians. Does that mean some reversion of the mean is occurring among the children of intellectually elite Indian immigrants in the US?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Some Guy, @Polistra, @rec1man, @J.Ross

    Indians culturally have four stages of life, with one of the middle ones being “makes as much money as you possibly can.” Indian families will have grandma watch the kids while the husband, wife, and possibly other appropriately aged relatives grind at the family business or defraud Medicare. They could be less intelligent and would probably make the same amount of money because their entire lives are geared to that and nothing in our society competes. Jews make money by either learning highly valued skills or using connections to corner a market or feeding addictions. Whites make money by working what they consider to be hard, and inferior whites make money by selling access to political office. Indians make money by dedicating their lives to chasing paper because you can learn your kid’s name when you’re retired and watching whatshisname’s kids (your grandkids).

  94. @jimmyriddle
    @Reg Cæsar

    Like the Governator.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    Serves him right:

  95. @DanHessinMD
    There is a very interesting and potentially significant result here that is new to me and likely most readers. Most here are aware of racial differences in cognitive scores as well as the fact that kids inherit their cognitive ability from their parents. But the cognitive scores for admixture seem to show something interesting that I hadn't seen before.

    If one averages the black and white average cognitive score, one gets -0.26 (.26 standard deviations below the mean). But the actual average score for mixed black and white children is -0.13 (.13 standard deviations below the mean).

    If one averages the white and East Asian average cognitive score, one gets 0.41 (.41 standard deviations above the mean). But the actual average score for mixed white and East Asian children is 0.58 (.58 standard deviations above the mean).

    If one averages the white and South Asian average cognitive score, one gets 0.35. But the actual average score for mixed white and South Asian children is 0.84.

    If one averages the white and Native American average cognitive score, one gets -0.085. But the actual average score for mixed white and Native American children is 0.01.

    Is this a heterosis (hybrid vigor) effect?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosis

    Replies: @Some Guy, @Steve Sailer, @Some Guy, @Ralph L, @Ryan Andrews

    Could also be that black people need to be above-average to bag themselves a white(how often does a ghetto black even meet a white person?), white men need to be above average to bag themselves an East Asian woman(are East Asian women really going to bring a white unskilled labourer home to mom and dad?), and we know East Asian men have a tough time getting white women, so they probably have to compensate by extra high socioeconomic status to be successful etc.

    With South Asian-White couples I agree because of South Asian’s high endogamy.

  96. Anonymous[238] • Disclaimer says:
    @James Speaks
    @Anonymous


    The most beautiful women are considered East Asian and East-Eurasian mixes, not European women. White women have a masculine look.
     
    I disagree. Marina looks perfect to me. It's probably that Celt (actual Welsh Celt) / Greek mixture.

    https://celebvogue.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Marina-and-the-Diamonds-1024x768.jpg

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Highlander

    I can’t shake hands with a man who calls that “perfect.”

  97. Anonymous[238] • Disclaimer says:
    @RichardTaylor
    @Anonymous

    Well that's an interesting study. But the desirability of blonde women seems awfully widespread in real life. If you look online for anything related to pretty women, White women tower above all others, followed by the Japanese.

    But either way, we still have the problem that the most polygamous areas throughout history did not produce the most attractive women.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @e

    Well that’s an interesting study. But the desirability of blonde women seems awfully widespread in real life. If you look online for anything related to pretty women, White women tower above all others, followed by the Japanese.

    Source? Most studies I’ve seen have ranked white women as underrepresented in jut about everything.

  98. @Lagertha
    not gonna comment - just checking on stuff

    Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican

    Only kidding, Laggy. 🙂

  99. @RichardTaylor
    @Anonymous

    Thanks. So this is an estimate of the breeding ratio going back in deep history based on what they see now?

    I thought that most males in deep history had died childless while most females had at least one child. Seems like that would make the breeding ratio larger but maybe I'm not understanding it correctly.

    Shouldn't Mongolians be the best people on earth by the way? They say alone Genghis Khan has 16 million descendants. He was an incredibly intelligent, albeit ruthless, leader.

    By the way, now many descendants does Muhammed have?

    Replies: @Anon, @Reg Cæsar

    By the way, now many descendants does Muhammed have?

    You are very likely one of them.

  100. @DanHessinMD
    There is a very interesting and potentially significant result here that is new to me and likely most readers. Most here are aware of racial differences in cognitive scores as well as the fact that kids inherit their cognitive ability from their parents. But the cognitive scores for admixture seem to show something interesting that I hadn't seen before.

    If one averages the black and white average cognitive score, one gets -0.26 (.26 standard deviations below the mean). But the actual average score for mixed black and white children is -0.13 (.13 standard deviations below the mean).

    If one averages the white and East Asian average cognitive score, one gets 0.41 (.41 standard deviations above the mean). But the actual average score for mixed white and East Asian children is 0.58 (.58 standard deviations above the mean).

    If one averages the white and South Asian average cognitive score, one gets 0.35. But the actual average score for mixed white and South Asian children is 0.84.

    If one averages the white and Native American average cognitive score, one gets -0.085. But the actual average score for mixed white and Native American children is 0.01.

    Is this a heterosis (hybrid vigor) effect?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosis

    Replies: @Some Guy, @Steve Sailer, @Some Guy, @Ralph L, @Ryan Andrews

    Thanks.

    Or maybe it’s a culture effect? Or a selection effect?

  101. @Anon
    @RichardTaylor


    Well, beauty and intelligence are correlated.
     
    Men in general, including high IQ men, seem to favor beauty in women over intelligence. And women don't seem to favor intelligence itself directly in men but rather indirectly as a proxy for worldly success. Most women, including high IQ women, seem to prefer lower IQ men with worldly success such as wealthy and famous pro athletes, over less wealthy and famous but higher IQ men, like say math professors.

    These two factors probably serve to weaken the correlation between beauty and intelligence, and there are studies that suggest the correlation breaks down:

    https://twitter.com/robkhenderson/status/1392239448302231553

    Replies: @S. Anonyia

    This study does not weaken the correlation between beauty and intelligence. If 120 is ranked as most sexually attractive (and that’s the top 8-10 % of the US population) then that proves people generally prefer smart men and women. When ordinary people think of their “clever friend” they are usually thinking of someone with an IQ of 115-130. It’s the sweet spot for professionals.

    IQs of 135+ represent 1 % of the population (maybe less since the US average is 98, not 100). Many people are not going to have any meaningful interactions with individuals like this. Perhaps doctor’s visits, but a lot of doctors have IQs in the 120 range, too.

    Also why use pro athletes as your measure of worldly success to compare to a math professor? Most people are not going to interact with pro athletes. Doctors would be a more salient example.

  102. @Jimbo Tate
    " East Asian (“Chinese,” “Filipino,” “Japanese,” “Korean,” and “Vietnamese”, “Other Asian,”), "

    Another flawed study which groups Southeast Asians with East Asians as if they are the same. It isnt like East Asians are the largest racial or ethnic group in the world with a population of close to 2 Billion people with a distinct history and Southeast Asians have significant austronesian / melanesian ancestries with their own distinct histories. It is the equivalent of doing a report on Europeans and including North Africans, Arabs and Northern Indians in the study because all of these subgroups are Caucasians. Of course this is an American study who thinks the 2 people in the below picture are classified as the same :

    https://i.imgur.com/toPirM2.jpg

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    But a not insignificant share of Southeast Asians in the United States are Overseas Chinese by ancestry. For example, Amy Chua’s parents are from the Philippines but their family tree goes back to very bright Fujian on the Chinese mainland.

    A big fraction of the Boat People who arrived from Vietnam in 1979 were Chinese.

    So it’s a challenging methodological issue.

  103. (ABCD) is a collaborative longitudinal project between 21 sites across the US.

    Some of the tests involved were administered to public school kids, presumably during school hours.

    The kids are guinea pigs for quack psychologists, funding tokens (slaves) for public education union bureaucrats, subjects for indoctrinaires, and so forth.

    Public education. It’s for the children.

  104. @Desiderius
    https://twitter.com/arnolfson/status/1409715744149970956?s=20

    The Mayor isn’t American, he’s Brahmin. No American wants Stonewall to be what we’re known for.

    Replies: @AnotherDad, @Bardon Kaldian, @Reg Cæsar

    Very few things more perfectly demonstrate that the Brits now live under an American-centered empire than the casual reference to the history of another country as being part of their own history.

    Especially on a subject in which they have far more experience and expertise!

    ‘The king and his husband’: The gay history of British royals (WaPo, if you’ve reached your limit.)

    Beyond The Favourite: The Royal Family’s Very Queer History

    The royals are just the tip of the iceberg.

  105. @res
    @Anon

    This tag might be helpful.
    https://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/tag/admixture/

    I think this is the paper you mean. It is the 2019 study Steve mentioned at the start of his post.
    https://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/2019/09/new-paper-out-global-ancestry-and-cognitive-ability/

    Note the scatterplots which Steve mentioned. I wonder if Emil (or someone else, Chuck?) would be willing to go back to the 2019 data and derive something similar to the nonlinear gradients line in Figure 3 in the current paper? I see a hint of the departure from the regression line near 100% African in the 2019 Figure 3 scatterplot (in particular, look at the distribution of the points on the 0% line, hard to see elsewhere with the overplotting), but a rigorous look would be much better.

    It would also be interesting to see binned (say 5% groups?) distribution plots. It is hard to see what is going on over 90% European with all of the overplotting on the scatterplot.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    As soon as there is a third similar admixture study, somebody should do a meta-analysis of the three of them.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Steve Sailer

    Pesta did both, so I'd like to see him compare and contrast the two studies, each of which used separate sample sizes of around 10,000.

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

  106. @Steve Sailer
    @res

    As soon as there is a third similar admixture study, somebody should do a meta-analysis of the three of them.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Pesta did both, so I’d like to see him compare and contrast the two studies, each of which used separate sample sizes of around 10,000.

    • Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @Steve Sailer

    I've skimmed the paper. In the Conclusion


    This paper provides a statistical framework for admixture regression based on the linear polygenic index model of behavioural genetics, and develops refinements and extensions of the methodology within this framework. We provide a simple new test procedure for determining whether multiple-SIRE categories have independent explanatory power not captured by the individual component categories. We consider additional explanatory variable in the admixture regression and their interpretation with and without orthogonalization with respect to core variables. We weaken the linearity assumption and develop a partially linear semiparametric regression specification. We illustrate our methodology using neuropsychological performance test data from the Adolescent Brain Cognitive Development database, but the techniques have broader applicability.
     
    In English, the paper doesn't claim any empirical conclusions, since clearly, as you say, samples are small. But it sets up a framework to make further experiments.

    What the terms in bold means is if its a simple relationship of a black having more white admixture, then higher performance, then it can be modeled using linear regression.

    But similar to the relationship between temperature and the consumption of electricity, it cannot be expressed in a linear model, because there are many factors, such as average income, price, etc.

    So a partially linear semiparametric regression can "glue" together a number of linear regressions, to fit a more complex profile.
  107. @Steve Sailer
    @Some Guy

    The term "Native American Only" might imply that they claim to be 100% American Indian, but I think it means that "Native American" was the only box the parent checked.

    Replies: @Chuck, @TWS

    Most who claim to be FBI are enrolled tribal members. Regardless of blood quantum they consider themselves 100% ‘Indian’. Most Indians east of the Mississippi have some white. They don’t hold genetics as important as family and community.

  108. @Ryan Andrews
    Anybody know what the numbers in parentheses mean?

    Otherwise I see no great surprises in the results, except the sample sizes look a touch off. Whites and Blacks appear somewhat overrepresented, and Hispanics underrepresented. At little more than 1%, East Asians also look underrepresented, and I would be surprised if the number of Hapa fourth graders is really 2 and 1/2 times greater than the number of East Asians.

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    StDev.

    For example
    -white samples have mean age 9.93, StDev 0.63
    -Neuro Psy, the total distribution is normalized to a standard normal distr. with mean 0 and StDev 1

    • Replies: @Ryan Andrews
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    But then how can, for instance, Whites be .97 White with a standard deviation of .05, or .01 Black with a standard deviation of .02? You can't be more than 100% White, or less than 0% Black.

    Replies: @Peter Johnson, @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

  109. @Steve Sailer
    @anon

    Dinesh D'Souza is an Iberic South Asian.

    Replies: @Chuck, @rec1man, @Reg Cæsar

    Dinesh D’Souza is an Iberic South Asian.

    Goa way!

    Seriously, it was funny to see him at Mike Lindell’s MAGA rally in Somerset, Wisconsin, earlier this month. Lindell and other American-born (male) speakers wore suits and ties, as did Donald Trump as always, albeit in an air-conditioned studio in some faraway locale.

    D’Souza, in contrast, wore a pink Polo shirt. It was in the mid 80°s, after a muggy week in the 90°s, so perhaps the local speakers felt it in relative terms. You’d think, though, that with his low-latitudes upbringing, he’d have been the most comfortable one there in formal dress.

    This is what they looked like:

    https://home.frankspeech.com/tv/video/dinesh-dsouza-interviews-mike-lindell-keep-faith

    Interestingly, he came here at 18, but has no trace of a subcontinental accent, except at his most excitable moments. That’s highly unusual for adults who learn English as a foreign language. But English is not a foreign language in India, it’s a second native one for many.

    India is analogous to Scotland in that respect. Is it much easier to shift accents in one’s native (or near-native) tongue than to adopt foreign phonology?

  110. @rec1man
    @AnotherDad

    He is a muslim, definitely not a brahmin

    The UK chancellor of the exchequer, Rishi Sunak is a Brahmin

    Replies: @Desiderius

    There was this thing called the Mughal Empire. Might what to look into it. You’ll also find Brahmins in Boston of all places. And I’d contend DC by way of Salt Lake City.

    • Replies: @AnotherDad
    @Desiderius


    There was this thing called the Mughal Empire. Might what to look into it. You’ll also find Brahmins in Boston of all places. And I’d contend DC by way of Salt Lake City.
     
    My understanding--from the Brahmins i know (i.e. biased)--is the Muslims pulled mostly from the lower castes. (Better deal quitting Hinduism for them.) (Sidiq Khan is supposedly from a working class Paki background.) Though obviously there were at least some (Brahmin) scribes and bean counters who must have decided that "opportunities" were worth dumping religion/family/tribe.

    Obviously you're free to use whatever code you want. "Brahmin" for "South Asian" or even just annoying overclass a*hole.

    But these made-up, overly broad uses just lose information and miss an interesting sociological phenomenon: In the US, we actually are seeing the rise of real honest-to-goodness Brahmins as a new parasitic, verbalist overclass, tedious hectoring Americans with minoritarian lies.

    The people who did such a great job on top of the Indian social structure for the last 3000 years, that they quit India and defected to America ... now telling us how terrible our ancestors were and our nation is.

    Replies: @Desiderius

    , @rec1man
    @Desiderius

    Very few brahmins and merchants converted to islam - most converts to islam, were low caste artisans, weavers etc

    Replies: @Desiderius

  111. @Steve Sailer
    @Steve Sailer

    Pesta did both, so I'd like to see him compare and contrast the two studies, each of which used separate sample sizes of around 10,000.

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    I’ve skimmed the paper. In the Conclusion

    This paper provides a statistical framework for admixture regression based on the linear polygenic index model of behavioural genetics, and develops refinements and extensions of the methodology within this framework. We provide a simple new test procedure for determining whether multiple-SIRE categories have independent explanatory power not captured by the individual component categories. We consider additional explanatory variable in the admixture regression and their interpretation with and without orthogonalization with respect to core variables. We weaken the linearity assumption and develop a partially linear semiparametric regression specification. We illustrate our methodology using neuropsychological performance test data from the Adolescent Brain Cognitive Development database, but the techniques have broader applicability.

    In English, the paper doesn’t claim any empirical conclusions, since clearly, as you say, samples are small. But it sets up a framework to make further experiments.

    What the terms in bold means is if its a simple relationship of a black having more white admixture, then higher performance, then it can be modeled using linear regression.

    But similar to the relationship between temperature and the consumption of electricity, it cannot be expressed in a linear model, because there are many factors, such as average income, price, etc.

    So a partially linear semiparametric regression can “glue” together a number of linear regressions, to fit a more complex profile.

    • Thanks: Desiderius
  112. Anonymous[238] • Disclaimer says:
    4754621

    The butthurt is strong in this one.

  113. @anon
    @Desiderius

    Who do you think has the top “neuropsychiatric performance” in this picture?

    https://media.giphy.com/media/yTAugkkABvlfO/giphy.gif

    Replies: @Desiderius

    Cognitive dissonance is a bitch, but no reason turn against your adopted family or anything.

    Study’s great. Sucks that people are suppressing this data. Need to defeat them by all means possible. Best way to do that is to understand how they came to be in a position of power over us in the first place.

    Dead brains do no science – rigorous or otherwise – nor those which do not manage to get themselves born. You can pretend that I’m missing Steve’s point all you like but he knows that is not the case as do the other astute commenters here. They may disagree with me but pretense cuts no ice with them.

    • Replies: @anon
    @Desiderius

    https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AnotherHastyAmericanindianhorse-max-1mb.gif

    Replies: @Desiderius

  114. @DanHessinMD
    There is a very interesting and potentially significant result here that is new to me and likely most readers. Most here are aware of racial differences in cognitive scores as well as the fact that kids inherit their cognitive ability from their parents. But the cognitive scores for admixture seem to show something interesting that I hadn't seen before.

    If one averages the black and white average cognitive score, one gets -0.26 (.26 standard deviations below the mean). But the actual average score for mixed black and white children is -0.13 (.13 standard deviations below the mean).

    If one averages the white and East Asian average cognitive score, one gets 0.41 (.41 standard deviations above the mean). But the actual average score for mixed white and East Asian children is 0.58 (.58 standard deviations above the mean).

    If one averages the white and South Asian average cognitive score, one gets 0.35. But the actual average score for mixed white and South Asian children is 0.84.

    If one averages the white and Native American average cognitive score, one gets -0.085. But the actual average score for mixed white and Native American children is 0.01.

    Is this a heterosis (hybrid vigor) effect?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosis

    Replies: @Some Guy, @Steve Sailer, @Some Guy, @Ralph L, @Ryan Andrews

    If one averages the white and Native American average cognitive score, one gets -0.085. But the actual average score for mixed white and Native American children is 0.01.

    Also, since “White and Native” are 90% European, while “Native only” are 70% European, the hybrid vigor should be in favor of “Native only”.

  115. @Desiderius
    @rec1man

    There was this thing called the Mughal Empire. Might what to look into it. You’ll also find Brahmins in Boston of all places. And I’d contend DC by way of Salt Lake City.

    Replies: @AnotherDad, @rec1man

    There was this thing called the Mughal Empire. Might what to look into it. You’ll also find Brahmins in Boston of all places. And I’d contend DC by way of Salt Lake City.

    My understanding–from the Brahmins i know (i.e. biased)–is the Muslims pulled mostly from the lower castes. (Better deal quitting Hinduism for them.) (Sidiq Khan is supposedly from a working class Paki background.) Though obviously there were at least some (Brahmin) scribes and bean counters who must have decided that “opportunities” were worth dumping religion/family/tribe.

    Obviously you’re free to use whatever code you want. “Brahmin” for “South Asian” or even just annoying overclass a*hole.

    But these made-up, overly broad uses just lose information and miss an interesting sociological phenomenon: In the US, we actually are seeing the rise of real honest-to-goodness Brahmins as a new parasitic, verbalist overclass, tedious hectoring Americans with minoritarian lies.

    The people who did such a great job on top of the Indian social structure for the last 3000 years, that they quit India and defected to America … now telling us how terrible our ancestors were and our nation is.

    • Thanks: Desiderius
    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @AnotherDad

    Good post.

    Boston Brahmins are a thing for a reason. A Brahmin is someone who favors a caste or caste-like system of social stratification that features limited social mobility and birth over merit ( I wouldn't mind moving this direction somewhat myself to counteract atomization/disintegration) in determining one's strata with themselves on top.

    Hence the Calvinist Elect or, you know, the Latter Day Saints occupying themselves in these latter days with breaking down the doors of harmless grandmas and holding them in solitary without trial because they can, being saints and all and the grandmas sinners. I know that's not how the doctrine works but someone should probably tell the indoctrinated.

    As such a system is instituted globally naturally those with centuries of experience living with such systems have an advantage in operating within it (probably goes a long way to explain their enthusiasm in instituting it). That includes people like Khan who grew up adjacent to it rather than directly benefiting from it. He does now, which is why I called him a Brahmin.

  116. @DanHessinMD
    There is a very interesting and potentially significant result here that is new to me and likely most readers. Most here are aware of racial differences in cognitive scores as well as the fact that kids inherit their cognitive ability from their parents. But the cognitive scores for admixture seem to show something interesting that I hadn't seen before.

    If one averages the black and white average cognitive score, one gets -0.26 (.26 standard deviations below the mean). But the actual average score for mixed black and white children is -0.13 (.13 standard deviations below the mean).

    If one averages the white and East Asian average cognitive score, one gets 0.41 (.41 standard deviations above the mean). But the actual average score for mixed white and East Asian children is 0.58 (.58 standard deviations above the mean).

    If one averages the white and South Asian average cognitive score, one gets 0.35. But the actual average score for mixed white and South Asian children is 0.84.

    If one averages the white and Native American average cognitive score, one gets -0.085. But the actual average score for mixed white and Native American children is 0.01.

    Is this a heterosis (hybrid vigor) effect?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosis

    Replies: @Some Guy, @Steve Sailer, @Some Guy, @Ralph L, @Ryan Andrews

    Or it could be that most of the whites mixing with other races are above average.

  117. @Desiderius
    @rec1man

    There was this thing called the Mughal Empire. Might what to look into it. You’ll also find Brahmins in Boston of all places. And I’d contend DC by way of Salt Lake City.

    Replies: @AnotherDad, @rec1man

    Very few brahmins and merchants converted to islam – most converts to islam, were low caste artisans, weavers etc

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @rec1man

    Did the Mughals maintain the Caste System?

    In any event I'm using the term in a more figurative sense, though I should probably admit that I didn't know that Khan was Muslim. If I'd put more thought into it of course it's pretty obvious but I didn't.

    Replies: @rec1man, @Psun

  118. @AnotherDad
    @Desiderius


    There was this thing called the Mughal Empire. Might what to look into it. You’ll also find Brahmins in Boston of all places. And I’d contend DC by way of Salt Lake City.
     
    My understanding--from the Brahmins i know (i.e. biased)--is the Muslims pulled mostly from the lower castes. (Better deal quitting Hinduism for them.) (Sidiq Khan is supposedly from a working class Paki background.) Though obviously there were at least some (Brahmin) scribes and bean counters who must have decided that "opportunities" were worth dumping religion/family/tribe.

    Obviously you're free to use whatever code you want. "Brahmin" for "South Asian" or even just annoying overclass a*hole.

    But these made-up, overly broad uses just lose information and miss an interesting sociological phenomenon: In the US, we actually are seeing the rise of real honest-to-goodness Brahmins as a new parasitic, verbalist overclass, tedious hectoring Americans with minoritarian lies.

    The people who did such a great job on top of the Indian social structure for the last 3000 years, that they quit India and defected to America ... now telling us how terrible our ancestors were and our nation is.

    Replies: @Desiderius

    Good post.

    Boston Brahmins are a thing for a reason. A Brahmin is someone who favors a caste or caste-like system of social stratification that features limited social mobility and birth over merit ( I wouldn’t mind moving this direction somewhat myself to counteract atomization/disintegration) in determining one’s strata with themselves on top.

    Hence the Calvinist Elect or, you know, the Latter Day Saints occupying themselves in these latter days with breaking down the doors of harmless grandmas and holding them in solitary without trial because they can, being saints and all and the grandmas sinners. I know that’s not how the doctrine works but someone should probably tell the indoctrinated.

    As such a system is instituted globally naturally those with centuries of experience living with such systems have an advantage in operating within it (probably goes a long way to explain their enthusiasm in instituting it). That includes people like Khan who grew up adjacent to it rather than directly benefiting from it. He does now, which is why I called him a Brahmin.

  119. @RichardTaylor
    If the HBD worldview is correct, why isn't the Middle East the apex of civilization? For thousands of years, the smartest men had access to the most women, often dozens of wives.

    It should be the land of the most beautiful and intelligent people on earth.

    Meanwhile, White people, who tended to practice monogamy, actually became what many considered the most beautiful and intelligent. Bear in mind, the ancient White pagans were generally monogamous, while the ancient Jews (who were not that smart) and most other people practiced polygamy big time.

    Replies: @Some Guy, @Anonymous, @AnotherDad, @Kratoklastes, @Daniel Chieh

    If the HBD worldview is correct, why isn’t the Middle East the apex of civilization? For thousands of years, the smartest men had access to the most women, often dozens of wives.

    This isn’t some deep logical conundrum–at least not to me.

    Polygamy–more or less our barbarous natural state–indeed allows high quality men to have more children. However, that comes with basically zero social trust. Men are continuously in violent competition for the available women. Smart capable young men, must devote their energies entirely to becoming a “big man”, beating out other men–including older men–to get women. Huge resources are spent fighting and mate guarding. And the trust boundary ends at family (and maybe not even there!).

    In contrast societies that are able to enforce some sort of “one per customer” monogamy norm can build social trust. Men can turn their energies to something other than fighting and mate guarding and actually … build stuff … like “civilization”. (Note, i realize the top dogs in many societies may be polygamous. Not important. What’s important is that the farmer, the blacksmith, the shipwright, the cooper, the clerk … can all find a wife, enjoy life and have a stake in the future.) There is still plenty of eugenic sexual competition with more capable successful men getting better women, having/supporting more surviving children.

    And, of course, without continual sexual competition men can trust each other at larger scales which allows more effective armies/combat that actually defeat lower trust–and more fractious–polygamous societies.

    Most effective at milking the monogamy cow obviously … Western Christian civilization.

    • Thanks: RichardTaylor, ic1000
    • Replies: @ic1000
    @AnotherDad

    > Polygamy–more or less our barbarous natural state–indeed allows high quality men to have more children

    To (re)state the obvious, in this context, "high quality" means "successful in Darwinian terms." More children and grandchildren, more of those men's genes being transmitted to posterity.

    The quality of the society that results is a different matter entirely -- a strong negative correlation.

    Replies: @Desiderius

  120. @anonymous
    @Sean


    Usually, white mother. That is important for cognitive ability. Several point advantage over black mother according to the Minnesota adoption study data.
     
    Does society have a duty to inform White women of the risk that mating with Blacks could cause their offspring’s cognitive ability to decline?

    Replies: @PaceLaw

    As if these white woman would care. Many of these women are just in the moment and/or hooking up and not thinking about future generations of offspring down the line.

  121. @RichardTaylor
    If the HBD worldview is correct, why isn't the Middle East the apex of civilization? For thousands of years, the smartest men had access to the most women, often dozens of wives.

    It should be the land of the most beautiful and intelligent people on earth.

    Meanwhile, White people, who tended to practice monogamy, actually became what many considered the most beautiful and intelligent. Bear in mind, the ancient White pagans were generally monogamous, while the ancient Jews (who were not that smart) and most other people practiced polygamy big time.

    Replies: @Some Guy, @Anonymous, @AnotherDad, @Kratoklastes, @Daniel Chieh

    If the HBD worldview is correct, why isn’t the Middle East the apex of civilization?

    Silly man… everyone knows that the apex of civilisation was to be found the hovels of rural Ukraine, Lithuania and Moldova in the early to mid 1800s.

    It used to be called the Pale of Settlement, and it had the largest concentration of Ashkenazim on the face of the Earth.

    Thus it was absolutely infested with people who were fully σ smarter than everyday humans. (This requires that you’re stupid enough to believe that IQ numbers generated by testing elite Red Sea Pedestrians in NY, yields statistics that apply to all Ashkenazim).

    Think of all the things that you would get from such a concentration of people with a mean IQ of 115: steam engines; powered flight; massive improvements in technology…

    I’m sure that all of those things – the fundamental preconditions for modern industrial society – originated in the Pale, and that the supposed ‘fact’ that the Pale was a backwards shithole full of superstitious primitive lice-ridden idiots who believed in witchcraft is just another Blood Libel.

    It defies belief that a group of people σ smarter than reg’lar homo sapiens sapiens, would underfperform as badly as the denizens of the Pale.

    • LOL: RichardTaylor
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @Kratoklastes

    Steam engines have a pretty funny story: people kept trying to make and fail at making gunpowder engines.

    Replies: @Joe Stalin

  122. @RichardTaylor
    If the HBD worldview is correct, why isn't the Middle East the apex of civilization? For thousands of years, the smartest men had access to the most women, often dozens of wives.

    It should be the land of the most beautiful and intelligent people on earth.

    Meanwhile, White people, who tended to practice monogamy, actually became what many considered the most beautiful and intelligent. Bear in mind, the ancient White pagans were generally monogamous, while the ancient Jews (who were not that smart) and most other people practiced polygamy big time.

    Replies: @Some Guy, @Anonymous, @AnotherDad, @Kratoklastes, @Daniel Chieh

    Probably has something to do with Bronze Age Collapse undermining a lot of setups there. It was the apex of civilization for a time: Sumer is the first civilization, the base 60 hour/minute and base 24 day tracks to them to this day.

  123. @Kratoklastes
    @RichardTaylor


    If the HBD worldview is correct, why isn’t the Middle East the apex of civilization?
     
    Silly man... everyone knows that the apex of civilisation was to be found the hovels of rural Ukraine, Lithuania and Moldova in the early to mid 1800s.

    It used to be called the Pale of Settlement, and it had the largest concentration of Ashkenazim on the face of the Earth.

    Thus it was absolutely infested with people who were fully σ smarter than everyday humans. (This requires that you're stupid enough to believe that IQ numbers generated by testing elite Red Sea Pedestrians in NY, yields statistics that apply to all Ashkenazim).

    Think of all the things that you would get from such a concentration of people with a mean IQ of 115: steam engines; powered flight; massive improvements in technology...

    I'm sure that all of those things - the fundamental preconditions for modern industrial society - originated in the Pale, and that the supposed 'fact' that the Pale was a backwards shithole full of superstitious primitive lice-ridden idiots who believed in witchcraft is just another Blood Libel.

    It defies belief that a group of people σ smarter than reg'lar homo sapiens sapiens, would underfperform as badly as the denizens of the Pale.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    Steam engines have a pretty funny story: people kept trying to make and fail at making gunpowder engines.

    • Replies: @Joe Stalin
    @Daniel Chieh


    Steam engines have a pretty funny story: people kept trying to make and fail at making gunpowder engines.
     
    To me, a water-cooled Vickers machine gun truly represents a gunpowder engine. Even the internal parts are reminiscent of an IC engine.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMinxb2j_P8
  124. @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @Ryan Andrews

    StDev.

    For example
    -white samples have mean age 9.93, StDev 0.63
    -Neuro Psy, the total distribution is normalized to a standard normal distr. with mean 0 and StDev 1

    Replies: @Ryan Andrews

    But then how can, for instance, Whites be .97 White with a standard deviation of .05, or .01 Black with a standard deviation of .02? You can’t be more than 100% White, or less than 0% Black.

    • Replies: @Peter Johnson
    @Ryan Andrews

    A nonzero standard deviation does not necessarily mean that the random variable (such as a proportion) can randomly be above 1.0 or below 0.0. The proportion varies randomly, but stays in that range. It seems from the Table shown that the Whites are mostly White but not entirely 100% for all of them, so there is some minor random variation in the proportion. Doesn't that make sense? It is a non-Normal random variable.

    , @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @Ryan Andrews

    SD is only thing that makes sense for that number I think.

    If you look on Table S4, 1st row, Financial Adversity has mean* 0 and SD 1, but the max value is only 0.42 (min is -6)

    *The median is 0.42 greater than the mean, so the distribution is negatively skewed
    https://imgur.com/a/Jvyx7PO

  125. anon[121] • Disclaimer says:
    @Hernan Pizzaro del Blanco
    @Some Guy

    The typical tribal member on American reservations has mostly Caucasian DNA. They have yet to find an American Indian who is less than 25% European. The average Cherokee tribe member is genetically 96% European. This is a big reason why Indian tribes oppose DNA studies. Tribal leaders are genetically more white than the average tribal member. Thus they strongly oppose DNA testing and are quite critical of DNA studies.

    The average white American in this study has more Indian DNA than Elizabeth Warren , the majority of white Americans can self-identify as Native American.

    Replies: @anon

    The typical tribal member on American reservations has mostly Caucasian DNA. They have yet to find an American Indian who is less than 25% European.

    Who is “they”, and did “they” spend any time with Tohono O’ Odham people?

    The average Cherokee tribe member is genetically 96% European.

    They are not even close to the only nation in the lower 48.

  126. @Desiderius
    @anon

    Cognitive dissonance is a bitch, but no reason turn against your adopted family or anything.

    Study's great. Sucks that people are suppressing this data. Need to defeat them by all means possible. Best way to do that is to understand how they came to be in a position of power over us in the first place.

    Dead brains do no science - rigorous or otherwise - nor those which do not manage to get themselves born. You can pretend that I'm missing Steve's point all you like but he knows that is not the case as do the other astute commenters here. They may disagree with me but pretense cuts no ice with them.

    Replies: @anon

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @anon

    Alright, just don't come crying to me when they parade you around with a stupid little sign.

  127. @AnotherDad
    @obwandiyag


    How do they control for environment?

    I’ll tell ya how. They don’t.
     

    Correct. This is straight up performance/genetics.


    I'll note though that one of the stakes that absolutely nails down genetics as being a primary contributor to B/W performance gaps in the US is that "controlling for environment" shows that the most "environmentally privileged" blacks--the very top income slice--barely outperform the bottom cohort of whites--the folks with single moms, chaotic/disorganized lives, crappy diets, mediocre schools, etc.--on cognitive measures and are comparable on homicide.

    Even if you got comparable cognitive/criminal performance across the races at comparable socio-economic levels, there would still be the question "Why are there so many more of X than Y at the top level and so many more of Y than X at the bottom?" I.e. it would still be an open question as to whether genetics is driving the socio-economic skew.

    But we do not even see that. What we see is that blacks doing very, very well economically, kids in the same high end suburban public schools or private schools showing much worse performance in school and criminal violence. It isn't that there is just much lower percentage of blacks at middle/upper-middle/elite income levels, it is that the ones there perform much more poorly--not a little bit, but drastically--than whites.

    This fact--much poorer black cognitive/criminal performance at a given socio-economic/income level--just eviscerates the "racism" explanation and points strongly at a predominantly genetic cause.

    Replies: @obwandiyag

    That’s not controlling for environment. That’s just more statistics. You don’t know what controlling for environment means.

    They don’t do it because it is impossible. And yet, the fact that environment could be behind everything obviates all their genetic certainty.

  128. @rec1man
    @Desiderius

    Very few brahmins and merchants converted to islam - most converts to islam, were low caste artisans, weavers etc

    Replies: @Desiderius

    Did the Mughals maintain the Caste System?

    In any event I’m using the term in a more figurative sense, though I should probably admit that I didn’t know that Khan was Muslim. If I’d put more thought into it of course it’s pretty obvious but I didn’t.

    • Replies: @rec1man
    @Desiderius

    Mughals used the caste system to incentivise the lower castes to convert to egalitarian islam

    , @Psun
    @Desiderius

    The caste system wasn't enforced by formal law but by custom and tradition. In any case Sadiq is a working class Pakistani liberal. The caste system isn't a good frame of analysis to understand him.

  129. @anon
    @Desiderius

    https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AnotherHastyAmericanindianhorse-max-1mb.gif

    Replies: @Desiderius

    Alright, just don’t come crying to me when they parade you around with a stupid little sign.

  130. @DanHessinMD
    There is a very interesting and potentially significant result here that is new to me and likely most readers. Most here are aware of racial differences in cognitive scores as well as the fact that kids inherit their cognitive ability from their parents. But the cognitive scores for admixture seem to show something interesting that I hadn't seen before.

    If one averages the black and white average cognitive score, one gets -0.26 (.26 standard deviations below the mean). But the actual average score for mixed black and white children is -0.13 (.13 standard deviations below the mean).

    If one averages the white and East Asian average cognitive score, one gets 0.41 (.41 standard deviations above the mean). But the actual average score for mixed white and East Asian children is 0.58 (.58 standard deviations above the mean).

    If one averages the white and South Asian average cognitive score, one gets 0.35. But the actual average score for mixed white and South Asian children is 0.84.

    If one averages the white and Native American average cognitive score, one gets -0.085. But the actual average score for mixed white and Native American children is 0.01.

    Is this a heterosis (hybrid vigor) effect?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosis

    Replies: @Some Guy, @Steve Sailer, @Some Guy, @Ralph L, @Ryan Andrews

    The thing that throws a wrench in the hybrid vigor hypothesis is the most numerous mixed race group is Hispanics, who appear to underperform their ancestral profile, at least in intellectually. Hard to say for sure what study suggests there because the Amerindian levels are so low with everyone that it is hard to get a good reading on where they stack-up here. Though, it may not show up intellectually, the fact that Hispanics live longer than Whites, despite being fatter and poorer, might be related to some kind of hybrid vigor.

    Offhand, I would say the only result here that hints at hybrid vigor is the White-Black result. Setting the White score at 100, then based on the weighting of admixtures alone, the Black-White mixed score should be only 92, but is instead 95. And even if the Blacks in these relationships are somewhat above average, I think it is pretty safe to say that the Whites in them tend to be below average.*

    The White-Asian finding points away from any hybrid vigor. It is safe to assume that the Whites in these relationships tend to have IQs above the Asian average of 105 or so. And the Asians are probably above their average too. Perhaps the kids scores are dragged down by their parents likely pushing forty at the time they were conceived, but I think that is broadly true of Asian alone children as well. Mulatto kids on the other hand, are probably born at a more appropriate parental age.

    The “White-Amerindian” kids are 90% White. These are just White kids who are a bit duller than their peers. When I was growing up, the White kids who claimed to be part Cherokee or whatever tended to be downscale, Hillbilly types.

    I can’t speak to the White-S. asian result, but then again, it’s forty kids. Maybe some mixes work better than others, maybe it’s a selected group, maybe the S. Asian alone score is dragged down by Muslims, and the S. Asians who mix with Whites skews more heavily Indian, though that is hard to square with S. Asian alone being wealthier than S.Asian-White. How do Indian-Black mixes in Trinidad and Togo fare vs. the local Blacks and Indians?

    *I recall maybe 7-8 years ago something like Pew or Brookings did a study of intermarriage by race and education. For Whites it balanced out overall (Whites in White-White marriages were equally likely to have a degree to Whites in White-non-White marriages), but for everyone else the mixers were more likely to have a degree. Whites in White-Asian marriages were more highly educated than the White average, Whites in White-Black marriages were less educated. Of course, a lot more White-Black reproducing is done outside of marriage than White-Asian. Which further supports my point that the White-Black score is the only one that might suggest hybrid vigor. I believe the study was of marriages between 2008-2011, so more or less the parents of these kids.

    • Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @Ryan Andrews

    The sample sizes for Asians are very small relative to whites. Its showing 14% Euro admixture for full-blooded E. Asians. That sounds way too high

    (7% Han Chinese have y-haplogroup N, versus 60% of Finns and 7% of Swedes)

    , @res
    @Ryan Andrews


    The thing that throws a wrench in the hybrid vigor hypothesis is the most numerous mixed race group is Hispanics, who appear to underperform their ancestral profile, at least in intellectually.
     
    Remember that hybrid vigor comes from dissimilar parents (causing more heterozygosity). It doesn't really apply to a well mixed population (which I think applies to Hispanics now).

    A good way to think about this is by considering the difference between F1 and F2 hybrids.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F1_hybrid#Disadvantages

    Replies: @Some Guy

  131. @Ryan Andrews
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    But then how can, for instance, Whites be .97 White with a standard deviation of .05, or .01 Black with a standard deviation of .02? You can't be more than 100% White, or less than 0% Black.

    Replies: @Peter Johnson, @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    A nonzero standard deviation does not necessarily mean that the random variable (such as a proportion) can randomly be above 1.0 or below 0.0. The proportion varies randomly, but stays in that range. It seems from the Table shown that the Whites are mostly White but not entirely 100% for all of them, so there is some minor random variation in the proportion. Doesn’t that make sense? It is a non-Normal random variable.

  132. @Ryan Andrews
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    But then how can, for instance, Whites be .97 White with a standard deviation of .05, or .01 Black with a standard deviation of .02? You can't be more than 100% White, or less than 0% Black.

    Replies: @Peter Johnson, @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    SD is only thing that makes sense for that number I think.

    If you look on Table S4, 1st row, Financial Adversity has mean* 0 and SD 1, but the max value is only 0.42 (min is -6)

    *The median is 0.42 greater than the mean, so the distribution is negatively skewed

    View post on imgur.com

  133. @Ryan Andrews
    @DanHessinMD

    The thing that throws a wrench in the hybrid vigor hypothesis is the most numerous mixed race group is Hispanics, who appear to underperform their ancestral profile, at least in intellectually. Hard to say for sure what study suggests there because the Amerindian levels are so low with everyone that it is hard to get a good reading on where they stack-up here. Though, it may not show up intellectually, the fact that Hispanics live longer than Whites, despite being fatter and poorer, might be related to some kind of hybrid vigor.

    Offhand, I would say the only result here that hints at hybrid vigor is the White-Black result. Setting the White score at 100, then based on the weighting of admixtures alone, the Black-White mixed score should be only 92, but is instead 95. And even if the Blacks in these relationships are somewhat above average, I think it is pretty safe to say that the Whites in them tend to be below average.*

    The White-Asian finding points away from any hybrid vigor. It is safe to assume that the Whites in these relationships tend to have IQs above the Asian average of 105 or so. And the Asians are probably above their average too. Perhaps the kids scores are dragged down by their parents likely pushing forty at the time they were conceived, but I think that is broadly true of Asian alone children as well. Mulatto kids on the other hand, are probably born at a more appropriate parental age.

    The "White-Amerindian" kids are 90% White. These are just White kids who are a bit duller than their peers. When I was growing up, the White kids who claimed to be part Cherokee or whatever tended to be downscale, Hillbilly types.

    I can't speak to the White-S. asian result, but then again, it's forty kids. Maybe some mixes work better than others, maybe it's a selected group, maybe the S. Asian alone score is dragged down by Muslims, and the S. Asians who mix with Whites skews more heavily Indian, though that is hard to square with S. Asian alone being wealthier than S.Asian-White. How do Indian-Black mixes in Trinidad and Togo fare vs. the local Blacks and Indians?

    *I recall maybe 7-8 years ago something like Pew or Brookings did a study of intermarriage by race and education. For Whites it balanced out overall (Whites in White-White marriages were equally likely to have a degree to Whites in White-non-White marriages), but for everyone else the mixers were more likely to have a degree. Whites in White-Asian marriages were more highly educated than the White average, Whites in White-Black marriages were less educated. Of course, a lot more White-Black reproducing is done outside of marriage than White-Asian. Which further supports my point that the White-Black score is the only one that might suggest hybrid vigor. I believe the study was of marriages between 2008-2011, so more or less the parents of these kids.

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms, @res

    The sample sizes for Asians are very small relative to whites. Its showing 14% Euro admixture for full-blooded E. Asians. That sounds way too high

    (7% Han Chinese have y-haplogroup N, versus 60% of Finns and 7% of Swedes)

  134. Two hundred years ago, Americans may have been more perceptive and honest than the current population. They had laws against miscegenation. Unfortunately, quoting Sailer, the issue is pitched against my cognitive ceiling.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @J


    Two hundred years ago, Americans may have been more perceptive and honest than the current population. They had laws against miscegenation.
     
    What is perceptive and honest about laws against miscegenation?
  135. @AnotherDad
    @RichardTaylor


    If the HBD worldview is correct, why isn’t the Middle East the apex of civilization? For thousands of years, the smartest men had access to the most women, often dozens of wives.

     

    This isn't some deep logical conundrum--at least not to me.

    Polygamy--more or less our barbarous natural state--indeed allows high quality men to have more children. However, that comes with basically zero social trust. Men are continuously in violent competition for the available women. Smart capable young men, must devote their energies entirely to becoming a "big man", beating out other men--including older men--to get women. Huge resources are spent fighting and mate guarding. And the trust boundary ends at family (and maybe not even there!).

    In contrast societies that are able to enforce some sort of "one per customer" monogamy norm can build social trust. Men can turn their energies to something other than fighting and mate guarding and actually ... build stuff ... like "civilization". (Note, i realize the top dogs in many societies may be polygamous. Not important. What's important is that the farmer, the blacksmith, the shipwright, the cooper, the clerk ... can all find a wife, enjoy life and have a stake in the future.) There is still plenty of eugenic sexual competition with more capable successful men getting better women, having/supporting more surviving children.

    And, of course, without continual sexual competition men can trust each other at larger scales which allows more effective armies/combat that actually defeat lower trust--and more fractious--polygamous societies.

    Most effective at milking the monogamy cow obviously ... Western Christian civilization.

    Replies: @ic1000

    > Polygamy–more or less our barbarous natural state–indeed allows high quality men to have more children

    To (re)state the obvious, in this context, “high quality” means “successful in Darwinian terms.” More children and grandchildren, more of those men’s genes being transmitted to posterity.

    The quality of the society that results is a different matter entirely — a strong negative correlation.

    • Agree: Desiderius
    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @ic1000

    Killing the goose.

    Many such cases.

    Mother Nature wants polygamy. Father God prefers Odysseus to Menelaus.

  136. @ic1000
    @AnotherDad

    > Polygamy–more or less our barbarous natural state–indeed allows high quality men to have more children

    To (re)state the obvious, in this context, "high quality" means "successful in Darwinian terms." More children and grandchildren, more of those men's genes being transmitted to posterity.

    The quality of the society that results is a different matter entirely -- a strong negative correlation.

    Replies: @Desiderius

    Killing the goose.

    Many such cases.

    Mother Nature wants polygamy. Father God prefers Odysseus to Menelaus.

  137. res says:
    @Ryan Andrews
    @DanHessinMD

    The thing that throws a wrench in the hybrid vigor hypothesis is the most numerous mixed race group is Hispanics, who appear to underperform their ancestral profile, at least in intellectually. Hard to say for sure what study suggests there because the Amerindian levels are so low with everyone that it is hard to get a good reading on where they stack-up here. Though, it may not show up intellectually, the fact that Hispanics live longer than Whites, despite being fatter and poorer, might be related to some kind of hybrid vigor.

    Offhand, I would say the only result here that hints at hybrid vigor is the White-Black result. Setting the White score at 100, then based on the weighting of admixtures alone, the Black-White mixed score should be only 92, but is instead 95. And even if the Blacks in these relationships are somewhat above average, I think it is pretty safe to say that the Whites in them tend to be below average.*

    The White-Asian finding points away from any hybrid vigor. It is safe to assume that the Whites in these relationships tend to have IQs above the Asian average of 105 or so. And the Asians are probably above their average too. Perhaps the kids scores are dragged down by their parents likely pushing forty at the time they were conceived, but I think that is broadly true of Asian alone children as well. Mulatto kids on the other hand, are probably born at a more appropriate parental age.

    The "White-Amerindian" kids are 90% White. These are just White kids who are a bit duller than their peers. When I was growing up, the White kids who claimed to be part Cherokee or whatever tended to be downscale, Hillbilly types.

    I can't speak to the White-S. asian result, but then again, it's forty kids. Maybe some mixes work better than others, maybe it's a selected group, maybe the S. Asian alone score is dragged down by Muslims, and the S. Asians who mix with Whites skews more heavily Indian, though that is hard to square with S. Asian alone being wealthier than S.Asian-White. How do Indian-Black mixes in Trinidad and Togo fare vs. the local Blacks and Indians?

    *I recall maybe 7-8 years ago something like Pew or Brookings did a study of intermarriage by race and education. For Whites it balanced out overall (Whites in White-White marriages were equally likely to have a degree to Whites in White-non-White marriages), but for everyone else the mixers were more likely to have a degree. Whites in White-Asian marriages were more highly educated than the White average, Whites in White-Black marriages were less educated. Of course, a lot more White-Black reproducing is done outside of marriage than White-Asian. Which further supports my point that the White-Black score is the only one that might suggest hybrid vigor. I believe the study was of marriages between 2008-2011, so more or less the parents of these kids.

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms, @res

    The thing that throws a wrench in the hybrid vigor hypothesis is the most numerous mixed race group is Hispanics, who appear to underperform their ancestral profile, at least in intellectually.

    Remember that hybrid vigor comes from dissimilar parents (causing more heterozygosity). It doesn’t really apply to a well mixed population (which I think applies to Hispanics now).

    A good way to think about this is by considering the difference between F1 and F2 hybrids.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F1_hybrid#Disadvantages

    • Replies: @Some Guy
    @res


    It doesn’t really apply to a well mixed population
     
    As someone who doesn't know much about this stuff, intuitively it would seem like if two F1 hybrids of the same type mated their offspring would still get 50% of the hybrid vigor effect.

    Half the the alleles would end up matched with alleles of the same ancestry, and the other half would end with alleles of different ancestry. In contrast to F1 hybrids who would have 100% of alleles matched to alleles of a different ancestry.

    African-Americans(ASW) and Barbadians(ACB) seem to have a higher heterozygosity ratio than other Sub-Saharan Africans despite being mixed with Europeans that have lower heterozygosity ratios in purebreeds:

    https://app.adntro.com/assets/images/ancestry/heterozygosity.svg

    I believe the Latin groups don't have super-high heterozygosity because Amerindians have such low heterozygosity due to bottlenecking, so they should benefit the most from hybrid vigor.

    Replies: @res

  138. @res
    @Ryan Andrews


    The thing that throws a wrench in the hybrid vigor hypothesis is the most numerous mixed race group is Hispanics, who appear to underperform their ancestral profile, at least in intellectually.
     
    Remember that hybrid vigor comes from dissimilar parents (causing more heterozygosity). It doesn't really apply to a well mixed population (which I think applies to Hispanics now).

    A good way to think about this is by considering the difference between F1 and F2 hybrids.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F1_hybrid#Disadvantages

    Replies: @Some Guy

    It doesn’t really apply to a well mixed population

    As someone who doesn’t know much about this stuff, intuitively it would seem like if two F1 hybrids of the same type mated their offspring would still get 50% of the hybrid vigor effect.

    Half the the alleles would end up matched with alleles of the same ancestry, and the other half would end with alleles of different ancestry. In contrast to F1 hybrids who would have 100% of alleles matched to alleles of a different ancestry.

    African-Americans(ASW) and Barbadians(ACB) seem to have a higher heterozygosity ratio than other Sub-Saharan Africans despite being mixed with Europeans that have lower heterozygosity ratios in purebreeds:

    https://app.adntro.com/assets/images/ancestry/heterozygosity.svg

    I believe the Latin groups don’t have super-high heterozygosity because Amerindians have such low heterozygosity due to bottlenecking, so they should benefit the most from hybrid vigor.

    • Replies: @res
    @Some Guy


    intuitively it would seem like if two F1 hybrids of the same type mated their offspring would still get 50% of the hybrid vigor effect.
     
    The problem is that it averages out across all SNPs in unpredictable ways. Since the F1 hybrids are presumably heterozygous for all of the traits of interest the F2 generation will have a classic 1/4 aa 1/2 aA and 1/4 AA inheritance pattern. So on average I think your intuition is on target, the problem is the variability.

    I think a big part of the reason for the popularity of F1 hybrids is that they DON'T breed true. Hence you need to buy new seeds or plants each year. Great for the manufacturers. Next most important being their consistency. And following that (I think) is improved performance (see Wiki for discussion of reasons for that).

    This becomes more complicated for human populations which are not uniformly homozygous.

    I think your focus on heterozygosity is the right way to look at it. And your ASW/ACB point is well made.

    I don't know as much about all of this as I would like, this Wikipedia page has some good discussion.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosis

    The way I would summarize my view is this.
    - Additive genetics accounts for most of genetic variance. In total on average which alleles you have is more important than whether or not they are homozygous or heterozygous.
    - Inbreeding is bad because it allows highly deleterious recessive alleles to pair up at higher frequencies. This kind of homozygosity is BAD.
    - Heterozygosity is a mixed bag. It is good when it serves as a marker for lack of inbreeding, and also good when there is heterozygote advantage for a given SNP. It is not good when it corresponds to high frequency of less desirable alleles. Consider what it would look like to compare those heterozygoisty measures in your graphic to various other metrics (e.g. GDP, intelligence) of the associated populations.

    I'm interested in your further take on this. Despite your disavowal of knowledge, I thought your response to my overly simplistic comment was excellent.

    Replies: @Some Guy

  139. @J
    Two hundred years ago, Americans may have been more perceptive and honest than the current population. They had laws against miscegenation. Unfortunately, quoting Sailer, the issue is pitched against my cognitive ceiling.

    Replies: @Anon

    Two hundred years ago, Americans may have been more perceptive and honest than the current population. They had laws against miscegenation.

    What is perceptive and honest about laws against miscegenation?

  140. @Desiderius
    @rec1man

    Did the Mughals maintain the Caste System?

    In any event I'm using the term in a more figurative sense, though I should probably admit that I didn't know that Khan was Muslim. If I'd put more thought into it of course it's pretty obvious but I didn't.

    Replies: @rec1man, @Psun

    Mughals used the caste system to incentivise the lower castes to convert to egalitarian islam

  141. @Daniel Chieh
    @Kratoklastes

    Steam engines have a pretty funny story: people kept trying to make and fail at making gunpowder engines.

    Replies: @Joe Stalin

    Steam engines have a pretty funny story: people kept trying to make and fail at making gunpowder engines.

    To me, a water-cooled Vickers machine gun truly represents a gunpowder engine. Even the internal parts are reminiscent of an IC engine.

  142. Anonymous[108] • Disclaimer says:
    @ThreeCranes
    @ThreeCranes

    The "deep wisdom" of the tree which alters the soil around it so as to enhance the likelihood of the survival of its offspring finds its counterpart in the black women who today loudly clamor for change in the structure of American politics and social life. Tearing down monuments and decrying white privilege is simply altering the soil in which her offspring will grow up, giving them a better chance of survival. The black mother would as soon see the complete destruction of white civilization for this would guarantee that her brood would stand a more than even chance in the battle of life against what she perceives as weaker (because less technically proficient) racial opponents.

    All of this happens unconsciously. It is instinctual.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    It’s not just black mothers that do this, but white mothers of mixed children. They become advocates of every cause that will reduce the numbers and influence of white people. They want to change society so that their children will not be outnumbered and disadvantaged.

  143. @Steve Sailer
    @Some Guy

    Eskimos don’t seem all that impressive.

    I'm impressed. I wouldn't last very long in the Arctic.

    Replies: @kaganovitch, @J

    I stay unimpressed. Finns, Russians, Americans, etc. had no special problems in appropriating and colonizing the Arctic. Especially where there was gold or whales for oil.

  144. @RichardTaylor
    @Anonymous

    Well that's an interesting study. But the desirability of blonde women seems awfully widespread in real life. If you look online for anything related to pretty women, White women tower above all others, followed by the Japanese.

    But either way, we still have the problem that the most polygamous areas throughout history did not produce the most attractive women.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @e

    Could be the “selection” of Asian women is not because the physical traits are more desirous than those of the blond but because the Asian woman suggests subservience, passivity, traits in women valued by high % of males.

  145. res says:
    @Some Guy
    @res


    It doesn’t really apply to a well mixed population
     
    As someone who doesn't know much about this stuff, intuitively it would seem like if two F1 hybrids of the same type mated their offspring would still get 50% of the hybrid vigor effect.

    Half the the alleles would end up matched with alleles of the same ancestry, and the other half would end with alleles of different ancestry. In contrast to F1 hybrids who would have 100% of alleles matched to alleles of a different ancestry.

    African-Americans(ASW) and Barbadians(ACB) seem to have a higher heterozygosity ratio than other Sub-Saharan Africans despite being mixed with Europeans that have lower heterozygosity ratios in purebreeds:

    https://app.adntro.com/assets/images/ancestry/heterozygosity.svg

    I believe the Latin groups don't have super-high heterozygosity because Amerindians have such low heterozygosity due to bottlenecking, so they should benefit the most from hybrid vigor.

    Replies: @res

    intuitively it would seem like if two F1 hybrids of the same type mated their offspring would still get 50% of the hybrid vigor effect.

    The problem is that it averages out across all SNPs in unpredictable ways. Since the F1 hybrids are presumably heterozygous for all of the traits of interest the F2 generation will have a classic 1/4 aa 1/2 aA and 1/4 AA inheritance pattern. So on average I think your intuition is on target, the problem is the variability.

    I think a big part of the reason for the popularity of F1 hybrids is that they DON’T breed true. Hence you need to buy new seeds or plants each year. Great for the manufacturers. Next most important being their consistency. And following that (I think) is improved performance (see Wiki for discussion of reasons for that).

    This becomes more complicated for human populations which are not uniformly homozygous.

    I think your focus on heterozygosity is the right way to look at it. And your ASW/ACB point is well made.

    I don’t know as much about all of this as I would like, this Wikipedia page has some good discussion.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosis

    The way I would summarize my view is this.
    – Additive genetics accounts for most of genetic variance. In total on average which alleles you have is more important than whether or not they are homozygous or heterozygous.
    – Inbreeding is bad because it allows highly deleterious recessive alleles to pair up at higher frequencies. This kind of homozygosity is BAD.
    – Heterozygosity is a mixed bag. It is good when it serves as a marker for lack of inbreeding, and also good when there is heterozygote advantage for a given SNP. It is not good when it corresponds to high frequency of less desirable alleles. Consider what it would look like to compare those heterozygoisty measures in your graphic to various other metrics (e.g. GDP, intelligence) of the associated populations.

    I’m interested in your further take on this. Despite your disavowal of knowledge, I thought your response to my overly simplistic comment was excellent.

    • Thanks: Some Guy
    • Replies: @Some Guy
    @res


    the problem is the variability.
     
    Not sure why that's a problem, greater variability could lead to greater chance of producing exceptional people right? The difference between humans and plants is that one exceptional human can improve outcomes for humans in general, whereas one exceptional plant finds it terribly difficult to inspire his comrades towards glory through either words or deeds.

    Consider what it would look like to compare those heterozygoisty measures in your graphic to various other metrics (e.g. GDP, intelligence) of the associated populations.
     
    Yes, heterozygote advantage can't overcome strong differential selection on a trait. However, it does make me wonder how mixed high IQ people/races will do, F1 and beyond. These(presumably mostly F1) White-East Asians(same IQ as East Asians but presumably less conformist) and white-south Asians will probably do very well. Not saying hybrid vigor is the primary cause of these scores, but it might also boost health, appearance etc.

    Inbreeding is bad because it allows highly deleterious recessive alleles to pair up at higher frequencies.
     
    Yes, and inbreeding should also weed out those alleles from the gene pool, which is bad if they impart a heterozygote advantage.

    Something I didn't intuitively grasp is that out-breeding depression could get progressively worse over generations, although I don't know if we've been separated long enough for these "coadapted gene complexes" to differ so much between populations:


    Unless there is strong selective pressure, outbreeding depression can increase in further generations as coadapted gene complexes are broken apart without the forging of new coadapted gene complexes to take their place. If the outcrossing is limited and populations are large enough, selective pressure acting on each generation can restore fitness. Unless the F1 hybrid generation is sterile or very low fitness, selection will act in each generation using the increased diversity to adapt to the environment.[6] This can lead to recovery in fitness to baseline, and sometimes even greater fitness than original parental types in that environment.[7]
     
    - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outbreeding_depression#Mechanisms_for_generating_outbreeding_depression

    I wonder if there's any quantification of how much stronger selection is in more genetically diverse populations. Will African-Americans become super-breeders before Europeans?

    Another thing I'm thinking about is that for non-F1 hybrids, the admixture-to-heterozygosity ratio presumably isn't linear. For example, in African-Americans with 20% European admixture, only 0.2 * 0.2 = 4% of their genome should consist of matching European alleles. In F2 50-50 hybrids that number would be 25%. Considering the low European heterozygosity, these hybrids might not have higher heterozygosity than pure blacks or slightly less mixed blacks.

    Replies: @res

  146. @res
    @Some Guy


    intuitively it would seem like if two F1 hybrids of the same type mated their offspring would still get 50% of the hybrid vigor effect.
     
    The problem is that it averages out across all SNPs in unpredictable ways. Since the F1 hybrids are presumably heterozygous for all of the traits of interest the F2 generation will have a classic 1/4 aa 1/2 aA and 1/4 AA inheritance pattern. So on average I think your intuition is on target, the problem is the variability.

    I think a big part of the reason for the popularity of F1 hybrids is that they DON'T breed true. Hence you need to buy new seeds or plants each year. Great for the manufacturers. Next most important being their consistency. And following that (I think) is improved performance (see Wiki for discussion of reasons for that).

    This becomes more complicated for human populations which are not uniformly homozygous.

    I think your focus on heterozygosity is the right way to look at it. And your ASW/ACB point is well made.

    I don't know as much about all of this as I would like, this Wikipedia page has some good discussion.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosis

    The way I would summarize my view is this.
    - Additive genetics accounts for most of genetic variance. In total on average which alleles you have is more important than whether or not they are homozygous or heterozygous.
    - Inbreeding is bad because it allows highly deleterious recessive alleles to pair up at higher frequencies. This kind of homozygosity is BAD.
    - Heterozygosity is a mixed bag. It is good when it serves as a marker for lack of inbreeding, and also good when there is heterozygote advantage for a given SNP. It is not good when it corresponds to high frequency of less desirable alleles. Consider what it would look like to compare those heterozygoisty measures in your graphic to various other metrics (e.g. GDP, intelligence) of the associated populations.

    I'm interested in your further take on this. Despite your disavowal of knowledge, I thought your response to my overly simplistic comment was excellent.

    Replies: @Some Guy

    the problem is the variability.

    Not sure why that’s a problem, greater variability could lead to greater chance of producing exceptional people right? The difference between humans and plants is that one exceptional human can improve outcomes for humans in general, whereas one exceptional plant finds it terribly difficult to inspire his comrades towards glory through either words or deeds.

    Consider what it would look like to compare those heterozygoisty measures in your graphic to various other metrics (e.g. GDP, intelligence) of the associated populations.

    Yes, heterozygote advantage can’t overcome strong differential selection on a trait. However, it does make me wonder how mixed high IQ people/races will do, F1 and beyond. These(presumably mostly F1) White-East Asians(same IQ as East Asians but presumably less conformist) and white-south Asians will probably do very well. Not saying hybrid vigor is the primary cause of these scores, but it might also boost health, appearance etc.

    Inbreeding is bad because it allows highly deleterious recessive alleles to pair up at higher frequencies.

    Yes, and inbreeding should also weed out those alleles from the gene pool, which is bad if they impart a heterozygote advantage.

    Something I didn’t intuitively grasp is that out-breeding depression could get progressively worse over generations, although I don’t know if we’ve been separated long enough for these “coadapted gene complexes” to differ so much between populations:

    Unless there is strong selective pressure, outbreeding depression can increase in further generations as coadapted gene complexes are broken apart without the forging of new coadapted gene complexes to take their place. If the outcrossing is limited and populations are large enough, selective pressure acting on each generation can restore fitness. Unless the F1 hybrid generation is sterile or very low fitness, selection will act in each generation using the increased diversity to adapt to the environment.[6] This can lead to recovery in fitness to baseline, and sometimes even greater fitness than original parental types in that environment.[7]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outbreeding_depression#Mechanisms_for_generating_outbreeding_depression

    I wonder if there’s any quantification of how much stronger selection is in more genetically diverse populations. Will African-Americans become super-breeders before Europeans?

    Another thing I’m thinking about is that for non-F1 hybrids, the admixture-to-heterozygosity ratio presumably isn’t linear. For example, in African-Americans with 20% European admixture, only 0.2 * 0.2 = 4% of their genome should consist of matching European alleles. In F2 50-50 hybrids that number would be 25%. Considering the low European heterozygosity, these hybrids might not have higher heterozygosity than pure blacks or slightly less mixed blacks.

    • Replies: @res
    @Some Guy


    Not sure why that’s a problem, greater variability could lead to greater chance of producing exceptional people right?
     
    You alluded to one of the reasons later in your comment. Coadapted gene complexes. Beyond that, I think you make a good point. But one problem with that is in an era with minimal selection (consider how long average lifespans are) variability can be dangerous. Especially if the less able are out-reproducing the able. This seems to be our current world. I think you allude to this later in your comment "how much stronger selection is in more genetically diverse populations."

    Yes, heterozygote advantage can’t overcome strong differential selection on a trait. However, it does make me wonder how mixed high IQ people/races will do, F1 and beyond. These(presumably mostly F1) White-East Asians(same IQ as East Asians but presumably less conformist) and white-south Asians will probably do very well. Not saying hybrid vigor is the primary cause of these scores, but it might also boost health, appearance etc.
     
    That's an interesting question. I would expect them to do well over time in a natural environment with more selective pressure, but less sure if we just assume random survival. I suspect a significant portion of the advantages we see for mixed race individuals in the US has to do with the particular individuals involved. It varies by combo, but I think for many of those cases the individual parents tend to be above average for their groups. Haven't ever seen good data on that though.

    Another thing I’m thinking about is that for non-F1 hybrids, the admixture-to-heterozygosity ratio presumably isn’t linear. For example, in African-Americans with 20% European admixture, only 0.2 * 0.2 = 4% of their genome should consist of matching European alleles. In F2 50-50 hybrids that number would be 25%. Considering the low European heterozygosity, these hybrids might not have higher heterozygosity than pure blacks or slightly less mixed blacks.
     
    Another interesting point. I think this 2019 preprint (which has full text) speaks to it. I haven't had time to really go through it yet.
    On the heterozygosity of an admixed population
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/820241v1.full

    Replies: @Some Guy

  147. @James Speaks
    @Anonymous


    The most beautiful women are considered East Asian and East-Eurasian mixes, not European women. White women have a masculine look.
     
    I disagree. Marina looks perfect to me. It's probably that Celt (actual Welsh Celt) / Greek mixture.

    https://celebvogue.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Marina-and-the-Diamonds-1024x768.jpg

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Highlander

    Sorry, try this:

    • Replies: @James Speaks
    @Highlander

    Naw. If you want to go the blonde route ...
    https://iv1.lisimg.com/image/428529/343full-krista-kalmus.jpg

    , @James Speaks
    @Highlander

    ... or ...
    https://i0.wp.com/theblast.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/0212-elin.jpg?fit=1024%2C768&ssl=1

    , @James Speaks
    @Highlander

    I still prefer brunettes.
    https://youtu.be/-gDmsMbsqSQ

    , @reiner Tor
    @Highlander

    No woman can be perfect without the perfect party badge:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/Unity_Mitford_%281914-1948%29.jpg

  148. @Highlander
    @James Speaks

    Sorry, try this:

    https://assets.vogue.com/photos/5891567b85b395961847350e/master/w_1600,c_limit/01-princess-grace-kelly-prince-rainier-monaco-wedding.jpg

    Replies: @James Speaks, @James Speaks, @James Speaks, @reiner Tor

    Naw. If you want to go the blonde route …

  149. @Highlander
    @James Speaks

    Sorry, try this:

    https://assets.vogue.com/photos/5891567b85b395961847350e/master/w_1600,c_limit/01-princess-grace-kelly-prince-rainier-monaco-wedding.jpg

    Replies: @James Speaks, @James Speaks, @James Speaks, @reiner Tor

  150. @Highlander
    @James Speaks

    Sorry, try this:

    https://assets.vogue.com/photos/5891567b85b395961847350e/master/w_1600,c_limit/01-princess-grace-kelly-prince-rainier-monaco-wedding.jpg

    Replies: @James Speaks, @James Speaks, @James Speaks, @reiner Tor

    I still prefer brunettes.

  151. @Highlander
    @James Speaks

    Sorry, try this:

    https://assets.vogue.com/photos/5891567b85b395961847350e/master/w_1600,c_limit/01-princess-grace-kelly-prince-rainier-monaco-wedding.jpg

    Replies: @James Speaks, @James Speaks, @James Speaks, @reiner Tor

    No woman can be perfect without the perfect party badge:

  152. res says:
    @Some Guy
    @res


    the problem is the variability.
     
    Not sure why that's a problem, greater variability could lead to greater chance of producing exceptional people right? The difference between humans and plants is that one exceptional human can improve outcomes for humans in general, whereas one exceptional plant finds it terribly difficult to inspire his comrades towards glory through either words or deeds.

    Consider what it would look like to compare those heterozygoisty measures in your graphic to various other metrics (e.g. GDP, intelligence) of the associated populations.
     
    Yes, heterozygote advantage can't overcome strong differential selection on a trait. However, it does make me wonder how mixed high IQ people/races will do, F1 and beyond. These(presumably mostly F1) White-East Asians(same IQ as East Asians but presumably less conformist) and white-south Asians will probably do very well. Not saying hybrid vigor is the primary cause of these scores, but it might also boost health, appearance etc.

    Inbreeding is bad because it allows highly deleterious recessive alleles to pair up at higher frequencies.
     
    Yes, and inbreeding should also weed out those alleles from the gene pool, which is bad if they impart a heterozygote advantage.

    Something I didn't intuitively grasp is that out-breeding depression could get progressively worse over generations, although I don't know if we've been separated long enough for these "coadapted gene complexes" to differ so much between populations:


    Unless there is strong selective pressure, outbreeding depression can increase in further generations as coadapted gene complexes are broken apart without the forging of new coadapted gene complexes to take their place. If the outcrossing is limited and populations are large enough, selective pressure acting on each generation can restore fitness. Unless the F1 hybrid generation is sterile or very low fitness, selection will act in each generation using the increased diversity to adapt to the environment.[6] This can lead to recovery in fitness to baseline, and sometimes even greater fitness than original parental types in that environment.[7]
     
    - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outbreeding_depression#Mechanisms_for_generating_outbreeding_depression

    I wonder if there's any quantification of how much stronger selection is in more genetically diverse populations. Will African-Americans become super-breeders before Europeans?

    Another thing I'm thinking about is that for non-F1 hybrids, the admixture-to-heterozygosity ratio presumably isn't linear. For example, in African-Americans with 20% European admixture, only 0.2 * 0.2 = 4% of their genome should consist of matching European alleles. In F2 50-50 hybrids that number would be 25%. Considering the low European heterozygosity, these hybrids might not have higher heterozygosity than pure blacks or slightly less mixed blacks.

    Replies: @res

    Not sure why that’s a problem, greater variability could lead to greater chance of producing exceptional people right?

    You alluded to one of the reasons later in your comment. Coadapted gene complexes. Beyond that, I think you make a good point. But one problem with that is in an era with minimal selection (consider how long average lifespans are) variability can be dangerous. Especially if the less able are out-reproducing the able. This seems to be our current world. I think you allude to this later in your comment “how much stronger selection is in more genetically diverse populations.”

    Yes, heterozygote advantage can’t overcome strong differential selection on a trait. However, it does make me wonder how mixed high IQ people/races will do, F1 and beyond. These(presumably mostly F1) White-East Asians(same IQ as East Asians but presumably less conformist) and white-south Asians will probably do very well. Not saying hybrid vigor is the primary cause of these scores, but it might also boost health, appearance etc.

    That’s an interesting question. I would expect them to do well over time in a natural environment with more selective pressure, but less sure if we just assume random survival. I suspect a significant portion of the advantages we see for mixed race individuals in the US has to do with the particular individuals involved. It varies by combo, but I think for many of those cases the individual parents tend to be above average for their groups. Haven’t ever seen good data on that though.

    Another thing I’m thinking about is that for non-F1 hybrids, the admixture-to-heterozygosity ratio presumably isn’t linear. For example, in African-Americans with 20% European admixture, only 0.2 * 0.2 = 4% of their genome should consist of matching European alleles. In F2 50-50 hybrids that number would be 25%. Considering the low European heterozygosity, these hybrids might not have higher heterozygosity than pure blacks or slightly less mixed blacks.

    Another interesting point. I think this 2019 preprint (which has full text) speaks to it. I haven’t had time to really go through it yet.
    On the heterozygosity of an admixed population
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/820241v1.full

    • Replies: @Some Guy
    @res


    You alluded to one of the reasons later in your comment. Coadapted gene complexes.
     
    Well, greater variability in how damaged those gene complexes are wouldn't necessarily be worse than a more even spread in the damage.

    But one problem with that is in an era with minimal selection (consider how long average lifespans are) variability can be dangerous. Especially if the less able are out-reproducing the able.
     
    Maybe, but the increased variability in heterozygosity is a form of non-additive heritability isn't it? And that basically resets every generation. If the less able are out-reproducing the able, more selection on non-additive genetics would be a good thing since it doesn't last, no?

    I suspect a significant portion of the advantages we see for mixed race individuals in the US has to do with the particular individuals involved. It varies by combo, but I think for many of those cases the individual parents tend to be above average for their groups.
     
    Indeed. The SES of white-South Asian children is .16 SD above the average of the two source populations, however the IQ is .48 SD higher.

    For white-East Asian those numbers are .18 SD and .17 SD.

    Tentative conclusion: White-East Asian IQs can be fully explained by selective mating, but for White-South Asians IQs that's only part of the explanation. Of course these are small samples.


    That paper is too complicated for me to get into, but this graph from it seems to illustrate the concept:

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/10/28/820241/F1.large.jpg?width=800&height=600&carousel=1

    My amateur interpretation: for two populations with low genetic distance, the heterozygosity of the mixed population is just an average of the two populations, even if they differ a lot in level of heterozygosity(How can two population have low genetic distance and yet differ a lot in heterozygosity? I'm guessing due to inbreeding/bottleneck in one population, like the Amish compared to regular whites, but I don't know.).

    However, for populations significantly different from each other, the heterozygosity peaks close to 50% admixture, slightly on the side of the more heterozygous population.

    Replies: @Peter Johnson, @res

  153. @res
    @Some Guy


    Not sure why that’s a problem, greater variability could lead to greater chance of producing exceptional people right?
     
    You alluded to one of the reasons later in your comment. Coadapted gene complexes. Beyond that, I think you make a good point. But one problem with that is in an era with minimal selection (consider how long average lifespans are) variability can be dangerous. Especially if the less able are out-reproducing the able. This seems to be our current world. I think you allude to this later in your comment "how much stronger selection is in more genetically diverse populations."

    Yes, heterozygote advantage can’t overcome strong differential selection on a trait. However, it does make me wonder how mixed high IQ people/races will do, F1 and beyond. These(presumably mostly F1) White-East Asians(same IQ as East Asians but presumably less conformist) and white-south Asians will probably do very well. Not saying hybrid vigor is the primary cause of these scores, but it might also boost health, appearance etc.
     
    That's an interesting question. I would expect them to do well over time in a natural environment with more selective pressure, but less sure if we just assume random survival. I suspect a significant portion of the advantages we see for mixed race individuals in the US has to do with the particular individuals involved. It varies by combo, but I think for many of those cases the individual parents tend to be above average for their groups. Haven't ever seen good data on that though.

    Another thing I’m thinking about is that for non-F1 hybrids, the admixture-to-heterozygosity ratio presumably isn’t linear. For example, in African-Americans with 20% European admixture, only 0.2 * 0.2 = 4% of their genome should consist of matching European alleles. In F2 50-50 hybrids that number would be 25%. Considering the low European heterozygosity, these hybrids might not have higher heterozygosity than pure blacks or slightly less mixed blacks.
     
    Another interesting point. I think this 2019 preprint (which has full text) speaks to it. I haven't had time to really go through it yet.
    On the heterozygosity of an admixed population
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/820241v1.full

    Replies: @Some Guy

    You alluded to one of the reasons later in your comment. Coadapted gene complexes.

    Well, greater variability in how damaged those gene complexes are wouldn’t necessarily be worse than a more even spread in the damage.

    But one problem with that is in an era with minimal selection (consider how long average lifespans are) variability can be dangerous. Especially if the less able are out-reproducing the able.

    Maybe, but the increased variability in heterozygosity is a form of non-additive heritability isn’t it? And that basically resets every generation. If the less able are out-reproducing the able, more selection on non-additive genetics would be a good thing since it doesn’t last, no?

    I suspect a significant portion of the advantages we see for mixed race individuals in the US has to do with the particular individuals involved. It varies by combo, but I think for many of those cases the individual parents tend to be above average for their groups.

    Indeed. The SES of white-South Asian children is .16 SD above the average of the two source populations, however the IQ is .48 SD higher.

    For white-East Asian those numbers are .18 SD and .17 SD.

    Tentative conclusion: White-East Asian IQs can be fully explained by selective mating, but for White-South Asians IQs that’s only part of the explanation. Of course these are small samples.

    That paper is too complicated for me to get into, but this graph from it seems to illustrate the concept:

    My amateur interpretation: for two populations with low genetic distance, the heterozygosity of the mixed population is just an average of the two populations, even if they differ a lot in level of heterozygosity(How can two population have low genetic distance and yet differ a lot in heterozygosity? I’m guessing due to inbreeding/bottleneck in one population, like the Amish compared to regular whites, but I don’t know.).

    However, for populations significantly different from each other, the heterozygosity peaks close to 50% admixture, slightly on the side of the more heterozygous population.

    • Replies: @Peter Johnson
    @Some Guy

    "That paper is too complicated for me to get into, but this graph from it seems to illustrate the concept:"

    To what paper are you referring?

    Replies: @Some Guy

    , @res
    @Some Guy


    Well, greater variability in how damaged those gene complexes are wouldn’t necessarily be worse than a more even spread in the damage.
     
    Not sure about that. It depends on the magnitude of damage caused by breaking up the gene complexes (consider hip width and brain size traits and what happens if you get big brains and small hips in a hybrid) compared to the damage caused by additive effects.

    Maybe, but the increased variability in heterozygosity is a form of non-additive heritability isn’t it? And that basically resets every generation. If the less able are out-reproducing the able, more selection on non-additive genetics would be a good thing since it doesn’t last, no?
     
    Does heterozygosity reset as a whole? Inbreeding depression resets because you break up homozygous low frequency deleterious recessives. I guess one way to look at is to compare offspring of aa and AA (all aA) with offspring of two aA (1 aa, 2 aA, 1 AA).

    My amateur interpretation: for two populations with low genetic distance, the heterozygosity of the mixed population is just an average of the two populations, even if they differ a lot in level of heterozygosity(How can two population have low genetic distance and yet differ a lot in heterozygosity? I’m guessing due to inbreeding/bottleneck in one population, like the Amish compared to regular whites, but I don’t know.). However, for populations significantly different from each other, the heterozygosity peaks close to 50% admixture, slightly on the side of the more heterozygous population.
     
    Seems reasonable to me, but would be good to confirm with someone like Razib.

    P.S. Sorry I did not have the time/focus available to give a better response.

    Replies: @Some Guy

  154. @Desiderius
    @rec1man

    Did the Mughals maintain the Caste System?

    In any event I'm using the term in a more figurative sense, though I should probably admit that I didn't know that Khan was Muslim. If I'd put more thought into it of course it's pretty obvious but I didn't.

    Replies: @rec1man, @Psun

    The caste system wasn’t enforced by formal law but by custom and tradition. In any case Sadiq is a working class Pakistani liberal. The caste system isn’t a good frame of analysis to understand him.

  155. @Some Guy
    @res


    You alluded to one of the reasons later in your comment. Coadapted gene complexes.
     
    Well, greater variability in how damaged those gene complexes are wouldn't necessarily be worse than a more even spread in the damage.

    But one problem with that is in an era with minimal selection (consider how long average lifespans are) variability can be dangerous. Especially if the less able are out-reproducing the able.
     
    Maybe, but the increased variability in heterozygosity is a form of non-additive heritability isn't it? And that basically resets every generation. If the less able are out-reproducing the able, more selection on non-additive genetics would be a good thing since it doesn't last, no?

    I suspect a significant portion of the advantages we see for mixed race individuals in the US has to do with the particular individuals involved. It varies by combo, but I think for many of those cases the individual parents tend to be above average for their groups.
     
    Indeed. The SES of white-South Asian children is .16 SD above the average of the two source populations, however the IQ is .48 SD higher.

    For white-East Asian those numbers are .18 SD and .17 SD.

    Tentative conclusion: White-East Asian IQs can be fully explained by selective mating, but for White-South Asians IQs that's only part of the explanation. Of course these are small samples.


    That paper is too complicated for me to get into, but this graph from it seems to illustrate the concept:

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/10/28/820241/F1.large.jpg?width=800&height=600&carousel=1

    My amateur interpretation: for two populations with low genetic distance, the heterozygosity of the mixed population is just an average of the two populations, even if they differ a lot in level of heterozygosity(How can two population have low genetic distance and yet differ a lot in heterozygosity? I'm guessing due to inbreeding/bottleneck in one population, like the Amish compared to regular whites, but I don't know.).

    However, for populations significantly different from each other, the heterozygosity peaks close to 50% admixture, slightly on the side of the more heterozygous population.

    Replies: @Peter Johnson, @res

    “That paper is too complicated for me to get into, but this graph from it seems to illustrate the concept:”

    To what paper are you referring?

    • Replies: @Some Guy
    @Peter Johnson

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/820241v1.full

  156. @Peter Johnson
    @Some Guy

    "That paper is too complicated for me to get into, but this graph from it seems to illustrate the concept:"

    To what paper are you referring?

    Replies: @Some Guy

    • Thanks: Peter Johnson
  157. res says:
    @Some Guy
    @res


    You alluded to one of the reasons later in your comment. Coadapted gene complexes.
     
    Well, greater variability in how damaged those gene complexes are wouldn't necessarily be worse than a more even spread in the damage.

    But one problem with that is in an era with minimal selection (consider how long average lifespans are) variability can be dangerous. Especially if the less able are out-reproducing the able.
     
    Maybe, but the increased variability in heterozygosity is a form of non-additive heritability isn't it? And that basically resets every generation. If the less able are out-reproducing the able, more selection on non-additive genetics would be a good thing since it doesn't last, no?

    I suspect a significant portion of the advantages we see for mixed race individuals in the US has to do with the particular individuals involved. It varies by combo, but I think for many of those cases the individual parents tend to be above average for their groups.
     
    Indeed. The SES of white-South Asian children is .16 SD above the average of the two source populations, however the IQ is .48 SD higher.

    For white-East Asian those numbers are .18 SD and .17 SD.

    Tentative conclusion: White-East Asian IQs can be fully explained by selective mating, but for White-South Asians IQs that's only part of the explanation. Of course these are small samples.


    That paper is too complicated for me to get into, but this graph from it seems to illustrate the concept:

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/10/28/820241/F1.large.jpg?width=800&height=600&carousel=1

    My amateur interpretation: for two populations with low genetic distance, the heterozygosity of the mixed population is just an average of the two populations, even if they differ a lot in level of heterozygosity(How can two population have low genetic distance and yet differ a lot in heterozygosity? I'm guessing due to inbreeding/bottleneck in one population, like the Amish compared to regular whites, but I don't know.).

    However, for populations significantly different from each other, the heterozygosity peaks close to 50% admixture, slightly on the side of the more heterozygous population.

    Replies: @Peter Johnson, @res

    Well, greater variability in how damaged those gene complexes are wouldn’t necessarily be worse than a more even spread in the damage.

    Not sure about that. It depends on the magnitude of damage caused by breaking up the gene complexes (consider hip width and brain size traits and what happens if you get big brains and small hips in a hybrid) compared to the damage caused by additive effects.

    Maybe, but the increased variability in heterozygosity is a form of non-additive heritability isn’t it? And that basically resets every generation. If the less able are out-reproducing the able, more selection on non-additive genetics would be a good thing since it doesn’t last, no?

    Does heterozygosity reset as a whole? Inbreeding depression resets because you break up homozygous low frequency deleterious recessives. I guess one way to look at is to compare offspring of aa and AA (all aA) with offspring of two aA (1 aa, 2 aA, 1 AA).

    My amateur interpretation: for two populations with low genetic distance, the heterozygosity of the mixed population is just an average of the two populations, even if they differ a lot in level of heterozygosity(How can two population have low genetic distance and yet differ a lot in heterozygosity? I’m guessing due to inbreeding/bottleneck in one population, like the Amish compared to regular whites, but I don’t know.). However, for populations significantly different from each other, the heterozygosity peaks close to 50% admixture, slightly on the side of the more heterozygous population.

    Seems reasonable to me, but would be good to confirm with someone like Razib.

    P.S. Sorry I did not have the time/focus available to give a better response.

    • Replies: @Some Guy
    @res


    (consider hip width and brain size traits and what happens if you get big brains and small hips in a hybrid)

     

    Not nice, and would select against big brains too. Makes me think C-sections may have had a significant eugenic effect by decreasing mortality of big-brained babies and their mothers.

    I guess one way to look at is to compare offspring of aa and AA (all aA) with offspring of two aA (1 aa, 2 aA, 1 AA).
     
    So after F1, aA doesn't become more common over time even if it's selected for, right?

    If aa or AA is the less able genotype, then maybe mixing speeds up selection on those somehow though.

    Either way recombination can still break apart gene complexes further I guess:


    Some mechanisms may not appear until two or more generations later (F2 or greater),[5] when recombination has undermined vitality of positive epistasis. Hybrid vigor in the first generation can, in some circumstances, be strong enough to mask the effects of outbreeding depression.
     
    It seems like if hybrid vigor declines after the first generation and outbreeding depression increases(except if there's strong selection against the less able), F1 hybrids are probably going to have better outcomes than subsequent hybrids that keep having children with hybrids of the same type, although the latter is probably rare outside certain places like Latin America(which maybe did have strong selection against the less able until a few generations ago). And who knows how big these effects are.

    Interesting discussion though!

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @res

  158. @res
    @Some Guy


    Well, greater variability in how damaged those gene complexes are wouldn’t necessarily be worse than a more even spread in the damage.
     
    Not sure about that. It depends on the magnitude of damage caused by breaking up the gene complexes (consider hip width and brain size traits and what happens if you get big brains and small hips in a hybrid) compared to the damage caused by additive effects.

    Maybe, but the increased variability in heterozygosity is a form of non-additive heritability isn’t it? And that basically resets every generation. If the less able are out-reproducing the able, more selection on non-additive genetics would be a good thing since it doesn’t last, no?
     
    Does heterozygosity reset as a whole? Inbreeding depression resets because you break up homozygous low frequency deleterious recessives. I guess one way to look at is to compare offspring of aa and AA (all aA) with offspring of two aA (1 aa, 2 aA, 1 AA).

    My amateur interpretation: for two populations with low genetic distance, the heterozygosity of the mixed population is just an average of the two populations, even if they differ a lot in level of heterozygosity(How can two population have low genetic distance and yet differ a lot in heterozygosity? I’m guessing due to inbreeding/bottleneck in one population, like the Amish compared to regular whites, but I don’t know.). However, for populations significantly different from each other, the heterozygosity peaks close to 50% admixture, slightly on the side of the more heterozygous population.
     
    Seems reasonable to me, but would be good to confirm with someone like Razib.

    P.S. Sorry I did not have the time/focus available to give a better response.

    Replies: @Some Guy

    (consider hip width and brain size traits and what happens if you get big brains and small hips in a hybrid)

    Not nice, and would select against big brains too. Makes me think C-sections may have had a significant eugenic effect by decreasing mortality of big-brained babies and their mothers.

    I guess one way to look at is to compare offspring of aa and AA (all aA) with offspring of two aA (1 aa, 2 aA, 1 AA).

    So after F1, aA doesn’t become more common over time even if it’s selected for, right?

    If aa or AA is the less able genotype, then maybe mixing speeds up selection on those somehow though.

    Either way recombination can still break apart gene complexes further I guess:

    Some mechanisms may not appear until two or more generations later (F2 or greater),[5] when recombination has undermined vitality of positive epistasis. Hybrid vigor in the first generation can, in some circumstances, be strong enough to mask the effects of outbreeding depression.

    It seems like if hybrid vigor declines after the first generation and outbreeding depression increases(except if there’s strong selection against the less able), F1 hybrids are probably going to have better outcomes than subsequent hybrids that keep having children with hybrids of the same type, although the latter is probably rare outside certain places like Latin America(which maybe did have strong selection against the less able until a few generations ago). And who knows how big these effects are.

    Interesting discussion though!

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Some Guy

    With the Olympic track competition coming up, the fundamental human issue of pelvic width (narrow is better for running size) and brain size is of interest.

    Replies: @Some Guy

    , @res
    @Some Guy


    Makes me think C-sections may have had a significant eugenic effect by decreasing mortality of big-brained babies and their mothers.
     
    Interesting point. I wonder if anyone has looked into it.

    So after F1, aA doesn’t become more common over time even if it’s selected for, right?
     
    Are you familiar with Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardy%E2%80%93Weinberg_principle

    aA can't be over 50% (F2) in equilibrium.

    It seems like if hybrid vigor declines after the first generation and outbreeding depression increases(except if there’s strong selection against the less able), F1 hybrids are probably going to have better outcomes than subsequent hybrids that keep having children with hybrids of the same type
     
    That is a daunting thought. Especially in a multiracial US with the "hybrid vigor" cheerleading we have. Do you know if anyone has explored this idea in detail? Especially in the context of humans?

    The first two comments in this Reddit post are entertaining in their juxtaposition of woke knee jerk followed by scientific counter.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/biology/comments/d9esxc/is_outbreeding_depression_possible_with_humans/

    Here is the PDF for the reference in the second comment.
    Predicting the Probability of Outbreeding Depression
    https://science.umd.edu/biology/fensterlab/PDF/Frankham%20et%20al%202011%20Predicting%20OD%20CB.pdf

    Figure 1 gives a flow chart evaluating the probability of OD (they are using the context of trying to augment genetic diversity in isolated populations). Seems unlikely to apply to humans though one might argue the conclusion "Evaluate probability of OD in more detail" applies to the continental races.

    Interesting discussion though!
     
    Indeed. Thanks!

    Replies: @Some Guy

  159. @Some Guy
    @res


    (consider hip width and brain size traits and what happens if you get big brains and small hips in a hybrid)

     

    Not nice, and would select against big brains too. Makes me think C-sections may have had a significant eugenic effect by decreasing mortality of big-brained babies and their mothers.

    I guess one way to look at is to compare offspring of aa and AA (all aA) with offspring of two aA (1 aa, 2 aA, 1 AA).
     
    So after F1, aA doesn't become more common over time even if it's selected for, right?

    If aa or AA is the less able genotype, then maybe mixing speeds up selection on those somehow though.

    Either way recombination can still break apart gene complexes further I guess:


    Some mechanisms may not appear until two or more generations later (F2 or greater),[5] when recombination has undermined vitality of positive epistasis. Hybrid vigor in the first generation can, in some circumstances, be strong enough to mask the effects of outbreeding depression.
     
    It seems like if hybrid vigor declines after the first generation and outbreeding depression increases(except if there's strong selection against the less able), F1 hybrids are probably going to have better outcomes than subsequent hybrids that keep having children with hybrids of the same type, although the latter is probably rare outside certain places like Latin America(which maybe did have strong selection against the less able until a few generations ago). And who knows how big these effects are.

    Interesting discussion though!

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @res

    With the Olympic track competition coming up, the fundamental human issue of pelvic width (narrow is better for running size) and brain size is of interest.

    • Replies: @Some Guy
    @Steve Sailer

    Are pelvic race differences also a big factor for men?

    If there's any newspaper articles about racism somehow causing different rates of C-sections for mixed race couples that might be good isteve content.

    "Black women with white husbands have C-sections at astronomical rates, are they being pressured into them by their evil white husbands based on sexist tropes of natural childbirth making things loose down there? Also, there's no such thing as natural childbirth, that's a social construct. C-sections have been performed for thousands of years. As a way to kill mothers by the patriarchy."

    Replies: @res, @res

  160. @Steve Sailer
    @Some Guy

    With the Olympic track competition coming up, the fundamental human issue of pelvic width (narrow is better for running size) and brain size is of interest.

    Replies: @Some Guy

    Are pelvic race differences also a big factor for men?

    If there’s any newspaper articles about racism somehow causing different rates of C-sections for mixed race couples that might be good isteve content.

    “Black women with white husbands have C-sections at astronomical rates, are they being pressured into them by their evil white husbands based on sexist tropes of natural childbirth making things loose down there? Also, there’s no such thing as natural childbirth, that’s a social construct. C-sections have been performed for thousands of years. As a way to kill mothers by the patriarchy.”

    • Replies: @res
    @Some Guy


    If there’s any newspaper articles about racism somehow causing different rates of C-sections for mixed race couples that might be good isteve content.
     
    The first one I found was nonintuitive to me (I thought Asian women had larger hip openings, or maybe this is a sheer physical size of the mother issue?).
    https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2008/10/asian-white-couples-face-distinct-pregnancy-risks-stanfordpackard-study-finds.html

    More specifically, the researchers found that white mother/Asian father couples had the lowest rate (23 percent) of caesarean delivery, while Asian mother/white father couples had the highest rate (33.2 percent). Because birth weights between these two groups were similar, the researchers say the findings suggest that the average Asian woman's pelvis may be smaller than the average white woman's and less able to accommodate babies of a certain size. (Asian couples had babies with the lowest median birth weight, so caesarean delivery was less common among those women.)
     
    Here is a link to the paper abstract. It only covers Asian/white permutations.
    https://www.ajog.org/article/S0002-9378(08)00697-2/abstract

    Sadly, this huge 2020 study (all women in the US with live births in 2016!) did not look at the father's race AFAICT. Opportunity squandered. But perhaps unsurprising given the journal title: Journal of Racial and Ethnic Health Disparities
    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40615-020-00842-3

    This paper from Australia looks at birth outcomes for W/B parents, but nothing on C-sections.
    https://obgyn.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1600-0412.2012.01501.x

    This Korean paper only differentiates Korean/foreign (now there is a useful way to categorize things ; / but at least they acknowledge it "Our study has several limitations. First, the racial categorization of “foreign” inadequately reflects the genetic diversity of these broadly-defined groups. In Korea, the number of interracial couples is relatively small, but more information is needed regarding racial categories.")
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5592180/

    I guess nobody really wants to know the answer for B/W couples. Funny how that works.
    , @res
    @Some Guy


    Are pelvic race differences also a big factor for men?
     
    They exist. Not sure how much they matter. See Table III.
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1063458419312737
  161. res says:
    @Some Guy
    @Steve Sailer

    Are pelvic race differences also a big factor for men?

    If there's any newspaper articles about racism somehow causing different rates of C-sections for mixed race couples that might be good isteve content.

    "Black women with white husbands have C-sections at astronomical rates, are they being pressured into them by their evil white husbands based on sexist tropes of natural childbirth making things loose down there? Also, there's no such thing as natural childbirth, that's a social construct. C-sections have been performed for thousands of years. As a way to kill mothers by the patriarchy."

    Replies: @res, @res

    If there’s any newspaper articles about racism somehow causing different rates of C-sections for mixed race couples that might be good isteve content.

    The first one I found was nonintuitive to me (I thought Asian women had larger hip openings, or maybe this is a sheer physical size of the mother issue?).
    https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2008/10/asian-white-couples-face-distinct-pregnancy-risks-stanfordpackard-study-finds.html

    More specifically, the researchers found that white mother/Asian father couples had the lowest rate (23 percent) of caesarean delivery, while Asian mother/white father couples had the highest rate (33.2 percent). Because birth weights between these two groups were similar, the researchers say the findings suggest that the average Asian woman’s pelvis may be smaller than the average white woman’s and less able to accommodate babies of a certain size. (Asian couples had babies with the lowest median birth weight, so caesarean delivery was less common among those women.)

    Here is a link to the paper abstract. It only covers Asian/white permutations.
    https://www.ajog.org/article/S0002-9378(08)00697-2/abstract

    Sadly, this huge 2020 study (all women in the US with live births in 2016!) did not look at the father’s race AFAICT. Opportunity squandered. But perhaps unsurprising given the journal title: Journal of Racial and Ethnic Health Disparities
    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40615-020-00842-3

    This paper from Australia looks at birth outcomes for W/B parents, but nothing on C-sections.
    https://obgyn.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1600-0412.2012.01501.x

    This Korean paper only differentiates Korean/foreign (now there is a useful way to categorize things ; / but at least they acknowledge it “Our study has several limitations. First, the racial categorization of “foreign” inadequately reflects the genetic diversity of these broadly-defined groups. In Korea, the number of interracial couples is relatively small, but more information is needed regarding racial categories.”)
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5592180/

    I guess nobody really wants to know the answer for B/W couples. Funny how that works.

  162. @Some Guy
    @Steve Sailer

    Are pelvic race differences also a big factor for men?

    If there's any newspaper articles about racism somehow causing different rates of C-sections for mixed race couples that might be good isteve content.

    "Black women with white husbands have C-sections at astronomical rates, are they being pressured into them by their evil white husbands based on sexist tropes of natural childbirth making things loose down there? Also, there's no such thing as natural childbirth, that's a social construct. C-sections have been performed for thousands of years. As a way to kill mothers by the patriarchy."

    Replies: @res, @res

    Are pelvic race differences also a big factor for men?

    They exist. Not sure how much they matter. See Table III.
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1063458419312737

  163. res says:
    @Some Guy
    @res


    (consider hip width and brain size traits and what happens if you get big brains and small hips in a hybrid)

     

    Not nice, and would select against big brains too. Makes me think C-sections may have had a significant eugenic effect by decreasing mortality of big-brained babies and their mothers.

    I guess one way to look at is to compare offspring of aa and AA (all aA) with offspring of two aA (1 aa, 2 aA, 1 AA).
     
    So after F1, aA doesn't become more common over time even if it's selected for, right?

    If aa or AA is the less able genotype, then maybe mixing speeds up selection on those somehow though.

    Either way recombination can still break apart gene complexes further I guess:


    Some mechanisms may not appear until two or more generations later (F2 or greater),[5] when recombination has undermined vitality of positive epistasis. Hybrid vigor in the first generation can, in some circumstances, be strong enough to mask the effects of outbreeding depression.
     
    It seems like if hybrid vigor declines after the first generation and outbreeding depression increases(except if there's strong selection against the less able), F1 hybrids are probably going to have better outcomes than subsequent hybrids that keep having children with hybrids of the same type, although the latter is probably rare outside certain places like Latin America(which maybe did have strong selection against the less able until a few generations ago). And who knows how big these effects are.

    Interesting discussion though!

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @res

    Makes me think C-sections may have had a significant eugenic effect by decreasing mortality of big-brained babies and their mothers.

    Interesting point. I wonder if anyone has looked into it.

    So after F1, aA doesn’t become more common over time even if it’s selected for, right?

    Are you familiar with Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardy%E2%80%93Weinberg_principle

    aA can’t be over 50% (F2) in equilibrium.

    It seems like if hybrid vigor declines after the first generation and outbreeding depression increases(except if there’s strong selection against the less able), F1 hybrids are probably going to have better outcomes than subsequent hybrids that keep having children with hybrids of the same type

    That is a daunting thought. Especially in a multiracial US with the “hybrid vigor” cheerleading we have. Do you know if anyone has explored this idea in detail? Especially in the context of humans?

    The first two comments in this Reddit post are entertaining in their juxtaposition of woke knee jerk followed by scientific counter.

    Is outbreeding depression possible with humans? from biology

    Here is the PDF for the reference in the second comment.
    Predicting the Probability of Outbreeding Depression
    https://science.umd.edu/biology/fensterlab/PDF/Frankham%20et%20al%202011%20Predicting%20OD%20CB.pdf

    Figure 1 gives a flow chart evaluating the probability of OD (they are using the context of trying to augment genetic diversity in isolated populations). Seems unlikely to apply to humans though one might argue the conclusion “Evaluate probability of OD in more detail” applies to the continental races.

    Interesting discussion though!

    Indeed. Thanks!

    • Replies: @Some Guy
    @res


    maybe this is a sheer physical size of the mother issue?
     
    Yes, that could be a problem, especially for first-generation Asians. Anyway, sorry to throw out so many questions and making you do research on them :)

    Are you familiar with Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardy%E2%80%93Weinberg_principle

    aA can’t be over 50% (F2) in equilibrium.
     
    No, but that's what I was getting at, thanks.

    That is a daunting thought. Especially in a multiracial US with the “hybrid vigor” cheerleading we have. Do you know if anyone has explored this idea in detail? Especially in the context of humans?
     
    Unfortunately not. Perhaps genetic engineering will make it a moot point.

    Seems unlikely to apply to humans
     
    What about this part?

    https://i.ibb.co/ykMmfch/gene-flow-separation-flowchart-500-years.png

    Would make a good ethno-nationalist symbol.

    Replies: @res

  164. @res
    @Some Guy


    Makes me think C-sections may have had a significant eugenic effect by decreasing mortality of big-brained babies and their mothers.
     
    Interesting point. I wonder if anyone has looked into it.

    So after F1, aA doesn’t become more common over time even if it’s selected for, right?
     
    Are you familiar with Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardy%E2%80%93Weinberg_principle

    aA can't be over 50% (F2) in equilibrium.

    It seems like if hybrid vigor declines after the first generation and outbreeding depression increases(except if there’s strong selection against the less able), F1 hybrids are probably going to have better outcomes than subsequent hybrids that keep having children with hybrids of the same type
     
    That is a daunting thought. Especially in a multiracial US with the "hybrid vigor" cheerleading we have. Do you know if anyone has explored this idea in detail? Especially in the context of humans?

    The first two comments in this Reddit post are entertaining in their juxtaposition of woke knee jerk followed by scientific counter.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/biology/comments/d9esxc/is_outbreeding_depression_possible_with_humans/

    Here is the PDF for the reference in the second comment.
    Predicting the Probability of Outbreeding Depression
    https://science.umd.edu/biology/fensterlab/PDF/Frankham%20et%20al%202011%20Predicting%20OD%20CB.pdf

    Figure 1 gives a flow chart evaluating the probability of OD (they are using the context of trying to augment genetic diversity in isolated populations). Seems unlikely to apply to humans though one might argue the conclusion "Evaluate probability of OD in more detail" applies to the continental races.

    Interesting discussion though!
     
    Indeed. Thanks!

    Replies: @Some Guy

    maybe this is a sheer physical size of the mother issue?

    Yes, that could be a problem, especially for first-generation Asians. Anyway, sorry to throw out so many questions and making you do research on them 🙂

    Are you familiar with Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardy%E2%80%93Weinberg_principle

    aA can’t be over 50% (F2) in equilibrium.

    No, but that’s what I was getting at, thanks.

    That is a daunting thought. Especially in a multiracial US with the “hybrid vigor” cheerleading we have. Do you know if anyone has explored this idea in detail? Especially in the context of humans?

    Unfortunately not. Perhaps genetic engineering will make it a moot point.

    Seems unlikely to apply to humans

    What about this part?

    Would make a good ethno-nationalist symbol.

    • Replies: @res
    @Some Guy


    Anyway, sorry to throw out so many questions and making you do research on them 🙂
     
    I wouldn't do it if I did not enjoy it. ; ) Though sometimes I have more time and motivation than others.

    What about this part?
     
    The problem is they did not quantify how much gene flow. My understanding it does not take much to make a difference.

    Would make a good ethno-nationalist symbol.
     
    True. Did not even occur to me.
  165. res says:
    @Some Guy
    @res


    maybe this is a sheer physical size of the mother issue?
     
    Yes, that could be a problem, especially for first-generation Asians. Anyway, sorry to throw out so many questions and making you do research on them :)

    Are you familiar with Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardy%E2%80%93Weinberg_principle

    aA can’t be over 50% (F2) in equilibrium.
     
    No, but that's what I was getting at, thanks.

    That is a daunting thought. Especially in a multiracial US with the “hybrid vigor” cheerleading we have. Do you know if anyone has explored this idea in detail? Especially in the context of humans?
     
    Unfortunately not. Perhaps genetic engineering will make it a moot point.

    Seems unlikely to apply to humans
     
    What about this part?

    https://i.ibb.co/ykMmfch/gene-flow-separation-flowchart-500-years.png

    Would make a good ethno-nationalist symbol.

    Replies: @res

    Anyway, sorry to throw out so many questions and making you do research on them 🙂

    I wouldn’t do it if I did not enjoy it. ; ) Though sometimes I have more time and motivation than others.

    What about this part?

    The problem is they did not quantify how much gene flow. My understanding it does not take much to make a difference.

    Would make a good ethno-nationalist symbol.

    True. Did not even occur to me.

  166. The problem is they did not quantify how much gene flow.

    Negligible between most continents for the last 500 years except for the Americas.

    • Thanks: Peter Johnson
    • Replies: @res
    @Some Guy

    Europe, Asia, and North Africa being a notable exception. Especially near the boundaries.

    To be clear, I agree with you more than disagree. If you search my comments for "Anti-HDB" you will see me in extended arguments contending that there was not much gene flow between the continents (once past the boundaries in particular). The issue I see is it might not take that much to make a difference here. That is why I would much prefer a quantification. Say in terms of Fst.

    The big problem with this topic is all of the dis/misinformation. That paper I linked is reasonably clear only because it deals with the genetics of species preservation which is important enough to some people to override PC constraints. Though usually such research is filled with disclaimers of how it does not apply to humans because reasons (that dynamic is why the Reddit thread was funny).

    BTW, I find Greg Cochran's Fst/gene flow argument convincing.
    https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2019/01/07/gene-flow/

    This comment is a good representative of my go rounds with Anti-HBD. It includes a discussion of Cochran's argument.
    https://www.unz.com/jthompson/human-diversity-the-interpretable-mosaic/#comment-3710760

    Replies: @Some Guy

  167. res says:
    @Some Guy

    The problem is they did not quantify how much gene flow.
     
    Negligible between most continents for the last 500 years except for the Americas.

    Replies: @res

    Europe, Asia, and North Africa being a notable exception. Especially near the boundaries.

    To be clear, I agree with you more than disagree. If you search my comments for “Anti-HDB” you will see me in extended arguments contending that there was not much gene flow between the continents (once past the boundaries in particular). The issue I see is it might not take that much to make a difference here. That is why I would much prefer a quantification. Say in terms of Fst.

    The big problem with this topic is all of the dis/misinformation. That paper I linked is reasonably clear only because it deals with the genetics of species preservation which is important enough to some people to override PC constraints. Though usually such research is filled with disclaimers of how it does not apply to humans because reasons (that dynamic is why the Reddit thread was funny).

    BTW, I find Greg Cochran’s Fst/gene flow argument convincing.
    https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2019/01/07/gene-flow/

    This comment is a good representative of my go rounds with Anti-HBD. It includes a discussion of Cochran’s argument.
    https://www.unz.com/jthompson/human-diversity-the-interpretable-mosaic/#comment-3710760

    • Thanks: Peter Johnson
    • Replies: @Some Guy
    @res


    BTW, I find Greg Cochran’s Fst/gene flow argument convincing.
    https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2019/01/07/gene-flow/
     
    Interesting, I see what you mean about quantification. If it's "adaptive divergence of polygenic traits" that matters for outbreeding outcomes then

    for gene flow to substantially block adaptive divergence of a polygenic trait, gene flow has to average on the order of 2% or more per generation.
     
    Between Germans and Swedes(Fst 0.0007) there's about 357 migrants per generation I think, that would only block adaptive divergence if their total populations were only 17,844.

    Even under the 1 migrant per generation rule-of-thumb, Sub-Saharan Africans barely reach that with other races.

    Replies: @res

  168. @res
    @Some Guy

    Europe, Asia, and North Africa being a notable exception. Especially near the boundaries.

    To be clear, I agree with you more than disagree. If you search my comments for "Anti-HDB" you will see me in extended arguments contending that there was not much gene flow between the continents (once past the boundaries in particular). The issue I see is it might not take that much to make a difference here. That is why I would much prefer a quantification. Say in terms of Fst.

    The big problem with this topic is all of the dis/misinformation. That paper I linked is reasonably clear only because it deals with the genetics of species preservation which is important enough to some people to override PC constraints. Though usually such research is filled with disclaimers of how it does not apply to humans because reasons (that dynamic is why the Reddit thread was funny).

    BTW, I find Greg Cochran's Fst/gene flow argument convincing.
    https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2019/01/07/gene-flow/

    This comment is a good representative of my go rounds with Anti-HBD. It includes a discussion of Cochran's argument.
    https://www.unz.com/jthompson/human-diversity-the-interpretable-mosaic/#comment-3710760

    Replies: @Some Guy

    BTW, I find Greg Cochran’s Fst/gene flow argument convincing.
    https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2019/01/07/gene-flow/

    Interesting, I see what you mean about quantification. If it’s “adaptive divergence of polygenic traits” that matters for outbreeding outcomes then

    for gene flow to substantially block adaptive divergence of a polygenic trait, gene flow has to average on the order of 2% or more per generation.

    Between Germans and Swedes(Fst 0.0007) there’s about 357 migrants per generation I think, that would only block adaptive divergence if their total populations were only 17,844.

    Even under the 1 migrant per generation rule-of-thumb, Sub-Saharan Africans barely reach that with other races.

    • Replies: @res
    @Some Guy

    Mostly right. One thing to be careful about is in discussions like this they often mean "effective population" rather than "total."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effective_population_size

    If you look at the equation Cochran gives you will see it is N_e. That is typical notation for effective population size.

    This paper gives estimates for N_e of CEU and YRI (basically European and African) populations.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1832099/


    giving adjusted estimates of effective population sizes of ∼3100 (non-African populations) and ∼7500 (African population).
     
    If I understand correctly, those are estimates for the ancestral populations. Figure 3 shows the behavior across time with present day Europe appearing to be over 10,000.

    In any case, you can see how those numbers work with your German/Swede migration numbers.
  169. res says:
    @Some Guy
    @res


    BTW, I find Greg Cochran’s Fst/gene flow argument convincing.
    https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2019/01/07/gene-flow/
     
    Interesting, I see what you mean about quantification. If it's "adaptive divergence of polygenic traits" that matters for outbreeding outcomes then

    for gene flow to substantially block adaptive divergence of a polygenic trait, gene flow has to average on the order of 2% or more per generation.
     
    Between Germans and Swedes(Fst 0.0007) there's about 357 migrants per generation I think, that would only block adaptive divergence if their total populations were only 17,844.

    Even under the 1 migrant per generation rule-of-thumb, Sub-Saharan Africans barely reach that with other races.

    Replies: @res

    Mostly right. One thing to be careful about is in discussions like this they often mean “effective population” rather than “total.”
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effective_population_size

    If you look at the equation Cochran gives you will see it is N_e. That is typical notation for effective population size.

    This paper gives estimates for N_e of CEU and YRI (basically European and African) populations.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1832099/

    giving adjusted estimates of effective population sizes of ∼3100 (non-African populations) and ∼7500 (African population).

    If I understand correctly, those are estimates for the ancestral populations. Figure 3 shows the behavior across time with present day Europe appearing to be over 10,000.

    In any case, you can see how those numbers work with your German/Swede migration numbers.

    • Thanks: Some Guy

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