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From The Atlantic:

A Shocking Find In a Neanderthal Cave In France
A rock structure, built deep underground, is one of the earliest hominin constructions ever found.

by Ed Yong

… Some 336 meters into the cave, the caver stumbled across something extraordinary—a vast chamber where several stalagmites had been deliberately broken. Most of the 400 pieces had been arranged into two rings—a large one between 4 and 7 metres across, and a smaller one just 2 metres wide. Others had been propped up against these donuts. Yet others had been stacked into four piles. Traces of fire were everywhere, and there was a mass of burnt bones.

These weren’t natural formations, and they weren’t the work of bears. They were built by people. …

Their date? 176,500 years ago, give or take a few millennia.

“When I announced the age to Jacques, he asked me to repeat it because it was so incredible,” says Verheyden. Outside Bruniquel Cave, the earliest, unambiguous human constructions are just 20,000 years old. Most of these are ruins—collapsed collections of mammoth bones and deer antlers. By comparison, the Bruniquel stalagmite rings are well-preserved and far more ancient.

And if Rouzaud’s work made it unlikely that modern humans built the rings, Verheyden’s study grinds that possibility into the dust. Neanderthals must have been responsible. There simply wasn’t any other hominin in that region at that time.

“When you see such a structure so far into the cave, you think of something cultural or religious.”
Why did they build the rings and mounds? The structures weren’t foundations for huts; the chamber contains no stone tools, human bones, or any other sign of permanent occupation, and besides, why build shelter inside a cave? “A plausible explanation is that this was a meeting place for some type of ritual social behavior,” says Paola Villa from the University of Colorado Museum.

By the way, I try not to construct big theories that hinge upon one archaeological site, since estimated dates and interpretations tend to come and go. But this one is interesting, although I certainly won’t guarantee it will stand up in the long run.

 
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  1. France has magic dirt!

    • Replies: @Father O'Hara
    @vinny

    The first He Man Woman Haters Club?

  2. Probably reading too much into it- it’s likely just the ruins from some of those damn French Neanderthals storming some ancient Bastille or something….

    • Replies: @Grandpa Jack
    @Grandpa Jack

    Nah, the fires, ruins, rubbish- more likely some foreign immigrant early homosapiens staying in the Banlieues....

  3. I won’t be surprised if this discovery pans out.

    I think “Neander Pride” works better; there should be the usual promotional materials, bumper stickers, t-shirts, coffee cups. What we really need is a flag ……

    My theory about Neander disappearance involves: (a) small numbers to begin with (inefficient breeders, compare rhinos and deer), (b) large skull probably engendered high maternal-infant mortality without modern medicine (cesarians were dangerous), (c) possible inability to articulate complex language. But I think there are still traces in us today: the real interesting question is how much “folk memory” — if there is any at all — extends back exactly how far — that pertains to modern humans as well as Neanders, after all, our historical memory is only about 5 K years in length.

    • Replies: @Neil Templeton
    @SPMoore8

    "possible inability to articulate complex language."

    Maybe they never learned to lie, and were overwhelmed by more duplicitous types.

    , @Glossy
    @SPMoore8

    the real interesting question is how much “folk memory” — if there is any at all — extends back exactly how far

    I'm not aware of any mythology that alludes to the Ice Ages or to the Neanderthals.

    My 23AndMe page used to show the percentage of my ancestry that's attributable to the Neanderthals. That seems to have disappeared, replaced by the statement that I have 237 Neanderthal genetic variants. The 23AndMe record holder has 387 variants. I'd love to see a picture of him. No, I don't expect him to look like Nikolay Valuev, but still, it would be interesting to see that guy.

    Replies: @SPMoore8, @anon

    , @Neil Templeton
    @SPMoore8

    My theory is that Neandertals had fringe sexual relations with small headed humans. As the Neandertal genes spread throughout the human population, the women of that population died in great numbers while giving birth to large headed babies. The resulting shortage of women, in time, led to women becoming strongly hypergamous to take advantage of the man surplus.

    Concurrently, men evolved mating characteristics to accommodate the reduced supply of women and a corresponding dramatic increase in the magnitude and severity of shit testing and other forms of sexual separation functions. When the human and Neandertal populations met once again, the sexually wise men stole the Neander females away, leaving the Neander males to brood over campfires within their stalagmite shrines, wondering what the hell happened.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon

    , @Peter Akuleyev
    @SPMoore8

    I have always wondered whether tales of trolls and ogres in Scandinavia aren't folk memory of remnants of Neanderthals deep in the woods. It makes sense at least that Neanderthals would have survived longer on Europe's northern fringe.

    Replies: @AP

    , @Romanian
    @SPMoore8

    Maybe they were outbreeders who wanted diversity and multiculturalism and got it good and hard from the Cro-Magnons that eventually replaced them, with some genetic material as remnant?

    , @Mr. Anon
    @SPMoore8

    "I think “Neander Pride” works better; there should be the usual promotional materials, bumper stickers, t-shirts, coffee cups. What we really need is a flag ……"

    LGBTN. Is it possible to be neander-fluid? Can I identify as a Neanderthal?

  4. Ivy says:

    The absence of tools could also mean that the early inhabitants took them elsewhere. Perhaps a proto-bear family chased them away to another cave, or they got a bed bug infestation, or…..

    Nonetheless, imagine what other discoveries might help pave the way to more avenues of knowledge during the 100K+ year interregnum.

  5. I have Neanderthal variants for height and less back hair. Living the dream.

    • Replies: @JVO
    @Jocko Homo

    You're saying you've DEVOlved, then.

  6. What does this have to do with Neanderthal pride? Is pride the term for a group or family of Neanderthals, like for lions?

  7. @SPMoore8
    I won't be surprised if this discovery pans out.

    I think "Neander Pride" works better; there should be the usual promotional materials, bumper stickers, t-shirts, coffee cups. What we really need is a flag ......

    My theory about Neander disappearance involves: (a) small numbers to begin with (inefficient breeders, compare rhinos and deer), (b) large skull probably engendered high maternal-infant mortality without modern medicine (cesarians were dangerous), (c) possible inability to articulate complex language. But I think there are still traces in us today: the real interesting question is how much "folk memory" -- if there is any at all -- extends back exactly how far -- that pertains to modern humans as well as Neanders, after all, our historical memory is only about 5 K years in length.

    Replies: @Neil Templeton, @Glossy, @Neil Templeton, @Peter Akuleyev, @Romanian, @Mr. Anon

    “possible inability to articulate complex language.”

    Maybe they never learned to lie, and were overwhelmed by more duplicitous types.

  8. muh peoples

  9. neanderthal illuminati

    • Agree: gruff
  10. Glossy says: • Website
    @SPMoore8
    I won't be surprised if this discovery pans out.

    I think "Neander Pride" works better; there should be the usual promotional materials, bumper stickers, t-shirts, coffee cups. What we really need is a flag ......

    My theory about Neander disappearance involves: (a) small numbers to begin with (inefficient breeders, compare rhinos and deer), (b) large skull probably engendered high maternal-infant mortality without modern medicine (cesarians were dangerous), (c) possible inability to articulate complex language. But I think there are still traces in us today: the real interesting question is how much "folk memory" -- if there is any at all -- extends back exactly how far -- that pertains to modern humans as well as Neanders, after all, our historical memory is only about 5 K years in length.

    Replies: @Neil Templeton, @Glossy, @Neil Templeton, @Peter Akuleyev, @Romanian, @Mr. Anon

    the real interesting question is how much “folk memory” — if there is any at all — extends back exactly how far

    I’m not aware of any mythology that alludes to the Ice Ages or to the Neanderthals.

    My 23AndMe page used to show the percentage of my ancestry that’s attributable to the Neanderthals. That seems to have disappeared, replaced by the statement that I have 237 Neanderthal genetic variants. The 23AndMe record holder has 387 variants. I’d love to see a picture of him. No, I don’t expect him to look like Nikolay Valuev, but still, it would be interesting to see that guy.

    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    @Glossy

    I'm a hopeless romantic when it comes to myth, I want to think that some of these myths have a very deep horizon. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like there's any collective memory at all, once you get past about 7 K years ago (Black Sea Deluge Hypothesis.) But I can dream.

    , @anon
    @Glossy


    I’m not aware of any mythology that alludes to the Ice Ages or to the Neanderthals.
     
    Giant myths imo.

    There is *some* surviving ancestry in Europeans old enough.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3569545/The-founding-fathers-Europe-DNA-reveals-Europeans-related-group-lived-Belgium-35-000-years-ago.html

    so maybe ancient stories got passed down

    but personally i find more likely, if
    - neanderthals were cold adapted
    - humans and neanderthals mixed
    - neanderthal dna was generally selected against except the really good bits
    then the neanderthal dna might provide more advantage and thus survive longer in colder regions: latitude or altitude, so those legends may have come from human tribes that were say 5% neanderthal living next to mountain people who were at the time still say 15% neanderthal and still had a distinctly different phentotype.

    A whole tribe of Valuevs could easily give rise to giant myths imo.

    #


    The upshot from this is that the dogmatic ‘out of Africa’ scenario of sapien origins, which posits a ‘recent’ common origin of *all* modern humans from a home in the African continent, must be formally junked by all serious open minded thinkers on the subject.
     
    Isn't it still mostly true but instead of

    - OoA replacing all the various archaic hominids that lived in Eurasia previously

    it's more

    - OoA mixing with the various regional archaic hominids that lived in Eurasia previously and picking up genes from them that were critical for each region

    ?

  11. The most deplorable one [AKA "Fourth doorman of the apocalypse"] says:

    I tell you, the Pak came and wiped out the Neanderthals for us.

    • Replies: @anonymous
    @The most deplorable one

    Solidarity, fellow Pak breeder mutants!

  12. “Others had been propped up against these donuts.” I see my preferred spelling is catching on .

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosquer_Cave

    Some times I’m conflicted am I glad to know about this place , I guess I am , but I hope there are more that we will never find . Is that odd ?

  13. “since estimated dates and interpretations tend to come and go”

    Yeah, these previous guesstimates were off over 800%.

    “Their date? 176,500 years ago, give or take a few millennia.

    “When I announced the age to Jacques, he asked me to repeat it because it was so incredible,” says Verheyden. Outside Bruniquel Cave, the earliest, unambiguous human constructions are just 20,000 years old. ”

    • Replies: @5371
    @boogerbently

    [Outside Bruniquel Cave, the earliest, unambiguous human constructions are just 20,000 years old]

    That's nonsense. There's a hearth at Terra Amata near Nice dated to 400 thousand years ago.

  14. @SPMoore8
    I won't be surprised if this discovery pans out.

    I think "Neander Pride" works better; there should be the usual promotional materials, bumper stickers, t-shirts, coffee cups. What we really need is a flag ......

    My theory about Neander disappearance involves: (a) small numbers to begin with (inefficient breeders, compare rhinos and deer), (b) large skull probably engendered high maternal-infant mortality without modern medicine (cesarians were dangerous), (c) possible inability to articulate complex language. But I think there are still traces in us today: the real interesting question is how much "folk memory" -- if there is any at all -- extends back exactly how far -- that pertains to modern humans as well as Neanders, after all, our historical memory is only about 5 K years in length.

    Replies: @Neil Templeton, @Glossy, @Neil Templeton, @Peter Akuleyev, @Romanian, @Mr. Anon

    My theory is that Neandertals had fringe sexual relations with small headed humans. As the Neandertal genes spread throughout the human population, the women of that population died in great numbers while giving birth to large headed babies. The resulting shortage of women, in time, led to women becoming strongly hypergamous to take advantage of the man surplus.

    Concurrently, men evolved mating characteristics to accommodate the reduced supply of women and a corresponding dramatic increase in the magnitude and severity of shit testing and other forms of sexual separation functions. When the human and Neandertal populations met once again, the sexually wise men stole the Neander females away, leaving the Neander males to brood over campfires within their stalagmite shrines, wondering what the hell happened.

    • Agree: SPMoore8, Travis
    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    @Neil Templeton

    "When the human and Neandertal populations met once again, the sexually wise men stole the Neander females away, leaving the Neander males to brood over campfires within their stalagmite shrines, wondering what the hell happened."

    And they didn't even have WoW or anime to console themselves with.

    Replies: @Stan Adams

  15. I find interesting the recent hypothesis that neanderthals were out competed by homo sapiens teaming with wolf-dogs (a big advantage). Perhaps having a cool wolf-dog at your side also made those early male home sapiens look cool to the sexy neandergals. I know the gals flock around me when I am out and about with my sister’s golden retriever.

    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    @purpleslog

    "Neandergal" is the word of the day. Cave chicks may have dug cro magnons with dogs, but I imagine a Neanderthal would have gotten wise and made some cat cave paintings. I am sure such a Neander would have had no shortage of ladies coming up to his cave to view his etchings.

    Replies: @Romanian

    , @ben tillman
    @purpleslog


    I find interesting the recent hypothesis that neanderthals were out competed by homo sapiens teaming with wolf-dogs (a big advantage).
     
    Seems unlikely.

    Replies: @Sean

  16. @Glossy
    @SPMoore8

    the real interesting question is how much “folk memory” — if there is any at all — extends back exactly how far

    I'm not aware of any mythology that alludes to the Ice Ages or to the Neanderthals.

    My 23AndMe page used to show the percentage of my ancestry that's attributable to the Neanderthals. That seems to have disappeared, replaced by the statement that I have 237 Neanderthal genetic variants. The 23AndMe record holder has 387 variants. I'd love to see a picture of him. No, I don't expect him to look like Nikolay Valuev, but still, it would be interesting to see that guy.

    Replies: @SPMoore8, @anon

    I’m a hopeless romantic when it comes to myth, I want to think that some of these myths have a very deep horizon. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem like there’s any collective memory at all, once you get past about 7 K years ago (Black Sea Deluge Hypothesis.) But I can dream.

  17. @purpleslog
    I find interesting the recent hypothesis that neanderthals were out competed by homo sapiens teaming with wolf-dogs (a big advantage). Perhaps having a cool wolf-dog at your side also made those early male home sapiens look cool to the sexy neandergals. I know the gals flock around me when I am out and about with my sister's golden retriever.

    Replies: @SPMoore8, @ben tillman

    “Neandergal” is the word of the day. Cave chicks may have dug cro magnons with dogs, but I imagine a Neanderthal would have gotten wise and made some cat cave paintings. I am sure such a Neander would have had no shortage of ladies coming up to his cave to view his etchings.

    • Replies: @Romanian
    @SPMoore8

    Stendhal syndrome made them easier to mount, without the classic caveman club to the head.

    Replies: @yaqub the mad scientist

  18. @Jocko Homo
    I have Neanderthal variants for height and less back hair. Living the dream.

    Replies: @JVO

    You’re saying you’ve DEVOlved, then.

  19. @SPMoore8
    I won't be surprised if this discovery pans out.

    I think "Neander Pride" works better; there should be the usual promotional materials, bumper stickers, t-shirts, coffee cups. What we really need is a flag ......

    My theory about Neander disappearance involves: (a) small numbers to begin with (inefficient breeders, compare rhinos and deer), (b) large skull probably engendered high maternal-infant mortality without modern medicine (cesarians were dangerous), (c) possible inability to articulate complex language. But I think there are still traces in us today: the real interesting question is how much "folk memory" -- if there is any at all -- extends back exactly how far -- that pertains to modern humans as well as Neanders, after all, our historical memory is only about 5 K years in length.

    Replies: @Neil Templeton, @Glossy, @Neil Templeton, @Peter Akuleyev, @Romanian, @Mr. Anon

    I have always wondered whether tales of trolls and ogres in Scandinavia aren’t folk memory of remnants of Neanderthals deep in the woods. It makes sense at least that Neanderthals would have survived longer on Europe’s northern fringe.

    • Agree: SPMoore8
    • Replies: @AP
    @Peter Akuleyev

    This makes sense but unfortunately is probably not the case - modern Europeans generally aren't descended from the first homo sapiens who replaced the Neanderthals in Europe, but from later waves who replaced those (modern European Neanderthal ancestry comes from mixing that occurred long before the descendants came to Europe).

    http://sciencenordic.com/history-rewritten-europeans-were-%E2%80%9Cborn%E2%80%9D-bronze-age

    Replies: @celt darnell, @Paul Mendez

  20. To me the Neanderthal conjures images of Warren Oats and Lee Marvin.

    How can you not admire the Neanderthal?

    Famous neanderthals such as Bon Scott of AC/DC and Keith Moon of the Who merely add to this mystique of the neanderthal.

    But what about neanderthal women? Anybody here know of any? What’s a neanderthal woman look like?

    • Replies: @AP
    @Trelane


    But what about neanderthal women? Anybody here know of any? What’s a neanderthal woman look like?
     
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/6b/8c/8e/6b8c8e42607394b4a43c9b3efdbafe12.jpg

    An app that transforms portraits into Neanderthals would be cool.
    , @dr kill
    @Trelane

    The womenfolk closely resemble the trigglypuff girl at Rutgers. The northeastern US is a hotbed of Neanderr-lookers, IYKWIMAITYD. Woof woof

    , @Buffalo Joe
    @Trelane

    They look like this.... O-(8-< Of course she's lying down, but based on a cave drawing.

  21. AP says:
    @Peter Akuleyev
    @SPMoore8

    I have always wondered whether tales of trolls and ogres in Scandinavia aren't folk memory of remnants of Neanderthals deep in the woods. It makes sense at least that Neanderthals would have survived longer on Europe's northern fringe.

    Replies: @AP

    This makes sense but unfortunately is probably not the case – modern Europeans generally aren’t descended from the first homo sapiens who replaced the Neanderthals in Europe, but from later waves who replaced those (modern European Neanderthal ancestry comes from mixing that occurred long before the descendants came to Europe).

    http://sciencenordic.com/history-rewritten-europeans-were-%E2%80%9Cborn%E2%80%9D-bronze-age

    • Replies: @celt darnell
    @AP

    OK, but isn't it still possible those later waves merely repeated the tales of the first waves? I can imagine the garbling of the tales over time and between cultures could transform neanderthals into mythical creatures.

    , @Paul Mendez
    @AP

    Fear of "the boogeyman" who lives in the forest could be an instinctive fear, like chicks that instinctively hide when a hawk flies overhead.

    Closer to home, many human children are instinctively afraid of the dark, spiders and snakes. These are probably genetically programmed behaviors from our distant past.

    Google "Neanderthal Predation Theory." I'm not sure I buy the whole thing, but it does make you think.

    Replies: @Paul Mendez, @SPMoore8

  22. @Trelane
    To me the Neanderthal conjures images of Warren Oats and Lee Marvin.

    How can you not admire the Neanderthal?

    Famous neanderthals such as Bon Scott of AC/DC and Keith Moon of the Who merely add to this mystique of the neanderthal.

    But what about neanderthal women? Anybody here know of any? What's a neanderthal woman look like?

    Replies: @AP, @dr kill, @Buffalo Joe

    But what about neanderthal women? Anybody here know of any? What’s a neanderthal woman look like?

    An app that transforms portraits into Neanderthals would be cool.

  23. White Pride Cave Wide

  24. @AP
    @Peter Akuleyev

    This makes sense but unfortunately is probably not the case - modern Europeans generally aren't descended from the first homo sapiens who replaced the Neanderthals in Europe, but from later waves who replaced those (modern European Neanderthal ancestry comes from mixing that occurred long before the descendants came to Europe).

    http://sciencenordic.com/history-rewritten-europeans-were-%E2%80%9Cborn%E2%80%9D-bronze-age

    Replies: @celt darnell, @Paul Mendez

    OK, but isn’t it still possible those later waves merely repeated the tales of the first waves? I can imagine the garbling of the tales over time and between cultures could transform neanderthals into mythical creatures.

  25. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    175,000 years ago.

    An awful, awful long time ago buried in the unfathomable depths of prehistory.

    The upshot from this is that the dogmatic ‘out of Africa’ scenario of sapien origins, which posits a ‘recent’ common origin of *all* modern humans from a home in the African continent, must be formally junked by all serious open minded thinkers on the subject.

    If there is another trite ‘just-so’ cuddly PC theory to replace it is doubtful, but the long long story of sapien origins is a damned sight more convoluted, ancient and mysterious than some would have it.

    • Agree: ben tillman
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Anonymous

    The dates for some homo sapien sapiens leaving Africa varies between older claims of 60K B.P. and more recent claims of 100k B.P. but the OOA theory itself is pretty robust. The article mentions Homo Sapien Neanderthalensis , not Homo sapien Sapiens (Anatomically Modern Humans).

  26. @SPMoore8
    I won't be surprised if this discovery pans out.

    I think "Neander Pride" works better; there should be the usual promotional materials, bumper stickers, t-shirts, coffee cups. What we really need is a flag ......

    My theory about Neander disappearance involves: (a) small numbers to begin with (inefficient breeders, compare rhinos and deer), (b) large skull probably engendered high maternal-infant mortality without modern medicine (cesarians were dangerous), (c) possible inability to articulate complex language. But I think there are still traces in us today: the real interesting question is how much "folk memory" -- if there is any at all -- extends back exactly how far -- that pertains to modern humans as well as Neanders, after all, our historical memory is only about 5 K years in length.

    Replies: @Neil Templeton, @Glossy, @Neil Templeton, @Peter Akuleyev, @Romanian, @Mr. Anon

    Maybe they were outbreeders who wanted diversity and multiculturalism and got it good and hard from the Cro-Magnons that eventually replaced them, with some genetic material as remnant?

  27. @SPMoore8
    @purpleslog

    "Neandergal" is the word of the day. Cave chicks may have dug cro magnons with dogs, but I imagine a Neanderthal would have gotten wise and made some cat cave paintings. I am sure such a Neander would have had no shortage of ladies coming up to his cave to view his etchings.

    Replies: @Romanian

    Stendhal syndrome made them easier to mount, without the classic caveman club to the head.

    • Agree: SPMoore8
    • Replies: @yaqub the mad scientist
    @Romanian

    Thumbs up for Stendhal mention. ISteve discussion could use a bit more literary references, particularly from Stendhal.

  28. In time, the Neander folk will prove to be a hoax. My people have been unjustly framed.

    Seriously, I’d like to have a beer with a Neanderthal dude or dudette, if I could. Something tells me they were A-ok.

  29. @Romanian
    @SPMoore8

    Stendhal syndrome made them easier to mount, without the classic caveman club to the head.

    Replies: @yaqub the mad scientist

    Thumbs up for Stendhal mention. ISteve discussion could use a bit more literary references, particularly from Stendhal.

  30. The original sanctuary of Skull and Bones.

  31. @SPMoore8
    I won't be surprised if this discovery pans out.

    I think "Neander Pride" works better; there should be the usual promotional materials, bumper stickers, t-shirts, coffee cups. What we really need is a flag ......

    My theory about Neander disappearance involves: (a) small numbers to begin with (inefficient breeders, compare rhinos and deer), (b) large skull probably engendered high maternal-infant mortality without modern medicine (cesarians were dangerous), (c) possible inability to articulate complex language. But I think there are still traces in us today: the real interesting question is how much "folk memory" -- if there is any at all -- extends back exactly how far -- that pertains to modern humans as well as Neanders, after all, our historical memory is only about 5 K years in length.

    Replies: @Neil Templeton, @Glossy, @Neil Templeton, @Peter Akuleyev, @Romanian, @Mr. Anon

    “I think “Neander Pride” works better; there should be the usual promotional materials, bumper stickers, t-shirts, coffee cups. What we really need is a flag ……”

    LGBTN. Is it possible to be neander-fluid? Can I identify as a Neanderthal?

  32. @The most deplorable one
    I tell you, the Pak came and wiped out the Neanderthals for us.

    Replies: @anonymous

    Solidarity, fellow Pak breeder mutants!

  33. @Neil Templeton
    @SPMoore8

    My theory is that Neandertals had fringe sexual relations with small headed humans. As the Neandertal genes spread throughout the human population, the women of that population died in great numbers while giving birth to large headed babies. The resulting shortage of women, in time, led to women becoming strongly hypergamous to take advantage of the man surplus.

    Concurrently, men evolved mating characteristics to accommodate the reduced supply of women and a corresponding dramatic increase in the magnitude and severity of shit testing and other forms of sexual separation functions. When the human and Neandertal populations met once again, the sexually wise men stole the Neander females away, leaving the Neander males to brood over campfires within their stalagmite shrines, wondering what the hell happened.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon

    “When the human and Neandertal populations met once again, the sexually wise men stole the Neander females away, leaving the Neander males to brood over campfires within their stalagmite shrines, wondering what the hell happened.”

    And they didn’t even have WoW or anime to console themselves with.

    • Replies: @Stan Adams
    @Mr. Anon

    Life has never been better for sexless omegas than it is today.

    I'm not kidding. Porn and video games make life a lot more bearable for guys who can't get laid.

    Replies: @rod1963, @reiner Tor

  34. “A plausible explanation is that this was a meeting place for some type of ritual social behavior”

    When archaeologists have no idea why something exists it’s always for “ritual/ceremonial use!”

  35. When I used to teach science to New York City 7th graders, I would do one pure lecture a year (7th graders aren’t going to sit still for a lecture, in general), about stages in hominid evolution. The kids liked it– I had a bunch of slides of different stages of hand axes and skulls and archeological sites, and then of Cro-Magnon art and technology.

    I made a big deal about how Neanderthals had bigger brains than modern humans, and had some evidence of ritual behavior, but that we were able to displace them with greater group coordination and probably more advanced language. That was before we knew that AMH had interbred with Neanderthals, and more specifically before we knew that some of the students would have had Neanderthal ancestry and some would have none.

    Not sure I’d teach that lesson the same way any more.

    • Replies: @matt
    @Spotted Toad


    I made a big deal about how Neanderthals had bigger brains than modern humans
     
    You should have qualified this by adding that

    Neanderthals had significantly larger visual systems than contemporary AMHs (indexed by orbital volume) and that when this, along with their greater body mass, is taken into account, Neanderthals have significantly smaller adjusted endocranial capacities than contemporary AMHs.
     
    http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/280/1758/20130168
  36. @Anonymous
    175,000 years ago.

    An awful, awful long time ago buried in the unfathomable depths of prehistory.

    The upshot from this is that the dogmatic 'out of Africa' scenario of sapien origins, which posits a 'recent' common origin of *all* modern humans from a home in the African continent, must be formally junked by all serious open minded thinkers on the subject.

    If there is another trite 'just-so' cuddly PC theory to replace it is doubtful, but the long long story of sapien origins is a damned sight more convoluted, ancient and mysterious than some would have it.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    The dates for some homo sapien sapiens leaving Africa varies between older claims of 60K B.P. and more recent claims of 100k B.P. but the OOA theory itself is pretty robust. The article mentions Homo Sapien Neanderthalensis , not Homo sapien Sapiens (Anatomically Modern Humans).

  37. @purpleslog
    I find interesting the recent hypothesis that neanderthals were out competed by homo sapiens teaming with wolf-dogs (a big advantage). Perhaps having a cool wolf-dog at your side also made those early male home sapiens look cool to the sexy neandergals. I know the gals flock around me when I am out and about with my sister's golden retriever.

    Replies: @SPMoore8, @ben tillman

    I find interesting the recent hypothesis that neanderthals were out competed by homo sapiens teaming with wolf-dogs (a big advantage).

    Seems unlikely.

    • Replies: @Sean
    @ben tillman

    Europeans once attributed ridiculous levels of intelligence to gorillas, now they do the same to Neanderthals whose greatest achievement was fixing flint points on sticks spears. A modern human hunter gatherer of 14,000 years ago found at Villabruna was performing advanced oral hygiene by cleaning out a cavity http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3165079/Did-prehistoric-humans-use-DENTISTS-14-000-year-old-tooth-decay-scraped-sharpened-stone.html.

    Modem humans kill for fun, and did not need hunting dogs to extirpate Neanderthals' species. I think the recent evidence shows the ancestors of today's domestic dogs were a now extinct breed of wolf. Central European sites dating from 25,000 years ago suggest the wolf to dog breeding started from wolves' having ritual significance for early man . The wolf -dogs slowly being domesticated were kept kept confined and had their bones broken, and were apparently tied up and burnt alive as sacrifices, not taken on hunting trips. However wolf or dog rituals had great significance for the Indo Europeans. Another hint, like the surprisingly old (oldest so far) and western European R1b1 of Villabruna (who also has the earliest known blue eyes, and hair lightening/reddening) that the Indo Europeans may have been partly a back migration.

    Anyway, dogs are not that smart. It is part of their charm.

    Replies: @SPMoore8, @ben tillman

  38. I am also a redhead like the Neanderthals, I think I should be entitled to affirmative action as part of the long-oppressed exterminated Neanderthal minority, just like Obama was entitled to affirmative action because he looks vaguely similar to the descendants of black slaves.

    • Replies: @Romanian
    @reiner Tor

    Do reddish beards count?

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  39. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Glossy
    @SPMoore8

    the real interesting question is how much “folk memory” — if there is any at all — extends back exactly how far

    I'm not aware of any mythology that alludes to the Ice Ages or to the Neanderthals.

    My 23AndMe page used to show the percentage of my ancestry that's attributable to the Neanderthals. That seems to have disappeared, replaced by the statement that I have 237 Neanderthal genetic variants. The 23AndMe record holder has 387 variants. I'd love to see a picture of him. No, I don't expect him to look like Nikolay Valuev, but still, it would be interesting to see that guy.

    Replies: @SPMoore8, @anon

    I’m not aware of any mythology that alludes to the Ice Ages or to the Neanderthals.

    Giant myths imo.

    There is *some* surviving ancestry in Europeans old enough.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3569545/The-founding-fathers-Europe-DNA-reveals-Europeans-related-group-lived-Belgium-35-000-years-ago.html

    so maybe ancient stories got passed down

    but personally i find more likely, if
    – neanderthals were cold adapted
    – humans and neanderthals mixed
    – neanderthal dna was generally selected against except the really good bits
    then the neanderthal dna might provide more advantage and thus survive longer in colder regions: latitude or altitude, so those legends may have come from human tribes that were say 5% neanderthal living next to mountain people who were at the time still say 15% neanderthal and still had a distinctly different phentotype.

    A whole tribe of Valuevs could easily give rise to giant myths imo.

    #

    The upshot from this is that the dogmatic ‘out of Africa’ scenario of sapien origins, which posits a ‘recent’ common origin of *all* modern humans from a home in the African continent, must be formally junked by all serious open minded thinkers on the subject.

    Isn’t it still mostly true but instead of

    – OoA replacing all the various archaic hominids that lived in Eurasia previously

    it’s more

    – OoA mixing with the various regional archaic hominids that lived in Eurasia previously and picking up genes from them that were critical for each region

    ?

  40. @AP
    @Peter Akuleyev

    This makes sense but unfortunately is probably not the case - modern Europeans generally aren't descended from the first homo sapiens who replaced the Neanderthals in Europe, but from later waves who replaced those (modern European Neanderthal ancestry comes from mixing that occurred long before the descendants came to Europe).

    http://sciencenordic.com/history-rewritten-europeans-were-%E2%80%9Cborn%E2%80%9D-bronze-age

    Replies: @celt darnell, @Paul Mendez

    Fear of “the boogeyman” who lives in the forest could be an instinctive fear, like chicks that instinctively hide when a hawk flies overhead.

    Closer to home, many human children are instinctively afraid of the dark, spiders and snakes. These are probably genetically programmed behaviors from our distant past.

    Google “Neanderthal Predation Theory.” I’m not sure I buy the whole thing, but it does make you think.

    • Replies: @Paul Mendez
    @Paul Mendez

    http://themandus.org

    , @SPMoore8
    @Paul Mendez

    You mean the theory that the Neanderthals were man eaters: that explains "Fee Fie Fo Fum, etc." as well as ogres that eat humans.

    I really don't know how much continuity of historical memory there is. I'd like to think it goes back to the Neanderthals and I'd like to think it was communicated by language and folklore. The alternative is that it was "transmitted" genetically or "epigenetically." Again, I don't know, but it's interesting to speculate about.

    Here's a quote about the man eating Neanders:



    Eurasian Neanderthals hunted, killed and cannibalised early humans for 50,000 years in an area of the Middle East known as the Mediterranean Levant. Because the two species were sexually compatible, Eurasian Neanderthals also abducted and raped human females…. this prolonged period of cannibalistic and sexual predation began about 100,000 years ago and that by 50,000 years ago, the human population in the Levant was reduced to as few as 50 individuals.
     
    http://sciblogs.co.nz/bioblog/2010/10/31/killer-neandertals-does-this-one-really-stack-up/

    and check out the website it refers to, in particular, the illustrations which are, uh, remarkable:

    http://themandus.org/

    Replies: @ben tillman

  41. @Paul Mendez
    @AP

    Fear of "the boogeyman" who lives in the forest could be an instinctive fear, like chicks that instinctively hide when a hawk flies overhead.

    Closer to home, many human children are instinctively afraid of the dark, spiders and snakes. These are probably genetically programmed behaviors from our distant past.

    Google "Neanderthal Predation Theory." I'm not sure I buy the whole thing, but it does make you think.

    Replies: @Paul Mendez, @SPMoore8

  42. @Paul Mendez
    @AP

    Fear of "the boogeyman" who lives in the forest could be an instinctive fear, like chicks that instinctively hide when a hawk flies overhead.

    Closer to home, many human children are instinctively afraid of the dark, spiders and snakes. These are probably genetically programmed behaviors from our distant past.

    Google "Neanderthal Predation Theory." I'm not sure I buy the whole thing, but it does make you think.

    Replies: @Paul Mendez, @SPMoore8

    You mean the theory that the Neanderthals were man eaters: that explains “Fee Fie Fo Fum, etc.” as well as ogres that eat humans.

    I really don’t know how much continuity of historical memory there is. I’d like to think it goes back to the Neanderthals and I’d like to think it was communicated by language and folklore. The alternative is that it was “transmitted” genetically or “epigenetically.” Again, I don’t know, but it’s interesting to speculate about.

    Here’s a quote about the man eating Neanders:

    Eurasian Neanderthals hunted, killed and cannibalised early humans for 50,000 years in an area of the Middle East known as the Mediterranean Levant. Because the two species were sexually compatible, Eurasian Neanderthals also abducted and raped human females…. this prolonged period of cannibalistic and sexual predation began about 100,000 years ago and that by 50,000 years ago, the human population in the Levant was reduced to as few as 50 individuals.

    http://sciblogs.co.nz/bioblog/2010/10/31/killer-neandertals-does-this-one-really-stack-up/

    and check out the website it refers to, in particular, the illustrations which are, uh, remarkable:

    http://themandus.org/

    • Replies: @ben tillman
    @SPMoore8


    You mean the theory that the Neanderthals were man eaters....
     
    Not a theory. It's an outrageous fantasy contrived to sell books.

    Replies: @SPMoore8

  43. @SPMoore8
    @Paul Mendez

    You mean the theory that the Neanderthals were man eaters: that explains "Fee Fie Fo Fum, etc." as well as ogres that eat humans.

    I really don't know how much continuity of historical memory there is. I'd like to think it goes back to the Neanderthals and I'd like to think it was communicated by language and folklore. The alternative is that it was "transmitted" genetically or "epigenetically." Again, I don't know, but it's interesting to speculate about.

    Here's a quote about the man eating Neanders:



    Eurasian Neanderthals hunted, killed and cannibalised early humans for 50,000 years in an area of the Middle East known as the Mediterranean Levant. Because the two species were sexually compatible, Eurasian Neanderthals also abducted and raped human females…. this prolonged period of cannibalistic and sexual predation began about 100,000 years ago and that by 50,000 years ago, the human population in the Levant was reduced to as few as 50 individuals.
     
    http://sciblogs.co.nz/bioblog/2010/10/31/killer-neandertals-does-this-one-really-stack-up/

    and check out the website it refers to, in particular, the illustrations which are, uh, remarkable:

    http://themandus.org/

    Replies: @ben tillman

    You mean the theory that the Neanderthals were man eaters….

    Not a theory. It’s an outrageous fantasy contrived to sell books.

    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    @ben tillman

    Why would I want to buy the book about Neanderthal Predation Theory, when I can get the pictures on the Intertubes for free? That's the only part that's interesting to me, although, on second thought I'm wondering if maybe the pictures are racist, since they imply a predator race of Neanderthals with remarkably dark skin (and remarkably small genitalia). Also, the sneer seems a rather odd physical characteristic:

    http://themandus.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/neanderthal-human-body-comparison.jpg

    http://themandus.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/neanderthal_front.jpg

    http://themandus.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/neanderthal_with_spear.jpg

    Replies: @Paul Mendez

  44. Sean says:
    @ben tillman
    @purpleslog


    I find interesting the recent hypothesis that neanderthals were out competed by homo sapiens teaming with wolf-dogs (a big advantage).
     
    Seems unlikely.

    Replies: @Sean

    Europeans once attributed ridiculous levels of intelligence to gorillas, now they do the same to Neanderthals whose greatest achievement was fixing flint points on sticks spears. A modern human hunter gatherer of 14,000 years ago found at Villabruna was performing advanced oral hygiene by cleaning out a cavity http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3165079/Did-prehistoric-humans-use-DENTISTS-14-000-year-old-tooth-decay-scraped-sharpened-stone.html.

    Modem humans kill for fun, and did not need hunting dogs to extirpate Neanderthals’ species. I think the recent evidence shows the ancestors of today’s domestic dogs were a now extinct breed of wolf. Central European sites dating from 25,000 years ago suggest the wolf to dog breeding started from wolves’ having ritual significance for early man . The wolf -dogs slowly being domesticated were kept kept confined and had their bones broken, and were apparently tied up and burnt alive as sacrifices, not taken on hunting trips. However wolf or dog rituals had great significance for the Indo Europeans. Another hint, like the surprisingly old (oldest so far) and western European R1b1 of Villabruna (who also has the earliest known blue eyes, and hair lightening/reddening) that the Indo Europeans may have been partly a back migration.

    Anyway, dogs are not that smart. It is part of their charm.

    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    @Sean

    By "back migration" of IE I assume you mean that they were in Italy and then wandered back to Central Asia? What about the Tocharian languages and the blond, redheaded and blue eyed mummies from Western China (Tarim Basin, same site as Tocharian lingo)?

    I don't have a bone to pick, I'm just curious.

    What seems sort of obvious to me is that the "racial differences" among mankind would be easier to understand if we assumed that Modern Humans emerged from Africa and then interbred with surrounding hominids, thus, e.g., Neanderthals in Europe and Central Asia, Denisovans in East Asia, and so on.

    Again, it's all highly speculative. But it's fun.

    Replies: @PiltdownMan, @Sean

    , @ben tillman
    @Sean


    Europeans once attributed ridiculous levels of intelligence to gorillas, now they do the same to Neanderthals whose greatest achievement was fixing flint points on sticks spears.
     
    That's an amazing thing to say. How could you possibly think you know that?

    Replies: @Sean

  45. @ben tillman
    @SPMoore8


    You mean the theory that the Neanderthals were man eaters....
     
    Not a theory. It's an outrageous fantasy contrived to sell books.

    Replies: @SPMoore8

    Why would I want to buy the book about Neanderthal Predation Theory, when I can get the pictures on the Intertubes for free? That’s the only part that’s interesting to me, although, on second thought I’m wondering if maybe the pictures are racist, since they imply a predator race of Neanderthals with remarkably dark skin (and remarkably small genitalia). Also, the sneer seems a rather odd physical characteristic:

    • Replies: @Paul Mendez
    @SPMoore8

    Yes, the argument that Neanderthals definitely did not look like us is the most compelling part of the book.

    Using Human facial feature metrics on Neanderthal skulls is guaranteed to give you a human-looking result. You can download the chapter on how the alternative Neanderthal facial reconstruction was made for free. It does give you something to think about.

  46. @boogerbently
    "since estimated dates and interpretations tend to come and go"

    Yeah, these previous guesstimates were off over 800%.

    "Their date? 176,500 years ago, give or take a few millennia.

    “When I announced the age to Jacques, he asked me to repeat it because it was so incredible,” says Verheyden. Outside Bruniquel Cave, the earliest, unambiguous human constructions are just 20,000 years old. "

    Replies: @5371

    [Outside Bruniquel Cave, the earliest, unambiguous human constructions are just 20,000 years old]

    That’s nonsense. There’s a hearth at Terra Amata near Nice dated to 400 thousand years ago.

  47. @Sean
    @ben tillman

    Europeans once attributed ridiculous levels of intelligence to gorillas, now they do the same to Neanderthals whose greatest achievement was fixing flint points on sticks spears. A modern human hunter gatherer of 14,000 years ago found at Villabruna was performing advanced oral hygiene by cleaning out a cavity http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3165079/Did-prehistoric-humans-use-DENTISTS-14-000-year-old-tooth-decay-scraped-sharpened-stone.html.

    Modem humans kill for fun, and did not need hunting dogs to extirpate Neanderthals' species. I think the recent evidence shows the ancestors of today's domestic dogs were a now extinct breed of wolf. Central European sites dating from 25,000 years ago suggest the wolf to dog breeding started from wolves' having ritual significance for early man . The wolf -dogs slowly being domesticated were kept kept confined and had their bones broken, and were apparently tied up and burnt alive as sacrifices, not taken on hunting trips. However wolf or dog rituals had great significance for the Indo Europeans. Another hint, like the surprisingly old (oldest so far) and western European R1b1 of Villabruna (who also has the earliest known blue eyes, and hair lightening/reddening) that the Indo Europeans may have been partly a back migration.

    Anyway, dogs are not that smart. It is part of their charm.

    Replies: @SPMoore8, @ben tillman

    By “back migration” of IE I assume you mean that they were in Italy and then wandered back to Central Asia? What about the Tocharian languages and the blond, redheaded and blue eyed mummies from Western China (Tarim Basin, same site as Tocharian lingo)?

    I don’t have a bone to pick, I’m just curious.

    What seems sort of obvious to me is that the “racial differences” among mankind would be easier to understand if we assumed that Modern Humans emerged from Africa and then interbred with surrounding hominids, thus, e.g., Neanderthals in Europe and Central Asia, Denisovans in East Asia, and so on.

    Again, it’s all highly speculative. But it’s fun.

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
    @SPMoore8


    ...blue eyed mummies from Western China
     
    Blue eyed? Surely the eyes don't survive mummification?
    , @Sean
    @SPMoore8

    You do not think it strange that several thousand years before before the Indo European invasion there was a fellow in a mountain hunting camp of north Italy with the oldest known blue eyes, which are acknowledged to have originated in Europe, and he also happened to bear the oldest known example of the supposedly Indo European haplogroup R1b?

    Re the origin of human races you are a victim of modern reconstruction perfidy that makes Neanderthals look like they weren't. The latest evidence is of a slow purge of Neanderthal genes from the modern human genome. Europeans owe nothing to them.

    Replies: @SPMoore8, @anon

  48. It seems odd to me that not a single lithic artifact has been found. Flint debitage followed humans wherever they went, shedding off like dandruff.

    I’ve seen prehistoric hunting blinds that look a lot like these, which could make sense for preying on cave bears, but the lack of lithics makes that scenario unlikely.

  49. @reiner Tor
    I am also a redhead like the Neanderthals, I think I should be entitled to affirmative action as part of the long-oppressed exterminated Neanderthal minority, just like Obama was entitled to affirmative action because he looks vaguely similar to the descendants of black slaves.

    Replies: @Romanian

    Do reddish beards count?

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Romanian

    I hope so, then I could qualify my dad as well!

  50. @Romanian
    @reiner Tor

    Do reddish beards count?

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    I hope so, then I could qualify my dad as well!

  51. @Trelane
    To me the Neanderthal conjures images of Warren Oats and Lee Marvin.

    How can you not admire the Neanderthal?

    Famous neanderthals such as Bon Scott of AC/DC and Keith Moon of the Who merely add to this mystique of the neanderthal.

    But what about neanderthal women? Anybody here know of any? What's a neanderthal woman look like?

    Replies: @AP, @dr kill, @Buffalo Joe

    The womenfolk closely resemble the trigglypuff girl at Rutgers. The northeastern US is a hotbed of Neanderr-lookers, IYKWIMAITYD. Woof woof

  52. I have a scholarly tome about Meso America and the early Indians that inhabited it. There is a discussion concerning the discovery of some artifacts and the subsequent dating of them. The two scholars differ to the tune of 680 years….but that is dismissed as not that important to the discovery. I am sorry but 680 years in almost seven centuries. Think of what has been accomplished in the last seven centuries and then dismiss it. Scientist, especially archeologists can be strange. There is a program on Discovery or the History channel called Ancient Aliens. The participants ascribe a lot of ruins discovered in Central and South America to space aliens. Of course while the aliens were building Machu Pichu, Europeans were erecting cathedral, with 160 foot high naves, flying buttresses and stain glass windows.

  53. @SPMoore8
    @ben tillman

    Why would I want to buy the book about Neanderthal Predation Theory, when I can get the pictures on the Intertubes for free? That's the only part that's interesting to me, although, on second thought I'm wondering if maybe the pictures are racist, since they imply a predator race of Neanderthals with remarkably dark skin (and remarkably small genitalia). Also, the sneer seems a rather odd physical characteristic:

    http://themandus.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/neanderthal-human-body-comparison.jpg

    http://themandus.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/neanderthal_front.jpg

    http://themandus.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/neanderthal_with_spear.jpg

    Replies: @Paul Mendez

    Yes, the argument that Neanderthals definitely did not look like us is the most compelling part of the book.

    Using Human facial feature metrics on Neanderthal skulls is guaranteed to give you a human-looking result. You can download the chapter on how the alternative Neanderthal facial reconstruction was made for free. It does give you something to think about.

  54. @Trelane
    To me the Neanderthal conjures images of Warren Oats and Lee Marvin.

    How can you not admire the Neanderthal?

    Famous neanderthals such as Bon Scott of AC/DC and Keith Moon of the Who merely add to this mystique of the neanderthal.

    But what about neanderthal women? Anybody here know of any? What's a neanderthal woman look like?

    Replies: @AP, @dr kill, @Buffalo Joe

    They look like this…. O-(8-< Of course she's lying down, but based on a cave drawing.

  55. @Mr. Anon
    @Neil Templeton

    "When the human and Neandertal populations met once again, the sexually wise men stole the Neander females away, leaving the Neander males to brood over campfires within their stalagmite shrines, wondering what the hell happened."

    And they didn't even have WoW or anime to console themselves with.

    Replies: @Stan Adams

    Life has never been better for sexless omegas than it is today.

    I’m not kidding. Porn and video games make life a lot more bearable for guys who can’t get laid.

    • Replies: @rod1963
    @Stan Adams

    Yeah thats a slow form of euthanasia: Sports, video games and porn. A decade of that and they morph into neckbeards and dockers wearing doughy pantsloads with the social skills of a baboon that are guaranteed to scare off any female.

    Replies: @Stan Adams

    , @reiner Tor
    @Stan Adams

    Until the 20th century a man rarely stayed sexless. If you had a half decent income, a parent willing to marry off his/her daughter arranged to introduce the daughter to you.

  56. @vinny
    France has magic dirt!

    Replies: @Father O'Hara

    The first He Man Woman Haters Club?

  57. Lonely horny Neander-guys. Rituals. circular. Why it’s a circle, jerk.

  58. matt says:
    @Spotted Toad
    When I used to teach science to New York City 7th graders, I would do one pure lecture a year (7th graders aren't going to sit still for a lecture, in general), about stages in hominid evolution. The kids liked it-- I had a bunch of slides of different stages of hand axes and skulls and archeological sites, and then of Cro-Magnon art and technology.

    I made a big deal about how Neanderthals had bigger brains than modern humans, and had some evidence of ritual behavior, but that we were able to displace them with greater group coordination and probably more advanced language. That was before we knew that AMH had interbred with Neanderthals, and more specifically before we knew that some of the students would have had Neanderthal ancestry and some would have none.

    Not sure I'd teach that lesson the same way any more.

    Replies: @matt

    I made a big deal about how Neanderthals had bigger brains than modern humans

    You should have qualified this by adding that

    Neanderthals had significantly larger visual systems than contemporary AMHs (indexed by orbital volume) and that when this, along with their greater body mass, is taken into account, Neanderthals have significantly smaller adjusted endocranial capacities than contemporary AMHs.

    http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/280/1758/20130168

  59. @Sean
    @ben tillman

    Europeans once attributed ridiculous levels of intelligence to gorillas, now they do the same to Neanderthals whose greatest achievement was fixing flint points on sticks spears. A modern human hunter gatherer of 14,000 years ago found at Villabruna was performing advanced oral hygiene by cleaning out a cavity http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3165079/Did-prehistoric-humans-use-DENTISTS-14-000-year-old-tooth-decay-scraped-sharpened-stone.html.

    Modem humans kill for fun, and did not need hunting dogs to extirpate Neanderthals' species. I think the recent evidence shows the ancestors of today's domestic dogs were a now extinct breed of wolf. Central European sites dating from 25,000 years ago suggest the wolf to dog breeding started from wolves' having ritual significance for early man . The wolf -dogs slowly being domesticated were kept kept confined and had their bones broken, and were apparently tied up and burnt alive as sacrifices, not taken on hunting trips. However wolf or dog rituals had great significance for the Indo Europeans. Another hint, like the surprisingly old (oldest so far) and western European R1b1 of Villabruna (who also has the earliest known blue eyes, and hair lightening/reddening) that the Indo Europeans may have been partly a back migration.

    Anyway, dogs are not that smart. It is part of their charm.

    Replies: @SPMoore8, @ben tillman

    Europeans once attributed ridiculous levels of intelligence to gorillas, now they do the same to Neanderthals whose greatest achievement was fixing flint points on sticks spears.

    That’s an amazing thing to say. How could you possibly think you know that?

    • Replies: @Sean
    @ben tillman

    No evidence of sewn hide clothing, so unless there was biodegradable Gorilla Tape in use during the Ice Age, Neanderthals were ape-like (and furry).

  60. @Grandpa Jack
    Probably reading too much into it- it's likely just the ruins from some of those damn French Neanderthals storming some ancient Bastille or something....

    Replies: @Grandpa Jack

    Nah, the fires, ruins, rubbish- more likely some foreign immigrant early homosapiens staying in the Banlieues….

  61. @SPMoore8
    @Sean

    By "back migration" of IE I assume you mean that they were in Italy and then wandered back to Central Asia? What about the Tocharian languages and the blond, redheaded and blue eyed mummies from Western China (Tarim Basin, same site as Tocharian lingo)?

    I don't have a bone to pick, I'm just curious.

    What seems sort of obvious to me is that the "racial differences" among mankind would be easier to understand if we assumed that Modern Humans emerged from Africa and then interbred with surrounding hominids, thus, e.g., Neanderthals in Europe and Central Asia, Denisovans in East Asia, and so on.

    Again, it's all highly speculative. But it's fun.

    Replies: @PiltdownMan, @Sean

    …blue eyed mummies from Western China

    Blue eyed? Surely the eyes don’t survive mummification?

  62. Africa is the source of all mankind.

    We know this to be true because so many lame ass intellectual fraudsters are dependent on it.

    Don’t mess with their franchise.

  63. @Stan Adams
    @Mr. Anon

    Life has never been better for sexless omegas than it is today.

    I'm not kidding. Porn and video games make life a lot more bearable for guys who can't get laid.

    Replies: @rod1963, @reiner Tor

    Yeah thats a slow form of euthanasia: Sports, video games and porn. A decade of that and they morph into neckbeards and dockers wearing doughy pantsloads with the social skills of a baboon that are guaranteed to scare off any female.

    • Replies: @Stan Adams
    @rod1963

    There aren't a whole lot of high-quality women walking around these days.

    Some weeks ago, the mailman brought me a glossy JCPenney brochure advertising the new plus-sized line. I was about to toss it along with the rest of the junk mail, but when I saw how ... ample the model on the cover was, my curiosity got the better of me and I opened it up.

    When I saw this picture, and gazed upon the lady on the right, I burst out laughing:
    http://bizbeatblog.dallasnews.com/files/2016/04/DARON_DEAN_TINDER_BADHESHA_SOMMER_GREEN_JESSICA_GU_49971496.jpg

    My first thought was, "That's pretty grim."

    But I showed it to a couple of twentysomething guys - not studs, but not losers, either - and they didn't see anything funny about it. One guy said he'd hit every one of them.

    I see a lot of young guys who are noticeably more attractive than their girlfriends - say, a 5 or 6 guy dating a 3 or 4 girl with a lot of extra padding. I guess that's the best they can get.

  64. @Stan Adams
    @Mr. Anon

    Life has never been better for sexless omegas than it is today.

    I'm not kidding. Porn and video games make life a lot more bearable for guys who can't get laid.

    Replies: @rod1963, @reiner Tor

    Until the 20th century a man rarely stayed sexless. If you had a half decent income, a parent willing to marry off his/her daughter arranged to introduce the daughter to you.

  65. @rod1963
    @Stan Adams

    Yeah thats a slow form of euthanasia: Sports, video games and porn. A decade of that and they morph into neckbeards and dockers wearing doughy pantsloads with the social skills of a baboon that are guaranteed to scare off any female.

    Replies: @Stan Adams

    There aren’t a whole lot of high-quality women walking around these days.

    Some weeks ago, the mailman brought me a glossy JCPenney brochure advertising the new plus-sized line. I was about to toss it along with the rest of the junk mail, but when I saw how … ample the model on the cover was, my curiosity got the better of me and I opened it up.

    When I saw this picture, and gazed upon the lady on the right, I burst out laughing:

    My first thought was, “That’s pretty grim.”

    But I showed it to a couple of twentysomething guys – not studs, but not losers, either – and they didn’t see anything funny about it. One guy said he’d hit every one of them.

    I see a lot of young guys who are noticeably more attractive than their girlfriends – say, a 5 or 6 guy dating a 3 or 4 girl with a lot of extra padding. I guess that’s the best they can get.

  66. @ben tillman
    @Sean


    Europeans once attributed ridiculous levels of intelligence to gorillas, now they do the same to Neanderthals whose greatest achievement was fixing flint points on sticks spears.
     
    That's an amazing thing to say. How could you possibly think you know that?

    Replies: @Sean

    No evidence of sewn hide clothing, so unless there was biodegradable Gorilla Tape in use during the Ice Age, Neanderthals were ape-like (and furry).

  67. Sean says:
    @SPMoore8
    @Sean

    By "back migration" of IE I assume you mean that they were in Italy and then wandered back to Central Asia? What about the Tocharian languages and the blond, redheaded and blue eyed mummies from Western China (Tarim Basin, same site as Tocharian lingo)?

    I don't have a bone to pick, I'm just curious.

    What seems sort of obvious to me is that the "racial differences" among mankind would be easier to understand if we assumed that Modern Humans emerged from Africa and then interbred with surrounding hominids, thus, e.g., Neanderthals in Europe and Central Asia, Denisovans in East Asia, and so on.

    Again, it's all highly speculative. But it's fun.

    Replies: @PiltdownMan, @Sean

    You do not think it strange that several thousand years before before the Indo European invasion there was a fellow in a mountain hunting camp of north Italy with the oldest known blue eyes, which are acknowledged to have originated in Europe, and he also happened to bear the oldest known example of the supposedly Indo European haplogroup R1b?

    Re the origin of human races you are a victim of modern reconstruction perfidy that makes Neanderthals look like they weren’t. The latest evidence is of a slow purge of Neanderthal genes from the modern human genome. Europeans owe nothing to them.

    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    @Sean

    I am not a victim of "reconstruction perfidy", I have held that the Neanderthal disappearance was probably due to inbreeding for about 45 years. I don't know what you are trying to say: are you saying that modern homo sapiens evolved independently in Europe? You have to explain the absence of Neander DNA in Sub-Saharan Africa. As for the origin of IE, I really don't see how one can avoid a beginning either in the Pontic steppes or in Turkey, it depends on whether you think its expansion was due to horse mastery or agriculture. I don't know.

    Neanderthals were in Europe for hundreds of thousands of years. There's no reason to presume that they would have maintained dark skin during that long period. There's also no reason to assume that they were furry gorillas. But I'd be interested to see what sources you are referencing.

    Replies: @Sean, @Sean

    , @anon
    @Sean


    The latest evidence is of a slow purge of Neanderthal genes from the modern human genome. Europeans owe nothing to them.
     
    nonsense

    what percentage of Tibetan DNA is the Denisova high altitude genes?

    how critical are those genes?

    Replies: @Sean

  68. @Sean
    @SPMoore8

    You do not think it strange that several thousand years before before the Indo European invasion there was a fellow in a mountain hunting camp of north Italy with the oldest known blue eyes, which are acknowledged to have originated in Europe, and he also happened to bear the oldest known example of the supposedly Indo European haplogroup R1b?

    Re the origin of human races you are a victim of modern reconstruction perfidy that makes Neanderthals look like they weren't. The latest evidence is of a slow purge of Neanderthal genes from the modern human genome. Europeans owe nothing to them.

    Replies: @SPMoore8, @anon

    I am not a victim of “reconstruction perfidy”, I have held that the Neanderthal disappearance was probably due to inbreeding for about 45 years. I don’t know what you are trying to say: are you saying that modern homo sapiens evolved independently in Europe? You have to explain the absence of Neander DNA in Sub-Saharan Africa. As for the origin of IE, I really don’t see how one can avoid a beginning either in the Pontic steppes or in Turkey, it depends on whether you think its expansion was due to horse mastery or agriculture. I don’t know.

    Neanderthals were in Europe for hundreds of thousands of years. There’s no reason to presume that they would have maintained dark skin during that long period. There’s also no reason to assume that they were furry gorillas. But I’d be interested to see what sources you are referencing.

    • Replies: @Sean
    @SPMoore8

    http://energy.ruc.dk/Energy%20use%20by%20Eem%20Neanderthals.pdf


    http://www.pinniped.net/snodgrass2009neandertals.pdf

    Staying warm without clothes takes a lot of hard to come by calories so wasting calories in shivering is silly.There’s reason to assume that they were furry gorillas.

    Neanderthals used spears with flint head and from their massively strong right forearm bones from a life of gripping so they used stabbing spears . Their skeletons show they stabbed from below shoulder level and they could not run or jump at all well, so they were ambushers who collectively laid low and tried to blend in, (a brownish fur coating of fur, which many forrest animals have, would be useful for camouflage) and popped up to surround the prey animal and try to drive it towards a male who did the killing . They had fingers with a type of fine grooving of bone that infant chimps use to cling onto their mothers fur. As already said there is no evidence at their sites of them having needles/ awls (although they used twigs as toothpicks) despite the inestimable boon of insulating clothes in the ice age and the uselessness of a draped hide. Either they they were nudists, or they didn't have the brains to make clothes, and suffered stress 30,000 years ago because it got too cold for them in the north. They were in Europe for hundreds of thousands of years, and both Neanderthals and Cave Bears disappeared in 10% of that time, after the CroMagnons showed up.

    The probable weapon of choice: A thrown spear.

    The evidence: A lethal wound on the remains of a Neanderthal skeleton.

    How Neanderthals met a grisly fate: devoured by humans.
    ---


    There’s no reason to presume that they would have maintained dark skin during that long period. ... But I’d be interested to see what sources you are referencing.
     
    https://www.unz.com/gnxp/phenotypic-whiteness-as-an-outcome-of-neolithic-admixture/

    tens of thousands of years after their ancestors had entered Europe , the 14,000 year old Villabruna is only the earliest known one with blue eyes .

    , @Sean
    @SPMoore8

    http://energy.ruc.dk/Energy%20use%20by%20Eem%20Neanderthals.pdf


    http://www.pinniped.net/snodgrass2009neandertals.pdf

    Staying warm without clothes takes a lot of hard to come by calories so wasting calories in shivering is silly.There’s reason to assume that they were furry gorillas.

    Neanderthals used spears with flint head and from their massively strong right forearm bones from a life of gripping so they used stabbing spears . Their skeletons show they stabbed from below shoulder level and they could not run or jump at all well, so they were ambushers who collectively laid low and tried to blend in, (a brownish fur coating of fur, which many forest animals have, would be useful for camouflage) and popped up to surround the prey animal and try to drive it towards a male who did the killing . They had fingers with a type of fine grooving of bone that infant chimps use to cling onto their mothers fur. As already said there is no evidence at their sites of them having needles/ awls (although they used twigs as toothpicks) despite the inestimable boon of insulating clothes in the ice age and the uselessness of a draped hide. Either they they were nudists, or they didn't have the brains to make clothes, and suffered stress 30,000 years ago because it got too cold for them in the north. They were in Europe for hundreds of thousands of years, and both Neanderthals and Cave Bears disappeared in 10% of that time, after the CroMagnons showed up.

    The probable weapon of choice: A thrown spear.

    The evidence: A lethal wound on the remains of a Neanderthal skeleton.

    How Neanderthals met a grisly fate: devoured by humans.
    ---


    There’s no reason to presume that they would have maintained dark skin during that long period. ... But I’d be interested to see what sources you are referencing.
     
    https://www.unz.com/gnxp/phenotypic-whiteness-as-an-outcome-of-neolithic-admixture/

    https://www.unz.com/gnxp/phenotypic-whiteness-as-an-outcome-of-neolithic-admixture/

    It has been known since 2014 that many part of Europe had people with dark skin tens of thousands of years after their ancestors had entered Europe. The 14,000 year old Villabruna is only the earliest known one with blue eyes .

    Replies: @SPMoore8

  69. Sean says:
    @SPMoore8
    @Sean

    I am not a victim of "reconstruction perfidy", I have held that the Neanderthal disappearance was probably due to inbreeding for about 45 years. I don't know what you are trying to say: are you saying that modern homo sapiens evolved independently in Europe? You have to explain the absence of Neander DNA in Sub-Saharan Africa. As for the origin of IE, I really don't see how one can avoid a beginning either in the Pontic steppes or in Turkey, it depends on whether you think its expansion was due to horse mastery or agriculture. I don't know.

    Neanderthals were in Europe for hundreds of thousands of years. There's no reason to presume that they would have maintained dark skin during that long period. There's also no reason to assume that they were furry gorillas. But I'd be interested to see what sources you are referencing.

    Replies: @Sean, @Sean

    http://energy.ruc.dk/Energy%20use%20by%20Eem%20Neanderthals.pdf

    http://www.pinniped.net/snodgrass2009neandertals.pdf

    Staying warm without clothes takes a lot of hard to come by calories so wasting calories in shivering is silly.There’s reason to assume that they were furry gorillas.

    Neanderthals used spears with flint head and from their massively strong right forearm bones from a life of gripping so they used stabbing spears . Their skeletons show they stabbed from below shoulder level and they could not run or jump at all well, so they were ambushers who collectively laid low and tried to blend in, (a brownish fur coating of fur, which many forrest animals have, would be useful for camouflage) and popped up to surround the prey animal and try to drive it towards a male who did the killing . They had fingers with a type of fine grooving of bone that infant chimps use to cling onto their mothers fur. As already said there is no evidence at their sites of them having needles/ awls (although they used twigs as toothpicks) despite the inestimable boon of insulating clothes in the ice age and the uselessness of a draped hide. Either they they were nudists, or they didn’t have the brains to make clothes, and suffered stress 30,000 years ago because it got too cold for them in the north. They were in Europe for hundreds of thousands of years, and both Neanderthals and Cave Bears disappeared in 10% of that time, after the CroMagnons showed up.

    The probable weapon of choice: A thrown spear.

    The evidence: A lethal wound on the remains of a Neanderthal skeleton.

    How Neanderthals met a grisly fate: devoured by humans.

    There’s no reason to presume that they would have maintained dark skin during that long period. … But I’d be interested to see what sources you are referencing.

    https://www.unz.com/gnxp/phenotypic-whiteness-as-an-outcome-of-neolithic-admixture/

    tens of thousands of years after their ancestors had entered Europe , the 14,000 year old Villabruna is only the earliest known one with blue eyes .

  70. Sean says:
    @SPMoore8
    @Sean

    I am not a victim of "reconstruction perfidy", I have held that the Neanderthal disappearance was probably due to inbreeding for about 45 years. I don't know what you are trying to say: are you saying that modern homo sapiens evolved independently in Europe? You have to explain the absence of Neander DNA in Sub-Saharan Africa. As for the origin of IE, I really don't see how one can avoid a beginning either in the Pontic steppes or in Turkey, it depends on whether you think its expansion was due to horse mastery or agriculture. I don't know.

    Neanderthals were in Europe for hundreds of thousands of years. There's no reason to presume that they would have maintained dark skin during that long period. There's also no reason to assume that they were furry gorillas. But I'd be interested to see what sources you are referencing.

    Replies: @Sean, @Sean

    http://energy.ruc.dk/Energy%20use%20by%20Eem%20Neanderthals.pdf

    http://www.pinniped.net/snodgrass2009neandertals.pdf

    Staying warm without clothes takes a lot of hard to come by calories so wasting calories in shivering is silly.There’s reason to assume that they were furry gorillas.

    Neanderthals used spears with flint head and from their massively strong right forearm bones from a life of gripping so they used stabbing spears . Their skeletons show they stabbed from below shoulder level and they could not run or jump at all well, so they were ambushers who collectively laid low and tried to blend in, (a brownish fur coating of fur, which many forest animals have, would be useful for camouflage) and popped up to surround the prey animal and try to drive it towards a male who did the killing . They had fingers with a type of fine grooving of bone that infant chimps use to cling onto their mothers fur. As already said there is no evidence at their sites of them having needles/ awls (although they used twigs as toothpicks) despite the inestimable boon of insulating clothes in the ice age and the uselessness of a draped hide. Either they they were nudists, or they didn’t have the brains to make clothes, and suffered stress 30,000 years ago because it got too cold for them in the north. They were in Europe for hundreds of thousands of years, and both Neanderthals and Cave Bears disappeared in 10% of that time, after the CroMagnons showed up.

    The probable weapon of choice: A thrown spear.

    The evidence: A lethal wound on the remains of a Neanderthal skeleton.

    How Neanderthals met a grisly fate: devoured by humans.

    There’s no reason to presume that they would have maintained dark skin during that long period. … But I’d be interested to see what sources you are referencing.

    https://www.unz.com/gnxp/phenotypic-whiteness-as-an-outcome-of-neolithic-admixture/

    https://www.unz.com/gnxp/phenotypic-whiteness-as-an-outcome-of-neolithic-admixture/

    It has been known since 2014 that many part of Europe had people with dark skin tens of thousands of years after their ancestors had entered Europe. The 14,000 year old Villabruna is only the earliest known one with blue eyes .

    • Agree: SPMoore8
    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    @Sean

    Thanks for the reply, but these sources do not support the concept of Neanderthal as European gorillas. For one thing, you haven't explained the DNA issue.

    The other point, in terms of skin color, goes back to the question of mutation to white skin in the first place. If it took tens of thousands of years for black Africans in Europe to mutate to white, then surely Neanderthals, who lived in Europe for hundreds of thousands of years, would have had a similar mutation.

    You also haven't clarified the issue of IE origins or what you think actually happened vis a vis the evolution of Modern Europeans and/or the evolution of IE. I'd be interested in hearing your views.

    Replies: @Sean

  71. @Sean
    @SPMoore8

    You do not think it strange that several thousand years before before the Indo European invasion there was a fellow in a mountain hunting camp of north Italy with the oldest known blue eyes, which are acknowledged to have originated in Europe, and he also happened to bear the oldest known example of the supposedly Indo European haplogroup R1b?

    Re the origin of human races you are a victim of modern reconstruction perfidy that makes Neanderthals look like they weren't. The latest evidence is of a slow purge of Neanderthal genes from the modern human genome. Europeans owe nothing to them.

    Replies: @SPMoore8, @anon

    The latest evidence is of a slow purge of Neanderthal genes from the modern human genome. Europeans owe nothing to them.

    nonsense

    what percentage of Tibetan DNA is the Denisova high altitude genes?

    how critical are those genes?

    • Replies: @Sean
    @anon

    Tibetans are not Europeans.


    http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2016/160318/ncomms10775/full/ncomms10775.html

    We use the high-quality genome from Ust′-Ishim, a 45,000-year-old modern human whose remains were found in Siberia23. Ust′-Ishim has been inferred to belong to an early Eurasian population that shared the out-of-Africa bottleneck and the Neanderthal admixture with modern Eurasians23, and that diverged from the ancestors of Western and Eastern Eurasians before (or approximately simultaneously with) their split from each other (Ust′-Ishim is equally distant to East Asians and ancient Eurasians2 [...] Our results thus indicate that genic alleles changed in frequency disproportionally in Europeans after divergence of the Ust′-Ishim population, a pattern absent in East Asians. Finally, no allele in this tail is identified as having Neandertal origin in genome-wide maps of Neandertal introgression29.
     
  72. Sean says:
    @anon
    @Sean


    The latest evidence is of a slow purge of Neanderthal genes from the modern human genome. Europeans owe nothing to them.
     
    nonsense

    what percentage of Tibetan DNA is the Denisova high altitude genes?

    how critical are those genes?

    Replies: @Sean

    Tibetans are not Europeans.

    http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2016/160318/ncomms10775/full/ncomms10775.html

    We use the high-quality genome from Ust′-Ishim, a 45,000-year-old modern human whose remains were found in Siberia23. Ust′-Ishim has been inferred to belong to an early Eurasian population that shared the out-of-Africa bottleneck and the Neanderthal admixture with modern Eurasians23, and that diverged from the ancestors of Western and Eastern Eurasians before (or approximately simultaneously with) their split from each other (Ust′-Ishim is equally distant to East Asians and ancient Eurasians2 […] Our results thus indicate that genic alleles changed in frequency disproportionally in Europeans after divergence of the Ust′-Ishim population, a pattern absent in East Asians. Finally, no allele in this tail is identified as having Neandertal origin in genome-wide maps of Neandertal introgression29.

  73. @Sean
    @SPMoore8

    http://energy.ruc.dk/Energy%20use%20by%20Eem%20Neanderthals.pdf


    http://www.pinniped.net/snodgrass2009neandertals.pdf

    Staying warm without clothes takes a lot of hard to come by calories so wasting calories in shivering is silly.There’s reason to assume that they were furry gorillas.

    Neanderthals used spears with flint head and from their massively strong right forearm bones from a life of gripping so they used stabbing spears . Their skeletons show they stabbed from below shoulder level and they could not run or jump at all well, so they were ambushers who collectively laid low and tried to blend in, (a brownish fur coating of fur, which many forest animals have, would be useful for camouflage) and popped up to surround the prey animal and try to drive it towards a male who did the killing . They had fingers with a type of fine grooving of bone that infant chimps use to cling onto their mothers fur. As already said there is no evidence at their sites of them having needles/ awls (although they used twigs as toothpicks) despite the inestimable boon of insulating clothes in the ice age and the uselessness of a draped hide. Either they they were nudists, or they didn't have the brains to make clothes, and suffered stress 30,000 years ago because it got too cold for them in the north. They were in Europe for hundreds of thousands of years, and both Neanderthals and Cave Bears disappeared in 10% of that time, after the CroMagnons showed up.

    The probable weapon of choice: A thrown spear.

    The evidence: A lethal wound on the remains of a Neanderthal skeleton.

    How Neanderthals met a grisly fate: devoured by humans.
    ---


    There’s no reason to presume that they would have maintained dark skin during that long period. ... But I’d be interested to see what sources you are referencing.
     
    https://www.unz.com/gnxp/phenotypic-whiteness-as-an-outcome-of-neolithic-admixture/

    https://www.unz.com/gnxp/phenotypic-whiteness-as-an-outcome-of-neolithic-admixture/

    It has been known since 2014 that many part of Europe had people with dark skin tens of thousands of years after their ancestors had entered Europe. The 14,000 year old Villabruna is only the earliest known one with blue eyes .

    Replies: @SPMoore8

    Thanks for the reply, but these sources do not support the concept of Neanderthal as European gorillas. For one thing, you haven’t explained the DNA issue.

    The other point, in terms of skin color, goes back to the question of mutation to white skin in the first place. If it took tens of thousands of years for black Africans in Europe to mutate to white, then surely Neanderthals, who lived in Europe for hundreds of thousands of years, would have had a similar mutation.

    You also haven’t clarified the issue of IE origins or what you think actually happened vis a vis the evolution of Modern Europeans and/or the evolution of IE. I’d be interested in hearing your views.

    • Replies: @Sean
    @SPMoore8


    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/neanderthal-skulls-grew-differently-modern-day-humans-discover-nyu-researchers-1532352

    The researchers found that the structure of bones in our heads is different to Neanderthals. In modern day humans, the inside of bones is made from osteoblasts – bone-forming cells – and the outside of the bone is made from osteoclast cells – or bone absorbing cells. However, it was found that the structure of the Neanderthal's bones was the opposite way around, with the osteoblast cells on the outside, and osteoclast cells on the inside. [...]
    Results showed that the upper jawbone of Neanderthal's were more projected than the modern day human child, because of an abundance of osteoblasts without enough osteoclast cells to counter its effect. The net result of this means a more pronounced jaw; a feature seen in ancient hominins – or apes.

    "They share with older African hominins a similar facial growth pattern," said Lacruz. "Meaning that humans deviated from the ancestral pattern. In that sense, the face that is unique is the modern human face."
     
    It's absurd to think any Neanderthals let alone a primitive one like Altamura could have the profile of Slim Pickens plus the expressive features of Warren Oates that the latest reconstruction shows. People can argue about the superficial features but look at bone.
  74. Sean says:

    Well Razib Khan keeps saying there is not much ancestry from stone age European hunter gatherers left in Modern Europe. If things like light/diverse hair and eyes and less masculine craniofacial form are extremely common in Europe today despite the original IndoEuropeans not having blue eyes ect very much, it means those must be genes of the original hunter gatherers surviving and massively expanding from an initial conquered women/ Indo European mating begining after they conquered most of Europe (and killed most of the indigenous men and plain women). Subsequently there was a slow long expansion of such genes in the patriarchal and hierarchical societies that Indo Europeans instituted).

    Re Neanderthals being like us in the adaptation they experienced after arriving in Europe:- such converging evolution is most unlikely, given the drastically different modes of existence, which would effectively be a completely different adaptive environment. The inability of the Neanderthals to live in the north despite their supposedly useful adaptations tells me Neanderthals’ problem was the cold and they solved it by in the same way other mammals did: by growing a coat of fur, so they were very limited in brainpower. They were hunted like animals, and the early reconstructions of Neanderthals as shambling apes in appearance is in view of evidence that they could not make clothes, run jump, throw or even thrust spears above shoulder height, is remarkably accurate. I’m confident the Neanderchumps were what French scientist Marcellin Boule showed in his reconstruction over a hundred years ago: a species that took a evolutionarily dead end path of fur and metabolism and blood flow to the extremities to keep warm. They had a huge blood supply to the face and that was probably for some kind of anti frostbite network, but the latest German reconstructions gave their older male figure rosy cheeks and a kindly expression. It looks like a lovable character actor resembling a broader faced version of Chuck Norris .

    But if that rationale for thinking unconvincing , let me turn it around and you ask why Neanderthal genes are not a much larger proportion of the later stone age Europeans, because if Neanderthals looked anything like the mainstream post WW2 modern reconstructions no human male would have had any problem having sex with a Neanderthal female. Neanderthal males might have been killed, but young Neanderthal females would have been mated with at every opportunity. The Neanderthals were often half starving don’t forget; their females would have been desperate for meat. The lack of any trace of Neanderthal hybrids in Europe means the Cro magnons found the Neanderthals females as sexually appealing as a female chimp.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Sean

    They had very large brains though, didn't they? It seems unusual that they would have such an expensive organ like a large brain if they adapted like most other cold weather mammals with heavy fur and the like.

    Replies: @matt

  75. @Sean
    Well Razib Khan keeps saying there is not much ancestry from stone age European hunter gatherers left in Modern Europe. If things like light/diverse hair and eyes and less masculine craniofacial form are extremely common in Europe today despite the original IndoEuropeans not having blue eyes ect very much, it means those must be genes of the original hunter gatherers surviving and massively expanding from an initial conquered women/ Indo European mating begining after they conquered most of Europe (and killed most of the indigenous men and plain women). Subsequently there was a slow long expansion of such genes in the patriarchal and hierarchical societies that Indo Europeans instituted).

    Re Neanderthals being like us in the adaptation they experienced after arriving in Europe:- such converging evolution is most unlikely, given the drastically different modes of existence, which would effectively be a completely different adaptive environment. The inability of the Neanderthals to live in the north despite their supposedly useful adaptations tells me Neanderthals' problem was the cold and they solved it by in the same way other mammals did: by growing a coat of fur, so they were very limited in brainpower. They were hunted like animals, and the early reconstructions of Neanderthals as shambling apes in appearance is in view of evidence that they could not make clothes, run jump, throw or even thrust spears above shoulder height, is remarkably accurate. I'm confident the Neanderchumps were what French scientist Marcellin Boule showed in his reconstruction over a hundred years ago: a species that took a evolutionarily dead end path of fur and metabolism and blood flow to the extremities to keep warm. They had a huge blood supply to the face and that was probably for some kind of anti frostbite network, but the latest German reconstructions gave their older male figure rosy cheeks and a kindly expression. It looks like a lovable character actor resembling a broader faced version of Chuck Norris .

    But if that rationale for thinking unconvincing , let me turn it around and you ask why Neanderthal genes are not a much larger proportion of the later stone age Europeans, because if Neanderthals looked anything like the mainstream post WW2 modern reconstructions no human male would have had any problem having sex with a Neanderthal female. Neanderthal males might have been killed, but young Neanderthal females would have been mated with at every opportunity. The Neanderthals were often half starving don't forget; their females would have been desperate for meat. The lack of any trace of Neanderthal hybrids in Europe means the Cro magnons found the Neanderthals females as sexually appealing as a female chimp.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    They had very large brains though, didn’t they? It seems unusual that they would have such an expensive organ like a large brain if they adapted like most other cold weather mammals with heavy fur and the like.

    • Replies: @matt
    @Anonymous

    Again, their brains were smaller than sapiens when adjusting for size of visual cortex and overall body size. Time to put this myth to rest.

    http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/280/1758/20130168

  76. Sean says:
    @SPMoore8
    @Sean

    Thanks for the reply, but these sources do not support the concept of Neanderthal as European gorillas. For one thing, you haven't explained the DNA issue.

    The other point, in terms of skin color, goes back to the question of mutation to white skin in the first place. If it took tens of thousands of years for black Africans in Europe to mutate to white, then surely Neanderthals, who lived in Europe for hundreds of thousands of years, would have had a similar mutation.

    You also haven't clarified the issue of IE origins or what you think actually happened vis a vis the evolution of Modern Europeans and/or the evolution of IE. I'd be interested in hearing your views.

    Replies: @Sean

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/neanderthal-skulls-grew-differently-modern-day-humans-discover-nyu-researchers-1532352

    The researchers found that the structure of bones in our heads is different to Neanderthals. In modern day humans, the inside of bones is made from osteoblasts – bone-forming cells – and the outside of the bone is made from osteoclast cells – or bone absorbing cells. However, it was found that the structure of the Neanderthal’s bones was the opposite way around, with the osteoblast cells on the outside, and osteoclast cells on the inside. […]
    Results showed that the upper jawbone of Neanderthal’s were more projected than the modern day human child, because of an abundance of osteoblasts without enough osteoclast cells to counter its effect. The net result of this means a more pronounced jaw; a feature seen in ancient hominins – or apes.

    “They share with older African hominins a similar facial growth pattern,” said Lacruz. “Meaning that humans deviated from the ancestral pattern. In that sense, the face that is unique is the modern human face.”

    It’s absurd to think any Neanderthals let alone a primitive one like Altamura could have the profile of Slim Pickens plus the expressive features of Warren Oates that the latest reconstruction shows. People can argue about the superficial features but look at bone.

  77. @Anonymous
    @Sean

    They had very large brains though, didn't they? It seems unusual that they would have such an expensive organ like a large brain if they adapted like most other cold weather mammals with heavy fur and the like.

    Replies: @matt

    Again, their brains were smaller than sapiens when adjusting for size of visual cortex and overall body size. Time to put this myth to rest.

    http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/280/1758/20130168

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