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From RunRepeat.com:

69 Years of Height Evolution in the NBA [4,379 players analyzed]

Posted on 27 August, 2020 by Dimitrije Curcic

“You can’t teach height” – Red Auerbach

We spent 2 months analyzing 24,489 records of 4,379 NBA players during 69 NBA seasons in order to show how the game of basketball evolved through the evolution of players’ height.

Special note to Kirk Goldsberry, whose book “Sprawlball” inspired the creation of this research. This article is a height spinoff of “Sprawlball”.

Sprawlball is about how pro basketball used to be about getting to the basket, but is now about dispersing most of your players out past the three point line.

… 1. Height and weight throughout NBA history

The average NBA height is 6’6’’, which is the lowest over the past 40 years. The last decade was the first in the history of the league where NBA players got shorter than a decade before.

NBA point guards are 6’3’’ tall, tallest they’ve ever been.

All other positions (shooting guards, small forwards, power forwards, and centers) are the shortest since the early 80s.

… The ideal concept of the small-ball game is having 5 guys with the same physical attributes and skillset – this is positionless basketball at its peak.

In the future, every NBA player will be a 6′-6″ 215 pound shooting forward. No more Manute Bols or Muggsy Bogueses.

So it’s not strange that 61% of the NBA players are within 6 inches, standing between 6’3’’ and 6’9’’. All other height ranges are in decline.

Also, 72% of the league is under 6’9’’.

… Similarly, 46% of NBA players taller than 6’9’’ are international players, and foreign 7-footers are accounting for 53% of league total. This data clearly shows that international big-men are still one of the most valuable assets from NBA teams.

Over the years, big men coming from abroad, particularly from Europe, have proved to be more skillful with the ball in their hands. They’re educated to play a team basketball, share the ball and learn to read the game.

This is visible on the charts – since the new millennia, when the centers slowly but surely started getting more involved in the flow of the game, by setting pick&rolls and “migrating” outside of the paint, they needed to develop a new skill set, one that the European centers already possessed. In some way, it was the international big men who made the small-ball revolution possible.

Lots more charts here.

 
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  1. Muggsy Bogues vindicated!

    OT: on today’s episode of “Then, One Day, For No Reason at All,” we examine an article on HuffPo by a social worker named Feldman who ratger unambiguously argues that we need to let the Sacklers/etc off the hook because white people are racist and like to get high

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5a304403e4b04bd8793e9535/amp

    • Thanks: Gabe Ruth
    • Replies: @jon
    @AndrewR

    She really leans into the "fellow white people" shtick:


    lots of us white folks were innocent victims ... it is simply not true
     

    white Americans lying to ourselves
     

    a pretty hefty admission for many of us white folks to make
     

    a way that paints us white folks as innocent victims
     

    It is time we stop causing harm with our lie and start facing up to our truth, white America
     
  2. Dumb black guys with tattoos running around … not my wheelhouse.

    • Replies: @Truth
    @Anon


    Dumb black guys with tattoos running around … not my wheelhouse.
     
    Are the tattoos running around, or are the dumb black guys?

    Amazon, Old Sport; this should help:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eats,_Shoots_%26_Leaves

    Replies: @Anon

    , @Bard of Bumperstickers
    @Anon

    They were already nasty and brutish, and now this. Are we to be spared nothing?

  3. NBA executives are notoriously idiots when it comes to understanding the Xs and Os of basketball. Many leagues had been playing small ball for decades andmath on the 3pt shot isn’t hard or novel. Rick Pitino talked about it quite about in the 90s and his great UK teams employed a similar strategy.

    What’s reduced the height for NBA players is the rule changes to eliminate its trademark roughness, both under the basket and out in space (ie hand checking). This allowed for smaller quicker players to be on the floor which thereby increased the shooting available to teams.

    Basketball is probably the toughest sport to analyze statistically and it leads to a bunch of nonsense and charlatans that peddle it.

    • Replies: @ganderson
    @Polynikes

    Harder than hockey?

    One thing that makes the NHL better than the NBA is that the NHLers may have all those tattoos, but one is not obligated to look at them

    Replies: @ScarletNumber, @Polynikes

    , @AndrewR
    @Polynikes


    Basketball is probably the toughest sport to analyze statistically
     
    Could you elaborate?

    Replies: @Polynikes

    , @Hapalong Cassidy
    @Polynikes

    Yeah, the rule changes happened after the 2004 season, when the NBA office was upset that their darling Lakers with Shaq and Kobe got their assets handed to them in the finals by the more physical Detroit Pistons. The NBA goes out of its way to protect its glamour teams like the Warriors and Lakers, as well as individual superstars like LeBron. Really, it’s only a slight step up from professional wrestling now.

    Replies: @Barnard

    , @slumber_j
    @Polynikes


    math on the 3pt shot isn’t hard or novel
     
    As someone who knows next to nothing about basketball, one of the few things I've wondered about it lately is why it took like 35 years or whatever for people to figure out that the 3-pointer should fundamentally change the way you play the game in the NBA? That was supposed to be the whole point of it after all.

    Replies: @Truth

    , @Dignan
    @Polynikes

    But when Pitino ran the show in Boston after his time at UK, he failed miserably and mostly blamed it on not getting Tim Duncan in the draft. His Boston teams weren't high usage 3 point teams but that changed when he quit and Jim O'Brien took over.

    Replies: @Polynikes

    , @1BigJohnson
    @Polynikes

    >What’s reduced the height for NBA players is the rule changes to eliminate its trademark roughness, both under the basket and out in space (ie hand checking).

    IMHO, it's more the divergence between the rules for jump shots and the rules for drives. You can foul a jump shooter nowadays w/o actually touching them.

    The modern style reminds me of the 80's offenses....the teams just run one option tree over-and-over-and-over. And, as a result, both styles are horribly dull to watch.

    , @1BigJohnson
    @Polynikes

    > his great UK teams employed a similar strategy.

    I remember UK being built around the full court press, not the 3 pointer...

    but anyway, Loyola Marymount circa '88 was the logical endpoint of the 3 point oriented game... Interestingly, their speed-of-play made the game actually entertaining to watch, despite it consisting of almost all 3's. But, unfortunately for modern fans, the modern TV timeout schedule effectively obsoleted that style.

    Replies: @Polynikes

  4. Isn’t the NBA the big round ball sport dominated by black guys that wiped itself out because the millionaire black guys were lecturing everyone about how everything was unfair?

    It was something like that. Anyway, didn’t most people just stop watching? I certainly did, and found that my life was not diminished in any way. Same for that one with the ellipsoid ball, what do they call it, NFL.

    I’ve been watching snooker instead. Watch Ronnie O’Sullivan run the table (not what they call it in snooker), anyway, shoot a maximum break, a 147, in the shortest time ever filmed; start at 1:10.

    Ronnie never lectures anybody about anything, bless him.

    • Agree: jon
    • Replies: @Citizen of a Silly Country
    @Anon7

    Yep. I only clicked on this post to see how many iSteve commenters enjoy showering money and affection on people who hate them.

    , @Bard of Bumperstickers
    @Anon7

    Physical height notwithstanding, by the symbolic shortening of "taking a knee", they've lost social stature. No mysterious cause there. To hell with 'em - poor deluded man-children.

    The lessening of physical height has been noted generally across the populace, as acknowledged elsewhere in these comments. Contributing factors must include modern diet and lifestyle, and possibly environmental factors such as chemical pollution and electrical and microwave fields. Average worldwide IQ has been reduced, too, possibly due also to who reproduces and who does not.

    A lot of good things seem retrograde. It's not as if it's inevitable. May Trump triumph three Tuesdays from now, the brakeman-in-chief on the deep state railroad's express train to perdition.

  5. @Polynikes
    NBA executives are notoriously idiots when it comes to understanding the Xs and Os of basketball. Many leagues had been playing small ball for decades andmath on the 3pt shot isn’t hard or novel. Rick Pitino talked about it quite about in the 90s and his great UK teams employed a similar strategy.

    What’s reduced the height for NBA players is the rule changes to eliminate its trademark roughness, both under the basket and out in space (ie hand checking). This allowed for smaller quicker players to be on the floor which thereby increased the shooting available to teams.

    Basketball is probably the toughest sport to analyze statistically and it leads to a bunch of nonsense and charlatans that peddle it.

    Replies: @ganderson, @AndrewR, @Hapalong Cassidy, @slumber_j, @Dignan, @1BigJohnson, @1BigJohnson

    Harder than hockey?

    One thing that makes the NHL better than the NBA is that the NHLers may have all those tattoos, but one is not obligated to look at them

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    @ganderson

    It depends on if you qualify hockey as a major sport.

    Replies: @Brutusale

    , @Polynikes
    @ganderson

    I don’t know enough about Hockey or Soccer, but I’d guess they are similar in terms of individual free flowing movement operating as one unit that’s hard to isolate in a statistical sense.

    I was thinking more in terms of traditional US sports like Football, baseball, golf, etc...

    Replies: @SunBakedSuburb, @Ganderson

  6. @Polynikes
    NBA executives are notoriously idiots when it comes to understanding the Xs and Os of basketball. Many leagues had been playing small ball for decades andmath on the 3pt shot isn’t hard or novel. Rick Pitino talked about it quite about in the 90s and his great UK teams employed a similar strategy.

    What’s reduced the height for NBA players is the rule changes to eliminate its trademark roughness, both under the basket and out in space (ie hand checking). This allowed for smaller quicker players to be on the floor which thereby increased the shooting available to teams.

    Basketball is probably the toughest sport to analyze statistically and it leads to a bunch of nonsense and charlatans that peddle it.

    Replies: @ganderson, @AndrewR, @Hapalong Cassidy, @slumber_j, @Dignan, @1BigJohnson, @1BigJohnson

    Basketball is probably the toughest sport to analyze statistically

    Could you elaborate?

    • Replies: @Polynikes
    @AndrewR

    For starters, half the game is played on defense. Defense, good defense anyways, is almost entirely team oriented. Assignments and concepts vary from team to team that can’t really be discerned by an outside party through film (like you kind of can with football). It’s almost impossible to grade defense without knowing the assignments and who messed up.

    For example, a guy gets dunked on at the rim. It could be because that guy was lazy, not paying attention and was completely out of position. Bad defense. It could be because his teammate was those things, and he displayed good defense by trying to rotate over and help out. Good defense. Or it could be a combination of the above in which case he rotated over, but wasn’t supposed to because it wasn’t his assigned role. In that case he’d receive a positive grade for effort (maybe) but a negative grade for assignment. Impossible to tell from the outside if you don’t know the defensive scheme.

    On offense you have similar issues because roles aren’t defined like they are in football or baseball, but because shooting and passing are important you can isolate some metrics to help differentiate players (effective FG% is a good one for scorers).

    In my experience good coaches know how to use stats in basketball, but it is because they are already good coaches (who understand basic math). The stats don’t dictate their philosophy the way you see in baseball.

  7. @Polynikes
    NBA executives are notoriously idiots when it comes to understanding the Xs and Os of basketball. Many leagues had been playing small ball for decades andmath on the 3pt shot isn’t hard or novel. Rick Pitino talked about it quite about in the 90s and his great UK teams employed a similar strategy.

    What’s reduced the height for NBA players is the rule changes to eliminate its trademark roughness, both under the basket and out in space (ie hand checking). This allowed for smaller quicker players to be on the floor which thereby increased the shooting available to teams.

    Basketball is probably the toughest sport to analyze statistically and it leads to a bunch of nonsense and charlatans that peddle it.

    Replies: @ganderson, @AndrewR, @Hapalong Cassidy, @slumber_j, @Dignan, @1BigJohnson, @1BigJohnson

    Yeah, the rule changes happened after the 2004 season, when the NBA office was upset that their darling Lakers with Shaq and Kobe got their assets handed to them in the finals by the more physical Detroit Pistons. The NBA goes out of its way to protect its glamour teams like the Warriors and Lakers, as well as individual superstars like LeBron. Really, it’s only a slight step up from professional wrestling now.

    • Agree: Old and Grumpy
    • Replies: @Barnard
    @Hapalong Cassidy

    That was the NBA's second go round of wishing the Pistons weren't successful. After the Bad Boys Pistons won two titles they quickly cleared the way for the much more marketable Michael Jordan led Bulls to replace them. Deference to superstars has reached unprecedented levels now with LeBron, there is a clip of him in a pre-Covid game from this past season where he stops dribbling, walks for three steps and then starts again without a whistle. The Jazz player guarding him reacts as you would expect and the ref ignores it.

  8. Anon[257] • Disclaimer says:

    I find it interesting how slowly basketball came to adopt what we think of as the modern game. Sure, the 3-pointer is a relatively recent addition, as is the shot clock, but I am of a mind that an unguarded or lightly guarded shot from 20+ feet has a higher EV than a guarded shot from anywhere on the floor. Before the introduction of the 3, however, such a tactic of playing for the open rather than the close shot was relatively rare, at least as I understand it.

    20 years into Major League Baseball, you had players realize an uppercut swing, which would increase strikeout rate and lower BABIP, might be useful because taking all 4 bases at once is much more efficient than taking them one at a time. The Best four hitters of all-time had high K rates relative to their eras – Ruth, Williams, Cobb and Bonds.

    How could basketball increase the premium on height? Make field goals worth 3, the 3 worth 4, and award 3 free throws on a foul? I don’t think this would be a good idea.

    The Sixers, my team, were talked about as the Hot New Thing in recent years, but former player Elton Brand took over as GM and loaded the roster with players who look like him, a 6’9” power forward, to predictably disappointing results.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Anon

    You could make free throws worth 2 points, regular field goals 4 points, and long field goals 5 points.

    Replies: @Hapalong Cassidy, @Anon7, @Muggles

    , @ScarletNumber
    @Anon


    a relatively recent addition ... the shot clock
     
    The NBA adopted the shot clock in 1954, its ninth season. The league would've died without it. The NCAA was much slower on the uptake, waiting 30 years after the NBA. Dean Smith almost killed college basketball with his Four Corners offense when leading. High school still doesn't have one, but I think that is more a financial consideration than anything else, since you have to hire a competent adult to run it.

    Replies: @Anon, @Ben tillman

    , @Foreign Expert
    @Anon

    Raise the basket to 11 feet in the nba.

  9. @Polynikes
    NBA executives are notoriously idiots when it comes to understanding the Xs and Os of basketball. Many leagues had been playing small ball for decades andmath on the 3pt shot isn’t hard or novel. Rick Pitino talked about it quite about in the 90s and his great UK teams employed a similar strategy.

    What’s reduced the height for NBA players is the rule changes to eliminate its trademark roughness, both under the basket and out in space (ie hand checking). This allowed for smaller quicker players to be on the floor which thereby increased the shooting available to teams.

    Basketball is probably the toughest sport to analyze statistically and it leads to a bunch of nonsense and charlatans that peddle it.

    Replies: @ganderson, @AndrewR, @Hapalong Cassidy, @slumber_j, @Dignan, @1BigJohnson, @1BigJohnson

    math on the 3pt shot isn’t hard or novel

    As someone who knows next to nothing about basketball, one of the few things I’ve wondered about it lately is why it took like 35 years or whatever for people to figure out that the 3-pointer should fundamentally change the way you play the game in the NBA? That was supposed to be the whole point of it after all.

    • Replies: @Truth
    @slumber_j

    It did not take them 35 years to figure out that the 3 pointer would change the way you play the game, it took them 35 years to figure out that practically any clumsy oaf can fairly effectively shoot the ball from 22.75 feet it he does it 500-1000 times a day.

    Replies: @Muggles

  10. The cited article notes that “53% of the NBA’s 7-footers are international players.” I wonder what percentage of the NBA’s international players are 7-footers. Most of the white ones, I would guess.

    Here’s research some guys did recently on the ethnicity of NBA rosters.

    • Replies: @Pop Warner
    @I, Libertine

    Good to see they follow the capital conventions for BBBBlack and white

    Replies: @I, Libertine

  11. Basically the NBA figured out you don’t need to be tall as long as you have long arms. For example Draymond Green is 6’7” but his arms are 7’3” so he can guard multiple positions which means Golden State can switch every screen.

  12. @Anon
    I find it interesting how slowly basketball came to adopt what we think of as the modern game. Sure, the 3-pointer is a relatively recent addition, as is the shot clock, but I am of a mind that an unguarded or lightly guarded shot from 20+ feet has a higher EV than a guarded shot from anywhere on the floor. Before the introduction of the 3, however, such a tactic of playing for the open rather than the close shot was relatively rare, at least as I understand it.

    20 years into Major League Baseball, you had players realize an uppercut swing, which would increase strikeout rate and lower BABIP, might be useful because taking all 4 bases at once is much more efficient than taking them one at a time. The Best four hitters of all-time had high K rates relative to their eras - Ruth, Williams, Cobb and Bonds.

    How could basketball increase the premium on height? Make field goals worth 3, the 3 worth 4, and award 3 free throws on a foul? I don’t think this would be a good idea.

    The Sixers, my team, were talked about as the Hot New Thing in recent years, but former player Elton Brand took over as GM and loaded the roster with players who look like him, a 6’9” power forward, to predictably disappointing results.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @ScarletNumber, @Foreign Expert

    You could make free throws worth 2 points, regular field goals 4 points, and long field goals 5 points.

    • Replies: @Hapalong Cassidy
    @Steve Sailer

    In international rules, the players get 3 shots to make 2. This makes sense, because it reduces the incentive to foul. Think about it, if it weren’t for the fouling out rule, there would be zero incentive not to foul, as the percentage of made free throws will always be less than an un-fouled layup. The 3-for-2 rule reduces that incentive. The international rules also are better in other ways, such as the wider three-second lane, which is a better way to reduces contact under the basket and encourage outside shooting, and the longer 30-second shot clock, which favors more strategy.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber, @I, Libertine, @kaganovitch

    , @Anon7
    @Steve Sailer

    My unreasonable wish is to have each night's "game" consist of a best-of-7 series of games played to 15. Each basket is worth one point; first to fifteen wins. Pickup basketball, with fixed teams.

    There would be no point to controlling the pace of the game, no point to dragging out the end of the game (one of its ugliest features these days). Score and win.

    No free throws. If there is a foul called, the ref hands the ball to the fouled team's point guard at center court, who just brings it down the court in play. If the fouled team makes a basket, the ref once again gives the ball to the fouled team at center court - the penalty consists in giving the fouled team the opportunity to get two baskets. If the fouled team doesn't make a basket, and the other team gains possession, the ref takes the ball and gives it to the fouled team at center court, giving them their second opportunity to score.

    , @Muggles
    @Steve Sailer

    My own take on this is that sooner or later, a half court or better shot will be worth 4 points.

    The over-and-back foul penalty would still be in place as follows: any over half court ball in possession of the offensive team, to avoid the penalty, would have to be taken as a shot subject to the usual shot clock, close enough to the basket to count (though could be a miss).

    That would encourage very long range bombing, which would take extreme precision plus very powerful legs.

    You can of course now take a behind half court line shot but if made, it's only 3.

    You could also make the over-and-back penalty not just a possession loss but a one point foul shot plus possession. This would discourage "gaming the rule" for 4 when the actual shot isn't taken or realistic.

    With improvements in shooting, this seems bound to happen. Very tall guys near the basket might also be more useful defenders since 4 pointers would have to be high arc.

    Would create a lot more winnable close games. WNBA and college ball wouldn't have to follow this.

  13. OT

    Super far left magazine The Jacobin thinks the Governor Whitmer assassination plot was a stock FBI entrapment.

    https://www.jacobinmag.com/2020/10/gretchen-whitmer-kidnapping-fbi-domestic-terrorism

    These guys often criticise progressives from their left flank, so it can make for funny reading.

    • Replies: @jon
    @Anon

    Jacobin, Jimmy Dore, Glen Greenwald - they are all like that, makes for interesting reading/watching.

  14. Height is normally distributed with a mean of about 5’9 and a SD of about 3 in. So 6’6 is a full 3 SD above the mean. I believe that works out to only about 1.5 men in a group of ten thousand being that tall. Whereas about 250 men in that same group would be 6’3, which is just 2 SD above the mean. 6’9 and above are real statitistical freaks.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/68%E2%80%9395%E2%80%9399.7_rule

    If you are willing to take a slightly shorter player, however, you are selecting from a far bigger pool of talent for traits like ball-handling and shooting ability.

    But even with those traits at a premium in the modern game, you can see that height is still a dominant factor if they are averaging 6’6.

    Think how many incredible shooters there must be in the 50% of the population below 5’9 that is effectively ineligible for the NBA.

    • Agree: BB753, Polynikes
    • Replies: @BB753
    @Hypnotoad666

    It's pretty easy to fix that problem. The hoop should sit a foot below where it's now and you could enjoy an actual sport with skilled athletes of normal height, not a freakshow.

    Replies: @Abolish_public_education

    , @Anon7
    @Hypnotoad666

    That's right! You could take all short players, and that kind of league actually exists.

    I once played in a 5'9" and under league, after one of my housemates' boyfriends in law school begged me to. In truth, I'm a bit taller, a bit over 5'10", so I had certain moral qualms.

    It turned out to be okay, since every team had one freakishly large player that towered over the little guys. On our team, that was me.

    I'm telling you, it was a rush.

    You wouldn't believe how many amazingly good ballplayers there are in the shorter range. One of the guys on our team was whippet thin and about 5'7" - astonishingly quick, he scored unstoppable layups, he was all-state in New York in high school.

    Another team had a guy about 5'5" who dribbled and moved at twice normal speed, all the time. Another had a 5'8" guy who just couldn't miss at like 35 feet (pre-3 point shot, though).

    I don't know if you could sell a five-nine and under league to the public, but it was great fun.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

    , @prime noticer
    @Hypnotoad666

    "Height is normally distributed with a mean of about 5’9 and a SD of about 3 in."

    no it's not.

    HBD on an HBD site, please.

    might as well talk about strength being normally distributed, or, eek, intelligence.

    height is not even normally distributed among europeans.

    the height of the players is dictated by the height of the tallest human groups.

    hypothetically speaking, if some group of 100 million humans had a mean height of 6-4, they would probably account for half of the 360 players, provided they were really into hoops and not some other height related sport.

    , @Sean c
    @Hypnotoad666

    That seems to be way off based on personal experience. I would say most high school basketball teams have at least one 6'6 player from an average pool of around 750 boys. This would not even count those not playing basketball and boys who haven't even finished growing. My high school at a snapshot freshman year had 5 6'6" or higher playing basketball. And one 6'7" future NFL player who didnt play basketball. That would be out of 600 boys. My high school did not recruit basketball players either.

    Replies: @Hypnotoad666

  15. Steve,

    The article in the Washington Post about destroying the quality of Thomas Jefferson High school seems to fit many of the trends you have been noticing for years.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2020/10/19/thomas-jefferson-high-school-diversity/

    When the young, woke black female student of educated immigrant parents started attending TJ, she fell right into the trap of when a black student is not the best student or hardest working student, they will default to being the blackest student on campus. Being blackest is just something that all of the Chinese, Korea, and Desi students cannot do.

  16. Jeffery Toobin took it out .

    LOL

    • LOL: Polynikes
  17. @Steve Sailer
    @Anon

    You could make free throws worth 2 points, regular field goals 4 points, and long field goals 5 points.

    Replies: @Hapalong Cassidy, @Anon7, @Muggles

    In international rules, the players get 3 shots to make 2. This makes sense, because it reduces the incentive to foul. Think about it, if it weren’t for the fouling out rule, there would be zero incentive not to foul, as the percentage of made free throws will always be less than an un-fouled layup. The 3-for-2 rule reduces that incentive. The international rules also are better in other ways, such as the wider three-second lane, which is a better way to reduces contact under the basket and encourage outside shooting, and the longer 30-second shot clock, which favors more strategy.

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    @Hapalong Cassidy


    The international rules also are better in other ways, such as the wider three-second lane
     
    This was true until 2010. FIBA then switched to the NBA key.

    ---

    One rule change I would make is to discourage fouling in the last minute of the game by the winning team. If in the last minute of play a team commits a foul when winning by three or more points, the other team shall receive a third free throw if they successfully complete the first two.
    , @I, Libertine
    @Hapalong Cassidy

    Perhaps you don't remember that the NBA had a 3 -to-make-2 rule till the early '80s . It applied after the 4th foul against your team of the quarter, if you missed the shot; also, 2-to-make-1 if you made it.

    The elimination of that rule, and the institution of the 3 point shot around the same time, made the sport much less interesting to watch, IMHO. Like MLB, with its hopped-up ball, the NBA has become a home-run-or-bust game.

    , @kaganovitch
    @Hapalong Cassidy

    In international rules, the players get 3 shots to make 2. This makes sense, because it reduces the incentive to foul. Think about it, if it weren’t for the fouling out rule, there would be zero incentive not to foul, as the percentage of made free throws will always be less than an un-fouled layup.

    It ain't necessarily so. For example , Steph Curry's layup percentage is in the neighborhood of %63. His free throw percentage is north of .900. So he has a .81 chance of scoring 2 points on foul shots vs. a .63 chance on a layup. Aside from that, there is the possibility of a 3 point play ,with and 1, that provides negative incentive to foul.

  18. I imagine NBA salaries will be shrinking along with the height of its players due to their turning off at least half of the public with their infantile political tantrums.

    • Replies: @peterike
    @unit472


    I imagine NBA salaries will be shrinking along with the height of its players due to their turning off at least half of the public with their infantile political tantrums.
     
    Possibly, but that means nothing to the current players who have already made their millions. And blacks aren't all that good when it comes to thinking about the future. So expect no change in mentality.

    Current high school basketball standouts might have a complaint to make in the future. But hell, even if they cut the salaries in half, they'd still be making way more than they should. The insanity of it all is pretty insane.

    For the 2018-19 season, the average NBA salary is $6,388,007, per Basketball-Reference. Like most pro sports leagues, the NBA features a wide range of salaries.

    The minimum NBA salary (i.e. the least amount of money a player can be paid) ranges from $838,464 to $2,393,887, per Hoops Hype. The minimum amount of money a player can make depends on his experience. The rookie minimum salary is $838,464, while a veteran with 10 or more years of experience can make no less than $2,393,887.

    Replies: @jon, @Kratoklastes

  19. @Hypnotoad666
    Height is normally distributed with a mean of about 5'9 and a SD of about 3 in. So 6'6 is a full 3 SD above the mean. I believe that works out to only about 1.5 men in a group of ten thousand being that tall. Whereas about 250 men in that same group would be 6'3, which is just 2 SD above the mean. 6'9 and above are real statitistical freaks.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/68%E2%80%9395%E2%80%9399.7_rule

    If you are willing to take a slightly shorter player, however, you are selecting from a far bigger pool of talent for traits like ball-handling and shooting ability.

    But even with those traits at a premium in the modern game, you can see that height is still a dominant factor if they are averaging 6'6.

    Think how many incredible shooters there must be in the 50% of the population below 5'9 that is effectively ineligible for the NBA.

    Replies: @BB753, @Anon7, @prime noticer, @Sean c

    It’s pretty easy to fix that problem. The hoop should sit a foot below where it’s now and you could enjoy an actual sport with skilled athletes of normal height, not a freakshow.

    • Replies: @Abolish_public_education
    @BB753

    The blogger has noted the necessity of re-examining the rules of sports, every few years, in order to eject the anachronisms.

    A ten-foot basket was reasonable back when six foot-tallish players were the norm, Alcindor was a freak, etc.

    Today’s players — even the shorties — can set/grab a quarter on/off the top of the backboard.

    The basket needs to be raised to 16 feet.

    Replies: @anon

  20. Americans are also getting shorter. Even white Americans are getting smaller.

    https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/the-shocking

    Call her The Incredible Shrinking African-American Woman. the average height of black women in the U.S. has been receding, beginning with those born in the late 1960s. The difference in stature between white women and black women has now stretched to three-quarters of an inch and appears to be increasing, according to newly released data from the National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey. https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/os-xpm-2008-12-26-shrink26-story.html

    • Replies: @njguy73
    @Travis

    Could it be the result of more interracial breeding and thus regression in average height? I'd also like to see it broken down by state. See if there's a pattern similar to how the worst-performing Black school children are in liberal areas.

    , @jallynn
    @Travis

    Are some of the people counted as "white" for purposes of average height counted as "Hispanic" in other contexts?

  21. @Polynikes
    NBA executives are notoriously idiots when it comes to understanding the Xs and Os of basketball. Many leagues had been playing small ball for decades andmath on the 3pt shot isn’t hard or novel. Rick Pitino talked about it quite about in the 90s and his great UK teams employed a similar strategy.

    What’s reduced the height for NBA players is the rule changes to eliminate its trademark roughness, both under the basket and out in space (ie hand checking). This allowed for smaller quicker players to be on the floor which thereby increased the shooting available to teams.

    Basketball is probably the toughest sport to analyze statistically and it leads to a bunch of nonsense and charlatans that peddle it.

    Replies: @ganderson, @AndrewR, @Hapalong Cassidy, @slumber_j, @Dignan, @1BigJohnson, @1BigJohnson

    But when Pitino ran the show in Boston after his time at UK, he failed miserably and mostly blamed it on not getting Tim Duncan in the draft. His Boston teams weren’t high usage 3 point teams but that changed when he quit and Jim O’Brien took over.

    • Replies: @Polynikes
    @Dignan

    This is nerdy inside baseball...uh, basketball type stuff, but as much as Pitino embraced pace and three point shooting he’s an awful Xs and Os coach on offense. And so is everyone from his coaching tree.* He dictated pace by full court pressing on defense which forces the other team to play fast and causes turnovers leading to easy buckets. He then encouraged his guys to take open three’s on the fast break (which he would later allow guys like antoine walker to do on the celtics) after those turnovers.

    But in the NBA you can’t full court press like that. Too many games and the athletes aren’t going to expend themselves that much in the regular season. And when you get Pitno teams into the half court offense, they are very bad at it. He’s a defensive coach.


    *sidenote: this is why it was a hilariously bad hire by the Thunder to get Pitino prodigy Billy Donovan when they wanted a new coach in a last ditch effort to keep Kevin Durant by getting Westbrook to play smarter half court offense and share the ball more. Donovan had about as much chance of figuring that out as that Cochran guy had of solving the Kung Flu in these comments.

    Replies: @hhsiii

  22. Pure height used to be the real physical premium in basketball, particularly if one wanted to reach the highest level of play such as making it to the NBA. What the “secret” physical premium nowadays actually is, is Wingspan (fingertip to fingertip length relative to one’s height).

    Players with wingspans that exceed their height by a few inches have a significant advantage in that their wingspan allows them longer reaches on defense, an advantage for defensive disruptions in the passing lanes, and getting fingers on the ball for steals, blocks, and rebounds – and also on offense for getting the ball a little bit higher on the shot release. Longer wingspans also act as additional propelling leverage for jumping.

    It is a known fact that almost all black players in the NBA have wingspans that exceed every white NBA players’ wingspan (see “The Sports Gene” by David Epstein). White players therefore almost always have to be exceptionally fundamentally skilled with gifted basketball IQs to compensate for this physical disadvantage.

  23. “You can’t teach height” – Red Auerbach

    Says who?

    by Dimitrije Curcic

    Speaking of “international”…

    Dimitrije Curcic = Juiced rim critic.

  24. @Travis
    Americans are also getting shorter. Even white Americans are getting smaller.

    https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/the-shocking

    Call her The Incredible Shrinking African-American Woman. the average height of black women in the U.S. has been receding, beginning with those born in the late 1960s. The difference in stature between white women and black women has now stretched to three-quarters of an inch and appears to be increasing, according to newly released data from the National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey. https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/os-xpm-2008-12-26-shrink26-story.html

    Replies: @njguy73, @jallynn

    Could it be the result of more interracial breeding and thus regression in average height? I’d also like to see it broken down by state. See if there’s a pattern similar to how the worst-performing Black school children are in liberal areas.

  25. @unit472
    I imagine NBA salaries will be shrinking along with the height of its players due to their turning off at least half of the public with their infantile political tantrums.

    Replies: @peterike

    I imagine NBA salaries will be shrinking along with the height of its players due to their turning off at least half of the public with their infantile political tantrums.

    Possibly, but that means nothing to the current players who have already made their millions. And blacks aren’t all that good when it comes to thinking about the future. So expect no change in mentality.

    Current high school basketball standouts might have a complaint to make in the future. But hell, even if they cut the salaries in half, they’d still be making way more than they should. The insanity of it all is pretty insane.

    For the 2018-19 season, the average NBA salary is $6,388,007, per Basketball-Reference. Like most pro sports leagues, the NBA features a wide range of salaries.

    The minimum NBA salary (i.e. the least amount of money a player can be paid) ranges from $838,464 to $2,393,887, per Hoops Hype. The minimum amount of money a player can make depends on his experience. The rookie minimum salary is $838,464, while a veteran with 10 or more years of experience can make no less than $2,393,887.

    • Replies: @jon
    @peterike


    The rookie minimum salary is $838,464, while a veteran with 10 or more years of experience can make no less than $2,393,887.
     
    That's nuts. How does that compare to other leagues?

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

    , @Kratoklastes
    @peterike

    It's interesting that NBA sportsballers go broke slightly less often than NFL sportsballers.

    • By the time they have been retired for two years, 78% of former NFL players have gone bankrupt or are under financial stress because of joblessness or divorce.

    • Within five years of retirement, an estimated 60% of former NBA players are broke.. - Sportsball Illustrated (2009)
     

    A lot of this has to do with them never earning the amounts reported.

    Like their reported playing height (measured in shoes that add a good inch and a half), their reported salaries are highly conditional on a bunch of contractual terms that often fail to materialise - the 'headline number' might be 7 figures, but it's conditional on hitting playing stats that are rarely achieved.

    This is widespread in pretty much everything: actor salaries; professional sports contracts; contracts for recording artists and writers.

    A few years ago I knew a couple of young guys who made the cut as professional AFL players - guys in the Australian Football League, playing Australian Rules football. AFL is pretty gruelling: high impact; long periods of time at threshold HR.

    To actually get paid the $200k 'base' number on their contracts, these kids had to play every game including finals (so the team had to make finals), and play at near-elite levels in their early career (nobody does that: it takes at least 3 years of conditioning to get to the physical level required - a 3 year player is significantly harder than a rookie).

    To get the 'headline' number (the number reported in the media - 'X million over 5 years'), they also had to be no lower than 10th in the club's "Best & Fairest" (MVP); the team had to make at least semi-finals; and they had to poll votes in the league's Best & Fairest (which is to say that in at least one game, they had to be among the top 3 players on the field - as scored by the umpires). These criteria had to be achieved every year.

    If they didn't fulfil the terms required to make 'base', they earned a bit less than $5k a game in playing fees.

    Sounds like a lot of money for a 19 year old, but once you take out tax and management fees, these kids are running their guts out (5km/game on average) and colliding at speed with much harder bodies... for maybe $50k a year for the first couple of years - if the stars align.

    Then consider that less than a third of players make it to 50 games (which is 2 full years, plus half a dozen games); the median career length is 19 games, and 40% of careers are less than 10 games.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist

  26. @ganderson
    @Polynikes

    Harder than hockey?

    One thing that makes the NHL better than the NBA is that the NHLers may have all those tattoos, but one is not obligated to look at them

    Replies: @ScarletNumber, @Polynikes

    It depends on if you qualify hockey as a major sport.

    • Replies: @Brutusale
    @ScarletNumber

    It assuredly is in Boston. In the 60s when the Celtics were winning the NBA championship every year, they drew a smaller crowd at the old Boston Garden than the mediocre (until the arrival of Bobby Orr) Bruins. But hey, Boston is rayciss.

    Pro tip for the single guys: when in a northern city like Boston, go to a hockey game. Many more women, in these parts called Puck Bunnies, than at other pro venues.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber, @Truth, @Buffalo Joe, @Rex Little

  27. @ganderson
    @Polynikes

    Harder than hockey?

    One thing that makes the NHL better than the NBA is that the NHLers may have all those tattoos, but one is not obligated to look at them

    Replies: @ScarletNumber, @Polynikes

    I don’t know enough about Hockey or Soccer, but I’d guess they are similar in terms of individual free flowing movement operating as one unit that’s hard to isolate in a statistical sense.

    I was thinking more in terms of traditional US sports like Football, baseball, golf, etc…

    • Replies: @SunBakedSuburb
    @Polynikes

    "golf"

    Golf, like bowling, is not a sport.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @Kratoklastes

    , @Ganderson
    @Polynikes

    In the part of the USA I grew up in hockey is a typical US sport. I know what you mean though, and it is harder to quantify.

  28. Over the years, big men coming from abroad, particularly from Europe, have proved to be more skillful with the ball in their hands. They’re educated to play a team basketball, share the ball and learn to read the game.

    Hmmm, I wonder if there’s another aspect of those white men from Europe that makes them “play a team basketball, share the ball and learn to read the game.”

    Oh wait, sorry. It just says “big men…from Europe.” Nothing about their being white. My bad!

    • Replies: @Steve in Greensboro
    @peterike


    Over the years, big men coming from abroad, particularly from Europe, have proved to be more skillful with the ball in their hands. They’re educated to play a team basketball, share the ball and learn to read the game
     
    I think these very concepts (team play, sharing, learning to read) were described as "aspects of whiteness" in the Smithsonian "Aspects and Assumptions of White Culture" from the National Museum of Af-Am History and Culture, a wonderful Rosetta Stone for us whites to understand our Black masters.

    White people should be barred from the game, regardless of the fact that it was invented by a white guy. Only Blacks should be allowed to play it. Only Blacks should be allowed to watch it. These changes are necessary to avoid cultural appropriation.
  29. @Anon
    I find it interesting how slowly basketball came to adopt what we think of as the modern game. Sure, the 3-pointer is a relatively recent addition, as is the shot clock, but I am of a mind that an unguarded or lightly guarded shot from 20+ feet has a higher EV than a guarded shot from anywhere on the floor. Before the introduction of the 3, however, such a tactic of playing for the open rather than the close shot was relatively rare, at least as I understand it.

    20 years into Major League Baseball, you had players realize an uppercut swing, which would increase strikeout rate and lower BABIP, might be useful because taking all 4 bases at once is much more efficient than taking them one at a time. The Best four hitters of all-time had high K rates relative to their eras - Ruth, Williams, Cobb and Bonds.

    How could basketball increase the premium on height? Make field goals worth 3, the 3 worth 4, and award 3 free throws on a foul? I don’t think this would be a good idea.

    The Sixers, my team, were talked about as the Hot New Thing in recent years, but former player Elton Brand took over as GM and loaded the roster with players who look like him, a 6’9” power forward, to predictably disappointing results.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @ScarletNumber, @Foreign Expert

    a relatively recent addition … the shot clock

    The NBA adopted the shot clock in 1954, its ninth season. The league would’ve died without it. The NCAA was much slower on the uptake, waiting 30 years after the NBA. Dean Smith almost killed college basketball with his Four Corners offense when leading. High school still doesn’t have one, but I think that is more a financial consideration than anything else, since you have to hire a competent adult to run it.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @ScarletNumber

    Yes, right. Thanks for that. Had no idea the NBA had a shot clock going back that far. I knew it was less than 40 years old for college ball.

    , @Ben tillman
    @ScarletNumber

    Dean Smith’s four-corners was even worse when his team was trailing. Who can forget the time he played the four corners against Duke in FIRST HALF.

    Halftime score was Duke 7.

    Just Duke 7. The Heels didn’t score.

    Final was Duke 47, UNC 40.

    Replies: @Hhsiii, @ScarletNumber

  30. @Hapalong Cassidy
    @Steve Sailer

    In international rules, the players get 3 shots to make 2. This makes sense, because it reduces the incentive to foul. Think about it, if it weren’t for the fouling out rule, there would be zero incentive not to foul, as the percentage of made free throws will always be less than an un-fouled layup. The 3-for-2 rule reduces that incentive. The international rules also are better in other ways, such as the wider three-second lane, which is a better way to reduces contact under the basket and encourage outside shooting, and the longer 30-second shot clock, which favors more strategy.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber, @I, Libertine, @kaganovitch

    The international rules also are better in other ways, such as the wider three-second lane

    This was true until 2010. FIBA then switched to the NBA key.

    One rule change I would make is to discourage fouling in the last minute of the game by the winning team. If in the last minute of play a team commits a foul when winning by three or more points, the other team shall receive a third free throw if they successfully complete the first two.

  31. @AndrewR
    @Polynikes


    Basketball is probably the toughest sport to analyze statistically
     
    Could you elaborate?

    Replies: @Polynikes

    For starters, half the game is played on defense. Defense, good defense anyways, is almost entirely team oriented. Assignments and concepts vary from team to team that can’t really be discerned by an outside party through film (like you kind of can with football). It’s almost impossible to grade defense without knowing the assignments and who messed up.

    For example, a guy gets dunked on at the rim. It could be because that guy was lazy, not paying attention and was completely out of position. Bad defense. It could be because his teammate was those things, and he displayed good defense by trying to rotate over and help out. Good defense. Or it could be a combination of the above in which case he rotated over, but wasn’t supposed to because it wasn’t his assigned role. In that case he’d receive a positive grade for effort (maybe) but a negative grade for assignment. Impossible to tell from the outside if you don’t know the defensive scheme.

    On offense you have similar issues because roles aren’t defined like they are in football or baseball, but because shooting and passing are important you can isolate some metrics to help differentiate players (effective FG% is a good one for scorers).

    In my experience good coaches know how to use stats in basketball, but it is because they are already good coaches (who understand basic math). The stats don’t dictate their philosophy the way you see in baseball.

    • Thanks: AndrewR
  32. @ScarletNumber
    @ganderson

    It depends on if you qualify hockey as a major sport.

    Replies: @Brutusale

    It assuredly is in Boston. In the 60s when the Celtics were winning the NBA championship every year, they drew a smaller crowd at the old Boston Garden than the mediocre (until the arrival of Bobby Orr) Bruins. But hey, Boston is rayciss.

    Pro tip for the single guys: when in a northern city like Boston, go to a hockey game. Many more women, in these parts called Puck Bunnies, than at other pro venues.

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    @Brutusale

    I've never heard the term Puck Bunny, I will say that in my experience the women who attend hockey games are more attractive than women who attend basketball games.

    , @Truth
    @Brutusale


    Pro tip for the single guys: when in a northern city like Boston, go to a hockey game. Many more women, in these parts called Puck Bunnies, than at other pro venues.
     
    Follow through with the thought here old sport:

    "...And you might be able to even get attention from one if a slick old codger like Phil Esposito or Ray Bourque is not divorced for the third time, we look a little more like them..." (wink).
    , @Buffalo Joe
    @Brutusale

    Brutus, lots of NHL players live around here in our town. All seem to be genuinely nice guys and family men, and that says alot.

    , @Rex Little
    @Brutusale


    the mediocre (until the arrival of Bobby Orr) Bruins.
     
    I grew up in the Boston area in the pre-Orr years, and the Bruins weren't mediocre--they were bad. They missed the playoffs 7 straight years before Orr came along, and those were the days when two-thirds of the teams in the NHL were in the playoffs. The only question those years was whether the Bruins or the Rangers would finish in the cellar.
  33. A big issue is that basketball isn’t played much in America….its all about primadonna ballhogs playing “streetball” where every team is full of “in it for themselves” types who have no interest in being on a team but want to be players on a GSW type super team. Its the same reason Leonard raised every manner of hell to leave tje Spurs the other year mid season…..he wanted to follow LeBron to the crap ass Lakers.

    Thankfully they dumped him on the Raptors.

    The NFL had the same issue last yr when the Raiders guy pulled a Leonard trying to finagle a way onto Tom Brady and the Patriots coattails.

    The NFL brass wisely shut this down because it would have opened the door for every wannabe star to try to for a GSW in the NFL….

    • Replies: @Truth
    @Neoconned


    A big issue is that basketball isn’t played much in America….its all about primadonna ballhogs playing “streetball” where every team is full of “in it for themselves” types who have no interest in being on a team but want to be players on a GSW type super team
     
    Yes, I miss the days of 3 minute possessions and 30 foot setshots into a peach bucket also.
  34. “You can’t teach height” – Red Auerbach

    Auerbach knew he didn’t need a 7 footer when he had a center than ran like a point guard.

    He also knew that he didn’t need to worry about any other team in the NBA other than the one with Wilt Chamberlain. So every time poor Wilt played against the Celtics, he had to deal with Bill Russell’s athleticism for most of the game, then the Auerback changeup with a procession of large, physical backup forwards/centers (“Jungle Jim” Loscutoff, Gene Conley, Clyde Lovellette, Mel Counts) beating on him.

    • Replies: @Bostonvegas
    @Brutusale

    But despite that wilt averaged 28 and 28 or some crazy numbers yet only got those 2 rings

  35. Never been to Americas. Know nothing about basketball – never watched or played it. One thing strikes me as curious when I watch US media – Our Fellow Whites seem obsessed with the sport in a way that doesn’t translate to other American sports (ice hockey, baseball, gridiron). Esp since their physical attributes seem even less suited to this than other sports. Not trying to be scurrilous, but a hint of homoeroticism to the way the Levantine man in sitcoms admires the physical talents of Africans.

    • Replies: @prosa123
    @Ponce Faggy

    People in the US are far more obsessed with football (both NFL and college, high school in some areas) than they are with basketball. The most popular form of basketball is the spring college tournament, which was cancelled this year, in large part because it lends itself to all sorts of gambling.

    , @Buffalo Joe
    @Ponce Faggy

    PF, I am tempted to say that our beloved Tiny Duck took a Creative Writing course online and availed himself of a Thesaurus, but this post lacks the stock TD phrase ..."That's why white girls love black men."

    Replies: @tyrone

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Ponce Faggy


    Not trying to be scurrilous, but a hint of homoeroticism to the way the Levantine man in sitcoms admires the physical talents of Africans.
     
    Civilized Americans have always preferred baseball. Which has always had baggy uniforms. Few of our sports have a literary tradition; baseball's is tops. (Or Topps.)

    Perhaps basketball players have drifted to baggier shorts because they prefer not to be ogled?
  36. @Steve Sailer
    @Anon

    You could make free throws worth 2 points, regular field goals 4 points, and long field goals 5 points.

    Replies: @Hapalong Cassidy, @Anon7, @Muggles

    My unreasonable wish is to have each night’s “game” consist of a best-of-7 series of games played to 15. Each basket is worth one point; first to fifteen wins. Pickup basketball, with fixed teams.

    There would be no point to controlling the pace of the game, no point to dragging out the end of the game (one of its ugliest features these days). Score and win.

    No free throws. If there is a foul called, the ref hands the ball to the fouled team’s point guard at center court, who just brings it down the court in play. If the fouled team makes a basket, the ref once again gives the ball to the fouled team at center court – the penalty consists in giving the fouled team the opportunity to get two baskets. If the fouled team doesn’t make a basket, and the other team gains possession, the ref takes the ball and gives it to the fouled team at center court, giving them their second opportunity to score.

  37. There should be a stat in pro blacketball for yards per carry. What happened to the “Travelling” infraction? And these guys take giant steps.

  38. @Hapalong Cassidy
    @Steve Sailer

    In international rules, the players get 3 shots to make 2. This makes sense, because it reduces the incentive to foul. Think about it, if it weren’t for the fouling out rule, there would be zero incentive not to foul, as the percentage of made free throws will always be less than an un-fouled layup. The 3-for-2 rule reduces that incentive. The international rules also are better in other ways, such as the wider three-second lane, which is a better way to reduces contact under the basket and encourage outside shooting, and the longer 30-second shot clock, which favors more strategy.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber, @I, Libertine, @kaganovitch

    Perhaps you don’t remember that the NBA had a 3 -to-make-2 rule till the early ’80s . It applied after the 4th foul against your team of the quarter, if you missed the shot; also, 2-to-make-1 if you made it.

    The elimination of that rule, and the institution of the 3 point shot around the same time, made the sport much less interesting to watch, IMHO. Like MLB, with its hopped-up ball, the NBA has become a home-run-or-bust game.

  39. @Travis
    Americans are also getting shorter. Even white Americans are getting smaller.

    https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/the-shocking

    Call her The Incredible Shrinking African-American Woman. the average height of black women in the U.S. has been receding, beginning with those born in the late 1960s. The difference in stature between white women and black women has now stretched to three-quarters of an inch and appears to be increasing, according to newly released data from the National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey. https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/os-xpm-2008-12-26-shrink26-story.html

    Replies: @njguy73, @jallynn

    Are some of the people counted as “white” for purposes of average height counted as “Hispanic” in other contexts?

  40. @Brutusale
    @ScarletNumber

    It assuredly is in Boston. In the 60s when the Celtics were winning the NBA championship every year, they drew a smaller crowd at the old Boston Garden than the mediocre (until the arrival of Bobby Orr) Bruins. But hey, Boston is rayciss.

    Pro tip for the single guys: when in a northern city like Boston, go to a hockey game. Many more women, in these parts called Puck Bunnies, than at other pro venues.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber, @Truth, @Buffalo Joe, @Rex Little

    I’ve never heard the term Puck Bunny, I will say that in my experience the women who attend hockey games are more attractive than women who attend basketball games.

  41. @Polynikes
    NBA executives are notoriously idiots when it comes to understanding the Xs and Os of basketball. Many leagues had been playing small ball for decades andmath on the 3pt shot isn’t hard or novel. Rick Pitino talked about it quite about in the 90s and his great UK teams employed a similar strategy.

    What’s reduced the height for NBA players is the rule changes to eliminate its trademark roughness, both under the basket and out in space (ie hand checking). This allowed for smaller quicker players to be on the floor which thereby increased the shooting available to teams.

    Basketball is probably the toughest sport to analyze statistically and it leads to a bunch of nonsense and charlatans that peddle it.

    Replies: @ganderson, @AndrewR, @Hapalong Cassidy, @slumber_j, @Dignan, @1BigJohnson, @1BigJohnson

    >What’s reduced the height for NBA players is the rule changes to eliminate its trademark roughness, both under the basket and out in space (ie hand checking).

    IMHO, it’s more the divergence between the rules for jump shots and the rules for drives. You can foul a jump shooter nowadays w/o actually touching them.

    The modern style reminds me of the 80’s offenses….the teams just run one option tree over-and-over-and-over. And, as a result, both styles are horribly dull to watch.

  42. @Polynikes
    NBA executives are notoriously idiots when it comes to understanding the Xs and Os of basketball. Many leagues had been playing small ball for decades andmath on the 3pt shot isn’t hard or novel. Rick Pitino talked about it quite about in the 90s and his great UK teams employed a similar strategy.

    What’s reduced the height for NBA players is the rule changes to eliminate its trademark roughness, both under the basket and out in space (ie hand checking). This allowed for smaller quicker players to be on the floor which thereby increased the shooting available to teams.

    Basketball is probably the toughest sport to analyze statistically and it leads to a bunch of nonsense and charlatans that peddle it.

    Replies: @ganderson, @AndrewR, @Hapalong Cassidy, @slumber_j, @Dignan, @1BigJohnson, @1BigJohnson

    > his great UK teams employed a similar strategy.

    I remember UK being built around the full court press, not the 3 pointer…

    but anyway, Loyola Marymount circa ’88 was the logical endpoint of the 3 point oriented game… Interestingly, their speed-of-play made the game actually entertaining to watch, despite it consisting of almost all 3’s. But, unfortunately for modern fans, the modern TV timeout schedule effectively obsoleted that style.

    • Replies: @Polynikes
    @1BigJohnson

    Correct. See my other comment on Pitino and the press. But Pitino was a vocal proponent of the 3 saying essentially “ hey my guys only have to make 33% of their 3s to equal everyone else’s 50% fg shooting.”

    And his late UK teams shot a ton of 3s. Equal to some of today’s (or at least up to about 2018) top three point shooting teams when adjusted for length of game and pace.

    Replies: @anon

  43. @Anon
    Dumb black guys with tattoos running around ... not my wheelhouse.

    Replies: @Truth, @Bard of Bumperstickers

    Dumb black guys with tattoos running around … not my wheelhouse.

    Are the tattoos running around, or are the dumb black guys?

    Amazon, Old Sport; this should help:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eats,_Shoots_%26_Leaves

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Truth

    I dangled.

    I'd recommend Bryan Garner over Truss. His is more of a 1960s high school grammer book, no pretense of luring in numbskulls with humor or hipness, very hardcore and 550 pages long, plus he's the author of the successor to Fowler, endorsed by snooty David Foster Wallace.

    https://www.amazon.sg/Chicago-Guide-Grammar-Usage-Punctuation/dp/022618885X

    https://www.amazon.sg/Garners-Modern-English-Usage-Garner/dp/0190491485

    https://harpers.org/wp-content/uploads/HarpersMagazine-2001-04-0070913.pdf

    https://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/21/magazine/another-thing-to-sort-of-pin-on-david-foster-wallace.html

    https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/d-f-w-s-favorite-grammarian

    Replies: @Johnny Rico

  44. @Hapalong Cassidy
    @Polynikes

    Yeah, the rule changes happened after the 2004 season, when the NBA office was upset that their darling Lakers with Shaq and Kobe got their assets handed to them in the finals by the more physical Detroit Pistons. The NBA goes out of its way to protect its glamour teams like the Warriors and Lakers, as well as individual superstars like LeBron. Really, it’s only a slight step up from professional wrestling now.

    Replies: @Barnard

    That was the NBA’s second go round of wishing the Pistons weren’t successful. After the Bad Boys Pistons won two titles they quickly cleared the way for the much more marketable Michael Jordan led Bulls to replace them. Deference to superstars has reached unprecedented levels now with LeBron, there is a clip of him in a pre-Covid game from this past season where he stops dribbling, walks for three steps and then starts again without a whistle. The Jazz player guarding him reacts as you would expect and the ref ignores it.

  45. @slumber_j
    @Polynikes


    math on the 3pt shot isn’t hard or novel
     
    As someone who knows next to nothing about basketball, one of the few things I've wondered about it lately is why it took like 35 years or whatever for people to figure out that the 3-pointer should fundamentally change the way you play the game in the NBA? That was supposed to be the whole point of it after all.

    Replies: @Truth

    It did not take them 35 years to figure out that the 3 pointer would change the way you play the game, it took them 35 years to figure out that practically any clumsy oaf can fairly effectively shoot the ball from 22.75 feet it he does it 500-1000 times a day.

    • Replies: @Muggles
    @Truth


    practically any clumsy oaf can fairly effectively shoot the ball from 22.75 feet it he does it 500-1000 times a day.
     
    Yes, a theory. Why don't you try this for a few months and let us know how you end up.

    These "clumsy guys" also are guarded by other big athletic guys and have to move quickly.

    Most of us, including you, couldn't attempt 100 3 pointers in a day without killing legs and arms.

    Replies: @Truth

  46. “Lots more charts here”

    Laugh out freaking loud. And you guys have the temerity to ridicule comic book nerds.

  47. @Brutusale
    @ScarletNumber

    It assuredly is in Boston. In the 60s when the Celtics were winning the NBA championship every year, they drew a smaller crowd at the old Boston Garden than the mediocre (until the arrival of Bobby Orr) Bruins. But hey, Boston is rayciss.

    Pro tip for the single guys: when in a northern city like Boston, go to a hockey game. Many more women, in these parts called Puck Bunnies, than at other pro venues.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber, @Truth, @Buffalo Joe, @Rex Little

    Pro tip for the single guys: when in a northern city like Boston, go to a hockey game. Many more women, in these parts called Puck Bunnies, than at other pro venues.

    Follow through with the thought here old sport:

    “…And you might be able to even get attention from one if a slick old codger like Phil Esposito or Ray Bourque is not divorced for the third time, we look a little more like them…” (wink).

  48. @Polynikes
    @ganderson

    I don’t know enough about Hockey or Soccer, but I’d guess they are similar in terms of individual free flowing movement operating as one unit that’s hard to isolate in a statistical sense.

    I was thinking more in terms of traditional US sports like Football, baseball, golf, etc...

    Replies: @SunBakedSuburb, @Ganderson

    “golf”

    Golf, like bowling, is not a sport.

    • Agree: Bardon Kaldian
    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @SunBakedSuburb

    SBS, correct. They are competitions like skeet shooting or archery, but they do require a fair degree of skill and practice.

    , @Kratoklastes
    @SunBakedSuburb


    Golf, like bowling, is not a sport.
     
    I would put baseball outside the 'sport' category, too. It's a very very stop-start game.

    Some people want a thing to be called a sport solely because people pay to watch it.

    Games can have skilled participants; the thing that qualifies something as a sport (to my mind) is the requirement for some non-trivial test of physical fitness. So in my taxonomy car racing is a sport, because driving a race-car is physically gruelling.

    There is no such component in baseball, golf, archery, target shooting, snooker and the like. (Mix target shooting with cross-country skiing... that's a sport).

    The ball is in actual play for about 18 minutes of the average game of baseball.

    Of that 18 minutes, less than 6 minutes is time during which the ball is in the field and runners are advancing, and the other 12 minutes is unhit pitches, foul balls and pickoffs. The rest of the time is spent scratching themselves.

    That's according to a Steve Moyer article from 2013 in the WSJ; Politifact did a comprehensive breakdown of the Moyer data at this 2018 piece.

    Cricket is my edge case (i.e., there's a 50% chance that it's an actual sport), and it requires much more fitness than baseball.

    In cricket the batsman remains at-bat until dismissed, which might take a hundred or more pitches ('deliveries'). During this time a batsman will run multiple 22-yard sprints and shuttle-runs. Dehydration is common during a long (batter's) innings.

    The fielding side is often in the field for several hours at a stretch: they stay out there either until 10 batsmen are dismissed, or a certain number of overs - usually 50 - is completed. 50 overs is equal to a minimum of 300 pitches. (In contrast, a fielding innings in baseball generally takes less than 20 pitches, and then everyone repairs to the dugout and sits on their arses).
  49. @Dignan
    @Polynikes

    But when Pitino ran the show in Boston after his time at UK, he failed miserably and mostly blamed it on not getting Tim Duncan in the draft. His Boston teams weren't high usage 3 point teams but that changed when he quit and Jim O'Brien took over.

    Replies: @Polynikes

    This is nerdy inside baseball…uh, basketball type stuff, but as much as Pitino embraced pace and three point shooting he’s an awful Xs and Os coach on offense. And so is everyone from his coaching tree.* He dictated pace by full court pressing on defense which forces the other team to play fast and causes turnovers leading to easy buckets. He then encouraged his guys to take open three’s on the fast break (which he would later allow guys like antoine walker to do on the celtics) after those turnovers.

    But in the NBA you can’t full court press like that. Too many games and the athletes aren’t going to expend themselves that much in the regular season. And when you get Pitno teams into the half court offense, they are very bad at it. He’s a defensive coach.

    *sidenote: this is why it was a hilariously bad hire by the Thunder to get Pitino prodigy Billy Donovan when they wanted a new coach in a last ditch effort to keep Kevin Durant by getting Westbrook to play smarter half court offense and share the ball more. Donovan had about as much chance of figuring that out as that Cochran guy had of solving the Kung Flu in these comments.

    • Replies: @hhsiii
    @Polynikes

    The issue with the press wasn’t too many games, I think. It failed when he was Knicks coach not in regular season so much but in the playoffs. NBA level players with sufficient prep can break the press.

    At least that’s what Al Bianchi said when he fired him in the 80s.

    Pitino is a pretty good d coach at college level. Pretty good motivator. Really good (crooked) recruiter, and spotting underrated recruits. Rozier and Harrell for example. Not sure why Big 4 schools didn’t get Harrell. Perhaps too vibrant, or wanted something.

    Replies: @Hhsiii, @ex-banker

  50. @Brutusale
    @ScarletNumber

    It assuredly is in Boston. In the 60s when the Celtics were winning the NBA championship every year, they drew a smaller crowd at the old Boston Garden than the mediocre (until the arrival of Bobby Orr) Bruins. But hey, Boston is rayciss.

    Pro tip for the single guys: when in a northern city like Boston, go to a hockey game. Many more women, in these parts called Puck Bunnies, than at other pro venues.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber, @Truth, @Buffalo Joe, @Rex Little

    Brutus, lots of NHL players live around here in our town. All seem to be genuinely nice guys and family men, and that says alot.

  51. OT:

  52. @I, Libertine
    The cited article notes that "53% of the NBA’s 7-footers are international players." I wonder what percentage of the NBA's international players are 7-footers. Most of the white ones, I would guess.

    Here's research some guys did recently on the ethnicity of NBA rosters.

    Replies: @Pop Warner

    Good to see they follow the capital conventions for BBBBlack and white

    • Replies: @I, Libertine
    @Pop Warner

    It's one of those nuisances I've gotten used to, like using "they" for the third person singular if sex is indeterminate, instead of "he or she." And using "gender" instead of "sex."

  53. Right up Steve’s alley fairway: SSA.gov’s annual name list is out. One of the fast risers is Niklaus, jumping from #1080 into the top thousand at #972.

    https://www.ssa.gov/oact/babynames/popularity_increase.html

    Words are rising– Onyx, Saint, Stone, Creed, Crew, Baker, Seven, Legacy (Subaru owners?), Reign, Bear, Legend, Talon…

    Harvey rose 34 places, which is surprising. Emmitt’s 37 is not. (Bryant, though, is down a lot.)

    It’s reassuring to see illiteracies such as Xzavier and Skylar sink, as well as slight but annoying misspellings like Tristen and Tristian. Doesn’t anyone read Frankis epic romances anymore?

    Monroe is rising among girls. I guess parents are tiring of Taylor, Tyler, and Madison among 19th-century presidents.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @Reg Cæsar


    Monroe is rising among girls. I guess parents are tiring of Taylor, Tyler, and Madison among 19th-century presidents.
     
    https://media1.tenor.com/images/733bda1a40a6938721f4c9f32d7a3456/tenor.gif?itemid=13434697
    , @prosa123
    @Reg Cæsar

    Words are rising– Onyx, Saint, Stone, Creed, Crew, Baker, Seven, Legacy (Subaru owners?), Reign, Bear, Legend, Talon…

    Onyx is the only one of those that's not completely absurd. Maybe Saint. And I suppose Stone is okay because of the TV guy.


    Monroe is rising among girls. I guess parents are tiring of Taylor, Tyler, and Madison among 19th-century presidents.

    Hopefully Van Buren, Fillmore and Buchanan won't catch on.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    , @Corn
    @Reg Cæsar


    Monroe is rising among girls. I guess parents are tiring of Taylor, Tyler, and Madison among 19th-century presidents.
     
    My cousin’s wife insisted on naming their son Harrison. Apparently ol’ Will and Benjamin have more fans than you think.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

  54. i posted about this exact topic several times about 10 years ago, pointing out that we were at the all time height peak during the 00s. at the time, every team had several 7 foot players, and the tallest players were around 7-5 to 7-6.

    that has since passed. during the late teens the tallest player for a couple years was only 7-1, until 7-1 New York Knicks Porzingis grew into 7-2 or 7-3 Dallas Mavericks Porzingis.

    the centers from 10 to 30 years ago would pulverize the paint players today. anybody who’s watched for decades would easily recognize that.

    NBA play was at it’s all time peak in the 00s. the league is less good now than it was 10 to 20 years ago. i rate the 2020 Heat as the worst team to make it to the finals in more than 30 years. they would lose every finals going back into the 80s.

    on a related note, we’ve probably seen all the best baseball players now, as well. the baseball talent pool is now passed it’s peak. the average pitcher is better than ever, but that’s it. there are very few all time great players playing right now. the same thing happened to the field part of track & field a few decades ago. all the field records are from decades ago.

    not really a sport, but pro wrestling went thru it’s peak about 20 years ago as well.

    • Replies: @Barnard
    @prime noticer

    Part of the reason Iowa's best player returned to college for one more season was questions about how he fits into the NBA game. He is 6'11" and more of bulky, throwback to the typical low post player from the 80s or 90s. Even though he is in the running for college player of the year, his game doesn't translate well to the chuck a 3 pointer or drive to the basket NBA game of today.

    Replies: @Ben tillman

  55. what are the explanations?

    1) part of it was players from europe entering the league and driving up the average height as all the giants who weren’t playing before starting playing in the 90s. but now there are no untapped giants. those guys are all scouted today.

    something similar happened in boxing and ice hockey in the 90s.

    2) the sports Flynn effect such that human sports performance began to approach it’s plateau in the 80s, with all the last incremental improvement probably reached by the 00s.

    in particular, the cohort of American guys born between the 50s and 70s have dominated the planet culturally since the 80s. now they’re on their way out. lower birth rates have prevailed in later decades. super dominant men are no longer being born, or at best, being born at way lower rates.

    yes, there’s billions of third worlders now that weren’t around before – but third worlders are mostly small and weak and not athletic. they don’t factor into sports that much. so it won’t matter how many chinese or indian or mexican or indonesian guys there are – they can never replace the existing sports rosters.

  56. I haven’t given a cent to or watched a minute of the negro bouncyball association for years. So BB players are getting shorter? Are they getting smarter, having more impulse control and being less criminally inclined?

  57. @Pop Warner
    @I, Libertine

    Good to see they follow the capital conventions for BBBBlack and white

    Replies: @I, Libertine

    It’s one of those nuisances I’ve gotten used to, like using “they” for the third person singular if sex is indeterminate, instead of “he or she.” And using “gender” instead of “sex.”

  58. @Ponce Faggy
    Never been to Americas. Know nothing about basketball - never watched or played it. One thing strikes me as curious when I watch US media - Our Fellow Whites seem obsessed with the sport in a way that doesn't translate to other American sports (ice hockey, baseball, gridiron). Esp since their physical attributes seem even less suited to this than other sports. Not trying to be scurrilous, but a hint of homoeroticism to the way the Levantine man in sitcoms admires the physical talents of Africans.

    Replies: @prosa123, @Buffalo Joe, @Reg Cæsar

    People in the US are far more obsessed with football (both NFL and college, high school in some areas) than they are with basketball. The most popular form of basketball is the spring college tournament, which was cancelled this year, in large part because it lends itself to all sorts of gambling.

  59. The NBA finally got the memo that thug ball/streetball doesn’t sell, and starting calling the fouls on everybody (not just superstars) they should’ve been calling for decades. Now, more refined players (i.e. those who can actually shoot and dribble and steal without fouling) can actually play the sport. So big hulking rougher guys get edged out by the smaller dudes (relatively speaking) who can shoot.

    Too bad at the same time they missed the memo on how patriotism sells and cheering on criminals is actually a turn off.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @R.G. Camara

    RG, the NBA is a weathervane. A couple of years ago the league wanted the players to wear tee shirts with short sleeves as a way to hide all the tattoos. That didn't go over with the players. I watch March Madness for my yearly b-ball fix. Best thing about MM is that smaller colleges, often Catholic colleges, have a shot at the national title, something that doesn't happen in football or most other college sports.

  60. @Reg Cæsar
    Right up Steve's alley fairway: SSA.gov's annual name list is out. One of the fast risers is Niklaus, jumping from #1080 into the top thousand at #972.

    https://www.ssa.gov/oact/babynames/popularity_increase.html


    Words are rising-- Onyx, Saint, Stone, Creed, Crew, Baker, Seven, Legacy (Subaru owners?), Reign, Bear, Legend, Talon...

    Harvey rose 34 places, which is surprising. Emmitt's 37 is not. (Bryant, though, is down a lot.)

    It's reassuring to see illiteracies such as Xzavier and Skylar sink, as well as slight but annoying misspellings like Tristen and Tristian. Doesn't anyone read Frankis epic romances anymore?

    Monroe is rising among girls. I guess parents are tiring of Taylor, Tyler, and Madison among 19th-century presidents.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @prosa123, @Corn

    Monroe is rising among girls. I guess parents are tiring of Taylor, Tyler, and Madison among 19th-century presidents.

  61. @Hypnotoad666
    Height is normally distributed with a mean of about 5'9 and a SD of about 3 in. So 6'6 is a full 3 SD above the mean. I believe that works out to only about 1.5 men in a group of ten thousand being that tall. Whereas about 250 men in that same group would be 6'3, which is just 2 SD above the mean. 6'9 and above are real statitistical freaks.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/68%E2%80%9395%E2%80%9399.7_rule

    If you are willing to take a slightly shorter player, however, you are selecting from a far bigger pool of talent for traits like ball-handling and shooting ability.

    But even with those traits at a premium in the modern game, you can see that height is still a dominant factor if they are averaging 6'6.

    Think how many incredible shooters there must be in the 50% of the population below 5'9 that is effectively ineligible for the NBA.

    Replies: @BB753, @Anon7, @prime noticer, @Sean c

    That’s right! You could take all short players, and that kind of league actually exists.

    I once played in a 5’9″ and under league, after one of my housemates’ boyfriends in law school begged me to. In truth, I’m a bit taller, a bit over 5’10”, so I had certain moral qualms.

    It turned out to be okay, since every team had one freakishly large player that towered over the little guys. On our team, that was me.

    I’m telling you, it was a rush.

    You wouldn’t believe how many amazingly good ballplayers there are in the shorter range. One of the guys on our team was whippet thin and about 5’7″ – astonishingly quick, he scored unstoppable layups, he was all-state in New York in high school.

    Another team had a guy about 5’5″ who dribbled and moved at twice normal speed, all the time. Another had a 5’8″ guy who just couldn’t miss at like 35 feet (pre-3 point shot, though).

    I don’t know if you could sell a five-nine and under league to the public, but it was great fun.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @Anon7

    A7, glad you had fun in your league, but in truth, you and your team mates could not play with the big boys. Years ago WNY had Calvin Murphy at Niagara U and the Ernie Digregorio with the Buffalo Braves. Rare is the short man, no matter how quick, who plays D-I B-Ball. Stay safe.

    Replies: @Anon7

  62. @Reg Cæsar
    Right up Steve's alley fairway: SSA.gov's annual name list is out. One of the fast risers is Niklaus, jumping from #1080 into the top thousand at #972.

    https://www.ssa.gov/oact/babynames/popularity_increase.html


    Words are rising-- Onyx, Saint, Stone, Creed, Crew, Baker, Seven, Legacy (Subaru owners?), Reign, Bear, Legend, Talon...

    Harvey rose 34 places, which is surprising. Emmitt's 37 is not. (Bryant, though, is down a lot.)

    It's reassuring to see illiteracies such as Xzavier and Skylar sink, as well as slight but annoying misspellings like Tristen and Tristian. Doesn't anyone read Frankis epic romances anymore?

    Monroe is rising among girls. I guess parents are tiring of Taylor, Tyler, and Madison among 19th-century presidents.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @prosa123, @Corn

    Words are rising– Onyx, Saint, Stone, Creed, Crew, Baker, Seven, Legacy (Subaru owners?), Reign, Bear, Legend, Talon…

    Onyx is the only one of those that’s not completely absurd. Maybe Saint. And I suppose Stone is okay because of the TV guy.

    Monroe is rising among girls. I guess parents are tiring of Taylor, Tyler, and Madison among 19th-century presidents.

    Hopefully Van Buren, Fillmore and Buchanan won’t catch on.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @prosa123


    Onyx is the only one of those that’s not completely absurd.

     

    Creed Taylor has run a notable jazz label for 53 years now. I used to buy their records. He was born in Virginia in 1929, so I assume "Creed" is an ancestral surname.
  63. @Ponce Faggy
    Never been to Americas. Know nothing about basketball - never watched or played it. One thing strikes me as curious when I watch US media - Our Fellow Whites seem obsessed with the sport in a way that doesn't translate to other American sports (ice hockey, baseball, gridiron). Esp since their physical attributes seem even less suited to this than other sports. Not trying to be scurrilous, but a hint of homoeroticism to the way the Levantine man in sitcoms admires the physical talents of Africans.

    Replies: @prosa123, @Buffalo Joe, @Reg Cæsar

    PF, I am tempted to say that our beloved Tiny Duck took a Creative Writing course online and availed himself of a Thesaurus, but this post lacks the stock TD phrase …”That’s why white girls love black men.”

    • Replies: @tyrone
    @Buffalo Joe

    Maybe the Duck got in on some direct action this summer and will soon be telling us how our days are REALLY numbered

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

  64. @SunBakedSuburb
    @Polynikes

    "golf"

    Golf, like bowling, is not a sport.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @Kratoklastes

    SBS, correct. They are competitions like skeet shooting or archery, but they do require a fair degree of skill and practice.

  65. @Hypnotoad666
    Height is normally distributed with a mean of about 5'9 and a SD of about 3 in. So 6'6 is a full 3 SD above the mean. I believe that works out to only about 1.5 men in a group of ten thousand being that tall. Whereas about 250 men in that same group would be 6'3, which is just 2 SD above the mean. 6'9 and above are real statitistical freaks.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/68%E2%80%9395%E2%80%9399.7_rule

    If you are willing to take a slightly shorter player, however, you are selecting from a far bigger pool of talent for traits like ball-handling and shooting ability.

    But even with those traits at a premium in the modern game, you can see that height is still a dominant factor if they are averaging 6'6.

    Think how many incredible shooters there must be in the 50% of the population below 5'9 that is effectively ineligible for the NBA.

    Replies: @BB753, @Anon7, @prime noticer, @Sean c

    “Height is normally distributed with a mean of about 5’9 and a SD of about 3 in.”

    no it’s not.

    HBD on an HBD site, please.

    might as well talk about strength being normally distributed, or, eek, intelligence.

    height is not even normally distributed among europeans.

    the height of the players is dictated by the height of the tallest human groups.

    hypothetically speaking, if some group of 100 million humans had a mean height of 6-4, they would probably account for half of the 360 players, provided they were really into hoops and not some other height related sport.

  66. @Polynikes
    @Dignan

    This is nerdy inside baseball...uh, basketball type stuff, but as much as Pitino embraced pace and three point shooting he’s an awful Xs and Os coach on offense. And so is everyone from his coaching tree.* He dictated pace by full court pressing on defense which forces the other team to play fast and causes turnovers leading to easy buckets. He then encouraged his guys to take open three’s on the fast break (which he would later allow guys like antoine walker to do on the celtics) after those turnovers.

    But in the NBA you can’t full court press like that. Too many games and the athletes aren’t going to expend themselves that much in the regular season. And when you get Pitno teams into the half court offense, they are very bad at it. He’s a defensive coach.


    *sidenote: this is why it was a hilariously bad hire by the Thunder to get Pitino prodigy Billy Donovan when they wanted a new coach in a last ditch effort to keep Kevin Durant by getting Westbrook to play smarter half court offense and share the ball more. Donovan had about as much chance of figuring that out as that Cochran guy had of solving the Kung Flu in these comments.

    Replies: @hhsiii

    The issue with the press wasn’t too many games, I think. It failed when he was Knicks coach not in regular season so much but in the playoffs. NBA level players with sufficient prep can break the press.

    At least that’s what Al Bianchi said when he fired him in the 80s.

    Pitino is a pretty good d coach at college level. Pretty good motivator. Really good (crooked) recruiter, and spotting underrated recruits. Rozier and Harrell for example. Not sure why Big 4 schools didn’t get Harrell. Perhaps too vibrant, or wanted something.

    • Replies: @Hhsiii
    @hhsiii

    Ok I may not have the best memory of his Knicks tenure:

    https://hoopsanalyst.com/?p=1743

    , @ex-banker
    @hhsiii

    Pitino (or his assistants) deployed a powerful strategy in the recruitment of Harrell:


    In the report, Powell says Harrell had sex during the parties as a recruit and later as a Louisville player, and it all was paid for by McGee.
     
    https://www.chron.com/sports/rockets/article/Rockets-Montrezl-Harrell-mentioned-in-Louisville-6579655.php
  67. @ScarletNumber
    @Anon


    a relatively recent addition ... the shot clock
     
    The NBA adopted the shot clock in 1954, its ninth season. The league would've died without it. The NCAA was much slower on the uptake, waiting 30 years after the NBA. Dean Smith almost killed college basketball with his Four Corners offense when leading. High school still doesn't have one, but I think that is more a financial consideration than anything else, since you have to hire a competent adult to run it.

    Replies: @Anon, @Ben tillman

    Yes, right. Thanks for that. Had no idea the NBA had a shot clock going back that far. I knew it was less than 40 years old for college ball.

  68. NBA Players Are Getting Shorter

    Where it counts most?


  69. @Anon7
    Isn't the NBA the big round ball sport dominated by black guys that wiped itself out because the millionaire black guys were lecturing everyone about how everything was unfair?

    It was something like that. Anyway, didn't most people just stop watching? I certainly did, and found that my life was not diminished in any way. Same for that one with the ellipsoid ball, what do they call it, NFL.

    I've been watching snooker instead. Watch Ronnie O'Sullivan run the table (not what they call it in snooker), anyway, shoot a maximum break, a 147, in the shortest time ever filmed; start at 1:10.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3C7I5lRZII

    Ronnie never lectures anybody about anything, bless him.

    Replies: @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Bard of Bumperstickers

    Yep. I only clicked on this post to see how many iSteve commenters enjoy showering money and affection on people who hate them.

    • Troll: ScarletNumber
  70. It seems like most of the major sports are moving towards some homogenization of player type, with the notable exception of football. Baseball: the Money ball ideal seems to make all players midsize but muscle bound and toolsy. Basketball is more interchangeable per the original post, and if memory serves hockey is ditching the larger goon defensive players for faster skaters, so that the D can keep up and go on the attack. Football is the one throwback because the specifics of position groups are almost mandated to specialize—at least on the lines.

    It does seem, too, that fitness-training-nutrition have taken over all the sports—even golf! Strength matters everywhere and I imagine that means large or small outliers perhaps lose something in some unidentified and sport specific power to size efficiency ratio.

    The thing about trends however is that they go until they don’t. Which sounds tautologous and stupid but eventually a coach will find a way to bust the existing paradigm and then the ideal player and strategy shifts again. In the 1970s the Dutch national Soccer Team revolutionized a more interchangeable style, with players overlapping and swapping out despite position. That led most leagues to emphasize ball skills and fitness, with perhaps the high water mark coming with Spain’s World Cup Triumph in 2010. But try to win now with passing and attacking and you’re more likely to lose to a park-the-bus-and-counterattack team, with I think size mattering more.

  71. Aren’t American’s in general getting shorter? More proof the US peaked during the Reagan presidency.

    • Replies: @Anonymous Jew
    @George

    White males have stayed about the exact same height since Gen-X with very little increase over Boomers (looking at CDC data and correcting for age). If you look at ALL races then yes, Americans are getting shorter due to the influx of Asians and Mestizos.

  72. @Steve Sailer
    @Anon

    You could make free throws worth 2 points, regular field goals 4 points, and long field goals 5 points.

    Replies: @Hapalong Cassidy, @Anon7, @Muggles

    My own take on this is that sooner or later, a half court or better shot will be worth 4 points.

    The over-and-back foul penalty would still be in place as follows: any over half court ball in possession of the offensive team, to avoid the penalty, would have to be taken as a shot subject to the usual shot clock, close enough to the basket to count (though could be a miss).

    That would encourage very long range bombing, which would take extreme precision plus very powerful legs.

    You can of course now take a behind half court line shot but if made, it’s only 3.

    You could also make the over-and-back penalty not just a possession loss but a one point foul shot plus possession. This would discourage “gaming the rule” for 4 when the actual shot isn’t taken or realistic.

    With improvements in shooting, this seems bound to happen. Very tall guys near the basket might also be more useful defenders since 4 pointers would have to be high arc.

    Would create a lot more winnable close games. WNBA and college ball wouldn’t have to follow this.

  73. @Brutusale

    “You can’t teach height” – Red Auerbach
     
    Auerbach knew he didn't need a 7 footer when he had a center than ran like a point guard.

    He also knew that he didn't need to worry about any other team in the NBA other than the one with Wilt Chamberlain. So every time poor Wilt played against the Celtics, he had to deal with Bill Russell's athleticism for most of the game, then the Auerback changeup with a procession of large, physical backup forwards/centers ("Jungle Jim" Loscutoff, Gene Conley, Clyde Lovellette, Mel Counts) beating on him.

    Replies: @Bostonvegas

    But despite that wilt averaged 28 and 28 or some crazy numbers yet only got those 2 rings

  74. @prime noticer
    i posted about this exact topic several times about 10 years ago, pointing out that we were at the all time height peak during the 00s. at the time, every team had several 7 foot players, and the tallest players were around 7-5 to 7-6.

    that has since passed. during the late teens the tallest player for a couple years was only 7-1, until 7-1 New York Knicks Porzingis grew into 7-2 or 7-3 Dallas Mavericks Porzingis.

    the centers from 10 to 30 years ago would pulverize the paint players today. anybody who's watched for decades would easily recognize that.

    NBA play was at it's all time peak in the 00s. the league is less good now than it was 10 to 20 years ago. i rate the 2020 Heat as the worst team to make it to the finals in more than 30 years. they would lose every finals going back into the 80s.

    on a related note, we've probably seen all the best baseball players now, as well. the baseball talent pool is now passed it's peak. the average pitcher is better than ever, but that's it. there are very few all time great players playing right now. the same thing happened to the field part of track & field a few decades ago. all the field records are from decades ago.

    not really a sport, but pro wrestling went thru it's peak about 20 years ago as well.

    Replies: @Barnard

    Part of the reason Iowa’s best player returned to college for one more season was questions about how he fits into the NBA game. He is 6’11” and more of bulky, throwback to the typical low post player from the 80s or 90s. Even though he is in the running for college player of the year, his game doesn’t translate well to the chuck a 3 pointer or drive to the basket NBA game of today.

    • Replies: @Ben tillman
    @Barnard

    The solution is to turn three-pointers into 2.5-pointers. Move the line if necessary.

  75. @Truth
    @slumber_j

    It did not take them 35 years to figure out that the 3 pointer would change the way you play the game, it took them 35 years to figure out that practically any clumsy oaf can fairly effectively shoot the ball from 22.75 feet it he does it 500-1000 times a day.

    Replies: @Muggles

    practically any clumsy oaf can fairly effectively shoot the ball from 22.75 feet it he does it 500-1000 times a day.

    Yes, a theory. Why don’t you try this for a few months and let us know how you end up.

    These “clumsy guys” also are guarded by other big athletic guys and have to move quickly.

    Most of us, including you, couldn’t attempt 100 3 pointers in a day without killing legs and arms.

    • Replies: @Truth
    @Muggles


    Most of us, including you, couldn’t attempt 100 3 pointers in a day without killing legs and arms.
     
    Well, I am 54. And I had somebody rebound for me, I would STILL be a much better 3 point shooter a year from now than I am now.

    And I played basketball for probably 8-10 hours a week from roughly age 17-35.
  76. @Buffalo Joe
    @Ponce Faggy

    PF, I am tempted to say that our beloved Tiny Duck took a Creative Writing course online and availed himself of a Thesaurus, but this post lacks the stock TD phrase ..."That's why white girls love black men."

    Replies: @tyrone

    Maybe the Duck got in on some direct action this summer and will soon be telling us how our days are REALLY numbered

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @tyrone


    Maybe the Duck got in on some direct action this summer and will soon be telling us how our days are REALLY numbered

     

    Or maybe he attended a riot peaceful protest and got flambéed.


    https://i.ytimg.com/vi/tfbjCBFNVQ0/maxresdefault.jpg
  77. @BB753
    @Hypnotoad666

    It's pretty easy to fix that problem. The hoop should sit a foot below where it's now and you could enjoy an actual sport with skilled athletes of normal height, not a freakshow.

    Replies: @Abolish_public_education

    The blogger has noted the necessity of re-examining the rules of sports, every few years, in order to eject the anachronisms.

    A ten-foot basket was reasonable back when six foot-tallish players were the norm, Alcindor was a freak, etc.

    Today’s players — even the shorties — can set/grab a quarter on/off the top of the backboard.

    The basket needs to be raised to 16 feet.

    • LOL: BB753
    • Replies: @anon
    @Abolish_public_education

    No, they don't. The data on standing vertical reach and jumping ability, collected on most players who enter the NBA, are publicly available. Do the math.

    The amount of nonsense in the comments on this topic is much higher than typical. Obviously, conservative white dudes don't watch the NBA. I finally stopped doing so myself after they painted the name of a terrorist organization on the court and required the players to wear slogans promoting outright lies on their jerseys. Apparently, the no-white-males rule on national pregame and halftime shows, and its biggest star staging an anti-white hoax at his house wasn't enough. Yes, I'm ashamed it took all that for me to quit, I do love basketball.

    Replies: @BB753, @silviosilver

  78. @ScarletNumber
    @Anon


    a relatively recent addition ... the shot clock
     
    The NBA adopted the shot clock in 1954, its ninth season. The league would've died without it. The NCAA was much slower on the uptake, waiting 30 years after the NBA. Dean Smith almost killed college basketball with his Four Corners offense when leading. High school still doesn't have one, but I think that is more a financial consideration than anything else, since you have to hire a competent adult to run it.

    Replies: @Anon, @Ben tillman

    Dean Smith’s four-corners was even worse when his team was trailing. Who can forget the time he played the four corners against Duke in FIRST HALF.

    Halftime score was Duke 7.

    Just Duke 7. The Heels didn’t score.

    Final was Duke 47, UNC 40.

    • Replies: @Hhsiii
    @Ben tillman

    I remember that game well.

    But that wasn’t the first time that happened. Norm Sloan used it against South Carolina and there was an earlier game with Duke.

    But remember UNC beat favored Duke in the ACC championship game the next week. It may have been a two game strategy. Or just UNC was better and Dean blew game 1 (they played Duke 4 times that year).

    Replies: @Ben tillman

    , @ScarletNumber
    @Ben tillman

    February 24, 1979. You're welcome.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0bWwD8uSds

    Replies: @hhsiii, @hhsiii, @Ben tillman

  79. OT

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/oct/20/caren-act-san-francisco-racist-911-calls

    Fed up with white people calling 911 about people of color selling water bottles, barbecuing or otherwise going about their lives, San Francisco leaders are set to approve hate crime legislation giving the targets of those calls the ability to sue the caller.

    The Board of Supervisors will vote Tuesday on the Caution Against Racial and Exploitative Non-Emergencies Act, also known as the Caren legislation. It’s a nod to a popular meme using the name “Karen” to describe an entitled white woman whose actions stem from her privilege, such as using police to target people of color.

    All 11 supervisors have signed on to the legislation, guaranteeing it will pass, despite some criticism that the name is sexist and divisive. It comes amid a national reckoning on race driven by the police killings of Black Americans, as well as instances where white people called for officers to investigate people of color.

    In May, Amy Cooper, a white woman…

    Wonder how many white people this’ll kill?

    Meanwhile in Bongland …

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/20/teaching-white-privilege-is-a-fact-breaks-the-law-minister-says

    Also in the UK, Boris is trying to lock down Manchester, and the region’s Labour pols aren’t having it. Interesting times.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @YetAnotherAnon

    YetAnother, this is why when you read SF Gate the commenters call them the Board of Stupidvisors.

  80. @hhsiii
    @Polynikes

    The issue with the press wasn’t too many games, I think. It failed when he was Knicks coach not in regular season so much but in the playoffs. NBA level players with sufficient prep can break the press.

    At least that’s what Al Bianchi said when he fired him in the 80s.

    Pitino is a pretty good d coach at college level. Pretty good motivator. Really good (crooked) recruiter, and spotting underrated recruits. Rozier and Harrell for example. Not sure why Big 4 schools didn’t get Harrell. Perhaps too vibrant, or wanted something.

    Replies: @Hhsiii, @ex-banker

    Ok I may not have the best memory of his Knicks tenure:

    https://hoopsanalyst.com/?p=1743

    • Thanks: Polynikes
  81. @Ben tillman
    @ScarletNumber

    Dean Smith’s four-corners was even worse when his team was trailing. Who can forget the time he played the four corners against Duke in FIRST HALF.

    Halftime score was Duke 7.

    Just Duke 7. The Heels didn’t score.

    Final was Duke 47, UNC 40.

    Replies: @Hhsiii, @ScarletNumber

    I remember that game well.

    But that wasn’t the first time that happened. Norm Sloan used it against South Carolina and there was an earlier game with Duke.

    But remember UNC beat favored Duke in the ACC championship game the next week. It may have been a two game strategy. Or just UNC was better and Dean blew game 1 (they played Duke 4 times that year).

    • Replies: @Ben tillman
    @Hhsiii

    Thats right. I recall the game the following week.

    I also recall Sloan as State’s coach, but USC in the ACC was just before my time.

    Replies: @hhsiii

  82. Poll watcher: I can prove massive voter fraud using a stack of fake IDs, of which I have photos.
    MSM: …
    The Internet: He got a Madonna autograph and complains about its alignment?
    https://nationalfile.com/exclusive-texas-poll-watcher-testifies-on-2020-voter-fraud-in-houston-has-photos/

  83. @peterike

    Over the years, big men coming from abroad, particularly from Europe, have proved to be more skillful with the ball in their hands. They’re educated to play a team basketball, share the ball and learn to read the game.

     

    Hmmm, I wonder if there's another aspect of those white men from Europe that makes them "play a team basketball, share the ball and learn to read the game."

    Oh wait, sorry. It just says "big men...from Europe." Nothing about their being white. My bad!

    Replies: @Steve in Greensboro

    Over the years, big men coming from abroad, particularly from Europe, have proved to be more skillful with the ball in their hands. They’re educated to play a team basketball, share the ball and learn to read the game

    I think these very concepts (team play, sharing, learning to read) were described as “aspects of whiteness” in the Smithsonian “Aspects and Assumptions of White Culture” from the National Museum of Af-Am History and Culture, a wonderful Rosetta Stone for us whites to understand our Black masters.

    White people should be barred from the game, regardless of the fact that it was invented by a white guy. Only Blacks should be allowed to play it. Only Blacks should be allowed to watch it. These changes are necessary to avoid cultural appropriation.

  84. @Neoconned
    A big issue is that basketball isn't played much in America....its all about primadonna ballhogs playing "streetball" where every team is full of "in it for themselves" types who have no interest in being on a team but want to be players on a GSW type super team. Its the same reason Leonard raised every manner of hell to leave tje Spurs the other year mid season.....he wanted to follow LeBron to the crap ass Lakers.

    Thankfully they dumped him on the Raptors.

    The NFL had the same issue last yr when the Raiders guy pulled a Leonard trying to finagle a way onto Tom Brady and the Patriots coattails.

    The NFL brass wisely shut this down because it would have opened the door for every wannabe star to try to for a GSW in the NFL....

    Replies: @Truth

    A big issue is that basketball isn’t played much in America….its all about primadonna ballhogs playing “streetball” where every team is full of “in it for themselves” types who have no interest in being on a team but want to be players on a GSW type super team

    Yes, I miss the days of 3 minute possessions and 30 foot setshots into a peach bucket also.

  85. @Hapalong Cassidy
    @Steve Sailer

    In international rules, the players get 3 shots to make 2. This makes sense, because it reduces the incentive to foul. Think about it, if it weren’t for the fouling out rule, there would be zero incentive not to foul, as the percentage of made free throws will always be less than an un-fouled layup. The 3-for-2 rule reduces that incentive. The international rules also are better in other ways, such as the wider three-second lane, which is a better way to reduces contact under the basket and encourage outside shooting, and the longer 30-second shot clock, which favors more strategy.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber, @I, Libertine, @kaganovitch

    In international rules, the players get 3 shots to make 2. This makes sense, because it reduces the incentive to foul. Think about it, if it weren’t for the fouling out rule, there would be zero incentive not to foul, as the percentage of made free throws will always be less than an un-fouled layup.

    It ain’t necessarily so. For example , Steph Curry’s layup percentage is in the neighborhood of %63. His free throw percentage is north of .900. So he has a .81 chance of scoring 2 points on foul shots vs. a .63 chance on a layup. Aside from that, there is the possibility of a 3 point play ,with and 1, that provides negative incentive to foul.

  86. @Muggles
    @Truth


    practically any clumsy oaf can fairly effectively shoot the ball from 22.75 feet it he does it 500-1000 times a day.
     
    Yes, a theory. Why don't you try this for a few months and let us know how you end up.

    These "clumsy guys" also are guarded by other big athletic guys and have to move quickly.

    Most of us, including you, couldn't attempt 100 3 pointers in a day without killing legs and arms.

    Replies: @Truth

    Most of us, including you, couldn’t attempt 100 3 pointers in a day without killing legs and arms.

    Well, I am 54. And I had somebody rebound for me, I would STILL be a much better 3 point shooter a year from now than I am now.

    And I played basketball for probably 8-10 hours a week from roughly age 17-35.

  87. @George
    Aren't American's in general getting shorter? More proof the US peaked during the Reagan presidency.

    Replies: @Anonymous Jew

    White males have stayed about the exact same height since Gen-X with very little increase over Boomers (looking at CDC data and correcting for age). If you look at ALL races then yes, Americans are getting shorter due to the influx of Asians and Mestizos.

  88. @Hypnotoad666
    Height is normally distributed with a mean of about 5'9 and a SD of about 3 in. So 6'6 is a full 3 SD above the mean. I believe that works out to only about 1.5 men in a group of ten thousand being that tall. Whereas about 250 men in that same group would be 6'3, which is just 2 SD above the mean. 6'9 and above are real statitistical freaks.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/68%E2%80%9395%E2%80%9399.7_rule

    If you are willing to take a slightly shorter player, however, you are selecting from a far bigger pool of talent for traits like ball-handling and shooting ability.

    But even with those traits at a premium in the modern game, you can see that height is still a dominant factor if they are averaging 6'6.

    Think how many incredible shooters there must be in the 50% of the population below 5'9 that is effectively ineligible for the NBA.

    Replies: @BB753, @Anon7, @prime noticer, @Sean c

    That seems to be way off based on personal experience. I would say most high school basketball teams have at least one 6’6 player from an average pool of around 750 boys. This would not even count those not playing basketball and boys who haven’t even finished growing. My high school at a snapshot freshman year had 5 6’6″ or higher playing basketball. And one 6’7″ future NFL player who didnt play basketball. That would be out of 600 boys. My high school did not recruit basketball players either.

    • Replies: @Hypnotoad666
    @Sean c


    That seems to be way off based on personal experience.

     

    Sean -- You're right. I messed up the calculation. Supposedly 99.73% of a normal distribution are within 3 SD of the mean and .27% are 3SD away from the mean. Half of those are on the right tail at +3SD, with the other half on the left tail at -3SD. So about .135% of males, or 1.35 per 1,000 would be above 3SD, or 6'6.

    I probably got it right this time because that works out to exactly what you observed: .135% x 750 = 1.01 guys would be expected to be over 6'6 at your school with 750 boys.
  89. I don’t follow M$&@ Ball, but I do find this interesting:

    https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-6d79f4565e5452ea8c8b3b9e2d13d2cd

    For people that are interested, The Sports Gene is a great book that explains why different physiques excel in different sports (eg distance runners tend to be short with relatively long legs while swimmers tend to be tall with relatively short legs)

    https://www.amazon.com/Sports-Gene-Extraordinary-Athletic-Performance/dp/161723012XP

  90. In the future, every NBA player will be a 6′-6″ 215 pound shooting forward.

    In the future, the NBA will hopefully be broke.

    • Replies: @Truth
    @silviosilver


    In the future, the NBA will hopefully be broke.
     
    Tomorrow morning, you will certainly be broke.

    Concern yourself with what's important, Old Sport.
  91. They’re getting dumber too.

  92. @Hhsiii
    @Ben tillman

    I remember that game well.

    But that wasn’t the first time that happened. Norm Sloan used it against South Carolina and there was an earlier game with Duke.

    But remember UNC beat favored Duke in the ACC championship game the next week. It may have been a two game strategy. Or just UNC was better and Dean blew game 1 (they played Duke 4 times that year).

    Replies: @Ben tillman

    Thats right. I recall the game the following week.

    I also recall Sloan as State’s coach, but USC in the ACC was just before my time.

    • Replies: @hhsiii
    @Ben tillman

    1968 ACC Tournament. Also before my time, or memory that is. And it was NC State over 6th ranked Duke. 12-10.

    1970 ACC Tournament State beat SC by a more robust 42-39.

    Ah, Dean did try it in 1966 ACC Tournament, losing to Duke 21-20. That Duke team went to Final 4.

    But I don’t think any of those games had a scoreless half.

    I think the back breaker that led to shot clock was a 40s scoring game between Worthy and Jordan led UNC versus Sampson’s Virginia in 1982. Of course Virginia keeps teams in the 40s now with a shot clock.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

  93. @Barnard
    @prime noticer

    Part of the reason Iowa's best player returned to college for one more season was questions about how he fits into the NBA game. He is 6'11" and more of bulky, throwback to the typical low post player from the 80s or 90s. Even though he is in the running for college player of the year, his game doesn't translate well to the chuck a 3 pointer or drive to the basket NBA game of today.

    Replies: @Ben tillman

    The solution is to turn three-pointers into 2.5-pointers. Move the line if necessary.

  94. @1BigJohnson
    @Polynikes

    > his great UK teams employed a similar strategy.

    I remember UK being built around the full court press, not the 3 pointer...

    but anyway, Loyola Marymount circa '88 was the logical endpoint of the 3 point oriented game... Interestingly, their speed-of-play made the game actually entertaining to watch, despite it consisting of almost all 3's. But, unfortunately for modern fans, the modern TV timeout schedule effectively obsoleted that style.

    Replies: @Polynikes

    Correct. See my other comment on Pitino and the press. But Pitino was a vocal proponent of the 3 saying essentially “ hey my guys only have to make 33% of their 3s to equal everyone else’s 50% fg shooting.”

    And his late UK teams shot a ton of 3s. Equal to some of today’s (or at least up to about 2018) top three point shooting teams when adjusted for length of game and pace.

    • Replies: @anon
    @Polynikes

    Pitino ball worked when he had a bunch of extremely athletic blacks pressing less-talented college teams (i.e., those whose coaches did less illegal recruiting crap than Pitino). It didn't work in the NBA or Europe (he coached in Greece recently). He was a total failure in Boston, even though his Celtics team had some of his former Kentucky stars. His famous "Larry Bird, Kevin McHale aren't walking through that door ... all the negativity in this town sucks" resignation speech is his lasting legacy in Boston.
    I was a Celtics fan these days and couldn't wait to be rid of him after all the excitement during his coronation as the new Red Auerbach of the Boston Celtics. But Red (whom Pitino unceremoniously shoved aside) understood it was about talent, basketball IQ and team spirit, not just expending more effort on the court. The legendary Celtics teams of the 60s, 70s, and 80s were led by highly intelligent, team basketball-type of guys - Sharman, Cousy, Russell, Heinsohn, Havlicek, Cowens, Bird. Not coincidentally, the teams were very white, with some high-character black players like Russell, Jo Jo White, Sam and KC Jones and others.
    The NBA has tried its hardest over the years to help the Lakers reach the Celtics' 17 championships to counter its legacy of white-dominated basketball. Finally it's succeeded this summer in the "NBA bubble" with no fans. When the NBA's spoiled brats were protesting the demise of yet another jogger by refusing to play, I was so hopeful the NBA would go away forever. Unfortunately, in the wake of NBA's race-baiting and subsequent huge viewership losses, Silver announced they'd tone down the BLM crap for next season. We need to support the campaign to pay the WNBA "stars" the same salaries as the NBA stars, which would bankrupt the NBA, the sugar-daddy of the lesbian-tranny league.

  95. I haven’t given a cent to or watched a minute of the n—o bouncyball association for years. So BB players are getting shorter? Are they getting smarter, having more impulse control and being less criminally inclined?

  96. Off topic Tucker Carlson has a NY Post editor on today who stated that the Facebook censor team are all Chinese National immigrants. The model minority strikes again.

    Saw an AD for Vaseline in TV. An 8 months pregnant black woman talking to her unborn baby. It was a diatribe about 40o years of oppression and persecution and revenge is at hand vote for Biden and Harris. Vaseline is owned by Unilever. The diatribe was very BLM extremist.

    Netflix has a movie about the trial of the Chicago 7 rioters in the late 196os just in time for the election. It keeps popping up heading the home page Who under the age of 60 remembers that?

  97. @Ponce Faggy
    Never been to Americas. Know nothing about basketball - never watched or played it. One thing strikes me as curious when I watch US media - Our Fellow Whites seem obsessed with the sport in a way that doesn't translate to other American sports (ice hockey, baseball, gridiron). Esp since their physical attributes seem even less suited to this than other sports. Not trying to be scurrilous, but a hint of homoeroticism to the way the Levantine man in sitcoms admires the physical talents of Africans.

    Replies: @prosa123, @Buffalo Joe, @Reg Cæsar

    Not trying to be scurrilous, but a hint of homoeroticism to the way the Levantine man in sitcoms admires the physical talents of Africans.

    Civilized Americans have always preferred baseball. Which has always had baggy uniforms. Few of our sports have a literary tradition; baseball’s is tops. (Or Topps.)

    Perhaps basketball players have drifted to baggier shorts because they prefer not to be ogled?

  98. Anon[298] • Disclaimer says:
    @Truth
    @Anon


    Dumb black guys with tattoos running around … not my wheelhouse.
     
    Are the tattoos running around, or are the dumb black guys?

    Amazon, Old Sport; this should help:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eats,_Shoots_%26_Leaves

    Replies: @Anon

    I dangled.

    I’d recommend Bryan Garner over Truss. His is more of a 1960s high school grammer book, no pretense of luring in numbskulls with humor or hipness, very hardcore and 550 pages long, plus he’s the author of the successor to Fowler, endorsed by snooty David Foster Wallace.

    https://www.amazon.sg/Chicago-Guide-Grammar-Usage-Punctuation/dp/022618885X

    https://www.amazon.sg/Garners-Modern-English-Usage-Garner/dp/0190491485

    https://harpers.org/wp-content/uploads/HarpersMagazine-2001-04-0070913.pdf

    https://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/21/magazine/another-thing-to-sort-of-pin-on-david-foster-wallace.html

    https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/d-f-w-s-favorite-grammarian

    • Replies: @Johnny Rico
    @Anon

    Yeah. You got pwned.

  99. @tyrone
    @Buffalo Joe

    Maybe the Duck got in on some direct action this summer and will soon be telling us how our days are REALLY numbered

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Maybe the Duck got in on some direct action this summer and will soon be telling us how our days are REALLY numbered

    Or maybe he attended a riot peaceful protest and got flambéed.

  100. @prosa123
    @Reg Cæsar

    Words are rising– Onyx, Saint, Stone, Creed, Crew, Baker, Seven, Legacy (Subaru owners?), Reign, Bear, Legend, Talon…

    Onyx is the only one of those that's not completely absurd. Maybe Saint. And I suppose Stone is okay because of the TV guy.


    Monroe is rising among girls. I guess parents are tiring of Taylor, Tyler, and Madison among 19th-century presidents.

    Hopefully Van Buren, Fillmore and Buchanan won't catch on.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Onyx is the only one of those that’s not completely absurd.

    Creed Taylor has run a notable jazz label for 53 years now. I used to buy their records. He was born in Virginia in 1929, so I assume “Creed” is an ancestral surname.

  101. @Anon7
    Isn't the NBA the big round ball sport dominated by black guys that wiped itself out because the millionaire black guys were lecturing everyone about how everything was unfair?

    It was something like that. Anyway, didn't most people just stop watching? I certainly did, and found that my life was not diminished in any way. Same for that one with the ellipsoid ball, what do they call it, NFL.

    I've been watching snooker instead. Watch Ronnie O'Sullivan run the table (not what they call it in snooker), anyway, shoot a maximum break, a 147, in the shortest time ever filmed; start at 1:10.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3C7I5lRZII

    Ronnie never lectures anybody about anything, bless him.

    Replies: @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Bard of Bumperstickers

    Physical height notwithstanding, by the symbolic shortening of “taking a knee”, they’ve lost social stature. No mysterious cause there. To hell with ’em – poor deluded man-children.

    The lessening of physical height has been noted generally across the populace, as acknowledged elsewhere in these comments. Contributing factors must include modern diet and lifestyle, and possibly environmental factors such as chemical pollution and electrical and microwave fields. Average worldwide IQ has been reduced, too, possibly due also to who reproduces and who does not.

    A lot of good things seem retrograde. It’s not as if it’s inevitable. May Trump triumph three Tuesdays from now, the brakeman-in-chief on the deep state railroad’s express train to perdition.

  102. Excessive professionalization has ruined every sport under the sun.

    • Replies: @Muggles
    @Peterike


    Excessive professionalization has ruined every sport under the sun.
     
    Odd remark. What is "excessive professionalization"?

    When people play a sport full time, as a professional, and don't work at other occupations, this is what has always been done by the best players in most sports.

    How or when did it become "excessive"? Didn't go back to the farm in the off season?

    People know a lot more about the human body and performance in almost all sports. Pay is much higher now too. Very few can compete at the highest levels part time. Even Olympic athletes are often full time at doing their sport. They just get paid in some roundabout way. The Olympic basketball teams are in the major nations all pros.

    Pre 1960, say, when sports didn't pay enough to live on year around, you had some semi pros who did other work. Some still do in their off seasons. Some sports pay pros so much they never have to develop any other skills.

    People start training earlier, with much better coaching from day one. There are still occasional "walk-ons" in some sports, but most are trained in youth leagues or collegiate teams or sports camps.

    It is different now, players are better (and few are able to stay juiced up on steroids like before). But nearly every profession, sports or not, has better participants, smarter, better trained, etc.

    Unless you deliberately handicap players, the "best" are only going to get better over time, absent rules changes. If you don't define "excessive superiority" for us, you aren't making a good point.

    Replies: @prosa123, @prosa123

  103. @AndrewR
    Muggsy Bogues vindicated!

    OT: on today's episode of "Then, One Day, For No Reason at All," we examine an article on HuffPo by a social worker named Feldman who ratger unambiguously argues that we need to let the Sacklers/etc off the hook because white people are racist and like to get high

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5a304403e4b04bd8793e9535/amp

    Replies: @jon

    She really leans into the “fellow white people” shtick:

    lots of us white folks were innocent victims … it is simply not true

    white Americans lying to ourselves

    a pretty hefty admission for many of us white folks to make

    a way that paints us white folks as innocent victims

    It is time we stop causing harm with our lie and start facing up to our truth, white America

  104. @Anon
    OT

    Super far left magazine The Jacobin thinks the Governor Whitmer assassination plot was a stock FBI entrapment.

    https://www.jacobinmag.com/2020/10/gretchen-whitmer-kidnapping-fbi-domestic-terrorism

    These guys often criticise progressives from their left flank, so it can make for funny reading.

    Replies: @jon

    Jacobin, Jimmy Dore, Glen Greenwald – they are all like that, makes for interesting reading/watching.

  105. @peterike
    @unit472


    I imagine NBA salaries will be shrinking along with the height of its players due to their turning off at least half of the public with their infantile political tantrums.
     
    Possibly, but that means nothing to the current players who have already made their millions. And blacks aren't all that good when it comes to thinking about the future. So expect no change in mentality.

    Current high school basketball standouts might have a complaint to make in the future. But hell, even if they cut the salaries in half, they'd still be making way more than they should. The insanity of it all is pretty insane.

    For the 2018-19 season, the average NBA salary is $6,388,007, per Basketball-Reference. Like most pro sports leagues, the NBA features a wide range of salaries.

    The minimum NBA salary (i.e. the least amount of money a player can be paid) ranges from $838,464 to $2,393,887, per Hoops Hype. The minimum amount of money a player can make depends on his experience. The rookie minimum salary is $838,464, while a veteran with 10 or more years of experience can make no less than $2,393,887.

    Replies: @jon, @Kratoklastes

    The rookie minimum salary is $838,464, while a veteran with 10 or more years of experience can make no less than $2,393,887.

    That’s nuts. How does that compare to other leagues?

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @jon

    jon, my wife informed me that Judy Sheindlin of TV's "The People's Court" makes $47 MILLION per year. Compare that to real jurists.

    Replies: @Peterike, @ScarletNumber

  106. @Ben tillman
    @ScarletNumber

    Dean Smith’s four-corners was even worse when his team was trailing. Who can forget the time he played the four corners against Duke in FIRST HALF.

    Halftime score was Duke 7.

    Just Duke 7. The Heels didn’t score.

    Final was Duke 47, UNC 40.

    Replies: @Hhsiii, @ScarletNumber

    February 24, 1979. You’re welcome.

    • Replies: @hhsiii
    @ScarletNumber

    Rich Yonaker took the first Tar Heel shot. Air ball. And the Duke fans let him have it. With a proto air ball chant, which has evolved quite a bit since then.

    Duke began that year ranked number 1. Gminski, Spanarkel and Gene Banks. When Banks was recruited, the question was who was better, Banks out of Philly or Brooklyn’s own Albert King, who ended up at Maryland. Only a few made the case for Earvin Johnson.

    Duke beat the Heels in the early season Big 4, the successor to the old Dixie Classic.

    Duke lost successive games to Ohio State and St John’s in December I think at the Garden. I was there.

    North Carolina beat Duke at home. They lost that 47-40 game on Duke senior night in Cameron. I watched from a tv in a Garden box (my dad worked for Kidde, Inc., which had a box), as a really bad Knicks team beat a bad Nets team.

    Carolina then beat Duke in the ACC Tournament.

    In the NCAA next weekend, both ranked like 4 and 6, North Carolina lost to Penn (which went to Final 4) and Duke lost to a pre-Mullin St John’s yet again. In North Carolina. They called it Black Friday on Tobacco Road.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

    , @hhsiii
    @ScarletNumber

    And Duke held the ball on offense too. I’d forgotten that. 39, 40 minute mark, it’s just refusing to do anything with UNC in zone, tossing back and forth to Gminski.

    , @Ben tillman
    @ScarletNumber

    Thanks. I was thinking it was ‘79 after Duke had turned its program around with Spanarkel, Gminski, and Banks. I still remember the numbers all those guys wore. Still pre-Krzyzewski.

    Replies: @hhsiii

  107. Vertical jump= PEDs. Veins visible in abs mean they are using Growth Hormone. Maybe skillful fast guys who are 6’2” in their late teens when bone is malleable, decide they need to hit the GH to get a vital several extra inches in height and be offered a contract. Perhaps that quietly going on is why the height is falling: they are more naturally skillful. Pro sports are about skills plus PEDs now.

    • Agree: R.G. Camara
    • Replies: @R.G. Camara
    @Sean

    If the FBI/DEA ever really wanted to roll up huge illegal drug operations, they'd merely question every 18 year old high school kid playing in big-time national basketball/football programs or tournaments. Those kids have shadow agents who got them on the juice to get them recruited by top programs.

    As those kids are in high school and the agents have no legal way to stop them, the kids would quickly buckle and state who gave them the juice. The FBI/DEA could quickly climb the ladder and find out where those distributors came from and sack the whole dang thing---which would remove them from college and the pros as well, since its almost certain its all the same dealers and nail some of the most crooked college and pro executives/coaches as well.

    The fact that this hasn't happened and doesn't regularly happen is, uh, revealing.

    Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard

  108. @Sean
    Vertical jump= PEDs. Veins visible in abs mean they are using Growth Hormone. Maybe skillful fast guys who are 6'2'' in their late teens when bone is malleable, decide they need to hit the GH to get a vital several extra inches in height and be offered a contract. Perhaps that quietly going on is why the height is falling: they are more naturally skillful. Pro sports are about skills plus PEDs now.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara

    If the FBI/DEA ever really wanted to roll up huge illegal drug operations, they’d merely question every 18 year old high school kid playing in big-time national basketball/football programs or tournaments. Those kids have shadow agents who got them on the juice to get them recruited by top programs.

    As those kids are in high school and the agents have no legal way to stop them, the kids would quickly buckle and state who gave them the juice. The FBI/DEA could quickly climb the ladder and find out where those distributors came from and sack the whole dang thing—which would remove them from college and the pros as well, since its almost certain its all the same dealers and nail some of the most crooked college and pro executives/coaches as well.

    The fact that this hasn’t happened and doesn’t regularly happen is, uh, revealing.

    • Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard
    @R.G. Camara

    Steroid use is epic in the US.

    All those "totes natty," bodybuilders and fitness models ain't.

    Replies: @Sean

  109. @silviosilver

    In the future, every NBA player will be a 6′-6″ 215 pound shooting forward.
     
    In the future, the NBA will hopefully be broke.

    Replies: @Truth

    In the future, the NBA will hopefully be broke.

    Tomorrow morning, you will certainly be broke.

    Concern yourself with what’s important, Old Sport.

  110. @Anon
    I find it interesting how slowly basketball came to adopt what we think of as the modern game. Sure, the 3-pointer is a relatively recent addition, as is the shot clock, but I am of a mind that an unguarded or lightly guarded shot from 20+ feet has a higher EV than a guarded shot from anywhere on the floor. Before the introduction of the 3, however, such a tactic of playing for the open rather than the close shot was relatively rare, at least as I understand it.

    20 years into Major League Baseball, you had players realize an uppercut swing, which would increase strikeout rate and lower BABIP, might be useful because taking all 4 bases at once is much more efficient than taking them one at a time. The Best four hitters of all-time had high K rates relative to their eras - Ruth, Williams, Cobb and Bonds.

    How could basketball increase the premium on height? Make field goals worth 3, the 3 worth 4, and award 3 free throws on a foul? I don’t think this would be a good idea.

    The Sixers, my team, were talked about as the Hot New Thing in recent years, but former player Elton Brand took over as GM and loaded the roster with players who look like him, a 6’9” power forward, to predictably disappointing results.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @ScarletNumber, @Foreign Expert

    Raise the basket to 11 feet in the nba.

  111. @Sean c
    @Hypnotoad666

    That seems to be way off based on personal experience. I would say most high school basketball teams have at least one 6'6 player from an average pool of around 750 boys. This would not even count those not playing basketball and boys who haven't even finished growing. My high school at a snapshot freshman year had 5 6'6" or higher playing basketball. And one 6'7" future NFL player who didnt play basketball. That would be out of 600 boys. My high school did not recruit basketball players either.

    Replies: @Hypnotoad666

    That seems to be way off based on personal experience.

    Sean — You’re right. I messed up the calculation. Supposedly 99.73% of a normal distribution are within 3 SD of the mean and .27% are 3SD away from the mean. Half of those are on the right tail at +3SD, with the other half on the left tail at -3SD. So about .135% of males, or 1.35 per 1,000 would be above 3SD, or 6’6.

    I probably got it right this time because that works out to exactly what you observed: .135% x 750 = 1.01 guys would be expected to be over 6’6 at your school with 750 boys.

  112. @Ben tillman
    @Hhsiii

    Thats right. I recall the game the following week.

    I also recall Sloan as State’s coach, but USC in the ACC was just before my time.

    Replies: @hhsiii

    1968 ACC Tournament. Also before my time, or memory that is. And it was NC State over 6th ranked Duke. 12-10.

    1970 ACC Tournament State beat SC by a more robust 42-39.

    Ah, Dean did try it in 1966 ACC Tournament, losing to Duke 21-20. That Duke team went to Final 4.

    But I don’t think any of those games had a scoreless half.

    I think the back breaker that led to shot clock was a 40s scoring game between Worthy and Jordan led UNC versus Sampson’s Virginia in 1982. Of course Virginia keeps teams in the 40s now with a shot clock.

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    @hhsiii


    I think the back breaker that led to shot clock was a 40s scoring game between Worthy and Jordan led UNC versus Sampson’s Virginia in 1982. Of course Virginia keeps teams in the 40s now with a shot clock.
     
    Not only that, but it was the ACC final, which was nationally televised on NBC with Dr. Dick Enberg and Al McGuire on the call.

    The ACC was so appalled that they instituted a chippy 17'9" 3-point shot the following year. As a comparison, this was two feet inside the top of the key, and the current distance is 22'1¾". Sanity was restored, as the Jimmy Valvano-coached NC State Wolfpack defeated Virginia the following year 81-78 for the ACC title.

    The old joke that Dean Smith was the only one who could hold Michael Jordan under 20 points had a lot of validity to it.

    Replies: @Ben tillman, @Hhsiii

  113. anon[146] • Disclaimer says:
    @Abolish_public_education
    @BB753

    The blogger has noted the necessity of re-examining the rules of sports, every few years, in order to eject the anachronisms.

    A ten-foot basket was reasonable back when six foot-tallish players were the norm, Alcindor was a freak, etc.

    Today’s players — even the shorties — can set/grab a quarter on/off the top of the backboard.

    The basket needs to be raised to 16 feet.

    Replies: @anon

    No, they don’t. The data on standing vertical reach and jumping ability, collected on most players who enter the NBA, are publicly available. Do the math.

    The amount of nonsense in the comments on this topic is much higher than typical. Obviously, conservative white dudes don’t watch the NBA. I finally stopped doing so myself after they painted the name of a terrorist organization on the court and required the players to wear slogans promoting outright lies on their jerseys. Apparently, the no-white-males rule on national pregame and halftime shows, and its biggest star staging an anti-white hoax at his house wasn’t enough. Yes, I’m ashamed it took all that for me to quit, I do love basketball.

    • Replies: @BB753
    @anon

    So, what is your take? Don't change any rules?

    Replies: @1BigJohnson

    , @silviosilver
    @anon

    I loved basketball too. I quit watching about 15 years ago. I've tuned in a few times since then, but forget it, I don't even last five minutes. I can still watch - and occasionally do - classic games from 80s and 90s though.

  114. @ScarletNumber
    @Ben tillman

    February 24, 1979. You're welcome.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0bWwD8uSds

    Replies: @hhsiii, @hhsiii, @Ben tillman

    Rich Yonaker took the first Tar Heel shot. Air ball. And the Duke fans let him have it. With a proto air ball chant, which has evolved quite a bit since then.

    Duke began that year ranked number 1. Gminski, Spanarkel and Gene Banks. When Banks was recruited, the question was who was better, Banks out of Philly or Brooklyn’s own Albert King, who ended up at Maryland. Only a few made the case for Earvin Johnson.

    Duke beat the Heels in the early season Big 4, the successor to the old Dixie Classic.

    Duke lost successive games to Ohio State and St John’s in December I think at the Garden. I was there.

    North Carolina beat Duke at home. They lost that 47-40 game on Duke senior night in Cameron. I watched from a tv in a Garden box (my dad worked for Kidde, Inc., which had a box), as a really bad Knicks team beat a bad Nets team.

    Carolina then beat Duke in the ACC Tournament.

    In the NCAA next weekend, both ranked like 4 and 6, North Carolina lost to Penn (which went to Final 4) and Duke lost to a pre-Mullin St John’s yet again. In North Carolina. They called it Black Friday on Tobacco Road.

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    @hhsiii


    Duke lost successive games to Ohio State and St John’s in December I think at the Garden. I was there.
     
    Yes, Friday and Saturday, December 29 and 30. The fourth team was Rutgers, who made the NCAA, while Ohio State didn't.

    In the NCAA next weekend, both ranked like 4 and 6, North Carolina lost to Penn (which went to Final 4) and Duke lost to a pre-Mullin St John’s yet again. In North Carolina. They called it Black Friday on Tobacco Road.
     
    This was the first year the NCAA seeded the tournament, with UNC being 1 and Duke being 2 in the East. They wouldn't be put in the same region now, but they were still figuring it out then. Penn was the 9 and St. John's was the 10, so they each had to have an upset in the first round before achieving their upsets in the second round. Penn upset Iona, who was coached by Jim Valvano.

    I don't know why it was called Black Friday, as the first round games were on Friday, and the in-state upsets were on Sunday.

    a really bad Knicks team beat a bad Nets team
     
    New York 111, New Jersey 107. Earl the Pearl led the Knicks with 28 points, while Bernard King scored 4o in a losing effort. The Nets ended up making the playoffs, however.
  115. @ScarletNumber
    @Ben tillman

    February 24, 1979. You're welcome.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0bWwD8uSds

    Replies: @hhsiii, @hhsiii, @Ben tillman

    And Duke held the ball on offense too. I’d forgotten that. 39, 40 minute mark, it’s just refusing to do anything with UNC in zone, tossing back and forth to Gminski.

  116. anon[340] • Disclaimer says:
    @Polynikes
    @1BigJohnson

    Correct. See my other comment on Pitino and the press. But Pitino was a vocal proponent of the 3 saying essentially “ hey my guys only have to make 33% of their 3s to equal everyone else’s 50% fg shooting.”

    And his late UK teams shot a ton of 3s. Equal to some of today’s (or at least up to about 2018) top three point shooting teams when adjusted for length of game and pace.

    Replies: @anon

    Pitino ball worked when he had a bunch of extremely athletic blacks pressing less-talented college teams (i.e., those whose coaches did less illegal recruiting crap than Pitino). It didn’t work in the NBA or Europe (he coached in Greece recently). He was a total failure in Boston, even though his Celtics team had some of his former Kentucky stars. His famous “Larry Bird, Kevin McHale aren’t walking through that door … all the negativity in this town sucks” resignation speech is his lasting legacy in Boston.
    I was a Celtics fan these days and couldn’t wait to be rid of him after all the excitement during his coronation as the new Red Auerbach of the Boston Celtics. But Red (whom Pitino unceremoniously shoved aside) understood it was about talent, basketball IQ and team spirit, not just expending more effort on the court. The legendary Celtics teams of the 60s, 70s, and 80s were led by highly intelligent, team basketball-type of guys – Sharman, Cousy, Russell, Heinsohn, Havlicek, Cowens, Bird. Not coincidentally, the teams were very white, with some high-character black players like Russell, Jo Jo White, Sam and KC Jones and others.
    The NBA has tried its hardest over the years to help the Lakers reach the Celtics’ 17 championships to counter its legacy of white-dominated basketball. Finally it’s succeeded this summer in the “NBA bubble” with no fans. When the NBA’s spoiled brats were protesting the demise of yet another jogger by refusing to play, I was so hopeful the NBA would go away forever. Unfortunately, in the wake of NBA’s race-baiting and subsequent huge viewership losses, Silver announced they’d tone down the BLM crap for next season. We need to support the campaign to pay the WNBA “stars” the same salaries as the NBA stars, which would bankrupt the NBA, the sugar-daddy of the lesbian-tranny league.

  117. @Anon
    @Truth

    I dangled.

    I'd recommend Bryan Garner over Truss. His is more of a 1960s high school grammer book, no pretense of luring in numbskulls with humor or hipness, very hardcore and 550 pages long, plus he's the author of the successor to Fowler, endorsed by snooty David Foster Wallace.

    https://www.amazon.sg/Chicago-Guide-Grammar-Usage-Punctuation/dp/022618885X

    https://www.amazon.sg/Garners-Modern-English-Usage-Garner/dp/0190491485

    https://harpers.org/wp-content/uploads/HarpersMagazine-2001-04-0070913.pdf

    https://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/21/magazine/another-thing-to-sort-of-pin-on-david-foster-wallace.html

    https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/d-f-w-s-favorite-grammarian

    Replies: @Johnny Rico

    Yeah. You got pwned.

  118. @Reg Cæsar
    Right up Steve's alley fairway: SSA.gov's annual name list is out. One of the fast risers is Niklaus, jumping from #1080 into the top thousand at #972.

    https://www.ssa.gov/oact/babynames/popularity_increase.html


    Words are rising-- Onyx, Saint, Stone, Creed, Crew, Baker, Seven, Legacy (Subaru owners?), Reign, Bear, Legend, Talon...

    Harvey rose 34 places, which is surprising. Emmitt's 37 is not. (Bryant, though, is down a lot.)

    It's reassuring to see illiteracies such as Xzavier and Skylar sink, as well as slight but annoying misspellings like Tristen and Tristian. Doesn't anyone read Frankis epic romances anymore?

    Monroe is rising among girls. I guess parents are tiring of Taylor, Tyler, and Madison among 19th-century presidents.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @prosa123, @Corn

    Monroe is rising among girls. I guess parents are tiring of Taylor, Tyler, and Madison among 19th-century presidents.

    My cousin’s wife insisted on naming their son Harrison. Apparently ol’ Will and Benjamin have more fans than you think.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Corn

    Harrison isn't a Lincoln. He's a Ford.

  119. @hhsiii
    @Polynikes

    The issue with the press wasn’t too many games, I think. It failed when he was Knicks coach not in regular season so much but in the playoffs. NBA level players with sufficient prep can break the press.

    At least that’s what Al Bianchi said when he fired him in the 80s.

    Pitino is a pretty good d coach at college level. Pretty good motivator. Really good (crooked) recruiter, and spotting underrated recruits. Rozier and Harrell for example. Not sure why Big 4 schools didn’t get Harrell. Perhaps too vibrant, or wanted something.

    Replies: @Hhsiii, @ex-banker

    Pitino (or his assistants) deployed a powerful strategy in the recruitment of Harrell:

    In the report, Powell says Harrell had sex during the parties as a recruit and later as a Louisville player, and it all was paid for by McGee.

    https://www.chron.com/sports/rockets/article/Rockets-Montrezl-Harrell-mentioned-in-Louisville-6579655.php

    • Thanks: hhsiii
  120. Seems like the US in general is getting shorter…and plumper. Americans are leading the human de-evolving movement

  121. @anon
    @Abolish_public_education

    No, they don't. The data on standing vertical reach and jumping ability, collected on most players who enter the NBA, are publicly available. Do the math.

    The amount of nonsense in the comments on this topic is much higher than typical. Obviously, conservative white dudes don't watch the NBA. I finally stopped doing so myself after they painted the name of a terrorist organization on the court and required the players to wear slogans promoting outright lies on their jerseys. Apparently, the no-white-males rule on national pregame and halftime shows, and its biggest star staging an anti-white hoax at his house wasn't enough. Yes, I'm ashamed it took all that for me to quit, I do love basketball.

    Replies: @BB753, @silviosilver

    So, what is your take? Don’t change any rules?

    • Replies: @1BigJohnson
    @BB753

    >So, what is your take? Don’t change any rules?

    Switch back to the old, 25' arc (22' in the corners). Make fouls an automatic 1 point + the ball (i.e., no more free throws)

  122. @ScarletNumber
    @Ben tillman

    February 24, 1979. You're welcome.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0bWwD8uSds

    Replies: @hhsiii, @hhsiii, @Ben tillman

    Thanks. I was thinking it was ‘79 after Duke had turned its program around with Spanarkel, Gminski, and Banks. I still remember the numbers all those guys wore. Still pre-Krzyzewski.

    • Replies: @hhsiii
    @Ben tillman

    People forget Duke had success pre-Coach K. 3 Final 4s in 4 years in '60s under Bubas, then, after a fallow period (although they'd likely have made the NCAA Tournament a few times after that under the newer rules allowing more than one team per conference), a return to power status under Bill Foster. 1978 title game run, number 1 rankings at one point in 1978-79 and 1979-80.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

  123. @anon
    @Abolish_public_education

    No, they don't. The data on standing vertical reach and jumping ability, collected on most players who enter the NBA, are publicly available. Do the math.

    The amount of nonsense in the comments on this topic is much higher than typical. Obviously, conservative white dudes don't watch the NBA. I finally stopped doing so myself after they painted the name of a terrorist organization on the court and required the players to wear slogans promoting outright lies on their jerseys. Apparently, the no-white-males rule on national pregame and halftime shows, and its biggest star staging an anti-white hoax at his house wasn't enough. Yes, I'm ashamed it took all that for me to quit, I do love basketball.

    Replies: @BB753, @silviosilver

    I loved basketball too. I quit watching about 15 years ago. I’ve tuned in a few times since then, but forget it, I don’t even last five minutes. I can still watch – and occasionally do – classic games from 80s and 90s though.

  124. @Ben tillman
    @ScarletNumber

    Thanks. I was thinking it was ‘79 after Duke had turned its program around with Spanarkel, Gminski, and Banks. I still remember the numbers all those guys wore. Still pre-Krzyzewski.

    Replies: @hhsiii

    People forget Duke had success pre-Coach K. 3 Final 4s in 4 years in ’60s under Bubas, then, after a fallow period (although they’d likely have made the NCAA Tournament a few times after that under the newer rules allowing more than one team per conference), a return to power status under Bill Foster. 1978 title game run, number 1 rankings at one point in 1978-79 and 1979-80.

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    @hhsiii

    It's interesting how Bill Foster voluntarily left Duke for South Carolina, where in six seasons he never even qualified for the NCAA tournament. Ironically, in Foster's last season with USC Coach K took Duke to the Final Four.

    Replies: @Ben tillman, @hhsiii

  125. @R.G. Camara
    @Sean

    If the FBI/DEA ever really wanted to roll up huge illegal drug operations, they'd merely question every 18 year old high school kid playing in big-time national basketball/football programs or tournaments. Those kids have shadow agents who got them on the juice to get them recruited by top programs.

    As those kids are in high school and the agents have no legal way to stop them, the kids would quickly buckle and state who gave them the juice. The FBI/DEA could quickly climb the ladder and find out where those distributors came from and sack the whole dang thing---which would remove them from college and the pros as well, since its almost certain its all the same dealers and nail some of the most crooked college and pro executives/coaches as well.

    The fact that this hasn't happened and doesn't regularly happen is, uh, revealing.

    Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard

    Steroid use is epic in the US.

    All those “totes natty,” bodybuilders and fitness models ain’t.

    • Replies: @Sean
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    Yes, but steroids won't make you taller, I was talking about the use of Growth Hormone by athletes still in the bone growth phase of life. GH taken as a teen can substantially increase height. If an eighteen years' old aspiring NBA player has the power and skill coaches are looking for, yet scouts are holding back because he looks like he will top out at 6'2', ' but suddenly he grows four inches? Draw your own conclusions.

    With added loftiness available to order, a naturally talented but somewhat undersized player becomes the perfect blend of height and ability, and recruitment of relatively ungifted 7 footers becomes less necessary, so the average height drops . Vorsprung durch Technik.

    Replies: @Anonymous

  126. @hhsiii
    @Ben tillman

    1968 ACC Tournament. Also before my time, or memory that is. And it was NC State over 6th ranked Duke. 12-10.

    1970 ACC Tournament State beat SC by a more robust 42-39.

    Ah, Dean did try it in 1966 ACC Tournament, losing to Duke 21-20. That Duke team went to Final 4.

    But I don’t think any of those games had a scoreless half.

    I think the back breaker that led to shot clock was a 40s scoring game between Worthy and Jordan led UNC versus Sampson’s Virginia in 1982. Of course Virginia keeps teams in the 40s now with a shot clock.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

    I think the back breaker that led to shot clock was a 40s scoring game between Worthy and Jordan led UNC versus Sampson’s Virginia in 1982. Of course Virginia keeps teams in the 40s now with a shot clock.

    Not only that, but it was the ACC final, which was nationally televised on NBC with Dr. Dick Enberg and Al McGuire on the call.

    The ACC was so appalled that they instituted a chippy 17’9″ 3-point shot the following year. As a comparison, this was two feet inside the top of the key, and the current distance is 22’1¾”. Sanity was restored, as the Jimmy Valvano-coached NC State Wolfpack defeated Virginia the following year 81-78 for the ACC title.

    The old joke that Dean Smith was the only one who could hold Michael Jordan under 20 points had a lot of validity to it.

    • Replies: @Ben tillman
    @ScarletNumber

    It did. Partly because of that and partly because of the four corners, I continue to think of Phil Ford as the Tar Heels alltime MVP.

    , @Hhsiii
    @ScarletNumber

    Billy Cunningham averaged something like 26 ppg for Dean but they only went 16-11. Bobby Lewis 27. He toned it down when they hit Larry Miller and went to 3 straight Final 4s.

    Dean’s teams were big time scorers when the rules and style allowed. He wanted the 3, no zone and shot clock. The arc of the game changed. He had really high scoring teams in early 70s and late 80s to 90s. Early 80s was a low scoring era, plus Jordan played with Worthy and Perkins.buu yeah, he should have averaged more once Worthy left.

    Replies: @hhsiii

  127. @hhsiii
    @Ben tillman

    People forget Duke had success pre-Coach K. 3 Final 4s in 4 years in '60s under Bubas, then, after a fallow period (although they'd likely have made the NCAA Tournament a few times after that under the newer rules allowing more than one team per conference), a return to power status under Bill Foster. 1978 title game run, number 1 rankings at one point in 1978-79 and 1979-80.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

    It’s interesting how Bill Foster voluntarily left Duke for South Carolina, where in six seasons he never even qualified for the NCAA tournament. Ironically, in Foster’s last season with USC Coach K took Duke to the Final Four.

    • Replies: @Ben tillman
    @ScarletNumber

    Duke was pretty bad in the mid-‘70s, while USC still had a bit of the legacy of Roche and Kevin Joyce going on. I guess. That Kevin Joyce shooting motion was as distinctive as George McGinnis’s. Kids used to love to chuck it like Kevin Joyce, always tongue-in-cheek.

    Foster’s leaving for USC was a puzzling yet hilarious move, as the Gamecocks’ archrival already has a head basketball coach named Bill Foster.

    Replies: @hhsiii

    , @hhsiii
    @ScarletNumber

    Jim Valvano counts as a member of the Bill E. Foster coaching tree. He coached him at Rutgers. Valvano was a pretty good player. So wasBoeheim.

  128. @BB753
    @anon

    So, what is your take? Don't change any rules?

    Replies: @1BigJohnson

    >So, what is your take? Don’t change any rules?

    Switch back to the old, 25′ arc (22′ in the corners). Make fouls an automatic 1 point + the ball (i.e., no more free throws)

    • Agree: BB753
  129. @ScarletNumber
    @hhsiii


    I think the back breaker that led to shot clock was a 40s scoring game between Worthy and Jordan led UNC versus Sampson’s Virginia in 1982. Of course Virginia keeps teams in the 40s now with a shot clock.
     
    Not only that, but it was the ACC final, which was nationally televised on NBC with Dr. Dick Enberg and Al McGuire on the call.

    The ACC was so appalled that they instituted a chippy 17'9" 3-point shot the following year. As a comparison, this was two feet inside the top of the key, and the current distance is 22'1¾". Sanity was restored, as the Jimmy Valvano-coached NC State Wolfpack defeated Virginia the following year 81-78 for the ACC title.

    The old joke that Dean Smith was the only one who could hold Michael Jordan under 20 points had a lot of validity to it.

    Replies: @Ben tillman, @Hhsiii

    It did. Partly because of that and partly because of the four corners, I continue to think of Phil Ford as the Tar Heels alltime MVP.

  130. @ScarletNumber
    @hhsiii

    It's interesting how Bill Foster voluntarily left Duke for South Carolina, where in six seasons he never even qualified for the NCAA tournament. Ironically, in Foster's last season with USC Coach K took Duke to the Final Four.

    Replies: @Ben tillman, @hhsiii

    Duke was pretty bad in the mid-‘70s, while USC still had a bit of the legacy of Roche and Kevin Joyce going on. I guess. That Kevin Joyce shooting motion was as distinctive as George McGinnis’s. Kids used to love to chuck it like Kevin Joyce, always tongue-in-cheek.

    Foster’s leaving for USC was a puzzling yet hilarious move, as the Gamecocks’ archrival already has a head basketball coach named Bill Foster.

    • Replies: @hhsiii
    @Ben tillman

    Yeah Clemson had Bill C. Foster.

  131. @Peterike
    Excessive professionalization has ruined every sport under the sun.

    Replies: @Muggles

    Excessive professionalization has ruined every sport under the sun.

    Odd remark. What is “excessive professionalization”?

    When people play a sport full time, as a professional, and don’t work at other occupations, this is what has always been done by the best players in most sports.

    How or when did it become “excessive”? Didn’t go back to the farm in the off season?

    People know a lot more about the human body and performance in almost all sports. Pay is much higher now too. Very few can compete at the highest levels part time. Even Olympic athletes are often full time at doing their sport. They just get paid in some roundabout way. The Olympic basketball teams are in the major nations all pros.

    Pre 1960, say, when sports didn’t pay enough to live on year around, you had some semi pros who did other work. Some still do in their off seasons. Some sports pay pros so much they never have to develop any other skills.

    People start training earlier, with much better coaching from day one. There are still occasional “walk-ons” in some sports, but most are trained in youth leagues or collegiate teams or sports camps.

    It is different now, players are better (and few are able to stay juiced up on steroids like before). But nearly every profession, sports or not, has better participants, smarter, better trained, etc.

    Unless you deliberately handicap players, the “best” are only going to get better over time, absent rules changes. If you don’t define “excessive superiority” for us, you aren’t making a good point.

    • Replies: @prosa123
    @Muggles

    Rich white parents pushing their kids into niche sports in the hope of getting them into top universities:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/11/squash-lacrosse-niche-sports-ivy-league-admissions/616474/

    , @prosa123
    @Muggles

    Rich white parents pushing their kids into niche sports in the hope of getting them into top universities:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/11/squash-lacrosse-niche-sports-ivy-league-admissions/616474/

  132. @Corn
    @Reg Cæsar


    Monroe is rising among girls. I guess parents are tiring of Taylor, Tyler, and Madison among 19th-century presidents.
     
    My cousin’s wife insisted on naming their son Harrison. Apparently ol’ Will and Benjamin have more fans than you think.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Harrison isn’t a Lincoln. He’s a Ford.

    • LOL: Corn
  133. @R.G. Camara
    The NBA finally got the memo that thug ball/streetball doesn't sell, and starting calling the fouls on everybody (not just superstars) they should've been calling for decades. Now, more refined players (i.e. those who can actually shoot and dribble and steal without fouling) can actually play the sport. So big hulking rougher guys get edged out by the smaller dudes (relatively speaking) who can shoot.

    Too bad at the same time they missed the memo on how patriotism sells and cheering on criminals is actually a turn off.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

    RG, the NBA is a weathervane. A couple of years ago the league wanted the players to wear tee shirts with short sleeves as a way to hide all the tattoos. That didn’t go over with the players. I watch March Madness for my yearly b-ball fix. Best thing about MM is that smaller colleges, often Catholic colleges, have a shot at the national title, something that doesn’t happen in football or most other college sports.

  134. @Anon7
    @Hypnotoad666

    That's right! You could take all short players, and that kind of league actually exists.

    I once played in a 5'9" and under league, after one of my housemates' boyfriends in law school begged me to. In truth, I'm a bit taller, a bit over 5'10", so I had certain moral qualms.

    It turned out to be okay, since every team had one freakishly large player that towered over the little guys. On our team, that was me.

    I'm telling you, it was a rush.

    You wouldn't believe how many amazingly good ballplayers there are in the shorter range. One of the guys on our team was whippet thin and about 5'7" - astonishingly quick, he scored unstoppable layups, he was all-state in New York in high school.

    Another team had a guy about 5'5" who dribbled and moved at twice normal speed, all the time. Another had a 5'8" guy who just couldn't miss at like 35 feet (pre-3 point shot, though).

    I don't know if you could sell a five-nine and under league to the public, but it was great fun.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

    A7, glad you had fun in your league, but in truth, you and your team mates could not play with the big boys. Years ago WNY had Calvin Murphy at Niagara U and the Ernie Digregorio with the Buffalo Braves. Rare is the short man, no matter how quick, who plays D-I B-Ball. Stay safe.

    • Replies: @Anon7
    @Buffalo Joe

    I have played with guys who played D1 college ball, including a guy who played varsity in my high school, who was 6'11".

    I'm telling you, trying to play against a guy like that is like trying to shoot against some guy blocking your shots with a broom. Jesus.

    And you're right, a 5'10" guy has no business mixing it up with a 6'2" athlete who plays D1 ball. You'll wind up on your ass somewhere off the court, which I have seen happen.

  135. @YetAnotherAnon
    OT

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/oct/20/caren-act-san-francisco-racist-911-calls


    Fed up with white people calling 911 about people of color selling water bottles, barbecuing or otherwise going about their lives, San Francisco leaders are set to approve hate crime legislation giving the targets of those calls the ability to sue the caller.

    The Board of Supervisors will vote Tuesday on the Caution Against Racial and Exploitative Non-Emergencies Act, also known as the Caren legislation. It’s a nod to a popular meme using the name “Karen” to describe an entitled white woman whose actions stem from her privilege, such as using police to target people of color.

    All 11 supervisors have signed on to the legislation, guaranteeing it will pass, despite some criticism that the name is sexist and divisive. It comes amid a national reckoning on race driven by the police killings of Black Americans, as well as instances where white people called for officers to investigate people of color.

    In May, Amy Cooper, a white woman...
     

    Wonder how many white people this'll kill?


    Meanwhile in Bongland ...

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/20/teaching-white-privilege-is-a-fact-breaks-the-law-minister-says

    Also in the UK, Boris is trying to lock down Manchester, and the region's Labour pols aren't having it. Interesting times.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

    YetAnother, this is why when you read SF Gate the commenters call them the Board of Stupidvisors.

  136. @Muggles
    @Peterike


    Excessive professionalization has ruined every sport under the sun.
     
    Odd remark. What is "excessive professionalization"?

    When people play a sport full time, as a professional, and don't work at other occupations, this is what has always been done by the best players in most sports.

    How or when did it become "excessive"? Didn't go back to the farm in the off season?

    People know a lot more about the human body and performance in almost all sports. Pay is much higher now too. Very few can compete at the highest levels part time. Even Olympic athletes are often full time at doing their sport. They just get paid in some roundabout way. The Olympic basketball teams are in the major nations all pros.

    Pre 1960, say, when sports didn't pay enough to live on year around, you had some semi pros who did other work. Some still do in their off seasons. Some sports pay pros so much they never have to develop any other skills.

    People start training earlier, with much better coaching from day one. There are still occasional "walk-ons" in some sports, but most are trained in youth leagues or collegiate teams or sports camps.

    It is different now, players are better (and few are able to stay juiced up on steroids like before). But nearly every profession, sports or not, has better participants, smarter, better trained, etc.

    Unless you deliberately handicap players, the "best" are only going to get better over time, absent rules changes. If you don't define "excessive superiority" for us, you aren't making a good point.

    Replies: @prosa123, @prosa123

    Rich white parents pushing their kids into niche sports in the hope of getting them into top universities:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/11/squash-lacrosse-niche-sports-ivy-league-admissions/616474/

  137. @Muggles
    @Peterike


    Excessive professionalization has ruined every sport under the sun.
     
    Odd remark. What is "excessive professionalization"?

    When people play a sport full time, as a professional, and don't work at other occupations, this is what has always been done by the best players in most sports.

    How or when did it become "excessive"? Didn't go back to the farm in the off season?

    People know a lot more about the human body and performance in almost all sports. Pay is much higher now too. Very few can compete at the highest levels part time. Even Olympic athletes are often full time at doing their sport. They just get paid in some roundabout way. The Olympic basketball teams are in the major nations all pros.

    Pre 1960, say, when sports didn't pay enough to live on year around, you had some semi pros who did other work. Some still do in their off seasons. Some sports pay pros so much they never have to develop any other skills.

    People start training earlier, with much better coaching from day one. There are still occasional "walk-ons" in some sports, but most are trained in youth leagues or collegiate teams or sports camps.

    It is different now, players are better (and few are able to stay juiced up on steroids like before). But nearly every profession, sports or not, has better participants, smarter, better trained, etc.

    Unless you deliberately handicap players, the "best" are only going to get better over time, absent rules changes. If you don't define "excessive superiority" for us, you aren't making a good point.

    Replies: @prosa123, @prosa123

    Rich white parents pushing their kids into niche sports in the hope of getting them into top universities:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/11/squash-lacrosse-niche-sports-ivy-league-admissions/616474/

  138. Let me know when they start getting whiter. And less inky. Then maybe I’ll watch a game again.

    • Replies: @Truth
    @Ann T. Zemitik

    I hear their are really great games, everyday between 12:00 and 1:00 at your local Jewish Community Center. The word is that Dr. Epperman, the Podiatrist has a wicked crossover dribble..

  139. @ScarletNumber
    @hhsiii


    I think the back breaker that led to shot clock was a 40s scoring game between Worthy and Jordan led UNC versus Sampson’s Virginia in 1982. Of course Virginia keeps teams in the 40s now with a shot clock.
     
    Not only that, but it was the ACC final, which was nationally televised on NBC with Dr. Dick Enberg and Al McGuire on the call.

    The ACC was so appalled that they instituted a chippy 17'9" 3-point shot the following year. As a comparison, this was two feet inside the top of the key, and the current distance is 22'1¾". Sanity was restored, as the Jimmy Valvano-coached NC State Wolfpack defeated Virginia the following year 81-78 for the ACC title.

    The old joke that Dean Smith was the only one who could hold Michael Jordan under 20 points had a lot of validity to it.

    Replies: @Ben tillman, @Hhsiii

    Billy Cunningham averaged something like 26 ppg for Dean but they only went 16-11. Bobby Lewis 27. He toned it down when they hit Larry Miller and went to 3 straight Final 4s.

    Dean’s teams were big time scorers when the rules and style allowed. He wanted the 3, no zone and shot clock. The arc of the game changed. He had really high scoring teams in early 70s and late 80s to 90s. Early 80s was a low scoring era, plus Jordan played with Worthy and Perkins.buu yeah, he should have averaged more once Worthy left.

    • Replies: @hhsiii
    @Hhsiii

    ‘69, ‘70 and ‘72 UNC averaged 89 ppg roughly. Pre 3 and shot clock.

    But the bookend is David Thompson and NC State broke the UCLA reign and K started the dynasty. Dean had his moments but lots of Final 4s, 2 titles. Full disclosure. I went to UNC and Dean’s basketball camp.

    Replies: @Ben tillman

  140. @Ben tillman
    @ScarletNumber

    Duke was pretty bad in the mid-‘70s, while USC still had a bit of the legacy of Roche and Kevin Joyce going on. I guess. That Kevin Joyce shooting motion was as distinctive as George McGinnis’s. Kids used to love to chuck it like Kevin Joyce, always tongue-in-cheek.

    Foster’s leaving for USC was a puzzling yet hilarious move, as the Gamecocks’ archrival already has a head basketball coach named Bill Foster.

    Replies: @hhsiii

    Yeah Clemson had Bill C. Foster.

  141. @Hhsiii
    @ScarletNumber

    Billy Cunningham averaged something like 26 ppg for Dean but they only went 16-11. Bobby Lewis 27. He toned it down when they hit Larry Miller and went to 3 straight Final 4s.

    Dean’s teams were big time scorers when the rules and style allowed. He wanted the 3, no zone and shot clock. The arc of the game changed. He had really high scoring teams in early 70s and late 80s to 90s. Early 80s was a low scoring era, plus Jordan played with Worthy and Perkins.buu yeah, he should have averaged more once Worthy left.

    Replies: @hhsiii

    ‘69, ‘70 and ‘72 UNC averaged 89 ppg roughly. Pre 3 and shot clock.

    But the bookend is David Thompson and NC State broke the UCLA reign and K started the dynasty. Dean had his moments but lots of Final 4s, 2 titles. Full disclosure. I went to UNC and Dean’s basketball camp.

    • Replies: @Ben tillman
    @hhsiii

    I went to Tates Locke’s basketball camp. I’m still waiting to see that palming call on Skip Wise in Chapel Hill in ‘75.

    Replies: @Hhsiii

  142. @jon
    @peterike


    The rookie minimum salary is $838,464, while a veteran with 10 or more years of experience can make no less than $2,393,887.
     
    That's nuts. How does that compare to other leagues?

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

    jon, my wife informed me that Judy Sheindlin of TV’s “The People’s Court” makes $47 MILLION per year. Compare that to real jurists.

    • Replies: @Peterike
    @Buffalo Joe

    “ jon, my wife informed me that Judy Sheindlin of TV’s “The People’s Court” makes $47 MILLION per year. Compare that to real jurists.”

    True, but many real jurists have the job satisfaction that can only come from ruining the nation. It’s better than the smell of napalm in the morning.

    , @ScarletNumber
    @Buffalo Joe

    While there is a People's Court, Sheindlin's show is called Judge Judy. She makes that much because she owns the show.

  143. @peterike
    @unit472


    I imagine NBA salaries will be shrinking along with the height of its players due to their turning off at least half of the public with their infantile political tantrums.
     
    Possibly, but that means nothing to the current players who have already made their millions. And blacks aren't all that good when it comes to thinking about the future. So expect no change in mentality.

    Current high school basketball standouts might have a complaint to make in the future. But hell, even if they cut the salaries in half, they'd still be making way more than they should. The insanity of it all is pretty insane.

    For the 2018-19 season, the average NBA salary is $6,388,007, per Basketball-Reference. Like most pro sports leagues, the NBA features a wide range of salaries.

    The minimum NBA salary (i.e. the least amount of money a player can be paid) ranges from $838,464 to $2,393,887, per Hoops Hype. The minimum amount of money a player can make depends on his experience. The rookie minimum salary is $838,464, while a veteran with 10 or more years of experience can make no less than $2,393,887.

    Replies: @jon, @Kratoklastes

    It’s interesting that NBA sportsballers go broke slightly less often than NFL sportsballers.

    • By the time they have been retired for two years, 78% of former NFL players have gone bankrupt or are under financial stress because of joblessness or divorce.

    • Within five years of retirement, an estimated 60% of former NBA players are broke.. – Sportsball Illustrated (2009)

    A lot of this has to do with them never earning the amounts reported.

    Like their reported playing height (measured in shoes that add a good inch and a half), their reported salaries are highly conditional on a bunch of contractual terms that often fail to materialise – the ‘headline number’ might be 7 figures, but it’s conditional on hitting playing stats that are rarely achieved.

    This is widespread in pretty much everything: actor salaries; professional sports contracts; contracts for recording artists and writers.

    A few years ago I knew a couple of young guys who made the cut as professional AFL players – guys in the Australian Football League, playing Australian Rules football. AFL is pretty gruelling: high impact; long periods of time at threshold HR.

    To actually get paid the $200k ‘base‘ number on their contracts, these kids had to play every game including finals (so the team had to make finals), and play at near-elite levels in their early career (nobody does that: it takes at least 3 years of conditioning to get to the physical level required – a 3 year player is significantly harder than a rookie).

    To get the ‘headline‘ number (the number reported in the media – ‘X million over 5 years‘), they also had to be no lower than 10th in the club’s “Best & Fairest” (MVP); the team had to make at least semi-finals; and they had to poll votes in the league’s Best & Fairest (which is to say that in at least one game, they had to be among the top 3 players on the field – as scored by the umpires). These criteria had to be achieved every year.

    If they didn’t fulfil the terms required to make ‘base’, they earned a bit less than $5k a game in playing fees.

    Sounds like a lot of money for a 19 year old, but once you take out tax and management fees, these kids are running their guts out (5km/game on average) and colliding at speed with much harder bodies… for maybe $50k a year for the first couple of years – if the stars align.

    Then consider that less than a third of players make it to 50 games (which is 2 full years, plus half a dozen games); the median career length is 19 games, and 40% of careers are less than 10 games.

    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist
    @Kratoklastes

    Thanks for this -- it confirms my impression that Aussie rules is one hell of a game.

  144. @SunBakedSuburb
    @Polynikes

    "golf"

    Golf, like bowling, is not a sport.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @Kratoklastes

    Golf, like bowling, is not a sport.

    I would put baseball outside the ‘sport’ category, too. It’s a very very stop-start game.

    Some people want a thing to be called a sport solely because people pay to watch it.

    Games can have skilled participants; the thing that qualifies something as a sport (to my mind) is the requirement for some non-trivial test of physical fitness. So in my taxonomy car racing is a sport, because driving a race-car is physically gruelling.

    There is no such component in baseball, golf, archery, target shooting, snooker and the like. (Mix target shooting with cross-country skiing… that‘s a sport).

    The ball is in actual play for about 18 minutes of the average game of baseball.

    Of that 18 minutes, less than 6 minutes is time during which the ball is in the field and runners are advancing, and the other 12 minutes is unhit pitches, foul balls and pickoffs. The rest of the time is spent scratching themselves.

    That’s according to a Steve Moyer article from 2013 in the WSJ; Politifact did a comprehensive breakdown of the Moyer data at this 2018 piece.

    Cricket is my edge case (i.e., there’s a 50% chance that it’s an actual sport), and it requires much more fitness than baseball.

    In cricket the batsman remains at-bat until dismissed, which might take a hundred or more pitches (‘deliveries’). During this time a batsman will run multiple 22-yard sprints and shuttle-runs. Dehydration is common during a long (batter’s) innings.

    The fielding side is often in the field for several hours at a stretch: they stay out there either until 10 batsmen are dismissed, or a certain number of overs – usually 50 – is completed. 50 overs is equal to a minimum of 300 pitches. (In contrast, a fielding innings in baseball generally takes less than 20 pitches, and then everyone repairs to the dugout and sits on their arses).

  145. Can’t they just lower the baskets?

  146. @Buffalo Joe
    @jon

    jon, my wife informed me that Judy Sheindlin of TV's "The People's Court" makes $47 MILLION per year. Compare that to real jurists.

    Replies: @Peterike, @ScarletNumber

    “ jon, my wife informed me that Judy Sheindlin of TV’s “The People’s Court” makes $47 MILLION per year. Compare that to real jurists.”

    True, but many real jurists have the job satisfaction that can only come from ruining the nation. It’s better than the smell of napalm in the morning.

  147. @hhsiii
    @Hhsiii

    ‘69, ‘70 and ‘72 UNC averaged 89 ppg roughly. Pre 3 and shot clock.

    But the bookend is David Thompson and NC State broke the UCLA reign and K started the dynasty. Dean had his moments but lots of Final 4s, 2 titles. Full disclosure. I went to UNC and Dean’s basketball camp.

    Replies: @Ben tillman

    I went to Tates Locke’s basketball camp. I’m still waiting to see that palming call on Skip Wise in Chapel Hill in ‘75.

    • Replies: @Hhsiii
    @Ben tillman

    Two Bill Fosters and 2 Skips. Skip Brown was great. I think he became a Wachovia exec.

    Can’t believe we blew the Chapel Hill streak this year.

  148. @Buffalo Joe
    @jon

    jon, my wife informed me that Judy Sheindlin of TV's "The People's Court" makes $47 MILLION per year. Compare that to real jurists.

    Replies: @Peterike, @ScarletNumber

    While there is a People’s Court, Sheindlin’s show is called Judge Judy. She makes that much because she owns the show.

  149. @The Wild Geese Howard
    @R.G. Camara

    Steroid use is epic in the US.

    All those "totes natty," bodybuilders and fitness models ain't.

    Replies: @Sean

    Yes, but steroids won’t make you taller, I was talking about the use of Growth Hormone by athletes still in the bone growth phase of life. GH taken as a teen can substantially increase height. If an eighteen years’ old aspiring NBA player has the power and skill coaches are looking for, yet scouts are holding back because he looks like he will top out at 6’2′, ‘ but suddenly he grows four inches? Draw your own conclusions.

    With added loftiness available to order, a naturally talented but somewhat undersized player becomes the perfect blend of height and ability, and recruitment of relatively ungifted 7 footers becomes less necessary, so the average height drops . Vorsprung durch Technik.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Sean

    Yes, but steroids won’t make you taller, I was talking about the use of Growth Hormone by athletes still in the bone growth phase of life. GH taken as a teen can substantially increase height. If an eighteen years’ old aspiring NBA player has the power and skill coaches are looking for, yet scouts are holding back because he looks like he will top out at 6’2′, ‘ but suddenly he grows four inches? Draw your own conclusions.

    That is basically what Lionel Messi did. Started getting injected with GH at age 8. He ended up around 5' 6". Without the GH he would've been in the low 5 ft. range, perhaps even shorter than 5 ft. tall, and at that size almost no amount of skill and talent would've been able to compensate.

    Replies: @Sean

  150. @Buffalo Joe
    @Anon7

    A7, glad you had fun in your league, but in truth, you and your team mates could not play with the big boys. Years ago WNY had Calvin Murphy at Niagara U and the Ernie Digregorio with the Buffalo Braves. Rare is the short man, no matter how quick, who plays D-I B-Ball. Stay safe.

    Replies: @Anon7

    I have played with guys who played D1 college ball, including a guy who played varsity in my high school, who was 6’11”.

    I’m telling you, trying to play against a guy like that is like trying to shoot against some guy blocking your shots with a broom. Jesus.

    And you’re right, a 5’10” guy has no business mixing it up with a 6’2″ athlete who plays D1 ball. You’ll wind up on your ass somewhere off the court, which I have seen happen.

  151. @Anon
    Dumb black guys with tattoos running around ... not my wheelhouse.

    Replies: @Truth, @Bard of Bumperstickers

    They were already nasty and brutish, and now this. Are we to be spared nothing?

  152. Anonymous[437] • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    Yes, but steroids won't make you taller, I was talking about the use of Growth Hormone by athletes still in the bone growth phase of life. GH taken as a teen can substantially increase height. If an eighteen years' old aspiring NBA player has the power and skill coaches are looking for, yet scouts are holding back because he looks like he will top out at 6'2', ' but suddenly he grows four inches? Draw your own conclusions.

    With added loftiness available to order, a naturally talented but somewhat undersized player becomes the perfect blend of height and ability, and recruitment of relatively ungifted 7 footers becomes less necessary, so the average height drops . Vorsprung durch Technik.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    Yes, but steroids won’t make you taller, I was talking about the use of Growth Hormone by athletes still in the bone growth phase of life. GH taken as a teen can substantially increase height. If an eighteen years’ old aspiring NBA player has the power and skill coaches are looking for, yet scouts are holding back because he looks like he will top out at 6’2′, ‘ but suddenly he grows four inches? Draw your own conclusions.

    That is basically what Lionel Messi did. Started getting injected with GH at age 8. He ended up around 5′ 6″. Without the GH he would’ve been in the low 5 ft. range, perhaps even shorter than 5 ft. tall, and at that size almost no amount of skill and talent would’ve been able to compensate.

    • Replies: @Sean
    @Anonymous

    I don't think so, Messi had a legit short stature medical problem from ten years old, because five foot is a tragic height for a man to end up at , and treatment would have been given to him whether he planned to play sports or not.


    https://www.espn.co.uk/nba/story/_/id/18105767/the-nba-search-inches-where-come-next

    Back in the fall of 2008, Davis was a pretty good 6-foot-2 sophomore guard on a pretty bad Perspectives Charter School team in Chicago. He already towered over his mom, and was eye-to-eye with his dad, so Davis figured he was done growing. Cleveland State was the only college giving him a look.

    By the following spring he was 6-8, and, as his high school coach put it, "He could still do everything -- pass, shoot, dribble -- he did before. He was just a lot taller." Anthony Sr. bought his son an extralong bed to accommodate his size-14 feet, which had been hanging off the end, while Junior swapped out Allen Iverson as his role model in favor of the Kevins, Durant and Garnett. After his growth spurt, he played one-half of one game in a summer tournament in Virginia and returned home to more scholarship offers than he could read. Two more inches later, he was the top pick in the NBA draft.
     
    No mention of GH in Davis's case, but it is brought up later in the article. I'll draw my own conclusions.

    Judging by his abs, Messi is still taking growth hormone, but then even rappers are taking ii now for those all important sagging pants zero lower abdominal adiposity photo shoots (and we know prison blacks is where sag came from). Of course, all top pro athletes are currently taking GH stacked with steroids. Steroids affect your nerve transmission: make you faster and more skillful.

    https://youtu.be/Zt8aq-TOk8I?list=PLRN8q74qUyEatFcf96v8GrByoTUB8W2Em&t=252

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Anonymous

  153. @Kratoklastes
    @peterike

    It's interesting that NBA sportsballers go broke slightly less often than NFL sportsballers.

    • By the time they have been retired for two years, 78% of former NFL players have gone bankrupt or are under financial stress because of joblessness or divorce.

    • Within five years of retirement, an estimated 60% of former NBA players are broke.. - Sportsball Illustrated (2009)
     

    A lot of this has to do with them never earning the amounts reported.

    Like their reported playing height (measured in shoes that add a good inch and a half), their reported salaries are highly conditional on a bunch of contractual terms that often fail to materialise - the 'headline number' might be 7 figures, but it's conditional on hitting playing stats that are rarely achieved.

    This is widespread in pretty much everything: actor salaries; professional sports contracts; contracts for recording artists and writers.

    A few years ago I knew a couple of young guys who made the cut as professional AFL players - guys in the Australian Football League, playing Australian Rules football. AFL is pretty gruelling: high impact; long periods of time at threshold HR.

    To actually get paid the $200k 'base' number on their contracts, these kids had to play every game including finals (so the team had to make finals), and play at near-elite levels in their early career (nobody does that: it takes at least 3 years of conditioning to get to the physical level required - a 3 year player is significantly harder than a rookie).

    To get the 'headline' number (the number reported in the media - 'X million over 5 years'), they also had to be no lower than 10th in the club's "Best & Fairest" (MVP); the team had to make at least semi-finals; and they had to poll votes in the league's Best & Fairest (which is to say that in at least one game, they had to be among the top 3 players on the field - as scored by the umpires). These criteria had to be achieved every year.

    If they didn't fulfil the terms required to make 'base', they earned a bit less than $5k a game in playing fees.

    Sounds like a lot of money for a 19 year old, but once you take out tax and management fees, these kids are running their guts out (5km/game on average) and colliding at speed with much harder bodies... for maybe $50k a year for the first couple of years - if the stars align.

    Then consider that less than a third of players make it to 50 games (which is 2 full years, plus half a dozen games); the median career length is 19 games, and 40% of careers are less than 10 games.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist

    Thanks for this — it confirms my impression that Aussie rules is one hell of a game.

  154. @Brutusale
    @ScarletNumber

    It assuredly is in Boston. In the 60s when the Celtics were winning the NBA championship every year, they drew a smaller crowd at the old Boston Garden than the mediocre (until the arrival of Bobby Orr) Bruins. But hey, Boston is rayciss.

    Pro tip for the single guys: when in a northern city like Boston, go to a hockey game. Many more women, in these parts called Puck Bunnies, than at other pro venues.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber, @Truth, @Buffalo Joe, @Rex Little

    the mediocre (until the arrival of Bobby Orr) Bruins.

    I grew up in the Boston area in the pre-Orr years, and the Bruins weren’t mediocre–they were bad. They missed the playoffs 7 straight years before Orr came along, and those were the days when two-thirds of the teams in the NHL were in the playoffs. The only question those years was whether the Bruins or the Rangers would finish in the cellar.

  155. @Anonymous
    @Sean

    Yes, but steroids won’t make you taller, I was talking about the use of Growth Hormone by athletes still in the bone growth phase of life. GH taken as a teen can substantially increase height. If an eighteen years’ old aspiring NBA player has the power and skill coaches are looking for, yet scouts are holding back because he looks like he will top out at 6’2′, ‘ but suddenly he grows four inches? Draw your own conclusions.

    That is basically what Lionel Messi did. Started getting injected with GH at age 8. He ended up around 5' 6". Without the GH he would've been in the low 5 ft. range, perhaps even shorter than 5 ft. tall, and at that size almost no amount of skill and talent would've been able to compensate.

    Replies: @Sean

    I don’t think so, Messi had a legit short stature medical problem from ten years old, because five foot is a tragic height for a man to end up at , and treatment would have been given to him whether he planned to play sports or not.

    https://www.espn.co.uk/nba/story/_/id/18105767/the-nba-search-inches-where-come-next

    Back in the fall of 2008, Davis was a pretty good 6-foot-2 sophomore guard on a pretty bad Perspectives Charter School team in Chicago. He already towered over his mom, and was eye-to-eye with his dad, so Davis figured he was done growing. Cleveland State was the only college giving him a look.

    By the following spring he was 6-8, and, as his high school coach put it, “He could still do everything — pass, shoot, dribble — he did before. He was just a lot taller.” Anthony Sr. bought his son an extralong bed to accommodate his size-14 feet, which had been hanging off the end, while Junior swapped out Allen Iverson as his role model in favor of the Kevins, Durant and Garnett. After his growth spurt, he played one-half of one game in a summer tournament in Virginia and returned home to more scholarship offers than he could read. Two more inches later, he was the top pick in the NBA draft.

    No mention of GH in Davis’s case, but it is brought up later in the article. I’ll draw my own conclusions.

    Judging by his abs, Messi is still taking growth hormone, but then even rappers are taking ii now for those all important sagging pants zero lower abdominal adiposity photo shoots (and we know prison blacks is where sag came from). Of course, all top pro athletes are currently taking GH stacked with steroids. Steroids affect your nerve transmission: make you faster and more skillful.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Sean

    Lionel Messi is just about the only athlete we know about taking human growth hormone.

    PED use is a fascinating subject that we know little about in public. I only discovered a few years ago that the first team to use steroids heavily was the 1958 LSU national championship team.

    , @Anonymous
    @Sean


    I don’t think so, Messi had a legit short stature medical problem from ten years old, because five foot is a tragic height for a man to end up at , and treatment would have been given to him whether he planned to play sports or not.
     
    Pro soccer players begin serious play and training at a very young age. Pro leagues and club teams have farm systems and pipelines that get kids very young. Messi was quite good and serious about soccer from a young age.

    I'm roughly Messi's age, and some of the short guys growing up in school ended up being in the low 5 feet range. Growing up middle class in the US in the 90s, seeking growth hormone treatment for short sons was not something parents thought about. Perhaps the rich did, but other than them, I don't think most middle class parents pursued such things unless presumably they were serious and ambitious sports families.

    No mention of GH in Davis’s case, but it is brought up later in the article. I’ll draw my own conclusions.
     
    Interestingly, this sort of late growth spurt happened naturally to older NBA players like Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman, who grew like a foot in just a year after high school.

    https://www.basketballnetwork.net/dennis-rodmans-incredible-growth-spurt-at-the-age-of-19-saved-his-life-and-his-basketball-career/

    Rodman never played high-school basketball and was characterized as someone who is not athletic standing at only 5’6″ during his freshman year and would later fail to make the football team which completely devasted him. After high school, he found a job as a janitor at a nearby airport where he tried to steal watches from a jewelry store. Of course, he was caught, but luckily for him, he only spent one night in prison but did lose his job. On top of that, his mom decided to kick him out of the house, which left him in a really bad situation.

    At this moment, Rodman was 19-years-old, without a job, place to stay and hasn’t played a single game of organized basketball standing at 5’9″. That summer, his entire life changed dramatically because of a ten-inch growth spurt. Rodman was now 6’7″ and decided to give basketball one more try as he enrolled in Cooke County College college and applied for their basketball team.
     

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Steve Sailer

  156. @Sean
    @Anonymous

    I don't think so, Messi had a legit short stature medical problem from ten years old, because five foot is a tragic height for a man to end up at , and treatment would have been given to him whether he planned to play sports or not.


    https://www.espn.co.uk/nba/story/_/id/18105767/the-nba-search-inches-where-come-next

    Back in the fall of 2008, Davis was a pretty good 6-foot-2 sophomore guard on a pretty bad Perspectives Charter School team in Chicago. He already towered over his mom, and was eye-to-eye with his dad, so Davis figured he was done growing. Cleveland State was the only college giving him a look.

    By the following spring he was 6-8, and, as his high school coach put it, "He could still do everything -- pass, shoot, dribble -- he did before. He was just a lot taller." Anthony Sr. bought his son an extralong bed to accommodate his size-14 feet, which had been hanging off the end, while Junior swapped out Allen Iverson as his role model in favor of the Kevins, Durant and Garnett. After his growth spurt, he played one-half of one game in a summer tournament in Virginia and returned home to more scholarship offers than he could read. Two more inches later, he was the top pick in the NBA draft.
     
    No mention of GH in Davis's case, but it is brought up later in the article. I'll draw my own conclusions.

    Judging by his abs, Messi is still taking growth hormone, but then even rappers are taking ii now for those all important sagging pants zero lower abdominal adiposity photo shoots (and we know prison blacks is where sag came from). Of course, all top pro athletes are currently taking GH stacked with steroids. Steroids affect your nerve transmission: make you faster and more skillful.

    https://youtu.be/Zt8aq-TOk8I?list=PLRN8q74qUyEatFcf96v8GrByoTUB8W2Em&t=252

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Anonymous

    Lionel Messi is just about the only athlete we know about taking human growth hormone.

    PED use is a fascinating subject that we know little about in public. I only discovered a few years ago that the first team to use steroids heavily was the 1958 LSU national championship team.

  157. It began in the USA about 1949 when some Olympic Weightlifters noticed an East European team were catheterizing themselves. The explained these things called steroids made their prostates blow up. (artificial testosterone is metabolised to dihydrotestosterone). It has moved on a lot, a few years ago the Chinese were actually deliberately using dihydrotestosterone (the thing that makes you go bald and have prostate problems as natural conversion of it increases with age) for its effect on nerve tissue.

    Juan Manuel Marquez had three bouts with Manny Pacquiao and never won or decked him. For the fourth

    MARQUEZ—who’s moving up in weight for the fight—has a new physique. He has retained the services of Angel Hernandez, the strength and conditioning coach who has been working with Jamaican sprinter Usain Bolt. Hernandez has been an omnipresent figure on 24/7, and Marquez’s new bulk has been noted by viewers.

    In his late thirties Marquez suddenly looked like a Frankenstein’s monster created from the bodies of young Olympic champions. After a few rounds Marquez had was battered –his nose broken–and Pacquiao closed in for the kill.

    Angel Hernandez is the person formerly known as Angel “Memo” Heredia. Heredia, with a BALCO connection of his own, has been training both Marquez and Bolt under an assumed name.

    In the US government’s 2008 case against track coach Trevor Graham, stemming from the BALCO scandal, Memo Heredia was labeled “Source A.” He didn’t get that designation because he came first alphabetically. Heredia was the prosecution’s star witness, and he gave up comprehensive documentation showing PED use by stars like Marion Jones, Tim Montgomery, Justin Gatlin and C.J. Hunter. But Heredia wasn’t just a random eyewitness; he was caught dead to rights as a steroid dealer and user, and testified to save his own skin. In 2005 federal investigators confronted Heredia with evidence of money laundering and drug trafficking, and offered him a deal: Tell what you know or we’ll go after you. He gave up everyone he worked with in US Track and Field, and despite claims he wasn’t offered immunity, he has escaped prosecution himself.

    Mr. Heredia, a former Mexican national discus champion, is a secretive figure on the track circuit who describes himself as a chemist, scientist and nutritionist. The son of a chemist, Mr. Heredia received an undergraduate degree in kinesiology from Texas A&M in Kingsville, records show.

    He said he used family connections to pharmacies and labs in Mexico to help his business. For years, Mr. Heredia said, he helped his clients flout the rules and easily avoided detection. Substances like human growth hormone and the blood booster erythropoietin, or EPO, are still virtually impossible to detect, and “it is still easy to use testosterone” with fast-acting creams, he said. “You combine all these things – boom! – you get amazing results,” Mr. Heredia said.

    Pacquiao was at it too, they all are so it doesn’t really bother me as they are all incredible athletes naturally. But they are* all using. To say one particular tenth best athlete in the current era is not on PEDs would mean he was in reality the greatest of all time. No one is going to hide their light under a bushel like that. And sports journalists who have to feed their families are not going to call juicers out.

    *Andy Ruiz Jr may not be on anything apart from Mexican food/ beer and Snickers bars , but he is an outlier. And among athletes who are paid as he has been. Ruiz is obviously unprofessional in his training and preparation (though with naturally very fast hands he pulled of an upset). As a paid sportsperson, to be professional in the ethical sense you must take PEDs.

  158. Anonymous[318] • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean
    @Anonymous

    I don't think so, Messi had a legit short stature medical problem from ten years old, because five foot is a tragic height for a man to end up at , and treatment would have been given to him whether he planned to play sports or not.


    https://www.espn.co.uk/nba/story/_/id/18105767/the-nba-search-inches-where-come-next

    Back in the fall of 2008, Davis was a pretty good 6-foot-2 sophomore guard on a pretty bad Perspectives Charter School team in Chicago. He already towered over his mom, and was eye-to-eye with his dad, so Davis figured he was done growing. Cleveland State was the only college giving him a look.

    By the following spring he was 6-8, and, as his high school coach put it, "He could still do everything -- pass, shoot, dribble -- he did before. He was just a lot taller." Anthony Sr. bought his son an extralong bed to accommodate his size-14 feet, which had been hanging off the end, while Junior swapped out Allen Iverson as his role model in favor of the Kevins, Durant and Garnett. After his growth spurt, he played one-half of one game in a summer tournament in Virginia and returned home to more scholarship offers than he could read. Two more inches later, he was the top pick in the NBA draft.
     
    No mention of GH in Davis's case, but it is brought up later in the article. I'll draw my own conclusions.

    Judging by his abs, Messi is still taking growth hormone, but then even rappers are taking ii now for those all important sagging pants zero lower abdominal adiposity photo shoots (and we know prison blacks is where sag came from). Of course, all top pro athletes are currently taking GH stacked with steroids. Steroids affect your nerve transmission: make you faster and more skillful.

    https://youtu.be/Zt8aq-TOk8I?list=PLRN8q74qUyEatFcf96v8GrByoTUB8W2Em&t=252

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Anonymous

    I don’t think so, Messi had a legit short stature medical problem from ten years old, because five foot is a tragic height for a man to end up at , and treatment would have been given to him whether he planned to play sports or not.

    Pro soccer players begin serious play and training at a very young age. Pro leagues and club teams have farm systems and pipelines that get kids very young. Messi was quite good and serious about soccer from a young age.

    I’m roughly Messi’s age, and some of the short guys growing up in school ended up being in the low 5 feet range. Growing up middle class in the US in the 90s, seeking growth hormone treatment for short sons was not something parents thought about. Perhaps the rich did, but other than them, I don’t think most middle class parents pursued such things unless presumably they were serious and ambitious sports families.

    No mention of GH in Davis’s case, but it is brought up later in the article. I’ll draw my own conclusions.

    Interestingly, this sort of late growth spurt happened naturally to older NBA players like Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman, who grew like a foot in just a year after high school.

    https://www.basketballnetwork.net/dennis-rodmans-incredible-growth-spurt-at-the-age-of-19-saved-his-life-and-his-basketball-career/

    Rodman never played high-school basketball and was characterized as someone who is not athletic standing at only 5’6″ during his freshman year and would later fail to make the football team which completely devasted him. After high school, he found a job as a janitor at a nearby airport where he tried to steal watches from a jewelry store. Of course, he was caught, but luckily for him, he only spent one night in prison but did lose his job. On top of that, his mom decided to kick him out of the house, which left him in a really bad situation.

    At this moment, Rodman was 19-years-old, without a job, place to stay and hasn’t played a single game of organized basketball standing at 5’9″. That summer, his entire life changed dramatically because of a ten-inch growth spurt. Rodman was now 6’7″ and decided to give basketball one more try as he enrolled in Cooke County College college and applied for their basketball team.

    • LOL: Sean
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Anonymous

    Pippen and Rodman of the 1990s Chicago Bulls played at obscure colleges because they weren't heavily recruited out of high school. Jordan was a star recruit at mighty U. of North Carolina. But he famously didn't make the varsity as a sophomore (?) in high school because he wasn't very tall yet. The other part of the story is that his high school had a rule that only 1 sophomore was allowed on the varsity team, and so they picked a really tall sophomore center to have somebody to practice against the starting team's star center. But still ... you could have had Michael Jordan on your team for 3 years instead of 2; what were you thinking?

    In college, Rodman lived with a white family, who were the first people to be nice to him and not tell him all the time he was a weird-looking freak, which contributed to his being an interesting character.

    , @Steve Sailer
    @Anonymous

    Pippen and Rodman of the 1990s Chicago Bulls played at obscure colleges because they weren't heavily recruited out of high school. Jordan was a star recruit at mighty U. of North Carolina. But he famously didn't make the varsity as a sophomore (?) in high school because he wasn't very tall yet. The other part of the story is that his high school had a rule that only 1 sophomore was allowed on the varsity team, and so they picked a really tall sophomore center to have somebody to practice against the starting team's star center. But still ... you could have had Michael Jordan on your team for 3 years instead of 2; what were you thinking?

    In college, Rodman lived with a white family, who were the first people to be nice to him and not tell him all the time he was a weird-looking freak, which contributed to his being an interesting character.

    Replies: @Sean

  159. @Anonymous
    @Sean


    I don’t think so, Messi had a legit short stature medical problem from ten years old, because five foot is a tragic height for a man to end up at , and treatment would have been given to him whether he planned to play sports or not.
     
    Pro soccer players begin serious play and training at a very young age. Pro leagues and club teams have farm systems and pipelines that get kids very young. Messi was quite good and serious about soccer from a young age.

    I'm roughly Messi's age, and some of the short guys growing up in school ended up being in the low 5 feet range. Growing up middle class in the US in the 90s, seeking growth hormone treatment for short sons was not something parents thought about. Perhaps the rich did, but other than them, I don't think most middle class parents pursued such things unless presumably they were serious and ambitious sports families.

    No mention of GH in Davis’s case, but it is brought up later in the article. I’ll draw my own conclusions.
     
    Interestingly, this sort of late growth spurt happened naturally to older NBA players like Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman, who grew like a foot in just a year after high school.

    https://www.basketballnetwork.net/dennis-rodmans-incredible-growth-spurt-at-the-age-of-19-saved-his-life-and-his-basketball-career/

    Rodman never played high-school basketball and was characterized as someone who is not athletic standing at only 5’6″ during his freshman year and would later fail to make the football team which completely devasted him. After high school, he found a job as a janitor at a nearby airport where he tried to steal watches from a jewelry store. Of course, he was caught, but luckily for him, he only spent one night in prison but did lose his job. On top of that, his mom decided to kick him out of the house, which left him in a really bad situation.

    At this moment, Rodman was 19-years-old, without a job, place to stay and hasn’t played a single game of organized basketball standing at 5’9″. That summer, his entire life changed dramatically because of a ten-inch growth spurt. Rodman was now 6’7″ and decided to give basketball one more try as he enrolled in Cooke County College college and applied for their basketball team.
     

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Steve Sailer

    Pippen and Rodman of the 1990s Chicago Bulls played at obscure colleges because they weren’t heavily recruited out of high school. Jordan was a star recruit at mighty U. of North Carolina. But he famously didn’t make the varsity as a sophomore (?) in high school because he wasn’t very tall yet. The other part of the story is that his high school had a rule that only 1 sophomore was allowed on the varsity team, and so they picked a really tall sophomore center to have somebody to practice against the starting team’s star center. But still … you could have had Michael Jordan on your team for 3 years instead of 2; what were you thinking?

    In college, Rodman lived with a white family, who were the first people to be nice to him and not tell him all the time he was a weird-looking freak, which contributed to his being an interesting character.

  160. @Anonymous
    @Sean


    I don’t think so, Messi had a legit short stature medical problem from ten years old, because five foot is a tragic height for a man to end up at , and treatment would have been given to him whether he planned to play sports or not.
     
    Pro soccer players begin serious play and training at a very young age. Pro leagues and club teams have farm systems and pipelines that get kids very young. Messi was quite good and serious about soccer from a young age.

    I'm roughly Messi's age, and some of the short guys growing up in school ended up being in the low 5 feet range. Growing up middle class in the US in the 90s, seeking growth hormone treatment for short sons was not something parents thought about. Perhaps the rich did, but other than them, I don't think most middle class parents pursued such things unless presumably they were serious and ambitious sports families.

    No mention of GH in Davis’s case, but it is brought up later in the article. I’ll draw my own conclusions.
     
    Interestingly, this sort of late growth spurt happened naturally to older NBA players like Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman, who grew like a foot in just a year after high school.

    https://www.basketballnetwork.net/dennis-rodmans-incredible-growth-spurt-at-the-age-of-19-saved-his-life-and-his-basketball-career/

    Rodman never played high-school basketball and was characterized as someone who is not athletic standing at only 5’6″ during his freshman year and would later fail to make the football team which completely devasted him. After high school, he found a job as a janitor at a nearby airport where he tried to steal watches from a jewelry store. Of course, he was caught, but luckily for him, he only spent one night in prison but did lose his job. On top of that, his mom decided to kick him out of the house, which left him in a really bad situation.

    At this moment, Rodman was 19-years-old, without a job, place to stay and hasn’t played a single game of organized basketball standing at 5’9″. That summer, his entire life changed dramatically because of a ten-inch growth spurt. Rodman was now 6’7″ and decided to give basketball one more try as he enrolled in Cooke County College college and applied for their basketball team.
     

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Steve Sailer

    Pippen and Rodman of the 1990s Chicago Bulls played at obscure colleges because they weren’t heavily recruited out of high school. Jordan was a star recruit at mighty U. of North Carolina. But he famously didn’t make the varsity as a sophomore (?) in high school because he wasn’t very tall yet. The other part of the story is that his high school had a rule that only 1 sophomore was allowed on the varsity team, and so they picked a really tall sophomore center to have somebody to practice against the starting team’s star center. But still … you could have had Michael Jordan on your team for 3 years instead of 2; what were you thinking?

    In college, Rodman lived with a white family, who were the first people to be nice to him and not tell him all the time he was a weird-looking freak, which contributed to his being an interesting character.

    • Replies: @Sean
    @Steve Sailer

    Very few men get significantly taller after 18 years of age, except gifted basketball player who are a little on the short side. Those fellows oft times become human skyscrapers overnight and just when their natural growing might be expected to have ended. It's NOT just Rodman, Pippen grew six inches between 18 and 19 years of age, and there are many other examples. Such a mystery. Unless, someone said when the players reached 18, 'if you want to fulfil your dreams then you need to be taller, and at your age Mother Nature is not going to cut it'.
    -----
    The top male porn performers have had the erection control veins stripped out their penis and replaced with tubing controlled by a button behind their scrotum. Viagra is too slow the Caverject injections stop working and so robo is the only way to go.

    https://youtu.be/3gUmSD2d_HQ?t=1507

    They are like athletes: professionals who needs that performative edge and can stand proud ever after in the Hall of Fame. As the rather intelectual (all natural) Lena Paul points out, blame "late stage capitalism".

    Replies: @Truth, @Anonymous

  161. @Steve Sailer
    @Anonymous

    Pippen and Rodman of the 1990s Chicago Bulls played at obscure colleges because they weren't heavily recruited out of high school. Jordan was a star recruit at mighty U. of North Carolina. But he famously didn't make the varsity as a sophomore (?) in high school because he wasn't very tall yet. The other part of the story is that his high school had a rule that only 1 sophomore was allowed on the varsity team, and so they picked a really tall sophomore center to have somebody to practice against the starting team's star center. But still ... you could have had Michael Jordan on your team for 3 years instead of 2; what were you thinking?

    In college, Rodman lived with a white family, who were the first people to be nice to him and not tell him all the time he was a weird-looking freak, which contributed to his being an interesting character.

    Replies: @Sean

    Very few men get significantly taller after 18 years of age, except gifted basketball player who are a little on the short side. Those fellows oft times become human skyscrapers overnight and just when their natural growing might be expected to have ended. It’s NOT just Rodman, Pippen grew six inches between 18 and 19 years of age, and there are many other examples. Such a mystery. Unless, someone said when the players reached 18, ‘if you want to fulfil your dreams then you need to be taller, and at your age Mother Nature is not going to cut it’.
    —–
    The top male porn performers have had the erection control veins stripped out their penis and replaced with tubing controlled by a button behind their scrotum. Viagra is too slow the Caverject injections stop working and so robo is the only way to go.

    They are like athletes: professionals who needs that performative edge and can stand proud ever after in the Hall of Fame. As the rather intelectual (all natural) Lena Paul points out, blame “late stage capitalism”.

    • Replies: @Truth
    @Sean

    I graduated high school at 5'11 (albeit at 17) College at 6'2, now I'm 6'3.

    , @Anonymous
    @Sean


    It’s NOT just Rodman, Pippen grew six inches between 18 and 19 years of age, and there are many other examples. Such a mystery.
     
    Are you suggesting that Rodman and Pippen took GH when they had their growth spurts? Seems unlikely. They came of age in the 70s in obscure places. Rodman in Texas; Pippen was a farmboy from rural Arkansas.

    Replies: @Sean

  162. @Ann T. Zemitik
    Let me know when they start getting whiter. And less inky. Then maybe I'll watch a game again.

    Replies: @Truth

    I hear their are really great games, everyday between 12:00 and 1:00 at your local Jewish Community Center. The word is that Dr. Epperman, the Podiatrist has a wicked crossover dribble..

  163. @Sean
    @Steve Sailer

    Very few men get significantly taller after 18 years of age, except gifted basketball player who are a little on the short side. Those fellows oft times become human skyscrapers overnight and just when their natural growing might be expected to have ended. It's NOT just Rodman, Pippen grew six inches between 18 and 19 years of age, and there are many other examples. Such a mystery. Unless, someone said when the players reached 18, 'if you want to fulfil your dreams then you need to be taller, and at your age Mother Nature is not going to cut it'.
    -----
    The top male porn performers have had the erection control veins stripped out their penis and replaced with tubing controlled by a button behind their scrotum. Viagra is too slow the Caverject injections stop working and so robo is the only way to go.

    https://youtu.be/3gUmSD2d_HQ?t=1507

    They are like athletes: professionals who needs that performative edge and can stand proud ever after in the Hall of Fame. As the rather intelectual (all natural) Lena Paul points out, blame "late stage capitalism".

    Replies: @Truth, @Anonymous

    I graduated high school at 5’11 (albeit at 17) College at 6’2, now I’m 6’3.

  164. Anonymous[370] • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean
    @Steve Sailer

    Very few men get significantly taller after 18 years of age, except gifted basketball player who are a little on the short side. Those fellows oft times become human skyscrapers overnight and just when their natural growing might be expected to have ended. It's NOT just Rodman, Pippen grew six inches between 18 and 19 years of age, and there are many other examples. Such a mystery. Unless, someone said when the players reached 18, 'if you want to fulfil your dreams then you need to be taller, and at your age Mother Nature is not going to cut it'.
    -----
    The top male porn performers have had the erection control veins stripped out their penis and replaced with tubing controlled by a button behind their scrotum. Viagra is too slow the Caverject injections stop working and so robo is the only way to go.

    https://youtu.be/3gUmSD2d_HQ?t=1507

    They are like athletes: professionals who needs that performative edge and can stand proud ever after in the Hall of Fame. As the rather intelectual (all natural) Lena Paul points out, blame "late stage capitalism".

    Replies: @Truth, @Anonymous

    It’s NOT just Rodman, Pippen grew six inches between 18 and 19 years of age, and there are many other examples. Such a mystery.

    Are you suggesting that Rodman and Pippen took GH when they had their growth spurts? Seems unlikely. They came of age in the 70s in obscure places. Rodman in Texas; Pippen was a farmboy from rural Arkansas.

    • Replies: @Sean
    @Anonymous


    Seems unlikely
     
    Steroids have been used in US sports earlier than you would think, started in the late 1940s. Growth hormone as a PED has may not have been in the news back in the 90s ....

    How the greatness of Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman ...www.espn.co.uk › nba › story › how-greatness-scottie-...
    23 Apr 2020 — Looking at the list of recent Finals MVPs, it's impossible not to see Pippen's impact. Many of today's most impactful players are built like Pippen.
     

    Growth hormone affects the bones of one's face. Look at Rodman's face and compare to Pippen's; both had exceptionally long arms for their height and some other peculiarities. The main likelihood issue is not merely young men growing several inches--even after they turned 20, but the freakish late growth coming in an extremely timely fashion to rescue them from having to spend their lives in Toadsuck. And if you think they are not smart enough, the growth made those close to them and advising them about how to have a great career a lot of money as well.

    Deus ex machina - Wikipediaen.wikipedia.org › wiki › Deus_ex_machina
    ʊs ɛks ˈmaːkʰɪnaː]; plural: dei ex machina; English 'god from the machine') is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem in a story is suddenly and abruptly resolved by an unexpected and unlikely occurrence.
     
    Dindu Nuffin.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  165. @Anonymous
    @Sean


    It’s NOT just Rodman, Pippen grew six inches between 18 and 19 years of age, and there are many other examples. Such a mystery.
     
    Are you suggesting that Rodman and Pippen took GH when they had their growth spurts? Seems unlikely. They came of age in the 70s in obscure places. Rodman in Texas; Pippen was a farmboy from rural Arkansas.

    Replies: @Sean

    Seems unlikely

    Steroids have been used in US sports earlier than you would think, started in the late 1940s. Growth hormone as a PED has may not have been in the news back in the 90s ….

    How the greatness of Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman …www.espn.co.uk › nba › story › how-greatness-scottie-…
    23 Apr 2020 — Looking at the list of recent Finals MVPs, it’s impossible not to see Pippen’s impact. Many of today’s most impactful players are built like Pippen.

    Growth hormone affects the bones of one’s face. Look at Rodman’s face and compare to Pippen’s; both had exceptionally long arms for their height and some other peculiarities. The main likelihood issue is not merely young men growing several inches–even after they turned 20, but the freakish late growth coming in an extremely timely fashion to rescue them from having to spend their lives in Toadsuck. And if you think they are not smart enough, the growth made those close to them and advising them about how to have a great career a lot of money as well.

    Deus ex machina – Wikipediaen.wikipedia.org › wiki › Deus_ex_machina
    ʊs ɛks ˈmaːkʰɪnaː]; plural: dei ex machina; English ‘god from the machine’) is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem in a story is suddenly and abruptly resolved by an unexpected and unlikely occurrence.

    Dindu Nuffin.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Sean

    Pippen and Rodman were dirt poor growing up. Maybe they were given human growth hormone in the early 1980s, but their backgrounds don't make it sound plausible.

    If you look at documented cases of early steroid use, you can find common links: the same strength coach was with LSU in 1958 and the San Diego Chargers in 1963.

    Likewise, I've found the name of the Southern California sports doctor who was promoting steroid use in football and track in the 1960s in SoCal. He then shows up as the team doctor of the famous 1968 US Olympic track and field team in Mexico City. My point is that he was in a sophisticated part of the country and was linked with several well-known successes.

    If you can link Rodman or Pippen to a coach who had other surprising successes, then let me know.

  166. @Sean
    @Anonymous


    Seems unlikely
     
    Steroids have been used in US sports earlier than you would think, started in the late 1940s. Growth hormone as a PED has may not have been in the news back in the 90s ....

    How the greatness of Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman ...www.espn.co.uk › nba › story › how-greatness-scottie-...
    23 Apr 2020 — Looking at the list of recent Finals MVPs, it's impossible not to see Pippen's impact. Many of today's most impactful players are built like Pippen.
     

    Growth hormone affects the bones of one's face. Look at Rodman's face and compare to Pippen's; both had exceptionally long arms for their height and some other peculiarities. The main likelihood issue is not merely young men growing several inches--even after they turned 20, but the freakish late growth coming in an extremely timely fashion to rescue them from having to spend their lives in Toadsuck. And if you think they are not smart enough, the growth made those close to them and advising them about how to have a great career a lot of money as well.

    Deus ex machina - Wikipediaen.wikipedia.org › wiki › Deus_ex_machina
    ʊs ɛks ˈmaːkʰɪnaː]; plural: dei ex machina; English 'god from the machine') is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem in a story is suddenly and abruptly resolved by an unexpected and unlikely occurrence.
     
    Dindu Nuffin.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Pippen and Rodman were dirt poor growing up. Maybe they were given human growth hormone in the early 1980s, but their backgrounds don’t make it sound plausible.

    If you look at documented cases of early steroid use, you can find common links: the same strength coach was with LSU in 1958 and the San Diego Chargers in 1963.

    Likewise, I’ve found the name of the Southern California sports doctor who was promoting steroid use in football and track in the 1960s in SoCal. He then shows up as the team doctor of the famous 1968 US Olympic track and field team in Mexico City. My point is that he was in a sophisticated part of the country and was linked with several well-known successes.

    If you can link Rodman or Pippen to a coach who had other surprising successes, then let me know.

  167. After 1980 GH was no longer obtained from from cadaver pituitaries, but manufactured and so cheaply available in Mexico. Coaches don’t come into it. You get advice on and supply of PEDs at gyms, where a pal injects you in the buttock. And Rodman was living at a gym all day every day when he was 20, which is when his growth started from a height of 5’9”. Ten inches over one summer. Anyone thinks that is natural, I have some raffle tickets to sell them.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Sean

    Interesting.

    I was driving down Lake Shore Drive once and looked to my left and there was an extremely unusual-looking man on a Harley. It was Dennis Rodman. He is memorably different-looking. While I'm a big Scottie Pippen fan, Rodman was definitely the most unusual of the 1990s Chicago Bulls, as his (recent and apparently fairly beneficial) involvement in diplomacy with North Korea suggests.

    On the other hand, Rodman's greatness as a rebounder (he led the NBA 7 years in a row, racking up numbers like 18.7 rebounds per game seldom seen since Russell and Chamberlain) seemed to have a cognitive dimension. He could anticipate better than anybody else where a shot would bounce off to and get himself to that spot first.

    Perhaps HGH improves spatial reasoning? Barry Bonds on steroids and HGH was the greatest baseball hitter at least since Ted Williams at anticipating whether a pitch would be a strike or a ball: Williams' peak was, what, 162 walks in a season but Bonds had an insane 232. Bonds' peak walks before he got into PEDs in 1999, if we can believe his ex-mistress on the dates, was 151 walks in 1996.

    Are there any photos of Dennis Rodman's head before and after? HGH appears to have given Jose Canseco and Barry Bonds bigger heads. My vague impression is that Rodman has a small head for his height (listed at 6'8").

    Rodman's father, the late Philander Rodman Jr., looks like he was 6'3" or so at his peak.

    Replies: @Sean, @Anonymous

    , @Anonymous
    @Sean

    I don't think even the cutting edge bodybuilders in Southern California were messing around with HGH at the time. They were using a handful of steroids at modest amounts by today's standards.

    HGH has become mainstream and popular over the past decade and 20 years. In the 90s it was quite rarefied and experimental. Probably mostly rich people under close supervision with their doctors experimented much with it.

    Rodman hanging out at the gym all that time isn't that unusual. Young black guys hanging out at gyms or outdoor public basketball courts all the time is not unusual, or at least wasn't before the internet and smartphones.

    I suppose it's possible that he took HGH. But it seems like that's the sort of thing Rodman would happily admit to and publicize. He's not exactly shy about sharing embarrassing details about himself or behaving strangely.

    Replies: @Sean

    , @Anonymous
    @Sean

    Growth hormone was first synthesized in 1979. It is difficult to make. It was not cheap in Mexico 1980. It was only legally available in 1985. Athletes were taking cadaver HGH before then, but it was expensive. With synthetics there was even more diversion, but it took time for the price to come down.

    Also, giving it to short 12 year olds doesn't work very well. Why would giving it to tall 20 year olds work better? If it were so easy to induce a growth spurt, we'd hear about a lot more NBA stars who had them.

    Replies: @Sean

  168. @Sean
    After 1980 GH was no longer obtained from from cadaver pituitaries, but manufactured and so cheaply available in Mexico. Coaches don't come into it. You get advice on and supply of PEDs at gyms, where a pal injects you in the buttock. And Rodman was living at a gym all day every day when he was 20, which is when his growth started from a height of 5'9''. Ten inches over one summer. Anyone thinks that is natural, I have some raffle tickets to sell them.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ro-80Pn29s

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Anonymous, @Anonymous

    Interesting.

    I was driving down Lake Shore Drive once and looked to my left and there was an extremely unusual-looking man on a Harley. It was Dennis Rodman. He is memorably different-looking. While I’m a big Scottie Pippen fan, Rodman was definitely the most unusual of the 1990s Chicago Bulls, as his (recent and apparently fairly beneficial) involvement in diplomacy with North Korea suggests.

    On the other hand, Rodman’s greatness as a rebounder (he led the NBA 7 years in a row, racking up numbers like 18.7 rebounds per game seldom seen since Russell and Chamberlain) seemed to have a cognitive dimension. He could anticipate better than anybody else where a shot would bounce off to and get himself to that spot first.

    Perhaps HGH improves spatial reasoning? Barry Bonds on steroids and HGH was the greatest baseball hitter at least since Ted Williams at anticipating whether a pitch would be a strike or a ball: Williams’ peak was, what, 162 walks in a season but Bonds had an insane 232. Bonds’ peak walks before he got into PEDs in 1999, if we can believe his ex-mistress on the dates, was 151 walks in 1996.

    Are there any photos of Dennis Rodman’s head before and after? HGH appears to have given Jose Canseco and Barry Bonds bigger heads. My vague impression is that Rodman has a small head for his height (listed at 6’8″).

    Rodman’s father, the late Philander Rodman Jr., looks like he was 6’3″ or so at his peak.

    • Replies: @Sean
    @Steve Sailer

    Rodman's life until 19 years old revolved around practicing with his six foot tall basketball star older sisters. He was naturally very gifted with spatial awareness and speedy reactions I suspect. I think the head growth thing is when you abuse GH as an older person. Long bones are sealed by then.

    His jaw does protrude prodigiously, but I'm backing off the face thing having seen him looking similar when young. Rather surprisingly, when one makes comparison his head does not look at all small next to players like Jordan's. I suppose his tranny tendencies make one file away an impression of Rodman that is unrealistically gracile in physique.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

    , @Anonymous
    @Steve Sailer

    Rodman's height doesn't seem to be that much of an outlier in his family considering his father's and sisters' heights.

    By contrast, Michael Jordan is 6'6" but his parents and siblings are all well under 6'. His father was only 5'9", and his mother is 5'5". Jordan's brother is only like 5'8". Jordan's sons, who played Division I college basketball at strong programs like Illinois and Central Florida and presumably had access to the best drugs and doctors in the world, are "only" 6'1" and 6'2" and couldn't make it to the NBA as a result.

    Rodman was athletic in terms of quickness and long limbs and anticipation, although he wasn't very coordinated and skilled like Pippen was. Pippen was phenomenal in coordination and skills for someone 6'8". He had the coordination/skills of someone a foot shorter, while Rodman moved like a more typical tall and lanky guy, albeit with greater speed and quickness.

    Both Rodman and Pippen are unusual looking and quite different in appearance than typical American blacks. But their pictures from childhood don't suggest their unusual appearance was HGH induced.

    Pippen has a prominent nose and pronounced nasal bridge which is not typical of blacks. It's more like the prominent aquiline nose that some American Indians or Caucasoids have. As someone from rural Arkansas, it's not impossible that he would have some Indian or white admixture that would result in such features. Pippen actually looks like those Muslim black Africans from places like Sudan that have Arab admixture and differ in appearance from typical black Africans. He looks like he could be Osama bin Laden's half-brother or son by a black woman.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  169. @Steve Sailer
    @Sean

    Interesting.

    I was driving down Lake Shore Drive once and looked to my left and there was an extremely unusual-looking man on a Harley. It was Dennis Rodman. He is memorably different-looking. While I'm a big Scottie Pippen fan, Rodman was definitely the most unusual of the 1990s Chicago Bulls, as his (recent and apparently fairly beneficial) involvement in diplomacy with North Korea suggests.

    On the other hand, Rodman's greatness as a rebounder (he led the NBA 7 years in a row, racking up numbers like 18.7 rebounds per game seldom seen since Russell and Chamberlain) seemed to have a cognitive dimension. He could anticipate better than anybody else where a shot would bounce off to and get himself to that spot first.

    Perhaps HGH improves spatial reasoning? Barry Bonds on steroids and HGH was the greatest baseball hitter at least since Ted Williams at anticipating whether a pitch would be a strike or a ball: Williams' peak was, what, 162 walks in a season but Bonds had an insane 232. Bonds' peak walks before he got into PEDs in 1999, if we can believe his ex-mistress on the dates, was 151 walks in 1996.

    Are there any photos of Dennis Rodman's head before and after? HGH appears to have given Jose Canseco and Barry Bonds bigger heads. My vague impression is that Rodman has a small head for his height (listed at 6'8").

    Rodman's father, the late Philander Rodman Jr., looks like he was 6'3" or so at his peak.

    Replies: @Sean, @Anonymous

    Rodman’s life until 19 years old revolved around practicing with his six foot tall basketball star older sisters. He was naturally very gifted with spatial awareness and speedy reactions I suspect. I think the head growth thing is when you abuse GH as an older person. Long bones are sealed by then.

    His jaw does protrude prodigiously, but I’m backing off the face thing having seen him looking similar when young. Rather surprisingly, when one makes comparison his head does not look at all small next to players like Jordan’s. I suppose his tranny tendencies make one file away an impression of Rodman that is unrealistically gracile in physique.

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    @Sean

    Another Hall of Famer who famously grew late in his life was David Robinson. He was 5-9 as a HS junior and 6-6 as a HS senior. Robinson was also smart, scoring a 1320 SAT. The Naval Academy had a height limit of 6-6, so he decided to go there. Then he grew another seven inches while he was there, but Navy wasn't going to look a gift horse in the mouth and they decided to let him stay in school. He took them to the Elite Eight his junior year, defeating Syracuse along the way before losing to Duke. They haven't won an NCAA game since.

    As an aside, showing it is better to be lucky than to be good, his coach at Navy, Paul Evans, used that season to get the job at Pitt.

  170. Anonymous[312] • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean
    After 1980 GH was no longer obtained from from cadaver pituitaries, but manufactured and so cheaply available in Mexico. Coaches don't come into it. You get advice on and supply of PEDs at gyms, where a pal injects you in the buttock. And Rodman was living at a gym all day every day when he was 20, which is when his growth started from a height of 5'9''. Ten inches over one summer. Anyone thinks that is natural, I have some raffle tickets to sell them.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ro-80Pn29s

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Anonymous, @Anonymous

    I don’t think even the cutting edge bodybuilders in Southern California were messing around with HGH at the time. They were using a handful of steroids at modest amounts by today’s standards.

    HGH has become mainstream and popular over the past decade and 20 years. In the 90s it was quite rarefied and experimental. Probably mostly rich people under close supervision with their doctors experimented much with it.

    Rodman hanging out at the gym all that time isn’t that unusual. Young black guys hanging out at gyms or outdoor public basketball courts all the time is not unusual, or at least wasn’t before the internet and smartphones.

    I suppose it’s possible that he took HGH. But it seems like that’s the sort of thing Rodman would happily admit to and publicize. He’s not exactly shy about sharing embarrassing details about himself or behaving strangely.

    • Replies: @Sean
    @Anonymous

    Ben Jonson won the 1988 Olympic Gold with GH (I think when they re-tested all of the samples with modern techniques, the only clean person in the sprint competition of 1988 was the 18th fastest). It was made as illegal as cocaine in the US after that so I doubt anyone would be owning up to GH. It is true that the PED effect of GH was less known in the 90s.

    However, let us be clear that the effect of Human Grown Hormone I am suggesting Rodman, Pippen and Jordan ECT ECT may have utilised is the long established one of increasing height in those who are not fully mature adults. This had been done since the 50's for legitimate medical treatment of undersized children, and was no kind of secret.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Anonymous

  171. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean
    After 1980 GH was no longer obtained from from cadaver pituitaries, but manufactured and so cheaply available in Mexico. Coaches don't come into it. You get advice on and supply of PEDs at gyms, where a pal injects you in the buttock. And Rodman was living at a gym all day every day when he was 20, which is when his growth started from a height of 5'9''. Ten inches over one summer. Anyone thinks that is natural, I have some raffle tickets to sell them.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ro-80Pn29s

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Anonymous, @Anonymous

    Growth hormone was first synthesized in 1979. It is difficult to make. It was not cheap in Mexico 1980. It was only legally available in 1985. Athletes were taking cadaver HGH before then, but it was expensive. With synthetics there was even more diversion, but it took time for the price to come down.

    Also, giving it to short 12 year olds doesn’t work very well. Why would giving it to tall 20 year olds work better? If it were so easy to induce a growth spurt, we’d hear about a lot more NBA stars who had them.

    • Replies: @Sean
    @Anonymous


    Also, giving it to short 12 year olds doesn’t work very well. Why would giving it to tall 20 year olds work better?
     
    Because as a legitimate medical treatment it is carefully given to those naturally insensitive to it. When you as a daredevil with normal sensitivity to GH and a willingness to take any amount needed for results put an exogenous hormone into a system tuned for endogenous hormone homeostasis, you are bypassing a feedback control mechanism that evolved to modulate your body's own production of GH so you do not end up 6'9''. All you need is someone to shoot you up and money to buy the stuff, and a dealer. Rodman, who didn't date so had none of the associated expenses, was caught stealing from a warehouse where he worked at about this time.

    If it were so easy to induce a growth spurt, we’d hear about a lot more NBA stars who had them..
     
    See 8 Craziest Growth Spurts In NBA History. And that is only the the craziest eight of those we know about because they became stars and the fans of that era were naive enough that the preternatural 'growth spurts' did not create much disquiet. You can bet the current stars are not going to talk about such boy to man years of growth as Rodman had over four months when he was 19 and apparently adult height. Don't get me wrong, the stars on their GH stilts are superbly gifted athletes naturally, they just needed a little height to leverage it.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  172. @Polynikes
    @ganderson

    I don’t know enough about Hockey or Soccer, but I’d guess they are similar in terms of individual free flowing movement operating as one unit that’s hard to isolate in a statistical sense.

    I was thinking more in terms of traditional US sports like Football, baseball, golf, etc...

    Replies: @SunBakedSuburb, @Ganderson

    In the part of the USA I grew up in hockey is a typical US sport. I know what you mean though, and it is harder to quantify.

  173. Anonymous[805] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    @Sean

    Interesting.

    I was driving down Lake Shore Drive once and looked to my left and there was an extremely unusual-looking man on a Harley. It was Dennis Rodman. He is memorably different-looking. While I'm a big Scottie Pippen fan, Rodman was definitely the most unusual of the 1990s Chicago Bulls, as his (recent and apparently fairly beneficial) involvement in diplomacy with North Korea suggests.

    On the other hand, Rodman's greatness as a rebounder (he led the NBA 7 years in a row, racking up numbers like 18.7 rebounds per game seldom seen since Russell and Chamberlain) seemed to have a cognitive dimension. He could anticipate better than anybody else where a shot would bounce off to and get himself to that spot first.

    Perhaps HGH improves spatial reasoning? Barry Bonds on steroids and HGH was the greatest baseball hitter at least since Ted Williams at anticipating whether a pitch would be a strike or a ball: Williams' peak was, what, 162 walks in a season but Bonds had an insane 232. Bonds' peak walks before he got into PEDs in 1999, if we can believe his ex-mistress on the dates, was 151 walks in 1996.

    Are there any photos of Dennis Rodman's head before and after? HGH appears to have given Jose Canseco and Barry Bonds bigger heads. My vague impression is that Rodman has a small head for his height (listed at 6'8").

    Rodman's father, the late Philander Rodman Jr., looks like he was 6'3" or so at his peak.

    Replies: @Sean, @Anonymous

    Rodman’s height doesn’t seem to be that much of an outlier in his family considering his father’s and sisters’ heights.

    By contrast, Michael Jordan is 6’6″ but his parents and siblings are all well under 6′. His father was only 5’9″, and his mother is 5’5″. Jordan’s brother is only like 5’8″. Jordan’s sons, who played Division I college basketball at strong programs like Illinois and Central Florida and presumably had access to the best drugs and doctors in the world, are “only” 6’1″ and 6’2″ and couldn’t make it to the NBA as a result.

    Rodman was athletic in terms of quickness and long limbs and anticipation, although he wasn’t very coordinated and skilled like Pippen was. Pippen was phenomenal in coordination and skills for someone 6’8″. He had the coordination/skills of someone a foot shorter, while Rodman moved like a more typical tall and lanky guy, albeit with greater speed and quickness.

    Both Rodman and Pippen are unusual looking and quite different in appearance than typical American blacks. But their pictures from childhood don’t suggest their unusual appearance was HGH induced.

    Pippen has a prominent nose and pronounced nasal bridge which is not typical of blacks. It’s more like the prominent aquiline nose that some American Indians or Caucasoids have. As someone from rural Arkansas, it’s not impossible that he would have some Indian or white admixture that would result in such features. Pippen actually looks like those Muslim black Africans from places like Sudan that have Arab admixture and differ in appearance from typical black Africans. He looks like he could be Osama bin Laden’s half-brother or son by a black woman.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Anonymous

    Back in 1981, I shook hands with L.A. mayor Tom Bradley. My impression: "Wow, he looks like Anwar Sadat."

  174. @Anonymous
    @Steve Sailer

    Rodman's height doesn't seem to be that much of an outlier in his family considering his father's and sisters' heights.

    By contrast, Michael Jordan is 6'6" but his parents and siblings are all well under 6'. His father was only 5'9", and his mother is 5'5". Jordan's brother is only like 5'8". Jordan's sons, who played Division I college basketball at strong programs like Illinois and Central Florida and presumably had access to the best drugs and doctors in the world, are "only" 6'1" and 6'2" and couldn't make it to the NBA as a result.

    Rodman was athletic in terms of quickness and long limbs and anticipation, although he wasn't very coordinated and skilled like Pippen was. Pippen was phenomenal in coordination and skills for someone 6'8". He had the coordination/skills of someone a foot shorter, while Rodman moved like a more typical tall and lanky guy, albeit with greater speed and quickness.

    Both Rodman and Pippen are unusual looking and quite different in appearance than typical American blacks. But their pictures from childhood don't suggest their unusual appearance was HGH induced.

    Pippen has a prominent nose and pronounced nasal bridge which is not typical of blacks. It's more like the prominent aquiline nose that some American Indians or Caucasoids have. As someone from rural Arkansas, it's not impossible that he would have some Indian or white admixture that would result in such features. Pippen actually looks like those Muslim black Africans from places like Sudan that have Arab admixture and differ in appearance from typical black Africans. He looks like he could be Osama bin Laden's half-brother or son by a black woman.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Back in 1981, I shook hands with L.A. mayor Tom Bradley. My impression: “Wow, he looks like Anwar Sadat.”

  175. @Sean
    @Steve Sailer

    Rodman's life until 19 years old revolved around practicing with his six foot tall basketball star older sisters. He was naturally very gifted with spatial awareness and speedy reactions I suspect. I think the head growth thing is when you abuse GH as an older person. Long bones are sealed by then.

    His jaw does protrude prodigiously, but I'm backing off the face thing having seen him looking similar when young. Rather surprisingly, when one makes comparison his head does not look at all small next to players like Jordan's. I suppose his tranny tendencies make one file away an impression of Rodman that is unrealistically gracile in physique.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

    Another Hall of Famer who famously grew late in his life was David Robinson. He was 5-9 as a HS junior and 6-6 as a HS senior. Robinson was also smart, scoring a 1320 SAT. The Naval Academy had a height limit of 6-6, so he decided to go there. Then he grew another seven inches while he was there, but Navy wasn’t going to look a gift horse in the mouth and they decided to let him stay in school. He took them to the Elite Eight his junior year, defeating Syracuse along the way before losing to Duke. They haven’t won an NCAA game since.

    As an aside, showing it is better to be lucky than to be good, his coach at Navy, Paul Evans, used that season to get the job at Pitt.

  176. @hhsiii
    @ScarletNumber

    Rich Yonaker took the first Tar Heel shot. Air ball. And the Duke fans let him have it. With a proto air ball chant, which has evolved quite a bit since then.

    Duke began that year ranked number 1. Gminski, Spanarkel and Gene Banks. When Banks was recruited, the question was who was better, Banks out of Philly or Brooklyn’s own Albert King, who ended up at Maryland. Only a few made the case for Earvin Johnson.

    Duke beat the Heels in the early season Big 4, the successor to the old Dixie Classic.

    Duke lost successive games to Ohio State and St John’s in December I think at the Garden. I was there.

    North Carolina beat Duke at home. They lost that 47-40 game on Duke senior night in Cameron. I watched from a tv in a Garden box (my dad worked for Kidde, Inc., which had a box), as a really bad Knicks team beat a bad Nets team.

    Carolina then beat Duke in the ACC Tournament.

    In the NCAA next weekend, both ranked like 4 and 6, North Carolina lost to Penn (which went to Final 4) and Duke lost to a pre-Mullin St John’s yet again. In North Carolina. They called it Black Friday on Tobacco Road.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

    Duke lost successive games to Ohio State and St John’s in December I think at the Garden. I was there.

    Yes, Friday and Saturday, December 29 and 30. The fourth team was Rutgers, who made the NCAA, while Ohio State didn’t.

    In the NCAA next weekend, both ranked like 4 and 6, North Carolina lost to Penn (which went to Final 4) and Duke lost to a pre-Mullin St John’s yet again. In North Carolina. They called it Black Friday on Tobacco Road.

    This was the first year the NCAA seeded the tournament, with UNC being 1 and Duke being 2 in the East. They wouldn’t be put in the same region now, but they were still figuring it out then. Penn was the 9 and St. John’s was the 10, so they each had to have an upset in the first round before achieving their upsets in the second round. Penn upset Iona, who was coached by Jim Valvano.

    I don’t know why it was called Black Friday, as the first round games were on Friday, and the in-state upsets were on Sunday.

    a really bad Knicks team beat a bad Nets team

    New York 111, New Jersey 107. Earl the Pearl led the Knicks with 28 points, while Bernard King scored 4o in a losing effort. The Nets ended up making the playoffs, however.

  177. @Anonymous
    @Sean

    I don't think even the cutting edge bodybuilders in Southern California were messing around with HGH at the time. They were using a handful of steroids at modest amounts by today's standards.

    HGH has become mainstream and popular over the past decade and 20 years. In the 90s it was quite rarefied and experimental. Probably mostly rich people under close supervision with their doctors experimented much with it.

    Rodman hanging out at the gym all that time isn't that unusual. Young black guys hanging out at gyms or outdoor public basketball courts all the time is not unusual, or at least wasn't before the internet and smartphones.

    I suppose it's possible that he took HGH. But it seems like that's the sort of thing Rodman would happily admit to and publicize. He's not exactly shy about sharing embarrassing details about himself or behaving strangely.

    Replies: @Sean

    Ben Jonson won the 1988 Olympic Gold with GH (I think when they re-tested all of the samples with modern techniques, the only clean person in the sprint competition of 1988 was the 18th fastest). It was made as illegal as cocaine in the US after that so I doubt anyone would be owning up to GH. It is true that the PED effect of GH was less known in the 90s.

    However, let us be clear that the effect of Human Grown Hormone I am suggesting Rodman, Pippen and Jordan ECT ECT may have utilised is the long established one of increasing height in those who are not fully mature adults. This had been done since the 50’s for legitimate medical treatment of undersized children, and was no kind of secret.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Sean

    Generally, it's not that hard to track suspicious athletes' likely suppliers.

    , @Anonymous
    @Sean

    I think you might be the first person anywhere to suggest that the success of arguably the greatest basketball player ever, and one of the greatest NBA teams ever, was due to the use of artificial GH producing late growth spurts.

    Pippen and Jordan grew up in rural Arkansas and North Carolina in the 70s. Rodman grew up in some backwater in Texas. Was GH a big thing in rural black communities back then? Maybe they were able to get into some farmer's stash of GH that was used to bulk up and grow livestock.

    An Olympic athlete in the late 80s having access to and using GH is quite different from black farmboys using it in the 70s. There was significant advances and dissemination in the use of PEDs in the 80s because of their heavy use by Soviet athletes and bodybuilders in the US.

  178. @Sean
    @Anonymous

    Ben Jonson won the 1988 Olympic Gold with GH (I think when they re-tested all of the samples with modern techniques, the only clean person in the sprint competition of 1988 was the 18th fastest). It was made as illegal as cocaine in the US after that so I doubt anyone would be owning up to GH. It is true that the PED effect of GH was less known in the 90s.

    However, let us be clear that the effect of Human Grown Hormone I am suggesting Rodman, Pippen and Jordan ECT ECT may have utilised is the long established one of increasing height in those who are not fully mature adults. This had been done since the 50's for legitimate medical treatment of undersized children, and was no kind of secret.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Anonymous

    Generally, it’s not that hard to track suspicious athletes’ likely suppliers.

  179. @Anonymous
    @Sean

    Growth hormone was first synthesized in 1979. It is difficult to make. It was not cheap in Mexico 1980. It was only legally available in 1985. Athletes were taking cadaver HGH before then, but it was expensive. With synthetics there was even more diversion, but it took time for the price to come down.

    Also, giving it to short 12 year olds doesn't work very well. Why would giving it to tall 20 year olds work better? If it were so easy to induce a growth spurt, we'd hear about a lot more NBA stars who had them.

    Replies: @Sean

    Also, giving it to short 12 year olds doesn’t work very well. Why would giving it to tall 20 year olds work better?

    Because as a legitimate medical treatment it is carefully given to those naturally insensitive to it. When you as a daredevil with normal sensitivity to GH and a willingness to take any amount needed for results put an exogenous hormone into a system tuned for endogenous hormone homeostasis, you are bypassing a feedback control mechanism that evolved to modulate your body’s own production of GH so you do not end up 6’9”. All you need is someone to shoot you up and money to buy the stuff, and a dealer. Rodman, who didn’t date so had none of the associated expenses, was caught stealing from a warehouse where he worked at about this time.

    If it were so easy to induce a growth spurt, we’d hear about a lot more NBA stars who had them..

    See 8 Craziest Growth Spurts In NBA History. And that is only the the craziest eight of those we know about because they became stars and the fans of that era were naive enough that the preternatural ‘growth spurts’ did not create much disquiet. You can bet the current stars are not going to talk about such boy to man years of growth as Rodman had over four months when he was 19 and apparently adult height. Don’t get me wrong, the stars on their GH stilts are superbly gifted athletes naturally, they just needed a little height to leverage it.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Sean

    Like I said, most of the early suspicious changes in body shape in sports history aren't that hard to link to likely environments for obtaining PEDs. E.g., Wilt Chamberlain added 40 pounds of muscle in the summer of 1968, which he spent hanging out at Muscle Beach in Venice, CA, just about the most steroid-aware place in America.

    Generally, it's not some deep dark secret either. Lots of jocks have been interviewed and thanked their suppliers.

    It shouldn't be that hard for you to come up with more circumstantial evidence that famous basketball players' late growth spurts were due to HGH if that is what happened.

    Replies: @Anonymous

  180. @Sean
    @Anonymous


    Also, giving it to short 12 year olds doesn’t work very well. Why would giving it to tall 20 year olds work better?
     
    Because as a legitimate medical treatment it is carefully given to those naturally insensitive to it. When you as a daredevil with normal sensitivity to GH and a willingness to take any amount needed for results put an exogenous hormone into a system tuned for endogenous hormone homeostasis, you are bypassing a feedback control mechanism that evolved to modulate your body's own production of GH so you do not end up 6'9''. All you need is someone to shoot you up and money to buy the stuff, and a dealer. Rodman, who didn't date so had none of the associated expenses, was caught stealing from a warehouse where he worked at about this time.

    If it were so easy to induce a growth spurt, we’d hear about a lot more NBA stars who had them..
     
    See 8 Craziest Growth Spurts In NBA History. And that is only the the craziest eight of those we know about because they became stars and the fans of that era were naive enough that the preternatural 'growth spurts' did not create much disquiet. You can bet the current stars are not going to talk about such boy to man years of growth as Rodman had over four months when he was 19 and apparently adult height. Don't get me wrong, the stars on their GH stilts are superbly gifted athletes naturally, they just needed a little height to leverage it.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Like I said, most of the early suspicious changes in body shape in sports history aren’t that hard to link to likely environments for obtaining PEDs. E.g., Wilt Chamberlain added 40 pounds of muscle in the summer of 1968, which he spent hanging out at Muscle Beach in Venice, CA, just about the most steroid-aware place in America.

    Generally, it’s not some deep dark secret either. Lots of jocks have been interviewed and thanked their suppliers.

    It shouldn’t be that hard for you to come up with more circumstantial evidence that famous basketball players’ late growth spurts were due to HGH if that is what happened.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Steve Sailer


    Generally, it’s not some deep dark secret either. Lots of jocks have been interviewed and thanked their suppliers.
     
    Also, given men's obsession with height and being taller, if height increasing GH were so readily available since the 70s, it would be a much bigger thing than steroids and would probably be a widely used and abused thing by now. Most men would rather be taller than have a bulked up bodybuilder physique that takes hours in the gym to develop even if taking steroids. A lot of men turn to steroids and spending hours in the gym to bulk up to compensate for lack of height. If they had the option, a lot of them would take the option of being a few inches taller over bigger muscles.
  181. It shouldn’t be that hard for you to come up with more circumstantial evidence that famous basketball players’ late growth spurts were due to HGH if that is what happened.

    Concealing it from testing is specialised knowledge not taught at medical school, so those gurus tend to pop up in the circle of GH as PED users, yes. However it is very much more difficult to find the kinks if they had been obscure when they were taking it, and not taking it as a PED but in the astrominic doses required to increase height, and were not being tested by athletic authorities. Using GH dose for simply for increasing height when one is not worrying about the patient being tested for PEDs is something most endocrinologists could handle. At the time they weren’t active pro players–Rodman had never played in a team at all–and it’s unlikely they’d have had connections in common. Rodman likely had the least medical advice on dosage and duration of using exogenous GH, and he has the look of acromegalic actor Rondo Hatton about him.

    Generally, it’s not some deep dark secret either.

    For some linebacker hired by the pound perhaps. For Rodman, pride and not wanting to have his legacy diminished would play a part. And what made Rodman a very creative player that was exciting to watch had little to do with his height, many players are that tall naturally (or otherwise) without being as good as him, so he might well think he is entitled to the Lion’s share of the credit for his athletic achievements, which would not be forthcoming if he admitted to a course of high dose GH between the ages of 19 and 20 even though it was for a limited time to increase height, not as an ongoing PED habit throughout his career.

    Lots of jocks have been interviewed and thanked their suppliers

    If they were named the suppliers were dead or doing a life bid I suspect

    A special section of the federal Controlled Substances Act makes it a crime to knowingly distribute HGH or possess HGH with intent to distribute for any use other than the treatment of a disease or other condition authorized by the federal government and under doctor’s orders. This complicated language may mean that doctors can be arrested for prescribing HGH for off-label use, a common practice which is not illegal for other medications.

    Penalties for a violation of the law can include fines plus up to five years in prison, or ten years if the offense involves an individual under 18. The violation is also classified as a felony, making the accused subject to asset forfeiture.

  182. @Ben tillman
    @hhsiii

    I went to Tates Locke’s basketball camp. I’m still waiting to see that palming call on Skip Wise in Chapel Hill in ‘75.

    Replies: @Hhsiii

    Two Bill Fosters and 2 Skips. Skip Brown was great. I think he became a Wachovia exec.

    Can’t believe we blew the Chapel Hill streak this year.

  183. Anonymous[169] • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean
    @Anonymous

    Ben Jonson won the 1988 Olympic Gold with GH (I think when they re-tested all of the samples with modern techniques, the only clean person in the sprint competition of 1988 was the 18th fastest). It was made as illegal as cocaine in the US after that so I doubt anyone would be owning up to GH. It is true that the PED effect of GH was less known in the 90s.

    However, let us be clear that the effect of Human Grown Hormone I am suggesting Rodman, Pippen and Jordan ECT ECT may have utilised is the long established one of increasing height in those who are not fully mature adults. This had been done since the 50's for legitimate medical treatment of undersized children, and was no kind of secret.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Anonymous

    I think you might be the first person anywhere to suggest that the success of arguably the greatest basketball player ever, and one of the greatest NBA teams ever, was due to the use of artificial GH producing late growth spurts.

    Pippen and Jordan grew up in rural Arkansas and North Carolina in the 70s. Rodman grew up in some backwater in Texas. Was GH a big thing in rural black communities back then? Maybe they were able to get into some farmer’s stash of GH that was used to bulk up and grow livestock.

    An Olympic athlete in the late 80s having access to and using GH is quite different from black farmboys using it in the 70s. There was significant advances and dissemination in the use of PEDs in the 80s because of their heavy use by Soviet athletes and bodybuilders in the US.

  184. Anonymous[169] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    @Sean

    Like I said, most of the early suspicious changes in body shape in sports history aren't that hard to link to likely environments for obtaining PEDs. E.g., Wilt Chamberlain added 40 pounds of muscle in the summer of 1968, which he spent hanging out at Muscle Beach in Venice, CA, just about the most steroid-aware place in America.

    Generally, it's not some deep dark secret either. Lots of jocks have been interviewed and thanked their suppliers.

    It shouldn't be that hard for you to come up with more circumstantial evidence that famous basketball players' late growth spurts were due to HGH if that is what happened.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    Generally, it’s not some deep dark secret either. Lots of jocks have been interviewed and thanked their suppliers.

    Also, given men’s obsession with height and being taller, if height increasing GH were so readily available since the 70s, it would be a much bigger thing than steroids and would probably be a widely used and abused thing by now. Most men would rather be taller than have a bulked up bodybuilder physique that takes hours in the gym to develop even if taking steroids. A lot of men turn to steroids and spending hours in the gym to bulk up to compensate for lack of height. If they had the option, a lot of them would take the option of being a few inches taller over bigger muscles.

  185. @ScarletNumber
    @hhsiii

    It's interesting how Bill Foster voluntarily left Duke for South Carolina, where in six seasons he never even qualified for the NCAA tournament. Ironically, in Foster's last season with USC Coach K took Duke to the Final Four.

    Replies: @Ben tillman, @hhsiii

    Jim Valvano counts as a member of the Bill E. Foster coaching tree. He coached him at Rutgers. Valvano was a pretty good player. So wasBoeheim.

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