The Unz Review • An Alternative Media Selection$
A Collection of Interesting, Important, and Controversial Perspectives Largely Excluded from the American Mainstream Media
 TeasersiSteve Blog
My Review of Dune
Email This Page to Someone

 Remember My Information



=>

Bookmark Toggle AllToCAdd to LibraryRemove from Library • B
Show CommentNext New CommentNext New ReplyRead More
ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
AgreeDisagreeThanksLOLTroll
These buttons register your public Agreement, Disagreement, Thanks, LOL, or Troll with the selected comment. They are ONLY available to recent, frequent commenters who have saved their Name+Email using the 'Remember My Information' checkbox, and may also ONLY be used three times during any eight hour period.
Ignore Commenter Follow Commenter
Search Text Case Sensitive  Exact Words  Include Comments
List of Bookmarks

From my new movie review in Taki’s Magazine:

‘Dune’: Old Spice in a New Age
Steve Sailer

October 27, 2021

Dune is an extraordinarily impressive (if not utterly enjoyable) adaptation of the first half of the epic 1965 science-fiction novel that George Lucas borrowed heavily from for his boys’ version in Star Wars. …

Dune is close to being a sword-and-sorcery fantasy, but it stays (narrowly) on the sci-fi side of the line because Herbert insisted on making up technical reasons for why, say, the nobles’ troops fight with swords and their leaders try to assassinate each other with poisoned jabs rather than just take off and nuke the entire site from orbit (it’s the only way to be sure).

Of course, the real reason for all the arms control in Dune is that edged weapons are cool. As Churchill complained after the Great War, “War, which used to be cruel and magnificent, has now become cruel and squalid.”

Dune is magnificent.

Read the whole thing there.

 
Hide 210 CommentsLeave a Comment
Commenters to Ignore...to FollowEndorsed Only
Trim Comments?
  1. As I said in my comment on Trevor Lynch’s review:

    Saw it, was bored by it, the colors and visuals were all muted, dark, and boring. I never read the books or saw other versions, so the story was alien to me. This reviewer is right, Zendaya was given prominence a lot in the dreams but she’s not even close to attractive enough to be some mystical It girl.

    Note to Hollywood: stop trying to make Zendaya a thing. She’s not going to be a thing. She’s best-friend-in-a-romcom or plain-jane-love-interest-in-an-indie-movie-for-an-ugly guy — and that’s if you can get past the blackness. She’s the worst thing in all the new Spiderman movies — not only for being dowdy, but also because she’s being a snarky bitch to Spiderman instead of the googly-eyed red-headed girl next door bombshell love interest he deserves.

    My friend, who has read the Dune books and loved them, was royally pissed off by the film. He even commented that the constant repetition of the image of the bull was out of place — a bull is only mentioned once in the novel and is not significant at all. Drove him nuts.

    Pass on this.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @R.G. Camara

    The bull that killed Duke Leto's bullfighter/duke father is mentioned more than once in the book. Lady Jessica is weirded out by it.

    This Zendaya girl was very pretty a few years ago in the low-brow "Greatest Showman" biopic about P.T. Barnum.

    Replies: @The Germ Theory of Disease, @Dave Pinsen, @Mike Tre, @R.G. Camara

    , @Mr. Anon
    @R.G. Camara


    Note to Hollywood: stop trying to make Zendaya a thing. She’s not going to be a thing.*
     
    Aye. Chani in the 1984 David Lynch version of Dune was portrayed by Sean Young. It's impossible to improve on Sean Young.

    *By the way: like the reference to the always funny Honest Trailers.

    Replies: @El Dato, @Pericles

    , @Dave Pinsen
    @R.G. Camara

    Read the book and then see the movie again. The best decision Villeneuve made was cutting out a lot of the exposition. Make it more visual like Kubrick did with 2001 (though Kubrick had much better music) and let viewers read the book for exposition.

    , @Peter Akuleyev
    @R.G. Camara

    she’s not even close to attractive enough to be some mystical It girl.

    Considering this is supposed to be a woman born and raised in a physically harsh environment without access to cosmetics or hairstylists, Zendaya is, if anything, probably too attractive. My recollection from the book was that Paul had a deep spiritual connection with Chani, she wasn't supposed to be a supermodel. I always assumed that Princess Irulan was supposed to be more physically attractive than Chani (at least by 11th Millenium imperial standards).

    Replies: @Colin Wright

    , @Mike Tre
    @R.G. Camara

    Can those of us who enjoy sci fi even trust movie makers to give us an honest effort in telling the story as opposed to more mindless social justice engineering? The casting of this Zendaya creature is one part of the clear answer.

    Replies: @Wilkey

    , @Paul Rise
    @R.G. Camara

    Pretty obvious that this world is one where the Taliban wins, probably mid 22nd century or so. Sounds about right.

    , @Anonymous
    @R.G. Camara


    Saw it, was bored by it, the colors and visuals were all muted, dark, and boring. I never read the books or saw other versions, so the story was alien to me. This reviewer is right, Zendaya was given prominence a lot in the dreams but she’s not even close to attractive enough to be some mystical It girl.
     
    Also the aesthetic overall was much more "ethnic" and less northern European. Not just Zendaya and the non-white characters, but also actors like Isaac, Bardem, etc who are very ethnic looking. I understand that characters have Greek names, it's a Mideastern setting, it's sci-fi/fantasy, etc., but it was a contrast with Lynch's more norther Euro centric version.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Dave Pinsen

  2. Who needs Dune on screen when we have Macbeth acted out in real life? Or at least McBeth:

    Family members devastated after landlord is accused of killing a tenant over heating complaint

    “War, which used to be cruel and magnificent, has now become cruel and squalid.”

    The same could be said for sex.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @Reg Cæsar

    Reg, I have read a few books about Churchill and by Churchill. He was a great quote for the press. However, when you are running young men into a meat grinder there is nothing magnificent about the ensuing gore and carnage. Magnificent says the man who took two leisurely baths every day and drank champagne all day long.

  3. So, they didn’t f it up? May have to watch it then!

  4. Thanks for this review, Steve; you’ve convinced me to go out and see Dune in the cinema.

  5. @R.G. Camara
    As I said in my comment on Trevor Lynch's review:

    Saw it, was bored by it, the colors and visuals were all muted, dark, and boring. I never read the books or saw other versions, so the story was alien to me. This reviewer is right, Zendaya was given prominence a lot in the dreams but she’s not even close to attractive enough to be some mystical It girl.

    Note to Hollywood: stop trying to make Zendaya a thing. She’s not going to be a thing. She’s best-friend-in-a-romcom or plain-jane-love-interest-in-an-indie-movie-for-an-ugly guy — and that’s if you can get past the blackness. She’s the worst thing in all the new Spiderman movies — not only for being dowdy, but also because she’s being a snarky bitch to Spiderman instead of the googly-eyed red-headed girl next door bombshell love interest he deserves.

    My friend, who has read the Dune books and loved them, was royally pissed off by the film. He even commented that the constant repetition of the image of the bull was out of place — a bull is only mentioned once in the novel and is not significant at all. Drove him nuts.

    Pass on this.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Mr. Anon, @Dave Pinsen, @Peter Akuleyev, @Mike Tre, @Paul Rise, @Anonymous

    The bull that killed Duke Leto’s bullfighter/duke father is mentioned more than once in the book. Lady Jessica is weirded out by it.

    This Zendaya girl was very pretty a few years ago in the low-brow “Greatest Showman” biopic about P.T. Barnum.

    • Disagree: Chrisnonymous
    • Replies: @The Germ Theory of Disease
    @Steve Sailer

    "This Zendaya girl was very pretty a few years ago"

    Well, that was Zendaya, this is now.

    OK, somebody can call up and have Alec Baldwin shoot me.

    Replies: @Boo Alcindor

    , @Dave Pinsen
    @Steve Sailer

    Zendaya is still sort of pretty when she's dolled up with professional hair & makeup, but desert messy doesn't suit her, and neither does proximity to Rebecca Ferguson.

    Maybe a better casting choice for Chani, if they had to make her mixed-race, would have been Hailee Steinfeld.

    https://www.hawtcelebs.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/hailee-steinfeld-at-buzzfeed-s-am-to-dm-in-new-york-11-01-2019-3.jpg

    Replies: @Franz, @S. Anonyia, @John Milton's Ghost, @guest007, @theMann, @Steve Sailer

    , @Mike Tre
    @Steve Sailer

    Zendaya is a like another Jada Pinkett. She thinks Perma-bitch face/attitude is enough to be a good actor, when in fact she is not pretty enough to make up for her bland and flat screen presence.

    Replies: @Mina Horowitz

    , @R.G. Camara
    @Steve Sailer


    The bull that killed Duke Leto’s bullfighter/duke father is mentioned more than once in the book. Lady Jessica is weirded out by it.
     
    While watching the movie and getting annoyed by the constant bull imagery, my frustrated buddy downloaded a digital version of Dune and did a control-F for "bull" and then for other bovine-esque references. He only found one, he said, solidifying his belief that the bull reference was the director's weird choice and thus making the movie "not really Dune."

    This Zendaya girl was very pretty a few years ago in the low-brow “Greatest Showman” biopic about P.T. Barnum.
     
    Yeah, standing next to the bearded fat lady and the Siamese twins she looked like a million bucks. (/sarcasm).

    At least she wasn't fat, and was giving off the sexy gymnast vibe. But other than that, it was her position as the lone non-freak that made her look appealing.

  6. Of course, the real reason for all the arms control in Dune is that edged weapons are cool. As Churchill complained after the Great War, “War, which used to be cruel and magnificent, has now become cruel and squalid.”

    Funny. I remember that quote as: “War, which used to be magnificent and cruel, has now become cruel and squalid.” Note the change in order. No offense to Steve or Churchill (Steve appears to be right on this), however I think it sounds better the way I remember it.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Mr. Anon

    When was war magnificent?

    I supposes riding horses is fun, but is there anything worse than having an arrow lodged inside you?

    War did get dreary with armies trained to serve in rifle battalions where men stood rigid as sitting ducks.
    And trench warfare in WWI did get squalid.

    But at least as sheer spectacle, what was more magnificent than WWII with advanced planes as sky horses. And Vietnam had air cavalry. And tank battles were awesome too.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2C7lFUG8pw0

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbR2JzMn2E

    Replies: @El Dato, @Ralph L, @Joe Stalin, @Buffalo Joe

  7. @Steve Sailer
    @R.G. Camara

    The bull that killed Duke Leto's bullfighter/duke father is mentioned more than once in the book. Lady Jessica is weirded out by it.

    This Zendaya girl was very pretty a few years ago in the low-brow "Greatest Showman" biopic about P.T. Barnum.

    Replies: @The Germ Theory of Disease, @Dave Pinsen, @Mike Tre, @R.G. Camara

    “This Zendaya girl was very pretty a few years ago”

    Well, that was Zendaya, this is now.

    OK, somebody can call up and have Alec Baldwin shoot me.

    • LOL: Jim Christian
    • Replies: @Boo Alcindor
    @The Germ Theory of Disease

    Baldwin's daughter should leave him a voice message.

  8. @R.G. Camara
    As I said in my comment on Trevor Lynch's review:

    Saw it, was bored by it, the colors and visuals were all muted, dark, and boring. I never read the books or saw other versions, so the story was alien to me. This reviewer is right, Zendaya was given prominence a lot in the dreams but she’s not even close to attractive enough to be some mystical It girl.

    Note to Hollywood: stop trying to make Zendaya a thing. She’s not going to be a thing. She’s best-friend-in-a-romcom or plain-jane-love-interest-in-an-indie-movie-for-an-ugly guy — and that’s if you can get past the blackness. She’s the worst thing in all the new Spiderman movies — not only for being dowdy, but also because she’s being a snarky bitch to Spiderman instead of the googly-eyed red-headed girl next door bombshell love interest he deserves.

    My friend, who has read the Dune books and loved them, was royally pissed off by the film. He even commented that the constant repetition of the image of the bull was out of place — a bull is only mentioned once in the novel and is not significant at all. Drove him nuts.

    Pass on this.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Mr. Anon, @Dave Pinsen, @Peter Akuleyev, @Mike Tre, @Paul Rise, @Anonymous

    Note to Hollywood: stop trying to make Zendaya a thing. She’s not going to be a thing.*

    Aye. Chani in the 1984 David Lynch version of Dune was portrayed by Sean Young. It’s impossible to improve on Sean Young.

    *By the way: like the reference to the always funny Honest Trailers.

    • Replies: @El Dato
    @Mr. Anon

    Haven't seen the movie but Sean Young was a bit weird as hardscrabble knifing, hunting & working girl of 13 who would take a bead on Paul Atreides, probably smells like a tramp as has skin like leather. (Also, those people must have super special mind improvement techniques or their years are longer).

    Also directly related to Kynes how about that!

    The feel when Zendaya looks good in that role.

    Maybe one could take Ellie from "The Last of Us", hunger her out a bit and give her a stillsuit?


    "So be it," Jessica said. She released her hold on him, stepped aside in full view of the bank in the basin. This is the test-mashed, she thought. But Paul must know about them even if I die for his knowledge.

    In the waiting silence, Paul inched forward to get a better view of where his mother stood. As he moved, he heard heavy breathing, suddenly stilled, above him in the vertical crack of the rock, and sensed a faint shadow there outlined against the stars.
    Stilgar's voice came up from the basin: "You, up there! Stop hunting the boy. He'll come down presently."

    The voice of a young boy or a girl sounded from the darkness above Paul: "But, Stil, he can't be far from--"

    "I said leave him be, Chani! You spawn of a lizard!"

    There came a whispered imprecation from above Paul and a low voice: "Call me spawn of a lizard!" But the shadow pulled back out of view.

    Paul returned his attention to the basin, picking out the gray-shadowed movement of Stilgar beside his mother.

    "Come in, all of you," Stilgar called. He turned to Jessica. "And now I'll ask you how we may be certain you'll fulfill your half of our bargain? You're the one's lived with papers and empty contracts and such as--"
     

    The companion pressed two squares of gauze into Stilgar's hand. Stilgar ran them through his fingers, fixed one around Jessica's neck beneath her hood, fitted the other around Paul's neck in the same way.

    "Now you wear the kerchief of the bakka," he said. "If we become separated, you will be recognized as belonging to Stilgar's sietch. We will talk of weapons another time."

    He moved out through his band now, inspecting them, giving Paul's Fremkit pack to one of his men to carry.

    Bakka, Jessica thought, recognizing the religious term: bakka--the weeper. She sensed how the symbolism of the kerchiefs united this band. Why should weeping unite them? she asked herself.

    Stilgar came to the young girl who had embarrassed Paul, said: "Chani, take the child-man under your wing. Keep him out of trouble."

    Chani touched Paul's arm. "Come along, child-man."
     

    Replies: @El Dato, @Pincher Martin

    , @Pericles
    @Mr. Anon

    Sean Young was, apart from her incredible looks, also pretty good at taking down various coworkers; I think she could have been a superior entertainment journalist or columnist of the old school. But in the end she lacked the judgement to see her position in Hollywood clearly and leave certain people alone, and was after a hostile PR campaign ultimately dismissed as a madwoman and a flake.

    Replies: @Simon

  9. Steve you need to fix that link to Takimag!

  10. @Steve Sailer
    @R.G. Camara

    The bull that killed Duke Leto's bullfighter/duke father is mentioned more than once in the book. Lady Jessica is weirded out by it.

    This Zendaya girl was very pretty a few years ago in the low-brow "Greatest Showman" biopic about P.T. Barnum.

    Replies: @The Germ Theory of Disease, @Dave Pinsen, @Mike Tre, @R.G. Camara

    Zendaya is still sort of pretty when she’s dolled up with professional hair & makeup, but desert messy doesn’t suit her, and neither does proximity to Rebecca Ferguson.

    Maybe a better casting choice for Chani, if they had to make her mixed-race, would have been Hailee Steinfeld.

    • Replies: @Franz
    @Dave Pinsen


    Maybe a better casting choice ... would have been Hailee Steinfeld.
     
    Hailee looks good and can act.

    But she'd crush Timothée Chalamet with the first wrong move. He's a squirt.
    , @S. Anonyia
    @Dave Pinsen

    This woman looks like some kind of Pacific Islander mix with a lot of plastic surgery, I cannot picture her in a desert. Zendaya at least looks vaguely Moroccan.

    Would have been best to cast a Middle Eastern actress, though.

    , @John Milton's Ghost
    @Dave Pinsen

    Good choice--plus if the Fremen are Arabs, there's a lot of leeway in whom you choose to play them. Steinfeld has formerly done a lot of teen angsty movies but is older now and seems a good fit.

    , @guest007
    @Dave Pinsen

    Hailee Steinfeld is actually younger than Zendaya and would probably have fit the role better.

    It seems that the director did not mind Dawson Casting.

    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DawsonCasting

    , @theMann
    @Dave Pinsen

    "and neither does proximity to Rebecca Ferguson"

    True not only of 99% of women in the world, but 99% of the Women in Hollywood, as well.


    Put my pointed comment about Zendaya in the Trevor Lynch Article, since I figure that way it will get published today.

    , @Steve Sailer
    @Dave Pinsen

    Hailee Steinfeld has "Dune" level diction as well. The Coens auditioned hundreds of adolescent actresses for "True Grit" before finding in her somebody who could handle the elaborate 19th Century dialogue.

  11. @R.G. Camara
    As I said in my comment on Trevor Lynch's review:

    Saw it, was bored by it, the colors and visuals were all muted, dark, and boring. I never read the books or saw other versions, so the story was alien to me. This reviewer is right, Zendaya was given prominence a lot in the dreams but she’s not even close to attractive enough to be some mystical It girl.

    Note to Hollywood: stop trying to make Zendaya a thing. She’s not going to be a thing. She’s best-friend-in-a-romcom or plain-jane-love-interest-in-an-indie-movie-for-an-ugly guy — and that’s if you can get past the blackness. She’s the worst thing in all the new Spiderman movies — not only for being dowdy, but also because she’s being a snarky bitch to Spiderman instead of the googly-eyed red-headed girl next door bombshell love interest he deserves.

    My friend, who has read the Dune books and loved them, was royally pissed off by the film. He even commented that the constant repetition of the image of the bull was out of place — a bull is only mentioned once in the novel and is not significant at all. Drove him nuts.

    Pass on this.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Mr. Anon, @Dave Pinsen, @Peter Akuleyev, @Mike Tre, @Paul Rise, @Anonymous

    Read the book and then see the movie again. The best decision Villeneuve made was cutting out a lot of the exposition. Make it more visual like Kubrick did with 2001 (though Kubrick had much better music) and let viewers read the book for exposition.

  12. I wrote this in Trevor Lynch’s thread:

    Villeneuve’s movie is beautiful, but the director drains so much of the drama out of several key scenes in Dune that I began to feel as if he was purposely trying to make an art film.

    First, there are too many dream sequences. Yes, Paul’s dreams are a major part of Herbert’s novel, but they don’t translate well to the screen. Villeneuve should have cut out half of them from the film. How many times did I need to see Chani’s face before, you know, actually seeing Chani?

    Second, the most dramatic early scenes in the novel Dune – the Gurney Halleck training session on Caladan; the hunter-seeker scene with Paul and Shadout Mapes; Duke Leto and Paul’s first experience with a sandworm devouring a spice mining vehicle; Paul and Jessica’s crash in the desert, their scramble to safety while being chased by a sandworm, which leads to their first meeting with Stilgar and Chani – are all underplayed dramatically.

    Third, the fight scenes are not very well done. The first fight between the Sardaukar and the Fremen, for example, should’ve been heavily choreographed and taken a good five minutes of screen time. We need to witness the ferocity of both, but also the superiority of the latter, for it will presage many of the battles to come. The Fremen hide in the sand and burst out to attack, which is a cool visual, but not much follows up on that.

    Fourth, some of the dialogue sounds tinny and inauthentic. Chani’s final “This is just the beginning” was soul-crushing in its contemporary feeling that seems to wink at the audience who might yearn for the sequel. I would’ve much preferred “Tell me about the waters of your home world, Usul.” And Chani’s opening exposition about her people being oppressed, which was echoed later by Dr Liet-Kynes, did not sound Fremen-like at all. Where were the warrior women who threw their babies at Sardaukars? The lines sounded more like they came from Frantz Fanon than from a Fremen.

    I did like some parts of the film. The use of the “Voice” was superb, the best visualization I’ve seen on film in showing how it might work. I also loved the hand signals. They were used to good effect in Lady Jessica’s meeting with Shadout Mapes. Stellan Skarsgard’s Baron Harkonnen looked and sounded perfect, much more dangerous and less clownish than the Kenneth McMillan performance in Lynch’s film or the gay turn of the character Ian McNeice delivers in the 2000 mini-series.

    But it wasn’t enough. Too many keys scenes were underdramatized, leaving me first bored and finally frustrated by what might have been.

    • Agree: S. Anonyia, TWS
    • Replies: @Anon
    @Pincher Martin


    How many times did I need to see Chani’s face before, you know, actually seeing Chani?
     
    I suspect that it was driven as much by business reasons as artistic ones. The character is barely in the film but the actress is a big part of the marketing and her contract probably requires a set amount of screen time as well.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

    , @Romanian
    @Pincher Martin

    I will not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. I agree with everything you said but I still loved the movie. I doubt I have seen a better adaptation other than Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter (both big budget affairs as well).

    My biggest gripe is with the fight scene and with the casting of Kynes.

  13. Somewhere past the halfway mark I began to feel that the combination of super-technology and feudalism was basically silly. We don’t have House Disney and Duke Apple. (Imagine Mark Zuckerberg as Baron Facebook….)

    Likewise, in this world the nearest thing to the Bene Gesserit is the feminist movement. Need I say more?

    I found the film’s gigantism quite tiring watched on TV. In a cinema I think it’d be nightmarish. But Leni Riefenstalh wouldn’t have been envious. She didn’t need CGI; whatever she wanted, she could stage it for real.

    • Replies: @El Dato
    @Joe S.Walker


    the combination of super-technology and feudalism was basically silly
     
    "High tech" and "Feudalism" are orthogonal concepts. Most people in Dune (possibly in the empire) don't have access to high tech at all, but apparently you can indeed service smuggler spaceships in the desert, kinda like the Millenium Falcon hidden under a rock.

    We don’t have House Disney and Duke Apple. (Imagine Mark Zuckerberg as Baron Facebook….)
     
    Soon. We haven't gone through the coming resource crunch and Malthusian beatdown ... yet. Give it a bit of time. "Baron Facebook commands your presence!" sounds impressive.

    Likewise, in this world the nearest thing to the Bene Gesserit is the feminist movement.
     
    Not at all. It's an Illuminati-Sciency mashup run by ultra-rational woman who are in perfect control of themselves. "Feminism" is unfettered emotional crisis 24/7.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Joe S.Walker

    , @Rob
    @Joe S.Walker

    Is the mix of super science and feudalism all that unbelievable? Part of the reason we live in a tumultuous social world is that tech is both new and ever-changing.

    Will it be ever-changing forever? Eventually, though it might take another few hundred years, everything will be optimally teched-out as far as any people’s biology allows. Already, broad meritocratic classes with little mixing are forming in the west. The only reasons meritocracy triumphed in Europe were American idealism, Soviet communism, and fear of soviet communism. The Soviets imploded. America is being swamped, and not poised for even another century. Will democracy be so popular when its standard-bearer has imploded?

    Plus, the Butlerian Jihad, the end of “thinking machines” was a religious revolution beyond even Islam. Civilization ossified in the whatever-century in the universe just like it ossified in the 6th (or whatever) century in the Arab world.

    Lastly, we see very little of Imperial society, just a desert backwater, two houses of the Imperial aristocracy, and the Emperor’s household. Maybe on Caladan, everyone whose last name is not Atreides takes IQ, aptitude, and interest tests at the end of school for sorting into economic roles.

    Not to mention, the Dune Universe is essentially, “long, long ago, in a galaxy far far away.” It’s not meant to be realistic. It is not meant to be prescriptivist, either. Idealist? No, not that.

    It exists to tell a story.

    If this is not giving too much away, how did they handle Chani being Liet-Kynes’ daughter? What with Liet-Kynes being a black woman. I always took that as Paul fell in love with the Fremen woman closest to his in social class. He did not fall in love with a backwater (well, not water) bumpkin. Or is she only the Imperial Planetologist’s daughter in the Scify miniseries? I have not seen the new movie, but that was the best Dune of the two.

    Replies: @Inquiring Mind

  14. @Mr. Anon
    @R.G. Camara


    Note to Hollywood: stop trying to make Zendaya a thing. She’s not going to be a thing.*
     
    Aye. Chani in the 1984 David Lynch version of Dune was portrayed by Sean Young. It's impossible to improve on Sean Young.

    *By the way: like the reference to the always funny Honest Trailers.

    Replies: @El Dato, @Pericles

    Haven’t seen the movie but Sean Young was a bit weird as hardscrabble knifing, hunting & working girl of 13 who would take a bead on Paul Atreides, probably smells like a tramp as has skin like leather. (Also, those people must have super special mind improvement techniques or their years are longer).

    Also directly related to Kynes how about that!

    The feel when Zendaya looks good in that role.

    Maybe one could take Ellie from “The Last of Us”, hunger her out a bit and give her a stillsuit?

    “So be it,” Jessica said. She released her hold on him, stepped aside in full view of the bank in the basin. This is the test-mashed, she thought. But Paul must know about them even if I die for his knowledge.

    In the waiting silence, Paul inched forward to get a better view of where his mother stood. As he moved, he heard heavy breathing, suddenly stilled, above him in the vertical crack of the rock, and sensed a faint shadow there outlined against the stars.
    Stilgar’s voice came up from the basin: “You, up there! Stop hunting the boy. He’ll come down presently.”

    The voice of a young boy or a girl sounded from the darkness above Paul: “But, Stil, he can’t be far from–”

    “I said leave him be, Chani! You spawn of a lizard!”

    There came a whispered imprecation from above Paul and a low voice: “Call me spawn of a lizard!” But the shadow pulled back out of view.

    Paul returned his attention to the basin, picking out the gray-shadowed movement of Stilgar beside his mother.

    “Come in, all of you,” Stilgar called. He turned to Jessica. “And now I’ll ask you how we may be certain you’ll fulfill your half of our bargain? You’re the one’s lived with papers and empty contracts and such as–”

    The companion pressed two squares of gauze into Stilgar’s hand. Stilgar ran them through his fingers, fixed one around Jessica’s neck beneath her hood, fitted the other around Paul’s neck in the same way.

    “Now you wear the kerchief of the bakka,” he said. “If we become separated, you will be recognized as belonging to Stilgar’s sietch. We will talk of weapons another time.”

    He moved out through his band now, inspecting them, giving Paul’s Fremkit pack to one of his men to carry.

    Bakka, Jessica thought, recognizing the religious term: bakka–the weeper. She sensed how the symbolism of the kerchiefs united this band. Why should weeping unite them? she asked herself.

    Stilgar came to the young girl who had embarrassed Paul, said: “Chani, take the child-man under your wing. Keep him out of trouble.”

    Chani touched Paul’s arm. “Come along, child-man.”

    • Replies: @El Dato
    @El Dato

    I cannot unthink Chani getting up in the morning and checking her TikTok for news about the "Sandtrout Challenge" while forgetting all else.

    "Excellent, Pieter. Your "Arrakis Online" information network as suggested by Baron Facebook worked perfectly. Buying off the Guild for Starlink capacity was worth it. MWAHAHAHA!"

    Also for those interested in Duneology:

    https://www.muddycolors.com/2020/03/moebius-dune/

    Contains a link to all the scans of the artwork by Moebius.

    , @Pincher Martin
    @El Dato


    Haven’t seen the movie but Sean Young was a bit weird as hardscrabble knifing, hunting & working girl of 13 who would take a bead on Paul Atreides, probably smells like a tramp as has skin like leather. (Also, those people must have super special mind improvement techniques or their years are longer).
     
    The two toughest roles to fill in Dune, if you play them close to the book, are first Paul and then Chani. The other major roles in the book - Duke Leto, Lady Jessica, Idaho Duncan, Stilgar, Baron Harkonnen, etc. - are a piece of cake by comparison.

    The difficulty in casting Paul is obvious. You need someone who can appear both young and regal; inexperienced, yet a leader of strong men by the end of the film; tough enough to survive the deserts of Arrakis, but innocent of the entire planet's ways when he first arrives.

    Casting Chani is not as difficult as Paul's character, but she has some similar features. She is young, but already a killer when she first makes an appearance. She is not as naive as Paul, but her youth gives her some curiosity ("Tell me about the waters of your home world, Usul.") and trepidation (for Paul's fate, once they become lovers).

    These are not easy roles to fill. They work far better on the page, where time is of less importance and internal monologues can be helpful in showing a character's motivations and evolution, than on screen.

    Perhaps for that reason, I've never seen the two roles played well. Not in Villeneuve's film. Not in Lynch's film. Not even in the 2000 TV mini-series, which is my favorite screen adaptation of the book. And if you can't fill two of the most important roles in the story well, including what is easily the most important character of Dune (Paul), then how likely are you to make a good film?

  15. @R.G. Camara
    As I said in my comment on Trevor Lynch's review:

    Saw it, was bored by it, the colors and visuals were all muted, dark, and boring. I never read the books or saw other versions, so the story was alien to me. This reviewer is right, Zendaya was given prominence a lot in the dreams but she’s not even close to attractive enough to be some mystical It girl.

    Note to Hollywood: stop trying to make Zendaya a thing. She’s not going to be a thing. She’s best-friend-in-a-romcom or plain-jane-love-interest-in-an-indie-movie-for-an-ugly guy — and that’s if you can get past the blackness. She’s the worst thing in all the new Spiderman movies — not only for being dowdy, but also because she’s being a snarky bitch to Spiderman instead of the googly-eyed red-headed girl next door bombshell love interest he deserves.

    My friend, who has read the Dune books and loved them, was royally pissed off by the film. He even commented that the constant repetition of the image of the bull was out of place — a bull is only mentioned once in the novel and is not significant at all. Drove him nuts.

    Pass on this.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Mr. Anon, @Dave Pinsen, @Peter Akuleyev, @Mike Tre, @Paul Rise, @Anonymous

    she’s not even close to attractive enough to be some mystical It girl.

    Considering this is supposed to be a woman born and raised in a physically harsh environment without access to cosmetics or hairstylists, Zendaya is, if anything, probably too attractive. My recollection from the book was that Paul had a deep spiritual connection with Chani, she wasn’t supposed to be a supermodel. I always assumed that Princess Irulan was supposed to be more physically attractive than Chani (at least by 11th Millenium imperial standards).

    • Agree: El Dato, fish
    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    @Peter Akuleyev

    'I always assumed that Princess Irulan was supposed to be more physically attractive than Chani (at least by 11th Millenium imperial standards).'

    This could be amusing. Consider, for example, all the human cultures whose ideal woman was (and in some cases, still is) immensely fat.

    So, if you want the film to reflect a truly different time and place...

  16. @Joe S.Walker
    Somewhere past the halfway mark I began to feel that the combination of super-technology and feudalism was basically silly. We don't have House Disney and Duke Apple. (Imagine Mark Zuckerberg as Baron Facebook....)

    Likewise, in this world the nearest thing to the Bene Gesserit is the feminist movement. Need I say more?

    I found the film's gigantism quite tiring watched on TV. In a cinema I think it'd be nightmarish. But Leni Riefenstalh wouldn't have been envious. She didn't need CGI; whatever she wanted, she could stage it for real.

    Replies: @El Dato, @Rob

    the combination of super-technology and feudalism was basically silly

    “High tech” and “Feudalism” are orthogonal concepts. Most people in Dune (possibly in the empire) don’t have access to high tech at all, but apparently you can indeed service smuggler spaceships in the desert, kinda like the Millenium Falcon hidden under a rock.

    We don’t have House Disney and Duke Apple. (Imagine Mark Zuckerberg as Baron Facebook….)

    Soon. We haven’t gone through the coming resource crunch and Malthusian beatdown … yet. Give it a bit of time. “Baron Facebook commands your presence!” sounds impressive.

    Likewise, in this world the nearest thing to the Bene Gesserit is the feminist movement.

    Not at all. It’s an Illuminati-Sciency mashup run by ultra-rational woman who are in perfect control of themselves. “Feminism” is unfettered emotional crisis 24/7.

    • LOL: mc23
    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @El Dato


    “Feminism” is unfettered emotional crisis 24/7.
     
    Women in their teens: Yay feminism
    Women in their 20's: I'm a strong, independent woman. I don't need a man
    Women in their 30's: Where have all the good men gone?
    Women in their 40's: Kitty, kitty .....

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    , @Joe S.Walker
    @El Dato

    I'm sure most feminists would declare themselves ultra-rational with perfect self-control - or if they aren't it's some man's fault.

  17. Anon[179] • Disclaimer says:
    @Pincher Martin
    I wrote this in Trevor Lynch's thread:

    Villeneuve’s movie is beautiful, but the director drains so much of the drama out of several key scenes in Dune that I began to feel as if he was purposely trying to make an art film.

    First, there are too many dream sequences. Yes, Paul’s dreams are a major part of Herbert’s novel, but they don’t translate well to the screen. Villeneuve should have cut out half of them from the film. How many times did I need to see Chani’s face before, you know, actually seeing Chani?

    Second, the most dramatic early scenes in the novel Dune – the Gurney Halleck training session on Caladan; the hunter-seeker scene with Paul and Shadout Mapes; Duke Leto and Paul’s first experience with a sandworm devouring a spice mining vehicle; Paul and Jessica’s crash in the desert, their scramble to safety while being chased by a sandworm, which leads to their first meeting with Stilgar and Chani – are all underplayed dramatically.

    Third, the fight scenes are not very well done. The first fight between the Sardaukar and the Fremen, for example, should’ve been heavily choreographed and taken a good five minutes of screen time. We need to witness the ferocity of both, but also the superiority of the latter, for it will presage many of the battles to come. The Fremen hide in the sand and burst out to attack, which is a cool visual, but not much follows up on that.

    Fourth, some of the dialogue sounds tinny and inauthentic. Chani’s final “This is just the beginning” was soul-crushing in its contemporary feeling that seems to wink at the audience who might yearn for the sequel. I would’ve much preferred “Tell me about the waters of your home world, Usul.” And Chani’s opening exposition about her people being oppressed, which was echoed later by Dr Liet-Kynes, did not sound Fremen-like at all. Where were the warrior women who threw their babies at Sardaukars? The lines sounded more like they came from Frantz Fanon than from a Fremen.

    I did like some parts of the film. The use of the “Voice” was superb, the best visualization I’ve seen on film in showing how it might work. I also loved the hand signals. They were used to good effect in Lady Jessica’s meeting with Shadout Mapes. Stellan Skarsgard’s Baron Harkonnen looked and sounded perfect, much more dangerous and less clownish than the Kenneth McMillan performance in Lynch’s film or the gay turn of the character Ian McNeice delivers in the 2000 mini-series.

    But it wasn’t enough. Too many keys scenes were underdramatized, leaving me first bored and finally frustrated by what might have been.

    Replies: @Anon, @Romanian

    How many times did I need to see Chani’s face before, you know, actually seeing Chani?

    I suspect that it was driven as much by business reasons as artistic ones. The character is barely in the film but the actress is a big part of the marketing and her contract probably requires a set amount of screen time as well.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
    @Anon

    Well, the dream sequences don't give Chani that much more screen time. Maybe two minutes at the most. So if what you're saying is the case, the director could have easily extended the end of the film by five minutes with more interaction between Paul and Chani. It would've been a better film, too. The first encounter between Paul and Chani is not given enough attention in this movie.

    One of the dream sequences - more like a drug-induced hallucination - interrupts what should be one of the most exciting scenes in the movie. When a sandworm barrels toward on a spice-mining vehicle, Duke Leto, Paul, and others, who were watching above from a thopter, swoop down to save the men. When Paul gets out to help direct the rescue, the spice in the desert causes him to hallucinate a vision of the future. During his hallucination, he sees Chani's face. Again. (I think this is already the third time in the film he sees her.)

    Unfortunately, this spice-induced vision disrupts what should've been a pretty good scene of Paul's first encounter with a sandworm and its destructive powers.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  18. @El Dato
    @Mr. Anon

    Haven't seen the movie but Sean Young was a bit weird as hardscrabble knifing, hunting & working girl of 13 who would take a bead on Paul Atreides, probably smells like a tramp as has skin like leather. (Also, those people must have super special mind improvement techniques or their years are longer).

    Also directly related to Kynes how about that!

    The feel when Zendaya looks good in that role.

    Maybe one could take Ellie from "The Last of Us", hunger her out a bit and give her a stillsuit?


    "So be it," Jessica said. She released her hold on him, stepped aside in full view of the bank in the basin. This is the test-mashed, she thought. But Paul must know about them even if I die for his knowledge.

    In the waiting silence, Paul inched forward to get a better view of where his mother stood. As he moved, he heard heavy breathing, suddenly stilled, above him in the vertical crack of the rock, and sensed a faint shadow there outlined against the stars.
    Stilgar's voice came up from the basin: "You, up there! Stop hunting the boy. He'll come down presently."

    The voice of a young boy or a girl sounded from the darkness above Paul: "But, Stil, he can't be far from--"

    "I said leave him be, Chani! You spawn of a lizard!"

    There came a whispered imprecation from above Paul and a low voice: "Call me spawn of a lizard!" But the shadow pulled back out of view.

    Paul returned his attention to the basin, picking out the gray-shadowed movement of Stilgar beside his mother.

    "Come in, all of you," Stilgar called. He turned to Jessica. "And now I'll ask you how we may be certain you'll fulfill your half of our bargain? You're the one's lived with papers and empty contracts and such as--"
     

    The companion pressed two squares of gauze into Stilgar's hand. Stilgar ran them through his fingers, fixed one around Jessica's neck beneath her hood, fitted the other around Paul's neck in the same way.

    "Now you wear the kerchief of the bakka," he said. "If we become separated, you will be recognized as belonging to Stilgar's sietch. We will talk of weapons another time."

    He moved out through his band now, inspecting them, giving Paul's Fremkit pack to one of his men to carry.

    Bakka, Jessica thought, recognizing the religious term: bakka--the weeper. She sensed how the symbolism of the kerchiefs united this band. Why should weeping unite them? she asked herself.

    Stilgar came to the young girl who had embarrassed Paul, said: "Chani, take the child-man under your wing. Keep him out of trouble."

    Chani touched Paul's arm. "Come along, child-man."
     

    Replies: @El Dato, @Pincher Martin

    I cannot unthink Chani getting up in the morning and checking her TikTok for news about the “Sandtrout Challenge” while forgetting all else.

    “Excellent, Pieter. Your “Arrakis Online” information network as suggested by Baron Facebook worked perfectly. Buying off the Guild for Starlink capacity was worth it. MWAHAHAHA!”

    Also for those interested in Duneology:

    https://www.muddycolors.com/2020/03/moebius-dune/

    Contains a link to all the scans of the artwork by Moebius.

  19. @Dave Pinsen
    @Steve Sailer

    Zendaya is still sort of pretty when she's dolled up with professional hair & makeup, but desert messy doesn't suit her, and neither does proximity to Rebecca Ferguson.

    Maybe a better casting choice for Chani, if they had to make her mixed-race, would have been Hailee Steinfeld.

    https://www.hawtcelebs.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/hailee-steinfeld-at-buzzfeed-s-am-to-dm-in-new-york-11-01-2019-3.jpg

    Replies: @Franz, @S. Anonyia, @John Milton's Ghost, @guest007, @theMann, @Steve Sailer

    Maybe a better casting choice … would have been Hailee Steinfeld.

    Hailee looks good and can act.

    But she’d crush Timothée Chalamet with the first wrong move. He’s a squirt.

  20. Anonymous[668] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mr. Anon

    Of course, the real reason for all the arms control in Dune is that edged weapons are cool. As Churchill complained after the Great War, “War, which used to be cruel and magnificent, has now become cruel and squalid.”
     
    Funny. I remember that quote as: “War, which used to be magnificent and cruel, has now become cruel and squalid." Note the change in order. No offense to Steve or Churchill (Steve appears to be right on this), however I think it sounds better the way I remember it.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    When was war magnificent?

    I supposes riding horses is fun, but is there anything worse than having an arrow lodged inside you?

    War did get dreary with armies trained to serve in rifle battalions where men stood rigid as sitting ducks.
    And trench warfare in WWI did get squalid.

    But at least as sheer spectacle, what was more magnificent than WWII with advanced planes as sky horses. And Vietnam had air cavalry. And tank battles were awesome too.

    • Replies: @El Dato
    @Anonymous

    Churchill hard a hard-on for sea warfare against germans.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

    , @Ralph L
    @Anonymous

    Then the Winged Hussars arrived!

    , @Joe Stalin
    @Anonymous


    And Vietnam had air cavalry.
     
    The guys at Khe Sanh combat base experienced a sustained spectacle of aerial bombardment.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dE-FRuOnW_M

    Comment on YT:


    Aaron Erickson
    I went on one flight in Vietnam at night in a mohawk. They flew us many directions where we were lost and didn't know where we were. I was a camera man on this flight. The captain told me when he said take it I was to start taking pictures. Just a hand held trigger. Bullits were arking up at us, tracers look strange when coming at you. After a while I heard a strange noise and he yelled hit it! The whole world was exploding under us. We filmed it all then flew back to our compound via radio directions. We were maybe 3,000 feet up and there was a V of B52 above us at 30,000 feet i guess. We were in the center of their formation over 25,000 feet below them. It was the o ly time i went on an observation flight. JANUARY 1968. Something I will never forget. A B52 bombing at night is quite a sight. And being shot at with tracers from the ground was very strange because you could see how close they were getting to hitting us.

     

    Replies: @Anonymous

    , @Buffalo Joe
    @Anonymous

    SixSixEight, ah yes, war is awesome if you didn't just shit your pants when your foxhole mate's head landed in your lap and his brains were scattered in your face. War, what fun. My father, two of his brothers and three of my mother's brothers served in WWII. Never, ever shared a 'war story' with me or my cousins. Surviving combat is magnificent. Killing, not so much.

    Replies: @Alfa158

  21. Meh, I get all the science friction I need reading about vax-grift. The review and dissection of Dune? Lots of wasted brain power by otherwise thoughtful people looking for romance in all the wrong places. Y’all who are really obsessed with the chick, her intentions and looks would be better off reading Dear Penthouse Forums…

    Only re-makes and mulligans on old work seem to be getting done anymore, and done badly with heaping helpings of Woke horseshit. The movies really are dead, aren’t they?

    • Replies: @Pat Hannagan
    @Jim Christian

    Spot on.

    I bypass all the movie reviews, especially the Trevor Lynch stuff, but half-hearted started reading this to only run out of steam two thirds the way through through the promo.

    The events of the world right now are all the dystopian sci-fi novels of the 20th century come to life. Who has the need or desire to watch a fantasy film, isn't reality enough?

    I think what astounds me the most is the lack of urgency, or even feigned interest, by some of the finest minds on the internet. Here we have a deadset bonus gift of statistics in covid-19 for the statistically minded to feast upon, yet all we get are movie reviews?

    If one wants to get all film literate I'd like to discuss why the South Koreans are pumping out the best movies and serial TV at the moment. From Parasite, to Train to Busan, the brilliant Kingdom and now their latest in Squid Game. Some of the best examinations of modern life you'll find, far and away superior to Judeo-American dross. I'd hazard a guess and say it's because the South Koreans are still a people largely in control of their own ethnic destiny, whereas our movies are spawned from an alien race who hates us.

    They have Kia and Hyundai, a national sense of self based on their own ethnic image which they portray and examine in their art, we get re-makes and mulligans on old work done badly with heaping helpings of Woke horseshit.

    Replies: @fish, @AaronB, @Pixo, @Jim Christian, @anonymous coward, @Thoughts, @Chrisnonymous

    , @TWS
    @Jim Christian

    Quick, you forgot to sneer at sportsball. It's not too late to add an 'ok, boomer' either.

    Replies: @Jim Christian

  22. No matter how many silly speeches actresses give at awards ceremonies, most of today’s major directors, such as Villeneuve, the Coens, Nolan, Tarantino, Chazelle, Scorsese, Eastwood, Gibson, Linklater, Judge, Mangold, and both Andersons haven’t yet succumbed to Wokeness.

    Django Unchained.

    • Replies: @Unladen Swallow
    @Anonymous

    I agree that Django Unchained is a bad movie, however I don't really think it's very woke, there are plenty of n-words, much to the delight of black male fans of Tarantino and the chagrin of Spike Lee ( Who complained about Tarantino using them in Pulp Fiction years earlier ). Furthermore, the best performance in the movie is that Samuel L. Jackson, as Leonardo DiCarpio's character's chief house slave, and I think it is subtlely implied his lover, who also tortures Django after he kills DiCaprio's character. Jackson's character is really the one good thing about the movie.

  23. @R.G. Camara
    As I said in my comment on Trevor Lynch's review:

    Saw it, was bored by it, the colors and visuals were all muted, dark, and boring. I never read the books or saw other versions, so the story was alien to me. This reviewer is right, Zendaya was given prominence a lot in the dreams but she’s not even close to attractive enough to be some mystical It girl.

    Note to Hollywood: stop trying to make Zendaya a thing. She’s not going to be a thing. She’s best-friend-in-a-romcom or plain-jane-love-interest-in-an-indie-movie-for-an-ugly guy — and that’s if you can get past the blackness. She’s the worst thing in all the new Spiderman movies — not only for being dowdy, but also because she’s being a snarky bitch to Spiderman instead of the googly-eyed red-headed girl next door bombshell love interest he deserves.

    My friend, who has read the Dune books and loved them, was royally pissed off by the film. He even commented that the constant repetition of the image of the bull was out of place — a bull is only mentioned once in the novel and is not significant at all. Drove him nuts.

    Pass on this.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Mr. Anon, @Dave Pinsen, @Peter Akuleyev, @Mike Tre, @Paul Rise, @Anonymous

    Can those of us who enjoy sci fi even trust movie makers to give us an honest effort in telling the story as opposed to more mindless social justice engineering? The casting of this Zendaya creature is one part of the clear answer.

    • Replies: @Wilkey
    @Mike Tre


    Can those of us who enjoy sci fi even trust movie makers to give us an honest effort in telling the story as opposed to more mindless social justice engineering? The casting of this Zendaya creature is one part of the clear answer.
     
    I'm really annoyed by the casting in the Foundation series. Most of the actors they cast are awful and unattractive. They seem to have gone overboard with casting minorities simply because they're minorities. Leah Harvey, the "trans or "non-binary" or whatever black woman who plays Salvor Hardin, is quite possibly the worst lead on any show I've ever seen.

    AppleTV seems to have a much bigger obsession with "diverse" casting than pretty much every other streaming service. They even had to insert some unknown trans dude as an interviewee in a documentary on Charles Schulz (yes, the Peanuts guy), for no apparent reason. Up next they have a version of Macbeth with a black Macbeth and a black Macduff.

    But Dune is not on AppleTV, and the casting seems pretty good. They got diversity, but not without sacrificing quality. A few cast members are questionable, but none are terrible. Chalamet is ok, but still seems a bit too metrosexual for the role - I doubt he's ever even been camping. Casting Kynes as a black woman seems the most intentionally diverse of their choices, but she managed. I really liked Stephen Henderson, the almost albino-looking black actor they cast as mentat Thufir Hawat. Haven't seen enough of Zendaya to know how well she fits the role, but she hasn't ruined it yet. They weren't going to cast a supermodel or a pale Irish girl as a hardened native of a desert planet.

    But by far the best casting choice is Rebecca Ferguson as Lady Jessica. Lady Jessica has to fluctuate between times when she's extremely vulnerable and times when she's the strongest woman in the scene. She does that very convincingly, and she's luminous.

    Replies: @Alfa158, @Rob

  24. Denis shelled out for at least three different shades of grey.

  25. @Mr. Anon
    @R.G. Camara


    Note to Hollywood: stop trying to make Zendaya a thing. She’s not going to be a thing.*
     
    Aye. Chani in the 1984 David Lynch version of Dune was portrayed by Sean Young. It's impossible to improve on Sean Young.

    *By the way: like the reference to the always funny Honest Trailers.

    Replies: @El Dato, @Pericles

    Sean Young was, apart from her incredible looks, also pretty good at taking down various coworkers; I think she could have been a superior entertainment journalist or columnist of the old school. But in the end she lacked the judgement to see her position in Hollywood clearly and leave certain people alone, and was after a hostile PR campaign ultimately dismissed as a madwoman and a flake.

    • Replies: @Simon
    @Pericles

    I was lucky enough to watch a few scenes of David Lynch’s Dune being filmed down in Mexico City, and recall that Young (really gorgeous, I agree, though not with that stillsuit gear up her nose) behaved a bit like a schoolgirl verging on a discipline problem, to Lynch’s obvious annoyance. At one point, after a take involving a huge crowd scene, everyone stayed patiently in costume except her. She immediately tore open the top of her stillsuit, raised her arms, and twisted back and forth in an attention-seeking way, as if overcome with heat. (Well, I’m sure that outfit really was pretty warm — but everyone else remained immobile.) Lynch had to say something like “We’re all waiting for you, Sean,” and indeed everyone had to wait while she zipped up her costume again, before he could do the next take.

    Replies: @Pericles

  26. In the book, the emperor was worried about Duke Leto’s increasing popularity and that Leto’s troops were rivaling the quality of his own imperial army. The change of fief to Arrakis was a devilish plot reluctantly cooked up with Baron Harkonnen to trap and kill Leto. It is a magnificent novel, strangely rejected by several publishers. Not sure how much Star Wars borrows from it, though.

  27. @Steve Sailer
    @R.G. Camara

    The bull that killed Duke Leto's bullfighter/duke father is mentioned more than once in the book. Lady Jessica is weirded out by it.

    This Zendaya girl was very pretty a few years ago in the low-brow "Greatest Showman" biopic about P.T. Barnum.

    Replies: @The Germ Theory of Disease, @Dave Pinsen, @Mike Tre, @R.G. Camara

    Zendaya is a like another Jada Pinkett. She thinks Perma-bitch face/attitude is enough to be a good actor, when in fact she is not pretty enough to make up for her bland and flat screen presence.

    • Replies: @Mina Horowitz
    @Mike Tre

    Zendaya is eons prettier than Will Smith's beard. There's a reason Jada never amounted to much in film whereas Zendaya is getting A list lead roles like this one (she will be a huge focus in the sequel and film #3).

    I do think she's pretty enough to convince us that Chalamet could fall in love with her, but also swarthy and earthy-looking enough that she doesn't seem out of place among a barbaric desert tribe.

    https://www.essence.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Zendaya-IG4-e1557852651906.png

    She's like a hotter version of Samantha Mumba in The Time Machine, another white-guy-from-another-world/time-falls-in-love-with-hot-brown-chick sci-fi film

    Also, funnily enough, despite being the biggest case of blackwashing casting in the film, she really does not look black at all. You could tell me she's filipina, middle eastern, latina, I'd believe you. She's like an avatar for a generic exotic girl, which is basically her character in the book.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin, @The Germ Theory of Disease, @Twinkie

  28. @El Dato
    @Joe S.Walker


    the combination of super-technology and feudalism was basically silly
     
    "High tech" and "Feudalism" are orthogonal concepts. Most people in Dune (possibly in the empire) don't have access to high tech at all, but apparently you can indeed service smuggler spaceships in the desert, kinda like the Millenium Falcon hidden under a rock.

    We don’t have House Disney and Duke Apple. (Imagine Mark Zuckerberg as Baron Facebook….)
     
    Soon. We haven't gone through the coming resource crunch and Malthusian beatdown ... yet. Give it a bit of time. "Baron Facebook commands your presence!" sounds impressive.

    Likewise, in this world the nearest thing to the Bene Gesserit is the feminist movement.
     
    Not at all. It's an Illuminati-Sciency mashup run by ultra-rational woman who are in perfect control of themselves. "Feminism" is unfettered emotional crisis 24/7.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Joe S.Walker

    “Feminism” is unfettered emotional crisis 24/7.

    Women in their teens: Yay feminism
    Women in their 20’s: I’m a strong, independent woman. I don’t need a man
    Women in their 30’s: Where have all the good men gone?
    Women in their 40’s: Kitty, kitty …..

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @Bardon Kaldian

    And, I forgot... (ETS. Enfermedades de Transmisión Sexual (Spanish: Sexually Transmitted Diseases, aka: STD) ETS.)

    https://cms.qz.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/screen-shot-2016-10-18-at-12-37-08-pm.png?quality=75&strip=all&w=620&h=347&crop=1

  29. There’s no accounting for taste. Skimming through as a preview, I see the bleak, dark, muted colors and scenes I was afraid of. And the flat, depressed, monotone speech patterns of people who look like they aren’t responding to electroshock therapy.

    Do these characters even care if they live?

    My hunch is that it appeals to guys who like to do deep, lonely dives into mountains of complex data that lack meaning to most people. And the world needs such people. Although, I might suggest Prozac.

    Star Wars may have borrowed from it, but at least Lucas made his first two exciting.

    • Agree: Catdog
    • LOL: El Dato
    • Replies: @Mina Horowitz
    @Loyalty Over IQ Worship


    My hunch is that it appeals to guys who like to do deep, lonely dives into mountains of complex data that lack meaning to most people.
     
    I mean that's basically the book series but instead of data it's religious philosophical ramblings. It's very much turbo autist white guy catnip.
  30. Was looking forward to seeing it, but after reading the reviews I’m not so sure. General audiences loved it, fans of the book hated it, and the professional reviewers were noncommittal. I’m a fan of the book, so chances are that I will find fault with it. Think I will wait until I can see it cheap.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @G. Poulin

    I read the novel last month and was surprised by how close the movie stuck to it.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @pyrrhus

  31. @Jim Christian
    Meh, I get all the science friction I need reading about vax-grift. The review and dissection of Dune? Lots of wasted brain power by otherwise thoughtful people looking for romance in all the wrong places. Y'all who are really obsessed with the chick, her intentions and looks would be better off reading Dear Penthouse Forums...

    Only re-makes and mulligans on old work seem to be getting done anymore, and done badly with heaping helpings of Woke horseshit. The movies really are dead, aren't they?

    Replies: @Pat Hannagan, @TWS

    Spot on.

    I bypass all the movie reviews, especially the Trevor Lynch stuff, but half-hearted started reading this to only run out of steam two thirds the way through through the promo.

    The events of the world right now are all the dystopian sci-fi novels of the 20th century come to life. Who has the need or desire to watch a fantasy film, isn’t reality enough?

    I think what astounds me the most is the lack of urgency, or even feigned interest, by some of the finest minds on the internet. Here we have a deadset bonus gift of statistics in covid-19 for the statistically minded to feast upon, yet all we get are movie reviews?

    If one wants to get all film literate I’d like to discuss why the South Koreans are pumping out the best movies and serial TV at the moment. From Parasite, to Train to Busan, the brilliant Kingdom and now their latest in Squid Game. Some of the best examinations of modern life you’ll find, far and away superior to Judeo-American dross. I’d hazard a guess and say it’s because the South Koreans are still a people largely in control of their own ethnic destiny, whereas our movies are spawned from an alien race who hates us.

    They have Kia and Hyundai, a national sense of self based on their own ethnic image which they portray and examine in their art, we get re-makes and mulligans on old work done badly with heaping helpings of Woke horseshit.

    • Replies: @fish
    @Pat Hannagan

    I thought you had been reported dead?

    , @AaronB
    @Pat Hannagan

    I agree with you that South Korea is making superior television these days.

    But what they are producing hardly points to a healthy society - something has clearly gone very, very wrong in Korea that they are making Squid Games and Parasite and many similar things.

    Incidentally, these shows are huge in the US - indicating there is something wrong across the industrialized world.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon

    , @Pixo
    @Pat Hannagan

    South Koreans are the smartest ethnic group in the world next to Ashkenazi Jews. And they have an crazy school calendar and after school cram school culture to max out their genotype.

    They may also have the largest brains physically, which is correlated with IQ.

    Too bad they have a current TFR of 0.84, and that is counting those born to Korean men and SE Asian mail order brides (~8% of marriages and probably more like 12% of births).

    The next generation of pure S. Koreans will be 60% less than the size of the current one.

    https://m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.asp?newsIdx=317718

    , @Jim Christian
    @Pat Hannagan

    SK's are producing the best movies? I didn't mean to delude, just ask why the focus on one chick. SKs? Who watches their shit, or even reviews it? What's S. Korea got, K-Pop? Kia? Hyundai? Shittiest cars on the planet. SKs? They could be immolated throughout Seoul with Nork artillery. What's SK to do but hurl Hyundai and Kia? And K-Pop?

    , @anonymous coward
    @Pat Hannagan


    Here we have a deadset bonus gift of statistics in covid-19 for the statistically minded to feast upon
     
    Don't go there. I've seen professional antisemites and decades-long Hitler fanboys suddenly get completely banned from the Internet for doubting vaxx efficacy.

    This is serious business and you're playing with real fire now.
    , @Thoughts
    @Pat Hannagan

    Has Unz banned Steve from talking about anything related to Covid?

    Or Steve got the vaccine and is sitting in his closet office saying 'Mandates are good, I got it and I'm fine...I like Tyranny. More Tyranny! *eats pistachios*'

    There was some woke s**t in Squid Games...the whole 'People are Equal Here' and The Ali Character

    The People are Equal Here speech the Front Man gave made me vomit all over my living room floor, I even thought "Oh God, Not the Koreans Too!"

    The answer is easy...

    To be a writer in Hollywood you have to be accepted by the Jews which means you have to be a limp wristed Ninny

    Add in the fact that American Christians unwittingly with their "No harsh honest talk allowed, we are all nice little sycophants" give more power to the Jews and their Gatekeeping

    Then you just don't get fun personalities getting into high up spots in life

    , @Chrisnonymous
    @Pat Hannagan


    The events of the world right now are all the dystopian sci-fi novels of the 20th century come to life.
     
    I read Brave New World recently and then The Abolition of Man. Creepily, The Abolition of Man pretty much describes the encroachment of the world of Brave New World.

    I think this kind of reading can make you think better about current events. Escapism in the trenches is not useful.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist

  32. Timothée Chamalet may be the worst thing to have happened to Hollywood in recent memory.

    • Replies: @Hapalong Cassidy
    @Percival

    I haven’t seen Dune yet, but I was unimpressed with Chalamet in the Netflix take on “Henry V” (I can’t even remember the title it was so bad). Edward Pattinson (Twilight, the upcoming Batman film) was good as the Dauphin, however. He’d probably make a good Feyd-Rautha, assuming they add that character in the sequel. Given that the character was traditionally played by a poplar musician (Mick Jagger in the unfilmed Jodorowsky version and most memorably, Sting in the 1984 version), I’ve also heard that Harry Styles is being considered.

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Percival


    Timothée Chamalet may be the worst thing to have happened to Hollywood in recent memory.
     
    Like Viggo Mortensen, he was born here. At least Viggo, like Jorma Kaukonen, has the excuse of being a junior to a foreign father. (Jorma Sr was born in the UP, but that's still fairly foreign.)

    Jorma (Jr) and Timothée had Jewish mothers. Viggo's grandparents were from four different countries, Denmark, Norway, the US, and Canada. (The Gyllenhaals and Scarlett Johansson also have Nordic fathers and Jewish mothers and, notably, American first names.) Viggo and Timothée spent much of their youths abroad.

    Native Americans stuck with foreign first names used to go into serious fields-- Thorstein Veblen, Claire Chennault, Minoru Yamasaki. Yo-yo Ma, technically a native of Paris, too. It's like they had to prove themselves. Now, it's pop culture.

    Timothée, like Scarlett and Anderson Cooper, is a child of Manhattan. So was my great-grandmother, but things have certainly changed since 1890.
  33. My view of Dune has always been like a free loan: zero interest.

    With all the fascinating things to read and see in this world, a lifetime is not long enough, so why waste time with Dune?

    Still, it is interesting to compare and contrast Steve Sailer’s review with Trevor Lynch’s published here on the same day.

    It is curious, for example, that Sailer does not appear to care much about how the imaginary world of Dune is European and Middle Eastern, whereas Lynch is all over it. It would seem the implications are there, as Lynch at least touches upon. Furthermore, the effort to shoehorn non-White actors into this is obvious, so why not discuss it?

    • Replies: @El Dato
    @Buzz Mohawk


    With all the fascinating things to read and see in this world, a lifetime is not long enough
     
    In the real world, between two things there is always another thing.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

    , @Wilkey
    @Buzz Mohawk


    It is curious, for example, that Sailer does not appear to care much about how the imaginary world of Dune is European and Middle Eastern, whereas Lynch is all over it. It would seem the implications are there, as Lynch at least touches upon.
     
    To be fair, the parallels between the Dune universe and current and historical events on Earth seem almost a little too obvious. Herbert didn't really try all that hard to hide them. Caladan (=Caledonia=Scotland) is a stand-in for the gentler colonial powers, like Great Britain. They even played the Atreides army off the ship with bagpipes.. The Harkonnen are more like the Belgians. The Fremen are, in turn, either space Muslims or space Jews (in the books they seem a bit of an amalgam), and Paul is a cross between T.E. Lawrence and Jesus. And, of course, the spice is some super awesome combination of oil and every great hallucinogen known to man.

    Replies: @SunBakedSuburb, @Steve Sailer

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Buzz Mohawk


    My view of Dune has always been like a free loan: zero interest.

    With all the fascinating things to read and see in this world, a lifetime is not long enough, so why waste time with Dune?
     

    How much of "science" fiction is just sociological fiction, or political fantasy? Is actual science involved?

    Flatland is an example in which science-- mathematics-- is central. Some of Twilight Zone and One Step Beyond could qualify as SF as well, though the latter claimed to be based on true stories. Star Wars is just a medieval romance, or even horse opera, transferred to space.

    Replies: @El Dato, @Buzz Mohawk, @R.G. Camara

    , @Pincher Martin
    @Buzz Mohawk

    So you don't have time to read the novel Dune or see the movie Dune, because there are too many other excellent things out there to read and see, but you have time to read two reviews of the latest Dune movie?

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @Pixo

  34. @R.G. Camara
    As I said in my comment on Trevor Lynch's review:

    Saw it, was bored by it, the colors and visuals were all muted, dark, and boring. I never read the books or saw other versions, so the story was alien to me. This reviewer is right, Zendaya was given prominence a lot in the dreams but she’s not even close to attractive enough to be some mystical It girl.

    Note to Hollywood: stop trying to make Zendaya a thing. She’s not going to be a thing. She’s best-friend-in-a-romcom or plain-jane-love-interest-in-an-indie-movie-for-an-ugly guy — and that’s if you can get past the blackness. She’s the worst thing in all the new Spiderman movies — not only for being dowdy, but also because she’s being a snarky bitch to Spiderman instead of the googly-eyed red-headed girl next door bombshell love interest he deserves.

    My friend, who has read the Dune books and loved them, was royally pissed off by the film. He even commented that the constant repetition of the image of the bull was out of place — a bull is only mentioned once in the novel and is not significant at all. Drove him nuts.

    Pass on this.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Mr. Anon, @Dave Pinsen, @Peter Akuleyev, @Mike Tre, @Paul Rise, @Anonymous

    Pretty obvious that this world is one where the Taliban wins, probably mid 22nd century or so. Sounds about right.

  35. That’s a problem because the Dune series is Herbert’s Nixonite warning against charismatic JFK-like leaders, but Villeneuve doesn’t elicit much star power from Chalamet.

    That would be impossible since Chalamet is just a Justin Trudeau character, incapable of embodying either Nixon or JFK just empty vapid rich boyness.

    Chalamet is well-served by a stoic profile of Paul in Dune. He can live off his perfume ad pauses and poses. Anything approaching his true character and presence is concealed making something as intensely male-orientated as Dune palatable for it’s core audience. The harsh angles on his face becoming just another harsh angled surface for the director to shoot.

    The pandemic has also been good for the film in terms of publicity (Though it seems to have sunk it financially) since there is less pressure for Chalamet to go around giving interviews as himself.

  36. @Buzz Mohawk
    My view of Dune has always been like a free loan: zero interest.

    With all the fascinating things to read and see in this world, a lifetime is not long enough, so why waste time with Dune?

    Still, it is interesting to compare and contrast Steve Sailer's review with Trevor Lynch's published here on the same day.

    It is curious, for example, that Sailer does not appear to care much about how the imaginary world of Dune is European and Middle Eastern, whereas Lynch is all over it. It would seem the implications are there, as Lynch at least touches upon. Furthermore, the effort to shoehorn non-White actors into this is obvious, so why not discuss it?

    Replies: @El Dato, @Wilkey, @Reg Cæsar, @Pincher Martin

    With all the fascinating things to read and see in this world, a lifetime is not long enough

    In the real world, between two things there is always another thing.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @El Dato


    In the real world, between two things there is always another thing.
     
    That is reality, as with real numbers :)


    https://www.onlinemathlearning.com/image-files/real-numbers-gre_clip_image002_0000.gif


    Not sure where Dune fits.
  37. @Anonymous
    @Mr. Anon

    When was war magnificent?

    I supposes riding horses is fun, but is there anything worse than having an arrow lodged inside you?

    War did get dreary with armies trained to serve in rifle battalions where men stood rigid as sitting ducks.
    And trench warfare in WWI did get squalid.

    But at least as sheer spectacle, what was more magnificent than WWII with advanced planes as sky horses. And Vietnam had air cavalry. And tank battles were awesome too.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2C7lFUG8pw0

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbR2JzMn2E

    Replies: @El Dato, @Ralph L, @Joe Stalin, @Buffalo Joe

    Churchill hard a hard-on for sea warfare against germans.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @El Dato

    El Dato, and the German U-boats almost sank England before the USA came along to help.

    Replies: @Philip Owen

  38. @G. Poulin
    Was looking forward to seeing it, but after reading the reviews I'm not so sure. General audiences loved it, fans of the book hated it, and the professional reviewers were noncommittal. I'm a fan of the book, so chances are that I will find fault with it. Think I will wait until I can see it cheap.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    I read the novel last month and was surprised by how close the movie stuck to it.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @Steve Sailer

    It's nice to know you're doing the work so we don't have to. Thanks.

    , @pyrrhus
    @Steve Sailer

    Yes, very closely indeed....I would have liked to see them improve the implausible Harkonen takeover/treacherous doctor lets down shields section a little...

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  39. @Joe S.Walker
    Somewhere past the halfway mark I began to feel that the combination of super-technology and feudalism was basically silly. We don't have House Disney and Duke Apple. (Imagine Mark Zuckerberg as Baron Facebook....)

    Likewise, in this world the nearest thing to the Bene Gesserit is the feminist movement. Need I say more?

    I found the film's gigantism quite tiring watched on TV. In a cinema I think it'd be nightmarish. But Leni Riefenstalh wouldn't have been envious. She didn't need CGI; whatever she wanted, she could stage it for real.

    Replies: @El Dato, @Rob

    Is the mix of super science and feudalism all that unbelievable? Part of the reason we live in a tumultuous social world is that tech is both new and ever-changing.

    Will it be ever-changing forever? Eventually, though it might take another few hundred years, everything will be optimally teched-out as far as any people’s biology allows. Already, broad meritocratic classes with little mixing are forming in the west. The only reasons meritocracy triumphed in Europe were American idealism, Soviet communism, and fear of soviet communism. The Soviets imploded. America is being swamped, and not poised for even another century. Will democracy be so popular when its standard-bearer has imploded?

    Plus, the Butlerian Jihad, the end of “thinking machines” was a religious revolution beyond even Islam. Civilization ossified in the whatever-century in the universe just like it ossified in the 6th (or whatever) century in the Arab world.

    Lastly, we see very little of Imperial society, just a desert backwater, two houses of the Imperial aristocracy, and the Emperor’s household. Maybe on Caladan, everyone whose last name is not Atreides takes IQ, aptitude, and interest tests at the end of school for sorting into economic roles.

    Not to mention, the Dune Universe is essentially, “long, long ago, in a galaxy far far away.” It’s not meant to be realistic. It is not meant to be prescriptivist, either. Idealist? No, not that.

    It exists to tell a story.

    If this is not giving too much away, how did they handle Chani being Liet-Kynes’ daughter? What with Liet-Kynes being a black woman. I always took that as Paul fell in love with the Fremen woman closest to his in social class. He did not fall in love with a backwater (well, not water) bumpkin. Or is she only the Imperial Planetologist’s daughter in the Scify miniseries? I have not seen the new movie, but that was the best Dune of the two.

    • Replies: @Inquiring Mind
    @Rob

    " everyone whose last name is not Atreides takes IQ, aptitude, and interest tests at the end of school for sorting into economic roles."

    The National Lampoon satire Doon certainly played up that angle. The novel, however, describes a rigid caste system called Faufrelucheshttps://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Faufreluches, intended to "minimise alienation of individuals or minorities by providing for everyone" summarized as "a place for every man and every man in his place."

    The meritocratic sorting process was reserved for the "high born" such as Paul Atriedes -- think of him being "tested" with his hand in a nerve-induction pain box and a Reverend Mother holding a poisoned needle against his neck lest he flinch. It appears that anyone not born into nobility didn't have to worry about such things.

    Replies: @Rob

  40. Off topic:

    Bruce Springsteen boycotted North Carolina because of a law that prevented men who pretended they were women…from using the women’s bathroom…

    Two weeks ago, a teenage male pretending to be a female used the high schools female bathroom and raped two female students…..One of the fathers of these teenage girls complained at a school board meeting and was pr0mptly arrested….

    So like…who goes to Bruce Springsteen Concerts? And why was Bruce Springsteen making out with a sweaty large negro male in every concert on stage?

    Think about it….

  41. The second half has not been publicly greenlit, which probably reflects studio uncertainty about whether theatrical releases are financially viable at all anymore.

    As of yesterday, Dune: Part Two is greenlit:


    [MORE]

  42. @Anonymous
    No matter how many silly speeches actresses give at awards ceremonies, most of today’s major directors, such as Villeneuve, the Coens, Nolan, Tarantino, Chazelle, Scorsese, Eastwood, Gibson, Linklater, Judge, Mangold, and both Andersons haven’t yet succumbed to Wokeness.

    Django Unchained.

    Replies: @Unladen Swallow

    I agree that Django Unchained is a bad movie, however I don’t really think it’s very woke, there are plenty of n-words, much to the delight of black male fans of Tarantino and the chagrin of Spike Lee ( Who complained about Tarantino using them in Pulp Fiction years earlier ). Furthermore, the best performance in the movie is that Samuel L. Jackson, as Leonardo DiCarpio’s character’s chief house slave, and I think it is subtlely implied his lover, who also tortures Django after he kills DiCaprio’s character. Jackson’s character is really the one good thing about the movie.

  43. @Dave Pinsen
    @Steve Sailer

    Zendaya is still sort of pretty when she's dolled up with professional hair & makeup, but desert messy doesn't suit her, and neither does proximity to Rebecca Ferguson.

    Maybe a better casting choice for Chani, if they had to make her mixed-race, would have been Hailee Steinfeld.

    https://www.hawtcelebs.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/hailee-steinfeld-at-buzzfeed-s-am-to-dm-in-new-york-11-01-2019-3.jpg

    Replies: @Franz, @S. Anonyia, @John Milton's Ghost, @guest007, @theMann, @Steve Sailer

    This woman looks like some kind of Pacific Islander mix with a lot of plastic surgery, I cannot picture her in a desert. Zendaya at least looks vaguely Moroccan.

    Would have been best to cast a Middle Eastern actress, though.

  44. @Percival
    Timothée Chamalet may be the worst thing to have happened to Hollywood in recent memory.

    Replies: @Hapalong Cassidy, @Reg Cæsar

    I haven’t seen Dune yet, but I was unimpressed with Chalamet in the Netflix take on “Henry V” (I can’t even remember the title it was so bad). Edward Pattinson (Twilight, the upcoming Batman film) was good as the Dauphin, however. He’d probably make a good Feyd-Rautha, assuming they add that character in the sequel. Given that the character was traditionally played by a poplar musician (Mick Jagger in the unfilmed Jodorowsky version and most memorably, Sting in the 1984 version), I’ve also heard that Harry Styles is being considered.

  45. @El Dato
    @Buzz Mohawk


    With all the fascinating things to read and see in this world, a lifetime is not long enough
     
    In the real world, between two things there is always another thing.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

    In the real world, between two things there is always another thing.

    That is reality, as with real numbers 🙂

    Not sure where Dune fits.

  46. As Churchill complained after the Great War, “War, which used to be cruel and magnificent, has now become cruel and squalid.”

    Churchill and Bomber Command were 100% responsible for that.

    You’re impervious to facts on wwii, set in your cliches and Churchill quotes you drag out every time you justify yet another elite inspired biopic beatdown of the general populace.

    Internet discourse would be immeasurably improved were it denied wwii analogies and quotes. It would have to rely on intellect, reasoning and introspection.

  47. @Steve Sailer
    @G. Poulin

    I read the novel last month and was surprised by how close the movie stuck to it.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @pyrrhus

    It’s nice to know you’re doing the work so we don’t have to. Thanks.

  48. Anon[345] • Disclaimer says:

    There are a lot of people allegedly familiar with the source material on this thread that either are lying, aren’t very close readers, or they are dim.

    The movie was as close to the source material as it could be. Its faults lie largely in an inability to fit everything in: The conspiracy story about how Jessica was suspected to be a traitor, for example, would have provided much more character context to all of them. But there just wasn’t room for it. As such the arc of Yueh’s betrayal doesn’t carry as much weight as it should have.

    But the casting? Aside from the Kynes swap– about which I was a little annoyed, but it turns out it mostly doesn’t matter– everyone else is fine. Chalemet is slight and wet behind the ears? He’s supposed to be. Chani and other Fremen are dark-skinned? These are people that live in a harsh desert, and Herbert certainly implied they were at least dusky with all the Turkish and Arabic references.

    And the biggest misfire is at the top of the thread: An alleged fan said the bull was annoying? That fan is either bad at reading, or a moron. The bull is very important, and the exact sort of thing a less faithful director would miss.

    Contra what some people are saying here, fans of the book actually adore the movie. Maybe some weird fans in personal circles that think Sean Freaking Young makes a good desert rat are disappointed. But most fans I know have trouble imagining how the film could have been done better given Hollywood constraints.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Anon

    Well said.

    , @Pericles
    @Anon


    Sean Freaking Young makes a good desert rat

     

    https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2021/03/23/01/40811104-0-image-a-121_1616463882860.jpg

    Honestly doesn't look that miscast to me.

    (Image taken from article where she 'calls out' Warren Beatty, so Sean's still at it, lol.)
    , @Twinkie
    @Anon

    Granted, I only read Dune about ten times in my teen years (I’m in my 50s now), but, in the book, did Paul go about calling Leto “Dad…”? Did Leto pat Paul on the back with “Yeah, I wanted to be a flyboy when I was younger against grandpa’s wishes too - even if you don’t amount to anything, I still love you as my son!” in the book? Did Jessica - other than when she realized her beloved Leto was dead - go around weeping hysterically any time she was concerned about her son in the book?

    The original Dune series is my favorite, especially the second and third books. My main problem with this movie isn’t dusky people casting or any such nonsense. It’s that the script is shallow and the acting is subpar, bordering on silly, and neither captures the philosophical subtleties* of the source material or the grand operatic qualities of the characters.

    *Where are the wheels within the wheels? Where are the distinctions between “an animal trick… and a human kind of a trick?” Where is the idea that love and revenge are such powerful motivators that they even overcome the Suk imperial conditioning against taking lives and betrayal?

    My problem is that this movie isn’t Frank Herbert’s Dune - it’s Brian Herbert’s Dune. And not even the glossy production value can overcome the difference.

    Replies: @Anon

  49. This is a movie I’ll make sure to miss, like 99.9% of
    what Hollywood puts out these days

  50. Seriously, Ron Unz should hire commenter “Priss Factor” to do movie reviews, he’s the only really good one around here, someone who for all his verbosity at least writes interesting and insightful things. Plus, he knows a lot about movies, or watches a lot of movies at any rate.

    Sorry to say, but both Trevor Lynch and Steve Sailer appear to have terrible taste in movies, and a midwit’s understanding of the medium’s history, technique, etc.

    I haven’t seen Dune, nor will, but Villeneuve is a mediocre, unoriginal director, being promoted by Hollyweird for who knows what reasons.

    2049 was a borefest, and it didn’t even look nice. This one looks even worse, and it’s even longer. Ans it’s in two (or three?) parts.

  51. Steve, thanks for reviewing new movies so I don’t have to watch them. You’d have to pay me pay 200 bucks to watch any movie made in the last two decades.

  52. @Bardon Kaldian
    @El Dato


    “Feminism” is unfettered emotional crisis 24/7.
     
    Women in their teens: Yay feminism
    Women in their 20's: I'm a strong, independent woman. I don't need a man
    Women in their 30's: Where have all the good men gone?
    Women in their 40's: Kitty, kitty .....

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    And, I forgot… (ETS. Enfermedades de Transmisión Sexual (Spanish: Sexually Transmitted Diseases, aka: STD) ETS.)

  53. The only reason why Churchill thought war used to be magnificent is because they wore fancier uniforms in the 1800s. Once the uniforms became ugly, war became squalid.

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    @Anon

    If you read Storm of Steel, you can see that Churchill was not the only man to have thought war magnificent. In fact, there are quite a few quotes like this floatong around from pre-modern times. I think the main point is that Churchill got face to face with his opponents but was never injured. Chimpanzees love attacking but avoid getting hurt rather than pressing an attack. Men probably are the same and experience pre-modern war as a thrill if they win.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @mc23

  54. @Anonymous
    @Mr. Anon

    When was war magnificent?

    I supposes riding horses is fun, but is there anything worse than having an arrow lodged inside you?

    War did get dreary with armies trained to serve in rifle battalions where men stood rigid as sitting ducks.
    And trench warfare in WWI did get squalid.

    But at least as sheer spectacle, what was more magnificent than WWII with advanced planes as sky horses. And Vietnam had air cavalry. And tank battles were awesome too.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2C7lFUG8pw0

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbR2JzMn2E

    Replies: @El Dato, @Ralph L, @Joe Stalin, @Buffalo Joe

    Then the Winged Hussars arrived!

  55. @Jim Christian
    Meh, I get all the science friction I need reading about vax-grift. The review and dissection of Dune? Lots of wasted brain power by otherwise thoughtful people looking for romance in all the wrong places. Y'all who are really obsessed with the chick, her intentions and looks would be better off reading Dear Penthouse Forums...

    Only re-makes and mulligans on old work seem to be getting done anymore, and done badly with heaping helpings of Woke horseshit. The movies really are dead, aren't they?

    Replies: @Pat Hannagan, @TWS

    Quick, you forgot to sneer at sportsball. It’s not too late to add an ‘ok, boomer’ either.

    • Replies: @Jim Christian
    @TWS

    Sure thing, millennial.

  56. The two best features about this movie:
    The ornithopters are cool.
    The clever lettering in the title that uses the same character turned to four orientations.

    The two reasons that the SciFy miniseries is better than this version:
    Chani’s ta-tas in the miniseries.

    • Replies: @The Germ Theory of Disease
    @Alfa158

    "The clever lettering in the title that uses the same character turned to four orientations."

    Clever, yes, but if you're feeling uncharitable, it can be read as "DUNCE".

    Now that would be a funny mashup: Ignatius Reilly as the Quisatz Haderach.

    Replies: @Alfa158

  57. @Rob
    @Joe S.Walker

    Is the mix of super science and feudalism all that unbelievable? Part of the reason we live in a tumultuous social world is that tech is both new and ever-changing.

    Will it be ever-changing forever? Eventually, though it might take another few hundred years, everything will be optimally teched-out as far as any people’s biology allows. Already, broad meritocratic classes with little mixing are forming in the west. The only reasons meritocracy triumphed in Europe were American idealism, Soviet communism, and fear of soviet communism. The Soviets imploded. America is being swamped, and not poised for even another century. Will democracy be so popular when its standard-bearer has imploded?

    Plus, the Butlerian Jihad, the end of “thinking machines” was a religious revolution beyond even Islam. Civilization ossified in the whatever-century in the universe just like it ossified in the 6th (or whatever) century in the Arab world.

    Lastly, we see very little of Imperial society, just a desert backwater, two houses of the Imperial aristocracy, and the Emperor’s household. Maybe on Caladan, everyone whose last name is not Atreides takes IQ, aptitude, and interest tests at the end of school for sorting into economic roles.

    Not to mention, the Dune Universe is essentially, “long, long ago, in a galaxy far far away.” It’s not meant to be realistic. It is not meant to be prescriptivist, either. Idealist? No, not that.

    It exists to tell a story.

    If this is not giving too much away, how did they handle Chani being Liet-Kynes’ daughter? What with Liet-Kynes being a black woman. I always took that as Paul fell in love with the Fremen woman closest to his in social class. He did not fall in love with a backwater (well, not water) bumpkin. Or is she only the Imperial Planetologist’s daughter in the Scify miniseries? I have not seen the new movie, but that was the best Dune of the two.

    Replies: @Inquiring Mind

    ” everyone whose last name is not Atreides takes IQ, aptitude, and interest tests at the end of school for sorting into economic roles.”

    The National Lampoon satire Doon certainly played up that angle. The novel, however, describes a rigid caste system called Faufrelucheshttps://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Faufreluches, intended to “minimise alienation of individuals or minorities by providing for everyone” summarized as “a place for every man and every man in his place.”

    The meritocratic sorting process was reserved for the “high born” such as Paul Atriedes — think of him being “tested” with his hand in a nerve-induction pain box and a Reverend Mother holding a poisoned needle against his neck lest he flinch. It appears that anyone not born into nobility didn’t have to worry about such things.

    • Replies: @Rob
    @Inquiring Mind

    On the faufaluches, who knows, maybe they did select people into their faufaluche by IQ, aptitude, and interests. Repeat this, or in a healthy society, selection and meritocracy within each caste will make the next generation more suited to their role. Meritocracy not necessarily on IQ, unskilled labor might be selected for strength, endurance, and not giving lip to da boss.

    Is it clear from the books that the caste system is like medieval Europe or like India? In Europe, there were three (four including merchants) layers of society. If Dune castes like India, then there would be tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of castes. there are thousands of Indian jatis, they are endogamous and tend to specialize in certain occupations — there are the four(?) castes in the religious system, but in non-religious terms, the untouchables are another varna.

    The Jatis (jati might be plural) are different. A Tamil Brahmin (I think that’s a jati) would not marry some Brahmin from somewhere else, he would marry a Tamil Brahmin. Some jatis have endogamous sub-jati, though I do not know what they are called. They’ve genotyped people from different jatis, a lot have been endogamous for three thousand years.

    I have heard that Indians in America frequently marry within their varna (layer caste) but not within their jati. Perhaps this indicates that the caste system is breaking down, but perhaps there will be IT worker jatis, even separate ones for different programming languages, though those may change too fast. I have heard call center workers in India are becoming castes. Oh God, there will be a ton of Indians who can speak English without much accent when the floodgates that restrict Indian immigration to the Indian elite open.

    Back to Dune somewhat, it is pretty obvious that the caste system retarded Indian development. I know rec1man thinks some Brahmin jatis have 120 mean IQ, I think this is unlikely. First, because Brahmins were probably not under selection pressure that favored high IQ. It does not matter if the witch doctor casts his spell correctly, it won't work either way. Bolstering his argument, however, is the existence of Ramachandran and Ramanujan, Even the merchant castes do not seem to have been selected like European Jews. Imagine if they had been, though. Three thousand years of strong selection for intelligence. Even a small population with a mean IQ of 130 could pump out more people with 165 IQ (3 σ above their mean, but 5 above ours) than the rest of humanity. Interestingly, in the only Indian IQ test results, I could find on the internet, the merchant castes were higher IQ than the Brahmins.

    I got the feeling from Dune that discovering the scientific principles for their super-science tech took a genius, Holtzman if I remember correctly, building and operating that tech is fairly simple.

    I wonder how deeply the Bene Gesserit breeding influence extends — are there lots of sisters around, using voice to pair successful (at their caste’s role) men with fertile women? Are most marriages in Imperial society arranged? A Dune novel that focused on someone from a fairly low caste might be really interesting. An exploration of the Dune-iverse that many fans would like to read and argue about on the internet. Brian Herbert, call me!

    Imagine the Dune-iverse as the descendent of our cultures. There is strong selection against ambition — Fischer’s social promotion of the [relatively] infertile seems to be true. Thousands of years of ambitious people having fewer kids would have tremendous evolutionary effects on the population. Also, modern reproduction patterns are unsustainable, Greg Cochran discussed that reproduction in the Byzantine Empire was sustainable for at least the better part of a thousand years. Dumb people did have tremendously higher reproductive success than smart people. Antisocial people did not have lots more kids than responsible people, etc. Though they did lose to Arabs, perhaps Arabs are bad at war today in part because they burned so much asabiya genetic potential for asabiya in their expansion. A quick search could do not turn up the Byzantine post on Westhunt.

    The Dune Universe is set 8,000 years in the future, at minimum. Don’t they do dates by years since the Corrino dynasty started? So 10,000 years in one social structure. People could have been heavily selected. If an organization worked hard at it for a long time, Africans could be bred into nearly albino, high IQ supercomputers in human form, though I would think they’d figure out a way to get out of the breeding program once they averaged, like 160 IQ. Casting that actor as Thufir Hawaiian shows just how far into the future Dune is set.

    I do wonder how far the ban on “thinking machines” extends. Are calculators allowed? Maybe silicon chips are too hard to make without computers?

    Has anyone read the Dune prequels? I read the first three, about Atreides, Harkonnen, and Corrino houses a generation before Dune. They were fun but did not have the power of Dune. There was one set in the Butlerian Jihad. Gotta say I do not think we could win a fight with a superhuman AI. At a minimum, they could make a hundred plagues with really high IFR. They could do this every year for decades. Though I kind of wanted Skynet in Terminator to be controlled by people living…somewhere. They want to remake the world completely, and extermination of all of humanity besides them is necessary.

    In my headcanon, Dune is set in the Terminator universe, tens, maybe hundreds, of thousands of years after humanity, against all odds, wins. It might also be the future of the Eclipse Phase RPG universe.

  58. The fight scenes were just ok. Lady Jessica was a shivering cringing mouse, which you should have noticed was very different from the book.

    You really had any trouble keeping Gurney Hallack and Duncan Idaho separate in your head? I’m sure the similar, height, weight, complexion, hair, body language and speech patterns made the characters indistinguishable to the casual viewer.

    You didn’t mention Feyd a major character in the first novel. I’m sure the director kept him out as the character served to highlight the Baron’s homosexuality and deviancy. My guess is the director doesn’t want to solidify the common perception of homosexual men as being creepy and pedos.

    Kynes was totally miscast, as was Chani.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @TWS

    The evil Baron's other nephew, who is like one of those unpopular Roman emperors like Caligula, Nero, and especially Commodus, only appears well into the book and isn't introduced in the movie. The book doesn't have much about the brutal nephew Rabban, but the movie expands his role slightly. Wrestler Dave Bautista is pretty good, as he usually is in sci-fi movies.

    Replies: @TWS

  59. I remember reading Dune in high school. I got so into it that I found myself trying to divine the hidden meanings behind everything everyone said.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @Paul Mendez

    It was the girls in my junior high school who read Dune. I still think of it as basically a girl's thing.

    By high school, both the boys and the girls were reading Tolkien's Lord of the Rings trilogy, which, after I read The Hobbit and 1/2 of the first book of the trilogy, I decided was a waste of my time.

    I dropped out shortly thereafter, though I doubt because of that. Somehow, though, I don't think I missed much between then and my GED and college.

  60. Would an ancient person like me enjoy Dune? Or should I just watch an old movie, or a Columbo, or for sci fi an original Star Trek. I would estimate that over the past 20 years, 20 new movies have come along that I would call, to use Steve’s term, “magnificent.” I could say the same thing about modern art, literature, and music having unraveled, to this ancient sensibility..

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @SafeNow

    The novel is pretty ancient in sensibility, from the 1960s, and the movie is pretty true to the book.

  61. The advantages of streaming include closed captions for hearing the dialogue over Zimmer’s thudding score and the ability to stop the film to discuss what’s going on in the perplexing plot.

    I saw the 1984 version with a friend who had not read the book. Good that it was showing at a drive-in, my constantly having to explain things whispered did not bother the other patrons.

  62. iSteve, the Harkonen couldn’t exterminate the sandworms, because the worms made the priceless spice…Essentially, Dune exists to harvest the worms’ waste…The movie doesn’t explain how interstellar travel could reach Dune before the spice was known…

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @pyrrhus

    iSteve, the Harkonen couldn’t exterminate the sandworms, because the worms made the priceless spice…

    That's why that would be ironic.

    The movie doesn’t explain how interstellar travel could reach Dune before the spice was known…

    Yeah, I have that in my notes. You could fix that problem with a line about how the spice makes interstellar travel affordable, but then there are other lines about how the Spacing Guild's monopoly makes travel extremely expensive. The Spacing Guild seems to exist in this novel to keep the Harkonnen from putting spy satellites up over Dune, although I'm sure more elaborate explanations are provided in the various sequels.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

    , @Peter Akuleyev
    @pyrrhus

    The movie doesn’t explain how interstellar travel could reach Dune before the spice was known…

    Interstellar travel presumably was performed with AI before the Butlerian jihad. The discovery of spice would have been a prerequisite to destroying thinking machines. That seems logical, but I haven't read the prequels so I have no idea if that's how Herbert's son explains it.

    Replies: @Corn

  63. I remember, when I was a student in Cambridge in the ’60s, going into a famous little takeout place called Elsies, seeing an off-duty nurse sitting on a bench with a sandwich reading Dune, a 900 page SciFi epic…At that point, I said to myself, this novel is going to be huge…

  64. @Anonymous
    @Mr. Anon

    When was war magnificent?

    I supposes riding horses is fun, but is there anything worse than having an arrow lodged inside you?

    War did get dreary with armies trained to serve in rifle battalions where men stood rigid as sitting ducks.
    And trench warfare in WWI did get squalid.

    But at least as sheer spectacle, what was more magnificent than WWII with advanced planes as sky horses. And Vietnam had air cavalry. And tank battles were awesome too.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2C7lFUG8pw0

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbR2JzMn2E

    Replies: @El Dato, @Ralph L, @Joe Stalin, @Buffalo Joe

    And Vietnam had air cavalry.

    The guys at Khe Sanh combat base experienced a sustained spectacle of aerial bombardment.

    Comment on YT:

    Aaron Erickson
    I went on one flight in Vietnam at night in a mohawk. They flew us many directions where we were lost and didn’t know where we were. I was a camera man on this flight. The captain told me when he said take it I was to start taking pictures. Just a hand held trigger. Bullits were arking up at us, tracers look strange when coming at you. After a while I heard a strange noise and he yelled hit it! The whole world was exploding under us. We filmed it all then flew back to our compound via radio directions. We were maybe 3,000 feet up and there was a V of B52 above us at 30,000 feet i guess. We were in the center of their formation over 25,000 feet below them. It was the o ly time i went on an observation flight. JANUARY 1968. Something I will never forget. A B52 bombing at night is quite a sight. And being shot at with tracers from the ground was very strange because you could see how close they were getting to hitting us.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Joe Stalin

    Whatever one thinks of modern war, it can't get any more spectacular than this.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30QzJKCUekQ&ab_channel=Movieclips

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dObTXYa-_n4&ab_channel=Movieclips

    The worst period for war as spectacle was when riflemen were drilled to stand or march in rigid formations and function like machines. Maybe it was effective in its day, but what a dull way of slaughter. When bullets fly, people should duck. But in these battles, it's as if soldiers aren't allowed to react to conditions and stick only with training. It seems most un-human.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbBojWrOV2Y&ab_channel=BarryLyndonVideos

    But World War I brought back natural responses. When things explode, you duck. War got more animated, more exciting. But because of the deadlock, it ground down into static trench warfare that seemed useless and wasteful of lives as neither side was gaining any ground.

    But World War II was a highly mobile war on land and sea. It was brutal but exciting as hell.

    Maybe it's perverse to call this 'magnificent' but it's truly awesome. Video at 1:12:00

    https://youtu.be/GZlzMhfx2hQ?t=4278

  65. @Mike Tre
    @R.G. Camara

    Can those of us who enjoy sci fi even trust movie makers to give us an honest effort in telling the story as opposed to more mindless social justice engineering? The casting of this Zendaya creature is one part of the clear answer.

    Replies: @Wilkey

    Can those of us who enjoy sci fi even trust movie makers to give us an honest effort in telling the story as opposed to more mindless social justice engineering? The casting of this Zendaya creature is one part of the clear answer.

    I’m really annoyed by the casting in the Foundation series. Most of the actors they cast are awful and unattractive. They seem to have gone overboard with casting minorities simply because they’re minorities. Leah Harvey, the “trans or “non-binary” or whatever black woman who plays Salvor Hardin, is quite possibly the worst lead on any show I’ve ever seen.

    AppleTV seems to have a much bigger obsession with “diverse” casting than pretty much every other streaming service. They even had to insert some unknown trans dude as an interviewee in a documentary on Charles Schulz (yes, the Peanuts guy), for no apparent reason. Up next they have a version of Macbeth with a black Macbeth and a black Macduff.

    But Dune is not on AppleTV, and the casting seems pretty good. They got diversity, but not without sacrificing quality. A few cast members are questionable, but none are terrible. Chalamet is ok, but still seems a bit too metrosexual for the role – I doubt he’s ever even been camping. Casting Kynes as a black woman seems the most intentionally diverse of their choices, but she managed. I really liked Stephen Henderson, the almost albino-looking black actor they cast as mentat Thufir Hawat. Haven’t seen enough of Zendaya to know how well she fits the role, but she hasn’t ruined it yet. They weren’t going to cast a supermodel or a pale Irish girl as a hardened native of a desert planet.

    But by far the best casting choice is Rebecca Ferguson as Lady Jessica. Lady Jessica has to fluctuate between times when she’s extremely vulnerable and times when she’s the strongest woman in the scene. She does that very convincingly, and she’s luminous.

    • Thanks: Mike Tre
    • Replies: @Alfa158
    @Wilkey

    Unattractive seems to have become a stand in for “this is a work of art”, but that is the current cultural zeitgeist. For the last century ugliness as art has been one of the tools for demolishing a civilization so it can be replaced with a new one.
    The Expanse is an excellent series, but I finally realized that even the actors who are attractive people ( and there is no shortage of genuinely ugly actors in the series) are being consciously made to look as unattractive as possible. Unflattering lighting, ugly makeup, dirt and grime, wide angle lenses for close-ups on faces, weird hair, etc. The one character I have seen who was depicted as conventionally cute was Holden’s original girlfriend who appeared briefly in the first episode and was immediately killed off and replaced with a homely “British” actress.

    Replies: @dimples

    , @Rob
    @Wilkey

    I liked Stephen Henderson, the almost albino-looking black actor they cast as Mentat Thufir Hawat

    That’s really good casting. They imply that mentats are from a heavily selected population. Due to pleiotropy and reduced effective population size in a breeding pool, they might end up looking strange. If I remember correctly, Hawat is described as having very curly hair, maybe even a ‘fro.

    You didn't say it, but that Chalamet looks like he’s never been camping and is metrosexual is also good. Aristocratic men having characteristics that seem fey is a really common idea among proles. I hope he matures into someone who looks like he could be Lawrence of Arabia, the person on whom I think Frank Herbert based Pail-Maud’dib.

    If I were a director casting young actors for a series of films, especially ones where they will age much faster than the characters, though I don’t think that applies to Dune, I would beg, borrow or steal the software the FBI uses to come up with “what the suspect/kidnapping victim might look like now.” I'd also want photos of the actor's parents, aunts/uncles, and older siblings. Might also give the SNP to phenotype software a shot, though I’d take it with a grain of salt. You’d hate to cast handsome, boy-band member Timmy Chalamet and end up with a skinny fat 20-year-old who's losing his hair for the sequel.

  66. Lady Jessica’s veil-of-chains ensemble

    for occasions of state, seem deeply strange.

    Well, maybe, but metal face adornment has plenty of antecedents in Bedouin culture and Ottoman history.

    [MORE]

    Traditionally, I think these kind of decorations were meant to display wealth while also protecting the modesty of the wearer, who was in a sense property. The Lady Jessica character, as a concubine, is also a kind of slave/property and of a wealthy Duke, so the chained-Ottoman reference is apt.

    Of course, they don’t want to cover up too much of the face they are paying \$x million/minute to show on screen.

    • Replies: @Ralph L
    @Almost Missouri

    It's interesting that Jessica isn't wearing eye makeup in that photo. I suspect the Taliban went full burqa because of all the paint Iranian women slathered on their one visible area.

    , @Buzz Mohawk
    @Almost Missouri


    ... protecting the modesty of the wearer, who was in a sense property. The Lady Jessica character, as a concubine, is also a kind of slave/property...
     
    Sure. Even here in the West we have our modern-day equivalents.


    https://i.pinimg.com/236x/fd/6c/0d/fd6c0d5a97ecaa32019cfa7e0072c734--slave-girl-corset.jpg


    Nothing to see here, folks. Just protecting the modesty of a concubine. Move along...

    Replies: @El Dato, @Joe S.Walker, @Chrisnonymous

  67. Anonymous[371] • Disclaimer says:

    You have a lot of wonderful allusive tendencies and this is per usual hitting that. But even slightly better.

    In terms of Herbert, he was a strange dude. But I recommend to all to read The Dosadai Project. His best novel everZ! You can see the Trump-y, 4-chan-y, Gowachin frogs in there. But so much more than that. Yes, it’s sort of silly to imagine it actually happening. But very cool as a story.

    He also wrote a locked room mystery submarine story (you can get the man out of the Navy, but hard to get the Navy out of the man):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dragon_in_the_Sea

  68. @Almost Missouri

    Lady Jessica’s veil-of-chains ensemble
     
    https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2021/10/19/USAT/4188807b-8116-4ba0-91e9-4abaaa8eef6f-LADY_JPEG.jpg?width=1320&height=996&fit=crop&format=pjpg&auto=webp

    for occasions of state, seem deeply strange.
     
    Well, maybe, but metal face adornment has plenty of antecedents in Bedouin culture and Ottoman history.



    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f3/33/30/f33330477b36c07990acaf795ed6e8c6.png

    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/37/5e/a2/375ea2f9c4b4eba07759e7c35141c1ee.jpg

    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/3e/fa/7c/3efa7c1f3f4a0faeb4e1b20cee0e711f.jpg

    https://live.staticflickr.com/734/21721377894_bc19999820_b.jpg

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/87/ac/dd/87acdd09b46cc0cd639b0831d5ac1476.jpg

    Traditionally, I think these kind of decorations were meant to display wealth while also protecting the modesty of the wearer, who was in a sense property. The Lady Jessica character, as a concubine, is also a kind of slave/property and of a wealthy Duke, so the chained-Ottoman reference is apt.

    Of course, they don't want to cover up too much of the face they are paying $x million/minute to show on screen.

    Replies: @Ralph L, @Buzz Mohawk

    It’s interesting that Jessica isn’t wearing eye makeup in that photo. I suspect the Taliban went full burqa because of all the paint Iranian women slathered on their one visible area.

  69. @Alfa158
    The two best features about this movie:
    The ornithopters are cool.
    The clever lettering in the title that uses the same character turned to four orientations.

    The two reasons that the SciFy miniseries is better than this version:
    Chani’s ta-tas in the miniseries.

    Replies: @The Germ Theory of Disease

    “The clever lettering in the title that uses the same character turned to four orientations.”

    Clever, yes, but if you’re feeling uncharitable, it can be read as “DUNCE”.

    Now that would be a funny mashup: Ignatius Reilly as the Quisatz Haderach.

    • LOL: kaganovitch
    • Replies: @Alfa158
    @The Germ Theory of Disease

    That would be funny. I’m guessing that’s why they added the tiny dot inside the “e”
    Decades ago when I was courting my soon to be wife I was a standard, unhip, bachelor dolt who knew nothing about fashion. My fiancé decided to start upgrading my wardrobe and bought me a Christian Dior polo shirt. The short had an embroidered logo which was the word Dior, but with the i and the o artfully dropped below the level of the D and r. I looked at that and guessed “Doctor 10?”.
    Today I’m a standard, unhip, married dolt who knows more about fashion than I ever wanted to.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

  70. @Buzz Mohawk
    My view of Dune has always been like a free loan: zero interest.

    With all the fascinating things to read and see in this world, a lifetime is not long enough, so why waste time with Dune?

    Still, it is interesting to compare and contrast Steve Sailer's review with Trevor Lynch's published here on the same day.

    It is curious, for example, that Sailer does not appear to care much about how the imaginary world of Dune is European and Middle Eastern, whereas Lynch is all over it. It would seem the implications are there, as Lynch at least touches upon. Furthermore, the effort to shoehorn non-White actors into this is obvious, so why not discuss it?

    Replies: @El Dato, @Wilkey, @Reg Cæsar, @Pincher Martin

    It is curious, for example, that Sailer does not appear to care much about how the imaginary world of Dune is European and Middle Eastern, whereas Lynch is all over it. It would seem the implications are there, as Lynch at least touches upon.

    To be fair, the parallels between the Dune universe and current and historical events on Earth seem almost a little too obvious. Herbert didn’t really try all that hard to hide them. Caladan (=Caledonia=Scotland) is a stand-in for the gentler colonial powers, like Great Britain. They even played the Atreides army off the ship with bagpipes.. The Harkonnen are more like the Belgians. The Fremen are, in turn, either space Muslims or space Jews (in the books they seem a bit of an amalgam), and Paul is a cross between T.E. Lawrence and Jesus. And, of course, the spice is some super awesome combination of oil and every great hallucinogen known to man.

    • Thanks: Buzz Mohawk
    • Replies: @SunBakedSuburb
    @Wilkey

    "the gentler colonial powers, like Great Britain"

    Sure, it was a gentle colonization if you paid fealty to the House of Nimrod.

    , @Steve Sailer
    @Wilkey

    I was thinking about oil in the Middle East and I don't think spice and Arrakis is that close of an analogy. The oil industry can be environmentally destructive around water, but in the desert, not so much. I suspect Herbert was thinking more about metal mining in Indian lands in the West, such as gold and silver. Gold mining usually uses nasty stuff like mercury.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @Buzz Mohawk

  71. @Dave Pinsen
    @Steve Sailer

    Zendaya is still sort of pretty when she's dolled up with professional hair & makeup, but desert messy doesn't suit her, and neither does proximity to Rebecca Ferguson.

    Maybe a better casting choice for Chani, if they had to make her mixed-race, would have been Hailee Steinfeld.

    https://www.hawtcelebs.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/hailee-steinfeld-at-buzzfeed-s-am-to-dm-in-new-york-11-01-2019-3.jpg

    Replies: @Franz, @S. Anonyia, @John Milton's Ghost, @guest007, @theMann, @Steve Sailer

    Good choice–plus if the Fremen are Arabs, there’s a lot of leeway in whom you choose to play them. Steinfeld has formerly done a lot of teen angsty movies but is older now and seems a good fit.

  72. As for the book-movie tension, I don’t see how anyone could ever make the movie satisfying in the same way that the book is. If the movie is to be a success, it has to be good in a different way. (Think _Dr. Zhivago_ as an example, both book and movie are great but quite different.)

    This is also in part because _Dune_ is also a sprawling monster of a book, with characters and themes embedded in a way that makes Rowling’s series read like Curious George. It’s an acid-trip combination of philosophy, politics, ecology, religion, and history, and as Steve notes a transitional blend of the early and late-60s in sensibility. I have no expectations that this movie will be good, and certainly not the movie equivalent of what the book was–but given that everything in the movies today is a warmed-over superhero movie with woke politics and Strong Wymyn, I’m at least hoping it is an improvement of that dreck.

  73. Famed psychohistorian Paul Krugman has also posted his review, starting with his opinions about Apple’s Foundation series.:

    “Foundation” might seem unfilmable… So how does the Apple TV series turn this into a visually compelling tale? It doesn’t. What it does instead is remake “Star Wars” under another name… Pretending that this series has anything to do with the “Foundation” novels is fraudulent marketing, and I’ve stopped watching.

    Now on to “Dune.” The book is everything “Foundation” isn’t: There’s a glittering, hierarchical society wracked by intrigue and warfare, a young hero of noble birth who may be a prophesied Messiah, a sinister but alluring sisterhood of witches, fierce desert warriors and, of course, giant worms.

    The great thing about Denis Villeneuve’s “Dune: Part I” is that he respects the audience enough to retain the book’s spirit. He trimmed the narrative to reduce it to filmable size — and even so, his two and a half hours cover only the first half of the book — but he didn’t dumb it down. Instead, he relies on spectacle and spine-tingling action to hold our attention despite the density of the story. In so doing he made a film worthy of the source material.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/26/opinion/dune-movie-foundation-series.html

  74. Dunc is the film equivalent of Brutalist architecture. A concrete box.

  75. @Paul Mendez
    I remember reading Dune in high school. I got so into it that I found myself trying to divine the hidden meanings behind everything everyone said.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

    It was the girls in my junior high school who read Dune. I still think of it as basically a girl’s thing.

    By high school, both the boys and the girls were reading Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings trilogy, which, after I read The Hobbit and 1/2 of the first book of the trilogy, I decided was a waste of my time.

    I dropped out shortly thereafter, though I doubt because of that. Somehow, though, I don’t think I missed much between then and my GED and college.

  76. @Pericles
    @Mr. Anon

    Sean Young was, apart from her incredible looks, also pretty good at taking down various coworkers; I think she could have been a superior entertainment journalist or columnist of the old school. But in the end she lacked the judgement to see her position in Hollywood clearly and leave certain people alone, and was after a hostile PR campaign ultimately dismissed as a madwoman and a flake.

    Replies: @Simon

    I was lucky enough to watch a few scenes of David Lynch’s Dune being filmed down in Mexico City, and recall that Young (really gorgeous, I agree, though not with that stillsuit gear up her nose) behaved a bit like a schoolgirl verging on a discipline problem, to Lynch’s obvious annoyance. At one point, after a take involving a huge crowd scene, everyone stayed patiently in costume except her. She immediately tore open the top of her stillsuit, raised her arms, and twisted back and forth in an attention-seeking way, as if overcome with heat. (Well, I’m sure that outfit really was pretty warm — but everyone else remained immobile.) Lynch had to say something like “We’re all waiting for you, Sean,” and indeed everyone had to wait while she zipped up her costume again, before he could do the next take.

    • Replies: @Pericles
    @Simon

    Lol, I'm sure Lynch hated having to be the responsible dad type at that point. "I'm the narcissistic genius who just does what he likes, not her. Why am I even here??"

  77. @Almost Missouri

    Lady Jessica’s veil-of-chains ensemble
     
    https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2021/10/19/USAT/4188807b-8116-4ba0-91e9-4abaaa8eef6f-LADY_JPEG.jpg?width=1320&height=996&fit=crop&format=pjpg&auto=webp

    for occasions of state, seem deeply strange.
     
    Well, maybe, but metal face adornment has plenty of antecedents in Bedouin culture and Ottoman history.



    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f3/33/30/f33330477b36c07990acaf795ed6e8c6.png

    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/37/5e/a2/375ea2f9c4b4eba07759e7c35141c1ee.jpg

    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/3e/fa/7c/3efa7c1f3f4a0faeb4e1b20cee0e711f.jpg

    https://live.staticflickr.com/734/21721377894_bc19999820_b.jpg

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/87/ac/dd/87acdd09b46cc0cd639b0831d5ac1476.jpg

    Traditionally, I think these kind of decorations were meant to display wealth while also protecting the modesty of the wearer, who was in a sense property. The Lady Jessica character, as a concubine, is also a kind of slave/property and of a wealthy Duke, so the chained-Ottoman reference is apt.

    Of course, they don't want to cover up too much of the face they are paying $x million/minute to show on screen.

    Replies: @Ralph L, @Buzz Mohawk

    … protecting the modesty of the wearer, who was in a sense property. The Lady Jessica character, as a concubine, is also a kind of slave/property…

    Sure. Even here in the West we have our modern-day equivalents.

    Nothing to see here, folks. Just protecting the modesty of a concubine. Move along…

    • Replies: @El Dato
    @Buzz Mohawk

    https://i.postimg.cc/hvTN6skg/man-of-culture-II.jpg

    , @Joe S.Walker
    @Buzz Mohawk

    On topic response: in the Lynch film, Francesca Annis was much more convincingly gagged than Rebecca Ferguson is.

    , @Chrisnonymous
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Is that your wife, Buzz?

  78. @Dave Pinsen
    @Steve Sailer

    Zendaya is still sort of pretty when she's dolled up with professional hair & makeup, but desert messy doesn't suit her, and neither does proximity to Rebecca Ferguson.

    Maybe a better casting choice for Chani, if they had to make her mixed-race, would have been Hailee Steinfeld.

    https://www.hawtcelebs.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/hailee-steinfeld-at-buzzfeed-s-am-to-dm-in-new-york-11-01-2019-3.jpg

    Replies: @Franz, @S. Anonyia, @John Milton's Ghost, @guest007, @theMann, @Steve Sailer

    Hailee Steinfeld is actually younger than Zendaya and would probably have fit the role better.

    It seems that the director did not mind Dawson Casting.

    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DawsonCasting

  79. @The Germ Theory of Disease
    @Steve Sailer

    "This Zendaya girl was very pretty a few years ago"

    Well, that was Zendaya, this is now.

    OK, somebody can call up and have Alec Baldwin shoot me.

    Replies: @Boo Alcindor

    Baldwin’s daughter should leave him a voice message.

    • LOL: R.G. Camara, bomag
  80. Villenueve is not really like James Cameron. Cameron makes fist-pumping popcorn movies. Compare his script for Rambo to the original First Blood, or his Aliens to Ridley Scott’s Alien. His original Terminator was quite tense for an action movie, but the sequel was a very different animal tonally. Cameron would never make a movie like Incendies, Prisoner or Enemy. Even Sicario, an action movie, is far too cynical and audience-punishing for him (although the sequel to that was disappointingly conventional and retconned a lot that was distinctive about it).

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @TGGP

    Villenueve is more art director than anything else.

    He knows how to stain the glass but doesn't build his own universe like Cameron has done, for good or ill.

    More decorator than architect but, at his best, one of the best in the business.

  81. @Reg Cæsar
    Who needs Dune on screen when we have Macbeth acted out in real life? Or at least McBeth:

    Family members devastated after landlord is accused of killing a tenant over heating complaint

    “War, which used to be cruel and magnificent, has now become cruel and squalid.”
     
    The same could be said for sex.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

    Reg, I have read a few books about Churchill and by Churchill. He was a great quote for the press. However, when you are running young men into a meat grinder there is nothing magnificent about the ensuing gore and carnage. Magnificent says the man who took two leisurely baths every day and drank champagne all day long.

    • Agree: Almost Missouri
  82. @Anonymous
    @Mr. Anon

    When was war magnificent?

    I supposes riding horses is fun, but is there anything worse than having an arrow lodged inside you?

    War did get dreary with armies trained to serve in rifle battalions where men stood rigid as sitting ducks.
    And trench warfare in WWI did get squalid.

    But at least as sheer spectacle, what was more magnificent than WWII with advanced planes as sky horses. And Vietnam had air cavalry. And tank battles were awesome too.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2C7lFUG8pw0

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbR2JzMn2E

    Replies: @El Dato, @Ralph L, @Joe Stalin, @Buffalo Joe

    SixSixEight, ah yes, war is awesome if you didn’t just shit your pants when your foxhole mate’s head landed in your lap and his brains were scattered in your face. War, what fun. My father, two of his brothers and three of my mother’s brothers served in WWII. Never, ever shared a ‘war story’ with me or my cousins. Surviving combat is magnificent. Killing, not so much.

    • Replies: @Alfa158
    @Buffalo Joe

    My father was a tanker in the Italian Army in the Balkans and refused to talk about it because of all the men he machine gunned relatively up close where he could see them. He never bought us war toys and the one time an uncle gave me a toy army truck, Dad snuck it away, painted over the olive drab with silver and returned it to me.
    My father-in-law was a US Navy gunner and had lots of stories, but the only enemy he probably killed was a Japanese pilot he never even caught a glimpse of. It was like a video game, the plane came low right over his gun emplacement he fired a couple of 20mm rounds right into it at point blank range, the plane banked gently to the left and splashed into the sea without leaving a trace. No blood, no gore.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

  83. @Percival
    Timothée Chamalet may be the worst thing to have happened to Hollywood in recent memory.

    Replies: @Hapalong Cassidy, @Reg Cæsar

    Timothée Chamalet may be the worst thing to have happened to Hollywood in recent memory.

    Like Viggo Mortensen, he was born here. At least Viggo, like Jorma Kaukonen, has the excuse of being a junior to a foreign father. (Jorma Sr was born in the UP, but that’s still fairly foreign.)

    Jorma (Jr) and Timothée had Jewish mothers. Viggo’s grandparents were from four different countries, Denmark, Norway, the US, and Canada. (The Gyllenhaals and Scarlett Johansson also have Nordic fathers and Jewish mothers and, notably, American first names.) Viggo and Timothée spent much of their youths abroad.

    Native Americans stuck with foreign first names used to go into serious fields– Thorstein Veblen, Claire Chennault, Minoru Yamasaki. Yo-yo Ma, technically a native of Paris, too. It’s like they had to prove themselves. Now, it’s pop culture.

    Timothée, like Scarlett and Anderson Cooper, is a child of Manhattan. So was my great-grandmother, but things have certainly changed since 1890.

  84. …a not terribly good black actress play the planetary ecologist Liet Kynes…

    Propping up a diabetic troll like Stephen Henderson as a mentat is what struck me as especially arbitrary.

  85. @El Dato
    @Anonymous

    Churchill hard a hard-on for sea warfare against germans.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

    El Dato, and the German U-boats almost sank England before the USA came along to help.

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    @Buffalo Joe

    And then we gave you the Hiroshima bomb.

  86. @Buzz Mohawk
    My view of Dune has always been like a free loan: zero interest.

    With all the fascinating things to read and see in this world, a lifetime is not long enough, so why waste time with Dune?

    Still, it is interesting to compare and contrast Steve Sailer's review with Trevor Lynch's published here on the same day.

    It is curious, for example, that Sailer does not appear to care much about how the imaginary world of Dune is European and Middle Eastern, whereas Lynch is all over it. It would seem the implications are there, as Lynch at least touches upon. Furthermore, the effort to shoehorn non-White actors into this is obvious, so why not discuss it?

    Replies: @El Dato, @Wilkey, @Reg Cæsar, @Pincher Martin

    My view of Dune has always been like a free loan: zero interest.

    With all the fascinating things to read and see in this world, a lifetime is not long enough, so why waste time with Dune?

    How much of “science” fiction is just sociological fiction, or political fantasy? Is actual science involved?

    Flatland is an example in which science– mathematics– is central. Some of Twilight Zone and One Step Beyond could qualify as SF as well, though the latter claimed to be based on true stories. Star Wars is just a medieval romance, or even horse opera, transferred to space.

    • Replies: @El Dato
    @Reg Cæsar

    Another one is Greg Egan's "Incandescence"

    Depending on taste, it's fun!

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    , @Buzz Mohawk
    @Reg Cæsar

    Flatland is excellent. My father read it in Modesto high school about 85 years ago and then recommended it to me about 35 years later.

    , @R.G. Camara
    @Reg Cæsar

    There's a distinction in scifi between "hard science fiction" (which is highly technical and tries to get the science right) and "soft science fiction" which is more socio-political commentary set in space or the far future.

    https://infogalactic.com/info/Hard_science_fiction

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

  87. Okay, I now withdraw my wish that someone would make a film based on William Gibson’s Neuromancer.

    • Agree: J.Ross
    • Replies: @El Dato
    @Enemy of Earth

    Cyberpunk doesn't age so well. Plus we already had "The Matrix" and "Ghost in the Shell" (anime 1 + anime 2 + ussified movie), which is really Neo-Cyberpunk (and Cyberpunk seen from the higher rungs of the techno-feudal ladder instead of the lower rungs)

    , @Pericles
    @Enemy of Earth

    Lol, have you seen Johnny Mnemonic? A reminder that film making is a delicate thing, one of those O-ring technologies.

  88. @Steve Sailer
    @G. Poulin

    I read the novel last month and was surprised by how close the movie stuck to it.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @pyrrhus

    Yes, very closely indeed….I would have liked to see them improve the implausible Harkonen takeover/treacherous doctor lets down shields section a little…

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @pyrrhus

    Yeah, the Dr. Yueh stuff was pretty perfunctory in both the book and movie.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @The Germ Theory of Disease

  89. @Reg Cæsar
    @Buzz Mohawk


    My view of Dune has always been like a free loan: zero interest.

    With all the fascinating things to read and see in this world, a lifetime is not long enough, so why waste time with Dune?
     

    How much of "science" fiction is just sociological fiction, or political fantasy? Is actual science involved?

    Flatland is an example in which science-- mathematics-- is central. Some of Twilight Zone and One Step Beyond could qualify as SF as well, though the latter claimed to be based on true stories. Star Wars is just a medieval romance, or even horse opera, transferred to space.

    Replies: @El Dato, @Buzz Mohawk, @R.G. Camara

    Another one is Greg Egan’s “Incandescence”

    Depending on taste, it’s fun!

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @El Dato

    "The Amalgam" is the perfect sobriquet for the people in charge today. Except it causes, rather than relieves, toothaches.

  90. @El Dato
    @Mr. Anon

    Haven't seen the movie but Sean Young was a bit weird as hardscrabble knifing, hunting & working girl of 13 who would take a bead on Paul Atreides, probably smells like a tramp as has skin like leather. (Also, those people must have super special mind improvement techniques or their years are longer).

    Also directly related to Kynes how about that!

    The feel when Zendaya looks good in that role.

    Maybe one could take Ellie from "The Last of Us", hunger her out a bit and give her a stillsuit?


    "So be it," Jessica said. She released her hold on him, stepped aside in full view of the bank in the basin. This is the test-mashed, she thought. But Paul must know about them even if I die for his knowledge.

    In the waiting silence, Paul inched forward to get a better view of where his mother stood. As he moved, he heard heavy breathing, suddenly stilled, above him in the vertical crack of the rock, and sensed a faint shadow there outlined against the stars.
    Stilgar's voice came up from the basin: "You, up there! Stop hunting the boy. He'll come down presently."

    The voice of a young boy or a girl sounded from the darkness above Paul: "But, Stil, he can't be far from--"

    "I said leave him be, Chani! You spawn of a lizard!"

    There came a whispered imprecation from above Paul and a low voice: "Call me spawn of a lizard!" But the shadow pulled back out of view.

    Paul returned his attention to the basin, picking out the gray-shadowed movement of Stilgar beside his mother.

    "Come in, all of you," Stilgar called. He turned to Jessica. "And now I'll ask you how we may be certain you'll fulfill your half of our bargain? You're the one's lived with papers and empty contracts and such as--"
     

    The companion pressed two squares of gauze into Stilgar's hand. Stilgar ran them through his fingers, fixed one around Jessica's neck beneath her hood, fitted the other around Paul's neck in the same way.

    "Now you wear the kerchief of the bakka," he said. "If we become separated, you will be recognized as belonging to Stilgar's sietch. We will talk of weapons another time."

    He moved out through his band now, inspecting them, giving Paul's Fremkit pack to one of his men to carry.

    Bakka, Jessica thought, recognizing the religious term: bakka--the weeper. She sensed how the symbolism of the kerchiefs united this band. Why should weeping unite them? she asked herself.

    Stilgar came to the young girl who had embarrassed Paul, said: "Chani, take the child-man under your wing. Keep him out of trouble."

    Chani touched Paul's arm. "Come along, child-man."
     

    Replies: @El Dato, @Pincher Martin

    Haven’t seen the movie but Sean Young was a bit weird as hardscrabble knifing, hunting & working girl of 13 who would take a bead on Paul Atreides, probably smells like a tramp as has skin like leather. (Also, those people must have super special mind improvement techniques or their years are longer).

    The two toughest roles to fill in Dune, if you play them close to the book, are first Paul and then Chani. The other major roles in the book – Duke Leto, Lady Jessica, Idaho Duncan, Stilgar, Baron Harkonnen, etc. – are a piece of cake by comparison.

    The difficulty in casting Paul is obvious. You need someone who can appear both young and regal; inexperienced, yet a leader of strong men by the end of the film; tough enough to survive the deserts of Arrakis, but innocent of the entire planet’s ways when he first arrives.

    Casting Chani is not as difficult as Paul’s character, but she has some similar features. She is young, but already a killer when she first makes an appearance. She is not as naive as Paul, but her youth gives her some curiosity (“Tell me about the waters of your home world, Usul.”) and trepidation (for Paul’s fate, once they become lovers).

    These are not easy roles to fill. They work far better on the page, where time is of less importance and internal monologues can be helpful in showing a character’s motivations and evolution, than on screen.

    Perhaps for that reason, I’ve never seen the two roles played well. Not in Villeneuve’s film. Not in Lynch’s film. Not even in the 2000 TV mini-series, which is my favorite screen adaptation of the book. And if you can’t fill two of the most important roles in the story well, including what is easily the most important character of Dune (Paul), then how likely are you to make a good film?

    • Agree: El Dato
  91. @Wilkey
    @Buzz Mohawk


    It is curious, for example, that Sailer does not appear to care much about how the imaginary world of Dune is European and Middle Eastern, whereas Lynch is all over it. It would seem the implications are there, as Lynch at least touches upon.
     
    To be fair, the parallels between the Dune universe and current and historical events on Earth seem almost a little too obvious. Herbert didn't really try all that hard to hide them. Caladan (=Caledonia=Scotland) is a stand-in for the gentler colonial powers, like Great Britain. They even played the Atreides army off the ship with bagpipes.. The Harkonnen are more like the Belgians. The Fremen are, in turn, either space Muslims or space Jews (in the books they seem a bit of an amalgam), and Paul is a cross between T.E. Lawrence and Jesus. And, of course, the spice is some super awesome combination of oil and every great hallucinogen known to man.

    Replies: @SunBakedSuburb, @Steve Sailer

    “the gentler colonial powers, like Great Britain”

    Sure, it was a gentle colonization if you paid fealty to the House of Nimrod.

  92. @Anon
    @Pincher Martin


    How many times did I need to see Chani’s face before, you know, actually seeing Chani?
     
    I suspect that it was driven as much by business reasons as artistic ones. The character is barely in the film but the actress is a big part of the marketing and her contract probably requires a set amount of screen time as well.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

    Well, the dream sequences don’t give Chani that much more screen time. Maybe two minutes at the most. So if what you’re saying is the case, the director could have easily extended the end of the film by five minutes with more interaction between Paul and Chani. It would’ve been a better film, too. The first encounter between Paul and Chani is not given enough attention in this movie.

    One of the dream sequences – more like a drug-induced hallucination – interrupts what should be one of the most exciting scenes in the movie. When a sandworm barrels toward on a spice-mining vehicle, Duke Leto, Paul, and others, who were watching above from a thopter, swoop down to save the men. When Paul gets out to help direct the rescue, the spice in the desert causes him to hallucinate a vision of the future. During his hallucination, he sees Chani’s face. Again. (I think this is already the third time in the film he sees her.)

    Unfortunately, this spice-induced vision disrupts what should’ve been a pretty good scene of Paul’s first encounter with a sandworm and its destructive powers.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Pincher Martin

    Yeah, in general I think the movie suffered from too much cross-cutting rather than just let the action play out in what should be big set-piece scenes like the rescue of the spice-trawler crew.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

  93. Anon[629] • Disclaimer says:

    OT

    This Los Angeles Times article is a nice reading exercise for race-conscious noticers:

    Did Beverly Hills police target Black shoppers on Rodeo Drive? What records and emails show

    https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-10-27/beverly-hills-was-accused-of-creating-a-police-unit-that-overwhelmingly-arrested-black-people-numbers-tell-a-more-complex-story

    The Beverly Hills cops have arrested mostly blacks in recent sweeps. Therefore (as Kendi would say), either there is something wrong with blacks (and Kendi dares you to say that), or it’s “brazen, illegal racial profiling.”

    The arrests were for these things-white-people-don’t-do-so-much-on-Rodeo-Drive:

    o Jaywalking
    o Riding scooters on the sidewalk
    o Playing loud music
    o Gambling
    o Double parking
    o Street vending
    o Smoking pot outside ritzy stores

    Also, they arrested a hundred or so “people” for identity fraud in an elaborate unemployment benefits scam in which they tried to purchase stuff (like gold chains from Harry Winston, presumably, and guns) using EDD debit cards. The L.A. D.A. has only filed charges against about ten of them so far. That ratio says “racism” to activists. To me it says “Soros D.A. trying not to prosecute blacks.”

  94. Reading up on Herbert’s inspiration in the conflict between Tsarist Russia & Muslims of the Caucusus reminded me: are there any good movies on the expansion of Tsarist Russia? There are plenty of American westerns on how the US spread from sea to shining sea despite opposition from the natives, but the only “Osterns” I’m aware of take place during the Russian Civil War of the early 20th Century with Bolsheviks as the heroes and Central Asia already supposed to be under their nominal authority. And, on a related note, I’m still curious about what technological advantage the Russians had in their wars with Persia.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @TGGP

    Good questions. I'd like to know too. It's the kind of thing that may be covered someday on the Russians with Attitude podcast, though they haven't covered it yet that I'm aware of. If you subscribe and ask, maybe they would. I don't think their audience is too big not to pay attention to individual requests.

    The only kinda sorta "Ostern" (good coinage) movie I know of is Prisoner of the Mountains, which is transmogrified from a 19th century Tolstoy story into a 20th century white-other encounter movie. So maybe it's more of "Southern" than an "Ostern".

    Bonus: the star of Prisoner of the Mountains was Sergei Bodrov Jr., who was also the star of the 1990s Russian bleak-ist classic Brat. He was killed in 2002 by an avalanche while filming another movie.

    , @Anonymous
    @TGGP

    Verne's Michael Strogoff is a book in this vein (a Western in Russia) and has been filmed several times.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Strogoff

    , @Steve Sailer
    @TGGP

    One of Peter Turchin's books starts with an exciting chapter of history on the Russian frontier and it struck me that I was over 50 years old before I'd ever really even thought about the Russian drive east. I have some picture in my head of Russians in Alaska and Northern California, but not of Czarist Russians subduing Siberia.

    Long ago, I bought Tolstoy's short novel about a Caucasian warlord but didn't read it.

    Replies: @S Johnson

    , @Philip Owen
    @TGGP

    Very good. Few people (none really) pick up on the Cossack element in the Fremen make up.

    , @Philip Owen
    @TGGP

    -White sun of the desert- is an Ostern. I've only seen it in Russian but I think it is available with subtitles. A lone Russian soldiers saves a sheikh's wives from Central Asian brigands somewhere on the shores of the Caspian Sea. An oil storage tank is involved.

  95. @El Dato
    @Joe S.Walker


    the combination of super-technology and feudalism was basically silly
     
    "High tech" and "Feudalism" are orthogonal concepts. Most people in Dune (possibly in the empire) don't have access to high tech at all, but apparently you can indeed service smuggler spaceships in the desert, kinda like the Millenium Falcon hidden under a rock.

    We don’t have House Disney and Duke Apple. (Imagine Mark Zuckerberg as Baron Facebook….)
     
    Soon. We haven't gone through the coming resource crunch and Malthusian beatdown ... yet. Give it a bit of time. "Baron Facebook commands your presence!" sounds impressive.

    Likewise, in this world the nearest thing to the Bene Gesserit is the feminist movement.
     
    Not at all. It's an Illuminati-Sciency mashup run by ultra-rational woman who are in perfect control of themselves. "Feminism" is unfettered emotional crisis 24/7.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Joe S.Walker

    I’m sure most feminists would declare themselves ultra-rational with perfect self-control – or if they aren’t it’s some man’s fault.

    • LOL: Joseph Doaks
  96. Rebecca Ferguson is Swedish and Scottish. The Swedes had a Viking settlement on the Delaware River diagonally opposite the Dutch who were on the Hudson River in what became the state of New Jersey and there are still a good amount of people with Swede and Dutch ancestry in New Jersey.

    New Jersey, like New Hampshire, had pockets of Scotch-Irish here and there and Rebecca Ferguson is a beautiful lady with a nice figure who you could imagine seeing in the mid-Atlantic region of the USA.

    I like her because she is of average height — 5 feet 5 inches tall — and she has solid acting craft skills that she must have acquired by plenty of work and God-given talent.

    OFF TOPIC

    Attention Steve Sailer:

    How about some blog posts on this Federal Reserve Bank asset bubble in stocks and bonds and real estate and other assets?

    Elon Musk is laughing all the way to every bank imaginable with his asset bubble loot piling up sky high.

    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist
    @Charles Pewitt

    Rebecca Ferguson is luminous in the BBC-produced, War of the Roses-themed, TV series 'The White Queen'.

  97. @Reg Cæsar
    @Buzz Mohawk


    My view of Dune has always been like a free loan: zero interest.

    With all the fascinating things to read and see in this world, a lifetime is not long enough, so why waste time with Dune?
     

    How much of "science" fiction is just sociological fiction, or political fantasy? Is actual science involved?

    Flatland is an example in which science-- mathematics-- is central. Some of Twilight Zone and One Step Beyond could qualify as SF as well, though the latter claimed to be based on true stories. Star Wars is just a medieval romance, or even horse opera, transferred to space.

    Replies: @El Dato, @Buzz Mohawk, @R.G. Camara

    Flatland is excellent. My father read it in Modesto high school about 85 years ago and then recommended it to me about 35 years later.

    • Agree: Pincher Martin
  98. @Wilkey
    @Mike Tre


    Can those of us who enjoy sci fi even trust movie makers to give us an honest effort in telling the story as opposed to more mindless social justice engineering? The casting of this Zendaya creature is one part of the clear answer.
     
    I'm really annoyed by the casting in the Foundation series. Most of the actors they cast are awful and unattractive. They seem to have gone overboard with casting minorities simply because they're minorities. Leah Harvey, the "trans or "non-binary" or whatever black woman who plays Salvor Hardin, is quite possibly the worst lead on any show I've ever seen.

    AppleTV seems to have a much bigger obsession with "diverse" casting than pretty much every other streaming service. They even had to insert some unknown trans dude as an interviewee in a documentary on Charles Schulz (yes, the Peanuts guy), for no apparent reason. Up next they have a version of Macbeth with a black Macbeth and a black Macduff.

    But Dune is not on AppleTV, and the casting seems pretty good. They got diversity, but not without sacrificing quality. A few cast members are questionable, but none are terrible. Chalamet is ok, but still seems a bit too metrosexual for the role - I doubt he's ever even been camping. Casting Kynes as a black woman seems the most intentionally diverse of their choices, but she managed. I really liked Stephen Henderson, the almost albino-looking black actor they cast as mentat Thufir Hawat. Haven't seen enough of Zendaya to know how well she fits the role, but she hasn't ruined it yet. They weren't going to cast a supermodel or a pale Irish girl as a hardened native of a desert planet.

    But by far the best casting choice is Rebecca Ferguson as Lady Jessica. Lady Jessica has to fluctuate between times when she's extremely vulnerable and times when she's the strongest woman in the scene. She does that very convincingly, and she's luminous.

    Replies: @Alfa158, @Rob

    Unattractive seems to have become a stand in for “this is a work of art”, but that is the current cultural zeitgeist. For the last century ugliness as art has been one of the tools for demolishing a civilization so it can be replaced with a new one.
    The Expanse is an excellent series, but I finally realized that even the actors who are attractive people ( and there is no shortage of genuinely ugly actors in the series) are being consciously made to look as unattractive as possible. Unflattering lighting, ugly makeup, dirt and grime, wide angle lenses for close-ups on faces, weird hair, etc. The one character I have seen who was depicted as conventionally cute was Holden’s original girlfriend who appeared briefly in the first episode and was immediately killed off and replaced with a homely “British” actress.

    • Replies: @dimples
    @Alfa158

    Yes Naomi Nagata with her squashed nose and endless whining was a real turn-off. I have no desire to watch the final series of The Expanse thanks.

  99. @Buzz Mohawk
    My view of Dune has always been like a free loan: zero interest.

    With all the fascinating things to read and see in this world, a lifetime is not long enough, so why waste time with Dune?

    Still, it is interesting to compare and contrast Steve Sailer's review with Trevor Lynch's published here on the same day.

    It is curious, for example, that Sailer does not appear to care much about how the imaginary world of Dune is European and Middle Eastern, whereas Lynch is all over it. It would seem the implications are there, as Lynch at least touches upon. Furthermore, the effort to shoehorn non-White actors into this is obvious, so why not discuss it?

    Replies: @El Dato, @Wilkey, @Reg Cæsar, @Pincher Martin

    So you don’t have time to read the novel Dune or see the movie Dune, because there are too many other excellent things out there to read and see, but you have time to read two reviews of the latest Dune movie?

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @Pincher Martin

    One takes days, the other hours, and the last two take minutes.

    Furthermore, with the last two, I don't have to actually subject myself to someone else's fantasy that I'm not interested in.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

    , @Pixo
    @Pincher Martin

    I probably read 10 movie reviews for every movie I watch (1-2 a month)

    It takes about 90 seconds on average since I often skim digressions and spoilers. And it saves time since a boring movie is a waste. A good way to find a movie is pick a random year on RogerEbert.com and then read all the four star movie reviews until I find one that I haven’t seen and that sounds interesting.

    EasyNews.com has a much better selection and is cheaper than Netflix, including all recent releases in 4K, but you have to be moderately tech literate and have your PC linked to a movie quality monitor.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

  100. @Buffalo Joe
    @Anonymous

    SixSixEight, ah yes, war is awesome if you didn't just shit your pants when your foxhole mate's head landed in your lap and his brains were scattered in your face. War, what fun. My father, two of his brothers and three of my mother's brothers served in WWII. Never, ever shared a 'war story' with me or my cousins. Surviving combat is magnificent. Killing, not so much.

    Replies: @Alfa158

    My father was a tanker in the Italian Army in the Balkans and refused to talk about it because of all the men he machine gunned relatively up close where he could see them. He never bought us war toys and the one time an uncle gave me a toy army truck, Dad snuck it away, painted over the olive drab with silver and returned it to me.
    My father-in-law was a US Navy gunner and had lots of stories, but the only enemy he probably killed was a Japanese pilot he never even caught a glimpse of. It was like a video game, the plane came low right over his gun emplacement he fired a couple of 20mm rounds right into it at point blank range, the plane banked gently to the left and splashed into the sea without leaving a trace. No blood, no gore.

    • Thanks: Buzz Mohawk
    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @Alfa158

    My father told me about seeing Korean families in little boats trying to get across the 38th parallel, off the coast, during that war. He was the engineer, third in command, on a US Navy destroyer.

    All those people wanted to do was get back together with their relatives, and my Dad could see that.

    Meanwhile, his ship was shelling the coastline to provide cover for retreating American troops who probably shouldn't have been there at all.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @Steve Sailer

  101. @Pincher Martin
    @Buzz Mohawk

    So you don't have time to read the novel Dune or see the movie Dune, because there are too many other excellent things out there to read and see, but you have time to read two reviews of the latest Dune movie?

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @Pixo

    One takes days, the other hours, and the last two take minutes.

    Furthermore, with the last two, I don’t have to actually subject myself to someone else’s fantasy that I’m not interested in.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
    @Buzz Mohawk


    One takes days, the other hours, and the last two take minutes.
     
    But of course one can fill up hours, days, weeks, months, years wasting time on items that take just minutes. If you're willing to read two film reviews on this latest movie you aren't willing to see based on the book you aren't willing to read, then are you also willing to read three reviews? ... four? ...five? ... more?

    And how often would you do this for different movies you aren't willing to see based on books you aren't willing to read? Surely, it's not just Dune.

    When I was in college, in an effort to become better informed about contemporary political issues and criticism, I tried to read from cover to cover all the political and literary periodicals of the day: National Review, Commentary, TNR, The Nation, NYRoB, etc. I soon found I couldn't read anything else. Reading the average political or literary article doesn't take that long, but reading them all sure does.

    Replies: @Anonymous

  102. @Buzz Mohawk
    @Almost Missouri


    ... protecting the modesty of the wearer, who was in a sense property. The Lady Jessica character, as a concubine, is also a kind of slave/property...
     
    Sure. Even here in the West we have our modern-day equivalents.


    https://i.pinimg.com/236x/fd/6c/0d/fd6c0d5a97ecaa32019cfa7e0072c734--slave-girl-corset.jpg


    Nothing to see here, folks. Just protecting the modesty of a concubine. Move along...

    Replies: @El Dato, @Joe S.Walker, @Chrisnonymous

  103. @Buzz Mohawk
    @Pincher Martin

    One takes days, the other hours, and the last two take minutes.

    Furthermore, with the last two, I don't have to actually subject myself to someone else's fantasy that I'm not interested in.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

    One takes days, the other hours, and the last two take minutes.

    But of course one can fill up hours, days, weeks, months, years wasting time on items that take just minutes. If you’re willing to read two film reviews on this latest movie you aren’t willing to see based on the book you aren’t willing to read, then are you also willing to read three reviews? … four? …five? … more?

    And how often would you do this for different movies you aren’t willing to see based on books you aren’t willing to read? Surely, it’s not just Dune.

    When I was in college, in an effort to become better informed about contemporary political issues and criticism, I tried to read from cover to cover all the political and literary periodicals of the day: National Review, Commentary, TNR, The Nation, NYRoB, etc. I soon found I couldn’t read anything else. Reading the average political or literary article doesn’t take that long, but reading them all sure does.

    • Agree: Buzz Mohawk
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Pincher Martin

    That's true of news/politics websites too. You can easily spend whole days reading this stuff.

  104. @Alfa158
    @Buffalo Joe

    My father was a tanker in the Italian Army in the Balkans and refused to talk about it because of all the men he machine gunned relatively up close where he could see them. He never bought us war toys and the one time an uncle gave me a toy army truck, Dad snuck it away, painted over the olive drab with silver and returned it to me.
    My father-in-law was a US Navy gunner and had lots of stories, but the only enemy he probably killed was a Japanese pilot he never even caught a glimpse of. It was like a video game, the plane came low right over his gun emplacement he fired a couple of 20mm rounds right into it at point blank range, the plane banked gently to the left and splashed into the sea without leaving a trace. No blood, no gore.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

    My father told me about seeing Korean families in little boats trying to get across the 38th parallel, off the coast, during that war. He was the engineer, third in command, on a US Navy destroyer.

    All those people wanted to do was get back together with their relatives, and my Dad could see that.

    Meanwhile, his ship was shelling the coastline to provide cover for retreating American troops who probably shouldn’t have been there at all.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @Buzz Mohawk


    ... during that war...
     
    The "Korean War," as we call it. I'm not sure I made that clear, though the story should make it obvious. Dad got called back for that one.
    , @Steve Sailer
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Probably saved Jerry Pournelle's life. Jerry's squad escaped the Chinese assault on the Chosin (sp?) reservoir in North Korea and fled south. Finally, they came within range of the US Navy's guns and for the first time in weeks a million Chinamen weren't trying to kill him, which made him very happy.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

  105. @Buzz Mohawk
    @Alfa158

    My father told me about seeing Korean families in little boats trying to get across the 38th parallel, off the coast, during that war. He was the engineer, third in command, on a US Navy destroyer.

    All those people wanted to do was get back together with their relatives, and my Dad could see that.

    Meanwhile, his ship was shelling the coastline to provide cover for retreating American troops who probably shouldn't have been there at all.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @Steve Sailer

    … during that war…

    The “Korean War,” as we call it. I’m not sure I made that clear, though the story should make it obvious. Dad got called back for that one.

  106. @Pat Hannagan
    @Jim Christian

    Spot on.

    I bypass all the movie reviews, especially the Trevor Lynch stuff, but half-hearted started reading this to only run out of steam two thirds the way through through the promo.

    The events of the world right now are all the dystopian sci-fi novels of the 20th century come to life. Who has the need or desire to watch a fantasy film, isn't reality enough?

    I think what astounds me the most is the lack of urgency, or even feigned interest, by some of the finest minds on the internet. Here we have a deadset bonus gift of statistics in covid-19 for the statistically minded to feast upon, yet all we get are movie reviews?

    If one wants to get all film literate I'd like to discuss why the South Koreans are pumping out the best movies and serial TV at the moment. From Parasite, to Train to Busan, the brilliant Kingdom and now their latest in Squid Game. Some of the best examinations of modern life you'll find, far and away superior to Judeo-American dross. I'd hazard a guess and say it's because the South Koreans are still a people largely in control of their own ethnic destiny, whereas our movies are spawned from an alien race who hates us.

    They have Kia and Hyundai, a national sense of self based on their own ethnic image which they portray and examine in their art, we get re-makes and mulligans on old work done badly with heaping helpings of Woke horseshit.

    Replies: @fish, @AaronB, @Pixo, @Jim Christian, @anonymous coward, @Thoughts, @Chrisnonymous

    I thought you had been reported dead?

  107. Anonymous[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @R.G. Camara
    As I said in my comment on Trevor Lynch's review:

    Saw it, was bored by it, the colors and visuals were all muted, dark, and boring. I never read the books or saw other versions, so the story was alien to me. This reviewer is right, Zendaya was given prominence a lot in the dreams but she’s not even close to attractive enough to be some mystical It girl.

    Note to Hollywood: stop trying to make Zendaya a thing. She’s not going to be a thing. She’s best-friend-in-a-romcom or plain-jane-love-interest-in-an-indie-movie-for-an-ugly guy — and that’s if you can get past the blackness. She’s the worst thing in all the new Spiderman movies — not only for being dowdy, but also because she’s being a snarky bitch to Spiderman instead of the googly-eyed red-headed girl next door bombshell love interest he deserves.

    My friend, who has read the Dune books and loved them, was royally pissed off by the film. He even commented that the constant repetition of the image of the bull was out of place — a bull is only mentioned once in the novel and is not significant at all. Drove him nuts.

    Pass on this.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Mr. Anon, @Dave Pinsen, @Peter Akuleyev, @Mike Tre, @Paul Rise, @Anonymous

    Saw it, was bored by it, the colors and visuals were all muted, dark, and boring. I never read the books or saw other versions, so the story was alien to me. This reviewer is right, Zendaya was given prominence a lot in the dreams but she’s not even close to attractive enough to be some mystical It girl.

    Also the aesthetic overall was much more “ethnic” and less northern European. Not just Zendaya and the non-white characters, but also actors like Isaac, Bardem, etc who are very ethnic looking. I understand that characters have Greek names, it’s a Mideastern setting, it’s sci-fi/fantasy, etc., but it was a contrast with Lynch’s more norther Euro centric version.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Anonymous

    In the book, Lady Jessica describes Duke Leto as reminding her of olive trees.

    The Duke's father was a bullfighter for fun (Spanish), the general atmosphere is lifted from Italian Renaissance Borgia vs. Medici scheming (Italian), and House Atreides is a knock of Agamemnon's House of Atreus (Greek): i.e., Mediterranean.

    Their planet Caladan, however, is Scotland (Caledonia), although in the book it's described in passing references as more tropical.

    Lady Jessica has bronze-colored hair and is more northern European than her consort. The movie has kind of a Macbeth air. Also, Paul is kind of Hamlet with a murdered dad and a hot mom.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara, @Twinkie

    , @Dave Pinsen
    @Anonymous

    Lynch having the Fremen leader Stilgar played by Everett McGill with dirt on his face was kind of silly.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  108. @The Germ Theory of Disease
    @Alfa158

    "The clever lettering in the title that uses the same character turned to four orientations."

    Clever, yes, but if you're feeling uncharitable, it can be read as "DUNCE".

    Now that would be a funny mashup: Ignatius Reilly as the Quisatz Haderach.

    Replies: @Alfa158

    That would be funny. I’m guessing that’s why they added the tiny dot inside the “e”
    Decades ago when I was courting my soon to be wife I was a standard, unhip, bachelor dolt who knew nothing about fashion. My fiancé decided to start upgrading my wardrobe and bought me a Christian Dior polo shirt. The short had an embroidered logo which was the word Dior, but with the i and the o artfully dropped below the level of the D and r. I looked at that and guessed “Doctor 10?”.
    Today I’m a standard, unhip, married dolt who knows more about fashion than I ever wanted to.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @Alfa158

    It's always good to learn from women what to wear. As heterosexual men, we don't really know. They do. I've been there too, my friend.

    Replies: @Colin Wright, @Reg Cæsar, @Stan d Mute

  109. Anonymous[393] • Disclaimer says:
    @Joe Stalin
    @Anonymous


    And Vietnam had air cavalry.
     
    The guys at Khe Sanh combat base experienced a sustained spectacle of aerial bombardment.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dE-FRuOnW_M

    Comment on YT:


    Aaron Erickson
    I went on one flight in Vietnam at night in a mohawk. They flew us many directions where we were lost and didn't know where we were. I was a camera man on this flight. The captain told me when he said take it I was to start taking pictures. Just a hand held trigger. Bullits were arking up at us, tracers look strange when coming at you. After a while I heard a strange noise and he yelled hit it! The whole world was exploding under us. We filmed it all then flew back to our compound via radio directions. We were maybe 3,000 feet up and there was a V of B52 above us at 30,000 feet i guess. We were in the center of their formation over 25,000 feet below them. It was the o ly time i went on an observation flight. JANUARY 1968. Something I will never forget. A B52 bombing at night is quite a sight. And being shot at with tracers from the ground was very strange because you could see how close they were getting to hitting us.

     

    Replies: @Anonymous

    Whatever one thinks of modern war, it can’t get any more spectacular than this.

    The worst period for war as spectacle was when riflemen were drilled to stand or march in rigid formations and function like machines. Maybe it was effective in its day, but what a dull way of slaughter. When bullets fly, people should duck. But in these battles, it’s as if soldiers aren’t allowed to react to conditions and stick only with training. It seems most un-human.

    But World War I brought back natural responses. When things explode, you duck. War got more animated, more exciting. But because of the deadlock, it ground down into static trench warfare that seemed useless and wasteful of lives as neither side was gaining any ground.

    But World War II was a highly mobile war on land and sea. It was brutal but exciting as hell.

    Maybe it’s perverse to call this ‘magnificent’ but it’s truly awesome. Video at 1:12:00

  110. @TGGP
    Villenueve is not really like James Cameron. Cameron makes fist-pumping popcorn movies. Compare his script for Rambo to the original First Blood, or his Aliens to Ridley Scott's Alien. His original Terminator was quite tense for an action movie, but the sequel was a very different animal tonally. Cameron would never make a movie like Incendies, Prisoner or Enemy. Even Sicario, an action movie, is far too cynical and audience-punishing for him (although the sequel to that was disappointingly conventional and retconned a lot that was distinctive about it).

    Replies: @Anonymous

    Villenueve is more art director than anything else.

    He knows how to stain the glass but doesn’t build his own universe like Cameron has done, for good or ill.

    More decorator than architect but, at his best, one of the best in the business.

  111. @Steve Sailer
    @R.G. Camara

    The bull that killed Duke Leto's bullfighter/duke father is mentioned more than once in the book. Lady Jessica is weirded out by it.

    This Zendaya girl was very pretty a few years ago in the low-brow "Greatest Showman" biopic about P.T. Barnum.

    Replies: @The Germ Theory of Disease, @Dave Pinsen, @Mike Tre, @R.G. Camara

    The bull that killed Duke Leto’s bullfighter/duke father is mentioned more than once in the book. Lady Jessica is weirded out by it.

    While watching the movie and getting annoyed by the constant bull imagery, my frustrated buddy downloaded a digital version of Dune and did a control-F for “bull” and then for other bovine-esque references. He only found one, he said, solidifying his belief that the bull reference was the director’s weird choice and thus making the movie “not really Dune.”

    This Zendaya girl was very pretty a few years ago in the low-brow “Greatest Showman” biopic about P.T. Barnum.

    Yeah, standing next to the bearded fat lady and the Siamese twins she looked like a million bucks. (/sarcasm).

    At least she wasn’t fat, and was giving off the sexy gymnast vibe. But other than that, it was her position as the lone non-freak that made her look appealing.

  112. @Pat Hannagan
    @Jim Christian

    Spot on.

    I bypass all the movie reviews, especially the Trevor Lynch stuff, but half-hearted started reading this to only run out of steam two thirds the way through through the promo.

    The events of the world right now are all the dystopian sci-fi novels of the 20th century come to life. Who has the need or desire to watch a fantasy film, isn't reality enough?

    I think what astounds me the most is the lack of urgency, or even feigned interest, by some of the finest minds on the internet. Here we have a deadset bonus gift of statistics in covid-19 for the statistically minded to feast upon, yet all we get are movie reviews?

    If one wants to get all film literate I'd like to discuss why the South Koreans are pumping out the best movies and serial TV at the moment. From Parasite, to Train to Busan, the brilliant Kingdom and now their latest in Squid Game. Some of the best examinations of modern life you'll find, far and away superior to Judeo-American dross. I'd hazard a guess and say it's because the South Koreans are still a people largely in control of their own ethnic destiny, whereas our movies are spawned from an alien race who hates us.

    They have Kia and Hyundai, a national sense of self based on their own ethnic image which they portray and examine in their art, we get re-makes and mulligans on old work done badly with heaping helpings of Woke horseshit.

    Replies: @fish, @AaronB, @Pixo, @Jim Christian, @anonymous coward, @Thoughts, @Chrisnonymous

    I agree with you that South Korea is making superior television these days.

    But what they are producing hardly points to a healthy society – something has clearly gone very, very wrong in Korea that they are making Squid Games and Parasite and many similar things.

    Incidentally, these shows are huge in the US – indicating there is something wrong across the industrialized world.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    @AaronB

    Is there anything on television in America that is wholesome? Even worse perhaps is mainstream popular music, which seems to be uniformly degenerate and evil. Compare that to the 70's: ABBA, Olivia Newton John, Linda Ronstadt, John Denver, etc.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara, @Steve Sailer, @AaronB

  113. @Pat Hannagan
    @Jim Christian

    Spot on.

    I bypass all the movie reviews, especially the Trevor Lynch stuff, but half-hearted started reading this to only run out of steam two thirds the way through through the promo.

    The events of the world right now are all the dystopian sci-fi novels of the 20th century come to life. Who has the need or desire to watch a fantasy film, isn't reality enough?

    I think what astounds me the most is the lack of urgency, or even feigned interest, by some of the finest minds on the internet. Here we have a deadset bonus gift of statistics in covid-19 for the statistically minded to feast upon, yet all we get are movie reviews?

    If one wants to get all film literate I'd like to discuss why the South Koreans are pumping out the best movies and serial TV at the moment. From Parasite, to Train to Busan, the brilliant Kingdom and now their latest in Squid Game. Some of the best examinations of modern life you'll find, far and away superior to Judeo-American dross. I'd hazard a guess and say it's because the South Koreans are still a people largely in control of their own ethnic destiny, whereas our movies are spawned from an alien race who hates us.

    They have Kia and Hyundai, a national sense of self based on their own ethnic image which they portray and examine in their art, we get re-makes and mulligans on old work done badly with heaping helpings of Woke horseshit.

    Replies: @fish, @AaronB, @Pixo, @Jim Christian, @anonymous coward, @Thoughts, @Chrisnonymous

    South Koreans are the smartest ethnic group in the world next to Ashkenazi Jews. And they have an crazy school calendar and after school cram school culture to max out their genotype.

    They may also have the largest brains physically, which is correlated with IQ.

    Too bad they have a current TFR of 0.84, and that is counting those born to Korean men and SE Asian mail order brides (~8% of marriages and probably more like 12% of births).

    The next generation of pure S. Koreans will be 60% less than the size of the current one.

    https://m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.asp?newsIdx=317718

  114. Meanwhile back on earth, well, near earth, Chicago is going one better than San Francisco by having the City do the looting.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/10/25/chicago-poised-create-one-nations-largest-guaranteed-basic-income-programs/

  115. Solzhenitsyn would be the obvious scriptwriter for an Ostern.

  116. @TGGP
    Reading up on Herbert's inspiration in the conflict between Tsarist Russia & Muslims of the Caucusus reminded me: are there any good movies on the expansion of Tsarist Russia? There are plenty of American westerns on how the US spread from sea to shining sea despite opposition from the natives, but the only "Osterns" I'm aware of take place during the Russian Civil War of the early 20th Century with Bolsheviks as the heroes and Central Asia already supposed to be under their nominal authority. And, on a related note, I'm still curious about what technological advantage the Russians had in their wars with Persia.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @Anonymous, @Steve Sailer, @Philip Owen, @Philip Owen

    Good questions. I’d like to know too. It’s the kind of thing that may be covered someday on the Russians with Attitude podcast, though they haven’t covered it yet that I’m aware of. If you subscribe and ask, maybe they would. I don’t think their audience is too big not to pay attention to individual requests.

    The only kinda sorta “Ostern” (good coinage) movie I know of is Prisoner of the Mountains, which is transmogrified from a 19th century Tolstoy story into a 20th century white-other encounter movie. So maybe it’s more of “Southern” than an “Ostern”.

    Bonus: the star of Prisoner of the Mountains was Sergei Bodrov Jr., who was also the star of the 1990s Russian bleak-ist classic Brat. He was killed in 2002 by an avalanche while filming another movie.

    • Thanks: El Dato
  117. @Alfa158
    @The Germ Theory of Disease

    That would be funny. I’m guessing that’s why they added the tiny dot inside the “e”
    Decades ago when I was courting my soon to be wife I was a standard, unhip, bachelor dolt who knew nothing about fashion. My fiancé decided to start upgrading my wardrobe and bought me a Christian Dior polo shirt. The short had an embroidered logo which was the word Dior, but with the i and the o artfully dropped below the level of the D and r. I looked at that and guessed “Doctor 10?”.
    Today I’m a standard, unhip, married dolt who knows more about fashion than I ever wanted to.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

    It’s always good to learn from women what to wear. As heterosexual men, we don’t really know. They do. I’ve been there too, my friend.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    @Buzz Mohawk

    'It’s always good to learn from women what to wear. As heterosexual men, we don’t really know. They do. I’ve been there too, my friend.'

    ? I always know exactly what to wear. I have five shirts like that, and five pairs of trousers like that.

    If I'm going to stain the deck, I put on the old ones. If we're going out to dinner, I put on the new ones.

    It's not complicated.

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Buzz Mohawk

    It’s always good to learn from women what to wear. As heterosexual men, we don’t really know. They do. I’ve been there too, my friend.




    https://youtu.be/npAhoaG20bc

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

    , @Stan d Mute
    @Buzz Mohawk


    It’s always good to learn from women what to wear. As heterosexual men, we don’t really know. They do. I’ve been there too, my friend.
     
    Spoken like a true boomer beta. Wow!

    Women don’t give a crap about what you wear as long as you are pounding them all night long. If they can’t walk properly the next day, do you think they are discussing your choice of Dockers versus whatever else you boomers were wearing? Seriously?

    Never has any generation been so stupid. I just watched a video of an Arab laughing hysterically at you all for only having one wife. And little did the Arab know that you couldn’t even satisfy her..

    Masculinity is dead. I see absolutely no evidence of it beyond Gen-X. It died with us.
  118. @Pincher Martin
    @Buzz Mohawk

    So you don't have time to read the novel Dune or see the movie Dune, because there are too many other excellent things out there to read and see, but you have time to read two reviews of the latest Dune movie?

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @Pixo

    I probably read 10 movie reviews for every movie I watch (1-2 a month)

    It takes about 90 seconds on average since I often skim digressions and spoilers. And it saves time since a boring movie is a waste. A good way to find a movie is pick a random year on RogerEbert.com and then read all the four star movie reviews until I find one that I haven’t seen and that sounds interesting.

    EasyNews.com has a much better selection and is cheaper than Netflix, including all recent releases in 4K, but you have to be moderately tech literate and have your PC linked to a movie quality monitor.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
    @Pixo

    I used to read a lot of reviews, too, but not of movies I had no intention of seeing.

  119. @Reg Cæsar
    @Buzz Mohawk


    My view of Dune has always been like a free loan: zero interest.

    With all the fascinating things to read and see in this world, a lifetime is not long enough, so why waste time with Dune?
     

    How much of "science" fiction is just sociological fiction, or political fantasy? Is actual science involved?

    Flatland is an example in which science-- mathematics-- is central. Some of Twilight Zone and One Step Beyond could qualify as SF as well, though the latter claimed to be based on true stories. Star Wars is just a medieval romance, or even horse opera, transferred to space.

    Replies: @El Dato, @Buzz Mohawk, @R.G. Camara

    There’s a distinction in scifi between “hard science fiction” (which is highly technical and tries to get the science right) and “soft science fiction” which is more socio-political commentary set in space or the far future.

    https://infogalactic.com/info/Hard_science_fiction

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @R.G. Camara


    “hard science fiction” (which is highly technical and tries to get the science right)
     
    Then the Miss Pickerell books were "hard", youth-oriented as they were. The science was solid and up-to-date. Perhaps that's why, after the original author died, it took the publishers a whole decade to find a new writer of the same skill to carry on the series.
  120. @Enemy of Earth
    Okay, I now withdraw my wish that someone would make a film based on William Gibson's Neuromancer.

    Replies: @El Dato, @Pericles

    Cyberpunk doesn’t age so well. Plus we already had “The Matrix” and “Ghost in the Shell” (anime 1 + anime 2 + ussified movie), which is really Neo-Cyberpunk (and Cyberpunk seen from the higher rungs of the techno-feudal ladder instead of the lower rungs)

  121. @Dave Pinsen
    @Steve Sailer

    Zendaya is still sort of pretty when she's dolled up with professional hair & makeup, but desert messy doesn't suit her, and neither does proximity to Rebecca Ferguson.

    Maybe a better casting choice for Chani, if they had to make her mixed-race, would have been Hailee Steinfeld.

    https://www.hawtcelebs.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/hailee-steinfeld-at-buzzfeed-s-am-to-dm-in-new-york-11-01-2019-3.jpg

    Replies: @Franz, @S. Anonyia, @John Milton's Ghost, @guest007, @theMann, @Steve Sailer

    “and neither does proximity to Rebecca Ferguson”

    True not only of 99% of women in the world, but 99% of the Women in Hollywood, as well.

    Put my pointed comment about Zendaya in the Trevor Lynch Article, since I figure that way it will get published today.

  122. You guys are just a bunch of arrested-development teenagers. Science fiction, indeed. Go clean your room.

  123. Black actors and all…

    but Steve likes it…

    I feel like the elderly Confederate gentleman in the years after the Civil War.

    As some of you may know, ex-Confederate officers, officials, etc could regain their civil rights and hold public office, etc — if they took a loyalty oath to the Union.

    So dude’s son breaks the news to his father: he’s going to take the oath.

    ‘You are no son of mine, I’m going to disown you, get out of my sight,’ etc.

    ‘But father, General Lee has advised that we take the oath.’

    ‘Well…hmmm…if General Lee approves, that puts the matter in a different light.’

  124. @Buzz Mohawk
    @Alfa158

    It's always good to learn from women what to wear. As heterosexual men, we don't really know. They do. I've been there too, my friend.

    Replies: @Colin Wright, @Reg Cæsar, @Stan d Mute

    ‘It’s always good to learn from women what to wear. As heterosexual men, we don’t really know. They do. I’ve been there too, my friend.’

    ? I always know exactly what to wear. I have five shirts like that, and five pairs of trousers like that.

    If I’m going to stain the deck, I put on the old ones. If we’re going out to dinner, I put on the new ones.

    It’s not complicated.

    • LOL: Alden, Buzz Mohawk
  125. @El Dato
    @Reg Cæsar

    Another one is Greg Egan's "Incandescence"

    Depending on taste, it's fun!

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    “The Amalgam” is the perfect sobriquet for the people in charge today. Except it causes, rather than relieves, toothaches.

  126. @Buzz Mohawk
    @Alfa158

    It's always good to learn from women what to wear. As heterosexual men, we don't really know. They do. I've been there too, my friend.

    Replies: @Colin Wright, @Reg Cæsar, @Stan d Mute

    It’s always good to learn from women what to wear. As heterosexual men, we don’t really know. They do. I’ve been there too, my friend.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @Reg Cæsar

    "Try a little tenderness" is right.

    The problem for us men is how to balance that with the roughness women also want. Sometimes it's this; sometimes it's that. The best strategy is to just do what comes naturally and hope that chance, random occurrence, will even it all out.

    And to listen to her.

    She wants both sides of you.

    You just sometimes don't know which one. Don't overthink it. God prepared you for this, and her for this. Just do it and let the chips fall... We wouldn't be here if they didn't more often fall where you want them to, and where she does too.

    Gee, don't I sound wise? LOL

    Replies: @Captain Tripps

  127. Ruggeri’s in St Louis, population:

    1950 856,796
    1960 750,026
    1970 622,236
    1980 453,805
    1990 396,685
    2000 348,189
    2010 319,294
    2020 301,578

    Yogi’s hometown is a lot less crowded. But nobody goes there anymore.

  128. @Peter Akuleyev
    @R.G. Camara

    she’s not even close to attractive enough to be some mystical It girl.

    Considering this is supposed to be a woman born and raised in a physically harsh environment without access to cosmetics or hairstylists, Zendaya is, if anything, probably too attractive. My recollection from the book was that Paul had a deep spiritual connection with Chani, she wasn't supposed to be a supermodel. I always assumed that Princess Irulan was supposed to be more physically attractive than Chani (at least by 11th Millenium imperial standards).

    Replies: @Colin Wright

    ‘I always assumed that Princess Irulan was supposed to be more physically attractive than Chani (at least by 11th Millenium imperial standards).’

    This could be amusing. Consider, for example, all the human cultures whose ideal woman was (and in some cases, still is) immensely fat.

    So, if you want the film to reflect a truly different time and place…

  129. @TGGP
    Reading up on Herbert's inspiration in the conflict between Tsarist Russia & Muslims of the Caucusus reminded me: are there any good movies on the expansion of Tsarist Russia? There are plenty of American westerns on how the US spread from sea to shining sea despite opposition from the natives, but the only "Osterns" I'm aware of take place during the Russian Civil War of the early 20th Century with Bolsheviks as the heroes and Central Asia already supposed to be under their nominal authority. And, on a related note, I'm still curious about what technological advantage the Russians had in their wars with Persia.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @Anonymous, @Steve Sailer, @Philip Owen, @Philip Owen

    Verne’s Michael Strogoff is a book in this vein (a Western in Russia) and has been filmed several times.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Strogoff

  130. @Mike Tre
    @Steve Sailer

    Zendaya is a like another Jada Pinkett. She thinks Perma-bitch face/attitude is enough to be a good actor, when in fact she is not pretty enough to make up for her bland and flat screen presence.

    Replies: @Mina Horowitz

    Zendaya is eons prettier than Will Smith’s beard. There’s a reason Jada never amounted to much in film whereas Zendaya is getting A list lead roles like this one (she will be a huge focus in the sequel and film #3).

    I do think she’s pretty enough to convince us that Chalamet could fall in love with her, but also swarthy and earthy-looking enough that she doesn’t seem out of place among a barbaric desert tribe.

    She’s like a hotter version of Samantha Mumba in The Time Machine, another white-guy-from-another-world/time-falls-in-love-with-hot-brown-chick sci-fi film

    Also, funnily enough, despite being the biggest case of blackwashing casting in the film, she really does not look black at all. You could tell me she’s filipina, middle eastern, latina, I’d believe you. She’s like an avatar for a generic exotic girl, which is basically her character in the book.

    • Agree: Pincher Martin, Clyde
    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
    @Mina Horowitz

    I completely agree. I don't think there's anything wrong with Zendaya's look. She's both attractive enough and exotic enough to fill the role. You don't want someone who's too attractive or too Nordic-looking to play Chani.

    Like you, I wouldn't know for sure Zendaya was black unless someone told me so. Some people here are acting as if Villeneuve cast Regina King in the role. The problem is that Zendaya's acting chops don't appear to fit what small role she has been given in this first film. Perhaps that's a problem with the limited material she's been given.

    , @The Germ Theory of Disease
    @Mina Horowitz

    "despite being the biggest case of blackwashing casting in the film, she really does not look black at all."

    Here is the iron iSteve test:

    Zendaya cannot really be Black, because she appears to have hair that I actually would want to touch.

    , @Twinkie
    @Mina Horowitz

    She looks prettier in that photo than she does in the film. I guess some women don’t do deserts well.

    https://jaredmobarak.com/wp-content/filmstills/englishpatient01.jpg

  131. @Loyalty Over IQ Worship
    There's no accounting for taste. Skimming through as a preview, I see the bleak, dark, muted colors and scenes I was afraid of. And the flat, depressed, monotone speech patterns of people who look like they aren't responding to electroshock therapy.

    Do these characters even care if they live?

    My hunch is that it appeals to guys who like to do deep, lonely dives into mountains of complex data that lack meaning to most people. And the world needs such people. Although, I might suggest Prozac.

    Star Wars may have borrowed from it, but at least Lucas made his first two exciting.

    Replies: @Mina Horowitz

    My hunch is that it appeals to guys who like to do deep, lonely dives into mountains of complex data that lack meaning to most people.

    I mean that’s basically the book series but instead of data it’s religious philosophical ramblings. It’s very much turbo autist white guy catnip.

  132. Anonymous[287] • Disclaimer says:

    The typical sci-fi movie’s vision of the look of the future is whatever is coming into fashion at the time it was filmed. Hence, if you want to know which styles were au courant in a particular year in the past, just watch a sci-fi movie released the year after.

    From the song that spawned the meme:

    I wanted to do an album with the sounds of the ’50s, the sounds of the ’60s, of the ’70s, and then have a sound of the future. And I said, “Wait a second. I know the synthesizer. Why don’t I use the synthesizer which is the sound of the future?”

    And I didn’t have any idea what to do but I knew I needed a click. So, we put a click on the 24-track which then was synced to the Moog modular. I knew that it could be a sound of the future but I didn’t realize how much the impact would be.

    My name is Giovanni Giorgio, but everybody calls me Giorgio.

  133. @Anonymous
    @R.G. Camara


    Saw it, was bored by it, the colors and visuals were all muted, dark, and boring. I never read the books or saw other versions, so the story was alien to me. This reviewer is right, Zendaya was given prominence a lot in the dreams but she’s not even close to attractive enough to be some mystical It girl.
     
    Also the aesthetic overall was much more "ethnic" and less northern European. Not just Zendaya and the non-white characters, but also actors like Isaac, Bardem, etc who are very ethnic looking. I understand that characters have Greek names, it's a Mideastern setting, it's sci-fi/fantasy, etc., but it was a contrast with Lynch's more norther Euro centric version.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Dave Pinsen

    In the book, Lady Jessica describes Duke Leto as reminding her of olive trees.

    The Duke’s father was a bullfighter for fun (Spanish), the general atmosphere is lifted from Italian Renaissance Borgia vs. Medici scheming (Italian), and House Atreides is a knock of Agamemnon’s House of Atreus (Greek): i.e., Mediterranean.

    Their planet Caladan, however, is Scotland (Caledonia), although in the book it’s described in passing references as more tropical.

    Lady Jessica has bronze-colored hair and is more northern European than her consort. The movie has kind of a Macbeth air. Also, Paul is kind of Hamlet with a murdered dad and a hot mom.

    • Replies: @R.G. Camara
    @Steve Sailer


    Their planet Caladan, however, is Scotland (Caledonia), although in the book it’s described in passing references as more tropical.
     
    An ironic reference to Scotland's failed colony in Darien, Panama, aka the "Darien Scheme"?

    https://infogalactic.com/info/Darien_scheme
    , @Twinkie
    @Steve Sailer


    Their planet Caladan, however, is Scotland (Caledonia), although in the book it’s described in passing references as more tropical.
     
    Caladan’s main crop and export item is the Pundi rice. Also prominent is cattle. I think ecologically Caladan is supposed to be more Southeast Asia or even India than Scotland.

    Lady Jessica
     
    How could you stand all that weeping from Jessica in the new film? What happened to all the Prana-Bindu training she had as a Bene Gesserit?

    The new movie was disappointing at so many levels… I prefer Lynch’s version + the Sci-fi sequel “The Children of Dune.”
  134. @AaronB
    @Pat Hannagan

    I agree with you that South Korea is making superior television these days.

    But what they are producing hardly points to a healthy society - something has clearly gone very, very wrong in Korea that they are making Squid Games and Parasite and many similar things.

    Incidentally, these shows are huge in the US - indicating there is something wrong across the industrialized world.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon

    Is there anything on television in America that is wholesome? Even worse perhaps is mainstream popular music, which seems to be uniformly degenerate and evil. Compare that to the 70’s: ABBA, Olivia Newton John, Linda Ronstadt, John Denver, etc.

    • Replies: @R.G. Camara
    @Mr. Anon

    Snark and anti-family began on American TV with the Rural Purge of the late 60s/early 1970s. When The Brady Bunch hit the airwaves in the 1970s, it was so wholesome and throwback that half the viewing audience was watching it ironically.

    , @Steve Sailer
    @Mr. Anon

    Compare that to the 70’s: ABBA, Olivia Newton John, Linda Ronstadt, John Denver, etc.

    Rolling Stones, Bowie, Alice Cooper, Donna Summer, etc etc.

    In general, movies are at least as wholesome nowadays than in the 1970s, at least until Star Wars came along. The rise of porn since then meant that feature movies aren't very titillating anymore.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon

    , @AaronB
    @Mr. Anon

    I'm just pointing out that it's ludicrous to say that Korea is a healthy, ethnically cohesive society when everything they're making lately is about how ruthlessly competitive, evil, and divided their society is.

    It's almost as if ethnic cohesion doesn't mean the rich won't pitilessly exploit the poor and that class division won't be absolutely terrible, and that the problem might be society and the modern world and not race.

  135. @Pixo
    @Pincher Martin

    I probably read 10 movie reviews for every movie I watch (1-2 a month)

    It takes about 90 seconds on average since I often skim digressions and spoilers. And it saves time since a boring movie is a waste. A good way to find a movie is pick a random year on RogerEbert.com and then read all the four star movie reviews until I find one that I haven’t seen and that sounds interesting.

    EasyNews.com has a much better selection and is cheaper than Netflix, including all recent releases in 4K, but you have to be moderately tech literate and have your PC linked to a movie quality monitor.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

    I used to read a lot of reviews, too, but not of movies I had no intention of seeing.

  136. @Steve Sailer
    @Anonymous

    In the book, Lady Jessica describes Duke Leto as reminding her of olive trees.

    The Duke's father was a bullfighter for fun (Spanish), the general atmosphere is lifted from Italian Renaissance Borgia vs. Medici scheming (Italian), and House Atreides is a knock of Agamemnon's House of Atreus (Greek): i.e., Mediterranean.

    Their planet Caladan, however, is Scotland (Caledonia), although in the book it's described in passing references as more tropical.

    Lady Jessica has bronze-colored hair and is more northern European than her consort. The movie has kind of a Macbeth air. Also, Paul is kind of Hamlet with a murdered dad and a hot mom.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara, @Twinkie

    Their planet Caladan, however, is Scotland (Caledonia), although in the book it’s described in passing references as more tropical.

    An ironic reference to Scotland’s failed colony in Darien, Panama, aka the “Darien Scheme”?

    https://infogalactic.com/info/Darien_scheme

  137. @Mina Horowitz
    @Mike Tre

    Zendaya is eons prettier than Will Smith's beard. There's a reason Jada never amounted to much in film whereas Zendaya is getting A list lead roles like this one (she will be a huge focus in the sequel and film #3).

    I do think she's pretty enough to convince us that Chalamet could fall in love with her, but also swarthy and earthy-looking enough that she doesn't seem out of place among a barbaric desert tribe.

    https://www.essence.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Zendaya-IG4-e1557852651906.png

    She's like a hotter version of Samantha Mumba in The Time Machine, another white-guy-from-another-world/time-falls-in-love-with-hot-brown-chick sci-fi film

    Also, funnily enough, despite being the biggest case of blackwashing casting in the film, she really does not look black at all. You could tell me she's filipina, middle eastern, latina, I'd believe you. She's like an avatar for a generic exotic girl, which is basically her character in the book.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin, @The Germ Theory of Disease, @Twinkie

    I completely agree. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with Zendaya’s look. She’s both attractive enough and exotic enough to fill the role. You don’t want someone who’s too attractive or too Nordic-looking to play Chani.

    Like you, I wouldn’t know for sure Zendaya was black unless someone told me so. Some people here are acting as if Villeneuve cast Regina King in the role. The problem is that Zendaya’s acting chops don’t appear to fit what small role she has been given in this first film. Perhaps that’s a problem with the limited material she’s been given.

  138. @Mr. Anon
    @AaronB

    Is there anything on television in America that is wholesome? Even worse perhaps is mainstream popular music, which seems to be uniformly degenerate and evil. Compare that to the 70's: ABBA, Olivia Newton John, Linda Ronstadt, John Denver, etc.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara, @Steve Sailer, @AaronB

    Snark and anti-family began on American TV with the Rural Purge of the late 60s/early 1970s. When The Brady Bunch hit the airwaves in the 1970s, it was so wholesome and throwback that half the viewing audience was watching it ironically.

  139. @R.G. Camara
    @Reg Cæsar

    There's a distinction in scifi between "hard science fiction" (which is highly technical and tries to get the science right) and "soft science fiction" which is more socio-political commentary set in space or the far future.

    https://infogalactic.com/info/Hard_science_fiction

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    “hard science fiction” (which is highly technical and tries to get the science right)

    Then the Miss Pickerell books were “hard”, youth-oriented as they were. The science was solid and up-to-date. Perhaps that’s why, after the original author died, it took the publishers a whole decade to find a new writer of the same skill to carry on the series.

  140. @Pat Hannagan
    @Jim Christian

    Spot on.

    I bypass all the movie reviews, especially the Trevor Lynch stuff, but half-hearted started reading this to only run out of steam two thirds the way through through the promo.

    The events of the world right now are all the dystopian sci-fi novels of the 20th century come to life. Who has the need or desire to watch a fantasy film, isn't reality enough?

    I think what astounds me the most is the lack of urgency, or even feigned interest, by some of the finest minds on the internet. Here we have a deadset bonus gift of statistics in covid-19 for the statistically minded to feast upon, yet all we get are movie reviews?

    If one wants to get all film literate I'd like to discuss why the South Koreans are pumping out the best movies and serial TV at the moment. From Parasite, to Train to Busan, the brilliant Kingdom and now their latest in Squid Game. Some of the best examinations of modern life you'll find, far and away superior to Judeo-American dross. I'd hazard a guess and say it's because the South Koreans are still a people largely in control of their own ethnic destiny, whereas our movies are spawned from an alien race who hates us.

    They have Kia and Hyundai, a national sense of self based on their own ethnic image which they portray and examine in their art, we get re-makes and mulligans on old work done badly with heaping helpings of Woke horseshit.

    Replies: @fish, @AaronB, @Pixo, @Jim Christian, @anonymous coward, @Thoughts, @Chrisnonymous

    SK’s are producing the best movies? I didn’t mean to delude, just ask why the focus on one chick. SKs? Who watches their shit, or even reviews it? What’s S. Korea got, K-Pop? Kia? Hyundai? Shittiest cars on the planet. SKs? They could be immolated throughout Seoul with Nork artillery. What’s SK to do but hurl Hyundai and Kia? And K-Pop?

  141. @Anonymous
    @R.G. Camara


    Saw it, was bored by it, the colors and visuals were all muted, dark, and boring. I never read the books or saw other versions, so the story was alien to me. This reviewer is right, Zendaya was given prominence a lot in the dreams but she’s not even close to attractive enough to be some mystical It girl.
     
    Also the aesthetic overall was much more "ethnic" and less northern European. Not just Zendaya and the non-white characters, but also actors like Isaac, Bardem, etc who are very ethnic looking. I understand that characters have Greek names, it's a Mideastern setting, it's sci-fi/fantasy, etc., but it was a contrast with Lynch's more norther Euro centric version.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Dave Pinsen

    Lynch having the Fremen leader Stilgar played by Everett McGill with dirt on his face was kind of silly.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Dave Pinsen


    Lynch having the Fremen leader Stilgar played by Everett McGill with dirt on his face was kind of silly.
     
    But McGill sounded operatic in Lynch’s film as did most major actors in it. He didn’t mumble like he was constipated (that’d be Javier Bardem in the new version). Also Bardem’s face looks much too “water rich.” The Fremen are supposed to be emaciated and dehydrated looking.

    Replies: @Trevor Lynch, @Dave Pinsen

  142. @Buzz Mohawk
    @Almost Missouri


    ... protecting the modesty of the wearer, who was in a sense property. The Lady Jessica character, as a concubine, is also a kind of slave/property...
     
    Sure. Even here in the West we have our modern-day equivalents.


    https://i.pinimg.com/236x/fd/6c/0d/fd6c0d5a97ecaa32019cfa7e0072c734--slave-girl-corset.jpg


    Nothing to see here, folks. Just protecting the modesty of a concubine. Move along...

    Replies: @El Dato, @Joe S.Walker, @Chrisnonymous

    On topic response: in the Lynch film, Francesca Annis was much more convincingly gagged than Rebecca Ferguson is.

  143. @Mina Horowitz
    @Mike Tre

    Zendaya is eons prettier than Will Smith's beard. There's a reason Jada never amounted to much in film whereas Zendaya is getting A list lead roles like this one (she will be a huge focus in the sequel and film #3).

    I do think she's pretty enough to convince us that Chalamet could fall in love with her, but also swarthy and earthy-looking enough that she doesn't seem out of place among a barbaric desert tribe.

    https://www.essence.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Zendaya-IG4-e1557852651906.png

    She's like a hotter version of Samantha Mumba in The Time Machine, another white-guy-from-another-world/time-falls-in-love-with-hot-brown-chick sci-fi film

    Also, funnily enough, despite being the biggest case of blackwashing casting in the film, she really does not look black at all. You could tell me she's filipina, middle eastern, latina, I'd believe you. She's like an avatar for a generic exotic girl, which is basically her character in the book.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin, @The Germ Theory of Disease, @Twinkie

    “despite being the biggest case of blackwashing casting in the film, she really does not look black at all.”

    Here is the iron iSteve test:

    Zendaya cannot really be Black, because she appears to have hair that I actually would want to touch.

  144. @Buzz Mohawk
    @Alfa158

    It's always good to learn from women what to wear. As heterosexual men, we don't really know. They do. I've been there too, my friend.

    Replies: @Colin Wright, @Reg Cæsar, @Stan d Mute

    It’s always good to learn from women what to wear. As heterosexual men, we don’t really know. They do. I’ve been there too, my friend.

    Spoken like a true boomer beta. Wow!

    Women don’t give a crap about what you wear as long as you are pounding them all night long. If they can’t walk properly the next day, do you think they are discussing your choice of Dockers versus whatever else you boomers were wearing? Seriously?

    Never has any generation been so stupid. I just watched a video of an Arab laughing hysterically at you all for only having one wife. And little did the Arab know that you couldn’t even satisfy her..

    Masculinity is dead. I see absolutely no evidence of it beyond Gen-X. It died with us.

  145. @Steve Sailer
    @Anonymous

    In the book, Lady Jessica describes Duke Leto as reminding her of olive trees.

    The Duke's father was a bullfighter for fun (Spanish), the general atmosphere is lifted from Italian Renaissance Borgia vs. Medici scheming (Italian), and House Atreides is a knock of Agamemnon's House of Atreus (Greek): i.e., Mediterranean.

    Their planet Caladan, however, is Scotland (Caledonia), although in the book it's described in passing references as more tropical.

    Lady Jessica has bronze-colored hair and is more northern European than her consort. The movie has kind of a Macbeth air. Also, Paul is kind of Hamlet with a murdered dad and a hot mom.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara, @Twinkie

    Their planet Caladan, however, is Scotland (Caledonia), although in the book it’s described in passing references as more tropical.

    Caladan’s main crop and export item is the Pundi rice. Also prominent is cattle. I think ecologically Caladan is supposed to be more Southeast Asia or even India than Scotland.

    Lady Jessica

    How could you stand all that weeping from Jessica in the new film? What happened to all the Prana-Bindu training she had as a Bene Gesserit?

    The new movie was disappointing at so many levels… I prefer Lynch’s version + the Sci-fi sequel “The Children of Dune.”

  146. @Alfa158
    @Wilkey

    Unattractive seems to have become a stand in for “this is a work of art”, but that is the current cultural zeitgeist. For the last century ugliness as art has been one of the tools for demolishing a civilization so it can be replaced with a new one.
    The Expanse is an excellent series, but I finally realized that even the actors who are attractive people ( and there is no shortage of genuinely ugly actors in the series) are being consciously made to look as unattractive as possible. Unflattering lighting, ugly makeup, dirt and grime, wide angle lenses for close-ups on faces, weird hair, etc. The one character I have seen who was depicted as conventionally cute was Holden’s original girlfriend who appeared briefly in the first episode and was immediately killed off and replaced with a homely “British” actress.

    Replies: @dimples

    Yes Naomi Nagata with her squashed nose and endless whining was a real turn-off. I have no desire to watch the final series of The Expanse thanks.

  147. @Mina Horowitz
    @Mike Tre

    Zendaya is eons prettier than Will Smith's beard. There's a reason Jada never amounted to much in film whereas Zendaya is getting A list lead roles like this one (she will be a huge focus in the sequel and film #3).

    I do think she's pretty enough to convince us that Chalamet could fall in love with her, but also swarthy and earthy-looking enough that she doesn't seem out of place among a barbaric desert tribe.

    https://www.essence.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Zendaya-IG4-e1557852651906.png

    She's like a hotter version of Samantha Mumba in The Time Machine, another white-guy-from-another-world/time-falls-in-love-with-hot-brown-chick sci-fi film

    Also, funnily enough, despite being the biggest case of blackwashing casting in the film, she really does not look black at all. You could tell me she's filipina, middle eastern, latina, I'd believe you. She's like an avatar for a generic exotic girl, which is basically her character in the book.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin, @The Germ Theory of Disease, @Twinkie

    She looks prettier in that photo than she does in the film. I guess some women don’t do deserts well.

  148. @Charles Pewitt
    Rebecca Ferguson is Swedish and Scottish. The Swedes had a Viking settlement on the Delaware River diagonally opposite the Dutch who were on the Hudson River in what became the state of New Jersey and there are still a good amount of people with Swede and Dutch ancestry in New Jersey.

    New Jersey, like New Hampshire, had pockets of Scotch-Irish here and there and Rebecca Ferguson is a beautiful lady with a nice figure who you could imagine seeing in the mid-Atlantic region of the USA.

    I like her because she is of average height -- 5 feet 5 inches tall -- and she has solid acting craft skills that she must have acquired by plenty of work and God-given talent.

    OFF TOPIC

    Attention Steve Sailer:

    How about some blog posts on this Federal Reserve Bank asset bubble in stocks and bonds and real estate and other assets?

    Elon Musk is laughing all the way to every bank imaginable with his asset bubble loot piling up sky high.

    https://twitter.com/NorthmanTrader/status/1452940691487723527?s=20

    https://twitter.com/NorthmanTrader/status/1452717973672710144?s=20

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist

    Rebecca Ferguson is luminous in the BBC-produced, War of the Roses-themed, TV series ‘The White Queen’.

    • Agree: Twinkie
  149. @Dave Pinsen
    @Anonymous

    Lynch having the Fremen leader Stilgar played by Everett McGill with dirt on his face was kind of silly.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    Lynch having the Fremen leader Stilgar played by Everett McGill with dirt on his face was kind of silly.

    But McGill sounded operatic in Lynch’s film as did most major actors in it. He didn’t mumble like he was constipated (that’d be Javier Bardem in the new version). Also Bardem’s face looks much too “water rich.” The Fremen are supposed to be emaciated and dehydrated looking.

    • Replies: @Trevor Lynch
    @Twinkie


    Bardem’s face looks much too “water rich.” The Fremen are supposed to be emaciated and dehydrated looking.
     
    That's a good point, and a nice way of saying he got fat.
    , @Dave Pinsen
    @Twinkie

    He did have sort of a Charlton Heston vibe. Maybe that’s what Lynch was going for. Lynch’s Anglo-Germanic Fremen also brought to mind Khan’s crew from Star Trek II.

  150. @Reg Cæsar
    @Buzz Mohawk

    It’s always good to learn from women what to wear. As heterosexual men, we don’t really know. They do. I’ve been there too, my friend.




    https://youtu.be/npAhoaG20bc

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

    “Try a little tenderness” is right.

    The problem for us men is how to balance that with the roughness women also want. Sometimes it’s this; sometimes it’s that. The best strategy is to just do what comes naturally and hope that chance, random occurrence, will even it all out.

    And to listen to her.

    She wants both sides of you.

    You just sometimes don’t know which one. Don’t overthink it. God prepared you for this, and her for this. Just do it and let the chips fall… We wouldn’t be here if they didn’t more often fall where you want them to, and where she does too.

    Gee, don’t I sound wise? LOL

    • Agree: Captain Tripps
    • Replies: @Captain Tripps
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Excellent comment; what the Ancients in the Before Times called "common sense".

  151. @Dave Pinsen
    @Steve Sailer

    Zendaya is still sort of pretty when she's dolled up with professional hair & makeup, but desert messy doesn't suit her, and neither does proximity to Rebecca Ferguson.

    Maybe a better casting choice for Chani, if they had to make her mixed-race, would have been Hailee Steinfeld.

    https://www.hawtcelebs.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/hailee-steinfeld-at-buzzfeed-s-am-to-dm-in-new-york-11-01-2019-3.jpg

    Replies: @Franz, @S. Anonyia, @John Milton's Ghost, @guest007, @theMann, @Steve Sailer

    Hailee Steinfeld has “Dune” level diction as well. The Coens auditioned hundreds of adolescent actresses for “True Grit” before finding in her somebody who could handle the elaborate 19th Century dialogue.

    • Agree: Dave Pinsen
  152. @Anon
    There are a lot of people allegedly familiar with the source material on this thread that either are lying, aren't very close readers, or they are dim.

    The movie was as close to the source material as it could be. Its faults lie largely in an inability to fit everything in: The conspiracy story about how Jessica was suspected to be a traitor, for example, would have provided much more character context to all of them. But there just wasn't room for it. As such the arc of Yueh's betrayal doesn't carry as much weight as it should have.

    But the casting? Aside from the Kynes swap-- about which I was a little annoyed, but it turns out it mostly doesn't matter-- everyone else is fine. Chalemet is slight and wet behind the ears? He's supposed to be. Chani and other Fremen are dark-skinned? These are people that live in a harsh desert, and Herbert certainly implied they were at least dusky with all the Turkish and Arabic references.

    And the biggest misfire is at the top of the thread: An alleged fan said the bull was annoying? That fan is either bad at reading, or a moron. The bull is very important, and the exact sort of thing a less faithful director would miss.

    Contra what some people are saying here, fans of the book actually adore the movie. Maybe some weird fans in personal circles that think Sean Freaking Young makes a good desert rat are disappointed. But most fans I know have trouble imagining how the film could have been done better given Hollywood constraints.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Pericles, @Twinkie

    Well said.

  153. @pyrrhus
    iSteve, the Harkonen couldn't exterminate the sandworms, because the worms made the priceless spice...Essentially, Dune exists to harvest the worms' waste...The movie doesn't explain how interstellar travel could reach Dune before the spice was known...

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Peter Akuleyev

    iSteve, the Harkonen couldn’t exterminate the sandworms, because the worms made the priceless spice…

    That’s why that would be ironic.

    The movie doesn’t explain how interstellar travel could reach Dune before the spice was known…

    Yeah, I have that in my notes. You could fix that problem with a line about how the spice makes interstellar travel affordable, but then there are other lines about how the Spacing Guild’s monopoly makes travel extremely expensive. The Spacing Guild seems to exist in this novel to keep the Harkonnen from putting spy satellites up over Dune, although I’m sure more elaborate explanations are provided in the various sequels.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @Steve Sailer

    Oh, geeze, why not just have Zephram Cochrane invent warp speed travel?

  154. @TWS
    The fight scenes were just ok. Lady Jessica was a shivering cringing mouse, which you should have noticed was very different from the book.

    You really had any trouble keeping Gurney Hallack and Duncan Idaho separate in your head? I'm sure the similar, height, weight, complexion, hair, body language and speech patterns made the characters indistinguishable to the casual viewer.

    You didn't mention Feyd a major character in the first novel. I'm sure the director kept him out as the character served to highlight the Baron's homosexuality and deviancy. My guess is the director doesn't want to solidify the common perception of homosexual men as being creepy and pedos.

    Kynes was totally miscast, as was Chani.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    The evil Baron’s other nephew, who is like one of those unpopular Roman emperors like Caligula, Nero, and especially Commodus, only appears well into the book and isn’t introduced in the movie. The book doesn’t have much about the brutal nephew Rabban, but the movie expands his role slightly. Wrestler Dave Bautista is pretty good, as he usually is in sci-fi movies.

    • Replies: @TWS
    @Steve Sailer

    Batista did fill the beast part well. A blunt instrument for Feyd to play off. However, I thought Feyd was in scenes before the whole chapter where he fought the gladiator. That's where Herbert established Feyd was learning to play the game.

  155. @SafeNow
    Would an ancient person like me enjoy Dune? Or should I just watch an old movie, or a Columbo, or for sci fi an original Star Trek. I would estimate that over the past 20 years, 20 new movies have come along that I would call, to use Steve’s term, “magnificent.” I could say the same thing about modern art, literature, and music having unraveled, to this ancient sensibility..

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    The novel is pretty ancient in sensibility, from the 1960s, and the movie is pretty true to the book.

  156. @Wilkey
    @Buzz Mohawk


    It is curious, for example, that Sailer does not appear to care much about how the imaginary world of Dune is European and Middle Eastern, whereas Lynch is all over it. It would seem the implications are there, as Lynch at least touches upon.
     
    To be fair, the parallels between the Dune universe and current and historical events on Earth seem almost a little too obvious. Herbert didn't really try all that hard to hide them. Caladan (=Caledonia=Scotland) is a stand-in for the gentler colonial powers, like Great Britain. They even played the Atreides army off the ship with bagpipes.. The Harkonnen are more like the Belgians. The Fremen are, in turn, either space Muslims or space Jews (in the books they seem a bit of an amalgam), and Paul is a cross between T.E. Lawrence and Jesus. And, of course, the spice is some super awesome combination of oil and every great hallucinogen known to man.

    Replies: @SunBakedSuburb, @Steve Sailer

    I was thinking about oil in the Middle East and I don’t think spice and Arrakis is that close of an analogy. The oil industry can be environmentally destructive around water, but in the desert, not so much. I suspect Herbert was thinking more about metal mining in Indian lands in the West, such as gold and silver. Gold mining usually uses nasty stuff like mercury.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @Steve Sailer


    Gold mining usually uses nasty stuff like mercury.
     
    Yes, and gold mining, like that for silver and many other useful metals, never really hurt that many people, or sand snails or any other species for that matter.

    Mining is what built the great State of Colorado, and things seem to be going fine there -- in fact with the slimmest, healthiest, most sporty people in the whole damned country.

    Mining my ass.

    This is why I say authors and such don't know shit about what they write.

    , @Buzz Mohawk
    @Steve Sailer

    My other comment/reply to you on this is stupid. Sorry Steve. If I ever sound too harsh against you, I don't really mean to be.

  157. @Steve Sailer
    @pyrrhus

    iSteve, the Harkonen couldn’t exterminate the sandworms, because the worms made the priceless spice…

    That's why that would be ironic.

    The movie doesn’t explain how interstellar travel could reach Dune before the spice was known…

    Yeah, I have that in my notes. You could fix that problem with a line about how the spice makes interstellar travel affordable, but then there are other lines about how the Spacing Guild's monopoly makes travel extremely expensive. The Spacing Guild seems to exist in this novel to keep the Harkonnen from putting spy satellites up over Dune, although I'm sure more elaborate explanations are provided in the various sequels.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

    Oh, geeze, why not just have Zephram Cochrane invent warp speed travel?

  158. @Steve Sailer
    @Wilkey

    I was thinking about oil in the Middle East and I don't think spice and Arrakis is that close of an analogy. The oil industry can be environmentally destructive around water, but in the desert, not so much. I suspect Herbert was thinking more about metal mining in Indian lands in the West, such as gold and silver. Gold mining usually uses nasty stuff like mercury.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @Buzz Mohawk

    Gold mining usually uses nasty stuff like mercury.

    Yes, and gold mining, like that for silver and many other useful metals, never really hurt that many people, or sand snails or any other species for that matter.

    Mining is what built the great State of Colorado, and things seem to be going fine there — in fact with the slimmest, healthiest, most sporty people in the whole damned country.

    Mining my ass.

    This is why I say authors and such don’t know shit about what they write.

  159. @pyrrhus
    @Steve Sailer

    Yes, very closely indeed....I would have liked to see them improve the implausible Harkonen takeover/treacherous doctor lets down shields section a little...

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Yeah, the Dr. Yueh stuff was pretty perfunctory in both the book and movie.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @Steve Sailer

    Can you now begin to see why all this is just a bit too much contrived? Why it has been from the beginning?

    Here you are, wasting your time on another author's excrement. You are wasting your time. You are better and more original than this.

    You might as well be writing reviews of ABBA albums from the 1970s. (Hey, they're baaaack! You can be too!)

    Any sufficiently talented writer can create a totally unimportant waste of time, imaginary world. The question is how many people will bother to read it, and which Hollywood producers will bother to make movies of it, and then which reviewers and bloggers will actually post their own interpretations of it.

    , @The Germ Theory of Disease
    @Steve Sailer

    "the Dr. Yueh stuff was pretty perfunctory in both the book and movie."

    It's pretty much ALL perfunctory, except for the concepts and ideas, which are pretty original (space travel as metaphysical rather than physical, mentats as substitutes for computers, the gom jabbar).

    It's nothing but a mashup of stock dynastic power struggles combined with your typical Chosen One routine. The characters are nearly all stock, the scenarios are stock, there isn't a single real emotional jolt or surprise in the whole thing (there's a reason Dr. Yueh's betrayal packs no punch -- his character is made of tissue paper, and so are the people he betrays.)

    Compare LoTR, which is stuffed to the gills with one memorable character after another, and odd, unexpected things like Tom Bombadil, Galadriel, and the Ents.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  160. @Pincher Martin
    @Anon

    Well, the dream sequences don't give Chani that much more screen time. Maybe two minutes at the most. So if what you're saying is the case, the director could have easily extended the end of the film by five minutes with more interaction between Paul and Chani. It would've been a better film, too. The first encounter between Paul and Chani is not given enough attention in this movie.

    One of the dream sequences - more like a drug-induced hallucination - interrupts what should be one of the most exciting scenes in the movie. When a sandworm barrels toward on a spice-mining vehicle, Duke Leto, Paul, and others, who were watching above from a thopter, swoop down to save the men. When Paul gets out to help direct the rescue, the spice in the desert causes him to hallucinate a vision of the future. During his hallucination, he sees Chani's face. Again. (I think this is already the third time in the film he sees her.)

    Unfortunately, this spice-induced vision disrupts what should've been a pretty good scene of Paul's first encounter with a sandworm and its destructive powers.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Yeah, in general I think the movie suffered from too much cross-cutting rather than just let the action play out in what should be big set-piece scenes like the rescue of the spice-trawler crew.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
    @Steve Sailer

    Here's another example of how Paul's dreams and visions interfered with the story in the movie.

    Just before Paul duels with the Fremen Jamis at the end of the film, he has a vision of the upcoming fight. The vision shows the knife fight in slow motion, ending with Paul's death and a blade dripped in blood.

    What was Villeneuve's purpose in showing this vision? I suppose one could say it adds dramatic tension to the upcoming fight for those few film viewers who aren't sure Paul will live through it. But it certainly didn't add any dramatic tension for anyone else.

    Did it look good? No, the fight in Paul's vision is shown in slow motion, which almost never looks good. (The ensuring real fight is also nothing special. Villeneuve might be able to direct pretty films, but he can't do fight scenes at all.)

    Jamis appears in a couple of Paul's other visions as well. Or at least I think it's Jamis. Perhaps it's some other Nigerian-looking Fremen who has yet to be introduced. The one scene with the Jamis-looking character that I remember with some clarity is when Paul flies the thopter into a sandstorm to escape the Harkonnens pursuing him and his mother. The winds start to violently buffet the thopter's wings and it seems as if the small craft is doomed.

    Paul then has a vision of what appears to be Jamis, a man he has yet to meet and will kill as soon as he does meet him. In the vision, Jamis explains to Paul that he must let things happen in the desert (or something along those lines). Paul awakes from his reverie and draws in his thopter's wings, letting the storm take control of the craft. They survive the storm.

    Perhaps this detail is all in the novel. I can't say because it's been more than a decade since I last read Dune. But it was more distracting in the film than it was anything else. Villeneuve should've discarded most of it.

    Replies: @Anon

  161. @Pat Hannagan
    @Jim Christian

    Spot on.

    I bypass all the movie reviews, especially the Trevor Lynch stuff, but half-hearted started reading this to only run out of steam two thirds the way through through the promo.

    The events of the world right now are all the dystopian sci-fi novels of the 20th century come to life. Who has the need or desire to watch a fantasy film, isn't reality enough?

    I think what astounds me the most is the lack of urgency, or even feigned interest, by some of the finest minds on the internet. Here we have a deadset bonus gift of statistics in covid-19 for the statistically minded to feast upon, yet all we get are movie reviews?

    If one wants to get all film literate I'd like to discuss why the South Koreans are pumping out the best movies and serial TV at the moment. From Parasite, to Train to Busan, the brilliant Kingdom and now their latest in Squid Game. Some of the best examinations of modern life you'll find, far and away superior to Judeo-American dross. I'd hazard a guess and say it's because the South Koreans are still a people largely in control of their own ethnic destiny, whereas our movies are spawned from an alien race who hates us.

    They have Kia and Hyundai, a national sense of self based on their own ethnic image which they portray and examine in their art, we get re-makes and mulligans on old work done badly with heaping helpings of Woke horseshit.

    Replies: @fish, @AaronB, @Pixo, @Jim Christian, @anonymous coward, @Thoughts, @Chrisnonymous

    Here we have a deadset bonus gift of statistics in covid-19 for the statistically minded to feast upon

    Don’t go there. I’ve seen professional antisemites and decades-long Hitler fanboys suddenly get completely banned from the Internet for doubting vaxx efficacy.

    This is serious business and you’re playing with real fire now.

  162. @TGGP
    Reading up on Herbert's inspiration in the conflict between Tsarist Russia & Muslims of the Caucusus reminded me: are there any good movies on the expansion of Tsarist Russia? There are plenty of American westerns on how the US spread from sea to shining sea despite opposition from the natives, but the only "Osterns" I'm aware of take place during the Russian Civil War of the early 20th Century with Bolsheviks as the heroes and Central Asia already supposed to be under their nominal authority. And, on a related note, I'm still curious about what technological advantage the Russians had in their wars with Persia.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @Anonymous, @Steve Sailer, @Philip Owen, @Philip Owen

    One of Peter Turchin’s books starts with an exciting chapter of history on the Russian frontier and it struck me that I was over 50 years old before I’d ever really even thought about the Russian drive east. I have some picture in my head of Russians in Alaska and Northern California, but not of Czarist Russians subduing Siberia.

    Long ago, I bought Tolstoy’s short novel about a Caucasian warlord but didn’t read it.

    • Replies: @S Johnson
    @Steve Sailer

    I read “The Cossacks” a few years back. As I remember it’s more of a personal story of discovery, not trying to give a panoramic view of the time like in his later novels, though there is some material on the differences between the urban, exogamous Russians and border-dwelling, endogamous Cossacks; not quite as much on the Muslim Chechens. The protagonist goes to the Caucasus to seek a purer life a bit like Thoreau went to Walden. Wikipedia says that Tolstoy wanted to rewrite it completely after reading the Iliad, so I imagine he would have made it more panoramic and political, but he went ahead and published it after losing a lot of money at cards.

  163. @Steve Sailer
    @pyrrhus

    Yeah, the Dr. Yueh stuff was pretty perfunctory in both the book and movie.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @The Germ Theory of Disease

    Can you now begin to see why all this is just a bit too much contrived? Why it has been from the beginning?

    Here you are, wasting your time on another author’s excrement. You are wasting your time. You are better and more original than this.

    You might as well be writing reviews of ABBA albums from the 1970s. (Hey, they’re baaaack! You can be too!)

    Any sufficiently talented writer can create a totally unimportant waste of time, imaginary world. The question is how many people will bother to read it, and which Hollywood producers will bother to make movies of it, and then which reviewers and bloggers will actually post their own interpretations of it.

  164. @Pat Hannagan
    @Jim Christian

    Spot on.

    I bypass all the movie reviews, especially the Trevor Lynch stuff, but half-hearted started reading this to only run out of steam two thirds the way through through the promo.

    The events of the world right now are all the dystopian sci-fi novels of the 20th century come to life. Who has the need or desire to watch a fantasy film, isn't reality enough?

    I think what astounds me the most is the lack of urgency, or even feigned interest, by some of the finest minds on the internet. Here we have a deadset bonus gift of statistics in covid-19 for the statistically minded to feast upon, yet all we get are movie reviews?

    If one wants to get all film literate I'd like to discuss why the South Koreans are pumping out the best movies and serial TV at the moment. From Parasite, to Train to Busan, the brilliant Kingdom and now their latest in Squid Game. Some of the best examinations of modern life you'll find, far and away superior to Judeo-American dross. I'd hazard a guess and say it's because the South Koreans are still a people largely in control of their own ethnic destiny, whereas our movies are spawned from an alien race who hates us.

    They have Kia and Hyundai, a national sense of self based on their own ethnic image which they portray and examine in their art, we get re-makes and mulligans on old work done badly with heaping helpings of Woke horseshit.

    Replies: @fish, @AaronB, @Pixo, @Jim Christian, @anonymous coward, @Thoughts, @Chrisnonymous

    Has Unz banned Steve from talking about anything related to Covid?

    Or Steve got the vaccine and is sitting in his closet office saying ‘Mandates are good, I got it and I’m fine…I like Tyranny. More Tyranny! *eats pistachios*

    There was some woke s**t in Squid Games…the whole ‘People are Equal Here’ and The Ali Character

    The People are Equal Here speech the Front Man gave made me vomit all over my living room floor, I even thought “Oh God, Not the Koreans Too!”

    The answer is easy…

    To be a writer in Hollywood you have to be accepted by the Jews which means you have to be a limp wristed Ninny

    Add in the fact that American Christians unwittingly with their “No harsh honest talk allowed, we are all nice little sycophants” give more power to the Jews and their Gatekeeping

    Then you just don’t get fun personalities getting into high up spots in life

  165. @Buzz Mohawk
    @Alfa158

    My father told me about seeing Korean families in little boats trying to get across the 38th parallel, off the coast, during that war. He was the engineer, third in command, on a US Navy destroyer.

    All those people wanted to do was get back together with their relatives, and my Dad could see that.

    Meanwhile, his ship was shelling the coastline to provide cover for retreating American troops who probably shouldn't have been there at all.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @Steve Sailer

    Probably saved Jerry Pournelle’s life. Jerry’s squad escaped the Chinese assault on the Chosin (sp?) reservoir in North Korea and fled south. Finally, they came within range of the US Navy’s guns and for the first time in weeks a million Chinamen weren’t trying to kill him, which made him very happy.

    • Thanks: Buzz Mohawk
    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @Steve Sailer

    Thank you, Steve. This means something to me.

    My father, I guess like a lot of men from his generation, did not talk a lot about those times. He just described this thing to me over a steak dinner one night in his/our house (the one in the Rocky Mountains I eventually inherited) and his point really was all about those Korean families he felt sorry for. He could see them.

    What I gleaned about the rest of it is beyond the point he was making. Until recent years, I had no idea how historic his experience was, and I didn't realize how many American lives he and his crew were saving.

    Thank you.

  166. @Simon
    @Pericles

    I was lucky enough to watch a few scenes of David Lynch’s Dune being filmed down in Mexico City, and recall that Young (really gorgeous, I agree, though not with that stillsuit gear up her nose) behaved a bit like a schoolgirl verging on a discipline problem, to Lynch’s obvious annoyance. At one point, after a take involving a huge crowd scene, everyone stayed patiently in costume except her. She immediately tore open the top of her stillsuit, raised her arms, and twisted back and forth in an attention-seeking way, as if overcome with heat. (Well, I’m sure that outfit really was pretty warm — but everyone else remained immobile.) Lynch had to say something like “We’re all waiting for you, Sean,” and indeed everyone had to wait while she zipped up her costume again, before he could do the next take.

    Replies: @Pericles

    Lol, I’m sure Lynch hated having to be the responsible dad type at that point. “I’m the narcissistic genius who just does what he likes, not her. Why am I even here??”

  167. @Mr. Anon
    @AaronB

    Is there anything on television in America that is wholesome? Even worse perhaps is mainstream popular music, which seems to be uniformly degenerate and evil. Compare that to the 70's: ABBA, Olivia Newton John, Linda Ronstadt, John Denver, etc.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara, @Steve Sailer, @AaronB

    Compare that to the 70’s: ABBA, Olivia Newton John, Linda Ronstadt, John Denver, etc.

    Rolling Stones, Bowie, Alice Cooper, Donna Summer, etc etc.

    In general, movies are at least as wholesome nowadays than in the 1970s, at least until Star Wars came along. The rise of porn since then meant that feature movies aren’t very titillating anymore.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    @Steve Sailer



    Compare that to the 70’s: ABBA, Olivia Newton John, Linda Ronstadt, John Denver, etc.
     
    Rolling Stones, Bowie, Alice Cooper, Donna Summer, etc etc.
     
    Sure you had that (and even that wasn't as outre as what is out there now) but you had the other too. There actually were wholesome songs all over the top 40 charts. What are the equivalents today? Katy Perry? Lady Gaga? Now it is all of it degenerate crap. The music awards shows are now presented as occult rituals, sometimes with overt satanic content.
  168. @Enemy of Earth
    Okay, I now withdraw my wish that someone would make a film based on William Gibson's Neuromancer.

    Replies: @El Dato, @Pericles

    Lol, have you seen Johnny Mnemonic? A reminder that film making is a delicate thing, one of those O-ring technologies.

  169. @Anon
    There are a lot of people allegedly familiar with the source material on this thread that either are lying, aren't very close readers, or they are dim.

    The movie was as close to the source material as it could be. Its faults lie largely in an inability to fit everything in: The conspiracy story about how Jessica was suspected to be a traitor, for example, would have provided much more character context to all of them. But there just wasn't room for it. As such the arc of Yueh's betrayal doesn't carry as much weight as it should have.

    But the casting? Aside from the Kynes swap-- about which I was a little annoyed, but it turns out it mostly doesn't matter-- everyone else is fine. Chalemet is slight and wet behind the ears? He's supposed to be. Chani and other Fremen are dark-skinned? These are people that live in a harsh desert, and Herbert certainly implied they were at least dusky with all the Turkish and Arabic references.

    And the biggest misfire is at the top of the thread: An alleged fan said the bull was annoying? That fan is either bad at reading, or a moron. The bull is very important, and the exact sort of thing a less faithful director would miss.

    Contra what some people are saying here, fans of the book actually adore the movie. Maybe some weird fans in personal circles that think Sean Freaking Young makes a good desert rat are disappointed. But most fans I know have trouble imagining how the film could have been done better given Hollywood constraints.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Pericles, @Twinkie

    Sean Freaking Young makes a good desert rat

    Honestly doesn’t look that miscast to me.

    (Image taken from article where she ‘calls out’ Warren Beatty, so Sean’s still at it, lol.)

  170. @Steve Sailer
    @pyrrhus

    Yeah, the Dr. Yueh stuff was pretty perfunctory in both the book and movie.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @The Germ Theory of Disease

    “the Dr. Yueh stuff was pretty perfunctory in both the book and movie.”

    It’s pretty much ALL perfunctory, except for the concepts and ideas, which are pretty original (space travel as metaphysical rather than physical, mentats as substitutes for computers, the gom jabbar).

    It’s nothing but a mashup of stock dynastic power struggles combined with your typical Chosen One routine. The characters are nearly all stock, the scenarios are stock, there isn’t a single real emotional jolt or surprise in the whole thing (there’s a reason Dr. Yueh’s betrayal packs no punch — his character is made of tissue paper, and so are the people he betrays.)

    Compare LoTR, which is stuffed to the gills with one memorable character after another, and odd, unexpected things like Tom Bombadil, Galadriel, and the Ents.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @The Germ Theory of Disease

    Tolkien was an heir to the English literary tradition (e.g., his best friend was C.S. Lewis) while Herbert was an heir to the American literary tradition, and rather an isolated heir in the Pacific Northwest. Herbert has his weaknesses, as the rest of his career shows, but I also find it rather heroic that he was able to summon his powers to create one book that remains a major standout in the history of American sci-fi.

    I didn't read Dune until I was 62, and yet it still impressed me. Granted, I also had the sense that Herbert was skating on thin ice at the edge of his ability, but I rather admire him for that: To be a nobody into your 40s, then to pull it together for one big book that you pour years into, but then nobody gets it and finally on your 22nd try a car repair manual publisher accepts it, but few buy it for a few years until the culture changes ...

    A similar thing happened to Heinlein, who had major cerebral problems from 1966-1969 and came out of the fog to find out he was now rich and famous among hippies for his 1961 novel "Stranger in a Strange Land." But Heinlein had been the dean of science fiction since 1941.

  171. @Pat Hannagan
    @Jim Christian

    Spot on.

    I bypass all the movie reviews, especially the Trevor Lynch stuff, but half-hearted started reading this to only run out of steam two thirds the way through through the promo.

    The events of the world right now are all the dystopian sci-fi novels of the 20th century come to life. Who has the need or desire to watch a fantasy film, isn't reality enough?

    I think what astounds me the most is the lack of urgency, or even feigned interest, by some of the finest minds on the internet. Here we have a deadset bonus gift of statistics in covid-19 for the statistically minded to feast upon, yet all we get are movie reviews?

    If one wants to get all film literate I'd like to discuss why the South Koreans are pumping out the best movies and serial TV at the moment. From Parasite, to Train to Busan, the brilliant Kingdom and now their latest in Squid Game. Some of the best examinations of modern life you'll find, far and away superior to Judeo-American dross. I'd hazard a guess and say it's because the South Koreans are still a people largely in control of their own ethnic destiny, whereas our movies are spawned from an alien race who hates us.

    They have Kia and Hyundai, a national sense of self based on their own ethnic image which they portray and examine in their art, we get re-makes and mulligans on old work done badly with heaping helpings of Woke horseshit.

    Replies: @fish, @AaronB, @Pixo, @Jim Christian, @anonymous coward, @Thoughts, @Chrisnonymous

    The events of the world right now are all the dystopian sci-fi novels of the 20th century come to life.

    I read Brave New World recently and then The Abolition of Man. Creepily, The Abolition of Man pretty much describes the encroachment of the world of Brave New World.

    I think this kind of reading can make you think better about current events. Escapism in the trenches is not useful.

    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist
    @Chrisnonymous

    The Abolition of Man is Lewis's most prescient work. It's strange, insightful, and magnificent.

    If anyone's interested, Lewis scholar Michael Ward has recently published a book-length guide to Abolition; see Amazon info here: LINK

    I haven't read it yet, but will do so soon.

  172. @Anon
    The only reason why Churchill thought war used to be magnificent is because they wore fancier uniforms in the 1800s. Once the uniforms became ugly, war became squalid.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

    If you read Storm of Steel, you can see that Churchill was not the only man to have thought war magnificent. In fact, there are quite a few quotes like this floatong around from pre-modern times. I think the main point is that Churchill got face to face with his opponents but was never injured. Chimpanzees love attacking but avoid getting hurt rather than pressing an attack. Men probably are the same and experience pre-modern war as a thrill if they win.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Chrisnonymous

    “Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.”

    Churchill was an observer of the Cuban revolt in the mid-1890s, participated in a butcher and bolt mission on the Northwest Frontier in what's now Pakistan, was in a cavalry charge at Omdurman in Sudan against the Mahdi's forces (his friends eschewed pistols for the traditional sabres, but Churchill had hurt his shoulder playing polo so it was considered tolerable, if unsporting, for him to instead use a large German pistol, which is likely the only reason he survived), was captured by the Boers in South Africa and famously escaped, and served as a major in the trenches in the Great War when he was in disgrace over Gallipoli. The latter was depressing, but the earlier experiences of combat were a blast for him.

    Replies: @Pat Hannagan, @Captain Tripps, @Joe Stalin, @Pincher Martin

    , @mc23
    @Chrisnonymous

    As Robert E. Lee said "It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it."

    Churchill did spend sometime in the trenches in World War I. Sort of a penance for Gallipoli which is a lot more then our elites do now.

    Wouldn't be great if Pete Buttigieg spent 4 months on tramp steamer after the screw up at the ports in California? Course he might find it an enjoyable diversion.

  173. @Buzz Mohawk
    @Almost Missouri


    ... protecting the modesty of the wearer, who was in a sense property. The Lady Jessica character, as a concubine, is also a kind of slave/property...
     
    Sure. Even here in the West we have our modern-day equivalents.


    https://i.pinimg.com/236x/fd/6c/0d/fd6c0d5a97ecaa32019cfa7e0072c734--slave-girl-corset.jpg


    Nothing to see here, folks. Just protecting the modesty of a concubine. Move along...

    Replies: @El Dato, @Joe S.Walker, @Chrisnonymous

    Is that your wife, Buzz?

    • LOL: Buzz Mohawk
  174. @Chrisnonymous
    @Anon

    If you read Storm of Steel, you can see that Churchill was not the only man to have thought war magnificent. In fact, there are quite a few quotes like this floatong around from pre-modern times. I think the main point is that Churchill got face to face with his opponents but was never injured. Chimpanzees love attacking but avoid getting hurt rather than pressing an attack. Men probably are the same and experience pre-modern war as a thrill if they win.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @mc23

    “Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.”

    Churchill was an observer of the Cuban revolt in the mid-1890s, participated in a butcher and bolt mission on the Northwest Frontier in what’s now Pakistan, was in a cavalry charge at Omdurman in Sudan against the Mahdi’s forces (his friends eschewed pistols for the traditional sabres, but Churchill had hurt his shoulder playing polo so it was considered tolerable, if unsporting, for him to instead use a large German pistol, which is likely the only reason he survived), was captured by the Boers in South Africa and famously escaped, and served as a major in the trenches in the Great War when he was in disgrace over Gallipoli. The latter was depressing, but the earlier experiences of combat were a blast for him.

    • Replies: @Pat Hannagan
    @Steve Sailer

    Churchill never saw action other than from the point of view of a well funded, private schooled journalist on summer leave, deployed by his paymaster.

    Too often you gild the lily, Sailer, but I won't let you get away with it when it comes to Churchill.

    The man should go down in history as the snake who betrayed all the White races that he truly is. He's the Judas of our peoples who is only now getting the fit return on his work, ironically, at the hands of the mud people he drunkenly decried.

    If it weren't for Churchill, Europe today would stand astride the world, America a holiday destination for working Whites.

    As it is, White girls are getting raped and turned into kebabs for proles to eat after football matches in England.

    You need to be checked on your historically illiterate eulogising of the greatest monster of our people.

    We deserve better, and one day Churchill will be put in his place when we rise from the grave he willed us to.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxDv_RTdLQo

    , @Captain Tripps
    @Steve Sailer

    Churchill's point of view seems to be the minority, though. A not insignificant one, probably. Von Moltke (the Elder, not the one in charge of the Imperial Army at the start of the Great War), thought war was a positive; bringing out some of mankind's greatest virtues. He seemed less concerned with the other extremes.

    In contrast, consider the memoirs of COL Rufus Dawes, Commander of the 6th Wisconsin Regiment of the famed Iron Brigade in the Civil War. He was in most of the major combat engagements in the Eastern Theater, including Second Bull Run, Antietam, Fredericksburg, Chancellorsville, Gettysburg, and the Overland Campaign (Wilderness, Spotsylvania, Petersburg). Its evident when you read his letters to his wife in 1864 that the effects of combat stress are manifest. Amazingly, being in the thick of some of the most deadly contests (he led the regiment into the Cornfield at Antietam; counterattacked Davis' Brigade at the Railroad Cut on the 1st day at Gettysburg; led assaults on the Confederate defensive works at Laurel Hill during Spotsylvania Courthouse), he came through with no kinetic fire wounds at all. Probably had Survivor's Guilt as well. Interesting trivia: he had four sons and two daughters; one of his sons was Charles Dawes, Vice President of the U.S. to Coolidge in his second administration.

    Or you can consider Lee, who said to Longstreet when the Army of the Potomac was assaulting Marye's Heights at Fredericksburg: "It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it."

    , @Joe Stalin
    @Steve Sailer


    [...] Churchill had hurt his shoulder playing polo so it was considered tolerable, if unsporting, for him to instead use a large German pistol, which is likely the only reason he survived), was captured by the Boers in South Africa and famously escaped, and served as a major in the trenches in the Great War when he was in disgrace over Gallipoli.
     
    https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/gun-was-used-winston-churchill-and-hon-solo-yes-star-wars-163812

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6EQQnkUGIk
    , @Pincher Martin
    @Steve Sailer


    ““Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.” - Churchill
     
    I fortunately escaped without a wound, tho’ the right Wing where I stood was exposed to ... received all the Enemy’s fire and was the part where the man was killed & the rest wounded. I can with truth assure you, I heard the bullets whistle – and believe me, there is something charming in the sound.

    - George Washington on being shot at in the French and Indian War

  175. @pyrrhus
    iSteve, the Harkonen couldn't exterminate the sandworms, because the worms made the priceless spice...Essentially, Dune exists to harvest the worms' waste...The movie doesn't explain how interstellar travel could reach Dune before the spice was known...

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Peter Akuleyev

    The movie doesn’t explain how interstellar travel could reach Dune before the spice was known…

    Interstellar travel presumably was performed with AI before the Butlerian jihad. The discovery of spice would have been a prerequisite to destroying thinking machines. That seems logical, but I haven’t read the prequels so I have no idea if that’s how Herbert’s son explains it.

    • Replies: @Corn
    @Peter Akuleyev

    It’s been over 25 years since I’ve read any of the Dune books but that was always my assumption.

  176. @The Germ Theory of Disease
    @Steve Sailer

    "the Dr. Yueh stuff was pretty perfunctory in both the book and movie."

    It's pretty much ALL perfunctory, except for the concepts and ideas, which are pretty original (space travel as metaphysical rather than physical, mentats as substitutes for computers, the gom jabbar).

    It's nothing but a mashup of stock dynastic power struggles combined with your typical Chosen One routine. The characters are nearly all stock, the scenarios are stock, there isn't a single real emotional jolt or surprise in the whole thing (there's a reason Dr. Yueh's betrayal packs no punch -- his character is made of tissue paper, and so are the people he betrays.)

    Compare LoTR, which is stuffed to the gills with one memorable character after another, and odd, unexpected things like Tom Bombadil, Galadriel, and the Ents.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Tolkien was an heir to the English literary tradition (e.g., his best friend was C.S. Lewis) while Herbert was an heir to the American literary tradition, and rather an isolated heir in the Pacific Northwest. Herbert has his weaknesses, as the rest of his career shows, but I also find it rather heroic that he was able to summon his powers to create one book that remains a major standout in the history of American sci-fi.

    I didn’t read Dune until I was 62, and yet it still impressed me. Granted, I also had the sense that Herbert was skating on thin ice at the edge of his ability, but I rather admire him for that: To be a nobody into your 40s, then to pull it together for one big book that you pour years into, but then nobody gets it and finally on your 22nd try a car repair manual publisher accepts it, but few buy it for a few years until the culture changes …

    A similar thing happened to Heinlein, who had major cerebral problems from 1966-1969 and came out of the fog to find out he was now rich and famous among hippies for his 1961 novel “Stranger in a Strange Land.” But Heinlein had been the dean of science fiction since 1941.

  177. @Mr. Anon
    @AaronB

    Is there anything on television in America that is wholesome? Even worse perhaps is mainstream popular music, which seems to be uniformly degenerate and evil. Compare that to the 70's: ABBA, Olivia Newton John, Linda Ronstadt, John Denver, etc.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara, @Steve Sailer, @AaronB

    I’m just pointing out that it’s ludicrous to say that Korea is a healthy, ethnically cohesive society when everything they’re making lately is about how ruthlessly competitive, evil, and divided their society is.

    It’s almost as if ethnic cohesion doesn’t mean the rich won’t pitilessly exploit the poor and that class division won’t be absolutely terrible, and that the problem might be society and the modern world and not race.

  178. @Steve Sailer
    @Chrisnonymous

    “Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.”

    Churchill was an observer of the Cuban revolt in the mid-1890s, participated in a butcher and bolt mission on the Northwest Frontier in what's now Pakistan, was in a cavalry charge at Omdurman in Sudan against the Mahdi's forces (his friends eschewed pistols for the traditional sabres, but Churchill had hurt his shoulder playing polo so it was considered tolerable, if unsporting, for him to instead use a large German pistol, which is likely the only reason he survived), was captured by the Boers in South Africa and famously escaped, and served as a major in the trenches in the Great War when he was in disgrace over Gallipoli. The latter was depressing, but the earlier experiences of combat were a blast for him.

    Replies: @Pat Hannagan, @Captain Tripps, @Joe Stalin, @Pincher Martin

    Churchill never saw action other than from the point of view of a well funded, private schooled journalist on summer leave, deployed by his paymaster.

    Too often you gild the lily, Sailer, but I won’t let you get away with it when it comes to Churchill.

    The man should go down in history as the snake who betrayed all the White races that he truly is. He’s the Judas of our peoples who is only now getting the fit return on his work, ironically, at the hands of the mud people he drunkenly decried.

    If it weren’t for Churchill, Europe today would stand astride the world, America a holiday destination for working Whites.

    As it is, White girls are getting raped and turned into kebabs for proles to eat after football matches in England.

    You need to be checked on your historically illiterate eulogising of the greatest monster of our people.

    We deserve better, and one day Churchill will be put in his place when we rise from the grave he willed us to.

  179. @Pincher Martin
    @Buzz Mohawk


    One takes days, the other hours, and the last two take minutes.
     
    But of course one can fill up hours, days, weeks, months, years wasting time on items that take just minutes. If you're willing to read two film reviews on this latest movie you aren't willing to see based on the book you aren't willing to read, then are you also willing to read three reviews? ... four? ...five? ... more?

    And how often would you do this for different movies you aren't willing to see based on books you aren't willing to read? Surely, it's not just Dune.

    When I was in college, in an effort to become better informed about contemporary political issues and criticism, I tried to read from cover to cover all the political and literary periodicals of the day: National Review, Commentary, TNR, The Nation, NYRoB, etc. I soon found I couldn't read anything else. Reading the average political or literary article doesn't take that long, but reading them all sure does.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    That’s true of news/politics websites too. You can easily spend whole days reading this stuff.

    • Agree: Pincher Martin
  180. @Buzz Mohawk
    @Reg Cæsar

    "Try a little tenderness" is right.

    The problem for us men is how to balance that with the roughness women also want. Sometimes it's this; sometimes it's that. The best strategy is to just do what comes naturally and hope that chance, random occurrence, will even it all out.

    And to listen to her.

    She wants both sides of you.

    You just sometimes don't know which one. Don't overthink it. God prepared you for this, and her for this. Just do it and let the chips fall... We wouldn't be here if they didn't more often fall where you want them to, and where she does too.

    Gee, don't I sound wise? LOL

    Replies: @Captain Tripps

    Excellent comment; what the Ancients in the Before Times called “common sense”.

  181. @Peter Akuleyev
    @pyrrhus

    The movie doesn’t explain how interstellar travel could reach Dune before the spice was known…

    Interstellar travel presumably was performed with AI before the Butlerian jihad. The discovery of spice would have been a prerequisite to destroying thinking machines. That seems logical, but I haven't read the prequels so I have no idea if that's how Herbert's son explains it.

    Replies: @Corn

    It’s been over 25 years since I’ve read any of the Dune books but that was always my assumption.

  182. @Steve Sailer
    @Chrisnonymous

    “Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.”

    Churchill was an observer of the Cuban revolt in the mid-1890s, participated in a butcher and bolt mission on the Northwest Frontier in what's now Pakistan, was in a cavalry charge at Omdurman in Sudan against the Mahdi's forces (his friends eschewed pistols for the traditional sabres, but Churchill had hurt his shoulder playing polo so it was considered tolerable, if unsporting, for him to instead use a large German pistol, which is likely the only reason he survived), was captured by the Boers in South Africa and famously escaped, and served as a major in the trenches in the Great War when he was in disgrace over Gallipoli. The latter was depressing, but the earlier experiences of combat were a blast for him.

    Replies: @Pat Hannagan, @Captain Tripps, @Joe Stalin, @Pincher Martin

    Churchill’s point of view seems to be the minority, though. A not insignificant one, probably. Von Moltke (the Elder, not the one in charge of the Imperial Army at the start of the Great War), thought war was a positive; bringing out some of mankind’s greatest virtues. He seemed less concerned with the other extremes.

    In contrast, consider the memoirs of COL Rufus Dawes, Commander of the 6th Wisconsin Regiment of the famed Iron Brigade in the Civil War. He was in most of the major combat engagements in the Eastern Theater, including Second Bull Run, Antietam, Fredericksburg, Chancellorsville, Gettysburg, and the Overland Campaign (Wilderness, Spotsylvania, Petersburg). Its evident when you read his letters to his wife in 1864 that the effects of combat stress are manifest. Amazingly, being in the thick of some of the most deadly contests (he led the regiment into the Cornfield at Antietam; counterattacked Davis’ Brigade at the Railroad Cut on the 1st day at Gettysburg; led assaults on the Confederate defensive works at Laurel Hill during Spotsylvania Courthouse), he came through with no kinetic fire wounds at all. Probably had Survivor’s Guilt as well. Interesting trivia: he had four sons and two daughters; one of his sons was Charles Dawes, Vice President of the U.S. to Coolidge in his second administration.

    Or you can consider Lee, who said to Longstreet when the Army of the Potomac was assaulting Marye’s Heights at Fredericksburg: “It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it.”

    • Thanks: Twinkie
  183. There’s a Neville Shute book where one of the characters (female) tells another (male), post WW2 that she misses the war. They had both served and it had been a big adventure.

  184. Perhaps this will cause you to rethink David Lynch. He’s an incompetent director who makes incoherent and meaningless drivel. A sizeable enough crowd has decided that the lack of obvious meaning in Lynch’s films must = awesome complexity. It’s a parlor trick.

    Yes, this version was outstanding

  185. @Steve Sailer
    @TWS

    The evil Baron's other nephew, who is like one of those unpopular Roman emperors like Caligula, Nero, and especially Commodus, only appears well into the book and isn't introduced in the movie. The book doesn't have much about the brutal nephew Rabban, but the movie expands his role slightly. Wrestler Dave Bautista is pretty good, as he usually is in sci-fi movies.

    Replies: @TWS

    Batista did fill the beast part well. A blunt instrument for Feyd to play off. However, I thought Feyd was in scenes before the whole chapter where he fought the gladiator. That’s where Herbert established Feyd was learning to play the game.

  186. @Steve Sailer
    @Mr. Anon

    Compare that to the 70’s: ABBA, Olivia Newton John, Linda Ronstadt, John Denver, etc.

    Rolling Stones, Bowie, Alice Cooper, Donna Summer, etc etc.

    In general, movies are at least as wholesome nowadays than in the 1970s, at least until Star Wars came along. The rise of porn since then meant that feature movies aren't very titillating anymore.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon

    Compare that to the 70’s: ABBA, Olivia Newton John, Linda Ronstadt, John Denver, etc.

    Rolling Stones, Bowie, Alice Cooper, Donna Summer, etc etc.

    Sure you had that (and even that wasn’t as outre as what is out there now) but you had the other too. There actually were wholesome songs all over the top 40 charts. What are the equivalents today? Katy Perry? Lady Gaga? Now it is all of it degenerate crap. The music awards shows are now presented as occult rituals, sometimes with overt satanic content.

  187. @Anon
    There are a lot of people allegedly familiar with the source material on this thread that either are lying, aren't very close readers, or they are dim.

    The movie was as close to the source material as it could be. Its faults lie largely in an inability to fit everything in: The conspiracy story about how Jessica was suspected to be a traitor, for example, would have provided much more character context to all of them. But there just wasn't room for it. As such the arc of Yueh's betrayal doesn't carry as much weight as it should have.

    But the casting? Aside from the Kynes swap-- about which I was a little annoyed, but it turns out it mostly doesn't matter-- everyone else is fine. Chalemet is slight and wet behind the ears? He's supposed to be. Chani and other Fremen are dark-skinned? These are people that live in a harsh desert, and Herbert certainly implied they were at least dusky with all the Turkish and Arabic references.

    And the biggest misfire is at the top of the thread: An alleged fan said the bull was annoying? That fan is either bad at reading, or a moron. The bull is very important, and the exact sort of thing a less faithful director would miss.

    Contra what some people are saying here, fans of the book actually adore the movie. Maybe some weird fans in personal circles that think Sean Freaking Young makes a good desert rat are disappointed. But most fans I know have trouble imagining how the film could have been done better given Hollywood constraints.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Pericles, @Twinkie

    Granted, I only read Dune about ten times in my teen years (I’m in my 50s now), but, in the book, did Paul go about calling Leto “Dad…”? Did Leto pat Paul on the back with “Yeah, I wanted to be a flyboy when I was younger against grandpa’s wishes too – even if you don’t amount to anything, I still love you as my son!” in the book? Did Jessica – other than when she realized her beloved Leto was dead – go around weeping hysterically any time she was concerned about her son in the book?

    The original Dune series is my favorite, especially the second and third books. My main problem with this movie isn’t dusky people casting or any such nonsense. It’s that the script is shallow and the acting is subpar, bordering on silly, and neither captures the philosophical subtleties* of the source material or the grand operatic qualities of the characters.

    *Where are the wheels within the wheels? Where are the distinctions between “an animal trick… and a human kind of a trick?” Where is the idea that love and revenge are such powerful motivators that they even overcome the Suk imperial conditioning against taking lives and betrayal?

    My problem is that this movie isn’t Frank Herbert’s Dune – it’s Brian Herbert’s Dune. And not even the glossy production value can overcome the difference.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Twinkie

    In re. Ferguson playing Jessica emotionally...

    I'd have to watch it a second time to confirm, but I think that was an artifact of the choice to not have internal monologues.

    Jessica is totally in control in front of other people, but emotional when alone. In the book she is very emotional internally, but controlling it on the exterior.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  188. @Steve Sailer
    @TGGP

    One of Peter Turchin's books starts with an exciting chapter of history on the Russian frontier and it struck me that I was over 50 years old before I'd ever really even thought about the Russian drive east. I have some picture in my head of Russians in Alaska and Northern California, but not of Czarist Russians subduing Siberia.

    Long ago, I bought Tolstoy's short novel about a Caucasian warlord but didn't read it.

    Replies: @S Johnson

    I read “The Cossacks” a few years back. As I remember it’s more of a personal story of discovery, not trying to give a panoramic view of the time like in his later novels, though there is some material on the differences between the urban, exogamous Russians and border-dwelling, endogamous Cossacks; not quite as much on the Muslim Chechens. The protagonist goes to the Caucasus to seek a purer life a bit like Thoreau went to Walden. Wikipedia says that Tolstoy wanted to rewrite it completely after reading the Iliad, so I imagine he would have made it more panoramic and political, but he went ahead and published it after losing a lot of money at cards.

  189. @Steve Sailer
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Probably saved Jerry Pournelle's life. Jerry's squad escaped the Chinese assault on the Chosin (sp?) reservoir in North Korea and fled south. Finally, they came within range of the US Navy's guns and for the first time in weeks a million Chinamen weren't trying to kill him, which made him very happy.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

    Thank you, Steve. This means something to me.

    My father, I guess like a lot of men from his generation, did not talk a lot about those times. He just described this thing to me over a steak dinner one night in his/our house (the one in the Rocky Mountains I eventually inherited) and his point really was all about those Korean families he felt sorry for. He could see them.

    What I gleaned about the rest of it is beyond the point he was making. Until recent years, I had no idea how historic his experience was, and I didn’t realize how many American lives he and his crew were saving.

    Thank you.

  190. @Steve Sailer
    @Chrisnonymous

    “Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.”

    Churchill was an observer of the Cuban revolt in the mid-1890s, participated in a butcher and bolt mission on the Northwest Frontier in what's now Pakistan, was in a cavalry charge at Omdurman in Sudan against the Mahdi's forces (his friends eschewed pistols for the traditional sabres, but Churchill had hurt his shoulder playing polo so it was considered tolerable, if unsporting, for him to instead use a large German pistol, which is likely the only reason he survived), was captured by the Boers in South Africa and famously escaped, and served as a major in the trenches in the Great War when he was in disgrace over Gallipoli. The latter was depressing, but the earlier experiences of combat were a blast for him.

    Replies: @Pat Hannagan, @Captain Tripps, @Joe Stalin, @Pincher Martin

    […] Churchill had hurt his shoulder playing polo so it was considered tolerable, if unsporting, for him to instead use a large German pistol, which is likely the only reason he survived), was captured by the Boers in South Africa and famously escaped, and served as a major in the trenches in the Great War when he was in disgrace over Gallipoli.

    https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/gun-was-used-winston-churchill-and-hon-solo-yes-star-wars-163812

  191. @Steve Sailer
    @Pincher Martin

    Yeah, in general I think the movie suffered from too much cross-cutting rather than just let the action play out in what should be big set-piece scenes like the rescue of the spice-trawler crew.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

    Here’s another example of how Paul’s dreams and visions interfered with the story in the movie.

    Just before Paul duels with the Fremen Jamis at the end of the film, he has a vision of the upcoming fight. The vision shows the knife fight in slow motion, ending with Paul’s death and a blade dripped in blood.

    What was Villeneuve’s purpose in showing this vision? I suppose one could say it adds dramatic tension to the upcoming fight for those few film viewers who aren’t sure Paul will live through it. But it certainly didn’t add any dramatic tension for anyone else.

    Did it look good? No, the fight in Paul’s vision is shown in slow motion, which almost never looks good. (The ensuring real fight is also nothing special. Villeneuve might be able to direct pretty films, but he can’t do fight scenes at all.)

    Jamis appears in a couple of Paul’s other visions as well. Or at least I think it’s Jamis. Perhaps it’s some other Nigerian-looking Fremen who has yet to be introduced. The one scene with the Jamis-looking character that I remember with some clarity is when Paul flies the thopter into a sandstorm to escape the Harkonnens pursuing him and his mother. The winds start to violently buffet the thopter’s wings and it seems as if the small craft is doomed.

    Paul then has a vision of what appears to be Jamis, a man he has yet to meet and will kill as soon as he does meet him. In the vision, Jamis explains to Paul that he must let things happen in the desert (or something along those lines). Paul awakes from his reverie and draws in his thopter’s wings, letting the storm take control of the craft. They survive the storm.

    Perhaps this detail is all in the novel. I can’t say because it’s been more than a decade since I last read Dune. But it was more distracting in the film than it was anything else. Villeneuve should’ve discarded most of it.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Pincher Martin

    The character of Jamis was tweaked for timing reasons.

    In the book his combat with Jamis happens after some time is spent with the Fremen. So the fight itself is fraught. And prior to the fight Paul knows that if he kills Jamis he will unleash a galactic slaughter. But he also knows if he doesn't, then he will die, as will his House.

    The erroneous visions were meant to invoke the idea that his visions aren't yet completely prescient, but are instead visions of what could be. Jamis is used in them to bring weight to the fight.

    So to get this idea about his visions across, and to move the fight up to a spot where it can work as the final act of the first movie, those choices were made. And, I think, they were good ones honest to the spirit of the text.

    Alas, this might also permit them to skip making Paul a polygamist. Which is a bummer, but...hey. I get it.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

  192. @Twinkie
    @Dave Pinsen


    Lynch having the Fremen leader Stilgar played by Everett McGill with dirt on his face was kind of silly.
     
    But McGill sounded operatic in Lynch’s film as did most major actors in it. He didn’t mumble like he was constipated (that’d be Javier Bardem in the new version). Also Bardem’s face looks much too “water rich.” The Fremen are supposed to be emaciated and dehydrated looking.

    Replies: @Trevor Lynch, @Dave Pinsen

    Bardem’s face looks much too “water rich.” The Fremen are supposed to be emaciated and dehydrated looking.

    That’s a good point, and a nice way of saying he got fat.

    • Thanks: Twinkie
    • LOL: Johann Ricke
  193. Anon[345] • Disclaimer says:
    @Pincher Martin
    @Steve Sailer

    Here's another example of how Paul's dreams and visions interfered with the story in the movie.

    Just before Paul duels with the Fremen Jamis at the end of the film, he has a vision of the upcoming fight. The vision shows the knife fight in slow motion, ending with Paul's death and a blade dripped in blood.

    What was Villeneuve's purpose in showing this vision? I suppose one could say it adds dramatic tension to the upcoming fight for those few film viewers who aren't sure Paul will live through it. But it certainly didn't add any dramatic tension for anyone else.

    Did it look good? No, the fight in Paul's vision is shown in slow motion, which almost never looks good. (The ensuring real fight is also nothing special. Villeneuve might be able to direct pretty films, but he can't do fight scenes at all.)

    Jamis appears in a couple of Paul's other visions as well. Or at least I think it's Jamis. Perhaps it's some other Nigerian-looking Fremen who has yet to be introduced. The one scene with the Jamis-looking character that I remember with some clarity is when Paul flies the thopter into a sandstorm to escape the Harkonnens pursuing him and his mother. The winds start to violently buffet the thopter's wings and it seems as if the small craft is doomed.

    Paul then has a vision of what appears to be Jamis, a man he has yet to meet and will kill as soon as he does meet him. In the vision, Jamis explains to Paul that he must let things happen in the desert (or something along those lines). Paul awakes from his reverie and draws in his thopter's wings, letting the storm take control of the craft. They survive the storm.

    Perhaps this detail is all in the novel. I can't say because it's been more than a decade since I last read Dune. But it was more distracting in the film than it was anything else. Villeneuve should've discarded most of it.

    Replies: @Anon

    The character of Jamis was tweaked for timing reasons.

    In the book his combat with Jamis happens after some time is spent with the Fremen. So the fight itself is fraught. And prior to the fight Paul knows that if he kills Jamis he will unleash a galactic slaughter. But he also knows if he doesn’t, then he will die, as will his House.

    The erroneous visions were meant to invoke the idea that his visions aren’t yet completely prescient, but are instead visions of what could be. Jamis is used in them to bring weight to the fight.

    So to get this idea about his visions across, and to move the fight up to a spot where it can work as the final act of the first movie, those choices were made. And, I think, they were good ones honest to the spirit of the text.

    Alas, this might also permit them to skip making Paul a polygamist. Which is a bummer, but…hey. I get it.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
    @Anon

    Thanks for explaining what the novel says about Jamis. It's been too long since I read it.


    The erroneous visions were meant to invoke the idea that his visions aren’t yet completely prescient, but are instead visions of what could be. Jamis is used in them to bring weight to the fight.
     
    To be fair, there was more ambiguity in the movie's pre-fight vision than I described. It looked like Paul was seeing his death, but it wasn't clear.

    But while the vision might be considered faithful to the spirit of the text, it doesn't work dramatically in the film.

    In the book, does Jamis appear to Paul as he is flying the thopter into the sandstorm?

  194. Anon[345] • Disclaimer says:
    @Twinkie
    @Anon

    Granted, I only read Dune about ten times in my teen years (I’m in my 50s now), but, in the book, did Paul go about calling Leto “Dad…”? Did Leto pat Paul on the back with “Yeah, I wanted to be a flyboy when I was younger against grandpa’s wishes too - even if you don’t amount to anything, I still love you as my son!” in the book? Did Jessica - other than when she realized her beloved Leto was dead - go around weeping hysterically any time she was concerned about her son in the book?

    The original Dune series is my favorite, especially the second and third books. My main problem with this movie isn’t dusky people casting or any such nonsense. It’s that the script is shallow and the acting is subpar, bordering on silly, and neither captures the philosophical subtleties* of the source material or the grand operatic qualities of the characters.

    *Where are the wheels within the wheels? Where are the distinctions between “an animal trick… and a human kind of a trick?” Where is the idea that love and revenge are such powerful motivators that they even overcome the Suk imperial conditioning against taking lives and betrayal?

    My problem is that this movie isn’t Frank Herbert’s Dune - it’s Brian Herbert’s Dune. And not even the glossy production value can overcome the difference.

    Replies: @Anon

    In re. Ferguson playing Jessica emotionally…

    I’d have to watch it a second time to confirm, but I think that was an artifact of the choice to not have internal monologues.

    Jessica is totally in control in front of other people, but emotional when alone. In the book she is very emotional internally, but controlling it on the exterior.

    • Agree: Dave Pinsen
    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Anon


    I think that was an artifact of the choice to not have internal monologues.
     
    I read somewhere once that interior monologues, rather like characters staring directly into the camera, is a kiss of death in films. But I tend to think that the Lynch version handled the crucial interior monologues of Dune, which was one of the things that was supposedly difficult to adopt into film, rather well.

    Replies: @Yngvar

  195. @Wilkey
    @Mike Tre


    Can those of us who enjoy sci fi even trust movie makers to give us an honest effort in telling the story as opposed to more mindless social justice engineering? The casting of this Zendaya creature is one part of the clear answer.
     
    I'm really annoyed by the casting in the Foundation series. Most of the actors they cast are awful and unattractive. They seem to have gone overboard with casting minorities simply because they're minorities. Leah Harvey, the "trans or "non-binary" or whatever black woman who plays Salvor Hardin, is quite possibly the worst lead on any show I've ever seen.

    AppleTV seems to have a much bigger obsession with "diverse" casting than pretty much every other streaming service. They even had to insert some unknown trans dude as an interviewee in a documentary on Charles Schulz (yes, the Peanuts guy), for no apparent reason. Up next they have a version of Macbeth with a black Macbeth and a black Macduff.

    But Dune is not on AppleTV, and the casting seems pretty good. They got diversity, but not without sacrificing quality. A few cast members are questionable, but none are terrible. Chalamet is ok, but still seems a bit too metrosexual for the role - I doubt he's ever even been camping. Casting Kynes as a black woman seems the most intentionally diverse of their choices, but she managed. I really liked Stephen Henderson, the almost albino-looking black actor they cast as mentat Thufir Hawat. Haven't seen enough of Zendaya to know how well she fits the role, but she hasn't ruined it yet. They weren't going to cast a supermodel or a pale Irish girl as a hardened native of a desert planet.

    But by far the best casting choice is Rebecca Ferguson as Lady Jessica. Lady Jessica has to fluctuate between times when she's extremely vulnerable and times when she's the strongest woman in the scene. She does that very convincingly, and she's luminous.

    Replies: @Alfa158, @Rob

    I liked Stephen Henderson, the almost albino-looking black actor they cast as Mentat Thufir Hawat

    That’s really good casting. They imply that mentats are from a heavily selected population. Due to pleiotropy and reduced effective population size in a breeding pool, they might end up looking strange. If I remember correctly, Hawat is described as having very curly hair, maybe even a ‘fro.

    You didn’t say it, but that Chalamet looks like he’s never been camping and is metrosexual is also good. Aristocratic men having characteristics that seem fey is a really common idea among proles. I hope he matures into someone who looks like he could be Lawrence of Arabia, the person on whom I think Frank Herbert based Pail-Maud’dib.

    If I were a director casting young actors for a series of films, especially ones where they will age much faster than the characters, though I don’t think that applies to Dune, I would beg, borrow or steal the software the FBI uses to come up with “what the suspect/kidnapping victim might look like now.” I’d also want photos of the actor’s parents, aunts/uncles, and older siblings. Might also give the SNP to phenotype software a shot, though I’d take it with a grain of salt. You’d hate to cast handsome, boy-band member Timmy Chalamet and end up with a skinny fat 20-year-old who’s losing his hair for the sequel.

  196. @Anon
    @Pincher Martin

    The character of Jamis was tweaked for timing reasons.

    In the book his combat with Jamis happens after some time is spent with the Fremen. So the fight itself is fraught. And prior to the fight Paul knows that if he kills Jamis he will unleash a galactic slaughter. But he also knows if he doesn't, then he will die, as will his House.

    The erroneous visions were meant to invoke the idea that his visions aren't yet completely prescient, but are instead visions of what could be. Jamis is used in them to bring weight to the fight.

    So to get this idea about his visions across, and to move the fight up to a spot where it can work as the final act of the first movie, those choices were made. And, I think, they were good ones honest to the spirit of the text.

    Alas, this might also permit them to skip making Paul a polygamist. Which is a bummer, but...hey. I get it.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

    Thanks for explaining what the novel says about Jamis. It’s been too long since I read it.

    The erroneous visions were meant to invoke the idea that his visions aren’t yet completely prescient, but are instead visions of what could be. Jamis is used in them to bring weight to the fight.

    To be fair, there was more ambiguity in the movie’s pre-fight vision than I described. It looked like Paul was seeing his death, but it wasn’t clear.

    But while the vision might be considered faithful to the spirit of the text, it doesn’t work dramatically in the film.

    In the book, does Jamis appear to Paul as he is flying the thopter into the sandstorm?

  197. @Buffalo Joe
    @El Dato

    El Dato, and the German U-boats almost sank England before the USA came along to help.

    Replies: @Philip Owen

    And then we gave you the Hiroshima bomb.

  198. @TGGP
    Reading up on Herbert's inspiration in the conflict between Tsarist Russia & Muslims of the Caucusus reminded me: are there any good movies on the expansion of Tsarist Russia? There are plenty of American westerns on how the US spread from sea to shining sea despite opposition from the natives, but the only "Osterns" I'm aware of take place during the Russian Civil War of the early 20th Century with Bolsheviks as the heroes and Central Asia already supposed to be under their nominal authority. And, on a related note, I'm still curious about what technological advantage the Russians had in their wars with Persia.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @Anonymous, @Steve Sailer, @Philip Owen, @Philip Owen

    Very good. Few people (none really) pick up on the Cossack element in the Fremen make up.

  199. @TGGP
    Reading up on Herbert's inspiration in the conflict between Tsarist Russia & Muslims of the Caucusus reminded me: are there any good movies on the expansion of Tsarist Russia? There are plenty of American westerns on how the US spread from sea to shining sea despite opposition from the natives, but the only "Osterns" I'm aware of take place during the Russian Civil War of the early 20th Century with Bolsheviks as the heroes and Central Asia already supposed to be under their nominal authority. And, on a related note, I'm still curious about what technological advantage the Russians had in their wars with Persia.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @Anonymous, @Steve Sailer, @Philip Owen, @Philip Owen

    -White sun of the desert- is an Ostern. I’ve only seen it in Russian but I think it is available with subtitles. A lone Russian soldiers saves a sheikh’s wives from Central Asian brigands somewhere on the shores of the Caspian Sea. An oil storage tank is involved.

  200. @Steve Sailer
    @Chrisnonymous

    “Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.”

    Churchill was an observer of the Cuban revolt in the mid-1890s, participated in a butcher and bolt mission on the Northwest Frontier in what's now Pakistan, was in a cavalry charge at Omdurman in Sudan against the Mahdi's forces (his friends eschewed pistols for the traditional sabres, but Churchill had hurt his shoulder playing polo so it was considered tolerable, if unsporting, for him to instead use a large German pistol, which is likely the only reason he survived), was captured by the Boers in South Africa and famously escaped, and served as a major in the trenches in the Great War when he was in disgrace over Gallipoli. The latter was depressing, but the earlier experiences of combat were a blast for him.

    Replies: @Pat Hannagan, @Captain Tripps, @Joe Stalin, @Pincher Martin

    ““Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.” – Churchill

    I fortunately escaped without a wound, tho’ the right Wing where I stood was exposed to … received all the Enemy’s fire and was the part where the man was killed & the rest wounded. I can with truth assure you, I heard the bullets whistle – and believe me, there is something charming in the sound.

    – George Washington on being shot at in the French and Indian War

  201. @Inquiring Mind
    @Rob

    " everyone whose last name is not Atreides takes IQ, aptitude, and interest tests at the end of school for sorting into economic roles."

    The National Lampoon satire Doon certainly played up that angle. The novel, however, describes a rigid caste system called Faufrelucheshttps://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Faufreluches, intended to "minimise alienation of individuals or minorities by providing for everyone" summarized as "a place for every man and every man in his place."

    The meritocratic sorting process was reserved for the "high born" such as Paul Atriedes -- think of him being "tested" with his hand in a nerve-induction pain box and a Reverend Mother holding a poisoned needle against his neck lest he flinch. It appears that anyone not born into nobility didn't have to worry about such things.

    Replies: @Rob

    On the faufaluches, who knows, maybe they did select people into their faufaluche by IQ, aptitude, and interests. Repeat this, or in a healthy society, selection and meritocracy within each caste will make the next generation more suited to their role. Meritocracy not necessarily on IQ, unskilled labor might be selected for strength, endurance, and not giving lip to da boss.

    [MORE]

    Is it clear from the books that the caste system is like medieval Europe or like India? In Europe, there were three (four including merchants) layers of society. If Dune castes like India, then there would be tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of castes. there are thousands of Indian jatis, they are endogamous and tend to specialize in certain occupations — there are the four(?) castes in the religious system, but in non-religious terms, the untouchables are another varna.

    The Jatis (jati might be plural) are different. A Tamil Brahmin (I think that’s a jati) would not marry some Brahmin from somewhere else, he would marry a Tamil Brahmin. Some jatis have endogamous sub-jati, though I do not know what they are called. They’ve genotyped people from different jatis, a lot have been endogamous for three thousand years.

    I have heard that Indians in America frequently marry within their varna (layer caste) but not within their jati. Perhaps this indicates that the caste system is breaking down, but perhaps there will be IT worker jatis, even separate ones for different programming languages, though those may change too fast. I have heard call center workers in India are becoming castes. Oh God, there will be a ton of Indians who can speak English without much accent when the floodgates that restrict Indian immigration to the Indian elite open.

    Back to Dune somewhat, it is pretty obvious that the caste system retarded Indian development. I know rec1man thinks some Brahmin jatis have 120 mean IQ, I think this is unlikely. First, because Brahmins were probably not under selection pressure that favored high IQ. It does not matter if the witch doctor casts his spell correctly, it won’t work either way. Bolstering his argument, however, is the existence of Ramachandran and Ramanujan, Even the merchant castes do not seem to have been selected like European Jews. Imagine if they had been, though. Three thousand years of strong selection for intelligence. Even a small population with a mean IQ of 130 could pump out more people with 165 IQ (3 σ above their mean, but 5 above ours) than the rest of humanity. Interestingly, in the only Indian IQ test results, I could find on the internet, the merchant castes were higher IQ than the Brahmins.

    I got the feeling from Dune that discovering the scientific principles for their super-science tech took a genius, Holtzman if I remember correctly, building and operating that tech is fairly simple.

    I wonder how deeply the Bene Gesserit breeding influence extends — are there lots of sisters around, using voice to pair successful (at their caste’s role) men with fertile women? Are most marriages in Imperial society arranged? A Dune novel that focused on someone from a fairly low caste might be really interesting. An exploration of the Dune-iverse that many fans would like to read and argue about on the internet. Brian Herbert, call me!

    Imagine the Dune-iverse as the descendent of our cultures. There is strong selection against ambition — Fischer’s social promotion of the [relatively] infertile seems to be true. Thousands of years of ambitious people having fewer kids would have tremendous evolutionary effects on the population. Also, modern reproduction patterns are unsustainable, Greg Cochran discussed that reproduction in the Byzantine Empire was sustainable for at least the better part of a thousand years. Dumb people did have tremendously higher reproductive success than smart people. Antisocial people did not have lots more kids than responsible people, etc. Though they did lose to Arabs, perhaps Arabs are bad at war today in part because they burned so much asabiya genetic potential for asabiya in their expansion. A quick search could do not turn up the Byzantine post on Westhunt.

    The Dune Universe is set 8,000 years in the future, at minimum. Don’t they do dates by years since the Corrino dynasty started? So 10,000 years in one social structure. People could have been heavily selected. If an organization worked hard at it for a long time, Africans could be bred into nearly albino, high IQ supercomputers in human form, though I would think they’d figure out a way to get out of the breeding program once they averaged, like 160 IQ. Casting that actor as Thufir Hawaiian shows just how far into the future Dune is set.

    I do wonder how far the ban on “thinking machines” extends. Are calculators allowed? Maybe silicon chips are too hard to make without computers?

    Has anyone read the Dune prequels? I read the first three, about Atreides, Harkonnen, and Corrino houses a generation before Dune. They were fun but did not have the power of Dune. There was one set in the Butlerian Jihad. Gotta say I do not think we could win a fight with a superhuman AI. At a minimum, they could make a hundred plagues with really high IFR. They could do this every year for decades. Though I kind of wanted Skynet in Terminator to be controlled by people living…somewhere. They want to remake the world completely, and extermination of all of humanity besides them is necessary.

    In my headcanon, Dune is set in the Terminator universe, tens, maybe hundreds, of thousands of years after humanity, against all odds, wins. It might also be the future of the Eclipse Phase RPG universe.

  202. @Chrisnonymous
    @Anon

    If you read Storm of Steel, you can see that Churchill was not the only man to have thought war magnificent. In fact, there are quite a few quotes like this floatong around from pre-modern times. I think the main point is that Churchill got face to face with his opponents but was never injured. Chimpanzees love attacking but avoid getting hurt rather than pressing an attack. Men probably are the same and experience pre-modern war as a thrill if they win.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @mc23

    As Robert E. Lee said “It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it.”

    Churchill did spend sometime in the trenches in World War I. Sort of a penance for Gallipoli which is a lot more then our elites do now.

    Wouldn’t be great if Pete Buttigieg spent 4 months on tramp steamer after the screw up at the ports in California? Course he might find it an enjoyable diversion.

  203. @Chrisnonymous
    @Pat Hannagan


    The events of the world right now are all the dystopian sci-fi novels of the 20th century come to life.
     
    I read Brave New World recently and then The Abolition of Man. Creepily, The Abolition of Man pretty much describes the encroachment of the world of Brave New World.

    I think this kind of reading can make you think better about current events. Escapism in the trenches is not useful.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist

    The Abolition of Man is Lewis’s most prescient work. It’s strange, insightful, and magnificent.

    If anyone’s interested, Lewis scholar Michael Ward has recently published a book-length guide to Abolition; see Amazon info here: LINK

    I haven’t read it yet, but will do so soon.

  204. @Anon
    @Twinkie

    In re. Ferguson playing Jessica emotionally...

    I'd have to watch it a second time to confirm, but I think that was an artifact of the choice to not have internal monologues.

    Jessica is totally in control in front of other people, but emotional when alone. In the book she is very emotional internally, but controlling it on the exterior.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    I think that was an artifact of the choice to not have internal monologues.

    I read somewhere once that interior monologues, rather like characters staring directly into the camera, is a kiss of death in films. But I tend to think that the Lynch version handled the crucial interior monologues of Dune, which was one of the things that was supposedly difficult to adopt into film, rather well.

    • Replies: @Yngvar
    @Twinkie


    I read somewhere once that interior monologues, rather like characters staring directly into the camera, is a kiss of death in films.
     
    The movie Utøya: July 22, first image after opening credits:
    https://i0.wp.com/thepeoplesmovies.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Utøya_-July-22-2018.jpg
  205. @Steve Sailer
    @Wilkey

    I was thinking about oil in the Middle East and I don't think spice and Arrakis is that close of an analogy. The oil industry can be environmentally destructive around water, but in the desert, not so much. I suspect Herbert was thinking more about metal mining in Indian lands in the West, such as gold and silver. Gold mining usually uses nasty stuff like mercury.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @Buzz Mohawk

    My other comment/reply to you on this is stupid. Sorry Steve. If I ever sound too harsh against you, I don’t really mean to be.

  206. @Twinkie
    @Anon


    I think that was an artifact of the choice to not have internal monologues.
     
    I read somewhere once that interior monologues, rather like characters staring directly into the camera, is a kiss of death in films. But I tend to think that the Lynch version handled the crucial interior monologues of Dune, which was one of the things that was supposedly difficult to adopt into film, rather well.

    Replies: @Yngvar

    I read somewhere once that interior monologues, rather like characters staring directly into the camera, is a kiss of death in films.

    The movie Utøya: July 22, first image after opening credits:

  207. @Pincher Martin
    I wrote this in Trevor Lynch's thread:

    Villeneuve’s movie is beautiful, but the director drains so much of the drama out of several key scenes in Dune that I began to feel as if he was purposely trying to make an art film.

    First, there are too many dream sequences. Yes, Paul’s dreams are a major part of Herbert’s novel, but they don’t translate well to the screen. Villeneuve should have cut out half of them from the film. How many times did I need to see Chani’s face before, you know, actually seeing Chani?

    Second, the most dramatic early scenes in the novel Dune – the Gurney Halleck training session on Caladan; the hunter-seeker scene with Paul and Shadout Mapes; Duke Leto and Paul’s first experience with a sandworm devouring a spice mining vehicle; Paul and Jessica’s crash in the desert, their scramble to safety while being chased by a sandworm, which leads to their first meeting with Stilgar and Chani – are all underplayed dramatically.

    Third, the fight scenes are not very well done. The first fight between the Sardaukar and the Fremen, for example, should’ve been heavily choreographed and taken a good five minutes of screen time. We need to witness the ferocity of both, but also the superiority of the latter, for it will presage many of the battles to come. The Fremen hide in the sand and burst out to attack, which is a cool visual, but not much follows up on that.

    Fourth, some of the dialogue sounds tinny and inauthentic. Chani’s final “This is just the beginning” was soul-crushing in its contemporary feeling that seems to wink at the audience who might yearn for the sequel. I would’ve much preferred “Tell me about the waters of your home world, Usul.” And Chani’s opening exposition about her people being oppressed, which was echoed later by Dr Liet-Kynes, did not sound Fremen-like at all. Where were the warrior women who threw their babies at Sardaukars? The lines sounded more like they came from Frantz Fanon than from a Fremen.

    I did like some parts of the film. The use of the “Voice” was superb, the best visualization I’ve seen on film in showing how it might work. I also loved the hand signals. They were used to good effect in Lady Jessica’s meeting with Shadout Mapes. Stellan Skarsgard’s Baron Harkonnen looked and sounded perfect, much more dangerous and less clownish than the Kenneth McMillan performance in Lynch’s film or the gay turn of the character Ian McNeice delivers in the 2000 mini-series.

    But it wasn’t enough. Too many keys scenes were underdramatized, leaving me first bored and finally frustrated by what might have been.

    Replies: @Anon, @Romanian

    I will not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. I agree with everything you said but I still loved the movie. I doubt I have seen a better adaptation other than Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter (both big budget affairs as well).

    My biggest gripe is with the fight scene and with the casting of Kynes.

  208. @TWS
    @Jim Christian

    Quick, you forgot to sneer at sportsball. It's not too late to add an 'ok, boomer' either.

    Replies: @Jim Christian

    Sure thing, millennial.

  209. @Twinkie
    @Dave Pinsen


    Lynch having the Fremen leader Stilgar played by Everett McGill with dirt on his face was kind of silly.
     
    But McGill sounded operatic in Lynch’s film as did most major actors in it. He didn’t mumble like he was constipated (that’d be Javier Bardem in the new version). Also Bardem’s face looks much too “water rich.” The Fremen are supposed to be emaciated and dehydrated looking.

    Replies: @Trevor Lynch, @Dave Pinsen

    He did have sort of a Charlton Heston vibe. Maybe that’s what Lynch was going for. Lynch’s Anglo-Germanic Fremen also brought to mind Khan’s crew from Star Trek II.

  210. Cut from Dune:


    [MORE]

Comments are closed.

Subscribe to All Steve Sailer Comments via RSS
PastClassics
Becker update V1.3.2
The Surprising Elements of Talmudic Judaism
The Shaping Event of Our Modern World