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As I mentioned several months ago, I have a friend who got to know the late Jeffrey Epstein in the mid 2000s before his legal problems began. My friend worked as a teenage research assistant for a famous friend of Epstein’s, and Epstein hung around the office a certain amount. Epstein seemed to be world’s least busy money manager, and would talk to him about random topics such as my friend’s relationship with his mom (my friend’s mom, not Epstein’s mom) and what he should get her for her birthday.
Last summer, my friend pushed back against the fairly popular theory that Epstein, like his old girlfriend Ghislaine Maxwell’s dad Cap’n Bob Maxwell, was working with Israeli intelligence.
Since then, however, he has gone over his old notes from his job and changed his mind, based on patterns of phone calls.
That’s not proof, but I was definitely struck that he had changed his mind. I questioned him closely about his change of mind and he said he hadn’t believed the Mossad rumors until he’d gone through his old log books documenting his interactions with Epstein and his boss and their phone calls.
Earlier, he’d recounted the one time he’d sat in on a meeting involving Epstein, his boss, and visitors identified as being from Mossad. In that meeting, Epstein had gushed to the Mossad guys about how their jobs sound awesome and he’d always wanted to be a secret agent just like them.
Now, after looking through his old records and finding a pattern compatible with extensive Mossad contacts, he thinks that one meeting with Mossad where Epstein played the uncool newbie was a set up. If he was anything else, Epstein was a cool guy, and this was uncharacteristically over the top for him.
A Wilderness of Mirrors, of course …
More info?
The answer to that question is critical.
Or, Acosta took a bribe and used the intelligence angle as an excuse figuring that it would somehow go away.Replies: @JimDandy, @Don't Look at Me
Notably, Bibi would have had to approve an op this size. Epstein bought his island in 1998.
So, the current Israeli PM was at some point asked “Ia it okay if we rape a bunch of American kids on behalf of the neocon agenda?” And he said “Yeah. Go for it.”
Oh, please Steve, not you too! We’ve already lost Mickey Kaus to EpsteinTrutherGate. Too many of our great minds have been lost to nutcase conspiracy theories.
My slight slip into it involved tracking down the common claim that Epstein never did any trades, so how could he have been a money manager? This was thrown out most recently by the otherwise sane Matt Taibbi on Joe Rogan.
I remember vaguely that I tracked down to an old long-form piece in … Vanity Fair? At any rate, the entire sum and substance of it was that the writer asked some (number unstated) friends (unnamed) who worked in New York trading (job positions unstated), and they had never seen any Epstein trades go through. How the hell would any dozen or two hundred or five thousand low/middle/high level trading industry people necessarily know whether one company had done any trading?
A lot more would have to be stated about how the stock market works and who the sources were to give it any sort of credence. I imagined the writer at a bar chatting with friends, it became a sentence in Vanity Fair, and then it became “Authoritative sources confirmed that Epstein never traded.”
At any rate, maybe he just bought a lot of index funds. Are billionaires going to announce publicly that they invested funds with a guy who didn’t return much? It just makes them look stupid.
I always figure it was one of the many rich guys he had dirt on. Whether they had connections to Mossad, we'll probably never know.Replies: @Anon, @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan, @Corvinus
There are enough strange facts surrouding the Epstein case to suggest that it goes a lot deeper.
So, the current Israeli PM was at some point asked "Ia it okay if we rape a bunch of American kids on behalf of the neocon agenda?" And he said "Yeah. Go for it."Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Desiderius
Epstein seemed to be more linked to former PM Ehud Barak than to Bibi.
I watch and read the MSM, and it's a fact: Epstein was linked to just Prince Andrew and Trump.
Full stop. No one else.Bill who?
Hillary who?
Alan who?
Governor Richardson who?
...who?Replies: @LondonBob
Of course, neither Prince Andrew, nor Dershowitz, nor Barak will spend a day in jail.Replies: @Art Deco
You need to keep up. That's definitely gone down the memory hole.
But the idea of a mega-rich Jewish sexual criminal simultaneously preying on under-age gentile girls and working for Mossad combines at least five antisemitic tropes, you hateful hate-filled haters! Thank G-d that the ADL are taking steps to deal with people like you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6n5Uoo3Ji2U
Curious … You’d think the change of mind would go in the other direction.
Epstein being Mossad would explain how he was able to get away with it for so long.
Not really.Replies: @Redneck farmer
Which, if true, opens up a whole vista vis-a-vis Wexner (Who is the only known client of Epstein’s company, whose purpose or services nobody can explain and who gave Epstein his infamous NYC mansion. He has since preposterously claimed Epstein ‘stole’ it, a fact he was utterly silent about for 30 years as he continued to be very warm and friendly with Epstein) and Victoria’s secret and the world of human trafficking in Eastern Europe where VS sourced much of their poorly-paid rank and file runway models who weren’t famous.
I found the immediate cancelling of the VS show just before it was to start and appointment of 2 trans models after Epstein was arrested an obvious attempt to stave off negative attention. We know Epstein was involved with MC2 and that whole sordid world. Was VS involved, even peripherally, in that kind of world? Was Epstein’s association with Wexner a means for him to get access to young vulnerable women and girls from Eastern Europe for his blackmail operations. We’re told he may have switched to them after dangerously using American girls for too long.
The fact that still nobody can explain where Epstein’s money came from or what his ‘company’ did is the red flag of an intel operation. Wexner seems to have at least been tasked with funneling the payments to Epstein.
Good thing I already hated Ohio State.Replies: @benjaminl
My slight slip into it involved tracking down the common claim that Epstein never did any trades, so how could he have been a money manager? This was thrown out most recently by the otherwise sane Matt Taibbi on Joe Rogan.
I remember vaguely that I tracked down to an old long-form piece in ... Vanity Fair? At any rate, the entire sum and substance of it was that the writer asked some (number unstated) friends (unnamed) who worked in New York trading (job positions unstated), and they had never seen any Epstein trades go through. How the hell would any dozen or two hundred or five thousand low/middle/high level trading industry people necessarily know whether one company had done any trading?
A lot more would have to be stated about how the stock market works and who the sources were to give it any sort of credence. I imagined the writer at a bar chatting with friends, it became a sentence in Vanity Fair, and then it became "Authoritative sources confirmed that Epstein never traded."
At any rate, maybe he just bought a lot of index funds. Are billionaires going to announce publicly that they invested funds with a guy who didn't return much? It just makes them look stupid.Replies: @Steve Sailer, @SFG, @Mr. Anon
I said Epstein appeared to be the world’s least busy big time money manager, in that he’d shoot the breeze with the teenage (male) intern at his famous friend’s office for a half hour at a time.
So this friend of yours didn’t think Epstein was a Mossad agent but wait, there was that time that he, Epstein and Epstein’s boss met with Mossad agents. How about that. LOL.
Of course he was Mossad.
Incidentally, Wexner channeled a lot of his money into the sports teams at Ohio State. We’re talking hundreds of millions of dollars.
Good thing I already hated Ohio State.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ohio_State_University_abuse_scandal
Members of the Italian-American mafia once tried to create their own version of the ADL, but, it didn’t take.
I don’t have much info, nor interest in that sordid affair. It didn’t change my world-view re these circles & matters. Right now, my disinterested opinion is:
1. Epstein was a typical capable sleazebag, a con-man who frequently appears in modern Jewish parasitic, criminal & exploitative mafia-type culture
2. misinfo is that he was not knowledgeable about money; he was not formally educated on these matters, but he seamlessly moved in those circles where Lolita-expess glamour for old farts, political intrigue & financial speculation were all merged into the Cheops pyramid of moral excrement. In short, he had a knack for money & knew how to deal with it (I think he was c. $ 450 M worth at the time of his death; big, but not so spectacular considering everything)
3. he was basically a pimp for elites. He may be disgusting, but I don’t see him as a horrendous criminal, which would include violent rape, possible murder, torture, international sex trafficking, organ harvesting, …
4. it is very possible, almost certain, that he (Jewish, connected to elites) had connections to Israeli intelligence (and not just Israeli). Just, he was not “groomed” nor “recruited” by them. He was probably contacted by them after he’s already established himself as an elite pimp. Knowing such types doesn’t hurt. What could they profit from sex blackmail? We don’t live in the 50’s anymore. Having in mind his “profession”, nothing serious could have come out of it. Even outed, men who used his services could not be blackmailed to betray any vital secrets on anything; these times had passed.
5. his end? 70% he was murdered; 29% he killed himself; 1% everything else.
Men outed for having sex with underage girls (or doing weirder things with them) couldn't be blackmailed? I find that hard to believe. I'm sure Prince Andrew would have been willing to pay a great deal rather than be exposed as he has.Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Sean
My slight slip into it involved tracking down the common claim that Epstein never did any trades, so how could he have been a money manager? This was thrown out most recently by the otherwise sane Matt Taibbi on Joe Rogan.
I remember vaguely that I tracked down to an old long-form piece in ... Vanity Fair? At any rate, the entire sum and substance of it was that the writer asked some (number unstated) friends (unnamed) who worked in New York trading (job positions unstated), and they had never seen any Epstein trades go through. How the hell would any dozen or two hundred or five thousand low/middle/high level trading industry people necessarily know whether one company had done any trading?
A lot more would have to be stated about how the stock market works and who the sources were to give it any sort of credence. I imagined the writer at a bar chatting with friends, it became a sentence in Vanity Fair, and then it became "Authoritative sources confirmed that Epstein never traded."
At any rate, maybe he just bought a lot of index funds. Are billionaires going to announce publicly that they invested funds with a guy who didn't return much? It just makes them look stupid.Replies: @Steve Sailer, @SFG, @Mr. Anon
The guy didn’t kill himself. I don’t know who did it. I never found the claims Mossad was behind 9/11 that convincing–would they risk the blowback if they got caught?–and there are people here who think Mossad is behind everything they don’t like, but a blackmail ring doesn’t seem that nuts.
I always figure it was one of the many rich guys he had dirt on. Whether they had connections to Mossad, we’ll probably never know.
Also, the American people tend, as a rule, towards gullibility. It's just the honest truth. That's why Franklin Roosevelt got away with his whole litany of deceptions and crimes.
But we do know. From Q-Anon, by way of Neon Revolt, who sells merchandise, too! Apparently, a prominent Jewish lawyer from an Ivy School was given the green light by Trump to take care of this "problem".
Epstein being Mossad would explain how he was able to get away with it for so long.
Not really.
He had a trading office in Florida with a not insubstantial staff, didn’t he? Madoff did also, but still.
I always figure it was one of the many rich guys he had dirt on. Whether they had connections to Mossad, we'll probably never know.Replies: @Anon, @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan, @Corvinus
Oh, good grief. Here we go.
Ehud who?
I watch and read the MSM, and it’s a fact: Epstein was linked to just Prince Andrew and Trump.
Full stop. No one else.
Bill who?
Hillary who?
Alan who?
Governor Richardson who?
…who?
What I find interesting — in real time — is the sputtering of those made uncomfortable by Mr. Sailer thinking critically about this. They would rather have him cover black cornerbacks.
Golf clap to your friend for revisiting that corny meeting. Epstein was of course as full of shit as ever, as risibly full of shit as when he bafflegabbed his “currency trading” strategy to actual competent people in Wexner’s employ. Counterintelligence people spot a spy by gaps in his purported expertise, so nowadays competent spies mostly keep their mouth shut on substantive matters. Not Epstein.
Spooks in general get into trouble by thinking people are stupider than they actually are. CIA is particularly prone to that problem because smart US nationals go make real money, leaving grandiose mediocrities to spin half-baked puppetmaster fantasies at NHB. Contempt for the common man and the Dunning-Kruger effect are a dangerous combination. Russ Baker has highlighted this telltale ruthless ineptitude, which is the inevitable result of impunity.
Attentive readers will note that it wasn’t CIA agents Epstein was burning, it was Mossad agents. So, to trace the mildly diabolical machinations of a military-grade mind, one infers that attendees were meant to think:
1. “Holy shit, SPIES!!!1!”
2. “Hmmm. Mister Epstein wishes he was a spy too, so that means… he’s not one.”
3. “Wa-a-a-ait a minute!! Maybe he *is* one!!! You can’t fool me!”
4. “Holy shit, Epstein works for Moossad!1!1!!”
While Epstein is sitting there with his two abortive degrees going “Heh heh heh, little do they know, I work for CIA!” As he bragged compulsively for years.
CIA hears every single cherry go Ka-pop! and gets the O-face. Mossad supplies the cutouts.
Now, Who else was in that meeting? Because bigger fish were to be duped.
Over the years I have read of many con men who claimed to be secret agents.
If they said they were Mossad they probabally were not Mossad.
If they were really Mossad they would have claimed to be CIA.
We know the type of Americans who work for Mossad tend to be people working for the US government and we know the recruitment pitch is it will help their careers. Carrot is more effective than stick every time.
Sheeny = good salesman.
Barrr hired Epstein as a teacher at an exclusive private school, then Greenberg hired him at Bear Stearns. Smoooooth talker.
Old Jeff was a bullshit artiste in other words. Wealthy clients had what Epstein wanted: money. The hapless Wexner whose female relatives had offices next to his own was the dream ‘mark’ Epstein had been waiting for. We know Epstein spent all day having sex, three times a day. As porno entrepreneur Seymour Butts said when asked why so much pornographic performing talent is of a certain people said “I have never met a Jewish guy who was not as horny as a jackrabbit”.
Sorry, who’s getting set up here? Epstein? Epstein’s boss? Steve’s friend’s boss? Steve’s friend? Steve? Me? I’m not following.
I’ve become suspicious of the Mossad connection just because, supposedly, a former Mossad agent has confirmed it. I saw it on TV and everything. Now, that means either this former Mossad agent is basically a traitor to Israel (blowing the whistle on an intelligence operation and thus imperiling the US alliance) or he’s a very moral man who frowned on the operation (unlikely) or Mossad is taking the fall for someone else (CIA? Illuminati? Alien replicons from beyond the moon?) or it was Mossad but they’re trying to throw us off the scent by admitting to it.
Or is that just what they want us to think?
Best I can tell is Epstein made his money via blackmailing his sex clients. Eps was not a billionaire but in the 500 million dollar range.
My take is that Leslie Wexner (worth a few billion) was his prime blackmailed client. Perhaps accounting for half of Epstein’s wealth. Gay rumors about Wexner abound. He used to park his v large yacht in Ft Lauderdale harbor in the winter. Was at least 250-300ft long, I saw it two times circa 2003. Ft Lauderdale being prime gay territory. Wex must have had some rousing parties on board.
Go to his Wikipedia and Wexner is married with four children. He has a Schmatta empire. Thus looks eminently blackmail-able to me. By Epstein. Perhaps Eps and Ghislaine supplied him with you know what when his yacht was docked in Ft Lauderdale in winter.
If there was Mossad action, then only 10% of what Epstein had going on. As in Mossad is cheap and will not pay Eps much even if they made a dual loyalty appeal to him.
If your intuitive response is "Travis Who?", I suggest you keep it to yourself: it'll reveal that you are ignorant about great American pulp fiction;-)
By weird coincidence, Madoff also had a Potemkin “trading” operation as a front for something else…
',
So, the current Israeli PM was at some point asked "Ia it okay if we rape a bunch of American kids on behalf of the neocon agenda?" And he said "Yeah. Go for it."Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Desiderius
What amkes you think Bibi has any more control over Mossad than Trump does over the mighty IC?
I always figure it was one of the many rich guys he had dirt on. Whether they had connections to Mossad, we'll probably never know.Replies: @Anon, @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan, @Corvinus
Let’s say you’re the Mossad and you want to do something like 9/11 in order to push America to do what you want. Well, there’s no, or very little, risk in blowback if you have people on the inside. Which is what Israel had in the American administration.
Also, the American people tend, as a rule, towards gullibility. It’s just the honest truth. That’s why Franklin Roosevelt got away with his whole litany of deceptions and crimes.
Eric Weinstein (managing director of Thiel capital) thinks Epstein was a fake.
He met him at his house. Epstein had a giant dining room table with an American flag as its table cloth, so any spillage would go onto the flag
“I knew Epstein was very likely to be something totally other than he was”
At 49 minutes and 30 seconds in, he explains the meeting for a couple minutes.
Well, Eric Weinstein might know quite a few people who own an island and invite over young scientists. But in this talk with Sam Harris, Eric Weinstein talks about how Epstein did support young scientists he knew.
Might still be a coincidence.Replies: @J.Ross
Epstein didn’t kill himself. That’s all I know for sure, the rest is speculation. You don’t run a child rape camp without lots of somebody’s taking notice. You need a carrot and stick to keep running. So Mossad (intriguingly my browser does not recognize the word) is running him, maybe. Or maybe not.
Come to think of it, Eli Cohen seems similar. He actually came out of no where, and, if anyone looked into it, his supposed businesses back in Argentina did not really exist. Any other Epstein-Cohen parallels?
Acosta. Has anyone publicly demanded to know who, supposedly, told him to back off on Epstein?
The answer to that question is critical.
Or, Acosta took a bribe and used the intelligence angle as an excuse figuring that it would somehow go away.
Jeffrey Epstein likely could lure powerful people into sexual relationships with underage girls and thereby make it possible to blackmail those people on behalf of Israel’s interests — the honeypot method.
Five eyes. CIA can’t spy directly on US soil. Mossad can. And share. Thats the five eyes extended to six
Really gets the ol’ noggin’ joggin’
1. Epstein was a typical capable sleazebag, a con-man who frequently appears in modern Jewish parasitic, criminal & exploitative mafia-type culture
2. misinfo is that he was not knowledgeable about money; he was not formally educated on these matters, but he seamlessly moved in those circles where Lolita-expess glamour for old farts, political intrigue & financial speculation were all merged into the Cheops pyramid of moral excrement. In short, he had a knack for money & knew how to deal with it (I think he was c. $ 450 M worth at the time of his death; big, but not so spectacular considering everything)
3. he was basically a pimp for elites. He may be disgusting, but I don't see him as a horrendous criminal, which would include violent rape, possible murder, torture, international sex trafficking, organ harvesting, ...
4. it is very possible, almost certain, that he (Jewish, connected to elites) had connections to Israeli intelligence (and not just Israeli). Just, he was not "groomed" nor "recruited" by them. He was probably contacted by them after he's already established himself as an elite pimp. Knowing such types doesn't hurt. What could they profit from sex blackmail? We don't live in the 50's anymore. Having in mind his "profession", nothing serious could have come out of it. Even outed, men who used his services could not be blackmailed to betray any vital secrets on anything; these times had passed.
5. his end? 70% he was murdered; 29% he killed himself; 1% everything else.Replies: @Harry Baldwin, @Currahee
Even outed, men who used his services could not be blackmailed to betray any vital secrets on anything; these times had passed.
Men outed for having sex with underage girls (or doing weirder things with them) couldn’t be blackmailed? I find that hard to believe. I’m sure Prince Andrew would have been willing to pay a great deal rather than be exposed as he has.
Wexner is tight with Israel, he could ask them to recommend ex Mossad people to help him deal with an extortion plot. Or theft of his assets. For a price it would not be difficult to get some rough customers willing to use muscle, blow up the offshore bank where Epstein kept his money, maybe threaten to break his legs, that is quite effective at getting people to pay up I believe.
I think everyone is forgetting the established facts: Epstein was far more vulnerable to having his sexual behaviour revealed than anyone else was, and it has been proven that Epstein paid 80 million to Wexner after his original conviction which is around the time Wexner said the embezzling was discovered.
My take is that Leslie Wexner (worth a few billion) was his prime blackmailed client. Perhaps accounting for half of Epstein's wealth. Gay rumors about Wexner abound. He used to park his v large yacht in Ft Lauderdale harbor in the winter. Was at least 250-300ft long, I saw it two times circa 2003. Ft Lauderdale being prime gay territory. Wex must have had some rousing parties on board.Go to his Wikipedia and Wexner is married with four children. He has a Schmatta empire. Thus looks eminently blackmail-able to me. By Epstein. Perhaps Eps and Ghislaine supplied him with you know what when his yacht was docked in Ft Lauderdale in winter.If there was Mossad action, then only 10% of what Epstein had going on. As in Mossad is cheap and will not pay Eps much even if they made a dual loyalty appeal to him.Replies: @utu, @Sergeant Prepper
Wexner being blackmailed? The same Wexner who set up the Mega group?
The issue who is Mossad or CIA or Russian-Israeli Mafia is secondary. There are splinter, rouge groups that overlap and work on several levels. But making money for themselves might be the most important one.
Madoff was the principal of two distinct businesses. One was a proprietary trading business and the other was a ‘wealth management’ business. They were on separate floors and (IIRC) did not have any staff in common. There were about 12 employees over the years who were in the know about the Ponzi scheme and from the testimony of a key employee, it appears it was already in operation by 1968. It’s absolutely stupefying he could keep it alive for so long. Another thing that was astonishing is that after Harry Markopolous worked out the scam in 1999, he spoke to one equity-trading desk supervisor after another who had concluded that Madoff had been front-running or operating a Ponzi scheme. His attempts to alert the SEC came a-cropper when he was shunted off to speak to a securities lawyer who could not evaluate his work herself and either couldn’t be bothered or didn’t know how to locate someone to evaluate it for her.
Isn’t blackmail usually ineffective? “Do this or else I’ll release these photos” is ineffective because there is no credible promise of compliance. The blackmailer can still release the photos even if you pay him off. Denny Hastert paid off his blackmailer and still ended up in jail. The blackmailers of Dave Letterman didn’t really get what they wanted either. That’s why the whole “blackmail ring” thing doesn’t really ring true. Blackmail is for amateurs.
Men outed for having sex with underage girls (or doing weirder things with them) couldn't be blackmailed? I find that hard to believe. I'm sure Prince Andrew would have been willing to pay a great deal rather than be exposed as he has.Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Sean
What could Mossad accomplish with blackmailing Andy-dandy? I am well aware that being dragged through the mud can be harmful to one’s nerves, but British services are even more powerful in covering tracks (and in putting pressure on Israel, if necessary).
I was writing about more “ordinary” Epstein’s clients where these geriatrics could, at worst, get a slap on the wrist (or be booted from home by their exes). What could Epstein (and Mossad in particular) do to Minsky, Dershowitz, Clinton, ….? They could always claim they didn’t know the girls were underage.
More, many of those were strongly pro-Israel Jews or Gentile debauchees who wouldn’t care to intimidate or alienate Israel; nor were they privy to some big secrets Israel or Mossad would die to get their hands on. Had Epstein succeeded to get Noam Chomsky or Normal Finkelstein or John Mearsheimer, that would have been quite another issue ….
He didn’t run a child-rape camp. He recruited late adolescents who could not give consent with legal force but were happy to oblige (or who could give consent and were happy to oblige – n.b., the divisory line is your 17th birthday in New York). Virginia Giuffre is an exemplar of seller’s remorse at best (more likely a mix of seller’s remorse, hamster-0n-the-wheel, and confabulation). Is there any evidence any of these girls were actually debarred from leaving, or coerced, or subjected to extortion? He got away with it because their parents were complicit or clueless. Virginia Giuffre’s father has spoken to reporters once, but what he had to say didn’t make you any smarter.
Not Raul wrote that Ehud Barak "rapes children". ATBOTL wroteWhat is the basis for those lurid claims?Replies: @Art Deco
I get it, you wish you could still get with the girls you got in high school or maybe didn't get.Replies: @Art Deco, @Jack D
My take is that Leslie Wexner (worth a few billion) was his prime blackmailed client. Perhaps accounting for half of Epstein's wealth. Gay rumors about Wexner abound. He used to park his v large yacht in Ft Lauderdale harbor in the winter. Was at least 250-300ft long, I saw it two times circa 2003. Ft Lauderdale being prime gay territory. Wex must have had some rousing parties on board.Go to his Wikipedia and Wexner is married with four children. He has a Schmatta empire. Thus looks eminently blackmail-able to me. By Epstein. Perhaps Eps and Ghislaine supplied him with you know what when his yacht was docked in Ft Lauderdale in winter.If there was Mossad action, then only 10% of what Epstein had going on. As in Mossad is cheap and will not pay Eps much even if they made a dual loyalty appeal to him.Replies: @utu, @Sergeant Prepper
Hey, that’s where Travis McGee’s houseboat, The Busted Flush, used to be moored.
If your intuitive response is “Travis Who?”, I suggest you keep it to yourself: it’ll reveal that you are ignorant about great American pulp fiction;-)
The trouble with that is finding someone among the accused who might have had influence over some area of policy of interest to Israel. The one person I can think of is Bill Clinton, and in his case, the influence would have to be exercised through intermediaries. Alan Dershowitz (who I’ll wager is innocent) and Prince Andrew know a lot of people (as did Epstein himself), but it’s doubtful that either of them had actual influence over policy (or any more than someone who could get his phone calls returned). George Mitchell is supposedly on some flight manifest, but he was out of Congress at the time and the appointed positions he had had to do with Ulster, not the Near East. He was a Near East envoy at a later date, but that was after Epstein was out of business.
He’s been accused of sexual harassment of his students multiple times. He gets away with it because he has powerful friends in both parties.Replies: @R.G. Camara, @Art Deco
Men outed for having sex with underage girls (or doing weirder things with them) couldn't be blackmailed? I find that hard to believe. I'm sure Prince Andrew would have been willing to pay a great deal rather than be exposed as he has.Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Sean
As Gawker found out billionaires can and will hit back at you just out of injured pride.
Wexner is tight with Israel, he could ask them to recommend ex Mossad people to help him deal with an extortion plot. Or theft of his assets. For a price it would not be difficult to get some rough customers willing to use muscle, blow up the offshore bank where Epstein kept his money, maybe threaten to break his legs, that is quite effective at getting people to pay up I believe.
I think everyone is forgetting the established facts: Epstein was far more vulnerable to having his sexual behaviour revealed than anyone else was, and it has been proven that Epstein paid 80 million to Wexner after his original conviction which is around the time Wexner said the embezzling was discovered.
The Israeli government systematically raped dozens or hundreds of very young white Christian American girls. Let’s all keep that in mind anytime Israel comes up in any context. This is a state that rapes our children. Treat it accordingly.
Sure it can. What’s stopping them? Some regulation saying they can’t encroach on the FBI’s terf? Ha!
Now consider the Strzok-Page "romance."
Come on, Epstein didn’t have to do anything to make money! Money works for you. Wexner’s firm would make it so. Say you’re gonna blackmail or bribe half of the American establishment, politicians, spies, the movers and the shakers, corporations, Hollywood, and Harvard and Yale, what’s, say, a billion dollars investment for Israel and Israeli corporations? I’d call it a good investment.
Though I tend to think that American Intelligence was involved as well. A joint venture if you will.
In a wilderness of mirrors, follow the light.
Naw, this, more like:
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/villains/images/6/6c/Bboargh.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20121102062604
Amazes me that people are still surprised by all this.
https://www.counterpunch.org/2009/03/12/israeli-spying-in-the-united-states/
Buddy of mine worked at 611 Folsom in San Francisco when Room 641A was discovered. I asked him whether people knew what was going on in there. He said that they were so busy in engineering trying to deliver on marketing’s promises to customers that nobody noticed anything.
And that, boys and girls, is the ultimate use of consumerism. A circus of distractions.
How interesting your friend kept his detailed notes from his old job (fifteen? years ago), right down to the call logs.
(lol on all the anon commenters rushing in to say he wasn’t m—-d)
Remove the Jew part and ask if it is inconceivable that an intelligence service would seek something like this: there is only one answer.
1. Epstein was a typical capable sleazebag, a con-man who frequently appears in modern Jewish parasitic, criminal & exploitative mafia-type culture
2. misinfo is that he was not knowledgeable about money; he was not formally educated on these matters, but he seamlessly moved in those circles where Lolita-expess glamour for old farts, political intrigue & financial speculation were all merged into the Cheops pyramid of moral excrement. In short, he had a knack for money & knew how to deal with it (I think he was c. $ 450 M worth at the time of his death; big, but not so spectacular considering everything)
3. he was basically a pimp for elites. He may be disgusting, but I don't see him as a horrendous criminal, which would include violent rape, possible murder, torture, international sex trafficking, organ harvesting, ...
4. it is very possible, almost certain, that he (Jewish, connected to elites) had connections to Israeli intelligence (and not just Israeli). Just, he was not "groomed" nor "recruited" by them. He was probably contacted by them after he's already established himself as an elite pimp. Knowing such types doesn't hurt. What could they profit from sex blackmail? We don't live in the 50's anymore. Having in mind his "profession", nothing serious could have come out of it. Even outed, men who used his services could not be blackmailed to betray any vital secrets on anything; these times had passed.
5. his end? 70% he was murdered; 29% he killed himself; 1% everything else.Replies: @Harry Baldwin, @Currahee
Epstein awed by Mossad agents, Epstein in a SEAL uniform: pocketa, pocketa.
If they said they were Mossad they probabally were not Mossad.
If they were really Mossad they would have claimed to be CIA.
We know the type of Americans who work for Mossad tend to be people working for the US government and we know the recruitment pitch is it will help their careers. Carrot is more effective than stick every time.Sheeny = good salesman.
Barrr hired Epstein as a teacher at an exclusive private school, then Greenberg hired him at Bear Stearns. Smoooooth talker.Old Jeff was a bullshit artiste in other words. Wealthy clients had what Epstein wanted: money. The hapless Wexner whose female relatives had offices next to his own was the dream 'mark' Epstein had been waiting for. We know Epstein spent all day having sex, three times a day. As porno entrepreneur Seymour Butts said when asked why so much pornographic performing talent is of a certain people said "I have never met a Jewish guy who was not as horny as a jackrabbit".Replies: @Mr. Anon
So? A lot of secret agents are conmen. It’s a part of just about every secret agent’s job. A big part, for some of them. Even a lowly CIA agent under diplomatic cover in a friendly country is pretending to be something he isn’t.
Good thing I already hated Ohio State.Replies: @benjaminl
Ohio State, eh?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ohio_State_University_abuse_scandal
I’ll tell you guys, the middle-aged mom set is definitely not buying the Epstein suicide thing. Memes like this are all over Facebook right now. It’s totally mainstream.
Are you gonna actually, you know, make any arguments?
My slight slip into it involved tracking down the common claim that Epstein never did any trades, so how could he have been a money manager? This was thrown out most recently by the otherwise sane Matt Taibbi on Joe Rogan.
I remember vaguely that I tracked down to an old long-form piece in ... Vanity Fair? At any rate, the entire sum and substance of it was that the writer asked some (number unstated) friends (unnamed) who worked in New York trading (job positions unstated), and they had never seen any Epstein trades go through. How the hell would any dozen or two hundred or five thousand low/middle/high level trading industry people necessarily know whether one company had done any trading?
A lot more would have to be stated about how the stock market works and who the sources were to give it any sort of credence. I imagined the writer at a bar chatting with friends, it became a sentence in Vanity Fair, and then it became "Authoritative sources confirmed that Epstein never traded."
At any rate, maybe he just bought a lot of index funds. Are billionaires going to announce publicly that they invested funds with a guy who didn't return much? It just makes them look stupid.Replies: @Steve Sailer, @SFG, @Mr. Anon
Is it customary for multi-millionaire New York financiers to buy lottery tickets in flyover-land? Because there is evidence to suggest that Epstein won an almost $ 30 million payout from the Oklahoma powerball within days of beginning his “jail sentence” in Florida in 2008.
There are enough strange facts surrouding the Epstein case to suggest that it goes a lot deeper.
I watch and read the MSM, and it's a fact: Epstein was linked to just Prince Andrew and Trump.
Full stop. No one else.Bill who?
Hillary who?
Alan who?
Governor Richardson who?
...who?Replies: @LondonBob
Prince Andrew certainly seems to be the sacrificial lamb, famous but utterly powerless. That said the Mail, and shockingly Murdoch’s Sun, have both had articles discussing Ari Ben Menashe and his claims Epstein was working for Mossad.
What was curious about the interview with Andrew is how he stuck his foot in it now and again, ("I have a tendency to be too honorable"), and how he never alluded to schedules kept by his staff or his security detail or the producers of the court circulars at Buckingham Palace. You would think if you wanted to refute someone's account, records of where you were then would be crucial. The Palace has revealed itself to be oddly unprofessional in some circumstances - the tabloids were able to place an infiltrator on the service staff some years back without much effort - so you have to ask if they just trash the records or do not keep them. (Or if, perhaps, the records tell a different story). He says he was present a few times at Epstein's Florida estate, but at least one member of Epstein's housekeeping staff has said in a deposition that he was there about 4x a year over a half-dozen years. Someone's not telling the truth. He says he recalls with precision where he was on 10 March 2001, because there was some family gathering that involved him collecting pizzas. That's not the least bit plausible, but "the security logs indicate I was at x place on that date" would be plausible. "I don't sweat much dancing" is plausible; "I have a medical condition which appeared during the Falklands War which prevents me from sweating" sounds off the wall. He's either telling the truth or he's a lousy liar.
It also presupposes a cultural matrix where shame is possible and respectability is valued. David Letterman isn’t ashamed about having been serviced by employees (which acts included a period of time when he had a common-law wife and a child). I rather liked Carl Paladino, the Buffalo businessman who ran for Governor of New York some years back. It was noted only in passing that he’d fathered a child out of wedlock with a paramour, something his wife had let slide. (IIRC, she looked after this youngster now and again).
Murder is also still frowned upon, they say.
The answer to that question is critical.
Or, Acosta took a bribe and used the intelligence angle as an excuse figuring that it would somehow go away.Replies: @JimDandy, @Don't Look at Me
That’s a key question, but that whole issue has been essentially ignored by the media–and even most of the people who are supposedly outraged about Epstein. The “Epstein didn’t kill himself” movement is kind of a distraction. The thing is, if momentum did build to get to the bottom of Acosta’s statement, Acosta would be ordered to say he was mistaken, and that would be the end of it.
What’s it like working as a hasbara scribe? Do you get paid? Were you recruited? Do you hang out with other hasbara in your free time?
I don’t think Ari Ben Menashe is valued except as a source of click-bait.
What was curious about the interview with Andrew is how he stuck his foot in it now and again, (“I have a tendency to be too honorable”), and how he never alluded to schedules kept by his staff or his security detail or the producers of the court circulars at Buckingham Palace. You would think if you wanted to refute someone’s account, records of where you were then would be crucial. The Palace has revealed itself to be oddly unprofessional in some circumstances – the tabloids were able to place an infiltrator on the service staff some years back without much effort – so you have to ask if they just trash the records or do not keep them. (Or if, perhaps, the records tell a different story). He says he was present a few times at Epstein’s Florida estate, but at least one member of Epstein’s housekeeping staff has said in a deposition that he was there about 4x a year over a half-dozen years. Someone’s not telling the truth. He says he recalls with precision where he was on 10 March 2001, because there was some family gathering that involved him collecting pizzas. That’s not the least bit plausible, but “the security logs indicate I was at x place on that date” would be plausible. “I don’t sweat much dancing” is plausible; “I have a medical condition which appeared during the Falklands War which prevents me from sweating” sounds off the wall. He’s either telling the truth or he’s a lousy liar.
I have somewhere in my abode old scribbled office diaries. I know I’ve got back to 2007 and perhaps 1999.
If someone tells you they are a secret agent and blackmailer, then they are up to something other than espionage and extortion. The one thing Epstein never claimed to be was a child molester.
Always on the job, aren't you, Sean?
I'm curious. Do you call your own plays, or are you coached from the sidelines? Kenny Stabler or Terry Bradshaw?
Epstein apparently did claim to be, if not a secret agent, then at least somebody engaged in clandestine dealings, at some times to some people. But not to everybody. And I’m not aware that he ever claimed to be a black-mailer. There are people like Sidney Reilly and Dusko Popov – adventurers, they used to be called – who were widely suspected of being shady characters, spies probably, agents of influence at least, who none-the-less continued to work as spies or agents of influence despite the fact that a lot of people were on to them.
Didn’t Eric Weinstein talk to Dave Rubin about having been invited with a group of young scientists by a friend of his, who owns an island, without saying who that friend was?
Well, Eric Weinstein might know quite a few people who own an island and invite over young scientists. But in this talk with Sam Harris, Eric Weinstein talks about how Epstein did support young scientists he knew.
Might still be a coincidence.
Was LaRouche onto something?
We know who he would blame for Epstein’s demise. 😛
Epstein or no Epstein, Mossad or no Mossad: the real thing is that average female sexual morality has never been so abysmally low. This is much more disconcerting than all these pimps and spooks.
It is true that some, perhaps many of those girls had been vulnerable etc., but let’s not fool ourselves: many were just sluts in the making. And I don’t want to hear the usual “blaming the victim” stuff.
Stefan Molyneux, whatever he may be, has recorded a rather good video where a sugar daddy, some confused guy in his 60s, confesses his experiences with good, some even great looking & affluent girls, 18-25 years age range, who went with him for no reason at all (no gerontophilia, no real financial reasons, no nothing except emptiness of soul & boredom with life).
This is the issue of our times, not a hairy con-man:
Mr. Sailer, your work here reminds me of a typical piece from the National Inquirer. Now, it is certainly POSSIBLE that Epstein worked for Mossad, but you offer a lot of fluff here. Besides, I thought that Jews embellish, at best, or outright deceive, at worst, so why should we believe Epstein? By chance, is your friend Jewish?
“Earlier, he’d recounted the one time he’d sat in on a meeting involving Epstein, his boss, and visitors identified as being from Mossad.”
Assuming they were from Israeli intelligence. They could have been Jews in expensive suits. When was this meeting? Where? What were the names of these “visitors”?
“That’s not proof, but I…”
Felt compelled to write this sentence that enables me to say without question that Epstein was with Mossad, although it has yet to be definitively proven. Of course, we do know that Attorney General Barr’s father was the conduit here, having offered Epstein a teaching job in 1973 at a prestigious boys boarding school. Apparently, Ben Barr, having been captivated by Epstein’s charm, then introduced Epstein to Barr’s cronies, presumably who worked for Mossad.
“I questioned him closely about his change of mind and he said he hadn’t believed the Mossad rumors until he’d gone through his old log books documenting his interactions with Epstein and his boss and their phone calls.”
So, on a related front, if we have phone call and email logs about a current president’s lawyer who interacts with corrupt Russians and/or Ukrainians to illegally assist in a reelection campaign, can we can that this lawyer is working against the interests of the general public?
Asking for a friend…
“Now, after looking through his old records and finding a pattern compatible with extensive Mossad contacts…”
What old records are we talking about? What were those specific patterns? Perhaps your friend ought to contact law enforcement, government officials, or Fox News, since we allegedly have major breaking news. I mean, if he or she has those NOTICING skills, perhaps the proper authorities may be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt.
I always figure it was one of the many rich guys he had dirt on. Whether they had connections to Mossad, we'll probably never know.Replies: @Anon, @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan, @Corvinus
“The guy didn’t kill himself. I don’t know who did it. I never found the claims Mossad was behind 9/11 that convincing–would they risk the blowback if they got caught?”
But we do know. From Q-Anon, by way of Neon Revolt, who sells merchandise, too! Apparently, a prominent Jewish lawyer from an Ivy School was given the green light by Trump to take care of this “problem”.
Well, Eric Weinstein might know quite a few people who own an island and invite over young scientists. But in this talk with Sam Harris, Eric Weinstein talks about how Epstein did support young scientists he knew.
Might still be a coincidence.Replies: @J.Ross
Bear in mind though that after Epstein was convicted and registered as a sex offender, he had almost total freedom, and used that to start to rebuild his reputation by rebranding as a Great Patron of Science. The main Epstein web search result back when this was still conspiracy theory was an pro Epstein page decorated with testimonials from researchers about how Epstein money made their discoveries possible. A random physics postdoc isn’t getting the same personal assistant as William Jefferson. So it must be the case that Epstein has clouded the waters with a lot of true innocents, who know him only as a guy strangely eager to dump cash into theoretical physics.
In fact this has come out, and made it into popular entertainment like Sicario: the CIA can do what it is not normally allowed to do if that isn’t a pure CIA operation, ie, if they are “supervised” by a token presence from another agency.
Now consider the Strzok-Page “romance.”
How many influencial people (policymakers, opinion shapers, etc.) may have been involved with Jeffrey Epstein’s underage girls are there of which we may not even be aware? Who knows?
Ehud Barak is a scum-bag. I knew that since he sabotaged peace negotiations. When I found out that he rapes children, it wasn’t a shock.
Of course, neither Prince Andrew, nor Dershowitz, nor Barak will spend a day in jail.
1. He didn't do the former.
2. Who claimed he did the latter?
‘Epstein seemed to be more linked to former PM Ehud Barak than to Bibi.’
You need to keep up. That’s definitely gone down the memory hole.
‘If someone tells you they are a secret agent and blackmailer, then they are up to something other than espionage and extortion. The one thing Epstein never claimed to be was a child molester.’
Always on the job, aren’t you, Sean?
I’m curious. Do you call your own plays, or are you coached from the sidelines? Kenny Stabler or Terry Bradshaw?
Why do you think that Dershowitz is innocent?
He’s been accused of sexual harassment of his students multiple times. He gets away with it because he has powerful friends in both parties.
Trial lawyers have reputations of using bribery and outside interference to win cases. This is because trial lawyers n tend to be big-spending loudmouths always living large paycheck to large paycheck; goes with the territory of being great in court. Trial lawyers are rap stars. But that said, that means when they flop in court they're in big trouble both ego-wise and in their bank book and reputation. And juries can be unpredictable, even for guys who are great at working them, so a string of losses can come and not be the dude's fault.
So many resort to illegal means to keep the wins coming. Bribing comes to mind. Clarence Darrow himself got put on trial twice because he bribed a jury on a case he was the lawyer for. He hired the best lawyer besides himself to defend these criminal charges----Earl Rogers--- and the crooked Darrow managed to escape a conviction on both. Most biographers today believe Darrow did the bribing.
Rogers was so straight-arrow and brilliant that he served as the basis for Perry Mason: https://infogalactic.com/info/Earl_Rogers
David Boeis, the famed trial lawyer, has been accused credibly of using outside intimidation against opponent witnesses. No surprise Boeis is also known as a big-time gambler in Atlantic City.
Hilarious the comments whenever this issue is discussed. Spin, spin, kvetch, distract, smear.
Les Wexner was Epstein’s “handler.” Wexner ran the American Jewish Zionist “MEGA Group” which was so powerful than Israelis complained about “American meddling.” Wexner’s co-captains of MEGA Group, the Bronfman brothers, well, their daughters ran the “Nvxium” sex-trafficking and blackmail ring that did something similar to what the Ghislaine Maxwell/Jeffrey Epstein ring was doing.
Ehud Barak, the prime minister of Israel, was a friend of Maxwell/Epstein and a frequent guest at the “parties.”
The idea that Wexner and the Bronfmans were “Mossad” is ridiculous. They are the people that tell Ehud Barak and Benjamin Netanyahu, who tell Mossad, what to do. Wexner and the Bronfman’s are far above Mossad.
And the idea that Les Wexner, billionaire oligarch and life-long organized crime don, was a “dupe” or a “victim” of some nobody like Jeffrey Epstein is absurd – and likely just another half-hearted attempt to protect the guilty.
Ghislaine Maxwell was likely the actual Mossad agent – and the brains behind the operation.
Like with most “kosher” scandals, ignore the peanut gallery squirting squid ink and just look at the facts – it’s usually pretty obvious what is going on.
Even Corvinus seems out of caricature, and actually rattled.
Hm, isn’t being a Mossad member like being a member of Fight Club?
In my opinion, having Epstein blackmail prominent politicians didn’t seem that necessary. The Israel Lobby and donors like Sheldon Adelson can openly buy politicians.It seems to me hooking up a congressman with campaign donations and a lavish trip to Israel is much easier.
This sounds like more than old calendars, Brett Kavanaugh. Given the supposed fame of the individual I would have thought work notes and call logs would be covered by an NDA and handed back upon termination but perhaps Steve’s friend felt the need of keeping some ‘insurance’ on hand…
Not really.Replies: @Redneck farmer
Well, if he shared his info with Mossad’s American counterparts, they would help protect him.
Epstein was donating to scientists before his legal problems began.
My impression of the timeline is that AG Barr’s father inherited Epstein as a school teacher when he became head of Dalton, then got rid of Epstein.
But I could be wrong.
In general, I don’t have strong views on the Epstein story other than it is obviously interesting.
I had earlier posted on why this one person who knew Epstein back in the day had discounted Mossad rumors. And so I felt it a good thing to update readers that he had now changed his mind on the question after recently doing more research in his old papers.
“Jayden, this is my pervy billionaire friend Jeff Epstein, please keep him entertained.”
“Jayden, I am meeting with some Mossad agents at 2, would you like to sit in with us? Please take notes on paper.”
He’s been accused of sexual harassment of his students multiple times. He gets away with it because he has powerful friends in both parties.Replies: @R.G. Camara, @Art Deco
And, I hate to say it, he’s a very good trial lawyer—which means he is very good at legal intimidation, and likely illegal intimidation as well.
Trial lawyers have reputations of using bribery and outside interference to win cases. This is because trial lawyers n tend to be big-spending loudmouths always living large paycheck to large paycheck; goes with the territory of being great in court. Trial lawyers are rap stars. But that said, that means when they flop in court they’re in big trouble both ego-wise and in their bank book and reputation. And juries can be unpredictable, even for guys who are great at working them, so a string of losses can come and not be the dude’s fault.
So many resort to illegal means to keep the wins coming. Bribing comes to mind. Clarence Darrow himself got put on trial twice because he bribed a jury on a case he was the lawyer for. He hired the best lawyer besides himself to defend these criminal charges—-Earl Rogers— and the crooked Darrow managed to escape a conviction on both. Most biographers today believe Darrow did the bribing.
Rogers was so straight-arrow and brilliant that he served as the basis for Perry Mason: https://infogalactic.com/info/Earl_Rogers
David Boeis, the famed trial lawyer, has been accused credibly of using outside intimidation against opponent witnesses. No surprise Boeis is also known as a big-time gambler in Atlantic City.
Ben Barr hired Jeffery Epstein–Barr’s history with Epstein stretches back to the ‘70s, when Barr’s father hired Epstein to teach mathematics at Manhattan’s prestigious Dalton School. And Barr previously worked for Kirkland & Ellis, a law firm that represented Epstein during the 2008 Florida investigation.
Source–https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisettevoytko/2019/08/12/attorney-general-barr-facing-criticism-blames-jail-for-epsteins-death/#4082beac1cf5
“In general, I don’t have strong views on the Epstein story other than it is obviously interesting.”
But you do have strong views on Epstein. Allegedly, he worked for Israeli intelligence. It is also worth NOTICING the ties that the Barr’s had/have with him. Could it be that the Barr’s had a similar relationship with Mossad?
“And so I felt it a good thing to update readers that he had now changed his mind on the question after recently doing more research in his old papers.”
Except it is rather vague as to what that research constitutes in these “old papers”. Perhaps answering my questions on the matter would offer clarity.
And what about my other inquiry, the one that my friend asked? What say you, Mr. Sailer?
My mistake but the larger point stands: association with Epstein by itself is not a big deal: association when a rising star in politics (or maybe top level business or entertainment), and especially given known proclivities, is the marker.
“…AG Barr’s father inherited Epstein as a school teacher when he became head of Dalton, then got rid of Epstein.” – He [Barr] was headmaster of the Dalton School from 1964 to 1974, when he resigned, citing conflicts with the board of trustees. (Wiki)
Didn’t Paul McCartney sing about this 50 years ago?
Mossad, Mossad
Sometimes he feels Mossad
Alone in his corner office he’d dwell
Till the mole of his dreams comes to break the spell
Paul had dealings with another suicidal Epstein. Coincidence?
“‘Eleanor Rigby’ in New York City.” Yeah, right.
Steve, please ask your friend if Epstein was really a financial advisor. I’ve heard that people who are actually in that industry have conversed with him and he didn’t appear to be especially knowledgeable in that area.
That’s some internship.
“Jayden, this is my pervy billionaire friend Jeff Epstein, please keep him entertained.”
“Jayden, I am meeting with some Mossad agents at 2, would you like to sit in with us? Please take notes on paper.”
The answer to that question is critical.
Or, Acosta took a bribe and used the intelligence angle as an excuse figuring that it would somehow go away.Replies: @JimDandy, @Don't Look at Me
Alternate theory. Acosta saw the small army of high end lawyers at Epstein disposal, to include Alan Dershowitz, recalled what happened at the OJ trial, and realized his federal employee lawyers were intellectually outgunned. So he gave them everything they wanted to get some sort of conviction and avoid a trial he would probably lose.
How quaint.Replies: @Sean
I think they have the passenger lists of the flights to his island (not all of whom were there to sample the women).
Of course, neither Prince Andrew, nor Dershowitz, nor Barak will spend a day in jail.Replies: @Art Deco
Ehud Barak is a scum-bag. I knew that since he sabotaged peace negotiations. When I found out that he rapes children, it wasn’t a shock.
1. He didn’t do the former.
2. Who claimed he did the latter?
He’s been accused of sexual harassment of his students multiple times. He gets away with it because he has powerful friends in both parties.Replies: @R.G. Camara, @Art Deco
Epstein was a client of his, so he had an explicable reason to associate with him. He traveled to the island with his wife and daughter in tow. If I’m not mistaken, there is documentary evidence that he wasn’t in locations at times when his accuser insisted he’d ravished her. And, while we’re at it, it’s his accuser’s job to provide evidence an allegation is true, not his to demonstrate it’s false. I know nothing of any ‘harassment’ allegations against him from Harvard Law School.
There were a lot of impossible Dr. Mengele sightings in Nazi camps. Just because a lot of these reports were mistaken or inaccurate doesn’t mean Dr. Mengele did no crimes.Replies: @Art Deco
No, that's not true. Lawyers do NOT associate with clients on a personal basis and you know it.
Think about this, guys: do you hang out with your lawyer? Doctor? Accountant?
A lawyer, especially, should be very leery of any personal associations with dodgy clients.
"He traveled to the island with his wife and daughter in tow. "
That makes it worse.
"If I’m not mistaken, there is documentary evidence that he wasn’t in locations at times when his accuser insisted he’d ravished her."
His notes, and it remains to be seen whether they are corroborated.Replies: @Art Deco
That is why blackmailers use children or underage kids, both male and female, as bait for entrapment. Pedophilia is still thankfully out of bounds… for the moment.
Murder is also still frowned upon, they say.
You guys are missing the big picture.
Epstein gave big money to MIT. The result was that he was able to ease drop on many private conversations to become the ultimate insider trading scheme for his investments and for his friends. The little kids were just a cover story or as rewards for his friends.
The involvement of the Clinton’s is important. The Clinton’s gave so much technology to the Chinese that China is now a world power. Have you ever thought Epstein works for the Chinese?
That may be the case, but it is just a silly conspiracy theory all the same.
I have worked in prisons, and I can tell you that even if the camera facing the door of Epstein’s cell was not functioning, the hallways and entrances to the federal jail will have been closely monitored, and it is simply not possible that assassins could have entered the facility, which is staffed with federal employees, got into the wing where Epstein was housed undetected, obtained keys to Epstein’s cell, entered, killed Epstein, exited, locked the cell again, replaced the keys without waking up the keyholders, and left the building undetected without a massive conspiracy in effect in which at the very least several people would have had to be paid off and sworn to eternal silence.
Just not possible, so it is sad that so many middle-aged moms and others who ought to know better are so deluded. Probably the problem is that these days too many people believe that TV and movies are real life.
Except that it was, from the beginning of this event, the official story, not a speculation, that they were not monitored. There was a freakishly convenient and bizarrely total failure of security resulting in guards getting charged.Replies: @Jonathan Mason
>the hallways and entrances will have been closely monitored
Except that it was, from the beginning of this event, the official story, not a speculation, that they were not monitored. There was a freakishly convenient and bizarrely total failure of security resulting in guards getting charged.
Although I do not know the exact layout of Epstein's jail, to get in from the front door a person would typically have to pass through at least 6 remotely operated doors and gates to get to the outside of Epstein's cell door and then would have to obtain a mechanical cell door key from one of the guards in that dorm to get into the cell. And then pass through the same number of doors and crash gates to get out. These doors and gates are arranged to control foot traffic of inmates and staff and are monitored by camera.
Internal crash gates and doors in prisons are typically in pairs with a caged area between a pair of gates and doors arranged so that only one gate or door at a time can be open.
Reports on the actual lay out of the prison and camera malfunctions are only typically as below and as far as I know no detailed information has (yet) been released to the public.
At least one of the security cameras in the hallway outside the cell of Jeffrey Epstein at the Metropolitan Correction Center in New York City “had footage that is unusable” for investigative purposes, according to a report in the Washington Post.
The Post said the information about the video recordings was provided by “three people briefed on the evidence gathered earlier this month,” following Epstein’s death on August 10.
The Post’s anonymous sources did not explain what is wrong with the damaged video footage, why it is unusable or what is usable from other camera recordings in the area of the federal prison where Epstein was being held.
“It’s unclear whether the flaw in the taping affected a limited duration of the footage or whether it was a chronic problem in the beleaguered Manhattan facility,” the Post report stated. None of the government agencies involved in the Epstein case—the Bureau of Prisons, the FBI, the US Justice Department or the US attorney’s office in Manhattan—would comment on the revelation.
Except that it was, from the beginning of this event, the official story, not a speculation, that they were not monitored. There was a freakishly convenient and bizarrely total failure of security resulting in guards getting charged.Replies: @Jonathan Mason
No, you and I are talking about completely different things. I acknowledge the the guards in Epsteins dormitory were not doing their job and that there was some kind of camera malfunction in his dorm area, but typically in a prison all the crash gates and doors in a facility are electronically operated and opened by a central control point where the operators can see who is entering via cameras in the corridors.
Although I do not know the exact layout of Epstein’s jail, to get in from the front door a person would typically have to pass through at least 6 remotely operated doors and gates to get to the outside of Epstein’s cell door and then would have to obtain a mechanical cell door key from one of the guards in that dorm to get into the cell. And then pass through the same number of doors and crash gates to get out. These doors and gates are arranged to control foot traffic of inmates and staff and are monitored by camera.
Internal crash gates and doors in prisons are typically in pairs with a caged area between a pair of gates and doors arranged so that only one gate or door at a time can be open.
Reports on the actual lay out of the prison and camera malfunctions are only typically as below and as far as I know no detailed information has (yet) been released to the public.
At least one of the security cameras in the hallway outside the cell of Jeffrey Epstein at the Metropolitan Correction Center in New York City “had footage that is unusable” for investigative purposes, according to a report in the Washington Post.
The Post said the information about the video recordings was provided by “three people briefed on the evidence gathered earlier this month,” following Epstein’s death on August 10.
The Post’s anonymous sources did not explain what is wrong with the damaged video footage, why it is unusable or what is usable from other camera recordings in the area of the federal prison where Epstein was being held.
“It’s unclear whether the flaw in the taping affected a limited duration of the footage or whether it was a chronic problem in the beleaguered Manhattan facility,” the Post report stated. None of the government agencies involved in the Epstein case—the Bureau of Prisons, the FBI, the US Justice Department or the US attorney’s office in Manhattan—would comment on the revelation.
So that’s why the government only seems to favor certain people, it’s simply that their lawyers would “intellectually outgun” the DOJ?
How quaint.
Epstein was convicted of suborning prostitution from a girl under 18, which made it easy for him to spin into something that would not get him completely ostracised. The Palm Beach teens shared tens of millions in restitution, a half a million each or so.
Epstein only got a plea deal from the state, the feds could do their usual extremely thorough and lengthy investigation and charge him with exactly the same things, which is basically what happened, and he had zero chance of beating it.
The worst thing that ever happened to Epstein was Trump getting elected, everyone was suddenly interested in the Palm Beach Epstein--Trump connections.
Epstein most certainly did claim to be a blackmailer, He promoted himself as freelance secret agent, acting for governments or malefactors whichever paid most, when he was trying to get a journalist to write a book about him in the eighties. Last year Epstein told a NYT journalist that he had compromising material on top tech magnates (he met with Bill Gates over a philanthropy but Gates said Epstein failed to come up with any money). Epstein was living beyond his means, or at least in a declining financial position, during the latter years of his life.
There was another interview around the same time in which Epstein “rambled” about the big tech people he knew to business reporters at his mansion. Every reporter who was around him decided he was full of it.
Horny-as-a-jackrabbit hornswoggler, yes Epstein was like Rosenblum all right.
Les Wexner was Epstein's "handler." Wexner ran the American Jewish Zionist "MEGA Group" which was so powerful than Israelis complained about "American meddling." Wexner's co-captains of MEGA Group, the Bronfman brothers, well, their daughters ran the "Nvxium" sex-trafficking and blackmail ring that did something similar to what the Ghislaine Maxwell/Jeffrey Epstein ring was doing.
Ehud Barak, the prime minister of Israel, was a friend of Maxwell/Epstein and a frequent guest at the "parties."
The idea that Wexner and the Bronfmans were "Mossad" is ridiculous. They are the people that tell Ehud Barak and Benjamin Netanyahu, who tell Mossad, what to do. Wexner and the Bronfman's are far above Mossad.
And the idea that Les Wexner, billionaire oligarch and life-long organized crime don, was a "dupe" or a "victim" of some nobody like Jeffrey Epstein is absurd - and likely just another half-hearted attempt to protect the guilty.
Ghislaine Maxwell was likely the actual Mossad agent - and the brains behind the operation.
Like with most "kosher" scandals, ignore the peanut gallery squirting squid ink and just look at the facts - it's usually pretty obvious what is going on.Replies: @anonymous
“Hilarious the comments whenever this issue is discussed. Spin, spin, kvetch, distract, smear.”
Even Corvinus seems out of caricature, and actually rattled.
How quaint.Replies: @Sean
Dershowitz is an appellate specialist and he pointed out in the context of the Russia gate prosecutions that a plea deal is only the end of those charges, and having pled guilty you will be a slam dunk if the prosecution then want to hit you with something else.
Epstein was convicted of suborning prostitution from a girl under 18, which made it easy for him to spin into something that would not get him completely ostracised. The Palm Beach teens shared tens of millions in restitution, a half a million each or so.
Epstein only got a plea deal from the state, the feds could do their usual extremely thorough and lengthy investigation and charge him with exactly the same things, which is basically what happened, and he had zero chance of beating it.
The worst thing that ever happened to Epstein was Trump getting elected, everyone was suddenly interested in the Palm Beach Epstein–Trump connections.
And he (Rosenblum) was indeed a spy. Also, saying you have dirt on people is not the same as saying “I engage in blackmail”.
then smoked weed
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS8Z1bxQVIiiw0jF-ukcfiWEdmuyYbrQZUtEvZouNJDCr4d1IEl&sAnyway, saying you have photos of them in the act is pretty much saying you are a blackmailer because it shows you had taken steps to ensure the misconduct was recorded. It was pathetic and weak for Epstein to say he had anything on him, and transparently trying to big himself up. But the point is what would be in it for Epstein to say such things if he really had such compromising material? He clearly named Musk, given the context.Epstein had ceased to be taken seriously by business journalists, and despite his rep as a donor to Harvard scientists were refusing to come to his island for scientific conferences. Sean Carroll the physicist said he declined such an invitation because Epstein was a known sleaze and life is too short. People who saw Epstein in the last couple of years of his life described him as shuffling and "rambling".
I find it amusing that people find it odd that an elite private school would hire a highly intelligent and obviously charming man to teach maths despite limited experience. Actually elite private schools do that all the time, my uncle was hired straight from Cambridge to teach classics.
An Australian youth name Hugh Jackman spent a year at Uppingham school in England as a Physical Education teacher between high school and university. His athletic ability came in useful later on when he joined a circus.
You are certainly correct in so far as calling-out the “child-rape camp” characterization used by the individual you replied-to for the lurid, hysterical, and even libelous hyperbole that it is. Whatever else Epstein may have been (including, no doubt, quite a sleazebag), I am not aware of any evidence or even accusations that have surfaced to-date that would justify calling him a child rapist.
As for your averring that that the adolescent females-in-question were “happy to oblige”, well, there I would have to challenge you somewhat. Even if we could safely know that they were truly so happy (which itself I would question), would that absolve the behavior of Epstein, a much-older adult? Is an adult who offers an adolescent illicit drugs or alcohol absolved for doing so as long as said adolescent happily obliges the offer? Should coitus be different in this regard?
(Also, this may come across as pedantic, but I would quibble with your unqualified characterization of “late adolescents”. Weren’t at least some of the girls as young as fourteen? Isn’t fourteen closer to mid-adolescence for a girl?)
An interesting and possibly instructive thought exercise would to be imagine the Jeffrey Epstein scandal inverted as follows: If Epstein had been a non-Jew and most of his purported victims had been Jewish. What, then, would be the reaction of those who now portray Epstein as a characteristically Jewish defiler of pristine Christian virtue? I suspect that the reaction of more than a few of the very same individuals would, in the inverted hypothetical I propose, be correspondingly inverted; that they would denounce the hypothetical Jewish teenagers as conniving sluts and whores, cynically exploiting and extorting a fundamentally decent, if flawed, man.
~ ~ ~
Not Raul wrote that Ehud Barak “rapes children”.
ATBOTL wrote
What is the basis for those lurid claims?
Note, one's moral standing is not established by someone having exploited one for immoral purposes. These women (and their delinquent parents) are not particularly sympathetic figures en bloc (though individuals among them may have been of such disposition as to make them sympathetic on close inspection).
Rosenblum was lured to Moscow by the ‘Trust’ a pseudo anti Bolshevik organisation operating in the Soviet Union that was actually a Soviet intelligence sting (much later the long running Trust op’s neutralising and financial draining of the White Russian emigree opposition and Western agencies sympathetic to them was obsessively studied by James Angleton the Israel and CIA counter intel head). It was stupid to imagine an anti government organisation could survive in the a country where speakers of esperanto, boy scouts and astronomers, basically anyone with foreign connections was being arrested and shot en mass. It was the same when Hitler took power, the people who had fled were printing up anti Nazi leaflets and there were furious arguments with those still in the country about how dangerous it was to distribute them.
Stewart went to talk to Epstein about Tesla and the claims were probably about Elon Musk. Considering that Musk had already appeared in public with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimes_(musician). and had her and Azealia Banks staying at his house
then smoked weed
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS8Z1bxQVIiiw0jF-ukcfiWEdmuyYbrQZUtEvZouNJDCr4d1IEl&s
Anyway, saying you have photos of them in the act is pretty much saying you are a blackmailer because it shows you had taken steps to ensure the misconduct was recorded. It was pathetic and weak for Epstein to say he had anything on him, and transparently trying to big himself up. But the point is what would be in it for Epstein to say such things if he really had such compromising material? He clearly named Musk, given the context.
Epstein had ceased to be taken seriously by business journalists, and despite his rep as a donor to Harvard scientists were refusing to come to his island for scientific conferences. Sean Carroll the physicist said he declined such an invitation because Epstein was a known sleaze and life is too short. People who saw Epstein in the last couple of years of his life described him as shuffling and “rambling”.
Rosenblum was both a conman and a spy. Are you denying that? Epstein appears to have been a conman and…………..a known associate of Mossad agents and associate of people associated with Mossad agents. So, he might also have been a spy.
Epstein didn’t even have a college degree. That is unusual for a teacher, at least in America.
Of course his career does reek of Jewish privilege too.Replies: @Mr. Anon
There were no “flights to the island”. It doesn’t have a runway, at least not big enough to accomodate Epstein’s 727. People flew to the Virgin Islands and then took a boat or a helicopter to Little St. James. There probably aren’t passenger logs for those. How many people, I wonder, flew commercial to the Virgins for the purpose of visiting Epstein’s island? Just speculation of course, but there might be more damning information available if one could look into that.
If you run through the documents, you'll notice 'aircraft make and model' lists it as "B-727-31" aircraft identifier 'N908JE'. "Points of Departure and Arrival" has a 'From' and a 'To' column. Among the abbreviations are "PBI" (Palm Beach) and "TIST" which is Cyril King Airport on St. Thomas. The passengers traveling are listed with initials, with "JE" seen over and over. I suppose some of his passengers could have gotten off on St. Thomas and not traveled to Little St. James.Replies: @Mr. Anon
Not Raul wrote that Ehud Barak "rapes children". ATBOTL wroteWhat is the basis for those lurid claims?Replies: @Art Deco
It doesn’t absolve Maxwell and Epstein: they ran a criminal enterprise. They just weren’t running a child-rape camp.
Note, one’s moral standing is not established by someone having exploited one for immoral purposes. These women (and their delinquent parents) are not particularly sympathetic figures en bloc (though individuals among them may have been of such disposition as to make them sympathetic on close inspection).
Ok, you’re cool with statutory rape. Got it. You do understand that’s a crime for a reason? I suppose you think it’s to entrap innocent men.
I get it, you wish you could still get with the girls you got in high school or maybe didn’t get.
In New York law, fornicating with a 17 year old youth is not unlawful. Fornicating with a 15 or 16 year old youth is unlawful, but the severity of the charge depends on the age of the john. It's a class A misdemeanor for johns under 21 and a class E felony for johns over 21. Presumably, Florida law and USVI law differs on some details.Replies: @Mr. Anon
It wasn’t a front for anything else. He was a working broker-dealer who had a side business managing money. Only he never made any investments for his clients, just forwarded ‘interest’, ‘dividends’, and ‘redemptions’ from the new accounts flowing in. The woman who was the linchpin of the operation said he hired her in 1968, he trained her how to do her work, and her work responsibilities did not vary over a period of 40 years. The original Ponzi scheme imploded after less than a year. That he kept his going for 40+ years is most amazing.
‘,
Apropos comments from an iSteve Jeffrey Epstein thread from back in August. From Intelligent Dasein:
From my reply:
If the accuser really was held against her will and raped repeatedly, why would you expect her to have particularly accurate notes?
There were a lot of impossible Dr. Mengele sightings in Nazi camps. Just because a lot of these reports were mistaken or inaccurate doesn’t mean Dr. Mengele did no crimes.
I do hope you're never put on a jury.Replies: @Not Raul
I get it, you wish you could still get with the girls you got in high school or maybe didn't get.Replies: @Art Deco, @Jack D
No, I’m not. However, I’m cognizant of how to use written English, and a set up where you have adolescents just to one side or another of a legal boundary is not a ‘child rape camp’.
In New York law, fornicating with a 17 year old youth is not unlawful. Fornicating with a 15 or 16 year old youth is unlawful, but the severity of the charge depends on the age of the john. It’s a class A misdemeanor for johns under 21 and a class E felony for johns over 21. Presumably, Florida law and USVI law differs on some details.
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/1507315-epstein-flight-manifests.html
If you run through the documents, you’ll notice ‘aircraft make and model’ lists it as “B-727-31” aircraft identifier ‘N908JE’. “Points of Departure and Arrival” has a ‘From’ and a ‘To’ column. Among the abbreviations are “PBI” (Palm Beach) and “TIST” which is Cyril King Airport on St. Thomas. The passengers traveling are listed with initials, with “JE” seen over and over. I suppose some of his passengers could have gotten off on St. Thomas and not traveled to Little St. James.
There were a lot of impossible Dr. Mengele sightings in Nazi camps. Just because a lot of these reports were mistaken or inaccurate doesn’t mean Dr. Mengele did no crimes.Replies: @Art Deco
Again, he who asserts must prove. That aside, she says she saw someone at place x in a given time frame and they were demonstrably elsewhere and there is no other evidence they were ever there. (One of these women insists she met Tipper Gore at Little St. James; Tipper Gore says she’s never been there. If the records are on Mrs. Gore’s side, that rather tends to vitiate the accuser’s credibility).
I do hope you’re never put on a jury.
I think that there is enough evidence to indict Dershowitz; but I’d need to see more evidence before I’d convict.
I get it, you wish you could still get with the girls you got in high school or maybe didn't get.Replies: @Art Deco, @Jack D
So is smoking marijuana and going above the speed limit and yet millions of people have been doing it. And if teenagers having sex was really a crime that was prosecuted, then 1/2 the teenagers in America should be in prison.
The reasons must not be that strong or clear because the age of consent varies between states and countries quite a bit. AFAIK, murder or forcible rape is a crime everywhere on earth, but sleeping with a 17 year old may be a crime in one place but if you drive 5 minutes across the state line it’s legal, so that strikes me as more of a judgment call than something that has clear reasons attached to it. Or if you take the girl out on Monday, it’s a crime but if you wait until her birthday on Friday, it’s not a crime – that’s a strange sort of crime. If I kill you any day of the week it’s still the same crime. And some even highly advanced countries such as S. Korea set the age of consent as early as 13. I think all the huffiness associated with Epstein has more to do with America’s general puritanical streak (we swing back and forth between puritanical and libertine) than any real clear moral violation.
In general, teenagers present an edge case – they are not fully adults and they are no longer children. Some activities we allow them to do (drive) and others we don’t (vote). Sometime we hold them responsible for crimes and other times we don’t. But to me at least it’s difficult to build up a head of moral steam over something where there is far from universal agreement. I think (or at least hope) that almost everyone on earth would agree that if Epstein was sleeping with 9 year old girls, that would be a shocking crime and we could consider him to be the monster that he is made out to be now. But Epstein sleeping with 17 year old girls? Is that really worse than sleeping with 18 year olds, where one is a crime where they lock you up for life and the other is 100% legal? Maybe it was illegal but there are a lot of things that are illegal that maybe shouldn’t be illegal.
1.) Both seem pretty sleazy. (Legal distinctions and considerations aside). (All fornication is, really.)
While it's not unnatural for a man to desire a sexually mature teenage girl, there are valid social considerations that weigh against the pursuit of such desires. (With the possible of exception of within a marriage.)
And, certainly, it does not seem terribly healthy for a fully adult man with reasonably attractive females of legal age available to him to exclusively or even predominately pursue underage ones. At least not as long as doing so carries the stigma and risks that it does in our present society.2.) Were Epstein's alleged crimes involving minors limited to the mere act of fornicating with them personally? Isn't there more that is alleged?~ ~ ~
A few hypothetical, highly-qualified cases in which sexual intimacy between an adult and an adolescent may arguably be justified (at least as a lesser evil):
(A) Woman-boy where boy would otherwise be defiling a pristine maiden; (B) Woman-boy where boy is less-than-confident about his sexuality and intent is to steer him toward normative heterosexuality; (C) Man-boy where man absolutely opposes and eschews buggery*, sodomy* and general "LGBTQ" depravity, and 2) boy would otherwise be intimate with someone of considerably lesser scruples. Detailed hypothetical case here. *Buggery and sodomy are defined here in a way that would exclude acts, such as FROT and interfemoral intercourse, that do not employ the use of any orifice.Replies: @Jack D
“Epstein was a client of his, so he had an explicable reason to associate with him. ”
No, that’s not true. Lawyers do NOT associate with clients on a personal basis and you know it.
Think about this, guys: do you hang out with your lawyer? Doctor? Accountant?
A lawyer, especially, should be very leery of any personal associations with dodgy clients.
“He traveled to the island with his wife and daughter in tow. ”
That makes it worse.
“If I’m not mistaken, there is documentary evidence that he wasn’t in locations at times when his accuser insisted he’d ravished her.”
His notes, and it remains to be seen whether they are corroborated.
My mother and father had two lawyers in their circle of friends, both of whom were members of firms which had done work for them. One of the doctors she'd consulted was also a friend late in life.
No, it doesn't 'make it worse' that his wife and daughter visited the island with him, for reasons that are obvious.Replies: @Jane Plain
Hello James.
No, that's not true. Lawyers do NOT associate with clients on a personal basis and you know it.
Think about this, guys: do you hang out with your lawyer? Doctor? Accountant?
A lawyer, especially, should be very leery of any personal associations with dodgy clients.
"He traveled to the island with his wife and daughter in tow. "
That makes it worse.
"If I’m not mistaken, there is documentary evidence that he wasn’t in locations at times when his accuser insisted he’d ravished her."
His notes, and it remains to be seen whether they are corroborated.Replies: @Art Deco
He had reason to meet with him professionally.
My mother and father had two lawyers in their circle of friends, both of whom were members of firms which had done work for them. One of the doctors she’d consulted was also a friend late in life.
No, it doesn’t ‘make it worse’ that his wife and daughter visited the island with him, for reasons that are obvious.
When you learn the meaning of the word "office" and "appointment" get back to me.
"My mother and father had two lawyers in their circle of friends, both of whom were members of firms which had done work for them. One of the doctors she’d consulted was also a friend late in life."
So what? Last I heard, having friendships with doctors and lawyers wasn't illegal.
It is very questionable for a lawyer to travel ostensibly on business to the home of a client unless the client is disabled. My mother's lawyer did so when she was unable to travel to him. But they conducted business only, and I can assure you she wasn't running a brothel in the home. Were your parents? Epstein was. Dershowitz should have stayed away. See above: office and appointment.
"No, it doesn’t ‘make it worse’ that his wife and daughter visited the island with him, for reasons that are obvious."
The reasons are not obvious to me at all. Perhaps you might explain them.
I haven’t really looked into the details, but I am delighted that more and more people (even more-trusting women) assume the media are lying, quite apart from the merits of this particular “conspiracy theory.”
My mother and father had two lawyers in their circle of friends, both of whom were members of firms which had done work for them. One of the doctors she'd consulted was also a friend late in life.
No, it doesn't 'make it worse' that his wife and daughter visited the island with him, for reasons that are obvious.Replies: @Jane Plain
“He had reason to meet with him professionally.”
When you learn the meaning of the word “office” and “appointment” get back to me.
“My mother and father had two lawyers in their circle of friends, both of whom were members of firms which had done work for them. One of the doctors she’d consulted was also a friend late in life.”
So what? Last I heard, having friendships with doctors and lawyers wasn’t illegal.
It is very questionable for a lawyer to travel ostensibly on business to the home of a client unless the client is disabled. My mother’s lawyer did so when she was unable to travel to him. But they conducted business only, and I can assure you she wasn’t running a brothel in the home. Were your parents? Epstein was. Dershowitz should have stayed away. See above: office and appointment.
“No, it doesn’t ‘make it worse’ that his wife and daughter visited the island with him, for reasons that are obvious.”
The reasons are not obvious to me at all. Perhaps you might explain them.
Hoo boy.
Epstein didn’t run a “child-rape camp,” he only “recruited late adolescents who could not give consent with legal force but were happy to oblige.”
If you have sex with someone underage, it’s irrelevant whether they are “happy to oblige.” Anyway how do you know they were “happy to oblige.” Did they tell you? Did they say that in any of the numerous interviews they’ve given? Or is that jaunty little phrase your spin?
Young people are often quite “obliging” – that’s why we have laws against taking advantage of them. Because they are stupid, obliging, have little judgement and find it hard to say “no.”
You said to someone else you are happy they aren’t on a jury. I’m happy you don’t make our laws.
“He got away with it because their parents were complicit or clueless.”
Very likely and so what? That doesn’t exculpate their exploiters, it makes them double victims although you seem to think that sneering at the fact they had low-class, unprotective parents strengthens your point. It doesn’t. It makes you look like a heartless POS.
And anyway, duh. Girls with protective Daddies don’t end up in child-rape camps, excuse me, ephebophile dens. Tell me something I don’t know.
What was going on was obvious. All the more reason for Dershowitz to have restricted his dealings with Epstein to an office.
Even if you make a criminal complaint and commit perjury by lying on the witness stand during the resultant criminal prosecution, it is very unlikely anything would happen to you unless you are foolish enough to confess to lying. There is no doubt that as a sophisticated much older man Epstein brutally exploited her, and in her shoes anyone would feel angry, but the question is whether she is purveying falsehoods about her personally having sex with Dershowitz, Wexner, and 'numerous world leaders' all filmed as part of a blackmail scheme or voyeur fetish Epstein had. If some of it is a calculated calumny I am afraid all must be discounted. If you want to be believed just tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing and you will not be tripped up on important verifiable details.
Anyway, the penalties for statutory 'rape' are a very different thing to 'rape' rape. So even if they have a cast iron case the girl's willing participation is always a factor (along with how under age she was and how much older the man was) relevant to whether the man gets prosecuted or not, and whether on being prosecuted he gets probation or serves several years of hard time.I would have thought Epstein was not going to be obviously committing about the worst crime there is unless he wanted to swap his Manhattan mansion for a penitentiary. In Miami Beach he was the pimp, the only client, and more careless than the average drug dealer admittedly, but he can not have been going on like that for decades. He got jaded with barely legal models, ended up with a 14 year old schoolgirl and a conviction with prison time.Guiffre was 17 years old when she first met Epstein, her father was a groundskeeper -manager at the Trump Palm Beach resort, and ran her to the interview with Epstein for the job. She informed her father about all the travel and luxury lifestyle (he was under the impression she had met the Queen). But she never told him about anything untoward that was happening in the two years until she was 19 and sent to a massage course in Thailand from where she decided to go to Australia.Replies: @Jane Plain, @Jane Plain
But why would Mossad tolerate such openly scandalous behavior in one of its agents, and thereby drawing lots of unwanted scrutiny?
If you falsely allege a man had sex with you when you were 15, then admit you were at least 17 when caught in a proven untruth in the resultant civil defamation case, and it is revealed you never mention the man’s name to your journalist collaborator on a tell all book until she said ‘don’t forget about Dershowitz he is famous’ you can still make money out of various media opportunities, especially you have a photo with Prince Andrew (and soft peddle your original story about Andrew you and a gaggle of young girls in an orgy, because Andrew as Champion the Wonder Horse has little credibility to Britons).
Even if you make a criminal complaint and commit perjury by lying on the witness stand during the resultant criminal prosecution, it is very unlikely anything would happen to you unless you are foolish enough to confess to lying. There is no doubt that as a sophisticated much older man Epstein brutally exploited her, and in her shoes anyone would feel angry, but the question is whether she is purveying falsehoods about her personally having sex with Dershowitz, Wexner, and ‘numerous world leaders’ all filmed as part of a blackmail scheme or voyeur fetish Epstein had. If some of it is a calculated calumny I am afraid all must be discounted. If you want to be believed just tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing and you will not be tripped up on important verifiable details.
Anyway, the penalties for statutory ‘rape’ are a very different thing to ‘rape’ rape. So even if they have a cast iron case the girl’s willing participation is always a factor (along with how under age she was and how much older the man was) relevant to whether the man gets prosecuted or not, and whether on being prosecuted he gets probation or serves several years of hard time.
I would have thought Epstein was not going to be obviously committing about the worst crime there is unless he wanted to swap his Manhattan mansion for a penitentiary. In Miami Beach he was the pimp, the only client, and more careless than the average drug dealer admittedly, but he can not have been going on like that for decades. He got jaded with barely legal models, ended up with a 14 year old schoolgirl and a conviction with prison time.
Guiffre was 17 years old when she first met Epstein, her father was a groundskeeper -manager at the Trump Palm Beach resort, and ran her to the interview with Epstein for the job. She informed her father about all the travel and luxury lifestyle (he was under the impression she had met the Queen). But she never told him about anything untoward that was happening in the two years until she was 19 and sent to a massage course in Thailand from where she decided to go to Australia.
"He got jaded with barely legal models, ended up with a 14 year old schoolgirl and a conviction with prison time."
Sean, I'm not going to ask you to read this and understand what you wrote, because I think you are beyond reason, but everyone else here should read it and laugh.Replies: @Sean
If you run through the documents, you'll notice 'aircraft make and model' lists it as "B-727-31" aircraft identifier 'N908JE'. "Points of Departure and Arrival" has a 'From' and a 'To' column. Among the abbreviations are "PBI" (Palm Beach) and "TIST" which is Cyril King Airport on St. Thomas. The passengers traveling are listed with initials, with "JE" seen over and over. I suppose some of his passengers could have gotten off on St. Thomas and not traveled to Little St. James.Replies: @Mr. Anon
Again – there are no “flights to the Island”. There are flights to another island, St. Thomas.
And some of Epstein’s guests might have flown to St. Thomas commercial and continued on to Little St. James without leaving much of any trace.
In New York law, fornicating with a 17 year old youth is not unlawful. Fornicating with a 15 or 16 year old youth is unlawful, but the severity of the charge depends on the age of the john. It's a class A misdemeanor for johns under 21 and a class E felony for johns over 21. Presumably, Florida law and USVI law differs on some details.Replies: @Mr. Anon
You seem to have very detailed knowledge of these things.
One might wonder what happens on those trips to Israel. Do they go with or without their wives? Are they booked into particular hotel rooms? Is the Wailing Wall the only thing those Congressmen kiss?
There’s certainly no dearth of pendulum swings, as well as contradictions, outright paradoxes, and blatant hypocrisies.
With regard to the Epstein case, what of the question I posed earlier: Had Epstein been a non-Jew and most of his purported victims Jewish, would we hear the same moralistic condemnations of Epstein as a defiler of pristine young maidens that we hear now from the usual suspects? Or would they instead condemn the hypothetical Jewish teenage girls as contemptible opportunistic sluts and whores who shamelessly corrupted and are now scheming to take down a decent, if flawed, non-Jewish man?
While appreciating your larger point concerning ambiguities in law and variations between jurisdictions, I would note/ask the following.
1.) Both seem pretty sleazy. (Legal distinctions and considerations aside). (All fornication is, really.)
While it’s not unnatural for a man to desire a sexually mature teenage girl, there are valid social considerations that weigh against the pursuit of such desires. (With the possible of exception of within a marriage.)
And, certainly, it does not seem terribly healthy for a fully adult man with reasonably attractive females of legal age available to him to exclusively or even predominately pursue underage ones. At least not as long as doing so carries the stigma and risks that it does in our present society.
2.) Were Epstein’s alleged crimes involving minors limited to the mere act of fornicating with them personally? Isn’t there more that is alleged?
~ ~ ~
A few hypothetical, highly-qualified cases in which sexual intimacy between an adult and an adolescent may arguably be justified (at least as a lesser evil):
(A) Woman-boy where boy would otherwise be defiling a pristine maiden; (B) Woman-boy where boy is less-than-confident about his sexuality and intent is to steer him toward normative heterosexuality; (C) Man-boy where man absolutely opposes and eschews buggery*, sodomy* and general “LGBTQ” depravity, and 2) boy would otherwise be intimate with someone of considerably lesser scruples. Detailed hypothetical case here.
*Buggery and sodomy are defined here in a way that would exclude acts, such as FROT and interfemoral intercourse, that do not employ the use of any orifice.
But that train left the station a LONG time ago. Generally nowadays we allow people who are competent enough to make their own decisions to decide whether and with whom they want to have sex and leave the government out of the bedroom. At what age do teenagers possess the necessary competency? I think 16 sounds about right, maybe with Romeo and Juliet exceptions down to 14 for teenagers messing around with each other. Maybe it should go beyond just a rigid numeric test, where the judge and/or jury determine if the teen in question was mature enough to make such a decision.
Is an older man having sex with a 16 year old girl distasteful? Generally yes, but I can think of a lot of things that are distasteful to me personally (virtually any sort of homosexual act) that the law no longer considers to be criminal. Criminal and socially undesirable are two different things.Replies: @Art Deco
Steve,
Now think about the implications – for the US, for US politics, for Israel, for the US-Israeli partnership, and for the Middle East – of Epstein having been identified, shamed, humiliated, having his cover blown, and then being rubbed out.
Epstein’s bones being very publicly chucked out signifies that there is a very big shift happening in the metaphorical bulldog fight going on under the rug.
Even if you make a criminal complaint and commit perjury by lying on the witness stand during the resultant criminal prosecution, it is very unlikely anything would happen to you unless you are foolish enough to confess to lying. There is no doubt that as a sophisticated much older man Epstein brutally exploited her, and in her shoes anyone would feel angry, but the question is whether she is purveying falsehoods about her personally having sex with Dershowitz, Wexner, and 'numerous world leaders' all filmed as part of a blackmail scheme or voyeur fetish Epstein had. If some of it is a calculated calumny I am afraid all must be discounted. If you want to be believed just tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing and you will not be tripped up on important verifiable details.
Anyway, the penalties for statutory 'rape' are a very different thing to 'rape' rape. So even if they have a cast iron case the girl's willing participation is always a factor (along with how under age she was and how much older the man was) relevant to whether the man gets prosecuted or not, and whether on being prosecuted he gets probation or serves several years of hard time.I would have thought Epstein was not going to be obviously committing about the worst crime there is unless he wanted to swap his Manhattan mansion for a penitentiary. In Miami Beach he was the pimp, the only client, and more careless than the average drug dealer admittedly, but he can not have been going on like that for decades. He got jaded with barely legal models, ended up with a 14 year old schoolgirl and a conviction with prison time.Guiffre was 17 years old when she first met Epstein, her father was a groundskeeper -manager at the Trump Palm Beach resort, and ran her to the interview with Epstein for the job. She informed her father about all the travel and luxury lifestyle (he was under the impression she had met the Queen). But she never told him about anything untoward that was happening in the two years until she was 19 and sent to a massage course in Thailand from where she decided to go to Australia.Replies: @Jane Plain, @Jane Plain
In your first paragraph, you keep referring to an abstract “you” — presumably Giuffre.
Epstein was guilty of having sex with underage girls. I’m not referring to Giuffre, just the facts.
Nor am I arguing that Dershowitz is guilty. I don’t know that.
In our system, Epstein deserves representation and Dershowitz was his guy. Not arguing otherwise.
But Epstein was guilty of crimes against underage girls, and Dershowitz should have kept his nose clean by staying far away from Epstein’s personal life. It was, indeed, obvious to those who were personally involved with Epstein. I don’t think that casual acquaintances should be judged. But Dershowitz was no casual acquaintance. I’m positive that Dershowitz knew way more than he’s letting on. Lawyers pay private investigators to dig up dirt.
The rest of what you wrote is irrelevant.
“Guiffre was 17 years old when she first met Epstein, her father was a groundskeeper -manager at the Trump Palm Beach resort, and ran her to the interview with Epstein for the job. She informed her father about all the travel and luxury lifestyle (he was under the impression she had met the Queen). But she never told him about anything untoward that was happening in the two years until she was 19 and sent to a massage course in Thailand from where she decided to go to Australia.”
So what?
What scrutiny?
Even if you make a criminal complaint and commit perjury by lying on the witness stand during the resultant criminal prosecution, it is very unlikely anything would happen to you unless you are foolish enough to confess to lying. There is no doubt that as a sophisticated much older man Epstein brutally exploited her, and in her shoes anyone would feel angry, but the question is whether she is purveying falsehoods about her personally having sex with Dershowitz, Wexner, and 'numerous world leaders' all filmed as part of a blackmail scheme or voyeur fetish Epstein had. If some of it is a calculated calumny I am afraid all must be discounted. If you want to be believed just tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing and you will not be tripped up on important verifiable details.
Anyway, the penalties for statutory 'rape' are a very different thing to 'rape' rape. So even if they have a cast iron case the girl's willing participation is always a factor (along with how under age she was and how much older the man was) relevant to whether the man gets prosecuted or not, and whether on being prosecuted he gets probation or serves several years of hard time.I would have thought Epstein was not going to be obviously committing about the worst crime there is unless he wanted to swap his Manhattan mansion for a penitentiary. In Miami Beach he was the pimp, the only client, and more careless than the average drug dealer admittedly, but he can not have been going on like that for decades. He got jaded with barely legal models, ended up with a 14 year old schoolgirl and a conviction with prison time.Guiffre was 17 years old when she first met Epstein, her father was a groundskeeper -manager at the Trump Palm Beach resort, and ran her to the interview with Epstein for the job. She informed her father about all the travel and luxury lifestyle (he was under the impression she had met the Queen). But she never told him about anything untoward that was happening in the two years until she was 19 and sent to a massage course in Thailand from where she decided to go to Australia.Replies: @Jane Plain, @Jane Plain
PS At some point (I don’t know the year) Trump barred Epstein from Mar A Lago. For smoking on the premises?
“He got jaded with barely legal models, ended up with a 14 year old schoolgirl and a conviction with prison time.”
Sean, I’m not going to ask you to read this and understand what you wrote, because I think you are beyond reason, but everyone else here should read it and laugh.
1.) Both seem pretty sleazy. (Legal distinctions and considerations aside). (All fornication is, really.)
While it's not unnatural for a man to desire a sexually mature teenage girl, there are valid social considerations that weigh against the pursuit of such desires. (With the possible of exception of within a marriage.)
And, certainly, it does not seem terribly healthy for a fully adult man with reasonably attractive females of legal age available to him to exclusively or even predominately pursue underage ones. At least not as long as doing so carries the stigma and risks that it does in our present society.2.) Were Epstein's alleged crimes involving minors limited to the mere act of fornicating with them personally? Isn't there more that is alleged?~ ~ ~
A few hypothetical, highly-qualified cases in which sexual intimacy between an adult and an adolescent may arguably be justified (at least as a lesser evil):
(A) Woman-boy where boy would otherwise be defiling a pristine maiden; (B) Woman-boy where boy is less-than-confident about his sexuality and intent is to steer him toward normative heterosexuality; (C) Man-boy where man absolutely opposes and eschews buggery*, sodomy* and general "LGBTQ" depravity, and 2) boy would otherwise be intimate with someone of considerably lesser scruples. Detailed hypothetical case here. *Buggery and sodomy are defined here in a way that would exclude acts, such as FROT and interfemoral intercourse, that do not employ the use of any orifice.Replies: @Jack D
Arguably (at least to some people) sex should only occur between a husband and a wife and solely for reproductive purposes and all other fornication is socially undesirable and maybe should be illegal.
But that train left the station a LONG time ago. Generally nowadays we allow people who are competent enough to make their own decisions to decide whether and with whom they want to have sex and leave the government out of the bedroom. At what age do teenagers possess the necessary competency? I think 16 sounds about right, maybe with Romeo and Juliet exceptions down to 14 for teenagers messing around with each other. Maybe it should go beyond just a rigid numeric test, where the judge and/or jury determine if the teen in question was mature enough to make such a decision.
Is an older man having sex with a 16 year old girl distasteful? Generally yes, but I can think of a lot of things that are distasteful to me personally (virtually any sort of homosexual act) that the law no longer considers to be criminal. Criminal and socially undesirable are two different things.
‘Twas not I started it by referring to an abstract “you” when replying to Art. I was giving you a taste of your own medicine. In regard to your assertion the “What was going on was obvious. All the more reason for Dershowitz to have restricted his dealings with Epstein to an office“, Alan Dershowitz is an appellate attorney, so he is someone who represents people convicted of murder or whatever, but not a go to guy for avoiding a conviction, certainly not in Florida.. He was not the main lawyer on Epstein Palm Beach case and seems to have been roped in mainly as a name having became friendly with Epstein long .
You can sneer that anyone who was around Epstein must have known, but the idea that someone would be open about the fact that he was engaging in what many people think is the most despicable crime there is not plausible. Epstein first came to have a MSM profile because he was hanging around with Bill Clinton, and so Giuffre originally was implying she had had sex with Clinton given that she had said she had sex with a president.
Dershowitz merely said there was no federal case, and Epstein got immunity from federal charges . Epstein pled guilty to soliciting a woman under 18 year old, and Ehud Barak (ex Israeli PM who Giuffre also implied she had had sex with, was under the impression had simply been convicted of paying a legal age teenager for sex.
This is the former PM and head of Israeli military intelligence.. What Epstein was convicted of occured between him and girls, they never saw anyone but Epstein at the rather modest Palm Beach. Dershowitz was not around him after 2009, when he visited him in prison.
There here is a long time rival of Dershwitz representing Giuffre but the case was obscure until the MSM became desperate for anything to stop Trump. Prince Andrew is a much easier target than Dershowitz. There was little publicity about the case, until it looked like Trump might be elected. Trump banned his former acquaintance Epstein fro the resort for making a pass at a Trump Palm Beach resort masseuse. There was this woman Randsome saying she had sex tapes of Trump and the Clintons plus and other woman saying Trump raped her at an Epstein party . A Jewish prisoner assigned to keep Epstein company says when a French woman asked what white trash is Trump replied “It’s me without the money”. The elite hate Trump and Dershowitz for defending him.
"He got jaded with barely legal models, ended up with a 14 year old schoolgirl and a conviction with prison time."
Sean, I'm not going to ask you to read this and understand what you wrote, because I think you are beyond reason, but everyone else here should read it and laugh.Replies: @Sean
Given he was less careful that the average drug dealer, it is implausible that Epstein had been abusing under age girls in front of celebrities or anyone else for decades. He sank to that at a late stage and kept it quiet. Those girls never saw anyone but Epstein at the Palm Beach house. He was a Pimp and John all rolled into one.
This is true, and the age of consent in the UK, where Prince Andrew is alleged to have had his first encounter with Ms. Roberts is 16. So he could have been legal with her the first time, but not the second time when in a different time zone.
However these varying ages of consent are probably irrelevant because the real age of consent is 18 by international treaty when prostitution is concerned.
I believe this is covered by the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, optional protocol number 2, which the United States has ratified, although it has not ratified the full convention in the Senate, (although it did originally sign the convention).
Incidentally, the US has been in breach of the UN Convention of the Rights of the Child in the care of asylum-seeking immigrant children, so it is just as well that it is the only nation in the world that has not yet ratified the convention, although, to be fair the convention does not apply in the territories of Akrotiri and Dhekelia, Gibraltar, Guernsey, Tokelau, so the US is certainly not alone.
Article 9 of the conventions states that “States Parties shall ensure that a child shall not be separated from his or her parents against their will, except when competent authorities subject to judicial review determine, in accordance with applicable laws and procedures, that such separation is necessary for the best interests of the child (usually in the case of abusive parents)..
(You would think that since the Senate will have to show up in force for the Burning At The Stake Trial of Donald J. Trump, they could possibly tack on an amendment to ratify the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child.)
Anyway, I am not a lawyer, but it appears that if Mr. Epstein paid Roberts to have sex with Prince Andrew, that was a federal offense if she was under the age of 18, as that meets the legal definition of the child. If Prince Andrew knew she was being paid, I guess he also committed a crime.
Of course PROVING that she was paid and PROVING that various parties knew this is pretty difficult to do 20 years later, and there may be an applicable statute of limitations.
[Incidentally, part of the reason why I know about the convention is that the custody agreement that grants my wife and I custody of my step-daughter includes numerous references to the various sections of the Convention on the Rights of the Child and I have had to submit translations from Spanish to English more than one time for official purposes.]
What’s your point?
Epstein spent several years at the Courant Institute and skipped two grades at high school. Private schools will hire raw talent, they have the freedom and good sense to.
Of course his career does reek of Jewish privilege too.
But that train left the station a LONG time ago. Generally nowadays we allow people who are competent enough to make their own decisions to decide whether and with whom they want to have sex and leave the government out of the bedroom. At what age do teenagers possess the necessary competency? I think 16 sounds about right, maybe with Romeo and Juliet exceptions down to 14 for teenagers messing around with each other. Maybe it should go beyond just a rigid numeric test, where the judge and/or jury determine if the teen in question was mature enough to make such a decision.
Is an older man having sex with a 16 year old girl distasteful? Generally yes, but I can think of a lot of things that are distasteful to me personally (virtually any sort of homosexual act) that the law no longer considers to be criminal. Criminal and socially undesirable are two different things.Replies: @Art Deco
But that train left the station a LONG time ago. Generally nowadays we allow people who are competent enough to make their own decisions to decide whether and with whom they want to have sex and leave the government out of the bedroom. At what age do teenagers possess the necessary competency? I think 16 sounds about right, maybe with Romeo and Juliet exceptions down to 14 for teenagers messing around with each other. Maybe it should go beyond just a rigid numeric test, where the judge and/or jury determine if the teen in question was mature enough to make such a decision.
Actually, the young aren’t particularly competent to make their own decisions and they’re less competent at given ages than they were 60 years ago. However, legislators have to make rough prudential decisions about the degree to which we have legal and formal remedies protecting people from the wiles of others and their own bad judgment. The whole culture surrounding sex and human relations in this country is gross, but there’s a limit to the degree to which the law can repair that, and there would be even if the legal profession were a promoter of decency, which it is not.
And if you’re prudent. you never allow judges to make discretionary decisions in any realm other than technical points of law.
Of course his career does reek of Jewish privilege too.Replies: @Mr. Anon
Maybe in the UK. But in America,……………far less likely. Americans are big on official credentials.
I do hope you're never put on a jury.Replies: @Not Raul
If I were put on a jury, I’d be a lot more worried about making a type 1 error than a type 2 error.
I think that there is enough evidence to indict Dershowitz; but I’d need to see more evidence before I’d convict.
Seems like Epstein is clearly in cahoots with mossad based on recent relevations. Somewhat suspicious that your contact switches his mind right when the winds begin to change.
Israel and Saudi Arabia…the usual suspects. now im just waitng for the 9/11 confessions to start rolling in
Maybe he was a cop? Lol