RSS
A reader whose father worked for decades as a waiter in New York City celebrity restaurants (like Toots Shor, 21, the Palm, etc.) said her father said the all time best customer — biggest tipper, friendliest, funniest — was Muhammad Ali.
From my review of Michael Mann’s 2001 movie Ali, a strange misfire despite having Will Smith as the champ:
In one of the most frustrating disappointments in recent years, Mann depicts Muhammad Ali — the incomparably extroverted, entertaining, and infuriating celebrity of the 20th Century — as a morose introvert, a loner who seems to drag his own personal cloud of gloom around with him. …
The movie isn’t quite as worshipful as one would expect, given Ali’s current saintly image. Its main criticism of Ali is that when his friend Malcolm X stopped preaching racial loathing in 1964 and left the Black Muslims, Ali turned his back on him. Throughout the movie, Ali remained a follower of Elijah Muhammad’s hate-driven Nation of Islam, even after Elijah’s followers murdered Malcolm in 1965.
Of course, Mann skips over much else about Ali that doesn’t fit today’s stereotype.
The racism Ali displayed in his sneering at of the nearly jet-black Joe Frazier, an inarticulate but magnificent warrior, is covered up in the movie.
Ali managed to accuse Frazier, who had loaned Ali money during his draft evasion legal battles, of both being too white and too black. Ali’s hometown Louisville Courier-Journal noted last June, “Ali quickly turned on Frazier, portraying him as an Uncle Tom, a clown, a white man in a black man’s body …
He taunted him mercilessly … In a thinly veiled racial attack, light-skinned Ali called the darker-skinned Frazier a ‘gorilla.'”
Nor does Mann mention that he was illiterate, as Ali openly admitted. Early in his career, his IQ tested at 78. Gerald Early, a prominent black studies professor and editor of the “Muhammad Ali Reader,” commented, “He hadn’t a single idea in his head, really … I think the score was an honest reflection of Ali’s mental abilities.”
Yet, Early notes, “He was intuitive, glib, richly gregarious, and intensely creative, like an artist.” Ali’s vivid personality changed how athletes behave.
Before Ali, jocks were expected to act modest, fair, and kind, just like public school boys in Victorian England, where most modern sports were formalized.
Ali was, in the words of famed sportswriter Frank Deford, “the original trash talker.” He liberated athletes in most sports (other than golf) from the code of the British gentleman. He led sports back to the in-your-face braggadocio of ancient warriors like Goliath and Hector. Fans loved Ali’s chest-thumping, few athletes since have possessed his humor. Ali’s charmless children include Barry Bonds, John McEnroe, Allen Iverson, and Randy Moss.
Still, despite Ali’s flaws, he didn’t deserve Mann’s glum treatment. He was brave, hard working, sensationally gifted, triumphant, and, most of all, fun.
Little known fact: the President’s friend Tony Rezko had been Muhammad Ali’s business manager for the Nation of Islam, a.k.a., the Black Muslims, even though Rezko is neither black nor Muslim.
An admirable man.
Like what you see?Replies: @Anonymous, @No_0ne
Achilles was the braggart, not Hector.
RIP
Hell no. Look up nation of Islam, circa 1965-75.
Like what you see?
Ali kept trolling Frazier in retirement. There was a story about some dinner a few years before Frazier died where George Foreman and other boxers took turns keeping Frazier from slugging Ali.
Like what you see?Replies: @Anonymous, @No_0ne
Enemy of my enemy and all…
Yet at this blog, everyone went to hell due to Kennedy and the Irish.
Note: "A philosophy of despair" is identifying with one's own people. Thus spake the Anglo.Replies: @Pat Hannagan, @Hibernian
agreed–tyson in his prime would have thrashed ali in his prime
Not the same as beating someone in prime but who did Tyson really beat? An old Larry Holmes?Replies: @Brutusale
I wonder how much White blood Muhammad Ali’s grandson has.
That’s overstating the case, especially re: Moss.
There’s no way that the almost musical streams of jive talking that would pour forth from Muhammad Ali reflected an IQ of merely 78. In this case I’m almost willing to say that the test must have been “culturally biased against people like him.”
With that being said, I’m sorry he became a radicalized black and a Muslim. I hope he repented in his final moments.
Farewell, Cassius.
What's my name?
Don't be embarrassed. We've all made this mistake at one time or another, it shows your basic good nature. But don't be dangerously naive either. You could get hurt.
Here's a link to some good advice that could keep you alive: http://thosewhocansee.blogspot.fr/2013/07/we-are-wild-animals-treat-us-as-such.htmlReplies: @Anonymous, @Kylie, @Hippopotamusdrome
''some people 'look very' intelligent when you hear them, talking with them, but this is not translated in good iq scores. So they are not 'really' smart''
inverted order of factors.
And there is also ''factual comprehension/understanding'', when you perceive, internalize, understand and even may develop ABOUT ((facts))
A lot of ''higher iq'' ones no have a good factual comprehension.
The ultimate being the voice of God from the whirlwind to Job. Keeping a clear demarcation between man and God was a more pressing concern for the Victorians than our erstwhile supermen.
Ali schooling some British cuckold on interracial marriage:
Yet one of Ali's daughters got impregnated by a White man and he did not disown her.
What happens to all the hatred bottled up inside someone like Ali when he dies? Is it released back into the environment?
Is there some kind law of conservation of hatred like that in physics for the conservation of energy or angular momentum?
Ali even hated his fellow negroes taunting poor Joe Frazier for being too simian-like:
from the Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/in-trilogy-with-muhammad-ali-the-words-hurt-joe-frazier-most/2011/11/08/gIQAgfUc3M_story.html
We remember Ali calling Frazier “ugly,” an “Uncle Tom” and, especially, a “gorilla.” And even those of us too young to have stayed up to learn the result of a 15-round prizefight in the 1970s recall how black people laughed and laughed at this.
“I’m cringing in my car right now just thinking about it,” says Janks Morton Jr. He visited Frazier in Philadelphia in the early 1970s with his dad, Janks Morton Sr., who trained Sugar Ray Leonard and was close friends with Frazier’s sparring partner, heavyweight champ-to-be Ken Norton. “I can still see [Ali] sitting next to Howard Cosell punching that [rubber] black gorilla, saying, ‘It’s going to be a thrilla in Manila when I kill that gorilla.’ ”
http://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/islam/2005/02/muhammad-alis-new-spiritual-quest.aspxPeace.
Someone told me Ali made tons of money with shrewd real estate investments. Don’t know if it’s true.
Tony Rezko was his business manager.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=HqiWFLsgVi4
I don't think he was only bright in a verbal sense, although I'm not accusing him of, say, mathematical genius, either.Replies: @Truth, @I, Libertine, @I, Libertine
With that being said, I'm sorry he became a radicalized black and a Muslim. I hope he repented in his final moments.
Farewell, Cassius.Replies: @Anonymous, @Ed, @PiltdownMan, @anon, @Santoculto, @Hippopotamusdrome
They say his Nation of Islam entourage would feed him lines to say to the media.
I’ll hit him so hard, he’ll wonder where November went" is awfully glib for 22 (with a 78 IQ, yet).
Those of you criticizing him for his Nation of Islam beliefs might want to make a little effort researching the last 40 years of his life before concluding that there was nothing admirable about him.
I really don't care how nice he got in his old age. He never denounced the Black Muslims or tried to repair the damage he did to Black-White relations.Replies: @officious intermeddler, @Triumph104
from the Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/in-trilogy-with-muhammad-ali-the-words-hurt-joe-frazier-most/2011/11/08/gIQAgfUc3M_story.htmlWe remember Ali calling Frazier “ugly,” an “Uncle Tom” and, especially, a “gorilla.” And even those of us too young to have stayed up to learn the result of a 15-round prizefight in the 1970s recall how black people laughed and laughed at this.“I’m cringing in my car right now just thinking about it,” says Janks Morton Jr. He visited Frazier in Philadelphia in the early 1970s with his dad, Janks Morton Sr., who trained Sugar Ray Leonard and was close friends with Frazier’s sparring partner, heavyweight champ-to-be Ken Norton. “I can still see [Ali] sitting next to Howard Cosell punching that [rubber] black gorilla, saying, ‘It’s going to be a thrilla in Manila when I kill that gorilla.’ ”Replies: @Talha, @Kevin O'Keeffe, @Anonymous
You’re judging him only by his Nation of Islam phase (and of course, youthful lack of introspection) – in which he was taught that racialism was an integral part of his religion – White Man = Devil and all that jazz. He left all that when he converted to Sunni Islam along with most of the Nation under the guidance of Imam Warith Deen Muhammad.
Later in life he was very spiritual:
http://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/islam/2005/02/muhammad-alis-new-spiritual-quest.aspx
Peace.
Incidentally, Ali’s great grandfather was Irish, who are known for boxing and the gift of gab. His boxing ability, gift of gab, and verbal obnoxiousness may derive from his Irishness.
http://www.alltech.com/blog/posts/muhammad-ali-irish-great-grandfather
A very bright man, with the courage not just to say what he thinks, but to think what he will.
He seems a bright guy. I have doubts about his 78 IQ. His illiteracy may have played a part, although I know many IQ tests don’t depend on literacy. Just saying he seems a lot brighter than 78 IQ:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=HqiWFLsgVi4
I don’t think he was only bright in a verbal sense, although I’m not accusing him of, say, mathematical genius, either.
And you wonder why people disparage your IQs.Replies: @Jus' Sayin'..., @Buffalo Joe, @celt darnell, @BB753
I've remarked on this site before that the only reason he got in trouble with the draft board was because, owning to an understandable drop in enlistments in 1967, the Army drastically lowered the minimum score on the mental test that he had previously been adjudged to have flunked abjectly. Yeah, maybe he threw that fight, but this video isn't contradictory evidence.
BTW, would you guess from this rant that his maternal great-grandfather was Irish? Boy, that must have stung him!
You're confusing glibness with intelligence. You really believe that guy sounds like Bertrand Russell?
A few decades ago, do-gooder-type psychologists came up with the idea that poor performance by NAMs on IQ tests was a function of cultural bias. So they stopped using questions like those from the old WAIS or Stanford- Binet like "who wrote Faust?" and added questions like "which shape comes next"? Guess what happened.Replies: @Hibernian
Agree. Moss was hilarious and also a good teammate when he was on a team worth respecting.
Right, an IQ of 78 = “a very bright man”.
Wishful thinking.
One has to consider the possibility that he didn’t actually avoid the draft, but simply failed the mental test instead and then became a ‘draft dodger’.
He deliberately copied Gorgeous George, a white “pro” wrestler who had a big mouth and long hair if I remember correctly.
To me it feels like Muhammad Ali had already been dead for many years, after all he could barely speak in the 21st Century. He was already dying a slow death, so I didn’t get the shock factor with the announcement of his passing.
To me it is more of a shocker when a celebrity who looks relatively healthy all of a sudden drops dead, like Prince and John Ritter for example.
When confronted by the press about his low IQ score, Ali said “I always said I was the greatest, not the smartest.” When he was training for his second match against Sonny Liston in Boston (a match that had to be postponed and rescheduled for Lewiston, Maine because Ali got hit with an appendicitis attack), I went with a college buddy to the small gym where he was working out. He was the most beautiful man I have ever seen. To see him spar in the ring with his sparring partner was truly impressive. He was so quick and graceful. Truly “floated like a butterfly and stung like a bee.” It was a small gym and we were about the only people watching, which meant we were about 25 feet away from the sparring ring. I was also stunned to see how big he was after reading all the stories in the press about how Sonny Liston towered over him with his scowl. Ali was two inches taller, had several inches in reach over Liston and outweighed Liston by a good 15 pounds when I saw him. No wonder my college friend from Louisville cleaned up on the first fight betting a good deal of money at 7 to 1 odds. Later, when Ali met Frazier in their first fight, I happened to be skiing in Innsbruck, Austria with my girlfriend. Because of budgetary constraints, we were staying in a pension with no TV. The night of the fight we checked into a hotel with a TV in the lobby and got a wakeup call around 3 am (because of the time difference) and joined a fairly large crowd in the lobby to watch the fight. I was cheering for Ali all the way but realized that the judges’ decision at the conclusion of the fight was the right one. It was the most memorable and exciting sporting event I have ever watched, in person or on TV. During his career, I always rooted for Ali, but after he retired I concluded that Joe Frazier was the much better man. He put up with all that crap from Ali with a great deal of dignity, and, based on what I read, he conducted himself the same way in all aspects of his life.
BTW I rather enjoyed John McEnroe’s antics when he played and saw the humor in what he did. Apparently, he did too based on the commercials he made after he retired. I was also a big McEnroe fan because of his artistry as a tennis player.
www.amazon.com/dp/1412851807Replies: @tbraton
His mother was extremely light skinned .
My vague recollection is that Ali’s IQ score was too low to be drafted initially due to the Congressional ban on the bottom 10%, but then McNamara’s Project 100,000 for scraping the bottom of the IQ barrel made him eligible.
Like so many larger-than-life celebrity icons he had a few glaringly negative personality traits which included cockiness and a huge chip on his shoulder. However he was a charismstic showman, both in the boxing ring and out; a Titan among sportsmen. May he Rest in Peace
Note the Anglo beggingly disclaiming any difference between himself and the Black man. Beggingly.
Yet at this blog, everyone went to hell due to Kennedy and the Irish.
Note: “A philosophy of despair” is identifying with one’s own people. Thus spake the Anglo.
How did this comment get up and my other comments didn't?
Sheesh, I am going to have to reformulate my pattern recognition of what riles your whim.
What, did you just wake up?
Go back to bed, Steve, it's 2am:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtjmQ6DwojsReplies: @Pat Hannagan
Yet at this blog, everyone went to hell due to Kennedy and the Irish.
Note: "A philosophy of despair" is identifying with one's own people. Thus spake the Anglo.Replies: @Pat Hannagan, @Hibernian
What the…?
How did this comment get up and my other comments didn’t?
Sheesh, I am going to have to reformulate my pattern recognition of what riles your whim.
What, did you just wake up?
Go back to bed, Steve, it’s 2am:
I have a feeling Steve Harvey has a similar IQ as the late Muhammad Ali.
Steve Harvey makes George W. Bush seem like Stephen Hawking.
I can’t believe someone that unintelligent hosts Family Feud. He has to be an affirmative action case. Steve Harvey is an extremely poor replacement for John O’Hurley.
Not if you're producing the show, Old Sport...
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/tv-ratings-steve-harveys-family-677052
No one has yet mentioned his long affliction with Parkinson’s Disease. It is not an especially good idea to allow one’s brain to be used as a punchbag.
Boxing is a barbarous practice that no decent person should countenance or, by elevating its practitioners to heroic status, encourage the young to take up. At the professional level it is characterized by sleazy managers and promoters. If you pay to watch a boxing match you are no better than them: you are equally culpable in damaging the young men they exploit and subsequently discard.
Ali was no hero, but a rather stupid, if engaging, man who has now paid, in full, the price of a career in boxing.
How did this comment get up and my other comments didn't?
Sheesh, I am going to have to reformulate my pattern recognition of what riles your whim.
What, did you just wake up?
Go back to bed, Steve, it's 2am:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtjmQ6DwojsReplies: @Pat Hannagan
Where do you stand on the Parkinson vs Ali view of the world, Steve?
Educate people, as Parki said?
I was interested to see that Dave Allen rates more highly than Parkinson as an interviewer.
Note: Ali referred to “my American Black woman”.
Sounds a lot like Jim Morrison:
Should also note, my Dad and Mum visited this arvo and both wanted me to know that Ali was dead. Both were at pains to explain that they were nonplussed by the news relaying all this stuff about him being a moslom and Vietnam etc, whereas Dad thought the list of his title fights should have been top of the order.
With that being said, I'm sorry he became a radicalized black and a Muslim. I hope he repented in his final moments.
Farewell, Cassius.Replies: @Anonymous, @Ed, @PiltdownMan, @anon, @Santoculto, @Hippopotamusdrome
According to the NYT obit he failed the Army’s mental ability test which I’m assuming is NYT speak for IQ test. It was only after the minimum score was lowered that he became eligible to be drafted. So it’s quite possible his IQ was lower.
Mario Van Peebles delivered an exceptional and understated performance as Malcolm X in that film. I’ve always liked him and it’s a shame he’s spent his career in the B-movie ghetto. Good on you Mr. Mann.
BTW I rather enjoyed John McEnroe's antics when he played and saw the humor in what he did. Apparently, he did too based on the commercials he made after he retired. I was also a big McEnroe fan because of his artistry as a tennis player.Replies: @Dave Pinsen, @Percy Gryce
I saw him in person too when I was a kid, but it was at the tail end of his career. My town’s recreation department sponsored a bus trip up to his training camp in upstate New York (IIRC — maybe it was the Poconos). We didn’t get to see him spar. He looked kind of out of shape and asked who thought he’d win the fight (against Spinks or Holmes, I forget which), and we raised our hands.
Bottom scraping extended to officers then too. Infamous William Calley got into Officer Candidate School as a junior college dropout.
What have they got in mind?
http://images.maxpreps.com.edgesuite.net/site_images/editorial/article/c/b/6/cb6bbdcc-b437-454a-a236-5174d859c4d9/748db184-7021-e311-99e4-002655e6c126_original.jpgReplies: @ChaseBizzy, @Anonymous, @Daniel H, @Dave Shanken
Black men have ben procreating with white women at a fairly respectable rate in recent years. Jefferson for the love of HBD spergmasms please keep up.
Muhammad Ali's grandson Biaggio has a White father, so what does this have to do with Black men procreating with White women?
Ali: I am sure no intelligent White person watching this show, no intelligent White Man in his or her right White mind, want Black boys and Black girls marrying their White sons and daughters and in return introducing their grandchildren as half-brown kinky haired Black people.
Parkinson: I would! I would! I wouldn’t object to that.
(And to think the Anglos blame the Irish)
Steve Harvey makes George W. Bush seem like Stephen Hawking.
I can't believe someone that unintelligent hosts Family Feud. He has to be an affirmative action case. Steve Harvey is an extremely poor replacement for John O'Hurley.Replies: @ChaseBizzy, @Truth, @Hippopotamusdrome
” I can’t believe someone that unintelligent hosts Family Feud”.
When a 9 year old golf prodigy named Stephen Robert Hernandez asked Steve Harvey what 4 x 3 is, Steve couldn't answer.
Steve Harvey is no Ben Carson when it comes to being part of the intellectual talented Black tenth, that's for damn sure.
If Steve Harvey was a White man, I doubt he would have gotten this far in life with his current IQ. He is Hollywood's affirmative action.Replies: @Hibernian
So did he really say “thank god my granddaddy got on that boat!” or is that just a legend?
If he really said it, those eight words alone entitle him to an honorable niche in the dissident right hall of fame.
You caught that, too? Kind of the quintessential Jefferson comment.
http://www.alltech.com/blog/posts/muhammad-ali-irish-great-grandfatherReplies: @Pat Hannagan
“verbal obnoxiousness”?
The Man spoke great truths and put up in fist fights where others would shut up.
Ali was a great American.
“Black men have ben procreating with white women at a fairly respectable rate in recent years. Jefferson for the love of HBD spergmasms please keep up.”
Muhammad Ali’s grandson Biaggio has a White father, so what does this have to do with Black men procreating with White women?
Eh, Aussie Joe Bugner went 15 rounds with Cassius Clay and lost on points.
Clay is way overrated.
I’m biased because I sometimes see the ‘Boojsh’ walking around.
With that being said, I'm sorry he became a radicalized black and a Muslim. I hope he repented in his final moments.
Farewell, Cassius.Replies: @Anonymous, @Ed, @PiltdownMan, @anon, @Santoculto, @Hippopotamusdrome
You say this now that it is safe 🙂
What’s my name?
I was too young for the first and second Ali-Frazier but remember all the big ones after that. (I know he was supposedly better in the 60’s but it seems almost all his most famous fights were in the 70’s). I think he was without a doubt the biggest sports figure of that time.
He seems to have single-handedly helped extend the life of boxing as a sport middle class people followed closely. If I’m not mistaken, wasn’t boxing up until the mid 50’s more or less America’s number two spectator sport behind baseball? But though people didn’t really realize it at the time of Ali’s reign, it seems he and the attention he brought to the sport was its last gasp.
Sugar Ray Leonard, Duran, Marvin Hagler and to a lesser extent Larry Holmes were all still famous figures in my eyes in the 70’s. And Mike Tyson in the 80’s. But since then neither myself nor anyone I ever talk sports with really knows any boxers. Something I don’t think any prepubescent boy of the 70’s would ever have seen coming with how central Ali was to sports during that period.
The guy was semi-retarded when he started, got brain-damaged being punched in the head, and converted to a religion so irrational, stupid, and vicious that it makes the other religions look sensible, rational, and peaceful.
What's to talk about?
With that being said, I'm sorry he became a radicalized black and a Muslim. I hope he repented in his final moments.
Farewell, Cassius.Replies: @Anonymous, @Ed, @PiltdownMan, @anon, @Santoculto, @Hippopotamusdrome
Many whites who didn’t grow up with blacks conflate their loquaciousness with a capacity for Formal Reasoning, but spewing Jive or Rap is not equivalent to employing Aristotelian Logic or the rules of Algebra. In general, most higher hominids are adept at imitation and this can easily mislead the casual observer into overestimating their intelligence.
Don’t be embarrassed. We’ve all made this mistake at one time or another, it shows your basic good nature. But don’t be dangerously naive either. You could get hurt.
Here’s a link to some good advice that could keep you alive: http://thosewhocansee.blogspot.fr/2013/07/we-are-wild-animals-treat-us-as-such.html
A lot of sports broadcasting and commentary is now virtually unwatchable because they tend to have black commentators on every panel and broadcasting crew. It's embarrassing and cringe inducing to watch. Cable news is increasingly like this as well, although not as bad yet. They now tend to always include one or more black commentators.
Exactly. If you spend any time around black people, you will hear a lot of very amusing and entertaining trash talk. When I was younger and more naive, I knew a very witty black woman obviously much brighter than her black peers. I was amazed when she showed me the DFS paperwork relating to her having lost custody of her children. Her IQ was listed as 99. I couldn't believe it was so low. In retrospect, it seems spot on to me.Replies: @Jefferson
Is it me, or has the term “draft dodger” subtly changed since the Vietnam War era?
I thought draft dodgers was how people referred to those who fled overseas to Sweden or Canada.
People like Ali took their stand and their lumps for their refusal to serve. They did not flee.
I don’t recall their being referred to as “draft dodgers.” C.O.s, definitely, but not “draft dodgers.”
Anyway, I was not yet a teen at the start of the Vietnam War and my recollection may be wrong. Anybody remember?
It is always difficult to differentiate between public relations image manipulation and the real person. Whether Ali actually wrote his ‘poems’ himself, or someone else did it, we can never really know for sure.
Short version of his obituary:
He was a prominent media icon of the 1960’s and sadly his later life was blighted by Parkinson’s disease which could have been related to being punched in the head too many times long after he had lost the ability to float like a butterfly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1Y693cSF7EReplies: @Jefferson
“Ali schooling some British cuckold on interracial marriage:”
Yet one of Ali’s daughters got impregnated by a White man and he did not disown her.
I always enjoyed his 70’s album Muhammed Ali and His Gang vs Mr. Tooth Decay, featuring Frank Sinatra and Howard Cosell.
Boxing is a barbarous practice that no decent person should countenance or, by elevating its practitioners to heroic status, encourage the young to take up. At the professional level it is characterized by sleazy managers and promoters. If you pay to watch a boxing match you are no better than them: you are equally culpable in damaging the young men they exploit and subsequently discard.
Ali was no hero, but a rather stupid, if engaging, man who has now paid, in full, the price of a career in boxing.Replies: @Diversity Heretic
There is a difference between amateur boxing and professional prize fighting. Amateur boxing injuries to the head are rare. Neither activity interests me as a spectator, but there is a difference. In Mohamad Ali’s case, of course, there are only so many times that you can be hit in the head by the cement-hard fists of Joe Frazier before it takes a terrible toll.
Muhammad Ali strikes me as evidence that Jensen’s “Level 1” intelligence is better understood as heuristic-based or subconscious processing than as literal recall. Ali could be insightful, even creative, within a narrow band of topics and situations, but presumably had no ability to abstract outside that, the Level 2 intelligence that IQ tests evaluate. I also think there might be some tradeoffs between fast visual processing of 3D objects and fast 2D processing, that might have made him especially predisposed to illiteracy. The IQ test was correct as far as it went, but everything’s not IQ.
My wife saw him in Times Square once- the stretch limo pulls up, the window goes down, an enormous head with a big smile leans out, the crowd of people waiting to cross 42nd street goes suddenly wild.
Roger Ebert’s essay about watching Rocky 2 with Ali is quite good, and doesn’t have the hagiographic quality that things written more recently have: http://www.rogerebert.com/interviews/watching-rocky-ii-with-muhammad-ali
We don’t hear much about the Nation of Islam any more. Is it in terminal decline? If so, I suspect the importation of hundreds of thousands of actual Muslims to America rather diluted its romantic appeal to blacks.
Many believe the government paid Farrakhan to shut up. I agree with Talha, NOI will probably drift away after he dies. Farrakhan looks extremely young for his age.Replies: @Jefferson
His celebrity status helped popularize the so-called ‘Black Muslims’, a hate white people group who preached that whites were literally the devil. It’s believed this group spawned murder cults such as the Zebra murderers and others across the country. The NOI (Nation of Islam), currently headed by Farrakhan has been on public access television at various slots for years in the Chicago area. This would never have been tolerated were it to be a white nationalist type group but blacks always get a pass no matter. The nasty taunting of Frazier for being darker is a window to the inherent race obsessions of blacks, such as light vs dark feelings and other forms of hating everybody. Generally, the vast majority of blacks are united in their hatred of whitey and masochistic, simpering whites just suck it up and ask for more.
Ali in his prime lost to both Joe Frazier and Ken Norton. But I don’t think it’s fair to compare opponents from different eras. Sport evolves. Ali was relatively a small lightweight at 6’3″. No way Ali could he have competed with the monsters like Lennox Lewis or Vitali Klitschko. But it’s silly to make such comparison. Kind of like the people who say Vince Lombardi could be a top coach in today’s NFL because of how sophisticated the game has gotten.
That said, Vince Lombardi would be a successful coach in today's NFL, just like Bill Belichick would have been in the 50s.Replies: @Honesthughgrant, @Triumph104, @Dave Pinsen, @Hapalong Cassidy, @5371
Ali even reached the lonely field of the Classics. From book 23 of Robert Fagles’ Iliad, before a boxing match were the prize is a mule:
If he really said it, those eight words alone entitle him to an honorable niche in the dissident right hall of fame.Replies: @PiltdownMan
So did he really say “thank god my granddaddy got on that boat!”
I’m pretty sure he said it after the Rumble in the Jungle fight, and recall hearing it, but cannot find a clip (yet).
He did say, according to the New York Times
“… a Russian reporter asked him about racial prejudice, Clay ordered him to “tell your readers we got qualified people working on that, and I’m not worried about the outcome.”
“To me, the U.S.A. is still the best country in the world, counting yours,” he added. “It may be hard to get something to eat sometimes, but anyhow I ain’t fighting alligators and living in a mud hut.””
He had a mind that was unafraid, right or wrong, and his will followed that mind. That was a basis of his claim to greatness. It was rare then, and rarer still today. In the mealy-mouthed terminology of our times, the man was a walking trigger warning.
Rest in peace.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzAylBftstQ
https://youtube.com/watch?v=HqiWFLsgVi4
I don't think he was only bright in a verbal sense, although I'm not accusing him of, say, mathematical genius, either.Replies: @Truth, @I, Libertine, @I, Libertine
OK, well three of you now have posted the same 3 minute post in a thread discussing the life of the most charismatic, most famous man of the 20th century.
And you wonder why people disparage your IQs.
I doubt that you are even capable of understanding why so many readers of this blog think you're an idiot,
I'd avoid disparaging anyone's IQ were I you.
Not your average house call: Irish plumber who thought he was being pranked by his friends meets MUHAMMAD ALI after knocking on his door – and stays to celebrate The Greatest’s birthday
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2543336/Irish-plumber-meets-MUHAMMAD-ALI-knocking-door-Louisville.html#ixzz4Ac9NNHFg
Steve Harvey makes George W. Bush seem like Stephen Hawking.
I can't believe someone that unintelligent hosts Family Feud. He has to be an affirmative action case. Steve Harvey is an extremely poor replacement for John O'Hurley.Replies: @ChaseBizzy, @Truth, @Hippopotamusdrome
“I can’t believe someone that unintelligent hosts Family Feud. He has to be an affirmative action case. Steve Harvey is an extremely poor replacement for John O’Hurley.”
Not if you’re producing the show, Old Sport…
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/tv-ratings-steve-harveys-family-677052
http://images.maxpreps.com.edgesuite.net/site_images/editorial/article/c/b/6/cb6bbdcc-b437-454a-a236-5174d859c4d9/748db184-7021-e311-99e4-002655e6c126_original.jpgReplies: @ChaseBizzy, @Anonymous, @Daniel H, @Dave Shanken
Ali’s grandfather was white (Irish). That’s where the name Clay came from.
That’s what it said in Thomas Hauser’s biography.
People who are surprised by Ali’s low IQ in light of his gift of gab never went to public school with black children. 78 is only about half a standard deviation under the black average. Ali’s combination of low intelligence and big outgoing personality is not uncommon.
Black kids in elementary school can be bright, witty and charmingly entertaining. Then comes puberty and they get sullen and distant. Hormones change everything.Replies: @Harry Baldwin
Ali is Kylo Ren/ Darth VaderReplies: @Desiderius
The person whose sprit in the face of adversity most matches Ali today ……..
…… Donald Trump.
Godspeed to both.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=HqiWFLsgVi4
I don't think he was only bright in a verbal sense, although I'm not accusing him of, say, mathematical genius, either.Replies: @Truth, @I, Libertine, @I, Libertine
That sounds like intelligent talk? Not to me.
I’ve remarked on this site before that the only reason he got in trouble with the draft board was because, owning to an understandable drop in enlistments in 1967, the Army drastically lowered the minimum score on the mental test that he had previously been adjudged to have flunked abjectly. Yeah, maybe he threw that fight, but this video isn’t contradictory evidence.
BTW, would you guess from this rant that his maternal great-grandfather was Irish? Boy, that must have stung him!
“I don’t want to kill people, just beat them up”
Regardless of what one may think of Ali-and I have mixed feelings- anyone who ever saw him interviewed one-on-one or hold forth before a live audience in an amphitheater (as I did, once) could only marvel at his facility with words and his sense of humor. And yet this guy’s IQ was measured at 78. Cognitive dissonance on stilts.
Not to brag but I share a common ancestor with Ali around 1670. That ancestor was the grandson of an Italian Jew, and probably where Ali got his famous wit and intellect.
I recall Muhammad Ali’s appearance on the “Alan Burke Show” in the late 1960s. Burke was one of the original confrontational hosts and liked to needle his guests. He said, “Ali, I did some boxing in college–used to be pretty good at it, too. Maybe sometime I’ll get in the ring with you and give you a few pointers.”
Ali said, “Alan, you’d sooner go to Viet Nam with a BB gun.”
Ali and Joe Frazier did joint appearances on TV shows such as Dick Cavett’s before their bouts, with Ali constantly insulting Frazier. Ali was talking about how when he worked out on the heavy bag, he’d imagine it was Frazier as he was punching it.
Joe responded, “Yeah, but the bag ain’t got no arms.”
That got a big laugh from the studio audience.
Regarding at Joe with a look of pity and disgust, Ali said, “Joe, there you go again, showing your stupidity and ignorance. ‘The bag ain’t got no arms.’ Of course the bag ain’t got no arms, Joe! Everyone knows a bag ain’t got no arms! What kind of ignorant fool would think he has to point that out?”
With Ali’s delivery, this riposte got a bigger laugh than Joe’s putdown. I felt a little bad for Frazier, whose comportment was more gentlemanly than Ali’s.
The birds Ali mentioned were different species. Parkinson should have pointed that out. Also that some Chinese might develop an appreciation for Puerto Rican music, and vice versa.
from the Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/in-trilogy-with-muhammad-ali-the-words-hurt-joe-frazier-most/2011/11/08/gIQAgfUc3M_story.htmlWe remember Ali calling Frazier “ugly,” an “Uncle Tom” and, especially, a “gorilla.” And even those of us too young to have stayed up to learn the result of a 15-round prizefight in the 1970s recall how black people laughed and laughed at this.“I’m cringing in my car right now just thinking about it,” says Janks Morton Jr. He visited Frazier in Philadelphia in the early 1970s with his dad, Janks Morton Sr., who trained Sugar Ray Leonard and was close friends with Frazier’s sparring partner, heavyweight champ-to-be Ken Norton. “I can still see [Ali] sitting next to Howard Cosell punching that [rubber] black gorilla, saying, ‘It’s going to be a thrilla in Manila when I kill that gorilla.’ ”Replies: @Talha, @Kevin O'Keeffe, @Anonymous
How does that give you the idea that he hated anyone? He liked to mock Frazier for being dark-skinned, so he “hated” Black people generally? That’s stupid.
Ali was punchy long before Parkinson’s set in. Back in the 80s and 90s Howard Stern would have Frazier into the studio for interviews and would joke between them how dopey Ali was, how dazed in later days Ali was and snicker about how Frazier beat Ali stupid. Ali was brain dead and underwater for decades.
Ali kicked off everything that is idiotic about Black athletes today and rare indeed is the Black sports star who, in the end zone, acts as if he’s been there before, as they say. Ali was also the beginning of the era of Black-Man-Does-No-Wrong-That-We-Print-Or-Portray media. Ali was the beginning of the tolerance of Black-onWhite racism and the beginning of the shuttling aside of a man’s moral and intellectual shortfalls because of his Black skin, especially if he was a celebrity. Little known factlet, 4 wives, by various accounts from seven to a dozen children that we know of, and dozens or hundreds of groupies, a particularly egregious record, even for Blacks in the 60s and 70s. From Ali onward, are you Black? Promiscuous? Unsupported children? No problem, just a Black thing. You wouldn’t understand. It all started down the hill with Ali.
That got a big laugh from the studio audience.Regarding at Joe with a look of pity and disgust, Ali said, "Joe, there you go again, showing your stupidity and ignorance. 'The bag ain't got no arms.' Of course the bag ain't got no arms, Joe! Everyone knows a bag ain't got no arms! What kind of ignorant fool would think he has to point that out?"With Ali's delivery, this riposte got a bigger laugh than Joe's putdown. I felt a little bad for Frazier, whose comportment was more gentlemanly than Ali's.Replies: @Jim Christian
Yeah, but Frazier got the last laugh at the end..
Look, when Ali held the stage, when he was at his peak of fame and influence on young Blacks, he was a publicly enthusiastic member of the Nation of Islam, a virulently racist religious sect. I have a 1965 copy of “Muhammed Speaks,” the Black Muslim newspaper. It is a real eye-opener in its hatred of all Whites, who are referred to as “blue-eyed devils” and caricatured as Nazis. For example, read Ali’s Playboy interview if you want to know how he felt about Blacks and Whites intermarrying.
I really don’t care how nice he got in his old age. He never denounced the Black Muslims or tried to repair the damage he did to Black-White relations.
A brilliant fighter in his day, but a wholly baleful influence. The world is a measurably worse place because he lived.
Yet at this blog, everyone went to hell due to Kennedy and the Irish.
Note: "A philosophy of despair" is identifying with one's own people. Thus spake the Anglo.Replies: @Pat Hannagan, @Hibernian
WASPS who have a real problem with Irish Catholics tend to be at either the far left or the far right end of the spectrum, politically and/or theologically, IMHO.
We have done enough for American emancipation.
For the Irish Brigade at Fredericksburg:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXCh9OhDiCIReplies: @Pat Hannagan, @Jefferson, @Brutusale
I think in that era standardized tests truly were culturally biased to some, perhaps a high, degree. I remember the one that I, as a young kid 12 years younger than Ali, took in that era, in 3rd grade, I think. I remember it as very vocabulary dependent, and I remember it well enough to remember 2 of the questions .
I’m not familiar with “Family Feud,” but I think a degree of intelligence is required to host even a dumb show. It requires keeping a producer happy who has to keep advertisers happy.
‘Ali was, in the words of famed sportswriter Frank Deford, “the original trash talker.” He liberated athletes in most sports (other than golf) from the code of the British gentleman.’
No. He liberated blacks from the oppressive chains of good sportsmanship. White athletes, for the most part, still display good sportsmanship no matter the sport.
If Ali had a low IQ then this seems to clearly demonstrate in an HBD sense blacks folk’s have something else that compensates to some extent. A white person with the same IQ could not riff like that. Rappers can be pretty clever with the phrases too. Mike Tyson seems to be kind of an idiot yet insightful at the same time. Low IQ whites are just dull. What is going on?
No, I think the entire American polity makes excuses for itself and blames the Irish for its failures.
We have done enough for American emancipation.
For the Irish Brigade at Fredericksburg:
Lyin Ted Kennedy was not Calabrese that's for damn sure.
Tyson not even a top 10 all time heavyweight
Not the same as beating someone in prime but who did Tyson really beat? An old Larry Holmes?
With that being said, I'm sorry he became a radicalized black and a Muslim. I hope he repented in his final moments.
Farewell, Cassius.Replies: @Anonymous, @Ed, @PiltdownMan, @anon, @Santoculto, @Hippopotamusdrome
Many iq fetishists like to say
”some people ‘look very’ intelligent when you hear them, talking with them, but this is not translated in good iq scores. So they are not ‘really’ smart”
inverted order of factors.
And there is also ”factual comprehension/understanding”, when you perceive, internalize, understand and even may develop ABOUT ((facts))
A lot of ”higher iq” ones no have a good factual comprehension.
And same for Smoking Joe, which is why Joe didn’t come out for the 15th round of their ultimate fight, the Thrilla in Manila.
Always had mixed feelings about Ali, but Joe Frazier in retrospect seems a much more exemplary man. RIP, both of them.Replies: @Desiderius, @Anonymous
Coach Yank Durham trained Frazier to move in when Ali threw a jab , so Frazier basically walked though Ali's punches. Of middling height and short armed, Frazier had every physical disadvantage against Ali, who in the second fight was allowed to constantly lasso Frazier around the neck and go into clinches where he collapsed on little Joe like a blancmange, Durham protested and produced a compilation those incidents to illustrate.
In the third bout between the two (Manilla) the ref just pulled Ali's arm away. Frazier was winning, but as with Zaire, the heat was extreme and worked in Ali's favor. Afterward he lay naked on a table because he couldn't bear ever a sheet on his pummeled ribs.
We have done enough for American emancipation.
For the Irish Brigade at Fredericksburg:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXCh9OhDiCIReplies: @Pat Hannagan, @Jefferson, @Brutusale
Note most Yanks don’t even recall Fredericksburg.
10 biggest bouts
And you wonder why people disparage your IQs.Replies: @Jus' Sayin'..., @Buffalo Joe, @celt darnell, @BB753
I can think of quite a few others who might better fit the description.
I doubt that you are even capable of understanding why so many readers of this blog think you’re an idiot,
Ali kicked off everything that is idiotic about Black athletes today and rare indeed is the Black sports star who, in the end zone, acts as if he's been there before, as they say. Ali was also the beginning of the era of Black-Man-Does-No-Wrong-That-We-Print-Or-Portray media. Ali was the beginning of the tolerance of Black-onWhite racism and the beginning of the shuttling aside of a man's moral and intellectual shortfalls because of his Black skin, especially if he was a celebrity. Little known factlet, 4 wives, by various accounts from seven to a dozen children that we know of, and dozens or hundreds of groupies, a particularly egregious record, even for Blacks in the 60s and 70s. From Ali onward, are you Black? Promiscuous? Unsupported children? No problem, just a Black thing. You wouldn't understand. It all started down the hill with Ali.Replies: @Jus' Sayin'...
You got me thinking. Cassius Clay may not have been entirely responsible for the trends you point out but he was certainly in the avant-garde. You’ve made a good point and one that should be taken into consideration in any overall evaluation of Clay’s impact on the world.
I really don't care how nice he got in his old age. He never denounced the Black Muslims or tried to repair the damage he did to Black-White relations.Replies: @officious intermeddler, @Triumph104
The Playboy interview was published 52 years ago, in 1964, when Ali was 22 years old. When he got older, he got wiser.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=HqiWFLsgVi4
I don't think he was only bright in a verbal sense, although I'm not accusing him of, say, mathematical genius, either.Replies: @Truth, @I, Libertine, @I, Libertine
@All the commenters who say Ali must have been smarter than 78 because he responds to questions so quickly, ergo mental tests must be culturally biased: a couple of points.
You’re confusing glibness with intelligence. You really believe that guy sounds like Bertrand Russell?
A few decades ago, do-gooder-type psychologists came up with the idea that poor performance by NAMs on IQ tests was a function of cultural bias. So they stopped using questions like those from the old WAIS or Stanford- Binet like “who wrote Faust?” and added questions like “which shape comes next”? Guess what happened.
Don't be embarrassed. We've all made this mistake at one time or another, it shows your basic good nature. But don't be dangerously naive either. You could get hurt.
Here's a link to some good advice that could keep you alive: http://thosewhocansee.blogspot.fr/2013/07/we-are-wild-animals-treat-us-as-such.htmlReplies: @Anonymous, @Kylie, @Hippopotamusdrome
Right, blacks seem to be more talkative than most people, and they have a tendency to string together words and phrases they pick up from the environment into utterances that don’t make much sense semantically or logically. The words and phrases seem to be put together for the purposes of sound and rhythm.
A lot of sports broadcasting and commentary is now virtually unwatchable because they tend to have black commentators on every panel and broadcasting crew. It’s embarrassing and cringe inducing to watch. Cable news is increasingly like this as well, although not as bad yet. They now tend to always include one or more black commentators.
Is it racist if you think it’s not a co-incidence that one of the families on Family Feud (Steve Harvey Era) is ALWAYS black?
Muhammad Ali was a superb athlete and a consistently principled man with the courage of his convictions. If you think IQ is the measure of a man Ali proved you wrong. If you are dedicated to hating black people and Muslims you will have to hate Ali, a better man than you.
By the way:
Ali had to get Frazier to fight him. Frazier was not obliged to do so. Do you think Ali might just have been taunting Frazier to get him in the ring? Or would it be easier to stupidly believe that Ali was racist? To Frazier’s everlasting credit he gave Ali the match.
If he knew he could avoid the draft, maybe he flubbed the test intentionally.
78 puts him in the mildly retarded category.
He had better writers than Bob Hope, that’s for sure.
“Here I predict Mr. Liston’s dismemberment/
I’ll hit him so hard, he’ll wonder where November went”
is awfully glib for 22 (with a 78 IQ, yet).
I wouldn’t have been willing to take a single blow by someone like Ernie Shavers for even a million dollars. And he got a few in on Ali.
I believe it is and will probably go the way of the Dodo once Minister Farakhan passes away – can’t think of anything else keeping it together, especially in this day and age. But they sell some great bean pies – get them while you can.
Black guys liked Ali because he was cocky, not servile. That fit into the whole “Black is beautiful” thing, and I respect that. White guys liked Ali because he was an easy way to get a Civil Rights endorphin release and because Ali was against Vietnam (as if the hundreds of thousands of guys who served were “for” Vietnam.) I would have had higher regard for Ali if he had served in some capacity, even as a CO, the way Richard Dreyfuss did. I still know a lot of guys in their ’60’s who used subterfuge to not serve, it wasn’t right.
Always had mixed feelings about Ali, but Joe Frazier in retrospect seems a much more exemplary man. RIP, both of them.
That’s what I’m talking about! (#50 above)
Black kids in elementary school can be bright, witty and charmingly entertaining. Then comes puberty and they get sullen and distant. Hormones change everything.
There are several famous American blacks near the end of this movie sharing similar sentiments:
No, the achievement gap is even wider than the IQ gap would predict, but part of that is the white overvaluing of abstraction and commensurate undervaluing of the traditionally masculine qualities exemplified by Ali. IQ measures the former and misses the latter.
There isn't any need for low IQ thugs. Really what would MA be if he weren't a boxer who got lucky? A nobody or even a career criminal. His options were very limited because of his IQ. He wasn't even fit for the military.
And I know masculine men, they weren't Ali who was part showman. Most are quiet and confident men you don't want to f**k with.
People get the stupid notion of what masculine is from the TV and a bunch of roided up black professional athletes that are mostly crybabies when they get a owie. They aren't it, not by a long shot.
Look at the white professional soldiers in Special Ops. Tough as nails and quite smart, but generally not the swaggering d-nozzles you find in pro-sports. Or the guys who work in heavy industry or do tower work where a mistake could kill them. Those guys got cajones.Replies: @anon, @Desiderius, @Mark2, @Triumph104, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Santoculto
Always had mixed feelings about Ali, but Joe Frazier in retrospect seems a much more exemplary man. RIP, both of them.Replies: @Desiderius, @Anonymous
Many whites liked that even more, as we found ourselves becoming more and more servile (in the face of our women, for instance).
BTW I rather enjoyed John McEnroe's antics when he played and saw the humor in what he did. Apparently, he did too based on the commercials he made after he retired. I was also a big McEnroe fan because of his artistry as a tennis player.Replies: @Dave Pinsen, @Percy Gryce
McEnroe’s antics led my mentor Digby Baltzell to write a book–his last–about the decline of civility in men’s tennis:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1412851807
In aftermath of his ko of George Foreman in stifling heat plus lights (Foreman had trained in an air conditioning and was unable to cope ) and in the run up to the fight with Ernie Shavers, Ali had been saying “ropes are a wonderful thing”, as if he had invented a new way of defeating big punchers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgjbXCVNpl4&t=8m31s
The clip starts as Ali is caught with a right. Shavers’s renowned power with a single punch was behind it and he sent Ali tottering across the ring out on his feet . Ali was lying on the ropes with nothing left, but he could move his hand and he motioned Shavers in. Shavers, showing a fatal lack of nerve, hesitated and the moment passed.
He seems to have single-handedly helped extend the life of boxing as a sport middle class people followed closely. If I'm not mistaken, wasn't boxing up until the mid 50's more or less America's number two spectator sport behind baseball? But though people didn't really realize it at the time of Ali's reign, it seems he and the attention he brought to the sport was its last gasp.
Sugar Ray Leonard, Duran, Marvin Hagler and to a lesser extent Larry Holmes were all still famous figures in my eyes in the 70's. And Mike Tyson in the 80's. But since then neither myself nor anyone I ever talk sports with really knows any boxers. Something I don't think any prepubescent boy of the 70's would ever have seen coming with how central Ali was to sports during that period.Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @RadicalCenter
Anon, You mention some great fighters but neglect to mention my choice for greatest of all time; Thomas “Hitman” Hearns , who held titles at several different weight classes.
A tall physical freak who dominated smaller men in the lower weights was exposed against guys over whom he didn't have the reach advantage.
Is undefeated Rocky Marciano chopped liver?Replies: @Buffalo Joe
That 3-way rivalry in the early to mid 80's between Hagler, Hearns, and Leonard produced some outstanding fights.
That Hagler/Hearns fight where Hearns broke his hand (on Hagler's head IIRC) produced the most exciting round of boxing (the first round) that I've ever seen. It was like watching a street fight between two guys that disliked each other greatly but that knew what they were doing.
I pulled that fight up on Youtube and showed it to my 14 year-old MMA fan son that thinks boxing is boring. His response afterwards was "whoa..."
I'm from the DC area so always liked and pulled for our local guy Sugar Ray, but Hagler and Hearns were both immense talents.Replies: @Brutusale
And you wonder why people disparage your IQs.Replies: @Jus' Sayin'..., @Buffalo Joe, @celt darnell, @BB753
Light!…..” most charismatic, most famous man of the 20th century.” Really? Better than let’s say Pope John Paul.
www.amazon.com/dp/1412851807Replies: @tbraton
Well, tennis was certainly more entertaining to watch when characters like Ilie Nastase, Jimmy Connors and John McEnroe were performing. These days, despite being a lifelong tennis fan and one who played the game for many years, I find it difficult to watch a match. The play is excellent but a bit boring, at least to me.
from the Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/in-trilogy-with-muhammad-ali-the-words-hurt-joe-frazier-most/2011/11/08/gIQAgfUc3M_story.htmlWe remember Ali calling Frazier “ugly,” an “Uncle Tom” and, especially, a “gorilla.” And even those of us too young to have stayed up to learn the result of a 15-round prizefight in the 1970s recall how black people laughed and laughed at this.“I’m cringing in my car right now just thinking about it,” says Janks Morton Jr. He visited Frazier in Philadelphia in the early 1970s with his dad, Janks Morton Sr., who trained Sugar Ray Leonard and was close friends with Frazier’s sparring partner, heavyweight champ-to-be Ken Norton. “I can still see [Ali] sitting next to Howard Cosell punching that [rubber] black gorilla, saying, ‘It’s going to be a thrilla in Manila when I kill that gorilla.’ ”Replies: @Talha, @Kevin O'Keeffe, @Anonymous
Kill the gorilla? And he thought he had to fight to do that? What about the more civilized options, like slipping a black kid into the ring?
We have done enough for American emancipation.
For the Irish Brigade at Fredericksburg:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXCh9OhDiCIReplies: @Pat Hannagan, @Jefferson, @Brutusale
“No, I think the entire American polity makes excuses for itself and blames the Irish for its failures.”
Lyin Ted Kennedy was not Calabrese that’s for damn sure.
Don't be embarrassed. We've all made this mistake at one time or another, it shows your basic good nature. But don't be dangerously naive either. You could get hurt.
Here's a link to some good advice that could keep you alive: http://thosewhocansee.blogspot.fr/2013/07/we-are-wild-animals-treat-us-as-such.htmlReplies: @Anonymous, @Kylie, @Hippopotamusdrome
“Many whites who didn’t grow up with blacks conflate their loquaciousness with a capacity for Formal Reasoning, but spewing Jive or Rap is not equivalent to employing Aristotelian Logic or the rules of Algebra. In general, most higher hominids are adept at imitation and this can easily mislead the casual observer into overestimating their intelligence.”
Exactly. If you spend any time around black people, you will hear a lot of very amusing and entertaining trash talk. When I was younger and more naive, I knew a very witty black woman obviously much brighter than her black peers. I was amazed when she showed me the DFS paperwork relating to her having lost custody of her children. Her IQ was listed as 99. I couldn’t believe it was so low. In retrospect, it seems spot on to me.
A lot of European countries have an average IQ of 99, so she is quite smart by Negro standards. She is certainly smarter than Steve Harvey.
Well, I was lucky to see him in his prime. I also paid to watch many of his subsequent fights after I got of school and started working and making money. But I reached a point where it wasn’t worth it to shell out a lot of money to watch a great fighter with deteriorating skills. I seem to recall that it was his “rope-a-dope” fight against George Forman that was my last. I missed all of his last fights. I had a similar experience when I paid a good sum for tickets to see Frank Sinatra in the 70’s giving a concert at the then home of the Washington Bullets in suburban Maryland. Apart from the fact that the venue was much too large (seating 17,000 to 20,000), Sinatra, whom I consider to be the greatest singer of popular songs in the 20th century, had clearly lost it due to age. You don’t appreciate a person’s greatness when you see him in decline.
One thing about Ali that most people don’t remember is that he was Cassius Clay before he became Muhammed Ali. As Clay, he won the gold medal as a light heavyweight fighting in the 1960 Rome Olympics, and his personality was so engaging and friendly then that he was voted overwhelmingly as the most popular athlete at those Olympics. Pretty good for a mere 18-year old. Makes you wonder how he would have turned out had not the Nation of Islam gotten its hands on him.
The Playboy interview which contains his feelings about interracial marriage was in 1975…it is available online.
“Not to brag but I share a common ancestor with Ali around 1670. That ancestor was the grandson of an Italian Jew, and probably where Ali got his famous wit and intellect.”
Yeah, right. Most of us can bet our signature traits came from a single ancestor 10 generations back.
Or at least he would bite his ear off.
I confess I don’t get the adulation of Ali.
Here’s what Joe Sobran had to say about Muhammad Ali in his April, 2000 newsletter:
” If anyone was a child of the media age, I was. My
knowledge of the world came from movies, television,
journalism, and, yes, books, though books were the least of
it. I had almost zero experience of life outside Michigan.
Canada and Ohio were nearby, but I rarely visited either. Even
a drive to rusty old Toledo seemed like an adventure. Yet
through the media I acquired an enormous amount of superficial
knowledge of the outside world.
The superficiality of my knowledge didn’t stop me from
having passionate feelings about the things and people I
“knew” — national politics, Hitchcock films, sports figures.
Among the latter was Muhammad Ali. I’d never come close to
meeting him in person, but I hated him like a personal enemy.
I watched all his fights, hoping to see him pulverized by a
right cross; it never happened, never came close to happening,
until in 1971 Joe Frazier decked him with a left hook in the
final round of their first fight.
During the 1960’s Ali seemed a subversive figure, a Black
Muslim who ‘didn’t have nothing’ against them Vietcongs and
challenged the whole system I thought of as both legitimate
and threatened by the anarchy of my generation. To me he was
still Cassius Clay, which he called his “slave name,” while
“Muhammad Ali” struck me as an absurd affectation: was he
trying to pass for an Arab? I was resolutely out of step with
everything the media were promoting as hip and progressive
(synonyms then, and now too). Protesting the Vietnam War,
favoring “social justice,” and admiring Ali all went together
in the ensemble of prescribed attitudes for my generation; I
was against all of them. I fed on the media, my pipelines to
reality, yet I resented their attempts to mold me.
Looking back, I wished I’d allowed myself to savor Ali’s
peerless skill as a boxer. Today he seems one of the more
wholesome figures of the time. The New Left may have idolized
him, but as a devout Muslim he was morally conservative (if
not always morally upright); and he was both right and
courageous to resist the draft. It’s embarrassing to recall
not just how much I loathed him, but that I felt strongly
about him at all. As far as I was concerned, he might have
been a fictional character. I was like those silly women who
write love letters to soap opera heroes.
Of course Ali — and other media celebrities — have the
same effect on millions of other people who are just as
provincial as I was. It didn’t help that Ali’s chief media
booster was the abrasive Howard Cosell, of whom Jimmy Cannon
wrote the caustic last word: “His real name is Howard Cohen
and he wears a toupee and he says he tells it like it is.”
Remember the days of telling it like it is?
For me there’s a touching irony in the fact that Ali now
lives in retirement on a farm in Michigan, mumbling and
trembling as a result of countless punches to the head. And of
course we’re all sentimental about him now. His old
braggadoccio, so infuriating at the time, is now remembered as
a jolly game he played with us — except by Frazier, who still
hates his guts for the merciless ridicule Ali heaped on him.
And in Frazier’s defense, it must have been no fun at all to
be called “ugly,” a “gorilla,” and a traitor to black people.
What made it so painful was that it worked: Ali succeeded in
turning most black fans against Frazier. “The Greatest”
wielded a very sharp needle.
SPORTS ILLUSTRATED recently named Ali one of the great
sportsmen of the twentieth century, but in fact, nobody did
more to destroy the old standards of sportsmanship. Joking or
not, his boasts and insults set us on the way to the surliness
and trash-talking that are now routine not only in boxing but
in other sports. There are still modest, gentlemanly, even
chivalrous athletes, but they seem like throwbacks to the days
of Floyd Patterson — another of the fighters Ali humiliated,
dubbing him “the rabbit” before whipping him cruelly in the
ring.
I like Ali so much better now than I did when he was in
his prime that I somehow remember him in those days with an
admiration I certainly didn’t feel at the time. Even then I
must have known that I was lucky to be seeing such a
completely masterful athlete — a once-in-a-lifetime performer
on the Babe Ruth scale. And his zanily brave personality was
part of his greatness. He was surely the greatest genius ever
to score 78 on an IQ test.
They both were. All the warriors in the Iliad are braggarts. Neither Hector nor anyone else did any bragging where Achilles was concerned, however, because everyone knew Achilles was The Greatest.
Steve Harvey is the same guy who originally could not correctly pronounce the country Philippines. When he first said it sounded like Philippians the bible verse. He originally could not spell Colombia either, until it was pointed out to him that it is not spelled the same the university known as Columbia.
When a 9 year old golf prodigy named Stephen Robert Hernandez asked Steve Harvey what 4 x 3 is, Steve couldn’t answer.
Steve Harvey is no Ben Carson when it comes to being part of the intellectual talented Black tenth, that’s for damn sure.
If Steve Harvey was a White man, I doubt he would have gotten this far in life with his current IQ. He is Hollywood’s affirmative action.
At bottom, his relationship to whites seems to have been anger in the abstract, friendship in person. Just like James Brown, he was a good friend of Elvis.
Another similarity between Ali and Brown was how they both managed to balance the new BlackMan persona with an almost corny downhome demeanor.
Exactly. If you spend any time around black people, you will hear a lot of very amusing and entertaining trash talk. When I was younger and more naive, I knew a very witty black woman obviously much brighter than her black peers. I was amazed when she showed me the DFS paperwork relating to her having lost custody of her children. Her IQ was listed as 99. I couldn't believe it was so low. In retrospect, it seems spot on to me.Replies: @Jefferson
“I was amazed when she showed me the DFS paperwork relating to her having lost custody of her children. Her IQ was listed as 99.”
A lot of European countries have an average IQ of 99, so she is quite smart by Negro standards. She is certainly smarter than Steve Harvey.
Frazier was an extreme body puncher inasmuch he would ignore an opening to the head to batter the body, almost always with his left because his right shoulder had problems.
Coach Yank Durham trained Frazier to move in when Ali threw a jab , so Frazier basically walked though Ali’s punches. Of middling height and short armed, Frazier had every physical disadvantage against Ali, who in the second fight was allowed to constantly lasso Frazier around the neck and go into clinches where he collapsed on little Joe like a blancmange, Durham protested and produced a compilation those incidents to illustrate.
In the third bout between the two (Manilla) the ref just pulled Ali’s arm away. Frazier was winning, but as with Zaire, the heat was extreme and worked in Ali’s favor. Afterward he lay naked on a table because he couldn’t bear ever a sheet on his pummeled ribs.
He obviously had women, but one or two boxing people have hinted over the years that Ali was homosexual, I don’t know of any evidence but there are a lot who have said it.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sucker-Punch-Dazed-Killed-Kings/dp/159555033X Check out the cover
And yet George Foreman seems to be fine. It would be interesting to know if there is some physical difference in him that allowed him to absorb all those head shots.
When/how did he become so sanctified/beatified? I remember in the 70s a lot of people thought he was obnoxious with the trash talking and basically a joke.
Now, it’s like some sort of code that we are supposed to revere him (all over the world even, recall all the fuss with the torch lighting). I never really got the memo or noticed the gradual change in opinion on him. Just curious how that change happened (or maybe I was out of it in the 70s?)
I was a bit surprised, but that's what he said. I believe Ali endorsed Reagan in 1984.Replies: @pepperinmono
Shows how bad things have gotten.
http://images.maxpreps.com.edgesuite.net/site_images/editorial/article/c/b/6/cb6bbdcc-b437-454a-a236-5174d859c4d9/748db184-7021-e311-99e4-002655e6c126_original.jpgReplies: @ChaseBizzy, @Anonymous, @Daniel H, @Dave Shanken
Ali’s grandson’s father is Italian American. Ali’s grandson is/was a standout athlete at Bishop Gorman high school in Las Vegas. I don’t know if he graduated yet, but most likely he will play college football somewhere. His brother is also a standout athlete.
Nope, a modern high tech society needs men who are smart enough to build and maintain the machines that keep our society afloat and people alive.
There isn’t any need for low IQ thugs. Really what would MA be if he weren’t a boxer who got lucky? A nobody or even a career criminal. His options were very limited because of his IQ. He wasn’t even fit for the military.
And I know masculine men, they weren’t Ali who was part showman. Most are quiet and confident men you don’t want to f**k with.
People get the stupid notion of what masculine is from the TV and a bunch of roided up black professional athletes that are mostly crybabies when they get a owie. They aren’t it, not by a long shot.
Look at the white professional soldiers in Special Ops. Tough as nails and quite smart, but generally not the swaggering d-nozzles you find in pro-sports. Or the guys who work in heavy industry or do tower work where a mistake could kill them. Those guys got cajones.
And speaking of "roided up black professional athletes", notice how different Ali's physique is from today's monster, muscle-bulging boxers? Ali's physique was more like one of today's elite swimmers or water polo players. That's why it's fruitless to compare champions from today with yesterday (pre roids).
In 1970 when asked why he didn't become a Muslim like his son, Cassius Clay Sr. replied, "I'm nondenominational. My religion is my talent, that which supports me."Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
depend what society you're talking about
''high technological society''
indeed, some people are very ''autistic'', they don't give a shit for extremely important philosophical questions...
What lack in the high technological societies is wisdom, what is putting you in a extremely fragile situation.
Most of the ''highly technological society'' of the future based on fiction science movies and literature look gray, without any vestige of natural environment, read= nature, and much more a ''world of the work/worker/ domesticated and self-delusional enslaved'' than a world of the full-beings, a inhumane, efficient and nonsense society.
No. He liberated blacks from the oppressive chains of good sportsmanship. White athletes, for the most part, still display good sportsmanship no matter the sport.Replies: @EriK
I mostly agree, but it still amuses me that Larry Bird was one of the biggest trash talkers ever.
Calley was loathed by both his superior officers and the men under his command. His immediate superior referred to him as Lieutenant Shithead in front of his charges. It does confound the mind that a man like Calley ever got within a thousand miles of an officer’s commission. Calley wasn’t fit to be a corporal, let alone a lieutenant.
I was surprised to read much later that Joe came out of that fight in much better shape than Ali. Ali was seriously beat up.
Don't be embarrassed. We've all made this mistake at one time or another, it shows your basic good nature. But don't be dangerously naive either. You could get hurt.
Here's a link to some good advice that could keep you alive: http://thosewhocansee.blogspot.fr/2013/07/we-are-wild-animals-treat-us-as-such.htmlReplies: @Anonymous, @Kylie, @Hippopotamusdrome
Not me. I think they’re retarded.
Ali is a symbol of what we value in this society and how sick we are. A profoundly stupid, arrogant guy who rejected Christianity and attacked the “white slave masters” who made his career possible. A barely human liberal wet dream.
Also, Tyson would have knocked him out (in Tyson’s prime).
Steve Harvey makes George W. Bush seem like Stephen Hawking.
I can't believe someone that unintelligent hosts Family Feud. He has to be an affirmative action case. Steve Harvey is an extremely poor replacement for John O'Hurley.Replies: @ChaseBizzy, @Truth, @Hippopotamusdrome
Steve Harvey Doesn’t Want To Host Family Feud Anymore
http://images.maxpreps.com.edgesuite.net/site_images/editorial/article/c/b/6/cb6bbdcc-b437-454a-a236-5174d859c4d9/748db184-7021-e311-99e4-002655e6c126_original.jpgReplies: @ChaseBizzy, @Anonymous, @Daniel H, @Dave Shanken
The grandson looks a bit like Adam Sandler.
" If anyone was a child of the media age, I was. My
knowledge of the world came from movies, television,
journalism, and, yes, books, though books were the least of
it. I had almost zero experience of life outside Michigan.
Canada and Ohio were nearby, but I rarely visited either. Even
a drive to rusty old Toledo seemed like an adventure. Yet
through the media I acquired an enormous amount of superficial
knowledge of the outside world.
The superficiality of my knowledge didn't stop me from
having passionate feelings about the things and people I
"knew" -- national politics, Hitchcock films, sports figures.
Among the latter was Muhammad Ali. I'd never come close to
meeting him in person, but I hated him like a personal enemy.
I watched all his fights, hoping to see him pulverized by a
right cross; it never happened, never came close to happening,
until in 1971 Joe Frazier decked him with a left hook in the
final round of their first fight.
During the 1960's Ali seemed a subversive figure, a Black
Muslim who 'didn't have nothing' against them Vietcongs and
challenged the whole system I thought of as both legitimate
and threatened by the anarchy of my generation. To me he was
still Cassius Clay, which he called his "slave name," while
"Muhammad Ali" struck me as an absurd affectation: was he
trying to pass for an Arab? I was resolutely out of step with
everything the media were promoting as hip and progressive
(synonyms then, and now too). Protesting the Vietnam War,
favoring "social justice," and admiring Ali all went together
in the ensemble of prescribed attitudes for my generation; I
was against all of them. I fed on the media, my pipelines to
reality, yet I resented their attempts to mold me.
Looking back, I wished I'd allowed myself to savor Ali's
peerless skill as a boxer. Today he seems one of the more
wholesome figures of the time. The New Left may have idolized
him, but as a devout Muslim he was morally conservative (if
not always morally upright); and he was both right and
courageous to resist the draft. It's embarrassing to recall
not just how much I loathed him, but that I felt strongly
about him at all. As far as I was concerned, he might have
been a fictional character. I was like those silly women who
write love letters to soap opera heroes.
Of course Ali -- and other media celebrities -- have the
same effect on millions of other people who are just as
provincial as I was. It didn't help that Ali's chief media
booster was the abrasive Howard Cosell, of whom Jimmy Cannon
wrote the caustic last word: "His real name is Howard Cohen
and he wears a toupee and he says he tells it like it is."
Remember the days of telling it like it is?
For me there's a touching irony in the fact that Ali now
lives in retirement on a farm in Michigan, mumbling and
trembling as a result of countless punches to the head. And of
course we're all sentimental about him now. His old
braggadoccio, so infuriating at the time, is now remembered as
a jolly game he played with us -- except by Frazier, who still
hates his guts for the merciless ridicule Ali heaped on him.
And in Frazier's defense, it must have been no fun at all to
be called "ugly," a "gorilla," and a traitor to black people.
What made it so painful was that it worked: Ali succeeded in
turning most black fans against Frazier. "The Greatest"
wielded a very sharp needle.
SPORTS ILLUSTRATED recently named Ali one of the great
sportsmen of the twentieth century, but in fact, nobody did
more to destroy the old standards of sportsmanship. Joking or
not, his boasts and insults set us on the way to the surliness
and trash-talking that are now routine not only in boxing but
in other sports. There are still modest, gentlemanly, even
chivalrous athletes, but they seem like throwbacks to the days
of Floyd Patterson -- another of the fighters Ali humiliated,
dubbing him "the rabbit" before whipping him cruelly in the
ring.
I like Ali so much better now than I did when he was in
his prime that I somehow remember him in those days with an
admiration I certainly didn't feel at the time. Even then I
must have known that I was lucky to be seeing such a
completely masterful athlete -- a once-in-a-lifetime performer
on the Babe Ruth scale. And his zanily brave personality was
part of his greatness. He was surely the greatest genius ever
to score 78 on an IQ test.Replies: @Dave Shanken
Your point about Ali’s ring talk is very relevant. Ali was a great boxer, but his behavior reduced the sport of boxing to the farce of professional wrestling. And pro wrestling is an activity all serious sports must stay away from. Today boxing is a minor pro sport; Ali along with other talented boxers i.e. Tyson and greedy promoters have major responsibility for this sad state.
Ali would have beaten Tyson handily. Tyson’s hard-hitting, brawling style might have presented a challenge for Ali the same way that Frazier’s style did. But Tyson lacked Frazier’s stamina and character. His only hope would have been to overwhelm and knock out Ali early, and prime Ali was too elusive and fleet-footed to let that happen. Tyson would have wilted in the later rounds. I think Ali wins by decision or even late round knockout.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51090bGcoR8
Back in the '70's it seemed as if the Big 3 (Foreman, Frazier, and Ali) would be exchanging the title for years, due to the fact that each man's style checkmated the other. Frazier had no chance against Foreman, but could give Ali everything he could handle (and more).Replies: @Anonymous, @William Badwhite
In his next fight after Shavers, Ali lost a decision to Leon Spinks. Probably not a coincidence.
He is currently a junior.
And now they want to draft women.
What have they got in mind?
In every field of athletic endeavor where excellence can be compared objectively, either by time or distance, today’s athlete is superior to that of yesteryear. Johnny Weismuller’s 1928 Olympic gold medal 100-meter freestyle time wouldn’t even qualify him for the women’s team in 2012.
That said, Vince Lombardi would be a successful coach in today’s NFL, just like Bill Belichick would have been in the 50s.
https://youtu.be/8COaMKbNrX0?t=267Replies: @Brutusale
The overhead press used to be an Olympic weightlifting event until it was scrapped. Rip includes a video clip there of a Belgian cleaning and then pressing 500lbs over his head and wonders if anyone alive today can do it.
Of all the Starting Strength coaches, I think there's one who can press more than 300lbs overhead.Replies: @2Mintzin1, @Brutusale
With that being said, I'm sorry he became a radicalized black and a Muslim. I hope he repented in his final moments.
Farewell, Cassius.Replies: @Anonymous, @Ed, @PiltdownMan, @anon, @Santoculto, @Hippopotamusdrome
Could someone with an IQ of only 78 invent aphorism like this, I think not:
I wouldn’t be surprized if it turnes out that he was the also the one who came up with “I’m rubber, your glue, it bounces off me and sticks to you!”.
That’s kind of the opposite of what happened in the first Ali-Frazier fight. The victorious Frazier was totally spent after the fight and even spent awhile in the hospital. He would go on to fight only three times in the next two years, and in the third fight get famously destroyed by George Foreman.
Now, it's like some sort of code that we are supposed to revere him (all over the world even, recall all the fuss with the torch lighting). I never really got the memo or noticed the gradual change in opinion on him. Just curious how that change happened (or maybe I was out of it in the 70s?)Replies: @David In TN, @dcite
After Ali won the title again in 1974, it became “In” to hero-worship him. I recall in 1976, Ali was on CBS Face the Nation, of all things. A reporter asked him who he favored in the Presidential race. Ali said he liked Gerald Ford, who had invited him to the White House, which Ali liked very much.
I was a bit surprised, but that’s what he said. I believe Ali endorsed Reagan in 1984.
We have done enough for American emancipation.
For the Irish Brigade at Fredericksburg:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXCh9OhDiCIReplies: @Pat Hannagan, @Jefferson, @Brutusale
I look at the good and bad of the Irish in America pretty much as I see those same things with Ali: a push, as they say in Vegas.
Not the same as beating someone in prime but who did Tyson really beat? An old Larry Holmes?Replies: @Brutusale
Like Marciano, Tyson couldn’t fight guys who weren’t there. Not every great cat gets his great rat.
And I still remember his line to Ray Leonard after Marvelous Marvin Hagler knocked him senseless: “Ray, I knows I gots a punch and you knows I gots a punch, but Brother Marvin, he don’t knows I gots a punch!”
A tall physical freak who dominated smaller men in the lower weights was exposed against guys over whom he didn’t have the reach advantage.
I’m pretty sure the name Cassius Clay falls under the heading of common knowledge.
Yeah. Hitman was a force. But if my recollections of my 70’s consciousness are accurate, he seemed more of mysterious unseen legend to me than the others who I have distinct memories of seeing fight on broadcast TV multiple times (or hearing about the next day after a pay-per-view fight). In fact, I only became aware of the famous epic Hagler-Hearns 1st round in recent years and I was a fairly big boxing fan back then. But maybe that was something unique to me and others were more aware of him back then. ……..Also, Aaron Pryor was a beast at times back then, but he grew up in the same region I did so maybe I was more aware of him than others would have been.
Maybe it was the short-term rush to cash in via big pay-per-view payouts that led to boxing losing hold of much of the attention of the average sports fan post 1980 or so. I remember seeing lots of good fights on broadcast TV in the 70’s on forums like Wide World of Sports. But that was mostly gone by 1980. (Or maybe it was the dawning awareness of how destructive the sport actually is that turned people away from it. But that sure hasn’t seemed to hurt the appeal of NFL football as a spectator sport in recent years. So my guess is that the move away from broadcast TV, which the NFL has wisely mostly avoided throughout its run as the premier US spectator sport, was the main culprit for boxing’s fall.)
Ken Norton Jr. played in three Super Bowls.
Ken Norton III will probably do something elseReplies: @SteveRogers42
Way too many here going on about IQ here, not just Ali’s.
Isn’t it just possible that he didn’t even try his best on the test? Here was his incentive?
“Anon, You mention some great fighters but neglect to mention my choice for greatest of all time; Thomas “Hitman” Hearns , who held titles at several different weight classes.”
Is undefeated Rocky Marciano chopped liver?
Ken Norton Sr. was 1-1 against Ali in the ring.
Ken Norton Jr. played in three Super Bowls.
Ken Norton III will probably do something else
He was probably the best pure athlete to ever fight professionally. The Illinois high school authorities had to institute the "Ken Norton Rule" limiting the number of events that a track athlete could enter in a single meet because young Kenny would routinely win 7 or 8 events in an afternoon.
No reasonable person who has seen or read Ali’s interviews could think he had a below average level of intelligence. Any low IQ score he got is a demonstration of the silliness of IQ test fetishism, not of his low intelligence.
As far as mentioning my home town boy Thomas Hearns, near greatness at best. He lost in two great battles that would have put him into the highest echelon but not to be so. A bit stronger chin and learning to clinch would have helped him immeasurably. Now if you are going to talk about low IQ, Tommy might be your man.
Did you read the whole message?
MQ, IQ fetishism is a defining characteristic of the Right today, at least on the sites I frequent.
As far as mentioning my home town boy Thomas Hearns, near greatness at best. He lost in two great battles that would have put him into the highest echelon but not to be so. A bit stronger chin and learning to clinch would have helped him immeasurably. Now if you are going to talk about low IQ, Tommy might be your man.
Well, Sugar Ray Robinson was a pretty good boxer who won titles at the Welterweight level and the Middleweight level and almost won at the Lightheavyweight level, losing to the heat of a very hot summer day. Robinson is considered by many to be the greatest boxer who ever lived. I saw him as a child on TV, and he threw the greatest punch I ever saw when he knocked out Gene Fulmer with a powerful left hook. He was as graceful in the ring as any boxer who ever lived, and he packed a powerful punch.
There isn't any need for low IQ thugs. Really what would MA be if he weren't a boxer who got lucky? A nobody or even a career criminal. His options were very limited because of his IQ. He wasn't even fit for the military.
And I know masculine men, they weren't Ali who was part showman. Most are quiet and confident men you don't want to f**k with.
People get the stupid notion of what masculine is from the TV and a bunch of roided up black professional athletes that are mostly crybabies when they get a owie. They aren't it, not by a long shot.
Look at the white professional soldiers in Special Ops. Tough as nails and quite smart, but generally not the swaggering d-nozzles you find in pro-sports. Or the guys who work in heavy industry or do tower work where a mistake could kill them. Those guys got cajones.Replies: @anon, @Desiderius, @Mark2, @Triumph104, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Santoculto
Using boxing as a way to gauge the “manliness” of a man overvalues his capacity to take repeated blows to the one organ that differentiates a human from the lower animals. Sorta like judging a man’s intelligence by counting the number of blows it takes him, using his head as a battering ram, to demolish a brick wall.
And speaking of “roided up black professional athletes”, notice how different Ali’s physique is from today’s monster, muscle-bulging boxers? Ali’s physique was more like one of today’s elite swimmers or water polo players. That’s why it’s fruitless to compare champions from today with yesterday (pre roids).
Like what you see?Replies: @Anonymous, @No_0ne
Look up “Zebra Murders,” in particular.
There isn't any need for low IQ thugs. Really what would MA be if he weren't a boxer who got lucky? A nobody or even a career criminal. His options were very limited because of his IQ. He wasn't even fit for the military.
And I know masculine men, they weren't Ali who was part showman. Most are quiet and confident men you don't want to f**k with.
People get the stupid notion of what masculine is from the TV and a bunch of roided up black professional athletes that are mostly crybabies when they get a owie. They aren't it, not by a long shot.
Look at the white professional soldiers in Special Ops. Tough as nails and quite smart, but generally not the swaggering d-nozzles you find in pro-sports. Or the guys who work in heavy industry or do tower work where a mistake could kill them. Those guys got cajones.Replies: @anon, @Desiderius, @Mark2, @Triumph104, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Santoculto
If the former can’t bring themselves to defend themselves and those creations from the latter, what good is all that IQ?
I can believe that Ali had a subnormal IQ. He had a series of rhymes that he would repeat, and even when he was doing his schtick about punching the Joe Frazier gorilla toy, you could see that he was stumbling over his lines.
I think anyone with an IQ of, say, 115, can do just about anything, except maybe physics, and the thing holding such a person back from that would be the inability to literally get the work done on time. I mean, the purpose of life is not to torture yourself.
There are a lot more important things to have in life than a high IQ. Determination, perseverence, honor, a code, self-sacrifice, etc. etc. I'll bet that Indian guy who killed those two people before killing himself had a high IQ, too.Replies: @Former Darfur, @Anonymous, @Hippopotamusdrome
After enough of the pacifist high-IQ individuals and their pacifist genes are removed from the gene pool, there will be more who are prepared to defend themselves.
You might also think about (((those))) who are exploiting the peculiarities of the psyches of the high-IQ. Eventually, the exploitable will diminish. Even now, Holocaustianity has little hold over the younger generation.
Isn't it just possible that he didn't even try his best on the test? Here was his incentive?Replies: @Anonymous
Ali made a lot of dumb decisions. Not minor decisions, but major ones that had a major negative impact on his life. Like getting mixed up with the Black Muslims and never developing decent defensive and blocking technique and relying on dodging punches, which for all the impressive highlights meant that he accumulated a lot of hard punches to the head. Later in his career as his legs slowed he relied on absorbing punches to tire out his opponent rather than proper defensive technique e.g. the rope a dope against Foreman. Fighting Larry Holmes in 1980 and getting pummeled was another dumb decision. By the mid-80s he was showing signs of significant brain damage and of course he was diagnosed with Parkinson’s and started losing his faculties.
http://www.amerika.org/politics/muhammad-ali-on-race-patriotism
There isn't any need for low IQ thugs. Really what would MA be if he weren't a boxer who got lucky? A nobody or even a career criminal. His options were very limited because of his IQ. He wasn't even fit for the military.
And I know masculine men, they weren't Ali who was part showman. Most are quiet and confident men you don't want to f**k with.
People get the stupid notion of what masculine is from the TV and a bunch of roided up black professional athletes that are mostly crybabies when they get a owie. They aren't it, not by a long shot.
Look at the white professional soldiers in Special Ops. Tough as nails and quite smart, but generally not the swaggering d-nozzles you find in pro-sports. Or the guys who work in heavy industry or do tower work where a mistake could kill them. Those guys got cajones.Replies: @anon, @Desiderius, @Mark2, @Triumph104, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Santoculto
Yet, the present and the future belongs to low IQ thugs. Non-compulsory contraception and women’s emancipation ensured it.
HBO took over showing the fights in the late 80’s and early 90’s. I remember seeing a lot of Tyson fights on HBO with Larry Merchant and Jim Lampley.
The thing that bothered me about Ali was him saying he didnt want to go off to war because it was against his religion. I doubt any muslim could get away with saying that nowadays.
I was under the assumption that Ali was now practicing traditional Islam but his burial won't be until next Friday and traditional Muslims, like Jews, are supposed to be buried as soon a possible after death. Ali could have been buried today, I doubt there was an autopsy.Replies: @Wanderer
Blacks like Ali have a history of denouncing interracial marriages and then chasing the descendants of such marriages for mates. They are not called on it by the media.
Muhammad Ali has White grandchildren
https://destee.com/threads/muhammad-ali-has-white-grandchildren.82241/
I think the IQ fetish on the alt.right is weird, and I say that as someone who’s pretty smart. Just today, iSteve cross referenced Charles Murray, who was speculating on the IQ of journalists, determining that x were 130+, y were 140+, and one was 150+. I realize a guy who wrote a book about IQ would be sort of obsessed with it, but, really.
I can believe that Ali had a subnormal IQ. He had a series of rhymes that he would repeat, and even when he was doing his schtick about punching the Joe Frazier gorilla toy, you could see that he was stumbling over his lines.
I think anyone with an IQ of, say, 115, can do just about anything, except maybe physics, and the thing holding such a person back from that would be the inability to literally get the work done on time. I mean, the purpose of life is not to torture yourself.
There are a lot more important things to have in life than a high IQ. Determination, perseverence, honor, a code, self-sacrifice, etc. etc. I’ll bet that Indian guy who killed those two people before killing himself had a high IQ, too.
Still: IQ is a necessary, but not sufficient, property to succeed at the things needed to build a civilization, to advance science and technology, to cope with changes in the situations we encounter in life, and to compete with other groups in search of scarce goods.
The 92 IQ person who will back you up in a fight is someone you want to know, but if he forms a very substantial proportion of the population, you are screwed. You have a low human capital population.
By the same token, if you have a population that is on average 15 points higher IQ than a much larger one, it does not necessarily imply they are fully superior. For one, they might have a high incidence of a myriad of genetic diseases and also tend to be neurotic, and generally ugly. In a manner of speaking, they also have low human capital.
It does mean that they have,in general, some specific advantages in some situations , and if they have learned how to maximize these advantages, the larger population could be in trouble.
Also, IQ and criminality are correlated.Replies: @PiltdownMan
Think of it as evolution in action.
After enough of the pacifist high-IQ individuals and their pacifist genes are removed from the gene pool, there will be more who are prepared to defend themselves.
You might also think about (((those))) who are exploiting the peculiarities of the psyches of the high-IQ. Eventually, the exploitable will diminish. Even now, Holocaustianity has little hold over the younger generation.
I thought I read back in the day that the SCOTUS ruling in his favor in the Vietnam draft case was based on the principle that it was your own beliefs, not your religion’s beliefs, that made you a legitimate conscientious objector. Today in one of the Ali obituaries I read that it was based on undue influence by the DOJ on his draft board. I’m Catholic and the first issue I mentioned above applies to us, though not me personally since I’ve never been particularly pacifistic.
Is undefeated Rocky Marciano chopped liver?Replies: @Buffalo Joe
Jefferson, Yes Rocky Marciano, Rocky Graziano and Willie Pep were all great boxers, in their time. They also have a place in Italian American pride, but I never saw any of them fight. Pep reportedly had over 200 fights, both club and main event, an amazing number if true.
Gotta disagree. Joe Frazier had the style and the physique that enabled him to get inside on Ali and land big shots. Same goes for Tyson, except that he was heavier, stronger, quicker, and more technically proficient than Joe. Because of his speed and head movement, the Mike Tyson of the Cus D’Amato era was actually very hard to hit.
Back in the ’70’s it seemed as if the Big 3 (Foreman, Frazier, and Ali) would be exchanging the title for years, due to the fact that each man’s style checkmated the other. Frazier had no chance against Foreman, but could give Ali everything he could handle (and more).
Very good p0int. Tyson was a very good fighter when young.
He then became a noticeably worse fighter after D'Amato passed away. His defense in particular became non-existent. The thoroughly forgettable Buster Douglas hit him at will in that upset.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7Ka40KovVo&feature=share
Muhammad Ali has White grandchildren
https://destee.com/threads/muhammad-ali-has-white-grandchildren.82241/Replies: @Hibernian
It’s obvious that Ali was racially mixed himself, and mention was made above of his Irish grandfather or great-grandfather, depending on the source. His definition of a black woman or man was that based on the one-drop rule, and in the interview with the British journalist Parkinson, he seemed to me to emphasize cultural incompatibility more than genetics.
Ken Norton Jr. played in three Super Bowls.
Ken Norton III will probably do something elseReplies: @SteveRogers42
Steve, the much-underrated Ken Norton was 1-2 vs. Ali.
He was probably the best pure athlete to ever fight professionally. The Illinois high school authorities had to institute the “Ken Norton Rule” limiting the number of events that a track athlete could enter in a single meet because young Kenny would routinely win 7 or 8 events in an afternoon.
The 70s had some of the all-time greats, like Carlos Monzon, Jose Napoles, Alexis Arguello, Wilfredo Benitez and Roberto Duran, as well as the aforementioned Hagler, Hearns and Leonard. Big fights seemed to be on TV constantly. And it was FREE TV.
Now, it's like some sort of code that we are supposed to revere him (all over the world even, recall all the fuss with the torch lighting). I never really got the memo or noticed the gradual change in opinion on him. Just curious how that change happened (or maybe I was out of it in the 70s?)Replies: @David In TN, @dcite
Hey, compared with most of the current black celebrities we’re supposed to revere, he’s ok.
Shows how bad things have gotten.
Always had mixed feelings about Ali, but Joe Frazier in retrospect seems a much more exemplary man. RIP, both of them.Replies: @Desiderius, @Anonymous
Ali wasn’t that popular among whites. Whites preferred black boxers like Floyd Patterson, Sonny Liston, and Joe Frazier. Frazier was sponsored in his first bout with Ali by a group of white Republican businessmen from Philadelphia. The Frazier-Ali fights and rivalry became a sort of proxy for political allegiance. Republicans and conservative whites favored Frazier, while liberals tended to like Ali. Despite Ali’s grandstanding, Frazier was actually much more of an authentic black American and closer to the black experience. He grew up on a farm in South Carolina to sharecropper parents, and was based during his pro career and until the end of his life in a gym in inner-city Philadelphia. He wasn’t articulate, but he was polite and good-natured, and had the affable manner that used to be associated with blacks.
The Nation of Islam shares a space ship theology with Scientology. So they joined forces a few years ago and NOI members now get audited. Although they still get jail house converts, NOI limited itself by only going after black members. Traditional Islam is getting a lot of Hispanic jailhouse converts along with black ones..
Many believe the government paid Farrakhan to shut up. I agree with Talha, NOI will probably drift away after he dies. Farrakhan looks extremely young for his age.
There are rumors that Louis Farrakhan's father was White, a Portuguese Jew to be exact.
I really don't care how nice he got in his old age. He never denounced the Black Muslims or tried to repair the damage he did to Black-White relations.Replies: @officious intermeddler, @Triumph104
One of his daughters is married to a white man. Their older son is a well-known high school athlete and Ali visited the family in Las Vegas to watch his grandson play football.
With an I.Q. of 78 he could not be called “very bright” by any stretch of the imagination. This just goes to show how being loud and having a forceful or “winning” personality can mask a lack of natural intelligence.
That said, Vince Lombardi would be a successful coach in today's NFL, just like Bill Belichick would have been in the 50s.Replies: @Honesthughgrant, @Triumph104, @Dave Pinsen, @Hapalong Cassidy, @5371
“Johnny Weismuller’s 1928 Olympic gold medal 100-meter freestyle time wouldn’t even qualify him for the women’s team in 2012.”
We don’t know what Johnny would have done in the 100 meters with modern training methods. His entire training routine consisted of swimming 1 hour in the afternoon and then having a few brewskis.
He didn’t even lift weights.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51090bGcoR8
Back in the '70's it seemed as if the Big 3 (Foreman, Frazier, and Ali) would be exchanging the title for years, due to the fact that each man's style checkmated the other. Frazier had no chance against Foreman, but could give Ali everything he could handle (and more).Replies: @Anonymous, @William Badwhite
Frazier was a classic brawler, a real bruiser and slugger. The way he’d bob and weave to get right into Ali and pummel his ribs and kidneys was very impressive. He would just completely tenderize Ali’s sides and organs.
Age 83.
So, what’s new? Black don’t crack.
Not sure what the underlying dermatological explanation is.
“Yet, Early notes, “He was intuitive, glib, richly gregarious, and intensely creative, like an artist.” Ali’s vivid personality changed how athletes behave.”
Uh, Babe Ruth was described exactly in this way by his contemporaries. If anything, Ruth paved the way for all 20th century athlete superstars that followed.
Also, if Ali was so brave, then why didn’t he serve his country a la Joe Louis? A point that decorated WW2 Navy veteran Bob Feller made some yrs ago.
And a 78 IQ is just ahead of imbecile and moron. Even Yogi Berra and the Babe didn’t score that low. And Yogi served his country in WW2 (at D-Day, which ironically the aniversary is on Monday)
Many believe the government paid Farrakhan to shut up. I agree with Talha, NOI will probably drift away after he dies. Farrakhan looks extremely young for his age.Replies: @Jefferson
“Many believe the government paid Farrakhan to shut up. I agree with Talha, NOI will probably drift away after he dies. Farrakhan looks extremely young for his age.”
There are rumors that Louis Farrakhan’s father was White, a Portuguese Jew to be exact.
There isn't any need for low IQ thugs. Really what would MA be if he weren't a boxer who got lucky? A nobody or even a career criminal. His options were very limited because of his IQ. He wasn't even fit for the military.
And I know masculine men, they weren't Ali who was part showman. Most are quiet and confident men you don't want to f**k with.
People get the stupid notion of what masculine is from the TV and a bunch of roided up black professional athletes that are mostly crybabies when they get a owie. They aren't it, not by a long shot.
Look at the white professional soldiers in Special Ops. Tough as nails and quite smart, but generally not the swaggering d-nozzles you find in pro-sports. Or the guys who work in heavy industry or do tower work where a mistake could kill them. Those guys got cajones.Replies: @anon, @Desiderius, @Mark2, @Triumph104, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Santoculto
Ali’s father was a painter – murals, billboards, signs, and artistic. He raised his sons in a middle-class home and took both of them with him on jobs and taught them how to paint.
In 1970 when asked why he didn’t become a Muslim like his son, Cassius Clay Sr. replied, “I’m nondenominational. My religion is my talent, that which supports me.”
Not just "anyone" can paint well enough to earn a living, 'specially one with an IQ just ahead of imbecile and moron.
In point of fact, that one AR inmate whom Governor Bill Clinton in early '92 had executed, he had an IQ of around 78 (74-78, somewhere in there). So one possibility if boxing didn't work out would be: fighting in real life. As Ali knew how to fight in the ring perhaps he could've applied his physical talents in real life, out on the streets.Replies: @anon
Though born a few years after his retirement and never terribly interested in pro boxing — by the technical standards of which, he clearly dominated his era and would have excelled to even greater heights except for losing those years from the middle of his career — I’m trying to take the devil’s advocate line for this overrated clown but just not feeling it. In archival footage I’ve watched he invariably presented as very stupid. I don’t mind that he called Joe Frazier names (a nice reminder of a less pussified time) but on reflection his insults weren’t so witty. They wouldn’t work in another context or setting. Basically, they sort of rhymed, so give him credit for the memorability minimum. That Sports Illustrated/St. Sebastian cover seemed overripe, unclever, egotistical and a bit gay, though that’s true of many things which impress Baby Boomers.
There was nothing befitting classical Greek sculpture about Ali’s real social achievement: boosting the anti-war/anti-military movement of the 60s and participating in the death of the draft. I feel this is the subtext of the fulsome tributes, the true contribution for which he is rewarded with automatic rote bootlicking by the Boomers. Drained of its generational emotional resonance this torch is carried on by the Reason Magazine/Greenwald types barely old enough to remember the Berlin Wall (who actually fete not only the conscientious objectors but deserters and Bradley Manning-style “dissidents” too). Apart from that there’s no explanation for Ali’s media success other than the industry’s control by louche perverts who, despite their billions, feel like angry ghetto blacks on the inside and really enjoy looking upon photographs of a muscular shirtless one when they can. Sailer’s obituary sounds like the chick in “I Am Curious Yellow” making goo-goo eyes at a flat, flickering electronic likeness of a lunkhead hype artist, “a blank screen on which to project their views” as one sage of political Blackness recently put it.
A representative pathetic ESPN Radio program I just heard began with a story of Ali driving in Michigan then stopping to help some stranded students whose car battery had died. In the tremulous voice of the sportswriter-narrator this ho-hum and frankly idiotic scene was rendered like Jesus washing the lepers’ feet. Yeah, what a mensch! Two months ago I jumpstarted someone’s battery outside the supermarket, didn’t realize it made me a humanitarian icon. Speculation as to whether The Ali Brand persisted as more or less “hateful” grabs me as totally frivolous in a post-honor trial-lawyer-administered society where whiney special pleading is elevated to the pinnacle of “activism” and TV fakers fret about hired goons getting concussions the same way they pretended to sympathize with cigarette smokers in the 70s and 80s. Muhammad Ali was, from outward appearance, a boorish clod who was too dull to be worth denouncing. He finally, at last, died. So what, big deal, etc.
He was a member of the Nation of Islam which shouldn’t be confused with traditional Islam. I would guess that the tenants of NOI changed as often as the wind back in those days.
I was under the assumption that Ali was now practicing traditional Islam but his burial won’t be until next Friday and traditional Muslims, like Jews, are supposed to be buried as soon a possible after death. Ali could have been buried today, I doubt there was an autopsy.
Oh, so they ran a boarding house then. Was it easy to get a room at the NOI?
That said, Vince Lombardi would be a successful coach in today's NFL, just like Bill Belichick would have been in the 50s.Replies: @Honesthughgrant, @Triumph104, @Dave Pinsen, @Hapalong Cassidy, @5371
Today’s athlete isn’t superior to yesterday’s. What has changed is technology.
I was a shot putter in high school. I can't imagine just hopping forward in the circle and tossing the shot, the way it was until Parry O'Brien came along in 1951 and developed the reverse slide step, which allowed him to break the world record about 20 times and win two Olympic gold medals. That technique was the standard until Brian Oldfield came along in the early 70s with the "Oldfield spin", which is still the standard today. Oldfield's records weren't recognized because he went pro after his only Olympic appearance. Parry O'Brien himself had a problem with Oldfield's technique, but it was viewed by most as sour grapes from the old fart whose records were relegated to the dustbin of history. Does Oldfield's spin, or Dick Fosbury's flop, which revolutionized high jumping, or Bruce Sutter's dominance with his split-finger fastball, make their performances less valid for all that they brought new techniques to old sporting events? Is it Michael Phelps' fault that Weismuller had a more cavalier attitude toward training?
I can vouch for the equipment in cycling. My girlfriend does a 160-mile MS charity ride every year, and I do training rides with her (just did a 15 miler this morning). An athletic 128-pound woman on a carbon fiber Trek Silque road bike has a definite advantage over over a 285-pound weightlifter on a steel-frame Giant hybrid! Less than 10 miles, though, my leg strength gives me an advantage. Over 10 miles, she dusts my ass. Professional cycling, anticipating whining from the old-timers, decreed minimum bike weights, and if you look closely at the bikes in the Tour, some have little lead bars added near the water bottle cage.
Eddie Merckx was the Babe Ruth of road cycling, arguably the greatest cyclist ever, but his career was only 15 years before Greg LeMond and 20 before Lance Armstrong. Even LeMond was riding a steel bike, and the last metal-frame bike to win the Tour was only 18 years ago. I recall seeing a story on TV about the Nike suit that Armstrong wore shaving off a half a second per mile. How much is carbon fiber an advantage over aluminum or steel? Enough to make up the 3 MPH difference between Armstrong's and Merckx's best average speeds in the Tour?
And I know for sure that today's marathoners are far superior to those in the past. Since the first Boston Marathon was held in 1897, the world record has gone from 2:55 to 2:02.Replies: @cthulhu
In 1970 when asked why he didn't become a Muslim like his son, Cassius Clay Sr. replied, "I'm nondenominational. My religion is my talent, that which supports me."Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
Assuming that Cassius Sr. had a higher IQ, that means that Cassius Jr. came from a middle class upbringing but still came out with an IQ of 78. So the question remains, what would Ali have done for a living if he weren’t a boxer who got lucky.
Not just “anyone” can paint well enough to earn a living, ‘specially one with an IQ just ahead of imbecile and moron.
In point of fact, that one AR inmate whom Governor Bill Clinton in early ’92 had executed, he had an IQ of around 78 (74-78, somewhere in there). So one possibility if boxing didn’t work out would be: fighting in real life. As Ali knew how to fight in the ring perhaps he could’ve applied his physical talents in real life, out on the streets.
M.A.'s character is more important than his IQ. He fought hard and suffered as a Conscientious Objector when Vietnam war was not yet unpopular. He could have easily skirted like the higher I.Q. people like Clinton, Gingrich, Bushes, Trump, Sanders etc.,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeFMyrWlZ68Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Buffalo Joe, @Hibernian
There isn't any need for low IQ thugs. Really what would MA be if he weren't a boxer who got lucky? A nobody or even a career criminal. His options were very limited because of his IQ. He wasn't even fit for the military.
And I know masculine men, they weren't Ali who was part showman. Most are quiet and confident men you don't want to f**k with.
People get the stupid notion of what masculine is from the TV and a bunch of roided up black professional athletes that are mostly crybabies when they get a owie. They aren't it, not by a long shot.
Look at the white professional soldiers in Special Ops. Tough as nails and quite smart, but generally not the swaggering d-nozzles you find in pro-sports. Or the guys who work in heavy industry or do tower work where a mistake could kill them. Those guys got cajones.Replies: @anon, @Desiderius, @Mark2, @Triumph104, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Santoculto
Exactly. That’s why Muhammad Ali isn’t a hero. He served himself real well, but what did he actually do for his country? Chris Kyle, however, IS a hero. Let’s remember to keep things in the proper perspective (especially since we’ve just had Memorial Day). In many ways, Ali wasn’t half the man that Kyle was. One dealt with a game inside a play ring, the other dealt with real life.
I don’t suppose that Google will have a google doodle dedicated to Chris Kyle in the future? I wonder why not?
I can believe that Ali had a subnormal IQ. He had a series of rhymes that he would repeat, and even when he was doing his schtick about punching the Joe Frazier gorilla toy, you could see that he was stumbling over his lines.
I think anyone with an IQ of, say, 115, can do just about anything, except maybe physics, and the thing holding such a person back from that would be the inability to literally get the work done on time. I mean, the purpose of life is not to torture yourself.
There are a lot more important things to have in life than a high IQ. Determination, perseverence, honor, a code, self-sacrifice, etc. etc. I'll bet that Indian guy who killed those two people before killing himself had a high IQ, too.Replies: @Former Darfur, @Anonymous, @Hippopotamusdrome
IQ is not everything. Many 92 IQ people are decent human beings you would want on your side in a barfight or building a new nation. Many 130 IQ people you want nothing to do with.
Still: IQ is a necessary, but not sufficient, property to succeed at the things needed to build a civilization, to advance science and technology, to cope with changes in the situations we encounter in life, and to compete with other groups in search of scarce goods.
The 92 IQ person who will back you up in a fight is someone you want to know, but if he forms a very substantial proportion of the population, you are screwed. You have a low human capital population.
By the same token, if you have a population that is on average 15 points higher IQ than a much larger one, it does not necessarily imply they are fully superior. For one, they might have a high incidence of a myriad of genetic diseases and also tend to be neurotic, and generally ugly. In a manner of speaking, they also have low human capital.
It does mean that they have,in general, some specific advantages in some situations , and if they have learned how to maximize these advantages, the larger population could be in trouble.
And you wonder why people disparage your IQs.Replies: @Jus' Sayin'..., @Buffalo Joe, @celt darnell, @BB753
“The most famous man of the 20th century?”
I’d avoid disparaging anyone’s IQ were I you.
I can believe that Ali had a subnormal IQ. He had a series of rhymes that he would repeat, and even when he was doing his schtick about punching the Joe Frazier gorilla toy, you could see that he was stumbling over his lines.
I think anyone with an IQ of, say, 115, can do just about anything, except maybe physics, and the thing holding such a person back from that would be the inability to literally get the work done on time. I mean, the purpose of life is not to torture yourself.
There are a lot more important things to have in life than a high IQ. Determination, perseverence, honor, a code, self-sacrifice, etc. etc. I'll bet that Indian guy who killed those two people before killing himself had a high IQ, too.Replies: @Former Darfur, @Anonymous, @Hippopotamusdrome
Actually there’s very little interest in or discussion about IQ in the Alt-Right. The Alt-Right seems primarily interested in various flavors of nationalism. Even the HBD blogs and sites don’t really discuss IQ much.
Black kids in elementary school can be bright, witty and charmingly entertaining. Then comes puberty and they get sullen and distant. Hormones change everything.Replies: @Harry Baldwin
The 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica had a different explanation. Interestingly, this section has been expunged from some of the on-line versions.
I was under the assumption that Ali was now practicing traditional Islam but his burial won't be until next Friday and traditional Muslims, like Jews, are supposed to be buried as soon a possible after death. Ali could have been buried today, I doubt there was an autopsy.Replies: @Wanderer
I would guess that the tenants of NOI changed as often as the wind back in those days.
Oh, so they ran a boarding house then. Was it easy to get a room at the NOI?
I can believe that Ali had a subnormal IQ. He had a series of rhymes that he would repeat, and even when he was doing his schtick about punching the Joe Frazier gorilla toy, you could see that he was stumbling over his lines.
I think anyone with an IQ of, say, 115, can do just about anything, except maybe physics, and the thing holding such a person back from that would be the inability to literally get the work done on time. I mean, the purpose of life is not to torture yourself.
There are a lot more important things to have in life than a high IQ. Determination, perseverence, honor, a code, self-sacrifice, etc. etc. I'll bet that Indian guy who killed those two people before killing himself had a high IQ, too.Replies: @Former Darfur, @Anonymous, @Hippopotamusdrome
India isn’t a nation known for IQ. I suspect there was some fraud and affirmitave action funny business involved.
Also, IQ and criminality are correlated.
Uh...
Mean. Right tail. 1.2 billion data points.
Well, whites have got Dr. Seuss.
I was a bit surprised, but that's what he said. I believe Ali endorsed Reagan in 1984.Replies: @pepperinmono
Interestingly, Wilt, James Brown, Ray Charles were Republicans, even after the LBJ transformation.
Foreman also came back to win the heavyweight title at 45, which was amazing.
That said, Vince Lombardi would be a successful coach in today's NFL, just like Bill Belichick would have been in the 50s.Replies: @Honesthughgrant, @Triumph104, @Dave Pinsen, @Hapalong Cassidy, @5371
Mark Rippetoe notes something of an exception here: http://startingstrength.com/article/the_press
The overhead press used to be an Olympic weightlifting event until it was scrapped. Rip includes a video clip there of a Belgian cleaning and then pressing 500lbs over his head and wonders if anyone alive today can do it.
Of all the Starting Strength coaches, I think there’s one who can press more than 300lbs overhead.
Also, IQ and criminality are correlated.Replies: @PiltdownMan
Uh…
Mean. Right tail. 1.2 billion data points.
Sly Stone representative of the “light side” of the Force.
Ali is Kylo Ren/ Darth Vader
Considering how this country treated Joe Louis, I think that’s a poor example.
That said, Vince Lombardi would be a successful coach in today's NFL, just like Bill Belichick would have been in the 50s.Replies: @Honesthughgrant, @Triumph104, @Dave Pinsen, @Hapalong Cassidy, @5371
But also consider that back in Ali’s time, Boxing was exceeded in popularity only by Baseball among the major sports. Nowadays, Boxing is exceeded in popularity by MMA, to say nothing of the Big Four major league team sports. So when Ali was growing up, the very best athletes in his time aspired to become boxers. Had Ali grown up several decades later, he might have become a wide receiver or point guard.
Muhammad Ali was part Irish.
In his last years, he made a number of trips to Ireland, exploring his Irish heritage.
Ali is Kylo Ren/ Darth VaderReplies: @Desiderius
No, more like Biden in the 2012 VP debate. The contrast between Ali and Ryan is instructive.
O.J. Simpson was a Republican as well.
The overhead press used to be an Olympic weightlifting event until it was scrapped. Rip includes a video clip there of a Belgian cleaning and then pressing 500lbs over his head and wonders if anyone alive today can do it.
Of all the Starting Strength coaches, I think there's one who can press more than 300lbs overhead.Replies: @2Mintzin1, @Brutusale
Not sure that I would consider myself to have done a proper press if I used the form that Reding does…there’s a lot of “kick” there…still, he avoids doing the Standing Bench Press which was so common back then, and eventually helped lead to the demise of the clean and press as an Olympic event. Of course, now we have the consolation of viewing women’s beach volleyball.
There isn't any need for low IQ thugs. Really what would MA be if he weren't a boxer who got lucky? A nobody or even a career criminal. His options were very limited because of his IQ. He wasn't even fit for the military.
And I know masculine men, they weren't Ali who was part showman. Most are quiet and confident men you don't want to f**k with.
People get the stupid notion of what masculine is from the TV and a bunch of roided up black professional athletes that are mostly crybabies when they get a owie. They aren't it, not by a long shot.
Look at the white professional soldiers in Special Ops. Tough as nails and quite smart, but generally not the swaggering d-nozzles you find in pro-sports. Or the guys who work in heavy industry or do tower work where a mistake could kill them. Those guys got cajones.Replies: @anon, @Desiderius, @Mark2, @Triumph104, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Santoculto
”Society need”
depend what society you’re talking about
”high technological society”
indeed, some people are very ”autistic”, they don’t give a shit for extremely important philosophical questions…
What lack in the high technological societies is wisdom, what is putting you in a extremely fragile situation.
Most of the ”highly technological society” of the future based on fiction science movies and literature look gray, without any vestige of natural environment, read= nature, and much more a ”world of the work/worker/ domesticated and self-delusional enslaved” than a world of the full-beings, a inhumane, efficient and nonsense society.
Sportsmanship presupposes victory*, victory competition itself, an endeavor that has fallen into disrepute among our supposed betters.
That is the power to which Ali’s braggadoccio speaks truth, accounting for his widespread popularity among those who feel its lack.
* – no one is complaining about Ali being a poor loser.
(“I’m the greatest!” presupposes a great and a not so great, not just participation trophies.)
On Fox the other night, Geraldo Rivera, gasbag extraordinaire, described Muhammad Ali as “brilliant.”
An example of the fawning over blacks, and Ali in particular, common to people (literary and otherwise) of Halberstam's milieu.
Not just "anyone" can paint well enough to earn a living, 'specially one with an IQ just ahead of imbecile and moron.
In point of fact, that one AR inmate whom Governor Bill Clinton in early '92 had executed, he had an IQ of around 78 (74-78, somewhere in there). So one possibility if boxing didn't work out would be: fighting in real life. As Ali knew how to fight in the ring perhaps he could've applied his physical talents in real life, out on the streets.Replies: @anon
What would be a guess for Mahatma Gandhi’s IQ, Jesus’s IQ?
M.A.’s character is more important than his IQ. He fought hard and suffered as a Conscientious Objector when Vietnam war was not yet unpopular. He could have easily skirted like the higher I.Q. people like Clinton, Gingrich, Bushes, Trump, Sanders etc.,
We'l remember you said that. This is the same boorish lout who had tons of hookers, prostitutes, some bastard children, etc. Real man of character, that.
When his country called, unlike Joe Louis, he declined to serve and served no one during his life as well as himself.
And also, NOI is technically a type of black liberation theology where all non-blacks are the devil and violence by any means is advocated. Originally violence was considered necessary in order to achieve a separate US state or territory 'for us, by us'. So he was a part of an organization that used violence, murder etc to achieve its stated goals and the people he associated with in the NOI such as Malcolm X, Louis Farrakhan, etc were all home grown terrorists.
Again, this is NOT a hero.
The late David Halberstam thought Ali had the most astute analysis of the Vietnam War of anyone. Halberstam also declared Ali sacrificed more due to the war than anyone.
An example of the fawning over blacks, and Ali in particular, common to people (literary and otherwise) of Halberstam’s milieu.
I think you are just enjoying making a remark that is cruel. Rather than true but unpopular. I mean how is the EB1911 on atomic theory?
Yeah, “just like” Goliath or Hector, except neither of them refused to fight for his country or home.
His form is fine.
https://youtu.be/8COaMKbNrX0?t=267Replies: @Brutusale
Again, an athlete can’t help the era he competed in or whom he competed against. The problem with amateur athletics, and some professional fringe (in America) sports like cycling, is that they are ruled by governing bodies that are basically owned by by the equipment manufacturers. I was surprised when the swimming governing body actually banned the buoyant bodysuits in 2010. And the winning time in 2012 Olympic 100 meter freestyle was .31 seconds slower than in 2008. Which was still ELEVEN seconds faster than Weismuller in 1928.
I was a shot putter in high school. I can’t imagine just hopping forward in the circle and tossing the shot, the way it was until Parry O’Brien came along in 1951 and developed the reverse slide step, which allowed him to break the world record about 20 times and win two Olympic gold medals. That technique was the standard until Brian Oldfield came along in the early 70s with the “Oldfield spin”, which is still the standard today. Oldfield’s records weren’t recognized because he went pro after his only Olympic appearance. Parry O’Brien himself had a problem with Oldfield’s technique, but it was viewed by most as sour grapes from the old fart whose records were relegated to the dustbin of history. Does Oldfield’s spin, or Dick Fosbury’s flop, which revolutionized high jumping, or Bruce Sutter’s dominance with his split-finger fastball, make their performances less valid for all that they brought new techniques to old sporting events? Is it Michael Phelps’ fault that Weismuller had a more cavalier attitude toward training?
I can vouch for the equipment in cycling. My girlfriend does a 160-mile MS charity ride every year, and I do training rides with her (just did a 15 miler this morning). An athletic 128-pound woman on a carbon fiber Trek Silque road bike has a definite advantage over over a 285-pound weightlifter on a steel-frame Giant hybrid! Less than 10 miles, though, my leg strength gives me an advantage. Over 10 miles, she dusts my ass. Professional cycling, anticipating whining from the old-timers, decreed minimum bike weights, and if you look closely at the bikes in the Tour, some have little lead bars added near the water bottle cage.
Eddie Merckx was the Babe Ruth of road cycling, arguably the greatest cyclist ever, but his career was only 15 years before Greg LeMond and 20 before Lance Armstrong. Even LeMond was riding a steel bike, and the last metal-frame bike to win the Tour was only 18 years ago. I recall seeing a story on TV about the Nike suit that Armstrong wore shaving off a half a second per mile. How much is carbon fiber an advantage over aluminum or steel? Enough to make up the 3 MPH difference between Armstrong’s and Merckx’s best average speeds in the Tour?
And I know for sure that today’s marathoners are far superior to those in the past. Since the first Boston Marathon was held in 1897, the world record has gone from 2:55 to 2:02.
The overhead press used to be an Olympic weightlifting event until it was scrapped. Rip includes a video clip there of a Belgian cleaning and then pressing 500lbs over his head and wonders if anyone alive today can do it.
Of all the Starting Strength coaches, I think there's one who can press more than 300lbs overhead.Replies: @2Mintzin1, @Brutusale
A bit too much leg there for a true press, but still not quite a jerk. 1971…Clean? Still a mega feat, though I imagine if Olympic lifters were training to clean & press we’d be seeing some representative lifts.
This is an HBD blog. The existence of the wild cards, the mutants, guys like Vasily Alekseyev, who was content to up his world record by a pound or two every big meet because nobody else was close. Paul Anderson, who allegedly lifted more than 3 tons with a back lift. Basketball HOF player John Havlicek, who wore his opponents down, as he never tired because his resting heart rate was 32-34 BPM and maxed out at 205 BPM. Usain Bolt and his speed at 6’5″ (though the doping allegations we’ve all been waiting for have arisen).
The best proof of concept is HOF NFL offensive lineman Bruce Matthews, who played 19 seasons and 296 NFL games (229 consecutive starts) without missing a single one due to injury. Check the family tree. The prime genes for the NFL:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Matthews_(American_football)
M.A.'s character is more important than his IQ. He fought hard and suffered as a Conscientious Objector when Vietnam war was not yet unpopular. He could have easily skirted like the higher I.Q. people like Clinton, Gingrich, Bushes, Trump, Sanders etc.,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeFMyrWlZ68Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Buffalo Joe, @Hibernian
“M.A.’s character is more important than his IQ”
We’l remember you said that. This is the same boorish lout who had tons of hookers, prostitutes, some bastard children, etc. Real man of character, that.
When his country called, unlike Joe Louis, he declined to serve and served no one during his life as well as himself.
And also, NOI is technically a type of black liberation theology where all non-blacks are the devil and violence by any means is advocated. Originally violence was considered necessary in order to achieve a separate US state or territory ‘for us, by us’. So he was a part of an organization that used violence, murder etc to achieve its stated goals and the people he associated with in the NOI such as Malcolm X, Louis Farrakhan, etc were all home grown terrorists.
Again, this is NOT a hero.
Of course, it’s always America’s fault. Thank you for the correction. I had momentarily forgotten that most important fact.
That said, Vince Lombardi would be a successful coach in today's NFL, just like Bill Belichick would have been in the 50s.Replies: @Honesthughgrant, @Triumph104, @Dave Pinsen, @Hapalong Cassidy, @5371
Depends entirely on what you mean by yesteryear. There are a lot of fields where today’s athlete is far behind his counterpart of 25-30 years ago.
M.A.'s character is more important than his IQ. He fought hard and suffered as a Conscientious Objector when Vietnam war was not yet unpopular. He could have easily skirted like the higher I.Q. people like Clinton, Gingrich, Bushes, Trump, Sanders etc.,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeFMyrWlZ68Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Buffalo Joe, @Hibernian
Anon, I wouldn’t hazard to guess the IQ of either Jesus or Gandhi, but I don’t think you can name a more important historical person than Christ. More has been written about his time on earth than any other person.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Services_(entertainment)
If I were advising him, I would have suggested some non-combatant service like above for a CO. But I think his very public opposition to the war helped precipitate, at least to a small degree, a larger revulsion. In this, he may be compared to Rosa Parks, who just by refusing to move precipitated the agitation that produced the revulsion to segregation. In that sense, he is comparable to MLK Jr., Mandela or Gandhi though he was not a saint (others weren't too). Sometimes, not going with the flow has its benefits.Replies: @Buffalo Joe
And you wonder why people disparage your IQs.Replies: @Jus' Sayin'..., @Buffalo Joe, @celt darnell, @BB753
People under 40 years old have never heard about Muhammad Ali, that’s the truth, plain and simple. Maybe some have seen the biopic, but that’s about all.
It’s sad that Ali is being treated like a head of state and doesn’t deserve any of it and worse from whites who should know better. Yet when a white man sacrifices his own life as in the case of the Blue Angel’s pilot Captain Kuss in order to save others.
He gets squat. Even from the HBD crowd.
Shows me what these folks really look up – smack talking black athletes.
Maybe its the Baby Boomers. Frankly the Millennials and beyond don't really give a shit.
Just look how few want to acknowledge that Chris Kyle was a hero. Unlike Ali, Kyle actually did real life. It wasn't pretty, but one day some will wake up and realize that the SEALS do the work that millions can't do in oder to keep the US safe.
I was a shot putter in high school. I can't imagine just hopping forward in the circle and tossing the shot, the way it was until Parry O'Brien came along in 1951 and developed the reverse slide step, which allowed him to break the world record about 20 times and win two Olympic gold medals. That technique was the standard until Brian Oldfield came along in the early 70s with the "Oldfield spin", which is still the standard today. Oldfield's records weren't recognized because he went pro after his only Olympic appearance. Parry O'Brien himself had a problem with Oldfield's technique, but it was viewed by most as sour grapes from the old fart whose records were relegated to the dustbin of history. Does Oldfield's spin, or Dick Fosbury's flop, which revolutionized high jumping, or Bruce Sutter's dominance with his split-finger fastball, make their performances less valid for all that they brought new techniques to old sporting events? Is it Michael Phelps' fault that Weismuller had a more cavalier attitude toward training?
I can vouch for the equipment in cycling. My girlfriend does a 160-mile MS charity ride every year, and I do training rides with her (just did a 15 miler this morning). An athletic 128-pound woman on a carbon fiber Trek Silque road bike has a definite advantage over over a 285-pound weightlifter on a steel-frame Giant hybrid! Less than 10 miles, though, my leg strength gives me an advantage. Over 10 miles, she dusts my ass. Professional cycling, anticipating whining from the old-timers, decreed minimum bike weights, and if you look closely at the bikes in the Tour, some have little lead bars added near the water bottle cage.
Eddie Merckx was the Babe Ruth of road cycling, arguably the greatest cyclist ever, but his career was only 15 years before Greg LeMond and 20 before Lance Armstrong. Even LeMond was riding a steel bike, and the last metal-frame bike to win the Tour was only 18 years ago. I recall seeing a story on TV about the Nike suit that Armstrong wore shaving off a half a second per mile. How much is carbon fiber an advantage over aluminum or steel? Enough to make up the 3 MPH difference between Armstrong's and Merckx's best average speeds in the Tour?
And I know for sure that today's marathoners are far superior to those in the past. Since the first Boston Marathon was held in 1897, the world record has gone from 2:55 to 2:02.Replies: @cthulhu
Advancements in training have been huge in swimming, but technique has evolved substantially too. For that 100 free, the major technique improvements are the way the swimmer comes off the blocks, the amount of time spent below the surface and the submerged dolphin kick, and the arm motion above and below the water. These improvements are probably worth 3 seconds or so at the elite level for that race comparing 2012 with 1928. The amount of biomechanics work put into sports like swimming is amazing.
HBD yes, but with a strong emphasis on reality. Matthews and many many of the names you mention could easily have been juicing, a la PEDS. Example: Future HOF Ray Lewis suffered a tricep tear which would normally end a career or keep one sidelined for several months. He comes back in about 10 weeks and plays full strength (for his age which was near 40) and plays in the Super Bowl. Happy ending to a most dominant career. Only a fool believes that he didn’t take anything to hasten his recovery. At least the NFL and especially world weight lifting competitions have always had their share (the vast majority) of juicers. It was and still is to some extent largely accepted.
Come on. It’s 2016, not 1950s where everyone worked hard, trained just right, and presto–achieved their dreams, their results just like that thru the ol’ fashioned way without taking anything stronger than Jack Armstrong’s Wheaties.
It’s called Juicing. You can HBD, Sabermetrics, etc all you want. Reality still has a way of creeping in.
This guy became a Millionaire living in America, but did he appreciate it? Like the rest of his race, his biggest attribute was ingratitude. He wouldn’t even enter the Army to entertain the troops in Nam. He claimed the yellow race never did anything to him. Did he know in the Far East they don’t consider his kind human? Did he care?
George Foreman loves America. He waved the American flag when he won a medal at the Olympics. Ali bowed his head and gave the black power salute. Ali’s strategy of rope a dope is actually cheating. Those ropes are only there to keep the fighters from falling off the high stage the ring is on. You’re not supposed to even touch the ropes during the fight. That’s why no one else has ever used that “strategy”. In the USA, he would have been disqualified for laying on the ropes, its against the rules.
All the lies that make the legend. All the media guys who tried to make him look good like Howard Cosell. He hated them for their race, and that’s a fact.
Hey, the truth hurts.
By the way:Ali had to get Frazier to fight him. Frazier was not obliged to do so. Do you think Ali might just have been taunting Frazier to get him in the ring? Or would it be easier to stupidly believe that Ali was racist? To Frazier's everlasting credit he gave Ali the match.Replies: @utu
Thank you for your comment! IQ warriors here have a problem with Ali.
Agree; I was just making a point that IQ is not the sum total of a human’s value as a lot of posters seem to have got stuck in the rut here. M.A. could have agreed to go to ‘Nam and would have performed some entertainment shows for the troops and came home almost totally risk free.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Services_(entertainment)
If I were advising him, I would have suggested some non-combatant service like above for a CO. But I think his very public opposition to the war helped precipitate, at least to a small degree, a larger revulsion. In this, he may be compared to Rosa Parks, who just by refusing to move precipitated the agitation that produced the revulsion to segregation. In that sense, he is comparable to MLK Jr., Mandela or Gandhi though he was not a saint (others weren’t too). Sometimes, not going with the flow has its benefits.
I don’t suppose that Google will have a google doodle dedicated to Chris Kyle in the future? I wonder why not? – Because Chris Kyle was cold blooded killer. Every sniper is.
I suppose if Kyle were black, then there in fact would be a google doodle dedicated to him at one point in the future. Just as there will be one to "Tookie" Williams.
Kyle was and remains a hero from the Iraq War, as he had the medals to prove it.
Apparently to you it does.
Who served his country by keeping America safe. Since it is so close to Memorial Day (holiday technically honors the fallen who have given their lives in service). Navy SEALS aren’t cold blooded killers in the sense that that was written. Kyle is in the noble tradition of WW2 Audie Murphy, the most decorated WW2 Vet. And no one called Murphy a killer. Some may not want to think how these new conflicts are fought, but they aren’t fought on horseback with swords and shields. Unfortunately the SEALS are a necessary part of all present conflicts.
I suppose if Kyle were black, then there in fact would be a google doodle dedicated to him at one point in the future. Just as there will be one to “Tookie” Williams.
Kyle was and remains a hero from the Iraq War, as he had the medals to prove it.
He gets squat. Even from the HBD crowd.
Shows me what these folks really look up - smack talking black athletes.Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
Exactly. And a smack talking athlete with an IQ just above moron and imbecile. It was understandable that such cretins as Howard Cosell would literally verbal fellatio Ali back in the day (in order to use him for some larger purpose and tear down the historical American nation, etc) but for this current obsession of worshipping him at his death. Really? Seriously?
Maybe its the Baby Boomers. Frankly the Millennials and beyond don’t really give a shit.
Just look how few want to acknowledge that Chris Kyle was a hero. Unlike Ali, Kyle actually did real life. It wasn’t pretty, but one day some will wake up and realize that the SEALS do the work that millions can’t do in oder to keep the US safe.
Mom and Dad and I (then an infant) lived there in 1954-55 while Dad was stationed at Quantico.
You're confusing glibness with intelligence. You really believe that guy sounds like Bertrand Russell?
A few decades ago, do-gooder-type psychologists came up with the idea that poor performance by NAMs on IQ tests was a function of cultural bias. So they stopped using questions like those from the old WAIS or Stanford- Binet like "who wrote Faust?" and added questions like "which shape comes next"? Guess what happened.Replies: @Hibernian
There’s a difference between NAMs in general and Ali in particular. His military IQ test was at least FIVE decades ago. As I mentioned in another post, I took an IQ test as a young kid in the early 1960s in which there was definitely a causal relationship, not mere correlation, between vocabulary knowledge and test performance. I clearly remember, 52 years later, a particular pure vocabulary question which I, despite my cultural advantages, missed.
Retarded kids were mainstreamed when I was in Jr. High, and I remember Ali on TV in about the same time frame. No way they’re in the same category.
There is some weird wishful thinking in this thread.
When a 9 year old golf prodigy named Stephen Robert Hernandez asked Steve Harvey what 4 x 3 is, Steve couldn't answer.
Steve Harvey is no Ben Carson when it comes to being part of the intellectual talented Black tenth, that's for damn sure.
If Steve Harvey was a White man, I doubt he would have gotten this far in life with his current IQ. He is Hollywood's affirmative action.Replies: @Hibernian
I’ve only heard him say a few words on the radio. He didn’t strike me as a dummy. Aptitude and achievement are two different, although of course related, things. I agree he’s no Einstein.
You mean, making him famous and rich?
M.A.'s character is more important than his IQ. He fought hard and suffered as a Conscientious Objector when Vietnam war was not yet unpopular. He could have easily skirted like the higher I.Q. people like Clinton, Gingrich, Bushes, Trump, Sanders etc.,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeFMyrWlZ68Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Buffalo Joe, @Hibernian
If he’d gone into the service, he probably would’ve put on boxing exhibitions for servicemen. He could have avoided combat without avoiding the service.
It’s a true press, just not a military press. He’s knees don’t bend at all during it. He’s just moving his hips, which is normal, helps get your head out of the way, and doesn’t do much to help lift the weight.
This would not surprise me; that’s why I wrote 20th century.
Tagliaferro -> Toliver? Not a Jew.
Such as?
Uh, no.
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/news-blog/nfl-players-who-use-steroids-have-m-2009-02-20/
Guys like Nomar Garciaparra being a prime example. Skinny kid with great ability, he hits .372 in 2000, appears on the cover of Sports Illustrated in the spring of 2001 carrying about 25 pounds of added muscle, spends most of the 2001 season injured and only totals more than 500 ABs in 3 of his remaining 8 seasons after having over 600 ABs in 2 of his first 4 seasons. Juicers give up durability and flexibility.
Artificial muscle mass overloads connective tissue genetically predisposed to a lighter load.. The muscle tear, like those suffered by Ray Lewis and Ted Johnson, seems to be the the dead giveaway of a juicer. The irony is that some steroids can be used to return from injury quicker, as Ray Lewis and Rodney Harrison did. At least Harrison was upfront about it and took his suspension like a man.
There’s no way a guy like Matthews was any sort of regular juicer; he’d never have started 226 consecutive games. I give Barry Bonds full credit for being a judicious user. Or maybe full credit should go to Greg Anderson for a good cycling program.
Sure he would have. Just as there are all kinds of steroids there are all kinds of juicers. In Mark Fainaru-Wada and Lance Armstrong’s definitive BALCO book “Game of Shadows” they highlight NFL Bill Romanowski, a consistent as in twenty yrs plus juicer who started in 243 consecutive games at LB for SF; PHIL; and Denver. He was a juicer for his entire career and yet never missed a game for nearly twenty yrs.
The tricep tear that Ray Lewis suffered takes over a year to recover. Oftentimes it is a career ending injury depending on the severity (like it did to DE PIT Aaron Smith). Only a naif believes Lewis’s story that he “only” used dear antler spray during his three month layoff between his injury suffered and his return in January for the playoffs.
HOF LA Rams Jack Youngblood played in Super Bowl XIV on a broken foot, how he managed to even move around the field is anyone’s guess. But Lewis played after missing about 8-10 games (the injury happened during the middle of the season) and he came back just three months later. That isn’t possible, especially since he played at reasonable level of strength for his advanced age (late thirties). That’s beyond returning from an injury, that’s juicing pure and simple. Lewis wasn’t gonna miss the opportunity to play in the Super Bowl, and he didn’t.
And again, if borderline HOFer LB Bill Romanowski was a 20 plus yr juicer its fair to ask why anyone should give a pass to Matthews. The fact that he hasn’t missed a game at the position that he plays tends to make the point that he probably has been juicing, albeit in a more “judicious” ) way. Only a fool thinks that Matthews hasn’t suffered any kind of injury during his consecutive game streak. How has he managed to play thru the pain? With certain kinds of injuries, painkillers alone won’t cut it. Training hard via the ol’ fashioned way won’t cut it either. What is he taking? Since its the NFL, it does’t matter since the media doesn’t care about that question as it relates to the NFL. Its entirely possible that Matthews has had a least a couple of concussions. Officially the NFL protocols etc. But there are ways around that, unofficially. The position that Matthews plays is one of the most punishing in the NFL and its ridiculous to think he hasn’t suffered a couple of injuries during this time. If he has, how has he managed to play thru them? Painkillers, probably. But painkillers alone aren’t enough to play thru many kinds of injuries. And I mean by “playing thru” at the consistent dominant level that his Pro Bowl calibre has dictated. Therefore its reasonable to assume that Matthews is juicing.
Brett Favre also played in a consecutive game streak at QB but we know that he took tons of painkillers to help him. Only a fool believes that’s the only type of PED that he took during his lengthy consecutive game streak.
There are many, many kinds of PEDS. Don’t be so quick to give a pass to Matthews. It’s the NFL and they tend to have a high rate of PED usage (due to various factors such as money, and of course the fact that their jobs are never secure–there’s always someone ready to take their place on the roster).
He seems to have single-handedly helped extend the life of boxing as a sport middle class people followed closely. If I'm not mistaken, wasn't boxing up until the mid 50's more or less America's number two spectator sport behind baseball? But though people didn't really realize it at the time of Ali's reign, it seems he and the attention he brought to the sport was its last gasp.
Sugar Ray Leonard, Duran, Marvin Hagler and to a lesser extent Larry Holmes were all still famous figures in my eyes in the 70's. And Mike Tyson in the 80's. But since then neither myself nor anyone I ever talk sports with really knows any boxers. Something I don't think any prepubescent boy of the 70's would ever have seen coming with how central Ali was to sports during that period.Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @RadicalCenter
I guess experience varies. I was born in 1971, near NY City, and we never cared about boxing or Ali. Baseball and hockey were my family’s sports then, and now.
The guy was semi-retarded when he started, got brain-damaged being punched in the head, and converted to a religion so irrational, stupid, and vicious that it makes the other religions look sensible, rational, and peaceful.
What’s to talk about?
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Services_(entertainment)
If I were advising him, I would have suggested some non-combatant service like above for a CO. But I think his very public opposition to the war helped precipitate, at least to a small degree, a larger revulsion. In this, he may be compared to Rosa Parks, who just by refusing to move precipitated the agitation that produced the revulsion to segregation. In that sense, he is comparable to MLK Jr., Mandela or Gandhi though he was not a saint (others weren't too). Sometimes, not going with the flow has its benefits.Replies: @Buffalo Joe
Anon, Thank you for a nice nuanced response,
“Thomas “Hitman” Hearns , who held titles at several different weight classes.”
That 3-way rivalry in the early to mid 80’s between Hagler, Hearns, and Leonard produced some outstanding fights.
That Hagler/Hearns fight where Hearns broke his hand (on Hagler’s head IIRC) produced the most exciting round of boxing (the first round) that I’ve ever seen. It was like watching a street fight between two guys that disliked each other greatly but that knew what they were doing.
I pulled that fight up on Youtube and showed it to my 14 year-old MMA fan son that thinks boxing is boring. His response afterwards was “whoa…”
I’m from the DC area so always liked and pulled for our local guy Sugar Ray, but Hagler and Hearns were both immense talents.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51090bGcoR8
Back in the '70's it seemed as if the Big 3 (Foreman, Frazier, and Ali) would be exchanging the title for years, due to the fact that each man's style checkmated the other. Frazier had no chance against Foreman, but could give Ali everything he could handle (and more).Replies: @Anonymous, @William Badwhite
” Because of his speed and head movement, the Mike Tyson of the Cus D’Amato era was actually very hard to hit.”
Very good p0int. Tyson was a very good fighter when young.
He then became a noticeably worse fighter after D’Amato passed away. His defense in particular became non-existent. The thoroughly forgettable Buster Douglas hit him at will in that upset.
Famous, yes; rich, not so much
That 3-way rivalry in the early to mid 80's between Hagler, Hearns, and Leonard produced some outstanding fights.
That Hagler/Hearns fight where Hearns broke his hand (on Hagler's head IIRC) produced the most exciting round of boxing (the first round) that I've ever seen. It was like watching a street fight between two guys that disliked each other greatly but that knew what they were doing.
I pulled that fight up on Youtube and showed it to my 14 year-old MMA fan son that thinks boxing is boring. His response afterwards was "whoa..."
I'm from the DC area so always liked and pulled for our local guy Sugar Ray, but Hagler and Hearns were both immense talents.Replies: @Brutusale
The downside of boxing is that the true spectacular savagery of the best fights to watch, like the 3 basically non-stop rounds of Hagler/Hearns or the 15 brutal rounds of Mancini/Kim, the fight that caused boxing commissions to go from 15 to 12 rounds, leaves the participants indelibly, and in Kim’s case fatally, changed.
I guess I’ll just ignore the study in favor of peer-reviewed anecdotes.
Fair enough. The man was a saint, I tell ya! Ha! But you have to love the coverage. With all his racism as regards mixing white/black women and men, “homphobic” ( I hate that word) faggot remarks, all forgiven, he’s now a saint. Then, you have to reconcile his promiscuous and predatory behavior toward women, his failure to care for many of his children, the count is up to twelve now, nine that he once acknowledged, more will turn up for sure. In the ring, he was a profane and racist and vicious super-predator. Most of all toward his own race.
And he gets a pass for all of it. I guess Black trumps post-modern Feminist/Sexual protocol/PC dogma. I always like to see which trumps the other in these deals. Sort of a wonder as to which entitled, privileged groups’ interest holds sway/dominance in any given situation. Black-Run America wins this one, feminism and the sexual lobbies have to sit still for this guy and his many sins.