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From the Yucatan Times:

In 1930, Mexico wanted Mesoamerican god Quetzalcoatl to represent Christmas instead of Santa Claus

By Yucatan Times on December 29, 2019

On December 23, 1930, the stage to deliver toys to poor children, by the government of Mexico, was a pyramid in honor of Quetzalcoatl inside the National Stadium.

That year President Pascual Ortíz Rubio decreed the adoption of the figure of the god of Mesoamerica, Quetzalcóatl, as the representative of the December holidays with the intention of putting aside the figure of Santa Claus, newly arrived in Mexico in the 20s and not yet so rooted in Mexican culture.

The Feathered Serpent was a prominent supernatural entity or deity, found in many Mesoamerican religions. It was called Quetzalcoatl among the Aztecs …

… The decree on November 27, 1930, ordered that instead of Santos Reyes or Santa Claus, Quetzalcoatl, the pre-Hispanic deity, would be the replacement of Santa Claus, so that it was intended to promote, through education, a nationalist formation in which Pascual Ortiz Rubio supported at the time.

The aim was “to evolve evolutionarily in the heart of the child, the love for the symbols, the divinities and traditions of our culture and our race”, according to the published decree.

The peak of the post-Revolutionary Mexican government’s war on Christianity is remembered mostly through Graham Greene’s 1936 novel The Power and the Glory.

That there is a War on Christmas today is often denied, since Christmas remains immensely popular, especially with children. The truth is:

  • Yes, there is a War on Christmas.
  • But, Christmas keeps winning.
 
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  1. Ah, the Christeros. That was a nasty little war. Funny historical irony: the KKK bankrolled the atheist government in Mexico City because they hated the Catholic Church more than the socialists.

    One thing that you learn when studying revolutionary Russia is the stunning degree of sadism-seriously, these stories are not for the faint hearted-meted out by the revolutionaries toward lay Orthodox clergy or believers. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that similar things happened in Catholic Spain or Mexico. However, there’s an interesting little difference that perhaps explains why the Bolsheviks won in Russia, yet Franco won in Spain. The Catholic clergy was far more embedded in the local communities in rural Spain-and far more respected by the peasantry-than the Orthodox clergy was in Russia, where the peasant brand of Orthodoxy retained a lot of semi-pagan overtones that would have been foreign to much of Europe.

    Using this-possible inaccurate-model, then, Mexico was somewhere in between the two.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    @nebulafox

    Also, little addendum: despite being part of the Tsarist empire, Christianity among the peasantry in Poland seemed to follow the "Spanish" model rather than the "Russian" one, which partly explained why things went why they did in 1918-1920. I think this goes deeper than the simple divide between Catholicism and Orthodoxy (I'd be surprised if most Latin American nations weren't more like Russia during that time period) and indicates deeper historical differences: it reflects how the more "diluted" a religion is among the people, the easier it is to root it out. This is also usually intimately tied into national identity, which was far stronger in the more rationalized, systematized religion nations.

    I don't think this is necessarily about shallowness of identification. Most Russian peasants sincerely believed they were Orthodox and would have proudly said so if asked. But that didn't translate into affiliation with the wider church. This partly reflects the lack of penetration the state and church had into peasant life, and one of the symptoms, again, was a paganistic day-to-day sheen in peasant religious practice that wasn't as formidable for the revolutionaries to deal with.

    Replies: @JMcG

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @nebulafox


    Ah, the [C]risteros. That was a nasty little war.
     
    If you're in the Kristkindlmarkt for a spirited defense of los cristeros, listen to Christopher Check's presentation to the Argument of the Month Club in South St. Paul in 2012:



    ¡Viva Cristo Rey! The Cristeros and the Martyrs of the Mexican Revolution

    https://img.culturacolectiva.com/content_image/2021/12/6/1638811212283-quetzalcoatl-aztec-god-santa-claus-replacement-christmas-Sin%20ti%CC%81tulo.jpg


    This was just posted, appropriately, on La Fiesta de San Nicolás:


    The day Quetzalcoatl replaced Santa to bring gifts on Christmas

    Replies: @nebulafox, @Dutch Boy

    , @Alden
    @nebulafox

    Thanks didn’t know the KKK bankrolled the Mex government during the Cristos war. Same time they were black mailing lobbying state legislatures to outlaw private or mostly catholic schools in the USA. It would be interesting to know who really inspired the anti catholic KKK of 1920-1940. Supposedly both the KKK and the anti catholic Mexican government were both Masons.

    The KKK was a big factor in prohibition and amateur enforcement of it. One reason Triple A was founded. Amateur KKK patrols stopped cars and searched for alcohol.

    Replies: @Anon

    , @Good Vibes
    @nebulafox


    Funny historical irony: the KKK bankrolled the atheist government in Mexico City because they hated the Catholic Church more than the socialists.
     
    Is there any support for that claim? They did get preoccupied with religious concerns back in the 1920s. But it's hard to imagine them having the funds to play international games like that.
    , @JMcG
    @nebulafox

    Franco was one of the towering figures of the 20th Century. Smashed the commies, refused to be drawn into WWII by the Nazis. Kept the peace after a very bloody civil war for 40 years. He’s never received his due, no more than Pinochet has.

    Replies: @Alden

    , @S Johnson
    @nebulafox

    Eastern Orthodoxy had a tradition of unfailing obedience to the Emperor, which left them in kind of a hole when Tsar Nicholas suddenly abdicated. Russian Christianity survived, passed down mainly by women. In contrast western Catholicism, centred on the Pope, had usually been in conflict with the secular authorities, and Spain had been turbulent since at least the Napoleonic wars. It wasn’t a hard mental leap to switch to defying them.

    Replies: @nebulafox

  2. Well , now they are trying to make Santa a homosexual so the left is not deterred.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @Mike Tre

    From some old song overheard long ago, barely remembered:

    Santa Claus,
    wears a red suit.
    He's a communist.

    Long hair,
    and a beard.
    He's a pacifist.

    What's he carrying in that sack?
    What's he smoking in that pipe?

    Santa Claus,
    wears a red suit.
    He's a communist...

    (And no, I'm not going to Google it for details. I prefer to just remember a friend singing it. Too bad I can't write the melody. I can hear it in my head.)

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

  3. @nebulafox
    Ah, the Christeros. That was a nasty little war. Funny historical irony: the KKK bankrolled the atheist government in Mexico City because they hated the Catholic Church more than the socialists.

    One thing that you learn when studying revolutionary Russia is the stunning degree of sadism-seriously, these stories are not for the faint hearted-meted out by the revolutionaries toward lay Orthodox clergy or believers. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that similar things happened in Catholic Spain or Mexico. However, there's an interesting little difference that perhaps explains why the Bolsheviks won in Russia, yet Franco won in Spain. The Catholic clergy was far more embedded in the local communities in rural Spain-and far more respected by the peasantry-than the Orthodox clergy was in Russia, where the peasant brand of Orthodoxy retained a lot of semi-pagan overtones that would have been foreign to much of Europe.

    Using this-possible inaccurate-model, then, Mexico was somewhere in between the two.

    Replies: @nebulafox, @Reg Cæsar, @Alden, @Good Vibes, @JMcG, @S Johnson

    Also, little addendum: despite being part of the Tsarist empire, Christianity among the peasantry in Poland seemed to follow the “Spanish” model rather than the “Russian” one, which partly explained why things went why they did in 1918-1920. I think this goes deeper than the simple divide between Catholicism and Orthodoxy (I’d be surprised if most Latin American nations weren’t more like Russia during that time period) and indicates deeper historical differences: it reflects how the more “diluted” a religion is among the people, the easier it is to root it out. This is also usually intimately tied into national identity, which was far stronger in the more rationalized, systematized religion nations.

    I don’t think this is necessarily about shallowness of identification. Most Russian peasants sincerely believed they were Orthodox and would have proudly said so if asked. But that didn’t translate into affiliation with the wider church. This partly reflects the lack of penetration the state and church had into peasant life, and one of the symptoms, again, was a paganistic day-to-day sheen in peasant religious practice that wasn’t as formidable for the revolutionaries to deal with.

    • Replies: @JMcG
    @nebulafox

    It’s hard to explain how quickly Ireland has moved from arguably the most Catholic country in Europe to almost totally post-religious. The Catholic faith in rural Ireland always seemed wilder and less tamed than here in the States. The roadside shrines and holy wells etc. seemed much of a piece with the dolmens and standing stones. There were always people that were thought to have cures for various ailments. Many of the women of Ireland, including my mother, adored the priests. Many of the men, like my father, held them in contempt.

    Replies: @LondonBob, @Anon

  4. Santa Claus is not a big part of Christmas in Spain, they focus on the three wise men giving gifts, has it caught on to become a big deal in Mexico?

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @Barnard

    In Eastern Europe, St. Nicholas climbs in the window on December 5 and leaves modest gifts in the children's boots. Fruits and candies, that sort of thing.

    The Christ Child brings the tree on Christmas Eve. Parents decorate the tree and family members exchange gifts that night.

    On January 6th, the Orthodox Christians celebrate Three Kings Day, when the Wise Men did their thing. That is their Christmas.

    Not much Santa Claus, unless you count St. Nick breaking in on 12/5.

    American traditions are growing there, though. Kids there now even do Halloween on October 31, but the real one has always been the Day of the Dead, November 1, which is a time for remembering ancestors.

    Replies: @S Johnson

  5. The 1930 Mexican war on Christmas was prefigured by D.H. Lawrence’s 1926 novel The Plumed Serpent, which centers on a plot by a Mexican group called the Men of Quetzalcoatl to replace Christianity with an indigenous, pagan religion.

  6. That there is a War on Christmas today is often denied, since Christmas remains immensely popular, especially with children. The truth is:

    Yes, there is a War on Christmas.
    But, Christmas keeps winning.

    I joked to someone at a Christmas parade this week that Christmas and Halloween were turning into each other. Halloween now has month-long lawn displays, and Christmas parades toss out candy. (Which is actually more Mardi Gras than Halloween.)

    Then we went to a lighted garden in a nearby park, and watched fireworks from the parade route over a lake. So I repeated the joke to a couple there, adding the Fourth of July to it.

    What other observances can we combine with Christmas? Labor Day? It celebrates a birth, after all. Easter? Good Friday?

    Up on the house top, nailed to a cross,
    Hangs our Savior, Jesus Claus…

    • LOL: Colin Wright
  7. @nebulafox
    Ah, the Christeros. That was a nasty little war. Funny historical irony: the KKK bankrolled the atheist government in Mexico City because they hated the Catholic Church more than the socialists.

    One thing that you learn when studying revolutionary Russia is the stunning degree of sadism-seriously, these stories are not for the faint hearted-meted out by the revolutionaries toward lay Orthodox clergy or believers. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that similar things happened in Catholic Spain or Mexico. However, there's an interesting little difference that perhaps explains why the Bolsheviks won in Russia, yet Franco won in Spain. The Catholic clergy was far more embedded in the local communities in rural Spain-and far more respected by the peasantry-than the Orthodox clergy was in Russia, where the peasant brand of Orthodoxy retained a lot of semi-pagan overtones that would have been foreign to much of Europe.

    Using this-possible inaccurate-model, then, Mexico was somewhere in between the two.

    Replies: @nebulafox, @Reg Cæsar, @Alden, @Good Vibes, @JMcG, @S Johnson

    Ah, the [C]risteros. That was a nasty little war.

    If you’re in the Kristkindlmarkt for a spirited defense of los cristeros, listen to Christopher Check’s presentation to the Argument of the Month Club in South St. Paul in 2012:


    ¡Viva Cristo Rey! The Cristeros and the Martyrs of the Mexican Revolution

    This was just posted, appropriately, on La Fiesta de San Nicolás:

    The day Quetzalcoatl replaced Santa to bring gifts on Christmas

    • Thanks: Alden
    • Replies: @nebulafox
    @Reg Cæsar

    Hey, the Aztec gods were pretty cool. What 8 year old boy doesn't get a kick of deities with flayed skin and eyeballs dropping out of their sockets? Made for a refreshing break from feminism and "Invade the world, Invite the world" induced "Modern Christianity" lectures every Sunday.

    That said, I get the impression that the main brunt of the repression (that led to the first mass wave of immigration from Mexico in the 1920s and 1930s) came from European and Soviet influenced atheist bougie types rather than unreconstructed indios.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Verymuchalive, @mc23

    , @Dutch Boy
    @Reg Cæsar

    The peace that was brokered by the Catholic Church and the USA was followed by the assassinations of the Cristero leaders by the Mexican government. Something of a non-peace peace.

    Replies: @Dan Hayes

  8. There is no evidence that the myth of Quetzalcoatl was pre-conquest. All known references to it are post-conquest. The myth appears to be heavily influenced by Christianity. Quetzalcoatl is not really a Mesoamerican god but a post-conquest synthesis of Christian beliefs and traditional Mesoamerican beliefs.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    @Jim

    Cortes was an extremely gifted propagandist who understood the appeal of the notion that the Mexica thought they were gods back home in Spain. (He was also something of a rampaging narcissist, so the idea would have been appealing in itself.)

    There's no evidence the Aztecs really thought the Spanish were divine. Their actions show otherwise-to put it mildly. You don't try to trick deities. You certainly do not execute them like you would common criminals, as they'd eventually do to Spanish prisoners during the final battle.

  9. But, Christmas keeps winning.

    Not True. At All. What Is Winning is Black Friday. The word association with Christmas is Shopping not Festival or Holiday.

    • Replies: @JMcG
    @epebble

    Ireland now celebrates Black Friday without even having Thanksgiving. Same day as in the USA. Black Friday is disgusting.

    Replies: @Corn

  10. @Mike Tre
    Well , now they are trying to make Santa a homosexual so the left is not deterred.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

    From some old song overheard long ago, barely remembered:

    Santa Claus,
    wears a red suit.
    He’s a communist.

    Long hair,
    and a beard.
    He’s a pacifist.

    What’s he carrying in that sack?
    What’s he smoking in that pipe?

    Santa Claus,
    wears a red suit.
    He’s a communist…

    (And no, I’m not going to Google it for details. I prefer to just remember a friend singing it. Too bad I can’t write the melody. I can hear it in my head.)

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Arlo Guthrie


    https://youtu.be/ToPvZ1cL-AQ

    The very long intro is anti-FBI. That makes it even more relevant today! Guthrie was a Paulist Republican about a dozen years ago, but is about as independent as you can get.


    This next song we're going to dedicate to a great American
    organization. Tonight I'd like to dedicate this to our boys
    in the FBI.

    Well, wait a minute. It's hard to be an FBI man. I mean, first
    of all, being an FBI man, you have to be over 40 years old.
    And the reason is that it takes at least 25 years with the
    organization to be that much of a bastard. It's true. You just
    can't join, you know. It needs an atmosphere where your
    natural bastardness can grow and develop and take a
    meaningful shape in today's complex society.

    But that's not why I want to dedicate the song to the FBI. I
    mean, the job that they have to do is a drag. I mean, they have
    to follow people around, you know. That's part of their job.
    Follow me around.

    I'm out on the highway and I'm drivin' down the road and I
    run out of gasoline. I pull over to the side of the road. They
    gotta pull over too - make believe that they ran out, you
    know.

    I go to get some gasoline. They have to figure out whether
    they should stick with the car or follow me. Suppose I don't
    come back and they're stayin' with the car.

    Or if I fly on the airplanes, I could fly half fare because I'm 12
    to 22. And they gotta pay the full fare. But the thing is that
    when you pay the full fare, you have to get on the airplane
    first, so that they know how many seats are left over for the
    half fare kids. Right? And sometimes there aren't any seats
    left over, and sometimes there are, but that doesn't mean that
    you have to go.

    Suppose that he gets on and fills up the last seat, so you can't
    get on. Then he gets off then you can get on. What's he gonna
    do?

    Well, it's a drag for him. But that's not why I want to dedicate
    the song to the FBI.

    During these hard days and hard weeks, everybody always
    has it bad once in a while. You know, you have a bad time of
    it, and you always have a friend who says "Hey man, you
    ain't got it that bad. Look at that guy." And you at that
    guy, and he's got it worse than you. And it makes you feel
    better that there's somebody that's got it worse than you.

    But think of the last guy. For one minute, think of the last
    guy. Nobody's got it worse than that guy. Nobody in the
    whole world. That guy...he's so alone in the world that he
    doesn't even have a street to lay in for a truck to run him over.
    He's out there with nothin'. Nothin's happenin' for that cat.

    And all that he has to do to create a little excitement in his
    own life is to bum a dime from somewhere, call up the FBI.
    Say "FBl?", they say "Yes", say "I think Uncle Ho and Chair-
    man Mao and their friends are comin' over for dinner" (click)
    Hang up the phone.

    And within two minutes, and not two minutes from when he
    hangs up the phone, but two minutes from when he first put
    the dime in, they got 30,000 feet of tape rollin'; files on tape;
    pictures, movies, dramas, actions on tape. But then they send
    out a half a million people all over the entire world, the globe,
    they find out all they can about this guy.

    'Cause there's a number of questions involved in the guy. I
    mean, if he was the last guy in the world, how'd he get a dime
    to call the FBI? There are plenty of people that aren't the last
    guys that can't get dimes. He comes along and he gets a dime.

    I mean, if he had to bum a dime to call the FBI, how was he
    gonna serve dinner for all of those people? How could the
    last guy make dinner for all those people. And if he could
    make dinner, and was gonna make dinner, then why did he
    call the FBI?

    They find out all of those questions within two minutes. And
    that's a great thing about America. I mean, this is the only
    country in the world...l mean, well, it's not the only country
    in the world that could find stuff out in two minutes, but it's
    the only country in the world that would take two minutes
    for that guy.

    Other countries would say "Hey, he's the last guy...screw
    him", you know? But in America, there is no discrimination,
    and there is no hypocrisy,'cause they'll get anybody. And that's
    a wonderful thing about America.

    And that's why tonight I'd like to dedicate it to every FBI
    man in the audience. I know you can't say nothin', you know,
    you can't get up and say "Hi!" cause then everybody knows
    that you're an FBI man and that's a drag for you and your
    friends.

    They're not really your friends, are they? I mean, so you can't
    get up and say nothin' 'cause other wise, you gotta get sent
    back to the factory and that's a drag for you and it's an
    expense for the government, and that's a drag for you.

    We're gonna sing you this Christmas carol. It's for all you
    bastards out there in the audience tonight. It's called "The
    Pause of Mr. Claus".

    Why do you sit there so strange?
    Is it because you are beautiful?
    You must think you are deranged
    Why do police guys beat on peace guys?

    You must think Santa Clause weird
    He has long hair and a beard
    Giving his presents for free
    Why do police guys mess with peace guys?

    Let's get Santa Clause 'cause;
    Santa Clause has a red suit
    He's a communist
    And a beard, and long hair
    Must be a pacifist
    What's in the pipe that he's smoking?

    Mister Clause sneaks in your home at night.
    He must be a dope fiend, to put you up tight
    Why do police guys beat on peace guys?

     

  11. @Reg Cæsar
    @nebulafox


    Ah, the [C]risteros. That was a nasty little war.
     
    If you're in the Kristkindlmarkt for a spirited defense of los cristeros, listen to Christopher Check's presentation to the Argument of the Month Club in South St. Paul in 2012:



    ¡Viva Cristo Rey! The Cristeros and the Martyrs of the Mexican Revolution

    https://img.culturacolectiva.com/content_image/2021/12/6/1638811212283-quetzalcoatl-aztec-god-santa-claus-replacement-christmas-Sin%20ti%CC%81tulo.jpg


    This was just posted, appropriately, on La Fiesta de San Nicolás:


    The day Quetzalcoatl replaced Santa to bring gifts on Christmas

    Replies: @nebulafox, @Dutch Boy

    Hey, the Aztec gods were pretty cool. What 8 year old boy doesn’t get a kick of deities with flayed skin and eyeballs dropping out of their sockets? Made for a refreshing break from feminism and “Invade the world, Invite the world” induced “Modern Christianity” lectures every Sunday.

    That said, I get the impression that the main brunt of the repression (that led to the first mass wave of immigration from Mexico in the 1920s and 1930s) came from European and Soviet influenced atheist bougie types rather than unreconstructed indios.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @nebulafox


    What 8 year old boy doesn’t get a kick of deities with flayed skin and eyeballs dropping out of their sockets?
     
    The classmates of Jackson Sparks?

    Replies: @nebulafox

    , @Verymuchalive
    @nebulafox


    That said, I get the impression that the main brunt of the repression (that led to the first mass wave of immigration from Mexico in the 1920s and 1930s) came from European and Soviet influenced atheist bougie types rather than unreconstructed indios.
     
    You never mention the Jew, do (((you))).

    Replies: @nebulafox

    , @mc23
    @nebulafox

    The ruling class in Mexico has never been unreconstructed indios. In Mexico the Conquistadores have always ruled over the indians and mestizos.

    I call our current elites the Conquistador Class. They believe they're destined to rule for the ages. Instead of conquering they’re importing.

    Replies: @nebulafox

  12. @Jim
    There is no evidence that the myth of Quetzalcoatl was pre-conquest. All known references to it are post-conquest. The myth appears to be heavily influenced by Christianity. Quetzalcoatl is not really a Mesoamerican god but a post-conquest synthesis of Christian beliefs and traditional Mesoamerican beliefs.

    Replies: @nebulafox

    Cortes was an extremely gifted propagandist who understood the appeal of the notion that the Mexica thought they were gods back home in Spain. (He was also something of a rampaging narcissist, so the idea would have been appealing in itself.)

    There’s no evidence the Aztecs really thought the Spanish were divine. Their actions show otherwise-to put it mildly. You don’t try to trick deities. You certainly do not execute them like you would common criminals, as they’d eventually do to Spanish prisoners during the final battle.

  13. @Barnard
    Santa Claus is not a big part of Christmas in Spain, they focus on the three wise men giving gifts, has it caught on to become a big deal in Mexico?

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

    In Eastern Europe, St. Nicholas climbs in the window on December 5 and leaves modest gifts in the children’s boots. Fruits and candies, that sort of thing.

    The Christ Child brings the tree on Christmas Eve. Parents decorate the tree and family members exchange gifts that night.

    On January 6th, the Orthodox Christians celebrate Three Kings Day, when the Wise Men did their thing. That is their Christmas.

    Not much Santa Claus, unless you count St. Nick breaking in on 12/5.

    American traditions are growing there, though. Kids there now even do Halloween on October 31, but the real one has always been the Day of the Dead, November 1, which is a time for remembering ancestors.

    • Replies: @S Johnson
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Not quite. Some Eastern Orthodox churches still use the Julian calendar, so celebrate Christmas (and December 25th) on what’s January 7th for the rest of the world. Epiphany for them would be 12 days later. In Spain I believe “los Reyes” or January 6th is still the main gift-giving day. This is the twelfth day of Christmas, the end of the traditional feast period. Twelfth Night, the night before, corresponds to the old tradition of Saturnalia, a night of silliness and role-reversal.

  14. Christmas is popular because of the innate greed of human beings.

    Whoopdedo.

    • Replies: @Old Prude
    @obwandiyag

    Oh, toss oby-wan. Christmas is about love. The presents are merely corporal expressions there-of.

  15. Japan seems to have adopted Chrismas.

    KFC…https://www.trafalgar.com/real-word/japan-christmas-kfc/

    FWIW, I’ve had positive experiences with US fast food in foreign countries. Management seem to take it more seriously. Like follow the formula/recipes.

  16. @nebulafox
    Ah, the Christeros. That was a nasty little war. Funny historical irony: the KKK bankrolled the atheist government in Mexico City because they hated the Catholic Church more than the socialists.

    One thing that you learn when studying revolutionary Russia is the stunning degree of sadism-seriously, these stories are not for the faint hearted-meted out by the revolutionaries toward lay Orthodox clergy or believers. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that similar things happened in Catholic Spain or Mexico. However, there's an interesting little difference that perhaps explains why the Bolsheviks won in Russia, yet Franco won in Spain. The Catholic clergy was far more embedded in the local communities in rural Spain-and far more respected by the peasantry-than the Orthodox clergy was in Russia, where the peasant brand of Orthodoxy retained a lot of semi-pagan overtones that would have been foreign to much of Europe.

    Using this-possible inaccurate-model, then, Mexico was somewhere in between the two.

    Replies: @nebulafox, @Reg Cæsar, @Alden, @Good Vibes, @JMcG, @S Johnson

    Thanks didn’t know the KKK bankrolled the Mex government during the Cristos war. Same time they were black mailing lobbying state legislatures to outlaw private or mostly catholic schools in the USA. It would be interesting to know who really inspired the anti catholic KKK of 1920-1940. Supposedly both the KKK and the anti catholic Mexican government were both Masons.

    The KKK was a big factor in prohibition and amateur enforcement of it. One reason Triple A was founded. Amateur KKK patrols stopped cars and searched for alcohol.

    • LOL: profnasty
    • Replies: @Anon
    @Alden

    …. One reason Triple A was founded. Amateur KKK patrols stopped cars and searched for alcohol…..

    Enquiring minds want to know more

    Replies: @Alden

  17. >not using Xipe Toltec to represent “wrapped” presents
    Missed opportunity.

  18. @nebulafox
    @Reg Cæsar

    Hey, the Aztec gods were pretty cool. What 8 year old boy doesn't get a kick of deities with flayed skin and eyeballs dropping out of their sockets? Made for a refreshing break from feminism and "Invade the world, Invite the world" induced "Modern Christianity" lectures every Sunday.

    That said, I get the impression that the main brunt of the repression (that led to the first mass wave of immigration from Mexico in the 1920s and 1930s) came from European and Soviet influenced atheist bougie types rather than unreconstructed indios.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Verymuchalive, @mc23

    What 8 year old boy doesn’t get a kick of deities with flayed skin and eyeballs dropping out of their sockets?

    The classmates of Jackson Sparks?

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    @Reg Cæsar

    The sociopaths are always going to be there. Less of a problem than the SOB who didn't ensure he was locked up 'till God saw fit to see him drop-kicked to hell, but gave him a fraction of the bail that Rittenhouse was offered.

  19. @Buzz Mohawk
    @Mike Tre

    From some old song overheard long ago, barely remembered:

    Santa Claus,
    wears a red suit.
    He's a communist.

    Long hair,
    and a beard.
    He's a pacifist.

    What's he carrying in that sack?
    What's he smoking in that pipe?

    Santa Claus,
    wears a red suit.
    He's a communist...

    (And no, I'm not going to Google it for details. I prefer to just remember a friend singing it. Too bad I can't write the melody. I can hear it in my head.)

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Arlo Guthrie

    The very long intro is anti-FBI. That makes it even more relevant today! Guthrie was a Paulist Republican about a dozen years ago, but is about as independent as you can get.

    [MORE]

    This next song we’re going to dedicate to a great American
    organization. Tonight I’d like to dedicate this to our boys
    in the FBI.

    Well, wait a minute. It’s hard to be an FBI man. I mean, first
    of all, being an FBI man, you have to be over 40 years old.
    And the reason is that it takes at least 25 years with the
    organization to be that much of a bastard. It’s true. You just
    can’t join, you know. It needs an atmosphere where your
    natural bastardness can grow and develop and take a
    meaningful shape in today’s complex society.

    But that’s not why I want to dedicate the song to the FBI. I
    mean, the job that they have to do is a drag. I mean, they have
    to follow people around, you know. That’s part of their job.
    Follow me around.

    I’m out on the highway and I’m drivin’ down the road and I
    run out of gasoline. I pull over to the side of the road. They
    gotta pull over too – make believe that they ran out, you
    know.

    I go to get some gasoline. They have to figure out whether
    they should stick with the car or follow me. Suppose I don’t
    come back and they’re stayin’ with the car.

    Or if I fly on the airplanes, I could fly half fare because I’m 12
    to 22. And they gotta pay the full fare. But the thing is that
    when you pay the full fare, you have to get on the airplane
    first, so that they know how many seats are left over for the
    half fare kids. Right? And sometimes there aren’t any seats
    left over, and sometimes there are, but that doesn’t mean that
    you have to go.

    Suppose that he gets on and fills up the last seat, so you can’t
    get on. Then he gets off then you can get on. What’s he gonna
    do?

    Well, it’s a drag for him. But that’s not why I want to dedicate
    the song to the FBI.

    During these hard days and hard weeks, everybody always
    has it bad once in a while. You know, you have a bad time of
    it, and you always have a friend who says “Hey man, you
    ain’t got it that bad. Look at that guy.” And you at that
    guy, and he’s got it worse than you. And it makes you feel
    better that there’s somebody that’s got it worse than you.

    But think of the last guy. For one minute, think of the last
    guy. Nobody’s got it worse than that guy. Nobody in the
    whole world. That guy…he’s so alone in the world that he
    doesn’t even have a street to lay in for a truck to run him over.
    He’s out there with nothin’. Nothin’s happenin’ for that cat.

    And all that he has to do to create a little excitement in his
    own life is to bum a dime from somewhere, call up the FBI.
    Say “FBl?”, they say “Yes”, say “I think Uncle Ho and Chair-
    man Mao and their friends are comin’ over for dinner” (click)
    Hang up the phone.

    And within two minutes, and not two minutes from when he
    hangs up the phone, but two minutes from when he first put
    the dime in, they got 30,000 feet of tape rollin’; files on tape;
    pictures, movies, dramas, actions on tape. But then they send
    out a half a million people all over the entire world, the globe,
    they find out all they can about this guy.

    ‘Cause there’s a number of questions involved in the guy. I
    mean, if he was the last guy in the world, how’d he get a dime
    to call the FBI? There are plenty of people that aren’t the last
    guys that can’t get dimes. He comes along and he gets a dime.

    I mean, if he had to bum a dime to call the FBI, how was he
    gonna serve dinner for all of those people? How could the
    last guy make dinner for all those people. And if he could
    make dinner, and was gonna make dinner, then why did he
    call the FBI?

    They find out all of those questions within two minutes. And
    that’s a great thing about America. I mean, this is the only
    country in the world…l mean, well, it’s not the only country
    in the world that could find stuff out in two minutes, but it’s
    the only country in the world that would take two minutes
    for that guy.

    Other countries would say “Hey, he’s the last guy…screw
    him”, you know? But in America, there is no discrimination,
    and there is no hypocrisy,’cause they’ll get anybody. And that’s
    a wonderful thing about America.

    And that’s why tonight I’d like to dedicate it to every FBI
    man in the audience. I know you can’t say nothin’, you know,
    you can’t get up and say “Hi!” cause then everybody knows
    that you’re an FBI man and that’s a drag for you and your
    friends.

    They’re not really your friends, are they? I mean, so you can’t
    get up and say nothin’ ’cause other wise, you gotta get sent
    back to the factory and that’s a drag for you and it’s an
    expense for the government, and that’s a drag for you.

    We’re gonna sing you this Christmas carol. It’s for all you
    bastards out there in the audience tonight. It’s called “The
    Pause of Mr. Claus”.

    Why do you sit there so strange?
    Is it because you are beautiful?
    You must think you are deranged
    Why do police guys beat on peace guys?

    You must think Santa Clause weird
    He has long hair and a beard
    Giving his presents for free
    Why do police guys mess with peace guys?

    Let’s get Santa Clause ’cause;
    Santa Clause has a red suit
    He’s a communist
    And a beard, and long hair
    Must be a pacifist
    What’s in the pipe that he’s smoking?

    Mister Clause sneaks in your home at night.
    He must be a dope fiend, to put you up tight
    Why do police guys beat on peace guys?

    • Thanks: Buzz Mohawk
  20. @nebulafox
    @Reg Cæsar

    Hey, the Aztec gods were pretty cool. What 8 year old boy doesn't get a kick of deities with flayed skin and eyeballs dropping out of their sockets? Made for a refreshing break from feminism and "Invade the world, Invite the world" induced "Modern Christianity" lectures every Sunday.

    That said, I get the impression that the main brunt of the repression (that led to the first mass wave of immigration from Mexico in the 1920s and 1930s) came from European and Soviet influenced atheist bougie types rather than unreconstructed indios.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Verymuchalive, @mc23

    That said, I get the impression that the main brunt of the repression (that led to the first mass wave of immigration from Mexico in the 1920s and 1930s) came from European and Soviet influenced atheist bougie types rather than unreconstructed indios.

    You never mention the Jew, do (((you))).

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    @Verymuchalive

    Dude, don't be such an over-the-top pussy. Just say Jew. No need for all the "((()))" (seriously, that looks like a vagina!) stuff. You won't drop dead from ancient Hebraic curses, I promise.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3mZmXKauXc

    Go around 9:00. Sulla realized quickly which red pill was the retarded one after taking it, and which one was the right one. You can do so, too. You'll even end up with your very own Metrobius some day if you work really hard. ;)

    Replies: @Verymuchalive

  21. The 2012 movie The Greater Glory was about the Cristero uprising, an old style Hollywood type epic. I think it did okay with audiences but not so well with critics.

    One critic called it more educational the involving. Roger Ebert said “it is well-made, yes, but has such pro-Catholic tunnel vision I began to question its view of events.” I guess sorta along the lines of that movie Exodus.

    What I took away from the movie way that it was a Paean to the heroism and dedication of not so distant family now almost forgotten and airbrushed from history.

    Interestingly The Kights of Columbus in America raised a lot of money for the Cristeros.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    @mc23


    Roger Ebert said “it is well-made, yes, but has such pro-Catholic tunnel vision I began to question its view of events.”
     
    The Cristero War was not a conflict between Baptists and Catholics. It was a conflict between Communists and Catholics. Communists who hung priests. Opposition to that is not "pro-Catholic tunnel vision."
    , @nebulafox
    @mc23

    >I think it did okay with audiences but not so well with critics.

    The critics who approved of "Fauci" when everybody else lambasted it as the propaganda it blatantly is.

    , @Alden
    @mc23

    I saw it in TV. It was good. Especially the beginning with. people talking about “ we have to do something”. Mexico didn’t legalize Catholicism again until the 1990s.

  22. @nebulafox
    @Reg Cæsar

    Hey, the Aztec gods were pretty cool. What 8 year old boy doesn't get a kick of deities with flayed skin and eyeballs dropping out of their sockets? Made for a refreshing break from feminism and "Invade the world, Invite the world" induced "Modern Christianity" lectures every Sunday.

    That said, I get the impression that the main brunt of the repression (that led to the first mass wave of immigration from Mexico in the 1920s and 1930s) came from European and Soviet influenced atheist bougie types rather than unreconstructed indios.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Verymuchalive, @mc23

    The ruling class in Mexico has never been unreconstructed indios. In Mexico the Conquistadores have always ruled over the indians and mestizos.

    I call our current elites the Conquistador Class. They believe they’re destined to rule for the ages. Instead of conquering they’re importing.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    @mc23

    Of course not. Have you seen a Mexican soap?

    That's why I find it amusing to be lectured by the descendants of conquistadors and Brahmins about supposed notions of racial hereditary guilt. And why, if any prominent figure in this country had a pair, they'd be laughed out of public life as the grifters they are. After all: one of the points of America is that it is *not* a neo-feudal place where you are locked into your destiny by birth, isn't it? Everything isn't laid out for you here. The wacky, the rebel: they can thrive, create positive stuff that we cannot even imagine today. I won't let these people crush that dream.

  23. Proto-Kwanzaa mexicana.
    Quetzalcoatl says, “!Jo, jo, jo!”

  24. @Reg Cæsar
    @nebulafox


    What 8 year old boy doesn’t get a kick of deities with flayed skin and eyeballs dropping out of their sockets?
     
    The classmates of Jackson Sparks?

    Replies: @nebulafox

    The sociopaths are always going to be there. Less of a problem than the SOB who didn’t ensure he was locked up ’till God saw fit to see him drop-kicked to hell, but gave him a fraction of the bail that Rittenhouse was offered.

  25. Majority Catholic nations have been pretty resistant to the Santa cult. In most of Latin America it’s “El Niño Dios” (the God Child) who brings kids gifts (in France le petit Jésus). Ironically this tradition was probably initiated by Martin Luther who wanted to suppress traditional saints’ day celebrations so moved gift-giving from the 6th to Christmas and focused it on Jesus. “Kris Kringle” is a corruption of Christkindl or Christ Child, like Santa Claus/Sinterklaas is St Nicholas. Another example of Protestantism influencing post-Reformation Catholicism.

    Later Puritans saw Christmas itself as tending towards idolatry and so tried to suppress it. Calvinism was dominant in Scotland where New Year (Hogamanay) was the bigger deal. Christmas Day didn’t become a public holiday there until 1958.

  26. But, Christmas keeps winning

    Christmas is now defined by buying consumer products and consuming media. The highest virtues of Christmas are decorating your house with gaudy electronics and giving out made in China gifts to your favorite people like friends, family, and your greedy boss. The most popular Christmas music has no references to Christ and were written primarily by jews. Nativity scenes are banned in every locality in the US, because that would somehow violate the 1st Amendment (giant menorahs on the White House lawn are a-ok though!)

    The War on Christmas was lost decades ago, and boomers like Steve are living in denial because they can’t accept that the America of their youth was nothing more than a product, crafted to maximize consumption in a country that worships money above all else. I guess the pagans can take solace in the fact that their precious Yule is no longer Christian, but an ode to capitalism.

    • Disagree: Old Prude
  27. @mc23
    @nebulafox

    The ruling class in Mexico has never been unreconstructed indios. In Mexico the Conquistadores have always ruled over the indians and mestizos.

    I call our current elites the Conquistador Class. They believe they're destined to rule for the ages. Instead of conquering they’re importing.

    Replies: @nebulafox

    Of course not. Have you seen a Mexican soap?

    That’s why I find it amusing to be lectured by the descendants of conquistadors and Brahmins about supposed notions of racial hereditary guilt. And why, if any prominent figure in this country had a pair, they’d be laughed out of public life as the grifters they are. After all: one of the points of America is that it is *not* a neo-feudal place where you are locked into your destiny by birth, isn’t it? Everything isn’t laid out for you here. The wacky, the rebel: they can thrive, create positive stuff that we cannot even imagine today. I won’t let these people crush that dream.

  28. @Verymuchalive
    @nebulafox


    That said, I get the impression that the main brunt of the repression (that led to the first mass wave of immigration from Mexico in the 1920s and 1930s) came from European and Soviet influenced atheist bougie types rather than unreconstructed indios.
     
    You never mention the Jew, do (((you))).

    Replies: @nebulafox

    Dude, don’t be such an over-the-top pussy. Just say Jew. No need for all the “((()))” (seriously, that looks like a vagina!) stuff. You won’t drop dead from ancient Hebraic curses, I promise.

    Go around 9:00. Sulla realized quickly which red pill was the retarded one after taking it, and which one was the right one. You can do so, too. You’ll even end up with your very own Metrobius some day if you work really hard. 😉

    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
    @nebulafox

    Misdirection and obfuscation, as ever.

  29. @Buzz Mohawk
    @Barnard

    In Eastern Europe, St. Nicholas climbs in the window on December 5 and leaves modest gifts in the children's boots. Fruits and candies, that sort of thing.

    The Christ Child brings the tree on Christmas Eve. Parents decorate the tree and family members exchange gifts that night.

    On January 6th, the Orthodox Christians celebrate Three Kings Day, when the Wise Men did their thing. That is their Christmas.

    Not much Santa Claus, unless you count St. Nick breaking in on 12/5.

    American traditions are growing there, though. Kids there now even do Halloween on October 31, but the real one has always been the Day of the Dead, November 1, which is a time for remembering ancestors.

    Replies: @S Johnson

    Not quite. Some Eastern Orthodox churches still use the Julian calendar, so celebrate Christmas (and December 25th) on what’s January 7th for the rest of the world. Epiphany for them would be 12 days later. In Spain I believe “los Reyes” or January 6th is still the main gift-giving day. This is the twelfth day of Christmas, the end of the traditional feast period. Twelfth Night, the night before, corresponds to the old tradition of Saturnalia, a night of silliness and role-reversal.

    • Thanks: Buzz Mohawk
  30. @nebulafox
    Ah, the Christeros. That was a nasty little war. Funny historical irony: the KKK bankrolled the atheist government in Mexico City because they hated the Catholic Church more than the socialists.

    One thing that you learn when studying revolutionary Russia is the stunning degree of sadism-seriously, these stories are not for the faint hearted-meted out by the revolutionaries toward lay Orthodox clergy or believers. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that similar things happened in Catholic Spain or Mexico. However, there's an interesting little difference that perhaps explains why the Bolsheviks won in Russia, yet Franco won in Spain. The Catholic clergy was far more embedded in the local communities in rural Spain-and far more respected by the peasantry-than the Orthodox clergy was in Russia, where the peasant brand of Orthodoxy retained a lot of semi-pagan overtones that would have been foreign to much of Europe.

    Using this-possible inaccurate-model, then, Mexico was somewhere in between the two.

    Replies: @nebulafox, @Reg Cæsar, @Alden, @Good Vibes, @JMcG, @S Johnson

    Funny historical irony: the KKK bankrolled the atheist government in Mexico City because they hated the Catholic Church more than the socialists.

    Is there any support for that claim? They did get preoccupied with religious concerns back in the 1920s. But it’s hard to imagine them having the funds to play international games like that.

  31. Greene’s novel builds on his travelogue:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lawless_Roads

    Some entertaining stuff about anti Christian names for children * and identification of the clergy with the hated gachupines (first generation Spaniards, often from Galicia in NW Spain).

    * Not confined to Mexico. From the Wikipedia entry on the Ecuadorian politician

    Lenín Moreno was born into a middle-class family in Nuevo Rocafuerte, a small town in the Ecuadorian Amazon, near the Peruvian border. His father, Servio Tulio Moreno, was a teacher who promoted bilingual education and integrated schools for indigenous children and mestizo children and who later became a senator. His parents named him after men they admired; his father liked Vladimir Lenin and his mother Voltaire, although an error in the civil registration turned his middle name into Boltaire[6][7] (in Spanish the letters v and b correspond to the same phoneme).[8] He moved to Quito with his family when he was three years old.[9]

  32. For Greater Glory (2012) is a wonderful movie that was hated by the critics because it was unabashedly pro-Christian in the way that Hollywood movies used to be (Quo Vadis, El Cid). The cristeros did a pretty good job holding their own against the federales, and the Mexican government’s 20-year war against the Catholic Church produced many martyrs.

    As for Quetzalcoatl, far from being an invention of the Spaniards, the plumed serpent was a deity represented in the iconography of numerous Mexican and Mesoamerican cultures dating back hundreds of years before the Conquest.

    • Replies: @Alden
    @Charlotte Allen

    Favorite name for girls was Ninel Lenin spelled backwards.

  33. @Alden
    @nebulafox

    Thanks didn’t know the KKK bankrolled the Mex government during the Cristos war. Same time they were black mailing lobbying state legislatures to outlaw private or mostly catholic schools in the USA. It would be interesting to know who really inspired the anti catholic KKK of 1920-1940. Supposedly both the KKK and the anti catholic Mexican government were both Masons.

    The KKK was a big factor in prohibition and amateur enforcement of it. One reason Triple A was founded. Amateur KKK patrols stopped cars and searched for alcohol.

    Replies: @Anon

    …. One reason Triple A was founded. Amateur KKK patrols stopped cars and searched for alcohol…..

    Enquiring minds want to know more

    • Replies: @Alden
    @Anon

    I read about it in a book about the downfall of the KKK in Indiana. I just googled KKK prohibition and 3 pages came up. KKK was very big in the anti saloon league. The anti salon league was the group led by a man that really got prohibition passed.

  34. @nebulafox
    @Verymuchalive

    Dude, don't be such an over-the-top pussy. Just say Jew. No need for all the "((()))" (seriously, that looks like a vagina!) stuff. You won't drop dead from ancient Hebraic curses, I promise.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3mZmXKauXc

    Go around 9:00. Sulla realized quickly which red pill was the retarded one after taking it, and which one was the right one. You can do so, too. You'll even end up with your very own Metrobius some day if you work really hard. ;)

    Replies: @Verymuchalive

    Misdirection and obfuscation, as ever.

  35. @mc23
    The 2012 movie The Greater Glory was about the Cristero uprising, an old style Hollywood type epic. I think it did okay with audiences but not so well with critics.

    One critic called it more educational the involving. Roger Ebert said "it is well-made, yes, but has such pro-Catholic tunnel vision I began to question its view of events." I guess sorta along the lines of that movie Exodus.

    What I took away from the movie way that it was a Paean to the heroism and dedication of not so distant family now almost forgotten and airbrushed from history.

    Interestingly The Kights of Columbus in America raised a lot of money for the Cristeros.

    Replies: @Hibernian, @nebulafox, @Alden

    Roger Ebert said “it is well-made, yes, but has such pro-Catholic tunnel vision I began to question its view of events.”

    The Cristero War was not a conflict between Baptists and Catholics. It was a conflict between Communists and Catholics. Communists who hung priests. Opposition to that is not “pro-Catholic tunnel vision.”

    • Agree: Alden
  36. @nebulafox
    Ah, the Christeros. That was a nasty little war. Funny historical irony: the KKK bankrolled the atheist government in Mexico City because they hated the Catholic Church more than the socialists.

    One thing that you learn when studying revolutionary Russia is the stunning degree of sadism-seriously, these stories are not for the faint hearted-meted out by the revolutionaries toward lay Orthodox clergy or believers. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that similar things happened in Catholic Spain or Mexico. However, there's an interesting little difference that perhaps explains why the Bolsheviks won in Russia, yet Franco won in Spain. The Catholic clergy was far more embedded in the local communities in rural Spain-and far more respected by the peasantry-than the Orthodox clergy was in Russia, where the peasant brand of Orthodoxy retained a lot of semi-pagan overtones that would have been foreign to much of Europe.

    Using this-possible inaccurate-model, then, Mexico was somewhere in between the two.

    Replies: @nebulafox, @Reg Cæsar, @Alden, @Good Vibes, @JMcG, @S Johnson

    Franco was one of the towering figures of the 20th Century. Smashed the commies, refused to be drawn into WWII by the Nazis. Kept the peace after a very bloody civil war for 40 years. He’s never received his due, no more than Pinochet has.

    • Agree: Old Prude, Alden
    • Replies: @Alden
    @JMcG

    Franco was the greatest man of the 20th century. Just as Ferdinand and Isabella were the greatest sovereigns of the late medieval period.

    The following statement is not pro catholic. It’s just the absolute truth.

    Were not for the Popes from 650AD to 1800 AD Europe would be as Muslim as Turkey and the Arab countries are. Our European White peoples western civilization would not exist.

  37. ..to deliver toys to poor children, by the government of Mexico..

    Beware the government bringing gifts. No wonder why Mexico’s still a third world country.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    @Yngvar

    Mexico has many problems, but it is not a third world country. It's not an absurdly rich country like the United States or Canada is, but it's not a poor, undeveloped one either. On global standards, they are basically middle to upper middle class. For comparison, I'd say that Mexico is somewhere in between Malaysia and Thailand, development wise, poorer than the former, richer than the latter. It is closer to the latter in practical wealth (especially if you ignore Bangkok) but closer to the former in social dynamics, if you remove the racial issues in Malaysia. It's also not demographically divided between a small oligarchic elite and masses of indigenous peasants with the occasional batch of "turco" middlemen, like Guatemala, El Salvador, etc are, thanks to immigration.

    Having said that, Mexico's development stagnated several decades ago, for multiple reasons: most of their own making, but to be fair to them, the rise of China really, really didn't help them. So I expect some Asian countries that are poorer now-Thailand, Vietnam-to overtake it within a decade or two.

    Replies: @John Johnson

  38. @nebulafox
    @nebulafox

    Also, little addendum: despite being part of the Tsarist empire, Christianity among the peasantry in Poland seemed to follow the "Spanish" model rather than the "Russian" one, which partly explained why things went why they did in 1918-1920. I think this goes deeper than the simple divide between Catholicism and Orthodoxy (I'd be surprised if most Latin American nations weren't more like Russia during that time period) and indicates deeper historical differences: it reflects how the more "diluted" a religion is among the people, the easier it is to root it out. This is also usually intimately tied into national identity, which was far stronger in the more rationalized, systematized religion nations.

    I don't think this is necessarily about shallowness of identification. Most Russian peasants sincerely believed they were Orthodox and would have proudly said so if asked. But that didn't translate into affiliation with the wider church. This partly reflects the lack of penetration the state and church had into peasant life, and one of the symptoms, again, was a paganistic day-to-day sheen in peasant religious practice that wasn't as formidable for the revolutionaries to deal with.

    Replies: @JMcG

    It’s hard to explain how quickly Ireland has moved from arguably the most Catholic country in Europe to almost totally post-religious. The Catholic faith in rural Ireland always seemed wilder and less tamed than here in the States. The roadside shrines and holy wells etc. seemed much of a piece with the dolmens and standing stones. There were always people that were thought to have cures for various ailments. Many of the women of Ireland, including my mother, adored the priests. Many of the men, like my father, held them in contempt.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    @JMcG

    Ireland is now a subsidiary of US tech, the new faith is more ruthless than the last.

    Replies: @JMcG

    , @Anon
    @JMcG

    Ireland’s birth rate, including the third world immigrants, is less than 2 per woman. Catholicism seems pretty faded out. But as they are allowed to send anyone who is unemployed here to the US anyway, maybe some of us can go there. Seems fair. Their GDP per capita is far higher than our’s now. Can we send some of our unemployed to Dublin? Or does it work only the one way?

    Replies: @JMcG

  39. @epebble
    But, Christmas keeps winning.

    Not True. At All. What Is Winning is Black Friday. The word association with Christmas is Shopping not Festival or Holiday.

    Replies: @JMcG

    Ireland now celebrates Black Friday without even having Thanksgiving. Same day as in the USA. Black Friday is disgusting.

    • Replies: @Corn
    @JMcG

    I have a Finnish friend who reported to me Finnish stores hold Black Friday sales. Insane.

  40. Christmas is a wonderful holiday–the best holiday. And i love most of the traditions we have with it in America–lights, carols/music, decorating the tree, midnight mass, mistletoe, a roaring fire, cookies and eggnog, hosting our neighborhood party, stockings, presents and a nice Christmas ham. And i hate the pissy war on Christmas from the usual suspects.

    But i have to say Santa Claus is the ugliest, dumbest, least appealing part of the deal.

  41. Allow me to Scooby-Doo this case.
    Donning Jacobson cap, herringbone half cape and black meerschuam pipe.
    OK. Pascual Ortiz Rubio.
    Rubio, Rubio, Ruben. Wanted to kill Christmas. Ah ha! By Jove I’ve got it.
    Rubio, rube-e-oh. The suspected wanted to worship a lizard. The answer is obvious as the nose on your face.
    Throw Rubio down the well.

  42. @nebulafox
    Ah, the Christeros. That was a nasty little war. Funny historical irony: the KKK bankrolled the atheist government in Mexico City because they hated the Catholic Church more than the socialists.

    One thing that you learn when studying revolutionary Russia is the stunning degree of sadism-seriously, these stories are not for the faint hearted-meted out by the revolutionaries toward lay Orthodox clergy or believers. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that similar things happened in Catholic Spain or Mexico. However, there's an interesting little difference that perhaps explains why the Bolsheviks won in Russia, yet Franco won in Spain. The Catholic clergy was far more embedded in the local communities in rural Spain-and far more respected by the peasantry-than the Orthodox clergy was in Russia, where the peasant brand of Orthodoxy retained a lot of semi-pagan overtones that would have been foreign to much of Europe.

    Using this-possible inaccurate-model, then, Mexico was somewhere in between the two.

    Replies: @nebulafox, @Reg Cæsar, @Alden, @Good Vibes, @JMcG, @S Johnson

    Eastern Orthodoxy had a tradition of unfailing obedience to the Emperor, which left them in kind of a hole when Tsar Nicholas suddenly abdicated. Russian Christianity survived, passed down mainly by women. In contrast western Catholicism, centred on the Pope, had usually been in conflict with the secular authorities, and Spain had been turbulent since at least the Napoleonic wars. It wasn’t a hard mental leap to switch to defying them.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    @S Johnson

    Yes, I think Tom Holland was onto something when he points to this as the beginning of something distinctive in Western civilization. This divide goes back to the Middle Ages and the papal reforms, and has its roots in the fact that Western Europe suffered a collapse in secular authority with the fall of the empire. This allowed-over the course of several centuries-the clergy to grow into a center of power that could challenge kings and emperors. This didn't happen outside the West.

    As you alluded to, you don't even need to leave Christianity to see a counterexample. In Byzantium, there was no fall, and the Roman state and secular bureaucracy kept on functioning despite undergoing catastrophes that would have put an end to most states. The emperor therefore remained the de facto head of church and state alike. As long as he didn't interfere with fundamental doctrinal matters (this did happen. Nikephoros Phokas-who was assassinated despite being the biggest hero Byzantium had seen in centuries-tried to introduce Islamic-esque conceptions of automatic martyrdom for those who died in battle, which disgusted and alienated the Orthodox clergy), the Byzantine emperor was free to do whatever they liked with the clergy. They fired patriarchs who displeased them all the time. An Orthodox analogue to Canossa would have been impossible. When Byzantium finally fell, Russia became its spiritual and ideological heir, with the Tsar uniting church and state, rather than the separation between temporal and spiritual power that developed in the Catholic world.

    Still, I do think my point stands: the Catholic clergy tended to be less alien to the peasantry in places like Spain and Poland, and the peasant brand of Catholicism was more in step with higher strata of society than in Russia, where the serfs largely lived in their own world, divorced from the state and the rest of society. There's a reason Russia's answer to the Vendee (a place where the clergy and nobility were far more embedded in local life than the rest of France and enjoyed positive relations with the peasantry) was a left-wing SR revolt, the Tambov Rebellion, prompted by alienation over secular policies that favored the cities rather than alienation from anti-religious policies.

    Replies: @S Johnson

  43. @Reg Cæsar
    @nebulafox


    Ah, the [C]risteros. That was a nasty little war.
     
    If you're in the Kristkindlmarkt for a spirited defense of los cristeros, listen to Christopher Check's presentation to the Argument of the Month Club in South St. Paul in 2012:



    ¡Viva Cristo Rey! The Cristeros and the Martyrs of the Mexican Revolution

    https://img.culturacolectiva.com/content_image/2021/12/6/1638811212283-quetzalcoatl-aztec-god-santa-claus-replacement-christmas-Sin%20ti%CC%81tulo.jpg


    This was just posted, appropriately, on La Fiesta de San Nicolás:


    The day Quetzalcoatl replaced Santa to bring gifts on Christmas

    Replies: @nebulafox, @Dutch Boy

    The peace that was brokered by the Catholic Church and the USA was followed by the assassinations of the Cristero leaders by the Mexican government. Something of a non-peace peace.

    • Replies: @Dan Hayes
    @Dutch Boy

    When I told a traditionalist RC priest that the American bishops sold out the Cristero leaders, his devastating response was "Why are you surprised?".

  44. @S Johnson
    @nebulafox

    Eastern Orthodoxy had a tradition of unfailing obedience to the Emperor, which left them in kind of a hole when Tsar Nicholas suddenly abdicated. Russian Christianity survived, passed down mainly by women. In contrast western Catholicism, centred on the Pope, had usually been in conflict with the secular authorities, and Spain had been turbulent since at least the Napoleonic wars. It wasn’t a hard mental leap to switch to defying them.

    Replies: @nebulafox

    Yes, I think Tom Holland was onto something when he points to this as the beginning of something distinctive in Western civilization. This divide goes back to the Middle Ages and the papal reforms, and has its roots in the fact that Western Europe suffered a collapse in secular authority with the fall of the empire. This allowed-over the course of several centuries-the clergy to grow into a center of power that could challenge kings and emperors. This didn’t happen outside the West.

    As you alluded to, you don’t even need to leave Christianity to see a counterexample. In Byzantium, there was no fall, and the Roman state and secular bureaucracy kept on functioning despite undergoing catastrophes that would have put an end to most states. The emperor therefore remained the de facto head of church and state alike. As long as he didn’t interfere with fundamental doctrinal matters (this did happen. Nikephoros Phokas-who was assassinated despite being the biggest hero Byzantium had seen in centuries-tried to introduce Islamic-esque conceptions of automatic martyrdom for those who died in battle, which disgusted and alienated the Orthodox clergy), the Byzantine emperor was free to do whatever they liked with the clergy. They fired patriarchs who displeased them all the time. An Orthodox analogue to Canossa would have been impossible. When Byzantium finally fell, Russia became its spiritual and ideological heir, with the Tsar uniting church and state, rather than the separation between temporal and spiritual power that developed in the Catholic world.

    Still, I do think my point stands: the Catholic clergy tended to be less alien to the peasantry in places like Spain and Poland, and the peasant brand of Catholicism was more in step with higher strata of society than in Russia, where the serfs largely lived in their own world, divorced from the state and the rest of society. There’s a reason Russia’s answer to the Vendee (a place where the clergy and nobility were far more embedded in local life than the rest of France and enjoyed positive relations with the peasantry) was a left-wing SR revolt, the Tambov Rebellion, prompted by alienation over secular policies that favored the cities rather than alienation from anti-religious policies.

    • Replies: @S Johnson
    @nebulafox

    One of the key figures of Russian history is the Patriarch Nikon, who reformed Russian Orthodoxy in close alliance with Tsar Alexis, the second Romanov, which precipitated the split with the Old Believers which seems to loom as large in the Russian mind in the 19th century as the Reformation did for the 17th-century west Europeans. But I don't know enough to know who was the prime mover or why controversial reforms were seen as necessary at that time.

    Replies: @nebulafox

  45. @mc23
    The 2012 movie The Greater Glory was about the Cristero uprising, an old style Hollywood type epic. I think it did okay with audiences but not so well with critics.

    One critic called it more educational the involving. Roger Ebert said "it is well-made, yes, but has such pro-Catholic tunnel vision I began to question its view of events." I guess sorta along the lines of that movie Exodus.

    What I took away from the movie way that it was a Paean to the heroism and dedication of not so distant family now almost forgotten and airbrushed from history.

    Interestingly The Kights of Columbus in America raised a lot of money for the Cristeros.

    Replies: @Hibernian, @nebulafox, @Alden

    >I think it did okay with audiences but not so well with critics.

    The critics who approved of “Fauci” when everybody else lambasted it as the propaganda it blatantly is.

  46. @Yngvar

    ..to deliver toys to poor children, by the government of Mexico..
     
    Beware the government bringing gifts. No wonder why Mexico's still a third world country.

    Replies: @nebulafox

    Mexico has many problems, but it is not a third world country. It’s not an absurdly rich country like the United States or Canada is, but it’s not a poor, undeveloped one either. On global standards, they are basically middle to upper middle class. For comparison, I’d say that Mexico is somewhere in between Malaysia and Thailand, development wise, poorer than the former, richer than the latter. It is closer to the latter in practical wealth (especially if you ignore Bangkok) but closer to the former in social dynamics, if you remove the racial issues in Malaysia. It’s also not demographically divided between a small oligarchic elite and masses of indigenous peasants with the occasional batch of “turco” middlemen, like Guatemala, El Salvador, etc are, thanks to immigration.

    Having said that, Mexico’s development stagnated several decades ago, for multiple reasons: most of their own making, but to be fair to them, the rise of China really, really didn’t help them. So I expect some Asian countries that are poorer now-Thailand, Vietnam-to overtake it within a decade or two.

    • Replies: @John Johnson
    @nebulafox

    For comparison, I’d say that Mexico is somewhere in between Malaysia and Thailand, development wise, poorer than the former, richer than the latter.

    They aren't close to Thailand.

    Mexico still has a huge hidden underclass. They have shanty towns and people living in boxes.

    But I agree that it isn't fair to call them third world.

    They have made a lot of improvement but still get tossed into the third world box.

    Guatemala has far more problems which is why so many of them are trying to come here.

  47. @nebulafox
    @S Johnson

    Yes, I think Tom Holland was onto something when he points to this as the beginning of something distinctive in Western civilization. This divide goes back to the Middle Ages and the papal reforms, and has its roots in the fact that Western Europe suffered a collapse in secular authority with the fall of the empire. This allowed-over the course of several centuries-the clergy to grow into a center of power that could challenge kings and emperors. This didn't happen outside the West.

    As you alluded to, you don't even need to leave Christianity to see a counterexample. In Byzantium, there was no fall, and the Roman state and secular bureaucracy kept on functioning despite undergoing catastrophes that would have put an end to most states. The emperor therefore remained the de facto head of church and state alike. As long as he didn't interfere with fundamental doctrinal matters (this did happen. Nikephoros Phokas-who was assassinated despite being the biggest hero Byzantium had seen in centuries-tried to introduce Islamic-esque conceptions of automatic martyrdom for those who died in battle, which disgusted and alienated the Orthodox clergy), the Byzantine emperor was free to do whatever they liked with the clergy. They fired patriarchs who displeased them all the time. An Orthodox analogue to Canossa would have been impossible. When Byzantium finally fell, Russia became its spiritual and ideological heir, with the Tsar uniting church and state, rather than the separation between temporal and spiritual power that developed in the Catholic world.

    Still, I do think my point stands: the Catholic clergy tended to be less alien to the peasantry in places like Spain and Poland, and the peasant brand of Catholicism was more in step with higher strata of society than in Russia, where the serfs largely lived in their own world, divorced from the state and the rest of society. There's a reason Russia's answer to the Vendee (a place where the clergy and nobility were far more embedded in local life than the rest of France and enjoyed positive relations with the peasantry) was a left-wing SR revolt, the Tambov Rebellion, prompted by alienation over secular policies that favored the cities rather than alienation from anti-religious policies.

    Replies: @S Johnson

    One of the key figures of Russian history is the Patriarch Nikon, who reformed Russian Orthodoxy in close alliance with Tsar Alexis, the second Romanov, which precipitated the split with the Old Believers which seems to loom as large in the Russian mind in the 19th century as the Reformation did for the 17th-century west Europeans. But I don’t know enough to know who was the prime mover or why controversial reforms were seen as necessary at that time.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    @S Johnson

    Nikon's eventual downfall at the hands of Tsar Alexis underlines my point. Despite the wars that went on under his reign, Tsar Alexis was a kind, shy sort of man, renowned for his piety-which by all accounts, was genuine. Unlike his son, he wasn't the kind of guy who would depose patriarchs or kill people-even relations-casually in the pursuit of power. But he nevertheless did. That speaks volumes about the Tsar-Church relationship, even before the reforms.

    >But I don’t know enough to know who was the prime mover or why controversial reforms were seen as necessary at that time.

    Until a few centuries ago, it was taken for granted by every culture on the planet that the divine played a non-casual role in human affairs-which was an entirely rational thing to believe given their life experiences. Winning God's favor was important. In this, the 1600s had more psychological continuity with the ancient and medieval worlds than it does with us.

    Western Europe had only recently torn itself apart over confessional differences in the Thirty Year's War.

  48. @obwandiyag
    Christmas is popular because of the innate greed of human beings.

    Whoopdedo.

    Replies: @Old Prude

    Oh, toss oby-wan. Christmas is about love. The presents are merely corporal expressions there-of.

  49. The Feathered Serpent was a prominent supernatural entity or deity, found in many Mesoamerican religions. It was called Quetzalcoatl among the Aztecs …

    Okay, how do the reindeer react when being flown around in a flying sled by a feathered snake? Aren’t deer afraid of snakes (or “serpents” as Q likes to be called)?

    Does he have feathers so even as a snake, he can fly up the chimney after he’s had the cocoa?

    How do the kids sit in Q’s lap to ask for presents at the mall? Do serpents have laps? Does he hiss or just talk?

    So many theological issues with this one.

    But really, the main reason why Quetchamacallhim didn’t catch on was that about half of the male Mexican population was already named Jesus. And no one can spell Quetzalcoatl correctly, much less pronounce it.

    Señor , we thought about changing over, but we couldn’t get the lyrics to scan when singing our favorite carol “What a friend we have in Quetzalcoatl.”

    • Replies: @JMcG
    @Muggles

    Quetchamacallhim is what I’ll call the feathered snake from now on- it’s perfect.

  50. @Muggles

    The Feathered Serpent was a prominent supernatural entity or deity, found in many Mesoamerican religions. It was called Quetzalcoatl among the Aztecs …
     
    Okay, how do the reindeer react when being flown around in a flying sled by a feathered snake? Aren't deer afraid of snakes (or "serpents" as Q likes to be called)?

    Does he have feathers so even as a snake, he can fly up the chimney after he's had the cocoa?

    How do the kids sit in Q's lap to ask for presents at the mall? Do serpents have laps? Does he hiss or just talk?

    So many theological issues with this one.

    But really, the main reason why Quetchamacallhim didn't catch on was that about half of the male Mexican population was already named Jesus. And no one can spell Quetzalcoatl correctly, much less pronounce it.

    Señor , we thought about changing over, but we couldn't get the lyrics to scan when singing our favorite carol "What a friend we have in Quetzalcoatl."

    Replies: @JMcG

    Quetchamacallhim is what I’ll call the feathered snake from now on- it’s perfect.

  51. @mc23
    The 2012 movie The Greater Glory was about the Cristero uprising, an old style Hollywood type epic. I think it did okay with audiences but not so well with critics.

    One critic called it more educational the involving. Roger Ebert said "it is well-made, yes, but has such pro-Catholic tunnel vision I began to question its view of events." I guess sorta along the lines of that movie Exodus.

    What I took away from the movie way that it was a Paean to the heroism and dedication of not so distant family now almost forgotten and airbrushed from history.

    Interestingly The Kights of Columbus in America raised a lot of money for the Cristeros.

    Replies: @Hibernian, @nebulafox, @Alden

    I saw it in TV. It was good. Especially the beginning with. people talking about “ we have to do something”. Mexico didn’t legalize Catholicism again until the 1990s.

  52. @Anon
    @Alden

    …. One reason Triple A was founded. Amateur KKK patrols stopped cars and searched for alcohol…..

    Enquiring minds want to know more

    Replies: @Alden

    I read about it in a book about the downfall of the KKK in Indiana. I just googled KKK prohibition and 3 pages came up. KKK was very big in the anti saloon league. The anti salon league was the group led by a man that really got prohibition passed.

  53. @JMcG
    @nebulafox

    Franco was one of the towering figures of the 20th Century. Smashed the commies, refused to be drawn into WWII by the Nazis. Kept the peace after a very bloody civil war for 40 years. He’s never received his due, no more than Pinochet has.

    Replies: @Alden

    Franco was the greatest man of the 20th century. Just as Ferdinand and Isabella were the greatest sovereigns of the late medieval period.

    The following statement is not pro catholic. It’s just the absolute truth.

    Were not for the Popes from 650AD to 1800 AD Europe would be as Muslim as Turkey and the Arab countries are. Our European White peoples western civilization would not exist.

  54. You tube doesn’t have the complete movie for greater glory. But there’s about 15 clip and trailers, 20 minutes discussions of the persecution of Catholics, newsreels interviews with survivors. Very good explanations of the event. So many Mex Americans gr gr grandparents came north of the border during that civil war anarchy bandito mess that lasted 1910 to 1940.

    • Replies: @Joe Stalin
    @Alden

    https://movies2watch.tv/watch-movie/watch-for-greater-glory-the-true-story-of-cristiada-hd-15884.5354215

  55. @Charlotte Allen
    For Greater Glory (2012) is a wonderful movie that was hated by the critics because it was unabashedly pro-Christian in the way that Hollywood movies used to be (Quo Vadis, El Cid). The cristeros did a pretty good job holding their own against the federales, and the Mexican government's 20-year war against the Catholic Church produced many martyrs.

    As for Quetzalcoatl, far from being an invention of the Spaniards, the plumed serpent was a deity represented in the iconography of numerous Mexican and Mesoamerican cultures dating back hundreds of years before the Conquest.

    Replies: @Alden

    Favorite name for girls was Ninel Lenin spelled backwards.

  56. The irony is that Quetzalcoatl is probably a representation of Viking explorers to Aztec lands. Possibly Leif Ericson.

  57. @JMcG
    @nebulafox

    It’s hard to explain how quickly Ireland has moved from arguably the most Catholic country in Europe to almost totally post-religious. The Catholic faith in rural Ireland always seemed wilder and less tamed than here in the States. The roadside shrines and holy wells etc. seemed much of a piece with the dolmens and standing stones. There were always people that were thought to have cures for various ailments. Many of the women of Ireland, including my mother, adored the priests. Many of the men, like my father, held them in contempt.

    Replies: @LondonBob, @Anon

    Ireland is now a subsidiary of US tech, the new faith is more ruthless than the last.

    • Replies: @JMcG
    @LondonBob

    100% correct. Google and Microsoft are the new religions.

  58. @S Johnson
    @nebulafox

    One of the key figures of Russian history is the Patriarch Nikon, who reformed Russian Orthodoxy in close alliance with Tsar Alexis, the second Romanov, which precipitated the split with the Old Believers which seems to loom as large in the Russian mind in the 19th century as the Reformation did for the 17th-century west Europeans. But I don't know enough to know who was the prime mover or why controversial reforms were seen as necessary at that time.

    Replies: @nebulafox

    Nikon’s eventual downfall at the hands of Tsar Alexis underlines my point. Despite the wars that went on under his reign, Tsar Alexis was a kind, shy sort of man, renowned for his piety-which by all accounts, was genuine. Unlike his son, he wasn’t the kind of guy who would depose patriarchs or kill people-even relations-casually in the pursuit of power. But he nevertheless did. That speaks volumes about the Tsar-Church relationship, even before the reforms.

    >But I don’t know enough to know who was the prime mover or why controversial reforms were seen as necessary at that time.

    Until a few centuries ago, it was taken for granted by every culture on the planet that the divine played a non-casual role in human affairs-which was an entirely rational thing to believe given their life experiences. Winning God’s favor was important. In this, the 1600s had more psychological continuity with the ancient and medieval worlds than it does with us.

    Western Europe had only recently torn itself apart over confessional differences in the Thirty Year’s War.

  59. @Dutch Boy
    @Reg Cæsar

    The peace that was brokered by the Catholic Church and the USA was followed by the assassinations of the Cristero leaders by the Mexican government. Something of a non-peace peace.

    Replies: @Dan Hayes

    When I told a traditionalist RC priest that the American bishops sold out the Cristero leaders, his devastating response was “Why are you surprised?”.

  60. @JMcG
    @epebble

    Ireland now celebrates Black Friday without even having Thanksgiving. Same day as in the USA. Black Friday is disgusting.

    Replies: @Corn

    I have a Finnish friend who reported to me Finnish stores hold Black Friday sales. Insane.

    • Agree: JMcG
  61. @Alden
    You tube doesn’t have the complete movie for greater glory. But there’s about 15 clip and trailers, 20 minutes discussions of the persecution of Catholics, newsreels interviews with survivors. Very good explanations of the event. So many Mex Americans gr gr grandparents came north of the border during that civil war anarchy bandito mess that lasted 1910 to 1940.

    Replies: @Joe Stalin

  62. @nebulafox
    @Yngvar

    Mexico has many problems, but it is not a third world country. It's not an absurdly rich country like the United States or Canada is, but it's not a poor, undeveloped one either. On global standards, they are basically middle to upper middle class. For comparison, I'd say that Mexico is somewhere in between Malaysia and Thailand, development wise, poorer than the former, richer than the latter. It is closer to the latter in practical wealth (especially if you ignore Bangkok) but closer to the former in social dynamics, if you remove the racial issues in Malaysia. It's also not demographically divided between a small oligarchic elite and masses of indigenous peasants with the occasional batch of "turco" middlemen, like Guatemala, El Salvador, etc are, thanks to immigration.

    Having said that, Mexico's development stagnated several decades ago, for multiple reasons: most of their own making, but to be fair to them, the rise of China really, really didn't help them. So I expect some Asian countries that are poorer now-Thailand, Vietnam-to overtake it within a decade or two.

    Replies: @John Johnson

    For comparison, I’d say that Mexico is somewhere in between Malaysia and Thailand, development wise, poorer than the former, richer than the latter.

    They aren’t close to Thailand.

    Mexico still has a huge hidden underclass. They have shanty towns and people living in boxes.

    But I agree that it isn’t fair to call them third world.

    They have made a lot of improvement but still get tossed into the third world box.

    Guatemala has far more problems which is why so many of them are trying to come here.

  63. A great new animated cartoon for Christmas: “Santa and the Feathered Serpent”. At the end a flying Quetzalcoatl replaces Rudolph and the whole gang of reindeer who have been shot and eaten due to rising food prices.

  64. @LondonBob
    @JMcG

    Ireland is now a subsidiary of US tech, the new faith is more ruthless than the last.

    Replies: @JMcG

    100% correct. Google and Microsoft are the new religions.

  65. Anon[287] • Disclaimer says:
    @JMcG
    @nebulafox

    It’s hard to explain how quickly Ireland has moved from arguably the most Catholic country in Europe to almost totally post-religious. The Catholic faith in rural Ireland always seemed wilder and less tamed than here in the States. The roadside shrines and holy wells etc. seemed much of a piece with the dolmens and standing stones. There were always people that were thought to have cures for various ailments. Many of the women of Ireland, including my mother, adored the priests. Many of the men, like my father, held them in contempt.

    Replies: @LondonBob, @Anon

    Ireland’s birth rate, including the third world immigrants, is less than 2 per woman. Catholicism seems pretty faded out. But as they are allowed to send anyone who is unemployed here to the US anyway, maybe some of us can go there. Seems fair. Their GDP per capita is far higher than our’s now. Can we send some of our unemployed to Dublin? Or does it work only the one way?

    • Replies: @JMcG
    @Anon

    We are always told that we here in the US, are part of a nation of immigrants, and are therefore duty- bound to continue as such. In Ireland, the bien-pensants, led by the execrable Allan Shatter, have declared that, as a nation of emigrants, they are now duty-bound to become a nation of immigrants.
    Conveniently.

  66. @Anon
    @JMcG

    Ireland’s birth rate, including the third world immigrants, is less than 2 per woman. Catholicism seems pretty faded out. But as they are allowed to send anyone who is unemployed here to the US anyway, maybe some of us can go there. Seems fair. Their GDP per capita is far higher than our’s now. Can we send some of our unemployed to Dublin? Or does it work only the one way?

    Replies: @JMcG

    We are always told that we here in the US, are part of a nation of immigrants, and are therefore duty- bound to continue as such. In Ireland, the bien-pensants, led by the execrable Allan Shatter, have declared that, as a nation of emigrants, they are now duty-bound to become a nation of immigrants.
    Conveniently.

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