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From the Los Angeles Times:
Will UC schools drop their SAT scores requirement?
By TERESA WATANABE STAFF WRITER
OCT. 2, 2019 5 AMHalf a century ago, the University of California helped catapult the SAT to a place of national prominence in the college admissions process when it began requiring all applicants to take the test and report their score.
Now the UC system, by its sheer size and influence as the nation’s premier public research university, is again poised to play an outsize role in the future of standardized testing in America as its leaders consider whether to drop both the SAT and ACT as an admissions requirement.
Although the standardized tests are predictive of college performance, particularly at selective universities, they are increasingly seen as an unfair admission barrier to students who don’t test well or don’t have the means to access or pay for pricey test preparation. Decades of research has shown that scores are strongly influenced by family income, parents’ education and race.
The looming question is how UC officials will move to address the clearly documented flaws of the test. If they choose to throw out the SAT and the ACT, another popular test, will they find a better replacement? …
UC regents are not expected to make a decision until next year. But an extraordinary and unscripted exchange about 2 hours and 25 minutes into a recent meeting revealed the enormous stakes, deep passions and growing impatience surrounding the issue.
UC Academic Senate members, to whom the regents long ago delegated authority to set admissions criteria, launched a study this year on whether to continue requiring standardized testing.
Board of Regents Chairman John A. Pérez startled meeting participants when he asked the UC general counsel whether regents were required to wait for the senate to finish its review before deciding the issue. Vice Chairwoman Cecilia Estolano followed his question by declaring that tests use a “clearly flawed methodology that has a discriminatory impact” and suggested a possible time limit on the faculty study.
“We don’t need any more studies,” she said.
Regent Eloy Ortiz Oakley said the issue was urgent, as “millions” of students would take the test and spend substantial sums on test preparation while regents delayed action. Pérez noted that even though nonprofits such as Khan Academy offer free online test preparation, only 3% of students at some underserved schools have regular access to the internet.
Perez, Estolano, and Ortiz Oakley don’t like objective tests.
On the other side, Regent George Kieffer said he was concerned that if UC eliminated the SAT, the university system could be pressed in a few years to use another test to gauge student performance.
Napolitano cautioned the board to let the faculty finish its work without an “arbitrary timeline.” And Academic Senate Chairwoman Kum-Kum Bhavnani said any decision needed to be well-grounded in research to stand up to the reaction it will unleash.
… One possible alternative: using Smarter Balanced, a test used in California and more than a dozen other states to assess how well K-12 students have mastered English and math skills required by standards known as Common Core.
Smarter Balanced tests predicted first-year college grades as well as SAT exams for UC and California State University students with less bias against disadvantaged students, said Michal Kurlaender, a UC Davis education professor who co-authored a March study on the question and made a presentation to a UC faculty group. Another advantage, she said, is that all students already take the Smarter Balanced test during school hours at state expense.
But The Gap is much the same. Here are the 2019 results from California on the Standard Balance test:
It is unclear, however, whether student performance on Smarter Balanced would change if it turned into a high-stakes college admission test, and such a sea change in UC testing policy would require much advance planning.
In other words, Asians don’t prep much for this low-stakes test at present.
Other options include keeping standardized tests but controlling for the socioeconomic effects on scores. Zachary Bleemer, a research associate at UC Berkeley’s Center for Studies in Higher Education, said UC already effectively does that by admitting some less advantaged students with lower test scores than more advantaged peers.
UC San Diego, for instance, admitted African Americans, Mexican Americans and low-income students with average SAT scores about 300 points lower than Asian Americans, whites and high-income students for fall 2016. First-generation students were admitted with scores about 200 points lower than those whose parents attended college.
Although California’s Proposition 209 banned the use of race or ethnicity in admissions decisions, schools may evaluate test scores in the context of other factors, including an applicant’s family income and high school quality. UC considers 14 factors in its admissions decisions.
Kurlaender’s study and several others have found that high school GPA is the single strongest predictor of college success with the lowest negative effect on students who are low-income, underrepresented minorities or the first in their families to attend college.
But some educators are wary that going test-optional would spark even more grade inflation as high school teachers could be pressured to award more As.
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Lisa Leslie earned a 4.0 GPA at Morningside HS in Inglewood, CA, but did not score high enough on her first two tries at the SAT to gain admittance to USC. She finally got 700+ on her third try. She blamed MHS for not preparing her properly. I bet she loved getting straight A’s, though.
When she graduated high school in 1990, Morningside was 64 percent black and 34 percent Hispanic, according to Schooldigger. Pre-No Child Left Behind, I imagine that nothing close to teaching or learning took place in that school.Replies: @Jack D, @Alan Mercer, @Laurence Whelk, @Ed
“only 3% of students at some underserved schools have regular access to the internet.”
Only 3% have smartphones?!
The idea that students are going to log out of black Twitter or Worldstar Hip Hop and use their personal smart phones to test-prep at Khan Academy is totally LOL.
My opinion; UC is looking at the public, not private K-12 schools stats and are worried about what will happen when there are no more White, but an overwhelmingly 85 IQ Hispanic Indian applicant pool.
Our test scores plunged from the top 10 to bottom in about 20 years, 1960 to 1980.
It’s hard to believe, but in the 50’s and 60’s NSA in Mountain View recruited on the basis of the wonderful California lifestyle especially the excellent public school system.
I can’t believe it’s not Smart Balance!
There’s huge pressure for quotas and race norming in a diverse society.
Your coddled morons yearning to be surgeons
Free of charge
Or ability.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH7KYmGnj40
Political allocation of all the goodies is to be expected. Only in unitary nation can you hope to keep that it bay under some sort of notion of "meritocracy". In a diverse society ... fuggetaboutit.
I have no crystal ball to tell how this particular battle will play out. If all else was equal you'd bet on the more numerous "Hispanics". But the Mexicans care way, way less about education than the Asians, and the Hispanic "leaders" might think keeping a high reputation for the schools with a Mexican quota that makes sure *their* kids get in is just peachy. A reasonable deal might involve fatter Mexican quotas for the government jobs in return for larger Asian presence in the universities.
But the bottom line here is with diversity in a democracy ethnic political allocation is a given.
Steve,
Is it too much to expect that North East Asians will realize that it’s not in their self-interests to be part & parcel of the SJW coalition? These are pragmatic people so pragmatism alone should cause them to break off.
Anything that disadvantages Whites is a win for them.
No, they are given agency by the jews, and this agency is used to steal resources from white people.
On some level the non-whites understand the process better than whites do.Replies: @Dan Hayes
The Northeast Asians know that in the eyes of the KKK, Neo-Nazi movement, alt-right, and white nationalists, they are in the same category as Blacks and Hispanics.Replies: @bomag, @BenKenobi, @El Dato, @jbwilson24
When are these schools gonna be forced to bite the bullet and design their own tests which they can manipulate as they please; with the results being on them?
What allows dopey judges to spin around in circles about diversity is this rotten idea that these people who hold certification powers are beyond any reproach. And they are beyond reproach in part because they place the burdens of rejection on standardized testing to take the criticism, they place it on students (capable or otherwise) to jump through all sorts of hoops, and they wish to place even more of it on largely incapable high school teachers.
Counterinsurgency
When did star jocks with low test scores stop going to junior college? E.g., O.J. Simpson and Mark Harmon went to junior college before transferring to USC and UCLA respectively.
OJ Simpson's Wiki page says that he had mediocre high school grades, thus he did not attract much attention from recruiters. I don't know why his grades would matter since, as far as I know, there were no NCAA academic standards for incoming freshmen until 1987's Prop 48 which required a 700 combined SAT for freshmen to be eligible to play, otherwise they would have to redshirt a year like Junior Seau who scored 690 combined on the SAT. However, Simpson's day was before big TV contracts and high coaching salaries, so stakes were much lower and I guess no one needed him that bad. Mark Harmon attended Harvard-Westlake so academics shouldn't have been a problem for him.
Eric Swann played 10 seasons in the NFL. I believe he has some severe learning disablity. He took the SAT multiple times but couldn't break 700. NC State didn't try to redshirt him (probably due to a scholarship limit), but instead had Swann enroll in a nearby community college and take classes part-time at NC State - a recipe for disaster in my opinion. Swann left community college in 1990 without ever playing football to play semi-pro ball for "$5/hour" and was drafted in the first round of the 1991 NFL draft, number 6 overall, by the Cardinals.
https://www.athleticscholarships.net/academic-requirements.htm#d1d2slidingscale
The problem is clear if you simply note the names of the UC administrators. We are doomed.
Is it too much to expect that North East Asians will realize that it's not in their self-interests to be part & parcel of the SJW coalition? These are pragmatic people so pragmatism alone should cause them to break off.Replies: @anon, @Kronos, @Robert Dolan, @bomag, @Anonymous, @An, @ATBOTL, @Fun
North East Asians are competing against Whites.
Anything that disadvantages Whites is a win for them.
If Mexicans can’t come up with the money to take the SAT, how the heck are they going to pay for college?
Pay for something? What an idea!
Is it too much to expect that North East Asians will realize that it's not in their self-interests to be part & parcel of the SJW coalition? These are pragmatic people so pragmatism alone should cause them to break off.Replies: @anon, @Kronos, @Robert Dolan, @bomag, @Anonymous, @An, @ATBOTL, @Fun
But the live in the most liberal cities of the US. They really don’t want to become a “honorary” white.
"self-interest" YES
An example of NE Asian pragmatic self-interest in the largest US city would be their insurrection against Mayor de Blasio's ill-fated attempt to destroy NYC's mostly Asian prestigious high schools.Replies: @bomag, @Dave3, @Kronos, @bigdicknick
Maybe when ex-Georgetown Men’s BB Coach John Thompson lost his ever loving mind over Proposition 48 which wanted to make non-qualifying athletes sit out their Freshman seasons. Schools have figured out ways to squeeze in guys that would have had to go to a JC first. Although, the school I root for, Ohio State, has gotten contributions from JC transfers in FB and BB over the last 10-12 years.
Vice Chairwoman Cecilia Estolano said, “We don’t need any more studies.”
Shouldn’t that be, “We don’t need no stinking’ studies!”?
“honorary” NO
“self-interest” YES
An example of NE Asian pragmatic self-interest in the largest US city would be their insurrection against Mayor de Blasio’s ill-fated attempt to destroy NYC’s mostly Asian prestigious high schools.
They will likely be the high skilled servants of whichever group is most powerful in a society.Replies: @Autochthon
OT: California has really done it now. A new law caps the amount of work a freelance journalist can do. “If a freelance journalist writes for a magazine, newspaper or other entity whose central mission is to disseminate the news, the law says, that journalist is capped at writing 35 “submissions” per year per “putative employer.”
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/everybody-is-freaking-freelance-writers-scramble-make-sense-new-california-law-1248195
Apparently this is an underhanded lefty attempt to preserve jobs for its protected media pets as journalist jobs disappear. Otherwise, the left is terrified that it might lose its voice and its ability to control the narrative.
But leftists themselves are complaining about the law, because it has been noticed that women and POC tend to be freelancers instead of full-time employees at newspapers.
“Oft does evil hurt itself.” –Tolkien.
No they have not. They have sometimes indicated correlations.
Reading the MSM in today’s America is much like interpreting Pravda in the days of yore. Various assertions might as well be preceded by “As is well known…”
We clearly need a test that an actual Barbie Doll can pass.
https://youtu.be/BK4Acc8jbt4
(Also it’s really scary I remember this nearly 20 years onward.)Replies: @The Alarmist
OT, but a new topic idea … Is the Army preparing for the next civil war?
https://www.zerohedge.com/technology/army-building-cannon-capable-firing-nashville-nyc
At last, someone serious stands up for the children of poor, high school dropout blacks, Hispanics, and American Indians.
What allows dopey judges to spin around in circles about diversity is this rotten idea that these people who hold certification powers are beyond any reproach. And they are beyond reproach in part because they place the burdens of rejection on standardized testing to take the criticism, they place it on students (capable or otherwise) to jump through all sorts of hoops, and they wish to place even more of it on largely incapable high school teachers.Replies: @Counterinsurgency
When the political tactic of designating the enemies (POC) of your enemies (non-liberal Whites) as a moral cause is generally seen as profoundly immoral, your proposal could be accepted.
Counterinsurgency
“…. Only 3% of students …. have internet access….”.
What utter utter rot!!!
As my own lying eyes tell me every raggedy-assed bum – and his brother – has got an iPhone.
Only 3% have smartphones?!Replies: @Anonymous, @Oleaginous Outrager, @Anon, @mmack, @bigdicknick, @Alden, @HammerJack
Also, public libraries generally offer virtually unlimited free internet use to anyone with a membership card.
America has an “Asian problem”. It is the fastest rising population and it seems that their per capita achievement is also rising. This pressure is making itself felt at Harvard, UC and many other elite institutions.
Sooner or later the ruling class will have to make a choice: either it systematically disempowers white people or it shuts out a larger and larger share of Asians.
The most fair option: allowing true meritocracy, is not going to be allowed. Because that would set back black/brown diversity 50+ years in elite institutions.
10 years ago the answer would have been obvious: just cut the white percentage. But the ruling class is terrified of rising white consciousness. This could be a spark to a much wider conflagration. Something’s gotta give. I doubt Asians will just sit pretty and watch forever.
That choice has already been made. The Jewish ruling class has chosen Asians over whites. This can’t happen overnight, but you see signs of it everywhere you look.
How about white kids? — who supports, or even talks about, them and their interests?
The looming question is how UC officials will move to address the clearly documented flaws of the test.
What exactly are those “clearly documented flaws”?
Although the standardized tests are predictive of college performance, particularly at selective universities, …
That sounds like a feature, not a bug.
… they are increasingly seen as an unfair admission barrier to students who don’t test well or don’t have the means to access or pay for pricey test preparation.
As recently as a couple of college kid generations ago, about the only SAT prep anyone did was normal HS vocabulary exercises.
Decades of research has shown that scores are strongly influenced by family income, parents’ education and race.
Yes, “research”; these findings must be unimpeachable then; not to be challenged — and which one of those factors is the most important/predictive? — as I recall, the average white plumber’s kid, neither of whose parents went to college, scores higher on the SAT than the average black doctor’s kid, both of whose parents have post grad degrees.
Most people don’t need to do a lot of “research”, certainly not “decades” worth, to see this for what it is: a ploy to use de jure support for affirmative action, recently confirmed in the Harvard case, to get more low achieving Hispanics into UC.
Not that I have much sympathy for Asians, who have, more than any other group, turned college aptitude testing into a high stakes, high pressure, stressful nightmare for all of these young kids.
My sympathy lies entirely with white kids (you know, Americans), who are already under-represented in the UC system — they get little/no attention, and have virtually no organized support, which is one reason their parents resorted to Singer shenanigans.
The rest of them can fuck off.
PS I remember the Barron's books as not being very good in the '70s. In those days the SAT did not release old tests. Writing a proper practice SAT is not as easy as it looks. The College Board puts a lot of work into its tests.Replies: @eah, @Neil Templeton, @dr kill
Full disclosure: This was at a 90% White student body (some Chinese and Indian students who were children of Doctors or Engineers, very few Diverse or ¡Vibrant! students at all) High School in the far southwestern Chicago suburbs. I’m sure the student body has become more Diverse or ¡Vibrant! In the ensuing decades.Replies: @Hodag, @eah
Prior to 1972, football and basketball players could not play on college varsity teams. Junior college was an opportunity to mature physically, increase skill sets, and have a better selection of Division I colleges to choose from than directly from high school.
OJ Simpson’s Wiki page says that he had mediocre high school grades, thus he did not attract much attention from recruiters. I don’t know why his grades would matter since, as far as I know, there were no NCAA academic standards for incoming freshmen until 1987’s Prop 48 which required a 700 combined SAT for freshmen to be eligible to play, otherwise they would have to redshirt a year like Junior Seau who scored 690 combined on the SAT. However, Simpson’s day was before big TV contracts and high coaching salaries, so stakes were much lower and I guess no one needed him that bad. Mark Harmon attended Harvard-Westlake so academics shouldn’t have been a problem for him.
What utter utter rot!!!
As my own lying eyes tell me every raggedy-assed bum - and his brother - has got an iPhone.Replies: @Steve Sailer
When is this statistic from? 1997?
A nice piece on standardized testing in City Journal earlier this week … by a couple of Asian-American academics:
https://www.city-journal.org/standardized-tests
Why are Filipinos separated out from other Asians?
Reminds me of how British statistics had categories for "white" and "Irish."Replies: @Ray Huffman
Fair skin part Chinese tan skin pure Malay is an easy way to tell.Replies: @nebulafox
Interesting that East and South Asians are not generally separated out. They look different, but both do well. Though East Asians, more so.
Does being Filipino gain points in college admissions?
An aside: About 25 yrs ago in construction/contracting my company was told we needed to subcontract for a large project at a Pharma company. We needed to work through a company owned by an Indian (South Asian). The Pharma company needed to show X amount of dollars of the project was going to minority contractors. End result: We billed through the Indian owned company which then marked up our pricing. They did nothing for what they earned on this other than act as the middleman for the billing. The Pharma company paid more for the work, but got to look like a good corporate citizen that could say they used minority contractors. I became a Libertarian after this.Replies: @anon, @Justvisiting
Because they were in my age range, I followed college basketball and football players in the 1980s and pros in the 1990s. I can’t think of many stars on the level of Simpson or Harmon who first attended junior college straight out of high school. Stars like Shawn Kemp and John Starks who enrolled in junior college did so after getting into legal/criminal trouble at their four-year university. The same happened with Cam Newton two decades later. (Kemp never played college ball.)
Eric Swann played 10 seasons in the NFL. I believe he has some severe learning disablity. He took the SAT multiple times but couldn’t break 700. NC State didn’t try to redshirt him (probably due to a scholarship limit), but instead had Swann enroll in a nearby community college and take classes part-time at NC State – a recipe for disaster in my opinion. Swann left community college in 1990 without ever playing football to play semi-pro ball for “$5/hour” and was drafted in the first round of the 1991 NFL draft, number 6 overall, by the Cardinals.
OT: President of iSteve favorite country Niger gave an interview about African demographics:
Niger’s president blames explosive birth rate on ‘a misreading of Islam’
Shouldn't that be, "We don't need no stinking' studies!"?Replies: @Steve Sailer
Maybe she’s a lesbian who in Steve’s photo was trying to look butch.
Or maybe she’s transitioning.
If anything this seems more susceptible to test prepping since it sounds less g-loaded than the SAT.
The section I bolded in isolation is pretty funny, and I think reflects what test foes are really thinking.
Where did they get the number 300 from? I’ve read research that puts test prep advantage at 20 points or so. Maybe that is off, but is it off by an order of magnitude?
The should just use standardized testing plus overt racial quotas. Fill the white quota with the top white students, the black quota with the top black students, and so on. Or get more granular: The Jewish quota, the gentile quota, the slave descendants quota, the recent immigrant black quota ….
At historically black colleges and universities, don’t they mostly choose black freshmen by their standardized test scores?
Using grade point averages is really dangerous, and I’d like to see that research and whether it has been carefully replicated. I am always reminded of the legendary mentally retarded valedictorian of L.A.’s Jeffefrson High, Kashawn Campbell who ended up at UC Berkeley in 2012:
South L.A. student finds a different world at UC Berkeley
Kashawn Campbell overcame many obstacles to become a straight-A student. But his freshman year at Berkeley shook him to the core.
https://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-c1-cal-freshmen-20130816-dto-htmlstory.html
Straight As in high school to a kid whose brain was deprived of oxygen during delivery.
When I was interning with a rural survey crew one summer, one of the crew members announced proudly that "Ed there, graduated as valedictorian of his high school class" while pointing to another guy who blushed and gave an "Aw shucks". This somewhat surprised me because although I thought Ed was a great guy and a really pleasant companion, I'd never been overawed by his erudition. I experienced a moment's confusion and it showed on my face, even though I tried to cover for it with a polite response.
"Course, he attended a one-room school house and was the only member of his graduating class" added the first guy, to the merriment of all.
Those country boys are a little cleverer than we city slickers give them credit for.
Ultimately, setting quotas and publishing 25th to 75th percentiles for GPA/SAT for each quota group will help the minorities they claim they are desperate to recruit. As it stands, there are still black and hispanic kids who don't apply for schools they can get into because their scores are well below the 25th percentile scores for admits the schools publish. Crazy as it may sound, not every single black student understands they are a viable admit to a school even with an SAT score 300 points below average.
And everyone else would know what they have to compete with in their lane.
Because of the South China Sea?
“Now on to the next item, the proposal for putting term limits on public office. All those in favor say, ‘I have sex with animals.’ ” –Mayor Joe Quimby of Springfield
https://ipolitics.ca/2013/05/17/who-said-it-rob-ford-or-diamond-joe-quimby/
Isn’t “standard nearly met” just another way of saying “standard not met”?
Keyshawn Johnson went to West LA JC before transferring to USC. That was what? Early/mid 90’s?
Fancy Asians v. Jungle Asians
BRING BACK THE 1883 CHINESE LEGAL IMMIGRANT EXCLUSION!!!
GOD BLESS DENIS KEARNEY……GOD BLESS SAMUEL GOMPERS…..
Is it too much to expect that North East Asians will realize that it's not in their self-interests to be part & parcel of the SJW coalition? These are pragmatic people so pragmatism alone should cause them to break off.Replies: @anon, @Kronos, @Robert Dolan, @bomag, @Anonymous, @An, @ATBOTL, @Fun
People keep saying that asians (and mexicans) are “natural conservatives.”
No, they are given agency by the jews, and this agency is used to steal resources from white people.
On some level the non-whites understand the process better than whites do.
The NE Asians are not "natural conservatives" but could, under proper circumstances, become "self-interested conservatives".
If the orange and yellow portions were combined into one solid color, racial equality would immediately become an untenable position. And we cant have that now, can we.
Thanks. I did not know that about Lisa Leslie. She graduated from USC with a degree in communications and received an MBA from the University of Phoenix. Assuming she did her own work, she is at least average in intelligence. She married a pilot who her friends set her up with and he appears to adore her. The only strange behavior I have seen from her was during the Opening Ceremonies of the 1996 Olympics when she kept trying to hold Karl Malone’s hand. Malone, married since 1990 to a former Miss Idaho USA, kept jerking his hand away.
When she graduated high school in 1990, Morningside was 64 percent black and 34 percent Hispanic, according to Schooldigger. Pre-No Child Left Behind, I imagine that nothing close to teaching or learning took place in that school.
I have an idea - we could set up separate universities for people with lower intelligence. That way, instead of forcing bright Asians and whites to endure a slower pace and less advanced material, each group could be taught at its own level. We could call these alternative schools "Hysterically Black Colleges and Universities" - something like that.Replies: @Triumph104, @El Dato
Magic Dirt, if ever there was.
"We have books that the school was using years ago. It’s kind of unfair, because we’re not all provided with the same materials.”
Yes, the Inglewood texts are not up to date on innovations in language and math that the SAT covers. Like algebra, and the definition of recalcitrant. That's how we keep them down.
But seriously, I've known a number of young K-12 teachers who, just beginning their careers, would jump at the chance to serve where they are desperately needed, and further have an inexplicable affinity for culturally "vibrant" urban districts. The only turnoffs, it turns out, is the constant resentment and fear of violence.
That is, I'm sure the teachers at Morningside are inferior. Maybe Morningside would have better teachers if it wasn't the least desirable place to teach. It would be more desirable to teach there if not for the constant threat of bodily harm inside and nearby the campus, and the rank ingratitude of the student body.
If the SAT only covered the tiny bit of information the typical black student is taught in public school, then the test would be 12 minutes long, the Lisa Leslies would get their 750s, and every Asian student would get a 1600 without spending a dime on test prep.
Implicit in Ms. Lesbie's complaints are that the problems in black schools are caused by and must be redressed by someone not black and someone(s) outside the particular black school district. Never accept responsibility. Never.
https://www.latimes.com/local/education/la-me-edu-college-cheating-scandal-damion-20190322-story.html
He is attending UC Davis
https://achieve.lausd.net/site/Default.aspx?PageType=3&DomainID=1121&PageID=15789&ViewID=dedccd34-7c24-4af2-812a-33c0075398bc&FlexDataID=77173
Is it too much to expect that North East Asians will realize that it's not in their self-interests to be part & parcel of the SJW coalition? These are pragmatic people so pragmatism alone should cause them to break off.Replies: @anon, @Kronos, @Robert Dolan, @bomag, @Anonymous, @An, @ATBOTL, @Fun
Few of any group have a long term self-interest in SJWism; most are riding the tiger and plan on others being eaten before themselves.
Is it too much to expect that North East Asians will realize that it's not in their self-interests to be part & parcel of the SJW coalition? These are pragmatic people so pragmatism alone should cause them to break off.Replies: @anon, @Kronos, @Robert Dolan, @bomag, @Anonymous, @An, @ATBOTL, @Fun
It’s also not in their self-interests to be against the SJW coalition. You’re forgetting that white nationalism and the alt-right are specifically to promote an all-white nation, or all-white world.
The Northeast Asians know that in the eyes of the KKK, Neo-Nazi movement, alt-right, and white nationalists, they are in the same category as Blacks and Hispanics.
The Alt-Right wants to face reality in terms of race and ethnicity; live with and take care of those already in the country.
SJWs have shown themselves to be race replacers par excellence, and Asians may wish they chose differently when the SJWs start throwing them overboard to make way for the future African tsunami.Replies: @ATBOTL
Provide a citation, you buffoon.
I can't think of one white nationalist who wants an 'all white world'. Apparently you are too dense to see the difference between "a country for my people" and "all countries for my people".
Even Hitler admired the Chinese and Japanese, saying that the history of their civilizations was superior to Germany's.
If you don’t think the world is getting warmer, destroy the thermometers. After all, how hot you feel is a very complicated thing that cannot be captured by a single number.
"self-interest" YES
An example of NE Asian pragmatic self-interest in the largest US city would be their insurrection against Mayor de Blasio's ill-fated attempt to destroy NYC's mostly Asian prestigious high schools.Replies: @bomag, @Dave3, @Kronos, @bigdicknick
This illustrates the point: they’re happy to vote for de Blasio and his Progressive agenda, while working around the rules for themselves; or targeting particular changes, such as this school plan.
Only 3% have smartphones?!Replies: @Anonymous, @Oleaginous Outrager, @Anon, @mmack, @bigdicknick, @Alden, @HammerJack
It’s just one letter separating “underserved” from “undeserved”.
The should just use standardized testing plus overt racial quotas. Fill the white quota with the top white students, the black quota with the top black students, and so on. Or get more granular: The Jewish quota, the gentile quota, the slave descendants quota, the recent immigrant black quota ....
At historically black colleges and universities, don't they mostly choose black freshmen by their standardized test scores?
Using grade point averages is really dangerous, and I'd like to see that research and whether it has been carefully replicated. I am always reminded of the legendary mentally retarded valedictorian of L.A.'s Jeffefrson High, Kashawn Campbell who ended up at UC Berkeley in 2012:
South L.A. student finds a different world at UC Berkeley
Kashawn Campbell overcame many obstacles to become a straight-A student. But his freshman year at Berkeley shook him to the core.
https://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-c1-cal-freshmen-20130816-dto-htmlstory.html
Straight As in high school to a kid whose brain was deprived of oxygen during delivery.Replies: @ThreeCranes, @bomag, @Spangel
“Using grade point averages is really dangerous”
When I was interning with a rural survey crew one summer, one of the crew members announced proudly that “Ed there, graduated as valedictorian of his high school class” while pointing to another guy who blushed and gave an “Aw shucks”. This somewhat surprised me because although I thought Ed was a great guy and a really pleasant companion, I’d never been overawed by his erudition. I experienced a moment’s confusion and it showed on my face, even though I tried to cover for it with a polite response.
“Course, he attended a one-room school house and was the only member of his graduating class” added the first guy, to the merriment of all.
Those country boys are a little cleverer than we city slickers give them credit for.
When “low test scores” stopped mattering. When was the last time you heard of a “non-qualifier”? I mean, you have to an absolute dunderhead to not make it on the NCAA’s current “sliding scale”, which lets everybody slide on through.
https://www.athleticscholarships.net/academic-requirements.htm#d1d2slidingscale
The should just use standardized testing plus overt racial quotas. Fill the white quota with the top white students, the black quota with the top black students, and so on. Or get more granular: The Jewish quota, the gentile quota, the slave descendants quota, the recent immigrant black quota ....
At historically black colleges and universities, don't they mostly choose black freshmen by their standardized test scores?
Using grade point averages is really dangerous, and I'd like to see that research and whether it has been carefully replicated. I am always reminded of the legendary mentally retarded valedictorian of L.A.'s Jeffefrson High, Kashawn Campbell who ended up at UC Berkeley in 2012:
South L.A. student finds a different world at UC Berkeley
Kashawn Campbell overcame many obstacles to become a straight-A student. But his freshman year at Berkeley shook him to the core.
https://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-c1-cal-freshmen-20130816-dto-htmlstory.html
Straight As in high school to a kid whose brain was deprived of oxygen during delivery.Replies: @ThreeCranes, @bomag, @Spangel
Looks like they admitted disadvantaged students who the admission officers figured they should have, and those test scores were 300 points lower.
“Pérez noted that even though nonprofits such as Khan Academy offer free online test preparation, only 3% of students at some underserved schools have regular access to the internet.”
I am calling double mega bullshit on that one.
Every school has plenty of internet access. The reality is you can never let the kids online for even one second unsupervised, and even then you will have constant problems. First, because the kids will IMMEDIATELY head to sites that are not suitable for work, school, life , anything. And second, because of the massive amount of relentless petty vandalism that occurs upon, how shall I phrase this tactfully, Minority access.
The simple fact is that there are always a significant number of kids in any (public) school system who are hostile to learning, for themselves or anyone else. Computers are a priority target for them. But no problem, plenty of experts will claim it is the School’s fault for not providing internet access to every aspiring hooligan to get online.
And since when did Filipinos become smart?
Only 3% have smartphones?!Replies: @Anonymous, @Oleaginous Outrager, @Anon, @mmack, @bigdicknick, @Alden, @HammerJack
Funny, but the guy is referring to schools with classroom internet access. I’m sure in the state of California there are some decrepit schools full of idiot students where only one or two classes have internet, and the rest of the students are special ed.
The idea that students are going to log out of black Twitter or Worldstar Hip Hop and use their personal smart phones to test-prep at Khan Academy is totally LOL.
If there’s anyone qualified to judge whether the SAT is biased, it’s someone who got 750 on the SAT!
I wasn’t aware that Filipinos are smarter than whites, which I assume includes Jews. What’s up with that? Filipinos are European plus Pacific Islanders plus some East Asian, I think. The overall mix should end up similar to Hispanics, I’d think.
Sooner or later the ruling class will have to make a choice: either it systematically disempowers white people or it shuts out a larger and larger share of Asians.
The most fair option: allowing true meritocracy, is not going to be allowed. Because that would set back black/brown diversity 50+ years in elite institutions.
10 years ago the answer would have been obvious: just cut the white percentage. But the ruling class is terrified of rising white consciousness. This could be a spark to a much wider conflagration. Something's gotta give. I doubt Asians will just sit pretty and watch forever.Replies: @Peterike, @HenryA, @Prof. Woland, @J
“Sooner or later the ruling class will have to make a choice: either it systematically disempowers white people or it shuts out a larger and larger share of Asians.”
That choice has already been made. The Jewish ruling class has chosen Asians over whites. This can’t happen overnight, but you see signs of it everywhere you look.
Cecilia Estolano continues her family tradition of anti-credentialism.
“We don’t need no stinkin’ studies,” she said.
Here is her grandpa back in the day:
There’s not a separate category for Taiwanese.
Only 3% have smartphones?!Replies: @Anonymous, @Oleaginous Outrager, @Anon, @mmack, @bigdicknick, @Alden, @HammerJack
My first thought as well: If “underserved” communities lack internet access, who exactly is posting those cell phone videos to World Star Hip Hop or YouTube?
When she graduated high school in 1990, Morningside was 64 percent black and 34 percent Hispanic, according to Schooldigger. Pre-No Child Left Behind, I imagine that nothing close to teaching or learning took place in that school.Replies: @Jack D, @Alan Mercer, @Laurence Whelk, @Ed
Just to be clear, this is 700 COMBINED, not 700 on each section. Rather 350 on each section. Especially now that they no longer penalize guessing, I think I could score 350 just by filling in dots on the answer sheet without reference to the test booklet. Really stupid people score WORSE than random because they are drawn to the “distractor” which is an answer that is wrong but appears right on some superficial level. Every SAT question has at least one distractor answer and the stupid are drawn to them like flies to honey.
I have an idea – we could set up separate universities for people with lower intelligence. That way, instead of forcing bright Asians and whites to endure a slower pace and less advanced material, each group could be taught at its own level. We could call these alternative schools “Hysterically Black Colleges and Universities” – something like that.
I have kept up with Lisa Leslie for about 25 years. There is nothing to indicate that she is of low intelligence. She did poorly on the exam because she had a horrific education. I spent two years at a 90 percent black elementary school in the Deep South. No teaching took place. Teachers were always absent or quitting. I had a teacher tell us that there were 52 states in the union. When my family moved to Texas, unbeknowst to me at the time I was placed in a remedial class in 6th grade. I caught up and by the end of 7th grade I made it into the National Junior Honor Society.
When Thomas Sowell lived in North Carolina he was the best student in his class. When he moved to Harlem he was the worst student in his class. He knew it wasn't racism because both schools were black. Sowell caught up and tested into Stuyvesant High School.
Your comment about Asians and whites eduring a slower pace and less advanced material is even dumber than your comment about scoring 350 on the SAT.
It's as if the other in the class had loaded dice. They guess ... but they guess right! How!!
“Why are Filipinos separated out from other Asians?”
Reminds me of how British statistics had categories for “white” and “Irish.”
https://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/georgia-book-burning-shows-white-students-not-all-pc-whipped-after-all/#comment-3512293
This is not true. The Barron’s SAT books have been around for many decades. Stanley Kaplan started tutoring for the SAT in 1946. Asians have taken this to a new level, but test prep has always been around.
PS I remember the Barron’s books as not being very good in the ’70s. In those days the SAT did not release old tests. Writing a proper practice SAT is not as easy as it looks. The College Board puts a lot of work into its tests.
Asians have taken this to a new level, but test prep has always been around.
Duh -- isn't that basically what I said? -- yet you seem to think your comment was some kind of "gotcha" -- weird.Replies: @AnonAnon
Son Number Three was deep into explaining to me the malaise he sees in his 25 to 35 yo cohort.
"They're not sure about anything, everything their parents told them has been proven untrue.'
This is certainly true about the education argument, I agreed.
'But I observe that they are certain that Bernie can walk on water, and the world will end in 8.5 years.'
I digress, In Fall 1972 I was taking Biol 11, with 2500 other freshman. When we broke up into the 24 student lab groups, I endured an entire table of Pre Med majors who somehow, in the first week of the term, had all the class notes from the past five years, and five years of old exams. Whether these kids, all Jewish from Abington and Long Island, had been fishing the day they took their SAT's, I didn't care enough to ask. I have also observed many years of Med students, and wouldn't let most of them feed my horses.
I have 2 questions, what kind of parent drives a child 24/7 to be an educational success, and what sort of havoc have these doctors wreaked on medicine.
There were no Asians in 1972.
You can see the handwriting on the wall, especially in California. We are Constantinople and it is really only a question of time. The barbarians are at the gates. The city is surrounded and the siege is commenced. Maybe this year’s attack will not succeed. That’s OK – the horsemen will be back next year and the year after that. Time and numbers are on their side. The defenders get older and more feeble every year. There are traitors already inside the city walls plotting to throw the gates open. Some wonder whether it’s even worth it to continue the struggle (it is – once the gates are thrown open things are going to get much worse – worse than they can even imagine from their sheltered lives). In the long run the battle is lost but it’s worth trying to hold the fort for as long as possible because what follows is not going to be pretty. Not pretty at all.
Maybe schools should take a closer look at the homelife. Are the parents engaged with the kids and pushing their kids to greatness? Or are the parents illiterate (I’m assuming many of those hispanic kids have ILLEGAL parent(s), especially in California?
Why are the school punishing smart kids? We know the Asian parents push their kids in education. Is the same thing happening with blacks and hispanic parents? I’m assuming the answer is “no.”
I agree with what you posted but I’d disagree on your statement on a lack of test prep in prior generations of students. I graduated high school over thirty years ago and at my high school there was a BIG push for college bound students to take the PSAT in your Junior year as a prep for the SAT. I didn’t and just took the ACT and SAT with the minimum of prep but other students in my class did PSAT and SAT prep classes.
Full disclosure: This was at a 90% White student body (some Chinese and Indian students who were children of Doctors or Engineers, very few Diverse or ¡Vibrant! students at all) High School in the far southwestern Chicago suburbs. I’m sure the student body has become more Diverse or ¡Vibrant! In the ensuing decades.
Oh come on man -- are you seriously suggesting that taking the PSAT, which I, and probably everyone else at my HS who was planning on attending college, took (as I recall, we took the PSAT in the Fall of our junior year, and the SAT in the Spring), was the equivalent of the organized test prep of today? -- in fact, the PSAT wasn't really all that optional, was it? -- it was, and I think still is (?), used to select National Merit Scholars, which opened the way to further honors, scholarships, etc -- this means that nearly everyone who took the SAT also routinely took the PSAT -- right? -- given that, how was the PSAT equivalent to the über-organized test prep so many students participate in today? -- I just don't see the equivalence at all -- sorry -- yet another failed "gotcha" reply.
I have an idea - we could set up separate universities for people with lower intelligence. That way, instead of forcing bright Asians and whites to endure a slower pace and less advanced material, each group could be taught at its own level. We could call these alternative schools "Hysterically Black Colleges and Universities" - something like that.Replies: @Triumph104, @El Dato
SAT test takers are automatically given 200 points per section or a combined 400 points for just signing their name.
I have kept up with Lisa Leslie for about 25 years. There is nothing to indicate that she is of low intelligence. She did poorly on the exam because she had a horrific education. I spent two years at a 90 percent black elementary school in the Deep South. No teaching took place. Teachers were always absent or quitting. I had a teacher tell us that there were 52 states in the union. When my family moved to Texas, unbeknowst to me at the time I was placed in a remedial class in 6th grade. I caught up and by the end of 7th grade I made it into the National Junior Honor Society.
When Thomas Sowell lived in North Carolina he was the best student in his class. When he moved to Harlem he was the worst student in his class. He knew it wasn’t racism because both schools were black. Sowell caught up and tested into Stuyvesant High School.
Your comment about Asians and whites eduring a slower pace and less advanced material is even dumber than your comment about scoring 350 on the SAT.
Reminds me of how British statistics had categories for "white" and "Irish."Replies: @Ray Huffman
Funny you should mention this because I just made a post about my own Irish ancestry and anti-Irish bigotry here:
https://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/georgia-book-burning-shows-white-students-not-all-pc-whipped-after-all/#comment-3512293
I have an idea - we could set up separate universities for people with lower intelligence. That way, instead of forcing bright Asians and whites to endure a slower pace and less advanced material, each group could be taught at its own level. We could call these alternative schools "Hysterically Black Colleges and Universities" - something like that.Replies: @Triumph104, @El Dato
You can understand how the world looks to them.
It’s as if the other in the class had loaded dice. They guess … but they guess right! How!!
https://www.smartbalance.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Original-Spread-15oz.jpgReplies: @El Dato
Stay away from that stuff.
Not using stanardized testing will lead, of course, to teachers and schools engaging in grade inflation to get their students into colleges.
PS I remember the Barron's books as not being very good in the '70s. In those days the SAT did not release old tests. Writing a proper practice SAT is not as easy as it looks. The College Board puts a lot of work into its tests.Replies: @eah, @Neil Templeton, @dr kill
A book was available; so fucking what? — how many people bought it and used it? — vs how many today pay for and attend day-long, weekend-long, etc test prep sessions — like I said: that kind of aptitude test prep was simply either not available or not at all widely utilized back when CA had a white super-majority (approx until the mid 1980s) — I never new about the book, or knew anyone who bought and used it — a few kids (class size > 750) took the test 2x, trying to get a better score (I never even considered it) — hardly anything other than that; certainly nothing organized by my HS, and certainly nothing like the hyper-competitive air that surrounds the SAT and ACT today; Asians are largely responsible for that.
Asians have taken this to a new level, but test prep has always been around.
Duh — isn’t that basically what I said? — yet you seem to think your comment was some kind of “gotcha” — weird.
Re the last two paragraphs:
The problem with that is that they are describing two different but related subjective entities:
Low SES students tend to go to high schools where high grades are easier to get, and then when they get to college, they tend to pick fluff courses and high grades are easier to get.
To put it another way, an A in Cubic Differential Equations is not the same as an A in Black Studies 101.
PS I remember the Barron's books as not being very good in the '70s. In those days the SAT did not release old tests. Writing a proper practice SAT is not as easy as it looks. The College Board puts a lot of work into its tests.Replies: @eah, @Neil Templeton, @dr kill
Still, I believe that test prep was rare 40 years ago compared with today. I may be naive, but I walked into the tests cold in the late ’70s, as did everyone that I was aware of. Test prep appears to be standard fare at high schools today.
If you didn't learn what you were supposed to learn in your HS classes or you are not that bright, that's another story.Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @Neil Templeton
The should just use standardized testing plus overt racial quotas. Fill the white quota with the top white students, the black quota with the top black students, and so on. Or get more granular: The Jewish quota, the gentile quota, the slave descendants quota, the recent immigrant black quota ....
At historically black colleges and universities, don't they mostly choose black freshmen by their standardized test scores?
Using grade point averages is really dangerous, and I'd like to see that research and whether it has been carefully replicated. I am always reminded of the legendary mentally retarded valedictorian of L.A.'s Jeffefrson High, Kashawn Campbell who ended up at UC Berkeley in 2012:
South L.A. student finds a different world at UC Berkeley
Kashawn Campbell overcame many obstacles to become a straight-A student. But his freshman year at Berkeley shook him to the core.
https://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-c1-cal-freshmen-20130816-dto-htmlstory.html
Straight As in high school to a kid whose brain was deprived of oxygen during delivery.Replies: @ThreeCranes, @bomag, @Spangel
I agree. Either they need to fully ban taking race into consideration or they ought to allow quotas. Otherwise, you get this non-transparent and disingenuous thumb of the scale for “diversity”, and they end up arbitrarily devaluing some students, even when they come from poor backgrounds.
Ultimately, setting quotas and publishing 25th to 75th percentiles for GPA/SAT for each quota group will help the minorities they claim they are desperate to recruit. As it stands, there are still black and hispanic kids who don’t apply for schools they can get into because their scores are well below the 25th percentile scores for admits the schools publish. Crazy as it may sound, not every single black student understands they are a viable admit to a school even with an SAT score 300 points below average.
And everyone else would know what they have to compete with in their lane.
Only 3% have smartphones?!Replies: @Anonymous, @Oleaginous Outrager, @Anon, @mmack, @bigdicknick, @Alden, @HammerJack
this statement will be used to justify buying every student a laptop with some kind of roaming 5g plan. Then it will have zero impact and there will be zero accountability for the people who suggested it who will move on to the next silly explanation for The Gap (TM)
https://www.wired.com/2015/05/los-angeles-edtech/
Is it too much to expect that North East Asians will realize that it's not in their self-interests to be part & parcel of the SJW coalition? These are pragmatic people so pragmatism alone should cause them to break off.Replies: @anon, @Kronos, @Robert Dolan, @bomag, @Anonymous, @An, @ATBOTL, @Fun
No. My asian students identift as people of color. They know that being white is far worse than a little college discrimination. No hope here at all.
That really jumped out. Even weirder is that “Asian” encompasses Indians in the same group as the Chinese.
White people do worse on English compared to Asians?! That is embarrassing. Asians in CA include a huge group who speak English as a second language and do not speak the language at home.
When she graduated high school in 1990, Morningside was 64 percent black and 34 percent Hispanic, according to Schooldigger. Pre-No Child Left Behind, I imagine that nothing close to teaching or learning took place in that school.Replies: @Jack D, @Alan Mercer, @Laurence Whelk, @Ed
“Not everyone is fortunate enough to live in Palos Verdes.”
Magic Dirt, if ever there was.
“We have books that the school was using years ago. It’s kind of unfair, because we’re not all provided with the same materials.”
Yes, the Inglewood texts are not up to date on innovations in language and math that the SAT covers. Like algebra, and the definition of recalcitrant. That’s how we keep them down.
But seriously, I’ve known a number of young K-12 teachers who, just beginning their careers, would jump at the chance to serve where they are desperately needed, and further have an inexplicable affinity for culturally “vibrant” urban districts. The only turnoffs, it turns out, is the constant resentment and fear of violence.
That is, I’m sure the teachers at Morningside are inferior. Maybe Morningside would have better teachers if it wasn’t the least desirable place to teach. It would be more desirable to teach there if not for the constant threat of bodily harm inside and nearby the campus, and the rank ingratitude of the student body.
When typing up my Diversity Statement on various applications, I’ve made the typo many times. These things bear careful proofreading.
I’m guessing since in Cali and Hawaii they were a large group. People noticed differences between them and Chinese and Japanese.
When she graduated high school in 1990, Morningside was 64 percent black and 34 percent Hispanic, according to Schooldigger. Pre-No Child Left Behind, I imagine that nothing close to teaching or learning took place in that school.Replies: @Jack D, @Alan Mercer, @Laurence Whelk, @Ed
“The test is basically biased, as far as I’m concerned,” she said. “We should all learn the same things. It shouldn’t differ as to what area you live in. In a way, it’s like segregation. Not everyone is fortunate enough to live in Palos Verdes.”
If the SAT only covered the tiny bit of information the typical black student is taught in public school, then the test would be 12 minutes long, the Lisa Leslies would get their 750s, and every Asian student would get a 1600 without spending a dime on test prep.
Implicit in Ms. Lesbie’s complaints are that the problems in black schools are caused by and must be redressed by someone not black and someone(s) outside the particular black school district. Never accept responsibility. Never.
The writing is on the wall, one way or the other entrance standards will be reduced in the UC system. They can’t have Latinos not be well represented in the system. A consequence of diversity that will spread nationwide.
Great. Now that non-STEM majors are known to add virtually no critical thinking value, the American economy’s credentialist demand for college graduates has been exposed as stupid. The quicker colleges destroy their reputations for building good potential employees, the quicker middle class American families (and increasingly, naive 18-22 year olds) will be freed from the yoke of six-figure degrees. There is nothing the IQ-blind left could do to hasten their decline than to decouple intelligence from college admission.
Our glorious future where AOC et al. nominally reign may not be as bad as one may fear–they’re so stupid their electoral power can easily be corralled. (See Mexico, as Steve frequently notes, for an example of a brown country run by people who could have been born in Madrid 500 years ago.)
"self-interest" YES
An example of NE Asian pragmatic self-interest in the largest US city would be their insurrection against Mayor de Blasio's ill-fated attempt to destroy NYC's mostly Asian prestigious high schools.Replies: @bomag, @Dave3, @Kronos, @bigdicknick
Asians know how to get their way in a one-party political system.
only 3% have internet access
They all have phones, public libraries, relatives, and there are some semi-public computer labs a few hours a day at most schools. There is absolutely no possibility of this three per cent number not being a bald lie.
Only one of which will get you admitted despite dismal SAT scores.
You will pay, for everything. Tribute to reconquered Atzlan.
Which is merely the (always primary) social portion of the Judeo-communist ideal.
Cecilia Estolano, left, and Katherine Aguilar Perez-Estolano, with their children. (Courtesy photo):
https://www.sbsun.com/2014/06/27/same-sex-couples-reflect-on-historic-one-year-wedding-anniversaries/
Steve’s photo of Cecilia made me wonder about which letters in LGBTQ applied to her.
Maybe she’s a lesbian who in Steve’s photo was trying to look butch.
Or maybe she’s transitioning.
Is it too much to expect that North East Asians will realize that it's not in their self-interests to be part & parcel of the SJW coalition? These are pragmatic people so pragmatism alone should cause them to break off.Replies: @anon, @Kronos, @Robert Dolan, @bomag, @Anonymous, @An, @ATBOTL, @Fun
Yes, it is too much to ask. Asians are not white and will never stop trying to take land, wealth and power from whites until whites unite as a race and stop them. Whites need to get over this insane idea that Asians or some other alien group will come to your rescue. Take that idiotic idea and kill it for good. The only thing that will help white people is white racial solidarity.
"See, we're not totally alone in this! Ching Shang and Durka Rakesh Brijadar will surely come to our aid on education, and taxes right?" (Nervous laughter follows).
Asians don't follow the rules anyways. They don't care about you. Time to suck it up and accept the truth. Only white people can stand up for white people. Stop trying to get others on your side, it will not happen.
You put it better than I did congratulations sir.Replies: @ATBOTL
Only 3% have smartphones?!Replies: @Anonymous, @Oleaginous Outrager, @Anon, @mmack, @bigdicknick, @Alden, @HammerJack
All California public schools have computers, many computers. If the kids drop out, obviously they don’t have access to the school’s computers.
My opinion; UC is looking at the public, not private K-12 schools stats and are worried about what will happen when there are no more White, but an overwhelmingly 85 IQ Hispanic Indian applicant pool.
Our test scores plunged from the top 10 to bottom in about 20 years, 1960 to 1980.
It’s hard to believe, but in the 50’s and 60’s NSA in Mountain View recruited on the basis of the wonderful California lifestyle especially the excellent public school system.
Our glorious future where AOC et al. nominally reign may not be as bad as one may fear--they're so stupid their electoral power can easily be corralled. (See Mexico, as Steve frequently notes, for an example of a brown country run by people who could have been born in Madrid 500 years ago.)Replies: @Alden, @CJ, @dvorak
Don’t forget the German Irish British East Europeans with Spanish surnames.
“Unfair barrier to admissions” is code for University’s transformation into a necessary status symbol from its previous practical application. High school prior went through the same transformation (HS graduation not being a high status symbol today, but a marker that prevents 2 levels below-floor status. So, a status marker nevertheless with no practical value in the demarcation of intelligence).
Before, personally insurmountable admissions barriers simply meant that college wasn’t for you. Now, these barriers are unfair obstacles to floor level social status that is widely seen as a social entitlement.
Up next: graduate degree admissions obstacles are too difficult.
I suppose that the end game to this might be the eventual elimination of education as marker of value whatsoever. The highest degree will eventually represent nothing more than minimum social status, and its curriculum will be dumbed down so that everyone can achieve it.
We would not have this problem if Asian elites had not gotten sick of their own governments and walked out, emigrating to the US for a country that won’t kill or imprison them for the crime of being smart. As for Mexico, their lower class has been walking out, sick of elites under whom they can’t get a fair shake. In both cases, the US is dealing with the problems generated by foreign governing classes that can’t run things worth a damn.
Philippinos are officially classified as Asian Pacific Islanders. They’re Malay ethnicity mixed with lots and lots of Chinese from the Chinese diaspora starting about 1,000 years ago.
Fair skin part Chinese tan skin pure Malay is an easy way to tell.
>They’re Malay ethnicity mixed with lots and lots of Chinese from the Chinese diaspora starting about 1,000 years ago.
There are a lot of cultural similarities between Malays/Indonesians and Filipinos once you dig underneath the surface and hang around them a bit: the religious differences, the Westernized nature of the Filipinos, etc. This should make sense, as they are all racially Malay. My ethnically Malay GF once said that Tagalog sounds like a Hispanized, super-fast version of Malay. When we were in Lucky Plaza-basically Singapore's Little Manila, all the Filipina maids hang out there on their day off-she could pick out some of the cognates, but it wasn't mutually intelligible.
It's complicated because within the Philippines and Malaysia and Indonesia, you have tons of different ethnic groups that all have different languages and cultures, but are all Malay in origin. (And that's not even touching all the Chinese and South Asian and Arab immigrants over the centuries.) I suppose the best analogy I could make with Indonesia or the Philippines is what would be the case if all the Slavic (or Germanic, or Latin) peoples in Europe occupied one big super-countries, or two big ones based on religious differences, instead of individual ones according to each individual ethnicity.
Sooner or later the ruling class will have to make a choice: either it systematically disempowers white people or it shuts out a larger and larger share of Asians.
The most fair option: allowing true meritocracy, is not going to be allowed. Because that would set back black/brown diversity 50+ years in elite institutions.
10 years ago the answer would have been obvious: just cut the white percentage. But the ruling class is terrified of rising white consciousness. This could be a spark to a much wider conflagration. Something's gotta give. I doubt Asians will just sit pretty and watch forever.Replies: @Peterike, @HenryA, @Prof. Woland, @J
In the past elite colleges would have simply cut the number of Whites to make way for more Asians. But today I would guess that the percentage of White Gentiles at the Ivy league schools is below twenty percent. To cut even more will get noticed. The only way now to allow more Asians would be to cut back on the number of Jews admitted or, God forbid, cut back on NAMs. Given that choice, theses schools will punish Asian students long before they begin restricting the number of Jews or NAMs.
The whole push seems to be coming from greedy college admins eager for more students to make money off of who have bribed politicians to do their will. No good can come from Latino students who load up with debt to attend a college they will flunk out of in their first year.
Colleges can’t really dumb down courses that their white and Asian students need credentials for. If you’re going on to law, medical, or engineering schools, you HAVE to be able to pass the entry exams. If waves of California students can no longer enter grad schools because everything been dumbed down to high-school level for stupid Latinos, the California state colleges will start losing their accreditations.
You’re new here,aren’t you?
Because Filipinos look different and perform different scholastically and professionally than other Asians?. Though still better overall than whites?
Interesting that East and South Asians are not generally separated out. They look different, but both do well. Though East Asians, more so.
Does being Filipino gain points in college admissions?
An aside: About 25 yrs ago in construction/contracting my company was told we needed to subcontract for a large project at a Pharma company. We needed to work through a company owned by an Indian (South Asian). The Pharma company needed to show X amount of dollars of the project was going to minority contractors. End result: We billed through the Indian owned company which then marked up our pricing. They did nothing for what they earned on this other than act as the middleman for the billing. The Pharma company paid more for the work, but got to look like a good corporate citizen that could say they used minority contractors. I became a Libertarian after this.
Did you move to Colorado, California or New Hampshire after that? Gary Johnson wants to know.Replies: @RAZ
Enterprising minority business owners create front companies for this purpose--in a wide variety of fields. They don't need to know anything about anything--they subcontract out all the work to real (white) experts--including filling out the applications for the contract!
They do have one skill, however--bribing politicians when necessary. Of course even then they have to have white accountants cook the books for them.
The "affirmative action" skim is wide and deep.
What are you telling us, you got a problem with our civilization being run by people named Kum-Kum Bhavnani? Very narrow minded of you my friend.
Except we can’t try to escape to the West, now.
Mexicans don’t pay for college. They get complete scholarships including free dorms and even book store vouchers. Plus do nothing jobs 10-20 hours a week at minimum wage. Say $9 an hour that’s $90-$180 a week during the school year, quite a bit if they have free tuition, dorm and books.
Pay for something? What an idea!
Our glorious future where AOC et al. nominally reign may not be as bad as one may fear--they're so stupid their electoral power can easily be corralled. (See Mexico, as Steve frequently notes, for an example of a brown country run by people who could have been born in Madrid 500 years ago.)Replies: @Alden, @CJ, @dvorak
I’m thinking along the same lines. The college/university system is a grotesque dysfunctional monster sucking resources out of productive citizens. The sooner it crashes and burns the better.
This looks rather interesting. First, here are the 2018 and 2019 versions of Kurlaender’s paper.
https://edpolicyinca.org/sites/default/files/SBAC-SAT%20Paper.pdf
https://edpolicyinca.org/sites/default/files/R_Kurlaender_Mar-2019.pdf
The primary differences I see are in formatting and (this is a big one) in having the correlation matrices in Tables A3 and A4 include race and SED (Socioeconomic Disadvantage) along with the tests. I recommend just looking at the 2019 version.
Here is their description of the SBAC:
That sounds appealing to me. Especially the computer-adaptive part–which gives an opportunity for finer resolution at the top and bottom end as well as lower floor and higher ceiling. Whether they take advantage of that possibility is unclear to me.
I see the push for using the SBAC instead of the SAT in admissions to have two aspects to consider.
1. The tests are roughly equivalent in predictive power.
2. The SBAC is less biased against (i.e. gives better relative results for ; ) minorities and the poor.
A third aspect is greater accessibility and lower cost for the SBAC, but there is no question about that.
The paper offers evidence for 1. using CSU and UC Davis students. UCD students score significantly higher than most CSU campuses (Cal Poly SLO and San Diego State are notable outliers, SLO a little higher, SDS a little lower) with SAT 25/75 numbers of Reading 560/660 and Math 570/700.
https://www.thoughtco.com/sat-scores-for-admission-to-cal-state-788606
https://www.thoughtco.com/sat-scores-for-university-of-california-campuses-788665
BTW, if you click through to the individual college pages they have an interesting Self-Reported GPA/SAT/ACT Graph. I just wish they allowed looking at the points for each group individually because of all of the overplotting.
The test correlations are lower and almost identical for CSU (Table 1) compared to UCD (Table 5). Here is the relevant text from the paper:
So the SBAC appears to be slightly inferior to the SAT as a predictor of first year GPA. That makes me suspicious of how the test ceilings compare. Probably not a big deal for CSU admissions, but it appears it may matter at UCD, and presumably even more so at more selective colleges. It would be good to have data for the respective test ceilings.
A notable flaw of this study IMHO is that it uses First Year GPA as a metric with no adjustment for course difficulty. Probably the best they could do with the available data though.
Regarding: 2. The SBAC is less biased against (i.e. gives better relative results for ; ) minorities and the poor.
This is where things get interesting. Given that reducing these gaps seems to be the holy grail of Current Year testing.
I believe this is mostly based on the Table A3 and A4 correlations (one nice feature of those tables is they have applicants in Panel A and enrollees in Panel B). Those offer a quick way to compare which measures relatively favor which races. For example, Hispanics do much better at HSGPA than any of the tests and better at the SBAC than the SAT. Whites appear to do relatively worse at the SBAC than the SAT (would love to understand how they pulled off that set of results). Blacks do roughly the same at the SBAC and SAT.
The SED (Socioeconomic Disadvantage) group does better on the SBAC than the SAT. Which would help explain the Hispanic and white results, but make the black results a bit of an anomaly. I think it would be helpful to try to tease out the true causal variables there. Do Hispanics do better on the SBAC because they tend to be poorer, or the opposite?
One thing I don’t understand is how they got the inter-racial correlations (e.g. Hispanic/Black). If they are looking at individuals (as the N= in the tables indicates) shouldn’t those correlations be 0 since the racial categories are exclusive in this paper? Any ideas?
Overall, I find that paper persuasive for using the SBAC for CSU admissions (except maybe Cal Poly SLO). This would allow a range of students not applying to other schools which require the SAT to apply to CSU without the additional trouble and expense of taking the SAT. And if the better results of Hispanics/poor are truly reflective of ability (which could be evaluated by a few years of following the admittees who got in due to that) might be a good way of giving them a better chance.
I find it less persuasive concerning using the SBAC for UC admissions (which IS the topic of the article in this iSteve post). Davis is at the lower end of UC SAT scores and any ceiling effect (or whatever it is causing the FYGPA/SBAC correlation to decrease relative to the SAT) would only become worse at the more selective campuses.
I think it would be sensible to consider allowing the SBAC for admissions at CSU (with SLO, and maybe SDS, getting to decide whether or not they want to). Then after a few years of that evaluate the outcomes of that before thinking about the other colleges.
Any thoughts?
P.S. This discussion of the SBAC in a gifted forum might be of interest: http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/topics/222705/all/SBAC.html
I ran into broken links, but the Internet Archive helped. Does anyone know if the absolute score results are comparable between grades? If so, that would make for some incredibly interesting data.
But if you aren't in education and haven't seen the percentile rank curves, then there might be something for you to learn
yes, these tests are computer adaptive and yes their scores are on the same scale to be easily meaningful year over year.
But it doesn't matter what the test is, the score curves are the same:
Looking at national average on our schools (not broken down by race or sx or..), on verbal/language exams, kids in the 95%ile percentile in grade 4 outperform the 50th %ile of grade 12. the 50th%ile -95%ile only increase by a standard deviation in their respective scores from middle of grade 6 to 12th. Their gains in 6th are basically past the inflection point, and hf of kids never learn anything after age 11..the gaps between the various percentile curves is constant over the years on these exams, exactly as you'd expect if "teaching" does nothing, and students just learn at their given rate.
the most interesting results however are when CC state standards by mastery are correlated to the percentiles. What we see is in grade 5 kids hitting state standards are in the 75%ile. that is, only a 1/4 are hitting the state standarda for their grade. and the drop-off keeps going. by 8th grade, only the top 10% are meeting standards.
individual gains are measurable, of course, by measuring changes, especially across percentile, but all SBAC is going to do is tell what we already know: not everyone is competent to go to college regardless of grades, our education system is not even keeping up with the state required basics even for the kids with high enough capacity to learn them, and while we can predict by grade 3 who is going to be college ready, kids can fail to live up to that--we are undereducating our brightest. so the gap is visible at grade 3, and only made smaller by retarding their growth. now what makes you think they're gonna use that test?Replies: @res
Our glorious future where AOC et al. nominally reign may not be as bad as one may fear--they're so stupid their electoral power can easily be corralled. (See Mexico, as Steve frequently notes, for an example of a brown country run by people who could have been born in Madrid 500 years ago.)Replies: @Alden, @CJ, @dvorak
Think of college as pre-retirement. Rather than giving Social Security earlier, the government was able to add retirement years to the front end. So enjoy.
Rachel Maddow’s hispanic twin
Fighting over the spoils! I wonder if the group that loses will start its own institutions?
No, no, no. Decades of research have shown that scores strongly correlate with family income, parents’ education and race.
The “influence” (i.e. the cause) is something else entirely. (We here all know this, of course.)
With illogic like this so prevalent, there is no hope and no point in trying to steer our national ship away from the iceberg it is running into. Let the band play on, and let us enjoy our country while it lasts.
The stupidity builds upon itself, grows like a cancer, as it successfully convinces the stupid public to admit ever more stupid people, who will then go on to write stupid arguments for admitting more stupid people.
Our only hope is the fact that college is becoming a costly waste of time, such that the smart people might eventually avoid it and then later refuse to hire graduates when in position to do so.
If nobody is getting these kinds of jokes, WTF am I doing here?
Fair skin part Chinese tan skin pure Malay is an easy way to tell.Replies: @nebulafox
Filipinos really are different. When I was in the Philippines, I was stunned by all the little American-isms you saw around you: the music, the cars, the consumerism, everything. It’s a telling connection to the American period: because to me, the place felt “not foreign” in a way that nowhere else in Asia matched, despite being in a third world country. But the German expat I was meeting certainly didn’t feel that way!
>They’re Malay ethnicity mixed with lots and lots of Chinese from the Chinese diaspora starting about 1,000 years ago.
There are a lot of cultural similarities between Malays/Indonesians and Filipinos once you dig underneath the surface and hang around them a bit: the religious differences, the Westernized nature of the Filipinos, etc. This should make sense, as they are all racially Malay. My ethnically Malay GF once said that Tagalog sounds like a Hispanized, super-fast version of Malay. When we were in Lucky Plaza-basically Singapore’s Little Manila, all the Filipina maids hang out there on their day off-she could pick out some of the cognates, but it wasn’t mutually intelligible.
It’s complicated because within the Philippines and Malaysia and Indonesia, you have tons of different ethnic groups that all have different languages and cultures, but are all Malay in origin. (And that’s not even touching all the Chinese and South Asian and Arab immigrants over the centuries.) I suppose the best analogy I could make with Indonesia or the Philippines is what would be the case if all the Slavic (or Germanic, or Latin) peoples in Europe occupied one big super-countries, or two big ones based on religious differences, instead of individual ones according to each individual ethnicity.
No, they are given agency by the jews, and this agency is used to steal resources from white people.
On some level the non-whites understand the process better than whites do.Replies: @Dan Hayes
Robert Dolan:
The NE Asians are not “natural conservatives” but could, under proper circumstances, become “self-interested conservatives”.
One interesting thing I noted in addition to everything posted: in California, a lot of gun shooting ranges are owned by Filipino-Americans. The Philippines itself has a massive hobbyist gun culture-courtesy of the American colonial period. Young Chinese techies who want to learn to shoot in real life will go to the PI on weekends.
Exactly this. It seems to be some weird coping mechanism whites have.
“See, we’re not totally alone in this! Ching Shang and Durka Rakesh Brijadar will surely come to our aid on education, and taxes right?” (Nervous laughter follows).
Asians don’t follow the rules anyways. They don’t care about you. Time to suck it up and accept the truth. Only white people can stand up for white people. Stop trying to get others on your side, it will not happen.
You put it better than I did congratulations sir.
My University actually did that – gave every student a Tablet. Completely useless of course, but a great way to waste enormous wad of cash. Would have done more good distributing pencils & note paper in class. Especially as they got rid of their printing department at the same time – I have to print & bind all my own module handbooks now, using home or office printer and a long-arm stapler.
https://www.philanthropydaily.com/the-spectacular-failure-of-one-laptop-per-child/
Because they dont want to be penalized in the quota game. If you say you are white or asian you are penalized.
If you live around fillipinos most/ many of them bring up their European heritage, Spanish. Especially fillipinos that are over 5ft 4 inches tall “I am Es pan ish” . Sometimes they bring up their chinese Heritage. But they are practical so they want a different category for quota purposes.
Its a game, they play to win.
Snr. Estolano inadvertently provides a clue into the relative academic success of various ethnic and racial groups – some value “studies” – scholarship, research, thought and intellectual discrimination – some not so much.
I got into the University of California, otherwise known as “Cal,” a top ten school, based on my GPA from community college. I never took a standardized test. Being the smartest guy in the room, smarter than blacks or mexicans or chinese, has it’s advantages.
See also, Aaron Rodgers and Jared Goff, for the future of America.
The Northeast Asians know that in the eyes of the KKK, Neo-Nazi movement, alt-right, and white nationalists, they are in the same category as Blacks and Hispanics.Replies: @bomag, @BenKenobi, @El Dato, @jbwilson24
Rather trollish take.
The Alt-Right wants to face reality in terms of race and ethnicity; live with and take care of those already in the country.
SJWs have shown themselves to be race replacers par excellence, and Asians may wish they chose differently when the SJWs start throwing them overboard to make way for the future African tsunami.
I don’t know why American bureaucrats think they have anything in common, because they certainly don’t feel they do. Indians from India tend to openly hate the Chinese. The Chinese from China hold Indians-and India-in barely disguised contempt.
It’s not even remotely the same cultural construct. You can make an argument that a Pole and an Italian and a Scotsman, despite being different in language, looks, and culture, come from the same European/Christian template. That does not apply to East and South Asians: you might as well be comparing Arabs and Russians for all the similarities there are.
(Singaporean Chinese and Singaporean Indians get along OK: after decades of government social engineering that gut-forced everybody to embrace a pan-Singaporean identity above everything else. It worked. But mass importation of immigrants from the PRC not subjected to the same social conditioning is proving to be challenge. I can vouch for the fact that the Singaporean Malays and Indians find it galling to be treated by some random FOB from mainland China as “the foreigners” in their own country, doubly so when this is coupled with unflattering assumptions about their type of occupation.)
Sooner or later the ruling class will have to make a choice: either it systematically disempowers white people or it shuts out a larger and larger share of Asians.
The most fair option: allowing true meritocracy, is not going to be allowed. Because that would set back black/brown diversity 50+ years in elite institutions.
10 years ago the answer would have been obvious: just cut the white percentage. But the ruling class is terrified of rising white consciousness. This could be a spark to a much wider conflagration. Something's gotta give. I doubt Asians will just sit pretty and watch forever.Replies: @Peterike, @HenryA, @Prof. Woland, @J
This might be a good opportunity for Asians to take the ‘high ground’ and say they won’t support discrimination against whites in academia any longer. Simultaneously whites can say they won’t tolerate discrimination against Asians. Either that or wait till blacks and Hispanics to increase their scores which ain’t going to happen.
As most Asians are proggy and vote for Democrats, they must support ending SAT requirements.
Equality for all. Go by lottery.
I pride myself on my “narrow minded-ness” though I prefer to think of it as “laser focus”.
The Northeast Asians know that in the eyes of the KKK, Neo-Nazi movement, alt-right, and white nationalists, they are in the same category as Blacks and Hispanics.Replies: @bomag, @BenKenobi, @El Dato, @jbwilson24
A good portion of us “in the Alt-Right” started out as blank-slate deracinated Whites who only turned to the dark side upon learning the true purpose and long-term plans of “diversity”
This is more Late Imperial Collapse where the inherent contradictions in a diverse empire become larger and larger as the wealth pump stops working. More people fighting over less resources and the tribes trying to have it both way.
We’ve got this to hang our hats on over here.
The Northeast Asians know that in the eyes of the KKK, Neo-Nazi movement, alt-right, and white nationalists, they are in the same category as Blacks and Hispanics.Replies: @bomag, @BenKenobi, @El Dato, @jbwilson24
Bad quality cocaine can seriously harm your health! Talk to your dealer!
When she graduated high school in 1990, Morningside was 64 percent black and 34 percent Hispanic, according to Schooldigger. Pre-No Child Left Behind, I imagine that nothing close to teaching or learning took place in that school.Replies: @Jack D, @Alan Mercer, @Laurence Whelk, @Ed
Kind of interesting or sad how things haven’t changed much in California in terms of grade inflation at black/Hispanic schools. In the spring, the LA Times ran a story on a kid in south central that had 4.10 GPA but scored below the 10th percentile on the SAT. No matter several top schools still considered him.
https://www.latimes.com/local/education/la-me-edu-college-cheating-scandal-damion-20190322-story.html
He is attending UC Davis
https://achieve.lausd.net/site/Default.aspx?PageType=3&DomainID=1121&PageID=15789&ViewID=dedccd34-7c24-4af2-812a-33c0075398bc&FlexDataID=77173
I should clarify, obsessively, that race is relevant and can be considered a cause, while family income and parents’ education are not a cause of scores but rather are somewhat a result of racial differences.
Race is the one independent variable here, not only correlating with scores, but causing the different averages. This cannot be changed, because one’s race cannot be changed — not even by ignoring its existence!
Doing away with what are essentially intelligence tests will only help to hide the truth and admit more unqualified students. But again, we here all know this.
40 years ago I bought the Barron’s book – not very good but better than nothing and I did well anyway. 30 years later my kids bought the book put out by the College Board – better because it was actual previous SATs. If you are bright enough, that’s all you need – you take a few practice SATs and you get the hang of the timing and the kind of questions they like to ask. If you get a few wrong, you can check the right answer and brush up a bit if for some reason you don’t understand how to answer that type of question.
If you didn’t learn what you were supposed to learn in your HS classes or you are not that bright, that’s another story.
If you didn't learn what you were supposed to learn in your HS classes or you are not that bright, that's another story.Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @Neil Templeton
I did essentially the same thing 40 years ago, checking the book out at the local library and practicing with it. I was a high school dropout and was working from scratch with what was essentially a 9th grade education. I scored in the 99th percentile and was admitted to the best university I could have hoped for.
So, if you just up and quit high school, there may be hope for you. If you stayed there and learned nothing, then that is indeed another story.
All this hoopla about test prep and Asian grinder-preppers, and rich bribers, and whatnot, all just to look smarter than they are, well, that’s kind of gilding a lily that isn’t very pretty to begin with, and I wish this whole subject would go away. It is for another breed of people, apparently. The end result just rewards gamers, people who can work a game, get every little scrap and stretch the baselines as much as they can. I don’t want my world led by such people.
Interesting that East and South Asians are not generally separated out. They look different, but both do well. Though East Asians, more so.
Does being Filipino gain points in college admissions?
An aside: About 25 yrs ago in construction/contracting my company was told we needed to subcontract for a large project at a Pharma company. We needed to work through a company owned by an Indian (South Asian). The Pharma company needed to show X amount of dollars of the project was going to minority contractors. End result: We billed through the Indian owned company which then marked up our pricing. They did nothing for what they earned on this other than act as the middleman for the billing. The Pharma company paid more for the work, but got to look like a good corporate citizen that could say they used minority contractors. I became a Libertarian after this.Replies: @anon, @Justvisiting
I became a Libertarian after this.
Did you move to Colorado, California or New Hampshire after that? Gary Johnson wants to know.
Give me your tired, your poor,
Your coddled morons yearning to be surgeons
Free of charge
Or ability.
The HS valedictorian here. And yet, when I read a history article on this website, many or most commenters understand and interpret history better than I can. When it is a scientific article, the same goes. And so on. While I certainly do not evangelize against studying hard in high school, I believe grades are overweighted. By the way, the definite article at the beginning of this essay carries weight, because back in those days, there was only one, unlike here in California, where there will sometimes be 150 valedictorians.
Negroponte’s One Laptop Per Child has equally been a huge failure in the Third World.
The spectacular failure of One Laptop Per Child
https://www.philanthropydaily.com/the-spectacular-failure-of-one-laptop-per-child/
Whether it’s Leslie or any other minority it’s over. What you are seeing is the disintegration of all standards whether it’s getting into a university or Law School, Med School or anything else. It is a complete collapse of society’s standards based on merit to invoke the Diversity Agenda which will be the end of civilization as we know it.
Someone already mentioned it but California has a huge Filipino population. In fact, last I checked, California broke out Chinese, Korean, and Filipino, and even Vietnamese. Depends on the test.
See also, Aaron Rodgers and Jared Goff, for the future of America.Replies: @education realist
Being smart has little to do with it. It’s much easier to get into the UCs from community college; that’s how many whites and Asians are doing it these days.
We homeschooled our kids. They both got into a bunch of UCs. Hard to see how the UCs could have judged them without standardized tests.
They were rejected by all of the elite private schools they applied to (though “wait-listed” by Caltech), even though their test scores were higher than the average admittees’ scores (except at MIT and Caltech): this is possibly because their mother is Asian and the private schools can racially discriminate. (Note again the wait-listing at Caltech: Caltech does not racially discriminate, and, in fact, wait-listing was the correct ranking for them at Caltech — they’re close in ability level, but Caltech wold not have been the right fit. As a Caltech grad myself — of course, there are no legacy admits at Caltech! — I can testify that Caltech only wants kids who are insanely obsessed with STEM.)
Of course, the real problem here is that we no longer view colleges as providing a service for which the customers pay and then the student makes of that service what he will: it did work a bit like that circa 1950, when going to Harvard basically meant you were rich, not necessarily smart. Now, the college you go to is a proxy for how smart you are; what you actually learned is of secondary importance (though your major still matters a lot in terms of employability).
I take it the Canadians have a “flatter” system where there are a lot of okay universities rather than a small fraction of elite schools. You go to the school that is convenient, and it is up to you what you learn.
How did the schools know the mother was Asian unless you told them? I assume that you are White and your kids have American names. I guess I applaud your honesty. That’s more honest than I would have been in that situation.Replies: @PhysicistDave
>If you stayed there and learned nothing, then that is indeed another story.
I stayed there and learned nothing, like most of my HS peers. I did well anyway (unevenly so, but I killed the math section, which got me a ticket to my state top-10 engineering school in spite of a less than impressive GPA) without any sort of preparation and the attention span of a gnat, so I can’t claim that it hurt me then and there… but it is indeed another story when you enter the real world. Trust me: I wish I had your courage. Anywhom, I didn’t know any test practice books existed, but I had a rather unusual childhood, so I’d agree with the larger point that this isn’t new, and people shouldn’t need tons and tons of prep to do well on the SAT or ACT if they truly belong in college.
(I also don’t think I would have gotten away with it if I didn’t have an obsession with solving algebra and geometry problems for fun in elementary school. Since you can’t really control what your obsessions are, that’s more luck than anything I did. The math obsession is finally coming back as I detox. I kicked things off last week by starting to relearn Fourier analysis. I have not felt this happy to be alive in over a decade.)
OT Kavanaugh cucks already: https://vdare.com/posts/lawyer-illegal-alien-only-committed-identity-theft-in-order-to-steal-an-american-job
Has it ever happened, even once, in the last hundred years, that a Dem president’s SCOTUS appointee has defected to the right? It seems it’s only our guys who betray.
Maybe Byron "Whizzer" White didn't defect to the right but we can be grateful that he didn't veer leftward as his SCOTUS career progressed. Of course it all came to naught when he was succeeded by RBG!
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/Graph_of_Martin-Quinn_Scores_of_Supreme_Court_Justices_1937-Now.pngReplies: @International Jew
I find the particulars of the case you linked quite galling: a guy submits a fraudulent federal I9 form to gain state employment, but the justices don't want that fraudulent form used in a state fraud prosecution. Huh?
Check out the discrete version of the FT that is used in signal processing. I once practically understood how it works, a loong time ago.
They were rejected by all of the elite private schools they applied to (though "wait-listed" by Caltech), even though their test scores were higher than the average admittees' scores (except at MIT and Caltech): this is possibly because their mother is Asian and the private schools can racially discriminate. (Note again the wait-listing at Caltech: Caltech does not racially discriminate, and, in fact, wait-listing was the correct ranking for them at Caltech -- they're close in ability level, but Caltech wold not have been the right fit. As a Caltech grad myself -- of course, there are no legacy admits at Caltech! -- I can testify that Caltech only wants kids who are insanely obsessed with STEM.)
Of course, the real problem here is that we no longer view colleges as providing a service for which the customers pay and then the student makes of that service what he will: it did work a bit like that circa 1950, when going to Harvard basically meant you were rich, not necessarily smart. Now, the college you go to is a proxy for how smart you are; what you actually learned is of secondary importance (though your major still matters a lot in terms of employability).
I take it the Canadians have a "flatter" system where there are a lot of okay universities rather than a small fraction of elite schools. You go to the school that is convenient, and it is up to you what you learn.Replies: @nebulafox, @Buzz Mohawk, @Hapalong Cassidy
What I’m concerned with is the fact that the end result of American higher education is beginning to resemble late imperial China, if we’re talking practical effect on society and how kids are being pressed to prepare for the future.
That’s not good. Like so many other things, our outright Brezhnevite (senility, venality, and petty wannabe authoritarianism-in equal measure, the description is apt) bipartisan ruling elite are playing with matches next to a gigantic vat of gas. If there’s one thing that is a recipe for chaos, it is unhappily declassed young former bourgeoisie who see little stake in the current political system. Politics is the backup choice of the failed merchant: and even moreso of the failed academic or civil servant.
They were rejected by all of the elite private schools they applied to (though "wait-listed" by Caltech), even though their test scores were higher than the average admittees' scores (except at MIT and Caltech): this is possibly because their mother is Asian and the private schools can racially discriminate. (Note again the wait-listing at Caltech: Caltech does not racially discriminate, and, in fact, wait-listing was the correct ranking for them at Caltech -- they're close in ability level, but Caltech wold not have been the right fit. As a Caltech grad myself -- of course, there are no legacy admits at Caltech! -- I can testify that Caltech only wants kids who are insanely obsessed with STEM.)
Of course, the real problem here is that we no longer view colleges as providing a service for which the customers pay and then the student makes of that service what he will: it did work a bit like that circa 1950, when going to Harvard basically meant you were rich, not necessarily smart. Now, the college you go to is a proxy for how smart you are; what you actually learned is of secondary importance (though your major still matters a lot in terms of employability).
I take it the Canadians have a "flatter" system where there are a lot of okay universities rather than a small fraction of elite schools. You go to the school that is convenient, and it is up to you what you learn.Replies: @nebulafox, @Buzz Mohawk, @Hapalong Cassidy
Salutations, Sir! Caltech was my dream school, and I would be happier right now, earning a lot less money, calculating interplanetary trajectories for space probes at JPL, or driving rovers on Mars, than I am as an overcompensated B.A. handling other people’s money. I mean this sincerely.
Why are there not more colleges in America that function the way Caltech does?! It is bewildering that there is only one, true, meritocratic “STEM” school in our American universe. I bow down to you with all due respect, Caltech Alumnus.
Cal Tech deserves acclaim except for the fact that it weighs the system for female admissions.Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
No time to read any of this, but I will just say, “if reality doesn’t fit with what you want change the data/sampling/algorithm to reduce _harm_” is a completely acceptable and normal behavior now. Reducing Harm is the justification to do all sorts of hitherto unscientific things. Balancing the scores so Mexicans and Blacks do better is just fine for lots of people because to do otherwise would “Cause Harm.”
At the end of the day, the will to power is all that matters to many of these people. Science is really just more of the White man’s voodoo that keeps people down.
Has it ever happened, even once, in the last hundred years, that a Dem president's SCOTUS appointee has defected to the right? It seems it's only our guys who betray.Replies: @Dan Hayes, @res, @bomag, @Anonymous
International Jew:
Maybe Byron “Whizzer” White didn’t defect to the right but we can be grateful that he didn’t veer leftward as his SCOTUS career progressed. Of course it all came to naught when he was succeeded by RBG!
Buzz Mohawk:
Cal Tech deserves acclaim except for the fact that it weighs the system for female admissions.
Yeah, that’s on the to-do list! It’s gorgeous stuff, isn’t it? It is one of those subjects that really unites a lot of the math you’ve studied before and shows how it all fits together.
The first piece of non-trivial code I wrote back in the day was a barebones FFT package, in fact, so I’m now contemplating redoing that.
PS I remember the Barron's books as not being very good in the '70s. In those days the SAT did not release old tests. Writing a proper practice SAT is not as easy as it looks. The College Board puts a lot of work into its tests.Replies: @eah, @Neil Templeton, @dr kill
I took the SAT in 1971, clomping into the school cafeteria a little before 9 am with muddy boots and wet pants from being streamside at 3:30 am for the opening day of trout season. Prepare? Study? Tutoring? Man, don’t get me started. I feel so sad for kids these days. They don’t have a shot, and they know it.
Son Number Three was deep into explaining to me the malaise he sees in his 25 to 35 yo cohort.
“They’re not sure about anything, everything their parents told them has been proven untrue.’
This is certainly true about the education argument, I agreed.
‘But I observe that they are certain that Bernie can walk on water, and the world will end in 8.5 years.’
I digress, In Fall 1972 I was taking Biol 11, with 2500 other freshman. When we broke up into the 24 student lab groups, I endured an entire table of Pre Med majors who somehow, in the first week of the term, had all the class notes from the past five years, and five years of old exams. Whether these kids, all Jewish from Abington and Long Island, had been fishing the day they took their SAT’s, I didn’t care enough to ask. I have also observed many years of Med students, and wouldn’t let most of them feed my horses.
I have 2 questions, what kind of parent drives a child 24/7 to be an educational success, and what sort of havoc have these doctors wreaked on medicine.
There were no Asians in 1972.
The Northeast Asians know that in the eyes of the KKK, Neo-Nazi movement, alt-right, and white nationalists, they are in the same category as Blacks and Hispanics.Replies: @bomag, @BenKenobi, @El Dato, @jbwilson24
“You’re forgetting that white nationalism and the alt-right are specifically to promote an all-white nation, or all-white world.”
Provide a citation, you buffoon.
I can’t think of one white nationalist who wants an ‘all white world’. Apparently you are too dense to see the difference between “a country for my people” and “all countries for my people”.
Even Hitler admired the Chinese and Japanese, saying that the history of their civilizations was superior to Germany’s.
Too hip for the room.
Did you move to Colorado, California or New Hampshire after that? Gary Johnson wants to know.Replies: @RAZ
Didn’t move. But have mostly voted Libertarian since then.
Thank you!
don’t be too hard on a teenager.
These kids have no idea they don’t know anything at all.
They know they got As for showing up, being nondisruptive, and turning in their homework. They do what’s asked of them and get screwed by the system where their teachers may know nothing, and the few who can read the book still give them toy problems and teaches nothing but pass them.
They only find out how screwed they are when they take the ACT and get a 16 after having been in honors pre calc while not even knowing what a factor or multiple is.
most kids get indignant when you try to tutor them at that point. try to teach them that decimals are fractions with denominators of powers of 10, and they remind you they’ve always gotten As, and can’t you just show them how to solve the problem.
Their parents don’t know because their kid got As. most parents.assume if their kid is getting an A, then they’ve mastered the basic content of the grade level. they’re wrong, but they don’t know it. Grades are uncorrelated with mastery.
Some of you may have read about the black Madison school security guard who was fired to saying to a kid: “don’t call me n*****” and the protests around it.
1. I hope the guy is reinstated. It was a stupid firing.
2. I hope they change the rule to take context into consideration, so they stop firing people for this sort of thing.
3. I wish they had changed the rule a few years back before my kid’s favorite middle school teacher in Madison was fired for saying “don’t say ******”. My kid is a mixture or three different races, and will often talk sh*t about white people, but my kid was upset that people only protested when a black guy was fired. My kid complained about anti-white racism. Interesting for one so young and woke, but mixed race kids often have a very clear picture of the racial landscape.
4. I hope the MMSD (Madison Metro School District) gets rid of ALL their zero tolerance policies. They used to have a zero tolerance policy for student alcohol use until a white female athlete who had never been in trouble was expelled for alcohol use in the school. Some people in Madison complained that they school board only stopped the policy because it was a nice white girl from a good family. Right after they changed the policy, another one of my kids was caught by the principal for drinking. Principal called me up, and said since they had gotten rid of the Zero Tolerance policy, he was giving my kid a warning, and made my kid see a counselor, which helped a lot.
Right before that principal left his job, I emailed him to thank him for using common sense, and helping my kid get on the right path. That older kid is now a Deans List student at a good college.
Had the Madison School Board not changed that earlier zero tolerance policy, it could have destroyed my older kid’s future.
From my experience, dropouts and expel-ees do as well as they would have otherwise.
But clearly the policies you object to exist because of the political/educational desires of someone else.
Instead of "wishing and hoping", why not the obvious: Educational choice. You send your kids to schools that have--more or less--policies and programs that seem reasonable to you. And--in the event there are enough PC loons to support it--the PC loons send their kids to a school with the PC policies they support.
This is the gist of it. "Liberals" yelp about "diversity" but what they really mean is "you must conform to our PC views."
With "diversity" we don't have a common culture anymore. We don't agree on basic discipline, much less "heroes" and "values" or any sort of cirriculum. So let's not impose "education" that many parents find ridiculous to toxic on kids and rather let the market work and sort out what sort of education parents want for their kids and over time what ciriculum and methods actually work.
https://edpolicyinca.org/sites/default/files/SBAC-SAT%20Paper.pdf
https://edpolicyinca.org/sites/default/files/R_Kurlaender_Mar-2019.pdf
The primary differences I see are in formatting and (this is a big one) in having the correlation matrices in Tables A3 and A4 include race and SED (Socioeconomic Disadvantage) along with the tests. I recommend just looking at the 2019 version.
Here is their description of the SBAC:That sounds appealing to me. Especially the computer-adaptive part--which gives an opportunity for finer resolution at the top and bottom end as well as lower floor and higher ceiling. Whether they take advantage of that possibility is unclear to me.
I see the push for using the SBAC instead of the SAT in admissions to have two aspects to consider.
1. The tests are roughly equivalent in predictive power.
2. The SBAC is less biased against (i.e. gives better relative results for ; ) minorities and the poor.
A third aspect is greater accessibility and lower cost for the SBAC, but there is no question about that.
The paper offers evidence for 1. using CSU and UC Davis students. UCD students score significantly higher than most CSU campuses (Cal Poly SLO and San Diego State are notable outliers, SLO a little higher, SDS a little lower) with SAT 25/75 numbers of Reading 560/660 and Math 570/700.
https://www.thoughtco.com/sat-scores-for-admission-to-cal-state-788606
https://www.thoughtco.com/sat-scores-for-university-of-california-campuses-788665
BTW, if you click through to the individual college pages they have an interesting Self-Reported GPA/SAT/ACT Graph. I just wish they allowed looking at the points for each group individually because of all of the overplotting.
The test correlations are lower and almost identical for CSU (Table 1) compared to UCD (Table 5). Here is the relevant text from the paper:So the SBAC appears to be slightly inferior to the SAT as a predictor of first year GPA. That makes me suspicious of how the test ceilings compare. Probably not a big deal for CSU admissions, but it appears it may matter at UCD, and presumably even more so at more selective colleges. It would be good to have data for the respective test ceilings.
A notable flaw of this study IMHO is that it uses First Year GPA as a metric with no adjustment for course difficulty. Probably the best they could do with the available data though.
Regarding: 2. The SBAC is less biased against (i.e. gives better relative results for ; ) minorities and the poor.
This is where things get interesting. Given that reducing these gaps seems to be the holy grail of Current Year testing.
I believe this is mostly based on the Table A3 and A4 correlations (one nice feature of those tables is they have applicants in Panel A and enrollees in Panel B). Those offer a quick way to compare which measures relatively favor which races. For example, Hispanics do much better at HSGPA than any of the tests and better at the SBAC than the SAT. Whites appear to do relatively worse at the SBAC than the SAT (would love to understand how they pulled off that set of results). Blacks do roughly the same at the SBAC and SAT.
The SED (Socioeconomic Disadvantage) group does better on the SBAC than the SAT. Which would help explain the Hispanic and white results, but make the black results a bit of an anomaly. I think it would be helpful to try to tease out the true causal variables there. Do Hispanics do better on the SBAC because they tend to be poorer, or the opposite?
One thing I don't understand is how they got the inter-racial correlations (e.g. Hispanic/Black). If they are looking at individuals (as the N= in the tables indicates) shouldn't those correlations be 0 since the racial categories are exclusive in this paper? Any ideas?
Overall, I find that paper persuasive for using the SBAC for CSU admissions (except maybe Cal Poly SLO). This would allow a range of students not applying to other schools which require the SAT to apply to CSU without the additional trouble and expense of taking the SAT. And if the better results of Hispanics/poor are truly reflective of ability (which could be evaluated by a few years of following the admittees who got in due to that) might be a good way of giving them a better chance.
I find it less persuasive concerning using the SBAC for UC admissions (which IS the topic of the article in this iSteve post). Davis is at the lower end of UC SAT scores and any ceiling effect (or whatever it is causing the FYGPA/SBAC correlation to decrease relative to the SAT) would only become worse at the more selective campuses.
I think it would be sensible to consider allowing the SBAC for admissions at CSU (with SLO, and maybe SDS, getting to decide whether or not they want to). Then after a few years of that evaluate the outcomes of that before thinking about the other colleges.
Any thoughts?
P.S. This discussion of the SBAC in a gifted forum might be of interest: http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/topics/222705/all/SBAC.html
I ran into broken links, but the Internet Archive helped. Does anyone know if the absolute score results are comparable between grades? If so, that would make for some incredibly interesting data.Replies: @Alice
SBAC, like MAP, or even the Renaisaance Learning STAR or thr grade level ACTs aren’t going to tell anyone anything new.
But if you aren’t in education and haven’t seen the percentile rank curves, then there might be something for you to learn
yes, these tests are computer adaptive and yes their scores are on the same scale to be easily meaningful year over year.
But it doesn’t matter what the test is, the score curves are the same:
Looking at national average on our schools (not broken down by race or sx or..), on verbal/language exams, kids in the 95%ile percentile in grade 4 outperform the 50th %ile of grade 12. the 50th%ile -95%ile only increase by a standard deviation in their respective scores from middle of grade 6 to 12th. Their gains in 6th are basically past the inflection point, and hf of kids never learn anything after age 11..the gaps between the various percentile curves is constant over the years on these exams, exactly as you’d expect if “teaching” does nothing, and students just learn at their given rate.
the most interesting results however are when CC state standards by mastery are correlated to the percentiles. What we see is in grade 5 kids hitting state standards are in the 75%ile. that is, only a 1/4 are hitting the state standarda for their grade. and the drop-off keeps going. by 8th grade, only the top 10% are meeting standards.
individual gains are measurable, of course, by measuring changes, especially across percentile, but all SBAC is going to do is tell what we already know: not everyone is competent to go to college regardless of grades, our education system is not even keeping up with the state required basics even for the kids with high enough capacity to learn them, and while we can predict by grade 3 who is going to be college ready, kids can fail to live up to that–we are undereducating our brightest. so the gap is visible at grade 3, and only made smaller by retarding their growth. now what makes you think they’re gonna use that test?
http://mindsbasis.blogspot.com/2016/03/rasch-measure-of-intelligence-age-2-25.html
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-tXLt9eo5s6Q/VvlvcmScDkI/AAAAAAAAAMU/Vx12AxqJYcYiGwwNSxFp7jA9mbfqNLcDA/s640/rasch%2Bintelligence%2Bscore%2Bvs%2Bage%2Bremake%2B1.pngTaking that rhetorical question literally, what makes me think they might use that test is that it appears to give relatively better (compared to the SAT) results for Hispanics and the poor and relatively worse results for whites. I would really like to understand how they manage that. Is it just a ceiling effect, or is something else going on?
Just how high is the ceiling of the SBAC? Can it detect differences at +3 SD (roughly current SAT) or +4 SD (roughly pre-1995 SAT) for HS juniors/seniors?Replies: @Alice
"self-interest" YES
An example of NE Asian pragmatic self-interest in the largest US city would be their insurrection against Mayor de Blasio's ill-fated attempt to destroy NYC's mostly Asian prestigious high schools.Replies: @bomag, @Dave3, @Kronos, @bigdicknick
Perhaps, but is the solution going to stick? Blacks are leaving NYC, but are still a political force for the next two decades.
Native born blacks may be leaving NYC but they have more than been replaced by Caribbean blacks, especially in Brooklyn. The last bastion of native born blacks is Harlem which in turn is gentrifying. I believe that about ten percent of the Caribbean has departed for the US with a good portion winding up in Brooklyn.
Unfortunately, the Caribbeans are politically more adept than the native variety.
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/everybody-is-freaking-freelance-writers-scramble-make-sense-new-california-law-1248195
Apparently this is an underhanded lefty attempt to preserve jobs for its protected media pets as journalist jobs disappear. Otherwise, the left is terrified that it might lose its voice and its ability to control the narrative.
But leftists themselves are complaining about the law, because it has been noticed that women and POC tend to be freelancers instead of full-time employees at newspapers.
"Oft does evil hurt itself." --Tolkien.Replies: @Kronos
Sounds like something the US Supreme Court will kill immediately. That’s major intimidation of freedom of speech.
Ahem, don’t forget Carnegie Mellon, up there with the best, which to my cognizance has avoided devolving into an affirmative action racket. Not sure how Harvey Mudd, Rose Hulman, Cooper Union admissions works.
They were rejected by all of the elite private schools they applied to (though "wait-listed" by Caltech), even though their test scores were higher than the average admittees' scores (except at MIT and Caltech): this is possibly because their mother is Asian and the private schools can racially discriminate. (Note again the wait-listing at Caltech: Caltech does not racially discriminate, and, in fact, wait-listing was the correct ranking for them at Caltech -- they're close in ability level, but Caltech wold not have been the right fit. As a Caltech grad myself -- of course, there are no legacy admits at Caltech! -- I can testify that Caltech only wants kids who are insanely obsessed with STEM.)
Of course, the real problem here is that we no longer view colleges as providing a service for which the customers pay and then the student makes of that service what he will: it did work a bit like that circa 1950, when going to Harvard basically meant you were rich, not necessarily smart. Now, the college you go to is a proxy for how smart you are; what you actually learned is of secondary importance (though your major still matters a lot in terms of employability).
I take it the Canadians have a "flatter" system where there are a lot of okay universities rather than a small fraction of elite schools. You go to the school that is convenient, and it is up to you what you learn.Replies: @nebulafox, @Buzz Mohawk, @Hapalong Cassidy
“this is possibly because their mother is Asian and the private schools can racially discriminate.“
How did the schools know the mother was Asian unless you told them? I assume that you are White and your kids have American names. I guess I applaud your honesty. That’s more honest than I would have been in that situation.
Right before that principal left his job, I emailed him to thank him for using common sense, and helping my kid get on the right path. That older kid is now a Deans List student at a good college.Had the Madison School Board not changed that earlier zero tolerance policy, it could have destroyed my older kid’s future.Replies: @Dan Hayes, @bomag, @AnotherDad
I believe that the kid who called out the guard was also black. Correct? If so, it changes the whole story.
The solution will be obvious. First, ban all White males from public universities. Then ban them from all California universities. That is the short term solution. Mid term — extend this to White women.
Long term, California and the West Coast will be owned by the Chinese. So if we are lucky us White devils will be the hereditary servant class. If unlucky, the Uighur treatment.
Can make a stronger case now for China. But their one child policy has already limited them. And contradictions with communist rule and a market economy, and social divisions with a stronger economy in coastal economic hubs than elsewhere, etc. So rich individual Chinese can buy stuff (they changed the Vancouver Real Estate market) but don't see them owing CA, though they will own some prime real estate (though China has already made it harder to take large sums of money out of the country).
Once here, however, they are disposed to recreate the same problems here rather than embrace the cultural norms that make the USA desirable to them and others.
Would this do the trick?
(Also it’s really scary I remember this nearly 20 years onward.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHiFhU_yS9c
Kronos:
Native born blacks may be leaving NYC but they have more than been replaced by Caribbean blacks, especially in Brooklyn. The last bastion of native born blacks is Harlem which in turn is gentrifying. I believe that about ten percent of the Caribbean has departed for the US with a good portion winding up in Brooklyn.
Unfortunately, the Caribbeans are politically more adept than the native variety.
Harvey mudd used to be like caltech but its gone sjw. Complete with lots of AA admits complaining about the workload.
Cal Tech deserves acclaim except for the fact that it weighs the system for female admissions.Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
They want a reasonable supply of intelligent females on campus. Can you blame them? It has been stated here before that this is a smart breeding tactic the way they use it.
If you want both sexes, then you have to have two meritocratic scales of measurement. And you DO want both sexes.
Well, okay, maybe they could insist on a monastic great school of men, if that’s what they want, and yes, they could go out and find their chicks and try their luck around Pasadena. Hmm…
Agreed. Cal Tech had to game the system to achieve a noble and good end.
Carry on, CalTech.
Buzz Mohawk:
Agreed. Cal Tech had to game the system to achieve a noble and good end.
Has it ever happened, even once, in the last hundred years, that a Dem president's SCOTUS appointee has defected to the right? It seems it's only our guys who betray.Replies: @Dan Hayes, @res, @bomag, @Anonymous
This graphic from Wikipedia is helpful for thinking about this. The justices mostly slid right from 1935-1950, but other than that the trend is clearly as you say.
The University of California [Berkeley], indeed probably every other, flagship, public university, was founded to provide theoretical knowledge and practical training to applied science majors — for little or NO tuition.
A somewhat rarefied group of students.
The progressive imperative, that everyone should go to college (even people who are not college material) has led to, naturally, a huge political fight over who should be admitted to fill the limited number of seats.
It has led to science students paying some of the highest tuition in the school (“lab courses cost more”), while admission slots and scholarships are reserved for football players who major in basket weaving.
In fairness, at least the professor of football actually teaches the subject.
Correct.
Thanks for the confirmation. Of course if the mouthing-off kid had been white the onus/uproar would have been on him/her.
It’s not just that some kids get test-prep.
They also get private tutors and coaches, the least sucky public schools (or good privates), and so forth.
That’s many years of advantages even before such kids first get dropped off at Kaplan.
Just saying.
But if you aren't in education and haven't seen the percentile rank curves, then there might be something for you to learn
yes, these tests are computer adaptive and yes their scores are on the same scale to be easily meaningful year over year.
But it doesn't matter what the test is, the score curves are the same:
Looking at national average on our schools (not broken down by race or sx or..), on verbal/language exams, kids in the 95%ile percentile in grade 4 outperform the 50th %ile of grade 12. the 50th%ile -95%ile only increase by a standard deviation in their respective scores from middle of grade 6 to 12th. Their gains in 6th are basically past the inflection point, and hf of kids never learn anything after age 11..the gaps between the various percentile curves is constant over the years on these exams, exactly as you'd expect if "teaching" does nothing, and students just learn at their given rate.
the most interesting results however are when CC state standards by mastery are correlated to the percentiles. What we see is in grade 5 kids hitting state standards are in the 75%ile. that is, only a 1/4 are hitting the state standarda for their grade. and the drop-off keeps going. by 8th grade, only the top 10% are meeting standards.
individual gains are measurable, of course, by measuring changes, especially across percentile, but all SBAC is going to do is tell what we already know: not everyone is competent to go to college regardless of grades, our education system is not even keeping up with the state required basics even for the kids with high enough capacity to learn them, and while we can predict by grade 3 who is going to be college ready, kids can fail to live up to that--we are undereducating our brightest. so the gap is visible at grade 3, and only made smaller by retarding their growth. now what makes you think they're gonna use that test?Replies: @res
Thanks. This would be much more helpful with some pointers. I am not in education.
Thanks. Just how adaptive are the tests at the high end? The Davidson thread indicated that was limited.
Thanks. That is very helpful. Is there anywhere I can look at more detailed data on this? How do the math trajectories compare? How would you say both of those compare to these age trajectories (noting that +2 SD is about 98th percentile)?
http://mindsbasis.blogspot.com/2016/03/rasch-measure-of-intelligence-age-2-25.html
Taking that rhetorical question literally, what makes me think they might use that test is that it appears to give relatively better (compared to the SAT) results for Hispanics and the poor and relatively worse results for whites. I would really like to understand how they manage that. Is it just a ceiling effect, or is something else going on?
Just how high is the ceiling of the SBAC? Can it detect differences at +3 SD (roughly current SAT) or +4 SD (roughly pre-1995 SAT) for HS juniors/seniors?
The short answer to SBAC having relatively better results is 1) that the college bound white and "asian" kids aren't the only white and "asian" kids taking the test, so the averages for those racial groupings on SBAC are pulled down, 2) since SBAC is tied to state standards, which don't include e.g. precalculus or serious geometry, or the kind of data analysis on the science aections of the ACT, the test has a lower ceiling, 3) SBAC contains "constructed response" i.e. handwritten answers that allow for partial credit which buoys up the bottom, and 4) no test prep for SBAC because it doesn't exist (yet).
Re: SBAC and what it detects, remember that no test, not the WISC V or CogAt or anything is designed for differentiating 3 and 4 sigma from each other. SBAC is worse than that because what happens in school is kids gets dumber. That is, the garbage kids are taught in math and lang arts in middle school will actually show up as kids who were once 3 sigma above now having their scores actually drop--not just as a percentile ranking, but actually drop.
but assuming you've got your kid out of a traditional nominally high performing school and are getting him or her an education, the tests are still limited in several ways. 1) if a school won't pony up to buy the test data package, they won't keep their data over the years and the test won't remember where the student was. so it will take a few questions to reestablish the baseline. 2) at the high end, the kids will run out of questions. they will have literally seen them before. 3) because of how the adaptive process works, no 3rd grader is capable of getting the top score, even if they get all questions right and the test keeps adapting, because they have time and question limits as well as a scoring algorithm thats making averages over time.
i used to evaluate these testing programs esp. in math for schools. my experience was the tests did have enough data to compare you to a cohort of other kids with your score in your grade. then you cpuld ser how much growth your kid had relative to those other kids. here you could see the the difference ina 3rd and 4th sigma: kida who outgrew their 3sigma cohort by more than a standard deviation were probably 4 sigma or more away.
i suggest you send me mail directly and i can point you at a ton of resources.
email me at
allison at infocanvas dot net
and ill follow up.Replies: @res
You’re just saying what? Nothing of substance as far as I can discern.
Not even most prep school students get private tutors and coaches, nor Kaplan. I went to a very old, prestigious prep school and know. A small group did, but they tended to be those who were already at least at a 1200 baseline without studying much and needed an extra hundred points or more to get into an Ivy or close to it.
It takes base level intelligence to be able to take advantage of what a private school, tutors, “coaches” all offer (whatever the difference is between a “coach” and a “tutor”, I couldn’t tell you). There were plenty of inner city Black sports recruits at my private school, with all of the curriculum access that I and everyone else had, and they universally did pretty shitty on the SAT. I did much better and never had one “coach” nor Kaplan class. What I did was read constantly for years.
The tutor / Kaplan / private school excuse is a rationalization that untalented / lazy people make up to justify their lower intelligence and resultant shitty test scores. There are plenty of high scoring , hard working individuals in this nation with little to no advantages and that go on to achieve on those tests, in college, and beyond.
In short, the difference between an 800 score and a 1200 score for example (in 1998 or so when I took the SAT) can never be closed by any amount of “coaching” nor private school of any kind. Its a mixture of raw intelligence and hard work, year in and year out since early elementary school. The kind of person that uses the excuses that you did does not sit in the library in his free time for years on end.
You get the results that you worked for. If you are really shitty and stupid, instead of accepting the results of your personal effort like a man, you then fill everyone else’s ears or eyes with loser complaints that are trying to hide the fact that you hate yourself deep down for not applying yourself better.
Paleo Liberal:
Thanks for the confirmation. Of course if the mouthing-off kid had been white the onus/uproar would have been on him/her.
As some people here would tell you, only those privileged students with private Kaplan coaches can be taught how to use a library card.
Is it too much to expect that North East Asians will realize that it's not in their self-interests to be part & parcel of the SJW coalition? These are pragmatic people so pragmatism alone should cause them to break off.Replies: @anon, @Kronos, @Robert Dolan, @bomag, @Anonymous, @An, @ATBOTL, @Fun
It doesn’t make sense to throw your lot in with the losing side.
If you didn't learn what you were supposed to learn in your HS classes or you are not that bright, that's another story.Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @Neil Templeton
My only point is that I was unaware of Barrons or even that test prep was expected. Later, when I took the LSAT, I was aware, and I prepared appropriately.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/Graph_of_Martin-Quinn_Scores_of_Supreme_Court_Justices_1937-Now.pngReplies: @International Jew
Wow, that graph is worthy of an iSteve blog post.
https://www.unz.com/isteve/kavanaugh-is-trumps-pick/#comment-2410291
Note that there are two versions of the chart which have some big differences I have not been able to figure out.
There is some discussion in that thread. The changing composition of the court during the 1960s is especially interesting. The data is regularly updated at http://mqscores.lsa.umich.edu/measures.php
The current version of the data (the chart is older) goes through October 2018 which includes Kavanaugh who is around 0.4 (Kennedy was about that in 2017, but more liberal during Obama's second term).Replies: @International Jew
Only 3% have smartphones?!Replies: @Anonymous, @Oleaginous Outrager, @Anon, @mmack, @bigdicknick, @Alden, @HammerJack
https://www.rt.com/op-ed/471376-guardian-diversity-white-kids/
People are now lamenting the demise of diversity in London.
Also RT will soon be blocked in the USA and UK, I’ll bet.
I suggest we caption it “Power Corrupts.”
Demography or Demoni-graphics?
People say ‘demography is destiny’, but if so, Latin America would be ruled by browns and Jews would be powerless as a small minority.
When it comes to political power, what matters more than demographics may be ‘demoni-graphics’, or the power(and art) of demonizing certain groups. Hate has a unifying and directional impact. A master doesn’t fear his pack of dogs because he directs their ire at a certain prey.
Then, the real problem of America is not whites becoming the minority but whites having lost the power of demoni-graphics to another group, namely the Jews who use their power of demonization to unite and direct the ire of non-whites(and even many whites) toward whites.
Now, suppose whites held the power of demoni-graphics via control of academia, media, finance, and etcs. Then, they would have less to worry from non-white immigrants who can be made to respect whites and hate whatever whites want them to hate. In current America, immigrants are urged to love Jews and hate/blame whites. Deify Jews, demonize whites. Because Jews control demonization, they can be a small minority and still have the power and glory.
There is no cosmic rule that says non-whites must be anti-white. They are made anti-white by the power of demonization that is held by Jews.
But if whites had the power that Jews now have and used that power to do to Jews what Jews are doing to whites — demonize and scapegoat them — , then whites need not fear non-white immigrants, even if they become the majority. Whites can unify, shape, and direct their ‘fellow goy’ ire at the Jews and blame Jews for everything. Such hate will unify the goyim.
Why do Latino whites have the power despite being the minority in most Latin American nations? They still control the power of demoni-graphics. They use their power to place all blame on ‘gringo’ or ‘yanqui’. So, the brown masses reluctantly unite with their Conqui masters against Evil Gringo.
As long they hold the power of demoni-graphics, they are safe. But if they were to lose it, and if a new voice were to mainly demonize white conqui elites of Latin America, they will be in big trouble.
Sooner or later the ruling class will have to make a choice: either it systematically disempowers white people or it shuts out a larger and larger share of Asians.
The most fair option: allowing true meritocracy, is not going to be allowed. Because that would set back black/brown diversity 50+ years in elite institutions.
10 years ago the answer would have been obvious: just cut the white percentage. But the ruling class is terrified of rising white consciousness. This could be a spark to a much wider conflagration. Something's gotta give. I doubt Asians will just sit pretty and watch forever.Replies: @Peterike, @HenryA, @Prof. Woland, @J
Sooner or later the ruling class will have to make a choice
The choice has been made, and it is obvious. Externally, America has chosen to engage China’s peaceful ascent by isolating it and fighting a “trade war”. Internally, its elite institutions like Harvard, are torturing the SAT entrance exam to keep them out, as much as that is acceptable in America.
America has several Think Tanks with smart thinkers mapping out the future. How will this end? They are not saying. May be the end is unhappy.
https://youtu.be/BK4Acc8jbt4
(Also it’s really scary I remember this nearly 20 years onward.)Replies: @The Alarmist
FWIW, I remember this one from 30 years ago. A few years back a series called The 100 came out, and the first thing that popped into my head when I saw Paige Turco was, “Dangerous Dress!”
Full disclosure: This was at a 90% White student body (some Chinese and Indian students who were children of Doctors or Engineers, very few Diverse or ¡Vibrant! students at all) High School in the far southwestern Chicago suburbs. I’m sure the student body has become more Diverse or ¡Vibrant! In the ensuing decades.Replies: @Hodag, @eah
There is now the PSAT 8/9 designed for 8th and 9th graders. I had lil Hodag take it last year as a fifth grader to get them some practice. My testing location was at Northwestern law school and the crowd was 30% SE Asian, 30% south asian, 10% eastern European immigrant and 10% all American.
Full disclosure: This was at a 90% White student body (some Chinese and Indian students who were children of Doctors or Engineers, very few Diverse or ¡Vibrant! students at all) High School in the far southwestern Chicago suburbs. I’m sure the student body has become more Diverse or ¡Vibrant! In the ensuing decades.Replies: @Hodag, @eah
…a BIG push for college bound students to take the PSAT in your Junior year as a prep for the SAT.
Oh come on man — are you seriously suggesting that taking the PSAT, which I, and probably everyone else at my HS who was planning on attending college, took (as I recall, we took the PSAT in the Fall of our junior year, and the SAT in the Spring), was the equivalent of the organized test prep of today? — in fact, the PSAT wasn’t really all that optional, was it? — it was, and I think still is (?), used to select National Merit Scholars, which opened the way to further honors, scholarships, etc — this means that nearly everyone who took the SAT also routinely took the PSAT — right? — given that, how was the PSAT equivalent to the über-organized test prep so many students participate in today? — I just don’t see the equivalence at all — sorry — yet another failed “gotcha” reply.
What happened to the NE Asians (Chinese, Japanese, Koreans)as I would expect them to be among the heavy-hitter attendees?
What happened to the NE Asians (Chinese, Japanese, Koreans) as I would expect them to be in greatest attendence?
Generally agree, but up and down the line our smart people are invested in doing stupid things, such as importing foreigners, sterilizing themselves, letting the welfare state become a default setting, etc.
Long term, California and the West Coast will be owned by the Chinese. So if we are lucky us White devils will be the hereditary servant class. If unlucky, the Uighur treatment.Replies: @RAZ
That was the worry in the 80’s about the Japanese. The Japanese were strong then, but in retrospect it seems kind of silly. Less than half the population of the US, less than half the GDP, no physical resources, etc. They bought movie studios, some prime real estate, etc. But their economy has now been pretty stagnant for a long time. And no one fears Japan, Inc.
Can make a stronger case now for China. But their one child policy has already limited them. And contradictions with communist rule and a market economy, and social divisions with a stronger economy in coastal economic hubs than elsewhere, etc. So rich individual Chinese can buy stuff (they changed the Vancouver Real Estate market) but don’t see them owing CA, though they will own some prime real estate (though China has already made it harder to take large sums of money out of the country).
Wtf? Someone who can’t get a combined 700/1600 on the SAT shouldn’t have completed their freshman year of high school…
We’re still all biting our nails in anticipation of the long awaited Wakandan and Aztlanian breakthrough in a new branch of mathematical sciences.
The results of that particular experiment in a multicultural learning environment.
https://www.wired.com/2015/05/los-angeles-edtech/
Has it ever happened, even once, in the last hundred years, that a Dem president's SCOTUS appointee has defected to the right? It seems it's only our guys who betray.Replies: @Dan Hayes, @res, @bomag, @Anonymous
And in a couple cases I was watching this session, the four libs vote consistently as a block while peeling off one of the alleged conservatives to push us further down the drain.
I find the particulars of the case you linked quite galling: a guy submits a fraudulent federal I9 form to gain state employment, but the justices don’t want that fraudulent form used in a state fraud prosecution. Huh?
I prefer my assortative mating to be done by the intellectually gifted rather than the former student council officers that populate the Ivies.
Carry on, CalTech.
Right before that principal left his job, I emailed him to thank him for using common sense, and helping my kid get on the right path. That older kid is now a Deans List student at a good college.Had the Madison School Board not changed that earlier zero tolerance policy, it could have destroyed my older kid’s future.Replies: @Dan Hayes, @bomag, @AnotherDad
Let’s not be so beholden to schools and what they have to offer.
From my experience, dropouts and expel-ees do as well as they would have otherwise.
"See, we're not totally alone in this! Ching Shang and Durka Rakesh Brijadar will surely come to our aid on education, and taxes right?" (Nervous laughter follows).
Asians don't follow the rules anyways. They don't care about you. Time to suck it up and accept the truth. Only white people can stand up for white people. Stop trying to get others on your side, it will not happen.
You put it better than I did congratulations sir.Replies: @ATBOTL
We need to delve into this psychology more. What makes these white men search so desperately for easy ways out? These are commenters on a more or less white nationalist blog of all places, and yet they seem to have an aversion for any real collective white action to defend our interests. You don’t hear this kind of cucky talk from nationalists in Europe.
What makes a person redpilled (life experience, genetics, etc.)
Group actions. etc.
I would recommend the Z blog. The people there seem pretty un-cucked.
The Alt-Right wants to face reality in terms of race and ethnicity; live with and take care of those already in the country.
SJWs have shown themselves to be race replacers par excellence, and Asians may wish they chose differently when the SJWs start throwing them overboard to make way for the future African tsunami.Replies: @ATBOTL
Hell no. Let’s be clear, the alt-right wants to repatriate post 1965 immigrants and their descendants. That is the bare minmum necessary to secure a white majority for the future.
admitting stupid people just turns everything into an arms race. Now you often need a graduate degree to get a decent job. You shouldn’t need to spend 200k on a m7 mba to move you are smart. The gmat score should be proof enough. The war on noticing is super expensive.
"self-interest" YES
An example of NE Asian pragmatic self-interest in the largest US city would be their insurrection against Mayor de Blasio's ill-fated attempt to destroy NYC's mostly Asian prestigious high schools.Replies: @bomag, @Dave3, @Kronos, @bigdicknick
In “troublesome inheritance” Wade speculates that Asians are probably wired to be more conformist than whites which makes sense when you think of the excesses of Mao’s china, or the DPRK. Could a non-asian society like DPRK exist for any length of time?
They will likely be the high skilled servants of whichever group is most powerful in a society.
https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/02/26/article-2284741-184E3A0B000005DC-708_306x423.jpg
Look at the bright side: Air travel will wither on the vine, delaying Greenhouse Catastrophe by at least 10 years.
At the end of the day, the will to power is all that matters to many of these people. Science is really just more of the White man's voodoo that keeps people down.Replies: @El Dato
It is. I learned about it from this iSteve comment by herp derp last year:
https://www.unz.com/isteve/kavanaugh-is-trumps-pick/#comment-2410291
Note that there are two versions of the chart which have some big differences I have not been able to figure out.
There is some discussion in that thread. The changing composition of the court during the 1960s is especially interesting. The data is regularly updated at http://mqscores.lsa.umich.edu/measures.php
The current version of the data (the chart is older) goes through October 2018 which includes Kavanaugh who is around 0.4 (Kennedy was about that in 2017, but more liberal during Obama’s second term).
Wasn’t Emmett Till lynched for airdropping a dick pic to some soccer mom?
This.
Political allocation of all the goodies is to be expected. Only in unitary nation can you hope to keep that it bay under some sort of notion of “meritocracy”. In a diverse society … fuggetaboutit.
I have no crystal ball to tell how this particular battle will play out. If all else was equal you’d bet on the more numerous “Hispanics”. But the Mexicans care way, way less about education than the Asians, and the Hispanic “leaders” might think keeping a high reputation for the schools with a Mexican quota that makes sure *their* kids get in is just peachy. A reasonable deal might involve fatter Mexican quotas for the government jobs in return for larger Asian presence in the universities.
But the bottom line here is with diversity in a democracy ethnic political allocation is a given.
Right before that principal left his job, I emailed him to thank him for using common sense, and helping my kid get on the right path. That older kid is now a Deans List student at a good college.Had the Madison School Board not changed that earlier zero tolerance policy, it could have destroyed my older kid’s future.Replies: @Dan Hayes, @bomag, @AnotherDad
Paleo Liberal–you have a wish list of items for the Madison schools, both that you desire generally and those you wish specifically for the desired education of your kids.
But clearly the policies you object to exist because of the political/educational desires of someone else.
Instead of “wishing and hoping”, why not the obvious: Educational choice. You send your kids to schools that have–more or less–policies and programs that seem reasonable to you. And–in the event there are enough PC loons to support it–the PC loons send their kids to a school with the PC policies they support.
This is the gist of it. “Liberals” yelp about “diversity” but what they really mean is “you must conform to our PC views.”
With “diversity” we don’t have a common culture anymore. We don’t agree on basic discipline, much less “heroes” and “values” or any sort of cirriculum. So let’s not impose “education” that many parents find ridiculous to toxic on kids and rather let the market work and sort out what sort of education parents want for their kids and over time what ciriculum and methods actually work.
https://www.unz.com/isteve/kavanaugh-is-trumps-pick/#comment-2410291
Note that there are two versions of the chart which have some big differences I have not been able to figure out.
There is some discussion in that thread. The changing composition of the court during the 1960s is especially interesting. The data is regularly updated at http://mqscores.lsa.umich.edu/measures.php
The current version of the data (the chart is older) goes through October 2018 which includes Kavanaugh who is around 0.4 (Kennedy was about that in 2017, but more liberal during Obama's second term).Replies: @International Jew
Nixon and Ford picked some real clunkers.
But Eisenhower takes the cake for ruefully admitting that his two biggest mistakes were sitting on the SCOTUS, Warren and Brennan!
The Left will never square this circle, but they will die trying (and take as many with them as possible).
Interesting that East and South Asians are not generally separated out. They look different, but both do well. Though East Asians, more so.
Does being Filipino gain points in college admissions?
An aside: About 25 yrs ago in construction/contracting my company was told we needed to subcontract for a large project at a Pharma company. We needed to work through a company owned by an Indian (South Asian). The Pharma company needed to show X amount of dollars of the project was going to minority contractors. End result: We billed through the Indian owned company which then marked up our pricing. They did nothing for what they earned on this other than act as the middleman for the billing. The Pharma company paid more for the work, but got to look like a good corporate citizen that could say they used minority contractors. I became a Libertarian after this.Replies: @anon, @Justvisiting
The minority contractor government contract scam has become _big_ business today.
Enterprising minority business owners create front companies for this purpose–in a wide variety of fields. They don’t need to know anything about anything–they subcontract out all the work to real (white) experts–including filling out the applications for the contract!
They do have one skill, however–bribing politicians when necessary. Of course even then they have to have white accountants cook the books for them.
The “affirmative action” skim is wide and deep.
International Jew:
But Eisenhower takes the cake for ruefully admitting that his two biggest mistakes were sitting on the SCOTUS, Warren and Brennan!
Asians have taken this to a new level, but test prep has always been around.
Duh -- isn't that basically what I said? -- yet you seem to think your comment was some kind of "gotcha" -- weird.Replies: @AnonAnon
A single day or weekend long test prep is white people test prep. Asians send their kids to half day Saturdays for 12 weeks or during the summers for five days a week summer boot camps for 8-12 weeks. They’re spending thousands.
But is there any gas in the tank for such a revolt? Or have the former bourgeoisie been sufficiently pacified against much of a protest?
I’ve heard of 9th graders now taking several AP courses. Even AP Chemistry.
How did the schools know the mother was Asian unless you told them? I assume that you are White and your kids have American names. I guess I applaud your honesty. That’s more honest than I would have been in that situation.Replies: @PhysicistDave
Hapalong Cassidy asked me:
Their last name is hyphenated, so it is obvious.
In any case, I am pretty much at the stage of “Bring it all down!” Don’t help the system, don’t help the cops, treat your neighbors and family fairly, but do not lift a finger to make the system work.
Death to Progressivism and to the society the Progressives created!
They will likely be the high skilled servants of whichever group is most powerful in a society.Replies: @Autochthon
Notice the trademark “slanted eyes….”
Ha! Their surname is hyphenated! And you came here to complain about leftist idiocy?! Go write a piece for the New York Times or The Huffington Post, why don’t you? You can invoke the old chestnut that it’s okay to destroy America and abandon Western culture so long as the dusky people enjoying breakfast among the ruins were admitted “legally.” Include something about homosexuals being the nicest people you know, and fine “parents,” too….
You, on the other hand, are "white trash" descended from a long line of subhuman scum.
Yes, I would like to deport you to some hellhole country and let in a worthy immigrant in exchange.
Not all human beings are of equal worth.
Calm down.
I’m not talking about the guy who can get bombed the night before the college entrance exam and still score in the top 1% (I knew a guy like that).
I’m talking about the big blob, one sigma outside of the mean.
Within that group, advantages can make a big difference, in terms of shifting scores to the right.
A “coach” goes beyond helping with the homework. He’s more of a strategist and manager:
For example, someone who can get Brittany into USC by Photoshopping her image into the foreground of a soccer game, action shot.
Actually tbh I know nothing about what’s on offer today from for-profit outfits, or what an average HS does nowadays to help students prepare — I have a niece who’s a 2nd year UC student and a nephew who’s a junior in HS (also in CA) — I have never discussed this kind of thing with them (which I guess reflects my own attitude that the SAT/ACT tests are “no big deal”) — but I will ask now.
It’s just a return to the old days, when good jobs and school places were doled out according to who your parents were, not ‘merit’.
Has it ever happened, even once, in the last hundred years, that a Dem president's SCOTUS appointee has defected to the right? It seems it's only our guys who betray.Replies: @Dan Hayes, @res, @bomag, @Anonymous
He just wants a quiet life, and who can blame him? The people you should be angry at are the ones who tried to destroy his life and family.
http://mindsbasis.blogspot.com/2016/03/rasch-measure-of-intelligence-age-2-25.html
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-tXLt9eo5s6Q/VvlvcmScDkI/AAAAAAAAAMU/Vx12AxqJYcYiGwwNSxFp7jA9mbfqNLcDA/s640/rasch%2Bintelligence%2Bscore%2Bvs%2Bage%2Bremake%2B1.pngTaking that rhetorical question literally, what makes me think they might use that test is that it appears to give relatively better (compared to the SAT) results for Hispanics and the poor and relatively worse results for whites. I would really like to understand how they manage that. Is it just a ceiling effect, or is something else going on?
Just how high is the ceiling of the SBAC? Can it detect differences at +3 SD (roughly current SAT) or +4 SD (roughly pre-1995 SAT) for HS juniors/seniors?Replies: @Alice
Hi Res, I’m happy to provide more info.
The short answer to SBAC having relatively better results is 1) that the college bound white and “asian” kids aren’t the only white and “asian” kids taking the test, so the averages for those racial groupings on SBAC are pulled down, 2) since SBAC is tied to state standards, which don’t include e.g. precalculus or serious geometry, or the kind of data analysis on the science aections of the ACT, the test has a lower ceiling, 3) SBAC contains “constructed response” i.e. handwritten answers that allow for partial credit which buoys up the bottom, and 4) no test prep for SBAC because it doesn’t exist (yet).
Re: SBAC and what it detects, remember that no test, not the WISC V or CogAt or anything is designed for differentiating 3 and 4 sigma from each other. SBAC is worse than that because what happens in school is kids gets dumber. That is, the garbage kids are taught in math and lang arts in middle school will actually show up as kids who were once 3 sigma above now having their scores actually drop–not just as a percentile ranking, but actually drop.
but assuming you’ve got your kid out of a traditional nominally high performing school and are getting him or her an education, the tests are still limited in several ways. 1) if a school won’t pony up to buy the test data package, they won’t keep their data over the years and the test won’t remember where the student was. so it will take a few questions to reestablish the baseline. 2) at the high end, the kids will run out of questions. they will have literally seen them before. 3) because of how the adaptive process works, no 3rd grader is capable of getting the top score, even if they get all questions right and the test keeps adapting, because they have time and question limits as well as a scoring algorithm thats making averages over time.
i used to evaluate these testing programs esp. in math for schools. my experience was the tests did have enough data to compare you to a cohort of other kids with your score in your grade. then you cpuld ser how much growth your kid had relative to those other kids. here you could see the the difference ina 3rd and 4th sigma: kida who outgrew their 3sigma cohort by more than a standard deviation were probably 4 sigma or more away.
i suggest you send me mail directly and i can point you at a ton of resources.
email me at
allison at infocanvas dot net
and ill follow up.
3. is interesting. How objective do you think they manage to be with that? That must make grading significantly more labor intensive. Is it possible different groups respond differently to this feature? Has there been any research looking at that?I believe the pre-1995 SAT was able to detect this difference.That is depressing. Do you think the decrease is real, or is it just statistical noise? For example, if you looked at the change over time for a group of comparable ability students following the same (poor) educational program would you expect to see a consistent drop, a normal curve with a small but positive mean, or ...?Great insights. Thanks. I had not realized how expensive (to the school) the SBAC was. This article talks about the expense (the article is very negative on the SBAC, I'd be interested if you have a counterpoint): https://ctmirror.org/category/ct-viewpoints/cost-of-sbac-testing-in-connecticut-is-unconscionable-unnecessary/
I think this undermines the accessibility argument somewhat--unless the test is already required.So would it be correct to say the SBAC could distinguish those groups in the lower grades, but not in the later grades where 3 SD is at (above?) the ceiling? This sounds a bit like the SMPY administering the SAT at age 13 to get additional ceiling out of it. Looking at the Rasch curve in comment 173 I would expect about another 0.5 SD at the top from taking the SAT at age 13 rather than 17. With another 0.5 SD possible at age 10.
I am a bit unclear about what you meant by "growth" there. Is it just the increase in score? If so, are you just saying the test is not normed out that high? Or are you referring to physical growth (e.g. height)? The latter is how I initially interpreted your comment. If so, I find that extremely interesting for multiple reasons. Given your background I wonder if you have any observations about:
- How much do physical and mental growth correlate across the ages?
- Are the relative trajectories consistent?
- Do you notice patterns between early/late maturation and final result? Some people believe later maturation tends to result in greater outcomes (e.g. see the trajectories from ages 11-25 for the different ability levels in that Rasch graphic).Thanks for the offer. Let me think about that. I try to stay anonymous here given that I espouse some extremely controversial views (especially for where I live ; ). Are there issues with posting the references in a comment here? Would it be possible to give a few here?
Thanks again! Your comment gave me some good food for thought.
Autochthon wrote to me:
My wife has a couple of doctorates and is desceended from the founder of Beijing Daxue.
You, on the other hand, are “white trash” descended from a long line of subhuman scum.
Yes, I would like to deport you to some hellhole country and let in a worthy immigrant in exchange.
Not all human beings are of equal worth.
California Governor Newsom, recently veto’d a bill that if he had signed it, would have created a state level tax deduction for contributions to California’s 529 College Savings Plan. It passed the assembly unopposed, however rumors say the Governor is not a fan of the State Treasure Fiona Ma who is of Chinese descent and a strong pusher of the bill. There is further conjecture the veto was centered around who would benefit the most, I.E. Asian and White parents who actually save for their kids college. Asians even more so then Whites.
https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/networth/article/Newsom-vetoes-bill-that-would-have-created-a-14520941.php
“Subhuman Scum”
Got that, everyone?
Psychology in general.
What makes a person redpilled (life experience, genetics, etc.)
Group actions. etc.
I would recommend the Z blog. The people there seem pretty un-cucked.
The short answer to SBAC having relatively better results is 1) that the college bound white and "asian" kids aren't the only white and "asian" kids taking the test, so the averages for those racial groupings on SBAC are pulled down, 2) since SBAC is tied to state standards, which don't include e.g. precalculus or serious geometry, or the kind of data analysis on the science aections of the ACT, the test has a lower ceiling, 3) SBAC contains "constructed response" i.e. handwritten answers that allow for partial credit which buoys up the bottom, and 4) no test prep for SBAC because it doesn't exist (yet).
Re: SBAC and what it detects, remember that no test, not the WISC V or CogAt or anything is designed for differentiating 3 and 4 sigma from each other. SBAC is worse than that because what happens in school is kids gets dumber. That is, the garbage kids are taught in math and lang arts in middle school will actually show up as kids who were once 3 sigma above now having their scores actually drop--not just as a percentile ranking, but actually drop.
but assuming you've got your kid out of a traditional nominally high performing school and are getting him or her an education, the tests are still limited in several ways. 1) if a school won't pony up to buy the test data package, they won't keep their data over the years and the test won't remember where the student was. so it will take a few questions to reestablish the baseline. 2) at the high end, the kids will run out of questions. they will have literally seen them before. 3) because of how the adaptive process works, no 3rd grader is capable of getting the top score, even if they get all questions right and the test keeps adapting, because they have time and question limits as well as a scoring algorithm thats making averages over time.
i used to evaluate these testing programs esp. in math for schools. my experience was the tests did have enough data to compare you to a cohort of other kids with your score in your grade. then you cpuld ser how much growth your kid had relative to those other kids. here you could see the the difference ina 3rd and 4th sigma: kida who outgrew their 3sigma cohort by more than a standard deviation were probably 4 sigma or more away.
i suggest you send me mail directly and i can point you at a ton of resources.
email me at
allison at infocanvas dot net
and ill follow up.Replies: @res
Hi Alice, Thanks!
OK. 1. makes sense for the full test population averages. But I don’t think it applies to the study results showing Hispanics doing relatively better than whites on the SBAC than SAT since those results are looking at the same groups (CSU and UC Davis) of students.
Those sound like reasons for the study differences in whites and Hispanics, but given those, I would expect the results for blacks to be better on the SBAC as well. For some reason the effect is much greater for Hispanics.
3. is interesting. How objective do you think they manage to be with that? That must make grading significantly more labor intensive. Is it possible different groups respond differently to this feature? Has there been any research looking at that?
I believe the pre-1995 SAT was able to detect this difference.
That is depressing. Do you think the decrease is real, or is it just statistical noise? For example, if you looked at the change over time for a group of comparable ability students following the same (poor) educational program would you expect to see a consistent drop, a normal curve with a small but positive mean, or …?
Great insights. Thanks. I had not realized how expensive (to the school) the SBAC was. This article talks about the expense (the article is very negative on the SBAC, I’d be interested if you have a counterpoint): https://ctmirror.org/category/ct-viewpoints/cost-of-sbac-testing-in-connecticut-is-unconscionable-unnecessary/
I think this undermines the accessibility argument somewhat–unless the test is already required.
So would it be correct to say the SBAC could distinguish those groups in the lower grades, but not in the later grades where 3 SD is at (above?) the ceiling? This sounds a bit like the SMPY administering the SAT at age 13 to get additional ceiling out of it. Looking at the Rasch curve in comment 173 I would expect about another 0.5 SD at the top from taking the SAT at age 13 rather than 17. With another 0.5 SD possible at age 10.
I am a bit unclear about what you meant by “growth” there. Is it just the increase in score? If so, are you just saying the test is not normed out that high? Or are you referring to physical growth (e.g. height)? The latter is how I initially interpreted your comment. If so, I find that extremely interesting for multiple reasons. Given your background I wonder if you have any observations about:
– How much do physical and mental growth correlate across the ages?
– Are the relative trajectories consistent?
– Do you notice patterns between early/late maturation and final result? Some people believe later maturation tends to result in greater outcomes (e.g. see the trajectories from ages 11-25 for the different ability levels in that Rasch graphic).
Thanks for the offer. Let me think about that. I try to stay anonymous here given that I espouse some extremely controversial views (especially for where I live ; ). Are there issues with posting the references in a comment here? Would it be possible to give a few here?
Thanks again! Your comment gave me some good food for thought.