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Madonna Calls for Death to the New York Times
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From the New York Times:

Madonna at Sixty
The original queen of pop on aging, inspiration and why she refuses to cede control.

Vanessa G.

By Vanessa Grigoriadis
June 5, 2019

From Madonna’s Instagram Account:

To say that I was disappointed in the article would be an understatement-
It seems. You cant fix society
And its endless need to diminish,
Disparage or degrade that which they know is good. Especially strong independent women. The journalist who wrote this article spent days and hours and months with me and was invited into a world which many people dont get to see, but chose to focus on trivial and superficial matters such as the ethnicity of my stand in or the fabric of my curtains and never ending comments about my age which would never have been mentioned had I been a MAN! Women have a really hard time being the champions of other women even if. they are posing as intellectual feminists.
Im sorry i spent 5 minutes with her. It makes me feel raped. And yes I’m allowed to use that analogy having been raped at the age of 19. Further proof that the venerable N.Y.T. Is one of the founding fathers of the Patriarchy. And I say—-DEATH TO THE PATRIARCHY woven deep into the fabric of Society. I will never stop fighting to eradicate it. 💔

Younger woman snarks about older woman; PATRIARCHY to blame.

 
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  1. Grigoriadis has a beautiful, natural set of bazongas.

    What was she writing about again?

    • LOL: Colin Wright
    • Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson 3

    Grigoriadis has a beautiful, natural set of bazongas.
     
    How do you know? First hand experience? (Okay pun intended.)
    , @PSR
    Shoot, the first comment here preempted me. What the heck, I was going to say the chick who wrote this is hotter than Madonna ever was. That’s why old Madonna is pissed.
    , @Escher
    https://youtu.be/hoS1MCF8AeI
    , @Neoconned
    She's wearing a pushup bra or something...m.heres a pic of her at a different angle:

    https://media.guestofaguest.com/t_card_medium/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Vanessa_Grigoriadis1.jpg

    Not so um,.cough ample.....
    , @Cloudbuster
    Her appeal varies widely depending upon the photograph.

    https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Vanessa+Grigoriadis&atb=v109-1&iar=images&iax=images&ia=images
    , @FeelTheBern
    Yes...the patriarchy does have nice titties.
  2. 1. The New York times is dead although it staggers on like a Zombie
    2. The article was very flattering to the old broad
    3. From the article:

    She told me she wasn’t yet over the release of her last album, “Rebel Heart,” in 2015, which sold less than her others. The songs had leaked online several months early, far from perfection. “There are no words to describe how devastated I was,” she said. “It took me a while to recover, and put such a bad taste in my mouth I wasn’t really interested in making music.” She added, “I felt raped.” It didn’t feel right to explain that women these days were trying not to use that word metaphorically.

    Poor Madonna. But the one good thing I learned is that Guy Ritchie took 75 mil in the divorce! Hear here for equality.

    • Replies: @ricpic
    An album that tanks is rape?!
    , @Hypnotoad666

    Im sorry i spent 5 minutes with her. It makes me feel raped.
     

    “It took me a while to recover, and put such a bad taste in my mouth I wasn’t really interested in making music.” She added, “I felt raped.”
     
    In the 80's she was "Like a Virgin." Now she feels constantly raped. Getting old really does suck if you're a female pop star.
    , @Cloudbuster
    She sure feels raped a lot.

    It didn’t feel right to explain that women these days were trying not to use that word metaphorically.

    That's such a classically female passive-aggressive thing to do. "It didn't feel right to explain ... but instead I'll point it out in the story for thousands of people to see."

    , @Autochthon
    Still, you have to wonder if Ritchie reckons the $75,000,000.00 makes up for the other things he doubtless took from the marriage: human papilloma virus and herpes....
    , @Colin Wright
    '... She added, “I felt raped.” ...'

    And she felt raped in the article. And presumably, she felt raped when she was raped. Madonna seems to feel raped a lot.
    , @Olorin
    Thanks for digging out that...erm...nugget. No way I'd click on an NYT link.

    Maybe Madonna could come back at Ms. Glamor-Shot Gazongas by saying that commenting on how other women speak leaves a bad taste in the mouth. The taste of rape.

    After all, isn't Madam GSB using the pen--so phallic, so mightier than the phallic sword--to score points against an old broad whose glory days are waning?

    Or maybe the mouth-taste Madonna was referring to involved

    rape (n.2)

    kind of cruciferous plant (Brassica napus), late 14c., from Old French rape, from Latin rapa, rapum "turnip," cognate with Greek hrapys "rape," Old Church Slavonic repa, Lithuanian ropė, Middle Dutch roeve, Old High German ruoba, German Rübe "rape, turnip," perhaps a common borrowing from a non-IE word (de Vaan). Usually grown to feed sheep, an oil made from it is used in cooking (see canola).
     
  3. And I say—-DEATH TO THE PATRIARCHY woven deep into the fabric of Society. I will never stop fighting to eradicate it.

    By ”it”, does Madonna mean THE PATRIARCHY or Society? Or, why not, the ”fabric of Society”? Does the ”fabric of Society” happen to be velvet and Material Girl is more of a satin woman?

  4. Younger woman snarks about older woman; PATRIARCHY to blame; DEATH the demanded remedy.

    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    Grigoriadis is 45, not exactly young. The picture of her heading this post is very flattering; look at others and you'll get a more realistic impression.
  5. 216 says:

    A cursory search indicates that Madonna is worth hundreds of millions of dollars.

    She never once targeted the hatred of Sarah Jeong. She probably never will.

    Sign me up for the AOC 70% tax rate on the super-rich. They have done nothing but spread perversion, while being parasites on the largely white conservative middle-class parents that paid for most music purchases.

    • Replies: @SunBakedSuburb
    "Sign me up for the AOC 70% tax rate on the super-rich."

    Yep, if by super-rich you mean the billionaire class.
    , @Sextus Empiricus
    It has always puzzled me that people who achieve great popular acclaim and massive fortunes in youth won’t let it go as they age - just live a comfortable life of ease and pleasure on the millions that they’ve been blessed with by capturing the attention of the great mass for a brief moment in time.

    Madonna, honey, you had the attention of the world for a brief window - something most of us will never know. You’ve been blessed with enormous wealth. But like everyone from the nameless cipher to Napoleon and Alexander, you are going to get old (if you’re lucky) and die. Take it easy on Vanessa, her journey is just beginning.
  6. “Her music is so generic she should be called MacDonna”.

    If you know where that money quote came from you are almost certainly a UT Austin graduate.

    Part of me wants to feel for her just a little bit, but if she is really so clueless as to not realize women are appalling Bitches to each other AS A RULE, then…..

    Well, actually I feel for her (just a little) for being used and being stupid. And if I am feeling sorry for Madonna the end times might actually be upon us.

  7. Madonna needs to see the movie “Sunset Boulevard”. Take several hours pondering the character “Norma Desmond”, and then spend several hours looking in the mirror.

    • LOL: Sextus Empiricus
    • Replies: @Henry's Cat
    That's exactly the picture that came to mind too. Except the claim, "I'm BIG...it's the music industry that got small.' would have greater validity that Norma's.
    , @Prester John
    She's not ready for her close-up yet.
    , @Buck Ransom
    Morbid curiosity led me to the theatre about 20 years ago to see Madge's rancid remake of the terrific and very sexy Italian movie "Swept Away," about two class enemies stranded on a desert island. Even then, two decades younger than she is now, she had a scene allowing her to pout and whine about the unfairness of younger tarts stealing the spotlight from such an accomplished artiste. Her ex, Guy Ritchie, directed this turkey. The headline for the film review in the NY Post captured the overall effect: "Washed Up."
  8. The journalist who wrote this article spent days and hours and months with me and was invited into a world which many people dont get to see, but chose to focus on trivial and superficial matters such as the ethnicity of my stand in or the fabric of my curtains and never ending comments about my age which would never have been mentioned had I been a MAN! Women have a really hard time being the champions of other women even if. they are posing as intellectua

    l feminists.

    Perhaps Madonna is coming to see that women are, for the most part, as described by Schopenhauer.

    QUOTING FROM A COMMENT BY FLIP IN A PREVIOUS THREAD:

    “The nobler and more perfect a thing is, the later and slower is it in reaching maturity. Man reaches the maturity of his reasoning and mental faculties scarcely before he is eight-and-twenty; woman when she is eighteen; but hers is reason of very narrow limitations. This is why women remain children all their lives, for they always see only what is near at hand, cling to the present, take the appearance of a thing for reality, and prefer trifling matters to the most important. It is by virtue of man’s reasoning powers that he does not live in the present only, like the brute, but observes and ponders over the past and future; and from this spring discretion, care, and that anxiety which we so frequently notice in people. The advantages, as well as the disadvantages, that this entails, make woman, in consequence of her weaker reasoning powers, less of a partaker in them. Moreover, she is intellectually short-sighted, for although her intuitive understanding quickly perceives what is near to her, on the other hand her circle of vision is limited and does not embrace anything that is remote; hence everything that is absent or past, or in the future, affects women in a less degree than men. This is why they have greater inclination for extravagance, which sometimes borders on madness. Women in their hearts think that men are intended to earn money so that they may spend it, if possible during their husband’s lifetime, but at any rate after his death.”

    Schopenhauer “On Women”

    • Replies: @SFG
    I'm no feminist, but which sex invented "Hold my beer, and watch this?"
    , @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Wasn't Shoepenhauer gay? Or queer? Usually the intellectuals that put down women's mental abilities tend to be gay. The reasoning is fairly obvious. Women are rivals for men's physical affections.
    , @Charles Erwin Wilson 3
    Schopenhauer on Women? Oh come on. Really?
    , @Rosie

    woman when she is eighteen
     
    Who needs science when you have the musings of a suicidal curmudgeon whose been dead for 200 years.
    , @TTSSYF
    "The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys."

    Each side has some element of truth in their snark.
    , @Liza

    This is why women remain children all their lives, for they always see only what is near at hand, cling to the present, take the appearance of a thing for reality, and prefer trifling matters to the most important.
     
    Some women remain children all their lives, and a whole lot of men are in that category as well. Even when I was a young girl, I heard so many women say that men are basically little boys in big bodies. It may be true. Their feelings are so easily hurt but they try to hide it.

    I live in a houseful of males and I can see that. Boys need such careful rearing. Girls in general will get over stuff more easily, laugh things off eventually. Boys just simmer inside over some injustice committed against them (sometimes real, sometimes a product of misunderstanding) and go bad or get violent.
  9. She’s living in Britain because nobody at home has taken her seriously for decades. (Except Camille Paglia, who grew up on the same water as Rod Serling.)

    She’s basically Jerry Lewis across the Channel.

    • Replies: @SunBakedSuburb
    "(Except Camille Paglia, who grew up on the same water as Rod Serling.)"

    Due to a girlfriend's insistence, I ended up reading a small portion of Paglia's work in the 90s. I don't recall her being as preachy as the overrated humanist preacher Serling.
    , @Harry Baldwin
    nobody at home has taken her seriously for decades. (Except Camille Paglia

    Paglia has moved on. Her new girl-crush is Rihanna.
    , @Lagertha
    Agree. I feel sorry for Madonna because she is too narcissistic to see her stupid behavior with this maudlin rant.

    She fumes against the patriarchy (wtf?) when in essence, this journalist of the NYT, basically held up a mirror, and surmised that Madonna is old. 60 is old.

    Madonna should count her blessings. Only opera singers can stay relevant because they usually, don't waste energy on politics and whining about their terrible luck with relationships. I mean, she has what,... been married to Sean and Guy...was there another? And, she has revealed her body and danced provocatively, on stage, for years...so, why "the patriarchy"suddenly offends her, is really silly, and disingenuous.

    And, I really don't approve of serial adopting of children (rescue cats & dogs, horse, are easier) - because, seriously and ethically, those children of hers, should be her focus. It ceased to be about her once she made the decision to adopt 4 other children including having 2 of her own. Pathetic!

  10. @simple_pseudonymic_handle
    1. The New York times is dead although it staggers on like a Zombie
    2. The article was very flattering to the old broad
    3. From the article:

    She told me she wasn’t yet over the release of her last album, “Rebel Heart,” in 2015, which sold less than her others. The songs had leaked online several months early, far from perfection. “There are no words to describe how devastated I was,” she said. “It took me a while to recover, and put such a bad taste in my mouth I wasn’t really interested in making music.” She added, “I felt raped.” It didn’t feel right to explain that women these days were trying not to use that word metaphorically.
     
    Poor Madonna. But the one good thing I learned is that Guy Ritchie took 75 mil in the divorce! Hear here for equality.

    An album that tanks is rape?!

    • Replies: @TheMediumIsTheMassage
    She was referring to how someone stole the mp3 files of her songs and leaked them on the internet while they were still a work in progress.
    , @anonymous
    You’re right, it should more accurately be called a Holocaust.
    , @Muggles
    No, I think that "rape" comment was her distress about the NYT interview which mentioned her age and distress about the article being factual about her declining popularity. She was actually comparing being interviewed by this much younger female NYT writer to Madge's own virtue-victim signalling claim of being raped at age 19. No way to tell if that happened other than her own unverified account.

    So an interview some self important former celebrity singer didn't like, is the "same as rape?" Whoa!

    I always thought that it was far far worse than that. Could even kill you. But an interview with some idiot NYT staffer which didn't have the correct amount of flattery? So who's shilling for the evil Patriarchy now, Madge? If rape is akin to a mere bruised ego, what's all this fuss about?

    Really, is she senile now?

    Can you imagine the kerfuffle if some 60 YO aging male actor compared a less than glowing interview with him to being raped? That would mean immediate MSM exile to Harvey Weinstein land.
  11. Ever hear a woman complain that another woman just mortally insulted her with a phrase that sounds perfectly innocuous to you? This article was full of that kind of thing.

    For example, “It didn’t feel right to explain that women these days were trying not to use that word metaphorically.”

    Wife explains there are actually at least 2 nasty digs in here: 1) ‘It didn’t feel right to explain…’= hopeless trying to explain to the old bag, she’ll never get it 2) “women these days”= she’s so old she’s not even a ‘woman these days.’ Calling it ‘that word’ is priggish as well.

    Etc.

  12. @simple_pseudonymic_handle
    1. The New York times is dead although it staggers on like a Zombie
    2. The article was very flattering to the old broad
    3. From the article:

    She told me she wasn’t yet over the release of her last album, “Rebel Heart,” in 2015, which sold less than her others. The songs had leaked online several months early, far from perfection. “There are no words to describe how devastated I was,” she said. “It took me a while to recover, and put such a bad taste in my mouth I wasn’t really interested in making music.” She added, “I felt raped.” It didn’t feel right to explain that women these days were trying not to use that word metaphorically.
     
    Poor Madonna. But the one good thing I learned is that Guy Ritchie took 75 mil in the divorce! Hear here for equality.

    Im sorry i spent 5 minutes with her. It makes me feel raped.

    “It took me a while to recover, and put such a bad taste in my mouth I wasn’t really interested in making music.” She added, “I felt raped.”

    In the 80’s she was “Like a Virgin.” Now she feels constantly raped. Getting old really does suck if you’re a female pop star.

    • Agree: bomag
    • Replies: @Sextus Empiricus
    Ah, where have I heard this before - retroactively reevaluating a past enjoyable and consensual interaction as “rape” when I am mad at the person in the present.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    Getting old really does suck if you’re a female pop star.
     
    With little taste or talent.
    , @Pericles
    Yeah, but as Reservoir Dogs explained to us, 'like' a virgin is not the same as being a virgin.
  13. >>The journalist who wrote this article spent days and hours and months with me and was invited into a world which many people don’t get to see,

    Yeah, rub it into our ordinary faces Madge. How fortunate once must be to wallow a bit in your presence.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    'The journalist who wrote this article spent days and hours and months with me and was invited into a world which many people don’t get to see,

    That set me off wondering how much I'd want to spend time with Madonna.

    Offhand -- $500 a day? Yeah -- I think about that. Less than I'd want to associate with Obandiyag. More than for Corvinus.
  14. SFG says:

    I read the article. It seemed pretty laudatory to me. It actually is pretty impressive to have a 40-year career in popular music...this is an area where you’re lucky to be famous for a few weeks. I can’t say I agree with Madonna on this or much else but the lady is a marketing genius to have lasted as long as she does.

    • Replies: @Dumbo

    "It seemed pretty laudatory to me".
     
    That's how it would seem to men, but not to women, see comment 11 for an explanation.

    I agree with the person who said sending a young woman to do the interview was a bad mistake.

    Men are usually much more neutral (about either men or women), than women when talking about other women (women can't stop competing).

    That's one of the reasons feminism never really seems to work, women hate or are jealous of each other constantly. In fact feminism itself is perhaps more about women competing with each other than about men.

  15. That older women HATE, HATE, HATE younger women is a fact you can take to the bank.

    • Replies: @ricpic
    Older people in general hate younger people. Many won't admit it, but it's there. I'm a 77 year old man and a general dislike of the stupid young (I too was once young and stupid) has grown in me. Proud of it? Ashamed? Neither. It's just another component of growing old.
    , @Louis Renault
    Old cat lady squeals at the young kitten purring away in the NYT.
  16. anon[330] • Disclaimer says:

    There has never been a Patriarchy.
    On the farm men worked in the barn and fields because they had the body strength needed for heavy labor. Women did the work around the home because they give birth and nurse the young, and it was therefore practicle for them to manage the home.
    If Grandpa was in the barn mending harnesses and Grandma was in the house mending clothes, that is not a Patriarchy. That is a Partnership and the division of labor was based on practical needs and in no way unfair. Both partners stayed endlessly busy.
    Post WWII prosperity and dramatic improvements in technology and mass distribution of technology made it possible for women to no longer work so hard at home. Our democracy made it possible for women to go to college. Women moved into the workplace in large numbers because of these practicle advances.
    Think of your own family history (I have just described the transition from my Grandmother, a farm wife, to my female cousins, all professional women).
    Did the fathers of my cousins forbid their daughters from going to college? No – they paid for it!
    Did male business owners refuse to hire my cousins? No – they all got jobs and succeeded.
    All this happened before Gloria Steinmen burned any bras and before Madonna declared war on men.
    Women have nothing to complain about. If they still have hard choices to make (to have a kid or have a career), and if life in the office is just as hard as life on the farm used to be, then tough cookies. Life is just hard – don’t blame men.

    • Agree: Achmed E. Newman
    • Replies: @stillCARealist
    How long was it from when lots of men started going to college that lots of women started going to college? I think it was pretty much at the same time: right after WWII.

    Also, women moved into factory work pretty soon after the men did.

    Madonna is crazy, but you already knew that. Someone crosses her and she's out to get revenge on the world. Was she really raped at 19?

    My husband knew her when she was 19. They were both taking dance classes in NYC at the same studio. He said she was the most commanding, demanding, loud, alpha wolf he'd ever seen in female form. At 19. Was that the result of the rape, or was she really the perpetrator and she's messed up her memory in self-defense?
    , @Hark hark the snark
    I’m reading vol 1 of Robert Caro’s biography of Lyndon Johnson. He describes the grueling workday of women on the farms of the Texas hill country before electrification of that region, which didn’t happen until the mid 30s. This was a dawn to dusk regimen of carrying heavy buckets of water for cooking and laundry; tending a wood fire stove in hot summers to bake bread since they couldnt afford store-bought bread; chopping wood; laundering dirty farm clothing by beating and stirring the water-logged clothing in washtub and lifting them with a stick to the rinse tub; ironing clothes with a wedge of iron heated up on the wood stove. They were permanently stooped over by the time they reached 35 years of age.

    I’d like to see some the spoiled bitches of our time deal with that.
    , @peterike
    “There has never been a Patriarchy.”

    “The Patriarchy” is just another Jewish film-flam in the long history of Jewish flim-flam.
    , @Jack Strocchi
    Patriarchy only incidentally refers to the sexual and social domination of men over women. Younger reproductive women tend to be ruled over by older women, usually through religion.

    The real business of patriarchy is the rule of older Alpha-males (up to and including God, the uber alpha--male) over younger would-be Alpha-males. Young males have to be trained and disciplined to be procreators of children, providers for their fsmilies and protectors of their turf. Sacred Rituals such as initations reinforce this training.

    Elsewise they can go feral, and go down the Lord of the Flies track, with maybe some Young Turk rebellion against the Elders of the Tribe. In short they have to be made into husbands, which can mean house bound in Norse.

    Patriarchy has substantially collapsed over the past generation. But it has been the delinquency of the elder Alpha-males (Davos et al) rather than juvenile delinquency that has upset the patriarchal apple cart. Not enough shot gun marriages.

    Young men are lost and need patriarchal direction. This is what is driving Jordan Petersens stellar career.
    , @Jasoerpants
    This is a great summary, but I’d add that after the 60s, women were now in control of reproduction and could better choose time and place of child rearing.
  17. In other notable person news –

    This past week, a wave of 10 politically-related deaths / murders / suicides in the USA

    Tony Rodham, Hillary Clinton’s youngest brother, age 65, cause of death ‘not immediately known’

    New York Police Detective Joseph Calabrese, said to have seen the laptop of convicted Anthony Weiner with Hillary’s e-mails, ‘suicide’

    New York Police Detective Steven Silks, said to have seen the laptop of convicted Anthony Weiner with Hillary’s e-mails, ‘suicide’

    Billionaire Democrat media owner Herbert Sandler linked to Hillary, dead

    US Commerce Official Lola Gulomova, previously of NASA & the World Bank, ‘killed in murder-suicide’

    Republican former Arkansas state senator Linda Collins-Smith, ‘found dead with gunshot wound’

    Republican former Oklahoma state senator Jonathan Nichols, ‘found dead with gunshot wound’

    Florida news anchor & reporter Todd Tongen, ‘suicide’

    ‘LGBT leader’ Philadelphia Sheriff Deputy Dante Austin, ‘found dead at his desk’

    Kemah, Texas Police Chief Chris Reed, ‘thrown from his fishing boat’ missing & presumed dead

    This is in addition to the murder of leading German pro-migrant politician Walter Lübcke, found last Sunday in his garden with a bullet in his head … Lübcke was famous for telling Germans millions of migrants were coming, period, and they could leave Germany if they didn’t like it

    • Replies: @stillCARealist
    Walter Lubcke, never heard of him, but it looks like he was killed by his young homo lover. charming.

    Dante Austin, another homo, apparently offed himself. Or maybe it was Walter Lubcke's boyfriend.
    , @Ron Mexico
    My mother-in-law was a secretary for poli-sci dept at Albion College when David Schippers, house investigator during Clinton impeachment, was a visiting prof. In conversation, he said to her that he had penned a personal letter to each of his children saying that if he died of a reported "suicide" that was false and the Clintons had something to do with it.
    , @Charles Erwin Wilson 3
    So, are you saying it is a conspiracy? Or not?
    , @Louis Renault
    Herbert Sandler was 87.
    , @SunBakedSuburb
    If both Detective Calabrese and Detective Silks can be connected to the Weiner laptop then that is a story. John Podesta associate and billionaire banker (both of which make him a diseased soul) Herbert Sandler was 87 and apparently died of cancer. So, probably natural. But the two NYPD detectives, yeah, that's interesting. Thanks for the tip.
    , @El Dato
    It's not a Conspiracy. It's just the Patriarchy.
  18. @Calvin Hobbes


    The journalist who wrote this article spent days and hours and months with me and was invited into a world which many people dont get to see, but chose to focus on trivial and superficial matters such as the ethnicity of my stand in or the fabric of my curtains and never ending comments about my age which would never have been mentioned had I been a MAN! Women have a really hard time being the champions of other women even if. they are posing as intellectua
     
    l feminists.
     
    Perhaps Madonna is coming to see that women are, for the most part, as described by Schopenhauer.

    QUOTING FROM A COMMENT BY FLIP IN A PREVIOUS THREAD:

    “The nobler and more perfect a thing is, the later and slower is it in reaching maturity. Man reaches the maturity of his reasoning and mental faculties scarcely before he is eight-and-twenty; woman when she is eighteen; but hers is reason of very narrow limitations. This is why women remain children all their lives, for they always see only what is near at hand, cling to the present, take the appearance of a thing for reality, and prefer trifling matters to the most important. It is by virtue of man’s reasoning powers that he does not live in the present only, like the brute, but observes and ponders over the past and future; and from this spring discretion, care, and that anxiety which we so frequently notice in people. The advantages, as well as the disadvantages, that this entails, make woman, in consequence of her weaker reasoning powers, less of a partaker in them. Moreover, she is intellectually short-sighted, for although her intuitive understanding quickly perceives what is near to her, on the other hand her circle of vision is limited and does not embrace anything that is remote; hence everything that is absent or past, or in the future, affects women in a less degree than men. This is why they have greater inclination for extravagance, which sometimes borders on madness. Women in their hearts think that men are intended to earn money so that they may spend it, if possible during their husband’s lifetime, but at any rate after his death.”

    Schopenhauer “On Women”

    I’m no feminist, but which sex invented “Hold my beer, and watch this?”

  19. @BB753
    That older women HATE, HATE, HATE younger women is a fact you can take to the bank.

    Older people in general hate younger people. Many won’t admit it, but it’s there. I’m a 77 year old man and a general dislike of the stupid young (I too was once young and stupid) has grown in me. Proud of it? Ashamed? Neither. It’s just another component of growing old.

    • Agree: TTSSYF
    • Replies: @Rosie

    Older people in general hate younger people. Many won’t admit it, but it’s there. I’m a 77 year old man and a general dislike of the stupid young (I too was once young and stupid) has grown in me. Proud of it? Ashamed? Neither. It’s just another component of growing old.
     
    Hmmm, that's interesting. I still love young people. I suspect I'm arguing with one over on AE's blog. The arrogant swagger of a young bullshit artist makes me nostalgic for my own youth, and it always makes me smile.
    , @BB753
    As you get older, you cannot suffer young fools. But you don't envy them.
    , @Simply Simon
    "Older people in general hate younger people."
    I believe "hate" is far too strong a word. Envy perhaps. I am 91 and I find that I take the measure of the many young people I meet by their interactions with each other and yes old people like myself. If they have the manners of a pig I have complete disdain for them. But if they show class and act like they seem happy being a productive member of society I admire them no end. At least in the circles in which I find myself the latter are in the majority.
  20. Intrasexual competition: it’s a thing, and nothing to do with patriarchy.

  21. The New York Times messed up by sending a woman, particularly a younger and attractive one (for real life, not Hollywood standards), to interview her. Fatal mistake. As she pointed out, Madonna was defensive and closed off from the get-go, and certainly did not want to get into a discussion about aging. What they should’ve done is send a man, all the best Madonna interviews have been with men (straight and gay), from her interviews with The Advocate to Howard Stern and MTV’s Kurt Loder. I’ve watched countless of her interviews and she’s clearly always been more comfortable talking to men in that kind of setting and sharing intimate details than with women reporters.With a good male reporter she’s flirty, relaxed, and forthcoming. Howard Stern had such good rapport with her that he somehow managed to get her to talk about how she had been raped when she first arrived in New York, something that she had never spoken about before. Hapless Vanessa Griogriadis had no chance of getting a revelation like that for her story.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Observation: Ever notice that no alpha male has ever expressed any desire of finding Madonna attractive? None. Her biggest fans have always been gays and beta males. In his autobiography, OAK OF Jose Canseco made mention of his encounter with Madonna: "People always ask me about Madonna, what's she like? I tell them that I don't know. Go ask someone who's actually been with her." In other words, unlike say, one of her generations counterparts, Christie Brinkley, (who was very much considered desirable by alphas, and all males alike) Madonna was never seriously considered sexually appealing to regular (and alpha males in particular) men. Madonna has a far better chance of hooking up with Camille Paglia, one of her biggest admirers and supporters for decades, than she ever would with an actual alpha male.

    In his time, President Trump was and remains an alpha. Does anyone seriously think that Donald Trump secretly lusted after the likes of Madonna?

    A note to Katherine: Please do NOT post any smutty pictures of Madonna. That kind of thing does worse than all the cold showers combined.

    , @SFG
    Right. Feminist solidarity trumped common sense here--getting attention from a man would have pleased her no doubt fragile ego.
    , @Forbes

    The New York Times messed up by sending a woman, particularly a younger and attractive one (for real life, not Hollywood standards), to interview her. Fatal mistake.
     
    NYT writer Grigoriadis is 45 y/o, and "attractive" is questionable. Nonetheless, current media standards--for whatever they're worth--require women to interview women. Assigning a man to the story ain't gonna happen.

    It's a feature article/personality profile for the NYT's target audience. That Madonna went on social media to bitch about it is bonus publicity material.

    Today, media is all about clickbait. It's entertainment, not information.
  22. @ricpic
    An album that tanks is rape?!

    She was referring to how someone stole the mp3 files of her songs and leaked them on the internet while they were still a work in progress.

  23. Madonna hit the wall a loooooooooooooooooooooong time ago………

  24. “never ending comments about my age which would never have been mentioned had I been a MAN! ”

    Of course it would have been mentioned, agism is constantly directed toward men as well. Had Madonna been ahead of the curve, she would’ve legally changed her age years ago to keep the powers that be off balance.

  25. strong independent women

    Tell me she didn’t really say that.

    I say—DEATH TO THE PATRIARCHY

    Wow, Madonna’s gotten so edgy, hasn’t she?

  26. It makes me feel raped. And yes I’m allowed to use that analogy

    I’m not reading the NYT article but Madonna’s riposte is a virtual gold mine.

    You go, gurrl.

  27. @anon
    There has never been a Patriarchy.
    On the farm men worked in the barn and fields because they had the body strength needed for heavy labor. Women did the work around the home because they give birth and nurse the young, and it was therefore practicle for them to manage the home.
    If Grandpa was in the barn mending harnesses and Grandma was in the house mending clothes, that is not a Patriarchy. That is a Partnership and the division of labor was based on practical needs and in no way unfair. Both partners stayed endlessly busy.
    Post WWII prosperity and dramatic improvements in technology and mass distribution of technology made it possible for women to no longer work so hard at home. Our democracy made it possible for women to go to college. Women moved into the workplace in large numbers because of these practicle advances.
    Think of your own family history (I have just described the transition from my Grandmother, a farm wife, to my female cousins, all professional women).
    Did the fathers of my cousins forbid their daughters from going to college? No - they paid for it!
    Did male business owners refuse to hire my cousins? No - they all got jobs and succeeded.
    All this happened before Gloria Steinmen burned any bras and before Madonna declared war on men.
    Women have nothing to complain about. If they still have hard choices to make (to have a kid or have a career), and if life in the office is just as hard as life on the farm used to be, then tough cookies. Life is just hard - don't blame men.

    How long was it from when lots of men started going to college that lots of women started going to college? I think it was pretty much at the same time: right after WWII.

    Also, women moved into factory work pretty soon after the men did.

    Madonna is crazy, but you already knew that. Someone crosses her and she’s out to get revenge on the world. Was she really raped at 19?

    My husband knew her when she was 19. They were both taking dance classes in NYC at the same studio. He said she was the most commanding, demanding, loud, alpha wolf he’d ever seen in female form. At 19. Was that the result of the rape, or was she really the perpetrator and she’s messed up her memory in self-defense?

    • Replies: @Pericles

    They were both taking dance classes in NYC at the same studio. He said she was the most commanding, demanding, loud, alpha wolf he’d ever seen in female form. At 19. Was that the result of the rape, or was she really the perpetrator and she’s messed up her memory in self-defense?

     

    Was there perhaps a gay latino dancer who one day had a breakdown and fled the class in tears, never to come back?
    , @Cloudbuster
    She's probably convinced herself the porno film she did at that age, where the character is raped in a bathroom, was actually real life.
  28. Funny from an old broad whose whole notoriety derived from piggybacking on the name of an older broad.

    And can’t sing.

    Looked awful in her prime.

    • Replies: @stillCARealist
    I have to agree. In the 80's I always thought of her as a cheesy-music slut. I couldn't figure out why she was so popular. Her songs weren't good enough to buy, and yet they were always on the radio. She wasn't pretty, but had that disgusting boy-toy persona that made me put her in the same category as Boy George or Michael Jackson. Gross, just gross.
  29. @Brabantian
    In other notable person news -

    This past week, a wave of 10 politically-related deaths / murders / suicides in the USA

    Tony Rodham, Hillary Clinton's youngest brother, age 65, cause of death 'not immediately known'

    New York Police Detective Joseph Calabrese, said to have seen the laptop of convicted Anthony Weiner with Hillary's e-mails, 'suicide'

    New York Police Detective Steven Silks, said to have seen the laptop of convicted Anthony Weiner with Hillary's e-mails, 'suicide'

    Billionaire Democrat media owner Herbert Sandler linked to Hillary, dead

    US Commerce Official Lola Gulomova, previously of NASA & the World Bank, 'killed in murder-suicide'

    Republican former Arkansas state senator Linda Collins-Smith, 'found dead with gunshot wound'

    Republican former Oklahoma state senator Jonathan Nichols, 'found dead with gunshot wound'

    Florida news anchor & reporter Todd Tongen, 'suicide'

    'LGBT leader' Philadelphia Sheriff Deputy Dante Austin, 'found dead at his desk'

    Kemah, Texas Police Chief Chris Reed, 'thrown from his fishing boat' missing & presumed dead

    This is in addition to the murder of leading German pro-migrant politician Walter Lübcke, found last Sunday in his garden with a bullet in his head ... Lübcke was famous for telling Germans millions of migrants were coming, period, and they could leave Germany if they didn't like it
    https://i.ibb.co/TBSpZg3/im-not-saying-its-a-conspiracy-but-its-a-conspiracy.jpg

    Walter Lubcke, never heard of him, but it looks like he was killed by his young homo lover. charming.

    Dante Austin, another homo, apparently offed himself. Or maybe it was Walter Lubcke’s boyfriend.

    • Replies: @anon
    Yeah, disgusting. Heterosexual couples never kill one another.
  30. @TheMediumIsTheMassage
    The New York Times messed up by sending a woman, particularly a younger and attractive one (for real life, not Hollywood standards), to interview her. Fatal mistake. As she pointed out, Madonna was defensive and closed off from the get-go, and certainly did not want to get into a discussion about aging. What they should've done is send a man, all the best Madonna interviews have been with men (straight and gay), from her interviews with The Advocate to Howard Stern and MTV's Kurt Loder. I've watched countless of her interviews and she's clearly always been more comfortable talking to men in that kind of setting and sharing intimate details than with women reporters.With a good male reporter she's flirty, relaxed, and forthcoming. Howard Stern had such good rapport with her that he somehow managed to get her to talk about how she had been raped when she first arrived in New York, something that she had never spoken about before. Hapless Vanessa Griogriadis had no chance of getting a revelation like that for her story.

    Observation: Ever notice that no alpha male has ever expressed any desire of finding Madonna attractive? None. Her biggest fans have always been gays and beta males. In his autobiography, OAK OF Jose Canseco made mention of his encounter with Madonna: “People always ask me about Madonna, what’s she like? I tell them that I don’t know. Go ask someone who’s actually been with her.” In other words, unlike say, one of her generations counterparts, Christie Brinkley, (who was very much considered desirable by alphas, and all males alike) Madonna was never seriously considered sexually appealing to regular (and alpha males in particular) men. Madonna has a far better chance of hooking up with Camille Paglia, one of her biggest admirers and supporters for decades, than she ever would with an actual alpha male.

    In his time, President Trump was and remains an alpha. Does anyone seriously think that Donald Trump secretly lusted after the likes of Madonna?

    A note to Katherine: Please do NOT post any smutty pictures of Madonna. That kind of thing does worse than all the cold showers combined.

    • Replies: @anonymous
    Dennis Rodman.
    , @SunBakedSuburb
    "Ever notice that no alpha male has ever expressed any desire of finding Madonna attractive?"

    Sean Penn tries hard, but he is an actor. And he's a fine actor though a repugnant person. I've never found Madonna attractive. I guess that makes me an alpha. Now, if I can only convince Vox.
    , @Anonymous
    Well, few women are as beautiful as Stormy. Also, few people could spend 130K on one night with that beauty.

    A

    L

    P

    H

    A

    M

    A

    L

    E
    , @PennTothal

    In his time, President Trump was and remains an alpha. Does anyone seriously think that Donald Trump secretly lusted after the likes of Madonna?
     
    Donald may have offered her some drumstick at mar-a-lago in the 1990's

    https://www.vogue.com/article/donatella-versace-madonna-donald-trump
    , @Harry Baldwin
    John F. Kennedy Jr was reported to have had a fling with Madonna. He was pretty alpha, wasn't he, nailing Brooke Shields, Julia Roberts, Darryl Hannah and others in their prime? I recall that after the news of the affair broke, Jay Leno commented, "Let's face it, it was inevitable, considering the odds."
    , @TheMediumIsTheMassage
    The biggest fans of any female pop star are always gay men (and straight women) so nothing out of the ordinary there. As far as attracting 'alpha men', you're wrong. Sean Penn, Warren Beatty and Guy Ritchie are all pretty much the definition of alpha men who could get any woman they want, and they all had long-term relationships with her.
  31. Im sorry i spent 5 minutes with her. It makes me feel raped.

    That’s an odd parallel.

    And yes I’m allowed to use that analogy having been raped at the age of 19

    Oh, okay…now I understand why she made that parallel. The mean spirited millionaire needed to be a victim. (Like many other status enhancing incidents of abuse and victimization, I’m wondering when it will become socially acceptable for the rest of us to list “been raped” as a qualification on a job application or a resume. I’m guessing the year 2024.)

    How dare the media not build up the image of dysfunctional celebrities, says Madonna. It’s become a perennial truth: the aging rock stars of today are just as pathetic as those of 40 years ago.

    https://www.newmedicalterms.com/media-medicine-2/real-people-2/fat-elvis-syndrome/

    • Replies: @anonymous
    The NYT is Bull Connors and Madonna is Emmett Till!:(
    , @Thomm

    The mean spirited millionaire needed to be a victim.
     
    Try near-billionaire. Madonna's net worth is about $700 Million.
  32. @TheMediumIsTheMassage
    The New York Times messed up by sending a woman, particularly a younger and attractive one (for real life, not Hollywood standards), to interview her. Fatal mistake. As she pointed out, Madonna was defensive and closed off from the get-go, and certainly did not want to get into a discussion about aging. What they should've done is send a man, all the best Madonna interviews have been with men (straight and gay), from her interviews with The Advocate to Howard Stern and MTV's Kurt Loder. I've watched countless of her interviews and she's clearly always been more comfortable talking to men in that kind of setting and sharing intimate details than with women reporters.With a good male reporter she's flirty, relaxed, and forthcoming. Howard Stern had such good rapport with her that he somehow managed to get her to talk about how she had been raped when she first arrived in New York, something that she had never spoken about before. Hapless Vanessa Griogriadis had no chance of getting a revelation like that for her story.

    Right. Feminist solidarity trumped common sense here–getting attention from a man would have pleased her no doubt fragile ego.

  33. @Calvin Hobbes


    The journalist who wrote this article spent days and hours and months with me and was invited into a world which many people dont get to see, but chose to focus on trivial and superficial matters such as the ethnicity of my stand in or the fabric of my curtains and never ending comments about my age which would never have been mentioned had I been a MAN! Women have a really hard time being the champions of other women even if. they are posing as intellectua
     
    l feminists.
     
    Perhaps Madonna is coming to see that women are, for the most part, as described by Schopenhauer.

    QUOTING FROM A COMMENT BY FLIP IN A PREVIOUS THREAD:

    “The nobler and more perfect a thing is, the later and slower is it in reaching maturity. Man reaches the maturity of his reasoning and mental faculties scarcely before he is eight-and-twenty; woman when she is eighteen; but hers is reason of very narrow limitations. This is why women remain children all their lives, for they always see only what is near at hand, cling to the present, take the appearance of a thing for reality, and prefer trifling matters to the most important. It is by virtue of man’s reasoning powers that he does not live in the present only, like the brute, but observes and ponders over the past and future; and from this spring discretion, care, and that anxiety which we so frequently notice in people. The advantages, as well as the disadvantages, that this entails, make woman, in consequence of her weaker reasoning powers, less of a partaker in them. Moreover, she is intellectually short-sighted, for although her intuitive understanding quickly perceives what is near to her, on the other hand her circle of vision is limited and does not embrace anything that is remote; hence everything that is absent or past, or in the future, affects women in a less degree than men. This is why they have greater inclination for extravagance, which sometimes borders on madness. Women in their hearts think that men are intended to earn money so that they may spend it, if possible during their husband’s lifetime, but at any rate after his death.”

    Schopenhauer “On Women”

    Wasn’t Shoepenhauer gay? Or queer? Usually the intellectuals that put down women’s mental abilities tend to be gay. The reasoning is fairly obvious. Women are rivals for men’s physical affections.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    No.
    , @anon
    "Usually the intellectuals that put down women’s mental abilities tend to be gay. The reasoning is fairly obvious. Women are rivals for men’s physical affections."

    Right, and denigrating women's mental acuity is the surest way to convince a guy to switch teams. I bet you write romance novels under an alias.
    , @S. Anonyia
    Not gay but perhaps a touch antisocial or asbergerish. He had serious issues with his mother, was angry that she wanted to remarry after his father died (pretty needlessly cantankerous of an opinion considering that was the best/expected way for a woman to survive in the absence of a husband’s income). Also he was never married, and only had sexual relationships with women from the lower classes like maids or prostitutes.
  34. @216
    A cursory search indicates that Madonna is worth hundreds of millions of dollars.

    She never once targeted the hatred of Sarah Jeong. She probably never will.

    Sign me up for the AOC 70% tax rate on the super-rich. They have done nothing but spread perversion, while being parasites on the largely white conservative middle-class parents that paid for most music purchases.

    “Sign me up for the AOC 70% tax rate on the super-rich.”

    Yep, if by super-rich you mean the billionaire class.

    • Replies: @Sextus Empiricus
    They never mean that; they mean YOU.
  35. @BB753
    That older women HATE, HATE, HATE younger women is a fact you can take to the bank.

    Old cat lady squeals at the young kitten purring away in the NYT.

    • LOL: BB753
  36. @anon
    There has never been a Patriarchy.
    On the farm men worked in the barn and fields because they had the body strength needed for heavy labor. Women did the work around the home because they give birth and nurse the young, and it was therefore practicle for them to manage the home.
    If Grandpa was in the barn mending harnesses and Grandma was in the house mending clothes, that is not a Patriarchy. That is a Partnership and the division of labor was based on practical needs and in no way unfair. Both partners stayed endlessly busy.
    Post WWII prosperity and dramatic improvements in technology and mass distribution of technology made it possible for women to no longer work so hard at home. Our democracy made it possible for women to go to college. Women moved into the workplace in large numbers because of these practicle advances.
    Think of your own family history (I have just described the transition from my Grandmother, a farm wife, to my female cousins, all professional women).
    Did the fathers of my cousins forbid their daughters from going to college? No - they paid for it!
    Did male business owners refuse to hire my cousins? No - they all got jobs and succeeded.
    All this happened before Gloria Steinmen burned any bras and before Madonna declared war on men.
    Women have nothing to complain about. If they still have hard choices to make (to have a kid or have a career), and if life in the office is just as hard as life on the farm used to be, then tough cookies. Life is just hard - don't blame men.

    I’m reading vol 1 of Robert Caro’s biography of Lyndon Johnson. He describes the grueling workday of women on the farms of the Texas hill country before electrification of that region, which didn’t happen until the mid 30s. This was a dawn to dusk regimen of carrying heavy buckets of water for cooking and laundry; tending a wood fire stove in hot summers to bake bread since they couldnt afford store-bought bread; chopping wood; laundering dirty farm clothing by beating and stirring the water-logged clothing in washtub and lifting them with a stick to the rinse tub; ironing clothes with a wedge of iron heated up on the wood stove. They were permanently stooped over by the time they reached 35 years of age.

    I’d like to see some the spoiled bitches of our time deal with that.

    • Replies: @SunBakedSuburb
    "I'd like to see some [of] the spoiled bitches of our time deal with that."

    I'd like to see some of the soft boys with the fussy beards and constant companion iPhones of our time deal with that.
    , @Rosie

    I’d like to see some the spoiled bitches of our time deal with that.
     
    So I guess when the men around here say men built civilization, they're not telling the whole truth, are they?
    , @Anon

    This was a dawn to dusk regimen of carrying heavy buckets of water for cooking and laundry.
     
    If you have a woman who'll do all this stuff, hey, take advantage of it. Men solve these problems in other ways, digging irrigation systems and wells and building rainwater capture systems.
    , @anon
    It's a great read, but it's also bullshit from start to finish.
    Johnson and the Democratic Party did well out of the electrification of rural Texas, but Caro presents Johnson as a sometimes unscrupulous person whose heart was in the right place, and the story about the farm wives and their ''sad irons'' is part of the myth making.
  37. @Reg Cæsar
    She's living in Britain because nobody at home has taken her seriously for decades. (Except Camille Paglia, who grew up on the same water as Rod Serling.)

    She's basically Jerry Lewis across the Channel.

    “(Except Camille Paglia, who grew up on the same water as Rod Serling.)”

    Due to a girlfriend’s insistence, I ended up reading a small portion of Paglia’s work in the 90s. I don’t recall her being as preachy as the overrated humanist preacher Serling.

    • Replies: @68W58
    I agree about Paglia, I rather like her. There are concepts she discusses in her work that I hadn’t been exposed to in my education before I read “Sexual Personae” that she really brought home to me. She can be a little loopy, but she is far better than 90+% of the professoriate.
  38. @Brabantian
    In other notable person news -

    This past week, a wave of 10 politically-related deaths / murders / suicides in the USA

    Tony Rodham, Hillary Clinton's youngest brother, age 65, cause of death 'not immediately known'

    New York Police Detective Joseph Calabrese, said to have seen the laptop of convicted Anthony Weiner with Hillary's e-mails, 'suicide'

    New York Police Detective Steven Silks, said to have seen the laptop of convicted Anthony Weiner with Hillary's e-mails, 'suicide'

    Billionaire Democrat media owner Herbert Sandler linked to Hillary, dead

    US Commerce Official Lola Gulomova, previously of NASA & the World Bank, 'killed in murder-suicide'

    Republican former Arkansas state senator Linda Collins-Smith, 'found dead with gunshot wound'

    Republican former Oklahoma state senator Jonathan Nichols, 'found dead with gunshot wound'

    Florida news anchor & reporter Todd Tongen, 'suicide'

    'LGBT leader' Philadelphia Sheriff Deputy Dante Austin, 'found dead at his desk'

    Kemah, Texas Police Chief Chris Reed, 'thrown from his fishing boat' missing & presumed dead

    This is in addition to the murder of leading German pro-migrant politician Walter Lübcke, found last Sunday in his garden with a bullet in his head ... Lübcke was famous for telling Germans millions of migrants were coming, period, and they could leave Germany if they didn't like it
    https://i.ibb.co/TBSpZg3/im-not-saying-its-a-conspiracy-but-its-a-conspiracy.jpg

    My mother-in-law was a secretary for poli-sci dept at Albion College when David Schippers, house investigator during Clinton impeachment, was a visiting prof. In conversation, he said to her that he had penned a personal letter to each of his children saying that if he died of a reported “suicide” that was false and the Clintons had something to do with it.

  39. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Wasn't Shoepenhauer gay? Or queer? Usually the intellectuals that put down women's mental abilities tend to be gay. The reasoning is fairly obvious. Women are rivals for men's physical affections.

    No.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Ok.
  40. @Bubba
    Grigoriadis has a beautiful, natural set of bazongas.

    What was she writing about again?

    Grigoriadis has a beautiful, natural set of bazongas.

    How do you know? First hand experience? (Okay pun intended.)

    • Replies: @San Fernando Curt
    Hag Rock
  41. @Calvin Hobbes


    The journalist who wrote this article spent days and hours and months with me and was invited into a world which many people dont get to see, but chose to focus on trivial and superficial matters such as the ethnicity of my stand in or the fabric of my curtains and never ending comments about my age which would never have been mentioned had I been a MAN! Women have a really hard time being the champions of other women even if. they are posing as intellectua
     
    l feminists.
     
    Perhaps Madonna is coming to see that women are, for the most part, as described by Schopenhauer.

    QUOTING FROM A COMMENT BY FLIP IN A PREVIOUS THREAD:

    “The nobler and more perfect a thing is, the later and slower is it in reaching maturity. Man reaches the maturity of his reasoning and mental faculties scarcely before he is eight-and-twenty; woman when she is eighteen; but hers is reason of very narrow limitations. This is why women remain children all their lives, for they always see only what is near at hand, cling to the present, take the appearance of a thing for reality, and prefer trifling matters to the most important. It is by virtue of man’s reasoning powers that he does not live in the present only, like the brute, but observes and ponders over the past and future; and from this spring discretion, care, and that anxiety which we so frequently notice in people. The advantages, as well as the disadvantages, that this entails, make woman, in consequence of her weaker reasoning powers, less of a partaker in them. Moreover, she is intellectually short-sighted, for although her intuitive understanding quickly perceives what is near to her, on the other hand her circle of vision is limited and does not embrace anything that is remote; hence everything that is absent or past, or in the future, affects women in a less degree than men. This is why they have greater inclination for extravagance, which sometimes borders on madness. Women in their hearts think that men are intended to earn money so that they may spend it, if possible during their husband’s lifetime, but at any rate after his death.”

    Schopenhauer “On Women”

    Schopenhauer on Women? Oh come on. Really?

  42. anonymous[395] • Disclaimer says:
    @ricpic
    An album that tanks is rape?!

    You’re right, it should more accurately be called a Holocaust.

  43. Is this a planned fake Hollywood “fight”, or is the Kabala worshiper sure we unwashed in Middle America will buy any kind of crap no matter how poorly packaged?

    • Replies: @william munny
    In pro wrestling talk, is it a work or a shoot? Maybe a bit of both.
  44. @Brabantian
    In other notable person news -

    This past week, a wave of 10 politically-related deaths / murders / suicides in the USA

    Tony Rodham, Hillary Clinton's youngest brother, age 65, cause of death 'not immediately known'

    New York Police Detective Joseph Calabrese, said to have seen the laptop of convicted Anthony Weiner with Hillary's e-mails, 'suicide'

    New York Police Detective Steven Silks, said to have seen the laptop of convicted Anthony Weiner with Hillary's e-mails, 'suicide'

    Billionaire Democrat media owner Herbert Sandler linked to Hillary, dead

    US Commerce Official Lola Gulomova, previously of NASA & the World Bank, 'killed in murder-suicide'

    Republican former Arkansas state senator Linda Collins-Smith, 'found dead with gunshot wound'

    Republican former Oklahoma state senator Jonathan Nichols, 'found dead with gunshot wound'

    Florida news anchor & reporter Todd Tongen, 'suicide'

    'LGBT leader' Philadelphia Sheriff Deputy Dante Austin, 'found dead at his desk'

    Kemah, Texas Police Chief Chris Reed, 'thrown from his fishing boat' missing & presumed dead

    This is in addition to the murder of leading German pro-migrant politician Walter Lübcke, found last Sunday in his garden with a bullet in his head ... Lübcke was famous for telling Germans millions of migrants were coming, period, and they could leave Germany if they didn't like it
    https://i.ibb.co/TBSpZg3/im-not-saying-its-a-conspiracy-but-its-a-conspiracy.jpg

    So, are you saying it is a conspiracy? Or not?

  45. @Brabantian
    In other notable person news -

    This past week, a wave of 10 politically-related deaths / murders / suicides in the USA

    Tony Rodham, Hillary Clinton's youngest brother, age 65, cause of death 'not immediately known'

    New York Police Detective Joseph Calabrese, said to have seen the laptop of convicted Anthony Weiner with Hillary's e-mails, 'suicide'

    New York Police Detective Steven Silks, said to have seen the laptop of convicted Anthony Weiner with Hillary's e-mails, 'suicide'

    Billionaire Democrat media owner Herbert Sandler linked to Hillary, dead

    US Commerce Official Lola Gulomova, previously of NASA & the World Bank, 'killed in murder-suicide'

    Republican former Arkansas state senator Linda Collins-Smith, 'found dead with gunshot wound'

    Republican former Oklahoma state senator Jonathan Nichols, 'found dead with gunshot wound'

    Florida news anchor & reporter Todd Tongen, 'suicide'

    'LGBT leader' Philadelphia Sheriff Deputy Dante Austin, 'found dead at his desk'

    Kemah, Texas Police Chief Chris Reed, 'thrown from his fishing boat' missing & presumed dead

    This is in addition to the murder of leading German pro-migrant politician Walter Lübcke, found last Sunday in his garden with a bullet in his head ... Lübcke was famous for telling Germans millions of migrants were coming, period, and they could leave Germany if they didn't like it
    https://i.ibb.co/TBSpZg3/im-not-saying-its-a-conspiracy-but-its-a-conspiracy.jpg

    Herbert Sandler was 87.

  46. anonymous[395] • Disclaimer says:
    @J1234

    Im sorry i spent 5 minutes with her. It makes me feel raped.
     
    That's an odd parallel.

    And yes I’m allowed to use that analogy having been raped at the age of 19
     
    Oh, okay...now I understand why she made that parallel. The mean spirited millionaire needed to be a victim. (Like many other status enhancing incidents of abuse and victimization, I'm wondering when it will become socially acceptable for the rest of us to list "been raped" as a qualification on a job application or a resume. I'm guessing the year 2024.)

    How dare the media not build up the image of dysfunctional celebrities, says Madonna. It's become a perennial truth: the aging rock stars of today are just as pathetic as those of 40 years ago.

    https://www.newmedicalterms.com/media-medicine-2/real-people-2/fat-elvis-syndrome/


    https://www.newmedicalterms.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/fat-Elvis-syndrome-e1477407378783.jpg

    The NYT is Bull Connors and Madonna is Emmett Till!:(

  47. anonymous[395] • Disclaimer says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Observation: Ever notice that no alpha male has ever expressed any desire of finding Madonna attractive? None. Her biggest fans have always been gays and beta males. In his autobiography, OAK OF Jose Canseco made mention of his encounter with Madonna: "People always ask me about Madonna, what's she like? I tell them that I don't know. Go ask someone who's actually been with her." In other words, unlike say, one of her generations counterparts, Christie Brinkley, (who was very much considered desirable by alphas, and all males alike) Madonna was never seriously considered sexually appealing to regular (and alpha males in particular) men. Madonna has a far better chance of hooking up with Camille Paglia, one of her biggest admirers and supporters for decades, than she ever would with an actual alpha male.

    In his time, President Trump was and remains an alpha. Does anyone seriously think that Donald Trump secretly lusted after the likes of Madonna?

    A note to Katherine: Please do NOT post any smutty pictures of Madonna. That kind of thing does worse than all the cold showers combined.

    Dennis Rodman.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    I said ALPHA, not weird, strange, and quasi-trans.
  48. @Brabantian
    In other notable person news -

    This past week, a wave of 10 politically-related deaths / murders / suicides in the USA

    Tony Rodham, Hillary Clinton's youngest brother, age 65, cause of death 'not immediately known'

    New York Police Detective Joseph Calabrese, said to have seen the laptop of convicted Anthony Weiner with Hillary's e-mails, 'suicide'

    New York Police Detective Steven Silks, said to have seen the laptop of convicted Anthony Weiner with Hillary's e-mails, 'suicide'

    Billionaire Democrat media owner Herbert Sandler linked to Hillary, dead

    US Commerce Official Lola Gulomova, previously of NASA & the World Bank, 'killed in murder-suicide'

    Republican former Arkansas state senator Linda Collins-Smith, 'found dead with gunshot wound'

    Republican former Oklahoma state senator Jonathan Nichols, 'found dead with gunshot wound'

    Florida news anchor & reporter Todd Tongen, 'suicide'

    'LGBT leader' Philadelphia Sheriff Deputy Dante Austin, 'found dead at his desk'

    Kemah, Texas Police Chief Chris Reed, 'thrown from his fishing boat' missing & presumed dead

    This is in addition to the murder of leading German pro-migrant politician Walter Lübcke, found last Sunday in his garden with a bullet in his head ... Lübcke was famous for telling Germans millions of migrants were coming, period, and they could leave Germany if they didn't like it
    https://i.ibb.co/TBSpZg3/im-not-saying-its-a-conspiracy-but-its-a-conspiracy.jpg

    If both Detective Calabrese and Detective Silks can be connected to the Weiner laptop then that is a story. John Podesta associate and billionaire banker (both of which make him a diseased soul) Herbert Sandler was 87 and apparently died of cancer. So, probably natural. But the two NYPD detectives, yeah, that’s interesting. Thanks for the tip.

  49. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Observation: Ever notice that no alpha male has ever expressed any desire of finding Madonna attractive? None. Her biggest fans have always been gays and beta males. In his autobiography, OAK OF Jose Canseco made mention of his encounter with Madonna: "People always ask me about Madonna, what's she like? I tell them that I don't know. Go ask someone who's actually been with her." In other words, unlike say, one of her generations counterparts, Christie Brinkley, (who was very much considered desirable by alphas, and all males alike) Madonna was never seriously considered sexually appealing to regular (and alpha males in particular) men. Madonna has a far better chance of hooking up with Camille Paglia, one of her biggest admirers and supporters for decades, than she ever would with an actual alpha male.

    In his time, President Trump was and remains an alpha. Does anyone seriously think that Donald Trump secretly lusted after the likes of Madonna?

    A note to Katherine: Please do NOT post any smutty pictures of Madonna. That kind of thing does worse than all the cold showers combined.

    “Ever notice that no alpha male has ever expressed any desire of finding Madonna attractive?”

    Sean Penn tries hard, but he is an actor. And he’s a fine actor though a repugnant person. I’ve never found Madonna attractive. I guess that makes me an alpha. Now, if I can only convince Vox.

  50. Anonymous[311] • Disclaimer says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Observation: Ever notice that no alpha male has ever expressed any desire of finding Madonna attractive? None. Her biggest fans have always been gays and beta males. In his autobiography, OAK OF Jose Canseco made mention of his encounter with Madonna: "People always ask me about Madonna, what's she like? I tell them that I don't know. Go ask someone who's actually been with her." In other words, unlike say, one of her generations counterparts, Christie Brinkley, (who was very much considered desirable by alphas, and all males alike) Madonna was never seriously considered sexually appealing to regular (and alpha males in particular) men. Madonna has a far better chance of hooking up with Camille Paglia, one of her biggest admirers and supporters for decades, than she ever would with an actual alpha male.

    In his time, President Trump was and remains an alpha. Does anyone seriously think that Donald Trump secretly lusted after the likes of Madonna?

    A note to Katherine: Please do NOT post any smutty pictures of Madonna. That kind of thing does worse than all the cold showers combined.

    Well, few women are as beautiful as Stormy. Also, few people could spend 130K on one night with that beauty.

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    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Most pornstars that escort don't charge 130k per night. (e.g. assuming that the top charge at most, 5k per hr, and a night is eight hours, ergo about 40k per night. And even that amount is quite high).

    The Donald did that cause he could.
  51. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Observation: Ever notice that no alpha male has ever expressed any desire of finding Madonna attractive? None. Her biggest fans have always been gays and beta males. In his autobiography, OAK OF Jose Canseco made mention of his encounter with Madonna: "People always ask me about Madonna, what's she like? I tell them that I don't know. Go ask someone who's actually been with her." In other words, unlike say, one of her generations counterparts, Christie Brinkley, (who was very much considered desirable by alphas, and all males alike) Madonna was never seriously considered sexually appealing to regular (and alpha males in particular) men. Madonna has a far better chance of hooking up with Camille Paglia, one of her biggest admirers and supporters for decades, than she ever would with an actual alpha male.

    In his time, President Trump was and remains an alpha. Does anyone seriously think that Donald Trump secretly lusted after the likes of Madonna?

    A note to Katherine: Please do NOT post any smutty pictures of Madonna. That kind of thing does worse than all the cold showers combined.

    In his time, President Trump was and remains an alpha. Does anyone seriously think that Donald Trump secretly lusted after the likes of Madonna?

    Donald may have offered her some drumstick at mar-a-lago in the 1990’s

    https://www.vogue.com/article/donatella-versace-madonna-donald-trump

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    As they say, believe that and they'll tell you another one. Believe everything you read?

    Face off: Madonna vs Christie Brinkley in their primes. Which female would a normal adult male find most physically appealing?

  52. @Hark hark the snark
    I’m reading vol 1 of Robert Caro’s biography of Lyndon Johnson. He describes the grueling workday of women on the farms of the Texas hill country before electrification of that region, which didn’t happen until the mid 30s. This was a dawn to dusk regimen of carrying heavy buckets of water for cooking and laundry; tending a wood fire stove in hot summers to bake bread since they couldnt afford store-bought bread; chopping wood; laundering dirty farm clothing by beating and stirring the water-logged clothing in washtub and lifting them with a stick to the rinse tub; ironing clothes with a wedge of iron heated up on the wood stove. They were permanently stooped over by the time they reached 35 years of age.

    I’d like to see some the spoiled bitches of our time deal with that.

    “I’d like to see some [of] the spoiled bitches of our time deal with that.”

    I’d like to see some of the soft boys with the fussy beards and constant companion iPhones of our time deal with that.

  53. @Bubba
    Grigoriadis has a beautiful, natural set of bazongas.

    What was she writing about again?

    Shoot, the first comment here preempted me. What the heck, I was going to say the chick who wrote this is hotter than Madonna ever was. That’s why old Madonna is pissed.

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    Madonna is pissed because she spent five minutes with the chick and didn't get any; she's lost her magic powers.
  54. @stillCARealist
    Walter Lubcke, never heard of him, but it looks like he was killed by his young homo lover. charming.

    Dante Austin, another homo, apparently offed himself. Or maybe it was Walter Lubcke's boyfriend.

    Yeah, disgusting. Heterosexual couples never kill one another.

  55. anon[169] • Disclaimer says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Wasn't Shoepenhauer gay? Or queer? Usually the intellectuals that put down women's mental abilities tend to be gay. The reasoning is fairly obvious. Women are rivals for men's physical affections.

    “Usually the intellectuals that put down women’s mental abilities tend to be gay. The reasoning is fairly obvious. Women are rivals for men’s physical affections.”

    Right, and denigrating women’s mental acuity is the surest way to convince a guy to switch teams. I bet you write romance novels under an alias.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    That wasn't what was stated. Basically gays when preening for straight males tend to up their misogyny (basically jealous toward women who get men) a few levels. It doesn't work, but they can always hold onto hope that perhaps it might.
  56. Grigoriadis is not exactly a spring chicken at 45, notwithstanding the picture that makes her appear to be about 30.

    While I despise Madonna for a variety of reason, I knew plenty of men in the 1980s who thought she was very attractive. What she needs to understand is that her 15 minutes of fame is up. Fighting to remain relevant only makes her look like a fool. She should accept it graciously, withdraw from the limelight, and be content with her past success and wealth. An older person getting into a cat fight with a younger person is a losing game.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    I would have to see these people. Only time Madonna came up among straight men with any amount of testosterone was as a punch line to a joke. Generally, her fan base was women, along with gays. Now if you want to compare her to Christie Brinkley, or even Cindy Crawford as to which woman that guys were definitely into at the time, think the results will be fairly obvious (not Madonna).

    Madonna = Sex Symbol for guys never caught on, and was only an idea among her PRs and handlers.

    LIKE a Virgin, as opposed to AS a sexy woman (Christie Brinkley). Just put the two women's headshots from their prime years (under 30) side by side, to better understand.
  57. @Hypnotoad666

    Im sorry i spent 5 minutes with her. It makes me feel raped.
     

    “It took me a while to recover, and put such a bad taste in my mouth I wasn’t really interested in making music.” She added, “I felt raped.”
     
    In the 80's she was "Like a Virgin." Now she feels constantly raped. Getting old really does suck if you're a female pop star.

    Ah, where have I heard this before – retroactively reevaluating a past enjoyable and consensual interaction as “rape” when I am mad at the person in the present.

  58. @Calvin Hobbes


    The journalist who wrote this article spent days and hours and months with me and was invited into a world which many people dont get to see, but chose to focus on trivial and superficial matters such as the ethnicity of my stand in or the fabric of my curtains and never ending comments about my age which would never have been mentioned had I been a MAN! Women have a really hard time being the champions of other women even if. they are posing as intellectua
     
    l feminists.
     
    Perhaps Madonna is coming to see that women are, for the most part, as described by Schopenhauer.

    QUOTING FROM A COMMENT BY FLIP IN A PREVIOUS THREAD:

    “The nobler and more perfect a thing is, the later and slower is it in reaching maturity. Man reaches the maturity of his reasoning and mental faculties scarcely before he is eight-and-twenty; woman when she is eighteen; but hers is reason of very narrow limitations. This is why women remain children all their lives, for they always see only what is near at hand, cling to the present, take the appearance of a thing for reality, and prefer trifling matters to the most important. It is by virtue of man’s reasoning powers that he does not live in the present only, like the brute, but observes and ponders over the past and future; and from this spring discretion, care, and that anxiety which we so frequently notice in people. The advantages, as well as the disadvantages, that this entails, make woman, in consequence of her weaker reasoning powers, less of a partaker in them. Moreover, she is intellectually short-sighted, for although her intuitive understanding quickly perceives what is near to her, on the other hand her circle of vision is limited and does not embrace anything that is remote; hence everything that is absent or past, or in the future, affects women in a less degree than men. This is why they have greater inclination for extravagance, which sometimes borders on madness. Women in their hearts think that men are intended to earn money so that they may spend it, if possible during their husband’s lifetime, but at any rate after his death.”

    Schopenhauer “On Women”

    woman when she is eighteen

    Who needs science when you have the musings of a suicidal curmudgeon whose been dead for 200 years.

    • Replies: @Dumbo
    He was deeply pessimist, in fact the most pessimist person ever, but not personally suicidal. He died of old age.

    Say what you will (no pun intended... I think) about old Schops, he's one of the most brilliant minds ever. His essays on general topics, such as how to write, are usually very good. His essay on women is also very good, and true for the most part. Most people who criticize it haven't read it, or just excerpts. I've never read much of his actual philosophy, except for the Wisdom of Life, which is a bit of a downer, but pretty easy to read (I don't think the same applies to "The World as Will and Representation".)

    About the gay thing, a lot of philosophers didn't marry or have children (Nietzsche, Kant, Kierkegaard, etc) but they weren't gay at all. Just not very successful with women. Women don't really go for the philosopher type, it's like kryptonite for them. Schopenhauer however seems to have had a few affairs and a couple of illegitimate children with maids.

    , @BenKenobi
    You didn't point out the lie, tho.
  59. @Hark hark the snark
    I’m reading vol 1 of Robert Caro’s biography of Lyndon Johnson. He describes the grueling workday of women on the farms of the Texas hill country before electrification of that region, which didn’t happen until the mid 30s. This was a dawn to dusk regimen of carrying heavy buckets of water for cooking and laundry; tending a wood fire stove in hot summers to bake bread since they couldnt afford store-bought bread; chopping wood; laundering dirty farm clothing by beating and stirring the water-logged clothing in washtub and lifting them with a stick to the rinse tub; ironing clothes with a wedge of iron heated up on the wood stove. They were permanently stooped over by the time they reached 35 years of age.

    I’d like to see some the spoiled bitches of our time deal with that.

    I’d like to see some the spoiled bitches of our time deal with that.

    So I guess when the men around here say men built civilization, they’re not telling the whole truth, are they?

    • Agree: Dtbb
    • Replies: @Hark hark the snark
    My complaint is with with the women of our time who blame the so-called patriarchy (men) for their ills. The plain fact is that men invented and built industrial scale electrification and the appliances that eased the burden of women and men alike. Women nowadays have no appreciation for what men in the past—the “patriarchy”—have provided for them.
    , @Pericles
    Men built civilization and women washed it.
  60. @SunBakedSuburb
    "Sign me up for the AOC 70% tax rate on the super-rich."

    Yep, if by super-rich you mean the billionaire class.

    They never mean that; they mean YOU.

  61. @ricpic
    Older people in general hate younger people. Many won't admit it, but it's there. I'm a 77 year old man and a general dislike of the stupid young (I too was once young and stupid) has grown in me. Proud of it? Ashamed? Neither. It's just another component of growing old.

    Older people in general hate younger people. Many won’t admit it, but it’s there. I’m a 77 year old man and a general dislike of the stupid young (I too was once young and stupid) has grown in me. Proud of it? Ashamed? Neither. It’s just another component of growing old.

    Hmmm, that’s interesting. I still love young people. I suspect I’m arguing with one over on AE’s blog. The arrogant swagger of a young bullshit artist makes me nostalgic for my own youth, and it always makes me smile.

  62. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Wasn't Shoepenhauer gay? Or queer? Usually the intellectuals that put down women's mental abilities tend to be gay. The reasoning is fairly obvious. Women are rivals for men's physical affections.

    Not gay but perhaps a touch antisocial or asbergerish. He had serious issues with his mother, was angry that she wanted to remarry after his father died (pretty needlessly cantankerous of an opinion considering that was the best/expected way for a woman to survive in the absence of a husband’s income). Also he was never married, and only had sexual relationships with women from the lower classes like maids or prostitutes.

  63. @Calvin Hobbes


    The journalist who wrote this article spent days and hours and months with me and was invited into a world which many people dont get to see, but chose to focus on trivial and superficial matters such as the ethnicity of my stand in or the fabric of my curtains and never ending comments about my age which would never have been mentioned had I been a MAN! Women have a really hard time being the champions of other women even if. they are posing as intellectua
     
    l feminists.
     
    Perhaps Madonna is coming to see that women are, for the most part, as described by Schopenhauer.

    QUOTING FROM A COMMENT BY FLIP IN A PREVIOUS THREAD:

    “The nobler and more perfect a thing is, the later and slower is it in reaching maturity. Man reaches the maturity of his reasoning and mental faculties scarcely before he is eight-and-twenty; woman when she is eighteen; but hers is reason of very narrow limitations. This is why women remain children all their lives, for they always see only what is near at hand, cling to the present, take the appearance of a thing for reality, and prefer trifling matters to the most important. It is by virtue of man’s reasoning powers that he does not live in the present only, like the brute, but observes and ponders over the past and future; and from this spring discretion, care, and that anxiety which we so frequently notice in people. The advantages, as well as the disadvantages, that this entails, make woman, in consequence of her weaker reasoning powers, less of a partaker in them. Moreover, she is intellectually short-sighted, for although her intuitive understanding quickly perceives what is near to her, on the other hand her circle of vision is limited and does not embrace anything that is remote; hence everything that is absent or past, or in the future, affects women in a less degree than men. This is why they have greater inclination for extravagance, which sometimes borders on madness. Women in their hearts think that men are intended to earn money so that they may spend it, if possible during their husband’s lifetime, but at any rate after his death.”

    Schopenhauer “On Women”

    “The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys.”

    Each side has some element of truth in their snark.

  64. Anon[256] • Disclaimer says:

    Grigoriadis has a beautiful, natural set of bazongas.

    This Grigoriadis?

    She’s of Greek extraction, but she seems so Jewish. She has a super buzzy vocal fry. Of Los Angeles she says she is surprised by “the frighteningly low velocity of idea exchange in casual conversation.”

    Madonna may be right about how age is mentioned more for women. Is that discrimination or the patriarchy, or is that because women and men are different, and the way they react to aging is different. Women peak higher and earlier than men in sexual desirability, and aging is more traumatic for them when they get past thirty than it is for men. Especially when you are in a profession where you sell with sex appeal, you are going to be hit harder by contemplating your age.

    So it makes sense that Madonna’s age is being emphasized. It’s probably something she herself thinks about a lot and puts a lot of effort into hiding. Grigoriadis is 45, married in 2006, so there could be some projection on her part.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/24/fashion/weddings/24grigoriadis.html

    I can’t find anything online about any children. And there’s this:

    I.V.F. Coverage Is the Benefit Everyone Wants
    Fertility drugs and treatments are expensive, but employers have increasingly begun to cover their cost.
    By Vanessa Grigoriadis
    Jan. 30, 2019

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/30/style/ivf-coverage.html

    I wonder if this was assigned to her, or whether the freelance, many outlets Grigoriadis thought up the idea herself and pitched it to the Times? Why would the subject of “Gosh, IVF is so expensive!” pop into her head? Her husband is some sort of set designer, not a moneybags. In such a gay profession, maybe his fertility has dropped, along with hers?

    Come the revolution, freelance female journalists will have health plans that cover at least three rounds of IVF.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    The wellspring of the misery.

    Madonna bought the con and never got around to building a solid family to care for/care for her in old age.

    She was a grasshopper and is paying the price.
    , @Redneck farmer
    So people smile and look more attractive. The rest of us need to keep our chompers covered.
    , @Known Fact
    Why are those NYT wedding stories always so barfworthy?
  65. @Rosie

    woman when she is eighteen
     
    Who needs science when you have the musings of a suicidal curmudgeon whose been dead for 200 years.

    He was deeply pessimist, in fact the most pessimist person ever, but not personally suicidal. He died of old age.

    Say what you will (no pun intended… I think) about old Schops, he’s one of the most brilliant minds ever. His essays on general topics, such as how to write, are usually very good. His essay on women is also very good, and true for the most part. Most people who criticize it haven’t read it, or just excerpts. I’ve never read much of his actual philosophy, except for the Wisdom of Life, which is a bit of a downer, but pretty easy to read (I don’t think the same applies to “The World as Will and Representation”.)

    About the gay thing, a lot of philosophers didn’t marry or have children (Nietzsche, Kant, Kierkegaard, etc) but they weren’t gay at all. Just not very successful with women. Women don’t really go for the philosopher type, it’s like kryptonite for them. Schopenhauer however seems to have had a few affairs and a couple of illegitimate children with maids.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    Say what you will (no pun intended… I think) about old Schops, he’s one of the most brilliant minds ever.
     
    I'm afraid I must disagree with you there.
  66. @SFG
    I read the article. It seemed pretty laudatory to me. It actually is pretty impressive to have a 40-year career in popular music...this is an area where you're lucky to be famous for a few weeks. I can't say I agree with Madonna on this or much else but the lady is a marketing genius to have lasted as long as she does.

    “It seemed pretty laudatory to me”.

    That’s how it would seem to men, but not to women, see comment 11 for an explanation.

    I agree with the person who said sending a young woman to do the interview was a bad mistake.

    Men are usually much more neutral (about either men or women), than women when talking about other women (women can’t stop competing).

    That’s one of the reasons feminism never really seems to work, women hate or are jealous of each other constantly. In fact feminism itself is perhaps more about women competing with each other than about men.

    • Replies: @Sextus Empiricus
    “In fact feminism itself is perhaps more about women competing with each other than about men.”

    Ah, like black/white relations are not about blacks vs. whites, but rather Goodwhites vs. Badwhites.
    , @SFG
    Ah, now I get it. Thank you.
    , @Pericles

    That’s one of the reasons feminism never really seems to work, women hate or are jealous of each other constantly.

     

    Ask a woman if she has a female boss.
  67. @Charles Erwin Wilson 3

    Grigoriadis has a beautiful, natural set of bazongas.
     
    How do you know? First hand experience? (Okay pun intended.)

    Hag Rock

  68. @Hypnotoad666

    Im sorry i spent 5 minutes with her. It makes me feel raped.
     

    “It took me a while to recover, and put such a bad taste in my mouth I wasn’t really interested in making music.” She added, “I felt raped.”
     
    In the 80's she was "Like a Virgin." Now she feels constantly raped. Getting old really does suck if you're a female pop star.

    Getting old really does suck if you’re a female pop star.

    With little taste or talent.

    • Replies: @TheMediumIsTheMassage
    She was once a phenomenal pop songwriter, she has the most Top 10 hits out of any act in the United States and she wrote most of the melody/lyrics herself. Being able to write that many songs that resonate with millions across several decades is ludicrously hard to do and takes real talent. I will defend old Madonna, but the current Madonna I cannot. Between nonsense like her reaction to this article and her "let's blow up the white house" speech she's become a parody of herself.
  69. I’ll say it: The article,and I read about half,I’d say,was a bore. Madonna’s history,her views,her triumphs blah blah blah she inspired girls,she inspired gays etc ad nauseum. One thing about her she loves Negroes!

    • Replies: @Bill B.

    I’ll say it: The article,and I read about half,I’d say,was a bore.
     
    It’s the modern style. Most feature articles now are bullet points in prose.

    I tried just now to read a buzzfeed piece on China’s surveillance state. A good topic and the writer had been quite diligent. But it was like wading through mud. I managed about 10 paragraphs.
  70. @anonymous
    Dennis Rodman.

    I said ALPHA, not weird, strange, and quasi-trans.

  71. @Anonymous
    Well, few women are as beautiful as Stormy. Also, few people could spend 130K on one night with that beauty.

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    Most pornstars that escort don’t charge 130k per night. (e.g. assuming that the top charge at most, 5k per hr, and a night is eight hours, ergo about 40k per night. And even that amount is quite high).

    The Donald did that cause he could.

    • Replies: @Pericles
    The high-priced hooker probably won't do eight old dudes in a single night, though it could be the next concept for one of those 'one weird night in New York' movies.
    , @The Wild Geese Howard
    The going rate for Gulf Arabs paying Instagram "models" for a weekend of degradation appears to be about $25 to 30k.
    , @guest
    The rich are taken advantage of in that fashion. But it's like me picking up a candy bar at a gas station knowing I could get it for thirty cents or whatever cheaper if I went to the grocery store. Okay, I overpaid. But I don't really care.
  72. @PennTothal

    In his time, President Trump was and remains an alpha. Does anyone seriously think that Donald Trump secretly lusted after the likes of Madonna?
     
    Donald may have offered her some drumstick at mar-a-lago in the 1990's

    https://www.vogue.com/article/donatella-versace-madonna-donald-trump

    As they say, believe that and they’ll tell you another one. Believe everything you read?

    Face off: Madonna vs Christie Brinkley in their primes. Which female would a normal adult male find most physically appealing?

  73. @Reg Cæsar
    She's living in Britain because nobody at home has taken her seriously for decades. (Except Camille Paglia, who grew up on the same water as Rod Serling.)

    She's basically Jerry Lewis across the Channel.

    nobody at home has taken her seriously for decades. (Except Camille Paglia

    Paglia has moved on. Her new girl-crush is Rihanna.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    At least Ri-Ri is a woman, and even somewhat feminine (especially compared to Madonna). That's another thing. No one has ever considered Madonna to be a girly girl, feminine woman, which is perhaps why she's never really been considered a sex symbol for men.
  74. @Hark hark the snark
    I’m reading vol 1 of Robert Caro’s biography of Lyndon Johnson. He describes the grueling workday of women on the farms of the Texas hill country before electrification of that region, which didn’t happen until the mid 30s. This was a dawn to dusk regimen of carrying heavy buckets of water for cooking and laundry; tending a wood fire stove in hot summers to bake bread since they couldnt afford store-bought bread; chopping wood; laundering dirty farm clothing by beating and stirring the water-logged clothing in washtub and lifting them with a stick to the rinse tub; ironing clothes with a wedge of iron heated up on the wood stove. They were permanently stooped over by the time they reached 35 years of age.

    I’d like to see some the spoiled bitches of our time deal with that.

    This was a dawn to dusk regimen of carrying heavy buckets of water for cooking and laundry.

    If you have a woman who’ll do all this stuff, hey, take advantage of it. Men solve these problems in other ways, digging irrigation systems and wells and building rainwater capture systems.

  75. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Observation: Ever notice that no alpha male has ever expressed any desire of finding Madonna attractive? None. Her biggest fans have always been gays and beta males. In his autobiography, OAK OF Jose Canseco made mention of his encounter with Madonna: "People always ask me about Madonna, what's she like? I tell them that I don't know. Go ask someone who's actually been with her." In other words, unlike say, one of her generations counterparts, Christie Brinkley, (who was very much considered desirable by alphas, and all males alike) Madonna was never seriously considered sexually appealing to regular (and alpha males in particular) men. Madonna has a far better chance of hooking up with Camille Paglia, one of her biggest admirers and supporters for decades, than she ever would with an actual alpha male.

    In his time, President Trump was and remains an alpha. Does anyone seriously think that Donald Trump secretly lusted after the likes of Madonna?

    A note to Katherine: Please do NOT post any smutty pictures of Madonna. That kind of thing does worse than all the cold showers combined.

    John F. Kennedy Jr was reported to have had a fling with Madonna. He was pretty alpha, wasn’t he, nailing Brooke Shields, Julia Roberts, Darryl Hannah and others in their prime? I recall that after the news of the affair broke, Jay Leno commented, “Let’s face it, it was inevitable, considering the odds.”

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    The word there is "reported', as in, "cannot be confirmed nor denied". Again, do you believe everything you read/hear from the MSM, especially the entertainment conglomerate? If anything, its more likely that Madonna's PR put that out at the time in order to heighten her Q factor in the sex appeal quotient. Look at the people she's married/used as sperm donors. Not Alpha in either looks department or in high testosterone in general. A few years ago she literally had to purchase a Brazilian(?) (South American nation) male model about 25 yrs her junior. She spent tons hiring tutors to teach him English. He later cheated on her with a woman around his own age, so there went that.

    For some reason, something strongly suggests that Madge isn't taking the part about aging gracefully very well.

    , @WowJustWow
    Julia Roberts wasn't pretty either, regardless of what one of her films was titled. You can't be too attractive if you're going to be America's Sweetheart (see also: Jennifer Aniston, Jennifer Lawrence). Other women have to be able to imagine you as being in their circle of friends without feeling overly threatened by you.
    , @Muggles
    Yet JFK Jr. married a controlling blonde bimbo who was known to be lusting after a male underwear model. A real shrew by most accounts.

    Then, while drifting away from his heavily subsidized political magazine, he goes kerplunk because being famous for being born, rich and for some reason a celebrity, didn't make him a good pilot.

    Gravity is a bitch. No matter who you think you are. Or who you used to sleep with (briefly).

    Rich young men who inherit everything are not necessarily Alpha males. The jury is still out on Trump, actually.
  76. @Almost Missouri
    Younger woman snarks about older woman; PATRIARCHY to blame; DEATH the demanded remedy.

    Grigoriadis is 45, not exactly young. The picture of her heading this post is very flattering; look at others and you’ll get a more realistic impression.

  77. @SunBakedSuburb
    "(Except Camille Paglia, who grew up on the same water as Rod Serling.)"

    Due to a girlfriend's insistence, I ended up reading a small portion of Paglia's work in the 90s. I don't recall her being as preachy as the overrated humanist preacher Serling.

    I agree about Paglia, I rather like her. There are concepts she discusses in her work that I hadn’t been exposed to in my education before I read “Sexual Personae” that she really brought home to me. She can be a little loopy, but she is far better than 90+% of the professoriate.

  78. @anon
    There has never been a Patriarchy.
    On the farm men worked in the barn and fields because they had the body strength needed for heavy labor. Women did the work around the home because they give birth and nurse the young, and it was therefore practicle for them to manage the home.
    If Grandpa was in the barn mending harnesses and Grandma was in the house mending clothes, that is not a Patriarchy. That is a Partnership and the division of labor was based on practical needs and in no way unfair. Both partners stayed endlessly busy.
    Post WWII prosperity and dramatic improvements in technology and mass distribution of technology made it possible for women to no longer work so hard at home. Our democracy made it possible for women to go to college. Women moved into the workplace in large numbers because of these practicle advances.
    Think of your own family history (I have just described the transition from my Grandmother, a farm wife, to my female cousins, all professional women).
    Did the fathers of my cousins forbid their daughters from going to college? No - they paid for it!
    Did male business owners refuse to hire my cousins? No - they all got jobs and succeeded.
    All this happened before Gloria Steinmen burned any bras and before Madonna declared war on men.
    Women have nothing to complain about. If they still have hard choices to make (to have a kid or have a career), and if life in the office is just as hard as life on the farm used to be, then tough cookies. Life is just hard - don't blame men.

    “There has never been a Patriarchy.”

    “The Patriarchy” is just another Jewish film-flam in the long history of Jewish flim-flam.

    • Replies: @El Dato
    I thought Jews were the arch-Patriarchs?
  79. @216
    A cursory search indicates that Madonna is worth hundreds of millions of dollars.

    She never once targeted the hatred of Sarah Jeong. She probably never will.

    Sign me up for the AOC 70% tax rate on the super-rich. They have done nothing but spread perversion, while being parasites on the largely white conservative middle-class parents that paid for most music purchases.

    It has always puzzled me that people who achieve great popular acclaim and massive fortunes in youth won’t let it go as they age – just live a comfortable life of ease and pleasure on the millions that they’ve been blessed with by capturing the attention of the great mass for a brief moment in time.

    Madonna, honey, you had the attention of the world for a brief window – something most of us will never know. You’ve been blessed with enormous wealth. But like everyone from the nameless cipher to Napoleon and Alexander, you are going to get old (if you’re lucky) and die. Take it easy on Vanessa, her journey is just beginning.

    • Agree: TTSSYF
  80. @Rosie

    woman when she is eighteen
     
    Who needs science when you have the musings of a suicidal curmudgeon whose been dead for 200 years.

    You didn’t point out the lie, tho.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    You didn’t point out the lie, tho.
     
    Yes, I did. The lie is that women reach their fullest reasoning and mental faculties at 18. This is a self-justifying fairy tale men tell themselves to justify robbing the cradle. For awhile there at the height of the alt-right anti-woman hysteria, guys were claiming that girls were ready for marriage at 13.
  81. Looks like Ms. Ciccone could use some lessons in how to use social media from a certain Mr. Donald Trump, an old member of the patriarchy.

    I had skipped over this particular iSteve entry when I saw the name “Madonna,” and now I remember why. All she does is come across as the bitter old hag she has deservedly become.

  82. @Bubba
    Grigoriadis has a beautiful, natural set of bazongas.

    What was she writing about again?

    • LOL: Bubba
    • Replies: @Pericles
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zm8UFuuubro
  83. Maybe the line, “Hope I die before I get old” should have been sung by a woman instead of Roger Daltrey?

  84. @Bubba
    Grigoriadis has a beautiful, natural set of bazongas.

    What was she writing about again?

    She’s wearing a pushup bra or something…m.heres a pic of her at a different angle:

    Not so um,.cough ample…..

    • Replies: @JimB
    And she looks like Shrek.
    , @The Wild Geese Howard
    Not really seeing the issue with Vanessa G.

    Her grin is a bit toothy, but it is genuine.

    Nice overall figure, defined waist, no visible signs of a gut. She has nice muscle tone in her arms, traps, and upper chest.

    Bust appears smaller than the photo posted at the top, but there are no obvious ill effects from gravity and time.
  85. @anon
    There has never been a Patriarchy.
    On the farm men worked in the barn and fields because they had the body strength needed for heavy labor. Women did the work around the home because they give birth and nurse the young, and it was therefore practicle for them to manage the home.
    If Grandpa was in the barn mending harnesses and Grandma was in the house mending clothes, that is not a Patriarchy. That is a Partnership and the division of labor was based on practical needs and in no way unfair. Both partners stayed endlessly busy.
    Post WWII prosperity and dramatic improvements in technology and mass distribution of technology made it possible for women to no longer work so hard at home. Our democracy made it possible for women to go to college. Women moved into the workplace in large numbers because of these practicle advances.
    Think of your own family history (I have just described the transition from my Grandmother, a farm wife, to my female cousins, all professional women).
    Did the fathers of my cousins forbid their daughters from going to college? No - they paid for it!
    Did male business owners refuse to hire my cousins? No - they all got jobs and succeeded.
    All this happened before Gloria Steinmen burned any bras and before Madonna declared war on men.
    Women have nothing to complain about. If they still have hard choices to make (to have a kid or have a career), and if life in the office is just as hard as life on the farm used to be, then tough cookies. Life is just hard - don't blame men.

    Patriarchy only incidentally refers to the sexual and social domination of men over women. Younger reproductive women tend to be ruled over by older women, usually through religion.

    The real business of patriarchy is the rule of older Alpha-males (up to and including God, the uber alpha–male) over younger would-be Alpha-males. Young males have to be trained and disciplined to be procreators of children, providers for their fsmilies and protectors of their turf. Sacred Rituals such as initations reinforce this training.

    Elsewise they can go feral, and go down the Lord of the Flies track, with maybe some Young Turk rebellion against the Elders of the Tribe. In short they have to be made into husbands, which can mean house bound in Norse.

    Patriarchy has substantially collapsed over the past generation. But it has been the delinquency of the elder Alpha-males (Davos et al) rather than juvenile delinquency that has upset the patriarchal apple cart. Not enough shot gun marriages.

    Young men are lost and need patriarchal direction. This is what is driving Jordan Petersens stellar career.

    • Agree: Old Prude
  86. @Dumbo

    "It seemed pretty laudatory to me".
     
    That's how it would seem to men, but not to women, see comment 11 for an explanation.

    I agree with the person who said sending a young woman to do the interview was a bad mistake.

    Men are usually much more neutral (about either men or women), than women when talking about other women (women can't stop competing).

    That's one of the reasons feminism never really seems to work, women hate or are jealous of each other constantly. In fact feminism itself is perhaps more about women competing with each other than about men.

    “In fact feminism itself is perhaps more about women competing with each other than about men.”

    Ah, like black/white relations are not about blacks vs. whites, but rather Goodwhites vs. Badwhites.

    • Replies: @Alan Mercer
    Good point. There's a Law to be discovered here.
  87. @Rosie

    I’d like to see some the spoiled bitches of our time deal with that.
     
    So I guess when the men around here say men built civilization, they're not telling the whole truth, are they?

    My complaint is with with the women of our time who blame the so-called patriarchy (men) for their ills. The plain fact is that men invented and built industrial scale electrification and the appliances that eased the burden of women and men alike. Women nowadays have no appreciation for what men in the past—the “patriarchy”—have provided for them.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    Here we go again.

    Sorry Rosie and Hark, the War Between the Sexes will never be won, yada yada, fraternizing yada yada.

    Not to hijack, but when a male stops and considers what it would be like to be a female of a species in which the males are mostly much bigger, physically a lot stronger, more aggressive, and horny as hell, he should not be surprised that females might see things differently. Imagine how they have to survive and get along surrounded by giant warrior-hunter types who mostly just want to screw them?

    It's downright scary, but somehow they do it. I wouldn't trade places with them if you gave me Bruce Jenner's fortune and his Ferrari, and his R/C helicopter collection.

    BTW there are lots of women who haven't forgotten what men have done and continue to do for them. It's mostly dopey, mostly young, American, impressionable types who buy into the opposite. And don't even listen when women try to tell you that their problems are your fault. Ignore them and find others.
    , @Rosie

    Women nowadays have no appreciation for what men in the past—the “patriarchy”—have provided for them.
     
    There you go casting women as passive recipients of male beneficence, as if we weren't there the whole time, toiling and sacrificing for a better future. We do not accept your implicit claim that men's contributions are more important and valuable than ours.
  88. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Observation: Ever notice that no alpha male has ever expressed any desire of finding Madonna attractive? None. Her biggest fans have always been gays and beta males. In his autobiography, OAK OF Jose Canseco made mention of his encounter with Madonna: "People always ask me about Madonna, what's she like? I tell them that I don't know. Go ask someone who's actually been with her." In other words, unlike say, one of her generations counterparts, Christie Brinkley, (who was very much considered desirable by alphas, and all males alike) Madonna was never seriously considered sexually appealing to regular (and alpha males in particular) men. Madonna has a far better chance of hooking up with Camille Paglia, one of her biggest admirers and supporters for decades, than she ever would with an actual alpha male.

    In his time, President Trump was and remains an alpha. Does anyone seriously think that Donald Trump secretly lusted after the likes of Madonna?

    A note to Katherine: Please do NOT post any smutty pictures of Madonna. That kind of thing does worse than all the cold showers combined.

    The biggest fans of any female pop star are always gay men (and straight women) so nothing out of the ordinary there. As far as attracting ‘alpha men’, you’re wrong. Sean Penn, Warren Beatty and Guy Ritchie are all pretty much the definition of alpha men who could get any woman they want, and they all had long-term relationships with her.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Keep in mind that being on the Alist in Hollywood is an automatic chick magnet. Example: Harvey Weinstein. He probably could've gotten Madonna early in her career. Does that make Weinstein an alpha? Or Woody Allen for that matter. He was on the Alist as well for a fairly long time, and got himself quite a few women above his natural looks department.

    Guy Ritchie, the one who did music videos? Oh, yeah, right, sure, whatever. A real alpha. Mm-hm. Sean Penn, at one time, perhaps (compared to Mel Gibson, no). Warren Beatty at ca.age 55, sure, if that's all she could get. And Warren was slowing down by that time, look who he ended up marrying. Plane Jane Annette Benning. Don't forget the sperm donor she allegedly saw in Central Park and decided she wanted to have his baby.

    Jose Canseco had better taste and turned her down.

    , @Old Prude
    These aren't Alphas, they're celebrities. Didn't someone say something about women will let celebrities snatch their snatch?
  89. @Harry Baldwin
    John F. Kennedy Jr was reported to have had a fling with Madonna. He was pretty alpha, wasn't he, nailing Brooke Shields, Julia Roberts, Darryl Hannah and others in their prime? I recall that after the news of the affair broke, Jay Leno commented, "Let's face it, it was inevitable, considering the odds."

    The word there is “reported’, as in, “cannot be confirmed nor denied”. Again, do you believe everything you read/hear from the MSM, especially the entertainment conglomerate? If anything, its more likely that Madonna’s PR put that out at the time in order to heighten her Q factor in the sex appeal quotient. Look at the people she’s married/used as sperm donors. Not Alpha in either looks department or in high testosterone in general. A few years ago she literally had to purchase a Brazilian(?) (South American nation) male model about 25 yrs her junior. She spent tons hiring tutors to teach him English. He later cheated on her with a woman around his own age, so there went that.

    For some reason, something strongly suggests that Madge isn’t taking the part about aging gracefully very well.

    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    You don't have to believe them, but there's plenty of accounts of their affair, including that JFK Jr introduced Madonna to Jackie, who was unimpressed.

    BTW, Warren Beatty also had an affair with Madonna. He was with her when she made that movie about her Blond Ambition tour. Do you doubt that?
  90. @Brabantian
    In other notable person news -

    This past week, a wave of 10 politically-related deaths / murders / suicides in the USA

    Tony Rodham, Hillary Clinton's youngest brother, age 65, cause of death 'not immediately known'

    New York Police Detective Joseph Calabrese, said to have seen the laptop of convicted Anthony Weiner with Hillary's e-mails, 'suicide'

    New York Police Detective Steven Silks, said to have seen the laptop of convicted Anthony Weiner with Hillary's e-mails, 'suicide'

    Billionaire Democrat media owner Herbert Sandler linked to Hillary, dead

    US Commerce Official Lola Gulomova, previously of NASA & the World Bank, 'killed in murder-suicide'

    Republican former Arkansas state senator Linda Collins-Smith, 'found dead with gunshot wound'

    Republican former Oklahoma state senator Jonathan Nichols, 'found dead with gunshot wound'

    Florida news anchor & reporter Todd Tongen, 'suicide'

    'LGBT leader' Philadelphia Sheriff Deputy Dante Austin, 'found dead at his desk'

    Kemah, Texas Police Chief Chris Reed, 'thrown from his fishing boat' missing & presumed dead

    This is in addition to the murder of leading German pro-migrant politician Walter Lübcke, found last Sunday in his garden with a bullet in his head ... Lübcke was famous for telling Germans millions of migrants were coming, period, and they could leave Germany if they didn't like it
    https://i.ibb.co/TBSpZg3/im-not-saying-its-a-conspiracy-but-its-a-conspiracy.jpg

    It’s not a Conspiracy. It’s just the Patriarchy.

  91. She’s completely wrong about the writer bringing up her age because she’s a woman. Practically every article on the Rolling Stones since 1980 has mentioned their age. Almost every article on “aging punk rockers” mentions age, as do the ones about dance artists like New Kids on the Block.

    I hope people are shrewd enough not to buy her flawed line of thinking. What a bundle of trendy cliches she’s spouting.

  92. @peterike
    “There has never been a Patriarchy.”

    “The Patriarchy” is just another Jewish film-flam in the long history of Jewish flim-flam.

    I thought Jews were the arch-Patriarchs?

    • Replies: @SFG
    In biblical times, yes.

    The modern culture is quite female-dominated, and there are lots of internal jokes (or used to be before PC) about shrewish, dominating Jewish women.

    I did once get my mom to admit she didn't find Jewish guys all that masculine, but didn't push the obvious conclusion. She is my mom after all.
  93. @Reg Cæsar

    Getting old really does suck if you’re a female pop star.
     
    With little taste or talent.

    She was once a phenomenal pop songwriter, she has the most Top 10 hits out of any act in the United States and she wrote most of the melody/lyrics herself. Being able to write that many songs that resonate with millions across several decades is ludicrously hard to do and takes real talent. I will defend old Madonna, but the current Madonna I cannot. Between nonsense like her reaction to this article and her “let’s blow up the white house” speech she’s become a parody of herself.

    • Agree: TTSSYF
    • Replies: @Daniel H
    >>She was once a phenomenal pop songwriter, she has the most Top 10 hits out of any act in the United States and she wrote most of the melody/lyrics herself. Being able to write that many songs that resonate with millions across

    Madonna sings like a chipmunk, not like a woman. She can't hold a candle to Christine McVie, Stevie Nicks, Carole King, Anne Murray, Barbara Streisand, Melanie, Judy Collins, Joan Baez, Donna Summer, Aretha........ Madonna is childish.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    She was once a phenomenal pop songwriter...
     
    I'm a song buff with extensive familiarity with Tin Pan Alley, Broadway, Hollywood, and '60s rock-and-roll and R&B. Only two of Madonna's hits stick in my mind-- "Material Girl" and "La Isla Bonita".

    https://www.songfacts.com/facts/madonna/material-girl

    This was written by the songwriters Peter Brown and Robert Rans.

    https://www.songfacts.com/facts/madonna/la-isla-bonita

    Songwriter and producer Patrick Leonard wrote this for Michael Jackson...

    Her other iconic hit:

    https://www.songfacts.com/facts/madonna/like-a-virgin

    The songwriting team of Tom Kelly and Billy Steinberg wrote this...

    As Bette Midler quipped, "The only thing that girl will do like a virgin is have a baby in a stable."


    For what it's worth, "Girls Just Want to Have Fun" was also composed by a guy. Cindy Lauper did alter the lyrics, though.

    https://www.songfacts.com/facts/cyndi-lauper/girls-just-want-to-have-fun

    I will be second to no one in my awe for her marketing talents. But musically, Madonna isn't even the best act associated with Bay City, Michigan.


    http://www.laut.de/Bay-City-Rollers/bay-city-rollers-164395.jpg

  94. @anon
    "Usually the intellectuals that put down women’s mental abilities tend to be gay. The reasoning is fairly obvious. Women are rivals for men’s physical affections."

    Right, and denigrating women's mental acuity is the surest way to convince a guy to switch teams. I bet you write romance novels under an alias.

    That wasn’t what was stated. Basically gays when preening for straight males tend to up their misogyny (basically jealous toward women who get men) a few levels. It doesn’t work, but they can always hold onto hope that perhaps it might.

  95. @Hark hark the snark
    My complaint is with with the women of our time who blame the so-called patriarchy (men) for their ills. The plain fact is that men invented and built industrial scale electrification and the appliances that eased the burden of women and men alike. Women nowadays have no appreciation for what men in the past—the “patriarchy”—have provided for them.

    Here we go again.

    Sorry Rosie and Hark, the War Between the Sexes will never be won, yada yada, fraternizing yada yada.

    Not to hijack, but when a male stops and considers what it would be like to be a female of a species in which the males are mostly much bigger, physically a lot stronger, more aggressive, and horny as hell, he should not be surprised that females might see things differently. Imagine how they have to survive and get along surrounded by giant warrior-hunter types who mostly just want to screw them?

    It’s downright scary, but somehow they do it. I wouldn’t trade places with them if you gave me Bruce Jenner’s fortune and his Ferrari, and his R/C helicopter collection.

    BTW there are lots of women who haven’t forgotten what men have done and continue to do for them. It’s mostly dopey, mostly young, American, impressionable types who buy into the opposite. And don’t even listen when women try to tell you that their problems are your fault. Ignore them and find others.

    • Replies: @SFG
    I'd do it for the extra 6 years of life, but only in some weird theoretical thought experiment where you're reborn as a real one, not some surgically altered Jenner-style *thing*. Besides, being a dominatrix sounds like fun, and I could divorce guys and live off the alimony.

    Of course, my second thought was "of course, I would be a lesbian".

    , @Pericles

    Imagine how they have to survive and get along surrounded by giant warrior-hunter types who mostly just want to screw them?

     

    As someone once noted regarding this, "do you ever dream of being in prison?"

    Then again, sooner or later, the giant warrior-hunter utters the fatal words, "yes dear".
    , @MikeatMikedotMike
    "Not to hijack, but when a male stops and considers what it would be like to be a female of a species in which the males are mostly much bigger, physically a lot stronger, more aggressive, and horny as hell, he should not be surprised that females might see things differently. Imagine how they have to survive and get along surrounded by giant warrior-hunter types who mostly just want to screw them?

    I imagine it wasn't nearly as scary for them as you suggest. Women by nature evolved to be attracted to these types of males. All they had the do to survive (within the context of this discussion) was provide sex when it was demanded. The psychological significance/baggage that is associated with intercourse is a very recent development in human history.

    We see it manifested to today as most powerful/successful/famous males have unlimited access to the wares of females; females who are not dependent upon the latter's provisions for survival.

    Women (and men, for that matter) only started seeing things different when they no longer had to toil all day everyday to ensure their own survival. Ironically men and women now have large portions of their day available to sit and ponder how unbearably hard their lives are.
    , @Lagertha
    there you go again: making me laugh when I haven't wanted to for weeks! Isn't it weird that we are all typing about the relevance of Madonna!?!!!
  96. @TTSSYF
    Grigoriadis is not exactly a spring chicken at 45, notwithstanding the picture that makes her appear to be about 30.

    While I despise Madonna for a variety of reason, I knew plenty of men in the 1980s who thought she was very attractive. What she needs to understand is that her 15 minutes of fame is up. Fighting to remain relevant only makes her look like a fool. She should accept it graciously, withdraw from the limelight, and be content with her past success and wealth. An older person getting into a cat fight with a younger person is a losing game.

    I would have to see these people. Only time Madonna came up among straight men with any amount of testosterone was as a punch line to a joke. Generally, her fan base was women, along with gays. Now if you want to compare her to Christie Brinkley, or even Cindy Crawford as to which woman that guys were definitely into at the time, think the results will be fairly obvious (not Madonna).

    Madonna = Sex Symbol for guys never caught on, and was only an idea among her PRs and handlers.

    LIKE a Virgin, as opposed to AS a sexy woman (Christie Brinkley). Just put the two women’s headshots from their prime years (under 30) side by side, to better understand.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

    Generally, her fan base was women, along with gays.
     
    And the women were the fag-hag type who liked to have gay friends and go to faggy dance bars. They liked black boys too.

    It's beginning to look like there are two types of heterosexual American women (or were then): The aforementioned ones, and the others who never really cared for any of those things. It was confusing for a single man.

    Most likely now they have separated politically into Right and Left. Probably were already then.
    , @Duke84
    I turned 18 in 1984 when Madonna was really big and I don't remember any guys thinking she was particularly sexy or attractive.It seemed like almost all of her fans were girls.
    , @TTSSYF
    I'm not saying I understand it. I'm just saying I heard it said. And that isn't to say that her fan base wasn't predominantly female or gay, or that she was ever as beautiful as Christie Brinkley or Cindy Crawford. I was merely making the point that some straight guys I knew in the 1980s thought she was attractive when she was about 27. Why is that such an utter impossibility? There's no accounting for taste.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    I would have to see these people. Only time Madonna came up among straight men with any amount of testosterone was as a punch line to a joke.
     
    A stand-up comic in the '80s went into detail about how women hated Madonna, summing it up by hissing "She's a tramp!"

    He continued, "Men? Men like Madonna. Because, well... she's a tramp."


    By "like", I don't think he meant "attracted to". More like, "It's good to have some of her kind around."
    , @Marty
    My first awareness of Madonna was when I went to see DSS in the spring of '85. Two things happened. First, I fell in lust with Rosanna Arquette. Second, I became transfixed by "Into The Groove," which I still find to be one of the catchiest tunes ever. As I look back on the film now, what stands out to me is the scene where Madonna tries to shoplift the cool boots at the secondhand store. The shoplifter is white, the storeowner careful to prevent shoplifting is black ("baby - stay on the carpet, OK?")
  97. @Anon

    Grigoriadis has a beautiful, natural set of bazongas.
     
    This Grigoriadis?

    https://media.guestofaguest.com/t_gallery_slide/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Vanessa_Grigoriadis1.jpg

    She's of Greek extraction, but she seems so Jewish. She has a super buzzy vocal fry. Of Los Angeles she says she is surprised by "the frighteningly low velocity of idea exchange in casual conversation."

    Madonna may be right about how age is mentioned more for women. Is that discrimination or the patriarchy, or is that because women and men are different, and the way they react to aging is different. Women peak higher and earlier than men in sexual desirability, and aging is more traumatic for them when they get past thirty than it is for men. Especially when you are in a profession where you sell with sex appeal, you are going to be hit harder by contemplating your age.

    So it makes sense that Madonna's age is being emphasized. It's probably something she herself thinks about a lot and puts a lot of effort into hiding. Grigoriadis is 45, married in 2006, so there could be some projection on her part.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/24/fashion/weddings/24grigoriadis.html

    I can't find anything online about any children. And there's this:

    I.V.F. Coverage Is the Benefit Everyone Wants
    Fertility drugs and treatments are expensive, but employers have increasingly begun to cover their cost.
    By Vanessa Grigoriadis
    Jan. 30, 2019

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/30/style/ivf-coverage.html

    I wonder if this was assigned to her, or whether the freelance, many outlets Grigoriadis thought up the idea herself and pitched it to the Times? Why would the subject of "Gosh, IVF is so expensive!" pop into her head? Her husband is some sort of set designer, not a moneybags. In such a gay profession, maybe his fertility has dropped, along with hers?

    Come the revolution, freelance female journalists will have health plans that cover at least three rounds of IVF.

    The wellspring of the misery.

    Madonna bought the con and never got around to building a solid family to care for/care for her in old age.

    She was a grasshopper and is paying the price.

  98. Bill Burr on Madonna and the Women’s March.

  99. @Harry Baldwin
    nobody at home has taken her seriously for decades. (Except Camille Paglia

    Paglia has moved on. Her new girl-crush is Rihanna.

    At least Ri-Ri is a woman, and even somewhat feminine (especially compared to Madonna). That’s another thing. No one has ever considered Madonna to be a girly girl, feminine woman, which is perhaps why she’s never really been considered a sex symbol for men.

  100. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    I would have to see these people. Only time Madonna came up among straight men with any amount of testosterone was as a punch line to a joke. Generally, her fan base was women, along with gays. Now if you want to compare her to Christie Brinkley, or even Cindy Crawford as to which woman that guys were definitely into at the time, think the results will be fairly obvious (not Madonna).

    Madonna = Sex Symbol for guys never caught on, and was only an idea among her PRs and handlers.

    LIKE a Virgin, as opposed to AS a sexy woman (Christie Brinkley). Just put the two women's headshots from their prime years (under 30) side by side, to better understand.

    Generally, her fan base was women, along with gays.

    And the women were the fag-hag type who liked to have gay friends and go to faggy dance bars. They liked black boys too.

    It’s beginning to look like there are two types of heterosexual American women (or were then): The aforementioned ones, and the others who never really cared for any of those things. It was confusing for a single man.

    Most likely now they have separated politically into Right and Left. Probably were already then.

  101. @TheMediumIsTheMassage
    The biggest fans of any female pop star are always gay men (and straight women) so nothing out of the ordinary there. As far as attracting 'alpha men', you're wrong. Sean Penn, Warren Beatty and Guy Ritchie are all pretty much the definition of alpha men who could get any woman they want, and they all had long-term relationships with her.

    Keep in mind that being on the Alist in Hollywood is an automatic chick magnet. Example: Harvey Weinstein. He probably could’ve gotten Madonna early in her career. Does that make Weinstein an alpha? Or Woody Allen for that matter. He was on the Alist as well for a fairly long time, and got himself quite a few women above his natural looks department.

    Guy Ritchie, the one who did music videos? Oh, yeah, right, sure, whatever. A real alpha. Mm-hm. Sean Penn, at one time, perhaps (compared to Mel Gibson, no). Warren Beatty at ca.age 55, sure, if that’s all she could get. And Warren was slowing down by that time, look who he ended up marrying. Plane Jane Annette Benning. Don’t forget the sperm donor she allegedly saw in Central Park and decided she wanted to have his baby.

    Jose Canseco had better taste and turned her down.

    • Replies: @TheMediumIsTheMassage
    Guy Ritchie doesn't do music videos, he does tough guy crime films about the underbelly of London like Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels and Snatch. And he's quite attractive. Definitely an alpha. But probably not as alpha as Madonna, who is just an uber alpha human.
  102. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Keep in mind that being on the Alist in Hollywood is an automatic chick magnet. Example: Harvey Weinstein. He probably could've gotten Madonna early in her career. Does that make Weinstein an alpha? Or Woody Allen for that matter. He was on the Alist as well for a fairly long time, and got himself quite a few women above his natural looks department.

    Guy Ritchie, the one who did music videos? Oh, yeah, right, sure, whatever. A real alpha. Mm-hm. Sean Penn, at one time, perhaps (compared to Mel Gibson, no). Warren Beatty at ca.age 55, sure, if that's all she could get. And Warren was slowing down by that time, look who he ended up marrying. Plane Jane Annette Benning. Don't forget the sperm donor she allegedly saw in Central Park and decided she wanted to have his baby.

    Jose Canseco had better taste and turned her down.

    Guy Ritchie doesn’t do music videos, he does tough guy crime films about the underbelly of London like Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels and Snatch. And he’s quite attractive. Definitely an alpha. But probably not as alpha as Madonna, who is just an uber alpha human.

    • Replies: @HammerJack

    Definitely an alpha. But probably not as alpha as Madonna, who is just an uber alpha human.
     
    You already said that you're gay, and most of us are OK with that. Why so coy now?
    , @Rightwing Pugilist
    You might want to update your references there Gramps, Ritchie made those movies 20 years ago -- not that he has made that much worth paying attention to since then. Madonna did "inspire" him to make some truly awful movies though!
  103. @Dumbo
    He was deeply pessimist, in fact the most pessimist person ever, but not personally suicidal. He died of old age.

    Say what you will (no pun intended... I think) about old Schops, he's one of the most brilliant minds ever. His essays on general topics, such as how to write, are usually very good. His essay on women is also very good, and true for the most part. Most people who criticize it haven't read it, or just excerpts. I've never read much of his actual philosophy, except for the Wisdom of Life, which is a bit of a downer, but pretty easy to read (I don't think the same applies to "The World as Will and Representation".)

    About the gay thing, a lot of philosophers didn't marry or have children (Nietzsche, Kant, Kierkegaard, etc) but they weren't gay at all. Just not very successful with women. Women don't really go for the philosopher type, it's like kryptonite for them. Schopenhauer however seems to have had a few affairs and a couple of illegitimate children with maids.

    Say what you will (no pun intended… I think) about old Schops, he’s one of the most brilliant minds ever.

    I’m afraid I must disagree with you there.

    • Replies: @vinteuil
    Don't judge Schopenhauer by a single excerpt from a single essay. As a philosopher, he's in the same league as Hegel, and as a writer, he's in the same league as Nietzsche.
  104. @BenKenobi
    You didn't point out the lie, tho.

    You didn’t point out the lie, tho.

    Yes, I did. The lie is that women reach their fullest reasoning and mental faculties at 18. This is a self-justifying fairy tale men tell themselves to justify robbing the cradle. For awhile there at the height of the alt-right anti-woman hysteria, guys were claiming that girls were ready for marriage at 13.

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
    You forgot the funniest part. The more anti-Semitic ones justified it using the Old Testament.
    , @Pericles
    Preposterous, women are only ready to be married after 30, and then only for a few years.
    , @Alice in Wonderland
    "The lie is that women reach their fullest reasoning and mental faculties at 18."

    People who cannot solve novel problems by age 15 never can. So, by measured performance, the human brain reaches mature reasoning ability by 15. Obviously people learn lots after age 15, both those capable of solving novel problems and those who can't. However, the formal operational stage is reached by age 15 or it is never reached. Likely women are mentally mature before men because they are physically mature before men.

    , @Colin Wright
    'Yes, I did. The lie is that women reach their fullest reasoning and mental faculties at 18. This is a self-justifying fairy tale men tell themselves to justify robbing the cradle. For awhile there at the height of the alt-right anti-woman hysteria, guys were claiming that girls were ready for marriage at 13.'

    There are a couple of possible replies to that. One of them is, who is ever ready for marriage?

    But seriously, yeah, thirteen is too young.
  105. @ricpic
    Older people in general hate younger people. Many won't admit it, but it's there. I'm a 77 year old man and a general dislike of the stupid young (I too was once young and stupid) has grown in me. Proud of it? Ashamed? Neither. It's just another component of growing old.

    As you get older, you cannot suffer young fools. But you don’t envy them.

    • Replies: @Daniel H
    >> As you get older, you cannot suffer young fools. But you don’t envy them.

    Actually, I do envy them, because youth is always to be envied. Sighhhhhhh.
  106. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    I would have to see these people. Only time Madonna came up among straight men with any amount of testosterone was as a punch line to a joke. Generally, her fan base was women, along with gays. Now if you want to compare her to Christie Brinkley, or even Cindy Crawford as to which woman that guys were definitely into at the time, think the results will be fairly obvious (not Madonna).

    Madonna = Sex Symbol for guys never caught on, and was only an idea among her PRs and handlers.

    LIKE a Virgin, as opposed to AS a sexy woman (Christie Brinkley). Just put the two women's headshots from their prime years (under 30) side by side, to better understand.

    I turned 18 in 1984 when Madonna was really big and I don’t remember any guys thinking she was particularly sexy or attractive.It seemed like almost all of her fans were girls.

  107. anon[279] • Disclaimer says:
    @Hark hark the snark
    I’m reading vol 1 of Robert Caro’s biography of Lyndon Johnson. He describes the grueling workday of women on the farms of the Texas hill country before electrification of that region, which didn’t happen until the mid 30s. This was a dawn to dusk regimen of carrying heavy buckets of water for cooking and laundry; tending a wood fire stove in hot summers to bake bread since they couldnt afford store-bought bread; chopping wood; laundering dirty farm clothing by beating and stirring the water-logged clothing in washtub and lifting them with a stick to the rinse tub; ironing clothes with a wedge of iron heated up on the wood stove. They were permanently stooped over by the time they reached 35 years of age.

    I’d like to see some the spoiled bitches of our time deal with that.

    It’s a great read, but it’s also bullshit from start to finish.
    Johnson and the Democratic Party did well out of the electrification of rural Texas, but Caro presents Johnson as a sometimes unscrupulous person whose heart was in the right place, and the story about the farm wives and their ”sad irons” is part of the myth making.

  108. @Hark hark the snark
    My complaint is with with the women of our time who blame the so-called patriarchy (men) for their ills. The plain fact is that men invented and built industrial scale electrification and the appliances that eased the burden of women and men alike. Women nowadays have no appreciation for what men in the past—the “patriarchy”—have provided for them.

    Women nowadays have no appreciation for what men in the past—the “patriarchy”—have provided for them.

    There you go casting women as passive recipients of male beneficence, as if we weren’t there the whole time, toiling and sacrificing for a better future. We do not accept your implicit claim that men’s contributions are more important and valuable than ours.

    • Replies: @HammerJack

    We do not accept your implicit claim that men’s contributions are more important and valuable than ours.
     
    Fine with me. Just don't pretend you're some sort of reality-based creature now. Or do you mean "in theory" as opposed to "in practice"? And do you mean in the future as opposed to in the past?
    , @Bel Riose
    Well then...

    List what you consider to be women's top 10 contributions to civilization.

    I, or someone else, will then list what we consider to be men's top 10 contributions toward civilization.

    And then we can compare lists.

    How's that?

    , @Alice in Wonderland

    There you go casting women as passive recipients of male beneficence, as if we weren’t there the whole time, toiling and sacrificing for a better future. We do not accept your implicit claim that men’s contributions are more important and valuable than ours.
     
    Toiling and sacrificing in no way precludes being a passive recipient of male beneficence.

    Men created the stuff that made life better for everyone.

    FWIW horses toiled plenty, too. But they did not establish good governance nor create the innovations that so eased the burdens of daily life. Men did.

    As a woman, I can definitely say men's contributions are far far more important and valuable than women's and horses' for that matter.

    , @Anonymous
    Female companionship, maternal love and care, are uniquely valuable and simply cannot be compared with what men do, which is qualitatively different. However, they are not unique to civilization or advanced societies. If anything, they're diminished with the advance and decadence of society. They are present in simpler societies, and among animals as well.

    The "toiling" in homemaking tasks is done out of a division of labor, and results from comparative advantage, rather than absolute advantage. In general, men have an absolute advantage not just in traditional "men's work" such as farming, hunting, tinkering, laboring, etc., but also in household tasks i.e. traditionally "women's work" such as cooking and cleaning. Men make the best chefs, have greater strength to scrub floors and clean, etc. But men also have a greater opportunity cost: if they're inside cooking and scrubbing, they're not harvesting crops and hauling in meat. While women generally can't farm and hunt as well, so their opportunity cost is much less if they stick to cooking and cleaning inside. Thus it's better for the man to farm and hunt and the woman to provide cooking, cleaning, and general homemaking services, and for them to share i.e. trade the greater proceeds with each other. This is the comparative advantage theory of trade applied to the married household.
  109. @Sextus Empiricus
    “In fact feminism itself is perhaps more about women competing with each other than about men.”

    Ah, like black/white relations are not about blacks vs. whites, but rather Goodwhites vs. Badwhites.

    Good point. There’s a Law to be discovered here.

  110. @TED
    Madonna needs to see the movie "Sunset Boulevard". Take several hours pondering the character "Norma Desmond", and then spend several hours looking in the mirror.

    That’s exactly the picture that came to mind too. Except the claim, “I’m BIG…it’s the music industry that got small.’ would have greater validity that Norma’s.

  111. @Anon

    Grigoriadis has a beautiful, natural set of bazongas.
     
    This Grigoriadis?

    https://media.guestofaguest.com/t_gallery_slide/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Vanessa_Grigoriadis1.jpg

    She's of Greek extraction, but she seems so Jewish. She has a super buzzy vocal fry. Of Los Angeles she says she is surprised by "the frighteningly low velocity of idea exchange in casual conversation."

    Madonna may be right about how age is mentioned more for women. Is that discrimination or the patriarchy, or is that because women and men are different, and the way they react to aging is different. Women peak higher and earlier than men in sexual desirability, and aging is more traumatic for them when they get past thirty than it is for men. Especially when you are in a profession where you sell with sex appeal, you are going to be hit harder by contemplating your age.

    So it makes sense that Madonna's age is being emphasized. It's probably something she herself thinks about a lot and puts a lot of effort into hiding. Grigoriadis is 45, married in 2006, so there could be some projection on her part.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/24/fashion/weddings/24grigoriadis.html

    I can't find anything online about any children. And there's this:

    I.V.F. Coverage Is the Benefit Everyone Wants
    Fertility drugs and treatments are expensive, but employers have increasingly begun to cover their cost.
    By Vanessa Grigoriadis
    Jan. 30, 2019

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/30/style/ivf-coverage.html

    I wonder if this was assigned to her, or whether the freelance, many outlets Grigoriadis thought up the idea herself and pitched it to the Times? Why would the subject of "Gosh, IVF is so expensive!" pop into her head? Her husband is some sort of set designer, not a moneybags. In such a gay profession, maybe his fertility has dropped, along with hers?

    Come the revolution, freelance female journalists will have health plans that cover at least three rounds of IVF.

    So people smile and look more attractive. The rest of us need to keep our chompers covered.

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
    Some people
  112. @Rosie

    You didn’t point out the lie, tho.
     
    Yes, I did. The lie is that women reach their fullest reasoning and mental faculties at 18. This is a self-justifying fairy tale men tell themselves to justify robbing the cradle. For awhile there at the height of the alt-right anti-woman hysteria, guys were claiming that girls were ready for marriage at 13.

    You forgot the funniest part. The more anti-Semitic ones justified it using the Old Testament.

  113. @BB753
    As you get older, you cannot suffer young fools. But you don't envy them.

    >> As you get older, you cannot suffer young fools. But you don’t envy them.

    Actually, I do envy them, because youth is always to be envied. Sighhhhhhh.

  114. @Redneck farmer
    So people smile and look more attractive. The rest of us need to keep our chompers covered.

    Some people

  115. @TheMediumIsTheMassage
    She was once a phenomenal pop songwriter, she has the most Top 10 hits out of any act in the United States and she wrote most of the melody/lyrics herself. Being able to write that many songs that resonate with millions across several decades is ludicrously hard to do and takes real talent. I will defend old Madonna, but the current Madonna I cannot. Between nonsense like her reaction to this article and her "let's blow up the white house" speech she's become a parody of herself.

    >>She was once a phenomenal pop songwriter, she has the most Top 10 hits out of any act in the United States and she wrote most of the melody/lyrics herself. Being able to write that many songs that resonate with millions across

    Madonna sings like a chipmunk, not like a woman. She can’t hold a candle to Christine McVie, Stevie Nicks, Carole King, Anne Murray, Barbara Streisand, Melanie, Judy Collins, Joan Baez, Donna Summer, Aretha…….. Madonna is childish.

  116. @Lawyer Guy
    Is this a planned fake Hollywood "fight", or is the Kabala worshiper sure we unwashed in Middle America will buy any kind of crap no matter how poorly packaged?

    In pro wrestling talk, is it a work or a shoot? Maybe a bit of both.

  117. @Rosie

    Say what you will (no pun intended… I think) about old Schops, he’s one of the most brilliant minds ever.
     
    I'm afraid I must disagree with you there.

    Don’t judge Schopenhauer by a single excerpt from a single essay. As a philosopher, he’s in the same league as Hegel, and as a writer, he’s in the same league as Nietzsche.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    She’s not judging him, she’s being solipsistic, as women will. We could be discussing a Bill Burr video and she’s be saying the same thing.
    , @Rosie

    Don’t judge Schopenhauer by a single excerpt from a single essay. As a philosopher, he’s in the same league as Hegel, and as a writer, he’s in the same league as Nietzsche.
     
    It's not the single excerpt in the single essay. It's more than that. I don't know if you read the comment thread on Steve's post about mindfulness, but my critique of Buddhism is developed there in dribs and drabs, and I'm not going to repeat it here. Much of it applies also to Schopenhauer.

    https://www.thebuddhistsociety.org/page/schopenhauers-encounter-with-buddhist-thought

    It's been many years, but as I recall, he had little to offer other than warmed-over Buddhism.
    , @guest
    I don't know if being in Hegel's league is enviable, except as regards influence.

    As for being in Nietzsche's league as a writer, no. Apart from the fact that he can be enjoy in bite-sized morsels, there's a reason Nietzsche is one of the most-read philosophers. There's also a reason very few people ever read Schopenhauer.

    Personally, I enjoyed read (parts of) World as Will and Understanding. But that wasn't for the prose. Which was an absolute slog.
    , @Bardon Kaldian
    No, he's definitely inferior. Of course, he's great stylist, far superior to Hegel who is unreadable, schematic & frequently absurdly obscurantist.

    But Hegel is, overall, still a great & seminal thinker, while Schopenhauer is aestheticized & vulgarized Buddhism, his "understanding" of the Upanishads being abominable. As an aesthete, political thinker, "psychologist", knower of human nature.... Schopenhauer is absolutely overrated, especially compared with classics of eastern metaphysics (India, China).

    Nietzsche is an apocalyptic aesthete & contrarian moralist who was a breath of fresh air in 1890-1930, but since then, he has not much to say to the modern man. Antiquated.
  118. That Vanessa wop is remarkably hot. No wonder an aging moralizing whore hates her so much. Madonna was never really that hot, it was all a very cosmetically synthetic look. But this chic displays real beauty.
    Lmfao.
    Stay mad madoga.
    Wall-K.O.ed roastie is mad the thot is far off the wall.

    • Replies: @Nicholas Stix
    Greek, not wop.
  119. @TheMediumIsTheMassage
    Guy Ritchie doesn't do music videos, he does tough guy crime films about the underbelly of London like Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels and Snatch. And he's quite attractive. Definitely an alpha. But probably not as alpha as Madonna, who is just an uber alpha human.

    Definitely an alpha. But probably not as alpha as Madonna, who is just an uber alpha human.

    You already said that you’re gay, and most of us are OK with that. Why so coy now?

  120. @Rosie

    Women nowadays have no appreciation for what men in the past—the “patriarchy”—have provided for them.
     
    There you go casting women as passive recipients of male beneficence, as if we weren't there the whole time, toiling and sacrificing for a better future. We do not accept your implicit claim that men's contributions are more important and valuable than ours.

    We do not accept your implicit claim that men’s contributions are more important and valuable than ours.

    Fine with me. Just don’t pretend you’re some sort of reality-based creature now. Or do you mean “in theory” as opposed to “in practice”? And do you mean in the future as opposed to in the past?

  121. @PSR
    Shoot, the first comment here preempted me. What the heck, I was going to say the chick who wrote this is hotter than Madonna ever was. That’s why old Madonna is pissed.

    Madonna is pissed because she spent five minutes with the chick and didn’t get any; she’s lost her magic powers.

  122. SFG says:
    @El Dato
    I thought Jews were the arch-Patriarchs?

    In biblical times, yes.

    The modern culture is quite female-dominated, and there are lots of internal jokes (or used to be before PC) about shrewish, dominating Jewish women.

    I did once get my mom to admit she didn’t find Jewish guys all that masculine, but didn’t push the obvious conclusion. She is my mom after all.

  123. @Dumbo

    "It seemed pretty laudatory to me".
     
    That's how it would seem to men, but not to women, see comment 11 for an explanation.

    I agree with the person who said sending a young woman to do the interview was a bad mistake.

    Men are usually much more neutral (about either men or women), than women when talking about other women (women can't stop competing).

    That's one of the reasons feminism never really seems to work, women hate or are jealous of each other constantly. In fact feminism itself is perhaps more about women competing with each other than about men.

    Ah, now I get it. Thank you.

  124. @Buzz Mohawk
    Here we go again.

    Sorry Rosie and Hark, the War Between the Sexes will never be won, yada yada, fraternizing yada yada.

    Not to hijack, but when a male stops and considers what it would be like to be a female of a species in which the males are mostly much bigger, physically a lot stronger, more aggressive, and horny as hell, he should not be surprised that females might see things differently. Imagine how they have to survive and get along surrounded by giant warrior-hunter types who mostly just want to screw them?

    It's downright scary, but somehow they do it. I wouldn't trade places with them if you gave me Bruce Jenner's fortune and his Ferrari, and his R/C helicopter collection.

    BTW there are lots of women who haven't forgotten what men have done and continue to do for them. It's mostly dopey, mostly young, American, impressionable types who buy into the opposite. And don't even listen when women try to tell you that their problems are your fault. Ignore them and find others.

    I’d do it for the extra 6 years of life, but only in some weird theoretical thought experiment where you’re reborn as a real one, not some surgically altered Jenner-style *thing*. Besides, being a dominatrix sounds like fun, and I could divorce guys and live off the alimony.

    Of course, my second thought was “of course, I would be a lesbian”.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    A famous episode of Star Trek ws where Kirk swaps consciousnes with a deranged woman scientist:


    The Federation starship Enterprise answers a distress call from the planet Camus II, the site of an archaeological expedition. Among the survivors are Dr. Janice Lester, with whom Captain Kirk was once intimately involved, and the expedition's physician, Dr. Arthur Coleman. Coleman claims that Lester is suffering from radiation exposure.

    Dr. Coleman, Science Officer Spock and Chief Medical Officer Dr. McCoy leave to tend to the other survivors, leaving Lester and Kirk alone. Kirk explores the room, and as he examines an alien machine, she activates it, paralyzing him. She then joins Kirk in the machine and activates it again. From each of their bodies a ghostly image emerges and then disappears into the other's body. The person appearing to be Kirk then declares that Janice Lester has taken the place of Captain Kirk, and begins to strangle the person appearing to be Lester.

    Spock and McCoy return before “Kirk” can finish the job, and he orders the landing party and the remaining survivors back to the Enterprise. Once there, he gives Dr. Coleman full authority for treatment of “Janice Lester”, over McCoy's protests.

    Alone, Coleman and “Kirk” discuss the situation. It is revealed that the two conspired to kill the expedition's personnel. Lester has now achieved her lifelong goal of commanding a starship.

    Spock becomes suspicious when “Kirk” orders a course change to the Benecia Colony to drop off “Lester” for medical attention, despite the fact that Benecia's medical facilities are comparatively primitive, and that it would unnecessarily interfere with their current mission. McCoy invokes his authority to order a medical examination of the captain, including a personality test.[2]

    “Lester” regains consciousness and seeks help from Spock and McCoy. “Kirk” slaps her back into unconsciousness, and orders her to be put in isolation. Spock interviews “Lester” and is somewhat skeptical of her story. “Lester” suggests that he use his telepathic abilities to learn the truth, and he is convinced.

    Spock tries to free “Lester” but is stopped by a security team led by the impostor Kirk, who accuses Spock of mutiny and orders a court-martial. Once on trial, Spock argues that Captain Kirk is really in the body of Dr. Lester. “Kirk” suggests that Spock's real goal is to take command himself and offers to drop charges if Spock will desist. Spock refuses, and “Kirk” flies into a hysterical rage.

    Shocked by Kirk's behavior, McCoy and Chief Engineer Scott confer secretly in the corridor. Scott believes that if Spock is acquitted, the "captain" won't let the decision stand, making it necessary to mutiny. “Kirk”, having monitored their conversation, declares McCoy, Scott, Spock, and “Lester” guilty of mutiny and condemned to death.

    On the bridge, Chekov and Sulu, having witnessed the trial, determine to resist the “captain”, and refuse to obey his orders. Loudly accusing them of mutiny, “Kirk” falls into his chair, and an image of Lester emerges from his body, only to return again. “Kirk” runs to Coleman, who tells him that the transfer is reversing itself, and that Kirk, in Lester's body, must die in order to prevent it. The two head to the brig intending to inject “Lester” with a toxic substance. “Lester” resists, and the reversal now completes itself. The hysterical Lester begs Coleman to kill Kirk. Coleman then pleads with Kirk to allow him to care for her. The Enterprise proceeds on its mission.
     
    Shatner later commented that such a thing would be disastrous in real life for him, because he would miss the clanging of his balls.
  125. @anon
    There has never been a Patriarchy.
    On the farm men worked in the barn and fields because they had the body strength needed for heavy labor. Women did the work around the home because they give birth and nurse the young, and it was therefore practicle for them to manage the home.
    If Grandpa was in the barn mending harnesses and Grandma was in the house mending clothes, that is not a Patriarchy. That is a Partnership and the division of labor was based on practical needs and in no way unfair. Both partners stayed endlessly busy.
    Post WWII prosperity and dramatic improvements in technology and mass distribution of technology made it possible for women to no longer work so hard at home. Our democracy made it possible for women to go to college. Women moved into the workplace in large numbers because of these practicle advances.
    Think of your own family history (I have just described the transition from my Grandmother, a farm wife, to my female cousins, all professional women).
    Did the fathers of my cousins forbid their daughters from going to college? No - they paid for it!
    Did male business owners refuse to hire my cousins? No - they all got jobs and succeeded.
    All this happened before Gloria Steinmen burned any bras and before Madonna declared war on men.
    Women have nothing to complain about. If they still have hard choices to make (to have a kid or have a career), and if life in the office is just as hard as life on the farm used to be, then tough cookies. Life is just hard - don't blame men.

    This is a great summary, but I’d add that after the 60s, women were now in control of reproduction and could better choose time and place of child rearing.

  126. Madonna is 60 with nearly 40 years in the entertainment business and still doesn’t realize that you should never trust a journalist.

  127. @vinteuil
    Don't judge Schopenhauer by a single excerpt from a single essay. As a philosopher, he's in the same league as Hegel, and as a writer, he's in the same league as Nietzsche.

    She’s not judging him, she’s being solipsistic, as women will. We could be discussing a Bill Burr video and she’s be saying the same thing.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    "Hang in the sunshine with a couple o' rugrats"

    Lol what a douchebag! I guess whipping up a bunch of lowbrow mediocrities into a triumphalist chest-thumping frenzy is good work if you can get it.

    https://youtu.be/4Xp4z5qlyqs

    Anyway, he's funny, and apparently aware of the fact that he is an asshole, which is more than I can say for you, Desiderius.
  128. @Hypnotoad666

    Im sorry i spent 5 minutes with her. It makes me feel raped.
     

    “It took me a while to recover, and put such a bad taste in my mouth I wasn’t really interested in making music.” She added, “I felt raped.”
     
    In the 80's she was "Like a Virgin." Now she feels constantly raped. Getting old really does suck if you're a female pop star.

    Yeah, but as Reservoir Dogs explained to us, ‘like’ a virgin is not the same as being a virgin.

  129. @stillCARealist
    How long was it from when lots of men started going to college that lots of women started going to college? I think it was pretty much at the same time: right after WWII.

    Also, women moved into factory work pretty soon after the men did.

    Madonna is crazy, but you already knew that. Someone crosses her and she's out to get revenge on the world. Was she really raped at 19?

    My husband knew her when she was 19. They were both taking dance classes in NYC at the same studio. He said she was the most commanding, demanding, loud, alpha wolf he'd ever seen in female form. At 19. Was that the result of the rape, or was she really the perpetrator and she's messed up her memory in self-defense?

    They were both taking dance classes in NYC at the same studio. He said she was the most commanding, demanding, loud, alpha wolf he’d ever seen in female form. At 19. Was that the result of the rape, or was she really the perpetrator and she’s messed up her memory in self-defense?

    Was there perhaps a gay latino dancer who one day had a breakdown and fled the class in tears, never to come back?

    • Replies: @stillCARealist
    Say what?

    I'll ask him. Were you there too? Or is that in a movie that I never saw?
  130. @Rosie

    I’d like to see some the spoiled bitches of our time deal with that.
     
    So I guess when the men around here say men built civilization, they're not telling the whole truth, are they?

    Men built civilization and women washed it.

  131. @Dumbo

    "It seemed pretty laudatory to me".
     
    That's how it would seem to men, but not to women, see comment 11 for an explanation.

    I agree with the person who said sending a young woman to do the interview was a bad mistake.

    Men are usually much more neutral (about either men or women), than women when talking about other women (women can't stop competing).

    That's one of the reasons feminism never really seems to work, women hate or are jealous of each other constantly. In fact feminism itself is perhaps more about women competing with each other than about men.

    That’s one of the reasons feminism never really seems to work, women hate or are jealous of each other constantly.

    Ask a woman if she has a female boss.

    • Replies: @TTSSYF
    I've had a female boss for over 20 years. She's brilliant and also one of the finest human beings I've ever known.
  132. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Most pornstars that escort don't charge 130k per night. (e.g. assuming that the top charge at most, 5k per hr, and a night is eight hours, ergo about 40k per night. And even that amount is quite high).

    The Donald did that cause he could.

    The high-priced hooker probably won’t do eight old dudes in a single night, though it could be the next concept for one of those ‘one weird night in New York’ movies.

  133. @Escher
    https://youtu.be/hoS1MCF8AeI

  134. @vinteuil
    Don't judge Schopenhauer by a single excerpt from a single essay. As a philosopher, he's in the same league as Hegel, and as a writer, he's in the same league as Nietzsche.

    Don’t judge Schopenhauer by a single excerpt from a single essay. As a philosopher, he’s in the same league as Hegel, and as a writer, he’s in the same league as Nietzsche.

    It’s not the single excerpt in the single essay. It’s more than that. I don’t know if you read the comment thread on Steve’s post about mindfulness, but my critique of Buddhism is developed there in dribs and drabs, and I’m not going to repeat it here. Much of it applies also to Schopenhauer.

    https://www.thebuddhistsociety.org/page/schopenhauers-encounter-with-buddhist-thought

    It’s been many years, but as I recall, he had little to offer other than warmed-over Buddhism.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    Here is a diagram of the essential Buddhist doctrine of dependent origination. Compare with Schopenhauer's views laid out in The World as Will and Representation.

    https://www.dhammasukha.org/uploads/1/2/8/6/12865490/4939325.png?594

    I do wonder if Schopenhauer was familiar with the Buddha's tenderness towards (and confidence in) women, though.

    http://christicenter.org/2012/11/buddhism-parable-mustard-seed/

  135. @Rosie

    You didn’t point out the lie, tho.
     
    Yes, I did. The lie is that women reach their fullest reasoning and mental faculties at 18. This is a self-justifying fairy tale men tell themselves to justify robbing the cradle. For awhile there at the height of the alt-right anti-woman hysteria, guys were claiming that girls were ready for marriage at 13.

    Preposterous, women are only ready to be married after 30, and then only for a few years.

  136. @Buzz Mohawk
    Here we go again.

    Sorry Rosie and Hark, the War Between the Sexes will never be won, yada yada, fraternizing yada yada.

    Not to hijack, but when a male stops and considers what it would be like to be a female of a species in which the males are mostly much bigger, physically a lot stronger, more aggressive, and horny as hell, he should not be surprised that females might see things differently. Imagine how they have to survive and get along surrounded by giant warrior-hunter types who mostly just want to screw them?

    It's downright scary, but somehow they do it. I wouldn't trade places with them if you gave me Bruce Jenner's fortune and his Ferrari, and his R/C helicopter collection.

    BTW there are lots of women who haven't forgotten what men have done and continue to do for them. It's mostly dopey, mostly young, American, impressionable types who buy into the opposite. And don't even listen when women try to tell you that their problems are your fault. Ignore them and find others.

    Imagine how they have to survive and get along surrounded by giant warrior-hunter types who mostly just want to screw them?

    As someone once noted regarding this, “do you ever dream of being in prison?”

    Then again, sooner or later, the giant warrior-hunter utters the fatal words, “yes dear”.

  137. @TheMediumIsTheMassage
    The biggest fans of any female pop star are always gay men (and straight women) so nothing out of the ordinary there. As far as attracting 'alpha men', you're wrong. Sean Penn, Warren Beatty and Guy Ritchie are all pretty much the definition of alpha men who could get any woman they want, and they all had long-term relationships with her.

    These aren’t Alphas, they’re celebrities. Didn’t someone say something about women will let celebrities snatch their snatch?

  138. If I had $590 million in the bank, I would not be complaining about much of anything.

  139. @Rosie

    Don’t judge Schopenhauer by a single excerpt from a single essay. As a philosopher, he’s in the same league as Hegel, and as a writer, he’s in the same league as Nietzsche.
     
    It's not the single excerpt in the single essay. It's more than that. I don't know if you read the comment thread on Steve's post about mindfulness, but my critique of Buddhism is developed there in dribs and drabs, and I'm not going to repeat it here. Much of it applies also to Schopenhauer.

    https://www.thebuddhistsociety.org/page/schopenhauers-encounter-with-buddhist-thought

    It's been many years, but as I recall, he had little to offer other than warmed-over Buddhism.

    Here is a diagram of the essential Buddhist doctrine of dependent origination. Compare with Schopenhauer’s views laid out in The World as Will and Representation.

    I do wonder if Schopenhauer was familiar with the Buddha’s tenderness towards (and confidence in) women, though.

    http://christicenter.org/2012/11/buddhism-parable-mustard-seed/

  140. @Desiderius
    She’s not judging him, she’s being solipsistic, as women will. We could be discussing a Bill Burr video and she’s be saying the same thing.

    “Hang in the sunshine with a couple o’ rugrats”

    Lol what a douchebag! I guess whipping up a bunch of lowbrow mediocrities into a triumphalist chest-thumping frenzy is good work if you can get it.

    Anyway, he’s funny, and apparently aware of the fact that he is an asshole, which is more than I can say for you, Desiderius.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    After watching as much of this video as I could stand, I got curious about roofing accidents.

    It occurs to me that anyone who would put a man on a roof to work in the July afternoon heat is a psychopath who has no regard for the value of human life.

    https://www.osha.gov/news/newsreleases/region7/11102016-0

    Apparently, OSHA valued this poor man's life at a mere 12,000 bucks. The "men's rights" (to work each other to death) is a joke.
  141. @Bubba
    Grigoriadis has a beautiful, natural set of bazongas.

    What was she writing about again?
  142. @simple_pseudonymic_handle
    1. The New York times is dead although it staggers on like a Zombie
    2. The article was very flattering to the old broad
    3. From the article:

    She told me she wasn’t yet over the release of her last album, “Rebel Heart,” in 2015, which sold less than her others. The songs had leaked online several months early, far from perfection. “There are no words to describe how devastated I was,” she said. “It took me a while to recover, and put such a bad taste in my mouth I wasn’t really interested in making music.” She added, “I felt raped.” It didn’t feel right to explain that women these days were trying not to use that word metaphorically.
     
    Poor Madonna. But the one good thing I learned is that Guy Ritchie took 75 mil in the divorce! Hear here for equality.

    She sure feels raped a lot.

    It didn’t feel right to explain that women these days were trying not to use that word metaphorically.

    That’s such a classically female passive-aggressive thing to do. “It didn’t feel right to explain … but instead I’ll point it out in the story for thousands of people to see.”

  143. @stillCARealist
    How long was it from when lots of men started going to college that lots of women started going to college? I think it was pretty much at the same time: right after WWII.

    Also, women moved into factory work pretty soon after the men did.

    Madonna is crazy, but you already knew that. Someone crosses her and she's out to get revenge on the world. Was she really raped at 19?

    My husband knew her when she was 19. They were both taking dance classes in NYC at the same studio. He said she was the most commanding, demanding, loud, alpha wolf he'd ever seen in female form. At 19. Was that the result of the rape, or was she really the perpetrator and she's messed up her memory in self-defense?

    She’s probably convinced herself the porno film she did at that age, where the character is raped in a bathroom, was actually real life.

  144. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    I would have to see these people. Only time Madonna came up among straight men with any amount of testosterone was as a punch line to a joke. Generally, her fan base was women, along with gays. Now if you want to compare her to Christie Brinkley, or even Cindy Crawford as to which woman that guys were definitely into at the time, think the results will be fairly obvious (not Madonna).

    Madonna = Sex Symbol for guys never caught on, and was only an idea among her PRs and handlers.

    LIKE a Virgin, as opposed to AS a sexy woman (Christie Brinkley). Just put the two women's headshots from their prime years (under 30) side by side, to better understand.

    I’m not saying I understand it. I’m just saying I heard it said. And that isn’t to say that her fan base wasn’t predominantly female or gay, or that she was ever as beautiful as Christie Brinkley or Cindy Crawford. I was merely making the point that some straight guys I knew in the 1980s thought she was attractive when she was about 27. Why is that such an utter impossibility? There’s no accounting for taste.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Because its utter BS, that's why. Its more likely that master marketer Madonna had one of her then current images for marketing purposes to be a sex symbol desired by men, when the truth of the matter is she was never considered physically attractive to straight men.

    All we have to do is compare her to the various Alist supermodels of her generation. Madonna vs Christie Brinkley, who is more physically attractive to straight males? See? It's not even arguable. Christie wins hands down. No one has to pause and think for a moment, "Gee, I dunno, that Christie isn't all that compared to Madge." Whatever.

    What did Christie Brinkley make her career on? Her LOOKS, and being appealing to straight males.

    What did Madonna make her career on? Supposedly something to do with singing, dancing, making albums, videos, etc. but looks dept. certainly wasn't among them.
  145. I saw the B-52’s a few years back. Kate Pierson and Cindy Wilson are both older than her.

    They’re still tearing it up on stage and are as creative as ever. They’ve never relied on a production crew like she always has had to write her stuff and give her her sound. They created their own. They’ve aged gracefully, and their voices are flawless as ever, unlike her thin range. I saw Cindy on the road last year in a club, just hanging out and talking to the crowd before she and her solo band started. She didn’t care that there were only 50 people there.

    That’s how it’s done, Madonna.

  146. @Buzz Mohawk
    Here we go again.

    Sorry Rosie and Hark, the War Between the Sexes will never be won, yada yada, fraternizing yada yada.

    Not to hijack, but when a male stops and considers what it would be like to be a female of a species in which the males are mostly much bigger, physically a lot stronger, more aggressive, and horny as hell, he should not be surprised that females might see things differently. Imagine how they have to survive and get along surrounded by giant warrior-hunter types who mostly just want to screw them?

    It's downright scary, but somehow they do it. I wouldn't trade places with them if you gave me Bruce Jenner's fortune and his Ferrari, and his R/C helicopter collection.

    BTW there are lots of women who haven't forgotten what men have done and continue to do for them. It's mostly dopey, mostly young, American, impressionable types who buy into the opposite. And don't even listen when women try to tell you that their problems are your fault. Ignore them and find others.

    “Not to hijack, but when a male stops and considers what it would be like to be a female of a species in which the males are mostly much bigger, physically a lot stronger, more aggressive, and horny as hell, he should not be surprised that females might see things differently. Imagine how they have to survive and get along surrounded by giant warrior-hunter types who mostly just want to screw them?

    I imagine it wasn’t nearly as scary for them as you suggest. Women by nature evolved to be attracted to these types of males. All they had the do to survive (within the context of this discussion) was provide sex when it was demanded. The psychological significance/baggage that is associated with intercourse is a very recent development in human history.

    We see it manifested to today as most powerful/successful/famous males have unlimited access to the wares of females; females who are not dependent upon the latter’s provisions for survival.

    Women (and men, for that matter) only started seeing things different when they no longer had to toil all day everyday to ensure their own survival. Ironically men and women now have large portions of their day available to sit and ponder how unbearably hard their lives are.

    • Agree: jim jones
  147. @TheMediumIsTheMassage
    She was once a phenomenal pop songwriter, she has the most Top 10 hits out of any act in the United States and she wrote most of the melody/lyrics herself. Being able to write that many songs that resonate with millions across several decades is ludicrously hard to do and takes real talent. I will defend old Madonna, but the current Madonna I cannot. Between nonsense like her reaction to this article and her "let's blow up the white house" speech she's become a parody of herself.

    She was once a phenomenal pop songwriter…

    I’m a song buff with extensive familiarity with Tin Pan Alley, Broadway, Hollywood, and ’60s rock-and-roll and R&B. Only two of Madonna’s hits stick in my mind– “Material Girl” and “La Isla Bonita”.

    https://www.songfacts.com/facts/madonna/material-girl

    This was written by the songwriters Peter Brown and Robert Rans.

    https://www.songfacts.com/facts/madonna/la-isla-bonita

    Songwriter and producer Patrick Leonard wrote this for Michael Jackson…

    Her other iconic hit:

    https://www.songfacts.com/facts/madonna/like-a-virgin

    The songwriting team of Tom Kelly and Billy Steinberg wrote this…

    As Bette Midler quipped, “The only thing that girl will do like a virgin is have a baby in a stable.”

    For what it’s worth, “Girls Just Want to Have Fun” was also composed by a guy. Cindy Lauper did alter the lyrics, though.

    https://www.songfacts.com/facts/cyndi-lauper/girls-just-want-to-have-fun

    I will be second to no one in my awe for her marketing talents. But musically, Madonna isn’t even the best act associated with Bay City, Michigan.

    • Replies: @JimB
    Madonna’s hit “Dress You Up” was written by two middle age house wives from Red Bank, NJ. I remember them from a local TV news bit in the 80’s sitting together in front of a spinet warbling the lyrics. I seem to recall that one of the women was a high school music teacher.
    , @Rosie

    But musically, Madonna isn’t even the best act associated with Bay City, Michigan.
     
    I'm inclined to agree. I have actually given this matter some thought. We thought mid-80s Madonna embodied sexy sophistication and easy, casual beauty. In DSS, she often appeared to be dressed in rags with hair that hadn't been combed in days, but she looked gorgeous to us, anyway. She anticipated the messy look by a couple decades.

    If you thought your girlfriend looked particularly smashing one night, you might tell her she "looked like Madonna," the highest compliment one young girl might pay to another in those silly, boy-crazy days. As I said, I've given the matter some thought, but can't account for it.

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/36/63/dc/3663dc86a4e6dea89e7a7bfa512e043f.jpg
    , @Ron Mexico
    "Live to Tell" from At Close Range is her best imo. Co-written with Patrick Leonard.
  148. @Neoconned
    She's wearing a pushup bra or something...m.heres a pic of her at a different angle:

    https://media.guestofaguest.com/t_card_medium/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Vanessa_Grigoriadis1.jpg

    Not so um,.cough ample.....

    And she looks like Shrek.

  149. JimB says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    She was once a phenomenal pop songwriter...
     
    I'm a song buff with extensive familiarity with Tin Pan Alley, Broadway, Hollywood, and '60s rock-and-roll and R&B. Only two of Madonna's hits stick in my mind-- "Material Girl" and "La Isla Bonita".

    https://www.songfacts.com/facts/madonna/material-girl

    This was written by the songwriters Peter Brown and Robert Rans.

    https://www.songfacts.com/facts/madonna/la-isla-bonita

    Songwriter and producer Patrick Leonard wrote this for Michael Jackson...

    Her other iconic hit:

    https://www.songfacts.com/facts/madonna/like-a-virgin

    The songwriting team of Tom Kelly and Billy Steinberg wrote this...

    As Bette Midler quipped, "The only thing that girl will do like a virgin is have a baby in a stable."


    For what it's worth, "Girls Just Want to Have Fun" was also composed by a guy. Cindy Lauper did alter the lyrics, though.

    https://www.songfacts.com/facts/cyndi-lauper/girls-just-want-to-have-fun

    I will be second to no one in my awe for her marketing talents. But musically, Madonna isn't even the best act associated with Bay City, Michigan.


    http://www.laut.de/Bay-City-Rollers/bay-city-rollers-164395.jpg

    Madonna’s hit “Dress You Up” was written by two middle age house wives from Red Bank, NJ. I remember them from a local TV news bit in the 80’s sitting together in front of a spinet warbling the lyrics. I seem to recall that one of the women was a high school music teacher.

  150. @Reg Cæsar

    She was once a phenomenal pop songwriter...
     
    I'm a song buff with extensive familiarity with Tin Pan Alley, Broadway, Hollywood, and '60s rock-and-roll and R&B. Only two of Madonna's hits stick in my mind-- "Material Girl" and "La Isla Bonita".

    https://www.songfacts.com/facts/madonna/material-girl

    This was written by the songwriters Peter Brown and Robert Rans.

    https://www.songfacts.com/facts/madonna/la-isla-bonita

    Songwriter and producer Patrick Leonard wrote this for Michael Jackson...

    Her other iconic hit:

    https://www.songfacts.com/facts/madonna/like-a-virgin

    The songwriting team of Tom Kelly and Billy Steinberg wrote this...

    As Bette Midler quipped, "The only thing that girl will do like a virgin is have a baby in a stable."


    For what it's worth, "Girls Just Want to Have Fun" was also composed by a guy. Cindy Lauper did alter the lyrics, though.

    https://www.songfacts.com/facts/cyndi-lauper/girls-just-want-to-have-fun

    I will be second to no one in my awe for her marketing talents. But musically, Madonna isn't even the best act associated with Bay City, Michigan.


    http://www.laut.de/Bay-City-Rollers/bay-city-rollers-164395.jpg

    But musically, Madonna isn’t even the best act associated with Bay City, Michigan.

    I’m inclined to agree. I have actually given this matter some thought. We thought mid-80s Madonna embodied sexy sophistication and easy, casual beauty. In DSS, she often appeared to be dressed in rags with hair that hadn’t been combed in days, but she looked gorgeous to us, anyway. She anticipated the messy look by a couple decades.

    If you thought your girlfriend looked particularly smashing one night, you might tell her she “looked like Madonna,” the highest compliment one young girl might pay to another in those silly, boy-crazy days. As I said, I’ve given the matter some thought, but can’t account for it.

    • Replies: @guest
    That wasn't an anticipatory look. That was just a mainstream version of the punk look.

    Madonna was very much of her time when she first hit. Later, she went full Elton John and put on any crazy thing she wanted. Or went backwards and dressed like a movie star from the Golden Age of Hollywood.
    , @Alice in Wonderland
    This is a great shot of Madonna.

    The glasses are consciously slid down her big nose to make it look small and girly. Also the angle is just right to avoid her unattractive nostrils.

    Really great portraiture.

    The subject, well, she is kind of nasty.
    , @Anonymous
    Rolling Stones, Bay City Rollers, what's the diff??
  151. @TheMediumIsTheMassage
    Guy Ritchie doesn't do music videos, he does tough guy crime films about the underbelly of London like Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels and Snatch. And he's quite attractive. Definitely an alpha. But probably not as alpha as Madonna, who is just an uber alpha human.

    You might want to update your references there Gramps, Ritchie made those movies 20 years ago — not that he has made that much worth paying attention to since then. Madonna did “inspire” him to make some truly awful movies though!

  152. Bugg says:

    OT-Times notices alt right media exposure causes West Virginia community college dropout angst, and on such basis all such media is BAD

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/06/08/technology/youtube-radical.html

    Would note the article barely discusses anything substantive. In fact the only substantive point made is by Stephan Molenyeux that the MSM refuses to discuss these ideas except to damn them without ever engaging them. Despite a huge collage of photos of right figures, there isn’t much about any of them in the text.

    Gavin McInnes could be the most engaging and funny guy on earth, but every photo is of him scowling. And that’s true of everyone so pictured.

    No discussion of the Damore lawsuit. The 1st Amendment is not mentioned.

    People are beginning to notice we have evolved into 2 separate and distinct world views about what America is all about. This week Colin Quinn dropped a show called “Red State, Blue State”It debuted on a noted right wing hate site, CNN, and was produced by noted anti-Semite Jerry Seinfeld. While it’s a ostensibly a comedy show, Quinn’s point is we need to figure out a way to divorce peacefully. Also, for laughs, we’ll have to figure out how to trade islands of blue in red states for islands of red in blue states-Austin, Texas and Charleston SC for Staten Island .

  153. @Bubba
    Grigoriadis has a beautiful, natural set of bazongas.

    What was she writing about again?

    Yes…the patriarchy does have nice titties.

    • Replies: @Bubba
    Nice observation! I totally agree with you.
  154. God she’s stupid.

  155. @Cortes
    Funny from an old broad whose whole notoriety derived from piggybacking on the name of an older broad.

    And can’t sing.

    Looked awful in her prime.

    I have to agree. In the 80’s I always thought of her as a cheesy-music slut. I couldn’t figure out why she was so popular. Her songs weren’t good enough to buy, and yet they were always on the radio. She wasn’t pretty, but had that disgusting boy-toy persona that made me put her in the same category as Boy George or Michael Jackson. Gross, just gross.

  156. @J1234

    Im sorry i spent 5 minutes with her. It makes me feel raped.
     
    That's an odd parallel.

    And yes I’m allowed to use that analogy having been raped at the age of 19
     
    Oh, okay...now I understand why she made that parallel. The mean spirited millionaire needed to be a victim. (Like many other status enhancing incidents of abuse and victimization, I'm wondering when it will become socially acceptable for the rest of us to list "been raped" as a qualification on a job application or a resume. I'm guessing the year 2024.)

    How dare the media not build up the image of dysfunctional celebrities, says Madonna. It's become a perennial truth: the aging rock stars of today are just as pathetic as those of 40 years ago.

    https://www.newmedicalterms.com/media-medicine-2/real-people-2/fat-elvis-syndrome/


    https://www.newmedicalterms.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/fat-Elvis-syndrome-e1477407378783.jpg

    The mean spirited millionaire needed to be a victim.

    Try near-billionaire. Madonna’s net worth is about $700 Million.

  157. “OMG someone wrote an article about me that was IMPARTIAL, rather than just a bullet list of my many great qualities, written by me. The whole world is evil. Tear it down. Burn it down. I’m super amazing and everyone on Earth is obligated to acknowledge that 5 times per day. And any commentary on my lack of coping skills is punishable by death. Don’t you know I am raped three to four times a day? Like when my latte is too hot. Or when I hear unapproved words.”

    If this is you at age 60, please have the dignity to kill yourself.

  158. @Rosie
    "Hang in the sunshine with a couple o' rugrats"

    Lol what a douchebag! I guess whipping up a bunch of lowbrow mediocrities into a triumphalist chest-thumping frenzy is good work if you can get it.

    https://youtu.be/4Xp4z5qlyqs

    Anyway, he's funny, and apparently aware of the fact that he is an asshole, which is more than I can say for you, Desiderius.

    After watching as much of this video as I could stand, I got curious about roofing accidents.

    It occurs to me that anyone who would put a man on a roof to work in the July afternoon heat is a psychopath who has no regard for the value of human life.

    https://www.osha.gov/news/newsreleases/region7/11102016-0

    Apparently, OSHA valued this poor man’s life at a mere 12,000 bucks. The “men’s rights” (to work each other to death) is a joke.

    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
    I used to work for ABC Supply, who's primary operating model is roofing sales and delivery.

    Ironically, its founder Ken Hendricks, fell off his roof to his death about 10-15 years ago.

    Roofers have it tough, but so do concrete masons. Try forming and finishing hand curb when it's 90 degrees.
    , @the one they call Desanex
    That guy was a vaginal discharge of gleet;
    If you can’t stand the kitchen, get out of the heat
    .

    Pardon my vulgarity, but, as an Alabama working man, fagg ots who can’t stand heat are a pet peeve of mine.
    , @Autochthon
    I agree with your position, but note that the $12,000.00 fine is not meant to be the value of the man's life. To the extent we may speak of a monetary value for the man's life, that is best addressed – and doubtless will be – by a civil suit by his survivors against his former employer. It will almost certainly result in a verdict for several millions of dollars – still cold comfort, but any amount of money would be.

    We see this phenomenon in many contexts: the statutory fine for, say, running a red light or speeding is hardly meant to, and does not, account for the value of lives which can be and are taken by those actions; any lives lost (or cars destroyed, limbs broken, etc.) by the offender are dealt with separately by civil suits. The fine, to be manageable, is calculated to deter the bad behaviour, but to be just it must also not presume the worst possible outcome of that bad behaviour as the thing to be deterred.

    Jurisprudence (like history, poetry, and – speaking of Madonna Ciccione! – music) is a legitimate discipline notwithstanding its recent bastardisation. These are the kinds of matters it properly considered before the law was hijacked to be about no more than murdering babies, disenfranchising Europeans, and so on.
  159. Her entire career and fortune is based on goofy ideas of sex appeal…Of course she is cranky about her physical ugliness/age.

    DEATH TO THE PATRIARCHY
    translation:
    “Why don’t men want to have sex with me! They don’t even look at me anymore! I hate them!”

    It must suck being her. The money helps a little.

  160. I do agree that Madonna is far too old to continue playing a ‘sex kitten’ at concerts or otherwise but I also think that there could be something in what she said about women ‘hating’ on each other…

    I worked in academia in a supporting role and I noticed time and again how vicious women were to one another. The really excellent professional women were treated the worse by the other woman on staff and it eventually crossed over into the female adminstrative staff as well to the point that they could not even get a phone call answered.

    This crossed over all racial barriers by the way…

    I thought of this recently when I heard a woman on TV talking about how getting women into highest levels of business and government would open so many doors for other woman and I thought to myself: Lady are you gonna be surprised by the blowback when that happens.

    BTW, this is also true on juries. Men in juries are far more sympathetic to women defendants than other woman are and woman judges are particularly vicious to other women in custody hearings. It’s the old male patriarchs of the system who give women all the breaks…

    Just thought I would point this out.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    'I worked in academia in a supporting role and I noticed time and again how vicious women were to one another...'

    This isn't the first time I've heard this. There's a lot to be said on the topic, but for now, let's just note that the model of patriarchal oppression is...inadequate.
  161. Madonna in her prime personified the difference between ‘sexy’ and ‘attractive’.
    Then, she was inspired. Now, she’s sad and tired.

  162. @Rosie
    After watching as much of this video as I could stand, I got curious about roofing accidents.

    It occurs to me that anyone who would put a man on a roof to work in the July afternoon heat is a psychopath who has no regard for the value of human life.

    https://www.osha.gov/news/newsreleases/region7/11102016-0

    Apparently, OSHA valued this poor man's life at a mere 12,000 bucks. The "men's rights" (to work each other to death) is a joke.

    I used to work for ABC Supply, who’s primary operating model is roofing sales and delivery.

    Ironically, its founder Ken Hendricks, fell off his roof to his death about 10-15 years ago.

    Roofers have it tough, but so do concrete masons. Try forming and finishing hand curb when it’s 90 degrees.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    Roofers have it tough, but so do concrete masons. Try forming and finishing hand curb when it’s 90 degrees.
     
    Given that there are plenty of days where the temperature does not reach 90 degrees, I see no adequate moral justification for risking human life in this fashion.
  163. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    The word there is "reported', as in, "cannot be confirmed nor denied". Again, do you believe everything you read/hear from the MSM, especially the entertainment conglomerate? If anything, its more likely that Madonna's PR put that out at the time in order to heighten her Q factor in the sex appeal quotient. Look at the people she's married/used as sperm donors. Not Alpha in either looks department or in high testosterone in general. A few years ago she literally had to purchase a Brazilian(?) (South American nation) male model about 25 yrs her junior. She spent tons hiring tutors to teach him English. He later cheated on her with a woman around his own age, so there went that.

    For some reason, something strongly suggests that Madge isn't taking the part about aging gracefully very well.

    You don’t have to believe them, but there’s plenty of accounts of their affair, including that JFK Jr introduced Madonna to Jackie, who was unimpressed.

    BTW, Warren Beatty also had an affair with Madonna. He was with her when she made that movie about her Blond Ambition tour. Do you doubt that?

  164. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Most pornstars that escort don't charge 130k per night. (e.g. assuming that the top charge at most, 5k per hr, and a night is eight hours, ergo about 40k per night. And even that amount is quite high).

    The Donald did that cause he could.

    The going rate for Gulf Arabs paying Instagram “models” for a weekend of degradation appears to be about $25 to 30k.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Is that it? For 2019 if that's the going rate, it sounds kinda cheap, like doable. Any MLB/NFL/NBA starting player could pay for that out of petty cash files. Maybe they already do. Dang!
  165. @Rosie
    After watching as much of this video as I could stand, I got curious about roofing accidents.

    It occurs to me that anyone who would put a man on a roof to work in the July afternoon heat is a psychopath who has no regard for the value of human life.

    https://www.osha.gov/news/newsreleases/region7/11102016-0

    Apparently, OSHA valued this poor man's life at a mere 12,000 bucks. The "men's rights" (to work each other to death) is a joke.

    That guy was a vaginal discharge of gleet;
    If you can’t stand the kitchen, get out of the heat
    .

    Pardon my vulgarity, but, as an Alabama working man, fagg ots who can’t stand heat are a pet peeve of mine.

  166. @Rosie

    Women nowadays have no appreciation for what men in the past—the “patriarchy”—have provided for them.
     
    There you go casting women as passive recipients of male beneficence, as if we weren't there the whole time, toiling and sacrificing for a better future. We do not accept your implicit claim that men's contributions are more important and valuable than ours.

    Well then…

    List what you consider to be women’s top 10 contributions to civilization.

    I, or someone else, will then list what we consider to be men’s top 10 contributions toward civilization.

    And then we can compare lists.

    How’s that?

    • Replies: @Rosie

    And then we can compare lists.
     
    Men generally advance civilization; women sustain and perpetuate it.

    As I have explained elsewhere, civilization requires a large cranium coupled with bipedal locomotion. This creates an "obstetric dilemma" that necessitates a comparatively short gestational period. In fact, human infants are so helpless, they can't even cough properly, and can easily choke on any random objects sitting around. The fact is that an extraordinarily high level of maternal vigilance is absolutely necessary for human civilization, as you well know. The fact that you wish to devalue women's contributions to same reflects very poorly indeed on you as a human being.

    https://www.health.ny.gov/prevention/injury_prevention/choking_prevention_for_children.htm

  167. @Harry Baldwin
    John F. Kennedy Jr was reported to have had a fling with Madonna. He was pretty alpha, wasn't he, nailing Brooke Shields, Julia Roberts, Darryl Hannah and others in their prime? I recall that after the news of the affair broke, Jay Leno commented, "Let's face it, it was inevitable, considering the odds."

    Julia Roberts wasn’t pretty either, regardless of what one of her films was titled. You can’t be too attractive if you’re going to be America’s Sweetheart (see also: Jennifer Aniston, Jennifer Lawrence). Other women have to be able to imagine you as being in their circle of friends without feeling overly threatened by you.

    • Disagree: TTSSYF
  168. @Rosie

    You didn’t point out the lie, tho.
     
    Yes, I did. The lie is that women reach their fullest reasoning and mental faculties at 18. This is a self-justifying fairy tale men tell themselves to justify robbing the cradle. For awhile there at the height of the alt-right anti-woman hysteria, guys were claiming that girls were ready for marriage at 13.

    “The lie is that women reach their fullest reasoning and mental faculties at 18.”

    People who cannot solve novel problems by age 15 never can. So, by measured performance, the human brain reaches mature reasoning ability by 15. Obviously people learn lots after age 15, both those capable of solving novel problems and those who can’t. However, the formal operational stage is reached by age 15 or it is never reached. Likely women are mentally mature before men because they are physically mature before men.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    So, by measured performance, the human brain reaches mature reasoning ability by 15.
     
    From what I understand, that is true, but judgment and self-regulation go on developing far beyond that age, even into the thirties.
  169. @Rosie

    Women nowadays have no appreciation for what men in the past—the “patriarchy”—have provided for them.
     
    There you go casting women as passive recipients of male beneficence, as if we weren't there the whole time, toiling and sacrificing for a better future. We do not accept your implicit claim that men's contributions are more important and valuable than ours.

    There you go casting women as passive recipients of male beneficence, as if we weren’t there the whole time, toiling and sacrificing for a better future. We do not accept your implicit claim that men’s contributions are more important and valuable than ours.

    Toiling and sacrificing in no way precludes being a passive recipient of male beneficence.

    Men created the stuff that made life better for everyone.

    FWIW horses toiled plenty, too. But they did not establish good governance nor create the innovations that so eased the burdens of daily life. Men did.

    As a woman, I can definitely say men’s contributions are far far more important and valuable than women’s and horses’ for that matter.

    • Agree: Kylie
    • Replies: @Rosie

    But they did not establish good governance nor create the innovations that so eased the burdens of daily life. Men did.
     
    Does it matter at all that we've been busy giving birth, nurturing babies, and then giving birth again into death for millennia? In order to improve life, you have to have life to begin with.

    Frankly, it is this obnoxious devaluation of women's work that make women resent it, and understandably so.
    , @Rosie

    Toiling and sacrificing in no way precludes being a passive recipient of male beneficence.
     
    This is patently absurd. You cannot toil and be passive at the same time.

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/toil
    , @Desiderius
    It’s a silly argument.

    Men and women created civilization together. Team effort all the way. A house divided against itself cannot stand.
  170. @ricpic
    An album that tanks is rape?!

    No, I think that “rape” comment was her distress about the NYT interview which mentioned her age and distress about the article being factual about her declining popularity. She was actually comparing being interviewed by this much younger female NYT writer to Madge’s own virtue-victim signalling claim of being raped at age 19. No way to tell if that happened other than her own unverified account.

    So an interview some self important former celebrity singer didn’t like, is the “same as rape?” Whoa!

    I always thought that it was far far worse than that. Could even kill you. But an interview with some idiot NYT staffer which didn’t have the correct amount of flattery? So who’s shilling for the evil Patriarchy now, Madge? If rape is akin to a mere bruised ego, what’s all this fuss about?

    Really, is she senile now?

    Can you imagine the kerfuffle if some 60 YO aging male actor compared a less than glowing interview with him to being raped? That would mean immediate MSM exile to Harvey Weinstein land.

  171. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Most pornstars that escort don't charge 130k per night. (e.g. assuming that the top charge at most, 5k per hr, and a night is eight hours, ergo about 40k per night. And even that amount is quite high).

    The Donald did that cause he could.

    The rich are taken advantage of in that fashion. But it’s like me picking up a candy bar at a gas station knowing I could get it for thirty cents or whatever cheaper if I went to the grocery store. Okay, I overpaid. But I don’t really care.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    No, they're not being taken advantage of. They just wanna make real sure that they get exactly what they pay for, period. If they want a particular individual pornstar/escort/THOT/etc, then by golly, they are gonna get that individual no matter what.

    Still not sure why the Donald was fixated with Stormy in particular. It's not like she was the only pornstar out there on the market at the time. He could just as easily have gotten with a dozen similar ones in the looks department. Jenna Jameson, for instance, who was even bigger in popularity at the time. Also, it does make you wonder how many other pornstars he hooked up with and why they never bothered to write their memoirs so they could also cash in.

  172. @Rosie

    But musically, Madonna isn’t even the best act associated with Bay City, Michigan.
     
    I'm inclined to agree. I have actually given this matter some thought. We thought mid-80s Madonna embodied sexy sophistication and easy, casual beauty. In DSS, she often appeared to be dressed in rags with hair that hadn't been combed in days, but she looked gorgeous to us, anyway. She anticipated the messy look by a couple decades.

    If you thought your girlfriend looked particularly smashing one night, you might tell her she "looked like Madonna," the highest compliment one young girl might pay to another in those silly, boy-crazy days. As I said, I've given the matter some thought, but can't account for it.

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/36/63/dc/3663dc86a4e6dea89e7a7bfa512e043f.jpg

    That wasn’t an anticipatory look. That was just a mainstream version of the punk look.

    Madonna was very much of her time when she first hit. Later, she went full Elton John and put on any crazy thing she wanted. Or went backwards and dressed like a movie star from the Golden Age of Hollywood.

  173. @Harry Baldwin
    John F. Kennedy Jr was reported to have had a fling with Madonna. He was pretty alpha, wasn't he, nailing Brooke Shields, Julia Roberts, Darryl Hannah and others in their prime? I recall that after the news of the affair broke, Jay Leno commented, "Let's face it, it was inevitable, considering the odds."

    Yet JFK Jr. married a controlling blonde bimbo who was known to be lusting after a male underwear model. A real shrew by most accounts.

    Then, while drifting away from his heavily subsidized political magazine, he goes kerplunk because being famous for being born, rich and for some reason a celebrity, didn’t make him a good pilot.

    Gravity is a bitch. No matter who you think you are. Or who you used to sleep with (briefly).

    Rich young men who inherit everything are not necessarily Alpha males. The jury is still out on Trump, actually.

  174. @Rosie

    But musically, Madonna isn’t even the best act associated with Bay City, Michigan.
     
    I'm inclined to agree. I have actually given this matter some thought. We thought mid-80s Madonna embodied sexy sophistication and easy, casual beauty. In DSS, she often appeared to be dressed in rags with hair that hadn't been combed in days, but she looked gorgeous to us, anyway. She anticipated the messy look by a couple decades.

    If you thought your girlfriend looked particularly smashing one night, you might tell her she "looked like Madonna," the highest compliment one young girl might pay to another in those silly, boy-crazy days. As I said, I've given the matter some thought, but can't account for it.

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/36/63/dc/3663dc86a4e6dea89e7a7bfa512e043f.jpg

    This is a great shot of Madonna.

    The glasses are consciously slid down her big nose to make it look small and girly. Also the angle is just right to avoid her unattractive nostrils.

    Really great portraiture.

    The subject, well, she is kind of nasty.

  175. @vinteuil
    Don't judge Schopenhauer by a single excerpt from a single essay. As a philosopher, he's in the same league as Hegel, and as a writer, he's in the same league as Nietzsche.

    I don’t know if being in Hegel’s league is enviable, except as regards influence.

    As for being in Nietzsche’s league as a writer, no. Apart from the fact that he can be enjoy in bite-sized morsels, there’s a reason Nietzsche is one of the most-read philosophers. There’s also a reason very few people ever read Schopenhauer.

    Personally, I enjoyed read (parts of) World as Will and Understanding. But that wasn’t for the prose. Which was an absolute slog.

    • Replies: @vinteuil

    I don’t know if being in Hegel’s league is enviable...
     
    On that point, Schopenhauer himself would probably agree - he hated & resented Hegel, even more than he hated & resented his mother.

    As for being in Nietzsche’s league as a writer, no.
     
    Well, I guess it's a matter of taste. Nietzsche, as an aphorist, is pretty much un-surpassable; still, he can be awfully turgid (The Birth of Tragedy, Untimely Essays) and just generally cringey (Zarathustra). Schopenhauer writes clearly & forcefully, without drawing attention away from the topic to hand and toward his own cleverness. I kind of like that.
  176. Can anyone explain to me why I needed to know about 19 year-old Madonna’s victimhood? Aside from her exhibitionism?

  177. @ricpic
    Older people in general hate younger people. Many won't admit it, but it's there. I'm a 77 year old man and a general dislike of the stupid young (I too was once young and stupid) has grown in me. Proud of it? Ashamed? Neither. It's just another component of growing old.

    “Older people in general hate younger people.”
    I believe “hate” is far too strong a word. Envy perhaps. I am 91 and I find that I take the measure of the many young people I meet by their interactions with each other and yes old people like myself. If they have the manners of a pig I have complete disdain for them. But if they show class and act like they seem happy being a productive member of society I admire them no end. At least in the circles in which I find myself the latter are in the majority.

    • Replies: @Sean
    Stars at their peak can impose caveats on what will be talked about with journalists in return for interviews, but it is the nature of life that decades on they have less control and need publicity.

    Validate others' own sense of themselves and they like you. But if you are a huge muscular man then you cannot help but make other men feel more disconcerted than they would when interacting with a 6 stone weakling. Vanessa Grigoriadis can't help being youthful, glamorous, a working journalist and loving it. I expect the title of the piece and other references to Madonna's age were in large part due to Ms Grigoriadis's desperate editor. Economically Healthy 'Daily Planet' Now Most Unrealistic Part Of Superman Universe
  178. @simple_pseudonymic_handle
    1. The New York times is dead although it staggers on like a Zombie
    2. The article was very flattering to the old broad
    3. From the article:

    She told me she wasn’t yet over the release of her last album, “Rebel Heart,” in 2015, which sold less than her others. The songs had leaked online several months early, far from perfection. “There are no words to describe how devastated I was,” she said. “It took me a while to recover, and put such a bad taste in my mouth I wasn’t really interested in making music.” She added, “I felt raped.” It didn’t feel right to explain that women these days were trying not to use that word metaphorically.
     
    Poor Madonna. But the one good thing I learned is that Guy Ritchie took 75 mil in the divorce! Hear here for equality.

    Still, you have to wonder if Ritchie reckons the $75,000,000.00 makes up for the other things he doubtless took from the marriage: human papilloma virus and herpes….

  179. Sean says:

    I have read a lot of times about someone (not all celebrities, that general under Obama) who let a journalist hang around with them or watch them work, and then got eviscerated by the story. Getting access to everyday life is like reporters equivalent of the Reid technique for police breaking down suspects in interviews. Their job is to help you … say something you will profoundly regret.

    • Replies: @Known Fact
    So true. And interview subjects are often advised not to invite the reporter into their home or office even for a brief period, but to meet instead at a neutral site
  180. Didn’t you just do a post where you referred to “clickbait junk”? — “asking for a friend”.

    Vanessa Grigoriadis

    Another woman in the “workforce” — behold this admirable and useful bit of “work” she did.

  181. @Rosie
    After watching as much of this video as I could stand, I got curious about roofing accidents.

    It occurs to me that anyone who would put a man on a roof to work in the July afternoon heat is a psychopath who has no regard for the value of human life.

    https://www.osha.gov/news/newsreleases/region7/11102016-0

    Apparently, OSHA valued this poor man's life at a mere 12,000 bucks. The "men's rights" (to work each other to death) is a joke.

    I agree with your position, but note that the $12,000.00 fine is not meant to be the value of the man’s life. To the extent we may speak of a monetary value for the man’s life, that is best addressed – and doubtless will be – by a civil suit by his survivors against his former employer. It will almost certainly result in a verdict for several millions of dollars – still cold comfort, but any amount of money would be.

    We see this phenomenon in many contexts: the statutory fine for, say, running a red light or speeding is hardly meant to, and does not, account for the value of lives which can be and are taken by those actions; any lives lost (or cars destroyed, limbs broken, etc.) by the offender are dealt with separately by civil suits. The fine, to be manageable, is calculated to deter the bad behaviour, but to be just it must also not presume the worst possible outcome of that bad behaviour as the thing to be deterred.

    Jurisprudence (like history, poetry, and – speaking of Madonna Ciccione! – music) is a legitimate discipline notwithstanding its recent bastardisation. These are the kinds of matters it properly considered before the law was hijacked to be about no more than murdering babies, disenfranchising Europeans, and so on.

  182. @Father O'Hara
    I'll say it: The article,and I read about half,I'd say,was a bore. Madonna's history,her views,her triumphs blah blah blah she inspired girls,she inspired gays etc ad nauseum. One thing about her she loves Negroes!

    I’ll say it: The article,and I read about half,I’d say,was a bore.

    It’s the modern style. Most feature articles now are bullet points in prose.

    I tried just now to read a buzzfeed piece on China’s surveillance state. A good topic and the writer had been quite diligent. But it was like wading through mud. I managed about 10 paragraphs.

  183. @vinteuil
    Don't judge Schopenhauer by a single excerpt from a single essay. As a philosopher, he's in the same league as Hegel, and as a writer, he's in the same league as Nietzsche.

    No, he’s definitely inferior. Of course, he’s great stylist, far superior to Hegel who is unreadable, schematic & frequently absurdly obscurantist.

    But Hegel is, overall, still a great & seminal thinker, while Schopenhauer is aestheticized & vulgarized Buddhism, his “understanding” of the Upanishads being abominable. As an aesthete, political thinker, “psychologist”, knower of human nature…. Schopenhauer is absolutely overrated, especially compared with classics of eastern metaphysics (India, China).

    Nietzsche is an apocalyptic aesthete & contrarian moralist who was a breath of fresh air in 1890-1930, but since then, he has not much to say to the modern man. Antiquated.

  184. @Simply Simon
    "Older people in general hate younger people."
    I believe "hate" is far too strong a word. Envy perhaps. I am 91 and I find that I take the measure of the many young people I meet by their interactions with each other and yes old people like myself. If they have the manners of a pig I have complete disdain for them. But if they show class and act like they seem happy being a productive member of society I admire them no end. At least in the circles in which I find myself the latter are in the majority.

    Stars at their peak can impose caveats on what will be talked about with journalists in return for interviews, but it is the nature of life that decades on they have less control and need publicity.

    Validate others’ own sense of themselves and they like you. But if you are a huge muscular man then you cannot help but make other men feel more disconcerted than they would when interacting with a 6 stone weakling. Vanessa Grigoriadis can’t help being youthful, glamorous, a working journalist and loving it. I expect the title of the piece and other references to Madonna’s age were in large part due to Ms Grigoriadis’s desperate editor. Economically Healthy ‘Daily Planet’ Now Most Unrealistic Part Of Superman Universe

  185. @Reg Cæsar

    She was once a phenomenal pop songwriter...
     
    I'm a song buff with extensive familiarity with Tin Pan Alley, Broadway, Hollywood, and '60s rock-and-roll and R&B. Only two of Madonna's hits stick in my mind-- "Material Girl" and "La Isla Bonita".

    https://www.songfacts.com/facts/madonna/material-girl

    This was written by the songwriters Peter Brown and Robert Rans.

    https://www.songfacts.com/facts/madonna/la-isla-bonita

    Songwriter and producer Patrick Leonard wrote this for Michael Jackson...

    Her other iconic hit:

    https://www.songfacts.com/facts/madonna/like-a-virgin

    The songwriting team of Tom Kelly and Billy Steinberg wrote this...

    As Bette Midler quipped, "The only thing that girl will do like a virgin is have a baby in a stable."


    For what it's worth, "Girls Just Want to Have Fun" was also composed by a guy. Cindy Lauper did alter the lyrics, though.

    https://www.songfacts.com/facts/cyndi-lauper/girls-just-want-to-have-fun

    I will be second to no one in my awe for her marketing talents. But musically, Madonna isn't even the best act associated with Bay City, Michigan.


    http://www.laut.de/Bay-City-Rollers/bay-city-rollers-164395.jpg

    “Live to Tell” from At Close Range is her best imo. Co-written with Patrick Leonard.

  186. @TheMediumIsTheMassage
    The New York Times messed up by sending a woman, particularly a younger and attractive one (for real life, not Hollywood standards), to interview her. Fatal mistake. As she pointed out, Madonna was defensive and closed off from the get-go, and certainly did not want to get into a discussion about aging. What they should've done is send a man, all the best Madonna interviews have been with men (straight and gay), from her interviews with The Advocate to Howard Stern and MTV's Kurt Loder. I've watched countless of her interviews and she's clearly always been more comfortable talking to men in that kind of setting and sharing intimate details than with women reporters.With a good male reporter she's flirty, relaxed, and forthcoming. Howard Stern had such good rapport with her that he somehow managed to get her to talk about how she had been raped when she first arrived in New York, something that she had never spoken about before. Hapless Vanessa Griogriadis had no chance of getting a revelation like that for her story.

    The New York Times messed up by sending a woman, particularly a younger and attractive one (for real life, not Hollywood standards), to interview her. Fatal mistake.

    NYT writer Grigoriadis is 45 y/o, and “attractive” is questionable. Nonetheless, current media standards–for whatever they’re worth–require women to interview women. Assigning a man to the story ain’t gonna happen.

    It’s a feature article/personality profile for the NYT’s target audience. That Madonna went on social media to bitch about it is bonus publicity material.

    Today, media is all about clickbait. It’s entertainment, not information.

  187. @Neoconned
    She's wearing a pushup bra or something...m.heres a pic of her at a different angle:

    https://media.guestofaguest.com/t_card_medium/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Vanessa_Grigoriadis1.jpg

    Not so um,.cough ample.....

    Not really seeing the issue with Vanessa G.

    Her grin is a bit toothy, but it is genuine.

    Nice overall figure, defined waist, no visible signs of a gut. She has nice muscle tone in her arms, traps, and upper chest.

    Bust appears smaller than the photo posted at the top, but there are no obvious ill effects from gravity and time.

  188. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:

    Madonna was at the very start of her career considered a Debbie Harry imitator. Harry was a better singer, better looking, and would prove a far better actress, but Madonna was younger and had a lot more drive for commercial success. D has aged better than Madge, relatively speaking, but Madge is 15 years younger and was buff for most of her career, whereas Harry got fat there for a while.

    Madge has made, to a first order approximation, a billion dollars and so does not give a shit what anyone else thinks. She was the first to get away from the idea that she was in a rock band and put on what amounted to Las Vegas stage shows on the road. This has made a lot of money for her and half a dozen other female entertainers like Katy Perry, Taylor Swift, and others.

    Not a natural beauty, not a natural singer, but a phenomenal level of drive and a genius for pushing people’s buttons. I never bought a Madonna record in my life but I always had to recognize that her music was and is well produced, well thought out, and engineered finely for commercial success at the time of its release.

    BTW the Bay City Rollers are actually a Scots outfit that threw dart at a map of the US nd named themselves after where it landed, which happened to be Bay City, Michigan.

  189. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    But musically, Madonna isn’t even the best act associated with Bay City, Michigan.
     
    I'm inclined to agree. I have actually given this matter some thought. We thought mid-80s Madonna embodied sexy sophistication and easy, casual beauty. In DSS, she often appeared to be dressed in rags with hair that hadn't been combed in days, but she looked gorgeous to us, anyway. She anticipated the messy look by a couple decades.

    If you thought your girlfriend looked particularly smashing one night, you might tell her she "looked like Madonna," the highest compliment one young girl might pay to another in those silly, boy-crazy days. As I said, I've given the matter some thought, but can't account for it.

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/36/63/dc/3663dc86a4e6dea89e7a7bfa512e043f.jpg

    Rolling Stones, Bay City Rollers, what’s the diff??

  190. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @SFG
    I'd do it for the extra 6 years of life, but only in some weird theoretical thought experiment where you're reborn as a real one, not some surgically altered Jenner-style *thing*. Besides, being a dominatrix sounds like fun, and I could divorce guys and live off the alimony.

    Of course, my second thought was "of course, I would be a lesbian".

    A famous episode of Star Trek ws where Kirk swaps consciousnes with a deranged woman scientist:

    The Federation starship Enterprise answers a distress call from the planet Camus II, the site of an archaeological expedition. Among the survivors are Dr. Janice Lester, with whom Captain Kirk was once intimately involved, and the expedition’s physician, Dr. Arthur Coleman. Coleman claims that Lester is suffering from radiation exposure.

    Dr. Coleman, Science Officer Spock and Chief Medical Officer Dr. McCoy leave to tend to the other survivors, leaving Lester and Kirk alone. Kirk explores the room, and as he examines an alien machine, she activates it, paralyzing him. She then joins Kirk in the machine and activates it again. From each of their bodies a ghostly image emerges and then disappears into the other’s body. The person appearing to be Kirk then declares that Janice Lester has taken the place of Captain Kirk, and begins to strangle the person appearing to be Lester.

    Spock and McCoy return before “Kirk” can finish the job, and he orders the landing party and the remaining survivors back to the Enterprise. Once there, he gives Dr. Coleman full authority for treatment of “Janice Lester”, over McCoy’s protests.

    Alone, Coleman and “Kirk” discuss the situation. It is revealed that the two conspired to kill the expedition’s personnel. Lester has now achieved her lifelong goal of commanding a starship.

    Spock becomes suspicious when “Kirk” orders a course change to the Benecia Colony to drop off “Lester” for medical attention, despite the fact that Benecia’s medical facilities are comparatively primitive, and that it would unnecessarily interfere with their current mission. McCoy invokes his authority to order a medical examination of the captain, including a personality test.[2]

    “Lester” regains consciousness and seeks help from Spock and McCoy. “Kirk” slaps her back into unconsciousness, and orders her to be put in isolation. Spock interviews “Lester” and is somewhat skeptical of her story. “Lester” suggests that he use his telepathic abilities to learn the truth, and he is convinced.

    Spock tries to free “Lester” but is stopped by a security team led by the impostor Kirk, who accuses Spock of mutiny and orders a court-martial. Once on trial, Spock argues that Captain Kirk is really in the body of Dr. Lester. “Kirk” suggests that Spock’s real goal is to take command himself and offers to drop charges if Spock will desist. Spock refuses, and “Kirk” flies into a hysterical rage.

    Shocked by Kirk’s behavior, McCoy and Chief Engineer Scott confer secretly in the corridor. Scott believes that if Spock is acquitted, the “captain” won’t let the decision stand, making it necessary to mutiny. “Kirk”, having monitored their conversation, declares McCoy, Scott, Spock, and “Lester” guilty of mutiny and condemned to death.

    On the bridge, Chekov and Sulu, having witnessed the trial, determine to resist the “captain”, and refuse to obey his orders. Loudly accusing them of mutiny, “Kirk” falls into his chair, and an image of Lester emerges from his body, only to return again. “Kirk” runs to Coleman, who tells him that the transfer is reversing itself, and that Kirk, in Lester’s body, must die in order to prevent it. The two head to the brig intending to inject “Lester” with a toxic substance. “Lester” resists, and the reversal now completes itself. The hysterical Lester begs Coleman to kill Kirk. Coleman then pleads with Kirk to allow him to care for her. The Enterprise proceeds on its mission.

    Shatner later commented that such a thing would be disastrous in real life for him, because he would miss the clanging of his balls.

  191. @Reg Cæsar
    She's living in Britain because nobody at home has taken her seriously for decades. (Except Camille Paglia, who grew up on the same water as Rod Serling.)

    She's basically Jerry Lewis across the Channel.

    Agree. I feel sorry for Madonna because she is too narcissistic to see her stupid behavior with this maudlin rant.

    She fumes against the patriarchy (wtf?) when in essence, this journalist of the NYT, basically held up a mirror, and surmised that Madonna is old. 60 is old.

    Madonna should count her blessings. Only opera singers can stay relevant because they usually, don’t waste energy on politics and whining about their terrible luck with relationships. I mean, she has what,… been married to Sean and Guy…was there another? And, she has revealed her body and danced provocatively, on stage, for years…so, why “the patriarchy”suddenly offends her, is really silly, and disingenuous.

    And, I really don’t approve of serial adopting of children (rescue cats & dogs, horse, are easier) – because, seriously and ethically, those children of hers, should be her focus. It ceased to be about her once she made the decision to adopt 4 other children including having 2 of her own. Pathetic!

  192. @Buzz Mohawk
    Here we go again.

    Sorry Rosie and Hark, the War Between the Sexes will never be won, yada yada, fraternizing yada yada.

    Not to hijack, but when a male stops and considers what it would be like to be a female of a species in which the males are mostly much bigger, physically a lot stronger, more aggressive, and horny as hell, he should not be surprised that females might see things differently. Imagine how they have to survive and get along surrounded by giant warrior-hunter types who mostly just want to screw them?

    It's downright scary, but somehow they do it. I wouldn't trade places with them if you gave me Bruce Jenner's fortune and his Ferrari, and his R/C helicopter collection.

    BTW there are lots of women who haven't forgotten what men have done and continue to do for them. It's mostly dopey, mostly young, American, impressionable types who buy into the opposite. And don't even listen when women try to tell you that their problems are your fault. Ignore them and find others.

    there you go again: making me laugh when I haven’t wanted to for weeks! Isn’t it weird that we are all typing about the relevance of Madonna!?!!!

  193. @Bel Riose
    Well then...

    List what you consider to be women's top 10 contributions to civilization.

    I, or someone else, will then list what we consider to be men's top 10 contributions toward civilization.

    And then we can compare lists.

    How's that?

    And then we can compare lists.

    Men generally advance civilization; women sustain and perpetuate it.

    As I have explained elsewhere, civilization requires a large cranium coupled with bipedal locomotion. This creates an “obstetric dilemma” that necessitates a comparatively short gestational period. In fact, human infants are so helpless, they can’t even cough properly, and can easily choke on any random objects sitting around. The fact is that an extraordinarily high level of maternal vigilance is absolutely necessary for human civilization, as you well know. The fact that you wish to devalue women’s contributions to same reflects very poorly indeed on you as a human being.

    https://www.health.ny.gov/prevention/injury_prevention/choking_prevention_for_children.htm

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    'Men generally advance civilization; women sustain and perpetuate it.

    As I have explained elsewhere, civilization requires a large cranium coupled with bipedal locomotion. This creates an “obstetric dilemma” that necessitates a comparatively short gestational period. In fact, human infants are so helpless, they can’t even cough properly, and can easily choke on any random objects sitting around. The fact is that an extraordinarily high level of maternal vigilance is absolutely necessary for human civilization, as you well know. The fact that you wish to devalue women’s contributions to same reflects very poorly indeed on you as a human being.'

    You're making me wish I'd saved my 'agree' for you. Rosie. Keep pitching.

    , @Rosie
    Recommended reading:

    https://store.lamplighter.net/mobile/mothers-of-famous-men-p1410.aspx
    , @dfordoom

    Men generally advance civilization; women sustain and perpetuate it.
     
    Agreed. Or at least that's more or less the way it should work. Because men and women are profoundly different. They have radically different social functions, and naturally there are major differences in the ways they think and behave. The contributions of men and women to society are very different but equally important.

    That's why traditional sex roles make both men and women happier.
    , @Anonymous
    This is a fallacious argument. Human infants are helpless and require maternal care regardless of civilization. Hunter-gatherer babies can choke on random objects too. That's not what distinguishes civilization from other social forms.

    Also, humans have relatively long gestational periods compared to most animals.
  194. @Anon

    Grigoriadis has a beautiful, natural set of bazongas.
     
    This Grigoriadis?

    https://media.guestofaguest.com/t_gallery_slide/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Vanessa_Grigoriadis1.jpg

    She's of Greek extraction, but she seems so Jewish. She has a super buzzy vocal fry. Of Los Angeles she says she is surprised by "the frighteningly low velocity of idea exchange in casual conversation."

    Madonna may be right about how age is mentioned more for women. Is that discrimination or the patriarchy, or is that because women and men are different, and the way they react to aging is different. Women peak higher and earlier than men in sexual desirability, and aging is more traumatic for them when they get past thirty than it is for men. Especially when you are in a profession where you sell with sex appeal, you are going to be hit harder by contemplating your age.

    So it makes sense that Madonna's age is being emphasized. It's probably something she herself thinks about a lot and puts a lot of effort into hiding. Grigoriadis is 45, married in 2006, so there could be some projection on her part.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/24/fashion/weddings/24grigoriadis.html

    I can't find anything online about any children. And there's this:

    I.V.F. Coverage Is the Benefit Everyone Wants
    Fertility drugs and treatments are expensive, but employers have increasingly begun to cover their cost.
    By Vanessa Grigoriadis
    Jan. 30, 2019

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/30/style/ivf-coverage.html

    I wonder if this was assigned to her, or whether the freelance, many outlets Grigoriadis thought up the idea herself and pitched it to the Times? Why would the subject of "Gosh, IVF is so expensive!" pop into her head? Her husband is some sort of set designer, not a moneybags. In such a gay profession, maybe his fertility has dropped, along with hers?

    Come the revolution, freelance female journalists will have health plans that cover at least three rounds of IVF.

    Why are those NYT wedding stories always so barfworthy?

  195. @Alice in Wonderland
    "The lie is that women reach their fullest reasoning and mental faculties at 18."

    People who cannot solve novel problems by age 15 never can. So, by measured performance, the human brain reaches mature reasoning ability by 15. Obviously people learn lots after age 15, both those capable of solving novel problems and those who can't. However, the formal operational stage is reached by age 15 or it is never reached. Likely women are mentally mature before men because they are physically mature before men.

    So, by measured performance, the human brain reaches mature reasoning ability by 15.

    From what I understand, that is true, but judgment and self-regulation go on developing far beyond that age, even into the thirties.

  196. @simple_pseudonymic_handle
    1. The New York times is dead although it staggers on like a Zombie
    2. The article was very flattering to the old broad
    3. From the article:

    She told me she wasn’t yet over the release of her last album, “Rebel Heart,” in 2015, which sold less than her others. The songs had leaked online several months early, far from perfection. “There are no words to describe how devastated I was,” she said. “It took me a while to recover, and put such a bad taste in my mouth I wasn’t really interested in making music.” She added, “I felt raped.” It didn’t feel right to explain that women these days were trying not to use that word metaphorically.
     
    Poor Madonna. But the one good thing I learned is that Guy Ritchie took 75 mil in the divorce! Hear here for equality.

    ‘… She added, “I felt raped.” …’

    And she felt raped in the article. And presumably, she felt raped when she was raped. Madonna seems to feel raped a lot.

    • Replies: @simple_pseudonymic_handle
    Right. She says she felt raped in the article, which she presumably read, by getting her album pirated. Then in the instagram post she says she felt raped by the personality profile in the NY Times Sunday Magazine.

    It seems like Pavlovian level response and I would presume she feels raped by us pointing out that this comes across as dumb.
  197. @Rosie

    And then we can compare lists.
     
    Men generally advance civilization; women sustain and perpetuate it.

    As I have explained elsewhere, civilization requires a large cranium coupled with bipedal locomotion. This creates an "obstetric dilemma" that necessitates a comparatively short gestational period. In fact, human infants are so helpless, they can't even cough properly, and can easily choke on any random objects sitting around. The fact is that an extraordinarily high level of maternal vigilance is absolutely necessary for human civilization, as you well know. The fact that you wish to devalue women's contributions to same reflects very poorly indeed on you as a human being.

    https://www.health.ny.gov/prevention/injury_prevention/choking_prevention_for_children.htm

    ‘Men generally advance civilization; women sustain and perpetuate it.

    As I have explained elsewhere, civilization requires a large cranium coupled with bipedal locomotion. This creates an “obstetric dilemma” that necessitates a comparatively short gestational period. In fact, human infants are so helpless, they can’t even cough properly, and can easily choke on any random objects sitting around. The fact is that an extraordinarily high level of maternal vigilance is absolutely necessary for human civilization, as you well know. The fact that you wish to devalue women’s contributions to same reflects very poorly indeed on you as a human being.’

    You’re making me wish I’d saved my ‘agree’ for you. Rosie. Keep pitching.

  198. @Alice in Wonderland

    There you go casting women as passive recipients of male beneficence, as if we weren’t there the whole time, toiling and sacrificing for a better future. We do not accept your implicit claim that men’s contributions are more important and valuable than ours.
     
    Toiling and sacrificing in no way precludes being a passive recipient of male beneficence.

    Men created the stuff that made life better for everyone.

    FWIW horses toiled plenty, too. But they did not establish good governance nor create the innovations that so eased the burdens of daily life. Men did.

    As a woman, I can definitely say men's contributions are far far more important and valuable than women's and horses' for that matter.

    But they did not establish good governance nor create the innovations that so eased the burdens of daily life. Men did.

    Does it matter at all that we’ve been busy giving birth, nurturing babies, and then giving birth again into death for millennia? In order to improve life, you have to have life to begin with.

    Frankly, it is this obnoxious devaluation of women’s work that make women resent it, and understandably so.

    • Replies: @dfordoom

    Does it matter at all that we’ve been busy giving birth, nurturing babies, and then giving birth again into death for millennia? In order to improve life, you have to have life to begin with.

    Frankly, it is this obnoxious devaluation of women’s work that make women resent it, and understandably so.
     
    I do agree with you on that point. But isn't that a direct result of feminism? Haven't feminists been the ones who have devalued women's traditional roles of birthing, mothering, nurturing?
  199. @Sean
    I have read a lot of times about someone (not all celebrities, that general under Obama) who let a journalist hang around with them or watch them work, and then got eviscerated by the story. Getting access to everyday life is like reporters equivalent of the Reid technique for police breaking down suspects in interviews. Their job is to help you ... say something you will profoundly regret.

    So true. And interview subjects are often advised not to invite the reporter into their home or office even for a brief period, but to meet instead at a neutral site

  200. @Rosie

    You didn’t point out the lie, tho.
     
    Yes, I did. The lie is that women reach their fullest reasoning and mental faculties at 18. This is a self-justifying fairy tale men tell themselves to justify robbing the cradle. For awhile there at the height of the alt-right anti-woman hysteria, guys were claiming that girls were ready for marriage at 13.

    ‘Yes, I did. The lie is that women reach their fullest reasoning and mental faculties at 18. This is a self-justifying fairy tale men tell themselves to justify robbing the cradle. For awhile there at the height of the alt-right anti-woman hysteria, guys were claiming that girls were ready for marriage at 13.’

    There are a couple of possible replies to that. One of them is, who is ever ready for marriage?

    But seriously, yeah, thirteen is too young.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    There are a couple of possible replies to that. One of them is, who is ever ready for marriage?
     
    Mid-20s seems to be the lowest divorce risk, on average, not that there's anything wrong with getting married a few years earlier if a couple so desire.
    , @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Not for a certain Middle Eastern religion it isn't. After all, the most holy prophet consummated one of his wives when she was but 9. And in some Mid. Eastern nations, the consent is as low as 12.
  201. @MikeatMikedotMike
    I used to work for ABC Supply, who's primary operating model is roofing sales and delivery.

    Ironically, its founder Ken Hendricks, fell off his roof to his death about 10-15 years ago.

    Roofers have it tough, but so do concrete masons. Try forming and finishing hand curb when it's 90 degrees.

    Roofers have it tough, but so do concrete masons. Try forming and finishing hand curb when it’s 90 degrees.

    Given that there are plenty of days where the temperature does not reach 90 degrees, I see no adequate moral justification for risking human life in this fashion.

    • Replies: @Dtbb
    Really. I will think about that tomorrow thru October in between dodging lightning bolts. Things don't build themselves
    , @MikeatMikedotMike
    Roofers (and tradesmen in general) themselves don't see it that way. They look at it like "If I don't go to work today, I don't get paid." It's that simple. 90 degrees on a roof isn't optimal (is there an epidemic of roofers dying of heat stroke?), but it's safer than roofing in the rain (which no GC is going to allow if they're smart) or the snow, or sub freezing temps. In the Chicago area, if you eliminate 90 degree days, rain days, snow days, and below freezing days, roofers are only working 5 months a year. Most people aren't going to stay in a job like that and find other employment. Now nobody has a roof or it costs a lot more to get one.

    My point is the building and maintaining of infrastructure requires dangerous job to be performed in poor conditions. Mining, excavating, power grids, highway maintenance, construction all get done in dangerous conditions. There's no other option, but your sentiment is appreciated. I mean that sincerely.
    , @stillCARealist
    Dark-skinned guys from Mexico and Central America can do it with no problem. They grow up hacking crops with machetes in the dense heat. Really, it's no big deal to them. A friend married a Mexican guy and he works outside in all weather 6 days a week. I suspect that ability is a big part of his self-image.

    When we had our carpets replaced, two Mexicans came and moved all our heavy furniture in several rooms, tore out the old and put in the new, and then carried all the heavy stuff right back into place. This took them most of the day, but they went on to another job anyway. I don't think I can emphasize too much how big and heavy the furniture is.

    Lots of guys are really tough. Most women don't realize (until they do) how tough some guys can be.
  202. @Rosie

    And then we can compare lists.
     
    Men generally advance civilization; women sustain and perpetuate it.

    As I have explained elsewhere, civilization requires a large cranium coupled with bipedal locomotion. This creates an "obstetric dilemma" that necessitates a comparatively short gestational period. In fact, human infants are so helpless, they can't even cough properly, and can easily choke on any random objects sitting around. The fact is that an extraordinarily high level of maternal vigilance is absolutely necessary for human civilization, as you well know. The fact that you wish to devalue women's contributions to same reflects very poorly indeed on you as a human being.

    https://www.health.ny.gov/prevention/injury_prevention/choking_prevention_for_children.htm

  203. @Alice in Wonderland

    There you go casting women as passive recipients of male beneficence, as if we weren’t there the whole time, toiling and sacrificing for a better future. We do not accept your implicit claim that men’s contributions are more important and valuable than ours.
     
    Toiling and sacrificing in no way precludes being a passive recipient of male beneficence.

    Men created the stuff that made life better for everyone.

    FWIW horses toiled plenty, too. But they did not establish good governance nor create the innovations that so eased the burdens of daily life. Men did.

    As a woman, I can definitely say men's contributions are far far more important and valuable than women's and horses' for that matter.

    Toiling and sacrificing in no way precludes being a passive recipient of male beneficence.

    This is patently absurd. You cannot toil and be passive at the same time.

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/toil

  204. @Rosie

    And then we can compare lists.
     
    Men generally advance civilization; women sustain and perpetuate it.

    As I have explained elsewhere, civilization requires a large cranium coupled with bipedal locomotion. This creates an "obstetric dilemma" that necessitates a comparatively short gestational period. In fact, human infants are so helpless, they can't even cough properly, and can easily choke on any random objects sitting around. The fact is that an extraordinarily high level of maternal vigilance is absolutely necessary for human civilization, as you well know. The fact that you wish to devalue women's contributions to same reflects very poorly indeed on you as a human being.

    https://www.health.ny.gov/prevention/injury_prevention/choking_prevention_for_children.htm

    Men generally advance civilization; women sustain and perpetuate it.

    Agreed. Or at least that’s more or less the way it should work. Because men and women are profoundly different. They have radically different social functions, and naturally there are major differences in the ways they think and behave. The contributions of men and women to society are very different but equally important.

    That’s why traditional sex roles make both men and women happier.

  205. @Colin Wright
    'Yes, I did. The lie is that women reach their fullest reasoning and mental faculties at 18. This is a self-justifying fairy tale men tell themselves to justify robbing the cradle. For awhile there at the height of the alt-right anti-woman hysteria, guys were claiming that girls were ready for marriage at 13.'

    There are a couple of possible replies to that. One of them is, who is ever ready for marriage?

    But seriously, yeah, thirteen is too young.

    There are a couple of possible replies to that. One of them is, who is ever ready for marriage?

    Mid-20s seems to be the lowest divorce risk, on average, not that there’s anything wrong with getting married a few years earlier if a couple so desire.

  206. @TTSSYF
    I'm not saying I understand it. I'm just saying I heard it said. And that isn't to say that her fan base wasn't predominantly female or gay, or that she was ever as beautiful as Christie Brinkley or Cindy Crawford. I was merely making the point that some straight guys I knew in the 1980s thought she was attractive when she was about 27. Why is that such an utter impossibility? There's no accounting for taste.

    Because its utter BS, that’s why. Its more likely that master marketer Madonna had one of her then current images for marketing purposes to be a sex symbol desired by men, when the truth of the matter is she was never considered physically attractive to straight men.

    All we have to do is compare her to the various Alist supermodels of her generation. Madonna vs Christie Brinkley, who is more physically attractive to straight males? See? It’s not even arguable. Christie wins hands down. No one has to pause and think for a moment, “Gee, I dunno, that Christie isn’t all that compared to Madge.” Whatever.

    What did Christie Brinkley make her career on? Her LOOKS, and being appealing to straight males.

    What did Madonna make her career on? Supposedly something to do with singing, dancing, making albums, videos, etc. but looks dept. certainly wasn’t among them.

  207. @NYMOM
    I do agree that Madonna is far too old to continue playing a 'sex kitten' at concerts or otherwise but I also think that there could be something in what she said about women 'hating' on each other...

    I worked in academia in a supporting role and I noticed time and again how vicious women were to one another. The really excellent professional women were treated the worse by the other woman on staff and it eventually crossed over into the female adminstrative staff as well to the point that they could not even get a phone call answered.

    This crossed over all racial barriers by the way...

    I thought of this recently when I heard a woman on TV talking about how getting women into highest levels of business and government would open so many doors for other woman and I thought to myself: Lady are you gonna be surprised by the blowback when that happens.

    BTW, this is also true on juries. Men in juries are far more sympathetic to women defendants than other woman are and woman judges are particularly vicious to other women in custody hearings. It's the old male patriarchs of the system who give women all the breaks...

    Just thought I would point this out.

    ‘I worked in academia in a supporting role and I noticed time and again how vicious women were to one another…’

    This isn’t the first time I’ve heard this. There’s a lot to be said on the topic, but for now, let’s just note that the model of patriarchal oppression is…inadequate.

  208. @Rosie

    But they did not establish good governance nor create the innovations that so eased the burdens of daily life. Men did.
     
    Does it matter at all that we've been busy giving birth, nurturing babies, and then giving birth again into death for millennia? In order to improve life, you have to have life to begin with.

    Frankly, it is this obnoxious devaluation of women's work that make women resent it, and understandably so.

    Does it matter at all that we’ve been busy giving birth, nurturing babies, and then giving birth again into death for millennia? In order to improve life, you have to have life to begin with.

    Frankly, it is this obnoxious devaluation of women’s work that make women resent it, and understandably so.

    I do agree with you on that point. But isn’t that a direct result of feminism? Haven’t feminists been the ones who have devalued women’s traditional roles of birthing, mothering, nurturing?

    • Agree: Desiderius
    • Replies: @Rosie

    I do agree with you on that point. But isn’t that a direct result of feminism? Haven’t feminists been the ones who have devalued women’s traditional roles of birthing, mothering, nurturing?
     
    Absolutely not. Men's disrespectful attitudes toward women, on display here at unz, created fertile soil for feminists that otherwise would not have existed.
  209. @Alice in Wonderland

    There you go casting women as passive recipients of male beneficence, as if we weren’t there the whole time, toiling and sacrificing for a better future. We do not accept your implicit claim that men’s contributions are more important and valuable than ours.
     
    Toiling and sacrificing in no way precludes being a passive recipient of male beneficence.

    Men created the stuff that made life better for everyone.

    FWIW horses toiled plenty, too. But they did not establish good governance nor create the innovations that so eased the burdens of daily life. Men did.

    As a woman, I can definitely say men's contributions are far far more important and valuable than women's and horses' for that matter.

    It’s a silly argument.

    Men and women created civilization together. Team effort all the way. A house divided against itself cannot stand.

    • Agree: Liza
  210. @Rosie

    Roofers have it tough, but so do concrete masons. Try forming and finishing hand curb when it’s 90 degrees.
     
    Given that there are plenty of days where the temperature does not reach 90 degrees, I see no adequate moral justification for risking human life in this fashion.

    Really. I will think about that tomorrow thru October in between dodging lightning bolts. Things don’t build themselves

    • Replies: @Rosie

    Really. I will think about that tomorrow thru October in between dodging lightning bolts. Things don’t build themselves
     
    As you can see, there are plenty of days in which to build things that do not pose the risk of heat stroke.

    https://www.currentresults.com/Weather/US/number-hot-days-cities-summer.php
  211. @Colin Wright
    'Yes, I did. The lie is that women reach their fullest reasoning and mental faculties at 18. This is a self-justifying fairy tale men tell themselves to justify robbing the cradle. For awhile there at the height of the alt-right anti-woman hysteria, guys were claiming that girls were ready for marriage at 13.'

    There are a couple of possible replies to that. One of them is, who is ever ready for marriage?

    But seriously, yeah, thirteen is too young.

    Not for a certain Middle Eastern religion it isn’t. After all, the most holy prophet consummated one of his wives when she was but 9. And in some Mid. Eastern nations, the consent is as low as 12.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    In premodern societies marriage usually takes place after the start of menstruation, no matter how young the girl is.
    , @Colin Wright
    'Not for a certain Middle Eastern religion it isn’t. After all, the most holy prophet consummated one of his wives when she was but 9. And in some Mid. Eastern nations, the consent is as low as 12.'

    ...and if you look up the biographies of various early nineteenth century American politicians, you'll discover that their mothers must have been wed at thirteen or even twelve, and the ancient Romans considered the ideal age for a bride to be eleven.

    Did you have a point?
  212. @guest
    The rich are taken advantage of in that fashion. But it's like me picking up a candy bar at a gas station knowing I could get it for thirty cents or whatever cheaper if I went to the grocery store. Okay, I overpaid. But I don't really care.

    No, they’re not being taken advantage of. They just wanna make real sure that they get exactly what they pay for, period. If they want a particular individual pornstar/escort/THOT/etc, then by golly, they are gonna get that individual no matter what.

    Still not sure why the Donald was fixated with Stormy in particular. It’s not like she was the only pornstar out there on the market at the time. He could just as easily have gotten with a dozen similar ones in the looks department. Jenna Jameson, for instance, who was even bigger in popularity at the time. Also, it does make you wonder how many other pornstars he hooked up with and why they never bothered to write their memoirs so they could also cash in.

    • Replies: @William Badwhite

    it does make you wonder how many other pornstars he hooked up with and why they never bothered to write their memoirs so they could also cash in.
     
    He had Daniels sign a non-disclosure agreement (which she violated). Maybe there are others that honored their agreement?
  213. @The Wild Geese Howard
    The going rate for Gulf Arabs paying Instagram "models" for a weekend of degradation appears to be about $25 to 30k.

    Is that it? For 2019 if that’s the going rate, it sounds kinda cheap, like doable. Any MLB/NFL/NBA starting player could pay for that out of petty cash files. Maybe they already do. Dang!

  214. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    I would have to see these people. Only time Madonna came up among straight men with any amount of testosterone was as a punch line to a joke. Generally, her fan base was women, along with gays. Now if you want to compare her to Christie Brinkley, or even Cindy Crawford as to which woman that guys were definitely into at the time, think the results will be fairly obvious (not Madonna).

    Madonna = Sex Symbol for guys never caught on, and was only an idea among her PRs and handlers.

    LIKE a Virgin, as opposed to AS a sexy woman (Christie Brinkley). Just put the two women's headshots from their prime years (under 30) side by side, to better understand.

    I would have to see these people. Only time Madonna came up among straight men with any amount of testosterone was as a punch line to a joke.

    A stand-up comic in the ’80s went into detail about how women hated Madonna, summing it up by hissing “She’s a tramp!”

    He continued, “Men? Men like Madonna. Because, well… she’s a tramp.”

    By “like”, I don’t think he meant “attracted to”. More like, “It’s good to have some of her kind around.”

  215. As an impressionable young chap I found Mk 1 Madonna quite attractive. The upgraded, ripped version – not at all. And nothing has improved since then either.

    No complaints when she looked like this:

  216. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    And then we can compare lists.
     
    Men generally advance civilization; women sustain and perpetuate it.

    As I have explained elsewhere, civilization requires a large cranium coupled with bipedal locomotion. This creates an "obstetric dilemma" that necessitates a comparatively short gestational period. In fact, human infants are so helpless, they can't even cough properly, and can easily choke on any random objects sitting around. The fact is that an extraordinarily high level of maternal vigilance is absolutely necessary for human civilization, as you well know. The fact that you wish to devalue women's contributions to same reflects very poorly indeed on you as a human being.

    https://www.health.ny.gov/prevention/injury_prevention/choking_prevention_for_children.htm

    This is a fallacious argument. Human infants are helpless and require maternal care regardless of civilization. Hunter-gatherer babies can choke on random objects too. That’s not what distinguishes civilization from other social forms.

    Also, humans have relatively long gestational periods compared to most animals.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    You're an idiot. The point is that maternal responsibility and intelligence allow societies to develop from the hunter-gatherer stage.

    https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2018/06/22/helpless-at-birth-why-human-babies-are-different-than-other-animals/

    Why are you so eager to monopolize credit for civilization? Are you looking for an excuse to bully your wife?
  217. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    Women nowadays have no appreciation for what men in the past—the “patriarchy”—have provided for them.
     
    There you go casting women as passive recipients of male beneficence, as if we weren't there the whole time, toiling and sacrificing for a better future. We do not accept your implicit claim that men's contributions are more important and valuable than ours.

    Female companionship, maternal love and care, are uniquely valuable and simply cannot be compared with what men do, which is qualitatively different. However, they are not unique to civilization or advanced societies. If anything, they’re diminished with the advance and decadence of society. They are present in simpler societies, and among animals as well.

    The “toiling” in homemaking tasks is done out of a division of labor, and results from comparative advantage, rather than absolute advantage. In general, men have an absolute advantage not just in traditional “men’s work” such as farming, hunting, tinkering, laboring, etc., but also in household tasks i.e. traditionally “women’s work” such as cooking and cleaning. Men make the best chefs, have greater strength to scrub floors and clean, etc. But men also have a greater opportunity cost: if they’re inside cooking and scrubbing, they’re not harvesting crops and hauling in meat. While women generally can’t farm and hunt as well, so their opportunity cost is much less if they stick to cooking and cleaning inside. Thus it’s better for the man to farm and hunt and the woman to provide cooking, cleaning, and general homemaking services, and for them to share i.e. trade the greater proceeds with each other. This is the comparative advantage theory of trade applied to the married household.

    • Replies: @Bel Riose
    Exactly right.

    Or, to paraphrase: "whatever a woman can do, a man can do better."

    There are only two (useful) things a woman can do which a man cannot: give birth, and breastfeed.

    , @FeelTheBern
    Stop making Reason!
  218. @simple_pseudonymic_handle
    1. The New York times is dead although it staggers on like a Zombie
    2. The article was very flattering to the old broad
    3. From the article:

    She told me she wasn’t yet over the release of her last album, “Rebel Heart,” in 2015, which sold less than her others. The songs had leaked online several months early, far from perfection. “There are no words to describe how devastated I was,” she said. “It took me a while to recover, and put such a bad taste in my mouth I wasn’t really interested in making music.” She added, “I felt raped.” It didn’t feel right to explain that women these days were trying not to use that word metaphorically.
     
    Poor Madonna. But the one good thing I learned is that Guy Ritchie took 75 mil in the divorce! Hear here for equality.

    Thanks for digging out that…erm…nugget. No way I’d click on an NYT link.

    Maybe Madonna could come back at Ms. Glamor-Shot Gazongas by saying that commenting on how other women speak leaves a bad taste in the mouth. The taste of rape.

    After all, isn’t Madam GSB using the pen–so phallic, so mightier than the phallic sword–to score points against an old broad whose glory days are waning?

    Or maybe the mouth-taste Madonna was referring to involved

    rape (n.2)

    kind of cruciferous plant (Brassica napus), late 14c., from Old French rape, from Latin rapa, rapum “turnip,” cognate with Greek hrapys “rape,” Old Church Slavonic repa, Lithuanian ropė, Middle Dutch roeve, Old High German ruoba, German Rübe “rape, turnip,” perhaps a common borrowing from a non-IE word (de Vaan). Usually grown to feed sheep, an oil made from it is used in cooking (see canola).

  219. @guest
    I don't know if being in Hegel's league is enviable, except as regards influence.

    As for being in Nietzsche's league as a writer, no. Apart from the fact that he can be enjoy in bite-sized morsels, there's a reason Nietzsche is one of the most-read philosophers. There's also a reason very few people ever read Schopenhauer.

    Personally, I enjoyed read (parts of) World as Will and Understanding. But that wasn't for the prose. Which was an absolute slog.

    I don’t know if being in Hegel’s league is enviable…

    On that point, Schopenhauer himself would probably agree – he hated & resented Hegel, even more than he hated & resented his mother.

    As for being in Nietzsche’s league as a writer, no.

    Well, I guess it’s a matter of taste. Nietzsche, as an aphorist, is pretty much un-surpassable; still, he can be awfully turgid (The Birth of Tragedy, Untimely Essays) and just generally cringey (Zarathustra). Schopenhauer writes clearly & forcefully, without drawing attention away from the topic to hand and toward his own cleverness. I kind of like that.

  220. @Pericles

    That’s one of the reasons feminism never really seems to work, women hate or are jealous of each other constantly.

     

    Ask a woman if she has a female boss.

    I’ve had a female boss for over 20 years. She’s brilliant and also one of the finest human beings I’ve ever known.

    • Replies: @Pericles
    Don't change jobs.
    , @TTSSYF
    It should be rather obvious that, since I've been there for over 20 years, I don't plan to.
  221. @Rosie

    Roofers have it tough, but so do concrete masons. Try forming and finishing hand curb when it’s 90 degrees.
     
    Given that there are plenty of days where the temperature does not reach 90 degrees, I see no adequate moral justification for risking human life in this fashion.

    Roofers (and tradesmen in general) themselves don’t see it that way. They look at it like “If I don’t go to work today, I don’t get paid.” It’s that simple. 90 degrees on a roof isn’t optimal (is there an epidemic of roofers dying of heat stroke?), but it’s safer than roofing in the rain (which no GC is going to allow if they’re smart) or the snow, or sub freezing temps. In the Chicago area, if you eliminate 90 degree days, rain days, snow days, and below freezing days, roofers are only working 5 months a year. Most people aren’t going to stay in a job like that and find other employment. Now nobody has a roof or it costs a lot more to get one.

    My point is the building and maintaining of infrastructure requires dangerous job to be performed in poor conditions. Mining, excavating, power grids, highway maintenance, construction all get done in dangerous conditions. There’s no other option, but your sentiment is appreciated. I mean that sincerely.

  222. @Anonymous
    Female companionship, maternal love and care, are uniquely valuable and simply cannot be compared with what men do, which is qualitatively different. However, they are not unique to civilization or advanced societies. If anything, they're diminished with the advance and decadence of society. They are present in simpler societies, and among animals as well.

    The "toiling" in homemaking tasks is done out of a division of labor, and results from comparative advantage, rather than absolute advantage. In general, men have an absolute advantage not just in traditional "men's work" such as farming, hunting, tinkering, laboring, etc., but also in household tasks i.e. traditionally "women's work" such as cooking and cleaning. Men make the best chefs, have greater strength to scrub floors and clean, etc. But men also have a greater opportunity cost: if they're inside cooking and scrubbing, they're not harvesting crops and hauling in meat. While women generally can't farm and hunt as well, so their opportunity cost is much less if they stick to cooking and cleaning inside. Thus it's better for the man to farm and hunt and the woman to provide cooking, cleaning, and general homemaking services, and for them to share i.e. trade the greater proceeds with each other. This is the comparative advantage theory of trade applied to the married household.

    Exactly right.

    Or, to paraphrase: “whatever a woman can do, a man can do better.”

    There are only two (useful) things a woman can do which a man cannot: give birth, and breastfeed.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    There are only two (useful) things a woman can do which a man cannot: give birth, and breastfeed.
     
    And nurture children. It doesn't matter in any event. What matters is not what each partner could do, but in fact what they do.

    This is, in fact, the very curious thing about this whole line of argument. If you cherry pick a few men's jobs as the very most difficult, that doesn't justify degradation of women in the family. The fact is that most men sit on their asses all day doing work that most women could do, so on what grounds do they come home demanding dinner from a wife who has been on her feet, working harder than him, mentally as well as physically, all day? P Most men actually should cook dinner for their wives.
  223. @TED
    Madonna needs to see the movie "Sunset Boulevard". Take several hours pondering the character "Norma Desmond", and then spend several hours looking in the mirror.

    She’s not ready for her close-up yet.

  224. @Dtbb
    Really. I will think about that tomorrow thru October in between dodging lightning bolts. Things don't build themselves

    Really. I will think about that tomorrow thru October in between dodging lightning bolts. Things don’t build themselves

    As you can see, there are plenty of days in which to build things that do not pose the risk of heat stroke.

    https://www.currentresults.com/Weather/US/number-hot-days-cities-summer.php

  225. @Anonymous
    This is a fallacious argument. Human infants are helpless and require maternal care regardless of civilization. Hunter-gatherer babies can choke on random objects too. That's not what distinguishes civilization from other social forms.

    Also, humans have relatively long gestational periods compared to most animals.

    You’re an idiot. The point is that maternal responsibility and intelligence allow societies to develop from the hunter-gatherer stage.

    https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2018/06/22/helpless-at-birth-why-human-babies-are-different-than-other-animals/

    Why are you so eager to monopolize credit for civilization? Are you looking for an excuse to bully your wife?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Maternal care exists in simple societies and among other mammals as well. Panda babies are even more helpless:

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/why-are-panda-babies-so-small_n_3844218

    "At birth, a panda cub is helpless. It takes considerable effort on the mother’s part to raise it. A newborn weighs three to five ounces. Pink, hairless, and blind, the cub is 1/900th the size of its mother. Except for a marsupial (such as the kangaroo or opossum), panda babies are the smallest newborn mammals relative to their mother's size."
    , @Bel Riose
    Rosie:

    Once you start insulting folks instead of rebutting their arguments, you've already lost.

    We understand that you are merely a woman, and are subject to all the limitations of your gender -- including overreaction, and letting your emotions govern your actions.

    But even so, you should strive to keep your emotions under control. Avoid ad hominem attacks, and address the argument presented. You will do yourself, and your gender, much better credit that way.

  226. @dfordoom

    Does it matter at all that we’ve been busy giving birth, nurturing babies, and then giving birth again into death for millennia? In order to improve life, you have to have life to begin with.

    Frankly, it is this obnoxious devaluation of women’s work that make women resent it, and understandably so.
     
    I do agree with you on that point. But isn't that a direct result of feminism? Haven't feminists been the ones who have devalued women's traditional roles of birthing, mothering, nurturing?

    I do agree with you on that point. But isn’t that a direct result of feminism? Haven’t feminists been the ones who have devalued women’s traditional roles of birthing, mothering, nurturing?

    Absolutely not. Men’s disrespectful attitudes toward women, on display here at unz, created fertile soil for feminists that otherwise would not have existed.

    • Replies: @dfordoom

    Absolutely not. Men’s disrespectful attitudes toward women, on display here at unz, created fertile soil for feminists that otherwise would not have existed.
     
    But those disrespectful attitudes toward women are a product of the social changes of the last fifty years, especially feminism. Men used to put women on pedestals. Feminists complained. Then men stopped putting women on pedestals. And feminists complained.

    I don't like disrespectful attitudes toward women either. But such attitudes were almost non-existent before feminism.
  227. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    I would have to see these people. Only time Madonna came up among straight men with any amount of testosterone was as a punch line to a joke. Generally, her fan base was women, along with gays. Now if you want to compare her to Christie Brinkley, or even Cindy Crawford as to which woman that guys were definitely into at the time, think the results will be fairly obvious (not Madonna).

    Madonna = Sex Symbol for guys never caught on, and was only an idea among her PRs and handlers.

    LIKE a Virgin, as opposed to AS a sexy woman (Christie Brinkley). Just put the two women's headshots from their prime years (under 30) side by side, to better understand.

    My first awareness of Madonna was when I went to see DSS in the spring of ’85. Two things happened. First, I fell in lust with Rosanna Arquette. Second, I became transfixed by “Into The Groove,” which I still find to be one of the catchiest tunes ever. As I look back on the film now, what stands out to me is the scene where Madonna tries to shoplift the cool boots at the secondhand store. The shoplifter is white, the storeowner careful to prevent shoplifting is black (“baby – stay on the carpet, OK?”)

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Notice: Two chicks in same film (and Madonna well in her prime as far as youth goes) and you were in lust not with Madge, but with Rosanna Arquette. In other words, if Arquette could get men excited, think what Christie Brinkley would do up vs. Madonna.

    Maybe I'm getting up in years, do male posters here not remember Christie Brinkley? As far as...what she is known for (being a supermodel, considered one of the best looking women of her era, etc).

    Seriously? We're talking almost a proverbial perfect 10. Come on.

    Also very telling that singer songwriter entertainer Billy Joel, who was famous before Madonna, didn't think to ask her out, but went straight for Brinkley.

  228. @Colin Wright
    '... She added, “I felt raped.” ...'

    And she felt raped in the article. And presumably, she felt raped when she was raped. Madonna seems to feel raped a lot.

    Right. She says she felt raped in the article, which she presumably read, by getting her album pirated. Then in the instagram post she says she felt raped by the personality profile in the NY Times Sunday Magazine.

    It seems like Pavlovian level response and I would presume she feels raped by us pointing out that this comes across as dumb.

  229. @Pericles

    They were both taking dance classes in NYC at the same studio. He said she was the most commanding, demanding, loud, alpha wolf he’d ever seen in female form. At 19. Was that the result of the rape, or was she really the perpetrator and she’s messed up her memory in self-defense?

     

    Was there perhaps a gay latino dancer who one day had a breakdown and fled the class in tears, never to come back?

    Say what?

    I’ll ask him. Were you there too? Or is that in a movie that I never saw?

    • Replies: @Pericles
    Haha, no, just a hunch since it was Madonna.
  230. @Rosie

    Roofers have it tough, but so do concrete masons. Try forming and finishing hand curb when it’s 90 degrees.
     
    Given that there are plenty of days where the temperature does not reach 90 degrees, I see no adequate moral justification for risking human life in this fashion.

    Dark-skinned guys from Mexico and Central America can do it with no problem. They grow up hacking crops with machetes in the dense heat. Really, it’s no big deal to them. A friend married a Mexican guy and he works outside in all weather 6 days a week. I suspect that ability is a big part of his self-image.

    When we had our carpets replaced, two Mexicans came and moved all our heavy furniture in several rooms, tore out the old and put in the new, and then carried all the heavy stuff right back into place. This took them most of the day, but they went on to another job anyway. I don’t think I can emphasize too much how big and heavy the furniture is.

    Lots of guys are really tough. Most women don’t realize (until they do) how tough some guys can be.

  231. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie
    You're an idiot. The point is that maternal responsibility and intelligence allow societies to develop from the hunter-gatherer stage.

    https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2018/06/22/helpless-at-birth-why-human-babies-are-different-than-other-animals/

    Why are you so eager to monopolize credit for civilization? Are you looking for an excuse to bully your wife?

    Maternal care exists in simple societies and among other mammals as well. Panda babies are even more helpless:

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/why-are-panda-babies-so-small_n_3844218

    “At birth, a panda cub is helpless. It takes considerable effort on the mother’s part to raise it. A newborn weighs three to five ounces. Pink, hairless, and blind, the cub is 1/900th the size of its mother. Except for a marsupial (such as the kangaroo or opossum), panda babies are the smallest newborn mammals relative to their mother’s size.”

    • Replies: @Rosie

    At birth, a panda cub is helpless. It takes considerable effort on the mother’s part to raise it. A newborn weighs three to five ounces. Pink, hairless, and blind, the cub is 1/900th the size of its mother. Except for a marsupial (such as the kangaroo or opossum), panda babies are the smallest newborn mammals relative to their mother’s size.”
     
    You're showing you're stupidity again. Pandas are marsupials, so of course they are "born" tiny, and the pouch simplifies motherhood a great deal.

    In any event, the simple fact is this: you cannot produce individuals capable of producing or maintaining civilization without very intensive, high-investment mothering. It simply is not possible.

    I feel sorry for your wife.

  232. @TTSSYF
    I've had a female boss for over 20 years. She's brilliant and also one of the finest human beings I've ever known.

    Don’t change jobs.

  233. @TED
    Madonna needs to see the movie "Sunset Boulevard". Take several hours pondering the character "Norma Desmond", and then spend several hours looking in the mirror.

    Morbid curiosity led me to the theatre about 20 years ago to see Madge’s rancid remake of the terrific and very sexy Italian movie “Swept Away,” about two class enemies stranded on a desert island. Even then, two decades younger than she is now, she had a scene allowing her to pout and whine about the unfairness of younger tarts stealing the spotlight from such an accomplished artiste. Her ex, Guy Ritchie, directed this turkey. The headline for the film review in the NY Post captured the overall effect: “Washed Up.”

  234. @Marty
    My first awareness of Madonna was when I went to see DSS in the spring of '85. Two things happened. First, I fell in lust with Rosanna Arquette. Second, I became transfixed by "Into The Groove," which I still find to be one of the catchiest tunes ever. As I look back on the film now, what stands out to me is the scene where Madonna tries to shoplift the cool boots at the secondhand store. The shoplifter is white, the storeowner careful to prevent shoplifting is black ("baby - stay on the carpet, OK?")

    Notice: Two chicks in same film (and Madonna well in her prime as far as youth goes) and you were in lust not with Madge, but with Rosanna Arquette. In other words, if Arquette could get men excited, think what Christie Brinkley would do up vs. Madonna.

    Maybe I’m getting up in years, do male posters here not remember Christie Brinkley? As far as…what she is known for (being a supermodel, considered one of the best looking women of her era, etc).

    Seriously? We’re talking almost a proverbial perfect 10. Come on.

    Also very telling that singer songwriter entertainer Billy Joel, who was famous before Madonna, didn’t think to ask her out, but went straight for Brinkley.

  235. @Rosie
    You're an idiot. The point is that maternal responsibility and intelligence allow societies to develop from the hunter-gatherer stage.

    https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2018/06/22/helpless-at-birth-why-human-babies-are-different-than-other-animals/

    Why are you so eager to monopolize credit for civilization? Are you looking for an excuse to bully your wife?

    Rosie:

    Once you start insulting folks instead of rebutting their arguments, you’ve already lost.

    We understand that you are merely a woman, and are subject to all the limitations of your gender — including overreaction, and letting your emotions govern your actions.

    But even so, you should strive to keep your emotions under control. Avoid ad hominem attacks, and address the argument presented. You will do yourself, and your gender, much better credit that way.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    I've had enough dealings with this Anon to know that he is intellectually dishonest and therefore not entitled to the same courtesies as decent people are. I will insult him, and you, as I wish.

    When Steve decides to impose a no-insult rule, I'll be sure and abide by it. As it is, I am treated disgracefully around here, and never once have I heard a peep about it from you. So pardon my skepticism about your concern for civility.

  236. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    No, they're not being taken advantage of. They just wanna make real sure that they get exactly what they pay for, period. If they want a particular individual pornstar/escort/THOT/etc, then by golly, they are gonna get that individual no matter what.

    Still not sure why the Donald was fixated with Stormy in particular. It's not like she was the only pornstar out there on the market at the time. He could just as easily have gotten with a dozen similar ones in the looks department. Jenna Jameson, for instance, who was even bigger in popularity at the time. Also, it does make you wonder how many other pornstars he hooked up with and why they never bothered to write their memoirs so they could also cash in.

    it does make you wonder how many other pornstars he hooked up with and why they never bothered to write their memoirs so they could also cash in.

    He had Daniels sign a non-disclosure agreement (which she violated). Maybe there are others that honored their agreement?

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Then they are suckers. Could've cashed in.
  237. @Bel Riose
    Rosie:

    Once you start insulting folks instead of rebutting their arguments, you've already lost.

    We understand that you are merely a woman, and are subject to all the limitations of your gender -- including overreaction, and letting your emotions govern your actions.

    But even so, you should strive to keep your emotions under control. Avoid ad hominem attacks, and address the argument presented. You will do yourself, and your gender, much better credit that way.

    I’ve had enough dealings with this Anon to know that he is intellectually dishonest and therefore not entitled to the same courtesies as decent people are. I will insult him, and you, as I wish.

    When Steve decides to impose a no-insult rule, I’ll be sure and abide by it. As it is, I am treated disgracefully around here, and never once have I heard a peep about it from you. So pardon my skepticism about your concern for civility.

  238. Anonymous[354] • Disclaimer says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Not for a certain Middle Eastern religion it isn't. After all, the most holy prophet consummated one of his wives when she was but 9. And in some Mid. Eastern nations, the consent is as low as 12.

    In premodern societies marriage usually takes place after the start of menstruation, no matter how young the girl is.

  239. Anonymous[354] • Disclaimer says:

    When a celebrity pays for a high class prostitute he isn’t paying that premium for better service but for her to keep her mouth shut.

    This was the mistake that Israeli ShamWow guy off YouTube made. He wanted to have some fun with a common whore, but she recognized him, and so ran screaming to the newspapers claiming that he beat and raped her. He should have seen that coming.

  240. @Bel Riose
    Exactly right.

    Or, to paraphrase: "whatever a woman can do, a man can do better."

    There are only two (useful) things a woman can do which a man cannot: give birth, and breastfeed.

    There are only two (useful) things a woman can do which a man cannot: give birth, and breastfeed.

    And nurture children. It doesn’t matter in any event. What matters is not what each partner could do, but in fact what they do.

    This is, in fact, the very curious thing about this whole line of argument. If you cherry pick a few men’s jobs as the very most difficult, that doesn’t justify degradation of women in the family. The fact is that most men sit on their asses all day doing work that most women could do, so on what grounds do they come home demanding dinner from a wife who has been on her feet, working harder than him, mentally as well as physically, all day? P Most men actually should cook dinner for their wives.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    The fact is that most men sit on their asses all day doing work that most women could do
     
    That is precisely the modern dilemma. Male provisioning and labor generates so much surplus now that we can replace men with women in many jobs without society immediately grinding to a halt and people starving. And indeed that is what we are doing with the aggressive promotion of women into traditionally male dominated fields. But this devaluation of male labor will eventually take its toll and the surplus will whittle away.
  241. @Anonymous
    Maternal care exists in simple societies and among other mammals as well. Panda babies are even more helpless:

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/why-are-panda-babies-so-small_n_3844218

    "At birth, a panda cub is helpless. It takes considerable effort on the mother’s part to raise it. A newborn weighs three to five ounces. Pink, hairless, and blind, the cub is 1/900th the size of its mother. Except for a marsupial (such as the kangaroo or opossum), panda babies are the smallest newborn mammals relative to their mother's size."

    At birth, a panda cub is helpless. It takes considerable effort on the mother’s part to raise it. A newborn weighs three to five ounces. Pink, hairless, and blind, the cub is 1/900th the size of its mother. Except for a marsupial (such as the kangaroo or opossum), panda babies are the smallest newborn mammals relative to their mother’s size.”

    You’re showing you’re stupidity again. Pandas are marsupials, so of course they are “born” tiny, and the pouch simplifies motherhood a great deal.

    In any event, the simple fact is this: you cannot produce individuals capable of producing or maintaining civilization without very intensive, high-investment mothering. It simply is not possible.

    I feel sorry for your wife.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    Oh look, I was wrong. (It happens every once in awhile.) Pandas aren't marsupials. Not that it matters.
    , @Anonymous
    Pandas aren't marsupials. They're a kind of bear.
    , @Anonymous
    Nobody denies maternal care and investment are important. But they're present in simple societies, and throughout the animal kingdom. They're important, but they're not what distinguishes advanced societies. Pandas don't have complex societies.
  242. @Rosie

    At birth, a panda cub is helpless. It takes considerable effort on the mother’s part to raise it. A newborn weighs three to five ounces. Pink, hairless, and blind, the cub is 1/900th the size of its mother. Except for a marsupial (such as the kangaroo or opossum), panda babies are the smallest newborn mammals relative to their mother’s size.”
     
    You're showing you're stupidity again. Pandas are marsupials, so of course they are "born" tiny, and the pouch simplifies motherhood a great deal.

    In any event, the simple fact is this: you cannot produce individuals capable of producing or maintaining civilization without very intensive, high-investment mothering. It simply is not possible.

    I feel sorry for your wife.

    Oh look, I was wrong. (It happens every once in awhile.) Pandas aren’t marsupials. Not that it matters.

  243. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    At birth, a panda cub is helpless. It takes considerable effort on the mother’s part to raise it. A newborn weighs three to five ounces. Pink, hairless, and blind, the cub is 1/900th the size of its mother. Except for a marsupial (such as the kangaroo or opossum), panda babies are the smallest newborn mammals relative to their mother’s size.”
     
    You're showing you're stupidity again. Pandas are marsupials, so of course they are "born" tiny, and the pouch simplifies motherhood a great deal.

    In any event, the simple fact is this: you cannot produce individuals capable of producing or maintaining civilization without very intensive, high-investment mothering. It simply is not possible.

    I feel sorry for your wife.

    Pandas aren’t marsupials. They’re a kind of bear.

  244. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    At birth, a panda cub is helpless. It takes considerable effort on the mother’s part to raise it. A newborn weighs three to five ounces. Pink, hairless, and blind, the cub is 1/900th the size of its mother. Except for a marsupial (such as the kangaroo or opossum), panda babies are the smallest newborn mammals relative to their mother’s size.”
     
    You're showing you're stupidity again. Pandas are marsupials, so of course they are "born" tiny, and the pouch simplifies motherhood a great deal.

    In any event, the simple fact is this: you cannot produce individuals capable of producing or maintaining civilization without very intensive, high-investment mothering. It simply is not possible.

    I feel sorry for your wife.

    Nobody denies maternal care and investment are important. But they’re present in simple societies, and throughout the animal kingdom. They’re important, but they’re not what distinguishes advanced societies. Pandas don’t have complex societies.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    They’re important, but they’re not what distinguishes advanced societies. Pandas don’t have complex societies.
     
    I'm not arguing that maternal care is sufficient for civilization. Only that it is necessary, and men are unjustified in taking sole credit for civilization, which is clearly a team effort.
  245. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    There are only two (useful) things a woman can do which a man cannot: give birth, and breastfeed.
     
    And nurture children. It doesn't matter in any event. What matters is not what each partner could do, but in fact what they do.

    This is, in fact, the very curious thing about this whole line of argument. If you cherry pick a few men's jobs as the very most difficult, that doesn't justify degradation of women in the family. The fact is that most men sit on their asses all day doing work that most women could do, so on what grounds do they come home demanding dinner from a wife who has been on her feet, working harder than him, mentally as well as physically, all day? P Most men actually should cook dinner for their wives.

    The fact is that most men sit on their asses all day doing work that most women could do

    That is precisely the modern dilemma. Male provisioning and labor generates so much surplus now that we can replace men with women in many jobs without society immediately grinding to a halt and people starving. And indeed that is what we are doing with the aggressive promotion of women into traditionally male dominated fields. But this devaluation of male labor will eventually take its toll and the surplus will whittle away.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    But this devaluation of male labor will eventually take its toll and the surplus will whittle away.
     
    No, it won't. Women can do the jobs they are interested in just fine. (That's why they're interested in them.) What will happen is that the sustaining work of civilization will not get done. The solution is certainly not to belittle traditional women's work as you do.
    , @Rosie

    Male provisioning and labor generates so much surplus ...
     
    Once again you outrageously write women out of the story, as if these men just appeared fully grown, healthy, numerate and literate, from thin air.
  246. @Anonymous
    Nobody denies maternal care and investment are important. But they're present in simple societies, and throughout the animal kingdom. They're important, but they're not what distinguishes advanced societies. Pandas don't have complex societies.

    They’re important, but they’re not what distinguishes advanced societies. Pandas don’t have complex societies.

    I’m not arguing that maternal care is sufficient for civilization. Only that it is necessary, and men are unjustified in taking sole credit for civilization, which is clearly a team effort.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    It's not about "credit". It's about which factors and circumstances are present or absent across different phenomena.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mill%27s_methods#Method_of_difference

    "If an instance in which the phenomenon under investigation occurs, and an instance in which it does not occur, have every circumstance save one in common, that one occurring only in the former; the circumstance in which alone the two instances differ, is the effect, or cause, or a necessary part of the cause, of the phenomenon. "
  247. @Anonymous

    The fact is that most men sit on their asses all day doing work that most women could do
     
    That is precisely the modern dilemma. Male provisioning and labor generates so much surplus now that we can replace men with women in many jobs without society immediately grinding to a halt and people starving. And indeed that is what we are doing with the aggressive promotion of women into traditionally male dominated fields. But this devaluation of male labor will eventually take its toll and the surplus will whittle away.

    But this devaluation of male labor will eventually take its toll and the surplus will whittle away.

    No, it won’t. Women can do the jobs they are interested in just fine. (That’s why they’re interested in them.) What will happen is that the sustaining work of civilization will not get done. The solution is certainly not to belittle traditional women’s work as you do.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Do you believe if men and traditionally male occupations were replaced by women, material standards and economic growth would be maintained? That is quite a radical view.
    , @Anonymous
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2va3xdM_wfs
  248. @TTSSYF
    I've had a female boss for over 20 years. She's brilliant and also one of the finest human beings I've ever known.

    It should be rather obvious that, since I’ve been there for over 20 years, I don’t plan to.

  249. @Anonymous

    The fact is that most men sit on their asses all day doing work that most women could do
     
    That is precisely the modern dilemma. Male provisioning and labor generates so much surplus now that we can replace men with women in many jobs without society immediately grinding to a halt and people starving. And indeed that is what we are doing with the aggressive promotion of women into traditionally male dominated fields. But this devaluation of male labor will eventually take its toll and the surplus will whittle away.

    Male provisioning and labor generates so much surplus …

    Once again you outrageously write women out of the story, as if these men just appeared fully grown, healthy, numerate and literate, from thin air.

  250. American men are so extremely picky and judgmental about women’s looks and will nit-pick about every little flaw in the average woman while espousing the most simplistic of female stereotypes. And yet, more than a few of these extremely picky men will willingly have sex with an animal (e.g., when on long stints at sea), a melon in the family watermelon patch, or another man (e.g., in prison). I think quite a few of such men actually are making excuses for the fact that they are not nearly as successful with women as they’d like to be, so they find fault with all but the most gorgeous (and unattainable) ones as a cover.

  251. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    But this devaluation of male labor will eventually take its toll and the surplus will whittle away.
     
    No, it won't. Women can do the jobs they are interested in just fine. (That's why they're interested in them.) What will happen is that the sustaining work of civilization will not get done. The solution is certainly not to belittle traditional women's work as you do.

    Do you believe if men and traditionally male occupations were replaced by women, material standards and economic growth would be maintained? That is quite a radical view.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    Do you believe if men and traditionally male occupations were replaced by women, material standards and economic growth would be maintained? That is quite a radical view.
     
    It depends on which "traditionally Male occupations" you're talking about. Women have proven themselves capable of doing all sorts of productive jobs in the economy, but not all of them.
  252. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    They’re important, but they’re not what distinguishes advanced societies. Pandas don’t have complex societies.
     
    I'm not arguing that maternal care is sufficient for civilization. Only that it is necessary, and men are unjustified in taking sole credit for civilization, which is clearly a team effort.

    It’s not about “credit”. It’s about which factors and circumstances are present or absent across different phenomena.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mill%27s_methods#Method_of_difference

    “If an instance in which the phenomenon under investigation occurs, and an instance in which it does not occur, have every circumstance save one in common, that one occurring only in the former; the circumstance in which alone the two instances differ, is the effect, or cause, or a necessary part of the cause, of the phenomenon. “

    • Replies: @Rosie

    It’s not about “credit”. It’s about which factors and circumstances are present or absent across different phenomena.
     
    This is profoundly dishonest. Credit is precisely what it's about. You believe that civilization belongs to men, and we're just guests at best, servants at worst. Just spare me the bullshit.
  253. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    But this devaluation of male labor will eventually take its toll and the surplus will whittle away.
     
    No, it won't. Women can do the jobs they are interested in just fine. (That's why they're interested in them.) What will happen is that the sustaining work of civilization will not get done. The solution is certainly not to belittle traditional women's work as you do.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    Here at unz, I have encountered some very impressive people, and then some total creeps, like you.

    You keep beating this dead horse, and I have already acknowledged the point time and time again.

    I don't deny or minimize men's contributions; I only object to you doing so to women.

    Now please stop pestering me with your sophistry.
  254. @Honor is Loyalty
    That Vanessa wop is remarkably hot. No wonder an aging moralizing whore hates her so much. Madonna was never really that hot, it was all a very cosmetically synthetic look. But this chic displays real beauty.
    Lmfao.
    Stay mad madoga.
    Wall-K.O.ed roastie is mad the thot is far off the wall.

    Greek, not wop.

  255. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Not for a certain Middle Eastern religion it isn't. After all, the most holy prophet consummated one of his wives when she was but 9. And in some Mid. Eastern nations, the consent is as low as 12.

    ‘Not for a certain Middle Eastern religion it isn’t. After all, the most holy prophet consummated one of his wives when she was but 9. And in some Mid. Eastern nations, the consent is as low as 12.’

    …and if you look up the biographies of various early nineteenth century American politicians, you’ll discover that their mothers must have been wed at thirteen or even twelve, and the ancient Romans considered the ideal age for a bride to be eleven.

    Did you have a point?

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Yes I did, and apparently it went right over your head. Apparently you believe everything you read that cannot be quantified. In general, and as a standard, Americans were never wed at that young an age. Age 15/16 was more in line with the backcountry Appalachia, especially as lifespans weren't as lengthy during that time.
    Also, keep in mind that the most holy and pure faith still maintains 12 as the ideal age for wedding young women, while the rest of the civilized developed and modern world (in 2019) has moved on from that kind of (abomination) thing.

    Also, as Steve has mentioned from time to time, unlike in the rest of the developed modern world, this faith still adheres to cousin marriage (first, second, etc), which may account for bad genes in the offspring.

    And again, even for the ancient world, uh age NINE was unusual. (and official biographies of the most holy one attest that his marriage was actually at age SIX, it was consummated at nine). Do show examples of ancient Greeks and Romans marrying and consummating a marriage with a nine year old bride. Six, or nine, no matter the era, is certainly too young for marriage. That's not marriage, it is pedophilia or child rape.

    And I assume that you would be in agreement with that (that both age 6 and age 9 are too young) as well.

  256. @Rosie

    I do agree with you on that point. But isn’t that a direct result of feminism? Haven’t feminists been the ones who have devalued women’s traditional roles of birthing, mothering, nurturing?
     
    Absolutely not. Men's disrespectful attitudes toward women, on display here at unz, created fertile soil for feminists that otherwise would not have existed.

    Absolutely not. Men’s disrespectful attitudes toward women, on display here at unz, created fertile soil for feminists that otherwise would not have existed.

    But those disrespectful attitudes toward women are a product of the social changes of the last fifty years, especially feminism. Men used to put women on pedestals. Feminists complained. Then men stopped putting women on pedestals. And feminists complained.

    I don’t like disrespectful attitudes toward women either. But such attitudes were almost non-existent before feminism.

    • Disagree: TTSSYF
    • Replies: @Rosie

    I don’t like disrespectful attitudes toward women either. But such attitudes were almost non-existent before feminism.

     

    Lol my achin' sides!

    I'm sorry, doom, but you're talking to a gifted working class girl who was smarter than virtually every man within spitting distance of my childhood, and none of them recognized my talents or my potential.
  257. @Anonymous
    Do you believe if men and traditionally male occupations were replaced by women, material standards and economic growth would be maintained? That is quite a radical view.

    Do you believe if men and traditionally male occupations were replaced by women, material standards and economic growth would be maintained? That is quite a radical view.

    It depends on which “traditionally Male occupations” you’re talking about. Women have proven themselves capable of doing all sorts of productive jobs in the economy, but not all of them.

  258. @dfordoom

    Absolutely not. Men’s disrespectful attitudes toward women, on display here at unz, created fertile soil for feminists that otherwise would not have existed.
     
    But those disrespectful attitudes toward women are a product of the social changes of the last fifty years, especially feminism. Men used to put women on pedestals. Feminists complained. Then men stopped putting women on pedestals. And feminists complained.

    I don't like disrespectful attitudes toward women either. But such attitudes were almost non-existent before feminism.

    I don’t like disrespectful attitudes toward women either. But such attitudes were almost non-existent before feminism.

    Lol my achin’ sides!

    I’m sorry, doom, but you’re talking to a gifted working class girl who was smarter than virtually every man within spitting distance of my childhood, and none of them recognized my talents or my potential.

  259. @Anonymous
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2va3xdM_wfs

    Here at unz, I have encountered some very impressive people, and then some total creeps, like you.

    You keep beating this dead horse, and I have already acknowledged the point time and time again.

    I don’t deny or minimize men’s contributions; I only object to you doing so to women.

    Now please stop pestering me with your sophistry.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Nobody, male or female, is getting prizes or awards here for their purported "contributions". This is purely an intellectual question and exercise. The claim that human social development tends to be characterized by male investment into society does not imply denigrating women or denying their contributions.
  260. @Anonymous
    It's not about "credit". It's about which factors and circumstances are present or absent across different phenomena.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mill%27s_methods#Method_of_difference

    "If an instance in which the phenomenon under investigation occurs, and an instance in which it does not occur, have every circumstance save one in common, that one occurring only in the former; the circumstance in which alone the two instances differ, is the effect, or cause, or a necessary part of the cause, of the phenomenon. "

    It’s not about “credit”. It’s about which factors and circumstances are present or absent across different phenomena.

    This is profoundly dishonest. Credit is precisely what it’s about. You believe that civilization belongs to men, and we’re just guests at best, servants at worst. Just spare me the bullshit.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    It's not about credit. It's an intellectual question.

    Civilization doesn't belong to men. It's owned mainly by a handful of men and their wives and female relations. The infrastructure of civilization is largely built and maintained by men, but these men generally have little to no ownership stakes in civilization and do not receive much credit in terms of status and honor. In general, male electricians, engineers, miners, etc. have less prestige and lower salaries than women white collar workers.
  261. Madonna has been irrelevant since the turn of the century.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    That's a pretty long run since she became a star in 1983 or so.
  262. @Gordon Shumway
    Madonna has been irrelevant since the turn of the century.

    That’s a pretty long run since she became a star in 1983 or so.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Even longer than that, considering that she was the halftime act at the Super Bowl in 2012.
  263. @Calvin Hobbes


    The journalist who wrote this article spent days and hours and months with me and was invited into a world which many people dont get to see, but chose to focus on trivial and superficial matters such as the ethnicity of my stand in or the fabric of my curtains and never ending comments about my age which would never have been mentioned had I been a MAN! Women have a really hard time being the champions of other women even if. they are posing as intellectua
     
    l feminists.
     
    Perhaps Madonna is coming to see that women are, for the most part, as described by Schopenhauer.

    QUOTING FROM A COMMENT BY FLIP IN A PREVIOUS THREAD:

    “The nobler and more perfect a thing is, the later and slower is it in reaching maturity. Man reaches the maturity of his reasoning and mental faculties scarcely before he is eight-and-twenty; woman when she is eighteen; but hers is reason of very narrow limitations. This is why women remain children all their lives, for they always see only what is near at hand, cling to the present, take the appearance of a thing for reality, and prefer trifling matters to the most important. It is by virtue of man’s reasoning powers that he does not live in the present only, like the brute, but observes and ponders over the past and future; and from this spring discretion, care, and that anxiety which we so frequently notice in people. The advantages, as well as the disadvantages, that this entails, make woman, in consequence of her weaker reasoning powers, less of a partaker in them. Moreover, she is intellectually short-sighted, for although her intuitive understanding quickly perceives what is near to her, on the other hand her circle of vision is limited and does not embrace anything that is remote; hence everything that is absent or past, or in the future, affects women in a less degree than men. This is why they have greater inclination for extravagance, which sometimes borders on madness. Women in their hearts think that men are intended to earn money so that they may spend it, if possible during their husband’s lifetime, but at any rate after his death.”

    Schopenhauer “On Women”

    This is why women remain children all their lives, for they always see only what is near at hand, cling to the present, take the appearance of a thing for reality, and prefer trifling matters to the most important.

    Some women remain children all their lives, and a whole lot of men are in that category as well. Even when I was a young girl, I heard so many women say that men are basically little boys in big bodies. It may be true. Their feelings are so easily hurt but they try to hide it.

    I live in a houseful of males and I can see that. Boys need such careful rearing. Girls in general will get over stuff more easily, laugh things off eventually. Boys just simmer inside over some injustice committed against them (sometimes real, sometimes a product of misunderstanding) and go bad or get violent.

    • Replies: @Svigor
    In my experience, boys tend to get over slights, while girls tend to nurse grudges. Same is true of men and women. Factions and group conflict seem to be more female things, too.
  264. @stillCARealist
    Say what?

    I'll ask him. Were you there too? Or is that in a movie that I never saw?

    Haha, no, just a hunch since it was Madonna.

  265. @William Badwhite

    it does make you wonder how many other pornstars he hooked up with and why they never bothered to write their memoirs so they could also cash in.
     
    He had Daniels sign a non-disclosure agreement (which she violated). Maybe there are others that honored their agreement?

    Then they are suckers. Could’ve cashed in.

  266. @Colin Wright
    'Not for a certain Middle Eastern religion it isn’t. After all, the most holy prophet consummated one of his wives when she was but 9. And in some Mid. Eastern nations, the consent is as low as 12.'

    ...and if you look up the biographies of various early nineteenth century American politicians, you'll discover that their mothers must have been wed at thirteen or even twelve, and the ancient Romans considered the ideal age for a bride to be eleven.

    Did you have a point?

    Yes I did, and apparently it went right over your head. Apparently you believe everything you read that cannot be quantified. In general, and as a standard, Americans were never wed at that young an age. Age 15/16 was more in line with the backcountry Appalachia, especially as lifespans weren’t as lengthy during that time.
    Also, keep in mind that the most holy and pure faith still maintains 12 as the ideal age for wedding young women, while the rest of the civilized developed and modern world (in 2019) has moved on from that kind of (abomination) thing.

    Also, as Steve has mentioned from time to time, unlike in the rest of the developed modern world, this faith still adheres to cousin marriage (first, second, etc), which may account for bad genes in the offspring.

    And again, even for the ancient world, uh age NINE was unusual. (and official biographies of the most holy one attest that his marriage was actually at age SIX, it was consummated at nine). Do show examples of ancient Greeks and Romans marrying and consummating a marriage with a nine year old bride. Six, or nine, no matter the era, is certainly too young for marriage. That’s not marriage, it is pedophilia or child rape.

    And I assume that you would be in agreement with that (that both age 6 and age 9 are too young) as well.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    The age of consent under English law was 12 until the 1870s, when it was raised to 13, before being raised to 16 in the 1880s, where it has remained ever since.
    , @FeelTheBern
    I worked with a Laotian dude who was 30 years old...His son was 17...Daughter 16.
    , @FeelTheBern
    I worked with a Laotian dude who was 30...his son was 17...daughter 16.
    , @Svigor
    The most obvious good reason for legalizing early marriage is so that kids who screw around can be forced to marry and raise their offspring (and know as much). It's a bit rich to call that an "abomination" just because we now have reliable means of infanticide.
  267. If you can get people to view ugly as beautiful, then they will except Communism. That’s why Madonna was pushed into the pop-culture…Showing everyone that stupid/childish, raggedy, and smelly are beautiful and desirable. It’s the entire reason why Post-Modernism exists…To get people to except Communism.

    • Replies: @Svigor
    Lol, communism. They're doing a pretty good job using capitalism, if you hadn't noticed.

    The point of the degradation is to demoralize, atomize, culturally annihilate a people so thoroughly that it can't organize enough to do anything remotely like the shoah again. Or the Renaissance. Or the American Revolution. Or much of anything else.

    In fact, communism was a failure; Jews lost prominence, the genocidal period ended, and peoples and borders remained remarkably intact. Capitalism and Liberal Democracy have been much more successful.'Twern't communism or authoritarianism that brought millions of MENAs and SSAs into Europe.

  268. Anonymous[200] • Disclaimer says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Yes I did, and apparently it went right over your head. Apparently you believe everything you read that cannot be quantified. In general, and as a standard, Americans were never wed at that young an age. Age 15/16 was more in line with the backcountry Appalachia, especially as lifespans weren't as lengthy during that time.
    Also, keep in mind that the most holy and pure faith still maintains 12 as the ideal age for wedding young women, while the rest of the civilized developed and modern world (in 2019) has moved on from that kind of (abomination) thing.

    Also, as Steve has mentioned from time to time, unlike in the rest of the developed modern world, this faith still adheres to cousin marriage (first, second, etc), which may account for bad genes in the offspring.

    And again, even for the ancient world, uh age NINE was unusual. (and official biographies of the most holy one attest that his marriage was actually at age SIX, it was consummated at nine). Do show examples of ancient Greeks and Romans marrying and consummating a marriage with a nine year old bride. Six, or nine, no matter the era, is certainly too young for marriage. That's not marriage, it is pedophilia or child rape.

    And I assume that you would be in agreement with that (that both age 6 and age 9 are too young) as well.

    The age of consent under English law was 12 until the 1870s, when it was raised to 13, before being raised to 16 in the 1880s, where it has remained ever since.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Never fear, with all the diversity floating around and changing the UK's demographics, the consent will return to 12, if not 9, to reflect the most holy example of the pure faith.

    Also, I specifically said age nine. And no one can give an example to show that age nine for consent was commonplace, except for the most famous example of the last 1,500 yrs. Can't imagine why.

  269. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie
    Here at unz, I have encountered some very impressive people, and then some total creeps, like you.

    You keep beating this dead horse, and I have already acknowledged the point time and time again.

    I don't deny or minimize men's contributions; I only object to you doing so to women.

    Now please stop pestering me with your sophistry.

    Nobody, male or female, is getting prizes or awards here for their purported “contributions”. This is purely an intellectual question and exercise. The claim that human social development tends to be characterized by male investment into society does not imply denigrating women or denying their contributions.

  270. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    It’s not about “credit”. It’s about which factors and circumstances are present or absent across different phenomena.
     
    This is profoundly dishonest. Credit is precisely what it's about. You believe that civilization belongs to men, and we're just guests at best, servants at worst. Just spare me the bullshit.

    It’s not about credit. It’s an intellectual question.

    Civilization doesn’t belong to men. It’s owned mainly by a handful of men and their wives and female relations. The infrastructure of civilization is largely built and maintained by men, but these men generally have little to no ownership stakes in civilization and do not receive much credit in terms of status and honor. In general, male electricians, engineers, miners, etc. have less prestige and lower salaries than women white collar workers.

  271. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Yes I did, and apparently it went right over your head. Apparently you believe everything you read that cannot be quantified. In general, and as a standard, Americans were never wed at that young an age. Age 15/16 was more in line with the backcountry Appalachia, especially as lifespans weren't as lengthy during that time.
    Also, keep in mind that the most holy and pure faith still maintains 12 as the ideal age for wedding young women, while the rest of the civilized developed and modern world (in 2019) has moved on from that kind of (abomination) thing.

    Also, as Steve has mentioned from time to time, unlike in the rest of the developed modern world, this faith still adheres to cousin marriage (first, second, etc), which may account for bad genes in the offspring.

    And again, even for the ancient world, uh age NINE was unusual. (and official biographies of the most holy one attest that his marriage was actually at age SIX, it was consummated at nine). Do show examples of ancient Greeks and Romans marrying and consummating a marriage with a nine year old bride. Six, or nine, no matter the era, is certainly too young for marriage. That's not marriage, it is pedophilia or child rape.

    And I assume that you would be in agreement with that (that both age 6 and age 9 are too young) as well.

    I worked with a Laotian dude who was 30 years old…His son was 17…Daughter 16.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    And Laos does have some adherents from the most pure and holy faith. Also, it should be noticed the correlation between first world economies (of which Laos isn't one) and higher IQ. The higher the IQ, the later the person marries (and/or begets offspring).
  272. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Yes I did, and apparently it went right over your head. Apparently you believe everything you read that cannot be quantified. In general, and as a standard, Americans were never wed at that young an age. Age 15/16 was more in line with the backcountry Appalachia, especially as lifespans weren't as lengthy during that time.
    Also, keep in mind that the most holy and pure faith still maintains 12 as the ideal age for wedding young women, while the rest of the civilized developed and modern world (in 2019) has moved on from that kind of (abomination) thing.

    Also, as Steve has mentioned from time to time, unlike in the rest of the developed modern world, this faith still adheres to cousin marriage (first, second, etc), which may account for bad genes in the offspring.

    And again, even for the ancient world, uh age NINE was unusual. (and official biographies of the most holy one attest that his marriage was actually at age SIX, it was consummated at nine). Do show examples of ancient Greeks and Romans marrying and consummating a marriage with a nine year old bride. Six, or nine, no matter the era, is certainly too young for marriage. That's not marriage, it is pedophilia or child rape.

    And I assume that you would be in agreement with that (that both age 6 and age 9 are too young) as well.

    I worked with a Laotian dude who was 30…his son was 17…daughter 16.

  273. @FeelTheBern
    I worked with a Laotian dude who was 30 years old...His son was 17...Daughter 16.

    And Laos does have some adherents from the most pure and holy faith. Also, it should be noticed the correlation between first world economies (of which Laos isn’t one) and higher IQ. The higher the IQ, the later the person marries (and/or begets offspring).

  274. @Anonymous
    The age of consent under English law was 12 until the 1870s, when it was raised to 13, before being raised to 16 in the 1880s, where it has remained ever since.

    Never fear, with all the diversity floating around and changing the UK’s demographics, the consent will return to 12, if not 9, to reflect the most holy example of the pure faith.

    Also, I specifically said age nine. And no one can give an example to show that age nine for consent was commonplace, except for the most famous example of the last 1,500 yrs. Can’t imagine why.

    • Replies: @Svigor
    I've never seen evidence that 9 was or is commonplace in Islam. I seem to recall something similar in the Jews' holy books, though.
  275. @Anonymous
    Female companionship, maternal love and care, are uniquely valuable and simply cannot be compared with what men do, which is qualitatively different. However, they are not unique to civilization or advanced societies. If anything, they're diminished with the advance and decadence of society. They are present in simpler societies, and among animals as well.

    The "toiling" in homemaking tasks is done out of a division of labor, and results from comparative advantage, rather than absolute advantage. In general, men have an absolute advantage not just in traditional "men's work" such as farming, hunting, tinkering, laboring, etc., but also in household tasks i.e. traditionally "women's work" such as cooking and cleaning. Men make the best chefs, have greater strength to scrub floors and clean, etc. But men also have a greater opportunity cost: if they're inside cooking and scrubbing, they're not harvesting crops and hauling in meat. While women generally can't farm and hunt as well, so their opportunity cost is much less if they stick to cooking and cleaning inside. Thus it's better for the man to farm and hunt and the woman to provide cooking, cleaning, and general homemaking services, and for them to share i.e. trade the greater proceeds with each other. This is the comparative advantage theory of trade applied to the married household.

    Stop making Reason!

  276. Madonna appealed to loose idiot young women…And therefor men followed…therefor her wild popularity/wealth. Christie Brinkley just appealed to men…and Billy Joel.

  277. You cant fix (((society)))
    And its endless need to diminish,
    Disparage or degrade that which they know is good.

    She’s not wrong.

  278. @FeelTheBern
    If you can get people to view ugly as beautiful, then they will except Communism. That's why Madonna was pushed into the pop-culture...Showing everyone that stupid/childish, raggedy, and smelly are beautiful and desirable. It's the entire reason why Post-Modernism exists...To get people to except Communism.

    Lol, communism. They’re doing a pretty good job using capitalism, if you hadn’t noticed.

    The point of the degradation is to demoralize, atomize, culturally annihilate a people so thoroughly that it can’t organize enough to do anything remotely like the shoah again. Or the Renaissance. Or the American Revolution. Or much of anything else.

    In fact, communism was a failure; Jews lost prominence, the genocidal period ended, and peoples and borders remained remarkably intact. Capitalism and Liberal Democracy have been much more successful.’Twern’t communism or authoritarianism that brought millions of MENAs and SSAs into Europe.

  279. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Yes I did, and apparently it went right over your head. Apparently you believe everything you read that cannot be quantified. In general, and as a standard, Americans were never wed at that young an age. Age 15/16 was more in line with the backcountry Appalachia, especially as lifespans weren't as lengthy during that time.
    Also, keep in mind that the most holy and pure faith still maintains 12 as the ideal age for wedding young women, while the rest of the civilized developed and modern world (in 2019) has moved on from that kind of (abomination) thing.

    Also, as Steve has mentioned from time to time, unlike in the rest of the developed modern world, this faith still adheres to cousin marriage (first, second, etc), which may account for bad genes in the offspring.

    And again, even for the ancient world, uh age NINE was unusual. (and official biographies of the most holy one attest that his marriage was actually at age SIX, it was consummated at nine). Do show examples of ancient Greeks and Romans marrying and consummating a marriage with a nine year old bride. Six, or nine, no matter the era, is certainly too young for marriage. That's not marriage, it is pedophilia or child rape.

    And I assume that you would be in agreement with that (that both age 6 and age 9 are too young) as well.

    The most obvious good reason for legalizing early marriage is so that kids who screw around can be forced to marry and raise their offspring (and know as much). It’s a bit rich to call that an “abomination” just because we now have reliable means of infanticide.

  280. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Never fear, with all the diversity floating around and changing the UK's demographics, the consent will return to 12, if not 9, to reflect the most holy example of the pure faith.

    Also, I specifically said age nine. And no one can give an example to show that age nine for consent was commonplace, except for the most famous example of the last 1,500 yrs. Can't imagine why.

    I’ve never seen evidence that 9 was or is commonplace in Islam. I seem to recall something similar in the Jews’ holy books, though.

  281. @Liza

    This is why women remain children all their lives, for they always see only what is near at hand, cling to the present, take the appearance of a thing for reality, and prefer trifling matters to the most important.
     
    Some women remain children all their lives, and a whole lot of men are in that category as well. Even when I was a young girl, I heard so many women say that men are basically little boys in big bodies. It may be true. Their feelings are so easily hurt but they try to hide it.

    I live in a houseful of males and I can see that. Boys need such careful rearing. Girls in general will get over stuff more easily, laugh things off eventually. Boys just simmer inside over some injustice committed against them (sometimes real, sometimes a product of misunderstanding) and go bad or get violent.

    In my experience, boys tend to get over slights, while girls tend to nurse grudges. Same is true of men and women. Factions and group conflict seem to be more female things, too.

    • Replies: @Liza
    @Svigor. I guess this hinges, then, on the definition of "get[ting] over" slights. Or situations much worse than slights. There's smoothing things over and then there's real resolution.
  282. @Steve Sailer
    That's a pretty long run since she became a star in 1983 or so.

    Even longer than that, considering that she was the halftime act at the Super Bowl in 2012.

  283. @Svigor
    In my experience, boys tend to get over slights, while girls tend to nurse grudges. Same is true of men and women. Factions and group conflict seem to be more female things, too.

    . I guess this hinges, then, on the definition of “get[ting] over” slights. Or situations much worse than slights. There’s smoothing things over and then there’s real resolution.

  284. @Daniel H
    >>The journalist who wrote this article spent days and hours and months with me and was invited into a world which many people don't get to see,

    Yeah, rub it into our ordinary faces Madge. How fortunate once must be to wallow a bit in your presence.

    ‘The journalist who wrote this article spent days and hours and months with me and was invited into a world which many people don’t get to see,

    That set me off wondering how much I’d want to spend time with Madonna.

    Offhand — $500 a day? Yeah — I think about that. Less than I’d want to associate with Obandiyag. More than for Corvinus.

    • Replies: @Bubba
    LOL!!!!!
  285. @FeelTheBern
    Yes...the patriarchy does have nice titties.

    Nice observation! I totally agree with you.

  286. @Colin Wright
    'The journalist who wrote this article spent days and hours and months with me and was invited into a world which many people don’t get to see,

    That set me off wondering how much I'd want to spend time with Madonna.

    Offhand -- $500 a day? Yeah -- I think about that. Less than I'd want to associate with Obandiyag. More than for Corvinus.

    LOL!!!!!

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