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Madison City Council Votes Damnatio Memoriae for POWs
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It’s a tombstone for 140 POWs, people

From State Journal:

Madison City Council overturns Confederate monument decision, supports removal
LOGAN WROGE [email protected] 15 hrs ago

The Madison City Council on Tuesday backed the removal of a Confederate monument in Forest Hill Cemetery that lists the names of about 140 Confederate soldiers buried there.

The Madison City Council backed the removal of a Confederate monument in Forest Hill Cemetery Tuesday after it overrode a commission decision that called for the monument to remain.

Council members voted 16-2 to overturn the Landmarks Commission’s ruling that barred the removal of a large, stone monument that lists the names of about 140 prisoners-of-war buried in a section of the cemetery known as Confederate Rest.

“You don’t have discussion in a cemetery. You have reflection, and you have memories, and this (monument) brings up memories that are not so pleasant in our history,” said Council Vice President Sheri Carter.

Alds. Paul Skidmore and Mike Verveer voted against overturning the decision. Alds. Rebecca Kemble and Steve King were absent.

In April, the City Council voted to remove the monument. But since Forest Hill Cemetery, 1 Speedway Road, is a designated landmark, the Landmarks Commission needed to weigh in on whether the removal was appropriate.

… The monument was installed in 1906 and funded by the Daughters of the Confederacy, a group some have argued promotes a false narrative about the Civil War that glorifies the Confederate cause. But others have argued that the monument simply acts as a grave marker for weathering headstones in the Confederate Rest.

You let 140 POWs die in your POW camp, Madisonians, it’s not too much to ask that a simple marker listing the dead POWs names be allowed to not be obliterated.

What about the dead bodies of the 140 POWs who died for the False Narrative of Southern secession? Can you allow their mortal remains to pollute the moral purity of your cemetery? Maybe the POWs should be dug up and their dust scattered to the winds?

We are often reminded these days to never punch Down and always Punch up. But that raises the question of: Who is Down and who is Up?

The answer, of course, is that those who are getting punched must be Up. The Madison city council wouldn’t be punching dead POWs if they were Down, so these dead POWs are Up, and therefore deserve to be punched.

 
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  1. You know, every freaking stone in every cemetery brings up memories and realities that are “not so pleasant” (like, “my loved one is permanently gone”).

    • Agree: Desiderius
    • Replies: @El Dato
    @J.Ross

    Not for permarevolters.

    They think "my enemies will soon be underneath there".

  2. “You let 140 POWs die in your POW camp, Madisonians ….”

    Some might argue that they didn’t simply let the POWs die, rather they aided and abetted a brutal internment tantamount to a crime against humanity. Madison needs this monument to help expiate the shame of Madisonians atrocity against these poor, albeit misguided, creatures.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
    • Replies: @BenKenobi
    @The Alarmist

    Remember the 140!

    Doesn't have quite the same ring...

    , @Olorin
    @The Alarmist

    At Camp Randall, iirc. Wonder if they'll tear down those walls, remembering what F**king White Males the GAR was?

    I remember Donna Shalala's taking major umbrage about the football war cry of "fuck 'em, Bucky" back in the, what, '90s?

    This was around the time she had the ancient beloved pugnacious badger mascot declared Intellectual Property of the UW System.

    , @Delmas
    @The Alarmist

    WHO were "...misguided creatures"?? History has played out in the United States to manifest that it certainly was not the Confederates who were misguided. Spare me your ludicrous Yankee compassion!

  3. Destroying monuments to the dead, what a way to win friends and influence people lefties.

  4. Steve,

    To be expected from the hometown of the University of Wisconsin, the mid-Western redoubt of NYC and sundry other leftist radicals.

    Of course there are always exceptions which prove the rule, one example being Kevin MacDonald.

    • Replies: @M_Young
    @Dan Hayes

    Although probably the best history department, as far as grad school goes, in the country.

    Replies: @F0337, @Paleo Liberal

  5. American are now like Stone Age tribesmen finding the remains of an airplane that crashed in the jungle. “What is this shiny thing?” “I don’t like it. It doesn’t taste good.” “I can sleep in here if I move those skeletons.”

    • LOL: Kylie, Mr. Rational
  6. James Madison owned over 100 slaves. Therefore the city council should vote on a referendum to change the city’s name to Ulyanov.

    • Agree: Steve in Greensboro
    • LOL: bomag
    • Replies: @Alden
    @Anonymous

    How about Leninville?

    , @Dieter Kief
    @Anonymous

    Would you be offended if I wrote that I laughed out loud? (I did).

  7. Steve, thank you, perfect analysis, as usual.

    Decisions like this are what happen when men no longer get involoved in politics. Women getting elected to office (and I’d love to see the breakdown of that council, by gender) have the same effect as girls as altar boys and parish council members: men and boys begin staying on the sidelines.

    • Replies: @bomag
    @Chris from Gresham

    ...and the men who run for these new, feminized, offices generally don't exhibit too much testosterone.

  8. Here’s a photo of the council members. Half of them appear to be white men.

    https://www.cityofmadison.com/Council/councilMembers/alders.cfm

    • Replies: @Alden
    @Anonymous

    It’s a college town what can one expect?

    I’ve told liberal White men that the reason they didn’t get the job is because they are White men.

    And they start parroting the standard garbage about White privilege. Liberal White men are idiots. At least liberal White women can cling to the myth that they are included in affirmative action.

    The liberal men are devoted to the liberal media. They’ve read and heard denunciations of White men all their lives. To the gulag with you.

    , @Jenner Ickham Errican
    @Anonymous

    Imagine the racket when Larry Palm and Maurice Cheeks get together.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Anonymous

    Which ones represent Pinckney Street?


    https://davyandmatty.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/img_0079.jpg

    https://davyandmatty.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/img_0074.jpg

    Replies: @Olorin

  9. Never underestimate the extremes people will go to in hysterias. You joke about digging up the bodies of the Confederate soldiers, Steve, but this has happened before. When the US entered WWI, idiots dug up the remains of the Hessians who died in the Battle of Trenton and dumped them in the Delaware River.

    • Replies: @Diversity Heretic
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    In the French Revolution, revolutionnaries disenterred the remains of the French kings and queens buried in the church at St. Denis. These people are the spiritual heirs of the French Revolution.

    Replies: @J.Ross

    , @Pericles
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    The Commies in power in Spain are apparently going to dig up Franco.

    Replies: @Rosamond Vincy

    , @Romanian
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    The republicans in Civil War Spain dug up nuns and priests.

    Also, I believe Nathan Bedford Forrest was dug up recently, but by the city. Or was it just being discussed?

    Replies: @Rosamond Vincy

    , @njguy73
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    Maybe shouldn't bury people anymore. Just leave their bodies around in case we want to deface them later.

    , @Chris Mallory
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    Confederates were Americans defending their homes against the Yankee invaders. Hessians were German mercenary trash who should have been left to the scavengers. Buzzards got to eat, same as worms.

    Replies: @Samuel Skinner

  10. There were suggestions to disenterre the bodies of Nathan Bedford Forrest and his wife in Memphis, Tennessee, so the proposition that the 140 bodies need to be removed is not far-fetched. How long until the remains of the soldiers buried in Custer National Cemetery at Little Bighorn Battlefield National Monument are slated for removal?

    White Americans are being both symbolically and literally displaced and dispossessed from the country their ancestors built.

    • Replies: @istevefan
    @Diversity Heretic


    White Americans are being both symbolically and literally displaced and dispossessed from the country their ancestors built.
     
    What you write is true. But eventually if White Americans and other Whites in the Euro world continue to allow this to happen, you really can't sympathize with them. No one is holding a gun to their collective heads. In fact in most Euro nations, USA included, a majority of the whites probably do not want what is happening to them to happen. Yet they are cowered into submission, not by force of arms, but buy a vocal, unarmed minority who use words. Words!

    I understand the consequences of social ostracism, but one would hope that the descendants of the great peoples of Europe would require more than words to take them down.

    Replies: @F0337

    , @Joe Schmoe
    @Diversity Heretic

    I am starting to wonder if they want to erase the past so that they can repeat it.

    It is far easier to deny something after you have destroyed the records of it.

  11. istevefan says:

    “You don’t have discussion in a cemetery. You have reflection, and you have memories, and this (monument) brings up memories that are not so pleasant in our history,” said Council Vice President Sheri Carter.

    Yes, like the memories of how your ancestors might have committed war crimes against POWs in their charge.

  12. I’m usually with Steve with pretty much everything he says, but this was a memorial to soldiers who fought against the United States and its government. Why exactly should it exist in the first place??? Once you point out the Benedict Arnold monument anywhere in the United States, please be sure to give me your answer.

    • Replies: @Daniel H
    @PaceLaw

    >>I’m usually with Steve with pretty much everything he says, but this was a memorial to soldiers who fought against the United States and its government.

    Why do you privilege the United States government? Furthermore, consider that various Indian nations waged war against the United States government for over 100 years, should the resting places of their warriors be abhorred?

    Replies: @PaceLaw

    , @Tom-in-VA
    @PaceLaw

    1. Because they are still Americans.
    2. Because they died while in Union custody.
    3. Because civilized people treat even enemy dead with respect.
    4. Because barbarians want to erase our history, our culture, and our people, and we can’t let them.

    Replies: @PaceLaw, @Veracitor, @njguy73, @John Gruskos

    , @Diversity Heretic
    @PaceLaw

    They did not fight against the United States government, which invaded the South. They fought for the right to secede from a government that no longer served their best interests, rather similarly to the colonists who seceded from the United Kingdom in 1776. The Union victory replaced the voluntary association of states with an empire imposing its will on a defeated people and we live with the consequences of that to this day.

    The Johnny Rebs who lie in that cemetery were better Americans than the real traitors who propose to wipe out the memory of the CSA and its supporters.

    Replies: @PaceLaw, @Reg Cæsar, @Corvinus

    , @Ibound1
    @PaceLaw

    Councilman Samba Baldeh, who comes from Choya, Gambia must have been overcome with similar jingoistic patriotism, thinking of our Union soldiers.

    , @J.Ross
    @PaceLaw

    When Edith Hamilton was talking about how ancient Greece was foundational to Western values, she mentioned a Greek who, during a war, would fight during the day and then attend a civilized dinner with his enemy in the evening. At Crimea there would be soirees with well-conducted guests from both sides (the Italians would bring opera singers!). And there is the Christmas football game in WWI. We Westerners fight an enemy, not a demon, stopping when appropriate, and considering ourselves roughly equal; we do not, like the Semite, feud with a tribe, spurning every possible connection (even though, since both tribes are doing so, this has the effect of making them comically similar), and prolonging the war through every truce, peace, and apparent victory. We honor the dead in the expectation that our dead will be honored; people outside our tradition deliberately dishonor the dead, imagining that their current strength will never diminish.

    Replies: @PaceLaw

    , @istevefan
    @PaceLaw


    Once you point out the Benedict Arnold monument anywhere in the United States, please be sure to give me your answer.
     
    Ask and ye shall receive.

    The Boot Monument is an American Revolutionary War memorial located in Saratoga National Historical Park, New York. It commemorates Major General Benedict Arnold's service at the Battles of Saratoga in the Continental Army, but contrives not to name him.
     
    Also, there is a obelisk memorial at Saratoga which indirectly honors Arnold.


    . The park preserves a number of the buildings in the area and contains a variety of monuments.[97] The Saratoga Monument obelisk has four niches, three of which hold statues of American commanders: Gates and Schuyler and of Colonel Daniel Morgan. The fourth niche, where Arnold's statue would go, is empty.[98] A more dramatic memorial to Arnold's heroism, that does not name him, is the Boot Monument. Donated by Civil War General John Watts de Peyster, it shows a boot with spurs and the stars of a major general. It stands at the spot where Arnold was shot on October 7 charging Breymann's redoubt and is dedicated to "the most brilliant soldier of the Continental Army".

     

    Though Arnold is not directly mentioned, any visitor to these monuments with an IQ of 90 or better would understand that Arnold was being referenced. I really like how they did this. On the one hand Arnold was a traitor. But on the other he was a hero. So instead of erasing him completely from history and replacing him with someone else, they just left his space blank which causes the visitor to question and then learn about Arnold.

    If today's SJWs had been in charge of that monument, they would have erased Arnold and replaced him with a minority with a made-up account of what took place.

    Replies: @PaceLaw

    , @istevefan
    @PaceLaw

    Do people realize there are German WW2 cemeteries in Russia? I've long known about German cemeteries in France and Western Europe. But Russia? The Germans were very brutal towards Slavs, and the Slavs suffered greatly during WW2. Yet there are German cemeteries in Russia that continue to add new graves as old remains are discovered.

    If the Russians can allow the Germans to be buried in a dignified manner, why can't the residents of Madison do the same for the Confederates?

    Replies: @PaceLaw, @Dan Hayes, @anonymous, @Tex, @International Jew, @Reg Cæsar

    , @M_Young
    @PaceLaw

    Sectional reconciliation was a very important thing...arguably it was necessary for the US to become a world power. North and South agreeing to bind up the wounds. I'm old enough to remember when that was taught in school (though as a Catholic school kid we were probably a decade behind the times). Time was when 'Dixie' was considered a patriotic song'.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vISPgbosZUw

    , @Big Bill
    @PaceLaw


    I’m usually with Steve with pretty much everything he says, but this was a memorial to soldiers who fought against the United States and its government. Why exactly should it exist in the first place???
     
    It is a tombstone. In Western civilization we erect them over the graves of our beloved who died. Saint or sinner, mass murderer or statesman, gangster or priest. Even babies born dead are given tombstones.

    Some tombstones, like the Madison tombstone, are quite simple and merely list the names of the dead. Others are larger and more elaborate.

    I am curious. What do people in your country do to remember the dead? Anything?

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    , @vinteuil
    @PaceLaw

    In the Antigone of Sophocles, Creon, King of Thebes, refuses burial rights to Polyneices, who had rebelled against the city and been killed leading an army of Argives against it. This refusal to give due respect to the dead - even to a dead traitor - offends the Gods.

    Thebes is morally polluted. Disaster ensues for all concerned.

    The city of Madison is violating a foundational value of Western civilization.

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal, @njguy73, @Olorin, @Anonymous, @bomag

    , @anonymous
    @PaceLaw

    "Once you point out the Benedict Arnold monument anywhere in the United States, please be sure to give me your answer."

    Ah, far-left commie snark. There're at least three to Arnold: Boot, Saratoga, Valcour.

    These things are Bills of Attainder, legislative adjudications of guilt. The Confederates were pardoned, plus the courts said they were right post-War, but the issue was moot. Plus this is part of a wide attack on monuments to any great figures of the US past by the far-left kulturkampf.


    https://www.neatorama.com/2014/01/01/Americas-Monument-to-Its-Most-Infamous-Traitor-Benedict-Arnold/

  13. OT As you would already know if you spent every waking hour on Chicagoan pizza-related map handkerchief analysis fora, the “Russia investigation” is transparently fake, and its establishment violated basic rules and norms.
    https://thehill.com/hilltv/rising/409817-russia-collusion-bombshell-dnc-lawyers-met-with-fbi-on-dossier-before
    The Hill is not a pro-Trump rag.

  14. Will they dig up the bodies too? The French revolutionaries did that in St Denis cathedral. That’s where the French royals were buried. They broke into the stone and marble coffins and had a good old time threwing the bones around.

  15. @NJ Transit Commuter
    Never underestimate the extremes people will go to in hysterias. You joke about digging up the bodies of the Confederate soldiers, Steve, but this has happened before. When the US entered WWI, idiots dug up the remains of the Hessians who died in the Battle of Trenton and dumped them in the Delaware River.

    Replies: @Diversity Heretic, @Pericles, @Romanian, @njguy73, @Chris Mallory

    In the French Revolution, revolutionnaries disenterred the remains of the French kings and queens buried in the church at St. Denis. These people are the spiritual heirs of the French Revolution.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @Diversity Heretic

    The Reds in the Spanish Civil War also had the disgusting habit of using corpse propaganda, they would mock Catholic beliefs by digging up nuns and setting them upright on the sidewalk by churches. Catholics believe that the body of a truly saintly person will sometimes not decay as a miraculous proof of its former user's spiritual refinement.
    And, y'know, it's a dead body. It becomes increasingly tempting to call these folks crazy.
    It's a kind of deep pettiness, a pathetic strength, like abusing hostages. It would cost nothing to show some respect and instead they have to grind the dust into the eyes of the conquered.

    Replies: @Big Bill

  16. What about the dead bodies of the 140 POWs who died for the False Narrative of Southern secession? Can you allow their mortal remains to pollute the moral purity of your cemetery? Maybe the POWs should be dug up and their dust scattered to the winds?

    I appreciate you going all Dean Rusk to Charles de Gaulle with that quote. When, in the 1960s, de Gaulle ordered all American troops out of France, Rusk purportedly asked de Gaulle “Does your order include the bodies of American soldiers in France’s cemeteries?”

  17. Ron, you broke Read More. It’s showing up on every post, even when not used.

    Also, you broke bolding, It’s not displaying for me.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @Anon

    Ron, feel free to ignore anybody who refuses to pick a damn name, but at the same time wants eveything else in the world to work the way it's supposed to.

  18. @Anonymous
    Here's a photo of the council members. Half of them appear to be white men.

    https://www.cityofmadison.com/Council/councilMembers/alders.cfm

    Replies: @Alden, @Jenner Ickham Errican, @Reg Cæsar

    It’s a college town what can one expect?

    I’ve told liberal White men that the reason they didn’t get the job is because they are White men.

    And they start parroting the standard garbage about White privilege. Liberal White men are idiots. At least liberal White women can cling to the myth that they are included in affirmative action.

    The liberal men are devoted to the liberal media. They’ve read and heard denunciations of White men all their lives. To the gulag with you.

  19. Anon[568] • Disclaimer says:

    If the individual tombstones have the names, then … nasty, but whatever. If the monument is the only record, that is very nasty.

    If nothing else, for researchers, having a single place to see the names is handy. And seriously, how many people even go the place and “reflect” on the Civil War? Obviously it’s a case of affirmatively seeking out Confederate-realated stuff to vandalize, where before nobody even knew it existed.

  20. @Anonymous
    James Madison owned over 100 slaves. Therefore the city council should vote on a referendum to change the city's name to Ulyanov.

    Replies: @Alden, @Dieter Kief

    How about Leninville?

  21. @PaceLaw
    I’m usually with Steve with pretty much everything he says, but this was a memorial to soldiers who fought against the United States and its government. Why exactly should it exist in the first place??? Once you point out the Benedict Arnold monument anywhere in the United States, please be sure to give me your answer.

    Replies: @Daniel H, @Tom-in-VA, @Diversity Heretic, @Ibound1, @J.Ross, @istevefan, @istevefan, @M_Young, @Big Bill, @vinteuil, @anonymous

    >>I’m usually with Steve with pretty much everything he says, but this was a memorial to soldiers who fought against the United States and its government.

    Why do you privilege the United States government? Furthermore, consider that various Indian nations waged war against the United States government for over 100 years, should the resting places of their warriors be abhorred?

    • Replies: @PaceLaw
    @Daniel H

    I’m sorry friend, but remember Fort Sumter? The renegade Confederate States of America declared war on the United States of America, not the other way around. Facts.

    Replies: @Pericles, @Samuel Skinner, @pyrrhus

  22. @PaceLaw
    I’m usually with Steve with pretty much everything he says, but this was a memorial to soldiers who fought against the United States and its government. Why exactly should it exist in the first place??? Once you point out the Benedict Arnold monument anywhere in the United States, please be sure to give me your answer.

    Replies: @Daniel H, @Tom-in-VA, @Diversity Heretic, @Ibound1, @J.Ross, @istevefan, @istevefan, @M_Young, @Big Bill, @vinteuil, @anonymous

    1. Because they are still Americans.
    2. Because they died while in Union custody.
    3. Because civilized people treat even enemy dead with respect.
    4. Because barbarians want to erase our history, our culture, and our people, and we can’t let them.

    • Agree: Buzz Mohawk, RVBlake
    • Replies: @PaceLaw
    @Tom-in-VA

    1. “Americans” who rose up to destroy the Union of the United States? You can’t be serious!
    2. Why does that matter? Do we need memorials to German and Japanese POWs who died in the custody of the United States during WWII wartime?
    3. Not sure of what historical basis of where you’re coming from my friend. Victors usually have no regard for the enemy dead.
    4. ?

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Veracitor, @Anonymous, @Federalist

    , @Veracitor
    @Tom-in-VA

    Yeah, and also. . .

    Because of Appomattox. As General Grant said after Lee surrendered with all his men and Grant released them all on parole not to thereafter bear arms against the Union, "The Confederates were now our countrymen, and we did not want to exult over their downfall."

    Desecrating the graves of your countrymen is a crime and a shameful policy. If those who personally suffered the incidents of war at the living hands of those Confederate soldiers could subordinate their justifiable thirst for revenge to their desire for honorable reconciliation, we who are their descendants and heirs can certainly respect their decision a century and a half later. Anyone who says otherwise is a barbarian and lacks all honor.

    Replies: @F0337, @njguy73, @Anonymous

    , @njguy73
    @Tom-in-VA


    Because civilized people treat even enemy dead with respect.
     
    What does that have to do with us?
    , @John Gruskos
    @Tom-in-VA

    Exactly.

  23. @PaceLaw
    I’m usually with Steve with pretty much everything he says, but this was a memorial to soldiers who fought against the United States and its government. Why exactly should it exist in the first place??? Once you point out the Benedict Arnold monument anywhere in the United States, please be sure to give me your answer.

    Replies: @Daniel H, @Tom-in-VA, @Diversity Heretic, @Ibound1, @J.Ross, @istevefan, @istevefan, @M_Young, @Big Bill, @vinteuil, @anonymous

    They did not fight against the United States government, which invaded the South. They fought for the right to secede from a government that no longer served their best interests, rather similarly to the colonists who seceded from the United Kingdom in 1776. The Union victory replaced the voluntary association of states with an empire imposing its will on a defeated people and we live with the consequences of that to this day.

    The Johnny Rebs who lie in that cemetery were better Americans than the real traitors who propose to wipe out the memory of the CSA and its supporters.

    • Replies: @PaceLaw
    @Diversity Heretic

    So my friend, what do you say about Antifa? They position themselves to be the Confederates of yesteryear. They are against the official government of United States and are willing to take violent action against it. Would you be willing to support Antifa monuments in 50 to 100 years?

    Replies: @Pericles, @fnn, @Samuel Skinner, @roo_ster

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Diversity Heretic


    They fought for the right to secede from a government that no longer served their best interests...
     
    ...which they saw as diversity. The biggest difference between Southerners and other white Americans is their intense love of the Negro, and their inability to live without him close by. Vermont and Idaho's total whiteness is a bug, not a feature.

    The Union victory replaced the voluntary association of states...
     
    Someone has never heard of the Whisky Rebellion, or, for that matter, the Fugitive Slave Acts, which allowed states to be invaded by outsiders from other states. Sovereignty for me, not for thee.

    If you wanted to keep your beloved Africans at home-- your home-- you could have built a Berlin Wall along the Ohio and Potomac. You'd be in good company.


    https://i.pinimg.com/474x/e6/c8/e5/e6c8e55479e723580e6fe907e7f1ae8d--berlin-heute-berlin-wall.jpg

    Replies: @PaceLaw, @Samuel Skinner

    , @Corvinus
    @Diversity Heretic

    "They did not fight against the United States government, which invaded the South."

    There was no "invasion". Fort Sumter was attacked, and the federal government responded accordingly. Why didn't Southerners just have picked their own damn cotton?

    "They fought for the right to secede from a government that no longer served their best interests, rather similarly to the colonists who seceded from the United Kingdom in 1776."

    You are conveniently forgetting that the plantation class did not serve the interests of all people in the South.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Unionist

    "The Union victory replaced the voluntary association of states with an empire imposing its will on a defeated people and we live with the consequences of that to this day."

    Actually, the Civil War saved our nation, and ultimately we are better off for it.

    "The Johnny Rebs who lie in that cemetery were better Americans than the real traitors who propose to wipe out the memory of the CSA and its supporters."

    All your lies are belong to us.

    Replies: @Samuel Skinner

  24. @Anon
    Ron, you broke Read More. It's showing up on every post, even when not used.

    Also, you broke bolding, It's not displaying for me.

    Replies: @J.Ross

    Ron, feel free to ignore anybody who refuses to pick a damn name, but at the same time wants eveything else in the world to work the way it’s supposed to.

  25. @Anonymous
    James Madison owned over 100 slaves. Therefore the city council should vote on a referendum to change the city's name to Ulyanov.

    Replies: @Alden, @Dieter Kief

    Would you be offended if I wrote that I laughed out loud? (I did).

  26. @PaceLaw
    I’m usually with Steve with pretty much everything he says, but this was a memorial to soldiers who fought against the United States and its government. Why exactly should it exist in the first place??? Once you point out the Benedict Arnold monument anywhere in the United States, please be sure to give me your answer.

    Replies: @Daniel H, @Tom-in-VA, @Diversity Heretic, @Ibound1, @J.Ross, @istevefan, @istevefan, @M_Young, @Big Bill, @vinteuil, @anonymous

    Councilman Samba Baldeh, who comes from Choya, Gambia must have been overcome with similar jingoistic patriotism, thinking of our Union soldiers.

  27. @Diversity Heretic
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    In the French Revolution, revolutionnaries disenterred the remains of the French kings and queens buried in the church at St. Denis. These people are the spiritual heirs of the French Revolution.

    Replies: @J.Ross

    The Reds in the Spanish Civil War also had the disgusting habit of using corpse propaganda, they would mock Catholic beliefs by digging up nuns and setting them upright on the sidewalk by churches. Catholics believe that the body of a truly saintly person will sometimes not decay as a miraculous proof of its former user’s spiritual refinement.
    And, y’know, it’s a dead body. It becomes increasingly tempting to call these folks crazy.
    It’s a kind of deep pettiness, a pathetic strength, like abusing hostages. It would cost nothing to show some respect and instead they have to grind the dust into the eyes of the conquered.

    • Replies: @Big Bill
    @J.Ross

    Speaking of Spanish Civil War Reds, Madison has a memorial to the commies of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade. "It stands in James Madison Park — just a few feet from the historic Gates of Heaven synagogue."

    As the story explains, Madison Jews (complete with Klezmer band!) and Commies rallied at the memorial when it was graffitied a year ago.

    The article is a must-read. Compare and contrast:

    https://madison.com/ct/opinion/column/john_nichols/when-swastikas-appear-madison-cries-they-shall-not-pass/article_7c27fc4c-4d08-5fc6-be9c-a5e47104d465.html

    Replies: @Olorin, @J.Ross

  28. PUBLIC PURITY***!

    Where are the theologists if you’d need them? – All dead?
    This has so much to do with a wrong way of secularisation. – Since sin has been removed, and the public does not understand what that means in respect to the human nature, the absolutely crazy attempt can be undertaken, to h e a l the past: Make it more appropriate to the childish mindset, which now grows all over the western world: The Coddling (=purifing, dk) of the American Mind (George Lukianoff and Jonathan Haidt).

    (*** Where’s Jonathan Franzen, if you need him? Playing with television?)

  29. @PaceLaw
    I’m usually with Steve with pretty much everything he says, but this was a memorial to soldiers who fought against the United States and its government. Why exactly should it exist in the first place??? Once you point out the Benedict Arnold monument anywhere in the United States, please be sure to give me your answer.

    Replies: @Daniel H, @Tom-in-VA, @Diversity Heretic, @Ibound1, @J.Ross, @istevefan, @istevefan, @M_Young, @Big Bill, @vinteuil, @anonymous

    When Edith Hamilton was talking about how ancient Greece was foundational to Western values, she mentioned a Greek who, during a war, would fight during the day and then attend a civilized dinner with his enemy in the evening. At Crimea there would be soirees with well-conducted guests from both sides (the Italians would bring opera singers!). And there is the Christmas football game in WWI. We Westerners fight an enemy, not a demon, stopping when appropriate, and considering ourselves roughly equal; we do not, like the Semite, feud with a tribe, spurning every possible connection (even though, since both tribes are doing so, this has the effect of making them comically similar), and prolonging the war through every truce, peace, and apparent victory. We honor the dead in the expectation that our dead will be honored; people outside our tradition deliberately dishonor the dead, imagining that their current strength will never diminish.

    • Replies: @PaceLaw
    @J.Ross

    Somehow I do not believe that Isis, Al Queda or our other enemies adhere to this philosophy. Time to let go of yesteryear.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @F0337, @Tex, @res

  30. This death camp in Madison doesn’t appear to have been a regular prison. 120 dead from 9 Alabama companies in a few months according to this 1882 newspaper story. It appears a list of the dead wasn’t even published prior to 1882.

    https://www.newspapers.com/clip/12702112/notice_of_death_of_joel_browder_and/

    • Replies: @F0337
    @Another Canadian

    There's a Confederate Cemetery nearby to where I live. For now, anyway. Once I took a stroll through it. Boys--generally 17, 18, and 19 years old--and all very very far from home.

  31. @Anonymous
    Here's a photo of the council members. Half of them appear to be white men.

    https://www.cityofmadison.com/Council/councilMembers/alders.cfm

    Replies: @Alden, @Jenner Ickham Errican, @Reg Cæsar

    Imagine the racket when Larry Palm and Maurice Cheeks get together.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Jenner Ickham Errican


    Imagine the racket when Larry Palm and Maurice Cheeks get together.

     

    Nah. They have a Samba on the board, too.

    Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican

  32. @Daniel H
    @PaceLaw

    >>I’m usually with Steve with pretty much everything he says, but this was a memorial to soldiers who fought against the United States and its government.

    Why do you privilege the United States government? Furthermore, consider that various Indian nations waged war against the United States government for over 100 years, should the resting places of their warriors be abhorred?

    Replies: @PaceLaw

    I’m sorry friend, but remember Fort Sumter? The renegade Confederate States of America declared war on the United States of America, not the other way around. Facts.

    • Replies: @Pericles
    @PaceLaw

    I'm informed that Pace University School of Law is categorized as 'guido law' as opposed to Big Law. So I guess there is a dearth of ambulances to chase at the moment.

    , @Samuel Skinner
    @PaceLaw

    John Brown predates Sumter. Dixie views murdering civilians and celebrating it was the promise of more to come as a casus beli.

    , @pyrrhus
    @PaceLaw

    The North had blockaded Southern ports, which was an act of war....Take your propaganda and stick it where it might be believed...

  33. @Tom-in-VA
    @PaceLaw

    1. Because they are still Americans.
    2. Because they died while in Union custody.
    3. Because civilized people treat even enemy dead with respect.
    4. Because barbarians want to erase our history, our culture, and our people, and we can’t let them.

    Replies: @PaceLaw, @Veracitor, @njguy73, @John Gruskos

    1. “Americans” who rose up to destroy the Union of the United States? You can’t be serious!
    2. Why does that matter? Do we need memorials to German and Japanese POWs who died in the custody of the United States during WWII wartime?
    3. Not sure of what historical basis of where you’re coming from my friend. Victors usually have no regard for the enemy dead.
    4. ?

    • Disagree: Federalist
    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @PaceLaw

    Victors usually have no regard for the enemy dead.
    Man, I wasted so much ink and time in my history classes. I could've just whipped out that word "usually."

    , @Veracitor
    @PaceLaw

    1. Confederates as Americans? Yeah, we're serious, because we are also Americans and we didn't sleep through our history or law classes. A few irreconcilables fled the country after the Civil War-- the rest, and all the honored dead, were and therefore are Americans, per the judgement of their contemporaries, by which we are bound legally and morally.

    2. Of course we have memorials to WWII Axis PW's who died in custody in the US: "About 860 German POWs remain buried in 43 sites across the United States, with their graves often tended by local German Women's Clubs. [Wikipedia]"

    3. Tell that to the North Vietnamese, even with respect to the French. Once again, someone seems to have been sleeping through history class. Another example: The British won the War of 1812 in Canada-- but the graves of the Americans who fell there have been respected for over 200 years.

    4. !

    Replies: @PaceLaw, @Diversity Heretic

    , @Anonymous
    @PaceLaw

    John Brown’s grave is honored as a National Historic Landmark and I believe he fought against the U.S. Government. Seems like a bury the hatchet kind of thing.

    , @Federalist
    @PaceLaw

    Damn. I didn't mean to Agree. Actually, I Disagree.

    I Agree with Tom-in-VA.

  34. OT I’ve got a fragment of a conspiracy theory for you: do the urban, socially mobile Han, especially those in the Party, allow their kids to get high?
    Then what the hell are we doing?
    https://www.bbc.com/news/health-45732911

    The researchers, from the University of Montreal, urged teenagers to delay their use of cannabis for as long as they felt able.

    The study tracked and tested 3,800 adolescents over four years, starting from around the age of 13.

    Drinking alcohol and taking drugs, such as cannabis, at a young age is known to cause problems with cognitive abilities such as learning, attention and decision-making as well as academic performance at school.

    This study found these problems increased as cannabis use increased – and the effects were lasting, unlike those of alcohol.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @J.Ross


    OT I’ve got a fragment of a conspiracy theory for you: do the urban, socially mobile Han, especially those in the Party, allow their kids to get high?

     

    We've brought the Opium War home.

    Replies: @J.Ross

    , @Anonymous
    @J.Ross

    Let’s make pot legal, maaan. Cigarettes suck, but weed is awesome.

    Seriously, the apparent push by the elites to legalize pot perplexes me. Due to all of the pro-pot propaganda, many people these days believe that pot has no negative side effects and, in fact, is practically a cure-all for just about anything and everything.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @F0337, @Olorin

  35. @Diversity Heretic
    @PaceLaw

    They did not fight against the United States government, which invaded the South. They fought for the right to secede from a government that no longer served their best interests, rather similarly to the colonists who seceded from the United Kingdom in 1776. The Union victory replaced the voluntary association of states with an empire imposing its will on a defeated people and we live with the consequences of that to this day.

    The Johnny Rebs who lie in that cemetery were better Americans than the real traitors who propose to wipe out the memory of the CSA and its supporters.

    Replies: @PaceLaw, @Reg Cæsar, @Corvinus

    So my friend, what do you say about Antifa? They position themselves to be the Confederates of yesteryear. They are against the official government of United States and are willing to take violent action against it. Would you be willing to support Antifa monuments in 50 to 100 years?

    • Replies: @Pericles
    @PaceLaw


    Would you be willing to support Antifa monuments in 50 to 100 years?

     

    Irrelevant, since Antifa are privileged.

    I'm afraid even a degree of some sort from Pace is sufficient to count as privileged, so your remains will be twerked upon as well.
    , @fnn
    @PaceLaw

    No, no. Antifa is volunteer militia for Big Capital and the American Empire's state security organs. They break a few "corporate" windows and some pretend their true mission is *not* about intimidating anti-regime dissidents. Their Wall Street bosses don't care that the Antifa nominally adhere to some crackpot ideology of "anarcho-communism," they only care that they attack the "fascists" when so ordered.

    https://www.propublica.org/leadership/

    , @Samuel Skinner
    @PaceLaw

    Antifa are not remotely like the Confederates. For starters, they aren't against the US government- they are blatantly supported by local left wing politicians. They aren't even against the federal government- they certain support the fbi investigating trump.

    They are a political movement to seize power, not a secessionist movement to carve out a new nation.

    Replies: @F0337

    , @roo_ster
    @PaceLaw

    Wrong. Antifa is the creature of tbe ruling class.

  36. Matriarchy is incoherent nonsense.

    Welcome to the matriarchy.

  37. Anonymous[101] • Disclaimer says:

    I wonder what poor old Ken Burns thinks about it all. He was the kindly PBS gentleman 10-15 years ago, but his famous Civil War documentary looks like the sick, racist propaganda of a right wing nutbar now. Things change quickly these days and you have to be very cautious not to get the incorrect outlook immortalized on film like that.

    • Replies: @Gunner
    @Anonymous

    Burns is a full on Trump hater, so I am guessing he ignores his even handed Civil War past.

  38. @Diversity Heretic
    @PaceLaw

    They did not fight against the United States government, which invaded the South. They fought for the right to secede from a government that no longer served their best interests, rather similarly to the colonists who seceded from the United Kingdom in 1776. The Union victory replaced the voluntary association of states with an empire imposing its will on a defeated people and we live with the consequences of that to this day.

    The Johnny Rebs who lie in that cemetery were better Americans than the real traitors who propose to wipe out the memory of the CSA and its supporters.

    Replies: @PaceLaw, @Reg Cæsar, @Corvinus

    They fought for the right to secede from a government that no longer served their best interests…

    …which they saw as diversity. The biggest difference between Southerners and other white Americans is their intense love of the Negro, and their inability to live without him close by. Vermont and Idaho’s total whiteness is a bug, not a feature.

    The Union victory replaced the voluntary association of states…

    Someone has never heard of the Whisky Rebellion, or, for that matter, the Fugitive Slave Acts, which allowed states to be invaded by outsiders from other states. Sovereignty for me, not for thee.

    If you wanted to keep your beloved Africans at home– your home– you could have built a Berlin Wall along the Ohio and Potomac. You’d be in good company.

    • Replies: @PaceLaw
    @Reg Cæsar

    Interesting observations Reg Caesar. In fact, I would say the biggest difference between Southerners and Northerners was that the Southerners completely lacked the respect for the humanity of the “Negroes” as opposed to the Northerners. Please acknowledge the abolitionists of the North and their efforts. The Southerners viewed “Negroes” as not much more than beast of burden while the Northerners saw them as people with souls.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Samuel Skinner, @RVBlake, @Reg Cæsar

    , @Samuel Skinner
    @Reg Cæsar


    …which they saw as diversity. The biggest difference between Southerners and other white Americans is their intense love of the Negro, and their inability to live without him close by. Vermont and Idaho’s total whiteness is a bug, not a feature.
     
    Yes, because all white people are exactly the same and Ireland is still part of the UK. The North was flooded by white immigrants that were not English; diversity was as much a part of it as the South.

    Someone has never heard of the Whisky Rebellion, or, for that matter, the Fugitive Slave Acts, which allowed states to be invaded by outsiders from other states. Sovereignty for me, not for thee.
     
    The Whisky Rebellion was an internal uprising, not a conflict between multiple states.

    As for the latter, typical Yankee. Not only do you break the deal, you insist this makes you a more moral person. If the only thing you desire is power, it is all you will receive until in the end your line dies.

    Article 4, Section 2
    No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, But shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

  39. @J.Ross
    @PaceLaw

    When Edith Hamilton was talking about how ancient Greece was foundational to Western values, she mentioned a Greek who, during a war, would fight during the day and then attend a civilized dinner with his enemy in the evening. At Crimea there would be soirees with well-conducted guests from both sides (the Italians would bring opera singers!). And there is the Christmas football game in WWI. We Westerners fight an enemy, not a demon, stopping when appropriate, and considering ourselves roughly equal; we do not, like the Semite, feud with a tribe, spurning every possible connection (even though, since both tribes are doing so, this has the effect of making them comically similar), and prolonging the war through every truce, peace, and apparent victory. We honor the dead in the expectation that our dead will be honored; people outside our tradition deliberately dishonor the dead, imagining that their current strength will never diminish.

    Replies: @PaceLaw

    Somehow I do not believe that Isis, Al Queda or our other enemies adhere to this philosophy. Time to let go of yesteryear.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @PaceLaw

    Because yeah that's a great basis for our cultural decusions.
    Troll.

    , @F0337
    @PaceLaw


    I do not believe that Isis, Al Queda or our other enemies adhere to this philosophy.
     
    Your solution is that we should prove ourselves no better than Isis or Al Qaeda.

    Sadly, you're getting your wish. Enjoy the new world you're inheriting.
    , @Tex
    @PaceLaw


    Somehow I do not believe that Isis, Al Queda or our other enemies adhere to this philosophy. Time to let go of yesteryear.
     
    If the standard of civilized behavior between Americans is whatever ISIS would do, then the next civil war is going to be very ugly indeed. Vandalism is just the start.

    Replies: @sayless

    , @res
    @PaceLaw

    Are you trolling? Your comments above contain a number of pathetic arguments, but asserting we should do as Isis and Al Qaeda do takes the cake.

    If you are trolling, nice job. Otherwise...

    Replies: @PaceLaw

  40. @J.Ross
    OT I've got a fragment of a conspiracy theory for you: do the urban, socially mobile Han, especially those in the Party, allow their kids to get high?
    Then what the hell are we doing?
    https://www.bbc.com/news/health-45732911

    The researchers, from the University of Montreal, urged teenagers to delay their use of cannabis for as long as they felt able.

    The study tracked and tested 3,800 adolescents over four years, starting from around the age of 13.

    Drinking alcohol and taking drugs, such as cannabis, at a young age is known to cause problems with cognitive abilities such as learning, attention and decision-making as well as academic performance at school.

    This study found these problems increased as cannabis use increased - and the effects were lasting, unlike those of alcohol.
     

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Anonymous

    OT I’ve got a fragment of a conspiracy theory for you: do the urban, socially mobile Han, especially those in the Party, allow their kids to get high?

    We’ve brought the Opium War home.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @Reg Cæsar

    Supposedly during the Cold war the Red Chinese supplied a massive amount of heroin for the American market, on the straightforward motive of promoting societal decay. Whether that's true or conflated with the more profit-interested Golden Triangle to the south I'm not sure.

    Replies: @The Alarmist

  41. istevefan says:
    @PaceLaw
    I’m usually with Steve with pretty much everything he says, but this was a memorial to soldiers who fought against the United States and its government. Why exactly should it exist in the first place??? Once you point out the Benedict Arnold monument anywhere in the United States, please be sure to give me your answer.

    Replies: @Daniel H, @Tom-in-VA, @Diversity Heretic, @Ibound1, @J.Ross, @istevefan, @istevefan, @M_Young, @Big Bill, @vinteuil, @anonymous

    Once you point out the Benedict Arnold monument anywhere in the United States, please be sure to give me your answer.

    Ask and ye shall receive.

    The Boot Monument is an American Revolutionary War memorial located in Saratoga National Historical Park, New York. It commemorates Major General Benedict Arnold’s service at the Battles of Saratoga in the Continental Army, but contrives not to name him.

    Also, there is a obelisk memorial at Saratoga which indirectly honors Arnold.

    . The park preserves a number of the buildings in the area and contains a variety of monuments.[97] The Saratoga Monument obelisk has four niches, three of which hold statues of American commanders: Gates and Schuyler and of Colonel Daniel Morgan. The fourth niche, where Arnold’s statue would go, is empty.[98] A more dramatic memorial to Arnold’s heroism, that does not name him, is the Boot Monument. Donated by Civil War General John Watts de Peyster, it shows a boot with spurs and the stars of a major general. It stands at the spot where Arnold was shot on October 7 charging Breymann’s redoubt and is dedicated to “the most brilliant soldier of the Continental Army”.

    Though Arnold is not directly mentioned, any visitor to these monuments with an IQ of 90 or better would understand that Arnold was being referenced. I really like how they did this. On the one hand Arnold was a traitor. But on the other he was a hero. So instead of erasing him completely from history and replacing him with someone else, they just left his space blank which causes the visitor to question and then learn about Arnold.

    If today’s SJWs had been in charge of that monument, they would have erased Arnold and replaced him with a minority with a made-up account of what took place.

    • Agree: Dan Hayes
    • Replies: @PaceLaw
    @istevefan

    “Ask and ye shall receive!” These are indeed great biblical words. Thank you for enlightening me!

  42. @Jenner Ickham Errican
    @Anonymous

    Imagine the racket when Larry Palm and Maurice Cheeks get together.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Imagine the racket when Larry Palm and Maurice Cheeks get together.

    Nah. They have a Samba on the board, too.

    • Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican
    @Reg Cæsar

    :|

  43. @Reg Cæsar
    @J.Ross


    OT I’ve got a fragment of a conspiracy theory for you: do the urban, socially mobile Han, especially those in the Party, allow their kids to get high?

     

    We've brought the Opium War home.

    Replies: @J.Ross

    Supposedly during the Cold war the Red Chinese supplied a massive amount of heroin for the American market, on the straightforward motive of promoting societal decay. Whether that’s true or conflated with the more profit-interested Golden Triangle to the south I’m not sure.

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    @J.Ross


    "Supposedly during the Cold war the Red Chinese supplied a massive amount of heroin for the American market ...."
     
    Do you really think The Company would let the ChiComs cut in on their turf?
  44. @Anonymous
    Here's a photo of the council members. Half of them appear to be white men.

    https://www.cityofmadison.com/Council/councilMembers/alders.cfm

    Replies: @Alden, @Jenner Ickham Errican, @Reg Cæsar

    Which ones represent Pinckney Street?

    • Replies: @Olorin
    @Reg Cæsar

    N and S Pinckney cross two aldermanic districts. Rep by Ledell Zellers N, Marsha Rummel S iirc.

    Rummel works for the Department of Revenue (WI), making sure taxpayers keep coughing up for whatever schemes the Dems concoct for their melanin farming plantations. She lives in an apartment or condo in her district overlooking Lake Monona.

    Zellers was an HR chick (English BA and MLS) for the State of Wisconsin Investment Board for many years, retiring iirc in 2014. She lives in a $600K Victorian (actually built before the Civil War) in her district over near Langdon St. on what is known as the Mansion Hill neighborhood.

    https://madisonessentials.com/Article/2016-08/Van-Slyke

    https://madison.com/wsj/news/local/know-your-madisonian-ledell-zellers-renovating-as-an-act-of/article_b97eb0ae-e237-11de-9f3e-001cc4c002e0.html

    Yeah, she's served on the Madison Trust for Historic Preservation since the mid-1990s.

    Historic preservation for me, but not for thee, Johnny Reb.

    Earlier this year she refused a copy of Heather MacDonald's book, The War On Cops, offered to all Madison alders by some pro-cop advocates.

    Both Pinckney alders were endorsed by the Green Party. Also iirc they both sponsored some sort of resolution a couple years ago calling for reinstatement of public funding for abortions.

    And both recently voted against the building of a boutique hotel on State Street on the grounds that its plans call for it to be 19 feet taller than city standards allow; the project's goal is to reduce crime on that part of State St. by increasing foot traffic and let's be frank gentrifying that part of town.

    Thus we conclude that Zellers doesn't like gentrification OR cops, while living in one of the most upscale Madison neighborhoods...and complaining about noise and drinking and cars playing loud music, which is to say dogwhistling against the fraternity brothers on Langdon St.

    I'm sure that she'd spearhead a drive to rename Pinckney St. in a nanosecond if it would provide a stage for grandstanding about social justice or whatever.

  45. @PaceLaw
    @Tom-in-VA

    1. “Americans” who rose up to destroy the Union of the United States? You can’t be serious!
    2. Why does that matter? Do we need memorials to German and Japanese POWs who died in the custody of the United States during WWII wartime?
    3. Not sure of what historical basis of where you’re coming from my friend. Victors usually have no regard for the enemy dead.
    4. ?

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Veracitor, @Anonymous, @Federalist

    Victors usually have no regard for the enemy dead.
    Man, I wasted so much ink and time in my history classes. I could’ve just whipped out that word “usually.”

  46. istevefan says:
    @Diversity Heretic
    There were suggestions to disenterre the bodies of Nathan Bedford Forrest and his wife in Memphis, Tennessee, so the proposition that the 140 bodies need to be removed is not far-fetched. How long until the remains of the soldiers buried in Custer National Cemetery at Little Bighorn Battlefield National Monument are slated for removal?

    White Americans are being both symbolically and literally displaced and dispossessed from the country their ancestors built.

    Replies: @istevefan, @Joe Schmoe

    White Americans are being both symbolically and literally displaced and dispossessed from the country their ancestors built.

    What you write is true. But eventually if White Americans and other Whites in the Euro world continue to allow this to happen, you really can’t sympathize with them. No one is holding a gun to their collective heads. In fact in most Euro nations, USA included, a majority of the whites probably do not want what is happening to them to happen. Yet they are cowered into submission, not by force of arms, but buy a vocal, unarmed minority who use words. Words!

    I understand the consequences of social ostracism, but one would hope that the descendants of the great peoples of Europe would require more than words to take them down.

    • Replies: @F0337
    @istevefan


    No one is holding a gun to their collective heads.
     
    May I introduce you to MSM propaganda. Note that it takes the form of entertainment.

    Yet they are cowered into submission, not by force of arms, but buy a vocal, unarmed minority who use words. Words!
     
    It's not words. It's audio-visual 'entertainment' and it's coupled with the full force of law, corporate policy, the educational establishment, and every single organization you can name as well as what masquerades as "news" and "facts" in our society.

    It creates what people 'know' to be 'truth'. It's a full-court-press juggernaut, 24/7/365, including far more than "words" and meanwhile please tell me why guns would ever be needed, as effective and pervasive as it is.

  47. @istevefan
    @PaceLaw


    Once you point out the Benedict Arnold monument anywhere in the United States, please be sure to give me your answer.
     
    Ask and ye shall receive.

    The Boot Monument is an American Revolutionary War memorial located in Saratoga National Historical Park, New York. It commemorates Major General Benedict Arnold's service at the Battles of Saratoga in the Continental Army, but contrives not to name him.
     
    Also, there is a obelisk memorial at Saratoga which indirectly honors Arnold.


    . The park preserves a number of the buildings in the area and contains a variety of monuments.[97] The Saratoga Monument obelisk has four niches, three of which hold statues of American commanders: Gates and Schuyler and of Colonel Daniel Morgan. The fourth niche, where Arnold's statue would go, is empty.[98] A more dramatic memorial to Arnold's heroism, that does not name him, is the Boot Monument. Donated by Civil War General John Watts de Peyster, it shows a boot with spurs and the stars of a major general. It stands at the spot where Arnold was shot on October 7 charging Breymann's redoubt and is dedicated to "the most brilliant soldier of the Continental Army".

     

    Though Arnold is not directly mentioned, any visitor to these monuments with an IQ of 90 or better would understand that Arnold was being referenced. I really like how they did this. On the one hand Arnold was a traitor. But on the other he was a hero. So instead of erasing him completely from history and replacing him with someone else, they just left his space blank which causes the visitor to question and then learn about Arnold.

    If today's SJWs had been in charge of that monument, they would have erased Arnold and replaced him with a minority with a made-up account of what took place.

    Replies: @PaceLaw

    “Ask and ye shall receive!” These are indeed great biblical words. Thank you for enlightening me!

  48. anon[321] • Disclaimer says:

    When vandals smashed the stelae in Athens the city was outraged and wanted the deaths of the perpetrators. Monuments to the dead matter to people who still have a common sense of purpose and share in a common narrative of their history and future.
    In Chicago today I saw a magnificent old building on Michigan Ave, and on the foundation stone in fading letters was carved “The Grand Army of the Republic 1893”.
    There weren’t one in a thousand passers-by in Chicago who would notice that foundation stone or care one whit about the GAR. Madison is ruled by nitwits who destroy a monument because its trendy.
    In a small country cemetery in the Ozarks my own great great grandfather’s headstone has his Confederate regiment number proudly engraved at the bottom. Fewer and fewer people remain in the South who care about that legacy.
    The common purpose and story that built Chicago and the United States seems to have run its course. Its not just a Confederate monument in Madison that is being removed. Its not just history. Its our future as a common people.

    • Agree: densa
  49. Anonymous[264] • Disclaimer says:
    @J.Ross
    OT I've got a fragment of a conspiracy theory for you: do the urban, socially mobile Han, especially those in the Party, allow their kids to get high?
    Then what the hell are we doing?
    https://www.bbc.com/news/health-45732911

    The researchers, from the University of Montreal, urged teenagers to delay their use of cannabis for as long as they felt able.

    The study tracked and tested 3,800 adolescents over four years, starting from around the age of 13.

    Drinking alcohol and taking drugs, such as cannabis, at a young age is known to cause problems with cognitive abilities such as learning, attention and decision-making as well as academic performance at school.

    This study found these problems increased as cannabis use increased - and the effects were lasting, unlike those of alcohol.
     

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Anonymous

    Let’s make pot legal, maaan. Cigarettes suck, but weed is awesome.

    Seriously, the apparent push by the elites to legalize pot perplexes me. Due to all of the pro-pot propaganda, many people these days believe that pot has no negative side effects and, in fact, is practically a cure-all for just about anything and everything.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @Anonymous

    My favorite aspect was Eric Holder's legally illiterate move of making it simultaneously legal and illegal (this is Chinese law: the state can swoop in at any time, but for the moment you see the mercy of their discretion, so don't anger them), oh yeah and there's a registry, so five years from now when you want to buy a firearm you won't be able to.

    , @F0337
    @Anonymous

    Yields a passive and compliant populace, what's not to love..

    , @Olorin
    @Anonymous

    Here in the PNW, it's Wall Street hedge funds underwriting the big grow operations and development of a retail sector. The vision is something like drugging everyone into the extreme version of the best of white people--passivity and compliance (as F0337 puts it well), but without the troubling Hate-Learning-Saxon element.

    As for parents allowing or encouraging this behavior starting in teens, by this point it's safe to assume they did it too. The earliest Gen Xers are within five to seven years of retirement age, remember.

  50. istevefan says:
    @PaceLaw
    I’m usually with Steve with pretty much everything he says, but this was a memorial to soldiers who fought against the United States and its government. Why exactly should it exist in the first place??? Once you point out the Benedict Arnold monument anywhere in the United States, please be sure to give me your answer.

    Replies: @Daniel H, @Tom-in-VA, @Diversity Heretic, @Ibound1, @J.Ross, @istevefan, @istevefan, @M_Young, @Big Bill, @vinteuil, @anonymous

    Do people realize there are German WW2 cemeteries in Russia? I’ve long known about German cemeteries in France and Western Europe. But Russia? The Germans were very brutal towards Slavs, and the Slavs suffered greatly during WW2. Yet there are German cemeteries in Russia that continue to add new graves as old remains are discovered.

    If the Russians can allow the Germans to be buried in a dignified manner, why can’t the residents of Madison do the same for the Confederates?

    • Replies: @PaceLaw
    @istevefan

    Good question, but entirely irrelevant to today’s politics. Not surprised at all as to the German monuments to the dead in Russia after World War II. There were so many of them.

    Replies: @istevefan

    , @Dan Hayes
    @istevefan

    The breadth of knowledge of UR commentators continues to amaze me!

    For example, I never knew (or had any inkling) that there were German World War II cemeteries in Russia.

    , @anonymous
    @istevefan

    There are German WW2 graves (with headstones acknowledging their German rank and service) in Kalamazoo County Michigan at Fort Custer (yeah that Custer) National Cemetery. Every year on Volkstrauertag (German memorial day) a service is conducted on Federal property to honor them.

    From the Ft. Custer National Cemetery [email protected]#%book page on November 13, 2016:


    The Ft. Custer Wednesday Honor Guard had the distinct privilege to support Volkstrauertag 2016, held at the Ft. Custer National Cemetery earlier today.

    The Volkstrauertag (German for "people's day of mourning") is a public holiday in Germany two Sundays before the first day of Advent. It commemorates members of the German armed forces and civilians who died in armed conflicts, to include victims of violent oppression. It was first observed in its modern form in 1952.

    An official observation of Volkstrauertag takes place in the German Bundestag. The President of Germany traditionally gives a speech with the Chancellor, the cabinet and the diplomatic corps present. The national anthem and the song "Ich hatt' einen Kameraden" ("I had a comrade") are then played. Most provinces also hold their own ceremonies; veterans usually organize ceremonies that include a procession from the respective Church service to a war memorial, prayer by the pastor, speeches by the mayor and the veterans' chairmen, a military guard of honor, several wreaths are laid, and "Ich hatt' einen Kameraden"; where available, also with the attendance of a Bundeswehr officer as official representative.

    Because of the relation to Advent, the date is the Sunday nearest 16 November, i.e. in the period from 13 November to 19 November.

    This local Volkstrauertag observation is especially important to the local German-American community as they honor the "Forgotten Twenty-Six". From 1943 to 1946, Fort Custer housed several German Prisoner of War camps. Many of the 4,000 prisoners worked on farms and in vineyards in the area. In Section B of Fort Custer National Cemetery, once part of the Post Cemetery of Fort Custer, there are 26 German graves. Sixteen of the men were killed or died as a result of an accident on 31 October 1944 when a truck, returning German prisoners of war from a work detail to their POW camp at Fort Custer, collided with a train at an unguarded railroad crossing at Blissfield, MI. The other ten died of natural causes while prisoners of war.
     

    Doesn’t Bobby Mueller need to question Senators Stabenow and Peters about this under oath?

    P.S. Didn’t James Madison own slaves and brought them into the Whitehouse to serve him?

    Replies: @res, @istevefan

    , @Tex
    @istevefan

    I stumbled across a few isolated grave markers for German soldiers around Prague. Some were quite new.

    After the war the German population was expelled from Czechoslovakia. It was a drastic, but quite logical solution to the whole "Sudeten" question that had been so pivotal in bringing the war about in the first place. It also imposed a lot of suffering on the expelled. In the '90s the Czechs and Germans had to do a lot of high-level diplomacy to resolve the bitterness from the expulsions. This was an era when the Czechs were looking to join the EU. Resolving old grudges and having some shared sense of European values was important.

    That was the '90s of course. Today it's about the shared sense of purpose with whoever shows up from Syria or Afghanistan and crushing the Confederacy by knocking over statues.

    , @International Jew
    @istevefan


    If the Russians can allow the Germans to be buried in a dignified manner, why can’t the residents of Madison do the same for the Confederates?
     
    Good question. The Wikipedia article you cite does mention that Germany bought goodwill with the locals by paying for work on roads and a church. Maybe Madison would reconsider if the Daughters of the Confederacy gave them a gift. And I guess the million+ decendants of slaves now living in Wisconsin and the many blessings of diversity they've brought, don't count.

    A separate question is, Why doesn't Germany bring the bodies back home for burial? The bodies buried there were all collected from various other places so it's not like they weren't already going to be exhumed.

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @istevefan


    If the Russians can allow the Germans to be buried in a dignified manner, why can’t the residents of Madison do the same for the Confederates?

     

    Because Russia still has one foot in Western civilization.
  51. @Reg Cæsar
    @Diversity Heretic


    They fought for the right to secede from a government that no longer served their best interests...
     
    ...which they saw as diversity. The biggest difference between Southerners and other white Americans is their intense love of the Negro, and their inability to live without him close by. Vermont and Idaho's total whiteness is a bug, not a feature.

    The Union victory replaced the voluntary association of states...
     
    Someone has never heard of the Whisky Rebellion, or, for that matter, the Fugitive Slave Acts, which allowed states to be invaded by outsiders from other states. Sovereignty for me, not for thee.

    If you wanted to keep your beloved Africans at home-- your home-- you could have built a Berlin Wall along the Ohio and Potomac. You'd be in good company.


    https://i.pinimg.com/474x/e6/c8/e5/e6c8e55479e723580e6fe907e7f1ae8d--berlin-heute-berlin-wall.jpg

    Replies: @PaceLaw, @Samuel Skinner

    Interesting observations Reg Caesar. In fact, I would say the biggest difference between Southerners and Northerners was that the Southerners completely lacked the respect for the humanity of the “Negroes” as opposed to the Northerners. Please acknowledge the abolitionists of the North and their efforts. The Southerners viewed “Negroes” as not much more than beast of burden while the Northerners saw them as people with souls.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @PaceLaw


    In fact, I would say the biggest difference between Southerners and Northerners was that the Southerners completely lacked the respect for the humanity of the “Negroes” as opposed to the Northerners.
     
    Who called them Svigors and rioted at the thought of having to fight for them. You do not know what you are talking about.
    , @Samuel Skinner
    @PaceLaw

    Yes, if you define humanity as 'political opinions of Northerners', then Southerners didn't view blacks that way. Given the current state of South Africa all this shows is that Northerners are insane and Southeners care more about their children then sucking up to Northern propaganda.

    If you define humanity in the way most humans do, then Southerners certain did; the South was the only slave society in human history where the slave population grew from its own fertility.

    , @RVBlake
    @PaceLaw

    That's a sweeping description of the opinions of Northerners during the Civil War. Capt. Frederick Benteen, who commanded a surviving battalion of the 7th US Cavalry at the Little Bighorn in 1876, was a colonel in the Union Army during the Civil War. He stated that he never saw an Abolitionist in the Union ranks during his War service.

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @PaceLaw

    First, there are no "Northerners". Up here, we don't use that language.

    If you believe black Africans have a place in North America, then you agree with the Confederates, and not with the Union Soldiers, who came from states that were 98% white, and who held no such illusions. Admit it.

    Except for the three border states, the Union was as white as Iceland is today.

    (I bet you also believe blacks shouldn't be allowed to possess handguns-- exactly what the Confederates felt.)

    You might read up on how the surviving soldiers on both sides treated each other:

    https://www.nationalparkstraveler.org/2009/02/rare-motion-pictures-show-civil-war-veterans-75th-gettysburg-battle-anniversary
    http://segtours.com/blog/archives/1989
    https://mashable.com/2015/04/10/civil-war-oldest-veterans/#3K.6Y2pUKOqD

    Replies: @Samuel Skinner

  52. @The Alarmist

    "You let 140 POWs die in your POW camp, Madisonians ...."
     
    Some might argue that they didn't simply let the POWs die, rather they aided and abetted a brutal internment tantamount to a crime against humanity. Madison needs this monument to help expiate the shame of Madisonians atrocity against these poor, albeit misguided, creatures.

    Replies: @BenKenobi, @Olorin, @Delmas

    Remember the 140!

    Doesn’t have quite the same ring…

  53. @Tom-in-VA
    @PaceLaw

    1. Because they are still Americans.
    2. Because they died while in Union custody.
    3. Because civilized people treat even enemy dead with respect.
    4. Because barbarians want to erase our history, our culture, and our people, and we can’t let them.

    Replies: @PaceLaw, @Veracitor, @njguy73, @John Gruskos

    Yeah, and also. . .

    Because of Appomattox. As General Grant said after Lee surrendered with all his men and Grant released them all on parole not to thereafter bear arms against the Union, “The Confederates were now our countrymen, and we did not want to exult over their downfall.”

    Desecrating the graves of your countrymen is a crime and a shameful policy. If those who personally suffered the incidents of war at the living hands of those Confederate soldiers could subordinate their justifiable thirst for revenge to their desire for honorable reconciliation, we who are their descendants and heirs can certainly respect their decision a century and a half later. Anyone who says otherwise is a barbarian and lacks all honor.

    • Agree: Dtbb
    • Replies: @F0337
    @Veracitor


    we who are their descendants and heirs
     
    Sadly, this description now encompasses a small minority of "Americans".

    Replies: @Rosamond Vincy

    , @njguy73
    @Veracitor

    Honor?

    OK, dude, you owe a new laptop, 'cause I just spit coffee all over mine.

    , @Anonymous
    @Veracitor


    If those who personally suffered the incidents of war at the living hands of those Confederate soldiers could subordinate their justifiable thirst for revenge to their desire for honorable reconciliation
     
    Except a thirst for "revenge" wouldn't be justifiable.
  54. @istevefan
    @PaceLaw

    Do people realize there are German WW2 cemeteries in Russia? I've long known about German cemeteries in France and Western Europe. But Russia? The Germans were very brutal towards Slavs, and the Slavs suffered greatly during WW2. Yet there are German cemeteries in Russia that continue to add new graves as old remains are discovered.

    If the Russians can allow the Germans to be buried in a dignified manner, why can't the residents of Madison do the same for the Confederates?

    Replies: @PaceLaw, @Dan Hayes, @anonymous, @Tex, @International Jew, @Reg Cæsar

    Good question, but entirely irrelevant to today’s politics. Not surprised at all as to the German monuments to the dead in Russia after World War II. There were so many of them.

    • Replies: @istevefan
    @PaceLaw


    Good question, but entirely irrelevant to today’s politics. Not surprised at all as to the German monuments to the dead in Russia after World War II. There were so many of them.
     
    I think you are missing the point. The number of Germans who fought and died in Russia is immaterial. The reason they fought and died in Russia is. And to the Russians the Germans came to essentially ethnically cleanse them from their land with mass killings of civilians being part of the equation. The Russians have every reason to not allow any German grave markers in their nation, and I doubt anyone would seriously criticize them for it.

    As for the Confederates in Madison, they never tried to ethnically cleanse the people of Wisconsin from their land. They only wanted to break out of the union with Wisconsin which is not even within several orders of magnitude what the Germans did to the Russians. The fact that the Russians are able to act like adults while the people of Madison cannot is telling.

    Replies: @PaceLaw, @Reg Cæsar

  55. @Reg Cæsar
    @Jenner Ickham Errican


    Imagine the racket when Larry Palm and Maurice Cheeks get together.

     

    Nah. They have a Samba on the board, too.

    Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican

    😐

  56. @istevefan
    @PaceLaw

    Do people realize there are German WW2 cemeteries in Russia? I've long known about German cemeteries in France and Western Europe. But Russia? The Germans were very brutal towards Slavs, and the Slavs suffered greatly during WW2. Yet there are German cemeteries in Russia that continue to add new graves as old remains are discovered.

    If the Russians can allow the Germans to be buried in a dignified manner, why can't the residents of Madison do the same for the Confederates?

    Replies: @PaceLaw, @Dan Hayes, @anonymous, @Tex, @International Jew, @Reg Cæsar

    The breadth of knowledge of UR commentators continues to amaze me!

    For example, I never knew (or had any inkling) that there were German World War II cemeteries in Russia.

  57. anonymous[201] • Disclaimer says: • Website
    @istevefan
    @PaceLaw

    Do people realize there are German WW2 cemeteries in Russia? I've long known about German cemeteries in France and Western Europe. But Russia? The Germans were very brutal towards Slavs, and the Slavs suffered greatly during WW2. Yet there are German cemeteries in Russia that continue to add new graves as old remains are discovered.

    If the Russians can allow the Germans to be buried in a dignified manner, why can't the residents of Madison do the same for the Confederates?

    Replies: @PaceLaw, @Dan Hayes, @anonymous, @Tex, @International Jew, @Reg Cæsar

    There are German WW2 graves (with headstones acknowledging their German rank and service) in Kalamazoo County Michigan at Fort Custer (yeah that Custer) National Cemetery. Every year on Volkstrauertag (German memorial day) a service is conducted on Federal property to honor them.

    From the Ft. Custer National Cemetery [email protected]#%book page on November 13, 2016:

    The Ft. Custer Wednesday Honor Guard had the distinct privilege to support Volkstrauertag 2016, held at the Ft. Custer National Cemetery earlier today.

    The Volkstrauertag (German for “people’s day of mourning”) is a public holiday in Germany two Sundays before the first day of Advent. It commemorates members of the German armed forces and civilians who died in armed conflicts, to include victims of violent oppression. It was first observed in its modern form in 1952.

    An official observation of Volkstrauertag takes place in the German Bundestag. The President of Germany traditionally gives a speech with the Chancellor, the cabinet and the diplomatic corps present. The national anthem and the song “Ich hatt’ einen Kameraden” (“I had a comrade”) are then played. Most provinces also hold their own ceremonies; veterans usually organize ceremonies that include a procession from the respective Church service to a war memorial, prayer by the pastor, speeches by the mayor and the veterans’ chairmen, a military guard of honor, several wreaths are laid, and “Ich hatt’ einen Kameraden”; where available, also with the attendance of a Bundeswehr officer as official representative.

    Because of the relation to Advent, the date is the Sunday nearest 16 November, i.e. in the period from 13 November to 19 November.

    This local Volkstrauertag observation is especially important to the local German-American community as they honor the “Forgotten Twenty-Six”. From 1943 to 1946, Fort Custer housed several German Prisoner of War camps. Many of the 4,000 prisoners worked on farms and in vineyards in the area. In Section B of Fort Custer National Cemetery, once part of the Post Cemetery of Fort Custer, there are 26 German graves. Sixteen of the men were killed or died as a result of an accident on 31 October 1944 when a truck, returning German prisoners of war from a work detail to their POW camp at Fort Custer, collided with a train at an unguarded railroad crossing at Blissfield, MI. The other ten died of natural causes while prisoners of war.

    Doesn’t Bobby Mueller need to question Senators Stabenow and Peters about this under oath?

    P.S. Didn’t James Madison own slaves and brought them into the Whitehouse to serve him?

    • Replies: @res
    @anonymous


    There are German WW2 graves (with headstones acknowledging their German rank and service) in Kalamazoo County Michigan at Fort Custer (yeah that Custer) National Cemetery.
     
    That is a fantastic counterexample. Thanks!
    , @istevefan
    @anonymous

    I never knew about those German graves in Michigan. I don't know what surprises me more, that there are such graves in Michigan, or that they are still allowed to exist in Michigan in 2018.

  58. It’s the Second Sweep phase of monumenticide in blue-occupied territory. All surviving memorials to be hunted down and made extinct. Leave no remnant, to show dominance and instill fear. Because they can.

    The statue removal movement is Black Feelings Matter, a version 2.0 of Black Lives Matter with the bugs repaired. Primitive prototype BLM 1.0 kills blacks, unifies whites, and got Trump elected. That’s been fixed. BFM is white kryptonite that gets results!

    If Black Feelings Matter then history must be rewritten accordingly or it doesn’t work. The Civil War (the one with soldiers, not the current thing with Antifa and Kavanaugh hearings) is now exclusively a war about slavery, diversity and the worth of blacks. Anyone on the losing side was evil. Southern troops are SS, not Wehrmacht. Evil US citizens dying in POW camps run by good US citizens, is good. Postwar national reconciliation is out. Stomping the losers unto the hundredth generation is in.

    Maybe that’s the way to fight this kryptonite politically: to characterize it (correctly) as victor’s justice making a comeback after 150 years, and as a warning that vae victis will befall deplorables/whites if they lose the national struggle.

    • Agree: densa
  59. So the Madison city council and DJ Trump have something in common: They both prefer people who weren’t captured.

    And jfc, Paul Soglin is STILL the mayor of Madison.

    • Replies: @Olorin
    @Len

    Pinko Paul's leaving his third non-consecutive gig as mayor (this one since 2011) and is running for Governor this year.

    https://madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/madison-mayor-paul-soglin-announces-he-will-not-seek-re/article_e549143f-fce3-5173-a482-fadfacaad308.html

    His real gig however is with Epic Software, a massive and powerful privately held closed-to-sunshine health care management software company just south of Madison, renowned for being one of the worst employers in Dane County from a workers' rights perspective.

    It's owned by billionaire Judy Faulkner.

    https://madison.com/ct/news/local/her-way-epic-systems-ceo-judy-faulkner-talks-about-trusting/article_7fafd560-d5fd-5a7f-8ef8-59d6bd4cf452.html

    https://madison.com/ct/news/local/govt-and-politics/epic-systems-attorney-company-s-arbitration-agreements-are-legal-do/article_43769eec-49bc-546d-9ac4-b9d30ea0294b.html

    I've wondered what overlap might exist between Faulkner's automation of information-for-megaprofit of the ills flesh is heir to and the statistical analysis of these by individuals like Christine Blasey Ford's mentor, Helena Chmura Kraemer (who quantifies things like the economics of when to shove someone out of health care and into palliative care).

    Suffice it to say the New World Order of turning your very biological existence into pixels managed for megaprofit by cabals of feminists who operate outside of any public scrutiny seems to be the path things are taking. After all, as liberated women possessing the maximum of goddesslike attributes, they know best what is true or not, and whether you should live or die--whether the topic is abortion, cancer, or a beer party back in high school.

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal

  60. @PaceLaw
    @Tom-in-VA

    1. “Americans” who rose up to destroy the Union of the United States? You can’t be serious!
    2. Why does that matter? Do we need memorials to German and Japanese POWs who died in the custody of the United States during WWII wartime?
    3. Not sure of what historical basis of where you’re coming from my friend. Victors usually have no regard for the enemy dead.
    4. ?

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Veracitor, @Anonymous, @Federalist

    1. Confederates as Americans? Yeah, we’re serious, because we are also Americans and we didn’t sleep through our history or law classes. A few irreconcilables fled the country after the Civil War– the rest, and all the honored dead, were and therefore are Americans, per the judgement of their contemporaries, by which we are bound legally and morally.

    2. Of course we have memorials to WWII Axis PW’s who died in custody in the US: “About 860 German POWs remain buried in 43 sites across the United States, with their graves often tended by local German Women’s Clubs. [Wikipedia]”

    3. Tell that to the North Vietnamese, even with respect to the French. Once again, someone seems to have been sleeping through history class. Another example: The British won the War of 1812 in Canada– but the graves of the Americans who fell there have been respected for over 200 years.

    4. !

    • Replies: @PaceLaw
    @Veracitor

    1. No my friend, I do not believe the Confederates considered themselves to be Americans. They thought themselves to be a breed apart with their own racial caste system.

    2. Nice try friend, but I can’t say that I’ve ever seen in my entire lifetime a German or Japanese POW site or memorial in this great country of ours. And I’ve traveled a great bit of it.

    3. The NVA (seriously?!?!) and post-war Canadians in 1816 are pretty sad examples for your point. Just saying . . .

    4. ?

    Replies: @F0337, @Bill P, @Tex

    , @Diversity Heretic
    @Veracitor

    I've seen the marked graves of three German and three Italian POW's who died in captivity at Warren Air Force Base outside Cheyenne, Wyoming. They are outside the fence containing American military dead, but the graves are identified in the same manner as are the Americans and are tended just the same. There are numerous German military cemeteries in France and Belgium with memorials to the dead soldiers. Even the Russians are allowing Germans to disenterre, identify if possible and rebury their dead from World War II. There were rumors that the Germans had desecrated the Commonwealth War Graves of Great Britain from World War I during the occupation of World War II, but this was not the case--the graves and the monuments were left intact.

    The actions of the Madison City Council are despicable.

  61. Anonymous[201] • Disclaimer says: • Website
    @PaceLaw
    @Tom-in-VA

    1. “Americans” who rose up to destroy the Union of the United States? You can’t be serious!
    2. Why does that matter? Do we need memorials to German and Japanese POWs who died in the custody of the United States during WWII wartime?
    3. Not sure of what historical basis of where you’re coming from my friend. Victors usually have no regard for the enemy dead.
    4. ?

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Veracitor, @Anonymous, @Federalist

    John Brown’s grave is honored as a National Historic Landmark and I believe he fought against the U.S. Government. Seems like a bury the hatchet kind of thing.

  62. @The Alarmist

    "You let 140 POWs die in your POW camp, Madisonians ...."
     
    Some might argue that they didn't simply let the POWs die, rather they aided and abetted a brutal internment tantamount to a crime against humanity. Madison needs this monument to help expiate the shame of Madisonians atrocity against these poor, albeit misguided, creatures.

    Replies: @BenKenobi, @Olorin, @Delmas

    At Camp Randall, iirc. Wonder if they’ll tear down those walls, remembering what F**king White Males the GAR was?

    I remember Donna Shalala’s taking major umbrage about the football war cry of “fuck ’em, Bucky” back in the, what, ’90s?

    This was around the time she had the ancient beloved pugnacious badger mascot declared Intellectual Property of the UW System.

  63. @Veracitor
    @PaceLaw

    1. Confederates as Americans? Yeah, we're serious, because we are also Americans and we didn't sleep through our history or law classes. A few irreconcilables fled the country after the Civil War-- the rest, and all the honored dead, were and therefore are Americans, per the judgement of their contemporaries, by which we are bound legally and morally.

    2. Of course we have memorials to WWII Axis PW's who died in custody in the US: "About 860 German POWs remain buried in 43 sites across the United States, with their graves often tended by local German Women's Clubs. [Wikipedia]"

    3. Tell that to the North Vietnamese, even with respect to the French. Once again, someone seems to have been sleeping through history class. Another example: The British won the War of 1812 in Canada-- but the graves of the Americans who fell there have been respected for over 200 years.

    4. !

    Replies: @PaceLaw, @Diversity Heretic

    1. No my friend, I do not believe the Confederates considered themselves to be Americans. They thought themselves to be a breed apart with their own racial caste system.

    2. Nice try friend, but I can’t say that I’ve ever seen in my entire lifetime a German or Japanese POW site or memorial in this great country of ours. And I’ve traveled a great bit of it.

    3. The NVA (seriously?!?!) and post-war Canadians in 1816 are pretty sad examples for your point. Just saying . . .

    4. ?

    • Replies: @F0337
    @PaceLaw


    Nice try friend, but I can’t say that I’ve ever seen in my entire lifetime a German or Japanese POW site or memorial in this great country of ours.
     
    We treated World War II POWs far better than the good folks of Madison, Wisconsin did Civil War soldiers. Hence, no need for POW cemeteries.

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal

    , @Bill P
    @PaceLaw

    Just because you haven't seen a German POW' s grave doesn't mean they don't exist.

    There's one in Fort Lawton in Seattle that I've seen. The soldier committed suicide when he learned he'd be handed over to the Soviets for slave labor after the war ended. There's also a memorial to an Italian POW -- a broken column. The Italian was lynched by a group of black soldiers after he beat a black in a fistfight.

    Unfortunately, it's a good bet that the Seattle city council would eliminate these monuments given the opportunity.

    Replies: @PaceLaw, @res

    , @Tex
    @PaceLaw


    1. No my friend, I do not believe the Confederates considered themselves to be Americans. They thought themselves to be a breed apart with their own racial caste system.
     
    That's top-tier historical illiteracy. The people of the CSA absolutely though they were American, as in Confederate States of AMERICA. The Union position was even more radical, Southerners were so American they weren't allowed to stop being US citizens.

    2. Nice try friend, but I can’t say that I’ve ever seen in my entire lifetime a German or Japanese POW site or memorial in this great country of ours. And I’ve traveled a great bit of it.
     
    Travel a little more.

    http://www.texasescapes.com/WorldWarII/POW-Camp-Chapel-Hereford-Texas.htm

    P.O.W. Camp Chapel Restored
    Thanks to an article on the restoration of the Hereford POW Chapel featured in the Lubbock Avalanche ("Avalanche" in West Texas?!- That's the name) Journal, I went back to see it. The Chapel is now beautiful as it sits in the middle of a lush corn field as opposed the the forlorn look it had just last December. There were two abandoned dogs, more like big puppies, guarding the Chapel.

    And then there's St. Mary's church in Umbarger and it's murals painted by Italian POWs. They are rather proud of the POW art in Umbarger.

    http://www.texasescapes.com/Churches/Umbarger-Texas-St-Marys-Catholic-Church.htm



    The Chapel has been beautifully restored. New Plexiglas panels and paint inside and out. The colorful gravel-epoxy flags are nicely redone. Thankfully the brass plaques have been removed, probably to the safety of the Castro County Museum.

    Photographic evidence included.

    See also:

    http://www.gentracer.org/hereford7.html
  64. @Dan Hayes
    Steve,

    To be expected from the hometown of the University of Wisconsin, the mid-Western redoubt of NYC and sundry other leftist radicals.

    Of course there are always exceptions which prove the rule, one example being Kevin MacDonald.

    Replies: @M_Young

    Although probably the best history department, as far as grad school goes, in the country.

    • Replies: @F0337
    @M_Young

    Well, that's one person's opinion. Virtually no one outside Madison agrees with you, though.

    , @Paleo Liberal
    @M_Young

    My father, a native New Yorker, originally attended UW Madison in the early 1940s because of the History Department. After one winter he transferred to Colombia back in NY.

    The history department has always been good at UW

  65. This damnatio memoriae thing should be revived! Trump could use it on his opponents and make it illegal for the media to mention them. Another great legacy of Western civ.

  66. @PaceLaw
    I’m usually with Steve with pretty much everything he says, but this was a memorial to soldiers who fought against the United States and its government. Why exactly should it exist in the first place??? Once you point out the Benedict Arnold monument anywhere in the United States, please be sure to give me your answer.

    Replies: @Daniel H, @Tom-in-VA, @Diversity Heretic, @Ibound1, @J.Ross, @istevefan, @istevefan, @M_Young, @Big Bill, @vinteuil, @anonymous

    Sectional reconciliation was a very important thing…arguably it was necessary for the US to become a world power. North and South agreeing to bind up the wounds. I’m old enough to remember when that was taught in school (though as a Catholic school kid we were probably a decade behind the times). Time was when ‘Dixie’ was considered a patriotic song’.

  67. @Reg Cæsar
    @Anonymous

    Which ones represent Pinckney Street?


    https://davyandmatty.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/img_0079.jpg

    https://davyandmatty.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/img_0074.jpg

    Replies: @Olorin

    N and S Pinckney cross two aldermanic districts. Rep by Ledell Zellers N, Marsha Rummel S iirc.

    Rummel works for the Department of Revenue (WI), making sure taxpayers keep coughing up for whatever schemes the Dems concoct for their melanin farming plantations. She lives in an apartment or condo in her district overlooking Lake Monona.

    Zellers was an HR chick (English BA and MLS) for the State of Wisconsin Investment Board for many years, retiring iirc in 2014. She lives in a $600K Victorian (actually built before the Civil War) in her district over near Langdon St. on what is known as the Mansion Hill neighborhood.

    https://madisonessentials.com/Article/2016-08/Van-Slyke

    https://madison.com/wsj/news/local/know-your-madisonian-ledell-zellers-renovating-as-an-act-of/article_b97eb0ae-e237-11de-9f3e-001cc4c002e0.html

    Yeah, she’s served on the Madison Trust for Historic Preservation since the mid-1990s.

    Historic preservation for me, but not for thee, Johnny Reb.

    Earlier this year she refused a copy of Heather MacDonald’s book, The War On Cops, offered to all Madison alders by some pro-cop advocates.

    Both Pinckney alders were endorsed by the Green Party. Also iirc they both sponsored some sort of resolution a couple years ago calling for reinstatement of public funding for abortions.

    And both recently voted against the building of a boutique hotel on State Street on the grounds that its plans call for it to be 19 feet taller than city standards allow; the project’s goal is to reduce crime on that part of State St. by increasing foot traffic and let’s be frank gentrifying that part of town.

    Thus we conclude that Zellers doesn’t like gentrification OR cops, while living in one of the most upscale Madison neighborhoods…and complaining about noise and drinking and cars playing loud music, which is to say dogwhistling against the fraternity brothers on Langdon St.

    I’m sure that she’d spearhead a drive to rename Pinckney St. in a nanosecond if it would provide a stage for grandstanding about social justice or whatever.

  68. @Anonymous
    @J.Ross

    Let’s make pot legal, maaan. Cigarettes suck, but weed is awesome.

    Seriously, the apparent push by the elites to legalize pot perplexes me. Due to all of the pro-pot propaganda, many people these days believe that pot has no negative side effects and, in fact, is practically a cure-all for just about anything and everything.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @F0337, @Olorin

    My favorite aspect was Eric Holder’s legally illiterate move of making it simultaneously legal and illegal (this is Chinese law: the state can swoop in at any time, but for the moment you see the mercy of their discretion, so don’t anger them), oh yeah and there’s a registry, so five years from now when you want to buy a firearm you won’t be able to.

  69. Why am I getting the impression that PaceLaw is really young and has not been in a war?

    • Replies: @William Badwhite
    @J.Ross

    And also likely an immigrant or descended from immigrants who arrived post 1865. People who had ancestors here at that time, whether Confederate or Union, understand the whole reconciliation thing as well as the complexity of the issues. That is, assuming they had literate ancestors that wrote about these matters.

    More recent arrivals have received the sum total of their "Civil War" knowledge from the leftist propaganda machines.

    He's just another internet loudmouth/faux tough guy. My list of "commenters to ignore" just got longer.

    Replies: @John Gruskos

    , @Uncle Remus
    @J.Ross

    Either a child of recent immigrants, or of moronic barbarians for whom history is a tabula rasa. It
    is interesting that he can't be taught, despite the efforts of other commentators. And he displays his
    ignorance and vacuity with such pride!

  70. @PaceLaw
    @Reg Cæsar

    Interesting observations Reg Caesar. In fact, I would say the biggest difference between Southerners and Northerners was that the Southerners completely lacked the respect for the humanity of the “Negroes” as opposed to the Northerners. Please acknowledge the abolitionists of the North and their efforts. The Southerners viewed “Negroes” as not much more than beast of burden while the Northerners saw them as people with souls.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Samuel Skinner, @RVBlake, @Reg Cæsar

    In fact, I would say the biggest difference between Southerners and Northerners was that the Southerners completely lacked the respect for the humanity of the “Negroes” as opposed to the Northerners.

    Who called them Svigors and rioted at the thought of having to fight for them. You do not know what you are talking about.

  71. @PaceLaw
    @J.Ross

    Somehow I do not believe that Isis, Al Queda or our other enemies adhere to this philosophy. Time to let go of yesteryear.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @F0337, @Tex, @res

    Because yeah that’s a great basis for our cultural decusions.
    Troll.

  72. @Len
    So the Madison city council and DJ Trump have something in common: They both prefer people who weren't captured.


    And jfc, Paul Soglin is STILL the mayor of Madison.

    Replies: @Olorin

    Pinko Paul’s leaving his third non-consecutive gig as mayor (this one since 2011) and is running for Governor this year.

    https://madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/madison-mayor-paul-soglin-announces-he-will-not-seek-re/article_e549143f-fce3-5173-a482-fadfacaad308.html

    His real gig however is with Epic Software, a massive and powerful privately held closed-to-sunshine health care management software company just south of Madison, renowned for being one of the worst employers in Dane County from a workers’ rights perspective.

    It’s owned by billionaire Judy Faulkner.

    https://madison.com/ct/news/local/her-way-epic-systems-ceo-judy-faulkner-talks-about-trusting/article_7fafd560-d5fd-5a7f-8ef8-59d6bd4cf452.html

    https://madison.com/ct/news/local/govt-and-politics/epic-systems-attorney-company-s-arbitration-agreements-are-legal-do/article_43769eec-49bc-546d-9ac4-b9d30ea0294b.html

    I’ve wondered what overlap might exist between Faulkner’s automation of information-for-megaprofit of the ills flesh is heir to and the statistical analysis of these by individuals like Christine Blasey Ford’s mentor, Helena Chmura Kraemer (who quantifies things like the economics of when to shove someone out of health care and into palliative care).

    Suffice it to say the New World Order of turning your very biological existence into pixels managed for megaprofit by cabals of feminists who operate outside of any public scrutiny seems to be the path things are taking. After all, as liberated women possessing the maximum of goddesslike attributes, they know best what is true or not, and whether you should live or die–whether the topic is abortion, cancer, or a beer party back in high school.

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    @Olorin

    I live in Madison, a few miles from the suburban Epic campus. I have known plenty of people who have worked at Epic. Some of their practices should be illegal, but the Republican Supreme Court sided with Epic.

    Some of their practices, such as blatant age discrimination, ARE illegal, but they are a big company and buy off the politicians so they can get away with it.

    The irony is old man Soglin being the spokesperson for Epic was not lost on me.

    Replies: @Olorin

  73. @PaceLaw
    @J.Ross

    Somehow I do not believe that Isis, Al Queda or our other enemies adhere to this philosophy. Time to let go of yesteryear.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @F0337, @Tex, @res

    I do not believe that Isis, Al Queda or our other enemies adhere to this philosophy.

    Your solution is that we should prove ourselves no better than Isis or Al Qaeda.

    Sadly, you’re getting your wish. Enjoy the new world you’re inheriting.

  74. Anonymous[383] • Disclaimer says:

    A wider point is that after the elapse of a certain period of time – generally when several generations have passed – and there are no personal known living connections to the deceased, the ‘sanctity’ and ‘integrity’ of graves and the human remains therein becomes a theoretical point, and more of a question of ‘land management’ than anything.

    Inevitably, as time passes, the personal connections to particular graves are lost, as are the reverence for the bones.

    • Replies: @Cortes
    @Anonymous

    Well said.

    Cemeteries ought to recycle ordinary plots/lairs after, say, fifty years. Where townships have dwindled or ceased to exist, remains could be respectfully be assigned to an ossuary. I imagine that there may be some decontamination required to enable former cemetery grounds to be used for more productive purposes (removal of residue from embalming materials, for example) but “perpetual” use of burial ground is a nonsense.

    Replies: @Peter Frost

    , @Diversity Heretic
    @Anonymous

    Tell that to the people who continue to visit the Commonwealth War Graves in France and Belgium, or to the people who visit the military cemeteries maintained by the American Battle Monuments Commission. In a real society with a real sense of history, people understand that they are the transmitters of a culture bequeathed to them by ancestors (widely construed) who lie in cemeteries and that they should pass it on to their posterity. Tearing down memorials is a way of breaking that chain, which is exactly what the type of people who sit on the Madison City Council want to do.

  75. 140 actual characters removed by 140 virtual characters?

  76. @Another Canadian
    This death camp in Madison doesn't appear to have been a regular prison. 120 dead from 9 Alabama companies in a few months according to this 1882 newspaper story. It appears a list of the dead wasn't even published prior to 1882.

    https://www.newspapers.com/clip/12702112/notice_of_death_of_joel_browder_and/

    Replies: @F0337

    There’s a Confederate Cemetery nearby to where I live. For now, anyway. Once I took a stroll through it. Boys–generally 17, 18, and 19 years old–and all very very far from home.

  77. @PaceLaw
    @Veracitor

    1. No my friend, I do not believe the Confederates considered themselves to be Americans. They thought themselves to be a breed apart with their own racial caste system.

    2. Nice try friend, but I can’t say that I’ve ever seen in my entire lifetime a German or Japanese POW site or memorial in this great country of ours. And I’ve traveled a great bit of it.

    3. The NVA (seriously?!?!) and post-war Canadians in 1816 are pretty sad examples for your point. Just saying . . .

    4. ?

    Replies: @F0337, @Bill P, @Tex

    Nice try friend, but I can’t say that I’ve ever seen in my entire lifetime a German or Japanese POW site or memorial in this great country of ours.

    We treated World War II POWs far better than the good folks of Madison, Wisconsin did Civil War soldiers. Hence, no need for POW cemeteries.

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    @F0337

    Not true.

    The people of Madison treated the POWs with great kindness.

    Camp Randall was simply not equipped to handle a very large number of sick and wounded POWs.

    There is now a college football stadium at Camp Randall, where the Wisconsin Badgers play.

    Countless volunteers from the city of Madison volunteered countless hours to care for the sick and wounded, donating clothes, etc. Many, if not most, of the volunteers had family members fighting on the Union side.

    Had it not been for the volunteers, there would have been far more deaths.

    After the war, citizens of Madison took it upon themselves to honor the dead, until very recently.

    The way Madison treated these soldiers from that time until very recently was wonderful, and was commended by the Daughters of the Confederacy.

    I have been in Madison for a number of years. This is the first time I have been ashamed of the city.

  78. @PaceLaw
    @Veracitor

    1. No my friend, I do not believe the Confederates considered themselves to be Americans. They thought themselves to be a breed apart with their own racial caste system.

    2. Nice try friend, but I can’t say that I’ve ever seen in my entire lifetime a German or Japanese POW site or memorial in this great country of ours. And I’ve traveled a great bit of it.

    3. The NVA (seriously?!?!) and post-war Canadians in 1816 are pretty sad examples for your point. Just saying . . .

    4. ?

    Replies: @F0337, @Bill P, @Tex

    Just because you haven’t seen a German POW’ s grave doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

    There’s one in Fort Lawton in Seattle that I’ve seen. The soldier committed suicide when he learned he’d be handed over to the Soviets for slave labor after the war ended. There’s also a memorial to an Italian POW — a broken column. The Italian was lynched by a group of black soldiers after he beat a black in a fistfight.

    Unfortunately, it’s a good bet that the Seattle city council would eliminate these monuments given the opportunity.

    • Replies: @PaceLaw
    @Bill P

    Interesting note about the Italian POW. Was this in Seattle as well? Frankly, I find this story a little hard to believe. Black soldiers lynching a (white) Italian soldier in the 1940s and getting away with it? Come on man!

    Replies: @Joe Schmoe, @Bill P

    , @res
    @Bill P


    There’s also a memorial to an Italian POW — a broken column. The Italian was lynched by a group of black soldiers after he beat a black in a fistfight.
     
    Thanks. Have to remember that the next time I encounter moral preening about lynching. More at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Lawton_riot

    The military policemen restored order without taking anyone into custody. Later, they claimed it had been too dark to identify any of the participants in the riot. The next morning, Lomax, accompanied by a black MP, discovered the body of prisoner Guglielmo Olivotto, hanging from a noose on the obstacle course.
     
    The coda is that in the 2000's the resulting convictions became a cause célèbre ending with

    At the military ceremony, Assistant Army Secretary Ronald James offered a tribute to the wrongly convicted men, including an apology and the presentation of belated honorable discharges.
     
    So they managed to morally preen by forgiving participants in a lynching. Fascinating. Who, whom? is such a powerful idea.

    Replies: @PaceLaw

  79. anonymous[201] • Disclaimer says:

    First Sergeant Anton Hilberath, German Army, is the only German prisoner of war from World War II to be buried in Arlingtion National Cemetery. He was probably captured in 1942 in North Africa.

    Anything else about Hilberath requires plenty of patience and a translator. After a few dozen hours on the internet and couple conversations with older friends with military backgrounds, I pieced together some thoughts.

    Hilberath died April 21, 1946 while working on Maryland’s Eastern Shore’s farms. Wait, that was a year after the war’s end. What were German prisoners still doing here? Turns out nobody was in a hurry to repatriate POWs across the Atlantic.

    How did Hilberath end up at Arlington? Under the Geneva Convention, prisoners were given military funerals at the nearest government cemetery. At the time that was Arlington.

    Maybe his remains should be reinterred in Wisconsin, the most German state in the union.

    • Replies: @William Badwhite
    @anonymous

    In the mid 1980's I met a former German POW who was living in Dayton, VA. He had been a POW in a camp near Norfolk and when the war was over, was not immediately repatriated. His home in Germany was in the east, now behind the wall. He had no place to go.

    He had distant relatives living in the Shenandoah Valley (lots of German-descended people there) and went to live with them and was still there 40 years later, working as a farm laborer. I don't recall the specifics of how he was allowed to stay in Virginia, maybe it was just botched paperwork or a similar oversight.

    His English was perfect with a slight Virginia drawl to it. He was extremely grateful to the United States, knew full well how lucky he was not being turned over to the Soviets, and considered receiving citizenship to be the greatest day of his life. I don't remember his exact age but recall he seemed middle-aged and was well-built and sturdy. Because of this, I assume he was just a kid/teenager when captured.

    I'd like to know what happened to him and if he ever visited home once the wall came down. I'm sure PaceLaw would like to have him deported (but have someone else do the dirty work).

    Replies: @PaceLaw, @dwb

  80. @NJ Transit Commuter
    Never underestimate the extremes people will go to in hysterias. You joke about digging up the bodies of the Confederate soldiers, Steve, but this has happened before. When the US entered WWI, idiots dug up the remains of the Hessians who died in the Battle of Trenton and dumped them in the Delaware River.

    Replies: @Diversity Heretic, @Pericles, @Romanian, @njguy73, @Chris Mallory

    The Commies in power in Spain are apparently going to dig up Franco.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    @Pericles

    Is he still dead?

    Replies: @Pericles

  81. @istevefan
    @Diversity Heretic


    White Americans are being both symbolically and literally displaced and dispossessed from the country their ancestors built.
     
    What you write is true. But eventually if White Americans and other Whites in the Euro world continue to allow this to happen, you really can't sympathize with them. No one is holding a gun to their collective heads. In fact in most Euro nations, USA included, a majority of the whites probably do not want what is happening to them to happen. Yet they are cowered into submission, not by force of arms, but buy a vocal, unarmed minority who use words. Words!

    I understand the consequences of social ostracism, but one would hope that the descendants of the great peoples of Europe would require more than words to take them down.

    Replies: @F0337

    No one is holding a gun to their collective heads.

    May I introduce you to MSM propaganda. Note that it takes the form of entertainment.

    Yet they are cowered into submission, not by force of arms, but buy a vocal, unarmed minority who use words. Words!

    It’s not words. It’s audio-visual ‘entertainment’ and it’s coupled with the full force of law, corporate policy, the educational establishment, and every single organization you can name as well as what masquerades as “news” and “facts” in our society.

    It creates what people ‘know’ to be ‘truth’. It’s a full-court-press juggernaut, 24/7/365, including far more than “words” and meanwhile please tell me why guns would ever be needed, as effective and pervasive as it is.

  82. You let 140 POWs die in your POW camp, Madisonians, it’s not too much to ask that a simple marker listing the dead POWs names be allowed to not be obliterated.

    What about the dead bodies of the 140 POWs who died for the False Narrative of Southern secession? Can you allow their mortal remains to pollute the moral purity of your cemetery? Maybe the POWs should be dug up and their dust scattered to the winds?

    Unusual passion from Steve
    is this a guest post?
    What happened to the usual aloof insouciance?

    Cant be too surprised by this latest example of leftist intolerance when that great conservative Nimrata Haley rushed to tear down Confederate flags in “her” state of South Punjab.

    Even those paragons of tolerance in Cairo Egypt have left unmolested a cemetery of French soldiers killed in Napoleon’s 1798 conquest of Egypt.

  83. @PaceLaw
    @Daniel H

    I’m sorry friend, but remember Fort Sumter? The renegade Confederate States of America declared war on the United States of America, not the other way around. Facts.

    Replies: @Pericles, @Samuel Skinner, @pyrrhus

    I’m informed that Pace University School of Law is categorized as ‘guido law’ as opposed to Big Law. So I guess there is a dearth of ambulances to chase at the moment.

  84. @PaceLaw
    @Diversity Heretic

    So my friend, what do you say about Antifa? They position themselves to be the Confederates of yesteryear. They are against the official government of United States and are willing to take violent action against it. Would you be willing to support Antifa monuments in 50 to 100 years?

    Replies: @Pericles, @fnn, @Samuel Skinner, @roo_ster

    Would you be willing to support Antifa monuments in 50 to 100 years?

    Irrelevant, since Antifa are privileged.

    I’m afraid even a degree of some sort from Pace is sufficient to count as privileged, so your remains will be twerked upon as well.

  85. @J.Ross
    You know, every freaking stone in every cemetery brings up memories and realities that are "not so pleasant" (like, "my loved one is permanently gone").

    Replies: @El Dato

    Not for permarevolters.

    They think “my enemies will soon be underneath there”.

  86. If there is one thing we have learned over the past couple of weeks, it is that these people are cockroaches. I wish I could say I’m surprised, but I’m not.

  87. @Anonymous
    @J.Ross

    Let’s make pot legal, maaan. Cigarettes suck, but weed is awesome.

    Seriously, the apparent push by the elites to legalize pot perplexes me. Due to all of the pro-pot propaganda, many people these days believe that pot has no negative side effects and, in fact, is practically a cure-all for just about anything and everything.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @F0337, @Olorin

    Yields a passive and compliant populace, what’s not to love..

  88. @Veracitor
    @Tom-in-VA

    Yeah, and also. . .

    Because of Appomattox. As General Grant said after Lee surrendered with all his men and Grant released them all on parole not to thereafter bear arms against the Union, "The Confederates were now our countrymen, and we did not want to exult over their downfall."

    Desecrating the graves of your countrymen is a crime and a shameful policy. If those who personally suffered the incidents of war at the living hands of those Confederate soldiers could subordinate their justifiable thirst for revenge to their desire for honorable reconciliation, we who are their descendants and heirs can certainly respect their decision a century and a half later. Anyone who says otherwise is a barbarian and lacks all honor.

    Replies: @F0337, @njguy73, @Anonymous

    we who are their descendants and heirs

    Sadly, this description now encompasses a small minority of “Americans”.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    @F0337

    Those of us who are descended from later immigrants inherited US history, both the good and the bad, along with our privileges. I see the American Revolution and the Civil War as part of my history, thoigh my ancestors didn't fight in them, because they were part of creating the nation where I can live a life that is exponentially preferable to the lives lived by many people, particularly women, in places like Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, and so on.

    Replies: @Charles Pewitt

  89. Alternative Conspiracy Theory: Eliminate knowledge of the Civil War, more slowly eliminate knowledge of slavery, eventually tell the blacks to STFU and listen to their White Female/Hispanic/Asian progressive overlords?

    • Replies: @awry
    @Redneck farmer

    I don''t see that happening. Blacks are constantly reminded that they must get ever more angry about slavery 150 years ago and the evil whites oppressing them to this day. It's diversionary tactics of course so they won't protest immigration that hurts them economically just as bad (or more) as blue collar whites.

  90. @PaceLaw
    @Diversity Heretic

    So my friend, what do you say about Antifa? They position themselves to be the Confederates of yesteryear. They are against the official government of United States and are willing to take violent action against it. Would you be willing to support Antifa monuments in 50 to 100 years?

    Replies: @Pericles, @fnn, @Samuel Skinner, @roo_ster

    No, no. Antifa is volunteer militia for Big Capital and the American Empire’s state security organs. They break a few “corporate” windows and some pretend their true mission is *not* about intimidating anti-regime dissidents. Their Wall Street bosses don’t care that the Antifa nominally adhere to some crackpot ideology of “anarcho-communism,” they only care that they attack the “fascists” when so ordered.

    https://www.propublica.org/leadership/

  91. Massachusetts will take down its only Confederate monument during the Columbus Day (2017) weekend, according to state officials.

    The memorial, dedicated to 13 Confederate soldiers who died while imprisoned at Fort Warren, is located on Georges Island in Boston Harbor. It has been boarded up since June, when officials began pondering what to do with it.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @CCZ

    This stone isn't even a celebration or glorification of the dead, it's merely a historical marker with a clinical statement of fact. It's really sad to witness this sort of insanity taking hold. Nothing good can possibly come from this sort of nonsense.

    Replies: @vinteuil

  92. @PaceLaw
    @Daniel H

    I’m sorry friend, but remember Fort Sumter? The renegade Confederate States of America declared war on the United States of America, not the other way around. Facts.

    Replies: @Pericles, @Samuel Skinner, @pyrrhus

    John Brown predates Sumter. Dixie views murdering civilians and celebrating it was the promise of more to come as a casus beli.

  93. @PaceLaw
    @Diversity Heretic

    So my friend, what do you say about Antifa? They position themselves to be the Confederates of yesteryear. They are against the official government of United States and are willing to take violent action against it. Would you be willing to support Antifa monuments in 50 to 100 years?

    Replies: @Pericles, @fnn, @Samuel Skinner, @roo_ster

    Antifa are not remotely like the Confederates. For starters, they aren’t against the US government- they are blatantly supported by local left wing politicians. They aren’t even against the federal government- they certain support the fbi investigating trump.

    They are a political movement to seize power, not a secessionist movement to carve out a new nation.

    • Replies: @F0337
    @Samuel Skinner

    Yep, the so-called "Antifa" are the foot soldiers of the Establishment.

  94. @M_Young
    @Dan Hayes

    Although probably the best history department, as far as grad school goes, in the country.

    Replies: @F0337, @Paleo Liberal

    Well, that’s one person’s opinion. Virtually no one outside Madison agrees with you, though.

    • Agree: Dan Hayes
  95. @Reg Cæsar
    @Diversity Heretic


    They fought for the right to secede from a government that no longer served their best interests...
     
    ...which they saw as diversity. The biggest difference between Southerners and other white Americans is their intense love of the Negro, and their inability to live without him close by. Vermont and Idaho's total whiteness is a bug, not a feature.

    The Union victory replaced the voluntary association of states...
     
    Someone has never heard of the Whisky Rebellion, or, for that matter, the Fugitive Slave Acts, which allowed states to be invaded by outsiders from other states. Sovereignty for me, not for thee.

    If you wanted to keep your beloved Africans at home-- your home-- you could have built a Berlin Wall along the Ohio and Potomac. You'd be in good company.


    https://i.pinimg.com/474x/e6/c8/e5/e6c8e55479e723580e6fe907e7f1ae8d--berlin-heute-berlin-wall.jpg

    Replies: @PaceLaw, @Samuel Skinner

    …which they saw as diversity. The biggest difference between Southerners and other white Americans is their intense love of the Negro, and their inability to live without him close by. Vermont and Idaho’s total whiteness is a bug, not a feature.

    Yes, because all white people are exactly the same and Ireland is still part of the UK. The North was flooded by white immigrants that were not English; diversity was as much a part of it as the South.

    Someone has never heard of the Whisky Rebellion, or, for that matter, the Fugitive Slave Acts, which allowed states to be invaded by outsiders from other states. Sovereignty for me, not for thee.

    The Whisky Rebellion was an internal uprising, not a conflict between multiple states.

    As for the latter, typical Yankee. Not only do you break the deal, you insist this makes you a more moral person. If the only thing you desire is power, it is all you will receive until in the end your line dies.

    Article 4, Section 2
    No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, But shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Samuel Skinner


    The Whisky Rebellion was an internal uprising, not a conflict between multiple states.

     

    It was in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, as Shay's was in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. The interference came from outside those jurisdictions.

    As for the latter, typical Yankee. Not only do you break the deal, you insist this makes you a more moral person

     

    I am not a "Yankee". I live far outside New England. Many of my paternal ancestors were, though, and sometimes I have pie for breakfast. And nowhere did I say or imply anything about a "more moral person", a nonsensical, even un-Christian concept. You're just projecting.

    Article 4, Section 2
    No Person held to Service or Labour in one State

     

    Are Negroes "Persons", or livestock? If the free (i.e., white) states declared them to be non-persons, then there would be no issue. The planters would have to take it to the Supreme Court.

    Article 4, Section 4
    The United States shall guarantee to every state in this union a republican form of government...

    At the time of ratification, every state had a white majority. By the fourth Census, that was not true of three states, and others threatened to join them. That alone sounds like a broken deal. And a Negro-majority jurisdiction sounds nothing like a republic. The Roman Empire was diverse, the Roman Republic far less so.

    Note the shifting definition of "person". They're whole persons when they need to be "delivered up on Claim" (an exercise of power, by the way), three-fifths when toted up to inflate representation, and non-persons in other legal proceedings. Whichever is most convenient at the moment.

    You should carry on your discussion with this "Pace Law" character. At least you have one point of agreement-- that it is good to have African Negroes in America.

    Replies: @Samuel Skinner

  96. @PaceLaw
    @Reg Cæsar

    Interesting observations Reg Caesar. In fact, I would say the biggest difference between Southerners and Northerners was that the Southerners completely lacked the respect for the humanity of the “Negroes” as opposed to the Northerners. Please acknowledge the abolitionists of the North and their efforts. The Southerners viewed “Negroes” as not much more than beast of burden while the Northerners saw them as people with souls.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Samuel Skinner, @RVBlake, @Reg Cæsar

    Yes, if you define humanity as ‘political opinions of Northerners’, then Southerners didn’t view blacks that way. Given the current state of South Africa all this shows is that Northerners are insane and Southeners care more about their children then sucking up to Northern propaganda.

    If you define humanity in the way most humans do, then Southerners certain did; the South was the only slave society in human history where the slave population grew from its own fertility.

  97. @PaceLaw
    @Diversity Heretic

    So my friend, what do you say about Antifa? They position themselves to be the Confederates of yesteryear. They are against the official government of United States and are willing to take violent action against it. Would you be willing to support Antifa monuments in 50 to 100 years?

    Replies: @Pericles, @fnn, @Samuel Skinner, @roo_ster

    Wrong. Antifa is the creature of tbe ruling class.

  98. @Samuel Skinner
    @PaceLaw

    Antifa are not remotely like the Confederates. For starters, they aren't against the US government- they are blatantly supported by local left wing politicians. They aren't even against the federal government- they certain support the fbi investigating trump.

    They are a political movement to seize power, not a secessionist movement to carve out a new nation.

    Replies: @F0337

    Yep, the so-called “Antifa” are the foot soldiers of the Establishment.

  99. It wsas a long time ago. No one alive today was there. The people who erected the monument had a good reason for doing so. Their wishes and decision should be respected and it should be left intact. It is part of the historical landscape and fabric in madison and references an important era in American history.

    I always thought liberals felt such things to be important and worth preserving. Today they seem constantly enraged and must always have something to rail against and knock over.

  100. @Olorin
    @Len

    Pinko Paul's leaving his third non-consecutive gig as mayor (this one since 2011) and is running for Governor this year.

    https://madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/madison-mayor-paul-soglin-announces-he-will-not-seek-re/article_e549143f-fce3-5173-a482-fadfacaad308.html

    His real gig however is with Epic Software, a massive and powerful privately held closed-to-sunshine health care management software company just south of Madison, renowned for being one of the worst employers in Dane County from a workers' rights perspective.

    It's owned by billionaire Judy Faulkner.

    https://madison.com/ct/news/local/her-way-epic-systems-ceo-judy-faulkner-talks-about-trusting/article_7fafd560-d5fd-5a7f-8ef8-59d6bd4cf452.html

    https://madison.com/ct/news/local/govt-and-politics/epic-systems-attorney-company-s-arbitration-agreements-are-legal-do/article_43769eec-49bc-546d-9ac4-b9d30ea0294b.html

    I've wondered what overlap might exist between Faulkner's automation of information-for-megaprofit of the ills flesh is heir to and the statistical analysis of these by individuals like Christine Blasey Ford's mentor, Helena Chmura Kraemer (who quantifies things like the economics of when to shove someone out of health care and into palliative care).

    Suffice it to say the New World Order of turning your very biological existence into pixels managed for megaprofit by cabals of feminists who operate outside of any public scrutiny seems to be the path things are taking. After all, as liberated women possessing the maximum of goddesslike attributes, they know best what is true or not, and whether you should live or die--whether the topic is abortion, cancer, or a beer party back in high school.

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal

    I live in Madison, a few miles from the suburban Epic campus. I have known plenty of people who have worked at Epic. Some of their practices should be illegal, but the Republican Supreme Court sided with Epic.

    Some of their practices, such as blatant age discrimination, ARE illegal, but they are a big company and buy off the politicians so they can get away with it.

    The irony is old man Soglin being the spokesperson for Epic was not lost on me.

    • Replies: @Olorin
    @Paleo Liberal

    You are correct about the WI SC, about Epic (SC also ruled Billionaire Judy can require all workers to give up the right to trial by jury as a condition of employment), and also that the preening Dane County morality that passes as super liberal, left, or progressive is often 1A rapacious shekel-grubbing behind closed doors. Sometimes it's pro-bidness, sometimes it's flogging the slaves on the tax plantation.

    I'm of the view that this is why they excoriate white men. On the one hand they depend on the proven productivity and orderliness of Wisconsin white men for their shekels--whether it's through the private or public sectors--and terrific standard of community living. On the other, admitting that would pinch, so scapegoating ensues. I see it as highly primitive religious thinking.

    This is also why I've never felt comfortable with election-cycle meme-project of talking about "leftism/communism/socialism" as the entire problem politically, socially, and economically.

    For the problem is also the Repugs, who resemble not in the least their founding ancestors in Ripon who opposed the Kansas-Nebraska Act, and so created a new party out of the riven Whigs and Dems. And btw laid the groundwork for the Civil War. All because some eastern railroad men wanted to win a bit on iron horses.

    But now we're supposed to enjoy Donald Trump's command and subversion of the MSM, get our aprons in a heave, and go vote straight R in November.

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal

  101. I live in Madison.

    Please be aware that some of us disagree with the Common Council’s oh so trendy decision. They want to virtue signal as to how anti Confederate they are.

    Historians show that the good people of Madison aided the Confederate POWs as much as possible, treating them the way they would want their own kin to be treated if their kid were to be captured by Confederates. The good Union supporting people of Madison probably saved the lives of hundreds of POWs with their kindness.

    That probably explains why the leading voice against removal was a fellow Stu Levitan. Levitan is an excellent historian, and has wrote the definitive book on the history of Madison. He is also chair of the Landmarks Commission. As chair of the Landmarks Commission Levitan did everything in his power to stop this horrific, but trendy, action.

    • Replies: @Olorin
    @Paleo Liberal

    Uh...that's not what I heard about Stu on this topic.

    https://davidblaska.com/2018/07/23/confederate-rest-stone-is-too-big-for-stu-levitan-its-got-to-go/comment-page-1/

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal

  102. @PaceLaw
    @Reg Cæsar

    Interesting observations Reg Caesar. In fact, I would say the biggest difference between Southerners and Northerners was that the Southerners completely lacked the respect for the humanity of the “Negroes” as opposed to the Northerners. Please acknowledge the abolitionists of the North and their efforts. The Southerners viewed “Negroes” as not much more than beast of burden while the Northerners saw them as people with souls.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Samuel Skinner, @RVBlake, @Reg Cæsar

    That’s a sweeping description of the opinions of Northerners during the Civil War. Capt. Frederick Benteen, who commanded a surviving battalion of the 7th US Cavalry at the Little Bighorn in 1876, was a colonel in the Union Army during the Civil War. He stated that he never saw an Abolitionist in the Union ranks during his War service.

  103. This is funny.

    Just the other day everyone was having an enormous circle-jerk about how amazing and beautiful Wisconsin is.

    One Confederate memorial gets erased and now everyone is damning it as the 9th circle of Hell.

    How the worm turns!

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    Howard, it's Wisconsin. I recall that conversation: the point was that it's a hair better than Michigan. Go on, tell us about the Dells.

  104. There could be Cherokee, Choctaw,or Lumbee indians amongst the buried ,Better find out Madisonian libtards, wouldn’t want to desecrate an indian burial site would we?

  105. @J.Ross
    @Diversity Heretic

    The Reds in the Spanish Civil War also had the disgusting habit of using corpse propaganda, they would mock Catholic beliefs by digging up nuns and setting them upright on the sidewalk by churches. Catholics believe that the body of a truly saintly person will sometimes not decay as a miraculous proof of its former user's spiritual refinement.
    And, y'know, it's a dead body. It becomes increasingly tempting to call these folks crazy.
    It's a kind of deep pettiness, a pathetic strength, like abusing hostages. It would cost nothing to show some respect and instead they have to grind the dust into the eyes of the conquered.

    Replies: @Big Bill

    Speaking of Spanish Civil War Reds, Madison has a memorial to the commies of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade. “It stands in James Madison Park — just a few feet from the historic Gates of Heaven synagogue.”

    As the story explains, Madison Jews (complete with Klezmer band!) and Commies rallied at the memorial when it was graffitied a year ago.

    The article is a must-read. Compare and contrast:

    https://madison.com/ct/opinion/column/john_nichols/when-swastikas-appear-madison-cries-they-shall-not-pass/article_7c27fc4c-4d08-5fc6-be9c-a5e47104d465.html

    • Replies: @Olorin
    @Big Bill

    Madison Common Council really should vote John Nichols a perpetual sinecure as Most Useful Idiot in the city. He is 400 lbs of cringe packed in a 98-lb-weakling bag.

    The reason the ALB memorial was placed next to Gates of Heaven (which was moved to James Madison Park from its original location) is that Clarence Kailin was a Jew, not because Clarence Kailin was a Commie. (Not that I'm trying to draw a false distinction.)

    https://isthmus.com/archive/from-the-archives/unrepentant-red-clarence-kailin-looks-back-on-a-lifetime-of-fighting-the-good-fight/

    Also at: http://archive.is/KRdhn

    Gates of Heaven (Wikipedia)
    http://archive.is/A13i9

    Note that the synagogue was built by German Jews--and designed by the same architect who designed Madison aldercritter Ledell Zellers' mansion--but by the 1980s was frequented by Ashkenazi Jews who had mostly replaced Judaism with Holocaustianity. Reconstructionists are iirc the sect of Judaism who least believe in God.

    Rabbi Hannah Rosenthal was married for many years to former Dane County executive (head of county) Rick Phelps. She dined out for decades on her dad having spent some time at Buchenwald. Her career at Barack Obama's/Hillary Clinton's State Department is worth looking up.

    http://archive.is/UH8IH

    Phelps was followed by Kathleen Falk, who was being groomed by the Dems for much bigger political things in the 1990s. Phelps went on to work for an enormous Chicago bank that invests in real estate development (gentrification) in WI (M&I/BMO Harris). His Wikipedia entry has been scrubbed of such facts in the past several years.

    http://archive.is/5zXHC

    He ran for US House in District 2...but lost to Tammy Baldwin, another gal who was being groomed for bigger things.

    These are not "leftists" or "communists" or "progressives." They are the Establishment elite of the FIRE and IP/MSM economy.

    FWIW, here's the klezmer band you noted.

    http://archive.is/sEZKv
    http://archive.is/smgF9

    , @J.Ross
    @Big Bill

    I have sat in at a presentation of Spanish Civil War fanboys at a local university, where they give lectures, show movie clips, and award a scholarship for an essay. It really bears out the magnificent Orwell quote above. Self-awareness prevents physical description. The group is divided into Trots and unreconstructed Stalinists who want you to know what a lying, objectively pro-fascist, bourgeois wrecker George Orwell was. The highlight is a clip of a fluffy propaganda movie that clearly presents the situation in oversimplistic terms (which generates a fierce debate on the floor about which subset of Reds obstructed which piece of international aid).

  106. @NJ Transit Commuter
    Never underestimate the extremes people will go to in hysterias. You joke about digging up the bodies of the Confederate soldiers, Steve, but this has happened before. When the US entered WWI, idiots dug up the remains of the Hessians who died in the Battle of Trenton and dumped them in the Delaware River.

    Replies: @Diversity Heretic, @Pericles, @Romanian, @njguy73, @Chris Mallory

    The republicans in Civil War Spain dug up nuns and priests.

    Also, I believe Nathan Bedford Forrest was dug up recently, but by the city. Or was it just being discussed?

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    @Romanian

    Ironic, because he later disavowed the Klan and worked with Black Southern organizations to encourage Black advancement.

    Replies: @Romanian

  107. Of course we know what this is really all about. It’s so that Madison’s leaders don’t have to think or talk about the worst in the country black-white race gaps present in its own city.

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    @countenance

    Not quite.

    This is to show how woke the Madison leaders are, so they can strike a blow against the bro-Confederates.

    I grew up in the south, having moved there from the north. In the late 1960s and the 1970s I wondered why so many southerners were unable to put the Covil War behind them.

    Now I wonder why the woke Madison leaders are unable to put the Civil War behind them after over 150 years.

  108. Wouldn’t it be interesting if all these people destroying CSA memorials and statues were to be haunted by the ghosts of Confederate soldiers for the rest of their lives?

  109. @PaceLaw
    @Daniel H

    I’m sorry friend, but remember Fort Sumter? The renegade Confederate States of America declared war on the United States of America, not the other way around. Facts.

    Replies: @Pericles, @Samuel Skinner, @pyrrhus

    The North had blockaded Southern ports, which was an act of war….Take your propaganda and stick it where it might be believed…

  110. @PaceLaw
    I’m usually with Steve with pretty much everything he says, but this was a memorial to soldiers who fought against the United States and its government. Why exactly should it exist in the first place??? Once you point out the Benedict Arnold monument anywhere in the United States, please be sure to give me your answer.

    Replies: @Daniel H, @Tom-in-VA, @Diversity Heretic, @Ibound1, @J.Ross, @istevefan, @istevefan, @M_Young, @Big Bill, @vinteuil, @anonymous

    I’m usually with Steve with pretty much everything he says, but this was a memorial to soldiers who fought against the United States and its government. Why exactly should it exist in the first place???

    It is a tombstone. In Western civilization we erect them over the graves of our beloved who died. Saint or sinner, mass murderer or statesman, gangster or priest. Even babies born dead are given tombstones.

    Some tombstones, like the Madison tombstone, are quite simple and merely list the names of the dead. Others are larger and more elaborate.

    I am curious. What do people in your country do to remember the dead? Anything?

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Big Bill


    I am curious. What do people in your country do to remember the dead? Anything?

     

    Feed the birdies!


    But WHY Can’t I have a Tibetan Sky Burial?
  111. @PaceLaw
    @J.Ross

    Somehow I do not believe that Isis, Al Queda or our other enemies adhere to this philosophy. Time to let go of yesteryear.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @F0337, @Tex, @res

    Somehow I do not believe that Isis, Al Queda or our other enemies adhere to this philosophy. Time to let go of yesteryear.

    If the standard of civilized behavior between Americans is whatever ISIS would do, then the next civil war is going to be very ugly indeed. Vandalism is just the start.

    • Replies: @sayless
    @Tex

    ,I do not believe that Isis or al -queda,

    Are they our teachers?

  112. @J.Ross
    @Reg Cæsar

    Supposedly during the Cold war the Red Chinese supplied a massive amount of heroin for the American market, on the straightforward motive of promoting societal decay. Whether that's true or conflated with the more profit-interested Golden Triangle to the south I'm not sure.

    Replies: @The Alarmist

    “Supposedly during the Cold war the Red Chinese supplied a massive amount of heroin for the American market ….”

    Do you really think The Company would let the ChiComs cut in on their turf?

  113. @istevefan
    @PaceLaw

    Do people realize there are German WW2 cemeteries in Russia? I've long known about German cemeteries in France and Western Europe. But Russia? The Germans were very brutal towards Slavs, and the Slavs suffered greatly during WW2. Yet there are German cemeteries in Russia that continue to add new graves as old remains are discovered.

    If the Russians can allow the Germans to be buried in a dignified manner, why can't the residents of Madison do the same for the Confederates?

    Replies: @PaceLaw, @Dan Hayes, @anonymous, @Tex, @International Jew, @Reg Cæsar

    I stumbled across a few isolated grave markers for German soldiers around Prague. Some were quite new.

    After the war the German population was expelled from Czechoslovakia. It was a drastic, but quite logical solution to the whole “Sudeten” question that had been so pivotal in bringing the war about in the first place. It also imposed a lot of suffering on the expelled. In the ’90s the Czechs and Germans had to do a lot of high-level diplomacy to resolve the bitterness from the expulsions. This was an era when the Czechs were looking to join the EU. Resolving old grudges and having some shared sense of European values was important.

    That was the ’90s of course. Today it’s about the shared sense of purpose with whoever shows up from Syria or Afghanistan and crushing the Confederacy by knocking over statues.

  114. @CCZ
    Massachusetts will take down its only Confederate monument during the Columbus Day (2017) weekend, according to state officials.

    The memorial, dedicated to 13 Confederate soldiers who died while imprisoned at Fort Warren, is located on Georges Island in Boston Harbor. It has been boarded up since June, when officials began pondering what to do with it.

    https://d279m997dpfwgl.cloudfront.net/wp/2017/08/0816_confederate-plaque2-1000x570.jpg

    Replies: @Anonymous

    This stone isn’t even a celebration or glorification of the dead, it’s merely a historical marker with a clinical statement of fact. It’s really sad to witness this sort of insanity taking hold. Nothing good can possibly come from this sort of nonsense.

    • Agree: Paleo Liberal
    • Replies: @vinteuil
    @Anonymous


    Nothing good can possibly come from this sort of nonsense.
     
    This is not nonsense. This is the devil, at his exercise.
  115. @PaceLaw
    @Veracitor

    1. No my friend, I do not believe the Confederates considered themselves to be Americans. They thought themselves to be a breed apart with their own racial caste system.

    2. Nice try friend, but I can’t say that I’ve ever seen in my entire lifetime a German or Japanese POW site or memorial in this great country of ours. And I’ve traveled a great bit of it.

    3. The NVA (seriously?!?!) and post-war Canadians in 1816 are pretty sad examples for your point. Just saying . . .

    4. ?

    Replies: @F0337, @Bill P, @Tex

    1. No my friend, I do not believe the Confederates considered themselves to be Americans. They thought themselves to be a breed apart with their own racial caste system.

    That’s top-tier historical illiteracy. The people of the CSA absolutely though they were American, as in Confederate States of AMERICA. The Union position was even more radical, Southerners were so American they weren’t allowed to stop being US citizens.

    2. Nice try friend, but I can’t say that I’ve ever seen in my entire lifetime a German or Japanese POW site or memorial in this great country of ours. And I’ve traveled a great bit of it.

    Travel a little more.

    http://www.texasescapes.com/WorldWarII/POW-Camp-Chapel-Hereford-Texas.htm

    P.O.W. Camp Chapel Restored
    Thanks to an article on the restoration of the Hereford POW Chapel featured in the Lubbock Avalanche (“Avalanche” in West Texas?!- That’s the name) Journal, I went back to see it. The Chapel is now beautiful as it sits in the middle of a lush corn field as opposed the the forlorn look it had just last December. There were two abandoned dogs, more like big puppies, guarding the Chapel.

    And then there’s St. Mary’s church in Umbarger and it’s murals painted by Italian POWs. They are rather proud of the POW art in Umbarger.

    http://www.texasescapes.com/Churches/Umbarger-Texas-St-Marys-Catholic-Church.htm

    The Chapel has been beautifully restored. New Plexiglas panels and paint inside and out. The colorful gravel-epoxy flags are nicely redone. Thankfully the brass plaques have been removed, probably to the safety of the Castro County Museum.

    Photographic evidence included.

    See also:

    http://www.gentracer.org/hereford7.html

  116. @PaceLaw
    I’m usually with Steve with pretty much everything he says, but this was a memorial to soldiers who fought against the United States and its government. Why exactly should it exist in the first place??? Once you point out the Benedict Arnold monument anywhere in the United States, please be sure to give me your answer.

    Replies: @Daniel H, @Tom-in-VA, @Diversity Heretic, @Ibound1, @J.Ross, @istevefan, @istevefan, @M_Young, @Big Bill, @vinteuil, @anonymous

    In the Antigone of Sophocles, Creon, King of Thebes, refuses burial rights to Polyneices, who had rebelled against the city and been killed leading an army of Argives against it. This refusal to give due respect to the dead – even to a dead traitor – offends the Gods.

    Thebes is morally polluted. Disaster ensues for all concerned.

    The city of Madison is violating a foundational value of Western civilization.

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    @vinteuil

    Interesting.

    Please realize there are many of us in Madison, even those if us who would be a few miles left of center in the rest of the country, who agree with you.

    Replies: @vinteuil

    , @njguy73
    @vinteuil

    What are these "Gods" of which you speak?

    Replies: @vinteuil

    , @Olorin
    @vinteuil


    The city of Madison is violating a foundational value of Western civilization.
     
    Feature. Not bug.

    Replies: @vinteuil

    , @Anonymous
    @vinteuil

    True. But the majority in Madison City Council know anything or care about the history and values of Western civilization.

    , @bomag
    @vinteuil

    Thanks for that.

    I'm suspecting that it is pretty universal in literature to have the bad guys be the ones disturbing the dead in some way.

  117. @Bill P
    @PaceLaw

    Just because you haven't seen a German POW' s grave doesn't mean they don't exist.

    There's one in Fort Lawton in Seattle that I've seen. The soldier committed suicide when he learned he'd be handed over to the Soviets for slave labor after the war ended. There's also a memorial to an Italian POW -- a broken column. The Italian was lynched by a group of black soldiers after he beat a black in a fistfight.

    Unfortunately, it's a good bet that the Seattle city council would eliminate these monuments given the opportunity.

    Replies: @PaceLaw, @res

    Interesting note about the Italian POW. Was this in Seattle as well? Frankly, I find this story a little hard to believe. Black soldiers lynching a (white) Italian soldier in the 1940s and getting away with it? Come on man!

    • Replies: @Joe Schmoe
    @PaceLaw

    That is the thing about lynching. You don't know who did it and blacks aren't going to rat the guilty out.

    , @Bill P
    @PaceLaw

    They didn't get away with it. They were court-martialed and convicted.

    Look it up.

  118. @PaceLaw
    @J.Ross

    Somehow I do not believe that Isis, Al Queda or our other enemies adhere to this philosophy. Time to let go of yesteryear.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @F0337, @Tex, @res

    Are you trolling? Your comments above contain a number of pathetic arguments, but asserting we should do as Isis and Al Qaeda do takes the cake.

    If you are trolling, nice job. Otherwise…

    • Replies: @PaceLaw
    @res

    Stop being silly. My argument was not that we should do as Isis or Al Qaeda, but rather that we should not have memorials to our enemies. By your reasoning, you would be comfortable if the Saudi government offered to put a memorial to the 9/11 hijackers in New York.

    Replies: @dwb

  119. @anonymous
    @istevefan

    There are German WW2 graves (with headstones acknowledging their German rank and service) in Kalamazoo County Michigan at Fort Custer (yeah that Custer) National Cemetery. Every year on Volkstrauertag (German memorial day) a service is conducted on Federal property to honor them.

    From the Ft. Custer National Cemetery [email protected]#%book page on November 13, 2016:


    The Ft. Custer Wednesday Honor Guard had the distinct privilege to support Volkstrauertag 2016, held at the Ft. Custer National Cemetery earlier today.

    The Volkstrauertag (German for "people's day of mourning") is a public holiday in Germany two Sundays before the first day of Advent. It commemorates members of the German armed forces and civilians who died in armed conflicts, to include victims of violent oppression. It was first observed in its modern form in 1952.

    An official observation of Volkstrauertag takes place in the German Bundestag. The President of Germany traditionally gives a speech with the Chancellor, the cabinet and the diplomatic corps present. The national anthem and the song "Ich hatt' einen Kameraden" ("I had a comrade") are then played. Most provinces also hold their own ceremonies; veterans usually organize ceremonies that include a procession from the respective Church service to a war memorial, prayer by the pastor, speeches by the mayor and the veterans' chairmen, a military guard of honor, several wreaths are laid, and "Ich hatt' einen Kameraden"; where available, also with the attendance of a Bundeswehr officer as official representative.

    Because of the relation to Advent, the date is the Sunday nearest 16 November, i.e. in the period from 13 November to 19 November.

    This local Volkstrauertag observation is especially important to the local German-American community as they honor the "Forgotten Twenty-Six". From 1943 to 1946, Fort Custer housed several German Prisoner of War camps. Many of the 4,000 prisoners worked on farms and in vineyards in the area. In Section B of Fort Custer National Cemetery, once part of the Post Cemetery of Fort Custer, there are 26 German graves. Sixteen of the men were killed or died as a result of an accident on 31 October 1944 when a truck, returning German prisoners of war from a work detail to their POW camp at Fort Custer, collided with a train at an unguarded railroad crossing at Blissfield, MI. The other ten died of natural causes while prisoners of war.
     

    Doesn’t Bobby Mueller need to question Senators Stabenow and Peters about this under oath?

    P.S. Didn’t James Madison own slaves and brought them into the Whitehouse to serve him?

    Replies: @res, @istevefan

    There are German WW2 graves (with headstones acknowledging their German rank and service) in Kalamazoo County Michigan at Fort Custer (yeah that Custer) National Cemetery.

    That is a fantastic counterexample. Thanks!

  120. @Anonymous
    A wider point is that after the elapse of a certain period of time - generally when several generations have passed - and there are no personal known living connections to the deceased, the 'sanctity' and 'integrity' of graves and the human remains therein becomes a theoretical point, and more of a question of 'land management' than anything.

    Inevitably, as time passes, the personal connections to particular graves are lost, as are the reverence for the bones.

    Replies: @Cortes, @Diversity Heretic

    Well said.

    Cemeteries ought to recycle ordinary plots/lairs after, say, fifty years. Where townships have dwindled or ceased to exist, remains could be respectfully be assigned to an ossuary. I imagine that there may be some decontamination required to enable former cemetery grounds to be used for more productive purposes (removal of residue from embalming materials, for example) but “perpetual” use of burial ground is a nonsense.

    • Replies: @Peter Frost
    @Cortes

    Cemeteries ought to recycle ordinary plots/lairs after, say, fifty years

    I still visit the graves of my grandparents and great-grandparents, and they died more than fifty years ago.

    There are non-sentimental reasons for preserving grave sites. For one thing, they provide valuable information for historians, genealogists and, yes, anthropologists. For another, they are witnesses to the past, and reminders that other people have come before us. When ethnic cleansing takes place, one of the first acts is the destruction of cemeteries.

    I understand the utilitarian arguments for "recycling" of cemetery land, but that sort of argument can end up being used cynically. What do you think will happen when white Americans cease to be a majority in their own country? What will happen to all of the prime real estate that is now occupied by cemeteries? In a country with half a billion people, there will be pressures to expropriate it for "land development." And don't kid yourself, some of those land developers will be white.

  121. @Bill P
    @PaceLaw

    Just because you haven't seen a German POW' s grave doesn't mean they don't exist.

    There's one in Fort Lawton in Seattle that I've seen. The soldier committed suicide when he learned he'd be handed over to the Soviets for slave labor after the war ended. There's also a memorial to an Italian POW -- a broken column. The Italian was lynched by a group of black soldiers after he beat a black in a fistfight.

    Unfortunately, it's a good bet that the Seattle city council would eliminate these monuments given the opportunity.

    Replies: @PaceLaw, @res

    There’s also a memorial to an Italian POW — a broken column. The Italian was lynched by a group of black soldiers after he beat a black in a fistfight.

    Thanks. Have to remember that the next time I encounter moral preening about lynching. More at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Lawton_riot

    The military policemen restored order without taking anyone into custody. Later, they claimed it had been too dark to identify any of the participants in the riot. The next morning, Lomax, accompanied by a black MP, discovered the body of prisoner Guglielmo Olivotto, hanging from a noose on the obstacle course.

    The coda is that in the 2000’s the resulting convictions became a cause célèbre ending with

    At the military ceremony, Assistant Army Secretary Ronald James offered a tribute to the wrongly convicted men, including an apology and the presentation of belated honorable discharges.

    So they managed to morally preen by forgiving participants in a lynching. Fascinating. Who, whom? is such a powerful idea.

    • Replies: @PaceLaw
    @res

    Bill P. & Res - Well I stand corrected! Thank you both for bringing this underreported story to light. Amazing that this place incident was never made into a movie.

    Replies: @Bill P

  122. @countenance
    Of course we know what this is really all about. It's so that Madison's leaders don't have to think or talk about the worst in the country black-white race gaps present in its own city.

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal

    Not quite.

    This is to show how woke the Madison leaders are, so they can strike a blow against the bro-Confederates.

    I grew up in the south, having moved there from the north. In the late 1960s and the 1970s I wondered why so many southerners were unable to put the Covil War behind them.

    Now I wonder why the woke Madison leaders are unable to put the Civil War behind them after over 150 years.

  123. @vinteuil
    @PaceLaw

    In the Antigone of Sophocles, Creon, King of Thebes, refuses burial rights to Polyneices, who had rebelled against the city and been killed leading an army of Argives against it. This refusal to give due respect to the dead - even to a dead traitor - offends the Gods.

    Thebes is morally polluted. Disaster ensues for all concerned.

    The city of Madison is violating a foundational value of Western civilization.

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal, @njguy73, @Olorin, @Anonymous, @bomag

    Interesting.

    Please realize there are many of us in Madison, even those if us who would be a few miles left of center in the rest of the country, who agree with you.

    • Replies: @vinteuil
    @Paleo Liberal


    Please realize there are many of us in Madison, even those if us who would be a few miles left of center in the rest of the country, who agree with you.
     
    The people of Thebes, innocent or guilty, are punished, all alike, for the uncleanness.

    The Gods of the copy-book headings are like that.

    Those Greeks - they knew some stuff.
  124. @F0337
    @PaceLaw


    Nice try friend, but I can’t say that I’ve ever seen in my entire lifetime a German or Japanese POW site or memorial in this great country of ours.
     
    We treated World War II POWs far better than the good folks of Madison, Wisconsin did Civil War soldiers. Hence, no need for POW cemeteries.

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal

    Not true.

    The people of Madison treated the POWs with great kindness.

    Camp Randall was simply not equipped to handle a very large number of sick and wounded POWs.

    There is now a college football stadium at Camp Randall, where the Wisconsin Badgers play.

    Countless volunteers from the city of Madison volunteered countless hours to care for the sick and wounded, donating clothes, etc. Many, if not most, of the volunteers had family members fighting on the Union side.

    Had it not been for the volunteers, there would have been far more deaths.

    After the war, citizens of Madison took it upon themselves to honor the dead, until very recently.

    The way Madison treated these soldiers from that time until very recently was wonderful, and was commended by the Daughters of the Confederacy.

    I have been in Madison for a number of years. This is the first time I have been ashamed of the city.

  125. Some of them were conscripted farmboys who didn’t even own any slaves. Let them have their memorial. The Union army that fought them wasn’t as petty as the history editors are.

  126. @Romanian
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    The republicans in Civil War Spain dug up nuns and priests.

    Also, I believe Nathan Bedford Forrest was dug up recently, but by the city. Or was it just being discussed?

    Replies: @Rosamond Vincy

    Ironic, because he later disavowed the Klan and worked with Black Southern organizations to encourage Black advancement.

    • Replies: @Romanian
    @Rosamond Vincy

    Well, we all know that we call racism today does not necessarily mean hostility. It might even denote a paternalistic interest in the advancement of the "lower orders".

    I do not know enough about Bedford to say, except that he was an effective fighter, and one who won notoriety, which is the cause of his current woes.

  127. @F0337
    @Veracitor


    we who are their descendants and heirs
     
    Sadly, this description now encompasses a small minority of "Americans".

    Replies: @Rosamond Vincy

    Those of us who are descended from later immigrants inherited US history, both the good and the bad, along with our privileges. I see the American Revolution and the Civil War as part of my history, thoigh my ancestors didn’t fight in them, because they were part of creating the nation where I can live a life that is exponentially preferable to the lives lived by many people, particularly women, in places like Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, and so on.

    • Replies: @Charles Pewitt
    @Rosamond Vincy

    I have wooden sail boat ancestry starting from the 1600s and steel boat ancestry from the late 1800s.

    I understand by blood what English political culture is, and how important it has been to the United States.

    Sam Huntington was right to say that the United States is a British Protestant settler nation.

    I would use English instead of British.

    Pat Buchanan is right to call the United States a European Christian nation.

    Both Huntington and Buchanan can be right.

    Replies: @Corvinus, @Reg Cæsar, @Samuel Skinner

  128. @Pericles
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    The Commies in power in Spain are apparently going to dig up Franco.

    Replies: @Rosamond Vincy

    Is he still dead?

    • Replies: @Pericles
    @Rosamond Vincy

    He never died, say I.

    Replies: @Rosamond Vincy

  129. @J.Ross
    Why am I getting the impression that PaceLaw is really young and has not been in a war?

    Replies: @William Badwhite, @Uncle Remus

    And also likely an immigrant or descended from immigrants who arrived post 1865. People who had ancestors here at that time, whether Confederate or Union, understand the whole reconciliation thing as well as the complexity of the issues. That is, assuming they had literate ancestors that wrote about these matters.

    More recent arrivals have received the sum total of their “Civil War” knowledge from the leftist propaganda machines.

    He’s just another internet loudmouth/faux tough guy. My list of “commenters to ignore” just got longer.

    • Replies: @John Gruskos
    @William Badwhite

    Well said.

  130. Hey, P.L., I appreciated your uplifting local-history lesson. However:

    This is the first time I have been ashamed of the city.

    First time? Seriously? Or, maybe you don’t include the university.

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    @Achmed E. Newman

    There have been some dreadful things. Such as when the Mayor and Common Council called ICE xenophobic and racist for deporting illegal alien felons a few weeks ago.

    That is just silly posturing for politics.

    Dishonoring the dead to score political points is on a different level. Historians warned them not to. But they did anyway.

    In a local Madison forum I warned people the Gods would take revenge by an EF-5 tornado, a massive flood, a plague of locusts or re-election of Scott Walker.

  131. @anonymous
    First Sergeant Anton Hilberath, German Army, is the only German prisoner of war from World War II to be buried in Arlingtion National Cemetery. He was probably captured in 1942 in North Africa.

    Anything else about Hilberath requires plenty of patience and a translator. After a few dozen hours on the internet and couple conversations with older friends with military backgrounds, I pieced together some thoughts.

    Hilberath died April 21, 1946 while working on Maryland’s Eastern Shore’s farms. Wait, that was a year after the war’s end. What were German prisoners still doing here? Turns out nobody was in a hurry to repatriate POWs across the Atlantic.

    How did Hilberath end up at Arlington? Under the Geneva Convention, prisoners were given military funerals at the nearest government cemetery. At the time that was Arlington.
     

    Maybe his remains should be reinterred in Wisconsin, the most German state in the union.

    Replies: @William Badwhite

    In the mid 1980’s I met a former German POW who was living in Dayton, VA. He had been a POW in a camp near Norfolk and when the war was over, was not immediately repatriated. His home in Germany was in the east, now behind the wall. He had no place to go.

    He had distant relatives living in the Shenandoah Valley (lots of German-descended people there) and went to live with them and was still there 40 years later, working as a farm laborer. I don’t recall the specifics of how he was allowed to stay in Virginia, maybe it was just botched paperwork or a similar oversight.

    His English was perfect with a slight Virginia drawl to it. He was extremely grateful to the United States, knew full well how lucky he was not being turned over to the Soviets, and considered receiving citizenship to be the greatest day of his life. I don’t remember his exact age but recall he seemed middle-aged and was well-built and sturdy. Because of this, I assume he was just a kid/teenager when captured.

    I’d like to know what happened to him and if he ever visited home once the wall came down. I’m sure PaceLaw would like to have him deported (but have someone else do the dirty work).

    • Replies: @PaceLaw
    @William Badwhite

    It all depends if he was a Nazi or not. If he was just an ordinary soldier in the Wermacht then I’d be OK with it.

    , @dwb
    @William Badwhite

    When I read this, I thought that it was either a joke, or exaggerated. Removing a stone in a cemetery that lists the names of 140 people buried in that cemetery in a more or less communal grave?

    It's not any sort of "monument" to the Southern cause. It commemorates 140 soldiers who died while in custody.

    "Pace Law" has got to be someone who just is too young to understand the difference between a soldier, who fights under the uniform of even an enemy nation (and we could argue about whether the CSA was an enemy of the US) and "antifa" criminals (who if killed while literally trying to bomb Capitol Hill itself would still be buried in a cemetery with a headstone.)

    This is why countries sign on to the Geneva Convention, Pace. Because a soldier is by tradition an anonymous combatant. On the battlefield, they kill our soldiers - it's why they are there - but if captured, and not brought up on murder charges.

    It is understood that an enemy soldier is acting, again, somewhat anonymously under orders of his government. Our quarrel is with them, not him.

    We could certainly argue that the Confederacy was a foreign enemy nation. We could surely argue that their causus belli was wrong. But in the end, these were soldiers. And they were human beings. A cemetery marker marks their humanity, it does not celebrate their cause.

    As others said, there are German military ceremonies all over Europe - and surely the Nazi government is the gold standard for an evil regime.

    It is simply beyond belief that, in a university town, a city council would remove a memorial to soldiers who were basically killed while POWs in their city. They aren't even being ahistorical fools.

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal

  132. “Sir, it required no courage to do that; it required no magnanimity to do it; it required no courtesy. it only required hate, bitter, malignant, sectional feeling and a sense of personal impunity. The gentleman, I believe, takes rank among Christian statesmen. He might have learned a better lesson, even from the pages of mythology. When Prometheus was bound to the rock it was not an eagle, it was a vulture, that buried his beak in the tortured vitals of the victim.”

    – Lucius Q.C. Lamar on a motion to deny Jefferson Davis his Mexican War pension.

    What the council is doing is akin to mutilating enemy dead after the battle. It indicates a psychotic rage and a basic lack of humanity.

  133. @vinteuil
    @PaceLaw

    In the Antigone of Sophocles, Creon, King of Thebes, refuses burial rights to Polyneices, who had rebelled against the city and been killed leading an army of Argives against it. This refusal to give due respect to the dead - even to a dead traitor - offends the Gods.

    Thebes is morally polluted. Disaster ensues for all concerned.

    The city of Madison is violating a foundational value of Western civilization.

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal, @njguy73, @Olorin, @Anonymous, @bomag

    What are these “Gods” of which you speak?

    • Replies: @vinteuil
    @njguy73


    What are these “Gods” of which you speak?

     

    "...les forces qui nous surveillant de l’autre côté de la mort... "
  134. @NJ Transit Commuter
    Never underestimate the extremes people will go to in hysterias. You joke about digging up the bodies of the Confederate soldiers, Steve, but this has happened before. When the US entered WWI, idiots dug up the remains of the Hessians who died in the Battle of Trenton and dumped them in the Delaware River.

    Replies: @Diversity Heretic, @Pericles, @Romanian, @njguy73, @Chris Mallory

    Maybe shouldn’t bury people anymore. Just leave their bodies around in case we want to deface them later.

  135. @Tom-in-VA
    @PaceLaw

    1. Because they are still Americans.
    2. Because they died while in Union custody.
    3. Because civilized people treat even enemy dead with respect.
    4. Because barbarians want to erase our history, our culture, and our people, and we can’t let them.

    Replies: @PaceLaw, @Veracitor, @njguy73, @John Gruskos

    Because civilized people treat even enemy dead with respect.

    What does that have to do with us?

  136. @Veracitor
    @Tom-in-VA

    Yeah, and also. . .

    Because of Appomattox. As General Grant said after Lee surrendered with all his men and Grant released them all on parole not to thereafter bear arms against the Union, "The Confederates were now our countrymen, and we did not want to exult over their downfall."

    Desecrating the graves of your countrymen is a crime and a shameful policy. If those who personally suffered the incidents of war at the living hands of those Confederate soldiers could subordinate their justifiable thirst for revenge to their desire for honorable reconciliation, we who are their descendants and heirs can certainly respect their decision a century and a half later. Anyone who says otherwise is a barbarian and lacks all honor.

    Replies: @F0337, @njguy73, @Anonymous

    Honor?

    OK, dude, you owe a new laptop, ’cause I just spit coffee all over mine.

  137. William Hartwell Pewitt

    20th Tennessee Infantry

    Madison, Wisconsin is full of evil, spiteful globalizers who will be wiped out when the interest rates start to rise in a more rapid manner.

    Interest Rate People is what I call these slobs in towns like Madison, Wisconsin. One third of the workforce works for the government and 36,000 work for a university or college.

    Interest Rate People are nasty, hate-filled people who have their jobs because of low interest rates.

    How much student loan debt is keeping Madison, Wisconsin afloat?

    The Neo-Normans will have to make an example of Madison, Wisconsin when the time comes.

    The Harrying of the North is on the way, Madison, Wisconsin!

  138. @res
    @PaceLaw

    Are you trolling? Your comments above contain a number of pathetic arguments, but asserting we should do as Isis and Al Qaeda do takes the cake.

    If you are trolling, nice job. Otherwise...

    Replies: @PaceLaw

    Stop being silly. My argument was not that we should do as Isis or Al Qaeda, but rather that we should not have memorials to our enemies. By your reasoning, you would be comfortable if the Saudi government offered to put a memorial to the 9/11 hijackers in New York.

    • Replies: @dwb
    @PaceLaw

    This is sophistry taken to a new level.

    First, the cemetery is not being sponsored by the US government.

    Second, you are equating uniformed soldiers who were fighting in an army raised by a government (I have no idea if all 140 soldiers were volunteers, were conscripted, just how they came to be under Southern colors) with 19 criminals who captured aircraft and used them to attack civilian targets.

    Third, even CRIMINALS get buried in cemeteries with headstones. Whatever their reasons for fighting in the Confederate Army, it's a stretch to call them criminals.

    Fourth, the "memorial" is a marker naming the people buried there. It's not a memorial to their cause, which is, what I suspect, what a "memorial to the 9/11 hijackers" would be.

  139. @PaceLaw
    @Tom-in-VA

    1. “Americans” who rose up to destroy the Union of the United States? You can’t be serious!
    2. Why does that matter? Do we need memorials to German and Japanese POWs who died in the custody of the United States during WWII wartime?
    3. Not sure of what historical basis of where you’re coming from my friend. Victors usually have no regard for the enemy dead.
    4. ?

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Veracitor, @Anonymous, @Federalist

    Damn. I didn’t mean to Agree. Actually, I Disagree.

    I Agree with Tom-in-VA.

  140. @William Badwhite
    @anonymous

    In the mid 1980's I met a former German POW who was living in Dayton, VA. He had been a POW in a camp near Norfolk and when the war was over, was not immediately repatriated. His home in Germany was in the east, now behind the wall. He had no place to go.

    He had distant relatives living in the Shenandoah Valley (lots of German-descended people there) and went to live with them and was still there 40 years later, working as a farm laborer. I don't recall the specifics of how he was allowed to stay in Virginia, maybe it was just botched paperwork or a similar oversight.

    His English was perfect with a slight Virginia drawl to it. He was extremely grateful to the United States, knew full well how lucky he was not being turned over to the Soviets, and considered receiving citizenship to be the greatest day of his life. I don't remember his exact age but recall he seemed middle-aged and was well-built and sturdy. Because of this, I assume he was just a kid/teenager when captured.

    I'd like to know what happened to him and if he ever visited home once the wall came down. I'm sure PaceLaw would like to have him deported (but have someone else do the dirty work).

    Replies: @PaceLaw, @dwb

    It all depends if he was a Nazi or not. If he was just an ordinary soldier in the Wermacht then I’d be OK with it.

  141. @William Badwhite
    @anonymous

    In the mid 1980's I met a former German POW who was living in Dayton, VA. He had been a POW in a camp near Norfolk and when the war was over, was not immediately repatriated. His home in Germany was in the east, now behind the wall. He had no place to go.

    He had distant relatives living in the Shenandoah Valley (lots of German-descended people there) and went to live with them and was still there 40 years later, working as a farm laborer. I don't recall the specifics of how he was allowed to stay in Virginia, maybe it was just botched paperwork or a similar oversight.

    His English was perfect with a slight Virginia drawl to it. He was extremely grateful to the United States, knew full well how lucky he was not being turned over to the Soviets, and considered receiving citizenship to be the greatest day of his life. I don't remember his exact age but recall he seemed middle-aged and was well-built and sturdy. Because of this, I assume he was just a kid/teenager when captured.

    I'd like to know what happened to him and if he ever visited home once the wall came down. I'm sure PaceLaw would like to have him deported (but have someone else do the dirty work).

    Replies: @PaceLaw, @dwb

    When I read this, I thought that it was either a joke, or exaggerated. Removing a stone in a cemetery that lists the names of 140 people buried in that cemetery in a more or less communal grave?

    It’s not any sort of “monument” to the Southern cause. It commemorates 140 soldiers who died while in custody.

    “Pace Law” has got to be someone who just is too young to understand the difference between a soldier, who fights under the uniform of even an enemy nation (and we could argue about whether the CSA was an enemy of the US) and “antifa” criminals (who if killed while literally trying to bomb Capitol Hill itself would still be buried in a cemetery with a headstone.)

    This is why countries sign on to the Geneva Convention, Pace. Because a soldier is by tradition an anonymous combatant. On the battlefield, they kill our soldiers – it’s why they are there – but if captured, and not brought up on murder charges.

    It is understood that an enemy soldier is acting, again, somewhat anonymously under orders of his government. Our quarrel is with them, not him.

    We could certainly argue that the Confederacy was a foreign enemy nation. We could surely argue that their causus belli was wrong. But in the end, these were soldiers. And they were human beings. A cemetery marker marks their humanity, it does not celebrate their cause.

    As others said, there are German military ceremonies all over Europe – and surely the Nazi government is the gold standard for an evil regime.

    It is simply beyond belief that, in a university town, a city council would remove a memorial to soldiers who were basically killed while POWs in their city. They aren’t even being ahistorical fools.

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    @dwb

    The soldiers still have individual tombstones. This Confederate Rest is part of a larger cemetery owned by the city on a street called Speedway which ironically has a 30 mph speed limit. The street runs diagonally through the cemetery with a golf course on one end and West High School on the other.

    By city law it is no longer permitted to place Confederate flags on the tombstones.

    A plaque placed by the Daughters of the Confederacy commemorating the soldiers and the Madison lady who championed the cause of the Confederate Rest was removed a couple of years ago because Confederate. The compromise was to remove the plaque but keep the stone with the names engraved.

    Now the compromise is to store the stone marker and donate it to a museum.

    Ironically far more people will see it in a museum than the handful of people who visit the Confederate Rest.

    I have never been to the cemetery, although I frequently drive on Speedway

  142. @Achmed E. Newman
    Hey, P.L., I appreciated your uplifting local-history lesson. However:

    This is the first time I have been ashamed of the city.
     
    First time? Seriously? Or, maybe you don't include the university.

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal

    There have been some dreadful things. Such as when the Mayor and Common Council called ICE xenophobic and racist for deporting illegal alien felons a few weeks ago.

    That is just silly posturing for politics.

    Dishonoring the dead to score political points is on a different level. Historians warned them not to. But they did anyway.

    In a local Madison forum I warned people the Gods would take revenge by an EF-5 tornado, a massive flood, a plague of locusts or re-election of Scott Walker.

  143. @NJ Transit Commuter
    Never underestimate the extremes people will go to in hysterias. You joke about digging up the bodies of the Confederate soldiers, Steve, but this has happened before. When the US entered WWI, idiots dug up the remains of the Hessians who died in the Battle of Trenton and dumped them in the Delaware River.

    Replies: @Diversity Heretic, @Pericles, @Romanian, @njguy73, @Chris Mallory

    Confederates were Americans defending their homes against the Yankee invaders. Hessians were German mercenary trash who should have been left to the scavengers. Buzzards got to eat, same as worms.

    • Replies: @Samuel Skinner
    @Chris Mallory

    It is better when mercenaries fight war for coin because it means the people in charge have to pay for the willingness to kill. Leave them and you get the nation in arms and all the horrors and bloodshed that holds.

  144. anonymous[404] • Disclaimer says: • Website
    @PaceLaw
    I’m usually with Steve with pretty much everything he says, but this was a memorial to soldiers who fought against the United States and its government. Why exactly should it exist in the first place??? Once you point out the Benedict Arnold monument anywhere in the United States, please be sure to give me your answer.

    Replies: @Daniel H, @Tom-in-VA, @Diversity Heretic, @Ibound1, @J.Ross, @istevefan, @istevefan, @M_Young, @Big Bill, @vinteuil, @anonymous

    “Once you point out the Benedict Arnold monument anywhere in the United States, please be sure to give me your answer.”

    Ah, far-left commie snark. There’re at least three to Arnold: Boot, Saratoga, Valcour.

    These things are Bills of Attainder, legislative adjudications of guilt. The Confederates were pardoned, plus the courts said they were right post-War, but the issue was moot. Plus this is part of a wide attack on monuments to any great figures of the US past by the far-left kulturkampf.

    https://www.neatorama.com/2014/01/01/Americas-Monument-to-Its-Most-Infamous-Traitor-Benedict-Arnold/

  145. @res
    @Bill P


    There’s also a memorial to an Italian POW — a broken column. The Italian was lynched by a group of black soldiers after he beat a black in a fistfight.
     
    Thanks. Have to remember that the next time I encounter moral preening about lynching. More at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Lawton_riot

    The military policemen restored order without taking anyone into custody. Later, they claimed it had been too dark to identify any of the participants in the riot. The next morning, Lomax, accompanied by a black MP, discovered the body of prisoner Guglielmo Olivotto, hanging from a noose on the obstacle course.
     
    The coda is that in the 2000's the resulting convictions became a cause célèbre ending with

    At the military ceremony, Assistant Army Secretary Ronald James offered a tribute to the wrongly convicted men, including an apology and the presentation of belated honorable discharges.
     
    So they managed to morally preen by forgiving participants in a lynching. Fascinating. Who, whom? is such a powerful idea.

    Replies: @PaceLaw

    Bill P. & Res – Well I stand corrected! Thank you both for bringing this underreported story to light. Amazing that this place incident was never made into a movie.

    • Replies: @Bill P
    @PaceLaw

    There's tons of amazing stuff out there, but I have to take issue with the notion that there's anything amazing about the fact that this was never dramatized. It's an extremely politically inconvenient story, after all, and remains so even today.

    Perhaps some Italian will make a movie out of it before they tear down the barracks at Fort Lawton, but Hollywood wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.

  146. @Rosamond Vincy
    @Pericles

    Is he still dead?

    Replies: @Pericles

    He never died, say I.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    @Pericles

    Classic SNL episodes expressed doubt.

  147. Steve Sailer in 2015:

    It turns out that very liberal Madison and its Dane County have just about the worst black-white inequality in America across a host of measures.

    Tweet from 2015:

  148. @M_Young
    @Dan Hayes

    Although probably the best history department, as far as grad school goes, in the country.

    Replies: @F0337, @Paleo Liberal

    My father, a native New Yorker, originally attended UW Madison in the early 1940s because of the History Department. After one winter he transferred to Colombia back in NY.

    The history department has always been good at UW

  149. James Kirkpatrick in 2015:

    Madison is not yet Ferguson or Baltimore. But in its own way, it is something more insidious. It’s a city on edge, permanently on the brink of violence, scarred by deliberately created racial tensions and plagued with a permanent culture of grievance and hatred against whites.

    Tweet from 2015:

  150. @Paleo Liberal
    @Olorin

    I live in Madison, a few miles from the suburban Epic campus. I have known plenty of people who have worked at Epic. Some of their practices should be illegal, but the Republican Supreme Court sided with Epic.

    Some of their practices, such as blatant age discrimination, ARE illegal, but they are a big company and buy off the politicians so they can get away with it.

    The irony is old man Soglin being the spokesperson for Epic was not lost on me.

    Replies: @Olorin

    You are correct about the WI SC, about Epic (SC also ruled Billionaire Judy can require all workers to give up the right to trial by jury as a condition of employment), and also that the preening Dane County morality that passes as super liberal, left, or progressive is often 1A rapacious shekel-grubbing behind closed doors. Sometimes it’s pro-bidness, sometimes it’s flogging the slaves on the tax plantation.

    I’m of the view that this is why they excoriate white men. On the one hand they depend on the proven productivity and orderliness of Wisconsin white men for their shekels–whether it’s through the private or public sectors–and terrific standard of community living. On the other, admitting that would pinch, so scapegoating ensues. I see it as highly primitive religious thinking.

    This is also why I’ve never felt comfortable with election-cycle meme-project of talking about “leftism/communism/socialism” as the entire problem politically, socially, and economically.

    For the problem is also the Repugs, who resemble not in the least their founding ancestors in Ripon who opposed the Kansas-Nebraska Act, and so created a new party out of the riven Whigs and Dems. And btw laid the groundwork for the Civil War. All because some eastern railroad men wanted to win a bit on iron horses.

    But now we’re supposed to enjoy Donald Trump’s command and subversion of the MSM, get our aprons in a heave, and go vote straight R in November.

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    @Olorin

    I learned long ago that the entire point of identity politics is so the oligarchs can divide the rest of us.

    As long as we are divided -- white, black, brown, red, yellow, right-wing, left-wing, native-born, immigrant, etc., we are easily led like lambs to the slaughter, with many of the ethnic leaders as the Judas goats.

    Replies: @Charles Pewitt

  151. @Anonymous
    @J.Ross

    Let’s make pot legal, maaan. Cigarettes suck, but weed is awesome.

    Seriously, the apparent push by the elites to legalize pot perplexes me. Due to all of the pro-pot propaganda, many people these days believe that pot has no negative side effects and, in fact, is practically a cure-all for just about anything and everything.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @F0337, @Olorin

    Here in the PNW, it’s Wall Street hedge funds underwriting the big grow operations and development of a retail sector. The vision is something like drugging everyone into the extreme version of the best of white people–passivity and compliance (as F0337 puts it well), but without the troubling Hate-Learning-Saxon element.

    As for parents allowing or encouraging this behavior starting in teens, by this point it’s safe to assume they did it too. The earliest Gen Xers are within five to seven years of retirement age, remember.

  152. @vinteuil
    @PaceLaw

    In the Antigone of Sophocles, Creon, King of Thebes, refuses burial rights to Polyneices, who had rebelled against the city and been killed leading an army of Argives against it. This refusal to give due respect to the dead - even to a dead traitor - offends the Gods.

    Thebes is morally polluted. Disaster ensues for all concerned.

    The city of Madison is violating a foundational value of Western civilization.

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal, @njguy73, @Olorin, @Anonymous, @bomag

    The city of Madison is violating a foundational value of Western civilization.

    Feature. Not bug.

    • Replies: @vinteuil
    @Olorin


    Feature. Not bug.
     
    Yes. It is not just wrong. It is diabolical.
  153. @Tex
    @PaceLaw


    Somehow I do not believe that Isis, Al Queda or our other enemies adhere to this philosophy. Time to let go of yesteryear.
     
    If the standard of civilized behavior between Americans is whatever ISIS would do, then the next civil war is going to be very ugly indeed. Vandalism is just the start.

    Replies: @sayless

    ,I do not believe that Isis or al -queda,

    Are they our teachers?

  154. @Paleo Liberal
    I live in Madison.

    Please be aware that some of us disagree with the Common Council’s oh so trendy decision. They want to virtue signal as to how anti Confederate they are.

    Historians show that the good people of Madison aided the Confederate POWs as much as possible, treating them the way they would want their own kin to be treated if their kid were to be captured by Confederates. The good Union supporting people of Madison probably saved the lives of hundreds of POWs with their kindness.

    That probably explains why the leading voice against removal was a fellow Stu Levitan. Levitan is an excellent historian, and has wrote the definitive book on the history of Madison. He is also chair of the Landmarks Commission. As chair of the Landmarks Commission Levitan did everything in his power to stop this horrific, but trendy, action.

    Replies: @Olorin

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    @Olorin

    I was not aware that Stu Levitan had succumbed to political pressure on this issue. I have no idea why.

  155. @Diversity Heretic
    There were suggestions to disenterre the bodies of Nathan Bedford Forrest and his wife in Memphis, Tennessee, so the proposition that the 140 bodies need to be removed is not far-fetched. How long until the remains of the soldiers buried in Custer National Cemetery at Little Bighorn Battlefield National Monument are slated for removal?

    White Americans are being both symbolically and literally displaced and dispossessed from the country their ancestors built.

    Replies: @istevefan, @Joe Schmoe

    I am starting to wonder if they want to erase the past so that they can repeat it.

    It is far easier to deny something after you have destroyed the records of it.

  156. @PaceLaw
    @Bill P

    Interesting note about the Italian POW. Was this in Seattle as well? Frankly, I find this story a little hard to believe. Black soldiers lynching a (white) Italian soldier in the 1940s and getting away with it? Come on man!

    Replies: @Joe Schmoe, @Bill P

    That is the thing about lynching. You don’t know who did it and blacks aren’t going to rat the guilty out.

  157. @Chris from Gresham
    Steve, thank you, perfect analysis, as usual.

    Decisions like this are what happen when men no longer get involoved in politics. Women getting elected to office (and I'd love to see the breakdown of that council, by gender) have the same effect as girls as altar boys and parish council members: men and boys begin staying on the sidelines.

    Replies: @bomag

    …and the men who run for these new, feminized, offices generally don’t exhibit too much testosterone.

  158. @Big Bill
    @J.Ross

    Speaking of Spanish Civil War Reds, Madison has a memorial to the commies of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade. "It stands in James Madison Park — just a few feet from the historic Gates of Heaven synagogue."

    As the story explains, Madison Jews (complete with Klezmer band!) and Commies rallied at the memorial when it was graffitied a year ago.

    The article is a must-read. Compare and contrast:

    https://madison.com/ct/opinion/column/john_nichols/when-swastikas-appear-madison-cries-they-shall-not-pass/article_7c27fc4c-4d08-5fc6-be9c-a5e47104d465.html

    Replies: @Olorin, @J.Ross

    Madison Common Council really should vote John Nichols a perpetual sinecure as Most Useful Idiot in the city. He is 400 lbs of cringe packed in a 98-lb-weakling bag.

    The reason the ALB memorial was placed next to Gates of Heaven (which was moved to James Madison Park from its original location) is that Clarence Kailin was a Jew, not because Clarence Kailin was a Commie. (Not that I’m trying to draw a false distinction.)

    https://isthmus.com/archive/from-the-archives/unrepentant-red-clarence-kailin-looks-back-on-a-lifetime-of-fighting-the-good-fight/

    Also at: http://archive.is/KRdhn

    Gates of Heaven (Wikipedia)
    http://archive.is/A13i9

    Note that the synagogue was built by German Jews–and designed by the same architect who designed Madison aldercritter Ledell Zellers’ mansion–but by the 1980s was frequented by Ashkenazi Jews who had mostly replaced Judaism with Holocaustianity. Reconstructionists are iirc the sect of Judaism who least believe in God.

    Rabbi Hannah Rosenthal was married for many years to former Dane County executive (head of county) Rick Phelps. She dined out for decades on her dad having spent some time at Buchenwald. Her career at Barack Obama’s/Hillary Clinton’s State Department is worth looking up.

    http://archive.is/UH8IH

    Phelps was followed by Kathleen Falk, who was being groomed by the Dems for much bigger political things in the 1990s. Phelps went on to work for an enormous Chicago bank that invests in real estate development (gentrification) in WI (M&I/BMO Harris). His Wikipedia entry has been scrubbed of such facts in the past several years.

    http://archive.is/5zXHC

    He ran for US House in District 2…but lost to Tammy Baldwin, another gal who was being groomed for bigger things.

    These are not “leftists” or “communists” or “progressives.” They are the Establishment elite of the FIRE and IP/MSM economy.

    FWIW, here’s the klezmer band you noted.

    http://archive.is/sEZKv
    http://archive.is/smgF9

  159. @istevefan
    @PaceLaw

    Do people realize there are German WW2 cemeteries in Russia? I've long known about German cemeteries in France and Western Europe. But Russia? The Germans were very brutal towards Slavs, and the Slavs suffered greatly during WW2. Yet there are German cemeteries in Russia that continue to add new graves as old remains are discovered.

    If the Russians can allow the Germans to be buried in a dignified manner, why can't the residents of Madison do the same for the Confederates?

    Replies: @PaceLaw, @Dan Hayes, @anonymous, @Tex, @International Jew, @Reg Cæsar

    If the Russians can allow the Germans to be buried in a dignified manner, why can’t the residents of Madison do the same for the Confederates?

    Good question. The Wikipedia article you cite does mention that Germany bought goodwill with the locals by paying for work on roads and a church. Maybe Madison would reconsider if the Daughters of the Confederacy gave them a gift. And I guess the million+ decendants of slaves now living in Wisconsin and the many blessings of diversity they’ve brought, don’t count.

    A separate question is, Why doesn’t Germany bring the bodies back home for burial? The bodies buried there were all collected from various other places so it’s not like they weren’t already going to be exhumed.

  160. @Cortes
    @Anonymous

    Well said.

    Cemeteries ought to recycle ordinary plots/lairs after, say, fifty years. Where townships have dwindled or ceased to exist, remains could be respectfully be assigned to an ossuary. I imagine that there may be some decontamination required to enable former cemetery grounds to be used for more productive purposes (removal of residue from embalming materials, for example) but “perpetual” use of burial ground is a nonsense.

    Replies: @Peter Frost

    Cemeteries ought to recycle ordinary plots/lairs after, say, fifty years

    I still visit the graves of my grandparents and great-grandparents, and they died more than fifty years ago.

    There are non-sentimental reasons for preserving grave sites. For one thing, they provide valuable information for historians, genealogists and, yes, anthropologists. For another, they are witnesses to the past, and reminders that other people have come before us. When ethnic cleansing takes place, one of the first acts is the destruction of cemeteries.

    I understand the utilitarian arguments for “recycling” of cemetery land, but that sort of argument can end up being used cynically. What do you think will happen when white Americans cease to be a majority in their own country? What will happen to all of the prime real estate that is now occupied by cemeteries? In a country with half a billion people, there will be pressures to expropriate it for “land development.” And don’t kid yourself, some of those land developers will be white.

  161. @PaceLaw
    @Reg Cæsar

    Interesting observations Reg Caesar. In fact, I would say the biggest difference between Southerners and Northerners was that the Southerners completely lacked the respect for the humanity of the “Negroes” as opposed to the Northerners. Please acknowledge the abolitionists of the North and their efforts. The Southerners viewed “Negroes” as not much more than beast of burden while the Northerners saw them as people with souls.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Samuel Skinner, @RVBlake, @Reg Cæsar

    First, there are no “Northerners”. Up here, we don’t use that language.

    If you believe black Africans have a place in North America, then you agree with the Confederates, and not with the Union Soldiers, who came from states that were 98% white, and who held no such illusions. Admit it.

    Except for the three border states, the Union was as white as Iceland is today.

    (I bet you also believe blacks shouldn’t be allowed to possess handguns– exactly what the Confederates felt.)

    You might read up on how the surviving soldiers on both sides treated each other:

    https://www.nationalparkstraveler.org/2009/02/rare-motion-pictures-show-civil-war-veterans-75th-gettysburg-battle-anniversary
    http://segtours.com/blog/archives/1989
    https://mashable.com/2015/04/10/civil-war-oldest-veterans/#3K.6Y2pUKOqD

    • Replies: @Samuel Skinner
    @Reg Cæsar


    If you believe black Africans have a place in North America, then you agree with the Confederates, and not with the Union Soldiers, who came from states that were 98% white, and who held no such illusions. Admit it.
     
    You missed the kicker:
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/8319858/Abraham-Lincoln-wanted-to-deport-slaves-to-new-colonies.html

    Lincoln wanted to ship blacks out of the country and was attempting it in 1865. He had gone through with a colonization attempt in 1863 to Haiti. Leaving aside black competency, placing them in areas that are filled with tropical diseases is a wonderful way to get alot of them killed.

    (I bet you also believe blacks shouldn’t be allowed to possess handguns– exactly what the Confederates felt.)
     
    Sort of. Colonial codes and post 1832 (Nat Turner rebellion) restricted slave ownership of weapons. The exception is Texas where the state was not given the power to restrict guns for anyone.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Reg Cæsar

  162. @istevefan
    @PaceLaw

    Do people realize there are German WW2 cemeteries in Russia? I've long known about German cemeteries in France and Western Europe. But Russia? The Germans were very brutal towards Slavs, and the Slavs suffered greatly during WW2. Yet there are German cemeteries in Russia that continue to add new graves as old remains are discovered.

    If the Russians can allow the Germans to be buried in a dignified manner, why can't the residents of Madison do the same for the Confederates?

    Replies: @PaceLaw, @Dan Hayes, @anonymous, @Tex, @International Jew, @Reg Cæsar

    If the Russians can allow the Germans to be buried in a dignified manner, why can’t the residents of Madison do the same for the Confederates?

    Because Russia still has one foot in Western civilization.

  163. @Rosamond Vincy
    @F0337

    Those of us who are descended from later immigrants inherited US history, both the good and the bad, along with our privileges. I see the American Revolution and the Civil War as part of my history, thoigh my ancestors didn't fight in them, because they were part of creating the nation where I can live a life that is exponentially preferable to the lives lived by many people, particularly women, in places like Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, and so on.

    Replies: @Charles Pewitt

    I have wooden sail boat ancestry starting from the 1600s and steel boat ancestry from the late 1800s.

    I understand by blood what English political culture is, and how important it has been to the United States.

    Sam Huntington was right to say that the United States is a British Protestant settler nation.

    I would use English instead of British.

    Pat Buchanan is right to call the United States a European Christian nation.

    Both Huntington and Buchanan can be right.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @Charles Pewitt

    "Sam Huntington was right to say that the United States is a British Protestant settler nation."
    "Pat Buchanan is right to call the United States a European Christian nation."

    It is more accurate to say that the United States was originally founded by a number of European nations, most notably the British, and settled by a wide range nationalities and religions, including Protestant.

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Charles Pewitt


    Sam Huntington was right to say that the United States is a British Protestant settler nation.

    I would use English instead of British.

     

    I would say Christian instead of Protestant. The latter has split into warring cults of snake-handlers and rainbow wavers.

    Pat Buchanan is right to call the United States a European Christian nation.
     
    I take exception. My mother's people said goodbye to Europe in the nineteenth century, my father's, in the fifth.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerdic_of_Wessex

    Replies: @Charles Pewitt

    , @Samuel Skinner
    @Charles Pewitt

    Pat is wrong. The United States was a British Protestant nation and became a European Christian Empire composed of multiple nations. As an empire it is dying- the original nation has gradually lost control of the levers of power due to infighting and its self destruction has allowed its gradual replacement with a hostile and foreign elite.

  164. @Samuel Skinner
    @Reg Cæsar


    …which they saw as diversity. The biggest difference between Southerners and other white Americans is their intense love of the Negro, and their inability to live without him close by. Vermont and Idaho’s total whiteness is a bug, not a feature.
     
    Yes, because all white people are exactly the same and Ireland is still part of the UK. The North was flooded by white immigrants that were not English; diversity was as much a part of it as the South.

    Someone has never heard of the Whisky Rebellion, or, for that matter, the Fugitive Slave Acts, which allowed states to be invaded by outsiders from other states. Sovereignty for me, not for thee.
     
    The Whisky Rebellion was an internal uprising, not a conflict between multiple states.

    As for the latter, typical Yankee. Not only do you break the deal, you insist this makes you a more moral person. If the only thing you desire is power, it is all you will receive until in the end your line dies.

    Article 4, Section 2
    No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, But shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    The Whisky Rebellion was an internal uprising, not a conflict between multiple states.

    It was in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, as Shay’s was in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. The interference came from outside those jurisdictions.

    As for the latter, typical Yankee. Not only do you break the deal, you insist this makes you a more moral person

    I am not a “Yankee”. I live far outside New England. Many of my paternal ancestors were, though, and sometimes I have pie for breakfast. And nowhere did I say or imply anything about a “more moral person”, a nonsensical, even un-Christian concept. You’re just projecting.

    Article 4, Section 2
    No Person held to Service or Labour in one State

    Are Negroes “Persons”, or livestock? If the free (i.e., white) states declared them to be non-persons, then there would be no issue. The planters would have to take it to the Supreme Court.

    Article 4, Section 4
    The United States shall guarantee to every state in this union a republican form of government…

    At the time of ratification, every state had a white majority. By the fourth Census, that was not true of three states, and others threatened to join them. That alone sounds like a broken deal. And a Negro-majority jurisdiction sounds nothing like a republic. The Roman Empire was diverse, the Roman Republic far less so.

    Note the shifting definition of “person”. They’re whole persons when they need to be “delivered up on Claim” (an exercise of power, by the way), three-fifths when toted up to inflate representation, and non-persons in other legal proceedings. Whichever is most convenient at the moment.

    You should carry on your discussion with this “Pace Law” character. At least you have one point of agreement– that it is good to have African Negroes in America.

    • Replies: @Samuel Skinner
    @Reg Cæsar


    It was in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, as Shay’s was in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. The interference came from outside those jurisdictions.
     
    Whisky Rebellion was an uprising against a federal law so had a federal reaction.

    I am not a “Yankee”. I live far outside New England. Many of my paternal ancestors were, though, and sometimes I have pie for breakfast. And nowhere did I say or imply anything about a “more moral person”, a nonsensical, even un-Christian concept. You’re just projecting.
     

    Sovereignty for me, not for thee.
     
    Yeah, declaring your opponents are hypocrites acting purely in their own interests (unlike you who is selfless and nearer to the Godhood) is completely unique and has never been done by Yankees ever before.

    Are Negroes “Persons”, or livestock? If the free (i.e., white) states declared them to be non-persons, then there would be no issue. The planters would have to take it to the Supreme Court.
     
    The answer depends on the category and individual in question. Slaves may count as livestock but free blacks do not.

    And a Negro-majority jurisdiction sounds nothing like a republic.
     
    Republics are non-monarchical states.

    Whichever is most convenient at the moment.
     
    So weird a legal category results in individuals being treated differently in different legal situation.

    Total self assurance and total ignorance. Nothing less then I'd expect from your kind.

    At least you have one point of agreement– that it is good to have African Negroes in America.
     
    -complains about projection
    -projects

    Black slaves were good for the elite and net cost for everyone.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Reg Cæsar

  165. “You let 140 POWs die in your POW camp, Madisonians…”

    Tragic. Now here is some background regarding POW camp at Camp Randall for context.

    https://badgerherald.com/banter/2016/01/21/confederate-captives-in-madison-camp-randalls-history-as-civil-war-prisoner-of-war-camp/

    “it’s not too much to ask that a simple marker listing the dead POWs names be allowed to not be obliterated.”

    Absolutely agree.

    “What about the dead bodies of the 140 POWs who died for the False Narrative of Southern secession?”

    You mean Civil War.

    “We are often reminded these days to never punch Down and always Punch up. But that raises the question of: Who is Down and who is Up?”

    Who/Whom?

    “The answer, of course, is that those are getting punched must be Up. The Madison city council wouldn’t be punching dead POWs if they were Down, so, by definition, these dead POWs are Up, and therefore deserve to be punched.”

    Perhaps we can remind everyone of our mother’s advice to punch a pillow instead of punching a person.

  166. @Charles Pewitt
    @Rosamond Vincy

    I have wooden sail boat ancestry starting from the 1600s and steel boat ancestry from the late 1800s.

    I understand by blood what English political culture is, and how important it has been to the United States.

    Sam Huntington was right to say that the United States is a British Protestant settler nation.

    I would use English instead of British.

    Pat Buchanan is right to call the United States a European Christian nation.

    Both Huntington and Buchanan can be right.

    Replies: @Corvinus, @Reg Cæsar, @Samuel Skinner

    “Sam Huntington was right to say that the United States is a British Protestant settler nation.”
    “Pat Buchanan is right to call the United States a European Christian nation.”

    It is more accurate to say that the United States was originally founded by a number of European nations, most notably the British, and settled by a wide range nationalities and religions, including Protestant.

  167. @Charles Pewitt
    @Rosamond Vincy

    I have wooden sail boat ancestry starting from the 1600s and steel boat ancestry from the late 1800s.

    I understand by blood what English political culture is, and how important it has been to the United States.

    Sam Huntington was right to say that the United States is a British Protestant settler nation.

    I would use English instead of British.

    Pat Buchanan is right to call the United States a European Christian nation.

    Both Huntington and Buchanan can be right.

    Replies: @Corvinus, @Reg Cæsar, @Samuel Skinner

    Sam Huntington was right to say that the United States is a British Protestant settler nation.

    I would use English instead of British.

    I would say Christian instead of Protestant. The latter has split into warring cults of snake-handlers and rainbow wavers.

    Pat Buchanan is right to call the United States a European Christian nation.

    I take exception. My mother’s people said goodbye to Europe in the nineteenth century, my father’s, in the fifth.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerdic_of_Wessex

    • Replies: @Charles Pewitt
    @Reg Cæsar

    I have some Saxon surnames in my ancestry also. Norman as well.

    English liberty and law emanating from an illuminated forest clearing in ancient Germany and all that.

  168. @Reg Cæsar
    @Charles Pewitt


    Sam Huntington was right to say that the United States is a British Protestant settler nation.

    I would use English instead of British.

     

    I would say Christian instead of Protestant. The latter has split into warring cults of snake-handlers and rainbow wavers.

    Pat Buchanan is right to call the United States a European Christian nation.
     
    I take exception. My mother's people said goodbye to Europe in the nineteenth century, my father's, in the fifth.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerdic_of_Wessex

    Replies: @Charles Pewitt

    I have some Saxon surnames in my ancestry also. Norman as well.

    English liberty and law emanating from an illuminated forest clearing in ancient Germany and all that.

  169. @Reg Cæsar
    @PaceLaw

    First, there are no "Northerners". Up here, we don't use that language.

    If you believe black Africans have a place in North America, then you agree with the Confederates, and not with the Union Soldiers, who came from states that were 98% white, and who held no such illusions. Admit it.

    Except for the three border states, the Union was as white as Iceland is today.

    (I bet you also believe blacks shouldn't be allowed to possess handguns-- exactly what the Confederates felt.)

    You might read up on how the surviving soldiers on both sides treated each other:

    https://www.nationalparkstraveler.org/2009/02/rare-motion-pictures-show-civil-war-veterans-75th-gettysburg-battle-anniversary
    http://segtours.com/blog/archives/1989
    https://mashable.com/2015/04/10/civil-war-oldest-veterans/#3K.6Y2pUKOqD

    Replies: @Samuel Skinner

    If you believe black Africans have a place in North America, then you agree with the Confederates, and not with the Union Soldiers, who came from states that were 98% white, and who held no such illusions. Admit it.

    You missed the kicker:
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/8319858/Abraham-Lincoln-wanted-to-deport-slaves-to-new-colonies.html

    Lincoln wanted to ship blacks out of the country and was attempting it in 1865. He had gone through with a colonization attempt in 1863 to Haiti. Leaving aside black competency, placing them in areas that are filled with tropical diseases is a wonderful way to get alot of them killed.

    (I bet you also believe blacks shouldn’t be allowed to possess handguns– exactly what the Confederates felt.)

    Sort of. Colonial codes and post 1832 (Nat Turner rebellion) restricted slave ownership of weapons. The exception is Texas where the state was not given the power to restrict guns for anyone.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Samuel Skinner


    Leaving aside black competency, placing them in areas that are filled with tropical diseases is a wonderful way to get alot of them killed.
     
    Aren't blacks from the tropics?
    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Samuel Skinner


    You missed the kicker:

    Lincoln wanted to ship blacks out of the country and was attempting it in 1865.
     

    You missed the kicker: he was right to do so.

    If the planters didn't like it, they could have paid white men enough to do the job. Or follow their charges to Africa.


    Colonial codes and post 1832 (Nat Turner rebellion) restricted slave ownership of weapons.

     

    "Free Negroes and mulattoes" were also banned from possessing weapons.

    Eg, Section XII Article 83 of the The Revised Code of the Statute Laws of the State of Mississippi:

    No free negro or mulatto shall be suffered to keep any fire-arms of any kind...

    Virginia, 1832:

    No free negro or mulatto shall be suffered to keep or carry any firelock of any kind...

    The Revised Statutes of the State of Missouri, Volume 2:

    No free negro or mulatto shall be suffered to keep or carry any firelock...

    Replies: @Samuel Skinner

  170. @PaceLaw
    @Bill P

    Interesting note about the Italian POW. Was this in Seattle as well? Frankly, I find this story a little hard to believe. Black soldiers lynching a (white) Italian soldier in the 1940s and getting away with it? Come on man!

    Replies: @Joe Schmoe, @Bill P

    They didn’t get away with it. They were court-martialed and convicted.

    Look it up.

  171. @Big Bill
    @PaceLaw


    I’m usually with Steve with pretty much everything he says, but this was a memorial to soldiers who fought against the United States and its government. Why exactly should it exist in the first place???
     
    It is a tombstone. In Western civilization we erect them over the graves of our beloved who died. Saint or sinner, mass murderer or statesman, gangster or priest. Even babies born dead are given tombstones.

    Some tombstones, like the Madison tombstone, are quite simple and merely list the names of the dead. Others are larger and more elaborate.

    I am curious. What do people in your country do to remember the dead? Anything?

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    I am curious. What do people in your country do to remember the dead? Anything?

    Feed the birdies!

    But WHY Can’t I have a Tibetan Sky Burial?

  172. @Veracitor
    @Tom-in-VA

    Yeah, and also. . .

    Because of Appomattox. As General Grant said after Lee surrendered with all his men and Grant released them all on parole not to thereafter bear arms against the Union, "The Confederates were now our countrymen, and we did not want to exult over their downfall."

    Desecrating the graves of your countrymen is a crime and a shameful policy. If those who personally suffered the incidents of war at the living hands of those Confederate soldiers could subordinate their justifiable thirst for revenge to their desire for honorable reconciliation, we who are their descendants and heirs can certainly respect their decision a century and a half later. Anyone who says otherwise is a barbarian and lacks all honor.

    Replies: @F0337, @njguy73, @Anonymous

    If those who personally suffered the incidents of war at the living hands of those Confederate soldiers could subordinate their justifiable thirst for revenge to their desire for honorable reconciliation

    Except a thirst for “revenge” wouldn’t be justifiable.

  173. @Reg Cæsar
    @Samuel Skinner


    The Whisky Rebellion was an internal uprising, not a conflict between multiple states.

     

    It was in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, as Shay's was in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. The interference came from outside those jurisdictions.

    As for the latter, typical Yankee. Not only do you break the deal, you insist this makes you a more moral person

     

    I am not a "Yankee". I live far outside New England. Many of my paternal ancestors were, though, and sometimes I have pie for breakfast. And nowhere did I say or imply anything about a "more moral person", a nonsensical, even un-Christian concept. You're just projecting.

    Article 4, Section 2
    No Person held to Service or Labour in one State

     

    Are Negroes "Persons", or livestock? If the free (i.e., white) states declared them to be non-persons, then there would be no issue. The planters would have to take it to the Supreme Court.

    Article 4, Section 4
    The United States shall guarantee to every state in this union a republican form of government...

    At the time of ratification, every state had a white majority. By the fourth Census, that was not true of three states, and others threatened to join them. That alone sounds like a broken deal. And a Negro-majority jurisdiction sounds nothing like a republic. The Roman Empire was diverse, the Roman Republic far less so.

    Note the shifting definition of "person". They're whole persons when they need to be "delivered up on Claim" (an exercise of power, by the way), three-fifths when toted up to inflate representation, and non-persons in other legal proceedings. Whichever is most convenient at the moment.

    You should carry on your discussion with this "Pace Law" character. At least you have one point of agreement-- that it is good to have African Negroes in America.

    Replies: @Samuel Skinner

    It was in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, as Shay’s was in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. The interference came from outside those jurisdictions.

    Whisky Rebellion was an uprising against a federal law so had a federal reaction.

    I am not a “Yankee”. I live far outside New England. Many of my paternal ancestors were, though, and sometimes I have pie for breakfast. And nowhere did I say or imply anything about a “more moral person”, a nonsensical, even un-Christian concept. You’re just projecting.

    Sovereignty for me, not for thee.

    Yeah, declaring your opponents are hypocrites acting purely in their own interests (unlike you who is selfless and nearer to the Godhood) is completely unique and has never been done by Yankees ever before.

    Are Negroes “Persons”, or livestock? If the free (i.e., white) states declared them to be non-persons, then there would be no issue. The planters would have to take it to the Supreme Court.

    The answer depends on the category and individual in question. Slaves may count as livestock but free blacks do not.

    And a Negro-majority jurisdiction sounds nothing like a republic.

    Republics are non-monarchical states.

    Whichever is most convenient at the moment.

    So weird a legal category results in individuals being treated differently in different legal situation.

    Total self assurance and total ignorance. Nothing less then I’d expect from your kind.

    At least you have one point of agreement– that it is good to have African Negroes in America.

    -complains about projection
    -projects

    Black slaves were good for the elite and net cost for everyone.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Samuel Skinner


    Black slaves were good for the elite and net cost for everyone.

     

    Well, there is another point of agreement between you and your mirror image, "Pace Law". He claims the Southern states were political traitors. You admit they were race traitors.

    The only people who want to dig up these issues today are the descendants of those who lost and the descendants of those who missed it entirely. Most normal white folks today would see the Gettysburg reunions of 1913 and 1938 as inspiring. You and Pace can go have it out in your own mud pit.

    Replies: @Samuel Skinner

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Samuel Skinner


    Republics are non-monarchical states.
     
    So Zambia is a republic. Venezuela is a republic. Both halves of Korea are republics.

    Boy, your standards are set very low.

    Replies: @Samuel Skinner

  174. @PaceLaw
    @res

    Bill P. & Res - Well I stand corrected! Thank you both for bringing this underreported story to light. Amazing that this place incident was never made into a movie.

    Replies: @Bill P

    There’s tons of amazing stuff out there, but I have to take issue with the notion that there’s anything amazing about the fact that this was never dramatized. It’s an extremely politically inconvenient story, after all, and remains so even today.

    Perhaps some Italian will make a movie out of it before they tear down the barracks at Fort Lawton, but Hollywood wouldn’t touch it with a barge pole.

  175. @Charles Pewitt
    @Rosamond Vincy

    I have wooden sail boat ancestry starting from the 1600s and steel boat ancestry from the late 1800s.

    I understand by blood what English political culture is, and how important it has been to the United States.

    Sam Huntington was right to say that the United States is a British Protestant settler nation.

    I would use English instead of British.

    Pat Buchanan is right to call the United States a European Christian nation.

    Both Huntington and Buchanan can be right.

    Replies: @Corvinus, @Reg Cæsar, @Samuel Skinner

    Pat is wrong. The United States was a British Protestant nation and became a European Christian Empire composed of multiple nations. As an empire it is dying- the original nation has gradually lost control of the levers of power due to infighting and its self destruction has allowed its gradual replacement with a hostile and foreign elite.

  176. @Redneck farmer
    Alternative Conspiracy Theory: Eliminate knowledge of the Civil War, more slowly eliminate knowledge of slavery, eventually tell the blacks to STFU and listen to their White Female/Hispanic/Asian progressive overlords?

    Replies: @awry

    I don”t see that happening. Blacks are constantly reminded that they must get ever more angry about slavery 150 years ago and the evil whites oppressing them to this day. It’s diversionary tactics of course so they won’t protest immigration that hurts them economically just as bad (or more) as blue collar whites.

  177. @Big Bill
    @J.Ross

    Speaking of Spanish Civil War Reds, Madison has a memorial to the commies of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade. "It stands in James Madison Park — just a few feet from the historic Gates of Heaven synagogue."

    As the story explains, Madison Jews (complete with Klezmer band!) and Commies rallied at the memorial when it was graffitied a year ago.

    The article is a must-read. Compare and contrast:

    https://madison.com/ct/opinion/column/john_nichols/when-swastikas-appear-madison-cries-they-shall-not-pass/article_7c27fc4c-4d08-5fc6-be9c-a5e47104d465.html

    Replies: @Olorin, @J.Ross

    I have sat in at a presentation of Spanish Civil War fanboys at a local university, where they give lectures, show movie clips, and award a scholarship for an essay. It really bears out the magnificent Orwell quote above. Self-awareness prevents physical description. The group is divided into Trots and unreconstructed Stalinists who want you to know what a lying, objectively pro-fascist, bourgeois wrecker George Orwell was. The highlight is a clip of a fluffy propaganda movie that clearly presents the situation in oversimplistic terms (which generates a fierce debate on the floor about which subset of Reds obstructed which piece of international aid).

  178. @Olorin
    @Paleo Liberal

    You are correct about the WI SC, about Epic (SC also ruled Billionaire Judy can require all workers to give up the right to trial by jury as a condition of employment), and also that the preening Dane County morality that passes as super liberal, left, or progressive is often 1A rapacious shekel-grubbing behind closed doors. Sometimes it's pro-bidness, sometimes it's flogging the slaves on the tax plantation.

    I'm of the view that this is why they excoriate white men. On the one hand they depend on the proven productivity and orderliness of Wisconsin white men for their shekels--whether it's through the private or public sectors--and terrific standard of community living. On the other, admitting that would pinch, so scapegoating ensues. I see it as highly primitive religious thinking.

    This is also why I've never felt comfortable with election-cycle meme-project of talking about "leftism/communism/socialism" as the entire problem politically, socially, and economically.

    For the problem is also the Repugs, who resemble not in the least their founding ancestors in Ripon who opposed the Kansas-Nebraska Act, and so created a new party out of the riven Whigs and Dems. And btw laid the groundwork for the Civil War. All because some eastern railroad men wanted to win a bit on iron horses.

    But now we're supposed to enjoy Donald Trump's command and subversion of the MSM, get our aprons in a heave, and go vote straight R in November.

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal

    I learned long ago that the entire point of identity politics is so the oligarchs can divide the rest of us.

    As long as we are divided — white, black, brown, red, yellow, right-wing, left-wing, native-born, immigrant, etc., we are easily led like lambs to the slaughter, with many of the ethnic leaders as the Judas goats.

    • Replies: @Charles Pewitt
    @Paleo Liberal


    I learned long ago that the entire point of identity politics is so the oligarchs can divide the rest of us.

     

    The point of all politics is to be the ruling class or have sufficient countervailing power to keep the ruling class in check.
  179. @The Wild Geese Howard
    This is funny.

    Just the other day everyone was having an enormous circle-jerk about how amazing and beautiful Wisconsin is.

    One Confederate memorial gets erased and now everyone is damning it as the 9th circle of Hell.

    How the worm turns!

    Replies: @J.Ross

    Howard, it’s Wisconsin. I recall that conversation: the point was that it’s a hair better than Michigan. Go on, tell us about the Dells.

  180. @PaceLaw
    @res

    Stop being silly. My argument was not that we should do as Isis or Al Qaeda, but rather that we should not have memorials to our enemies. By your reasoning, you would be comfortable if the Saudi government offered to put a memorial to the 9/11 hijackers in New York.

    Replies: @dwb

    This is sophistry taken to a new level.

    First, the cemetery is not being sponsored by the US government.

    Second, you are equating uniformed soldiers who were fighting in an army raised by a government (I have no idea if all 140 soldiers were volunteers, were conscripted, just how they came to be under Southern colors) with 19 criminals who captured aircraft and used them to attack civilian targets.

    Third, even CRIMINALS get buried in cemeteries with headstones. Whatever their reasons for fighting in the Confederate Army, it’s a stretch to call them criminals.

    Fourth, the “memorial” is a marker naming the people buried there. It’s not a memorial to their cause, which is, what I suspect, what a “memorial to the 9/11 hijackers” would be.

  181. We are often reminded these days to never punch Down and always Punch up. But that raises the question of: Who is Down and who is Up?

    I think that crystallizes the issue precisely and goes a long way to explain the current cultural and political condition — Every potential victim group in America is engaged in a fierce “race to the bottom” to maximize their up-punching privilege.

    As Madison illustrates, however, being a white male concentration-camp victim from a country that was invaded and conquered by the United States still puts you at the bottom (or is it the top?) of the up-punching “hierarchy.”

    Thought Experiment: What if we pretended the memorial was for 140 members of an Indian tribe (most of which practiced slavery, incidentally) who fought for independence against the United States but were captured and herded into a tubercular prison camp. It’s usually pointless to play the “what if we switched the races” game. But sometimes it is helpful in isolating the exact variable that makes one “punch-able.”

  182. @dwb
    @William Badwhite

    When I read this, I thought that it was either a joke, or exaggerated. Removing a stone in a cemetery that lists the names of 140 people buried in that cemetery in a more or less communal grave?

    It's not any sort of "monument" to the Southern cause. It commemorates 140 soldiers who died while in custody.

    "Pace Law" has got to be someone who just is too young to understand the difference between a soldier, who fights under the uniform of even an enemy nation (and we could argue about whether the CSA was an enemy of the US) and "antifa" criminals (who if killed while literally trying to bomb Capitol Hill itself would still be buried in a cemetery with a headstone.)

    This is why countries sign on to the Geneva Convention, Pace. Because a soldier is by tradition an anonymous combatant. On the battlefield, they kill our soldiers - it's why they are there - but if captured, and not brought up on murder charges.

    It is understood that an enemy soldier is acting, again, somewhat anonymously under orders of his government. Our quarrel is with them, not him.

    We could certainly argue that the Confederacy was a foreign enemy nation. We could surely argue that their causus belli was wrong. But in the end, these were soldiers. And they were human beings. A cemetery marker marks their humanity, it does not celebrate their cause.

    As others said, there are German military ceremonies all over Europe - and surely the Nazi government is the gold standard for an evil regime.

    It is simply beyond belief that, in a university town, a city council would remove a memorial to soldiers who were basically killed while POWs in their city. They aren't even being ahistorical fools.

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal

    The soldiers still have individual tombstones. This Confederate Rest is part of a larger cemetery owned by the city on a street called Speedway which ironically has a 30 mph speed limit. The street runs diagonally through the cemetery with a golf course on one end and West High School on the other.

    By city law it is no longer permitted to place Confederate flags on the tombstones.

    A plaque placed by the Daughters of the Confederacy commemorating the soldiers and the Madison lady who championed the cause of the Confederate Rest was removed a couple of years ago because Confederate. The compromise was to remove the plaque but keep the stone with the names engraved.

    Now the compromise is to store the stone marker and donate it to a museum.

    Ironically far more people will see it in a museum than the handful of people who visit the Confederate Rest.

    I have never been to the cemetery, although I frequently drive on Speedway

  183. @William Badwhite
    @J.Ross

    And also likely an immigrant or descended from immigrants who arrived post 1865. People who had ancestors here at that time, whether Confederate or Union, understand the whole reconciliation thing as well as the complexity of the issues. That is, assuming they had literate ancestors that wrote about these matters.

    More recent arrivals have received the sum total of their "Civil War" knowledge from the leftist propaganda machines.

    He's just another internet loudmouth/faux tough guy. My list of "commenters to ignore" just got longer.

    Replies: @John Gruskos

    Well said.

  184. @Tom-in-VA
    @PaceLaw

    1. Because they are still Americans.
    2. Because they died while in Union custody.
    3. Because civilized people treat even enemy dead with respect.
    4. Because barbarians want to erase our history, our culture, and our people, and we can’t let them.

    Replies: @PaceLaw, @Veracitor, @njguy73, @John Gruskos

    Exactly.

  185. @Anonymous
    I wonder what poor old Ken Burns thinks about it all. He was the kindly PBS gentleman 10-15 years ago, but his famous Civil War documentary looks like the sick, racist propaganda of a right wing nutbar now. Things change quickly these days and you have to be very cautious not to get the incorrect outlook immortalized on film like that.

    Replies: @Gunner

    Burns is a full on Trump hater, so I am guessing he ignores his even handed Civil War past.

  186. @Chris Mallory
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    Confederates were Americans defending their homes against the Yankee invaders. Hessians were German mercenary trash who should have been left to the scavengers. Buzzards got to eat, same as worms.

    Replies: @Samuel Skinner

    It is better when mercenaries fight war for coin because it means the people in charge have to pay for the willingness to kill. Leave them and you get the nation in arms and all the horrors and bloodshed that holds.

  187. Posted it before, but here’s the eloquent passage from Henry James’ The Bostonians where Basil Ransom visits Harvard’s Memorial Hall:

    “Now there is one place where perhaps it would be indelicate to take a Mississippian,” Verena said, after this episode. “I mean the great place that towers above the others—that big building with the beautiful pinnacles, which you see from every point.” But Basil Ransom had heard of the great Memorial Hall; he knew what memories it enshrined, and the worst that he should have to suffer there; and the ornate, overtopping structure, which was the finest piece of architecture he had ever seen, had moreover solicited his enlarged curiosity for the last half-hour. He thought there was rather too much brick about it, but it was buttressed, cloistered, turreted, dedicated, superscribed, as he had never seen anything; though it didn’t look old, it looked significant; it covered a large area, and it sprang majestic into the winter air. It was detached from the rest of the collegiate group, and stood in a grassy triangle of its own. As he approached it with Verena she suddenly stopped, to decline responsibility. “Now mind, if you don’t like what’s inside, it isn’t my fault.”

    He looked at her an instant, smiling. “Is there anything against Mississippi?”

    “Well, no, I don’t think she is mentioned. But there is great praise of our young men in the war.”

    “It says they were brave, I suppose.”

    “Yes, it says so in Latin.”

    “Well, so they were—I know something about that,” Basil Ransom said. “I must be brave enough to face them—it isn’t the first time.”

    And they went up the low steps and passed into the tall doors. The Memorial Hall of Harvard consists of three main divisions: one of them a theatre, for academic ceremonies; another a vast refectory, covered with a timbered roof, hung about with portraits and lighted by stained windows, like the halls of the colleges of Oxford; and the third, the most interesting, a chamber high, dim, and severe, consecrated to the sons of the university who fell in the long Civil War. Ransom and his companion wandered from one part of the building to another, and stayed their steps at several impressive points; but they lingered longest in the presence of the white, ranged tablets, each of which, in its proud, sad clearness, is inscribed with the name of a student-soldier. The effect of the place is singularly noble and solemn, and it is impossible to feel it without a lifting of the heart. It stands there for duty and honour, it speaks of sacrifice and example, seems a kind of temple to youth, manhood, generosity. Most of them were young, all were in their prime, and all of them had fallen; this simple idea hovers before the visitor and makes him read with tenderness each name and place—names often without other history, and forgotten Southern battles. For Ransom these things were not a challenge nor a taunt; they touched him with respect, with the sentiment of beauty. He was capable of being a generous foeman, and he forgot, now, the whole question of sides and parties; the simple emotion of the old fighting-time came back to him, and the monument around him seemed an embodiment of that memory; it arched over friends as well as enemies, the victims of defeat as well as the sons of triumph.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    @syonredux


    “I must be brave enough to face them—it isn’t the first time.”
     
    I guess that's the problem. Not everyone is that brave.
  188. @Olorin
    @Paleo Liberal

    Uh...that's not what I heard about Stu on this topic.

    https://davidblaska.com/2018/07/23/confederate-rest-stone-is-too-big-for-stu-levitan-its-got-to-go/comment-page-1/

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal

    I was not aware that Stu Levitan had succumbed to political pressure on this issue. I have no idea why.

  189. @Pericles
    @Rosamond Vincy

    He never died, say I.

    Replies: @Rosamond Vincy

    Classic SNL episodes expressed doubt.

  190. @syonredux
    Posted it before, but here’s the eloquent passage from Henry James’ The Bostonians where Basil Ransom visits Harvard’s Memorial Hall:

    “Now there is one place where perhaps it would be indelicate to take a Mississippian,” Verena said, after this episode. “I mean the great place that towers above the others—that big building with the beautiful pinnacles, which you see from every point.” But Basil Ransom had heard of the great Memorial Hall; he knew what memories it enshrined, and the worst that he should have to suffer there; and the ornate, overtopping structure, which was the finest piece of architecture he had ever seen, had moreover solicited his enlarged curiosity for the last half-hour. He thought there was rather too much brick about it, but it was buttressed, cloistered, turreted, dedicated, superscribed, as he had never seen anything; though it didn’t look old, it looked significant; it covered a large area, and it sprang majestic into the winter air. It was detached from the rest of the collegiate group, and stood in a grassy triangle of its own. As he approached it with Verena she suddenly stopped, to decline responsibility. “Now mind, if you don’t like what’s inside, it isn’t my fault.”
     

    He looked at her an instant, smiling. “Is there anything against Mississippi?”

    “Well, no, I don’t think she is mentioned. But there is great praise of our young men in the war.”

    “It says they were brave, I suppose.”

    “Yes, it says so in Latin.”

    “Well, so they were—I know something about that,” Basil Ransom said. “I must be brave enough to face them—it isn’t the first time.”

     

    And they went up the low steps and passed into the tall doors. The Memorial Hall of Harvard consists of three main divisions: one of them a theatre, for academic ceremonies; another a vast refectory, covered with a timbered roof, hung about with portraits and lighted by stained windows, like the halls of the colleges of Oxford; and the third, the most interesting, a chamber high, dim, and severe, consecrated to the sons of the university who fell in the long Civil War. Ransom and his companion wandered from one part of the building to another, and stayed their steps at several impressive points; but they lingered longest in the presence of the white, ranged tablets, each of which, in its proud, sad clearness, is inscribed with the name of a student-soldier. The effect of the place is singularly noble and solemn, and it is impossible to feel it without a lifting of the heart. It stands there for duty and honour, it speaks of sacrifice and example, seems a kind of temple to youth, manhood, generosity. Most of them were young, all were in their prime, and all of them had fallen; this simple idea hovers before the visitor and makes him read with tenderness each name and place—names often without other history, and forgotten Southern battles. For Ransom these things were not a challenge nor a taunt; they touched him with respect, with the sentiment of beauty. He was capable of being a generous foeman, and he forgot, now, the whole question of sides and parties; the simple emotion of the old fighting-time came back to him, and the monument around him seemed an embodiment of that memory; it arched over friends as well as enemies, the victims of defeat as well as the sons of triumph.

     

    https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7016/6638877617_af9c364f2f_b.jpg

    Replies: @Rosamond Vincy

    “I must be brave enough to face them—it isn’t the first time.”

    I guess that’s the problem. Not everyone is that brave.

  191. @Paleo Liberal
    @Olorin

    I learned long ago that the entire point of identity politics is so the oligarchs can divide the rest of us.

    As long as we are divided -- white, black, brown, red, yellow, right-wing, left-wing, native-born, immigrant, etc., we are easily led like lambs to the slaughter, with many of the ethnic leaders as the Judas goats.

    Replies: @Charles Pewitt

    I learned long ago that the entire point of identity politics is so the oligarchs can divide the rest of us.

    The point of all politics is to be the ruling class or have sufficient countervailing power to keep the ruling class in check.

  192. @Veracitor
    @PaceLaw

    1. Confederates as Americans? Yeah, we're serious, because we are also Americans and we didn't sleep through our history or law classes. A few irreconcilables fled the country after the Civil War-- the rest, and all the honored dead, were and therefore are Americans, per the judgement of their contemporaries, by which we are bound legally and morally.

    2. Of course we have memorials to WWII Axis PW's who died in custody in the US: "About 860 German POWs remain buried in 43 sites across the United States, with their graves often tended by local German Women's Clubs. [Wikipedia]"

    3. Tell that to the North Vietnamese, even with respect to the French. Once again, someone seems to have been sleeping through history class. Another example: The British won the War of 1812 in Canada-- but the graves of the Americans who fell there have been respected for over 200 years.

    4. !

    Replies: @PaceLaw, @Diversity Heretic

    I’ve seen the marked graves of three German and three Italian POW’s who died in captivity at Warren Air Force Base outside Cheyenne, Wyoming. They are outside the fence containing American military dead, but the graves are identified in the same manner as are the Americans and are tended just the same. There are numerous German military cemeteries in France and Belgium with memorials to the dead soldiers. Even the Russians are allowing Germans to disenterre, identify if possible and rebury their dead from World War II. There were rumors that the Germans had desecrated the Commonwealth War Graves of Great Britain from World War I during the occupation of World War II, but this was not the case–the graves and the monuments were left intact.

    The actions of the Madison City Council are despicable.

  193. @Anonymous
    A wider point is that after the elapse of a certain period of time - generally when several generations have passed - and there are no personal known living connections to the deceased, the 'sanctity' and 'integrity' of graves and the human remains therein becomes a theoretical point, and more of a question of 'land management' than anything.

    Inevitably, as time passes, the personal connections to particular graves are lost, as are the reverence for the bones.

    Replies: @Cortes, @Diversity Heretic

    Tell that to the people who continue to visit the Commonwealth War Graves in France and Belgium, or to the people who visit the military cemeteries maintained by the American Battle Monuments Commission. In a real society with a real sense of history, people understand that they are the transmitters of a culture bequeathed to them by ancestors (widely construed) who lie in cemeteries and that they should pass it on to their posterity. Tearing down memorials is a way of breaking that chain, which is exactly what the type of people who sit on the Madison City Council want to do.

  194. @Paleo Liberal
    @vinteuil

    Interesting.

    Please realize there are many of us in Madison, even those if us who would be a few miles left of center in the rest of the country, who agree with you.

    Replies: @vinteuil

    Please realize there are many of us in Madison, even those if us who would be a few miles left of center in the rest of the country, who agree with you.

    The people of Thebes, innocent or guilty, are punished, all alike, for the uncleanness.

    The Gods of the copy-book headings are like that.

    Those Greeks – they knew some stuff.

  195. @njguy73
    @vinteuil

    What are these "Gods" of which you speak?

    Replies: @vinteuil

    What are these “Gods” of which you speak?

    …les forces qui nous surveillant de l’autre côté de la mort…

  196. @Anonymous
    @CCZ

    This stone isn't even a celebration or glorification of the dead, it's merely a historical marker with a clinical statement of fact. It's really sad to witness this sort of insanity taking hold. Nothing good can possibly come from this sort of nonsense.

    Replies: @vinteuil

    Nothing good can possibly come from this sort of nonsense.

    This is not nonsense. This is the devil, at his exercise.

  197. @Olorin
    @vinteuil


    The city of Madison is violating a foundational value of Western civilization.
     
    Feature. Not bug.

    Replies: @vinteuil

    Feature. Not bug.

    Yes. It is not just wrong. It is diabolical.

  198. Anonymous[170] • Disclaimer says:

    I wonder what they will replace this with, a memorial to Michael Brown? This reminds me of the libs in Baltimore tearing down a monument to Gen. Lee and replacing it with one to the trans actor Devine. Ended up thinking maybe they were right to do so after all. Lee was renowned for his leadership, courage, honesty, integrity and his faithfulness to God, home and country. Devine was an obese disgusting trans joke who was best known for eating a dog turd off the road. They were just swapping out statues for one that was a better representative for the current residents of Baltimore.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Anonymous


    Lee was renowned for his leadership, courage, honesty, integrity and his faithfulness to God, home and country. Devine was an obese disgusting trans joke who was best known for eating a dog turd off the road.
     
    So Babe Ruth was the midpoint between these extremes? Compromise and put up a statue of him.

    Oh, wait...


    http://monumentcity.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/babe-ruth-camden-yards-baltimore-md-650.jpg
  199. @Samuel Skinner
    @Reg Cæsar


    If you believe black Africans have a place in North America, then you agree with the Confederates, and not with the Union Soldiers, who came from states that were 98% white, and who held no such illusions. Admit it.
     
    You missed the kicker:
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/8319858/Abraham-Lincoln-wanted-to-deport-slaves-to-new-colonies.html

    Lincoln wanted to ship blacks out of the country and was attempting it in 1865. He had gone through with a colonization attempt in 1863 to Haiti. Leaving aside black competency, placing them in areas that are filled with tropical diseases is a wonderful way to get alot of them killed.

    (I bet you also believe blacks shouldn’t be allowed to possess handguns– exactly what the Confederates felt.)
     
    Sort of. Colonial codes and post 1832 (Nat Turner rebellion) restricted slave ownership of weapons. The exception is Texas where the state was not given the power to restrict guns for anyone.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Reg Cæsar

    Leaving aside black competency, placing them in areas that are filled with tropical diseases is a wonderful way to get alot of them killed.

    Aren’t blacks from the tropics?

  200. Anonymous[170] • Disclaimer says:

    Gee, looking into the names of the council members who pushed for the removal should it come as no surprise that there are triple parentheses front and center with some people of color? They really go out of their way to support Hitler’s contention that everywhere you find this agitation and political unrest in society you find them.

  201. istevefan says:
    @PaceLaw
    @istevefan

    Good question, but entirely irrelevant to today’s politics. Not surprised at all as to the German monuments to the dead in Russia after World War II. There were so many of them.

    Replies: @istevefan

    Good question, but entirely irrelevant to today’s politics. Not surprised at all as to the German monuments to the dead in Russia after World War II. There were so many of them.

    I think you are missing the point. The number of Germans who fought and died in Russia is immaterial. The reason they fought and died in Russia is. And to the Russians the Germans came to essentially ethnically cleanse them from their land with mass killings of civilians being part of the equation. The Russians have every reason to not allow any German grave markers in their nation, and I doubt anyone would seriously criticize them for it.

    As for the Confederates in Madison, they never tried to ethnically cleanse the people of Wisconsin from their land. They only wanted to break out of the union with Wisconsin which is not even within several orders of magnitude what the Germans did to the Russians. The fact that the Russians are able to act like adults while the people of Madison cannot is telling.

    • Replies: @PaceLaw
    @istevefan

    Not buying it my friend! We don’t know what the Confederates would’ve done to the kind people of Madison, Wisconsin because they never had an opportunity to execute their plans! They were POWs in Wisconsin, not an invading army, an important distinction! More than likely, if the Confederates had invaded that far North, they would have killed or enslaved the entire black population of Wisconsin. I think that constitutes ethnic cleansing. Just saying . . .

    Replies: @istevefan

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @istevefan


    As for the Confederates in Madison, they never tried to ethnically cleanse the people of Wisconsin from their land.

     

    Their grandpappies had already done that with the Cherokee.

    They only wanted to break out of the union with Wisconsin...
     
    ...which was far too white for their tastes. Wisconsin's child, the Republican Party, was right in its 1856 platform: Polygamy and slavery are the twin relics of barbarism. The problem was that Wisconsin should have seceded, along with the rest of the free (i.e., white) states.

    Both sides were fighting for greater diversity, which means both sides were wrong. Even suicidal. The political arguments about secession and tariffs were also a whole order of magnitude removed from that, though to the smaller side. That each side's arguments were often seen made by the other at various times ought to demonstrate that.

    Replies: @istevefan

  202. @vinteuil
    @PaceLaw

    In the Antigone of Sophocles, Creon, King of Thebes, refuses burial rights to Polyneices, who had rebelled against the city and been killed leading an army of Argives against it. This refusal to give due respect to the dead - even to a dead traitor - offends the Gods.

    Thebes is morally polluted. Disaster ensues for all concerned.

    The city of Madison is violating a foundational value of Western civilization.

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal, @njguy73, @Olorin, @Anonymous, @bomag

    True. But the majority in Madison City Council know anything or care about the history and values of Western civilization.

  203. @Samuel Skinner
    @Reg Cæsar


    If you believe black Africans have a place in North America, then you agree with the Confederates, and not with the Union Soldiers, who came from states that were 98% white, and who held no such illusions. Admit it.
     
    You missed the kicker:
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/8319858/Abraham-Lincoln-wanted-to-deport-slaves-to-new-colonies.html

    Lincoln wanted to ship blacks out of the country and was attempting it in 1865. He had gone through with a colonization attempt in 1863 to Haiti. Leaving aside black competency, placing them in areas that are filled with tropical diseases is a wonderful way to get alot of them killed.

    (I bet you also believe blacks shouldn’t be allowed to possess handguns– exactly what the Confederates felt.)
     
    Sort of. Colonial codes and post 1832 (Nat Turner rebellion) restricted slave ownership of weapons. The exception is Texas where the state was not given the power to restrict guns for anyone.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Reg Cæsar

    You missed the kicker:

    Lincoln wanted to ship blacks out of the country and was attempting it in 1865.

    You missed the kicker: he was right to do so.

    If the planters didn’t like it, they could have paid white men enough to do the job. Or follow their charges to Africa.

    Colonial codes and post 1832 (Nat Turner rebellion) restricted slave ownership of weapons.

    “Free Negroes and mulattoes” were also banned from possessing weapons.

    Eg, Section XII Article 83 of the The Revised Code of the Statute Laws of the State of Mississippi:

    No free negro or mulatto shall be suffered to keep any fire-arms of any kind…

    Virginia, 1832:

    No free negro or mulatto shall be suffered to keep or carry any firelock of any kind…

    The Revised Statutes of the State of Missouri, Volume 2:

    No free negro or mulatto shall be suffered to keep or carry any firelock…

    • Replies: @Samuel Skinner
    @Reg Cæsar


    You missed the kicker: he was right to do so.
     
    Not really- the problem with blacks is stupidity and violence, they are not a threat to the existence of the white population except if their proportion is over 90%. By contrast other groups of white people are a threat to the Anglo-Saxon population. Lincoln should have stopped importing foreigners into the United States.

    Kicking out the blacks doesn't solve the rot.

    If the planters didn’t like it, they could have paid white men enough to do the job. Or follow their charges to Africa.
     
    Southerners would have been fine with that (see William Walker). Dumping blacks outside the United States is tantamount to a death sentence for most of them; oddly Southerners were not okay with that. Apparently murdering people they are close to upsets them.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

  204. @vinteuil
    @PaceLaw

    In the Antigone of Sophocles, Creon, King of Thebes, refuses burial rights to Polyneices, who had rebelled against the city and been killed leading an army of Argives against it. This refusal to give due respect to the dead - even to a dead traitor - offends the Gods.

    Thebes is morally polluted. Disaster ensues for all concerned.

    The city of Madison is violating a foundational value of Western civilization.

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal, @njguy73, @Olorin, @Anonymous, @bomag

    Thanks for that.

    I’m suspecting that it is pretty universal in literature to have the bad guys be the ones disturbing the dead in some way.

  205. @istevefan
    @PaceLaw


    Good question, but entirely irrelevant to today’s politics. Not surprised at all as to the German monuments to the dead in Russia after World War II. There were so many of them.
     
    I think you are missing the point. The number of Germans who fought and died in Russia is immaterial. The reason they fought and died in Russia is. And to the Russians the Germans came to essentially ethnically cleanse them from their land with mass killings of civilians being part of the equation. The Russians have every reason to not allow any German grave markers in their nation, and I doubt anyone would seriously criticize them for it.

    As for the Confederates in Madison, they never tried to ethnically cleanse the people of Wisconsin from their land. They only wanted to break out of the union with Wisconsin which is not even within several orders of magnitude what the Germans did to the Russians. The fact that the Russians are able to act like adults while the people of Madison cannot is telling.

    Replies: @PaceLaw, @Reg Cæsar

    Not buying it my friend! We don’t know what the Confederates would’ve done to the kind people of Madison, Wisconsin because they never had an opportunity to execute their plans! They were POWs in Wisconsin, not an invading army, an important distinction! More than likely, if the Confederates had invaded that far North, they would have killed or enslaved the entire black population of Wisconsin. I think that constitutes ethnic cleansing. Just saying . . .

    • Troll: bomag
    • Replies: @istevefan
    @PaceLaw


    They were POWs in Wisconsin, not an invading army, an important distinction!
     
    And that is the distinction you are failing to make in regards to Russia. The Germans invaded, burned the place down to the ground and had plans to implement Generalplan Ost. Yet despite this the Russians allow German memorials on their soil when survivors of WW2 are still alive with all their memories of that horror show.

    Meanwhile the good people of Madison won't even allow a small tombstone to collectively commemorate some 1oo-plus Confederates who died there and whose monument has been their for over a century. Additionally no one associated with that period has been alive for over fifty years.

    Not buying it my friend! We don’t know what the Confederates would’ve done to the kind people of Madison, Wisconsin because they never had an opportunity to execute their plans!

     

    I doubt they would have destroyed Madison or the state of Wisconsin like the Union did to Atlanta, the state of Georgia and other large tracts of the South.
  206. @Samuel Skinner
    @Reg Cæsar


    It was in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, as Shay’s was in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. The interference came from outside those jurisdictions.
     
    Whisky Rebellion was an uprising against a federal law so had a federal reaction.

    I am not a “Yankee”. I live far outside New England. Many of my paternal ancestors were, though, and sometimes I have pie for breakfast. And nowhere did I say or imply anything about a “more moral person”, a nonsensical, even un-Christian concept. You’re just projecting.
     

    Sovereignty for me, not for thee.
     
    Yeah, declaring your opponents are hypocrites acting purely in their own interests (unlike you who is selfless and nearer to the Godhood) is completely unique and has never been done by Yankees ever before.

    Are Negroes “Persons”, or livestock? If the free (i.e., white) states declared them to be non-persons, then there would be no issue. The planters would have to take it to the Supreme Court.
     
    The answer depends on the category and individual in question. Slaves may count as livestock but free blacks do not.

    And a Negro-majority jurisdiction sounds nothing like a republic.
     
    Republics are non-monarchical states.

    Whichever is most convenient at the moment.
     
    So weird a legal category results in individuals being treated differently in different legal situation.

    Total self assurance and total ignorance. Nothing less then I'd expect from your kind.

    At least you have one point of agreement– that it is good to have African Negroes in America.
     
    -complains about projection
    -projects

    Black slaves were good for the elite and net cost for everyone.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Reg Cæsar

    Black slaves were good for the elite and net cost for everyone.

    Well, there is another point of agreement between you and your mirror image, “Pace Law”. He claims the Southern states were political traitors. You admit they were race traitors.

    The only people who want to dig up these issues today are the descendants of those who lost and the descendants of those who missed it entirely. Most normal white folks today would see the Gettysburg reunions of 1913 and 1938 as inspiring. You and Pace can go have it out in your own mud pit.

    • Replies: @Samuel Skinner
    @Reg Cæsar


    You admit they were race traitors.
     
    No, the planter elite were not race traitors. You can have functional states with an inferior underclass (see India). Slavery helped keep out other groups of whites so in the long run it may have protected the South from ethnic conflict and discord between whites that will probably envelop the rest of the country.

    The only people who want to dig up these issues today are the descendants of those who lost and the descendants of those who missed it entirely.
     
    Race and immigration are still political issues and for the same exact reason they were in the 19th century.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

  207. @istevefan
    @PaceLaw


    Good question, but entirely irrelevant to today’s politics. Not surprised at all as to the German monuments to the dead in Russia after World War II. There were so many of them.
     
    I think you are missing the point. The number of Germans who fought and died in Russia is immaterial. The reason they fought and died in Russia is. And to the Russians the Germans came to essentially ethnically cleanse them from their land with mass killings of civilians being part of the equation. The Russians have every reason to not allow any German grave markers in their nation, and I doubt anyone would seriously criticize them for it.

    As for the Confederates in Madison, they never tried to ethnically cleanse the people of Wisconsin from their land. They only wanted to break out of the union with Wisconsin which is not even within several orders of magnitude what the Germans did to the Russians. The fact that the Russians are able to act like adults while the people of Madison cannot is telling.

    Replies: @PaceLaw, @Reg Cæsar

    As for the Confederates in Madison, they never tried to ethnically cleanse the people of Wisconsin from their land.

    Their grandpappies had already done that with the Cherokee.

    They only wanted to break out of the union with Wisconsin…

    …which was far too white for their tastes. Wisconsin’s child, the Republican Party, was right in its 1856 platform: Polygamy and slavery are the twin relics of barbarism. The problem was that Wisconsin should have seceded, along with the rest of the free (i.e., white) states.

    Both sides were fighting for greater diversity, which means both sides were wrong. Even suicidal. The political arguments about secession and tariffs were also a whole order of magnitude removed from that, though to the smaller side. That each side’s arguments were often seen made by the other at various times ought to demonstrate that.

    • Replies: @istevefan
    @Reg Cæsar


    Their grandpappies had already done that with the Cherokee.
     
    What did the Northerners do to the various tribes they encountered? At least Cherokees still exist today. Some of the tribes in the North no longer exist.

    Both sides were fighting for greater diversity, which means both sides were wrong. Even suicidal. The political arguments about secession and tariffs were also a whole order of magnitude removed from that, though to the smaller side. That each side’s arguments were often seen made by the other at various times ought to demonstrate that.
     
    I don't know why they call it the Civil War. When I think about civil war, I think of two or more sides fighting to control the country's government. It seems to me the South was fighting a war of secession in which they wanted out. They were not fighting to control the US government and the rest of the states. It was the North that wanted to keep the South in the Union.

    The original 13 colonies each ratified the Constitution to form the Union. I don't recall any of them ever being told that once they joined they could never leave. So I don't see why those states could not have left the Union the same way they joined it, namely by having their state legislature decide.

    Now one might make a different argument for those states that came after the original 13. I believe those states not only had to ratify the Constitution, but had to get approval from the existing states in the form of Congressional approval for admission. So one might argue the rest of the Union had some say in their exit.

    Replies: @Corvinus, @Reg Cæsar

  208. @Anonymous
    I wonder what they will replace this with, a memorial to Michael Brown? This reminds me of the libs in Baltimore tearing down a monument to Gen. Lee and replacing it with one to the trans actor Devine. Ended up thinking maybe they were right to do so after all. Lee was renowned for his leadership, courage, honesty, integrity and his faithfulness to God, home and country. Devine was an obese disgusting trans joke who was best known for eating a dog turd off the road. They were just swapping out statues for one that was a better representative for the current residents of Baltimore.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Lee was renowned for his leadership, courage, honesty, integrity and his faithfulness to God, home and country. Devine was an obese disgusting trans joke who was best known for eating a dog turd off the road.

    So Babe Ruth was the midpoint between these extremes? Compromise and put up a statue of him.

    Oh, wait…

  209. istevefan says:
    @PaceLaw
    @istevefan

    Not buying it my friend! We don’t know what the Confederates would’ve done to the kind people of Madison, Wisconsin because they never had an opportunity to execute their plans! They were POWs in Wisconsin, not an invading army, an important distinction! More than likely, if the Confederates had invaded that far North, they would have killed or enslaved the entire black population of Wisconsin. I think that constitutes ethnic cleansing. Just saying . . .

    Replies: @istevefan

    They were POWs in Wisconsin, not an invading army, an important distinction!

    And that is the distinction you are failing to make in regards to Russia. The Germans invaded, burned the place down to the ground and had plans to implement Generalplan Ost. Yet despite this the Russians allow German memorials on their soil when survivors of WW2 are still alive with all their memories of that horror show.

    Meanwhile the good people of Madison won’t even allow a small tombstone to collectively commemorate some 1oo-plus Confederates who died there and whose monument has been their for over a century. Additionally no one associated with that period has been alive for over fifty years.

    Not buying it my friend! We don’t know what the Confederates would’ve done to the kind people of Madison, Wisconsin because they never had an opportunity to execute their plans!

    I doubt they would have destroyed Madison or the state of Wisconsin like the Union did to Atlanta, the state of Georgia and other large tracts of the South.

  210. istevefan says:
    @Reg Cæsar
    @istevefan


    As for the Confederates in Madison, they never tried to ethnically cleanse the people of Wisconsin from their land.

     

    Their grandpappies had already done that with the Cherokee.

    They only wanted to break out of the union with Wisconsin...
     
    ...which was far too white for their tastes. Wisconsin's child, the Republican Party, was right in its 1856 platform: Polygamy and slavery are the twin relics of barbarism. The problem was that Wisconsin should have seceded, along with the rest of the free (i.e., white) states.

    Both sides were fighting for greater diversity, which means both sides were wrong. Even suicidal. The political arguments about secession and tariffs were also a whole order of magnitude removed from that, though to the smaller side. That each side's arguments were often seen made by the other at various times ought to demonstrate that.

    Replies: @istevefan

    Their grandpappies had already done that with the Cherokee.

    What did the Northerners do to the various tribes they encountered? At least Cherokees still exist today. Some of the tribes in the North no longer exist.

    Both sides were fighting for greater diversity, which means both sides were wrong. Even suicidal. The political arguments about secession and tariffs were also a whole order of magnitude removed from that, though to the smaller side. That each side’s arguments were often seen made by the other at various times ought to demonstrate that.

    I don’t know why they call it the Civil War. When I think about civil war, I think of two or more sides fighting to control the country’s government. It seems to me the South was fighting a war of secession in which they wanted out. They were not fighting to control the US government and the rest of the states. It was the North that wanted to keep the South in the Union.

    The original 13 colonies each ratified the Constitution to form the Union. I don’t recall any of them ever being told that once they joined they could never leave. So I don’t see why those states could not have left the Union the same way they joined it, namely by having their state legislature decide.

    Now one might make a different argument for those states that came after the original 13. I believe those states not only had to ratify the Constitution, but had to get approval from the existing states in the form of Congressional approval for admission. So one might argue the rest of the Union had some say in their exit.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @istevefan

    "It was the North that wanted to keep the South in the Union."

    No, it was Americans, northerners and southerners, who sought to keep the Union intact. You do realize that there were southern Unionists, right?

    Replies: @istevefan

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @istevefan


    What did the Northerners do to the various tribes they encountered? At least Cherokees still exist today. Some of the tribes in the North no longer exist.

     

    WTF are "Northerners"?

    Anyway, the New England tribes were nearly obliterated by disease before the Mayflower landed. The surviving tribes had mixed relations with the English. The allies in the Pequot War were the enemy in King Phillip's, and vice versa. There are plenty of Indians in New York today. And in the border states. (Canadian border, that is.) The Oneidas are in Wisconsin now, the Wyandots in Oklahoma. And casinos are everywhere.

    I don’t know why they call it the Civil War.

     

    It was very much a civil war within the states. The white counties of Virginia left the Commonwealth. The white Appalachian counties in other states would have liked to follow suit, as far down as Alabama. If Lincoln were shrewd, he'd have grabbed those white counties, and left the diverse ones to go their own multicultural way.
  211. @Reg Cæsar
    @Samuel Skinner


    You missed the kicker:

    Lincoln wanted to ship blacks out of the country and was attempting it in 1865.
     

    You missed the kicker: he was right to do so.

    If the planters didn't like it, they could have paid white men enough to do the job. Or follow their charges to Africa.


    Colonial codes and post 1832 (Nat Turner rebellion) restricted slave ownership of weapons.

     

    "Free Negroes and mulattoes" were also banned from possessing weapons.

    Eg, Section XII Article 83 of the The Revised Code of the Statute Laws of the State of Mississippi:

    No free negro or mulatto shall be suffered to keep any fire-arms of any kind...

    Virginia, 1832:

    No free negro or mulatto shall be suffered to keep or carry any firelock of any kind...

    The Revised Statutes of the State of Missouri, Volume 2:

    No free negro or mulatto shall be suffered to keep or carry any firelock...

    Replies: @Samuel Skinner

    You missed the kicker: he was right to do so.

    Not really- the problem with blacks is stupidity and violence, they are not a threat to the existence of the white population except if their proportion is over 90%. By contrast other groups of white people are a threat to the Anglo-Saxon population. Lincoln should have stopped importing foreigners into the United States.

    Kicking out the blacks doesn’t solve the rot.

    If the planters didn’t like it, they could have paid white men enough to do the job. Or follow their charges to Africa.

    Southerners would have been fine with that (see William Walker). Dumping blacks outside the United States is tantamount to a death sentence for most of them; oddly Southerners were not okay with that. Apparently murdering people they are close to upsets them.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Samuel Skinner


    Not really- the problem with blacks is stupidity and violence, they are not a threat to the existence of the white population except if their proportion is over 90%.
     
    So what's the point of bringing millions of stupid and violent individuals into your territory?

    Kicking out the blacks doesn’t solve the rot.
     
    The presence of blacks is not the cause of the rot. It's the symptom.

    Dumping blacks outside the United States is tantamount to a death sentence for most of them; oddly Southerners were not okay with that. Apparently murdering people they are close to upsets them.
     
    Spoken like a true social justice warrior. Like I said, the two of you are peas in a pod.

    Replies: @Samuel Skinner

  212. @Reg Cæsar
    @Samuel Skinner


    Black slaves were good for the elite and net cost for everyone.

     

    Well, there is another point of agreement between you and your mirror image, "Pace Law". He claims the Southern states were political traitors. You admit they were race traitors.

    The only people who want to dig up these issues today are the descendants of those who lost and the descendants of those who missed it entirely. Most normal white folks today would see the Gettysburg reunions of 1913 and 1938 as inspiring. You and Pace can go have it out in your own mud pit.

    Replies: @Samuel Skinner

    You admit they were race traitors.

    No, the planter elite were not race traitors. You can have functional states with an inferior underclass (see India). Slavery helped keep out other groups of whites so in the long run it may have protected the South from ethnic conflict and discord between whites that will probably envelop the rest of the country.

    The only people who want to dig up these issues today are the descendants of those who lost and the descendants of those who missed it entirely.

    Race and immigration are still political issues and for the same exact reason they were in the 19th century.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Samuel Skinner


    No, the planter elite were not race traitors. You can have functional states with an inferior underclass (see India).
     
    India. Now there's a great model!

    Race and immigration are still political issues and for the same exact reason they were in the 19th century.
     
    As in 1808, when immigration from Africa was greatly restricted, to the dismay of the planters. They were the Tyson Foods of their day.

    Replies: @Samuel Skinner

  213. THE MADISON, WISCONSIN CITY COUNCIL IS AN ABOMINATION!

  214. @The Alarmist

    "You let 140 POWs die in your POW camp, Madisonians ...."
     
    Some might argue that they didn't simply let the POWs die, rather they aided and abetted a brutal internment tantamount to a crime against humanity. Madison needs this monument to help expiate the shame of Madisonians atrocity against these poor, albeit misguided, creatures.

    Replies: @BenKenobi, @Olorin, @Delmas

    WHO were “…misguided creatures”?? History has played out in the United States to manifest that it certainly was not the Confederates who were misguided. Spare me your ludicrous Yankee compassion!

  215. @Diversity Heretic
    @PaceLaw

    They did not fight against the United States government, which invaded the South. They fought for the right to secede from a government that no longer served their best interests, rather similarly to the colonists who seceded from the United Kingdom in 1776. The Union victory replaced the voluntary association of states with an empire imposing its will on a defeated people and we live with the consequences of that to this day.

    The Johnny Rebs who lie in that cemetery were better Americans than the real traitors who propose to wipe out the memory of the CSA and its supporters.

    Replies: @PaceLaw, @Reg Cæsar, @Corvinus

    “They did not fight against the United States government, which invaded the South.”

    There was no “invasion”. Fort Sumter was attacked, and the federal government responded accordingly. Why didn’t Southerners just have picked their own damn cotton?

    “They fought for the right to secede from a government that no longer served their best interests, rather similarly to the colonists who seceded from the United Kingdom in 1776.”

    You are conveniently forgetting that the plantation class did not serve the interests of all people in the South.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Unionist

    “The Union victory replaced the voluntary association of states with an empire imposing its will on a defeated people and we live with the consequences of that to this day.”

    Actually, the Civil War saved our nation, and ultimately we are better off for it.

    “The Johnny Rebs who lie in that cemetery were better Americans than the real traitors who propose to wipe out the memory of the CSA and its supporters.”

    All your lies are belong to us.

    • Replies: @Samuel Skinner
    @Corvinus


    There was no “invasion”. Fort Sumter was attacked, and the federal government responded accordingly.
     
    I remember how the war ended with the Confederacy existing and agreeing to recognize the existence of Union forts on its coast.

    Why didn’t Southerners just have picked their own damn cotton?
     
    Northerners never bothered the South again after 1865.

    You are conveniently forgetting that the plantation class did not serve the interests of all people in the South.
     
    Tories existed during the American Revolution.

    Actually, the Civil War saved our nation, and ultimately we are better off for it.
     
    White TFR is below replacement; either the country breaks down/apart or it ends up eliminating its white population. I have no idea how either of those options is better then the South winning.
  216. @istevefan
    @Reg Cæsar


    Their grandpappies had already done that with the Cherokee.
     
    What did the Northerners do to the various tribes they encountered? At least Cherokees still exist today. Some of the tribes in the North no longer exist.

    Both sides were fighting for greater diversity, which means both sides were wrong. Even suicidal. The political arguments about secession and tariffs were also a whole order of magnitude removed from that, though to the smaller side. That each side’s arguments were often seen made by the other at various times ought to demonstrate that.
     
    I don't know why they call it the Civil War. When I think about civil war, I think of two or more sides fighting to control the country's government. It seems to me the South was fighting a war of secession in which they wanted out. They were not fighting to control the US government and the rest of the states. It was the North that wanted to keep the South in the Union.

    The original 13 colonies each ratified the Constitution to form the Union. I don't recall any of them ever being told that once they joined they could never leave. So I don't see why those states could not have left the Union the same way they joined it, namely by having their state legislature decide.

    Now one might make a different argument for those states that came after the original 13. I believe those states not only had to ratify the Constitution, but had to get approval from the existing states in the form of Congressional approval for admission. So one might argue the rest of the Union had some say in their exit.

    Replies: @Corvinus, @Reg Cæsar

    “It was the North that wanted to keep the South in the Union.”

    No, it was Americans, northerners and southerners, who sought to keep the Union intact. You do realize that there were southern Unionists, right?

    • Replies: @istevefan
    @Corvinus


    No, it was Americans, northerners and southerners, who sought to keep the Union intact. You do realize that there were southern Unionists, right?
     
    And you realize there were Northerners who wanted to let the South go? There were 40 million people in the nation. Opinions varied even among family members. The bottom line is that each state that seceded from the USA did so via its state legislature which in theory represented that states' voters.

    Keeping the Union intact is just a euphemism for no one is allowed to leave. I don't recall reading about states never being allowed to leave the Union during the ratification of the Constitution in 1788. If that point had been openly made, it probably would have derailed the ratification process.

    Replies: @Corvinus

  217. @anonymous
    @istevefan

    There are German WW2 graves (with headstones acknowledging their German rank and service) in Kalamazoo County Michigan at Fort Custer (yeah that Custer) National Cemetery. Every year on Volkstrauertag (German memorial day) a service is conducted on Federal property to honor them.

    From the Ft. Custer National Cemetery [email protected]#%book page on November 13, 2016:


    The Ft. Custer Wednesday Honor Guard had the distinct privilege to support Volkstrauertag 2016, held at the Ft. Custer National Cemetery earlier today.

    The Volkstrauertag (German for "people's day of mourning") is a public holiday in Germany two Sundays before the first day of Advent. It commemorates members of the German armed forces and civilians who died in armed conflicts, to include victims of violent oppression. It was first observed in its modern form in 1952.

    An official observation of Volkstrauertag takes place in the German Bundestag. The President of Germany traditionally gives a speech with the Chancellor, the cabinet and the diplomatic corps present. The national anthem and the song "Ich hatt' einen Kameraden" ("I had a comrade") are then played. Most provinces also hold their own ceremonies; veterans usually organize ceremonies that include a procession from the respective Church service to a war memorial, prayer by the pastor, speeches by the mayor and the veterans' chairmen, a military guard of honor, several wreaths are laid, and "Ich hatt' einen Kameraden"; where available, also with the attendance of a Bundeswehr officer as official representative.

    Because of the relation to Advent, the date is the Sunday nearest 16 November, i.e. in the period from 13 November to 19 November.

    This local Volkstrauertag observation is especially important to the local German-American community as they honor the "Forgotten Twenty-Six". From 1943 to 1946, Fort Custer housed several German Prisoner of War camps. Many of the 4,000 prisoners worked on farms and in vineyards in the area. In Section B of Fort Custer National Cemetery, once part of the Post Cemetery of Fort Custer, there are 26 German graves. Sixteen of the men were killed or died as a result of an accident on 31 October 1944 when a truck, returning German prisoners of war from a work detail to their POW camp at Fort Custer, collided with a train at an unguarded railroad crossing at Blissfield, MI. The other ten died of natural causes while prisoners of war.
     

    Doesn’t Bobby Mueller need to question Senators Stabenow and Peters about this under oath?

    P.S. Didn’t James Madison own slaves and brought them into the Whitehouse to serve him?

    Replies: @res, @istevefan

    I never knew about those German graves in Michigan. I don’t know what surprises me more, that there are such graves in Michigan, or that they are still allowed to exist in Michigan in 2018.

  218. istevefan says:
    @Corvinus
    @istevefan

    "It was the North that wanted to keep the South in the Union."

    No, it was Americans, northerners and southerners, who sought to keep the Union intact. You do realize that there were southern Unionists, right?

    Replies: @istevefan

    No, it was Americans, northerners and southerners, who sought to keep the Union intact. You do realize that there were southern Unionists, right?

    And you realize there were Northerners who wanted to let the South go? There were 40 million people in the nation. Opinions varied even among family members. The bottom line is that each state that seceded from the USA did so via its state legislature which in theory represented that states’ voters.

    Keeping the Union intact is just a euphemism for no one is allowed to leave. I don’t recall reading about states never being allowed to leave the Union during the ratification of the Constitution in 1788. If that point had been openly made, it probably would have derailed the ratification process.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @istevefan

    "And you realize there were Northerners who wanted to let the South go?"

    Absolutely. But recall your original statement, which is observably false--“It was the North that wanted to keep the South in the Union".

    "There were 40 million people in the nation. Opinions varied even among family members."

    So why didn't say this from the jump and call it a day?

    "The bottom line is that each state that seceded from the USA did so via its state legislature which in theory represented that states’ voters."

    Indeed, but that did not mean that the matter was settled.

    "Keeping the Union intact is just a euphemism for no one is allowed to leave."

    You can leave if you want to. But secession has been already been decided by our nation. But, to show you that I am a good sport, let us put secession to a national vote in 2020, winner take all. What do you say? How confident are you that 51% of the voting public will agree to break up our nation?

    "I don’t recall reading about states never being allowed to leave the Union during the ratification of the Constitution in 1788."

    There was extensive debate on this matter at that time. It was discussed in the Federalist Papers as a primary threat to the welfare of the individual states which made up the Union.

    Replies: @istevefan

  219. @istevefan
    @Corvinus


    No, it was Americans, northerners and southerners, who sought to keep the Union intact. You do realize that there were southern Unionists, right?
     
    And you realize there were Northerners who wanted to let the South go? There were 40 million people in the nation. Opinions varied even among family members. The bottom line is that each state that seceded from the USA did so via its state legislature which in theory represented that states' voters.

    Keeping the Union intact is just a euphemism for no one is allowed to leave. I don't recall reading about states never being allowed to leave the Union during the ratification of the Constitution in 1788. If that point had been openly made, it probably would have derailed the ratification process.

    Replies: @Corvinus

    “And you realize there were Northerners who wanted to let the South go?”

    Absolutely. But recall your original statement, which is observably false–“It was the North that wanted to keep the South in the Union”.

    “There were 40 million people in the nation. Opinions varied even among family members.”

    So why didn’t say this from the jump and call it a day?

    “The bottom line is that each state that seceded from the USA did so via its state legislature which in theory represented that states’ voters.”

    Indeed, but that did not mean that the matter was settled.

    “Keeping the Union intact is just a euphemism for no one is allowed to leave.”

    You can leave if you want to. But secession has been already been decided by our nation. But, to show you that I am a good sport, let us put secession to a national vote in 2020, winner take all. What do you say? How confident are you that 51% of the voting public will agree to break up our nation?

    “I don’t recall reading about states never being allowed to leave the Union during the ratification of the Constitution in 1788.”

    There was extensive debate on this matter at that time. It was discussed in the Federalist Papers as a primary threat to the welfare of the individual states which made up the Union.

    • Replies: @istevefan
    @Corvinus


    But secession has been already been decided by our nation.

     

    We were discussing the Civil War. Secession was not a decided issue at that time.

    How confident are you that 51% of the voting public will agree to break up our nation?
     
    First, all that matters is what the voters of a particular state decide. If CA voters for example want to secede, I will not stand in their way.

    Second, secession or some form of fracture is coming to what we know as the USA. It might not happen in my lifetime, but so long as the radical diversification of this nation continues, it is the future. The place will become too populous and too diverse to hold together as one entity. Any precedent the Civil War established towards secession won't matter at that time.

    Replies: @Corvinus, @Trevor H.

  220. @Samuel Skinner
    @Reg Cæsar


    It was in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, as Shay’s was in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. The interference came from outside those jurisdictions.
     
    Whisky Rebellion was an uprising against a federal law so had a federal reaction.

    I am not a “Yankee”. I live far outside New England. Many of my paternal ancestors were, though, and sometimes I have pie for breakfast. And nowhere did I say or imply anything about a “more moral person”, a nonsensical, even un-Christian concept. You’re just projecting.
     

    Sovereignty for me, not for thee.
     
    Yeah, declaring your opponents are hypocrites acting purely in their own interests (unlike you who is selfless and nearer to the Godhood) is completely unique and has never been done by Yankees ever before.

    Are Negroes “Persons”, or livestock? If the free (i.e., white) states declared them to be non-persons, then there would be no issue. The planters would have to take it to the Supreme Court.
     
    The answer depends on the category and individual in question. Slaves may count as livestock but free blacks do not.

    And a Negro-majority jurisdiction sounds nothing like a republic.
     
    Republics are non-monarchical states.

    Whichever is most convenient at the moment.
     
    So weird a legal category results in individuals being treated differently in different legal situation.

    Total self assurance and total ignorance. Nothing less then I'd expect from your kind.

    At least you have one point of agreement– that it is good to have African Negroes in America.
     
    -complains about projection
    -projects

    Black slaves were good for the elite and net cost for everyone.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Reg Cæsar

    Republics are non-monarchical states.

    So Zambia is a republic. Venezuela is a republic. Both halves of Korea are republics.

    Boy, your standards are set very low.

    • Replies: @Samuel Skinner
    @Reg Cæsar

    Yes, I went back in time and rewrote the dictionary. It is what I do.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

  221. @Samuel Skinner
    @Reg Cæsar


    You admit they were race traitors.
     
    No, the planter elite were not race traitors. You can have functional states with an inferior underclass (see India). Slavery helped keep out other groups of whites so in the long run it may have protected the South from ethnic conflict and discord between whites that will probably envelop the rest of the country.

    The only people who want to dig up these issues today are the descendants of those who lost and the descendants of those who missed it entirely.
     
    Race and immigration are still political issues and for the same exact reason they were in the 19th century.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    No, the planter elite were not race traitors. You can have functional states with an inferior underclass (see India).

    India. Now there’s a great model!

    Race and immigration are still political issues and for the same exact reason they were in the 19th century.

    As in 1808, when immigration from Africa was greatly restricted, to the dismay of the planters. They were the Tyson Foods of their day.

    • Replies: @Samuel Skinner
    @Reg Cæsar


    India. Now there’s a great model!
     
    India and her people will be here in a century. The United States will not. In the end that is all that really matters.

    As in 1808, when immigration from Africa was greatly restricted, to the dismay of the planters. They were the Tyson Foods of their day.
     
    The act was proposed by Thomas Jefferson a Southern planter who owned slaves. In fact you have the situation reversed- banning the slave trade raised the price of slaves which benefited the people who already owned slaves the most and hurt those trying to get slaves to boost themselves up. It is the elite working to slam the door behind them, not something that harms the elite.
  222. @Samuel Skinner
    @Reg Cæsar


    You missed the kicker: he was right to do so.
     
    Not really- the problem with blacks is stupidity and violence, they are not a threat to the existence of the white population except if their proportion is over 90%. By contrast other groups of white people are a threat to the Anglo-Saxon population. Lincoln should have stopped importing foreigners into the United States.

    Kicking out the blacks doesn't solve the rot.

    If the planters didn’t like it, they could have paid white men enough to do the job. Or follow their charges to Africa.
     
    Southerners would have been fine with that (see William Walker). Dumping blacks outside the United States is tantamount to a death sentence for most of them; oddly Southerners were not okay with that. Apparently murdering people they are close to upsets them.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Not really- the problem with blacks is stupidity and violence, they are not a threat to the existence of the white population except if their proportion is over 90%.

    So what’s the point of bringing millions of stupid and violent individuals into your territory?

    Kicking out the blacks doesn’t solve the rot.

    The presence of blacks is not the cause of the rot. It’s the symptom.

    Dumping blacks outside the United States is tantamount to a death sentence for most of them; oddly Southerners were not okay with that. Apparently murdering people they are close to upsets them.

    Spoken like a true social justice warrior. Like I said, the two of you are peas in a pod.

    • Replies: @Samuel Skinner
    @Reg Cæsar


    So what’s the point of bringing millions of stupid and violent individuals into your territory?
     
    It beats bringing in millions of competent and skilled individuals who will work together to kill you.

    The presence of blacks is not the cause of the rot. It’s the symptom.
     
    The South managed to survive fine with blacks. It is non-optimal, but it isn't a symptom of rot.

    Spoken like a true social justice warrior. Like I said, the two of you are peas in a pod.
     
    Pointing out Southerners don't approve of mass murder is evidence of SJWism? What?

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

  223. istevefan says:
    @Corvinus
    @istevefan

    "And you realize there were Northerners who wanted to let the South go?"

    Absolutely. But recall your original statement, which is observably false--“It was the North that wanted to keep the South in the Union".

    "There were 40 million people in the nation. Opinions varied even among family members."

    So why didn't say this from the jump and call it a day?

    "The bottom line is that each state that seceded from the USA did so via its state legislature which in theory represented that states’ voters."

    Indeed, but that did not mean that the matter was settled.

    "Keeping the Union intact is just a euphemism for no one is allowed to leave."

    You can leave if you want to. But secession has been already been decided by our nation. But, to show you that I am a good sport, let us put secession to a national vote in 2020, winner take all. What do you say? How confident are you that 51% of the voting public will agree to break up our nation?

    "I don’t recall reading about states never being allowed to leave the Union during the ratification of the Constitution in 1788."

    There was extensive debate on this matter at that time. It was discussed in the Federalist Papers as a primary threat to the welfare of the individual states which made up the Union.

    Replies: @istevefan

    But secession has been already been decided by our nation.

    We were discussing the Civil War. Secession was not a decided issue at that time.

    How confident are you that 51% of the voting public will agree to break up our nation?

    First, all that matters is what the voters of a particular state decide. If CA voters for example want to secede, I will not stand in their way.

    Second, secession or some form of fracture is coming to what we know as the USA. It might not happen in my lifetime, but so long as the radical diversification of this nation continues, it is the future. The place will become too populous and too diverse to hold together as one entity. Any precedent the Civil War established towards secession won’t matter at that time.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @istevefan

    "We were discussing the Civil War. Secession was not a decided issue at that time."

    The victory by Americans has put to rest the legitimacy of secession. That is why I said "secession has been already been decided by our nation".

    "First, all that matters is what the voters of a particular state collectively decide. If CA voters for example want to secede, I will not stand in their way."

    No, what matters is what the voters of our nation decide. Again, how confident are you that 51% of the voting public will agree to break up our nation?

    "Second, secession or some form of fracture is coming to what we know as the USA."

    Perhaps. Then again, maybe not.

    "The place will become too populous and too diverse to hold together as one entity."

    Exactly what nativists said when the Irish and the Germans in the 1850's, and the Polish, the Slavs, and the Italians in the 1890's, arrived to our shores. It did not matter that these groups were European, it mattered that they were fundamentally different than the "original stock" of our nation.

    They must go back.

    Replies: @Samuel Skinner

    , @Trevor H.
    @istevefan

    Secession is simply another word for self-rule.

  224. @J.Ross
    Why am I getting the impression that PaceLaw is really young and has not been in a war?

    Replies: @William Badwhite, @Uncle Remus

    Either a child of recent immigrants, or of moronic barbarians for whom history is a tabula rasa. It
    is interesting that he can’t be taught, despite the efforts of other commentators. And he displays his
    ignorance and vacuity with such pride!

  225. @istevefan
    @Corvinus


    But secession has been already been decided by our nation.

     

    We were discussing the Civil War. Secession was not a decided issue at that time.

    How confident are you that 51% of the voting public will agree to break up our nation?
     
    First, all that matters is what the voters of a particular state decide. If CA voters for example want to secede, I will not stand in their way.

    Second, secession or some form of fracture is coming to what we know as the USA. It might not happen in my lifetime, but so long as the radical diversification of this nation continues, it is the future. The place will become too populous and too diverse to hold together as one entity. Any precedent the Civil War established towards secession won't matter at that time.

    Replies: @Corvinus, @Trevor H.

    “We were discussing the Civil War. Secession was not a decided issue at that time.”

    The victory by Americans has put to rest the legitimacy of secession. That is why I said “secession has been already been decided by our nation”.

    “First, all that matters is what the voters of a particular state collectively decide. If CA voters for example want to secede, I will not stand in their way.”

    No, what matters is what the voters of our nation decide. Again, how confident are you that 51% of the voting public will agree to break up our nation?

    “Second, secession or some form of fracture is coming to what we know as the USA.”

    Perhaps. Then again, maybe not.

    “The place will become too populous and too diverse to hold together as one entity.”

    Exactly what nativists said when the Irish and the Germans in the 1850’s, and the Polish, the Slavs, and the Italians in the 1890’s, arrived to our shores. It did not matter that these groups were European, it mattered that they were fundamentally different than the “original stock” of our nation.

    They must go back.

    • Replies: @Samuel Skinner
    @Corvinus


    The victory by Americans has put to rest the legitimacy of secession. That is why I said “secession has been already been decided by our nation”.
     
    Then secession will become legitimate in the future when someone pulls it off. Which means the word legitimacy is utterly meaningless here.

    No, what matters is what the voters of our nation decide. Again, how confident are you that 51% of the voting public will agree to break up our nation?
     
    The voters don't matter. Czechoslovakia broke up even with the majority opposed, ditto with the USSR.

    Perhaps. Then again, maybe not.
     
    Dissolution or ethnic cleansing. One of the two.

    They must go back.
     
    English, Scotch-Irish and American are 16% of the total US population.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_United_States#White_and_European_Americans

    If you extend to Hagnals
    (German, French, Dutch, Scottish)
    you get 20.4% more for a total of 36.4% of the population.

    That is for 2010-2015; the proportion is dropping each year. It is also older then the new arrivals; it isn't clear how many bodies can actually be rallied to defend the patre.

    Replies: @Corvinus

  226. @istevefan
    @Corvinus


    But secession has been already been decided by our nation.

     

    We were discussing the Civil War. Secession was not a decided issue at that time.

    How confident are you that 51% of the voting public will agree to break up our nation?
     
    First, all that matters is what the voters of a particular state decide. If CA voters for example want to secede, I will not stand in their way.

    Second, secession or some form of fracture is coming to what we know as the USA. It might not happen in my lifetime, but so long as the radical diversification of this nation continues, it is the future. The place will become too populous and too diverse to hold together as one entity. Any precedent the Civil War established towards secession won't matter at that time.

    Replies: @Corvinus, @Trevor H.

    Secession is simply another word for self-rule.

  227. @istevefan
    @Reg Cæsar


    Their grandpappies had already done that with the Cherokee.
     
    What did the Northerners do to the various tribes they encountered? At least Cherokees still exist today. Some of the tribes in the North no longer exist.

    Both sides were fighting for greater diversity, which means both sides were wrong. Even suicidal. The political arguments about secession and tariffs were also a whole order of magnitude removed from that, though to the smaller side. That each side’s arguments were often seen made by the other at various times ought to demonstrate that.
     
    I don't know why they call it the Civil War. When I think about civil war, I think of two or more sides fighting to control the country's government. It seems to me the South was fighting a war of secession in which they wanted out. They were not fighting to control the US government and the rest of the states. It was the North that wanted to keep the South in the Union.

    The original 13 colonies each ratified the Constitution to form the Union. I don't recall any of them ever being told that once they joined they could never leave. So I don't see why those states could not have left the Union the same way they joined it, namely by having their state legislature decide.

    Now one might make a different argument for those states that came after the original 13. I believe those states not only had to ratify the Constitution, but had to get approval from the existing states in the form of Congressional approval for admission. So one might argue the rest of the Union had some say in their exit.

    Replies: @Corvinus, @Reg Cæsar

    What did the Northerners do to the various tribes they encountered? At least Cherokees still exist today. Some of the tribes in the North no longer exist.

    WTF are “Northerners”?

    Anyway, the New England tribes were nearly obliterated by disease before the Mayflower landed. The surviving tribes had mixed relations with the English. The allies in the Pequot War were the enemy in King Phillip’s, and vice versa. There are plenty of Indians in New York today. And in the border states. (Canadian border, that is.) The Oneidas are in Wisconsin now, the Wyandots in Oklahoma. And casinos are everywhere.

    I don’t know why they call it the Civil War.

    It was very much a civil war within the states. The white counties of Virginia left the Commonwealth. The white Appalachian counties in other states would have liked to follow suit, as far down as Alabama. If Lincoln were shrewd, he’d have grabbed those white counties, and left the diverse ones to go their own multicultural way.

  228. I know Dreher has a bit of an iffy reputation here, but this was great: https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/prelude-to-a-new-civil-war-madison-wisconsin/

    Quotes Solzhenitsyn, via Matthew Schmitz:

    There is no longer equality before God of the fallen, not in Madison, Wisconsin. The city council spits on these dead men, who passed away not in combat, but in Union custody.

  229. @Reg Cæsar
    @Samuel Skinner


    Republics are non-monarchical states.
     
    So Zambia is a republic. Venezuela is a republic. Both halves of Korea are republics.

    Boy, your standards are set very low.

    Replies: @Samuel Skinner

    Yes, I went back in time and rewrote the dictionary. It is what I do.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Samuel Skinner


    Yes, I went back in time and rewrote the dictionary. It is what I do.
     
    All states, all powers, that have held and hold rule over men have been and are either republics or principalities. – Machiavelli

    There are three species of government; republican, monarchical, and despotic. In order to discover their nature, it is sufficient to recollect the common notion, which supposes three definitions, or rather three facts: “That a republican government is that in which the body or only a part of the people is possessed of the supreme power: monarchy, that in which a single person governs by fixed and established laws: a despotic government, that in which a single person directs every thing by his own will and caprice." – Montesquieu

    I think the Founders would have gone with Montesquieu's definition. Certainly Jefferson, who noted other nations' oscillation between despotism and mob rule.

    But if you want to go with Machiavelli, fine, call Kim Jong-Un a republican.

    Replies: @Samuel Skinner

  230. @Reg Cæsar
    @Samuel Skinner


    No, the planter elite were not race traitors. You can have functional states with an inferior underclass (see India).
     
    India. Now there's a great model!

    Race and immigration are still political issues and for the same exact reason they were in the 19th century.
     
    As in 1808, when immigration from Africa was greatly restricted, to the dismay of the planters. They were the Tyson Foods of their day.

    Replies: @Samuel Skinner

    India. Now there’s a great model!

    India and her people will be here in a century. The United States will not. In the end that is all that really matters.

    As in 1808, when immigration from Africa was greatly restricted, to the dismay of the planters. They were the Tyson Foods of their day.

    The act was proposed by Thomas Jefferson a Southern planter who owned slaves. In fact you have the situation reversed- banning the slave trade raised the price of slaves which benefited the people who already owned slaves the most and hurt those trying to get slaves to boost themselves up. It is the elite working to slam the door behind them, not something that harms the elite.

  231. @Reg Cæsar
    @Samuel Skinner


    Not really- the problem with blacks is stupidity and violence, they are not a threat to the existence of the white population except if their proportion is over 90%.
     
    So what's the point of bringing millions of stupid and violent individuals into your territory?

    Kicking out the blacks doesn’t solve the rot.
     
    The presence of blacks is not the cause of the rot. It's the symptom.

    Dumping blacks outside the United States is tantamount to a death sentence for most of them; oddly Southerners were not okay with that. Apparently murdering people they are close to upsets them.
     
    Spoken like a true social justice warrior. Like I said, the two of you are peas in a pod.

    Replies: @Samuel Skinner

    So what’s the point of bringing millions of stupid and violent individuals into your territory?

    It beats bringing in millions of competent and skilled individuals who will work together to kill you.

    The presence of blacks is not the cause of the rot. It’s the symptom.

    The South managed to survive fine with blacks. It is non-optimal, but it isn’t a symptom of rot.

    Spoken like a true social justice warrior. Like I said, the two of you are peas in a pod.

    Pointing out Southerners don’t approve of mass murder is evidence of SJWism? What?

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Samuel Skinner


    Pointing out Southerners don’t approve of mass murder is evidence of SJWism? What?
     
    "Freedom is murder" tops Orwell.

    There are ten million people in Haiti today. Blacks seem to survive well enough by themselves.

    Replies: @Samuel Skinner

  232. @Corvinus
    @istevefan

    "We were discussing the Civil War. Secession was not a decided issue at that time."

    The victory by Americans has put to rest the legitimacy of secession. That is why I said "secession has been already been decided by our nation".

    "First, all that matters is what the voters of a particular state collectively decide. If CA voters for example want to secede, I will not stand in their way."

    No, what matters is what the voters of our nation decide. Again, how confident are you that 51% of the voting public will agree to break up our nation?

    "Second, secession or some form of fracture is coming to what we know as the USA."

    Perhaps. Then again, maybe not.

    "The place will become too populous and too diverse to hold together as one entity."

    Exactly what nativists said when the Irish and the Germans in the 1850's, and the Polish, the Slavs, and the Italians in the 1890's, arrived to our shores. It did not matter that these groups were European, it mattered that they were fundamentally different than the "original stock" of our nation.

    They must go back.

    Replies: @Samuel Skinner

    The victory by Americans has put to rest the legitimacy of secession. That is why I said “secession has been already been decided by our nation”.

    Then secession will become legitimate in the future when someone pulls it off. Which means the word legitimacy is utterly meaningless here.

    No, what matters is what the voters of our nation decide. Again, how confident are you that 51% of the voting public will agree to break up our nation?

    The voters don’t matter. Czechoslovakia broke up even with the majority opposed, ditto with the USSR.

    Perhaps. Then again, maybe not.

    Dissolution or ethnic cleansing. One of the two.

    They must go back.

    English, Scotch-Irish and American are 16% of the total US population.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_United_States#White_and_European_Americans

    If you extend to Hagnals
    (German, French, Dutch, Scottish)
    you get 20.4% more for a total of 36.4% of the population.

    That is for 2010-2015; the proportion is dropping each year. It is also older then the new arrivals; it isn’t clear how many bodies can actually be rallied to defend the patre.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @Samuel Skinner

    "Then secession will become legitimate in the future when someone pulls it off. Which means the word legitimacy is utterly meaningless here."

    Not quite. It remains illegitimate in the eyes of the Supreme Court and Congress. Unless, of course, by a miracle, there is a groundswell of support for a national vote on the matter. So do you feel confident 51% of our voting population will say "Yes"?

    "The voters don’t matter."

    The voters matter here in the United States.

    "Czechoslovakia broke up even with the majority opposed, ditto with the USSR."

    Who/Whom?

    "Dissolution or ethnic cleansing. One of the two."

    Actually, dissolution, ethnic cleansing, or unity. The former two are highly unlikely scenarios for America.

    "Northerners never bothered the South again after 1865."

    Well, there was Reconstruction from 1865-1877, and then the Civil Rights movement in the 1950's and 1960's. So to say that the North didn't "bother" the South again is other than true.

    "White TFR is below replacement; either the country breaks down/apart or it ends up eliminating its white population."

    The American white population is not being, or going to be, "eliminated", Chicken Little.

    Replies: @Samuel Skinner, @Reg Cæsar

  233. @Corvinus
    @Diversity Heretic

    "They did not fight against the United States government, which invaded the South."

    There was no "invasion". Fort Sumter was attacked, and the federal government responded accordingly. Why didn't Southerners just have picked their own damn cotton?

    "They fought for the right to secede from a government that no longer served their best interests, rather similarly to the colonists who seceded from the United Kingdom in 1776."

    You are conveniently forgetting that the plantation class did not serve the interests of all people in the South.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Unionist

    "The Union victory replaced the voluntary association of states with an empire imposing its will on a defeated people and we live with the consequences of that to this day."

    Actually, the Civil War saved our nation, and ultimately we are better off for it.

    "The Johnny Rebs who lie in that cemetery were better Americans than the real traitors who propose to wipe out the memory of the CSA and its supporters."

    All your lies are belong to us.

    Replies: @Samuel Skinner

    There was no “invasion”. Fort Sumter was attacked, and the federal government responded accordingly.

    I remember how the war ended with the Confederacy existing and agreeing to recognize the existence of Union forts on its coast.

    Why didn’t Southerners just have picked their own damn cotton?

    Northerners never bothered the South again after 1865.

    You are conveniently forgetting that the plantation class did not serve the interests of all people in the South.

    Tories existed during the American Revolution.

    Actually, the Civil War saved our nation, and ultimately we are better off for it.

    White TFR is below replacement; either the country breaks down/apart or it ends up eliminating its white population. I have no idea how either of those options is better then the South winning.

  234. @Rosamond Vincy
    @Romanian

    Ironic, because he later disavowed the Klan and worked with Black Southern organizations to encourage Black advancement.

    Replies: @Romanian

    Well, we all know that we call racism today does not necessarily mean hostility. It might even denote a paternalistic interest in the advancement of the “lower orders”.

    I do not know enough about Bedford to say, except that he was an effective fighter, and one who won notoriety, which is the cause of his current woes.

  235. @Samuel Skinner
    @Corvinus


    The victory by Americans has put to rest the legitimacy of secession. That is why I said “secession has been already been decided by our nation”.
     
    Then secession will become legitimate in the future when someone pulls it off. Which means the word legitimacy is utterly meaningless here.

    No, what matters is what the voters of our nation decide. Again, how confident are you that 51% of the voting public will agree to break up our nation?
     
    The voters don't matter. Czechoslovakia broke up even with the majority opposed, ditto with the USSR.

    Perhaps. Then again, maybe not.
     
    Dissolution or ethnic cleansing. One of the two.

    They must go back.
     
    English, Scotch-Irish and American are 16% of the total US population.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_United_States#White_and_European_Americans

    If you extend to Hagnals
    (German, French, Dutch, Scottish)
    you get 20.4% more for a total of 36.4% of the population.

    That is for 2010-2015; the proportion is dropping each year. It is also older then the new arrivals; it isn't clear how many bodies can actually be rallied to defend the patre.

    Replies: @Corvinus

    “Then secession will become legitimate in the future when someone pulls it off. Which means the word legitimacy is utterly meaningless here.”

    Not quite. It remains illegitimate in the eyes of the Supreme Court and Congress. Unless, of course, by a miracle, there is a groundswell of support for a national vote on the matter. So do you feel confident 51% of our voting population will say “Yes”?

    “The voters don’t matter.”

    The voters matter here in the United States.

    “Czechoslovakia broke up even with the majority opposed, ditto with the USSR.”

    Who/Whom?

    “Dissolution or ethnic cleansing. One of the two.”

    Actually, dissolution, ethnic cleansing, or unity. The former two are highly unlikely scenarios for America.

    “Northerners never bothered the South again after 1865.”

    Well, there was Reconstruction from 1865-1877, and then the Civil Rights movement in the 1950’s and 1960’s. So to say that the North didn’t “bother” the South again is other than true.

    “White TFR is below replacement; either the country breaks down/apart or it ends up eliminating its white population.”

    The American white population is not being, or going to be, “eliminated”, Chicken Little.

    • Replies: @Samuel Skinner
    @Corvinus


    Not quite. It remains illegitimate in the eyes of the Supreme Court and Congress. Unless, of course, by a miracle, there is a groundswell of support for a national vote on the matter. So do you feel confident 51% of our voting population will say “Yes”?
     
    Current Supreme Court and Congress. Which can be changed. Remember that every Soviet Republic but the Baltics had a majority vote against the end of the USSR.

    The voters matter here in the United States.
     
    The fact the quality of American propaganda is better doesn't mean voters have more of a say then anywhere else.

    Actually, dissolution, ethnic cleansing, or unity. The former two are highly unlikely scenarios for America.
     
    Yes, America is unlike every single other empire in human history. Human nature simply doesn't apply because of the magic of our soil and our words.

    Well, there was Reconstruction from 1865-1877, and then the Civil Rights movement in the 1950′s and 1960′s. So to say that the North didn’t “bother” the South again is other than true.
     
    Except for women's suffrage, inter-racial marriage, homosexuality...

    The American white population is not being, or going to be, “eliminated”, Chicken Little.
     
    White America has been below replacement since the 1960s. If you have any reason to believe the trend will reverse, put up.

    Replies: @Corvinus

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Corvinus


    The American white population is not being, or going to be, “eliminated”, Chicken Little.
     
    Unlike, say, the Mexican black population?

    https://www.upi.com/Top_News/2002/05/08/Analysis-Mexicos-missing-blacks-Part-3/60621020910279/

    The problem is not that our children will be eliminated, but that they will be ruled over by despots. Much of America's "universal values" are just white people's prejudices, and the sooner we admit it, the clearer the discussion will be.

    Replies: @Corvinus

  236. @Corvinus
    @Samuel Skinner

    "Then secession will become legitimate in the future when someone pulls it off. Which means the word legitimacy is utterly meaningless here."

    Not quite. It remains illegitimate in the eyes of the Supreme Court and Congress. Unless, of course, by a miracle, there is a groundswell of support for a national vote on the matter. So do you feel confident 51% of our voting population will say "Yes"?

    "The voters don’t matter."

    The voters matter here in the United States.

    "Czechoslovakia broke up even with the majority opposed, ditto with the USSR."

    Who/Whom?

    "Dissolution or ethnic cleansing. One of the two."

    Actually, dissolution, ethnic cleansing, or unity. The former two are highly unlikely scenarios for America.

    "Northerners never bothered the South again after 1865."

    Well, there was Reconstruction from 1865-1877, and then the Civil Rights movement in the 1950's and 1960's. So to say that the North didn't "bother" the South again is other than true.

    "White TFR is below replacement; either the country breaks down/apart or it ends up eliminating its white population."

    The American white population is not being, or going to be, "eliminated", Chicken Little.

    Replies: @Samuel Skinner, @Reg Cæsar

    Not quite. It remains illegitimate in the eyes of the Supreme Court and Congress. Unless, of course, by a miracle, there is a groundswell of support for a national vote on the matter. So do you feel confident 51% of our voting population will say “Yes”?

    Current Supreme Court and Congress. Which can be changed. Remember that every Soviet Republic but the Baltics had a majority vote against the end of the USSR.

    The voters matter here in the United States.

    The fact the quality of American propaganda is better doesn’t mean voters have more of a say then anywhere else.

    Actually, dissolution, ethnic cleansing, or unity. The former two are highly unlikely scenarios for America.

    Yes, America is unlike every single other empire in human history. Human nature simply doesn’t apply because of the magic of our soil and our words.

    Well, there was Reconstruction from 1865-1877, and then the Civil Rights movement in the 1950′s and 1960′s. So to say that the North didn’t “bother” the South again is other than true.

    Except for women’s suffrage, inter-racial marriage, homosexuality…

    The American white population is not being, or going to be, “eliminated”, Chicken Little.

    White America has been below replacement since the 1960s. If you have any reason to believe the trend will reverse, put up.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @Samuel Skinner

    "Current Supreme Court and Congress. Which can be changed."

    Precedent regarding secession has already been set. Again, should there be a miracle and this issue is decided by our citizens, are you confident 51% of our voting population will say “Yes”? Why are you avoiding responding to this simple question?

    "Yes, America is unlike every single other empire in human history. Human nature simply doesn’t apply because of the magic of our soil and our words."

    Wait, how can America be an empire if our government is controlled by the Jews?

    "The fact the quality of American propaganda is better doesn’t mean voters have more of a say then anywhere else."

    Wait, are you suggesting that white Americans are being duped? I thought they have such high IQ's and high time preferences that they would be privy to such manipulation. Praytell, what makes you immune?

    "Except for women’s suffrage, inter-racial marriage, homosexuality…"

    Well, the right for women to vote is here to stay, and inter-racial marriage is a personal decision, rooted in freedom of association.

    "White America has been below replacement since the 1960s. If you have any reason to believe the trend will reverse, put up."

    White Americans usually do not look at such matters from this lens. Ought they? Why?

    Replies: @Samuel Skinner

  237. @Samuel Skinner
    @Reg Cæsar


    So what’s the point of bringing millions of stupid and violent individuals into your territory?
     
    It beats bringing in millions of competent and skilled individuals who will work together to kill you.

    The presence of blacks is not the cause of the rot. It’s the symptom.
     
    The South managed to survive fine with blacks. It is non-optimal, but it isn't a symptom of rot.

    Spoken like a true social justice warrior. Like I said, the two of you are peas in a pod.
     
    Pointing out Southerners don't approve of mass murder is evidence of SJWism? What?

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Pointing out Southerners don’t approve of mass murder is evidence of SJWism? What?

    “Freedom is murder” tops Orwell.

    There are ten million people in Haiti today. Blacks seem to survive well enough by themselves.

    • Replies: @Samuel Skinner
    @Reg Cæsar

    I'm not sure if you are serious. The US attempted to found a black colony of freed slaves in Haiti. They had to rescue them because they were dying. That was 500 people. If you want to see the mess with hundreds of thousands...

    Christ, Liberia was the smartest and most motivated blacks and they died like flies during the early years.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

  238. @Samuel Skinner
    @Reg Cæsar

    Yes, I went back in time and rewrote the dictionary. It is what I do.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Yes, I went back in time and rewrote the dictionary. It is what I do.

    All states, all powers, that have held and hold rule over men have been and are either republics or principalities. – Machiavelli

    There are three species of government; republican, monarchical, and despotic. In order to discover their nature, it is sufficient to recollect the common notion, which supposes three definitions, or rather three facts: “That a republican government is that in which the body or only a part of the people is possessed of the supreme power: monarchy, that in which a single person governs by fixed and established laws: a despotic government, that in which a single person directs every thing by his own will and caprice.” – Montesquieu

    I think the Founders would have gone with Montesquieu’s definition. Certainly Jefferson, who noted other nations’ oscillation between despotism and mob rule.

    But if you want to go with Machiavelli, fine, call Kim Jong-Un a republican.

    • Replies: @Samuel Skinner
    @Reg Cæsar


    I think the Founders would have gone with Montesquieu’s definition.
     
    Montesquieu is an intellectual; he is lying to serve a (rather obvious) political ends; namely convincing the King of France to give up power to those who establish laws (which happens to be people like Montesquieu).

    It is also not clear why you think the Founder's would have followed this definition. They were politicians; they would be well aware that no government follows fixed and established laws.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

  239. @Corvinus
    @Samuel Skinner

    "Then secession will become legitimate in the future when someone pulls it off. Which means the word legitimacy is utterly meaningless here."

    Not quite. It remains illegitimate in the eyes of the Supreme Court and Congress. Unless, of course, by a miracle, there is a groundswell of support for a national vote on the matter. So do you feel confident 51% of our voting population will say "Yes"?

    "The voters don’t matter."

    The voters matter here in the United States.

    "Czechoslovakia broke up even with the majority opposed, ditto with the USSR."

    Who/Whom?

    "Dissolution or ethnic cleansing. One of the two."

    Actually, dissolution, ethnic cleansing, or unity. The former two are highly unlikely scenarios for America.

    "Northerners never bothered the South again after 1865."

    Well, there was Reconstruction from 1865-1877, and then the Civil Rights movement in the 1950's and 1960's. So to say that the North didn't "bother" the South again is other than true.

    "White TFR is below replacement; either the country breaks down/apart or it ends up eliminating its white population."

    The American white population is not being, or going to be, "eliminated", Chicken Little.

    Replies: @Samuel Skinner, @Reg Cæsar

    The American white population is not being, or going to be, “eliminated”, Chicken Little.

    Unlike, say, the Mexican black population?

    https://www.upi.com/Top_News/2002/05/08/Analysis-Mexicos-missing-blacks-Part-3/60621020910279/

    The problem is not that our children will be eliminated, but that they will be ruled over by despots. Much of America’s “universal values” are just white people’s prejudices, and the sooner we admit it, the clearer the discussion will be.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @Reg Cæsar

    "Unlike, say, the Mexican black population?"

    Not an apples to apples comparison, Cochise.

    "The problem is not that our children will be eliminated, but that they will be ruled over by despots."

    Similar to if and when the Alt Right gets their preferred leaders in positions of power, right?

    "Much of America’s “universal values” are just white people’s prejudices."

    Actually, these universal values are indicative of the human condition, not simply white people.

    Replies: @Samuel Skinner

  240. @Reg Cæsar
    @Samuel Skinner


    Pointing out Southerners don’t approve of mass murder is evidence of SJWism? What?
     
    "Freedom is murder" tops Orwell.

    There are ten million people in Haiti today. Blacks seem to survive well enough by themselves.

    Replies: @Samuel Skinner

    I’m not sure if you are serious. The US attempted to found a black colony of freed slaves in Haiti. They had to rescue them because they were dying. That was 500 people. If you want to see the mess with hundreds of thousands…

    Christ, Liberia was the smartest and most motivated blacks and they died like flies during the early years.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Samuel Skinner


    Christ [sic], Liberia was the smartest and most motivated blacks and they died like flies during the early years.

     

    Why is that white folks' problem? Didn't you train them well enough?

    Liberia has more blacks than any US state today. They're doing better than us, demographically.

    Replies: @Samuel Skinner

  241. @Reg Cæsar
    @Samuel Skinner


    Yes, I went back in time and rewrote the dictionary. It is what I do.
     
    All states, all powers, that have held and hold rule over men have been and are either republics or principalities. – Machiavelli

    There are three species of government; republican, monarchical, and despotic. In order to discover their nature, it is sufficient to recollect the common notion, which supposes three definitions, or rather three facts: “That a republican government is that in which the body or only a part of the people is possessed of the supreme power: monarchy, that in which a single person governs by fixed and established laws: a despotic government, that in which a single person directs every thing by his own will and caprice." – Montesquieu

    I think the Founders would have gone with Montesquieu's definition. Certainly Jefferson, who noted other nations' oscillation between despotism and mob rule.

    But if you want to go with Machiavelli, fine, call Kim Jong-Un a republican.

    Replies: @Samuel Skinner

    I think the Founders would have gone with Montesquieu’s definition.

    Montesquieu is an intellectual; he is lying to serve a (rather obvious) political ends; namely convincing the King of France to give up power to those who establish laws (which happens to be people like Montesquieu).

    It is also not clear why you think the Founder’s would have followed this definition. They were politicians; they would be well aware that no government follows fixed and established laws.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Samuel Skinner

    I'm guessing that they would have been aghast at your referring to states run by tinpot penny-ante satraps as "republics".

    Replies: @Samuel Skinner

  242. @Samuel Skinner
    @Corvinus


    Not quite. It remains illegitimate in the eyes of the Supreme Court and Congress. Unless, of course, by a miracle, there is a groundswell of support for a national vote on the matter. So do you feel confident 51% of our voting population will say “Yes”?
     
    Current Supreme Court and Congress. Which can be changed. Remember that every Soviet Republic but the Baltics had a majority vote against the end of the USSR.

    The voters matter here in the United States.
     
    The fact the quality of American propaganda is better doesn't mean voters have more of a say then anywhere else.

    Actually, dissolution, ethnic cleansing, or unity. The former two are highly unlikely scenarios for America.
     
    Yes, America is unlike every single other empire in human history. Human nature simply doesn't apply because of the magic of our soil and our words.

    Well, there was Reconstruction from 1865-1877, and then the Civil Rights movement in the 1950′s and 1960′s. So to say that the North didn’t “bother” the South again is other than true.
     
    Except for women's suffrage, inter-racial marriage, homosexuality...

    The American white population is not being, or going to be, “eliminated”, Chicken Little.
     
    White America has been below replacement since the 1960s. If you have any reason to believe the trend will reverse, put up.

    Replies: @Corvinus

    “Current Supreme Court and Congress. Which can be changed.”

    Precedent regarding secession has already been set. Again, should there be a miracle and this issue is decided by our citizens, are you confident 51% of our voting population will say “Yes”? Why are you avoiding responding to this simple question?

    “Yes, America is unlike every single other empire in human history. Human nature simply doesn’t apply because of the magic of our soil and our words.”

    Wait, how can America be an empire if our government is controlled by the Jews?

    “The fact the quality of American propaganda is better doesn’t mean voters have more of a say then anywhere else.”

    Wait, are you suggesting that white Americans are being duped? I thought they have such high IQ’s and high time preferences that they would be privy to such manipulation. Praytell, what makes you immune?

    “Except for women’s suffrage, inter-racial marriage, homosexuality…”

    Well, the right for women to vote is here to stay, and inter-racial marriage is a personal decision, rooted in freedom of association.

    “White America has been below replacement since the 1960s. If you have any reason to believe the trend will reverse, put up.”

    White Americans usually do not look at such matters from this lens. Ought they? Why?

    • Replies: @Samuel Skinner
    @Corvinus


    Precedent regarding secession has already been set.
     
    And in the future they will say the American Revolution set the precedent.

    Again, should there be a miracle and this issue is decided by our citizens, are you confident 51% of our voting population will say “Yes”? Why are you avoiding responding to this simple question?
     
    Because the successions that happened historically did not have majority votes and happened anyway.

    Wait, how can America be an empire if our government is controlled by the Jews?
     
    Empire is a state composed of multiple nations.

    Wait, are you suggesting that white Americans are being duped? I thought they have such high IQ’s and high time preferences that they would be privy to such manipulation. Praytell, what makes you immune?
     
    The same thing that makes blind people immune to visual pornography. It isn't that I can't fall for lies, but I lack (to a significant degree) that which impels others to believe them.

    Well, the right for women to vote is here to stay,
     
    Democracy is going to perish and with it suffrage.

    and inter-racial marriage is a personal decision, rooted in freedom of association.
     
    Which is why it occurred after prohibitions on segregation which was historically based on freedom of association?

    White Americans usually do not look at such matters from this lens. Ought they? Why?
     
    You may not be interested in war...

    Replies: @Corvinus

  243. @Reg Cæsar
    @Corvinus


    The American white population is not being, or going to be, “eliminated”, Chicken Little.
     
    Unlike, say, the Mexican black population?

    https://www.upi.com/Top_News/2002/05/08/Analysis-Mexicos-missing-blacks-Part-3/60621020910279/

    The problem is not that our children will be eliminated, but that they will be ruled over by despots. Much of America's "universal values" are just white people's prejudices, and the sooner we admit it, the clearer the discussion will be.

    Replies: @Corvinus

    “Unlike, say, the Mexican black population?”

    Not an apples to apples comparison, Cochise.

    “The problem is not that our children will be eliminated, but that they will be ruled over by despots.”

    Similar to if and when the Alt Right gets their preferred leaders in positions of power, right?

    “Much of America’s “universal values” are just white people’s prejudices.”

    Actually, these universal values are indicative of the human condition, not simply white people.

    • Replies: @Samuel Skinner
    @Corvinus


    Similar to if and when the Alt Right gets their preferred leaders in positions of power, right?
     
    The Fatherland Front killed less then a thousand people out of a population of 6.76 million. Pol Pot killed 1 in 3 Cambodians. But yeah, if your criteria is "openly killed people" then yes, they are similar.

    Actually, these universal values are indicative of the human condition, not simply white people.
     
    Duterte ran on a platform of having death squads and won. I think he is good for the country, but there is no denying he doesn't believe in 'the right to a fair trial' nor does a majority of the population.
  244. @Samuel Skinner
    @Reg Cæsar

    I'm not sure if you are serious. The US attempted to found a black colony of freed slaves in Haiti. They had to rescue them because they were dying. That was 500 people. If you want to see the mess with hundreds of thousands...

    Christ, Liberia was the smartest and most motivated blacks and they died like flies during the early years.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Christ [sic], Liberia was the smartest and most motivated blacks and they died like flies during the early years.

    Why is that white folks’ problem? Didn’t you train them well enough?

    Liberia has more blacks than any US state today. They’re doing better than us, demographically.

    • Replies: @Samuel Skinner
    @Reg Cæsar


    Why is that white folks’ problem? Didn’t you train them well enough?
     
    It is a problem because Southerners unlike Yankees have hearts and feel empathy.

    Liberia has more blacks than any US state today. They’re doing better than us, demographically.
     
    Yes all black people are exactly the same. There are only 150,000 descendants of the settlers- the rest are natives.
  245. @Samuel Skinner
    @Reg Cæsar


    I think the Founders would have gone with Montesquieu’s definition.
     
    Montesquieu is an intellectual; he is lying to serve a (rather obvious) political ends; namely convincing the King of France to give up power to those who establish laws (which happens to be people like Montesquieu).

    It is also not clear why you think the Founder's would have followed this definition. They were politicians; they would be well aware that no government follows fixed and established laws.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    I’m guessing that they would have been aghast at your referring to states run by tinpot penny-ante satraps as “republics”.

    • Replies: @Samuel Skinner
    @Reg Cæsar

    Like the most Serene Republic of Venice which was an oligarchy run by nobles? Or The Republic of the United Provinces which was run by a monarch?

  246. Madison could be a first-class city, but chooses to be a second-class one.

    Quite literally:

    https://www.lwm-info.org/587/Classes-of-Cities

  247. @Corvinus
    @Samuel Skinner

    "Current Supreme Court and Congress. Which can be changed."

    Precedent regarding secession has already been set. Again, should there be a miracle and this issue is decided by our citizens, are you confident 51% of our voting population will say “Yes”? Why are you avoiding responding to this simple question?

    "Yes, America is unlike every single other empire in human history. Human nature simply doesn’t apply because of the magic of our soil and our words."

    Wait, how can America be an empire if our government is controlled by the Jews?

    "The fact the quality of American propaganda is better doesn’t mean voters have more of a say then anywhere else."

    Wait, are you suggesting that white Americans are being duped? I thought they have such high IQ's and high time preferences that they would be privy to such manipulation. Praytell, what makes you immune?

    "Except for women’s suffrage, inter-racial marriage, homosexuality…"

    Well, the right for women to vote is here to stay, and inter-racial marriage is a personal decision, rooted in freedom of association.

    "White America has been below replacement since the 1960s. If you have any reason to believe the trend will reverse, put up."

    White Americans usually do not look at such matters from this lens. Ought they? Why?

    Replies: @Samuel Skinner

    Precedent regarding secession has already been set.

    And in the future they will say the American Revolution set the precedent.

    Again, should there be a miracle and this issue is decided by our citizens, are you confident 51% of our voting population will say “Yes”? Why are you avoiding responding to this simple question?

    Because the successions that happened historically did not have majority votes and happened anyway.

    Wait, how can America be an empire if our government is controlled by the Jews?

    Empire is a state composed of multiple nations.

    Wait, are you suggesting that white Americans are being duped? I thought they have such high IQ’s and high time preferences that they would be privy to such manipulation. Praytell, what makes you immune?

    The same thing that makes blind people immune to visual pornography. It isn’t that I can’t fall for lies, but I lack (to a significant degree) that which impels others to believe them.

    Well, the right for women to vote is here to stay,

    Democracy is going to perish and with it suffrage.

    and inter-racial marriage is a personal decision, rooted in freedom of association.

    Which is why it occurred after prohibitions on segregation which was historically based on freedom of association?

    White Americans usually do not look at such matters from this lens. Ought they? Why?

    You may not be interested in war…

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @Samuel Skinner

    And in the future they will say the American Revolution set the precedent.

    Because the successions that happened historically did not have majority votes and happened anyway.

    "Empire is a state composed of multiple nations."

    So America is a vassal of the Jewish Empire, if we are to believe that the Jews control our government.

    "It isn’t that I can’t fall for lies, but I lack (to a significant degree) that which impels others to believe them."

    No, you are falling prey to your own bias' here, and are refusing to acknowledge them.

    "Democracy is going to perish and with it suffrage."

    Probably not.

    "Which is why it occurred after prohibitions on segregation which was historically based on freedom of association?"

    No, segregation was based on power and authority.

    Replies: @Samuel Skinner

  248. @Corvinus
    @Reg Cæsar

    "Unlike, say, the Mexican black population?"

    Not an apples to apples comparison, Cochise.

    "The problem is not that our children will be eliminated, but that they will be ruled over by despots."

    Similar to if and when the Alt Right gets their preferred leaders in positions of power, right?

    "Much of America’s “universal values” are just white people’s prejudices."

    Actually, these universal values are indicative of the human condition, not simply white people.

    Replies: @Samuel Skinner

    Similar to if and when the Alt Right gets their preferred leaders in positions of power, right?

    The Fatherland Front killed less then a thousand people out of a population of 6.76 million. Pol Pot killed 1 in 3 Cambodians. But yeah, if your criteria is “openly killed people” then yes, they are similar.

    Actually, these universal values are indicative of the human condition, not simply white people.

    Duterte ran on a platform of having death squads and won. I think he is good for the country, but there is no denying he doesn’t believe in ‘the right to a fair trial’ nor does a majority of the population.

  249. @Reg Cæsar
    @Samuel Skinner


    Christ [sic], Liberia was the smartest and most motivated blacks and they died like flies during the early years.

     

    Why is that white folks' problem? Didn't you train them well enough?

    Liberia has more blacks than any US state today. They're doing better than us, demographically.

    Replies: @Samuel Skinner

    Why is that white folks’ problem? Didn’t you train them well enough?

    It is a problem because Southerners unlike Yankees have hearts and feel empathy.

    Liberia has more blacks than any US state today. They’re doing better than us, demographically.

    Yes all black people are exactly the same. There are only 150,000 descendants of the settlers- the rest are natives.

  250. @Reg Cæsar
    @Samuel Skinner

    I'm guessing that they would have been aghast at your referring to states run by tinpot penny-ante satraps as "republics".

    Replies: @Samuel Skinner

    Like the most Serene Republic of Venice which was an oligarchy run by nobles? Or The Republic of the United Provinces which was run by a monarch?

  251. @Samuel Skinner
    @Corvinus


    Precedent regarding secession has already been set.
     
    And in the future they will say the American Revolution set the precedent.

    Again, should there be a miracle and this issue is decided by our citizens, are you confident 51% of our voting population will say “Yes”? Why are you avoiding responding to this simple question?
     
    Because the successions that happened historically did not have majority votes and happened anyway.

    Wait, how can America be an empire if our government is controlled by the Jews?
     
    Empire is a state composed of multiple nations.

    Wait, are you suggesting that white Americans are being duped? I thought they have such high IQ’s and high time preferences that they would be privy to such manipulation. Praytell, what makes you immune?
     
    The same thing that makes blind people immune to visual pornography. It isn't that I can't fall for lies, but I lack (to a significant degree) that which impels others to believe them.

    Well, the right for women to vote is here to stay,
     
    Democracy is going to perish and with it suffrage.

    and inter-racial marriage is a personal decision, rooted in freedom of association.
     
    Which is why it occurred after prohibitions on segregation which was historically based on freedom of association?

    White Americans usually do not look at such matters from this lens. Ought they? Why?
     
    You may not be interested in war...

    Replies: @Corvinus

    And in the future they will say the American Revolution set the precedent.

    Because the successions that happened historically did not have majority votes and happened anyway.

    “Empire is a state composed of multiple nations.”

    So America is a vassal of the Jewish Empire, if we are to believe that the Jews control our government.

    “It isn’t that I can’t fall for lies, but I lack (to a significant degree) that which impels others to believe them.”

    No, you are falling prey to your own bias’ here, and are refusing to acknowledge them.

    “Democracy is going to perish and with it suffrage.”

    Probably not.

    “Which is why it occurred after prohibitions on segregation which was historically based on freedom of association?”

    No, segregation was based on power and authority.

    • Replies: @Samuel Skinner
    @Corvinus

    Most of my responses are still in the filter; your guess is as good as mine.


    So America is a vassal of the Jewish Empire, if we are to believe that the Jews control our government.
     
    No. Complaints about Jews are about rootless cosmopolitans. While Israel and its lobby certainly has disproportionate influence, no one believes the Knesset is running Hollywood- if they were, there would be less Holocaust movies and more 6 day war flicks.

    No, you are falling prey to your own bias’ here, and are refusing to acknowledge them.
     
    That is an empty line; it has no content that connects to what I said and could have been generated by machine.

    Probably not.
     
    All the developed democracies except Israel are below replacement and have been for decades. The world's largest 'democracy' (India) is using the 1971 census to apportion votes. Demographics have diverged even further and they keep kicking the reckoning down the road. Eventually something will break.

    No, segregation was based on power and authority.
     
    All social arrangements are based on power and authority in order to enact them. The justification for segregation was based on freedom of association- people had the right to live with people they choose to live with and keep out people they did not with to interact with.

    Replies: @Corvinus

  252. @Corvinus
    @Samuel Skinner

    And in the future they will say the American Revolution set the precedent.

    Because the successions that happened historically did not have majority votes and happened anyway.

    "Empire is a state composed of multiple nations."

    So America is a vassal of the Jewish Empire, if we are to believe that the Jews control our government.

    "It isn’t that I can’t fall for lies, but I lack (to a significant degree) that which impels others to believe them."

    No, you are falling prey to your own bias' here, and are refusing to acknowledge them.

    "Democracy is going to perish and with it suffrage."

    Probably not.

    "Which is why it occurred after prohibitions on segregation which was historically based on freedom of association?"

    No, segregation was based on power and authority.

    Replies: @Samuel Skinner

    Most of my responses are still in the filter; your guess is as good as mine.

    So America is a vassal of the Jewish Empire, if we are to believe that the Jews control our government.

    No. Complaints about Jews are about rootless cosmopolitans. While Israel and its lobby certainly has disproportionate influence, no one believes the Knesset is running Hollywood- if they were, there would be less Holocaust movies and more 6 day war flicks.

    No, you are falling prey to your own bias’ here, and are refusing to acknowledge them.

    That is an empty line; it has no content that connects to what I said and could have been generated by machine.

    Probably not.

    All the developed democracies except Israel are below replacement and have been for decades. The world’s largest ‘democracy’ (India) is using the 1971 census to apportion votes. Demographics have diverged even further and they keep kicking the reckoning down the road. Eventually something will break.

    No, segregation was based on power and authority.

    All social arrangements are based on power and authority in order to enact them. The justification for segregation was based on freedom of association- people had the right to live with people they choose to live with and keep out people they did not with to interact with.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @Samuel Skinner

    "While Israel and its lobby certainly has disproportionate influence..."

    Not disproportionate influence, just influence. It would appear that you would favor (gasp) more inclusion with your comment. And, remember, the Jews got into banking and entertainment because it was generally not kosher for other groups to engage in those activities.

    "That is an empty line; it has no content that connects to what I said and could have been generated by machine."

    Spoken like someone who is ruled by confirmation bias.

    "All the developed democracies except Israel are below replacement..."

    Which seems to be a big deal to only certain white people. Is it a requirement that white people become "woke" on this matter? Do they not have the liberty to other than be "concerned" here?

    "The justification for segregation was based on freedom of association- people had the right to live with people they choose to live with and keep out people they did not with to interact with."

    No, the justification for segregation was based on authority and power under the guise of freedom of association. For those white people who wanted to live among, work alongside, and/or marry blacks, and for blacks who wanted to engage in similar things, there were prohibitions.

    Replies: @Samuel Skinner

  253. @Samuel Skinner
    @Corvinus

    Most of my responses are still in the filter; your guess is as good as mine.


    So America is a vassal of the Jewish Empire, if we are to believe that the Jews control our government.
     
    No. Complaints about Jews are about rootless cosmopolitans. While Israel and its lobby certainly has disproportionate influence, no one believes the Knesset is running Hollywood- if they were, there would be less Holocaust movies and more 6 day war flicks.

    No, you are falling prey to your own bias’ here, and are refusing to acknowledge them.
     
    That is an empty line; it has no content that connects to what I said and could have been generated by machine.

    Probably not.
     
    All the developed democracies except Israel are below replacement and have been for decades. The world's largest 'democracy' (India) is using the 1971 census to apportion votes. Demographics have diverged even further and they keep kicking the reckoning down the road. Eventually something will break.

    No, segregation was based on power and authority.
     
    All social arrangements are based on power and authority in order to enact them. The justification for segregation was based on freedom of association- people had the right to live with people they choose to live with and keep out people they did not with to interact with.

    Replies: @Corvinus

    “While Israel and its lobby certainly has disproportionate influence…”

    Not disproportionate influence, just influence. It would appear that you would favor (gasp) more inclusion with your comment. And, remember, the Jews got into banking and entertainment because it was generally not kosher for other groups to engage in those activities.

    “That is an empty line; it has no content that connects to what I said and could have been generated by machine.”

    Spoken like someone who is ruled by confirmation bias.

    “All the developed democracies except Israel are below replacement…”

    Which seems to be a big deal to only certain white people. Is it a requirement that white people become “woke” on this matter? Do they not have the liberty to other than be “concerned” here?

    “The justification for segregation was based on freedom of association- people had the right to live with people they choose to live with and keep out people they did not with to interact with.”

    No, the justification for segregation was based on authority and power under the guise of freedom of association. For those white people who wanted to live among, work alongside, and/or marry blacks, and for blacks who wanted to engage in similar things, there were prohibitions.

    • Replies: @Samuel Skinner
    @Corvinus


    Not disproportionate influence, just influence.
     
    Israel is the biggest recipient of American foreign aid. The second biggest is Egypt who we pay not to attack them. It isn't entirely Jewish influence (there is alot of pork to the military for example), but Israel certainly has an outsized influence on American politics.

    It would appear that you would favor (gasp) more inclusion with your comment.
     
    Having fewer foreign government involved in American politics is inclusive?

    And, remember, the Jews got into banking and entertainment because it was generally not kosher for other groups to engage in those activities.
     
    The Catholic Church has allowed interest for 500 years. Jews got into entertainment because they are good at it and could make money.

    Which seems to be a big deal to only certain white people. Is it a requirement that white people become “woke” on this matter? Do they not have the liberty to other than be “concerned” here?
     
    I'm not following. Normal people care about their own children and having and raising them. It is a subset of 'white people aren't having children'- we share the same complaint and goals, I'm just looking at the abstract view versus the one of the ground.

    No, the justification for segregation was based on authority and power under the guise of freedom of association. For those white people who wanted to live among, work alongside, and/or marry blacks, and for blacks who wanted to engage in similar things, there were prohibitions.
     
    Nope. If you wanted to live with or work with blacks you were free to personally do that. Segregation by whites kept blacks out of white neighborhoods and workplaces so if you wanted to interact with blacks you go to black neighborhoods and workplaces.

    If you wanted to marry blacks there were 7 states were inter-racial marriage has always been legal (and 11 more that decriminalized it around the time of the civil war); you were free to live there. You could also just declare you were black so that it wasn't an inter-racial marriage.

    Replies: @Corvinus

  254. @Corvinus
    @Samuel Skinner

    "While Israel and its lobby certainly has disproportionate influence..."

    Not disproportionate influence, just influence. It would appear that you would favor (gasp) more inclusion with your comment. And, remember, the Jews got into banking and entertainment because it was generally not kosher for other groups to engage in those activities.

    "That is an empty line; it has no content that connects to what I said and could have been generated by machine."

    Spoken like someone who is ruled by confirmation bias.

    "All the developed democracies except Israel are below replacement..."

    Which seems to be a big deal to only certain white people. Is it a requirement that white people become "woke" on this matter? Do they not have the liberty to other than be "concerned" here?

    "The justification for segregation was based on freedom of association- people had the right to live with people they choose to live with and keep out people they did not with to interact with."

    No, the justification for segregation was based on authority and power under the guise of freedom of association. For those white people who wanted to live among, work alongside, and/or marry blacks, and for blacks who wanted to engage in similar things, there were prohibitions.

    Replies: @Samuel Skinner

    Not disproportionate influence, just influence.

    Israel is the biggest recipient of American foreign aid. The second biggest is Egypt who we pay not to attack them. It isn’t entirely Jewish influence (there is alot of pork to the military for example), but Israel certainly has an outsized influence on American politics.

    It would appear that you would favor (gasp) more inclusion with your comment.

    Having fewer foreign government involved in American politics is inclusive?

    And, remember, the Jews got into banking and entertainment because it was generally not kosher for other groups to engage in those activities.

    The Catholic Church has allowed interest for 500 years. Jews got into entertainment because they are good at it and could make money.

    Which seems to be a big deal to only certain white people. Is it a requirement that white people become “woke” on this matter? Do they not have the liberty to other than be “concerned” here?

    I’m not following. Normal people care about their own children and having and raising them. It is a subset of ‘white people aren’t having children’- we share the same complaint and goals, I’m just looking at the abstract view versus the one of the ground.

    No, the justification for segregation was based on authority and power under the guise of freedom of association. For those white people who wanted to live among, work alongside, and/or marry blacks, and for blacks who wanted to engage in similar things, there were prohibitions.

    Nope. If you wanted to live with or work with blacks you were free to personally do that. Segregation by whites kept blacks out of white neighborhoods and workplaces so if you wanted to interact with blacks you go to black neighborhoods and workplaces.

    If you wanted to marry blacks there were 7 states were inter-racial marriage has always been legal (and 11 more that decriminalized it around the time of the civil war); you were free to live there. You could also just declare you were black so that it wasn’t an inter-racial marriage.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @Samuel Skinner

    "but Israel certainly has an outsized influence on American politics."

    No, just influence. Now, how much influence should Israel or any nation have on America? Is there a percentage? Should all nations be equal in this influence? If yes, would that not be "inclusion"? That is the context of my disproportionate comment.

    "The Catholic Church has allowed interest for 500 years."

    Actually, it has condemned usury, but in modern times, with the rise of capitalism, this prohibition on usury has not been enforced.

    "Nope. If you wanted to live with or work with blacks you were free to personally do that."

    No, southern whites who made that personal choice would be subject to legal consequences. Thus, their freedom of association was being violated.

    "Segregation by whites kept blacks out of white neighborhoods and workplaces so if you wanted to interact with blacks you go to black neighborhoods and workplaces."

    And if a white person wanted to interact with blacks in their neighborhood, they were barred by the law. Which, in essence, limits their freedom and their personal choices.

    "If you wanted to marry blacks there were 7 states were inter-racial marriage has always been legal (and 11 more that decriminalized it around the time of the civil war); you were free to live there."

    That is not "free", that is compulsion. Which, again, is a violation of freedom of association. If a white person wanted to remain in that state with their black husband/wife, that is their own decision, not the decision of lawmakers.

    Replies: @Samuel Skinner

  255. @Samuel Skinner
    @Corvinus


    Not disproportionate influence, just influence.
     
    Israel is the biggest recipient of American foreign aid. The second biggest is Egypt who we pay not to attack them. It isn't entirely Jewish influence (there is alot of pork to the military for example), but Israel certainly has an outsized influence on American politics.

    It would appear that you would favor (gasp) more inclusion with your comment.
     
    Having fewer foreign government involved in American politics is inclusive?

    And, remember, the Jews got into banking and entertainment because it was generally not kosher for other groups to engage in those activities.
     
    The Catholic Church has allowed interest for 500 years. Jews got into entertainment because they are good at it and could make money.

    Which seems to be a big deal to only certain white people. Is it a requirement that white people become “woke” on this matter? Do they not have the liberty to other than be “concerned” here?
     
    I'm not following. Normal people care about their own children and having and raising them. It is a subset of 'white people aren't having children'- we share the same complaint and goals, I'm just looking at the abstract view versus the one of the ground.

    No, the justification for segregation was based on authority and power under the guise of freedom of association. For those white people who wanted to live among, work alongside, and/or marry blacks, and for blacks who wanted to engage in similar things, there were prohibitions.
     
    Nope. If you wanted to live with or work with blacks you were free to personally do that. Segregation by whites kept blacks out of white neighborhoods and workplaces so if you wanted to interact with blacks you go to black neighborhoods and workplaces.

    If you wanted to marry blacks there were 7 states were inter-racial marriage has always been legal (and 11 more that decriminalized it around the time of the civil war); you were free to live there. You could also just declare you were black so that it wasn't an inter-racial marriage.

    Replies: @Corvinus

    “but Israel certainly has an outsized influence on American politics.”

    No, just influence. Now, how much influence should Israel or any nation have on America? Is there a percentage? Should all nations be equal in this influence? If yes, would that not be “inclusion”? That is the context of my disproportionate comment.

    “The Catholic Church has allowed interest for 500 years.”

    Actually, it has condemned usury, but in modern times, with the rise of capitalism, this prohibition on usury has not been enforced.

    “Nope. If you wanted to live with or work with blacks you were free to personally do that.”

    No, southern whites who made that personal choice would be subject to legal consequences. Thus, their freedom of association was being violated.

    “Segregation by whites kept blacks out of white neighborhoods and workplaces so if you wanted to interact with blacks you go to black neighborhoods and workplaces.”

    And if a white person wanted to interact with blacks in their neighborhood, they were barred by the law. Which, in essence, limits their freedom and their personal choices.

    “If you wanted to marry blacks there were 7 states were inter-racial marriage has always been legal (and 11 more that decriminalized it around the time of the civil war); you were free to live there.”

    That is not “free”, that is compulsion. Which, again, is a violation of freedom of association. If a white person wanted to remain in that state with their black husband/wife, that is their own decision, not the decision of lawmakers.

    • Replies: @Samuel Skinner
    @Corvinus


    No, just influence. Now, how much influence should Israel or any nation have on America? Is there a percentage? Should all nations be equal in this influence? If yes, would that not be “inclusion”? That is the context of my disproportionate comment.
     
    Disproportionate is a relative measure. Since other countries exist we can measure it relative to them.

    Actually, it has condemned usury, but in modern times, with the rise of capitalism, this prohibition on usury has not been enforced.
     
    Interest and usury are not the same thing. The Church has always condemned usury- borrowing money not backed by concrete assets or to pay for consumption.

    No, southern whites who made that personal choice would be subject to legal consequences. Thus, their freedom of association was being violated.
     
    I'm pretty sure white people hired and worked with blacks in the South. You appear to be claiming there was zero economic interaction which is incredible given the majority of blacks were sharecroppers.

    And if a white person wanted to interact with blacks in their neighborhood, they were barred by the law. Which, in essence, limits their freedom and their personal choices.
     
    By that standards home owners agreements and zoning violate freedom and personal choice. Holding up absolute freedom is incoherent- if you are free to invite in blacks, other people are not free to live in an area without blacks.

    That is not “free”, that is compulsion. Which, again, is a violation of freedom of association. If a white person wanted to remain in that state with their black husband/wife, that is their own decision, not the decision of lawmakers.
     
    How is 'you can marry black people if you identify as black' not free? It is exactly as free as being able to go to another country and become a citizen and give up your previous citizenship.
  256. @Corvinus
    @Samuel Skinner

    "but Israel certainly has an outsized influence on American politics."

    No, just influence. Now, how much influence should Israel or any nation have on America? Is there a percentage? Should all nations be equal in this influence? If yes, would that not be "inclusion"? That is the context of my disproportionate comment.

    "The Catholic Church has allowed interest for 500 years."

    Actually, it has condemned usury, but in modern times, with the rise of capitalism, this prohibition on usury has not been enforced.

    "Nope. If you wanted to live with or work with blacks you were free to personally do that."

    No, southern whites who made that personal choice would be subject to legal consequences. Thus, their freedom of association was being violated.

    "Segregation by whites kept blacks out of white neighborhoods and workplaces so if you wanted to interact with blacks you go to black neighborhoods and workplaces."

    And if a white person wanted to interact with blacks in their neighborhood, they were barred by the law. Which, in essence, limits their freedom and their personal choices.

    "If you wanted to marry blacks there were 7 states were inter-racial marriage has always been legal (and 11 more that decriminalized it around the time of the civil war); you were free to live there."

    That is not "free", that is compulsion. Which, again, is a violation of freedom of association. If a white person wanted to remain in that state with their black husband/wife, that is their own decision, not the decision of lawmakers.

    Replies: @Samuel Skinner

    No, just influence. Now, how much influence should Israel or any nation have on America? Is there a percentage? Should all nations be equal in this influence? If yes, would that not be “inclusion”? That is the context of my disproportionate comment.

    Disproportionate is a relative measure. Since other countries exist we can measure it relative to them.

    Actually, it has condemned usury, but in modern times, with the rise of capitalism, this prohibition on usury has not been enforced.

    Interest and usury are not the same thing. The Church has always condemned usury- borrowing money not backed by concrete assets or to pay for consumption.

    No, southern whites who made that personal choice would be subject to legal consequences. Thus, their freedom of association was being violated.

    I’m pretty sure white people hired and worked with blacks in the South. You appear to be claiming there was zero economic interaction which is incredible given the majority of blacks were sharecroppers.

    And if a white person wanted to interact with blacks in their neighborhood, they were barred by the law. Which, in essence, limits their freedom and their personal choices.

    By that standards home owners agreements and zoning violate freedom and personal choice. Holding up absolute freedom is incoherent- if you are free to invite in blacks, other people are not free to live in an area without blacks.

    That is not “free”, that is compulsion. Which, again, is a violation of freedom of association. If a white person wanted to remain in that state with their black husband/wife, that is their own decision, not the decision of lawmakers.

    How is ‘you can marry black people if you identify as black’ not free? It is exactly as free as being able to go to another country and become a citizen and give up your previous citizenship.

  257. “Interest and usury are not the same thing.”

    They are related. Usury –> the illegal action or practice of lending money at unreasonably high rates of interest.

    “I’m pretty sure white people hired and worked with blacks in the South.”

    Absolutely.

    “You appear to be claiming there was zero economic interaction which is incredible given the majority of blacks were sharecroppers.”

    I never directly or indirectly made that claim.

    “By that standards home owners agreements and zoning violate freedom and personal choice.”

    Depends how the law is written.

    “Holding up absolute freedom is incoherent- if you are free to invite in blacks, other people are not free to live in an area without blacks.”

    According to segregation, whites had the absolute freedom to deny housing to blacks in their neighborhood. And those individual whites who opposed segregation on grounds of freedom of association were denied the liberty to do what they wanted with their own property, in this case sell their home to a black family.

    “How is ‘you can marry black people if you identify as black’ not free?”

    I never made that characterization. That is YOUR strawman. Regardless, white people who married black people in the South are still white. No need for the white person to then self identify as black, since the white person from a legal standpoint remains white. From a social perspective, that white person would be looked at as a “race traitor” by those whites who opposed the mixing of the races.

    • Replies: @Samuel Skinner
    @Corvinus


    I never directly or indirectly made that claim.
     
    “Nope. If you wanted to live with or work with blacks you were free to personally do that.”

    No, southern whites who made that personal choice would be subject to legal consequences. Thus, their freedom of association was being violated.
    ---

    And those individual whites who opposed segregation on grounds of freedom of association were denied the liberty to do what they wanted with their own property, in this case sell their home to a black family.
     
    Only if you lived in an area with that rule. It is no more oppression then living in an area with zoning laws and not being able to turn your home into a restaurant.

    Regardless, white people who married black people in the South are still white. No need for the white person to then self identify as black, since the white person from a legal standpoint remains white.
     
    Only from a biological standpoint (where black is defined by percent ancestry). From a legal standpoint you can become black by declaring your ethnicity is black.

    From a social perspective, that white person would be looked at as a “race traitor” by those whites who opposed the mixing of the races.
     
    And most people don't give up citizenship to become citizens of other countries. That doesn't mean citizenship exclusive is oppressive.

    Replies: @Corvinus

  258. @Corvinus
    "Interest and usury are not the same thing."

    They are related. Usury --> the illegal action or practice of lending money at unreasonably high rates of interest.

    "I’m pretty sure white people hired and worked with blacks in the South."

    Absolutely.

    "You appear to be claiming there was zero economic interaction which is incredible given the majority of blacks were sharecroppers."

    I never directly or indirectly made that claim.

    "By that standards home owners agreements and zoning violate freedom and personal choice."

    Depends how the law is written.

    "Holding up absolute freedom is incoherent- if you are free to invite in blacks, other people are not free to live in an area without blacks."

    According to segregation, whites had the absolute freedom to deny housing to blacks in their neighborhood. And those individual whites who opposed segregation on grounds of freedom of association were denied the liberty to do what they wanted with their own property, in this case sell their home to a black family.

    "How is ‘you can marry black people if you identify as black’ not free?"

    I never made that characterization. That is YOUR strawman. Regardless, white people who married black people in the South are still white. No need for the white person to then self identify as black, since the white person from a legal standpoint remains white. From a social perspective, that white person would be looked at as a "race traitor" by those whites who opposed the mixing of the races.

    Replies: @Samuel Skinner

    I never directly or indirectly made that claim.

    “Nope. If you wanted to live with or work with blacks you were free to personally do that.”

    No, southern whites who made that personal choice would be subject to legal consequences. Thus, their freedom of association was being violated.

    And those individual whites who opposed segregation on grounds of freedom of association were denied the liberty to do what they wanted with their own property, in this case sell their home to a black family.

    Only if you lived in an area with that rule. It is no more oppression then living in an area with zoning laws and not being able to turn your home into a restaurant.

    Regardless, white people who married black people in the South are still white. No need for the white person to then self identify as black, since the white person from a legal standpoint remains white.

    Only from a biological standpoint (where black is defined by percent ancestry). From a legal standpoint you can become black by declaring your ethnicity is black.

    From a social perspective, that white person would be looked at as a “race traitor” by those whites who opposed the mixing of the races.

    And most people don’t give up citizenship to become citizens of other countries. That doesn’t mean citizenship exclusive is oppressive.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @Samuel Skinner

    "Only if you lived in an area with that rule. It is no more oppression then living in an area with zoning laws and not being able to turn your home into a restaurant."

    The rules were everywhere in the South! It was oppressive for those southern whites who wanted to cavort with blacks for business and pleasure.

    "Only from a biological standpoint (where black is defined by percent ancestry). From a legal standpoint you can become black by declaring your ethnicity is black."

    No, from BOTH a biological and legal standpoint. Furthermore, an actual white person could not become legally "black" in the South. Finally, using your logic, it would appear that race is a social construct.

    "And most people don’t give up citizenship to become citizens of other countries. That doesn’t mean citizenship exclusive is oppressive."

    You're speaking gooblygook. What are you even talking about?

  259. @Samuel Skinner
    @Corvinus


    I never directly or indirectly made that claim.
     
    “Nope. If you wanted to live with or work with blacks you were free to personally do that.”

    No, southern whites who made that personal choice would be subject to legal consequences. Thus, their freedom of association was being violated.
    ---

    And those individual whites who opposed segregation on grounds of freedom of association were denied the liberty to do what they wanted with their own property, in this case sell their home to a black family.
     
    Only if you lived in an area with that rule. It is no more oppression then living in an area with zoning laws and not being able to turn your home into a restaurant.

    Regardless, white people who married black people in the South are still white. No need for the white person to then self identify as black, since the white person from a legal standpoint remains white.
     
    Only from a biological standpoint (where black is defined by percent ancestry). From a legal standpoint you can become black by declaring your ethnicity is black.

    From a social perspective, that white person would be looked at as a “race traitor” by those whites who opposed the mixing of the races.
     
    And most people don't give up citizenship to become citizens of other countries. That doesn't mean citizenship exclusive is oppressive.

    Replies: @Corvinus

    “Only if you lived in an area with that rule. It is no more oppression then living in an area with zoning laws and not being able to turn your home into a restaurant.”

    The rules were everywhere in the South! It was oppressive for those southern whites who wanted to cavort with blacks for business and pleasure.

    “Only from a biological standpoint (where black is defined by percent ancestry). From a legal standpoint you can become black by declaring your ethnicity is black.”

    No, from BOTH a biological and legal standpoint. Furthermore, an actual white person could not become legally “black” in the South. Finally, using your logic, it would appear that race is a social construct.

    “And most people don’t give up citizenship to become citizens of other countries. That doesn’t mean citizenship exclusive is oppressive.”

    You’re speaking gooblygook. What are you even talking about?

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