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The Eurasian Steppe, the grasslands extending (with interruptions) from Hungary to Manchuria, is one of the world’s more important geographic features.

On horseback, it’s relatively easy to get around on since your horses have plenty of grass to eat, unlike in forests where feeding horses is troublesome. The main problems are other people on horseback, plus the occasional gigantic Asian mountain range.

Not surprisingly, there has been gene flow over the centuries back and forth between East Asia and Europe. For example, a couple of my friends in high school who were of European descent, one Hungarian, one Russian, had slightly East Asian looking eyes.

On the other hand, perhaps it’s surprising how little gene flow there has been.

One thing to keep in mind is how low the population density is in the middle of Eurasia north of the Himalayas. Most people who live in northern Eurasia live either at the European end or the East Asian end. This makes it less relevant to consider northern Eurasia as one giant racial cline and more relevant to think of it as primarily comprising two distant races.

A 2015 paper in Scientific Reports (thanks to iSteve commenter Anti-HBD) looked at current (not ancient populations) and tried to estimate admixture by treating the French as representative Europeans and the Dai of Southern China (and also of Laos and Thailand) as representative East Asians.

Some groups, such as the poor Uygurs of western China and the Hazara of central Afghanistan (who trace their ancestry to the Mongol invasion) are visibly hybrids of East Asians and West Eurasians. But the same is slightly true for many other groups, especially in the north of Eurasia.

Strikingly, the study finds the concept of a European race versus an East Asian race to be highly useful for measuring admixture. Paradoxically, to collect evidence for admixture, you need the concept of racial difference.

Quantitating and Dating Recent Gene Flow between European and East Asian Populations

Published: 02 April 2015

Pengfei Qin, Ying Zhou, Haiyi Lou, Dongsheng Lu, Xiong Yang, Yuchen Wang, Li Jin, Yeun-Jun Chung & Shuhua Xu

Abstract
Historical records indicate that extensive cultural, commercial and technological interaction occurred between European and Asian populations. What have been the biological consequences of these contacts in terms of gene flow? We systematically estimated gene flow between Eurasian groups using genome-wide polymorphisms from 34 populations representing Europeans, East Asians and Central/South Asians. We identified recent gene flow between Europeans and Asians in most populations we studied, including East Asians and Northwestern Europeans, which are normally considered to be non-admixed populations. In addition we quantitatively estimated the extent of this gene flow using two statistical approaches and dated admixture events based on admixture linkage disequilibrium. Our results indicate that most genetic admixtures occurred between 2,400 and 310 years ago and show the admixture proportions to be highly correlated with geographic locations, with the highest admixture proportions observed in Central Asia and the lowest in East Asia and Northwestern Europe. Interestingly, we observed a North-to-South decline of European gene flow in East Asians, suggesting a northern path of European gene flow diffusing into East Asian populations. Our findings contribute to an improved understanding of the history of human migration and the evolutionary mechanisms that have shaped the genetic structure of populations in Eurasia.

Introduction
… Previous studies have revealed that the populations of Central Asia, such as Uygur, are typically admixed with genetic contributions from both European and East Asian populations. …

Here we present what is, to the best of our knowledge, a systematic investigation of genetic admixture between different European and Asian populations using genome-wide single nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) data from 34 populations, including seven European groups (EUR), 9 Central or South Asian groups (CSA) and 17 East Asian groups (EAS) and one Tibetan group from Tibet Plateau. Based on statistical analysis using 4 Population Test (f4-test) and 3 Population Test (f3-test)10,11, we detected gene flow between Europeans and Asians were prevalent for most populations including even those from west-northern Europe and East Asia which have been generally regarded as less admixed. …

In total, 1,132 Eurasian samples with 186,506 SNPs integrated from different technical platforms were used for analysis (see Methods). …We observed that some clusters of West and East Eurasians are slightly shifted towards each other, indicating potential admixture between them (Fig. 1). There is a clear ‘cline’ between West and East clusters. These shifts of PC patterns are especially obvious for most CSA, some northern EAS including Mongolian, Xibo, Hezhen, Oroqen etc. and eastern EUR including Russian, Finnish and Adygei. … these CSA (such as Uygur, Haraza, Pathan, Burusho, Kalash and Sindhi) are typical admixed populations with a high level of gene flow from both EUR and EAS ancestries. Different from other CSA, Makrani showed significant signal of African ancestry. And there was no admixture signal for Brahui.

… We detected 2.8 ± 0.2% EUR ancestry in Northern Han Chinese (CHB), which was more than that in Southern Han Chinese (CHS; 1.7 ± 0.1%), Japanese (2.2 ± 0.2%) and Korean (1.6 ± 0.2%) populations. Northeast Asians such as Oroqen, Mongolian, Hezhen and Daur (nomads who historically lived alongside Russians and Caucasians) inherited significantly more alleles from EUR: Mongolian 10.9 ± 0.1%, Oroqen 9.6 ± 0.2%, Daur 8.0 ± 0.2% and Hezhen 6.8 ± 0.2%.

… CEU populations mostly originating from France and Germany had a small fraction (0.7 ± 0.8%) of genetic material from EAS. People from Great Britain such as British (GBR) and Orcadian inherited 2.5%–3.8% from ancestral EAS. Finnish (FIN) and Russians inherited significantly more genetic material (>12%) from ancestral EAS, which is consistent with their historical record of admixture with Mongolian populations. Besides, Adygei from Caucasus inherited 3.2 ± 1.0% from ancestral EAS.

… The results (Table 2) revealed that CSA, located in the middle of the Eurasian continent, mostly are typical admixed populations with a high level of gene flow from EUR and EAS ancestries. Uygur from Northwest China exhibit 52.4% EUR ancestry. For those populations from Pakistan, Pathan exhibits 78.4% EUR ancestry. Burusho and Hazara have 67.9% and 50.2% EUR ancestry, respectively. Admixture proportions for some CSA are relatively small, for which Kalash has 20.7% EUR ancestry, Sindhi 11%, Balochi 2.1%.

We also performed F4 Ratio Estimation to estimate admixture proportion for EAS and EUR. Using this method, we obtained comparable results to the regression method (Supplementary Table S2). For example, we detected 9.7% EUR ancestry in the Mongolian population. EUR ancestry is more pronounced among Northern Han Chinese than southern Han Chinese. In addition, Russian and Finnish populations show ~13% Asian ancestry.

Keep in mind, however, that 2015 was a long time ago in population genetics …

 
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  1. EurAsian, your Mama’s Asian, we’re all Asian.

    • Replies: @dvorak
    , @Charles
  2. Anonymous[367] • Disclaimer says:

    My Dad is 1/2 Hungarian and I inherited a slight epicanthal fold in my eyes, which are also blue due to Irish influence on both sides. The Asian influence is even more apparent in my Dad’s brother’s eyes.

    • Replies: @anonymous
    , @slumber_j
  3. fnn says:

    We need to convince large numbers of SJWs and Antifa to go to China to protest this pseudo-science.

  4. anonymous[164] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    Hungarians may be a special case and not indicative of general Asian gene flow to Europe since they migrated en masse in the tenth century and speak a Uralic language.

    • Replies: @Yngvar
  5. syonredux says:

    The Mal’ta–Buret’ are kinda interesting:

    The Mal’ta–Buret’ culture is an archaeological culture of the Upper Paleolithic (c. 24,000 to 15,000 BP) on the upper Angara River in the area west of Lake Baikal in the Irkutsk Oblast, Siberia, Russian Federation. The type sites are named for the villages of Mal’ta (Мальта́), Usolsky District and Buret’ (Буреть), Bokhansky District (both in Irkutsk Oblast).

    A boy whose remains were found near Mal’ta is usually known by the abbreviation MA-1 (or MA1). Discovered in the 1920s, the remains have been dated to 24,000 BP. According to research published since 2013, MA-1 belonged to a population related to the genetic ancestors of Siberians, American Indians, and Bronze Age Yamnaya people of the Eurasian steppe.[1][2] In particular, modern-day Native Americans, Kets, Mansi, and Selkup have been found to harbour a lot of ancestry related to MA-1.[3]

    A people similar to MA-1 were important genetic contributors to Native Americans, Europeans, Central and South Asians, and minor contribution to East Eurasians. [8] Lazaridis et al. (2016) notes “a cline of ANE ancestry across the east-west extent of Eurasia.”[9] According to a 2016 study, it was found that the global maximum of ANE ancestry occurs in modern-day Kets, Mansi, Native Americans, and Selkups.[3] Additionally it has been reported in ancient Bronze-age-steppe Yamnaya and Afanasevo cultures.[2] Between 14 and 38 percent of Native American ancestry may originate from gene flow from the Mal’ta Buret people, while the other gene flow in Native Americans appears to have an Eastern Eurasian origin. [1]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mal%27ta%E2%80%93Buret%27_culture

    The ANE lineage is defined by association with MA-1, or “Mal’ta boy”, the remains of an individual who lived during the Last Glacial Maximum, 24,000 years ago, discovered in the 1920s. Populations genetically similar to MA-1 were an important genetic contributor to Native Americans, Europeans, Central Asians, South Asians, and some East Asians, in order of significance.[2] Lazaridis et al. (2016:10) note “a cline of ANE ancestry across the east-west extent of Eurasia.”[2] Flegontov et al. (2016) found that the global maximum of ANE ancestry occurs in modern-day Native Americans, Kets and Selkup.[1] Additionally it has been reported in ancient Bronze-age-steppe Yamnaya and Afanasevo cultures.[3] 42% of South American Native American ancestry originates from ANE peoples,[4] while between 14% and 38% of North American Native American ancestry may originate from gene flow from the Mal’ta Buret people. This difference is caused by the penetration of posterior Siberian migrations into the Americas, with the lowest percentages of ANE ancestry found in Eskimos and Alaskan Natives, as these groups are the result of migrations into the Americas roughly 5,000 years ago.[5] The other gene flow in Native Americans appears to have an Eastern Eurasian origin.[6] Gene sequencing of another south-central Siberian people (Afontova Gora-2) dating to approximately 17,000 years ago, revealed similar autosomal genetic signatures to that of Mal’ta boy-1, suggesting that the region was continuously occupied by humans throughout the Last Glacial Maximum.[6]

    Genomic studies also indicate that ANE was introduced to Western Europe by way of the Yamna/Yamnaya culture, long after the Paleolithic.[3][1] The ANE genetic component is visible in tests of the Yamnaya people, and seems to make up 50% of their ancestry indirectly.[3][1] It is also reported in modern-day Europeans (7%–25% ANE admixture directly from Yamnaya), but not of Europeans predating the Bronze Age.[3][1] Additional ANE ancestry is found in European populations through paleolithic interactions with Eastern Hunter-Gatherers, which resulted in populations such as Scandinavian Hunter-Gatherers.[7]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_North_Eurasian

    • Replies: @backup
  6. Rosie says:

    Hungarians look huwite to me, although the outfits definitely have an Asian flair.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  7. Anonymous[425] • Disclaimer says:

    Eurasia has been rather lackluster compared to Russia and East Asia.

    Maybe such mixing only leads to cultural confusion. It seems Islam is the only thing that unites people in Eurasia.

  8. Anti-HBD says:

    While I would like to thank you for the mention, are there any post 2015 studies that changed any of the conclusions of that paper?

    • Replies: @backup
  9. anon[365] • Disclaimer says:

    Personality, like race, is a just a social construct, so it shouldn’t matter if the personalities of characters in books and moves are changed. If Hermione can be black or white, why can’t she be smart or dumb?

  10. dvorak says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Don’t skip to the last minute of the track to hear the Gadd fills. Fagen and Becker really hate it when you do that.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  11. 30% of Swedes and Danes have shovel incisors, typical of Asian dentition.(sinodonty: today’s new word) Here’s a link: http://www.mjpath.org.my/past_issue/MJP1996.1/mongoloid-dentition.pdf

  12. Thomm says:

    ‘Uighur’ rhymes with ‘Wigger’.

  13. Around 30% of Danes and Swedes have shoveled incisors, typical of Asian teeth (also called sinodonty). http://www.mjpath.org.my/past_issue/MJP1996.1/mongoloid-dentition.pdf

  14. jb says:

    This whole issue of “race” is something of a red herring. It’s basically a dispute over terminology, not over anything that matters. What matters is difference. The fact that human populations differ genetically is important; the question of whether those differences are best characterized as clusters or clines much less so.

    Leftists have glomed onto the idea that “race doesn’t exist” because they mistakenly believe that this rules out a priori any possibility that whites could be smarter than blacks (an issue of truly enormous emotional and doctrinal importance to them). But even if the anti-racists win the terminological dispute, West Africans will still be better sprinters than East Africans, Tibetans will still thrive at high altitudes, and so on. If it were widely understood that it’s perfectly possible for whites to be smarter than blacks even if race doesn’t exist, that would totally take the wind out of the sails of the race deniers. They would stop talking about it and stop caring about it. Unfortunately the issue is sufficiently subtle that you aren’t going to understand it unless you want to understand it, and of course they just don’t.

    • Agree: jim jones, utu
  15. There is something really fascinating about those tiny, isolated ethnic groups in Russia that exist between Europe and Asia.

    • Replies: @International Jew
  16. 1. There are three black quarterbacks left in the AFC

    2. white girls crave black men

    • Replies: @fish
    , @TWS
  17. Anonymous[268] • Disclaimer says:

    Russian Buryats, the most beautiful mix of European and Asian. They’re worth braving the -60 degree winters in Buryatia.


  18. Anon[349] • Disclaimer says:

    Saini book reviewed at Ars Technica by white, male science writer.

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/01/why-racism-in-science-never-really-went-away/

    It’s a relatively woke review, buying into the book hook, line, and sinker. Apparently, naive scientists and crypto racists are combining to promote the concept of race.

    Ars is published by the company that operates Teen Vogue. They’ve generally managed to stick to their knitting, but the influence of moving to New York post acquisition seems to have put them on the road to “Nature-ization” or “Scientific American-ization.”

  19. Paradoxically, to collect evidence for admixture, you need the concept of racial difference.

    Is “paradoxically” really le mot juste? Wouldn’t “by definition” be more to the point?

  20. Eurasian can unite under a single national banner.

    Worked wonders for Europe!

    They can just fly the Risk board:

  21. Charles says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    If I was permitted only one album to listen to for the rest of my life, it’s Aja.

  22. Bruce says:

    Algis Budrys had a novel where a Russian cosmonaut mentions ‘the six-legged ones’, the fellows on horseback across Eurasia.

  23. Professor Kenneth W. Harl has an informative lecture series available from thegreatcourses.com titled The Barbarian Empires of the Steppes. It starts with the early Indo-Aryans and ends with the Mughal Empire of India, the last great empire established by steppe nomadic conquest of a sedentary civilization.

    • Agree: Redneck farmer, Hodag
    • Replies: @John Derbyshire
  24. Sean says:

    Paradoxically, to collect evidence for admixture, you need the concept of racial difference.

    The final solution is always eliminativism. If you cannot liquidate the actual human beings in a category, then simply eliminate the category as a concept.

  25. fish says:
    @Sisternight

    Ohs Tinys….theys U B goin again

  26. @Anonymous

    If I am to picture “the most beautiful mix of European and Asian,” a bit more feminine gracility is in order.

    Judging by your aesthetic preferences, I’ll put you in the “lumper” category.

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
  27. MEH 0910 says:
    @Charles

    Aja playlist:

    As an aside, the MCA cassette tape had a different track order, which is how I was first exposed to the album. As a formative experience, part of me still prefers that order.

    https://www.discogs.com/Steely-Dan-Aja/release/6512310

    Tracklist
    A1 Aja
    A2 Deacon Blues
    A3 Josie
    B1 Black Cow
    B2 I Got The News
    B3 Peg
    B4 Home At Last

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  28. Stories of people riding out of the steppes, raping and plundering, are just a social construct.

    • LOL: Digital Samizdat
  29. @jb

    The debate rages on between sane, measurable biology and immeasurably insane ideology: https://www.google.com/search?ei=978RXsW8CobStQbwyYrAAw&q=race+difference+in+medicine&oq=race+difference+in+medicine&gs_l=psy-ab.12…2022.3652..5725…0.2..0.68.133.2……0….1..gws-wiz…….0i71j33i10.KTkjE1T_z5U&ved=0ahUKEwiFlKW7pezmAhUGac0KHfCkAjgQ4dUDCAs

    Even some medical schools are now arguing that race doesn’t exist, even though it absolutely does for the purposes of treating black (and other, including female, even though gender is also imaginary) bodies. This won’t end well, ’cause nothing ever does: https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/5d860c47-2d9e-4599-a8f8-364df66583e7

    • Replies: @megabar
    , @utu
  30. @Charles

    It’s even better on a Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs 24K gold CD, of which a very few sealed copies are still available for beaucoup bucks at Discogs. Yeah, those last measures of the title track are giddily hypnotic.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  31. Hodag says:

    A great example of truly mixed people are the Uzbeks.

  32. There are quite a few Tibetans in Madison.

    Some local hapa kids tell me they are often mistaken for being Tibetan, to the point where Tibetans will walk up to them and speak Tibetan. In one case a Tibetan and a hapa were walking together and another Tibetan thought the Tibetan was hapa and the hapa was Tibetan.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  33. “Pathan exhibits 78.4% EUR ancestry”

    “Northeast Asians such as Oroqen, Mongolian, Hezhen and Daur (nomads who historically lived alongside Russians and Caucasians) inherited significantly more alleles from EUR: Mongolian 10.9 ± 0.1%, Oroqen 9.6 ± 0.2%”

    Upon my return to the head office after a three-day, 100-mile tour of the camps, I met Gelminto, the Orochon. Like most of his tribe, he was rather short, had bowlegs, and his hands were small. His face was flat and grayish, with prominent cheekbones and narrow, dark-brown eyes. A long, straight, almost Caucasian nose was in sharp contrast to the rest of his Mongoloid features.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20120516010451/http://www.loukashkin.org/Orochon/

  34. TWS says:
    @Sisternight

    Too bad you’re gay Tiny, you could be getting in on that action. But as you’ve mentioned before you’re gay.

  35. Anonymous[185] • Disclaimer says:

    Actually, the quantum of ‘east Asian’ ancestry in European Russians, or in ‘eastern/central’ Europeans is trivial to the point of non existence/imperceptibility. Forget the Nazi propaganda.

    That certain ‘cast of countenance’ found in certain east Euros which Steve writes about is doubtless due to the pronounced ‘EHG’, (Eastern Hunter Gatherer), component in eastern European genomes.

    For the record, male mediated EHG ancestry – mediated by the Steppe people or ‘Aryans’ – was *the* characteristic of the peoples who swept over Europe and Asia introducing the Indo European languages. The third and final component after Mediterranean Farmers, and western hunter gatherers, in the European ethnogenesis.

    • Replies: @Anti-HBD
  36. @Red Pill Angel

    Apologies for the extra comment (#10 and #12). Something went wrong last night, my first comment disappeared, and the edit function was gone, I hope not forever. Could you please take one down, Mr. Sailer?

    The photo of the Russian half-Asian families remind me of the Japanese grandma/white American grandpa photos I retouched years ago. The children looked Asian, but the grandkids looked only slightly exotic and were often blond and blue-eyed. Carlton Coons noted this, picturing Siberian folk with half-Asian heritage, and maintained that Asian appearance markers were recessive, unlike African. There are many Europeans with uptilted eyes and I wonder if they are all ultimately Asian? Slanted blue eyes are a typically Russian look but they don’t seem so much Scandinavian.

    • Replies: @siberiancat
  37. Anonymous[837] • Disclaimer says:

    Did you have a specific point? Even a tentative one? I really dislike this tendency that has spread through the blog/twitter-sphere for people to throw items out (with an intended interpretation) but not to speak the point.

  38. @Hodag

    This most definitely looks like the harem of Özbeg Khan, Lord of the Golden Horde 😀

  39. @Bard of Bumperstickers

    Indeed, Bard. If your mind is not already in a far-away place by 03:45, then you’ve got problems … with your wifi, hi-fi, something!

  40. @dvorak

    Haha! Not to worry, Dvorak. I can’t listen to music that way – I’m the guy who calls up and bitches out the DJ for playing Journey’s Feelin’ that Way without following it up with Anytime. Same with Bicycle Race without Fat-Bottomed Girls. People like that should be locked up.

    (No, the 1st 8 seconds are not Tiny Dancer – get a clue, man!)

  41. anonymous[443] • Disclaimer says:

    I don’t understand the figures for East Asian percentage for these South Asian groups

    Balochi South Asia 97.9 ± 0.4
    Kalash South Asia 79.3 ± 0.3

    Balochis are brown people who don’t at all resemble Asians. While Kalash are blonde with blue eyes.

  42. Anti-HBD says:
    @Anonymous

    Did you read the paper? 13% not trivial to non-existent, in Russians at least. Even in Orcadians it is about 2-4%.

    • Replies: @FvS
  43. @MEH 0910

    Too young for anything but radio, so missed title track. Just as formative. Couldn’t ask for a better childhood soundtrack in general.

    • Replies: @BB753
  44. @International Jew

    Is that from High Fidelity or Say Anything?

  45. @soonertroll

    Harl’s lectures demand a high level of tolerance for dyslexic speech https://www.johnderbyshire.com/Opinions/Diaries/2017-01.html#07 — higher than mine, anyway

  46. megabar says:
    @Bard of Bumperstickers

    > Even some medical schools are now arguing that race doesn’t exist, even though it absolutely does for the purposes of treating black

    Good ol’ fashioned doublethink.

  47. utu says:
    @Bard of Bumperstickers

    Definitions matter. Time may render the current definitions moot. Even the current definitions suffer from fuzzy boundary problem.

    Bulworth Racial Deconstruction

  48. @Jenner Ickham Errican

    “Gracility” isn’t inherently feminine or masculine. There is a gracile masculine and a gracile feminine, for example.

    The women he posted were extremely feminine. Besides, women tend to look more like that than men do.

    • Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican
  49. @Red Pill Angel

    The gene most commonly associated with sinodonty likely originated in Northern Europe and spread to East Asia. The oldest people to carry the “sinodonty” gene were from Sweden and had no East Asian ancestry.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4918750/

    We find a surprise in six Scandinavian hunter-gatherers (SHG) from the Motala site in southern Sweden. In three out of six samples, we observe the haplotype carrying the derived allele of rs3827760 in the EDAR gene (Extended Data Fig. 5), which affects tooth morphology and hair thickness33,34, has been the subject of a selective sweep in East Asia35, and today is at high frequency in East Asians and Native Americans. The EDAR derived allele is largely absent in present-day Europe except in Scandinavia, plausibly due to Siberian movements into the region millennia after the date of the Motala samples. The SHG have no evidence of East Asian ancestry4,7, suggesting that the EDAR derived allele may not have originated not in East Asians as previously suggested35. A second surprise is that, unlike closely related western hunter-gatherers, the Motala samples have predominantly derived pigmentation alleles at SLC45A2 and SLC24A5

    • Replies: @Red Pill Angel
  50. Dube says:

    Paradoxically, to collect evidence for admixture, you need the concept of racial difference.

    Thank you, Steve. Frame and mount it.

  51. Currahee says:
    @jb

    Negro Delusion is the basic fantasy bubble of leftism today.

  52. @Anonymous

    Got bikini pics? I know it’s -60 F and all, but still…

  53. @JohnPlywood

    “Gracility” isn’t inherently feminine or masculine.

    I wrote “feminine gracility” because women were the visual topic of consideration. Male looks may be judged by different criteria depending on the beholder—a bit more ‘robustness’ may be preferred.

    The Buryats above have lumpy bowling ball noggins. If you like that, you’re a “lumper.”

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
  54. @Hodag

    I like their New York plate, with Niagara Falls in the corner. Where was this taken?

    Uzbekistan is one of only two doubly-landlocked countries in the world. The other one is somewhat less mixed:

    If you don’t count the Great Lakes, Nebraska is trebly-landlocked among states.

  55. @Paleo Liberal

    There are quite a few Tibetans in Madison.

    15-20 years ago, they were telling us the thousand or so Tibetans in the Twin Cities were the second-largest concentration in the US, after NYC’s. That’s a concentration most of us could live with. Too bad it doesn’t apply to the 50-100 immigrant groups that outnumber them here.

  56. Lumping or Splitting Eurasians?

    I don’t want to see the explosion when they finally split a Eurasian.

    Totally OT, what are the geopolitical implications of the toppling of Zlatan Ibrahimović’s statue?

  57. @Jenner Ickham Errican

    Male looks may be judged by different criteria depending on the beholder—a bit more ‘robustness’ may be preferred.

    Evidently not:

    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0146328

    The Buryats above have lumpy bowling ball noggins. If you like that, you’re a “lumper.”

    No, they are neotenic. If you do not like them, you are a closeted homosexual.

    • Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican
  58. @JohnPlywood

    Evidently not

    Your cited study mentions both pros and cons:

    On the one hand, “feminine” men, contrary to masculine women, are often noted for their beauty.

    In other situations, however, feminine men, like masculine women, are scorned. Feminine-looking men are in some cases perceived as less competent, less suitable for “masculine” roles (e.g., “team leader”). They are also seen as more likely to be homosexual and to suffer prejudices that accompany that attribution.

    You wrote of the roundheads:

    No, they are neotenic.

    If neotenic means pit bull physiognomy, I agree. Lookit them powerful jaws! Bite strength must be off the charts.

    Dude, you’re a lumper. It’s okay. No need to get defensive.

  59. Yngvar says:
    @anonymous

    The Hungarians are Slavs like their neighbors, they’ve just adopted a new language.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    , @Prester John
  60. @Hodag

    I found the Uzbeks to be almost completely Turkic-Arab. The men reminded me, in dress and appearance and manners, of the Lebanese men who lived in my neighbourhood when I was growing up.

    For a truly mixed people, Kazakhstan is the place.

    Borat always struck me as much more Uzbek than Kazakh.

    • Replies: @Kibernetika
  61. BB753 says:
    @Desiderius

    Are you sure Steely Dan is a Steve Sailer Approved® band, like The Ramones or Led Zeppelin? LOL!
    Where’s the Walter Becker obituary on isteve?

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    , @MEH 0910
  62. backup says:
    @syonredux

    Current models need a dash ANE to explain West-European Mesolithic hunter-gather. Furthermore, the predecessors of ANE have also been found in 38,000 year old Yana river samples. The paper also discusses how Indians came about:

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/448829v1

    The spread of this ancestry must have been due to mammoth hunters following herds. See this paper – and especially figure 3 – on the spread of different mtDNA clusters of mammoths over time.

    https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rspb.2013.1910

  63. slumber_j says:
    @Anonymous

    Maybe sixteen years ago, my half-WASP, quarter-German, quarter-Hungarian wife submitted a portrait to a website that purported to be able to divine ancestry from facial features. Her extremely Asian-shaped eyes must be the only thing that accounted for the website’s verdict: “100% Korean.”

  64. @Rosie

    The Magyars who make up the bulk of today’s Hungarians migrated from way up north roughly 1,000 years ago. Their language is related to Finnish.

  65. @BB753

    There are two types of people: those who approve of Steely Dan and those who were born too late. On the other hand if you’re a fanatic you’re kind of missing the point.

    The Ramones are Steely Dan on ART.

    • LOL: BB753
    • Replies: @BB753
  66. For what it’s worth, here is linguistic analysis from Mario Pei’s 1962 The Families of Words, written for a general audience:

    The original speakers of Indo-European are s8pposed to have lived in northern Europe, around the shores of the Baltic, though of that we do not have absolute proof. An earlier theory was to the effect that they lived on the Iranian plateau, in western Asia, and moved westward in successive waves, save for the group that moved southeastward into India. What led people to prefer north central Europe as a hypothetical original habitat for the early speakers of Indo-European was the fact that all or most of the branches hold in common certain words for plants, animals, and minerals that exist in north central Europe, but not other words denoting objects existing on the Iranian plateau or in northern India. For example, most of the early Indo-European languages show native developments of the same original root for birch, beech, willow, ash, wolf, bear, goose, horse, dog, gold, silver,
    but not for palm, olive, vine, laurel, tiger, elephant, lion, leopard. [p. 5]

    Near the Baltic, maybe, but on the Baltic doesn’t sound right. There is the beech/beach dichotomy, where the word for the tree is quite consistent across the entire Indo-European family, but terrms for the sandy shoreline are quite varied and unrelated, suggesting the mobile Indo-Euros were winging it at the strand.

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
  67. @Yngvar

    The Hungarians are Slavs like their neighbors, they’ve just adopted a new language.

    That’s been said about the Prussians as well. It kind of makes sense. They seem different from other Germans.

  68. BB753 says:
    @Desiderius

    Though they were active long before my late teens, I’m more of a Creedence Clearwater Revival type of guy.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  69. @JohnPlywood

    That’s very interesting! So the thick coarse hair started in Europe, too, huh. I’ve known European people with hair that seemed very similar to Asian hair in texture and the way it grew, and most of them were blonds.

  70. MEH 0910 says:
    @BB753

    Are you sure Steely Dan is a Steve Sailer Approved® band, like The Ramones or Led Zeppelin?

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/mel-gibsons-new-police-brutality-movie-is-a-vile-racist-right-wing-fantasy/#comment-2502303

    Steve Sailer says:
    September 6, 2018 at 1:31 am GMT

    Steely Dan could produce lyrics that make sense if they chose — like the solo song IGY, a salute to the late 1950s International Geophysical Year. Most of the time, though, I have no idea what’s going on.

    • LOL: BB753
    • Replies: @MEH 0910
  71. Anti-HBD says:
    @backup

    How does this paper make your point?

    Here, using recently described haplotype-based techniques [11], we present the results of a systematic survey of recent admixture history across Western Eurasia and show that admixture is a universal property across almost all groups. Admixture in all regions except North Western Europe involved the influx of genetic material from outside of West Eurasia, which we date to specific time periods. Within Northern, Western, and Central Europe, admixture tended to occur between local groups during the period 300 to 1200 CE. Comparisons of the genetic profiles of West Eurasians before and after admixture show that population movements within the last 1,500 years are likely to have maintained differentiation among groups. Our analysis provides a timeline of the gene flow events that have generated the contemporary genetic landscape of West Eurasia.

    First of all that is still a lot of admixture.

    Then, they are not formally testing for gene flow, unlike the paper the article is based on.

    Not to mention that there was already East Asian admixture in Europe as this paper points out: (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2018/03/31/292581.full.pdf)
    Namely the Western Siberian Hunter gatherer component in the EHG who gave ancestry to the Steppe populations that apparently invaded Europe 5000 years ago.
    ( Unless I am understanding something wrong, ancient DNA is not my forte)

    • Replies: @backup
  72. @Red Pill Angel

    Slanted blue eyes are not typically Russian. That would be something you find in the Udmurts.

    Typical Southern/Central Great Russians are not that different from Poles, and the northern Russians not that different from the Finns.

    The Uralic ethnics are a very different ball of wax. They are quite mixed. There you get those slanted eyes together with blond or red hair, very white skin, and blue eyes.

  73. MEH 0910 says:
    @MEH 0910

    Babylon Sisters

  74. Corvinus says:

    “European race versus an East Asian race”

    You meant to say European and Asian populations, Mr. Sailer.

  75. @Kibernetika

    Why on Earth do the Rutgers University Press classify a book by a Frenchman about the Eurasian Steppe under “American Studies?!”

    • Replies: @Kibernetika
  76. @International Jew

    He doesn’t look so much like a member of a particular ethnic group so much as mentally retarded or insane.

  77. @BB753

    Yeah, but you never knew when they might just mount up and ride through Donald Fagen’s shtetl. At least with The Band there was no doubt they were faking that shit. Credence stepped way too close to the Skynyrd line for the bien pissants to handle.

    • LOL: BB753
    • Replies: @BB753
  78. @Stebbing Heuer

    I found the Uzbeks to be almost completely Turkic-Arab. The men reminded me, in dress and appearance and manners, of the Lebanese men who lived in my neighbourhood when I was growing up.

    For a truly mixed people, Kazakhstan is the place.

    Borat always struck me as much more Uzbek than Kazakh.

    ? We need to talk.

  79. @Autochthon

    Why on Earth do the Rutgers University Press classify a book by a Frenchman about the Eurasian Steppe under “American Studies?!”

    Autochthon, it’s an old work. God knows how many editions there’ve been since the original French publication. I read it first in the 1980s in translation.

    Who today can honestly expect publishers and web developers to understand that Grousset was a French academic and specialist in what we now label Eurasia?

    I’m no francophile, but they have a long history of scholarship in the East. Hell, look at their colonial stuff, etc.

  80. backup says:
    @Anti-HBD

    How does this paper make your point?

    As the part you quote shows, there was according to this paper only local admixture in Northern, Western, and Central Europe during the period 300 to 1200 CE.

    Then, they are not formally testing for gene flow, unlike the paper the article is based on.

    No it’s based on haplogroups. However, the Qin et al paper bases its formal stats on different affinities as measured against Dai, on account of Dai showing the lowest F4 stat. The assumption is that this is due to the fact Dai are the most unadmixed group. This would be very easily checked with old samples: If the gene flow is recent f4(Mbuti, EEF; Dai, Han) should be positive.

    Namely the Western Siberian Hunter gatherer component in the EHG who gave ancestry to the Steppe populations that apparently invaded Europe 5000 years ago.

    The issue is that ANE is formally on the European cline, with a third Tianyuan. With the split between ANE and the rest being 38,000 years old.

    • Replies: @Anti-HBD
    , @backup
  81. Anti-HBD says:

    As the part you quote shows, there was according to this paper only local admixture in Northern, Western, and Central Europe during the period 300 to 1200 CE.

    For those dates, the admixture described in the paper makes sense.

    This would be very easily checked with old samples: If the gene flow is recent f4(Mbuti, EEF; Dai, Han) should be positive.

    Has anyone checked this? Are you suggesting that this gene flow is partly an artifact of using Dai as a basal East Asian population or that it was older?

    The issue is that ANE is formally on the European cline, with a third Tianyuan. With the split between ANE and the rest being 38,000 years old.

    So ANE is 30% Tianyuan then? Would that not make Europeans partly East Eurasian?
    And what about the extra gene flow from Western Siberian Hunter Gatherers with 20% East Asian as described in the paper? Does gene flow from them not impact Europe?

    • Replies: @backup
    , @backup
  82. @Yngvar

    Whoa! Hungarians are no more of Slavic origin than the Irish are of North Germanic-Scandinavian ( read “Viking”) origin notwithstanding the place names of Scandinavian origin (“Wexford” for example translates roughly to “West Fjord”). Both no doubt intermarried with those respective groups (and, in the case of Hungarians, also with Germans). The language of Ireland is of Celtic, Indo-European origin. In like manner, the Hungarian language is a Uralic language, related to Finnish, and is not Indo-European.

  83. BB753 says:
    @Desiderius

    Well, Robbie Robertson, leader of The Band was half-Jewish.
    Are there conspiracy theories about Lynyrd Skynyrd’s plane crash?

  84. Bliss says:
    @Hodag

    A great example of truly mixed people are the Uzbeks.

    They could pass for tri-racials from Puerto Rico, Mexico, Colombia, Venezuela, Brazil or any country in the Americas.

    So HBDers, what race are all these mixed race people? I have yet to hear a reasoned response to this question.

    Quite like how you all turn a blind eye to the fact that black-americans have higher IQ than all the “white Caucasian” nations of MENA, such as Iran, Lebanon, Syria etc.

    • Replies: @FvS
  85. Anti-HBD says:
    @backup

    Sorry, forgot to reply directly to you before. In any case, please see my comment above (comment 86)

  86. @Reg Cæsar

    The same argument has been applied for the Caucus because of words like Apple and words for sheep herding as well as those on your list. The fact that Anatolian PIE does not have horse and wagon words suggests sheep herders moving from Anatolia to the steppes (Khavlinsk specifically) where they domesticated the horse, invented the wagon and cart. The chariot however came later.

  87. FvS says:
    @Bliss

    White means European caucasoid. All whites are caucasoid, not all caucasoids are white.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  88. Bliss says:

    Russians inherited significantly more genetic material (>12%) from ancestral EAS, which is consistent with their historical record of admixture with Mongolian populations.

    To the “aryan” nazi race realists that mongolian admixture made the Russians “subhuman”, fit only for extermination or enslavement. Fortunately, the untermenschen of the Soviet Union crushed the fake aryan invaders in WWII.

    What’s funny is that Hitler and his Nazis are popular in Mongolia. They look down on the Han Chinese for being even more mongoloid than themselves.

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2010/08/02/the-rise-of-mongolian-neo-nazis

    Nazism has found an unlikely home in Mongolia, where ultra-nationalist groups such as Tsagaan Khass, or White Swastika, are initiating attacks on Chinese locals in a bid for ethnic purity. “Adolf Hitler was someone we respect. He taught us how to preserve national identity,” said Tsagaan Khass’ 41-year-old co-founder, who calls himself Big Brother. The group uses the “Sieg heil” Nazi salute, the swastika, and various other Nazi symbols to illustrate their cause. It’s an especially startling development since, under Hitler, Soviet prisoners of war who appeared Mongolian were executed.

  89. FvS says:
    @Anti-HBD

    Russia is a big place, but even if that 13% number was uniform among the population (which it isn’t), they would still be considered white under the old Spanish casta. The 13% number in Finland comes from the Saami peoples. Your average Finnish person does not have that much. Estonia is at about 1-5%. Hungary has barely any East Asian at all. The Orkney Islands are not representative of the rest of Europe.

  90. FvS says:

    So HBDers, what race are all these mixed race people?

    You answered your own question.

  91. Bliss says:
    @FvS

    White means European caucasoid.

    No it doesn’t.

    By definition of the US Census Bureau the people of the MENA region, Arabs, Persians, Berbers, Kurds etc belong to the “white caucasian” race.

    Black American IQ is higher than the IQ of all the white MENA nations.

    The average “white IQ” is not 100 as HBDers claim, which is a brazen lie. It is closer to 90 which is the average global IQ. That means white IQ is about a standard deviation lower than East Asian IQ (105).

    Here’s a glaring example that makes a mockery of white supremacy: the national IQ of Lebanon (the whitest MENA nation) is 79 which is 29 IQ points lower than the national IQ of non-white, multi-racial Singapore.

    • Replies: @FvS
  92. FvS says:
    @Bliss

    The US Census Bureau is wrong. White has always meant European, and its usage in that way predates the US Census Bureau adding MENAs to the list in 1943. If the U.S. government decided mestizos were white on the census, that wouldn’t make them white in reality. Arabs know they aren’t white which is why they are trying to add a MENA category for themselves. Osama bin Laden was not a white man and to claim otherwise is absurd.

    Furthermore, if you want to include all caucasoids in the average “white” IQ score, you would have to include all mongoloids in the average East Asian IQ score for it to be a fair comparison. Those country IQ numbers are all screwed up anyway, unless you really believe Italy (no offense to Italians) has the highest average European IQ and a lot of African populations are really that ridiculously low. And for the record, I’d rather live in Lebanon over Myanmar or some of those other Southeast Asian countries. But that’s just me. It would be interesting to compare the average IQ of Beirut to Singapore, rather than the entire country of Lebanon. After all, “multi-racial” (almost all mongoloid) Singapore is nearly 100% urban.

    First paragraph.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_people

  93. backup says:
    @Anti-HBD

    Has anyone checked this? Are you suggesting that this gene flow is partly an artifact of using Dai as a basal East Asian population or that it was older?

    I just did. Every early farmer yields a Z score under |Z| < 1.5. So I guess it is an artifact. What is the case though is that there is a very significant difference between Han Chinese and Dai with regard to affinity to Baikal early neolithic HGs.

    Do take note that there weren't ancient samples known back then.

    So ANE is 30% Tianyuan then? Would that not make Europeans partly East Eurasian?

    Tianyuan admixted 38,000 years ago, at which point the split was only recent.

    And what about the extra gene flow from Western Siberian Hunter Gatherers with 20% East Asian as described in the paper? Does gene flow from them not impact Europe?

    That gene flow is trivial at best.

    • Replies: @Anti-HBD
  94. backup says:
    @Anti-HBD

    Another stat would be to see if farmers show greater affinity to Hn when compared to the neolithic Devils Gate samples. The steppe was an insurmountable barrier without horses and therefore neolithic samples must have been pristine if recent European gene flow affected modern Han.

    The stats show no difference. I think that is the death knell for the theory. So now we’re left with the question what it was what caused the f4-stats in the paper.

    • Replies: @Anti-HBD
  95. backup says:
    @backup

    Namely the Western Siberian Hunter gatherer component in the EHG who gave ancestry to the Steppe populations that apparently invaded Europe 5000 years ago.

    You are mixing up WSHG, which is a neolithic population and didn’t leave ancestry in the overall West-Eurasian population and ANE, which is a paleolithic population which left ancestry in West-Eurasians via EHG.

    WSHG is part ANE, but that’s all.

  96. Anti-HBD says:
    @backup

    just did. Every early farmer yields a Z score under |Z| < 1.5. So I guess it is an artifact.

    You can test ancient genomes?

    Tianyuan admixted 38,000 years ago, at which point the split was only recent.

    So the Tianyuan component in ANE is 38,000 years old? And they received no admixture afterwards? Is that not a too prolonged period of (at least mostly) isolation?

    That gene flow is trivial at best.

    It is there at the cline map, the author of the study posted in his twitter (I accessed that via the biorxiv page) There seems to be an arrow indicating bidirectional admixture WSHG to EHG.

    And I think Fu et al 2016, also showed some East Asian affinity of individuals belonging to the Villabruna cluster.

  97. Anti-HBD says:
    @backup

    The stats show no difference. I think that is the death knell for the theory. So now we’re left with the question what it was what caused the f4-stats in the paper.

    If they show no difference then most likely it is some Southeast Asian ancestry (perhaps Onge related) in the Dai or African admixture in the French.

    • Replies: @backup
  98. backup says:
    @Anti-HBD

    Yep something like that. I reckon the first

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/dna-analysis-suggests-contemporary-southeast-asians-derive-ancestry-four-ancient-population-180969603/

    You can test ancient genomes?

    The tools are online available, open source and build without issues on Linux. Almost all datasets are available as well.

    https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/software
    https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/datasets

    If you don’t want to dive that deep into this there Eurogenes G25 to play with.

    Have fun!

    • Replies: @Anti-HBD
  99. Anti-HBD says:
    @backup

    The tools are online available, open source and build without issues on Linux. Almost all datasets are available as well.

    I do not have Linux but thanks I will check it out.

    I reckon the first

    Since you seem to know of ancient DNA I’d appreciate if you could answer 2 questions I have:

    1. Do you think unlikely that there is significant African ancestry in Europe? Certain papers seem to suggest there is for example https://www.pnas.org/content/116/5/1639

    2. Are there not any other sources which could have mediated East Asian ancestry to Europe? Neolithic Iranians or CHG perhaps? If the East Eurasian in ANE is more than 35000 years old, then why does it appear so prominently in later samples? Unless the initial West-East divergence was further back.

    Because it seems to me that ancient DNA is suggesting greater degrees of isolation (at least in North Eurasia) that one would expect when we know reticulation was common. Unless I am misunderstanding something.

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