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From the NYT:

Harvard has testified that race, when considered in admissions, can only help, not hurt, a student’s chances of getting in.

 
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  1. I am a very Liberal person and in my frank opinion is that Affirmative Action should be abandoned.
    It is absolutely nonsensical.
    Moreover, Majority of the people on Mr. Sailer’s blog are Conservatives and a few are hard core Racists as well who will agree with me on this as well.
    I view Socialism as High taxes, huge government, clogged markets, a weak church, strict gun control, and sexual license of all kinds. There’s Scandinavia.
    I think CONSERVATIVE societies look like this
    A traditional, religious, free-market society with small government, low taxes, and no gun control, where same-sex marriage is illegal, and abortion, divorce, prostitution, and illegitimacy are scorned? There are such places: the tribal areas of Pakistan and Somalia.
    Chose Wisely : CONSERVATIVES.

  2. ‘Harvard has testified that race, when considered in admissions, can only help, not hurt, a student’s chances of getting in.’

    Something’s wrong when a major intellectual institution can make such a necessarily nonsensical statement. It shouldn’t be necessary to point this out, but since everyone is of some race, considering race could have no net effect overall on the average chance of being admitted. Either (a) what race one is would make no difference, or (b) being of some preferred race would help, and therefore, not being of one of those preferred races would hurt. It’s a zero-sum game.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    , @Anonymous
    , @MikO
    , @Olorin
  3. Harvard has testified that race, when considered in admissions, can only help, not hurt, a student’s chances of getting in.

    Are Harvard’s lawyers and administrators such dullards that they don’t see why this contention is, as the kids like to say, extremely logically problematic, or are they fully aware of its absurdity and merely trying to obfuscate the facts in the hope that most people are too simple-minded to catch on?

  4. Barnard says:

    I was wondering when this trial first started and Harvard said they didn’t want to divulge trade secrets if they were really naive enough to think applicants don’t already know how to game the system. Sounds like the answer was yes.

  5. Coemgen says:

    It is logical because the NYT is speaking to non-”deplorables” only.

  6. Coemgen says:

    It is logical because the NYT is only speaking to non-”deplorables.”

  7. J.Ross says: • Website

    This is a logical conclusion of affirmative action and the frame that race (when causing negative effects) does not exist.

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
  8. Bubba says:

    Admission to Harvard is a zero sum game. Admitting that race helps one’s chances of acceptance means that race hurts another applicant.

  9. Tiny Duck says:

    It’s like you guys don’t get white supremacy and privilege

    The willfully ignorance makes me sick

    • Troll: Mr. Rational
  10. Anon7 says:

    Funny story, when a friend of mine was stuck on a committee reviewing medical school applications about 20 years ago, he was describing how you’d get an extra point if you were black and an extra point if you were female and so on.

    I joked that it would be less paperwork to just subtract a point from white make candidates, but no one laughed.

    So Harvard is right, race can only help.

    • Replies: @FO337
    , @Dr. X
  11. Why didn’t you quote more of the article? Looks like those slick Havahd lawyers play 3D chess better than team Asian supremacist. Also focusing on absolute standards probably will fail against the recipe of relative standards plus secret evaluation categories. Taking it all too seriously detracts beaucoup points it seems….

    • Replies: @European-American
  12. Good thing a Harvard Admission Ticket isn’t a zero-sum thing!

    • LOL: Bubba
  13. Tiny Duck says:

    How does it feel? Knowing that super progressive Beto O’Rourke will be a senator from Texas?

  14. Anon[409] • Disclaimer says:

    Not exactly a balanced article.

    It’s interesting that Harvard admits duller (relatively speaking … it’s Harvard after all) applicants because they have duller, less successful parents, and thus must not have had the childhood upbringing and opportunities to release their inner genius, which they will at Harvard, as will certainly be shown on their greatly increased “exit exams” like the LSAT and MCAT … oh, wait …

    • LOL: Mr. Rational
    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
  15. Jack D says:

    I’ll repeat my comment from the other thread:

    As unbelievable as that sounds, that’s the entire intellectual justification for AFFIRMATIVE action. Get it – it’s “positive” discrimination, not like old fashioned racist kind of “negative” discrimination. It’s not like we are taking off 100 points from the SAT score of every white and 200 points off of every Asian kid. No, not at all, even though it might seem that way if you compare the scores of applicants across races. We just treat being black as a little “plus factor” like being on the marching band or student counsel. We just give them a little leg up in order to create a diverse class. Nothing wrong with that – the Supreme Court has so ruled. It’s not as if the # of seats at Harvard is limited and this is a zero sum game.

    The question is whether the proponents really KNOW that they are being totally dishonest and are just trying to pull the wool over the judges’ eyes or whether they are really that dumb themselves? William Lee sounds like a total Uncle Tom (what is the Chinese version of Uncle Tom?) but no dummy.

  16. Did they move Harvard to Lake Wobegon, “where all the children are above average”?

  17. Cato says:

    Wow! My daughter is applying right now! She calls herself White. That will help her, right? Oh, wait, maybe when they say that race will only help, they mean that the RIGHT race will only help. Sorry. Don’t think we are the RIGHT race. In fact, we are unfortunately the WRONG race. Yeah.

    Upside of all this: kinda makes one understand how fucked the world was before Brown vs. Board of Education.

    Downside: Blunt-puffing Malia gets the spot that my National Merits don’t.

  18. Lagertha says:

    What?!? help? After reading the entire article, I learned nothing new since 12 years ago, when the big change/admissions Kabuki theater started. But the spin…the spin of trying to come off as earnest was just hilarious.

    The unctuous admissions talking heads were soooo desperate to say they champion the sons and daughters of Deplorables in small-town, USA – yeah, right. Money talks; and blacks, Latinos, or poor kids from Viet Nam are chosen more often over intellectually gifted suburban or urban East Asians and Christian whites, including rural kids. Like I said earlier, athletes get it, so the white quota can be covered with Lacrosse, tennis, crew, field hockey, soccer, football, etc. East Asians have poured into fencing & squash, just to get a sport on their resume/application.

    I did like the fact that Harvard admits that MIT & Caltech (well, really only Caltech) get the best picks of people who actually may create industry and wealth…the makers.

    I wish some other ethnic groups had the guts to sue, but who cares, and it no longer matters – it seems they are never gonna say they just pick many applicants because they like them on paper. It’s almost like they scan applicants like Match.com.

    Most bright kids have gotten the message by 2018; and, years later, the top developers, makers, innovators will have come from state U’s and 2nd-3rd tier U’s in far greater numbers than Harvard. Plus, these smart students have no debt since scholarships are substantial from these U’s. The new paradigm is: graduate with no loans – accept the school that gives you the most money. However, I have whined about all this in the past. Harvard is really too boring for smart kids: Zuckerberg, Gates, many others who have dropped out. In fact, many smart kids drop out of top programs – it’s a sign of stealth and prestige, now.

  19. Rosie says:

    Jack and Uilleam are right on. The essence of liberalism may just be the refusal to acknowledge the existence of zero-sum ethnic conflicts of interest.

    • Replies: @Lagertha
    , @anon
  20. Joe Blow says:

    All this policy does is hurt Blacks and Latinos. They will be looked at as the defective underclassman of Harvard. Damaged products!

    • Replies: @anon
    , @Anon
  21. I was going to say (before I read Jack D’s comment*), and still will: It’s a zero-sum game. Even if you admit everyone based on no racial quotas, then add 50 black people at the end, you’ve still screwed over others that would have gotten in under the new total. For every unfair winner there is a loser that got screwed.

    If you help everyone, you’ve then helped no one.

    The scary thing is, the NY Times writers think people will read that line and just accept it. But, I’ll give them this:

    race, when considered in admissions, can only help

    Sure, yeah, I mean, without a race, you wouldn’t be a human, and that can’t be good … though if I had to pick, I’d go for eagle, dolphin, and cheetah, in that order.

    * Oh, and Mr Alban too.

    • Replies: @Bubba
  22. That statement would be true, universally, if “no answer” is totally disqualifying.

  23. It depends upon what the definition of “hurt” is.

    William Jefferson Clinton

  24. Lagertha says:
    @Jack D

    One of my relatives said that the other people on a panel to view/review applications at an Ivy League are not very bright, interesting or even fun. Admissions pays poorly, (unless someone only plays a small role – reading personal essays) so, a full-time employee in Admissions at a university is often a very ordinary person, not a trailblazer, a wunderkind, but someone who nonetheless chooses applicants on a whim – a sort of swiping right or left depending on the vibe – did I mention that a vast majority of admissions people are women?

  25. Lagertha says:
    @Rosie

    Virtue-signaling and Concern-trolling at the same time. People like power.

    • Replies: @Clyde
  26. Lot says:

    Logic? Lewis Carroll was a pedo, so all logicians are pedos. You’re not one of them are you?

  27. Dr. X says:
    @Jack D

    The question is whether the proponents really KNOW that they are being totally dishonest and are just trying to pull the wool over the judges’ eyes or whether they are really that dumb themselves?

    They know they are being totally dishonest.

  28. King Baeksu says: • Website

    If race isn’t real and is just a social construct, why is Harvard reifying race by “positively discriminating” in favor of a suite of racial categories?

    When did Harvard become so reactionary and, dare I say it, racist?

  29. The modern Left is funny: they everything is a zero-sum game, except the things that indeed are a zero-sum game.

    • Agree: International Jew
  30. Some reporters and twitter users are live-blogging the trial. Most detailed one I found is http://twitter.com/ABubbleOffPlumb . Tidbits from today:

    Protocols of Harvard Square over/under unchanged

    SFFA attorneys ask McGrath if Harvard sees when a student checks a box identifying their religion. She says not when they check the box but it is something they see if an applicant writes about it or it comes up in other parts of application.

    SFFA asks if religious diversity is something Harvard seeks too in freshman classes why is it that they don’t see when the box is checked on the common application. She says that choice was made on the advice of counsel.

    This Man Controls The Sulzbergers

    Article that alleged cap on Asian American applicants (which ran in New York Times) is brought up and how Harvard responded to it.

    Hsu’s Error strikes again

    “Judge Burroughs interrupts and asks about the model 4 generated by OIR office. Bever has testified that it’s incomplete because there are many more factors included in admissions. Burroughs asks if it’s incomplete why does it approximate the actual admissions demographics.

    Bever says it approximates the demographics of the admit pool but it doesn’t reflect the actual individuals who were admitted.”

    Bigfoot Still Not Sighted

    “Harvard admissions director on the stand discussing a z-list candidate with her daughter who does interviews for Harvard. …. The mother and daughter discuss a student who “not sure he was terribly strong-though he is a black legacy.”

    Harvard lawyer Lee pointing out that SFFA reviewed thousands of documents from admissions director McGrath and all they came up with 2 emails to her daughter [not related to Asians] and a letter from an elderly alum who said some inappropriate comments about Asians”

  31. @Jack D

    The question is whether the proponents really KNOW that they are being totally dishonest

    They know, buddy.

  32. JimB says:

    Harvard should do what the Catholic schools do. Admit way more kids than they can accept, and register the first 1700 to get in all their paperwork by first class mail only. Chinese and white parents will fly to Cambridge to put their kids registration in a mailbox outside Harvard Yard on the day they get the acceptance letter. Black and Hispanic parents won’t bother, so their kids probably won’t register in time.

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    , @dvorak
  33. Big Bill says:
    @Jack D

    They are playing their Bakke hand. It remains to be seen whether it will still work 40 years later.

    Its like the Chinese. They don’t do “bad” things like placing tariffs on American manufacturers. They do “good” things like giving subsidies to Chinese manufacturers. But the economic effect on sales is identical: More Chinese goods, fewer American goods.

  34. @Lot

    Summoning the spirit of Charles S. Peirce, NOT a pedo, but a logician rejected by Harvard and his contemporary colleagues, heh.

  35. @Jack D

    In other words, the question is whether they are full-blown NPC.

  36. Dan Hayes says:
    @Lot

    Lot:

    Lewis Carroll may have been a pedophile but there is no evidence that he ever carried out any carnal acts. What is surprising is that upper-crust English mothers permitted Carroll to take photos of their undressed prepubescent daughters. Is this just another sterling example of the English establishment’s proverbial reputation for eccentric nuttiness?

    • Replies: @Svigor
    , @Lot
    , @miss marple
  37. Abe says: • Website
    @Jack D

    William Lee sounds like a total Uncle Tom (what is the Chinese version of Uncle Tom?) but no dummy.

    Uncle Tong, among various other formulations I’ve heard.

  38. When it comes to diversity, all the students are above average.

  39. Svigor says:

    “Being a white goy can only help, not hurt, your prospects for advancement.”

    “It’s anudda shoah!”

    Really don’t understand what the problem is; White Nationalists just want affirmative action and positive discrimination for white goyim.

    • Replies: @Steve-O
  40. Svigor says:
    @Dan Hayes

    Apparently the practice was widespread at the time.

    • Replies: @FO337
  41. Clyde says:

    The lead Harvard lawyer is this Chinaman >>> https://today.law.harvard.edu/lecturer-william-lee-elected-to-harvard-corporation/

    And the judge is clipped hair Federally employed lifer Obama appointee who was recently celebrated for ruling to kill off Trumps travel ban. https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2017/01/30/judge-who-blocked-trumps-traveler-ban-known-as-fearless “People know Allison Dale Burroughs as fearless.”

    Summary – This is effete lib on lib action and may the devil take the hindmo….. Forget these oriental outsiders who parachute in here (or their parents did) and abuse the system. I give the edge to Harvard because Federal judge “Burroughs was born in 1961 in Boston, Massachusetts.”

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
  42. Yappyy says:

    It’s kind of like the “fuzzy” everlasting rule for getting a leg up for the higher end jobs in the entertainment industry for actors and writers, producers, etc…

    “It won’t hurt you if you’re not Jewish, but it helps if you are.”

  43. Lot says:
    @Dan Hayes

    Yes that does seem odd, but customs change. These days teens and 20-somethings would never use an open communal shower but don’t hesitate to send naked selfies, the complete opposite of prior generations.

    I think the first trend is a natural result of having more personal space per child because of smaller families and larger houses.

    • Agree: Dan Hayes
  44. Clyde says:
    @Jack D

    William Lee sounds like a total Uncle Tom (what is the Chinese version of Uncle Tom?) but no dummy.

    William F Lee is all over the internet and has a long track record. He got on board Hale-Dorr in 1976 that defended Richard Nixon. Go see Wikipedia etc plus Will F is a Harvard Corporation trustee, also called overseers, amusing with the slave days implications.

  45. anon[419] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    The essence of liberalism may just be the refusal to acknowledge the existence of zero-sum ethnic conflicts of interest.

    Yes, that’s basically it. The Left sees every ethical issue as Good vs. Evil. In reality there are many Goods in conflict with each other, many Evils in conflict with each other, and shifting alliances of Goods and Evils.
    For every Good you welcome in the front door two Evils sneak in the back.
    Real character is the effort to navigate this mess as honestly and reasonably as you can. Liberals will never get this.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
  46. Lot says:
    @Jack D

    “that’s the entire intellectual justification for AFFIRMATIVE action”

    There are plenty more than that. The best are

    to seek to reverse the results of prior racial discrimination

    to ensure the public funds, college subsidies, and good municipal jobs are not unfairly given to one group far out of proportion of their population

    to educate people about the views of people from other cultures.

    The second argument is the best in my view, and why I don’t oppose affirmative action in all cases. They have gotten out of control however, and O’Connor and Kennedy kept trying to tell the left they better dial back AA if they don’t want it killed entirely. They haven’t, so maybe responsible AA policies just aren’t something we can have in America anymore and the Supreme Court will have to force their end.

  47. All you boobs care about is Harvard.

    But thank goodness you haven’t published an article that doesn’t prove blacks are inferior. Because that would be tantamount to, I don’t know, not being an obsessive-compulsive bigot or something. All articles MUST be about blacks being inferior. Or else they are not articles.

  48. anon[419] • Disclaimer says:

    Harvard professors and administrators know their argument is unreasonable, i.e. dishonest. But they don’t care because they believe they are lying on behalf of a moral cause.
    What they are supposed to know as scholars is that being reasonable, i.e. honest, is the primary moral cause. A university that doesn’t put Truth first is a university with too much money and too many political connections.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
  49. Roger says: • Website

    Perhaps the thinking is that race is something that blacks have, but that whites do not. White is not really a race, but the absence of a race.

    I am not sure if Chinese have a race under this thinking.

    • Agree: jim jones, EdwardM
  50. @Lot

    I think the only way AA could be constitutional would be wrt proportional representation within reason. The vengeance motive behind much of the amorphous justification for the various tactics used isn’t even in keeping with how western nations approach justice.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  51. Anon[425] • Disclaimer says:

    California and Maine. ROTFL.

  52. LOL! All their racial categories are above average.

  53. @obwandiyag

    Did you know that your handle is an anagram for “gay, and I bow”?

    • LOL: Kylie
  54. @Lot

    Lol. Right…

    This is the same ol’ Sandra Day who said in 2003 that affirmative action needed only 25 more years to work its magic?

    Those goofy Silent Generation folk… What they lacked in critical thinking, results, and human accomplishment, they made up for with blind faith. The original SJW’s, if you will.

  55. @Lot

    By the original definition of Affirmative Action it was just supposed to be stuff like the NFL’s Rooney Rule where it was about equality of opportunity, but that was back when people thought blacks would be fine if they just got a fair shot.

    That may actually still be the case, but instead of a fair shot they got mismatch.

  56. TangoMan says:

    Harvard has testified that race, when considered in admissions, can only help, not hurt, a student’s chances of getting in.

    The collectivization of Soviet agriculture can only help expand the food choices of Muscovites.

    A student, not all students, Soviet city dwellers, not all citizens.

  57. @anon

    That’s just the motto of the joint, not anything important. Truth got deconstructed a ways back among that set.

  58. @Lot

    The left discovered that the kind of whites who rise to power in this age are difference splitters uber alles, so the optimal strategy is in fact maximal radicalism to pull the middle in one’s preferred direction and that is in fact what we see.

    The Kennedys and Days have no one to blame but themselves.

  59. @Lagertha

    Richard Armour said the Admissions Department is in charge of admitting the college’s mistakes.

    • Replies: @Lagertha
  60. @miss marple

    > Why didn’t you quote more of the article?

    Because Steve’s post is terrifically pithy:

    Harvard has testified that race, when considered in admissions, can only help, not hurt, a student’s chances of getting in.

    It’s a terrifically concise way to illustrate a certain kind of thinking which might have made sense in certain contexts but is now just laughable hypocrisy or self-delusion.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
  61. TheBoom says:

    The reason you get these nitwit arguments from Harvard and the rest of the left are:

    1. They live in a bubble. They never allow themselves to contemplate the other side of an argument. After all the people who disagree are evil

    2. They have to reconcile their own conflicting opinions all the time and can never admit they conflict so become NPC. Iit especially tough at a place like Harvard because they have to pretend they are down with the people’s revolution while serving as gatekeepers who represent the self interest of the ruling class.

    3. The left is a religion. Can you question the role of Mohammed in a madrasa?

  62. @Lagertha

    > It’s almost like they scan applicants like Match.com.

    It’s gonna be great soon, because they’ll be able to say the algorithm did it: the AI machine learning algorithm may need to be tuned, but it’s basically working, and it’s impossible for humans to comprehend, so move along, nothing to argue about here.

    • LOL: Mr. Rational
  63. @JimB

    You understand that “first class mail” isn’t anything special? It is the standard letter of up to 1 ounce for 50¢

    • Replies: @Stan Adams
  64. @Tiny Duck

    Would that be on Bizarro Earth? Or in your fantasy world? Or when you post while on your medication?

    • Replies: @FO337
    , @anon
  65. Perfectly logical. The ones that don’t get in – by definition – aren’t students.

  66. Precious says:
    @Tiny Duck

    It’s like you guys don’t get white supremacy and privilege

    No, we get it Tiny Duck, we do, your evangelizing has made the point many times.

    We just don’t care.

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
  67. @J.Ross

    If reason and vital interests collide, it’s always reason which suffers. – Wasn’t it Marx, who said that?
    And – what exactly are the vital interests here?

  68. Anonymous[341] • Disclaimer says:

    Yep.

    As the Irishman replied to my assertion that ‘tool thieves’ habitually ‘get the shit kicked out of them’ when discovered on construction sites, his classic reply was ‘It all depends on just *whose* tools were stolen’.

  69. Tyrion 2 says:
    @Mike Krauthammer

    You seem to be confusing the inability to maintain honest, complex social organisations with the “free market”.

    Heritage run a list of countries ranked by their level of “Economic Liberty”. This might be taken as a proxy for the most free market by a reasonable person.

    Sweden is placed 15th. Pakistan is 131st. I suppose if you really want to understand US Conservative economic philosophy, you could start by looking at what Heritage defines as “economic liberty”.

    https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

  70. Tyrion 2 says:
    @Colin Wright

    but since everyone is of some race,

    Not everybody is of some colour…

    I do think though, to be fair to Harvard’s lawyers – in a difficult position, they are merely trying to say that it is a bonus in the case of blacks and browns but not a negative if you are Chinese; which is strictly relevant to the case as it is alleging that there is white anti-Chinese discrimination.

    Or broader, that it is not formally considered as a negative during the admissions process.

    • Agree: Desiderius
  71. @Lagertha

    The makers, developers, and innovators generally already come from state and lower-tier private colleges. The people who come from the “top” colleges tend to take over institutions other people created.

    • Agree: Stan d Mute, ben tillman
    • Replies: @Lagertha
  72. George says:

    Since this is about Big H and it’s internal logic I thought this article would be interesting.

    The bad behavior of the richest: what I learned from wealth managers

    The habits of the wealthiest mirror the supposed ‘pathologies’ of the poor. But while those in poverty are called lazy, the rich are dubbed bon vivants

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/oct/19/billionaires-wealth-richest-income-inequality

    Probably the best socialist article I have read in a while.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  73. Moses says:
    @Stolen Valor Detective

    or are they fully aware of its absurdity and merely trying to obfuscate the facts in the hope that most people are too simple-minded to catch on?

    Yes. This. It’s an example of the “Chewbacca defense.”

    From Wikipedia:

    In a jury trial, a Chewbacca defense is a legal strategy in which a criminal defense lawyer tries to confuse the jury rather than refute the case of the prosecutor. It is an intentional distraction or obfuscation.

    Because a Chewbacca defense distracts and misleads, it is an example of a red herring. It is also an example of an irrelevant conclusion, a type of informal fallacy in which an argumenter fails to address the issue in question.[1][2]

    The name Chewbacca defense comes from “Chef Aid”, an episode of the American animated series South Park. The episode, which premiered on October 7, 1998, satirizes the O. J. Simpson murder trial—particularly attorney Johnnie Cochran’s closing argument for the defense.

    In the episode, Cochran (played by Trey Parker) bases his argument on a false premise about the 1983 film Return of the Jedi. He asks the jury why a Wookiee like Chewbacca would want to live on Endor with the much smaller Ewoks when “it does not make sense”. He argues that if Chewbacca living on Endor does not make sense—and if even mentioning Chewbacca in the case does not make sense—then the jury must acquit.

  74. Anonymous[440] • Disclaimer says:
    @miss marple

    I think the only way AA could be constitutional would be wrt proportional representation within reason.

    Jews don’t want us to have proportional representation. Therefore we won’t get proportional representation.

  75. Tyrion 2 says:
    @Anon

    It’s interesting that Harvard admits duller (relatively speaking … it’s Harvard after all) applicants because they have duller, less successful parents, and thus must not have had the childhood upbringing and opportunities to release their inner genius, which they will at Harvard, as will certainly be shown on their greatly increased “exit exams” like the LSAT and MCAT … oh, wait …

    They did this at top UK universities, with exactly the same results. Except it was clearer here as it was found that privileged upbringings in Oxbridge students were actually correlated positively with Finals results, even adjusted for pre-Oxbridge exam results.

    Same A level scoring students would do better on the Finals than their co-scorers, had they been to fancy private high schools.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @res
  76. Another 800 pound gorilla in this is allowing for legacy students. Why is that never a major topic for ridicule and shaming. Why should some Harvard graduate’s underperforming son get ANY extra consideration? Keeping that up keeps affirmative action in play, and rightly so.

    Harvard admins are cast as the self-imposed de facto “rich legacy dad’s” for blacks, and why the fuck not? Leverage shit for underperforming blacks as long as rich legacy dad’s open Harvard yard for their underperforming progeny.

    That’s fair, under the traditional rigid legacy circumstances, isn’t it?

    Why, or why not?

  77. Anonymous[440] • Disclaimer says:
    @Tyrion 2

    Same A level scoring students would do better on the Finals than their co-scorers, had they been to fancy private high schools.

    What is the implication?

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
  78. FO337 says:
    @Unladen Swallow

    Unladen Swallow says:
    October 20, 2018 at 7:09 am GMT
    @Tiny Duck

    Finally. The All-Avian fight I signed up for. It’s about time!

    • LOL: Mr. Rational
  79. FO337 says:
    @Anon7

    It’s logic worthy of Lewis Carroll’s Humpty Dumpty.

    Today’s Harvard!

  80. @Mike Krauthammer

    There are such places: the tribal areas of Pakistan and Somalia.

    Wot? Birmingham UK and Minneapolis aren’t conservative.

  81. FO337 says:
    @Svigor

    No doubt Carroll was ‘edgy’ and may have crossed over a line but I doubt he acted carnally with Alice or any other young girl. Heck, so many things were relatively innocent until recently. Look at the album cover for Houses of the Holy. Page and Plant would be in court for entirely different reasons if they tried that today. Instead it’s just for ripping off other musicians.

    Wiki quotes one ‘Morton N. Cohen’ to the effect that Carroll was into the nasty but also ‘Karoline Leach’ who found convincing evidence that Carroll’s actual target was the girls’ governess. The way we judge these things nowadays is to add up the Diversity Pokemon points of the contestants. Does Leach outrank Cohen?

  82. @ScarletNumber

    His point is that first-class mail is so slow that only the wealthiest and cleverest applicants would be able to get their paperwork submitted so quickly.

  83. @Dan Hayes

    There was a time here in America that prepubescent children ran around in their underwear, as a cheap swimsuit for instance, or even stripped naked and ran around outdoors just because. Nowadays voluntary nudism will get a kid a label like “emotionally disturbed”. Kids were often thrown into the tub together, male and female even, to save time and water no doubt. I imagine this is now problematic for kids over five and of course naked baby photos are passe.

    • Agree: Dan Hayes
  84. “Harvard has testified that race, when considered in admissions, can only help, not hurt, a student’s chances of getting in.”

    What a polite way to say, “Asians and Whites need not apply.”

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  85. Mr. Anon says:
    @Mike Krauthammer

    I think CONSERVATIVE societies look like this
    A traditional, religious, free-market society with small government, low taxes, and no gun control, where same-sex marriage is illegal, and abortion, divorce, prostitution, and illegitimacy are scorned? There are such places: the tribal areas of Pakistan and Somalia.
    Chose Wisely : CONSERVATIVES.

    What you are describing is America in 1960.

    And – no – you are not clever, as you seem to think.

  86. anon[166] • Disclaimer says:
    @Unladen Swallow

    538 gives Beto a 21% chance of winning. It’s not that long of a shot.

  87. Mr. Anon says:
    @Tiny Duck

    It’s like you guys don’t get white supremacy and privilege

    The willfully ignorance makes me sick

    “The willfully ignorance”.

    I understand privilege. It’s a privilege to not sound like a retard – a privilege that we enjoy and that you do not.

  88. Mr. Anon says:

    Harvard has testified that race, when considered in admissions, can only help, not hurt, a student’s chances of getting in.

    Harvard Students should start cheating on their tests, and then claim that “it can only help, not hurt” their learning the course material.

  89. robot says: • Website

    There’s gotta be a backlash soon against the recent overpromotion of on-air black talent (eg in ads and on the weather channel) because the instant feedback from ratings will unmistakably show people tuning out in great numbers– nobody bothers to virtue-signal in private. Which is not to say that there’s no worthy black talent, just that it’s a lot scarcer than we’re currently trying to pretend, and in front of the camera you can’t get by by just faking it.

    • Replies: @Marty
  90. Mr. Anon says:
    @Tiny Duck

    How does it feel? Knowing that super progressive Beto O’Rourke will be a senator from Texas?

    The possibility is not one we can flee from – unlike that traffic accident Beto caused while driving drunk……………….that he tried to flee from.

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    , @Buffalo Joe
  91. Mr. Anon says:

    Logic is a wreat of pretty flowers.

  92. Tyrion 2 says:
    @Anonymous

    For various reasons the students from privileged backgrounds were better prepared for more independent, complex exams and exam preparation?

    Or, the universities are operating an unjustified class based form of affirmative action or a stronger racial form of affirmative action that ended up as a small correlate for socioeconomic background?

    Not sure really…though since fancy schools still sell themselves on their broader and even moral education rather than teaching to the test, maybe they are telling the truth?

  93. @Lagertha

    the top developers, makers, innovators will have come from state U’s and 2nd-3rd tier U’s in far greater numbers than Harvard. Plus, these smart students have no debt

    It will be good that they have no debt, because the Harvard students who became management consultants and diversity czars will still have the ability to terminate their employment.

    Creating value only matters so much

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
  94. anonymous[404] • Disclaimer says: • Website

    Fun fact: New smarty-pants Americans meet old but not super-old rich American dull /nutty offspring at Harvard or other Ivy-level. BUT they send their smart kids to Oberlin or Antioch or a college abroad. They in turn send their smart kids to St. John’s or a public Ivy or LAC like St. Lawrence and they in turn send their kids to a state Honors like Geneseo or some experimental college, and they send their kids to a local open college with a good international and community outreach and Honors/online program, St Petersburg College or Ft. Hays being a popular example, or maybe Charter Oak online or UNISA or Puerto Rico if they wish to be completely under the radar.

    The 10th generation upper-uppers are low-income because they have high hard-to-trace assets and so are invisible to government planners and left economists, or have few assets but prestige with unv believable networks and thus power. They get welfare or a small pension, live modestly, and hide in plain sight to be ‘close to the people.’ The super-smart ones have a home-schooled college education by 19, the rest is exploration and network-building. They don’t NEED college.

    Rinse and repeat?

    When you step back from it you see the inter-generation logic and it all makes sense. They see the far-left academics as a vaccine against worse stuff and a way to weed out the wimps and locate their enemies. My advice to young people who’re the college pioneers of their family is to start with a job-ready AS, get a full ride from the college of a rank below their SAT level anxious to have them, get several majors including something else job-ready, and be alert to make fast friends with the unassuming kid with an old name and killer eyes.

    IMHO based on many conversations with unlikely people.

  95. @obwandiyag

    To paraphrase Shakespeare, methinks the commenter doth protest too much. Are we having some guilty thoughts about HBD that we are trying to blame on others?

  96. anonymous[404] • Disclaimer says: • Website
    @Blagity blak

    ‘…Why should some Harvard graduate’s underperforming son get ANY extra consideration? …’

    Because the WHOLE POINT of schools like Harvard is so that:

    1) The duller older-line wealthy kids meet the smart poorer kids with a sprinkling of both from many countries/ethnicities and vice versa

    2) This facilitates mutual investment, inter-marriage, research, political alliances, etc. No duller (or sometimes smart but not hyper-genius) wealthy kids? Then no reason to attend an Ivy or top LAC.

    3) Places for the hyper-IQ like Caltech and to some extent St. John’s where the sole object is advancing social, or deepening personal, knowledge are the exception and more like the ideal I suspect you have in mind. Thus Ivies resisted Jews until word came down Jews had proven themselves (as the Irish, etc. had before them) and so to make pals with them and let them play elite for a while. The same is now happening to Asians, though complicated by the fact that many Asians cheat to get in hence the wildly off % numbers (But Asians do understand the point of Harvard: Make pals with influential US families).

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    , @NOTA
  97. Coemgen says:
    @Mike Krauthammer

    Leftwing = about 750,000 abortions per year and about 36 executions.
    Rightwing = about 36 abortions per year and about 750,000 executions.

  98. Simon says:
    @Blagity blak

    You’re right about the unfairness of giving extra points to “legacy” applicants. Clearly it aids the argument for affirmative action: If you’re going to confer an advantage on these coddled rich kids simply because their daddies went to Harvard, it’s only right to give poor black kids a boost as well.

    Still, I can think of a couple of arguments — not necessarily persuasive, but at least worth mentioning — in the legacy candidates’ favor. Obviously they’re more likely to become big donors to the university. And I would suspect that, in general, their academic qualifications and SAT scores are superior to those of minority applicants.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @ben tillman
  99. Ed says:

    If intelligence is at least partially inheritable what are the odds the child of one and often two Harvard parents is a dummy? I’m thinking not that great. The last Crimson profile I read of an entering freshman class showed the legacy students had higher mean SAT scores than the class as a whole.

    Personally I don’t think Harvard should admit based on credentials alone like Cal-Tech. Its goal is to educate the elite and leaders. Not merely the next group of engineers.

  100. MEH 0910 says:
    @Mike Krauthammer

    A traditional, religious, free-market society with small government, low taxes, and no gun control, where same-sex marriage is illegal, and abortion, divorce, prostitution, and illegitimacy are scorned? There are such places: the tribal areas of Pakistan and Somalia.

    This passage appears within a sentence in a Jared Taylor piece at American Renaissance in 2015. I can only conclude that Mr. Taylor used a time machine to plagiarize from you. Only one (tiny) duck can be that unlucky.

    “I recognize the duck by his quack”.

    There has already been an anonymous blogger with the nom de plume La Griffe du Lion. I dub you Le Coin-Coin du Petit Canard.

  101. Hockamaw says:
    @Stolen Valor Detective

    Racism bad, your honor. The defense rests.

    • LOL: Mr. Rational
  102. @Clyde

    So she’s not really a judge so much as an Agent of the Leftocracy.

    Therefore the question before the court is not who is legally or morally right, but does the Leftocracy prefer the corrupt privileges of the education racket and it black/brown favoritism or does it prefer the prospects of the rising Asian minority with the liability re-enfranchising whites?

    To ask the question is to answer it.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Clyde
  103. MEH 0910 says:
    @Tiny Duck

    Mike Krauthammer, is that you?

  104. @Lagertha

    I’ve written here before that I was on a date with an Ivy League admissions officer, and she was pretty much as you describe, except that I would add that she was a big virtue signaler, which ideology she unabashedly put into practice in her job.

    She was not a graduate of the University she was an admissions officer for. She was a graduate of a lower tier university. This is something I find common but rather inexplicable: elite organization outsourcing the recruitment of their futures to lower-tier people. It seems like a sure recipe for decline, yet few want to dirty their hands with recruitment.

  105. Tyrion 2 says:
    @anonymous

    Are you really trying to claim that people would prioritise making friends with the kids of wealthy and influential people over having a marginally better credentialed professor? Oh, the horror of humanity…

    Whatever disgusting fantasies will you think of next? People prefer the same house if their neighbours and neighbourhood will be wealthy and influential? Pass the smelling salts!

    Soon you’ll be telling me that people prefer a nightclub if their fellow nightclubbers will be wealthy and influential…oh, no, no…the worst…

    Making everything political, ruins everything. Just as commodifying everything, ruins everything. There’s room for both and they are not equally bad, but not everything benefits from a profit driven pricing mechanism and not everything benefits from a politically administered “fairness” formula. Indeed, most of the really important things in life are strangled by both.

    Social relations can be negotiated through other means. It is just complicated to describe. Like how one decides how to share one’s life responsibilities with one’s spouse.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  106. El Dato says:

    OT: Amazing events in our truthy times

    https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/410564-christine-blasey-ford-nominated-for-distinguished-alumna-award

    Ford was nominated for the award by a professor at University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill, where she earned an undergraduate degree in experimental psychology in 1988.

    In a letter obtained by The Hill, Jennifer Ho, a professor in the university’s Department of English and Comparative Literature, said Ford did “something that was extraordinary” earlier this year when “she told the truth about a sexual assault she experienced when she was fifteen years old at the hands of Judge Brett Kavanaugh.”

    Ho dismissed the notion that her nomination of Ford is “about partisan politics” but said it was more about “recognizing that the simple act of speaking one’s truth, especially when that truth involves sexual assault, is an act of bravery.”

    “We live in a society that does not believe women,”

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
  107. @Mike Krauthammer

    This is just a restatement of Jared Taylor’s “Open Letter to Cuckservatives” from a slightly different angle. Indeed, you seem to have copied some of his verbiage verbatim.

    Do I take this to mean that you concur with Jared Taylor?

    https://www.amren.com/news/2015/07/an-open-letter-to-cuckservatives/

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
  108. There are obvious innate hypocrisies in affirmative action, defending it involves lies and deception. The more people are forced to talk about and defend racial preferences, the more obvious this becomes.

    Many moderates completely agree, but they aren’t passionate about the issue.

    One big proposal, is open admissions. Let all people, of all races, buy whatever classes they want. To use a political buzzword, make education genuinely “inclusive”.

    A related question is financing, what about people who can’t afford it: Get government out of financing education. If there is demand for cheap education, even completely zero cost to the student, it’s quite possible. Many important classes strictly follow a textbook. Many textbooks are available for free download. Normal people want grading, human peers, and human coaches, and society can work all of that stuff out.

  109. Anonymous[527] • Disclaimer says:
    @Colin Wright

    In a way, Harvard has a point, because we are only supposed to give a damn about NAMs. They basically just didn’t spell it out well enough.

    A better fleshed out Harvard explanation is that, not including students who belong to races where other people in their race tend to be smart and talented so that makes those students unfairly privileged, that race only helps students to get in, not hurt.

    Of course, if they said that, it’d just reveal how irrational and unfair the system of admissions and ideology they uphold are. So we’re left with happy talk while omitting major premises. Which seems to pass as logic for NPCs.

    • Replies: @ben tillman
  110. Christo says:
    @Cato

    It would help if she got stuck in a darkened rooms on Saturday. But since it does not happened to you it must not happen to her either.

  111. Anonymous[236] • Disclaimer says:
    @Stolen Valor Detective

    Some of both. On the public relations side, it is the latter. But maybe for jurisprudence purposes it is the former – they are trying to set up the legal case that Harvard doesn’t have discriminatotry intent, as opposed to effect, which might be some distinction that matters as it works its way up the courts.

  112. @Cato

    Tell your daughter to do a Dolezal, and let Harvard find the balls to challenge it. They’ll likely assume no self-respecting white person would stoop to such measures. Heck, they might even pay the freight for you.

    Wait! Wasn’t there a movie about this?

  113. @Mr. Anon

    So, Beto is a hard-drinking, hard-driving achiever?

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
  114. @anon

    “538 gives Beto a 21% chance of winning. It’s not that long of a shot.”

    What was Trump’s 538 chance of winning?

    • Replies: @Lot
  115. Jack D says:
    @Lot

    O’Connor and Kennedy kept trying to tell the left they better dial back AA if they don’t want it killed entirely. They haven’t, so maybe responsible AA policies just aren’t something we can have in America anymore and the Supreme Court will have to force their end.

    In their vision of AA, being black was just supposed to be a small “plus factor” and not a massive thumb on the scale. And maybe instead of being only 1 or 2% black as it would be under a color blind system, maybe it would be 3 or 4% black. But Leftists make it impossible to have Nice Things. Instead of a small plus factor, there is a massive difference between black and Asian applicants. And instead of making Harvard 4% black, Harvard has even more blacks than their % in the general population. In other words they were greedy and took the license that the S. Ct. gave them to deviate slightly from the general rule that race discrimination is not permissible and massively abused it.

    So hopefully what will happen is that the S. Court will slap them down.

  116. bomag says:
    @Mike Krauthammer

    Do you really think that the main difference between Scandinavia and Somalia is that one embraced liberalism and the other embraced conservatism?

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
  117. Polynikes says:
    @Stolen Valor Detective

    I don’t their lawyers are. But they’re hoping the judge is.

  118. Tom-in-VA says:

    http://www.jameswebb.com/articles/economic-fairness-social-justice/diversity-and-the-myth-of-white-privilege

    Jim Webb didn’t get far in the 2016 Democratic primary, but he argues that we should dispense with all affirmative action except for poor blacks. I wish Republican candidates would make the same argument, and make it explicit.

  119. Anon[381] • Disclaimer says:

    OT

    Nathaniel Comfort is butthurt that Stuart Ritchie trashed his review of Robert Plomin’s Blueprint in Nature.

    https://genotopia.scienceblog.com/506/lies-damned-lies-and-gwas/

    I don’t care whether Plomin himself, in his heart of hearts, wants to ban public education; he gives ammunition to people who do want to ban it. “Race realists” and “human biodiversity” advocates—modern euphemisms for white supremacy—read this stuff avidly. I watched them swarm around the discussion of my review on Twitter.

    Plomin gives us a simplistic and distorted view of the role of heredity in behavior that causes much social mischief. We can watch some of that mischief in real time as the white supremacist trolls swarm around this debate like yellow-jackets around an open soda.

    Comfort refers to the present moment as a “postgenomic world.” I think this passage is what he is referring to

    We know that DNA doesn’t act alone. Plomin neglects all post-transcriptional modification, epigenetics, microbiomics, and systems biology—sciences that show without a doubt that you can’t draw a straight line from genes to behavior. The more complex the trait in question, the more true that sentence becomes. And Plomin is talking about the most complex traits there are: human personality and intelligence.

    This seems like a classic move-the-goalposts tactic. They are losing on the genetic research front, but hey, it’s all epigenetics anyway, so who cares. GWAS is a lie, he says in the post’s title. Just to be double safe, he’s also doing rear guard attacks like “IQ’s reputation has become pretty tarnished in recent years.” So it’s back to IQ is fake, IQ tests only measure how you do on IQ tests, etc., etc.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
  120. Adr says:

    Some applicants have more race than others..

  121. @Tyrion 2

    I can see the weasel lawyer logic here but it strains credulity. You’re walking into a used car auction and as you walk in you notice that the organizers are handing $10,000 cash to everyone wearing green shirts. Have people in other color shirts been harmed in their ability to buy a car at this auction?

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
  122. MEH 0910 says:
    @Almost Missouri

    Mike Krauthammer = Tiny Duck

    Two-Timer Date

    Character schedules dates with two different people at the same time. “You can’t be two places at once,” the character’s friend says. Rather than doing the sensible thing and cancelling one of the dates, the character tries to keep both, going back and forth between the two dates without letting either know what’s going on.

    Can also apply to other scheduling conflicts, where the character tries to juggle an event that he’s responsible for attending, versus a more personal event that he really wants to attend.

    If one of these scenes has a dress code of some form, expect a character to be caught wearing the outfit for one event at the other.

    Compare Twin Switch.
    ……

    The Family Ties episode “Double Date” is based around Alex, this trope, and a school dance. The deception hinges on him keeping the colour of the carnation in his buttonhole straight. Alex’ two dates were played by pre-The Lost Boys Jamie Gertz and pre-Space Balls Daphne Zuniga.

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
  123. Dr. X says:
    @Anon7

    Funny story, when a friend of mine was stuck on a committee reviewing medical school applications about 20 years ago, he was describing how you’d get an extra point if you were black and an extra point if you were female and so on.

    That’s in direct violation of the Bakke decision, but I guess they just DGAF.

    • Replies: @Lowe
  124. Anonymous[236] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D

    So hopefully what will happen is that the S. Court will slap them down.

    This is my hope, so I am puzzled that Harvard is even fighting this rather than settling. Don’t their legal geniuses know that by fighting it they could be setting themselves up to have a potential 5-4 SCOTUS decision which could be used as precedent against any AA in education? Do they know something that I don’t?

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  125. Anonymous[236] • Disclaimer says:
    @Almost Missouri

    Yeah but isn’t the point to get this before SCOTUS? The trial judge’s ruling is just the appetizer course.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
  126. All this attention to Harvard is just strengthening Harvard’s brand, and reinforcing the idea that Harvard is the true mark of « elite ». The funny thing is, when Harvard was more biased towards legacies and less friendly to minorities – back in the 1970s for example, the Harvard (or Yale) brands had far less cachet, at least outside the Northeastern US. If an Asian kid has to go to Williams or, god forbid, UPenn, because he gets bounced from Harvard because of race, he should thank his lucky stars. Maybe he will actually become an interesting person and not a clone.

    • Replies: @Henry's Cat
  127. @George

    Two different sides of the same rent-seeking/finding(!) coin.

  128. @Tyrion 2

    Well said. It may well be that what is most valuable cannot be described (abstracted) at all.

    Too lossy.

    • Agree: Tyrion 2
  129. @Almost Missouri

    Sen Sasse has been noticeably reluctant to dirty his hands with mere legislation.

    Select on the basis of abstract thinking, get people detached from reality. Why it is a surprise is a mystery.

  130. Henry Harpending and Harvard and LOGIC and the anti-White magical thinking from the WASP/JEW ruling class of the American Empire.

    Steve Sailer in August of 2018:

    The late anthropologist Henry Harpending, who spent 4 years doing field work in his beloved Africa, noticed the spread in American academia of African-style black magic witch doctor logic with the insistence on “institutional racism” and “white privilege”

    Unz Review and Ron Unz have covered the Harvard student admissions question for a long time now. I remember Pat Buchanan wondering if Scotch-Irish people and ethnic Catholics were getting discriminated against in admissions at Harvard.

    The answer to the Harvard Hates America problem is to tax the Hell out of the 40 billion dollar loot pile in Harvard’s endowment. Don’t forget the 30 billion that Yale has or the big pile of loot — 25 billion dollars — that Stanford has.

    Tax Harvard So Hard That Its Pips Start Squeaking!

  131. @The Alarmist

    No, they want them to apply, just not get in. Harvard’s basically in the fancy nightclub business.

  132. Ed says:
    @Jack D

    Right that is my big issue with Harvard admissions. It’s not so much that they factor race but they do it so egregiously. There’s is simply no way Harvard could fill 14% of its class with blacks without lowering standards for black applicants considerably. The black % should be around 5% which is around the black % of lawyers & doctors in this country.

    As it stands now Harvard has an over representation of blacks compared to the national population which is simply ridiculous based on what we know of black academic performance.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Desiderius
  133. You see, Affirmative Action is a policy of inclusion, not of exclusion.

    Right up there with “Affirmative Action considers race, but only as one factor among many.”

  134. Knox says:
    @Jack D

    Well stated…if affirmative action just doubled the number of Blacks at the top colleges , which would result in Blacks being about 3% of the Freshman at Ivy League schools , there would be far less opposition to affirmative action.

  135. MikO says:
    @Colin Wright

    “…major intellectual institution…”

    My, how far we’ve fallen…http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/education/harvardexam.pdf

  136. @anon

    Especially given that, on election night, they gave Trump a 2% chance of winning. Beto is a shoo-in!

    • Replies: @Jefferson
  137. Bubba says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    If you help everyone, you’ve then helped no one.

    The scary thing is, the NY Times writers think people will read that line and just accept it.

    Now that sums up this zero sum Harvard charade.

    I was shocked to learn a long time ago that the vast majority of regular NYT’s readers were completely uncritical thinkers who believed the NYT’s was gospel. This occurred nearly 30 years ago when the NYT’s front page was relentlessly slandering Justice Clarence Thomas every morning during his nomination – and it was the last time I paid for a NYT’s paper.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  138. Anonymous[125] • Disclaimer says:
    @Simon

    You’re right about the unfairness of giving extra points to “legacy” applicants.

    It isn’t unfair. Harvard has a right to favor its own community members.

  139. @Tyrion 2

    ‘…I do think though, to be fair to Harvard’s lawyers – in a difficult position, they are merely trying to say…’

    I’d say it is evidence of the intellectual collapse of our civilization that not only would presumably reasonably intelligent people advance such obvious nonsense, but that you — who are also at least apparently reasonably intelligent — would attempt to find merit in it.

    • Agree: Autochthon
    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
  140. @Lot

    Child prostitution was rife in Victorian England. Had Carroll wanted sex with kids, it was available. So were naughty pictures.

    If there was a prurient component in his photography, it was so repressed, he doesn’t seem to have recognized it himself.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
  141. Anonymous[125] • Disclaimer says:
    @Ed

    The black % should be around 5% which is around the black % of lawyers & doctors in this country.

    Apparently those lawyer and doctor numbers are the result of dramatically lowered entrance standards for blacks.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
  142. Jefferson says:

    OT but White Supremacist Nazi Sabo uses his White Privilege and his institutional racism to racially oppress Auntie Maxine (that’s how most Black people refer to her) by portraying her as Michael Myers on a Los Angeles billboard.

    Steve Sailer being a native born Angeleno have you seen that billboard yet?

  143. Anonymous[125] • Disclaimer says:

    Grades and SAT scores, when considered in admissions, can only help, not hurt, an applicant’s chances of admission.

  144. @anon

    In the end, AA probably doesn’t change much. It’s just an artificial resume inflator that everyone is aware of.

    But it is necessary to create a supply of ivy-certified minorities which otherwies wouldnt exist.

    By hiring these folks the Liberal Establishment gets to worship two false gods at once: Diversity and Credentialism.

  145. The only way this statement could be true is if the increase the size of the incoming class. Or am I missing something?

  146. Jefferson says:
    @Cato

    “Wow! My daughter is applying right now! She calls herself White. That will help her, right?”

    Your daughter should start self identifying herself as Delaware and Cherokee.

  147. @Peter Akuleyev

    This NYT graphic shows that until the 1980s, Supreme Court justices who hadn’t been to Ivy law schools were as common as not: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/10/08/us/politics/how-kavanaugh-fits-in-among-supreme-court-justices.html

  148. @Mike Krauthammer

    But maybe somalis and pakistanis create different social and economic systems than native US midwestern caucasians?

  149. @Lot

    Logic? Lewis Carroll was a pedo, so all logicians are pedos. You’re not one of them are you?

    Lewis Carroll died a virgin. Adolf Hitler died a virgin.

    Therefore, Lewis Carroll is literally Adolf Hitler.

    As prudish as the Victorians were, childhood nudity was seen as a badge of their innocence, not adult prurience. It’s like the latter were nostalgic for the (imagined) freedom of their early years. Or perhaps other people’s early years.

    Note, too, that the first nudists, based in Germany, were quite puritanical about many things. Most were vegetarian.

  150. Marty says:
    @robot

    Whatever happened to Fred Hicknan?

  151. Jefferson says:
    @Jack D

    You know who else will qualify for affirmative action in the future? All of the Latinos in the caravans from Honduras headed to The U.S even though none of them ever lived through Jim Crow or had ancestors who picked cotton in Mississippi or South Carolina for example.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
  152. @Ed

    If intelligence is at least partially inheritable what are the odds the child of one and often two Harvard parents is a dummy?

    Ever heard of “Gentlemen’s Cs”?

    • Replies: @HEL
  153. Ed says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    Wait Hitler never had sex with Eva? This can’t be true.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  154. Jefferson says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    “Adolf Hitler died a virgin.”

    So Eva Braun put Adolf Hitler in the friend zone. Adolf Hitler never had what it takes to be a Chad as the Incels would say.

  155. OFF TOPIC

    Sailer says England from over a thousand years ago is where it’s at in terms of the importance of unified national sovereignty and the ability of other sovereign territories to resist the projection of English power. English power was derived from its ability to tax the lower orders of the kingdom to make war.

    Some other guy says, or claims, that England’s systematic ability to tax was somehow unique. I dispute that.

    Although the Magna Carta was about taxation and centralized power and taxing lower Norman nobles to raise a large standing army. The lower Norman nobles didn’t think it was so good to pay the Head-Norman-In-Chief big scratch to pay for an army that might reduce their own power and wealth.

    2015 was 8 hundred years from when the Norman nobles made a deal with the King of England to come to some understanding about the concentration of power and taxation and large standing armies.

    Perfidious Albion?

    That’s what jealous people call the place that made being sneaky its major art form.

    The English Are Sneaky, But Predictably So.

    The English Only Trust A Contestation Of Power To Settle Things — That Is Why The English Have Waded Through Blood So Many Times.

    • Replies: @Lot
    , @Almost Missouri
  156. Jefferson says:
    @Coemgen

    “Leftwing = about 750,000 abortions per year and about 36 executions.
    Rightwing = about 36 abortions per year and about 750,000 executions”

    The Right Wing commits 750,000 executions a year? In which country The U.S?

  157. @Blagity blak

    Affirmative Action rankles everyone so much because it is such blatant dishonesty and hypocrisy by the arrogant institutions that promote themselves as our moral and intellectual leaders.

    If Harvard wanted to make an intellectually honest defense of its admissions policy it would have to admit something along the following lines:

    “We are in the business of maximizing the value of our brand to the Ruling Liberal Elite and it’s our business judgment that there is greater consumer demand among this target demographic for a product containing ‘diversity’.”

    “These same consumers will pay double at Whole Foods to get kale that’s certified as “organic.” So they also want a diploma that’s certifed “diverse.” And these consumers also believe that Blacks are more diverse than boring Asians. So its all just good business.”

    • Replies: @Nadir
  158. @Ed

    Dude, Harvard doesn’t set its sights so low as a mere country and hasn’t for 80 years. It is the whole world which cries out for Harvard’s unique brand of leadership, and she can rightfully do no less than heed that cry.

    15% is just the beginning.

    And national is right out. What are you, a Nazi?

  159. Jefferson says:
    @Mike Krauthammer

    “Mr. Sailer’s blog are Conservatives and a few are hard core Racists”

    Too bad there is no statistical breakdown on what percentage of Steve Sailer followers are Alt-Right like Daily Stormer types, what percentage are Alt-Lite/New Right like Proud Boy types, what percentage are Libertarians like Styxhammer, and what percentage are regular Conservatives like Andrew Klavan.

    If I were a betting man I would say the majority of Steve Sailer fans are Alt-Right as in Daily Stormer/Red Ice TV types.

    I’m not Alt-Right, but I’ll watch Red Ice TV once in awhile just to check out the blonde eye candy Lana Lokteff.

    But mostly I watch Compound Media, The Daily Wire, Infowars, The Blaze, Fox News, and CRTV.

  160. @Coemgen

    You neglected all the sex-selection abortions.

  161. AndrewR says:

    OT: Tribe-run CNN shames advice columnist for suggesting that it’s prudent to give American kids American names.

    https://www-m.cnn.com/2018/10/20/opinions/dear-abby-what-you-got-wrong-on-indian-names-hosseini/index.html?r=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F

  162. Nadir says:
    @Mike Krauthammer

    A traditional, religious, free-market society with small government, low taxes, and no gun control, where same-sex marriage is illegal, and abortion, divorce, prostitution, and illegitimacy are scorned? There are such places: the tribal areas of Pakistan and Somalia.

    How about the USA circa 1960?

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
    • Replies: @AndrewR
    , @Alfa158
  163. tyrone says:
    @Mike Krauthammer

    don’t get eaten by a bear Goldilocks

  164. dvorak says:
    @JimB

    The problem for Harvard is, whatever objective or subjective standard they set, Asians will cram for it.

    Even if the real issue is Asian introversion, if Harvard came out and said it, then Asians would launch cram extroversion classes. Similar to ‘executive presence’ classes run for junior management consultants.

    (That said, extroversion and being facile and smooth in conversation is quite hard to fake, even for a 30-minute interview. Try faking a sense of humor, that’s very tough. Thus the laborious in-person college interview process).

    If you make a standard, you’ll kill the quotas.

    The real Harvard quotas are: racial quotas, courtesy admits to harvard-yale-stanford faculty kids (who aren’t dullards anyway), rich/powerful families worldwide, famous families worldwide and legacies. That’s half the admit class. The other half is ‘superstars’ in every area from basketball to viola to activism to research to academics.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
  165. @Jack D

    Harvard has even more blacks than their % in the general population.

    Actually, that isn’t so. People here seem to be taking the percentage of acceptances as the same as the percentage of matriculants:

    Nearly one in six, or 15 percent, of students that Harvard University offered admission to this spring were African-American. But step onto Harvard’s campus, and the student body looks far less diverse.

    In fact, according to the most recent federal data available, just 8 percent of Harvard’s undergraduates are black and just over 9 percent of the incoming freshmen last year were black.

    So what happens between admissions and the first day of classes?

    “They do a good job with black kids, but not as good as with everybody else,” said Robert Bruce Slater, the managing editor of the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education, which tracks admissions and enrollment at colleges.

    Harvard may have a generous financial aid package and a brand that can open professional doors, but high-performing black high school students are applying to multiple top-tier schools and getting offers from most of them, Slater said.

    https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2018/06/13/harvard-more-black-students-admitted-than-enrolled/kD1suLbBm6ZF7Fo8ej0dfK/story.html

    The remarkable fact is how many of the tippy-top blacks get multiple very attractive offers.

    Whenever you read about a student who was accepted to every single Ivy, how often are they blacks? Just about always, right?

    Well, this is how it all comes out in the statistical wash.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  166. @Bubba

    I can proudly say I’ve never paid a cent for that rag, but I would have picked it up to read were I bored at the library or bookstore, say 20 years ago. I know now to let Steve Sailer read it for me. My head is less prone to exploding than that of a leftist, but I don’t want to take any chances.

    BTW, Bubba, about 15 years ago, I made an effort to read the Wall Street Journal, even the extremely boring “Markets”(?) section, as a learning experience. Because of their globalist attitude (though I wouldn’t have use that term back then), incl. support of open borders, I quit picking it up once the price went up by a quarter. Whenever they’d send junk mail to get me to subscribe, I’d write notes about “Fire Al Hunt first!” and “Quit the Immigration Stupidity” on them and mail them back. I’m sure that did a lot of good, when some young Filipina lass saw it at the mail center, haha!

    • Replies: @Bubba
  167. Nadir says:
    @Hypnotoad666

    The last sentence of your post:

    “So its (sic) all just good business.”

    You seem to insinuate that Harvard administrators do not actually believe in affirmative action on moral or ideological grounds, but that they are cynically promulgating a policy that they do not support in order to satisfy their “Ruling Liberal Elite” customers. There are two problems with this theory that I see: 1) Harvard is not only run for the Ruling Liberal Elite, but by the Ruling Liberal Elite; it is likely that Harvard administrators believe in exactly the same things that their “customers” do, and 2) whether or not your theory is true, the only way to effect meaningful change is to delegitimize AA as such rather than merely poking around the margins of the issue by questioning the purity of Harvard’s motives; even if the administrators are shown to be frauds, the RLE will continue to demand AA so long as they continue to believe in it.

  168. @Precious

    Stop feeding the troll.

    If you want to know how to just mark all the trolls “Troll”, HMU at my name with an underscore (no other punctuation) at protonmail.

  169. Lowe says:
    @Dr. X

    It’s not in violation if it’s described as a holistic assessment on their website and internal guidelines. Practically, Bakke allows you to do anything, as long as it can be described the right way.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  170. Lot says:
    @Jack D

    Yes that is what I was thinking.

    Their frustration with the left is also why they let themselves be replaced with the more conservative Alito and Kav, when they might have waited for a Dem senate that would only allowed another moderate. And Kennedy also gradually moved to the right his last 5 or 10 years.

  171. Lot says:
    @Charles Pewitt

    The predator in the 900s wasn’t England but the Danes and Normans.

    • Replies: @Charles Pewitt
  172. L Woods says:
    @Cato

    Segregation was infinitely less unjust than the current state of affairs.

  173. @Ed

    Don’t forget that said mean is hauled down by the SAT < 1200 affirmative-action admits.  The median score would be far more pertinent.

  174. Jack D says:
    @candid_observer

    In addition to those who get better aid packages elsewhere, there must be some who realize that they are in truly over their heads and if they actually attended they would be in deep doo doo academically.

    All of the Ivy League and other top 20 schools are competing for the same very limited pool of blacks. Even with the relaxed admission standards for blacks, there are only around 1,000 blacks each year who crack 700 on either section of the SAT (this is I think around equal to the number of (mostly Asian) 12 year olds who achieve those scores each year to qualify for the Hopkins SET program).

    http://www.jbhe.com/features/49_college_admissions-test.html

  175. @Anonymous

    Yes, but there are so many lib-appointed rotten judges on Federal benches and it can be years before you get to the Supremes and get a decision out of them. In the meantime, a lot of reality can occur.

  176. AndrewR says:
    @obwandiyag

    No one here, TTBOMK, has said “blacks are inferior.” But all the evidence certainly suggests that blacks have a significantly lower median IQ than whites do. That you think that necessarily implies that blacks are inferior is all on you.

    • Replies: @ben tillman
  177. even with this Harvard lawsuit in the news, Ron Unz’s data about who really benefits is and who really gets in with below standard grades is kept out.

  178. Let’s print lots of $10,000 bills and drop them from helicopters: now everyone will be rich!

    Same logic.

  179. Anonymous[339] • Disclaimer says:
    @Almost Missouri

    This is something I find common but rather inexplicable: elite organization outsourcing the recruitment of their futures to lower-tier people. It seems like a sure recipe for decline, yet few want to dirty their hands with recruitment.

    I think the implicit reasoning for this is that the admissions officers are functionaries who only need to be smart enough to execute on the goals of the university leadership, but, and this is key, can’t be smart enough to question those goals. The director of admissions will state that they want applicants who are “unique” and “interesting” and give illustrative examples of applicants with those qualities (e.g., was a summer intern at The Atlantic, spent time on a kibbutz in Israel). The ideal admissions officer will understand this logic without ever questioning it (“Didn’t that Atlantic intern probably just get that position because his father works there?”, “Why isn’t going on a mission trip to Ethiopia with your church just as interesting as the kibbutz?”). Banality is the watchword here.

    • Agree: Desiderius
    • Replies: @Desiderius
  180. AndrewR says:
    @Nadir

    You clearly don’t know much about that era of American history.

    • Replies: @Nadir
    , @Mr. Anon
  181. @Jack D

    there must be some who realize that they are in truly over their heads and if they actually attended they would be in deep doo doo academically.

    The ones able to see that are, tragically, the smartest ones.

  182. @Coemgen

    Can we have 750,000 of both? :^)

    • Replies: @Coemgen
  183. Alfa158 says:
    @Nadir

    You know that is puzzling isn’t it?
    Group A, America in 1960, has one group of values.
    “A traditional, religious, free-market society with small government, low taxes, and no gun control, where same-sex marriage is illegal, and abortion, divorce, prostitution, and illegitimacy are scorned.
    Group B, Scandinavia in 1960, had a completely different set of values.
    “High taxes, huge government, clogged markets, a weak church, strict gun control, and sexual license of all kinds.”
    And yet both groups created societies at the apogee of human civilization.
    Then it gets even more puzzling; Group C, Somalis who seem to share the values of Group A, instead of of creating another society at the apogee of human civilization, created a society which is a shithole.
    What is the crucial difference between Groups A or B versus Group C that would cause the outcomes to be so divergent?
    I’ll need to go off for a while and try to figure that out.
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    Nope, sorry, I’ve got nothing here, I’m stumped.

    • Replies: @Nadir
  184. @Anonymous

    Doesn’t Biff know that George could pull his head out of the toilet and sock him right between the eyes?

    Oh course the bully knows. Part of him is even hoping for it. But it is in the nature of the bully to push until something pushes back.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  185. Nadir says:
    @AndrewR

    Could you enlighten me? Or will your meaning forever remain a mystery?

    • Replies: @AndrewR
  186. @Anonymous

    Chiefs hire indians, braves hire braves.

  187. Nadir says:
    @Alfa158

    I know, it’s a real enigma. It’s almost as if race, religion and culture are more important than political and economic ideology…

    But then again, that obviously can’t be true. After all, we’ve completely assimilated our own African population, and Afghanistan and Iraq have American values now!

  188. @Desiderius

    Oh, and they just hazed the living f*ck out of that fifth vote you’re counting on there. Unless something dramatic changes, they’re good.

  189. Thea says:
    @Mike Krauthammer

    You are incapable of picturing a world outside of the current year. Traditional societies in Europe looked nothing like Pakistan.

  190. anon[322] • Disclaimer says:

    Yep. We know how it goes. Race is only an advantage for Asians when they also happen to “struggle with their sexual identity” or gender, and have to “come out to the community”:

    In summing up Mr. Diep’s personal essay, one reviewer highlighted his “immigrant Vietnamese identity” and that Mr. Diep was “grappling with sexual identity.”

    Advise to Asian males: if you want to get into Harvard, write a tear jerker “coming out” essay for the adcom.

  191. @Charles Pewitt

    I think Steve is sort of right. Only the main country that England was preying on was what is today France, because of the Plantagenet’s ancestral claims there.

    In other words, even though England had the realpolitik ability to project military power abroad, they largely only used that power to prosecute the claims of their royal house. Of course, I’m saying it backwards. The royal Plantagenet house used England to prosecute its ancestral claims. As a side-effect, England became powerful.

    Incidentally, when I say England (or really the Plantagenets) “largely only” projected power abroad in France, I mean in terms of continental Europe, England didn’t (until several centuries later) mix it up elsewhere than France (e.g., Iberia, Low Countries, Baltic Littoral). Obviously, from William on, England was constantly nibbling or chomping away at its Celtic fringe (Wales, Scotland, Ireland), but the Celtic countries were too small in size and too poor of soil to form the kind of counterweight that France could. And since those Celts were more or less the Northwestern terminus of Eurasia, there was nothing much beyond them in terms trade opportunity or frontier expansion, so those conflicts didn’t have the larger reverberations across the continent of England’s cross-Channel efforts.

    BTW, even though England’s conquest of the Celtic Fringe was “successful” in Wales, partly successful in Scotland and sorta kinda successful in Ireland, this came with the ironic result that after 1485 the “English” royal family was in fact Welsh and after 1707 Scottish. And remember that in those days the monarch still had actual power. I mention this because there is a kind of meta-argument to be made that while England’s organization and affluence since the tenth century may have incentivized its eastern neighbors to organize likewise to prevent England growing across the Channel, England’s apparently more successful conflict with its northern and western neighbors which yielded longer territorial expansion also resulted in non-English ruling over the English, which might have had something to do with the Plantagenet/Tudor/Stuart-ruled land coming to a modern nationalist consciousness of itself as “Britain”.

    • Agree: Charles Pewitt
  192. Huisache says:
    @Tiny Duck

    He is neither super progressive or going to win.

    This is Texas we live in

  193. anon[322] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mike Krauthammer

    End all immigration, then we can talk about ending AA. Otherwise, all our top 100 universities will be 100% Asian within 10 years.

  194. @Mike Krauthammer

    This is a classic fallacy and it bears explicit analysis because it is so common (although not at all sophisticated): the writer compares two things on criteria not essential – sometimes not even related – to the point of comparison, suggesting those criteria underly the point of comparison, and wholly ignoring far more salient criteria. It’s really a version of the ole post hoc ergo propter hoc gimmick.

    Mike, you are using mass (in a vacuum) to argue that being massive is unhealthy – “Hey, Orson Welles had a heart attack!” – without accounting for Jason Momoa. It’s really pretty childish stuff.

  195. anon[322] • Disclaimer says:

    If race helps someone get in, it only follows that race hurts someone else, since admission is a zero sum game.

    If liberals understood logic, they wouldn’t be liberals.

  196. @El Dato

    “In a letter obtained by The Hill, Jennifer Ho, a professor in the university’s Department of English and Comparative Literature, ”

    Takes one to know one, IYKWIM.

  197. @Jack D

    “some who realize that they are in truly over their heads and if they actually attended they would be in deep doo doo academically.”

    Colleges that go to extravagant lengths to recruit blacks also go to extravagant lengths to keep them there through graduation. At many “elite” colleges (Harvard, Yale, Brown, etc.) the saying is “the only hard part is getting in”, everyone who wants to graduates. Other elite colleges are genuinely difficult (MIT, CalTech, Chicago, etc.), though they show recent signs of softening.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  198. Mr. Anon says:
    @The Alarmist

    So, Beto is a hard-drinking, hard-driving achiever?

    The term people use to describe him is “Kennedyesque”. And so he is. DWI is pretty Kennedyesque.

    • LOL: Mr. Rational
    • Replies: @The Alarmist
  199. anon[322] • Disclaimer says:
    @Tiny Duck

    Whites aren’t the ones suing Harvard, Asians are. Is there also an “Asian privilege” now? Tell that to the children of Asian restaurant/convenience store/laundromat owners and their workers, who somehow all manage to do better than black/hispanic kids despite growing up in poverty and with parents who don’t speak English.

  200. @Lot

    The predator in the 900s wasn’t England but the Danes and Normans.

    Steve Sailer:

    England became a unified territorial nation-state in the 900s. My guess is that, remote as it was, England was still main driver of the evolution of the modern European state system: you needed a country big enough but enough to resist English predation.

    I believe Sailer is talking about the last 4 or 5 hundred years when he says “…England was still main driver of the evolution of the modern European state system…” in regards to nations resisting English predation.

    Maybe Sailer means the last thousand years or so, the English were always going over the water to have a go at the plunder to be had on the continent. Agincourt and all that stuff.

    I think Sailer was referring to the Anglo-Saxons in the 900s making a deal which each other to knock the Vikings over the head at York and to make the Welsh stop drinking for a day to travel to England to have lunch with the English King to agree on something.

    The 1648 Westphalian System could be said to be the start of modern nations and states.

    The West Coast Offense was first proposed at the Westphalian peace conference, but it was deemed too outlandish to be workable in any known system of state sovereignty. Too many choices.

  201. HEL says:
    @Rosamond Vincy

    Ever heard of “Gentlemen’s Cs”?

    You ever heard of the academic world as it exists now, rather than 70 years ago? Apparently not. Grade inflation is overwhelmingly worse now. But the actually relevant issue, anyway, is what it takes to get accepted now. Merely being a legacy ain’t worth that much.

    Per the Harvard Crimson 2020 class profile: “First-generation students reported having an average SAT score of 2118.1. Students who were not first generation reported averaging a 2257.2.”

    Translation: The average legacy admittee scored at the 99th percentile on the SAT and outscored the average non-legacy admittee. There’s no such thing as a gentleman’s 99th percentile on the SAT. Now, this appears to be a survey, rather than them actually looking at the raw numbers, so perhaps the legacies are lying. Moreso than the nonlegacies anyway. But there’s no reason to believe this.

    Regardless, at least 3/4 of the student body at Harvard scored at the 98th percentile or better. It’s possibly a lot higher than that, but I dunno the precise numbers as they don’t break it down further. This despite the fact that about 1/5 to 1/4 of the student body is made up of underperforming minorities who score at such a level or higher at astonishingly low rates. This doesn’t leave much room for rich white mediocrities.

    The short story is that getting into Harvard is insanely competitive if you are white and even moreso if you are Asian. Jared Kushners exist, sure, but they are incredibly rare. Being a legacy no doubt helps on the margins. It is not even a fraction of the boost provided by being an underperforming minority.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  202. anon[322] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D

    The question is whether the proponents really KNOW that they are being totally dishonest and are just trying to pull the wool over the judges’ eyes or whether they are really that dumb themselves?

    Of course they know race hurts Asians and helps blacks and hispanics. But remember, it’s not a lie if you believe it.
    As for whether they really are that dumb, yes, they really are. Liberals are people who can’t do math, therefore don’t understand logic, therefore dumb. Some are downright mentally ill.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
  203. Mr. Anon says:
    @AndrewR

    You clearly don’t know much about that era of American history.

    How is he wrong? You clearly don’t know much about anything, as make plain with nearly every post you make.

  204. Clyde says:
    @Almost Missouri

    Not gonna disagree. You are very wise to East and West coast liberal shenanigans and coastal leftist-managerial state sponsored corruption.

  205. Polanski says:

    The real issue is that, with few exceptions, blacks have nothing to offer society wrt high cognitive accomplishment. Harvard’s answer to this dilemma is to pretend that the Barack Obamas and Neil deGrasse Tysons of the world are indeed “brilliant.”

    What we are essentially discussing here is the parasitic survival strategy that blacks have been using for 100 years: blame whitey for their failures and coerce the government to “make a just world.”

    Yet no one in the media will ever touch this argument–LOL.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
  206. mutecypher says: • Website

    Because every race is above average.

  207. @Almost Missouri

    But the lowland Scots – the vast majority of the population – aren’t Celts.

    Edinburgh is an English name, not a Celtic one, and Scots is a dialect of English.

    And England didn’t conquer Scotland.

  208. Jefferson says:
    @Paul Yarbles

    “Especially given that, on election night, they gave Trump a 2% chance of winning. Beto is a shoo-in!”

    Betamale Beto is running as an anti-2nd amendment politician in gun loving Texas of all places, he is not defeating Ted Cruz. Texas has not transformed into Virginia yet in terms of a Southern state that has turned blue.

    • Replies: @ben tillman
  209. @Coemgen

    Leftwing = murder the innocent
    Rightwing = execute the guilty

  210. anon[322] • Disclaimer says:
    @Joe Blow

    Exactly. The people most hurt by AA are genuinely gifted blacks, Hispanics and Muslims who could’ve qualified on their own without AA. But now they get lumped in with all the pretenders and assumed to be under qualified AA beneficiaries because of their race/ethnicity. AA stigmatizes entire groups of people because of their race/ethnicity.

    In fact, it’s even worse than that. Since this mismatch effect trickles down, every black and Hispanic college grad is an AA beneficiary, regardless of what school they went to. The assumption is, the more elite the school, the less qualified they are compared to their peers.

    The plaintiffs should make quotes from Jason Riley’s Please Stop Helping Us: How Liberals Make It Harder for Blacks to Succeed.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @ben tillman
  211. Harvard has testified that race, when considered in admissions, can only help, not hurt, a student’s chances of getting in.

    NYT accuracy is suspect here. What did Harvard actually say? Was it trial testimony? If so it is the kind of statement that is the dream of every opponent lawyer: a witness contradicting obvious math. It would have been eagerly and immediately seek-and-destroy shredded by plaintiff’s lawyers, with the shredding reported in some media accounts. As a summary statement of Harvard’s position it would also have been prepped, vetted and coached by their counsel. It would be strange for them to have phrased it so ineptly.

  212. @Mr. Anon

    Mr. Anon, So Beto fled the scene of a drunk driving accident, which is not quite up to swimming away from a drunk driving accident.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    , @ben tillman
  213. tyrone says:
    @obwandiyag

    Blacks being inferior??? come on ,we’re all there on the edge of our seats very four years anxiously watching to see which west african will win the 100 meters.

  214. tyrone says:
    @Tiny Duck

    Sick tiny?? better smoke some more “medicine”.

    • LOL: Mr. Rational
  215. tyrone says:
    @Tiny Duck

    BOOM! 77,000 tickets to Trump (very stable genius) and Cruz rally in Houston .

  216. Anon[257] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mike Krauthammer

    Liberals are the enemies of Whites.

  217. Mr. Anon says:
    @Buffalo Joe

    Mr. Anon, So Beto fled the scene of a drunk driving accident, which is not quite up to swimming away from a drunk driving accident.

    As I understand it, according to the police report, “Beto” did not actually flee the scene of the accident. According to one or more of the witnesses, he tried to do so. So, yes, Ted Kennedy is still the unchallenged champion in the “Kennedyesque” sphere.

    • LOL: Mr. Rational
  218. Anon[257] • Disclaimer says:
    @Joe Blow

    It doesn’t hurt them at all. They slid through and are more courted and recruited for top jobs so their employers can satisfy the affirmative action gestapo.

  219. Anon[257] • Disclaimer says:
    @anon

    Affirmative action grads still get the best jobs and once they have a job are promoted and promoted and promoted.

    They feel embarrassed knowing they are really unqualified and incompetent and depend on their assistants?

    In your dreams. And who cares about the feelings of blacks who have everything given to them when Whites are denied college admission jobs and business opportunities because they are White.
    You must read Natonal Review.

    • Replies: @Prester John
  220. Anon[649] • Disclaimer says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    “Lewis Carroll was a pedophile” has become an Article of Dogma with some Moderns.

    But “Adolf Hitler died a virgin”– not sure I buy it?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  221. @Mr. Anon

    Manslaughter while Intoxicated is Kennedyesque.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
  222. @Almost Missouri

    Modern states are almost always organized around assumptions of territorial nationalism, with one state ruling over one relatively contiguous piece of territory. But medieval and early modern regimes were often organized around dynastic claims. For example, the 16th Century Habsburg Empire included Spain, the Low Countries, and Austria due to brilliant marriages.

    The rulers of Norman England tended to feel they had good genealogical claims to inherit various pieces of the northwestern Continent. And because they had a power base in England that was hard for the Continental powers to strike back at and formed a relatively cohesive territorial nation-state, they could indulge in prosecuting their hereditary claims to chunks of France for, say, a century.

    This eventually led to the rise of a counter-assumption in what we now think of as France that states should be organized by territories and ruled by their own leaders. Joan of Arc told the English that they had their own island so they must go back.

    • LOL: Desiderius
    • Replies: @Lot
    , @Almost Missouri
  223. AndrewR says:
    @Nadir

    Tax rates were significantly higher then, and the government wasn’t all that much smaller, although LBJ and GWB in particular have since overseen significant growths in the size of government.

    • Replies: @Nadir
  224. @nearhorburian

    “And England didn’t conquer Scotland.”

    In fact, one could make a case that the Scots conquered England. Very clever of the Scot nobles to use the spectacular failure of their Darien adventure as a pretext for a reverse merger. To this day, Scots have been overproprtionately represented in British Government and Industry.

  225. anon[322] • Disclaimer says:
    @anon

    A university that doesn’t put Truth first is a university with too much money and too many political connections.

    What a coincidence. Harvard’s motto is “Veritas”, Latin for “Truth”.

    Remember: it’s not a lie if you believe it.

    The end justifies the means…at least for the left.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
  226. Jack D says:
    @obwandiyag

    You have this backward. Affirmative action assumes that blacks are inferior and need extra help as if they were retarded children. Most of us here would like blacks to be treated equally.

    The most racially condescending people I know are Leftists. They view black people as having no agency and they lower their expectations when it comes to blacks and offer up all kinds of excuses for what they openly recognize is black inferiority. And in real life they try to structure their lives so they have minimum contact with any blacks other than Talented Tenth types.

    • Replies: @Nadir
  227. anon[322] • Disclaimer says:

    How about this inconvenient new finding from Inside Higher Ed:

    https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/03/06/elite-college-degrees-give-black-graduates-little-advantage-job-market

    Black students who graduate from institutions like Harvard University are about as likely to get a well-paid job as a white graduate from a less-selective state university, new study finds.

    Employers ain’t buying the con. Check out this salary survey of Harvard grads by race. East Asians top the chart, blacks at the bottom. Employers know Asians who make it into Harvard are the true cream of the crop, while blacks are AA beneficiaries. Probably doesn’t help that majority of them majored in African studies:

    https://features.thecrimson.com/2015/senior-survey/

  228. Nadir says:
    @AndrewR

    Yes, I knew I should have explained the tax rates: tax rates were indeed higher, but overall cost of living was lower – people could raise a family on a single middle-class income. And thanks for noting that government has in fact grown: “LBJ and GWB in particular have since overseen significant growths in the size of government.” (emphasis mine)

    You also do not object to the other ways in which society was more conservative back then; here is Mr. Krauthammer’s original comment: “A traditional, religious, free-market society with small government, low taxes, and no gun control, where same-sex marriage is illegal, and abortion, divorce, prostitution, and illegitimacy are scorned? There are such places: the tribal areas of Pakistan and Somalia.” The obvious problem with what he is saying is that he is blaming the problems of Pakistan and Somalia on conservatism, when the real problems are race, culture and religion.

    Then, of course, there was the rude and condescending tone of your original response. But there’s no need to go into that.

    • Replies: @AndrewR
  229. Clyde says:
    @Lagertha

    Virtue-signaling and Concern-trolling at the same time. People like power.

    Skillfully combined, and you will be an apex passive-aggressive performer. 90% of Democrats are like you describe. Many Repubs too.

  230. @HEL

    You ever heard of the academic world as it exists now, rather than 70 years ago?

    I wasn’t alive 70 years ago, but since I didn’t attend an Ivy League school, I have only general knowledge of how they worked when I was in college, or now, for that matter.

  231. @Almost Missouri

    2nd- and 3rd-tier schools are crueller. They’ll squeeze funding out of the government for students to take “Enriched Math” or “Developmental Writing” (4th-grade computation and grammar) for a few terms, then dump them when they still can’t handle college-girl courses.

  232. AndrewR says:
    @Nadir

    Hahaha…

    Your initial comment was presumably not entirely sincere, but ok.

    I’m not an expert on the history of gun control, but I think it’s entirely untenable to claim the US had none 60 years ago.

    As for Somalia and Pakistan, yes, race and religion matter, but in some ways those societies demonstrate how harmful a complete lack of liberalism can be.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
  233. Anonymous[889] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    I’m pretty sure Adolf was getting it on with Eva before they were formally married, but it was all a big secret.

    Hitler wanted to project a public image of selfless devotion to the state, and a wife and children didn’t square with that. He was only going to marry when the war was over.

  234. @Ed

    She even said he never looked at her like men looked at women. Anyway, they were dead hours after their wedding, so it would have been a notably short honeymoon.

    Supposedly he went to bed with his half-niece years before, but I’m not sure he knew what to do or was able to do it.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Rosamond Vincy
  235. Bubba says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    LOL! That was hilarious!

    You got that right – Al Hunt’s column was always the weekly banal Democrat talking points. And “Al & His Super Liberal TV CNN Friends” were beneath contempt for their kneepad support of Bill Clinton.

    That WSJ editorial page was for open borders even when my Dad read it every day. And I always suspected Robert Bartley was a liberal Democrat dressed as a conservative even before establishment liberal RINO Paul Gigot took over the editorial page in 1997. John Fund was good columnist and he sounded the alarm on illegals voting long ago, but nothing came of it.

  236. @Anon

    Back in 1977 (only a year before the “Bakke”, decision), I worked in the claims department of an insurance company who hired a black to be the head of the worker’s compensation department. He was a nice enough guy but in so far as I could determine, not only did this person know nothing about workers compensation– he didn’t appear to know the first thing about insurance! His qualifications apparently were that he had the requisite amount of melanin and could communicate reasonably well. Sounds like our 44th president.

  237. anon[322] • Disclaimer says:

    How good is Harvard really academically speaking? For all the talk of “nation’s best and brightest”, Harvard’s been failing miserably at producing top scientific and mathematical talents. Of the 49 Nobel Laureates past and present who are either Harvard faculty or alumni:

    https://www.harvard.edu/about-harvard/harvard-glance/honors/nobel-laureates

    Here is a breakdown by field:

    16 medicine
    11 Physics
    7 Chemistry
    10 Economics
    4 Peace
    1 Literature

    Of the 34 Nobel laureates in medicine, physics or chemistry:
    - only 4 went to Harvard as undergrad, and they graduated in 1953, 1949, 1908 and 1900.
    - 10 went to Harvard as graduate students (all btwn 1900-1959), elsewhere for undergrad
    - the most recent Harvard grad to win a Nobel prize in science (physics, 2005) – Roy Glauber, graduated Harvard in 1949
    - the second most recent Harvard grad to win a Nobel prize in science (medicine, 1990), Joseph Murray, went to Holy Cross for undergrad then Harvard grad school in the 1940′s.

    The truth is Harvard undergrad has produced few distinguished geniuses since 1960. Most of the true geniuses in the US went to undergrad in our state colleges and schools like Caltech or MIT. Harvard’s academic reputation is store bought, not homegrown, the vast majority of Nobel Laureates affiliated with Harvard are faculty who went to college elsewhere.

    Majority who go to Harvard undergrad are not the smartest but the greediest, they’re there to chase prestige, so they can go on to a lucrative career in business, law or politics. As Daniel Golden said in his book Price of Admission, less than 5% of Harvard admits are genuine eggheads. Harvard is a wasteland for true geniuses. Even if they graduated in Chem, Physics or Math, they end up on Wall Street as quants. Diversity at Harvard is a joke. They’re only diverse in skin color, underneath they’re mostly a bunch of greedy selfish prestige chasers who are best at playing the game and virtue signaling — like the people who run that school.

    Harvard is only interested in those who have the highest earning potential so they can go on to make a bunch of money then donate generously so Harvard can continue to buy up talent to maintain their prestige. It’s been their business model for as long as they’ve been around.

    • Agree: Bubba, Mr. Rational
    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
  238. Lot says:
    @Steve Sailer

    The English are also different in that they had the fewest and least bloody civil wars after the very bloody Norman Conquest.

  239. NOTA says:
    @anonymous

    The Ivies are largely about educating the ruling class. Both legacies and affirmative action contribute to that goal.

  240. @Steve Sailer

    Agree. Also agree that Joan of Arc was probably the genesis of modern nationalism.

    So the first real feminist was also the first nationalist.

    Also a virgin.

    Also divinely inspired.

    Also pro-2nd Amendment.

    Put that in your pipe and smoke it, Liberals!

  241. @Lowe

    It’s not in violation if it’s described as a holistic assessment on their website and internal guidelines. Practically, Bakke allows you to do anything, as long as it can be described the right way.

    Just like blockbusting is perfectly legal as long as you smile when you call it “celebrating diversity”.

  242. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    Yet we are often told he had syphilis from a prostitute, which would indicate he knew what to do and did it at least once.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  243. inertial says:
    @Lot

    First and Second Baron’s Wars were as bloody as anything on the Continent. Incidentally, the cause of the First Baron’s Wars was the signing of Magna Carta. Everyone always says how wonderfully democratic Magna Carta was but for some reason they forget to tell you that it resulted in a civil war.

  244. @anon

    Agree except for the last sentence. As listed in a recent comment on this subject,

    Old Harvardians: John Adams, T.S. Eliot, Henry Kissinger, Ralph Bunche, John Updike, Dean Acheson, Oliver Wendell Holmes Sr., Henry James, Cotton Mather, Thomas Sowell, George Santayana, etc.

    New Harvardians: Matty Yglacias, Jared Kuschner, Neil de Grasse Tyson, Ellen Pao, Franklin Raines, Bill Kristol, Soledad O’Brien, Al Franken, etc.

    Harvard’s relentless focus on promoting the Harvard brand has led, ironically but not surprisingly, to the hollowing out of Harvard’s former quality.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
  245. @Reg Cæsar

    Lewis Carroll died a virgin. Adolf Hitler died a virgin.

    Therefore, Lewis Carroll is literally Adolf Hitler.

    As prudish as the Victorians were, childhood nudity was seen as a badge of their innocence, not adult prurience. It’s like the latter were nostalgic for the (imagined) freedom of their early years. Or perhaps other people’s early years.

    Note, too, that the first nudists, based in Germany, were quite puritanical about many things. Most were vegetarian.

    So what you’re saying is that all vegetarians are German puritanical paedophile nudist virgins.

    Internet Logic FTW!

    (FWIW, Hitler got plenty of random ‘tang. Kinda happens when you’re the primary focus for all that suppressed Kraut-chick libido and the leader of an explicitly-pagan cult of personality.)

  246. Nadir says:
    @Jack D

    I’m not sure your portrayal of Leftists and AA is quite correct. Their rationale for AA is not that blacks are inferior, but that “structural racism” and “white supremacy” are holding them down; I suppose some may be lying, but I suspect that most supporters of AA truly believe this. You say that Leftists “offer up all kinds of excuses for what they openly recognize is black inferiority,” but isn’t the excuse-making an attempt to deny black inferiority? As for having “minimum contact” with blacks, I think you have it backward; it isn’t that Leftists avoid blacks because they think they are inferior, it is that they deny black inferiority because they don’t have contact with them.

  247. @Anonymous

    Yet we are often told he had syphilis from a prostitute, which would indicate he knew what to do and did it at least once.

    You can get syphilis from either sex. And is your source the same as the one for his purported homophily and monotesticly? I.e., the FDR Administration?

  248. Even though two or three of my stepcousins attended the College of Wooster, I did not know until this afternoon that they were the Scots.

    But it makes sense– they save two letters of paint or bronze or ink every time they spell their name.

  249. @nearhorburian

    “But the lowland Scots – the vast majority of the population – aren’t Celts.”

    Yes, many lowland Scots descend from Anglo-Saxons driven north by the Normans. And many northern and eastern Scots descend from Viking settlers. So they may or may not be purely “Celtic”. But don’t tell them they’re not Scots. Still, Scotland is traditionally part of the Celtic Fringe irrespective of DNA tests.

    “Scots is a dialect of English.”

    Hearing modern Scots is sort of like hearing Elizabethan English.

    “And England didn’t conquer Scotland.”

    Right, that’s why I said “partly successful”.

    It was like a merger, but it’s hard to tell who is on top of the resulting conglomerate. By weight of numbers, the English ought to have the upper hand, but the canny Scots seem to be over-represented in everything that matters (except law and religion, since England and Scotland maintain separate legal systems to this day, and largely attend separate churches … when they attend at all).

    Arguably, the 18th C. Union of Scotland and England under a Scottish monarch was the Anglo-Saxon lowland Scots getting back England they had been displaced from seven centuries earlier.

    Nevertheless, Scots often speak as if they had been conquered. See

    or

    or visit the battle memorial at Culloden for some gloomy fatalism. (The quelling of the Jacobite rising resembles a conquest, in some reckonings.)

    But this may just be Scots venting their dour melancholy though.

    Or maybe its the vicitm-ist spirit of our current age. Public legitimacy depends on aggressively promoting one’s victim status, and the canny Scots aren’t going to let the Jews and blacks hog all the victim love, lol.

  250. Anonymous[719] • Disclaimer says:
    @Almost Missouri

    I think that example is anomalous– assistants at a uni’s admissions office tend to be alumni of that uni. It’s less to do with “institutional memory” than with, I daresay, the range of job opportunities those assistants had upon graduation.

    In my experience, admissions functionaries are typically affable, socially perceptive, but basically clueless about bureaucratic politics, undernews, and high-end theorizing in ed research/pedagogy (they wouldn’t have the job if they weren’t). Though they flatter themselves that their work is Solomonic and making a difference in youngsters’ lives, blah blah, they really have no say about the selection priorities which come down to them in a formula from above.

    Overall it is a bland office job, OK if you like airports and talking to high schoolers’ neurotic mothers, but less prestigious in practice than is supposed. It’s a lot more fun working over in the athletic dept. or alumni development.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  251. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Reg Cæsar

    And inbetween Carroll and Hitler, the Eternal Virgin was Degas!
    He’s got to be immortal. We know he doesn’t reproduce.

  252. @Lot

    Dunno. The English Civil War lasted nine years and resulted in over 200,000 losses from a 5 million-ish population, according to Wiki. That’s over 4%. By comparison the US Civil War–our biggest national trauma–resulted in “merely” losing a bit over 2% of the population, most of which were military losses, while the English Civil War losses were heavily civilian.

    And then when you include other English civil wars that don’t happen to have “Civil War” in the title, it gets even worse. The War of Roses, which was a civil war of the English ruling class, dragged on for 32 years and the losses were never fully tallied. It is telling of its scale though that biggest battle ever fought on English soil, Towton, was fought in this war. And it is telling of the War’s obscurity that even many English people have never heard of Towton. By some reckoning, more than 3% of England’s entire population fought each other at this one battle, which is to say 6% of all Englishmen or maybe 12%-24% of all fighting age males. And about half of them died there. So a thirty year war in the middle of which was a massive Rumble In The North sucking in one out of five young Englishmen, killing half of them, permanently maiming more, and settling nothing. The war dragged on 26 more years.

    And that doesn’t include various other civil war-like conflicts.

    OTOH, even this scale of bloodshed is dwarfed by the losses to internal conflict of places like, say, China, which could lose tens of millions in a dynastic downfall. And to your point, since the English Civil War, English politics has been relatively nonviolent. So three and half centuries of relative domestic tranquility is pretty good.

    Of course, that leaves out that after a couple of centuries of tranquility, the rulers sacrificed 3% of the entire population (6% of men, 12%-24% of young men, not counting wounded) in a useless expeditionary war that also settled nothing…

  253. @Rosamond Vincy

    “Child prostitution was rife in Victorian England. Had Carroll wanted sex with kids, it was available.”

    While it was rife at the opening of the Victorian Era, this was one of the many social pathologies that the much maligned Victorians worked to and ultimately succeeded in overthrowing.

    I say this partly to rescue the Victorians from charges of hypocrisy, and partly to note that by the time of his maturity, Charles Dodgson may have found young nookie was getting scarce.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  254. Lagertha says:
    @Steve Sailer

    you gotta blame it on someone, I suppose. This is the thing: no one at Harvard is ever going to admit that they accept students that have no chance of doing well there. Of course, majors have been created for students who seek “Identity Grievance Studies.” And, the bone Elite U’s throw out is: “we still stick to SAT’s when it comes to the STEM majors,” but even that is bs.

  255. Coemgen says:
    @Roderick Spode

    That would make the U.S. a truly centrist country with the added benefit of reducing our embarrassingly high incarceration rate.

  256. Lagertha says:
    @Redneck farmer

    However, I see signs of ruthlessness: if managers suck from the Ivies, they are fired. It is much more scorched earth now.

  257. Lagertha says:
    @Almost Missouri

    It’s just a job. This is the reality of Admissions Administrators: they are like yesterday’s secretaries: they fill forms and put in a minimum amount of detail, even if it is an applicant who wows them. Seriously, I have heard that really boring people who’ve lived unexceptional lives, toss your kid’s application in the bin or place it in the: to be considered box. It is sick and true. One person decides and axes 80% of the applications until the last 20% or more, go on to a “group decision.” And, “money” applicants are in a separate pool.

  258. @Reg Cæsar

    Whatever he wanted his half-niece to do totally disgusted her. No way of knowing whether it involved conventional sexual relations at all.

  259. Clyde says:

    *********What the big Kahuna, born in Delhi, has to say

    “I hope that no student who doesn’t get accepted to Harvard — by the way, I wasn’t accepted to Harvard College out of high school; I wouldn’t let me in, even today — what you hope is that people do not read this as if it’s a validation either of who they are nor an invalidation of their potential or their achievement,” said Rakesh Khurana, the dean of Harvard College, who went to Cornell as an undergraduate.

    “Our goal is not to create a zero-sum game,” Professor Khurana added. “We do have some very affirmative goals though that I think are important to understand. That when we talk about diversity of backgrounds and experiences, it includes different academic interests. It includes different occupations of parents. It includes socioeconomic differences. It includes different viewpoints on issues.”

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/29/us/harvard-admissions-asian-americans.html?rref=collection%2Fbyline%2Famy-harmon&action=click&contentCollection=undefined&region=stream&module=stream_unit&version=latest&contentPlacement=7&pgtype=collection

  260. Dtbb says:
    @Almost Missouri

    I watched a show about Westminster last night that claimed 10 % of the population died during the English Civil War.

  261. Mr. Anon says:
    @The Alarmist

    Manslaughter while Intoxicated is Kennedyesque.

    DWK – Driving While Kennedy

    What is the correct term of venery for Kennedys (analogous to “a flock of birds”, “a glaring of cats”, etc.)? I suggest “crash”. A crash of Kennedys.

    • LOL: Mr. Rational
  262. @Mr. Anon

    term of venery for Kennedys

    A dead of Kennedys.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  263. @Almost Missouri

    [Ivy League University] admissions officer was a graduate of a lower tier university.

    The schools at the top of the food chain have a strong preference for eating their own dog food. It’s a job most people find tiring, basically a low-paid traveling salesman half the year and repetitive clerical work the other half, so it’s good for everyone to hire young people freshly graduated from that university and have most of them leave within a couple of years. The minority who like the business stay on for longer and the talented ones from those become managers and are rotated through other university positions. The ones running the show are smart and tend to have other things besides admission work on their resumes.

  264. @Reg Cæsar

    Hitler did not die a virgin. He was no Benito Mussolini, or Mao, but he more than likely had sex with a number of women. One of the more interesting rumors is Hitler’s infatuation with Magda Schneider, a German actress and mother of international star Romy Schneider. Romy said in an interview in the 1980s that she was convinced her mother had slept with Hitler.

    Hitler was certainly a bit odd, and probably suffered from a debilitating fear of venereal disease, not unreasonably for a young man living in the Viennese slums in the early 1900s, where diseased prostitutes and syphilis victims were quite common. But he seems to have had a fairly normal heterosexual desire for women nonetheless. The virgin myth served both the allies – in making Hitler seem like a freak, and the Hitler cult – in portraying Hitler as a quasi-monk like figure of self-sacrifice, focusing all his energies on the German people. Neither myth is true.

    • Replies: @candid_observer
  265. @Anonymous

    I presume that the all stars get tracked into alumni development and the nice kids get into admissions.

  266. Ivy League admissions policies make sense from the viewpoint of the Bretts and Beckies who get in: “look at me! Im white and Harvard admitted me; I am pretty special.”

    • Agree: Desiderius
  267. Fun fact: Harvard Business School rejected Warren Buffett. Some things never change.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Buffett

  268. Tyrion 2 says:
    @415 reasons

    The real issue here is that, as I understand it, the lawsuit is alleging that Harvard discriminates in favour of whites against Asians rather than against both in favour of lower achieving minorities.

    This obvious cowardice by those who brought the lawsuit allows Harvard to make this defence and for it to be a decent one.

    A, W, B and M walk into a car auction. B and M are handed $10,000 each by the auctioneer. ‘A’ then stupidly decides to sue the auctioneer for favouring W over A.

    I suppose because the coalitioj of the fringes must hold together or something…but it also means that Harvard are actually right in this particular lawsuit. Harvard does not use race to distinguish white and Asian applications from each other. There are other factors.

    Maybe the plaintiffs are worried of a disparate impact counter claim?

  269. Tyrion 2 says:
    @Almost Missouri

    The War of Roses, which was a civil war of the English ruling class, dragged on for 32 years and the losses were never fully tallied.

    Yeah it looked pretty horrible in the first few seasons of the Game of Thrones documentary series.

  270. @Almost Missouri

    There was a lot of scrapping during Stephen’s reign, when “Christ and his saints slept”. The period is the setting for Ellis Peters’ monastic whodunnits.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cadfael_Chronicles

  271. @Tyrion 2

    I do think though, to be fair to Harvard’s lawyers – in a difficult position, they are . . .

    Lying.

  272. @Anonymous

    In a way, Harvard has a point, because we are only supposed to give a damn about NAMs. They basically just didn’t spell it out well enough.

    They said race can only help. No, there wis no way to spin that so it makes any sense whatsoever.

    Harvard’s only possible argument is that we should be allowed to discriminate on the basis of race, because that’s what they’re doing and everyone knows it.

    • Replies: @academic gossip
  273. @Rosamond Vincy

    Okay, but in all those mugshots, the only one described as a prostitute is age 17, which is rather old for Mr. Dodgson’s proclivities, was well above the age of consent at the time (12) and is above the age of consent in England even today (16).

    As for Eliza Armstrong, who was 13, she was a media setup, not actually a prostitute. The media impresario responsible for her fame admitted she was not representative of young prostitutes at the time. Indeed, her sensational and sensationalized case was the media setup–organized by Victorian reformers–that finally got the reformers’ reforms written into law, as it was designed to do.

    In any case, Dodgson seemed most animated not by any of the above, but by prepubescent girls.

    BTW, how did you get those Daily Mail articles to post without the annoying sidebars?

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  274. @Jack D

    As unbelievable as that sounds, that’s the entire intellectual justification for AFFIRMATIVE action. Get it – it’s “positive” discrimination, not like old fashioned racist kind of “negative” discrimination.

    They can rationalize it any way they want, but if someone gets up on the stand and testifies that it can only help applicants, that’s perjury.

  275. @Simon

    You’re right about the unfairness of giving extra points to “legacy” applicants. Clearly it aids the argument for affirmative action: If you’re going to confer an advantage on these coddled rich kids simply because their daddies went to Harvard, it’s only right to give poor black kids a boost as well.

    Still, I can think of a couple of arguments — not necessarily persuasive, but at least worth mentioning — in the legacy candidates’ favor. Obviously they’re more likely to become big donors to the university. And I would suspect that, in general, their academic qualifications and SAT scores are superior to those of minority applicants.

    Favoring legacy applicants is as unfair as spending your money on your kids instead of someone else’s.

    And all applicants are minority applicants. No race constitutes a majority of humans.

  276. Tulip says:

    Harvard has testified that race, when considered in admissions, can only help, not hurt, a student’s chances of getting in.

    Of course its true. People are forgetting that officially, “whites” aren’t a race, and “Asians” don’t exist.

    If you have any question about the existence of Asians, just look at the scores Harvard gave Asians on personality in interviews. If you don’t exist, you can’t have a very good personality, could you?

    P.S. “Jews” don’t exist officially in college admissions either, but their “non-existence” is distinguishable from the non-existence of Asians.

  277. @Almost Missouri

    Towton was particularly nasty.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  278. res says:
    @Tyrion 2

    And of course Harvard’s lawyers don’t understand what a zero sum game is. You are being too generous, Tyrion 2.

  279. res says:
    @Tyrion 2

    Same A level scoring students would do better on the Finals than their co-scorers, had they been to fancy private high schools.

    How do they (or you) explain this? Is this a regression towards the mean type phenomenon, a correlation between fancy private high schools and non-IQ traits (e.g. work ethic), or something else?

  280. @Almost Missouri

    No clue about the sidebars, but Dodgson’s asking parents permission for nude photos in letters extolling the children’s Edenic purity and innocence in decades when child prostitution was easily available implies that he didn’t want to admit, even to himself, if there was anything prurient going on in the back of his mind. At that time, nude kids were considered harmless, and nude women were naughty. There are some theories that his relatives destroyed numerous photos he’d taken of adult nudes after his death, because in those days, that was what would have caused a scandal

    As he got older, his “child friends” actually rose in age, until he was inviting girls in their mid-to-late teens to stay with him on beach holidays, in gleeful defiance of what he called “Mrs. Grundy.”

    I don’t know what his damage was, but I seriously doubt he ever molested anyone.

  281. Mr. Anon says:
    @Lot

    I had often thought the same thing myself. However, I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that England has had more civil wars than any other European nation. Most people here will have heard of, and perhaps even known something about, the Civil War in the 17th century and the Wars of the Roses. I recently red Dan Jone’s The Plantagenets (not a bad book,by the way – not great – but not bad), and was surprised to read of several civil wars ( I lost count) during that time, in the 12th, 13th, and early 14th centuries. Peaceful, stable England is a relatively new phenomenon.

  282. @Jefferson

    Betamale Beto is running as an anti-2nd amendment politician in gun loving Texas of all places, he is not defeating Ted Cruz. Texas has not transformed into Virginia yet in terms of a Southern state that has turned blue.

    In my neighborhood, Beto has 10 times as many yard signs as any candidate in any prior election since I’ve been here (11 years). This is a neighborhood that did not feature a single Hillary yard sign in 2016.

    • Replies: @res
    , @ben tillman
  283. @anon

    The people most hurt by AA are genuinely gifted blacks, Hispanics and Muslims who could’ve qualified on their own without AA.

    The people hurt most are the most-gifted whites.

  284. @Buffalo Joe

    Mr. Anon, So Beto fled the scene of a drunk driving accident, which is not quite up to swimming away from a drunk driving accident.

    The Rio Grande isn’t very deep.

    • LOL: Mr. Rational
  285. res says:
    @ben tillman

    Why do you think that is?

    • Replies: @ben tillman
  286. @res

    I’ve been wracking my brain for two months, and I don’t get it myself. I did look at DCAD records to see whether there was an ethnic pattern, and there were a few more Hispanics than I realized on the fringes of the area, but that’s just a small part of the phenomenon.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    , @Lot
  287. @ben tillman

    He’s channeling Obama’s 2004 speech.

    Localism is a thing. The localizers would rather not have to think about anything global so they don’t and Beto doesn’t ask them to.

  288. Harvard’s argument here is just silly; it doesn’t even rise to the level of sophistry. The idea that helping one race doesn’t by definition hurt the others is so stupid as to be embarrassing.

    I’m OK with using race as one of the criteria, as long as everybody understands that:

    1) the preferred races will likely quit at a higher rate (or graduate with less valuable degrees, like those in Angry Studies) since they really aren’t competitive and

    2) that the Harvard degrees “earned” by the preferred races are worth less.

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
  289. Lot says:
    @ben tillman

    “there were a few more Hispanics than I realized on the fringes of the area”

    That is very common in suburban California. Specifically, single family house streets being 95-100% white/asian, but on main roads apartment complexes that are majority hispanic.

    Zooming out, if you look at a shaded ethnic map of Southern California and knew nothing else, you’d think it is at least 80% white.

    • Replies: @Jefferson
  290. @Steve in Greensboro

    2) that the Harvard degrees “earned” by the preferred races are worth less.

    It appears that business already knows this.  I’d have to spend some considerable time with my browser locked up as it loaded 15,000 bookmarks* to check, but I recall a very recent article saying that Black graduates of top-tier universities received fewer job offers at lower salaries than Whites did.

    * Damn Mozilla for breaking the interface that TagSieve requires.  I haven’t gotten it working again under Pale Moon.

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
  291. @Peter Akuleyev

    The virgin myth served both the allies – in making Hitler seem like a freak, and the Hitler cult…

    It’s well known that Hitler had only one big ball.

    It’s been celebrated in song.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  292. Olorin says:
    @Colin Wright

    It makes far more sense when you realize that academia, like the MSM, is an opposition party.

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
  293. @Mr. Anon

    Wouldn’t it, like crows, be a Murder of Kennedys?

    • LOL: Mr. Rational
  294. @Mr. Rational

    It’s like giving all the children on a team a participation trophy: The children know what the score was, and so do some of the parents.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
  295. @Olorin

    You mis-spelled “enemy”.

  296. @candid_observer

    I’ve heard Goering had two, but they were small.

  297. @ben tillman

    They said race can only help. No, there wis no way to spin that so it makes any sense whatsoever.

    Did they really say that? There is no evidence of it except the NYT unquoted paraphrase. No other outlets seem to have reported such a statement (that I could find, and I searched Twitter bloggers who are sitting in the courthouse posting direct quotations from the witness testimony). It is implausible that they would testify so stupidly without any juicy trial reverberations reported in the media-, blog- and Twitter-spheres, much of which is hostile. In fact this idiocy “from Harvard” is all over social media but only in the form of links to the NYT article. Nothing directly sourced to a witness, nor the name of the witness.

    I suspect that the stupid here comes from NYT’s reporter, not Harvard and their army of lawyers. All it would take to prove my suspicion wrong is a single direct quotation of the trial testimony.

    • Replies: @ben tillman
  298. Given that no smoking gun pointed at Asians has emerged after a week of trial and a year of Deep Proctology on Harvard’s admission department, it is worth trying to understand what Bakke argument Harvard is actually making.

    From Twitter quotations of their extensively coached witnesses I gather that the defense is this.

    They don’t “use race per se” (direct quote of witness) which must include not using race to rate objective factors differently. The same academic-athletic-extracurricular profile will get you an identical rating regardless of race.

    Instead they say they use race as part of the “contextual” evaluation of the admission information that is personal data unique to the individual, such as material in their essay and recommendation letters.

    This fits the Bakke formula that race consideration is by definition “individualized”.

    It also allows them to claim something like “race can only help”, in the sense that any inference that a black applicant has his personal story treated better, will be counterargued by saying that the black-specific elements of his story, and the story as a whole, would not have been there if he had been born white. The argument is that you can’t change an applicant’s race alone, you have to change the other race-related factors and life history along with it in thought experiments on the effect of race on admission.

    This is the same as the “unobserved factors” argument in the Harvard expert report, and it is logically correct in both cases. There is only the empirical issue of whether the admission really works that way, and if it does whether the unobserved factors are strong enough to create the level of admission disparity seen. On present information, looks to me like the answer is Probably Yes for Asians and Obviously Not for affirmative action admission. But there is still 2/3 of the trial not yet unfolded.

  299. Jefferson says:
    @Lot

    Also in Southern California you have to pay an arm and a leg to live in a neighborhood where English not Spanish is the dominant majority language.

  300. Anonymous[232] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosamond Vincy

    Yes, because both sides agreed beforehand that no prisoners would be taken. It was supposed to be the final big battle that would decide the war.

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