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iSteve commenter Last Real Calvinist reports from Hong Kong:

Hong Kong is doing pretty well at the moment.

We’ve had no community-based new cases of COVID-19 in the past 15 days. In that period, there’s been just a handful of new cases, all in people arriving at the airport from overseas.

This past weekend was four days long because of a couple of public holidays. Shopping malls were packed, restaurants busy (although still limited to four people per table), and beaches booming.

This week the restrictions will be relaxed, with restaurants able to seat parties up to eight together (although not yet the big 12-person round tables so characteristic of Cantonese restaurants). Spas, gyms, and cinemas will be able to reopen. I believe bars/pubs and karaoke joints will have to stay closed, as I suspect will churches and other places that draw big groups.

The yearly high school exit exams that the local culture obsesses over, the DSEs, were delayed a month, but are now ongoing. They started just over a week ago, and will last till May 25. Daughter C is sitting for her DSE Chinese exam at this very moment. She gets extra space in her exam hall, and has to wear a mask, but on the whole they’ve gone very smoothly so far. Schools will reopen later this month once the DSEs are done.

Speaking of masks, everybody’s still wearing them in all public indoor spaces, on public transport, and so on. I’ve noticed more people outdoors eschewing them in the past few days. In offices, some people wear them; some don’t. My employer requires us to wear them when out in public parts of our buildings, but in my own office I don’t wear one.

Just a couple of reminders about the HK situation:

***In total, HK has had just over 1,000 confirmed COVID-19 cases, and four deaths.

***At no time did stores and public transport shut down here. There have been restrictions, and significant periods of ‘work from home’, but no full lockdown.

***Nearly everybody’s been wearing masks since late January.

***Public buy-in to wearing masks and to enacting other social-distancing measures here is noteworthy. SARS in 2003 got everybody over the hurdles associated with adopting these measures. This time around, for good or ill, almost nobody questioned them.

***The border controls here, after some initial government dithering, have been tight. From late March, all overseas arrivals, not just those who test positive, have had to self-quarantine for two weeks. It seems to have worked.

 
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  1. Anonymous[290] • Disclaimer says:

    Forced mask wearing is the first step in a multistep process that ends with jackbooted thugs kicking the door down to… uh… I’m sure there is a connection somehow, right?

    1. Issue decree that everyone must wear a mask.
    2. ???
    3. Drag you to the gulag
    4. Profit!

    Step 1 is oh so critical. Not sure why you’d ban the 2A and take the guns when the mask enforcement is the critical step to the establishment of the police state.

    As Ben Franklin said, those who would wear masks to purchase a little temporary safety in the time of a pandemic, deserve neither liberty or safety, or a mask I might add, those losers!

    • Replies: @danand

    "...first step in a multistep process that ends with jackbooted thugs kicking the door down to..."
     
    Was it just me, or did anyone else get an eerie feeling this afternoon as Governor Newsom talked about his "hiring of a large number of tracers". These tracers will "monitor" citizens who had tested positive for COVID-19; as well as all of their contacts.

    First thought that popped to mind was "Hitler Youths".

    "Operating under the Department of Health (DC Health), Trace Force investigators will interview those who have tested positive for the virus - collecting "demographic, clinical, social and historical data, while conducting an assessment to determine whether safe isolation can be achieved at home."

    "Those who have been in contact with a positive case will be contacted to assess whether they have symptoms and require quarantine, and will "appropriately escalate" cases when needed."

     
    , @The Alarmist

    Forced mask wearing is the first step in a multistep process that ends with jackbooted thugs kicking the door down to… uh… I’m sure there is a connection somehow, right?
     
    Actually, TPTB didn't think this fully through, as the masks screw up their massive investments in facial recognition camera networks.
  2. Hmm…Hong Kong, Taiwan, South Korea, Sweden. All I know is race is a social construct, and diversity is a strength.

  3. So, in a sense, this time around, this was all “SARS number one” for the rest of the world, which is why so many acted like retards?

    This actually makes sense.

  4. hahahhahhahhaahaahahaaaa, you, rascal! – how are things in Huntington Beach?!!!!!!!!!

  5. I love Chinese people, who are generally good-hearted, and I love Chinese art and poetry and civilization but I am going to put this out there right now, for all the people who read this and who have no idea how foolish it is to mockingly compare one country to another.

    If this is a one in 20 year flu season, the people who were responsible will live long lives with no worries.

    But …. If this turns out to be worse than a one in 20 years bad flu season, if this is a season where America suffers at a hundred times or so what, say, Korea or Hong Kong or Peking suffers, God help you all who did not care about the suffering of the poor in America.

    If that is the case, it will be at least a hundred years from now before Chinese people rule in Asian countries, or anywhere else. Believe me, there is absolutely no way that, if this pandemic is a hundred times harder on Americans than Asians, that there will be a single square mile in China that is not ruled over by non-Chinese for the next hundred years. At least.

    • Troll: utu
    • Replies: @Mr McKenna
    Fun theory. It underestimates the death wish endemic to the American public.

    About Hong Kong? I have to say that while 'case load' is always and everywhere an 'artifact of testing' one has to place some credence on their incredibly low death rate. Well, I want to say that HK is a locus of far greater integrity than the PRC--but that's 30-yr old intelligence. Calvinist can tell us more about how it is now, but generally speaking HK is far more "Chinese" than it used to be.

    , @Anonymous

    Believe me, there is absolutely no way that, if this pandemic is a hundred times harder on Americans than Asians, that there will be a single square mile in China that is not ruled over by non-Chinese for the next hundred years. At least.
     
    And that will be achieved ... how? Got a plan? LMAO.

    I suppose it's an inevitable consequence of Unz Review/iSteve becoming more popular but the significant rise in the number of completely unhinged posters is very notable.
    , @allensheep
    "If that is the case, it will be at least a hundred years from now before Chinese people rule in Asian countries, or anywhere else. Believe me, there is absolutely no way that, if this pandemic is a hundred times harder on Americans than Asians, that there will be a single square mile in China that is not ruled over by non-Chinese for the next hundred years. At least."

    Your theory is that the US will military invade and occupy China? I guess, technically it might be possible if you use enough nukes, but that would be pretty unhinged and basically genocidal.
  6. Congratulations to Hong Kong for effectively executing their strategy. It is a very well organized city and it does not surprise me they have been successful. However, it remains to be seen if their strategy will work in the longer term.

    Crushing the infection effectively now certainly means that they are more susceptible to infections in the going forward compared to a country that pursues herd immunity. In particular, opening up to travel will be critical for their economy but maybe not feasible without reigniting the epidemic.

    Whether HK strategy turns out well or not is largely irrelevant for most countries that have no prayer of implementing it. Most countries are larger, more complex, and less well organized. In the USA, this Test, Track, Isolate strategy will need to be managed separately in several thousand counties. It is perhaps not an exaggeration to say that not a single US county is better organized than HK and most are much, much worse. In addition, because we can not isolate sections of the US, the least well organized counties will screw up the few that manage to successfully implement TT&I.

    • Agree: LondonBob
  7. @Anonymous
    Forced mask wearing is the first step in a multistep process that ends with jackbooted thugs kicking the door down to... uh... I'm sure there is a connection somehow, right?

    1. Issue decree that everyone must wear a mask.
    2. ???
    3. Drag you to the gulag
    4. Profit!

    Step 1 is oh so critical. Not sure why you'd ban the 2A and take the guns when the mask enforcement is the critical step to the establishment of the police state.

    As Ben Franklin said, those who would wear masks to purchase a little temporary safety in the time of a pandemic, deserve neither liberty or safety, or a mask I might add, those losers!

    “…first step in a multistep process that ends with jackbooted thugs kicking the door down to…”

    Was it just me, or did anyone else get an eerie feeling this afternoon as Governor Newsom talked about his “hiring of a large number of tracers”. These tracers will “monitor” citizens who had tested positive for COVID-19; as well as all of their contacts.

    First thought that popped to mind was “Hitler Youths”.

    “Operating under the Department of Health (DC Health), Trace Force investigators will interview those who have tested positive for the virus – collecting “demographic, clinical, social and historical data, while conducting an assessment to determine whether safe isolation can be achieved at home.”

    “Those who have been in contact with a positive case will be contacted to assess whether they have symptoms and require quarantine, and will “appropriately escalate” cases when needed.

  8. It’s noteworthy that Hong Kong and Singapore basically achieved all this just with masks. Yes there was contact-tracing too, but in such built-up crowded cities where everybody shares the same elevators and subways, I’m sceptical of how effective it can be.

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
    True, but Singapore had a huge contact tracing operation going using its civil defense workers, and finding every second and third degree contact with great rapidity for the first couple of months.

    Singapore was doing as well as Hong Kong or Taiwan, until the end of March.

    But Singapore dropped the ball, big time, by overlooking its 400,000 low-paid foreign temporary workers, all of them unskilled labor, who live in fenced-off dorms, with up to 20 workers sleeping in a room in bunk beds.

    While the general population is seeing only a dozen new cases a day, nearly 18,000 migrants are now infected, and being kept isolated from the general population.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/api/rest_v1/page/graph/png/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Singapore/0/ca595fd591393b3dd7d895ba3dd2fa4a97749d0f.png

    https://news.yahoo.com/singapore-coronavirus-success-story-until-122333353.html

    , @Pop Warner
    It's amazing what can happen when your top disease agency actually tells people to wear masks instead of saying that masks are bad and the real virus is racism
  9. @Stephen Dodge
    I love Chinese people, who are generally good-hearted, and I love Chinese art and poetry and civilization but I am going to put this out there right now, for all the people who read this and who have no idea how foolish it is to mockingly compare one country to another.

    If this is a one in 20 year flu season, the people who were responsible will live long lives with no worries.

    But .... If this turns out to be worse than a one in 20 years bad flu season, if this is a season where America suffers at a hundred times or so what, say, Korea or Hong Kong or Peking suffers, God help you all who did not care about the suffering of the poor in America.

    If that is the case, it will be at least a hundred years from now before Chinese people rule in Asian countries, or anywhere else. Believe me, there is absolutely no way that, if this pandemic is a hundred times harder on Americans than Asians, that there will be a single square mile in China that is not ruled over by non-Chinese for the next hundred years. At least.

    Fun theory. It underestimates the death wish endemic to the American public.

    About Hong Kong? I have to say that while ‘case load’ is always and everywhere an ‘artifact of testing’ one has to place some credence on their incredibly low death rate. Well, I want to say that HK is a locus of far greater integrity than the PRC–but that’s 30-yr old intelligence. Calvinist can tell us more about how it is now, but generally speaking HK is far more “Chinese” than it used to be.

  10. @Andrew M
    It’s noteworthy that Hong Kong and Singapore basically achieved all this just with masks. Yes there was contact-tracing too, but in such built-up crowded cities where everybody shares the same elevators and subways, I’m sceptical of how effective it can be.

    True, but Singapore had a huge contact tracing operation going using its civil defense workers, and finding every second and third degree contact with great rapidity for the first couple of months.

    Singapore was doing as well as Hong Kong or Taiwan, until the end of March.

    But Singapore dropped the ball, big time, by overlooking its 400,000 low-paid foreign temporary workers, all of them unskilled labor, who live in fenced-off dorms, with up to 20 workers sleeping in a room in bunk beds.

    While the general population is seeing only a dozen new cases a day, nearly 18,000 migrants are now infected, and being kept isolated from the general population.

    https://news.yahoo.com/singapore-coronavirus-success-story-until-122333353.html

    • Replies: @The Alarmist

    But Singapore dropped the ball, big time, by overlooking its 400,000 low-paid foreign temporary workers, all of them unskilled labor, who live in fenced-off dorms, with up to 20 workers sleeping in a room in bunk beds.
     
    It's the immigrants ... it's always the immigrants.
    , @nebulafox
    >But Singapore dropped the ball, big time, by overlooking its 400,000 low-paid foreign temporary workers, all of them unskilled labor, who live in fenced-off dorms, with up to 20 workers sleeping in a room in bunk beds.

    The unsanitary, crowded conditions the migrant laborers have to live in here are an open secret. The dorms are largely off limits to anybody who doesn't have a good reason to be there, but what you see from the outside is enough. Since, by necessity given their work, they are fit men in their 20s and 30s, deaths still aren't all that high despite the infection clusters. I believe we are at 16, with nobody under 60 dead. But the infection clusters were off the charts for a bit. I don't know what is going to happen with the circuit breaker: the plan is for gradual withdrawal over May and theoretical ending on June 1st. Many of the laborers are Bangladeshi, i.e, Muslim, and it is Ramadan, so things are particularly tough for them right now.

    The migrant workers don't complain: what other choice do they have, given the money they make and the families back home depending on them? On top of that, most of them are poor Bangladeshis and are therefore used to tough conditions. But it is the dark side of Singapore. If you look carefully while driving on the highway, you'll occasionally see open-back trucks with the whole back filled with Bangladeshi and Indian men, like I used to do back in rural Texas. Here, that's illegal for citizens to do, considered far too dangerous in Singapore's more urban environment... but the migrant workers are considered expendable enough by Singaporean society to ride that way. It's so funny considering how leftists back home rant about America being a place that "denies personhood" to dark skinned people: they have absolutely no clue how societies outside their Western European/Anglosphere bubble operate and how America looks in comparison. (And Singapore is nevertheless considered a prize destination for laborers in terms of conditions compared to the Gulf States: you should hear some of the horror stories the Indonesian and Filipinas hear from their co-ethnics in that part of the world.)

  11. @Anonymous
    Forced mask wearing is the first step in a multistep process that ends with jackbooted thugs kicking the door down to... uh... I'm sure there is a connection somehow, right?

    1. Issue decree that everyone must wear a mask.
    2. ???
    3. Drag you to the gulag
    4. Profit!

    Step 1 is oh so critical. Not sure why you'd ban the 2A and take the guns when the mask enforcement is the critical step to the establishment of the police state.

    As Ben Franklin said, those who would wear masks to purchase a little temporary safety in the time of a pandemic, deserve neither liberty or safety, or a mask I might add, those losers!

    Forced mask wearing is the first step in a multistep process that ends with jackbooted thugs kicking the door down to… uh… I’m sure there is a connection somehow, right?

    Actually, TPTB didn’t think this fully through, as the masks screw up their massive investments in facial recognition camera networks.

    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist

    Actually, TPTB didn’t think this fully through, as the masks screw up their massive investments in facial recognition camera networks.

     

    Hong Kong's government is currently doing the metaphorical splits over just this issue.

    Late last year, as a half-hearted effort to stem the protests/rioting, they outlawed the wearing of masks except under certain quite ill-defined conditions.

    Now of course they're delighted that everybody's wearing masks because it's making HK's anti-C19 campaign more effective.

    , @Anon7
    FYI:

    How China built facial recognition for people wearing masks

    The company now says its masked facial recognition program has reached 95 percent accuracy in lab tests, and even claims that it is more accurate in real life, where its cameras take multiple photos of a person if the first attempt to identify them fails.

    “The problem of masked facial recognition is not new, but belongs to the family of facial recognition with occlusion,” Mr Huang said, adding that his company had first encountered similar issues with people with beards in Turkey and Pakistan, as well as with northern Chinese customers wearing winter clothing that covered their ears and face.
    , @Anonymous
    Yes, that is one of the reasons why I don't get the "masks, omg!" sentiment. It's the last thing TPTB want everyone to wear permanently as it screws with facial recognition.
    , @Buck Ransom
    Not to worry, as soon as your subcutaneous Bill Gates/Gates of Hell ID nanochip has been implanted, they will be able to track you just fine.
  12. @PiltdownMan
    True, but Singapore had a huge contact tracing operation going using its civil defense workers, and finding every second and third degree contact with great rapidity for the first couple of months.

    Singapore was doing as well as Hong Kong or Taiwan, until the end of March.

    But Singapore dropped the ball, big time, by overlooking its 400,000 low-paid foreign temporary workers, all of them unskilled labor, who live in fenced-off dorms, with up to 20 workers sleeping in a room in bunk beds.

    While the general population is seeing only a dozen new cases a day, nearly 18,000 migrants are now infected, and being kept isolated from the general population.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/api/rest_v1/page/graph/png/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Singapore/0/ca595fd591393b3dd7d895ba3dd2fa4a97749d0f.png

    https://news.yahoo.com/singapore-coronavirus-success-story-until-122333353.html

    But Singapore dropped the ball, big time, by overlooking its 400,000 low-paid foreign temporary workers, all of them unskilled labor, who live in fenced-off dorms, with up to 20 workers sleeping in a room in bunk beds.

    It’s the immigrants … it’s always the immigrants.

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
    They're not actually immigrants. They are guest workers, with work permits that can be revoked by their employers. Singapore deports any workers who moonlight or break the conditions of their limited purpose work permit visas. In a well-publicized case a few years ago, it deported a bunch of them by driving them to the airport, destroying their suitcases in front of them, and putting them on an outbound plane.
    , @nebulafox
    As PiltdownMan said: Singapore does *not* tolerate illegal immigration, and legal immigration is strictly controlled with an unapologetic, if unstated, racial hierarchy at work in who is considered as new citizens. The immigration here mainly comes from mainland China as a barely veiled mechanism to keep the city-state's Han dominant ethnic balance in check, which presents its own problems, but is most definitely government sanctioned with controlled numbers.

    Guest workers are here to work: they have no contact with Singaporeans outside of their bosses. They overstay, they will probably earn a caning for their troubles, and it'll be immediate deportation with a lifelong ban afterwards. They tell them this before they enter: after the contract is up, they leave, with no room for ambiguity.

  13. @The Alarmist

    Forced mask wearing is the first step in a multistep process that ends with jackbooted thugs kicking the door down to… uh… I’m sure there is a connection somehow, right?
     
    Actually, TPTB didn't think this fully through, as the masks screw up their massive investments in facial recognition camera networks.

    Actually, TPTB didn’t think this fully through, as the masks screw up their massive investments in facial recognition camera networks.

    Hong Kong’s government is currently doing the metaphorical splits over just this issue.

    Late last year, as a half-hearted effort to stem the protests/rioting, they outlawed the wearing of masks except under certain quite ill-defined conditions.

    Now of course they’re delighted that everybody’s wearing masks because it’s making HK’s anti-C19 campaign more effective.

  14. @The Alarmist

    But Singapore dropped the ball, big time, by overlooking its 400,000 low-paid foreign temporary workers, all of them unskilled labor, who live in fenced-off dorms, with up to 20 workers sleeping in a room in bunk beds.
     
    It's the immigrants ... it's always the immigrants.

    They’re not actually immigrants. They are guest workers, with work permits that can be revoked by their employers. Singapore deports any workers who moonlight or break the conditions of their limited purpose work permit visas. In a well-publicized case a few years ago, it deported a bunch of them by driving them to the airport, destroying their suitcases in front of them, and putting them on an outbound plane.

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    I loved being an expat in Singapore. I was treated like royalty, the place was clean and orderly, the food was great. All I had to do was obey the terms of my EP and obey the law, and everything else took care of itself. Well, I had to work too, but that was OK. Now that I think about it, I wonder if they'll still give me a PEP.
    , @jbwilson24
    " it deported a bunch of them by driving them to the airport, destroying their suitcases in front of them, and putting them on an outbound plane."

    Ah, I love East Asians. Not afraid to defend their cultures and put the boot down on foreigners who cause problems. Caning people for spitting gum on the street is something that makes me smile, although from the videos it isn't nearly bloody enough.

    China will deport permanent residents for any criminal action, Russia will kick out permanent residents for 3 adminsitrative infractions. Meanwhile Sweden lets serial gang rapists stay, providing them with welfare and iPhones.
    , @LondonBob
    There doesn't seem to be much difference between guest workers and slaves. I guess mankind really does have an innate hankering after having slaves do grunt work, the late Victorian/Edwardian European cohesive society, as perhaps exemplified by White Australia, really seems like an anomaly.
  15. @PiltdownMan
    They're not actually immigrants. They are guest workers, with work permits that can be revoked by their employers. Singapore deports any workers who moonlight or break the conditions of their limited purpose work permit visas. In a well-publicized case a few years ago, it deported a bunch of them by driving them to the airport, destroying their suitcases in front of them, and putting them on an outbound plane.

    I loved being an expat in Singapore. I was treated like royalty, the place was clean and orderly, the food was great. All I had to do was obey the terms of my EP and obey the law, and everything else took care of itself. Well, I had to work too, but that was OK. Now that I think about it, I wonder if they’ll still give me a PEP.

    • Replies: @chinasquashaustralia
    tps://thethaiger.com/hot-news/crime/facebook-page-advocates-violence-against-shit-tourists-in-phuket he he
  16. DW says:

    The situation in South Korea is much the same as in Hong Kong.

    -Zero new cases of community transmission; only “imported”
    -Social distancing guidelines to be eased from Wednesday (karaokes, gyms, etc. reopening)
    -Kids going back to school from next week
    -Baseball season began on Tuesday, to be followed next week by soccer
    -About 60% of people wearing masks, down from 90+% (except public transport)

    There was never any fuss about putting masks on. Only surprised at the willingness to take them off.

    • Replies: @anon
    -Baseball season began on Tuesday, to be followed next week by soccer

    ESPN has started coverage of the Korean baseball league, just to have something to draw eyeballs.
    , @jon
    With regard to Korea, I'll add that, except for the schools, nothing was mandatory. All of the closings/reductions and social distancing stuff was voluntary. Even Daegu, which everyone thought was going to be the next Wuhan when that cult breakout started, never had any kind of quarantine or curfew. And now it looks like things are about to wind down with a death toll of just over 250.

    Masks and and aggressive testing/tracing were all the world needed, but instead we have this clusterfuck in Europe, America ...
  17. Well, unlike you people sacrificing older people for the economy is not an acceptable option in Confucian societies like Taiwan, HK, and Korea. And there is no reliable way you can shield them anyway.

  18. anonymous[306] • Disclaimer says:

    Some stats to anchor the discussion.

    Guangdong Province

    Confirmed
    1,532

    Deaths
    8

    Guangdong was noteworthy for early testing of hundreds of thousands of people by walk-by booths. It was based on this mass testing practice the WHO doctor remarked in February the option there was no huge iceberg of hidden cases under the surface so the case fatality rates would not be far off from the infection mortality rate.

    Hong Kong

    Confirmed
    1,041

    Deaths
    4

    The mortality rate for Guangdong and Hong Kong are about the same, 0.5% and 0.4% respectively. Both are considerably lower than the estimated infection mortality rate in the boroughs of New York City, which I believe Steve calculated to be 0.9% based on the semi-randomized blood testing in front of grocery stores.

    Why such a large difference in mortality rates between NYC and Guangdong/HK?

    1. Is the percentage of infected in NYC actually twice higher than tested?
    2. Does NYC count the number of confirmed and probable deaths caused by covid 2x more liberally than in Guangdong/HK?
    3. Are both Guangdong and HK undercounting or missing the number of covid deaths more than most other places?

    And finally if coronavirus turns out to be about 4-5x more deadly than a bad flu season, what to do? While the virus would not be as devastating as feared, it is still too serious to go back to normal.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Thanks.

    Do we have two different versions of the germ out there, a mild one in many places and a more lethal one in Italy and New York?

    Or did Italy and New York screw up badly in how to treat severe cases? Were there a lot of deaths due to triage in Italy/NY that wouldn't have happened with less stressed hospitals?

    Or did the rest of the world's doctors learn from Italy and New York's travails?

    Or are the infection rate stats worthless and the IFR is the same everywhere?

  19. @PiltdownMan
    True, but Singapore had a huge contact tracing operation going using its civil defense workers, and finding every second and third degree contact with great rapidity for the first couple of months.

    Singapore was doing as well as Hong Kong or Taiwan, until the end of March.

    But Singapore dropped the ball, big time, by overlooking its 400,000 low-paid foreign temporary workers, all of them unskilled labor, who live in fenced-off dorms, with up to 20 workers sleeping in a room in bunk beds.

    While the general population is seeing only a dozen new cases a day, nearly 18,000 migrants are now infected, and being kept isolated from the general population.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/api/rest_v1/page/graph/png/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Singapore/0/ca595fd591393b3dd7d895ba3dd2fa4a97749d0f.png

    https://news.yahoo.com/singapore-coronavirus-success-story-until-122333353.html

    >But Singapore dropped the ball, big time, by overlooking its 400,000 low-paid foreign temporary workers, all of them unskilled labor, who live in fenced-off dorms, with up to 20 workers sleeping in a room in bunk beds.

    The unsanitary, crowded conditions the migrant laborers have to live in here are an open secret. The dorms are largely off limits to anybody who doesn’t have a good reason to be there, but what you see from the outside is enough. Since, by necessity given their work, they are fit men in their 20s and 30s, deaths still aren’t all that high despite the infection clusters. I believe we are at 16, with nobody under 60 dead. But the infection clusters were off the charts for a bit. I don’t know what is going to happen with the circuit breaker: the plan is for gradual withdrawal over May and theoretical ending on June 1st. Many of the laborers are Bangladeshi, i.e, Muslim, and it is Ramadan, so things are particularly tough for them right now.

    The migrant workers don’t complain: what other choice do they have, given the money they make and the families back home depending on them? On top of that, most of them are poor Bangladeshis and are therefore used to tough conditions. But it is the dark side of Singapore. If you look carefully while driving on the highway, you’ll occasionally see open-back trucks with the whole back filled with Bangladeshi and Indian men, like I used to do back in rural Texas. Here, that’s illegal for citizens to do, considered far too dangerous in Singapore’s more urban environment… but the migrant workers are considered expendable enough by Singaporean society to ride that way. It’s so funny considering how leftists back home rant about America being a place that “denies personhood” to dark skinned people: they have absolutely no clue how societies outside their Western European/Anglosphere bubble operate and how America looks in comparison. (And Singapore is nevertheless considered a prize destination for laborers in terms of conditions compared to the Gulf States: you should hear some of the horror stories the Indonesian and Filipinas hear from their co-ethnics in that part of the world.)

    • Agree: Johann Ricke
  20. @anonymous
    Some stats to anchor the discussion.

    Guangdong Province

    Confirmed
    1,532

    Deaths
    8
     
    Guangdong was noteworthy for early testing of hundreds of thousands of people by walk-by booths. It was based on this mass testing practice the WHO doctor remarked in February the option there was no huge iceberg of hidden cases under the surface so the case fatality rates would not be far off from the infection mortality rate.

    Hong Kong

    Confirmed
    1,041

    Deaths
    4
     
    The mortality rate for Guangdong and Hong Kong are about the same, 0.5% and 0.4% respectively. Both are considerably lower than the estimated infection mortality rate in the boroughs of New York City, which I believe Steve calculated to be 0.9% based on the semi-randomized blood testing in front of grocery stores.

    Why such a large difference in mortality rates between NYC and Guangdong/HK?

    1. Is the percentage of infected in NYC actually twice higher than tested?
    2. Does NYC count the number of confirmed and probable deaths caused by covid 2x more liberally than in Guangdong/HK?
    3. Are both Guangdong and HK undercounting or missing the number of covid deaths more than most other places?

    And finally if coronavirus turns out to be about 4-5x more deadly than a bad flu season, what to do? While the virus would not be as devastating as feared, it is still too serious to go back to normal.

    Thanks.

    Do we have two different versions of the germ out there, a mild one in many places and a more lethal one in Italy and New York?

    Or did Italy and New York screw up badly in how to treat severe cases? Were there a lot of deaths due to triage in Italy/NY that wouldn’t have happened with less stressed hospitals?

    Or did the rest of the world’s doctors learn from Italy and New York’s travails?

    Or are the infection rate stats worthless and the IFR is the same everywhere?

    • Replies: @HA
    Do we have two different versions of the germ out there, a mild one in many places and a more lethal one in Italy and New York?

    Scientists have identified a new strain of the coronavirus that has become dominant worldwide and appears to be more contagious than the versions that spread in the early days of the COVID-19 pandemic, according to a new study led by scientists at Los Alamos National Laboratory.

    The new strain appeared in February in Europe, migrated quickly to the East Coast of the United States and has been the dominant strain across the world since mid-March, the scientists wrote.

    In addition to spreading faster, it may make people vulnerable to a second infection after a first bout with the disease, the report warned.
     

    Note the story seems to have originated from a Facebook posting and contains what seems to be glowing PR flakkery for the benefit of one of the researchers. So take it with a grain of salt -- something other than just science is going on here.

    But this does raise an interesting question -- does getting infected with the mild strain offer any immunity to the more lethal one? If so, then the weak strain -- when supplemented with the right dosage of HCQ/VitaminD/etc. so as to further limit any damage that it might inflict -- might be a "good enough" vaccine.

    , @Bill Jones
    " Were there a lot of deaths due to triage in Italy/NY that wouldn’t have happened with less stressed hospitals?"

    There were loud and long efforts to get as many ventilators in NYC as possible.

    There were a lot of deaths that seem to be attributable to ventilators. There use seemed to be contraindicated in many cases.

    There were substantial financial benefits for hospitals to use ventilators.

    Cuomo's decision to forcibly reintroduce diseased people back into nursing homes killed uncounted numbers.

  21. @The Alarmist

    Forced mask wearing is the first step in a multistep process that ends with jackbooted thugs kicking the door down to… uh… I’m sure there is a connection somehow, right?
     
    Actually, TPTB didn't think this fully through, as the masks screw up their massive investments in facial recognition camera networks.

    FYI:

    How China built facial recognition for people wearing masks

    The company now says its masked facial recognition program has reached 95 percent accuracy in lab tests, and even claims that it is more accurate in real life, where its cameras take multiple photos of a person if the first attempt to identify them fails.

    “The problem of masked facial recognition is not new, but belongs to the family of facial recognition with occlusion,” Mr Huang said, adding that his company had first encountered similar issues with people with beards in Turkey and Pakistan, as well as with northern Chinese customers wearing winter clothing that covered their ears and face.

    • Replies: @Joe Stalin
    I wonder if the CIA has purchased PRC facial recognition programs and run spoofing makeup against them to assess their limitations? Could you have quick applique spray on mask with a template if you wanted to do a quick escape and evasion? Eyeglasses with a half-mask that could be donned to emulate an innocuous person? A flesh-colored raccoon mask that could be laser printed with office equipment?
  22. Anonymous[290] • Disclaimer says:
    @The Alarmist

    Forced mask wearing is the first step in a multistep process that ends with jackbooted thugs kicking the door down to… uh… I’m sure there is a connection somehow, right?
     
    Actually, TPTB didn't think this fully through, as the masks screw up their massive investments in facial recognition camera networks.

    Yes, that is one of the reasons why I don’t get the “masks, omg!” sentiment. It’s the last thing TPTB want everyone to wear permanently as it screws with facial recognition.

  23. @The Alarmist

    But Singapore dropped the ball, big time, by overlooking its 400,000 low-paid foreign temporary workers, all of them unskilled labor, who live in fenced-off dorms, with up to 20 workers sleeping in a room in bunk beds.
     
    It's the immigrants ... it's always the immigrants.

    As PiltdownMan said: Singapore does *not* tolerate illegal immigration, and legal immigration is strictly controlled with an unapologetic, if unstated, racial hierarchy at work in who is considered as new citizens. The immigration here mainly comes from mainland China as a barely veiled mechanism to keep the city-state’s Han dominant ethnic balance in check, which presents its own problems, but is most definitely government sanctioned with controlled numbers.

    Guest workers are here to work: they have no contact with Singaporeans outside of their bosses. They overstay, they will probably earn a caning for their troubles, and it’ll be immediate deportation with a lifelong ban afterwards. They tell them this before they enter: after the contract is up, they leave, with no room for ambiguity.

    • Replies: @Znzn
    With respect, an American like you should be the last person on Earth to complain about income inequality in Singapore, considering that Singapore's Gini coefficient is 0.35, and the US' Gini coefficient is 0.47 according the the CIA factbook.https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/govts-use-different-data-to-compute-gini-figures-experts
  24. @nebulafox
    As PiltdownMan said: Singapore does *not* tolerate illegal immigration, and legal immigration is strictly controlled with an unapologetic, if unstated, racial hierarchy at work in who is considered as new citizens. The immigration here mainly comes from mainland China as a barely veiled mechanism to keep the city-state's Han dominant ethnic balance in check, which presents its own problems, but is most definitely government sanctioned with controlled numbers.

    Guest workers are here to work: they have no contact with Singaporeans outside of their bosses. They overstay, they will probably earn a caning for their troubles, and it'll be immediate deportation with a lifelong ban afterwards. They tell them this before they enter: after the contract is up, they leave, with no room for ambiguity.

    With respect, an American like you should be the last person on Earth to complain about income inequality in Singapore, considering that Singapore’s Gini coefficient is 0.35, and the US’ Gini coefficient is 0.47 according the the CIA factbook.https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/govts-use-different-data-to-compute-gini-figures-experts

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    One fringe-benefit of keeping indentured Bangladeshis in the category of non-citizen guest workers is ... they don't count for inclusion in the white man's statistics.

    Silly round eye. Gini coefficients are for tricks!
    , @Reg Cæsar

    With respect, an American like you should be the last person on Earth to complain about income inequality in Singapore, considering that Singapore’s Gini coefficient is 0.35, and the US’ Gini coefficient is 0.47 according the the CIA
     
    Gini = diversity
    , @nebulafox
    I'm not complaining about income inequality here: Singapore is an unapologetically pro-oligarchic place, but unlike in the US, the local top 10 percent still identify with the masses as their countrymen who should be given security for both moral and pragmatic reasons, and it shows. Working-class Singaporeans enjoy efficient public transport, a top-rate health care system, and do not have to live in a posh neighborhood for their kids to receive a good education.

    But let's not pretend that there isn't a non-trivial difference between how American and Singaporean society tend to view the rights of the imported labor contingent.

  25. Znzn says:

    White Anglos are just too lazy, decadent, selfish, and are too much of slobs to function well in a society compared to East Asians, they used to be able to compensate for that by having a slightly greater amount of inventiveness, back in the 19th to early 20th century, although once the East Asians caught on they were able to improve on things faster, like the Long Lance torpedo, optical rangefinders in WW2, Sony vs. RCA, or Toyota vs the Big Three, but now that is gone also, and now they are just lazy decadent disorganized selfish individualistic slobs.

    • Replies: @bigduke6
    Hi r/asianmasculinity!
  26. Just a thought on this one Steve; NHS cancer diagnoses are massively down.

    A lot of this is people being scared to visit a medical establishment due to WuFlu, which is bad as the disease will have progressed without treatment.

    But some analysis could be done at the end to see which cancers are actually down, not just delayed in diagnosis.

    Those would then be cancers which clearly were caused by viruses that lockdown had reduced the spread off.

    Then hunt the viruses.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Interesting idea.
    , @Travis
    Heart attacks are also down. Could be do to less driving to work. Study shows Even Passengers Risk Heart Attack in Heavy Traffic; Exhaust Fumes Blamed...Traffic Triples Heart Attack Risk. https://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/news/20090313/traffic-triples-heart-attack-risk

    Maybe the prophylactic use of hydroxychloroquine is also reducing Cardiovascular Events. Taking Hydroxychloroquine can Reduce Heart Risk by 17%. The anti-malarial drug lowers cholesterol and blood sugar and makes blood less sticky, which is good for reducing blood clots and heart attack risk...After controlling for such other factors and medication, lupus and RA patients currently using HCQ were 17 percent less likely to have a heart, stroke, or blood clot.

    When people stopped using HCQ more than a year ago, the risk of cardiovascular events was no different than those who had never been prescribed HCQ.
    https://creakyjoints.org/treatment/hydroxychloroquine-lowers-heart-risk-lupus-rheumatoid-arthritis/
  27. @Gordo
    Just a thought on this one Steve; NHS cancer diagnoses are massively down.

    A lot of this is people being scared to visit a medical establishment due to WuFlu, which is bad as the disease will have progressed without treatment.

    But some analysis could be done at the end to see which cancers are actually down, not just delayed in diagnosis.

    Those would then be cancers which clearly were caused by viruses that lockdown had reduced the spread off.

    Then hunt the viruses.

    Interesting idea.

  28. @Znzn
    White Anglos are just too lazy, decadent, selfish, and are too much of slobs to function well in a society compared to East Asians, they used to be able to compensate for that by having a slightly greater amount of inventiveness, back in the 19th to early 20th century, although once the East Asians caught on they were able to improve on things faster, like the Long Lance torpedo, optical rangefinders in WW2, Sony vs. RCA, or Toyota vs the Big Three, but now that is gone also, and now they are just lazy decadent disorganized selfish individualistic slobs.

    Hi r/asianmasculinity!

  29. @The Alarmist
    I loved being an expat in Singapore. I was treated like royalty, the place was clean and orderly, the food was great. All I had to do was obey the terms of my EP and obey the law, and everything else took care of itself. Well, I had to work too, but that was OK. Now that I think about it, I wonder if they'll still give me a PEP.

    tps://thethaiger.com/hot-news/crime/facebook-page-advocates-violence-against-shit-tourists-in-phuket he he

  30. Anon[291] • Disclaimer says:

    I’m wondering if death rate in warmer parts of Asia (like Southeast Asia) is much lower due to warmer and more humid weather.

    Also I don’t get how they can make enough masks for 4 billion people in Asia to change daily but we can’t make enough for 320 million here. Why isn’t 3M massively expanding their mask manufacturing capacity and running their factories 24×7? They just laid off a bunch of workers.

    This pandemic lays bare the problem with globalization. We need to bring back our manufacturing capability, and countries need to rely a lot less on international tourism as a source of income. Southern Europe is esp. exposed. Our universities also need to adjust to a new budget that cuts back on over reliance on international student fees. If this brings death to globalization, immigration, international travels, it’d be the one good thing that comes out of it.

    • Replies: @128
    Have you tried to commute to work in India. Bangladesh, or Indonesia?
  31. @Znzn
    With respect, an American like you should be the last person on Earth to complain about income inequality in Singapore, considering that Singapore's Gini coefficient is 0.35, and the US' Gini coefficient is 0.47 according the the CIA factbook.https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/govts-use-different-data-to-compute-gini-figures-experts

    One fringe-benefit of keeping indentured Bangladeshis in the category of non-citizen guest workers is … they don’t count for inclusion in the white man’s statistics.

    Silly round eye. Gini coefficients are for tricks!

    • Replies: @128
    They have work fare but it only applies it Singaporean citizens (or nationals?) One of the reasons why they do not have a minimum wage is that they would have to pay locals and foreigners the same wage rate if there was a minimum wage. And I am pretty sure the US gini figures do not include the wages of illegals right, since they do not pay income tax?
  32. My local golf course is open!

    The Chinese guys had masks on. The others did not. I didn’t see any women.

    Did you read the part in Newsom’s bio where he is dyslexic and had to have remedial schooling? Our governor is a certified air-head.

  33. Anonymous[414] • Disclaimer says:

    This is why things will only get worse in the US. Our over congested cities have a large number of poor who live in crowded apartments and homeless, and they don’t obey the law:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/05/opinion/coronavirus-homeless-san-francisco.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

    Lots of poor living in crowded apartments too in Asia but not that many homeless, and they obey the law.

    Thanks to the indulgent left, our poor and homeless live like it’s everyone else’s fault that they are poor and homeless, therefore nothing they do is their fault including crime and civil disobedience. Asian countries don’t put up with that kind of BS. On the surface it makes them harsh and cold, but sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind. It is the homeless and poor who will continue to keep this virus going in the West.

  34. @Gordo
    Just a thought on this one Steve; NHS cancer diagnoses are massively down.

    A lot of this is people being scared to visit a medical establishment due to WuFlu, which is bad as the disease will have progressed without treatment.

    But some analysis could be done at the end to see which cancers are actually down, not just delayed in diagnosis.

    Those would then be cancers which clearly were caused by viruses that lockdown had reduced the spread off.

    Then hunt the viruses.

    Heart attacks are also down. Could be do to less driving to work. Study shows Even Passengers Risk Heart Attack in Heavy Traffic; Exhaust Fumes Blamed…Traffic Triples Heart Attack Risk. https://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/news/20090313/traffic-triples-heart-attack-risk

    Maybe the prophylactic use of hydroxychloroquine is also reducing Cardiovascular Events. Taking Hydroxychloroquine can Reduce Heart Risk by 17%. The anti-malarial drug lowers cholesterol and blood sugar and makes blood less sticky, which is good for reducing blood clots and heart attack risk…After controlling for such other factors and medication, lupus and RA patients currently using HCQ were 17 percent less likely to have a heart, stroke, or blood clot.

    When people stopped using HCQ more than a year ago, the risk of cardiovascular events was no different than those who had never been prescribed HCQ.
    https://creakyjoints.org/treatment/hydroxychloroquine-lowers-heart-risk-lupus-rheumatoid-arthritis/

  35. @Anon7
    FYI:

    How China built facial recognition for people wearing masks

    The company now says its masked facial recognition program has reached 95 percent accuracy in lab tests, and even claims that it is more accurate in real life, where its cameras take multiple photos of a person if the first attempt to identify them fails.

    “The problem of masked facial recognition is not new, but belongs to the family of facial recognition with occlusion,” Mr Huang said, adding that his company had first encountered similar issues with people with beards in Turkey and Pakistan, as well as with northern Chinese customers wearing winter clothing that covered their ears and face.

    I wonder if the CIA has purchased PRC facial recognition programs and run spoofing makeup against them to assess their limitations? Could you have quick applique spray on mask with a template if you wanted to do a quick escape and evasion? Eyeglasses with a half-mask that could be donned to emulate an innocuous person? A flesh-colored raccoon mask that could be laser printed with office equipment?

    • LOL: Cortes
  36. 128 says:
    @Almost Missouri
    One fringe-benefit of keeping indentured Bangladeshis in the category of non-citizen guest workers is ... they don't count for inclusion in the white man's statistics.

    Silly round eye. Gini coefficients are for tricks!

    They have work fare but it only applies it Singaporean citizens (or nationals?) One of the reasons why they do not have a minimum wage is that they would have to pay locals and foreigners the same wage rate if there was a minimum wage. And I am pretty sure the US gini figures do not include the wages of illegals right, since they do not pay income tax?

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri

    "I am pretty sure the US gini figures do not include the wages of illegals right, since they do not pay income tax?"
     
    I assume not. Still, I suspect

    1) the illegal portion of the US workforce is proportionally smaller than guest worker portion of the Singapore labor force,

    2) the pay differential of Singapore guest workers vs. native workers is greater than the differential of US illegals vs. native workers, and

    3) the high end of Singapore includes a lot of off-book/off-shore fortunes that don't register in national statistics compared to the US.
  37. @Anon
    I'm wondering if death rate in warmer parts of Asia (like Southeast Asia) is much lower due to warmer and more humid weather.

    Also I don't get how they can make enough masks for 4 billion people in Asia to change daily but we can't make enough for 320 million here. Why isn't 3M massively expanding their mask manufacturing capacity and running their factories 24x7? They just laid off a bunch of workers.

    This pandemic lays bare the problem with globalization. We need to bring back our manufacturing capability, and countries need to rely a lot less on international tourism as a source of income. Southern Europe is esp. exposed. Our universities also need to adjust to a new budget that cuts back on over reliance on international student fees. If this brings death to globalization, immigration, international travels, it'd be the one good thing that comes out of it.

    Have you tried to commute to work in India. Bangladesh, or Indonesia?

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    Jakarta. Traffic.
  38. @Znzn
    With respect, an American like you should be the last person on Earth to complain about income inequality in Singapore, considering that Singapore's Gini coefficient is 0.35, and the US' Gini coefficient is 0.47 according the the CIA factbook.https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/govts-use-different-data-to-compute-gini-figures-experts

    With respect, an American like you should be the last person on Earth to complain about income inequality in Singapore, considering that Singapore’s Gini coefficient is 0.35, and the US’ Gini coefficient is 0.47 according the the CIA

    Gini = diversity

  39. Anonymous[414] • Disclaimer says:

    In that period, there’s been just a handful of new cases, all in people arriving at the airport from overseas.

    A new test has just been approved that can return result in 15 minutes like a pregnancy test. Such a test should be administered at all airports. All passengers must pass the test before they can be allowed to board a plane. This is the only way to stop this virus from spreading across borders through travelers. By the time they get into the country, it’s too late. They’ve probably infected a bunch of people on the airplane, and it’s also far more difficult to enforce a self-quarantine.

  40. What does the old Indochina region know that other places don’t? Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam combined have roughly 400 cases and zero deaths. Thailand, 54 deaths. Adding in Myanmar gets you to 60 deaths. That is a big slice of Earth with many geographic and commercial links with China.

    Southeast Asia’s experience lends weight to the heat-and-humidity theory. That said, one is hard-pressed to find anywhere in the Far East that’s been hit hard by the virus.

  41. Anonymous[270] • Disclaimer says:
    @Stephen Dodge
    I love Chinese people, who are generally good-hearted, and I love Chinese art and poetry and civilization but I am going to put this out there right now, for all the people who read this and who have no idea how foolish it is to mockingly compare one country to another.

    If this is a one in 20 year flu season, the people who were responsible will live long lives with no worries.

    But .... If this turns out to be worse than a one in 20 years bad flu season, if this is a season where America suffers at a hundred times or so what, say, Korea or Hong Kong or Peking suffers, God help you all who did not care about the suffering of the poor in America.

    If that is the case, it will be at least a hundred years from now before Chinese people rule in Asian countries, or anywhere else. Believe me, there is absolutely no way that, if this pandemic is a hundred times harder on Americans than Asians, that there will be a single square mile in China that is not ruled over by non-Chinese for the next hundred years. At least.

    Believe me, there is absolutely no way that, if this pandemic is a hundred times harder on Americans than Asians, that there will be a single square mile in China that is not ruled over by non-Chinese for the next hundred years. At least.

    And that will be achieved … how? Got a plan? LMAO.

    I suppose it’s an inevitable consequence of Unz Review/iSteve becoming more popular but the significant rise in the number of completely unhinged posters is very notable.

    • Replies: @jbwilson24
    "I suppose it’s an inevitable consequence of Unz Review/iSteve becoming more popular but the significant rise in the number of completely unhinged posters is very notable."

    Yep, I've noticed that the quality has dropped, albeit I'm not above slinging the odd insult myself.

    Why is it that you show up as 'anonymous', though?
    , @Stephen Dodge
    anonymous 270, we can play your sub-logical mathlete games all you want. You ain't ever gonna win unless you bring a little more game.

    I know history, and i know how empires fall.

    Tell me, if you think you are not unhinged and I am, about your theories of Confucianism, the mandate of Heaven, and the various differences between Mongols and Han Chinese.

    Tell me about your studies in Asian languages and cultures, and then I will tell you about mine.

    Maybe you can, maybe you can't.

    You seem really ignorant and unhinged yourself, based on what you have said, I hope I am wrong.

    , @anon
    I suppose it’s an inevitable consequence of Unz Review/iSteve becoming more popular but the significant rise in the number of completely unhinged posters is very notable.

    Unhinged can be entertaining. It's the dumb boxes-of-roxes who are too stupid to follow a basic syllogism or peck a couple of words into a search engine once in a while that are tiresomely tedious.

    Of course, that category includes any number of regulars from the good-old-days. Maybe we shouldn't go too far down that road.
  42. Given the observations that Wuhan Flu is far more dangerous to those with commodities based upon obesity and its harmful health effects (diabetes, heart/strokes, kidney disease, certain cancers) it is worth noting that in most Asian countries obesity is less often found.

    The diets are a big part of that, plus far more walking, as opposed to riding.

    If you take big city blacks out of the US equation, you might find it looking more like China/Taiwan/S. Korea. Obesity has N = 1 in N. Korea, from what I’ve seen. And he was severely quarantining himself as per the news. Being young and thin doesn’t guarantee survival, but it helps.

    American Hispanics also tend to obesity/diabetes etc. but they skew much younger overall. Plus many of them are doing physical labor which mitigates dietary problems. It is mostly the older, richer ones who gain weight, just like whites. Plus they aren’t demographically bunched into large, mostly cold northern cities.

    It won’t be for years until we finally have good data on who is/was most at risk and the details of why. Other than simple age and underlying bad health.

  43. @DW
    The situation in South Korea is much the same as in Hong Kong.

    -Zero new cases of community transmission; only "imported"
    -Social distancing guidelines to be eased from Wednesday (karaokes, gyms, etc. reopening)
    -Kids going back to school from next week
    -Baseball season began on Tuesday, to be followed next week by soccer
    -About 60% of people wearing masks, down from 90+% (except public transport)

    There was never any fuss about putting masks on. Only surprised at the willingness to take them off.

    -Baseball season began on Tuesday, to be followed next week by soccer

    ESPN has started coverage of the Korean baseball league, just to have something to draw eyeballs.

  44. @PiltdownMan
    They're not actually immigrants. They are guest workers, with work permits that can be revoked by their employers. Singapore deports any workers who moonlight or break the conditions of their limited purpose work permit visas. In a well-publicized case a few years ago, it deported a bunch of them by driving them to the airport, destroying their suitcases in front of them, and putting them on an outbound plane.

    ” it deported a bunch of them by driving them to the airport, destroying their suitcases in front of them, and putting them on an outbound plane.”

    Ah, I love East Asians. Not afraid to defend their cultures and put the boot down on foreigners who cause problems. Caning people for spitting gum on the street is something that makes me smile, although from the videos it isn’t nearly bloody enough.

    China will deport permanent residents for any criminal action, Russia will kick out permanent residents for 3 adminsitrative infractions. Meanwhile Sweden lets serial gang rapists stay, providing them with welfare and iPhones.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    Singapore is *way* more lax today than it was 20 years ago, let alone 40 years ago. Go to Woodlands station: you'll see plenty of litter.
  45. @Anonymous

    Believe me, there is absolutely no way that, if this pandemic is a hundred times harder on Americans than Asians, that there will be a single square mile in China that is not ruled over by non-Chinese for the next hundred years. At least.
     
    And that will be achieved ... how? Got a plan? LMAO.

    I suppose it's an inevitable consequence of Unz Review/iSteve becoming more popular but the significant rise in the number of completely unhinged posters is very notable.

    “I suppose it’s an inevitable consequence of Unz Review/iSteve becoming more popular but the significant rise in the number of completely unhinged posters is very notable.”

    Yep, I’ve noticed that the quality has dropped, albeit I’m not above slinging the odd insult myself.

    Why is it that you show up as ‘anonymous’, though?

  46. @The Alarmist

    Forced mask wearing is the first step in a multistep process that ends with jackbooted thugs kicking the door down to… uh… I’m sure there is a connection somehow, right?
     
    Actually, TPTB didn't think this fully through, as the masks screw up their massive investments in facial recognition camera networks.

    Not to worry, as soon as your subcutaneous Bill Gates/Gates of Hell ID nanochip has been implanted, they will be able to track you just fine.

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    In a sane world ....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaqNXE730Wk
  47. @128
    Have you tried to commute to work in India. Bangladesh, or Indonesia?

    Jakarta. Traffic.

  48. @Stephen Dodge
    I love Chinese people, who are generally good-hearted, and I love Chinese art and poetry and civilization but I am going to put this out there right now, for all the people who read this and who have no idea how foolish it is to mockingly compare one country to another.

    If this is a one in 20 year flu season, the people who were responsible will live long lives with no worries.

    But .... If this turns out to be worse than a one in 20 years bad flu season, if this is a season where America suffers at a hundred times or so what, say, Korea or Hong Kong or Peking suffers, God help you all who did not care about the suffering of the poor in America.

    If that is the case, it will be at least a hundred years from now before Chinese people rule in Asian countries, or anywhere else. Believe me, there is absolutely no way that, if this pandemic is a hundred times harder on Americans than Asians, that there will be a single square mile in China that is not ruled over by non-Chinese for the next hundred years. At least.

    “If that is the case, it will be at least a hundred years from now before Chinese people rule in Asian countries, or anywhere else. Believe me, there is absolutely no way that, if this pandemic is a hundred times harder on Americans than Asians, that there will be a single square mile in China that is not ruled over by non-Chinese for the next hundred years. At least.”

    Your theory is that the US will military invade and occupy China? I guess, technically it might be possible if you use enough nukes, but that would be pretty unhinged and basically genocidal.

    • Replies: @Stephen Dodge
    No, not the US military.

    Basically, China would be ruled by coopted Chinese with connections to the foreign people whose loved ones were killed by CCP bungling and then who desired to get revenge, and gathered together to do so. This is how, by the way, the Chinese seek to rule Hong Kong and Taiwan, even now, by ruling trough co-opted locals (with different motives than revenge, of course).

    This (rule by coopted people who support foreign powers) has been often the case in countries with Confucian or Hindu origins. Because the mandate of heaven is something the folk believe in , and when that mandate is lost, the populace is willing to undergo submission to foreign powers, general indirect submission, to save face, but submission nonetheless.

    I love the Chinese people, and I really hope that does not happen, but the bunglers at the CCP are capable of bringing very bad things down on their heads if two things happen (a) they do not dial down their arrogance, and (b) the scenario I indicated, where they unapologetically cause millions and millions of deaths in nations where they are not loved, come to pass.

  49. @Anonymous

    Believe me, there is absolutely no way that, if this pandemic is a hundred times harder on Americans than Asians, that there will be a single square mile in China that is not ruled over by non-Chinese for the next hundred years. At least.
     
    And that will be achieved ... how? Got a plan? LMAO.

    I suppose it's an inevitable consequence of Unz Review/iSteve becoming more popular but the significant rise in the number of completely unhinged posters is very notable.

    anonymous 270, we can play your sub-logical mathlete games all you want. You ain’t ever gonna win unless you bring a little more game.

    I know history, and i know how empires fall.

    Tell me, if you think you are not unhinged and I am, about your theories of Confucianism, the mandate of Heaven, and the various differences between Mongols and Han Chinese.

    Tell me about your studies in Asian languages and cultures, and then I will tell you about mine.

    Maybe you can, maybe you can’t.

    You seem really ignorant and unhinged yourself, based on what you have said, I hope I am wrong.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Nah, to be more accurate: you're full of it. CCP is about power and domestic control, and as neither is affected, they will not go anywhere.

    Your rambles are of the same fantasies since 1890 and demonstrate extreme lack of knowledge of China and Chinese people(btw, Yuan was extremely short-lived).
  50. @allensheep
    "If that is the case, it will be at least a hundred years from now before Chinese people rule in Asian countries, or anywhere else. Believe me, there is absolutely no way that, if this pandemic is a hundred times harder on Americans than Asians, that there will be a single square mile in China that is not ruled over by non-Chinese for the next hundred years. At least."

    Your theory is that the US will military invade and occupy China? I guess, technically it might be possible if you use enough nukes, but that would be pretty unhinged and basically genocidal.

    No, not the US military.

    Basically, China would be ruled by coopted Chinese with connections to the foreign people whose loved ones were killed by CCP bungling and then who desired to get revenge, and gathered together to do so. This is how, by the way, the Chinese seek to rule Hong Kong and Taiwan, even now, by ruling trough co-opted locals (with different motives than revenge, of course).

    This (rule by coopted people who support foreign powers) has been often the case in countries with Confucian or Hindu origins. Because the mandate of heaven is something the folk believe in , and when that mandate is lost, the populace is willing to undergo submission to foreign powers, general indirect submission, to save face, but submission nonetheless.

    I love the Chinese people, and I really hope that does not happen, but the bunglers at the CCP are capable of bringing very bad things down on their heads if two things happen (a) they do not dial down their arrogance, and (b) the scenario I indicated, where they unapologetically cause millions and millions of deaths in nations where they are not loved, come to pass.

    • Replies: @The Germ Theory of Disease
    (SFX: Giant Chinese gong sounds. Enter DR. FU MANCHU with his retinue, accompanied by NUMBER ONE SON.)

    DR. FU: Ah-so, Doctor Dodge, at rast we meet. Wercome to my sinister Chinese rair. Your knowredge of China is as vast as the Yang-tze, as deep as the ravines of the White Rotus Monastery. Can I offer you some opium, or tea?

    STEPHEN DODGE: (mellifluous stream of neo-Confucian scholarly references, spoken in fluent classical Mandarin)

    DR. FU: Ah-so, I see you know the crassics. Risten well to Dr. Dodge, Number-One Son. He understand China better than Rao-Tzu himserf!

    NUMBER ONE SON: "Number One Son" is from Charlie Chan, not Fu Manchu.

    DR. FU: You be quiet! Give me face! (aside). "Rosing face" is another ancient Chinese concept, I am sure Dr. Dodge understands my meaning perfectly! Such is his knowredge of China!

    SFX: GONG

  51. jon says:
    @DW
    The situation in South Korea is much the same as in Hong Kong.

    -Zero new cases of community transmission; only "imported"
    -Social distancing guidelines to be eased from Wednesday (karaokes, gyms, etc. reopening)
    -Kids going back to school from next week
    -Baseball season began on Tuesday, to be followed next week by soccer
    -About 60% of people wearing masks, down from 90+% (except public transport)

    There was never any fuss about putting masks on. Only surprised at the willingness to take them off.

    With regard to Korea, I’ll add that, except for the schools, nothing was mandatory. All of the closings/reductions and social distancing stuff was voluntary. Even Daegu, which everyone thought was going to be the next Wuhan when that cult breakout started, never had any kind of quarantine or curfew. And now it looks like things are about to wind down with a death toll of just over 250.

    Masks and and aggressive testing/tracing were all the world needed, but instead we have this clusterfuck in Europe, America …

  52. @Stephen Dodge
    No, not the US military.

    Basically, China would be ruled by coopted Chinese with connections to the foreign people whose loved ones were killed by CCP bungling and then who desired to get revenge, and gathered together to do so. This is how, by the way, the Chinese seek to rule Hong Kong and Taiwan, even now, by ruling trough co-opted locals (with different motives than revenge, of course).

    This (rule by coopted people who support foreign powers) has been often the case in countries with Confucian or Hindu origins. Because the mandate of heaven is something the folk believe in , and when that mandate is lost, the populace is willing to undergo submission to foreign powers, general indirect submission, to save face, but submission nonetheless.

    I love the Chinese people, and I really hope that does not happen, but the bunglers at the CCP are capable of bringing very bad things down on their heads if two things happen (a) they do not dial down their arrogance, and (b) the scenario I indicated, where they unapologetically cause millions and millions of deaths in nations where they are not loved, come to pass.

    (SFX: Giant Chinese gong sounds. Enter DR. FU MANCHU with his retinue, accompanied by NUMBER ONE SON.)

    DR. FU: Ah-so, Doctor Dodge, at rast we meet. Wercome to my sinister Chinese rair. Your knowredge of China is as vast as the Yang-tze, as deep as the ravines of the White Rotus Monastery. Can I offer you some opium, or tea?

    STEPHEN DODGE: (mellifluous stream of neo-Confucian scholarly references, spoken in fluent classical Mandarin)

    DR. FU: Ah-so, I see you know the crassics. Risten well to Dr. Dodge, Number-One Son. He understand China better than Rao-Tzu himserf!

    NUMBER ONE SON: “Number One Son” is from Charlie Chan, not Fu Manchu.

    DR. FU: You be quiet! Give me face! (aside). “Rosing face” is another ancient Chinese concept, I am sure Dr. Dodge understands my meaning perfectly! Such is his knowredge of China!

    SFX: GONG

    • Replies: @Stephen Dodge
    The Chinese are a good hearted people, as am I,and I thought that was funny, even if your sophomoric concept of humor based on labial consonants was, let us say, extremely tlite.

    Seriously, though, if I wanted to, I could be a Sterling Professor of Oriental Languages - or, as a card like you might put it, Oliental language, at Yale 12 months from now. But of course I do not want that.

  53. HA says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Thanks.

    Do we have two different versions of the germ out there, a mild one in many places and a more lethal one in Italy and New York?

    Or did Italy and New York screw up badly in how to treat severe cases? Were there a lot of deaths due to triage in Italy/NY that wouldn't have happened with less stressed hospitals?

    Or did the rest of the world's doctors learn from Italy and New York's travails?

    Or are the infection rate stats worthless and the IFR is the same everywhere?

    Do we have two different versions of the germ out there, a mild one in many places and a more lethal one in Italy and New York?

    Scientists have identified a new strain of the coronavirus that has become dominant worldwide and appears to be more contagious than the versions that spread in the early days of the COVID-19 pandemic, according to a new study led by scientists at Los Alamos National Laboratory.

    The new strain appeared in February in Europe, migrated quickly to the East Coast of the United States and has been the dominant strain across the world since mid-March, the scientists wrote.

    In addition to spreading faster, it may make people vulnerable to a second infection after a first bout with the disease, the report warned.

    Note the story seems to have originated from a Facebook posting and contains what seems to be glowing PR flakkery for the benefit of one of the researchers. So take it with a grain of salt — something other than just science is going on here.

    But this does raise an interesting question — does getting infected with the mild strain offer any immunity to the more lethal one? If so, then the weak strain — when supplemented with the right dosage of HCQ/VitaminD/etc. so as to further limit any damage that it might inflict — might be a “good enough” vaccine.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    That there is a more virulent Italian strain is well accepted, it is the dominant strain in Europe and the East Coast. Soon to be appearing in Asia.
  54. @The Germ Theory of Disease
    (SFX: Giant Chinese gong sounds. Enter DR. FU MANCHU with his retinue, accompanied by NUMBER ONE SON.)

    DR. FU: Ah-so, Doctor Dodge, at rast we meet. Wercome to my sinister Chinese rair. Your knowredge of China is as vast as the Yang-tze, as deep as the ravines of the White Rotus Monastery. Can I offer you some opium, or tea?

    STEPHEN DODGE: (mellifluous stream of neo-Confucian scholarly references, spoken in fluent classical Mandarin)

    DR. FU: Ah-so, I see you know the crassics. Risten well to Dr. Dodge, Number-One Son. He understand China better than Rao-Tzu himserf!

    NUMBER ONE SON: "Number One Son" is from Charlie Chan, not Fu Manchu.

    DR. FU: You be quiet! Give me face! (aside). "Rosing face" is another ancient Chinese concept, I am sure Dr. Dodge understands my meaning perfectly! Such is his knowredge of China!

    SFX: GONG

    The Chinese are a good hearted people, as am I,and I thought that was funny, even if your sophomoric concept of humor based on labial consonants was, let us say, extremely tlite.

    Seriously, though, if I wanted to, I could be a Sterling Professor of Oriental Languages – or, as a card like you might put it, Oliental language, at Yale 12 months from now. But of course I do not want that.

    • Replies: @Stephen Dodge
    now shush, the grown-ups are talking.
  55. @Stephen Dodge
    The Chinese are a good hearted people, as am I,and I thought that was funny, even if your sophomoric concept of humor based on labial consonants was, let us say, extremely tlite.

    Seriously, though, if I wanted to, I could be a Sterling Professor of Oriental Languages - or, as a card like you might put it, Oliental language, at Yale 12 months from now. But of course I do not want that.

    now shush, the grown-ups are talking.

  56. @128
    They have work fare but it only applies it Singaporean citizens (or nationals?) One of the reasons why they do not have a minimum wage is that they would have to pay locals and foreigners the same wage rate if there was a minimum wage. And I am pretty sure the US gini figures do not include the wages of illegals right, since they do not pay income tax?

    “I am pretty sure the US gini figures do not include the wages of illegals right, since they do not pay income tax?”

    I assume not. Still, I suspect

    1) the illegal portion of the US workforce is proportionally smaller than guest worker portion of the Singapore labor force,

    2) the pay differential of Singapore guest workers vs. native workers is greater than the differential of US illegals vs. native workers, and

    3) the high end of Singapore includes a lot of off-book/off-shore fortunes that don’t register in national statistics compared to the US.

  57. anon[820] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    Believe me, there is absolutely no way that, if this pandemic is a hundred times harder on Americans than Asians, that there will be a single square mile in China that is not ruled over by non-Chinese for the next hundred years. At least.
     
    And that will be achieved ... how? Got a plan? LMAO.

    I suppose it's an inevitable consequence of Unz Review/iSteve becoming more popular but the significant rise in the number of completely unhinged posters is very notable.

    I suppose it’s an inevitable consequence of Unz Review/iSteve becoming more popular but the significant rise in the number of completely unhinged posters is very notable.

    Unhinged can be entertaining. It’s the dumb boxes-of-roxes who are too stupid to follow a basic syllogism or peck a couple of words into a search engine once in a while that are tiresomely tedious.

    Of course, that category includes any number of regulars from the good-old-days. Maybe we shouldn’t go too far down that road.

  58. @PiltdownMan
    They're not actually immigrants. They are guest workers, with work permits that can be revoked by their employers. Singapore deports any workers who moonlight or break the conditions of their limited purpose work permit visas. In a well-publicized case a few years ago, it deported a bunch of them by driving them to the airport, destroying their suitcases in front of them, and putting them on an outbound plane.

    There doesn’t seem to be much difference between guest workers and slaves. I guess mankind really does have an innate hankering after having slaves do grunt work, the late Victorian/Edwardian European cohesive society, as perhaps exemplified by White Australia, really seems like an anomaly.

  59. @HA
    Do we have two different versions of the germ out there, a mild one in many places and a more lethal one in Italy and New York?

    Scientists have identified a new strain of the coronavirus that has become dominant worldwide and appears to be more contagious than the versions that spread in the early days of the COVID-19 pandemic, according to a new study led by scientists at Los Alamos National Laboratory.

    The new strain appeared in February in Europe, migrated quickly to the East Coast of the United States and has been the dominant strain across the world since mid-March, the scientists wrote.

    In addition to spreading faster, it may make people vulnerable to a second infection after a first bout with the disease, the report warned.
     

    Note the story seems to have originated from a Facebook posting and contains what seems to be glowing PR flakkery for the benefit of one of the researchers. So take it with a grain of salt -- something other than just science is going on here.

    But this does raise an interesting question -- does getting infected with the mild strain offer any immunity to the more lethal one? If so, then the weak strain -- when supplemented with the right dosage of HCQ/VitaminD/etc. so as to further limit any damage that it might inflict -- might be a "good enough" vaccine.

    That there is a more virulent Italian strain is well accepted, it is the dominant strain in Europe and the East Coast. Soon to be appearing in Asia.

  60. @Znzn
    With respect, an American like you should be the last person on Earth to complain about income inequality in Singapore, considering that Singapore's Gini coefficient is 0.35, and the US' Gini coefficient is 0.47 according the the CIA factbook.https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/govts-use-different-data-to-compute-gini-figures-experts

    I’m not complaining about income inequality here: Singapore is an unapologetically pro-oligarchic place, but unlike in the US, the local top 10 percent still identify with the masses as their countrymen who should be given security for both moral and pragmatic reasons, and it shows. Working-class Singaporeans enjoy efficient public transport, a top-rate health care system, and do not have to live in a posh neighborhood for their kids to receive a good education.

    But let’s not pretend that there isn’t a non-trivial difference between how American and Singaporean society tend to view the rights of the imported labor contingent.

  61. @jbwilson24
    " it deported a bunch of them by driving them to the airport, destroying their suitcases in front of them, and putting them on an outbound plane."

    Ah, I love East Asians. Not afraid to defend their cultures and put the boot down on foreigners who cause problems. Caning people for spitting gum on the street is something that makes me smile, although from the videos it isn't nearly bloody enough.

    China will deport permanent residents for any criminal action, Russia will kick out permanent residents for 3 adminsitrative infractions. Meanwhile Sweden lets serial gang rapists stay, providing them with welfare and iPhones.

    Singapore is *way* more lax today than it was 20 years ago, let alone 40 years ago. Go to Woodlands station: you’ll see plenty of litter.

  62. @Stephen Dodge
    anonymous 270, we can play your sub-logical mathlete games all you want. You ain't ever gonna win unless you bring a little more game.

    I know history, and i know how empires fall.

    Tell me, if you think you are not unhinged and I am, about your theories of Confucianism, the mandate of Heaven, and the various differences between Mongols and Han Chinese.

    Tell me about your studies in Asian languages and cultures, and then I will tell you about mine.

    Maybe you can, maybe you can't.

    You seem really ignorant and unhinged yourself, based on what you have said, I hope I am wrong.

    Nah, to be more accurate: you’re full of it. CCP is about power and domestic control, and as neither is affected, they will not go anywhere.

    Your rambles are of the same fantasies since 1890 and demonstrate extreme lack of knowledge of China and Chinese people(btw, Yuan was extremely short-lived).

  63. @Buck Ransom
    Not to worry, as soon as your subcutaneous Bill Gates/Gates of Hell ID nanochip has been implanted, they will be able to track you just fine.

    In a sane world ….

  64. @Andrew M
    It’s noteworthy that Hong Kong and Singapore basically achieved all this just with masks. Yes there was contact-tracing too, but in such built-up crowded cities where everybody shares the same elevators and subways, I’m sceptical of how effective it can be.

    It’s amazing what can happen when your top disease agency actually tells people to wear masks instead of saying that masks are bad and the real virus is racism

  65. @Steve Sailer
    Thanks.

    Do we have two different versions of the germ out there, a mild one in many places and a more lethal one in Italy and New York?

    Or did Italy and New York screw up badly in how to treat severe cases? Were there a lot of deaths due to triage in Italy/NY that wouldn't have happened with less stressed hospitals?

    Or did the rest of the world's doctors learn from Italy and New York's travails?

    Or are the infection rate stats worthless and the IFR is the same everywhere?

    ” Were there a lot of deaths due to triage in Italy/NY that wouldn’t have happened with less stressed hospitals?”

    There were loud and long efforts to get as many ventilators in NYC as possible.

    There were a lot of deaths that seem to be attributable to ventilators. There use seemed to be contraindicated in many cases.

    There were substantial financial benefits for hospitals to use ventilators.

    Cuomo’s decision to forcibly reintroduce diseased people back into nursing homes killed uncounted numbers.

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