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Kitty Genovese's Murderer Finally Dies
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From the NYT:

Winston Moseley, Who Killed Kitty Genovese, Dies in Prison at 81
By ROBERT D. McFADDEN APRIL 4, 2016

Winston Moseley, who stalked, raped and killed Kitty Genovese in a prolonged knife attack in New York in 1964 while neighbors failed to act on her desperate cries for help — a nightmarish tableau that came to symbolize urban apathy in America — died on March 28, in prison. He was 81. …

Mr. Moseley, a psychopathic serial killer and necrophiliac, died at the maximum security Clinton Correctional Facility in Dannemora, N.Y., near the Canadian border. He had been imprisoned for almost 52 years, since July 7, 1964, and was one of the state’s longest-serving inmates.

His life behind bars had been relatively eventful. Mr. Moseley was condemned to die in the electric chair, but in 1967, two years after New York State abolished most capital punishments, he won an appeal that reduced his sentence to an indeterminate life term. While at Attica Correctional Facility, in 1968, he escaped while on a hospital visit to Buffalo, raped a woman and held hostages at gunpoint before being recaptured. He joined in the 1971 Attica uprising; earned a college degree in 1977; and was rejected 18 times at parole hearings, the last time in 2015.

Last year, I blogged:

When I was growing up in the 1960s and 1970s, one of the most famous Moral Lessons of Our Time was the 1964 murder of Kitty Genovese. It came up all the time in editorials, sermons, graduation speeches, and other forms of upbraiding uplift: All Americans were guilty of apathy, of not wanting to get involved.

The one thing the murder of Kitty Genovese didn’t have much to do with in the respectable discourse of the time was crime. Or if it did, it was proof that Society’s Apathy was preventing us from dealing with the Root Causes of Crime, such as poverty.

The official lesson that respectable, law-abiding citizens were to blame for the woman’s murder was driven home by the famous first sentence of the New York Times article about

“For more than half an hour thirty-eight respectable, law-abiding citizens in Queens watched a killer stalk and stab a woman in three separate attacks in Kew Gardens.”

That turns out to have been quite exaggerated, although still true to some extent.

… the Kitty Genovese parable was usually presented in a morally bullying Sixties fashion about What’s Wrong With Society. That’s why Kitty Genovese is in all the Social Psychology textbooks — not to remind you to call 911 if you hear something suspicious, but because it’s part of the narrative of American Society’s Guilt.

But the more I think about the Kitty Genovese story, the more I think it reflects the kind of distractionary tactics we’ve should have become familiar with since then. The story was pushed hard by NYT editor A.M. Rosenthal, who was kind of a genius and kind of not quite right in the head. …

There really were big, frightening changes going on in American society in 1964, and the Kitty Genovese case was reflective of them, but they weren’t ones that we were supposed to talk about. So we all ended up talking obediently about Apathy.

Looking back, Kitty Genovese’s murder seems reflective of two big 1960s changes, just not the ones we were supposed to notice:

First, I had never heard until very recently that the murderer, Winston Moseley, was black. A historic black crime wave was washing over New York City in 1964, but the race of the confessed killer wasn’t mentioned in the famous NYT article. In fact, I don’t recall the killer’s race ever being mentioned in the 1960s/1970s. As a child, I just assumed he looked like all the muggers in cartoons then. I can see now that mentioning that the killer was black would have been distracting from the political lessons White America was supposed to be drawing at the climax of the Civil Rights era.

As feminist Susan Brownmiller pointed out in the 1970s, sex crimes tended to have political connotations. The big increase in black-on-white sex crimes in New York City, Brownmiller suggested, wasn’t unrelated to the black liberation and black power ideology. (Brownmiller called out the Left’s celebration of books by Franz Fanon and boastful rapist Eldridge Cleaver as indicative.) But that’s complicated and distasteful, so let talk about Apathy.

As D. K. points out in the comments, the New York Times article and Rosenthal’s subsequent book didn’t mention that the murder started out as an attempted rape. I would guess that there were multiple reasons for this, but likely there’s nothing more sensitive for liberals than black men raping white women, since it seems to be a side effect of black liberation (e.g., Reconstruction, the 1960s, and South Africa in the Mandela Era). …

Now that I think about it, I’m struck that I never noticed Moseley’s story before because it’s so familiar. He sounds like he was made up by irate Silent Majority callers to talk radio complaining about liberal judges. Of course, the callers probably were referring to Moseley. His further adventures were covered in the newspapers, but Moseley didn’t become part of The Narrative of the era. The Narrative is controlled in the retelling of the story.

 
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  1. I read somewhere that the story about the neighbors ignoring the screams was debunked.

  2. Good point about the narrative. Maybe that’s why songwriters took to this subject. There were two minor hit songs related to it in 1967: Phil Ochs’ “A Small Circle of Friends” and the Jet Stream’s “All’s Quiet on West 23rd,” the latter of which was co-written by bubblegum music maven Joey Levine.

    Both songs focus on the neighbors, not the killer and probably took their cue from media coverage. Neither single got beyond the Bubbling Under the Hot 100 chart, however, so the public’s appetite for dramatizing this event was clearly limited.

  3. At his first parole hearing in 1984, Winston Moseley made a memorable statement, explaining that he was the real victim of the murder, not Genovese or Annie Mae Johnson, another woman he confessed to having stabbed to death. He was quoted in the New York Daily News:

    “For a victim outside, it’s a one-time or one-hour or one-minute affair, but for the person who’s caught, it’s forever.”

    The commissioner was clearly shocked, responding, “Well, that’s one way to look at it . . . Miss Genovese and Miss Johnson are no longer with us. . . . But you’re here . . . at least it’s debatable that you’re as bad off as Miss Genovese.”

    Later, after telling a commissioner he “never intended to kill Miss Genovese,” Moseley said, “What happened then would be called mugging. . . . People do kill people when they mug them sometimes.”

    In 1968 he escaped from a hospital in Buffalo, tied up a husband and wife and raped the woman in front of the husband. At one parole hearing, Moseley revealed he had written the victims a letter “to apologize . . . for the inconvenience I caused.

    A commissioner answered, “That’s a good way to say it. They were ‘inconvenienced.’”

    In a 1990 hearing, he said that during the rape, “No one was hurt.”

    A commissioner responded, “Someone was hurt. You don’t rape someone without them being injured.”

    “Physically injured,” Moseley corrected.

    That’s a real insight into the workings of the criminal mind.
    http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/news/kitty-killer-victim-notoriety-hurt-article-1.697583#ixzz2KObo4Wza

    • Replies: @Big Bill
    Wow. The school-to-prison pipeline was at work way back then in 1964. A brutha just can't catch a break.
    , @ScarletNumber
    He is clever, I will give him that.
    , @Stebbing Heuer
    Garden-variety psychopathy. I'm glad the authorities had the sense to detain him indefinitely.
    , @The Man From K Street

    “For a victim outside, it’s a one-time or one-hour or one-minute affair, but for the person who’s caught, it’s forever.”
     
    That's on a par with Sirhan Sirhan's complaint to his parole board that "I sincerely believe that if Robert Kennedy were alive today, I believe he would not countenance singling me out for this kind of treatment."
    , @Buffalo Joe
    Harry, My best friend, an attorney, was assigned to represent Mosley at one of his parole hearings. My friend let Mosley ramble on, telling the commissioners that he no longer was a threat to rape any one, because he masturbated every chance he had, parole denied, thankfully.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    That’s a real insight into the workings of the criminal mind.
     
    And the defense attorney's as well.

    Ruth Bader Ginsburg's last argued case, Duren v Missouri, was the one that forced women onto juries for good. She made a feminist case, but that's not what Duren and his attorneys had in mind.

    No, defense attorneys were pushing to kill the womens' optional exemption for years because women were significantly more reluctant than men to convict. The law itself was popular with the public; most women took advantage of it, and men didn't complain, either. If it ain't broke, don't neuter it.

    The only women who cheered the decision were the mothers of crooks!
    , @Dr. X

    “For a victim outside, it’s a one-time or one-hour or one-minute affair, but for the person who’s caught, it’s forever.”

    The commissioner was clearly shocked, responding, “Well, that’s one way to look at it . . . Miss Genovese and Miss Johnson are no longer with us. . . . But you’re here . . . at least it’s debatable that you’re as bad off as Miss Genovese.”

    Later, after telling a commissioner he “never intended to kill Miss Genovese,” Moseley said, “What happened then would be called mugging. . . . People do kill people when they mug them sometimes.”

    In 1968 he escaped from a hospital in Buffalo, tied up a husband and wife and raped the woman in front of the husband. At one parole hearing, Moseley revealed he had written the victims a letter “to apologize . . . for the inconvenience I caused.

    A commissioner answered, “That’s a good way to say it. They were ‘inconvenienced.’”

    In a 1990 hearing, he said that during the rape, “No one was hurt.”

    A commissioner responded, “Someone was hurt. You don’t rape someone without them being injured.”

    “Physically injured,” Moseley corrected.
     

    It's worth noting, after one reads this, that New York State has 1) outlawed capital punishment, and 2) made it nearly impossible to carry or even own a handgun for self-defense. It can take over a year to obtain an New York license to merely OWN a handgun, the issuance of which is completely discretionary. Carrying it is another matter entirely. The license is revocable at any time for any reason.

    New York is also a "duty to retreat" state -- meaning that if you are attacked by someone, YOU must prove to the jury that you tried to run away from the criminal before you defended yourself.

    In other words, the narrative that crime is "society's fault" has real-world consequences -- the laws of New York essentially side with the criminal, and against the honest citizen.

    The Left would just absolutely love to impose these "New York values" on the rest of the nation.

    , @Olorin
    CRIMINAL mind!?

    My dear Mr. Baldwin, this is evidence of the workings of a mind in anguish because of the terrible legacy of slavery, Jim Crow, Emmett Till, segregation, racism, The Klan, lynching, the existence of trees in Central Park, redlining, streets gone wrong, bad ZIP codes, more racism, guns erupting, lack of reparations, separate but equal education, white oppression, imperialism, patriarchism, heteronormativity, and the ridiculous necrophobic notion that it's not OK to murder a woman so you can have sex with her dying body.

    The real victim isn't the victim, it's the aggressor who has no other way to signal he's a victim but to project victimization.

    “For a victim outside, it’s a one-time or one-hour or one-minute affair, but for the person who’s caught, it’s forever.”
     
    That quote, in 1984, led me to reconsider my youthful opposition to capital punishment. When I opined as much to others in my graduate school department, the (((bolshies'))) replies were pretty much as I noted above, which probably read like satire or hyperbole.
  4. At least Moseley won’t be among the convicts taking advantage of Obama’s latest rash of sentence commutations: https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2016/03/30/president-obama-grants-commutations

    • Replies: @Jack D
    Under the Constitution (remember that) the President can only pardon Federal crimes.
  5. “I can see now that mentioning that the killer was black would have been distracting from the political lessons White America was supposed to be drawing at the climax of the Civil Rights era.”

    Reminds me of media examples from the 70s and 80s (I’m thinking of movies and comic books) in which punk rockers became a standard criminal element stand in. You could tell those punks were up to no good, and the media makers avoided bringing up racial issues.

    • Replies: @Days of Broken Arrows
    TV shows did this too. I remember an episode of "Quincy" (now being rerun on MeTV) where punk rockers (called "punkers") were behind some murder plot.

    But the worst offender in this area has to be "Law and Order," where the villains are more often than not seem to be from prep schools. Or they're from white collar backgrounds.
  6. u was told by an old NY Attorbey General’s office hand (responsible for prosoner litigation, not prosecution) that Moseley escaped from Attica to the hospital by shovong a broken bottle up his own ass, thereby creating a wound to aerioys for the prison infirmary. Dude was a bad MF.

    Later, we took a field trip to Attuca and the warden said no ine had ever escaped. I asked about Moseley, but he said he escaped fro the hosptial, not the prison. That was a BS answer to me.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Horseball, Story around here was that Mosley had a juice can kicked up his rectum, by other inmates. Bethlehem Steel used the same convoluted logic in saying that a worker died at the hospital, not at the plant, thereby keeping their accident tolls down....whatever works I guess
  7. In a morbid coincidence, Sunday night’s episode of Girls, “Hello Kitty” featured a play about Kitty Genovese’s murder called 38 Neighbors. The play takes place in different rooms of an apartment building, with actors playing the residents going through domestic drama while, in the courtyard, there’s a white statue of a knife-wielding man attacking a woman with a recording of screams.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    IIRC, there was no discussion of race in the episode, but one of the characters attending the play speculates that Kitty being a lesbian may have played some role in the lack of assistance.
    , @Yeah
    Do you watch the show often? I think it's funny, although this season and last season haven't been real strong. It's not nearly as controversial as it's made out to be and the show runners have proved to be pretty resilient in resisting the diversity casting push. The male characters are funnier than the female characters, which is ironic.
  8. @Harry Baldwin
    At his first parole hearing in 1984, Winston Moseley made a memorable statement, explaining that he was the real victim of the murder, not Genovese or Annie Mae Johnson, another woman he confessed to having stabbed to death. He was quoted in the New York Daily News:

    "For a victim outside, it's a one-time or one-hour or one-minute affair, but for the person who's caught, it's forever."

    The commissioner was clearly shocked, responding, "Well, that's one way to look at it . . . Miss Genovese and Miss Johnson are no longer with us. . . . But you're here . . . at least it's debatable that you're as bad off as Miss Genovese."

    Later, after telling a commissioner he "never intended to kill Miss Genovese," Moseley said, "What happened then would be called mugging. . . . People do kill people when they mug them sometimes."

    In 1968 he escaped from a hospital in Buffalo, tied up a husband and wife and raped the woman in front of the husband. At one parole hearing, Moseley revealed he had written the victims a letter "to apologize . . . for the inconvenience I caused.

    A commissioner answered, "That's a good way to say it. They were 'inconvenienced.'"

    In a 1990 hearing, he said that during the rape, "No one was hurt."

    A commissioner responded, "Someone was hurt. You don't rape someone without them being injured."

    "Physically injured," Moseley corrected.
     

    That's a real insight into the workings of the criminal mind.
    http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/news/kitty-killer-victim-notoriety-hurt-article-1.697583#ixzz2KObo4Wza

    Wow. The school-to-prison pipeline was at work way back then in 1964. A brutha just can’t catch a break.

    • Replies: @CK
    The school to prison pipeline has been fully functional since 1865. Before 1860 not so much. Something really evil for the bruthas must have happened in that five year period.
  9. Actually, the story was in all the social psych texts because there was a famous experiment done that was said to show we are not apathetic. Instead, when we know others are watching, we assume someone else will take action. The social psychological moral was that the presence of others, ironically, decreases the probability of intervention.

    Not sure how that fits your narrative.

    • Replies: @Jack Hanson
    It's pretty obvious Steve's factual interpretation (contra "narrative") is still ""The prog narrative can't handle the idea that black criminals commit crimes, so again whites are the only people with agency ever so let's try to talk past it with Talmudic lawgic".
    , @AndrewR
    Bingo. The Bystander Effect means people tend to assume that other people will step in. This can have deadly consequences. I know that the Genovese story has made me call 911 a couple times over things that I knew others had witnessed.
    , @NOTA
    Yep, that's what I remember from my social psych class, too. I think that's also behind the advice that if you're trying to help someone who's injured, you don't yell "someone call 911!," you point to someone, meet their eyes, and say "You! Call 911!"

    I don't know if this advice works especially well, but I've seen it a couple times now.
    , @Corvinus
    Exactly. Leave it to Mr. Sailer to go on the soapbox by insisting that the focus should have been on the race of the murderer, rather than the overall psychological implications on society when a person is clamoring for help.

    Would Mr. Sailer made it a point to blog about the death of the perpetrator had been "poor white trash" rather than "poor black trash"?
  10. Was Kitty related to the Genovese crime family? They could have whacked that Mulignan Winston Moseley.

    • Replies: @David In TN
    She wasn't related to the Genovese crime family.
  11. Mr. Moseley, a psychopathic serial killer and necrophiliac,

    That’s so judgmental.

    • Agree: Bill
  12. @Stephen R. Diamond
    Actually, the story was in all the social psych texts because there was a famous experiment done that was said to show we are not apathetic. Instead, when we know others are watching, we assume someone else will take action. The social psychological moral was that the presence of others, ironically, decreases the probability of intervention.

    Not sure how that fits your narrative.

    It’s pretty obvious Steve’s factual interpretation (contra “narrative”) is still “”The prog narrative can’t handle the idea that black criminals commit crimes, so again whites are the only people with agency ever so let’s try to talk past it with Talmudic lawgic”.

  13. someone needs to calculate the body count of desegregation. I’m sure the number exists and it’s big. but make it conservative so it would be harder to attack. the methodology must be watertight, too. people don’t understand stuff unless there’s a number one can bandy about, nevermind that it’s interesting

    • Replies: @AndrewR
    Given the confounding variables it would never be an airtight number.
    , @Hubbub
    I've wondered - never seen any numbers - how many white women have been raped or killed by black men since slavery ended in this country. I'm constantly reminded of the lynchings of blacks - deserved or undeserved - but little about the toll on whites. How much death and destruction has been wrought on whites with the freeing of the black man? I'm sure that some authority has prepared charts or tables referencing such figures, but I cannot seem to locate them.
    , @bomag

    people don’t understand stuff unless there’s a number one can bandy about
     
    People understand this stuff for the most part. Politics and social norms are lined up against openly acknowledging such.

    Note that people vote with their feet.
  14. @Harry Baldwin
    At his first parole hearing in 1984, Winston Moseley made a memorable statement, explaining that he was the real victim of the murder, not Genovese or Annie Mae Johnson, another woman he confessed to having stabbed to death. He was quoted in the New York Daily News:

    "For a victim outside, it's a one-time or one-hour or one-minute affair, but for the person who's caught, it's forever."

    The commissioner was clearly shocked, responding, "Well, that's one way to look at it . . . Miss Genovese and Miss Johnson are no longer with us. . . . But you're here . . . at least it's debatable that you're as bad off as Miss Genovese."

    Later, after telling a commissioner he "never intended to kill Miss Genovese," Moseley said, "What happened then would be called mugging. . . . People do kill people when they mug them sometimes."

    In 1968 he escaped from a hospital in Buffalo, tied up a husband and wife and raped the woman in front of the husband. At one parole hearing, Moseley revealed he had written the victims a letter "to apologize . . . for the inconvenience I caused.

    A commissioner answered, "That's a good way to say it. They were 'inconvenienced.'"

    In a 1990 hearing, he said that during the rape, "No one was hurt."

    A commissioner responded, "Someone was hurt. You don't rape someone without them being injured."

    "Physically injured," Moseley corrected.
     

    That's a real insight into the workings of the criminal mind.
    http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/news/kitty-killer-victim-notoriety-hurt-article-1.697583#ixzz2KObo4Wza

    He is clever, I will give him that.

  15. While there was no question that the attack occurred, and that some neighbors ignored cries for help, the portrayal of 38 witnesses as fully aware and unresponsive was erroneous. The article grossly exaggerated the number of witnesses and what they had perceived. None saw the attack in its entirety. Only a few had glimpsed parts of it, or recognized the cries for help. Many thought they had heard lovers or drunks quarreling. There were two attacks, not three. And afterward, two people did call the police. A 70-year-old woman ventured out and cradled the dying victim in her arms until they arrived. Ms. Genovese died on the way to a hospital.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/05/nyregion/winston-moseley-81-killer-of-kitty-genovese-dies-in-prison.html?_r=0

  16. As feminist Susan Brownmiller pointed out in the 1970s, sex crimes tended to have political connotations. The big increase in black-on-white sex crimes in New York City, Brownmiller suggested, wasn’t unrelated to the black liberation and black power ideology. (Brownmiller called out the Left’s celebration of books by Franz Fanon and boastful rapist Eldridge Cleaver as indicative.) But that’s complicated and distasteful, so let talk about Apathy.

    What if people hadn’t been “apathetic”? What if they had acted as that pioneering feminist Rebecca Latimer Felton in her day suggested society should act towards sex criminals like Winston Moseley? There would have been an outcry just the same. When it comes to negro criminality we’re damned if we do and damned if we don’t.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Craw, The word pioneering reminds me of "plains" justice, you know, take him out and hang him. Executing Mosley would have saved the Buffalo woman and her husband from the trauma and physical abuse they endured and we wouldn't be posting about this piece of shit today.
  17. Another advantage of a homogeneous society is that fewer people feel like outsiders to such an extent that they need to spend their lives demonizing it.

    This was also the age of The Authoritarian Personality. There was a lot of that sort of thing going on.

    You’d think it would be impossible to reframe the world’s most free and prosperous country as the sickest, but they managed it.

  18. Captured five days later during a burglary, Mr. Moseley confessed to the murders of Ms. Genovese and two other Queens residents: Annie Mae Johnson, 24, who had been shot and burned to death in her South Ozone Park apartment in February, and Barbara Kralik, 15, who had been stabbed in her parents’ Springfield Gardens home the previous July. Both women had been sexually assaulted.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/05/nyregion/winston-moseley-81-killer-of-kitty-genovese-dies-in-prison.html?_r=0

  19. @Dave Pinsen
    In a morbid coincidence, Sunday night's episode of Girls, "Hello Kitty" featured a play about Kitty Genovese's murder called 38 Neighbors. The play takes place in different rooms of an apartment building, with actors playing the residents going through domestic drama while, in the courtyard, there's a white statue of a knife-wielding man attacking a woman with a recording of screams.

    IIRC, there was no discussion of race in the episode, but one of the characters attending the play speculates that Kitty being a lesbian may have played some role in the lack of assistance.

  20. Is there any scholarly work that takes seriously claims of black on white rape during Reconstruction?

  21. @Dave Pinsen
    In a morbid coincidence, Sunday night's episode of Girls, "Hello Kitty" featured a play about Kitty Genovese's murder called 38 Neighbors. The play takes place in different rooms of an apartment building, with actors playing the residents going through domestic drama while, in the courtyard, there's a white statue of a knife-wielding man attacking a woman with a recording of screams.

    Do you watch the show often? I think it’s funny, although this season and last season haven’t been real strong. It’s not nearly as controversial as it’s made out to be and the show runners have proved to be pretty resilient in resisting the diversity casting push. The male characters are funnier than the female characters, which is ironic.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    I'm not 100% sure I've seen all of the episodes this season or last. The best actors are the ones who play the male characters Ray and Adam (Adam Driver, who went on to star in the Star Wars reboot).

    Brett Easton Ellis (Less Than Zero) thinks this season is the best yet:
    https://twitter.com/BretEastonEllis/status/716833278112571396
    , @AndrewR
    Lena Dunham is toxic and I treat anything she's been associated with as toxic.
  22. @Yeah
    Do you watch the show often? I think it's funny, although this season and last season haven't been real strong. It's not nearly as controversial as it's made out to be and the show runners have proved to be pretty resilient in resisting the diversity casting push. The male characters are funnier than the female characters, which is ironic.

    I’m not 100% sure I’ve seen all of the episodes this season or last. The best actors are the ones who play the male characters Ray and Adam (Adam Driver, who went on to star in the Star Wars reboot).

    Brett Easton Ellis (Less Than Zero) thinks this season is the best yet:

    • Replies: @Yeah
    Ray and Adam are good. Elijah's funny too but they go over the top with him a lot. We'll probably get banned for talking about this. Sorry for going off topic bros.
    , @Steve Sailer
    Adam Driver was pretty good in the recent Noah Baumbach comedy "While We're Young," which was a better Woody Allen comedy than maybe 9 of the last 10 Woody Allen comedies.
    , @DCThrowback
    Lion of the Blogosphere used to do episode round ups. I watch the show as well. The Simmons podcast discussed how this season has been a huge bounceback season, too, so BEE is not alone in his thoughts.
  23. RE: Black Serial Killers,

    Some stats:

    The 155 Black sexual serial killers from the 417 total represented 37.2% of all the sexual serial murders in the U.S. as of April, 2012. In 1980 Black sexual serial killers accounted for approximately 21.7% of the murders. Black sexual serial killer doubled between 1991 and 2000 to 50.6% and then peaked at 70.1% between 2001 and 2012. Presently, the overall percentage is 37.2%, which is almost double the percentage from the 1980’s.

    The data was divided chronologically beginning with cases which occurred prior to 1980 and then calculated in ten-year increments up to the April, 2012. The following Table provides a breakdown of sexual serial murder prior to 1980 up to April, 2012.

    Research Conclusions:

    There was a total of 417 Sexual Serial Killers who killed 3440 victims. The 155 Black sexual serial killers, who represented 37.2% of the total, murdered 1002 victims. The most frequent modality of death of the victims was strangulation, which occurred in 68.6% of the cases.

    This research revealed that Black sexual serial killers targeted more White female victims than White sexual serial killers targeted Black females. The exceptions to that finding were prostitute and homosexual serial killings.

    31.6% of the cases involved White victims, 45.3% of the cases involved Black victims and in 23.1% of the cases the victims were Black, White, Hispanic or other. 21.9% of the Black sexual serial killers engaged in home invasions murders involving 200 White female victims and 15 Black female victims and 9 mixed race killings.

    http://www.practicalhomicide.com/Research/BlackSexSerKillers.htm

    Blacks make up a disproportionate percentage of serial killers.

    • Replies: @Jefferson
    "Blacks make up a disproportionate percentage of serial killers."

    Is there any category of crime in The U.S where Blacks are not disproportionate?

    Is there any category of crime where Blacks make up only 13 percent of the offenders?
  24. I’ve been waiting for Trump to get tough on crime, but he doesn’t seem that interested at the moment. That’s actually a position that he sincerely believes in.

    Liberals are starting yet another war on the Normal Class with attacks on the death penalty, letting hundreds of thousands of thugs out of prison and now the absurd BLM designed to castrate the police. Sadly, we can expect a lot more Kitty Genoveses.

    • Replies: @AndrewR
    Yeah it's pretty low hanging fruit. BLM leaders openly admire Assata Shakur, Tupac's aunt who murdered a cop and fled to Cuba where she's still free. BLM would be designated a terrorist group if the US was run by people who don't hate white people.
  25. The internet is often decried as a giant surveillance network, which it is, but here is one way in which it has undoubtedly made things better: because of it I don’t think something like the Kitty Genovese “apathy” narrative could hold up for long. Someone living on the opposite end of the country could, through Facebook and Google, quickly find out who some of the supposed witnesses were and get their side of the story. Think of what happened with the UVa rape hoax.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    The Apathy angle of the story was a little bit true.
  26. @Dave Pinsen
    I'm not 100% sure I've seen all of the episodes this season or last. The best actors are the ones who play the male characters Ray and Adam (Adam Driver, who went on to star in the Star Wars reboot).

    Brett Easton Ellis (Less Than Zero) thinks this season is the best yet:
    https://twitter.com/BretEastonEllis/status/716833278112571396

    Ray and Adam are good. Elijah’s funny too but they go over the top with him a lot. We’ll probably get banned for talking about this. Sorry for going off topic bros.

  27. @Jason Bayz
    The internet is often decried as a giant surveillance network, which it is, but here is one way in which it has undoubtedly made things better: because of it I don't think something like the Kitty Genovese "apathy" narrative could hold up for long. Someone living on the opposite end of the country could, through Facebook and Google, quickly find out who some of the supposed witnesses were and get their side of the story. Think of what happened with the UVa rape hoax.

    The Apathy angle of the story was a little bit true.

    • Replies: @JsP
    you keep saying this but its not true.

    literally nobody saw the rape or killing and her lung was punctured in the initial stabbing so any screams stopped very quickly.

    I've lived in a city. What are you going to do in the middle of the night if you think you kind of heard something far away but can't see anything?


    and it was the middle of the night and windows were closed.
    , @dc.sunsets
    Let's think about this a little more:

    Imagine you carry a gun. It's like a fire extinguisher, you don't look for fires, you don't set fires, but if you are confronted with a fire, you'll have a tool with which to tackle it in the way that is safest for you.

    You hear some woman screaming and rush to help, your gun in hand. What are some of the possibilities?
    1. She's just having fun with her man, they see the gun, dial 9-1-1 and you are arrested for UUW, possibly assault with a deadly weapon; you immediately lose your CC license and probably spend at least $5k (maybe $25k) just trying to stay out of jail. You probably lose your job, too.
    2. She's being beaten by her man, but when you show up they join forces and ATTACK YOU. You are either beaten to death, shot with your own gun or you win the battle and lose the war when you are arrested for assault, possibly murder.
    3. It's an out-and-out violent crime. You intervene but the assailant rushes you and you are compelled to shoot Trayvon. You'll be arrested, possibly charged, very possibly subject to a civil suit from his relatives who are very hip to the "lottery" of civil judgments (their friends all own BMW's courtesy of one settlement or another.)

    The safest thing you can do, for you, is stay far, far away (like 50 yds+), announce that you're phoning the police and hope that the assailant doesn't simply murder the victim outright and then rush you (or his buddies you didn't see don't rush you.) You thus minimize the odds you'll be compelled to draw your gun and fire it.

    All in all, "getting involved" is now so thoroughly a courtship with legal and financial disaster that "apathy" about a victim who couldn't be bothered to see to his or her own defense seems prudent.

    Is it obligatory to help those (adults) who insist on not helping themselves?
    , @Sean
    I thought it was partially fear of jumping to a racist conclusion. Kitty kept herself to herself and even for neighbours there was no way to know that they were not witnessing an interracial couple having a violent argument, and or public sex.
    , @Jack D
    I'm wondering how much of the "apathy" angle was promoted by the police to change the subject from the fact that no cop responded?
  28. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    I just wonder just how much was the total, accumulated, aggregated cost of keeping this worthless, useless tosser incarcerated for the past half century, plus the cost of the police investigation, trial etc.

    America, famously, does not have a ‘national health system’ . I just wonder, how many medical procedures in the indigent could have been performed for the money spent on keeping that oxygen thief alive.

    • Replies: @AndrewR
    Take it up with the fine cucks of New York.
    , @dumpstersquirrel
    "I just wonder, how many medical procedures in the indigent could have been performed for the money spent on keeping that oxygen thief alive."

    I wonder if I could drive a better car or live in a better house with the money that Uncle Samantha confiscated from me at gunpoint to keep that Son of Obama alive.

    Pro tip: That money does not belong to you and it never did. But thanks for the execrable analysis.
    , @Brutusale
    America, famously, has laws requiring hospitals to treat anyone walking through the door, no matter their ability to pay.
  29. I’ve seen you refer to the rape wave post reconstruction but I haven’t been able to find anything on it. Birth of A Nation can’t count. Are there any real references?

    • Replies: @AndrewR
    Would the occupied government have reported such things?
    , @fnn

    I’ve seen you refer to the rape wave post reconstruction but I haven’t been able to find anything on it. Birth of A Nation can’t count. Are there any real references?
     
    Here's some discussion of it:
    http://zimriel.blogspot.com/2011/10/rape-and-reconstruction-i-found-another.html
  30. @syonredux
    RE: Black Serial Killers,

    Some stats:

    The 155 Black sexual serial killers from the 417 total represented 37.2% of all the sexual serial murders in the U.S. as of April, 2012. In 1980 Black sexual serial killers accounted for approximately 21.7% of the murders. Black sexual serial killer doubled between 1991 and 2000 to 50.6% and then peaked at 70.1% between 2001 and 2012. Presently, the overall percentage is 37.2%, which is almost double the percentage from the 1980’s.

    The data was divided chronologically beginning with cases which occurred prior to 1980 and then calculated in ten-year increments up to the April, 2012. The following Table provides a breakdown of sexual serial murder prior to 1980 up to April, 2012.

    Research Conclusions:

    There was a total of 417 Sexual Serial Killers who killed 3440 victims. The 155 Black sexual serial killers, who represented 37.2% of the total, murdered 1002 victims. The most frequent modality of death of the victims was strangulation, which occurred in 68.6% of the cases.

    This research revealed that Black sexual serial killers targeted more White female victims than White sexual serial killers targeted Black females. The exceptions to that finding were prostitute and homosexual serial killings.

    31.6% of the cases involved White victims, 45.3% of the cases involved Black victims and in 23.1% of the cases the victims were Black, White, Hispanic or other. 21.9% of the Black sexual serial killers engaged in home invasions murders involving 200 White female victims and 15 Black female victims and 9 mixed race killings.
     
    http://www.practicalhomicide.com/Research/BlackSexSerKillers.htm

    Blacks make up a disproportionate percentage of serial killers.

    “Blacks make up a disproportionate percentage of serial killers.”

    Is there any category of crime in The U.S where Blacks are not disproportionate?

    Is there any category of crime where Blacks make up only 13 percent of the offenders?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Price-fixing and other anti-trust violations.
    , @Forbes
    A friend, a psychiatrist, who works in the criminal justice system (Hinckley was a patient of his at St. Elizabeth's in DC), points out that blacks are overrepresented in violent crime and underrepresented in non-violent crime--it's as simple as that.
    , @Jack D
    Any kind of white collar crime. Something like what Bernie Madoff did would be far beyond the ability of 99.9% of blacks.

    Nigerians are big time scammers but they (especially Ibo/Igbo) are much smarter than American blacks. They are the kind of people who SOLD the American blacks into the slave trade.
  31. I think the rewritten narrative on this case has something to do with the fact that the neighborhood in which Italian-American lesbian Kitty Genovese was raped and murdered by a black man happened to be largely jewish.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    A.M. Rosenthal, like his son Andrew Rosenthal (until recently the op-ed editor of the NYT), was an extremely antsy Jewish man. The Rosenthals have a tendency to get very worked up over things, but in a fashion that's opaque to almost all gentiles.
    , @anonymous-antimarxist
    Steve,

    Perhaps the PC Jewish neighbors of the for the time butch hard drinking lesbian Kitty Genovese were not callously indifferent, but merely anticipating the coming decades of Cultural Marxist Media propaganda showcasing the rise of the "Butt Kicking Babe".

    Surely the problem was not Kitty needing rescue from her psychopathic male PoC serial killing attacker by a member of racist largely white male law enforcement patriarchy? Or heaven forbid, Kitty's lack of a 2nd Amendment right to own a concealed carry firearm.

    No the lesson here was that Kitty had fail to spend 10,000 hours or more of her free time since early childhood learning to master the round house kick, the left hook and the always effect kick to groin of the sexist male pig.

    Thank God that today's. if properly prepared, SJW woman if fully capable of defending herself from the worst sort of sexual predator, the notorious "Haven Monahan". That is why today's SJW woman has absolutely nothing to fear from welcoming millions of rapefugees to our shores or internet dating the most heavily tattooed dindus.

    You see!!! Progress!!!

    I mean after all haven't you seen the latest Star Wars reboot???
    , @kaganovitch
    I'm not sure I'm following here; Is your theory that Rosenthal decided to blame it on the Jews?? Had the neighborhood been Irish or Italian he would have let Moseley take the blame?
    , @Buffalo Joe
    Malcolm, I don't follow your thinking. In most large Northeastern cities the Italian and Jewish neighborhoods often abutted each other and the residents got along just fine.
  32. Another thing that’s not talked about:, do blacks die early in prison too? We know that their lives on the outside are always tragically cut short by whitey, but when every facet of their lives is the same as the other races, what then? I suspect that, as with the research on male/female lifespans in monasteries, the ratio is going to be about what it is anywhere else.

  33. @Yeah
    Do you watch the show often? I think it's funny, although this season and last season haven't been real strong. It's not nearly as controversial as it's made out to be and the show runners have proved to be pretty resilient in resisting the diversity casting push. The male characters are funnier than the female characters, which is ironic.

    Lena Dunham is toxic and I treat anything she’s been associated with as toxic.

  34. @Anoni
    I've seen you refer to the rape wave post reconstruction but I haven't been able to find anything on it. Birth of A Nation can't count. Are there any real references?

    Would the occupied government have reported such things?

  35. @Anonymous
    I just wonder just how much was the total, accumulated, aggregated cost of keeping this worthless, useless tosser incarcerated for the past half century, plus the cost of the police investigation, trial etc.

    America, famously, does not have a 'national health system' . I just wonder, how many medical procedures in the indigent could have been performed for the money spent on keeping that oxygen thief alive.

    Take it up with the fine cucks of New York.

  36. @andy russia
    someone needs to calculate the body count of desegregation. I'm sure the number exists and it's big. but make it conservative so it would be harder to attack. the methodology must be watertight, too. people don't understand stuff unless there's a number one can bandy about, nevermind that it's interesting

    Given the confounding variables it would never be an airtight number.

  37. @Stephen R. Diamond
    Actually, the story was in all the social psych texts because there was a famous experiment done that was said to show we are not apathetic. Instead, when we know others are watching, we assume someone else will take action. The social psychological moral was that the presence of others, ironically, decreases the probability of intervention.

    Not sure how that fits your narrative.

    Bingo. The Bystander Effect means people tend to assume that other people will step in. This can have deadly consequences. I know that the Genovese story has made me call 911 a couple times over things that I knew others had witnessed.

  38. JsP says:
    @Steve Sailer
    The Apathy angle of the story was a little bit true.

    you keep saying this but its not true.

    literally nobody saw the rape or killing and her lung was punctured in the initial stabbing so any screams stopped very quickly.

    I’ve lived in a city. What are you going to do in the middle of the night if you think you kind of heard something far away but can’t see anything?

    and it was the middle of the night and windows were closed.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    I've lived in New York and other cities. New York is a lot more intense in terms of ambient noise than most other cities. It's impossible to live there without actively ignoring most of the loud human and other noises around you. It's sort of like when you first live there, you might give out change to the homeless panhandlers you see, but then after a while you just end up ignoring the panhandlers because there are so many of them, and you can't constantly stop and hand out change.

    I suspect it wasn't so much apathy in the sense that people knew something horrible was happening and deliberately chose to ignore it, but rather people getting used to ignoring the surrounding noise in a major city like New York.
  39. @Judah Benjamin Hur
    I've been waiting for Trump to get tough on crime, but he doesn't seem that interested at the moment. That's actually a position that he sincerely believes in.

    Liberals are starting yet another war on the Normal Class with attacks on the death penalty, letting hundreds of thousands of thugs out of prison and now the absurd BLM designed to castrate the police. Sadly, we can expect a lot more Kitty Genoveses.

    Yeah it’s pretty low hanging fruit. BLM leaders openly admire Assata Shakur, Tupac’s aunt who murdered a cop and fled to Cuba where she’s still free. BLM would be designated a terrorist group if the US was run by people who don’t hate white people.

  40. @Malcolm X-Lax
    I think the rewritten narrative on this case has something to do with the fact that the neighborhood in which Italian-American lesbian Kitty Genovese was raped and murdered by a black man happened to be largely jewish.

    A.M. Rosenthal, like his son Andrew Rosenthal (until recently the op-ed editor of the NYT), was an extremely antsy Jewish man. The Rosenthals have a tendency to get very worked up over things, but in a fashion that’s opaque to almost all gentiles.

  41. @Jefferson
    "Blacks make up a disproportionate percentage of serial killers."

    Is there any category of crime in The U.S where Blacks are not disproportionate?

    Is there any category of crime where Blacks make up only 13 percent of the offenders?

    Price-fixing and other anti-trust violations.

    • Replies: @PV van der Byl
    Ditto, insider trading.
    , @Jefferson
    "Price-fixing and other anti-trust violations."

    Any statistics?
  42. @Malcolm X-Lax
    I think the rewritten narrative on this case has something to do with the fact that the neighborhood in which Italian-American lesbian Kitty Genovese was raped and murdered by a black man happened to be largely jewish.

    Steve,

    Perhaps the PC Jewish neighbors of the for the time butch hard drinking lesbian Kitty Genovese were not callously indifferent, but merely anticipating the coming decades of Cultural Marxist Media propaganda showcasing the rise of the “Butt Kicking Babe”.

    Surely the problem was not Kitty needing rescue from her psychopathic male PoC serial killing attacker by a member of racist largely white male law enforcement patriarchy? Or heaven forbid, Kitty’s lack of a 2nd Amendment right to own a concealed carry firearm.

    No the lesson here was that Kitty had fail to spend 10,000 hours or more of her free time since early childhood learning to master the round house kick, the left hook and the always effect kick to groin of the sexist male pig.

    Thank God that today’s. if properly prepared, SJW woman if fully capable of defending herself from the worst sort of sexual predator, the notorious “Haven Monahan”. That is why today’s SJW woman has absolutely nothing to fear from welcoming millions of rapefugees to our shores or internet dating the most heavily tattooed dindus.

    You see!!! Progress!!!

    I mean after all haven’t you seen the latest Star Wars reboot???

    • Replies: @Bugg
    Preface this with Moseley was guilty as hell and deserved the death penalty. But it's a rarely-discussed part of the story that Genovese was kind of out there as a goy hard-drinking party girl in an almost completely Jewish neighborhood. Friend of mine grew up with her, and mentioned this several times when the story came up. Perhaps her neighbors didn't really care because she was so different from themselves.
  43. I did smile at “Clinton Correctional Facility”. In fact, I hooted.

    • Replies: @Forbes
    It's in Clinton County, NY. IIRC, it had been known as Dannemora State Prison for eons, but at some point (1970s?) it became fashionable to rename prisons as 'correctional facilities,' meanwhile some local place names were changed, due to the negative connotation on the local village.
  44. It is not like in the last 52 years of marxist lefties wringing their hands over whether or not the death penalty is cruel and unusual punishment there has not been a better method of executing the clearly deserving guilty with a method far simpler than the insanely stupid “lethal injection”.

    Oh yes, it can be not only bloodless but has already been used tens if not hundreds of millions of times on large very thick skulled mammals. I am sure some silicon valley robotics genius could rig up a machine to eliminate the need for a human executioner in a weekend.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captive_bolt_pistol

    If the far lefties are still up tight about it, you could even pay some “Temple Grandin” to come up with some “more humane” method where the condemned would not know the precise moment of their execution. I believe the Russian and Chinese still mostly execute their condemned while they go about their daily tasks like traveling the prison hall ways or sitting on the toilet. China limits videoed public executions to those of multiple convicted major drug traffickers who get a quick rifle bullet to the back of the head.

    • Replies: @Jus' Sayin'...
    I've pointed this out before, A small room filled with a pure atmosphere of Nitrogen gas is a very quick and painless way to execute someone. Any person in such a room will lose consciousness within a very short span of time. They will eventually die from lack of Oxygen. The usual, and relatively minor, discomfort caused by anoxia is caused when the body perceives a small buildup in Carbon Dioxide concentration. This will not happen in a pure Nitrogen environment. It is beyond my comprehension why advocates for the death penalty have not championed this method.
    , @Lovernios X
    The assassin, Anton Chigurh, in No Country for Old Men by Cormac McCarthy used one of those on some of his victims. He had it disguised as an oxygen tank with the bolt mechanism hidden in his sleeve. It confused the medical examiner in the small Texas town because the wound looked like it was caused by a small caliber pistol, but there was no exit wound and no bullet in the brain. Excellent book.
    , @NOTA
    It's always seemed to me that the guillotine was a more humane form of execution than lethal injection, the electric chair, or the gas chamber. But it's visibly bloody and it's associated with the bloodier bits of the French Revolution. (We could rename the agency in charge of executions the Committee for Public Safety, just for old time's sake.)
    , @inertial
    Russia hasn't executed anyone since 1996.
    , @WowJustWow
    IIRC, if you look at recent capital punishment cases that have been challenged for being cruel and unusual, it is because either:

    1. activists have succeeded in blocking a state's access to effective swift-and-painless lethal injection drugs, forcing them to switch to less effective drugs that may lead to the injectee writhing in burning pain, or
    2. the fact that the appeals process takes so long that convicts do not really know if or when they will be executed is taken to be a cruel and unusual level of uncertainty in itself.

    In either case, it is precisely the efforts to prevent cruel and unusual punishment that provide additional rhetorical ammunition for opponents of capital punishment to criticize the results of their efforts as still being cruel and unusual. It seems liberals would only accept either an outright ban on capital punishment or a policy of executing the convict the moment their sentence is announced.
    , @WowJustWow
    Also, re:

    If the far lefties are still up tight about it, you could even pay some “Temple Grandin” to come up with some “more humane” method where the condemned would not know the precise moment of their execution. I believe the Russian and Chinese still mostly execute their condemned while they go about their daily tasks like traveling the prison hall ways or sitting on the toilet.
     
    "He is back in the Ministry of Love, with everything forgiven, his soul white as snow. He was in the public dock, confessing everything, implicating everybody. He was walking down the white-tiled corridor, with the feeling of walking in sunlight, and an armed guard at his back. The long-hoped-for bullet was entering his brain."
  45. @Anonymous
    I just wonder just how much was the total, accumulated, aggregated cost of keeping this worthless, useless tosser incarcerated for the past half century, plus the cost of the police investigation, trial etc.

    America, famously, does not have a 'national health system' . I just wonder, how many medical procedures in the indigent could have been performed for the money spent on keeping that oxygen thief alive.

    “I just wonder, how many medical procedures in the indigent could have been performed for the money spent on keeping that oxygen thief alive.”

    I wonder if I could drive a better car or live in a better house with the money that Uncle Samantha confiscated from me at gunpoint to keep that Son of Obama alive.

    Pro tip: That money does not belong to you and it never did. But thanks for the execrable analysis.

  46. I have read about this since it happened and there has never been so much as a hint that he was black.

  47. Seems we are being played again. Now we must have sympathy for the devil. First it was 6,000 now it is up to 48,000 early releases of convicted drug felons from Federal prison. This at a time when heroin overdoses are increasing and heroin has found it’s way into every community in America.

    Drug Expert: ‘I’ve Never Seen It Like This’
    “All of us, collectively, are in the midst of a health epidemic at a rate we’ve never before seen,” said Mr. Chassman, the executive director of LICADD, the Long Island Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence. “If you hear a sense of urgency in my voice, I’ve been a social worker for 23 years, and I’ve never seen it like this.”
    http://easthamptonstar.com/Education/2016331/Drug-Expert-Ive-Never-Seen-It-This

    Let’s not forget the the hell these scumbags have released on society.

    A Parent’s Obituary To Their Late Son:
    “Clay William Shephard
    November 25, 1992 – May 17, 2015
    We loved Clay with all of our hearts, but we now know that was not enough to shield him from the world. This note isn’t an attempt to assign blame for Clay’s death. It’s not to vent our anger and frustration at a world where drugs can be ordered and delivered through the internet. We write this obituary in hope that it may provide an insight to those that need to change their behavior one night at a time.
    Clay was a solid student, decent athlete, and a very likeable kid. With his seemingly endless positive traits, he had the potential to be anything from a captivating politician to a brilliant engineer, but drugs began to creep into Clay’s life while he was in high school. As trouble hit, his father stepped in and forged an incredible bond with Clay. Although Clay could never be completely honest about the trouble he was in, his love and respect for his father became a lifeline over the last few years. He successfully completed drug rehab several times, but the craving that comes from true addiction was more than he could overcome.
    While we always felt we had some grip on Clay’s issues, his ability to hide and disguise his addiction proved superior to our parental (and sibling) sixth sense. The worry that we have felt watching Clay struggle, has been replaced by a deep feeling of loss that now exists knowing we will never see his smiling face again. Despite these troubles, we can smile knowing that the last communication we had with Clay was a text and answer between mother and son to say “I love you”, just as it should be.
    To all children, this note is a simple reminder that there are people who love you, with everything they have and no matter what you do – don’t be too afraid/ashamed/scared, too anything, to ask for help. To all parents, pay attention to your children and the world that revolves around them – even when the surface is calm, the water may be turbulent just beneath. Clay’s struggles have ended. He is finally at peace. We will miss his keen sense of humor, impersonations, cooking, plant advice and rhythm on the dance floor.
    Goodbye Clay, we love you and miss you dearly.
    Mom & Dad, Cole, Wade & Jess, Jean & Lucas”

    Any person in their right mind knew this was coming..
    Crack Dealer Freed Early Under Obama Plan Murders Woman and 2 Children
    http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2016/03/crack-dealer-freed-early-under-obama-plan-murders-woman-2-kids/

    And now this
    U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement has revealed that 124 illegal immigrant criminals released from jail by the Obama administration since 2010 have been subsequently charged with murder.
    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/ice-124-illegal-immigrants-freed-from-jail-later-charged-with-murder/article/2585720

    And this:
    US official: Gitmo transfers have resulted in American deaths
    http://thehill.com/policy/defense/274083-pentagon-official-americans-killed-by-former-gitmo-detainees

    Am I wrong to conclude that this monster in the White House is doing all he can to harm us and cause chaos?

    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    Crack Dealer Freed Early Under Obama Plan Murders Woman and 2 Children . . . 124 illegal immigrant criminals released from jail by the Obama administration since 2010 have been subsequently charged with murder. . . . US official: Gitmo transfers have resulted in American deaths

    Obama gets angry that he has been unable to push through his gun-control agenda--so angry that he shed tears when talking about it. Does he shed tears for all the people for whose deaths he's more directly responsible?
  48. @Harry Baldwin
    At his first parole hearing in 1984, Winston Moseley made a memorable statement, explaining that he was the real victim of the murder, not Genovese or Annie Mae Johnson, another woman he confessed to having stabbed to death. He was quoted in the New York Daily News:

    "For a victim outside, it's a one-time or one-hour or one-minute affair, but for the person who's caught, it's forever."

    The commissioner was clearly shocked, responding, "Well, that's one way to look at it . . . Miss Genovese and Miss Johnson are no longer with us. . . . But you're here . . . at least it's debatable that you're as bad off as Miss Genovese."

    Later, after telling a commissioner he "never intended to kill Miss Genovese," Moseley said, "What happened then would be called mugging. . . . People do kill people when they mug them sometimes."

    In 1968 he escaped from a hospital in Buffalo, tied up a husband and wife and raped the woman in front of the husband. At one parole hearing, Moseley revealed he had written the victims a letter "to apologize . . . for the inconvenience I caused.

    A commissioner answered, "That's a good way to say it. They were 'inconvenienced.'"

    In a 1990 hearing, he said that during the rape, "No one was hurt."

    A commissioner responded, "Someone was hurt. You don't rape someone without them being injured."

    "Physically injured," Moseley corrected.
     

    That's a real insight into the workings of the criminal mind.
    http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/news/kitty-killer-victim-notoriety-hurt-article-1.697583#ixzz2KObo4Wza

    Garden-variety psychopathy. I’m glad the authorities had the sense to detain him indefinitely.

  49. @andy russia
    someone needs to calculate the body count of desegregation. I'm sure the number exists and it's big. but make it conservative so it would be harder to attack. the methodology must be watertight, too. people don't understand stuff unless there's a number one can bandy about, nevermind that it's interesting

    I’ve wondered – never seen any numbers – how many white women have been raped or killed by black men since slavery ended in this country. I’m constantly reminded of the lynchings of blacks – deserved or undeserved – but little about the toll on whites. How much death and destruction has been wrought on whites with the freeing of the black man? I’m sure that some authority has prepared charts or tables referencing such figures, but I cannot seem to locate them.

    • Replies: @Forbes
    Bureau of Justice Statistics in the DOJ collates such information. There have been some stories (I haven't tried to verify) from seemingly reputable sources that the Obama/Holder DOJ changed public reporting to obfuscate black on white crime stats reporting. The data is available, but it's apparently lacking in presentation form.

    Ten years ago during the Duke lacrosse incident/scandal, I look at the rape stats, and it was obvious that white men do not rape black women. All inter-racial rapes were black on white (over the prior 10-year period). The data is based on victim reporting of perpetrators. There was one year for white-on-black rape that had an asterisk, with a footnote leading to the conclusion of the exception that proves the general rule. More of the inconvenient facts that will always be ignored by The Narrative.
  50. @Malcolm X-Lax
    I think the rewritten narrative on this case has something to do with the fact that the neighborhood in which Italian-American lesbian Kitty Genovese was raped and murdered by a black man happened to be largely jewish.

    I’m not sure I’m following here; Is your theory that Rosenthal decided to blame it on the Jews?? Had the neighborhood been Irish or Italian he would have let Moseley take the blame?

  51. @Big Bill
    Wow. The school-to-prison pipeline was at work way back then in 1964. A brutha just can't catch a break.

    The school to prison pipeline has been fully functional since 1865. Before 1860 not so much. Something really evil for the bruthas must have happened in that five year period.

  52. @andy russia
    someone needs to calculate the body count of desegregation. I'm sure the number exists and it's big. but make it conservative so it would be harder to attack. the methodology must be watertight, too. people don't understand stuff unless there's a number one can bandy about, nevermind that it's interesting

    people don’t understand stuff unless there’s a number one can bandy about

    People understand this stuff for the most part. Politics and social norms are lined up against openly acknowledging such.

    Note that people vote with their feet.

    • Replies: @Alec Leamas
    People vote with their feet and then mouth Lefty BLM style lies in an attempt to cover their tracks. What happens when their feet can't take them any further? What happens to those whose pockets can't match the ambitions of their feet? In case you haven't noticed, it has been the lives and opportunities of the white working class paid in trade as part of this Satanic bargain. What are a few more dead cops when I can live in an overwhelmingly white and Asian neighborhood and still pretend I'm not a bad white? They probably didn't even go to college.
  53. The other day mrs 25 year old and I were driving down the street when I heard unmistakeable woman screaming coming from down a dark dead-end alley. My dad has told me about kitty Genoevese probably a million times when I was a kid, so I had her stop the car and I ran back to check. I got close enough to see what was happening and there were in fact 2 girls in the alley. One was hysterically crying and screaming at the top of her lungs. the other was trying to calm her down. I stopped short (not wanting to freak them out) and asked in my best cop-voice whether everything was alright. The crying one shut up momentarily and calm one answered that it was “a family tragedy, just leave us alone”. So I turned around and left. When I got out of the alley back to the street, a small crowd had gathered at the mouth of the alley listening hesitantly to the screams. But nobody else had gone in to look. Non screaming girl’s tone of voice Suggested that I was an asshole for checking on them. Oh well.

    • Replies: @Yak-15
    Now that you mention it, I have sometimes gotten the same sort of response when I have tried to help people. This is why I have largely stopped trying to look out for others. The "f*** off" for helping look infuriates me to no end.
    , @Forbes
    Schools and society have successfully socialized women to act out their inconveniences and emotional outbursts in the form of a drama queen, such that when the shrieking is investigated, the inquiring party is usually told to "fuck off, mind your own business."

    Watching the NCAA semi-finals Saturday night in a pub, there were a couple 20-something, obese women, shrieking at the top of their lungs in reaction to the game. You'd have thought they were being assaulted...
  54. @anonymous-antimarxist
    It is not like in the last 52 years of marxist lefties wringing their hands over whether or not the death penalty is cruel and unusual punishment there has not been a better method of executing the clearly deserving guilty with a method far simpler than the insanely stupid "lethal injection".

    Oh yes, it can be not only bloodless but has already been used tens if not hundreds of millions of times on large very thick skulled mammals. I am sure some silicon valley robotics genius could rig up a machine to eliminate the need for a human executioner in a weekend.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captive_bolt_pistol

    If the far lefties are still up tight about it, you could even pay some "Temple Grandin" to come up with some "more humane" method where the condemned would not know the precise moment of their execution. I believe the Russian and Chinese still mostly execute their condemned while they go about their daily tasks like traveling the prison hall ways or sitting on the toilet. China limits videoed public executions to those of multiple convicted major drug traffickers who get a quick rifle bullet to the back of the head.

    I’ve pointed this out before, A small room filled with a pure atmosphere of Nitrogen gas is a very quick and painless way to execute someone. Any person in such a room will lose consciousness within a very short span of time. They will eventually die from lack of Oxygen. The usual, and relatively minor, discomfort caused by anoxia is caused when the body perceives a small buildup in Carbon Dioxide concentration. This will not happen in a pure Nitrogen environment. It is beyond my comprehension why advocates for the death penalty have not championed this method.

    • Replies: @anonymous-antimarxist
    Primarily nitrogen mixed gas systems are used by poultry industry slaughterhouses. Bird respiration is quite different from mammal.

    The cattle industry and I believe pork as well use various captive bolt methods. However electrocutions are still used in cases where animal parts are harvested by the pharmaceutical industry. The captive bolt actually only "stuns" the cow by effectively instantly liquifying the front portions of the brain while leaving the brain stem, nervous system and heart functioning long enough for the cow to be bleed out. Also the captive bolt does not force brain matter into the circulatory system in case of mad cow disease.

    http://www.grandin.com/ritual/euthanasia.slaughter.livestock.html

    A pneumatic captive bolt delivered to the back of the human head, however, would instantly stop all bodily functions and systems.

    No bloody mess as with gravity based decapitation systems(what John Derbyshire recommends), no possible embarrassing screw ups as with hangings, electrocutions, or gas chambers that require a highly trained execution and technical staff to avoid, no doctors betraying their "Hippocratic" oath as with lethal injection.

    China every so often posts videos of major drug traffickers being shot in the back of the head, both men and women. I think that is what the Derb means by "REAL WAR ON DRUGS"!!!.

    There are arguments I suppose against the Death Penalty. I just have never been convinced by the argument that all potential methods of execution are inherently fallible or cruel and unusual punishment.
  55. @jill
    Seems we are being played again. Now we must have sympathy for the devil. First it was 6,000 now it is up to 48,000 early releases of convicted drug felons from Federal prison. This at a time when heroin overdoses are increasing and heroin has found it's way into every community in America.

    Drug Expert: ‘I’ve Never Seen It Like This’
    “All of us, collectively, are in the midst of a health epidemic at a rate we’ve never before seen,” said Mr. Chassman, the executive director of LICADD, the Long Island Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence. “If you hear a sense of urgency in my voice, I’ve been a social worker for 23 years, and I’ve never seen it like this.”
    http://easthamptonstar.com/Education/2016331/Drug-Expert-Ive-Never-Seen-It-This

    Let's not forget the the hell these scumbags have released on society.

    A Parent's Obituary To Their Late Son:
    "Clay William Shephard
    November 25, 1992 - May 17, 2015
    We loved Clay with all of our hearts, but we now know that was not enough to shield him from the world. This note isn't an attempt to assign blame for Clay's death. It's not to vent our anger and frustration at a world where drugs can be ordered and delivered through the internet. We write this obituary in hope that it may provide an insight to those that need to change their behavior one night at a time.
    Clay was a solid student, decent athlete, and a very likeable kid. With his seemingly endless positive traits, he had the potential to be anything from a captivating politician to a brilliant engineer, but drugs began to creep into Clay's life while he was in high school. As trouble hit, his father stepped in and forged an incredible bond with Clay. Although Clay could never be completely honest about the trouble he was in, his love and respect for his father became a lifeline over the last few years. He successfully completed drug rehab several times, but the craving that comes from true addiction was more than he could overcome.
    While we always felt we had some grip on Clay's issues, his ability to hide and disguise his addiction proved superior to our parental (and sibling) sixth sense. The worry that we have felt watching Clay struggle, has been replaced by a deep feeling of loss that now exists knowing we will never see his smiling face again. Despite these troubles, we can smile knowing that the last communication we had with Clay was a text and answer between mother and son to say "I love you", just as it should be.
    To all children, this note is a simple reminder that there are people who love you, with everything they have and no matter what you do - don't be too afraid/ashamed/scared, too anything, to ask for help. To all parents, pay attention to your children and the world that revolves around them - even when the surface is calm, the water may be turbulent just beneath. Clay's struggles have ended. He is finally at peace. We will miss his keen sense of humor, impersonations, cooking, plant advice and rhythm on the dance floor.
    Goodbye Clay, we love you and miss you dearly.
    Mom & Dad, Cole, Wade & Jess, Jean & Lucas"

    Any person in their right mind knew this was coming..
    Crack Dealer Freed Early Under Obama Plan Murders Woman and 2 Children
    http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2016/03/crack-dealer-freed-early-under-obama-plan-murders-woman-2-kids/

    And now this
    U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement has revealed that 124 illegal immigrant criminals released from jail by the Obama administration since 2010 have been subsequently charged with murder.
    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/ice-124-illegal-immigrants-freed-from-jail-later-charged-with-murder/article/2585720

    And this:
    US official: Gitmo transfers have resulted in American deaths
    http://thehill.com/policy/defense/274083-pentagon-official-americans-killed-by-former-gitmo-detainees

    Am I wrong to conclude that this monster in the White House is doing all he can to harm us and cause chaos?

    Crack Dealer Freed Early Under Obama Plan Murders Woman and 2 Children . . . 124 illegal immigrant criminals released from jail by the Obama administration since 2010 have been subsequently charged with murder. . . . US official: Gitmo transfers have resulted in American deaths

    Obama gets angry that he has been unable to push through his gun-control agenda–so angry that he shed tears when talking about it. Does he shed tears for all the people for whose deaths he’s more directly responsible?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    If only one of those 124 looked like his son Trevon (if he had one) and them maybe he might have cared.
  56. @Anonymous
    I just wonder just how much was the total, accumulated, aggregated cost of keeping this worthless, useless tosser incarcerated for the past half century, plus the cost of the police investigation, trial etc.

    America, famously, does not have a 'national health system' . I just wonder, how many medical procedures in the indigent could have been performed for the money spent on keeping that oxygen thief alive.

    America, famously, has laws requiring hospitals to treat anyone walking through the door, no matter their ability to pay.

  57. @anonymous-antimarxist
    Steve,

    Perhaps the PC Jewish neighbors of the for the time butch hard drinking lesbian Kitty Genovese were not callously indifferent, but merely anticipating the coming decades of Cultural Marxist Media propaganda showcasing the rise of the "Butt Kicking Babe".

    Surely the problem was not Kitty needing rescue from her psychopathic male PoC serial killing attacker by a member of racist largely white male law enforcement patriarchy? Or heaven forbid, Kitty's lack of a 2nd Amendment right to own a concealed carry firearm.

    No the lesson here was that Kitty had fail to spend 10,000 hours or more of her free time since early childhood learning to master the round house kick, the left hook and the always effect kick to groin of the sexist male pig.

    Thank God that today's. if properly prepared, SJW woman if fully capable of defending herself from the worst sort of sexual predator, the notorious "Haven Monahan". That is why today's SJW woman has absolutely nothing to fear from welcoming millions of rapefugees to our shores or internet dating the most heavily tattooed dindus.

    You see!!! Progress!!!

    I mean after all haven't you seen the latest Star Wars reboot???

    Preface this with Moseley was guilty as hell and deserved the death penalty. But it’s a rarely-discussed part of the story that Genovese was kind of out there as a goy hard-drinking party girl in an almost completely Jewish neighborhood. Friend of mine grew up with her, and mentioned this several times when the story came up. Perhaps her neighbors didn’t really care because she was so different from themselves.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Thanks.

    My guess would be that the story brought up a bunch of complicated emotions in Rosenthal that he had a hard time dealing with. He managed to put one or two spins on it -- apathy and the need for some kind of 9-11 phone system -- that had some truth to them, which isn't bad for a newspaper reporter.

    , @The Man From K Street

    Preface this with Moseley was guilty as hell and deserved the death penalty. But it’s a rarely-discussed part of the story that Genovese was kind of out there as a goy hard-drinking party girl in an almost completely Jewish neighborhood. Friend of mine grew up with her, and mentioned this several times when the story came up. Perhaps her neighbors didn’t really care because she was so different from themselves.
     
    Rarely-discussed online, perhaps, but pretty familiar to those who've studied the case. The cops who first brought the police blotter item to Rosenthal's attention (in the following days) knew the score too, but they didn't belabor it.

    There's one other facet, too: the guy who *most clearly and unquestionably* saw the last attack (the one who opened his first floor landing front door and looked directly thirty feet down a staircase to the apartment building lobby where she collapsed for the last time, and who did nothing) was a out male homosexual when that really wasn't very common in NYC. And he knew Genovese well. The gay vs. lesbian cold war that Steve has written about many times before may be much older than we suspect.
  58. @Dave Pinsen
    I'm not 100% sure I've seen all of the episodes this season or last. The best actors are the ones who play the male characters Ray and Adam (Adam Driver, who went on to star in the Star Wars reboot).

    Brett Easton Ellis (Less Than Zero) thinks this season is the best yet:
    https://twitter.com/BretEastonEllis/status/716833278112571396

    Adam Driver was pretty good in the recent Noah Baumbach comedy “While We’re Young,” which was a better Woody Allen comedy than maybe 9 of the last 10 Woody Allen comedies.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Thanks, I'll have to check it out.
    , @Anonymous
    I always forget that Allen is still putting out a new movie every year.
  59. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Rosenthal managed to turn the focus of the story around from one of black-on-white crime to one of blaming non-blacks. Pretty neat trick and one that fooled everyone. The civil rights issue of that time was too important to have any doubts creep in. Of course someone like Rosenthal wouldn’t want a gun owner to intervene on his own either for that’s the wrong kind of intervention and wrong kind of intervener. Very artful example of misdirecting the public and shows how literally everything gets spun.

  60. @Bugg
    Preface this with Moseley was guilty as hell and deserved the death penalty. But it's a rarely-discussed part of the story that Genovese was kind of out there as a goy hard-drinking party girl in an almost completely Jewish neighborhood. Friend of mine grew up with her, and mentioned this several times when the story came up. Perhaps her neighbors didn't really care because she was so different from themselves.

    Thanks.

    My guess would be that the story brought up a bunch of complicated emotions in Rosenthal that he had a hard time dealing with. He managed to put one or two spins on it — apathy and the need for some kind of 9-11 phone system — that had some truth to them, which isn’t bad for a newspaper reporter.

    • Replies: @tris
    maybe its a lot simpler: rosthenthal was the same ethnic as those pushing civil rights with a hidden agenda. so the thumb-sucking reporting probs was coordinated.
    , @craig henry
    According to the New Yorker article, Rosenthal was put onto the apathy angle by the NYPD AFTER he brought up the fact another man had confessed to a murder that Mosley committed.

    Textbook example of how sources can divert the press and shape a false narrative (see also Mark Felt/DEEP THROT)
    , @syonredux

    My guess would be that the story brought up a bunch of complicated emotions in Rosenthal that he had a hard time dealing with. He managed to put one or two spins on it — apathy and the need for some kind of 9-11 phone system — that had some truth to them, which isn’t bad for a newspaper reporter.
     
    Bearing that in mind, it's interesting to see what the NYPD police commissioner was actually worried about:

    Ten days after Genovese was killed, he [Rosenthal] went downtown to have lunch with New York City’s police commissioner, Michael Murphy. Murphy spent most of the lunch talking about how worried he was that the civil-rights movement, which was at its peak, would set off racial violence in New York, but toward the end Rosenthal asked him about a curious case, then being covered in the tabloids, in which two men had confessed to the same murder.
     
    So, Murphy spent the bulk of the interview talking about the looming threat of Black-inspired racial violence. Rosenthal, on the other hand, was worried about apathy……Perhaps another example of the Jewish obsession with the Holocaust narrative (Good Germans doing nothing while Hitler and his associated do their fell work) intruding into American life?
  61. In college around 1980, this event was presented to us in Psych 101 as an example of what happens when responsibility is distributed among many people. Everyone thinks someone else is handling the problem, so no one does anything.

  62. @27 year old
    The other day mrs 25 year old and I were driving down the street when I heard unmistakeable woman screaming coming from down a dark dead-end alley. My dad has told me about kitty Genoevese probably a million times when I was a kid, so I had her stop the car and I ran back to check. I got close enough to see what was happening and there were in fact 2 girls in the alley. One was hysterically crying and screaming at the top of her lungs. the other was trying to calm her down. I stopped short (not wanting to freak them out) and asked in my best cop-voice whether everything was alright. The crying one shut up momentarily and calm one answered that it was "a family tragedy, just leave us alone". So I turned around and left. When I got out of the alley back to the street, a small crowd had gathered at the mouth of the alley listening hesitantly to the screams. But nobody else had gone in to look. Non screaming girl's tone of voice Suggested that I was an asshole for checking on them. Oh well.

    Now that you mention it, I have sometimes gotten the same sort of response when I have tried to help people. This is why I have largely stopped trying to look out for others. The “f*** off” for helping look infuriates me to no end.

  63. @Steve Sailer
    Thanks.

    My guess would be that the story brought up a bunch of complicated emotions in Rosenthal that he had a hard time dealing with. He managed to put one or two spins on it -- apathy and the need for some kind of 9-11 phone system -- that had some truth to them, which isn't bad for a newspaper reporter.

    maybe its a lot simpler: rosthenthal was the same ethnic as those pushing civil rights with a hidden agenda. so the thumb-sucking reporting probs was coordinated.

  64. The most deplorable one [AKA "Fourth doorman of the apocalypse"] says:

    the maximum security Clinton Correctional Facility in Dannemora, N.Y

    When I first saw that I thought that someone had the right idea but couldn’t figure out how to convict them.

  65. The big increase in black-on-white sex crimes in New York City, Brownmiller suggested, wasn’t unrelated to the black liberation and black power ideology.

    funny how this type of behaviour is not bound to locality. it is exactly what happened in post-Apartheid South Africa. initially the media also tried to frame this as somehow being a morally excusable reaction to Apartheid, or an unforeseeable bug in the new system, but as the professionalism and brutality of the syndicates (with connections to South African intelligence via the ANC’s military wing) became apparent, the media simply began ignoring the horriffic and endemic crime culture. nowdays its considered a feature of post-Apartheid South Africa.

  66. @Jus' Sayin'...
    I've pointed this out before, A small room filled with a pure atmosphere of Nitrogen gas is a very quick and painless way to execute someone. Any person in such a room will lose consciousness within a very short span of time. They will eventually die from lack of Oxygen. The usual, and relatively minor, discomfort caused by anoxia is caused when the body perceives a small buildup in Carbon Dioxide concentration. This will not happen in a pure Nitrogen environment. It is beyond my comprehension why advocates for the death penalty have not championed this method.

    Primarily nitrogen mixed gas systems are used by poultry industry slaughterhouses. Bird respiration is quite different from mammal.

    The cattle industry and I believe pork as well use various captive bolt methods. However electrocutions are still used in cases where animal parts are harvested by the pharmaceutical industry. The captive bolt actually only “stuns” the cow by effectively instantly liquifying the front portions of the brain while leaving the brain stem, nervous system and heart functioning long enough for the cow to be bleed out. Also the captive bolt does not force brain matter into the circulatory system in case of mad cow disease.

    http://www.grandin.com/ritual/euthanasia.slaughter.livestock.html

    A pneumatic captive bolt delivered to the back of the human head, however, would instantly stop all bodily functions and systems.

    No bloody mess as with gravity based decapitation systems(what John Derbyshire recommends), no possible embarrassing screw ups as with hangings, electrocutions, or gas chambers that require a highly trained execution and technical staff to avoid, no doctors betraying their “Hippocratic” oath as with lethal injection.

    China every so often posts videos of major drug traffickers being shot in the back of the head, both men and women. I think that is what the Derb means by “REAL WAR ON DRUGS”!!!.

    There are arguments I suppose against the Death Penalty. I just have never been convinced by the argument that all potential methods of execution are inherently fallible or cruel and unusual punishment.

  67. @Harry Baldwin
    At his first parole hearing in 1984, Winston Moseley made a memorable statement, explaining that he was the real victim of the murder, not Genovese or Annie Mae Johnson, another woman he confessed to having stabbed to death. He was quoted in the New York Daily News:

    "For a victim outside, it's a one-time or one-hour or one-minute affair, but for the person who's caught, it's forever."

    The commissioner was clearly shocked, responding, "Well, that's one way to look at it . . . Miss Genovese and Miss Johnson are no longer with us. . . . But you're here . . . at least it's debatable that you're as bad off as Miss Genovese."

    Later, after telling a commissioner he "never intended to kill Miss Genovese," Moseley said, "What happened then would be called mugging. . . . People do kill people when they mug them sometimes."

    In 1968 he escaped from a hospital in Buffalo, tied up a husband and wife and raped the woman in front of the husband. At one parole hearing, Moseley revealed he had written the victims a letter "to apologize . . . for the inconvenience I caused.

    A commissioner answered, "That's a good way to say it. They were 'inconvenienced.'"

    In a 1990 hearing, he said that during the rape, "No one was hurt."

    A commissioner responded, "Someone was hurt. You don't rape someone without them being injured."

    "Physically injured," Moseley corrected.
     

    That's a real insight into the workings of the criminal mind.
    http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/news/kitty-killer-victim-notoriety-hurt-article-1.697583#ixzz2KObo4Wza

    “For a victim outside, it’s a one-time or one-hour or one-minute affair, but for the person who’s caught, it’s forever.”

    That’s on a par with Sirhan Sirhan’s complaint to his parole board that “I sincerely believe that if Robert Kennedy were alive today, I believe he would not countenance singling me out for this kind of treatment.”

    • Replies: @DCThrowback
    That statement is logically consistent with the belief Sirhan Sirhan was "mind controlled" into being the patsy in the RFK assassination imo.
  68. @Harry Baldwin
    At his first parole hearing in 1984, Winston Moseley made a memorable statement, explaining that he was the real victim of the murder, not Genovese or Annie Mae Johnson, another woman he confessed to having stabbed to death. He was quoted in the New York Daily News:

    "For a victim outside, it's a one-time or one-hour or one-minute affair, but for the person who's caught, it's forever."

    The commissioner was clearly shocked, responding, "Well, that's one way to look at it . . . Miss Genovese and Miss Johnson are no longer with us. . . . But you're here . . . at least it's debatable that you're as bad off as Miss Genovese."

    Later, after telling a commissioner he "never intended to kill Miss Genovese," Moseley said, "What happened then would be called mugging. . . . People do kill people when they mug them sometimes."

    In 1968 he escaped from a hospital in Buffalo, tied up a husband and wife and raped the woman in front of the husband. At one parole hearing, Moseley revealed he had written the victims a letter "to apologize . . . for the inconvenience I caused.

    A commissioner answered, "That's a good way to say it. They were 'inconvenienced.'"

    In a 1990 hearing, he said that during the rape, "No one was hurt."

    A commissioner responded, "Someone was hurt. You don't rape someone without them being injured."

    "Physically injured," Moseley corrected.
     

    That's a real insight into the workings of the criminal mind.
    http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/news/kitty-killer-victim-notoriety-hurt-article-1.697583#ixzz2KObo4Wza

    Harry, My best friend, an attorney, was assigned to represent Mosley at one of his parole hearings. My friend let Mosley ramble on, telling the commissioners that he no longer was a threat to rape any one, because he masturbated every chance he had, parole denied, thankfully.

  69. @Steve Sailer
    Thanks.

    My guess would be that the story brought up a bunch of complicated emotions in Rosenthal that he had a hard time dealing with. He managed to put one or two spins on it -- apathy and the need for some kind of 9-11 phone system -- that had some truth to them, which isn't bad for a newspaper reporter.

    According to the New Yorker article, Rosenthal was put onto the apathy angle by the NYPD AFTER he brought up the fact another man had confessed to a murder that Mosley committed.

    Textbook example of how sources can divert the press and shape a false narrative (see also Mark Felt/DEEP THROT)

  70. @Steve Sailer
    Thanks.

    My guess would be that the story brought up a bunch of complicated emotions in Rosenthal that he had a hard time dealing with. He managed to put one or two spins on it -- apathy and the need for some kind of 9-11 phone system -- that had some truth to them, which isn't bad for a newspaper reporter.

    My guess would be that the story brought up a bunch of complicated emotions in Rosenthal that he had a hard time dealing with. He managed to put one or two spins on it — apathy and the need for some kind of 9-11 phone system — that had some truth to them, which isn’t bad for a newspaper reporter.

    Bearing that in mind, it’s interesting to see what the NYPD police commissioner was actually worried about:

    Ten days after Genovese was killed, he [Rosenthal] went downtown to have lunch with New York City’s police commissioner, Michael Murphy. Murphy spent most of the lunch talking about how worried he was that the civil-rights movement, which was at its peak, would set off racial violence in New York, but toward the end Rosenthal asked him about a curious case, then being covered in the tabloids, in which two men had confessed to the same murder.

    So, Murphy spent the bulk of the interview talking about the looming threat of Black-inspired racial violence. Rosenthal, on the other hand, was worried about apathy……Perhaps another example of the Jewish obsession with the Holocaust narrative (Good Germans doing nothing while Hitler and his associated do their fell work) intruding into American life?

  71. @Horseball
    u was told by an old NY Attorbey General's office hand (responsible for prosoner litigation, not prosecution) that Moseley escaped from Attica to the hospital by shovong a broken bottle up his own ass, thereby creating a wound to aerioys for the prison infirmary. Dude was a bad MF.

    Later, we took a field trip to Attuca and the warden said no ine had ever escaped. I asked about Moseley, but he said he escaped fro the hosptial, not the prison. That was a BS answer to me.

    Horseball, Story around here was that Mosley had a juice can kicked up his rectum, by other inmates. Bethlehem Steel used the same convoluted logic in saying that a worker died at the hospital, not at the plant, thereby keeping their accident tolls down….whatever works I guess

    • Replies: @Stan Adams
    Did you know that no one has ever died at Disney World? Even the guy who blew his brains out in front of Spaceship Earth died in the ambulance.
  72. @anonymous-antimarxist
    It is not like in the last 52 years of marxist lefties wringing their hands over whether or not the death penalty is cruel and unusual punishment there has not been a better method of executing the clearly deserving guilty with a method far simpler than the insanely stupid "lethal injection".

    Oh yes, it can be not only bloodless but has already been used tens if not hundreds of millions of times on large very thick skulled mammals. I am sure some silicon valley robotics genius could rig up a machine to eliminate the need for a human executioner in a weekend.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captive_bolt_pistol

    If the far lefties are still up tight about it, you could even pay some "Temple Grandin" to come up with some "more humane" method where the condemned would not know the precise moment of their execution. I believe the Russian and Chinese still mostly execute their condemned while they go about their daily tasks like traveling the prison hall ways or sitting on the toilet. China limits videoed public executions to those of multiple convicted major drug traffickers who get a quick rifle bullet to the back of the head.

    The assassin, Anton Chigurh, in No Country for Old Men by Cormac McCarthy used one of those on some of his victims. He had it disguised as an oxygen tank with the bolt mechanism hidden in his sleeve. It confused the medical examiner in the small Texas town because the wound looked like it was caused by a small caliber pistol, but there was no exit wound and no bullet in the brain. Excellent book.

  73. @bomag

    people don’t understand stuff unless there’s a number one can bandy about
     
    People understand this stuff for the most part. Politics and social norms are lined up against openly acknowledging such.

    Note that people vote with their feet.

    People vote with their feet and then mouth Lefty BLM style lies in an attempt to cover their tracks. What happens when their feet can’t take them any further? What happens to those whose pockets can’t match the ambitions of their feet? In case you haven’t noticed, it has been the lives and opportunities of the white working class paid in trade as part of this Satanic bargain. What are a few more dead cops when I can live in an overwhelmingly white and Asian neighborhood and still pretend I’m not a bad white? They probably didn’t even go to college.

  74. @Stephen R. Diamond
    Actually, the story was in all the social psych texts because there was a famous experiment done that was said to show we are not apathetic. Instead, when we know others are watching, we assume someone else will take action. The social psychological moral was that the presence of others, ironically, decreases the probability of intervention.

    Not sure how that fits your narrative.

    Yep, that’s what I remember from my social psych class, too. I think that’s also behind the advice that if you’re trying to help someone who’s injured, you don’t yell “someone call 911!,” you point to someone, meet their eyes, and say “You! Call 911!”

    I don’t know if this advice works especially well, but I’ve seen it a couple times now.

  75. @Bugg
    Preface this with Moseley was guilty as hell and deserved the death penalty. But it's a rarely-discussed part of the story that Genovese was kind of out there as a goy hard-drinking party girl in an almost completely Jewish neighborhood. Friend of mine grew up with her, and mentioned this several times when the story came up. Perhaps her neighbors didn't really care because she was so different from themselves.

    Preface this with Moseley was guilty as hell and deserved the death penalty. But it’s a rarely-discussed part of the story that Genovese was kind of out there as a goy hard-drinking party girl in an almost completely Jewish neighborhood. Friend of mine grew up with her, and mentioned this several times when the story came up. Perhaps her neighbors didn’t really care because she was so different from themselves.

    Rarely-discussed online, perhaps, but pretty familiar to those who’ve studied the case. The cops who first brought the police blotter item to Rosenthal’s attention (in the following days) knew the score too, but they didn’t belabor it.

    There’s one other facet, too: the guy who *most clearly and unquestionably* saw the last attack (the one who opened his first floor landing front door and looked directly thirty feet down a staircase to the apartment building lobby where she collapsed for the last time, and who did nothing) was a out male homosexual when that really wasn’t very common in NYC. And he knew Genovese well. The gay vs. lesbian cold war that Steve has written about many times before may be much older than we suspect.

  76. RE: Kitty Genovese case and popular culture,

    I think that I first heard of it when I was 16 and reading Alan Moore’s Watchmen. In it, the ultra-violent vigilante Rorschach begins his activities after learning about the Kitty Genovese murder:

    http://acephalous.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c2df453ef0112793584ff28a4-pi

    As for how a Brit like Moore learned of the case, my best guess is that he probably read Harlan Ellison’s ‘The Whimper of Whipped Dogs”:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Whimper_of_Whipped_Dogs

  77. @Crawfurdmuir
    As feminist Susan Brownmiller pointed out in the 1970s, sex crimes tended to have political connotations. The big increase in black-on-white sex crimes in New York City, Brownmiller suggested, wasn’t unrelated to the black liberation and black power ideology. (Brownmiller called out the Left’s celebration of books by Franz Fanon and boastful rapist Eldridge Cleaver as indicative.) But that’s complicated and distasteful, so let talk about Apathy.

    What if people hadn't been "apathetic"? What if they had acted as that pioneering feminist Rebecca Latimer Felton in her day suggested society should act towards sex criminals like Winston Moseley? There would have been an outcry just the same. When it comes to negro criminality we're damned if we do and damned if we don't.

    Craw, The word pioneering reminds me of “plains” justice, you know, take him out and hang him. Executing Mosley would have saved the Buffalo woman and her husband from the trauma and physical abuse they endured and we wouldn’t be posting about this piece of shit today.

  78. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Why were all those people afraid to help Kitty Genovese? Because New York State’s unconstitutional Sullivan Law forbids them to be armed. Who wants to go outdoors at night when you might get killed by someone who knows he will get away with it? But a much bigger question is: why is THIS question never raised in The Narrative? If those 38 people had possessed firearms and been taught in schools how to use them, the taxpayers would not have had to support Moseley and endure his further crimes.

    • Replies: @Roman Dmowski
    But if you do that you're an overzealous wannabe cop like Zimmerman if a black crook gets killed. That's what bugged me most about Trayvon case; Zimmerman did give a crap, wasn't going to ignore a suspicious person, and was willing to call the cops, and even his multiple 911 calls over a period of years was deemed somehow wrong. We're trained now to ignore patterns, suspicious blacks, etc., in order to end RACISM.
  79. @anonymous-antimarxist
    It is not like in the last 52 years of marxist lefties wringing their hands over whether or not the death penalty is cruel and unusual punishment there has not been a better method of executing the clearly deserving guilty with a method far simpler than the insanely stupid "lethal injection".

    Oh yes, it can be not only bloodless but has already been used tens if not hundreds of millions of times on large very thick skulled mammals. I am sure some silicon valley robotics genius could rig up a machine to eliminate the need for a human executioner in a weekend.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captive_bolt_pistol

    If the far lefties are still up tight about it, you could even pay some "Temple Grandin" to come up with some "more humane" method where the condemned would not know the precise moment of their execution. I believe the Russian and Chinese still mostly execute their condemned while they go about their daily tasks like traveling the prison hall ways or sitting on the toilet. China limits videoed public executions to those of multiple convicted major drug traffickers who get a quick rifle bullet to the back of the head.

    It’s always seemed to me that the guillotine was a more humane form of execution than lethal injection, the electric chair, or the gas chamber. But it’s visibly bloody and it’s associated with the bloodier bits of the French Revolution. (We could rename the agency in charge of executions the Committee for Public Safety, just for old time’s sake.)

    • Replies: @inertial
    I don't know if the story about Lavoisier's blinking head is true, but if it is then the guillotine is one of the less humane forms of execution.
    , @dc.sunsets
    For animal euthanasia I believe a .22 behind the ear is considered on par with an overdose of phenobarbital (or whatever injectable barbiturate is used.)

    I consider the state incompetent to administer capital punishment but strongly favor it at the point of sale, i.e., administered by the (intended) victim at the point where a crime is clearly about to occur.

    Copper-jacketed lead, applied to the cranium at high speed.
  80. @Malcolm X-Lax
    I think the rewritten narrative on this case has something to do with the fact that the neighborhood in which Italian-American lesbian Kitty Genovese was raped and murdered by a black man happened to be largely jewish.

    Malcolm, I don’t follow your thinking. In most large Northeastern cities the Italian and Jewish neighborhoods often abutted each other and the residents got along just fine.

  81. @Steve Sailer
    Price-fixing and other anti-trust violations.

    Ditto, insider trading.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    Hate crimes.

    The rate is 0%, by definition.

    , @Dave Pinsen
    Could be true about insider trading specifically, but there have been some high-profile blacks involved in securities fraud, e.g., Kweku Adoboli and Joseph Jett (who appears to have avoided criminal charges).
  82. @Darkecologist
    "I can see now that mentioning that the killer was black would have been distracting from the political lessons White America was supposed to be drawing at the climax of the Civil Rights era."


    Reminds me of media examples from the 70s and 80s (I'm thinking of movies and comic books) in which punk rockers became a standard criminal element stand in. You could tell those punks were up to no good, and the media makers avoided bringing up racial issues.

    TV shows did this too. I remember an episode of “Quincy” (now being rerun on MeTV) where punk rockers (called “punkers”) were behind some murder plot.

    But the worst offender in this area has to be “Law and Order,” where the villains are more often than not seem to be from prep schools. Or they’re from white collar backgrounds.

  83. Rumours that Kitty was the niece of Vito Genovese, the New York crime boss, were denied by her family.. Remember reading that he was the family member who had identified her body but
    evidently was in prison at the time.
    Moseley’s lawyer argued that there was a connection during an appeal in the mid 1990’s. Vito’s lawyer had also represented Kitty in a minor criminal case.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/news/kitty-kin-face-murderer-killer-bids-new-trial-kitty-kin-face-murderer-killer-bids-new-trial-article-1.702340

    However,her neighbours may havve not known that fact either. Wonder if their decison to ignore things was related to their misconceptions about her.

  84. @PV van der Byl
    Ditto, insider trading.

    Hate crimes.

    The rate is 0%, by definition.

  85. @anonymous-antimarxist
    It is not like in the last 52 years of marxist lefties wringing their hands over whether or not the death penalty is cruel and unusual punishment there has not been a better method of executing the clearly deserving guilty with a method far simpler than the insanely stupid "lethal injection".

    Oh yes, it can be not only bloodless but has already been used tens if not hundreds of millions of times on large very thick skulled mammals. I am sure some silicon valley robotics genius could rig up a machine to eliminate the need for a human executioner in a weekend.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captive_bolt_pistol

    If the far lefties are still up tight about it, you could even pay some "Temple Grandin" to come up with some "more humane" method where the condemned would not know the precise moment of their execution. I believe the Russian and Chinese still mostly execute their condemned while they go about their daily tasks like traveling the prison hall ways or sitting on the toilet. China limits videoed public executions to those of multiple convicted major drug traffickers who get a quick rifle bullet to the back of the head.

    Russia hasn’t executed anyone since 1996.

    • Replies: @anonymous-antimarxist
    You are right. I knew Russia was working to officially abolish the death penalty to get on the good side of the EU but thought this was only a very recent occurrence.

    Time passes very quickly

    But what I remembered was how mass murders like the notorious Andrei_Chikatilo were executed back in 1994.

    They were simply unexpectedly walked into a sound proofed room and shot in the back of the head without ceremony.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrei_Chikatilo#Execution
    , @Hibernian
    Not officiallly.
  86. @Harry Baldwin
    Crack Dealer Freed Early Under Obama Plan Murders Woman and 2 Children . . . 124 illegal immigrant criminals released from jail by the Obama administration since 2010 have been subsequently charged with murder. . . . US official: Gitmo transfers have resulted in American deaths

    Obama gets angry that he has been unable to push through his gun-control agenda--so angry that he shed tears when talking about it. Does he shed tears for all the people for whose deaths he's more directly responsible?

    If only one of those 124 looked like his son Trevon (if he had one) and them maybe he might have cared.

  87. @Dave Pinsen
    I'm not 100% sure I've seen all of the episodes this season or last. The best actors are the ones who play the male characters Ray and Adam (Adam Driver, who went on to star in the Star Wars reboot).

    Brett Easton Ellis (Less Than Zero) thinks this season is the best yet:
    https://twitter.com/BretEastonEllis/status/716833278112571396

    Lion of the Blogosphere used to do episode round ups. I watch the show as well. The Simmons podcast discussed how this season has been a huge bounceback season, too, so BEE is not alone in his thoughts.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    LOTB says he's going to start watching again:
    https://twitter.com/LionBlogosphere/status/716963871353864192
  88. @Jefferson
    "Blacks make up a disproportionate percentage of serial killers."

    Is there any category of crime in The U.S where Blacks are not disproportionate?

    Is there any category of crime where Blacks make up only 13 percent of the offenders?

    A friend, a psychiatrist, who works in the criminal justice system (Hinckley was a patient of his at St. Elizabeth’s in DC), points out that blacks are overrepresented in violent crime and underrepresented in non-violent crime–it’s as simple as that.

    • Replies: @Alec Leamas
    Does he have data to back this up? In his line of work, he'd be called upon to evaluate the mental competency of criminal Defendants, but such evaluations would seem to be much more skewed towards violent crimes. It just doesn't seem like insanity or incompetency to stand trial are likely defenses to be mounted in response to a charge of embezzlement or fraud.
    , @res

    A friend, a psychiatrist, who works in the criminal justice system (Hinckley was a patient of his at St. Elizabeth’s in DC), points out that blacks are overrepresented in violent crime and underrepresented in non-violent crime–it’s as simple as that.
     
    Well, except for not being true. See https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/tables/43tabledatadecoverviewpdf

    Blacks are less overrepresented in most nonviolent crimes (from a footnote: Property crimes are offenses of burglary, larceny-theft, motor vehicle theft, and arson) compared to violent crimes (Violent crimes are offenses of murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault.), but still overrepresented for the most part compared to their population proportion of ~13%.

    Steve has called out elsewhere some categories where blacks are truly underrepesented, but the FBI tables above are not that fine grained (except for some under 18 categories). Interesting to see that arrests for alcohol related offenses are close to parity.
  89. @The Man From K Street

    “For a victim outside, it’s a one-time or one-hour or one-minute affair, but for the person who’s caught, it’s forever.”
     
    That's on a par with Sirhan Sirhan's complaint to his parole board that "I sincerely believe that if Robert Kennedy were alive today, I believe he would not countenance singling me out for this kind of treatment."

    That statement is logically consistent with the belief Sirhan Sirhan was “mind controlled” into being the patsy in the RFK assassination imo.

    • Replies: @dcite
    He showed clear signs of having been under hypnotic influence. This was noted by the investigating doctor.

    Just recently they had a federal court was set to rule on the release of Sirhan, because a 78 year old witness, Rhodes-Hughes tells CNN the FBI's eight-shot claim is "completely false." She says the bureau "twisted" things she told two FBI agents when they interviewed her as an assassination witness in 1968, and she says Harris and her prosecutors are simply "parroting" the bureau's report."

    Manchurian Candidates are a demographic fairly active in the second half of the 20th century. In one interview, he kept saying repeatedly he had been looking for coffee, for coffee, for coffee, in a dreamy voice. But that notwithstanding, he was not the shooter. Certainly not the only. High level political assassinations are NEVER a lone nut. The lone nut is the chosen tale spun by the true perps because it shuts down all inquiry. Case closed. Move on. Nothing to see. Passports and murder notes will rain down from heaven in pristine condition, to prove plans of the lone nut.

    ...

    Even some mainstream media sources have all but admitted to the falsity Sirhan Sirhan as the shooter at all, much less the only shooter.

    "RFK must die", by Shane Sullivan is pretty good.

    But he'll never be released. Too many people are too invested in making sure he doesn't suddenly "remember" more than he's been saying. He lucked out in a way. At least nobody came up and shot him in stomach to spare the family the trouble of his trial.
  90. @Steve Sailer
    Adam Driver was pretty good in the recent Noah Baumbach comedy "While We're Young," which was a better Woody Allen comedy than maybe 9 of the last 10 Woody Allen comedies.

    Thanks, I’ll have to check it out.

  91. @dearieme
    I did smile at "Clinton Correctional Facility". In fact, I hooted.

    It’s in Clinton County, NY. IIRC, it had been known as Dannemora State Prison for eons, but at some point (1970s?) it became fashionable to rename prisons as ‘correctional facilities,’ meanwhile some local place names were changed, due to the negative connotation on the local village.

  92. @NOTA
    It's always seemed to me that the guillotine was a more humane form of execution than lethal injection, the electric chair, or the gas chamber. But it's visibly bloody and it's associated with the bloodier bits of the French Revolution. (We could rename the agency in charge of executions the Committee for Public Safety, just for old time's sake.)

    I don’t know if the story about Lavoisier’s blinking head is true, but if it is then the guillotine is one of the less humane forms of execution.

  93. @Buffalo Joe
    Horseball, Story around here was that Mosley had a juice can kicked up his rectum, by other inmates. Bethlehem Steel used the same convoluted logic in saying that a worker died at the hospital, not at the plant, thereby keeping their accident tolls down....whatever works I guess

    Did you know that no one has ever died at Disney World? Even the guy who blew his brains out in front of Spaceship Earth died in the ambulance.

    • Replies: @prosa123
    Disney World finally dropped the "no one ever dies here" fiction after a monorail operator died in a 2009 crash. It would have been ludicrous to claim that he had died at the hospital because it took a prolonged time to extricate him from the wreckage and he was unmistakably dead when finally freed. The operator's cab had been completely crushed leaving no survival space.
    About a year later, a child was pronounced dead on Disney property after having been run over by a shuttle bus.

    Peter
  94. @PV van der Byl
    Ditto, insider trading.

    Could be true about insider trading specifically, but there have been some high-profile blacks involved in securities fraud, e.g., Kweku Adoboli and Joseph Jett (who appears to have avoided criminal charges).

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    How could you forget perennial iSteve favorite Buddy Fletcher?
  95. @DCThrowback
    Lion of the Blogosphere used to do episode round ups. I watch the show as well. The Simmons podcast discussed how this season has been a huge bounceback season, too, so BEE is not alone in his thoughts.

    LOTB says he’s going to start watching again:

  96. @Steve Sailer
    The Apathy angle of the story was a little bit true.

    Let’s think about this a little more:

    Imagine you carry a gun. It’s like a fire extinguisher, you don’t look for fires, you don’t set fires, but if you are confronted with a fire, you’ll have a tool with which to tackle it in the way that is safest for you.

    You hear some woman screaming and rush to help, your gun in hand. What are some of the possibilities?
    1. She’s just having fun with her man, they see the gun, dial 9-1-1 and you are arrested for UUW, possibly assault with a deadly weapon; you immediately lose your CC license and probably spend at least $5k (maybe $25k) just trying to stay out of jail. You probably lose your job, too.
    2. She’s being beaten by her man, but when you show up they join forces and ATTACK YOU. You are either beaten to death, shot with your own gun or you win the battle and lose the war when you are arrested for assault, possibly murder.
    3. It’s an out-and-out violent crime. You intervene but the assailant rushes you and you are compelled to shoot Trayvon. You’ll be arrested, possibly charged, very possibly subject to a civil suit from his relatives who are very hip to the “lottery” of civil judgments (their friends all own BMW’s courtesy of one settlement or another.)

    The safest thing you can do, for you, is stay far, far away (like 50 yds+), announce that you’re phoning the police and hope that the assailant doesn’t simply murder the victim outright and then rush you (or his buddies you didn’t see don’t rush you.) You thus minimize the odds you’ll be compelled to draw your gun and fire it.

    All in all, “getting involved” is now so thoroughly a courtship with legal and financial disaster that “apathy” about a victim who couldn’t be bothered to see to his or her own defense seems prudent.

    Is it obligatory to help those (adults) who insist on not helping themselves?

    • Replies: @dc.sunsets
    I also forgot another possibility: He has a gun you didn't see and his aim/luck is excellent on the first shot such that your luck runs out.

    Anyone you can see has the potential to hit you with their gun. Getting involved is a deadly serious business with deadly serious consequences where every move you make in haste and ignorance will be examined in minute detail, seen in angles you can't possibly imagine, mostly looking to hang you.

    We are very fortunate; unless you are a Non Asian Minority living in a crime-infested ghetto, your odds of being a victim of violence are lower than almost any time in human history.

    That doesn't mean the odds are zero. As with fire, prudent people have fire extinguishers and know how and when to use them, along with knowing when to dial 9-1-1.
    , @Sean

    You hear some woman screaming and rush to help, your gun in hand. What are some of the possibilities?
     
    Here is one that happened : she is a streetwalker and they are plain clothes cops, When you arrive on the scene gun in hand demanding to know what is going on , without further ado they shoot and seriously wound you, then kill your dog.
    , @Kylie
    Exactly. I would be less likely to intervene in what I perceived as a dangerous criminal situation if I were carrying.

    In fact, I almost certainly would not intervene.
  97. @Hubbub
    I've wondered - never seen any numbers - how many white women have been raped or killed by black men since slavery ended in this country. I'm constantly reminded of the lynchings of blacks - deserved or undeserved - but little about the toll on whites. How much death and destruction has been wrought on whites with the freeing of the black man? I'm sure that some authority has prepared charts or tables referencing such figures, but I cannot seem to locate them.

    Bureau of Justice Statistics in the DOJ collates such information. There have been some stories (I haven’t tried to verify) from seemingly reputable sources that the Obama/Holder DOJ changed public reporting to obfuscate black on white crime stats reporting. The data is available, but it’s apparently lacking in presentation form.

    Ten years ago during the Duke lacrosse incident/scandal, I look at the rape stats, and it was obvious that white men do not rape black women. All inter-racial rapes were black on white (over the prior 10-year period). The data is based on victim reporting of perpetrators. There was one year for white-on-black rape that had an asterisk, with a footnote leading to the conclusion of the exception that proves the general rule. More of the inconvenient facts that will always be ignored by The Narrative.

    • Replies: @Stan d Mute

    I look at the rape stats, and it was obvious that white men do not rape black women.
     
    See? More proof of white male privilege. White men don't have to endure carnal knowledge of Africans.
  98. @NOTA
    It's always seemed to me that the guillotine was a more humane form of execution than lethal injection, the electric chair, or the gas chamber. But it's visibly bloody and it's associated with the bloodier bits of the French Revolution. (We could rename the agency in charge of executions the Committee for Public Safety, just for old time's sake.)

    For animal euthanasia I believe a .22 behind the ear is considered on par with an overdose of phenobarbital (or whatever injectable barbiturate is used.)

    I consider the state incompetent to administer capital punishment but strongly favor it at the point of sale, i.e., administered by the (intended) victim at the point where a crime is clearly about to occur.

    Copper-jacketed lead, applied to the cranium at high speed.

    • Replies: @Alec Leamas
    I wonder what kind of experience you have with the criminal justice and penal systems.

    If the government isn't and can't be competent to execute people, it isn't competent and can't be competent to imprison people in the conditions of the penal system for a term of years or life.
  99. @27 year old
    The other day mrs 25 year old and I were driving down the street when I heard unmistakeable woman screaming coming from down a dark dead-end alley. My dad has told me about kitty Genoevese probably a million times when I was a kid, so I had her stop the car and I ran back to check. I got close enough to see what was happening and there were in fact 2 girls in the alley. One was hysterically crying and screaming at the top of her lungs. the other was trying to calm her down. I stopped short (not wanting to freak them out) and asked in my best cop-voice whether everything was alright. The crying one shut up momentarily and calm one answered that it was "a family tragedy, just leave us alone". So I turned around and left. When I got out of the alley back to the street, a small crowd had gathered at the mouth of the alley listening hesitantly to the screams. But nobody else had gone in to look. Non screaming girl's tone of voice Suggested that I was an asshole for checking on them. Oh well.

    Schools and society have successfully socialized women to act out their inconveniences and emotional outbursts in the form of a drama queen, such that when the shrieking is investigated, the inquiring party is usually told to “fuck off, mind your own business.”

    Watching the NCAA semi-finals Saturday night in a pub, there were a couple 20-something, obese women, shrieking at the top of their lungs in reaction to the game. You’d have thought they were being assaulted…

  100. @Dave Pinsen
    Could be true about insider trading specifically, but there have been some high-profile blacks involved in securities fraud, e.g., Kweku Adoboli and Joseph Jett (who appears to have avoided criminal charges).

    How could you forget perennial iSteve favorite Buddy Fletcher?

  101. @Steve Sailer
    The Apathy angle of the story was a little bit true.

    I thought it was partially fear of jumping to a racist conclusion. Kitty kept herself to herself and even for neighbours there was no way to know that they were not witnessing an interracial couple having a violent argument, and or public sex.

  102. @Forbes
    A friend, a psychiatrist, who works in the criminal justice system (Hinckley was a patient of his at St. Elizabeth's in DC), points out that blacks are overrepresented in violent crime and underrepresented in non-violent crime--it's as simple as that.

    Does he have data to back this up? In his line of work, he’d be called upon to evaluate the mental competency of criminal Defendants, but such evaluations would seem to be much more skewed towards violent crimes. It just doesn’t seem like insanity or incompetency to stand trial are likely defenses to be mounted in response to a charge of embezzlement or fraud.

    • Replies: @Forbes
    True, his line of work is skewed towards violent crime--hence, he sees the proclivity to violence. The question of sanity vs insanity is actually quite rare compared to the frequency in news media or fictional TV.
  103. To clear up some misconceptions about the case:

    – Kitty Genovese was unrelated to the Mob family of the same name. What may have fed the rumors was her minor criminal record for gambling activities. The record resulted from her promotion/sponsorship of some low-level betting at the bar she managed, activities which were commonplace in bars at the time and seldom if ever were Mob-connected. In any event, Genovese (“person from Genoa”) is not an uncommon Italian surname.
    – Almost no one, including her family members, were aware that Genovese was a lesbian. She had been briefly married to a man and at the time of her death kept her cohabitation with a woman secret.
    – Most of the neighbors who heard or saw some commotion on the sidewalk assumed that it involved drunken patrons from a nearby bar, which was notorious for attracting a disorderly crowd. Mosely’s fatal attack, unmistakable to anyone who saw it, happened out of sight in Genovese’s apartment vestibule.
    – Whatever Rosenthal’s faults may have been, he was quite right in trying to use the incident to spark a drive for better emergency telephone service. At the time of the murder, New Yorker who needed to summon the police had to call not the main NYPD number, but the number for the precinct with jurisdiction over the area. Even dialing “O” could lead to significant delays as the operator looked up the appropriate number.
    – Lastly, there’s probably no major crime scene as visible to the public as this one. The door to the apartment vestibule is literally about 20 feet from the Long Island Rail Road tracks, in plain sight of tens of thousands of commuters every day.

    Peter

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    I had a cell phone in Chicago in 1991. I was driving down the street and a car was in flames. So, I pulled it out and called 911. I got the 911 operator ... in Barrington, IL, about 40 miles out of town. The operator said that must be why they've been getting so many calls lately about traffic accidents on Lake Shore Drive.

    It took several years to get 911 on cell phones straightened out.

    , @Marcus
    Interesting considering that the large majority of immigrants came from southern Italy & Sicily, also the regions associated with the mob.
  104. @dc.sunsets
    Let's think about this a little more:

    Imagine you carry a gun. It's like a fire extinguisher, you don't look for fires, you don't set fires, but if you are confronted with a fire, you'll have a tool with which to tackle it in the way that is safest for you.

    You hear some woman screaming and rush to help, your gun in hand. What are some of the possibilities?
    1. She's just having fun with her man, they see the gun, dial 9-1-1 and you are arrested for UUW, possibly assault with a deadly weapon; you immediately lose your CC license and probably spend at least $5k (maybe $25k) just trying to stay out of jail. You probably lose your job, too.
    2. She's being beaten by her man, but when you show up they join forces and ATTACK YOU. You are either beaten to death, shot with your own gun or you win the battle and lose the war when you are arrested for assault, possibly murder.
    3. It's an out-and-out violent crime. You intervene but the assailant rushes you and you are compelled to shoot Trayvon. You'll be arrested, possibly charged, very possibly subject to a civil suit from his relatives who are very hip to the "lottery" of civil judgments (their friends all own BMW's courtesy of one settlement or another.)

    The safest thing you can do, for you, is stay far, far away (like 50 yds+), announce that you're phoning the police and hope that the assailant doesn't simply murder the victim outright and then rush you (or his buddies you didn't see don't rush you.) You thus minimize the odds you'll be compelled to draw your gun and fire it.

    All in all, "getting involved" is now so thoroughly a courtship with legal and financial disaster that "apathy" about a victim who couldn't be bothered to see to his or her own defense seems prudent.

    Is it obligatory to help those (adults) who insist on not helping themselves?

    I also forgot another possibility: He has a gun you didn’t see and his aim/luck is excellent on the first shot such that your luck runs out.

    Anyone you can see has the potential to hit you with their gun. Getting involved is a deadly serious business with deadly serious consequences where every move you make in haste and ignorance will be examined in minute detail, seen in angles you can’t possibly imagine, mostly looking to hang you.

    We are very fortunate; unless you are a Non Asian Minority living in a crime-infested ghetto, your odds of being a victim of violence are lower than almost any time in human history.

    That doesn’t mean the odds are zero. As with fire, prudent people have fire extinguishers and know how and when to use them, along with knowing when to dial 9-1-1.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "We are very fortunate; unless you are a Non Asian Minority living in a crime-infested ghetto, your odds of being a victim of violence are lower than almost any time in human history."

    I object. This comment disrupts the overall narrative. Here, let me help you as you probably failed get the morning talking points memo-- the odds that an American-Muslim committing jihad in white neighborhoods is actually quite high, thus we must deport every single one of them to their home country. It is the only way to keep white citizens safe.
  105. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    I was 8 eight-years-old and lived a few miles from the place where Ms. Genovese was murdered. It was not until just a few years ago that I learned her killer was a negro. That fact was obscured in a way that seems almost impossible to me. Like the author of the article, I’ve heard references to the case my entire life. But never that the crime was a negro rapists/killer murdering that young woman. That was no accident. It was the early days of journalism’s program to eliminate, to whatever extent possible, the public’s knowledge of negro savagery. We live in a society built on lies.

    • Agree: dc.sunsets
    • Replies: @Bad memories
    Let's hope that, like Bill Clinton, he had no offspring.
    , @Lugash
    Same thing with the the Rolling Stones concert at Altamont. Never saw a picture of Meredith Hunter(in distinctive lime green pimpsuit) until I searched for him on the Internet.
    , @Harry Baldwin
    And, to beat a dead horse, if she had been black and her killer white, the racial angle would be played up as much as with Emmett Till.
  106. @dc.sunsets
    For animal euthanasia I believe a .22 behind the ear is considered on par with an overdose of phenobarbital (or whatever injectable barbiturate is used.)

    I consider the state incompetent to administer capital punishment but strongly favor it at the point of sale, i.e., administered by the (intended) victim at the point where a crime is clearly about to occur.

    Copper-jacketed lead, applied to the cranium at high speed.

    I wonder what kind of experience you have with the criminal justice and penal systems.

    If the government isn’t and can’t be competent to execute people, it isn’t competent and can’t be competent to imprison people in the conditions of the penal system for a term of years or life.

    • Replies: @dc.sunsets
    I can imagine myself being the wrong guy at the wrong place at the wrong time, and thus becoming a pawn in an otherwise unaccountable prosecutor's political aspirations.

    From https://www.lewrockwell.com/2013/04/william-l-anderson/do-you-feel-protected-by-police-and-prosecutors/

    Prosecutors, both state and federal, enjoy absolute immunity from lawsuits regardless of their misconduct, and often the misconduct can be personally destructive:

    In 10 cases identified by ProPublica, defendants convicted at least in part because of a prosecutor’s abuse were ultimately exonerated, often after years in prison.

    Shih-Wei Su was incarcerated for 12 years on attempted murder charges before a federal appeals court cleared him, finding that a prosecutor had “knowingly elicited false testimony” in winning a conviction. The city (New York) eventually paid Su $3.5 million. The prosecutor received nothing more than a private reprimand.

    Jabbar Collins served 15 years in prison for a murder he didn’t commit before his conviction was thrown out in 2010; Michael Vecchione, a senior Brooklyn prosecutor, had withheld critical evidence during trial. Collins has filed a $150 million lawsuit against the city. No action has been taken against Vecchione.

    Last July, two men filed lawsuits for a combined $240 million against the city for wrongful convictions that a state appeals court found were won in part because Manhattan prosecutors had withheld evidence. The men served 36 years in prison, collectively. The prosecutor, who long ago left the district attorney’s office, has not been publicly disciplined.

    The lack of discipline for prosecutors that have broken the law is hardly limited to New York City. In 2010, Tonya Craft was put on trial in Catoosa County, Georgia, on what clearly were trumped-up charges of child molestation. The prosecutors, Christopher Arnt and Len Gregor, had a number of illegal (and secret) meetings with the judge, Brian House, who did everything he could to keep out exculpatory evidence.

    However, despite the massive misconduct by Arnt and Gregor (which I have outlined many times in my own blog), the jurors quickly saw through the lies and acquitted Craft. When I spoke to the office of the Georgia State Bar that disciplines attorneys, I was told in no uncertain terms that the Georgia Bar considered what clearly would be illegal conduct by prosecutors to be just “doing their jobs.”
     
    People entrusted with such power should be held to astonishingly higher standards than the rest of us. Instead, they are insulated from the consequences of crimes they commit with clearly guilty minds. What a paradox.
    , @Xenophon Hendrix
    The release of wrongfully convicted prisoners regularly makes the news.
  107. @prosa123
    To clear up some misconceptions about the case:

    - Kitty Genovese was unrelated to the Mob family of the same name. What may have fed the rumors was her minor criminal record for gambling activities. The record resulted from her promotion/sponsorship of some low-level betting at the bar she managed, activities which were commonplace in bars at the time and seldom if ever were Mob-connected. In any event, Genovese ("person from Genoa") is not an uncommon Italian surname.
    - Almost no one, including her family members, were aware that Genovese was a lesbian. She had been briefly married to a man and at the time of her death kept her cohabitation with a woman secret.
    - Most of the neighbors who heard or saw some commotion on the sidewalk assumed that it involved drunken patrons from a nearby bar, which was notorious for attracting a disorderly crowd. Mosely's fatal attack, unmistakable to anyone who saw it, happened out of sight in Genovese's apartment vestibule.
    - Whatever Rosenthal's faults may have been, he was quite right in trying to use the incident to spark a drive for better emergency telephone service. At the time of the murder, New Yorker who needed to summon the police had to call not the main NYPD number, but the number for the precinct with jurisdiction over the area. Even dialing "O" could lead to significant delays as the operator looked up the appropriate number.
    - Lastly, there's probably no major crime scene as visible to the public as this one. The door to the apartment vestibule is literally about 20 feet from the Long Island Rail Road tracks, in plain sight of tens of thousands of commuters every day.

    Peter
    -

    I had a cell phone in Chicago in 1991. I was driving down the street and a car was in flames. So, I pulled it out and called 911. I got the 911 operator … in Barrington, IL, about 40 miles out of town. The operator said that must be why they’ve been getting so many calls lately about traffic accidents on Lake Shore Drive.

    It took several years to get 911 on cell phones straightened out.

    • Replies: @Jefferson
    "I had a cell phone in Chicago in 1991. I was driving down the street and a car was in flames. So, I pulled it out and called 911. I got the 911 operator … in Barrington, IL, about 40 miles out of town. The operator said that must be why they’ve been getting so many calls lately about traffic accidents on Lake Shore Drive.

    It took several years to get 911 on cell phones straightened out."

    You had that huge Zack Morris from Saved By The Bell looking 90s cellphone?
  108. res says:
    @Forbes
    A friend, a psychiatrist, who works in the criminal justice system (Hinckley was a patient of his at St. Elizabeth's in DC), points out that blacks are overrepresented in violent crime and underrepresented in non-violent crime--it's as simple as that.

    A friend, a psychiatrist, who works in the criminal justice system (Hinckley was a patient of his at St. Elizabeth’s in DC), points out that blacks are overrepresented in violent crime and underrepresented in non-violent crime–it’s as simple as that.

    Well, except for not being true. See https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/tables/43tabledatadecoverviewpdf

    Blacks are less overrepresented in most nonviolent crimes (from a footnote: Property crimes are offenses of burglary, larceny-theft, motor vehicle theft, and arson) compared to violent crimes (Violent crimes are offenses of murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault.), but still overrepresented for the most part compared to their population proportion of ~13%.

    Steve has called out elsewhere some categories where blacks are truly underrepesented, but the FBI tables above are not that fine grained (except for some under 18 categories). Interesting to see that arrests for alcohol related offenses are close to parity.

    • Replies: @Forbes
    I see your point. Probably my infelicity in language use. If I understand your point, and the linked data (looking it over quickly), blacks would be most overrepresented in violent crime, less so overrepresented in non-violent crime. IIRC, his point was the proclivity to violence for blacks vis-à-vis whites.

    I'm not familiar with the FBI arrest data (which is not a complete picture of crime), my familiarity lies with (victim complaint of) crime report data collated by Bureau od Justice Statistics.
  109. @dc.sunsets
    Let's think about this a little more:

    Imagine you carry a gun. It's like a fire extinguisher, you don't look for fires, you don't set fires, but if you are confronted with a fire, you'll have a tool with which to tackle it in the way that is safest for you.

    You hear some woman screaming and rush to help, your gun in hand. What are some of the possibilities?
    1. She's just having fun with her man, they see the gun, dial 9-1-1 and you are arrested for UUW, possibly assault with a deadly weapon; you immediately lose your CC license and probably spend at least $5k (maybe $25k) just trying to stay out of jail. You probably lose your job, too.
    2. She's being beaten by her man, but when you show up they join forces and ATTACK YOU. You are either beaten to death, shot with your own gun or you win the battle and lose the war when you are arrested for assault, possibly murder.
    3. It's an out-and-out violent crime. You intervene but the assailant rushes you and you are compelled to shoot Trayvon. You'll be arrested, possibly charged, very possibly subject to a civil suit from his relatives who are very hip to the "lottery" of civil judgments (their friends all own BMW's courtesy of one settlement or another.)

    The safest thing you can do, for you, is stay far, far away (like 50 yds+), announce that you're phoning the police and hope that the assailant doesn't simply murder the victim outright and then rush you (or his buddies you didn't see don't rush you.) You thus minimize the odds you'll be compelled to draw your gun and fire it.

    All in all, "getting involved" is now so thoroughly a courtship with legal and financial disaster that "apathy" about a victim who couldn't be bothered to see to his or her own defense seems prudent.

    Is it obligatory to help those (adults) who insist on not helping themselves?

    You hear some woman screaming and rush to help, your gun in hand. What are some of the possibilities?

    Here is one that happened : she is a streetwalker and they are plain clothes cops, When you arrive on the scene gun in hand demanding to know what is going on , without further ado they shoot and seriously wound you, then kill your dog.

    • Replies: @dc.sunsets

    without further ado they shoot and seriously wound you, then kill your dog.
     
    Normal citizens (frequently even common crooks) are reluctant to open fire on cops.

    Cops, however, are now trained like (or recently mustered out of) the military: don't hesitate, shoot immediately so you go home that night and if it wasn't some mass murderer you killed, well...shit happens. Pass me another beer, will you?


    This is what "shoot house" training teaches. Hesitate to insure you're doing the right thing can get you killed, so stop worrying about doing the wrong thing.
  110. @Stan Adams
    Did you know that no one has ever died at Disney World? Even the guy who blew his brains out in front of Spaceship Earth died in the ambulance.

    Disney World finally dropped the “no one ever dies here” fiction after a monorail operator died in a 2009 crash. It would have been ludicrous to claim that he had died at the hospital because it took a prolonged time to extricate him from the wreckage and he was unmistakably dead when finally freed. The operator’s cab had been completely crushed leaving no survival space.
    About a year later, a child was pronounced dead on Disney property after having been run over by a shuttle bus.

    Peter

  111. @inertial
    Russia hasn't executed anyone since 1996.

    You are right. I knew Russia was working to officially abolish the death penalty to get on the good side of the EU but thought this was only a very recent occurrence.

    Time passes very quickly

    But what I remembered was how mass murders like the notorious Andrei_Chikatilo were executed back in 1994.

    They were simply unexpectedly walked into a sound proofed room and shot in the back of the head without ceremony.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrei_Chikatilo#Execution

  112. @dc.sunsets
    Let's think about this a little more:

    Imagine you carry a gun. It's like a fire extinguisher, you don't look for fires, you don't set fires, but if you are confronted with a fire, you'll have a tool with which to tackle it in the way that is safest for you.

    You hear some woman screaming and rush to help, your gun in hand. What are some of the possibilities?
    1. She's just having fun with her man, they see the gun, dial 9-1-1 and you are arrested for UUW, possibly assault with a deadly weapon; you immediately lose your CC license and probably spend at least $5k (maybe $25k) just trying to stay out of jail. You probably lose your job, too.
    2. She's being beaten by her man, but when you show up they join forces and ATTACK YOU. You are either beaten to death, shot with your own gun or you win the battle and lose the war when you are arrested for assault, possibly murder.
    3. It's an out-and-out violent crime. You intervene but the assailant rushes you and you are compelled to shoot Trayvon. You'll be arrested, possibly charged, very possibly subject to a civil suit from his relatives who are very hip to the "lottery" of civil judgments (their friends all own BMW's courtesy of one settlement or another.)

    The safest thing you can do, for you, is stay far, far away (like 50 yds+), announce that you're phoning the police and hope that the assailant doesn't simply murder the victim outright and then rush you (or his buddies you didn't see don't rush you.) You thus minimize the odds you'll be compelled to draw your gun and fire it.

    All in all, "getting involved" is now so thoroughly a courtship with legal and financial disaster that "apathy" about a victim who couldn't be bothered to see to his or her own defense seems prudent.

    Is it obligatory to help those (adults) who insist on not helping themselves?

    Exactly. I would be less likely to intervene in what I perceived as a dangerous criminal situation if I were carrying.

    In fact, I almost certainly would not intervene.

  113. @Alec Leamas
    I wonder what kind of experience you have with the criminal justice and penal systems.

    If the government isn't and can't be competent to execute people, it isn't competent and can't be competent to imprison people in the conditions of the penal system for a term of years or life.

    I can imagine myself being the wrong guy at the wrong place at the wrong time, and thus becoming a pawn in an otherwise unaccountable prosecutor’s political aspirations.

    From https://www.lewrockwell.com/2013/04/william-l-anderson/do-you-feel-protected-by-police-and-prosecutors/

    Prosecutors, both state and federal, enjoy absolute immunity from lawsuits regardless of their misconduct, and often the misconduct can be personally destructive:

    In 10 cases identified by ProPublica, defendants convicted at least in part because of a prosecutor’s abuse were ultimately exonerated, often after years in prison.

    Shih-Wei Su was incarcerated for 12 years on attempted murder charges before a federal appeals court cleared him, finding that a prosecutor had “knowingly elicited false testimony” in winning a conviction. The city (New York) eventually paid Su $3.5 million. The prosecutor received nothing more than a private reprimand.

    Jabbar Collins served 15 years in prison for a murder he didn’t commit before his conviction was thrown out in 2010; Michael Vecchione, a senior Brooklyn prosecutor, had withheld critical evidence during trial. Collins has filed a $150 million lawsuit against the city. No action has been taken against Vecchione.

    Last July, two men filed lawsuits for a combined $240 million against the city for wrongful convictions that a state appeals court found were won in part because Manhattan prosecutors had withheld evidence. The men served 36 years in prison, collectively. The prosecutor, who long ago left the district attorney’s office, has not been publicly disciplined.

    The lack of discipline for prosecutors that have broken the law is hardly limited to New York City. In 2010, Tonya Craft was put on trial in Catoosa County, Georgia, on what clearly were trumped-up charges of child molestation. The prosecutors, Christopher Arnt and Len Gregor, had a number of illegal (and secret) meetings with the judge, Brian House, who did everything he could to keep out exculpatory evidence.

    However, despite the massive misconduct by Arnt and Gregor (which I have outlined many times in my own blog), the jurors quickly saw through the lies and acquitted Craft. When I spoke to the office of the Georgia State Bar that disciplines attorneys, I was told in no uncertain terms that the Georgia Bar considered what clearly would be illegal conduct by prosecutors to be just “doing their jobs.”

    People entrusted with such power should be held to astonishingly higher standards than the rest of us. Instead, they are insulated from the consequences of crimes they commit with clearly guilty minds. What a paradox.

  114. This has some parts of the story the NYTimes left out. Like the later victims of Mosley

    http://thenewinquiry.com/essays/dont-look-now/

  115. @Alec Leamas
    I wonder what kind of experience you have with the criminal justice and penal systems.

    If the government isn't and can't be competent to execute people, it isn't competent and can't be competent to imprison people in the conditions of the penal system for a term of years or life.

    The release of wrongfully convicted prisoners regularly makes the news.

    • Replies: @Alec Leamas
    Pursuit of criminal justice is a human endeavor. It will never be perfect. In a nation of 300 million, nearly any phenomenon can be made to look like an epidemic.

    I think my point was that it is an absolutely necessary component of a civil society, however if it lacks credibility to such an extent that you can't trust it to execute people (N.B. procedural safeguards in a capital case are greater than in other criminal cases), can you trust it to deprive a man of his liberty for ten years? Twenty? Life?
  116. @Anonymous
    I was 8 eight-years-old and lived a few miles from the place where Ms. Genovese was murdered. It was not until just a few years ago that I learned her killer was a negro. That fact was obscured in a way that seems almost impossible to me. Like the author of the article, I've heard references to the case my entire life. But never that the crime was a negro rapists/killer murdering that young woman. That was no accident. It was the early days of journalism's program to eliminate, to whatever extent possible, the public's knowledge of negro savagery. We live in a society built on lies.

    Let’s hope that, like Bill Clinton, he had no offspring.

  117. @Anonymous
    I was 8 eight-years-old and lived a few miles from the place where Ms. Genovese was murdered. It was not until just a few years ago that I learned her killer was a negro. That fact was obscured in a way that seems almost impossible to me. Like the author of the article, I've heard references to the case my entire life. But never that the crime was a negro rapists/killer murdering that young woman. That was no accident. It was the early days of journalism's program to eliminate, to whatever extent possible, the public's knowledge of negro savagery. We live in a society built on lies.

    Same thing with the the Rolling Stones concert at Altamont. Never saw a picture of Meredith Hunter(in distinctive lime green pimpsuit) until I searched for him on the Internet.

  118. Makes me think we should have a national death penalty. And not make it lethal injection; but, rather, firing squad.

    Would stop much.

  119. @Forbes
    Bureau of Justice Statistics in the DOJ collates such information. There have been some stories (I haven't tried to verify) from seemingly reputable sources that the Obama/Holder DOJ changed public reporting to obfuscate black on white crime stats reporting. The data is available, but it's apparently lacking in presentation form.

    Ten years ago during the Duke lacrosse incident/scandal, I look at the rape stats, and it was obvious that white men do not rape black women. All inter-racial rapes were black on white (over the prior 10-year period). The data is based on victim reporting of perpetrators. There was one year for white-on-black rape that had an asterisk, with a footnote leading to the conclusion of the exception that proves the general rule. More of the inconvenient facts that will always be ignored by The Narrative.

    I look at the rape stats, and it was obvious that white men do not rape black women.

    See? More proof of white male privilege. White men don’t have to endure carnal knowledge of Africans.

  120. @Steve Sailer
    Price-fixing and other anti-trust violations.

    “Price-fixing and other anti-trust violations.”

    Any statistics?

  121. @Steve Sailer
    I had a cell phone in Chicago in 1991. I was driving down the street and a car was in flames. So, I pulled it out and called 911. I got the 911 operator ... in Barrington, IL, about 40 miles out of town. The operator said that must be why they've been getting so many calls lately about traffic accidents on Lake Shore Drive.

    It took several years to get 911 on cell phones straightened out.

    “I had a cell phone in Chicago in 1991. I was driving down the street and a car was in flames. So, I pulled it out and called 911. I got the 911 operator … in Barrington, IL, about 40 miles out of town. The operator said that must be why they’ve been getting so many calls lately about traffic accidents on Lake Shore Drive.

    It took several years to get 911 on cell phones straightened out.”

    You had that huge Zack Morris from Saved By The Bell looking 90s cellphone?

  122. @prosa123
    To clear up some misconceptions about the case:

    - Kitty Genovese was unrelated to the Mob family of the same name. What may have fed the rumors was her minor criminal record for gambling activities. The record resulted from her promotion/sponsorship of some low-level betting at the bar she managed, activities which were commonplace in bars at the time and seldom if ever were Mob-connected. In any event, Genovese ("person from Genoa") is not an uncommon Italian surname.
    - Almost no one, including her family members, were aware that Genovese was a lesbian. She had been briefly married to a man and at the time of her death kept her cohabitation with a woman secret.
    - Most of the neighbors who heard or saw some commotion on the sidewalk assumed that it involved drunken patrons from a nearby bar, which was notorious for attracting a disorderly crowd. Mosely's fatal attack, unmistakable to anyone who saw it, happened out of sight in Genovese's apartment vestibule.
    - Whatever Rosenthal's faults may have been, he was quite right in trying to use the incident to spark a drive for better emergency telephone service. At the time of the murder, New Yorker who needed to summon the police had to call not the main NYPD number, but the number for the precinct with jurisdiction over the area. Even dialing "O" could lead to significant delays as the operator looked up the appropriate number.
    - Lastly, there's probably no major crime scene as visible to the public as this one. The door to the apartment vestibule is literally about 20 feet from the Long Island Rail Road tracks, in plain sight of tens of thousands of commuters every day.

    Peter
    -

    Interesting considering that the large majority of immigrants came from southern Italy & Sicily, also the regions associated with the mob.

    • Replies: @Alec Leamas
    Vito Genovese himself was from a village outside of Naples. I'd imagine that the Genovese name was indicative of a patrilineal ancestor immigrating to the Naples area from Genoa.
  123. He escaped in 1968 and raped another woman who he held hostage. I blame the cops for not killing after that. Even while in custody, an “accident” could’ve happened. He could’ve attempted another “escape” out of a fifth story window, or something.

  124. @Harry Baldwin
    At his first parole hearing in 1984, Winston Moseley made a memorable statement, explaining that he was the real victim of the murder, not Genovese or Annie Mae Johnson, another woman he confessed to having stabbed to death. He was quoted in the New York Daily News:

    "For a victim outside, it's a one-time or one-hour or one-minute affair, but for the person who's caught, it's forever."

    The commissioner was clearly shocked, responding, "Well, that's one way to look at it . . . Miss Genovese and Miss Johnson are no longer with us. . . . But you're here . . . at least it's debatable that you're as bad off as Miss Genovese."

    Later, after telling a commissioner he "never intended to kill Miss Genovese," Moseley said, "What happened then would be called mugging. . . . People do kill people when they mug them sometimes."

    In 1968 he escaped from a hospital in Buffalo, tied up a husband and wife and raped the woman in front of the husband. At one parole hearing, Moseley revealed he had written the victims a letter "to apologize . . . for the inconvenience I caused.

    A commissioner answered, "That's a good way to say it. They were 'inconvenienced.'"

    In a 1990 hearing, he said that during the rape, "No one was hurt."

    A commissioner responded, "Someone was hurt. You don't rape someone without them being injured."

    "Physically injured," Moseley corrected.
     

    That's a real insight into the workings of the criminal mind.
    http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/news/kitty-killer-victim-notoriety-hurt-article-1.697583#ixzz2KObo4Wza

    That’s a real insight into the workings of the criminal mind.

    And the defense attorney’s as well.

    Ruth Bader Ginsburg’s last argued case, Duren v Missouri, was the one that forced women onto juries for good. She made a feminist case, but that’s not what Duren and his attorneys had in mind.

    No, defense attorneys were pushing to kill the womens’ optional exemption for years because women were significantly more reluctant than men to convict. The law itself was popular with the public; most women took advantage of it, and men didn’t complain, either. If it ain’t broke, don’t neuter it.

    The only women who cheered the decision were the mothers of crooks!

  125. Steve, and was that cellphone in 1991 the size of a brick? With calls costing $1 to $2 per minute?
    To add to what DC Sunsets said about liability in self defense: I took the IL Concealed Carry course about a year and a half ago. The instructors gave us a brochure about insurance policies the NRA sold for gun owners in case they ever used a gun for self defense. I forget the exact numbers quoted but we in the class were told if you shot someone your legal bills could run to $100-$200,000 while the State’s Attorney was deciding whether or not the shooting was justified and the lawyers fought off any civil lawsuits.
    I do have a CCW permit, but it’s for the protection of me and those with me. I certainly don’t feel freer to check in on anyone else’s drama.

  126. @Harry Baldwin
    At his first parole hearing in 1984, Winston Moseley made a memorable statement, explaining that he was the real victim of the murder, not Genovese or Annie Mae Johnson, another woman he confessed to having stabbed to death. He was quoted in the New York Daily News:

    "For a victim outside, it's a one-time or one-hour or one-minute affair, but for the person who's caught, it's forever."

    The commissioner was clearly shocked, responding, "Well, that's one way to look at it . . . Miss Genovese and Miss Johnson are no longer with us. . . . But you're here . . . at least it's debatable that you're as bad off as Miss Genovese."

    Later, after telling a commissioner he "never intended to kill Miss Genovese," Moseley said, "What happened then would be called mugging. . . . People do kill people when they mug them sometimes."

    In 1968 he escaped from a hospital in Buffalo, tied up a husband and wife and raped the woman in front of the husband. At one parole hearing, Moseley revealed he had written the victims a letter "to apologize . . . for the inconvenience I caused.

    A commissioner answered, "That's a good way to say it. They were 'inconvenienced.'"

    In a 1990 hearing, he said that during the rape, "No one was hurt."

    A commissioner responded, "Someone was hurt. You don't rape someone without them being injured."

    "Physically injured," Moseley corrected.
     

    That's a real insight into the workings of the criminal mind.
    http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/news/kitty-killer-victim-notoriety-hurt-article-1.697583#ixzz2KObo4Wza

    “For a victim outside, it’s a one-time or one-hour or one-minute affair, but for the person who’s caught, it’s forever.”

    The commissioner was clearly shocked, responding, “Well, that’s one way to look at it . . . Miss Genovese and Miss Johnson are no longer with us. . . . But you’re here . . . at least it’s debatable that you’re as bad off as Miss Genovese.”

    Later, after telling a commissioner he “never intended to kill Miss Genovese,” Moseley said, “What happened then would be called mugging. . . . People do kill people when they mug them sometimes.”

    In 1968 he escaped from a hospital in Buffalo, tied up a husband and wife and raped the woman in front of the husband. At one parole hearing, Moseley revealed he had written the victims a letter “to apologize . . . for the inconvenience I caused.

    A commissioner answered, “That’s a good way to say it. They were ‘inconvenienced.’”

    In a 1990 hearing, he said that during the rape, “No one was hurt.”

    A commissioner responded, “Someone was hurt. You don’t rape someone without them being injured.”

    “Physically injured,” Moseley corrected.

    It’s worth noting, after one reads this, that New York State has 1) outlawed capital punishment, and 2) made it nearly impossible to carry or even own a handgun for self-defense. It can take over a year to obtain an New York license to merely OWN a handgun, the issuance of which is completely discretionary. Carrying it is another matter entirely. The license is revocable at any time for any reason.

    New York is also a “duty to retreat” state — meaning that if you are attacked by someone, YOU must prove to the jury that you tried to run away from the criminal before you defended yourself.

    In other words, the narrative that crime is “society’s fault” has real-world consequences — the laws of New York essentially side with the criminal, and against the honest citizen.

    The Left would just absolutely love to impose these “New York values” on the rest of the nation.

    • Replies: @prosa123
    New York State has never outlawed capital punishment. A state appellate court declared it unconstitutional based on a rather narrow issue, and the proponents have so far been unable to muster up enough votes in the legislature to correct this minor issue.
    , @Forbes
    In New York City (five boroughs, technically five counties of NYC) it is quite difficult to obtain a handgun permit. Less so in the rest of the state (the remaining 57 counties). New York State has two types of handgun permits (last I checked): CCW, and business premise. NYC has 5 types--only one being a CCW (unrestricted special carry). It is possible to get a business premise permit in NYC--with great difficulty. CCW, apparently, is only available for celebrities, as any disclosed list of holders would demonstrate (Trump, De Niro, Don Imus, Sean Hannity, Harvey Keitel). The easiest way to obtain an unrestricted special carry is to be retired NYPD.
  127. @Anonymous
    I was 8 eight-years-old and lived a few miles from the place where Ms. Genovese was murdered. It was not until just a few years ago that I learned her killer was a negro. That fact was obscured in a way that seems almost impossible to me. Like the author of the article, I've heard references to the case my entire life. But never that the crime was a negro rapists/killer murdering that young woman. That was no accident. It was the early days of journalism's program to eliminate, to whatever extent possible, the public's knowledge of negro savagery. We live in a society built on lies.

    And, to beat a dead horse, if she had been black and her killer white, the racial angle would be played up as much as with Emmett Till.

  128. @Auntie Analogue
    At least Moseley won't be among the convicts taking advantage of Obama's latest rash of sentence commutations: https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2016/03/30/president-obama-grants-commutations

    Under the Constitution (remember that) the President can only pardon Federal crimes.

  129. @Steve Sailer
    The Apathy angle of the story was a little bit true.

    I’m wondering how much of the “apathy” angle was promoted by the police to change the subject from the fact that no cop responded?

  130. @Jefferson
    "Blacks make up a disproportionate percentage of serial killers."

    Is there any category of crime in The U.S where Blacks are not disproportionate?

    Is there any category of crime where Blacks make up only 13 percent of the offenders?

    Any kind of white collar crime. Something like what Bernie Madoff did would be far beyond the ability of 99.9% of blacks.

    Nigerians are big time scammers but they (especially Ibo/Igbo) are much smarter than American blacks. They are the kind of people who SOLD the American blacks into the slave trade.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    What Bernie Madoff did wasn't terribly sophisticated. It was a Ponzi scam. African Americans are capable of those. E.g., http://financialjuneteenth.com/former-nfl-star-allegedly-scammed-other-athletes-with-ponzi-scheme/
  131. @inertial
    Russia hasn't executed anyone since 1996.

    Not officiallly.

  132. @Jack D
    Any kind of white collar crime. Something like what Bernie Madoff did would be far beyond the ability of 99.9% of blacks.

    Nigerians are big time scammers but they (especially Ibo/Igbo) are much smarter than American blacks. They are the kind of people who SOLD the American blacks into the slave trade.

    What Bernie Madoff did wasn’t terribly sophisticated. It was a Ponzi scam. African Americans are capable of those. E.g., http://financialjuneteenth.com/former-nfl-star-allegedly-scammed-other-athletes-with-ponzi-scheme/

  133. @Xenophon Hendrix
    The release of wrongfully convicted prisoners regularly makes the news.

    Pursuit of criminal justice is a human endeavor. It will never be perfect. In a nation of 300 million, nearly any phenomenon can be made to look like an epidemic.

    I think my point was that it is an absolutely necessary component of a civil society, however if it lacks credibility to such an extent that you can’t trust it to execute people (N.B. procedural safeguards in a capital case are greater than in other criminal cases), can you trust it to deprive a man of his liberty for ten years? Twenty? Life?

    • Replies: @dc.sunsets
    As a human endeavor, wouldn't we prefer to see it structured to actually promote justice and punish official misconduct?

    Is not false imprisonment partial murder? Take away a man's best years of his life, falsely under color of law? Should this not be punished by positively medieval means?

    No. Instead we endure a system that legally immunizes the decision-makers.

    Power corrupts. Always.
  134. @Marcus
    Interesting considering that the large majority of immigrants came from southern Italy & Sicily, also the regions associated with the mob.

    Vito Genovese himself was from a village outside of Naples. I’d imagine that the Genovese name was indicative of a patrilineal ancestor immigrating to the Naples area from Genoa.

  135. @Steve Sailer
    Adam Driver was pretty good in the recent Noah Baumbach comedy "While We're Young," which was a better Woody Allen comedy than maybe 9 of the last 10 Woody Allen comedies.

    I always forget that Allen is still putting out a new movie every year.

  136. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @JsP
    you keep saying this but its not true.

    literally nobody saw the rape or killing and her lung was punctured in the initial stabbing so any screams stopped very quickly.

    I've lived in a city. What are you going to do in the middle of the night if you think you kind of heard something far away but can't see anything?


    and it was the middle of the night and windows were closed.

    I’ve lived in New York and other cities. New York is a lot more intense in terms of ambient noise than most other cities. It’s impossible to live there without actively ignoring most of the loud human and other noises around you. It’s sort of like when you first live there, you might give out change to the homeless panhandlers you see, but then after a while you just end up ignoring the panhandlers because there are so many of them, and you can’t constantly stop and hand out change.

    I suspect it wasn’t so much apathy in the sense that people knew something horrible was happening and deliberately chose to ignore it, but rather people getting used to ignoring the surrounding noise in a major city like New York.

    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    I lived in Manhattan for almost ten years. You basically have to ignore everything and everyone on the street. And, in terms of what's on the street, you don't be a hero.

    In this case what happened is that he attacked her at about 3 o'clock in the morning (it was a cold night, I think there was even snow). The attack was brief, because she fought him off the first time. There were screams and in fact people did call the police. But it didn't go on and on.

    Then he came back and got her in the lobby of her building. That's where she was raped and killed.

    The reaction was blown out of proportion. But, thing is, it made a lot of us more proactive in later years. I remember vividly breaking up a fight with a bare-chested guy trying to grab his GF, about ten years later, me and another guy, also in the middle of the night (I was up, so no big deal) and we both mentioned the Genovese episode while waiting for the police to arrive. And they got there quick, because apparently a lot of people called.
  137. @Anoni
    I've seen you refer to the rape wave post reconstruction but I haven't been able to find anything on it. Birth of A Nation can't count. Are there any real references?

    I’ve seen you refer to the rape wave post reconstruction but I haven’t been able to find anything on it. Birth of A Nation can’t count. Are there any real references?

    Here’s some discussion of it:
    http://zimriel.blogspot.com/2011/10/rape-and-reconstruction-i-found-another.html

  138. @DCThrowback
    That statement is logically consistent with the belief Sirhan Sirhan was "mind controlled" into being the patsy in the RFK assassination imo.

    He showed clear signs of having been under hypnotic influence. This was noted by the investigating doctor.

    Just recently they had a federal court was set to rule on the release of Sirhan, because a 78 year old witness, Rhodes-Hughes tells CNN the FBI’s eight-shot claim is “completely false.” She says the bureau “twisted” things she told two FBI agents when they interviewed her as an assassination witness in 1968, and she says Harris and her prosecutors are simply “parroting” the bureau’s report.”

    Manchurian Candidates are a demographic fairly active in the second half of the 20th century. In one interview, he kept saying repeatedly he had been looking for coffee, for coffee, for coffee, in a dreamy voice. But that notwithstanding, he was not the shooter. Certainly not the only. High level political assassinations are NEVER a lone nut. The lone nut is the chosen tale spun by the true perps because it shuts down all inquiry. Case closed. Move on. Nothing to see. Passports and murder notes will rain down from heaven in pristine condition, to prove plans of the lone nut.

    Even some mainstream media sources have all but admitted to the falsity Sirhan Sirhan as the shooter at all, much less the only shooter.

    “RFK must die”, by Shane Sullivan is pretty good.

    But he’ll never be released. Too many people are too invested in making sure he doesn’t suddenly “remember” more than he’s been saying. He lucked out in a way. At least nobody came up and shot him in stomach to spare the family the trouble of his trial.

    • Replies: @Paul Jolliffe
    M.C.,

    You're right that he'll never be released because too many people have too much to lose. I haven't seen any mainstream press articles that seriously question Sirhan's guilt, even though no less an expert than 91 year old Paul Schrade, victim/witness walking 6-8 feet behind RFK, has repeatedly, publicly and forcefully stated under oath that it was impossible for Schrade to have been hit by the same bullet that passed through RFK's coat at the shoulder.

    That the same "single bullet" hit both men is the infamous THEORY - never proven, never even demonstrated to be physically possible, let alone probable - upon which the LAPD's criminologist, DeWayne Wolfer, based his no conspiracy finding.

    Schrade has always said he couldn't have been hit by that shot - it had to be a different shot, and therefore a minimum of NINE bullets. NINE shots means two guns, and that means conspiracy, simple as that.

    Schrade is right. He always has been. He was there. He knew where he was when he was shot, where RFK was when RFK was shot, and where Sirhan was. No one has dared to contradict him. No one can.

    RFK was killed in a very sophisticated conspiracy involving the highest levels of our National Security State, deliberately covered up and obscured by every major institution in our country, including the national media, the courts, and Congress.

    I don't know why RFK was killed, and nor does anyone else. I do know that the murder was never honestly investigated by the authorities. Instead we got a giant PR exercise that continues to this day.
  139. @Jefferson
    Was Kitty related to the Genovese crime family? They could have whacked that Mulignan Winston Moseley.

    She wasn’t related to the Genovese crime family.

  140. @Anonymous
    I've lived in New York and other cities. New York is a lot more intense in terms of ambient noise than most other cities. It's impossible to live there without actively ignoring most of the loud human and other noises around you. It's sort of like when you first live there, you might give out change to the homeless panhandlers you see, but then after a while you just end up ignoring the panhandlers because there are so many of them, and you can't constantly stop and hand out change.

    I suspect it wasn't so much apathy in the sense that people knew something horrible was happening and deliberately chose to ignore it, but rather people getting used to ignoring the surrounding noise in a major city like New York.

    I lived in Manhattan for almost ten years. You basically have to ignore everything and everyone on the street. And, in terms of what’s on the street, you don’t be a hero.

    In this case what happened is that he attacked her at about 3 o’clock in the morning (it was a cold night, I think there was even snow). The attack was brief, because she fought him off the first time. There were screams and in fact people did call the police. But it didn’t go on and on.

    Then he came back and got her in the lobby of her building. That’s where she was raped and killed.

    The reaction was blown out of proportion. But, thing is, it made a lot of us more proactive in later years. I remember vividly breaking up a fight with a bare-chested guy trying to grab his GF, about ten years later, me and another guy, also in the middle of the night (I was up, so no big deal) and we both mentioned the Genovese episode while waiting for the police to arrive. And they got there quick, because apparently a lot of people called.

    • Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson
    That is impressive SPMoore8.

    If your sentiment, and your willingness to act, were the default posture of the majority of our fellow citizens, our nation would be not just a better place to live, but a much better place to live.
    , @SteveO

    I lived in Manhattan for almost ten years. You basically have to ignore everything and everyone on the street.
     
    It depends on the neighborhood. I have no idea what Ms Genovese's block was like, but the bock I lived on in Brooklyn was dead quiet at night - so quiet, even neighbors sitting on their stoop talking in normal voices were annoying late at night because the noise carried and there was nothing to drown it out.

    But, thing is, it made a lot of us more proactive in later years.
     
    Indeed. This is a situation where the lesson of the parable is more important than the reality of the story, which we now know is quite different. I'm sure I'm not the only person who has called 911 when something bad seemed to be happening, thinking - either consciously or subconsciously - "I don't want to be like Kitty Genovese's neighbors. They were horrible people." That's a good thing, even if there was also a racial aspect to the original twisting of the narrative.

    One other point: The lesson of the parable is not that people should rush to involve themselves personally in preventing crime, so whether you own a gun or are afraid to use the one you do own is not relevant. The lesson is that you must call the police if you think someone is in danger. I'm not criticizing those who do personally intervene, just pointing out that the Genovese story was not promoted as a spur to individual intervention but rather to calling the police. The ability to rely on the police in this way is one of hallmarks of an orderly society.

    In your other post, SPMoore8, you talk about the mores of a small town - personal intervention rather than calling the police. Having lived in New York, you know that it's very different in metropolitan areas - not just cities, but suburbs. Calling the police is the expected reaction to trouble, not personal intervention. The more urban and/or more affluent an area is, the more likely that is to be true.
  141. @Dr. X

    “For a victim outside, it’s a one-time or one-hour or one-minute affair, but for the person who’s caught, it’s forever.”

    The commissioner was clearly shocked, responding, “Well, that’s one way to look at it . . . Miss Genovese and Miss Johnson are no longer with us. . . . But you’re here . . . at least it’s debatable that you’re as bad off as Miss Genovese.”

    Later, after telling a commissioner he “never intended to kill Miss Genovese,” Moseley said, “What happened then would be called mugging. . . . People do kill people when they mug them sometimes.”

    In 1968 he escaped from a hospital in Buffalo, tied up a husband and wife and raped the woman in front of the husband. At one parole hearing, Moseley revealed he had written the victims a letter “to apologize . . . for the inconvenience I caused.

    A commissioner answered, “That’s a good way to say it. They were ‘inconvenienced.’”

    In a 1990 hearing, he said that during the rape, “No one was hurt.”

    A commissioner responded, “Someone was hurt. You don’t rape someone without them being injured.”

    “Physically injured,” Moseley corrected.
     

    It's worth noting, after one reads this, that New York State has 1) outlawed capital punishment, and 2) made it nearly impossible to carry or even own a handgun for self-defense. It can take over a year to obtain an New York license to merely OWN a handgun, the issuance of which is completely discretionary. Carrying it is another matter entirely. The license is revocable at any time for any reason.

    New York is also a "duty to retreat" state -- meaning that if you are attacked by someone, YOU must prove to the jury that you tried to run away from the criminal before you defended yourself.

    In other words, the narrative that crime is "society's fault" has real-world consequences -- the laws of New York essentially side with the criminal, and against the honest citizen.

    The Left would just absolutely love to impose these "New York values" on the rest of the nation.

    New York State has never outlawed capital punishment. A state appellate court declared it unconstitutional based on a rather narrow issue, and the proponents have so far been unable to muster up enough votes in the legislature to correct this minor issue.

    • Replies: @Dr. X
    Well, in 1965 the state outlawed all capital punishment except for murder of a police officer, so technically, yes, you're correct. For practical purposes, though, it was outlawed for 99.9% of the criminal homicides that actually occur.

    Capital punishment was renewed in 1995 for cases in which those of us without a badge were victimized, but the liberals in the state courts struck the statute down.
  142. @anonymous-antimarxist
    It is not like in the last 52 years of marxist lefties wringing their hands over whether or not the death penalty is cruel and unusual punishment there has not been a better method of executing the clearly deserving guilty with a method far simpler than the insanely stupid "lethal injection".

    Oh yes, it can be not only bloodless but has already been used tens if not hundreds of millions of times on large very thick skulled mammals. I am sure some silicon valley robotics genius could rig up a machine to eliminate the need for a human executioner in a weekend.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captive_bolt_pistol

    If the far lefties are still up tight about it, you could even pay some "Temple Grandin" to come up with some "more humane" method where the condemned would not know the precise moment of their execution. I believe the Russian and Chinese still mostly execute their condemned while they go about their daily tasks like traveling the prison hall ways or sitting on the toilet. China limits videoed public executions to those of multiple convicted major drug traffickers who get a quick rifle bullet to the back of the head.

    IIRC, if you look at recent capital punishment cases that have been challenged for being cruel and unusual, it is because either:

    1. activists have succeeded in blocking a state’s access to effective swift-and-painless lethal injection drugs, forcing them to switch to less effective drugs that may lead to the injectee writhing in burning pain, or
    2. the fact that the appeals process takes so long that convicts do not really know if or when they will be executed is taken to be a cruel and unusual level of uncertainty in itself.

    In either case, it is precisely the efforts to prevent cruel and unusual punishment that provide additional rhetorical ammunition for opponents of capital punishment to criticize the results of their efforts as still being cruel and unusual. It seems liberals would only accept either an outright ban on capital punishment or a policy of executing the convict the moment their sentence is announced.

  143. @SPMoore8
    I lived in Manhattan for almost ten years. You basically have to ignore everything and everyone on the street. And, in terms of what's on the street, you don't be a hero.

    In this case what happened is that he attacked her at about 3 o'clock in the morning (it was a cold night, I think there was even snow). The attack was brief, because she fought him off the first time. There were screams and in fact people did call the police. But it didn't go on and on.

    Then he came back and got her in the lobby of her building. That's where she was raped and killed.

    The reaction was blown out of proportion. But, thing is, it made a lot of us more proactive in later years. I remember vividly breaking up a fight with a bare-chested guy trying to grab his GF, about ten years later, me and another guy, also in the middle of the night (I was up, so no big deal) and we both mentioned the Genovese episode while waiting for the police to arrive. And they got there quick, because apparently a lot of people called.

    That is impressive SPMoore8.

    If your sentiment, and your willingness to act, were the default posture of the majority of our fellow citizens, our nation would be not just a better place to live, but a much better place to live.

    • Agree: SPMoore8
    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    Thank you; I know you were trying to say "safer" second time around. I was actually visiting my sister in Oakland when that incident took place, it was no big deal, I simply bolted from the house and started bellowing at the guy as I approached him, and he froze, and then the other guy showed up, the girl got into her car and locked the doors. Then the cops showed up.

    But I've been in these kind of situations from time to time in the decades since and I always follow up, not because I am so physically imposing but because I've been in the service and I definitely have the Voice of Command. And I'm also old now so I know how to read these situations.

    I live in a small town now, which was a factory town, and my neighbors look out for me, same as I do for them. To reflexively just call the cops is considered, I don't know, maybe even dishonorable. If a fight erupts on the street or on another guy's porch it's up to you to try to stabilize the situation before it gets out of hand, then if the police are necessary, you call them (actually, someone invariably does.) I could describe several such incidents. Best regards!
  144. @anonymous-antimarxist
    It is not like in the last 52 years of marxist lefties wringing their hands over whether or not the death penalty is cruel and unusual punishment there has not been a better method of executing the clearly deserving guilty with a method far simpler than the insanely stupid "lethal injection".

    Oh yes, it can be not only bloodless but has already been used tens if not hundreds of millions of times on large very thick skulled mammals. I am sure some silicon valley robotics genius could rig up a machine to eliminate the need for a human executioner in a weekend.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captive_bolt_pistol

    If the far lefties are still up tight about it, you could even pay some "Temple Grandin" to come up with some "more humane" method where the condemned would not know the precise moment of their execution. I believe the Russian and Chinese still mostly execute their condemned while they go about their daily tasks like traveling the prison hall ways or sitting on the toilet. China limits videoed public executions to those of multiple convicted major drug traffickers who get a quick rifle bullet to the back of the head.

    Also, re:

    If the far lefties are still up tight about it, you could even pay some “Temple Grandin” to come up with some “more humane” method where the condemned would not know the precise moment of their execution. I believe the Russian and Chinese still mostly execute their condemned while they go about their daily tasks like traveling the prison hall ways or sitting on the toilet.

    “He is back in the Ministry of Love, with everything forgiven, his soul white as snow. He was in the public dock, confessing everything, implicating everybody. He was walking down the white-tiled corridor, with the feeling of walking in sunlight, and an armed guard at his back. The long-hoped-for bullet was entering his brain.”

  145. @Charles Erwin Wilson
    That is impressive SPMoore8.

    If your sentiment, and your willingness to act, were the default posture of the majority of our fellow citizens, our nation would be not just a better place to live, but a much better place to live.

    Thank you; I know you were trying to say “safer” second time around. I was actually visiting my sister in Oakland when that incident took place, it was no big deal, I simply bolted from the house and started bellowing at the guy as I approached him, and he froze, and then the other guy showed up, the girl got into her car and locked the doors. Then the cops showed up.

    But I’ve been in these kind of situations from time to time in the decades since and I always follow up, not because I am so physically imposing but because I’ve been in the service and I definitely have the Voice of Command. And I’m also old now so I know how to read these situations.

    I live in a small town now, which was a factory town, and my neighbors look out for me, same as I do for them. To reflexively just call the cops is considered, I don’t know, maybe even dishonorable. If a fight erupts on the street or on another guy’s porch it’s up to you to try to stabilize the situation before it gets out of hand, then if the police are necessary, you call them (actually, someone invariably does.) I could describe several such incidents. Best regards!

  146. @SPMoore8
    I lived in Manhattan for almost ten years. You basically have to ignore everything and everyone on the street. And, in terms of what's on the street, you don't be a hero.

    In this case what happened is that he attacked her at about 3 o'clock in the morning (it was a cold night, I think there was even snow). The attack was brief, because she fought him off the first time. There were screams and in fact people did call the police. But it didn't go on and on.

    Then he came back and got her in the lobby of her building. That's where she was raped and killed.

    The reaction was blown out of proportion. But, thing is, it made a lot of us more proactive in later years. I remember vividly breaking up a fight with a bare-chested guy trying to grab his GF, about ten years later, me and another guy, also in the middle of the night (I was up, so no big deal) and we both mentioned the Genovese episode while waiting for the police to arrive. And they got there quick, because apparently a lot of people called.

    I lived in Manhattan for almost ten years. You basically have to ignore everything and everyone on the street.

    It depends on the neighborhood. I have no idea what Ms Genovese’s block was like, but the bock I lived on in Brooklyn was dead quiet at night – so quiet, even neighbors sitting on their stoop talking in normal voices were annoying late at night because the noise carried and there was nothing to drown it out.

    But, thing is, it made a lot of us more proactive in later years.

    Indeed. This is a situation where the lesson of the parable is more important than the reality of the story, which we now know is quite different. I’m sure I’m not the only person who has called 911 when something bad seemed to be happening, thinking – either consciously or subconsciously – “I don’t want to be like Kitty Genovese’s neighbors. They were horrible people.” That’s a good thing, even if there was also a racial aspect to the original twisting of the narrative.

    One other point: The lesson of the parable is not that people should rush to involve themselves personally in preventing crime, so whether you own a gun or are afraid to use the one you do own is not relevant. The lesson is that you must call the police if you think someone is in danger. I’m not criticizing those who do personally intervene, just pointing out that the Genovese story was not promoted as a spur to individual intervention but rather to calling the police. The ability to rely on the police in this way is one of hallmarks of an orderly society.

    In your other post, SPMoore8, you talk about the mores of a small town – personal intervention rather than calling the police. Having lived in New York, you know that it’s very different in metropolitan areas – not just cities, but suburbs. Calling the police is the expected reaction to trouble, not personal intervention. The more urban and/or more affluent an area is, the more likely that is to be true.

    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    You are right, people act differently in larger settings than they do in smaller ones. However, the only reason I told that story is not because some jerk was attempting to manhandle his GF back into the house (of course who would know that based on the woman's scream), but because I remember me and the other guy so casually referenced the Genovese situation.

    IIRC, the Genovese thing happened in the area of a railroad station (for commuters) surrounded mostly by 10-12 story apartment buildings. In that kind of situation you aren't going to have a lot of people even capable of dashing out into the street. But then again, in a small town you aren't likely to have some psycho wandering the streets late at night let alone armed.

    Absolutely if you hear someone scream or you hear a commotion outside your residence you should check it out, and it may be necessary to do something. Calling the police is one option but the reason small town people don't do that at first resort is because they don't want to cause resentments or get "the state" involved in everyone's business. For example, maybe it's a domestic dispute and not all that dangerous. You don't want to make enemies or have the cops cruising your street several times every night.

    Nevertheless, some kind of intervention in a street dispute -- even in NYC -- can be crucial because these confrontations basically build. A shout, or a distraction, can frequently defuse a situation; people usually stop dead in their tracks when they know people are watching. I'm not saying anyone should put themselves at risk; I'm saying that calling 911 (which is what I would normally do in a big town) is sometimes a punt; those few minutes can make a difference.

    Having said that I don't know how I would have reacted 52 years ago in Kew Gardens: a very cold night, 3 or 4 AM, shouts coming from a potentially dangerous public place -- I can see some people blowing it off as just a couple of drunks having a relationship spat in the middle of the night. But that would have been back then, not since. Like it or not, Kitty Genovese is the icon for "you are your brother's keeper" in modern urban environments.
  147. @SteveO

    I lived in Manhattan for almost ten years. You basically have to ignore everything and everyone on the street.
     
    It depends on the neighborhood. I have no idea what Ms Genovese's block was like, but the bock I lived on in Brooklyn was dead quiet at night - so quiet, even neighbors sitting on their stoop talking in normal voices were annoying late at night because the noise carried and there was nothing to drown it out.

    But, thing is, it made a lot of us more proactive in later years.
     
    Indeed. This is a situation where the lesson of the parable is more important than the reality of the story, which we now know is quite different. I'm sure I'm not the only person who has called 911 when something bad seemed to be happening, thinking - either consciously or subconsciously - "I don't want to be like Kitty Genovese's neighbors. They were horrible people." That's a good thing, even if there was also a racial aspect to the original twisting of the narrative.

    One other point: The lesson of the parable is not that people should rush to involve themselves personally in preventing crime, so whether you own a gun or are afraid to use the one you do own is not relevant. The lesson is that you must call the police if you think someone is in danger. I'm not criticizing those who do personally intervene, just pointing out that the Genovese story was not promoted as a spur to individual intervention but rather to calling the police. The ability to rely on the police in this way is one of hallmarks of an orderly society.

    In your other post, SPMoore8, you talk about the mores of a small town - personal intervention rather than calling the police. Having lived in New York, you know that it's very different in metropolitan areas - not just cities, but suburbs. Calling the police is the expected reaction to trouble, not personal intervention. The more urban and/or more affluent an area is, the more likely that is to be true.

    You are right, people act differently in larger settings than they do in smaller ones. However, the only reason I told that story is not because some jerk was attempting to manhandle his GF back into the house (of course who would know that based on the woman’s scream), but because I remember me and the other guy so casually referenced the Genovese situation.

    IIRC, the Genovese thing happened in the area of a railroad station (for commuters) surrounded mostly by 10-12 story apartment buildings. In that kind of situation you aren’t going to have a lot of people even capable of dashing out into the street. But then again, in a small town you aren’t likely to have some psycho wandering the streets late at night let alone armed.

    Absolutely if you hear someone scream or you hear a commotion outside your residence you should check it out, and it may be necessary to do something. Calling the police is one option but the reason small town people don’t do that at first resort is because they don’t want to cause resentments or get “the state” involved in everyone’s business. For example, maybe it’s a domestic dispute and not all that dangerous. You don’t want to make enemies or have the cops cruising your street several times every night.

    Nevertheless, some kind of intervention in a street dispute — even in NYC — can be crucial because these confrontations basically build. A shout, or a distraction, can frequently defuse a situation; people usually stop dead in their tracks when they know people are watching. I’m not saying anyone should put themselves at risk; I’m saying that calling 911 (which is what I would normally do in a big town) is sometimes a punt; those few minutes can make a difference.

    Having said that I don’t know how I would have reacted 52 years ago in Kew Gardens: a very cold night, 3 or 4 AM, shouts coming from a potentially dangerous public place — I can see some people blowing it off as just a couple of drunks having a relationship spat in the middle of the night. But that would have been back then, not since. Like it or not, Kitty Genovese is the icon for “you are your brother’s keeper” in modern urban environments.

  148. @Stephen R. Diamond
    Actually, the story was in all the social psych texts because there was a famous experiment done that was said to show we are not apathetic. Instead, when we know others are watching, we assume someone else will take action. The social psychological moral was that the presence of others, ironically, decreases the probability of intervention.

    Not sure how that fits your narrative.

    Exactly. Leave it to Mr. Sailer to go on the soapbox by insisting that the focus should have been on the race of the murderer, rather than the overall psychological implications on society when a person is clamoring for help.

    Would Mr. Sailer made it a point to blog about the death of the perpetrator had been “poor white trash” rather than “poor black trash”?

    • Replies: @David In TN
    Mr. Sailer's point was the murderer's race was something we weren't supposed to notice. And still aren't.

    Do you think Moseley was "poor black trash?" He owned his own home and had a steady job. On the surface, he appeared to be a respectable citizen.
    , @Bill
    Yes, we talk far too little in America about anecdote-driven pop psych mumbo jumbo and far too much about the epidemic of black men raping white women.
  149. @dc.sunsets
    I also forgot another possibility: He has a gun you didn't see and his aim/luck is excellent on the first shot such that your luck runs out.

    Anyone you can see has the potential to hit you with their gun. Getting involved is a deadly serious business with deadly serious consequences where every move you make in haste and ignorance will be examined in minute detail, seen in angles you can't possibly imagine, mostly looking to hang you.

    We are very fortunate; unless you are a Non Asian Minority living in a crime-infested ghetto, your odds of being a victim of violence are lower than almost any time in human history.

    That doesn't mean the odds are zero. As with fire, prudent people have fire extinguishers and know how and when to use them, along with knowing when to dial 9-1-1.

    “We are very fortunate; unless you are a Non Asian Minority living in a crime-infested ghetto, your odds of being a victim of violence are lower than almost any time in human history.”

    I object. This comment disrupts the overall narrative. Here, let me help you as you probably failed get the morning talking points memo– the odds that an American-Muslim committing jihad in white neighborhoods is actually quite high, thus we must deport every single one of them to their home country. It is the only way to keep white citizens safe.

  150. I personally could never stand by and watch a black man murder and rape a white woman. There would be two killings that day, if any.

    On the other hand, I wouldn’t get involved with black on black violence. A few years ago, my family and I shared a seaside condo in Myrtle Beach with my brother-in-law and his family, who’ve lived in South Carolina for many years. While we were outside preparing the grill for dinner, we heard yelling and screaming from black people in the condo next door. My brother-in-law was alarmed, but I thought it was just a bunch of blacks celebrating.

    It turns out he was right; two black kids (aged 10 or 12) ran outside sobbing and then held each other tightly, as if expecting something very bad to happen. It was heartbreaking, to be sure. But I obviously had misinterpreted black anger for black celebration…I couldn’t tell the difference. Sometimes I’ll hear black teenagers yelling and screaming as if a murder was taking place, but it turns out they’re just goofing around. Black emotion has a logic (or lack of) all it’s own, and white people getting in the middle of it is a recipe for disaster. That’s why I have so much empathy for white cops who have to deal with that crap.

  151. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    I think you got most of the points, though there was only really two guys who saw what was happening on the street (one did call the police, according to his son), and one other guy who witnessed what happened in the alley. This guy also called the cops, but in a strange and roundabout way which has never been fully reported or understood. It was his comment (“I didn’t want to get involved”) which was money quote, although the guy may have been more frightened of the cops than the killer outside. This is a key point you miss. The 38 witnesses originated, not in the fevered brain of A.M. Rosenthal, but from Michael Murphy, the chief of police at the time. When the cops caught Mosely, he confessed to three crimes. In one of them, the police had arrested a suspect who had confessed to the same crime. Rosenthal asked Murphy about the double confession and instead of answering, Murphy came up with the 38 witnesses/apathy story which Rosenthal ran with. Yes, apathy played to the sensibilities of liberal readers of the Times, but the main story was the apathy/alienation of NY citizens, not from each other, but from the police. Letters to the editor following the publication of the story underscored widespread distrust of the cops. This is what Murphy complained bitterly to Rosenthal about and the “reforms” or policy measures which came out of the Genovese affair all had to do with bettering these relations.

  152. @Corvinus
    Exactly. Leave it to Mr. Sailer to go on the soapbox by insisting that the focus should have been on the race of the murderer, rather than the overall psychological implications on society when a person is clamoring for help.

    Would Mr. Sailer made it a point to blog about the death of the perpetrator had been "poor white trash" rather than "poor black trash"?

    Mr. Sailer’s point was the murderer’s race was something we weren’t supposed to notice. And still aren’t.

    Do you think Moseley was “poor black trash?” He owned his own home and had a steady job. On the surface, he appeared to be a respectable citizen.

  153. @Corvinus
    Exactly. Leave it to Mr. Sailer to go on the soapbox by insisting that the focus should have been on the race of the murderer, rather than the overall psychological implications on society when a person is clamoring for help.

    Would Mr. Sailer made it a point to blog about the death of the perpetrator had been "poor white trash" rather than "poor black trash"?

    Yes, we talk far too little in America about anecdote-driven pop psych mumbo jumbo and far too much about the epidemic of black men raping white women.

  154. @dcite
    He showed clear signs of having been under hypnotic influence. This was noted by the investigating doctor.

    Just recently they had a federal court was set to rule on the release of Sirhan, because a 78 year old witness, Rhodes-Hughes tells CNN the FBI's eight-shot claim is "completely false." She says the bureau "twisted" things she told two FBI agents when they interviewed her as an assassination witness in 1968, and she says Harris and her prosecutors are simply "parroting" the bureau's report."

    Manchurian Candidates are a demographic fairly active in the second half of the 20th century. In one interview, he kept saying repeatedly he had been looking for coffee, for coffee, for coffee, in a dreamy voice. But that notwithstanding, he was not the shooter. Certainly not the only. High level political assassinations are NEVER a lone nut. The lone nut is the chosen tale spun by the true perps because it shuts down all inquiry. Case closed. Move on. Nothing to see. Passports and murder notes will rain down from heaven in pristine condition, to prove plans of the lone nut.

    ...

    Even some mainstream media sources have all but admitted to the falsity Sirhan Sirhan as the shooter at all, much less the only shooter.

    "RFK must die", by Shane Sullivan is pretty good.

    But he'll never be released. Too many people are too invested in making sure he doesn't suddenly "remember" more than he's been saying. He lucked out in a way. At least nobody came up and shot him in stomach to spare the family the trouble of his trial.

    M.C.,

    You’re right that he’ll never be released because too many people have too much to lose. I haven’t seen any mainstream press articles that seriously question Sirhan’s guilt, even though no less an expert than 91 year old Paul Schrade, victim/witness walking 6-8 feet behind RFK, has repeatedly, publicly and forcefully stated under oath that it was impossible for Schrade to have been hit by the same bullet that passed through RFK’s coat at the shoulder.

    That the same “single bullet” hit both men is the infamous THEORY – never proven, never even demonstrated to be physically possible, let alone probable – upon which the LAPD’s criminologist, DeWayne Wolfer, based his no conspiracy finding.

    Schrade has always said he couldn’t have been hit by that shot – it had to be a different shot, and therefore a minimum of NINE bullets. NINE shots means two guns, and that means conspiracy, simple as that.

    Schrade is right. He always has been. He was there. He knew where he was when he was shot, where RFK was when RFK was shot, and where Sirhan was. No one has dared to contradict him. No one can.

    RFK was killed in a very sophisticated conspiracy involving the highest levels of our National Security State, deliberately covered up and obscured by every major institution in our country, including the national media, the courts, and Congress.

    I don’t know why RFK was killed, and nor does anyone else. I do know that the murder was never honestly investigated by the authorities. Instead we got a giant PR exercise that continues to this day.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    "NINE shots means two guns, and that means conspiracy, simple as that."

    Or it could be that security started firing in response to Sirhan firing, and stuff happened.

  155. Corvinus, So glad you managed to get that rock off of you and return to commenting. I was a high senior, living in Buffalo, when Ms. Genovese was murdered by Moseley and I vaguely remember news stories about the apathetic response of her neighbors and that non-response is what the news was about. In 1967 I was a junior in college living,with my wife and son, not far from where Moseley attacked a couple and repeatedly raped the bound women in front of her husband, who was also bound. Moseley’s capture and perp walk were the first time I had seen a photo of him and that was published in the local papers. I think it is interesting that you don’t see a need to discuss Winston’s race, when race is such a large part of all crime stories today, but mostly those stories that have a black victim and a white perpetrator. Masters Golf Tournament starts tomorrow and I am going to enjoy that until BLM or some other group makes them drop the word Masters.

  156. @res

    A friend, a psychiatrist, who works in the criminal justice system (Hinckley was a patient of his at St. Elizabeth’s in DC), points out that blacks are overrepresented in violent crime and underrepresented in non-violent crime–it’s as simple as that.
     
    Well, except for not being true. See https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/tables/43tabledatadecoverviewpdf

    Blacks are less overrepresented in most nonviolent crimes (from a footnote: Property crimes are offenses of burglary, larceny-theft, motor vehicle theft, and arson) compared to violent crimes (Violent crimes are offenses of murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault.), but still overrepresented for the most part compared to their population proportion of ~13%.

    Steve has called out elsewhere some categories where blacks are truly underrepesented, but the FBI tables above are not that fine grained (except for some under 18 categories). Interesting to see that arrests for alcohol related offenses are close to parity.

    I see your point. Probably my infelicity in language use. If I understand your point, and the linked data (looking it over quickly), blacks would be most overrepresented in violent crime, less so overrepresented in non-violent crime. IIRC, his point was the proclivity to violence for blacks vis-à-vis whites.

    I’m not familiar with the FBI arrest data (which is not a complete picture of crime), my familiarity lies with (victim complaint of) crime report data collated by Bureau od Justice Statistics.

  157. @Alec Leamas
    Does he have data to back this up? In his line of work, he'd be called upon to evaluate the mental competency of criminal Defendants, but such evaluations would seem to be much more skewed towards violent crimes. It just doesn't seem like insanity or incompetency to stand trial are likely defenses to be mounted in response to a charge of embezzlement or fraud.

    True, his line of work is skewed towards violent crime–hence, he sees the proclivity to violence. The question of sanity vs insanity is actually quite rare compared to the frequency in news media or fictional TV.

  158. @Sean

    You hear some woman screaming and rush to help, your gun in hand. What are some of the possibilities?
     
    Here is one that happened : she is a streetwalker and they are plain clothes cops, When you arrive on the scene gun in hand demanding to know what is going on , without further ado they shoot and seriously wound you, then kill your dog.

    without further ado they shoot and seriously wound you, then kill your dog.

    Normal citizens (frequently even common crooks) are reluctant to open fire on cops.

    Cops, however, are now trained like (or recently mustered out of) the military: don’t hesitate, shoot immediately so you go home that night and if it wasn’t some mass murderer you killed, well…shit happens. Pass me another beer, will you?

    This is what “shoot house” training teaches. Hesitate to insure you’re doing the right thing can get you killed, so stop worrying about doing the wrong thing.

  159. @Anonymous
    Why were all those people afraid to help Kitty Genovese? Because New York State's unconstitutional Sullivan Law forbids them to be armed. Who wants to go outdoors at night when you might get killed by someone who knows he will get away with it? But a much bigger question is: why is THIS question never raised in The Narrative? If those 38 people had possessed firearms and been taught in schools how to use them, the taxpayers would not have had to support Moseley and endure his further crimes.

    But if you do that you’re an overzealous wannabe cop like Zimmerman if a black crook gets killed. That’s what bugged me most about Trayvon case; Zimmerman did give a crap, wasn’t going to ignore a suspicious person, and was willing to call the cops, and even his multiple 911 calls over a period of years was deemed somehow wrong. We’re trained now to ignore patterns, suspicious blacks, etc., in order to end RACISM.

  160. @Alec Leamas
    Pursuit of criminal justice is a human endeavor. It will never be perfect. In a nation of 300 million, nearly any phenomenon can be made to look like an epidemic.

    I think my point was that it is an absolutely necessary component of a civil society, however if it lacks credibility to such an extent that you can't trust it to execute people (N.B. procedural safeguards in a capital case are greater than in other criminal cases), can you trust it to deprive a man of his liberty for ten years? Twenty? Life?

    As a human endeavor, wouldn’t we prefer to see it structured to actually promote justice and punish official misconduct?

    Is not false imprisonment partial murder? Take away a man’s best years of his life, falsely under color of law? Should this not be punished by positively medieval means?

    No. Instead we endure a system that legally immunizes the decision-makers.

    Power corrupts. Always.

  161. @Dr. X

    “For a victim outside, it’s a one-time or one-hour or one-minute affair, but for the person who’s caught, it’s forever.”

    The commissioner was clearly shocked, responding, “Well, that’s one way to look at it . . . Miss Genovese and Miss Johnson are no longer with us. . . . But you’re here . . . at least it’s debatable that you’re as bad off as Miss Genovese.”

    Later, after telling a commissioner he “never intended to kill Miss Genovese,” Moseley said, “What happened then would be called mugging. . . . People do kill people when they mug them sometimes.”

    In 1968 he escaped from a hospital in Buffalo, tied up a husband and wife and raped the woman in front of the husband. At one parole hearing, Moseley revealed he had written the victims a letter “to apologize . . . for the inconvenience I caused.

    A commissioner answered, “That’s a good way to say it. They were ‘inconvenienced.’”

    In a 1990 hearing, he said that during the rape, “No one was hurt.”

    A commissioner responded, “Someone was hurt. You don’t rape someone without them being injured.”

    “Physically injured,” Moseley corrected.
     

    It's worth noting, after one reads this, that New York State has 1) outlawed capital punishment, and 2) made it nearly impossible to carry or even own a handgun for self-defense. It can take over a year to obtain an New York license to merely OWN a handgun, the issuance of which is completely discretionary. Carrying it is another matter entirely. The license is revocable at any time for any reason.

    New York is also a "duty to retreat" state -- meaning that if you are attacked by someone, YOU must prove to the jury that you tried to run away from the criminal before you defended yourself.

    In other words, the narrative that crime is "society's fault" has real-world consequences -- the laws of New York essentially side with the criminal, and against the honest citizen.

    The Left would just absolutely love to impose these "New York values" on the rest of the nation.

    In New York City (five boroughs, technically five counties of NYC) it is quite difficult to obtain a handgun permit. Less so in the rest of the state (the remaining 57 counties). New York State has two types of handgun permits (last I checked): CCW, and business premise. NYC has 5 types–only one being a CCW (unrestricted special carry). It is possible to get a business premise permit in NYC–with great difficulty. CCW, apparently, is only available for celebrities, as any disclosed list of holders would demonstrate (Trump, De Niro, Don Imus, Sean Hannity, Harvey Keitel). The easiest way to obtain an unrestricted special carry is to be retired NYPD.

  162. I can’t imagine why my thoughtful, informed and relevant comment was blocked, considering what gets through. Perhaps some lingering upset over some past comment? What’s the deal?

  163. @prosa123
    New York State has never outlawed capital punishment. A state appellate court declared it unconstitutional based on a rather narrow issue, and the proponents have so far been unable to muster up enough votes in the legislature to correct this minor issue.

    Well, in 1965 the state outlawed all capital punishment except for murder of a police officer, so technically, yes, you’re correct. For practical purposes, though, it was outlawed for 99.9% of the criminal homicides that actually occur.

    Capital punishment was renewed in 1995 for cases in which those of us without a badge were victimized, but the liberals in the state courts struck the statute down.

  164. @Harry Baldwin
    At his first parole hearing in 1984, Winston Moseley made a memorable statement, explaining that he was the real victim of the murder, not Genovese or Annie Mae Johnson, another woman he confessed to having stabbed to death. He was quoted in the New York Daily News:

    "For a victim outside, it's a one-time or one-hour or one-minute affair, but for the person who's caught, it's forever."

    The commissioner was clearly shocked, responding, "Well, that's one way to look at it . . . Miss Genovese and Miss Johnson are no longer with us. . . . But you're here . . . at least it's debatable that you're as bad off as Miss Genovese."

    Later, after telling a commissioner he "never intended to kill Miss Genovese," Moseley said, "What happened then would be called mugging. . . . People do kill people when they mug them sometimes."

    In 1968 he escaped from a hospital in Buffalo, tied up a husband and wife and raped the woman in front of the husband. At one parole hearing, Moseley revealed he had written the victims a letter "to apologize . . . for the inconvenience I caused.

    A commissioner answered, "That's a good way to say it. They were 'inconvenienced.'"

    In a 1990 hearing, he said that during the rape, "No one was hurt."

    A commissioner responded, "Someone was hurt. You don't rape someone without them being injured."

    "Physically injured," Moseley corrected.
     

    That's a real insight into the workings of the criminal mind.
    http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/news/kitty-killer-victim-notoriety-hurt-article-1.697583#ixzz2KObo4Wza

    CRIMINAL mind!?

    My dear Mr. Baldwin, this is evidence of the workings of a mind in anguish because of the terrible legacy of slavery, Jim Crow, Emmett Till, segregation, racism, The Klan, lynching, the existence of trees in Central Park, redlining, streets gone wrong, bad ZIP codes, more racism, guns erupting, lack of reparations, separate but equal education, white oppression, imperialism, patriarchism, heteronormativity, and the ridiculous necrophobic notion that it’s not OK to murder a woman so you can have sex with her dying body.

    The real victim isn’t the victim, it’s the aggressor who has no other way to signal he’s a victim but to project victimization.

    “For a victim outside, it’s a one-time or one-hour or one-minute affair, but for the person who’s caught, it’s forever.”

    That quote, in 1984, led me to reconsider my youthful opposition to capital punishment. When I opined as much to others in my graduate school department, the (((bolshies’))) replies were pretty much as I noted above, which probably read like satire or hyperbole.

  165. Steve, like you, I never saw a photo of Moseley till the age of the internet image search…and when I did, my first reaction was…well…hm….

    On that note, were you aware of the reports that in 1968, Moseley shoved a can of soup up his own downspout to get taken to the hospital to have it surgically removed?

    That was the hospital trip where he made his break, went on spree, and raped a couple more women. It’s still being reported in some outlets as him having gone to the hospital for “treatment of a minor self inflicted injury.” (More in a moment, on selective fastidiousness.)

    It was reported in 2004 and 2014 (40th and 50th anniversaries of her death) that Catherine Genovese was a lesbian sharing an apartment with her girlfriend. Of the several people who heard her screaming at street level, several reported they thought it was another street quarrel from the nearby bar (not the one she worked at) or a lovers’ fight, or something of that nature.

    One might ask whether the girlfriend Mary Ann Zielonko was home and heard the screams or not.

    My point with all this: the NYT, and Abe Rosenthal in particular, were very studied in their pattern of fastidiousness. It seems that at this era they thought that blackness, like homosexuality, was something to be covered up in service of The Narrative–in this case, as you say, that whites in America were apathetic and should be shamed and feel guilty.

    Later the Grey Lady came around to the more progressive and evolved notion that traits of race and queer and such were something by which to define all behavior and existence, and The Narrative itself.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    He looked like the singer/songwriter Pharrell, the "Happy" guy.
  166. @Olorin
    Steve, like you, I never saw a photo of Moseley till the age of the internet image search...and when I did, my first reaction was...well...hm....

    http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/03/12/article-2578482-1C365CCC00000578-987_634x392.jpg

    https://static01.nyt.com/images/2016/04/05/nyregion/04MoseleyObit/04MoseleyObit-articleLarge.jpg

    On that note, were you aware of the reports that in 1968, Moseley shoved a can of soup up his own downspout to get taken to the hospital to have it surgically removed?

    That was the hospital trip where he made his break, went on spree, and raped a couple more women. It's still being reported in some outlets as him having gone to the hospital for "treatment of a minor self inflicted injury." (More in a moment, on selective fastidiousness.)

    It was reported in 2004 and 2014 (40th and 50th anniversaries of her death) that Catherine Genovese was a lesbian sharing an apartment with her girlfriend. Of the several people who heard her screaming at street level, several reported they thought it was another street quarrel from the nearby bar (not the one she worked at) or a lovers' fight, or something of that nature.

    One might ask whether the girlfriend Mary Ann Zielonko was home and heard the screams or not.

    My point with all this: the NYT, and Abe Rosenthal in particular, were very studied in their pattern of fastidiousness. It seems that at this era they thought that blackness, like homosexuality, was something to be covered up in service of The Narrative--in this case, as you say, that whites in America were apathetic and should be shamed and feel guilty.

    Later the Grey Lady came around to the more progressive and evolved notion that traits of race and queer and such were something by which to define all behavior and existence, and The Narrative itself.

    He looked like the singer/songwriter Pharrell, the “Happy” guy.

  167. @Paul Jolliffe
    M.C.,

    You're right that he'll never be released because too many people have too much to lose. I haven't seen any mainstream press articles that seriously question Sirhan's guilt, even though no less an expert than 91 year old Paul Schrade, victim/witness walking 6-8 feet behind RFK, has repeatedly, publicly and forcefully stated under oath that it was impossible for Schrade to have been hit by the same bullet that passed through RFK's coat at the shoulder.

    That the same "single bullet" hit both men is the infamous THEORY - never proven, never even demonstrated to be physically possible, let alone probable - upon which the LAPD's criminologist, DeWayne Wolfer, based his no conspiracy finding.

    Schrade has always said he couldn't have been hit by that shot - it had to be a different shot, and therefore a minimum of NINE bullets. NINE shots means two guns, and that means conspiracy, simple as that.

    Schrade is right. He always has been. He was there. He knew where he was when he was shot, where RFK was when RFK was shot, and where Sirhan was. No one has dared to contradict him. No one can.

    RFK was killed in a very sophisticated conspiracy involving the highest levels of our National Security State, deliberately covered up and obscured by every major institution in our country, including the national media, the courts, and Congress.

    I don't know why RFK was killed, and nor does anyone else. I do know that the murder was never honestly investigated by the authorities. Instead we got a giant PR exercise that continues to this day.

    “NINE shots means two guns, and that means conspiracy, simple as that.”

    Or it could be that security started firing in response to Sirhan firing, and stuff happened.

    • Replies: @Paul Jolliffe
    Steve,

    Thane Cesar, the armed security guard walking immediately behind RFK, was seen to draw his handgun. One witness even claimed that they had seen him fire it three times with three hits on RFK. All the funny business about Cesar's personal .22 handgun (same caliber as Sirhan's) just added to the deep suspicions that the LAPD wanted no real investigation.

    The LAPD had official crime scene photos and reports that totaled 13 shots, including two in the door frame of the kitchen door behind RFK. Those photos are easily viewed online.

    Given the intense controversy surrounding the murder of JFK, I find your tacit assumption/admission that multiple shooters in the RFK murder MUST have been the result of incompetent security bumbling beneath you.

    You're smarter than that, I think.

    The overwhelming probability that RFK's murder was the result of a high-level conspiracy (not bumbling) is something you can't dismiss, and comments like "stuff happened" do nothing to help you or your readers to understand better the world and the country in which we live.

    If the excesses of the National Security State and its drive to preserve itself at any cost are something you are unwilling or unable to contemplate, at least have the decency and the intellectual honesty to declare that to your readers, and stop with the smarmy dismissals.
  168. @Steve Sailer
    "NINE shots means two guns, and that means conspiracy, simple as that."

    Or it could be that security started firing in response to Sirhan firing, and stuff happened.

    Steve,

    Thane Cesar, the armed security guard walking immediately behind RFK, was seen to draw his handgun. One witness even claimed that they had seen him fire it three times with three hits on RFK. All the funny business about Cesar’s personal .22 handgun (same caliber as Sirhan’s) just added to the deep suspicions that the LAPD wanted no real investigation.

    The LAPD had official crime scene photos and reports that totaled 13 shots, including two in the door frame of the kitchen door behind RFK. Those photos are easily viewed online.

    Given the intense controversy surrounding the murder of JFK, I find your tacit assumption/admission that multiple shooters in the RFK murder MUST have been the result of incompetent security bumbling beneath you.

    You’re smarter than that, I think.

    The overwhelming probability that RFK’s murder was the result of a high-level conspiracy (not bumbling) is something you can’t dismiss, and comments like “stuff happened” do nothing to help you or your readers to understand better the world and the country in which we live.

    If the excesses of the National Security State and its drive to preserve itself at any cost are something you are unwilling or unable to contemplate, at least have the decency and the intellectual honesty to declare that to your readers, and stop with the smarmy dismissals.

    • Replies: @David In TN
    RFK had little chance of capturing the nomination, performed below expectations in the California primary, and was headed for a defeat the next week in New York.

    Also, the Nixon campaign considered RFK easy to beat.
  169. @Paul Jolliffe
    Steve,

    Thane Cesar, the armed security guard walking immediately behind RFK, was seen to draw his handgun. One witness even claimed that they had seen him fire it three times with three hits on RFK. All the funny business about Cesar's personal .22 handgun (same caliber as Sirhan's) just added to the deep suspicions that the LAPD wanted no real investigation.

    The LAPD had official crime scene photos and reports that totaled 13 shots, including two in the door frame of the kitchen door behind RFK. Those photos are easily viewed online.

    Given the intense controversy surrounding the murder of JFK, I find your tacit assumption/admission that multiple shooters in the RFK murder MUST have been the result of incompetent security bumbling beneath you.

    You're smarter than that, I think.

    The overwhelming probability that RFK's murder was the result of a high-level conspiracy (not bumbling) is something you can't dismiss, and comments like "stuff happened" do nothing to help you or your readers to understand better the world and the country in which we live.

    If the excesses of the National Security State and its drive to preserve itself at any cost are something you are unwilling or unable to contemplate, at least have the decency and the intellectual honesty to declare that to your readers, and stop with the smarmy dismissals.

    RFK had little chance of capturing the nomination, performed below expectations in the California primary, and was headed for a defeat the next week in New York.

    Also, the Nixon campaign considered RFK easy to beat.

    • Replies: @Paul Jolliffe
    The beauty of playing the "what if" game is that you don't actually have to find out. We do know that with that murder, Nixon no longer had to find out for certain if he could beat RFK.
    RFK was the Democratic Party's frontrunner on June 4, 1968, and seemed very likely win the party's nomination later that summer. Whether RFK would have beaten RMN in the general election is unknowable, but the fact that RMN constantly obsessed about those "damn Kennedy's" and, as late as 1972, was devising extra-legal operations to fend off any possible challenge from Edward Kennedy (who was 1/100 the man his brothers were) meant that Nixon sure worried about losing again to the Kennedy's.

    Nixon would know.

    He lost to the Kennedy machine in 1960.

    Look it up, smart guy.

  170. @David In TN
    RFK had little chance of capturing the nomination, performed below expectations in the California primary, and was headed for a defeat the next week in New York.

    Also, the Nixon campaign considered RFK easy to beat.

    The beauty of playing the “what if” game is that you don’t actually have to find out. We do know that with that murder, Nixon no longer had to find out for certain if he could beat RFK.
    RFK was the Democratic Party’s frontrunner on June 4, 1968, and seemed very likely win the party’s nomination later that summer. Whether RFK would have beaten RMN in the general election is unknowable, but the fact that RMN constantly obsessed about those “damn Kennedy’s” and, as late as 1972, was devising extra-legal operations to fend off any possible challenge from Edward Kennedy (who was 1/100 the man his brothers were) meant that Nixon sure worried about losing again to the Kennedy’s.

    Nixon would know.

    He lost to the Kennedy machine in 1960.

    Look it up, smart guy.

    • Replies: @David In TN
    No, stupid, RFK wasn't the frontrunner. Humphrey was way ahead in delegates and had the party machinery behind him, which was all important in 1968. And Eugene McCarthy was going to stay in the race. He had performed better than expected in California and was going to beat Kennedy in the next contest in New York.
  171. @Paul Jolliffe
    The beauty of playing the "what if" game is that you don't actually have to find out. We do know that with that murder, Nixon no longer had to find out for certain if he could beat RFK.
    RFK was the Democratic Party's frontrunner on June 4, 1968, and seemed very likely win the party's nomination later that summer. Whether RFK would have beaten RMN in the general election is unknowable, but the fact that RMN constantly obsessed about those "damn Kennedy's" and, as late as 1972, was devising extra-legal operations to fend off any possible challenge from Edward Kennedy (who was 1/100 the man his brothers were) meant that Nixon sure worried about losing again to the Kennedy's.

    Nixon would know.

    He lost to the Kennedy machine in 1960.

    Look it up, smart guy.

    No, stupid, RFK wasn’t the frontrunner. Humphrey was way ahead in delegates and had the party machinery behind him, which was all important in 1968. And Eugene McCarthy was going to stay in the race. He had performed better than expected in California and was going to beat Kennedy in the next contest in New York.

  172. Again, as I wrote before, the game you’re playing is “what if?” You’re implying that RFK’s murder had no particular political significance (although you haven’t dared to write that explicitly) because on June 4, RFK trailed in total delegates to Humphrey at that moment. No one knows what would have happened in NY state. No one can say what would have happened at the convention in Chicago had RFK still been alive. We do know that RFK had jumped into the race and was making a very serious bid. We do know that with a dead RFK , the Democratic Party just about committed suicide on national TV when the machinery did choose Humphrey and his muddle-on-with-the-status-quo war policy. We do know that there were huge numbers of Democrats who hated the Humphrey nomination. If RFK was still alive, would the party machinery have still dared to pick Humphrey?

    Again, we’ll never know.

    A living RFK stood an excellent chance of being the anti-war Democratic Party nominee, but again, we’ll never know. Certainly you don’t. Your earlier comment that Nixon wasn’t afraid of the Kennedy’s was just wrong. Nixon had no deep confidence that he could beat RFK. He was even worried sick about a pathetic EMK in 1972!

    David, the larger point is important. Overwhelming evidence of multiple shooters in RFK’s murder cannot and should not be dismissed as merely security bumbling, which is precisely what Steve tried to do. I bet you and I agree that Steve should be above that sort of disingenuous comment. Steve has consistently refused to examine seriously the real evidence of conspiracy in the murders of the Kennedy brothers, and even more bothersome, the conspiracies to cover-up and to minimize the significance of those murders.

    David, Steve knows that the mainstream meme on the murders of the Kennedy brothers is that they had no more significance than if both men had died of heart attacks. Steve is now trying to make a living pointing out that obvious fallacies in mainstream narratives on a number of important issues. Yet on this issue, the murders of a president and a possible/probable presidential nominee, Steve refuses to look at the obvious!

    The mainstream media couldn’t be more wrong on this, and Steve seems to be OK with that!

    Don’t let him off the hook with comments minimizing the issue.

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