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Kevin Drum: "Are Democrats Now the Party of Open Borders?"
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From Mother Jones:

Are Democrats Now the Party of Open Borders?
Kevin Drum
July 12, 2019

… I have previously criticized Republicans who accused liberals of wanting “open borders.” President Trump tweets about this endlessly. But I have to admit that it’s hard to see much daylight between [Elizabeth] Warren’s plan and de facto open borders. As near as I can tell, CBP will be retasked away from patrolling the border looking for illegal crossings; if border officers happen to apprehend someone, they’ll be released almost immediately; if they bother to show up for their court date, they’ll have a lawyer appointed for them; and employers will have no particular reason to fear giving them a job.

Am I missing something here? Does Warren’s plan explicitly make it vanishingly unlikely that anyone crossing our border will ever be caught and sent back?

 
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  1. Open borders in a welfare state, what would that be like?

    • Replies: @MBlanc46
    We shall find out, in short order.
    , @Wilkey
    "Open borders in a welfare state, what would that be like?"

    Hmm. For starters our budget deficit would probably reach $700 billion even in the middle of an economic boom, and housing prices would probably be out of control in large parts of the country.

    But of course it's all ridiculous, racist fearmongering to suggest that might ever happen.
    , @guest
    You're living it.
    , @Massimo Heitor

    Open borders in a welfare state, what would that be like?

     

    People are usually less supporting of generous social benefits for "other" people. A sharp spike in ethnic/cultural/linguistic diversity and "otherness" will undermine solidarity, and undermine the willingness to support or tolerate generous government benefits. That's the big argument from many libertarians, and it's absolutely possible.

    Honestly, I can imagine a utopian future where it works out for the best with an ultra-diverse AnCap system where everything is driven by markets, no democracy, no majority rule, no state owned university system, work and trade. The big counter argument is that's a heck of a gamble. No one really knows how things will play out. And sure, who knows how anything will work out. Who knows how technology and automation and pollution and population growth will play out in the long run. In the long run, we are all dead. I still feel like open borders is more risk than gain for myself and my family. But, I recognize I have zero say in the issue, and will prepare for the future as best I can.
    , @Anon7
    Oh come on, nobody would support the idea of free health care for illegal immigrants!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMSmoNOZJ9Y
    , @eah
    It be like this:

    https://i.postimg.cc/QCwLvWsm/arbeitsmarkt-2019.png
    , @sailor1031
    Sweden.
    , @NOTA
    Open borders with no welfare could at least theoretically work out. With welfare for the limitless immigrants, I don’t see how it could be anything but a fiscal disaster.
    , @Ibound1
    Bankruptcy.
  2. Open borders are the need of the hour.
    Having been to many countries in Asia and Africa, I feel that a lot of immigration potential is present in those regions and they can significantly increase the size of the American economy. In order to counter China , we need to make sure that our population increases as well.
    Demographic change is inevitable. People like me who are of White European descent are going to become a minority,an absolute minority by late 2030s. We should not stop it, nor we should want it to stop.
    Europe has already started receiving it’s fair share of African migrants and we should embrace the fact that Europe will become a land of “Mixed Race and Migrant inhabitants”.
    Embracing all this won’t be that hard. I was born in 1956, all three of my children are married to a person of color and my beautiful, brown grandchildren are the perfect representative of the future of this country.
    I am a proud American and America doesn’t mean European Americans only. We have enough room for a billion people.

    • Disagree: Chrisnonymous
    • LOL: Kylie, BB753
    • Replies: @Jean Ralphio
    You’re so cute.
    , @guest
    "America doesn't mean European Americans only."

    Only? No, we can use Africans to pick cotton and Asians to do laundry.

    "I was born in 1956"

    Hmm. I wonder if anyone has noticed a connection between boomerism and shortsighted political opinions.

    , @Diversity Heretic
    And this grape-flavored Kool-Aid tastes sooooo good!
    , @Anonymous
    So you're saying you're part gay ?
    , @Hail
    Plug "open borders are the need of the hour" into the political-commentary bot and get:

    Open borders are the need of the hour.

    Immigration is a necessary issue. But it isn't the only one. A better model of immigration policy is to focus not on people or places but on those ideas that unite us and those who seek solutions that will reduce risk.

    We have to move from our national focus on immigration to focus not on nation but on values.

    If Trump wants to make America safe again, he'll start by getting out of the way.
     
    Remarkable for how fluffy this yet plausible that is. A cleaner, copy-edited version of the above could easily be published by an anti-MAGA conservative outlet.
    , @Charon
    A billion? Just a billion?

    Why stop there? Make no small plans, my son.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    We have enough room for a billion people.
     
    You must own a lot of property.

    Even if it were the Waggoner ranch, that'd still be 1.25 million per square mile. Not quite the Kowloon Walled City, but a long stride in that direction.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kowloon_Walled_City


    http://www.greggirard.com/content/gallery/Girard_kowloon015.jpg

    https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--lz7w7TMp--/c_scale,f_auto,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/18l4fx5thqlopjpg.jpg

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mq4jAwPdCMw

    , @Chrisnonymous
    Stockholm Syndrome
    , @Hail

    all three of my children are married to a person of color ...
     
    This comment could've been improved by adding four words, as follows:

    all three of my children are married to people of color who came here lee-ga-lee ...
     
    , @Justvisiting
    I miss the "save the environment" trolls.

    At least they tried to use "science".
    , @Cucksworth
    You realize Africans have very low IQ and cannot into civilization?
    , @PiltdownMan

    ...all three of my children are married to a person of color...
     
    What’s it like to have a Muslim son-in-law?
    , @Alden
    I think this comment is sarcasm. Or trying to stir things up.

    Some Americans move to Asia for various reasons like our friend Jeff. Some move to Africa although African expats tend to be European, Chinese and middle eastern not American

    But unless ooga booga was in the State department or lifer military I very much doubt he spent much time on both continents.
    , @BB753
    Your post sounds strangely like someone who posts an ad looking for an unregistered revolver and a single bullet. Suicide is not the answer! LOL!
    , @J.Ross
    Oh look, an off topic one-post from an unfamiliar name lacking literary references or plays on words (trying to be a conventional name, although this one is a bit unusual), trying to frame open borders madness in something lkke a "personal testimonial" television commercial. This happened yesterday under the name Laura. This is David Brock's shtick, "content creation," social media damage control, the pollution of the wired with hokey advertising nudge-language. As with really clumsy commercials whose catchphrases become jokes, it fails becaise it's so obvious. Neither "this guy" nor "Laura" (who may be the same person) read the post or responded to it, or brought up anything tangentially relevant. Imagine your breakfast interrupted by a diner patron standing up and reciting the script to a campaign spot. It wouldn't win votes, it would win stares.
    , @Hippopotamusdrome


    We have enough room for a billion people

     

    All we have to do is make a few more rivers to irrigate the crops to feed them.


    Where the River Runs Dry ... The Colorado and America’s water crisis.

    So much water is diverted from the river as it winds through the Southwest that, since the early nineteen-sixties, it has seldom flowed all the way to its natural outlet, ... and since the late nineteen-nineties it has made it there only once.

     



    The Great Plains’ Looming Water Crisis

    Depletion of a giant aquifer threatens vital U.S. farmland

     

    , @MEH 0910
    You forgot to write "refute me if you can".
  3. @trelane
    Open borders in a welfare state, what would that be like?

    We shall find out, in short order.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    We shall find out, in short order.
     
    I think you're a couple of grammatical tenses too far in the future.
  4. Every Democrat running to lose in 2020 at every ideological level and several beyond it has clearly embraced Open Borders in nearly every public appearance. There is no explicit “Open Borders” badge that would satisfy the people who pretend that this is not policy, but moving beyond politicians flat-out saying open borders is extremely common and clearly political (Mexican food items are declared “borderless,” song lyrics talk about no borders or tearing down the wall). This is not a handful of random poetic references, just about every major heavily promoted song for a while there slipped in the reference. During BLM the theme just happened to be rioting (see the video for Run This Town, but there were also soy-enriched crooning ballads that talked about setting a city on fire).
    If this guy has ever toed the party line that all that open borders talk isn’t really exactly what it sounds like, does he have a problem with David Irving’s quibble about whether Hitler ever specifically and formally ordered the Holocaust as such?

  5. Hail says: • Website

    Asterisks in the Warren Plan:

    – Any illegal with over 90% European and <5% Subsaharan ancestry will be deported. A preemptive anti-racism measure.

    – Any illegal w/ anti-Semitic intentions will be deported regardless of racial composition.

    A racial inspection committee and an anti-Semitism committee will be set up in each state to determine which illegals are up for immediate deportation. Any illegal cleared of both the above will be given a court date not less than 20 years after the case is opened.

    • Replies: @Charon
    You might think they'd care, but the fact is they intend to swamp any wrong-thinkers with sheer numbers. A billion or two will have that effect.
  6. @Danny Govardhan Nimboda Belgaum
    Open borders are the need of the hour.
    Having been to many countries in Asia and Africa, I feel that a lot of immigration potential is present in those regions and they can significantly increase the size of the American economy. In order to counter China , we need to make sure that our population increases as well.
    Demographic change is inevitable. People like me who are of White European descent are going to become a minority,an absolute minority by late 2030s. We should not stop it, nor we should want it to stop.
    Europe has already started receiving it's fair share of African migrants and we should embrace the fact that Europe will become a land of "Mixed Race and Migrant inhabitants".
    Embracing all this won't be that hard. I was born in 1956, all three of my children are married to a person of color and my beautiful, brown grandchildren are the perfect representative of the future of this country.
    I am a proud American and America doesn't mean European Americans only. We have enough room for a billion people.

    You’re so cute.

  7. @trelane
    Open borders in a welfare state, what would that be like?

    “Open borders in a welfare state, what would that be like?”

    Hmm. For starters our budget deficit would probably reach $700 billion even in the middle of an economic boom, and housing prices would probably be out of control in large parts of the country.

    But of course it’s all ridiculous, racist fearmongering to suggest that might ever happen.

  8. anon[398] • Disclaimer says:

    “In order to counter China , we need to make sure that our population increases as well.”

    Quality over quantity. The average black American is a net tax consumer. The future is high tech, not stone age labor. Besides, who is this “our”? I have no loyalty to empire. I want a country of my own.

    “Embracing all this won’t be that hard. I was born in 1956”

    Screw you guys, I got mine and now I’m outta here. Sucks that you missed the good old days, but I sure as heck didn’t.

  9. >Am I missing something here? Does Warren’s plan explicitly make it vanishingly unlikely that anyone crossing our border will ever be caught and sent back? <

    proggtarded explained

  10. Slavery of White men is the only way to pay for it.

    • Replies: @istevefan

    Slavery of White men is the only way to pay for it.
     
    How can you enslave 100 million White men who are the most the heavily armed group of civilians in the world?
  11. Now? They were always the party of open borders. They just couldn’t get away with it 20 years ago.

    • Replies: @Massimo Heitor

    Now? They were always the party of open borders. They just couldn’t get away with it 20 years ago.
     
    I don't think so. I've read Obama's autobiography and I genuinely don't think he supported open borders at all in 2008, and he changed as his party pressured him to change. Even, as late as 2014, Obama pushed for deportations to discourage future waves of migration. He backed down, but I don't think Obama drove the push to open borders. Similarly, with Angela Merkel. I don't think she rose to power with that ideology. She actively fought against immigration earlier in her career, and flipped when it was a political opportunity for her. I don't think that was some sinister plan, just Machiavellian politics.
    , @Daniel H
    Now? They were always the party of open borders. They just couldn’t get away with it 20 years ago.

    No. 50 years ago when the Democrats were comprised of white proles they looked out for the interest of the proles. But the Democrats started alienating white proles as far back as 1968. It's the Republicans and their uber Capital ideology who have always advocated open borders, and they still do. They are chortling with glee watching the Democrats twist themselves insane over this issue, but if they get power they will quietly and determinedly do what the Democrats are threatening. The Cucks are a greater danger.
    , @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    Now? They were always the party of open borders. They just couldn’t get away with it 20 years ago.
     
    The appropriate model to understand the Democrats' position on immigration is the history of the Democrats' position on gay marriage.

    Most of the party is at the "I believe marriage is a sacred bond between a man and a woman" with "God in the mix," while simultaneously frustrating any legislative action to prevent gay marriage stage with regard to open borders.

    They're biding their time with phony denials until the demographic tipping point has been achieved before being patent about what they want.
  12. A simple “yes” would have sufficed.

    • Agree: Charon
  13. @trelane
    Open borders in a welfare state, what would that be like?

    You’re living it.

  14. @trelane
    Open borders in a welfare state, what would that be like?

    Open borders in a welfare state, what would that be like?

    People are usually less supporting of generous social benefits for “other” people. A sharp spike in ethnic/cultural/linguistic diversity and “otherness” will undermine solidarity, and undermine the willingness to support or tolerate generous government benefits. That’s the big argument from many libertarians, and it’s absolutely possible.

    Honestly, I can imagine a utopian future where it works out for the best with an ultra-diverse AnCap system where everything is driven by markets, no democracy, no majority rule, no state owned university system, work and trade. The big counter argument is that’s a heck of a gamble. No one really knows how things will play out. And sure, who knows how anything will work out. Who knows how technology and automation and pollution and population growth will play out in the long run. In the long run, we are all dead. I still feel like open borders is more risk than gain for myself and my family. But, I recognize I have zero say in the issue, and will prepare for the future as best I can.

    • Replies: @bomag

    I recognize I have zero say in the issue
     
    I agree with that part, but it contradicts your earlier statements:

    People are usually less supporting of generous social benefits for “other” people. A sharp spike in ethnic/cultural/linguistic diversity and “otherness” will undermine solidarity, and undermine the willingness to support or tolerate generous government benefits.

    Everyone knows much of today's welfare state is fraud, but no one can seem to rein it in. Approval ratings for Congress is in single digits, but little seems to change with each election. It just looks like an emergent characteristic of today's world that it is welfare state uber alles to soak up all the production of the machine world.

    Libertarians keep preaching the glories of a natural free market, but they want central authorities to impose it.
  15. anon[398] • Disclaimer says:

    “They were always the party of open borders.”

    The left spent years minimizing the issue. Their goons on Comedy Central, fore example, (Jon Stewart, Trevor Noah) continually attacked conservatives for over dramatizing immigration issues, border caravans and the rest. Of course, those conservatives were completely correct. Either these leftists were ignorant empty suits deep in denial or they were disingenuous liars hoping to cover the democratic party’s rear. Take you pick.

    • Replies: @Prester John
    "Take you pick."

    I take the liberty of picking both, because that's how it usually falls. On the other hand, the issue is moot. Forget Trump, because both parties have effectively thrown in the towel on the issue of immigration. It will end badly of course because the Achilles Heel of uncontrolled, if not uncontrollable, immigration is the issue of long-term public health--and neither party wants to go "there." The measles outbreak (which is almost certainly related to mass immigration) is barely the tip of the iceberg. Stay tuned, because there is far, FAR more to come. And I shudder to think what it'll be.

  16. @Danny Govardhan Nimboda Belgaum
    Open borders are the need of the hour.
    Having been to many countries in Asia and Africa, I feel that a lot of immigration potential is present in those regions and they can significantly increase the size of the American economy. In order to counter China , we need to make sure that our population increases as well.
    Demographic change is inevitable. People like me who are of White European descent are going to become a minority,an absolute minority by late 2030s. We should not stop it, nor we should want it to stop.
    Europe has already started receiving it's fair share of African migrants and we should embrace the fact that Europe will become a land of "Mixed Race and Migrant inhabitants".
    Embracing all this won't be that hard. I was born in 1956, all three of my children are married to a person of color and my beautiful, brown grandchildren are the perfect representative of the future of this country.
    I am a proud American and America doesn't mean European Americans only. We have enough room for a billion people.

    “America doesn’t mean European Americans only.”

    Only? No, we can use Africans to pick cotton and Asians to do laundry.

    “I was born in 1956”

    Hmm. I wonder if anyone has noticed a connection between boomerism and shortsighted political opinions.

    • Replies: @Lurker
    I took DGNB's comment to be ironic .
  17. @Michael S
    Now? They were always the party of open borders. They just couldn't get away with it 20 years ago.

    Now? They were always the party of open borders. They just couldn’t get away with it 20 years ago.

    I don’t think so. I’ve read Obama’s autobiography and I genuinely don’t think he supported open borders at all in 2008, and he changed as his party pressured him to change. Even, as late as 2014, Obama pushed for deportations to discourage future waves of migration. He backed down, but I don’t think Obama drove the push to open borders. Similarly, with Angela Merkel. I don’t think she rose to power with that ideology. She actively fought against immigration earlier in her career, and flipped when it was a political opportunity for her. I don’t think that was some sinister plan, just Machiavellian politics.

    • Replies: @Kronos
    In terms of results, there is very little difference between de facto and de jure Open Borders. The borders been essentially open since the 1980s. Also “open borders” is heavily misleading, it’s a one-way migration policy. The Boomer cons wanted cheap labor while the Clinton Democrat’s wanted waves of immigration to wash out the black underclass in urban areas. The bill is just finally coming through.
  18. Anon[425] • Disclaimer says:

    This lefty think-tanker gave the most push back to Dum:

    Points:

    – They’re closed as long as they are not hremetically sealed.

    – EU countries have open borders [yeah, and so do U.S. states, which they resemble more than they resemble sovereign countries. He doesn’t mention Canada, Mexico, Australia, Japan]

    – Anything with the ultimate effect of changing racial or ethnic composition in the direction of white is racist; you can increase Mexicans, but not decrease them

    Also, strawmanning in the form of ignoring that open/closed borders refers to illegals. If you have a valid immigrant or nonimmigrant visa (including tourist), have valid refugee or asylee applicant status, or have an ESTA registration and passed through immigration, hey, welcome in (while your status is active)!

    • Replies: @Pericles
    Lol, that guy used to be a libertarian too. Marx on a Moped, Will!
    , @Art Deco
    It seems to me that Wilkinson and his wife Kerry Howley were once affiliated with the Reason Foundation or Cato. Libertarians are not your friends.
    , @Desiderius
    Last I heard of young master Wilkinson he was getting into it with the belated ClarkHat of Popehat fame.

    Anyone know where Clarkhat’s gotten off to these days?
  19. @Whiskey
    Slavery of White men is the only way to pay for it.

    Slavery of White men is the only way to pay for it.

    How can you enslave 100 million White men who are the most the heavily armed group of civilians in the world?

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    By turning their women and children against them while flooding them with hostile foreigners.

    It's off to an excellent start.
    , @Daniel H
    How can you enslave 100 million White men who are the most the heavily armed group of civilians in the world?

    Guilt. Paralyzing guilt.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    How can you enslave 100 million White men who are the most the heavily armed group of civilians in the world?
     
    "Adult entertainment".
    , @prime noticer
    "How can you enslave 100 million White men who are the most the heavily armed group of civilians in the world?"

    if they won't do anything in response, how will they not be slaves?

    i already have a term for them. mules. i've posted about it on here before. i've thought long and hard about this.

    if european men do not resist, they will become mules. a resource to allocate for the other groups. they will have zero interests of their own, and their productive output will be assigned to help the other groups grow and prosper.

    european men will be expected to do all the work, pay all the taxes, grow all the food, build all the infrastructure, solve all the problems, develop all the medicine, and fight all the wars. in exchange they will be verbally, physically, and legally harassed every day in a country where they are outnumbered and hated.

    they also will not be allowed to leave, or separate. how could they be allowed to do that? the other groups are parasites on them. they can't allow the host to leave.

    south africa is a GREAT place to start learning about if you want to know the future of the United States. because that's the likely future for european men in the United States. i don't see anybody resisting so far. internet rightists who hate Trump and post every day about how they can't wait for him to be out of office, have no idea what they are hoping and asking for. these keyboard warriors aren't going to do a single thing once the next democrat comes into office and starts the process of directly destroying them.

    and there won't be any countries to run away to either. USA is it. when it falls, the entire west goes.

    , @Whiskey
    Their plan as far as I can figure they have not thought this out much is:

    A. Military and cops flooded with non White leaders check.
    B. Allow Black and Central American gangs in both as they mistakenly think combat is low iq. See the youtube video on McNamara s morons in Vietnam in how that worked out.
    C. Nuke gun owners and Nebraska.
    D. Replace White leaders with Harold and Kumar. Check.
    E. Google and Amazon and Facebook fit every White dude with an electronic tracking device to force work on pain of no food since every thing will be paid in crypto currency controlled by them. The canceling of bank accounts by bad thinkers is a proof of concept.

    I do think with Trump removed that the military will obey and implement an anti White purge or kulak removal. Certainly the cops are 100% anti fa.

    No arrests of the anti fa nut pals. The one who shot up ICE.

    Non Whites third world elites like Saikat Chakrabarti are eager to get in on the action. The Chinese will back their play.

    Their plan has holes. Without White mechanics and pilots even drones will fail. Harold and Kumar no help there. Nuking Nebraska and West Virginia will be less effective than they think and invite reprisals. Gang members lack discipline and are as likely to loot and burn Malibu as Temecula and lack discipline for long brutal fighting. Much less marching.

    Without a willing White workforce much of the infrastructure goes away rapidly and permanently.

    I think they deny these plan failings in search of both utopia and all the stuff they can take from us not to mention power.
    , @Colin Wright
    'How can you enslave 100 million White men who are the most the heavily armed group of civilians in the world?'

    Geld them.
    , @Pericles
    The main problem is they have guns but lack balls. So it's like they don't have guns at all.
    , @Prof. Woland
    Progressive income tax.
    , @Thea
    If we can’t win hearts and minds, being heavily armed is irrelevant. White liberal women are sadly our Achilles heel.
    , @Alden
    Don’t bring a hunting rifle to a tank battle.
    , @ben tillman

    How can you enslave 100 million White men who are the most the heavily armed group of civilians in the world?
     
    By hijacking the societal nervous system.
    , @ben tillman

    How can you enslave 100 million White men who are the most the heavily armed group of civilians in the world?
     
    By inverting the societal immune system so that those who act to protect society are attacked as evil.
    , @BB753
    They're already enslaved. Guns don't guarantee freedom. Americans gave their freedom away during the Franklin Roosevelt's administrations.
  20. @istevefan

    Slavery of White men is the only way to pay for it.
     
    How can you enslave 100 million White men who are the most the heavily armed group of civilians in the world?

    By turning their women and children against them while flooding them with hostile foreigners.

    It’s off to an excellent start.

    • Replies: @Charon
    Not to mention: seize their weaponry.
    , @istevefan

    By turning their women and children against them while flooding them with hostile foreigners.
     
    Who is doing that? And why are the armed White men not resisting?
  21. @Danny Govardhan Nimboda Belgaum
    Open borders are the need of the hour.
    Having been to many countries in Asia and Africa, I feel that a lot of immigration potential is present in those regions and they can significantly increase the size of the American economy. In order to counter China , we need to make sure that our population increases as well.
    Demographic change is inevitable. People like me who are of White European descent are going to become a minority,an absolute minority by late 2030s. We should not stop it, nor we should want it to stop.
    Europe has already started receiving it's fair share of African migrants and we should embrace the fact that Europe will become a land of "Mixed Race and Migrant inhabitants".
    Embracing all this won't be that hard. I was born in 1956, all three of my children are married to a person of color and my beautiful, brown grandchildren are the perfect representative of the future of this country.
    I am a proud American and America doesn't mean European Americans only. We have enough room for a billion people.

    And this grape-flavored Kool-Aid tastes sooooo good!

  22. @Michael S
    Now? They were always the party of open borders. They just couldn't get away with it 20 years ago.

    Now? They were always the party of open borders. They just couldn’t get away with it 20 years ago.

    No. 50 years ago when the Democrats were comprised of white proles they looked out for the interest of the proles. But the Democrats started alienating white proles as far back as 1968. It’s the Republicans and their uber Capital ideology who have always advocated open borders, and they still do. They are chortling with glee watching the Democrats twist themselves insane over this issue, but if they get power they will quietly and determinedly do what the Democrats are threatening. The Cucks are a greater danger.

    • Agree: Paleo Liberal
    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    I am a few months younger than Steve.

    It is amazing how quickly things have changed in my lifetime.

    50 years ago, the Democratic Party was still the party of the working man, although that was starting to change. As amazingly corrupt as HHH was, he had very strong Union support. Well, considering how amazingly corrupt the unions were, maybe that wasn't surprising.

    Effectively, LBJ was the one who started the rift between working class whites and the better educated liberals. Part of it was his stand on civil rights; perhaps most of it was the Vietnam War. While working class people of all races were most likely to wind up in Vietnam, most of the protesters were middle to upper-class college students, often with long hair and a disheveled appearance. The blue collar workers didn't take kindly to the hippies and hippy wannabees protesting the war.

    Also, the drain on the economy of the combination of the Great Society and the Vietnam War was enormous. The stagnation and inflation of the 1970s was outrageous.

    In all, LBJ turned a massive Democratic majority into a party that couldn't win again until Clinton, except for Carter, who barely beat a weak Gerald Ford in the aftermath of Watergate.

    I am a well-educated liberal, with a Ph.D. in the hard sciences. But I greatly yearn for the days when there was a political party that cared about working people. I have been doing computer programming for about 20 years. During that time, wages have stagnated while housing costs have skyrocketed in those cities with a lot of programmers. A programmer could live very well 20 years ago. Now, not so much.

    What well-educated liberals forget is that when there is no party to look after working people, the college educated working people get screwed as well. It is rough to have had one job move overseas, and other job lost to an H1-B visa holder. It is tough to only be able to get contracting jobs, with the rates being what was market rate 20 years ago when prices were a lot cheaper.
    , @Charles Erwin Wilson 3

    They are chortling with glee watching the Democrats twist themselves insane over this issue, but if they get power they will quietly and determinedly do what the Democrats are threatening. The Cucks are a greater danger.
     
    We have one party, the Democrats, that are explicitly advocating open borders and free health care for illegal aliens. There is no significant pushback from the Democrat base, and all the Democrat enthusiasm, momentum and focus is on unlimited illegal immigration.

    The other party, the Republicans, have a base opposed to illegal immigration, some congressional members opposing illegal immigration, and a President actually taking measures to decrease immigration.

    And you think the greater threat is from the Republicans. Really?
    , @Mr. Anon

    It’s the Republicans and their uber Capital ideology who have always advocated open borders, and they still do.
     
    Not true. Eisenhower had no problem deporting illegals. And most of the serious opposition to amnesty of illegal aliens in the last 15 years has come from Republicans in the House. It is true there are many Republicans who are useless on the issue (especially in the Senate) and that their backers are all for immigration.
  23. @istevefan

    Slavery of White men is the only way to pay for it.
     
    How can you enslave 100 million White men who are the most the heavily armed group of civilians in the world?

    How can you enslave 100 million White men who are the most the heavily armed group of civilians in the world?

    Guilt. Paralyzing guilt.

  24. Anonymous[383] • Disclaimer says:
    @Danny Govardhan Nimboda Belgaum
    Open borders are the need of the hour.
    Having been to many countries in Asia and Africa, I feel that a lot of immigration potential is present in those regions and they can significantly increase the size of the American economy. In order to counter China , we need to make sure that our population increases as well.
    Demographic change is inevitable. People like me who are of White European descent are going to become a minority,an absolute minority by late 2030s. We should not stop it, nor we should want it to stop.
    Europe has already started receiving it's fair share of African migrants and we should embrace the fact that Europe will become a land of "Mixed Race and Migrant inhabitants".
    Embracing all this won't be that hard. I was born in 1956, all three of my children are married to a person of color and my beautiful, brown grandchildren are the perfect representative of the future of this country.
    I am a proud American and America doesn't mean European Americans only. We have enough room for a billion people.

    So you’re saying you’re part gay ?

  25. @MBlanc46
    We shall find out, in short order.

    We shall find out, in short order.

    I think you’re a couple of grammatical tenses too far in the future.

  26. @istevefan

    Slavery of White men is the only way to pay for it.
     
    How can you enslave 100 million White men who are the most the heavily armed group of civilians in the world?

    How can you enslave 100 million White men who are the most the heavily armed group of civilians in the world?

    “Adult entertainment”.

    • LOL: The Alarmist
    • Replies: @The Alarmist


    How can you enslave 100 million White men who are the most the heavily armed group of civilians in the world?
     
    “Adult entertainment”.
     
    The "adult entertainment" is the lure. Putting it all on credit cards is the trap.
  27. Hail says: • Website
    @Danny Govardhan Nimboda Belgaum
    Open borders are the need of the hour.
    Having been to many countries in Asia and Africa, I feel that a lot of immigration potential is present in those regions and they can significantly increase the size of the American economy. In order to counter China , we need to make sure that our population increases as well.
    Demographic change is inevitable. People like me who are of White European descent are going to become a minority,an absolute minority by late 2030s. We should not stop it, nor we should want it to stop.
    Europe has already started receiving it's fair share of African migrants and we should embrace the fact that Europe will become a land of "Mixed Race and Migrant inhabitants".
    Embracing all this won't be that hard. I was born in 1956, all three of my children are married to a person of color and my beautiful, brown grandchildren are the perfect representative of the future of this country.
    I am a proud American and America doesn't mean European Americans only. We have enough room for a billion people.

    Plug “open borders are the need of the hour” into the political-commentary bot and get:

    Open borders are the need of the hour.

    Immigration is a necessary issue. But it isn’t the only one. A better model of immigration policy is to focus not on people or places but on those ideas that unite us and those who seek solutions that will reduce risk.

    We have to move from our national focus on immigration to focus not on nation but on values.

    If Trump wants to make America safe again, he’ll start by getting out of the way.

    Remarkable for how fluffy this yet plausible that is. A cleaner, copy-edited version of the above could easily be published by an anti-MAGA conservative outlet.

    • Replies: @SFG
    Ha, I got an anti-Brexit article:

    Open borders are the need of the hour. We have seen some very bad decisions taken by the British government when dealing with immigrants. Their desire to close borders to bring in illegal immigrants was so blatant from the outset that many British people were left puzzled what the Prime Minister would do if he was caught doing something different. This was when the country really began to turn on itself.

    This attitude towards immigration was evident in the vote for Brexit in the United Kingdom as there was a feeling by the people that the United Kingdom's immigration policy was based on ignorance and that the immigrants were not willing to assimilate into our traditional British culture. Many of the British people had grown accustomed to accepting immigrants on a temporary basis after the end of World War II and even during the war that followed it was not uncommon to see people leaving the country and settling in France, Germany and other nations. The fact that these newcomers were bringing with them a sense of anxiety and resentment was evident and, as a result, they began to look to Britain for answers to these growing concerns. When David Cameron was asked what would happen if illegal immigrants were allowed to come into the country permanently, he responded that the United Kingdom could not welcome them, but he would be happy to allow them to work in the United Kingdom as "the economy grows and our society matures."
    , @Hypnotoad666
    Reads exactly like a Thomas Friedman column in the NYT.
  28. @istevefan

    Slavery of White men is the only way to pay for it.
     
    How can you enslave 100 million White men who are the most the heavily armed group of civilians in the world?

    “How can you enslave 100 million White men who are the most the heavily armed group of civilians in the world?”

    if they won’t do anything in response, how will they not be slaves?

    i already have a term for them. mules. i’ve posted about it on here before. i’ve thought long and hard about this.

    if european men do not resist, they will become mules. a resource to allocate for the other groups. they will have zero interests of their own, and their productive output will be assigned to help the other groups grow and prosper.

    european men will be expected to do all the work, pay all the taxes, grow all the food, build all the infrastructure, solve all the problems, develop all the medicine, and fight all the wars. in exchange they will be verbally, physically, and legally harassed every day in a country where they are outnumbered and hated.

    they also will not be allowed to leave, or separate. how could they be allowed to do that? the other groups are parasites on them. they can’t allow the host to leave.

    south africa is a GREAT place to start learning about if you want to know the future of the United States. because that’s the likely future for european men in the United States. i don’t see anybody resisting so far. internet rightists who hate Trump and post every day about how they can’t wait for him to be out of office, have no idea what they are hoping and asking for. these keyboard warriors aren’t going to do a single thing once the next democrat comes into office and starts the process of directly destroying them.

    and there won’t be any countries to run away to either. USA is it. when it falls, the entire west goes.

    • Agree: Counterinsurgency
    • Replies: @L Woods
    Yes, I do wonder how much longer it will be until white flight (both within and, especially, outside of the country) is rendered illegal. Already, you’re haunted by the long arm of imperial writ should you choose to expatriate.
  29. SFG says:
    @Hail
    Plug "open borders are the need of the hour" into the political-commentary bot and get:

    Open borders are the need of the hour.

    Immigration is a necessary issue. But it isn't the only one. A better model of immigration policy is to focus not on people or places but on those ideas that unite us and those who seek solutions that will reduce risk.

    We have to move from our national focus on immigration to focus not on nation but on values.

    If Trump wants to make America safe again, he'll start by getting out of the way.
     
    Remarkable for how fluffy this yet plausible that is. A cleaner, copy-edited version of the above could easily be published by an anti-MAGA conservative outlet.

    Ha, I got an anti-Brexit article:

    Open borders are the need of the hour. We have seen some very bad decisions taken by the British government when dealing with immigrants. Their desire to close borders to bring in illegal immigrants was so blatant from the outset that many British people were left puzzled what the Prime Minister would do if he was caught doing something different. This was when the country really began to turn on itself.

    This attitude towards immigration was evident in the vote for Brexit in the United Kingdom as there was a feeling by the people that the United Kingdom’s immigration policy was based on ignorance and that the immigrants were not willing to assimilate into our traditional British culture. Many of the British people had grown accustomed to accepting immigrants on a temporary basis after the end of World War II and even during the war that followed it was not uncommon to see people leaving the country and settling in France, Germany and other nations. The fact that these newcomers were bringing with them a sense of anxiety and resentment was evident and, as a result, they began to look to Britain for answers to these growing concerns. When David Cameron was asked what would happen if illegal immigrants were allowed to come into the country permanently, he responded that the United Kingdom could not welcome them, but he would be happy to allow them to work in the United Kingdom as “the economy grows and our society matures.”

  30. “Are Democrats Now the Party of Open Borders?”

    364 days from today we can test this out in Milwaukee. The party, led by someone named Solomonese from the Human Rights Campaign, will be holding their convention in something called, appropriately, the Fistserv Forum.

    Built in 1988, the Bradley Center was the oldest unrenovated arena in the NBA, so it had to go. The taxpayers got Fistserved, alright.

    We simply pull a Woodstock on them. Crash the party.

    How To Get Tickets To The Democratic National Convention In 2020

    • Replies: @Charon

    something called, appropriately, the Fistserv Forum
     
    NFW! Let the Memes commence!
    , @Paleo Liberal
    One of the reasons Scott Walker lost his re-election bid.

    Walker gave $250 million of state money to the Fiserv center. How did he pay for it? He took away $250 million from state funding for the University of Wisconsin.

    The Pottawatomie Tribe has a casino in Milwaukee. Another tribe wanted to open a casino nearby. The Pottawatomie Tribe was not happy, and asked Governor Walker to stop the new casino.

    The other tribe offered to give $250 million from the casino profits to the U of Wisconsin to make up for the lost revenue.

    At the time Walker made the decision:
    A. Walker was running for president.
    B. Walker was trying to money from Sheldon Aldelson
    C. Sheldon Aldelson runs casinos in Vegas, and doesn't appreciate the competition.

    As could be predicted, Walker denied the other tribe a casino.

    So,

    Winners:
    Aldelson
    Milwaukee Bucks
    Pottawatomie Tribe

    Losers:
    Wisconsin Taxpayers
    U of Wisconsin students, parents, faculty and staff
    The GOP after the next election (Note I did not include Walker as a loser. He is making far more money now. Politicians who toe the corporate line get rich after they leave office)
  31. I can’t be the only one who finds it very disturbing that Richard Spencer gave CNN a platform.Doesn’t he know what conspiracy theory nut cases they are?— 𝙻𝚎𝚎 𝚂𝚝𝚛𝚊𝚗𝚊𝚑𝚊𝚗 ⏳ (@stranahan) July 17, 2019

  32. @trelane
    Open borders in a welfare state, what would that be like?

    Oh come on, nobody would support the idea of free health care for illegal immigrants!

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    What do you think happens now ? You show up at a hospital, they treat you, assist in births, whatever. It's all farce.

    The goal is: Prevent entry and settlement in The United States. Rest is just conversation, chasing our tail
  33. @Danny Govardhan Nimboda Belgaum
    Open borders are the need of the hour.
    Having been to many countries in Asia and Africa, I feel that a lot of immigration potential is present in those regions and they can significantly increase the size of the American economy. In order to counter China , we need to make sure that our population increases as well.
    Demographic change is inevitable. People like me who are of White European descent are going to become a minority,an absolute minority by late 2030s. We should not stop it, nor we should want it to stop.
    Europe has already started receiving it's fair share of African migrants and we should embrace the fact that Europe will become a land of "Mixed Race and Migrant inhabitants".
    Embracing all this won't be that hard. I was born in 1956, all three of my children are married to a person of color and my beautiful, brown grandchildren are the perfect representative of the future of this country.
    I am a proud American and America doesn't mean European Americans only. We have enough room for a billion people.

    A billion? Just a billion?

    Why stop there? Make no small plans, my son.

  34. @Hail
    Asterisks in the Warren Plan:

    - Any illegal with over 90% European and <5% Subsaharan ancestry will be deported. A preemptive anti-racism measure.

    - Any illegal w/ anti-Semitic intentions will be deported regardless of racial composition.

    A racial inspection committee and an anti-Semitism committee will be set up in each state to determine which illegals are up for immediate deportation. Any illegal cleared of both the above will be given a court date not less than 20 years after the case is opened.

    You might think they’d care, but the fact is they intend to swamp any wrong-thinkers with sheer numbers. A billion or two will have that effect.

  35. @Almost Missouri
    By turning their women and children against them while flooding them with hostile foreigners.

    It's off to an excellent start.

    Not to mention: seize their weaponry.

  36. @Reg Cæsar

    "Are Democrats Now the Party of Open Borders?"
     


    364 days from today we can test this out in Milwaukee. The party, led by someone named Solomonese from the Human Rights Campaign, will be holding their convention in something called, appropriately, the Fistserv Forum.


    https://newscdn.weigelbroadcasting.com/xQLj9-1540395962-121695-blog-BucksArena.jpg


    Built in 1988, the Bradley Center was the oldest unrenovated arena in the NBA, so it had to go. The taxpayers got Fistserved, alright.


    We simply pull a Woodstock on them. Crash the party.


    How To Get Tickets To The Democratic National Convention In 2020


    https://news.images.itv.com/image/file/505354/stream_img.jpg

    something called, appropriately, the Fistserv Forum

    NFW! Let the Memes commence!

  37. @istevefan

    Slavery of White men is the only way to pay for it.
     
    How can you enslave 100 million White men who are the most the heavily armed group of civilians in the world?

    Their plan as far as I can figure they have not thought this out much is:

    A. Military and cops flooded with non White leaders check.
    B. Allow Black and Central American gangs in both as they mistakenly think combat is low iq. See the youtube video on McNamara s morons in Vietnam in how that worked out.
    C. Nuke gun owners and Nebraska.
    D. Replace White leaders with Harold and Kumar. Check.
    E. Google and Amazon and Facebook fit every White dude with an electronic tracking device to force work on pain of no food since every thing will be paid in crypto currency controlled by them. The canceling of bank accounts by bad thinkers is a proof of concept.

    I do think with Trump removed that the military will obey and implement an anti White purge or kulak removal. Certainly the cops are 100% anti fa.

    No arrests of the anti fa nut pals. The one who shot up ICE.

    Non Whites third world elites like Saikat Chakrabarti are eager to get in on the action. The Chinese will back their play.

    Their plan has holes. Without White mechanics and pilots even drones will fail. Harold and Kumar no help there. Nuking Nebraska and West Virginia will be less effective than they think and invite reprisals. Gang members lack discipline and are as likely to loot and burn Malibu as Temecula and lack discipline for long brutal fighting. Much less marching.

    Without a willing White workforce much of the infrastructure goes away rapidly and permanently.

    I think they deny these plan failings in search of both utopia and all the stuff they can take from us not to mention power.

    • Agree: Alden
    • Replies: @Alden
    They’ll have to move Strategic Air Command and other bases out of Nebraska first. West Virginia is a wholly owned subsidiary of Rockefeller industries. Reason it’s the poorest state is low Rockefeller wages. Reason it has such poor infrastructure is that the Rockefeller businesses don’t pay taxes. Rockefeller industries won’t let the liberals destroy their low paid work force and industries

    Liberals don’t want to enslave White men. Liberals wantWhite men dead because they know even enslaved White men will rebel.

    , @Neil Templeton
    I suspect War is generally preceded by optimistic forecasts of probable outcomes, followed by sharply negative return on actuals.
    , @J.Ross
    The one that shot up an ICE station, like the one that shot congressmen and various others, couldn't be arrested because he became a shahiyd. However your point stands. Antifa does not fear arrest in cities where the mayor and police chief are supporting them on twitter, and when they are arrested they are not given worse than probation.
    , @Justvisiting
    The next generation of whites will learn the old Soviet maxim:

    "So long as the bosses pretend to pay us, we will pretend to work".
  38. @Almost Missouri
    By turning their women and children against them while flooding them with hostile foreigners.

    It's off to an excellent start.

    By turning their women and children against them while flooding them with hostile foreigners.

    Who is doing that? And why are the armed White men not resisting?

    • Replies: @Jack Hanson
    Only Extremely Online People ( see also: Steve's son Whiskey) assume that because one isn't using iSteve as a social media platform they aren't doing anything.
    , @Almost Missouri

    "Who is doing that?"
     
    Good question.

    "And why are the armed White men not resisting?"
     
    A few have. It didn't work out so well.
    , @J.Ross
    The who is largely mass media, academia, and The Foundations. There's something in common there and it isn't reverence for the prophet Muhammad.
  39. @trelane
    Open borders in a welfare state, what would that be like?

    It be like this:

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    Interesting chart.

    As I understand it, the columns at the bottom are the pseudo-"asylum-seekers" that Merkel foolishly took in. At the chart's scaling, they don't appear to be so significant.

    The next line above the columns is the unemployed. That's probably the native unemployed only. Why that number should jump and stay up ever since the arrival of the invaders is not clear. Maybe a few of the invaders displaced native workers.

    The top, steep line, which sets the scale for the entire chart, is something like "those entitled to benefits". As you can see, those little monthly columns at the bottom of the chart really add up to a cumulative and permanent increase of about 600% here.

    So Germany provides a near laboratory-like case study for "what would open borders in a welfare state be like?" Answer: increased(!) unemployment for native workers, and a massive increase in useless eaters sucking at the national welfare teat.
    , @jim jones
    Maybe someone who understands German could post an English translation of the chart
  40. @istevefan

    By turning their women and children against them while flooding them with hostile foreigners.
     
    Who is doing that? And why are the armed White men not resisting?

    Only Extremely Online People ( see also: Steve’s son Whiskey) assume that because one isn’t using iSteve as a social media platform they aren’t doing anything.

    • Agree: Diversity is Great!
  41. Are Democrats Now the Party of Open Borders?

    Both parties support open borders.

    People seem think that open borders has to mean a fully open border like a water faucet that is fully open. But not having any plans to reduce or eliminate a yearly intake of 1 to 2 million, year after year, is akin to having a faucet partially open with no plans to ever turn it off. It might take longer to flood the space with water, but if the partially closed faucet is never to be turned off, you essentially have a fully open one.

    Likewise, if the number of immigrants we have been taking for the past half century continues at its current clip, then effectively we have open borders. It might take longer to demographically transform the nation with a limit of 1 to 2 million people per year. But as the past half century has shown, it will happen.

    And since both parties have no plans or intentions on reducing this yearly intake, both parties essentially support open borders.

    • Replies: @Peter Akuleyev
    This is pretty much right. The Democrats are not as extreme in real life as they play on TV and the Republicans are not as strict. It is all theater trying to grab the marginal vote here and there, but the general consensus has not really changed, despite Trump. The elite still wants immigration.

    There was an interesting article in a Polish newspaper today about serfdom, and how prior to the 1830s, the Polish aristocracy didn't really see peasants as human beings at all. They were basically another form of livestock, but harder to manage. It was only when outside powers started destroying the Polish aristocracy that the Szlachty realized that they and the peasants were actually part of one nation, and needed to work together. I see a lot of parallels in that to the current US situation. Our business elites, including Trump, also don't really care about their workers as human beings, and they are all interchangeable. All things being equal, it is better for the bottom line to hire a docile Latino or an Indian you can threaten by pulling his visa. And better to keep the American worker stupid and uninformed. Unfortunately the Polish elite learned their lesson only after it was too late to save Poland. It took some luck and a destructive war between foreign elites to create a window for Poland to re-emerge. The US may not be as lucky.
    , @ben tillman
    Right. It's unlimited or infinite immigration, which has the same effect as "open borders".
  42. Why the heck doesn’t Mexico just apply to become the 51st state of the US? They’re so keen on becoming American that we’re going to get all their people at this rate.

  43. “Are we the bad guys?’

  44. It makes little difference to CA taxpayers whether Latinx, tax leeches cross an open border in San Ysidro, or Whitex tax leeches cross an open border in Stateline.

    The problem with closed borders is that, sooner or later, the Government will use them in order to prevent our tax leeches from leaving.

  45. anon[295] • Disclaimer says:

    “How can you enslave 100 million White men who are the most the heavily armed group of civilians in the world?”

    Easy. They pay taxes, don’t they? Tax them more. The system is already in place. They have jobs, right? Well, lock them out of influential jobs through Ivy League gatekeeping and Affirmative Action and then force them to occupy jobs that service “The Other”. Example: maybe 97% of airforce fighter pilots are white males. Who do you think dies first in a war with Russia and whom does that primarily benefit? They’re already slaves, if you think about it. A lot of them even seem to like it.

    “Who is doing that?”

    The ruling class and their wannabe aspirants.

    “And why are the armed White men not resisting?”

    They have no organization and no realistic plan of action. The also disproportionately inhabit large swaths of lower density lands which makes organization difficult. They’ve also been shut out of most of the large information distribution centers located in democrat strongholds – NY, DC, and LA. The first step in a successful resistance would be to hold some area that they can exclude the enemy from, then work outwards. That means a red state secession. But how many conservatives do you hear talking about that? Honestly, the fate of South Africa’s whites is probably the fate that awaits America’s whites. At least some of you will get the satisfaction of watching the based and redpilled Chinese crush this empire over the next several decades in return. I don’t plan to lift a single finger to help this country when it happens, and they deserve that.

  46. anon[124] • Disclaimer says:

    “Guilt. Paralyzing guilt.”

    Hate > guilt. This is why regional factionalism/independence movement is so attractive. It allows for the kind of passionate emotionalism that can overcome much of the white guilt foisted upon the citizenry by the media. Trump has demonstrated a tiny bit of that in relentlessly attacking the media, thereby enraging his base and defanging their ability to set the narrative for that demographic. Say there were a red state out there called Genosa. Siding with Genosa against the larger entity in an independence movement would provide for a similar effect. Your guilt would melt away as impassioned men deride their opponent as immoral, unfair, and all the like (equivalent to the fake news charge). Make this a moral, emotional issue and you’ll have a chance. You’re not going to reason with the left. They aren’t motivated by facts but by moralism and schadenfreude.

  47. @Danny Govardhan Nimboda Belgaum
    Open borders are the need of the hour.
    Having been to many countries in Asia and Africa, I feel that a lot of immigration potential is present in those regions and they can significantly increase the size of the American economy. In order to counter China , we need to make sure that our population increases as well.
    Demographic change is inevitable. People like me who are of White European descent are going to become a minority,an absolute minority by late 2030s. We should not stop it, nor we should want it to stop.
    Europe has already started receiving it's fair share of African migrants and we should embrace the fact that Europe will become a land of "Mixed Race and Migrant inhabitants".
    Embracing all this won't be that hard. I was born in 1956, all three of my children are married to a person of color and my beautiful, brown grandchildren are the perfect representative of the future of this country.
    I am a proud American and America doesn't mean European Americans only. We have enough room for a billion people.

    We have enough room for a billion people.

    You must own a lot of property.

    Even if it were the Waggoner ranch, that’d still be 1.25 million per square mile. Not quite the Kowloon Walled City, but a long stride in that direction.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kowloon_Walled_City

    • Replies: @Pericles
    I'm sort of kicking myself that I visited Hong Kong while the Kowloon Walled City was still around and didn't go have a look. We even stayed in Kowloon now that I think about it. Man.
    , @ChrisZ
    Reg, I get a feeling of uneasiness just looking at those images. Reminds me of a hi-rise version of Catal Huyuk: the settlement in southern Anatolia that flourished 9,000 years ago.
    , @ic1000
    Poster #2 asserted,

    > We [sic] have enough room for a billion people.

    He's answered the question that every politician of every stripe should be asked, relentlessly. The Most Important Question.

    The US population jumped 122 million in 50 years and now stands at 330 million. Considering how mass immigration depresses wages, inflates housing costs, worsens the environment, crowds roads and classrooms, stresses health care, increases inequality, weakens Social Security, imports anti-democratic customs, promotes global warming, erodes workplace safety, and robs talent from donor countries -- What should the US population be, 50 years from now?

    Respond with a number, not with pretty words.

    The other Most Important Question: Who makes this policy decision: Davos billionaires, international agency bureaucrats, or American voters?
  48. @Massimo Heitor

    Now? They were always the party of open borders. They just couldn’t get away with it 20 years ago.
     
    I don't think so. I've read Obama's autobiography and I genuinely don't think he supported open borders at all in 2008, and he changed as his party pressured him to change. Even, as late as 2014, Obama pushed for deportations to discourage future waves of migration. He backed down, but I don't think Obama drove the push to open borders. Similarly, with Angela Merkel. I don't think she rose to power with that ideology. She actively fought against immigration earlier in her career, and flipped when it was a political opportunity for her. I don't think that was some sinister plan, just Machiavellian politics.

    In terms of results, there is very little difference between de facto and de jure Open Borders. The borders been essentially open since the 1980s. Also “open borders” is heavily misleading, it’s a one-way migration policy. The Boomer cons wanted cheap labor while the Clinton Democrat’s wanted waves of immigration to wash out the black underclass in urban areas. The bill is just finally coming through.

  49. OFF TOPIC

    from Harvard Business Review
    hbr.org
    Does Diversity Training Work the Way It’s Supposed To?

    Edward H. Chang, Katherine L. Milkman, Laura J. Zarrow, Kasandra Brabaw, Dena M. Gromet, Reb Rebele, Cade Massey, Angela L. Duckworth, Adam Grant

    JULY 09, 2019

    Virtually all Fortune 500 companies offer diversity training to their employees. Yet surprisingly few of them have measured its impact. That’s unfortunate, considering evidence has shown that diversity training can backfire, eliciting defensiveness from the very people who might benefit most. And even when the training is beneficial, the effects may not last after the program ends.

    This made us curious: What would happen if we created a training program and rigorously tested its effects? If we used the most relevant scientific findings on behavior change to design an intervention for increasing diversity and inclusion in the workplace, could we change employee attitudes? Could we prompt more inclusive behavior? If so, would those changes stick?

    What did we find? Let’s start with the good news. The bias-focused trainings had a positive effect on the attitudes of one important group: employees who we believe were the least supportive of women prior to training. We found that after completing training, these employees were more likely to acknowledge discrimination against women, express support for policies designed to help women, and acknowledge their own racial and gender biases, compared to similar employees in the control group.

    But did the training change behavior?

    This brings us to the bad news. We found very little evidence that diversity training affected the behavior of men or white employees overall—the two groups who typically hold the most power in organizations and are often the primary targets of these interventions.

    Our data contained two interesting surprises, however. The first was that the single largest behavioral effect generated by the training was on the behavior of women in the company’s U.S. offices.

    Three weeks after the training was complete, we asked the organization to email employees about a new initiative. The email asked employees to nominate up to five coworkers they would like to meet for a casual coffee chat to help create a more inclusive culture. Our goal was to measure whether employees would be more willing to provide informal mentorship to women and people of color after undergoing the diversity training.

    We hope that organizations will bring their own curiosity and creativity to bear on the new questions that emerged from our study. There’s plenty left to learn about how to create a diverse and inclusive workplace.

    🙂

    • Replies: @Hypnotoad666

    That’s unfortunate, considering evidence has shown that diversity training can backfire, eliciting defensiveness
     
    The more people know about "diversity," the less they like it. That's just science.
  50. Didn’t he support the Iraq War? Seems he wanted to get (Very progressively, min!) Lincolnesque on the Iraqis too.

    Isn’t that a funny pattern for ‘progressives’ who come out with white-hot hatred of white people…

  51. @istevefan

    Slavery of White men is the only way to pay for it.
     
    How can you enslave 100 million White men who are the most the heavily armed group of civilians in the world?

    ‘How can you enslave 100 million White men who are the most the heavily armed group of civilians in the world?’

    Geld them.

  52. Aha – Kevin Drum in Mother Jones. Is it that they get “that soemthing’s happening here”, of which they – for a long time – did not “know what it is”?

    • Replies: @Cloudbuster
    What it is ain't exactly clear...

    https://youtu.be/xa8T4uavjgI
  53. Borders? We ain’t got no borders. We don’t need no borders! I don’t have to show you no stinking borders!

    We don’t need no stinking borders!

  54. Just having good time….

    https://edition.cnn.com/2019/07/17/politics/donald-trump-racism-democrats-2020-election/index.html

    Trump may have finally broken Washington

    • Replies: @Old Prude
    "Race Tweets"
  55. @Reg Cæsar

    How can you enslave 100 million White men who are the most the heavily armed group of civilians in the world?
     
    "Adult entertainment".

    How can you enslave 100 million White men who are the most the heavily armed group of civilians in the world?

    “Adult entertainment”.

    The “adult entertainment” is the lure. Putting it all on credit cards is the trap.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    "The “adult entertainment” is the lure. Putting it all on credit cards is the trap."

    I may be out of touch, but do people pay for pornography any more? Isn't there loads of free stuff out there?

    The UK government (Theresa May) is trying to introduce age verification (via credit card) for UK people wanting to visit porn sites.
    , @Alden
    Don’t bring a hunting rifle to a tank battle. Sorry to be mean, but let’s be realistic.
  56. @Danny Govardhan Nimboda Belgaum
    Open borders are the need of the hour.
    Having been to many countries in Asia and Africa, I feel that a lot of immigration potential is present in those regions and they can significantly increase the size of the American economy. In order to counter China , we need to make sure that our population increases as well.
    Demographic change is inevitable. People like me who are of White European descent are going to become a minority,an absolute minority by late 2030s. We should not stop it, nor we should want it to stop.
    Europe has already started receiving it's fair share of African migrants and we should embrace the fact that Europe will become a land of "Mixed Race and Migrant inhabitants".
    Embracing all this won't be that hard. I was born in 1956, all three of my children are married to a person of color and my beautiful, brown grandchildren are the perfect representative of the future of this country.
    I am a proud American and America doesn't mean European Americans only. We have enough room for a billion people.

    Stockholm Syndrome

    • Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic
    Stockholm syndrome? More like one of the bank robbers, or wreckers. He's a Hindu who wants to bring in more Asians to assuage his sense of alienation in a majority-white country. "America," as he is repeatedly told by the goodwhites, is just a proposition, not a particular people nor even a particular place. The American biome is nothing to him but a constant, grating reminder of his outsider status. How many Hindu do you ever see backpacking, hunting or fishing, or looking at old monuments or architecture? You think he gives a hoot about the place becoming the same ramshackle, filthy, termite mound as India?

    The immigrant always wants more immigrants--his sense of grievance and resentment of his hosts defines him. We need a full, two-generation moratorium. We won't get it, so it will all end in tears.
  57. @Bardon Kaldian
    Just having good time....

    https://edition.cnn.com/2019/07/17/politics/donald-trump-racism-democrats-2020-election/index.html

    Trump may have finally broken Washington

    “Race Tweets”

  58. Anonymous[383] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon7
    Oh come on, nobody would support the idea of free health care for illegal immigrants!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMSmoNOZJ9Y

    What do you think happens now ? You show up at a hospital, they treat you, assist in births, whatever. It’s all farce.

    The goal is: Prevent entry and settlement in The United States. Rest is just conversation, chasing our tail

    • Replies: @Anon7
    Nowhere near the same thing. Most emergency rooms receive federal funding, and must treat whoever shows up. But, those in the country illegally including “dreamers” are only stabilized, and then released.

    For actual care, there is about one community health clinic for every 85,000 unauthorized immigrants, and one free health facility for every 100,000 undocumented immigrants across the country.
    , @Lurker
    Close the borders, deport the invaders, crush the traitors.
  59. @istevefan

    By turning their women and children against them while flooding them with hostile foreigners.
     
    Who is doing that? And why are the armed White men not resisting?

    “Who is doing that?”

    Good question.

    “And why are the armed White men not resisting?”

    A few have. It didn’t work out so well.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    Hanged separately.
  60. @eah
    It be like this:

    https://i.postimg.cc/QCwLvWsm/arbeitsmarkt-2019.png

    Interesting chart.

    As I understand it, the columns at the bottom are the pseudo-“asylum-seekers” that Merkel foolishly took in. At the chart’s scaling, they don’t appear to be so significant.

    The next line above the columns is the unemployed. That’s probably the native unemployed only. Why that number should jump and stay up ever since the arrival of the invaders is not clear. Maybe a few of the invaders displaced native workers.

    The top, steep line, which sets the scale for the entire chart, is something like “those entitled to benefits”. As you can see, those little monthly columns at the bottom of the chart really add up to a cumulative and permanent increase of about 600% here.

    So Germany provides a near laboratory-like case study for “what would open borders in a welfare state be like?” Answer: increased(!) unemployment for native workers, and a massive increase in useless eaters sucking at the national welfare teat.

    • Replies: @eah
    Eine kleine Hilfe:

    The key part is the line showing "Regelleistungsberechtige im SGB II" -- SGB II = Sozialgesetzbuch II, which regulates the so-called Grundsicherung = the basic support that per the German GG (Grundgesetz = Constitution) everyone is entitled to -- the reform of this Grundsicherung captured in SGB II is usually called Hartz IV (Hartz was the main author of the law/reforms) -- it is also called Arbeitslosengeld II, since if you lose your job you get more money (a fixed amount depending on how much you earned on your last job) for 1 year (Arbeitslosengeld I), and if by then you still do not have a job, you start getting Arbeitslosengeld II (Hartz IV), which is basically full welfare support according to individual/family needs -- so they pay for everything: housing, food, medical insurance, etc -- anything deemed necessary (a LOT is deemed necessary, believe me).

    This chart shows the dramatic rise since 2015 of asylum-seeking full welfare cases from just the countries listed ("Nichteuropäischen Asylherkunfstländern"): Afghanistan, Eritrea, Iraq, Iran, Nigeria, Pakistan, Somalia, and Syria.

    Experience/data shows: the vast majority of these people have no workplace value and will stay on Hartz IV for as long as they live in DE; also that the vast majority of them will never leave or be thrown out.

    And now they are being allowed to bring additional family members, who will also live off German taxpayers.

    Some of the data re Hartz IV is pretty dramatic:

    Hartz IV Quote steigt dramatisch an

    From this article: there are more Hartz IV recipients in Berlin than in all of Bavaria; in Essen and Dortmund it is 20% of the population; in cities with > 100k people, where most migrants end up, the percentage of people on Hartz IV has risen dramatically, and is typically 2x higher than in surrounding areas and in smaller cities (with fewer migrants).

    Germans call this "Zuwanderung in den Sozialkassen" = immigration right into the social welfare system -- of course another problem is that hardly any of these migrants who do work will be "Nettosteuerzahler" -- people who make a net positive contribution -- almost all of them will be "Geringverdiener" = low earners whose lives are subsidized by others (via higher marginal taxation and eg the fact you also pay a percentage of your income for health insurance).

    In a fairly recent interview, Sarrazin was asked for this thoughts about the future: he said quite bluntly that he did not think the German Establishment would honestly recognize the problem and do something about it before it was too late.

    , @Lurker

    probably the native unemployed only
     
    Some of the 'native' unemployed are themselves the offspring of earlier enrichers.
    , @Counterinsurgency

    increased(!) unemployment for native workers
     
    Here's how that works:
    a) Given a population with the usually assumed distribution of IQ (Normal, mean=100,standard deviation 15), about 28% will have an IQ between 80 and 95 (!!!). About 16% have a below 85 IQ, and about 9.1% and IQ of less than 80.

    European descended
    Mean IQ 100, std. dev. 15
    80<IQ<95 IQ<85 IQ<80
    28% 16% 9.1^%

    African
    Mean IQ 65, std. dev. 12
    80<IQ<95 IQ<85 IQ<80
    9.9% 99% 89%

    So: About 28% of the European descended working population has an IQ in the 80 to 95 range.
    But, even for an IQ 65 population, one in ten is in the same IQ range as the European descended population. Further, generally they have lower genetic load than the corresponding European descended population.

    In other words, about a tenth of the IQ 65 immigrant group will be able to displace European descended people from the workforce, and will presumably do so because of legal requirements.

    Note that people with IQ<80 generally cannot work productively in an industrial society, although they cause safety hazards. That means a permanent welfare load of about 9%, 1 in 11, for any European descended population, but an 89% permanent welfare load for the IQ 65 group.

    Counterinsurgency
  61. Hoaxahontas Warren and her ilk see illegal aliens as a future source of votes and cheap household labor.

    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist
    That's a good summary. You could improve it by deleting the word 'future'.
  62. @eah
    It be like this:

    https://i.postimg.cc/QCwLvWsm/arbeitsmarkt-2019.png

    Maybe someone who understands German could post an English translation of the chart

    • Replies: @eah
    I do and did in another comment.
  63. @Anon
    This lefty think-tanker gave the most push back to Dum:

    https://twitter.com/willwilkinson/status/1149736348640796673

    Points:

    - They're closed as long as they are not hremetically sealed.

    - EU countries have open borders [yeah, and so do U.S. states, which they resemble more than they resemble sovereign countries. He doesn't mention Canada, Mexico, Australia, Japan]

    - Anything with the ultimate effect of changing racial or ethnic composition in the direction of white is racist; you can increase Mexicans, but not decrease them

    Also, strawmanning in the form of ignoring that open/closed borders refers to illegals. If you have a valid immigrant or nonimmigrant visa (including tourist), have valid refugee or asylee applicant status, or have an ESTA registration and passed through immigration, hey, welcome in (while your status is active)!

    Lol, that guy used to be a libertarian too. Marx on a Moped, Will!

  64. @istevefan

    Slavery of White men is the only way to pay for it.
     
    How can you enslave 100 million White men who are the most the heavily armed group of civilians in the world?

    The main problem is they have guns but lack balls. So it’s like they don’t have guns at all.

    • Replies: @Simply Simon
    He who controls the police and the military controls the country, balls and muskets don't count.
  65. @Reg Cæsar

    We have enough room for a billion people.
     
    You must own a lot of property.

    Even if it were the Waggoner ranch, that'd still be 1.25 million per square mile. Not quite the Kowloon Walled City, but a long stride in that direction.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kowloon_Walled_City


    http://www.greggirard.com/content/gallery/Girard_kowloon015.jpg

    https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--lz7w7TMp--/c_scale,f_auto,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/18l4fx5thqlopjpg.jpg

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mq4jAwPdCMw

    I’m sort of kicking myself that I visited Hong Kong while the Kowloon Walled City was still around and didn’t go have a look. We even stayed in Kowloon now that I think about it. Man.

  66. @The Alarmist


    How can you enslave 100 million White men who are the most the heavily armed group of civilians in the world?
     
    “Adult entertainment”.
     
    The "adult entertainment" is the lure. Putting it all on credit cards is the trap.

    “The “adult entertainment” is the lure. Putting it all on credit cards is the trap.”

    I may be out of touch, but do people pay for pornography any more? Isn’t there loads of free stuff out there?

    The UK government (Theresa May) is trying to introduce age verification (via credit card) for UK people wanting to visit porn sites.

  67. OT

    In NJ, 4 people in a car sprayed people outside of a synagogue with water guns and yelled anti-semitic things at them. 3 out of 4 have been identified by police but not the press.

    https://www.nj.com/news/2019/07/gang-squirts-liquid-at-worshippers-leaving-nj-synagogue-hurls-anti-semitic-comments-official-says.html

    In the comments, people suggested it was the Squad.

  68. So…he’s making sense now?

    Funny he puts this right after the bit about cheering on the race war. Everyone here’s paranoid mutterings are starting to make more and more sense.

  69. @Almost Missouri
    Interesting chart.

    As I understand it, the columns at the bottom are the pseudo-"asylum-seekers" that Merkel foolishly took in. At the chart's scaling, they don't appear to be so significant.

    The next line above the columns is the unemployed. That's probably the native unemployed only. Why that number should jump and stay up ever since the arrival of the invaders is not clear. Maybe a few of the invaders displaced native workers.

    The top, steep line, which sets the scale for the entire chart, is something like "those entitled to benefits". As you can see, those little monthly columns at the bottom of the chart really add up to a cumulative and permanent increase of about 600% here.

    So Germany provides a near laboratory-like case study for "what would open borders in a welfare state be like?" Answer: increased(!) unemployment for native workers, and a massive increase in useless eaters sucking at the national welfare teat.

    Eine kleine Hilfe:

    The key part is the line showing “Regelleistungsberechtige im SGB II” — SGB II = Sozialgesetzbuch II, which regulates the so-called Grundsicherung = the basic support that per the German GG (Grundgesetz = Constitution) everyone is entitled to — the reform of this Grundsicherung captured in SGB II is usually called Hartz IV (Hartz was the main author of the law/reforms) — it is also called Arbeitslosengeld II, since if you lose your job you get more money (a fixed amount depending on how much you earned on your last job) for 1 year (Arbeitslosengeld I), and if by then you still do not have a job, you start getting Arbeitslosengeld II (Hartz IV), which is basically full welfare support according to individual/family needs — so they pay for everything: housing, food, medical insurance, etc — anything deemed necessary (a LOT is deemed necessary, believe me).

    This chart shows the dramatic rise since 2015 of asylum-seeking full welfare cases from just the countries listed (“Nichteuropäischen Asylherkunfstländern”): Afghanistan, Eritrea, Iraq, Iran, Nigeria, Pakistan, Somalia, and Syria.

    Experience/data shows: the vast majority of these people have no workplace value and will stay on Hartz IV for as long as they live in DE; also that the vast majority of them will never leave or be thrown out.

    And now they are being allowed to bring additional family members, who will also live off German taxpayers.

    Some of the data re Hartz IV is pretty dramatic:

    Hartz IV Quote steigt dramatisch an

    From this article: there are more Hartz IV recipients in Berlin than in all of Bavaria; in Essen and Dortmund it is 20% of the population; in cities with > 100k people, where most migrants end up, the percentage of people on Hartz IV has risen dramatically, and is typically 2x higher than in surrounding areas and in smaller cities (with fewer migrants).

    Germans call this “Zuwanderung in den Sozialkassen” = immigration right into the social welfare system — of course another problem is that hardly any of these migrants who do work will be “Nettosteuerzahler” — people who make a net positive contribution — almost all of them will be “Geringverdiener” = low earners whose lives are subsidized by others (via higher marginal taxation and eg the fact you also pay a percentage of your income for health insurance).

    In a fairly recent interview, Sarrazin was asked for this thoughts about the future: he said quite bluntly that he did not think the German Establishment would honestly recognize the problem and do something about it before it was too late.

    • Replies: @eah
    From this article: there are more Hartz IV recipients in Berlin than in all of Bavaria;

    To put this in some context: Berlin and Bavaria (Bayern) are both Bundesländer, ie in the German federal system both are roughly equivalent to a state in the United States of America (albeit Berlin is a city; the same is true for Hamburg and Bremen) -- Bavaria has nearly 4x as many people as Berlin, but Berlin has more welfare cases than all of Bavaria -- der Begriff (phrase) "Berliner Verhältnisse" (Berlin conditions) is used often in Germany and everyone knows what it means: disorder; crime; poverty; a large, poorly educated underclass with a disproportionate number of migrants; debt; and lousy government.

  70. @Anonymous
    What do you think happens now ? You show up at a hospital, they treat you, assist in births, whatever. It's all farce.

    The goal is: Prevent entry and settlement in The United States. Rest is just conversation, chasing our tail

    Nowhere near the same thing. Most emergency rooms receive federal funding, and must treat whoever shows up. But, those in the country illegally including “dreamers” are only stabilized, and then released.

    For actual care, there is about one community health clinic for every 85,000 unauthorized immigrants, and one free health facility for every 100,000 undocumented immigrants across the country.

  71. @Danny Govardhan Nimboda Belgaum
    Open borders are the need of the hour.
    Having been to many countries in Asia and Africa, I feel that a lot of immigration potential is present in those regions and they can significantly increase the size of the American economy. In order to counter China , we need to make sure that our population increases as well.
    Demographic change is inevitable. People like me who are of White European descent are going to become a minority,an absolute minority by late 2030s. We should not stop it, nor we should want it to stop.
    Europe has already started receiving it's fair share of African migrants and we should embrace the fact that Europe will become a land of "Mixed Race and Migrant inhabitants".
    Embracing all this won't be that hard. I was born in 1956, all three of my children are married to a person of color and my beautiful, brown grandchildren are the perfect representative of the future of this country.
    I am a proud American and America doesn't mean European Americans only. We have enough room for a billion people.

    all three of my children are married to a person of color …

    This comment could’ve been improved by adding four words, as follows:

    all three of my children are married to people of color who came here lee-ga-lee

    • Replies: @Cloudbuster
    That's really not important at all, except as an opportunity to point out that the problem isn't that they are illegal, the problem is that they are here.
    , @Alden
    Maybe the imaginary spouses are American blacks, ooga booga did say brown grandchildren.
  72. @Anon
    This lefty think-tanker gave the most push back to Dum:

    https://twitter.com/willwilkinson/status/1149736348640796673

    Points:

    - They're closed as long as they are not hremetically sealed.

    - EU countries have open borders [yeah, and so do U.S. states, which they resemble more than they resemble sovereign countries. He doesn't mention Canada, Mexico, Australia, Japan]

    - Anything with the ultimate effect of changing racial or ethnic composition in the direction of white is racist; you can increase Mexicans, but not decrease them

    Also, strawmanning in the form of ignoring that open/closed borders refers to illegals. If you have a valid immigrant or nonimmigrant visa (including tourist), have valid refugee or asylee applicant status, or have an ESTA registration and passed through immigration, hey, welcome in (while your status is active)!

    It seems to me that Wilkinson and his wife Kerry Howley were once affiliated with the Reason Foundation or Cato. Libertarians are not your friends.

    • Agree: Desiderius
    • Replies: @Desiderius
    Back in the earliest days of the blogosphere the Blogfather himself would regularly link Drum’s Calpundit blog.

    Can’t remember whether it was Iraq or hate for libertarians that got him disowned. Might be time for a re-evaluation.
  73. @Danny Govardhan Nimboda Belgaum
    Open borders are the need of the hour.
    Having been to many countries in Asia and Africa, I feel that a lot of immigration potential is present in those regions and they can significantly increase the size of the American economy. In order to counter China , we need to make sure that our population increases as well.
    Demographic change is inevitable. People like me who are of White European descent are going to become a minority,an absolute minority by late 2030s. We should not stop it, nor we should want it to stop.
    Europe has already started receiving it's fair share of African migrants and we should embrace the fact that Europe will become a land of "Mixed Race and Migrant inhabitants".
    Embracing all this won't be that hard. I was born in 1956, all three of my children are married to a person of color and my beautiful, brown grandchildren are the perfect representative of the future of this country.
    I am a proud American and America doesn't mean European Americans only. We have enough room for a billion people.

    I miss the “save the environment” trolls.

    At least they tried to use “science”.

  74. @Danny Govardhan Nimboda Belgaum
    Open borders are the need of the hour.
    Having been to many countries in Asia and Africa, I feel that a lot of immigration potential is present in those regions and they can significantly increase the size of the American economy. In order to counter China , we need to make sure that our population increases as well.
    Demographic change is inevitable. People like me who are of White European descent are going to become a minority,an absolute minority by late 2030s. We should not stop it, nor we should want it to stop.
    Europe has already started receiving it's fair share of African migrants and we should embrace the fact that Europe will become a land of "Mixed Race and Migrant inhabitants".
    Embracing all this won't be that hard. I was born in 1956, all three of my children are married to a person of color and my beautiful, brown grandchildren are the perfect representative of the future of this country.
    I am a proud American and America doesn't mean European Americans only. We have enough room for a billion people.

    You realize Africans have very low IQ and cannot into civilization?

  75. funnily, in a hypothetical all white people open borders America, CBP would just be abolished, but in our POC dominated future these jobs will remain as make work jobs for POC. So we won’t even get the benefits of open borders: saving money on border enforcement.

  76. To me, whenever you want to neuter immigration enforcement, oppose physical barriers, and give non-citizens, legal or illegal, most or all of the benefits that citizens get, I don’t think you can so easily skate away from the accusation that you are for open borders, even if you want some token and occasional enforcement of immigration law for special circumstances, mainly to give yourself plausible deniability and a defense mechanism from the open borders accusation.

  77. @trelane
    Open borders in a welfare state, what would that be like?

    Sweden.

    • Replies: @Pericles
    After the bum rush of the Swedish border in 2015, the social democrats actually did shut the gates for a while. Well, to an extent, at least.

    Now that the goyim have settled down, their Bilderberg coalition partners (an unholy mixture of parties) seem to be crying for opening things up once more.
  78. @Almost Missouri

    "Who is doing that?"
     
    Good question.

    "And why are the armed White men not resisting?"
     
    A few have. It didn't work out so well.

    Hanged separately.

  79. @Art Deco
    It seems to me that Wilkinson and his wife Kerry Howley were once affiliated with the Reason Foundation or Cato. Libertarians are not your friends.

    Back in the earliest days of the blogosphere the Blogfather himself would regularly link Drum’s Calpundit blog.

    Can’t remember whether it was Iraq or hate for libertarians that got him disowned. Might be time for a re-evaluation.

  80. @Dieter Kief
    Aha - Kevin Drum in Mother Jones. Is it that they get "that soemthing's happening here", of which they - for a long time - did not "know what it is"?

    What it is ain’t exactly clear…

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
    Cool & - touchy. Thanks.
  81. @Hail

    all three of my children are married to a person of color ...
     
    This comment could've been improved by adding four words, as follows:

    all three of my children are married to people of color who came here lee-ga-lee ...
     

    That’s really not important at all, except as an opportunity to point out that the problem isn’t that they are illegal, the problem is that they are here.

  82. @Reg Cæsar

    We have enough room for a billion people.
     
    You must own a lot of property.

    Even if it were the Waggoner ranch, that'd still be 1.25 million per square mile. Not quite the Kowloon Walled City, but a long stride in that direction.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kowloon_Walled_City


    http://www.greggirard.com/content/gallery/Girard_kowloon015.jpg

    https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--lz7w7TMp--/c_scale,f_auto,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/18l4fx5thqlopjpg.jpg

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mq4jAwPdCMw

    Reg, I get a feeling of uneasiness just looking at those images. Reminds me of a hi-rise version of Catal Huyuk: the settlement in southern Anatolia that flourished 9,000 years ago.

  83. @Danny Govardhan Nimboda Belgaum
    Open borders are the need of the hour.
    Having been to many countries in Asia and Africa, I feel that a lot of immigration potential is present in those regions and they can significantly increase the size of the American economy. In order to counter China , we need to make sure that our population increases as well.
    Demographic change is inevitable. People like me who are of White European descent are going to become a minority,an absolute minority by late 2030s. We should not stop it, nor we should want it to stop.
    Europe has already started receiving it's fair share of African migrants and we should embrace the fact that Europe will become a land of "Mixed Race and Migrant inhabitants".
    Embracing all this won't be that hard. I was born in 1956, all three of my children are married to a person of color and my beautiful, brown grandchildren are the perfect representative of the future of this country.
    I am a proud American and America doesn't mean European Americans only. We have enough room for a billion people.

    …all three of my children are married to a person of color…

    What’s it like to have a Muslim son-in-law?

    • Replies: @Hrw-500
    That's reminds me of that tweet I saw. https://twitter.com/RaceRealismUSA/status/1132971402104115202

    Just in case if it's deleted, it's saved on the Wayback Machine.
  84. @Michael S
    Now? They were always the party of open borders. They just couldn't get away with it 20 years ago.

    Now? They were always the party of open borders. They just couldn’t get away with it 20 years ago.

    The appropriate model to understand the Democrats’ position on immigration is the history of the Democrats’ position on gay marriage.

    Most of the party is at the “I believe marriage is a sacred bond between a man and a woman” with “God in the mix,” while simultaneously frustrating any legislative action to prevent gay marriage stage with regard to open borders.

    They’re biding their time with phony denials until the demographic tipping point has been achieved before being patent about what they want.

  85. It’s a really bad sign when the rest of the media has gone so nuts that Mother Jones looks sensible.

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
    Mother Jones was great up until - - -? 1995? Ca.

    One of the more popular magazines in Germany Der Stern -- left wing, usually, has - - - all of a sudden, I must say, a lengthy and quite correct story about Rotherham, this week. - Maybe somethings's happening here. Social Democrat Mette Frederiksen got elected president in Denmark not long ago with a distinctly immigration-critical agenda - and there's not only Italy's Big Man Matteo Salvini, but Kurz in Austria too, who supports Salvinis immigration-critical politcs, and there is Victor Orban and - there is Prime Minister Sanchez in Spain, who is very restrictive towards open borders. Not to forget Norway and Poland!

    We'll see.

    , @Kronos
    What Left leaning magazines do you believe to be the LEAST Woke? This might be the start of a great list.
  86. @Reg Cæsar

    We have enough room for a billion people.
     
    You must own a lot of property.

    Even if it were the Waggoner ranch, that'd still be 1.25 million per square mile. Not quite the Kowloon Walled City, but a long stride in that direction.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kowloon_Walled_City


    http://www.greggirard.com/content/gallery/Girard_kowloon015.jpg

    https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--lz7w7TMp--/c_scale,f_auto,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/18l4fx5thqlopjpg.jpg

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mq4jAwPdCMw

    Poster #2 asserted,

    > We [sic] have enough room for a billion people.

    He’s answered the question that every politician of every stripe should be asked, relentlessly. The Most Important Question.

    The US population jumped 122 million in 50 years and now stands at 330 million. Considering how mass immigration depresses wages, inflates housing costs, worsens the environment, crowds roads and classrooms, stresses health care, increases inequality, weakens Social Security, imports anti-democratic customs, promotes global warming, erodes workplace safety, and robs talent from donor countries — What should the US population be, 50 years from now?

    Respond with a number, not with pretty words.

    The other Most Important Question: Who makes this policy decision: Davos billionaires, international agency bureaucrats, or American voters?

    • Agree: Hail
    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    weakens Social Security
     
    Mass immigration would weaken it if it were an actual investment. But it's strictly a welfare program, kept alive by politics and taxes.

    Flooding the country with poor peons actually helps the welfare state. Or at least the interests behind it.
  87. @Danny Govardhan Nimboda Belgaum
    Open borders are the need of the hour.
    Having been to many countries in Asia and Africa, I feel that a lot of immigration potential is present in those regions and they can significantly increase the size of the American economy. In order to counter China , we need to make sure that our population increases as well.
    Demographic change is inevitable. People like me who are of White European descent are going to become a minority,an absolute minority by late 2030s. We should not stop it, nor we should want it to stop.
    Europe has already started receiving it's fair share of African migrants and we should embrace the fact that Europe will become a land of "Mixed Race and Migrant inhabitants".
    Embracing all this won't be that hard. I was born in 1956, all three of my children are married to a person of color and my beautiful, brown grandchildren are the perfect representative of the future of this country.
    I am a proud American and America doesn't mean European Americans only. We have enough room for a billion people.

    I think this comment is sarcasm. Or trying to stir things up.

    Some Americans move to Asia for various reasons like our friend Jeff. Some move to Africa although African expats tend to be European, Chinese and middle eastern not American

    But unless ooga booga was in the State department or lifer military I very much doubt he spent much time on both continents.

  88. @Hail

    all three of my children are married to a person of color ...
     
    This comment could've been improved by adding four words, as follows:

    all three of my children are married to people of color who came here lee-ga-lee ...
     

    Maybe the imaginary spouses are American blacks, ooga booga did say brown grandchildren.

  89. @The Alarmist


    How can you enslave 100 million White men who are the most the heavily armed group of civilians in the world?
     
    “Adult entertainment”.
     
    The "adult entertainment" is the lure. Putting it all on credit cards is the trap.

    Don’t bring a hunting rifle to a tank battle. Sorry to be mean, but let’s be realistic.

  90. In more logic oriented times it would be a fun troll for Trump or republicans in congress to propose a sweeping federal gun law that parallels the points and effects of the Warren (and other democratic candidate) immigration plans. All local gun laws overridden. All guns illegal with out a permit but civil enforcement only and only on convicted felons, etc.

  91. the LA Times put this on the same page as a bunch of articles about emotionally distressed immigrants: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-07-16/ms-13-murders-los-angeles-gang

  92. @istevefan

    Are Democrats Now the Party of Open Borders?
     
    Both parties support open borders.

    People seem think that open borders has to mean a fully open border like a water faucet that is fully open. But not having any plans to reduce or eliminate a yearly intake of 1 to 2 million, year after year, is akin to having a faucet partially open with no plans to ever turn it off. It might take longer to flood the space with water, but if the partially closed faucet is never to be turned off, you essentially have a fully open one.

    Likewise, if the number of immigrants we have been taking for the past half century continues at its current clip, then effectively we have open borders. It might take longer to demographically transform the nation with a limit of 1 to 2 million people per year. But as the past half century has shown, it will happen.

    And since both parties have no plans or intentions on reducing this yearly intake, both parties essentially support open borders.

    This is pretty much right. The Democrats are not as extreme in real life as they play on TV and the Republicans are not as strict. It is all theater trying to grab the marginal vote here and there, but the general consensus has not really changed, despite Trump. The elite still wants immigration.

    There was an interesting article in a Polish newspaper today about serfdom, and how prior to the 1830s, the Polish aristocracy didn’t really see peasants as human beings at all. They were basically another form of livestock, but harder to manage. It was only when outside powers started destroying the Polish aristocracy that the Szlachty realized that they and the peasants were actually part of one nation, and needed to work together. I see a lot of parallels in that to the current US situation. Our business elites, including Trump, also don’t really care about their workers as human beings, and they are all interchangeable. All things being equal, it is better for the bottom line to hire a docile Latino or an Indian you can threaten by pulling his visa. And better to keep the American worker stupid and uninformed. Unfortunately the Polish elite learned their lesson only after it was too late to save Poland. It took some luck and a destructive war between foreign elites to create a window for Poland to re-emerge. The US may not be as lucky.

    • Agree: ic1000
    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    There are two differences between slaves/serfs and people with wages.

    On one hand, people with wages are free to get a job somewhere else.

    On the other hand, slaves/serfs have to be provided food, clothing and shelter.

    When capitalism works best (often with unions, except the unions sometimes get very corrupt) the workers have a lifetime job and the freedom to find a better job if they wish; they have enough money for their basic necessities, and enough money for some free time and eventual retirement.

    When capitalism is at its worst the workers have temporary and/or part-time jobs or even no job at all, no security, and often not enough money to cover food, clothing and shelter. This is the case for far too many workers.

    Eve worse, now we have a situation in which the workers have to pay for their own training. Workers often take out massive student loans at colleges or trade schools. Many of these are complete scams, and in many cases the workers get the debts but not the training. Once trained, they have to pay exorbitant interest rates for the chance of maybe getting a job, or maybe not.

    After all that, with massive student loans to cover in addition to the basic necessities, the workers often have to compete with immigrants (legal or otherwise) or H1-B visa workers who drive the wages down and housing prices up.
    , @Counterinsurgency

    This is pretty much right. The Democrats are not as extreme in real life as they play on TV and the Republicans are not as strict. It is all theater trying to grab the marginal vote here and there, but the general consensus has not really changed, despite Trump. The elite still wants immigration.
     
    Yep. That's the crucial problem right there: it's all a lie. That's what brought down the USSR: nobody believed anything, theft was endemic, money allocated by the central planners was re-allocated by descending layer of "bosses" as it moved down the bureaucratic chain, until its actual use had nothing to do with the planner's intended use, nothing could change, and the system was maintained by petty brutality. The USSR had "minority groups" also. We have Democrat/fanatics and Republican/greedy empty suits; they had Stalinist communists and nomenclatura/bureaucratic Communists. The system proved unstable.

    Counterinsurgency
  93. The Bush Organized Crime Syndicate Pushes Open Borders Mass Legal Immigration And Amnesty For Illegal Alien Invaders

    The Democrat Party Pushes Open Borders Mass Legal Immigration And Amnesty For Illegal Alien Invaders

    Trump And The Republican Party Politician Whores Push Open Borders Mass Legal Immigration And Amnesty For Illegal Alien Invaders

    Tweets from 2015:

  94. @Massimo Heitor

    Open borders in a welfare state, what would that be like?

     

    People are usually less supporting of generous social benefits for "other" people. A sharp spike in ethnic/cultural/linguistic diversity and "otherness" will undermine solidarity, and undermine the willingness to support or tolerate generous government benefits. That's the big argument from many libertarians, and it's absolutely possible.

    Honestly, I can imagine a utopian future where it works out for the best with an ultra-diverse AnCap system where everything is driven by markets, no democracy, no majority rule, no state owned university system, work and trade. The big counter argument is that's a heck of a gamble. No one really knows how things will play out. And sure, who knows how anything will work out. Who knows how technology and automation and pollution and population growth will play out in the long run. In the long run, we are all dead. I still feel like open borders is more risk than gain for myself and my family. But, I recognize I have zero say in the issue, and will prepare for the future as best I can.

    I recognize I have zero say in the issue

    I agree with that part, but it contradicts your earlier statements:

    People are usually less supporting of generous social benefits for “other” people. A sharp spike in ethnic/cultural/linguistic diversity and “otherness” will undermine solidarity, and undermine the willingness to support or tolerate generous government benefits.

    Everyone knows much of today’s welfare state is fraud, but no one can seem to rein it in. Approval ratings for Congress is in single digits, but little seems to change with each election. It just looks like an emergent characteristic of today’s world that it is welfare state uber alles to soak up all the production of the machine world.

    Libertarians keep preaching the glories of a natural free market, but they want central authorities to impose it.

  95. US Senator John McCain pushed open borders mass legal immigration and amnesty for illegal alien invaders.

    I disagreed very strongly with McCain on immigration, trade, foreign policy and American national identity, but I’ll say in McCain’s favor that he loved the rhetorical combat of presidential primary townhall events and he gave every person the chance to have their say to him.

    I had the opportunity to confront US Senator John McCain on his support for open borders mass immigration at a presidential primary townhall event in 2007 in New Hampshire.

    Tweet from 2015:

    • Replies: @UrbaneFrancoOntarian
    Good work.

    You're on point like 10 years before anybody was even talking about this stuff. Do you still go to any politicians' events?
  96. @Daniel H
    Now? They were always the party of open borders. They just couldn’t get away with it 20 years ago.

    No. 50 years ago when the Democrats were comprised of white proles they looked out for the interest of the proles. But the Democrats started alienating white proles as far back as 1968. It's the Republicans and their uber Capital ideology who have always advocated open borders, and they still do. They are chortling with glee watching the Democrats twist themselves insane over this issue, but if they get power they will quietly and determinedly do what the Democrats are threatening. The Cucks are a greater danger.

    I am a few months younger than Steve.

    It is amazing how quickly things have changed in my lifetime.

    50 years ago, the Democratic Party was still the party of the working man, although that was starting to change. As amazingly corrupt as HHH was, he had very strong Union support. Well, considering how amazingly corrupt the unions were, maybe that wasn’t surprising.

    Effectively, LBJ was the one who started the rift between working class whites and the better educated liberals. Part of it was his stand on civil rights; perhaps most of it was the Vietnam War. While working class people of all races were most likely to wind up in Vietnam, most of the protesters were middle to upper-class college students, often with long hair and a disheveled appearance. The blue collar workers didn’t take kindly to the hippies and hippy wannabees protesting the war.

    Also, the drain on the economy of the combination of the Great Society and the Vietnam War was enormous. The stagnation and inflation of the 1970s was outrageous.

    In all, LBJ turned a massive Democratic majority into a party that couldn’t win again until Clinton, except for Carter, who barely beat a weak Gerald Ford in the aftermath of Watergate.

    I am a well-educated liberal, with a Ph.D. in the hard sciences. But I greatly yearn for the days when there was a political party that cared about working people. I have been doing computer programming for about 20 years. During that time, wages have stagnated while housing costs have skyrocketed in those cities with a lot of programmers. A programmer could live very well 20 years ago. Now, not so much.

    What well-educated liberals forget is that when there is no party to look after working people, the college educated working people get screwed as well. It is rough to have had one job move overseas, and other job lost to an H1-B visa holder. It is tough to only be able to get contracting jobs, with the rates being what was market rate 20 years ago when prices were a lot cheaper.

    • Replies: @Counterinsurgency
    Cattle can die from tick infestation.

    Counterinsurgency
  97. @Danny Govardhan Nimboda Belgaum
    Open borders are the need of the hour.
    Having been to many countries in Asia and Africa, I feel that a lot of immigration potential is present in those regions and they can significantly increase the size of the American economy. In order to counter China , we need to make sure that our population increases as well.
    Demographic change is inevitable. People like me who are of White European descent are going to become a minority,an absolute minority by late 2030s. We should not stop it, nor we should want it to stop.
    Europe has already started receiving it's fair share of African migrants and we should embrace the fact that Europe will become a land of "Mixed Race and Migrant inhabitants".
    Embracing all this won't be that hard. I was born in 1956, all three of my children are married to a person of color and my beautiful, brown grandchildren are the perfect representative of the future of this country.
    I am a proud American and America doesn't mean European Americans only. We have enough room for a billion people.

    Your post sounds strangely like someone who posts an ad looking for an unregistered revolver and a single bullet. Suicide is not the answer! LOL!

  98. @istevefan

    Slavery of White men is the only way to pay for it.
     
    How can you enslave 100 million White men who are the most the heavily armed group of civilians in the world?

    Progressive income tax.

  99. @Peter Akuleyev
    This is pretty much right. The Democrats are not as extreme in real life as they play on TV and the Republicans are not as strict. It is all theater trying to grab the marginal vote here and there, but the general consensus has not really changed, despite Trump. The elite still wants immigration.

    There was an interesting article in a Polish newspaper today about serfdom, and how prior to the 1830s, the Polish aristocracy didn't really see peasants as human beings at all. They were basically another form of livestock, but harder to manage. It was only when outside powers started destroying the Polish aristocracy that the Szlachty realized that they and the peasants were actually part of one nation, and needed to work together. I see a lot of parallels in that to the current US situation. Our business elites, including Trump, also don't really care about their workers as human beings, and they are all interchangeable. All things being equal, it is better for the bottom line to hire a docile Latino or an Indian you can threaten by pulling his visa. And better to keep the American worker stupid and uninformed. Unfortunately the Polish elite learned their lesson only after it was too late to save Poland. It took some luck and a destructive war between foreign elites to create a window for Poland to re-emerge. The US may not be as lucky.

    There are two differences between slaves/serfs and people with wages.

    On one hand, people with wages are free to get a job somewhere else.

    On the other hand, slaves/serfs have to be provided food, clothing and shelter.

    When capitalism works best (often with unions, except the unions sometimes get very corrupt) the workers have a lifetime job and the freedom to find a better job if they wish; they have enough money for their basic necessities, and enough money for some free time and eventual retirement.

    When capitalism is at its worst the workers have temporary and/or part-time jobs or even no job at all, no security, and often not enough money to cover food, clothing and shelter. This is the case for far too many workers.

    Eve worse, now we have a situation in which the workers have to pay for their own training. Workers often take out massive student loans at colleges or trade schools. Many of these are complete scams, and in many cases the workers get the debts but not the training. Once trained, they have to pay exorbitant interest rates for the chance of maybe getting a job, or maybe not.

    After all that, with massive student loans to cover in addition to the basic necessities, the workers often have to compete with immigrants (legal or otherwise) or H1-B visa workers who drive the wages down and housing prices up.

    • Replies: @Counterinsurgency
    Well, strictly speaking the peasants were provided with land and the right to chattels and produced their own food and that of the local landlord as well, but your basic point is certainly correct:
    from one viewpoint, the entire medieval / dark ages system was an attempt to preserve the serfs, since without them everybody died. Workers today are considered expendable by a not very bright [1] ruling elite.

    Counterinsurgency

    1] "not very bright". That's literal. I've worked with them quite a bit. Like the Communists of the late Soviet government, the only thing keeping them in affluence is the system they fight to defend.
  100. @trelane
    Open borders in a welfare state, what would that be like?

    Open borders with no welfare could at least theoretically work out. With welfare for the limitless immigrants, I don’t see how it could be anything but a fiscal disaster.

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal

    Open borders with no welfare could at least theoretically work out. With welfare for the limitless immigrants, I don’t see how it could be anything but a fiscal disaster.
     
    Just to make things clear, open borders with no welfare is the Neo-Con way. George W. Bush, Paul Ryan, etc.

    And no, I am NOT accusing you of being a neo-con. I notice you pointed this out as a theoretical possibility. I just want to make it clear I am not arguing with you. It is a valid point of view.

    There are 4 logical ways to do this:

    1. Open borders with no welfare state. This is the neo-con way. Wages go way down, housing prices go way up, people wind up homeless and starving. Eventually, the hope is that people will stop migrating because the US will be just as bad a third world country as their home. Trouble is, we cannot have a stable democratic republic this way. We could have a banana republic that lasts until overthrown by the ballot or the bullet.

    2. Neither open borders nor a welfare state. This is the way of many (not all) of the closed border conservatives. In theory, wages go up and housing costs go down because of the limited labor. The biggest problem is with people who are disabled.

    3. Closed borders and a welfare state. This was similar to Sweden before they decided to try open borders and a welfare state. It worked very well for the Swedes; to a great extent because they were a cohesive group of intelligent and honest people. Up to 2015 this was the Bernie Sanders way.
    I would like something similar to this, but not as much of a welfare state as Sweden had. I would like something in between what we have now, and a full-blown Sweden. Maybe more of a Western Europe style of universal health care and universal free or inexpensive college tuition, although no countries in Europe or anywhere else can match the American college and university system. The UK is the best of the rest of the world.

    4. Open borders and a welfare state. This seems to be the way of "The Squad", and is unfortunately catching on with the rest of the Democratic Party. See Sweden in the Current Year to see how well this works. Realize that Sweden in the Current Year is the best possible implementation of this policy. The only way this can work is with exorbitant taxes until the system completely falls apart into Venezuela.
  101. @guest
    "America doesn't mean European Americans only."

    Only? No, we can use Africans to pick cotton and Asians to do laundry.

    "I was born in 1956"

    Hmm. I wonder if anyone has noticed a connection between boomerism and shortsighted political opinions.

    I took DGNB’s comment to be ironic .

    • Replies: @JudgeSmails


    Embracing all this won’t be that hard. I was born in 1956, all three of my children are married to a person of color and my beautiful, brown grandchildren are the perfect representative of the future of this country.
     
    You may well be right. On a second reading this particular passage seems to have jumped the shark.

    Sometimes you have to dial it back to maintain a realistic, believable narrative.
  102. @Anonymous
    What do you think happens now ? You show up at a hospital, they treat you, assist in births, whatever. It's all farce.

    The goal is: Prevent entry and settlement in The United States. Rest is just conversation, chasing our tail

    Close the borders, deport the invaders, crush the traitors.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Third listed has to come first for the other two to be possible.
  103. @Almost Missouri
    Interesting chart.

    As I understand it, the columns at the bottom are the pseudo-"asylum-seekers" that Merkel foolishly took in. At the chart's scaling, they don't appear to be so significant.

    The next line above the columns is the unemployed. That's probably the native unemployed only. Why that number should jump and stay up ever since the arrival of the invaders is not clear. Maybe a few of the invaders displaced native workers.

    The top, steep line, which sets the scale for the entire chart, is something like "those entitled to benefits". As you can see, those little monthly columns at the bottom of the chart really add up to a cumulative and permanent increase of about 600% here.

    So Germany provides a near laboratory-like case study for "what would open borders in a welfare state be like?" Answer: increased(!) unemployment for native workers, and a massive increase in useless eaters sucking at the national welfare teat.

    probably the native unemployed only

    Some of the ‘native’ unemployed are themselves the offspring of earlier enrichers.

  104. @NOTA
    Open borders with no welfare could at least theoretically work out. With welfare for the limitless immigrants, I don’t see how it could be anything but a fiscal disaster.

    Open borders with no welfare could at least theoretically work out. With welfare for the limitless immigrants, I don’t see how it could be anything but a fiscal disaster.

    Just to make things clear, open borders with no welfare is the Neo-Con way. George W. Bush, Paul Ryan, etc.

    And no, I am NOT accusing you of being a neo-con. I notice you pointed this out as a theoretical possibility. I just want to make it clear I am not arguing with you. It is a valid point of view.

    There are 4 logical ways to do this:

    1. Open borders with no welfare state. This is the neo-con way. Wages go way down, housing prices go way up, people wind up homeless and starving. Eventually, the hope is that people will stop migrating because the US will be just as bad a third world country as their home. Trouble is, we cannot have a stable democratic republic this way. We could have a banana republic that lasts until overthrown by the ballot or the bullet.

    2. Neither open borders nor a welfare state. This is the way of many (not all) of the closed border conservatives. In theory, wages go up and housing costs go down because of the limited labor. The biggest problem is with people who are disabled.

    3. Closed borders and a welfare state. This was similar to Sweden before they decided to try open borders and a welfare state. It worked very well for the Swedes; to a great extent because they were a cohesive group of intelligent and honest people. Up to 2015 this was the Bernie Sanders way.
    I would like something similar to this, but not as much of a welfare state as Sweden had. I would like something in between what we have now, and a full-blown Sweden. Maybe more of a Western Europe style of universal health care and universal free or inexpensive college tuition, although no countries in Europe or anywhere else can match the American college and university system. The UK is the best of the rest of the world.

    4. Open borders and a welfare state. This seems to be the way of “The Squad”, and is unfortunately catching on with the rest of the Democratic Party. See Sweden in the Current Year to see how well this works. Realize that Sweden in the Current Year is the best possible implementation of this policy. The only way this can work is with exorbitant taxes until the system completely falls apart into Venezuela.

  105. @Danny Govardhan Nimboda Belgaum
    Open borders are the need of the hour.
    Having been to many countries in Asia and Africa, I feel that a lot of immigration potential is present in those regions and they can significantly increase the size of the American economy. In order to counter China , we need to make sure that our population increases as well.
    Demographic change is inevitable. People like me who are of White European descent are going to become a minority,an absolute minority by late 2030s. We should not stop it, nor we should want it to stop.
    Europe has already started receiving it's fair share of African migrants and we should embrace the fact that Europe will become a land of "Mixed Race and Migrant inhabitants".
    Embracing all this won't be that hard. I was born in 1956, all three of my children are married to a person of color and my beautiful, brown grandchildren are the perfect representative of the future of this country.
    I am a proud American and America doesn't mean European Americans only. We have enough room for a billion people.

    Oh look, an off topic one-post from an unfamiliar name lacking literary references or plays on words (trying to be a conventional name, although this one is a bit unusual), trying to frame open borders madness in something lkke a “personal testimonial” television commercial. This happened yesterday under the name Laura. This is David Brock’s shtick, “content creation,” social media damage control, the pollution of the wired with hokey advertising nudge-language. As with really clumsy commercials whose catchphrases become jokes, it fails becaise it’s so obvious. Neither “this guy” nor “Laura” (who may be the same person) read the post or responded to it, or brought up anything tangentially relevant. Imagine your breakfast interrupted by a diner patron standing up and reciting the script to a campaign spot. It wouldn’t win votes, it would win stares.

  106. @Lurker
    Close the borders, deport the invaders, crush the traitors.

    Third listed has to come first for the other two to be possible.

    • Replies: @Lurker
    Indeed so, I acknowledge that and others have made the same point. It just sounded better.
  107. @ic1000
    Poster #2 asserted,

    > We [sic] have enough room for a billion people.

    He's answered the question that every politician of every stripe should be asked, relentlessly. The Most Important Question.

    The US population jumped 122 million in 50 years and now stands at 330 million. Considering how mass immigration depresses wages, inflates housing costs, worsens the environment, crowds roads and classrooms, stresses health care, increases inequality, weakens Social Security, imports anti-democratic customs, promotes global warming, erodes workplace safety, and robs talent from donor countries -- What should the US population be, 50 years from now?

    Respond with a number, not with pretty words.

    The other Most Important Question: Who makes this policy decision: Davos billionaires, international agency bureaucrats, or American voters?

    weakens Social Security

    Mass immigration would weaken it if it were an actual investment. But it’s strictly a welfare program, kept alive by politics and taxes.

    Flooding the country with poor peons actually helps the welfare state. Or at least the interests behind it.

  108. @istevefan

    By turning their women and children against them while flooding them with hostile foreigners.
     
    Who is doing that? And why are the armed White men not resisting?

    The who is largely mass media, academia, and The Foundations. There’s something in common there and it isn’t reverence for the prophet Muhammad.

  109. @PiltdownMan

    ...all three of my children are married to a person of color...
     
    What’s it like to have a Muslim son-in-law?

    That’s reminds me of that tweet I saw. https://twitter.com/RaceRealismUSA/status/1132971402104115202

    Just in case if it’s deleted, it’s saved on the Wayback Machine.

  110. The Democratic Party is the Party that wants to DEMOGRAPHICALLY MURDER…..The Historic Native Born White American Working Class Majority……..IN COLD BLOOD!!!!

  111. @anon
    "They were always the party of open borders."

    The left spent years minimizing the issue. Their goons on Comedy Central, fore example, (Jon Stewart, Trevor Noah) continually attacked conservatives for over dramatizing immigration issues, border caravans and the rest. Of course, those conservatives were completely correct. Either these leftists were ignorant empty suits deep in denial or they were disingenuous liars hoping to cover the democratic party's rear. Take you pick.

    “Take you pick.”

    I take the liberty of picking both, because that’s how it usually falls. On the other hand, the issue is moot. Forget Trump, because both parties have effectively thrown in the towel on the issue of immigration. It will end badly of course because the Achilles Heel of uncontrolled, if not uncontrollable, immigration is the issue of long-term public health–and neither party wants to go “there.” The measles outbreak (which is almost certainly related to mass immigration) is barely the tip of the iceberg. Stay tuned, because there is far, FAR more to come. And I shudder to think what it’ll be.

  112. @Anon
    This lefty think-tanker gave the most push back to Dum:

    https://twitter.com/willwilkinson/status/1149736348640796673

    Points:

    - They're closed as long as they are not hremetically sealed.

    - EU countries have open borders [yeah, and so do U.S. states, which they resemble more than they resemble sovereign countries. He doesn't mention Canada, Mexico, Australia, Japan]

    - Anything with the ultimate effect of changing racial or ethnic composition in the direction of white is racist; you can increase Mexicans, but not decrease them

    Also, strawmanning in the form of ignoring that open/closed borders refers to illegals. If you have a valid immigrant or nonimmigrant visa (including tourist), have valid refugee or asylee applicant status, or have an ESTA registration and passed through immigration, hey, welcome in (while your status is active)!

    Last I heard of young master Wilkinson he was getting into it with the belated ClarkHat of Popehat fame.

    Anyone know where Clarkhat’s gotten off to these days?

  113. @istevefan

    Slavery of White men is the only way to pay for it.
     
    How can you enslave 100 million White men who are the most the heavily armed group of civilians in the world?

    If we can’t win hearts and minds, being heavily armed is irrelevant. White liberal women are sadly our Achilles heel.

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    There are solutions:

    The Trump solution: marry a woman from Eastern Europe. It worked so well for Trump he did it twice!

    The Derbyshire solution: marry a woman from East Asia. True, the kids will be half Asian, but if they grow up among white folks, they will be culturally more white than Asian. The offspring, esp. the female offspring, are considered attractive, so there is a good chance of at least some 75% white grandchildren.

    Variations on the theme: some men who don't have great jobs have gotten Filipina or Thai women. Some men prefer the "jungle Asians" anyway. Or, there is the Jeb Bush solution. Marry a Latina.

    The take-it-or-leave-it solution: about 3/5 of the young college graduates these days are female. Young, white college educated men with a good job are a hot commodity these days. Plenty of white, Asian and Latina women looking for the relatively rare men. At some point the choice will be a man of whatever political beliefs, or no man at all.

    And yes, marrying a woman from a different political party can work. My wife is a Republican, I am a Democrat. Some liberals ask how I can stand to be around Trump voters. Well, I grew up in the South with some extremely conservative relatives. You deal with family and friends even if you disagree with their political views.
    , @L Woods
    They always are. The eternal fifth columnist.
  114. @jim jones
    Maybe someone who understands German could post an English translation of the chart

    I do and did in another comment.

  115. eah says:
    @eah
    Eine kleine Hilfe:

    The key part is the line showing "Regelleistungsberechtige im SGB II" -- SGB II = Sozialgesetzbuch II, which regulates the so-called Grundsicherung = the basic support that per the German GG (Grundgesetz = Constitution) everyone is entitled to -- the reform of this Grundsicherung captured in SGB II is usually called Hartz IV (Hartz was the main author of the law/reforms) -- it is also called Arbeitslosengeld II, since if you lose your job you get more money (a fixed amount depending on how much you earned on your last job) for 1 year (Arbeitslosengeld I), and if by then you still do not have a job, you start getting Arbeitslosengeld II (Hartz IV), which is basically full welfare support according to individual/family needs -- so they pay for everything: housing, food, medical insurance, etc -- anything deemed necessary (a LOT is deemed necessary, believe me).

    This chart shows the dramatic rise since 2015 of asylum-seeking full welfare cases from just the countries listed ("Nichteuropäischen Asylherkunfstländern"): Afghanistan, Eritrea, Iraq, Iran, Nigeria, Pakistan, Somalia, and Syria.

    Experience/data shows: the vast majority of these people have no workplace value and will stay on Hartz IV for as long as they live in DE; also that the vast majority of them will never leave or be thrown out.

    And now they are being allowed to bring additional family members, who will also live off German taxpayers.

    Some of the data re Hartz IV is pretty dramatic:

    Hartz IV Quote steigt dramatisch an

    From this article: there are more Hartz IV recipients in Berlin than in all of Bavaria; in Essen and Dortmund it is 20% of the population; in cities with > 100k people, where most migrants end up, the percentage of people on Hartz IV has risen dramatically, and is typically 2x higher than in surrounding areas and in smaller cities (with fewer migrants).

    Germans call this "Zuwanderung in den Sozialkassen" = immigration right into the social welfare system -- of course another problem is that hardly any of these migrants who do work will be "Nettosteuerzahler" -- people who make a net positive contribution -- almost all of them will be "Geringverdiener" = low earners whose lives are subsidized by others (via higher marginal taxation and eg the fact you also pay a percentage of your income for health insurance).

    In a fairly recent interview, Sarrazin was asked for this thoughts about the future: he said quite bluntly that he did not think the German Establishment would honestly recognize the problem and do something about it before it was too late.

    From this article: there are more Hartz IV recipients in Berlin than in all of Bavaria;

    To put this in some context: Berlin and Bavaria (Bayern) are both Bundesländer, ie in the German federal system both are roughly equivalent to a state in the United States of America (albeit Berlin is a city; the same is true for Hamburg and Bremen) — Bavaria has nearly 4x as many people as Berlin, but Berlin has more welfare cases than all of Bavaria — der Begriff (phrase) “Berliner Verhältnisse” (Berlin conditions) is used often in Germany and everyone knows what it means: disorder; crime; poverty; a large, poorly educated underclass with a disproportionate number of migrants; debt; and lousy government.

  116. Pelosi is not a free agent. She is totally beholden to the Asian, black, Hispanic caucuses who hold a veto on anything that gets out of committee. She is a marionette with a white feminist face that moves her mouth when the strings are pulled but it is the ventriloquist that you are hearing.

    In other words, “when they want her opinion, they will give her one”.

    None of those groups has the slightest interest in lowering immigration from their respective tribes so she is unable to either negotiate with the Republicans in good faith or make a single change that would actually be effective in controlling immigration. By putting a white face on the message, she is providing cover from the radical brown mob that is taking over her party.

    She still has some leverage as the leader due to the fact that she can raise money but that money comes from white and Jewish Democratic members who are probably beginning to see the writing on the wall. Both will eventually be turfed out of the Democratic party. The recent humiliation with the Squat first calling her a racist and then her taking the floor to denounce Trump only to have the Republicans laugh in her face should be the sign that she is out of control and almost irrelevant.

    Ironically her recent scolding of Trump was aimed at fellow whites in the Republican party who while belonging to a different political tribe, still speak the same basic language and have similar cultural roots so they can understand her. This differs from the new emerging majority in her party that only understands what they want to understand which is typically hand to mouth issues.

    • Replies: @MEH 0910

    She still has some leverage as the leader due to the fact that she can raise money but that money comes from white and Jewish Democratic members who are probably beginning to see the writing on the wall. Both will eventually be turfed out of the Democratic party.
     
    Vanity Fair:

    “Chuck Schumer F--ked Us”: Progressives Rage as Democratic Tensions Erupt Over the Humanitarian Border Crisis

    Pelosi is struggling to hold her caucus together over a spending bill that progressives see as a capitulation to Trump. “We just gave them more money to continue the status quo,” said Rashida Tlaib. “I’m pissed,” said AOC.

    By Abigail Tracy
    June 28, 2019

    ******
    Others put the responsibility at the feet of their Democratic colleagues in the Senate. “Chuck Schumer fucked us,” the senior democratic aide told me. Because Senate Democrats fell in line with McConnell and overwhelmingly voted “yes” on the legislation—with seven senators absent for the 2020 debates, it passed 84 to 8—there was no way Pelosi couldn’t take up the bill for a vote, the thinking goes. “The Senate decided to hijack our bill that was sent over there, which I didn’t support, but they sent it back completely bare of any of those protections,” Tlaib told me, exasperated.
     
  117. @Danny Govardhan Nimboda Belgaum
    Open borders are the need of the hour.
    Having been to many countries in Asia and Africa, I feel that a lot of immigration potential is present in those regions and they can significantly increase the size of the American economy. In order to counter China , we need to make sure that our population increases as well.
    Demographic change is inevitable. People like me who are of White European descent are going to become a minority,an absolute minority by late 2030s. We should not stop it, nor we should want it to stop.
    Europe has already started receiving it's fair share of African migrants and we should embrace the fact that Europe will become a land of "Mixed Race and Migrant inhabitants".
    Embracing all this won't be that hard. I was born in 1956, all three of my children are married to a person of color and my beautiful, brown grandchildren are the perfect representative of the future of this country.
    I am a proud American and America doesn't mean European Americans only. We have enough room for a billion people.

    We have enough room for a billion people

    All we have to do is make a few more rivers to irrigate the crops to feed them.

    Where the River Runs Dry … The Colorado and America’s water crisis.

    So much water is diverted from the river as it winds through the Southwest that, since the early nineteen-sixties, it has seldom flowed all the way to its natural outlet, … and since the late nineteen-nineties it has made it there only once.

    The Great Plains’ Looming Water Crisis

    Depletion of a giant aquifer threatens vital U.S. farmland

    • Replies: @ben tillman
    Of all things, it was water that finally got my anti-immigration perspective some traction with my wife.
  118. Anon[337] • Disclaimer says:

    The voting backbone of the Democrats right now are old, white baby boomers who still think it’s the 1960s and 70s. They are beginning to slowly die off. Once they’re gone, the backbone of the Dems will be gone. The problem, blacks and Hispanics have a notoriously low turnout rate on voting day. But you know what? So do white millennials. Only 46% of them bothered to vote in 2012. Once the white boomers die off and the remaining white millennials who bother to vote realize they’re being screwed by all these illegals and minorities, the Democratic party will begin to break up. I don’t think the Democrats will be a viable party in by the next generation.

  119. @J.Ross
    Third listed has to come first for the other two to be possible.

    Indeed so, I acknowledge that and others have made the same point. It just sounded better.

  120. @Whiskey
    Their plan as far as I can figure they have not thought this out much is:

    A. Military and cops flooded with non White leaders check.
    B. Allow Black and Central American gangs in both as they mistakenly think combat is low iq. See the youtube video on McNamara s morons in Vietnam in how that worked out.
    C. Nuke gun owners and Nebraska.
    D. Replace White leaders with Harold and Kumar. Check.
    E. Google and Amazon and Facebook fit every White dude with an electronic tracking device to force work on pain of no food since every thing will be paid in crypto currency controlled by them. The canceling of bank accounts by bad thinkers is a proof of concept.

    I do think with Trump removed that the military will obey and implement an anti White purge or kulak removal. Certainly the cops are 100% anti fa.

    No arrests of the anti fa nut pals. The one who shot up ICE.

    Non Whites third world elites like Saikat Chakrabarti are eager to get in on the action. The Chinese will back their play.

    Their plan has holes. Without White mechanics and pilots even drones will fail. Harold and Kumar no help there. Nuking Nebraska and West Virginia will be less effective than they think and invite reprisals. Gang members lack discipline and are as likely to loot and burn Malibu as Temecula and lack discipline for long brutal fighting. Much less marching.

    Without a willing White workforce much of the infrastructure goes away rapidly and permanently.

    I think they deny these plan failings in search of both utopia and all the stuff they can take from us not to mention power.

    They’ll have to move Strategic Air Command and other bases out of Nebraska first. West Virginia is a wholly owned subsidiary of Rockefeller industries. Reason it’s the poorest state is low Rockefeller wages. Reason it has such poor infrastructure is that the Rockefeller businesses don’t pay taxes. Rockefeller industries won’t let the liberals destroy their low paid work force and industries

    Liberals don’t want to enslave White men. Liberals wantWhite men dead because they know even enslaved White men will rebel.

  121. @istevefan

    Slavery of White men is the only way to pay for it.
     
    How can you enslave 100 million White men who are the most the heavily armed group of civilians in the world?

    Don’t bring a hunting rifle to a tank battle.

    • Replies: @Jack Hanson
    Yeah the Afghanis and Iraqis did that and look how they got steamrolled.

    You meant to say "don't bring a tank to a guerilla war".

  122. @Oddsbodkins
    It's a really bad sign when the rest of the media has gone so nuts that Mother Jones looks sensible.

    Mother Jones was great up until – – -? 1995? Ca.

    One of the more popular magazines in Germany Der Stern — left wing, usually, has – – – all of a sudden, I must say, a lengthy and quite correct story about Rotherham, this week. – Maybe somethings’s happening here. Social Democrat Mette Frederiksen got elected president in Denmark not long ago with a distinctly immigration-critical agenda – and there’s not only Italy’s Big Man Matteo Salvini, but Kurz in Austria too, who supports Salvinis immigration-critical politcs, and there is Victor Orban and – there is Prime Minister Sanchez in Spain, who is very restrictive towards open borders. Not to forget Norway and Poland!

    We’ll see.

  123. @Cloudbuster
    What it is ain't exactly clear...

    https://youtu.be/xa8T4uavjgI

    Cool & – touchy. Thanks.

  124. Slavery can be virtual. China’s social credit system. Outlaw cash. Facebook virtual currency only. Can’t buy food if deplorables.

    And big companies assigned virtual ownership of deplorables. You gig for food or else starve. While illegals get free food.

    Think of the ninos.

  125. @Reg Cæsar

    "Are Democrats Now the Party of Open Borders?"
     


    364 days from today we can test this out in Milwaukee. The party, led by someone named Solomonese from the Human Rights Campaign, will be holding their convention in something called, appropriately, the Fistserv Forum.


    https://newscdn.weigelbroadcasting.com/xQLj9-1540395962-121695-blog-BucksArena.jpg


    Built in 1988, the Bradley Center was the oldest unrenovated arena in the NBA, so it had to go. The taxpayers got Fistserved, alright.


    We simply pull a Woodstock on them. Crash the party.


    How To Get Tickets To The Democratic National Convention In 2020


    https://news.images.itv.com/image/file/505354/stream_img.jpg

    One of the reasons Scott Walker lost his re-election bid.

    Walker gave $250 million of state money to the Fiserv center. How did he pay for it? He took away $250 million from state funding for the University of Wisconsin.

    The Pottawatomie Tribe has a casino in Milwaukee. Another tribe wanted to open a casino nearby. The Pottawatomie Tribe was not happy, and asked Governor Walker to stop the new casino.

    The other tribe offered to give $250 million from the casino profits to the U of Wisconsin to make up for the lost revenue.

    At the time Walker made the decision:
    A. Walker was running for president.
    B. Walker was trying to money from Sheldon Aldelson
    C. Sheldon Aldelson runs casinos in Vegas, and doesn’t appreciate the competition.

    As could be predicted, Walker denied the other tribe a casino.

    So,

    Winners:
    Aldelson
    Milwaukee Bucks
    Pottawatomie Tribe

    Losers:
    Wisconsin Taxpayers
    U of Wisconsin students, parents, faculty and staff
    The GOP after the next election (Note I did not include Walker as a loser. He is making far more money now. Politicians who toe the corporate line get rich after they leave office)

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    I'm not a casino guy, except for the meals, but if I'm in southern Wisconsin, I'll skip the Pottawatomie. Because it's even more fun to say "Ho Chunk".


    The winners from the Miller Park deal included Green Bay-- which got the Packers full-time for the first time in 60 years.

  126. @Thea
    If we can’t win hearts and minds, being heavily armed is irrelevant. White liberal women are sadly our Achilles heel.

    There are solutions:

    The Trump solution: marry a woman from Eastern Europe. It worked so well for Trump he did it twice!

    The Derbyshire solution: marry a woman from East Asia. True, the kids will be half Asian, but if they grow up among white folks, they will be culturally more white than Asian. The offspring, esp. the female offspring, are considered attractive, so there is a good chance of at least some 75% white grandchildren.

    Variations on the theme: some men who don’t have great jobs have gotten Filipina or Thai women. Some men prefer the “jungle Asians” anyway. Or, there is the Jeb Bush solution. Marry a Latina.

    The take-it-or-leave-it solution: about 3/5 of the young college graduates these days are female. Young, white college educated men with a good job are a hot commodity these days. Plenty of white, Asian and Latina women looking for the relatively rare men. At some point the choice will be a man of whatever political beliefs, or no man at all.

    And yes, marrying a woman from a different political party can work. My wife is a Republican, I am a Democrat. Some liberals ask how I can stand to be around Trump voters. Well, I grew up in the South with some extremely conservative relatives. You deal with family and friends even if you disagree with their political views.

    • Replies: @L Woods

    Young, white college educated men with a good job are a hot commodity these days. Plenty of white, Asian and Latina women looking for the relatively rare men.
     
    Widespread myth. These women couldn’t care less about education and “good jobs” until they’re used up themselves. As for the rest: it probably won’t be much longer until my pairing with a so-called power differential in favor of the man will be illegal.
    , @Kronos
    I’m curious, do you know who your wife voted for in the 1992 election?
    , @peterike

    And yes, marrying a woman from a different political party can work. My wife is a Republican, I am a Democrat.

     

    Please explain, if you can, how somebody like yourself who hangs around a lot at iSteve can still think of himself as a Liberal and a Democrat. Are you, like most Liberals, purely driven by emotions? Do you have some illogical but stubborn attachment to an older identity that's no longer really you? Or are you just not that bright?

    I really don't get it.
  127. @prime noticer
    "How can you enslave 100 million White men who are the most the heavily armed group of civilians in the world?"

    if they won't do anything in response, how will they not be slaves?

    i already have a term for them. mules. i've posted about it on here before. i've thought long and hard about this.

    if european men do not resist, they will become mules. a resource to allocate for the other groups. they will have zero interests of their own, and their productive output will be assigned to help the other groups grow and prosper.

    european men will be expected to do all the work, pay all the taxes, grow all the food, build all the infrastructure, solve all the problems, develop all the medicine, and fight all the wars. in exchange they will be verbally, physically, and legally harassed every day in a country where they are outnumbered and hated.

    they also will not be allowed to leave, or separate. how could they be allowed to do that? the other groups are parasites on them. they can't allow the host to leave.

    south africa is a GREAT place to start learning about if you want to know the future of the United States. because that's the likely future for european men in the United States. i don't see anybody resisting so far. internet rightists who hate Trump and post every day about how they can't wait for him to be out of office, have no idea what they are hoping and asking for. these keyboard warriors aren't going to do a single thing once the next democrat comes into office and starts the process of directly destroying them.

    and there won't be any countries to run away to either. USA is it. when it falls, the entire west goes.

    Yes, I do wonder how much longer it will be until white flight (both within and, especially, outside of the country) is rendered illegal. Already, you’re haunted by the long arm of imperial writ should you choose to expatriate.

  128. @istevefan

    Slavery of White men is the only way to pay for it.
     
    How can you enslave 100 million White men who are the most the heavily armed group of civilians in the world?

    How can you enslave 100 million White men who are the most the heavily armed group of civilians in the world?

    By hijacking the societal nervous system.

  129. @Paleo Liberal
    There are solutions:

    The Trump solution: marry a woman from Eastern Europe. It worked so well for Trump he did it twice!

    The Derbyshire solution: marry a woman from East Asia. True, the kids will be half Asian, but if they grow up among white folks, they will be culturally more white than Asian. The offspring, esp. the female offspring, are considered attractive, so there is a good chance of at least some 75% white grandchildren.

    Variations on the theme: some men who don't have great jobs have gotten Filipina or Thai women. Some men prefer the "jungle Asians" anyway. Or, there is the Jeb Bush solution. Marry a Latina.

    The take-it-or-leave-it solution: about 3/5 of the young college graduates these days are female. Young, white college educated men with a good job are a hot commodity these days. Plenty of white, Asian and Latina women looking for the relatively rare men. At some point the choice will be a man of whatever political beliefs, or no man at all.

    And yes, marrying a woman from a different political party can work. My wife is a Republican, I am a Democrat. Some liberals ask how I can stand to be around Trump voters. Well, I grew up in the South with some extremely conservative relatives. You deal with family and friends even if you disagree with their political views.

    Young, white college educated men with a good job are a hot commodity these days. Plenty of white, Asian and Latina women looking for the relatively rare men.

    Widespread myth. These women couldn’t care less about education and “good jobs” until they’re used up themselves. As for the rest: it probably won’t be much longer until my pairing with a so-called power differential in favor of the man will be illegal.

    • Replies: @L Woods
    Meant to say, any pairing.
  130. @L Woods

    Young, white college educated men with a good job are a hot commodity these days. Plenty of white, Asian and Latina women looking for the relatively rare men.
     
    Widespread myth. These women couldn’t care less about education and “good jobs” until they’re used up themselves. As for the rest: it probably won’t be much longer until my pairing with a so-called power differential in favor of the man will be illegal.

    Meant to say, any pairing.

  131. @Thea
    If we can’t win hearts and minds, being heavily armed is irrelevant. White liberal women are sadly our Achilles heel.

    They always are. The eternal fifth columnist.

  132. @istevefan

    Slavery of White men is the only way to pay for it.
     
    How can you enslave 100 million White men who are the most the heavily armed group of civilians in the world?

    How can you enslave 100 million White men who are the most the heavily armed group of civilians in the world?

    By inverting the societal immune system so that those who act to protect society are attacked as evil.

  133. @Danny Govardhan Nimboda Belgaum
    Open borders are the need of the hour.
    Having been to many countries in Asia and Africa, I feel that a lot of immigration potential is present in those regions and they can significantly increase the size of the American economy. In order to counter China , we need to make sure that our population increases as well.
    Demographic change is inevitable. People like me who are of White European descent are going to become a minority,an absolute minority by late 2030s. We should not stop it, nor we should want it to stop.
    Europe has already started receiving it's fair share of African migrants and we should embrace the fact that Europe will become a land of "Mixed Race and Migrant inhabitants".
    Embracing all this won't be that hard. I was born in 1956, all three of my children are married to a person of color and my beautiful, brown grandchildren are the perfect representative of the future of this country.
    I am a proud American and America doesn't mean European Americans only. We have enough room for a billion people.

    You forgot to write “refute me if you can”.

  134. @Lurker
    I took DGNB's comment to be ironic .

    Embracing all this won’t be that hard. I was born in 1956, all three of my children are married to a person of color and my beautiful, brown grandchildren are the perfect representative of the future of this country.

    You may well be right. On a second reading this particular passage seems to have jumped the shark.

    Sometimes you have to dial it back to maintain a realistic, believable narrative.

  135. @istevefan

    Are Democrats Now the Party of Open Borders?
     
    Both parties support open borders.

    People seem think that open borders has to mean a fully open border like a water faucet that is fully open. But not having any plans to reduce or eliminate a yearly intake of 1 to 2 million, year after year, is akin to having a faucet partially open with no plans to ever turn it off. It might take longer to flood the space with water, but if the partially closed faucet is never to be turned off, you essentially have a fully open one.

    Likewise, if the number of immigrants we have been taking for the past half century continues at its current clip, then effectively we have open borders. It might take longer to demographically transform the nation with a limit of 1 to 2 million people per year. But as the past half century has shown, it will happen.

    And since both parties have no plans or intentions on reducing this yearly intake, both parties essentially support open borders.

    Right. It’s unlimited or infinite immigration, which has the same effect as “open borders”.

  136. @Charles Pewitt
    US Senator John McCain pushed open borders mass legal immigration and amnesty for illegal alien invaders.

    I disagreed very strongly with McCain on immigration, trade, foreign policy and American national identity, but I'll say in McCain's favor that he loved the rhetorical combat of presidential primary townhall events and he gave every person the chance to have their say to him.

    I had the opportunity to confront US Senator John McCain on his support for open borders mass immigration at a presidential primary townhall event in 2007 in New Hampshire.

    Tweet from 2015:

    https://twitter.com/CharlesPewitt/status/570313714894802945

    Good work.

    You’re on point like 10 years before anybody was even talking about this stuff. Do you still go to any politicians’ events?

  137. @trelane
    Open borders in a welfare state, what would that be like?

    Bankruptcy.

  138. @Oddsbodkins
    It's a really bad sign when the rest of the media has gone so nuts that Mother Jones looks sensible.

    What Left leaning magazines do you believe to be the LEAST Woke? This might be the start of a great list.

  139. @Hail
    Plug "open borders are the need of the hour" into the political-commentary bot and get:

    Open borders are the need of the hour.

    Immigration is a necessary issue. But it isn't the only one. A better model of immigration policy is to focus not on people or places but on those ideas that unite us and those who seek solutions that will reduce risk.

    We have to move from our national focus on immigration to focus not on nation but on values.

    If Trump wants to make America safe again, he'll start by getting out of the way.
     
    Remarkable for how fluffy this yet plausible that is. A cleaner, copy-edited version of the above could easily be published by an anti-MAGA conservative outlet.

    Reads exactly like a Thomas Friedman column in the NYT.

  140. @Almost Missouri
    Interesting chart.

    As I understand it, the columns at the bottom are the pseudo-"asylum-seekers" that Merkel foolishly took in. At the chart's scaling, they don't appear to be so significant.

    The next line above the columns is the unemployed. That's probably the native unemployed only. Why that number should jump and stay up ever since the arrival of the invaders is not clear. Maybe a few of the invaders displaced native workers.

    The top, steep line, which sets the scale for the entire chart, is something like "those entitled to benefits". As you can see, those little monthly columns at the bottom of the chart really add up to a cumulative and permanent increase of about 600% here.

    So Germany provides a near laboratory-like case study for "what would open borders in a welfare state be like?" Answer: increased(!) unemployment for native workers, and a massive increase in useless eaters sucking at the national welfare teat.

    increased(!) unemployment for native workers

    Here’s how that works:
    a) Given a population with the usually assumed distribution of IQ (Normal, mean=100,standard deviation 15), about 28% will have an IQ between 80 and 95 (!!!). About 16% have a below 85 IQ, and about 9.1% and IQ of less than 80.

    European descended
    Mean IQ 100, std. dev. 15
    80<IQ<95 IQ<85 IQ<80
    28% 16% 9.1^%

    African
    Mean IQ 65, std. dev. 12
    80<IQ<95 IQ<85 IQ<80
    9.9% 99% 89%

    So: About 28% of the European descended working population has an IQ in the 80 to 95 range.
    But, even for an IQ 65 population, one in ten is in the same IQ range as the European descended population. Further, generally they have lower genetic load than the corresponding European descended population.

    In other words, about a tenth of the IQ 65 immigrant group will be able to displace European descended people from the workforce, and will presumably do so because of legal requirements.

    Note that people with IQ<80 generally cannot work productively in an industrial society, although they cause safety hazards. That means a permanent welfare load of about 9%, 1 in 11, for any European descended population, but an 89% permanent welfare load for the IQ 65 group.

    Counterinsurgency

    • Replies: @Hail

    people with IQ<80 generally cannot work productively in an industrial society
     
    The post-Vietnam US military instituted an IQ83 cutoff, suggesting the "permanent welfare load" population share of low-IQ populations may be even higher than assumed.

    Some have recently suggested a population mean (or working-age pop. mean) of IQ97 as the threshold for "successful, sustainable modern society." For a society to tip below IQ97, absent some kind of apartheid system you are looking at inevitable failure, sooner or later. (This could also apply, presumably, on the local level, as in "brain drained" regions of a country that, nationally, are still on the positive side of the IQ97 threshold.)

    The USA is, today, close to tipping below IQ97.

  141. @Diversity is Great!
    OFF TOPIC

    from Harvard Business Review
    hbr.org
    Does Diversity Training Work the Way It’s Supposed To?

    Edward H. Chang, Katherine L. Milkman, Laura J. Zarrow, Kasandra Brabaw, Dena M. Gromet, Reb Rebele, Cade Massey, Angela L. Duckworth, Adam Grant

    JULY 09, 2019

    Virtually all Fortune 500 companies offer diversity training to their employees. Yet surprisingly few of them have measured its impact. That’s unfortunate, considering evidence has shown that diversity training can backfire, eliciting defensiveness from the very people who might benefit most. And even when the training is beneficial, the effects may not last after the program ends.

    This made us curious: What would happen if we created a training program and rigorously tested its effects? If we used the most relevant scientific findings on behavior change to design an intervention for increasing diversity and inclusion in the workplace, could we change employee attitudes? Could we prompt more inclusive behavior? If so, would those changes stick?
     

    What did we find? Let’s start with the good news. The bias-focused trainings had a positive effect on the attitudes of one important group: employees who we believe were the least supportive of women prior to training. We found that after completing training, these employees were more likely to acknowledge discrimination against women, express support for policies designed to help women, and acknowledge their own racial and gender biases, compared to similar employees in the control group.
     

    But did the training change behavior?

    This brings us to the bad news. We found very little evidence that diversity training affected the behavior of men or white employees overall—the two groups who typically hold the most power in organizations and are often the primary targets of these interventions.

    Our data contained two interesting surprises, however. The first was that the single largest behavioral effect generated by the training was on the behavior of women in the company’s U.S. offices.

    Three weeks after the training was complete, we asked the organization to email employees about a new initiative. The email asked employees to nominate up to five coworkers they would like to meet for a casual coffee chat to help create a more inclusive culture. Our goal was to measure whether employees would be more willing to provide informal mentorship to women and people of color after undergoing the diversity training.
     

    We hope that organizations will bring their own curiosity and creativity to bear on the new questions that emerged from our study. There’s plenty left to learn about how to create a diverse and inclusive workplace.
     
    :)

    That’s unfortunate, considering evidence has shown that diversity training can backfire, eliciting defensiveness

    The more people know about “diversity,” the less they like it. That’s just science.

    • Agree: ben tillman
  142. @Peter Akuleyev
    This is pretty much right. The Democrats are not as extreme in real life as they play on TV and the Republicans are not as strict. It is all theater trying to grab the marginal vote here and there, but the general consensus has not really changed, despite Trump. The elite still wants immigration.

    There was an interesting article in a Polish newspaper today about serfdom, and how prior to the 1830s, the Polish aristocracy didn't really see peasants as human beings at all. They were basically another form of livestock, but harder to manage. It was only when outside powers started destroying the Polish aristocracy that the Szlachty realized that they and the peasants were actually part of one nation, and needed to work together. I see a lot of parallels in that to the current US situation. Our business elites, including Trump, also don't really care about their workers as human beings, and they are all interchangeable. All things being equal, it is better for the bottom line to hire a docile Latino or an Indian you can threaten by pulling his visa. And better to keep the American worker stupid and uninformed. Unfortunately the Polish elite learned their lesson only after it was too late to save Poland. It took some luck and a destructive war between foreign elites to create a window for Poland to re-emerge. The US may not be as lucky.

    This is pretty much right. The Democrats are not as extreme in real life as they play on TV and the Republicans are not as strict. It is all theater trying to grab the marginal vote here and there, but the general consensus has not really changed, despite Trump. The elite still wants immigration.

    Yep. That’s the crucial problem right there: it’s all a lie. That’s what brought down the USSR: nobody believed anything, theft was endemic, money allocated by the central planners was re-allocated by descending layer of “bosses” as it moved down the bureaucratic chain, until its actual use had nothing to do with the planner’s intended use, nothing could change, and the system was maintained by petty brutality. The USSR had “minority groups” also. We have Democrat/fanatics and Republican/greedy empty suits; they had Stalinist communists and nomenclatura/bureaucratic Communists. The system proved unstable.

    Counterinsurgency

  143. @Paleo Liberal
    I am a few months younger than Steve.

    It is amazing how quickly things have changed in my lifetime.

    50 years ago, the Democratic Party was still the party of the working man, although that was starting to change. As amazingly corrupt as HHH was, he had very strong Union support. Well, considering how amazingly corrupt the unions were, maybe that wasn't surprising.

    Effectively, LBJ was the one who started the rift between working class whites and the better educated liberals. Part of it was his stand on civil rights; perhaps most of it was the Vietnam War. While working class people of all races were most likely to wind up in Vietnam, most of the protesters were middle to upper-class college students, often with long hair and a disheveled appearance. The blue collar workers didn't take kindly to the hippies and hippy wannabees protesting the war.

    Also, the drain on the economy of the combination of the Great Society and the Vietnam War was enormous. The stagnation and inflation of the 1970s was outrageous.

    In all, LBJ turned a massive Democratic majority into a party that couldn't win again until Clinton, except for Carter, who barely beat a weak Gerald Ford in the aftermath of Watergate.

    I am a well-educated liberal, with a Ph.D. in the hard sciences. But I greatly yearn for the days when there was a political party that cared about working people. I have been doing computer programming for about 20 years. During that time, wages have stagnated while housing costs have skyrocketed in those cities with a lot of programmers. A programmer could live very well 20 years ago. Now, not so much.

    What well-educated liberals forget is that when there is no party to look after working people, the college educated working people get screwed as well. It is rough to have had one job move overseas, and other job lost to an H1-B visa holder. It is tough to only be able to get contracting jobs, with the rates being what was market rate 20 years ago when prices were a lot cheaper.

    Cattle can die from tick infestation.

    Counterinsurgency

  144. @Paleo Liberal
    There are two differences between slaves/serfs and people with wages.

    On one hand, people with wages are free to get a job somewhere else.

    On the other hand, slaves/serfs have to be provided food, clothing and shelter.

    When capitalism works best (often with unions, except the unions sometimes get very corrupt) the workers have a lifetime job and the freedom to find a better job if they wish; they have enough money for their basic necessities, and enough money for some free time and eventual retirement.

    When capitalism is at its worst the workers have temporary and/or part-time jobs or even no job at all, no security, and often not enough money to cover food, clothing and shelter. This is the case for far too many workers.

    Eve worse, now we have a situation in which the workers have to pay for their own training. Workers often take out massive student loans at colleges or trade schools. Many of these are complete scams, and in many cases the workers get the debts but not the training. Once trained, they have to pay exorbitant interest rates for the chance of maybe getting a job, or maybe not.

    After all that, with massive student loans to cover in addition to the basic necessities, the workers often have to compete with immigrants (legal or otherwise) or H1-B visa workers who drive the wages down and housing prices up.

    Well, strictly speaking the peasants were provided with land and the right to chattels and produced their own food and that of the local landlord as well, but your basic point is certainly correct:
    from one viewpoint, the entire medieval / dark ages system was an attempt to preserve the serfs, since without them everybody died. Workers today are considered expendable by a not very bright [1] ruling elite.

    Counterinsurgency

    1] “not very bright”. That’s literal. I’ve worked with them quite a bit. Like the Communists of the late Soviet government, the only thing keeping them in affluence is the system they fight to defend.

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    Some very valid points.

    The Powers That Be want disposable workers. We constantly import cheap labor from Latin America or Asia to replace the working class and what used to be the upper middle class.

    The corporations don't have to care if their workers can afford decent housing, or even housing within a 2 hour commute. (A friend of mine takes the Google Bus 2 hours each way every day).

    When someone cheaper comes along, dump the worker. Let the taxpayers take care of him/her with welfare state benefits. Opiods and illegal drugs are a great way to dispose of unwanted workers.
  145. Anon[304] • Disclaimer says:

    OT: The House just voted down the attempt to impeach Trump 332-95. All this is going to do is make the militant left enraged with the centrists in their own party, and they’ll make war on their own side. The centrist Democrats are going to be forced to fight and defeat their own left wing. I foresee a big purge coming. The centrists are terrified of losing the Democratic majority in the House, so they have to backstab their own lefttards to keep it.

    Popcorn time!

  146. @Paleo Liberal
    One of the reasons Scott Walker lost his re-election bid.

    Walker gave $250 million of state money to the Fiserv center. How did he pay for it? He took away $250 million from state funding for the University of Wisconsin.

    The Pottawatomie Tribe has a casino in Milwaukee. Another tribe wanted to open a casino nearby. The Pottawatomie Tribe was not happy, and asked Governor Walker to stop the new casino.

    The other tribe offered to give $250 million from the casino profits to the U of Wisconsin to make up for the lost revenue.

    At the time Walker made the decision:
    A. Walker was running for president.
    B. Walker was trying to money from Sheldon Aldelson
    C. Sheldon Aldelson runs casinos in Vegas, and doesn't appreciate the competition.

    As could be predicted, Walker denied the other tribe a casino.

    So,

    Winners:
    Aldelson
    Milwaukee Bucks
    Pottawatomie Tribe

    Losers:
    Wisconsin Taxpayers
    U of Wisconsin students, parents, faculty and staff
    The GOP after the next election (Note I did not include Walker as a loser. He is making far more money now. Politicians who toe the corporate line get rich after they leave office)

    I’m not a casino guy, except for the meals, but if I’m in southern Wisconsin, I’ll skip the Pottawatomie. Because it’s even more fun to say “Ho Chunk”.

    The winners from the Miller Park deal included Green Bay– which got the Packers full-time for the first time in 60 years.

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    The Packers used to play 2 games a year in Milwaukee.

    Part of the deal is now there are three types of season ticket packages (none of which you can actually get, but these are all grandfathered in)

    1. Full season (8 games plus the 2 home pre-season games)
    2. The old Green Bay season (I think this is the Green package, but I could be wrong). 6 home games. I don't know how many pre-season games.
    3. The old Milwaukee season (I think this is the Gold package, but I could be wrong). 2 home games, I don't know how many pre-season games.

    For the 2 games a year in the old Milwaukee package, the traffic on game day between Milwaukee and Green Bay is horrendous.
  147. @Whiskey
    Their plan as far as I can figure they have not thought this out much is:

    A. Military and cops flooded with non White leaders check.
    B. Allow Black and Central American gangs in both as they mistakenly think combat is low iq. See the youtube video on McNamara s morons in Vietnam in how that worked out.
    C. Nuke gun owners and Nebraska.
    D. Replace White leaders with Harold and Kumar. Check.
    E. Google and Amazon and Facebook fit every White dude with an electronic tracking device to force work on pain of no food since every thing will be paid in crypto currency controlled by them. The canceling of bank accounts by bad thinkers is a proof of concept.

    I do think with Trump removed that the military will obey and implement an anti White purge or kulak removal. Certainly the cops are 100% anti fa.

    No arrests of the anti fa nut pals. The one who shot up ICE.

    Non Whites third world elites like Saikat Chakrabarti are eager to get in on the action. The Chinese will back their play.

    Their plan has holes. Without White mechanics and pilots even drones will fail. Harold and Kumar no help there. Nuking Nebraska and West Virginia will be less effective than they think and invite reprisals. Gang members lack discipline and are as likely to loot and burn Malibu as Temecula and lack discipline for long brutal fighting. Much less marching.

    Without a willing White workforce much of the infrastructure goes away rapidly and permanently.

    I think they deny these plan failings in search of both utopia and all the stuff they can take from us not to mention power.

    I suspect War is generally preceded by optimistic forecasts of probable outcomes, followed by sharply negative return on actuals.

  148. @Daniel H
    Now? They were always the party of open borders. They just couldn’t get away with it 20 years ago.

    No. 50 years ago when the Democrats were comprised of white proles they looked out for the interest of the proles. But the Democrats started alienating white proles as far back as 1968. It's the Republicans and their uber Capital ideology who have always advocated open borders, and they still do. They are chortling with glee watching the Democrats twist themselves insane over this issue, but if they get power they will quietly and determinedly do what the Democrats are threatening. The Cucks are a greater danger.

    They are chortling with glee watching the Democrats twist themselves insane over this issue, but if they get power they will quietly and determinedly do what the Democrats are threatening. The Cucks are a greater danger.

    We have one party, the Democrats, that are explicitly advocating open borders and free health care for illegal aliens. There is no significant pushback from the Democrat base, and all the Democrat enthusiasm, momentum and focus is on unlimited illegal immigration.

    The other party, the Republicans, have a base opposed to illegal immigration, some congressional members opposing illegal immigration, and a President actually taking measures to decrease immigration.

    And you think the greater threat is from the Republicans. Really?

  149. @Paleo Liberal
    There are solutions:

    The Trump solution: marry a woman from Eastern Europe. It worked so well for Trump he did it twice!

    The Derbyshire solution: marry a woman from East Asia. True, the kids will be half Asian, but if they grow up among white folks, they will be culturally more white than Asian. The offspring, esp. the female offspring, are considered attractive, so there is a good chance of at least some 75% white grandchildren.

    Variations on the theme: some men who don't have great jobs have gotten Filipina or Thai women. Some men prefer the "jungle Asians" anyway. Or, there is the Jeb Bush solution. Marry a Latina.

    The take-it-or-leave-it solution: about 3/5 of the young college graduates these days are female. Young, white college educated men with a good job are a hot commodity these days. Plenty of white, Asian and Latina women looking for the relatively rare men. At some point the choice will be a man of whatever political beliefs, or no man at all.

    And yes, marrying a woman from a different political party can work. My wife is a Republican, I am a Democrat. Some liberals ask how I can stand to be around Trump voters. Well, I grew up in the South with some extremely conservative relatives. You deal with family and friends even if you disagree with their political views.

    I’m curious, do you know who your wife voted for in the 1992 election?

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    She says she voted for Ross Perot. She despises the entire Bush family.

    Her family immigrated to the US in 1980, and they really liked Reagan. They also greatly preferred Guilliani to Dinkins. (Dinkins was such a bad mayor even I voted for Guilinani in 1993).

    These days she has been voted more for Democrats. This is more of a comment on the sad state of the GOP these days. She made a comment to our kids once that if she didn't have any kids she would vote Republican, but since she has kids she votes for the Democrats. Maybe that has something to do with the way the Wisconsin Republicans have been cutting funding for education recently. In the old days, both Democrats and Republicans in Wisconsin agreed to fund education and roads. Cutting funding for education and roads probably lost the last gubernatorial election for Scott Walker. People up here like having good schools. That is why the current governor is a former school teacher whose last position was superintendent of the schools for the entire state.
  150. @Paul
    Hoaxahontas Warren and her ilk see illegal aliens as a future source of votes and cheap household labor.

    That’s a good summary. You could improve it by deleting the word ‘future’.

  151. Hail says: • Website
    @Counterinsurgency

    increased(!) unemployment for native workers
     
    Here's how that works:
    a) Given a population with the usually assumed distribution of IQ (Normal, mean=100,standard deviation 15), about 28% will have an IQ between 80 and 95 (!!!). About 16% have a below 85 IQ, and about 9.1% and IQ of less than 80.

    European descended
    Mean IQ 100, std. dev. 15
    80<IQ<95 IQ<85 IQ<80
    28% 16% 9.1^%

    African
    Mean IQ 65, std. dev. 12
    80<IQ<95 IQ<85 IQ<80
    9.9% 99% 89%

    So: About 28% of the European descended working population has an IQ in the 80 to 95 range.
    But, even for an IQ 65 population, one in ten is in the same IQ range as the European descended population. Further, generally they have lower genetic load than the corresponding European descended population.

    In other words, about a tenth of the IQ 65 immigrant group will be able to displace European descended people from the workforce, and will presumably do so because of legal requirements.

    Note that people with IQ<80 generally cannot work productively in an industrial society, although they cause safety hazards. That means a permanent welfare load of about 9%, 1 in 11, for any European descended population, but an 89% permanent welfare load for the IQ 65 group.

    Counterinsurgency

    people with IQ<80 generally cannot work productively in an industrial society

    The post-Vietnam US military instituted an IQ83 cutoff, suggesting the “permanent welfare load” population share of low-IQ populations may be even higher than assumed.

    Some have recently suggested a population mean (or working-age pop. mean) of IQ97 as the threshold for “successful, sustainable modern society.” For a society to tip below IQ97, absent some kind of apartheid system you are looking at inevitable failure, sooner or later. (This could also apply, presumably, on the local level, as in “brain drained” regions of a country that, nationally, are still on the positive side of the IQ97 threshold.)

    The USA is, today, close to tipping below IQ97.

    • Replies: @Counterinsurgency

    The USA is, today, close to tipping below IQ97.
     
    Right you are. We're in trouble up to our neck, as has been the case _for my entire life_!!! (prior to 1990 it was the possibility of central nuclear war, then hubristic leadership, and now the IQ decline, all on a substrate of an imperial economy imposed on a disintegrating rural society and cities that were no longer economically viable). On a personal basis, there has been a metronomic thud of dead acquaintances against a background of radio songs trying to kill yet more and on a foundation of declining birth rates for every group that comes here. It just isn't very impressive, somehow. The country has been like a roach motel since WW II.


    Anyway:
    Dutton and Woodley, a couple of UK academics, have a book [1] that makes a very good case that Western IQ has been declining by about 1 point/decade since about 1850, for a decline of something like 15 points). The argument actually has what appears to be solid validation from reaction time studies taken back in the 1850s.
    Dutton and Woodley believe that this decline is due to increased genetic load from reduction of infant mortality, and hypothesize that this would be the case in most or all previous human empires. They dismiss the possibility of eugenics as a correction on the grounds that people pick what their society prizes, which in a declining society would be average cognitive ability, extroversion, sex appeal, athletic ability, etc.

    Obviously introduction of low-cognitive ability groups into the general population would exacerbate the problem.

    Counterinsurgency


    1] Edward Dutton, Woodley
    _At Our Wits' End: Why We're Becoming Less Intelligent and What it Means for the Future_
    Recent publication. Available on Amazon.
    SBN-13: 978-1845409852; ISBN-10: 184540985X.
    , @Counterinsurgency

    Some have recently suggested a population mean (or working-age pop. mean) of IQ97 as the threshold for “successful, sustainable modern society.” For a society to tip below IQ97, absent some kind of apartheid system you are looking at inevitable failure, sooner or later. (This could also apply, presumably, on the local level, as in “brain drained” regions of a country that, nationally, are still on the positive side of the IQ97 threshold.)

    The USA is, today, close to tipping below IQ97.
     
    a) South Africa suggests that apartheid is not stable in the long run.
    b) The supporters of AOC and Omar aren't very smart (people vote for representatives like themselves). AOC and Omar will make up a substantial portion (at the least) of the House as the US IQ drops, and they will see nothing wrong with looting capital, whoever holds it. Future orientation won't be high, and plausible arguments will form a thin patina on raw political power.

    Counterinsurgency
  152. @istevefan

    Slavery of White men is the only way to pay for it.
     
    How can you enslave 100 million White men who are the most the heavily armed group of civilians in the world?

    They’re already enslaved. Guns don’t guarantee freedom. Americans gave their freedom away during the Franklin Roosevelt’s administrations.

  153. @Chrisnonymous
    Stockholm Syndrome

    Stockholm syndrome? More like one of the bank robbers, or wreckers. He’s a Hindu who wants to bring in more Asians to assuage his sense of alienation in a majority-white country. “America,” as he is repeatedly told by the goodwhites, is just a proposition, not a particular people nor even a particular place. The American biome is nothing to him but a constant, grating reminder of his outsider status. How many Hindu do you ever see backpacking, hunting or fishing, or looking at old monuments or architecture? You think he gives a hoot about the place becoming the same ramshackle, filthy, termite mound as India?

    The immigrant always wants more immigrants–his sense of grievance and resentment of his hosts defines him. We need a full, two-generation moratorium. We won’t get it, so it will all end in tears.

    • Agree: Hail
    • Replies: @Hail
    Brutal comment.

    Hereby nominated for an honorary Gold Box.
  154. @Pericles
    The main problem is they have guns but lack balls. So it's like they don't have guns at all.

    He who controls the police and the military controls the country, balls and muskets don’t count.

    • Replies: @Pericles
    Plenty of examples from modern history shows you don't even need guns. But some balls still seem to be required.
  155. @Whiskey
    Their plan as far as I can figure they have not thought this out much is:

    A. Military and cops flooded with non White leaders check.
    B. Allow Black and Central American gangs in both as they mistakenly think combat is low iq. See the youtube video on McNamara s morons in Vietnam in how that worked out.
    C. Nuke gun owners and Nebraska.
    D. Replace White leaders with Harold and Kumar. Check.
    E. Google and Amazon and Facebook fit every White dude with an electronic tracking device to force work on pain of no food since every thing will be paid in crypto currency controlled by them. The canceling of bank accounts by bad thinkers is a proof of concept.

    I do think with Trump removed that the military will obey and implement an anti White purge or kulak removal. Certainly the cops are 100% anti fa.

    No arrests of the anti fa nut pals. The one who shot up ICE.

    Non Whites third world elites like Saikat Chakrabarti are eager to get in on the action. The Chinese will back their play.

    Their plan has holes. Without White mechanics and pilots even drones will fail. Harold and Kumar no help there. Nuking Nebraska and West Virginia will be less effective than they think and invite reprisals. Gang members lack discipline and are as likely to loot and burn Malibu as Temecula and lack discipline for long brutal fighting. Much less marching.

    Without a willing White workforce much of the infrastructure goes away rapidly and permanently.

    I think they deny these plan failings in search of both utopia and all the stuff they can take from us not to mention power.

    The one that shot up an ICE station, like the one that shot congressmen and various others, couldn’t be arrested because he became a shahiyd. However your point stands. Antifa does not fear arrest in cities where the mayor and police chief are supporting them on twitter, and when they are arrested they are not given worse than probation.

  156. @Daniel H
    Now? They were always the party of open borders. They just couldn’t get away with it 20 years ago.

    No. 50 years ago when the Democrats were comprised of white proles they looked out for the interest of the proles. But the Democrats started alienating white proles as far back as 1968. It's the Republicans and their uber Capital ideology who have always advocated open borders, and they still do. They are chortling with glee watching the Democrats twist themselves insane over this issue, but if they get power they will quietly and determinedly do what the Democrats are threatening. The Cucks are a greater danger.

    It’s the Republicans and their uber Capital ideology who have always advocated open borders, and they still do.

    Not true. Eisenhower had no problem deporting illegals. And most of the serious opposition to amnesty of illegal aliens in the last 15 years has come from Republicans in the House. It is true there are many Republicans who are useless on the issue (especially in the Senate) and that their backers are all for immigration.

  157. @sailor1031
    Sweden.

    After the bum rush of the Swedish border in 2015, the social democrats actually did shut the gates for a while. Well, to an extent, at least.

    Now that the goyim have settled down, their Bilderberg coalition partners (an unholy mixture of parties) seem to be crying for opening things up once more.

  158. @Hail

    people with IQ<80 generally cannot work productively in an industrial society
     
    The post-Vietnam US military instituted an IQ83 cutoff, suggesting the "permanent welfare load" population share of low-IQ populations may be even higher than assumed.

    Some have recently suggested a population mean (or working-age pop. mean) of IQ97 as the threshold for "successful, sustainable modern society." For a society to tip below IQ97, absent some kind of apartheid system you are looking at inevitable failure, sooner or later. (This could also apply, presumably, on the local level, as in "brain drained" regions of a country that, nationally, are still on the positive side of the IQ97 threshold.)

    The USA is, today, close to tipping below IQ97.

    The USA is, today, close to tipping below IQ97.

    Right you are. We’re in trouble up to our neck, as has been the case _for my entire life_!!! (prior to 1990 it was the possibility of central nuclear war, then hubristic leadership, and now the IQ decline, all on a substrate of an imperial economy imposed on a disintegrating rural society and cities that were no longer economically viable). On a personal basis, there has been a metronomic thud of dead acquaintances against a background of radio songs trying to kill yet more and on a foundation of declining birth rates for every group that comes here. It just isn’t very impressive, somehow. The country has been like a roach motel since WW II.

    Anyway:
    Dutton and Woodley, a couple of UK academics, have a book [1] that makes a very good case that Western IQ has been declining by about 1 point/decade since about 1850, for a decline of something like 15 points). The argument actually has what appears to be solid validation from reaction time studies taken back in the 1850s.
    Dutton and Woodley believe that this decline is due to increased genetic load from reduction of infant mortality, and hypothesize that this would be the case in most or all previous human empires. They dismiss the possibility of eugenics as a correction on the grounds that people pick what their society prizes, which in a declining society would be average cognitive ability, extroversion, sex appeal, athletic ability, etc.

    Obviously introduction of low-cognitive ability groups into the general population would exacerbate the problem.

    Counterinsurgency

    1] Edward Dutton, Woodley
    _At Our Wits’ End: Why We’re Becoming Less Intelligent and What it Means for the Future_
    Recent publication. Available on Amazon.
    SBN-13: 978-1845409852; ISBN-10: 184540985X.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    Is Edward Dutton related to Liam? Liam's Welsh is pretty good, whatever his IQ:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fHxO0UdpoxM
    , @Hail
    The -1.0 IQ-point/decade genotypic decline estimate may be high, but I would like to see what Dutton and Woodley have to say on the matter.

    I think Richard Lynn estimates (or endorses someone's estimate), of an avg. White genotypic IQ 'hit' (due to dysgenic fertility) of -0.33 IQ points per decade for 19th century Q2 to 21st century Q1, implying up to a 6 or 7 point IQ loss from the birth cohorts of, say, Lincoln and R.E.Lee, to those being born today. If we take the present-day White-British/US mean as 100 by definition, our ancestors two centuries ago would've been (genotypically) at 107, which is highly impressive by anyone's standard.

    (Take the above for what it's worth because I don't have any sources on hand, and this comment is from a recollection.)

    I am pretty sure that Lynn also found dysgenic fertility is significantly larger-scale among US Blacks than US Whites, implying The Gap will be widening, not closing.

  159. @Simply Simon
    He who controls the police and the military controls the country, balls and muskets don't count.

    Plenty of examples from modern history shows you don’t even need guns. But some balls still seem to be required.

  160. @Hail

    people with IQ<80 generally cannot work productively in an industrial society
     
    The post-Vietnam US military instituted an IQ83 cutoff, suggesting the "permanent welfare load" population share of low-IQ populations may be even higher than assumed.

    Some have recently suggested a population mean (or working-age pop. mean) of IQ97 as the threshold for "successful, sustainable modern society." For a society to tip below IQ97, absent some kind of apartheid system you are looking at inevitable failure, sooner or later. (This could also apply, presumably, on the local level, as in "brain drained" regions of a country that, nationally, are still on the positive side of the IQ97 threshold.)

    The USA is, today, close to tipping below IQ97.

    Some have recently suggested a population mean (or working-age pop. mean) of IQ97 as the threshold for “successful, sustainable modern society.” For a society to tip below IQ97, absent some kind of apartheid system you are looking at inevitable failure, sooner or later. (This could also apply, presumably, on the local level, as in “brain drained” regions of a country that, nationally, are still on the positive side of the IQ97 threshold.)

    The USA is, today, close to tipping below IQ97.

    a) South Africa suggests that apartheid is not stable in the long run.
    b) The supporters of AOC and Omar aren’t very smart (people vote for representatives like themselves). AOC and Omar will make up a substantial portion (at the least) of the House as the US IQ drops, and they will see nothing wrong with looting capital, whoever holds it. Future orientation won’t be high, and plausible arguments will form a thin patina on raw political power.

    Counterinsurgency

  161. @Kronos
    I’m curious, do you know who your wife voted for in the 1992 election?

    She says she voted for Ross Perot. She despises the entire Bush family.

    Her family immigrated to the US in 1980, and they really liked Reagan. They also greatly preferred Guilliani to Dinkins. (Dinkins was such a bad mayor even I voted for Guilinani in 1993).

    These days she has been voted more for Democrats. This is more of a comment on the sad state of the GOP these days. She made a comment to our kids once that if she didn’t have any kids she would vote Republican, but since she has kids she votes for the Democrats. Maybe that has something to do with the way the Wisconsin Republicans have been cutting funding for education recently. In the old days, both Democrats and Republicans in Wisconsin agreed to fund education and roads. Cutting funding for education and roads probably lost the last gubernatorial election for Scott Walker. People up here like having good schools. That is why the current governor is a former school teacher whose last position was superintendent of the schools for the entire state.

    • Replies: @peterike

    Cutting funding for education and roads probably lost the last gubernatorial election for Scott Walker. People up here like having good schools

     

    The effect of "more funding" on having "good schools" is exactly zero. In fact, it's often below zero because more funding leads to wasting money on stupid initiatives, fads and administrators that are counter-productive. The best way to improve most public schools would be to cut their budgets by 50% and tell them to figure it the hell out. Education is the most over-rated good sold in America, but people fall for the con, especially women.

    Roads, on the other hand, are important.
    , @Kronos
    The reason I asked is because I’m always interested in voting history. Trump’s territorial victories overlap very well with Ross Perot hot spots. I’m betting the Republican Party will continue down the road of Perot/Buchanan while the Democrats will go Nader/Sanders. With the Baby Boomers dying off, the parties will revert back to pre-boomer orientations. Republicans will support protectionism while Democrats support labor. When historians look back, they’ll view Baby Boomers combined with 401k/Roth plans as one of most economic disastrous policies in US history.
  162. @Hippopotamusdrome


    We have enough room for a billion people

     

    All we have to do is make a few more rivers to irrigate the crops to feed them.


    Where the River Runs Dry ... The Colorado and America’s water crisis.

    So much water is diverted from the river as it winds through the Southwest that, since the early nineteen-sixties, it has seldom flowed all the way to its natural outlet, ... and since the late nineteen-nineties it has made it there only once.

     



    The Great Plains’ Looming Water Crisis

    Depletion of a giant aquifer threatens vital U.S. farmland

     

    Of all things, it was water that finally got my anti-immigration perspective some traction with my wife.

    • Replies: @Corn
    That’s very believable. I don’t know how much water an average American uses per annum but it’s not like a “new American” brings their annual water allotment in a tank on their back when they cross the border.

    I think for immigration restrictions to gain traction on the left we need an “only Nixon can go to China” moment. It’d be nice if a prominent Democratic politician with strong environmentalist credentials would stand and tell his party “Yeah, Republicans are haters, but they’re right even if for the wrong reasons. Nature can sustain only so many Americans.”

    I don’t see any such character emerging however.
  163. @Reg Cæsar
    I'm not a casino guy, except for the meals, but if I'm in southern Wisconsin, I'll skip the Pottawatomie. Because it's even more fun to say "Ho Chunk".


    The winners from the Miller Park deal included Green Bay-- which got the Packers full-time for the first time in 60 years.

    The Packers used to play 2 games a year in Milwaukee.

    Part of the deal is now there are three types of season ticket packages (none of which you can actually get, but these are all grandfathered in)

    1. Full season (8 games plus the 2 home pre-season games)
    2. The old Green Bay season (I think this is the Green package, but I could be wrong). 6 home games. I don’t know how many pre-season games.
    3. The old Milwaukee season (I think this is the Gold package, but I could be wrong). 2 home games, I don’t know how many pre-season games.

    For the 2 games a year in the old Milwaukee package, the traffic on game day between Milwaukee and Green Bay is horrendous.

  164. @Whiskey
    Their plan as far as I can figure they have not thought this out much is:

    A. Military and cops flooded with non White leaders check.
    B. Allow Black and Central American gangs in both as they mistakenly think combat is low iq. See the youtube video on McNamara s morons in Vietnam in how that worked out.
    C. Nuke gun owners and Nebraska.
    D. Replace White leaders with Harold and Kumar. Check.
    E. Google and Amazon and Facebook fit every White dude with an electronic tracking device to force work on pain of no food since every thing will be paid in crypto currency controlled by them. The canceling of bank accounts by bad thinkers is a proof of concept.

    I do think with Trump removed that the military will obey and implement an anti White purge or kulak removal. Certainly the cops are 100% anti fa.

    No arrests of the anti fa nut pals. The one who shot up ICE.

    Non Whites third world elites like Saikat Chakrabarti are eager to get in on the action. The Chinese will back their play.

    Their plan has holes. Without White mechanics and pilots even drones will fail. Harold and Kumar no help there. Nuking Nebraska and West Virginia will be less effective than they think and invite reprisals. Gang members lack discipline and are as likely to loot and burn Malibu as Temecula and lack discipline for long brutal fighting. Much less marching.

    Without a willing White workforce much of the infrastructure goes away rapidly and permanently.

    I think they deny these plan failings in search of both utopia and all the stuff they can take from us not to mention power.

    The next generation of whites will learn the old Soviet maxim:

    “So long as the bosses pretend to pay us, we will pretend to work”.

    • Replies: @Flip
    More and more people will try to ride in the wagon than pull the wagon.
  165. The Packers used to play 2 games a year in Milwaukee.

    Didn’t it use to be three? Back in the ’60s and ’70s?

    Season tickets are a 30+-year wait, but many are held by tour bus companies, and you can get to games that way. My in-laws did this a few years back. They live about ten miles from the Minnesota border, but nobody there is interested in that state’s expansion team.

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal

    Didn’t it use to be three? Back in the ’60s and ’70s?
     
    I looked it up. It depends on the year. They played anywhere from 2-4 games a year. Sometimes that was half of the games.

    Although most of the original NFL teams were small market, within a few years it became extremely difficult for small market teams to survive. Most of the small market teams either moved to big cities, or else folded completely. The consolidations started in the mid-late 1920s.

    The Packers survived the consolidations three ways:

    1. For many years they were a really good team. From 1929-1944 they were either first or second in their division almost every year, including 6 NFL championships along the way. That helped the team survive.
    2. The two years during that stretch they were NOT 1 or 2 were 1933 and 1934. So in 1934 they started playing a lot of their games in the Milwaukee area to get the big-city fan base. (I gather Vince Lombardi kept Milwaukee from getting an AFL franchise by threatening to stop playing Packer games in Milwaukee. Instead they got an NBA franchise -- the Bucks)
    3. When the team went south, the Packers raised the money they needed to survive by selling the team to the fans as a non-profit organization. This is now illegal under NFL rules, but the Packers are grandfathered in. When the Packers need money, they go to the fans, rather than the taxpayers. Which makes the Packers the only pro team one can morally root for. :-)

    From 1934-1994, the Packers played anywhere from 1/4 to 1/2 of their games every year in or near Milwaukee (West Allis, right outside of Milwaukee, from 1934-1951).

    When Miller Park was built, it was built as a baseball-only stadium. By 1995 the Packers were one of the best teams in the NFL. They won their division behind young QB Brett Favre.

    Which brings up points 4, 5 on how the Packers survived:

    4. For the past 20+ years they have had Brett Favre and Aaron Rodgers, two of the all-time NFL great QBs, and have usually been a really good team. So the Milwaukee fans will still drive up to Green Bay to see them, and they are popular all over the country. They are one of the most popular pro sports franchises, partly because of their history and partly because they usually make the playoffs.

    5. Revenue sharing -- these days ALL the NFL teams get a large chunk of the pie. There is so much $$$$$ spread around that few franchises are ever hurting.
  166. @Prof. Woland
    Pelosi is not a free agent. She is totally beholden to the Asian, black, Hispanic caucuses who hold a veto on anything that gets out of committee. She is a marionette with a white feminist face that moves her mouth when the strings are pulled but it is the ventriloquist that you are hearing.

    In other words, "when they want her opinion, they will give her one".
     
    None of those groups has the slightest interest in lowering immigration from their respective tribes so she is unable to either negotiate with the Republicans in good faith or make a single change that would actually be effective in controlling immigration. By putting a white face on the message, she is providing cover from the radical brown mob that is taking over her party.

    She still has some leverage as the leader due to the fact that she can raise money but that money comes from white and Jewish Democratic members who are probably beginning to see the writing on the wall. Both will eventually be turfed out of the Democratic party. The recent humiliation with the Squat first calling her a racist and then her taking the floor to denounce Trump only to have the Republicans laugh in her face should be the sign that she is out of control and almost irrelevant.

    Ironically her recent scolding of Trump was aimed at fellow whites in the Republican party who while belonging to a different political tribe, still speak the same basic language and have similar cultural roots so they can understand her. This differs from the new emerging majority in her party that only understands what they want to understand which is typically hand to mouth issues.

    She still has some leverage as the leader due to the fact that she can raise money but that money comes from white and Jewish Democratic members who are probably beginning to see the writing on the wall. Both will eventually be turfed out of the Democratic party.

    Vanity Fair:

    “Chuck Schumer F–ked Us”: Progressives Rage as Democratic Tensions Erupt Over the Humanitarian Border Crisis

    Pelosi is struggling to hold her caucus together over a spending bill that progressives see as a capitulation to Trump. “We just gave them more money to continue the status quo,” said Rashida Tlaib. “I’m pissed,” said AOC.

    By Abigail Tracy
    June 28, 2019

    ******
    Others put the responsibility at the feet of their Democratic colleagues in the Senate. “Chuck Schumer fucked us,” the senior democratic aide told me. Because Senate Democrats fell in line with McConnell and overwhelmingly voted “yes” on the legislation—with seven senators absent for the 2020 debates, it passed 84 to 8—there was no way Pelosi couldn’t take up the bill for a vote, the thinking goes. “The Senate decided to hijack our bill that was sent over there, which I didn’t support, but they sent it back completely bare of any of those protections,” Tlaib told me, exasperated.

  167. @Counterinsurgency
    Well, strictly speaking the peasants were provided with land and the right to chattels and produced their own food and that of the local landlord as well, but your basic point is certainly correct:
    from one viewpoint, the entire medieval / dark ages system was an attempt to preserve the serfs, since without them everybody died. Workers today are considered expendable by a not very bright [1] ruling elite.

    Counterinsurgency

    1] "not very bright". That's literal. I've worked with them quite a bit. Like the Communists of the late Soviet government, the only thing keeping them in affluence is the system they fight to defend.

    Some very valid points.

    The Powers That Be want disposable workers. We constantly import cheap labor from Latin America or Asia to replace the working class and what used to be the upper middle class.

    The corporations don’t have to care if their workers can afford decent housing, or even housing within a 2 hour commute. (A friend of mine takes the Google Bus 2 hours each way every day).

    When someone cheaper comes along, dump the worker. Let the taxpayers take care of him/her with welfare state benefits. Opiods and illegal drugs are a great way to dispose of unwanted workers.

  168. @Counterinsurgency

    The USA is, today, close to tipping below IQ97.
     
    Right you are. We're in trouble up to our neck, as has been the case _for my entire life_!!! (prior to 1990 it was the possibility of central nuclear war, then hubristic leadership, and now the IQ decline, all on a substrate of an imperial economy imposed on a disintegrating rural society and cities that were no longer economically viable). On a personal basis, there has been a metronomic thud of dead acquaintances against a background of radio songs trying to kill yet more and on a foundation of declining birth rates for every group that comes here. It just isn't very impressive, somehow. The country has been like a roach motel since WW II.


    Anyway:
    Dutton and Woodley, a couple of UK academics, have a book [1] that makes a very good case that Western IQ has been declining by about 1 point/decade since about 1850, for a decline of something like 15 points). The argument actually has what appears to be solid validation from reaction time studies taken back in the 1850s.
    Dutton and Woodley believe that this decline is due to increased genetic load from reduction of infant mortality, and hypothesize that this would be the case in most or all previous human empires. They dismiss the possibility of eugenics as a correction on the grounds that people pick what their society prizes, which in a declining society would be average cognitive ability, extroversion, sex appeal, athletic ability, etc.

    Obviously introduction of low-cognitive ability groups into the general population would exacerbate the problem.

    Counterinsurgency


    1] Edward Dutton, Woodley
    _At Our Wits' End: Why We're Becoming Less Intelligent and What it Means for the Future_
    Recent publication. Available on Amazon.
    SBN-13: 978-1845409852; ISBN-10: 184540985X.

    Is Edward Dutton related to Liam? Liam’s Welsh is pretty good, whatever his IQ:

  169. @Paleo Liberal
    There are solutions:

    The Trump solution: marry a woman from Eastern Europe. It worked so well for Trump he did it twice!

    The Derbyshire solution: marry a woman from East Asia. True, the kids will be half Asian, but if they grow up among white folks, they will be culturally more white than Asian. The offspring, esp. the female offspring, are considered attractive, so there is a good chance of at least some 75% white grandchildren.

    Variations on the theme: some men who don't have great jobs have gotten Filipina or Thai women. Some men prefer the "jungle Asians" anyway. Or, there is the Jeb Bush solution. Marry a Latina.

    The take-it-or-leave-it solution: about 3/5 of the young college graduates these days are female. Young, white college educated men with a good job are a hot commodity these days. Plenty of white, Asian and Latina women looking for the relatively rare men. At some point the choice will be a man of whatever political beliefs, or no man at all.

    And yes, marrying a woman from a different political party can work. My wife is a Republican, I am a Democrat. Some liberals ask how I can stand to be around Trump voters. Well, I grew up in the South with some extremely conservative relatives. You deal with family and friends even if you disagree with their political views.

    And yes, marrying a woman from a different political party can work. My wife is a Republican, I am a Democrat.

    Please explain, if you can, how somebody like yourself who hangs around a lot at iSteve can still think of himself as a Liberal and a Democrat. Are you, like most Liberals, purely driven by emotions? Do you have some illogical but stubborn attachment to an older identity that’s no longer really you? Or are you just not that bright?

    I really don’t get it.

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal

    Please explain, if you can, how somebody like yourself who hangs around a lot at iSteve can still think of himself as a Liberal and a Democrat. Are you, like most Liberals, purely driven by emotions? Do you have some illogical but stubborn attachment to an older identity that’s no longer really you? Or are you just not that bright?

    I really don’t get it.
     
    I'm not sure if this is meant as a flame, or as an honest questions.

    Am I just not that bright? Well, back in the 1980s I took the GRE, scored 720 Verbal, 790 Math and 800 Analytical. Those were the scores BEFORE all the SAT and GRE scores were redone. Some small fraction of the top 1%. I have a Ph.D. in Chemistry from a fairly prestigious university.

    Maybe I'm not all that bright. I have certainly known a lot of people smarter than I am. I've worked with researchers in some of the top universities in the world, and they tend to be smarter than I am.

    I left academia in 1999, and I have worked as a computer programmer, mostly in science, but also in other industries such as banking, for about 20 years.

    Pretty much all my life I have hung out with people who were either STEM folks, or children of STEM folks on their way to being STEM folks, STEM students, etc.

    Here is what I have found:

    People involved in STEM tend to be a bit left of center. The political spectrum of STEM people I have known ranges from the far left to the far right, but generally left of center.

    To be fair, there are more conservatives in a science department at any given college or university than in the Identity Studies departments. One time I taught at a university where I was probably the most liberal and least religious prof in the chemistry department, and my best friend was the most conservative and most religious prof in that department. We had offices next to each other, and we found we had a lot in common in our world views aside from religion and politics.

    Generally, STEM folks tend to be technocrats. We look at a pragmatic way of solving issues. One can consider the differences between the past two mayors of NYC: Bloomberg the technocrat (actually a slightly left of center Democrat who posed as a Republican for 12 years) vs. De Blasio the touchy-feeling guy who doesn't care about facts and figures just about feeeeels.

    Most liberals are not technocrats, but neither are most conservatives. I would think the vast majority people who vote in any given election do so more on feelings than on well thought out ideas.

    You may say my experience with STEM people is skewed, because I have been at universities, which are generally left of center, and I have worked in some of the most liberal cities in the US, such as Madison and San Francisco and New York. However, I worked for a company in Tulsa once that made oil wells. If one is going to find conservatives in STEM, that would be the first place to look, right?

    Wrong. There were over a dozen programmers I worked with. ONE of them had voted for Trump. Note that this was the most conservative industry in the most conservative state in the US.

    Let's not forget some of the most brilliant scientists have been very far left. Einstein, Pauling, and many others pop in my head.

    Why are most scientists left of center?

    Well, I could tell you the answer you want to hear, but I am assuming you asked a serious question.

    First off, to a great extent, the conservative movement abandoned science long ago. I grew up in the Bible Belt, and had to deal with smug conservatives who insisted that evolution was a hoax. The state legislature passed a bill, which the governor enthusiastically signed, saying that the schools must teach "creation science". I already knew that in the rural areas no school teacher could ever utter the words "Darwin" or "evolution" in class as still survive.

    What about Wisconsin, where I live now?

    The former executive secretary of the Wisconsin Board of Commissioners of Public Lands, Tia Nelson (daughter of Gaylord Nelson) had a gag order put on her because she dared to answer a science question honestly when asked at a congressional hearing. So she resigned.

    Trump has declared much of the best-established science to be a "Chinese hoax".

    Sorry, but when conservatives make opposition to scientific research a litmus test for being a conservative, then it is very hard for STEM folks to be conservatives.
  170. @Paleo Liberal
    She says she voted for Ross Perot. She despises the entire Bush family.

    Her family immigrated to the US in 1980, and they really liked Reagan. They also greatly preferred Guilliani to Dinkins. (Dinkins was such a bad mayor even I voted for Guilinani in 1993).

    These days she has been voted more for Democrats. This is more of a comment on the sad state of the GOP these days. She made a comment to our kids once that if she didn't have any kids she would vote Republican, but since she has kids she votes for the Democrats. Maybe that has something to do with the way the Wisconsin Republicans have been cutting funding for education recently. In the old days, both Democrats and Republicans in Wisconsin agreed to fund education and roads. Cutting funding for education and roads probably lost the last gubernatorial election for Scott Walker. People up here like having good schools. That is why the current governor is a former school teacher whose last position was superintendent of the schools for the entire state.

    Cutting funding for education and roads probably lost the last gubernatorial election for Scott Walker. People up here like having good schools

    The effect of “more funding” on having “good schools” is exactly zero. In fact, it’s often below zero because more funding leads to wasting money on stupid initiatives, fads and administrators that are counter-productive. The best way to improve most public schools would be to cut their budgets by 50% and tell them to figure it the hell out. Education is the most over-rated good sold in America, but people fall for the con, especially women.

    Roads, on the other hand, are important.

    • Agree: The Anti-Gnostic
    • Replies: @Kronos
    Don’t forget about unfunded federal legal requirements. Special Education, bilingual classes, etc. that stuff is expensive! The Supreme Court requires it but won’t pay or even supplement it.
    , @Jim Don Bob

    Education is the most over-rated good sold in America, but people fall for the con, especially women.
     
    Women fall for a lot stupid stuff, because feelz.

    There is no demonstrated relationship between student achievement and $ spent per student. There is between student achievement and Magic Dirt.
  171. @Reg Cæsar

    The Packers used to play 2 games a year in Milwaukee.
     
    Didn't it use to be three? Back in the '60s and '70s?

    Season tickets are a 30+-year wait, but many are held by tour bus companies, and you can get to games that way. My in-laws did this a few years back. They live about ten miles from the Minnesota border, but nobody there is interested in that state's expansion team.

    Didn’t it use to be three? Back in the ’60s and ’70s?

    I looked it up. It depends on the year. They played anywhere from 2-4 games a year. Sometimes that was half of the games.

    Although most of the original NFL teams were small market, within a few years it became extremely difficult for small market teams to survive. Most of the small market teams either moved to big cities, or else folded completely. The consolidations started in the mid-late 1920s.

    The Packers survived the consolidations three ways:

    1. For many years they were a really good team. From 1929-1944 they were either first or second in their division almost every year, including 6 NFL championships along the way. That helped the team survive.
    2. The two years during that stretch they were NOT 1 or 2 were 1933 and 1934. So in 1934 they started playing a lot of their games in the Milwaukee area to get the big-city fan base. (I gather Vince Lombardi kept Milwaukee from getting an AFL franchise by threatening to stop playing Packer games in Milwaukee. Instead they got an NBA franchise — the Bucks)
    3. When the team went south, the Packers raised the money they needed to survive by selling the team to the fans as a non-profit organization. This is now illegal under NFL rules, but the Packers are grandfathered in. When the Packers need money, they go to the fans, rather than the taxpayers. Which makes the Packers the only pro team one can morally root for. 🙂

    From 1934-1994, the Packers played anywhere from 1/4 to 1/2 of their games every year in or near Milwaukee (West Allis, right outside of Milwaukee, from 1934-1951).

    When Miller Park was built, it was built as a baseball-only stadium. By 1995 the Packers were one of the best teams in the NFL. They won their division behind young QB Brett Favre.

    Which brings up points 4, 5 on how the Packers survived:

    4. For the past 20+ years they have had Brett Favre and Aaron Rodgers, two of the all-time NFL great QBs, and have usually been a really good team. So the Milwaukee fans will still drive up to Green Bay to see them, and they are popular all over the country. They are one of the most popular pro sports franchises, partly because of their history and partly because they usually make the playoffs.

    5. Revenue sharing — these days ALL the NFL teams get a large chunk of the pie. There is so much $$$$$ spread around that few franchises are ever hurting.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    I have to remind people that Wisconsin, with almost six million people, is no "small market".

    The Iowa Driftless shows up as Packer territory on Facebook's map, even though Dubuque is closer to Chicago and Minneapolis than to Green Bay. (And not much farther than St Louis and Kansas City.) Like the Cowboys, the Pack does well in the neutral areas.
  172. @ben tillman
    Of all things, it was water that finally got my anti-immigration perspective some traction with my wife.

    That’s very believable. I don’t know how much water an average American uses per annum but it’s not like a “new American” brings their annual water allotment in a tank on their back when they cross the border.

    I think for immigration restrictions to gain traction on the left we need an “only Nixon can go to China” moment. It’d be nice if a prominent Democratic politician with strong environmentalist credentials would stand and tell his party “Yeah, Republicans are haters, but they’re right even if for the wrong reasons. Nature can sustain only so many Americans.”

    I don’t see any such character emerging however.

  173. @peterike

    Cutting funding for education and roads probably lost the last gubernatorial election for Scott Walker. People up here like having good schools

     

    The effect of "more funding" on having "good schools" is exactly zero. In fact, it's often below zero because more funding leads to wasting money on stupid initiatives, fads and administrators that are counter-productive. The best way to improve most public schools would be to cut their budgets by 50% and tell them to figure it the hell out. Education is the most over-rated good sold in America, but people fall for the con, especially women.

    Roads, on the other hand, are important.

    Don’t forget about unfunded federal legal requirements. Special Education, bilingual classes, etc. that stuff is expensive! The Supreme Court requires it but won’t pay or even supplement it.

  174. @Paleo Liberal
    She says she voted for Ross Perot. She despises the entire Bush family.

    Her family immigrated to the US in 1980, and they really liked Reagan. They also greatly preferred Guilliani to Dinkins. (Dinkins was such a bad mayor even I voted for Guilinani in 1993).

    These days she has been voted more for Democrats. This is more of a comment on the sad state of the GOP these days. She made a comment to our kids once that if she didn't have any kids she would vote Republican, but since she has kids she votes for the Democrats. Maybe that has something to do with the way the Wisconsin Republicans have been cutting funding for education recently. In the old days, both Democrats and Republicans in Wisconsin agreed to fund education and roads. Cutting funding for education and roads probably lost the last gubernatorial election for Scott Walker. People up here like having good schools. That is why the current governor is a former school teacher whose last position was superintendent of the schools for the entire state.

    The reason I asked is because I’m always interested in voting history. Trump’s territorial victories overlap very well with Ross Perot hot spots. I’m betting the Republican Party will continue down the road of Perot/Buchanan while the Democrats will go Nader/Sanders. With the Baby Boomers dying off, the parties will revert back to pre-boomer orientations. Republicans will support protectionism while Democrats support labor. When historians look back, they’ll view Baby Boomers combined with 401k/Roth plans as one of most economic disastrous policies in US history.

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal

    Trump’s territorial victories overlap very well with Ross Perot hot spots.
     
    Interesting.

    I think there is a very good reason for this.

    To be blunt, globalism doesn't work for a lot of people.

    I remember seeing a graph once, I wish I could find the source, showing which people globalism helped vs. which people it hurt.

    The good news: Globalism has helped most people in the world. It has helped rich first world corporations. It has helped many people in countries like China and India get out of poverty.

    The bad news: Globalism has been very bad for people who were in the first world working class and middle class.

    Perot, Buchanan and Trump are the anti-globalists of the right (or at least Trump pretends to be anti-globalist. I am not convinced he really is).

    On the left, Nader and Sanders have been the main anti-globalists. Nader and Buchanan used to work together on trade issues quite frequently. Nader has suggested the anti-globalist left join with the anti-globalist right. Pat B. endorsed that idea. However, when Bernie Sanders offered to work with Trump on trade issues, Trump turned him down flat. Which is one reason I am not 100% convinced that Trump is a real anti-globalist nationalist.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    Trump’s territorial victories overlap very well with Ross Perot hot spots.
     
    That 's nothing. Goldwater's best counties were FDR's just 20 years earlier. It's hard to think of two more opposite candidates.
    , @Charles Erwin Wilson 3

    Republicans will support protectionism while Democrats support labor.
     
    Nope. Democrats will support corporatism because corporate managers are all 'woke,' which gives the managers space to abuse the workers.
    , @Kronos
    The term “Liberal” has a bit of a image problem. Often associated with social science/humanity professors who are often over-emotional and conniving. By “Paleo Liberal” I believe your referring to being a New Deal Democrat? 1960s Baby Boomers greatly tarnished the brand name. Manly Men who were allies with the hardworking deserving poor of the Great Depression. But then the Great Society happened and all is history.
  175. @Alden
    Don’t bring a hunting rifle to a tank battle.

    Yeah the Afghanis and Iraqis did that and look how they got steamrolled.

    You meant to say “don’t bring a tank to a guerilla war”.

  176. @peterike

    And yes, marrying a woman from a different political party can work. My wife is a Republican, I am a Democrat.

     

    Please explain, if you can, how somebody like yourself who hangs around a lot at iSteve can still think of himself as a Liberal and a Democrat. Are you, like most Liberals, purely driven by emotions? Do you have some illogical but stubborn attachment to an older identity that's no longer really you? Or are you just not that bright?

    I really don't get it.

    Please explain, if you can, how somebody like yourself who hangs around a lot at iSteve can still think of himself as a Liberal and a Democrat. Are you, like most Liberals, purely driven by emotions? Do you have some illogical but stubborn attachment to an older identity that’s no longer really you? Or are you just not that bright?

    I really don’t get it.

    I’m not sure if this is meant as a flame, or as an honest questions.

    Am I just not that bright? Well, back in the 1980s I took the GRE, scored 720 Verbal, 790 Math and 800 Analytical. Those were the scores BEFORE all the SAT and GRE scores were redone. Some small fraction of the top 1%. I have a Ph.D. in Chemistry from a fairly prestigious university.

    Maybe I’m not all that bright. I have certainly known a lot of people smarter than I am. I’ve worked with researchers in some of the top universities in the world, and they tend to be smarter than I am.

    I left academia in 1999, and I have worked as a computer programmer, mostly in science, but also in other industries such as banking, for about 20 years.

    Pretty much all my life I have hung out with people who were either STEM folks, or children of STEM folks on their way to being STEM folks, STEM students, etc.

    Here is what I have found:

    People involved in STEM tend to be a bit left of center. The political spectrum of STEM people I have known ranges from the far left to the far right, but generally left of center.

    To be fair, there are more conservatives in a science department at any given college or university than in the Identity Studies departments. One time I taught at a university where I was probably the most liberal and least religious prof in the chemistry department, and my best friend was the most conservative and most religious prof in that department. We had offices next to each other, and we found we had a lot in common in our world views aside from religion and politics.

    Generally, STEM folks tend to be technocrats. We look at a pragmatic way of solving issues. One can consider the differences between the past two mayors of NYC: Bloomberg the technocrat (actually a slightly left of center Democrat who posed as a Republican for 12 years) vs. De Blasio the touchy-feeling guy who doesn’t care about facts and figures just about feeeeels.

    Most liberals are not technocrats, but neither are most conservatives. I would think the vast majority people who vote in any given election do so more on feelings than on well thought out ideas.

    You may say my experience with STEM people is skewed, because I have been at universities, which are generally left of center, and I have worked in some of the most liberal cities in the US, such as Madison and San Francisco and New York. However, I worked for a company in Tulsa once that made oil wells. If one is going to find conservatives in STEM, that would be the first place to look, right?

    Wrong. There were over a dozen programmers I worked with. ONE of them had voted for Trump. Note that this was the most conservative industry in the most conservative state in the US.

    Let’s not forget some of the most brilliant scientists have been very far left. Einstein, Pauling, and many others pop in my head.

    Why are most scientists left of center?

    Well, I could tell you the answer you want to hear, but I am assuming you asked a serious question.

    First off, to a great extent, the conservative movement abandoned science long ago. I grew up in the Bible Belt, and had to deal with smug conservatives who insisted that evolution was a hoax. The state legislature passed a bill, which the governor enthusiastically signed, saying that the schools must teach “creation science”. I already knew that in the rural areas no school teacher could ever utter the words “Darwin” or “evolution” in class as still survive.

    What about Wisconsin, where I live now?

    The former executive secretary of the Wisconsin Board of Commissioners of Public Lands, Tia Nelson (daughter of Gaylord Nelson) had a gag order put on her because she dared to answer a science question honestly when asked at a congressional hearing. So she resigned.

    Trump has declared much of the best-established science to be a “Chinese hoax”.

    Sorry, but when conservatives make opposition to scientific research a litmus test for being a conservative, then it is very hard for STEM folks to be conservatives.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    . I already knew that in the rural areas no school teacher could ever utter the words “Darwin” or “evolution” in class as still survive.
     
    Kind of like the words "Galton" and "race" in urban schools today. (Never mind "Coon".)

    Bloomberg the technocrat (actually a slightly left of center Democrat who posed as a Republican for 12 years) vs. De Blasio the touchy-feeling guy who doesn’t care about facts and figures just about feeeeels.
     

    When it came to guns, Bloomberg posed as DeBlasio for 12 years.

    True, he did focus on black teens, whose guns would be illegal by definition, rather than stockbrokers who, if carrying, did so with a license. So that part was pragmatic.

    , @Charles Erwin Wilson 3

    Well, back in the 1980s I took the GRE, scored 720 Verbal, 790 Math and 800 Analytical. Those were the scores BEFORE all the SAT and GRE scores were redone. Some small fraction of the top 1%. I have a Ph.D. in Chemistry from a fairly prestigious university.
     
    Your credentialism is duly noted. And we all know that credentials determine the quality of your arguments.

    Come back when we have a Chemistry question. Otherwise, you advocacy for the greatest of all crimes against humanity renders your opinions toxic.
    , @Charles Erwin Wilson 3

    Sorry, but when conservatives make opposition to scientific research a litmus test for being a conservative, then it is very hard for STEM folks to be conservatives.
     
    Do your straw-man arguments make you feel good? Your posting here is therapeutic, no?
    , @Kronos
    The term “Liberal” has a bit of a image problem. Often associated with social science/humanity professors who are often over-emotional and conniving. By “Paleo Liberal” I believe your referring to being a New Deal Democrat? 1960s Baby Boomers greatly tarnished the brand name. Manly Men who were allies with the hardworking deserving poor of the Great Depression. But then the Great Society happened and all is history.
    , @peterike
    Thank you for taking the time to answer my question at length, but it wasn't very satisfying. As Charles Erwin Wilson 3 noted, your final argument about "why I'm not a Conservative" was not only a strawman argument, but one based on a Liberal stereotyping. Really, you went with the "Conservatives don't believe in evolution!" argument? Sheesh.

    Well here's one for you: Progressives don't believe in it either, because blank-slatism is the most anti-Evolution position you can have. Creationism is more respectable than blank-slatism. At least you can't definitely disprove a magical Creation, but blank-slatism has been disproved for centuries, yet millions believe it, and what's more, want people like me dead because they believe it.

    And this:

    Trump has declared much of the best-established science to be a “Chinese hoax”.

     

    You refer to "climate science" I believe? If you consider Global Warmism to be "the best-established science" then I don't know what to say. It's a silly farce. And Trump, in his usual mish-mashy fashion, managed to be both correct and off target at the same time. He probably once heard about how billionaire oil-man and Canadian Commie Maurice Strong was behind the initiation of the Global Warming Scheme (and it IS a scheme), which he did indeed kick off in many ways with the Agenda 21 initiative in 1992, when he was living in China. Like many of us, Trump squashes different ideas together.

    So it wasn't a "Chinese hoax," but it was very much a hoax that started with a guy in China. So there you are. Trump is nearly always more right than wrong, but sometimes you have to unravel what he says.

    Now to be fair, I don't like the anti-evolutionist Christians either, because they hurt the cause. I think they make much too easy targets for the mocking media, who quite deliberately uses this small group of people to paint all Conservatives as "anti-science." Seems like you took the bait. Oh well.
    , @Kronos
    “I grew up in the Bible Belt, and had to deal with smug conservatives who insisted that evolution was a hoax.”

    Man, I remember all those fights in middle school. Now everything is upside down with the “more than two genders” stuff running around. They’ll come after you for disagreeing just like the Baptists of old.
  177. @Kronos
    The reason I asked is because I’m always interested in voting history. Trump’s territorial victories overlap very well with Ross Perot hot spots. I’m betting the Republican Party will continue down the road of Perot/Buchanan while the Democrats will go Nader/Sanders. With the Baby Boomers dying off, the parties will revert back to pre-boomer orientations. Republicans will support protectionism while Democrats support labor. When historians look back, they’ll view Baby Boomers combined with 401k/Roth plans as one of most economic disastrous policies in US history.

    Trump’s territorial victories overlap very well with Ross Perot hot spots.

    Interesting.

    I think there is a very good reason for this.

    To be blunt, globalism doesn’t work for a lot of people.

    I remember seeing a graph once, I wish I could find the source, showing which people globalism helped vs. which people it hurt.

    The good news: Globalism has helped most people in the world. It has helped rich first world corporations. It has helped many people in countries like China and India get out of poverty.

    The bad news: Globalism has been very bad for people who were in the first world working class and middle class.

    Perot, Buchanan and Trump are the anti-globalists of the right (or at least Trump pretends to be anti-globalist. I am not convinced he really is).

    On the left, Nader and Sanders have been the main anti-globalists. Nader and Buchanan used to work together on trade issues quite frequently. Nader has suggested the anti-globalist left join with the anti-globalist right. Pat B. endorsed that idea. However, when Bernie Sanders offered to work with Trump on trade issues, Trump turned him down flat. Which is one reason I am not 100% convinced that Trump is a real anti-globalist nationalist.

    • Replies: @Kronos
    Both the Neocon/Free Marketeers and Third-way Neoliberal Democrats still possess significant influence. The rebuilding of both parties is going to be interesting for sure. Since the retirement plans came into being in the late 1970s, the Stock Market has been the leading electoral issue. The culture wars were just that, cultural. The vast majority of boomers were on the same page on making shareholder money. Both boomer Republicans and Democrats invested in the same S&P, Dow Jones, and etc. For the last forty years, mainstream party factions been trying to goad the opposing party’s fringes to negatively impact the stock market. Thus creating an electoral landslide. The thing is, the Stock Market no longer represents the real economy, it’s all capital gain growth. The new generation don’t have the jobs and salaries to invest in stocks. So protectionism and socialism look great! Lower real estate costs would be great for them, but will kill boomer home equity.
  178. @Justvisiting
    The next generation of whites will learn the old Soviet maxim:

    "So long as the bosses pretend to pay us, we will pretend to work".

    More and more people will try to ride in the wagon than pull the wagon.

  179. @Paleo Liberal

    Please explain, if you can, how somebody like yourself who hangs around a lot at iSteve can still think of himself as a Liberal and a Democrat. Are you, like most Liberals, purely driven by emotions? Do you have some illogical but stubborn attachment to an older identity that’s no longer really you? Or are you just not that bright?

    I really don’t get it.
     
    I'm not sure if this is meant as a flame, or as an honest questions.

    Am I just not that bright? Well, back in the 1980s I took the GRE, scored 720 Verbal, 790 Math and 800 Analytical. Those were the scores BEFORE all the SAT and GRE scores were redone. Some small fraction of the top 1%. I have a Ph.D. in Chemistry from a fairly prestigious university.

    Maybe I'm not all that bright. I have certainly known a lot of people smarter than I am. I've worked with researchers in some of the top universities in the world, and they tend to be smarter than I am.

    I left academia in 1999, and I have worked as a computer programmer, mostly in science, but also in other industries such as banking, for about 20 years.

    Pretty much all my life I have hung out with people who were either STEM folks, or children of STEM folks on their way to being STEM folks, STEM students, etc.

    Here is what I have found:

    People involved in STEM tend to be a bit left of center. The political spectrum of STEM people I have known ranges from the far left to the far right, but generally left of center.

    To be fair, there are more conservatives in a science department at any given college or university than in the Identity Studies departments. One time I taught at a university where I was probably the most liberal and least religious prof in the chemistry department, and my best friend was the most conservative and most religious prof in that department. We had offices next to each other, and we found we had a lot in common in our world views aside from religion and politics.

    Generally, STEM folks tend to be technocrats. We look at a pragmatic way of solving issues. One can consider the differences between the past two mayors of NYC: Bloomberg the technocrat (actually a slightly left of center Democrat who posed as a Republican for 12 years) vs. De Blasio the touchy-feeling guy who doesn't care about facts and figures just about feeeeels.

    Most liberals are not technocrats, but neither are most conservatives. I would think the vast majority people who vote in any given election do so more on feelings than on well thought out ideas.

    You may say my experience with STEM people is skewed, because I have been at universities, which are generally left of center, and I have worked in some of the most liberal cities in the US, such as Madison and San Francisco and New York. However, I worked for a company in Tulsa once that made oil wells. If one is going to find conservatives in STEM, that would be the first place to look, right?

    Wrong. There were over a dozen programmers I worked with. ONE of them had voted for Trump. Note that this was the most conservative industry in the most conservative state in the US.

    Let's not forget some of the most brilliant scientists have been very far left. Einstein, Pauling, and many others pop in my head.

    Why are most scientists left of center?

    Well, I could tell you the answer you want to hear, but I am assuming you asked a serious question.

    First off, to a great extent, the conservative movement abandoned science long ago. I grew up in the Bible Belt, and had to deal with smug conservatives who insisted that evolution was a hoax. The state legislature passed a bill, which the governor enthusiastically signed, saying that the schools must teach "creation science". I already knew that in the rural areas no school teacher could ever utter the words "Darwin" or "evolution" in class as still survive.

    What about Wisconsin, where I live now?

    The former executive secretary of the Wisconsin Board of Commissioners of Public Lands, Tia Nelson (daughter of Gaylord Nelson) had a gag order put on her because she dared to answer a science question honestly when asked at a congressional hearing. So she resigned.

    Trump has declared much of the best-established science to be a "Chinese hoax".

    Sorry, but when conservatives make opposition to scientific research a litmus test for being a conservative, then it is very hard for STEM folks to be conservatives.

    . I already knew that in the rural areas no school teacher could ever utter the words “Darwin” or “evolution” in class as still survive.

    Kind of like the words “Galton” and “race” in urban schools today. (Never mind “Coon”.)

    Bloomberg the technocrat (actually a slightly left of center Democrat who posed as a Republican for 12 years) vs. De Blasio the touchy-feeling guy who doesn’t care about facts and figures just about feeeeels.

    When it came to guns, Bloomberg posed as DeBlasio for 12 years.

    True, he did focus on black teens, whose guns would be illegal by definition, rather than stockbrokers who, if carrying, did so with a license. So that part was pragmatic.

  180. @Kronos
    The reason I asked is because I’m always interested in voting history. Trump’s territorial victories overlap very well with Ross Perot hot spots. I’m betting the Republican Party will continue down the road of Perot/Buchanan while the Democrats will go Nader/Sanders. With the Baby Boomers dying off, the parties will revert back to pre-boomer orientations. Republicans will support protectionism while Democrats support labor. When historians look back, they’ll view Baby Boomers combined with 401k/Roth plans as one of most economic disastrous policies in US history.

    Trump’s territorial victories overlap very well with Ross Perot hot spots.

    That ‘s nothing. Goldwater’s best counties were FDR’s just 20 years earlier. It’s hard to think of two more opposite candidates.

    • Replies: @Kronos
    Really? Were they urban or rural? Were they demographically static or getting diversified?
  181. @Paleo Liberal

    Didn’t it use to be three? Back in the ’60s and ’70s?
     
    I looked it up. It depends on the year. They played anywhere from 2-4 games a year. Sometimes that was half of the games.

    Although most of the original NFL teams were small market, within a few years it became extremely difficult for small market teams to survive. Most of the small market teams either moved to big cities, or else folded completely. The consolidations started in the mid-late 1920s.

    The Packers survived the consolidations three ways:

    1. For many years they were a really good team. From 1929-1944 they were either first or second in their division almost every year, including 6 NFL championships along the way. That helped the team survive.
    2. The two years during that stretch they were NOT 1 or 2 were 1933 and 1934. So in 1934 they started playing a lot of their games in the Milwaukee area to get the big-city fan base. (I gather Vince Lombardi kept Milwaukee from getting an AFL franchise by threatening to stop playing Packer games in Milwaukee. Instead they got an NBA franchise -- the Bucks)
    3. When the team went south, the Packers raised the money they needed to survive by selling the team to the fans as a non-profit organization. This is now illegal under NFL rules, but the Packers are grandfathered in. When the Packers need money, they go to the fans, rather than the taxpayers. Which makes the Packers the only pro team one can morally root for. :-)

    From 1934-1994, the Packers played anywhere from 1/4 to 1/2 of their games every year in or near Milwaukee (West Allis, right outside of Milwaukee, from 1934-1951).

    When Miller Park was built, it was built as a baseball-only stadium. By 1995 the Packers were one of the best teams in the NFL. They won their division behind young QB Brett Favre.

    Which brings up points 4, 5 on how the Packers survived:

    4. For the past 20+ years they have had Brett Favre and Aaron Rodgers, two of the all-time NFL great QBs, and have usually been a really good team. So the Milwaukee fans will still drive up to Green Bay to see them, and they are popular all over the country. They are one of the most popular pro sports franchises, partly because of their history and partly because they usually make the playoffs.

    5. Revenue sharing -- these days ALL the NFL teams get a large chunk of the pie. There is so much $$$$$ spread around that few franchises are ever hurting.

    I have to remind people that Wisconsin, with almost six million people, is no “small market”.

    The Iowa Driftless shows up as Packer territory on Facebook’s map, even though Dubuque is closer to Chicago and Minneapolis than to Green Bay. (And not much farther than St Louis and Kansas City.) Like the Cowboys, the Pack does well in the neutral areas.

  182. @Paleo Liberal

    Trump’s territorial victories overlap very well with Ross Perot hot spots.
     
    Interesting.

    I think there is a very good reason for this.

    To be blunt, globalism doesn't work for a lot of people.

    I remember seeing a graph once, I wish I could find the source, showing which people globalism helped vs. which people it hurt.

    The good news: Globalism has helped most people in the world. It has helped rich first world corporations. It has helped many people in countries like China and India get out of poverty.

    The bad news: Globalism has been very bad for people who were in the first world working class and middle class.

    Perot, Buchanan and Trump are the anti-globalists of the right (or at least Trump pretends to be anti-globalist. I am not convinced he really is).

    On the left, Nader and Sanders have been the main anti-globalists. Nader and Buchanan used to work together on trade issues quite frequently. Nader has suggested the anti-globalist left join with the anti-globalist right. Pat B. endorsed that idea. However, when Bernie Sanders offered to work with Trump on trade issues, Trump turned him down flat. Which is one reason I am not 100% convinced that Trump is a real anti-globalist nationalist.

    Both the Neocon/Free Marketeers and Third-way Neoliberal Democrats still possess significant influence. The rebuilding of both parties is going to be interesting for sure. Since the retirement plans came into being in the late 1970s, the Stock Market has been the leading electoral issue. The culture wars were just that, cultural. The vast majority of boomers were on the same page on making shareholder money. Both boomer Republicans and Democrats invested in the same S&P, Dow Jones, and etc. For the last forty years, mainstream party factions been trying to goad the opposing party’s fringes to negatively impact the stock market. Thus creating an electoral landslide. The thing is, the Stock Market no longer represents the real economy, it’s all capital gain growth. The new generation don’t have the jobs and salaries to invest in stocks. So protectionism and socialism look great! Lower real estate costs would be great for them, but will kill boomer home equity.

  183. Hail says: • Website
    @Counterinsurgency

    The USA is, today, close to tipping below IQ97.
     
    Right you are. We're in trouble up to our neck, as has been the case _for my entire life_!!! (prior to 1990 it was the possibility of central nuclear war, then hubristic leadership, and now the IQ decline, all on a substrate of an imperial economy imposed on a disintegrating rural society and cities that were no longer economically viable). On a personal basis, there has been a metronomic thud of dead acquaintances against a background of radio songs trying to kill yet more and on a foundation of declining birth rates for every group that comes here. It just isn't very impressive, somehow. The country has been like a roach motel since WW II.


    Anyway:
    Dutton and Woodley, a couple of UK academics, have a book [1] that makes a very good case that Western IQ has been declining by about 1 point/decade since about 1850, for a decline of something like 15 points). The argument actually has what appears to be solid validation from reaction time studies taken back in the 1850s.
    Dutton and Woodley believe that this decline is due to increased genetic load from reduction of infant mortality, and hypothesize that this would be the case in most or all previous human empires. They dismiss the possibility of eugenics as a correction on the grounds that people pick what their society prizes, which in a declining society would be average cognitive ability, extroversion, sex appeal, athletic ability, etc.

    Obviously introduction of low-cognitive ability groups into the general population would exacerbate the problem.

    Counterinsurgency


    1] Edward Dutton, Woodley
    _At Our Wits' End: Why We're Becoming Less Intelligent and What it Means for the Future_
    Recent publication. Available on Amazon.
    SBN-13: 978-1845409852; ISBN-10: 184540985X.

    The -1.0 IQ-point/decade genotypic decline estimate may be high, but I would like to see what Dutton and Woodley have to say on the matter.

    I think Richard Lynn estimates (or endorses someone’s estimate), of an avg. White genotypic IQ ‘hit’ (due to dysgenic fertility) of -0.33 IQ points per decade for 19th century Q2 to 21st century Q1, implying up to a 6 or 7 point IQ loss from the birth cohorts of, say, Lincoln and R.E.Lee, to those being born today. If we take the present-day White-British/US mean as 100 by definition, our ancestors two centuries ago would’ve been (genotypically) at 107, which is highly impressive by anyone’s standard.

    (Take the above for what it’s worth because I don’t have any sources on hand, and this comment is from a recollection.)

    I am pretty sure that Lynn also found dysgenic fertility is significantly larger-scale among US Blacks than US Whites, implying The Gap will be widening, not closing.

  184. @The Anti-Gnostic
    Stockholm syndrome? More like one of the bank robbers, or wreckers. He's a Hindu who wants to bring in more Asians to assuage his sense of alienation in a majority-white country. "America," as he is repeatedly told by the goodwhites, is just a proposition, not a particular people nor even a particular place. The American biome is nothing to him but a constant, grating reminder of his outsider status. How many Hindu do you ever see backpacking, hunting or fishing, or looking at old monuments or architecture? You think he gives a hoot about the place becoming the same ramshackle, filthy, termite mound as India?

    The immigrant always wants more immigrants--his sense of grievance and resentment of his hosts defines him. We need a full, two-generation moratorium. We won't get it, so it will all end in tears.

    Brutal comment.

    Hereby nominated for an honorary Gold Box.

  185. “I want people to come into this country in the largest numbers ever.”

    “We need people in our country because our unemployment numbers are so low and we have massive numbers of companies coming back into our country — car companies, we have seven car companies coming back in right now and there’s going to be a lot more — we’ve done really well with this, and we need people.”

    “I need people coming in because we need people to run the factories and plants and companies that are moving back in. We need people.”

    “H1-B holders in the United States can rest assured that changes are soon coming which will bring both simplicity and certainty to your stay, including a potential path to citizenship. We want to encourage talented and highly skilled people to pursue career options in the U.S.”

    -Donald Trump

    Just because Republicans pretend to be against something, doesn’t make it so. Neither party really wants to stop illegal or legal immigration, bad for business, this is a capitalist country, profit comes first, second, and last. The “international financiers” aka capitalists do not give one shit about your culture, traditions, community, race, family, or country. Its all about the Benjamins as Ilhan says.

    Republicans and Dems take their bribes from the same scumbags. Quite honestly I think Sanders would probably be best when it comes to the immigration issue. But I know right wingers just can’t get over that whole scary socialist-communist obsession.

    • Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson 3

    But I know right wingers just can’t get over that whole scary socialist-communist obsession.
     
    Yeah, those 100+ million dead that 'scary socialist-communist' regimes inflicted on humanity are nothing to worry about, right Spanky?
  186. @Reg Cæsar

    Trump’s territorial victories overlap very well with Ross Perot hot spots.
     
    That 's nothing. Goldwater's best counties were FDR's just 20 years earlier. It's hard to think of two more opposite candidates.

    Really? Were they urban or rural? Were they demographically static or getting diversified?

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    They had been diversified centuries ago.
  187. @Kronos
    The reason I asked is because I’m always interested in voting history. Trump’s territorial victories overlap very well with Ross Perot hot spots. I’m betting the Republican Party will continue down the road of Perot/Buchanan while the Democrats will go Nader/Sanders. With the Baby Boomers dying off, the parties will revert back to pre-boomer orientations. Republicans will support protectionism while Democrats support labor. When historians look back, they’ll view Baby Boomers combined with 401k/Roth plans as one of most economic disastrous policies in US history.

    Republicans will support protectionism while Democrats support labor.

    Nope. Democrats will support corporatism because corporate managers are all ‘woke,’ which gives the managers space to abuse the workers.

    • Replies: @Kronos
    They’re “woke” so they can keep the finance-friendly Clinton Democrat’s in power. You pay Hillary $1000 a day to keep the Bernie away. The electoral math is turning against that strain of the Democratic Party. Imagine how quickly the Democratic Party transformed geographically/ideologically from 1968 to 1992. From Hubert Humphrey’s platform to Bill Clinton. All essentially stemmed from the Boomer’s generational size of between 78-90million. By 1965 they constituted 1/2 of the US population. But with their population declining, New Deal Democrats are likely going to reassert themselves. The joke used to be that Bill Clinton always punches harder to his left than his right. But with boomer decline, the alt-right isn’t the only group (or groups) fleeing the One-Party Two Wings Boomer reservation.
  188. @Paleo Liberal

    Please explain, if you can, how somebody like yourself who hangs around a lot at iSteve can still think of himself as a Liberal and a Democrat. Are you, like most Liberals, purely driven by emotions? Do you have some illogical but stubborn attachment to an older identity that’s no longer really you? Or are you just not that bright?

    I really don’t get it.
     
    I'm not sure if this is meant as a flame, or as an honest questions.

    Am I just not that bright? Well, back in the 1980s I took the GRE, scored 720 Verbal, 790 Math and 800 Analytical. Those were the scores BEFORE all the SAT and GRE scores were redone. Some small fraction of the top 1%. I have a Ph.D. in Chemistry from a fairly prestigious university.

    Maybe I'm not all that bright. I have certainly known a lot of people smarter than I am. I've worked with researchers in some of the top universities in the world, and they tend to be smarter than I am.

    I left academia in 1999, and I have worked as a computer programmer, mostly in science, but also in other industries such as banking, for about 20 years.

    Pretty much all my life I have hung out with people who were either STEM folks, or children of STEM folks on their way to being STEM folks, STEM students, etc.

    Here is what I have found:

    People involved in STEM tend to be a bit left of center. The political spectrum of STEM people I have known ranges from the far left to the far right, but generally left of center.

    To be fair, there are more conservatives in a science department at any given college or university than in the Identity Studies departments. One time I taught at a university where I was probably the most liberal and least religious prof in the chemistry department, and my best friend was the most conservative and most religious prof in that department. We had offices next to each other, and we found we had a lot in common in our world views aside from religion and politics.

    Generally, STEM folks tend to be technocrats. We look at a pragmatic way of solving issues. One can consider the differences between the past two mayors of NYC: Bloomberg the technocrat (actually a slightly left of center Democrat who posed as a Republican for 12 years) vs. De Blasio the touchy-feeling guy who doesn't care about facts and figures just about feeeeels.

    Most liberals are not technocrats, but neither are most conservatives. I would think the vast majority people who vote in any given election do so more on feelings than on well thought out ideas.

    You may say my experience with STEM people is skewed, because I have been at universities, which are generally left of center, and I have worked in some of the most liberal cities in the US, such as Madison and San Francisco and New York. However, I worked for a company in Tulsa once that made oil wells. If one is going to find conservatives in STEM, that would be the first place to look, right?

    Wrong. There were over a dozen programmers I worked with. ONE of them had voted for Trump. Note that this was the most conservative industry in the most conservative state in the US.

    Let's not forget some of the most brilliant scientists have been very far left. Einstein, Pauling, and many others pop in my head.

    Why are most scientists left of center?

    Well, I could tell you the answer you want to hear, but I am assuming you asked a serious question.

    First off, to a great extent, the conservative movement abandoned science long ago. I grew up in the Bible Belt, and had to deal with smug conservatives who insisted that evolution was a hoax. The state legislature passed a bill, which the governor enthusiastically signed, saying that the schools must teach "creation science". I already knew that in the rural areas no school teacher could ever utter the words "Darwin" or "evolution" in class as still survive.

    What about Wisconsin, where I live now?

    The former executive secretary of the Wisconsin Board of Commissioners of Public Lands, Tia Nelson (daughter of Gaylord Nelson) had a gag order put on her because she dared to answer a science question honestly when asked at a congressional hearing. So she resigned.

    Trump has declared much of the best-established science to be a "Chinese hoax".

    Sorry, but when conservatives make opposition to scientific research a litmus test for being a conservative, then it is very hard for STEM folks to be conservatives.

    Well, back in the 1980s I took the GRE, scored 720 Verbal, 790 Math and 800 Analytical. Those were the scores BEFORE all the SAT and GRE scores were redone. Some small fraction of the top 1%. I have a Ph.D. in Chemistry from a fairly prestigious university.

    Your credentialism is duly noted. And we all know that credentials determine the quality of your arguments.

    Come back when we have a Chemistry question. Otherwise, you advocacy for the greatest of all crimes against humanity renders your opinions toxic.

  189. @Paleo Liberal

    Please explain, if you can, how somebody like yourself who hangs around a lot at iSteve can still think of himself as a Liberal and a Democrat. Are you, like most Liberals, purely driven by emotions? Do you have some illogical but stubborn attachment to an older identity that’s no longer really you? Or are you just not that bright?

    I really don’t get it.
     
    I'm not sure if this is meant as a flame, or as an honest questions.

    Am I just not that bright? Well, back in the 1980s I took the GRE, scored 720 Verbal, 790 Math and 800 Analytical. Those were the scores BEFORE all the SAT and GRE scores were redone. Some small fraction of the top 1%. I have a Ph.D. in Chemistry from a fairly prestigious university.

    Maybe I'm not all that bright. I have certainly known a lot of people smarter than I am. I've worked with researchers in some of the top universities in the world, and they tend to be smarter than I am.

    I left academia in 1999, and I have worked as a computer programmer, mostly in science, but also in other industries such as banking, for about 20 years.

    Pretty much all my life I have hung out with people who were either STEM folks, or children of STEM folks on their way to being STEM folks, STEM students, etc.

    Here is what I have found:

    People involved in STEM tend to be a bit left of center. The political spectrum of STEM people I have known ranges from the far left to the far right, but generally left of center.

    To be fair, there are more conservatives in a science department at any given college or university than in the Identity Studies departments. One time I taught at a university where I was probably the most liberal and least religious prof in the chemistry department, and my best friend was the most conservative and most religious prof in that department. We had offices next to each other, and we found we had a lot in common in our world views aside from religion and politics.

    Generally, STEM folks tend to be technocrats. We look at a pragmatic way of solving issues. One can consider the differences between the past two mayors of NYC: Bloomberg the technocrat (actually a slightly left of center Democrat who posed as a Republican for 12 years) vs. De Blasio the touchy-feeling guy who doesn't care about facts and figures just about feeeeels.

    Most liberals are not technocrats, but neither are most conservatives. I would think the vast majority people who vote in any given election do so more on feelings than on well thought out ideas.

    You may say my experience with STEM people is skewed, because I have been at universities, which are generally left of center, and I have worked in some of the most liberal cities in the US, such as Madison and San Francisco and New York. However, I worked for a company in Tulsa once that made oil wells. If one is going to find conservatives in STEM, that would be the first place to look, right?

    Wrong. There were over a dozen programmers I worked with. ONE of them had voted for Trump. Note that this was the most conservative industry in the most conservative state in the US.

    Let's not forget some of the most brilliant scientists have been very far left. Einstein, Pauling, and many others pop in my head.

    Why are most scientists left of center?

    Well, I could tell you the answer you want to hear, but I am assuming you asked a serious question.

    First off, to a great extent, the conservative movement abandoned science long ago. I grew up in the Bible Belt, and had to deal with smug conservatives who insisted that evolution was a hoax. The state legislature passed a bill, which the governor enthusiastically signed, saying that the schools must teach "creation science". I already knew that in the rural areas no school teacher could ever utter the words "Darwin" or "evolution" in class as still survive.

    What about Wisconsin, where I live now?

    The former executive secretary of the Wisconsin Board of Commissioners of Public Lands, Tia Nelson (daughter of Gaylord Nelson) had a gag order put on her because she dared to answer a science question honestly when asked at a congressional hearing. So she resigned.

    Trump has declared much of the best-established science to be a "Chinese hoax".

    Sorry, but when conservatives make opposition to scientific research a litmus test for being a conservative, then it is very hard for STEM folks to be conservatives.

    Sorry, but when conservatives make opposition to scientific research a litmus test for being a conservative, then it is very hard for STEM folks to be conservatives.

    Do your straw-man arguments make you feel good? Your posting here is therapeutic, no?

  190. @redmudhooch
    "I want people to come into this country in the largest numbers ever."

    "We need people in our country because our unemployment numbers are so low and we have massive numbers of companies coming back into our country — car companies, we have seven car companies coming back in right now and there’s going to be a lot more — we’ve done really well with this, and we need people."

    "I need people coming in because we need people to run the factories and plants and companies that are moving back in. We need people."

    "H1-B holders in the United States can rest assured that changes are soon coming which will bring both simplicity and certainty to your stay, including a potential path to citizenship. We want to encourage talented and highly skilled people to pursue career options in the U.S."

    -Donald Trump

    Just because Republicans pretend to be against something, doesn't make it so. Neither party really wants to stop illegal or legal immigration, bad for business, this is a capitalist country, profit comes first, second, and last. The "international financiers" aka capitalists do not give one shit about your culture, traditions, community, race, family, or country. Its all about the Benjamins as Ilhan says.

    Republicans and Dems take their bribes from the same scumbags. Quite honestly I think Sanders would probably be best when it comes to the immigration issue. But I know right wingers just can't get over that whole scary socialist-communist obsession.

    But I know right wingers just can’t get over that whole scary socialist-communist obsession.

    Yeah, those 100+ million dead that ‘scary socialist-communist’ regimes inflicted on humanity are nothing to worry about, right Spanky?

  191. @Kronos
    Really? Were they urban or rural? Were they demographically static or getting diversified?

    They had been diversified centuries ago.

    • Replies: @Kronos
    My apologies, I’m referring to African American incursions, specifically in the inner cities.
  192. @Charles Erwin Wilson 3

    Republicans will support protectionism while Democrats support labor.
     
    Nope. Democrats will support corporatism because corporate managers are all 'woke,' which gives the managers space to abuse the workers.

    They’re “woke” so they can keep the finance-friendly Clinton Democrat’s in power. You pay Hillary $1000 a day to keep the Bernie away. The electoral math is turning against that strain of the Democratic Party. Imagine how quickly the Democratic Party transformed geographically/ideologically from 1968 to 1992. From Hubert Humphrey’s platform to Bill Clinton. All essentially stemmed from the Boomer’s generational size of between 78-90million. By 1965 they constituted 1/2 of the US population. But with their population declining, New Deal Democrats are likely going to reassert themselves. The joke used to be that Bill Clinton always punches harder to his left than his right. But with boomer decline, the alt-right isn’t the only group (or groups) fleeing the One-Party Two Wings Boomer reservation.

  193. @Reg Cæsar
    They had been diversified centuries ago.

    My apologies, I’m referring to African American incursions, specifically in the inner cities.

  194. @Kronos
    The reason I asked is because I’m always interested in voting history. Trump’s territorial victories overlap very well with Ross Perot hot spots. I’m betting the Republican Party will continue down the road of Perot/Buchanan while the Democrats will go Nader/Sanders. With the Baby Boomers dying off, the parties will revert back to pre-boomer orientations. Republicans will support protectionism while Democrats support labor. When historians look back, they’ll view Baby Boomers combined with 401k/Roth plans as one of most economic disastrous policies in US history.

    The term “Liberal” has a bit of a image problem. Often associated with social science/humanity professors who are often over-emotional and conniving. By “Paleo Liberal” I believe your referring to being a New Deal Democrat? 1960s Baby Boomers greatly tarnished the brand name. Manly Men who were allies with the hardworking deserving poor of the Great Depression. But then the Great Society happened and all is history.

  195. @Paleo Liberal

    Please explain, if you can, how somebody like yourself who hangs around a lot at iSteve can still think of himself as a Liberal and a Democrat. Are you, like most Liberals, purely driven by emotions? Do you have some illogical but stubborn attachment to an older identity that’s no longer really you? Or are you just not that bright?

    I really don’t get it.
     
    I'm not sure if this is meant as a flame, or as an honest questions.

    Am I just not that bright? Well, back in the 1980s I took the GRE, scored 720 Verbal, 790 Math and 800 Analytical. Those were the scores BEFORE all the SAT and GRE scores were redone. Some small fraction of the top 1%. I have a Ph.D. in Chemistry from a fairly prestigious university.

    Maybe I'm not all that bright. I have certainly known a lot of people smarter than I am. I've worked with researchers in some of the top universities in the world, and they tend to be smarter than I am.

    I left academia in 1999, and I have worked as a computer programmer, mostly in science, but also in other industries such as banking, for about 20 years.

    Pretty much all my life I have hung out with people who were either STEM folks, or children of STEM folks on their way to being STEM folks, STEM students, etc.

    Here is what I have found:

    People involved in STEM tend to be a bit left of center. The political spectrum of STEM people I have known ranges from the far left to the far right, but generally left of center.

    To be fair, there are more conservatives in a science department at any given college or university than in the Identity Studies departments. One time I taught at a university where I was probably the most liberal and least religious prof in the chemistry department, and my best friend was the most conservative and most religious prof in that department. We had offices next to each other, and we found we had a lot in common in our world views aside from religion and politics.

    Generally, STEM folks tend to be technocrats. We look at a pragmatic way of solving issues. One can consider the differences between the past two mayors of NYC: Bloomberg the technocrat (actually a slightly left of center Democrat who posed as a Republican for 12 years) vs. De Blasio the touchy-feeling guy who doesn't care about facts and figures just about feeeeels.

    Most liberals are not technocrats, but neither are most conservatives. I would think the vast majority people who vote in any given election do so more on feelings than on well thought out ideas.

    You may say my experience with STEM people is skewed, because I have been at universities, which are generally left of center, and I have worked in some of the most liberal cities in the US, such as Madison and San Francisco and New York. However, I worked for a company in Tulsa once that made oil wells. If one is going to find conservatives in STEM, that would be the first place to look, right?

    Wrong. There were over a dozen programmers I worked with. ONE of them had voted for Trump. Note that this was the most conservative industry in the most conservative state in the US.

    Let's not forget some of the most brilliant scientists have been very far left. Einstein, Pauling, and many others pop in my head.

    Why are most scientists left of center?

    Well, I could tell you the answer you want to hear, but I am assuming you asked a serious question.

    First off, to a great extent, the conservative movement abandoned science long ago. I grew up in the Bible Belt, and had to deal with smug conservatives who insisted that evolution was a hoax. The state legislature passed a bill, which the governor enthusiastically signed, saying that the schools must teach "creation science". I already knew that in the rural areas no school teacher could ever utter the words "Darwin" or "evolution" in class as still survive.

    What about Wisconsin, where I live now?

    The former executive secretary of the Wisconsin Board of Commissioners of Public Lands, Tia Nelson (daughter of Gaylord Nelson) had a gag order put on her because she dared to answer a science question honestly when asked at a congressional hearing. So she resigned.

    Trump has declared much of the best-established science to be a "Chinese hoax".

    Sorry, but when conservatives make opposition to scientific research a litmus test for being a conservative, then it is very hard for STEM folks to be conservatives.

    The term “Liberal” has a bit of a image problem. Often associated with social science/humanity professors who are often over-emotional and conniving. By “Paleo Liberal” I believe your referring to being a New Deal Democrat? 1960s Baby Boomers greatly tarnished the brand name. Manly Men who were allies with the hardworking deserving poor of the Great Depression. But then the Great Society happened and all is history.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    But then the Great Society happened and all is history.
     
    What consequences did the Great Society have?
  196. Anonymous[126] • Disclaimer says:
    @Kronos
    The term “Liberal” has a bit of a image problem. Often associated with social science/humanity professors who are often over-emotional and conniving. By “Paleo Liberal” I believe your referring to being a New Deal Democrat? 1960s Baby Boomers greatly tarnished the brand name. Manly Men who were allies with the hardworking deserving poor of the Great Depression. But then the Great Society happened and all is history.

    But then the Great Society happened and all is history.

    What consequences did the Great Society have?

    • Replies: @Kronos
    The Great Society constituted a multifaceted series of Vietnam-like quagmires. It utilized wide sweeping legislation to effect housing, crime, and employment. The program worked under the assumption that humans are interchangeable and IQ is environmentally determined (Behavioralism.) Ultimately, African American low IQ killed liberalism, leading to the programs massive failure and massive backlash (or blacklash.) See Ronald Reagan and eventually Bill Clinton. The Great Society was supposed to lead to secular rapture but led to a icky hell in one of Dante’s Section 8 Housing Inferno apartments.

    1) Offshoring of Jobs

    American manufacturing firms partially moved abroad (China) to avoid disparate impact lawsuits. They were originally located in the cities. But when significant numbers of blacks moved it, it became impossible. Try building cars when 1/2 the population in functionally retarded and can’t read. This is what happened with Detroit, currently 80% black. Real estate firms may actively discourage manufacturing industries because they’ll attract low-IQ workers. Think Grapes of Wrath or the African American “Great Migration.” The blacks had to get into northern inner cities somehow. Currently, service sector jobs are preferred because their often IQ dependent and can indirectly deter low IQ blacks without triggering too many Civil Right tripwires. In Philip Roth’s “American Pastoral” the Jewish “Swede” owned a glove company and complained about the impact of high crime (read black) on his business. Workers were scared to come into work and dramatically raised costs.

    2) Wholesale Imports of Immigrants

    Trump wants to build a wall to keep Latin American Immigrants out. The former bastions of Liberalism want to make a wall of Mexicans to keep blacks out of there zip codes. Remember, blacks are roughly 13% of the population but commit 50% of all national homicides. Often against other blacks with high collateral damage. Like how Ron Unz pointed out, its black crime and everyone else. Blacks kill home prices. From the Watts Riots (1960s) to the Rodney King Riots (1990s) LA Liberals were increasingly encouraged to allow massive legal and illegal immigration to wash out the black underclass.

    3) Crime

    I need to go to the gym soon, so just watch the “Dirty Hairy” and “Death Wish” film series. Also “Fort Apache - The Bronx.”

    4) Education

    Education was likely most effected by the Great Society. Remember, the results from “The Bell Curve” (1994) was supposed to be scientifically impossible from a 1960s standpoint. Education was supposed to determine IQ, not the other way around. You have a whole industry (education) that’s essentially pulling a “Young Goodman Brown” of publicly supporting liberal orthodoxy but are really worshipping Satan underneath the town church.

    https://youtu.be/lOmVbkyJwaw

  197. @peterike

    Cutting funding for education and roads probably lost the last gubernatorial election for Scott Walker. People up here like having good schools

     

    The effect of "more funding" on having "good schools" is exactly zero. In fact, it's often below zero because more funding leads to wasting money on stupid initiatives, fads and administrators that are counter-productive. The best way to improve most public schools would be to cut their budgets by 50% and tell them to figure it the hell out. Education is the most over-rated good sold in America, but people fall for the con, especially women.

    Roads, on the other hand, are important.

    Education is the most over-rated good sold in America, but people fall for the con, especially women.

    Women fall for a lot stupid stuff, because feelz.

    There is no demonstrated relationship between student achievement and $ spent per student. There is between student achievement and Magic Dirt.

  198. @Anonymous

    But then the Great Society happened and all is history.
     
    What consequences did the Great Society have?

    The Great Society constituted a multifaceted series of Vietnam-like quagmires. It utilized wide sweeping legislation to effect housing, crime, and employment. The program worked under the assumption that humans are interchangeable and IQ is environmentally determined (Behavioralism.) Ultimately, African American low IQ killed liberalism, leading to the programs massive failure and massive backlash (or blacklash.) See Ronald Reagan and eventually Bill Clinton. The Great Society was supposed to lead to secular rapture but led to a icky hell in one of Dante’s Section 8 Housing Inferno apartments.

    1) Offshoring of Jobs

    American manufacturing firms partially moved abroad (China) to avoid disparate impact lawsuits. They were originally located in the cities. But when significant numbers of blacks moved it, it became impossible. Try building cars when 1/2 the population in functionally retarded and can’t read. This is what happened with Detroit, currently 80% black. Real estate firms may actively discourage manufacturing industries because they’ll attract low-IQ workers. Think Grapes of Wrath or the African American “Great Migration.” The blacks had to get into northern inner cities somehow. Currently, service sector jobs are preferred because their often IQ dependent and can indirectly deter low IQ blacks without triggering too many Civil Right tripwires. In Philip Roth’s “American Pastoral” the Jewish “Swede” owned a glove company and complained about the impact of high crime (read black) on his business. Workers were scared to come into work and dramatically raised costs.

    2) Wholesale Imports of Immigrants

    Trump wants to build a wall to keep Latin American Immigrants out. The former bastions of Liberalism want to make a wall of Mexicans to keep blacks out of there zip codes. Remember, blacks are roughly 13% of the population but commit 50% of all national homicides. Often against other blacks with high collateral damage. Like how Ron Unz pointed out, its black crime and everyone else. Blacks kill home prices. From the Watts Riots (1960s) to the Rodney King Riots (1990s) LA Liberals were increasingly encouraged to allow massive legal and illegal immigration to wash out the black underclass.

    3) Crime

    I need to go to the gym soon, so just watch the “Dirty Hairy” and “Death Wish” film series. Also “Fort Apache – The Bronx.”

    4) Education

    Education was likely most effected by the Great Society. Remember, the results from “The Bell Curve” (1994) was supposed to be scientifically impossible from a 1960s standpoint. Education was supposed to determine IQ, not the other way around. You have a whole industry (education) that’s essentially pulling a “Young Goodman Brown” of publicly supporting liberal orthodoxy but are really worshipping Satan underneath the town church.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Thank you.

    But when significant numbers of blacks moved it, it became impossible
     
    Why did blacks move in?
  199. @Paleo Liberal

    Please explain, if you can, how somebody like yourself who hangs around a lot at iSteve can still think of himself as a Liberal and a Democrat. Are you, like most Liberals, purely driven by emotions? Do you have some illogical but stubborn attachment to an older identity that’s no longer really you? Or are you just not that bright?

    I really don’t get it.
     
    I'm not sure if this is meant as a flame, or as an honest questions.

    Am I just not that bright? Well, back in the 1980s I took the GRE, scored 720 Verbal, 790 Math and 800 Analytical. Those were the scores BEFORE all the SAT and GRE scores were redone. Some small fraction of the top 1%. I have a Ph.D. in Chemistry from a fairly prestigious university.

    Maybe I'm not all that bright. I have certainly known a lot of people smarter than I am. I've worked with researchers in some of the top universities in the world, and they tend to be smarter than I am.

    I left academia in 1999, and I have worked as a computer programmer, mostly in science, but also in other industries such as banking, for about 20 years.

    Pretty much all my life I have hung out with people who were either STEM folks, or children of STEM folks on their way to being STEM folks, STEM students, etc.

    Here is what I have found:

    People involved in STEM tend to be a bit left of center. The political spectrum of STEM people I have known ranges from the far left to the far right, but generally left of center.

    To be fair, there are more conservatives in a science department at any given college or university than in the Identity Studies departments. One time I taught at a university where I was probably the most liberal and least religious prof in the chemistry department, and my best friend was the most conservative and most religious prof in that department. We had offices next to each other, and we found we had a lot in common in our world views aside from religion and politics.

    Generally, STEM folks tend to be technocrats. We look at a pragmatic way of solving issues. One can consider the differences between the past two mayors of NYC: Bloomberg the technocrat (actually a slightly left of center Democrat who posed as a Republican for 12 years) vs. De Blasio the touchy-feeling guy who doesn't care about facts and figures just about feeeeels.

    Most liberals are not technocrats, but neither are most conservatives. I would think the vast majority people who vote in any given election do so more on feelings than on well thought out ideas.

    You may say my experience with STEM people is skewed, because I have been at universities, which are generally left of center, and I have worked in some of the most liberal cities in the US, such as Madison and San Francisco and New York. However, I worked for a company in Tulsa once that made oil wells. If one is going to find conservatives in STEM, that would be the first place to look, right?

    Wrong. There were over a dozen programmers I worked with. ONE of them had voted for Trump. Note that this was the most conservative industry in the most conservative state in the US.

    Let's not forget some of the most brilliant scientists have been very far left. Einstein, Pauling, and many others pop in my head.

    Why are most scientists left of center?

    Well, I could tell you the answer you want to hear, but I am assuming you asked a serious question.

    First off, to a great extent, the conservative movement abandoned science long ago. I grew up in the Bible Belt, and had to deal with smug conservatives who insisted that evolution was a hoax. The state legislature passed a bill, which the governor enthusiastically signed, saying that the schools must teach "creation science". I already knew that in the rural areas no school teacher could ever utter the words "Darwin" or "evolution" in class as still survive.

    What about Wisconsin, where I live now?

    The former executive secretary of the Wisconsin Board of Commissioners of Public Lands, Tia Nelson (daughter of Gaylord Nelson) had a gag order put on her because she dared to answer a science question honestly when asked at a congressional hearing. So she resigned.

    Trump has declared much of the best-established science to be a "Chinese hoax".

    Sorry, but when conservatives make opposition to scientific research a litmus test for being a conservative, then it is very hard for STEM folks to be conservatives.

    Thank you for taking the time to answer my question at length, but it wasn’t very satisfying. As Charles Erwin Wilson 3 noted, your final argument about “why I’m not a Conservative” was not only a strawman argument, but one based on a Liberal stereotyping. Really, you went with the “Conservatives don’t believe in evolution!” argument? Sheesh.

    Well here’s one for you: Progressives don’t believe in it either, because blank-slatism is the most anti-Evolution position you can have. Creationism is more respectable than blank-slatism. At least you can’t definitely disprove a magical Creation, but blank-slatism has been disproved for centuries, yet millions believe it, and what’s more, want people like me dead because they believe it.

    And this:

    Trump has declared much of the best-established science to be a “Chinese hoax”.

    You refer to “climate science” I believe? If you consider Global Warmism to be “the best-established science” then I don’t know what to say. It’s a silly farce. And Trump, in his usual mish-mashy fashion, managed to be both correct and off target at the same time. He probably once heard about how billionaire oil-man and Canadian Commie Maurice Strong was behind the initiation of the Global Warming Scheme (and it IS a scheme), which he did indeed kick off in many ways with the Agenda 21 initiative in 1992, when he was living in China. Like many of us, Trump squashes different ideas together.

    So it wasn’t a “Chinese hoax,” but it was very much a hoax that started with a guy in China. So there you are. Trump is nearly always more right than wrong, but sometimes you have to unravel what he says.

    Now to be fair, I don’t like the anti-evolutionist Christians either, because they hurt the cause. I think they make much too easy targets for the mocking media, who quite deliberately uses this small group of people to paint all Conservatives as “anti-science.” Seems like you took the bait. Oh well.

  200. @Paleo Liberal

    Please explain, if you can, how somebody like yourself who hangs around a lot at iSteve can still think of himself as a Liberal and a Democrat. Are you, like most Liberals, purely driven by emotions? Do you have some illogical but stubborn attachment to an older identity that’s no longer really you? Or are you just not that bright?

    I really don’t get it.
     
    I'm not sure if this is meant as a flame, or as an honest questions.

    Am I just not that bright? Well, back in the 1980s I took the GRE, scored 720 Verbal, 790 Math and 800 Analytical. Those were the scores BEFORE all the SAT and GRE scores were redone. Some small fraction of the top 1%. I have a Ph.D. in Chemistry from a fairly prestigious university.

    Maybe I'm not all that bright. I have certainly known a lot of people smarter than I am. I've worked with researchers in some of the top universities in the world, and they tend to be smarter than I am.

    I left academia in 1999, and I have worked as a computer programmer, mostly in science, but also in other industries such as banking, for about 20 years.

    Pretty much all my life I have hung out with people who were either STEM folks, or children of STEM folks on their way to being STEM folks, STEM students, etc.

    Here is what I have found:

    People involved in STEM tend to be a bit left of center. The political spectrum of STEM people I have known ranges from the far left to the far right, but generally left of center.

    To be fair, there are more conservatives in a science department at any given college or university than in the Identity Studies departments. One time I taught at a university where I was probably the most liberal and least religious prof in the chemistry department, and my best friend was the most conservative and most religious prof in that department. We had offices next to each other, and we found we had a lot in common in our world views aside from religion and politics.

    Generally, STEM folks tend to be technocrats. We look at a pragmatic way of solving issues. One can consider the differences between the past two mayors of NYC: Bloomberg the technocrat (actually a slightly left of center Democrat who posed as a Republican for 12 years) vs. De Blasio the touchy-feeling guy who doesn't care about facts and figures just about feeeeels.

    Most liberals are not technocrats, but neither are most conservatives. I would think the vast majority people who vote in any given election do so more on feelings than on well thought out ideas.

    You may say my experience with STEM people is skewed, because I have been at universities, which are generally left of center, and I have worked in some of the most liberal cities in the US, such as Madison and San Francisco and New York. However, I worked for a company in Tulsa once that made oil wells. If one is going to find conservatives in STEM, that would be the first place to look, right?

    Wrong. There were over a dozen programmers I worked with. ONE of them had voted for Trump. Note that this was the most conservative industry in the most conservative state in the US.

    Let's not forget some of the most brilliant scientists have been very far left. Einstein, Pauling, and many others pop in my head.

    Why are most scientists left of center?

    Well, I could tell you the answer you want to hear, but I am assuming you asked a serious question.

    First off, to a great extent, the conservative movement abandoned science long ago. I grew up in the Bible Belt, and had to deal with smug conservatives who insisted that evolution was a hoax. The state legislature passed a bill, which the governor enthusiastically signed, saying that the schools must teach "creation science". I already knew that in the rural areas no school teacher could ever utter the words "Darwin" or "evolution" in class as still survive.

    What about Wisconsin, where I live now?

    The former executive secretary of the Wisconsin Board of Commissioners of Public Lands, Tia Nelson (daughter of Gaylord Nelson) had a gag order put on her because she dared to answer a science question honestly when asked at a congressional hearing. So she resigned.

    Trump has declared much of the best-established science to be a "Chinese hoax".

    Sorry, but when conservatives make opposition to scientific research a litmus test for being a conservative, then it is very hard for STEM folks to be conservatives.

    “I grew up in the Bible Belt, and had to deal with smug conservatives who insisted that evolution was a hoax.”

    Man, I remember all those fights in middle school. Now everything is upside down with the “more than two genders” stuff running around. They’ll come after you for disagreeing just like the Baptists of old.

  201. Anonymous[378] • Disclaimer says:
    @Kronos
    The Great Society constituted a multifaceted series of Vietnam-like quagmires. It utilized wide sweeping legislation to effect housing, crime, and employment. The program worked under the assumption that humans are interchangeable and IQ is environmentally determined (Behavioralism.) Ultimately, African American low IQ killed liberalism, leading to the programs massive failure and massive backlash (or blacklash.) See Ronald Reagan and eventually Bill Clinton. The Great Society was supposed to lead to secular rapture but led to a icky hell in one of Dante’s Section 8 Housing Inferno apartments.

    1) Offshoring of Jobs

    American manufacturing firms partially moved abroad (China) to avoid disparate impact lawsuits. They were originally located in the cities. But when significant numbers of blacks moved it, it became impossible. Try building cars when 1/2 the population in functionally retarded and can’t read. This is what happened with Detroit, currently 80% black. Real estate firms may actively discourage manufacturing industries because they’ll attract low-IQ workers. Think Grapes of Wrath or the African American “Great Migration.” The blacks had to get into northern inner cities somehow. Currently, service sector jobs are preferred because their often IQ dependent and can indirectly deter low IQ blacks without triggering too many Civil Right tripwires. In Philip Roth’s “American Pastoral” the Jewish “Swede” owned a glove company and complained about the impact of high crime (read black) on his business. Workers were scared to come into work and dramatically raised costs.

    2) Wholesale Imports of Immigrants

    Trump wants to build a wall to keep Latin American Immigrants out. The former bastions of Liberalism want to make a wall of Mexicans to keep blacks out of there zip codes. Remember, blacks are roughly 13% of the population but commit 50% of all national homicides. Often against other blacks with high collateral damage. Like how Ron Unz pointed out, its black crime and everyone else. Blacks kill home prices. From the Watts Riots (1960s) to the Rodney King Riots (1990s) LA Liberals were increasingly encouraged to allow massive legal and illegal immigration to wash out the black underclass.

    3) Crime

    I need to go to the gym soon, so just watch the “Dirty Hairy” and “Death Wish” film series. Also “Fort Apache - The Bronx.”

    4) Education

    Education was likely most effected by the Great Society. Remember, the results from “The Bell Curve” (1994) was supposed to be scientifically impossible from a 1960s standpoint. Education was supposed to determine IQ, not the other way around. You have a whole industry (education) that’s essentially pulling a “Young Goodman Brown” of publicly supporting liberal orthodoxy but are really worshipping Satan underneath the town church.

    https://youtu.be/lOmVbkyJwaw

    Thank you.

    But when significant numbers of blacks moved it, it became impossible

    Why did blacks move in?

    • Replies: @Kronos
    Primarily for manufacturing jobs. Please read the link below.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Migration_(African_American)

    It’ll provide a basic understanding of the population outflows of the South. Northern industrialists required cheap labor after external immigration was curtailed by the 1920 Wall Street bombing. They set their sights on bringing poor black sharecroppers to make up the loss in Southern European immigration. They thought Irish and Italian criminality was bad, but they eventually found something far worse.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_Street_bombing
  202. @Anonymous
    Thank you.

    But when significant numbers of blacks moved it, it became impossible
     
    Why did blacks move in?

    Primarily for manufacturing jobs. Please read the link below.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Migration_(African_American)

    It’ll provide a basic understanding of the population outflows of the South. Northern industrialists required cheap labor after external immigration was curtailed by the 1920 Wall Street bombing. They set their sights on bringing poor black sharecroppers to make up the loss in Southern European immigration. They thought Irish and Italian criminality was bad, but they eventually found something far worse.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_Street_bombing

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