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iSteve commenter Altai does a deep dive into the hyping of Juneteenth:

With Juneteenth having come from nowhere are being positioned as ‘black 4th of July’ … I know Steve likes Google trends.

Juneteenth started to spike in 2018. Before that it was a very obscure event that centred on the region around Galveston. It still has the highest search terms in Texas.

Commenter eee says:

I did a similar search on Google Trends but compared it to Arbor Day. Until Trump was elected their popularity was about the same.

Back to Altai:

It looks like it was the episode of Black-ish (Titled ‘Juneteenth’) that aired in October of 2017 that set things off. As with Steve’s greater premise of the mixed-race supplying most of the rage, the series is stars and seems to have it’s writing significantly influenced by Tracee Ellis Ross (Much like it’s sister series The Goldbergs, all the characters will sometimes break character and speak in an odd kind of house style and the house style on Black-ish sounds like Tracee Ellis Ross), the daughter of Diana Ross and her Jewish producer Robert Silberstein. (Where the title comes from. Even within the first 30 seconds of the episode, her resentful mother-in-law casually calls her a ‘Halfrican’)

There is a significant bump the next June in 2018. And an even bigger one in 2019. The media catch up in 2019 after not being a part of the bump in 2018.

The episode is very interesting to watch in 2020.

You can view the whole episode here:

It actually involves the main character who is an adman trying to come up with a marketing campaign for Juneteenth. Starts with the children acting in a strawman Columbus Day play that depicts him getting along with the natives just fine, organised by the nice white lady teacher who wants to be a good ally but, of course, fundamentally can’t by virtue of her whiteness (And who must be condescended to despite good intentions) and inexplicably doesn’t understand why it’d be offensive to anyone to depict Columbus in this way. There is a cutaway Hamilton-esque stunning and brave deconstruction of Columbus as if we didn’t already know these things about Columbus. As if white America was celebrating Columbus enslaving the population of Hispaniola. As if white America outside some Italians was ever really celebrating Columbus Day at all. It then also features a cutaway musical section. (Could a Juneteenth musical do better than Hamilton?)

It also contains this line ‘I realised that for Juneteenth to live, Columbus Day had to die’. Like an echo of things to come 2.5 years later. But I like how they don’t even touch on it how the KKK and the woke both opposed the statues of Columbus like the one in Virginia that got destroyed that the KKK opposed 100 years prior. The lines about Columbus, including him having never set foot in what is now the US are exactly the reasons presented by WASPs and Irish-Americans in opposing to Columbus statues that were obviously just ethnic totems for Italian-Americans.

There are plenty of other lines that are Sailerific or amusing to read in 2020.



The white coworkers complain that MLK day and black history month are times to celebrate blacks.

Guy from the ‘FBI open up’ meme, hereafter referred to as ‘Dre’: ‘Juneteenth is a 150 year old tradition that no one’s heard about, not even my black kids’

There’s a scene where the white characters suggest this is just a phase like him wearing kente cloth. (Visions of the House Democratic leadership borrowing the kente cloth of the CBC and getting hammered by every side for being cringe.)

Clueless white characters mention MLK day and black history month, black comic relief character adds:
Deon Cole’s character: ‘And Reparations Day. That’s when in times of civil unrest we start urban bonfires and acquire discount electronics.’

Haven Monahan: ‘Are you talking about looting?’

Dre: ‘The truth is, we don’t have anything that celebrates the end of slavery’

Haven Monahan’s dad: ‘MLK day is a pretty big umbrella there. Like Mary Poppins big.’

Dre: ‘This is insane. You don’t tell white people or Jewish people that they only deserve one holiday.’

Haven Monahan’s nerdy friend: ‘Well, half that statement is true. *Chuckles*’ (Never forget blacks and Jews are on the same side viewer! In what America do Jews only have one holiday recognised?)

The other half of the episode also features a cringy cutaway musical set in Galveston just prior to Juneteenth which contains the weird, actually quite anti-Marxist talking points that African-Americans ‘built America’ when in fact chattel slavery was a good way for some men to amass wealth but ultimately retarded the growth and development of industry and was not indispensable to the US economy as the Civil War and ending of slavery demonstrated. It certainly didn’t pay for the skyscrapers of Manhattan. It’s odd that no economist had this notion occur to them despite them often being very sympathetic to the civil rights movement and black Americans social and economic marginalisation.

Dre (Musical): ‘It’s time to vote for me, take part in this democracy’

Tracee Ellis Ross (Musical): ‘Tear them freedom papers up please cause we don’t need to show no IDs’

Will Smith’s sassy aunt (Musical): ‘It’s June 19th we celebrate’

Morpheus (Musical): ‘Grab a blonde and miscegenate’

Well that escalated quickly…

… Dumb son (Musical): ‘Pyramids… *Gets cut off*’

Will Smith’s sassy aunt (Musical): ‘No, sorry our Hebrew brothers get credit for that!’ – This really stands out as jarring, particularly given the line mentioning Jews before. It isn’t historically controversial to say there is no evidence that the Israelites were enslaved to build the pyramids and the consensus today is that the builders weren’t slaves at all or if, the slaves were few in number. Nor is there any evidence that ancient Israelites were the builders, slave or no. Did I mention Tracee Ellis Ross has a Jewish father?

Dre: ‘This is what America always does, we think if we don’t acknowledge something it didn’t happen. Sure Columbus’ men chopped people’s hands off and made them wear them around their neck. But sure, let’s not talk about that, because that happened so long ago’

Well, it did happen a long time ago and in a place that isn’t the US. Columbus Day was invented by Italian Americans to do the ‘we built America’ bit he himself is doing. It doesn’t mean anything to non-Italian Americans and his crimes aren’t a blood guilt that can be reasonably applied to white America. And he was censured in his own time for them. What is he asking for? Essentially the character wants self-determination and independence but we don’t have a defined homeland for African Americans and to say so isn’t seen as PC.

Dre: ‘…What do I want? *stutters* What do I want?! You know what? I’m tired of wasting my breath on ya’ll. I’m out.’

Tracee Ellis Ross: ‘Juneteenth? When did Juneteenth become important to you Dre, you don’t even celebrate Kwanzaa’

Dre: ‘That’s because they make us feel like it’s whack. They make us feel like all of our stuff is whack ‘ – Yes, black music, culture and fashion has never been influential. Maybe they just think Kwanza is a weird attempt to create a ‘black Christmas’ and find it silly. Because it is.

Morpheus: ‘Kwanza is whack! I know the guy who invented Kwanza, owes me $35.’

Dre: ‘Pops, think about it. Kwanza is no crazier than Christmas.’

The whole thing is very eerie to watch in 2020. The whole conflating of Columbus with slavery in the US is weird. (Outside just being anti-white and seeing Columbus as the start of ‘white America’.)

Just that line ‘I realised that for Juneteenth to live, Columbus day had to die’.

 
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  1. Sailing out across a vast ocean in 1492 and landing on an unkown shore or having some one reading a letter about emancipation seem equal. At least in today’s crazy world

    • Agree: Ian Smith
    • Replies: @anon
    @Buffalo Joe

    But it ended up that way by accident. Columbus thought he had landed in India (Indies) and was disappointed it was a wasteland. So, more of getting lost/disoriented and still surviving story rather than voyage of discovery like Vasco da Gama, Magellan or Francis Drake.

    Replies: @Allen, @slumber_j, @Buffalo Joe

  2. Various communities of blacks have different dates. In Western Kentucky, it is the 8th of August.

  3. “It isn’t historically controversial to say there is no evidence that the Israelites were enslaved to build the pyramids and the consensus today is that the builders weren’t slaves at all or if, the slaves were few in number. Nor is there any evidence that ancient Israelites were the builders, slave or no.”

    Hold up. The Old Testament never states that the Israelites built the Pyramids while they were enslaved in Egypt. Cecil B. DeMille’s The Ten Commandments actually gets that part historically accurate. You don’t see them building the Pyramids. Instead they are put to work building cities for the Pharaohs, such as their treasure cities, cities to commemorate their victories on the battlefield, and of course building the Pharaoh’s images and statues to them. As the Pyramids were built roughly about 4,500yrs ago, and the Israelites were enslaved roughly about 1200 yrs afterwards.

    In its heyday of popularity, (ca. 194o’s -1980’s), Columbus Day was probably more celebrated by whites than Juneteenth was celebrated by blacks. It was a major event in world history, and still is so today, like it or not. Chris, representing the West, set foot on the continent of North America. Yes, so had Leif Erikson a few centuries previously. Unlike Leif, Columbus and the power behind him, Spain, was looking for a trade route to the Orient as Islam controlled most of the major land routes. What they got, most of the New World, helped cement their status as a world power for about a century.

    • Replies: @Cortes
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    The crushing of the revolting Popular Front For The Liberation Of Judaea (or was it The Judaean Popular Liberation Front?) is associated with the construction of one classical monument: the Flavian Amphitheatre...

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colosseum

    , @Anon
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Manual labor? Tell me another one.

    , @SimpleSong
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    True, but there's actually no evidence that the Jews were enslaved in Egypt, ever. While pretty much all historians agree there was a historical figure named Jesus and a historical figure named Muhammad (regardless of what you think about their divinity, they certainly existed as real people), most also agree that the Exodus narrative is just...totally made up. Likely adapted from earlier sources during the Babylonian captivity, along with the rest of the Pentateuch, meaning monotheistic Judaism is actually not all that old, about 500 years older than Christianity.

    Looking at them as historical documents: the New Testament names the provincial Roman ruler (Pontius Pilate) and has a number of references to historical figures that are known from other sources (such as John the Baptist.) Likewise there are non-Christian pagan sources that discuss the development of early Christianity.

    In contrast, Exodus talks a lot about "the Pharoh". Which Pharoh? Never says. There are no details in the narrative that historians can link to any particular period in Egyptian history, it's just generic 'Egypt.'. Likewise no documents from Egyptian or other sources ever mention enslaved Jews or a slave revolt or anything of that nature.

    So the whole thing is probably a metaphor, perhaps 'Egypt' was a stand in for another imperial power (perhaps Babylon since this was likely written down in the middle of the Babylonian captivity.) Similar to how in Revelation "Babylon" is a code word/stand in for "Rome," obviously talking about the destruction of Rome by god would have had some consequences for the early Christians...

    Anyway Judaism has much less historicity than either Christianity or Islam, or Buddhism, for that matter. If I'm not mistaken the consensus is that it evolved out of polytheistic Caananite religions during the bronze age; El was the name of the chief god but a variety of gods were worshiped (Baal for example), Yahweh was another god that was particularly revered in the kingdoms of Judah and Israel, analagous to how Athena was revered in Athens. Eventually Yahweh came to be seen as the chief god, then the only god, approximately at the time the Old testament was being finalized in approx. 500 BC. As part of this process they were integrating a bunch of older sources and were trying to shoehorn the narrative of Yahweh as the main and only god into some older narratives.

    So in Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuterotomy, in the original Hebrew apparently there are passages that refer to god as "El", and then nearly identical passages that say the same thing but refer to god as "Yahweh." (I don't speak Hebrew so can't confirm, of course all English translations just say "The Lord" for both El and Yahweh...) This residual ambiguity is likely leftover from some very contentious committee meetings.

    Anyway, takeaways: Jews were never slaves in Egypt, ever. Moses and Abraham likely did not exist as historical figures. Monotheistic Judaism is only about 500 years older than Christianity, prior to this the Canaanite kingdoms of Israel and Judah were polytheistic. Monotheism was not a new invention but rather the promotion of the local god of Israel and Judah into the top spot.

    This is why when Jews make fun of Mormons for believing god came to upstate New York and showed Joseph Smith some golden plates, I roll my eyes. Judaism is super-duper made up, much more so than most religions. There really was a guy named Jesus, he really did get crucified by the Romans. Some people believe he was he the son of god, some people believe he was a prophet, some people believe he was just a person, but he definitely existed. Same deal with Muhammad. On the other hand, no, there was never a guy named Moses who led the Jews out of Egypt. There is zero historical evidence for anything remotely resembling that occuring.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Allen, @James O'Meara, @Kratoklastes

  4. Much like it’s [sic] sister series The Goldbergs

    Besides both airing on ABC, the two shows are unrelated.

  5. Here in North Jersey, I had never heard of Juneteenth as of a month ago, but two weeks ago it was all I heard about,

    • Agree: Kyle
    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    @ScarletNumber

    Englewood has had Juneteenth celebrations of some sort for the last 10 years or so.

    https://m.facebook.com/EnglewoodJuneteenthCelebrations/about

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

  6. Kwanzaa was a bust. Try, try again…

    • Replies: @Inquiring Mind
    @Reg Cæsar

    "Festivus" is a parody of Kwanzaa? Instead of being some odd Christmas-time and Christmas-substitute specific to a minority group, it serves that purpose for one fictitious Italian-Jewish family?

    How did Larry David ever get away with that one?

    Replies: @fish

  7. I find the irony and humor in celebrating a day that really, other than Frederick Douglass, very few if any black folk made possible. It was all white Republicans.

    • Replies: @syonredux
    @Ron Mexico


    I find the irony and humor in celebrating a day that really, other than Frederick Douglass, very few if any black folk made possible. It was all white Republicans.
     
    Which is part of the problem. Blacks wish that they had won their freedom in some Haitian-style revolt, but they know that that isn't true, that all of the great milestones in their liberation (ending the Atlantic slave trade, the abolition of slavery, overturning Jim Crow) were achieved by White people. That knowledge breeds resentment.....

    Replies: @Lockean Proviso

  8. OT Remember when “Columbus was actually a Jew” was a thing? No longer, apparently.

    The Forward in 2008: https://forward.com/news/israel/12638/christopher-columbus-jew-01257/

    The Forward in 2017: https://forward.com/opinion/384671/no-columbus-was-not-jewish-and-neither-is-columbus-day/

    • LOL: Pheasant
  9. Juneteenth has been a state holiday in Texas since 1980. So it’s not exactly new.

  10. @Buffalo Joe
    Sailing out across a vast ocean in 1492 and landing on an unkown shore or having some one reading a letter about emancipation seem equal. At least in today's crazy world

    Replies: @anon

    But it ended up that way by accident. Columbus thought he had landed in India (Indies) and was disappointed it was a wasteland. So, more of getting lost/disoriented and still surviving story rather than voyage of discovery like Vasco da Gama, Magellan or Francis Drake.

    • Replies: @Allen
    @anon

    True Columbus wasn't setting out to discover a new continent, but he did have the courage to try an uncharted route, and his overarching motive was to raise funds to finance a new crusade to liberate the holy land from the Muslims.

    Meanwhile the dire financial situation in Spain at the time coupled with fears of a returning Muslim invasion adds a nice dramatic touch to the story. Ferdinand and Isabella were making a gamble by financing Columbus and there was no guarantee that it was going to pay off.

    Regardless, a much more heroic story than reading a letter about the emancipation proclamation.

    , @slumber_j
    @anon

    ikr That's a really good point that I've never heard before.

    I love your handle BTW!!

    Anyway, do you think Juneteenth is as retarded as I think it is? As a name, I mean. And also as a concept, for that matter... I value your opinion. lmk

    Replies: @Kyle

    , @Buffalo Joe
    @anon

    TwoTwoFive, an accident but he replicated the feat several times. Have to give all those sailors credit. If I gave you a replica of his fleet, would you sail to Europe or even across Lake Superior, using only his rudimentary sailing instruments.

  11. Columbus Day really should be Queen Isabella Day. Unified Spain, expelled Islam, financed Columbus, fixed Catholicisms future on the New World, brought about the colonization of the Americas. No Isabella, no Columbus.

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
    @Ron Mexico

    If you tried to do that, all you'd hear about is "expulsion and forced conversion of Jews".

  12. It also contains this line ‘I realised that for Juneteenth to live, Columbus Day had to die’.

    Protesters topple Christopher Columbus statue in Baltimore, roll it into harbor

    • Thanks: Rob
    • Replies: @For what it's worth
    @Reg Cæsar

    You'd think that Nancy D'Alesandro Pelosi, daughter of one Italian-American Mayor of Baltimore and sister to another, would be upset about this . . .

  13. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    "It isn’t historically controversial to say there is no evidence that the Israelites were enslaved to build the pyramids and the consensus today is that the builders weren’t slaves at all or if, the slaves were few in number. Nor is there any evidence that ancient Israelites were the builders, slave or no."

    Hold up. The Old Testament never states that the Israelites built the Pyramids while they were enslaved in Egypt. Cecil B. DeMille's The Ten Commandments actually gets that part historically accurate. You don't see them building the Pyramids. Instead they are put to work building cities for the Pharaohs, such as their treasure cities, cities to commemorate their victories on the battlefield, and of course building the Pharaoh's images and statues to them. As the Pyramids were built roughly about 4,500yrs ago, and the Israelites were enslaved roughly about 1200 yrs afterwards.

    In its heyday of popularity, (ca. 194o's -1980's), Columbus Day was probably more celebrated by whites than Juneteenth was celebrated by blacks. It was a major event in world history, and still is so today, like it or not. Chris, representing the West, set foot on the continent of North America. Yes, so had Leif Erikson a few centuries previously. Unlike Leif, Columbus and the power behind him, Spain, was looking for a trade route to the Orient as Islam controlled most of the major land routes. What they got, most of the New World, helped cement their status as a world power for about a century.

    Replies: @Cortes, @Anon, @SimpleSong

    The crushing of the revolting Popular Front For The Liberation Of Judaea (or was it The Judaean Popular Liberation Front?) is associated with the construction of one classical monument: the Flavian Amphitheatre…

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colosseum

  14. Never forget blacks and Jews are on the same side[,] viewer!

    • Replies: @Cortes
    @Reg Cæsar

    Gotta love the colour of the kneepads on Melvin Van Peebles.

    , @duncsbaby
    @Reg Cæsar

    Written by John Hughes the great 80's movie director of Sixteen Candles, Breakfast Club and my personal favorite, Weird Science.

    Funnily enough Hughes also was a producer on some movies of director, Chris Columbus (Home Alone, Only The Lonely).

    Oh well all that clean fun has been flushed down the toilet now.

  15. I’m sure Festivus ranked higher in recognition than “Junet**nth” up until recently. Pure AstroTurf, just like the riots.

    • Replies: @Wilkey
    @BenKenobi

    I remember reading about Juneteenth celebrations in a city that I lived in far from Texas. This was over 15 years ago. But they weren't really all that popular and I never actually witnessed such a celebration or heard the term used anywhere outside of that one newspaper article. That one article is the only time I ever heard of the celebration until now.

    Blacks - to be fair, some blacks, black "leaders" - are just looking for some way to turn blackness into a religion, both one where they worship as a group, and where other people have to worship them. Kwanzaa was the one where they were supposed to worship as a group. MLK Day, Black History Month, and now Juneteenth are the ones where we are supposed to worship them and praise them for all they have done for us. We couldn't have the United States without them, after all.

    What would the United States, a former colony of Britain, be like if we had never had slavery? It would probably look something like Canada, Australia, or New Zealand. How awful!

  16. What is the greatest black accomplishment in human history that doesn’t involve sports, entertainment, or successfully demanding political changes from white people? Not a rhetorical question. I’d have to stop and think of an answer.

    • Agree: usNthem
    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Anon

    Not sure about 'in history', but in re 20th century America, this may be your guy.

    https://www.biography.com/scientist/percy-julian

    Replies: @Anonymous Jew

  17. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    "It isn’t historically controversial to say there is no evidence that the Israelites were enslaved to build the pyramids and the consensus today is that the builders weren’t slaves at all or if, the slaves were few in number. Nor is there any evidence that ancient Israelites were the builders, slave or no."

    Hold up. The Old Testament never states that the Israelites built the Pyramids while they were enslaved in Egypt. Cecil B. DeMille's The Ten Commandments actually gets that part historically accurate. You don't see them building the Pyramids. Instead they are put to work building cities for the Pharaohs, such as their treasure cities, cities to commemorate their victories on the battlefield, and of course building the Pharaoh's images and statues to them. As the Pyramids were built roughly about 4,500yrs ago, and the Israelites were enslaved roughly about 1200 yrs afterwards.

    In its heyday of popularity, (ca. 194o's -1980's), Columbus Day was probably more celebrated by whites than Juneteenth was celebrated by blacks. It was a major event in world history, and still is so today, like it or not. Chris, representing the West, set foot on the continent of North America. Yes, so had Leif Erikson a few centuries previously. Unlike Leif, Columbus and the power behind him, Spain, was looking for a trade route to the Orient as Islam controlled most of the major land routes. What they got, most of the New World, helped cement their status as a world power for about a century.

    Replies: @Cortes, @Anon, @SimpleSong

    Manual labor? Tell me another one.

  18. It’s so embarrassing to have to say “Juneteenth.” It’s baby talk, ebonics.

    “When was it we no longer been slaves?”
    “Some day in June, one of them ‘teenth days.”

    • Agree: Pheasant
    • Replies: @Thirdtwin
    @Harry Baldwin

    I’m in Arizona right now, and the interstate covid light-boards say WASH YOUR HANDS. In Atlanta, which I just left, the interstate covid light-boards say WASH YOUR HANDS LIKE YOUR MOTHER IS WATCHIN’... yes, they dropped the G.

    Maybe it’s just a Southern thing. I always thought “Juneteenth” was kind of charming, (Many Southerners have been aware of Juneteenth for a much longer time than the rest of the country IMO) but nationalizing it will probably destroy that local flavor.

  19. Tracee sounds Jewish here:

    The first line of her Wikipedia entry: Tracee Joy Silberstein (born October 29, 1972), known professionally as Tracee Ellis Ross …

    • Replies: @Lurker
    @Anon

    Jewlatto.

  20. • Replies: @Change that Matters
    @Dr. X

    When you realize the lack of blacks in the Mad Max franchise makes the concept implausible.

    Replies: @SFG, @Cortes

    , @Kibernetika
    @Dr. X

    It's really weird, but these deadly incidents always take place in areas with particular ethnic/demographic characteristics. I'm still trying to figure it out, by golly!

    We may never know.

  21. @Ron Mexico
    I find the irony and humor in celebrating a day that really, other than Frederick Douglass, very few if any black folk made possible. It was all white Republicans.

    Replies: @syonredux

    I find the irony and humor in celebrating a day that really, other than Frederick Douglass, very few if any black folk made possible. It was all white Republicans.

    Which is part of the problem. Blacks wish that they had won their freedom in some Haitian-style revolt, but they know that that isn’t true, that all of the great milestones in their liberation (ending the Atlantic slave trade, the abolition of slavery, overturning Jim Crow) were achieved by White people. That knowledge breeds resentment…..

    • Replies: @Lockean Proviso
    @syonredux

    There were 179,000 black Union soldiers in the war, but 90% of the men in blue were white:
    https://www.archives.gov/education/lessons/blacks-civil-war

    Blacks did play a front-line role in the protests ending Jim Crow such as sit-ins, freedom marches, bus boycotts, and others, but yes, without Jewish organizers and lawyers, white public opinion, and both kinds of judges and politicians it wouldn't have happened.

  22. All of this started imo with The Atlantic hiring Ta Nehasi Coates and giving him that platform.

    That time period was also formative for Chris Hayes of MSNBC.

    This was around the time that MSNBC made a big deal about Flint water and Wisconsin public sector unions.

    Later they fired Ed Schultz.

    Racial antagonism is cheap and effective for news organizations. Black grievance is sanctioned.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @Bucky

    This, and: it's reliable, it'll always be the same, you need never fear that one day they'll get their act together.

  23. As others have stated, American independence was claimed, fought for, bled for, and hard won. Juneteenth was a delayed report of something granted reluctantly by a superior to an inferior race, after an unfortunate disagreement between Whites. A gift, undeserved, and resented, because blacks are a resentful and ungrateful race.

  24. Well, it looks like Johnson and Lankford have walked back their plan to replace Columbus Day with Juneteenth as a federal holiday. Sounds like they didn’t want to add an 11th paid day off for Federal employees, but still. Not a good look for GOP Senators.

    Juneteenth is the kind of thing nobody on the left will admit to ever not knowing about. I only knew about it from the Ralph Ellison novel I didn’t finish.

    • Replies: @Known Fact
    @Ghost of Bull Moose

    At this point I would not even trust the GOP Senate to defeat a reparations bill

    Replies: @Wilkey, @MBlanc46

    , @James O'Meara
    @Ghost of Bull Moose

    Finally someone mentions Ralph Ellison's novel! I never started it, but read an excerpt, "Cadillac Flambe" that was published in New American Review. It must really have stunk to be so completely forgotten, esp. since Invisible Man is still promoted as the African American Moby Dik.

    Replies: @Ian Smith

  25. Well Steve isn’t the only one to notice that the ever increasing “Mulatto Mafia” is working overtime these days. Jason Whitlock, a black, iconoclastic sports writer, recently wrote an article on the machinations of the mulatto mafia. The term “tragic mulatto“ never seemed so appropriate.
    https://outkick.com/mixed-messages-on-race-increasing-polarization/

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    @PaceLaw

    Steve quoted him in his most recent Taki column.

    , @Treqaz
    @PaceLaw

    Mulattoes and half-Jews always end up being extremely anti-white, although for exact opposite reasons.

    Mulattoes always identify with their black side, and actively hate white people in order to prove their blackness.

    Half-Jews, on the other hand, actually hate their Jewish side. Since Jews are considered white by most people, this results in them hating white people by extension. They feel that by attacking white people, they’re attacking Jews. The historic affinity that half-Jews and quarter-Jews have for communism is also because they hate their Jewish side. They feel that communism is a way to attack greedy Jewish capitalists.

  26. I did a similar search on Google Trends but compared it to Arbor Day. Until Trump was elected their popularity was about the same.

  27. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    "It isn’t historically controversial to say there is no evidence that the Israelites were enslaved to build the pyramids and the consensus today is that the builders weren’t slaves at all or if, the slaves were few in number. Nor is there any evidence that ancient Israelites were the builders, slave or no."

    Hold up. The Old Testament never states that the Israelites built the Pyramids while they were enslaved in Egypt. Cecil B. DeMille's The Ten Commandments actually gets that part historically accurate. You don't see them building the Pyramids. Instead they are put to work building cities for the Pharaohs, such as their treasure cities, cities to commemorate their victories on the battlefield, and of course building the Pharaoh's images and statues to them. As the Pyramids were built roughly about 4,500yrs ago, and the Israelites were enslaved roughly about 1200 yrs afterwards.

    In its heyday of popularity, (ca. 194o's -1980's), Columbus Day was probably more celebrated by whites than Juneteenth was celebrated by blacks. It was a major event in world history, and still is so today, like it or not. Chris, representing the West, set foot on the continent of North America. Yes, so had Leif Erikson a few centuries previously. Unlike Leif, Columbus and the power behind him, Spain, was looking for a trade route to the Orient as Islam controlled most of the major land routes. What they got, most of the New World, helped cement their status as a world power for about a century.

    Replies: @Cortes, @Anon, @SimpleSong

    True, but there’s actually no evidence that the Jews were enslaved in Egypt, ever. While pretty much all historians agree there was a historical figure named Jesus and a historical figure named Muhammad (regardless of what you think about their divinity, they certainly existed as real people), most also agree that the Exodus narrative is just…totally made up. Likely adapted from earlier sources during the Babylonian captivity, along with the rest of the Pentateuch, meaning monotheistic Judaism is actually not all that old, about 500 years older than Christianity.

    Looking at them as historical documents: the New Testament names the provincial Roman ruler (Pontius Pilate) and has a number of references to historical figures that are known from other sources (such as John the Baptist.) Likewise there are non-Christian pagan sources that discuss the development of early Christianity.

    In contrast, Exodus talks a lot about “the Pharoh”. Which Pharoh? Never says. There are no details in the narrative that historians can link to any particular period in Egyptian history, it’s just generic ‘Egypt.’. Likewise no documents from Egyptian or other sources ever mention enslaved Jews or a slave revolt or anything of that nature.

    So the whole thing is probably a metaphor, perhaps ‘Egypt’ was a stand in for another imperial power (perhaps Babylon since this was likely written down in the middle of the Babylonian captivity.) Similar to how in Revelation “Babylon” is a code word/stand in for “Rome,” obviously talking about the destruction of Rome by god would have had some consequences for the early Christians…

    Anyway Judaism has much less historicity than either Christianity or Islam, or Buddhism, for that matter. If I’m not mistaken the consensus is that it evolved out of polytheistic Caananite religions during the bronze age; El was the name of the chief god but a variety of gods were worshiped (Baal for example), Yahweh was another god that was particularly revered in the kingdoms of Judah and Israel, analagous to how Athena was revered in Athens. Eventually Yahweh came to be seen as the chief god, then the only god, approximately at the time the Old testament was being finalized in approx. 500 BC. As part of this process they were integrating a bunch of older sources and were trying to shoehorn the narrative of Yahweh as the main and only god into some older narratives.

    So in Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuterotomy, in the original Hebrew apparently there are passages that refer to god as “El”, and then nearly identical passages that say the same thing but refer to god as “Yahweh.” (I don’t speak Hebrew so can’t confirm, of course all English translations just say “The Lord” for both El and Yahweh…) This residual ambiguity is likely leftover from some very contentious committee meetings.

    Anyway, takeaways: Jews were never slaves in Egypt, ever. Moses and Abraham likely did not exist as historical figures. Monotheistic Judaism is only about 500 years older than Christianity, prior to this the Canaanite kingdoms of Israel and Judah were polytheistic. Monotheism was not a new invention but rather the promotion of the local god of Israel and Judah into the top spot.

    This is why when Jews make fun of Mormons for believing god came to upstate New York and showed Joseph Smith some golden plates, I roll my eyes. Judaism is super-duper made up, much more so than most religions. There really was a guy named Jesus, he really did get crucified by the Romans. Some people believe he was he the son of god, some people believe he was a prophet, some people believe he was just a person, but he definitely existed. Same deal with Muhammad. On the other hand, no, there was never a guy named Moses who led the Jews out of Egypt. There is zero historical evidence for anything remotely resembling that occuring.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @SimpleSong

    As I recall, there is no surviving artifact that mentions a prophet named "Muhammad" either during what is now accepted as Muhammad's life or for a Century after that. I haven't followed that closely, though.

    Amazing how much of what people know aint so.

    Replies: @James O'Meara

    , @Allen
    @SimpleSong

    This isn't an entirely fair assessment. It is true we lack specific "hard" archaeological evidence of the exodus event. However, there is some evidence that renders the exodus account at least plausible.

    For instance, the biblical account references three Egyptian locations Pithom, Ramses and Yam Suph, with the Egyptian equivalents being Pi-Ramesse, Pi-Atum and (Pa-)Tjuf. These three locations are only referenced together in Egyptian texts from the Ramesside Period. Similarly the Onomasticon Amenope from Egypt's third intermediate period lists Semitic place name b-r-k.t, which refers to the Lakes of Pithom. This has been cited as some evidence for a Semitic group living in the area. Additionally, a group from University of Chicago excavated a four-room worker's house in Thebes that is characteristic of Israelite dwellings during the Iron Age. We can add to this the simple fact that in near-eastern honor-shame cultures memories of enslavement are not something a group would be prone to invent. Note this evidence is summarized from Exodus Evidence: An Egyptologist Looks at Biblical History which can be found in Biblical Archaeology Review 42:3, May/June 2016.

    Now none of this "proves" the historical reliability of the Exodus narrative of course. As I said above the evidence merely renders it plausible. However I would add that noted Egyptologist Kenneth Kitchen evaluated the evidence in The Origin of Early Israel and found the concept of Egyptian enslavement and liberation historically reasonable. see especially pages 65-131.

    Moreover the idea that all of the pentateuch was a post-exilic product is highly questionable, but this comment is long enough as is.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    , @James O'Meara
    @SimpleSong

    Good stuff overall, but I must point out that

    "Looking at them as historical documents: the New Testament names the provincial Roman ruler (Pontius Pilate) and has a number of references to historical figures that are known from other sources (such as John the Baptist.)"

    would make the works of Taylor Caldwell or Gore Vidal historical documents.

    Replies: @SimpleSong, @Reg Cæsar

    , @Kratoklastes
    @SimpleSong


    pretty much all historians agree there was a historical figure named Jesus
     
    The truth advances one funeral at a time.

    The old guard who believed everything from soup to nuts, is now 2 generations dead - outside of backward shitholes like the US Bible Belt.

    It wasn't until the 1990s that "pretty much all historians" accepted the evidence Moses, Avram, Isaac etc (basically, the Founding Fathers of the cock-slasher cult) were fictional characters.

    Now, Old Testament mythicism is the dominant paradigm.

    The guy doing the heavy lifting (Thomas L Thompson) on the idea that most of the Old Nonsense was horse-shit, was calumniated for two decades - including claims of... you guessed it... antisemitism.

    As it went for the Old Nonsense, so it will go for the fanfic New Nonsense. The Gospels are already known to be ahistorical garbage that are inconsistent - and the Epistles are post-mortem fanfic written by a partisan.

    The Jeebus Myth hypothesis puts a lot of money at risk for the Apex Grifters: even so, it will become the dominant paradigm as soon as the grifters can work out a way to 'pivot' in such a way that they can keep the money flowing.

    Thus far they've been able to ditch some of the really obvious ahistorical nonsense (Genesis, Exodus, Joshua, the virgin birth etc) without too much damage to cash flow - but actually declaring that the guy right at the centre of the grift is a cartoon character... that might be a harder row to hoe. It will take a bunch of conclaves before they get the new "This is how it's always been" story right.

    Coz let's get what it will mean when the Mythicism view wins: it means Jeebus is the same class of thing as Hercules, Thor, or any of dozens of other composite fictional heroes.

    .

    When I say "they've been able to ditch" etc... ask yourself how many different flavours of the Jeebus cult would still take seriously things like the 1978 Chicago Declaration on Biblical Inerrancy.

    Now obviously, that's mostly the views of US whackball evangelical charlatans... so you can't expect them to say sensible shit, and their audience is mostly morons.

    What about the Papists?

    Well, inerrancy is still part of the cake - after Vatican II they realised that even Catholics could work oput which bits are stupid, so Rome went with "Oh, we're doing 'Inerrancy Lite' now: 'inerrancy' it only applies to the bits where there's no evidence yet that it's bullshit. That's how we've always done it" (in Dei Verbum [1965]).

    Although this is advertised as being entirely-consistent-with-and-not-at-all-a-departure-from old-timey doctrine, it is a complete departure from their entire 'inerrancy' narrative as recorded all the way from St. Augustine (De Gen. ad litt. 2, 9), through to pre-Vatican II encyclicals Providentissimus Deus (1893), Divino Afflante Spiritu (1943) and a relatively unimportant thing called the Catechism of the Catholic Church (par. 107).

    The Money Shot from Providentissimus Deus - making it absolutely clear that inerrancy is a plenary concept, not a "pick the non-refuted bits" selection box...


    But it is absolutely wrong and forbidden, either to narrow inspiration to certain parts only of Holy Scripture, or to admit that the sacred writer has erred. For the system of those who, in order to rid themselves of these difficulties, do not hesitate to concede that divine inspiration regards the things of faith and morals, and nothing beyond, because (as they wrongly think) in a question of the truth or falsehood of a passage, we should consider not so much what God has said as the reason and purpose which He had in mind in saying it — this system cannot be tolerated.
     
    In the 60s, Apex Charlatans like König - in response to clear, obvious, "it's been there for 1500 years" evidence of scientific, factual and historical errors - decided that it would be sensible to change "Cum ergo omne id, quod" to "Cum ergo veritas — vel veritas Sacrae Scripturae — quam". That is "only the true bits are true".

    Fucking charlatans - but it worked (kinda). Give 'em credit: they know their audience... viz., ignorant fuckwits who don't pay attention, and think that the latest version has always been in the 'magisterium'.

    .

    Anyhow... TL;DR: once the purely-mythological nature of the Jeebus story is accepted - in another 20 years when the current Dead-Enders are dead - the Apex Grifters in each version of the cult will edit their doctrine and say "Oh, yeah... we always knew that. That's literally what we thought all along."

    They've gotten away with that for 2 millennia: they're in a different information market now. They're trying to be Kodak when everyone's got a smartphone.

  28. @Reg Cæsar

    Never forget blacks and Jews are on the same side[,] viewer!
     
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ENEoD1qW4AA9BeV.jpg

    Replies: @Cortes, @duncsbaby

    Gotta love the colour of the kneepads on Melvin Van Peebles.

  29. @Anon
    Tracee sounds Jewish here:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlduVwzqK2o

    The first line of her Wikipedia entry: Tracee Joy Silberstein (born October 29, 1972), known professionally as Tracee Ellis Ross ...

    Replies: @Lurker

    Jewlatto.

  30. @Bucky
    All of this started imo with The Atlantic hiring Ta Nehasi Coates and giving him that platform.

    That time period was also formative for Chris Hayes of MSNBC.

    This was around the time that MSNBC made a big deal about Flint water and Wisconsin public sector unions.

    Later they fired Ed Schultz.

    Racial antagonism is cheap and effective for news organizations. Black grievance is sanctioned.

    Replies: @J.Ross

    This, and: it’s reliable, it’ll always be the same, you need never fear that one day they’ll get their act together.

  31. @ScarletNumber
    Here in North Jersey, I had never heard of Juneteenth as of a month ago, but two weeks ago it was all I heard about,

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen

    Englewood has had Juneteenth celebrations of some sort for the last 10 years or so.

    https://m.facebook.com/EnglewoodJuneteenthCelebrations/about

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    @Dave Pinsen

    I generally don't cross 4.

  32. Kwanzaa’s been kwiet these past few years.

  33. @anon
    @Buffalo Joe

    But it ended up that way by accident. Columbus thought he had landed in India (Indies) and was disappointed it was a wasteland. So, more of getting lost/disoriented and still surviving story rather than voyage of discovery like Vasco da Gama, Magellan or Francis Drake.

    Replies: @Allen, @slumber_j, @Buffalo Joe

    True Columbus wasn’t setting out to discover a new continent, but he did have the courage to try an uncharted route, and his overarching motive was to raise funds to finance a new crusade to liberate the holy land from the Muslims.

    Meanwhile the dire financial situation in Spain at the time coupled with fears of a returning Muslim invasion adds a nice dramatic touch to the story. Ferdinand and Isabella were making a gamble by financing Columbus and there was no guarantee that it was going to pay off.

    Regardless, a much more heroic story than reading a letter about the emancipation proclamation.

  34. @anon
    @Buffalo Joe

    But it ended up that way by accident. Columbus thought he had landed in India (Indies) and was disappointed it was a wasteland. So, more of getting lost/disoriented and still surviving story rather than voyage of discovery like Vasco da Gama, Magellan or Francis Drake.

    Replies: @Allen, @slumber_j, @Buffalo Joe

    ikr That’s a really good point that I’ve never heard before.

    I love your handle BTW!!

    Anyway, do you think Juneteenth is as retarded as I think it is? As a name, I mean. And also as a concept, for that matter… I value your opinion. lmk

    • Replies: @Kyle
    @slumber_j


    Anyway, do you think Juneteenth is as retarded as I think it is? As a name, I mean. And also as a concept, for that matter… I value your opinion. lmk
     
    Yes. There already is a June 10th. I don’t see the logic in celebrating June 10th on June 19th. The name is retarded. But no I like the concept. It’s kinda cool that black people in Galveston have their own holiday and for a pretty cool reason.
  35. @Harry Baldwin
    It's so embarrassing to have to say "Juneteenth." It's baby talk, ebonics.

    "When was it we no longer been slaves?"
    "Some day in June, one of them 'teenth days."

    Replies: @Thirdtwin

    I’m in Arizona right now, and the interstate covid light-boards say WASH YOUR HANDS. In Atlanta, which I just left, the interstate covid light-boards say WASH YOUR HANDS LIKE YOUR MOTHER IS WATCHIN’… yes, they dropped the G.

    Maybe it’s just a Southern thing. I always thought “Juneteenth” was kind of charming, (Many Southerners have been aware of Juneteenth for a much longer time than the rest of the country IMO) but nationalizing it will probably destroy that local flavor.

  36. We’re in for a LOT more Chinese style cultural revolution. Yahoo routinely features a White person, usually a White woman, being shamed.

    The Covid lockdown provided the infrastructure – both technical and cultural – for monitoring and reporting those who don’t submit to arbitrary rules.

    Have guys like Greg Cochran begun to suspect they were played, yet?

    https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/costco-karen-goes-viral-she-203104196.html

  37. @PaceLaw
    Well Steve isn’t the only one to notice that the ever increasing “Mulatto Mafia” is working overtime these days. Jason Whitlock, a black, iconoclastic sports writer, recently wrote an article on the machinations of the mulatto mafia. The term “tragic mulatto“ never seemed so appropriate.
    https://outkick.com/mixed-messages-on-race-increasing-polarization/

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen, @Treqaz

    Steve quoted him in his most recent Taki column.

  38. August 30, 1861, the Frémont Emancipation

    The Frémont Emancipation was part of a military proclamation issued by Major General John C. Frémont (1813–1890) on August 30, 1861 in St. Louis, Missouri during the early months of the American Civil War. The proclamation placed the state of Missouri under martial law and decreed that all property of those bearing arms in rebellion would be confiscated, including slaves, and that confiscated slaves would subsequently be declared free.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr%C3%A9mont_Emancipation

  39. @syonredux
    @Ron Mexico


    I find the irony and humor in celebrating a day that really, other than Frederick Douglass, very few if any black folk made possible. It was all white Republicans.
     
    Which is part of the problem. Blacks wish that they had won their freedom in some Haitian-style revolt, but they know that that isn't true, that all of the great milestones in their liberation (ending the Atlantic slave trade, the abolition of slavery, overturning Jim Crow) were achieved by White people. That knowledge breeds resentment.....

    Replies: @Lockean Proviso

    There were 179,000 black Union soldiers in the war, but 90% of the men in blue were white:
    https://www.archives.gov/education/lessons/blacks-civil-war

    Blacks did play a front-line role in the protests ending Jim Crow such as sit-ins, freedom marches, bus boycotts, and others, but yes, without Jewish organizers and lawyers, white public opinion, and both kinds of judges and politicians it wouldn’t have happened.

  40. @Dr. X
    Celebratin' Joomteemf in Charlotte!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPd9zmTtjv4

    https://www.wbtv.com/2020/06/23/gunshots-fired-mass-casualty-incident-north-charlotte-block-party-dead/

    Replies: @Change that Matters, @Kibernetika

    When you realize the lack of blacks in the Mad Max franchise makes the concept implausible.

    • Replies: @SFG
    @Change that Matters

    Isn't it set in Australia? If anything they should have Aborigines.

    , @Cortes
    @Change that Matters

    Especially when you think about the promotion of Swiss nobodies like Tina Turner in “Beyond Thunderdome”.

  41. Pity they didn’t decide on April for this.

  42. Anonymous[339] • Disclaimer says:
    @SimpleSong
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    True, but there's actually no evidence that the Jews were enslaved in Egypt, ever. While pretty much all historians agree there was a historical figure named Jesus and a historical figure named Muhammad (regardless of what you think about their divinity, they certainly existed as real people), most also agree that the Exodus narrative is just...totally made up. Likely adapted from earlier sources during the Babylonian captivity, along with the rest of the Pentateuch, meaning monotheistic Judaism is actually not all that old, about 500 years older than Christianity.

    Looking at them as historical documents: the New Testament names the provincial Roman ruler (Pontius Pilate) and has a number of references to historical figures that are known from other sources (such as John the Baptist.) Likewise there are non-Christian pagan sources that discuss the development of early Christianity.

    In contrast, Exodus talks a lot about "the Pharoh". Which Pharoh? Never says. There are no details in the narrative that historians can link to any particular period in Egyptian history, it's just generic 'Egypt.'. Likewise no documents from Egyptian or other sources ever mention enslaved Jews or a slave revolt or anything of that nature.

    So the whole thing is probably a metaphor, perhaps 'Egypt' was a stand in for another imperial power (perhaps Babylon since this was likely written down in the middle of the Babylonian captivity.) Similar to how in Revelation "Babylon" is a code word/stand in for "Rome," obviously talking about the destruction of Rome by god would have had some consequences for the early Christians...

    Anyway Judaism has much less historicity than either Christianity or Islam, or Buddhism, for that matter. If I'm not mistaken the consensus is that it evolved out of polytheistic Caananite religions during the bronze age; El was the name of the chief god but a variety of gods were worshiped (Baal for example), Yahweh was another god that was particularly revered in the kingdoms of Judah and Israel, analagous to how Athena was revered in Athens. Eventually Yahweh came to be seen as the chief god, then the only god, approximately at the time the Old testament was being finalized in approx. 500 BC. As part of this process they were integrating a bunch of older sources and were trying to shoehorn the narrative of Yahweh as the main and only god into some older narratives.

    So in Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuterotomy, in the original Hebrew apparently there are passages that refer to god as "El", and then nearly identical passages that say the same thing but refer to god as "Yahweh." (I don't speak Hebrew so can't confirm, of course all English translations just say "The Lord" for both El and Yahweh...) This residual ambiguity is likely leftover from some very contentious committee meetings.

    Anyway, takeaways: Jews were never slaves in Egypt, ever. Moses and Abraham likely did not exist as historical figures. Monotheistic Judaism is only about 500 years older than Christianity, prior to this the Canaanite kingdoms of Israel and Judah were polytheistic. Monotheism was not a new invention but rather the promotion of the local god of Israel and Judah into the top spot.

    This is why when Jews make fun of Mormons for believing god came to upstate New York and showed Joseph Smith some golden plates, I roll my eyes. Judaism is super-duper made up, much more so than most religions. There really was a guy named Jesus, he really did get crucified by the Romans. Some people believe he was he the son of god, some people believe he was a prophet, some people believe he was just a person, but he definitely existed. Same deal with Muhammad. On the other hand, no, there was never a guy named Moses who led the Jews out of Egypt. There is zero historical evidence for anything remotely resembling that occuring.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Allen, @James O'Meara, @Kratoklastes

    As I recall, there is no surviving artifact that mentions a prophet named “Muhammad” either during what is now accepted as Muhammad’s life or for a Century after that. I haven’t followed that closely, though.

    Amazing how much of what people know aint so.

    • Troll: LondonBob
    • Replies: @James O'Meara
    @Anonymous

    All Semite religions are pious frauds (hey, Christians even invented the term!), which the naive and honorable goyim fall for. It's no surprise the dumbest goyim are the one who believe in literalism.

    Bart Ehrman's total evidence for Jesus: the Gospels are based on hypothetical oral traditions that we don't have evidence for, which must have been based on someone we don't know anything else about. Pretty thin gruel.

    On Mummy, see Robert (not Richard!) Spencer:

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00JBRUKMG/ref=kinw_myk_ro_title

    Replies: @For what it's worth

  43. @SimpleSong
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    True, but there's actually no evidence that the Jews were enslaved in Egypt, ever. While pretty much all historians agree there was a historical figure named Jesus and a historical figure named Muhammad (regardless of what you think about their divinity, they certainly existed as real people), most also agree that the Exodus narrative is just...totally made up. Likely adapted from earlier sources during the Babylonian captivity, along with the rest of the Pentateuch, meaning monotheistic Judaism is actually not all that old, about 500 years older than Christianity.

    Looking at them as historical documents: the New Testament names the provincial Roman ruler (Pontius Pilate) and has a number of references to historical figures that are known from other sources (such as John the Baptist.) Likewise there are non-Christian pagan sources that discuss the development of early Christianity.

    In contrast, Exodus talks a lot about "the Pharoh". Which Pharoh? Never says. There are no details in the narrative that historians can link to any particular period in Egyptian history, it's just generic 'Egypt.'. Likewise no documents from Egyptian or other sources ever mention enslaved Jews or a slave revolt or anything of that nature.

    So the whole thing is probably a metaphor, perhaps 'Egypt' was a stand in for another imperial power (perhaps Babylon since this was likely written down in the middle of the Babylonian captivity.) Similar to how in Revelation "Babylon" is a code word/stand in for "Rome," obviously talking about the destruction of Rome by god would have had some consequences for the early Christians...

    Anyway Judaism has much less historicity than either Christianity or Islam, or Buddhism, for that matter. If I'm not mistaken the consensus is that it evolved out of polytheistic Caananite religions during the bronze age; El was the name of the chief god but a variety of gods were worshiped (Baal for example), Yahweh was another god that was particularly revered in the kingdoms of Judah and Israel, analagous to how Athena was revered in Athens. Eventually Yahweh came to be seen as the chief god, then the only god, approximately at the time the Old testament was being finalized in approx. 500 BC. As part of this process they were integrating a bunch of older sources and were trying to shoehorn the narrative of Yahweh as the main and only god into some older narratives.

    So in Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuterotomy, in the original Hebrew apparently there are passages that refer to god as "El", and then nearly identical passages that say the same thing but refer to god as "Yahweh." (I don't speak Hebrew so can't confirm, of course all English translations just say "The Lord" for both El and Yahweh...) This residual ambiguity is likely leftover from some very contentious committee meetings.

    Anyway, takeaways: Jews were never slaves in Egypt, ever. Moses and Abraham likely did not exist as historical figures. Monotheistic Judaism is only about 500 years older than Christianity, prior to this the Canaanite kingdoms of Israel and Judah were polytheistic. Monotheism was not a new invention but rather the promotion of the local god of Israel and Judah into the top spot.

    This is why when Jews make fun of Mormons for believing god came to upstate New York and showed Joseph Smith some golden plates, I roll my eyes. Judaism is super-duper made up, much more so than most religions. There really was a guy named Jesus, he really did get crucified by the Romans. Some people believe he was he the son of god, some people believe he was a prophet, some people believe he was just a person, but he definitely existed. Same deal with Muhammad. On the other hand, no, there was never a guy named Moses who led the Jews out of Egypt. There is zero historical evidence for anything remotely resembling that occuring.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Allen, @James O'Meara, @Kratoklastes

    This isn’t an entirely fair assessment. It is true we lack specific “hard” archaeological evidence of the exodus event. However, there is some evidence that renders the exodus account at least plausible.

    For instance, the biblical account references three Egyptian locations Pithom, Ramses and Yam Suph, with the Egyptian equivalents being Pi-Ramesse, Pi-Atum and (Pa-)Tjuf. These three locations are only referenced together in Egyptian texts from the Ramesside Period. Similarly the Onomasticon Amenope from Egypt’s third intermediate period lists Semitic place name b-r-k.t, which refers to the Lakes of Pithom. This has been cited as some evidence for a Semitic group living in the area. Additionally, a group from University of Chicago excavated a four-room worker’s house in Thebes that is characteristic of Israelite dwellings during the Iron Age. We can add to this the simple fact that in near-eastern honor-shame cultures memories of enslavement are not something a group would be prone to invent. Note this evidence is summarized from Exodus Evidence: An Egyptologist Looks at Biblical History which can be found in Biblical Archaeology Review 42:3, May/June 2016.

    Now none of this “proves” the historical reliability of the Exodus narrative of course. As I said above the evidence merely renders it plausible. However I would add that noted Egyptologist Kenneth Kitchen evaluated the evidence in The Origin of Early Israel and found the concept of Egyptian enslavement and liberation historically reasonable. see especially pages 65-131.

    Moreover the idea that all of the pentateuch was a post-exilic product is highly questionable, but this comment is long enough as is.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Allen

    My general prejudice is that most old stories are based on _something_ that actually happened. For example, in the mid-19th Century, the leading German scholars believed that Troy never existed, that the legends of the Trojan War were just the reification of disputes over trade tensions. But businessman Heinrich Schliemann was too uneducated to believe that, so he went to the place where his study of the Iliad suggested Troy was. When he asked around, the locals told him, "Troy? Oh, sure. It's that hill over there."

    So Schliemann hired locals to dig and they found more than a dozen different cities of Troy on the same spot. Today, the controversy is over which Troy was the Troy of Priam and Hector.

    As for Moses ... well, he's clearly a hero. But if you go further back in the Bible, some of the stuff about Abraham is mythological, but mostly Abraham just seems like a successful businessman and not all that amazing of one either. I would imagine tens of millions of Americans have a ancestor within the last half dozen generations of whose exploits would be comparable to Abraham. In summary, while I could imagine making up the story of Moses, I couldn't imagine bothering to make up the entire story of Abraham. Which in turn raises questions about the purported nonexistence of Moses: if Abraham seems like a fairly real guy, maybe the more recent Moses is too.

    Replies: @Henry's Cat, @Chrisnonymous, @Paul Jolliffe, @For what it's worth, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

  44. Dr. Richard Carrier has written a book disputing the historical existence of Jesus, On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt. He admits his position is a minority one and he’s kind of off-putting in his demeanor and presentation, but his scholarship is interesting.

    I don’t know about Mohammed, but some scholars wonder if he wasn’t a composite character of a heretical Monophysite Christian monk and a Syrian bandit. I’ve wondered whether Jesus might also be a composite character.

    Not only is the story of the Exodus subject to dispute, there’s little archeological evidence that Israelites wandered in Sinai for forty years. Some scholars believe the wandering was in Midian.

  45. @Allen
    @SimpleSong

    This isn't an entirely fair assessment. It is true we lack specific "hard" archaeological evidence of the exodus event. However, there is some evidence that renders the exodus account at least plausible.

    For instance, the biblical account references three Egyptian locations Pithom, Ramses and Yam Suph, with the Egyptian equivalents being Pi-Ramesse, Pi-Atum and (Pa-)Tjuf. These three locations are only referenced together in Egyptian texts from the Ramesside Period. Similarly the Onomasticon Amenope from Egypt's third intermediate period lists Semitic place name b-r-k.t, which refers to the Lakes of Pithom. This has been cited as some evidence for a Semitic group living in the area. Additionally, a group from University of Chicago excavated a four-room worker's house in Thebes that is characteristic of Israelite dwellings during the Iron Age. We can add to this the simple fact that in near-eastern honor-shame cultures memories of enslavement are not something a group would be prone to invent. Note this evidence is summarized from Exodus Evidence: An Egyptologist Looks at Biblical History which can be found in Biblical Archaeology Review 42:3, May/June 2016.

    Now none of this "proves" the historical reliability of the Exodus narrative of course. As I said above the evidence merely renders it plausible. However I would add that noted Egyptologist Kenneth Kitchen evaluated the evidence in The Origin of Early Israel and found the concept of Egyptian enslavement and liberation historically reasonable. see especially pages 65-131.

    Moreover the idea that all of the pentateuch was a post-exilic product is highly questionable, but this comment is long enough as is.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    My general prejudice is that most old stories are based on _something_ that actually happened. For example, in the mid-19th Century, the leading German scholars believed that Troy never existed, that the legends of the Trojan War were just the reification of disputes over trade tensions. But businessman Heinrich Schliemann was too uneducated to believe that, so he went to the place where his study of the Iliad suggested Troy was. When he asked around, the locals told him, “Troy? Oh, sure. It’s that hill over there.”

    So Schliemann hired locals to dig and they found more than a dozen different cities of Troy on the same spot. Today, the controversy is over which Troy was the Troy of Priam and Hector.

    As for Moses … well, he’s clearly a hero. But if you go further back in the Bible, some of the stuff about Abraham is mythological, but mostly Abraham just seems like a successful businessman and not all that amazing of one either. I would imagine tens of millions of Americans have a ancestor within the last half dozen generations of whose exploits would be comparable to Abraham. In summary, while I could imagine making up the story of Moses, I couldn’t imagine bothering to make up the entire story of Abraham. Which in turn raises questions about the purported nonexistence of Moses: if Abraham seems like a fairly real guy, maybe the more recent Moses is too.

    • Replies: @Henry's Cat
    @Steve Sailer


    So Schliemann hired locals to dig and they found more than a dozen different cities of Troy on the same spot. Today, the controversy is over which Troy was the Troy of Priam and Hector.
     
    That inveterate liar and serial bungler! https://histastrophe.com/2018/04/23/that-asshole-heinrich-schliemann/
    , @Chrisnonymous
    @Steve Sailer

    Bible: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth..."

    Sailer: something actually happened!

    ; D

    , @Paul Jolliffe
    @Steve Sailer

    The legend of Moses (c. 1300 BC) includes the details of his birth which are completely “borrowed” from Sargon of Akkad (2300 BC), right down to his mother setting him adrift as a baby in a basket on the Euphrates and then his being discovered and adopted by the royal family.

    Since Sargon was a real person, did the ancient Hebrews copy these details to give their man heroic origins?

    You bet, baby!

    https://www.ancient.eu/article/746/the-legend-of-sargon-of-akkad/

    Replies: @SimpleSong, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    , @For what it's worth
    @Steve Sailer

    At the end of his life, Jacob seems unimpressed with his own story. When Pharaoh asks him for his biography, Jacob basically says, "Life sucks," then walks out:

    "9 He answered: The days of my pilgrimage are a hundred and thirty years, few, and evil, and they are not come up to the days of the pilgrimage of my fathers.

    10 And blessing the king, he went out.

    --Gen. 47:9-10

    , @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Steve Sailer

    "My general prejudice is that most old stories are based on _something_ that actually happened. "

    That fairly sums up how modern biblical archeological excavations were begun: interested parties searching for accuracy in a book that they had long been reading for generations.

  46. @Dave Pinsen
    @ScarletNumber

    Englewood has had Juneteenth celebrations of some sort for the last 10 years or so.

    https://m.facebook.com/EnglewoodJuneteenthCelebrations/about

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

    I generally don’t cross 4.

  47. It isn’t historically controversial to say there is no evidence that the Israelites were enslaved to build the pyramids and the consensus today is that the builders weren’t slaves at all or if, the slaves were few in number. Nor is there any evidence that ancient Israelites were the builders, slave or no.

    In fact, there is historical evidence the Hebrews were ejected from Egypt because they had come to dominate finance and commerce to the detriment of the Egyptians.

  48. @Ron Mexico
    Columbus Day really should be Queen Isabella Day. Unified Spain, expelled Islam, financed Columbus, fixed Catholicisms future on the New World, brought about the colonization of the Americas. No Isabella, no Columbus.

    Replies: @Redneck farmer

    If you tried to do that, all you’d hear about is “expulsion and forced conversion of Jews”.

  49. @Reg Cæsar
    Kwanzaa was a bust. Try, try again...

    Replies: @Inquiring Mind

    “Festivus” is a parody of Kwanzaa? Instead of being some odd Christmas-time and Christmas-substitute specific to a minority group, it serves that purpose for one fictitious Italian-Jewish family?

    How did Larry David ever get away with that one?

    • Replies: @fish
    @Inquiring Mind


    How did Larry David ever get away with that one?
     
    ((())) and track record.......
  50. jb says:

    Frankly, if we had to establish a national holiday placate black people, I would have very much preferred Juneteenth over Martin Luther King day. Nothing against MLK. Sure, he was a flawed asshole, but so were a lot of great men. But no way does he rank with Washington or Columbus! Slavery though has been part of the human condition for millennia, so an abstract celebration of the abolition of the institution of slavery in America would have had a certain universality. Whereas MLK day will never be about anything other than black black black black black….

    • Replies: @Paco Wové
    @jb

    Besides, I'd much rather have a holiday in June than in January.

  51. @Change that Matters
    @Dr. X

    When you realize the lack of blacks in the Mad Max franchise makes the concept implausible.

    Replies: @SFG, @Cortes

    Isn’t it set in Australia? If anything they should have Aborigines.

    • Thanks: GoRedWings!
  52. @Change that Matters
    @Dr. X

    When you realize the lack of blacks in the Mad Max franchise makes the concept implausible.

    Replies: @SFG, @Cortes

    Especially when you think about the promotion of Swiss nobodies like Tina Turner in “Beyond Thunderdome”.

  53. Gotta ask: what makes the WN men here think that their Eurasian kids will be less full of anti-white animosity than the half black kids today? That they’ll feel like they’ll have anything less to prove?

  54. @BenKenobi
    I’m sure Festivus ranked higher in recognition than “Junet**nth” up until recently. Pure AstroTurf, just like the riots.

    Replies: @Wilkey

    I remember reading about Juneteenth celebrations in a city that I lived in far from Texas. This was over 15 years ago. But they weren’t really all that popular and I never actually witnessed such a celebration or heard the term used anywhere outside of that one newspaper article. That one article is the only time I ever heard of the celebration until now.

    Blacks – to be fair, some blacks, black “leaders” – are just looking for some way to turn blackness into a religion, both one where they worship as a group, and where other people have to worship them. Kwanzaa was the one where they were supposed to worship as a group. MLK Day, Black History Month, and now Juneteenth are the ones where we are supposed to worship them and praise them for all they have done for us. We couldn’t have the United States without them, after all.

    What would the United States, a former colony of Britain, be like if we had never had slavery? It would probably look something like Canada, Australia, or New Zealand. How awful!

  55. @jb
    Frankly, if we had to establish a national holiday placate black people, I would have very much preferred Juneteenth over Martin Luther King day. Nothing against MLK. Sure, he was a flawed asshole, but so were a lot of great men. But no way does he rank with Washington or Columbus! Slavery though has been part of the human condition for millennia, so an abstract celebration of the abolition of the institution of slavery in America would have had a certain universality. Whereas MLK day will never be about anything other than black black black black black....

    Replies: @Paco Wové

    Besides, I’d much rather have a holiday in June than in January.

  56. @Inquiring Mind
    @Reg Cæsar

    "Festivus" is a parody of Kwanzaa? Instead of being some odd Christmas-time and Christmas-substitute specific to a minority group, it serves that purpose for one fictitious Italian-Jewish family?

    How did Larry David ever get away with that one?

    Replies: @fish

    How did Larry David ever get away with that one?

    ((())) and track record…….

  57. @Ghost of Bull Moose
    Well, it looks like Johnson and Lankford have walked back their plan to replace Columbus Day with Juneteenth as a federal holiday. Sounds like they didn't want to add an 11th paid day off for Federal employees, but still. Not a good look for GOP Senators.

    Juneteenth is the kind of thing nobody on the left will admit to ever not knowing about. I only knew about it from the Ralph Ellison novel I didn't finish.

    Replies: @Known Fact, @James O'Meara

    At this point I would not even trust the GOP Senate to defeat a reparations bill

    • Replies: @Wilkey
    @Known Fact


    At this point I would not even trust the GOP Senate to defeat a reparations bill.

     

    Easy peasy. Just make sure the reparations are paid for via some combination of higher estate, income and cap gains taxes, and watch Ritt Momney turn from Republican milquestoast to Republican firebrand in 8 seconds flat.

    Replies: @Known Fact

    , @MBlanc46
    @Known Fact

    They certainly wouldn’t try to defeat a reparations bill.

  58. Kyle says:
    @slumber_j
    @anon

    ikr That's a really good point that I've never heard before.

    I love your handle BTW!!

    Anyway, do you think Juneteenth is as retarded as I think it is? As a name, I mean. And also as a concept, for that matter... I value your opinion. lmk

    Replies: @Kyle

    Anyway, do you think Juneteenth is as retarded as I think it is? As a name, I mean. And also as a concept, for that matter… I value your opinion. lmk

    Yes. There already is a June 10th. I don’t see the logic in celebrating June 10th on June 19th. The name is retarded. But no I like the concept. It’s kinda cool that black people in Galveston have their own holiday and for a pretty cool reason.

  59. Are the last two paragraphs supposed to be inside the blockquote?

  60. @Steve Sailer
    @Allen

    My general prejudice is that most old stories are based on _something_ that actually happened. For example, in the mid-19th Century, the leading German scholars believed that Troy never existed, that the legends of the Trojan War were just the reification of disputes over trade tensions. But businessman Heinrich Schliemann was too uneducated to believe that, so he went to the place where his study of the Iliad suggested Troy was. When he asked around, the locals told him, "Troy? Oh, sure. It's that hill over there."

    So Schliemann hired locals to dig and they found more than a dozen different cities of Troy on the same spot. Today, the controversy is over which Troy was the Troy of Priam and Hector.

    As for Moses ... well, he's clearly a hero. But if you go further back in the Bible, some of the stuff about Abraham is mythological, but mostly Abraham just seems like a successful businessman and not all that amazing of one either. I would imagine tens of millions of Americans have a ancestor within the last half dozen generations of whose exploits would be comparable to Abraham. In summary, while I could imagine making up the story of Moses, I couldn't imagine bothering to make up the entire story of Abraham. Which in turn raises questions about the purported nonexistence of Moses: if Abraham seems like a fairly real guy, maybe the more recent Moses is too.

    Replies: @Henry's Cat, @Chrisnonymous, @Paul Jolliffe, @For what it's worth, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    So Schliemann hired locals to dig and they found more than a dozen different cities of Troy on the same spot. Today, the controversy is over which Troy was the Troy of Priam and Hector.

    That inveterate liar and serial bungler! https://histastrophe.com/2018/04/23/that-asshole-heinrich-schliemann/

  61. @Reg Cæsar

    It also contains this line ‘I realised that for Juneteenth to live, Columbus Day had to die’.
     
    Protesters topple Christopher Columbus statue in Baltimore, roll it into harbor




    https://www.nydailynews.com/resizer/gaDItKYmv_XVkk4Ce1B8Xt9usLE=/800x600/top/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/tronc/OF6KQAZAOFHK5L7EGD7NOQU2MI.JPG

    Replies: @For what it's worth

    You’d think that Nancy D’Alesandro Pelosi, daughter of one Italian-American Mayor of Baltimore and sister to another, would be upset about this . . .

  62. @Anon
    What is the greatest black accomplishment in human history that doesn't involve sports, entertainment, or successfully demanding political changes from white people? Not a rhetorical question. I'd have to stop and think of an answer.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    Not sure about ‘in history’, but in re 20th century America, this may be your guy.

    https://www.biography.com/scientist/percy-julian

    • Replies: @Anonymous Jew
    @Art Deco

    How about a Black that wouldn’t look out of place in SS Africa? (ie because of obvious White admixture)

  63. @Art Deco
    @Anon

    Not sure about 'in history', but in re 20th century America, this may be your guy.

    https://www.biography.com/scientist/percy-julian

    Replies: @Anonymous Jew

    How about a Black that wouldn’t look out of place in SS Africa? (ie because of obvious White admixture)

  64. @Steve Sailer
    @Allen

    My general prejudice is that most old stories are based on _something_ that actually happened. For example, in the mid-19th Century, the leading German scholars believed that Troy never existed, that the legends of the Trojan War were just the reification of disputes over trade tensions. But businessman Heinrich Schliemann was too uneducated to believe that, so he went to the place where his study of the Iliad suggested Troy was. When he asked around, the locals told him, "Troy? Oh, sure. It's that hill over there."

    So Schliemann hired locals to dig and they found more than a dozen different cities of Troy on the same spot. Today, the controversy is over which Troy was the Troy of Priam and Hector.

    As for Moses ... well, he's clearly a hero. But if you go further back in the Bible, some of the stuff about Abraham is mythological, but mostly Abraham just seems like a successful businessman and not all that amazing of one either. I would imagine tens of millions of Americans have a ancestor within the last half dozen generations of whose exploits would be comparable to Abraham. In summary, while I could imagine making up the story of Moses, I couldn't imagine bothering to make up the entire story of Abraham. Which in turn raises questions about the purported nonexistence of Moses: if Abraham seems like a fairly real guy, maybe the more recent Moses is too.

    Replies: @Henry's Cat, @Chrisnonymous, @Paul Jolliffe, @For what it's worth, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Bible: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth…”

    Sailer: something actually happened!

    ; D

  65. Dre: ‘That’s because they make us feel like it’s whack. They make us feel like all of our stuff is whack ‘

    Deep down, they know. That’s why BLM happens–because they know.

  66. anon[317] • Disclaimer says:

    I’m surprised that most people weren’t already aware of Juneteenth. My family would often observe the celebrations in north Omaha, back in the 80’s (we were normally the only white people there). I have a vivid memory of a giant eye-buger falling from the eye of a food server into a bin of fired chicken. The giant eye burger had the same color and texture as the skin on the fried chicken. I couldn’t eat any fried chicken that day.

    (Had to write this anonymously. Why am I being told that ‘Jamie Bechtel’ isn’t a name that’s recognized?)

  67. @Known Fact
    @Ghost of Bull Moose

    At this point I would not even trust the GOP Senate to defeat a reparations bill

    Replies: @Wilkey, @MBlanc46

    At this point I would not even trust the GOP Senate to defeat a reparations bill.

    Easy peasy. Just make sure the reparations are paid for via some combination of higher estate, income and cap gains taxes, and watch Ritt Momney turn from Republican milquestoast to Republican firebrand in 8 seconds flat.

    • Replies: @Known Fact
    @Wilkey

    That's why the Fed will just print it out of thin air instead of taking it from white person A to give to black person B. But even just a paltry $25 apiece to each black person already adds up to a cool billion

  68. Anon[240] • Disclaimer says:

    I grew up in Western New York State (Hi, Buffalo Joe!) and never heard anything of Juneteenth until, during the late 90s, I met a guy from Texas who invited me down to visit and party on 6th Street in Austin. He told me, come any weekend except Texas Relays Weekend (first part of April) or Juneteenth weekend. I had no idea what he was talking about.

    I do now.

  69. There is a cutaway Hamilton-esque stunning and brave deconstruction of Columbus as if we didn’t already know these things about Columbus.

    That might be the worst piece of shit TV sketch I’ve seen since the last time I accidentally left the TV on for Stephen Colbert. So this show is actually still on? The best part of the clip is in the Woke version of the school play where Columbus orders the Indians to “Speak English!”

    Ummm….

    So anyhoo, of course this brings back fond memories of grade school plays celebrating American history. And of course we were taught that Columbus was wonderful and amazing. Part of the reason for that was….we were eight.

    And of course a big part of the problem with Woke history is that, even when it’s accurate, instead of ignoring the sins of our forefathers what it does is teach some of the schoolchildren that their ancestors were oppressed by the ancestors of the rest of the schoolchildren. Which isn’t likely to create any goodwill between the different sets of schoolchildren.

    I guess during this First Great Awokening what we really need to teach our eight-year-olds is some modern version of the old Jonathan Edwards sermon. Perhaps we could call it “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry Black Lesbian Transgender God.”

  70. @Ghost of Bull Moose
    Well, it looks like Johnson and Lankford have walked back their plan to replace Columbus Day with Juneteenth as a federal holiday. Sounds like they didn't want to add an 11th paid day off for Federal employees, but still. Not a good look for GOP Senators.

    Juneteenth is the kind of thing nobody on the left will admit to ever not knowing about. I only knew about it from the Ralph Ellison novel I didn't finish.

    Replies: @Known Fact, @James O'Meara

    Finally someone mentions Ralph Ellison’s novel! I never started it, but read an excerpt, “Cadillac Flambe” that was published in New American Review. It must really have stunk to be so completely forgotten, esp. since Invisible Man is still promoted as the African American Moby Dik.

    • Replies: @Ian Smith
    @James O'Meara

    I thought Invisible Man read like an unintentionally funny gothic minstrel show.

  71. @anon
    @Buffalo Joe

    But it ended up that way by accident. Columbus thought he had landed in India (Indies) and was disappointed it was a wasteland. So, more of getting lost/disoriented and still surviving story rather than voyage of discovery like Vasco da Gama, Magellan or Francis Drake.

    Replies: @Allen, @slumber_j, @Buffalo Joe

    TwoTwoFive, an accident but he replicated the feat several times. Have to give all those sailors credit. If I gave you a replica of his fleet, would you sail to Europe or even across Lake Superior, using only his rudimentary sailing instruments.

  72. @Steve Sailer
    @Allen

    My general prejudice is that most old stories are based on _something_ that actually happened. For example, in the mid-19th Century, the leading German scholars believed that Troy never existed, that the legends of the Trojan War were just the reification of disputes over trade tensions. But businessman Heinrich Schliemann was too uneducated to believe that, so he went to the place where his study of the Iliad suggested Troy was. When he asked around, the locals told him, "Troy? Oh, sure. It's that hill over there."

    So Schliemann hired locals to dig and they found more than a dozen different cities of Troy on the same spot. Today, the controversy is over which Troy was the Troy of Priam and Hector.

    As for Moses ... well, he's clearly a hero. But if you go further back in the Bible, some of the stuff about Abraham is mythological, but mostly Abraham just seems like a successful businessman and not all that amazing of one either. I would imagine tens of millions of Americans have a ancestor within the last half dozen generations of whose exploits would be comparable to Abraham. In summary, while I could imagine making up the story of Moses, I couldn't imagine bothering to make up the entire story of Abraham. Which in turn raises questions about the purported nonexistence of Moses: if Abraham seems like a fairly real guy, maybe the more recent Moses is too.

    Replies: @Henry's Cat, @Chrisnonymous, @Paul Jolliffe, @For what it's worth, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    The legend of Moses (c. 1300 BC) includes the details of his birth which are completely “borrowed” from Sargon of Akkad (2300 BC), right down to his mother setting him adrift as a baby in a basket on the Euphrates and then his being discovered and adopted by the royal family.

    Since Sargon was a real person, did the ancient Hebrews copy these details to give their man heroic origins?

    You bet, baby!

    https://www.ancient.eu/article/746/the-legend-of-sargon-of-akkad/

    • Replies: @SimpleSong
    @Paul Jolliffe

    Great point. I should clarify that I don't think some priest sat down one day and made up the Exodus story out of whole cloth, but it likely was a pastiche of a number of different stories that had been floating around in the Levant and the Fertile Crescent for centuries, with some of the details and timeline changed to advance a particular theological agenda. These stories themselves probably had some nubbin of truth but had been heavily warped and distorted even before they got blended together.

    You point out a great example: the Baby in the Bulrushes pretty clearly comes from the origin story of Sargon of Akkad, so insofar as Moses was a real person--he was Sargon of Akkad... I don't think Benjamin Netanyahu would appreciate that.

    The slaves in Egypt thing--perhaps a Canaanite work crew got stiffed on some wages, this got exaggerated as centuries of slavery under the Pharoh, and is still being complained about 3000 years later...

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    , @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Paul Jolliffe

    Not necessarily. Also, as you admit that Sargon was a real historical person, I'm sure that you'll concede that so were Kings David and Solomon, especially as they both lived 1500 yrs later, where better historical records were being kept.

    Replies: @Paul Jolliffe

  73. @SimpleSong
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    True, but there's actually no evidence that the Jews were enslaved in Egypt, ever. While pretty much all historians agree there was a historical figure named Jesus and a historical figure named Muhammad (regardless of what you think about their divinity, they certainly existed as real people), most also agree that the Exodus narrative is just...totally made up. Likely adapted from earlier sources during the Babylonian captivity, along with the rest of the Pentateuch, meaning monotheistic Judaism is actually not all that old, about 500 years older than Christianity.

    Looking at them as historical documents: the New Testament names the provincial Roman ruler (Pontius Pilate) and has a number of references to historical figures that are known from other sources (such as John the Baptist.) Likewise there are non-Christian pagan sources that discuss the development of early Christianity.

    In contrast, Exodus talks a lot about "the Pharoh". Which Pharoh? Never says. There are no details in the narrative that historians can link to any particular period in Egyptian history, it's just generic 'Egypt.'. Likewise no documents from Egyptian or other sources ever mention enslaved Jews or a slave revolt or anything of that nature.

    So the whole thing is probably a metaphor, perhaps 'Egypt' was a stand in for another imperial power (perhaps Babylon since this was likely written down in the middle of the Babylonian captivity.) Similar to how in Revelation "Babylon" is a code word/stand in for "Rome," obviously talking about the destruction of Rome by god would have had some consequences for the early Christians...

    Anyway Judaism has much less historicity than either Christianity or Islam, or Buddhism, for that matter. If I'm not mistaken the consensus is that it evolved out of polytheistic Caananite religions during the bronze age; El was the name of the chief god but a variety of gods were worshiped (Baal for example), Yahweh was another god that was particularly revered in the kingdoms of Judah and Israel, analagous to how Athena was revered in Athens. Eventually Yahweh came to be seen as the chief god, then the only god, approximately at the time the Old testament was being finalized in approx. 500 BC. As part of this process they were integrating a bunch of older sources and were trying to shoehorn the narrative of Yahweh as the main and only god into some older narratives.

    So in Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuterotomy, in the original Hebrew apparently there are passages that refer to god as "El", and then nearly identical passages that say the same thing but refer to god as "Yahweh." (I don't speak Hebrew so can't confirm, of course all English translations just say "The Lord" for both El and Yahweh...) This residual ambiguity is likely leftover from some very contentious committee meetings.

    Anyway, takeaways: Jews were never slaves in Egypt, ever. Moses and Abraham likely did not exist as historical figures. Monotheistic Judaism is only about 500 years older than Christianity, prior to this the Canaanite kingdoms of Israel and Judah were polytheistic. Monotheism was not a new invention but rather the promotion of the local god of Israel and Judah into the top spot.

    This is why when Jews make fun of Mormons for believing god came to upstate New York and showed Joseph Smith some golden plates, I roll my eyes. Judaism is super-duper made up, much more so than most religions. There really was a guy named Jesus, he really did get crucified by the Romans. Some people believe he was he the son of god, some people believe he was a prophet, some people believe he was just a person, but he definitely existed. Same deal with Muhammad. On the other hand, no, there was never a guy named Moses who led the Jews out of Egypt. There is zero historical evidence for anything remotely resembling that occuring.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Allen, @James O'Meara, @Kratoklastes

    Good stuff overall, but I must point out that

    “Looking at them as historical documents: the New Testament names the provincial Roman ruler (Pontius Pilate) and has a number of references to historical figures that are known from other sources (such as John the Baptist.)”

    would make the works of Taylor Caldwell or Gore Vidal historical documents.

    • Replies: @SimpleSong
    @James O'Meara

    That's true, and actually a pretty apt analogy--if you compare the description of Jesus' final days in the different gospels they are all the same in broad strokes but the details are totally different. Did Pontius Pilate and Jesus have long philosophical conversations ("Quid est veritas?"), or did Jesus remain silent? Depends on whether you read Mark or John. Which one is right? Well, for one of them to be right, one of the apostles would have had to been in the room with Jesus and Pilate to see what actually happened and tell about it later. That seems highly, highly unlikely. So probably all of the gospels are best thought of as works of historical interpretation, a la Caldwell or Vidal.

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @James O'Meara


    ...would make the works of Taylor Caldwell or Gore Vidal historical documents.
     
    Oh, but Miss Caldwell was on the scene, an eyewitness!

    The Search for a Soul: Taylor Caldwell's Psychic Lives


    General Patton may have been with her.

    These are the 8 reincarnations of General George S. Patton
  74. @Anonymous
    @SimpleSong

    As I recall, there is no surviving artifact that mentions a prophet named "Muhammad" either during what is now accepted as Muhammad's life or for a Century after that. I haven't followed that closely, though.

    Amazing how much of what people know aint so.

    Replies: @James O'Meara

    All Semite religions are pious frauds (hey, Christians even invented the term!), which the naive and honorable goyim fall for. It’s no surprise the dumbest goyim are the one who believe in literalism.

    Bart Ehrman’s total evidence for Jesus: the Gospels are based on hypothetical oral traditions that we don’t have evidence for, which must have been based on someone we don’t know anything else about. Pretty thin gruel.

    On Mummy, see Robert (not Richard!) Spencer:

    • Replies: @For what it's worth
    @James O'Meara

    You don't know what you're talking about. I know something about ancient history and how we look at sources. The Gospels were written within the lifetime of witnesses of the events narrated. That's a lot better than a lot of what counts as "history."

  75. drop rape-enabler MLK Day. I like making Juneteenth the natl black holiday

  76. Didn’t they find chariot wheels beneath the Red Sea a few years ago?

    As for the pyramids, I suspect they were built thousands of years before the ancient Egyptians.
    There are drill holes and very smooth surfaced coffins at the Giza plateau that couldn’t possibly have been made with the stone and copper tools available available to the Egyptians.

  77. @Paul Jolliffe
    @Steve Sailer

    The legend of Moses (c. 1300 BC) includes the details of his birth which are completely “borrowed” from Sargon of Akkad (2300 BC), right down to his mother setting him adrift as a baby in a basket on the Euphrates and then his being discovered and adopted by the royal family.

    Since Sargon was a real person, did the ancient Hebrews copy these details to give their man heroic origins?

    You bet, baby!

    https://www.ancient.eu/article/746/the-legend-of-sargon-of-akkad/

    Replies: @SimpleSong, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Great point. I should clarify that I don’t think some priest sat down one day and made up the Exodus story out of whole cloth, but it likely was a pastiche of a number of different stories that had been floating around in the Levant and the Fertile Crescent for centuries, with some of the details and timeline changed to advance a particular theological agenda. These stories themselves probably had some nubbin of truth but had been heavily warped and distorted even before they got blended together.

    You point out a great example: the Baby in the Bulrushes pretty clearly comes from the origin story of Sargon of Akkad, so insofar as Moses was a real person–he was Sargon of Akkad… I don’t think Benjamin Netanyahu would appreciate that.

    The slaves in Egypt thing–perhaps a Canaanite work crew got stiffed on some wages, this got exaggerated as centuries of slavery under the Pharoh, and is still being complained about 3000 years later…

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @SimpleSong

    "The slaves in Egypt thing–perhaps a Canaanite work crew got stiffed on some wages, this got exaggerated as centuries of slavery under the Pharoh, and is still being complained about 3000 years later…"

    It seems as though you have a problem with the possibility that the Israelites were enslaved by Egypt. Did slavery exist during the Bronze and Iron Ages? It most certainly did. For a large part, the OT was considered to be fairly accurate historical accounts of what transpired. Albeit they didn't have sophisticated methods of composing historical accounts (few cultures did during those eras).

    But the basic outline: That a person known as Moses existed, and led his fellow tribesmen out from the bondage of a major world civilization at the time into a smaller land next door, etc. Those things were written as basic historical facts. On one level, it would make sense that Egyptians at that time would tend to downplay if not outright deny that they had lost a source of capital (slaves) and in a fairly embarrassing way.

    Also the fact that unlike most other world faiths, Judaism kept a genealogical track of their ancestors (not arguing for or against the number per se) but that these official records were kept, tends to go toward saying that many other things in the OT has historical value (e.g. place names of towns and cities, actual historical peoples/tribes, etc).

    As you admittedly stated that you're not a scholar of Biblical languages, archeology, etc. then that makes it mere opinion no worse or better than someone elses.

  78. @Steve Sailer
    @Allen

    My general prejudice is that most old stories are based on _something_ that actually happened. For example, in the mid-19th Century, the leading German scholars believed that Troy never existed, that the legends of the Trojan War were just the reification of disputes over trade tensions. But businessman Heinrich Schliemann was too uneducated to believe that, so he went to the place where his study of the Iliad suggested Troy was. When he asked around, the locals told him, "Troy? Oh, sure. It's that hill over there."

    So Schliemann hired locals to dig and they found more than a dozen different cities of Troy on the same spot. Today, the controversy is over which Troy was the Troy of Priam and Hector.

    As for Moses ... well, he's clearly a hero. But if you go further back in the Bible, some of the stuff about Abraham is mythological, but mostly Abraham just seems like a successful businessman and not all that amazing of one either. I would imagine tens of millions of Americans have a ancestor within the last half dozen generations of whose exploits would be comparable to Abraham. In summary, while I could imagine making up the story of Moses, I couldn't imagine bothering to make up the entire story of Abraham. Which in turn raises questions about the purported nonexistence of Moses: if Abraham seems like a fairly real guy, maybe the more recent Moses is too.

    Replies: @Henry's Cat, @Chrisnonymous, @Paul Jolliffe, @For what it's worth, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    At the end of his life, Jacob seems unimpressed with his own story. When Pharaoh asks him for his biography, Jacob basically says, “Life sucks,” then walks out:

    “9 He answered: The days of my pilgrimage are a hundred and thirty years, few, and evil, and they are not come up to the days of the pilgrimage of my fathers.

    10 And blessing the king, he went out.

    –Gen. 47:9-10

  79. @James O'Meara
    @SimpleSong

    Good stuff overall, but I must point out that

    "Looking at them as historical documents: the New Testament names the provincial Roman ruler (Pontius Pilate) and has a number of references to historical figures that are known from other sources (such as John the Baptist.)"

    would make the works of Taylor Caldwell or Gore Vidal historical documents.

    Replies: @SimpleSong, @Reg Cæsar

    That’s true, and actually a pretty apt analogy–if you compare the description of Jesus’ final days in the different gospels they are all the same in broad strokes but the details are totally different. Did Pontius Pilate and Jesus have long philosophical conversations (“Quid est veritas?”), or did Jesus remain silent? Depends on whether you read Mark or John. Which one is right? Well, for one of them to be right, one of the apostles would have had to been in the room with Jesus and Pilate to see what actually happened and tell about it later. That seems highly, highly unlikely. So probably all of the gospels are best thought of as works of historical interpretation, a la Caldwell or Vidal.

  80. @James O'Meara
    @Anonymous

    All Semite religions are pious frauds (hey, Christians even invented the term!), which the naive and honorable goyim fall for. It's no surprise the dumbest goyim are the one who believe in literalism.

    Bart Ehrman's total evidence for Jesus: the Gospels are based on hypothetical oral traditions that we don't have evidence for, which must have been based on someone we don't know anything else about. Pretty thin gruel.

    On Mummy, see Robert (not Richard!) Spencer:

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00JBRUKMG/ref=kinw_myk_ro_title

    Replies: @For what it's worth

    You don’t know what you’re talking about. I know something about ancient history and how we look at sources. The Gospels were written within the lifetime of witnesses of the events narrated. That’s a lot better than a lot of what counts as “history.”

  81. @James O'Meara
    @SimpleSong

    Good stuff overall, but I must point out that

    "Looking at them as historical documents: the New Testament names the provincial Roman ruler (Pontius Pilate) and has a number of references to historical figures that are known from other sources (such as John the Baptist.)"

    would make the works of Taylor Caldwell or Gore Vidal historical documents.

    Replies: @SimpleSong, @Reg Cæsar

    …would make the works of Taylor Caldwell or Gore Vidal historical documents.

    Oh, but Miss Caldwell was on the scene, an eyewitness!

    The Search for a Soul: Taylor Caldwell’s Psychic Lives

    General Patton may have been with her.

    These are the 8 reincarnations of General George S. Patton

  82. @PaceLaw
    Well Steve isn’t the only one to notice that the ever increasing “Mulatto Mafia” is working overtime these days. Jason Whitlock, a black, iconoclastic sports writer, recently wrote an article on the machinations of the mulatto mafia. The term “tragic mulatto“ never seemed so appropriate.
    https://outkick.com/mixed-messages-on-race-increasing-polarization/

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen, @Treqaz

    Mulattoes and half-Jews always end up being extremely anti-white, although for exact opposite reasons.

    Mulattoes always identify with their black side, and actively hate white people in order to prove their blackness.

    Half-Jews, on the other hand, actually hate their Jewish side. Since Jews are considered white by most people, this results in them hating white people by extension. They feel that by attacking white people, they’re attacking Jews. The historic affinity that half-Jews and quarter-Jews have for communism is also because they hate their Jewish side. They feel that communism is a way to attack greedy Jewish capitalists.

  83. @SimpleSong
    @Paul Jolliffe

    Great point. I should clarify that I don't think some priest sat down one day and made up the Exodus story out of whole cloth, but it likely was a pastiche of a number of different stories that had been floating around in the Levant and the Fertile Crescent for centuries, with some of the details and timeline changed to advance a particular theological agenda. These stories themselves probably had some nubbin of truth but had been heavily warped and distorted even before they got blended together.

    You point out a great example: the Baby in the Bulrushes pretty clearly comes from the origin story of Sargon of Akkad, so insofar as Moses was a real person--he was Sargon of Akkad... I don't think Benjamin Netanyahu would appreciate that.

    The slaves in Egypt thing--perhaps a Canaanite work crew got stiffed on some wages, this got exaggerated as centuries of slavery under the Pharoh, and is still being complained about 3000 years later...

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    “The slaves in Egypt thing–perhaps a Canaanite work crew got stiffed on some wages, this got exaggerated as centuries of slavery under the Pharoh, and is still being complained about 3000 years later…”

    It seems as though you have a problem with the possibility that the Israelites were enslaved by Egypt. Did slavery exist during the Bronze and Iron Ages? It most certainly did. For a large part, the OT was considered to be fairly accurate historical accounts of what transpired. Albeit they didn’t have sophisticated methods of composing historical accounts (few cultures did during those eras).

    But the basic outline: That a person known as Moses existed, and led his fellow tribesmen out from the bondage of a major world civilization at the time into a smaller land next door, etc. Those things were written as basic historical facts. On one level, it would make sense that Egyptians at that time would tend to downplay if not outright deny that they had lost a source of capital (slaves) and in a fairly embarrassing way.

    Also the fact that unlike most other world faiths, Judaism kept a genealogical track of their ancestors (not arguing for or against the number per se) but that these official records were kept, tends to go toward saying that many other things in the OT has historical value (e.g. place names of towns and cities, actual historical peoples/tribes, etc).

    As you admittedly stated that you’re not a scholar of Biblical languages, archeology, etc. then that makes it mere opinion no worse or better than someone elses.

  84. @Paul Jolliffe
    @Steve Sailer

    The legend of Moses (c. 1300 BC) includes the details of his birth which are completely “borrowed” from Sargon of Akkad (2300 BC), right down to his mother setting him adrift as a baby in a basket on the Euphrates and then his being discovered and adopted by the royal family.

    Since Sargon was a real person, did the ancient Hebrews copy these details to give their man heroic origins?

    You bet, baby!

    https://www.ancient.eu/article/746/the-legend-of-sargon-of-akkad/

    Replies: @SimpleSong, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Not necessarily. Also, as you admit that Sargon was a real historical person, I’m sure that you’ll concede that so were Kings David and Solomon, especially as they both lived 1500 yrs later, where better historical records were being kept.

    • Replies: @Paul Jolliffe
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Well, what we have on Sargon from 2300 BC is pretty mythic. His legends were transcribed in cuneiform later.

    However, the legends of David and Solomon are equally mythic, despite living 1400 years later.
    Did they actually exist?
    Maybe.
    Were they the rulers of some fabulously rich empire?
    No evidence exists.

    My original point was to show that the Hebrew scribe who eventually wrote the Moses story “borrowed” details from the Sargon legend - in other words, the Old Testament is not a literal historical record of real events, but instead is a creative narratative of conflated biographies, details and outright fiction.

  85. @Steve Sailer
    @Allen

    My general prejudice is that most old stories are based on _something_ that actually happened. For example, in the mid-19th Century, the leading German scholars believed that Troy never existed, that the legends of the Trojan War were just the reification of disputes over trade tensions. But businessman Heinrich Schliemann was too uneducated to believe that, so he went to the place where his study of the Iliad suggested Troy was. When he asked around, the locals told him, "Troy? Oh, sure. It's that hill over there."

    So Schliemann hired locals to dig and they found more than a dozen different cities of Troy on the same spot. Today, the controversy is over which Troy was the Troy of Priam and Hector.

    As for Moses ... well, he's clearly a hero. But if you go further back in the Bible, some of the stuff about Abraham is mythological, but mostly Abraham just seems like a successful businessman and not all that amazing of one either. I would imagine tens of millions of Americans have a ancestor within the last half dozen generations of whose exploits would be comparable to Abraham. In summary, while I could imagine making up the story of Moses, I couldn't imagine bothering to make up the entire story of Abraham. Which in turn raises questions about the purported nonexistence of Moses: if Abraham seems like a fairly real guy, maybe the more recent Moses is too.

    Replies: @Henry's Cat, @Chrisnonymous, @Paul Jolliffe, @For what it's worth, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    “My general prejudice is that most old stories are based on _something_ that actually happened. ”

    That fairly sums up how modern biblical archeological excavations were begun: interested parties searching for accuracy in a book that they had long been reading for generations.

  86. @Dr. X
    Celebratin' Joomteemf in Charlotte!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPd9zmTtjv4

    https://www.wbtv.com/2020/06/23/gunshots-fired-mass-casualty-incident-north-charlotte-block-party-dead/

    Replies: @Change that Matters, @Kibernetika

    It’s really weird, but these deadly incidents always take place in areas with particular ethnic/demographic characteristics. I’m still trying to figure it out, by golly!

    We may never know.

  87. @Wilkey
    @Known Fact


    At this point I would not even trust the GOP Senate to defeat a reparations bill.

     

    Easy peasy. Just make sure the reparations are paid for via some combination of higher estate, income and cap gains taxes, and watch Ritt Momney turn from Republican milquestoast to Republican firebrand in 8 seconds flat.

    Replies: @Known Fact

    That’s why the Fed will just print it out of thin air instead of taking it from white person A to give to black person B. But even just a paltry $25 apiece to each black person already adds up to a cool billion

  88. So, we don’t actually have to listen to Democrat campaign speeches. Once in power, Democrats will play act bad HBO, BET, Amazon, and Netflix original content because crap TV is all that these intellectual bottom feeders know. Now wonder the oligarchs are investing so heavily in the creation of streaming content.

    Seriously,…

    https://www.redstate.com/elizabeth-vaughn/2020/06/25/undercover-hubers-theory-about-where-biden-got-idea-to-use-the-logan-act-on-flynn-sounds-crazy-but/

  89. Have any of you ever read the “Emancipation” Proclamation? It arguably didn’t free anyone. It clearly states that slaves in Federally held territory, including some Virginia and other states’ counties, and states not in “rebellion” (KY, etc.) were exempt from being freed. The areas it alleges to free the slaves in, should the war have gone differently, were not subject to U.S. proclamations.

    • Replies: @Kratoklastes
    @John Henry

    Yes, everyone outside the US Exceptionalist bandwagon knows that; it's also common knowledge that Abraham "American Jesus" Lincoln was a grifter and a bullshit-artist, and so nobody ought to be surprised.

    I want someone at #BLM to get hold of his letter to Horace Greeley (TL;DR: "Slavery? Who gives a fuck! Save the Union!"), or the text of his debate with Douglas... and see his views writ large:


    “I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races … I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be a position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.”
     
    Tear down the Lincoln Memorial.

    Replies: @John Henry

  90. @Known Fact
    @Ghost of Bull Moose

    At this point I would not even trust the GOP Senate to defeat a reparations bill

    Replies: @Wilkey, @MBlanc46

    They certainly wouldn’t try to defeat a reparations bill.

  91. @SimpleSong
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    True, but there's actually no evidence that the Jews were enslaved in Egypt, ever. While pretty much all historians agree there was a historical figure named Jesus and a historical figure named Muhammad (regardless of what you think about their divinity, they certainly existed as real people), most also agree that the Exodus narrative is just...totally made up. Likely adapted from earlier sources during the Babylonian captivity, along with the rest of the Pentateuch, meaning monotheistic Judaism is actually not all that old, about 500 years older than Christianity.

    Looking at them as historical documents: the New Testament names the provincial Roman ruler (Pontius Pilate) and has a number of references to historical figures that are known from other sources (such as John the Baptist.) Likewise there are non-Christian pagan sources that discuss the development of early Christianity.

    In contrast, Exodus talks a lot about "the Pharoh". Which Pharoh? Never says. There are no details in the narrative that historians can link to any particular period in Egyptian history, it's just generic 'Egypt.'. Likewise no documents from Egyptian or other sources ever mention enslaved Jews or a slave revolt or anything of that nature.

    So the whole thing is probably a metaphor, perhaps 'Egypt' was a stand in for another imperial power (perhaps Babylon since this was likely written down in the middle of the Babylonian captivity.) Similar to how in Revelation "Babylon" is a code word/stand in for "Rome," obviously talking about the destruction of Rome by god would have had some consequences for the early Christians...

    Anyway Judaism has much less historicity than either Christianity or Islam, or Buddhism, for that matter. If I'm not mistaken the consensus is that it evolved out of polytheistic Caananite religions during the bronze age; El was the name of the chief god but a variety of gods were worshiped (Baal for example), Yahweh was another god that was particularly revered in the kingdoms of Judah and Israel, analagous to how Athena was revered in Athens. Eventually Yahweh came to be seen as the chief god, then the only god, approximately at the time the Old testament was being finalized in approx. 500 BC. As part of this process they were integrating a bunch of older sources and were trying to shoehorn the narrative of Yahweh as the main and only god into some older narratives.

    So in Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuterotomy, in the original Hebrew apparently there are passages that refer to god as "El", and then nearly identical passages that say the same thing but refer to god as "Yahweh." (I don't speak Hebrew so can't confirm, of course all English translations just say "The Lord" for both El and Yahweh...) This residual ambiguity is likely leftover from some very contentious committee meetings.

    Anyway, takeaways: Jews were never slaves in Egypt, ever. Moses and Abraham likely did not exist as historical figures. Monotheistic Judaism is only about 500 years older than Christianity, prior to this the Canaanite kingdoms of Israel and Judah were polytheistic. Monotheism was not a new invention but rather the promotion of the local god of Israel and Judah into the top spot.

    This is why when Jews make fun of Mormons for believing god came to upstate New York and showed Joseph Smith some golden plates, I roll my eyes. Judaism is super-duper made up, much more so than most religions. There really was a guy named Jesus, he really did get crucified by the Romans. Some people believe he was he the son of god, some people believe he was a prophet, some people believe he was just a person, but he definitely existed. Same deal with Muhammad. On the other hand, no, there was never a guy named Moses who led the Jews out of Egypt. There is zero historical evidence for anything remotely resembling that occuring.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Allen, @James O'Meara, @Kratoklastes

    pretty much all historians agree there was a historical figure named Jesus

    The truth advances one funeral at a time.

    The old guard who believed everything from soup to nuts, is now 2 generations dead – outside of backward shitholes like the US Bible Belt.

    It wasn’t until the 1990s that “pretty much all historians” accepted the evidence Moses, Avram, Isaac etc (basically, the Founding Fathers of the cock-slasher cult) were fictional characters.

    Now, Old Testament mythicism is the dominant paradigm.

    The guy doing the heavy lifting (Thomas L Thompson) on the idea that most of the Old Nonsense was horse-shit, was calumniated for two decades – including claims of… you guessed it… antisemitism.

    As it went for the Old Nonsense, so it will go for the fanfic New Nonsense. The Gospels are already known to be ahistorical garbage that are inconsistent – and the Epistles are post-mortem fanfic written by a partisan.

    The Jeebus Myth hypothesis puts a lot of money at risk for the Apex Grifters: even so, it will become the dominant paradigm as soon as the grifters can work out a way to ‘pivot’ in such a way that they can keep the money flowing.

    Thus far they’ve been able to ditch some of the really obvious ahistorical nonsense (Genesis, Exodus, Joshua, the virgin birth etc) without too much damage to cash flow – but actually declaring that the guy right at the centre of the grift is a cartoon character… that might be a harder row to hoe. It will take a bunch of conclaves before they get the new “This is how it’s always been” story right.

    Coz let’s get what it will mean when the Mythicism view wins: it means Jeebus is the same class of thing as Hercules, Thor, or any of dozens of other composite fictional heroes.

    .

    When I say “they’ve been able to ditch” etc… ask yourself how many different flavours of the Jeebus cult would still take seriously things like the 1978 Chicago Declaration on Biblical Inerrancy.

    Now obviously, that’s mostly the views of US whackball evangelical charlatans… so you can’t expect them to say sensible shit, and their audience is mostly morons.

    What about the Papists?

    Well, inerrancy is still part of the cake – after Vatican II they realised that even Catholics could work oput which bits are stupid, so Rome went with “Oh, we’re doing ‘Inerrancy Lite’ now: ‘inerrancy’ it only applies to the bits where there’s no evidence yet that it’s bullshit. That’s how we’ve always done it” (in Dei Verbum [1965]).

    Although this is advertised as being entirely-consistent-with-and-not-at-all-a-departure-from old-timey doctrine, it is a complete departure from their entire ‘inerrancy’ narrative as recorded all the way from St. Augustine (De Gen. ad litt. 2, 9), through to pre-Vatican II encyclicals Providentissimus Deus (1893), Divino Afflante Spiritu (1943) and a relatively unimportant thing called the Catechism of the Catholic Church (par. 107).

    The Money Shot from Providentissimus Deus – making it absolutely clear that inerrancy is a plenary concept, not a “pick the non-refuted bits” selection box…

    But it is absolutely wrong and forbidden, either to narrow inspiration to certain parts only of Holy Scripture, or to admit that the sacred writer has erred. For the system of those who, in order to rid themselves of these difficulties, do not hesitate to concede that divine inspiration regards the things of faith and morals, and nothing beyond, because (as they wrongly think) in a question of the truth or falsehood of a passage, we should consider not so much what God has said as the reason and purpose which He had in mind in saying it — this system cannot be tolerated.

    In the 60s, Apex Charlatans like König – in response to clear, obvious, “it’s been there for 1500 years” evidence of scientific, factual and historical errors – decided that it would be sensible to change “Cum ergo omne id, quod” to “Cum ergo veritas — vel veritas Sacrae Scripturae — quam“. That is “only the true bits are true“.

    Fucking charlatans – but it worked (kinda). Give ’em credit: they know their audience… viz., ignorant fuckwits who don’t pay attention, and think that the latest version has always been in the ‘magisterium’.

    .

    Anyhow… TL;DR: once the purely-mythological nature of the Jeebus story is accepted – in another 20 years when the current Dead-Enders are dead – the Apex Grifters in each version of the cult will edit their doctrine and say “Oh, yeah… we always knew that. That’s literally what we thought all along.”

    They’ve gotten away with that for 2 millennia: they’re in a different information market now. They’re trying to be Kodak when everyone’s got a smartphone.

  92. @John Henry
    Have any of you ever read the "Emancipation" Proclamation? It arguably didn't free anyone. It clearly states that slaves in Federally held territory, including some Virginia and other states' counties, and states not in "rebellion" (KY, etc.) were exempt from being freed. The areas it alleges to free the slaves in, should the war have gone differently, were not subject to U.S. proclamations.

    Replies: @Kratoklastes

    Yes, everyone outside the US Exceptionalist bandwagon knows that; it’s also common knowledge that Abraham “American Jesus” Lincoln was a grifter and a bullshit-artist, and so nobody ought to be surprised.

    I want someone at #BLM to get hold of his letter to Horace Greeley (TL;DR: “Slavery? Who gives a fuck! Save the Union!“), or the text of his debate with Douglas… and see his views writ large:

    “I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races … I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be a position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.”

    Tear down the Lincoln Memorial.

    • Agree: BB753
    • Replies: @John Henry
    @Kratoklastes

    Thank you.

    Among other things I am pretty sure the Proclamation is what we now call an Executive Order. A command to those working for the Federal Government, not having the force of law with anyone else.

    To those who think this freed the slaves in any manner, but purport to support the Constitution, never seem to realize that it was (IMHO) still lawful for slave ownership at the time where it already existed. That an executive order could NOT free the slaves. That had to be done by legislation, and ultimately the 13th Amendment.

    JH

  93. @Reg Cæsar

    Never forget blacks and Jews are on the same side[,] viewer!
     
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ENEoD1qW4AA9BeV.jpg

    Replies: @Cortes, @duncsbaby

    Written by John Hughes the great 80’s movie director of Sixteen Candles, Breakfast Club and my personal favorite, Weird Science.

    Funnily enough Hughes also was a producer on some movies of director, Chris Columbus (Home Alone, Only The Lonely).

    Oh well all that clean fun has been flushed down the toilet now.

  94. @Kratoklastes
    @John Henry

    Yes, everyone outside the US Exceptionalist bandwagon knows that; it's also common knowledge that Abraham "American Jesus" Lincoln was a grifter and a bullshit-artist, and so nobody ought to be surprised.

    I want someone at #BLM to get hold of his letter to Horace Greeley (TL;DR: "Slavery? Who gives a fuck! Save the Union!"), or the text of his debate with Douglas... and see his views writ large:


    “I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races … I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be a position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.”
     
    Tear down the Lincoln Memorial.

    Replies: @John Henry

    Thank you.

    Among other things I am pretty sure the Proclamation is what we now call an Executive Order. A command to those working for the Federal Government, not having the force of law with anyone else.

    To those who think this freed the slaves in any manner, but purport to support the Constitution, never seem to realize that it was (IMHO) still lawful for slave ownership at the time where it already existed. That an executive order could NOT free the slaves. That had to be done by legislation, and ultimately the 13th Amendment.

    JH

  95. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Paul Jolliffe

    Not necessarily. Also, as you admit that Sargon was a real historical person, I'm sure that you'll concede that so were Kings David and Solomon, especially as they both lived 1500 yrs later, where better historical records were being kept.

    Replies: @Paul Jolliffe

    Well, what we have on Sargon from 2300 BC is pretty mythic. His legends were transcribed in cuneiform later.

    However, the legends of David and Solomon are equally mythic, despite living 1400 years later.
    Did they actually exist?
    Maybe.
    Were they the rulers of some fabulously rich empire?
    No evidence exists.

    My original point was to show that the Hebrew scribe who eventually wrote the Moses story “borrowed” details from the Sargon legend – in other words, the Old Testament is not a literal historical record of real events, but instead is a creative narratative of conflated biographies, details and outright fiction.

  96. Juneteenth

    June[up]teenth

    This has got to be upteenth time we’ve been asked to give blacks another special something to mollify their systemically induced temper tantrums.

  97. @James O'Meara
    @Ghost of Bull Moose

    Finally someone mentions Ralph Ellison's novel! I never started it, but read an excerpt, "Cadillac Flambe" that was published in New American Review. It must really have stunk to be so completely forgotten, esp. since Invisible Man is still promoted as the African American Moby Dik.

    Replies: @Ian Smith

    I thought Invisible Man read like an unintentionally funny gothic minstrel show.

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The unspoken statistical reality of urban crime over the last quarter century.
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