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Joyce Carol Oates: Publishing Industry Is Biased Against Young White Male Authors
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Veteran literary novelist Joyce Carol Oates remarks on the bias against young white male authors in today’s publishing industry. She immediately gets ratioed by hundreds of angry replies telling her that young white men are not discriminated against but ought to be:

Others have noticed the same trend. From The Guardian (with a London rather than New York set of examples, but I doubt the pattern is much different on this side of the Atlantic):

How women conquered the world of fiction

by Johanna Thomas-Corr
@JohannaTC
Sun 16 May 2021

In March, Vintage, one of the UK’s largest literary fiction divisions, announced the five debut novelists it would be championing this year: Megan Nolan, Pip Williams, Ailsa McFarlane, Jo Hamya and Vera Kurian.

All five of them are women. But you could be forgiven for not noticing it, so commonplace are female-dominated lists in 2021. Over the past 12 months, almost all of the buzz in fiction has been around young women: Patricia Lockwood, Yaa Gyasi, Raven Leilani, Avni Doshi, Lauren Oyler. … The energy, as anyone in the publishing world will tell you, is with women.

So is the media coverage. Over the past five years, the Observer’s annual debut novelist feature has showcased 44 writers, 33 of whom were female. You will find similar ratios on prize shortlists. Men were missing among the recent names of nominees for the Costa first novel award. Here, too, the shortlisted authors over the past five years have been 75% female. This year’s Rathbones prize featured only one man on a shortlist of eight. The Dylan Thomas prize shortlist found room for one man (as well as a non-binary author), and so too did the Author’s Club best first novel award, which prompted the chair of judges, Lucy Popescu, to remark: “It’s lovely to see women dominating the shortlist.”

Judges take pride in being biased.

But not everyone in publishing sees it in such benign terms. “Why is that ‘lovely to see’?” a male publisher emailed me shortly after the list was announced. “Can you imagine the opposite, a shortlist of five men and one woman, about which the chair says, ‘It’s lovely to see men dominating the shortlist’?”

A generation ago the shortlists were dominated by men: the “big beasts” of the 80s and 90s. Martin Amis, Julian Barnes, Ian McEwan, William Boyd, Kazuo Ishiguro et al in the UK and Philip Roth, John Updike and Saul Bellow in the US. The writers we considered our leading novelists were men. This has changed, and while it is almost universally accepted with publishing that the current era of female dominance is positive – not to mention overdue and necessary, considering the previous 6,000 or so years of male cultural hegemony – there are, increasingly, dissenting voices among publishers, agents and writers. They feel that men – and especially young men – are being shut out of an industry that is blind to its own prejudices.

That male publisher is at pains to point out that, yes, “the exciting writing is coming from women right now” and that he himself publishes more women. But this is “because there aren’t that many men around. Men aren’t coming through.”

Many women may instinctively take a dim view of men saying they need better representation. There were similar worries voiced when girls started to do better in their GCSEs than boys; there are whenever women are able to compete on equal terms to men. And certainly, when you raise this issue with anyone in publishing, you tend to receive an eye-roll – perhaps followed by a “Hang on! Wasn’t last year’s Booker prize-winner a man?” Those who don’t believe there is a problem will pounce on Douglas Stuart, author of Shuggie Bain, as evidence of male supremacy. But they will often struggle to name younger men making their way on to awards lists or bestseller charts. There’s Max Porter… Sam Byers… a handful of Americans such as Ben Lerner and Brandon Taylor. Yet few of these men are household names and none has anything like the cultural buzz of a Sally Rooney.

Why is this? That same male publisher points to the Vintage promotion in particular, noting that almost all the editors in that division are female. (Of 19 editors commissioning fiction at Vintage, only four are men.) And this isn’t just one team in one company, he argues – it’s a gender balance replicated across the industry. (A diversity survey, released in February by the UK Publishers Association, had 64% of the publishing workforce as female with women making up 78% of editorial, 83% of marketing and 92% of publicity.)

“Whenever I send out a novel to editors, the list [of names] is nearly all female,” a male agent says. Like the publisher – who fears being seen as “some kind of men’s rights activist” – he will only speak on condition of anonymity. The subject is such a hornet’s nest that almost every man in the books industry who I approached refused to speak on the record for fear of the backlash.

“I’ve grumbled about it for years whenever I’m at a publishing dinner party. I get roundly told to shut up,” the agent says. But it’s not the gender make-up that bothers him, he insists, it’s the prevailing groupthink – the lack of interest in male novelists and the widespread idea that the male voice is problematic.

“I was having a meeting the other day with yet another 28-year-old woman,” he continues. “I always ask editors, ‘What are you looking for’, and she happened to say, ‘What I really want is a generational family drama’. I said, ‘Oh, like The Corrections by Jonathan Franzen?’ and honestly, you would think I’d said Mein Kampf. She said, ‘No! Nothing like that!’. And I thought, ‘But that’s literally what you’ve described!’”

Hannah Westland, publisher of the literary imprint Serpent’s Tail, says she’s not always confident that there’s a market for fiction written by young men. “If a really good novel by a male writer lands on my desk, I do genuinely say to myself, this will be more difficult to publish.” She believes that the “paths to success” are narrower because there are fewer prizes open to men, fewer magazines that will cover male authors, and fewer media figures willing to champion them – in the way that, for example, Dolly Alderton and Pandora Sykes have championed female authors on their podcasts.

According to figures obtained from the Bookseller, 629 of the 1,000 bestselling fiction titles from 2020 were written by women (27 were co-authored by men and women and three were by non-binary writers, leaving 341 by men). Within the “general and literary fiction” category, 75% were by female authors – 75% female-25% male appearing to be something of a golden ratio in contemporary publishing.

The general consensus is that young male writers have given up on literary fiction. They see more possibilities in narrative nonfiction (particularly travelogues and nature writing in the vein of Robert Macfarlane) or genre fiction (especially crime and sci-fi), which is less mediated by the culture and the conversations on Twitter.

… “What’s really interesting is that if I’m publishing a black, gay man, I’m more likely to gain traction with their story because it’s considered original and it fits the #diversevoices box,” she says. “Whereas if it’s a white, working-class man, it seems to be much harder to break through.”

… But regardless of class, do men, or at least male readers, actually want a look-in? Whenever I speak to men in their 20s, 30s and 40s, most tell me they couldn’t give a toss about fiction, especially literary fiction. They have video games, YouTube, nonfiction, podcasts, magazines, Netflix. Megan Nolan, whose debut novel, Acts of Desperation, is one of this year’s biggest literary hits, says: “The only men I know who actively seek out and read fiction work in that field. I don’t think many men I know would read more than one novel every two years.”

… Male writers definitely seem to be feeling more reticent about sex. Choire Sicha argued more than a decade ago in the New York Observer that his generation of male novelists (Jonathan Safran Foer, Joshua Ferris, Dave Eggers) had become emasculated. They were “malformed, self-centered boy-writers” – anti-Mailers who shied away from sex and controversy. …

“They think that to be allowed a place at the table, they need to have the right views and be these nice guys. They’re in danger of rendering themselves even less worth reading than they are already.”

… Karolina Sutton, an agent at Curtis Brown, is surprised that men are feeling excluded from fiction. She stresses that it has taken women centuries to find their voice and be confident within publishing: “Why wasn’t there uproar in the media when women were excluded?” she asks.

Women weren’t excluded from publishing novels. Of the top 10 bestselling novels of the year in the US, women wrote between 31% and 41% in the first four decades, before dropping with coming of WWII (which I’m guessing provided men with lots of great material).

 

She insists that there are plenty of successful young male writers, it’s just most of them aren’t writing from the dominant point of view or with the self-assurance that Roth and Amis had in the 80s or 90s. Still, she concedes that the expectations of male debut novelists are greater than they used to be: “For a young man to get a quarter of a million pound advance, the bar is really high. They have to deliver something really spectacular. It’s easier for women to get higher advances.”

You would have to go back 12 years, to debuts by Ross Raisin and Joe Dunthorne, to see big money spent on new male voices. Although Caleb Azumah Nelson’s Open Water, published in February, is said to have received a “significant” advance after a nine-way bidding war, many agents and editors have told me how rare that is. Sutton believes this is because “the cultural moment belongs to women”, whose stories “seem to feel more fresh”.

Are women’s stories really more fresh? My impression is that Jane Austen is by far the biggest selling 19th Century novelist of the 21st Century (unless there’s some 19th Century book that’s always assigned in school the way The Great Gatsby is). The reason Austen speaks so well to women two hundred years later is because their interests don’t really change that much.

But the anonymous male publisher I spoke to feels we should be wary of the argument that men aren’t currently producing “fresh” fiction. “There’s a flip side to that. Are we really going to say that 15 years ago, black women weren’t writing good books?”

Any feminist is likely to feel conflicted about all this. There is clearly a hegemony emerging in the publishing world, one that Lovegrove refers to as “white feminism”, which threatens to make fiction stale and predictable, as well as alienating potential young male readers. It’s both amusing and dismaying that the publishing insiders I speak to all seem to identify their archetypal reader as a 28-year-old white woman who grew up in Buckinghamshire or Oxfordshire.

But I think we should be wary of shaming the women whose enthusiasm, passion and investment keeps the whole industry afloat. And there is also the question of whether for all their visibility, women are yet afforded the same cultural respect as the male novelist. There’s a danger that the novel gets dismissed as a feminised form, especially since the history of the novel, from its 18th-century origins, was rooted in the idea of it as frivolous literature for leisured women who didn’t receive a formal education in science or politics. It was male writers such as Samuel Richardson, as well as a generation of male critics, who were seen to professionalise fiction writing.

The male mind is vastly more obsessed with discerning hierarchies of greatness in the past. The female mind is much more interested in what’s new and in fashion. (Which is one reason why Jane Austen’s hegemony over chick lit is so extraordinary.)

A few thoughts judging from the replies to Joyce Carol Oates:

White women appear to be counted as (dis)honorary white men for the purposes of calculating how white male dominated the publishing industry is. As I pointed out recently during the similar James Patterson brouhaha (and what do Joyce Carol Oates and James Patterson know about the book business?), the great majority of employees of publishing houses are not white men but white women. But the concept that whites <> white men seems hard for many people with literary turns of mind to grasp these days.

The Woke don’t seem all that aware of how sexual reproduction works. For example, I get the impression that they think young white male authors deserve to pay because they are descended from men, while women authors are only descended from women, not from icky men.

Of course, we are all really descended from women and men. (Duh.) In contrast, my impression is that high achieving women are more likely to be products of The Patriarchy than are high achieving men. Women who achieve at a high level in a typically male dominated field tend to have strong fathers in their lives, I suspect. Can anybody think of a database for testing this?

 
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  1. What Joyce said. There are a lot of tiny wrinkles to the issue that can be examined and dissected under a magnifying glass, but what Joyce asserted should be the focus of the discussion–straight white men are the enemy of the woke, the NY publishing world is one of the wokest subcultures in America, and straight white men are being discriminated against in that world because they are icky. What incredible fucking chutzpah it is for these midwits to say, essentially, “We discriminated against men and stacked the deck to give women the upper hand, therefore it only stands to reason that the freshest stories out there are by women–because women are having their moment. Furthermore, womenwomenwomen!”

    • Replies: @Forlorn_Scrivener
    @JimDandy

    "–straight white men are the enemy of the woke, the NY publishing world is one of the wokest subcultures in America, and straight white men are being discriminated against in that world because they are icky."

    The discrimination is not confined to publishing, of course. Just as prevalent is the discrimination through tech. I use a popular free app that allows me to borrow books from my local library and read them (or listen to them) with my phone.

    Yes, the content offered skews massively woke. However, equally insidious is the algorithm used to construct lists of suggested follow-up reading material. Of the nine titles suggested I check out based on borrowing Asimov's I, Robot, 7 are by female authors. And, one of the males is He/They as per his twitter account. All offerings are contemporary.

    This example is representative. My borrowing history is chock-full of classic science fiction: Dick, Asimov, Niven etc. or newer such stuff by Alistair Reynolds, Ian Douglas, or Taylor Anderson. There's plenty of non-fiction (science, history), as well. Whatever means is used to determine titles I should read is obviously not based on personal preference.

    , @Prester John
    @JimDandy

    Slightly OT but: Is it me or has the "woke" crowd become increasingly dominated by women, particularly black and Jewish women, and homosexuals?

    Replies: @JimDandy

  2. The problem is, women dominate the publishing industry now, and they are hostile to male authors and swallow all the gobbledygook of Gaydom and Wokeness, so they prefer women and non-white and gay authors.

    Of course, women just work as publishers and agents, but Jews dominate the publishing industry, since at least the 1930s, but before it was male Jews and they were not so hostile to male heterosexual authors yet.

    • Agree: JimDandy
    • Troll: Guest007
    • Replies: @Henry's Cat
    @Dumbo


    The problem is, women dominate the publishing industry now, and they are hostile to male authors and swallow all the gobbledygook of Gaydom and Wokeness, so they prefer women and non-white and gay authors.
     
    Don't men still dominate when it comes to non-fiction writing?

    Replies: @JimDandy

    , @SFG
    @Dumbo

    Agreed. My hope is enough writers can work outside of traditional publishing to get contrary views out there.

  3. Every book-pushing email I get from Amazon features nothing but female writers. I delete them all. Female writers bore me, for the most part. And I just refuse to participate in this “women good; white men bad” charade. Further, spare me the “gay black” author of any sex–if I never hear another word about homosexuals, I will be a happy camper. And blacks. These people have worn out their welcome with a lot of us.

    I don’t read much “literature” these days–I have too much on my mind to lend neurons to “profundity.” What I want is escape–and I get that mostly from…white, male authors. Thank the Lord for Jack Carr, et al.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @LadyTheo

    Amazon’s daily deals for Kindle, typically 1-day $3 sales, are 90% chick lit, romances and mysteries, very little guy fiction or nonfiction.

    On the other hand, I’ve noticed a lot of self-published or small press male genre fiction, cop/detective/military thrillers. There seems to be an ecosystem of support services like design, copy editing, and ebook formatting that lets independents put out slick product, and the Amazon review infrastructure floats the cream to the top.

    So the publishing industry may be going the same way as the newspaper industry, with a big three remaining and the rest going belly up (NYT, WaPo, WSJ), to be replaced by the publishing versions of blogging and Substack.

    Replies: @White Guy In Japan, @epebble, @James J. O'Meara

    , @Director95
    @LadyTheo

    I am currently on a Philip Kerr binge reading his Bernie Gunther, Berlin cop series. Try Eric Larsen if you like some interesting history blended with a mystery tale.

    I can tell you have you head screwed on correctly, and thereby avoid woke garbage.

    , @Kylie
    @LadyTheo

    Most female writers bore me, too. There are a few exceptions.

    I do like Megan Abbott. She writes crime fiction with female protagonists who vye for power--but not in the usual trite ways of, say, "beach reads". Very idiosyncratic . Liked Dare Me and You Will Know Me enough to buy them after I read them free online.

    Tana French and Denise Mina have each written one crime novel (Broken Harbor and The End of the Wasp Season) that I thought was very good, in both cases about disintegrating families.

    I'm reading Ross Macdonald for escape.

    Were you the one who recommended Symphony for the City of the Dead to me? If so, many thanks, it was very good

  4. White men are in retreat on many fronts. Good luck as a white male trying to get into veterinary school in the USA. Almost 65% of vets are now female, with something like 80% of the vet school population currently female. No accident.

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
    @northeast

    If you're a white male who wants to work with food animals, there's now subtle Affirmative Action for you in a lot of vet schools. Too many girls just want to work with puppies and kitties and horsies, not cows, pigs and chickens.

    Replies: @Guest007, @Diversity Heretic

    , @Guest007
    @northeast

    Women are 80% of pharmacy school, 80% of physical therapist, 90% of nurses. As ed and men has replaced manufacturing as the place for jobs, men have been left behind. What most men need to understand that a career field dominated by women will always have more job openings because women move in and out of the job market more than men.

    If women are doing to be 60% of college graduates and have better GPAs than men, then graduate schools are going to be dominated by women.

    Replies: @JackOH

    , @Sollipsist
    @northeast

    Still, there are still more male veterinarians (60-70%) than there are male veterinary assistants or vet techs (90%+). It's roughly equivalent to the distribution of doctors vs. nurses, and probably for similar reasons.

    During my past 15 years in this field, that ratio hasn't changed much. What HAS changed is that each year it seems that fewer of the newer veterinarians (male or female) are white. I can only assume that this is the result of vet school admissions/ financial aid trends -- vets are in such demand that nobody with a DVM goes without a job unless they choose to, whatever sex or ethnicity they may be.

    Replies: @northeast

    , @Peter Akuleyev
    @northeast

    Interesting. We switched our dog from our younger female vet to an older male vet a few years ago. Great move. The woman was nice but too emotionally invested and would sometimes flake out and leave work. The male vet is empathetic but seems to be driven more by curiosity- what dosage works best, is this medication really effective, etc. Keeps a level head. Basically the stereotypes hold true.

  5. Anonymous[183] • Disclaimer says: • Website

    Men have so many more exciting forms of entertainment these days that there isn’t much demand for non-girly literature. What demand exists is satisfied by the huge corpus of old stuff. I went to an elite college not that long ago, and I rarely saw male students reading for pleasure, and it was rarely if ever new novels when I did.
    Nonfiction and classics, sure.

    But, culture can change. And if the publishing industry really does shut out young (white, straight) male talent, resigned grumbling at parties and giving anonymous interviews isn’t going to change that. People in the industry who care have to stick their necks out and advocate for specific new male authors.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    @Anonymous


    Men have so many more exciting forms of entertainment these days that there isn’t much demand for non-girly literature.
     
    A great book is the peak form of entertainment if you can read. It’s multiple hours of being fully engrossed in a story. When I read Crichton’s Jurassic Park, I put it down a single time to use the bathroom. Years later, I saw the movie, and while I was impressed by the technical achievement of it, it didn’t compare to the experience of reading the book.

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob

    , @Henry's Cat
    @Anonymous


    Men have so many more exciting forms of entertainment these days that there isn’t much demand for non-girly literature. What demand exists is satisfied by the huge corpus of old stuff.
     
    Indeed. Articles on the the music industry constantly bemoan the difficulty new artists have breaking into the big time when there's such an incredible store of old music at everyone's fingertips. What's needed - and is sorely lacking from articles like the above - is some hard data on who's buying (or freely downloading) what books, and the size of market for new fiction compared to the classics.
    , @Tex
    @Anonymous


    What demand exists is satisfied by the huge corpus of old stuff.
     
    I can't speak for others, but in my circle of friends we tend to be voracious readers. I can't remember a single instance of anyone gushing over the new hotness from the NY publishers.

    My reading list is composed entirely of genre fiction, often in cheap e-book format, but with a fair amount gathered from used book stores. Why would I look for some woke chick-lit when I still haven't read The Killer Angels? I picked up a pile of '60s-era Tarzan paperbacks and enjoy them immensely. I have Willeford's Cockfighter on my list for a re-read. I have works by Barrington Bayley, A Merritt, Alan LeMay, and Gustav Meyrink waiting their turn. I haven't yet read Oakley Hall's Warlock, or Run Silent, Run Deep. The back-list is endless.

    I read a lot of non-fiction, which I think is typical of guys. There are new works regularly published about WWII, the Civil War, gangsters & lawmen, adventurers, explorers, and other guyish topics.

    Replies: @Nick Granite, @SunBakedSuburb

  6. “I was having a meeting the other day with yet another 28-year-old woman,” he continues.

    Now that’s funny. (YA28YOW)

    Feminism made a bunch of claims back in the day. (I’m talking about 1970, not 1919.)

    One of the things the internet has provided is “a voice for women”. This past decade, we’ve all been given the opportunity to observe the passion, intelligence, good humor, empiricism, sharp reasoning, and deep insight that women bring to our national conversation.

    • Thanks: JimDandy
    • LOL: Bardon Kaldian, bomag
    • Replies: @Abe
    @AnotherDad


    One of the things the internet has provided is “a voice for women”. This past decade, we’ve all been given the opportunity to observe the passion, intelligence, good humor, empiricism, sharp reasoning, and deep insight that women bring to our national conversation.

     

    We now live in a girl boss/tattler universe where the civil norms of the most powerful nation on earth are defined by a courthouse in Salem in 1619- or the most b!tchy sort of high school social backstacking young adult fiction.

    Only a week or so ago the supreme legislature of this land was entranced by the testimony of a certain Ms. Cassidy Hutchinson, who- like- heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend that Trump totally spazzed out in front of the Secret Service. When direct witnesses of the supposed spazz-out failed to confirm her story, it is the Secret Service that must now be investigated, with I’m sure lots of people eventually going to jail on Trump’d-up contempt & perjury procedural crimes.

    This week 2 members of The Squad were arrested at an anti-anti-abortion protest and- when the hoped-for mediagenic police brutality did not materialize- they marched themselves in front of the cameras anyway with pretend handcuffs pinioning their arms behind their backs. AOC earlier this year said she was almost kidnapped and raped by Jan 6. Proud Boys- OK, that did not literally happen but she FEARED she would be kidnapped and raped, a totally unfalsifiable assertion.

    What else happened recently? Oh yeah, the totally non-plant, non-fabricated FACEBOOK ‘whistleblower’ Frances Haugen-Manjaw (with 60 MINUTES INTERVIEW, Congressional star witness turn instantaneously lined up the minute she came forth). Then there was that [email protected] Tracy Flick preventing the undoing of Old Girl Tracy Flick’s 2nd boner- the dynamiting of the German nuclear fleet (hope visions of rainbow-colored unicorn farts heating their homes REAL SOON NOW help tide the Deutsch over this winter) and, of course, the mother of all recent girl boss concoctions- the dead serious demand that the 2016 Presidential Election be decided on the basis of mean ol’ Donnie calling my best friend’s best friend fat.

    No wonder Putin keeps rolling us.

    Replies: @Jacobite2

  7. Sutton believes this is because “the cultural moment belongs to women”, whose stories “seem to feel more fresh”.

    But of course. And shall we give them TV too? Since it’s about 90% female-oriented as well?

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldlan
    @HammerJack

    The future is female!😉
    You see,the world has changed,and the skills men provide are not needed anymore. Its the " soft skills" of (white) women that are in demand!😇 We need to fight racism and sexism and then we will all be free or something.😮

    Replies: @HammerJack

  8. Who controls the publishing industry?

    Answer this question.

    • Replies: @JimDandy
    @JohnnyWalker123

    Jews. Oh, wait, you weren't talking to me, were you?

    Replies: @Cagey Beast

    , @J.Ross
    @JohnnyWalker123

    Literally the Gary Shandling Show answer.

    , @kaganovitch
    @JohnnyWalker123

    Who controls the publishing industry? Answer this question.

    But that's been true for the better part of a century with very different results.

    Replies: @Peter D. Bredon

  9. The Woke don’t seem all that aware of how sexual reproduction works. For example, I get the impression that they think young white male authors deserve to pay because they are descended from men, while women authors are only descended from women, not from icky men.

    The Woke are notorious for not wanting to be bothered with the details, particularly when the details (i.e. facts) conflict with they feelz.

    This is why they’re capable of believing so many ridiculous things, and (not unrelated) why they’re particularly susceptible to mass-media propaganda.

    • Agree: Kylie, Hangnail Hans, Forbes
    • Replies: @ADL Pyramid of Hate
    @HammerJack

    If by "The Woke," you mean women and feminized men, I concur.

    Excuse me, I mean: "I don't like how your contention makes me FEEL, so it's not true."

    , @Gordo
    @HammerJack

    https://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/4/26/1366993843493/Florence-Nightingale-pict-005.jpg

    A woman who earned her place on a banknote.

    Replies: @Rob McX

  10. Anon[230] • Disclaimer says:

    Nobody shoule care. As the article notes, very few white men are attracted to fiction writing. This isn’t an industry the average white male is interested in, and those who are will probably be coming from privileged upper middle class backgrounds anyway — not the kind of person who has to worry about a career path. Assuming this is true, anyway, and not the anecdotal blabbering of a middle aged white woman.

    Call me when white men are being discriminated against when applying for the types of jobs they love to do, like police officer, meterologist, politician, lawyer, mechanic, ag teacher, scout sniper, hot air balloon tour guide, circus owner, solar energy, wind turbine repair man, cameraman, small aircraft pilot, amateur porn producer, knifemaker, gun salesman, etc.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Anon


    very few white men are attracted to fiction writing ... and those who are will probably be coming from privileged upper middle class backgrounds
     
    There used to be a very strong tradition of white men from lower or lower-middle-class backgrounds writing serious novels and short stories -- James T. Farrell, John Fante, John Steinbeck, Henry Miller, Charles Bukowski...and then all those guys who wrote for the pulps and popular press -- hard-boiled detective stories, science fiction, westerns: men like Max Brand, Jack Williamson, Mickey Spillane. There were so many.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Anon, @James J. O'Meara, @James J. O'Meara

    , @Thoughts
    @Anon

    This comment is so dumb it's astounding

    The best male writers tend to come from Uber-Male Careers

    Raymond Chandler was an Oil Exec before writing his books

    So let's say one of your Non-Discriminated Against White Men is a Sheriff or top Homicide Detective

    Should he not get his books published?

    How about a Male Doctor in the vein of Tess Gerritsen?

    What about an Engineer?

    How about a male Psychologist?

    These are all upper middle class

    The truth is, men write better books. I like Tess Gerritsen...Heck I like Charlene Harris, but Raymond Chandler, Ian Flemming and Tom Wolfe are Divine

    Women authors are Just Women authors--largely enjoyable tripe to pass a Sunday afternoon...and women can suppress this truth all they want and lie to themselves, but eventually even a woman wants to read a d**mn fine book and they ain't going to be reaching for a woman author

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @astrolabe, @Anon, @gepay

    , @NOTA
    @Anon

    Compare fiction writing with programming. I am fine with either:

    a. We accept the gender imbalance and don't worry about it

    b. We see the gender imbalance as evidence of discrimination and worry about it

    I just want the same approach to apply regardless of the direction of the imbalance.

    Replies: @SFG, @Bardon Kaldian

    , @Anonymous
    @Anon

    I have zero interest in any of those things, except to write about them.
    Stop discriminating against white males.

    , @Mr. Anon
    @Anon

    It matters who speaks for a culture. A culture without the voices of white men is going to be...........well, a lot like the culture we have today. It is because white men are retreating from jobs that define the culture, or being forced out of them, that it is possible to marginalize all of them, including your mechanic, gun salesman, or wind turbine repairman.

    Replies: @Anon

    , @throtler
    @Anon

    White men can use female names to get published, just like the Bronte sisters had to use male names back in the day. Problem solved.

  11. Over the past 12 months, almost all of the buzz in fiction has been around young women: Patricia Lockwood, Yaa Gyasi, Raven Leilani, Avni Doshi, Lauren Oyler.

    ?

    • Agree: Old Prude
    • LOL: Abe
  12. “I was having a meeting the other day with yet another 28-year-old woman,” he continues. “I always ask editors, ‘What are you looking for’, and she happened to say, ‘What I really want is a generational family drama’. I said, ‘Oh, like The Corrections by Jonathan Franzen?’ and honestly, you would think I’d said Mein Kampf. She said, ‘No! Nothing like that!’. And I thought, ‘But that’s literally what you’ve described!’”

    Has there ever been a profession that became better when dominated by women? Maybe nursing, but a woman kind of invented it.

    The Corrections by Jonathan Franzen is probably better than anything a woman has written this century. Franzen’s ambition in writing it was to write a literary novel that was also a page-turner, and he succeeded.

    Franzen’s subsequent novel, Freedom, might be the best American novel to describe the aughts. A lot of the hatred toward him is purely envy.

    An example of the female-dominated publishing industry’s failure: a writer named Kristen Roupenian got her short story called “Cat Person” published in the New Yorker a few years ago. It was a pretty good story, about a college girl’s brief relationship with an older, socially and sexually awkward man (he takes the girl to a Holocaust movie on their first date), and it resonated with women and went viral. As a result of that, Roupenian got a 7-figure advance for writing a book of short stories, which got outsold by the self-published psuedonymous author “Delicious Tacos”.

    I haven’t bought any of Tacos’ books, because I think I’d find them too depressing, but some of the stories of his I’ve read have been great. One example is Autopilot, which starts with a similar premise as the Ben Stiller prestige TV show “Severance”, but is much pithier and funnier.

    • Thanks: JimDandy, Not Raul
    • Replies: @JimDandy
    @Dave Pinsen

    Roupenian got a 7-figure advance for writing a book of short stories, which got outsold by the self-published psuedonymous author “Delicious Tacos”.


    Thanks for this excellent example that exposes the weaknesses of the reductive position that "men aren't interested in literary fiction because _____." That blank is typically filled with every imaginable reason OTHER THAN: "because almost no contemporary fiction is being published that would interest any normal man in his right fucking mind." Along with Delicious Tacos, another good example is Mike Ma, who makes a living off of his self-published sort-of-alt-right novels. A very good apolitical author by the name of Sam Pink developed a strong following and critical acclaim writing his tales of a modern urban straight white boy on tiny presses, only to have his style ripped off wholesale by a half-Asian guy who got a big publishing deal for "Fuccboi". The faux-"problematic" nature of "Fuccboi's" subject matter was trumped by the author's desirability as a literary POC. There is a market for literary fiction by and about straight white men, but the NY publishing world has zero interest in serving it. Period. Literary fiction addresses the big problems that individuals face in their society, and the big problems straight white men are currently facing are epitomized by the kinds of people who control publishing.

    , @Almost Missouri
    @Dave Pinsen


    some of the stories of his I’ve read have been great. One example is Autopilot, which starts with a similar premise as the Ben Stiller prestige TV show “Severance”, but is much pithier and funnier.
     
    Okay, I laughed (reading DT's story not your comment). But, I pretty much knew where it was going once the pharma angle was explained, maybe because I'd read basically the same story in 1970s underground comics (#ThingsMyParentsShouldHaveKeptAwayFromMe).

    I'd never heard of Severance, but if both Great White Hope Delicious Tacos's and Jewish Establishmentarianist Ben Stiller's big achievements are rewrites of 50-year-old comix tropes, well, maybe there's a reason that serious readers haven't bothered with anything much written since 1950. Okay, maybe that French guy...

    Replies: @Meretricious

    , @martin_2
    @Dave Pinsen


    he takes the girl to a Holocaust movie on their first date
     
    That's nothing. I took a girl to a cemetary on our first date.

    Replies: @Kylie, @SFG, @JimDandy, @Jim Don Bob, @kaganovitch, @tyrone, @peterike, @Right_On

    , @Rodger Dodger
    @Dave Pinsen


    One example is Autopilot, which starts with a similar premise as the Ben Stiller prestige TV show “Severance”, but is much pithier and funnier.
     
    "Ben Stiller" and "prestige" are not words that I would typically use together in the same sentence. But to be fair that's based on his acting work, which is...not my cup of tea.
    , @Jack D
    @Dave Pinsen

    I read about half of Cat Person and I grew too bored to read any further. A guy picks up a 20 year old (the protagonist though told in the 3rd person) who works at the concession stand of a movie theater. He is a bit older and he takes her on their first date to see a serious movie about the Holocaust. Even though she is supposed to be an intellectually serious person, she deems this inappropriate - he should have taken her to a rom-com for their first date. He in turn deems her outfit (leggings and a sweatshirt) in appropriate. Then he tries to take her to a bar but she gets carded so she begins to sob (surely the sign of a stable person). He then takes her to another bar. She doesn't know what grownups order at bars (usually her friends with fake ID order pitchers of PBR) so she says "a beer."

    At that point I grew bored and stopped reading. I really could care less what happened to these two characters. What utter drivel. So I skipped to the end. SPOILER ALERT


    She stops dating the guy and then he stalks her and harasses by text message and calls her a whore. The end. I have just saved you a half hour of your life that you will never get back.

    Is there ANY male author that would write such drivel? Any (non-gay) man who would be interested in reading this?

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen, @Ghddghh, @AnotherDad

    , @JimDandy
    @Dave Pinsen

    "Cat Person" was a good story primarily because it was an honest, warts-and-all look into the modern young woman's brain (and other organs)--but that ending basically negated all its virtues. So forced and polemically-pat in contrast to everything leading up to it that I suspect she was essentially forced to insert it in place of some other ending.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen, @Jack D

    , @James J. O'Meara
    @Dave Pinsen

    Delicious Tacos
    Finally, Some Good News
    Amazon Kindle, 2018

    I don’t know what Charles Bukowski would think of a writer calling himself “Delicious Tacos,” but I think he would approve of the writing itself; I certainly do, and you definitely should expose yourself (the metaphor is creepily appropriate on many levels) to the work of an author who describes himself as “no more significant than an insect. Author of the novel Finally, Some Good News, and the collections Savage Spear of the Unicorn, The Pussy and Hot Naked Tits.”

    https://counter-currents.com/2020/06/the-turn-of-the-screwed/

    Replies: @SFG

  13. @JohnnyWalker123
    Who controls the publishing industry?

    Answer this question.

    Replies: @JimDandy, @J.Ross, @kaganovitch

    Jews. Oh, wait, you weren’t talking to me, were you?

    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    @JimDandy

    Blaming Anglo-American feminism on Jews has to be one of the weakest arguments out there. Feminism is something we cooked up ourselves or at least our Dissenter neighbours did:

    Seneca Falls Convention
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seneca_Falls_Convention

    People should have a look at that Wikipedia entry and follow the links to get a sense of how deeply the roots of wokeness go. Continental Europe has its republican and anti-clerical strains of liberalism and progressivism but modern feminism is our baby.

    The Ellis Island Jews took Yankee feminism, republicanism, anti-Europeanism and the worship of Blacks to new heights but they didn't invent them.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @JimDandy, @AnotherDad, @Hibernian

  14. Young white male Christian Authors …not Jews. A supercial canvass of the new book section of my public library where you first walk in: Sympathetic Bio of George Floyd…..Bio of Hillary Clinton…2 hate books against Trump…couple books about LGBTQ stuff, one on all the bad things we did to the Indians…another how great Israel is….another extolling the virtues of Stacy Abrahams. Another pro abortion. The fiction books ….mostly NYC Jewish…80% female.

    • Replies: @AnotherDad
    @Jimmy1969


    Sympathetic Bio of George Floyd….
     
    Well in fairness, that one would take some "work".
    , @Unintended Consequence
    @Jimmy1969

    If the pompous, dimwitted, obstreperous, narcissist-to-the-point-of-implosion Trump manages to get reelected, I'll be cranking out Trump hate-stories as fast as I can type.

  15. @Dumbo
    The problem is, women dominate the publishing industry now, and they are hostile to male authors and swallow all the gobbledygook of Gaydom and Wokeness, so they prefer women and non-white and gay authors.

    Of course, women just work as publishers and agents, but Jews dominate the publishing industry, since at least the 1930s, but before it was male Jews and they were not so hostile to male heterosexual authors yet.

    Replies: @Henry's Cat, @SFG

    The problem is, women dominate the publishing industry now, and they are hostile to male authors and swallow all the gobbledygook of Gaydom and Wokeness, so they prefer women and non-white and gay authors.

    Don’t men still dominate when it comes to non-fiction writing?

    • Replies: @JimDandy
    @Henry's Cat

    Depends on what you mean by non-fiction. BTW, I'm looking forward to Portia Odufuwa's memoir.

  16. Aeons ago, I exchanged opinions with Jared Taylor at the AmRen site.

    He said that the only novelists worth reading were those dead at least 50 years.

    I had a different opinion.

    So- we settled for 30 years.

    • Replies: @appianglorius
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Tom Wolfe, anyone? Dead 2018...

    , @Gordo
    @Bardon Kaldian


    Aeons ago, I exchanged opinions with Jared Taylor at the AmRen site.

    He said that the only novelists worth reading were those dead at least 50 years.

    I had a different opinion.

    So- we settled for 30
     
    Problem is those books will become unavailable.

    Replies: @Tex

  17. @Anonymous
    Men have so many more exciting forms of entertainment these days that there isn't much demand for non-girly literature. What demand exists is satisfied by the huge corpus of old stuff. I went to an elite college not that long ago, and I rarely saw male students reading for pleasure, and it was rarely if ever new novels when I did.
    Nonfiction and classics, sure.

    But, culture can change. And if the publishing industry really does shut out young (white, straight) male talent, resigned grumbling at parties and giving anonymous interviews isn't going to change that. People in the industry who care have to stick their necks out and advocate for specific new male authors.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen, @Henry's Cat, @Tex

    Men have so many more exciting forms of entertainment these days that there isn’t much demand for non-girly literature.

    A great book is the peak form of entertainment if you can read. It’s multiple hours of being fully engrossed in a story. When I read Crichton’s Jurassic Park, I put it down a single time to use the bathroom. Years later, I saw the movie, and while I was impressed by the technical achievement of it, it didn’t compare to the experience of reading the book.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    @Dave Pinsen

    I read Tom Clancy's Red Storm Rising in a complete sitting.

  18. @Anonymous
    Men have so many more exciting forms of entertainment these days that there isn't much demand for non-girly literature. What demand exists is satisfied by the huge corpus of old stuff. I went to an elite college not that long ago, and I rarely saw male students reading for pleasure, and it was rarely if ever new novels when I did.
    Nonfiction and classics, sure.

    But, culture can change. And if the publishing industry really does shut out young (white, straight) male talent, resigned grumbling at parties and giving anonymous interviews isn't going to change that. People in the industry who care have to stick their necks out and advocate for specific new male authors.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen, @Henry's Cat, @Tex

    Men have so many more exciting forms of entertainment these days that there isn’t much demand for non-girly literature. What demand exists is satisfied by the huge corpus of old stuff.

    Indeed. Articles on the the music industry constantly bemoan the difficulty new artists have breaking into the big time when there’s such an incredible store of old music at everyone’s fingertips. What’s needed – and is sorely lacking from articles like the above – is some hard data on who’s buying (or freely downloading) what books, and the size of market for new fiction compared to the classics.

  19. One big difference is that serious male fiction readers, with very few exceptions, are not too much interested in other races & cultures. I’ve seen this before.
    White male readers don’t care for fictions authored by blacks, Muslims, Hindus, other Asians… of course, with exceptions.

    They find “global Western world”, from Latin America to Russia, to be interesting.

    On the other hand, female readers (especially the Book Club types) follow the fashion of peeking into lives of Africans,Muslims, Hindus …

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    @Bardon Kaldian

    One big difference is that serious male fiction readers, with very few exceptions, are not too much interested in other races & cultures.

    Doesn't Kipling's enduring popularity argue against that, somewhat? While his point of view is , of course, Western, his appeal comes from that peek into the exotic, no?

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @PiltdownMan

  20. Anonymous[387] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon
    Nobody shoule care. As the article notes, very few white men are attracted to fiction writing. This isn't an industry the average white male is interested in, and those who are will probably be coming from privileged upper middle class backgrounds anyway -- not the kind of person who has to worry about a career path. Assuming this is true, anyway, and not the anecdotal blabbering of a middle aged white woman.

    Call me when white men are being discriminated against when applying for the types of jobs they love to do, like police officer, meterologist, politician, lawyer, mechanic, ag teacher, scout sniper, hot air balloon tour guide, circus owner, solar energy, wind turbine repair man, cameraman, small aircraft pilot, amateur porn producer, knifemaker, gun salesman, etc.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Thoughts, @NOTA, @Anonymous, @Mr. Anon, @throtler

    very few white men are attracted to fiction writing … and those who are will probably be coming from privileged upper middle class backgrounds

    There used to be a very strong tradition of white men from lower or lower-middle-class backgrounds writing serious novels and short stories — James T. Farrell, John Fante, John Steinbeck, Henry Miller, Charles Bukowski…and then all those guys who wrote for the pulps and popular press — hard-boiled detective stories, science fiction, westerns: men like Max Brand, Jack Williamson, Mickey Spillane. There were so many.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Anonymous

    I'm a little vague on which of these now famous novelists were considered literary writers during their own time. Hammett, Chandler, and Cain are now major figures in American letters, but at the time they were considered more as successful pulp writers who happened to inspire classic movies. Fitzgerald was a huge celebrity in the 1920s, but was he considered a literary writer at the time?

    My impression is Hemingway was considered an important literary innovator from the late 1920s onward. Hemingway's connection to high art modernist types in Paris like Ezra Pound and Gertrude Stein assured that from the beginning he wasn't considered a pulp writer, even though the ease with which he could be read and his manly subject matter might otherwise suggest he was. The young Evelyn Waugh, a very self-consciously elitist modernist, always saw Hemingway as the giant who once and for all killed the ornate Victorian prose style that Waugh despised.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Mark G., @JimDandy, @mousey, @Chriscom, @njguy73, @Anon

    , @Anon
    @Anonymous

    Awesome, like 10 people. Let's say there were a hundred. Over a 100 year period. In a white male population of tens of millions. You see where I'm going with this? Not relevant to white male career paths (or any oter group's, really).

    Again call me when the real-world macrocosm of employment is discriminating against white men. The macrocosm is what matters, not the microcosm.

    , @James J. O'Meara
    @Anonymous

    Your point is valid, but as for

    "all those guys who wrote for the pulps and popular press — hard-boiled detective stories, science fiction, westerns"

    Surely the greatest "pulp" authors, outside of Chandler's detective fiction, are Robert E. Howard and HP Lovecraft, who would hardly be considered typical males (Lovecraft essentially never held a job, Howard lived with his mother and shot himself when she died). HPL was kinda one note but Howard, apart from Conan, also excelled in Westerns and detective stories. There's something to be said for fantasy being as important as experience.

    For example, James Gould Cozzens' books are all based in some profession: lawyer, Episcopal priest, Air Force base, etc. -- and are studies of those worlds and how men (largely) interact in such organizations. Hell, even Gore Vidal's first book was based on his WWII service.

    Your point though is basically sound. Just as men in general used to be expected to be able to DO things -- fix a car, rather than call AAA, build a bookshelf rather than go to IKEA -- fiction writers used to be expected to come out of some kind of practical way of life, including military service.

    I think it was in the 50s-- around the time shabbos goy Dwight MacDonald attacked Cozzens in Commentary -- that the idea of an unemployed or unemployable bum, or a graduate student, because the model for a writer and hence the model for what to write about: academia, being "on the road," etc.

    The fingerprints of a certain Tribe seem to be all over this sea change.

    , @James J. O'Meara
    @Anonymous

    Evola, of all people, devotes a whole chapter of Ride the Tiger to disparaging "subjective" literature, such as Proust, Joyce, Kafka, etc., where the emphasis is on "style" and the study of the author's precious inner world. He gives the Beats credit for at least doing something. He likes Henry Miller even, and probably would have liked Bukowski.

    Writing like this has long since become the standard for "literature" and anything else -- perhaps "realism" might be the term -- is infra dig or lowbrow. For this mentality, Farrell, Steinbeck et. al. arer really no better than Spillane (a great, though limited writer, in my book) or other "pulp" or "men's" writers. (The earlier "realists" like Farrell or Steinbeck or O'Hara are grandfathered in).

    Many of the "modernists" the Right enjoys are no different than Proust etc.: Pound and Eliot for example., but also Junger (Pound's unreadable Modernist writing is the only reason They haven't cancelled him). By contrast, a two-fisted ex-soldier like Wyndham Lewis (as was Evola and Junger) is largely ignored by both the Right and the academy.

    Replies: @Peter Akuleyev

  21. @northeast
    White men are in retreat on many fronts. Good luck as a white male trying to get into veterinary school in the USA. Almost 65% of vets are now female, with something like 80% of the vet school population currently female. No accident.

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @Guest007, @Sollipsist, @Peter Akuleyev

    If you’re a white male who wants to work with food animals, there’s now subtle Affirmative Action for you in a lot of vet schools. Too many girls just want to work with puppies and kitties and horsies, not cows, pigs and chickens.

    • Replies: @Guest007
    @Redneck farmer

    Most female vets do not want to be large animal vets. They want to be small animal vets with better working hours. What is interesting is the creation of chain vet hospitals along the lines of urgent medical clinics. Those clinics will be staffed by women vets trying to pay off their debts.

    Replies: @Vladimir Berkov

    , @Diversity Heretic
    @Redneck farmer

    I can't imagine very many women having an interest in being a livestock veterinatian. It involves some degree of danger; cattle and hogs are and can move surprisingly fast. It also requires some degree of physical strength and the willingness to go into barns and livestock pens and to respond to calls at unusual hours. Some women may want to do this, but I think that men would be better at it and more interested. If I had a son with talent in the life sciences, I'd counsel vet school over med school.

  22. Anon[925] • Disclaimer says:
    @LadyTheo
    Every book-pushing email I get from Amazon features nothing but female writers. I delete them all. Female writers bore me, for the most part. And I just refuse to participate in this "women good; white men bad" charade. Further, spare me the "gay black" author of any sex--if I never hear another word about homosexuals, I will be a happy camper. And blacks. These people have worn out their welcome with a lot of us.

    I don't read much "literature" these days--I have too much on my mind to lend neurons to "profundity." What I want is escape--and I get that mostly from...white, male authors. Thank the Lord for Jack Carr, et al.

    Replies: @Anon, @Director95, @Kylie

    Amazon’s daily deals for Kindle, typically 1-day \$3 sales, are 90% chick lit, romances and mysteries, very little guy fiction or nonfiction.

    On the other hand, I’ve noticed a lot of self-published or small press male genre fiction, cop/detective/military thrillers. There seems to be an ecosystem of support services like design, copy editing, and ebook formatting that lets independents put out slick product, and the Amazon review infrastructure floats the cream to the top.

    So the publishing industry may be going the same way as the newspaper industry, with a big three remaining and the rest going belly up (NYT, WaPo, WSJ), to be replaced by the publishing versions of blogging and Substack.

    • Agree: Abe
    • Replies: @White Guy In Japan
    @Anon

    "On the other hand, I’ve noticed a lot of self-published or small press male genre fiction, cop/detective/military thrillers. There seems to be an ecosystem of support services like design, copy editing, and ebook formatting that lets independents put out slick product, and the Amazon review infrastructure floats the cream to the top."

    Thanks to Kindle, I have seen some nice male-driven sub-genres emerge. Specifically, I dig the Asian Noir novels. Written by white men living in Asia (mainly SE), the novels remind me of older detective fiction a la Raymond Chandler. Dead hookers, crooked cops and lots of lost white souls wandering around Thailand.

    Fun bedtime reading!

    Replies: @Erik Sieven, @Rich, @Guest87

    , @epebble
    @Anon

    With Social networking providing some sort of meritocracy for creative talent, I think it is difficult for a truly talented writer to be blockaded for political reasons in an era of self and independent publishers.

    For those who may want to avoid the politics of all, an easy escape is to wait till a book becomes successful and then read it. For example, you can consult a list like:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_books

    for your next reading material.

    Some recent entries in the list:

    Gone Girl by Gillian Flynn
    The Fault in Our Stars by John Green
    The Girl on the Train by Paula Hawkins
    Me Before You by Jojo Moyes
    Fifty Shades Darker by E. L. James
    All the Light We Cannot See by Anthony Doerr
    The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck by Mark Manson
    Becoming by Michelle Obama
    Where the Crawdads Sing by Delia Owens

    , @James J. O'Meara
    @Anon


    I’ve noticed a lot of self-published or small press male genre fiction, cop/detective/military thrillers.
     
    I believe the Critical Drinker, who reviews movies on YT from an anti-woke perspective (and sounds like a drunken Millennial Woes) has a series of such books.
  23. @Dave Pinsen

    “I was having a meeting the other day with yet another 28-year-old woman,” he continues. “I always ask editors, ‘What are you looking for’, and she happened to say, ‘What I really want is a generational family drama’. I said, ‘Oh, like The Corrections by Jonathan Franzen?’ and honestly, you would think I’d said Mein Kampf. She said, ‘No! Nothing like that!’. And I thought, ‘But that’s literally what you’ve described!’”
     
    Has there ever been a profession that became better when dominated by women? Maybe nursing, but a woman kind of invented it.

    The Corrections by Jonathan Franzen is probably better than anything a woman has written this century. Franzen's ambition in writing it was to write a literary novel that was also a page-turner, and he succeeded.

    Franzen's subsequent novel, Freedom, might be the best American novel to describe the aughts. A lot of the hatred toward him is purely envy.

    An example of the female-dominated publishing industry's failure: a writer named Kristen Roupenian got her short story called "Cat Person" published in the New Yorker a few years ago. It was a pretty good story, about a college girl's brief relationship with an older, socially and sexually awkward man (he takes the girl to a Holocaust movie on their first date), and it resonated with women and went viral. As a result of that, Roupenian got a 7-figure advance for writing a book of short stories, which got outsold by the self-published psuedonymous author "Delicious Tacos".

    I haven't bought any of Tacos' books, because I think I'd find them too depressing, but some of the stories of his I've read have been great. One example is Autopilot, which starts with a similar premise as the Ben Stiller prestige TV show "Severance", but is much pithier and funnier.

    Replies: @JimDandy, @Almost Missouri, @martin_2, @Rodger Dodger, @Jack D, @JimDandy, @James J. O'Meara

    Roupenian got a 7-figure advance for writing a book of short stories, which got outsold by the self-published psuedonymous author “Delicious Tacos”.

    Thanks for this excellent example that exposes the weaknesses of the reductive position that “men aren’t interested in literary fiction because _____.” That blank is typically filled with every imaginable reason OTHER THAN: “because almost no contemporary fiction is being published that would interest any normal man in his right fucking mind.” Along with Delicious Tacos, another good example is Mike Ma, who makes a living off of his self-published sort-of-alt-right novels. A very good apolitical author by the name of Sam Pink developed a strong following and critical acclaim writing his tales of a modern urban straight white boy on tiny presses, only to have his style ripped off wholesale by a half-Asian guy who got a big publishing deal for “Fuccboi”. The faux-“problematic” nature of “Fuccboi’s” subject matter was trumped by the author’s desirability as a literary POC. There is a market for literary fiction by and about straight white men, but the NY publishing world has zero interest in serving it. Period. Literary fiction addresses the big problems that individuals face in their society, and the big problems straight white men are currently facing are epitomized by the kinds of people who control publishing.

  24. @Anonymous
    @Anon


    very few white men are attracted to fiction writing ... and those who are will probably be coming from privileged upper middle class backgrounds
     
    There used to be a very strong tradition of white men from lower or lower-middle-class backgrounds writing serious novels and short stories -- James T. Farrell, John Fante, John Steinbeck, Henry Miller, Charles Bukowski...and then all those guys who wrote for the pulps and popular press -- hard-boiled detective stories, science fiction, westerns: men like Max Brand, Jack Williamson, Mickey Spillane. There were so many.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Anon, @James J. O'Meara, @James J. O'Meara

    I’m a little vague on which of these now famous novelists were considered literary writers during their own time. Hammett, Chandler, and Cain are now major figures in American letters, but at the time they were considered more as successful pulp writers who happened to inspire classic movies. Fitzgerald was a huge celebrity in the 1920s, but was he considered a literary writer at the time?

    My impression is Hemingway was considered an important literary innovator from the late 1920s onward. Hemingway’s connection to high art modernist types in Paris like Ezra Pound and Gertrude Stein assured that from the beginning he wasn’t considered a pulp writer, even though the ease with which he could be read and his manly subject matter might otherwise suggest he was. The young Evelyn Waugh, a very self-consciously elitist modernist, always saw Hemingway as the giant who once and for all killed the ornate Victorian prose style that Waugh despised.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @Steve Sailer

    Patricia Lockwood


    No One Is Talking About This is the debut novel by American poet Patricia Lockwood, published in 2021. It was a finalist for the 2021 Booker Prize, was one of the New York Times' 10 best books of 2021, and won the 2022 Dylan Thomas Prize.

    The novel focuses on a woman who is always online.
     
    Yaa Gyasi

    Homegoing is the debut historical fiction novel by Ghanaian-American author Yaa Gyasi, published in 2016. Each chapter in the novel follows a different descendant of an Asante woman named Maame, starting with her two daughters, who are half-sisters, separated by circumstance: Effia marries James Collins, the British governor in charge of Cape Coast Castle, while her half-sister Esi is held captive in the dungeons below. Subsequent chapters follow their children and following generations.
     
    Raven Leilani

    Luster is a 2020 debut novel by Raven Leilani. It follows a Black woman in her twenties who gets involved with a fortysomething white man in an open marriage.
     
    Avni Doshi

    Girl in White Cotton is the debut novel by Avni Doshi, an American writer of Indian origin. Doshi wrote the novel over the course of seven years. It tells the story of a troubled mother-daughter relationship in Pune, India.
     
    Lauren Oyler

    Fake Accounts is the 2021 debut novel by American author and critic Lauren Oyler. It was published on February 2, 2021, by Catapult, and on February 4, 2021, by Fourth Estate.

    The novel follows a young woman who discovers that her boyfriend is behind a popular Instagram account which promotes conspiracy theories.

     

    This must be some kind of joke ....

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Cagey Beast, @Gordo

    , @Mark G.
    @Steve Sailer


    I’m a little vague on which of these now famous novelists were considered literary writers during their own time. Hammett, Chandler, and Cain are now major figures in American letters, but at the time they were considered more as successful pulp writers who happened to inspire classic movies.
     
    I have a book called The World's Best Books from 1953 listing the three thousand best books of all time. Not one of those three authors is included. Those pulp writers weren't taken seriously then but they are still bought and read seventy years later where a lot of the authors that were considered important then are now almost completely forgotten. Some of them were already becoming forgotten before they even died. For example, Joseph Hergesheimer had four books listed in my book on the three thousand best books ever written but was lamenting to Mencken late in his life that no one read him anymore. The Big Sleep by Chandler has 3576 reviews at Amazon and is in the top 23 thousand in book sales while Java Head by Hergesheimer has 13 reviews and isn't even in the top nine million in sales.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Bardon Kaldian, @SunBakedSuburb

    , @JimDandy
    @Steve Sailer

    "Fitzgerald was a huge celebrity in the 1920s, but was he considered a literary writer at the time?"


    Yes, he was considered literary, if not a groundbreaking Modernist artist or whatever. Mencken called his first book the best of that year. Willa Cather, T. S. Eliot, and Edith Wharton had high praise for Gatsby when it came out. Gatsby was a commercial flop.

    Replies: @Peter D. Bredon

    , @mousey
    @Steve Sailer

    Then there is the more recent ones.

    Neal Stephenson
    George R. R. Martin
    David Gunn
    Jack Campbell

    , @Chriscom
    @Steve Sailer

    I read a lot of Hemingway and Fitzgerald in my youth and so became a big fan of famed Scribner's editor Maxwell Perkins, who among other things was editor and literary mentor to Fitzgerald. My sense is that even at the time, his work was considered literary. This Side of Paradise being his breakthrough novel, though perhaps some saw it as faddish as an account of the Flapper age.

    , @njguy73
    @Steve Sailer

    In a 2010 column, Bill James asked why we're not good at finding literary talent, but so good at finding athletic talent. He concluded, we don't need new Shakespeares because we still have the old one, but we need new Justin Verlanders because pitchers don't last as long.

    https://www.billjamesonline.com/article1400/

    , @Anon
    @Steve Sailer


    My impression is Hemingway was considered an important literary innovator from the late 1920s onward.
     
    Michael Reynolds wrote a five-volume biography of Hemingway. Volume 2 is The Paris Years, which I read after watching Woody Allen's hilarious and interesting Midnight in Paris, in which Owen Wilson time travels back to 1920s Paris. After seeing that I wanted to read about the expat scene in Paris, and the Reynolds book was just the thing. It covers the important part of Hemingway's development, but also deals with the other expats lurking about in Paris at the time and the general ambience. As a longtime expat myself, in Tokyo, I recognized all the dramatis personae: the same characters turn up time and time again across the ages in expat communities. Hemingway filled the shoes of "the pretentious asshole writer" of his time and place (although unlike most, he had talent and wasn't a faker). His wife seemed really sweet; pity about her husband.
  25. There are plenty of male authors publishing out there, though.

    Self-publishing. On Amazon.

    But how to find them, and how to sort them out, given the ubiquity of the algorithms the algorithms the goddam algorithms.

    • Agree: Gordo
    • Replies: @Raymund Eich
    @anon

    If you’re looking for science fiction by a straight white male author, browse the book pages at my website:

    https://raymundeich.com/books

    Ebook, print, audiobooks, at Amazon and many other bookstores.

    , @Dr. DoomNGloom
    @anon

    Andy Weir's "The Martian" is one of the few books I've had the motivation to get through in recent years.

  26. As fewer boys go to college, the demand for literary fiction by men will only weaken.

    On the other hand, it’s possible that the kind of boys who’ve stopped going to college are the kind who even in the past, college or not, weren’t into literary fiction.

    For all the contempt and disgust I feel now toward the higher ed industry, if I were 18 again I’d still go to college, in fact I’d be pleased to be accepted once again to the now disgustingly woke institution I attended in the 1970s.

  27. Remember Bank Street Writer, the word processor that let you password protect individual documents? The Chinese were paying attention, and their word processor won’t let you log back in to continue work on a draft which the program determines to merit censorship.
    https://gizmodo.com/china-censorship-wps-1849183981?utm_source=substack

  28. And yet the world’s foremost and by far most interesting living author is a straight, white, rather ugly man. Michel Houellebecq.

    • Replies: @JimDandy
    @Anon

    A very interesting phenomenon. But France is still a very different place than America. He gets reluctant, tepid props here because he's foreign.

    Replies: @Peter D. Bredon

  29. Things are going to get even worse as the Tumblr generation matures. Much as how Deviant Art and Tumblr are claimed to have ruined a generation of art students and from their maturing into careers, industries that are required to hire them. As any industry loses a sense of prestige or monetary benefit, men will tend to abandon it and as it becomes a female dominated space in the modern social media world, it becomes Tumblr in real life, further increasing the vicious cycle.

    Here is a great example of what new actually high selling authors are going to look like. Much like the literary agent who claimed the situation is others having, of course, neon hair, Alice Oseman matured under the influence of online communities, in her case Tumblr. She writes what is essentially bad fanfic about uwu gay boys at private schools. She recently made a mint selling the rights to make it a TV show. This is likely to be a successful model as when you are forced to write a long story as a novel involving social rather than external drama you’re forced to make it make sense. A lot of TV shows based on social drama burn out after a season and become a mess. (Euphoria is a great example, I don’t even watch it and I knew what would happen)

    When publishing is full of people like this increasingly young straight men don’t need to be told they’re not welcome, they’ve worked it out by now.

    In fairness, maybe having nice middle class neurotic girls writing young adult stories is better than having gay men in their 40s writing them, that might be why teen dramas have degraded in coherent plot and become about graphic sex in recent years. But it’s what is going to sell.

    Partly it’s because despite the theoretical value in terms of money, companies have largely failed to make a female audience for video games that can match the male one. Of course, I’d argue that girls have become obsessed and spend even more time than males on a video game. It’s called social media and it’s the biggest most addictive online multiplayer game ever made.

  30. I’ve never heard of any of the new female novelists named, has anyone else? Say what you want about Hemingway but people read him.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @J.Ross

    Sally Rooney is talked about and likely read.

    Replies: @JimDandy

  31. @JohnnyWalker123
    Who controls the publishing industry?

    Answer this question.

    Replies: @JimDandy, @J.Ross, @kaganovitch

    Literally the Gary Shandling Show answer.

  32. SFG says:

    The interesting question is, how to get around it? Delicious Tacos built up a following first on his blog. I admit a lot of men would rather play at video games. The problem is, video games, like movies, require a lot of money and people to develop, so you don’t get a singular author voice and you’re much more prone to sanction by the powers that be.

    It’s not unheard of for the ‘unrespectable’ art form to become the dominant one commercially and later the respectable one later on. I don’t see that happening here as women are more into books.

    FWIW, I often toy with the idea of using the Hispanic and Jewish cards to slip crimethink into the mainstream. But I would still be swimming upstream as a straight guy, and the alt right would accuse me of entryism. Which way to go?

    • Replies: @sayless
    @SFG

    Write mysteries. People who like them can't get enough of them, and publishers are always looking for more.

  33. @Steve Sailer
    @Anonymous

    I'm a little vague on which of these now famous novelists were considered literary writers during their own time. Hammett, Chandler, and Cain are now major figures in American letters, but at the time they were considered more as successful pulp writers who happened to inspire classic movies. Fitzgerald was a huge celebrity in the 1920s, but was he considered a literary writer at the time?

    My impression is Hemingway was considered an important literary innovator from the late 1920s onward. Hemingway's connection to high art modernist types in Paris like Ezra Pound and Gertrude Stein assured that from the beginning he wasn't considered a pulp writer, even though the ease with which he could be read and his manly subject matter might otherwise suggest he was. The young Evelyn Waugh, a very self-consciously elitist modernist, always saw Hemingway as the giant who once and for all killed the ornate Victorian prose style that Waugh despised.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Mark G., @JimDandy, @mousey, @Chriscom, @njguy73, @Anon

    Patricia Lockwood

    No One Is Talking About This is the debut novel by American poet Patricia Lockwood, published in 2021. It was a finalist for the 2021 Booker Prize, was one of the New York Times’ 10 best books of 2021, and won the 2022 Dylan Thomas Prize.

    The novel focuses on a woman who is always online.

    Yaa Gyasi

    Homegoing is the debut historical fiction novel by Ghanaian-American author Yaa Gyasi, published in 2016. Each chapter in the novel follows a different descendant of an Asante woman named Maame, starting with her two daughters, who are half-sisters, separated by circumstance: Effia marries James Collins, the British governor in charge of Cape Coast Castle, while her half-sister Esi is held captive in the dungeons below. Subsequent chapters follow their children and following generations.

    Raven Leilani

    Luster is a 2020 debut novel by Raven Leilani. It follows a Black woman in her twenties who gets involved with a fortysomething white man in an open marriage.

    Avni Doshi

    Girl in White Cotton is the debut novel by Avni Doshi, an American writer of Indian origin. Doshi wrote the novel over the course of seven years. It tells the story of a troubled mother-daughter relationship in Pune, India.

    Lauren Oyler

    Fake Accounts is the 2021 debut novel by American author and critic Lauren Oyler. It was published on February 2, 2021, by Catapult, and on February 4, 2021, by Fourth Estate.

    The novel follows a young woman who discovers that her boyfriend is behind a popular Instagram account which promotes conspiracy theories.

    This must be some kind of joke ….

    • Thanks: Nicholas Stix
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Guys write books like, "Man gets trapped on desert island. How can he survive until he's rescued" or "Astronaut gets trapped on Mars. How can he survive until he's rescued?"

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @SunBakedSuburb

    , @Cagey Beast
    @Bardon Kaldian


    Lauren Oyler

    Fake Accounts is the 2021 debut novel by American author and critic Lauren Oyler. It was published on February 2, 2021, by Catapult, and on February 4, 2021, by Fourth Estate.

    The novel follows a young woman who discovers that her boyfriend is behind a popular Instagram account which promotes conspiracy theories.

     


     
    I listened to the audio version of this one. It's boring. Nothing happens: the main character has no interest in the online conspiracy theories of her boyfriend or in other people generally. She moves back to Berlin (where she met her now absent boyfriend) but she doesn't put any effort into learning German or anything much about the locals. She just goes on a series of first dates and makes up different personas for herself. It's just chick lit for trust fund epigones.
    , @Gordo
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Why do block women think White men find them attractive?

  34. Science fiction is traditionally a men’s genre, and, by some accounts, it’s now the only genre of fiction with more male than female readership.

    With that in mind, take a look at major SF publisher Tor’s “most anticipated SF books for the rest of 2022”:

    https://www.tor.com/2022/07/19/the-30-most-anticipated-sff-books-for-the-rest-of-2022/

    It’s 100% chick lit and >90% of it was written by female authors. And most of it is talcum-soft “science fiction” or outright fantasy. None of it is anything like Heinlein, Asimov, or Clarke.

    New authors at the major SF publishing houses skew female bigtime. There can be no doubt that male hopefuls are being discriminated against.

    These days, in truth, high-quality science fiction is hardly written by Americans at all. Fortunately some white male British authors are still active — Stephen Baxter, Alastair Reynolds, Ken MacLeod, Paul Macauley, etc.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Adept

    Do any of these award-winning female sci-fi writers ever get movie deals like the nerdy white guy author of "The Martian" did?

    https://andyweirauthor.com/

    Replies: @Adept, @kaganovitch, @epebble

    , @Dan Smith
    @Adept

    Waving my own flag here: I've got a SF novel being published later this year by Olympia Press in the UK titled The Chronokine.. It's not Heinlein or Asimov, but one has to start somewhere.

    , @possumman
    @Adept

    Female written sci -fi is almost all terrible--but since most sci-fi is now sword and sorcery fantasy crap an awful lot of it is terrible anyway.

    Replies: @NOTA

    , @Tex
    @Adept

    Tor was an early and enthusiastic adopter of woke ideology. In the Aughts many online kerfluffles centered around the usual woke obsessions. Tor sort of catered to those, at least Tor editors Patrick and Teresa Neilson Hayden did.

    The other thing Tor did is was to leverage their influence to constantly win awards, Hugos & Nebulas. The Sad Puppies and Rabid Puppies were a reaction to that. The crowing about how no men were nominated for Nebulas for one cycle in the Teens (IIRC the award and date) was particularly over the top and energized a lot of Puppies.

  35. @northeast
    White men are in retreat on many fronts. Good luck as a white male trying to get into veterinary school in the USA. Almost 65% of vets are now female, with something like 80% of the vet school population currently female. No accident.

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @Guest007, @Sollipsist, @Peter Akuleyev

    Women are 80% of pharmacy school, 80% of physical therapist, 90% of nurses. As ed and men has replaced manufacturing as the place for jobs, men have been left behind. What most men need to understand that a career field dominated by women will always have more job openings because women move in and out of the job market more than men.

    If women are doing to be 60% of college graduates and have better GPAs than men, then graduate schools are going to be dominated by women.

    • Replies: @JackOH
    @Guest007

    From locally published statistics: White male students at a nearby medical school--22%; White males at our local Podunk Tech--36%; White males among faculty, staff, and admins at that same Podunk Tech--34%.

    In Orwell's America, those preferences don't exist. If we concede those preferences do exist, then they need to be regarded as therapeutic, restorative, or reparative to "form a more perfect union". We'll never admit those preferences are causing untold and undue injuries to a lot of innocent and talented White guys who are being forced to the margins.

    Replies: @Guest007

  36. @Redneck farmer
    @northeast

    If you're a white male who wants to work with food animals, there's now subtle Affirmative Action for you in a lot of vet schools. Too many girls just want to work with puppies and kitties and horsies, not cows, pigs and chickens.

    Replies: @Guest007, @Diversity Heretic

    Most female vets do not want to be large animal vets. They want to be small animal vets with better working hours. What is interesting is the creation of chain vet hospitals along the lines of urgent medical clinics. Those clinics will be staffed by women vets trying to pay off their debts.

    • Replies: @Vladimir Berkov
    @Guest007

    At least back when a friend of mine was applying (three different years) to get into vet school, it was even more restricted at the "source" than med schools. You basically had a small number of approved vet schools in the country which all college grads competed to get into because small animal vet work, like elective surgery, plastic surgery, dermatology, and many other specialities in medicine, pays well with good hours and high prestige.

    The downside is after you promote women into these college slots it's a double whammy. First you always need more women than men for any given job because women often quit and get married, have kids, cut back on working hours, etc. Second, women don't like the jobs with hard labor, long hours, or risk of injury, especially coupled with low prestige.

    Thus you get a lot of women elementary school teachers but relatively few women welding teachers. You get a lot of women dermatologists but few top surgeons, and a lot of posh vets with cats and few vets in the muck in the barn with the cows.

    Replies: @Guest007

  37. When Ravi Raman, an executive coach in Minneapolis, works with clients who are burned out, he often finds they’re stuck in a torrent of work that’s not what they were hired to do. One product-management leader at a tech company realized she was spending more than 20% of her time on diversity training and interviewing candidates for other teams—important jobs, but not what her bosses wanted her to focus on, it turned out. Once on track for a promotion this past February, she was told she hadn’t done enough big, strategic work to earn it, Mr. Raman says.

    https://archive.ph/CSSdp

  38. @Anon
    @LadyTheo

    Amazon’s daily deals for Kindle, typically 1-day $3 sales, are 90% chick lit, romances and mysteries, very little guy fiction or nonfiction.

    On the other hand, I’ve noticed a lot of self-published or small press male genre fiction, cop/detective/military thrillers. There seems to be an ecosystem of support services like design, copy editing, and ebook formatting that lets independents put out slick product, and the Amazon review infrastructure floats the cream to the top.

    So the publishing industry may be going the same way as the newspaper industry, with a big three remaining and the rest going belly up (NYT, WaPo, WSJ), to be replaced by the publishing versions of blogging and Substack.

    Replies: @White Guy In Japan, @epebble, @James J. O'Meara

    “On the other hand, I’ve noticed a lot of self-published or small press male genre fiction, cop/detective/military thrillers. There seems to be an ecosystem of support services like design, copy editing, and ebook formatting that lets independents put out slick product, and the Amazon review infrastructure floats the cream to the top.”

    Thanks to Kindle, I have seen some nice male-driven sub-genres emerge. Specifically, I dig the Asian Noir novels. Written by white men living in Asia (mainly SE), the novels remind me of older detective fiction a la Raymond Chandler. Dead hookers, crooked cops and lots of lost white souls wandering around Thailand.

    Fun bedtime reading!

    • Thanks: bomag
    • Replies: @Erik Sieven
    @White Guy In Japan

    which author would be good to try this genre?

    Replies: @White Guy In Japan

    , @Rich
    @White Guy In Japan

    Any recommendations?

    Replies: @White Guy In Japan

    , @Guest87
    @White Guy In Japan

    Same with sci fi. Marko Kloos and B.V Larson do great military sci fi, for when you happen to run out of Warhammer 40K stuff to read.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen

  39. @JimDandy
    @JohnnyWalker123

    Jews. Oh, wait, you weren't talking to me, were you?

    Replies: @Cagey Beast

    Blaming Anglo-American feminism on Jews has to be one of the weakest arguments out there. Feminism is something we cooked up ourselves or at least our Dissenter neighbours did:

    Seneca Falls Convention
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seneca_Falls_Convention

    People should have a look at that Wikipedia entry and follow the links to get a sense of how deeply the roots of wokeness go. Continental Europe has its republican and anti-clerical strains of liberalism and progressivism but modern feminism is our baby.

    The Ellis Island Jews took Yankee feminism, republicanism, anti-Europeanism and the worship of Blacks to new heights but they didn’t invent them.

    • Agree: Ian M.
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Cagey Beast

    Right, progressivism was likely existent by the time of the English Civil War in 1647:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putney_Debates

    I wouldn't be surprised if the ideology was existent in Shakespeare's time around 1600, but that we underestimate it back then because Shakespeare didn't exhibit much of it.

    Replies: @S Johnson, @JimDandy, @Bill P, @Hibernian, @Prester John

    , @JimDandy
    @Cagey Beast

    He asked who controls publishing. I gave the correct answer. You took things in interesting albeit digressive direction.

    , @AnotherDad
    @Cagey Beast


    Blaming Anglo-American feminism on Jews has to be one of the weakest arguments out there. Feminism is something we cooked up ourselves or at least our Dissenter neighbours did:

    ...

    The Ellis Island Jews took Yankee feminism, republicanism, anti-Europeanism and the worship of Blacks to new heights but they didn’t invent them.
     

    Been here before. But in brief:

    Dissenting Protestanism--and dissenting Protestant utopianism--is baked into America.

    But there is a substantial difference between "Everyone should behave like us!" and "Those flyover goyim racist oppressors suck!"

    And on several key issues--proper behavior, eugenics, third world hordes, and at the core "who are the role models", "who does the country belong to"--the difference between early 20th century Protestant "Progressives" and modern "progressives" is day and night.


    **FYI "republicanism" has not remotely been "taken to new heights". Republicanism--specifically ordinary citizens doing self-government, a very dissenting Protestant thing--is not something Jews are remotely interested in. It is no accident that we have become dramatically less democratic with the courts and bureaucracy now making all the decisions and working avidly to prevent the citizens from having a voice. It's called "Our Democracy".

    Replies: @Cagey Beast

    , @Hibernian
    @Cagey Beast


    The Ellis Island Jews took Yankee feminism, republicanism, anti-Europeanism and the worship of Blacks to new heights but they didn’t invent them.
     
    This.

    Replies: @JimDandy

  40. @Cagey Beast
    @JimDandy

    Blaming Anglo-American feminism on Jews has to be one of the weakest arguments out there. Feminism is something we cooked up ourselves or at least our Dissenter neighbours did:

    Seneca Falls Convention
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seneca_Falls_Convention

    People should have a look at that Wikipedia entry and follow the links to get a sense of how deeply the roots of wokeness go. Continental Europe has its republican and anti-clerical strains of liberalism and progressivism but modern feminism is our baby.

    The Ellis Island Jews took Yankee feminism, republicanism, anti-Europeanism and the worship of Blacks to new heights but they didn't invent them.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @JimDandy, @AnotherDad, @Hibernian

    Right, progressivism was likely existent by the time of the English Civil War in 1647:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putney_Debates

    I wouldn’t be surprised if the ideology was existent in Shakespeare’s time around 1600, but that we underestimate it back then because Shakespeare didn’t exhibit much of it.

    • Agree: Cagey Beast
    • Replies: @S Johnson
    @Steve Sailer

    The Tempest act 2, scene 1 glances at utopian ambitions among early American colonists, which Shakespeare seems to see as tending towards anarchy:


    I' the commonwealth I would by contraries
    Execute all things; for no kind of traffic
    Would I admit; no name of magistrate;
    Letters should not be known; riches, poverty,
    And use of service, none; contract, succession,
    Bourn, bound of land, tilth, vineyard, none;
    No use of metal, corn, or wine, or oil;
    No occupation; all men idle, all;
    And women too, but innocent and pure;
    No sovereignty;
     
    It’s parodied by the subplot in which the low-status characters aided by Caliban conspire to murder the actual king.
    , @JimDandy
    @Steve Sailer

    Right, and and the ideologies of Soros-backed DAs go way back too.

    Replies: @Mike Tre

    , @Bill P
    @Steve Sailer

    https://www.newenglandhistoricalsociety.com/maypole-infuriated-puritans/

    , @Hibernian
    @Steve Sailer


    ...Shakespeare didn’t exhibit much of it.
     
    He was Catholic, a Recusant.
    , @Prester John
    @Steve Sailer

    Who were the original American "progressives?" Why, the Puritans of course! After all, it was they who called themselves "The Saints" and whose destiny it was to erect (as per John Winthrop's sermon) "a city on a hill."

  41. @Adept
    Science fiction is traditionally a men's genre, and, by some accounts, it's now the only genre of fiction with more male than female readership.

    With that in mind, take a look at major SF publisher Tor's "most anticipated SF books for the rest of 2022":

    https://www.tor.com/2022/07/19/the-30-most-anticipated-sff-books-for-the-rest-of-2022/

    It's 100% chick lit and >90% of it was written by female authors. And most of it is talcum-soft "science fiction" or outright fantasy. None of it is anything like Heinlein, Asimov, or Clarke.

    New authors at the major SF publishing houses skew female bigtime. There can be no doubt that male hopefuls are being discriminated against.

    These days, in truth, high-quality science fiction is hardly written by Americans at all. Fortunately some white male British authors are still active -- Stephen Baxter, Alastair Reynolds, Ken MacLeod, Paul Macauley, etc.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Dan Smith, @possumman, @Tex

    Do any of these award-winning female sci-fi writers ever get movie deals like the nerdy white guy author of “The Martian” did?

    https://andyweirauthor.com/

    • Replies: @Adept
    @Steve Sailer

    I am unaware of any at all.

    And Weir's career trajectory supports Oates' point. At first, Andy Weir couldn't find a publisher, and "The Martian" was self-published. It was picked up by a publishing house only after it had become too popular to ignore.

    , @kaganovitch
    @Steve Sailer

    Do any of these award-winning female sci-fi writers ever get movie deals like the nerdy white guy author of “The Martian” did?

    While not exactly the same thing, it turns out 'The Matrix' series was written by a woman/women.

    , @epebble
    @Steve Sailer

    Some (non-SciFi) film adaptations:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gone_Girl_(film)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Girl_on_the_Train_(2016_film)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_Before_You_(film)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifty_Shades_Darker_(film)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Becoming_(2020_documentary_film)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Where_the_Crawdads_Sing_(film)

  42. @Bardon Kaldian
    @Steve Sailer

    Patricia Lockwood


    No One Is Talking About This is the debut novel by American poet Patricia Lockwood, published in 2021. It was a finalist for the 2021 Booker Prize, was one of the New York Times' 10 best books of 2021, and won the 2022 Dylan Thomas Prize.

    The novel focuses on a woman who is always online.
     
    Yaa Gyasi

    Homegoing is the debut historical fiction novel by Ghanaian-American author Yaa Gyasi, published in 2016. Each chapter in the novel follows a different descendant of an Asante woman named Maame, starting with her two daughters, who are half-sisters, separated by circumstance: Effia marries James Collins, the British governor in charge of Cape Coast Castle, while her half-sister Esi is held captive in the dungeons below. Subsequent chapters follow their children and following generations.
     
    Raven Leilani

    Luster is a 2020 debut novel by Raven Leilani. It follows a Black woman in her twenties who gets involved with a fortysomething white man in an open marriage.
     
    Avni Doshi

    Girl in White Cotton is the debut novel by Avni Doshi, an American writer of Indian origin. Doshi wrote the novel over the course of seven years. It tells the story of a troubled mother-daughter relationship in Pune, India.
     
    Lauren Oyler

    Fake Accounts is the 2021 debut novel by American author and critic Lauren Oyler. It was published on February 2, 2021, by Catapult, and on February 4, 2021, by Fourth Estate.

    The novel follows a young woman who discovers that her boyfriend is behind a popular Instagram account which promotes conspiracy theories.

     

    This must be some kind of joke ....

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Cagey Beast, @Gordo

    Guys write books like, “Man gets trapped on desert island. How can he survive until he’s rescued” or “Astronaut gets trapped on Mars. How can he survive until he’s rescued?”

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @Steve Sailer

    The first, more or less: Daniel Defoe, "Robinson Crusoe".

    The second, more or less: Stanislaw Lem, "The Invincible", https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Invincible

    , @SunBakedSuburb
    @Steve Sailer

    Your two pitches are redolent of how-to manuals. They need monsters.

  43. @J.Ross
    I've never heard of any of the new female novelists named, has anyone else? Say what you want about Hemingway but people read him.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Sally Rooney is talked about and likely read.

    • Replies: @JimDandy
    @Steve Sailer

    That's because Sally Rooney is a pretty good writer of contemporary fiction, which makes her an exceptional woman writer of contemporary fiction.

    Replies: @J.Ross

  44. I will say this about female authors: they write men much better than male authors write women. With the exception of The Mists of Avalon (shudder), I have never read fiction by a woman with unbelievable male characters, while even some otherwise talented male authors can write eye-rollingly ridiculous women.
    It HAS gotten better, though. American fiction written by men between 1920 and 1960 is the worst.

    • Replies: @Mike Tre
    @Ian Smith

    Nonsense

    Replies: @Ian Smith, @Adam Smith

    , @Tracy
    @Ian Smith


    I will say this about female authors: they write men much better than male authors write women.
     
    If so, they probably start with a female character, and then add reason and accountability.
    , @Guest87
    @Ian Smith

    I still have nightmares about some romance scenes that Tom Clancy had in Red Storm Rising.

    , @Blodgie
    @Ian Smith

    Your comment sounds like something your wife said that you have internalized and think is your own idea.

    Replies: @Ian Smith

    , @J.Ross
    @Ian Smith

    You asked for it.
    ...
    search for the SCTV s2e02 sketch You! I'm taking my own head, screwing it on right, and nobody's going to tell me that it's not!, with the glorious Andrea Martin.
    Search variation
    Search variation
    Search variations
    Well hell, I'm glad I downloaded it before the purge in 2020, evidently it's not on YouTube any more.

    Replies: @James J. O'Meara

    , @Bardon Kaldian
    @Ian Smith

    I don't think you're right.

    Perhaps you are with regard to some American authors, but the whole line from Balzac, Flaubert, Stendhal, Zola, Turgenev, Dostoevsky, James, Tolstoy, Lawrence, .. is full of believable female characters (at least, that's what most female readers say).

    They say the same about Dreiser & most Hemingway's female-centered stories, plus a few other novelists.

    Replies: @Ian Smith

  45. @Steve Sailer
    @Cagey Beast

    Right, progressivism was likely existent by the time of the English Civil War in 1647:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putney_Debates

    I wouldn't be surprised if the ideology was existent in Shakespeare's time around 1600, but that we underestimate it back then because Shakespeare didn't exhibit much of it.

    Replies: @S Johnson, @JimDandy, @Bill P, @Hibernian, @Prester John

    The Tempest act 2, scene 1 glances at utopian ambitions among early American colonists, which Shakespeare seems to see as tending towards anarchy:

    I’ the commonwealth I would by contraries
    Execute all things; for no kind of traffic
    Would I admit; no name of magistrate;
    Letters should not be known; riches, poverty,
    And use of service, none; contract, succession,
    Bourn, bound of land, tilth, vineyard, none;
    No use of metal, corn, or wine, or oil;
    No occupation; all men idle, all;
    And women too, but innocent and pure;
    No sovereignty;

    It’s parodied by the subplot in which the low-status characters aided by Caliban conspire to murder the actual king.

  46. Women buy more books than men, so I suppose there is a certain logic to this madness. Most literary agents are women, and reading their websites leaves the conviction that they prefer representing authors from previously marginalized communities, meaning LQBTQ+ and POCs. A camel could pass through the eye of a needle, etc.

  47. @Dave Pinsen

    “I was having a meeting the other day with yet another 28-year-old woman,” he continues. “I always ask editors, ‘What are you looking for’, and she happened to say, ‘What I really want is a generational family drama’. I said, ‘Oh, like The Corrections by Jonathan Franzen?’ and honestly, you would think I’d said Mein Kampf. She said, ‘No! Nothing like that!’. And I thought, ‘But that’s literally what you’ve described!’”
     
    Has there ever been a profession that became better when dominated by women? Maybe nursing, but a woman kind of invented it.

    The Corrections by Jonathan Franzen is probably better than anything a woman has written this century. Franzen's ambition in writing it was to write a literary novel that was also a page-turner, and he succeeded.

    Franzen's subsequent novel, Freedom, might be the best American novel to describe the aughts. A lot of the hatred toward him is purely envy.

    An example of the female-dominated publishing industry's failure: a writer named Kristen Roupenian got her short story called "Cat Person" published in the New Yorker a few years ago. It was a pretty good story, about a college girl's brief relationship with an older, socially and sexually awkward man (he takes the girl to a Holocaust movie on their first date), and it resonated with women and went viral. As a result of that, Roupenian got a 7-figure advance for writing a book of short stories, which got outsold by the self-published psuedonymous author "Delicious Tacos".

    I haven't bought any of Tacos' books, because I think I'd find them too depressing, but some of the stories of his I've read have been great. One example is Autopilot, which starts with a similar premise as the Ben Stiller prestige TV show "Severance", but is much pithier and funnier.

    Replies: @JimDandy, @Almost Missouri, @martin_2, @Rodger Dodger, @Jack D, @JimDandy, @James J. O'Meara

    some of the stories of his I’ve read have been great. One example is Autopilot, which starts with a similar premise as the Ben Stiller prestige TV show “Severance”, but is much pithier and funnier.

    Okay, I laughed (reading DT’s story not your comment). But, I pretty much knew where it was going once the pharma angle was explained, maybe because I’d read basically the same story in 1970s underground comics (#ThingsMyParentsShouldHaveKeptAwayFromMe).

    I’d never heard of Severance, but if both Great White Hope Delicious Tacos’s and Jewish Establishmentarianist Ben Stiller’s big achievements are rewrites of 50-year-old comix tropes, well, maybe there’s a reason that serious readers haven’t bothered with anything much written since 1950. Okay, maybe that French guy…

    • Replies: @Meretricious
    @Almost Missouri

    Why do people always characterize Ben Stiller as Jewish and not HALF Jewish and HALF Irish?

    Replies: @HA, @Almost Missouri

  48. @Adept
    Science fiction is traditionally a men's genre, and, by some accounts, it's now the only genre of fiction with more male than female readership.

    With that in mind, take a look at major SF publisher Tor's "most anticipated SF books for the rest of 2022":

    https://www.tor.com/2022/07/19/the-30-most-anticipated-sff-books-for-the-rest-of-2022/

    It's 100% chick lit and >90% of it was written by female authors. And most of it is talcum-soft "science fiction" or outright fantasy. None of it is anything like Heinlein, Asimov, or Clarke.

    New authors at the major SF publishing houses skew female bigtime. There can be no doubt that male hopefuls are being discriminated against.

    These days, in truth, high-quality science fiction is hardly written by Americans at all. Fortunately some white male British authors are still active -- Stephen Baxter, Alastair Reynolds, Ken MacLeod, Paul Macauley, etc.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Dan Smith, @possumman, @Tex

    Waving my own flag here: I’ve got a SF novel being published later this year by Olympia Press in the UK titled The Chronokine.. It’s not Heinlein or Asimov, but one has to start somewhere.

    • Thanks: Dave Pinsen
  49. “On the social media platform Twitter, a ratio, or getting ratioed, is when replies to a tweet vastly outnumber likes or retweets. This means people are objecting to the tweet and considering its content bad.” [source: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/ratio ]

  50. @Anon
    Nobody shoule care. As the article notes, very few white men are attracted to fiction writing. This isn't an industry the average white male is interested in, and those who are will probably be coming from privileged upper middle class backgrounds anyway -- not the kind of person who has to worry about a career path. Assuming this is true, anyway, and not the anecdotal blabbering of a middle aged white woman.

    Call me when white men are being discriminated against when applying for the types of jobs they love to do, like police officer, meterologist, politician, lawyer, mechanic, ag teacher, scout sniper, hot air balloon tour guide, circus owner, solar energy, wind turbine repair man, cameraman, small aircraft pilot, amateur porn producer, knifemaker, gun salesman, etc.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Thoughts, @NOTA, @Anonymous, @Mr. Anon, @throtler

    This comment is so dumb it’s astounding

    The best male writers tend to come from Uber-Male Careers

    Raymond Chandler was an Oil Exec before writing his books

    So let’s say one of your Non-Discriminated Against White Men is a Sheriff or top Homicide Detective

    Should he not get his books published?

    How about a Male Doctor in the vein of Tess Gerritsen?

    What about an Engineer?

    How about a male Psychologist?

    These are all upper middle class

    The truth is, men write better books. I like Tess Gerritsen…Heck I like Charlene Harris, but Raymond Chandler, Ian Flemming and Tom Wolfe are Divine

    Women authors are Just Women authors–largely enjoyable tripe to pass a Sunday afternoon…and women can suppress this truth all they want and lie to themselves, but eventually even a woman wants to read a d**mn fine book and they ain’t going to be reaching for a woman author

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @Thoughts

    That's true for genre fiction, but otherwise, hardly.

    , @astrolabe
    @Thoughts


    The truth is, men write better books
     
    I can't agree with this. Men and women have different strengths as writers, and a lot of men prefer books by men, but I don't think it's fair to say this difference is due to quality. Maybe the situation is similar with black and white musicians. The idea that essentially all intellectual abilities are explained by a one dimensional g-factor is clearly wrong to me.

    Replies: @SFG

    , @Anon
    @Thoughts

    *Ahem*... Sir, my point is that white males aren't being discriminated against, at least not in any meaningful way. They're not being barred from the jobs that ordinary white men want. Jobs that people who aren't white males generally aren't even interested in.

    I could care less about who makes better writers. The world isn't about writers. Stop making everything about your minoritarian perspective. Few people spend any meaningful amount of time reading books. Most books are barely read and then spend the next several decades collecting dust in a closet.

    , @gepay
    @Thoughts

    Growing up with 2 older sisters and a father who read tons of science fiction I immediately liked Ursula LeGuinn's scifi. People had feelings which influenced what they did. Like to paraphrase: a conqueror of a planet thinks to himself when he wants to take to bed the wife of the former ruler - :of course she's not in the mood for sex with me, I just killed her husband of 10 years." Something you'd never come close to in Heinlein or Asimov or Clarke scifi. So I didn't mind at all the entrance of female science fiction writers. But trends are pendulum like, The trends have swung entirely too far for me in the woke direction. I grew in the 50s and the atmosphere was definitely homophobic with systemic racism. I'm not a biologist but I know what a woman is. The way things have gone have definitely worked out for my daughter who became a veterinary pathologist. She didn't have any probems with male dominance that she would have had if she had been my age. She earned her position. Females are better suited for the education of today. Males are still better suited for many other areas and don't have periods.

    Replies: @kaganovitch

  51. @Bardon Kaldian
    @Steve Sailer

    Patricia Lockwood


    No One Is Talking About This is the debut novel by American poet Patricia Lockwood, published in 2021. It was a finalist for the 2021 Booker Prize, was one of the New York Times' 10 best books of 2021, and won the 2022 Dylan Thomas Prize.

    The novel focuses on a woman who is always online.
     
    Yaa Gyasi

    Homegoing is the debut historical fiction novel by Ghanaian-American author Yaa Gyasi, published in 2016. Each chapter in the novel follows a different descendant of an Asante woman named Maame, starting with her two daughters, who are half-sisters, separated by circumstance: Effia marries James Collins, the British governor in charge of Cape Coast Castle, while her half-sister Esi is held captive in the dungeons below. Subsequent chapters follow their children and following generations.
     
    Raven Leilani

    Luster is a 2020 debut novel by Raven Leilani. It follows a Black woman in her twenties who gets involved with a fortysomething white man in an open marriage.
     
    Avni Doshi

    Girl in White Cotton is the debut novel by Avni Doshi, an American writer of Indian origin. Doshi wrote the novel over the course of seven years. It tells the story of a troubled mother-daughter relationship in Pune, India.
     
    Lauren Oyler

    Fake Accounts is the 2021 debut novel by American author and critic Lauren Oyler. It was published on February 2, 2021, by Catapult, and on February 4, 2021, by Fourth Estate.

    The novel follows a young woman who discovers that her boyfriend is behind a popular Instagram account which promotes conspiracy theories.

     

    This must be some kind of joke ....

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Cagey Beast, @Gordo

    Lauren Oyler

    Fake Accounts is the 2021 debut novel by American author and critic Lauren Oyler. It was published on February 2, 2021, by Catapult, and on February 4, 2021, by Fourth Estate.

    The novel follows a young woman who discovers that her boyfriend is behind a popular Instagram account which promotes conspiracy theories.

    I listened to the audio version of this one. It’s boring. Nothing happens: the main character has no interest in the online conspiracy theories of her boyfriend or in other people generally. She moves back to Berlin (where she met her now absent boyfriend) but she doesn’t put any effort into learning German or anything much about the locals. She just goes on a series of first dates and makes up different personas for herself. It’s just chick lit for trust fund epigones.

  52. @Steve Sailer
    @Adept

    Do any of these award-winning female sci-fi writers ever get movie deals like the nerdy white guy author of "The Martian" did?

    https://andyweirauthor.com/

    Replies: @Adept, @kaganovitch, @epebble

    I am unaware of any at all.

    And Weir’s career trajectory supports Oates’ point. At first, Andy Weir couldn’t find a publisher, and “The Martian” was self-published. It was picked up by a publishing house only after it had become too popular to ignore.

  53. @Steve Sailer
    @Anonymous

    I'm a little vague on which of these now famous novelists were considered literary writers during their own time. Hammett, Chandler, and Cain are now major figures in American letters, but at the time they were considered more as successful pulp writers who happened to inspire classic movies. Fitzgerald was a huge celebrity in the 1920s, but was he considered a literary writer at the time?

    My impression is Hemingway was considered an important literary innovator from the late 1920s onward. Hemingway's connection to high art modernist types in Paris like Ezra Pound and Gertrude Stein assured that from the beginning he wasn't considered a pulp writer, even though the ease with which he could be read and his manly subject matter might otherwise suggest he was. The young Evelyn Waugh, a very self-consciously elitist modernist, always saw Hemingway as the giant who once and for all killed the ornate Victorian prose style that Waugh despised.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Mark G., @JimDandy, @mousey, @Chriscom, @njguy73, @Anon

    I’m a little vague on which of these now famous novelists were considered literary writers during their own time. Hammett, Chandler, and Cain are now major figures in American letters, but at the time they were considered more as successful pulp writers who happened to inspire classic movies.

    I have a book called The World’s Best Books from 1953 listing the three thousand best books of all time. Not one of those three authors is included. Those pulp writers weren’t taken seriously then but they are still bought and read seventy years later where a lot of the authors that were considered important then are now almost completely forgotten. Some of them were already becoming forgotten before they even died. For example, Joseph Hergesheimer had four books listed in my book on the three thousand best books ever written but was lamenting to Mencken late in his life that no one read him anymore. The Big Sleep by Chandler has 3576 reviews at Amazon and is in the top 23 thousand in book sales while Java Head by Hergesheimer has 13 reviews and isn’t even in the top nine million in sales.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Mark G.

    Thanks.

    Keep in mind that Raymond Chandler wanted to be an acclaimed literary writer. He'd gone to the same English boarding school as P.G. Wodehouse and C.S. Forester (now that's a genre trifecta!). He'd tried to make it in Bloomsbury, but then drifted into the oil industry in Los Angeles. Then came the Depression and alcoholism. But he somehow retooled himself in mid-life into a Hammett-style writer but better than Hammett.

    The great anecdote is about during the War Chandler was hired to work on the movie screenplay of James. M. Cain's "Double Indemnity." Chandler told director Billy Wilder that Cain's novel's dialogue wouldn't work on the screen and he should rewrite it. Knowing that Chandler and Cain didn't like each other, a dubious Wilder called Cain ... and Cain agreed that Chandler was right.

    Professionalism.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @sayless

    , @Bardon Kaldian
    @Mark G.

    Murray, "Human Accomplishment"

    Epochcentrism

    At the end of 1899, the editor of London’s Daily Telegraph, with the assistance of learned consultants, selected the “100 Best Novels in the World” from all the novels written in any language. In all, 61 authors were represented in the list of 100 best novels. Only 27 of them —fewer than half—qualified as significant figures in Human Accomplishment’s inventory of Western literature.

    Seventeen of the 61—28 percent—were not mentioned even once by any of the 20 sources used to compile that inventory; not even by the most encyclopedic ones. And yet each of those 17 who are now ignored had written one of the supposedly 100 best novels of all time as judged in 1899. Sic transit gloria mundi.

    Recent lists have not been more judicious. In 2002, the editors of the Norwegian Book Clubs in Oslo published a list of the 100 best books of all time, based on their survey of about 100 well-known authors (e.g., Doris Lessing, Salman Rushdie, Seamus Heaney, Norman Mailer) from 54 countries. The last 100 years monopolized almost half of the titles. The winners supposedly the 100 best books in any genre written in any language since the dawn of civilization—included Nikos Kazantzakis’s Zorba the Greek, Doris Lessing’s The Golden Notebook, Toni Morrison’s Beloved, Salmon Rushdie’s Midnight’s Children, and Astrid Lindgren’s Pippi Longstocking. Franz Kafka got three titles on the list, the same number as Shakespeare. The list will appear as ludicrous to observers a century from now as the list of 1899 does today.

    , @SunBakedSuburb
    @Mark G.

    "Those pulp writers weren't taken seriously then but they are still bought and read seventy years later"

    Add to your list H.P. Lovecraft and Robert E. Howard. Genre fiction, particularly SF, Horror, Crime & Mystery, allows its writers to sustain influence long after they're dead but dreaming.

  54. Public libraries are completely co opted from the far woke left. A quick review of the new book shelf will reveal a praising bio of George Floyd, another of Hillary another pro abortion book, another extolling the greatness of Israel, two to three savaging Trump. Another praising Joe Biden. The fiction writers are almost all NYC Jews…mostly women. Oh and a couple books about how hard done the Natives are and that they deserve more money. Of course one or two on slavery too.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    @Jimmy1969

    The American Library Association was until recently located near the office where I work. They had signs saying "Libraries: Because not everything on the Internet is true." This ignores the fact that not everything in the library is true either.

  55. I have a hard time getting into literary fiction books these days. Probably due to overindulgence in my youth.

    The wimmins can have the make-believe stuff themselves for all I care.

  56. New York publishing houses are staffed with a certain type of young female editors.

    They’re all very pleasant and some are quite intelligent and attractive but they’re also the daughters of HNW individuals who subsidize their daughters post-college until they get married — so they can live their dream lives of editing at a premier publishing house, living in and partying in Manhattan while they date young captains of finance.

    All of which is entirely unaffordable on a editor’s pittance of salary. This lifestyle is only attainable if Daddy & Mommy add \$100k to your bank account annually so you can live safely and in style.

    Publishing houses know this and make every effort to recruit from families that can afford this sort of direct subsidy for their daughters.

    Nothing intrinsically wrong with that — if you were a young somewhat bookish female with rich parents, you might also desire that lifestyle (and your rich parents conversely might desire it for you too!) — but it certainly does make for very distinct patterns and paradigms on who they publish and why.

    They’re very conformist and herd-like. Very liberal. Aren’t particularly well-versed in history. Extremely unlikely to go against the grain or take risks. And want content shaped to their solipsistic sensibilities —- in short, extremely feminine in nature.

    Any book agent who actually makes a living selling books to publishers knows this and works the system around this set of rules, so to speak.

    • Agree: PiltdownMan
    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    @MagyarIro

    Yes and this is the sort of person even established authors have to get along with. John Le Carré's later novels seemed to be written with these Taylor Lorenz's types in mind. From first draft until the end of the book tour, they'd make up the majority of gatekeepers.

  57. @Redneck farmer
    @northeast

    If you're a white male who wants to work with food animals, there's now subtle Affirmative Action for you in a lot of vet schools. Too many girls just want to work with puppies and kitties and horsies, not cows, pigs and chickens.

    Replies: @Guest007, @Diversity Heretic

    I can’t imagine very many women having an interest in being a livestock veterinatian. It involves some degree of danger; cattle and hogs are and can move surprisingly fast. It also requires some degree of physical strength and the willingness to go into barns and livestock pens and to respond to calls at unusual hours. Some women may want to do this, but I think that men would be better at it and more interested. If I had a son with talent in the life sciences, I’d counsel vet school over med school.

  58. @Mark G.
    @Steve Sailer


    I’m a little vague on which of these now famous novelists were considered literary writers during their own time. Hammett, Chandler, and Cain are now major figures in American letters, but at the time they were considered more as successful pulp writers who happened to inspire classic movies.
     
    I have a book called The World's Best Books from 1953 listing the three thousand best books of all time. Not one of those three authors is included. Those pulp writers weren't taken seriously then but they are still bought and read seventy years later where a lot of the authors that were considered important then are now almost completely forgotten. Some of them were already becoming forgotten before they even died. For example, Joseph Hergesheimer had four books listed in my book on the three thousand best books ever written but was lamenting to Mencken late in his life that no one read him anymore. The Big Sleep by Chandler has 3576 reviews at Amazon and is in the top 23 thousand in book sales while Java Head by Hergesheimer has 13 reviews and isn't even in the top nine million in sales.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Bardon Kaldian, @SunBakedSuburb

    Thanks.

    Keep in mind that Raymond Chandler wanted to be an acclaimed literary writer. He’d gone to the same English boarding school as P.G. Wodehouse and C.S. Forester (now that’s a genre trifecta!). He’d tried to make it in Bloomsbury, but then drifted into the oil industry in Los Angeles. Then came the Depression and alcoholism. But he somehow retooled himself in mid-life into a Hammett-style writer but better than Hammett.

    The great anecdote is about during the War Chandler was hired to work on the movie screenplay of James. M. Cain’s “Double Indemnity.” Chandler told director Billy Wilder that Cain’s novel’s dialogue wouldn’t work on the screen and he should rewrite it. Knowing that Chandler and Cain didn’t like each other, a dubious Wilder called Cain … and Cain agreed that Chandler was right.

    Professionalism.

    • Thanks: PiltdownMan, Meretricious
    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @Steve Sailer

    Fitzgerald was recognized as a major literary novelist by his peers or by those who knew him (Hemingway, Dorothy Parker, Faulkner, Edmund Wilson, Maxwell Perkins,..).

    Orwell appreciated Henry Miller & thought him to be a master of modern prose (although a bit infantile). They met in Paris after the Republican defeat in Spain.

    On the other hand, genre fiction authors have always been looked down upon, not just by the "establishment", but also by their more ambitious colleagues.

    , @sayless
    @Steve Sailer

    I knew a Shakespearian scholar who was criticized in the English department because he gave an A+ as final grade to one of his undergraduates.

    He defended it by saying, "He writes better than I do."

  59. >Can anybody think of a database for testing this?

    Charles Murray’s database from Human Accomplishment comes to mind: https://www.unz.com/akarlin/human-accomplishment-goes-public/

    Could try correlating the incidence of female accomplishment with sociological variables of the time and place.

  60. @MagyarIro
    New York publishing houses are staffed with a certain type of young female editors.

    They’re all very pleasant and some are quite intelligent and attractive but they’re also the daughters of HNW individuals who subsidize their daughters post-college until they get married — so they can live their dream lives of editing at a premier publishing house, living in and partying in Manhattan while they date young captains of finance.

    All of which is entirely unaffordable on a editor’s pittance of salary. This lifestyle is only attainable if Daddy & Mommy add $100k to your bank account annually so you can live safely and in style.

    Publishing houses know this and make every effort to recruit from families that can afford this sort of direct subsidy for their daughters.

    Nothing intrinsically wrong with that — if you were a young somewhat bookish female with rich parents, you might also desire that lifestyle (and your rich parents conversely might desire it for you too!) — but it certainly does make for very distinct patterns and paradigms on who they publish and why.

    They’re very conformist and herd-like. Very liberal. Aren’t particularly well-versed in history. Extremely unlikely to go against the grain or take risks. And want content shaped to their solipsistic sensibilities —- in short, extremely feminine in nature.

    Any book agent who actually makes a living selling books to publishers knows this and works the system around this set of rules, so to speak.

    Replies: @Cagey Beast

    Yes and this is the sort of person even established authors have to get along with. John Le Carré’s later novels seemed to be written with these Taylor Lorenz’s types in mind. From first draft until the end of the book tour, they’d make up the majority of gatekeepers.

  61. @anon
    There are plenty of male authors publishing out there, though.

    Self-publishing. On Amazon.

    But how to find them, and how to sort them out, given the ubiquity of the algorithms the algorithms the goddam algorithms.

    Replies: @Raymund Eich, @Dr. DoomNGloom

    If you’re looking for science fiction by a straight white male author, browse the book pages at my website:

    https://raymundeich.com/books

    Ebook, print, audiobooks, at Amazon and many other bookstores.

  62. What are young white men supposed to do, self-publish?

    Or maybe they’re supposed to be busy risking their lives defending “the West” and our “values”?

    LOL LOL

    Amazing how long we were cuck dupes for all that.

  63. @Guest007
    @northeast

    Women are 80% of pharmacy school, 80% of physical therapist, 90% of nurses. As ed and men has replaced manufacturing as the place for jobs, men have been left behind. What most men need to understand that a career field dominated by women will always have more job openings because women move in and out of the job market more than men.

    If women are doing to be 60% of college graduates and have better GPAs than men, then graduate schools are going to be dominated by women.

    Replies: @JackOH

    From locally published statistics: White male students at a nearby medical school–22%; White males at our local Podunk Tech–36%; White males among faculty, staff, and admins at that same Podunk Tech–34%.

    In Orwell’s America, those preferences don’t exist. If we concede those preferences do exist, then they need to be regarded as therapeutic, restorative, or reparative to “form a more perfect union”. We’ll never admit those preferences are causing untold and undue injuries to a lot of innocent and talented White guys who are being forced to the margins.

    • Replies: @Guest007
    @JackOH

    White males make up less than 36% of those graduating from high school in 2022 so one's data shows that white males are still overrepresented. Remember less than 50% of public school students are white these days and since females are more likely than white males to graduates, that means that less than 25% of public school graduates are white male.

  64. In othet important news – North Pole said be weathermen to be cold.

  65. Looking back at the bestsellers of the 1970s, the decade I was in high school and college, I’m struck by how much reading tastes really have changed.

    https://www.listchallenges.com/new-york-times-1-fiction-bestsellers-1970-1979

    Most of these books were written by men. But back then, at least some women authors wrote books guys liked. Agatha Christie, of course, but also women authors such as the now largely forgotten Helen MacInnes, who wrote spy novels. There aren’t many women authors in 2022 who write fiction for guys—in genres that guys relate to.

    • Agree: Redneck farmer
    • Replies: @Anon
    @PiltdownMan

    Not much has changed, actually. Of the 40 books on this page of bestsellers from 2010 to 2019, 27 were written by men, 13 by women. Men are still writing the pulpy adventure stuff and selling lots of it.

    https://www.listchallenges.com/new-york-times-fiction-best-seller-list-2010-2019

  66. @Steve Sailer
    @Mark G.

    Thanks.

    Keep in mind that Raymond Chandler wanted to be an acclaimed literary writer. He'd gone to the same English boarding school as P.G. Wodehouse and C.S. Forester (now that's a genre trifecta!). He'd tried to make it in Bloomsbury, but then drifted into the oil industry in Los Angeles. Then came the Depression and alcoholism. But he somehow retooled himself in mid-life into a Hammett-style writer but better than Hammett.

    The great anecdote is about during the War Chandler was hired to work on the movie screenplay of James. M. Cain's "Double Indemnity." Chandler told director Billy Wilder that Cain's novel's dialogue wouldn't work on the screen and he should rewrite it. Knowing that Chandler and Cain didn't like each other, a dubious Wilder called Cain ... and Cain agreed that Chandler was right.

    Professionalism.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @sayless

    Fitzgerald was recognized as a major literary novelist by his peers or by those who knew him (Hemingway, Dorothy Parker, Faulkner, Edmund Wilson, Maxwell Perkins,..).

    Orwell appreciated Henry Miller & thought him to be a master of modern prose (although a bit infantile). They met in Paris after the Republican defeat in Spain.

    On the other hand, genre fiction authors have always been looked down upon, not just by the “establishment”, but also by their more ambitious colleagues.

  67. The female mind is a hive mind.

    In the publishing industry, women only hire other women who look, think, and behave like themselves. It leads to agents and editors that choose manuscripts written by novelists that remind them of themselves. It looks like intentional gatekeeping, but it’s really conformity through a female lens. In either case, it’s very unfortunate because the bottleneck ignores genuine male talent.

    When it comes to sympathy, women only help down—never up. That’s why they only publish other women or minorities. It satisfies their nurturing instinct and need for social approval. It’s quite vain to use other people to make themselves look better (“I’m helping a minority get published; I’m such a good person!”), but that’s women for you.

    A female agent is easy to find. A good woman is hard to find. A fair lady is impossible to find.

    • Agree: Cagey Beast
    • Replies: @SFG
    @Margate

    They could have said the same about us 50 years ago. Ultimately, it comes down to Who? Whom?

  68. @Thoughts
    @Anon

    This comment is so dumb it's astounding

    The best male writers tend to come from Uber-Male Careers

    Raymond Chandler was an Oil Exec before writing his books

    So let's say one of your Non-Discriminated Against White Men is a Sheriff or top Homicide Detective

    Should he not get his books published?

    How about a Male Doctor in the vein of Tess Gerritsen?

    What about an Engineer?

    How about a male Psychologist?

    These are all upper middle class

    The truth is, men write better books. I like Tess Gerritsen...Heck I like Charlene Harris, but Raymond Chandler, Ian Flemming and Tom Wolfe are Divine

    Women authors are Just Women authors--largely enjoyable tripe to pass a Sunday afternoon...and women can suppress this truth all they want and lie to themselves, but eventually even a woman wants to read a d**mn fine book and they ain't going to be reaching for a woman author

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @astrolabe, @Anon, @gepay

    That’s true for genre fiction, but otherwise, hardly.

  69. @Almost Missouri
    @Dave Pinsen


    some of the stories of his I’ve read have been great. One example is Autopilot, which starts with a similar premise as the Ben Stiller prestige TV show “Severance”, but is much pithier and funnier.
     
    Okay, I laughed (reading DT's story not your comment). But, I pretty much knew where it was going once the pharma angle was explained, maybe because I'd read basically the same story in 1970s underground comics (#ThingsMyParentsShouldHaveKeptAwayFromMe).

    I'd never heard of Severance, but if both Great White Hope Delicious Tacos's and Jewish Establishmentarianist Ben Stiller's big achievements are rewrites of 50-year-old comix tropes, well, maybe there's a reason that serious readers haven't bothered with anything much written since 1950. Okay, maybe that French guy...

    Replies: @Meretricious

    Why do people always characterize Ben Stiller as Jewish and not HALF Jewish and HALF Irish?

    • LOL: JimDandy
    • Replies: @HA
    @Meretricious

    "Why do people always characterize Ben Stiller as Jewish and not HALF Jewish and HALF Irish?"

    He's all Jewish. From wikipedia:


    She converted to Judaism six years after marrying Stiller. She insisted that she did not convert at Stiller's request, explaining, "Catholicism was dead to me". She took her conversion seriously and studied the Jewish faith in such depth that her Jewish-born husband quipped, "Being married to Anne has made me more Jewish".
     
    , @Almost Missouri
    @Meretricious

    For the same reason people don't characterize Ashkenazim as half Italian.

  70. @White Guy In Japan
    @Anon

    "On the other hand, I’ve noticed a lot of self-published or small press male genre fiction, cop/detective/military thrillers. There seems to be an ecosystem of support services like design, copy editing, and ebook formatting that lets independents put out slick product, and the Amazon review infrastructure floats the cream to the top."

    Thanks to Kindle, I have seen some nice male-driven sub-genres emerge. Specifically, I dig the Asian Noir novels. Written by white men living in Asia (mainly SE), the novels remind me of older detective fiction a la Raymond Chandler. Dead hookers, crooked cops and lots of lost white souls wandering around Thailand.

    Fun bedtime reading!

    Replies: @Erik Sieven, @Rich, @Guest87

    which author would be good to try this genre?

    • Replies: @White Guy In Japan
    @Erik Sieven

    My three favorites are Christopher G. Moore, Jake Needham and John Burdett. All available on Kindle.

    For more info:
    https://crimereads.com/bangkoks-expat-crime-fiction-scene-is-booming/
    https://thediplomat.com/2016/05/bangkok-noir-crime-fiction-in-the-city-of-angels/

    Replies: @Erik Sieven

  71. the chair of judges, Lucy Popescu

    A Transylvanian! Don’t let her ‘lean in’!

    She immediately gets ratioed by hundreds of angry replies telling her that young white men are not discriminated against but ought to be…

    She gets “ratioed” by the irrational, which is oxy- as well as regular-moronic.

    Did you know that the “golden ratio” is no more a ratio than a “tidal wave” is tidal? Because it’s irrational! Well, φ on them! They told us a fib(onacci).

    • LOL: Bardon Kaldian
  72. I thought the Covid-Lockdown Tyranny was going to bring a return to meritocracy? Gosh, it’s as if it really just accelerated the anti-White agenda.

    On the discrimination against White males, surely the ADL and SPLC will come to our defense. I mean, they’re against discrimination, right?

    Are Jack D and HA contacting them, demanding justice for whitey?

  73. @Steve Sailer
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Guys write books like, "Man gets trapped on desert island. How can he survive until he's rescued" or "Astronaut gets trapped on Mars. How can he survive until he's rescued?"

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @SunBakedSuburb

    The first, more or less: Daniel Defoe, “Robinson Crusoe”.

    The second, more or less: Stanislaw Lem, “The Invincible”, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Invincible

  74. The reason Austen speaks so well to women two hundred years later is because their interests don’t really change that much.

    Of course, this is true, and there’s nothing wrong with that. Men’s interests haven’t changed that much, either. The problem is that some people think those interests are inferior and stupid, or even evil, and that is the source of a great deal of sadness in the world today.

    • Agree: S. Anonyia, JimDandy
  75. There have always been female novelists, but in the beginning most of them had to use male pseudonyms.

    At the start Jane Austen, Emily Bronte, and George Eliot all used male pseudonyms. In fact the three Bronte sisters used the names Acton, Currer, and Ellis Bell so is to keep things tidy.

    Maybe the time has now come for young male novelists to use female names like Tabitha Trollope, Diane Dickens, Edwina Eliot, or Rowena Rowling to get their foot in the door.

    However let’s not forget that in the 19th century and the first part of the 20th century, there were no movies or TV or videos, and the novel was the primary form of fictional home entertainment and often published in installments.

    The novel has now been overtaken by other technologies, and the best male storytellers are making movies.

    The literary novel is now just a niche market and not a mass phenomenon and is probably consumed as much in podcasts as in paper form. Also public libraries are very much in decline compared to the days of my youth.

    • Replies: @Tex
    @Jonathan Mason


    Also public libraries are very much in decline compared to the days of my youth.
     
    Sad but true. Libraries were once the best possible place to take a youngster. That's not so much true when the place is a de facto homeless shelter.
    , @Ghddghh
    @Jonathan Mason

    Eliot didn’t HAVE TO use a pseudonym; she used it because she she was a shrinking violet who wanted to be anonymous. I can relate.

    , @John Pepple
    @Jonathan Mason

    Jane Austen never used a male pseudonym. Her first novel, Sense and Sensibility, didn't have a name on the title page, but merely said, "by a lady." Her next novel, Pride and Prejudice, said, "by the author of Sense and Sensibility."

  76. @Margate
    The female mind is a hive mind.

    In the publishing industry, women only hire other women who look, think, and behave like themselves. It leads to agents and editors that choose manuscripts written by novelists that remind them of themselves. It looks like intentional gatekeeping, but it's really conformity through a female lens. In either case, it's very unfortunate because the bottleneck ignores genuine male talent.

    When it comes to sympathy, women only help down—never up. That's why they only publish other women or minorities. It satisfies their nurturing instinct and need for social approval. It's quite vain to use other people to make themselves look better ("I'm helping a minority get published; I'm such a good person!"), but that's women for you.

    A female agent is easy to find. A good woman is hard to find. A fair lady is impossible to find.

    Replies: @SFG

    They could have said the same about us 50 years ago. Ultimately, it comes down to Who? Whom?

  77. @anon
    There are plenty of male authors publishing out there, though.

    Self-publishing. On Amazon.

    But how to find them, and how to sort them out, given the ubiquity of the algorithms the algorithms the goddam algorithms.

    Replies: @Raymund Eich, @Dr. DoomNGloom

    Andy Weir’s “The Martian” is one of the few books I’ve had the motivation to get through in recent years.

  78. I’m interested in Mick Herron, Edward St. Aubyn, Neal Stephenson. If I want women fiction writers it’ll still be Jane Austen every couple of years.

  79. Joyce Oates is 84.

    This might be one of the few things she can say now that anybody will notice.

    There might be next to nothing she can say now that many will care about.

    The last title on her bibliography I recognize is Because it is Bitter, Because it is my Heart (1990).

    What is the word for prophetic raging last words on the death bed? She might not be dying yet but this seems kind of like that sort of a take.

  80. My wife gets a free monthly publishing magazine at the library — good luck finding any male authors, literary or genre. Judging from her audiobook habit, female writers (and characters, often lesbian) have completely taken over the hard-boiled detective genre once owned by Chandler et al. (Dorothy Hughes was one 1940s hard-boiled type I’d recommend who could go toe-to-toe with the guys.)

    Chandler by the way left Canada and volunteered to fight for the Brits in WWI, adding to his manly-man credentials. I once again urge everyone to read his final and truly literary work, The Long Goodbye. His Marlowe character navigates the transition from dark urban noir to a sunny, suburban postwar America that is still brimming with moral rot at the core

  81. @Bardon Kaldian
    Aeons ago, I exchanged opinions with Jared Taylor at the AmRen site.

    He said that the only novelists worth reading were those dead at least 50 years.

    I had a different opinion.

    So- we settled for 30 years.

    Replies: @appianglorius, @Gordo

    Tom Wolfe, anyone? Dead 2018…

  82. @Cagey Beast
    @JimDandy

    Blaming Anglo-American feminism on Jews has to be one of the weakest arguments out there. Feminism is something we cooked up ourselves or at least our Dissenter neighbours did:

    Seneca Falls Convention
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seneca_Falls_Convention

    People should have a look at that Wikipedia entry and follow the links to get a sense of how deeply the roots of wokeness go. Continental Europe has its republican and anti-clerical strains of liberalism and progressivism but modern feminism is our baby.

    The Ellis Island Jews took Yankee feminism, republicanism, anti-Europeanism and the worship of Blacks to new heights but they didn't invent them.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @JimDandy, @AnotherDad, @Hibernian

    He asked who controls publishing. I gave the correct answer. You took things in interesting albeit digressive direction.

  83. Gatekeeping: The Lost Generation is today defined by Fitzgerald and Hemingway, one the aristocrat the other the high school grad who redefined the novel by keeping his sentences short. But the true giant of their generation was John Dos Passos, to whom Hemingway would send his manuscripts before submitting them to his editors. “Papa” and “Dos” were close friends, with shared experiences during the Great War as ambulance drivers. Both wrote early novels about the war, and both were sympathetic to the ideals of socialism. But during the Spanish Civil War, while the two were working on a documentary, Dos broke with the socialists/communists. He was impossible to cancel at that time, three of his novels having been combined into the epic USA trilogy, but he was slowly supplanted by Papa, in both the publishing industry and academia because of his rightward swing. Still, any serious student of literature has to acknowledge Dos as the greater writer; USA alone being reason enough, but there is more. Number One, about a Huey Long type southern politician, was published before All The Kings Men and is more readable (he took a break from the ground-breaking style of USA to create a more conventional novel), and Mid-Century, published in 1961 and in a return to his innovative literary form, spent 15 weeks on the NY Times best seller list. But, his anti-communism ultimately earned him a spot in the memory hole, with Papa now being considered the greatest American writer of the 20th century, in spite of Dos Passos’ telling criticism, “You never have to reach for a dictionary when reading Hemingway.” I doubt there is a single course in today’s university’s studying Dos Passos.

    • Thanks: JackOH
    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    @Woodsie

    I doubt there is a single course in today’s university’s studying Dos Passos.

    A web search turns up dozens i.e. at Stanford - AMSTUD 125C: The Lost Generation: American literature between the World Wars (ENGLISH 125C)
    This course explores American literature between the World Wars, tracing how themes of trauma, loss, disillusion, and dislocation, as well as issues of race, gender, and class, engendered vibrant "modernist" literary experimentation in this era. Writers may include John Dos Passos, Sherwood Anderson, Willa Cather, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Ernest Hemingway, Jean Toomer, Nella Larsen, William Faulkner, and Tillie Olsen.

    At Rutgers - 21:352:343,344 American Literature of the 20th and 21st Centuries (3,3)
    Major fiction, poetry, and other writing by Dreiser, Anderson, Hemingway, Fitzgerald, Eliot, O'Neill, Dos Passos, Frost, Faulkner, or other recent American authors.

    At FSU - 4121: The 20th-Century American Novel
    This course typically covers Dreiser, Dos Passos, Fitzgerald, Hemingway, Faulkner, Bellow, and Wright.

    At NYU - ENGL-UA 635 Formerly American Fiction Before World War II. Offered periodically. 4 points.
    Literary movements and social contexts in a period of remarkable innovation. Focus on realism, naturalism, modernism, and contemporary eclectic style. Novels by Theodore Dreiser, John Dos Passos, Willa Cather, Ernest Hemingway, F. Scott Fitzgerald, William Faulkner, Saul Bellow, and Ralph Ellison, as well as short fiction and critical and cultural essays.
    ]

    etc., etc.

    Replies: @Woodsie

  84. @Steve Sailer
    @Cagey Beast

    Right, progressivism was likely existent by the time of the English Civil War in 1647:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putney_Debates

    I wouldn't be surprised if the ideology was existent in Shakespeare's time around 1600, but that we underestimate it back then because Shakespeare didn't exhibit much of it.

    Replies: @S Johnson, @JimDandy, @Bill P, @Hibernian, @Prester John

    Right, and and the ideologies of Soros-backed DAs go way back too.

    • Replies: @Mike Tre
    @JimDandy

    Well, the Sheriff of Nottingham was a Soros guy.

  85. The one area of publishing where men still seem to rule is the massive history/biography. If you want 800 pages on LBJ, Churchill or some little-known but “pivotal” Civil War battle, some obsessively meticulous guy has to roll up his sleeves and do the work

  86. @LadyTheo
    Every book-pushing email I get from Amazon features nothing but female writers. I delete them all. Female writers bore me, for the most part. And I just refuse to participate in this "women good; white men bad" charade. Further, spare me the "gay black" author of any sex--if I never hear another word about homosexuals, I will be a happy camper. And blacks. These people have worn out their welcome with a lot of us.

    I don't read much "literature" these days--I have too much on my mind to lend neurons to "profundity." What I want is escape--and I get that mostly from...white, male authors. Thank the Lord for Jack Carr, et al.

    Replies: @Anon, @Director95, @Kylie

    I am currently on a Philip Kerr binge reading his Bernie Gunther, Berlin cop series. Try Eric Larsen if you like some interesting history blended with a mystery tale.

    I can tell you have you head screwed on correctly, and thereby avoid woke garbage.

  87. Another Sonmezian office politics thread, this time at the New Yorker. She seems to think she was fired for complaining about lack of diversity at the New Yorker, which is like complaining about lack of diversity in the Rolling Stones:

    Oates would probably say “Start your own damn journal”

  88. @JackOH
    @Guest007

    From locally published statistics: White male students at a nearby medical school--22%; White males at our local Podunk Tech--36%; White males among faculty, staff, and admins at that same Podunk Tech--34%.

    In Orwell's America, those preferences don't exist. If we concede those preferences do exist, then they need to be regarded as therapeutic, restorative, or reparative to "form a more perfect union". We'll never admit those preferences are causing untold and undue injuries to a lot of innocent and talented White guys who are being forced to the margins.

    Replies: @Guest007

    White males make up less than 36% of those graduating from high school in 2022 so one’s data shows that white males are still overrepresented. Remember less than 50% of public school students are white these days and since females are more likely than white males to graduates, that means that less than 25% of public school graduates are white male.

  89. I have read a lot of both fiction and non-fiction, in the half-century and a bit since I learned to read.

    I find it hard to get excited about this.

    There is a lot of good new non-fiction about, but I think I have read about six or seven novels published in the last twenty-five years. The remains of the day by Ishiguro was good. I do not really remember the others.

    The past was so much better!

    And that includes the women, some of whom were excellent.

  90. I am a literary agent. This is not so. And why ever would we invest our hopes
    in the continued success of white men in an industry which persists in
    shutting out queer and BIPOC authors?!

    This is just psychological issues enabling bigotry. Further proof that so many of our current maladies arise from women being women, unchecked.

    Of course men are just as bad, in their own way. The difference is, we can call men out on it and throw them in prison when they act out (usually when they commit violent crime). These nutty gals are overrepresented in education, social work, the media, government, and, as here, publishing.

    These unbalanced women are not as dangerous to your physical well-being as anti-social men, but they are as dangerous to a healthy society.

  91. Here are old articles from the Washington Post that explains how schools are teaching males to not be readers of literature”

    What did they read on their summer vacation? A survey of high school lists. Chris Shea

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/entertainment/books/2004/09/19/what-did-they-read-on-their-summer-vacation-a-survey-of-high-school-lists-chris-shea/4411ea96-47a6-4e57-b781-8deca1a7a6bf/

    My Summer Vacation

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2001/08/02/my-summer-vacation/eb060c29-10ee-4377-b2ba-143e0b3078e4/

  92. Any time a discussion of literature comes up, I cannot pass up the opportunity to post a link to the funniest one star reviews on Amazon of some of the most famous novels.

    https://themorningnews.org/article/lone-star-statements

    An example:
    The Sun Also Rises by Ernest Hemingway (1926)
    “Here’s the first half of the book: ‘We had dinner and a few drinks. We went to a cafe and talked and had some drinks. We ate dinner and had a few drinks. Dinner. Drinks. More dinner. More drinks. We took a cab here (or there) in Paris and had some drinks, and maybe we danced and flirted and talked sh*t about somebody. More dinner. More drinks. I love you, I hate you, maybe you should come up to my room, no you can’t’… I flipped through the second half of the book a day or two later and saw the words ‘dinner’ and ‘drinks’ on nearly every page and figured it wasn’t worth the risk.”

    Does anyone believe that a male would ever be interested in a book about drinks, dinner, flirting, and gossiping?

    • Replies: @JimDandy
    @Guest007

    I'm not even a huge Hemingway fan, but that book is a masterpiece.

  93. @Mark G.
    @Steve Sailer


    I’m a little vague on which of these now famous novelists were considered literary writers during their own time. Hammett, Chandler, and Cain are now major figures in American letters, but at the time they were considered more as successful pulp writers who happened to inspire classic movies.
     
    I have a book called The World's Best Books from 1953 listing the three thousand best books of all time. Not one of those three authors is included. Those pulp writers weren't taken seriously then but they are still bought and read seventy years later where a lot of the authors that were considered important then are now almost completely forgotten. Some of them were already becoming forgotten before they even died. For example, Joseph Hergesheimer had four books listed in my book on the three thousand best books ever written but was lamenting to Mencken late in his life that no one read him anymore. The Big Sleep by Chandler has 3576 reviews at Amazon and is in the top 23 thousand in book sales while Java Head by Hergesheimer has 13 reviews and isn't even in the top nine million in sales.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Bardon Kaldian, @SunBakedSuburb

    Murray, “Human Accomplishment”

    Epochcentrism

    At the end of 1899, the editor of London’s Daily Telegraph, with the assistance of learned consultants, selected the “100 Best Novels in the World” from all the novels written in any language. In all, 61 authors were represented in the list of 100 best novels. Only 27 of them —fewer than half—qualified as significant figures in Human Accomplishment’s inventory of Western literature.

    Seventeen of the 61—28 percent—were not mentioned even once by any of the 20 sources used to compile that inventory; not even by the most encyclopedic ones. And yet each of those 17 who are now ignored had written one of the supposedly 100 best novels of all time as judged in 1899. Sic transit gloria mundi.

    Recent lists have not been more judicious. In 2002, the editors of the Norwegian Book Clubs in Oslo published a list of the 100 best books of all time, based on their survey of about 100 well-known authors (e.g., Doris Lessing, Salman Rushdie, Seamus Heaney, Norman Mailer) from 54 countries. The last 100 years monopolized almost half of the titles. The winners supposedly the 100 best books in any genre written in any language since the dawn of civilization—included Nikos Kazantzakis’s Zorba the Greek, Doris Lessing’s The Golden Notebook, Toni Morrison’s Beloved, Salmon Rushdie’s Midnight’s Children, and Astrid Lindgren’s Pippi Longstocking. Franz Kafka got three titles on the list, the same number as Shakespeare. The list will appear as ludicrous to observers a century from now as the list of 1899 does today.

    • Thanks: Mark G.
  94. @Dumbo
    The problem is, women dominate the publishing industry now, and they are hostile to male authors and swallow all the gobbledygook of Gaydom and Wokeness, so they prefer women and non-white and gay authors.

    Of course, women just work as publishers and agents, but Jews dominate the publishing industry, since at least the 1930s, but before it was male Jews and they were not so hostile to male heterosexual authors yet.

    Replies: @Henry's Cat, @SFG

    Agreed. My hope is enough writers can work outside of traditional publishing to get contrary views out there.

  95. ” the biggest selling 19th Century novelist of the 21st Century ” It occurred to you later of course that Mark Twain was a 19th Cent. author, and even if you’re going UK only, there’s Dickens.

  96. Well if you’re a male and you like to read fiction, as I do, the good news is that the world has more strong male fiction in it already than you’ll likely be able to read in a lifetime. Even better news, much of it is available at dirt cheap prices because it’s out of copyright.

    And there’s plenty of good female fiction too, just not much in this century.

    Discover Delphi Classics, and for a couple of bucks you can get the complete works of a fictional giant. Many of these authors have gone down the memory hole, but they all produced better fiction than almost anything written in the past 50 years. Here’s a tiny bit of what’s available.

    https://www.delphiclassics.com/product-tag/victorians/

    • Agree: kaganovitch, Liza
  97. @Steve Sailer
    @Anonymous

    I'm a little vague on which of these now famous novelists were considered literary writers during their own time. Hammett, Chandler, and Cain are now major figures in American letters, but at the time they were considered more as successful pulp writers who happened to inspire classic movies. Fitzgerald was a huge celebrity in the 1920s, but was he considered a literary writer at the time?

    My impression is Hemingway was considered an important literary innovator from the late 1920s onward. Hemingway's connection to high art modernist types in Paris like Ezra Pound and Gertrude Stein assured that from the beginning he wasn't considered a pulp writer, even though the ease with which he could be read and his manly subject matter might otherwise suggest he was. The young Evelyn Waugh, a very self-consciously elitist modernist, always saw Hemingway as the giant who once and for all killed the ornate Victorian prose style that Waugh despised.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Mark G., @JimDandy, @mousey, @Chriscom, @njguy73, @Anon

    “Fitzgerald was a huge celebrity in the 1920s, but was he considered a literary writer at the time?”

    Yes, he was considered literary, if not a groundbreaking Modernist artist or whatever. Mencken called his first book the best of that year. Willa Cather, T. S. Eliot, and Edith Wharton had high praise for Gatsby when it came out. Gatsby was a commercial flop.

    • Replies: @Peter D. Bredon
    @JimDandy


    Gatsby was a commercial flop.
     
    Miles Mathis says GG was pumped by the govt deciding, for some reason, to print thousands of cheap copies to distribute to GI's in WWII. Who was behind it? Who knows.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @JimDandy, @J.Ross

  98. @Thoughts
    @Anon

    This comment is so dumb it's astounding

    The best male writers tend to come from Uber-Male Careers

    Raymond Chandler was an Oil Exec before writing his books

    So let's say one of your Non-Discriminated Against White Men is a Sheriff or top Homicide Detective

    Should he not get his books published?

    How about a Male Doctor in the vein of Tess Gerritsen?

    What about an Engineer?

    How about a male Psychologist?

    These are all upper middle class

    The truth is, men write better books. I like Tess Gerritsen...Heck I like Charlene Harris, but Raymond Chandler, Ian Flemming and Tom Wolfe are Divine

    Women authors are Just Women authors--largely enjoyable tripe to pass a Sunday afternoon...and women can suppress this truth all they want and lie to themselves, but eventually even a woman wants to read a d**mn fine book and they ain't going to be reaching for a woman author

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @astrolabe, @Anon, @gepay

    The truth is, men write better books

    I can’t agree with this. Men and women have different strengths as writers, and a lot of men prefer books by men, but I don’t think it’s fair to say this difference is due to quality. Maybe the situation is similar with black and white musicians. The idea that essentially all intellectual abilities are explained by a one dimensional g-factor is clearly wrong to me.

    • Replies: @SFG
    @astrolabe

    The arts aren’t that heavily g-loaded. Geniuses often have difficulty relating to people well, making it hard to write about them.

  99. Published authors who receive a lot of publicity – including especially “overnight sensations” who find instant fame with thousands of glowing reviews appearing simultaneously across multiple industry publications – have family connections within the publishing industry.

    Either marry into one of these families, or carve out a niche by self-publishing once-off runs or go the whole hog and start a boutique publishing house of your own.

    Btw “meritocracy” was a satirical term coined by a British socialist author. If you are using this term in a sincere, serious way you are the butt of a joke.

  100. @Anon
    And yet the world's foremost and by far most interesting living author is a straight, white, rather ugly man. Michel Houellebecq.

    Replies: @JimDandy

    A very interesting phenomenon. But France is still a very different place than America. He gets reluctant, tepid props here because he’s foreign.

    • Replies: @Peter D. Bredon
    @JimDandy

    Perhaps he paid his fee with that Public Enemies book, where he presents Bernard-Henri Lévy as "one of the good ones" (*)

    (*)My phrase not his

    Replies: @JimDandy

  101. I love Becca’s response, which is the classic schizophrenic, self-contradictory response of oppressors everywhere:

    1. Denial – there is no oppression. The oppressed are fully equal under the law and are treated equally in every way.

    2. However, if there was oppression it would be fully justified because the oppressed are bad people who would oppress us if given the chance.

    The lack of self-awareness of the Left, who think of themselves as the Good People, is stunning but again classic. If you are the Good Guys (and people always think of their side as the Good Side) then whatever you do is Good because it’s for a Good Cause. You can do anything, even kill people, but it’s still Good because your cause is just.

    • Agree: JackOH
  102. @PiltdownMan
    Looking back at the bestsellers of the 1970s, the decade I was in high school and college, I'm struck by how much reading tastes really have changed.

    https://www.listchallenges.com/new-york-times-1-fiction-bestsellers-1970-1979

    Most of these books were written by men. But back then, at least some women authors wrote books guys liked. Agatha Christie, of course, but also women authors such as the now largely forgotten Helen MacInnes, who wrote spy novels. There aren't many women authors in 2022 who write fiction for guys—in genres that guys relate to.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b4/The_Salzburg_Connection_%28novel%29.jpg

    Replies: @Anon

    Not much has changed, actually. Of the 40 books on this page of bestsellers from 2010 to 2019, 27 were written by men, 13 by women. Men are still writing the pulpy adventure stuff and selling lots of it.

    https://www.listchallenges.com/new-york-times-fiction-best-seller-list-2010-2019

  103. @Anon
    @LadyTheo

    Amazon’s daily deals for Kindle, typically 1-day $3 sales, are 90% chick lit, romances and mysteries, very little guy fiction or nonfiction.

    On the other hand, I’ve noticed a lot of self-published or small press male genre fiction, cop/detective/military thrillers. There seems to be an ecosystem of support services like design, copy editing, and ebook formatting that lets independents put out slick product, and the Amazon review infrastructure floats the cream to the top.

    So the publishing industry may be going the same way as the newspaper industry, with a big three remaining and the rest going belly up (NYT, WaPo, WSJ), to be replaced by the publishing versions of blogging and Substack.

    Replies: @White Guy In Japan, @epebble, @James J. O'Meara

    With Social networking providing some sort of meritocracy for creative talent, I think it is difficult for a truly talented writer to be blockaded for political reasons in an era of self and independent publishers.

    For those who may want to avoid the politics of all, an easy escape is to wait till a book becomes successful and then read it. For example, you can consult a list like:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_books

    for your next reading material.

    Some recent entries in the list:

    Gone Girl by Gillian Flynn
    The Fault in Our Stars by John Green
    The Girl on the Train by Paula Hawkins
    Me Before You by Jojo Moyes
    Fifty Shades Darker by E. L. James
    All the Light We Cannot See by Anthony Doerr
    The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck by Mark Manson
    Becoming by Michelle Obama
    Where the Crawdads Sing by Delia Owens

  104. @JohnnyWalker123
    Who controls the publishing industry?

    Answer this question.

    Replies: @JimDandy, @J.Ross, @kaganovitch

    Who controls the publishing industry? Answer this question.

    But that’s been true for the better part of a century with very different results.

    • Replies: @Peter D. Bredon
    @kaganovitch

    Boiling the frog. The Tribe is more patient than you seem to be. But even in the early 60s Gore Vidal already noted that only Tribal novelists were being promoted (except for an "OK Goy" like Updike).

  105. @Bardon Kaldian
    One big difference is that serious male fiction readers, with very few exceptions, are not too much interested in other races & cultures. I've seen this before.
    White male readers don't care for fictions authored by blacks, Muslims, Hindus, other Asians... of course, with exceptions.

    They find "global Western world", from Latin America to Russia, to be interesting.

    On the other hand, female readers (especially the Book Club types) follow the fashion of peeking into lives of Africans,Muslims, Hindus ...

    Replies: @kaganovitch

    One big difference is that serious male fiction readers, with very few exceptions, are not too much interested in other races & cultures.

    Doesn’t Kipling’s enduring popularity argue against that, somewhat? While his point of view is , of course, Western, his appeal comes from that peek into the exotic, no?

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @kaganovitch

    Kipling is popular because of his children & animal books. His Kim is not too popular, and it is basically a colonial fiction.

    Whites, wherever they are, read fictions authored by whites (or "white Hispanics") about the global Western world with some exotic peculiarities somewhere, but not too much. That's a world from Argentina via North America to France and Russia. Common cultural codes & sensibility. No one truly understands, nor cares about being black, Muslim or Buddhist.

    I didn't pay much attention to the topic, but I've noticed about serious male readers - not professional literary types: they don't care for Toni Morrison & "black experience"; Salman Rushdie is for them boring & alien; the same goes for ..what's her name? ... Arun .. Roy or something about Christians in India & for the most Japanese.

    White men (and women when they are not in affectation mode) just find black American, African, Muslim, Hindu, east Asian.... middle- and high brow fiction alien & bothersome.

    Exceptions are professors & similar types.

    Replies: @kaganovitch, @Irish Anti-Puritan

    , @PiltdownMan
    @kaganovitch

    Over the decades, Kipling has had more than one fan among Indian intellectuals (aside from those who've professed, de rigueur, to desipse him), who've argued that he was a special case, and that his insights are those of an insider and resident, rather than being foreign and alien. I'll find the essay if I can find it, but I remember reading an essay on Kipling by some Indian guy who argued that his prose is unique, because it translates almost perfectly into Hindustani. Meanwhile, here's another essay on Kipling, by an Indian.

    https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v22/n01/amit-chaudhuri/a-feather!-a-very-feather-upon-the-face

  106. Anon[272] • Disclaimer says:
    @Thoughts
    @Anon

    This comment is so dumb it's astounding

    The best male writers tend to come from Uber-Male Careers

    Raymond Chandler was an Oil Exec before writing his books

    So let's say one of your Non-Discriminated Against White Men is a Sheriff or top Homicide Detective

    Should he not get his books published?

    How about a Male Doctor in the vein of Tess Gerritsen?

    What about an Engineer?

    How about a male Psychologist?

    These are all upper middle class

    The truth is, men write better books. I like Tess Gerritsen...Heck I like Charlene Harris, but Raymond Chandler, Ian Flemming and Tom Wolfe are Divine

    Women authors are Just Women authors--largely enjoyable tripe to pass a Sunday afternoon...and women can suppress this truth all they want and lie to themselves, but eventually even a woman wants to read a d**mn fine book and they ain't going to be reaching for a woman author

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @astrolabe, @Anon, @gepay

    *Ahem*… Sir, my point is that white males aren’t being discriminated against, at least not in any meaningful way. They’re not being barred from the jobs that ordinary white men want. Jobs that people who aren’t white males generally aren’t even interested in.

    I could care less about who makes better writers. The world isn’t about writers. Stop making everything about your minoritarian perspective. Few people spend any meaningful amount of time reading books. Most books are barely read and then spend the next several decades collecting dust in a closet.

  107. @Adept
    Science fiction is traditionally a men's genre, and, by some accounts, it's now the only genre of fiction with more male than female readership.

    With that in mind, take a look at major SF publisher Tor's "most anticipated SF books for the rest of 2022":

    https://www.tor.com/2022/07/19/the-30-most-anticipated-sff-books-for-the-rest-of-2022/

    It's 100% chick lit and >90% of it was written by female authors. And most of it is talcum-soft "science fiction" or outright fantasy. None of it is anything like Heinlein, Asimov, or Clarke.

    New authors at the major SF publishing houses skew female bigtime. There can be no doubt that male hopefuls are being discriminated against.

    These days, in truth, high-quality science fiction is hardly written by Americans at all. Fortunately some white male British authors are still active -- Stephen Baxter, Alastair Reynolds, Ken MacLeod, Paul Macauley, etc.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Dan Smith, @possumman, @Tex

    Female written sci -fi is almost all terrible–but since most sci-fi is now sword and sorcery fantasy crap an awful lot of it is terrible anyway.

    • Replies: @NOTA
    @possumman

    Cherryh and Bujold both have written some very good books and stories. I don't keep up with the latest thing in SF (and since the whole #racefail meltdown that community has been a mess), but they are at least two pretty clear exceptions. Similarly, the Murdebot books are pretty good. Any of those three have written stories that would work well as movies, too.

    Replies: @kaganovitch

  108. @Dave Pinsen

    “I was having a meeting the other day with yet another 28-year-old woman,” he continues. “I always ask editors, ‘What are you looking for’, and she happened to say, ‘What I really want is a generational family drama’. I said, ‘Oh, like The Corrections by Jonathan Franzen?’ and honestly, you would think I’d said Mein Kampf. She said, ‘No! Nothing like that!’. And I thought, ‘But that’s literally what you’ve described!’”
     
    Has there ever been a profession that became better when dominated by women? Maybe nursing, but a woman kind of invented it.

    The Corrections by Jonathan Franzen is probably better than anything a woman has written this century. Franzen's ambition in writing it was to write a literary novel that was also a page-turner, and he succeeded.

    Franzen's subsequent novel, Freedom, might be the best American novel to describe the aughts. A lot of the hatred toward him is purely envy.

    An example of the female-dominated publishing industry's failure: a writer named Kristen Roupenian got her short story called "Cat Person" published in the New Yorker a few years ago. It was a pretty good story, about a college girl's brief relationship with an older, socially and sexually awkward man (he takes the girl to a Holocaust movie on their first date), and it resonated with women and went viral. As a result of that, Roupenian got a 7-figure advance for writing a book of short stories, which got outsold by the self-published psuedonymous author "Delicious Tacos".

    I haven't bought any of Tacos' books, because I think I'd find them too depressing, but some of the stories of his I've read have been great. One example is Autopilot, which starts with a similar premise as the Ben Stiller prestige TV show "Severance", but is much pithier and funnier.

    Replies: @JimDandy, @Almost Missouri, @martin_2, @Rodger Dodger, @Jack D, @JimDandy, @James J. O'Meara

    he takes the girl to a Holocaust movie on their first date

    That’s nothing. I took a girl to a cemetary on our first date.

    • Replies: @Kylie
    @martin_2

    "I took a girl to a cemetary on our first date."

    When my husband suggested I pick a movie for a celebration, I picked Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer.

    As to the short story, "Cat Person", I thought it was a smug, ugly hit piece of misandry. I found it appalling.

    , @SFG
    @martin_2

    Was she a goth?

    , @JimDandy
    @martin_2

    Goth girls are easy.

    , @Jim Don Bob
    @martin_2

    I took a girl on a first date to Fort Marcy Park where Vince Foster killed himself.

    Replies: @tyrone

    , @kaganovitch
    @martin_2

    That’s nothing. I took a girl to a cemetary on our first date.

    Perhaps one day a surviving Unzite will write "The Serial Killer Among Us: Memoirs of a Repentant Sailerite".

    Replies: @Abe

    , @tyrone
    @martin_2


    That’s nothing. I took a girl to a cemetary on our first date.
     
    .....did you get lucky?
    , @peterike
    @martin_2

    I took a girl to a cemetary on our first date.

    Were Keats and Yeats on her side? But Oscar Wilde on yours?

    , @Right_On
    @martin_2

    That’s nothing. I took a girl to a cemetery on our first date.


    Rose de Fer (English: The Iron Rose) is a 1973 horror drama, directed by Jean Rollin, in which a young couple, on a first date, spend the night lost in a vast cemetery. Madness ensues.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeCXKCpyHIM&ab_channel=ScreenboundPictures

  109. @Anonymous
    @Anon


    very few white men are attracted to fiction writing ... and those who are will probably be coming from privileged upper middle class backgrounds
     
    There used to be a very strong tradition of white men from lower or lower-middle-class backgrounds writing serious novels and short stories -- James T. Farrell, John Fante, John Steinbeck, Henry Miller, Charles Bukowski...and then all those guys who wrote for the pulps and popular press -- hard-boiled detective stories, science fiction, westerns: men like Max Brand, Jack Williamson, Mickey Spillane. There were so many.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Anon, @James J. O'Meara, @James J. O'Meara

    Awesome, like 10 people. Let’s say there were a hundred. Over a 100 year period. In a white male population of tens of millions. You see where I’m going with this? Not relevant to white male career paths (or any oter group’s, really).

    Again call me when the real-world macrocosm of employment is discriminating against white men. The macrocosm is what matters, not the microcosm.

  110. @Steve Sailer
    @Adept

    Do any of these award-winning female sci-fi writers ever get movie deals like the nerdy white guy author of "The Martian" did?

    https://andyweirauthor.com/

    Replies: @Adept, @kaganovitch, @epebble

    Do any of these award-winning female sci-fi writers ever get movie deals like the nerdy white guy author of “The Martian” did?

    While not exactly the same thing, it turns out ‘The Matrix’ series was written by a woman/women.

    • LOL: Bardon Kaldian
  111. Anon[316] • Disclaimer says:

    Fiction publishing became hard for anybody to break into of whatever gender back in the 1980s onward when the Baby Boom generation all decided to try their hand at novels, and publishers became flooded with manuscripts like never before. It got to the point where publishers would only look at a query from a new writer, not a manuscript. Then it got to the point where they didn’t even want unsolicited queries. You had to know somebody to even get your query looked at. Genuine talent was locked out unless you knew somebody.

    Then self-publishing came along and gave unknown authors a way to get published. However, it meant the good authors became lost in the huge mass of bad self-published authors. Good authors still have a very hard time getting noticed because there’s too much to wade through.

    Meanwhile, the whole fiction genre became a worse economic deal for authors. Contracts became a lot nastier to authors (and more in favor of the publisher). Most first-time fiction authors today get no advance at all. Most first novels by first-time authors do not sell well enough to even pay their print costs. Therefore, the average pay for a first novel is zero because the costs have to be paid off before you see royalties. Most authors are bound by contracts forbidding them to talk about this, or too humiliated to mention how badly their book sold. Most first-time fiction authors are dropped by their publisher after the first book bombs, which most of them do.

    What men have done instead of publishing fiction, is blog or make Youtube videos about everything under the sun. The opportunities to guy away about guy stuff is massive, and that’s what men do. Blogging gives you an instant audience and prestige, and that’s what a lot of fiction authors wanted in the first place, fame and and prestige.

    Youtube pays around \$2000-3000 per million views. That may not sound like much, but I keep coming across videos from men guying away who have view counts in the 100,000-900,000 range, meaning they are making more money doing that than trying to publish first novels.

    There’s another important point here that’s been overlooked. Nonfiction before 1980 didn’t used to sell so well, and that’s because it wasn’t very good. The vast majority of nonfiction in any nonfiction genre written before 1970 or so is poor quality stuff. But then the white boomer males started going to college in large numbers in the 1960s, and they gave our population a huge mass of educated males for the very first time. This generation of men started writing and publishing nonfiction in the 1980s, and from that point onward they created a huge explosion of high-quality nonfiction. There was a Renaissance in just about every genre of nonfiction, a Renaissance that nobody seems to be aware of because nobody’s pointed it out. It’s only when you compare nonfiction being written today to nonfiction pre-1970 that you become aware of the massive quality gap. Nonfiction is more lucrative today for most male writers than fiction.

    As for the publishers themselves, they just found out earlier that it’s cheaper to pay for female editors who will work for peanuts, just the way a later generation of newspaper owners realized it was cheaper to pay for female writers because they would work for peanuts. But this does tend to make what is produced by these writers almost exclusively of female interest.

    • Replies: @prosa123
    @Anon

    A bit of perspective ....

    Number of people in the entire US who make a full time living as book authors: c. 5,000.

    Number of employees at the Tesla Gigafactory in Texas: 20,000.

  112. @JimDandy
    What Joyce said. There are a lot of tiny wrinkles to the issue that can be examined and dissected under a magnifying glass, but what Joyce asserted should be the focus of the discussion--straight white men are the enemy of the woke, the NY publishing world is one of the wokest subcultures in America, and straight white men are being discriminated against in that world because they are icky. What incredible fucking chutzpah it is for these midwits to say, essentially, "We discriminated against men and stacked the deck to give women the upper hand, therefore it only stands to reason that the freshest stories out there are by women--because women are having their moment. Furthermore, womenwomenwomen!"

    Replies: @Forlorn_Scrivener, @Prester John

    “–straight white men are the enemy of the woke, the NY publishing world is one of the wokest subcultures in America, and straight white men are being discriminated against in that world because they are icky.”

    The discrimination is not confined to publishing, of course. Just as prevalent is the discrimination through tech. I use a popular free app that allows me to borrow books from my local library and read them (or listen to them) with my phone.

    Yes, the content offered skews massively woke. However, equally insidious is the algorithm used to construct lists of suggested follow-up reading material. Of the nine titles suggested I check out based on borrowing Asimov’s I, Robot, 7 are by female authors. And, one of the males is He/They as per his twitter account. All offerings are contemporary.

    This example is representative. My borrowing history is chock-full of classic science fiction: Dick, Asimov, Niven etc. or newer such stuff by Alistair Reynolds, Ian Douglas, or Taylor Anderson. There’s plenty of non-fiction (science, history), as well. Whatever means is used to determine titles I should read is obviously not based on personal preference.

    • Thanks: JimDandy
  113. I don’t understand what Joyce Carol Oates is all about. While I appreciate her finally saying something on behalf of young White man novelists (and implicitly against the sexist females dominating publishing), she devoted herself for generations (she’s 84) to attacking Whites.

    “Joyce Carol Oates’ Scorched-Earth Campaign for a Nobel Prize”
    https://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/2021/10/joyce-carol-oates-scorched-earth.html

    • Replies: @JimDandy
    @Nicholas Stix

    Probably half-nuts, but highly-intelligent. Definitely a mixed-bag. Huge Mailer defender, btw:

    "bad husband" to whom? like many oft-married men Norman Mailer wound up finally with a much younger, adoring, & altogether quite wonderful wife (Norris Church) whom everyone liked. womanizers all eventually wear out, it just takes time & if you're lucky, you are the last wife.

    Which, of course, pisses the artsy hipster progressives off to no end:

    https://bookandfilmglobe.com/creators/joyce-carol-oates-goes-to-the-rack-for-norman-mailer/

    , @SFG
    @Nicholas Stix

    Better late than never.

    And she is big enough it may get some attention.

    , @Abe
    @Nicholas Stix


    I don’t understand what Joyce Carol Oates is all about
     
    “The 3 saddest words in the English language are Joyce Carol Oates” - Gore Vidal

    Ambitious, girl boss, most-qualified-Presidential-candidate-in-history Tracy Flick/Hillary types are to the average, nice middle class beta male with an artsy bent what great white sharks are to sea otters. The average b!tchy gay male with even a modicum of verbal flair is to these Tracy Flick/Hillary/Lisa Simpson types what an orca whale is to the great white.

    Replies: @JimDandy

  114. @Nicholas Stix
    I don’t understand what Joyce Carol Oates is all about. While I appreciate her finally saying something on behalf of young White man novelists (and implicitly against the sexist females dominating publishing), she devoted herself for generations (she’s 84) to attacking Whites.

    “Joyce Carol Oates’ Scorched-Earth Campaign for a Nobel Prize”
    https://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/2021/10/joyce-carol-oates-scorched-earth.html

    Replies: @JimDandy, @SFG, @Abe

    Probably half-nuts, but highly-intelligent. Definitely a mixed-bag. Huge Mailer defender, btw:

    “bad husband” to whom? like many oft-married men Norman Mailer wound up finally with a much younger, adoring, & altogether quite wonderful wife (Norris Church) whom everyone liked. womanizers all eventually wear out, it just takes time & if you’re lucky, you are the last wife.

    Which, of course, pisses the artsy hipster progressives off to no end:

    https://bookandfilmglobe.com/creators/joyce-carol-oates-goes-to-the-rack-for-norman-mailer/

  115. @kaganovitch
    @Bardon Kaldian

    One big difference is that serious male fiction readers, with very few exceptions, are not too much interested in other races & cultures.

    Doesn't Kipling's enduring popularity argue against that, somewhat? While his point of view is , of course, Western, his appeal comes from that peek into the exotic, no?

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @PiltdownMan

    Kipling is popular because of his children & animal books. His Kim is not too popular, and it is basically a colonial fiction.

    Whites, wherever they are, read fictions authored by whites (or “white Hispanics”) about the global Western world with some exotic peculiarities somewhere, but not too much. That’s a world from Argentina via North America to France and Russia. Common cultural codes & sensibility. No one truly understands, nor cares about being black, Muslim or Buddhist.

    I didn’t pay much attention to the topic, but I’ve noticed about serious male readers – not professional literary types: they don’t care for Toni Morrison & “black experience”; Salman Rushdie is for them boring & alien; the same goes for ..what’s her name? … Arun .. Roy or something about Christians in India & for the most Japanese.

    White men (and women when they are not in affectation mode) just find black American, African, Muslim, Hindu, east Asian…. middle- and high brow fiction alien & bothersome.

    Exceptions are professors & similar types.

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    @Bardon Kaldian

    White men (and women when they are not in affectation mode) just find black American, African, Muslim, Hindu, east Asian…. middle- and high brow fiction alien & bothersome.

    If you're saying that Western readers find exotic cultures engaging when described from a Western/Colonial point of view much more so than when described from an indigenous point of view, I'd largely agree. I'm perfectly happy with the 'Silence of the Subaltern.' This is responsible for the appeal of Pearl S. Buck, Isak Dinesen, etc. To me at least, the exception is Japan. I have always found Mishima's writing fascinating.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    , @Irish Anti-Puritan
    @Bardon Kaldian

    White men (and women when they are not in affectation mode) just find black American, African, Muslim, Hindu, east Asian…. middle- and high brow fiction alien & bothersome.

    Yes but with a few notable exceptions like V.S. Naipual, Yukio Mishima and Ralph Ellison's Invisible Man.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen

  116. @Nicholas Stix
    I don’t understand what Joyce Carol Oates is all about. While I appreciate her finally saying something on behalf of young White man novelists (and implicitly against the sexist females dominating publishing), she devoted herself for generations (she’s 84) to attacking Whites.

    “Joyce Carol Oates’ Scorched-Earth Campaign for a Nobel Prize”
    https://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/2021/10/joyce-carol-oates-scorched-earth.html

    Replies: @JimDandy, @SFG, @Abe

    Better late than never.

    And she is big enough it may get some attention.

  117. Let’s get real. When a racket tries to come up with the names of admirable and exemplary men and the best that it can do is offer Caleb Azumah Nelson, Choire Sicha, Philip Roth, Jonathan Safran Foer, Joshua Ferris, and Dave Eggers, it is an enemy of white people.

  118. Abe says:
    @Nicholas Stix
    I don’t understand what Joyce Carol Oates is all about. While I appreciate her finally saying something on behalf of young White man novelists (and implicitly against the sexist females dominating publishing), she devoted herself for generations (she’s 84) to attacking Whites.

    “Joyce Carol Oates’ Scorched-Earth Campaign for a Nobel Prize”
    https://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/2021/10/joyce-carol-oates-scorched-earth.html

    Replies: @JimDandy, @SFG, @Abe

    I don’t understand what Joyce Carol Oates is all about

    “The 3 saddest words in the English language are Joyce Carol Oates” – Gore Vidal

    Ambitious, girl boss, most-qualified-Presidential-candidate-in-history Tracy Flick/Hillary types are to the average, nice middle class beta male with an artsy bent what great white sharks are to sea otters. The average b!tchy gay male with even a modicum of verbal flair is to these Tracy Flick/Hillary/Lisa Simpson types what an orca whale is to the great white.

    • Replies: @JimDandy
    @Abe

    Which of the three are you?

  119. @Steve Sailer
    @Adept

    Do any of these award-winning female sci-fi writers ever get movie deals like the nerdy white guy author of "The Martian" did?

    https://andyweirauthor.com/

    Replies: @Adept, @kaganovitch, @epebble

  120. Tex says:
    @Anonymous
    Men have so many more exciting forms of entertainment these days that there isn't much demand for non-girly literature. What demand exists is satisfied by the huge corpus of old stuff. I went to an elite college not that long ago, and I rarely saw male students reading for pleasure, and it was rarely if ever new novels when I did.
    Nonfiction and classics, sure.

    But, culture can change. And if the publishing industry really does shut out young (white, straight) male talent, resigned grumbling at parties and giving anonymous interviews isn't going to change that. People in the industry who care have to stick their necks out and advocate for specific new male authors.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen, @Henry's Cat, @Tex

    What demand exists is satisfied by the huge corpus of old stuff.

    I can’t speak for others, but in my circle of friends we tend to be voracious readers. I can’t remember a single instance of anyone gushing over the new hotness from the NY publishers.

    My reading list is composed entirely of genre fiction, often in cheap e-book format, but with a fair amount gathered from used book stores. Why would I look for some woke chick-lit when I still haven’t read The Killer Angels? I picked up a pile of ’60s-era Tarzan paperbacks and enjoy them immensely. I have Willeford’s Cockfighter on my list for a re-read. I have works by Barrington Bayley, A Merritt, Alan LeMay, and Gustav Meyrink waiting their turn. I haven’t yet read Oakley Hall’s Warlock, or Run Silent, Run Deep. The back-list is endless.

    I read a lot of non-fiction, which I think is typical of guys. There are new works regularly published about WWII, the Civil War, gangsters & lawmen, adventurers, explorers, and other guyish topics.

    • Replies: @Nick Granite
    @Tex

    Don't forget Michael Shaara's (Killer Angels) son Jeff who has wrote some damn good reads himself. I liked his "Rise to Rebellion" and "The Glorious Cause" novels on the Revolutionary War.

    , @SunBakedSuburb
    @Tex

    "genre fiction"

    It's where it's at. The Literary market shrank amongst male readers after WW2 -- The Big One. Us guys got hooked on paperbacks with rocketships and cutthroat dames and guns-a-blazing on the covers. But not on the same cover.

    "A. Merritt."

    Interesting speculative fiction writer who got his start in the pre-war pulps. The Moon Pool is great.

    "Tex"

    You might be interested in Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove quartet. It follows the adventures of Texas Rangers Call and McCrae. Scots-Irish and Irish. But there are other characters who don't share Call and McCrae's august bloodlines. Outstanding reads and I'm not a Western buff (unless you count Cormac McCarthy's Blood Meridian a Western).

    Replies: @Tex

  121. Hey Steve, have you seen the Peter Jackson Get Back film yet?

    https://1movieshd.com/tv/free-the-beatles-get-back-hd-74725

    The part where they incorporate “Pakistanis” into their embryonic seminal music lyrics for Get Back is great!

  122. Of course the Comrades will whine about the usual stuff that Intersectional Marxism whines about. That varies depending on the intended audience.

    The racial and sexual (“gender’) quota system and discrimination against White males (esp. non Jewish) is celebrated as “progress” not condemned as bigotry.

    What does the book buying marketplace say about this?

    On factor is that probably close to 90% of all “librarians” these days are women. So they undoubtedly favor their trendy female/queer authors. Particularly in academic settings where anti White Male bigotry is part of their daily mantra.

    Excluding institutional purchasers, I suspect more females buy novels than men do. Especially the non genre novels (excluding sci fi, action/adventure/police, fantasy, etc.). Of course trashy and formula “romance” novels sell well, mainly to women. The pulp paperback section in used bookstores is full of bodice rippers for gals.

    As for serious novelists, they are coming out of lit/English academia as well. But some will manage to produce readable fiction about interesting male characters. And women as well.

    I suspect non Whites buy relatively few books of any kind. Men tend to be more workplace engaged until retirement, so again, females probably lead males. Once kids are in school, mostly, there is a lot of “book club/Chardonnay” readers and Oprah book club followers.

    There are a mere handful of lit “critics” who act as gatekeepers for publishers. Very few are “real men” who have held jobs in difficult fields (sailors, soldiers, construction, mining, police, etc.) and instead are more effete types, probably more gay than average. The Hemingway novelist is long gone.

    I suspect the sales of “serious” novels is in the low thousands, usually. The Woke values have to be pushed onto consumers from above. Even then, few are buying.

    Prior to radio, TV, video, and Internet, book reading was a major leisure past-time. Now it is comic book “films” and cell phone lit bits which can be read when doing other things. Most successful authors develop characters who serve as continuing features of book series.

    I suspect the “publishing industry” is hustling the rubes and pretending that is High Art for The Mind. Nope.

    For the lower classes, there are few if any magazines at home and no books. Thanks to corruption of the educational system, a vast population of semi literate people prefer to “watch” rather than read. Watching is pre-digested for them, reading requires vocabulary and mental architecture.

    Publishers preen and strut, hoping you think they are producing fine dining for the mind. In reality they are dishing out barely intelligible cafeteria dreck, requiring few if any brain cells to fire up.

    Like in the former USSR, we are in the age of self-censoring mediocrity pushing status symbol unread “literature” and making money off everything else.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Muggles


    I suspect more females buy novels than men do.
     
    I think this has been true for at least a century. If you read Hemingway's wikipedia article, there is this passage:

    Cleonike Damianakes illustrated the dust jacket [of The Sun Also Rises] with a Hellenistic design of a seated, robed woman, her head bent to her shoulder, eyes closed, one hand holding an apple, her shoulders and a thigh exposed. Editor Maxwell Perkins intended "Cleon's respectably sexy"design to attract "the feminine readers who control the destinies of so many novels".

    Damianakes (aka "Cleon") was a female artist whose art combined elements of Greek classicism with Art Deco style. Her cover for a Farewell to Arms was even more explicitly sexual. It portrays Venus (in the form of a winged angel) and Mars. Venus is completely nude except for some red feathers draped across her nether regions. Mars has sixpack muscles and they both look like they just finished "doing it" - the only thing missing is that they are not smoking cigarettes. They got away with this in the Roaring '20s but this level of explicit sexuality wouldn't be seen again until the 1960s. Hemingway himself was not a fan but Perkins knew what he was doing - the book was a bestseller.
    , @NOTA
    @Muggles

    Is this a market opportunity? YA publishing is famously a hellscape of assistant volunteer thought police and self-appointed commisars purging one another, and I wouldn't be surprised to see other parts of publishing be similarly broken. So is there an opening for some other publisher to eat their lunch, a la Substack, by just offering book deals to people writing books that appeal heavily to men and cover more masculine and conservative themes?

    Replies: @kaganovitch

  123. @Abe
    @Nicholas Stix


    I don’t understand what Joyce Carol Oates is all about
     
    “The 3 saddest words in the English language are Joyce Carol Oates” - Gore Vidal

    Ambitious, girl boss, most-qualified-Presidential-candidate-in-history Tracy Flick/Hillary types are to the average, nice middle class beta male with an artsy bent what great white sharks are to sea otters. The average b!tchy gay male with even a modicum of verbal flair is to these Tracy Flick/Hillary/Lisa Simpson types what an orca whale is to the great white.

    Replies: @JimDandy

    Which of the three are you?

  124. V.S. Naipaul famously/notoriously said that he could read a few paragraphs of a writer and tell you whether it was written by a man or a woman. Assuming he is correct, a cofactor in the bias is a bias against a particular style of writing; something so subtle you really can’t put your finger on it but you know it’s there. And similarly, when I am reading letters to the editor of the Wall Street Journal, I am pretty sure that I can often tell when it is written by a Jewish writer even before I read the name of the writer; there is something rabbinical about it.

    • Replies: @Tex
    @SafeNow


    V.S. Naipaul famously/notoriously said that he could read a few paragraphs of a writer and tell you whether it was written by a man or a woman.
     
    It's not too hard to spot, particularly if the writer is relatively inexperienced. New writers channel their style less self-consciously. If you've seen the meme of the man and woman in bed with the woman's thought balloon an extended list of relationship issues the man might be thinking about while the man's thoughts are about his motorcycle's carburetor, then you've pretty much got the basics of how men's and women's fiction tends to differ.

    For instance, read some Raymond Chandler, then read Leigh Brackett's No Good From a Corpse, a pastiche of Chandler by the as-yet new Brackett. Philip Marlowe's interior thoughts are guy's thoughts, about the case, about political and social norms that impact his work, about trying to retain dignity in the face of corruption and deceit. Brackett's PI wonders what his friends are feeling. I laughed the PI was such a chick with a guy's name.

    The thing is Brackett developed a lot. She is in fact one of the finest writers of Golden Age SF. She could mix up Chandler's style with Edgar Rice Burrough's and make the planet Mars a glorious stage for adventures worthy of a John Ford Western.

    It's not that women writers are bad (90% of everything is crap after all) but different. But who wants to hear that nowadays?

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob, @Anon

  125. @LadyTheo
    Every book-pushing email I get from Amazon features nothing but female writers. I delete them all. Female writers bore me, for the most part. And I just refuse to participate in this "women good; white men bad" charade. Further, spare me the "gay black" author of any sex--if I never hear another word about homosexuals, I will be a happy camper. And blacks. These people have worn out their welcome with a lot of us.

    I don't read much "literature" these days--I have too much on my mind to lend neurons to "profundity." What I want is escape--and I get that mostly from...white, male authors. Thank the Lord for Jack Carr, et al.

    Replies: @Anon, @Director95, @Kylie

    Most female writers bore me, too. There are a few exceptions.

    I do like Megan Abbott. She writes crime fiction with female protagonists who vye for power–but not in the usual trite ways of, say, “beach reads”. Very idiosyncratic . Liked Dare Me and You Will Know Me enough to buy them after I read them free online.

    Tana French and Denise Mina have each written one crime novel (Broken Harbor and The End of the Wasp Season) that I thought was very good, in both cases about disintegrating families.

    I’m reading Ross Macdonald for escape.

    Were you the one who recommended Symphony for the City of the Dead to me? If so, many thanks, it was very good

  126. @Steve Sailer
    @Cagey Beast

    Right, progressivism was likely existent by the time of the English Civil War in 1647:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putney_Debates

    I wouldn't be surprised if the ideology was existent in Shakespeare's time around 1600, but that we underestimate it back then because Shakespeare didn't exhibit much of it.

    Replies: @S Johnson, @JimDandy, @Bill P, @Hibernian, @Prester John

  127. @Steve Sailer
    @Anonymous

    I'm a little vague on which of these now famous novelists were considered literary writers during their own time. Hammett, Chandler, and Cain are now major figures in American letters, but at the time they were considered more as successful pulp writers who happened to inspire classic movies. Fitzgerald was a huge celebrity in the 1920s, but was he considered a literary writer at the time?

    My impression is Hemingway was considered an important literary innovator from the late 1920s onward. Hemingway's connection to high art modernist types in Paris like Ezra Pound and Gertrude Stein assured that from the beginning he wasn't considered a pulp writer, even though the ease with which he could be read and his manly subject matter might otherwise suggest he was. The young Evelyn Waugh, a very self-consciously elitist modernist, always saw Hemingway as the giant who once and for all killed the ornate Victorian prose style that Waugh despised.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Mark G., @JimDandy, @mousey, @Chriscom, @njguy73, @Anon

    Then there is the more recent ones.

    Neal Stephenson
    George R. R. Martin
    David Gunn
    Jack Campbell

  128. Anonymous[123] • Disclaimer says:

    Of course, this is a succinct explanation as you will ever find for explaining why modern novels are, quite frankly, crap, and of little to no literary value.

  129. @Steve Sailer
    @J.Ross

    Sally Rooney is talked about and likely read.

    Replies: @JimDandy

    That’s because Sally Rooney is a pretty good writer of contemporary fiction, which makes her an exceptional woman writer of contemporary fiction.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @JimDandy

    Right. The pattern is that these idiots come out of academia, academia is the closest thing to a proper life experience any of them know, and in academia the whole game is the opposite of how publishing should work: status comes from having the rarest pokemon nobody had heard of before, not picking a popular winner or responsibly representing a topic.

  130. The Woke don’t seem all that aware of how sexual reproduction works.

    How many times have you seen it written that “Becca is descended from a long line of women who overcame [insert type of oppression here.]” ?

    This is doubly true if Becca is Black. Her white slave owner forefathers are completely discounted, even if Becca is 75% white and looks it. ESPECIALLY if Becca is 75% white and looks it. Becca, while she has no knowledge of what actually went on, just assumes that the master must have raped her female ancestors because no other type of relationship between the races was possible.

    • Replies: @Nicholas Stix
    @Jack D

    I believe that that fairy tale about the master going into the slave quarters and raping the girl slaves was made up in the blaxploitation 1970s. The late historian Eugene Genovese maintained that most mullatoes were initially conceived after emancipation through black prostitutes who sold themselves to White Johns. However, I believe that just as many were the products of black-on-White rapes, prior to abortion being legalized. Interracial rape has always been overwhelmingly black-on-White.

    Replies: @Jack D

  131. @Anon
    Fiction publishing became hard for anybody to break into of whatever gender back in the 1980s onward when the Baby Boom generation all decided to try their hand at novels, and publishers became flooded with manuscripts like never before. It got to the point where publishers would only look at a query from a new writer, not a manuscript. Then it got to the point where they didn't even want unsolicited queries. You had to know somebody to even get your query looked at. Genuine talent was locked out unless you knew somebody.

    Then self-publishing came along and gave unknown authors a way to get published. However, it meant the good authors became lost in the huge mass of bad self-published authors. Good authors still have a very hard time getting noticed because there's too much to wade through.

    Meanwhile, the whole fiction genre became a worse economic deal for authors. Contracts became a lot nastier to authors (and more in favor of the publisher). Most first-time fiction authors today get no advance at all. Most first novels by first-time authors do not sell well enough to even pay their print costs. Therefore, the average pay for a first novel is zero because the costs have to be paid off before you see royalties. Most authors are bound by contracts forbidding them to talk about this, or too humiliated to mention how badly their book sold. Most first-time fiction authors are dropped by their publisher after the first book bombs, which most of them do.

    What men have done instead of publishing fiction, is blog or make Youtube videos about everything under the sun. The opportunities to guy away about guy stuff is massive, and that's what men do. Blogging gives you an instant audience and prestige, and that's what a lot of fiction authors wanted in the first place, fame and and prestige.

    Youtube pays around $2000-3000 per million views. That may not sound like much, but I keep coming across videos from men guying away who have view counts in the 100,000-900,000 range, meaning they are making more money doing that than trying to publish first novels.

    There's another important point here that's been overlooked. Nonfiction before 1980 didn't used to sell so well, and that's because it wasn't very good. The vast majority of nonfiction in any nonfiction genre written before 1970 or so is poor quality stuff. But then the white boomer males started going to college in large numbers in the 1960s, and they gave our population a huge mass of educated males for the very first time. This generation of men started writing and publishing nonfiction in the 1980s, and from that point onward they created a huge explosion of high-quality nonfiction. There was a Renaissance in just about every genre of nonfiction, a Renaissance that nobody seems to be aware of because nobody's pointed it out. It's only when you compare nonfiction being written today to nonfiction pre-1970 that you become aware of the massive quality gap. Nonfiction is more lucrative today for most male writers than fiction.

    As for the publishers themselves, they just found out earlier that it's cheaper to pay for female editors who will work for peanuts, just the way a later generation of newspaper owners realized it was cheaper to pay for female writers because they would work for peanuts. But this does tend to make what is produced by these writers almost exclusively of female interest.

    Replies: @prosa123

    A bit of perspective ….

    Number of people in the entire US who make a full time living as book authors: c. 5,000.

    Number of employees at the Tesla Gigafactory in Texas: 20,000.

  132. @HammerJack

    The Woke don’t seem all that aware of how sexual reproduction works. For example, I get the impression that they think young white male authors deserve to pay because they are descended from men, while women authors are only descended from women, not from icky men.
     
    The Woke are notorious for not wanting to be bothered with the details, particularly when the details (i.e. facts) conflict with they feelz.

    This is why they're capable of believing so many ridiculous things, and (not unrelated) why they're particularly susceptible to mass-media propaganda.

    Replies: @ADL Pyramid of Hate, @Gordo

    If by “The Woke,” you mean women and feminized men, I concur.

    Excuse me, I mean: “I don’t like how your contention makes me FEEL, so it’s not true.”

  133. @Dave Pinsen

    “I was having a meeting the other day with yet another 28-year-old woman,” he continues. “I always ask editors, ‘What are you looking for’, and she happened to say, ‘What I really want is a generational family drama’. I said, ‘Oh, like The Corrections by Jonathan Franzen?’ and honestly, you would think I’d said Mein Kampf. She said, ‘No! Nothing like that!’. And I thought, ‘But that’s literally what you’ve described!’”
     
    Has there ever been a profession that became better when dominated by women? Maybe nursing, but a woman kind of invented it.

    The Corrections by Jonathan Franzen is probably better than anything a woman has written this century. Franzen's ambition in writing it was to write a literary novel that was also a page-turner, and he succeeded.

    Franzen's subsequent novel, Freedom, might be the best American novel to describe the aughts. A lot of the hatred toward him is purely envy.

    An example of the female-dominated publishing industry's failure: a writer named Kristen Roupenian got her short story called "Cat Person" published in the New Yorker a few years ago. It was a pretty good story, about a college girl's brief relationship with an older, socially and sexually awkward man (he takes the girl to a Holocaust movie on their first date), and it resonated with women and went viral. As a result of that, Roupenian got a 7-figure advance for writing a book of short stories, which got outsold by the self-published psuedonymous author "Delicious Tacos".

    I haven't bought any of Tacos' books, because I think I'd find them too depressing, but some of the stories of his I've read have been great. One example is Autopilot, which starts with a similar premise as the Ben Stiller prestige TV show "Severance", but is much pithier and funnier.

    Replies: @JimDandy, @Almost Missouri, @martin_2, @Rodger Dodger, @Jack D, @JimDandy, @James J. O'Meara

    One example is Autopilot, which starts with a similar premise as the Ben Stiller prestige TV show “Severance”, but is much pithier and funnier.

    “Ben Stiller” and “prestige” are not words that I would typically use together in the same sentence. But to be fair that’s based on his acting work, which is…not my cup of tea.

  134. It’s a rotten state of affairs.

    That said, recall the hopeful case of “Carmen Mola” …

    “Female Spanish Writer Who Won Million-Euro Prize Revealed to Be 3 Men Writing Under Pseudonym”
    https://people.com/human-interest/female-spanish-writer-revealed-to-be-3-men-writing-under-pseudonym/
    “Carmen Mola is not, like all the lies we’ve been telling, a university professor,” … “We are three friends who one day four years ago decided to combine our talent to tell a story.”
    “The revelation about the Spanish author has been met with some criticism. ​Beatriz Gimeno — a former director of Spain’s Women’s Institute, a governmental institution working towards gender equality — called Martínez, Díaz and Mercero ‘scammers.’”

  135. Tex says:
    @Adept
    Science fiction is traditionally a men's genre, and, by some accounts, it's now the only genre of fiction with more male than female readership.

    With that in mind, take a look at major SF publisher Tor's "most anticipated SF books for the rest of 2022":

    https://www.tor.com/2022/07/19/the-30-most-anticipated-sff-books-for-the-rest-of-2022/

    It's 100% chick lit and >90% of it was written by female authors. And most of it is talcum-soft "science fiction" or outright fantasy. None of it is anything like Heinlein, Asimov, or Clarke.

    New authors at the major SF publishing houses skew female bigtime. There can be no doubt that male hopefuls are being discriminated against.

    These days, in truth, high-quality science fiction is hardly written by Americans at all. Fortunately some white male British authors are still active -- Stephen Baxter, Alastair Reynolds, Ken MacLeod, Paul Macauley, etc.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Dan Smith, @possumman, @Tex

    Tor was an early and enthusiastic adopter of woke ideology. In the Aughts many online kerfluffles centered around the usual woke obsessions. Tor sort of catered to those, at least Tor editors Patrick and Teresa Neilson Hayden did.

    The other thing Tor did is was to leverage their influence to constantly win awards, Hugos & Nebulas. The Sad Puppies and Rabid Puppies were a reaction to that. The crowing about how no men were nominated for Nebulas for one cycle in the Teens (IIRC the award and date) was particularly over the top and energized a lot of Puppies.

  136. Abe says:

    Women wrote between 31% and 41% in the first four decades, before dropping with coming of WWII (which I’m guessing provided men with lots of great material).

    Bingo! Hemingway was not a vet I think, but was vet-adjacent (volunteer ambulance driver in WWI, possibly had some involvement in the Spanish Civil War, I forget; Orwell was on the ground in the latter though). Mailer, Heller, Wouk were WWII vets, as was Salinger, who had the “luck” to see action at the heaviest American land engagements of the entire war. Vonnegut was also a vet, and present (as a POW) during the firebombing of Dresden. Heinlein and Asimov worked as military contractors during the war, conducive to imaging world-shattering doomsday devices.

    Roth did not see action in combat but was enlisted and served in the same unit as Elvis (OK, I made that part up). Plus he was near sex-criminal in disposition (the parts about stalking the streets of New York to accost fresh, unsuspecting [email protected] in PORTNOY’S COMPLAINT are almost certainly autobiographical, as he admits to even worse stuff in his authorized biography- having the head of the UPenn(?) creative writing program feed him fresh coeds each semester, insisting on the right to try and [email protected] his step-daughter’s friends, etc.). Mailer, Bukowski, Hunter Thompson, Robert Crumb were also of this same outlaw, sexual deviant semi-criminal cloth.

    Gen-X and on writers are pretty weak tea by comparison. I will definitely give Franzen a serious go now thanks to Dave Pinsen’s well-spoken praise above, but trying to get through THE CORRECTIONS I was stopped cold by the opening chapter’s attempt to mine literary gold from the belittlement of ordinary middle class people (they clip a lot of coupons, the swine!)

    Rick Moody, Michael Chabon, Dave Eggers, Brett Easton Ellis, David Foster Wallace, Jonathan Lethem, Nick Hornby, Jonathan Saran Foer, etc. have collectively almost 0 in the way of vital lived male experience as far as I know. Though ICE STORM was very good, the rest of Moody’s work was incredibly navel-gazing and to add to the problem a lot of these straight male creators (and here I can add director Kevin Smith, white adjacent Junot Diaz, the guy who created THE OC) started to unashamedly geek out to their comic books/Dungeons & Dragons inner man-childs at the start of the 2000’s, obliterating whatever vestiges of masculine mystique they may have enjoyed. To paraphrase Oliver Wendell Holmes, a single generation of Rick Moody’s is enough!

    • Replies: @JimDandy
    @Abe

    Junot Diaz retained some vestiges of his masculine mystique, which is why he was soft-cancelled during the literary world's #Metoo purges, along with fellow straight male POC icon Sherman Alexie.

    , @prosa123
    @Abe

    Roth did not see action in combat but was enlisted and served in the same unit as Elvis (OK, I made that part up). Plus he was near sex-criminal in disposition (the parts about stalking the streets of New York to accost fresh, unsuspecting [email protected] in PORTNOY’S COMPLAINT are almost certainly autobiographical

    Is the part about him Doing the Dirty Deed with a piece of liver his family later ate also autobiographical?

    Replies: @SFG, @Abe

    , @Jack D
    @Abe


    Roth did not see action in combat but was enlisted and served in the same unit as Elvis (OK, I made that part up).
     
    You sure did. One of the things that the Vietnam generation especially did not understand about the Army is that the Army really needs people who can write a complete sentence and type and so on (the Army runs on paperwork, or did in the pre-digital age), so if you have some special skill they are not just going to hand you an M-16 and send you to the jungle.

    This is how Roth spoke of his military service:


    I was in the Public Information Office of Walter Reed Hospital in Washington. And my job was to go out into the wards and get information about soldiers newly arrived who were injured ... and then write a little press release for their hometown paper.

    They had a lot of amputees at Walter Reed ... and so I went out on the wards, and I talked to these guys. It was sad, as you can imagine. This was just after the Korean War. ... I'd go down to PT with them — physical therapy — and watch them learning to walk on the parallel bars and so on. ... The pathos was overwhelming.
     

    Roth used this experience to create the character of the amputee war veteran cousin who comes to live with his family in The Plot Against America.

    Plus he was near sex-criminal in disposition
     

    Only by Current Year standards. Yes nowadays it would be a hanging offense for a literature professor to sleep with the undergrads, but in those days it was considered completely normal. In fact the girls would COMPETE with each other to see which one(s) would get to sleep with the famous author who was a rock star in intellectual circles. He didn't have to coerce these women - they threw themselves at him. They were honored to be picked (or if they weren't they didn't have to). He wasn't going to pick the dumb ones or the fat ones or the ugly ones. Those so honored would have to look good AND be capable of carrying on an intellectual conversation about literature.

    Replies: @Alden, @David In TN

    , @Dave Pinsen
    @Abe


    Rick Moody, Michael Chabon, Dave Eggers, Brett Easton Ellis, David Foster Wallace, Jonathan Lethem, Nick Hornby, Jonathan Saran Foer, etc. have collectively almost 0 in the way of vital lived male experience as far as I know.
     
    I'll comment on the authors you've mentioned that I've read.

    Michael Chabon spends so much time writing gay characters that gays used to think he was one of them. His "The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier & Clay" is actually pretty good though. "The Yiddish Policeman's Union" isn't bad. Currently, I think Chabon is working in TV, where he is making Star Trek awful (Unz had an excellent post on that, btw).

    Brett Easton Ellis is actually gay, which I only discovered recently. I had read his Less Than Zero in the '80s, and finally read another of his novels a year ago. Thread on that here:

    https://twitter.com/dpinsen/status/1411099735046381571?s=20&t=dUYZ0A5FzwzNSYN3ybVXMw

    Jonathan Saran Foer's debut novel Everything Is Illuminated got a rave review from Joyce Carol Oates in the NYT Book Review, IIRC. I read it based on that and was extremely underwhelmed. Later, I read that he had plagiarized the only creative part of it, a magic realist dictionary, from an Israeli novelist. John Updike panned his next novel, as I recall. Probably the most entertaining thing Foer has written was a series of emails to Natalie Portman, who spurned his advances.

    Replies: @Peter Akuleyev

  137. @Jack D

    The Woke don’t seem all that aware of how sexual reproduction works.
     
    How many times have you seen it written that "Becca is descended from a long line of women who overcame [insert type of oppression here.]" ?

    This is doubly true if Becca is Black. Her white slave owner forefathers are completely discounted, even if Becca is 75% white and looks it. ESPECIALLY if Becca is 75% white and looks it. Becca, while she has no knowledge of what actually went on, just assumes that the master must have raped her female ancestors because no other type of relationship between the races was possible.

    Replies: @Nicholas Stix

    I believe that that fairy tale about the master going into the slave quarters and raping the girl slaves was made up in the blaxploitation 1970s. The late historian Eugene Genovese maintained that most mullatoes were initially conceived after emancipation through black prostitutes who sold themselves to White Johns. However, I believe that just as many were the products of black-on-White rapes, prior to abortion being legalized. Interracial rape has always been overwhelmingly black-on-White.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Nicholas Stix

    I'm not so sure that is correct either. However, consensual relationships (black women as the concubines of their white masters) were quite common (and have been in all slave societies). Either the master would have a second (or more), black family on the side, in parallel to his white family (the white family might or might not know about their black half-siblings but even if they knew it was not something to be discussed or acknowledged outside of the family - within the family it might be completely accepted and taken for granted. Sometimes the white wife was OK with this, sometimes less so) or else maybe the white guy was a widower and the slave concubine became his wife for all intents and purposes except for legal status. BTW, I have known several white men who have had secret 2nd (white) families - often this only comes out after the man dies. Monogamy is not really the human norm. Sometimes masters treated their black children very well and had them educated as much as possible or set them up in trades. Others less so.

    You couldn't really consider this to be prostitution (or rape) except in the sense that all female/male relationship are prostitution (or rape). There are many (historically most) relationships where the male has greater income or power because historically most women had neither.

    Another typical relationship was between black slaves and indentured servants (of either sex). The status of indentured servants was not much different than that of slaves, except that their "slavery" was for a limited period while slaves served a "life sentence", so relationships between them were common. Some black male slaves had access to income - Washington's chef, Hercules, had a deal where he was allowed to sell the leftovers from Washington's kitchen in Philadelphia and thus considerable cash income. He was a sharp dresser and popular among the (white) servant girls.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @AnotherDad, @Nicholas Stix, @Bardon Kaldlan

  138. @Abe

    Women wrote between 31% and 41% in the first four decades, before dropping with coming of WWII (which I’m guessing provided men with lots of great material).
     
    Bingo! Hemingway was not a vet I think, but was vet-adjacent (volunteer ambulance driver in WWI, possibly had some involvement in the Spanish Civil War, I forget; Orwell was on the ground in the latter though). Mailer, Heller, Wouk were WWII vets, as was Salinger, who had the “luck” to see action at the heaviest American land engagements of the entire war. Vonnegut was also a vet, and present (as a POW) during the firebombing of Dresden. Heinlein and Asimov worked as military contractors during the war, conducive to imaging world-shattering doomsday devices.

    Roth did not see action in combat but was enlisted and served in the same unit as Elvis (OK, I made that part up). Plus he was near sex-criminal in disposition (the parts about stalking the streets of New York to accost fresh, unsuspecting [email protected] in PORTNOY’S COMPLAINT are almost certainly autobiographical, as he admits to even worse stuff in his authorized biography- having the head of the UPenn(?) creative writing program feed him fresh coeds each semester, insisting on the right to try and [email protected] his step-daughter’s friends, etc.). Mailer, Bukowski, Hunter Thompson, Robert Crumb were also of this same outlaw, sexual deviant semi-criminal cloth.

    Gen-X and on writers are pretty weak tea by comparison. I will definitely give Franzen a serious go now thanks to Dave Pinsen’s well-spoken praise above, but trying to get through THE CORRECTIONS I was stopped cold by the opening chapter’s attempt to mine literary gold from the belittlement of ordinary middle class people (they clip a lot of coupons, the swine!)

    Rick Moody, Michael Chabon, Dave Eggers, Brett Easton Ellis, David Foster Wallace, Jonathan Lethem, Nick Hornby, Jonathan Saran Foer, etc. have collectively almost 0 in the way of vital lived male experience as far as I know. Though ICE STORM was very good, the rest of Moody’s work was incredibly navel-gazing and to add to the problem a lot of these straight male creators (and here I can add director Kevin Smith, white adjacent Junot Diaz, the guy who created THE OC) started to unashamedly geek out to their comic books/Dungeons & Dragons inner man-childs at the start of the 2000’s, obliterating whatever vestiges of masculine mystique they may have enjoyed. To paraphrase Oliver Wendell Holmes, a single generation of Rick Moody’s is enough!

    Replies: @JimDandy, @prosa123, @Jack D, @Dave Pinsen

    Junot Diaz retained some vestiges of his masculine mystique, which is why he was soft-cancelled during the literary world’s #Metoo purges, along with fellow straight male POC icon Sherman Alexie.

  139. @Jonathan Mason
    There have always been female novelists, but in the beginning most of them had to use male pseudonyms.

    At the start Jane Austen, Emily Bronte, and George Eliot all used male pseudonyms. In fact the three Bronte sisters used the names Acton, Currer, and Ellis Bell so is to keep things tidy.

    Maybe the time has now come for young male novelists to use female names like Tabitha Trollope, Diane Dickens, Edwina Eliot, or Rowena Rowling to get their foot in the door.

    However let's not forget that in the 19th century and the first part of the 20th century, there were no movies or TV or videos, and the novel was the primary form of fictional home entertainment and often published in installments.

    The novel has now been overtaken by other technologies, and the best male storytellers are making movies.

    The literary novel is now just a niche market and not a mass phenomenon and is probably consumed as much in podcasts as in paper form. Also public libraries are very much in decline compared to the days of my youth.

    Replies: @Tex, @Ghddghh, @John Pepple

    Also public libraries are very much in decline compared to the days of my youth.

    Sad but true. Libraries were once the best possible place to take a youngster. That’s not so much true when the place is a de facto homeless shelter.

  140. @Muggles
    Of course the Comrades will whine about the usual stuff that Intersectional Marxism whines about. That varies depending on the intended audience.

    The racial and sexual ("gender') quota system and discrimination against White males (esp. non Jewish) is celebrated as "progress" not condemned as bigotry.

    What does the book buying marketplace say about this?

    On factor is that probably close to 90% of all "librarians" these days are women. So they undoubtedly favor their trendy female/queer authors. Particularly in academic settings where anti White Male bigotry is part of their daily mantra.

    Excluding institutional purchasers, I suspect more females buy novels than men do. Especially the non genre novels (excluding sci fi, action/adventure/police, fantasy, etc.). Of course trashy and formula "romance" novels sell well, mainly to women. The pulp paperback section in used bookstores is full of bodice rippers for gals.

    As for serious novelists, they are coming out of lit/English academia as well. But some will manage to produce readable fiction about interesting male characters. And women as well.

    I suspect non Whites buy relatively few books of any kind. Men tend to be more workplace engaged until retirement, so again, females probably lead males. Once kids are in school, mostly, there is a lot of "book club/Chardonnay" readers and Oprah book club followers.

    There are a mere handful of lit "critics" who act as gatekeepers for publishers. Very few are "real men" who have held jobs in difficult fields (sailors, soldiers, construction, mining, police, etc.) and instead are more effete types, probably more gay than average. The Hemingway novelist is long gone.

    I suspect the sales of "serious" novels is in the low thousands, usually. The Woke values have to be pushed onto consumers from above. Even then, few are buying.

    Prior to radio, TV, video, and Internet, book reading was a major leisure past-time. Now it is comic book "films" and cell phone lit bits which can be read when doing other things. Most successful authors develop characters who serve as continuing features of book series.

    I suspect the "publishing industry" is hustling the rubes and pretending that is High Art for The Mind. Nope.

    For the lower classes, there are few if any magazines at home and no books. Thanks to corruption of the educational system, a vast population of semi literate people prefer to "watch" rather than read. Watching is pre-digested for them, reading requires vocabulary and mental architecture.

    Publishers preen and strut, hoping you think they are producing fine dining for the mind. In reality they are dishing out barely intelligible cafeteria dreck, requiring few if any brain cells to fire up.

    Like in the former USSR, we are in the age of self-censoring mediocrity pushing status symbol unread "literature" and making money off everything else.

    Replies: @Jack D, @NOTA

    I suspect more females buy novels than men do.

    I think this has been true for at least a century. If you read Hemingway’s wikipedia article, there is this passage:

    Cleonike Damianakes illustrated the dust jacket [of The Sun Also Rises] with a Hellenistic design of a seated, robed woman, her head bent to her shoulder, eyes closed, one hand holding an apple, her shoulders and a thigh exposed. Editor Maxwell Perkins intended “Cleon’s respectably sexy”design to attract “the feminine readers who control the destinies of so many novels“.

    Damianakes (aka “Cleon”) was a female artist whose art combined elements of Greek classicism with Art Deco style. Her cover for a Farewell to Arms was even more explicitly sexual. It portrays Venus (in the form of a winged angel) and Mars. Venus is completely nude except for some red feathers draped across her nether regions. Mars has sixpack muscles and they both look like they just finished “doing it” – the only thing missing is that they are not smoking cigarettes. They got away with this in the Roaring ’20s but this level of explicit sexuality wouldn’t be seen again until the 1960s. Hemingway himself was not a fan but Perkins knew what he was doing – the book was a bestseller.

  141. @martin_2
    @Dave Pinsen


    he takes the girl to a Holocaust movie on their first date
     
    That's nothing. I took a girl to a cemetary on our first date.

    Replies: @Kylie, @SFG, @JimDandy, @Jim Don Bob, @kaganovitch, @tyrone, @peterike, @Right_On

    “I took a girl to a cemetary on our first date.”

    When my husband suggested I pick a movie for a celebration, I picked Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer.

    As to the short story, “Cat Person”, I thought it was a smug, ugly hit piece of misandry. I found it appalling.

  142. @Abe

    Women wrote between 31% and 41% in the first four decades, before dropping with coming of WWII (which I’m guessing provided men with lots of great material).
     
    Bingo! Hemingway was not a vet I think, but was vet-adjacent (volunteer ambulance driver in WWI, possibly had some involvement in the Spanish Civil War, I forget; Orwell was on the ground in the latter though). Mailer, Heller, Wouk were WWII vets, as was Salinger, who had the “luck” to see action at the heaviest American land engagements of the entire war. Vonnegut was also a vet, and present (as a POW) during the firebombing of Dresden. Heinlein and Asimov worked as military contractors during the war, conducive to imaging world-shattering doomsday devices.

    Roth did not see action in combat but was enlisted and served in the same unit as Elvis (OK, I made that part up). Plus he was near sex-criminal in disposition (the parts about stalking the streets of New York to accost fresh, unsuspecting [email protected] in PORTNOY’S COMPLAINT are almost certainly autobiographical, as he admits to even worse stuff in his authorized biography- having the head of the UPenn(?) creative writing program feed him fresh coeds each semester, insisting on the right to try and [email protected] his step-daughter’s friends, etc.). Mailer, Bukowski, Hunter Thompson, Robert Crumb were also of this same outlaw, sexual deviant semi-criminal cloth.

    Gen-X and on writers are pretty weak tea by comparison. I will definitely give Franzen a serious go now thanks to Dave Pinsen’s well-spoken praise above, but trying to get through THE CORRECTIONS I was stopped cold by the opening chapter’s attempt to mine literary gold from the belittlement of ordinary middle class people (they clip a lot of coupons, the swine!)

    Rick Moody, Michael Chabon, Dave Eggers, Brett Easton Ellis, David Foster Wallace, Jonathan Lethem, Nick Hornby, Jonathan Saran Foer, etc. have collectively almost 0 in the way of vital lived male experience as far as I know. Though ICE STORM was very good, the rest of Moody’s work was incredibly navel-gazing and to add to the problem a lot of these straight male creators (and here I can add director Kevin Smith, white adjacent Junot Diaz, the guy who created THE OC) started to unashamedly geek out to their comic books/Dungeons & Dragons inner man-childs at the start of the 2000’s, obliterating whatever vestiges of masculine mystique they may have enjoyed. To paraphrase Oliver Wendell Holmes, a single generation of Rick Moody’s is enough!

    Replies: @JimDandy, @prosa123, @Jack D, @Dave Pinsen

    Roth did not see action in combat but was enlisted and served in the same unit as Elvis (OK, I made that part up). Plus he was near sex-criminal in disposition (the parts about stalking the streets of New York to accost fresh, unsuspecting [email protected] in PORTNOY’S COMPLAINT are almost certainly autobiographical

    Is the part about him Doing the Dirty Deed with a piece of liver his family later ate also autobiographical?

    • Replies: @SFG
    @prosa123

    Probably. Better than apple pie I guess.

    , @Abe
    @prosa123


    Is the part about him Doing the Dirty Deed with a piece of liver his family later ate also autobiographical?
     
    The Diceman worked that part into his act. Didn’t know he was such a connoisseur of literary fiction!

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BWzI_Wn0ZwM&t=6m59s

    Replies: @Malcolm X-Lax

  143. Feminism, in which we’re all swimmin’,
    means all novels are written by women
    (that’s if “women” includes
    all the pussified dudes),
    and their novels ain’t even worth skimmin’.

  144. @astrolabe
    @Thoughts


    The truth is, men write better books
     
    I can't agree with this. Men and women have different strengths as writers, and a lot of men prefer books by men, but I don't think it's fair to say this difference is due to quality. Maybe the situation is similar with black and white musicians. The idea that essentially all intellectual abilities are explained by a one dimensional g-factor is clearly wrong to me.

    Replies: @SFG

    The arts aren’t that heavily g-loaded. Geniuses often have difficulty relating to people well, making it hard to write about them.

  145. @martin_2
    @Dave Pinsen


    he takes the girl to a Holocaust movie on their first date
     
    That's nothing. I took a girl to a cemetary on our first date.

    Replies: @Kylie, @SFG, @JimDandy, @Jim Don Bob, @kaganovitch, @tyrone, @peterike, @Right_On

    Was she a goth?

    • LOL: Bardon Kaldian
  146. @Nicholas Stix
    @Jack D

    I believe that that fairy tale about the master going into the slave quarters and raping the girl slaves was made up in the blaxploitation 1970s. The late historian Eugene Genovese maintained that most mullatoes were initially conceived after emancipation through black prostitutes who sold themselves to White Johns. However, I believe that just as many were the products of black-on-White rapes, prior to abortion being legalized. Interracial rape has always been overwhelmingly black-on-White.

    Replies: @Jack D

    I’m not so sure that is correct either. However, consensual relationships (black women as the concubines of their white masters) were quite common (and have been in all slave societies). Either the master would have a second (or more), black family on the side, in parallel to his white family (the white family might or might not know about their black half-siblings but even if they knew it was not something to be discussed or acknowledged outside of the family – within the family it might be completely accepted and taken for granted. Sometimes the white wife was OK with this, sometimes less so) or else maybe the white guy was a widower and the slave concubine became his wife for all intents and purposes except for legal status. BTW, I have known several white men who have had secret 2nd (white) families – often this only comes out after the man dies. Monogamy is not really the human norm. Sometimes masters treated their black children very well and had them educated as much as possible or set them up in trades. Others less so.

    You couldn’t really consider this to be prostitution (or rape) except in the sense that all female/male relationship are prostitution (or rape). There are many (historically most) relationships where the male has greater income or power because historically most women had neither.

    Another typical relationship was between black slaves and indentured servants (of either sex). The status of indentured servants was not much different than that of slaves, except that their “slavery” was for a limited period while slaves served a “life sentence”, so relationships between them were common. Some black male slaves had access to income – Washington’s chef, Hercules, had a deal where he was allowed to sell the leftovers from Washington’s kitchen in Philadelphia and thus considerable cash income. He was a sharp dresser and popular among the (white) servant girls.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Jack D

    Monogamy is not really the human norm.

    Yes it is.

    Replies: @J.Ross

    , @AnotherDad
    @Jack D

    Another element to understand is that in the early 19th century much of what's now "the South" was frontier--and a frontier that was hot, buggy and disease ridden. And like much "frontier" short of women.

    My understanding--could easily be flawed--is that there was a chronic shortage of women as you went West. So while a successful planter or businessman might bring along, or go back and acquire, an appropriate white woman as his wife, many working men--say a skilled laborer like a blacksmith or wheelwright would not have a wife. But they might be able to bring along (or acquire) a black slave housekeeper/cook ... and nature would take its course.

    There's nothing unseemly about such relationships--men and women being complementary. No doubt many such relationships developed real love and affection. And only to modern "oppression!" ideology are such things "problematic".

    , @Nicholas Stix
    @Jack D


    However, consensual relationships (black women as the concubines of their white masters) were quite common (and have been in all slave societies).
     
    That, too, thanks. I was responding to the institutionalized myth of White-on-black rape as the source of mullatoes.
    , @Bardon Kaldlan
    @Jack D

    I can't source this,as I read it about twenty years ago,but I recall a book about blacks in America that states very clearly that the vast majority of white male admixture came about after slavery.
    A lot of that may well be prostitution,as blacks and whites both were left impoverished.
    But some may be simple normal sex and marriage.
    One source for this may be Irish immigrants.
    The South,due to bigotry(?) or just plain stupidity,did not seem to seek Irish immigrants. Perhaps they didn't want to be polluted by an inferior people?
    The North had no such compunctions,and eagerly sought immigrants. They won the War before it even started.
    The record of the Irish soldier is stunning. The Southern Catholic Irish soldier was even more of a mad dog,surely the most fearsome Americans that ever fought in any war. Many was the battle where Johnny Reb ( that's reb,not rebbe😉) was held back,perhaps pressing wild flowers,while the Irish regiments poured in.
    Audy Murphy probably came from such people.
    Anyway,after the war what did the Irish have? Bupkus. To get even the most rotten laborers job would be a godsend.
    The Irish, I'm guessing, were very man-heavy in the South. I again,surmise that there were black women,in dire straits,who were available. It was not rape,but simply marriage.
    Interesting that jazz seemed to be borne out of New Orleans. What is the Southern city most associated with Irish? N. O. of course.
    I think the music of the Irish laid the groundwork for that most American music.
    Obviously, there were many American born men in the same position and had kids with black women.

    As for the " Master" doing the Mic Jagger bit,its doubtful. Slaves were,relatively, treated pretty well. Slaves talked. If a Master,or his son,or brother,as in Jefferson,liked Brown Sugar,this was shared among the slaves. Word got back to the white community. The man was deemed a pig and a fool for indulging.

  147. @Dave Pinsen
    @Anonymous


    Men have so many more exciting forms of entertainment these days that there isn’t much demand for non-girly literature.
     
    A great book is the peak form of entertainment if you can read. It’s multiple hours of being fully engrossed in a story. When I read Crichton’s Jurassic Park, I put it down a single time to use the bathroom. Years later, I saw the movie, and while I was impressed by the technical achievement of it, it didn’t compare to the experience of reading the book.

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob

    I read Tom Clancy’s Red Storm Rising in a complete sitting.

  148. @prosa123
    @Abe

    Roth did not see action in combat but was enlisted and served in the same unit as Elvis (OK, I made that part up). Plus he was near sex-criminal in disposition (the parts about stalking the streets of New York to accost fresh, unsuspecting [email protected] in PORTNOY’S COMPLAINT are almost certainly autobiographical

    Is the part about him Doing the Dirty Deed with a piece of liver his family later ate also autobiographical?

    Replies: @SFG, @Abe

    Probably. Better than apple pie I guess.

  149. @Jimmy1969
    Young white male Christian Authors ...not Jews. A supercial canvass of the new book section of my public library where you first walk in: Sympathetic Bio of George Floyd.....Bio of Hillary Clinton...2 hate books against Trump...couple books about LGBTQ stuff, one on all the bad things we did to the Indians...another how great Israel is....another extolling the virtues of Stacy Abrahams. Another pro abortion. The fiction books ....mostly NYC Jewish...80% female.

    Replies: @AnotherDad, @Unintended Consequence

    Sympathetic Bio of George Floyd….

    Well in fairness, that one would take some “work”.

    • LOL: Malcolm X-Lax
  150. @Abe

    Women wrote between 31% and 41% in the first four decades, before dropping with coming of WWII (which I’m guessing provided men with lots of great material).
     
    Bingo! Hemingway was not a vet I think, but was vet-adjacent (volunteer ambulance driver in WWI, possibly had some involvement in the Spanish Civil War, I forget; Orwell was on the ground in the latter though). Mailer, Heller, Wouk were WWII vets, as was Salinger, who had the “luck” to see action at the heaviest American land engagements of the entire war. Vonnegut was also a vet, and present (as a POW) during the firebombing of Dresden. Heinlein and Asimov worked as military contractors during the war, conducive to imaging world-shattering doomsday devices.

    Roth did not see action in combat but was enlisted and served in the same unit as Elvis (OK, I made that part up). Plus he was near sex-criminal in disposition (the parts about stalking the streets of New York to accost fresh, unsuspecting [email protected] in PORTNOY’S COMPLAINT are almost certainly autobiographical, as he admits to even worse stuff in his authorized biography- having the head of the UPenn(?) creative writing program feed him fresh coeds each semester, insisting on the right to try and [email protected] his step-daughter’s friends, etc.). Mailer, Bukowski, Hunter Thompson, Robert Crumb were also of this same outlaw, sexual deviant semi-criminal cloth.

    Gen-X and on writers are pretty weak tea by comparison. I will definitely give Franzen a serious go now thanks to Dave Pinsen’s well-spoken praise above, but trying to get through THE CORRECTIONS I was stopped cold by the opening chapter’s attempt to mine literary gold from the belittlement of ordinary middle class people (they clip a lot of coupons, the swine!)

    Rick Moody, Michael Chabon, Dave Eggers, Brett Easton Ellis, David Foster Wallace, Jonathan Lethem, Nick Hornby, Jonathan Saran Foer, etc. have collectively almost 0 in the way of vital lived male experience as far as I know. Though ICE STORM was very good, the rest of Moody’s work was incredibly navel-gazing and to add to the problem a lot of these straight male creators (and here I can add director Kevin Smith, white adjacent Junot Diaz, the guy who created THE OC) started to unashamedly geek out to their comic books/Dungeons & Dragons inner man-childs at the start of the 2000’s, obliterating whatever vestiges of masculine mystique they may have enjoyed. To paraphrase Oliver Wendell Holmes, a single generation of Rick Moody’s is enough!

    Replies: @JimDandy, @prosa123, @Jack D, @Dave Pinsen

    Roth did not see action in combat but was enlisted and served in the same unit as Elvis (OK, I made that part up).

    You sure did. One of the things that the Vietnam generation especially did not understand about the Army is that the Army really needs people who can write a complete sentence and type and so on (the Army runs on paperwork, or did in the pre-digital age), so if you have some special skill they are not just going to hand you an M-16 and send you to the jungle.

    This is how Roth spoke of his military service:

    I was in the Public Information Office of Walter Reed Hospital in Washington. And my job was to go out into the wards and get information about soldiers newly arrived who were injured … and then write a little press release for their hometown paper.

    They had a lot of amputees at Walter Reed … and so I went out on the wards, and I talked to these guys. It was sad, as you can imagine. This was just after the Korean War. … I’d go down to PT with them — physical therapy — and watch them learning to walk on the parallel bars and so on. … The pathos was overwhelming.

    Roth used this experience to create the character of the amputee war veteran cousin who comes to live with his family in The Plot Against America.

    Plus he was near sex-criminal in disposition

    Only by Current Year standards. Yes nowadays it would be a hanging offense for a literature professor to sleep with the undergrads, but in those days it was considered completely normal. In fact the girls would COMPETE with each other to see which one(s) would get to sleep with the famous author who was a rock star in intellectual circles. He didn’t have to coerce these women – they threw themselves at him. They were honored to be picked (or if they weren’t they didn’t have to). He wasn’t going to pick the dumb ones or the fat ones or the ugly ones. Those so honored would have to look good AND be capable of carrying on an intellectual conversation about literature.

    • Thanks: Abe
    • Replies: @Alden
    @Jack D

    My father re conquered the Philippines with his trusty typewriter and shorthand pad.

    , @David In TN
    @Jack D

    It shocks people when you tell them only 10-20 % or so American servicemen in Vietnam went out in the bush. The great majority of Vietnam veterans I've known say they were never in combat, several were clerk typists, stacking supplies, etc. Others were in the artillery at a base camp. There was some danger of a mortar or rocket but it wasn't the same danger as in a grunt unit.

    And there has been a legion of Phony Vets. See B.G. Burkett's book, Stolen Valor.

    Replies: @tyrone

  151. @Steve Sailer
    @Anonymous

    I'm a little vague on which of these now famous novelists were considered literary writers during their own time. Hammett, Chandler, and Cain are now major figures in American letters, but at the time they were considered more as successful pulp writers who happened to inspire classic movies. Fitzgerald was a huge celebrity in the 1920s, but was he considered a literary writer at the time?

    My impression is Hemingway was considered an important literary innovator from the late 1920s onward. Hemingway's connection to high art modernist types in Paris like Ezra Pound and Gertrude Stein assured that from the beginning he wasn't considered a pulp writer, even though the ease with which he could be read and his manly subject matter might otherwise suggest he was. The young Evelyn Waugh, a very self-consciously elitist modernist, always saw Hemingway as the giant who once and for all killed the ornate Victorian prose style that Waugh despised.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Mark G., @JimDandy, @mousey, @Chriscom, @njguy73, @Anon

    I read a lot of Hemingway and Fitzgerald in my youth and so became a big fan of famed Scribner’s editor Maxwell Perkins, who among other things was editor and literary mentor to Fitzgerald. My sense is that even at the time, his work was considered literary. This Side of Paradise being his breakthrough novel, though perhaps some saw it as faddish as an account of the Flapper age.

  152. Tex says:
    @SafeNow
    V.S. Naipaul famously/notoriously said that he could read a few paragraphs of a writer and tell you whether it was written by a man or a woman. Assuming he is correct, a cofactor in the bias is a bias against a particular style of writing; something so subtle you really can’t put your finger on it but you know it’s there. And similarly, when I am reading letters to the editor of the Wall Street Journal, I am pretty sure that I can often tell when it is written by a Jewish writer even before I read the name of the writer; there is something rabbinical about it.

    Replies: @Tex

    V.S. Naipaul famously/notoriously said that he could read a few paragraphs of a writer and tell you whether it was written by a man or a woman.

    It’s not too hard to spot, particularly if the writer is relatively inexperienced. New writers channel their style less self-consciously. If you’ve seen the meme of the man and woman in bed with the woman’s thought balloon an extended list of relationship issues the man might be thinking about while the man’s thoughts are about his motorcycle’s carburetor, then you’ve pretty much got the basics of how men’s and women’s fiction tends to differ.

    For instance, read some Raymond Chandler, then read Leigh Brackett’s No Good From a Corpse, a pastiche of Chandler by the as-yet new Brackett. Philip Marlowe’s interior thoughts are guy’s thoughts, about the case, about political and social norms that impact his work, about trying to retain dignity in the face of corruption and deceit. Brackett’s PI wonders what his friends are feeling. I laughed the PI was such a chick with a guy’s name.

    The thing is Brackett developed a lot. She is in fact one of the finest writers of Golden Age SF. She could mix up Chandler’s style with Edgar Rice Burrough’s and make the planet Mars a glorious stage for adventures worthy of a John Ford Western.

    It’s not that women writers are bad (90% of everything is crap after all) but different. But who wants to hear that nowadays?

    • Agree: Mark G.
    • Thanks: SafeNow
    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    @Tex

    What is Leigh Brackett's best book? I don't want to start at the bottom.

    TIA.

    Replies: @Tex

    , @Anon
    @Tex

    I've always said you could tell the difference between fantasy written by men and women easily. When Brak the Barbarian reaches town, the first thing he wants is a hunch of meat and a hot woman (if written by a man). But when Brak is written by a woman, the first thing he wants back in civilization is a hot bath.

  153. @martin_2
    @Dave Pinsen


    he takes the girl to a Holocaust movie on their first date
     
    That's nothing. I took a girl to a cemetary on our first date.

    Replies: @Kylie, @SFG, @JimDandy, @Jim Don Bob, @kaganovitch, @tyrone, @peterike, @Right_On

    Goth girls are easy.

  154. @martin_2
    @Dave Pinsen


    he takes the girl to a Holocaust movie on their first date
     
    That's nothing. I took a girl to a cemetary on our first date.

    Replies: @Kylie, @SFG, @JimDandy, @Jim Don Bob, @kaganovitch, @tyrone, @peterike, @Right_On

    I took a girl on a first date to Fort Marcy Park where Vince Foster killed himself.

    • Replies: @tyrone
    @Jim Don Bob


    Fort Marcy Park where Vince Foster killed himself.
     
    ........ya think?

    Replies: @Rob McX

  155. It’s getting into the dog days of Summer, so I’m reading through some old Clive Cussler novels. His protagonist, Dirk Pitt, is a cross between James Bond and Indiana Jones. Lots of lowbrow fun, unapologetically chauvinistic.

  156. Abe says:
    @AnotherDad

    “I was having a meeting the other day with yet another 28-year-old woman,” he continues.
     
    Now that's funny. (YA28YOW)

    Feminism made a bunch of claims back in the day. (I'm talking about 1970, not 1919.)

    One of the things the internet has provided is "a voice for women". This past decade, we've all been given the opportunity to observe the passion, intelligence, good humor, empiricism, sharp reasoning, and deep insight that women bring to our national conversation.

    Replies: @Abe

    One of the things the internet has provided is “a voice for women”. This past decade, we’ve all been given the opportunity to observe the passion, intelligence, good humor, empiricism, sharp reasoning, and deep insight that women bring to our national conversation.

    We now live in a girl boss/tattler universe where the civil norms of the most powerful nation on earth are defined by a courthouse in Salem in 1619- or the most b!tchy sort of high school social backstacking young adult fiction.

    Only a week or so ago the supreme legislature of this land was entranced by the testimony of a certain Ms. Cassidy Hutchinson, who- like- heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend that Trump totally spazzed out in front of the Secret Service. When direct witnesses of the supposed spazz-out failed to confirm her story, it is the Secret Service that must now be investigated, with I’m sure lots of people eventually going to jail on Trump’d-up contempt & perjury procedural crimes.

    This week 2 members of The Squad were arrested at an anti-anti-abortion protest and- when the hoped-for mediagenic police brutality did not materialize- they marched themselves in front of the cameras anyway with pretend handcuffs pinioning their arms behind their backs. AOC earlier this year said she was almost kidnapped and raped by Jan 6. Proud Boys- OK, that did not literally happen but she FEARED she would be kidnapped and raped, a totally unfalsifiable assertion.

    What else happened recently? Oh yeah, the totally non-plant, non-fabricated FACEBOOK ‘whistleblower’ Frances Haugen-Manjaw (with 60 MINUTES INTERVIEW, Congressional star witness turn instantaneously lined up the minute she came forth). Then there was that [email protected] Tracy Flick preventing the undoing of Old Girl Tracy Flick’s 2nd boner- the dynamiting of the German nuclear fleet (hope visions of rainbow-colored unicorn farts heating their homes REAL SOON NOW help tide the Deutsch over this winter) and, of course, the mother of all recent girl boss concoctions- the dead serious demand that the 2016 Presidential Election be decided on the basis of mean ol’ Donnie calling my best friend’s best friend fat.

    No wonder Putin keeps rolling us.

    • Replies: @Jacobite2
    @Abe

    Women can pass along genes for high IQs to their offspring. Otherwise, intelligence in women is about as useful as the hood ornament on a Mercedes-Benz.

  157. I couldn’t read past the second paragraph of the article.

    Proud to brag and boast that I’m practically the only employer in Los Angeles that tries to hire nothing but White men. Drs for personal health lawyers accountants tax preparers managers real certified electricians and plumbers out of the union dispatch office. Etc etc as much White men as much as possible.

    I told the medical insurance gal White American men Drs only. And she gave me 3 names and addresses. “ “These sound like White American names” said the gal with the Spanish accent.

  158. @Ian Smith
    I will say this about female authors: they write men much better than male authors write women. With the exception of The Mists of Avalon (shudder), I have never read fiction by a woman with unbelievable male characters, while even some otherwise talented male authors can write eye-rollingly ridiculous women.
    It HAS gotten better, though. American fiction written by men between 1920 and 1960 is the worst.

    Replies: @Mike Tre, @Tracy, @Guest87, @Blodgie, @J.Ross, @Bardon Kaldian

    Nonsense

    • Replies: @Ian Smith
    @Mike Tre

    Care to elaborate?

    , @Adam Smith
    @Mike Tre

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbA-KAgj-ko

  159. Anonymous[944] • Disclaimer says:

    Most literary agents are female and English majors.

    The above explains what’s going on in publishing.

  160. @Anon
    Nobody shoule care. As the article notes, very few white men are attracted to fiction writing. This isn't an industry the average white male is interested in, and those who are will probably be coming from privileged upper middle class backgrounds anyway -- not the kind of person who has to worry about a career path. Assuming this is true, anyway, and not the anecdotal blabbering of a middle aged white woman.

    Call me when white men are being discriminated against when applying for the types of jobs they love to do, like police officer, meterologist, politician, lawyer, mechanic, ag teacher, scout sniper, hot air balloon tour guide, circus owner, solar energy, wind turbine repair man, cameraman, small aircraft pilot, amateur porn producer, knifemaker, gun salesman, etc.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Thoughts, @NOTA, @Anonymous, @Mr. Anon, @throtler

    Compare fiction writing with programming. I am fine with either:

    a. We accept the gender imbalance and don’t worry about it

    b. We see the gender imbalance as evidence of discrimination and worry about it

    I just want the same approach to apply regardless of the direction of the imbalance.

    • Replies: @SFG
    @NOTA

    I used to say the same thing, but feminists weaponized double standards and we have the Current Year. So now I say: to those of the same sex, everything! To those of the opposite sex, nothing! Wir mussen die Feministen ausrotten!

    , @Bardon Kaldian
    @NOTA

    Yes, but for intellectualized females imaginative literature means a lot (not other arts, just literature). Girls and women talk much, 7 times more than males.

    Women are marginal not only in sciences, but also in visual arts & canonical music. In literature, they are a significant minority.

  161. @martin_2
    @Dave Pinsen


    he takes the girl to a Holocaust movie on their first date
     
    That's nothing. I took a girl to a cemetary on our first date.

    Replies: @Kylie, @SFG, @JimDandy, @Jim Don Bob, @kaganovitch, @tyrone, @peterike, @Right_On

    That’s nothing. I took a girl to a cemetary on our first date.

    Perhaps one day a surviving Unzite will write “The Serial Killer Among Us: Memoirs of a Repentant Sailerite”.

    • LOL: Bardon Kaldian
    • Replies: @Abe
    @kaganovitch



    That’s nothing. I took a girl to a cemetary on our first date.
     
    Perhaps one day a surviving Unzite will write “The Serial Killer Among Us: Memoirs of a Repentant Sailerite”.

     

    How about a running letters feature?

    “Dear Unz Review,

    This may sound made-up, but I swear it’s totally true…”

     

  162. @possumman
    @Adept

    Female written sci -fi is almost all terrible--but since most sci-fi is now sword and sorcery fantasy crap an awful lot of it is terrible anyway.

    Replies: @NOTA

    Cherryh and Bujold both have written some very good books and stories. I don’t keep up with the latest thing in SF (and since the whole #racefail meltdown that community has been a mess), but they are at least two pretty clear exceptions. Similarly, the Murdebot books are pretty good. Any of those three have written stories that would work well as movies, too.

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    @NOTA

    Agree. I would add Robin Hobb (more fantasy than sf) , Elizabeth Moon and the late great Andre Norton too. Not sure how to classify Connie Willis, perhaps alt-history?, but she's pretty good too.

  163. Abe says:
    @prosa123
    @Abe

    Roth did not see action in combat but was enlisted and served in the same unit as Elvis (OK, I made that part up). Plus he was near sex-criminal in disposition (the parts about stalking the streets of New York to accost fresh, unsuspecting [email protected] in PORTNOY’S COMPLAINT are almost certainly autobiographical

    Is the part about him Doing the Dirty Deed with a piece of liver his family later ate also autobiographical?

    Replies: @SFG, @Abe

    Is the part about him Doing the Dirty Deed with a piece of liver his family later ate also autobiographical?

    The Diceman worked that part into his act. Didn’t know he was such a connoisseur of literary fiction!

    • Replies: @Malcolm X-Lax
    @Abe

    This reminds of the time Clay was on Howard Stern right after Robert Duval. Duval had made a couple of comments about Howard's Jewishness--not disparaging, just...noticing--and when Clay comes on, he's all bent out of shape about Duval. Howard seemed to have no problem with it. But this was the same Howard who could make a comment that Soon Yi-Previn has a face "like a catcher's mitt" but then bitch and moan when Jaimie Pressley says he looks like he was "smacked with a yarmulke". As usual, rules for thee but not for me.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen

  164. @Jack D
    @Abe


    Roth did not see action in combat but was enlisted and served in the same unit as Elvis (OK, I made that part up).
     
    You sure did. One of the things that the Vietnam generation especially did not understand about the Army is that the Army really needs people who can write a complete sentence and type and so on (the Army runs on paperwork, or did in the pre-digital age), so if you have some special skill they are not just going to hand you an M-16 and send you to the jungle.

    This is how Roth spoke of his military service:


    I was in the Public Information Office of Walter Reed Hospital in Washington. And my job was to go out into the wards and get information about soldiers newly arrived who were injured ... and then write a little press release for their hometown paper.

    They had a lot of amputees at Walter Reed ... and so I went out on the wards, and I talked to these guys. It was sad, as you can imagine. This was just after the Korean War. ... I'd go down to PT with them — physical therapy — and watch them learning to walk on the parallel bars and so on. ... The pathos was overwhelming.
     

    Roth used this experience to create the character of the amputee war veteran cousin who comes to live with his family in The Plot Against America.

    Plus he was near sex-criminal in disposition
     

    Only by Current Year standards. Yes nowadays it would be a hanging offense for a literature professor to sleep with the undergrads, but in those days it was considered completely normal. In fact the girls would COMPETE with each other to see which one(s) would get to sleep with the famous author who was a rock star in intellectual circles. He didn't have to coerce these women - they threw themselves at him. They were honored to be picked (or if they weren't they didn't have to). He wasn't going to pick the dumb ones or the fat ones or the ugly ones. Those so honored would have to look good AND be capable of carrying on an intellectual conversation about literature.

    Replies: @Alden, @David In TN

    My father re conquered the Philippines with his trusty typewriter and shorthand pad.

  165. Reproductive rates for whites are low, but I wonder how they’re even at these levels. It’s not much of a hope to rely on the kind of men who can live with a man-hating harridan to breed successfully. I (who am not young) have enough trouble staying in the same room with these female dogs, much less gittin’ down to de git-down.

  166. @Muggles
    Of course the Comrades will whine about the usual stuff that Intersectional Marxism whines about. That varies depending on the intended audience.

    The racial and sexual ("gender') quota system and discrimination against White males (esp. non Jewish) is celebrated as "progress" not condemned as bigotry.

    What does the book buying marketplace say about this?

    On factor is that probably close to 90% of all "librarians" these days are women. So they undoubtedly favor their trendy female/queer authors. Particularly in academic settings where anti White Male bigotry is part of their daily mantra.

    Excluding institutional purchasers, I suspect more females buy novels than men do. Especially the non genre novels (excluding sci fi, action/adventure/police, fantasy, etc.). Of course trashy and formula "romance" novels sell well, mainly to women. The pulp paperback section in used bookstores is full of bodice rippers for gals.

    As for serious novelists, they are coming out of lit/English academia as well. But some will manage to produce readable fiction about interesting male characters. And women as well.

    I suspect non Whites buy relatively few books of any kind. Men tend to be more workplace engaged until retirement, so again, females probably lead males. Once kids are in school, mostly, there is a lot of "book club/Chardonnay" readers and Oprah book club followers.

    There are a mere handful of lit "critics" who act as gatekeepers for publishers. Very few are "real men" who have held jobs in difficult fields (sailors, soldiers, construction, mining, police, etc.) and instead are more effete types, probably more gay than average. The Hemingway novelist is long gone.

    I suspect the sales of "serious" novels is in the low thousands, usually. The Woke values have to be pushed onto consumers from above. Even then, few are buying.

    Prior to radio, TV, video, and Internet, book reading was a major leisure past-time. Now it is comic book "films" and cell phone lit bits which can be read when doing other things. Most successful authors develop characters who serve as continuing features of book series.

    I suspect the "publishing industry" is hustling the rubes and pretending that is High Art for The Mind. Nope.

    For the lower classes, there are few if any magazines at home and no books. Thanks to corruption of the educational system, a vast population of semi literate people prefer to "watch" rather than read. Watching is pre-digested for them, reading requires vocabulary and mental architecture.

    Publishers preen and strut, hoping you think they are producing fine dining for the mind. In reality they are dishing out barely intelligible cafeteria dreck, requiring few if any brain cells to fire up.

    Like in the former USSR, we are in the age of self-censoring mediocrity pushing status symbol unread "literature" and making money off everything else.

    Replies: @Jack D, @NOTA

    Is this a market opportunity? YA publishing is famously a hellscape of assistant volunteer thought police and self-appointed commisars purging one another, and I wouldn’t be surprised to see other parts of publishing be similarly broken. So is there an opening for some other publisher to eat their lunch, a la Substack, by just offering book deals to people writing books that appeal heavily to men and cover more masculine and conservative themes?

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    @NOTA

    So is there an opening for some other publisher to eat their lunch, a la Substack, by just offering book deals to people writing books that appeal heavily to men and cover more masculine and conservative themes?

    This market is already serviced by the Kindle/epub industry so I'm not sure how much of an opportunity it represents.

  167. @Jack D
    @Abe


    Roth did not see action in combat but was enlisted and served in the same unit as Elvis (OK, I made that part up).
     
    You sure did. One of the things that the Vietnam generation especially did not understand about the Army is that the Army really needs people who can write a complete sentence and type and so on (the Army runs on paperwork, or did in the pre-digital age), so if you have some special skill they are not just going to hand you an M-16 and send you to the jungle.

    This is how Roth spoke of his military service:


    I was in the Public Information Office of Walter Reed Hospital in Washington. And my job was to go out into the wards and get information about soldiers newly arrived who were injured ... and then write a little press release for their hometown paper.

    They had a lot of amputees at Walter Reed ... and so I went out on the wards, and I talked to these guys. It was sad, as you can imagine. This was just after the Korean War. ... I'd go down to PT with them — physical therapy — and watch them learning to walk on the parallel bars and so on. ... The pathos was overwhelming.
     

    Roth used this experience to create the character of the amputee war veteran cousin who comes to live with his family in The Plot Against America.

    Plus he was near sex-criminal in disposition
     

    Only by Current Year standards. Yes nowadays it would be a hanging offense for a literature professor to sleep with the undergrads, but in those days it was considered completely normal. In fact the girls would COMPETE with each other to see which one(s) would get to sleep with the famous author who was a rock star in intellectual circles. He didn't have to coerce these women - they threw themselves at him. They were honored to be picked (or if they weren't they didn't have to). He wasn't going to pick the dumb ones or the fat ones or the ugly ones. Those so honored would have to look good AND be capable of carrying on an intellectual conversation about literature.

    Replies: @Alden, @David In TN

    It shocks people when you tell them only 10-20 % or so American servicemen in Vietnam went out in the bush. The great majority of Vietnam veterans I’ve known say they were never in combat, several were clerk typists, stacking supplies, etc. Others were in the artillery at a base camp. There was some danger of a mortar or rocket but it wasn’t the same danger as in a grunt unit.

    And there has been a legion of Phony Vets. See B.G. Burkett’s book, Stolen Valor.

    • Replies: @tyrone
    @David In TN


    And there has been a legion of Phony Vets. See B.G. Burkett’s book, Stolen Valor.
     
    ............that didn't stop a certain shit hole state from electing a certain nauseating worm as senator......hint: state in the north.
  168. Abe says:
    @kaganovitch
    @martin_2

    That’s nothing. I took a girl to a cemetary on our first date.

    Perhaps one day a surviving Unzite will write "The Serial Killer Among Us: Memoirs of a Repentant Sailerite".

    Replies: @Abe

    That’s nothing. I took a girl to a cemetary on our first date.

    Perhaps one day a surviving Unzite will write “The Serial Killer Among Us: Memoirs of a Repentant Sailerite”.

    How about a running letters feature?

    “Dear Unz Review,

    This may sound made-up, but I swear it’s totally true…”

    • LOL: kaganovitch
  169. @Bardon Kaldian
    @kaganovitch

    Kipling is popular because of his children & animal books. His Kim is not too popular, and it is basically a colonial fiction.

    Whites, wherever they are, read fictions authored by whites (or "white Hispanics") about the global Western world with some exotic peculiarities somewhere, but not too much. That's a world from Argentina via North America to France and Russia. Common cultural codes & sensibility. No one truly understands, nor cares about being black, Muslim or Buddhist.

    I didn't pay much attention to the topic, but I've noticed about serious male readers - not professional literary types: they don't care for Toni Morrison & "black experience"; Salman Rushdie is for them boring & alien; the same goes for ..what's her name? ... Arun .. Roy or something about Christians in India & for the most Japanese.

    White men (and women when they are not in affectation mode) just find black American, African, Muslim, Hindu, east Asian.... middle- and high brow fiction alien & bothersome.

    Exceptions are professors & similar types.

    Replies: @kaganovitch, @Irish Anti-Puritan

    White men (and women when they are not in affectation mode) just find black American, African, Muslim, Hindu, east Asian…. middle- and high brow fiction alien & bothersome.

    If you’re saying that Western readers find exotic cultures engaging when described from a Western/Colonial point of view much more so than when described from an indigenous point of view, I’d largely agree. I’m perfectly happy with the ‘Silence of the Subaltern.’ This is responsible for the appeal of Pearl S. Buck, Isak Dinesen, etc. To me at least, the exception is Japan. I have always found Mishima’s writing fascinating.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @kaganovitch

    Mishima is a "cult author", so he's exception.

    Anyway, his literary tastes were a bit odd- he preferred Jean Racine and Thomas Mann.

  170. @NOTA
    @Anon

    Compare fiction writing with programming. I am fine with either:

    a. We accept the gender imbalance and don't worry about it

    b. We see the gender imbalance as evidence of discrimination and worry about it

    I just want the same approach to apply regardless of the direction of the imbalance.

    Replies: @SFG, @Bardon Kaldian

    I used to say the same thing, but feminists weaponized double standards and we have the Current Year. So now I say: to those of the same sex, everything! To those of the opposite sex, nothing! Wir mussen die Feministen ausrotten!

  171. @NOTA
    @Muggles

    Is this a market opportunity? YA publishing is famously a hellscape of assistant volunteer thought police and self-appointed commisars purging one another, and I wouldn't be surprised to see other parts of publishing be similarly broken. So is there an opening for some other publisher to eat their lunch, a la Substack, by just offering book deals to people writing books that appeal heavily to men and cover more masculine and conservative themes?

    Replies: @kaganovitch

    So is there an opening for some other publisher to eat their lunch, a la Substack, by just offering book deals to people writing books that appeal heavily to men and cover more masculine and conservative themes?

    This market is already serviced by the Kindle/epub industry so I’m not sure how much of an opportunity it represents.

  172. @kaganovitch
    @Bardon Kaldian

    White men (and women when they are not in affectation mode) just find black American, African, Muslim, Hindu, east Asian…. middle- and high brow fiction alien & bothersome.

    If you're saying that Western readers find exotic cultures engaging when described from a Western/Colonial point of view much more so than when described from an indigenous point of view, I'd largely agree. I'm perfectly happy with the 'Silence of the Subaltern.' This is responsible for the appeal of Pearl S. Buck, Isak Dinesen, etc. To me at least, the exception is Japan. I have always found Mishima's writing fascinating.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    Mishima is a “cult author”, so he’s exception.

    Anyway, his literary tastes were a bit odd- he preferred Jean Racine and Thomas Mann.

  173. Anon[166] • Disclaimer says:

    OT: Portia Odufuwa shot up a ticket counter at Love Field today. She should already be in jail because she’s a former bank robber. This is what comes of not keeping criminal blacks in prison.

    https://www.dallasnews.com/news/2019/04/06/quick-action-by-employees-leads-to-arrest-of-wylie-bank-robbery-suspect-friday/

    https://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/dallas/article263802788.html

    • Replies: @Alden
    @Anon

    Odyfuwa must be another African immigrant. Probably so dumb she thinks passengers give stacks of $20,50 and 100 bills to pay for their tickets

    Replies: @JimDandy

    , @Muggles
    @Anon


    This is what comes of not keeping criminal blacks in prison.
     
    Re: former female bank robber shooting up Love Field airport today.

    In Soros DA World, that is a feature, not a bug.

    And once they take your little gun away Mr., you'll get yours...

    Replies: @Jack D

  174. @JimDandy
    @Steve Sailer

    Right, and and the ideologies of Soros-backed DAs go way back too.

    Replies: @Mike Tre

    Well, the Sheriff of Nottingham was a Soros guy.

  175. @Abe
    @AnotherDad


    One of the things the internet has provided is “a voice for women”. This past decade, we’ve all been given the opportunity to observe the passion, intelligence, good humor, empiricism, sharp reasoning, and deep insight that women bring to our national conversation.

     

    We now live in a girl boss/tattler universe where the civil norms of the most powerful nation on earth are defined by a courthouse in Salem in 1619- or the most b!tchy sort of high school social backstacking young adult fiction.

    Only a week or so ago the supreme legislature of this land was entranced by the testimony of a certain Ms. Cassidy Hutchinson, who- like- heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend that Trump totally spazzed out in front of the Secret Service. When direct witnesses of the supposed spazz-out failed to confirm her story, it is the Secret Service that must now be investigated, with I’m sure lots of people eventually going to jail on Trump’d-up contempt & perjury procedural crimes.

    This week 2 members of The Squad were arrested at an anti-anti-abortion protest and- when the hoped-for mediagenic police brutality did not materialize- they marched themselves in front of the cameras anyway with pretend handcuffs pinioning their arms behind their backs. AOC earlier this year said she was almost kidnapped and raped by Jan 6. Proud Boys- OK, that did not literally happen but she FEARED she would be kidnapped and raped, a totally unfalsifiable assertion.

    What else happened recently? Oh yeah, the totally non-plant, non-fabricated FACEBOOK ‘whistleblower’ Frances Haugen-Manjaw (with 60 MINUTES INTERVIEW, Congressional star witness turn instantaneously lined up the minute she came forth). Then there was that [email protected] Tracy Flick preventing the undoing of Old Girl Tracy Flick’s 2nd boner- the dynamiting of the German nuclear fleet (hope visions of rainbow-colored unicorn farts heating their homes REAL SOON NOW help tide the Deutsch over this winter) and, of course, the mother of all recent girl boss concoctions- the dead serious demand that the 2016 Presidential Election be decided on the basis of mean ol’ Donnie calling my best friend’s best friend fat.

    No wonder Putin keeps rolling us.

    Replies: @Jacobite2

    Women can pass along genes for high IQs to their offspring. Otherwise, intelligence in women is about as useful as the hood ornament on a Mercedes-Benz.

  176. I have a B.A. in English (30 years ago) and was for a time immersed in the world of fiction but I can’t recall the last “contemporary” novel I read. Maybe The Road or Shutter Island. The people who spend their time reading contemporary novels is miniscule. That is not where the masses are consuming “literature.” I can remember Gore Vidal pointing out decades ago that the novel had already been supplanted by film as the main creative product of world culture. And he was right. And I just took a look at the Oscar nominees for Best Screenplay of 2022 and guess what? All white and all male. Though the 2021 winner was a white female, who won for a film I hadn’t even heard of prior to this comment; the rest were all men. Of course, it’s unfortunate that talented fiction writers are being overlooked because they are white and male–and the days where they can embarass the gatekeepers by publishing as a pseudonymous aboriginal lesbian or chinese woman are likely past (the gatekeepers won’t get fooled again). But what writer wouldn’t honestly rather be Christopher Nolan or Aaron Sorkin than the super-exciting and “buzz”-worthy Sally Rooney?

  177. @David In TN
    @Jack D

    It shocks people when you tell them only 10-20 % or so American servicemen in Vietnam went out in the bush. The great majority of Vietnam veterans I've known say they were never in combat, several were clerk typists, stacking supplies, etc. Others were in the artillery at a base camp. There was some danger of a mortar or rocket but it wasn't the same danger as in a grunt unit.

    And there has been a legion of Phony Vets. See B.G. Burkett's book, Stolen Valor.

    Replies: @tyrone

    And there has been a legion of Phony Vets. See B.G. Burkett’s book, Stolen Valor.

    …………that didn’t stop a certain shit hole state from electing a certain nauseating worm as senator……hint: state in the north.

  178. @Dave Pinsen

    “I was having a meeting the other day with yet another 28-year-old woman,” he continues. “I always ask editors, ‘What are you looking for’, and she happened to say, ‘What I really want is a generational family drama’. I said, ‘Oh, like The Corrections by Jonathan Franzen?’ and honestly, you would think I’d said Mein Kampf. She said, ‘No! Nothing like that!’. And I thought, ‘But that’s literally what you’ve described!’”
     
    Has there ever been a profession that became better when dominated by women? Maybe nursing, but a woman kind of invented it.

    The Corrections by Jonathan Franzen is probably better than anything a woman has written this century. Franzen's ambition in writing it was to write a literary novel that was also a page-turner, and he succeeded.

    Franzen's subsequent novel, Freedom, might be the best American novel to describe the aughts. A lot of the hatred toward him is purely envy.

    An example of the female-dominated publishing industry's failure: a writer named Kristen Roupenian got her short story called "Cat Person" published in the New Yorker a few years ago. It was a pretty good story, about a college girl's brief relationship with an older, socially and sexually awkward man (he takes the girl to a Holocaust movie on their first date), and it resonated with women and went viral. As a result of that, Roupenian got a 7-figure advance for writing a book of short stories, which got outsold by the self-published psuedonymous author "Delicious Tacos".

    I haven't bought any of Tacos' books, because I think I'd find them too depressing, but some of the stories of his I've read have been great. One example is Autopilot, which starts with a similar premise as the Ben Stiller prestige TV show "Severance", but is much pithier and funnier.

    Replies: @JimDandy, @Almost Missouri, @martin_2, @Rodger Dodger, @Jack D, @JimDandy, @James J. O'Meara

    I read about half of Cat Person and I grew too bored to read any further. A guy picks up a 20 year old (the protagonist though told in the 3rd person) who works at the concession stand of a movie theater. He is a bit older and he takes her on their first date to see a serious movie about the Holocaust. Even though she is supposed to be an intellectually serious person, she deems this inappropriate – he should have taken her to a rom-com for their first date. He in turn deems her outfit (leggings and a sweatshirt) in appropriate. Then he tries to take her to a bar but she gets carded so she begins to sob (surely the sign of a stable person). He then takes her to another bar. She doesn’t know what grownups order at bars (usually her friends with fake ID order pitchers of PBR) so she says “a beer.”

    At that point I grew bored and stopped reading. I really could care less what happened to these two characters. What utter drivel. So I skipped to the end. SPOILER ALERT

    [MORE]

    She stops dating the guy and then he stalks her and harasses by text message and calls her a whore. The end. I have just saved you a half hour of your life that you will never get back.

    Is there ANY male author that would write such drivel? Any (non-gay) man who would be interested in reading this?

    • Thanks: Rich, AnotherDad
    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    @Jack D

    "I didn't read most of the story and I don't understand why it went viral"

    Thanks for that invaluable contribution to this thread, Jack D.

    Replies: @Jack D

    , @Ghddghh
    @Jack D

    The first time I ordered a drink in a bar I asked for “a beer”. My parents never drank, and I had no experience with drinking culture. “Gimme a beer” is what I heard on TV; I should paid more attention to the commercials.

    I suppose I could have said “I’ll have the usual”, then answered the inevitable follow-up with “whatever most people usually have”.

    It was embarrassing, but inconsequential; I soon discovered that I didn’t care for any kind of alcohol, and quickly stopped drinking any at all.

    , @AnotherDad
    @Jack D

    There's all sorts of stories of various human interactions that you can cook up. They are interesting/not as stories of human interaction.

    But the over-arching theme here would be societal aimlessness. What is a 20 year old doing getting picked up by this much older guy? (If I understood some of the earlier comments.)

    A 20 year old girl, along with whatever studies or occupation should be using her time of youth and beauty to find a quality mate to build a family with. Yes, for some that may involve dating some different types of guys to figure out what "works" for her. It really should not involve "dating"--as in sleeping with--a bunch of different guys, as that just grinds away at her sexual bonding with her future husband. If she dates guys, it should be a rather merciless culling process. Won't work--cut. Won't work--cut. Ok this guy has potential ...

    True enough, not everyone is on the "family track". But it is the people on the "family track" who actually matter to a society.

    You can basically craft endless stories of people engaging in pointless sexual relationships ... ok! (You can craft endless stories of people getting addicted to this and that also.) In the end, honestly not very interesting.

    Replies: @kaganovitch

  179. @martin_2
    @Dave Pinsen


    he takes the girl to a Holocaust movie on their first date
     
    That's nothing. I took a girl to a cemetary on our first date.

    Replies: @Kylie, @SFG, @JimDandy, @Jim Don Bob, @kaganovitch, @tyrone, @peterike, @Right_On

    That’s nothing. I took a girl to a cemetary on our first date.

    …..did you get lucky?

  180. Yet few of these men are household names and none has anything like the cultural buzz of a Sally Rooney.

    I’ve never heard of that name, so I googled …

    Rooney was born in Castlebar, County Mayo, in 1991, where she also grew up and lives today, after studying in Dublin and a stint in New York City.[6] Her father, Kieran Rooney, worked for Telecom Éireann and her mother, Marie Farrell, ran an arts centre. Rooney has an older brother and a younger sister. She studied English at Trinity College Dublin (TCD), where she was elected a scholar in 2011. She started (but did not complete) a master’s degree in politics there, completing a degree in American literature instead, and graduated with an MA in 2013. Rooney has described herself as a Marxist.

    While attending Trinity College Dublin, Rooney was a university debater and eventually became the top debater at the European Universities Debating Championships in 2013, later writing of the experience.

    A Marxist?

    What do you, stupid creature, know about Marxism?

    And then- she writes about being top debater at some European Debating Championship….

    Others wrote about suffering mock execution, being in the trenches of Sevastopol, almost collapsing during the Congo river voyage, starving in Christiania, … and she- about some student debate…

    Conversations with Friends is the 2017 debut novel by the Irish author Sally Rooney, about two young women who become involved with an older couple in Dublin’s literary scene. The novel was published by Faber and Faber and received critical acclaim. A television adaptation, also called Conversations with Friends, was released in 2022.
    ……………………………….
    In Dublin, college students Frances (the narrator) and her best friend and ex-girlfriend Bobbi are noticed by Melissa, an essayist and photographer in her late thirties, when they are performing spoken-word poetry. Melissa invites them home, where they meet her husband, Nick, an actor. Their four lives become increasingly entangled as Frances begins an affair with Nick, and Bobbi and Melissa grow closer.

    So… two fake lesbians are wasting their meaningless lives until one of them starts screwing a married man, a the other fake lesbian starts a “love affair” with the guy’s straight wife.

    Who are these people? Where they live?

    And what can we expect from such people?

    Spengler was right …

    • Agree: Malcolm X-Lax
  181. @Dave Pinsen

    “I was having a meeting the other day with yet another 28-year-old woman,” he continues. “I always ask editors, ‘What are you looking for’, and she happened to say, ‘What I really want is a generational family drama’. I said, ‘Oh, like The Corrections by Jonathan Franzen?’ and honestly, you would think I’d said Mein Kampf. She said, ‘No! Nothing like that!’. And I thought, ‘But that’s literally what you’ve described!’”
     
    Has there ever been a profession that became better when dominated by women? Maybe nursing, but a woman kind of invented it.

    The Corrections by Jonathan Franzen is probably better than anything a woman has written this century. Franzen's ambition in writing it was to write a literary novel that was also a page-turner, and he succeeded.

    Franzen's subsequent novel, Freedom, might be the best American novel to describe the aughts. A lot of the hatred toward him is purely envy.

    An example of the female-dominated publishing industry's failure: a writer named Kristen Roupenian got her short story called "Cat Person" published in the New Yorker a few years ago. It was a pretty good story, about a college girl's brief relationship with an older, socially and sexually awkward man (he takes the girl to a Holocaust movie on their first date), and it resonated with women and went viral. As a result of that, Roupenian got a 7-figure advance for writing a book of short stories, which got outsold by the self-published psuedonymous author "Delicious Tacos".

    I haven't bought any of Tacos' books, because I think I'd find them too depressing, but some of the stories of his I've read have been great. One example is Autopilot, which starts with a similar premise as the Ben Stiller prestige TV show "Severance", but is much pithier and funnier.

    Replies: @JimDandy, @Almost Missouri, @martin_2, @Rodger Dodger, @Jack D, @JimDandy, @James J. O'Meara

    “Cat Person” was a good story primarily because it was an honest, warts-and-all look into the modern young woman’s brain (and other organs)–but that ending basically negated all its virtues. So forced and polemically-pat in contrast to everything leading up to it that I suspect she was essentially forced to insert it in place of some other ending.

    • Disagree: Kylie
    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    @JimDandy

    Yeah, agreed about the ending.

    But also, what turned the girl off about the guy seemed pretty fixable, and it's telling that none of the female reactions I'd seen to the story acknowledged that. You're willing to have sex with a man you hardly know, but not tell him how you like it? That's really more of a you problem, no?

    Replies: @JimDandy

    , @Jack D
    @JimDandy

    You definitely don't want warts on your organs.

  182. @NOTA
    @Anon

    Compare fiction writing with programming. I am fine with either:

    a. We accept the gender imbalance and don't worry about it

    b. We see the gender imbalance as evidence of discrimination and worry about it

    I just want the same approach to apply regardless of the direction of the imbalance.

    Replies: @SFG, @Bardon Kaldian

    Yes, but for intellectualized females imaginative literature means a lot (not other arts, just literature). Girls and women talk much, 7 times more than males.

    Women are marginal not only in sciences, but also in visual arts & canonical music. In literature, they are a significant minority.

  183. @White Guy In Japan
    @Anon

    "On the other hand, I’ve noticed a lot of self-published or small press male genre fiction, cop/detective/military thrillers. There seems to be an ecosystem of support services like design, copy editing, and ebook formatting that lets independents put out slick product, and the Amazon review infrastructure floats the cream to the top."

    Thanks to Kindle, I have seen some nice male-driven sub-genres emerge. Specifically, I dig the Asian Noir novels. Written by white men living in Asia (mainly SE), the novels remind me of older detective fiction a la Raymond Chandler. Dead hookers, crooked cops and lots of lost white souls wandering around Thailand.

    Fun bedtime reading!

    Replies: @Erik Sieven, @Rich, @Guest87

    Any recommendations?

    • Replies: @White Guy In Japan
    @Rich

    My three favorites are Christopher G. Moore, Jake Needham and John Burdett. All available on Kindle.

    For more info:
    https://crimereads.com/bangkoks-expat-crime-fiction-scene-is-booming/
    https://thediplomat.com/2016/05/bangkok-noir-crime-fiction-in-the-city-of-angels/

  184. @NOTA
    @possumman

    Cherryh and Bujold both have written some very good books and stories. I don't keep up with the latest thing in SF (and since the whole #racefail meltdown that community has been a mess), but they are at least two pretty clear exceptions. Similarly, the Murdebot books are pretty good. Any of those three have written stories that would work well as movies, too.

    Replies: @kaganovitch

    Agree. I would add Robin Hobb (more fantasy than sf) , Elizabeth Moon and the late great Andre Norton too. Not sure how to classify Connie Willis, perhaps alt-history?, but she’s pretty good too.

  185. Abe says:

    On a more positive note, white males (not always straight) of talent and ambition always find a way. Glen Greenwald is doing-just-fine-thank-you on Substack after walking away from THE INTERCEPT once its mediocre, conformist, Uniparty-line-spouting girl management turned it into a boring, lukewarm pile of mush. Tim Dillon (whom I honestly haven’t listened to in months, as there are even more compelling podcasts out there) just bought himself a \$4 million home. And Jake Paul, some weird, crazy combination of millennial YOUTUBE influencer and carnie barker who happens to also be his own strongman attraction, is selling 100’s of 1000’s of pay-per-views and redefining the pay-to-watch live violence industry (basically if Don King were hit by a Manhattan bus, told the only way he could be saved was to transfer his spirit into an ancient wooden carving of Wotan, and then realized he could cut out the middleman and promote himself now that he had this young blonde Viking giant body to play with, well, you’d have Jake Paul).

    And maybe the most endearing new straight white male creator is this 20-something community college dropout with the barest hint of a sweet North Carolina lilt still in his voice- aka MR BEAST who reaches 1000X if not 100,000X the audience of these industry-plant, hopped-up literati b!tches:

  186. Successful women are definitely more likely to come from privilege. It’s mostly men who have the testicular fortitude and drive to claw their way to the top. Women get to the top on the backs of successful fathers and husbands, or on their backs under other successful men.

    Source: Human nature, and all of history

  187. @northeast
    White men are in retreat on many fronts. Good luck as a white male trying to get into veterinary school in the USA. Almost 65% of vets are now female, with something like 80% of the vet school population currently female. No accident.

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @Guest007, @Sollipsist, @Peter Akuleyev

    Still, there are still more male veterinarians (60-70%) than there are male veterinary assistants or vet techs (90%+). It’s roughly equivalent to the distribution of doctors vs. nurses, and probably for similar reasons.

    During my past 15 years in this field, that ratio hasn’t changed much. What HAS changed is that each year it seems that fewer of the newer veterinarians (male or female) are white. I can only assume that this is the result of vet school admissions/ financial aid trends — vets are in such demand that nobody with a DVM goes without a job unless they choose to, whatever sex or ethnicity they may be.

    • Replies: @northeast
    @Sollipsist

    Interesting. Which non-whites? Asians? I can't imagine blacks or Hispanics coming into such a demanding profession in great numbers.

  188. @Henry's Cat
    @Dumbo


    The problem is, women dominate the publishing industry now, and they are hostile to male authors and swallow all the gobbledygook of Gaydom and Wokeness, so they prefer women and non-white and gay authors.
     
    Don't men still dominate when it comes to non-fiction writing?

    Replies: @JimDandy

    Depends on what you mean by non-fiction. BTW, I’m looking forward to Portia Odufuwa’s memoir.

  189. @Anon
    OT: Portia Odufuwa shot up a ticket counter at Love Field today. She should already be in jail because she's a former bank robber. This is what comes of not keeping criminal blacks in prison.

    https://www.dallasnews.com/news/2019/04/06/quick-action-by-employees-leads-to-arrest-of-wylie-bank-robbery-suspect-friday/

    https://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/dallas/article263802788.html

    Replies: @Alden, @Muggles

    Odyfuwa must be another African immigrant. Probably so dumb she thinks passengers give stacks of \$20,50 and 100 bills to pay for their tickets

    • Replies: @JimDandy
    @Alden

    Looking forward to her memoir after she is made the new head of BLM.

  190. @Bardon Kaldian
    @kaganovitch

    Kipling is popular because of his children & animal books. His Kim is not too popular, and it is basically a colonial fiction.

    Whites, wherever they are, read fictions authored by whites (or "white Hispanics") about the global Western world with some exotic peculiarities somewhere, but not too much. That's a world from Argentina via North America to France and Russia. Common cultural codes & sensibility. No one truly understands, nor cares about being black, Muslim or Buddhist.

    I didn't pay much attention to the topic, but I've noticed about serious male readers - not professional literary types: they don't care for Toni Morrison & "black experience"; Salman Rushdie is for them boring & alien; the same goes for ..what's her name? ... Arun .. Roy or something about Christians in India & for the most Japanese.

    White men (and women when they are not in affectation mode) just find black American, African, Muslim, Hindu, east Asian.... middle- and high brow fiction alien & bothersome.

    Exceptions are professors & similar types.

    Replies: @kaganovitch, @Irish Anti-Puritan

    White men (and women when they are not in affectation mode) just find black American, African, Muslim, Hindu, east Asian…. middle- and high brow fiction alien & bothersome.

    Yes but with a few notable exceptions like V.S. Naipual, Yukio Mishima and Ralph Ellison’s Invisible Man.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    @Irish Anti-Puritan

    I liked V.S. Naipaul's A House for Mr. Biswas. There's a scene early in the book where the Brahmin Hindu protagonist on Trinidad gets apprenticed to a Hindu priest, and one night he has to take a dump, but is too lazy to go to the outhouse. So he defecates in a handkerchief or something and tosses it out the window. The next morning, the priest abruptly terminates his apprenticeship, as his wad of shit ended up landing on a sacred tree. That sort of sets the tone for the rest of the book.

    One foreign author I'd recommend is Ryu Murakami, particularly his novel From The Fatherland, With Love (North Koreans taking over the southernmost main island of Japan). Popular Hits of the Showa Era is good too. He's a bit dark and violent, but very good.

  191. @JimDandy
    @Dave Pinsen

    "Cat Person" was a good story primarily because it was an honest, warts-and-all look into the modern young woman's brain (and other organs)--but that ending basically negated all its virtues. So forced and polemically-pat in contrast to everything leading up to it that I suspect she was essentially forced to insert it in place of some other ending.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen, @Jack D

    Yeah, agreed about the ending.

    But also, what turned the girl off about the guy seemed pretty fixable, and it’s telling that none of the female reactions I’d seen to the story acknowledged that. You’re willing to have sex with a man you hardly know, but not tell him how you like it? That’s really more of a you problem, no?

    • Replies: @JimDandy
    @Dave Pinsen

    Yeah. Well, I think the author was fairly critical--but even handed--of the protagonist throughout. The part where she's hiding from him amongst her giggling friends (I think?) was brutal. As for female reactions to the story, most women--and nearly all female readers of contemporary literary fiction--are incapable of seeing depictions of the male-female sex-drama in anything other than Manichean terms. Men are the antagonists, women are the infallible heroines. The bad things women do are all someone else's fault and their self-destructive behavior is cute and poignant.

  192. @Cagey Beast
    @JimDandy

    Blaming Anglo-American feminism on Jews has to be one of the weakest arguments out there. Feminism is something we cooked up ourselves or at least our Dissenter neighbours did:

    Seneca Falls Convention
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seneca_Falls_Convention

    People should have a look at that Wikipedia entry and follow the links to get a sense of how deeply the roots of wokeness go. Continental Europe has its republican and anti-clerical strains of liberalism and progressivism but modern feminism is our baby.

    The Ellis Island Jews took Yankee feminism, republicanism, anti-Europeanism and the worship of Blacks to new heights but they didn't invent them.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @JimDandy, @AnotherDad, @Hibernian

    Blaming Anglo-American feminism on Jews has to be one of the weakest arguments out there. Feminism is something we cooked up ourselves or at least our Dissenter neighbours did:

    The Ellis Island Jews took Yankee feminism, republicanism, anti-Europeanism and the worship of Blacks to new heights but they didn’t invent them.

    Been here before. But in brief:

    Dissenting Protestanism–and dissenting Protestant utopianism–is baked into America.

    But there is a substantial difference between “Everyone should behave like us!” and “Those flyover goyim racist oppressors suck!”

    And on several key issues–proper behavior, eugenics, third world hordes, and at the core “who are the role models”, “who does the country belong to”–the difference between early 20th century Protestant “Progressives” and modern “progressives” is day and night.

    **FYI “republicanism” has not remotely been “taken to new heights”. Republicanism–specifically ordinary citizens doing self-government, a very dissenting Protestant thing–is not something Jews are remotely interested in. It is no accident that we have become dramatically less democratic with the courts and bureaucracy now making all the decisions and working avidly to prevent the citizens from having a voice. It’s called “Our Democracy”.

    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    @AnotherDad


    **FYI “republicanism” has not remotely been “taken to new heights”.
     
    I'm looking at this from a Canadian Tory perspective, so I meant "republicanism" in the sense of being anti-monarchist. Being anti-European, anti-monarchist and defining America in opposition to the Old World was taken to new heights by the people I mentioned.
  193. @Jack D
    @Dave Pinsen

    I read about half of Cat Person and I grew too bored to read any further. A guy picks up a 20 year old (the protagonist though told in the 3rd person) who works at the concession stand of a movie theater. He is a bit older and he takes her on their first date to see a serious movie about the Holocaust. Even though she is supposed to be an intellectually serious person, she deems this inappropriate - he should have taken her to a rom-com for their first date. He in turn deems her outfit (leggings and a sweatshirt) in appropriate. Then he tries to take her to a bar but she gets carded so she begins to sob (surely the sign of a stable person). He then takes her to another bar. She doesn't know what grownups order at bars (usually her friends with fake ID order pitchers of PBR) so she says "a beer."

    At that point I grew bored and stopped reading. I really could care less what happened to these two characters. What utter drivel. So I skipped to the end. SPOILER ALERT


    She stops dating the guy and then he stalks her and harasses by text message and calls her a whore. The end. I have just saved you a half hour of your life that you will never get back.

    Is there ANY male author that would write such drivel? Any (non-gay) man who would be interested in reading this?

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen, @Ghddghh, @AnotherDad

    “I didn’t read most of the story and I don’t understand why it went viral”

    Thanks for that invaluable contribution to this thread, Jack D.

    • LOL: JimDandy, HammerJack
    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Dave Pinsen

    You're welcome. I read as much as I could take. Feel free to waste your own time.

    There are a lot of things that "go viral" among young people nowadays (e.g. monkeypox) that I have no interest in acquiring. I would say that the fact that something has "gone viral" in the Current Year is usually a good indication that you should steer well clear of whatever it is.

    Replies: @Mike Tre

  194. This is heartbreaking for writers who may, in fact, be brilliant, & critical of their own “privilege”.

    All of the great, and good, writers were published long ago. And the majority were men, though I am not making light of talented women writers. If young white men are going to complain that they weren’t chosen even though they are critical of their own “privilege” – well, who the hell needs them.

    • Replies: @middle-aged vet
    @Liza

    Liza said - "All of the great, and good, writers, were published long ago." Are you Chinese by the way? I kind of doubt it because Liza has two letters that Chinese people find hard to pronounce, but that being said, excessive ancestor worship is one of the worst things about Chinese culture, and you seem to be all in with ancestor worship.

    I will not be sending you free copies of my next novel no matter how much you beg.

    Replies: @Liza

  195. @martin_2
    @Dave Pinsen


    he takes the girl to a Holocaust movie on their first date
     
    That's nothing. I took a girl to a cemetary on our first date.

    Replies: @Kylie, @SFG, @JimDandy, @Jim Don Bob, @kaganovitch, @tyrone, @peterike, @Right_On

    I took a girl to a cemetary on our first date.

    Were Keats and Yeats on her side? But Oscar Wilde on yours?

  196. @Steve Sailer
    @Anonymous

    I'm a little vague on which of these now famous novelists were considered literary writers during their own time. Hammett, Chandler, and Cain are now major figures in American letters, but at the time they were considered more as successful pulp writers who happened to inspire classic movies. Fitzgerald was a huge celebrity in the 1920s, but was he considered a literary writer at the time?

    My impression is Hemingway was considered an important literary innovator from the late 1920s onward. Hemingway's connection to high art modernist types in Paris like Ezra Pound and Gertrude Stein assured that from the beginning he wasn't considered a pulp writer, even though the ease with which he could be read and his manly subject matter might otherwise suggest he was. The young Evelyn Waugh, a very self-consciously elitist modernist, always saw Hemingway as the giant who once and for all killed the ornate Victorian prose style that Waugh despised.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Mark G., @JimDandy, @mousey, @Chriscom, @njguy73, @Anon

    In a 2010 column, Bill James asked why we’re not good at finding literary talent, but so good at finding athletic talent. He concluded, we don’t need new Shakespeares because we still have the old one, but we need new Justin Verlanders because pitchers don’t last as long.

    https://www.billjamesonline.com/article1400/

  197. @Jim Don Bob
    @martin_2

    I took a girl on a first date to Fort Marcy Park where Vince Foster killed himself.

    Replies: @tyrone

    Fort Marcy Park where Vince Foster killed himself.

    ……..ya think?

    • Replies: @Rob McX
    @tyrone

    Arkancide.

  198. @Anon
    OT: Portia Odufuwa shot up a ticket counter at Love Field today. She should already be in jail because she's a former bank robber. This is what comes of not keeping criminal blacks in prison.

    https://www.dallasnews.com/news/2019/04/06/quick-action-by-employees-leads-to-arrest-of-wylie-bank-robbery-suspect-friday/

    https://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/dallas/article263802788.html

    Replies: @Alden, @Muggles

    This is what comes of not keeping criminal blacks in prison.

    Re: former female bank robber shooting up Love Field airport today.

    In Soros DA World, that is a feature, not a bug.

    And once they take your little gun away Mr., you’ll get yours…

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Muggles

    Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you Ms. Portia Odufuwa.

    From the name, either Nigerian or the offspring of Nigerians.

    https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/woman-shot-after-opening-fire-inside-dallas-love-field-airport-dallas-police/3030817/

    https://www.dallasnews.com/news/2019/04/06/quick-action-by-employees-leads-to-arrest-of-wylie-bank-robbery-suspect-friday/

    https://dmn-dallas-news-prod.cdn.arcpublishing.com/resizer/ZSnXE_PO-8k-NSkl-WkcCTZHpxw=/930x0/smart/filters:no_upscale()/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-dmn.s3.amazonaws.com/public/U6GNNIIGDAKKHA6ZOEZ62ZARLA.jpg

    The bank robbery was in April, 2019 so she got out of jail real fast. By the end of May the case was dismissed.

    https://unicourt.com/case/tx-cor-the-state-of-texas-vs-portia-sharletta-odufuwa-5640

    It was one of those things where you just hand a note to the teller ("I have a gub" - old Woody Allen movie reference) and I assume her first felony so it's somewhat understandable but I'm not so sure a white male would get the same deal.

    Today she shot a gun into the ceiling at the airport and got herself shot in the leg by the popo for her trouble. So far no one is blaming the police for shooting her. Yet.

    A bystander said Odufuwa said that her husband was cheating “and she was about to blow this sucker up.” That’s when she pulled out a gun and shot toward the ceiling. A Dallas police office who was there shot Odufuwa in the leg, ending the incident quickly.

    Replies: @AnotherDad

  199. @Tex
    @Anonymous


    What demand exists is satisfied by the huge corpus of old stuff.
     
    I can't speak for others, but in my circle of friends we tend to be voracious readers. I can't remember a single instance of anyone gushing over the new hotness from the NY publishers.

    My reading list is composed entirely of genre fiction, often in cheap e-book format, but with a fair amount gathered from used book stores. Why would I look for some woke chick-lit when I still haven't read The Killer Angels? I picked up a pile of '60s-era Tarzan paperbacks and enjoy them immensely. I have Willeford's Cockfighter on my list for a re-read. I have works by Barrington Bayley, A Merritt, Alan LeMay, and Gustav Meyrink waiting their turn. I haven't yet read Oakley Hall's Warlock, or Run Silent, Run Deep. The back-list is endless.

    I read a lot of non-fiction, which I think is typical of guys. There are new works regularly published about WWII, the Civil War, gangsters & lawmen, adventurers, explorers, and other guyish topics.

    Replies: @Nick Granite, @SunBakedSuburb

    Don’t forget Michael Shaara’s (Killer Angels) son Jeff who has wrote some damn good reads himself. I liked his “Rise to Rebellion” and “The Glorious Cause” novels on the Revolutionary War.

    • Thanks: Tex
  200. Anonymous[771] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon
    Nobody shoule care. As the article notes, very few white men are attracted to fiction writing. This isn't an industry the average white male is interested in, and those who are will probably be coming from privileged upper middle class backgrounds anyway -- not the kind of person who has to worry about a career path. Assuming this is true, anyway, and not the anecdotal blabbering of a middle aged white woman.

    Call me when white men are being discriminated against when applying for the types of jobs they love to do, like police officer, meterologist, politician, lawyer, mechanic, ag teacher, scout sniper, hot air balloon tour guide, circus owner, solar energy, wind turbine repair man, cameraman, small aircraft pilot, amateur porn producer, knifemaker, gun salesman, etc.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Thoughts, @NOTA, @Anonymous, @Mr. Anon, @throtler

    I have zero interest in any of those things, except to write about them.
    Stop discriminating against white males.

  201. @Dave Pinsen
    @JimDandy

    Yeah, agreed about the ending.

    But also, what turned the girl off about the guy seemed pretty fixable, and it's telling that none of the female reactions I'd seen to the story acknowledged that. You're willing to have sex with a man you hardly know, but not tell him how you like it? That's really more of a you problem, no?

    Replies: @JimDandy

    Yeah. Well, I think the author was fairly critical–but even handed–of the protagonist throughout. The part where she’s hiding from him amongst her giggling friends (I think?) was brutal. As for female reactions to the story, most women–and nearly all female readers of contemporary literary fiction–are incapable of seeing depictions of the male-female sex-drama in anything other than Manichean terms. Men are the antagonists, women are the infallible heroines. The bad things women do are all someone else’s fault and their self-destructive behavior is cute and poignant.

  202. @Abe
    @prosa123


    Is the part about him Doing the Dirty Deed with a piece of liver his family later ate also autobiographical?
     
    The Diceman worked that part into his act. Didn’t know he was such a connoisseur of literary fiction!

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BWzI_Wn0ZwM&t=6m59s

    Replies: @Malcolm X-Lax

    This reminds of the time Clay was on Howard Stern right after Robert Duval. Duval had made a couple of comments about Howard’s Jewishness–not disparaging, just…noticing–and when Clay comes on, he’s all bent out of shape about Duval. Howard seemed to have no problem with it. But this was the same Howard who could make a comment that Soon Yi-Previn has a face “like a catcher’s mitt” but then bitch and moan when Jaimie Pressley says he looks like he was “smacked with a yarmulke”. As usual, rules for thee but not for me.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    @Malcolm X-Lax

    Jackie the Jokeman had a great line about Dice when Dice was on the show in the '90s: "You're the opposite of Joey Buttafuoco: a fake Italian in real leather."

  203. As long as we are discussing fiction; what do the Men of UNZ think of Jonathan Kellerman’s books?

    I love them because they’re so well written. And I live part of the year in the part of the city where the stories take place. One of the protagonists. Alex, spends a lot of time just driving around. And it’s fun to read because I drive through the same streets, am familiar with the same places.

    And I hate them because they’re so totally PC and woke. For instance the other protagonist, Milo is gay, married and he and his partner are faithful always have been (LOL). For about the first ten books I just assumed Milo was black because so often authors combine two oppression victims in the same person. But Milo’s White.

  204. @Dave Pinsen
    @Jack D

    "I didn't read most of the story and I don't understand why it went viral"

    Thanks for that invaluable contribution to this thread, Jack D.

    Replies: @Jack D

    You’re welcome. I read as much as I could take. Feel free to waste your own time.

    There are a lot of things that “go viral” among young people nowadays (e.g. monkeypox) that I have no interest in acquiring. I would say that the fact that something has “gone viral” in the Current Year is usually a good indication that you should steer well clear of whatever it is.

    • Replies: @Mike Tre
    @Jack D

    As of 5:40pm you have 22 comments today. Wasting time seems to be your specialty.

    Maybe shut the laptop off and get a shvitz?

    Replies: @Jack D

  205. @Jack D
    @Dave Pinsen

    I read about half of Cat Person and I grew too bored to read any further. A guy picks up a 20 year old (the protagonist though told in the 3rd person) who works at the concession stand of a movie theater. He is a bit older and he takes her on their first date to see a serious movie about the Holocaust. Even though she is supposed to be an intellectually serious person, she deems this inappropriate - he should have taken her to a rom-com for their first date. He in turn deems her outfit (leggings and a sweatshirt) in appropriate. Then he tries to take her to a bar but she gets carded so she begins to sob (surely the sign of a stable person). He then takes her to another bar. She doesn't know what grownups order at bars (usually her friends with fake ID order pitchers of PBR) so she says "a beer."

    At that point I grew bored and stopped reading. I really could care less what happened to these two characters. What utter drivel. So I skipped to the end. SPOILER ALERT


    She stops dating the guy and then he stalks her and harasses by text message and calls her a whore. The end. I have just saved you a half hour of your life that you will never get back.

    Is there ANY male author that would write such drivel? Any (non-gay) man who would be interested in reading this?

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen, @Ghddghh, @AnotherDad

    The first time I ordered a drink in a bar I asked for “a beer”. My parents never drank, and I had no experience with drinking culture. “Gimme a beer” is what I heard on TV; I should paid more attention to the commercials.

    I suppose I could have said “I’ll have the usual”, then answered the inevitable follow-up with “whatever most people usually have”.

    It was embarrassing, but inconsequential; I soon discovered that I didn’t care for any kind of alcohol, and quickly stopped drinking any at all.

  206. @Muggles
    @Anon


    This is what comes of not keeping criminal blacks in prison.
     
    Re: former female bank robber shooting up Love Field airport today.

    In Soros DA World, that is a feature, not a bug.

    And once they take your little gun away Mr., you'll get yours...

    Replies: @Jack D

    Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you Ms. Portia Odufuwa.

    From the name, either Nigerian or the offspring of Nigerians.

    https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/woman-shot-after-opening-fire-inside-dallas-love-field-airport-dallas-police/3030817/

    https://www.dallasnews.com/news/2019/04/06/quick-action-by-employees-leads-to-arrest-of-wylie-bank-robbery-suspect-friday/

    The bank robbery was in April, 2019 so she got out of jail real fast. By the end of May the case was dismissed.

    https://unicourt.com/case/tx-cor-the-state-of-texas-vs-portia-sharletta-odufuwa-5640

    It was one of those things where you just hand a note to the teller (“I have a gub” – old Woody Allen movie reference) and I assume her first felony so it’s somewhat understandable but I’m not so sure a white male would get the same deal.

    Today she shot a gun into the ceiling at the airport and got herself shot in the leg by the popo for her trouble. So far no one is blaming the police for shooting her. Yet.

    A bystander said Odufuwa said that her husband was cheating “and she was about to blow this sucker up.” That’s when she pulled out a gun and shot toward the ceiling. A Dallas police office who was there shot Odufuwa in the leg, ending the incident quickly.

    • Replies: @AnotherDad
    @Jack D


    That’s when she pulled out a gun and shot toward the ceiling. A Dallas police office who was there shot Odufuwa in the leg, ending the incident quickly.
     
    Holy cow! An honest to goodness Biden cop.


    ~~~

    Count me as someone who thinks any society--that wants to survive--must enforce and pass on its norms.

    I want to live in (my separated) America where:
    -- this woman (or her parents) were never allowed in the country
    -- if we stupidly did, we expel her when she pulls the bank robber stunt
    -- the cops have better aim
  207. @Mike Tre
    @Ian Smith

    Nonsense

    Replies: @Ian Smith, @Adam Smith

    Care to elaborate?

  208. To paraphrase Gavin McInnes, fiction is gay, and getting inside some dude’s head is gayer than getting inside his rectum.

    Gays, BIPOCs, trannies, and biofrontholes can have these outmoded art forms and their defunct technologies. White men are living in the present, and forging the future. Today’s top novelists and poets are nonentities, but Russell Brand, Joe Rogan, Matt Taibbi, Cerno and Poso, to name but a few, draw millions of eyes, ears, hearts, and minds every day.

  209. @Jack D
    @Nicholas Stix

    I'm not so sure that is correct either. However, consensual relationships (black women as the concubines of their white masters) were quite common (and have been in all slave societies). Either the master would have a second (or more), black family on the side, in parallel to his white family (the white family might or might not know about their black half-siblings but even if they knew it was not something to be discussed or acknowledged outside of the family - within the family it might be completely accepted and taken for granted. Sometimes the white wife was OK with this, sometimes less so) or else maybe the white guy was a widower and the slave concubine became his wife for all intents and purposes except for legal status. BTW, I have known several white men who have had secret 2nd (white) families - often this only comes out after the man dies. Monogamy is not really the human norm. Sometimes masters treated their black children very well and had them educated as much as possible or set them up in trades. Others less so.

    You couldn't really consider this to be prostitution (or rape) except in the sense that all female/male relationship are prostitution (or rape). There are many (historically most) relationships where the male has greater income or power because historically most women had neither.

    Another typical relationship was between black slaves and indentured servants (of either sex). The status of indentured servants was not much different than that of slaves, except that their "slavery" was for a limited period while slaves served a "life sentence", so relationships between them were common. Some black male slaves had access to income - Washington's chef, Hercules, had a deal where he was allowed to sell the leftovers from Washington's kitchen in Philadelphia and thus considerable cash income. He was a sharp dresser and popular among the (white) servant girls.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @AnotherDad, @Nicholas Stix, @Bardon Kaldlan

    Monogamy is not really the human norm.

    Yes it is.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @Art Deco

    How many historical relationships would never have happened without societal pressure to marry?

  210. It’s been a long time since I’ve felt much interest in reading fiction. When I was a kid I thought there was something to learn there, I guess. But then I came to appreciate the high level of shit-for-brains in fiction authors. Genre fiction can work, but I’ve been there done that enough for a lifetime.

  211. @AnotherDad
    @Cagey Beast


    Blaming Anglo-American feminism on Jews has to be one of the weakest arguments out there. Feminism is something we cooked up ourselves or at least our Dissenter neighbours did:

    ...

    The Ellis Island Jews took Yankee feminism, republicanism, anti-Europeanism and the worship of Blacks to new heights but they didn’t invent them.
     

    Been here before. But in brief:

    Dissenting Protestanism--and dissenting Protestant utopianism--is baked into America.

    But there is a substantial difference between "Everyone should behave like us!" and "Those flyover goyim racist oppressors suck!"

    And on several key issues--proper behavior, eugenics, third world hordes, and at the core "who are the role models", "who does the country belong to"--the difference between early 20th century Protestant "Progressives" and modern "progressives" is day and night.


    **FYI "republicanism" has not remotely been "taken to new heights". Republicanism--specifically ordinary citizens doing self-government, a very dissenting Protestant thing--is not something Jews are remotely interested in. It is no accident that we have become dramatically less democratic with the courts and bureaucracy now making all the decisions and working avidly to prevent the citizens from having a voice. It's called "Our Democracy".

    Replies: @Cagey Beast

    **FYI “republicanism” has not remotely been “taken to new heights”.

    I’m looking at this from a Canadian Tory perspective, so I meant “republicanism” in the sense of being anti-monarchist. Being anti-European, anti-monarchist and defining America in opposition to the Old World was taken to new heights by the people I mentioned.

  212. Far from being Jewish dominated – as several commenters have asserted – the book publishing industry has – in its higher reaches – a Teutonic tinge.

    There are five major book publishers in the world: Penguin Random House, HarperCollins, Simon & Schuster, Hachette Book Group and Macmillan.

    It will come as no surprise that Simon & Schuster is Jewish-owned. The other four, not so much.

    Penguin Random House is a subsidiary of Bertlesmann, a private German company. Until recently it was headed by a former Lieutenant in the Luftwaffe and his family still own the business.

    The story is pretty much the same at Macmillan, now a subsidiary of Holtzbrinck Publishing Group, a private German company. Holtzbrinck’s founder joined the Nazi Party in 1933.

    HarperCollins is a subsidiary of News Corporation. News is controlled by the Murdoch family, which has deep Scottish Presbyterian roots (Rupe’s grandfather was Moderator-General of the Presbyterian Church of Victoria) although Rupert converted to Catholicism and is a Papal knight.

    Hachette Book Group is a subsidiary of Lagardère, a French company run by a French family.

  213. While we’re talking about female novelists, let me take a moment to recommend one. This debut novel was written by Kirsten Bakis and published in the dark days of the late ’90s patriarchy. It was original and excellent.

    I think it’s all the story she had in her though. She became a creative writing professor somewhere, IIRC.

    • Agree: Red Pill Angel
  214. @Jack D
    @Dave Pinsen

    I read about half of Cat Person and I grew too bored to read any further. A guy picks up a 20 year old (the protagonist though told in the 3rd person) who works at the concession stand of a movie theater. He is a bit older and he takes her on their first date to see a serious movie about the Holocaust. Even though she is supposed to be an intellectually serious person, she deems this inappropriate - he should have taken her to a rom-com for their first date. He in turn deems her outfit (leggings and a sweatshirt) in appropriate. Then he tries to take her to a bar but she gets carded so she begins to sob (surely the sign of a stable person). He then takes her to another bar. She doesn't know what grownups order at bars (usually her friends with fake ID order pitchers of PBR) so she says "a beer."

    At that point I grew bored and stopped reading. I really could care less what happened to these two characters. What utter drivel. So I skipped to the end. SPOILER ALERT


    She stops dating the guy and then he stalks her and harasses by text message and calls her a whore. The end. I have just saved you a half hour of your life that you will never get back.

    Is there ANY male author that would write such drivel? Any (non-gay) man who would be interested in reading this?

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen, @Ghddghh, @AnotherDad

    There’s all sorts of stories of various human interactions that you can cook up. They are interesting/not as stories of human interaction.

    But the over-arching theme here would be societal aimlessness. What is a 20 year old doing getting picked up by this much older guy? (If I understood some of the earlier comments.)

    A 20 year old girl, along with whatever studies or occupation should be using her time of youth and beauty to find a quality mate to build a family with. Yes, for some that may involve dating some different types of guys to figure out what “works” for her. It really should not involve “dating”–as in sleeping with–a bunch of different guys, as that just grinds away at her sexual bonding with her future husband. If she dates guys, it should be a rather merciless culling process. Won’t work–cut. Won’t work–cut. Ok this guy has potential …

    True enough, not everyone is on the “family track”. But it is the people on the “family track” who actually matter to a society.

    You can basically craft endless stories of people engaging in pointless sexual relationships … ok! (You can craft endless stories of people getting addicted to this and that also.) In the end, honestly not very interesting.

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    @AnotherDad

    A 20 year old girl, along with whatever studies or occupation should be using her time of youth and beauty to find a quality mate to build a family with.

    Well, Ms. Portia Odufuwa tried that and it turned out her husband was cheating!

  215. @JimDandy
    @Steve Sailer

    That's because Sally Rooney is a pretty good writer of contemporary fiction, which makes her an exceptional woman writer of contemporary fiction.

    Replies: @J.Ross

    Right. The pattern is that these idiots come out of academia, academia is the closest thing to a proper life experience any of them know, and in academia the whole game is the opposite of how publishing should work: status comes from having the rarest pokemon nobody had heard of before, not picking a popular winner or responsibly representing a topic.

    • Agree: JimDandy
  216. I’ve noticed on Amazon’s monthly woke book lists, a majority of authors with female names writing “woke chick-lit”.

    I wondered what happened to authors with male names, were they still writing, but not getting on any lists.

    Then I thought of sci-fi back in the day, when a few females wrote under male pen names. I wondered how many male authors are doing the same now, but with “chick-lit”.

  217. @Tex
    @SafeNow


    V.S. Naipaul famously/notoriously said that he could read a few paragraphs of a writer and tell you whether it was written by a man or a woman.
     
    It's not too hard to spot, particularly if the writer is relatively inexperienced. New writers channel their style less self-consciously. If you've seen the meme of the man and woman in bed with the woman's thought balloon an extended list of relationship issues the man might be thinking about while the man's thoughts are about his motorcycle's carburetor, then you've pretty much got the basics of how men's and women's fiction tends to differ.

    For instance, read some Raymond Chandler, then read Leigh Brackett's No Good From a Corpse, a pastiche of Chandler by the as-yet new Brackett. Philip Marlowe's interior thoughts are guy's thoughts, about the case, about political and social norms that impact his work, about trying to retain dignity in the face of corruption and deceit. Brackett's PI wonders what his friends are feeling. I laughed the PI was such a chick with a guy's name.

    The thing is Brackett developed a lot. She is in fact one of the finest writers of Golden Age SF. She could mix up Chandler's style with Edgar Rice Burrough's and make the planet Mars a glorious stage for adventures worthy of a John Ford Western.

    It's not that women writers are bad (90% of everything is crap after all) but different. But who wants to hear that nowadays?

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob, @Anon

    What is Leigh Brackett’s best book? I don’t want to start at the bottom.

    TIA.

    • Replies: @Tex
    @Jim Don Bob


    What is Leigh Brackett’s best book? I don’t want to start at the bottom.
     
    For my money, it is Sword of Rhiannon. It's a Sword & Planet fantasy complete with a sea-covered Mars, time travel, and one of the more twisted hero-heroine relationships to be found in the pulps. Martian galley slave indeed!

    Highly recommended, the early Eric John Stark stories and her Western novel, Follow the Free Wind.
  218. @Jack D
    @Dave Pinsen

    You're welcome. I read as much as I could take. Feel free to waste your own time.

    There are a lot of things that "go viral" among young people nowadays (e.g. monkeypox) that I have no interest in acquiring. I would say that the fact that something has "gone viral" in the Current Year is usually a good indication that you should steer well clear of whatever it is.

    Replies: @Mike Tre

    As of 5:40pm you have 22 comments today. Wasting time seems to be your specialty.

    Maybe shut the laptop off and get a shvitz?

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Mike Tre

    And tracking my comments seems to be your specialty. Get a life.

    Replies: @kaganovitch, @Mike Tre

  219. @Jack D
    @Nicholas Stix

    I'm not so sure that is correct either. However, consensual relationships (black women as the concubines of their white masters) were quite common (and have been in all slave societies). Either the master would have a second (or more), black family on the side, in parallel to his white family (the white family might or might not know about their black half-siblings but even if they knew it was not something to be discussed or acknowledged outside of the family - within the family it might be completely accepted and taken for granted. Sometimes the white wife was OK with this, sometimes less so) or else maybe the white guy was a widower and the slave concubine became his wife for all intents and purposes except for legal status. BTW, I have known several white men who have had secret 2nd (white) families - often this only comes out after the man dies. Monogamy is not really the human norm. Sometimes masters treated their black children very well and had them educated as much as possible or set them up in trades. Others less so.

    You couldn't really consider this to be prostitution (or rape) except in the sense that all female/male relationship are prostitution (or rape). There are many (historically most) relationships where the male has greater income or power because historically most women had neither.

    Another typical relationship was between black slaves and indentured servants (of either sex). The status of indentured servants was not much different than that of slaves, except that their "slavery" was for a limited period while slaves served a "life sentence", so relationships between them were common. Some black male slaves had access to income - Washington's chef, Hercules, had a deal where he was allowed to sell the leftovers from Washington's kitchen in Philadelphia and thus considerable cash income. He was a sharp dresser and popular among the (white) servant girls.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @AnotherDad, @Nicholas Stix, @Bardon Kaldlan

    Another element to understand is that in the early 19th century much of what’s now “the South” was frontier–and a frontier that was hot, buggy and disease ridden. And like much “frontier” short of women.

    My understanding–could easily be flawed–is that there was a chronic shortage of women as you went West. So while a successful planter or businessman might bring along, or go back and acquire, an appropriate white woman as his wife, many working men–say a skilled laborer like a blacksmith or wheelwright would not have a wife. But they might be able to bring along (or acquire) a black slave housekeeper/cook … and nature would take its course.

    There’s nothing unseemly about such relationships–men and women being complementary. No doubt many such relationships developed real love and affection. And only to modern “oppression!” ideology are such things “problematic”.

  220. @Art Deco
    @Jack D

    Monogamy is not really the human norm.

    Yes it is.

    Replies: @J.Ross

    How many historical relationships would never have happened without societal pressure to marry?

  221. @Jack D
    @Muggles

    Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you Ms. Portia Odufuwa.

    From the name, either Nigerian or the offspring of Nigerians.

    https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/woman-shot-after-opening-fire-inside-dallas-love-field-airport-dallas-police/3030817/

    https://www.dallasnews.com/news/2019/04/06/quick-action-by-employees-leads-to-arrest-of-wylie-bank-robbery-suspect-friday/

    https://dmn-dallas-news-prod.cdn.arcpublishing.com/resizer/ZSnXE_PO-8k-NSkl-WkcCTZHpxw=/930x0/smart/filters:no_upscale()/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-dmn.s3.amazonaws.com/public/U6GNNIIGDAKKHA6ZOEZ62ZARLA.jpg

    The bank robbery was in April, 2019 so she got out of jail real fast. By the end of May the case was dismissed.

    https://unicourt.com/case/tx-cor-the-state-of-texas-vs-portia-sharletta-odufuwa-5640

    It was one of those things where you just hand a note to the teller ("I have a gub" - old Woody Allen movie reference) and I assume her first felony so it's somewhat understandable but I'm not so sure a white male would get the same deal.

    Today she shot a gun into the ceiling at the airport and got herself shot in the leg by the popo for her trouble. So far no one is blaming the police for shooting her. Yet.

    A bystander said Odufuwa said that her husband was cheating “and she was about to blow this sucker up.” That’s when she pulled out a gun and shot toward the ceiling. A Dallas police office who was there shot Odufuwa in the leg, ending the incident quickly.

    Replies: @AnotherDad

    That’s when she pulled out a gun and shot toward the ceiling. A Dallas police office who was there shot Odufuwa in the leg, ending the incident quickly.

    Holy cow! An honest to goodness Biden cop.

    ~~~

    Count me as someone who thinks any society–that wants to survive–must enforce and pass on its norms.

    I want to live in (my separated) America where:
    — this woman (or her parents) were never allowed in the country
    — if we stupidly did, we expel her when she pulls the bank robber stunt
    — the cops have better aim

    • Agree: Kylie
  222. HA says:
    @Meretricious
    @Almost Missouri

    Why do people always characterize Ben Stiller as Jewish and not HALF Jewish and HALF Irish?

    Replies: @HA, @Almost Missouri

    “Why do people always characterize Ben Stiller as Jewish and not HALF Jewish and HALF Irish?”

    He’s all Jewish. From wikipedia:

    She converted to Judaism six years after marrying Stiller. She insisted that she did not convert at Stiller’s request, explaining, “Catholicism was dead to me”. She took her conversion seriously and studied the Jewish faith in such depth that her Jewish-born husband quipped, “Being married to Anne has made me more Jewish”.

  223. F4 confirms no mention of the insipid pseudo-intellectual Borat-book Lapvona (excrement-covered self-righteous Medieval Christian Europeans like to smell their own butts when not raping their own daughters and mutilating each other). Good. That’s not just because it’s that rare example of actual racism, it’s because Lapvona is wierdly dated. It’s just Kosinski’s Painted Bird set in Monty Python and the Holy Grail. In the future no one will have any time for Jewish obsessions, because Jewish mechanations will have hyper-focused everyone onto their own obsessions. Every obscurantist novel about a lesbian struggling to found a goat dairy takes us closer.
    ——
    Chinese plot foiled, sought to set up a sigint collection facility in a seventy-foot pagoda at the National Arboretum in DC. This sounds like a Simpsons subplot. Then again, the President is an employee of the Chinese government and is cool with China buying land next to our most important drone base. But pay no attention to our business partners, focus on Russia.
    https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/23/politics/fbi-investigation-huawei-china-defense-department-communications-nuclear/index.html

    • Replies: @HammerJack
    @J.Ross


    In the future no one will have any time for Jewish obsessions, because Jewish mechanations will have hyper-focused everyone onto their own obsessions.
     
    Another likely alternative is that decades of mass-media propaganda will have convinced everyone that jewish obsessions are actually their own. We may be there already.
  224. So we’ve gone from MLK, Jr.’s pre-“liberation” aspirational “content of character” standard to the modern post-“liberation” “disposition of your genitalia” standard and the “color of your skin” standard?

    But wait! Aren’t those last two standards the ones we wanted to get away from to achieve the “liberation” we wanted to achieve a “more perfect union”?

    I’m confused. I guess there’s a reason God invented Maker’s Mark and Sobieski.

  225. @Ian Smith
    I will say this about female authors: they write men much better than male authors write women. With the exception of The Mists of Avalon (shudder), I have never read fiction by a woman with unbelievable male characters, while even some otherwise talented male authors can write eye-rollingly ridiculous women.
    It HAS gotten better, though. American fiction written by men between 1920 and 1960 is the worst.

    Replies: @Mike Tre, @Tracy, @Guest87, @Blodgie, @J.Ross, @Bardon Kaldian

    I will say this about female authors: they write men much better than male authors write women.

    If so, they probably start with a female character, and then add reason and accountability.

  226. Bel Canto by Anne Patchett and The Secret History by Donna Tartt are among my favorite novels. Another favorite is The Paperboy by Pete Dexter, whose biography reads like you’d expect the biography of a male author of hard-boiled fiction to read.

    Donna Tartt’s biography reads like you’d expect the biography of a female novelist to read.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    @The Anti-Gnostic


    Donna Tartt’s biography reads like you’d expect the biography of a female novelist to read.
     
    I once saw an interview with Tartt, and she struck me as being unlike most other literary authors of her generation. She sounded interesting and as though she would have something interesting to say in a novel.

    I honestly can't think of many woman authors I'd care to read. Patricia Highsmith would be one (though I still haven't gotten round to reading anything by her). Tartt would be another.

    Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic

  227. @Mark G.
    @Steve Sailer


    I’m a little vague on which of these now famous novelists were considered literary writers during their own time. Hammett, Chandler, and Cain are now major figures in American letters, but at the time they were considered more as successful pulp writers who happened to inspire classic movies.
     
    I have a book called The World's Best Books from 1953 listing the three thousand best books of all time. Not one of those three authors is included. Those pulp writers weren't taken seriously then but they are still bought and read seventy years later where a lot of the authors that were considered important then are now almost completely forgotten. Some of them were already becoming forgotten before they even died. For example, Joseph Hergesheimer had four books listed in my book on the three thousand best books ever written but was lamenting to Mencken late in his life that no one read him anymore. The Big Sleep by Chandler has 3576 reviews at Amazon and is in the top 23 thousand in book sales while Java Head by Hergesheimer has 13 reviews and isn't even in the top nine million in sales.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Bardon Kaldian, @SunBakedSuburb

    “Those pulp writers weren’t taken seriously then but they are still bought and read seventy years later”

    Add to your list H.P. Lovecraft and Robert E. Howard. Genre fiction, particularly SF, Horror, Crime & Mystery, allows its writers to sustain influence long after they’re dead but dreaming.

    • Agree: Mark G.
  228. It’s a weird thing when people do something, deny doing it, and also say it’s a good thing. The SA did this, too, a lot in 1930s.

    • Agree: Abe
  229. OT Fresh off their failed attempt to defame then- Virginia gubernatorial candidate Glenn Youngkin with a lazy photo op, the Fake Nazis have launched a similarly lazy photo op to defame America’s most popular and effective governor, Ron DeSantis. This is the same thing as David Duke endorsing somebody, yet it’s aberrantly lazy for the internet age, it’s essential Edwardian technology.
    Notice the “Swastika Made Out of Floridæ.”
    Twitter thread under more tag so it doesn’t throw off the page load.

    [MORE]

    • Replies: @epebble
    @J.Ross

    Do those Nazi/Swastika flags trigger anyone younger than 60? it has been nearly 80 years since Hitler, and it is hard to see anyone taking those symbols seriously. At least the Confederate flag can trigger some Americans since it was part of our history. Nazi sounds even more ancient than accusing someone as Communist.

    Replies: @J.Ross

    , @Mr. Anon
    @J.Ross


    Notice the “Swastika Made Out of Floridæ.”
     
    You gotta admit that's kinda clever.

    What do Florida-Nazis wear? Brown Bermuda shorts? Armbands over their Ed Hardy shirts? Jack-flip-flops?

    Replies: @James J. O'Meara

    , @Nicholas Stix
    @J.Ross

    Isn't that a backwards Nazi swastika? If so, that's the dead giveaway of a "Nazi" hoax.

  230. @Cagey Beast
    @JimDandy

    Blaming Anglo-American feminism on Jews has to be one of the weakest arguments out there. Feminism is something we cooked up ourselves or at least our Dissenter neighbours did:

    Seneca Falls Convention
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seneca_Falls_Convention

    People should have a look at that Wikipedia entry and follow the links to get a sense of how deeply the roots of wokeness go. Continental Europe has its republican and anti-clerical strains of liberalism and progressivism but modern feminism is our baby.

    The Ellis Island Jews took Yankee feminism, republicanism, anti-Europeanism and the worship of Blacks to new heights but they didn't invent them.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @JimDandy, @AnotherDad, @Hibernian

    The Ellis Island Jews took Yankee feminism, republicanism, anti-Europeanism and the worship of Blacks to new heights but they didn’t invent them.

    This.

    • Replies: @JimDandy
    @Hibernian

    Who said they invented anything?

  231. @Steve Sailer
    @Cagey Beast

    Right, progressivism was likely existent by the time of the English Civil War in 1647:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putney_Debates

    I wouldn't be surprised if the ideology was existent in Shakespeare's time around 1600, but that we underestimate it back then because Shakespeare didn't exhibit much of it.

    Replies: @S Johnson, @JimDandy, @Bill P, @Hibernian, @Prester John

    …Shakespeare didn’t exhibit much of it.

    He was Catholic, a Recusant.

  232. I liked The Mandibles by (female) Lionel Shriver. The male characters were believable.

    The modern novel only dates to 1800 or so. Writing and reading novels could turn out to just have been a couple-hundred-year-long fad, like hats or representative government. It may be men are moving on to the next literary forms while women ring the changes in novels for another few decades.

    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist
    @Faraday's Bobcat

    I just read Shriver's We Need to Talk about Kevin. I liked it a lot. I'm planning on giving The Mandibles a go.

    , @JimDandy
    @Faraday's Bobcat

    Shriver is a total anomaly among contemporary female literary fiction writers. She hates the censoring constraints wokeness has put on the art form and she's vocal about it. Somehow she seems to have survived. I am surprised, though, that The Mandibles isn't being talked about more right now, so... maybe she's being kind of soft-cancelled.

  233. @Jimmy1969
    Public libraries are completely co opted from the far woke left. A quick review of the new book shelf will reveal a praising bio of George Floyd, another of Hillary another pro abortion book, another extolling the greatness of Israel, two to three savaging Trump. Another praising Joe Biden. The fiction writers are almost all NYC Jews...mostly women. Oh and a couple books about how hard done the Natives are and that they deserve more money. Of course one or two on slavery too.

    Replies: @Hibernian

    The American Library Association was until recently located near the office where I work. They had signs saying “Libraries: Because not everything on the Internet is true.” This ignores the fact that not everything in the library is true either.

  234. Anon[316] • Disclaimer says:
    @Tex
    @SafeNow


    V.S. Naipaul famously/notoriously said that he could read a few paragraphs of a writer and tell you whether it was written by a man or a woman.
     
    It's not too hard to spot, particularly if the writer is relatively inexperienced. New writers channel their style less self-consciously. If you've seen the meme of the man and woman in bed with the woman's thought balloon an extended list of relationship issues the man might be thinking about while the man's thoughts are about his motorcycle's carburetor, then you've pretty much got the basics of how men's and women's fiction tends to differ.

    For instance, read some Raymond Chandler, then read Leigh Brackett's No Good From a Corpse, a pastiche of Chandler by the as-yet new Brackett. Philip Marlowe's interior thoughts are guy's thoughts, about the case, about political and social norms that impact his work, about trying to retain dignity in the face of corruption and deceit. Brackett's PI wonders what his friends are feeling. I laughed the PI was such a chick with a guy's name.

    The thing is Brackett developed a lot. She is in fact one of the finest writers of Golden Age SF. She could mix up Chandler's style with Edgar Rice Burrough's and make the planet Mars a glorious stage for adventures worthy of a John Ford Western.

    It's not that women writers are bad (90% of everything is crap after all) but different. But who wants to hear that nowadays?

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob, @Anon

    I’ve always said you could tell the difference between fantasy written by men and women easily. When Brak the Barbarian reaches town, the first thing he wants is a hunch of meat and a hot woman (if written by a man). But when Brak is written by a woman, the first thing he wants back in civilization is a hot bath.

  235. @Thoughts
    @Anon

    This comment is so dumb it's astounding

    The best male writers tend to come from Uber-Male Careers

    Raymond Chandler was an Oil Exec before writing his books

    So let's say one of your Non-Discriminated Against White Men is a Sheriff or top Homicide Detective

    Should he not get his books published?

    How about a Male Doctor in the vein of Tess Gerritsen?

    What about an Engineer?

    How about a male Psychologist?

    These are all upper middle class

    The truth is, men write better books. I like Tess Gerritsen...Heck I like Charlene Harris, but Raymond Chandler, Ian Flemming and Tom Wolfe are Divine

    Women authors are Just Women authors--largely enjoyable tripe to pass a Sunday afternoon...and women can suppress this truth all they want and lie to themselves, but eventually even a woman wants to read a d**mn fine book and they ain't going to be reaching for a woman author

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @astrolabe, @Anon, @gepay

    Growing up with 2 older sisters and a father who read tons of science fiction I immediately liked Ursula LeGuinn’s scifi. People had feelings which influenced what they did. Like to paraphrase: a conqueror of a planet thinks to himself when he wants to take to bed the wife of the former ruler – :of course she’s not in the mood for sex with me, I just killed her husband of 10 years.” Something you’d never come close to in Heinlein or Asimov or Clarke scifi. So I didn’t mind at all the entrance of female science fiction writers. But trends are pendulum like, The trends have swung entirely too far for me in the woke direction. I grew in the 50s and the atmosphere was definitely homophobic with systemic racism. I’m not a biologist but I know what a woman is. The way things have gone have definitely worked out for my daughter who became a veterinary pathologist. She didn’t have any probems with male dominance that she would have had if she had been my age. She earned her position. Females are better suited for the education of today. Males are still better suited for many other areas and don’t have periods.

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    @gepay

    Males are still better suited for many other areas and don’t have periods.

    Your eventual cancellation is a forgone conclusion. This whole male female dichotomy is benighted. It's 'people who menstruate', you hater.

  236. @Steve Sailer
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Guys write books like, "Man gets trapped on desert island. How can he survive until he's rescued" or "Astronaut gets trapped on Mars. How can he survive until he's rescued?"

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @SunBakedSuburb

    Your two pitches are redolent of how-to manuals. They need monsters.

  237. “Are we really going to say that 15 years ago, black women weren’t writing good books?”

    Are they presently?

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    @jamie b.

    Are they presently?

    It's like that line from the late Mitch Hedberg, God rest his soul. "I used to do drugs. I mean I still do but I used to also."

  238. @martin_2
    @Dave Pinsen


    he takes the girl to a Holocaust movie on their first date
     
    That's nothing. I took a girl to a cemetary on our first date.

    Replies: @Kylie, @SFG, @JimDandy, @Jim Don Bob, @kaganovitch, @tyrone, @peterike, @Right_On

    That’s nothing. I took a girl to a cemetery on our first date.

    Rose de Fer (English: The Iron Rose) is a 1973 horror drama, directed by Jean Rollin, in which a young couple, on a first date, spend the night lost in a vast cemetery. Madness ensues.

  239. @Tex
    @Anonymous


    What demand exists is satisfied by the huge corpus of old stuff.
     
    I can't speak for others, but in my circle of friends we tend to be voracious readers. I can't remember a single instance of anyone gushing over the new hotness from the NY publishers.

    My reading list is composed entirely of genre fiction, often in cheap e-book format, but with a fair amount gathered from used book stores. Why would I look for some woke chick-lit when I still haven't read The Killer Angels? I picked up a pile of '60s-era Tarzan paperbacks and enjoy them immensely. I have Willeford's Cockfighter on my list for a re-read. I have works by Barrington Bayley, A Merritt, Alan LeMay, and Gustav Meyrink waiting their turn. I haven't yet read Oakley Hall's Warlock, or Run Silent, Run Deep. The back-list is endless.

    I read a lot of non-fiction, which I think is typical of guys. There are new works regularly published about WWII, the Civil War, gangsters & lawmen, adventurers, explorers, and other guyish topics.

    Replies: @Nick Granite, @SunBakedSuburb

    “genre fiction”

    It’s where it’s at. The Literary market shrank amongst male readers after WW2 — The Big One. Us guys got hooked on paperbacks with rocketships and cutthroat dames and guns-a-blazing on the covers. But not on the same cover.

    “A. Merritt.”

    Interesting speculative fiction writer who got his start in the pre-war pulps. The Moon Pool is great.

    “Tex”

    You might be interested in Larry McMurtry’s Lonesome Dove quartet. It follows the adventures of Texas Rangers Call and McCrae. Scots-Irish and Irish. But there are other characters who don’t share Call and McCrae’s august bloodlines. Outstanding reads and I’m not a Western buff (unless you count Cormac McCarthy’s Blood Meridian a Western).

    • Replies: @Tex
    @SunBakedSuburb


    You might be interested in Larry McMurtry’s Lonesome Dove quartet. It follows the adventures of Texas Rangers Call and McCrae. Scots-Irish and Irish. But there are other characters who don’t share Call and McCrae’s august bloodlines. Outstanding reads and I’m not a Western buff (unless you count Cormac McCarthy’s Blood Meridian a Western).
     
    McMurtry has some good stuff and I need to read more of it. Blood Meridian is fantastic (I think I've read it four times).

    A lot of the pulp Westerns are quite good, but fly under the radar. It seems Louis L'Amour and Zane Gray are the only widely-known names, outside of hard core Western fans. Luke Short, Elmore Leonard, TV Olsen, HA De Rosso, Brian Garfield, Bill Crider, James Reasoner, and EC Tubb are just a few of the many excellent writers who ought to be more widely known as Western writers.
  240. @AnotherDad
    @Jack D

    There's all sorts of stories of various human interactions that you can cook up. They are interesting/not as stories of human interaction.

    But the over-arching theme here would be societal aimlessness. What is a 20 year old doing getting picked up by this much older guy? (If I understood some of the earlier comments.)

    A 20 year old girl, along with whatever studies or occupation should be using her time of youth and beauty to find a quality mate to build a family with. Yes, for some that may involve dating some different types of guys to figure out what "works" for her. It really should not involve "dating"--as in sleeping with--a bunch of different guys, as that just grinds away at her sexual bonding with her future husband. If she dates guys, it should be a rather merciless culling process. Won't work--cut. Won't work--cut. Ok this guy has potential ...

    True enough, not everyone is on the "family track". But it is the people on the "family track" who actually matter to a society.

    You can basically craft endless stories of people engaging in pointless sexual relationships ... ok! (You can craft endless stories of people getting addicted to this and that also.) In the end, honestly not very interesting.

    Replies: @kaganovitch

    A 20 year old girl, along with whatever studies or occupation should be using her time of youth and beauty to find a quality mate to build a family with.

    Well, Ms. Portia Odufuwa tried that and it turned out her husband was cheating!

  241. @Mike Tre
    @Ian Smith

    Nonsense

    Replies: @Ian Smith, @Adam Smith

    • Thanks: Mike Tre
  242. @Anon
    Nobody shoule care. As the article notes, very few white men are attracted to fiction writing. This isn't an industry the average white male is interested in, and those who are will probably be coming from privileged upper middle class backgrounds anyway -- not the kind of person who has to worry about a career path. Assuming this is true, anyway, and not the anecdotal blabbering of a middle aged white woman.

    Call me when white men are being discriminated against when applying for the types of jobs they love to do, like police officer, meterologist, politician, lawyer, mechanic, ag teacher, scout sniper, hot air balloon tour guide, circus owner, solar energy, wind turbine repair man, cameraman, small aircraft pilot, amateur porn producer, knifemaker, gun salesman, etc.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Thoughts, @NOTA, @Anonymous, @Mr. Anon, @throtler

    It matters who speaks for a culture. A culture without the voices of white men is going to be………..well, a lot like the culture we have today. It is because white men are retreating from jobs that define the culture, or being forced out of them, that it is possible to marginalize all of them, including your mechanic, gun salesman, or wind turbine repairman.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Mr. Anon

    Except white men aren't marginalized and being in writing has done jack shit to advance women's interests (look aroud you, the anti-feminist movement, aborton banned, birth control next, feminism is dead). White men are stronger than ever in the 21st century, women writing didn't hurt them a bit.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon

  243. Women who achieve at a high level in a typically male dominated field tend to have strong fathers in their lives, I suspect. Can anybody think of a database for testing this?

    You might try the NLSY (National Longitudinal Survey of Youth). You would be able to find variables providing some measure of female achievement in a male-dominated field. You would probably have to put together some proxy of “strong father” (was present, was employed, earned well, etc.). There are thousands of variables and something is likely to work.

    On the other hand, remembering Judith Rich Harris’ The Nurture Assumption, twin studies pretty much concluded that the parental contribution is genetic, and most of the non-genetic variation in behavior is conditioned by peer effects. So maybe a better variable would be mother success in male-dominated fields. Might be worth giving that a look too.

  244. @Jimmy1969
    Young white male Christian Authors ...not Jews. A supercial canvass of the new book section of my public library where you first walk in: Sympathetic Bio of George Floyd.....Bio of Hillary Clinton...2 hate books against Trump...couple books about LGBTQ stuff, one on all the bad things we did to the Indians...another how great Israel is....another extolling the virtues of Stacy Abrahams. Another pro abortion. The fiction books ....mostly NYC Jewish...80% female.

    Replies: @AnotherDad, @Unintended Consequence

    If the pompous, dimwitted, obstreperous, narcissist-to-the-point-of-implosion Trump manages to get reelected, I’ll be cranking out Trump hate-stories as fast as I can type.

  245. OT Brooklyn preacher, Rolls-Royce aficianado and friend of Mayor Eric Adams robbed of a million dollars in jewelry, and during a sermon.
    I know which party is closer to God here. I ain’t even mad, I’m impressed. This is like Detroit’s own Marcellus Cornwall, who built a pot vending machine in his front yard. Governor Sancho Panza would let them keep the loot.
    https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/25/us/brooklyn-pastor-robbery/index.html

  246. @HammerJack

    Sutton believes this is because “the cultural moment belongs to women”, whose stories “seem to feel more fresh”.
     
    But of course. And shall we give them TV too? Since it's about 90% female-oriented as well?

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldlan

    The future is female!😉
    You see,the world has changed,and the skills men provide are not needed anymore. Its the ” soft skills” of (white) women that are in demand!😇 We need to fight racism and sexism and then we will all be free or something.😮

    • Replies: @HammerJack
    @Bardon Kaldlan

    Yes, thank you. Now will you be so kind as to explain what your relationship with Bardon Kaldian is? Your names are awfully similar. Is it an MPD pronoun kind of thing?

    Replies: @PiltdownMan

  247. @The Anti-Gnostic
    Bel Canto by Anne Patchett and The Secret History by Donna Tartt are among my favorite novels. Another favorite is The Paperboy by Pete Dexter, whose biography reads like you'd expect the biography of a male author of hard-boiled fiction to read.

    Donna Tartt's biography reads like you'd expect the biography of a female novelist to read.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon

    Donna Tartt’s biography reads like you’d expect the biography of a female novelist to read.

    I once saw an interview with Tartt, and she struck me as being unlike most other literary authors of her generation. She sounded interesting and as though she would have something interesting to say in a novel.

    I honestly can’t think of many woman authors I’d care to read. Patricia Highsmith would be one (though I still haven’t gotten round to reading anything by her). Tartt would be another.

    • Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic
    @Mr. Anon

    Yes, she's pretty iconoclastic actually. Spinster tomboy who cares very little about the literary world or being popular and making lots of money.

    I was thinking more about the preppy upbringing, Classical education, and celibate, maidenly lifestyle.

    Replies: @SFG

  248. @JimDandy
    @Dave Pinsen

    "Cat Person" was a good story primarily because it was an honest, warts-and-all look into the modern young woman's brain (and other organs)--but that ending basically negated all its virtues. So forced and polemically-pat in contrast to everything leading up to it that I suspect she was essentially forced to insert it in place of some other ending.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen, @Jack D

    You definitely don’t want warts on your organs.

  249. Anon[130] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    @Anonymous

    I'm a little vague on which of these now famous novelists were considered literary writers during their own time. Hammett, Chandler, and Cain are now major figures in American letters, but at the time they were considered more as successful pulp writers who happened to inspire classic movies. Fitzgerald was a huge celebrity in the 1920s, but was he considered a literary writer at the time?

    My impression is Hemingway was considered an important literary innovator from the late 1920s onward. Hemingway's connection to high art modernist types in Paris like Ezra Pound and Gertrude Stein assured that from the beginning he wasn't considered a pulp writer, even though the ease with which he could be read and his manly subject matter might otherwise suggest he was. The young Evelyn Waugh, a very self-consciously elitist modernist, always saw Hemingway as the giant who once and for all killed the ornate Victorian prose style that Waugh despised.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Mark G., @JimDandy, @mousey, @Chriscom, @njguy73, @Anon

    My impression is Hemingway was considered an important literary innovator from the late 1920s onward.

    Michael Reynolds wrote a five-volume biography of Hemingway. Volume 2 is The Paris Years, which I read after watching Woody Allen’s hilarious and interesting Midnight in Paris, in which Owen Wilson time travels back to 1920s Paris. After seeing that I wanted to read about the expat scene in Paris, and the Reynolds book was just the thing. It covers the important part of Hemingway’s development, but also deals with the other expats lurking about in Paris at the time and the general ambience. As a longtime expat myself, in Tokyo, I recognized all the dramatis personae: the same characters turn up time and time again across the ages in expat communities. Hemingway filled the shoes of “the pretentious asshole writer” of his time and place (although unlike most, he had talent and wasn’t a faker). His wife seemed really sweet; pity about her husband.

  250. @Mike Tre
    @Jack D

    As of 5:40pm you have 22 comments today. Wasting time seems to be your specialty.

    Maybe shut the laptop off and get a shvitz?

    Replies: @Jack D

    And tracking my comments seems to be your specialty. Get a life.

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    @Jack D

    And tracking my comments seems to be your specialty. Get a life.

    Old joke: A man tells his wife "You see that guy over there? He's been doing nothing but wasting time for the last 4 hours!" The wife asks " How do you know?" He responds "I've been watching him."

    Replies: @Mike Tre

    , @Mike Tre
    @Jack D

    Ooh, that was a real zinger! It took me a lot less time to count up your comments today than it does for you to scan wikipedia about some topic because you're obsessed with coming across as an expert on everything.

    Get a life? You should get some self-awareness as well!

  251. @Erik Sieven
    @White Guy In Japan

    which author would be good to try this genre?

    Replies: @White Guy In Japan

    My three favorites are Christopher G. Moore, Jake Needham and John Burdett. All available on Kindle.

    For more info:
    https://crimereads.com/bangkoks-expat-crime-fiction-scene-is-booming/
    https://thediplomat.com/2016/05/bangkok-noir-crime-fiction-in-the-city-of-angels/

    • Replies: @Erik Sieven
    @White Guy In Japan

    Thanks!

  252. @Rich
    @White Guy In Japan

    Any recommendations?

    Replies: @White Guy In Japan

    My three favorites are Christopher G. Moore, Jake Needham and John Burdett. All available on Kindle.

    For more info:
    https://crimereads.com/bangkoks-expat-crime-fiction-scene-is-booming/
    https://thediplomat.com/2016/05/bangkok-noir-crime-fiction-in-the-city-of-angels/

  253. @Mr. Anon
    @Anon

    It matters who speaks for a culture. A culture without the voices of white men is going to be...........well, a lot like the culture we have today. It is because white men are retreating from jobs that define the culture, or being forced out of them, that it is possible to marginalize all of them, including your mechanic, gun salesman, or wind turbine repairman.

    Replies: @Anon

    Except white men aren’t marginalized and being in writing has done jack shit to advance women’s interests (look aroud you, the anti-feminist movement, aborton banned, birth control next, feminism is dead). White men are stronger than ever in the 21st century, women writing didn’t hurt them a bit.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    @Anon


    Except white men aren’t marginalized and being in writing has done jack shit to advance women’s interests (look aroud you, the anti-feminist movement, aborton banned, birth control next, feminism is dead).
     
    Abortion - or as you term it "aborton" - hasn't been banned. Nor is birth control going to be banned. Nor is feminism in any way dead.

    White men are stronger than ever in the 21st century, women writing didn’t hurt them a bit.
     
    No, they are not. You are a fool. And, as is apparent, an idiot.

    Replies: @Anon

  254. @Faraday's Bobcat
    I liked The Mandibles by (female) Lionel Shriver. The male characters were believable.

    The modern novel only dates to 1800 or so. Writing and reading novels could turn out to just have been a couple-hundred-year-long fad, like hats or representative government. It may be men are moving on to the next literary forms while women ring the changes in novels for another few decades.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @JimDandy

    I just read Shriver’s We Need to Talk about Kevin. I liked it a lot. I’m planning on giving The Mandibles a go.

  255. @kaganovitch
    @Bardon Kaldian

    One big difference is that serious male fiction readers, with very few exceptions, are not too much interested in other races & cultures.

    Doesn't Kipling's enduring popularity argue against that, somewhat? While his point of view is , of course, Western, his appeal comes from that peek into the exotic, no?

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @PiltdownMan

    Over the decades, Kipling has had more than one fan among Indian intellectuals (aside from those who’ve professed, de rigueur, to desipse him), who’ve argued that he was a special case, and that his insights are those of an insider and resident, rather than being foreign and alien. I’ll find the essay if I can find it, but I remember reading an essay on Kipling by some Indian guy who argued that his prose is unique, because it translates almost perfectly into Hindustani. Meanwhile, here’s another essay on Kipling, by an Indian.

    https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v22/n01/amit-chaudhuri/a-feather!-a-very-feather-upon-the-face

    • Thanks: kaganovitch
  256. @Woodsie
    Gatekeeping: The Lost Generation is today defined by Fitzgerald and Hemingway, one the aristocrat the other the high school grad who redefined the novel by keeping his sentences short. But the true giant of their generation was John Dos Passos, to whom Hemingway would send his manuscripts before submitting them to his editors. "Papa" and "Dos" were close friends, with shared experiences during the Great War as ambulance drivers. Both wrote early novels about the war, and both were sympathetic to the ideals of socialism. But during the Spanish Civil War, while the two were working on a documentary, Dos broke with the socialists/communists. He was impossible to cancel at that time, three of his novels having been combined into the epic USA trilogy, but he was slowly supplanted by Papa, in both the publishing industry and academia because of his rightward swing. Still, any serious student of literature has to acknowledge Dos as the greater writer; USA alone being reason enough, but there is more. Number One, about a Huey Long type southern politician, was published before All The Kings Men and is more readable (he took a break from the ground-breaking style of USA to create a more conventional novel), and Mid-Century, published in 1961 and in a return to his innovative literary form, spent 15 weeks on the NY Times best seller list. But, his anti-communism ultimately earned him a spot in the memory hole, with Papa now being considered the greatest American writer of the 20th century, in spite of Dos Passos' telling criticism, "You never have to reach for a dictionary when reading Hemingway." I doubt there is a single course in today's university's studying Dos Passos.

    Replies: @kaganovitch

    I doubt there is a single course in today’s university’s studying Dos Passos.

    A web search turns up dozens i.e. at Stanford – AMSTUD 125C: The Lost Generation: American literature between the World Wars (ENGLISH 125C)
    This course explores American literature between the World Wars, tracing how themes of trauma, loss, disillusion, and dislocation, as well as issues of race, gender, and class, engendered vibrant “modernist” literary experimentation in this era. Writers may include John Dos Passos, Sherwood Anderson, Willa Cather, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Ernest Hemingway, Jean Toomer, Nella Larsen, William Faulkner, and Tillie Olsen.

    At Rutgers – 21:352:343,344 American Literature of the 20th and 21st Centuries (3,3)
    Major fiction, poetry, and other writing by Dreiser, Anderson, Hemingway, Fitzgerald, Eliot, O’Neill, Dos Passos, Frost, Faulkner, or other recent American authors.

    At FSU – 4121: The 20th-Century American Novel
    This course typically covers Dreiser, Dos Passos, Fitzgerald, Hemingway, Faulkner, Bellow, and Wright.

    At NYU – ENGL-UA 635 Formerly American Fiction Before World War II. Offered periodically. 4 points.
    Literary movements and social contexts in a period of remarkable innovation. Focus on realism, naturalism, modernism, and contemporary eclectic style. Novels by Theodore Dreiser, John Dos Passos, Willa Cather, Ernest Hemingway, F. Scott Fitzgerald, William Faulkner, Saul Bellow, and Ralph Ellison, as well as short fiction and critical and cultural essays.
    ]

    etc., etc.

    • Replies: @Woodsie
    @kaganovitch

    While it's gratifying to see he is included in overview courses (although I detect weasel words: "may include," "typically covers," "..or other recent authors"), when I was in school forty years ago I took whole semesters studying single authors, particularly Fitzgerald and Faulkner. My older brother turned me on to Dos Passos' USA much later in life.

    And as long as I'm back on the case, let me mention that Dos also wrote amazing straight history books. The Ground We Stand On covers the invention of American political philosophy (especially featuring Roger Williams, Joel Barlow, and Alexander Hamilton); The World Turned Upside Down, summed up by its subtitle, The men who made the nation is a political history of the early days of the republic, Shackles of Power intensively examines the political influence of Thomas Jefferson over three decades; Wilson's War takes on American policy and politics during the Great War. None are breezy reads, but all are fascinating, any of which could be the foundation of an American History course. Sadly, not a single one of these volumes remains in print.

  257. @Faraday's Bobcat
    I liked The Mandibles by (female) Lionel Shriver. The male characters were believable.

    The modern novel only dates to 1800 or so. Writing and reading novels could turn out to just have been a couple-hundred-year-long fad, like hats or representative government. It may be men are moving on to the next literary forms while women ring the changes in novels for another few decades.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @JimDandy

    Shriver is a total anomaly among contemporary female literary fiction writers. She hates the censoring constraints wokeness has put on the art form and she’s vocal about it. Somehow she seems to have survived. I am surprised, though, that The Mandibles isn’t being talked about more right now, so… maybe she’s being kind of soft-cancelled.

  258. @J.Ross
    OT Fresh off their failed attempt to defame then- Virginia gubernatorial candidate Glenn Youngkin with a lazy photo op, the Fake Nazis have launched a similarly lazy photo op to defame America's most popular and effective governor, Ron DeSantis. This is the same thing as David Duke endorsing somebody, yet it's aberrantly lazy for the internet age, it's essential Edwardian technology.
    Notice the "Swastika Made Out of Floridæ."
    Twitter thread under more tag so it doesn't throw off the page load.

    https://twitter.com/CarlosGSmith/status/1551330555362529281

    Replies: @epebble, @Mr. Anon, @Nicholas Stix

    Do those Nazi/Swastika flags trigger anyone younger than 60? it has been nearly 80 years since Hitler, and it is hard to see anyone taking those symbols seriously. At least the Confederate flag can trigger some Americans since it was part of our history. Nazi sounds even more ancient than accusing someone as Communist.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @epebble

    ... well, the fake hoax photo op is intended for leftard twitter, but also, dude, it's Florida, every third person is a retired Jew (which is the loudest and angriest kind).

  259. @gepay
    @Thoughts

    Growing up with 2 older sisters and a father who read tons of science fiction I immediately liked Ursula LeGuinn's scifi. People had feelings which influenced what they did. Like to paraphrase: a conqueror of a planet thinks to himself when he wants to take to bed the wife of the former ruler - :of course she's not in the mood for sex with me, I just killed her husband of 10 years." Something you'd never come close to in Heinlein or Asimov or Clarke scifi. So I didn't mind at all the entrance of female science fiction writers. But trends are pendulum like, The trends have swung entirely too far for me in the woke direction. I grew in the 50s and the atmosphere was definitely homophobic with systemic racism. I'm not a biologist but I know what a woman is. The way things have gone have definitely worked out for my daughter who became a veterinary pathologist. She didn't have any probems with male dominance that she would have had if she had been my age. She earned her position. Females are better suited for the education of today. Males are still better suited for many other areas and don't have periods.

    Replies: @kaganovitch

    Males are still better suited for many other areas and don’t have periods.

    Your eventual cancellation is a forgone conclusion. This whole male female dichotomy is benighted. It’s ‘people who menstruate’, you hater.

  260. @jamie b.
    "Are we really going to say that 15 years ago, black women weren’t writing good books?”

    Are they presently?

    Replies: @kaganovitch

    Are they presently?

    It’s like that line from the late Mitch Hedberg, God rest his soul. “I used to do drugs. I mean I still do but I used to also.”

  261. @Anon
    @Mr. Anon

    Except white men aren't marginalized and being in writing has done jack shit to advance women's interests (look aroud you, the anti-feminist movement, aborton banned, birth control next, feminism is dead). White men are stronger than ever in the 21st century, women writing didn't hurt them a bit.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon

    Except white men aren’t marginalized and being in writing has done jack shit to advance women’s interests (look aroud you, the anti-feminist movement, aborton banned, birth control next, feminism is dead).

    Abortion – or as you term it “aborton” – hasn’t been banned. Nor is birth control going to be banned. Nor is feminism in any way dead.

    White men are stronger than ever in the 21st century, women writing didn’t hurt them a bit.

    No, they are not. You are a fool. And, as is apparent, an idiot.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Mr. Anon


    Abortion – or as you call it “aborton” – hasn’t been banned.
     
    In huge swaths of America , including the fastest growing state of Texas, it will vlbe.

    Nor is birth control going to be banned
     

    Oh yes it will be.

    Nor is feminism in any way dead.
     
    The response to the Roe v. Wade overturning would have been far more palpable 30 years ago.

    No, they are not.
     
    Give me one reason why that is the case. You can't do it.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon

  262. @J.Ross
    OT Fresh off their failed attempt to defame then- Virginia gubernatorial candidate Glenn Youngkin with a lazy photo op, the Fake Nazis have launched a similarly lazy photo op to defame America's most popular and effective governor, Ron DeSantis. This is the same thing as David Duke endorsing somebody, yet it's aberrantly lazy for the internet age, it's essential Edwardian technology.
    Notice the "Swastika Made Out of Floridæ."
    Twitter thread under more tag so it doesn't throw off the page load.

    https://twitter.com/CarlosGSmith/status/1551330555362529281

    Replies: @epebble, @Mr. Anon, @Nicholas Stix

    Notice the “Swastika Made Out of Floridæ.”

    You gotta admit that’s kinda clever.

    What do Florida-Nazis wear? Brown Bermuda shorts? Armbands over their Ed Hardy shirts? Jack-flip-flops?

    • Replies: @James J. O'Meara
    @Mr. Anon

    IIRC, the Brownshirts wore brown shirts because they were (at least to start) war surplus, from the Afrika Korps. So I guess that was the warm weather garb.

    As modelled by Dark Helmet himself:

    https://tenor.com/view/combing-the-desert-space-balls-found-anything-nothing-yet-s-ir-literal-jokes-gif-10465625

    Replies: @Mr. Anon

  263. ==QUOTE== But the concept that whites white men seems hard for many people with literary turns of mind to grasp these days. ==UNQUOTE==

    The concept that “whites white men” is hard for me to grasp too. I don’t even know how to pronounce “”, much less figure out what it means. (Is it a verb?)

  264. @Abe

    Women wrote between 31% and 41% in the first four decades, before dropping with coming of WWII (which I’m guessing provided men with lots of great material).
     
    Bingo! Hemingway was not a vet I think, but was vet-adjacent (volunteer ambulance driver in WWI, possibly had some involvement in the Spanish Civil War, I forget; Orwell was on the ground in the latter though). Mailer, Heller, Wouk were WWII vets, as was Salinger, who had the “luck” to see action at the heaviest American land engagements of the entire war. Vonnegut was also a vet, and present (as a POW) during the firebombing of Dresden. Heinlein and Asimov worked as military contractors during the war, conducive to imaging world-shattering doomsday devices.

    Roth did not see action in combat but was enlisted and served in the same unit as Elvis (OK, I made that part up). Plus he was near sex-criminal in disposition (the parts about stalking the streets of New York to accost fresh, unsuspecting [email protected] in PORTNOY’S COMPLAINT are almost certainly autobiographical, as he admits to even worse stuff in his authorized biography- having the head of the UPenn(?) creative writing program feed him fresh coeds each semester, insisting on the right to try and [email protected] his step-daughter’s friends, etc.). Mailer, Bukowski, Hunter Thompson, Robert Crumb were also of this same outlaw, sexual deviant semi-criminal cloth.

    Gen-X and on writers are pretty weak tea by comparison. I will definitely give Franzen a serious go now thanks to Dave Pinsen’s well-spoken praise above, but trying to get through THE CORRECTIONS I was stopped cold by the opening chapter’s attempt to mine literary gold from the belittlement of ordinary middle class people (they clip a lot of coupons, the swine!)

    Rick Moody, Michael Chabon, Dave Eggers, Brett Easton Ellis, David Foster Wallace, Jonathan Lethem, Nick Hornby, Jonathan Saran Foer, etc. have collectively almost 0 in the way of vital lived male experience as far as I know. Though ICE STORM was very good, the rest of Moody’s work was incredibly navel-gazing and to add to the problem a lot of these straight male creators (and here I can add director Kevin Smith, white adjacent Junot Diaz, the guy who created THE OC) started to unashamedly geek out to their comic books/Dungeons & Dragons inner man-childs at the start of the 2000’s, obliterating whatever vestiges of masculine mystique they may have enjoyed. To paraphrase Oliver Wendell Holmes, a single generation of Rick Moody’s is enough!

    Replies: @JimDandy, @prosa123, @Jack D, @Dave Pinsen

    Rick Moody, Michael Chabon, Dave Eggers, Brett Easton Ellis, David Foster Wallace, Jonathan Lethem, Nick Hornby, Jonathan Saran Foer, etc. have collectively almost 0 in the way of vital lived male experience as far as I know.

    I’ll comment on the authors you’ve mentioned that I’ve read.

    Michael Chabon spends so much time writing gay characters that gays used to think he was one of them. His “The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier & Clay” is actually pretty good though. “The Yiddish Policeman’s Union” isn’t bad. Currently, I think Chabon is working in TV, where he is making Star Trek awful (Unz had an excellent post on that, btw).

    Brett Easton Ellis is actually gay, which I only discovered recently. I had read his Less Than Zero in the ’80s, and finally read another of his novels a year ago. Thread on that here:

    Jonathan Saran Foer‘s debut novel Everything Is Illuminated got a rave review from Joyce Carol Oates in the NYT Book Review, IIRC. I read it based on that and was extremely underwhelmed. Later, I read that he had plagiarized the only creative part of it, a magic realist dictionary, from an Israeli novelist. John Updike panned his next novel, as I recall. Probably the most entertaining thing Foer has written was a series of emails to Natalie Portman, who spurned his advances.

    • Replies: @Peter Akuleyev
    @Dave Pinsen

    I assume one thing everyone in Ukraine can agree on is that Foer’s novel is a travesty.

  265. @Irish Anti-Puritan
    @Bardon Kaldian

    White men (and women when they are not in affectation mode) just find black American, African, Muslim, Hindu, east Asian…. middle- and high brow fiction alien & bothersome.

    Yes but with a few notable exceptions like V.S. Naipual, Yukio Mishima and Ralph Ellison's Invisible Man.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen

    I liked V.S. Naipaul’s A House for Mr. Biswas. There’s a scene early in the book where the Brahmin Hindu protagonist on Trinidad gets apprenticed to a Hindu priest, and one night he has to take a dump, but is too lazy to go to the outhouse. So he defecates in a handkerchief or something and tosses it out the window. The next morning, the priest abruptly terminates his apprenticeship, as his wad of shit ended up landing on a sacred tree. That sort of sets the tone for the rest of the book.

    One foreign author I’d recommend is Ryu Murakami, particularly his novel From The Fatherland, With Love (North Koreans taking over the southernmost main island of Japan). Popular Hits of the Showa Era is good too. He’s a bit dark and violent, but very good.

  266. @J.Ross
    OT Fresh off their failed attempt to defame then- Virginia gubernatorial candidate Glenn Youngkin with a lazy photo op, the Fake Nazis have launched a similarly lazy photo op to defame America's most popular and effective governor, Ron DeSantis. This is the same thing as David Duke endorsing somebody, yet it's aberrantly lazy for the internet age, it's essential Edwardian technology.
    Notice the "Swastika Made Out of Floridæ."
    Twitter thread under more tag so it doesn't throw off the page load.

    https://twitter.com/CarlosGSmith/status/1551330555362529281

    Replies: @epebble, @Mr. Anon, @Nicholas Stix

    Isn’t that a backwards Nazi swastika? If so, that’s the dead giveaway of a “Nazi” hoax.

  267. @Malcolm X-Lax
    @Abe

    This reminds of the time Clay was on Howard Stern right after Robert Duval. Duval had made a couple of comments about Howard's Jewishness--not disparaging, just...noticing--and when Clay comes on, he's all bent out of shape about Duval. Howard seemed to have no problem with it. But this was the same Howard who could make a comment that Soon Yi-Previn has a face "like a catcher's mitt" but then bitch and moan when Jaimie Pressley says he looks like he was "smacked with a yarmulke". As usual, rules for thee but not for me.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen

    Jackie the Jokeman had a great line about Dice when Dice was on the show in the ’90s: “You’re the opposite of Joey Buttafuoco: a fake Italian in real leather.”

  268. @Guest007
    Any time a discussion of literature comes up, I cannot pass up the opportunity to post a link to the funniest one star reviews on Amazon of some of the most famous novels.

    https://themorningnews.org/article/lone-star-statements

    An example:
    The Sun Also Rises by Ernest Hemingway (1926)
    “Here’s the first half of the book: ‘We had dinner and a few drinks. We went to a cafe and talked and had some drinks. We ate dinner and had a few drinks. Dinner. Drinks. More dinner. More drinks. We took a cab here (or there) in Paris and had some drinks, and maybe we danced and flirted and talked sh*t about somebody. More dinner. More drinks. I love you, I hate you, maybe you should come up to my room, no you can’t’… I flipped through the second half of the book a day or two later and saw the words ‘dinner’ and ‘drinks’ on nearly every page and figured it wasn’t worth the risk.”

    Does anyone believe that a male would ever be interested in a book about drinks, dinner, flirting, and gossiping?

    Replies: @JimDandy

    I’m not even a huge Hemingway fan, but that book is a masterpiece.

  269. @Guest007
    @Redneck farmer

    Most female vets do not want to be large animal vets. They want to be small animal vets with better working hours. What is interesting is the creation of chain vet hospitals along the lines of urgent medical clinics. Those clinics will be staffed by women vets trying to pay off their debts.

    Replies: @Vladimir Berkov

    At least back when a friend of mine was applying (three different years) to get into vet school, it was even more restricted at the “source” than med schools. You basically had a small number of approved vet schools in the country which all college grads competed to get into because small animal vet work, like elective surgery, plastic surgery, dermatology, and many other specialities in medicine, pays well with good hours and high prestige.

    The downside is after you promote women into these college slots it’s a double whammy. First you always need more women than men for any given job because women often quit and get married, have kids, cut back on working hours, etc. Second, women don’t like the jobs with hard labor, long hours, or risk of injury, especially coupled with low prestige.

    Thus you get a lot of women elementary school teachers but relatively few women welding teachers. You get a lot of women dermatologists but few top surgeons, and a lot of posh vets with cats and few vets in the muck in the barn with the cows.

    • Replies: @Guest007
    @Vladimir Berkov

    Almost all Vet schools are at state universities and usually the ag school. California is the only state with more than one vet school. Not only does one have to have great grades and test scores but one also needs a resume that shows real interest in pets and animals. All of those help women get in.

    Outside of suburban small animal vets, there are jobs with large animals, exotic animals, packing plants, research animals, and working animals. I have a client who was a large animal vet and realized the hours are horrible because the vet has to go to the horse. The vet who deals with working dogs will work crazy hours. The exotic animal is going to do a residency at a zoo and work crazy hours.

    Replies: @John Johnson

  270. @Jack D
    @Mike Tre

    And tracking my comments seems to be your specialty. Get a life.

    Replies: @kaganovitch, @Mike Tre

    And tracking my comments seems to be your specialty. Get a life.

    Old joke: A man tells his wife “You see that guy over there? He’s been doing nothing but wasting time for the last 4 hours!” The wife asks ” How do you know?” He responds “I’ve been watching him.”

    • Replies: @Mike Tre
    @kaganovitch

    Steve flushed my first reply to you, as I suppose the truth hurts.* But to simplify:

    Hours typing 20 plus comments a day, as compared to 30 seconds to count them up.

    Totally the same thing, bro. Totally!

    *No vulgarity, curse words, or otherwise. Just Steve being Steve.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

  271. @epebble
    @J.Ross

    Do those Nazi/Swastika flags trigger anyone younger than 60? it has been nearly 80 years since Hitler, and it is hard to see anyone taking those symbols seriously. At least the Confederate flag can trigger some Americans since it was part of our history. Nazi sounds even more ancient than accusing someone as Communist.

    Replies: @J.Ross

    … well, the fake hoax photo op is intended for leftard twitter, but also, dude, it’s Florida, every third person is a retired Jew (which is the loudest and angriest kind).

  272. @Jack D
    @Mike Tre

    And tracking my comments seems to be your specialty. Get a life.

    Replies: @kaganovitch, @Mike Tre

    Ooh, that was a real zinger! It took me a lot less time to count up your comments today than it does for you to scan wikipedia about some topic because you’re obsessed with coming across as an expert on everything.

    Get a life? You should get some self-awareness as well!

  273. @HammerJack

    The Woke don’t seem all that aware of how sexual reproduction works. For example, I get the impression that they think young white male authors deserve to pay because they are descended from men, while women authors are only descended from women, not from icky men.
     
    The Woke are notorious for not wanting to be bothered with the details, particularly when the details (i.e. facts) conflict with they feelz.

    This is why they're capable of believing so many ridiculous things, and (not unrelated) why they're particularly susceptible to mass-media propaganda.

    Replies: @ADL Pyramid of Hate, @Gordo


    A woman who earned her place on a banknote.

    • Replies: @Rob McX
    @Gordo

    You can still listen to her voice.

    https://youtu.be/ax3B4gRQNU4

    Unlike a lot of people from that time, she sounds quite "posh". Tennyson had a strong regional accent.

    Replies: @Gordo

  274. @Bardon Kaldian
    Aeons ago, I exchanged opinions with Jared Taylor at the AmRen site.

    He said that the only novelists worth reading were those dead at least 50 years.

    I had a different opinion.

    So- we settled for 30 years.

    Replies: @appianglorius, @Gordo

    Aeons ago, I exchanged opinions with Jared Taylor at the AmRen site.

    He said that the only novelists worth reading were those dead at least 50 years.

    I had a different opinion.

    So- we settled for 30

    Problem is those books will become unavailable.

    • Replies: @Tex
    @Gordo

    Open Road Media is doing a good job of re-publishing older works of both literary and genre styles in modestly priced e-book editions. I discovered I had quite a bit of their products in my library before I even knew who they were (I pay attention to authors and subject matter, as opposed to publishers). E-books are a bit like paperbacks were in the '50s, cheap, low-status, yet often much better value for the money.

    Not every e-book is what I consider cheap of course. My price point for e-book fiction is $3.99-$5.99 (a lot is in the $7.99-$11.99 range), non-fiction $9.99, but if I really want something I'll pay a little more.

  275. Well, there goes any chance she had of getting the Nobel Prize.

    I guess as a white American, even a woman, she was out of contention anyway.

  276. @Bardon Kaldian
    @Steve Sailer

    Patricia Lockwood


    No One Is Talking About This is the debut novel by American poet Patricia Lockwood, published in 2021. It was a finalist for the 2021 Booker Prize, was one of the New York Times' 10 best books of 2021, and won the 2022 Dylan Thomas Prize.

    The novel focuses on a woman who is always online.
     
    Yaa Gyasi

    Homegoing is the debut historical fiction novel by Ghanaian-American author Yaa Gyasi, published in 2016. Each chapter in the novel follows a different descendant of an Asante woman named Maame, starting with her two daughters, who are half-sisters, separated by circumstance: Effia marries James Collins, the British governor in charge of Cape Coast Castle, while her half-sister Esi is held captive in the dungeons below. Subsequent chapters follow their children and following generations.
     
    Raven Leilani

    Luster is a 2020 debut novel by Raven Leilani. It follows a Black woman in her twenties who gets involved with a fortysomething white man in an open marriage.
     
    Avni Doshi

    Girl in White Cotton is the debut novel by Avni Doshi, an American writer of Indian origin. Doshi wrote the novel over the course of seven years. It tells the story of a troubled mother-daughter relationship in Pune, India.
     
    Lauren Oyler

    Fake Accounts is the 2021 debut novel by American author and critic Lauren Oyler. It was published on February 2, 2021, by Catapult, and on February 4, 2021, by Fourth Estate.

    The novel follows a young woman who discovers that her boyfriend is behind a popular Instagram account which promotes conspiracy theories.

     

    This must be some kind of joke ....

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Cagey Beast, @Gordo

    Why do block women think White men find them attractive?

  277. @northeast
    White men are in retreat on many fronts. Good luck as a white male trying to get into veterinary school in the USA. Almost 65% of vets are now female, with something like 80% of the vet school population currently female. No accident.

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @Guest007, @Sollipsist, @Peter Akuleyev

    Interesting. We switched our dog from our younger female vet to an older male vet a few years ago. Great move. The woman was nice but too emotionally invested and would sometimes flake out and leave work. The male vet is empathetic but seems to be driven more by curiosity- what dosage works best, is this medication really effective, etc. Keeps a level head. Basically the stereotypes hold true.

  278. @Dave Pinsen
    @Abe


    Rick Moody, Michael Chabon, Dave Eggers, Brett Easton Ellis, David Foster Wallace, Jonathan Lethem, Nick Hornby, Jonathan Saran Foer, etc. have collectively almost 0 in the way of vital lived male experience as far as I know.
     
    I'll comment on the authors you've mentioned that I've read.

    Michael Chabon spends so much time writing gay characters that gays used to think he was one of them. His "The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier & Clay" is actually pretty good though. "The Yiddish Policeman's Union" isn't bad. Currently, I think Chabon is working in TV, where he is making Star Trek awful (Unz had an excellent post on that, btw).

    Brett Easton Ellis is actually gay, which I only discovered recently. I had read his Less Than Zero in the '80s, and finally read another of his novels a year ago. Thread on that here:

    https://twitter.com/dpinsen/status/1411099735046381571?s=20&t=dUYZ0A5FzwzNSYN3ybVXMw

    Jonathan Saran Foer's debut novel Everything Is Illuminated got a rave review from Joyce Carol Oates in the NYT Book Review, IIRC. I read it based on that and was extremely underwhelmed. Later, I read that he had plagiarized the only creative part of it, a magic realist dictionary, from an Israeli novelist. John Updike panned his next novel, as I recall. Probably the most entertaining thing Foer has written was a series of emails to Natalie Portman, who spurned his advances.

    Replies: @Peter Akuleyev

    I assume one thing everyone in Ukraine can agree on is that Foer’s novel is a travesty.

  279. Isn’t there a vicious circle at work here? Fewer straight men read novels, fewer male authors are able to get published, leading to even fewer straight men reading, making it even harder for straight male novelists to find an audience, etc. Fiction, all art for that matter, is going the way of the musical.

    • Replies: @Irish Anti-Puritan
    @Peter Akuleyev

    Well no because for instance George Bernard Shaw's plays were more popular with women than with men.

    It isn't true that only men read books by men. If a good book is dramatic and about personal relations between people women will lap it up.

    Tolstoy's novels have a lot of stuff about men and women attending balls in St. Petersburg, and even breakdowns of social status within the Army.

    And anyway who says men only care about abstract "things"? Lots of straight men are intensely interested in socialising and dating.

    , @John Johnson
    @Peter Akuleyev

    Isn’t there a vicious circle at work here? Fewer straight men read novels, fewer male authors are able to get published, leading to even fewer straight men reading, making it even harder for straight male novelists to find an audience, etc. Fiction, all art for that matter, is going the way of the musical.

    I predicted this happening a while ago which is that entire subsets of fiction would collapse. Military fiction and Sci-fi are doomed as White men that read them are a smaller share of the market. The remaining publishing market will heavily tilt towards women and teenagers.

    The unspoken truth is that White men read more compared to men of other racial groups. When was the last time you saw a Black or Hispanic man reading at a coffee shop?

    The publishing industry desperately wants to live in racial fantasy where non-White men purchase just as many books and magazines. Even worse is that the liberal idiots running magazines like Time still think White men are to blame for everything and set the tone for some non-existing non-White audience.

    This is of course all compounded by the internet. Most White men I know read non-fiction and there is plenty online. I went from buying about 10-12 books a year to 2-3. I'd pick up the occasional novel at the airport but I haven't done that in years. Modern Western society is built on fiction. I'm never in the mood to read something that is completely made up. That describes half the news I read.

  280. @Peter Akuleyev
    Isn’t there a vicious circle at work here? Fewer straight men read novels, fewer male authors are able to get published, leading to even fewer straight men reading, making it even harder for straight male novelists to find an audience, etc. Fiction, all art for that matter, is going the way of the musical.

    Replies: @Irish Anti-Puritan, @John Johnson

    Well no because for instance George Bernard Shaw’s plays were more popular with women than with men.

    It isn’t true that only men read books by men. If a good book is dramatic and about personal relations between people women will lap it up.

    Tolstoy’s novels have a lot of stuff about men and women attending balls in St. Petersburg, and even breakdowns of social status within the Army.

    And anyway who says men only care about abstract “things”? Lots of straight men are intensely interested in socialising and dating.

  281. @Meretricious
    @Almost Missouri

    Why do people always characterize Ben Stiller as Jewish and not HALF Jewish and HALF Irish?

    Replies: @HA, @Almost Missouri

    For the same reason people don’t characterize Ashkenazim as half Italian.

  282. @Vladimir Berkov
    @Guest007

    At least back when a friend of mine was applying (three different years) to get into vet school, it was even more restricted at the "source" than med schools. You basically had a small number of approved vet schools in the country which all college grads competed to get into because small animal vet work, like elective surgery, plastic surgery, dermatology, and many other specialities in medicine, pays well with good hours and high prestige.

    The downside is after you promote women into these college slots it's a double whammy. First you always need more women than men for any given job because women often quit and get married, have kids, cut back on working hours, etc. Second, women don't like the jobs with hard labor, long hours, or risk of injury, especially coupled with low prestige.

    Thus you get a lot of women elementary school teachers but relatively few women welding teachers. You get a lot of women dermatologists but few top surgeons, and a lot of posh vets with cats and few vets in the muck in the barn with the cows.

    Replies: @Guest007

    Almost all Vet schools are at state universities and usually the ag school. California is the only state with more than one vet school. Not only does one have to have great grades and test scores but one also needs a resume that shows real interest in pets and animals. All of those help women get in.

    Outside of suburban small animal vets, there are jobs with large animals, exotic animals, packing plants, research animals, and working animals. I have a client who was a large animal vet and realized the hours are horrible because the vet has to go to the horse. The vet who deals with working dogs will work crazy hours. The exotic animal is going to do a residency at a zoo and work crazy hours.

    • Replies: @John Johnson
    @Guest007

    Don't let anyone become a vet.

    It's a horrible job and their wages have been depressed from too many graduates.

    Replies: @Guest007

  283. @kaganovitch
    @Woodsie

    I doubt there is a single course in today’s university’s studying Dos Passos.

    A web search turns up dozens i.e. at Stanford - AMSTUD 125C: The Lost Generation: American literature between the World Wars (ENGLISH 125C)
    This course explores American literature between the World Wars, tracing how themes of trauma, loss, disillusion, and dislocation, as well as issues of race, gender, and class, engendered vibrant "modernist" literary experimentation in this era. Writers may include John Dos Passos, Sherwood Anderson, Willa Cather, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Ernest Hemingway, Jean Toomer, Nella Larsen, William Faulkner, and Tillie Olsen.

    At Rutgers - 21:352:343,344 American Literature of the 20th and 21st Centuries (3,3)
    Major fiction, poetry, and other writing by Dreiser, Anderson, Hemingway, Fitzgerald, Eliot, O'Neill, Dos Passos, Frost, Faulkner, or other recent American authors.

    At FSU - 4121: The 20th-Century American Novel
    This course typically covers Dreiser, Dos Passos, Fitzgerald, Hemingway, Faulkner, Bellow, and Wright.

    At NYU - ENGL-UA 635 Formerly American Fiction Before World War II. Offered periodically. 4 points.
    Literary movements and social contexts in a period of remarkable innovation. Focus on realism, naturalism, modernism, and contemporary eclectic style. Novels by Theodore Dreiser, John Dos Passos, Willa Cather, Ernest Hemingway, F. Scott Fitzgerald, William Faulkner, Saul Bellow, and Ralph Ellison, as well as short fiction and critical and cultural essays.
    ]

    etc., etc.

    Replies: @Woodsie

    While it’s gratifying to see he is included in overview courses (although I detect weasel words: “may include,” “typically covers,” “..or other recent authors”), when I was in school forty years ago I took whole semesters studying single authors, particularly Fitzgerald and Faulkner. My older brother turned me on to Dos Passos’ USA much later in life.

    And as long as I’m back on the case, let me mention that Dos also wrote amazing straight history books. The Ground We Stand On covers the invention of American political philosophy (especially featuring Roger Williams, Joel Barlow, and Alexander Hamilton); The World Turned Upside Down, summed up by its subtitle, The men who made the nation is a political history of the early days of the republic, Shackles of Power intensively examines the political influence of Thomas Jefferson over three decades; Wilson’s War takes on American policy and politics during the Great War. None are breezy reads, but all are fascinating, any of which could be the foundation of an American History course. Sadly, not a single one of these volumes remains in print.

    • Thanks: kaganovitch
  284. @Ian Smith
    I will say this about female authors: they write men much better than male authors write women. With the exception of The Mists of Avalon (shudder), I have never read fiction by a woman with unbelievable male characters, while even some otherwise talented male authors can write eye-rollingly ridiculous women.
    It HAS gotten better, though. American fiction written by men between 1920 and 1960 is the worst.

    Replies: @Mike Tre, @Tracy, @Guest87, @Blodgie, @J.Ross, @Bardon Kaldian

    I still have nightmares about some romance scenes that Tom Clancy had in Red Storm Rising.

    • Thanks: Ian Smith
  285. @White Guy In Japan
    @Anon

    "On the other hand, I’ve noticed a lot of self-published or small press male genre fiction, cop/detective/military thrillers. There seems to be an ecosystem of support services like design, copy editing, and ebook formatting that lets independents put out slick product, and the Amazon review infrastructure floats the cream to the top."

    Thanks to Kindle, I have seen some nice male-driven sub-genres emerge. Specifically, I dig the Asian Noir novels. Written by white men living in Asia (mainly SE), the novels remind me of older detective fiction a la Raymond Chandler. Dead hookers, crooked cops and lots of lost white souls wandering around Thailand.

    Fun bedtime reading!

    Replies: @Erik Sieven, @Rich, @Guest87

    Same with sci fi. Marko Kloos and B.V Larson do great military sci fi, for when you happen to run out of Warhammer 40K stuff to read.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    @Guest87

    What’s the best intro book to Warhammer 40K?

    Comes up a lot on Twitter. Seems to a cultural phenomenon of sorts.

    Replies: @Guest87

  286. @Ian Smith
    I will say this about female authors: they write men much better than male authors write women. With the exception of The Mists of Avalon (shudder), I have never read fiction by a woman with unbelievable male characters, while even some otherwise talented male authors can write eye-rollingly ridiculous women.
    It HAS gotten better, though. American fiction written by men between 1920 and 1960 is the worst.

    Replies: @Mike Tre, @Tracy, @Guest87, @Blodgie, @J.Ross, @Bardon Kaldian

    Your comment sounds like something your wife said that you have internalized and think is your own idea.

    • Replies: @Ian Smith
    @Blodgie

    A closeted MGTOW says what?

  287. @Ian Smith
    I will say this about female authors: they write men much better than male authors write women. With the exception of The Mists of Avalon (shudder), I have never read fiction by a woman with unbelievable male characters, while even some otherwise talented male authors can write eye-rollingly ridiculous women.
    It HAS gotten better, though. American fiction written by men between 1920 and 1960 is the worst.

    Replies: @Mike Tre, @Tracy, @Guest87, @Blodgie, @J.Ross, @Bardon Kaldian

    You asked for it.

    search for the SCTV s2e02 sketch You! I’m taking my own head, screwing it on right, and nobody’s going to tell me that it’s not!, with the glorious Andrea Martin.
    Search variation
    Search variation
    Search variations
    Well hell, I’m glad I downloaded it before the purge in 2020, evidently it’s not on YouTube any more.

    • Replies: @James J. O'Meara
    @J.Ross

    Don't forget her play's co-author, Sue Bopper Simpson (daughter of the Big Bopper). played by the immortal Catherine O'Hara.

    AND The Plasmatics visit John Candy's Fishin' Musician. Damn that show was great.

    Replies: @HammerJack, @J.Ross

  288. Gene Kerrigan has written four novels about cops and criminals in Dublin. I read one and immediately got all the others. Best stuff I’ve read in ages.

    There are recurring characters, so it’s best to read them in order.

    https://www.amazon.com/s?k=gene+kerrigan&crid=2MKD79TR56KP3&sprefix=gene+kerrigan%2Caps%2C3416&ref=nb_sb_noss_1

    • Thanks: Dave Pinsen
  289. “…the publishing insiders I speak to all seem to identify their archetypal reader as a 28-year-old white woman who grew up in Buckinghamshire or Oxfordshire.”

    According to Wiki, Buckinghamshire and Oxfordshire are “high end” in terms of income–not to mention educational level–which probably accounts for the above phenomenon.

  290. @JimDandy
    What Joyce said. There are a lot of tiny wrinkles to the issue that can be examined and dissected under a magnifying glass, but what Joyce asserted should be the focus of the discussion--straight white men are the enemy of the woke, the NY publishing world is one of the wokest subcultures in America, and straight white men are being discriminated against in that world because they are icky. What incredible fucking chutzpah it is for these midwits to say, essentially, "We discriminated against men and stacked the deck to give women the upper hand, therefore it only stands to reason that the freshest stories out there are by women--because women are having their moment. Furthermore, womenwomenwomen!"

    Replies: @Forlorn_Scrivener, @Prester John

    Slightly OT but: Is it me or has the “woke” crowd become increasingly dominated by women, particularly black and Jewish women, and homosexuals?

    • Replies: @JimDandy
    @Prester John

    My sense is that, yeah, the woke leadership is dominated by women--particularly Jewish and non-white women--and homosexuals. I feel like the army of footsoldiers (pawns) of wokeness is made up primarily of white women.

  291. @Steve Sailer
    @Cagey Beast

    Right, progressivism was likely existent by the time of the English Civil War in 1647:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putney_Debates

    I wouldn't be surprised if the ideology was existent in Shakespeare's time around 1600, but that we underestimate it back then because Shakespeare didn't exhibit much of it.

    Replies: @S Johnson, @JimDandy, @Bill P, @Hibernian, @Prester John

    Who were the original American “progressives?” Why, the Puritans of course! After all, it was they who called themselves “The Saints” and whose destiny it was to erect (as per John Winthrop’s sermon) “a city on a hill.”

  292. @Guest007
    @Vladimir Berkov

    Almost all Vet schools are at state universities and usually the ag school. California is the only state with more than one vet school. Not only does one have to have great grades and test scores but one also needs a resume that shows real interest in pets and animals. All of those help women get in.

    Outside of suburban small animal vets, there are jobs with large animals, exotic animals, packing plants, research animals, and working animals. I have a client who was a large animal vet and realized the hours are horrible because the vet has to go to the horse. The vet who deals with working dogs will work crazy hours. The exotic animal is going to do a residency at a zoo and work crazy hours.

    Replies: @John Johnson

    Don’t let anyone become a vet.

    It’s a horrible job and their wages have been depressed from too many graduates.

    • Replies: @Guest007
    @John Johnson

    For four years of school and probably a year of a residency, the money is not that great. Also, opening one's own practice requires a large amount of capital, especially for large animal. I suspect that is why corporations are stepping in to set up small animal hospitals.

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob

  293. @Blodgie
    @Ian Smith

    Your comment sounds like something your wife said that you have internalized and think is your own idea.

    Replies: @Ian Smith

    A closeted MGTOW says what?

  294. @Peter Akuleyev
    Isn’t there a vicious circle at work here? Fewer straight men read novels, fewer male authors are able to get published, leading to even fewer straight men reading, making it even harder for straight male novelists to find an audience, etc. Fiction, all art for that matter, is going the way of the musical.

    Replies: @Irish Anti-Puritan, @John Johnson

    Isn’t there a vicious circle at work here? Fewer straight men read novels, fewer male authors are able to get published, leading to even fewer straight men reading, making it even harder for straight male novelists to find an audience, etc. Fiction, all art for that matter, is going the way of the musical.

    I predicted this happening a while ago which is that entire subsets of fiction would collapse. Military fiction and Sci-fi are doomed as White men that read them are a smaller share of the market. The remaining publishing market will heavily tilt towards women and teenagers.

    The unspoken truth is that White men read more compared to men of other racial groups. When was the last time you saw a Black or Hispanic man reading at a coffee shop?

    The publishing industry desperately wants to live in racial fantasy where non-White men purchase just as many books and magazines. Even worse is that the liberal idiots running magazines like Time still think White men are to blame for everything and set the tone for some non-existing non-White audience.

    This is of course all compounded by the internet. Most White men I know read non-fiction and there is plenty online. I went from buying about 10-12 books a year to 2-3. I’d pick up the occasional novel at the airport but I haven’t done that in years. Modern Western society is built on fiction. I’m never in the mood to read something that is completely made up. That describes half the news I read.

  295. @Anonymous
    @Anon


    very few white men are attracted to fiction writing ... and those who are will probably be coming from privileged upper middle class backgrounds
     
    There used to be a very strong tradition of white men from lower or lower-middle-class backgrounds writing serious novels and short stories -- James T. Farrell, John Fante, John Steinbeck, Henry Miller, Charles Bukowski...and then all those guys who wrote for the pulps and popular press -- hard-boiled detective stories, science fiction, westerns: men like Max Brand, Jack Williamson, Mickey Spillane. There were so many.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Anon, @James J. O'Meara, @James J. O'Meara

    Your point is valid, but as for

    “all those guys who wrote for the pulps and popular press — hard-boiled detective stories, science fiction, westerns”

    Surely the greatest “pulp” authors, outside of Chandler’s detective fiction, are Robert E. Howard and HP Lovecraft, who would hardly be considered typical males (Lovecraft essentially never held a job, Howard lived with his mother and shot himself when she died). HPL was kinda one note but Howard, apart from Conan, also excelled in Westerns and detective stories. There’s something to be said for fantasy being as important as experience.

    For example, James Gould Cozzens’ books are all based in some profession: lawyer, Episcopal priest, Air Force base, etc. — and are studies of those worlds and how men (largely) interact in such organizations. Hell, even Gore Vidal’s first book was based on his WWII service.

    Your point though is basically sound. Just as men in general used to be expected to be able to DO things — fix a car, rather than call AAA, build a bookshelf rather than go to IKEA — fiction writers used to be expected to come out of some kind of practical way of life, including military service.

    I think it was in the 50s– around the time shabbos goy Dwight MacDonald attacked Cozzens in Commentary — that the idea of an unemployed or unemployable bum, or a graduate student, because the model for a writer and hence the model for what to write about: academia, being “on the road,” etc.

    The fingerprints of a certain Tribe seem to be all over this sea change.

  296. @Anonymous
    @Anon


    very few white men are attracted to fiction writing ... and those who are will probably be coming from privileged upper middle class backgrounds
     
    There used to be a very strong tradition of white men from lower or lower-middle-class backgrounds writing serious novels and short stories -- James T. Farrell, John Fante, John Steinbeck, Henry Miller, Charles Bukowski...and then all those guys who wrote for the pulps and popular press -- hard-boiled detective stories, science fiction, westerns: men like Max Brand, Jack Williamson, Mickey Spillane. There were so many.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Anon, @James J. O'Meara, @James J. O'Meara

    Evola, of all people, devotes a whole chapter of Ride the Tiger to disparaging “subjective” literature, such as Proust, Joyce, Kafka, etc., where the emphasis is on “style” and the study of the author’s precious inner world. He gives the Beats credit for at least doing something. He likes Henry Miller even, and probably would have liked Bukowski.

    Writing like this has long since become the standard for “literature” and anything else — perhaps “realism” might be the term — is infra dig or lowbrow. For this mentality, Farrell, Steinbeck et. al. arer really no better than Spillane (a great, though limited writer, in my book) or other “pulp” or “men’s” writers. (The earlier “realists” like Farrell or Steinbeck or O’Hara are grandfathered in).

    Many of the “modernists” the Right enjoys are no different than Proust etc.: Pound and Eliot for example., but also Junger (Pound’s unreadable Modernist writing is the only reason They haven’t cancelled him). By contrast, a two-fisted ex-soldier like Wyndham Lewis (as was Evola and Junger) is largely ignored by both the Right and the academy.

    • Replies: @Peter Akuleyev
    @James J. O'Meara


    Evola, of all people, devotes a whole chapter of Ride the Tiger to disparaging “subjective” literature, such as Proust, Joyce, Kafka, etc.
     
    Funny - in Austria and Czechia Kafka is considered a realist.

    Replies: @James J. O'Meara

  297. @White Guy In Japan
    @Erik Sieven

    My three favorites are Christopher G. Moore, Jake Needham and John Burdett. All available on Kindle.

    For more info:
    https://crimereads.com/bangkoks-expat-crime-fiction-scene-is-booming/
    https://thediplomat.com/2016/05/bangkok-noir-crime-fiction-in-the-city-of-angels/

    Replies: @Erik Sieven

    Thanks!

  298. @Anon
    @LadyTheo

    Amazon’s daily deals for Kindle, typically 1-day $3 sales, are 90% chick lit, romances and mysteries, very little guy fiction or nonfiction.

    On the other hand, I’ve noticed a lot of self-published or small press male genre fiction, cop/detective/military thrillers. There seems to be an ecosystem of support services like design, copy editing, and ebook formatting that lets independents put out slick product, and the Amazon review infrastructure floats the cream to the top.

    So the publishing industry may be going the same way as the newspaper industry, with a big three remaining and the rest going belly up (NYT, WaPo, WSJ), to be replaced by the publishing versions of blogging and Substack.

    Replies: @White Guy In Japan, @epebble, @James J. O'Meara

    I’ve noticed a lot of self-published or small press male genre fiction, cop/detective/military thrillers.

    I believe the Critical Drinker, who reviews movies on YT from an anti-woke perspective (and sounds like a drunken Millennial Woes) has a series of such books.

  299. @JimDandy
    @Steve Sailer

    "Fitzgerald was a huge celebrity in the 1920s, but was he considered a literary writer at the time?"


    Yes, he was considered literary, if not a groundbreaking Modernist artist or whatever. Mencken called his first book the best of that year. Willa Cather, T. S. Eliot, and Edith Wharton had high praise for Gatsby when it came out. Gatsby was a commercial flop.

    Replies: @Peter D. Bredon

    Gatsby was a commercial flop.

    Miles Mathis says GG was pumped by the govt deciding, for some reason, to print thousands of cheap copies to distribute to GI’s in WWII. Who was behind it? Who knows.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Peter D. Bredon

    GIs seemed to like "The Great Gatsby."

    A lot of postwar cultural opinions stemmed from WWII. E.g., that Citizen Kane was the best prewar movie appears to have been decided during WWII by documentarians near the Front arguing in their evening drinking sessions. I suspect Orson Welles' friend John Huston played a decisive role in these arguments, but, then again, if any one man had an outsized role, why not John Huston.

    Similarly, the dominant role in pop culture for decades after WWII of Crosby and Hope had a lot to do with their dominant role during the War.

    It was an emotionally intense time.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    , @JimDandy
    @Peter D. Bredon

    Possibly just someone with excellent taste in literature. It's an almost perfect book, economical yet shimmering with image and propelled by lyrical language and all that usual stuff your hear literary novels praised for, yet it's highly accessible and a "quick read" that most people can related too--or could, back before the idea of white people having hopes and dreams and problems of their own was deemed laughable.

    , @J.Ross
    @Peter D. Bredon

    (I agree with Jim but) consider the brief episode of "the rubber order" featuring John Kenneth Galbraith in the documentary The Second World War (narrated by Lawrence Olivier), in which Galbraith saw an opportunity in Rooseveltian totalitarianism and Hitlerian emergency, to simply take control of all rubber in the United States. Or Robert McNamara. You had these college kids, many of whom thought John Reed was a good guy, running sub-departments. Thing is, the most socialist among them knew how to do math, and that a woman was not a man.

    Replies: @Peter D. Bredon

  300. Male writers definitely seem to be feeling more reticent about sex. Choire Sicha argued more than a decade ago in the New York Observer that his generation of male novelists (Jonathan Safran Foer, Joshua Ferris, Dave Eggers) had become emasculated. They were “malformed, self-centered boy-writers” – anti-Mailers who shied away from sex and controversy. …

    These guys make me think of Lisa Simpson’s favorite tween magazine, ‘Non-threatening Boys.’

    I still read newish literary novels occasionally. One by Lionel Shriver recently: Should We Stay or Should We Go, a very grown-up novel about old age and impending death, written during the Covid panic for added effect. She’s great, but I admit to reading more genre stuff these days, being a male reader and all.

    There aren’t any young American male writers I find very compelling, but maybe they’re out there, unpublished. On the other hand, nobody leaves million dollar bills on the sidewalk as the saying goes around here. People used to read Mailer and Updike and Roth and Wolfe to be culturally literate, but nobody talks about novels anymore. Literary characters are out; everything gets compared to movies these days: LOTR references are about the movies, because few have read the books, and Marvel comics and Harry Potter are for children either way.

    But there’s plenty of old stuff to get through. Maybe I’ll give Vanity Fair a whirl.

    • Replies: @middle-aged vet
    @Ghost of Bull Moose

    The guys who are 50 years younger than those old novelists - none of whom will be remembered in 50 years, by the way, except Wolfe, who died a generation before the others - your timing is off - and who are at their level of talent, are not hurting for money or women.

    Replies: @Ghost of Bull Moose

  301. @kaganovitch
    @Jack D

    And tracking my comments seems to be your specialty. Get a life.

    Old joke: A man tells his wife "You see that guy over there? He's been doing nothing but wasting time for the last 4 hours!" The wife asks " How do you know?" He responds "I've been watching him."

    Replies: @Mike Tre

    Steve flushed my first reply to you, as I suppose the truth hurts.* But to simplify:

    Hours typing 20 plus comments a day, as compared to 30 seconds to count them up.

    Totally the same thing, bro. Totally!

    *No vulgarity, curse words, or otherwise. Just Steve being Steve.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @Mike Tre

    Doubt it.

    Steve just overlooks some comments & most of them appear later. It happened to me I don't how many times.

    Perhaps only one my comment has not "passed through". It was brutally & explicitly racist, so I guess it was too risky (I understand it).

    Replies: @Mike Tre

  302. @JimDandy
    @Anon

    A very interesting phenomenon. But France is still a very different place than America. He gets reluctant, tepid props here because he's foreign.

    Replies: @Peter D. Bredon

    Perhaps he paid his fee with that Public Enemies book, where he presents Bernard-Henri Lévy as “one of the good ones” (*)

    (*)My phrase not his

    • Replies: @JimDandy
    @Peter D. Bredon

    100%

  303. @kaganovitch
    @JohnnyWalker123

    Who controls the publishing industry? Answer this question.

    But that's been true for the better part of a century with very different results.

    Replies: @Peter D. Bredon

    Boiling the frog. The Tribe is more patient than you seem to be. But even in the early 60s Gore Vidal already noted that only Tribal novelists were being promoted (except for an “OK Goy” like Updike).

  304. @John Johnson
    @Guest007

    Don't let anyone become a vet.

    It's a horrible job and their wages have been depressed from too many graduates.

    Replies: @Guest007

    For four years of school and probably a year of a residency, the money is not that great. Also, opening one’s own practice requires a large amount of capital, especially for large animal. I suspect that is why corporations are stepping in to set up small animal hospitals.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    @Guest007

    I know two vets who studied to be, and wanted to be, large animal vets. Then they found out they could make much more money and work much more reasonable hours giving rabies shots to Fido.

  305. Thanks for the reminder, I’ve been meaning to read some James Patterson.

    Really good SciFi by Iain M Banks (a man, gasp!) with women as lead/main characters, across multiple ages and careers – fun reads. Especially, Transitions – but very few will ‘get it’, mostly not women (but, you have to read the entire Culture Series to understand, so it’s an undertaking). I re-read it about once per year, along with Hydrogen Sonata and Surface Detail.

    Looking at James Patterson for reading variety – good ‘mind-rest’ from studying technical subjects. Wouldn’t consider any female authors, mainly because they don’t speak to me (as a male). Probably women authors should study the differences between how men and women communicate, elucidated by (a female author no less) Deborah Tannen, That’s Not What I Meant.

    I read and study a lot – for a man, c’est l’horreur!

  306. @Peter D. Bredon
    @JimDandy


    Gatsby was a commercial flop.
     
    Miles Mathis says GG was pumped by the govt deciding, for some reason, to print thousands of cheap copies to distribute to GI's in WWII. Who was behind it? Who knows.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @JimDandy, @J.Ross

    GIs seemed to like “The Great Gatsby.”

    A lot of postwar cultural opinions stemmed from WWII. E.g., that Citizen Kane was the best prewar movie appears to have been decided during WWII by documentarians near the Front arguing in their evening drinking sessions. I suspect Orson Welles’ friend John Huston played a decisive role in these arguments, but, then again, if any one man had an outsized role, why not John Huston.

    Similarly, the dominant role in pop culture for decades after WWII of Crosby and Hope had a lot to do with their dominant role during the War.

    It was an emotionally intense time.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Steve Sailer

    When I was a kid visiting my grandparents, I read some of those GI books. They were piled in with other books in a shed behind the house. Two I particularly liked were volumes by Damon Runyon and Dorothy Parker. The shape of the books resembled that of a reporter's notebook, except instead of being spiral bound they were perfect bound. I somehow got the impression that publishers were making available mostly titles from, at the latest, the 1920s, that were no longer being read. But given to young people who were children when they were first published, they found a new audience.
    However, apparently, I was mistaken. According to this Atlantic article, Publishers Gave Away 122,951,031 Books During World War II, that was not entirely so.
    About The Great Gatsby, the author writes:

    "In 1945, Council picked out an older novel by F. Scott Fitzgerald that had never achieved popular success. It sold just 120 copies the previous year, and another 33 in 1945 before going out of print. The 155,000 copies of The Great Gatsby that they shipped out to the troops dwarfed all its previous print runs combined. Buoyed by that exposure, it would go on to become one of the great publishing successes of the 20th century."

    Replies: @SFG, @J.Ross

  307. @James J. O'Meara
    @Anonymous

    Evola, of all people, devotes a whole chapter of Ride the Tiger to disparaging "subjective" literature, such as Proust, Joyce, Kafka, etc., where the emphasis is on "style" and the study of the author's precious inner world. He gives the Beats credit for at least doing something. He likes Henry Miller even, and probably would have liked Bukowski.

    Writing like this has long since become the standard for "literature" and anything else -- perhaps "realism" might be the term -- is infra dig or lowbrow. For this mentality, Farrell, Steinbeck et. al. arer really no better than Spillane (a great, though limited writer, in my book) or other "pulp" or "men's" writers. (The earlier "realists" like Farrell or Steinbeck or O'Hara are grandfathered in).

    Many of the "modernists" the Right enjoys are no different than Proust etc.: Pound and Eliot for example., but also Junger (Pound's unreadable Modernist writing is the only reason They haven't cancelled him). By contrast, a two-fisted ex-soldier like Wyndham Lewis (as was Evola and Junger) is largely ignored by both the Right and the academy.

    Replies: @Peter Akuleyev

    Evola, of all people, devotes a whole chapter of Ride the Tiger to disparaging “subjective” literature, such as Proust, Joyce, Kafka, etc.

    Funny – in Austria and Czechia Kafka is considered a realist.

    • Replies: @James J. O'Meara
    @Peter Akuleyev

    Actually, I agree. He's also essentially a comic writer; when reading The Metamorphosis to his friends, he would convulse with laughter. I think Evola is responding to the postwar, "Kafka as angsty prophet of the Holocaust" PR job that Max Brod and Schocken Books concocted.

    Replies: @sayless, @Jack D

  308. @Jonathan Mason
    There have always been female novelists, but in the beginning most of them had to use male pseudonyms.

    At the start Jane Austen, Emily Bronte, and George Eliot all used male pseudonyms. In fact the three Bronte sisters used the names Acton, Currer, and Ellis Bell so is to keep things tidy.

    Maybe the time has now come for young male novelists to use female names like Tabitha Trollope, Diane Dickens, Edwina Eliot, or Rowena Rowling to get their foot in the door.

    However let's not forget that in the 19th century and the first part of the 20th century, there were no movies or TV or videos, and the novel was the primary form of fictional home entertainment and often published in installments.

    The novel has now been overtaken by other technologies, and the best male storytellers are making movies.

    The literary novel is now just a niche market and not a mass phenomenon and is probably consumed as much in podcasts as in paper form. Also public libraries are very much in decline compared to the days of my youth.

    Replies: @Tex, @Ghddghh, @John Pepple

    Eliot didn’t HAVE TO use a pseudonym; she used it because she she was a shrinking violet who wanted to be anonymous. I can relate.

  309. @Peter D. Bredon
    @JimDandy

    Perhaps he paid his fee with that Public Enemies book, where he presents Bernard-Henri Lévy as "one of the good ones" (*)

    (*)My phrase not his

    Replies: @JimDandy

    100%

  310. @Peter D. Bredon
    @JimDandy


    Gatsby was a commercial flop.
     
    Miles Mathis says GG was pumped by the govt deciding, for some reason, to print thousands of cheap copies to distribute to GI's in WWII. Who was behind it? Who knows.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @JimDandy, @J.Ross

    Possibly just someone with excellent taste in literature. It’s an almost perfect book, economical yet shimmering with image and propelled by lyrical language and all that usual stuff your hear literary novels praised for, yet it’s highly accessible and a “quick read” that most people can related too–or could, back before the idea of white people having hopes and dreams and problems of their own was deemed laughable.

    • Agree: Kylie
  311. @Dave Pinsen

    “I was having a meeting the other day with yet another 28-year-old woman,” he continues. “I always ask editors, ‘What are you looking for’, and she happened to say, ‘What I really want is a generational family drama’. I said, ‘Oh, like The Corrections by Jonathan Franzen?’ and honestly, you would think I’d said Mein Kampf. She said, ‘No! Nothing like that!’. And I thought, ‘But that’s literally what you’ve described!’”
     
    Has there ever been a profession that became better when dominated by women? Maybe nursing, but a woman kind of invented it.

    The Corrections by Jonathan Franzen is probably better than anything a woman has written this century. Franzen's ambition in writing it was to write a literary novel that was also a page-turner, and he succeeded.

    Franzen's subsequent novel, Freedom, might be the best American novel to describe the aughts. A lot of the hatred toward him is purely envy.

    An example of the female-dominated publishing industry's failure: a writer named Kristen Roupenian got her short story called "Cat Person" published in the New Yorker a few years ago. It was a pretty good story, about a college girl's brief relationship with an older, socially and sexually awkward man (he takes the girl to a Holocaust movie on their first date), and it resonated with women and went viral. As a result of that, Roupenian got a 7-figure advance for writing a book of short stories, which got outsold by the self-published psuedonymous author "Delicious Tacos".

    I haven't bought any of Tacos' books, because I think I'd find them too depressing, but some of the stories of his I've read have been great. One example is Autopilot, which starts with a similar premise as the Ben Stiller prestige TV show "Severance", but is much pithier and funnier.

    Replies: @JimDandy, @Almost Missouri, @martin_2, @Rodger Dodger, @Jack D, @JimDandy, @James J. O'Meara

    Delicious Tacos
    Finally, Some Good News
    Amazon Kindle, 2018

    I don’t know what Charles Bukowski would think of a writer calling himself “Delicious Tacos,” but I think he would approve of the writing itself; I certainly do, and you definitely should expose yourself (the metaphor is creepily appropriate on many levels) to the work of an author who describes himself as “no more significant than an insect. Author of the novel Finally, Some Good News, and the collections Savage Spear of the Unicorn, The Pussy and Hot Naked Tits.”

    https://counter-currents.com/2020/06/the-turn-of-the-screwed/

    • Replies: @SFG
    @James J. O'Meara

    I read all his stuff. I think the novel is the best as it gives some overall structure; the rest gets repetitive. Dude could have used an editor, but…no publishing house wants to hear what he has to say.

    I still encourage everyone here to read him, his stuff is short and he gives voice to the young men of our time. And some of the stuff like the various unnatural hair colors women use these days is the sort of social observation lit-fic is supposed to do, but turned on a target the woke young women in publishing would never accept-them.

  312. Anon[204] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mr. Anon
    @Anon


    Except white men aren’t marginalized and being in writing has done jack shit to advance women’s interests (look aroud you, the anti-feminist movement, aborton banned, birth control next, feminism is dead).
     
    Abortion - or as you term it "aborton" - hasn't been banned. Nor is birth control going to be banned. Nor is feminism in any way dead.

    White men are stronger than ever in the 21st century, women writing didn’t hurt them a bit.
     
    No, they are not. You are a fool. And, as is apparent, an idiot.

    Replies: @Anon

    Abortion – or as you call it “aborton” – hasn’t been banned.

    In huge swaths of America , including the fastest growing state of Texas, it will vlbe.

    Nor is birth control going to be banned

    Oh yes it will be.

    Nor is feminism in any way dead.

    The response to the Roe v. Wade overturning would have been far more palpable 30 years ago.

    No, they are not.

    Give me one reason why that is the case. You can’t do it.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    @Anon

    In some states it will be banned. That isn't the same as banned everywhere. Even in most of those states there will still be exceptions.

    And there is no way that birth control is going to be banned. Even pretty conservative guys don't want huge families anymore. The Republicans in Congress, many of them, can't even bring themselves to still oppose gay marriage. I don't see a massive return to traditional sexual morality anytime soon.

    I don't see how anyone can say that feminism is dead. It is ascendent in the blue states. And even in the red states, it's basic assumptions - that men and women are not substantially different - are taken for granted.

    Replies: @Art Deco

  313. I’m afraid that the wokey girls will destroy the lit-fic world.

    Meanwhile, I wonder about genre vs. lit-fic in market size. Maybe lit-fic is just another educated-class conceit while the rest of us get on with life.

    However, I just reread Middlemarch. Dear God, that George Eliot/Mary Ann Evans was a wonder.

  314. @Mr. Anon
    @The Anti-Gnostic


    Donna Tartt’s biography reads like you’d expect the biography of a female novelist to read.
     
    I once saw an interview with Tartt, and she struck me as being unlike most other literary authors of her generation. She sounded interesting and as though she would have something interesting to say in a novel.

    I honestly can't think of many woman authors I'd care to read. Patricia Highsmith would be one (though I still haven't gotten round to reading anything by her). Tartt would be another.

    Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic

    Yes, she’s pretty iconoclastic actually. Spinster tomboy who cares very little about the literary world or being popular and making lots of money.

    I was thinking more about the preppy upbringing, Classical education, and celibate, maidenly lifestyle.

    • Replies: @SFG
    @The Anti-Gnostic

    Just because she doesn’t talk endlessly about her sex life doesn’t mean she’s celibate. She could have a long-term sex buddy, and given her success comes from getting lucky with a novel, something that can’t reliably be replicated, she might be reluctant to marry. An old-school prep might well be discreet.

    Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic

  315. @Mike Tre
    @kaganovitch

    Steve flushed my first reply to you, as I suppose the truth hurts.* But to simplify:

    Hours typing 20 plus comments a day, as compared to 30 seconds to count them up.

    Totally the same thing, bro. Totally!

    *No vulgarity, curse words, or otherwise. Just Steve being Steve.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    Doubt it.

    Steve just overlooks some comments & most of them appear later. It happened to me I don’t how many times.

    Perhaps only one my comment has not “passed through”. It was brutally & explicitly racist, so I guess it was too risky (I understand it).

    • Replies: @Mike Tre
    @Bardon Kaldian

    there is no doubt. He's flushed scores over the years. The ones he just misses sit in waiting for moderation or whatever for several days. The ones that disappear altogether he actively deletes.

    He is certainly welcome to accuse me of lying, because I mentioned it before. But he never does.

  316. @Ian Smith
    I will say this about female authors: they write men much better than male authors write women. With the exception of The Mists of Avalon (shudder), I have never read fiction by a woman with unbelievable male characters, while even some otherwise talented male authors can write eye-rollingly ridiculous women.
    It HAS gotten better, though. American fiction written by men between 1920 and 1960 is the worst.

    Replies: @Mike Tre, @Tracy, @Guest87, @Blodgie, @J.Ross, @Bardon Kaldian

    I don’t think you’re right.

    Perhaps you are with regard to some American authors, but the whole line from Balzac, Flaubert, Stendhal, Zola, Turgenev, Dostoevsky, James, Tolstoy, Lawrence, .. is full of believable female characters (at least, that’s what most female readers say).

    They say the same about Dreiser & most Hemingway’s female-centered stories, plus a few other novelists.

    • Replies: @Ian Smith
    @Bardon Kaldian

    I do think it’s interesting how 19th century European writers could write women well, but American writers in the first half of the 20th century bombed in that area.

    It could be the sexist pendulum swing after the double whammy of women’s suffrage and prohibition that Steve has discussed.

    The worst offender that comes to mind is From Here to Eternity by James Jones. There was one scene where a male character makes a woman swoon that was so hammy I closed the book and put it in the pile to sell at the used book store.

    Replies: @John Johnson

  317. Slightly OT, but not too much… Speaking of non- fiction, I read another one of Brian Greene’s books & was disappointed again. He always tries to “go deep”- but fails. For instance, here…

    He tries “deep thought”

    [MORE]

    Philosopher Samuel Scheffler recently initiated scholarly investigation of the issue, exploring a variant of the question posed to me decades ago. How would you respond, Scheffler asks, if you learned that thirty days after your own death everyone remaining would be obliterated? It’s a more revealing version of the scenario as it excises one’s own premature mortality and so shines a tighter spotlight on the role of descendants in anchoring value. Scheffler’s carefully reasoned conclusion resonates with my own informal musings:

    Our concerns and commitments, our values and judgments of importance, our sense of what matters and what is worth doing—all these things are formed and sustained against a background in which it is taken for granted that human life is itself a thriving, ongoing enterprise…We need humanity to have a future for the very idea that things matter to retain a secure place in our conceptual repertoire.

    Other philosophers have weighed in too, providing opinions that delineate a wider range of perspectives. Susan Wolf suggests that recognition of our shared fate might elevate the care for others to newfound heights, but even so, she concurs that our vision of a future populated by humans is essential to the value we ascribe to our undertakings. Harry Frankfurt offers a different view, suggesting that many things we value would be unaffected by the doomsday scenario, most prominently artistic pursuits and scientific research. The intrinsic gratification of these activities, he believes, would be enough for many to keep at it. I’ve already given my contrarian view regarding scientific research, which serves to emphasize a related point, obvious but telling: people will respond to the news in different ways. The best we can do is envision dominant trends. For me, and many others too, to engage in creative pursuits and scholarly undertakings is to feel part of a long, rich, and ongoing human dialogue. Even if a given physics paper I write does not set the world on fire, the paper nevertheless makes me feel part of the conversation. Yet, if I know that I am the last to speak, and if I know that there will be no one in the future to reflect on what I say, I’m left wondering why I should bother.

    In Scheffler’s scenario, as well as in the question I was asked years earlier, the doomsdays are hypothetical but the timescales for the world’s destruction are easily grasped. In this book, the doomsdays we’ve explored are genuine but their timescales make them extraordinarily remote. Does this change of scale, a colossal change at that, affect the conclusions? It’s an issue that both Scheffler and Wolf consider, entertainingly framed by the wonderful scene in Annie Hall in which nine-year-old Alvy Singer has concluded that there’s no point in doing homework given that in a few billion years the expanding universe will break apart and destroy everything. Alvy’s shrink, let alone his mother, considers Alvy’s concern ludicrous. Audiences laugh because they regard Alvy’s worry as farcical. Scheffler shares these intuitions yet notes that he does not have a fundamental justification for why we think it reasonable to have an existential crisis in the face of imminent destruction but silly to do so when such destruction is far in the future. He chalks it up to the difficulty we have grasping timescales that are vastly beyond the range of human experience. Wolf agrees, noting that if the immediate demise of humanity would render life meaningless, then the same should be true even if the end is far off. Indeed, as she notes, on cosmic timescales the delay of a few billion years is not long at all.

    I agree. Forcefully so.

    As we’ve seen repeatedly, the notion of a duration being long or short has no absolute meaning. Long or short is a matter of perspective. The time represented by the observation deck of the Empire State Building, floor 86, is enormous by everyday standards, but comparing that duration to the time represented by floor 100 is like comparing the blink of an eye to ten thousand centuries. Our familiar human perspective leads us to judgments that while relevant are also parochial. Because of this, I view the scenario of imminent demise as no more than a tool that employs artificial urgency to catalyze an authentic response. The intuition we glean remains relevant to an end that awaits our descendants in the far future; that future, viewed from a larger context, is a moment away.

    While it is indeed challenging to internalize timescales that are significantly beyond anything we experience, the journey we’ve taken in this book has populated the cosmic timeline with landmarks that serve to make the abstract concrete. I can’t say that I have an innate sense of the timescales marked out along the metaphor of the Empire State Building in the same way that I sense the timescales of daily life or those of my generation or even a few generations, but the sequence of transformative events we have explored provides handholds for grasping the future. There is no need to chant, and a lotus position is optional, but if you find a quiet place and let your mind slowly and freely float along the cosmic timeline, moving through and then past our epoch, past the era of distant receding galaxies, past the era of stately solar systems, past the era of graceful swirling galaxies, past the era of burnt-out stars and wandering planets, past the era of glowing and disintegrating black holes, and onward to a cold, dark, nearly empty but potentially limitless expanse—in which the evidence that we once existed amounts to an isolated particle located here instead of there or another isolated particle moving this way instead of that—and if you are at all like me and let that reality fully settle in, the fact that we’ve traveled fantastically far into the future hardly diminishes the shuddering yet awestruck feeling that wells up inside. Indeed, in one essential way, the enormous sweep of time only adds weight to the nearly unbearable lightness of being; compared to the timescale we’ve reached, the epoch of life and mind is infinitesimal. By today’s scales, its entire span, from the earliest microbes to the final thought, would be less than the duration required for light to traverse an atomic nucleus. The entire duration of human activity—whether we annihilate ourselves in the next few centuries, are wiped out by a natural disaster in the next few millennia, or somehow find a way to carry on until the death of the sun, the end of the Milky Way, or even the demise of complex matter—would be more fleeting still.

    We are ephemeral. We are evanescent.

    Yet our moment is rare and extraordinary, a recognition that allows us to make life’s impermanence and the scarcity of self-reflective awareness the basis for value and a foundation for gratitude. While we may long for a perdurable legacy, the clarity we gain from exploring the cosmic timeline reveals that this is out of reach. But that very same clarity underscores how utterly wondrous it is that a small collection of the universe’s particles can rise up, examine themselves and the reality they inhabit, determine just how transitory they are, and with a flitting burst of activity create beauty, establish connection, and illuminate mystery.

    This is wrong.

    Human experience of life is that we find significant what happens at the human scale, 50-100 years. Also, we can somehow imagine near history (100 to 500 years; older history (1000 to 3000 years) is harder to imagine, while we essentially don’t care about what happened 20,000 years ago.

    Larger scales, millions or even billions of years, don’t touch us at any level. They lie absolutely beyond our capacities, imaginative & emotional.

    In sum, if we knew that earth would be destroyed in 2 years, our societies would have collapsed. In the next 2 million years- no one would care a whit.

    • Replies: @epebble
    @Bardon Kaldian

    I think it is written for high school audience.

    Much more popular is

    https://www.amazon.com/0553380168-9780553380163-Brief-History-Time-Paperback/dp/B07KKHLKWW/ref=sr_1_2

  318. @Guest87
    @White Guy In Japan

    Same with sci fi. Marko Kloos and B.V Larson do great military sci fi, for when you happen to run out of Warhammer 40K stuff to read.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen

    What’s the best intro book to Warhammer 40K?

    Comes up a lot on Twitter. Seems to a cultural phenomenon of sorts.

    • Replies: @Guest87
    @Dave Pinsen

    Horus Rising

  319. @Peter Akuleyev
    @James J. O'Meara


    Evola, of all people, devotes a whole chapter of Ride the Tiger to disparaging “subjective” literature, such as Proust, Joyce, Kafka, etc.
     
    Funny - in Austria and Czechia Kafka is considered a realist.

    Replies: @James J. O'Meara

    Actually, I agree. He’s also essentially a comic writer; when reading The Metamorphosis to his friends, he would convulse with laughter. I think Evola is responding to the postwar, “Kafka as angsty prophet of the Holocaust” PR job that Max Brod and Schocken Books concocted.

    • Replies: @sayless
    @James J. O'Meara

    Kafka burned most of what he wrote ("many disgusting pages") so all we have are the masterpieces. But half the manuscripts he kept were lost behind the Iron Curtain, a disaster. He'd given them to someone else for safekeeping. If we're lucky they'll come to light someday.

    Great comic writer, yes.

    , @Jack D
    @James J. O'Meara

    Not everything that he writes is humorous. A lot of it (e.g. The Trial) was really prophetic of totalitarian methods. If Kafka could have known his entire surviving family (all three of his sisters) would be murdered at Auschwitz he might not have laughed as hard himself. What seemed light and comic in the genteel atmosphere of a salon in a late Austrian Empire provincial capital was seen in a different light later on.

    Replies: @sayless

  320. @Mr. Anon
    @J.Ross


    Notice the “Swastika Made Out of Floridæ.”
     
    You gotta admit that's kinda clever.

    What do Florida-Nazis wear? Brown Bermuda shorts? Armbands over their Ed Hardy shirts? Jack-flip-flops?

    Replies: @James J. O'Meara

    IIRC, the Brownshirts wore brown shirts because they were (at least to start) war surplus, from the Afrika Korps. So I guess that was the warm weather garb.

    As modelled by Dark Helmet himself:

    https://tenor.com/view/combing-the-desert-space-balls-found-anything-nothing-yet-s-ir-literal-jokes-gif-10465625

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    @James J. O'Meara


    IIRC, the Brownshirts wore brown shirts because they were (at least to start) war surplus, from the Afrika Korps.
     
    The Afrika Korps was a WWII thing. The SA were wearing brown uniforms right from the beginning in the 20s.

    Replies: @Cagey Beast

  321. @Sollipsist
    @northeast

    Still, there are still more male veterinarians (60-70%) than there are male veterinary assistants or vet techs (90%+). It's roughly equivalent to the distribution of doctors vs. nurses, and probably for similar reasons.

    During my past 15 years in this field, that ratio hasn't changed much. What HAS changed is that each year it seems that fewer of the newer veterinarians (male or female) are white. I can only assume that this is the result of vet school admissions/ financial aid trends -- vets are in such demand that nobody with a DVM goes without a job unless they choose to, whatever sex or ethnicity they may be.

    Replies: @northeast

    Interesting. Which non-whites? Asians? I can’t imagine blacks or Hispanics coming into such a demanding profession in great numbers.

  322. @J.Ross
    @Ian Smith

    You asked for it.
    ...
    search for the SCTV s2e02 sketch You! I'm taking my own head, screwing it on right, and nobody's going to tell me that it's not!, with the glorious Andrea Martin.
    Search variation
    Search variation
    Search variations
    Well hell, I'm glad I downloaded it before the purge in 2020, evidently it's not on YouTube any more.

    Replies: @James J. O'Meara

    Don’t forget her play’s co-author, Sue Bopper Simpson (daughter of the Big Bopper). played by the immortal Catherine O’Hara.

    AND The Plasmatics visit John Candy’s Fishin’ Musician. Damn that show was great.

    • Replies: @HammerJack
    @James J. O'Meara

    IMO, Catherine O'Hara is one of the most cruelly underrated comic actresses ever. Along with Julie Hagerty. Both should have been A-List stars.

    Replies: @James J. O'Meara

    , @J.Ross
    @James J. O'Meara

    Same episode (s2e02) had the sketch which formed the plot for Strange Brew. We'll not see their like again.

  323. @Dave Pinsen
    @Guest87

    What’s the best intro book to Warhammer 40K?

    Comes up a lot on Twitter. Seems to a cultural phenomenon of sorts.

    Replies: @Guest87

    Horus Rising

    • Thanks: Dave Pinsen
  324. @Jonathan Mason
    There have always been female novelists, but in the beginning most of them had to use male pseudonyms.

    At the start Jane Austen, Emily Bronte, and George Eliot all used male pseudonyms. In fact the three Bronte sisters used the names Acton, Currer, and Ellis Bell so is to keep things tidy.

    Maybe the time has now come for young male novelists to use female names like Tabitha Trollope, Diane Dickens, Edwina Eliot, or Rowena Rowling to get their foot in the door.

    However let's not forget that in the 19th century and the first part of the 20th century, there were no movies or TV or videos, and the novel was the primary form of fictional home entertainment and often published in installments.

    The novel has now been overtaken by other technologies, and the best male storytellers are making movies.

    The literary novel is now just a niche market and not a mass phenomenon and is probably consumed as much in podcasts as in paper form. Also public libraries are very much in decline compared to the days of my youth.

    Replies: @Tex, @Ghddghh, @John Pepple

    Jane Austen never used a male pseudonym. Her first novel, Sense and Sensibility, didn’t have a name on the title page, but merely said, “by a lady.” Her next novel, Pride and Prejudice, said, “by the author of Sense and Sensibility.”

    • Thanks: Hibernian
  325. @Bardon Kaldian
    @Mike Tre

    Doubt it.

    Steve just overlooks some comments & most of them appear later. It happened to me I don't how many times.

    Perhaps only one my comment has not "passed through". It was brutally & explicitly racist, so I guess it was too risky (I understand it).

    Replies: @Mike Tre

    there is no doubt. He’s flushed scores over the years. The ones he just misses sit in waiting for moderation or whatever for several days. The ones that disappear altogether he actively deletes.

    He is certainly welcome to accuse me of lying, because I mentioned it before. But he never does.

  326. @Bardon Kaldlan
    @HammerJack

    The future is female!😉
    You see,the world has changed,and the skills men provide are not needed anymore. Its the " soft skills" of (white) women that are in demand!😇 We need to fight racism and sexism and then we will all be free or something.😮

    Replies: @HammerJack

    Yes, thank you. Now will you be so kind as to explain what your relationship with Bardon Kaldian is? Your names are awfully similar. Is it an MPD pronoun kind of thing?

    • Agree: PiltdownMan
    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
    @HammerJack

    Thank you! Your eyes are way sharper than mine.

    I thought they were the same poster and wondered why Bardon Kaldian occasionally had a post that was completely out of character.

    Bardon Kaldlan (with an "l") has been posting since 2021 and has about 600 posts here.

    Bardon Kaldian (with an "i") has been posting since 2015 and has nearly 9,000 posts here.

    Replies: @HammerJack

  327. @James J. O'Meara
    @J.Ross

    Don't forget her play's co-author, Sue Bopper Simpson (daughter of the Big Bopper). played by the immortal Catherine O'Hara.

    AND The Plasmatics visit John Candy's Fishin' Musician. Damn that show was great.

    Replies: @HammerJack, @J.Ross

    IMO, Catherine O’Hara is one of the most cruelly underrated comic actresses ever. Along with Julie Hagerty. Both should have been A-List stars.

    • Replies: @James J. O'Meara
    @HammerJack

    Lola Heatherton ... everything that was great about 60s Hollywood/TV. "I love you! I want to bear your children!"

    Replies: @HammerJack

  328. @J.Ross
    F4 confirms no mention of the insipid pseudo-intellectual Borat-book Lapvona (excrement-covered self-righteous Medieval Christian Europeans like to smell their own butts when not raping their own daughters and mutilating each other). Good. That's not just because it's that rare example of actual racism, it's because Lapvona is wierdly dated. It's just Kosinski's Painted Bird set in Monty Python and the Holy Grail. In the future no one will have any time for Jewish obsessions, because Jewish mechanations will have hyper-focused everyone onto their own obsessions. Every obscurantist novel about a lesbian struggling to found a goat dairy takes us closer.
    ------
    Chinese plot foiled, sought to set up a sigint collection facility in a seventy-foot pagoda at the National Arboretum in DC. This sounds like a Simpsons subplot. Then again, the President is an employee of the Chinese government and is cool with China buying land next to our most important drone base. But pay no attention to our business partners, focus on Russia.
    https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/23/politics/fbi-investigation-huawei-china-defense-department-communications-nuclear/index.html

    Replies: @HammerJack

    In the future no one will have any time for Jewish obsessions, because Jewish mechanations will have hyper-focused everyone onto their own obsessions.

    Another likely alternative is that decades of mass-media propaganda will have convinced everyone that jewish obsessions are actually their own. We may be there already.

  329. @Alden
    @Anon

    Odyfuwa must be another African immigrant. Probably so dumb she thinks passengers give stacks of $20,50 and 100 bills to pay for their tickets

    Replies: @JimDandy

    Looking forward to her memoir after she is made the new head of BLM.

  330. @Hibernian
    @Cagey Beast


    The Ellis Island Jews took Yankee feminism, republicanism, anti-Europeanism and the worship of Blacks to new heights but they didn’t invent them.
     
    This.

    Replies: @JimDandy

    Who said they invented anything?

  331. @Guest007
    @John Johnson

    For four years of school and probably a year of a residency, the money is not that great. Also, opening one's own practice requires a large amount of capital, especially for large animal. I suspect that is why corporations are stepping in to set up small animal hospitals.

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob

    I know two vets who studied to be, and wanted to be, large animal vets. Then they found out they could make much more money and work much more reasonable hours giving rabies shots to Fido.

  332. @James J. O'Meara
    @J.Ross

    Don't forget her play's co-author, Sue Bopper Simpson (daughter of the Big Bopper). played by the immortal Catherine O'Hara.

    AND The Plasmatics visit John Candy's Fishin' Musician. Damn that show was great.

    Replies: @HammerJack, @J.Ross

    Same episode (s2e02) had the sketch which formed the plot for Strange Brew. We’ll not see their like again.

  333. @Anon
    Nobody shoule care. As the article notes, very few white men are attracted to fiction writing. This isn't an industry the average white male is interested in, and those who are will probably be coming from privileged upper middle class backgrounds anyway -- not the kind of person who has to worry about a career path. Assuming this is true, anyway, and not the anecdotal blabbering of a middle aged white woman.

    Call me when white men are being discriminated against when applying for the types of jobs they love to do, like police officer, meterologist, politician, lawyer, mechanic, ag teacher, scout sniper, hot air balloon tour guide, circus owner, solar energy, wind turbine repair man, cameraman, small aircraft pilot, amateur porn producer, knifemaker, gun salesman, etc.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Thoughts, @NOTA, @Anonymous, @Mr. Anon, @throtler

    White men can use female names to get published, just like the Bronte sisters had to use male names back in the day. Problem solved.

  334. @Peter D. Bredon
    @JimDandy


    Gatsby was a commercial flop.
     
    Miles Mathis says GG was pumped by the govt deciding, for some reason, to print thousands of cheap copies to distribute to GI's in WWII. Who was behind it? Who knows.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @JimDandy, @J.Ross

    (I agree with Jim but) consider the brief episode of “the rubber order” featuring John Kenneth Galbraith in the documentary The Second World War (narrated by Lawrence Olivier), in which Galbraith saw an opportunity in Rooseveltian totalitarianism and Hitlerian emergency, to simply take control of all rubber in the United States. Or Robert McNamara. You had these college kids, many of whom thought John Reed was a good guy, running sub-departments. Thing is, the most socialist among them knew how to do math, and that a woman was not a man.

    • Replies: @Peter D. Bredon
    @J.Ross

    " Thing is, the most socialist among them knew how to do math, and that a woman was not a man."

    Socialism may or may not be a good idea, but these pre-Woke socialists were honest reformers, not insane ideologues.

    Replies: @Hibernian, @Hibernian

  335. @Liza

    This is heartbreaking for writers who may, in fact, be brilliant, & critical of their own "privilege".
     
    All of the great, and good, writers were published long ago. And the majority were men, though I am not making light of talented women writers. If young white men are going to complain that they weren't chosen even though they are critical of their own "privilege" - well, who the hell needs them.

    Replies: @middle-aged vet

    Liza said – “All of the great, and good, writers, were published long ago.” Are you Chinese by the way? I kind of doubt it because Liza has two letters that Chinese people find hard to pronounce, but that being said, excessive ancestor worship is one of the worst things about Chinese culture, and you seem to be all in with ancestor worship.

    I will not be sending you free copies of my next novel no matter how much you beg.

    • Replies: @Liza
    @middle-aged vet

    Come on, be nice! It's just an opinion. Like the thousands of others on unz.com, none of which I lose sleep over.

    -Rizer.

  336. @Ghost of Bull Moose

    Male writers definitely seem to be feeling more reticent about sex. Choire Sicha argued more than a decade ago in the New York Observer that his generation of male novelists (Jonathan Safran Foer, Joshua Ferris, Dave Eggers) had become emasculated. They were “malformed, self-centered boy-writers” – anti-Mailers who shied away from sex and controversy. …
     
    These guys make me think of Lisa Simpson's favorite tween magazine, 'Non-threatening Boys.'

    I still read newish literary novels occasionally. One by Lionel Shriver recently: Should We Stay or Should We Go, a very grown-up novel about old age and impending death, written during the Covid panic for added effect. She's great, but I admit to reading more genre stuff these days, being a male reader and all.

    There aren't any young American male writers I find very compelling, but maybe they're out there, unpublished. On the other hand, nobody leaves million dollar bills on the sidewalk as the saying goes around here. People used to read Mailer and Updike and Roth and Wolfe to be culturally literate, but nobody talks about novels anymore. Literary characters are out; everything gets compared to movies these days: LOTR references are about the movies, because few have read the books, and Marvel comics and Harry Potter are for children either way.

    But there's plenty of old stuff to get through. Maybe I'll give Vanity Fair a whirl.

    Replies: @middle-aged vet

    The guys who are 50 years younger than those old novelists – none of whom will be remembered in 50 years, by the way, except Wolfe, who died a generation before the others – your timing is off – and who are at their level of talent, are not hurting for money or women.

    • Replies: @Ghost of Bull Moose
    @middle-aged vet

    Not 'you can't go home again' novelist Wolfe, 'Bonfire' Wolfe, New Journalism contemporary of Mailer if not strictly a novelist.

    Anyway, I've seen Safran Foer in Park Slope, and he's no Ken Kesey. Just a nebbishy dude who looks like he has adenoids and a chronic runny nose. There's no shortage of women for anyone in NYC. Half the women in Park Slope have one.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @middle-aged vet

  337. Anonymous[387] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    @Peter D. Bredon

    GIs seemed to like "The Great Gatsby."

    A lot of postwar cultural opinions stemmed from WWII. E.g., that Citizen Kane was the best prewar movie appears to have been decided during WWII by documentarians near the Front arguing in their evening drinking sessions. I suspect Orson Welles' friend John Huston played a decisive role in these arguments, but, then again, if any one man had an outsized role, why not John Huston.

    Similarly, the dominant role in pop culture for decades after WWII of Crosby and Hope had a lot to do with their dominant role during the War.

    It was an emotionally intense time.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    When I was a kid visiting my grandparents, I read some of those GI books. They were piled in with other books in a shed behind the house. Two I particularly liked were volumes by Damon Runyon and Dorothy Parker. The shape of the books resembled that of a reporter’s notebook, except instead of being spiral bound they were perfect bound. I somehow got the impression that publishers were making available mostly titles from, at the latest, the 1920s, that were no longer being read. But given to young people who were children when they were first published, they found a new audience.
    However, apparently, I was mistaken. According to this Atlantic article, Publishers Gave Away 122,951,031 Books During World War II, that was not entirely so.
    About The Great Gatsby, the author writes:

    “In 1945, Council picked out an older novel by F. Scott Fitzgerald that had never achieved popular success. It sold just 120 copies the previous year, and another 33 in 1945 before going out of print. The 155,000 copies of The Great Gatsby that they shipped out to the troops dwarfed all its previous print runs combined. Buoyed by that exposure, it would go on to become one of the great publishing successes of the 20th century.”

    • Replies: @SFG
    @Anonymous

    Sandy Petersen got his hands on an old GI novel of Lovecraft, went on to invent the Call of Cthulhu RPG in the 80s, and now Cthulhu is menacing Kristen Stewart.

    , @J.Ross
    @Anonymous

    I guess also Gatsby is an ideal story for a bored soldier or sailor to fantasize along: class mobility to extreme wealth, class stricture to bitter revenge, good character motivations, wild parties, the question of what one wants to do with his life.

  338. @Bardon Kaldian
    @Ian Smith

    I don't think you're right.

    Perhaps you are with regard to some American authors, but the whole line from Balzac, Flaubert, Stendhal, Zola, Turgenev, Dostoevsky, James, Tolstoy, Lawrence, .. is full of believable female characters (at least, that's what most female readers say).

    They say the same about Dreiser & most Hemingway's female-centered stories, plus a few other novelists.

    Replies: @Ian Smith

    I do think it’s interesting how 19th century European writers could write women well, but American writers in the first half of the 20th century bombed in that area.

    It could be the sexist pendulum swing after the double whammy of women’s suffrage and prohibition that Steve has discussed.

    The worst offender that comes to mind is From Here to Eternity by James Jones. There was one scene where a male character makes a woman swoon that was so hammy I closed the book and put it in the pile to sell at the used book store.

    • Replies: @John Johnson
    @Ian Smith

    The worst offender that comes to mind is From Here to Eternity by James Jones. There was one scene where a male character makes a woman swoon that was so hammy I closed the book and put it in the pile to sell at the used book store.


    It seems that for quite a period both men and women liked to pretend that women were hopeless romantics that never got dirty.

  339. @tyrone
    @Jim Don Bob


    Fort Marcy Park where Vince Foster killed himself.
     
    ........ya think?

    Replies: @Rob McX

    Arkancide.

  340. @James J. O'Meara
    @Mr. Anon

    IIRC, the Brownshirts wore brown shirts because they were (at least to start) war surplus, from the Afrika Korps. So I guess that was the warm weather garb.

    As modelled by Dark Helmet himself:

    https://tenor.com/view/combing-the-desert-space-balls-found-anything-nothing-yet-s-ir-literal-jokes-gif-10465625

    Replies: @Mr. Anon

    IIRC, the Brownshirts wore brown shirts because they were (at least to start) war surplus, from the Afrika Korps.

    The Afrika Korps was a WWII thing. The SA were wearing brown uniforms right from the beginning in the 20s.

    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    @Mr. Anon

    Nevertheless he's right about the origin of the Brownshirts' brown shirts. They were army surplus from Germany's African colonies: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_colonial_empire

  341. @Anon
    @Mr. Anon


    Abortion – or as you call it “aborton” – hasn’t been banned.
     
    In huge swaths of America , including the fastest growing state of Texas, it will vlbe.

    Nor is birth control going to be banned
     

    Oh yes it will be.

    Nor is feminism in any way dead.
     
    The response to the Roe v. Wade overturning would have been far more palpable 30 years ago.

    No, they are not.
     
    Give me one reason why that is the case. You can't do it.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon

    In some states it will be banned. That isn’t the same as banned everywhere. Even in most of those states there will still be exceptions.

    And there is no way that birth control is going to be banned. Even pretty conservative guys don’t want huge families anymore. The Republicans in Congress, many of them, can’t even bring themselves to still oppose gay marriage. I don’t see a massive return to traditional sexual morality anytime soon.

    I don’t see how anyone can say that feminism is dead. It is ascendent in the blue states. And even in the red states, it’s basic assumptions – that men and women are not substantially different – are taken for granted.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Mr. Anon

    I don’t see how anyone can say that feminism is dead. It is ascendent in the blue states. And even in the red states, it’s basic assumptions – that men and women are not substantially different – are taken for granted.

    Disagree. 'Feminism' is like 'the Peter Principle' or 'Murphy's Law'. There's a short form and a long form definition. The short form is 'women have options; men have obligations'. That's not dead, but people see through the gamesmanship that sustains this type of thinking and are less likely to sit still for it. The sort of feminism pushed by Gloria Steinem's contemporaries - the now-you-see-it-now-you-don't assertions of androgyny - are unusual except in circumstances where scheming professional women are attempting to seize benefits (see Nancy Hopkins at Harvard).

    Feminist policy - such as the effort to pump up the number of women in the military - is kept going because it is congruent with regime ideology. Regime ideology is kept going via coercion, not because any signature feature of it has actual assent of anyone not enforcing it.

    Replies: @HFR

  342. @Bardon Kaldian
    Slightly OT, but not too much... Speaking of non- fiction, I read another one of Brian Greene's books & was disappointed again. He always tries to "go deep"- but fails. For instance, here...
    https://www.amazon.com/Until-End-Time-Evolving-Universe/dp/1524731676

    He tries "deep thought"


    Philosopher Samuel Scheffler recently initiated scholarly investigation of the issue, exploring a variant of the question posed to me decades ago. How would you respond, Scheffler asks, if you learned that thirty days after your own death everyone remaining would be obliterated? It’s a more revealing version of the scenario as it excises one’s own premature mortality and so shines a tighter spotlight on the role of descendants in anchoring value. Scheffler’s carefully reasoned conclusion resonates with my own informal musings:

    Our concerns and commitments, our values and judgments of importance, our sense of what matters and what is worth doing—all these things are formed and sustained against a background in which it is taken for granted that human life is itself a thriving, ongoing enterprise…We need humanity to have a future for the very idea that things matter to retain a secure place in our conceptual repertoire.

    Other philosophers have weighed in too, providing opinions that delineate a wider range of perspectives. Susan Wolf suggests that recognition of our shared fate might elevate the care for others to newfound heights, but even so, she concurs that our vision of a future populated by humans is essential to the value we ascribe to our undertakings. Harry Frankfurt offers a different view, suggesting that many things we value would be unaffected by the doomsday scenario, most prominently artistic pursuits and scientific research. The intrinsic gratification of these activities, he believes, would be enough for many to keep at it. I’ve already given my contrarian view regarding scientific research, which serves to emphasize a related point, obvious but telling: people will respond to the news in different ways. The best we can do is envision dominant trends. For me, and many others too, to engage in creative pursuits and scholarly undertakings is to feel part of a long, rich, and ongoing human dialogue. Even if a given physics paper I write does not set the world on fire, the paper nevertheless makes me feel part of the conversation. Yet, if I know that I am the last to speak, and if I know that there will be no one in the future to reflect on what I say, I’m left wondering why I should bother.

    In Scheffler’s scenario, as well as in the question I was asked years earlier, the doomsdays are hypothetical but the timescales for the world’s destruction are easily grasped. In this book, the doomsdays we’ve explored are genuine but their timescales make them extraordinarily remote. Does this change of scale, a colossal change at that, affect the conclusions? It’s an issue that both Scheffler and Wolf consider, entertainingly framed by the wonderful scene in Annie Hall in which nine-year-old Alvy Singer has concluded that there’s no point in doing homework given that in a few billion years the expanding universe will break apart and destroy everything. Alvy’s shrink, let alone his mother, considers Alvy’s concern ludicrous. Audiences laugh because they regard Alvy’s worry as farcical. Scheffler shares these intuitions yet notes that he does not have a fundamental justification for why we think it reasonable to have an existential crisis in the face of imminent destruction but silly to do so when such destruction is far in the future. He chalks it up to the difficulty we have grasping timescales that are vastly beyond the range of human experience. Wolf agrees, noting that if the immediate demise of humanity would render life meaningless, then the same should be true even if the end is far off. Indeed, as she notes, on cosmic timescales the delay of a few billion years is not long at all.

    I agree. Forcefully so.

    As we’ve seen repeatedly, the notion of a duration being long or short has no absolute meaning. Long or short is a matter of perspective. The time represented by the observation deck of the Empire State Building, floor 86, is enormous by everyday standards, but comparing that duration to the time represented by floor 100 is like comparing the blink of an eye to ten thousand centuries. Our familiar human perspective leads us to judgments that while relevant are also parochial. Because of this, I view the scenario of imminent demise as no more than a tool that employs artificial urgency to catalyze an authentic response. The intuition we glean remains relevant to an end that awaits our descendants in the far future; that future, viewed from a larger context, is a moment away.

    While it is indeed challenging to internalize timescales that are significantly beyond anything we experience, the journey we’ve taken in this book has populated the cosmic timeline with landmarks that serve to make the abstract concrete. I can’t say that I have an innate sense of the timescales marked out along the metaphor of the Empire State Building in the same way that I sense the timescales of daily life or those of my generation or even a few generations, but the sequence of transformative events we have explored provides handholds for grasping the future. There is no need to chant, and a lotus position is optional, but if you find a quiet place and let your mind slowly and freely float along the cosmic timeline, moving through and then past our epoch, past the era of distant receding galaxies, past the era of stately solar systems, past the era of graceful swirling galaxies, past the era of burnt-out stars and wandering planets, past the era of glowing and disintegrating black holes, and onward to a cold, dark, nearly empty but potentially limitless expanse—in which the evidence that we once existed amounts to an isolated particle located here instead of there or another isolated particle moving this way instead of that—and if you are at all like me and let that reality fully settle in, the fact that we’ve traveled fantastically far into the future hardly diminishes the shuddering yet awestruck feeling that wells up inside. Indeed, in one essential way, the enormous sweep of time only adds weight to the nearly unbearable lightness of being; compared to the timescale we’ve reached, the epoch of life and mind is infinitesimal. By today’s scales, its entire span, from the earliest microbes to the final thought, would be less than the duration required for light to traverse an atomic nucleus. The entire duration of human activity—whether we annihilate ourselves in the next few centuries, are wiped out by a natural disaster in the next few millennia, or somehow find a way to carry on until the death of the sun, the end of the Milky Way, or even the demise of complex matter—would be more fleeting still.

    We are ephemeral. We are evanescent.

    Yet our moment is rare and extraordinary, a recognition that allows us to make life’s impermanence and the scarcity of self-reflective awareness the basis for value and a foundation for gratitude. While we may long for a perdurable legacy, the clarity we gain from exploring the cosmic timeline reveals that this is out of reach. But that very same clarity underscores how utterly wondrous it is that a small collection of the universe’s particles can rise up, examine themselves and the reality they inhabit, determine just how transitory they are, and with a flitting burst of activity create beauty, establish connection, and illuminate mystery.
     
    This is wrong.

    Human experience of life is that we find significant what happens at the human scale, 50-100 years. Also, we can somehow imagine near history (100 to 500 years; older history (1000 to 3000 years) is harder to imagine, while we essentially don't care about what happened 20,000 years ago.

    Larger scales, millions or even billions of years, don't touch us at any level. They lie absolutely beyond our capacities, imaginative & emotional.

    In sum, if we knew that earth would be destroyed in 2 years, our societies would have collapsed. In the next 2 million years- no one would care a whit.

    Replies: @epebble

    I think it is written for high school audience.

    Much more popular is

  343. @Prester John
    @JimDandy

    Slightly OT but: Is it me or has the "woke" crowd become increasingly dominated by women, particularly black and Jewish women, and homosexuals?

    Replies: @JimDandy

    My sense is that, yeah, the woke leadership is dominated by women–particularly Jewish and non-white women–and homosexuals. I feel like the army of footsoldiers (pawns) of wokeness is made up primarily of white women.

  344. @Gordo
    @HammerJack

    https://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/4/26/1366993843493/Florence-Nightingale-pict-005.jpg

    A woman who earned her place on a banknote.

    Replies: @Rob McX

    You can still listen to her voice.

    Unlike a lot of people from that time, she sounds quite “posh”. Tennyson had a strong regional accent.

    • Thanks: PiltdownMan
    • Replies: @Gordo
    @Rob McX

    Thanks

  345. @Rob McX
    @Gordo

    You can still listen to her voice.

    https://youtu.be/ax3B4gRQNU4

    Unlike a lot of people from that time, she sounds quite "posh". Tennyson had a strong regional accent.

    Replies: @Gordo

    Thanks

  346. We’ve got one vet clinic here in town that is ONLY black, and several places have at least one black DVM. Most clinics in the area have at least one Hispanic vet as well. It’s tempting to say that’s because it’s the Southwest, but the vets come from all over…

    Our latest two DVM hires have been a black man and a Hispanic man (joining 3 white women, a Hispanic woman, a black guy and an Asian guy), and my previous clinic’s vets included two black women and an Asian woman. A majority of the vet assistants and about half of the vet techs are Hispanic, but that could definitely be because of the locale. Several Hawaiians on the support staff as well.

  347. @Mr. Anon
    @James J. O'Meara


    IIRC, the Brownshirts wore brown shirts because they were (at least to start) war surplus, from the Afrika Korps.
     
    The Afrika Korps was a WWII thing. The SA were wearing brown uniforms right from the beginning in the 20s.

    Replies: @Cagey Beast

    Nevertheless he’s right about the origin of the Brownshirts’ brown shirts. They were army surplus from Germany’s African colonies: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_colonial_empire

  348. @Anonymous
    @Steve Sailer

    When I was a kid visiting my grandparents, I read some of those GI books. They were piled in with other books in a shed behind the house. Two I particularly liked were volumes by Damon Runyon and Dorothy Parker. The shape of the books resembled that of a reporter's notebook, except instead of being spiral bound they were perfect bound. I somehow got the impression that publishers were making available mostly titles from, at the latest, the 1920s, that were no longer being read. But given to young people who were children when they were first published, they found a new audience.
    However, apparently, I was mistaken. According to this Atlantic article, Publishers Gave Away 122,951,031 Books During World War II, that was not entirely so.
    About The Great Gatsby, the author writes:

    "In 1945, Council picked out an older novel by F. Scott Fitzgerald that had never achieved popular success. It sold just 120 copies the previous year, and another 33 in 1945 before going out of print. The 155,000 copies of The Great Gatsby that they shipped out to the troops dwarfed all its previous print runs combined. Buoyed by that exposure, it would go on to become one of the great publishing successes of the 20th century."

    Replies: @SFG, @J.Ross

    Sandy Petersen got his hands on an old GI novel of Lovecraft, went on to invent the Call of Cthulhu RPG in the 80s, and now Cthulhu is menacing Kristen Stewart.

  349. @The Anti-Gnostic
    @Mr. Anon

    Yes, she's pretty iconoclastic actually. Spinster tomboy who cares very little about the literary world or being popular and making lots of money.

    I was thinking more about the preppy upbringing, Classical education, and celibate, maidenly lifestyle.

    Replies: @SFG

    Just because she doesn’t talk endlessly about her sex life doesn’t mean she’s celibate. She could have a long-term sex buddy, and given her success comes from getting lucky with a novel, something that can’t reliably be replicated, she might be reluctant to marry. An old-school prep might well be discreet.

    • Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic
    @SFG

    This is possible as well.

    I'm sure she could have landed some wealthy guy back in the day in order to get set for life.

    https://i.imgur.com/dIjLj5k.jpg

    The other interesting thing about her is she's a real clothes horse. She also has this teenage-type thing for dramatic poses. It's pretty charming. In fact, Donna if you're reading this let Steve know and we'll get in touch.

    Replies: @SFG

  350. @James J. O'Meara
    @Dave Pinsen

    Delicious Tacos
    Finally, Some Good News
    Amazon Kindle, 2018

    I don’t know what Charles Bukowski would think of a writer calling himself “Delicious Tacos,” but I think he would approve of the writing itself; I certainly do, and you definitely should expose yourself (the metaphor is creepily appropriate on many levels) to the work of an author who describes himself as “no more significant than an insect. Author of the novel Finally, Some Good News, and the collections Savage Spear of the Unicorn, The Pussy and Hot Naked Tits.”

    https://counter-currents.com/2020/06/the-turn-of-the-screwed/

    Replies: @SFG

    I read all his stuff. I think the novel is the best as it gives some overall structure; the rest gets repetitive. Dude could have used an editor, but…no publishing house wants to hear what he has to say.

    I still encourage everyone here to read him, his stuff is short and he gives voice to the young men of our time. And some of the stuff like the various unnatural hair colors women use these days is the sort of social observation lit-fic is supposed to do, but turned on a target the woke young women in publishing would never accept-them.

  351. @HammerJack
    @Bardon Kaldlan

    Yes, thank you. Now will you be so kind as to explain what your relationship with Bardon Kaldian is? Your names are awfully similar. Is it an MPD pronoun kind of thing?

    Replies: @PiltdownMan

    Thank you! Your eyes are way sharper than mine.

    I thought they were the same poster and wondered why Bardon Kaldian occasionally had a post that was completely out of character.

    Bardon Kaldlan (with an “l”) has been posting since 2021 and has about 600 posts here.

    Bardon Kaldian (with an “i”) has been posting since 2015 and has nearly 9,000 posts here.

    • Replies: @HammerJack
    @PiltdownMan

    Yes ..I notice that the usurper (if usurper he be) doesn't format his posts very well too.

    Has Mr Bardon the First had anything to say about this? It's an odd situation.

  352. @Mr. Anon
    @Anon

    In some states it will be banned. That isn't the same as banned everywhere. Even in most of those states there will still be exceptions.

    And there is no way that birth control is going to be banned. Even pretty conservative guys don't want huge families anymore. The Republicans in Congress, many of them, can't even bring themselves to still oppose gay marriage. I don't see a massive return to traditional sexual morality anytime soon.

    I don't see how anyone can say that feminism is dead. It is ascendent in the blue states. And even in the red states, it's basic assumptions - that men and women are not substantially different - are taken for granted.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    I don’t see how anyone can say that feminism is dead. It is ascendent in the blue states. And even in the red states, it’s basic assumptions – that men and women are not substantially different – are taken for granted.

    Disagree. ‘Feminism’ is like ‘the Peter Principle’ or ‘Murphy’s Law’. There’s a short form and a long form definition. The short form is ‘women have options; men have obligations’. That’s not dead, but people see through the gamesmanship that sustains this type of thinking and are less likely to sit still for it. The sort of feminism pushed by Gloria Steinem’s contemporaries – the now-you-see-it-now-you-don’t assertions of androgyny – are unusual except in circumstances where scheming professional women are attempting to seize benefits (see Nancy Hopkins at Harvard).

    Feminist policy – such as the effort to pump up the number of women in the military – is kept going because it is congruent with regime ideology. Regime ideology is kept going via coercion, not because any signature feature of it has actual assent of anyone not enforcing it.

    • Replies: @HFR
    @Art Deco

    Nancy Hopkins is Professor Emerita at MIT (not Harvard). And what benefits are "scheming professional women [presumably like her] attempting to seize" ?

    Replies: @Nicholas Stix

  353. Tex says:
    @Jim Don Bob
    @Tex

    What is Leigh Brackett's best book? I don't want to start at the bottom.

    TIA.

    Replies: @Tex

    What is Leigh Brackett’s best book? I don’t want to start at the bottom.

    For my money, it is Sword of Rhiannon. It’s a Sword & Planet fantasy complete with a sea-covered Mars, time travel, and one of the more twisted hero-heroine relationships to be found in the pulps. Martian galley slave indeed!

    Highly recommended, the early Eric John Stark stories and her Western novel, Follow the Free Wind.

    • Thanks: Jim Don Bob
  354. @SFG
    The interesting question is, how to get around it? Delicious Tacos built up a following first on his blog. I admit a lot of men would rather play at video games. The problem is, video games, like movies, require a lot of money and people to develop, so you don’t get a singular author voice and you’re much more prone to sanction by the powers that be.

    It’s not unheard of for the ‘unrespectable’ art form to become the dominant one commercially and later the respectable one later on. I don’t see that happening here as women are more into books.

    FWIW, I often toy with the idea of using the Hispanic and Jewish cards to slip crimethink into the mainstream. But I would still be swimming upstream as a straight guy, and the alt right would accuse me of entryism. Which way to go?

    Replies: @sayless

    Write mysteries. People who like them can’t get enough of them, and publishers are always looking for more.

  355. @Steve Sailer
    @Mark G.

    Thanks.

    Keep in mind that Raymond Chandler wanted to be an acclaimed literary writer. He'd gone to the same English boarding school as P.G. Wodehouse and C.S. Forester (now that's a genre trifecta!). He'd tried to make it in Bloomsbury, but then drifted into the oil industry in Los Angeles. Then came the Depression and alcoholism. But he somehow retooled himself in mid-life into a Hammett-style writer but better than Hammett.

    The great anecdote is about during the War Chandler was hired to work on the movie screenplay of James. M. Cain's "Double Indemnity." Chandler told director Billy Wilder that Cain's novel's dialogue wouldn't work on the screen and he should rewrite it. Knowing that Chandler and Cain didn't like each other, a dubious Wilder called Cain ... and Cain agreed that Chandler was right.

    Professionalism.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @sayless

    I knew a Shakespearian scholar who was criticized in the English department because he gave an A+ as final grade to one of his undergraduates.

    He defended it by saying, “He writes better than I do.”

  356. I dabbled in fiction, writing three novels during my MS and PhD programs while procrastinating on my thesis and dissertation. I also took a single novel writing class with a tremendously helpful female professor, who flatly told everyone they weren’t going to make it on the first day of class.

    In workshop she took me aside and told me the only field a gruesome figure like a white exmilitary oilman would ever be published in was genre fiction, and to lean into Clancy style pulps, fantasy novels, ir westerns. Even sci-fi was out, as a white male scientist writing science fiction is somehow triggering for agents.

    She was correct. My debut novel, a western, took 18 months just to find an agent at a big house. Any female agent passes immediately, as do female publishers who it was pitched to. It took 2 years for the agent to finally sell it, for no advance and barely acceptable royalties. And it was the same story for my next too books– you never break in or prove yourself in traditional publishing as a new young male author, you’re going to have to go through the whole rigamarole every time. For fun, go on any of the agent aggregating sites for managing submissions and just cruise the names. There might be 1 male agent for 20 female agents, and he is usually older, and not only is flooded with subs from every male author, but still has to rep more female authors just to keep his job. It’s gross.

    I was lucky to get traditionally published at all, it’s just an impossibly biased market run entirely by trust fund white and Jewish thirty something women with a lot of money and no lived experience. Like most male writers I moved on to TV and Film, and comedy, and decided that any future long form prose would be a direct to kindle operation, just to avoid the fucking hassle.

    • Thanks: Dave Pinsen
  357. It’s telling that Sailer talks about literary fiction (a notoriously poor-selling genre) and its domination by white women, but then when grasping for reasons men should be published more, he talks about James Patterson, and how male authors sell more books. Literary fiction is basically an extension of academia, and one in which profit is an unacceptable motivation for Art.

    The best-selling genres are romance/erotica (dominated by women authors and readers) and thriller/adventure (written and consumed by men).

    It’s an open secret that a sizable fraction of bodice-ripper authors are men publishing under female pen names, and a similar proportion of shoot-em-up authors are females published as men.

  358. Tex says:
    @Gordo
    @Bardon Kaldian


    Aeons ago, I exchanged opinions with Jared Taylor at the AmRen site.

    He said that the only novelists worth reading were those dead at least 50 years.

    I had a different opinion.

    So- we settled for 30
     
    Problem is those books will become unavailable.

    Replies: @Tex

    Open Road Media is doing a good job of re-publishing older works of both literary and genre styles in modestly priced e-book editions. I discovered I had quite a bit of their products in my library before I even knew who they were (I pay attention to authors and subject matter, as opposed to publishers). E-books are a bit like paperbacks were in the ’50s, cheap, low-status, yet often much better value for the money.

    Not every e-book is what I consider cheap of course. My price point for e-book fiction is \$3.99-\$5.99 (a lot is in the \$7.99-\$11.99 range), non-fiction \$9.99, but if I really want something I’ll pay a little more.

  359. Tex says:
    @SunBakedSuburb
    @Tex

    "genre fiction"

    It's where it's at. The Literary market shrank amongst male readers after WW2 -- The Big One. Us guys got hooked on paperbacks with rocketships and cutthroat dames and guns-a-blazing on the covers. But not on the same cover.

    "A. Merritt."

    Interesting speculative fiction writer who got his start in the pre-war pulps. The Moon Pool is great.

    "Tex"

    You might be interested in Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove quartet. It follows the adventures of Texas Rangers Call and McCrae. Scots-Irish and Irish. But there are other characters who don't share Call and McCrae's august bloodlines. Outstanding reads and I'm not a Western buff (unless you count Cormac McCarthy's Blood Meridian a Western).

    Replies: @Tex

    You might be interested in Larry McMurtry’s Lonesome Dove quartet. It follows the adventures of Texas Rangers Call and McCrae. Scots-Irish and Irish. But there are other characters who don’t share Call and McCrae’s august bloodlines. Outstanding reads and I’m not a Western buff (unless you count Cormac McCarthy’s Blood Meridian a Western).

    McMurtry has some good stuff and I need to read more of it. Blood Meridian is fantastic (I think I’ve read it four times).

    A lot of the pulp Westerns are quite good, but fly under the radar. It seems Louis L’Amour and Zane Gray are the only widely-known names, outside of hard core Western fans. Luke Short, Elmore Leonard, TV Olsen, HA De Rosso, Brian Garfield, Bill Crider, James Reasoner, and EC Tubb are just a few of the many excellent writers who ought to be more widely known as Western writers.

  360. @middle-aged vet
    @Ghost of Bull Moose

    The guys who are 50 years younger than those old novelists - none of whom will be remembered in 50 years, by the way, except Wolfe, who died a generation before the others - your timing is off - and who are at their level of talent, are not hurting for money or women.

    Replies: @Ghost of Bull Moose

    Not ‘you can’t go home again’ novelist Wolfe, ‘Bonfire’ Wolfe, New Journalism contemporary of Mailer if not strictly a novelist.

    Anyway, I’ve seen Safran Foer in Park Slope, and he’s no Ken Kesey. Just a nebbishy dude who looks like he has adenoids and a chronic runny nose. There’s no shortage of women for anyone in NYC. Half the women in Park Slope have one.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @Ghost of Bull Moose

    Safran Foer's an idiot but his brother is a reasonably good nonfiction writer and gave readers an excellent book on memory, Moonwalking With Einstein. tldr you come up with an arbitrary scheme to order the facts you want go memorize.

    , @middle-aged vet
    @Ghost of Bull Moose

    Got it, I never thought of him as a novelist, but he was amusing.
    The white suits - that was really unmasculine, though. What woman says to herself I want to fling myself upon the dude wearing the white suits? You have to assume he did not care about the impression he made with women, and as such, he was a eunuch in spirit, if not biologically (I don't want to know the details). Eunuchs do not write great literature - never have, never will.

    I seriously do not get the motivation for most of these guys. Why did Roth write the crap he did, why did Updike, who had talent, write sub-Nabokovian prose for some phony publishing house year in and year out for decades? Who were they being subservient to? Seriously, Roth could have had a great time living a real life, the way Hemingway did, and writing about it but he wrote what he wrote, utter crap about being a liberal jerk who had an adolescent understanding of Nietzsche, and spent his time in Manhattan restaurants with pretentious people, and poor Updike could easily have spent his time, after he made his first pile of cash, being a normal human being instead of some weird dude who gets paid by the New Yorker to sit in an empty office in midtown with a typewriter 30 hours a week, hoping to write a few sad lines about what sex means to ugly tall men such as himself.

    Replies: @SFG

  361. @James J. O'Meara
    @Peter Akuleyev

    Actually, I agree. He's also essentially a comic writer; when reading The Metamorphosis to his friends, he would convulse with laughter. I think Evola is responding to the postwar, "Kafka as angsty prophet of the Holocaust" PR job that Max Brod and Schocken Books concocted.

    Replies: @sayless, @Jack D

    Kafka burned most of what he wrote (“many disgusting pages”) so all we have are the masterpieces. But half the manuscripts he kept were lost behind the Iron Curtain, a disaster. He’d given them to someone else for safekeeping. If we’re lucky they’ll come to light someday.

    Great comic writer, yes.

  362. @SFG
    @The Anti-Gnostic

    Just because she doesn’t talk endlessly about her sex life doesn’t mean she’s celibate. She could have a long-term sex buddy, and given her success comes from getting lucky with a novel, something that can’t reliably be replicated, she might be reluctant to marry. An old-school prep might well be discreet.

    Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic

    This is possible as well.

    I’m sure she could have landed some wealthy guy back in the day in order to get set for life.

    The other interesting thing about her is she’s a real clothes horse. She also has this teenage-type thing for dramatic poses. It’s pretty charming. In fact, Donna if you’re reading this let Steve know and we’ll get in touch.

    • Replies: @SFG
    @The Anti-Gnostic

    You don’t know what she looks like now. There was a funny bit on Twitter where some lady said she wished she could have the guy in the picture (it was Axl Rose in his prime). The real Axl shows up and she rejects him, despite his literally being the man in the picture. Dude hasn’t aged well, though in this case the problem was that he aged at all.

    Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic

  363. @HammerJack
    @James J. O'Meara

    IMO, Catherine O'Hara is one of the most cruelly underrated comic actresses ever. Along with Julie Hagerty. Both should have been A-List stars.

    Replies: @James J. O'Meara

    Lola Heatherton … everything that was great about 60s Hollywood/TV. “I love you! I want to bear your children!”

    • Replies: @HammerJack
    @James J. O'Meara

    Thanks. Never heard of her. Will look her up.

  364. @J.Ross
    @Peter D. Bredon

    (I agree with Jim but) consider the brief episode of "the rubber order" featuring John Kenneth Galbraith in the documentary The Second World War (narrated by Lawrence Olivier), in which Galbraith saw an opportunity in Rooseveltian totalitarianism and Hitlerian emergency, to simply take control of all rubber in the United States. Or Robert McNamara. You had these college kids, many of whom thought John Reed was a good guy, running sub-departments. Thing is, the most socialist among them knew how to do math, and that a woman was not a man.

    Replies: @Peter D. Bredon

    ” Thing is, the most socialist among them knew how to do math, and that a woman was not a man.”

    Socialism may or may not be a good idea, but these pre-Woke socialists were honest reformers, not insane ideologues.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    @Peter D. Bredon

    They weren't insane social idealogues. They, except for the relatively mild ones, were economic lunatics.

    , @Hibernian
    @Peter D. Bredon

    They weren't insane social idealogues. They, except for the mildest ones, were economic lunatics.

  365. @Art Deco
    @Mr. Anon

    I don’t see how anyone can say that feminism is dead. It is ascendent in the blue states. And even in the red states, it’s basic assumptions – that men and women are not substantially different – are taken for granted.

    Disagree. 'Feminism' is like 'the Peter Principle' or 'Murphy's Law'. There's a short form and a long form definition. The short form is 'women have options; men have obligations'. That's not dead, but people see through the gamesmanship that sustains this type of thinking and are less likely to sit still for it. The sort of feminism pushed by Gloria Steinem's contemporaries - the now-you-see-it-now-you-don't assertions of androgyny - are unusual except in circumstances where scheming professional women are attempting to seize benefits (see Nancy Hopkins at Harvard).

    Feminist policy - such as the effort to pump up the number of women in the military - is kept going because it is congruent with regime ideology. Regime ideology is kept going via coercion, not because any signature feature of it has actual assent of anyone not enforcing it.

    Replies: @HFR

    Nancy Hopkins is Professor Emerita at MIT (not Harvard). And what benefits are “scheming professional women [presumably like her] attempting to seize” ?

    • Replies: @Nicholas Stix
    @HFR

    After lying and asserting that she and other female faculty were victims of sex discrimination at MIT, Nancy Hopkins got her research money tripled (millions of dollars), a 20% raise in her salary, and the political power of "gender-equity committees" instituted in every department of science and math at MIT.

    And whom did MIT's poobahs assign to "investigate" Nancy Hopkins' charges? Why, none other than Nancy Hopkins! And Nancy Hopkins found that Nancy Hopkins' charges were justified.

    "Is Science Sexist?"
    https://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/2008/07/is-science-sexist.html

  366. @Ian Smith
    @Bardon Kaldian

    I do think it’s interesting how 19th century European writers could write women well, but American writers in the first half of the 20th century bombed in that area.

    It could be the sexist pendulum swing after the double whammy of women’s suffrage and prohibition that Steve has discussed.

    The worst offender that comes to mind is From Here to Eternity by James Jones. There was one scene where a male character makes a woman swoon that was so hammy I closed the book and put it in the pile to sell at the used book store.

    Replies: @John Johnson

    The worst offender that comes to mind is From Here to Eternity by James Jones. There was one scene where a male character makes a woman swoon that was so hammy I closed the book and put it in the pile to sell at the used book store.

    It seems that for quite a period both men and women liked to pretend that women were hopeless romantics that never got dirty.

  367. @James J. O'Meara
    @Peter Akuleyev

    Actually, I agree. He's also essentially a comic writer; when reading The Metamorphosis to his friends, he would convulse with laughter. I think Evola is responding to the postwar, "Kafka as angsty prophet of the Holocaust" PR job that Max Brod and Schocken Books concocted.

    Replies: @sayless, @Jack D

    Not everything that he writes is humorous. A lot of it (e.g. The Trial) was really prophetic of totalitarian methods. If Kafka could have known his entire surviving family (all three of his sisters) would be murdered at Auschwitz he might not have laughed as hard himself. What seemed light and comic in the genteel atmosphere of a salon in a late Austrian Empire provincial capital was seen in a different light later on.

    • Replies: @sayless
    @Jack D

    "The Trial" made me laugh out loud when on the subway. Might have been my state of mind thirty years ago.

  368. @PiltdownMan
    @HammerJack

    Thank you! Your eyes are way sharper than mine.

    I thought they were the same poster and wondered why Bardon Kaldian occasionally had a post that was completely out of character.

    Bardon Kaldlan (with an "l") has been posting since 2021 and has about 600 posts here.

    Bardon Kaldian (with an "i") has been posting since 2015 and has nearly 9,000 posts here.

    Replies: @HammerJack

    Yes ..I notice that the usurper (if usurper he be) doesn’t format his posts very well too.

    Has Mr Bardon the First had anything to say about this? It’s an odd situation.

  369. @James J. O'Meara
    @HammerJack

    Lola Heatherton ... everything that was great about 60s Hollywood/TV. "I love you! I want to bear your children!"

    Replies: @HammerJack

    Thanks. Never heard of her. Will look her up.

  370. I have read about ten comments so far to this article. As I expected, not a single one says anything nice about women, even though this is an article about a prominent White woman going to bat for White men (in a world where hardly any White men, no matter how much FU money they have, will go to bat for White men).

    I won’t bother reading any more. Perhaps if there is one among these 300+ comments where anything nice is said about women, someone will direct me to that comment so that I can properly thank the commenter.

    • LOL: Kylie
    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    @Rosie

    Sorry the ten comments you read let you down, Rosie. I praised Kirsten Bakis's debut novel in a comment here. You can do a control f for "bakis" to find it.

  371. @middle-aged vet
    @Liza

    Liza said - "All of the great, and good, writers, were published long ago." Are you Chinese by the way? I kind of doubt it because Liza has two letters that Chinese people find hard to pronounce, but that being said, excessive ancestor worship is one of the worst things about Chinese culture, and you seem to be all in with ancestor worship.

    I will not be sending you free copies of my next novel no matter how much you beg.

    Replies: @Liza

    Come on, be nice! It’s just an opinion. Like the thousands of others on unz.com, none of which I lose sleep over.

    -Rizer.

  372. @Anonymous
    @Steve Sailer

    When I was a kid visiting my grandparents, I read some of those GI books. They were piled in with other books in a shed behind the house. Two I particularly liked were volumes by Damon Runyon and Dorothy Parker. The shape of the books resembled that of a reporter's notebook, except instead of being spiral bound they were perfect bound. I somehow got the impression that publishers were making available mostly titles from, at the latest, the 1920s, that were no longer being read. But given to young people who were children when they were first published, they found a new audience.
    However, apparently, I was mistaken. According to this Atlantic article, Publishers Gave Away 122,951,031 Books During World War II, that was not entirely so.
    About The Great Gatsby, the author writes:

    "In 1945, Council picked out an older novel by F. Scott Fitzgerald that had never achieved popular success. It sold just 120 copies the previous year, and another 33 in 1945 before going out of print. The 155,000 copies of The Great Gatsby that they shipped out to the troops dwarfed all its previous print runs combined. Buoyed by that exposure, it would go on to become one of the great publishing successes of the 20th century."

    Replies: @SFG, @J.Ross

    I guess also Gatsby is an ideal story for a bored soldier or sailor to fantasize along: class mobility to extreme wealth, class stricture to bitter revenge, good character motivations, wild parties, the question of what one wants to do with his life.

  373. @Ghost of Bull Moose
    @middle-aged vet

    Not 'you can't go home again' novelist Wolfe, 'Bonfire' Wolfe, New Journalism contemporary of Mailer if not strictly a novelist.

    Anyway, I've seen Safran Foer in Park Slope, and he's no Ken Kesey. Just a nebbishy dude who looks like he has adenoids and a chronic runny nose. There's no shortage of women for anyone in NYC. Half the women in Park Slope have one.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @middle-aged vet

    Safran Foer’s an idiot but his brother is a reasonably good nonfiction writer and gave readers an excellent book on memory, Moonwalking With Einstein. tldr you come up with an arbitrary scheme to order the facts you want go memorize.

  374. @Rosie
    I have read about ten comments so far to this article. As I expected, not a single one says anything nice about women, even though this is an article about a prominent White woman going to bat for White men (in a world where hardly any White men, no matter how much FU money they have, will go to bat for White men).

    I won't bother reading any more. Perhaps if there is one among these 300+ comments where anything nice is said about women, someone will direct me to that comment so that I can properly thank the commenter.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen

    Sorry the ten comments you read let you down, Rosie. I praised Kirsten Bakis’s debut novel in a comment here. You can do a control f for “bakis” to find it.

    • Thanks: Rosie
  375. SFG says:
    @The Anti-Gnostic
    @SFG

    This is possible as well.

    I'm sure she could have landed some wealthy guy back in the day in order to get set for life.

    https://i.imgur.com/dIjLj5k.jpg

    The other interesting thing about her is she's a real clothes horse. She also has this teenage-type thing for dramatic poses. It's pretty charming. In fact, Donna if you're reading this let Steve know and we'll get in touch.

    Replies: @SFG

    You don’t know what she looks like now. There was a funny bit on Twitter where some lady said she wished she could have the guy in the picture (it was Axl Rose in his prime). The real Axl shows up and she rejects him, despite his literally being the man in the picture. Dude hasn’t aged well, though in this case the problem was that he aged at all.

    • Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic
    @SFG

    She's holding her own for age 58, like me (actually taken). She's not camera-shy and there are plenty of photos. Definitely an odd, prima donna personality.

  376. @SFG
    @The Anti-Gnostic

    You don’t know what she looks like now. There was a funny bit on Twitter where some lady said she wished she could have the guy in the picture (it was Axl Rose in his prime). The real Axl shows up and she rejects him, despite his literally being the man in the picture. Dude hasn’t aged well, though in this case the problem was that he aged at all.

    Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic

    She’s holding her own for age 58, like me (actually taken). She’s not camera-shy and there are plenty of photos. Definitely an odd, prima donna personality.

  377. @HFR
    @Art Deco

    Nancy Hopkins is Professor Emerita at MIT (not Harvard). And what benefits are "scheming professional women [presumably like her] attempting to seize" ?

    Replies: @Nicholas Stix

    After lying and asserting that she and other female faculty were victims of sex discrimination at MIT, Nancy Hopkins got her research money tripled (millions of dollars), a 20% raise in her salary, and the political power of “gender-equity committees” instituted in every department of science and math at MIT.

    And whom did MIT’s poobahs assign to “investigate” Nancy Hopkins’ charges? Why, none other than Nancy Hopkins! And Nancy Hopkins found that Nancy Hopkins’ charges were justified.

    “Is Science Sexist?”
    https://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/2008/07/is-science-sexist.html

    • Thanks: JackOH
  378. @Jack D
    @Nicholas Stix

    I'm not so sure that is correct either. However, consensual relationships (black women as the concubines of their white masters) were quite common (and have been in all slave societies). Either the master would have a second (or more), black family on the side, in parallel to his white family (the white family might or might not know about their black half-siblings but even if they knew it was not something to be discussed or acknowledged outside of the family - within the family it might be completely accepted and taken for granted. Sometimes the white wife was OK with this, sometimes less so) or else maybe the white guy was a widower and the slave concubine became his wife for all intents and purposes except for legal status. BTW, I have known several white men who have had secret 2nd (white) families - often this only comes out after the man dies. Monogamy is not really the human norm. Sometimes masters treated their black children very well and had them educated as much as possible or set them up in trades. Others less so.

    You couldn't really consider this to be prostitution (or rape) except in the sense that all female/male relationship are prostitution (or rape). There are many (historically most) relationships where the male has greater income or power because historically most women had neither.

    Another typical relationship was between black slaves and indentured servants (of either sex). The status of indentured servants was not much different than that of slaves, except that their "slavery" was for a limited period while slaves served a "life sentence", so relationships between them were common. Some black male slaves had access to income - Washington's chef, Hercules, had a deal where he was allowed to sell the leftovers from Washington's kitchen in Philadelphia and thus considerable cash income. He was a sharp dresser and popular among the (white) servant girls.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @AnotherDad, @Nicholas Stix, @Bardon Kaldlan

    However, consensual relationships (black women as the concubines of their white masters) were quite common (and have been in all slave societies).

    That, too, thanks. I was responding to the institutionalized myth of White-on-black rape as the source of mullatoes.

  379. I got Lionel Shriver’s latest book Should We Stay or Should We Go from the library this morning and read it straight through.

    I liked it better than The Manibles and it is shorter at just 268 pages. It is an interesting meditation on what do we do when we get old. It is quite clever and unlike anything else I have read recently (in a good way).

    Tomorrow’s book is her The Motion of a Body Through Space.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    @Jim Don Bob

    The Motion of a Body Through Space was not as good at Should We Stay or Should We Go, but had some excellent diatribes and was worth reading. Back to the library tomorrow to get more of L Shriver's books.

    She is an excellent writer.

  380. @Jack D
    @James J. O'Meara

    Not everything that he writes is humorous. A lot of it (e.g. The Trial) was really prophetic of totalitarian methods. If Kafka could have known his entire surviving family (all three of his sisters) would be murdered at Auschwitz he might not have laughed as hard himself. What seemed light and comic in the genteel atmosphere of a salon in a late Austrian Empire provincial capital was seen in a different light later on.

    Replies: @sayless

    “The Trial” made me laugh out loud when on the subway. Might have been my state of mind thirty years ago.

  381. @Ghost of Bull Moose
    @middle-aged vet

    Not 'you can't go home again' novelist Wolfe, 'Bonfire' Wolfe, New Journalism contemporary of Mailer if not strictly a novelist.

    Anyway, I've seen Safran Foer in Park Slope, and he's no Ken Kesey. Just a nebbishy dude who looks like he has adenoids and a chronic runny nose. There's no shortage of women for anyone in NYC. Half the women in Park Slope have one.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @middle-aged vet

    Got it, I never thought of him as a novelist, but he was amusing.
    The white suits – that was really unmasculine, though. What woman says to herself I want to fling myself upon the dude wearing the white suits? You have to assume he did not care about the impression he made with women, and as such, he was a eunuch in spirit, if not biologically (I don’t want to know the details). Eunuchs do not write great literature – never have, never will.

    I seriously do not get the motivation for most of these guys. Why did Roth write the crap he did, why did Updike, who had talent, write sub-Nabokovian prose for some phony publishing house year in and year out for decades? Who were they being subservient to? Seriously, Roth could have had a great time living a real life, the way Hemingway did, and writing about it but he wrote what he wrote, utter crap about being a liberal jerk who had an adolescent understanding of Nietzsche, and spent his time in Manhattan restaurants with pretentious people, and poor Updike could easily have spent his time, after he made his first pile of cash, being a normal human being instead of some weird dude who gets paid by the New Yorker to sit in an empty office in midtown with a typewriter 30 hours a week, hoping to write a few sad lines about what sex means to ugly tall men such as himself.

    • Replies: @SFG
    @middle-aged vet

    Not everyone is the outdoor type.

    Philip Roth got to sleep with lots of younger women, and write about it. Updike got to be a famous writer in a big city for a while.

    Not everyone likes the same things.

    Replies: @middle-aged vet

  382. @middle-aged vet
    @Ghost of Bull Moose

    Got it, I never thought of him as a novelist, but he was amusing.
    The white suits - that was really unmasculine, though. What woman says to herself I want to fling myself upon the dude wearing the white suits? You have to assume he did not care about the impression he made with women, and as such, he was a eunuch in spirit, if not biologically (I don't want to know the details). Eunuchs do not write great literature - never have, never will.

    I seriously do not get the motivation for most of these guys. Why did Roth write the crap he did, why did Updike, who had talent, write sub-Nabokovian prose for some phony publishing house year in and year out for decades? Who were they being subservient to? Seriously, Roth could have had a great time living a real life, the way Hemingway did, and writing about it but he wrote what he wrote, utter crap about being a liberal jerk who had an adolescent understanding of Nietzsche, and spent his time in Manhattan restaurants with pretentious people, and poor Updike could easily have spent his time, after he made his first pile of cash, being a normal human being instead of some weird dude who gets paid by the New Yorker to sit in an empty office in midtown with a typewriter 30 hours a week, hoping to write a few sad lines about what sex means to ugly tall men such as himself.

    Replies: @SFG

    Not everyone is the outdoor type.

    Philip Roth got to sleep with lots of younger women, and write about it. Updike got to be a famous writer in a big city for a while.

    Not everyone likes the same things.

    • Replies: @middle-aged vet
    @SFG

    By coincidence - I could be wrong, but if I remember the late 70s correctly, at least one of the women Roth slept with tried - not hard, but she did try - to seduce me.

    True, she was ten or fifteen years older at the time, but ... fortunately we did not have sex, so I do not suffer from living with whatever genital-based germs Roth accumulated over the years.

    when you live long enough in this world you learn things, such as ....

    Some people do not know how to appreciate their gifts. I am certain that poor Roth, the Seinfeldian atheist, lived a terrible unrewarding life, compared to the life he could have lived if he read a little more theology, and poor "weak in his faith but aesthetically lukewarm Christian" Nabokov-fanboy Updike's life was not much better. The poor guy was not even an original writer, he worked in an office to pretend he was needed by a magazine that existed to sell worthless leather goods and cheap to make but expensive to buy luxury brand perfume to the rubes.

    Maybe they both saw the light before they died, but if they did, they did not write about it. Sad !

    Replies: @Nicholas Stix

  383. @SFG
    @middle-aged vet

    Not everyone is the outdoor type.

    Philip Roth got to sleep with lots of younger women, and write about it. Updike got to be a famous writer in a big city for a while.

    Not everyone likes the same things.

    Replies: @middle-aged vet

    By coincidence – I could be wrong, but if I remember the late 70s correctly, at least one of the women Roth slept with tried – not hard, but she did try – to seduce me.

    True, she was ten or fifteen years older at the time, but … fortunately we did not have sex, so I do not suffer from living with whatever genital-based germs Roth accumulated over the years.

    when you live long enough in this world you learn things, such as ….

    Some people do not know how to appreciate their gifts. I am certain that poor Roth, the Seinfeldian atheist, lived a terrible unrewarding life, compared to the life he could have lived if he read a little more theology, and poor “weak in his faith but aesthetically lukewarm Christian” Nabokov-fanboy Updike’s life was not much better. The poor guy was not even an original writer, he worked in an office to pretend he was needed by a magazine that existed to sell worthless leather goods and cheap to make but expensive to buy luxury brand perfume to the rubes.

    Maybe they both saw the light before they died, but if they did, they did not write about it. Sad !

    • Replies: @Nicholas Stix
    @middle-aged vet

    Several years ago, someone (Steve, I believe) wrote that while Updike was married to his first wife and living in Connecticut, he spent many a morning riding his bike around his overpriced neighborhood, stopping off to visit local wives for a "cup of coffee." It seems he was screwing the bejesus out of his neighbors, which may have caused his first divorce.

    There are many things one might call such a life, but boring ain't one of them.

  384. @Peter D. Bredon
    @J.Ross

    " Thing is, the most socialist among them knew how to do math, and that a woman was not a man."

    Socialism may or may not be a good idea, but these pre-Woke socialists were honest reformers, not insane ideologues.

    Replies: @Hibernian, @Hibernian

    They weren’t insane social idealogues. They, except for the relatively mild ones, were economic lunatics.

  385. @Peter D. Bredon
    @J.Ross

    " Thing is, the most socialist among them knew how to do math, and that a woman was not a man."

    Socialism may or may not be a good idea, but these pre-Woke socialists were honest reformers, not insane ideologues.

    Replies: @Hibernian, @Hibernian

    They weren’t insane social idealogues. They, except for the mildest ones, were economic lunatics.

  386. @Jack D
    @Nicholas Stix

    I'm not so sure that is correct either. However, consensual relationships (black women as the concubines of their white masters) were quite common (and have been in all slave societies). Either the master would have a second (or more), black family on the side, in parallel to his white family (the white family might or might not know about their black half-siblings but even if they knew it was not something to be discussed or acknowledged outside of the family - within the family it might be completely accepted and taken for granted. Sometimes the white wife was OK with this, sometimes less so) or else maybe the white guy was a widower and the slave concubine became his wife for all intents and purposes except for legal status. BTW, I have known several white men who have had secret 2nd (white) families - often this only comes out after the man dies. Monogamy is not really the human norm. Sometimes masters treated their black children very well and had them educated as much as possible or set them up in trades. Others less so.

    You couldn't really consider this to be prostitution (or rape) except in the sense that all female/male relationship are prostitution (or rape). There are many (historically most) relationships where the male has greater income or power because historically most women had neither.

    Another typical relationship was between black slaves and indentured servants (of either sex). The status of indentured servants was not much different than that of slaves, except that their "slavery" was for a limited period while slaves served a "life sentence", so relationships between them were common. Some black male slaves had access to income - Washington's chef, Hercules, had a deal where he was allowed to sell the leftovers from Washington's kitchen in Philadelphia and thus considerable cash income. He was a sharp dresser and popular among the (white) servant girls.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @AnotherDad, @Nicholas Stix, @Bardon Kaldlan

    I can’t source this,as I read it about twenty years ago,but I recall a book about blacks in America that states very clearly that the vast majority of white male admixture came about after slavery.
    A lot of that may well be prostitution,as blacks and whites both were left impoverished.
    But some may be simple normal sex and marriage.
    One source for this may be Irish immigrants.
    The South,due to bigotry(?) or just plain stupidity,did not seem to seek Irish immigrants. Perhaps they didn’t want to be polluted by an inferior people?
    The North had no such compunctions,and eagerly sought immigrants. They won the War before it even started.
    The record of the Irish soldier is stunning. The Southern Catholic Irish soldier was even more of a mad dog,surely the most fearsome Americans that ever fought in any war. Many was the battle where Johnny Reb ( that’s reb,not rebbe😉) was held back,perhaps pressing wild flowers,while the Irish regiments poured in.
    Audy Murphy probably came from such people.
    Anyway,after the war what did the Irish have? Bupkus. To get even the most rotten laborers job would be a godsend.
    The Irish, I’m guessing, were very man-heavy in the South. I again,surmise that there were black women,in dire straits,who were available. It was not rape,but simply marriage.
    Interesting that jazz seemed to be borne out of New Orleans. What is the Southern city most associated with Irish? N. O. of course.
    I think the music of the Irish laid the groundwork for that most American music.
    Obviously, there were many American born men in the same position and had kids with black women.

    As for the ” Master” doing the Mic Jagger bit,its doubtful. Slaves were,relatively, treated pretty well. Slaves talked. If a Master,or his son,or brother,as in Jefferson,liked Brown Sugar,this was shared among the slaves. Word got back to the white community. The man was deemed a pig and a fool for indulging.

  387. @Jim Don Bob
    I got Lionel Shriver's latest book Should We Stay or Should We Go from the library this morning and read it straight through.

    I liked it better than The Manibles and it is shorter at just 268 pages. It is an interesting meditation on what do we do when we get old. It is quite clever and unlike anything else I have read recently (in a good way).

    Tomorrow's book is her The Motion of a Body Through Space.

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob

    The Motion of a Body Through Space was not as good at Should We Stay or Should We Go, but had some excellent diatribes and was worth reading. Back to the library tomorrow to get more of L Shriver’s books.

    She is an excellent writer.

  388. @middle-aged vet
    @SFG

    By coincidence - I could be wrong, but if I remember the late 70s correctly, at least one of the women Roth slept with tried - not hard, but she did try - to seduce me.

    True, she was ten or fifteen years older at the time, but ... fortunately we did not have sex, so I do not suffer from living with whatever genital-based germs Roth accumulated over the years.

    when you live long enough in this world you learn things, such as ....

    Some people do not know how to appreciate their gifts. I am certain that poor Roth, the Seinfeldian atheist, lived a terrible unrewarding life, compared to the life he could have lived if he read a little more theology, and poor "weak in his faith but aesthetically lukewarm Christian" Nabokov-fanboy Updike's life was not much better. The poor guy was not even an original writer, he worked in an office to pretend he was needed by a magazine that existed to sell worthless leather goods and cheap to make but expensive to buy luxury brand perfume to the rubes.

    Maybe they both saw the light before they died, but if they did, they did not write about it. Sad !

    Replies: @Nicholas Stix

    Several years ago, someone (Steve, I believe) wrote that while Updike was married to his first wife and living in Connecticut, he spent many a morning riding his bike around his overpriced neighborhood, stopping off to visit local wives for a “cup of coffee.” It seems he was screwing the bejesus out of his neighbors, which may have caused his first divorce.

    There are many things one might call such a life, but boring ain’t one of them.

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