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Joe Klein on "The Shattering Horror of the Moment" When Dick Durbin Got Out-Argued on Immigration Policy
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From the New York Times:

Donald Trump and Immigration

By Joe Klein, Oct. 8, 2019, 5:00 a.m. ET

Joe Klein is the author of seven books, including “Primary Colors,” “Woody Guthrie: A Life” and “Charlie Mike.”

BORDER WARS
Inside Trump’s Assault on Immigration
By Julie Hirschfeld Davis and Michael D. Shear

On the morning of Jan. 11, 2018, Senator Richard Durbin, Democrat of Illinois, received a phone call from the president of the United States, Donald J. Trump, summoning him to the White House. Durbin had been working for months with Senator Lindsey Graham, Republican of South Carolina, on a deal to grant legal status to the so-called “Dreamers” — children who had been brought illegally into the country by their parents when they were very young, had grown up here and knew only the United States as home. The news from Trump was encouraging. “Wow,” Durbin told an aide. “I think we may actually have a deal.”

Durbin and Graham — who received a similar call that morning — expected a private meeting with the president, but as they waited in the West Wing lobby a phalanx of hard-liners arrived, led by Stephen Miller, the young mastermind of Trump’s draconian immigration policies. Were they being ambushed? Durbin wondered. Indeed, they were. …

Trump’s bigoted eruption was instant news. But the context provided by the New York Times journalists Julie Hirschfeld Davis and Michael D. Shear in their exquisitely reported “Border Wars” reveals the shattering horror of the moment

Uh, the President of the United States held a meeting in the Oval Office with Senators pushing one plan and his own topic experts who disagreed with them. The President wound up siding with his own experts.

If that’s not a moment of shattering horror, I don’t know what is.

, the mercurial unreliability and instability of the president. Davis and Shear perform this contextual service time and again throughout their book, which is essential reading for those searching for the “beating heart” of the Trump administration. The authors argue it is immigration policy, and who can dispute that? From his very first news conference as a presidential candidate, when he denounced Mexican border-crossers as rapists and criminals, a rancid nativism — aimed at people who have darker skins than Norwegians — has been Trump’s tribalist weapon of choice, his scalpel prodding the worst impulses of the American spirit.

Tribalist, I tell you, tribalist!

Nativism isn’t as American as apple pie — indeed, it is the very opposite of our country’s heterogeneous intention

Huh?

— but it has been with us since the Irish began arriving in droves in the mid-19th century. It has almost always been a minor chord in American politics, but it has flared from time to time — with the Chinese Exclusion Act in 1882, the harsh restrictions on southern and eastern Europeans in 1924, and again today, 50 years after Lyndon Johnson liberalized immigration policy in 1965.

… They wait 280 pages to offer a biographical sketch of Miller, which raises more questions than it answers. He is the descendant of Jewish refugees, it turns out. His family owns a chain of grocery stores. He grew up in ultra-blue Santa Monica, Calif., but distinguished himself from the crowd as a right-wing provocateur in high school. He rose through congressional staff ranks and became a top aide to the immigrant-phobic Senator Jeff Sessions of Alabama. His co-workers think he’s a nice guy. But his policies — and his pursuit of them — are stunningly heartless. We need to know more about him.

I’m picking up a definite Darkness at Noon vibe for what Klein has in mind for knowing more about this tribalist traitor Miller.

Joe Klein, age 73, is an old-fashioned Jewish liberal from an earlier period when it was assumed that expressions of natural ethnocentric pride and affection in one’s ancestors, such as Joe’s for his Ellis Island era relatives, had to be justified in terms of universal Kantian principles.

So this has involved a huge amount of retconning American history and thought to make anti-anti-immigrationism the Zeroth Amendment as carved onto the Statue of Liberty in 1776 by Founding Mother Emma Lazarus.

There is a lot to be said for Kantian universalism within countries and to a lesser extent between countries. But Kantian universalism across time is obviously nuts. Assuming that you must forever keep policy X because your great-grandparents benefited from policy X, as so many like Klein argue we must, is a really bad idea.

This too shall pass” is one of the wisest things anybody ever said.

In contrast, Italian Americans generally don’t feel it’s ethnically traitorous to support a different immigration policy tailored to the 21st century than the one tailored to the 19th Century that helped their great-grandparents. This is partly due to lesser ethnocentrism among Italians and also to less intellectualism.

I suspect that due to differential fertility and immigration from Israel, American Jews over time will drift toward the Italian-American attitude.

 
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  1. Sorry about the double-posting of this item. Here’s the one comment the older one received before I tried to get rid of it:

    Kronos says:
    October 8, 2019 at 10:41 pm GMT(Edit-3493057)
    This morning I couldn’t believe my eyes. There was a white guy mowing my lawn with his truck and tools out front. Trump’s immigration policies are surely working.

  2. anon[253] • Disclaimer says:

    (((Joe Klein))) frets about:

    has been Trump’s tribalist weapon of choice,

    Do they have to always project? Always? Always?

    Yes. Yes, they do.

    • Replies: @Pop Warner
  3. IHTG says:

    Senator Tom Cotton also had a role in the “ambush” that blocked that immigration deal.

  4. Klein, with his melodrama, should take a break already. If Dickie Durbin was actually ambushed on the street by disgruntled democrats, that might be a drama worth writing about. Trump disagreed with him and little Lindsey. The horror. I’m underwhelmed over here.

    • Replies: @Prester John
  5. syonredux says:

    on a deal to grant legal status to the so-called “Dreamers” — children who had been brought illegally into the country by their parents when they were very young, had grown up here and knew only the United States as home.

    Uh, Joe, you do know that “Dreamers” are defined as people who came here before the age of 16…..So, not quite suckling infants….

    The meeting lapsed into a notorious Trump rant — about accepting immigrants from “shithole countries.”

    Some times the truth is unpleasant….

    “Wait a minute — why do we want people from Haiti here?” Why not more people from Norway?

    Yeah, can someone give me a logical reason for wanting Haitians over Norwegians? And preferably one not based on “hate-YT” logic…

    Trump’s bigoted eruption was instant news.

    Only bigots prefer Norwegians over Haitians.

    But the context provided by the New York Times journalists Julie Hirschfeld Davis and Michael D. Shear in their exquisitely reported “Border Wars” reveals the shattering horror of the moment,

    I’m literally shaking as I write this….Maybe I should switch to decaf?

    From his very first news conference as a presidential candidate, when he denounced Mexican border-crossers as rapists and criminals, a rancid nativism

    Should I have gone with “rancid?” Doesn’t that imply that a thing is in a state of decay?

    — aimed at people who have darker skins than Norwegians —

    Thank God Trump said Norwegians. This article would be a lot tougher to write if he had said Koreans.

    has been Trump’s tribalist weapon of choice, his scalpel prodding the worst impulses of the American spirit.

    Wait, do I wanna use “scalpel” here? Wouldn’t that imply that Trump is going to cut the impulses out? Screw it. Let the editor make the call (Stuff still gets edited, right?)

    Nativism isn’t as American as apple pie — indeed, it is the very opposite of our country’s heterogeneous intention

    Yeah, that’s what E pluribus unum means, right? Promoting heterogeneity? Does anyone know Latin around here…..

    but it has been with us since the Irish began arriving in droves in the mid-19th century.

    What, now you’re telling me that the 1790 Naturalization Act limited naturalization to “free white person[s] … of good character”. Goddamitt….

    It has almost always been a minor chord in American politics, but it has flared from time to time — with the Chinese Exclusion Act in 1882, the harsh restrictions on southern and eastern Europeans in 1924, and again today, 50 years after Lyndon Johnson liberalized immigration policy in 1965.

    Kinda weird how it flares up in response to immigration…..It’s almost as though there’s a pattern….

    But the Trump administration’s “remedies” have been flagrantly — and purposefully — punitive. The astonishing policy of separating children from their parents at the border was imposed as a deterrent: An experiment at the El Paso portal showed that illegal crossing declined 64 percent when word got out that children would be taken from their parents at the border.

    Whoa. Should I leave that in? I mean, that sounds kinda effective….

    They wait 280 pages to offer a biographical sketch of Miller, which raises more questions than it answers. He is the descendant of Jewish refugees, it turns out. His family owns a chain of grocery stores. He grew up in ultra-blue Santa Monica, Calif., but distinguished himself from the crowd as a right-wing provocateur in high school. He rose through congressional staff ranks and became a top aide to the immigrant-phobic Senator Jeff Sessions of Alabama. His co-workers think he’s a nice guy. But his policies — and his pursuit of them — are stunningly heartless. We need to know more about him.

    And by knowing more about him, I mean someone’s gotta dig up some dirt on this guy…

    In this account, Trump is as he ever was: craven, feckless, moody, narcissistic, mendacious, forgetful. He is sympathetic to the Dreamers he meets in private, but is willing to place their lives and futures in jeopardy to feed the passions of his supporters. He is addicted to inflaming the basest instincts of his base.

    Yeah, bigot. You need to be like Obama, and inflame the highest instincts of your base….

    • Replies: @anon
    , @jon
    , @Faraday's Bobcat
    , @JoKo
  6. Logan says:

    it has been with us since the Irish began arriving in droves in the mid-19th century.

    Idiot clearly isn’t aware that B. Franklin wrote an anti-German screed 100 years before. Mid-18th century.

    https://qz.com/904933/a-history-of-american-anti-immigrant-bias-starting-with-benjamin-franklins-hatred-of-the-germans/

    • Replies: @syonredux
  7. In reply to Kronos:

    The white landscaper, albus terrascapus, is an endangered species, but if we keep helping him, he might hold on and someday multiply. I mow my own grass, but I have a white landscaper take care of the leaves every fall. He will appear soon to do that job this American won’t do.

    And now, being for the benefit of Mr. Klein, imagine a President of the United States who gives precedence to his own People.

    The horror! The horror!


    Obligatory Apocalypse Now reference

  8. syonredux says:
    @Logan

    Franklin had sound ideas regarding German immigration:

    Yet I am not for refusing entirely to admit them [Germans] into our Colonies: all that seems to be necessary is, to distribute them more equally, mix them with the English, establish English Schools where they are now too thick settled, and take some care to prevent the practice lately fallen into by some of the Ship Owners, of sweeping the German Gaols to make up the number of their Passengers.I say I am not against the Admission of Germans in general, for they have their Virtues, their industry and frugality is exemplary; They are excellent husbandmen and contribute greatly to the improvement of a Country.

    https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Franklin/01-04-02-0173

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
  9. Altai says:

    They wait 280 pages to offer a biographical sketch of Miller, which raises more questions than it answers. He is the descendant of Jewish refugees, it turns out. His family owns a chain of grocery stores. He grew up in ultra-blue Santa Monica, Calif., but distinguished himself from the crowd as a right-wing provocateur in high school.

    And… Miller isn’t an immigrant, why is he obliged to take on some theoretical ‘immigrant interest’ in politics? This is what I find fascinating. They went after Cruz (And Trump himself) with the same thesis. But if the reason their ancestors were supposed to have an interest in free immigration, why are they, native born, supposed to have the same interest? Why is he not expected to be assimilated and possess an American perspective? Why does that make sense?

    It’s been normalised but Klein et al should be careful lest people start to wonder why an obligation seems to fall on people of immigrant backgrounds to always and forever support immigration out of a presumed self-interest when it obviously isn’t in their self-interest, they’re not immigrants what does immigration do for them? The answer is further immigration damages (Further displaces and reduces in total number) the interests of those of non-immigrant or older immigrant stock. And that sounds like a weird policy of ethnic conflict and war against the descendants of the people who let their ancestors in, that sounds like something of very debatable morality to me.

    • Replies: @Mr McKenna
  10. syonredux says:
    @Buzz Mohawk

    I still recall the day when I came across Paul Krugman’s papers on how to manage the “White people problem ” (WPP for short)….

    “There were no practical hints to interrupt the magic current of phrases, unless a kind of note at the foot of the last page, scrawled evidently much later, in an unsteady hand, may be regarded as the exposition of a method. It was very simple, and at the end of that moving appeal to every altruistic sentiment it blazed at you, luminous and terrifying, like a flash of lightning in a serene sky: ‘Exterminate all the brutes!’

    • Replies: @Altai
    , @Mr McKenna
  11. J.Ross says:

    https://www.npr.org/programs/fresh-air/2019/10/08/768222377/fresh-air-for-oct-8-2019-cambridge-analytica-whistleblower-christopher-wylie

    This is very similar to the recent Terry Gross interview with the establishment’s star witness to the Russia Nothingburger, Christopher Wylie, former director of research at Cambridge Analytica, really really really gay Canadian, and living embodiment of the establishment. He’s written a book without managing to have anything new in it, and wants to restart the fun of two years ago.
    It’s fluffy and emotion-dependent (one nice wierd experience was switching channels from an NPR news show full of namecalling, innuendo, and personal blogposting, to Sean Hannity’s opinion show discussing about the same topic but with quotations, dates, figures, and specific names).
    One interesting thing is that this prince really, really, really hates you. He hates you unabashedly. He hates your dingey little racist lair. He hates your cheap food. He hates you pretending that your privileged life has problems (privilege is real to this gay government contractor who headed cutting edge research, he specifically says that for white straight men, the world is your oyster, or something very near that). This is a “progressive” unacquainted with the idea of at least appearing to seize the high ground. After all, there’s no cross examination by a Trump supporter, or someone who does not hate the working class, so why not decry the average American in terms that would not be airable if applied to say Israelis? He concludes that we should give Facebook unlimited power and not question their censorship. Free speech online from a public carrier would be playing into the hands of the Russians.
    The establishment is still relying on nobody being able to check their claims. They censor you off platforms, they don’t let you on their shows (BBC Radio did let on Bob Barr, not a strong Trump supporter but also not accepting this impeachment coup nonsense, just to China Syndrome him, let him sqawk briefly and then have a “rebuttal” from a Good Person). While you’re excluded, they call you names and dismiss your undiscussed facts as hate and lying. Germany tried this years ago with Pegida (these people are unemployed losers bitter about failing to adapt to the new economy and blaming foreigners). This is an especially ridiculous strategy for the Ukraine Thing because everything is totally publicly checkable, both Trump’s phone call and Joe Biden playing mafioso to get a prosecutor fired within six hours.
    Crucially, Wylie never repairs the single biggest gap in the case against free speech. Should a convicted pedophile not be able to warn you that your house is on fire? Should it matter that damning information about Democrats came from Americans who were called Russians? Wylie claims credit for the tide coming in. Because Cambridge Analytica sought and effected to influence people, it simply must have influenced people — and influenced them beyond, say, persuading them as would be legitimate. Those people are not adults, whose votes should count, or whose minds were rationally changed. Never mind police statistics, never mind the Most Important Graph in the World — there is no such thing as evidence. Our arguments are news and their arguments are Russian mesmerism. At one point he hysterically decries a political campaign hammering out slogans. I’m not making that up, he actually does this: he implies that working out a memorable slogan is some latter-day wizardry worthy of Rasputin.

  12. anon[253] • Disclaimer says:
    @syonredux

    But the context provided by the New York Times journalists Julie Hirschfeld Davis and Michael D. Shear in their exquisitely reported “Border Wars” reveals the shattering horror of the moment,

    Shear’s book, Border Wars: Inside Trump’s Assault on Immigration, co-written with Julie Hirschfield Davis, will be published by Simon & Schuster in October 2019.

    Pure coincidence, I am sure. All coincidence, nothing to see here.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  13. Altai says:
    @syonredux

    I still recall the day when I came across Paul Krugman’s papers on how to manage the “White people problem ” (WPP for short)….

    Eric Kaufmann wrote a book with that premise (Which is treated as if he is possessed of great empathy for his subjects by the media) and Andrew Yang speaks about it often.

  14. @Buzz Mohawk

    I don’t see any method at all, sir.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
  15. OT: Elizabeth “Pocahontas” Warren’s claimed she had been fired when pregnant – it wasn’t true!

    https://www.zerohedge.com/political/elizabeth-warrens-story-about-getting-fired-being-visibly-pregnant-unravels-after

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  16. Were they being ambushed?

    How pathetic. Is Durbin such a pussy that he can’t stand his ground against some WH policy advisers? Imagine George McGovern or Wayne Morse acting this way. They’d relish the chance to go toe-to-toe before the cameras, or with the cameras off. But this shell of a “man,” Durbin, whines that Trump pulled a fast one. This offers good insight into the utter cowardice of modern liberals. Afraid of actual debate, TV cameras and a free exchange of ideas. (See also: Steve Kerr)

  17. jon says:
    @syonredux

    Great post.
    This part struck me as odd, too:

    his scalpel prodding the worst impulses of the American spirit

    How, exactly, would you prod with a scalpel. Weirdly mixed metaphor. Sugegsts the TDS is bad in this one.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
  18. How about 50,000 Syrian refugees next door to Joe Klein? Or possibly Haitians.

  19. Anonymous[300] • Disclaimer says:

    If Joe Klein is for equality and against tribalism, he should denounce the US for favoring Israel over all other nations and favoring Jewish identity/interests over those of Arabs and Muslims.

    I hear nothing from him on that. He’s all about JSP or Jewish Supremacist Power.

  20. Reading the Times these days reminds me of when I attended a good friend’s bar mitzvah in NY, aged 14 or so. I am a Lutheran (with many complaints against current doctrine). Anyway, there was a well-meaning old nudnik in the row behind me during the ceremony, and he kept poking me and telling what page of the text we were supposed to be on. It was making this guy crazy.

    At one point I told the guy “I’m not Jewish!”

    And at the after-party’s buffet, I made the innocent mistake of asking for ham. Really.

  21. @James N. Kennett

    I suspect this story about her school teacher career is more ambiguous than simply true or false. Warren was due to deliver just as school was starting in September, so her principal probably had some opinions on whether the school should spend the summer looking for a good replacement for her.

    • Replies: @Barnard
    , @Haha
  22. @anon

    Klein is writing a book review of that book.

    • Replies: @anon
  23. @syonredux

    “Wait a minute — why do we want people from Haiti here?” Why not more people from Norway?

    Trump denies having said this. It is Durbin’s version of what he said.

    Trump could have said it, but he says he didn’t say it, which in past times would be considered significant. Of course the “shithole” version is now factastically accuriffic and may therefore be reported as a direct quote by Any and All.

    • Agree: Mr McKenna
    • Replies: @Ben tillman
  24. Barnard says:
    @Steve Sailer

    It doesn’t work like that. The school had already offered her a contract in April, at that point, they had no legal way of getting out of it in June. If she wanted to keep the job, all she had to do was sign the contract. Finding a long term sub for maternity leave would be easier than scrambling over the summer to find a full time teacher after everyone decent in the area has already signed a contract. She hated the job and used the baby as an excuse with her husband to quit and change careers. From the comments she has made about that divorce, it sounds like Mr. Warren wasn’t terrible excited when she developed these ambitious career goals. Warren is lying again and got caught.

  25. J.Ross says:

    Joke Line isn’t all bad, he did, like, the one popular analysis of Vietnam vets being normal and well-adjusted people, instead of violent psychopaths by flashbacks.
    I don’t have a reason to post the image link below this “more” tag, but I can try to warn you not to look at it.

  26. J.Ross says:
    @jon

    Very odd. And who would attribute anything remotely scalpelesque to Trump’s verbal style?

  27. George says:

    Feel good immigration story of the day with a bonus Ukraine connection.

    ‘Daughter, forgive me.’ Weeping birth mom who gave up Ukrainian ‘dwarf’ denies US adoptee is an adult ‘sociopath’ masquerading as a child and reveals she is still only 16-years-old

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7547259/Birth-mother-Ukrainian-dwarf-denies-claims-adult-sociopath-masquerading-child.html

  28. @Steve Sailer

    @Steve
    “I suspect that due to differential fertility and immigration from Israel, American Jews over time will drift toward the Italian-American attitude” Curious what you mean by this.

    By differential fertility rates I assume you mean orthodox starting to outnumber the more liberal (and childless or out-marrying) secular Jews.

    Is there some incoming migration of Israeli Jews to America that im unaware of?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  29. @anon

    While giving a glowing review of Hirschfeld Davis and Shear, no less. Friends help each other!

  30. Haha says:
    @Steve Sailer

    Tucker Carlson had a good segment on this last night showing multiple video clips. I suggest you watch it. Apparently they offered her a contract to stay on.

    https://video.foxnews.com/v/6093028974001/#sp=show-clips

  31. Carol says:
    @Steve Sailer

    Or, you woke up in Montana.

  32. @yungjewkid

    The Jewish population of Israel is growing so fast, that lots of them show up in Valley Village and Woodland Hills.

    • Replies: @Lot
  33. @Steve Sailer

    In rural areas, like Upstate New York or Southern Illinois, most of the landscaping crews are white. It is rare in areas like these to see Hispanic landscape workers.

    • Agree: slumber_j
  34. @Altai

    Why does that make sense?

    If any of your descendants, going back to, say, Adam and Eve, ever crossed a border or moved from one place to another, then ipso facto you must be in favor of flooding white countries (but only white countries) with hundreds of millions of POCs. It’s not about morality, it’s just simple logic! Sounds legit, right?

    • Agree: Ben tillman
    • Replies: @Altai
  35. Idiot Compassionism explains a lot when it comes ideas of immigration laws.

  36. anon[273] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer

    Klein is writing a book review of that book.

    How could I ever confuse a book review with yet another advocacy / editorial piece?

    I am ashamed.

  37. bgates says:

    The meeting lapsed into a notorious Trump rant — about accepting immigrants from “shithole countries.”

    Democrats 2006-2009: “stupid libertarians and everyone else on the right want to turn this country into Somalia!”

    Democrats 2010-2016: “heartless immigration restrictionists and everyone else on the right want to prevent the immigration of everybody trying to flee wretched places like Somalia!”

    Democrats 2017-present: “evil Trump and the extreme right make bigoted criticisms of Somalia!”

  38. Paul says:

    It would be easier to take Jewish Joe Klein’s moral posturing more seriously if he would at some time call for Israel to open itself to the right of return to the ethnically cleansed, indigenous Palestinians. And what about the African black immigrants that Israel deports?

  39. @syonredux

    Remarkably parallel with Noel Ignatiev:

    “The way to abolish the white race is to challenge, disrupt and eventually overturn the institutions and behavior patterns that reproduce the privileges of whiteness, including the schools, job and housing markets, and the criminal justice system. The abolitionists do not limit themselves to socially acceptable means of protest, but reject in advance no means of attaining their goal.”

  40. Altai says:
    @Mr McKenna

    There’s a lot of ‘There was a black man in Munich in 1749!’, ‘Something, something 1066, bloody invasion’ and that’s what this thing that is happening isn’t actually happening!

  41. The Learned Elders Of Wye have discovered that China will not welcome them, so now we can look forward to non-stop demonization of China!

    http://voxday.blogspot.com/2019/10/mailvox-report-from-hong-kong.html

  42. Every NYT reporter seem to be cashing in by writing Trump-hate books for their Trump-hating readers. The subtitle for all of these could be “Old News from Last Year.” So they have to sex them up with an extra-helping of Trump hate. Plus a double-plus Trump-hating review in the NYT flogging their book for how wonderfully hateful of Trump it is.

    At least they know their market.

    • Replies: @Pericles
  43. M_Young says:
    @Steve Sailer

    I’ve noticed a few white guys now working at my local Taco Bell. Strangely they look to me like young to mid 20s rather than teens. They are ‘customer facing’, not cooking, but still…

    Strangely, In-n-Out has managed to find Americans to staff their restaurants forever; their employees will almost always speak unaccented English and reflect the mix of the neighborhood (or in the case of one store in Escondido, be whiter than the surrounding area).

  44. Lot says:
    @Steve Sailer

    What’s the net flow? I’d guess about zero. The USA gets the secular half Jewish/half Russians who never fit in well in Israel, plus a lot of academics, while exporting to Israel mostly conservative Zionist pure AJs.

    Many of the USA’s high fertility black hat Jews are anti-Zionist. Others may just like the USA better: lower cost of living and their own established yiddish speaking enclaves.

  45. Lot says:

    “Assuming that you must forever keep policy X because your great-grandparents benefited from policy X, as so many like Klein argue we must, is a really bad idea.”

    Worth repeating just like this, here and elsewhere. It is such a stupid form of argument, and is easier to see when abstracted into general form.

  46. M_Young says:

    If your great grandfather was an oil geologist, are you obliged to support continued extraction and burning of fossil fuels?

    If your grandfather was an engineer for GM, do you have to support continued reliance on automobiles as our main form of transportation?

    If your grandmother owned a bordello in 1930s Reno, and you inherited great wealth from that, can you not still be against prostitution?

    • Replies: @Marty
  47. Joseph A. says:

    Which nation has given America our best immigrants? Ruling out the settler British, French (as if the latter were even in the running!), and the Dutch, I’d say the Germans (go Midwest!) followed by the Italians. For the first wave, Germans over the Irish; for the second, the Italians over all those other people. Czechs may have made better citizens, but there weren’t as many, and they certainly weren’t as colorful. And pizza. For a 20th century (third wave) group, maybe the high class Cubans?

    If I were from the Upper Midwest, I might be more sympathetic to the Scandinavians, but I just can’t get over their cluelessness. They may work as hard as Germans, but they’re lacking in some hard-nosed sense.

  48. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Joseph A.

    If I were from the Upper Midwest, I might be more sympathetic to the Scandinavians, but I just can’t get over their cluelessness. They may work as hard as Germans, but they’re lacking in some hard-nosed sense.

    They are good people to be around in a dictatorship but you don’t want the dumb bastards voting, that’s for sure.

  49. Marty says:
    @M_Young

    That first one will be quite effective. That I never thought of it myself makes me rather sad. I assume you know the story of why Reno bordellos went away. In 1942 so many Army-airmen were getting the clap that the base commander gave the city fathers an ultimatum – either close the houses or your downtown will be off-limits to all base personnel.

  50. …. a rancid nativism — aimed at people who have darker skins than Norwegians — has been Trump’s tribalist weapon of choice, his scalpel prodding the worst impulses of the American spirit.

    Anyone else feel like the real divide in modern American is between journalists who’d write something like the phrase above without shame, and those who would regard it as unpublishable puffery—or indeed, people to whom this phrase would never occur?

    Also, I thought scalpels were generally used to cut, not prod. “Prodding the impulses”?

    • Replies: @Known Fact
  51. Re Italian-Americans as iSteve mentions, a key, often-unsaid factor, is that the largely Catholic groups, Mediterraneans, East Europeans, Irish etc, in fact often never felt truly ‘American’

    There is a rather big overall gulf between the older ‘core’ white Americans, of Anglo-Germanic Protestant stock, versus the newer white arrivals from largely Roman Catholic countries, who often felt slighted as ‘2nd class’ US citizens, until the immigration floodgates opened after the 1960s

    One notices that Mediterraneans and East Europeans are less inclined to participate in the kind of iSteve / Unz Review lamentations about what is happening in the USA, as these groups never really felt fully ‘American’ in the first place

    As the USA social fabric crumbles, Mediterraneans and East Europeans and Irish and Greeks etc, are finding it easier to just pack up sticks and leave the USA, many in fact already using European laws on ancestral qualifications for citizenship, to get EU passports and ‘go home’ … For all the issues in Europe re migrants etc, EU countries remain far more ‘European’ stock percentage-wise, than the USA, and the non-Protestant peoples kept more feelings for lands of their ancestors

    Older ‘classic’ Americans of English, Scottish, Dutch, German, Scandinavian heritages, really became somewhat of a ‘new’ people different from those they left behind in the old world … and today, it is these people who are much more troubled about what is happening in the USA

    Anecdotally, it also seems easier for later-arriving non-Protestant ‘alt-whites’ retired on pensions, to reside outside the USA, which was never quite fully ‘their’ homeland, in the same way it was for the ‘core’ Anglo-Germanic Protestants

    It’s worth noticing too, that the US Supreme Court, imposing a series of decisions USA identitarians don’t like, is mostly Roman Catholic & Jewish … i.e., members of groups that a Leninist oligarchy would pick to push down the more native USA petit bougeoisie … There’s regular complaints on white-identity websites about, e.g., Irish people going along with the oligarchy as hired help, to sabotage interests of the classic Protestant Americans

    • LOL: IHTG
    • Replies: @Ian M.
  52. @Unladen Swallow

    You’re an errand boy, sent by grocery clerks, to collect a bill.

  53. Wilkey says:

    Durbin and Graham…expected a private meeting with the president, but as they waited in the West Wing lobby a phalanx of hard-liners arrived, led by Stephen Miller, the young mastermind of Trump’s draconian immigration policies. Were they being ambushed? Durbin wondered. Indeed, they were…

    When two members of the World’s Greatest Deliberative Body (TM) are upset at having to deliberate.

    And congrats, Joe Klein! You just won the Pulitzer Prize for Most Pejoratives Used in a Single Paragraph!

  54. Wilkey says:

    Nativism isn’t as American as apple pie — indeed, it is the very opposite of our country’s heterogeneous intention — but it has been with us since the Irish began arriving in droves in the mid-19th century. It has almost always been a minor chord in American politics, but it has flared from time to time — with the Chinese Exclusion Act in 1882, the harsh restrictions on southern and eastern Europeans in 1924…

    Basically the Left runs two parallel histories of the United States: one racist, vile, bigoted (slavery, the Chinese Exclusion Act, etc) and one utopian (“The Founding Fathers always meant this country to be for everyone!”). Which one they happen to deploy at any given time depends upon the circumstances, and on whom they are trying to con.

    Pre-independence the British limited immigration to prevent conflict with the natives. Post-independence Congress passed a naturalization law limiting citizenship to free whites. Mass immigration of non-whites wasn’t much of a concern early on because it simply wasn’t happening, apart from the importation of slaves (and lots of people weren’t happy about that, some for reasons that would be regarded as rather racist). When non-white immigration did start to take off it was quickly limited. The Chinese Exclusion Act was written one year before Emma Lazarus wrote the Zeroth Amendment. Unlike the Zeroth Amendment, it was actually “ratified,” with supermajority votes in both the Senate (by a 2-1 margin) and House (by a 5-1 margin).

    To acknowledge that our country, instead of being either one extreme or the other, was simply searching for balance in a very complicated world doesn’t serve their purposes. The fact is that open borders fanaticism was not the reality for the vast majority of this country’s history. For basically the first 180 years as a nation we had immigration laws that counter the myth of “America is for All.” Not until 1965 were our laws anywhere close to what Klein claims they were, but even now we do not have de jure open borders. In fact what Klein is largely to objecting is Trump’s effort to enforce laws that are actually on the books. Congress has never passed a law throwing the borders open to all, and has never legalized the people living here illegally, despite frequent opportunities to do so. With honest language and a few simple compromises it could have easily granted amnesty to the so-called “Dreamers” at almost anytime in the last 19 years. It has repeatedly refused to do so.

    The 1924 immigration law was simply a response to the question of how to fairly decide who gets to come here. There really is no completely fair way. Do you want immigrants to represent the overall global population, or to mirror the current ethnic balance of the country? Do you admit only or mostly skilled immigrants, or poor uneducated people without regard to their ability to find employment? Do you limit it to people from countries that have a reputation of sending people who turn into solid workers (e.g., Chinese and Indians), or do you keep admitting people from countries no matter how bad your previous experiences with them?

    As John Derbyshire likes to say, you have to decide somehow. The only way to avoid any sort of biased policy is to either let no one in or let everyone in, and neither of those options is very reasonable (though the former is far more reasonable than the latter).

    • Agree: Dtbb
  55. One of the greatest and most popular movies of all times, The Godfather (including sequels), is basically a story about immigration. How do the heroes in the movie succeed? By crime and deadly violence. When they are killed, does the crime and violence end? No, they are taken up by their younger relatives. So how do we reconcile this popularity with the popularity of virtually unrestricted immigration? How is it possible that the two manage to coexist so peacefully, given their inherent mutual contradictions?

  56. “From his very first news conference as a presidential candidate, when he denounced Mexican border-crossers as rapists and criminals, a rancid nativism — aimed at people who have darker skins than Norwegians — has been Trump’s tribalist weapon of choice, his scalpel prodding the worst impulses of the American spirit.” [Emphasis mine.]

    So America is a White nation after all! Thanks for the clarification, NYT.

    Italian Americans generally don’t feel it’s ethnically traitorous to support a different ethnic policy tailored to the 21st century than the one tailored to the 19th Century that helped their great-grandparents. This is partly due to lesser ethnocentrism among Italians and also to less intellectualism.

    It’s probably also due to the fact that in the 19th century, America had plenty of room and jobs, but now it’s full.

    I suspect that due to differential fertility and immigration from Israel, American Jews over time will drift toward the Italian-American attitude.

    So Jews are gonna be the new Italians?

  57. Yeah, can someone give me a logical reason for wanting Haitians over Norwegians? And preferably one not based on “hate-YT” logic…

    Best I can do:

    Hatians have never encouraged massive immigration into Hati.

    Slightly OT:
    1) The Trump letter to the House Demcorats shows that Trump has finally gotten organized and is going on the defensive.
    2) In a possibly unrelated event Trump activated the Marine Corps Reserve within the past week. USMC is an assault force (often misused, but still an assault force) that specializes in quick reaction and loyalty to the President. Prior to the World Wars, the USMC was pretty much at the disposal of the President, while any but the most local use of the US Army was at the discretion of the House of Representatives (HoR). The tradition has faded but it’s still there. USMC would be the ideal counter to most kinds attempted physical coup. (https://www.infowars.com/exclusive-trump-activates-u-s-marine-reserves-for-emergency-within-the-united-states-to-stop-illegal-coup/). The media didn’t pick up the story at the time — it seemed implausible that the act was anything more than a readiness exercise.
    You may remember that I’ve been writing that this had to happen, that Trump found himself as badly trapped as Caesar was back before he crossed the Rubicon. Trump is in a position to arrest quite a few of his opponents for either treason or clear felonies. Being Postmodernists, they’ll take this as a raw assertion of power and try their own raw assertion of power (“They bring a knife, we bring a gun” to quote — whom? Quite a few people.) Beware splatter, mind the volcano.

    Slightly OT:
    During the early days of WW II US Navy command in the Pacific had the acronym CINCUS (pronounce it to get the effect) and it became the object of enough jokes to be changed[1]. Now, try pronouncing POTUS.

    Counterinsurgency

    1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Fleet

  58. Pericles says:
    @Hypnotoad666

    So they have to sex them up with an extra-helping of Trump hate. Plus a double-plus Trump-hating review in the NYT flogging their book for how wonderfully hateful of Trump it is.

    The drugs don’t work anymore …

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
  59. Realist says:

    “Wait a minute — why do we want people from Haiti here?” Why not more people from Norway?

    Norwegians eat lutefisk.

  60. Mr. Anon says:

    ………..has been Trump’s tribalist weapon of choice, his scalpel prodding the worst impulses of the American spirit.

    Tell us, Joe Klein and Julie Hirshfeld Davis…………..tell us about……………tribalism.

  61. @Steve Sailer

    When I lived in Texas about ten years ago, I had a white guy and his son do my yard work once a week. Took ’em about 45 minutes and I paid him $30 a week. He did a great job and didn’t even melt in the dog days of summer.

  62. @syonredux

    He’s lucky he didn’t decide to go all Cleavon Little with that cowboy getup

  63. @Daniel Williams

    And overshadowed in that line about “shattering horror” is the nauseating “exquisitely reported.” Oh please. Sad to see journalism become America’s slimiest shithole.

    • Replies: @anon
  64. @Buzz Mohawk

    Always hire white. Ideally, hire a guy through Church or something. Like Chik-Fil-A does.

    Literslly call him. If his name is Spanish, hang up. If he has an accent, hang up. If he shows up and it’s one white guy with a bunch of aliens, don’t hire him again.

    For my long drives, I’ve created a map of the few white-owned and operated gas stations. I always buy gas there.

    It’s really not hard to starve the beast, the D-right is just lazy and disorganized.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  65. “Kantian universalism” is a misnomer. The categorical imperative is about universalizability.

    Kant would approve of closed borders because the rule is universalizable.

  66. @Wilkey

    What the American people need, or at the very least all conservatives and independents, is a complete change in how immigration policy is viewed.

    It is not an equal negotiation, and ‘fairness’ to the immigrant should not ever be considered at all.

    American behavior towards the potential immigrant:
    Courtesy? Yes.
    Respect? Yes.
    Transparency? Yes.

    For Americans:
    Policies designed solely for the benefit of current citizens.
    Policies solely designed to facilitate assimilation. That means not too many immigrants from any one country. It’s not our responsibility to manipulate immigration policy because the Chinese and Indians have large populations. The fact that is considered at all as a fairness issue is completely asinine.
    That means not too many immigrants from any one country in any one industry. Immigrants need lots of American co-workers to assimilate properly.

    Many people of all types have been critical of Trump focusing on immigration and crime.
    He should focus a lot on assimilation too, in a positive way. A side benefit of this is the left cannot, would not, and could not, ignore this…as it is an attack on identity politics. Democratic candidates would be forced to denounce the concept of assimilation itself as white supremacist, alienating even more moderates.

  67. @Faraday's Bobcat

    Notice where the quotation marks are. Klein wasn’t attributing the “Norway” question to Trump.

    • Agree: kaganovitch
  68. “But Kantian universalism across time is obviously nuts.”

    This is so obvious that it shouldn’t require any explanation. And yet people like Klein remain stuck in late 19th-early 20th century America when the economy was labor intensive rather than capital intensive as it is at the present time. How many leaf-blowers does this country really need?

  69. @Twodees Partain

    If memory serves, Klein was chief among those who were instrumental in elevating Bill and Hill to media stardom (and eventually into the White House), starting with the New Hampshire primary back in ’92.

  70. Ian M. says:

    When I first saw the title of this blog post, I was thinking Joe Klein was Joel Stein, and thought: “Oh, this will be funny.” Imagine my disappointment when I then read the post.

    Though I guess you could still say Klein’s article was humorous, but in a rather different way.

  71. Ian M. says:
    @Joseph A.

    It’s always been interesting to me that the Irish have been so much more influential politically than the Germans in this country, despite there being more of the latter and in spite of (or maybe because of?) the latter being higher achieving, more industrious, and more intelligent.

    Is this just because the Irish settled in more urban areas and the Germans tended to be more rural folk? Or is it something more innate to the two cultures?

    My impression is that those of German ancestry are ‘underrepresented’ in American politics.

  72. Ian M. says:
    @Brabantian

    Catholics were the original wedge minority in this country, used as a tool of liberals to subvert the dominant majority culture.

    As an added bonus, it subverted the Catholicism of the Catholic immigrants as well.

  73. Ian M. says:

    In contrast, Italian Americans generally don’t feel it’s ethnically traitorous to support a different immigration policy tailored to the 21st century than the one tailored to the 19th Century that helped their great-grandparents. This is partly due to lesser ethnocentrism among Italians and also to less intellectualism.

    I suspect that due to differential fertility and immigration from Israel, American Jews over time will drift toward the Italian-American attitude.

    Italians also belong to the same civilization. Jews, on the other hand, so long as there are vestigial remains of Christianity, will probably always feel at least partially alienated from our culture.

    It’s interesting though, that Italians nevertheless still seem to display more ethnocentrism than most other western European immigrant groups.

  74. jb says:

    Assuming that you must forever keep policy X because your great-grandparents benefited from policy X, as so many like Klein argue we must, is a really bad idea.

    Whenever you argue that we must do something now because that’s what we’ve always done, what you are really arguing is that we are slaves to the past. Tradition is fine and dandy, but when your traditions start to hurt you it’s time to discard those traditions and find better ones. The same can be said about values. You can argue whether or not openness to immigration is some kind of traditional American value, but really that’s kind of irrelevant. The fact is that we don’t exist to serve our values, our values exist to serve us, and when they stop doing so it is time to change them.

    (I think the expression “slaves to the past” could be especially useful in this context. In particular, the use of the word “slaves” in an argument against immigration seems likely to drive certain people into self-defeating paroxysms of fury, a thing that should be encouraged whenever possible).

  75. anon[339] • Disclaimer says:
    @Known Fact

    Sad to see journalism become America’s slimiest shithole.

    Where have you been for the last 30 years?

  76. anon[411] • Disclaimer says:

    The writers mentioned in this comment and replies – Krugman, and Ignatiev, both contemplate and advocate for Whites, elements of what in 1947 the UN declared to be “genocide”.

    Two elements of genocide:

    Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
    Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

    Link: https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml

  77. @Prester John

    Klein likely saw Bill Clinton as a moderate liberal who could win, which in 1992 was a big consideration for the Democrats.

    Also, Klein himself was somewhat critical of the Democratic party in the late 80’s-early 90’s for being too far to the left.

    Now, of course, Klein has gone full bore left of the left.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
  78. Anonymous[190] • Disclaimer says:
    @LoutishAngloQuebecker

    Gas stations make little profit on gas, rather all the stuff you buy while gassing up. If I have to buy gas at a store not known to me to not be immigrant owned, I buy gas and nothing else.

    In markets where they operate I just go to Quik Trip.

  79. @Prester John

    Your memory serves you well. His subsequent novel was an attempt to cement the view of the Clintons as a normal political couple, more cunning than most, but not demonic. He’s an asshole, in other words.

  80. @Joseph A.

    The first generation of nordniks were Scandinavian. Subsequent generations are known as Scandihoovians. (/Nomenclature police)

  81. @Wilkey

    Basically the Left runs two parallel histories of the United States: one racist, vile, bigoted (slavery, the Chinese Exclusion Act, etc) and one utopian (“The Founding Fathers always meant this country to be for everyone!”). Which one they happen to deploy at any given time depends upon the circumstances, and on whom they are trying to con.

    Well said!

  82. @Pericles

    The drugs don’t work anymore …

    Case in point, the heavily promoted, NYT chicks’ book about Kavanaugh sold less than 4000 copies.

  83. JoKo says:
    @syonredux

    Syon should get his own column.

  84. Art Deco says:
    @Prester John

    Clinton lost the New Hampshire primary.

  85. Art Deco says:
    @David In TN

    Rather like Charles Peters, who is still alive and still somewhat lucid at age 92. Ca. 1984 he was a somewhat twee critic of prevailing currents within the Democratic Party and founded a chronically broke magazine to promote his ideas. By 2004, he was defending in print the likes of Mary Mapes, Dan Rather’s fraudster producer.

  86. @Wilkey

    Basically the Left runs two parallel histories of the United States: one racist, vile, bigoted (slavery, the Chinese Exclusion Act, etc) and one utopian (“The Founding Fathers always meant this country to be for everyone!”). Which one they happen to deploy at any given time depends upon the circumstances, and on whom they are trying to con.

    Well said Wilkey. (You’ve crafted a fine tradition of clear, well written comments here.)

    I’d tack on that this is utterly common across pretty much all leftist thought these days. And they no longer accept logic or even facts so it’s become quite impossible to actually “win” an argument with them.

    These are not people who argue in good faith.

    I think one driver of this–beyond the multiculti and feminine dismissal of logic and reason–is simply that modern multicultural leftist has a fundamentally incoherent program:

    immigrationism vs. environmentalism (inc. sprawl, use of public transit, etc.)
    immigrationism vs. “living wage”
    immigrationism vs. “affordable housing”
    immigrationism vs. “sustainability”
    immigrationism vs. fighting income inequality
    immigrationism vs. the welfare state
    immigrationism + multiculturalism vs. feminism
    immigrationism + multiculturalism vs. homomania
    blackism vs. feminism
    blackism vs. #metooism
    soft on crimeism vs. women
    soft on crimeism vs. urbanism

    Basically all the immigration and multicultural stuff is in direct conflict with all the values of Scandinavian style social-democratic eco-friendly welfare statism.

  87. Dr. Doom says:

    Jews always seem shocked when people disagree with them. Its Hitler analogies and charges of Anti Semitism whenever it happens.

  88. @syonredux

    Interesting. Refreshingly on the spot and clear-minded.

  89. MEH 0910 says:
    @MEH 0910

  90. MEH 0910 says:

    Chapter Ten: The Sailer Strategy

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