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Joan Didion, RIP
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Journalist Joan Didion has died at 87.

I wrote in 2009:

I’m reading Joan Didion’s 1968 collection of articles, Slouching towards Bethlehem, one of the influential minor masterpieces of early New Journalism, along with Truman Capote’s In Cold Blood, Norman Mailer’s Armies of the Night, Hunter S. Thompson’s Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, and the works of Tom Wolfe.

Didion’s characteristic tone is that of an un-self-medicating Hunter S. Thompson. On a hot night in Death Valley, she writes:

There is some sinister hysteria in the air out here tonight, some hint of the monstrous perversion to which any human idea can come.

That kind of thing is a lot funnier coming from Thompson than Didion. But I shouldn’t make fun of her since Slouching Towards Bethlehem is, as she would say in her Hemingwayesque prose style, a good book. There is good writing in it, and good reporting. (For example, her depressing 1967 title story about Haight-Ashbury hippies was written three months before the Summer of Love).

In retrospect, I’d say I turned out more impressed with Slouching Towards Bethlehem than I sound here. The combination of Didion’s Old Money Republican Upper Crust hauteur and her subject matter of hippies allowed her to come up with some important insights.

For example, most discussions of San Francisco’s Summer of Love start with various intellectuals like Aldous Huxley, Timothy Leary, and Ken Kesey trying out LSD.

But Didion’s is more snobbishly down to earth: What makes Haight-Ashbury a very big deal is … girls, lots and lots of young girls on the loose and ready to be exploited. Who are these girls? Didion’s answer was that the hippie chicks pouring off the Greyhound buses in San Francisco in 1967 tended to be working class runaways from broken homes getting away from mom and mom’s handsy boyfriend, without recognizing that worse is in the waiting for them in San Francisco.

Here are links to her early articles for National Review.

Later in life she adopted a daughter who had some problems, which caused her to move from the right to the left.

And for all the New York Times subscribers who are both intense Joan Didion readers and who are also illiterate in English:

 
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  1. “most discussions of San Francisco’s Summer of Love start with various intellectuals like Aldous Huxley, Timothy Leary, and Ken Kesey trying out LSD.”

    Aldous Huxley couldn’t have tried LSD in 1967, unless it was from the netherworld.

    Aldous Huxley, along with C.S. Lewis, and John F. Kennedy, all died on November 22, 1963, nearly four years prior to the Summer of Love.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi


    “most discussions of San Francisco’s Summer of Love start with various intellectuals like Aldous Huxley, Timothy Leary, and Ken Kesey trying out LSD.”

    Aldous Huxley couldn’t have tried LSD in 1967, unless it was from the netherworld.
     
    "most discussions start with ..." Don't be a dewsh. Understand the difference between a discussion and a summer.

    Aldous Huxley took LSD the day he died. Don't be a dewsh.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    , @prosa123
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Aldous Huxley, along with C.S. Lewis, and John F. Kennedy, all died on November 22, 1963, nearly four years prior to the Summer of Love.

    Bad timing on Huxley's and Lewis' part, as their deaths got almost zero attention.

    Something else happened in the morning of that fateful day, which even without the assassination would have gotten little or no attention at the time but which has affected the lives of countless people. Walt Disney rode in a helicopter over some Orlando ranch land and decided it would be the perfect spot for his new theme park.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    , @The Plutonium Kid
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Huxley's book, The Doors of Perception, detailed his various experiences with hallucinogens, which he claimed could help provide profound spiritual experiences and insights. (The Doors took their name from the title of his book.) While I respect his earlier career, which gave us such writings as Brave New World, Point Counter Point, Time Must Have a Stop, and Eyeless in Gaza, the works from his period of fascination with psychedelics deserves little respect, and his influences on the hippie generation was tragic and destructive. I speak as yet another desperate working class white kid who sought escape in the hip counterculture of the Sixties.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    , @SunBakedSuburb
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    "Aldous Huxley couldn't have tried LSD in 1967, unless it was from the netherworld."

    Sydney Gottlieb was dosing the punch bowls at CIA Christmas parties in 1954. The CIA's Office of Security was alarmed enough to send a memo to all departments to be wary of the punch. At the same time chemists at Eli Lilly cracked the Sandoz Lysergic Acid code and began producing "tonnage quantities" of LSD for Gottlieb and his MK-ULTRA colleagues to dispense to critical centers of cultural influence: universities, Hollywood, ect. Huxley had been in Hollywood since the mid-1930s, trying his hand at screenplays and continuing his exploration into the borderland between mysticism and science whilst attempting to push authoritarian Fabian Scientism in the United States. (judging by current developments it appears that Fabianism made inroads into the American managerial class).

    Huxley was no stranger to hallucinogens before LSD showed up in Hollywood and other elite circles around the country starting in the mid to late 1950s. Sydney Gottlieb was the Johnny Appleseed of LSD. In a sense, the CIA had a major role in the cultural revolution of the 1960s.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    , @Alden
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    I, husband and our 6 siblings were right in the middle of it all. We should write a history of it. From the perspectives of the natives. Husband brothers and brothers in law all had friends who grew their hair long enough to pass as hippies and went to Haight-Ashbury to take advantage of the hippy girls. Fact check Ms Didion Most were not working class runaways. Most were prosperous middle class jews. Using sex drugs and rock and roll to seduce the youth of America to the revolution which succeeded as intended.

    The whole Haight-Ashbury thing was a giant gentrification keep the blacks out one of the most beautiful pre 1906? earthquake grand and glorious Victorian housing stocks in the country. When I write grand and glorious I don’t just mean the mansions. I mean even the modest 2 bedroom flats better designed better proportions and much easier to keep tidy and to decorate than anything built after 1945. . Closing down the by then black horror show Polytechnic High School was also designed to spread the Fillmore ghetto thugs all over town and keep them from turning Haight-Ashbury into as horrible a ghetto as the other black neighborhoods in the city.

    It was a politician chamber of commerce great powerful families and real estate interests that created the entire Haight-Ashbury hippy thing.

    And it worked. Saved Haight-Ashbury. lower Pacific Heights, inner Richmond , Masonic and part of Fillmore from the Black Plague

    Now it looks as though the Black Plague is taking back the parts of the city the hippies the gays and gentrification saved from the plague 50 years ago. Too bad so sad.

    And the so called conservative Chinese do absolute nothing about it but bloc vote for London Breed , Jewish gays and those insane radical Asian and Hispanic women in the school board.

  2. “Who are these girls? Didion’s answer was that the hippie chicks pouring off the Greyhound buses in San Francisco in 1967 tended to be working class runaways from broken homes getting away from mom and her boyfriend, without recognizing that worse is in the waiting for them in San Francisco.”

    “Friday morning at 9:00 she is far away./Waiting to keep the appointment she made/Meeting a man from the motor trade/She is having fun/Fun is the one thing that money can’t buy…”—from the Beatles’ ‘She’s Leaving Home’, ironicallly released at the start of the Summer of Love.

    • Replies: @AceDeuce
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    As they say, when the students are ready, the teacher appears.

    March, 1967 saw a thirtysomething ex-con named Charlie Manson get released from Terminal Island. He violated parole by moving north to Berkeley, where a sympathetic parole officer overlooked it and allowed him to settle in San Francisco just in time for the Summer of Love.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Feryl

    , @Mike Tre
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    "1967 tended to be working class runaways from broken homes "


    1967 would have seen quite a few 16-19 year olds, just about the window in which dad had time to get mom pregnant right before heading off to get killed in the Korean Conflict.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    , @Alden
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Didion had no idea who the hippie girls were. Complete ignorance like almost everyone who write about it. From far away.

    I read 2 chapters of a Didion book. Borrring can’t remember a thing about it.

  3. Interpreted a bit more charitably, what iSteve means is that Huxley tried LSD and subsequently influenced the Summer of Love.

    And indeed, that is true: he tried LSD on Christmas Eve in 1955 (how timely for today!), wrote about it, and thus influenced other, still living people.

    “After his first experience in 1955, Huxley became a great proponent of the usage of LSD. His most famous work on its benefits is The Doors Of Perception, which allowed many people more mainstream than he to accept its ideas. After all, if a smart guy like Aldous Huxley could use LSD, why not other people? This became the heyday of LSD in psychology, before reactionary backlash shut it down. Men like Cary Grant swore by it, saying that it helped them understand themselves. In a broader way, Huxley’s honest embrace of LSD changed the culture.”

    https://psychedelictimes.com/doors-of-perception-how-aldous-huxley-brought-lsd-therapy-to-his-readers/

    Your other fun fact reminds me of how JFK’s death kept Hesse and Huxley’s deaths from being newsworthy (in those pre-internet days of daily papers with only so much space). I recall that later, Janis Joplin was incensed (as it were) that Eisenhower had the impudence to die the same week she had been scheduled to appear on the cover of Time or Newsweek. Couldn’t he wait another week?

    • Replies: @Right_On
    @James J O'Meara

    The Doors Of Perception and its companion essay Heaven and Hell have some of Huxley's best prose; actually the writing is more like that of a prose-poem. Alan Watts's The Joyous Cosmology (ignore the ghastly title) has a similar vibe. Huxley thought that top-end psychedelics should be reserved for the cultural elite, so he would have been distressed by scruffy hippies' later enthusiasm for LSD.

    Joan Didion’s thoughts on a hot night in Death Valley in 1968: "There is some sinister hysteria in the air out here tonight, some hint of the monstrous perversion to which any human idea can come." A touch of the prophetic in those words, as Charles Manson and his "family" decamped to Death Valley the following year.

    , @J.Ross
    @James J O'Meara

    There is plenty of evidence that this maligned and misused category of drugs is helpful when used responsibly. Huxley and Grant received pure, properly dosed stuff, and tripped under professional supervision. But it's all about perpetually increasing productivity, even for suicide numbers, and instead of rational control of drug we gotta get those numbers up.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  4. Didion’s answer was that the hippie chicks pouring off the Greyhound buses in San Francisco in 1967 tended to be working class runaways from broken homes getting away from mom and her boyfriend, without recognizing that worse is in the waiting for them in San Francisco.

    I was literally explaining Didion’s thesis in that particular work, and recommending my interlocutor read it, not three minutes before coming across this post and learning for the first time of her death. (The topic was occasioned by a mention of the jailbait romance songs of Gary Puckett, in turn occasioned by the idiotic annual tempest-in-a-teapot over “Baby, It’s Cold Outside”). The world is full of strange coincidences.

  5. I wrote in 2009:

    https://isteve.blogspot.com/2009/07/joan-didions-1966-clue-on-obamas-iq.html

    Poking around on the ol’ iSteve blog spot …

    June 7, 2014
    Panhandling … now with Bitcoin!

    Due to popular demand, I’m going to try out accepting Bitcoins. I’m using Coinbase as a sort of Paypal for Bitcoins.

    I’m having Coinbase immediately turn all Bitcoins I receive into U.S. dollars and deposit them in my bank account.

    Ouch!

    https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2014/12/27/bitcoin-price-2014-a-year-in-review/

  6. I doubt that Joan actually turned left in her heart, read her John Wayne piece.

  7. >girls
    The noble and glorious but short-lived Right Wing Safety Squad (search “Ghost Ship”) found that one of the pillars of pseudo-alternative culture (the swamp feeding Antifa and activism hell) was girls as young as high school ages. Are you a loser? Can you play three chords on a guitar? Do you have friends who can sort of play music and who are available to hang out most weeknights? Then you can bang the girl who wouldn’t talk to you in high school (consensually — you won’t be able to get rid of her), even though you are now much older and pedophilia is a much-discussed societal concern. And then one night somebody’s talking about politics, and you don’t follow politics but whatever, and he says there’s this political thing downtown and everyone’s going, and there you are, throwing a brick at Andy Ngo.
    ——
    that coda
    SAVAGE
    it’s one thing to be the guy who still reads the NYT and another to know nobody’s coming after you
    ——

    • LOL: AndrewR
  8. the hippie chicks pouring off the Greyhound buses in San Francisco in 1967 tended to be working class runaways from broken homes getting away from mom and her boyfriend, without recognizing that worse is in the waiting for them in San Francisco.

    Yes! — this is not widely recognized but true.

    Just an anecdote (not data): in my years as a wanderer in the early 70s, most of the women on the more hippie side of freakdom were clearly exploited: indoctrinated into giving it to anyone who asked and popping out babies from who knows whom.

    • Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Cato

    Cato you are lucky to be an old fart.

    Try that now and most of what is available is chicks with dicks.

    Replies: @Cato

    , @Curle
    @Cato

    How does one describe ‘wandering’ years on an resume? I’ve always wondered given the emphasis on having an ‘directed’ course of life appear on one’s resume when I was preparing to hit the job market in the early ‘80s. Maybe that attitude was an reaction to the hippie years.

    Replies: @Cato

    , @Haxo Angmark
    @Cato

    in fact a high % of these White girls looking for strong daddy were picked-off (then rented out and eventually killed with an OD) by needle-wielding Blacks....among them my first ex-GF, San Francisco 1965-1967.

  9. Saddest part (for many PUA guys, as I was once one) is how, in retrospect, the 60’s could have only happened in a pre-1965 immigration world living off the prosperity and safety of America post-ww2 combined with first-blush feminism’s “sexual openness” push and a population of young, slim, attractive, scantily-dressed white women who were far more feminine and less slutty than later generations, regardless of how many partners a girl racked up during that time.

    In other words, the 60’s could only happen once.

    It is not a wonder so many old hippie dudes lionize the period and never stopped living in it. As Dennis Miller joked once, you could be a hairy awkward dude who hadn’t washed in a week and living on the streets and some hot 21 year old midwestern blond would come up to you and ask, “Nice sandals. Wanna fuck?”

    But if you missed it, you missed it forever.

    It’s really not a wonder Quentin Tarantino made such an idealized picture out of it, having missed the era himself by being a child.

    • Replies: @BenjaminL
    @R.G. Camara

    The current version of sexual liberation sounds a lot worse:

    https://delicioustacos.com/2013/12/10/these-kids-today/

    , @AndrewR
    @R.G. Camara

    I was not alive in the 1960s but I did live through the sexual openness of the 1990s and 2000s (which seems downright quaint in comparison to the proliferation of the seemingly paradoxical phenomena of both #MeToo and open hypergamy during the last ten years.

    I'm not religious but at this point it seems self-evident to me that pre-marital sex is bad and that the "sexual liberation" of the last 55 years has been an unmitigated disaster. I certainly didn't believe this in my teens or 20s but that was a while ago. The thought of someone 30 or 40 years older than me continuing to lionize the demonic debauchery of the 1960s even after half a century is disgusting to me.

    , @New Dealer
    @R.G. Camara

    I lived in the glorious turn from the 60s to the 70s. I was at an event in the late 90s where Kesey was ranting, "They're pretending that the 60s never happened!"

  10. But Didion’s is more snobbishly down to earth: What makes Haight-Ashbury a very big deal is … girls, lots and lots of young girls on the loose and ready to be exploited.

    And not just sexually, but financially. According to some accounts I’ve seen, a lot of what fueled the Summer of Love was welfare. Food Stamps, alimony, checks from Daddy. Age of Aquarius or not, grocers and drug dealers still have to get paid. It takes money to underwrite that kind of rejection of materialism.

    • Replies: @Carol
    @Mr. Anon

    Apparently the city had been giving cash welfare to the able bodied, male and female.

    But the benefits stopped abruptly ca 1968, "forcing" the denizens into drug dealing or prostitution.

    So of course it was never the same.

    Replies: @Feryl

    , @Curle
    @Mr. Anon

    I’ve heard an similar connection posited between the rise of Brit pop (British invasion) in the ‘60s and the UK dole plus art school phenomenon.

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Mr. Anon


    Food Stamps, alimony, checks from Daddy.
     
    I'd read that Jews of the day were tolerant and generous with their wayward children, while the goyish would more often disown theirs, at least temporarily, until they grew up. Perhaps keeping them in the fold was more important with one set, and disciplining them with the other.

    Replies: @HammerJack, @Curle, @Anon, @Paperback Writer

    , @Dave Pinsen
    @Mr. Anon

    IIRC, someone (a commenter here?) wrote that in San Francisco in the ‘60s, you could get a part time menial job like washing dishes and afford to live fairly comfortably for a young, single person (with roommates, presumably).

    Replies: @Luke Lea

    , @Almost Missouri
    @Mr. Anon


    It takes [a lot of] money to underwrite that kind of rejection of materialism.
     
    Great line!
  11. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    "Who are these girls? Didion’s answer was that the hippie chicks pouring off the Greyhound buses in San Francisco in 1967 tended to be working class runaways from broken homes getting away from mom and her boyfriend, without recognizing that worse is in the waiting for them in San Francisco."

    "Friday morning at 9:00 she is far away./Waiting to keep the appointment she made/Meeting a man from the motor trade/She is having fun/Fun is the one thing that money can't buy..."---from the Beatles' 'She's Leaving Home', ironicallly released at the start of the Summer of Love.

    Replies: @AceDeuce, @Mike Tre, @Alden

    As they say, when the students are ready, the teacher appears.

    March, 1967 saw a thirtysomething ex-con named Charlie Manson get released from Terminal Island. He violated parole by moving north to Berkeley, where a sympathetic parole officer overlooked it and allowed him to settle in San Francisco just in time for the Summer of Love.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @AceDeuce

    Dad interviewed Charles Manson for local news in the early '60's. Wonders never cease.

    , @Feryl
    @AceDeuce

    Charlie Manson is quite the "man of mystery". Rumor has it he was an informant, thus explaining his getting very lenient treatment from authorities prior to the murders being linked to him. If you do some digging the official narrative of the murders turns out a little.... Iffy. There's definitely some hinky stuff involving Manson, the California cultural elite, the criminal underworld, and the authorities.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

  12. I had a thought and rather than googling, I decided I would try to crowdsource an answer here. It’s sort of on topic to Haight-Ashbury, as it’s about the effect of drugs?

    From a selection standpoint, what did China’s opium abuse to the genetics of the population? For very poor people, I can see that dad becoming an opium addict could cause his kids to end up stunted, if not starved to death. Was opium abuse common enough for long enough, or is the propensity to become an opium addict so heritable that R = h²S ended up with large R?

    Are the Chinese less inclined to drug addiction than before their opium epidemic? Maybe specifically to opioids?

    [MORE]

    I could see fentanyl having a large (for real-time evolution) effect on the genetics of places where opioid abuse is really common. It would be larger with Narcan, which is maybe a clue that Narcan makes the problem worse in the long run.

    We know that alcohol addiction has been selected out of Mediterranean people, like Italians and Spaniards. Alcoholism is a big selective pressure on Indians and would be more so without government intervention. But, alcoholism is maybe only weakly heritable? Or it does not stop people from reproducing. Perhaps clans are something of a social adaptation? Parent drinks himself to death/gets drunk and falls into a ravine, and then his brother takes the kids in? Be stronger in more inbred populations, because the coefficient of relatedness is higher.
    Are today’s teenagers really into opioids? They were very popular in the mid-late nineties, though somewhat hard to come by.

    I feel really bad about thinking opioid abusers should maybe die so the next generation is better off. I think an environmental change of restricting imports and ending immigration so that there is more demand for labor from people who are now lumpenproles but whose parents (okay, grandparents by now) were productive proles. I feel especially bad because opioids don’t get me high, so I feel I’m unfairly judging people.

    But my main question is are the Chinese sino-supermen who are resistant to opioid use/addiction?

    • Replies: @S. Anonyia
    @Rob

    You’re not alone. Unlike most of the modern right, I don’t think there is a true opioid crisis. Weak-willed and bored people will be weak-willed regardless of what substance is widely available. I also don’t have sympathy for alcoholics. The typical person has to push through a lot of physical discomfort to get to the point where they become addicted to either opioids or alcohol.

    Replies: @nebulafox

  13. Anonymous[225] • Disclaimer says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    "most discussions of San Francisco’s Summer of Love start with various intellectuals like Aldous Huxley, Timothy Leary, and Ken Kesey trying out LSD."

    Aldous Huxley couldn't have tried LSD in 1967, unless it was from the netherworld.

    Aldous Huxley, along with C.S. Lewis, and John F. Kennedy, all died on November 22, 1963, nearly four years prior to the Summer of Love.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @prosa123, @The Plutonium Kid, @SunBakedSuburb, @Alden

    “most discussions of San Francisco’s Summer of Love start with various intellectuals like Aldous Huxley, Timothy Leary, and Ken Kesey trying out LSD.”

    Aldous Huxley couldn’t have tried LSD in 1967, unless it was from the netherworld.

    “most discussions start with …” Don’t be a dewsh. Understand the difference between a discussion and a summer.

    Aldous Huxley took LSD the day he died. Don’t be a dewsh.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Anonymous

    Then don't spell douche incorrectly, douchebag. Apparently someone is either high, stoned, blind, stupid, or didn't go to elementary school to comprehend the context of the sentence.

    It was STATED that most discussions OF THE SUMMER OF LOVE that Aldous Huxley, Timothy Leary, and Ken Kesey were trying out LSD. Translation: The Summer of Love is an explicit pop culture reference. It explicitly refers to the year 1967. It was STATED that all three men were doing LSD in 1967. Even a three yr old understands that sentence. Unfortunately that sentence is incorrect.

    Thing is, both Leary and Kesey were proponents of LSD during the Summer of Love (in 1967) and were publicly promoting it.

    All well and good, except that Huxley wasn't there to publicly promote LSD in 1967.

    For the three year olds, the pop culture reference, The Summer of Love = the year 1967, period. And Huxley wasn't around in 1967.

  14. About that NYTimes tweet, in that photo she looks “exotic” like some brand of non-WASPy off-white or mix. Did the Tweety girl at the Times say, “funny looking! Must be hispanix!” and write a tweet en español?

  15. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    "most discussions of San Francisco’s Summer of Love start with various intellectuals like Aldous Huxley, Timothy Leary, and Ken Kesey trying out LSD."

    Aldous Huxley couldn't have tried LSD in 1967, unless it was from the netherworld.

    Aldous Huxley, along with C.S. Lewis, and John F. Kennedy, all died on November 22, 1963, nearly four years prior to the Summer of Love.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @prosa123, @The Plutonium Kid, @SunBakedSuburb, @Alden

    Aldous Huxley, along with C.S. Lewis, and John F. Kennedy, all died on November 22, 1963, nearly four years prior to the Summer of Love.

    Bad timing on Huxley’s and Lewis’ part, as their deaths got almost zero attention.

    Something else happened in the morning of that fateful day, which even without the assassination would have gotten little or no attention at the time but which has affected the lives of countless people. Walt Disney rode in a helicopter over some Orlando ranch land and decided it would be the perfect spot for his new theme park.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @prosa123

    To quote the HOF NY Manager Casey Stengel: "Amazin'!"

  16. @Mr. Anon

    But Didion’s is more snobbishly down to earth: What makes Haight-Ashbury a very big deal is … girls, lots and lots of young girls on the loose and ready to be exploited.
     
    And not just sexually, but financially. According to some accounts I've seen, a lot of what fueled the Summer of Love was welfare. Food Stamps, alimony, checks from Daddy. Age of Aquarius or not, grocers and drug dealers still have to get paid. It takes money to underwrite that kind of rejection of materialism.

    Replies: @Carol, @Curle, @Reg Cæsar, @Dave Pinsen, @Almost Missouri

    Apparently the city had been giving cash welfare to the able bodied, male and female.

    But the benefits stopped abruptly ca 1968, “forcing” the denizens into drug dealing or prostitution.

    So of course it was never the same.

    • Replies: @Feryl
    @Carol

    I have a Gen Z co-worker who got into the whole "sex trafficking victim" narrative*. As we age we all figure out that there mostly aren't bad situations, but bad people. Only someone of dubious character convinces themselves that the hooker trade or drug trade is the only option they have left for survival. Good people don't commit legal (or moral) crimes, bad people do.

    *Note that I'm talking about older people here. Children of course always are legit victims within the context of criminal enterprises, these are the victims in whom we ought to place our greatest concern.

  17. @James J O'Meara
    Interpreted a bit more charitably, what iSteve means is that Huxley tried LSD and subsequently influenced the Summer of Love.

    And indeed, that is true: he tried LSD on Christmas Eve in 1955 (how timely for today!), wrote about it, and thus influenced other, still living people.

    "After his first experience in 1955, Huxley became a great proponent of the usage of LSD. His most famous work on its benefits is The Doors Of Perception, which allowed many people more mainstream than he to accept its ideas. After all, if a smart guy like Aldous Huxley could use LSD, why not other people? This became the heyday of LSD in psychology, before reactionary backlash shut it down. Men like Cary Grant swore by it, saying that it helped them understand themselves. In a broader way, Huxley’s honest embrace of LSD changed the culture."

    https://psychedelictimes.com/doors-of-perception-how-aldous-huxley-brought-lsd-therapy-to-his-readers/

    Your other fun fact reminds me of how JFK's death kept Hesse and Huxley's deaths from being newsworthy (in those pre-internet days of daily papers with only so much space). I recall that later, Janis Joplin was incensed (as it were) that Eisenhower had the impudence to die the same week she had been scheduled to appear on the cover of Time or Newsweek. Couldn't he wait another week?

    Replies: @Right_On, @J.Ross

    The Doors Of Perception and its companion essay Heaven and Hell have some of Huxley’s best prose; actually the writing is more like that of a prose-poem. Alan Watts’s The Joyous Cosmology (ignore the ghastly title) has a similar vibe. Huxley thought that top-end psychedelics should be reserved for the cultural elite, so he would have been distressed by scruffy hippies’ later enthusiasm for LSD.

    Joan Didion’s thoughts on a hot night in Death Valley in 1968: “There is some sinister hysteria in the air out here tonight, some hint of the monstrous perversion to which any human idea can come.” A touch of the prophetic in those words, as Charles Manson and his “family” decamped to Death Valley the following year.

  18. @Anonymous
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi


    “most discussions of San Francisco’s Summer of Love start with various intellectuals like Aldous Huxley, Timothy Leary, and Ken Kesey trying out LSD.”

    Aldous Huxley couldn’t have tried LSD in 1967, unless it was from the netherworld.
     
    "most discussions start with ..." Don't be a dewsh. Understand the difference between a discussion and a summer.

    Aldous Huxley took LSD the day he died. Don't be a dewsh.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Then don’t spell douche incorrectly, douchebag. Apparently someone is either high, stoned, blind, stupid, or didn’t go to elementary school to comprehend the context of the sentence.

    It was STATED that most discussions OF THE SUMMER OF LOVE that Aldous Huxley, Timothy Leary, and Ken Kesey were trying out LSD. Translation: The Summer of Love is an explicit pop culture reference. It explicitly refers to the year 1967. It was STATED that all three men were doing LSD in 1967. Even a three yr old understands that sentence. Unfortunately that sentence is incorrect.

    Thing is, both Leary and Kesey were proponents of LSD during the Summer of Love (in 1967) and were publicly promoting it.

    All well and good, except that Huxley wasn’t there to publicly promote LSD in 1967.

    For the three year olds, the pop culture reference, The Summer of Love = the year 1967, period. And Huxley wasn’t around in 1967.

    • Disagree: Colin Wright
  19. @prosa123
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Aldous Huxley, along with C.S. Lewis, and John F. Kennedy, all died on November 22, 1963, nearly four years prior to the Summer of Love.

    Bad timing on Huxley's and Lewis' part, as their deaths got almost zero attention.

    Something else happened in the morning of that fateful day, which even without the assassination would have gotten little or no attention at the time but which has affected the lives of countless people. Walt Disney rode in a helicopter over some Orlando ranch land and decided it would be the perfect spot for his new theme park.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    To quote the HOF NY Manager Casey Stengel: “Amazin’!”

  20. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    "Who are these girls? Didion’s answer was that the hippie chicks pouring off the Greyhound buses in San Francisco in 1967 tended to be working class runaways from broken homes getting away from mom and her boyfriend, without recognizing that worse is in the waiting for them in San Francisco."

    "Friday morning at 9:00 she is far away./Waiting to keep the appointment she made/Meeting a man from the motor trade/She is having fun/Fun is the one thing that money can't buy..."---from the Beatles' 'She's Leaving Home', ironicallly released at the start of the Summer of Love.

    Replies: @AceDeuce, @Mike Tre, @Alden

    “1967 tended to be working class runaways from broken homes ”

    1967 would have seen quite a few 16-19 year olds, just about the window in which dad had time to get mom pregnant right before heading off to get killed in the Korean Conflict.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Mike Tre

    There were close to 12 million people born during the Korean War. The number of men killed was around 33,000. I doubt Korean war orphans were a distinct population responsible for any cultural shifts.

    Replies: @Mike Tre

  21. @AceDeuce
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    As they say, when the students are ready, the teacher appears.

    March, 1967 saw a thirtysomething ex-con named Charlie Manson get released from Terminal Island. He violated parole by moving north to Berkeley, where a sympathetic parole officer overlooked it and allowed him to settle in San Francisco just in time for the Summer of Love.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Feryl

    Dad interviewed Charles Manson for local news in the early ’60’s. Wonders never cease.

  22. How does one get LSD today? Who does one approach and ask to sell some? Is it verboten to go to youngish club and announce, “Hey does anybody know where one can get some LSD..?” I’m old enough to handle this stuff. I resent that it is still so far underground.

    • Replies: @The Plutonium Kid
    @Daniel H

    One of the reasons it's so far underground is that it's so damned difficult to make. You need someone with a fairly sophisticated knowledge of chemistry and a pretty elaborate laboratory. It's not at all as simple as whipping up some bathtub gin or a batch of meth. I doubt there's any actual LSD for sale out there. If there is, you'll need some extremely hard to find connections.

    Replies: @74v56ruthiyj, @Ben tillman

    , @Red Pill Angel
    @Daniel H

    “How does one get LSD today? Who does one approach and ask to sell some? Is it verboten to go to youngish club and announce, “Hey does anybody know where one can get some LSD..?” I’m old enough to handle this stuff. I resent that it is still so far underground.”

    Don’t. Don’t do it. I thought, oh, what could happen to me now? It was awful. Awful. Absolutely awful. Not fun. And I once met Timothy Leary his own effing self before (when he was alive natch) and he gave me personal advice on how to take one’s first trip in middle age. “I was 42 when I took my first trip,” he said. Well, it was fine for about 5 hours, the curtains breathing, on the beach, then it went straight to hell in a hand basket. I can only assume that Timothy Leary had an ego made out of cast iron, and I don’t.

    Replies: @HammerJack, @Thea, @YetAnotherAnon, @G. Poulin

    , @Rob
    @Daniel H

    If you want to try a psychedelic, I suggest shrooms. They’re natural, and while natural does mean “safe,” it does mean no chemistry program dropout messed up the synthesis, forgot to precipitate the mercury catalyst out, or somesuch. The trip is also mercifully shorter, like 5-6 hours instead of 12-14? Like acid. I had a great trip one evening/night at a friend's cabin in the woods. By 6 am, I was trying to sleep in the car. I decided the cabin was the Texas Chain Saw Massacre house, but if I didn’t look at it, I would be ok, I woke up too soon, maybe 9 am with a terrible crick in my neck, but feeling pretty good, cuz I realized Leatherface wasn’t real.

    On the other hand, I had a great mushroom trip one time, but the next morning I cried, literally cried. Tears running down my face and snotting up a storm because Yoda wasn’t real.

    Handle hallucinogens with care. To this day, I cannot stand the smell or taste of some non-magical mushrooms.

    Replies: @Ray P, @prosa123, @Triteleia Laxa

    , @Harpagornis
    @Daniel H

    The dark web (use Brave browser) has made high quality LSD (as well as a myriad other substances) cheaper and easier to obtain than ever before. If you want to go down that particular rabbit hole, which I don't recommend, a quick Reddit search will turn up a number of discussion boards which cover accessing the market, as well as the drugs themselves, in depth.

    If you really must try, psilocybin (magic mushrooms) are probably a better option as the 'trip' is considerably shorter in length. Depending on where you are they are practically legal - in fact with a little research you can probably turn up a psychedelic therapist willing to guide you through your experience. If you decide to go the amateur route there are excellent written guides on what to do (and what not to) on-line. Again ask Reddit.

    Psychedelics may have some potential as a therapeutic tool but unfortunately the field is flooded with evangelists and various hucksters of all stripes. Their long term cultural influence is murky at best but I doubt it will be the utopia adherents envisage.

    Replies: @Ben tillman

    , @AndrewR
    @Daniel H

    I did my fair share back in the day. You're not missing much.

    Replies: @James J O'Meara

    , @Tony massey
    @Daniel H

    Don't you believe for a second good mushrooms won't send that ass to the er. I have even seen it trigger the vagal response. So that's what some er dr told me. He also said he didn't like to go with moar than 2.5 grams anything else was just toxic.
    I always thought 7grams was a good starting point but i won't kid ya that's strictly for the advanced.
    DMT is fairly easy to get. That's definitely a route you want Togo if you can. Sting wrote a really great auto and it starts out with him doing just that. Interesting stuff if you like that sorta thing.
    They are very very easy to grow and thats the only way to go.
    Last i used the spore link it was still good. Last ordered from the other place 3 springs ago next spring. Their stuff is good for a complete novice. Works every time. Just follow directions.
    https://www.micro-supply.com/mushrooms.htm
    http://www.midwestgrowkits.com/grow-kits.html
    I can't encourage you enough to get that shit ordered buddy and join the club. Life is way moar interesting.
    And I'm telling ya now find yourself a hippie chick and just pile it on. Since you're a noob i recommend dropping out entirely.
    Just you and your hippie chick.
    Don't let anyone tell ya shrooms won't put that ass in the er. Seen it. Seen it. Many times.
    Some folks need to keep to religion.

    Oh and just me personally i would go with the Hawaiian strain. That's just a guarantee. Others swear by the popular stuff in se asia. Never had them. Go ha'waiian. You won't regret it

    Replies: @Tony massey

  23. Joan Didion wrote a long, eloquent essay for The New York Review of Books in 1991, in which she came out as the first high-profile White proponent of the Central Park Five Hoax.

    She gave eloquence a band name.

    • Thanks: Alden
    • Replies: @Sean
    @Nicholas Stix

    She walked in Central Park every day and knew how far the location of the rape was from the beating of men the Five did participate in; hence she had an advantage in understanding the times the Five were supposed to have taken to get from one location to another during the crimes were implausible on the face of it.


    As it is odd that a woman who some considered the greatest English prose stylist lived long enough to become first mainstream person to say the Central Park Five were innocent (of raping the jogger, not the beatings) and many mainstream people are familiar with Central Park, it is likely she had some general factor of cognition in abundance.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @JimDandy

    , @Jim Don Bob
    @Nicholas Stix

    NR has some good JD links: https://www.nationalreview.com/2021/12/joan-didion-the-national-review-years/

    Her Central Park Five story is long and full of what life was like in the late 80s in NYC. She is skeptical of their guilt.

  24. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    "most discussions of San Francisco’s Summer of Love start with various intellectuals like Aldous Huxley, Timothy Leary, and Ken Kesey trying out LSD."

    Aldous Huxley couldn't have tried LSD in 1967, unless it was from the netherworld.

    Aldous Huxley, along with C.S. Lewis, and John F. Kennedy, all died on November 22, 1963, nearly four years prior to the Summer of Love.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @prosa123, @The Plutonium Kid, @SunBakedSuburb, @Alden

    Huxley’s book, The Doors of Perception, detailed his various experiences with hallucinogens, which he claimed could help provide profound spiritual experiences and insights. (The Doors took their name from the title of his book.) While I respect his earlier career, which gave us such writings as Brave New World, Point Counter Point, Time Must Have a Stop, and Eyeless in Gaza, the works from his period of fascination with psychedelics deserves little respect, and his influences on the hippie generation was tragic and destructive. I speak as yet another desperate working class white kid who sought escape in the hip counterculture of the Sixties.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @The Plutonium Kid

    Have you read Wierd Scenes in the Canyon?

    , @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @The Plutonium Kid

    "Huxley’s book, The Doors of Perception, detailed his various experiences with hallucinogens, which he claimed could help provide profound spiritual experiences and insights."

    No one is arguing that Huxley didn't experiment with LSD. The main point was, was he experimenting with LSD in 1967 (The Summer of Love)? Perhaps it is old school on my part, but it is very difficult to understand how one could be experimenting with LSD in 1967 when they died on November 22, 1963.

    Perhaps one would need to take copious amounts of LSD to comprehend that.

  25. @Daniel H
    How does one get LSD today? Who does one approach and ask to sell some? Is it verboten to go to youngish club and announce, "Hey does anybody know where one can get some LSD..?" I'm old enough to handle this stuff. I resent that it is still so far underground.

    Replies: @The Plutonium Kid, @Red Pill Angel, @Rob, @Harpagornis, @AndrewR, @Tony massey

    One of the reasons it’s so far underground is that it’s so damned difficult to make. You need someone with a fairly sophisticated knowledge of chemistry and a pretty elaborate laboratory. It’s not at all as simple as whipping up some bathtub gin or a batch of meth. I doubt there’s any actual LSD for sale out there. If there is, you’ll need some extremely hard to find connections.

    • Replies: @74v56ruthiyj
    @The Plutonium Kid

    I used to live near Caltech. My neighbor, a grad student, told me that the undergrads made their own LSD. "There's a lot of sickness on that campus.", he said.

    I once did some work on campus, welding steel grillwork for the second stories of the dorms. It seems that too many students were falling out the windows. Not a place I'd send my kid to.

    , @Ben tillman
    @The Plutonium Kid

    Here in Texas, I always laugh when I come across someone named Owsley.

  26. @Rob
    I had a thought and rather than googling, I decided I would try to crowdsource an answer here. It’s sort of on topic to Haight-Ashbury, as it’s about the effect of drugs?

    From a selection standpoint, what did China’s opium abuse to the genetics of the population? For very poor people, I can see that dad becoming an opium addict could cause his kids to end up stunted, if not starved to death. Was opium abuse common enough for long enough, or is the propensity to become an opium addict so heritable that R = h²S ended up with large R?

    Are the Chinese less inclined to drug addiction than before their opium epidemic? Maybe specifically to opioids?

    I could see fentanyl having a large (for real-time evolution) effect on the genetics of places where opioid abuse is really common. It would be larger with Narcan, which is maybe a clue that Narcan makes the problem worse in the long run.

    We know that alcohol addiction has been selected out of Mediterranean people, like Italians and Spaniards. Alcoholism is a big selective pressure on Indians and would be more so without government intervention. But, alcoholism is maybe only weakly heritable? Or it does not stop people from reproducing. Perhaps clans are something of a social adaptation? Parent drinks himself to death/gets drunk and falls into a ravine, and then his brother takes the kids in? Be stronger in more inbred populations, because the coefficient of relatedness is higher.
    Are today’s teenagers really into opioids? They were very popular in the mid-late nineties, though somewhat hard to come by.

    I feel really bad about thinking opioid abusers should maybe die so the next generation is better off. I think an environmental change of restricting imports and ending immigration so that there is more demand for labor from people who are now lumpenproles but whose parents (okay, grandparents by now) were productive proles. I feel especially bad because opioids don’t get me high, so I feel I’m unfairly judging people.

    But my main question is are the Chinese sino-supermen who are resistant to opioid use/addiction?

    Replies: @S. Anonyia

    You’re not alone. Unlike most of the modern right, I don’t think there is a true opioid crisis. Weak-willed and bored people will be weak-willed regardless of what substance is widely available. I also don’t have sympathy for alcoholics. The typical person has to push through a lot of physical discomfort to get to the point where they become addicted to either opioids or alcohol.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    @S. Anonyia

    There's a major functional difference in terms of community QOL outcomes between having drunks and smack addicts.

    The former is *vastly* preferable.

  27. @Nicholas Stix
    Joan Didion wrote a long, eloquent essay for The New York Review of Books in 1991, in which she came out as the first high-profile White proponent of the Central Park Five Hoax.

    She gave eloquence a band name.

    Replies: @Sean, @Jim Don Bob

    She walked in Central Park every day and knew how far the location of the rape was from the beating of men the Five did participate in; hence she had an advantage in understanding the times the Five were supposed to have taken to get from one location to another during the crimes were implausible on the face of it.

    As it is odd that a woman who some considered the greatest English prose stylist lived long enough to become first mainstream person to say the Central Park Five were innocent (of raping the jogger, not the beatings) and many mainstream people are familiar with Central Park, it is likely she had some general factor of cognition in abundance.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Sean

    But, she was not an expert in DNA, which, had just come into usage for criminal cases. DNA findings told quite a different story vs. the Central Park Five, as attorney columnist Ann Coulter has detailed in great lenght.

    Oh.

    Hi, Ann!

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen

    , @JimDandy
    @Sean

    She had no business stating that they were innocent. Did she say they were innocent? If she did, she disgraced herself.

  28. And for all the New York Times subscribers who are both intense Joan Didion readers and who are also illiterate in English:

    What, Xochitl Hinojosa is chopped liver?

  29. In Cold Blood was a top-notch work of… of what? Clean and engaging as the prose is, it wouldn’t have been as riveting if it was presented as a work of fiction, which, to some extent, it is. It isn’t legitimate journalism–new or old or anything in between. It was one of my favorite books. I don’t know what it is now.

  30. @The Plutonium Kid
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Huxley's book, The Doors of Perception, detailed his various experiences with hallucinogens, which he claimed could help provide profound spiritual experiences and insights. (The Doors took their name from the title of his book.) While I respect his earlier career, which gave us such writings as Brave New World, Point Counter Point, Time Must Have a Stop, and Eyeless in Gaza, the works from his period of fascination with psychedelics deserves little respect, and his influences on the hippie generation was tragic and destructive. I speak as yet another desperate working class white kid who sought escape in the hip counterculture of the Sixties.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Have you read Wierd Scenes in the Canyon?

  31. OT Chicago is celebrating Christmas with a mass shooting at a shopping mall in a white suburb, but the alleged shooter is black, so don’t worry, it won’t get big press.
    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/shots-ring-out-amid-last-minute-christmas-shopping-at-oakbrook-center-four-people-wounded-police-say/

  32. @James J O'Meara
    Interpreted a bit more charitably, what iSteve means is that Huxley tried LSD and subsequently influenced the Summer of Love.

    And indeed, that is true: he tried LSD on Christmas Eve in 1955 (how timely for today!), wrote about it, and thus influenced other, still living people.

    "After his first experience in 1955, Huxley became a great proponent of the usage of LSD. His most famous work on its benefits is The Doors Of Perception, which allowed many people more mainstream than he to accept its ideas. After all, if a smart guy like Aldous Huxley could use LSD, why not other people? This became the heyday of LSD in psychology, before reactionary backlash shut it down. Men like Cary Grant swore by it, saying that it helped them understand themselves. In a broader way, Huxley’s honest embrace of LSD changed the culture."

    https://psychedelictimes.com/doors-of-perception-how-aldous-huxley-brought-lsd-therapy-to-his-readers/

    Your other fun fact reminds me of how JFK's death kept Hesse and Huxley's deaths from being newsworthy (in those pre-internet days of daily papers with only so much space). I recall that later, Janis Joplin was incensed (as it were) that Eisenhower had the impudence to die the same week she had been scheduled to appear on the cover of Time or Newsweek. Couldn't he wait another week?

    Replies: @Right_On, @J.Ross

    There is plenty of evidence that this maligned and misused category of drugs is helpful when used responsibly. Huxley and Grant received pure, properly dosed stuff, and tripped under professional supervision. But it’s all about perpetually increasing productivity, even for suicide numbers, and instead of rational control of drug we gotta get those numbers up.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @J.Ross

    All of Cary Grant's shrinks told him the same thing: "You aren't poor miserable little Archibald Leach anymore. It's just your inferiority complex talking. You are now Cary Grant, the world's most popular movie star. And you deserve to be Cary Grant, you've made millions of people happier. If 100,000,000 have enjoyed an average of five of your two-hour movies, that's a billion hours of human happiness you've contributed. Who else can say that?"

    But he'd never believe them until one gave him LSD. And then he believed him. I think you can the effect of how much happier he was by comparing his triumphant North by Northwest to his earlier mopey, crotchety performance in To Catch a Thief.

    Replies: @Curle, @JimDandy, @D. K., @Reg Cæsar

  33. @Daniel H
    How does one get LSD today? Who does one approach and ask to sell some? Is it verboten to go to youngish club and announce, "Hey does anybody know where one can get some LSD..?" I'm old enough to handle this stuff. I resent that it is still so far underground.

    Replies: @The Plutonium Kid, @Red Pill Angel, @Rob, @Harpagornis, @AndrewR, @Tony massey

    “How does one get LSD today? Who does one approach and ask to sell some? Is it verboten to go to youngish club and announce, “Hey does anybody know where one can get some LSD..?” I’m old enough to handle this stuff. I resent that it is still so far underground.”

    Don’t. Don’t do it. I thought, oh, what could happen to me now? It was awful. Awful. Absolutely awful. Not fun. And I once met Timothy Leary his own effing self before (when he was alive natch) and he gave me personal advice on how to take one’s first trip in middle age. “I was 42 when I took my first trip,” he said. Well, it was fine for about 5 hours, the curtains breathing, on the beach, then it went straight to hell in a hand basket. I can only assume that Timothy Leary had an ego made out of cast iron, and I don’t.

    • Agree: houston 1992, sayless
    • LOL: JimDandy
    • Replies: @HammerJack
    @Red Pill Angel

    Fascinating. So many people (including various luminaries) have insisted that LSD opened their minds and changed their lives. But some people have bad trips.

    How to predict? I mean, if we lived in Oregon in the year 2024.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @Wokechoke

    , @Thea
    @Red Pill Angel

    As a as young adult I did it weekly for two years. While I do not recommend it I do consider it to have both helped and hindered me. You can’t have good without some bad in life.

    , @YetAnotherAnon
    @Red Pill Angel

    There were a fair few "acid casualties" - IMHO Peter Green and Syd Barratt to start with, plus a friend of mine who I was very fond of despite the fact that his brain had gone some years before I met him.

    Too much of that stuff can addle your brain.

    (In the UK the effects can be replicated somewhat less intensely by ingesting psilocybin mushrooms, which are quite common in early autumn)

    Replies: @hhsiii, @Old Prude

    , @G. Poulin
    @Red Pill Angel

    No one who comes from a family with a history of mental illness should go anywhere near the stuff. It can act as a trigger for latent psychosis. In some cases the psychosis will be permanent. Ask my old high school sweetheart, now a bag lady.

  34. @Sean
    @Nicholas Stix

    She walked in Central Park every day and knew how far the location of the rape was from the beating of men the Five did participate in; hence she had an advantage in understanding the times the Five were supposed to have taken to get from one location to another during the crimes were implausible on the face of it.


    As it is odd that a woman who some considered the greatest English prose stylist lived long enough to become first mainstream person to say the Central Park Five were innocent (of raping the jogger, not the beatings) and many mainstream people are familiar with Central Park, it is likely she had some general factor of cognition in abundance.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @JimDandy

    But, she was not an expert in DNA, which, had just come into usage for criminal cases. DNA findings told quite a different story vs. the Central Park Five, as attorney columnist Ann Coulter has detailed in great lenght.

    Oh.

    Hi, Ann!

    • Agree: Daniel H
    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Ann Coulter said pretty much the opposite about DNA and the Central Park Five:



    The media proclaim those five rapists innocent based on journalists’ own over-excited reports that the DNA found on the jogger matched that of Reyes — but none of the others!

    Yeah, we knew that. It was always known that semen on the jogger did not match any of the defendants. (“DNA Expert: No Semen Links to Defendants,” The Associated Press, July 14, 1990.)

    Hallmark should have a greeting card: “Guess whose semen wasn’t found anywhere on the rape victim?” (Open card) “I’m so proud of you, son!”

    Prosecutor Elizabeth Lederer expressly reminded the jurors of the missing rapist in her summation to the jury: “Others who were not caught raped her and got away.” Reyes’ confession means nothing more than: Now we know who “got away.”

    DNA wasn’t the evidence that convicted the “Central Park Five.” It’s hard to believe today, but in 1989 DNA was rarely used to convict anyone, so it wouldn’t have been carefully collected by police investigators. DNA identifications had only been invented a few years earlier and were not even permitted in New York courts until six months before the Central Park wilding.

    Instead, this case was solved with old-fashioned police work. After the first 911 calls came in, the police arrested some of the thugs in the park that very night. Then they arrested anyone named by the first detainees.

     

    And so on. Ann makes a pretty convincing case that the Central Park Five were 100% guilty: https://anncoulter.com/2014/04/23/what-you-wont-read-in-the-papers-about-the-central-park-five/

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @prosa123

  35. @The Plutonium Kid
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Huxley's book, The Doors of Perception, detailed his various experiences with hallucinogens, which he claimed could help provide profound spiritual experiences and insights. (The Doors took their name from the title of his book.) While I respect his earlier career, which gave us such writings as Brave New World, Point Counter Point, Time Must Have a Stop, and Eyeless in Gaza, the works from his period of fascination with psychedelics deserves little respect, and his influences on the hippie generation was tragic and destructive. I speak as yet another desperate working class white kid who sought escape in the hip counterculture of the Sixties.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    “Huxley’s book, The Doors of Perception, detailed his various experiences with hallucinogens, which he claimed could help provide profound spiritual experiences and insights.”

    No one is arguing that Huxley didn’t experiment with LSD. The main point was, was he experimenting with LSD in 1967 (The Summer of Love)? Perhaps it is old school on my part, but it is very difficult to understand how one could be experimenting with LSD in 1967 when they died on November 22, 1963.

    Perhaps one would need to take copious amounts of LSD to comprehend that.

  36. @R.G. Camara
    Saddest part (for many PUA guys, as I was once one) is how, in retrospect, the 60's could have only happened in a pre-1965 immigration world living off the prosperity and safety of America post-ww2 combined with first-blush feminism's "sexual openness" push and a population of young, slim, attractive, scantily-dressed white women who were far more feminine and less slutty than later generations, regardless of how many partners a girl racked up during that time.

    In other words, the 60's could only happen once.

    It is not a wonder so many old hippie dudes lionize the period and never stopped living in it. As Dennis Miller joked once, you could be a hairy awkward dude who hadn't washed in a week and living on the streets and some hot 21 year old midwestern blond would come up to you and ask, "Nice sandals. Wanna fuck?"

    But if you missed it, you missed it forever.

    It's really not a wonder Quentin Tarantino made such an idealized picture out of it, having missed the era himself by being a child.

    Replies: @BenjaminL, @AndrewR, @New Dealer

    The current version of sexual liberation sounds a lot worse:

    https://delicioustacos.com/2013/12/10/these-kids-today/

  37. Didion had a lot of female haters, from Pauline Kael and Barbara Grizzuti Harrison on down. They largely find her to be a snob:

    http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/103/didion-per-harrison.html

    https://www.theawl.com/2011/10/the-cordial-enmity-of-joan-didion-and-pauline-kael/

    https://popula.com/2018/10/15/the-center-held-just-fine/

    I’m ambivalent — snobbery is unappealing, but Didion’s California is a lot better than what succeeded it. I also think her observational skills and prose style were more impressive than her analytical mind.

    It’s also funny that the haters insist that Didion was “Upper Upper class,” despite not being all that wealthy and working for a living. Perhaps Old Palo Altan can enlighten us as to where the Didions stand in the California class hierarchy.

    All the most-liked comments on the NYT obituary insist that all her haters are male chauvinist pigs who don’t want to see a woman get her due credit.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    @BenjaminL

    'I’m ambivalent — snobbery is unappealing, but Didion’s California is a lot better than what succeeded it. I also think her observational skills and prose style were more impressive than her analytical mind...'

    I don't see her as a snob. She was from about one social tier above mine -- but that's just the way it was. She neither hid it nor saw in it some form of superiority. I have no problem with someone who honestly tells us what they see. She did that.

    , @Anon
    @BenjaminL

    I've never thought much of her prose, and I've always thought most of what she wrote was trivial. She seemed concerned only with things that would be of interest to someone living in a New York high-rise. She was parochial and had a narrow viewpoint in a very New York way.

    Replies: @Muggles, @Colin Wright

  38. Joan Didion wrote very, very well. She also described the California that my parents knew and that I was a child in brilliantly. See in particular Where I was From.

    It’s a land that’s largely gone — but as with other times and places that have had the fortune to be portrayed by great writers, it will always have some degree of immortality.

    • Thanks: sayless
    • Replies: @SunBakedSuburb
    @Colin Wright

    "Where I was From"

    Sacramento was a place of gentle rhythms when Joan Didion was a child. Nothing much to do for a kid but dream of other places. It's no wonder that the town that lives in the shadow of San Francisco would produce so many talented writers and actors.

  39. @BenjaminL
    Didion had a lot of female haters, from Pauline Kael and Barbara Grizzuti Harrison on down. They largely find her to be a snob:

    http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/103/didion-per-harrison.html

    https://www.theawl.com/2011/10/the-cordial-enmity-of-joan-didion-and-pauline-kael/

    https://popula.com/2018/10/15/the-center-held-just-fine/

    I'm ambivalent -- snobbery is unappealing, but Didion's California is a lot better than what succeeded it. I also think her observational skills and prose style were more impressive than her analytical mind.

    It's also funny that the haters insist that Didion was "Upper Upper class," despite not being all that wealthy and working for a living. Perhaps Old Palo Altan can enlighten us as to where the Didions stand in the California class hierarchy.

    All the most-liked comments on the NYT obituary insist that all her haters are male chauvinist pigs who don't want to see a woman get her due credit.

    Replies: @Colin Wright, @Anon

    ‘I’m ambivalent — snobbery is unappealing, but Didion’s California is a lot better than what succeeded it. I also think her observational skills and prose style were more impressive than her analytical mind…’

    I don’t see her as a snob. She was from about one social tier above mine — but that’s just the way it was. She neither hid it nor saw in it some form of superiority. I have no problem with someone who honestly tells us what they see. She did that.

    • Agree: BenjaminL
  40. @J.Ross
    @James J O'Meara

    There is plenty of evidence that this maligned and misused category of drugs is helpful when used responsibly. Huxley and Grant received pure, properly dosed stuff, and tripped under professional supervision. But it's all about perpetually increasing productivity, even for suicide numbers, and instead of rational control of drug we gotta get those numbers up.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    All of Cary Grant’s shrinks told him the same thing: “You aren’t poor miserable little Archibald Leach anymore. It’s just your inferiority complex talking. You are now Cary Grant, the world’s most popular movie star. And you deserve to be Cary Grant, you’ve made millions of people happier. If 100,000,000 have enjoyed an average of five of your two-hour movies, that’s a billion hours of human happiness you’ve contributed. Who else can say that?”

    But he’d never believe them until one gave him LSD. And then he believed him. I think you can the effect of how much happier he was by comparing his triumphant North by Northwest to his earlier mopey, crotchety performance in To Catch a Thief.

    • Thanks: Not Raul
    • Replies: @Curle
    @Steve Sailer

    Inferiority complexes make you miserable? What does that say about Dunning-Kruger, that only the smart are sufficiently self critical?

    , @JimDandy
    @Steve Sailer

    So, what I take from this is: acid can be really liberating, if you're Cary Grant.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    , @D. K.
    @Steve Sailer

    "But he’d never believe them until one gave him LSD. And then he believed him. I think you can the effect of how much happier he was by comparing his triumphant North by Northwest to his earlier mopey, crotchety performance in To Catch a Thief."

    Was that the effect of LSD, or was that the effect of Sophia Loren?

    ***

    Grant began experimenting with the drug LSD in the late 1950s,[305] before it became popular. His wife at the time, Betsy Drake, displayed a keen interest in psychotherapy, and through her Grant developed a considerable knowledge of the field of psychoanalysis. Radiologist Mortimer Hartman began treating him with LSD in the late 1950s, with Grant optimistic that the treatment could make him feel better about himself and rid of all of his inner turmoil stemming from his childhood and his failed relationships. He had an estimated 100 sessions over several years.[306] For a long time, Grant viewed the drug positively, and stated that it was the solution after many years of "searching for his peace of mind", and that for first time in his life he was "truly, deeply and honestly happy".[306] Dyan Cannon claimed during a court hearing that he was an "apostle of LSD", and that he was still taking the drug in 1967 as part of a remedy to save their relationship.[307] Grant later remarked that "taking LSD was an utterly foolish thing to do but I was a self-opinionated boor, hiding all kinds of layers and defences, hypocrisy and vanity. I had to get rid of them and wipe the slate clean."[308]

    ***

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cary_Grant#Personal_life

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Hibernian, @Emil Nikola Richard

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Steve Sailer

    Another top achiever of the day with a severe inferiority complex was Frank Loesser, even after giant successes with Hans Christian Andersen and Guys and Dolls behind him.

    Should he have taken acid, too? Would How to Succeed in Business look like Hair?


    You have the cold, clear
    Stare of a dropper of acid and meth...



    This irresistible new pharmaceutical I'm popping tonight
    I'm popping tonight
    simply to learn...


    I play it the chemical way
    Whatever a scientist cooks up, that's okay
    Oh, whether I get sedated or pulsate
    Whatever the chemist feeds me
    I'll hallucinate.

  41. @Mr. Anon

    But Didion’s is more snobbishly down to earth: What makes Haight-Ashbury a very big deal is … girls, lots and lots of young girls on the loose and ready to be exploited.
     
    And not just sexually, but financially. According to some accounts I've seen, a lot of what fueled the Summer of Love was welfare. Food Stamps, alimony, checks from Daddy. Age of Aquarius or not, grocers and drug dealers still have to get paid. It takes money to underwrite that kind of rejection of materialism.

    Replies: @Carol, @Curle, @Reg Cæsar, @Dave Pinsen, @Almost Missouri

    I’ve heard an similar connection posited between the rise of Brit pop (British invasion) in the ‘60s and the UK dole plus art school phenomenon.

  42. @Steve Sailer
    @J.Ross

    All of Cary Grant's shrinks told him the same thing: "You aren't poor miserable little Archibald Leach anymore. It's just your inferiority complex talking. You are now Cary Grant, the world's most popular movie star. And you deserve to be Cary Grant, you've made millions of people happier. If 100,000,000 have enjoyed an average of five of your two-hour movies, that's a billion hours of human happiness you've contributed. Who else can say that?"

    But he'd never believe them until one gave him LSD. And then he believed him. I think you can the effect of how much happier he was by comparing his triumphant North by Northwest to his earlier mopey, crotchety performance in To Catch a Thief.

    Replies: @Curle, @JimDandy, @D. K., @Reg Cæsar

    Inferiority complexes make you miserable? What does that say about Dunning-Kruger, that only the smart are sufficiently self critical?

  43. @Steve Sailer
    @J.Ross

    All of Cary Grant's shrinks told him the same thing: "You aren't poor miserable little Archibald Leach anymore. It's just your inferiority complex talking. You are now Cary Grant, the world's most popular movie star. And you deserve to be Cary Grant, you've made millions of people happier. If 100,000,000 have enjoyed an average of five of your two-hour movies, that's a billion hours of human happiness you've contributed. Who else can say that?"

    But he'd never believe them until one gave him LSD. And then he believed him. I think you can the effect of how much happier he was by comparing his triumphant North by Northwest to his earlier mopey, crotchety performance in To Catch a Thief.

    Replies: @Curle, @JimDandy, @D. K., @Reg Cæsar

    So, what I take from this is: acid can be really liberating, if you’re Cary Grant.

    • Agree: Red Pill Angel
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @JimDandy

    Q. Should I be like Cary Grant and take LSD?

    A. Why don't you first just try being like Cary Grant and see if that does it for you?

    Replies: @Mr. Anon

  44. @Sean
    @Nicholas Stix

    She walked in Central Park every day and knew how far the location of the rape was from the beating of men the Five did participate in; hence she had an advantage in understanding the times the Five were supposed to have taken to get from one location to another during the crimes were implausible on the face of it.


    As it is odd that a woman who some considered the greatest English prose stylist lived long enough to become first mainstream person to say the Central Park Five were innocent (of raping the jogger, not the beatings) and many mainstream people are familiar with Central Park, it is likely she had some general factor of cognition in abundance.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @JimDandy

    She had no business stating that they were innocent. Did she say they were innocent? If she did, she disgraced herself.

  45. @Mr. Anon

    But Didion’s is more snobbishly down to earth: What makes Haight-Ashbury a very big deal is … girls, lots and lots of young girls on the loose and ready to be exploited.
     
    And not just sexually, but financially. According to some accounts I've seen, a lot of what fueled the Summer of Love was welfare. Food Stamps, alimony, checks from Daddy. Age of Aquarius or not, grocers and drug dealers still have to get paid. It takes money to underwrite that kind of rejection of materialism.

    Replies: @Carol, @Curle, @Reg Cæsar, @Dave Pinsen, @Almost Missouri

    Food Stamps, alimony, checks from Daddy.

    I’d read that Jews of the day were tolerant and generous with their wayward children, while the goyish would more often disown theirs, at least temporarily, until they grew up. Perhaps keeping them in the fold was more important with one set, and disciplining them with the other.

    • Replies: @HammerJack
    @Reg Cæsar

    My perception is that moderate and liberal Jews are very good at letting their children find their own limits. It doesn't always work out (what does?) but when it does it results in kids who have a sense of confidence and mastery, as well as a bit of daring.

    , @Curle
    @Reg Cæsar

    By the time the ‘80s rolled around Hollywood was projecting a different Jewish patriarch if Mare Winningham’s dad was the model, Rob Lowe was the cause of concern and St Elmo’s Fire was the movie.

    Replies: @JimDandy, @AceDeuce

    , @Anon
    @Reg Cæsar

    The Jews had more money to put their kids back together with. The WASPs understood that it was a disgrace if you let your standards down, and you're drop down into a lower social class if you did. The WASPs understood that they kept their place by being people you'd look up to, not acting like clowns. The WASPs understood that it took more than money to create high social status, it took exemplary behavior as well.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    , @Paperback Writer
    @Reg Cæsar

    Not really - Jews and Protestants were the permissive ones.

    I was a bit young for the Haight scene during the actual heyday, but I hung around the refugees in the Bay Area in the 70s. My impression is that it was quite cheap. You'd squat, panhandle, dumpster dive, etc. The biggest expense was drugs. Also Bill Graham didn't allow anyone to get into the Fillmore without a ticket, for which you had to pay cold, hard, cash.

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob

  46. @Steve Sailer
    @J.Ross

    All of Cary Grant's shrinks told him the same thing: "You aren't poor miserable little Archibald Leach anymore. It's just your inferiority complex talking. You are now Cary Grant, the world's most popular movie star. And you deserve to be Cary Grant, you've made millions of people happier. If 100,000,000 have enjoyed an average of five of your two-hour movies, that's a billion hours of human happiness you've contributed. Who else can say that?"

    But he'd never believe them until one gave him LSD. And then he believed him. I think you can the effect of how much happier he was by comparing his triumphant North by Northwest to his earlier mopey, crotchety performance in To Catch a Thief.

    Replies: @Curle, @JimDandy, @D. K., @Reg Cæsar

    “But he’d never believe them until one gave him LSD. And then he believed him. I think you can the effect of how much happier he was by comparing his triumphant North by Northwest to his earlier mopey, crotchety performance in To Catch a Thief.”

    Was that the effect of LSD, or was that the effect of Sophia Loren?

    ***

    Grant began experimenting with the drug LSD in the late 1950s,[305] before it became popular. His wife at the time, Betsy Drake, displayed a keen interest in psychotherapy, and through her Grant developed a considerable knowledge of the field of psychoanalysis. Radiologist Mortimer Hartman began treating him with LSD in the late 1950s, with Grant optimistic that the treatment could make him feel better about himself and rid of all of his inner turmoil stemming from his childhood and his failed relationships. He had an estimated 100 sessions over several years.[306] For a long time, Grant viewed the drug positively, and stated that it was the solution after many years of “searching for his peace of mind”, and that for first time in his life he was “truly, deeply and honestly happy”.[306] Dyan Cannon claimed during a court hearing that he was an “apostle of LSD”, and that he was still taking the drug in 1967 as part of a remedy to save their relationship.[307] Grant later remarked that “taking LSD was an utterly foolish thing to do but I was a self-opinionated boor, hiding all kinds of layers and defences, hypocrisy and vanity. I had to get rid of them and wipe the slate clean.”[308]

    ***

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cary_Grant#Personal_life

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @D. K.

    Or maybperhaps, the real line is, govhelp vers your own work

    , @Hibernian
    @D. K.

    An experimental psychoactive drug prescribed by a radiologist - what could go wrong?

    , @Emil Nikola Richard
    @D. K.

    I wonder if the Cary Grant doctor had CIA connections. I would say it is at least a 50-50 bet the CIA drug projects had more than one file on the Cary Grant situation.

    Replies: @James J O'Meara

  47. @D. K.
    @Steve Sailer

    "But he’d never believe them until one gave him LSD. And then he believed him. I think you can the effect of how much happier he was by comparing his triumphant North by Northwest to his earlier mopey, crotchety performance in To Catch a Thief."

    Was that the effect of LSD, or was that the effect of Sophia Loren?

    ***

    Grant began experimenting with the drug LSD in the late 1950s,[305] before it became popular. His wife at the time, Betsy Drake, displayed a keen interest in psychotherapy, and through her Grant developed a considerable knowledge of the field of psychoanalysis. Radiologist Mortimer Hartman began treating him with LSD in the late 1950s, with Grant optimistic that the treatment could make him feel better about himself and rid of all of his inner turmoil stemming from his childhood and his failed relationships. He had an estimated 100 sessions over several years.[306] For a long time, Grant viewed the drug positively, and stated that it was the solution after many years of "searching for his peace of mind", and that for first time in his life he was "truly, deeply and honestly happy".[306] Dyan Cannon claimed during a court hearing that he was an "apostle of LSD", and that he was still taking the drug in 1967 as part of a remedy to save their relationship.[307] Grant later remarked that "taking LSD was an utterly foolish thing to do but I was a self-opinionated boor, hiding all kinds of layers and defences, hypocrisy and vanity. I had to get rid of them and wipe the slate clean."[308]

    ***

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cary_Grant#Personal_life

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Hibernian, @Emil Nikola Richard

    Or maybperhaps, the real line is, govhelp vers your own work

  48. @The Plutonium Kid
    @Daniel H

    One of the reasons it's so far underground is that it's so damned difficult to make. You need someone with a fairly sophisticated knowledge of chemistry and a pretty elaborate laboratory. It's not at all as simple as whipping up some bathtub gin or a batch of meth. I doubt there's any actual LSD for sale out there. If there is, you'll need some extremely hard to find connections.

    Replies: @74v56ruthiyj, @Ben tillman

    I used to live near Caltech. My neighbor, a grad student, told me that the undergrads made their own LSD. “There’s a lot of sickness on that campus.”, he said.

    I once did some work on campus, welding steel grillwork for the second stories of the dorms. It seems that too many students were falling out the windows. Not a place I’d send my kid to.

  49. @JimDandy
    @Steve Sailer

    So, what I take from this is: acid can be really liberating, if you're Cary Grant.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Q. Should I be like Cary Grant and take LSD?

    A. Why don’t you first just try being like Cary Grant and see if that does it for you?

    • Agree: JimDandy
    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    @Steve Sailer


    Q. Should I be like Cary Grant and take LSD?

    A. Why don’t you first just try being like Cary Grant and see if that does it for you?
     

    There is a popular meme along those lines:


    https://pics.me.me/something-went-1947-2019-terribly-wrong-something-went-terribly-wrong-63192798.png

  50. @Red Pill Angel
    @Daniel H

    “How does one get LSD today? Who does one approach and ask to sell some? Is it verboten to go to youngish club and announce, “Hey does anybody know where one can get some LSD..?” I’m old enough to handle this stuff. I resent that it is still so far underground.”

    Don’t. Don’t do it. I thought, oh, what could happen to me now? It was awful. Awful. Absolutely awful. Not fun. And I once met Timothy Leary his own effing self before (when he was alive natch) and he gave me personal advice on how to take one’s first trip in middle age. “I was 42 when I took my first trip,” he said. Well, it was fine for about 5 hours, the curtains breathing, on the beach, then it went straight to hell in a hand basket. I can only assume that Timothy Leary had an ego made out of cast iron, and I don’t.

    Replies: @HammerJack, @Thea, @YetAnotherAnon, @G. Poulin

    Fascinating. So many people (including various luminaries) have insisted that LSD opened their minds and changed their lives. But some people have bad trips.

    How to predict? I mean, if we lived in Oregon in the year 2024.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @HammerJack


    How to predict?
     
    It's been a while but I seem to recall that something like 5% of Timothy Leary's acid test subjects became insane.

    So not as dangerous as Russian Roulette, but more dangerous than cinematography for Alec Baldwin.

    Replies: @Red Pill Angel, @Curle, @James J O'Meara

    , @Wokechoke
    @HammerJack

    Best to take acid as a late teen.

  51. @Reg Cæsar
    @Mr. Anon


    Food Stamps, alimony, checks from Daddy.
     
    I'd read that Jews of the day were tolerant and generous with their wayward children, while the goyish would more often disown theirs, at least temporarily, until they grew up. Perhaps keeping them in the fold was more important with one set, and disciplining them with the other.

    Replies: @HammerJack, @Curle, @Anon, @Paperback Writer

    My perception is that moderate and liberal Jews are very good at letting their children find their own limits. It doesn’t always work out (what does?) but when it does it results in kids who have a sense of confidence and mastery, as well as a bit of daring.

  52. @Mr. Anon

    But Didion’s is more snobbishly down to earth: What makes Haight-Ashbury a very big deal is … girls, lots and lots of young girls on the loose and ready to be exploited.
     
    And not just sexually, but financially. According to some accounts I've seen, a lot of what fueled the Summer of Love was welfare. Food Stamps, alimony, checks from Daddy. Age of Aquarius or not, grocers and drug dealers still have to get paid. It takes money to underwrite that kind of rejection of materialism.

    Replies: @Carol, @Curle, @Reg Cæsar, @Dave Pinsen, @Almost Missouri

    IIRC, someone (a commenter here?) wrote that in San Francisco in the ‘60s, you could get a part time menial job like washing dishes and afford to live fairly comfortably for a young, single person (with roommates, presumably).

    • Replies: @Luke Lea
    @Dave Pinsen

    That might have been me. In 1967 I shared a five bedroom house on Rivoli Street with four other recent Reed graduates, my share of the rent being $30 a month, which I paid for with a 45 minute a day job cleaning up a doctor's office half an hour away by car. Total income: $100 a month. My car, by the way, happened to be an 1956 Ford convertible which I bought in Berkeley in 1964 for $50. You could live cheap back then, even in San Francisco.

    I wasn't a hippy, by the way. I was a hippy anthropologist

    Replies: @James J O'Meara, @Curle, @Obstinate Cymric

  53. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Sean

    But, she was not an expert in DNA, which, had just come into usage for criminal cases. DNA findings told quite a different story vs. the Central Park Five, as attorney columnist Ann Coulter has detailed in great lenght.

    Oh.

    Hi, Ann!

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen

    Ann Coulter said pretty much the opposite about DNA and the Central Park Five:

    The media proclaim those five rapists innocent based on journalists’ own over-excited reports that the DNA found on the jogger matched that of Reyes — but none of the others!

    Yeah, we knew that. It was always known that semen on the jogger did not match any of the defendants. (“DNA Expert: No Semen Links to Defendants,” The Associated Press, July 14, 1990.)

    Hallmark should have a greeting card: “Guess whose semen wasn’t found anywhere on the rape victim?” (Open card) “I’m so proud of you, son!”

    Prosecutor Elizabeth Lederer expressly reminded the jurors of the missing rapist in her summation to the jury: “Others who were not caught raped her and got away.” Reyes’ confession means nothing more than: Now we know who “got away.”

    DNA wasn’t the evidence that convicted the “Central Park Five.” It’s hard to believe today, but in 1989 DNA was rarely used to convict anyone, so it wouldn’t have been carefully collected by police investigators. DNA identifications had only been invented a few years earlier and were not even permitted in New York courts until six months before the Central Park wilding.

    Instead, this case was solved with old-fashioned police work. After the first 911 calls came in, the police arrested some of the thugs in the park that very night. Then they arrested anyone named by the first detainees.

    And so on. Ann makes a pretty convincing case that the Central Park Five were 100% guilty: https://anncoulter.com/2014/04/23/what-you-wont-read-in-the-papers-about-the-central-park-five/

    • Thanks: Hangnail Hans
    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Dave Pinsen

    And the five are still alive. Just like OJ is still alive, and now is a free man.

    This does tend to remind one of Andrew Jackson's mother's final advice to her son, while rotting in a British prison during the waning days of the US Revolution...

    "Never sue others for slander. Settle those cases yourself."

    Don Corleone would readily understand that sentiment (e.g. per the opening scene in Godfather Pt. I)

    Some would say to let the court system settle the case. To which the reply, "how much does one expect and desire justice to be served?"

    , @prosa123
    @Dave Pinsen

    A lesser-known story about the Central Park Jogger attack is that it featured some almost incomprehensibly bad police work. A few days before the fateful attack a different woman was jogging elsewhere in the park when a man grabbed her and dragged her into the bushes. Sounds of other people approaching scared him off before anything further could happen.

    The woman gave the police a detailed description of the attacker, which included one interesting feature: he had fresh-looking stitches in his chin. The cops checked with nearby hospitals and found that a man fitting the description had gotten stitches in his chin shortly before. His name was Mattias Reyes. Armed with this information, the police did ... nothing. They did not bring Reyes in for questioning and indeed did no follow-up work at all.

    Given the short time frame it's unlikely even the most diligent police work could have stopped the famous attack. The thing is, Reyes went on to commit a few more rapes and one murder before he finally got caught. And it should go without saying that no cops were ever disciplined over their inaction.

    Replies: @AceDeuce, @Almost Missouri

  54. @Mr. Anon

    But Didion’s is more snobbishly down to earth: What makes Haight-Ashbury a very big deal is … girls, lots and lots of young girls on the loose and ready to be exploited.
     
    And not just sexually, but financially. According to some accounts I've seen, a lot of what fueled the Summer of Love was welfare. Food Stamps, alimony, checks from Daddy. Age of Aquarius or not, grocers and drug dealers still have to get paid. It takes money to underwrite that kind of rejection of materialism.

    Replies: @Carol, @Curle, @Reg Cæsar, @Dave Pinsen, @Almost Missouri

    It takes [a lot of] money to underwrite that kind of rejection of materialism.

    Great line!

    • Agree: Cortes
  55. @HammerJack
    @Red Pill Angel

    Fascinating. So many people (including various luminaries) have insisted that LSD opened their minds and changed their lives. But some people have bad trips.

    How to predict? I mean, if we lived in Oregon in the year 2024.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @Wokechoke

    How to predict?

    It’s been a while but I seem to recall that something like 5% of Timothy Leary’s acid test subjects became insane.

    So not as dangerous as Russian Roulette, but more dangerous than cinematography for Alec Baldwin.

    • Replies: @Red Pill Angel
    @Almost Missouri

    Well, it completely changed my politics, and I ended up commenting here. I would advise, if anyone really, really insists, to take a micro dose in a luxury hotel suite or other very pleasant backdrop (set and setting) with someone you trust who will sit up with you. All night if necessary.

    Replies: @Right_On, @Ben tillman

    , @Curle
    @Almost Missouri

    What is the control set insanity outcome for an cohort of people willing to use their bodies as an lab for testing the effects of new drugs?

    Replies: @SunBakedSuburb, @Almost Missouri, @James J O'Meara

    , @James J O'Meara
    @Almost Missouri

    I propose we start measuring danger in units of "Baldwin."

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

  56. @D. K.
    @Steve Sailer

    "But he’d never believe them until one gave him LSD. And then he believed him. I think you can the effect of how much happier he was by comparing his triumphant North by Northwest to his earlier mopey, crotchety performance in To Catch a Thief."

    Was that the effect of LSD, or was that the effect of Sophia Loren?

    ***

    Grant began experimenting with the drug LSD in the late 1950s,[305] before it became popular. His wife at the time, Betsy Drake, displayed a keen interest in psychotherapy, and through her Grant developed a considerable knowledge of the field of psychoanalysis. Radiologist Mortimer Hartman began treating him with LSD in the late 1950s, with Grant optimistic that the treatment could make him feel better about himself and rid of all of his inner turmoil stemming from his childhood and his failed relationships. He had an estimated 100 sessions over several years.[306] For a long time, Grant viewed the drug positively, and stated that it was the solution after many years of "searching for his peace of mind", and that for first time in his life he was "truly, deeply and honestly happy".[306] Dyan Cannon claimed during a court hearing that he was an "apostle of LSD", and that he was still taking the drug in 1967 as part of a remedy to save their relationship.[307] Grant later remarked that "taking LSD was an utterly foolish thing to do but I was a self-opinionated boor, hiding all kinds of layers and defences, hypocrisy and vanity. I had to get rid of them and wipe the slate clean."[308]

    ***

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cary_Grant#Personal_life

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Hibernian, @Emil Nikola Richard

    An experimental psychoactive drug prescribed by a radiologist – what could go wrong?

  57. @HammerJack
    @Red Pill Angel

    Fascinating. So many people (including various luminaries) have insisted that LSD opened their minds and changed their lives. But some people have bad trips.

    How to predict? I mean, if we lived in Oregon in the year 2024.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @Wokechoke

    Best to take acid as a late teen.

  58. @R.G. Camara
    Saddest part (for many PUA guys, as I was once one) is how, in retrospect, the 60's could have only happened in a pre-1965 immigration world living off the prosperity and safety of America post-ww2 combined with first-blush feminism's "sexual openness" push and a population of young, slim, attractive, scantily-dressed white women who were far more feminine and less slutty than later generations, regardless of how many partners a girl racked up during that time.

    In other words, the 60's could only happen once.

    It is not a wonder so many old hippie dudes lionize the period and never stopped living in it. As Dennis Miller joked once, you could be a hairy awkward dude who hadn't washed in a week and living on the streets and some hot 21 year old midwestern blond would come up to you and ask, "Nice sandals. Wanna fuck?"

    But if you missed it, you missed it forever.

    It's really not a wonder Quentin Tarantino made such an idealized picture out of it, having missed the era himself by being a child.

    Replies: @BenjaminL, @AndrewR, @New Dealer

    I was not alive in the 1960s but I did live through the sexual openness of the 1990s and 2000s (which seems downright quaint in comparison to the proliferation of the seemingly paradoxical phenomena of both #MeToo and open hypergamy during the last ten years.

    I’m not religious but at this point it seems self-evident to me that pre-marital sex is bad and that the “sexual liberation” of the last 55 years has been an unmitigated disaster. I certainly didn’t believe this in my teens or 20s but that was a while ago. The thought of someone 30 or 40 years older than me continuing to lionize the demonic debauchery of the 1960s even after half a century is disgusting to me.

    • Agree: sayless
  59. @Daniel H
    How does one get LSD today? Who does one approach and ask to sell some? Is it verboten to go to youngish club and announce, "Hey does anybody know where one can get some LSD..?" I'm old enough to handle this stuff. I resent that it is still so far underground.

    Replies: @The Plutonium Kid, @Red Pill Angel, @Rob, @Harpagornis, @AndrewR, @Tony massey

    If you want to try a psychedelic, I suggest shrooms. They’re natural, and while natural does mean “safe,” it does mean no chemistry program dropout messed up the synthesis, forgot to precipitate the mercury catalyst out, or somesuch. The trip is also mercifully shorter, like 5-6 hours instead of 12-14? Like acid. I had a great trip one evening/night at a friend’s cabin in the woods. By 6 am, I was trying to sleep in the car. I decided the cabin was the Texas Chain Saw Massacre house, but if I didn’t look at it, I would be ok, I woke up too soon, maybe 9 am with a terrible crick in my neck, but feeling pretty good, cuz I realized Leatherface wasn’t real.

    On the other hand, I had a great mushroom trip one time, but the next morning I cried, literally cried. Tears running down my face and snotting up a storm because Yoda wasn’t real.

    Handle hallucinogens with care. To this day, I cannot stand the smell or taste of some non-magical mushrooms.

    • Replies: @Ray P
    @Rob

    Hollywood seems to be the most powerful hallucinogenic in common use. Talk about the feelies.

    , @prosa123
    @Rob

    I know someone who licked a hallucinogenic toad. She said it was okay but nothing special.

    Replies: @Rob

    , @Triteleia Laxa
    @Rob

    Hallucinogenic toads, LSD, Ayahuasca and Mushrooms are just like having a cup of coffee for me, and actually my friend too. It isn't that we don't see stuff on them. It is that it makes no difference.

    Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican, @Rob

  60. @Daniel H
    How does one get LSD today? Who does one approach and ask to sell some? Is it verboten to go to youngish club and announce, "Hey does anybody know where one can get some LSD..?" I'm old enough to handle this stuff. I resent that it is still so far underground.

    Replies: @The Plutonium Kid, @Red Pill Angel, @Rob, @Harpagornis, @AndrewR, @Tony massey

    The dark web (use Brave browser) has made high quality LSD (as well as a myriad other substances) cheaper and easier to obtain than ever before. If you want to go down that particular rabbit hole, which I don’t recommend, a quick Reddit search will turn up a number of discussion boards which cover accessing the market, as well as the drugs themselves, in depth.

    If you really must try, psilocybin (magic mushrooms) are probably a better option as the ‘trip’ is considerably shorter in length. Depending on where you are they are practically legal – in fact with a little research you can probably turn up a psychedelic therapist willing to guide you through your experience. If you decide to go the amateur route there are excellent written guides on what to do (and what not to) on-line. Again ask Reddit.

    Psychedelics may have some potential as a therapeutic tool but unfortunately the field is flooded with evangelists and various hucksters of all stripes. Their long term cultural influence is murky at best but I doubt it will be the utopia adherents envisage.

    • Replies: @Ben tillman
    @Harpagornis

    Cheaper than ever before? In the 1980’s 100 or 150 mikes was $2 or $2.50. Cost has never been an issue.

  61. @Daniel H
    How does one get LSD today? Who does one approach and ask to sell some? Is it verboten to go to youngish club and announce, "Hey does anybody know where one can get some LSD..?" I'm old enough to handle this stuff. I resent that it is still so far underground.

    Replies: @The Plutonium Kid, @Red Pill Angel, @Rob, @Harpagornis, @AndrewR, @Tony massey

    I did my fair share back in the day. You’re not missing much.

    • Replies: @James J O'Meara
    @AndrewR

    It's really quite remarkable how little influence such a supposedly divine drug had. Most of the "culture" it directly inspired seems at best dated: light shows, black light posters, rock concert poster art, etc. Our world should be more like Huxley's Island than the Brave New World we have now.

    "And that, I think, was the handle—that sense of inevitable victory over the forces of Old and Evil. Not in any mean or military sense; we didn’t need that. Our energy would simply prevail. There was no point in fighting—on our side or theirs. We had all the momentum; we were riding the crest of a high and beautiful wave. . . . So now, less than five years later, you can go up on a steep hill in Las Vegas and look West, and with the right kind of eyes you can almost see the high-water mark—that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.” -- HST, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.

  62. @Cato

    the hippie chicks pouring off the Greyhound buses in San Francisco in 1967 tended to be working class runaways from broken homes getting away from mom and her boyfriend, without recognizing that worse is in the waiting for them in San Francisco.
     
    Yes! -- this is not widely recognized but true.

    Just an anecdote (not data): in my years as a wanderer in the early 70s, most of the women on the more hippie side of freakdom were clearly exploited: indoctrinated into giving it to anyone who asked and popping out babies from who knows whom.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @Curle, @Haxo Angmark

    Cato you are lucky to be an old fart.

    Try that now and most of what is available is chicks with dicks.

    • Replies: @Cato
    @Emil Nikola Richard


    Cato you are lucky to be an old fart. Try that now and most of what is available is chicks with dicks.
     
    In those days, LSD, etc., in every gathering there would be a woman or even women that would appear to be a kind of Elvan princess. When I look at videos of psytrance concerts, it seems that the same kind of stereotyping persists. Now, jaded as I have become, I think it a tragedy that an Elvan princess should have submitted to such degradation.

    It might be of interest to know that the country, in the 1970s, where one was in the greatest danger of inadvertently ending up with a chick with a dick was El Salvador. I had two friends who picked up what they thought were extremely attractive women, and discovered, after some passionate moments, that information asymmetry prevailed.

    Replies: @Peter D. Bredon

  63. @Rob
    @Daniel H

    If you want to try a psychedelic, I suggest shrooms. They’re natural, and while natural does mean “safe,” it does mean no chemistry program dropout messed up the synthesis, forgot to precipitate the mercury catalyst out, or somesuch. The trip is also mercifully shorter, like 5-6 hours instead of 12-14? Like acid. I had a great trip one evening/night at a friend's cabin in the woods. By 6 am, I was trying to sleep in the car. I decided the cabin was the Texas Chain Saw Massacre house, but if I didn’t look at it, I would be ok, I woke up too soon, maybe 9 am with a terrible crick in my neck, but feeling pretty good, cuz I realized Leatherface wasn’t real.

    On the other hand, I had a great mushroom trip one time, but the next morning I cried, literally cried. Tears running down my face and snotting up a storm because Yoda wasn’t real.

    Handle hallucinogens with care. To this day, I cannot stand the smell or taste of some non-magical mushrooms.

    Replies: @Ray P, @prosa123, @Triteleia Laxa

    Hollywood seems to be the most powerful hallucinogenic in common use. Talk about the feelies.

    • Agree: Hangnail Hans
  64. @D. K.
    @Steve Sailer

    "But he’d never believe them until one gave him LSD. And then he believed him. I think you can the effect of how much happier he was by comparing his triumphant North by Northwest to his earlier mopey, crotchety performance in To Catch a Thief."

    Was that the effect of LSD, or was that the effect of Sophia Loren?

    ***

    Grant began experimenting with the drug LSD in the late 1950s,[305] before it became popular. His wife at the time, Betsy Drake, displayed a keen interest in psychotherapy, and through her Grant developed a considerable knowledge of the field of psychoanalysis. Radiologist Mortimer Hartman began treating him with LSD in the late 1950s, with Grant optimistic that the treatment could make him feel better about himself and rid of all of his inner turmoil stemming from his childhood and his failed relationships. He had an estimated 100 sessions over several years.[306] For a long time, Grant viewed the drug positively, and stated that it was the solution after many years of "searching for his peace of mind", and that for first time in his life he was "truly, deeply and honestly happy".[306] Dyan Cannon claimed during a court hearing that he was an "apostle of LSD", and that he was still taking the drug in 1967 as part of a remedy to save their relationship.[307] Grant later remarked that "taking LSD was an utterly foolish thing to do but I was a self-opinionated boor, hiding all kinds of layers and defences, hypocrisy and vanity. I had to get rid of them and wipe the slate clean."[308]

    ***

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cary_Grant#Personal_life

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Hibernian, @Emil Nikola Richard

    I wonder if the Cary Grant doctor had CIA connections. I would say it is at least a 50-50 bet the CIA drug projects had more than one file on the Cary Grant situation.

    • Agree: Ben tillman
    • Replies: @James J O'Meara
    @Emil Nikola Richard

    At minute 37:00 they brag about running 1000 important people through the LSD program including Cary Grant.

    https://www.winterwatch.net/2019/12/in-plain-view-jaw-dropping-video-of-lsd-promoters-holding-1979-meeting/

  65. @Almost Missouri
    @HammerJack


    How to predict?
     
    It's been a while but I seem to recall that something like 5% of Timothy Leary's acid test subjects became insane.

    So not as dangerous as Russian Roulette, but more dangerous than cinematography for Alec Baldwin.

    Replies: @Red Pill Angel, @Curle, @James J O'Meara

    Well, it completely changed my politics, and I ended up commenting here. I would advise, if anyone really, really insists, to take a micro dose in a luxury hotel suite or other very pleasant backdrop (set and setting) with someone you trust who will sit up with you. All night if necessary.

    • Agree: Ben tillman
    • Replies: @Right_On
    @Red Pill Angel

    All night if necessary.

    I'd advise a novice to take his first trial of LSD (150mcg is a safe dose) in the countryside or a park on a pleasant summer's day. He'll want to hug a tree.

    To those advocating magic mushrooms: mescaline is a better alternative psychedelic.

    Replies: @houston 1992

    , @Ben tillman
    @Red Pill Angel

    Yep. It can bring out race memory.

  66. My perception is that moderate and liberal Jews are very good at letting their children find their own limits. It doesn’t always work out (what does?) but when it does it results in kids who have a sense of confidence and mastery, as well as a bit of daring.

    The Amish have their variant, rumspringa.

  67. @Cato

    the hippie chicks pouring off the Greyhound buses in San Francisco in 1967 tended to be working class runaways from broken homes getting away from mom and her boyfriend, without recognizing that worse is in the waiting for them in San Francisco.
     
    Yes! -- this is not widely recognized but true.

    Just an anecdote (not data): in my years as a wanderer in the early 70s, most of the women on the more hippie side of freakdom were clearly exploited: indoctrinated into giving it to anyone who asked and popping out babies from who knows whom.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @Curle, @Haxo Angmark

    How does one describe ‘wandering’ years on an resume? I’ve always wondered given the emphasis on having an ‘directed’ course of life appear on one’s resume when I was preparing to hit the job market in the early ‘80s. Maybe that attitude was an reaction to the hippie years.

    • Replies: @Cato
    @Curle


    How does one describe ‘wandering’ years on an resume? I’ve always wondered given the emphasis on having an ‘directed’ course of life appear on one’s resume when I was preparing to hit the job market in the early ‘80s. Maybe that attitude was an reaction to the hippie years.
     
    It can't go on a resume ("I spent a year village by village passing across northern India"; or "I joined the Moonies, and then dumped that to become a Nietzsche-freak"). Despite their protestations/assertions no company would find any value in that. You do that shit only for yourself. Even more true today than then.

    You are right about the reaction to the hippie years: the Reagan youth generation was not about Reagan, it was about not doing the foolish stuff uncles and parents had done.

  68. @Reg Cæsar
    @Mr. Anon


    Food Stamps, alimony, checks from Daddy.
     
    I'd read that Jews of the day were tolerant and generous with their wayward children, while the goyish would more often disown theirs, at least temporarily, until they grew up. Perhaps keeping them in the fold was more important with one set, and disciplining them with the other.

    Replies: @HammerJack, @Curle, @Anon, @Paperback Writer

    By the time the ‘80s rolled around Hollywood was projecting a different Jewish patriarch if Mare Winningham’s dad was the model, Rob Lowe was the cause of concern and St Elmo’s Fire was the movie.

    • Replies: @JimDandy
    @Curle

    In the 90's, Alicia Silverstone's dad was the Jewish patriarch model, Peter Facinelli was the closeted cause of concern, and Paul Rudd was the thinly-veiled advertisement for Jewish in-breeding in Clueless.

    , @AceDeuce
    @Curle

    Fun fact: Mare Winningham played a wallflower virgin in St. Elmo's Fire, but at the time the movie was filmed she was, in real life, pregnant with her third child by her second husband.

    Acting!

    Fun fact #2: She was born and raised a Roman Catholic, but converted to Judaism in her 40s.

  69. Summer of Love.
    Fall of an Empire.
    Winter of Death.

    It follows.

  70. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    "most discussions of San Francisco’s Summer of Love start with various intellectuals like Aldous Huxley, Timothy Leary, and Ken Kesey trying out LSD."

    Aldous Huxley couldn't have tried LSD in 1967, unless it was from the netherworld.

    Aldous Huxley, along with C.S. Lewis, and John F. Kennedy, all died on November 22, 1963, nearly four years prior to the Summer of Love.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @prosa123, @The Plutonium Kid, @SunBakedSuburb, @Alden

    “Aldous Huxley couldn’t have tried LSD in 1967, unless it was from the netherworld.”

    Sydney Gottlieb was dosing the punch bowls at CIA Christmas parties in 1954. The CIA’s Office of Security was alarmed enough to send a memo to all departments to be wary of the punch. At the same time chemists at Eli Lilly cracked the Sandoz Lysergic Acid code and began producing “tonnage quantities” of LSD for Gottlieb and his MK-ULTRA colleagues to dispense to critical centers of cultural influence: universities, Hollywood, ect. Huxley had been in Hollywood since the mid-1930s, trying his hand at screenplays and continuing his exploration into the borderland between mysticism and science whilst attempting to push authoritarian Fabian Scientism in the United States. (judging by current developments it appears that Fabianism made inroads into the American managerial class).

    Huxley was no stranger to hallucinogens before LSD showed up in Hollywood and other elite circles around the country starting in the mid to late 1950s. Sydney Gottlieb was the Johnny Appleseed of LSD. In a sense, the CIA had a major role in the cultural revolution of the 1960s.

    • Agree: BB753
    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @SunBakedSuburb

    And yet, Huxley was not publicly promoting LSD in 1967, as he had been dead for nearly four years. Which was the point of The Summer of Love, when LSD more or less officially went mainstream, or trickled down to the masses. Which was the main point of the post. In 1967, Huxley wasn't around.

    Replies: @BB753

  71. @Red Pill Angel
    @Daniel H

    “How does one get LSD today? Who does one approach and ask to sell some? Is it verboten to go to youngish club and announce, “Hey does anybody know where one can get some LSD..?” I’m old enough to handle this stuff. I resent that it is still so far underground.”

    Don’t. Don’t do it. I thought, oh, what could happen to me now? It was awful. Awful. Absolutely awful. Not fun. And I once met Timothy Leary his own effing self before (when he was alive natch) and he gave me personal advice on how to take one’s first trip in middle age. “I was 42 when I took my first trip,” he said. Well, it was fine for about 5 hours, the curtains breathing, on the beach, then it went straight to hell in a hand basket. I can only assume that Timothy Leary had an ego made out of cast iron, and I don’t.

    Replies: @HammerJack, @Thea, @YetAnotherAnon, @G. Poulin

    As a as young adult I did it weekly for two years. While I do not recommend it I do consider it to have both helped and hindered me. You can’t have good without some bad in life.

  72. @Almost Missouri
    @HammerJack


    How to predict?
     
    It's been a while but I seem to recall that something like 5% of Timothy Leary's acid test subjects became insane.

    So not as dangerous as Russian Roulette, but more dangerous than cinematography for Alec Baldwin.

    Replies: @Red Pill Angel, @Curle, @James J O'Meara

    What is the control set insanity outcome for an cohort of people willing to use their bodies as an lab for testing the effects of new drugs?

    • Replies: @SunBakedSuburb
    @Curle

    Are you referring to the mRNA jab?

    , @Almost Missouri
    @Curle

    Yeah I wonder that too.

    Maybe they're more insane than average people. Or maybe those who judge themselves vulnerable to psychic shocks select themselves out, leaving a volunteer cohort who is more sane than average. Or maybe both are happening at the same time.

    I don't know, and I suspect no one else does either. The 1-in-20 figure stuck with me because it was the only time I've ever heard anyone attempt to quantify the hazards of hallucinogens. I think it was in the Tom Wolfe book.

    Obviously, a few people think hallucinogens have helped them. But we don't hear the contra- case because of survivorship bias: those who mistakenly believed they could fly or who became insane beyond coherence aren't making any public argument. I happen to have a few degrees of separation from several of these, though, so I know they exist(ed), and in my experience have handily outnumbered the "saved by hallucinogens" contingent.

    The scientific question, of course, is what is the cost, benefit, and ratio? As I say, I've seen very few attempts to quantify. But anecdotally, it doesn't look too good.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @S

    , @James J O'Meara
    @Curle

    I assume you're envisioning "dirty hippies" but the white button-down collar, Ivy League CIA guys in the 50s were dosing each other with LSD for shits and giggles. Also for assassinations (Forrestal). So it's more like father like son.

  73. @Colin Wright
    Joan Didion wrote very, very well. She also described the California that my parents knew and that I was a child in brilliantly. See in particular Where I was From.

    It's a land that's largely gone -- but as with other times and places that have had the fortune to be portrayed by great writers, it will always have some degree of immortality.

    Replies: @SunBakedSuburb

    “Where I was From”

    Sacramento was a place of gentle rhythms when Joan Didion was a child. Nothing much to do for a kid but dream of other places. It’s no wonder that the town that lives in the shadow of San Francisco would produce so many talented writers and actors.

  74. @Steve Sailer
    @J.Ross

    All of Cary Grant's shrinks told him the same thing: "You aren't poor miserable little Archibald Leach anymore. It's just your inferiority complex talking. You are now Cary Grant, the world's most popular movie star. And you deserve to be Cary Grant, you've made millions of people happier. If 100,000,000 have enjoyed an average of five of your two-hour movies, that's a billion hours of human happiness you've contributed. Who else can say that?"

    But he'd never believe them until one gave him LSD. And then he believed him. I think you can the effect of how much happier he was by comparing his triumphant North by Northwest to his earlier mopey, crotchety performance in To Catch a Thief.

    Replies: @Curle, @JimDandy, @D. K., @Reg Cæsar

    Another top achiever of the day with a severe inferiority complex was Frank Loesser, even after giant successes with Hans Christian Andersen and Guys and Dolls behind him.

    Should he have taken acid, too? Would How to Succeed in Business look like Hair?

    You have the cold, clear
    Stare of a dropper of acid and meth…

    This irresistible new pharmaceutical I’m popping tonight
    I’m popping tonight
    simply to learn…

    I play it the chemical way
    Whatever a scientist cooks up, that’s okay
    Oh, whether I get sedated or pulsate
    Whatever the chemist feeds me
    I’ll hallucinate.

    • Thanks: Nicholas Stix
  75. @Curle
    @Almost Missouri

    What is the control set insanity outcome for an cohort of people willing to use their bodies as an lab for testing the effects of new drugs?

    Replies: @SunBakedSuburb, @Almost Missouri, @James J O'Meara

    Are you referring to the mRNA jab?

    • Agree: Muggles
  76. @BenjaminL
    Didion had a lot of female haters, from Pauline Kael and Barbara Grizzuti Harrison on down. They largely find her to be a snob:

    http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/103/didion-per-harrison.html

    https://www.theawl.com/2011/10/the-cordial-enmity-of-joan-didion-and-pauline-kael/

    https://popula.com/2018/10/15/the-center-held-just-fine/

    I'm ambivalent -- snobbery is unappealing, but Didion's California is a lot better than what succeeded it. I also think her observational skills and prose style were more impressive than her analytical mind.

    It's also funny that the haters insist that Didion was "Upper Upper class," despite not being all that wealthy and working for a living. Perhaps Old Palo Altan can enlighten us as to where the Didions stand in the California class hierarchy.

    All the most-liked comments on the NYT obituary insist that all her haters are male chauvinist pigs who don't want to see a woman get her due credit.

    Replies: @Colin Wright, @Anon

    I’ve never thought much of her prose, and I’ve always thought most of what she wrote was trivial. She seemed concerned only with things that would be of interest to someone living in a New York high-rise. She was parochial and had a narrow viewpoint in a very New York way.

    • Agree: Alden
    • Replies: @Muggles
    @Anon


    She seemed concerned only with things that would be of interest to someone living in a New York high-rise. She was parochial and had a narrow viewpoint in a very New York way.
     
    Doesn't that describe virtually all NYC based writers, "journalists" and publications/websites.

    They live in Great Gotham. You don't.

    That's why every American by the time they're 20 knows most of the street names and locales in Manhattan, Queens, Brooklyn (but not the Bronx, yet) and no one knows the name of any other street in America except maybe, just maybe, the street they live on.

    A couple of streets in LA (since all the TV and most films are made there locally) and a couple in Chicago, DC, etc.

    New Yorkers count, you don't. If you need proof, look at any sports night wrap up and see how much attention is given to NYC teams versus anyplace else.

    Didion was just fitting in. They do sometimes accept provincials there, if they are clever enough.

    Replies: @prosa123

    , @Colin Wright
    @Anon

    '...She seemed concerned only with things that would be of interest to someone living in a New York high-rise...'

    I don't see Didion's work as having been particularly New York-centric. If any place gets disproportionate attention in her work, it's Southern California.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  77. @Dave Pinsen
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Ann Coulter said pretty much the opposite about DNA and the Central Park Five:



    The media proclaim those five rapists innocent based on journalists’ own over-excited reports that the DNA found on the jogger matched that of Reyes — but none of the others!

    Yeah, we knew that. It was always known that semen on the jogger did not match any of the defendants. (“DNA Expert: No Semen Links to Defendants,” The Associated Press, July 14, 1990.)

    Hallmark should have a greeting card: “Guess whose semen wasn’t found anywhere on the rape victim?” (Open card) “I’m so proud of you, son!”

    Prosecutor Elizabeth Lederer expressly reminded the jurors of the missing rapist in her summation to the jury: “Others who were not caught raped her and got away.” Reyes’ confession means nothing more than: Now we know who “got away.”

    DNA wasn’t the evidence that convicted the “Central Park Five.” It’s hard to believe today, but in 1989 DNA was rarely used to convict anyone, so it wouldn’t have been carefully collected by police investigators. DNA identifications had only been invented a few years earlier and were not even permitted in New York courts until six months before the Central Park wilding.

    Instead, this case was solved with old-fashioned police work. After the first 911 calls came in, the police arrested some of the thugs in the park that very night. Then they arrested anyone named by the first detainees.

     

    And so on. Ann makes a pretty convincing case that the Central Park Five were 100% guilty: https://anncoulter.com/2014/04/23/what-you-wont-read-in-the-papers-about-the-central-park-five/

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @prosa123

    And the five are still alive. Just like OJ is still alive, and now is a free man.

    This does tend to remind one of Andrew Jackson’s mother’s final advice to her son, while rotting in a British prison during the waning days of the US Revolution…

    “Never sue others for slander. Settle those cases yourself.”

    Don Corleone would readily understand that sentiment (e.g. per the opening scene in Godfather Pt. I)

    Some would say to let the court system settle the case. To which the reply, “how much does one expect and desire justice to be served?”

  78. @Rob
    @Daniel H

    If you want to try a psychedelic, I suggest shrooms. They’re natural, and while natural does mean “safe,” it does mean no chemistry program dropout messed up the synthesis, forgot to precipitate the mercury catalyst out, or somesuch. The trip is also mercifully shorter, like 5-6 hours instead of 12-14? Like acid. I had a great trip one evening/night at a friend's cabin in the woods. By 6 am, I was trying to sleep in the car. I decided the cabin was the Texas Chain Saw Massacre house, but if I didn’t look at it, I would be ok, I woke up too soon, maybe 9 am with a terrible crick in my neck, but feeling pretty good, cuz I realized Leatherface wasn’t real.

    On the other hand, I had a great mushroom trip one time, but the next morning I cried, literally cried. Tears running down my face and snotting up a storm because Yoda wasn’t real.

    Handle hallucinogens with care. To this day, I cannot stand the smell or taste of some non-magical mushrooms.

    Replies: @Ray P, @prosa123, @Triteleia Laxa

    I know someone who licked a hallucinogenic toad. She said it was okay but nothing special.

    • LOL: Red Pill Angel
    • Replies: @Rob
    @prosa123

    Never had a hallucinogenic toad myself, but if I had had one? I would’ve licked it. Not sure I'd tell anyone, though.

    Where did she find the toad?

    Replies: @Ray P, @Ed Case, @Peter D. Bredon

  79. @Dave Pinsen
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Ann Coulter said pretty much the opposite about DNA and the Central Park Five:



    The media proclaim those five rapists innocent based on journalists’ own over-excited reports that the DNA found on the jogger matched that of Reyes — but none of the others!

    Yeah, we knew that. It was always known that semen on the jogger did not match any of the defendants. (“DNA Expert: No Semen Links to Defendants,” The Associated Press, July 14, 1990.)

    Hallmark should have a greeting card: “Guess whose semen wasn’t found anywhere on the rape victim?” (Open card) “I’m so proud of you, son!”

    Prosecutor Elizabeth Lederer expressly reminded the jurors of the missing rapist in her summation to the jury: “Others who were not caught raped her and got away.” Reyes’ confession means nothing more than: Now we know who “got away.”

    DNA wasn’t the evidence that convicted the “Central Park Five.” It’s hard to believe today, but in 1989 DNA was rarely used to convict anyone, so it wouldn’t have been carefully collected by police investigators. DNA identifications had only been invented a few years earlier and were not even permitted in New York courts until six months before the Central Park wilding.

    Instead, this case was solved with old-fashioned police work. After the first 911 calls came in, the police arrested some of the thugs in the park that very night. Then they arrested anyone named by the first detainees.

     

    And so on. Ann makes a pretty convincing case that the Central Park Five were 100% guilty: https://anncoulter.com/2014/04/23/what-you-wont-read-in-the-papers-about-the-central-park-five/

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @prosa123

    A lesser-known story about the Central Park Jogger attack is that it featured some almost incomprehensibly bad police work. A few days before the fateful attack a different woman was jogging elsewhere in the park when a man grabbed her and dragged her into the bushes. Sounds of other people approaching scared him off before anything further could happen.

    The woman gave the police a detailed description of the attacker, which included one interesting feature: he had fresh-looking stitches in his chin. The cops checked with nearby hospitals and found that a man fitting the description had gotten stitches in his chin shortly before. His name was Mattias Reyes. Armed with this information, the police did … nothing. They did not bring Reyes in for questioning and indeed did no follow-up work at all.

    Given the short time frame it’s unlikely even the most diligent police work could have stopped the famous attack. The thing is, Reyes went on to commit a few more rapes and one murder before he finally got caught. And it should go without saying that no cops were ever disciplined over their inaction.

    • Replies: @AceDeuce
    @prosa123

    Partially true. It would have stopped Reyes.

    Trouble was, Reyes raped her only after the CP5 knigbos brought her down and did dey' thang wif' her first. Reyes's arrest wouldn't have stopped that.

    , @Almost Missouri
    @prosa123


    incomprehensibly bad police work.
    ...
    the police did … nothing. They did not bring Reyes in for questioning and indeed did no follow-up work at all.
     
    Isn't that fairly normal? Certainly in Dinkins-era NYC, if not in modern FBI garage door noose cases?

    To be fair to the NYPD of 33 years ago, they had a solid lead on a suspect, but the crime didn't quite happen, so even if they could tie him to it, there wasn't a lot "it" there for a prosecutor to work with. Better to deploy those police investigators on one of the many murders or rapes that had actually fully occurred. Without DNA databases and computer file searches, they may not have made the connection from the later actual rape back to suspect Reyes.
  80. Anon[388] • Disclaimer says:
    @Reg Cæsar
    @Mr. Anon


    Food Stamps, alimony, checks from Daddy.
     
    I'd read that Jews of the day were tolerant and generous with their wayward children, while the goyish would more often disown theirs, at least temporarily, until they grew up. Perhaps keeping them in the fold was more important with one set, and disciplining them with the other.

    Replies: @HammerJack, @Curle, @Anon, @Paperback Writer

    The Jews had more money to put their kids back together with. The WASPs understood that it was a disgrace if you let your standards down, and you’re drop down into a lower social class if you did. The WASPs understood that they kept their place by being people you’d look up to, not acting like clowns. The WASPs understood that it took more than money to create high social status, it took exemplary behavior as well.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Anon

    My Northeastern WASP stepbrother moved to San Francisco in the '80s, and before long was shacking up with a girl. A decade or so earlier and this would have been shocking, albeit more for social rather than moral reasons.

    But this was San Francisco the '80s. They were quick to remind everyone that he was shacking up with a girl.

  81. @Curle
    @Reg Cæsar

    By the time the ‘80s rolled around Hollywood was projecting a different Jewish patriarch if Mare Winningham’s dad was the model, Rob Lowe was the cause of concern and St Elmo’s Fire was the movie.

    Replies: @JimDandy, @AceDeuce

    In the 90’s, Alicia Silverstone’s dad was the Jewish patriarch model, Peter Facinelli was the closeted cause of concern, and Paul Rudd was the thinly-veiled advertisement for Jewish in-breeding in Clueless.

  82. @Steve Sailer
    @JimDandy

    Q. Should I be like Cary Grant and take LSD?

    A. Why don't you first just try being like Cary Grant and see if that does it for you?

    Replies: @Mr. Anon

    Q. Should I be like Cary Grant and take LSD?

    A. Why don’t you first just try being like Cary Grant and see if that does it for you?

    There is a popular meme along those lines:

    • LOL: Right_On
  83. @Curle
    @Almost Missouri

    What is the control set insanity outcome for an cohort of people willing to use their bodies as an lab for testing the effects of new drugs?

    Replies: @SunBakedSuburb, @Almost Missouri, @James J O'Meara

    Yeah I wonder that too.

    Maybe they’re more insane than average people. Or maybe those who judge themselves vulnerable to psychic shocks select themselves out, leaving a volunteer cohort who is more sane than average. Or maybe both are happening at the same time.

    I don’t know, and I suspect no one else does either. The 1-in-20 figure stuck with me because it was the only time I’ve ever heard anyone attempt to quantify the hazards of hallucinogens. I think it was in the Tom Wolfe book.

    Obviously, a few people think hallucinogens have helped them. But we don’t hear the contra- case because of survivorship bias: those who mistakenly believed they could fly or who became insane beyond coherence aren’t making any public argument. I happen to have a few degrees of separation from several of these, though, so I know they exist(ed), and in my experience have handily outnumbered the “saved by hallucinogens” contingent.

    The scientific question, of course, is what is the cost, benefit, and ratio? As I say, I’ve seen very few attempts to quantify. But anecdotally, it doesn’t look too good.

    • Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Almost Missouri


    Obviously, a few people think hallucinogens have helped them. But we don’t hear the contra- case because of survivorship bias: those who mistakenly believed they could fly or who became insane beyond coherence aren’t making any public argument.
     
    The bad trip reports are all there on erowid and really doing due diligence is recommended. What you are imagining as the hazard is not it. The thing is you might find yourself tripping and visualizing how stupid or fat or ugly or how much a loser you are. Since society has a pretty high bar for these only about 1% of the population is immune to this hazard.

    Terance McKenna gave up psychedelics because of bad trips. This bad trip.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

    , @S
    @Almost Missouri


    The 1-in-20 figure stuck with me because it was the only time I’ve ever heard anyone attempt to quantify the hazards of hallucinogens. I think it was in the Tom Wolfe book...But we don’t hear the contra- case because of survivorship bias: those who mistakenly believed they could fly or who became insane beyond coherence aren’t making any public argument.
     
    That's a good point, and, an interesting question.

    Some of the old (somewhat reality based) TV series from circa 1968 give anecdotal hints of the real time situation. Adam 12, for instance, had an episode from that time where a kid was found in a park in a state of drug induced psychosis, and of course, many of the episodes involved drug possession. Hawaii 5-0 had an episode which featured a young 17-18 year old woman, thinking she could fly, jump off a cliff to her death. McGarrett, in the same episode, visits a Hawaii hospital ward with drug addicted people who have basically lost their minds.

    The George Lucas film of circa 1969-70 THX-1138 has a mass crowd scene (literally it appears to be thousands) of young bald people. These were extras Lucas had hired on the cheap from Synanon, a drug addiction program. These extras were almost all young Euro (ie 'White') California men and women in their late teens or early 20's who were drug addicts. Unfortunately, rehab in the bulk of instances of drug addiction, is often largely ineffective.

    Some would, entirely understandably, question anecdotal evidence such as that. However, I think if anything, such examples tend to sugar coat how bad the situation actually was.

    Philip K Dick, the brilliant Californian author of Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep from which the movie Blade Runner was derived, would write the semi-autobiographical drug use centered novel A Scanner Darkly in 1977. At the end of the book he writes a dedication to the friends he has lost to drug addiction and names names and specifics. The list is only partial.

    I would suggest the 1960's drug culture subtly promoted at the time by the corporate mass media did comparable damage in it's way to the Baby Boomers as WWI did to it's generation of young people. To paraphrase the German author Erich Remarque:

    'Though the Baby Boomer generation in many instances may have escaped personal drug use, the drug culture destroyed them even so.'


    'This has been a novel about some people who were punished entirely too much for what they did. They wanted to have a good time, but they were like children playing in the street...I loved them all. Here is the list, to whom I dedicate my love:

    To Gaylene deceased
    To Ray deceased
    To Francy permanent psychosis
    To Kathy permanent brain damage
    To Jim deceased
    To Val massive permanent brain damage
    To Nancy permanent psychosis
    To Joanne permanent brain damage
    To Maren deceased
    To Nick deceased
    To Terry deceased
    To Dennis deceased
    To Phil permanent pancreatic damage
    To Sue permanent vascular damage
    To Jerri permanent psychosis and vascular damage

    . . . and so forth.
    In Memoriam.

    These were comrades whom I had; there are no better. They remain in my mind, and the enemy will never be forgiven. The "enemy" was their mistake in playing. Let them all play again, in some other way, and let them be happy.'
     

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Scanner_Darkly

    https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/1527439-a-scanner-darkly

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synanon

    Replies: @Peter D. Bredon, @Jim Don Bob

  84. @prosa123
    @Dave Pinsen

    A lesser-known story about the Central Park Jogger attack is that it featured some almost incomprehensibly bad police work. A few days before the fateful attack a different woman was jogging elsewhere in the park when a man grabbed her and dragged her into the bushes. Sounds of other people approaching scared him off before anything further could happen.

    The woman gave the police a detailed description of the attacker, which included one interesting feature: he had fresh-looking stitches in his chin. The cops checked with nearby hospitals and found that a man fitting the description had gotten stitches in his chin shortly before. His name was Mattias Reyes. Armed with this information, the police did ... nothing. They did not bring Reyes in for questioning and indeed did no follow-up work at all.

    Given the short time frame it's unlikely even the most diligent police work could have stopped the famous attack. The thing is, Reyes went on to commit a few more rapes and one murder before he finally got caught. And it should go without saying that no cops were ever disciplined over their inaction.

    Replies: @AceDeuce, @Almost Missouri

    Partially true. It would have stopped Reyes.

    Trouble was, Reyes raped her only after the CP5 knigbos brought her down and did dey’ thang wif’ her first. Reyes’s arrest wouldn’t have stopped that.

  85. @prosa123
    @Dave Pinsen

    A lesser-known story about the Central Park Jogger attack is that it featured some almost incomprehensibly bad police work. A few days before the fateful attack a different woman was jogging elsewhere in the park when a man grabbed her and dragged her into the bushes. Sounds of other people approaching scared him off before anything further could happen.

    The woman gave the police a detailed description of the attacker, which included one interesting feature: he had fresh-looking stitches in his chin. The cops checked with nearby hospitals and found that a man fitting the description had gotten stitches in his chin shortly before. His name was Mattias Reyes. Armed with this information, the police did ... nothing. They did not bring Reyes in for questioning and indeed did no follow-up work at all.

    Given the short time frame it's unlikely even the most diligent police work could have stopped the famous attack. The thing is, Reyes went on to commit a few more rapes and one murder before he finally got caught. And it should go without saying that no cops were ever disciplined over their inaction.

    Replies: @AceDeuce, @Almost Missouri

    incomprehensibly bad police work.

    the police did … nothing. They did not bring Reyes in for questioning and indeed did no follow-up work at all.

    Isn’t that fairly normal? Certainly in Dinkins-era NYC, if not in modern FBI garage door noose cases?

    To be fair to the NYPD of 33 years ago, they had a solid lead on a suspect, but the crime didn’t quite happen, so even if they could tie him to it, there wasn’t a lot “it” there for a prosecutor to work with. Better to deploy those police investigators on one of the many murders or rapes that had actually fully occurred. Without DNA databases and computer file searches, they may not have made the connection from the later actual rape back to suspect Reyes.

  86. @Reg Cæsar
    @Mr. Anon


    Food Stamps, alimony, checks from Daddy.
     
    I'd read that Jews of the day were tolerant and generous with their wayward children, while the goyish would more often disown theirs, at least temporarily, until they grew up. Perhaps keeping them in the fold was more important with one set, and disciplining them with the other.

    Replies: @HammerJack, @Curle, @Anon, @Paperback Writer

    Not really – Jews and Protestants were the permissive ones.

    I was a bit young for the Haight scene during the actual heyday, but I hung around the refugees in the Bay Area in the 70s. My impression is that it was quite cheap. You’d squat, panhandle, dumpster dive, etc. The biggest expense was drugs. Also Bill Graham didn’t allow anyone to get into the Fillmore without a ticket, for which you had to pay cold, hard, cash.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    @Paperback Writer

    I worked as an usher at the Fillmore East for a few years, and yes, Bill Graham didn't take s**t from anybody.

    One night I was taking tickets at the door, and this belligerent guy who had left tried to get back in. This was not allowed - you left, and you left for good. I thought I was about to get my scrawny ass kicked when a couple of the big guys who worked outside came to my rescue. They carried dog chains and were quite persuasive.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer, @Alden

  87. For example, most discussions of San Francisco’s Summer of Love start with various intellectuals like Aldous Huxley, Timothy Leary, and Ken Kesey trying out LSD.

    And where’d they get the LSD from? All except Huxley got it from A op called MK-ULTRA.

    This was fairly well-known until it got memory-holed. Recently people have picked up on it because of Wormwood and a book written by a journalist about the subject.

    LSD became all the rage among writers & artists during the 1950s, not just Grant. Clare Booth Luce took it.

  88. Later in life she adopted a daughter who had some problems, which caused her to move from the right to the left.

    ?

    Didion never had any obtrusive political or cultural alignments. Her daughter’s problems in living grew manifest in stages over the period running from 1989 to 2003, when her daughter was between the ages of 22 and 38.

  89. @Mike Tre
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    "1967 tended to be working class runaways from broken homes "


    1967 would have seen quite a few 16-19 year olds, just about the window in which dad had time to get mom pregnant right before heading off to get killed in the Korean Conflict.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    There were close to 12 million people born during the Korean War. The number of men killed was around 33,000. I doubt Korean war orphans were a distinct population responsible for any cultural shifts.

    • Replies: @Mike Tre
    @Art Deco

    I didn't say anything about orphans or cultural shifts. I was actually emphasizing Sailer's point. If you disagree with his original observation about runaway females escaping poor home lives than by all means. It's funny how you'll dig up some numbers to discredit my observation but then offer nothing to support your own opinion. The divorce rate actually declined during the Korean War, so where else were all these rural born children of single mothers coming from.

  90. @Red Pill Angel
    @Daniel H

    “How does one get LSD today? Who does one approach and ask to sell some? Is it verboten to go to youngish club and announce, “Hey does anybody know where one can get some LSD..?” I’m old enough to handle this stuff. I resent that it is still so far underground.”

    Don’t. Don’t do it. I thought, oh, what could happen to me now? It was awful. Awful. Absolutely awful. Not fun. And I once met Timothy Leary his own effing self before (when he was alive natch) and he gave me personal advice on how to take one’s first trip in middle age. “I was 42 when I took my first trip,” he said. Well, it was fine for about 5 hours, the curtains breathing, on the beach, then it went straight to hell in a hand basket. I can only assume that Timothy Leary had an ego made out of cast iron, and I don’t.

    Replies: @HammerJack, @Thea, @YetAnotherAnon, @G. Poulin

    There were a fair few “acid casualties” – IMHO Peter Green and Syd Barratt to start with, plus a friend of mine who I was very fond of despite the fact that his brain had gone some years before I met him.

    Too much of that stuff can addle your brain.

    (In the UK the effects can be replicated somewhat less intensely by ingesting psilocybin mushrooms, which are quite common in early autumn)

    • Replies: @hhsiii
    @YetAnotherAnon

    I did acid a couple of times. Mushrooms more often in college. Ecstasy was legal back then, and when we did mushrooms and ecstasy we called it the MX missile. But again this was maybe twice. Coke also, maybe 4-5 times. Weed was fairly prevalent and I did that weekly for a bit. But usually beer, and by the time I graduated bourbon sours or ginger ale. Wine was more after graduating. I had fun doing LSD but it strikes me that there’s a strong chance one bad trip can alter you forever so I never went back. Heroin I did once but snorted it and fell asleep. This is all about 35 years ago now.

    , @Old Prude
    @YetAnotherAnon

    A friend told me 'shrooms were fun for the first two hours, but getting thru the next five hours of tripping was a drag.

    I had a roommate come in one evening high on coke. It looked like he was having a great time.

  91. @Dave Pinsen
    @Mr. Anon

    IIRC, someone (a commenter here?) wrote that in San Francisco in the ‘60s, you could get a part time menial job like washing dishes and afford to live fairly comfortably for a young, single person (with roommates, presumably).

    Replies: @Luke Lea

    That might have been me. In 1967 I shared a five bedroom house on Rivoli Street with four other recent Reed graduates, my share of the rent being \$30 a month, which I paid for with a 45 minute a day job cleaning up a doctor’s office half an hour away by car. Total income: \$100 a month. My car, by the way, happened to be an 1956 Ford convertible which I bought in Berkeley in 1964 for \$50. You could live cheap back then, even in San Francisco.

    I wasn’t a hippy, by the way. I was a hippy anthropologist

    • Thanks: Dave Pinsen
    • Replies: @James J O'Meara
    @Luke Lea

    I have the sense that a lot of the postwar and otherwise Beats seem to have spent a lot of time going from one "menial" job to another, quitting when bored or having made enough to live on for a few months, filling in the rest of the time writing. Gary Snyder, for example, spent time as a fire watcher on some mountain, Kesey worked in a mental institution, Dean Moriarty delivering cars by driving them across country (with non-driver Kerouac riding shotgun), Alex Trocchi as a watchman on a NYC barge, etc.

    Obviously all this was grist for the writing mill, as you can see. Living on grants or a trust fund seems lame by comparison.

    The GI Bill was another source of income (Donleavy), as was enlisting in the merchant marine (Ginsburg, Kerouac).

    Burroughs was an outlier, with his family trust fund, but even he felt the need to spend time working: exterminator, sharecropper, etc.

    The steady outsourcing, automation and simple elimination of such jobs must have had bad consequences even for literature, to say nothing of the working class itself.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    , @Curle
    @Luke Lea

    Reed, huh?

    That place has occupied an exaggerated place in my imagination for years for no particular reason. I always imagine either some academic version of The Blithedale Romance (I’m not sure why) or some variation on an hippie or west German commune. I’d be curious to know what it’s really like?

    , @Obstinate Cymric
    @Luke Lea

    60s/70s in both UK and US, property was cheap pre-mass immigration, and certainly in the UK, the desirable properties were posh suburbs of cities, not places out in the country - the further out you went the cheaper it got. In places like Alston, Hebden Bridge and Stroud you could get a stone cottage for a couple of thousand, sometimes only hundreds. Cornwall, Devon, Wales were cheap.

    And it was easy to find work.

    So a lot of people could live cheaply and do creative stuff (or just get smashed).

  92. @prosa123
    @Rob

    I know someone who licked a hallucinogenic toad. She said it was okay but nothing special.

    Replies: @Rob

    Never had a hallucinogenic toad myself, but if I had had one? I would’ve licked it. Not sure I’d tell anyone, though.

    Where did she find the toad?

    • Replies: @Ray P
    @Rob

    What else can I answer,

    When the lights come on at four
    At the end of another year?
    Give me your arm, old toad;
    Help me down Cemetery Road.

    -- Philip Larkin, Toads Revisited

    , @Ed Case
    @Rob

    Everything you ever wanted to know about Hallucogenic Toads in 46 minutes:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SBLf1tsoaw
    Another triumph of Australia's Scientist Class!

    , @Peter D. Bredon
    @Rob

    https://looppacificassets.s3.amazonaws.com/styles/no_watermark/s3/thumbnails/image/08_wire20_ed.jpg?itok=AZv0Ivd2

  93. @Almost Missouri
    @Curle

    Yeah I wonder that too.

    Maybe they're more insane than average people. Or maybe those who judge themselves vulnerable to psychic shocks select themselves out, leaving a volunteer cohort who is more sane than average. Or maybe both are happening at the same time.

    I don't know, and I suspect no one else does either. The 1-in-20 figure stuck with me because it was the only time I've ever heard anyone attempt to quantify the hazards of hallucinogens. I think it was in the Tom Wolfe book.

    Obviously, a few people think hallucinogens have helped them. But we don't hear the contra- case because of survivorship bias: those who mistakenly believed they could fly or who became insane beyond coherence aren't making any public argument. I happen to have a few degrees of separation from several of these, though, so I know they exist(ed), and in my experience have handily outnumbered the "saved by hallucinogens" contingent.

    The scientific question, of course, is what is the cost, benefit, and ratio? As I say, I've seen very few attempts to quantify. But anecdotally, it doesn't look too good.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @S

    Obviously, a few people think hallucinogens have helped them. But we don’t hear the contra- case because of survivorship bias: those who mistakenly believed they could fly or who became insane beyond coherence aren’t making any public argument.

    The bad trip reports are all there on erowid and really doing due diligence is recommended. What you are imagining as the hazard is not it. The thing is you might find yourself tripping and visualizing how stupid or fat or ugly or how much a loser you are. Since society has a pretty high bar for these only about 1% of the population is immune to this hazard.

    Terance McKenna gave up psychedelics because of bad trips. This bad trip.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @Emil Nikola Richard


    The bad trip reports are all there on erowid and really doing due diligence is recommended. What you are imagining as the hazard is not it.
     
    Sorry, but the report of my friend's hippy uncle who walked off a roof while tripping is most definitely not among the curated but still semi-literate "experiences" that populate the "vaults" of Erowid. Nor is the report of another friend's permanently fried circuitry. Nor are half a dozen others cases I could describe.

    Are any of Erich Remarque's many drug casualty friends among the Erowid reports? Again, no.

    Survivorship bias rules here.

    Finally noticing that you're fat or stupid or ugly or whatever is fine—we all are that on a certain level. What I'm talking about is something different: being dead or permanently mentally crippled. Such cases are not in short supply, but they get brushed aside by the "oh just take a couple tabs in a good environment" crowd. And dead men tell no tales to the contrary.
  94. @Rob
    @prosa123

    Never had a hallucinogenic toad myself, but if I had had one? I would’ve licked it. Not sure I'd tell anyone, though.

    Where did she find the toad?

    Replies: @Ray P, @Ed Case, @Peter D. Bredon

    What else can I answer,

    When the lights come on at four
    At the end of another year?
    Give me your arm, old toad;
    Help me down Cemetery Road.

    — Philip Larkin, Toads Revisited

  95. What makes Haight-Ashbury a very big deal is … girls, lots and lots of young girls on the loose and ready to be exploited.

    The Summer of Love was actually the Summer of Statutory Rape

  96. @Art Deco
    @Mike Tre

    There were close to 12 million people born during the Korean War. The number of men killed was around 33,000. I doubt Korean war orphans were a distinct population responsible for any cultural shifts.

    Replies: @Mike Tre

    I didn’t say anything about orphans or cultural shifts. I was actually emphasizing Sailer’s point. If you disagree with his original observation about runaway females escaping poor home lives than by all means. It’s funny how you’ll dig up some numbers to discredit my observation but then offer nothing to support your own opinion. The divorce rate actually declined during the Korean War, so where else were all these rural born children of single mothers coming from.

  97. @Almost Missouri
    @Curle

    Yeah I wonder that too.

    Maybe they're more insane than average people. Or maybe those who judge themselves vulnerable to psychic shocks select themselves out, leaving a volunteer cohort who is more sane than average. Or maybe both are happening at the same time.

    I don't know, and I suspect no one else does either. The 1-in-20 figure stuck with me because it was the only time I've ever heard anyone attempt to quantify the hazards of hallucinogens. I think it was in the Tom Wolfe book.

    Obviously, a few people think hallucinogens have helped them. But we don't hear the contra- case because of survivorship bias: those who mistakenly believed they could fly or who became insane beyond coherence aren't making any public argument. I happen to have a few degrees of separation from several of these, though, so I know they exist(ed), and in my experience have handily outnumbered the "saved by hallucinogens" contingent.

    The scientific question, of course, is what is the cost, benefit, and ratio? As I say, I've seen very few attempts to quantify. But anecdotally, it doesn't look too good.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @S

    The 1-in-20 figure stuck with me because it was the only time I’ve ever heard anyone attempt to quantify the hazards of hallucinogens. I think it was in the Tom Wolfe book…But we don’t hear the contra- case because of survivorship bias: those who mistakenly believed they could fly or who became insane beyond coherence aren’t making any public argument.

    That’s a good point, and, an interesting question.

    Some of the old (somewhat reality based) TV series from circa 1968 give anecdotal hints of the real time situation. Adam 12, for instance, had an episode from that time where a kid was found in a park in a state of drug induced psychosis, and of course, many of the episodes involved drug possession. Hawaii 5-0 had an episode which featured a young 17-18 year old woman, thinking she could fly, jump off a cliff to her death. McGarrett, in the same episode, visits a Hawaii hospital ward with drug addicted people who have basically lost their minds.

    The George Lucas film of circa 1969-70 THX-1138 has a mass crowd scene (literally it appears to be thousands) of young bald people. These were extras Lucas had hired on the cheap from Synanon, a drug addiction program. These extras were almost all young Euro (ie ‘White’) California men and women in their late teens or early 20’s who were drug addicts. Unfortunately, rehab in the bulk of instances of drug addiction, is often largely ineffective.

    Some would, entirely understandably, question anecdotal evidence such as that. However, I think if anything, such examples tend to sugar coat how bad the situation actually was.

    Philip K Dick, the brilliant Californian author of Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep from which the movie Blade Runner was derived, would write the semi-autobiographical drug use centered novel A Scanner Darkly in 1977. At the end of the book he writes a dedication to the friends he has lost to drug addiction and names names and specifics. The list is only partial.

    I would suggest the 1960’s drug culture subtly promoted at the time by the corporate mass media did comparable damage in it’s way to the Baby Boomers as WWI did to it’s generation of young people. To paraphrase the German author Erich Remarque:

    ‘Though the Baby Boomer generation in many instances may have escaped personal drug use, the drug culture destroyed them even so.’

    ‘This has been a novel about some people who were punished entirely too much for what they did. They wanted to have a good time, but they were like children playing in the street…I loved them all. Here is the list, to whom I dedicate my love:

    To Gaylene deceased
    To Ray deceased
    To Francy permanent psychosis
    To Kathy permanent brain damage
    To Jim deceased
    To Val massive permanent brain damage
    To Nancy permanent psychosis
    To Joanne permanent brain damage
    To Maren deceased
    To Nick deceased
    To Terry deceased
    To Dennis deceased
    To Phil permanent pancreatic damage
    To Sue permanent vascular damage
    To Jerri permanent psychosis and vascular damage

    . . . and so forth.
    In Memoriam.

    These were comrades whom I had; there are no better. They remain in my mind, and the enemy will never be forgiven. The “enemy” was their mistake in playing. Let them all play again, in some other way, and let them be happy.’

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Scanner_Darkly

    https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/1527439-a-scanner-darkly

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synanon

    • Thanks: Almost Missouri
    • Replies: @Peter D. Bredon
    @S

    Don't forget the premier episode of the revived Dragnet: 1967: "The LSD Story" featuring Blue Boy.

    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0565680/?ref_=ttep_ep1

    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/43/47/c9/4347c9edb9aee4e353692d7bbe9bfcfd.jpg

    , @Jim Don Bob
    @S

    A Scanner Darkly is a scary book and the movie is pretty faithful to the book.

  98. @Anon
    @BenjaminL

    I've never thought much of her prose, and I've always thought most of what she wrote was trivial. She seemed concerned only with things that would be of interest to someone living in a New York high-rise. She was parochial and had a narrow viewpoint in a very New York way.

    Replies: @Muggles, @Colin Wright

    She seemed concerned only with things that would be of interest to someone living in a New York high-rise. She was parochial and had a narrow viewpoint in a very New York way.

    Doesn’t that describe virtually all NYC based writers, “journalists” and publications/websites.

    They live in Great Gotham. You don’t.

    That’s why every American by the time they’re 20 knows most of the street names and locales in Manhattan, Queens, Brooklyn (but not the Bronx, yet) and no one knows the name of any other street in America except maybe, just maybe, the street they live on.

    A couple of streets in LA (since all the TV and most films are made there locally) and a couple in Chicago, DC, etc.

    New Yorkers count, you don’t. If you need proof, look at any sports night wrap up and see how much attention is given to NYC teams versus anyplace else.

    Didion was just fitting in. They do sometimes accept provincials there, if they are clever enough.

    • Replies: @prosa123
    @Muggles

    That’s why every American by the time they’re 20 knows most of the street names and locales in Manhattan, Queens, Brooklyn (but not the Bronx, yet) and no one knows the name of any other street in America except maybe, just maybe, the street they live on.

    As most of the streets and avenues in those three boroughs are numbered rather than named, that doesn't mean much. Ask a person living elsewhere in the country and not particularly familiar with NYC to list some named Manhattan thoroughfares and you'll get Broadway,* Park Avenue, Madison Avenue, Wall Street, and, well, not much else. In Queens and Brooklyn, possibly nothing.

    * even most NYC residents think Broadway is the city's longest street, but they're wrong. It's actually Hylan Boulevard on Staten Island

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @D. K., @Peter D. Bredon

  99. @Anon
    @BenjaminL

    I've never thought much of her prose, and I've always thought most of what she wrote was trivial. She seemed concerned only with things that would be of interest to someone living in a New York high-rise. She was parochial and had a narrow viewpoint in a very New York way.

    Replies: @Muggles, @Colin Wright

    ‘…She seemed concerned only with things that would be of interest to someone living in a New York high-rise…’

    I don’t see Didion’s work as having been particularly New York-centric. If any place gets disproportionate attention in her work, it’s Southern California.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Colin Wright

    Didion is from an old money Sacramento family that split off from the Donner Family and took a more prudent route over the Sierras.

    Replies: @Colin Wright, @LP5

  100. @Curle
    @Reg Cæsar

    By the time the ‘80s rolled around Hollywood was projecting a different Jewish patriarch if Mare Winningham’s dad was the model, Rob Lowe was the cause of concern and St Elmo’s Fire was the movie.

    Replies: @JimDandy, @AceDeuce

    Fun fact: Mare Winningham played a wallflower virgin in St. Elmo’s Fire, but at the time the movie was filmed she was, in real life, pregnant with her third child by her second husband.

    Acting!

    Fun fact #2: She was born and raised a Roman Catholic, but converted to Judaism in her 40s.

  101. @Colin Wright
    @Anon

    '...She seemed concerned only with things that would be of interest to someone living in a New York high-rise...'

    I don't see Didion's work as having been particularly New York-centric. If any place gets disproportionate attention in her work, it's Southern California.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Didion is from an old money Sacramento family that split off from the Donner Family and took a more prudent route over the Sierras.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    @Steve Sailer

    'Didion is from an old money Sacramento family that split off from the Donner Family and took a more prudent route over the Sierras.'

    Yeah. My family's from fifteen years later -- and we were never money, old or new. Not poverty, but more like make-it-into-the-middle-class-and-that-will-do.

    Supposedly, some ancestress was part of the first class to graduate from Cal Berkeley. But my family's lore tends to fail to hold up under scrutiny, so...

    As I said, one tier down from Didion. Not that I hold it against her.

    , @LP5
    @Steve Sailer


    Didion is from an old money Sacramento family that split off from the Donner Family and took a more prudent route over the Sierras.

     

    There is an iSteveish story to that family. Big Jim Didion was a force in his own right.


    “Jim Didion was a driving force not only in the commercial real estate industry – his decades of invaluable public service included work on the National Realty Committee (NRC), the predecessor organization that became The Real Estate Roundtable in 1999,” said Jeffrey DeBoer, Roundtable President and CEO. He added, “Jim joined NRC in 1972, served in a variety of policy advisory roles for years, including as Chairman from 1993 to 1996 and beyond as NRC Chair Emeritus. He will always be remembered as a selfless contributor to the common good of the industry, the country and his community.”

    His real estate career began at Coldwell Banker Commercial, where he rose to become CEO and Chairman of CB Richard Ellis, leading the firm's growth from $400 million in annual revenues in 1986 to more than $1 billion in 1999. Mr. Didion has been widely recognized as a pioneer in building a global, fully integrated, professional services business and credited with leading CB to its position as the largest commercial real estate company in the world.

    Mr. Didion consulted on real estate issues to the Chancellor of the University of California at Berkeley and served on the advisory board of the Fisher Center at the Haas Business School, as trustee of Community Hospital of the Monterey Peninsula and as National Real Estate Consultant to the U.S. Olympic Committee.
  102. @Rob
    @prosa123

    Never had a hallucinogenic toad myself, but if I had had one? I would’ve licked it. Not sure I'd tell anyone, though.

    Where did she find the toad?

    Replies: @Ray P, @Ed Case, @Peter D. Bredon

    Everything you ever wanted to know about Hallucogenic Toads in 46 minutes:

    Another triumph of Australia’s Scientist Class!

  103. I’ve read her “The Year of Magical Thinking”. A very good book on psychological disintegration.

    As for the 60’s, stoners & California- couldn’t care less. Basically, now you reap what you sowed then.

  104. @Steve Sailer
    @Colin Wright

    Didion is from an old money Sacramento family that split off from the Donner Family and took a more prudent route over the Sierras.

    Replies: @Colin Wright, @LP5

    ‘Didion is from an old money Sacramento family that split off from the Donner Family and took a more prudent route over the Sierras.’

    Yeah. My family’s from fifteen years later — and we were never money, old or new. Not poverty, but more like make-it-into-the-middle-class-and-that-will-do.

    Supposedly, some ancestress was part of the first class to graduate from Cal Berkeley. But my family’s lore tends to fail to hold up under scrutiny, so…

    As I said, one tier down from Didion. Not that I hold it against her.

  105. @YetAnotherAnon
    @Red Pill Angel

    There were a fair few "acid casualties" - IMHO Peter Green and Syd Barratt to start with, plus a friend of mine who I was very fond of despite the fact that his brain had gone some years before I met him.

    Too much of that stuff can addle your brain.

    (In the UK the effects can be replicated somewhat less intensely by ingesting psilocybin mushrooms, which are quite common in early autumn)

    Replies: @hhsiii, @Old Prude

    I did acid a couple of times. Mushrooms more often in college. Ecstasy was legal back then, and when we did mushrooms and ecstasy we called it the MX missile. But again this was maybe twice. Coke also, maybe 4-5 times. Weed was fairly prevalent and I did that weekly for a bit. But usually beer, and by the time I graduated bourbon sours or ginger ale. Wine was more after graduating. I had fun doing LSD but it strikes me that there’s a strong chance one bad trip can alter you forever so I never went back. Heroin I did once but snorted it and fell asleep. This is all about 35 years ago now.

  106. @Red Pill Angel
    @Almost Missouri

    Well, it completely changed my politics, and I ended up commenting here. I would advise, if anyone really, really insists, to take a micro dose in a luxury hotel suite or other very pleasant backdrop (set and setting) with someone you trust who will sit up with you. All night if necessary.

    Replies: @Right_On, @Ben tillman

    All night if necessary.

    I’d advise a novice to take his first trial of LSD (150mcg is a safe dose) in the countryside or a park on a pleasant summer’s day. He’ll want to hug a tree.

    To those advocating magic mushrooms: mescaline is a better alternative psychedelic.

    • Agree: Red Pill Angel
    • Replies: @houston 1992
    @Right_On

    can you be certain of the weight and the purity that one is buying?

    Overall, it seems so dangerous to me because, in our evolutionary history, we never encountered LSD..... look at the problems alcohol gives some groups e.g.g the Finns, Peter Hitchen keeps banging the drum about the relationship between MJ use and schizophrenia ....... and, here , on a blog where commentators claim to be rooted in an understanding and respect for evolutionary forces, some folks casually suggest trying this alien to our longstanding evolutionary trajectory ....it may form synaptic connections that offer insight, but why did evolution not select for those "circuits?"

    Replies: @Right_On

  107. @SunBakedSuburb
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    "Aldous Huxley couldn't have tried LSD in 1967, unless it was from the netherworld."

    Sydney Gottlieb was dosing the punch bowls at CIA Christmas parties in 1954. The CIA's Office of Security was alarmed enough to send a memo to all departments to be wary of the punch. At the same time chemists at Eli Lilly cracked the Sandoz Lysergic Acid code and began producing "tonnage quantities" of LSD for Gottlieb and his MK-ULTRA colleagues to dispense to critical centers of cultural influence: universities, Hollywood, ect. Huxley had been in Hollywood since the mid-1930s, trying his hand at screenplays and continuing his exploration into the borderland between mysticism and science whilst attempting to push authoritarian Fabian Scientism in the United States. (judging by current developments it appears that Fabianism made inroads into the American managerial class).

    Huxley was no stranger to hallucinogens before LSD showed up in Hollywood and other elite circles around the country starting in the mid to late 1950s. Sydney Gottlieb was the Johnny Appleseed of LSD. In a sense, the CIA had a major role in the cultural revolution of the 1960s.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    And yet, Huxley was not publicly promoting LSD in 1967, as he had been dead for nearly four years. Which was the point of The Summer of Love, when LSD more or less officially went mainstream, or trickled down to the masses. Which was the main point of the post. In 1967, Huxley wasn’t around.

    • Replies: @BB753
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    No, but Timothy Leary was around. And pretty much every rock band was doing LSD by that time.

  108. @Curle
    @Cato

    How does one describe ‘wandering’ years on an resume? I’ve always wondered given the emphasis on having an ‘directed’ course of life appear on one’s resume when I was preparing to hit the job market in the early ‘80s. Maybe that attitude was an reaction to the hippie years.

    Replies: @Cato

    How does one describe ‘wandering’ years on an resume? I’ve always wondered given the emphasis on having an ‘directed’ course of life appear on one’s resume when I was preparing to hit the job market in the early ‘80s. Maybe that attitude was an reaction to the hippie years.

    It can’t go on a resume (“I spent a year village by village passing across northern India”; or “I joined the Moonies, and then dumped that to become a Nietzsche-freak”). Despite their protestations/assertions no company would find any value in that. You do that shit only for yourself. Even more true today than then.

    You are right about the reaction to the hippie years: the Reagan youth generation was not about Reagan, it was about not doing the foolish stuff uncles and parents had done.

  109. @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Cato

    Cato you are lucky to be an old fart.

    Try that now and most of what is available is chicks with dicks.

    Replies: @Cato

    Cato you are lucky to be an old fart. Try that now and most of what is available is chicks with dicks.

    In those days, LSD, etc., in every gathering there would be a woman or even women that would appear to be a kind of Elvan princess. When I look at videos of psytrance concerts, it seems that the same kind of stereotyping persists. Now, jaded as I have become, I think it a tragedy that an Elvan princess should have submitted to such degradation.

    It might be of interest to know that the country, in the 1970s, where one was in the greatest danger of inadvertently ending up with a chick with a dick was El Salvador. I had two friends who picked up what they thought were extremely attractive women, and discovered, after some passionate moments, that information asymmetry prevailed.

    • Replies: @Peter D. Bredon
    @Cato

    Someone should study this. Does this pass from country to country as a fad, or is the CIA trying it out in various places? Why El Salvador, then apparently Thailand? In the Ed Wood film, Bunny Breckenridge goes to Mexico for a sex change operation, though that was pioneered in Denmark, as per Ed's Glen or Glenda inspiration. As I said, does the CIA or whoever try this stuff out in the 3rd world, then bring it over the the US and Europe as planned?

  110. @Right_On
    @Red Pill Angel

    All night if necessary.

    I'd advise a novice to take his first trial of LSD (150mcg is a safe dose) in the countryside or a park on a pleasant summer's day. He'll want to hug a tree.

    To those advocating magic mushrooms: mescaline is a better alternative psychedelic.

    Replies: @houston 1992

    can you be certain of the weight and the purity that one is buying?

    Overall, it seems so dangerous to me because, in our evolutionary history, we never encountered LSD….. look at the problems alcohol gives some groups e.g.g the Finns, Peter Hitchen keeps banging the drum about the relationship between MJ use and schizophrenia ……. and, here , on a blog where commentators claim to be rooted in an understanding and respect for evolutionary forces, some folks casually suggest trying this alien to our longstanding evolutionary trajectory ….it may form synaptic connections that offer insight, but why did evolution not select for those “circuits?”

    • Replies: @Right_On
    @houston 1992

    Overall, it seems so dangerous to me because, in our evolutionary history, we never encountered LSD

    To be clear, I'd only advise someone to take his first trip outdoors in the sunshine if that someone had already decided for himself that he was going to sample the chemical.

    Peter Hitchens keeps banging the drum about the relationship between MJ use and schizophrenia

    I agree with Hitchens! The thing about top-end psychedelics, like mescaline, is that most people only try them once in a blue moon; with cannabis, people get into the habit of smoking every single day, so the mind-brain-body circuits never get a chance to re-set.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

  111. @Anon
    @Reg Cæsar

    The Jews had more money to put their kids back together with. The WASPs understood that it was a disgrace if you let your standards down, and you're drop down into a lower social class if you did. The WASPs understood that they kept their place by being people you'd look up to, not acting like clowns. The WASPs understood that it took more than money to create high social status, it took exemplary behavior as well.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    My Northeastern WASP stepbrother moved to San Francisco in the ’80s, and before long was shacking up with a girl. A decade or so earlier and this would have been shocking, albeit more for social rather than moral reasons.

    But this was San Francisco the ’80s. They were quick to remind everyone that he was shacking up with a girl.

    • LOL: Bardon Kaldian
  112. @Muggles
    @Anon


    She seemed concerned only with things that would be of interest to someone living in a New York high-rise. She was parochial and had a narrow viewpoint in a very New York way.
     
    Doesn't that describe virtually all NYC based writers, "journalists" and publications/websites.

    They live in Great Gotham. You don't.

    That's why every American by the time they're 20 knows most of the street names and locales in Manhattan, Queens, Brooklyn (but not the Bronx, yet) and no one knows the name of any other street in America except maybe, just maybe, the street they live on.

    A couple of streets in LA (since all the TV and most films are made there locally) and a couple in Chicago, DC, etc.

    New Yorkers count, you don't. If you need proof, look at any sports night wrap up and see how much attention is given to NYC teams versus anyplace else.

    Didion was just fitting in. They do sometimes accept provincials there, if they are clever enough.

    Replies: @prosa123

    That’s why every American by the time they’re 20 knows most of the street names and locales in Manhattan, Queens, Brooklyn (but not the Bronx, yet) and no one knows the name of any other street in America except maybe, just maybe, the street they live on.

    As most of the streets and avenues in those three boroughs are numbered rather than named, that doesn’t mean much. Ask a person living elsewhere in the country and not particularly familiar with NYC to list some named Manhattan thoroughfares and you’ll get Broadway,* Park Avenue, Madison Avenue, Wall Street, and, well, not much else. In Queens and Brooklyn, possibly nothing.

    * even most NYC residents think Broadway is the city’s longest street, but they’re wrong. It’s actually Hylan Boulevard on Staten Island

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @prosa123


    most NYC residents think Broadway is the city’s longest street, but they’re wrong.
     
    Well, if you consider that Broadway is also NY State Route 9, and that Rt. 9 goes at least as far north as Albany, they might be right.

    Replies: @Known Fact

    , @D. K.
    @prosa123

    I used to take the Staten Island Railway, from Tompkinsville to New Dorp, to do most of my grocery shopping at the ShopRite and Stop & Shop stores on Hylan Boulevard. As long as you got on and off the train between its endpoints, at Saint George and Tottenville, the ride was free-- as was the Staten Island Ferry ride, from Saint George to Whitehall, in Manhattan, and vice versa.

    , @Peter D. Bredon
    @prosa123

    I think the real factor is that NYC streets have become the shorthand names for industries or social groups (metonyms?) Of the ones you list,

    Broadway: musical theatre
    Park Avenue,: rich folks
    Madison Avenue: advertising (hence "Mad Men")
    Wall Street (stocks or finance, probably the first example, going back to the 1700s)

    Less well known;

    Seventh Ave. (fashion, perhaps better known since Sex & the City)
    East 60s (if you read Tom Wolfe)
    The Bowery (bums, aka "the homeless", although now they're everywhere, except the East 60s).

    In the same way, people think of real estate terms like Greenwich Village, Soho, Meatpacking District, UWS, etc. but have no clear idea of where these places are. The Cinema Sins guy on YouTube points out that the geography of NYC in Die Hard With a Vengeance is entirely surrealistic, despite being filmed on location.

    "I don't know how good your geography is"; Bert Cooper explains New York real estate and social class to Don Draper, from rural Pennsylvania.

    3:34 "New York City is a marvelous machine, filled with gears and springs, tightly wound, like a watch."

    https://youtu.be/moH1Dctkozw

  113. @YetAnotherAnon
    @Red Pill Angel

    There were a fair few "acid casualties" - IMHO Peter Green and Syd Barratt to start with, plus a friend of mine who I was very fond of despite the fact that his brain had gone some years before I met him.

    Too much of that stuff can addle your brain.

    (In the UK the effects can be replicated somewhat less intensely by ingesting psilocybin mushrooms, which are quite common in early autumn)

    Replies: @hhsiii, @Old Prude

    A friend told me ‘shrooms were fun for the first two hours, but getting thru the next five hours of tripping was a drag.

    I had a roommate come in one evening high on coke. It looked like he was having a great time.

  114. @AceDeuce
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    As they say, when the students are ready, the teacher appears.

    March, 1967 saw a thirtysomething ex-con named Charlie Manson get released from Terminal Island. He violated parole by moving north to Berkeley, where a sympathetic parole officer overlooked it and allowed him to settle in San Francisco just in time for the Summer of Love.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Feryl

    Charlie Manson is quite the “man of mystery”. Rumor has it he was an informant, thus explaining his getting very lenient treatment from authorities prior to the murders being linked to him. If you do some digging the official narrative of the murders turns out a little…. Iffy. There’s definitely some hinky stuff involving Manson, the California cultural elite, the criminal underworld, and the authorities.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @Feryl

    Can't remember where I heard/read it, but there was reasonably plausible case that Manson had a side gig supplying pliable young women (from his "family", presumably) to influential people in important social groups for parties/events/personal use/whatever. So yeah, authorities weren't eager to break up that pipeline unnecessarily, in this telling. Which is to say, it wasn't so much that he was an informant, but conversely that they didn't want the information he knew to become public. Plus they probably liked his product. Fortunately for them, Manson was too insane to use what he knew to extort his way to freedom.

    Replies: @Feryl, @Alden

  115. @Carol
    @Mr. Anon

    Apparently the city had been giving cash welfare to the able bodied, male and female.

    But the benefits stopped abruptly ca 1968, "forcing" the denizens into drug dealing or prostitution.

    So of course it was never the same.

    Replies: @Feryl

    I have a Gen Z co-worker who got into the whole “sex trafficking victim” narrative*. As we age we all figure out that there mostly aren’t bad situations, but bad people. Only someone of dubious character convinces themselves that the hooker trade or drug trade is the only option they have left for survival. Good people don’t commit legal (or moral) crimes, bad people do.

    *Note that I’m talking about older people here. Children of course always are legit victims within the context of criminal enterprises, these are the victims in whom we ought to place our greatest concern.

  116. @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Almost Missouri


    Obviously, a few people think hallucinogens have helped them. But we don’t hear the contra- case because of survivorship bias: those who mistakenly believed they could fly or who became insane beyond coherence aren’t making any public argument.
     
    The bad trip reports are all there on erowid and really doing due diligence is recommended. What you are imagining as the hazard is not it. The thing is you might find yourself tripping and visualizing how stupid or fat or ugly or how much a loser you are. Since society has a pretty high bar for these only about 1% of the population is immune to this hazard.

    Terance McKenna gave up psychedelics because of bad trips. This bad trip.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

    The bad trip reports are all there on erowid and really doing due diligence is recommended. What you are imagining as the hazard is not it.

    Sorry, but the report of my friend’s hippy uncle who walked off a roof while tripping is most definitely not among the curated but still semi-literate “experiences” that populate the “vaults” of Erowid. Nor is the report of another friend’s permanently fried circuitry. Nor are half a dozen others cases I could describe.

    Are any of Erich Remarque’s many drug casualty friends among the Erowid reports? Again, no.

    Survivorship bias rules here.

    Finally noticing that you’re fat or stupid or ugly or whatever is fine—we all are that on a certain level. What I’m talking about is something different: being dead or permanently mentally crippled. Such cases are not in short supply, but they get brushed aside by the “oh just take a couple tabs in a good environment” crowd. And dead men tell no tales to the contrary.

  117. @prosa123
    @Muggles

    That’s why every American by the time they’re 20 knows most of the street names and locales in Manhattan, Queens, Brooklyn (but not the Bronx, yet) and no one knows the name of any other street in America except maybe, just maybe, the street they live on.

    As most of the streets and avenues in those three boroughs are numbered rather than named, that doesn't mean much. Ask a person living elsewhere in the country and not particularly familiar with NYC to list some named Manhattan thoroughfares and you'll get Broadway,* Park Avenue, Madison Avenue, Wall Street, and, well, not much else. In Queens and Brooklyn, possibly nothing.

    * even most NYC residents think Broadway is the city's longest street, but they're wrong. It's actually Hylan Boulevard on Staten Island

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @D. K., @Peter D. Bredon

    most NYC residents think Broadway is the city’s longest street, but they’re wrong.

    Well, if you consider that Broadway is also NY State Route 9, and that Rt. 9 goes at least as far north as Albany, they might be right.

    • Replies: @Known Fact
    @Almost Missouri

    Give My Regards to NY State Route 9 just doesn't roll off the tongue though

  118. @Feryl
    @AceDeuce

    Charlie Manson is quite the "man of mystery". Rumor has it he was an informant, thus explaining his getting very lenient treatment from authorities prior to the murders being linked to him. If you do some digging the official narrative of the murders turns out a little.... Iffy. There's definitely some hinky stuff involving Manson, the California cultural elite, the criminal underworld, and the authorities.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

    Can’t remember where I heard/read it, but there was reasonably plausible case that Manson had a side gig supplying pliable young women (from his “family”, presumably) to influential people in important social groups for parties/events/personal use/whatever. So yeah, authorities weren’t eager to break up that pipeline unnecessarily, in this telling. Which is to say, it wasn’t so much that he was an informant, but conversely that they didn’t want the information he knew to become public. Plus they probably liked his product. Fortunately for them, Manson was too insane to use what he knew to extort his way to freedom.

    • Replies: @Feryl
    @Almost Missouri

    Yes, Charlie had been a pimp for years. Then the 60's happened, a huge rush of young vulnerable girls and pro-drug culture which as Steve says provided fodder for middle aged sleaze bags. But this was all desperately covered up by the authorities who made Manson out to be a "hippie"cult guru with insane followers

    , @Alden
    @Almost Missouri

    I had the impression the Manson girls went after only young musicians. They were all pretty, some beauties but too unkempt badly dressed and drug addled to appeal to any but the dirty unkempt drug addled music crowd.

    With 10 to 20 pretty girls an ordinary pimp and the girls would have made enough money for functional cars clean clothes and rent a normal place to live, not squatting in an old movie set out in the desert.

    We were right there in the middle of the San Francisco thing. To me, it was as orchestrated as the tranny movement of today. Or gay marriage 15 years ago. What does the satanic liberal central committee have next for us after covid hoax?

  119. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @SunBakedSuburb

    And yet, Huxley was not publicly promoting LSD in 1967, as he had been dead for nearly four years. Which was the point of The Summer of Love, when LSD more or less officially went mainstream, or trickled down to the masses. Which was the main point of the post. In 1967, Huxley wasn't around.

    Replies: @BB753

    No, but Timothy Leary was around. And pretty much every rock band was doing LSD by that time.

  120. I knew Peter Matthiessen…a bit…..After he died I learned more about him because my friends told me he was very famous East End writer. Peter went through Yalie CIA spook stage…onto acid dropping.

    So here is my question:‘did the CIA create the the 1960s counterculture?

    I wonder how Peter would feel about that those twin plasma screen monstrosities on the Sunrise Highway put up by the fake Injuns? But I do hope the fake Injuns get a hold of the golf course!!!

  121. @Steve Sailer
    @Colin Wright

    Didion is from an old money Sacramento family that split off from the Donner Family and took a more prudent route over the Sierras.

    Replies: @Colin Wright, @LP5

    Didion is from an old money Sacramento family that split off from the Donner Family and took a more prudent route over the Sierras.

    There is an iSteveish story to that family. Big Jim Didion was a force in his own right.

    [MORE]

    “Jim Didion was a driving force not only in the commercial real estate industry – his decades of invaluable public service included work on the National Realty Committee (NRC), the predecessor organization that became The Real Estate Roundtable in 1999,” said Jeffrey DeBoer, Roundtable President and CEO. He added, “Jim joined NRC in 1972, served in a variety of policy advisory roles for years, including as Chairman from 1993 to 1996 and beyond as NRC Chair Emeritus. He will always be remembered as a selfless contributor to the common good of the industry, the country and his community.”

    His real estate career began at Coldwell Banker Commercial, where he rose to become CEO and Chairman of CB Richard Ellis, leading the firm’s growth from \$400 million in annual revenues in 1986 to more than \$1 billion in 1999. Mr. Didion has been widely recognized as a pioneer in building a global, fully integrated, professional services business and credited with leading CB to its position as the largest commercial real estate company in the world.

    Mr. Didion consulted on real estate issues to the Chancellor of the University of California at Berkeley and served on the advisory board of the Fisher Center at the Haas Business School, as trustee of Community Hospital of the Monterey Peninsula and as National Real Estate Consultant to the U.S. Olympic Committee.

  122. @The Plutonium Kid
    @Daniel H

    One of the reasons it's so far underground is that it's so damned difficult to make. You need someone with a fairly sophisticated knowledge of chemistry and a pretty elaborate laboratory. It's not at all as simple as whipping up some bathtub gin or a batch of meth. I doubt there's any actual LSD for sale out there. If there is, you'll need some extremely hard to find connections.

    Replies: @74v56ruthiyj, @Ben tillman

    Here in Texas, I always laugh when I come across someone named Owsley.

  123. Great comments, thanks.

    Some of the old (somewhat reality based) TV series from circa 1968 give anecdotal hints of the real time situation.

    Hippies, drugs, runaway girls, sleazy gurus etc gave TV people a mountain of fresh material as the networks became hellbent on becoming younger and more “relevant” — e.g. Mod Squad or The Storefront Lawyers.

    Hawaii 5-0 was at the forefront of this theme as Honolulu (much like California) provided the perfect climate for the low-cost hippie/beach bum lifestyle and the concomitant drug trade — which McGarrett would point out was a deep source of danger and predation, not just groovy and innocent. The split between young people and their loving but “uptight” parents was a constant trope leading to trouble.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Known Fact

    Disagree. Housing was expensive in Honolulu. A man I knew who was living there ca. 1974 estimated the price of a detached house around Honolulu was > 2x what a comparable house would cost in Rochester. Affluent people commonly lived in condominiums rather than detached housing. Have you seen photographs of the building the Dunhams lived in the Beretania section of the city? She'd had a satisfactory executive position at the Bank of Hawaii, and the place they were living was frankly depressing.

    Replies: @Curle

  124. @Almost Missouri
    @prosa123


    most NYC residents think Broadway is the city’s longest street, but they’re wrong.
     
    Well, if you consider that Broadway is also NY State Route 9, and that Rt. 9 goes at least as far north as Albany, they might be right.

    Replies: @Known Fact

    Give My Regards to NY State Route 9 just doesn’t roll off the tongue though

  125. @Harpagornis
    @Daniel H

    The dark web (use Brave browser) has made high quality LSD (as well as a myriad other substances) cheaper and easier to obtain than ever before. If you want to go down that particular rabbit hole, which I don't recommend, a quick Reddit search will turn up a number of discussion boards which cover accessing the market, as well as the drugs themselves, in depth.

    If you really must try, psilocybin (magic mushrooms) are probably a better option as the 'trip' is considerably shorter in length. Depending on where you are they are practically legal - in fact with a little research you can probably turn up a psychedelic therapist willing to guide you through your experience. If you decide to go the amateur route there are excellent written guides on what to do (and what not to) on-line. Again ask Reddit.

    Psychedelics may have some potential as a therapeutic tool but unfortunately the field is flooded with evangelists and various hucksters of all stripes. Their long term cultural influence is murky at best but I doubt it will be the utopia adherents envisage.

    Replies: @Ben tillman

    Cheaper than ever before? In the 1980’s 100 or 150 mikes was \$2 or \$2.50. Cost has never been an issue.

  126. @Red Pill Angel
    @Almost Missouri

    Well, it completely changed my politics, and I ended up commenting here. I would advise, if anyone really, really insists, to take a micro dose in a luxury hotel suite or other very pleasant backdrop (set and setting) with someone you trust who will sit up with you. All night if necessary.

    Replies: @Right_On, @Ben tillman

    Yep. It can bring out race memory.

    • Thanks: Red Pill Angel
  127. @prosa123
    @Muggles

    That’s why every American by the time they’re 20 knows most of the street names and locales in Manhattan, Queens, Brooklyn (but not the Bronx, yet) and no one knows the name of any other street in America except maybe, just maybe, the street they live on.

    As most of the streets and avenues in those three boroughs are numbered rather than named, that doesn't mean much. Ask a person living elsewhere in the country and not particularly familiar with NYC to list some named Manhattan thoroughfares and you'll get Broadway,* Park Avenue, Madison Avenue, Wall Street, and, well, not much else. In Queens and Brooklyn, possibly nothing.

    * even most NYC residents think Broadway is the city's longest street, but they're wrong. It's actually Hylan Boulevard on Staten Island

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @D. K., @Peter D. Bredon

    I used to take the Staten Island Railway, from Tompkinsville to New Dorp, to do most of my grocery shopping at the ShopRite and Stop & Shop stores on Hylan Boulevard. As long as you got on and off the train between its endpoints, at Saint George and Tottenville, the ride was free– as was the Staten Island Ferry ride, from Saint George to Whitehall, in Manhattan, and vice versa.

  128. @Red Pill Angel
    @Daniel H

    “How does one get LSD today? Who does one approach and ask to sell some? Is it verboten to go to youngish club and announce, “Hey does anybody know where one can get some LSD..?” I’m old enough to handle this stuff. I resent that it is still so far underground.”

    Don’t. Don’t do it. I thought, oh, what could happen to me now? It was awful. Awful. Absolutely awful. Not fun. And I once met Timothy Leary his own effing self before (when he was alive natch) and he gave me personal advice on how to take one’s first trip in middle age. “I was 42 when I took my first trip,” he said. Well, it was fine for about 5 hours, the curtains breathing, on the beach, then it went straight to hell in a hand basket. I can only assume that Timothy Leary had an ego made out of cast iron, and I don’t.

    Replies: @HammerJack, @Thea, @YetAnotherAnon, @G. Poulin

    No one who comes from a family with a history of mental illness should go anywhere near the stuff. It can act as a trigger for latent psychosis. In some cases the psychosis will be permanent. Ask my old high school sweetheart, now a bag lady.

    • Agree: Almost Missouri
  129. @Cato

    the hippie chicks pouring off the Greyhound buses in San Francisco in 1967 tended to be working class runaways from broken homes getting away from mom and her boyfriend, without recognizing that worse is in the waiting for them in San Francisco.
     
    Yes! -- this is not widely recognized but true.

    Just an anecdote (not data): in my years as a wanderer in the early 70s, most of the women on the more hippie side of freakdom were clearly exploited: indoctrinated into giving it to anyone who asked and popping out babies from who knows whom.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @Curle, @Haxo Angmark

    in fact a high % of these White girls looking for strong daddy were picked-off (then rented out and eventually killed with an OD) by needle-wielding Blacks….among them my first ex-GF, San Francisco 1965-1967.

  130. I used to take the Staten Island Railway, from Tompkinsville to New Dorp, to do most of my grocery shopping at the ShopRite and Stop & Shop stores on Hylan Boulevard. As long as you got on and off the train between its endpoints, at Saint George and Tottenville, the ride was free– as was the Staten Island Ferry ride, from Saint George to Whitehall, in Manhattan, and vice versa.

    Employee schedules classify Tottenville-St. George trains as westbound even though Tottenville is quite some distance west of St. George. Similarly, they call St. George-Tottenville trains eastbound even though they’re traveling to the west. It’s a legacy of the pre-1953 closing of the North Shore line.

    To this day some frugal riders walk from St. George to Tompkinsville or vice-versa to avoid having to pay a fare.

    BTW, New Dorp to and from ShopRite or Stop&Shop was a pretty long hike, especially with shopping bags.

    • Replies: @D. K.
    @prosa123

    Being a bachelor, shopping for one, and making multiple trips to the store, most weeks, I was able to handle the load-- thanks to plastic bags rather than paper bags! When I would get off of the train at Tompkinsville, at certain hours of the day, I often would be in the midst of a huge throng of illegal aliens, heading home to the barrio, after getting off their jobs in restaurants, down the line. I lived on Scribner, about a fifteen-minute walk to and from the Ferry terminal at Saint George.

  131. @prosa123
    I used to take the Staten Island Railway, from Tompkinsville to New Dorp, to do most of my grocery shopping at the ShopRite and Stop & Shop stores on Hylan Boulevard. As long as you got on and off the train between its endpoints, at Saint George and Tottenville, the ride was free– as was the Staten Island Ferry ride, from Saint George to Whitehall, in Manhattan, and vice versa.

    Employee schedules classify Tottenville-St. George trains as westbound even though Tottenville is quite some distance west of St. George. Similarly, they call St. George-Tottenville trains eastbound even though they're traveling to the west. It's a legacy of the pre-1953 closing of the North Shore line.

    To this day some frugal riders walk from St. George to Tompkinsville or vice-versa to avoid having to pay a fare.

    BTW, New Dorp to and from ShopRite or Stop&Shop was a pretty long hike, especially with shopping bags.

    Replies: @D. K.

    Being a bachelor, shopping for one, and making multiple trips to the store, most weeks, I was able to handle the load– thanks to plastic bags rather than paper bags! When I would get off of the train at Tompkinsville, at certain hours of the day, I often would be in the midst of a huge throng of illegal aliens, heading home to the barrio, after getting off their jobs in restaurants, down the line. I lived on Scribner, about a fifteen-minute walk to and from the Ferry terminal at Saint George.

  132. @Rob
    @Daniel H

    If you want to try a psychedelic, I suggest shrooms. They’re natural, and while natural does mean “safe,” it does mean no chemistry program dropout messed up the synthesis, forgot to precipitate the mercury catalyst out, or somesuch. The trip is also mercifully shorter, like 5-6 hours instead of 12-14? Like acid. I had a great trip one evening/night at a friend's cabin in the woods. By 6 am, I was trying to sleep in the car. I decided the cabin was the Texas Chain Saw Massacre house, but if I didn’t look at it, I would be ok, I woke up too soon, maybe 9 am with a terrible crick in my neck, but feeling pretty good, cuz I realized Leatherface wasn’t real.

    On the other hand, I had a great mushroom trip one time, but the next morning I cried, literally cried. Tears running down my face and snotting up a storm because Yoda wasn’t real.

    Handle hallucinogens with care. To this day, I cannot stand the smell or taste of some non-magical mushrooms.

    Replies: @Ray P, @prosa123, @Triteleia Laxa

    Hallucinogenic toads, LSD, Ayahuasca and Mushrooms are just like having a cup of coffee for me, and actually my friend too. It isn’t that we don’t see stuff on them. It is that it makes no difference.

    • Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican
    @Triteleia Laxa

    You all ain’t hitting the good stuff:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10257945/Finnish-soldier-accidentally-overdosed-Nazi-meth-pills-World-War-2-battle.html

    https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2021/12/25/08/52206593-0-image-a-5_1640420197044.jpg


    Aimo Koivunen (left), a Finnish soldier, was fleeing Soviets troops during a scouting mission in 1944 when he accidentally took his whole squad's supply of Nazi meth pills (inset) - sparking a two-week trip.

    During that time, Aimo skiied (ski soldiers pictured, right) some 250 miles around the Arctic Circle while hallucinating and suffering blackouts, at one point fighting a wolverine that turned out to be a tree branch and talking to old friends who weren't there.

    He ended up stumbling into an abandoned German camp that had been booby-trapped, stepping on a land mine that blew his right foot off, and then setting off another bomb that blew most of his clothes away. He was eventually found, two weeks after disappearing, badly wounded, half-naked and eating a raw bird in a ditch.

    He was taken to hospital where medics found his heart rate was more than double what it should be, but survived and died in 1989 at the age of 71.
     
    , @Rob
    @Triteleia Laxa

    No offense, I find that hard to believe. Have you tried any psychedelics from the same batch with other people? Did your friends trip, but you didn’t?

    For everyone else, if you take LSD within 3(?) days of your last trip, it won’t do anything. I find that rather amazing too, tbh

    Just out of curiosity, do you remember your dreams?

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa

  133. @Known Fact
    Great comments, thanks.

    Some of the old (somewhat reality based) TV series from circa 1968 give anecdotal hints of the real time situation.
     
    Hippies, drugs, runaway girls, sleazy gurus etc gave TV people a mountain of fresh material as the networks became hellbent on becoming younger and more "relevant" -- e.g. Mod Squad or The Storefront Lawyers.

    Hawaii 5-0 was at the forefront of this theme as Honolulu (much like California) provided the perfect climate for the low-cost hippie/beach bum lifestyle and the concomitant drug trade -- which McGarrett would point out was a deep source of danger and predation, not just groovy and innocent. The split between young people and their loving but "uptight" parents was a constant trope leading to trouble.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    Disagree. Housing was expensive in Honolulu. A man I knew who was living there ca. 1974 estimated the price of a detached house around Honolulu was > 2x what a comparable house would cost in Rochester. Affluent people commonly lived in condominiums rather than detached housing. Have you seen photographs of the building the Dunhams lived in the Beretania section of the city? She’d had a satisfactory executive position at the Bank of Hawaii, and the place they were living was frankly depressing.

    • Thanks: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @Curle
    @Art Deco

    “ Affluent people commonly lived in condominiums rather than detached housing.”

    Vast majority of affluent families living in Hono. in the ‘70s lived in detached housing. There were singles and retirees and the occasional family living in a large attached condo. Yes, prices were elevated compared to mainland.

  134. @houston 1992
    @Right_On

    can you be certain of the weight and the purity that one is buying?

    Overall, it seems so dangerous to me because, in our evolutionary history, we never encountered LSD..... look at the problems alcohol gives some groups e.g.g the Finns, Peter Hitchen keeps banging the drum about the relationship between MJ use and schizophrenia ....... and, here , on a blog where commentators claim to be rooted in an understanding and respect for evolutionary forces, some folks casually suggest trying this alien to our longstanding evolutionary trajectory ....it may form synaptic connections that offer insight, but why did evolution not select for those "circuits?"

    Replies: @Right_On

    Overall, it seems so dangerous to me because, in our evolutionary history, we never encountered LSD

    To be clear, I’d only advise someone to take his first trip outdoors in the sunshine if that someone had already decided for himself that he was going to sample the chemical.

    Peter Hitchens keeps banging the drum about the relationship between MJ use and schizophrenia

    I agree with Hitchens! The thing about top-end psychedelics, like mescaline, is that most people only try them once in a blue moon; with cannabis, people get into the habit of smoking every single day, so the mind-brain-body circuits never get a chance to re-set.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @Right_On


    advise someone to take his first trip outdoors in the sunshine
     
    Jaysus dude, dilating your pupils for hours in outdoor sunshine sounds like a recipe for permanent retina damage.

    Leaving aside the occasional brain damage and unintentional suicides.
  135. @AndrewR
    @Daniel H

    I did my fair share back in the day. You're not missing much.

    Replies: @James J O'Meara

    It’s really quite remarkable how little influence such a supposedly divine drug had. Most of the “culture” it directly inspired seems at best dated: light shows, black light posters, rock concert poster art, etc. Our world should be more like Huxley’s Island than the Brave New World we have now.

    “And that, I think, was the handle—that sense of inevitable victory over the forces of Old and Evil. Not in any mean or military sense; we didn’t need that. Our energy would simply prevail. There was no point in fighting—on our side or theirs. We had all the momentum; we were riding the crest of a high and beautiful wave. . . . So now, less than five years later, you can go up on a steep hill in Las Vegas and look West, and with the right kind of eyes you can almost see the high-water mark—that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.” — HST, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.

  136. @Curle
    @Almost Missouri

    What is the control set insanity outcome for an cohort of people willing to use their bodies as an lab for testing the effects of new drugs?

    Replies: @SunBakedSuburb, @Almost Missouri, @James J O'Meara

    I assume you’re envisioning “dirty hippies” but the white button-down collar, Ivy League CIA guys in the 50s were dosing each other with LSD for shits and giggles. Also for assassinations (Forrestal). So it’s more like father like son.

  137. Disagree. Housing was expensive in Honolulu. A man I knew who was living there ca. 1974 estimated the price of a detached house around Honolulu was > 2x what a comparable house would cost in Rochester.

    Who said anything about “housing” — the subculture depicted here was more about people “crashing” in the cheapest accommodations or living on the streets. Of course Hawaii is expensive for normal residents but the edges of American society mostly drift toward mild climates, not Rochester.

    The 12-year run of 5-0 traces the state’s meteoric growth and cultural change so things probably did become more costly and affluent as you describe. The hippies running wild through the late 60s/early 70s episodes thinned out and by 1979 the best episode of a fading show featured the mob muscling in on the disco business!

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Known Fact

    Who said anything about “housing” — the subculture depicted here was more about people “crashing” in the cheapest accommodations or living on the streets.

    Only a tiny minority in this country are vagrants (< 0.25%). People pay rent.


    The 12-year run of 5-0 traces the state’s meteoric growth and cultural change so things probably did become more costly and affluent as you describe.

    The explosive growth in population occurred between 1896 and 1930. Hawaii had above average rates of population growth from about 1930 to about 1990. During the period in question (1960-80), their growth rate was middling for a western state.

  138. @Almost Missouri
    @HammerJack


    How to predict?
     
    It's been a while but I seem to recall that something like 5% of Timothy Leary's acid test subjects became insane.

    So not as dangerous as Russian Roulette, but more dangerous than cinematography for Alec Baldwin.

    Replies: @Red Pill Angel, @Curle, @James J O'Meara

    I propose we start measuring danger in units of “Baldwin.”

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @James J O'Meara

    Yeah, Wiki says Baldwin worked on 90 films, presumably each with one cinematographer, so that makes a "Baldwin Risk Unit" equal to a 1.1% chance of instant death.

    OTOH, IMDB gives him 24 producer credits, so by the producer standard a BRU is 4%. Producer credits include TV. Do TV shows have cinematographers if it is not meant for cinema? I don't know. I guess so. If so, then IMDB gives Baldwin 145 total acting credits, making the acting BRU about 0.7%.

    Anyway, the BRU is less than the Russian Roulette risk unit of 17%.

    Next controversy: what is the risk unit of mRNA "vaccines"? Side effects seem to be orders of magnitude more common than with traditional vaccines, like maybe 1-in-1000 instead of 1-in-1,000,000. So edging up into BRU territory.

    Replies: @LP5

  139. @Emil Nikola Richard
    @D. K.

    I wonder if the Cary Grant doctor had CIA connections. I would say it is at least a 50-50 bet the CIA drug projects had more than one file on the Cary Grant situation.

    Replies: @James J O'Meara

    At minute 37:00 they brag about running 1000 important people through the LSD program including Cary Grant.

    https://www.winterwatch.net/2019/12/in-plain-view-jaw-dropping-video-of-lsd-promoters-holding-1979-meeting/

  140. @Luke Lea
    @Dave Pinsen

    That might have been me. In 1967 I shared a five bedroom house on Rivoli Street with four other recent Reed graduates, my share of the rent being $30 a month, which I paid for with a 45 minute a day job cleaning up a doctor's office half an hour away by car. Total income: $100 a month. My car, by the way, happened to be an 1956 Ford convertible which I bought in Berkeley in 1964 for $50. You could live cheap back then, even in San Francisco.

    I wasn't a hippy, by the way. I was a hippy anthropologist

    Replies: @James J O'Meara, @Curle, @Obstinate Cymric

    I have the sense that a lot of the postwar and otherwise Beats seem to have spent a lot of time going from one “menial” job to another, quitting when bored or having made enough to live on for a few months, filling in the rest of the time writing. Gary Snyder, for example, spent time as a fire watcher on some mountain, Kesey worked in a mental institution, Dean Moriarty delivering cars by driving them across country (with non-driver Kerouac riding shotgun), Alex Trocchi as a watchman on a NYC barge, etc.

    Obviously all this was grist for the writing mill, as you can see. Living on grants or a trust fund seems lame by comparison.

    The GI Bill was another source of income (Donleavy), as was enlisting in the merchant marine (Ginsburg, Kerouac).

    Burroughs was an outlier, with his family trust fund, but even he felt the need to spend time working: exterminator, sharecropper, etc.

    The steady outsourcing, automation and simple elimination of such jobs must have had bad consequences even for literature, to say nothing of the working class itself.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @James J O'Meara

    The author's bio on a mid-Century novel tried to list as many manual labor jobs as possible: the novelist with the most had a leg up on the competition.

    Replies: @Curle

  141. @Rob
    @prosa123

    Never had a hallucinogenic toad myself, but if I had had one? I would’ve licked it. Not sure I'd tell anyone, though.

    Where did she find the toad?

    Replies: @Ray P, @Ed Case, @Peter D. Bredon

    • LOL: Rob, Hangnail Hans
  142. @S
    @Almost Missouri


    The 1-in-20 figure stuck with me because it was the only time I’ve ever heard anyone attempt to quantify the hazards of hallucinogens. I think it was in the Tom Wolfe book...But we don’t hear the contra- case because of survivorship bias: those who mistakenly believed they could fly or who became insane beyond coherence aren’t making any public argument.
     
    That's a good point, and, an interesting question.

    Some of the old (somewhat reality based) TV series from circa 1968 give anecdotal hints of the real time situation. Adam 12, for instance, had an episode from that time where a kid was found in a park in a state of drug induced psychosis, and of course, many of the episodes involved drug possession. Hawaii 5-0 had an episode which featured a young 17-18 year old woman, thinking she could fly, jump off a cliff to her death. McGarrett, in the same episode, visits a Hawaii hospital ward with drug addicted people who have basically lost their minds.

    The George Lucas film of circa 1969-70 THX-1138 has a mass crowd scene (literally it appears to be thousands) of young bald people. These were extras Lucas had hired on the cheap from Synanon, a drug addiction program. These extras were almost all young Euro (ie 'White') California men and women in their late teens or early 20's who were drug addicts. Unfortunately, rehab in the bulk of instances of drug addiction, is often largely ineffective.

    Some would, entirely understandably, question anecdotal evidence such as that. However, I think if anything, such examples tend to sugar coat how bad the situation actually was.

    Philip K Dick, the brilliant Californian author of Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep from which the movie Blade Runner was derived, would write the semi-autobiographical drug use centered novel A Scanner Darkly in 1977. At the end of the book he writes a dedication to the friends he has lost to drug addiction and names names and specifics. The list is only partial.

    I would suggest the 1960's drug culture subtly promoted at the time by the corporate mass media did comparable damage in it's way to the Baby Boomers as WWI did to it's generation of young people. To paraphrase the German author Erich Remarque:

    'Though the Baby Boomer generation in many instances may have escaped personal drug use, the drug culture destroyed them even so.'


    'This has been a novel about some people who were punished entirely too much for what they did. They wanted to have a good time, but they were like children playing in the street...I loved them all. Here is the list, to whom I dedicate my love:

    To Gaylene deceased
    To Ray deceased
    To Francy permanent psychosis
    To Kathy permanent brain damage
    To Jim deceased
    To Val massive permanent brain damage
    To Nancy permanent psychosis
    To Joanne permanent brain damage
    To Maren deceased
    To Nick deceased
    To Terry deceased
    To Dennis deceased
    To Phil permanent pancreatic damage
    To Sue permanent vascular damage
    To Jerri permanent psychosis and vascular damage

    . . . and so forth.
    In Memoriam.

    These were comrades whom I had; there are no better. They remain in my mind, and the enemy will never be forgiven. The "enemy" was their mistake in playing. Let them all play again, in some other way, and let them be happy.'
     

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Scanner_Darkly

    https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/1527439-a-scanner-darkly

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synanon

    Replies: @Peter D. Bredon, @Jim Don Bob

    Don’t forget the premier episode of the revived Dragnet: 1967: “The LSD Story” featuring Blue Boy.

    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0565680/?ref_=ttep_ep1

  143. @Cato
    @Emil Nikola Richard


    Cato you are lucky to be an old fart. Try that now and most of what is available is chicks with dicks.
     
    In those days, LSD, etc., in every gathering there would be a woman or even women that would appear to be a kind of Elvan princess. When I look at videos of psytrance concerts, it seems that the same kind of stereotyping persists. Now, jaded as I have become, I think it a tragedy that an Elvan princess should have submitted to such degradation.

    It might be of interest to know that the country, in the 1970s, where one was in the greatest danger of inadvertently ending up with a chick with a dick was El Salvador. I had two friends who picked up what they thought were extremely attractive women, and discovered, after some passionate moments, that information asymmetry prevailed.

    Replies: @Peter D. Bredon

    Someone should study this. Does this pass from country to country as a fad, or is the CIA trying it out in various places? Why El Salvador, then apparently Thailand? In the Ed Wood film, Bunny Breckenridge goes to Mexico for a sex change operation, though that was pioneered in Denmark, as per Ed’s Glen or Glenda inspiration. As I said, does the CIA or whoever try this stuff out in the 3rd world, then bring it over the the US and Europe as planned?

  144. @Luke Lea
    @Dave Pinsen

    That might have been me. In 1967 I shared a five bedroom house on Rivoli Street with four other recent Reed graduates, my share of the rent being $30 a month, which I paid for with a 45 minute a day job cleaning up a doctor's office half an hour away by car. Total income: $100 a month. My car, by the way, happened to be an 1956 Ford convertible which I bought in Berkeley in 1964 for $50. You could live cheap back then, even in San Francisco.

    I wasn't a hippy, by the way. I was a hippy anthropologist

    Replies: @James J O'Meara, @Curle, @Obstinate Cymric

    Reed, huh?

    That place has occupied an exaggerated place in my imagination for years for no particular reason. I always imagine either some academic version of The Blithedale Romance (I’m not sure why) or some variation on an hippie or west German commune. I’d be curious to know what it’s really like?

  145. anonymous[105] • Disclaimer says:

    And while some of that bonking was spontaneous, CIA tried to hijack it for their own purposes of elite and mass control. The crucial new information to be added is that Manson turns out to be a proto-Epstein.

    You’ve got to bounce Didion’s insight off Tom O’Neil’s Chaos, which produces forensic-grade documentary evidence linking Manson with illegal domestic CIA agents Reeve Whitson, Jolly West, and Sidney Gottlieb. And Gottlieb’s involvement links CIA’s child exploitation and trafficking racket to their MK-ULTRA and Artichoke mind-control efforts.

    O’Neil’s with-coauthor got him to tack on a bullshit afterword suggesting all kinds of uncertainty. But O’Neil’s evidence speaks for itself.

    • Replies: @Alden
    @anonymous

    Part of the reason Manson collected his pretty girls was to entice music industry guys. It worked. Within days of arrival in LA he had them hitchhiking in Malibu where so many entertainment men lived. Cheaper than club and venue fees and competition with other girls.

    He “ wanna come to my place and get high?”
    She “sure, but you come to my place. My girl friends like two somes and we got some better drugs”
    He “ where’s your place?”

    Manson was a pimp who used his girls to weasel his way into the music industry.

    , @Paperback Writer
    @anonymous


    You’ve got to bounce Didion’s insight off Tom O’Neil’s Chaos, which produces forensic-grade documentary evidence linking Manson with illegal domestic CIA agents Reeve Whitson, Jolly West, and Sidney Gottlieb. And Gottlieb’s involvement links CIA’s child exploitation and trafficking racket to their MK-ULTRA and Artichoke mind-control efforts.
     
    The problem with the book Chaos is that it *is* chaos. It's the worst-written book I ever read. But it's a gold mine of information. From that I learned about MK-Ultra and Gottlieb. Read Poisoner-in-Chief by Stephen Kinzer. It's rather sedately written but that increases the effect. It's devastating.
  146. @prosa123
    @Muggles

    That’s why every American by the time they’re 20 knows most of the street names and locales in Manhattan, Queens, Brooklyn (but not the Bronx, yet) and no one knows the name of any other street in America except maybe, just maybe, the street they live on.

    As most of the streets and avenues in those three boroughs are numbered rather than named, that doesn't mean much. Ask a person living elsewhere in the country and not particularly familiar with NYC to list some named Manhattan thoroughfares and you'll get Broadway,* Park Avenue, Madison Avenue, Wall Street, and, well, not much else. In Queens and Brooklyn, possibly nothing.

    * even most NYC residents think Broadway is the city's longest street, but they're wrong. It's actually Hylan Boulevard on Staten Island

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @D. K., @Peter D. Bredon

    I think the real factor is that NYC streets have become the shorthand names for industries or social groups (metonyms?) Of the ones you list,

    Broadway: musical theatre
    Park Avenue,: rich folks
    Madison Avenue: advertising (hence “Mad Men”)
    Wall Street (stocks or finance, probably the first example, going back to the 1700s)

    Less well known;

    Seventh Ave. (fashion, perhaps better known since Sex & the City)
    East 60s (if you read Tom Wolfe)
    The Bowery (bums, aka “the homeless”, although now they’re everywhere, except the East 60s).

    In the same way, people think of real estate terms like Greenwich Village, Soho, Meatpacking District, UWS, etc. but have no clear idea of where these places are. The Cinema Sins guy on YouTube points out that the geography of NYC in Die Hard With a Vengeance is entirely surrealistic, despite being filmed on location.

    “I don’t know how good your geography is”; Bert Cooper explains New York real estate and social class to Don Draper, from rural Pennsylvania.

    3:34 “New York City is a marvelous machine, filled with gears and springs, tightly wound, like a watch.”

  147. @James J O'Meara
    @Luke Lea

    I have the sense that a lot of the postwar and otherwise Beats seem to have spent a lot of time going from one "menial" job to another, quitting when bored or having made enough to live on for a few months, filling in the rest of the time writing. Gary Snyder, for example, spent time as a fire watcher on some mountain, Kesey worked in a mental institution, Dean Moriarty delivering cars by driving them across country (with non-driver Kerouac riding shotgun), Alex Trocchi as a watchman on a NYC barge, etc.

    Obviously all this was grist for the writing mill, as you can see. Living on grants or a trust fund seems lame by comparison.

    The GI Bill was another source of income (Donleavy), as was enlisting in the merchant marine (Ginsburg, Kerouac).

    Burroughs was an outlier, with his family trust fund, but even he felt the need to spend time working: exterminator, sharecropper, etc.

    The steady outsourcing, automation and simple elimination of such jobs must have had bad consequences even for literature, to say nothing of the working class itself.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    The author’s bio on a mid-Century novel tried to list as many manual labor jobs as possible: the novelist with the most had a leg up on the competition.

    • Replies: @Curle
    @Steve Sailer

    Maybe this is the reason my favorites are from another era or didn’t fit this description (Updike - writer); (O’Hara - newspaperman).

  148. @Nicholas Stix
    Joan Didion wrote a long, eloquent essay for The New York Review of Books in 1991, in which she came out as the first high-profile White proponent of the Central Park Five Hoax.

    She gave eloquence a band name.

    Replies: @Sean, @Jim Don Bob

    NR has some good JD links: https://www.nationalreview.com/2021/12/joan-didion-the-national-review-years/

    Her Central Park Five story is long and full of what life was like in the late 80s in NYC. She is skeptical of their guilt.

  149. @Triteleia Laxa
    @Rob

    Hallucinogenic toads, LSD, Ayahuasca and Mushrooms are just like having a cup of coffee for me, and actually my friend too. It isn't that we don't see stuff on them. It is that it makes no difference.

    Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican, @Rob

    You all ain’t hitting the good stuff:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10257945/Finnish-soldier-accidentally-overdosed-Nazi-meth-pills-World-War-2-battle.html

    Aimo Koivunen (left), a Finnish soldier, was fleeing Soviets troops during a scouting mission in 1944 when he accidentally took his whole squad’s supply of Nazi meth pills (inset) – sparking a two-week trip.

    During that time, Aimo skiied (ski soldiers pictured, right) some 250 miles around the Arctic Circle while hallucinating and suffering blackouts, at one point fighting a wolverine that turned out to be a tree branch and talking to old friends who weren’t there.

    He ended up stumbling into an abandoned German camp that had been booby-trapped, stepping on a land mine that blew his right foot off, and then setting off another bomb that blew most of his clothes away. He was eventually found, two weeks after disappearing, badly wounded, half-naked and eating a raw bird in a ditch.

    He was taken to hospital where medics found his heart rate was more than double what it should be, but survived and died in 1989 at the age of 71.

  150. @Steve Sailer
    @James J O'Meara

    The author's bio on a mid-Century novel tried to list as many manual labor jobs as possible: the novelist with the most had a leg up on the competition.

    Replies: @Curle

    Maybe this is the reason my favorites are from another era or didn’t fit this description (Updike – writer); (O’Hara – newspaperman).

  151. @Triteleia Laxa
    @Rob

    Hallucinogenic toads, LSD, Ayahuasca and Mushrooms are just like having a cup of coffee for me, and actually my friend too. It isn't that we don't see stuff on them. It is that it makes no difference.

    Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican, @Rob

    No offense, I find that hard to believe. Have you tried any psychedelics from the same batch with other people? Did your friends trip, but you didn’t?

    For everyone else, if you take LSD within 3(?) days of your last trip, it won’t do anything. I find that rather amazing too, tbh

    Just out of curiosity, do you remember your dreams?

    • Replies: @Triteleia Laxa
    @Rob

    Yes, I tried plenty of them with plenty of other people on plenty of occasions.

    My dreams, waking state and hallucinogens are all very similar. This means that it is easy for me to remember my dreams as there is little change in mental state.

    I often wonder if other people would find my waking state very dreamlike or hallucinogenic, but they usually seem much less rational and consistent than I do, which is kind of a contradiction.

    Replies: @Rob

  152. @Art Deco
    @Known Fact

    Disagree. Housing was expensive in Honolulu. A man I knew who was living there ca. 1974 estimated the price of a detached house around Honolulu was > 2x what a comparable house would cost in Rochester. Affluent people commonly lived in condominiums rather than detached housing. Have you seen photographs of the building the Dunhams lived in the Beretania section of the city? She'd had a satisfactory executive position at the Bank of Hawaii, and the place they were living was frankly depressing.

    Replies: @Curle

    “ Affluent people commonly lived in condominiums rather than detached housing.”

    Vast majority of affluent families living in Hono. in the ‘70s lived in detached housing. There were singles and retirees and the occasional family living in a large attached condo. Yes, prices were elevated compared to mainland.

  153. @James J O'Meara
    @Almost Missouri

    I propose we start measuring danger in units of "Baldwin."

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

    Yeah, Wiki says Baldwin worked on 90 films, presumably each with one cinematographer, so that makes a “Baldwin Risk Unit” equal to a 1.1% chance of instant death.

    OTOH, IMDB gives him 24 producer credits, so by the producer standard a BRU is 4%. Producer credits include TV. Do TV shows have cinematographers if it is not meant for cinema? I don’t know. I guess so. If so, then IMDB gives Baldwin 145 total acting credits, making the acting BRU about 0.7%.

    Anyway, the BRU is less than the Russian Roulette risk unit of 17%.

    Next controversy: what is the risk unit of mRNA “vaccines”? Side effects seem to be orders of magnitude more common than with traditional vaccines, like maybe 1-in-1000 instead of 1-in-1,000,000. So edging up into BRU territory.

    • Replies: @LP5
    @Almost Missouri


    “Baldwin Risk Unit”
     
    Or Baldwin Risk Opportunity.
  154. @Right_On
    @houston 1992

    Overall, it seems so dangerous to me because, in our evolutionary history, we never encountered LSD

    To be clear, I'd only advise someone to take his first trip outdoors in the sunshine if that someone had already decided for himself that he was going to sample the chemical.

    Peter Hitchens keeps banging the drum about the relationship between MJ use and schizophrenia

    I agree with Hitchens! The thing about top-end psychedelics, like mescaline, is that most people only try them once in a blue moon; with cannabis, people get into the habit of smoking every single day, so the mind-brain-body circuits never get a chance to re-set.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

    advise someone to take his first trip outdoors in the sunshine

    Jaysus dude, dilating your pupils for hours in outdoor sunshine sounds like a recipe for permanent retina damage.

    Leaving aside the occasional brain damage and unintentional suicides.

    • Agree: houston 1992
  155. @Known Fact

    Disagree. Housing was expensive in Honolulu. A man I knew who was living there ca. 1974 estimated the price of a detached house around Honolulu was > 2x what a comparable house would cost in Rochester.
     
    Who said anything about "housing" -- the subculture depicted here was more about people "crashing" in the cheapest accommodations or living on the streets. Of course Hawaii is expensive for normal residents but the edges of American society mostly drift toward mild climates, not Rochester.

    The 12-year run of 5-0 traces the state's meteoric growth and cultural change so things probably did become more costly and affluent as you describe. The hippies running wild through the late 60s/early 70s episodes thinned out and by 1979 the best episode of a fading show featured the mob muscling in on the disco business!

    Replies: @Art Deco

    Who said anything about “housing” — the subculture depicted here was more about people “crashing” in the cheapest accommodations or living on the streets.

    Only a tiny minority in this country are vagrants (< 0.25%). People pay rent.

    The 12-year run of 5-0 traces the state’s meteoric growth and cultural change so things probably did become more costly and affluent as you describe.

    The explosive growth in population occurred between 1896 and 1930. Hawaii had above average rates of population growth from about 1930 to about 1990. During the period in question (1960-80), their growth rate was middling for a western state.

  156. @Rob
    @Triteleia Laxa

    No offense, I find that hard to believe. Have you tried any psychedelics from the same batch with other people? Did your friends trip, but you didn’t?

    For everyone else, if you take LSD within 3(?) days of your last trip, it won’t do anything. I find that rather amazing too, tbh

    Just out of curiosity, do you remember your dreams?

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa

    Yes, I tried plenty of them with plenty of other people on plenty of occasions.

    My dreams, waking state and hallucinogens are all very similar. This means that it is easy for me to remember my dreams as there is little change in mental state.

    I often wonder if other people would find my waking state very dreamlike or hallucinogenic, but they usually seem much less rational and consistent than I do, which is kind of a contradiction.

    • Replies: @Rob
    @Triteleia Laxa

    I cannot imagine that at all. Do you have an easy/hard time “getting” other people? Are you extremely creative and good at visuospatial stuff? That’s a rare combo.

    Sorry to treat you like a science project.

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa

  157. @Almost Missouri
    @Feryl

    Can't remember where I heard/read it, but there was reasonably plausible case that Manson had a side gig supplying pliable young women (from his "family", presumably) to influential people in important social groups for parties/events/personal use/whatever. So yeah, authorities weren't eager to break up that pipeline unnecessarily, in this telling. Which is to say, it wasn't so much that he was an informant, but conversely that they didn't want the information he knew to become public. Plus they probably liked his product. Fortunately for them, Manson was too insane to use what he knew to extort his way to freedom.

    Replies: @Feryl, @Alden

    Yes, Charlie had been a pimp for years. Then the 60’s happened, a huge rush of young vulnerable girls and pro-drug culture which as Steve says provided fodder for middle aged sleaze bags. But this was all desperately covered up by the authorities who made Manson out to be a “hippie”cult guru with insane followers

  158. @Almost Missouri
    @James J O'Meara

    Yeah, Wiki says Baldwin worked on 90 films, presumably each with one cinematographer, so that makes a "Baldwin Risk Unit" equal to a 1.1% chance of instant death.

    OTOH, IMDB gives him 24 producer credits, so by the producer standard a BRU is 4%. Producer credits include TV. Do TV shows have cinematographers if it is not meant for cinema? I don't know. I guess so. If so, then IMDB gives Baldwin 145 total acting credits, making the acting BRU about 0.7%.

    Anyway, the BRU is less than the Russian Roulette risk unit of 17%.

    Next controversy: what is the risk unit of mRNA "vaccines"? Side effects seem to be orders of magnitude more common than with traditional vaccines, like maybe 1-in-1000 instead of 1-in-1,000,000. So edging up into BRU territory.

    Replies: @LP5

    “Baldwin Risk Unit”

    Or Baldwin Risk Opportunity.

  159. @Paperback Writer
    @Reg Cæsar

    Not really - Jews and Protestants were the permissive ones.

    I was a bit young for the Haight scene during the actual heyday, but I hung around the refugees in the Bay Area in the 70s. My impression is that it was quite cheap. You'd squat, panhandle, dumpster dive, etc. The biggest expense was drugs. Also Bill Graham didn't allow anyone to get into the Fillmore without a ticket, for which you had to pay cold, hard, cash.

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob

    I worked as an usher at the Fillmore East for a few years, and yes, Bill Graham didn’t take s**t from anybody.

    One night I was taking tickets at the door, and this belligerent guy who had left tried to get back in. This was not allowed – you left, and you left for good. I thought I was about to get my scrawny ass kicked when a couple of the big guys who worked outside came to my rescue. They carried dog chains and were quite persuasive.

    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
    @Jim Don Bob

    Wow! Mad respect! I mean, I hated Graham*, and I hate 60s mythology, but I respect anyone who participated in that scene, and who knew Graham - so I guess I, too, am a 60s mythologizer.

    *for personal reasons that I'd prefer not to divulge here.

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob

    , @Alden
    @Jim Don Bob

    Most of the guys who worked security and the door and wore plain clothes and mixed with the crowd alert for trouble at the original Fillmore west auditorium in San Francisco were very big mean and anti black criminal city police and county sheriffs.

    Those were the good old days when cops could give black criminals and thugs what they deserved. The SFPD also had a lot of unmarked cars and regular patrol cops in plain clothes patrolling for blocks around to keep the audience and their cars safe. Bill Graham paid for all the government police as well as very tough private security.

    The very very heavy security was necessary because the auditorium was right in the middle of Fillmore district. At the time one of the worst criminal black ghettos in the Bay Area. The building had been unused for a while because concert producers knew it was such a dangerous-neighborhood no Whites would come to the events. I don’t think there was a parking lot. So concert goers had to park all over and walk through one of the most dangerous neighborhoods in the state. What Graham saved on rent he had to pay a lot more in security.

    About 10 years later gays began gentrifying the area. It was very successful. But what with BLM Anti fa and summer of Floyd, the black criminals not only crossed Geary and California but have even crossed Broadway. Sacramento and even Pacific sts They’re getting close to Feinstein’s and Pelosi’s palaces. 2 frail old ladies and their husbands. Hmmmmm

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

  160. @S
    @Almost Missouri


    The 1-in-20 figure stuck with me because it was the only time I’ve ever heard anyone attempt to quantify the hazards of hallucinogens. I think it was in the Tom Wolfe book...But we don’t hear the contra- case because of survivorship bias: those who mistakenly believed they could fly or who became insane beyond coherence aren’t making any public argument.
     
    That's a good point, and, an interesting question.

    Some of the old (somewhat reality based) TV series from circa 1968 give anecdotal hints of the real time situation. Adam 12, for instance, had an episode from that time where a kid was found in a park in a state of drug induced psychosis, and of course, many of the episodes involved drug possession. Hawaii 5-0 had an episode which featured a young 17-18 year old woman, thinking she could fly, jump off a cliff to her death. McGarrett, in the same episode, visits a Hawaii hospital ward with drug addicted people who have basically lost their minds.

    The George Lucas film of circa 1969-70 THX-1138 has a mass crowd scene (literally it appears to be thousands) of young bald people. These were extras Lucas had hired on the cheap from Synanon, a drug addiction program. These extras were almost all young Euro (ie 'White') California men and women in their late teens or early 20's who were drug addicts. Unfortunately, rehab in the bulk of instances of drug addiction, is often largely ineffective.

    Some would, entirely understandably, question anecdotal evidence such as that. However, I think if anything, such examples tend to sugar coat how bad the situation actually was.

    Philip K Dick, the brilliant Californian author of Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep from which the movie Blade Runner was derived, would write the semi-autobiographical drug use centered novel A Scanner Darkly in 1977. At the end of the book he writes a dedication to the friends he has lost to drug addiction and names names and specifics. The list is only partial.

    I would suggest the 1960's drug culture subtly promoted at the time by the corporate mass media did comparable damage in it's way to the Baby Boomers as WWI did to it's generation of young people. To paraphrase the German author Erich Remarque:

    'Though the Baby Boomer generation in many instances may have escaped personal drug use, the drug culture destroyed them even so.'


    'This has been a novel about some people who were punished entirely too much for what they did. They wanted to have a good time, but they were like children playing in the street...I loved them all. Here is the list, to whom I dedicate my love:

    To Gaylene deceased
    To Ray deceased
    To Francy permanent psychosis
    To Kathy permanent brain damage
    To Jim deceased
    To Val massive permanent brain damage
    To Nancy permanent psychosis
    To Joanne permanent brain damage
    To Maren deceased
    To Nick deceased
    To Terry deceased
    To Dennis deceased
    To Phil permanent pancreatic damage
    To Sue permanent vascular damage
    To Jerri permanent psychosis and vascular damage

    . . . and so forth.
    In Memoriam.

    These were comrades whom I had; there are no better. They remain in my mind, and the enemy will never be forgiven. The "enemy" was their mistake in playing. Let them all play again, in some other way, and let them be happy.'
     

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Scanner_Darkly

    https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/1527439-a-scanner-darkly

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synanon

    Replies: @Peter D. Bredon, @Jim Don Bob

    A Scanner Darkly is a scary book and the movie is pretty faithful to the book.

    • Thanks: S
  161. @Jim Don Bob
    @Paperback Writer

    I worked as an usher at the Fillmore East for a few years, and yes, Bill Graham didn't take s**t from anybody.

    One night I was taking tickets at the door, and this belligerent guy who had left tried to get back in. This was not allowed - you left, and you left for good. I thought I was about to get my scrawny ass kicked when a couple of the big guys who worked outside came to my rescue. They carried dog chains and were quite persuasive.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer, @Alden

    Wow! Mad respect! I mean, I hated Graham*, and I hate 60s mythology, but I respect anyone who participated in that scene, and who knew Graham – so I guess I, too, am a 60s mythologizer.

    *for personal reasons that I’d prefer not to divulge here.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    @Paperback Writer

    As long as I am telling tales on myself, one time between shows at the Fillmore East, I smoked some dope with some guys in the balcony. It must have been laced with something (maybe PCP?) because I was higher than I'd ever been and paranoid too. My job that night was guarding the backstage entrance where I told everyone, No you can't go back stage even if you are the guitar player's mother. This was complicated by the fact that I was about 2o feet to the right of the stage and it was really loud. To top it off, the 3 train subway trip back home took 2 1/2 hours and I didn't get to bed until almost 4.

    Later that year I was supposed to meet my roommate at the park and we were gonna take acid. I took two tabs at 8am on an empty stomach and went to the park. Roomie was busy screwing his GF and never showed. I knew I was in trouble when the trees started swaying violently and headed home. One of my friends gave me some Thorazine and spent the day with me. I have some vivid memories of that day.

    My drug usage tapered off as I realized me and them didn't get along. A couple martinis or glasses of Jameson are my drug of choice today.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

  162. @Paperback Writer
    @Jim Don Bob

    Wow! Mad respect! I mean, I hated Graham*, and I hate 60s mythology, but I respect anyone who participated in that scene, and who knew Graham - so I guess I, too, am a 60s mythologizer.

    *for personal reasons that I'd prefer not to divulge here.

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob

    As long as I am telling tales on myself, one time between shows at the Fillmore East, I smoked some dope with some guys in the balcony. It must have been laced with something (maybe PCP?) because I was higher than I’d ever been and paranoid too. My job that night was guarding the backstage entrance where I told everyone, No you can’t go back stage even if you are the guitar player’s mother. This was complicated by the fact that I was about 2o feet to the right of the stage and it was really loud. To top it off, the 3 train subway trip back home took 2 1/2 hours and I didn’t get to bed until almost 4.

    Later that year I was supposed to meet my roommate at the park and we were gonna take acid. I took two tabs at 8am on an empty stomach and went to the park. Roomie was busy screwing his GF and never showed. I knew I was in trouble when the trees started swaying violently and headed home. One of my friends gave me some Thorazine and spent the day with me. I have some vivid memories of that day.

    My drug usage tapered off as I realized me and them didn’t get along. A couple martinis or glasses of Jameson are my drug of choice today.

    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
    @Jim Don Bob

    For some reason, I misread your previous comment as "Fillmore West." Then I read #3 train in this comment and realized my mistake. That doesn't matter except that I went to a bunch of concerts at the East (not the West), so I can really visualize what you're talking about.

    I enjoy hearing 60s stories while also being relieved that I was a mite too young to partake of the full monty. I smoked a few herbs & spices at concerts but didn't drop or snort anything. In retrospect, it was both daring (on the subway at 2:00 a.m.? do kids do that nowadays) and innocent.

    Of course, even though I wasn't heavily into LSD, we all knew not to drop on an empty stomach so - more mad respect!!

    (If you want to read about the history of LSD in the US, check out Poisoner-in-Chief by Stephen Kinzer. An eye-opener.)

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob, @Curle

  163. the hippie chicks pouring off the Greyhound buses in San Francisco in 1967 tended to be working class runaways from broken homes getting away from mom and her boyfriend, without recognizing that worse is in the waiting for them in San Francisco.

    I believe it was Squeaky Fromme, who in 1967, and in complete despair and frustration after dropping out of college and being tossed out of the family home, would sit down on a Venice Beach curb, and then meet Charles Manson.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @S

    Squeaky Fromme was the problem child of an intact professional-managerial class family. The frustration and despair were those of her mother and father.

    Replies: @S

    , @Paperback Writer
    @S

    Why do you disagree w/Art Deco? Her father was an aeronautical engineer, her mother a SAHM. He's right in this case.

    Also Leslie Van Houten - from a perfectly normal family. She was a pretty homecoming queen.

    Replies: @AceDeuce

  164. @R.G. Camara
    Saddest part (for many PUA guys, as I was once one) is how, in retrospect, the 60's could have only happened in a pre-1965 immigration world living off the prosperity and safety of America post-ww2 combined with first-blush feminism's "sexual openness" push and a population of young, slim, attractive, scantily-dressed white women who were far more feminine and less slutty than later generations, regardless of how many partners a girl racked up during that time.

    In other words, the 60's could only happen once.

    It is not a wonder so many old hippie dudes lionize the period and never stopped living in it. As Dennis Miller joked once, you could be a hairy awkward dude who hadn't washed in a week and living on the streets and some hot 21 year old midwestern blond would come up to you and ask, "Nice sandals. Wanna fuck?"

    But if you missed it, you missed it forever.

    It's really not a wonder Quentin Tarantino made such an idealized picture out of it, having missed the era himself by being a child.

    Replies: @BenjaminL, @AndrewR, @New Dealer

    I lived in the glorious turn from the 60s to the 70s. I was at an event in the late 90s where Kesey was ranting, “They’re pretending that the 60s never happened!”

  165. It’s amazing how big the problem of teenage runaways was back then for about 10 years. The press paid only little attention, and even conservative pundits and social scientists ignored the problem.

  166. @Jim Don Bob
    @Paperback Writer

    I worked as an usher at the Fillmore East for a few years, and yes, Bill Graham didn't take s**t from anybody.

    One night I was taking tickets at the door, and this belligerent guy who had left tried to get back in. This was not allowed - you left, and you left for good. I thought I was about to get my scrawny ass kicked when a couple of the big guys who worked outside came to my rescue. They carried dog chains and were quite persuasive.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer, @Alden

    Most of the guys who worked security and the door and wore plain clothes and mixed with the crowd alert for trouble at the original Fillmore west auditorium in San Francisco were very big mean and anti black criminal city police and county sheriffs.

    Those were the good old days when cops could give black criminals and thugs what they deserved. The SFPD also had a lot of unmarked cars and regular patrol cops in plain clothes patrolling for blocks around to keep the audience and their cars safe. Bill Graham paid for all the government police as well as very tough private security.

    The very very heavy security was necessary because the auditorium was right in the middle of Fillmore district. At the time one of the worst criminal black ghettos in the Bay Area. The building had been unused for a while because concert producers knew it was such a dangerous-neighborhood no Whites would come to the events. I don’t think there was a parking lot. So concert goers had to park all over and walk through one of the most dangerous neighborhoods in the state. What Graham saved on rent he had to pay a lot more in security.

    About 10 years later gays began gentrifying the area. It was very successful. But what with BLM Anti fa and summer of Floyd, the black criminals not only crossed Geary and California but have even crossed Broadway. Sacramento and even Pacific sts They’re getting close to Feinstein’s and Pelosi’s palaces. 2 frail old ladies and their husbands. Hmmmmm

    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
    @Alden


    Most of the guys who worked security and the door and wore plain clothes and mixed with the crowd alert for trouble at the original Fillmore west auditorium in San Francisco were very big mean and anti black criminal city police and county sheriffs.

     

    Thanks. I would love to know what Graham's true racial attitudes were. I knew he didn't buy the "peace love and grass" bullshit. He was a cold, hard, cynical capitalist. But I'm sure he had some attitudes that would have gotten him cancelled by 2020.
  167. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    "most discussions of San Francisco’s Summer of Love start with various intellectuals like Aldous Huxley, Timothy Leary, and Ken Kesey trying out LSD."

    Aldous Huxley couldn't have tried LSD in 1967, unless it was from the netherworld.

    Aldous Huxley, along with C.S. Lewis, and John F. Kennedy, all died on November 22, 1963, nearly four years prior to the Summer of Love.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @prosa123, @The Plutonium Kid, @SunBakedSuburb, @Alden

    I, husband and our 6 siblings were right in the middle of it all. We should write a history of it. From the perspectives of the natives. Husband brothers and brothers in law all had friends who grew their hair long enough to pass as hippies and went to Haight-Ashbury to take advantage of the hippy girls. Fact check Ms Didion Most were not working class runaways. Most were prosperous middle class jews. Using sex drugs and rock and roll to seduce the youth of America to the revolution which succeeded as intended.

    The whole Haight-Ashbury thing was a giant gentrification keep the blacks out one of the most beautiful pre 1906? earthquake grand and glorious Victorian housing stocks in the country. When I write grand and glorious I don’t just mean the mansions. I mean even the modest 2 bedroom flats better designed better proportions and much easier to keep tidy and to decorate than anything built after 1945. . Closing down the by then black horror show Polytechnic High School was also designed to spread the Fillmore ghetto thugs all over town and keep them from turning Haight-Ashbury into as horrible a ghetto as the other black neighborhoods in the city.

    It was a politician chamber of commerce great powerful families and real estate interests that created the entire Haight-Ashbury hippy thing.

    And it worked. Saved Haight-Ashbury. lower Pacific Heights, inner Richmond , Masonic and part of Fillmore from the Black Plague

    Now it looks as though the Black Plague is taking back the parts of the city the hippies the gays and gentrification saved from the plague 50 years ago. Too bad so sad.

    And the so called conservative Chinese do absolute nothing about it but bloc vote for London Breed , Jewish gays and those insane radical Asian and Hispanic women in the school board.

    • Thanks: JMcG
  168. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    "Who are these girls? Didion’s answer was that the hippie chicks pouring off the Greyhound buses in San Francisco in 1967 tended to be working class runaways from broken homes getting away from mom and her boyfriend, without recognizing that worse is in the waiting for them in San Francisco."

    "Friday morning at 9:00 she is far away./Waiting to keep the appointment she made/Meeting a man from the motor trade/She is having fun/Fun is the one thing that money can't buy..."---from the Beatles' 'She's Leaving Home', ironicallly released at the start of the Summer of Love.

    Replies: @AceDeuce, @Mike Tre, @Alden

    Didion had no idea who the hippie girls were. Complete ignorance like almost everyone who write about it. From far away.

    I read 2 chapters of a Didion book. Borrring can’t remember a thing about it.

  169. @anonymous
    And while some of that bonking was spontaneous, CIA tried to hijack it for their own purposes of elite and mass control. The crucial new information to be added is that Manson turns out to be a proto-Epstein.

    You've got to bounce Didion's insight off Tom O'Neil's Chaos, which produces forensic-grade documentary evidence linking Manson with illegal domestic CIA agents Reeve Whitson, Jolly West, and Sidney Gottlieb. And Gottlieb's involvement links CIA's child exploitation and trafficking racket to their MK-ULTRA and Artichoke mind-control efforts.

    O'Neil's with-coauthor got him to tack on a bullshit afterword suggesting all kinds of uncertainty. But O'Neil's evidence speaks for itself.

    Replies: @Alden, @Paperback Writer

    Part of the reason Manson collected his pretty girls was to entice music industry guys. It worked. Within days of arrival in LA he had them hitchhiking in Malibu where so many entertainment men lived. Cheaper than club and venue fees and competition with other girls.

    He “ wanna come to my place and get high?”
    She “sure, but you come to my place. My girl friends like two somes and we got some better drugs”
    He “ where’s your place?”

    Manson was a pimp who used his girls to weasel his way into the music industry.

  170. @Triteleia Laxa
    @Rob

    Yes, I tried plenty of them with plenty of other people on plenty of occasions.

    My dreams, waking state and hallucinogens are all very similar. This means that it is easy for me to remember my dreams as there is little change in mental state.

    I often wonder if other people would find my waking state very dreamlike or hallucinogenic, but they usually seem much less rational and consistent than I do, which is kind of a contradiction.

    Replies: @Rob

    I cannot imagine that at all. Do you have an easy/hard time “getting” other people? Are you extremely creative and good at visuospatial stuff? That’s a rare combo.

    Sorry to treat you like a science project.

    • Replies: @Triteleia Laxa
    @Rob

    Exceptionally easy to "get" people, especially for them to feel connected. Similar at visualisation, but poor at physically manifesting such things, like when drawing. The latter may be a lack of talent or just motivation. If you can focus in every and any direction, it can be tricky to know which way to look.

  171. @Almost Missouri
    @Feryl

    Can't remember where I heard/read it, but there was reasonably plausible case that Manson had a side gig supplying pliable young women (from his "family", presumably) to influential people in important social groups for parties/events/personal use/whatever. So yeah, authorities weren't eager to break up that pipeline unnecessarily, in this telling. Which is to say, it wasn't so much that he was an informant, but conversely that they didn't want the information he knew to become public. Plus they probably liked his product. Fortunately for them, Manson was too insane to use what he knew to extort his way to freedom.

    Replies: @Feryl, @Alden

    I had the impression the Manson girls went after only young musicians. They were all pretty, some beauties but too unkempt badly dressed and drug addled to appeal to any but the dirty unkempt drug addled music crowd.

    With 10 to 20 pretty girls an ordinary pimp and the girls would have made enough money for functional cars clean clothes and rent a normal place to live, not squatting in an old movie set out in the desert.

    We were right there in the middle of the San Francisco thing. To me, it was as orchestrated as the tranny movement of today. Or gay marriage 15 years ago. What does the satanic liberal central committee have next for us after covid hoax?

    • Thanks: Almost Missouri
  172. @Jim Don Bob
    @Paperback Writer

    As long as I am telling tales on myself, one time between shows at the Fillmore East, I smoked some dope with some guys in the balcony. It must have been laced with something (maybe PCP?) because I was higher than I'd ever been and paranoid too. My job that night was guarding the backstage entrance where I told everyone, No you can't go back stage even if you are the guitar player's mother. This was complicated by the fact that I was about 2o feet to the right of the stage and it was really loud. To top it off, the 3 train subway trip back home took 2 1/2 hours and I didn't get to bed until almost 4.

    Later that year I was supposed to meet my roommate at the park and we were gonna take acid. I took two tabs at 8am on an empty stomach and went to the park. Roomie was busy screwing his GF and never showed. I knew I was in trouble when the trees started swaying violently and headed home. One of my friends gave me some Thorazine and spent the day with me. I have some vivid memories of that day.

    My drug usage tapered off as I realized me and them didn't get along. A couple martinis or glasses of Jameson are my drug of choice today.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

    For some reason, I misread your previous comment as “Fillmore West.” Then I read #3 train in this comment and realized my mistake. That doesn’t matter except that I went to a bunch of concerts at the East (not the West), so I can really visualize what you’re talking about.

    I enjoy hearing 60s stories while also being relieved that I was a mite too young to partake of the full monty. I smoked a few herbs & spices at concerts but didn’t drop or snort anything. In retrospect, it was both daring (on the subway at 2:00 a.m.? do kids do that nowadays) and innocent.

    Of course, even though I wasn’t heavily into LSD, we all knew not to drop on an empty stomach so – more mad respect!!

    (If you want to read about the history of LSD in the US, check out Poisoner-in-Chief by Stephen Kinzer. An eye-opener.)

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    @Paperback Writer

    Here's one more Fillmore East story. The Who were on stage doing Quadrophenia when the building next door caught fire. A cop ran on stage and Roger Daltry punched him. Everything got sorted out, the place was evacuated and no one was hurt.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

    , @Curle
    @Paperback Writer

    You seem to be an late Boomer? Thus I’m thrown off by your use of ‘mad respect’, a form of expression I associate with 2010s and later and cohorts of people reaching adulthood in those years?

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

  173. @Alden
    @Jim Don Bob

    Most of the guys who worked security and the door and wore plain clothes and mixed with the crowd alert for trouble at the original Fillmore west auditorium in San Francisco were very big mean and anti black criminal city police and county sheriffs.

    Those were the good old days when cops could give black criminals and thugs what they deserved. The SFPD also had a lot of unmarked cars and regular patrol cops in plain clothes patrolling for blocks around to keep the audience and their cars safe. Bill Graham paid for all the government police as well as very tough private security.

    The very very heavy security was necessary because the auditorium was right in the middle of Fillmore district. At the time one of the worst criminal black ghettos in the Bay Area. The building had been unused for a while because concert producers knew it was such a dangerous-neighborhood no Whites would come to the events. I don’t think there was a parking lot. So concert goers had to park all over and walk through one of the most dangerous neighborhoods in the state. What Graham saved on rent he had to pay a lot more in security.

    About 10 years later gays began gentrifying the area. It was very successful. But what with BLM Anti fa and summer of Floyd, the black criminals not only crossed Geary and California but have even crossed Broadway. Sacramento and even Pacific sts They’re getting close to Feinstein’s and Pelosi’s palaces. 2 frail old ladies and their husbands. Hmmmmm

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

    Most of the guys who worked security and the door and wore plain clothes and mixed with the crowd alert for trouble at the original Fillmore west auditorium in San Francisco were very big mean and anti black criminal city police and county sheriffs.

    Thanks. I would love to know what Graham’s true racial attitudes were. I knew he didn’t buy the “peace love and grass” bullshit. He was a cold, hard, cynical capitalist. But I’m sure he had some attitudes that would have gotten him cancelled by 2020.

  174. @anonymous
    And while some of that bonking was spontaneous, CIA tried to hijack it for their own purposes of elite and mass control. The crucial new information to be added is that Manson turns out to be a proto-Epstein.

    You've got to bounce Didion's insight off Tom O'Neil's Chaos, which produces forensic-grade documentary evidence linking Manson with illegal domestic CIA agents Reeve Whitson, Jolly West, and Sidney Gottlieb. And Gottlieb's involvement links CIA's child exploitation and trafficking racket to their MK-ULTRA and Artichoke mind-control efforts.

    O'Neil's with-coauthor got him to tack on a bullshit afterword suggesting all kinds of uncertainty. But O'Neil's evidence speaks for itself.

    Replies: @Alden, @Paperback Writer

    You’ve got to bounce Didion’s insight off Tom O’Neil’s Chaos, which produces forensic-grade documentary evidence linking Manson with illegal domestic CIA agents Reeve Whitson, Jolly West, and Sidney Gottlieb. And Gottlieb’s involvement links CIA’s child exploitation and trafficking racket to their MK-ULTRA and Artichoke mind-control efforts.

    The problem with the book Chaos is that it *is* chaos. It’s the worst-written book I ever read. But it’s a gold mine of information. From that I learned about MK-Ultra and Gottlieb. Read Poisoner-in-Chief by Stephen Kinzer. It’s rather sedately written but that increases the effect. It’s devastating.

  175. @Daniel H
    How does one get LSD today? Who does one approach and ask to sell some? Is it verboten to go to youngish club and announce, "Hey does anybody know where one can get some LSD..?" I'm old enough to handle this stuff. I resent that it is still so far underground.

    Replies: @The Plutonium Kid, @Red Pill Angel, @Rob, @Harpagornis, @AndrewR, @Tony massey

    Don’t you believe for a second good mushrooms won’t send that ass to the er. I have even seen it trigger the vagal response. So that’s what some er dr told me. He also said he didn’t like to go with moar than 2.5 grams anything else was just toxic.
    I always thought 7grams was a good starting point but i won’t kid ya that’s strictly for the advanced.
    DMT is fairly easy to get. That’s definitely a route you want Togo if you can. Sting wrote a really great auto and it starts out with him doing just that. Interesting stuff if you like that sorta thing.
    They are very very easy to grow and thats the only way to go.
    Last i used the spore link it was still good. Last ordered from the other place 3 springs ago next spring. Their stuff is good for a complete novice. Works every time. Just follow directions.
    https://www.micro-supply.com/mushrooms.htm
    http://www.midwestgrowkits.com/grow-kits.html
    I can’t encourage you enough to get that shit ordered buddy and join the club. Life is way moar interesting.
    And I’m telling ya now find yourself a hippie chick and just pile it on. Since you’re a noob i recommend dropping out entirely.
    Just you and your hippie chick.
    Don’t let anyone tell ya shrooms won’t put that ass in the er. Seen it. Seen it. Many times.
    Some folks need to keep to religion.

    Oh and just me personally i would go with the Hawaiian strain. That’s just a guarantee. Others swear by the popular stuff in se asia. Never had them. Go ha’waiian. You won’t regret it

    • Replies: @Tony massey
    @Tony massey

    And get the dick proennoke videos. You'll be back to nature in a whistle.
    I just loved eating shrooms and watching dick proennoke videos. You'll learn something from o dick on shrooms bradda

  176. @Tony massey
    @Daniel H

    Don't you believe for a second good mushrooms won't send that ass to the er. I have even seen it trigger the vagal response. So that's what some er dr told me. He also said he didn't like to go with moar than 2.5 grams anything else was just toxic.
    I always thought 7grams was a good starting point but i won't kid ya that's strictly for the advanced.
    DMT is fairly easy to get. That's definitely a route you want Togo if you can. Sting wrote a really great auto and it starts out with him doing just that. Interesting stuff if you like that sorta thing.
    They are very very easy to grow and thats the only way to go.
    Last i used the spore link it was still good. Last ordered from the other place 3 springs ago next spring. Their stuff is good for a complete novice. Works every time. Just follow directions.
    https://www.micro-supply.com/mushrooms.htm
    http://www.midwestgrowkits.com/grow-kits.html
    I can't encourage you enough to get that shit ordered buddy and join the club. Life is way moar interesting.
    And I'm telling ya now find yourself a hippie chick and just pile it on. Since you're a noob i recommend dropping out entirely.
    Just you and your hippie chick.
    Don't let anyone tell ya shrooms won't put that ass in the er. Seen it. Seen it. Many times.
    Some folks need to keep to religion.

    Oh and just me personally i would go with the Hawaiian strain. That's just a guarantee. Others swear by the popular stuff in se asia. Never had them. Go ha'waiian. You won't regret it

    Replies: @Tony massey

    And get the dick proennoke videos. You’ll be back to nature in a whistle.
    I just loved eating shrooms and watching dick proennoke videos. You’ll learn something from o dick on shrooms bradda

  177. @S

    the hippie chicks pouring off the Greyhound buses in San Francisco in 1967 tended to be working class runaways from broken homes getting away from mom and her boyfriend, without recognizing that worse is in the waiting for them in San Francisco.
     
    I believe it was Squeaky Fromme, who in 1967, and in complete despair and frustration after dropping out of college and being tossed out of the family home, would sit down on a Venice Beach curb, and then meet Charles Manson.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @Paperback Writer

    Squeaky Fromme was the problem child of an intact professional-managerial class family. The frustration and despair were those of her mother and father.

    • Disagree: S
    • Replies: @S
    @Art Deco

    While I think there is such a thing as the 'bad seed', where the parents did everything proper and the child still comes out badly, that is the rare exception.

    Stuff like the Manson Family doesn't come out of the blue, however.

    Squeaky Fromme, like the bulk of the Manson family, including Charles Manson, came from majorly screwed up, ie dysfunctional families.

    As shocking as it might seem to some, there is such as more or less healthy families. Want fewer Manson families, work on preventing family dysfunctionality.


    He begins with her [Fromme's] childhood in the Los Angeles suburbs, where her talent as a dancer and poet was squelched by her toxic family relationships and abusive father....Bravin's careful reconstruction of Fromme's troubled early years and school life is interesting as a study in the ways a dysfunctional family can crush a promising child's potential.

     

    https://www.sfgate.com/books/article/Squeaky-s-Helter-Skelter-Life-Detailed-2821977.php

    Replies: @Art Deco, @Curle

  178. @Rob
    @Triteleia Laxa

    I cannot imagine that at all. Do you have an easy/hard time “getting” other people? Are you extremely creative and good at visuospatial stuff? That’s a rare combo.

    Sorry to treat you like a science project.

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa

    Exceptionally easy to “get” people, especially for them to feel connected. Similar at visualisation, but poor at physically manifesting such things, like when drawing. The latter may be a lack of talent or just motivation. If you can focus in every and any direction, it can be tricky to know which way to look.

  179. @Paperback Writer
    @Jim Don Bob

    For some reason, I misread your previous comment as "Fillmore West." Then I read #3 train in this comment and realized my mistake. That doesn't matter except that I went to a bunch of concerts at the East (not the West), so I can really visualize what you're talking about.

    I enjoy hearing 60s stories while also being relieved that I was a mite too young to partake of the full monty. I smoked a few herbs & spices at concerts but didn't drop or snort anything. In retrospect, it was both daring (on the subway at 2:00 a.m.? do kids do that nowadays) and innocent.

    Of course, even though I wasn't heavily into LSD, we all knew not to drop on an empty stomach so - more mad respect!!

    (If you want to read about the history of LSD in the US, check out Poisoner-in-Chief by Stephen Kinzer. An eye-opener.)

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob, @Curle

    Here’s one more Fillmore East story. The Who were on stage doing Quadrophenia when the building next door caught fire. A cop ran on stage and Roger Daltry punched him. Everything got sorted out, the place was evacuated and no one was hurt.

    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
    @Jim Don Bob

    I could listen to these stories for hours!

    Wish you had a blog: "They Say If You Remembered the 60s You Weren't There But That's Not True."

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob

  180. @Paperback Writer
    @Jim Don Bob

    For some reason, I misread your previous comment as "Fillmore West." Then I read #3 train in this comment and realized my mistake. That doesn't matter except that I went to a bunch of concerts at the East (not the West), so I can really visualize what you're talking about.

    I enjoy hearing 60s stories while also being relieved that I was a mite too young to partake of the full monty. I smoked a few herbs & spices at concerts but didn't drop or snort anything. In retrospect, it was both daring (on the subway at 2:00 a.m.? do kids do that nowadays) and innocent.

    Of course, even though I wasn't heavily into LSD, we all knew not to drop on an empty stomach so - more mad respect!!

    (If you want to read about the history of LSD in the US, check out Poisoner-in-Chief by Stephen Kinzer. An eye-opener.)

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob, @Curle

    You seem to be an late Boomer? Thus I’m thrown off by your use of ‘mad respect’, a form of expression I associate with 2010s and later and cohorts of people reaching adulthood in those years?

    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
    @Curle

    1. Bingo

    2. Can't I use a phrase I happen to like? I also say "awesome" a lot.

    3. I also say "shucks" which I picked up from my Dad.

    Replies: @Curle

  181. @Art Deco
    @S

    Squeaky Fromme was the problem child of an intact professional-managerial class family. The frustration and despair were those of her mother and father.

    Replies: @S

    While I think there is such a thing as the ‘bad seed’, where the parents did everything proper and the child still comes out badly, that is the rare exception.

    Stuff like the Manson Family doesn’t come out of the blue, however.

    Squeaky Fromme, like the bulk of the Manson family, including Charles Manson, came from majorly screwed up, ie dysfunctional families.

    As shocking as it might seem to some, there is such as more or less healthy families. Want fewer Manson families, work on preventing family dysfunctionality.

    He begins with her [Fromme’s] childhood in the Los Angeles suburbs, where her talent as a dancer and poet was squelched by her toxic family relationships and abusive father….Bravin’s careful reconstruction of Fromme’s troubled early years and school life is interesting as a study in the ways a dysfunctional family can crush a promising child’s potential.

    https://www.sfgate.com/books/article/Squeaky-s-Helter-Skelter-Life-Detailed-2821977.php

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @S

    where the parents did everything proper and the child still comes out badly, that is the rare exception.

    Few parents 'do everything proper' because people just don't. Even fewer youth end up attaching themselves to murderous psychopaths and ordering their lives around them. Parental failure is all over the place, because your children have free will. I can give you some gross examples out of my own family.


    And where is the evidence that her family relationships were 'toxic' or that her father was 'abusive'? She has a brother and a sister, by the way. The brother lives in the urban complex in the middle of Riverside County, Ca with his second wife. The sister lives in Mount Kisco, NY with her first and only husband. The sister, at any rate, has children. AFAICT, the elder Mrs. Fromme is still alive and lives near her son. Mr. Fromme died in 1989; he and his wife had 40+ years together.

    Replies: @S

    , @Curle
    @S

    “ While I think there is such a thing as the ‘bad seed’, where the parents did everything proper and the child still comes out badly, that is the rare exception.”

    I’m amazed you believe that unless you include exercising discipline to keep their children away from bad influences as doing everything proper. However, from my observation such discipline regarding social networks is more commonly derided as ‘creating an toxic environment.’

    Want to know why kids go bad? They hang out with poorly socialized kids. Want to know why ‘racist’ southerners opposed school integration? They didn’t want their kids picking up bad habits from poorly socialized blacks kids. Why do attentive parents pay so much attention to school quality and neighborhood stability? They don’t want their kids interacting with poorer kids of single mothers who also tend towards being poorly socialized kids.

    Replies: @Art Deco

  182. @Curle
    @Paperback Writer

    You seem to be an late Boomer? Thus I’m thrown off by your use of ‘mad respect’, a form of expression I associate with 2010s and later and cohorts of people reaching adulthood in those years?

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

    1. Bingo

    2. Can’t I use a phrase I happen to like? I also say “awesome” a lot.

    3. I also say “shucks” which I picked up from my Dad.

    • Replies: @Curle
    @Paperback Writer

    “ 2. Can’t I use a phrase I happen to like? I also say “awesome” a lot.”

    Of course. It just threw me off regarding your age cohort.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

  183. @S

    the hippie chicks pouring off the Greyhound buses in San Francisco in 1967 tended to be working class runaways from broken homes getting away from mom and her boyfriend, without recognizing that worse is in the waiting for them in San Francisco.
     
    I believe it was Squeaky Fromme, who in 1967, and in complete despair and frustration after dropping out of college and being tossed out of the family home, would sit down on a Venice Beach curb, and then meet Charles Manson.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @Paperback Writer

    Why do you disagree w/Art Deco? Her father was an aeronautical engineer, her mother a SAHM. He’s right in this case.

    Also Leslie Van Houten – from a perfectly normal family. She was a pretty homecoming queen.

    • Replies: @AceDeuce
    @Paperback Writer

    Don't forget Angela Lansbury's daughter, who headed out to live with Charlie with mommy's blessing.

    After the Tate/LaBianca murders, a lot of Hollywood film/TV/music bigshots developed mass amnesia concerning their acquaintance with Charlie and the gang. Neil Young, for one.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer, @S

  184. @S
    @Art Deco

    While I think there is such a thing as the 'bad seed', where the parents did everything proper and the child still comes out badly, that is the rare exception.

    Stuff like the Manson Family doesn't come out of the blue, however.

    Squeaky Fromme, like the bulk of the Manson family, including Charles Manson, came from majorly screwed up, ie dysfunctional families.

    As shocking as it might seem to some, there is such as more or less healthy families. Want fewer Manson families, work on preventing family dysfunctionality.


    He begins with her [Fromme's] childhood in the Los Angeles suburbs, where her talent as a dancer and poet was squelched by her toxic family relationships and abusive father....Bravin's careful reconstruction of Fromme's troubled early years and school life is interesting as a study in the ways a dysfunctional family can crush a promising child's potential.

     

    https://www.sfgate.com/books/article/Squeaky-s-Helter-Skelter-Life-Detailed-2821977.php

    Replies: @Art Deco, @Curle

    where the parents did everything proper and the child still comes out badly, that is the rare exception.

    Few parents ‘do everything proper’ because people just don’t. Even fewer youth end up attaching themselves to murderous psychopaths and ordering their lives around them. Parental failure is all over the place, because your children have free will. I can give you some gross examples out of my own family.

    And where is the evidence that her family relationships were ‘toxic’ or that her father was ‘abusive’? She has a brother and a sister, by the way. The brother lives in the urban complex in the middle of Riverside County, Ca with his second wife. The sister lives in Mount Kisco, NY with her first and only husband. The sister, at any rate, has children. AFAICT, the elder Mrs. Fromme is still alive and lives near her son. Mr. Fromme died in 1989; he and his wife had 40+ years together.

    • Replies: @S
    @Art Deco


    And where is the evidence that her family relationships were ‘toxic’ or that her father was ‘abusive’?
     
    Growing up, Lynette's father wouldn't speak to her for years at a time. She wasn't allowed to eat with the rest of the family. Multiple neighborhood families observed this, and having a sense of pity, reported having a near compulsion to adopt her out of the Fromme family, but couldn't figure out how to go about actually doing it.

    She was into self harm, ie her senior year of high school it was reported she was burning herself with cigarettes, deliberately stapling her arm with a staple gun, etc. Self harm is generally seen as someone internalizing abuse they've received from others, and, or, having shut down emotionally, wanting to feel something, anything.

    See first chapter of Squeaky, The Life and Times of Lynette Alice Fromme linked below.

    https://books.google.com/books?id=eMjhDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT4&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false

    Replies: @Art Deco

  185. @Paperback Writer
    @S

    Why do you disagree w/Art Deco? Her father was an aeronautical engineer, her mother a SAHM. He's right in this case.

    Also Leslie Van Houten - from a perfectly normal family. She was a pretty homecoming queen.

    Replies: @AceDeuce

    Don’t forget Angela Lansbury’s daughter, who headed out to live with Charlie with mommy’s blessing.

    After the Tate/LaBianca murders, a lot of Hollywood film/TV/music bigshots developed mass amnesia concerning their acquaintance with Charlie and the gang. Neil Young, for one.

    • Agree: S
    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
    @AceDeuce

    For sure, but most of Charlie's jail bait came straight outta Middle America.

    Replies: @AceDeuce

    , @S
    @AceDeuce


    After the Tate/LaBianca murders, a lot of Hollywood film/TV/music bigshots developed mass amnesia concerning their acquaintance with Charlie and the gang. Neil Young, for one.
     
    Same thing happened with Jim Jones after Jonestown. Suddenly, a lot of high powered progressive/liberal sorts who had been on good personal terms with Jones, or at least were well acquainted with him, had never met the man.

    One who would of been one of those, if only he could of, was California Representatitive Leo Ryan, whose bullet riddled corpse left at the cult's airstrip attested otherwise.

    Sometimes dead men do tell tales.

    Replies: @Art Deco

  186. @Art Deco
    @S

    where the parents did everything proper and the child still comes out badly, that is the rare exception.

    Few parents 'do everything proper' because people just don't. Even fewer youth end up attaching themselves to murderous psychopaths and ordering their lives around them. Parental failure is all over the place, because your children have free will. I can give you some gross examples out of my own family.


    And where is the evidence that her family relationships were 'toxic' or that her father was 'abusive'? She has a brother and a sister, by the way. The brother lives in the urban complex in the middle of Riverside County, Ca with his second wife. The sister lives in Mount Kisco, NY with her first and only husband. The sister, at any rate, has children. AFAICT, the elder Mrs. Fromme is still alive and lives near her son. Mr. Fromme died in 1989; he and his wife had 40+ years together.

    Replies: @S

    And where is the evidence that her family relationships were ‘toxic’ or that her father was ‘abusive’?

    Growing up, Lynette’s father wouldn’t speak to her for years at a time. She wasn’t allowed to eat with the rest of the family. Multiple neighborhood families observed this, and having a sense of pity, reported having a near compulsion to adopt her out of the Fromme family, but couldn’t figure out how to go about actually doing it.

    She was into self harm, ie her senior year of high school it was reported she was burning herself with cigarettes, deliberately stapling her arm with a staple gun, etc. Self harm is generally seen as someone internalizing abuse they’ve received from others, and, or, having shut down emotionally, wanting to feel something, anything.

    See first chapter of Squeaky, The Life and Times of Lynette Alice Fromme linked below.

    https://books.google.com/books?id=eMjhDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT4&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @S

    Growing up, Lynette’s father wouldn’t speak to her for years at a time. She wasn’t allowed to eat with the rest of the family. Multiple neighborhood families observed this, and having a sense of pity, reported having a near compulsion to adopt her out of the Fromme family, but couldn’t figure out how to go about actually doing it.


    1. Have a gander at the notes and his source material. There is flat nothing listed in there except interviews with Fromme herself which would provide testimony to any of that.

    2. The notion that her father 'wouldn't speak to her' for 'years at a time' is not credible.

    3. The notion that 'multiple families' observed him not talking to his daughter is not credible either.

    4. The notion that other people observed her eating elsewhere is credible. The notion that Mr. Fromme maintained this policy for 19 years is not.

    5. The commentaries on papa Fromme read like a great deal of embroidery on small incidents coupled to reframing.

    6. A great deal of observation is attributed to 'neighbors', while at the same time the book claims the older and the younger generation avoided him.

  187. @Jim Don Bob
    @Paperback Writer

    Here's one more Fillmore East story. The Who were on stage doing Quadrophenia when the building next door caught fire. A cop ran on stage and Roger Daltry punched him. Everything got sorted out, the place was evacuated and no one was hurt.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

    I could listen to these stories for hours!

    Wish you had a blog: “They Say If You Remembered the 60s You Weren’t There But That’s Not True.”

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    @Paperback Writer

    Since you asked ...

    A high school buddy told some kid from Queens that I was selling weed. I wasn't. First thing I know about it is the kid shows up at my dorm room. Next thing I know I'm in the Dean's office and he wants to know what I know about heroin usage (nothing). The Dean would have more serious problems later that year.

    And in the spring semester, a sophomore got a head start on Jimi Hendrix by aspirating his own vomit after eating a bunch of hash.

    The GF of the roomie who didn't show for our acid trip had gone on a drug trip to India (or somewhere) and smuggled a bunch of hash back into the US concealed in her Kotex.

    And there were lots of pretty braless girls in short skirts and boots.

  188. @AceDeuce
    @Paperback Writer

    Don't forget Angela Lansbury's daughter, who headed out to live with Charlie with mommy's blessing.

    After the Tate/LaBianca murders, a lot of Hollywood film/TV/music bigshots developed mass amnesia concerning their acquaintance with Charlie and the gang. Neil Young, for one.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer, @S

    For sure, but most of Charlie’s jail bait came straight outta Middle America.

    • Replies: @AceDeuce
    @Paperback Writer

    Not to quibble, but I think that most of them, while coming from middle class, or slightly better, homes, were from Southern California, which, especially back then, was essentially Western Iowa, as far as the middle class White population went.

    Off the top of my head, wasn't one of his prime girls the daughter of an FBI agent, or something similar? I think so.

    Semi-off topic: Alden posted earlier regarding Charlie pimping the girls out. That reminds me that he also put them to work and make money stripping, most notably at the Candy Cat in Chatsworth (AKA Candy Cat One). It was a low-end bar/strip joint that wasn't overly selective about the girls they hired. Up until a few years ago, it was still open, but, sadly, it's now closed.

    Charlie wore out his welcome pretty quickly with the management, and was not allowed inside the place after a while, so he'd hang out at the nearby Munch Box, an iconic little greasy spoon that's been there forever, and wait for the girls to finish their shifts so he could take them home. The Munch Box is still there. You can hang out and nosh just like Charlie back in the day ( I heard that he favored the chili dogs).

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

  189. @Paperback Writer
    @Curle

    1. Bingo

    2. Can't I use a phrase I happen to like? I also say "awesome" a lot.

    3. I also say "shucks" which I picked up from my Dad.

    Replies: @Curle

    “ 2. Can’t I use a phrase I happen to like? I also say “awesome” a lot.”

    Of course. It just threw me off regarding your age cohort.

    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
    @Curle

    I never thought it was representative of a younger age cohort. I suppose you're right. I like it because it really captures the flavor of a feeling. And I really do have mad respect for someone who worked at the Fillmore East.

    Replies: @Curle

  190. @Paperback Writer
    @AceDeuce

    For sure, but most of Charlie's jail bait came straight outta Middle America.

    Replies: @AceDeuce

    Not to quibble, but I think that most of them, while coming from middle class, or slightly better, homes, were from Southern California, which, especially back then, was essentially Western Iowa, as far as the middle class White population went.

    Off the top of my head, wasn’t one of his prime girls the daughter of an FBI agent, or something similar? I think so.

    Semi-off topic: Alden posted earlier regarding Charlie pimping the girls out. That reminds me that he also put them to work and make money stripping, most notably at the Candy Cat in Chatsworth (AKA Candy Cat One). It was a low-end bar/strip joint that wasn’t overly selective about the girls they hired. Up until a few years ago, it was still open, but, sadly, it’s now closed.

    Charlie wore out his welcome pretty quickly with the management, and was not allowed inside the place after a while, so he’d hang out at the nearby Munch Box, an iconic little greasy spoon that’s been there forever, and wait for the girls to finish their shifts so he could take them home. The Munch Box is still there. You can hang out and nosh just like Charlie back in the day ( I heard that he favored the chili dogs).

    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
    @AceDeuce


    Not to quibble, but I think that most of them, while coming from middle class, or slightly better, homes, were from Southern California, which, especially back then, was essentially Western Iowa, as far as the middle class White population went.

     

    Which to me is Middle America.

    I spent some idle time looking up the backgrounds of some of the girls on Find A Grave, and I was shocked at how many fairly old stock Americans they were. Don't ask me the names. I'm not retracing my steps but I do recall that Susan Atkins' lineage went back to a soldier of the war of 1812!!

    One thing I never understood is how anyone could have fallen for that ugly chimp. I can understand girls falling for jogger football players but not him. What was his secret? He seems to have had a genuinely compelling personality. It doesn't come through in pictures.

    According to the book "Chaos," Terry Melcher was wildly in love with Ruthann Morehouse. Charlie was clever.

    Replies: @Obstinate Cymric

  191. @S
    @Art Deco


    And where is the evidence that her family relationships were ‘toxic’ or that her father was ‘abusive’?
     
    Growing up, Lynette's father wouldn't speak to her for years at a time. She wasn't allowed to eat with the rest of the family. Multiple neighborhood families observed this, and having a sense of pity, reported having a near compulsion to adopt her out of the Fromme family, but couldn't figure out how to go about actually doing it.

    She was into self harm, ie her senior year of high school it was reported she was burning herself with cigarettes, deliberately stapling her arm with a staple gun, etc. Self harm is generally seen as someone internalizing abuse they've received from others, and, or, having shut down emotionally, wanting to feel something, anything.

    See first chapter of Squeaky, The Life and Times of Lynette Alice Fromme linked below.

    https://books.google.com/books?id=eMjhDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT4&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false

    Replies: @Art Deco

    Growing up, Lynette’s father wouldn’t speak to her for years at a time. She wasn’t allowed to eat with the rest of the family. Multiple neighborhood families observed this, and having a sense of pity, reported having a near compulsion to adopt her out of the Fromme family, but couldn’t figure out how to go about actually doing it.

    1. Have a gander at the notes and his source material. There is flat nothing listed in there except interviews with Fromme herself which would provide testimony to any of that.

    2. The notion that her father ‘wouldn’t speak to her’ for ‘years at a time’ is not credible.

    3. The notion that ‘multiple families’ observed him not talking to his daughter is not credible either.

    4. The notion that other people observed her eating elsewhere is credible. The notion that Mr. Fromme maintained this policy for 19 years is not.

    5. The commentaries on papa Fromme read like a great deal of embroidery on small incidents coupled to reframing.

    6. A great deal of observation is attributed to ‘neighbors’, while at the same time the book claims the older and the younger generation avoided him.

  192. @Curle
    @Paperback Writer

    “ 2. Can’t I use a phrase I happen to like? I also say “awesome” a lot.”

    Of course. It just threw me off regarding your age cohort.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

    I never thought it was representative of a younger age cohort. I suppose you’re right. I like it because it really captures the flavor of a feeling. And I really do have mad respect for someone who worked at the Fillmore East.

    • Replies: @Curle
    @Paperback Writer

    This isn’t intended to minimize your respect, mad or otherwise, but I tend to dole out such observations very sparingly. I’m in awe of Shakespeare’s talent though I never met him, obviously. But for the most part I reserve such observations for people who are given an tough and ugly job that offers nothing but hardship and perform it with grace, skill and courage. I’m thinking of a former neighbor, now deceased, who was at Normandy and another, a childhood neighbor, even older and also long deceased, who was at the second battle of the Marne.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

  193. @S
    @Art Deco

    While I think there is such a thing as the 'bad seed', where the parents did everything proper and the child still comes out badly, that is the rare exception.

    Stuff like the Manson Family doesn't come out of the blue, however.

    Squeaky Fromme, like the bulk of the Manson family, including Charles Manson, came from majorly screwed up, ie dysfunctional families.

    As shocking as it might seem to some, there is such as more or less healthy families. Want fewer Manson families, work on preventing family dysfunctionality.


    He begins with her [Fromme's] childhood in the Los Angeles suburbs, where her talent as a dancer and poet was squelched by her toxic family relationships and abusive father....Bravin's careful reconstruction of Fromme's troubled early years and school life is interesting as a study in the ways a dysfunctional family can crush a promising child's potential.

     

    https://www.sfgate.com/books/article/Squeaky-s-Helter-Skelter-Life-Detailed-2821977.php

    Replies: @Art Deco, @Curle

    “ While I think there is such a thing as the ‘bad seed’, where the parents did everything proper and the child still comes out badly, that is the rare exception.”

    I’m amazed you believe that unless you include exercising discipline to keep their children away from bad influences as doing everything proper. However, from my observation such discipline regarding social networks is more commonly derided as ‘creating an toxic environment.’

    Want to know why kids go bad? They hang out with poorly socialized kids. Want to know why ‘racist’ southerners opposed school integration? They didn’t want their kids picking up bad habits from poorly socialized blacks kids. Why do attentive parents pay so much attention to school quality and neighborhood stability? They don’t want their kids interacting with poorer kids of single mothers who also tend towards being poorly socialized kids.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Curle

    Want to know why kids go bad? They hang out with poorly socialized kids.

    The poorly socialized kids are attractive to them and the lot of them egg each other on.

  194. @AceDeuce
    @Paperback Writer

    Not to quibble, but I think that most of them, while coming from middle class, or slightly better, homes, were from Southern California, which, especially back then, was essentially Western Iowa, as far as the middle class White population went.

    Off the top of my head, wasn't one of his prime girls the daughter of an FBI agent, or something similar? I think so.

    Semi-off topic: Alden posted earlier regarding Charlie pimping the girls out. That reminds me that he also put them to work and make money stripping, most notably at the Candy Cat in Chatsworth (AKA Candy Cat One). It was a low-end bar/strip joint that wasn't overly selective about the girls they hired. Up until a few years ago, it was still open, but, sadly, it's now closed.

    Charlie wore out his welcome pretty quickly with the management, and was not allowed inside the place after a while, so he'd hang out at the nearby Munch Box, an iconic little greasy spoon that's been there forever, and wait for the girls to finish their shifts so he could take them home. The Munch Box is still there. You can hang out and nosh just like Charlie back in the day ( I heard that he favored the chili dogs).

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

    Not to quibble, but I think that most of them, while coming from middle class, or slightly better, homes, were from Southern California, which, especially back then, was essentially Western Iowa, as far as the middle class White population went.

    Which to me is Middle America.

    I spent some idle time looking up the backgrounds of some of the girls on Find A Grave, and I was shocked at how many fairly old stock Americans they were. Don’t ask me the names. I’m not retracing my steps but I do recall that Susan Atkins’ lineage went back to a soldier of the war of 1812!!

    One thing I never understood is how anyone could have fallen for that ugly chimp. I can understand girls falling for jogger football players but not him. What was his secret? He seems to have had a genuinely compelling personality. It doesn’t come through in pictures.

    According to the book “Chaos,” Terry Melcher was wildly in love with Ruthann Morehouse. Charlie was clever.

    • Replies: @Obstinate Cymric
    @Paperback Writer

    "One thing I never understood is how anyone could have fallen for that ugly chimp."

    Women will share an alpha male in a domestic setting - been doing it for millennia. Muslims do it now. All men are happy to sample the charms of an desirable female, but few want polyandry.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-59774315


    Scientists have compiled the world's oldest family tree from human bones interred at a 5,700-year-old tomb in the Cotswolds, UK.

    Analysis of DNA from the tomb's occupants revealed the people buried there were from five continuous generations of one extended family.

    Most of those found in the tomb were descended from four women who all had children with the same man.
     

    But this is a BBC report, so what's the angle?

    The right to use the site was based on descent from one man.

    But people were buried in different parts of the tomb based on the first-generation matriarch they were descended from.

    This suggests that the first-generation women held a socially significant place in the memories of this community.
     

    As opposed to say, Neithhotep, Meirnith, Kubaba, Nefertiti, Cleopatra etc etc.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Ancient_women_rulers_by_century


    Co-author Prof David Reich, from Harvard Medical School in Boston, US, who led the generation of ancient DNA from the remains, explained: "Two of the women, all of their children are in the south chamber - and their kids up to the fifth generation.

     

    (David Reich again - here's a new study implying that lactose-tolerant genes only arrived in England around 1,000 BC - as the Yamnaya-descended Brits (who'd replaced the original hunter-gatherers and Early European Farmers around 5,000 BC) were themselves about 50% replaced - perhaps by proto-Frenchmen.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-59741723


    At first, said Dr Thomas Booth, from the Francis Crick Institute in London, people with the new, continental ancestry "appear almost exclusively in Kent... but we don't really see them anywhere else and we don't see a change in the overall ancestry of Britain.

    But the new DNA signature soon spreads: "From around 1,000BC, suddenly that ancestry seems to disperse all the way through southern Britain, particularly," he explained, adding: "There's no particular genetic change in Scotland, but everywhere in England and Wales, this ancestry has an effect."

    Prof David Reich from Harvard Medical School in Boston, US, who led the research, told BBC News: "We estimate that about half the DNA of people in the Iron Age in Britain comes from these new migrants. What that means is if you trace back the ancestors of these Iron Age Britons 20 generations before the time they lived, half of them would not be living on the island of Great Britain."

    As for where the initial migrants originated in continental Europe, their closest matches are with ancient populations in France.

     

    )
  195. @Paperback Writer
    @Jim Don Bob

    I could listen to these stories for hours!

    Wish you had a blog: "They Say If You Remembered the 60s You Weren't There But That's Not True."

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob

    Since you asked …

    A high school buddy told some kid from Queens that I was selling weed. I wasn’t. First thing I know about it is the kid shows up at my dorm room. Next thing I know I’m in the Dean’s office and he wants to know what I know about heroin usage (nothing). The Dean would have more serious problems later that year.

    And in the spring semester, a sophomore got a head start on Jimi Hendrix by aspirating his own vomit after eating a bunch of hash.

    The GF of the roomie who didn’t show for our acid trip had gone on a drug trip to India (or somewhere) and smuggled a bunch of hash back into the US concealed in her Kotex.

    And there were lots of pretty braless girls in short skirts and boots.

  196. @AceDeuce
    @Paperback Writer

    Don't forget Angela Lansbury's daughter, who headed out to live with Charlie with mommy's blessing.

    After the Tate/LaBianca murders, a lot of Hollywood film/TV/music bigshots developed mass amnesia concerning their acquaintance with Charlie and the gang. Neil Young, for one.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer, @S

    After the Tate/LaBianca murders, a lot of Hollywood film/TV/music bigshots developed mass amnesia concerning their acquaintance with Charlie and the gang. Neil Young, for one.

    Same thing happened with Jim Jones after Jonestown. Suddenly, a lot of high powered progressive/liberal sorts who had been on good personal terms with Jones, or at least were well acquainted with him, had never met the man.

    One who would of been one of those, if only he could of, was California Representatitive Leo Ryan, whose bullet riddled corpse left at the cult’s airstrip attested otherwise.

    Sometimes dead men do tell tales.

    • Thanks: AceDeuce
    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @S

    Jones had been an obtrusive figure in San Francisco for about a dozen years and had put his crew to work on the campaigns of local politicians.

    Terry Melcher - a music producer - was acquainted with Manson for a period of months in 1968 and 1969 while considering whether or not to arrange for a recording contract for him and whether or not to make a documentary about his crew. Melcher elected to abandon both projects and had no further dealings with Manson; the last he saw of him was > 7 months prior to the murders.

    Not seeing how these situations are equivalent.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

  197. @Luke Lea
    @Dave Pinsen

    That might have been me. In 1967 I shared a five bedroom house on Rivoli Street with four other recent Reed graduates, my share of the rent being $30 a month, which I paid for with a 45 minute a day job cleaning up a doctor's office half an hour away by car. Total income: $100 a month. My car, by the way, happened to be an 1956 Ford convertible which I bought in Berkeley in 1964 for $50. You could live cheap back then, even in San Francisco.

    I wasn't a hippy, by the way. I was a hippy anthropologist

    Replies: @James J O'Meara, @Curle, @Obstinate Cymric

    60s/70s in both UK and US, property was cheap pre-mass immigration, and certainly in the UK, the desirable properties were posh suburbs of cities, not places out in the country – the further out you went the cheaper it got. In places like Alston, Hebden Bridge and Stroud you could get a stone cottage for a couple of thousand, sometimes only hundreds. Cornwall, Devon, Wales were cheap.

    And it was easy to find work.

    So a lot of people could live cheaply and do creative stuff (or just get smashed).

  198. @Paperback Writer
    @Curle

    I never thought it was representative of a younger age cohort. I suppose you're right. I like it because it really captures the flavor of a feeling. And I really do have mad respect for someone who worked at the Fillmore East.

    Replies: @Curle

    This isn’t intended to minimize your respect, mad or otherwise, but I tend to dole out such observations very sparingly. I’m in awe of Shakespeare’s talent though I never met him, obviously. But for the most part I reserve such observations for people who are given an tough and ugly job that offers nothing but hardship and perform it with grace, skill and courage. I’m thinking of a former neighbor, now deceased, who was at Normandy and another, a childhood neighbor, even older and also long deceased, who was at the second battle of the Marne.

    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
    @Curle

    For such people I'd never use a trendy phrase like "mad respect."

    I'd use simple tried & true words: homage, veneration, admiration.

  199. @Paperback Writer
    @AceDeuce


    Not to quibble, but I think that most of them, while coming from middle class, or slightly better, homes, were from Southern California, which, especially back then, was essentially Western Iowa, as far as the middle class White population went.

     

    Which to me is Middle America.

    I spent some idle time looking up the backgrounds of some of the girls on Find A Grave, and I was shocked at how many fairly old stock Americans they were. Don't ask me the names. I'm not retracing my steps but I do recall that Susan Atkins' lineage went back to a soldier of the war of 1812!!

    One thing I never understood is how anyone could have fallen for that ugly chimp. I can understand girls falling for jogger football players but not him. What was his secret? He seems to have had a genuinely compelling personality. It doesn't come through in pictures.

    According to the book "Chaos," Terry Melcher was wildly in love with Ruthann Morehouse. Charlie was clever.

    Replies: @Obstinate Cymric

    “One thing I never understood is how anyone could have fallen for that ugly chimp.”

    Women will share an alpha male in a domestic setting – been doing it for millennia. Muslims do it now. All men are happy to sample the charms of an desirable female, but few want polyandry.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-59774315

    Scientists have compiled the world’s oldest family tree from human bones interred at a 5,700-year-old tomb in the Cotswolds, UK.

    Analysis of DNA from the tomb’s occupants revealed the people buried there were from five continuous generations of one extended family.

    Most of those found in the tomb were descended from four women who all had children with the same man.

    But this is a BBC report, so what’s the angle?

    The right to use the site was based on descent from one man.

    But people were buried in different parts of the tomb based on the first-generation matriarch they were descended from.

    This suggests that the first-generation women held a socially significant place in the memories of this community.

    As opposed to say, Neithhotep, Meirnith, Kubaba, Nefertiti, Cleopatra etc etc.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Ancient_women_rulers_by_century

    Co-author Prof David Reich, from Harvard Medical School in Boston, US, who led the generation of ancient DNA from the remains, explained: “Two of the women, all of their children are in the south chamber – and their kids up to the fifth generation.

    (David Reich again – here’s a new study implying that lactose-tolerant genes only arrived in England around 1,000 BC – as the Yamnaya-descended Brits (who’d replaced the original hunter-gatherers and Early European Farmers around 5,000 BC) were themselves about 50% replaced – perhaps by proto-Frenchmen.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-59741723

    At first, said Dr Thomas Booth, from the Francis Crick Institute in London, people with the new, continental ancestry “appear almost exclusively in Kent… but we don’t really see them anywhere else and we don’t see a change in the overall ancestry of Britain.

    But the new DNA signature soon spreads: “From around 1,000BC, suddenly that ancestry seems to disperse all the way through southern Britain, particularly,” he explained, adding: “There’s no particular genetic change in Scotland, but everywhere in England and Wales, this ancestry has an effect.”

    Prof David Reich from Harvard Medical School in Boston, US, who led the research, told BBC News: “We estimate that about half the DNA of people in the Iron Age in Britain comes from these new migrants. What that means is if you trace back the ancestors of these Iron Age Britons 20 generations before the time they lived, half of them would not be living on the island of Great Britain.”

    As for where the initial migrants originated in continental Europe, their closest matches are with ancient populations in France.

    )

  200. @S
    @AceDeuce


    After the Tate/LaBianca murders, a lot of Hollywood film/TV/music bigshots developed mass amnesia concerning their acquaintance with Charlie and the gang. Neil Young, for one.
     
    Same thing happened with Jim Jones after Jonestown. Suddenly, a lot of high powered progressive/liberal sorts who had been on good personal terms with Jones, or at least were well acquainted with him, had never met the man.

    One who would of been one of those, if only he could of, was California Representatitive Leo Ryan, whose bullet riddled corpse left at the cult's airstrip attested otherwise.

    Sometimes dead men do tell tales.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    Jones had been an obtrusive figure in San Francisco for about a dozen years and had put his crew to work on the campaigns of local politicians.

    Terry Melcher – a music producer – was acquainted with Manson for a period of months in 1968 and 1969 while considering whether or not to arrange for a recording contract for him and whether or not to make a documentary about his crew. Melcher elected to abandon both projects and had no further dealings with Manson; the last he saw of him was > 7 months prior to the murders.

    Not seeing how these situations are equivalent.

    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
    @Art Deco


    Terry Melcher – a music producer – was acquainted with Manson for a period of months in 1968 and 1969 while considering whether or not to arrange for a recording contract for him and whether or not to make a documentary about his crew. Melcher elected to abandon both projects and had no further dealings with Manson; the last he saw of him was > 7 months prior to the murders.

     

    That's the official line. But if you read Chaos by Tom O'Neill, it's not true. I'm not going to cite every instance; you'll just have to read the book if you care to subject your beliefs to the acid test.

    I don't expect you will, but you might ask yourself why the hell a solidly situated, successful industry pro, son of Doris Day, would have anything to do with scum like Manson, and you might start to doubt your certainties.

    Replies: @Curle

  201. @Curle
    @S

    “ While I think there is such a thing as the ‘bad seed’, where the parents did everything proper and the child still comes out badly, that is the rare exception.”

    I’m amazed you believe that unless you include exercising discipline to keep their children away from bad influences as doing everything proper. However, from my observation such discipline regarding social networks is more commonly derided as ‘creating an toxic environment.’

    Want to know why kids go bad? They hang out with poorly socialized kids. Want to know why ‘racist’ southerners opposed school integration? They didn’t want their kids picking up bad habits from poorly socialized blacks kids. Why do attentive parents pay so much attention to school quality and neighborhood stability? They don’t want their kids interacting with poorer kids of single mothers who also tend towards being poorly socialized kids.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    Want to know why kids go bad? They hang out with poorly socialized kids.

    The poorly socialized kids are attractive to them and the lot of them egg each other on.

  202. You’re right, I misunderstood. When you said “Middle America”, I took it to mean geographically, but as I said, at that time, SoCal’s White population was basically transplants from the literal Middle America, so I see what you’re saying.

    Hard to believe the drastic changes in half a century. Cal. was one of the most conservative states, and one of the most successful. Now, look at it.

    One reason for Charlie’s success, such as it was, in interpersonal relationships, was supposedly partially a result of Dale Carnegie books and courses (offered in prison!).

    https://radaronline.com/p/self-help-book-inspired-charles-manson-cult-leader-murder/

    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
    @AceDeuce

    I knew about Manson's Dale Carnegie fandom. In addition to Chaos, I read a bio of him that came out in 2014. It wasn't that great but it had the basics in it. I really do recommend the O'Neill book, although it was badly written. We don't know the half of it. So much has been swept under the carpet.

    https://www.amazon.com/Chaos-Charles-Manson-History-Sixties/dp/0316477559

    , @Art Deco
    @AceDeuce

    Cal. was one of the most conservative states


    The Democrats have held the state assembly for all but four years since 1959. Same deal with the state Senate. The Republican governors and U.S. Senators California's had since 1969 have been starboard (if disappointing to some); in 50 years, the Republicans have won 3 out of 14 Senate contests and about 1/2 the gubernatorial contests. If you look back prior to 1970, the most prominent statewide officeholders among Republicans were Ronald Reagan (starboard), Wm. Knowland (starboard), Thos. Kuchel (liberal), Goodwin Knight (liberal), Earl Warren (liberal), and Richard Nixon (temporizer, but siding with Rockefeller over Reagan when you got down to brass tacks). I think it was true from 1958 to 1994 that a conservative could win statewide, not that the state's electorate was starboard.

  203. @Curle
    @Paperback Writer

    This isn’t intended to minimize your respect, mad or otherwise, but I tend to dole out such observations very sparingly. I’m in awe of Shakespeare’s talent though I never met him, obviously. But for the most part I reserve such observations for people who are given an tough and ugly job that offers nothing but hardship and perform it with grace, skill and courage. I’m thinking of a former neighbor, now deceased, who was at Normandy and another, a childhood neighbor, even older and also long deceased, who was at the second battle of the Marne.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

    For such people I’d never use a trendy phrase like “mad respect.”

    I’d use simple tried & true words: homage, veneration, admiration.

  204. @Art Deco
    @S

    Jones had been an obtrusive figure in San Francisco for about a dozen years and had put his crew to work on the campaigns of local politicians.

    Terry Melcher - a music producer - was acquainted with Manson for a period of months in 1968 and 1969 while considering whether or not to arrange for a recording contract for him and whether or not to make a documentary about his crew. Melcher elected to abandon both projects and had no further dealings with Manson; the last he saw of him was > 7 months prior to the murders.

    Not seeing how these situations are equivalent.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

    Terry Melcher – a music producer – was acquainted with Manson for a period of months in 1968 and 1969 while considering whether or not to arrange for a recording contract for him and whether or not to make a documentary about his crew. Melcher elected to abandon both projects and had no further dealings with Manson; the last he saw of him was > 7 months prior to the murders.

    That’s the official line. But if you read Chaos by Tom O’Neill, it’s not true. I’m not going to cite every instance; you’ll just have to read the book if you care to subject your beliefs to the acid test.

    I don’t expect you will, but you might ask yourself why the hell a solidly situated, successful industry pro, son of Doris Day, would have anything to do with scum like Manson, and you might start to doubt your certainties.

    • Replies: @Curle
    @Paperback Writer

    “ you might ask yourself why the hell a solidly situated, successful industry pro, son of Doris Day, would have anything to do with scum like Manson.”

    I knew a respectable gal who invited Ted Buddy to a party at her home back in the day. Most of us know very little about the people we interact with. My guess is Charlie came across as only slightly weirder than many other SoCal music weirdos. Look up the Merv Griffin show episode where music ‘God’ Phil Spector was guest. The guy was so unhinged he creeped out the other guests and the audience.








    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IOyR4HJ4pl8

  205. @AceDeuce
    You're right, I misunderstood. When you said "Middle America", I took it to mean geographically, but as I said, at that time, SoCal's White population was basically transplants from the literal Middle America, so I see what you're saying.

    Hard to believe the drastic changes in half a century. Cal. was one of the most conservative states, and one of the most successful. Now, look at it.

    One reason for Charlie's success, such as it was, in interpersonal relationships, was supposedly partially a result of Dale Carnegie books and courses (offered in prison!).

    https://radaronline.com/p/self-help-book-inspired-charles-manson-cult-leader-murder/

    Replies: @Paperback Writer, @Art Deco

    I knew about Manson’s Dale Carnegie fandom. In addition to Chaos, I read a bio of him that came out in 2014. It wasn’t that great but it had the basics in it. I really do recommend the O’Neill book, although it was badly written. We don’t know the half of it. So much has been swept under the carpet.

  206. @Paperback Writer
    @Art Deco


    Terry Melcher – a music producer – was acquainted with Manson for a period of months in 1968 and 1969 while considering whether or not to arrange for a recording contract for him and whether or not to make a documentary about his crew. Melcher elected to abandon both projects and had no further dealings with Manson; the last he saw of him was > 7 months prior to the murders.

     

    That's the official line. But if you read Chaos by Tom O'Neill, it's not true. I'm not going to cite every instance; you'll just have to read the book if you care to subject your beliefs to the acid test.

    I don't expect you will, but you might ask yourself why the hell a solidly situated, successful industry pro, son of Doris Day, would have anything to do with scum like Manson, and you might start to doubt your certainties.

    Replies: @Curle

    “ you might ask yourself why the hell a solidly situated, successful industry pro, son of Doris Day, would have anything to do with scum like Manson.”

    I knew a respectable gal who invited Ted Buddy to a party at her home back in the day. Most of us know very little about the people we interact with. My guess is Charlie came across as only slightly weirder than many other SoCal music weirdos. Look up the Merv Griffin show episode where music ‘God’ Phil Spector was guest. The guy was so unhinged he creeped out the other guests and the audience.

  207. @AceDeuce
    You're right, I misunderstood. When you said "Middle America", I took it to mean geographically, but as I said, at that time, SoCal's White population was basically transplants from the literal Middle America, so I see what you're saying.

    Hard to believe the drastic changes in half a century. Cal. was one of the most conservative states, and one of the most successful. Now, look at it.

    One reason for Charlie's success, such as it was, in interpersonal relationships, was supposedly partially a result of Dale Carnegie books and courses (offered in prison!).

    https://radaronline.com/p/self-help-book-inspired-charles-manson-cult-leader-murder/

    Replies: @Paperback Writer, @Art Deco

    Cal. was one of the most conservative states

    The Democrats have held the state assembly for all but four years since 1959. Same deal with the state Senate. The Republican governors and U.S. Senators California’s had since 1969 have been starboard (if disappointing to some); in 50 years, the Republicans have won 3 out of 14 Senate contests and about 1/2 the gubernatorial contests. If you look back prior to 1970, the most prominent statewide officeholders among Republicans were Ronald Reagan (starboard), Wm. Knowland (starboard), Thos. Kuchel (liberal), Goodwin Knight (liberal), Earl Warren (liberal), and Richard Nixon (temporizer, but siding with Rockefeller over Reagan when you got down to brass tacks). I think it was true from 1958 to 1994 that a conservative could win statewide, not that the state’s electorate was starboard.

    • Agree: Johann Ricke
  208. @S. Anonyia
    @Rob

    You’re not alone. Unlike most of the modern right, I don’t think there is a true opioid crisis. Weak-willed and bored people will be weak-willed regardless of what substance is widely available. I also don’t have sympathy for alcoholics. The typical person has to push through a lot of physical discomfort to get to the point where they become addicted to either opioids or alcohol.

    Replies: @nebulafox

    There’s a major functional difference in terms of community QOL outcomes between having drunks and smack addicts.

    The former is *vastly* preferable.

    • Agree: Jim Don Bob

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