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Although there was some hope awhile ago that the Italian death tolls were inflated by overcounting, the simpler metric of current vs. year-ago total deaths in towns in Bergamo province suggests that the coronavirus death toll is even higher.

Here’s a Google Translate of an article on Sunday from L’Eco di Bergamo:

Sunday 22 March 2020
Almost a thousand deaths in the Bergamo area
Mayors: «But there are many more»
From Alzano to Nembro, from Dalmine to Stezzano, to the Bassa all, given in hand, deny the official figures on the victims.

… The mayor of Bergamo Giorgio Gori launched the alarm two days ago on L’Eco – “we all know of elderly people who died in a retirement home, or at home, and who have not been buffered [counted?]” – and experts they listened….

Alzano Lombardo and Nembro, the Bergamo heart of the emergency, pay a huge tribute. 62 people have died in Alzano since 23 February. A year ago there had been 9. In Nembro the mayor Claudio Cancelli observed with cautious optimism a decline after dramatic days: «The drop in deaths is significant, especially compared to the period from 10 to 13 March. Since the beginning of the month in Nembro we have had between 110 and 120 deaths. In the same period last year 14. This is enough to understand ».

Every day the report sent by Ats and the prefecture collides with the direct perception of the first citizens. “Of course, in our case the official documents say that the coronavirus caused 9 deaths – explains the mayor of Seriate Cristian Vezzoli – but since the beginning of the month our registry office has registered about 60. In the absence of a buffer the doctors write” interstitial pneumonia “however the symptoms are clear and therefore the data are not realistic”. A budget sadly similar to that of other large municipalities. … In nearby Caravaggio 50 against an average of 6 in previous years. Only 2 “officers” for Covid-19.

70 people have died in Dalmine, including 2 officially for coronavirus. A year ago they had been 18.

“We are losing a generation of volunteers and people who made the history of our country – is the bitter observation of Simone Tangorra, Mayor of Stezzano where 40 people died in March, almost all with symptoms compatible with the coronavirus, against 10 of a year ago -. It is a very widespread phenomenon, which unfortunately also involves 50 and 60 year olds ».

Interestingly, Sweden is pursuing a more hands off policy than most of the rest of Europe. From Bloomberg:

Swedes Try Laissez-Faire Model in Controversial Virus Response
By Niclas Rolander
March 23, 2020, 10:24 AM PDT

Sweden is starting to look like a global outlier in its response to the coronavirus.

Scandinavia’s biggest economy is one of the last places where kids still go to school, cafes, bars and restaurants remain open, and gatherings of up to 500 people are still allowed.

The Swedish approach raises questions about how socially distant we need to be to stay safe, given the devastating impact of shutting down an entire economy.

“I’m not sure we will get an entirely clear picture of which measures were most effective,” Anders Tegnell, Sweden’s top epidemiologist, said at a press conference in Stockholm on Monday. He underscored Sweden’s adherence to what he said was the most important principle: Protecting the elderly through isolation.

For some, Sweden’s approach is a clear weakness. Nordea has gone as far as suggesting that a “laissez-faire” model might be a reason to avoid Swedish markets. To others, less restrictive measures seem more pragmatic.

We’ve heard a lot of hopeful predictions that maybe the pandemic will cool off when it warms up. But the far northern countries, such as Sweden and Russia, don’t seem all that hard hit so far. Will it stay that way?

 
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  1. Neoconned says:

    As many on here have noted….Sweden seems to be ruled by women and so it remains cough w its legs wide open cough….

    They took in all those foreigners….why restrict your movements….Swedish women need the freedom of movement to go have relations w their Iranian bad boys….

    • Agree: MikeatMikedotMike
    • Replies: @HA
    , @JohnPlywood
  2. The question is, is there a possibility that people carrying certain genes, typically found in Northern/Western Europe, are less prone to get and/or die from the virus? (as was suggested years ago about HIV/AIDS). And if so, is it due to a natural resistance formed for the survivors of the black plague and many other numerous plagues in Europe within the last 2,000 years? Elderly Italians aside.

    Where are the bodies dropping like flies? Where? Who? What is their genetic background (again, adjusted for 79 year old smokers). Where are the bodies of Europeans or European-Americans who are under the age of 70…and when I ask where are the bodies, I do not mean the 10 deaths here and there of young people who typically die from something like the flu every year. Whatever their genetic make up.

    Where. Are. The. Bodies?

  3. Anonymous[123] • Disclaimer says:

    Most likely only a couple of weeks’ delay.

    We must remember that in a damned cold country like Sweden, by necessity, people are packed in together in enclosed spaces.
    Also, consider Sweden’s huge foreign population – and all the tooing and froing, panmixia from all corners of the globe which that implies.

  4. Anonymous[367] • Disclaimer says:

    Look up HLA-B27, a gene marker more commonly found in Northern Europeans (Laplanders highest %). Believed that people with the HLA marker don’t easily progress from HIV to AIDs, flush out HepC, and may flush out other viruses due to certain immune responses. Unfortunately, it also results in often being more susceptible to more autoimmune diseases in the Rheumatic area, Anklosing Spondylitis, etc.

  5. Anon[369] • Disclaimer says:

    The Netherlands is also taking the herd immunity approach. I can’t help but notice that in places like Seoul and Wuhan you saw doctors, nurses, medics come in and do what needed to be done and, voilà, problem solved. Meanwhile I see a lot of the medical experts with their MD/PhD/MPH credentials from Boston, NYC, Hopkins— with Indian, Paki, and Arabic surnames— all over TV, social media, and print making sweeping pronouncements and bullshitting about this and that. No wonder our approach looks less smart and efficient like Seoul and Wuhan and more like Calcutta and Cairo. This COVID-19 scare exposed what a mess this country has become due to

  6. George says:

    The Gov should post the crude daily death statistics from all causes for the whole country. Posting anecdotal evidence from 3 places is not useful.

    Is it possible the quarantine itself is killing people? They spend a lifetime in Mediterranean sunshine now they are indoors 100% of the time.

    I read somewhere that Italy was the most aggressive in assigning the cause of death to Coronavirus. In Lombardy there have been 73 242 swab tests, so I think they probably tested all people with a pneumonia.

    Italian Wikipedia article.
    https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandemia_di_COVID-19_del_2020_in_Italia

  7. Gordo says:

    Steve you must have a Dago fan who can translate that article.

    • LOL: M_Young
  8. My SWAG is the Italian death rate figures are abnormally high.

    Again the Diamond Princess being the closest thing i can see to an actual test for death rate where we had numerator and denominator.
    — 3700 passengers
    — 700+ infected
    — 10 (last i read) dead
    this is a little north of 1% for a very elderly skewing population. Just age adjusting that’s something like .1-.2% for a Western age distribution like the US. But Diamond Princess was an elderly population healthy enough to be out cruising, not the “nursing home” types. And they–eventually–all had access to medical care. So real rate will be higher.

    So if Italy is actually getting hammer much worse, this suggests to me that there is something environmentally or culturally or even genetically different going on there:

    — Mediterranean climate, with low winter humidity? Bing weather is telling me it is mostly sunny 50F and 28% relative humidity in Bergamo right now. That sounds like very pleasant winter weather … but also ideal for drying out your respirator passages leaving you susceptible. (I’ll take my Florida beach weather– 82 and partly sunny today, 63% rel. humidity … the low tide is at 3ish, so don’t expect me around here then.)

    — Housing stock? (Ability to heat, humidify?)

    — Touchy feely culture with lots of hugs and kisses.

    — Multi-generational–so all the old people get infected by their young relatives.

    Italy’s big bulge is the 50ish crowd–what we’d call GenX–with the gaping baby bust behind them. But relative to total population they do have a lot of elderly. (More so than the US, where our baby boom is just reaching truly “elderly” status, but mostly of it still basking in the early-mid 60s.)

    Perhaps the factors about life there that lead to Mediterranean regions having some of the world’s longest lived people, leads to a very big elderly cull when something *brand new* rolls through?

    Dry kindling on the forest floor?

  9. Anonymous[358] • Disclaimer says:

    Italy is a dysfunctional place and this crisis removed any pretense otherwise.

    Expat Leo Zagami has been a brutal critic of his countrymen.

    Combine their epic sellout to China with the Italian left wing gov and a schlerotic socialized healthcare system and there’s no way to respond effectively to a massive stress test like this Bat Flu.

    To win against this virus you have to go to war and incoherent Italy really sucks at going to war.

    • Replies: @22pp22
  10. Lot says:

    The worst hit cities have mildly cold winters where it snows a bit but doesn’t stay below freezing a long period. Wuhan, Korea, Tehran, Italy, France, Spain, New York, Seattle.

    Worst hit cities in the north are London and Amsterdam, also with mild winters for how far north they are.

  11. @AnotherDad

    Apparently Italy has a strong anti-vaccine movement, which would already put a lot of strain on the healthcare system in flu season.

  12. As many on here have noted….Sweden seems to be ruled by women and so it remains cough w its legs wide open cough….

    They took in all those foreigners….why restrict your movements….Swedish women need the freedom of movement to go have relations w their Iranian bad boys….

    There’s no doubt it’s bad. The minoritarian mind virus is way more powerful and way, way, way more lethal, than this Chinese thing, and it’s spread from America to be endemic in the West now.

    But historically Swedish men have been a lot badder boys than Persians. I hope there will come a time they rise to the occasion again.

    • Agree: BenKenobi, John Regan
    • Replies: @Anon
  13. UK says:

    Italian genes are not a million miles away from Israeli genes.

    The Italian health care system is probably superior to the Israeli one.

    Their diets are similar enough, as are their life expectancies and general cultures.

    Yet in Italy the mortality rate is almost 10% and in Israel it is 0.1%.

    Nor is Israel alone, the Czech Republic is essentially the same. Germany, Austria and Finland also sit close behind.

    Even the US, while approaching the Italian case rate, has many times fewer deaths.

    Is there some incentive in Italy for doctors to declare deaths as from COVID-19? Or perhaps a third of the total Italian population has had it and the government have noticed the Grim Reaper’s harvest through efficient use of autopsies while missing the rest through inability to test so many?

    I’m still betting on the latter.

  14. I’ve read elsewhere that a quarter of Swedish deaths were Somali born.

  15. prosa123 says:
    @AnotherDad

    Given that the effects in Italy are by far the worst in the northern areas, primarily Lombardy and to a lesser extent Veneto, I’d say the reasons are more environmental than cultural.

    • Replies: @HA
    , @Menschmaschine
  16. Beckow says:

    Sweden has it right. A few other countries have also followed this approach of relative normalcy with extreme isolation of the elderly. Sweden has a lot of post-modern problems, but in this case they have preserved their basic common sense.

    It comes down to the mistaken notion of all being equal. Nature doesn’t understand equality, we invented it. Elderly and already sick are more vulnerable. We know that, so the best approach is to isolate them until Corona blows over or is under control. Everybody else should live a normal life.

    The initial reluctance to admit that the average age of victims is in the late 70’s, or that they had other chronic conditions, came out of the absurd sensitivity to treat all ‘equally’. Well, we are not equal when it comes to diseases and viruses. They are taking down the world economy because the elites can’t admit to the eternal built-in inequality in life.

    • Agree: prosa123
    • Replies: @charlie
  17. 128 says:

    How is it likely to affect that a lot more 30 to 60 year old Americans are obese or have preexisting conditions than Italians? How does being a meth head or a heroin addict affect your chances? What percentage of 30 to 60 year olds are likely to end up in a hospital bed or ICU? Given that your average American is a lot less healthy than your average Northern Italian, no matter what the age?

  18. guest007 says:

    For all the talk about weather, humidity, etc, one needs to explain how Louisiana and Colorado have higher rates of Covid-19 compared to Oklahoma. I would suspect that parts of Colorado and parts of Louisiana get more world traveling jet-setters than any portion of Oklahoma.

    Weather might have some effect but there are many other effects such as demographics, density, culture.

    • Replies: @Federalist
  19. LondonBob says:
    @AnotherDad

    Northern Italy has the worst air pollution in Europe.

    • Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard
  20. epebble says:

    Since Spain is about to pass China (and be behind only to Italy) in number of deaths (2700 so far, 400 per day), is there a Bergamo like study on what fraction of the dead are extremely long lived (compared to rest of Europe)?

    BTW, Some hospitals in Spain are operating above capacity; there are pictures of people resting in corridors. They are probably operating on a Italy like triage already.

  21. HA says:
    @AnotherDad

    “Again the Diamond Princess being the closest thing i can see to an actual test for death rate where we had numerator and denominator.”

    but also an extremely restrictive lockdown, beginning about two weeks after patient zero arrived (and that was an 80-year-old Japanese fellow, who probably didn’t go out clubbing every night, which meant it might have taken a while for the disease to start spreading).

    We’re talking confinement to cabins, delivered meals, and wearing masks. That, too, was part of the equation, in addition to weather, genetics, or anything else one could cite.

    • Replies: @UK
    , @AnotherDad
  22. HA says:
    @prosa123

    “I’d say the reasons are more environmental than cultural.”

    It could be both — northern Italians presumably do a lot more skiing in nearby Austria and Switzerland than Sicilians, and ski vacations seem to have played a big part in spreading this thing around. (Not to mention the many Chinese sweatshop workers cranking out all those handbags and suits in northern Italy. The could have facilitated the spread even if it initially came in by way of Bavaria.)

  23. Anon[320] • Disclaimer says:

    Some details here worth considering.

    Ann is not for the faint of heart, but we here at Unz can cope.

    FYI only, no argument

    https://www.barnhardt.biz/2020/03/24/wait-just-a-damn-minute-italian-figures-are-with-not-from-coronacold-19/

  24. LondonBob says:
    @HA

    The new outbreak in HK is also linked to skiing in northern Italy.

    • Replies: @res
  25. Sean says:

    It is a very widespread phenomenon, which unfortunately also involves 50 and 60 year olds

    The average age of coronavirus disease (COVID-19) patients requiring hospital treatment in Italy is 63 years old. The disease is the result of a bat virus recombined with a virus from a pangolin making the chimea Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2). In SARS-CoV-2, the Angiotensin Converting Enzyme 2 (ACE2) receptor binding domain is from a pangolin, and that component of the chimerical virus is the key to how it enters human cells to infect them.

    In Italy, 73% of those who officially died of COVID-19 as patients had hypertension as a pre existing medical condition. and the treatment for high blood pressure is to put people on ACE inhibitors, which are definitely known to produce upregulation of ACE2. In SARS-CoV-2-infected humans with pre existing high blood pressure, the ACE inhibitors they are on to treat that hypertension are quite possibly pumping their lungs full of the virus and producing pneumonia.

    I believe the thinking in most countries’ governments is that their populations will not obey a total lockdown for long, and because it is going to be necessary have compliance with a lockdown of the utmost severity for a minimum of three weeks, starting before it is necessary would result in it dragging on for months. That would be both unnecessary and lead to it being ignored in the most vital couple of weeks at the end. Sweden is a little behind other countries in the pandemic so it is still too soon for them. They likely are just waiting until they have a tighter window, then they will institute a total lockdown for three weeks. The plan is to separate the sheep from the goats, after which most of the self screened and self isolated population, having passed muster as uninfected, will be able go about their business more or less normally. Hopefully.

    • Thanks: TomSchmidt
    • Replies: @Jane Plain
    , @DPG
  26. UK says:
    @HA

    Patient Zero had symptoms one day before embarking. This meant that he had 14 days of idling around the cruise liner before lockdown.

    • Replies: @HA
  27. Anna says:
    @Lot

    Lot – Where did you get your information about Amsterdam being hard hit? I live here and my understanding is that it’s the southern region of the country that has the lion’s share of cases. I’m not contradicting you – just wondering where you got your info.
    The Dutch death rate is high, though. I believe it’s because they don’t go crazy giving care to old, sick people if they feel it would be useless. I read that if you are over 80, have had two or more major surgeries in past year, you will not be admitted to ICU.

    • Replies: @Lot
    , @Pericles
  28. Mr Mox says:

    We’ve heard a lot of hopeful predictions that maybe the pandemic will cool off when it warms up. But the far northern countries, such as Sweden and Russia, don’t seem all that hard hit so far. Will it stay that way?

    It shall be interesting to see how things progress in the weeks to come. When comparing Sweden and Denmark, both countries has roughly the same number of infected people – about 250 per million, according to worldometers – but in Denmark we have much stricter regulations (schools and public institutions closed, along with restaurants and “close contact” jobs).

    Think of it as a litmus test… or a supersize death pool.

  29. @prosa123

    Air pollution seems to be a hot candidate for this environmental factor, which is not surprising when you are dealing with a virus that attacks the lungs. Northern Italy has the worst air quality in Europe – Italians even before Corona were more than 3 times as likely to suffer from respiratory problems than other Europeans.

    It also fits well with the other hot spots: Air pollution in Wuhan is, like in other Chinese cities, still a big problem and Iran has according to one ranking 4 of the 10 cities worldwide with the worst air quality. Ironically, the lockdowns might help the situation indirectly by shutting down factories and so reducing air pollutinon.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  30. Morris39 says:

    What about USA/Canada comparison? Infection rate and deaths per capita are 3 x higher in US. The absolute numbers of tests done in Canada exceed that of US.
    For some reason these facts do not seem newsworthy despite the socio- economic similarities.

  31. JRB says:
    @Lot

    That is correct. It’s now very clear that the virus is at its most virulent with temperatures between 5 and 12 degrees Celsius. For the moment you are wrong about Amsterdam, at the moment the number of deaths there is quite limited. see https://www.rivm.nl/coronavirus-kaart-van-nederland-per-gemeente

  32. @Sean

    ” making the chimea”

    Not a troll question: do you mean “chimera”?

    • Replies: @Sean
  33. Has anyone else been thinking, “Wow, this modern civilization has really done a good job at keeping the co-morbidly, obese octogenarian crowd around a lot longer than it seems like nature wants.”

    Asking for a friend: is the co-morbidity issue overstated or understated?

  34. @Lot

    Agreed that weather seems to be important and extremes seem to matter.
    Deserts, tropics, frozen tundra – not seeing so much action.
    Far too little is being made of the -biodiversity- of viruses. Faster the spread, more the diversity. More the diversity, the more the especially virulent strains will get crowded out.
    Comparisons of 2020:1918, 2020:541 … apples/orange. Faster spread, faster flame-out.

  35. @HA

    It could be both — northern Italians presumably do a lot more skiing in nearby Austria and Switzerland

    I’ve been to these areas.

    There is little reason for the northern Italians to go skiing en masse in Austria or Switzerland.

    The Italian Alps and Dolomites are really that good.

    • Replies: @HA
    , @LondonBob
  36. Speaking of masks:

    Meanwhile, the diversity hire Surgeon General and the tards at the CDC are telling Americans, “Oh masks don’t work, don’t bother.”

  37. HA says:
    @Neoconned

    “As many on here have noted….Sweden seems to be ruled by women”

    There is presumably an awareness in Sweden that in times of crisis, women are tasked with raising children, and are unable to continue working, as The Atlantic has noted.

    Recall also that the leftist Guardian initially gave its blessing to Boris Johnson’s “herd immunity” approach (which is basically what Sweden has chosen), before Johnson opted for stricter measures, and the Guardian itself printed furious denunciations of the earlier policy.

    However, I suspect Vox or some left-wing or Koch-funded libertarian think tank will soon release a paper claiming that quarantines and lockdowns and the reduced GDP are going to kill more than the virus would (and that the people who benefit most from such lockdown measures are elderly white Beckys and Karens, holed up in the suburbs with a year’s worth of toilet paper hoarded away in the sewing room).

    In other words, I wouldn’t be surprised to see some interesting convergences between the right-wing #coronahoax crowd and old-school leftists eager to see a bustling vibrancy return to the economy and to the city streets.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    , @Neoconned
  38. @HA

    but also an extremely restrictive lockdown,

    Agree. But that’s irrelevant to my case.

    Listing the 3700 on board number i was just giving the background. Was not trying to say anything about what the final infection rate would be like in the general population. Ignore that number if you like.

    But i’m talking about the death rate. It’s the lone place where we know both the numerator and the denominator. And right now–a month later–we’ve had 10 our of 712 infected. That’s 1.4% in a very elderly skewing population–but with medical care.

    331 of the infected–almost half–had no symptoms.

    • Replies: @415 reasons
  39. But the far northern countries, such as Sweden and Russia, don’t seem all that hard hit so far. Will it stay that way?

    The authorities seem to brutally repress any info on race or possibly relevant background factors of victims. It is not surprising that peoples in regions where widespread winter influenza and cold outbreaks are common might have more resistance. In terms of Lombardy, it can’t be lost on anyone that 67k Chinese are were counted among its 10m people, and that is before considering how top-heavy Italy’s age distribution is was. All this ignores the possibility there are a couple of strains working their way through the world: The more lethal L strain and a less lethal S strain.

    • Replies: @guest007
  40. @AnotherDad

    Severity could be related to viral dose, which could be related to lockdown conditions. Fomites on your delivered meal that you rub in your eye is probably a lot lower dose than sharing a room with a coughing, dying patient in a nursing home.

  41. The ignorance of most of you boneheads insures that nothing of value, no change for the better, will come out of this.

    Yes, I think an efficient free-market solution is the answer to the coronavirus. Simple. Any fool knows that.

  42. Should stay that way, unless they start letting in lots of Chinese, from Wuhan province in particular.

  43. B36 says:

    Within the United States it’s striking that Texas, the second most populous state, has had relatively fewer cases and deaths than a number of other, smaller states. Maybe testing hasn’t been as widespread or for whatever reason the virus got there later. But Houston is said to be the most diverse city in the country and has a large immigrant population from Asia. DFW by one measure is the fourth largest metropolitan area in the country and has had only 7 deaths as of today.
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2020/mar/21/coronavirus-map-us-latest-cases-state-by-state

    • Replies: @HA
  44. @HA

    One doesn’t hear the words libertarian or laissez-faire applied to Sweden very often, certainly not from Americans, and as an insult, no less.

    Roland Huntford wrote almost fifty years ago, critically if I remember right, about Sweden’s policy of letting dying industries simply die, even killing them, rather than prop them up like almost everyone else did. This was seen rather vividly with Saab the last decade, in contrast to the socialist/fascist régime that saved the rest of General Motors.

    Perhaps this is their thinking here. Let the 92s, 96s, and 99s go to meet their Maker.

    If Sweden has been spared thus far, it may be that Swedes have been treating Asia with caution after that little incident in 2004:

    The wave Sweden will never forget

    The sale of Saab to the Chinese fell through.

  45. @AnotherDad

    Another key ingredient to Northern Italy’s high number. There’s a significant Chinese immigrant population there. Some of them returned to Wuhan to celebrate their New Year. They then returned to Northern Italy, and then a few weeks later, the infection rate shot up.

    One factor among several, but one that shouldn’t be so easily ignored.

    • Replies: @Mr McKenna
  46. @Reg Cæsar

    Understand the observation, but on the whole, why is it such a bad thing for a nation to save key segments of their GNP? The less you save, ultimately down the road the nation is in trouble. Example: perhaps it would’ve been a good thing if the US had decided not to outsource making face masks, ventilators, and pharmaceuticals ( of the life saving kind), but instead decided that they were important to be saved and continue to be manufactured in the US.

    Exactly why we’re all supposed to look to such an irrelevant nation for maintaining GNP is beyond basic comprehension. especially as it doesn’t have as many national businesses to save in the first place (when compared to nations like the US)

    Perhaps just as Steve’s title seems to imply, Northern Italy and Sweden are the outliers regarding the virus. It would do well to find a nation that is between the two, and designate that as the median for the rest of the world.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  47. HA says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    “Let the 92s, 96s, and 99s go to meet their Maker.”

    That made for quite a shocker in that movie Midsommar (look up “midsommar elderly cliff scene” if you don’t care about spoilers), where it’s pretty Nordic/Aryan people taking the place of the toothless rednecks who are the usual baddies in the back-country horror genre.

    See also the wikipedia entryon senicide. That’s another word that’s going to see some more usage over the coming weeks and months.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  48. HA says:
    @B36

    “Within the United States it’s striking that Texas, the second most populous state, has had relatively fewer cases and deaths than a number of other, smaller states.”

    Apart from a mild climate, so that fewer people are stuck indoors, there are few buses and subways, more people locked away in cars, and low population density in general. It’s also not skiing country. All that should slow down the spread initially, so I don’t find this surprising, but if the virus makes it into the schools before summer vacation, I expect things could get serious.

  49. George says:

    My guess is the (white) Swedes asked themselves if they could really communicate and enforce a quarantine in bomb throwing Malmo and other places in multi culti Sweden. The answer was no so they decided not to pretend.

    In the US there are already videos of cops busting and in some cases beating down kids for quarantine violations. IMO the best reason to desert Chinese quarantine policies is multi culti USA cannot enforce them without constant violence. What happens if a cop has to shoot someone and there is a riot?

  50. I find it really strange that we can make so little sense for how this epidemic is spreading and how and why people may die from it.

    Humidity? Temperature? Social distancing? Masks? Genetic susceptibility?

    For every hypothesis, there seem to be ample counterexamples.

    It’s going to take a long time to make out what’s really going on here.

    • Agree: epebble
    • Replies: @epebble
    , @AnotherDad
  51. res says:
    @LondonBob

    More skiers in HK.
    https://www.scmp.com/news/world/united-states-canada/article/3075646/coronavirus-international-alert-hong-kong-skiers

    Those cases were from Whistler (Vancouver, BC). Is there more COVID-19 in Vancouver than we thought?

    P.S. Any links to the Italy connection? I did not see anything in a quick search.

  52. Corvinus says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Do some i-Steve NOTICING.

    Trump’s daily coronavirus briefings are putting doctors in a bad light. They are generally opposed to “reopening America” at the height of a global public health crisis. But American corporations are in Trump’s ear saying “you cannot allow them to destroy our precious economy”. So who wins out?

    Trump, by choosing not to use the Defense Production Act to enable production of medical supplies, is now jeopardizing the health of the very citizens who voted him into office.

    It is in THIS context we have Trump spreading disinformation the CDC and other health officials have ultimately had to walk back. His plan is that he will take credit for anything good and blame others for anything bad. Bottom line? Trump is no longer listening to doctors as evident by his pronouncement that by Easter we are “open for business”. So imagine a 5% CFR and 50% infection rate (meaning 1 in 2 Americans get coronavirus, but only 1 in 20 die). That would mean 8.25 million deaths. Is that preferable to many Americans just so we can watch sportsball up close and personal AND eat at Hardy’s without today’s precautions?

  53. Lot says:
    @Anna

    Sorry, I conflated Netherlands having a high rate with Amsterdam itself.

    PS: I loved my visits to your country!

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    , @Anna
  54. @Corvinus

    You’re basically saying that the trouble with Trump is he’s not fascist enough.

  55. @Lot

    Sorry, I conflated Netherlands having a high rate with Amsterdam itself.

    Nothing is high in the Netherlands, except the tourists. And the VAT.

    • LOL: Lot
    • Replies: @Anna
  56. guest007 says:
    @The Alarmist

    Sweden has had over 2000 deaths in a county of of 10 million. That is equivalent to 60k cases in the U.S. on a per capita basis. Not exactly an example of a country going it right.

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
  57. HA says:
    @UK

    “This meant that he had 14 days of idling around the cruise liner before lockdown.”

    True, but I suspect that idling around in the open air or in his cabin spreads the virus at a different rate than spending nights boogieing down in the ship’s karaoke bar and disco.

    He was an 80-year-old Japanese man so I’m guessing option A is more likely. Admittedly, the waiter who served him might have been more active socially, or the man might have been a disgusting boor who had no qualms about sneezing into the Thousand Island dressing and on anyone else nearby, but that just means there’s a number of unknowns here that could have drastically changed the final tallies one way or another, which limits any efforts to extrapolate what happened there to the rest of the planet.

  58. @HA

    Senicide is uncomfortably close in sound to Sinicide. That makes it as perilous as niggardly.

    https://www.johnderbyshire.com/Opinions/Culture/niggardly.html

    • Replies: @David
    , @HA
  59. HA says:
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    “The Italian Alps and Dolomites are really that good.”

    A good point, and it’s my understanding that Colorado snow is in general much softer than the knee-crunching hard-pack one finds in the Alps (which explains how Vail became a big coronavirus launching pad) but I suspect there were at least a couple of Lombards lounging around Ischgl for reasons other than the skiing. Sure, they had lots of pretty women at home just like they had good skiing, but for some men like some variety every now and then, and will go out of their way to encounter it.

    Also, even Italian Alps have the same combination of runny noses and mucus-stiffening cold that other ski resorts have, and for whatever reason, ski lodges from Vail to Hoikkaido seem to have had a hand in spreading this particular virus.

    But that’s all conjecture, admittedly, and your point may prove to be the more relevant one.

    • Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard
  60. Anon[567] • Disclaimer says:
    @AnotherDad

    The word is historically. The last of the bad boys left Sweden for Russia and the Byzantine Empire a thousand years ago leaving only slaves and downtrodden proles. Sweden hasn’t fought a war since 1630. It’s a country of ultra liberal SJWs who voted in the earliest socialism 130 years ago because Swedish men have no confidence they can take care of themselves.

    They are much more peaceful and law abiding than American blacks, but they have the same dependency mindset on the local lord or master tradesman as American blacks have on government.

    Nowadays the Swedes are no longer dependent on the landlord who owns their tenant farms, or their master but on the government for everything. Nordic supremacy is a 19th century myth. They are the wimpiest of all European men.

    • Replies: @Pericles
    , @Anon 2
  61. @OscarWildeLoveChild

    Great question.

    If (IF) this is truly no more lethal than the flu for anyone under 70, then even better questions remain: who started the idea that this was the second coming of the Black Death, and why?

    Is there a small (but real) chance this is some incredible psy-op?

    I doubt it, but . . .

    • Replies: @AnotherDad
  62. Anna says:
    @Lot

    It’s a small place! 17 million in a place size of my native state (MA). I got a bit uneasy because I find the news overly managed here. Having said that, the Dutch really pride themselves on being common sensual/grounded and they are very self reliant when it comes to health.

  63. Anon[567] • Disclaimer says:
    @AnotherDad

    Winter is over. It’s the first week of spring. Boston US is 1,200 miles north of Bergamo Italy and the weather today is the same. It’s 50F in Bergamo and 48F in Boston and sunny in both cities. Bergamo doesn’t have mild Mediterranean winters. It’s closer to Switzerland than it is to Rome. It’s in far northern Italy in the mountains with cold snowy winters typical of all mountain winters.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
  64. epebble says:
    @candid_observer

    Yes; this tricky bugger disproves every hypotheses anyone can think of, very convincingly. We have to be afraid. Based on its trickiness, it is good to suppose there won’t be much immunity against reinfection, this or next season. Also, it may be good to assume the incubation period may not always be less than 14 days. Some of them may be inactive for longer term and flare up (like Varicella Zoster).

  65. @Anna

    Dutch men are the tallest in the world, I hear. Anna lives in heaven.

  66. utu says:

    Niall Ferguson on March 15

    http://www.niallferguson.com/journalism/history/the-first-coronavirus-error-was-keeping-calm
    The puzzle is why this is not already happening. Between December 1 and February 5, roughly the same number of direct flights went from Wuhan to Rome (28) and Paris (23) as went to San Francisco and New York (23 each). Indeed, according to research by network scientists at Northeastern University in Massachusetts, America was the fifth most likely country to import Covid-19 from China, after Thailand, Japan, Taiwan and South Korea. The risk for Italy was substantially less. Moreover, according to a new paper from the same team, America should have begun to see local generation of more than 50 infections per day sooner than Italy.

  67. LondonBob says:
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    Dolomites have some excellent WWI trenches.

  68. HA says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    I guess I probably should have cleared it with this guy too.

  69. DPG says:
    @Sean

    Biology/chemistry layperson here. If I understand your comment correctly, the virus attaches to cell membranes in the same place where ACE2 would. Normally there would be more ACE2 floating around, attaching itself to the body’s cells, but the ACE inhibitors prevent that from happening, freeing up a lot more cells to get infected by the virus. Is that correct?

    • Replies: @Sean
  70. @LondonBob

    Northern Italy has the worst air pollution in Europe.

    This makes sense.

    Turin is Italy’s industrial capital. Milan and other hard hit areas in Lombardy are downwind from Turin, which is in the Piedmont.

  71. LondonBob says:

    To be fair Swedes practice social distancing as normal day to day behaviour, then add in that most of the country live in isolated small towns, villages and hamlets, and I think they are most of the way there already. My uncle is safely on his farm in the middle of nowhere, I suggested if my mother was really concerned she could go there for the next few months.

  72. @JRB

    That is correct. It’s now very clear that the virus is at its most virulent with temperatures between 5 and 12 degrees Celsius.

    I would add that I’ve always felt that the temperature swings in the shoulder seasons are the hardest on the system versus the steady highs in summer and lows in winter. So, it makes sense that corona and other virii would spread more easily at those times and temps.

  73. Pericles says:
    @Anna

    The Dutch death rate is high, though. I believe it’s because they don’t go crazy giving care to old, sick people if they feel it would be useless.

    “So this is Mr Slootgarden. Hmm. Hmm. I see that you seem to be struggling quite a bit with breathing at this point, Mr Slootgarden. It looks quite uncomfortable. Would you perhaps prefer our euthanasia option? Yes, I see. Wise choice. Please sign here.”

  74. guest007 says:

    Steve,

    I saw this articles about black skiers and Covid-19 and I thought of you immediately. It fits all of your epidemiological theories.

    https://www.theroot.com/exclusive-a-black-organization-held-one-of-americas-bi-1842473509

  75. Pericles says:
    @Anon

    Sweden hasn’t fought a war since 1630.

    Oh dear, sounds like it’s time for a refresher on Swedish history. Online class perhaps?

    • Replies: @Kibernetika
  76. Lagertha says:
    @OscarWildeLoveChild

    And, why Iran? How did Iran get such a high amount of cases?

    • Replies: @anon
  77. Corvinus says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    “You’re basically saying that the trouble with Trump is he’s not fascist enough.”

    That would be a strawman on your part. Try to address my comment substantively next time.

  78. I was pondering the nature of skiing holidays (or weekends for those living near the slopes). Many in Europe seem to go on pretty low budget/ group excursion with friends type trips. Hire a chalet, pack it full of people – several to a room – all eat and drink together each evening.

    People struggle on with a cold and have lots of chance to share food, beer bottles, glasses etc.

  79. @candid_observer

    Don’t know candid, i’d say to first order:

    CoVid-19’s general behavior and character is much like the seasonal cold and flu, but with
    — completely unexposed population with zero immunity
    — much more virulent for those with various sorts of lung issues
    — 10-50X more lethal

    Around that there’s a lot of noise but that’s mostly it–super flu, that’s a grandpa killer, especially frail smoker grandpa killer.

  80. Another random thought – has anyone looked at the density of people in their workplace? From recollection when I’ve been on business trips to Germany and Sweden the offices were far more spacious than those in London and Italy. Limited sample of course.

  81. Carol says:
    @Corvinus

    Those doctors, nurses, PAs in the front lines could walk out any time, if they aren’t already sick. They don’t have to keep risking their lives with inadequate protection.

    So there’s that.

    • Replies: @Lagertha
    , @Corvinus
  82. Anon87 says:

    Comparing Italian year over year deaths is a good point. Testing data is unreliable, and now people are assuming WuFlu has been spreading in the US since Jan, so data is unclear. But similar to crime data, Steve always points out it’s hard to miss a dead body and get a fairly accurate count.

    So is it possible to compare the death totals of WuFlu, “regular” flu for this season, and especially compare against the rough 2017-18 flu season which took out 80k Americans? I can’t seem to find all the common data to plot it.

  83. @Paul Jolliffe

    If (IF) this is truly no more lethal than the flu for anyone under 70, then even better questions remain: who started the idea that this was the second coming of the Black Death, and why?

    CoVid-19 is <i>considerably more lethal than the flu for people under 70. (Ok, not for children, but definitely for adults beyond say 30.) It’s just that the flu generally isn’t very lethal, unless you are old, sick, have lung issues.

    CoVid-19 just has an even more drastic age skew as well as being more lethal.

    One issue here, is that because this is brand new–ergo specific–you test and find some 44 year old has it but has very mild symptoms and people go “it’s whimpy”.

    But that goes on all the time with the flu. You are exposed, don’t get sick, or have a day of scratching throat and are fine. Way more people “have the flu” as in are exposed and have the flu virus in them, then there are who are exposed and feel like they “have the flu.”

    The whole CoVid-19 discussion is full of stats and claims and analogies that have issues summed up by “selection effect”.

    • Replies: @Paul Jolliffe
  84. Lagertha says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    Oh, Reg, he is absolutely suggesting that, hahaa! – the hypocrisy and sinister intentions of liberals is not even hidden from the rubes anymore. But, I want them to all keep it up: more people will see that the intention of Democrats is to destroy the economy so they can usher in their wet-dream (release their “wet market Pangolin/infested” disease on the still, unaware and innocent American public) of a totalitarian surveillance state, headed by them! But, the funny thing is: NYC, LA & SF, and many Democrat-controlled states are hit the hardest! They are setting up the deaths of their own voters! People are realizing that.

    Eventually, rioting and looting will start by poor people. He tries to blame Trump, but he, in 2015, decided not to order 40,000 ventilators and pandemic equipment. So, he is losing his mind because Orange Man.

  85. gcochran says:
    @AnotherDad

    It’s because they ran out of icu slots, which is going to happen to anyone that doesn’t get this under control. Death rate goes up from around 1.3% with good care ( South Korea, Diamond Princess, Switzerland & US thus far) to something over 5% when overflow occurs.

  86. Sean says:
    @Jane Plain

    Yes, sorry. A bit about the UK. My 53 year old cousin, by no means a jetsetter but an outgoing type, with high blood pressure,was in bed for a week with COVID-19. He lives just outside Greater London. A rumor last week that that the capital was about to be Wuhaned (ie sealed off), led to thousands fleeing north, some as far as Scottish islands. Half of UK deaths to date are in London. The UK deaths announced yesterday were a 19% increase, todays are a 26% increase (84 people including a 33 year old) and bring UK deaths to 422, all excess deaths killed by COVID-19 , not merely dying of something else while infected with SARS-CoV-2.

    The most alarming portent is the median age of COVID-19 patients in the UK is 64, while in Italy it’s 63. In Germany they are 46, even though Germany has the oldest population in Europe. It seems to me that elderly Germans were relatively un-infected because they were extremely cautious when they heard about the original outbreak in Germany, which was the Bavarian outbreak that was quickly traced isolated. There were no new SARS-CoV-2-infected people reported between 11 February and 27 February in Germany, which may have caused complacency and be partially responsible for the particularly sharp spike in deaths Germany has been experiencing.

    Bearing in mind that it takes a little less than a month to die of COVID-19 and the first such death in Germany was on 8 March, I would expect the daily German deaths to decline precipitously starting 5 April. I think Germany is going to let off very lightly at the end of the day. The Germans are very tasked by environmental threats such as nuclear pollution. In the 2009 H1N1 influenza scare, there was uproar about the flu jab available to the German public being not the very best available. Rudolf Virchow said epidemics were social in origin, and the way to combat epidemics was political, not medical.

    He was also the originator of ideas about inflammation’s role. There is quite a lot of interest in the connection between immune activation, depression, and social withdrawal from the Darwinian standpoint (Bullmore 2018). We get more inflamed as we get older and fatter. Hence all the beer and sausages (or potatoes in Sweden) make for inflammation, which leaves elderly Germans more pessimistic, contemplating their own demise, and socially reclusive than the equivalent Italian? Or English person?

  87. @Reg Cæsar

    If Sweden has been spared thus far, it may be that Swedes have been treating Asia with caution after that little incident in 2004:

    The numbers mean nothing since Sweden stopped doing tests long ago. It’s strange how a lot of people here have realized that Sweden just makes up crime statistics but haven’t realized that Sweden does the same at pretty much everything. No data, no problem is also the attitude of the rest of Scandinavia and Germany so their numbers can’t be trusted either.

    Even deaths can be covered up because a lot of people who die are going to be elderly who haven’t been tested and they’re not planning to test most of the dead. Curiously the people who are dying after being tested positive are disproportionately migrants

    https://www.thelocal.se/20200310/timeline-how-the-coronavirus-has-developed-in-sweden

    “Thirty-three people have died so far after testing positive for the new coronavirus, including 15 in Stockholm. Of those, at least six were Somali-Swedes, a board member of an association for Somali-Swedish medical doctors in Sweden told public broadcaster SVT’s current affairs programme Agenda.”

    Instead of locking down they country they simply advised people on social distancing and a lot of the “new Swedes” decided to just ignore the advice. They’re blaming language skills and lack of information but mysteriously the lack of language skills doesn’t seem to hurt East Asian and East European migrants in the same way. I’m seeing various migrant groups behave in rather different ways on the streets of supposedly locked down Helsinki, too, and it’s all very predictable to isteve readers….

    I suspect that it turns out that Sweden is in fact doing it right that shielding the elderly instead of shutting down the economy is better in the end but it doesn’t mean that the disease is sparing Sweden or that the low numbers mean anything, to the contrary, they’ve decided to let it spread and to keep their estimates of the real number secret. We’ll maybe know them after the epidemic once they start publishing studies – but only if it does turn out to be the right bet.

    If corona turns out to be deadlier then it will be the thing that pops the entire “Scandinavian model” bubble. People abroad have been making the mistake of trusting Scandinavian governments and their invented statistics because Scandinavian people are honest in person.

  88. Lagertha says:
    @Carol

    People who are at home are encouraged to volunteer to drive for meals, babysit, etc. But, the media pushed this freak-out so much that who the hell is gonna bother? And, I expect first responders and many nurses/doctors to burn out.

    So, the media is to blame. They’ve scared the daylights (literally) out of people. Once this disease takes hold of the people (and their children) who blame Trump, maybe there is some chance politicizing disease stops, but it may be too late for the American people to care – the hunkering down and avoiding people will be normalized….no to mention distrusting the venal Democrat Congress, or Democrat governors, senators, etc., who are such whiny little bitches. People hate to feel doomed, and they can smell bullshit. So, the feckless, deceitful Democrats better vote for the “package” today; Merkel got 1.18 trillion Euros approved! – Democrats must pass the trillions that USA needs – if they don’t, they will lose the House, Senate, presidency for the next 30 years.

    OT: I found it hilarious that rich New Yorkers escaped to their vacation homes in the Hamptons, and Jersey Shore….and the locals absolutely hate them – these jerks went to the beach and parks in droves; and bought out all toilet paper and hoarded food. Wyoming & Montana, kicked out all non-state residents, closed all resorts, and, if you have a home there, no one is providing you with any services door-to-door in the canyons. First victim was a driver for some asshole NYC family – all affected in MT & WY are recovering.

  89. @HA

    …I suspect there were at least a couple of Lombards lounging around Ischgl for reasons other than the skiing. Sure, they had lots of pretty women at home just like they had good skiing, but for some men like some variety every now and then, and will go out of their way to encounter it.

    Quite, my good man, quite:

    Also, even Italian Alps have the same combination of runny noses and mucus-stiffening cold that other ski resorts have, and for whatever reason, ski lodges from Vail to Hoikkaido seem to have had a hand in spreading this particular virus.

    True. As has been discussed on other comment threads, ski lodges are not very sanitary, particularly in the dining and restroom areas. It’s even worse at peak hours during peak season because there is no lodge I’ve ever seen that is designed to easily accommodate those levels of customer influx.

    • Thanks: HA
  90. Lagertha says:
    @Jaakko Raipala

    If corona turns out to be deadlier then it will be the thing that pops the entire “Scandinavian model” bubble. People abroad have been making the mistake of trusting Scandinavian governments and their invented statistics because Scandinavian people are honest in person.

    With every few months, the reality of the “Scandinavian Model,” being an illusion, hopefully will dent the appetite of Democrats/socialists in the USA, and stop incessantly touting this model. I am so sick and tired of people who elevate the Nordic countries without knowing anything about the reality that you speak of.

  91. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    There are nearly a half million of them, and the MSM have studiously ignored that fact, because it doesn’t fit their preferred narrative. The only facts the MSM will play up are those which fit into the eventual retconning of the virus as Made in America, probably by Trump. And the entire goal of the virus is to oppress POCs.

    Extra fun: the ‘superspreader’ party in Westport, which the NYT is also furiously trying to ‘manage’. They’re being so cagey and insistent that I have to wonder if it’s connected to New Rochelle, which has dropped out of the news almost entirely.

    https://www.thechronicle.com.au/news/super-spreader-party-caused-40-fold-infection-spik/3980635/

    They could have shut this one down except for the fact that people keep chatting on Facebook about it. And there’s a South Africa connection, FWIW.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
  92. @Jaakko Raipala

    The numbers mean nothing since Sweden stopped doing tests long ago. It’s strange how a lot of people here have realized that Sweden just makes up crime statistics but haven’t realized that Sweden does the same at pretty much everything. No data, no problem is also the attitude of the rest of Scandinavia and Germany so their numbers can’t be trusted either.

    This is a great point. I was having thoughts in this direction earlier today.

    In our new, vibrant, multi-ethnic societies, it is absolutely imperative that accurate race and ethnicity data is available during pandemics like this one. It is also critical to collect accurate data about causes of death and comorbidities.

    Accurate, timely data is critical so the professionals can assemble a clear picture of reality and respond to it with an effective plan of action.

    Unfortunately, thanks to the Woke idiots destroying the Western world and their (((Megaphone))), the data has gone precisely in the opposite direction.

    Here in Clown World the data is made up, or of such low quality that it may as well be made up. Meanwhile, the same people responsible for the shit data want to play politics with aid for the tens of millions of people who were abruptly laid off.

    Many of those tens of millions are not high-skill workers, and their prospects of immediate re-employment dim with each hour.

  93. trelane says:

    Corona-chan approves and loves Swedish policy. Very good!

    Wouldn’t it be the smart thing to do right now to visit your elderly parents?

    So silly to wear face masks in public isn’t it? Silly!!!

    Corona-chan loves you, I want to be a part of you, to be one with you. I love you oh so much!

  94. @Anon

    I’ll tell you something interesting that I’ve noticed.

    In recent weeks, I’ve noticed that the physician “experts” being displayed on our television are a very “diverse” group.

    I counted the ethnicity of the physicians that I’ve seen on tv over the last several days.

    Out of 14 physicians, 8 were Indian. 2 were East Asian (both women). 2 were Black. 1 was White Gentile (Dr. Fauci). There was 1 more, who could’ve been White Gentile or Jewish (hard to tell).

    So 57% Indian, 14% Asian, 14% Black, 14% White.

    According to sources that I consulted, Indians form 8-10% of the physicians in America. Roughly 10% are East Asian. 14% of physicians are Jewish. 65% are White, so presumably 51% are White Gentile (65 -14 = 51). 6% are Black. 7% are Hispanic.

    So Indian physicians are over represented by a factor of 6-7x.
    Blacks are over represented by factor of almost 2.5x.
    East Asians are over represented by a factor of almost 1.5x.
    Whites are under represented by a factor of 4-5x.

    There were no Hispanics, but I suppose Fauci (Italian-American) is sort of Hispanic.

    So if we set White representation to 1, Indian physicians are around 30x more likely to be on television. Blacks are 11x more likely to be on tv. East Asians are 6-7x more likely.

    That’s rather strange.

    It’s rather strange that out 14 leading physicians on television, only 1 was maybe Jewish. Maybe.

    Sure, the sample size is small (N=14), but you have to wonder.

    Keep in mind that the figures above only refer to the physician population. So even if certain groups are over represented as physicians, there’s no reason why they would be further over represented as physicians who are on tv.

    One gets the feeling that something strange is happening behind the scenes.

    • Replies: @Unladen Swallow
  95. charlie says:
    @Beckow

    Yes, agree Sweden has it right.

    Then again probably better to tell people to stay at home — anything you touch might kill you outside — is better than explaining that if you’re overweight you’re at risk.

  96. Neoconned says:
    @HA

    Only Swedish women arent having amy kids but as you note they’ll use tjat excuse to take time off work and get paid fpr it…

    Anyway, if some of these numbers are correct w older folks dying off globally expect A LOTTA insurance policies to start paying out for both increased hospital usage and death payouts….

    Imagine if 100k plus older ppl w $500k insurance policies die & the payout covenants are activated….now would be a good time to short insurance(especially life insurance) companies and re-insurance firms….ive read Bermuda is big in the re-insurance business…..their small economy is probably about to get hosed…..

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  97. A decent source of Euro news in English is thelocal.com. Aimed at expats. They have sub-sites for a bunch of countries: thelocal.se, the local.it, .de, .fr, .dk, .es, etc. Unfortunately not for the Netherlands. Because of the pandemic, they’ve made critical content paywall-free.

    An example: https://www.thelocal.se/20200324/while-most-of-europe-is-in-lockdown-sweden-is-going-its-own-way

  98. @Anon

    Meanwhile I see a lot of the medical experts with their MD/PhD/MPH credentials from Boston, NYC, Hopkins— with Indian, Paki, and Arabic surnames— all over TV, social media, and print making sweeping pronouncements and bullshitting about this and that. No wonder our approach looks less smart and efficient like Seoul and Wuhan and more like Calcutta and Cairo.

    The rot starts at the top. The biggest bullshitter is our Commander-in-Chief.

    Not to mention Fox News, which (the last time I checked) is overwhelmingly White and Conservative.

    Most of the Indians I see on tv are actually pretty critical of Trump’s response. When it comes to bullshitting, I suppose Trump can even outdo an Indian.

    As can Jerry Falwell Jr.

    • Agree: Corvinus
  99. @JohnnyWalker123

    Have you seen ads on TV lately? If you thought TV was representative of the country as a whole you’d imagine half the doctors, dentists, pharmacists, judges, lawyers, and accountants in the country were black women, not black people generally, just black women.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
  100. anon[321] • Disclaimer says:
    @Lagertha

    How did Iran get such a high amount of cases?

    Well…

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
  101. @Pericles

    Poltava comes to mind. Wonder how the Italian Alpini are faring during the pandemic? They’re some of the best soldiers in the army (certainly among the fittest), and the majority of them are geographically in the thick of it.

  102. Corvinus says:
    @Carol

    “Those doctors, nurses, PAs in the front lines could walk out any time, if they aren’t already sick. They don’t have to keep risking their lives with inadequate protection.”

    Except they took an oath to help the sick. Walking out at any time would be cowardly. And what is the factor why they have inadequate protection? That is the larger, and more important, question.

    • Replies: @Kaz
    , @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
  103. Kaz says:
    @Corvinus

    Because we outsourced all of our critical production out apparently..

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    , @anon
  104. @JohnnyWalker123

    What happens when nothing happens? It’s actually a great “reverse” Diamond Princess experiment.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  105. Anon 2 says:

    Compared to Poland and the rest of Central Europe, Sweden is doing rather
    poorly. Here are the data based on the latest worldometers stats:

    Sweden (10 mln pop) 36 dead 3.6 dead/1 mln pop

    Poland (40 mln pop) 10 dead 0.25 dead/1 mln pop

    Czechia (10 mln pop) 3 dead 0.3 dead/1 mln pop

    Thus Sweden is doing about 14 times more poorly than Poland (and the rest
    of the Visegrad group). So the question should be: Why are Western Europe
    and Sweden coping so poorly with the CV outbreak relative to Central
    Europe? Part of the answer is that Poland, Czechia, etc are coherent,
    homogeneous, no-nonsense countries which can produce a decisive response
    in dealing with a lethal danger.

    Interestingly, the Angel of Death also largely passed over Poland during
    the Black Death epidemic (ca.1350).

  106. Corvinus says:
    @Kaz

    “Because we outsourced all of our critical production out apparently.”

    So where is the Trump Administration to the rescue?

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
  107. @Mr McKenna

    Another question that should be (but won’t) asked, exactly what are half a million Chinese doing living in Northern Italy? Is Malmo, Sweden, or Reykjavik, Iceland next on the list? One would expect that they’d head for the UK, what with Hong Kong connection and all. But what and why exactly are they in
    Northern Italy? From an Italian/Lombard region, cultural, political, etc. there’s no real connection.

    As a lot of things the US has imported in recent decades, it should be shouted from the rooftops:

    “COVID-19

    Made in China”

    And that’s the key point. Come to think of it, Bird flu, Swine flu, SAARS were also Made in China. For a nation that has an allegedly high national IQ, one would think that maintaining a high level of sanitary conditions for its population would have been first on the list. But, perhaps one doesn’t naturally equate sanitary conditions with China (the way some might do with Japan).

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  108. Corvinus says:
    @OscarWildeLoveChild

    What happens if people die? Will Falwell Jr be arrested and charged with murder? That’s right, the power of prayer wards off sickness.

    https://www.foxnews.com/health/couple-who-prayed-for-healing-plead-guilty-in-babys-death

    • Replies: @OscarWildeLoveChild
  109. Sean says:
    @DPG

    Clinical findings in a group of patients infected with the 2019 novel coronavirus (SARS-Cov-2) outside of Wuhan, China: retrospective case series I do not know.

    https://www.cleveland.com/news/2020/03/ace2-how-researchers-think-coronavirus-attacks-cells-and-how-it-could-be-stopped.html
    Q: What is the theoretical relationship between ACE2 and COVID-19?

    A: SARS and the virus that causes COVID-19, SARS-CoV-2, are very similar in genetic makeup. Both have the spike that would connect to the receptor. That’s where the coronavirus gets its name; corona means crown in Latin, and the virus has crown-like spikes.

    Linda Saif, a virologist and distinguished university professor at Ohio State University, wrote in an email that several studies have reported that SARS CoV-2 has higher affinity for binding to ACE2 than SARS and this contributes to its more efficient transmission in humans.

    Two thirds of those who require hospital treatment for COVID-19 (excluding those unfortunate old folk who may need it but are being turned a blind eye to) are already getting treatment for hypertension, anther third diabetes and the last third have cardiovascular disease. My reading of the above letter is that the ACE inhibitors are commonly prescribed for all the aforementioned pre existing conditions.

    Q: What about people taking blood pressure medication?

    A: It’s complicated. The theory is that taking ACE inhibitors may increase a body’s ACE2, giving the disease more pathways to get in. But there’s no clinical proof of that, and alarm over that theory is causing some patients to stop taking critical blood pressure medication.

    The feedback from cardiology associations seems to be unanimous: There needs to be more research, but patients should not stop taking blood pressure medication. Some studies even show that ACE inhibitors, a type of blood control medicine, is effective in reducing risk of pneumonia in elderly subjects.

  110. @Corvinus

    “Do some i-Steve NOTICING.”

    I did, I have, and you HAVE NOT read the point IN CONTEXT.

    “by choosing not to use the Defense Production Act to enable production of medical supplies”

    My point was big larger picture and not confined to any particular administration. The POINT was that the US’s medical supplies (e.g. key ingredients in pharmaceuticals that are necessary to sustain life, and pharmaceuticals themselves, also facemasks, which can play a very relevant role in containing the spread of COVID-19) should NOT have been outsourced decades ago to China, of all places.

    Why aren’t these industries still thriving in the US? Why aren’t these products, relevant to containing the spread of COVID-19, currently being mass produced here in the US? What has brought us to the dire predicament that we must look to China and other nations to assist us in obtaining facemasks, and perhaps life saving pharmaceuticals?

    AGAIN. That was my main point. WHY is the US in this current predicament?

    • Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard
  111. @Corvinus

    “And what is the factor why they have inadequate protection? That is the larger, and more important, question.”

    And THAT was the main question of my point that you chose to ignore. Commentators such as Patrick Buchanan have constantly and consistently been on this issue since the early ’90s. Outsourcing will be the death nell of US industry/manufacturing base. This is larger than any petty, partisan politics. This in no small way, hinges on national security as well as the economic health of a nation.

  112. Corvinus says:
    @JohnnyWalker123

    From your source…

    In a blunt opinion piece published by Religion News Service on Sunday, longtime English Professor Marybeth Davis Baggett called on Liberty’s board of trustees to overrule Falwell’s decision to keep campus open.

    “Many students, faculty, and staff have health conditions that would make COVID-19 difficult to fight,” Baggett wrote. “And of course, Liberty is not a bubble where the virus would be contained. Instead, its population comes into regular contact with those in the Lynchburg community, putting their health and lives at risk as well.”

    In an interview with The News & Advance, Baggett said she has refused to return to campus during the course of the pandemic.

    “Lives are at stake,” Baggett, who plans to join the Houston Baptist University faculty this fall after 17 years at Liberty, said. “I think this decision is a recipe for disaster and I have been trying to push that as much as I have been able to internally.”

  113. Anon 2 says:
    @Anon

    Re: Sweden hasn’t fought a war since 1630

    A mere 10-second look at Sweden’s history in Wikipedia will demonstrate
    how far this is from the truth.

    After its conversion to Lutheranism in the 16th century Sweden, full of
    fundamentalist frenzy, started throwing its weight around in the Baltic
    Basin for about 200 years, invading mostly the Slavic countries.
    By far the most ruthless and lethal was the invasion of Poland (or more
    generally the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) during 1655-60. The
    invasion, usually known as the (Swedish) Deluge, killed about one-third
    the population of Poland, i.e., it was a greater disaster for Poland than
    World War 2. Because by 1650 almost all of the Ashkenazi Jews had been
    expelled from Western Europe (incl. the German states), and 90% of them
    resided in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, a case could be made
    that the Swedes are some of the biggest killers of the Ashkenazi Jews
    in the history of Europe.

    Swedish invasions largely ended when they were not just defeated but
    humiliated by the Russians in the Battle of Poltava in the 18the century.

    By the way, the Swedes spent World War 2 largely having fun, and getting
    obscenely rich on lucrative war contracts with Nazi Germany.

    • Replies: @Anon 2
  114. anon[285] • Disclaimer says:
    @Kaz

    outsourced all of our critical production

    The current story is that 3M had a few medical certified manufacturing facilities and lots of industrial manufacturing. All that was needed was to legalize the purchase by hospitals of industrial masks (OSHA certified no less). It is plastered over MSM.

  115. Anonymous[198] • Disclaimer says:
    @OscarWildeLoveChild

    Could tuberculosis be one answer? Now it’s mostly third world disease, but it killed lots of people in Europe and US not many generations ago, especially those with poor nutrition living in filthy conditions. Those who lived on to have offspring presumably were genetically more resistant on average and this could apply to corona virus as well. Northern Italy has been rich on a global scale for centuries, perhaps it’s their downfall?

  116. @Corvinus

    You’re only saying that because he’s Christian, Muslims kill all the time, in the name of Islam, and millions of Muslims pray to Allah to heal their sick children, because they believe in the power of prayer to ward of sickness. You just hate Christians. But then, you must hate Muslims too. Does your employer know what you think of Muslims who pray to Allah for healing? Who do you work for, and why won’t you post an open letter to them, with your full name, addressing your concern that 100s of millions of Christians and Muslims pray to ward off sickness. Link it here. Stop being so apathetic.

    When are you going to get off your keyboard and take action against these Christians and Muslims who pray for healing, to ward of sickness, or to even find a spouse, or a good parking space?

    Why does Corvinus waste time on the internet when he can be out saving lives? Did you write the Commonwealth of Kentucky to register your complaints about Rand Paul? If not, why not? If so, post your letter.

    All talk…no action.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    , @Corvinus
  117. @Corvinus

    This goes beyond any partisan blame game. A relevant question is: How can the US bring the outsourced industries back, and with bipartisan support? As neither side of the political aisle cares enough to take action in this direction, there is enough blame on both sides to go around.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @Corvinus
  118. @Anon

    And Boston doesn’t have near the total death numbers as Bergamo.

  119. @anon

    Right, because we know that Iranians don’t ski in any massive number, especially when compared to US and Europeans.

  120. @Neoconned

    Another ethnik cope.

    Immigrant females in Sweden are more likely to be with Swedish men than with Swedish women are to be with immigrant males.

    https://www.thelocal.se/20150402/single-immigrants-less-likely-to-settle-with-swedes

    Only three out of ten immigrant women and nearly two out of ten immigrant men were in relationships with Swedes after five years.

    The immigrant males are considered unattractive by Swedish females.

  121. @unit472

    How does a virus “survive”?

  122. @Reg Cæsar

    Not sure that it’s worth taking Corvinus’ utterances seriously. He’s a Tiny Duck troll, likely from a foreign country. For example, while everyone here makes spelling mistakes due to too-fast typing and not looking at speed check, Corvinus misuses the verb ‘insure’, using that verb when he should have used the verb ‘ensure’. Spellcheck would not correct such misuse, since Corvinus spelled the verb insure correctly. This is enoughto expose him as a foreign fifth columnist. The rest of his diatribe is more TDS blather. The only way through the Scylla and Charybdis of ‘ 6 weeks of strict quarantine ‘ vs. ‘back to work in 3 weeks’ is for the vulnerable to self isolate for 3 or so months, while everyone else goes about their business, gets infected, shrugs it off, and society as a whole gets herd immunity, and or, anti-viral drugs become widely available. That way deaths remain well below the 30 to 40,000 flu deaths that we get every year, and the economy, which China and the Dems so badly want to tank, recovers. If Corvybaby were not a troll, he would also be agitating for the Govt. to proscribe (let’s see if Corvy’s Chinese spell checker knows the difference) foods, drinks, and behaviors which lead to the heart disease which kills about 500,000 Americans every year. Hmm, otoh, maybe that’s where he will go next, the libtard fascists love nothing more than having naked power over the rest of us, but he will be careful not to demand it until after Biden wins, since it’s a fair bet that non-urban Dem voters have the same soon-to-be proscribed habits as the rest of the electorate. God help us all if Corvy’s ilk win this election with a tanked economy. Venezuela here we come.

  123. CCZ says:
    @JRB

    “The results: In the most recent analysis, which used data compiled by Johns Hopkins University, two MIT post-docs in the civil engineering and cognitive science departments found that the maximum number of coronavirus transmissions has occurred in regions that had temperatures between 3 and 13 °C during the outbreak. In contrast, countries with mean temperatures above 18 °C have seen fewer than 5% of total cases. This pattern also shows up within the US, where southern states like Texas, Florida, and Arizona have seen a slower growth rate than northern states like Washington, New York, and Colorado. California, which spans north and south, has a growth rate that falls in between.”

    “Other evidence: Two other preprint papers have drawn similar conclusions. The first, posted on Monday by two researchers from Spain and Finland, found that 95% of positive cases globally have thus far occurred at temperatures between -2 and 10 °C, which closely tracks with the MIT results, and in dry conditions. The second, posted earlier this month by a team led by researchers from Beihang University in China, also looked specifically at transmission rates across Chinese cities. It found that in the early days of the outbreak, before any government interventions, hot and humid cities saw a slower rate of spread than cold and dry ones.”

    https://www.technologyreview.com/s/615381/coronavirus-spread-could-slow-with-warmer-weather/

  124. @Menschmaschine

    Here in Los Angeles I’ve been thinking the same thing: when this crisis is over, we shouldn’t return to requiring people to commute to their office who can realistically work from home.

    Move the majority of the white-collar workforce to a schedule that entails at least three days working from home each week.

    Government could take the lead, and not only by having most of its white-collar employees work from home. For purposes of state income tax: for jobs that are reasonably amenable to at-home performance, allow employers to fully deduct the cost of employees who work from home, but make some of the cost of in-office (and therefore generally commuting) employees NON-deductible.

    There would be a truly substantial reduction in vehicular air pollution. That would reduce the incidence and severity of respiratory conditions, and the cost of treating them, beyond improving people’s chances of surviving viruses like this one.

    For people still on the road, there would be less traffic congestion and quicker trips. That means less time wanted away from family and LIFE, less stress, lower vehicle maintenance costs, less gas burned and pollution spewed while idling or moving slowly, less wear on the the roads, fewer vehicular fatalities and injuries.

    Expand the bus and train system as well, adding lines, stops, more frequent service, and better security, amenities, and reliable high-speed WiFi on board. Fund this with an increase in tax on employers who require people to work in the office who could realistically work from home, and an increase in the gas tax — NOT general taxes on people who are not needlessly causing or exacerbating traffic congestion and pollution.

    There need not be an overall decrease in profit and employment at restaurants, coffee shops, and bars. The patronage of those establishments would merely shift somewhat from the current office locations to the places where the employees live.

    This is something we should do permanently, not just for the duration of this crisis. And not just in Los Angeles.

  125. @OscarWildeLoveChild

    I’d guess you’re right that he wouldn’t say the same about dangerously irrational Muslims, and he should.

    But his point seemed valid this time: if people urging prayer to the exclusion of modern medical care, then they ARE being irresponsible and doing evil. They ARE leading people to shirk their fundamental (and sacred) duty to protect the lives of their children through all moral means available. Those means certainly include medical technology and expertise (all of which was developed with the minds that God gave us, anyway).

  126. 22pp22 says:
    @Anonymous

    Italy doesn’t feel dysfunctional. Awesome food, great roads, great trains, a very high life expectancy (until now). To the casual observer, the US is a great deal more dysfunctional. My last trip to LA was revolting. Beggars everywhere, a few very rich people served by a semi-literate serf-caste with whom they can often not even communicate.

  127. @Neoconned

    Something to think about, but I expect that few people over the age of seventy, certainly seventy-five, are still covered by sizable life insurance policies. The premiums are simply FAR too high for most people by then.

  128. 22pp22 says:

    We have just had our first case in my small town in rural NZ. Two weeks ago, we were Wuflu-free. Thanks Jacinda. It’ll be just like the Christchurch massacre, Jacinda will get to wear her chador and put on her best concerned face. $56 million of the the economic package is reserved for Maori. Racist or what?

    Maori communities up north are putting up roadblocks. I wonder what would happen if we tried that.

    Same shit, different shovel.

  129. @guest007

    In Louisiana, the cases are heavily concentrated in New Orleans and in Jefferson Parish, which is more or less a suburb of NOLA. Presumably, Mardi Gras bring large numbers of people from everywhere gathering in giant crowds had a lot to do with the outbreak.

  130. Anon 2 says:
    @Anon 2

    Re: Swedish invasion of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth
    during 1655-60

    Historians estimate that about one-third of the population
    of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth were killed directly
    or indirectly as a result of the invasion. Since the population
    was roughly 12 million, the Swedes are responsible for 4
    million deaths, an unimaginable number in 17th century Europe.
    They also stole much of the cultural heritage of Poland – paintings,
    sculptures, manuscripts (incl. those of Copernicus), artistic
    furniture, etc. All of those items are still in Sweden, and the
    Swedish government refuses to return them. In view of all this,
    Sweden can hardly be considered a civilized country.

  131. @AnotherDad

    Fair enough, but what is the basis for your claim that this is much more lethal than the flu for adults between the ages of 30 and 70?

  132. Corvinus says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    “A relevant question is: How can the US bring the outsourced industries back, and with bipartisan support?”

    I wholeheartedly agree American companies should remain here in the United States.

    But right now the focus is on Trump and his inaction. Remember, it took a Fox News personality to finally convince him that Covid-19 was serious.

    Why is Trump not putting into direct play (he invoked this power already) the Defense Production Act? Why did Trump tell governors to get their own ventilators and other key medical supplies–“we will be backing you, but try getting it yourselves”? Why is White House economic adviser Peter Navarro telling reporters, “We’re getting what we need without putting the heavy hand of government down”? Why has Trump in the past four years NOT made it a centerpiece by spearheading legislation to curtain or ban outsourcing?

    However, do not American companies have the liberty to take their property (e.g. machines, materials, intellectual ideas) and put it where they want? How do you coerce these corporations from not leaving? What incentives are provided? Would it be a form of corporate welfare? What are the constitutional implications in compelling American companies from being able to outsource?

    “As neither side of the political aisle cares enough to take action in this direction…”

    No, they care enough to take action, it’s just that they want a preferred action. For example, should we give the Treasury Department the sole discretion to dole out $500 billion to certain companies without oversight or consequence? Is not this course of action a government bailout and/or corporate welfare?

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
  133. Corvinus says:
    @OscarWildeLoveChild

    “You’re only saying that because he’s Christian…”

    No, I am saying it because Falwell is endangering lives.

    “Muslims kill all the time, in the name of Islam…”

    You mean those Muslims or Christians, or Jews, who perverse their faith will kill in the name of their faith.

    “You just hate Christians. But then, you must hate Muslims too.”

    You are being illogical here.

  134. @guest007

    The fact that such a pandemic can have salutary effects on the economics of a social-welfare state of limited means is not lost on that country’s leadership.

    You open a tin of Surströmming, but chase it with a healthy dose of Akvavit.

    • Replies: @guest007
  135. @Corvinus

    “However, do not American companies have the liberty to take their property (e.g. machines, materials, intellectual ideas) and put it where they want?”

    Duh.

    “How do you coerce these corporations from not leaving?”

    Tariffs. This used to be done up until the 1960’s or so. Restore the tariffs and make them extremely high enough that the incentive for businesses is to stay in the US.

    “What incentives are provided?”

    Tax breaks for companies that agree to remain in the US. For so many years, until they are sufficiently able to function in the US at a reasonable profit.

    “Would it be a form of corporate welfare?”

    Obviously, but those are the tradeoffs. The larger picture is to keep these industries in the US over the long term.

    “What are the constitutional implications in compelling American companies from being able to outsource?”

    For well over a century and a half, depending upon when to officially date it, the US has effectively compelled industries to remain inside the US. Beginning with Congressman Henry Clay’s “The American System”, through Abraham Lincoln, McKinley, and other presidents all the way down to JFK, for the most part, US industries were persuaded to remain in the US and were threatened with heavy tariffs if they left. One could say that the modern era of outsourcing didn’t begin in full earnest until the 1960’s, or even the ’80’s/’90’s, but that’s a lesson for another time. Point being, there was a mechanism in place to persuade companies from leaving, so theoretically it could be done again. As to constitutional implications, there wasn’t a major squawk during the nineteenth/most of twentieth century in the courts from businesses so desiring to leave the US. The negative publicity of being seen as wanting to not remain in the US and actually fighting in the courts to leave the country would be sufficient enough to squash that idea. That would be too public, actually publicly fighting to leave the nation in which the business started. They’d try to do it indirectly, but not through the courts per se.

    And of course, the courts would side with the government on the issue of tax policy. There’s no precedent of a corporation successfully suing the government that it should be exempt from paying any and all taxes (whether in the form of corporate or as a tariff). Taxes are how the government is funded, including the courts (as they too are part of the government). Tariffs can always be framed as being a part of national security. What’s good for the health and defense of a nation is good for the country as a whole type of thing.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  136. @Lagertha

    So, the media is to blame. They’ve scared the daylights (literally) out of people.

    I’m in the NYC metro and the media hysteria is unbelievable.

    I also believe that Cuomo’s attempts to audition for the presidency with his Trump-like daily press conferences are unhelpful.

  137. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Why aren’t these industries still thriving in the US? Why aren’t these products, relevant to containing the spread of COVID-19, currently being mass produced here in the US?

    The people that outsourced those industries to China would tell you that the profit margin for making those products in the US is unacceptably low.

    In the US, Mammon is the only God that matters.

  138. res says:
    @Lagertha

    OT: I found it hilarious that rich New Yorkers escaped to their vacation homes in the Hamptons, and Jersey Shore….and the locals absolutely hate them – these jerks went to the beach and parks in droves; and bought out all toilet paper and hoarded food. Wyoming & Montana, kicked out all non-state residents, closed all resorts, and, if you have a home there, no one is providing you with any services door-to-door in the canyons. First victim was a driver for some asshole NYC family – all affected in MT & WY are recovering.

    Interesting. Good food for thought for anyone planning to bug out if the SHTF.

    Do you have a link discussing those actions by Montana and Wyoming? I did not see anything in the “Here’s how the coronavirus has progressed in Montana and Wyoming” series at the Billings Gazette site.

    • Replies: @Lagertha
  139. guest007 says:
    @The Alarmist

    If you look at the data for the epi-curve in Sweden it looks like every other country or worse.

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
  140. Corvinus says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Well, if you agree that American companies can go where they want, then that is their choice. Why should we interfere with their decision? Is that course of action to prevent them from leaving against their liberty?

    Tariffs work to a point. Import duties fall on the American importers of foreign goods, who often pass those cost increases onto American consumers. And if tariffs are raised here in the States, then other nations retaliate, which puts American companies at a disadvantage when they try to sell their goods overseas.

    “Tax breaks for companies that agree to remain in the US. For so many years, until they are sufficiently able to function in the US at a reasonable profit.”

    So long as those tax breaks have iron clad stipulations by which every single dollar goes into the business by way of hiring workers or creating new products and NOT lining the pockets of shareholders and CEO’s. Moreover, what is a “reasonable profit”? Who makes that determination?
    What does “sufficiently able to function” even mean? More importantly, should regulations be reduced (e.g. environmental, employee) as further incentives for companies to remain in the States? What are the financial and ethical implications involved?

    “Would it be a form of corporate welfare?”

    Here are arguments against it.

    https://prospect.org/economy/corporate-welfare-hurts

    “For well over a century and a half, depending upon when to officially date it, the US has effectively compelled industries to remain inside the US.”

    Because those companies were just getting off the ground. But with our services based global economy, such measures are antiquated.

    “One could say that the modern era of outsourcing didn’t begin in full earnest until the 1960’s, or even the ’80’s/’90’s, but that’s a lesson for another time.”

    I concur. But companies left the States because they can pay workers cheap and do not have to be subject to certain laws. Why would those corporations want to come back when they enjoy high profits without concerning themselves to worker benefits and safety standards?

    “Point being, there was a mechanism in place to persuade companies from leaving, so theoretically it could be done again.”

    In theory, indeed.

    “As to constitutional implications, there wasn’t a major squawk during the nineteenth/most of twentieth century in the courts from businesses so desiring to leave the US.”

    No, but they did squawk about the imposition of federal and state laws that protected workers. And do you think today that corporations would not go to court seeking redress of grievances if the government compels them to remain here in the States?

    “The negative publicity of being seen as wanting to not remain in the US and actually fighting in the courts to leave the country would be sufficient enough to squash that idea. That would be too public…”

    LOL, are you naive? American CEO’s generally do not care about the public fallout. If their property is being unduly subjected, they have a duty to their shareholders to fight in the court system.

    “And of course, the courts would side with the government on the issue of tax policy.”

    How are you so certain?

    “There’s no precedent of a corporation successfully suing the government that it should be exempt from paying any and all taxes.”

    There is no need to sue given the tax loopholes that corporations take advantage of, which is part of the incentives for staying in-house. Should not efforts be made so companies pay their fair share?

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
  141. @guest007

    So what’s your point? The Swedes have chosen for the most part to live and let some die. But I bet it won’t be long before their womenly instincts get the better of them and they follow the redt of the West into the economic abyss.

  142. @Corvinus

    “Why would those corporations want to come back when they enjoy high profits without concerning themselves to worker benefits and safety standards?”

    Which is where tariffs come into play. Make the rates high enough so that the advantages they enjoy producing goods in another nation are offset and close to nil.

    “And if tariffs are raised here in the States, then other nations retaliate, which puts American companies at a disadvantage when they try to sell their goods overseas.”

    For starters, the US could follow the Asian model. China and Japan have tariffs, they also practice a form of protectionism (as the US used to as well) for their native workers. The US is a large global market, we can protect it from outside competitors at the expense of native workers. It’s not a right for other nations to drop their goods into the US, thus putting US workers at a competitive disadvantage having to compete vs lower wage nations workers’ production. America First, not the world is our market, with no costs of doing business here.

    “How are you so certain?”

    The government wants to get paid (e.g. tax revenue). Of course you may be referring to public officials that are “persuaded” to side with corporate 1% as opposed to the interests of US workers and working class USers.

    It used to be the “turf” of a major political party to safeguard the interests of working class Americans. This party no longer cares to do so as they are bought and sold by the same faction that persuades the other major party.

    “Should not efforts be made so companies pay their fair share?”

    And what, pray tell, is a company’s fair share to pay? To ask the corporation they would say that their share should be “less”. To ask the government, depending on which public official that is asked, the answer would be “more”. Therefore, have the outsourced nations pay their fair share via a high tariff. Again that would be a start. Even though it may be a technicality, these global nations, many of them, are or were US based at their origins. And many claim (when its convenient) that they are a US company. They still make their goods largely for the US market. Therefore, paying their fair share would be thru the tariff. It’s the price of admission to one of the largest first world markets. These ideas have been discussed for decades. Remedies have also been written. Admittedly what is lacking is enough public officials willing to enact these policies.

  143. Lagertha says:
    @res

    all my info was town gossip in Gallatin County (bars, restaurants, shops, small businesses, etc.). A friend lives in Big Sky and said that all non-Montanans there, can “shelter in place,” but no one is going to service them (buy groceries; babysit; cook & clean) if they chose to stay. Needless to say, some left in their private jets – Brady has a house there. It was a cold and snowy March, so not so spring skiing-excellent and all – absolutely great for X country.

    I am a chatty person (duh) so, many people just told me stuff that was not printed in the county/town paper. Printed: first case was: elderly snow bird sick in Maryland; but, because she is a Montanan, she was counted as 1st case! The second was also ill, out-of-state….wanna say, “snowbird.” The 3rd and 4th were drivers – those two freaked out everyone in the county, so once MT & WY heard about the sickness in Aspen, Vail, Tahoe, Sun Valley, Whistler, they knew they needed to “get tourists/Big Sky rich, out.”

    And, because Yellowstone does not open until mid to late May (as you know), this is a “hump” period when most out-of-staters/visitors don’t come to the Northcountry. The snow was pretty epic this season. Locals, and students, are just hiking up Bridger and taking a sublime one run! late March and April are very boring in Montana & Wyoming because avalanche threat keep people away from the canyons. People usually hunker down and watch netflix.

    • Thanks: res
  144. anon[677] • Disclaimer says:

    That’s interesting and unexpected re Sweden. Also my preferred approach — let individuals and organizations make their own decisions as far as precautions, ideally with some guidance from the authorities, and otherwise proceed as normal with the working-age population. Of course, results will vary. You take your chances in life. Here in the DC area, we went from almost no precautions whatsoever to lines at the grocery stores due to enforced social distancing — but still very few masks! All the delivery services are jammed up for the foreseeable future, so I’ve been going to the little Asian market, where they don’t seem to give a fˆ¢k. And it’s all good — there’s no one there. Meanwhile, some of my libertarian friends are screaming for a lockdown of NY! I’m hoping to vacation there in a few weeks…

  145. Anonymous[386] • Disclaimer says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Another question that should be (but won’t) asked, exactly what are half a million Chinese doing living in Northern Italy?

    A handbag ‘Made in Italy’ is worth $1000. The same handbag ‘Made in China’ is worth $50.

    The people who brought these workers to Italy must have thought they were being very clever.

  146. @unit472

    Notably, the fake news media have made corrections. They now state that the virus did not “survive”.

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