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Israeli High Court Allows DNA Testing to Prove Judaism
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From Haaretz:

Israeli High Court Allows DNA Testing to Prove Judaism

Petition filed by Avigdor Lieberman, Yisrael Beitenu and several individuals asking for the DNA testing to prove Judaism to be disallowed is struck down

The Soviet-born Lieberman founded the rightwing secular nationalist Yisrael Beitenu party, largely populated by immigrants from the Soviet Union, which opposes Palestinians and ultra-Orthodox Jews.

Lots of ex-Soviet Israelis aren’t 100% Jewish by ancestry, so they tend to get a hard time from the rabbis, who have certain powers, such as approving marriages within Israel.

Aaron Rabinowitz
Jan 24, 2020 3:15 AM

A panel of High Court justices rejected the petition filed by Avigdor Lieberman, Yisrael Beitenu and several private petitioners against the Chief Rabbinate and the rabbinical courts, ruling that DNA testing to prove one’s Judaism should be allowed.

The High Court of Justice also ruled that the petitioners did not prove that the rabbinate acted in a discriminatory manner in this matter. At the same time, the majority decision said the rabbinate must formulate written rules on the issue within a year.

The majority decision was written by Justice Neal Hendel, who noted that two important issues were raised in the petition: reexamination by the rabbinical court of the Judaism of someone who was already recognized and registered as a Jew, and conducting genetic tests to prove one’s Judaism.

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  1. This was already in practice because of people — mainly Russian, not African — saying they were Jewish to get welfare.
    —–
    >Hong Kong’s corona virus quarantine building firebombed!
    Oh no!
    >by pro-democracy protesters!
    What?
    >say the PRC police
    Okayyyyy …

    • Replies: @Anon
    @J.Ross

    Not sure why you brought Hong Kong into the discussion. Reuters and Independent aren’t really the PRC’s mouthpiece.






    Hong Kong protesters torch planned virus quarantine building - Reuters
    12 hours ago · A group of protesters set alight the lobby of a newly built residential building in Hong Kong on Sunday that ... Black smoke could be seen pouring out of the building to the sound of fire alarms .


    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/coronavirus-hong-kong-protests-quarantine-building-china-latest-a9302531.htm


    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-health-hongkong/hong-kong-protesters-torch-planned-virus-quarantine-building-idUSKBN1ZP0H1?il=0

    Replies: @J.Ross

  2. DNA testing to prove one’s Judaism should be allowed.

    conducting genetic tests to prove one’s Judaism.

    What is the threshold 23andMe(-like test) score to qualify? 90%? 75%? 51%?

    And at least on 23andMe, they only test Ashkenazi Jewish. They don’t test for other sorts of Jews.

    Of interest: At the anthropology-and-genetics forum Anthrogenica, someone identifying as a Sephardic Jew posted her 23andMe results (2016 edition), as follows:

    Paper-genealogy:

    two of my grandparents are from north Africa and two other are from Uzbekistan (all sides are Jewish)

    23andMe region-ancestry guesses:

    85% Middle eastern and North African:
    – 70% Middle eastern
    – 13% North African
    – 1.5% broadly middle eastern and north African

    14.0% European
    – 6.2% Italian
    – 3.3% Broadly southern European
    – 1.2% Ashkenazi
    – 3.2% Broadly European

    0.3% East Asian and Native American

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    @Hail

    AFAIK, they look at one's mitochrondrial DNA since that is the DNA that was inherited from one's mother.

    Replies: @Hail

  3. Orthodox Brooklyn Synagogue to Host “Antifa” Rock Concert and Fundraiser

    https://www.unz.com/estriker/brooklyn-synagogue-to-host-antifa-rock-concert-and-fundraiser/

    Congregation Beth Jacob Ohev Shalom in Williamsburg, Brooklyn will be hosting one of the largest gatherings of “antifa” in New York City in recent memory this Saturday.

    The event is being headlined by “antifa” punk band (A) Truth, whose lead singer and drummer Christian Erazo also runs its sponsors “EastRev” (an anarchist punk record label) and “Brigada 71,” a soccer hooligan gang affiliated with the New York Cosmos.

    Organizations set to make official appearances include Marisa Holmes’ Metropolitan Anarchist Coordinating Council (MACC) and “antifa” prisoner support group NY Anarchist Black Cross (NYABC), whose members are based out of Bushwick and Brighton Beach.

    I thought that Orthodox Jews were culturally conservative.

    Why would they host a fundraiser for “Anti-Fa”?

    Very strange.

    Hmmm……

    Perhaps “Anti-Fa” is a Jewish-financed private militia that attacks the enemies of the Jews, in an attempt to shut them up. Since Jewish elites control the levers of power (media, politics, courts, etc), they can create a space for “Anti-Fa” to operate.

    Similar to how Jeffrey Epstein (remember him?) had space to operate because the prosecutors wouldn’t prosecute him, the media killed news stories on him, Leslie Wexner gave him a billion dollars, and LOTS of powerful people (both Jewish and Gentile) befriended him.

    • Replies: @Lot
    @JohnnyWalker123

    “Anti-Fa” is a Jewish-financed private militia that attacks the enemies of the Jews,”

    The financing isn’t a big deal, brass knuckles and black bandannas are cheap. Getting them to sit still and submit to the initial ZioJew hypnosis is the hard part.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Pericles

    , @kaganovitch
    @JohnnyWalker123

    I thought that Orthodox Jews were culturally conservative.
    Why would they host a fundraiser for “Anti-Fa”?
    Very strange.


    Beth Jacob Ohev Sholom is a zombie synagogue that no longer has a minyan (quorum). They no longer even have a Rabbi. As such, it became fair game for "progressive" nominally Orthodox hipsters who have settled in Williamsburg in large numbers. All it takes is to get one semi-befuddled ninety year old man who is the the president or the treasurer to permit your "Jewish" organization to use the social hall or the sanctuary and you're in business. The idea that this demonstrates Orthodox sympathy for Antifa is absurd.

    Replies: @Clyde, @Alden

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @JohnnyWalker123



    ...a soccer hooligan gang affiliated with the New York Cosmos
     
    I thought that Orthodox Jews were culturally conservative.
     
    Considering that the Cosmos went out of business in 1985, that's pretty conservative. Even reactionary.

    Like being a Brooklyn Dodgers fan in 1993.

    The Cosmos themselves quite conservatively fired goalie Shep Messing for posing nude in Viva. (Jim Bouton put him up to it.)

  4. Anon[544] • Disclaimer says:
    @J.Ross
    This was already in practice because of people -- mainly Russian, not African -- saying they were Jewish to get welfare.
    -----
    >Hong Kong's corona virus quarantine building firebombed!
    Oh no!
    >by pro-democracy protesters!
    What?
    >say the PRC police
    Okayyyyy ...

    Replies: @Anon

    Not sure why you brought Hong Kong into the discussion. Reuters and Independent aren’t really the PRC’s mouthpiece.

    Hong Kong protesters torch planned virus quarantine building – Reuters
    12 hours ago · A group of protesters set alight the lobby of a newly built residential building in Hong Kong on Sunday that … Black smoke could be seen pouring out of the building to the sound of fire alarms .

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/coronavirus-hong-kong-protests-quarantine-building-china-latest-a9302531.htm

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-health-hongkong/hong-kong-protesters-torch-planned-virus-quarantine-building-idUSKBN1ZP0H1?il=0

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @Anon

    Police in black protester costumes setting fires is a pretty standard thing in HK (but maybe these were protesters). Steve doesn't have a Wuhan Flu thread so you see bloodlung stories through all the others.

  5. @JohnnyWalker123
    Orthodox Brooklyn Synagogue to Host "Antifa" Rock Concert and Fundraiser


    https://www.unz.com/estriker/brooklyn-synagogue-to-host-antifa-rock-concert-and-fundraiser/

    Congregation Beth Jacob Ohev Shalom in Williamsburg, Brooklyn will be hosting one of the largest gatherings of “antifa” in New York City in recent memory this Saturday.

    The event is being headlined by “antifa” punk band (A) Truth, whose lead singer and drummer Christian Erazo also runs its sponsors “EastRev” (an anarchist punk record label) and “Brigada 71,” a soccer hooligan gang affiliated with the New York Cosmos.

    Organizations set to make official appearances include Marisa Holmes’ Metropolitan Anarchist Coordinating Council (MACC) and “antifa” prisoner support group NY Anarchist Black Cross (NYABC), whose members are based out of Bushwick and Brighton Beach.

     

    I thought that Orthodox Jews were culturally conservative.

    Why would they host a fundraiser for "Anti-Fa"?

    Very strange.

    Hmmm......

    Perhaps "Anti-Fa" is a Jewish-financed private militia that attacks the enemies of the Jews, in an attempt to shut them up. Since Jewish elites control the levers of power (media, politics, courts, etc), they can create a space for "Anti-Fa" to operate.

    Similar to how Jeffrey Epstein (remember him?) had space to operate because the prosecutors wouldn't prosecute him, the media killed news stories on him, Leslie Wexner gave him a billion dollars, and LOTS of powerful people (both Jewish and Gentile) befriended him.

    Replies: @Lot, @kaganovitch, @Reg Cæsar

    “Anti-Fa” is a Jewish-financed private militia that attacks the enemies of the Jews,”

    The financing isn’t a big deal, brass knuckles and black bandannas are cheap. Getting them to sit still and submit to the initial ZioJew hypnosis is the hard part.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @Lot

    What about the part where they're in a nominally conservative synagogue?

    Replies: @kaganovitch

    , @Pericles
    @Lot



    Getting them to sit still and submit to the initial ZioJew hypnosis is the hard part.

     

    Really? I've heard the subjects pay dearly for the privilege (by taking on debt, of course).
  6. @Anon
    @J.Ross

    Not sure why you brought Hong Kong into the discussion. Reuters and Independent aren’t really the PRC’s mouthpiece.






    Hong Kong protesters torch planned virus quarantine building - Reuters
    12 hours ago · A group of protesters set alight the lobby of a newly built residential building in Hong Kong on Sunday that ... Black smoke could be seen pouring out of the building to the sound of fire alarms .


    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/coronavirus-hong-kong-protests-quarantine-building-china-latest-a9302531.htm


    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-health-hongkong/hong-kong-protesters-torch-planned-virus-quarantine-building-idUSKBN1ZP0H1?il=0

    Replies: @J.Ross

    Police in black protester costumes setting fires is a pretty standard thing in HK (but maybe these were protesters). Steve doesn’t have a Wuhan Flu thread so you see bloodlung stories through all the others.

    • Troll: Blinky Bill
  7. @Lot
    @JohnnyWalker123

    “Anti-Fa” is a Jewish-financed private militia that attacks the enemies of the Jews,”

    The financing isn’t a big deal, brass knuckles and black bandannas are cheap. Getting them to sit still and submit to the initial ZioJew hypnosis is the hard part.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Pericles

    What about the part where they’re in a nominally conservative synagogue?

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    @J.Ross

    What about the part where they’re in a nominally conservative synagogue?


    As I wrote earlier,I'm familiar with the synagogue. It is a "zombie" synagogue, not a functioning synagogue.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @J.Ross

  8. Diversity for the, purity for me.
    # mass immigration

  9. Israel’s a weird place. Normally you have a nation because you are and have a nation.

    Obviously the first oddity is that Israel is a re-creation–with a bunch of the previous occupants still there. (Creating endless tedious drama.)

    But the other deal, is that to reject integration–particularly in Europe, where Christianity integrated and de-tribalized essentially all other tribes–the Jews really wrapped up their tribalism in religion, with both a strong anti-integration ideology and all sorts of arcane religious practice, blocking assimilation.

    So while in a normal nation, national identity is fairly clear–you live there, as did your ancestors, and simply have the language, religion, norms, culture of the nation–in Israel, you have to figure this out. And you’ve empowered the religious bureaucracy to meddle in the “who is a Jew” question.

    I’d say “trainwreck”. Except, to be fair on the fertility front, Israel–the one at least quasi-white nation not subject to Jewish minoritarianism–is beating the pants off the rest of the West. So clearly, overall it’s working.

    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    @AnotherDad

    Israel is subject Jewish majoritarianism.

    Israel also receives huge amounts of money from the U.S.

    According to one estimate, Israel received $1.6 trillion in financial assistance between 1973 and 2003.

    https://ifamericansknew.org/stat/cost.html

    Since then, there obviously has been further aid. Not to mention these various foreign wars (Syria, Libya, Iraq, etc), that have been executed to benefit Israeli security interests.

    If I gave you $1.6 trillion, you might consider having a few more children too.

    Replies: @Clyde

    , @Shmendrix
    @AnotherDad

    "the language, religion, norms, culture of the nation" -
    Yes, we had all those, remarkably similar from place to place, all throughout the diaspora. As we do now.

    , @Erik L
    @AnotherDad

    "So while in a normal nation, national identity is fairly clear–you live there, as did your ancestors,..." I'm not sure this is true. Are there not several nations in Europe that are spread out historically over what are currently different countries? I have a sense from history class that many groups which consider themselves nations are spread and mixed with other populations within the same geographic regions.

    Happy to be corrected, though

  10. @AnotherDad
    Israel's a weird place. Normally you have a nation because you are and have a nation.

    Obviously the first oddity is that Israel is a re-creation--with a bunch of the previous occupants still there. (Creating endless tedious drama.)

    But the other deal, is that to reject integration--particularly in Europe, where Christianity integrated and de-tribalized essentially all other tribes--the Jews really wrapped up their tribalism in religion, with both a strong anti-integration ideology and all sorts of arcane religious practice, blocking assimilation.

    So while in a normal nation, national identity is fairly clear--you live there, as did your ancestors, and simply have the language, religion, norms, culture of the nation--in Israel, you have to figure this out. And you've empowered the religious bureaucracy to meddle in the "who is a Jew" question.

    I'd say "trainwreck". Except, to be fair on the fertility front, Israel--the one at least quasi-white nation not subject to Jewish minoritarianism--is beating the pants off the rest of the West. So clearly, overall it's working.

    Replies: @JohnnyWalker123, @Shmendrix, @Erik L

    Israel is subject Jewish majoritarianism.

    Israel also receives huge amounts of money from the U.S.

    According to one estimate, Israel received $1.6 trillion in financial assistance between 1973 and 2003.

    https://ifamericansknew.org/stat/cost.html

    Since then, there obviously has been further aid. Not to mention these various foreign wars (Syria, Libya, Iraq, etc), that have been executed to benefit Israeli security interests.

    If I gave you $1.6 trillion, you might consider having a few more children too.

    • Replies: @Clyde
    @JohnnyWalker123


    Israel also receives huge amounts of money from the U.S.
    According to one estimate, Israel received $1.6 trillion in financial assistance between 1973 and 2003.
     
    This is a bullshit estimate since aid has been about 3 billion per year. In this same time frame how much have we spent on tribalist/ Islamic supremacist nations in the Middle East? Primarily via our military and Navy to keep the sea lanes open for free flow of Muslim oil at nice market prices?
    Got any estimates for this one?
    Didn't think so.

    Replies: @Adam Smith

  11. @JohnnyWalker123
    Orthodox Brooklyn Synagogue to Host "Antifa" Rock Concert and Fundraiser


    https://www.unz.com/estriker/brooklyn-synagogue-to-host-antifa-rock-concert-and-fundraiser/

    Congregation Beth Jacob Ohev Shalom in Williamsburg, Brooklyn will be hosting one of the largest gatherings of “antifa” in New York City in recent memory this Saturday.

    The event is being headlined by “antifa” punk band (A) Truth, whose lead singer and drummer Christian Erazo also runs its sponsors “EastRev” (an anarchist punk record label) and “Brigada 71,” a soccer hooligan gang affiliated with the New York Cosmos.

    Organizations set to make official appearances include Marisa Holmes’ Metropolitan Anarchist Coordinating Council (MACC) and “antifa” prisoner support group NY Anarchist Black Cross (NYABC), whose members are based out of Bushwick and Brighton Beach.

     

    I thought that Orthodox Jews were culturally conservative.

    Why would they host a fundraiser for "Anti-Fa"?

    Very strange.

    Hmmm......

    Perhaps "Anti-Fa" is a Jewish-financed private militia that attacks the enemies of the Jews, in an attempt to shut them up. Since Jewish elites control the levers of power (media, politics, courts, etc), they can create a space for "Anti-Fa" to operate.

    Similar to how Jeffrey Epstein (remember him?) had space to operate because the prosecutors wouldn't prosecute him, the media killed news stories on him, Leslie Wexner gave him a billion dollars, and LOTS of powerful people (both Jewish and Gentile) befriended him.

    Replies: @Lot, @kaganovitch, @Reg Cæsar

    I thought that Orthodox Jews were culturally conservative.
    Why would they host a fundraiser for “Anti-Fa”?
    Very strange.

    Beth Jacob Ohev Sholom is a zombie synagogue that no longer has a minyan (quorum). They no longer even have a Rabbi. As such, it became fair game for “progressive” nominally Orthodox hipsters who have settled in Williamsburg in large numbers. All it takes is to get one semi-befuddled ninety year old man who is the the president or the treasurer to permit your “Jewish” organization to use the social hall or the sanctuary and you’re in business. The idea that this demonstrates Orthodox sympathy for Antifa is absurd.

    • Agree: Dissident
    • Thanks: Redneck farmer
    • Replies: @Clyde
    @kaganovitch

    You got their number K. On this Beth Jacob Ohev Sholom, the zombie synagogue. My easy guess that is was once an alive, functioning synagogue, but too many neighboring Orthodox moved away to the suburbs. And religious Jews don't (not allowed) hop in their cars on Saturday to attend, they walk. Though I have seen some riding bicycles.

    Replies: @kaganovitch

    , @Alden
    @kaganovitch

    Sounds reasonable

  12. @J.Ross
    @Lot

    What about the part where they're in a nominally conservative synagogue?

    Replies: @kaganovitch

    What about the part where they’re in a nominally conservative synagogue?

    As I wrote earlier,I’m familiar with the synagogue. It is a “zombie” synagogue, not a functioning synagogue.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    @kaganovitch

    10/10 for damage control. Safe bet that 90% of the goy suckers on here -- though they fancy themselves "noticers" -- will swallow that whole.

    Replies: @Kaganovitch, @Dissident

    , @J.Ross
    @kaganovitch

    Ah, the Jewish equivalent of the Temple of Satan, or, for Christians, Unitarianism and half of Lutheranism. That was a really bizarre point because there's no way the most cynical Haredi would put up with all the in-your-face sexual stuff and obscenity that are indentifying badges for antifa.

    Replies: @kaganovitch

  13. @kaganovitch
    @J.Ross

    What about the part where they’re in a nominally conservative synagogue?


    As I wrote earlier,I'm familiar with the synagogue. It is a "zombie" synagogue, not a functioning synagogue.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @J.Ross

    10/10 for damage control. Safe bet that 90% of the goy suckers on here — though they fancy themselves “noticers” — will swallow that whole.

    • Replies: @Kaganovitch
    @silviosilver

    Do you actually know anything about the matter? Or is " hasbara" your default position, no matter the facts? Surely 'noticing' implies some commitment to empiricism, not your own fever dreams.

    , @Dissident
    @silviosilver


    10/10 for damage control. Safe bet that 90% of the goy suckers on here — though they fancy themselves “noticers” — will swallow that whole.

     

    LOL!

    Readers of this blog who used-to listen to the late "King" of NY talk radio, the legendary Bob Grant, may recognize the name "Eugene from Albany". And recall it as that of one of the more deranged of the many colorful characters whose calls regularly graced Grant's daily broadcast. The offspring of a Black-Jewish union (I cannot recall which parent was which), this individual was an absolutely rabid monomaniac. The subject of his pathological obsession? None other than that, which more than any other, would put him in good company here at UR.

    Of all of this individual's weekly rants* that I had the pleasure of hearing over the years, there was one in which he made a claim that was so utterly, comically, over-the-top incoherent and ridiculous that I have remembered it to this day-- as much as twenty or more years later. Railing, specifically, against the Satmar community that is heavily concentrated in both Williamsburg, Brooklyn as well as upstate in Orange County, Eugene said the following (paraphrasing from memory). ...those Satmar hasidic Jews...they won't serve in the American military but they'll go to Israel and serve in the IDF!.

    (*Grant had, at least during the years that I listened to his show, a strictly enforced Once-A-Week Rule.)

    That gem from the infamous "Eugene from Albany" immediately came to mind when I read your comment. The reason will no doubt be obvious to anyone with even minimal familiarity with both Satmar as well as with the most basic and broad differences between the many subsets, strains and factions within Orthodox Jewry. The communities that have dominated Williamsburg for decades now are firmly at the right-most end of the Orthodox spectrum. These are those that are the most insular, separate and eschewing of secular culture and secular education.

    If there exists any functioning Orthodox Jewish entity that would, in any way, align itself with or even join for any reason the likes of Antifa, such an entity would most certainly be found on the complete opposite end of the spectrum-- the leftmost fringe of (nominal) (Modern-) Orthodoxy. Left-wing Orthodoxy has a strong presence in places such as Manhattan's Upper West and Upper East Side, and Riverdale, NY. (Indeed, two of those locations account, respectively, are where each of the two (nominally) (Modern-) Orthodox rabbis who performed/sanctioned Ivanka Trump's highly dubious conversion* is a prominent figure.)

    (*I was going to use a stronger, less ambiguous term than 'dubious' but decided I would do best to exercise restraint. Suffice it to point-out (a) that in order to be valid, conversion to Judaism must be free of any ulterior motives-- few of which are more obvious than marriage; and (b) Ms. Ivanka's manner of dress alone, which does not meet even the most lenient halakhic standards, raises serious suspicions whether another of the absolutely essential requirements for valid conversion was met: Full acceptance of the yoke of the commandments (ol hamitzvos).

    Replies: @Clyde

  14. I’m glad to see the foolishness and wrongness of the concept exposed by trying to home in on it.
    Maybe it will finally get more people to think about this divisive, invidious meme and to recognize its inherent ambiguity.

  15. @JohnnyWalker123
    @AnotherDad

    Israel is subject Jewish majoritarianism.

    Israel also receives huge amounts of money from the U.S.

    According to one estimate, Israel received $1.6 trillion in financial assistance between 1973 and 2003.

    https://ifamericansknew.org/stat/cost.html

    Since then, there obviously has been further aid. Not to mention these various foreign wars (Syria, Libya, Iraq, etc), that have been executed to benefit Israeli security interests.

    If I gave you $1.6 trillion, you might consider having a few more children too.

    Replies: @Clyde

    Israel also receives huge amounts of money from the U.S.
    According to one estimate, Israel received $1.6 trillion in financial assistance between 1973 and 2003.

    This is a bullshit estimate since aid has been about 3 billion per year. In this same time frame how much have we spent on tribalist/ Islamic supremacist nations in the Middle East? Primarily via our military and Navy to keep the sea lanes open for free flow of Muslim oil at nice market prices?
    Got any estimates for this one?
    Didn’t think so.

    • Replies: @Adam Smith
    @Clyde

    It's a bullshit estimate to say that Israel has only cost the U.S. taxpayer 3 billion each year.

    What do you think all that protection for Israel cost the U.S. taxpayer?

    What do you think the glorious wars for Greater Israel have cost the U.S. taxcattle?

    It's not that Israel received $1.6 trillion in cash from the U.S. taxpayer between 1973 and 2003...

    It's that Israel has cost the U.S. taxpayer $1.6 trillion between 1973 and 2003.

    https://ifamericansknew.org/stat/cost.html

    There are many more potential categories of costs that are even more difficult to quantify. All in all, Stauffer estimates that Israel cost the US about $1.6 trillion between 1973 and 2003 alone—more than twice the cost of the Vietnam war.

    Looks like you didn't read the link Johnny posted.

    There will be no peace in Mesopotamia while Israel is allowed to exist in Palestine.

    Replies: @Clyde

  16. @kaganovitch
    @JohnnyWalker123

    I thought that Orthodox Jews were culturally conservative.
    Why would they host a fundraiser for “Anti-Fa”?
    Very strange.


    Beth Jacob Ohev Sholom is a zombie synagogue that no longer has a minyan (quorum). They no longer even have a Rabbi. As such, it became fair game for "progressive" nominally Orthodox hipsters who have settled in Williamsburg in large numbers. All it takes is to get one semi-befuddled ninety year old man who is the the president or the treasurer to permit your "Jewish" organization to use the social hall or the sanctuary and you're in business. The idea that this demonstrates Orthodox sympathy for Antifa is absurd.

    Replies: @Clyde, @Alden

    You got their number K. On this Beth Jacob Ohev Sholom, the zombie synagogue. My easy guess that is was once an alive, functioning synagogue, but too many neighboring Orthodox moved away to the suburbs. And religious Jews don’t (not allowed) hop in their cars on Saturday to attend, they walk. Though I have seen some riding bicycles.

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    @Clyde

    It is ,or was I guess, one of the oldest functioning synagogues in the city. Williamsburg's Orthodox Jewish community pre WW2 and even for a couple of decades after, was not exclusively hasidic, so BJOS could draw from a large potential membership. When Williamsburg became entirely hasidic BJOS started dwindling "one funeral at a time" as the saying goes. Members either passed away or moved to Florida etc. The Orthodox neighborhood demographic was not going to join a non-hasidic synagogue so no replacement members. The last Rabbi (also well into his eighties)retired a few years ago, and zombiehood which had been looming for years, followed soon after.

  17. @AnotherDad
    Israel's a weird place. Normally you have a nation because you are and have a nation.

    Obviously the first oddity is that Israel is a re-creation--with a bunch of the previous occupants still there. (Creating endless tedious drama.)

    But the other deal, is that to reject integration--particularly in Europe, where Christianity integrated and de-tribalized essentially all other tribes--the Jews really wrapped up their tribalism in religion, with both a strong anti-integration ideology and all sorts of arcane religious practice, blocking assimilation.

    So while in a normal nation, national identity is fairly clear--you live there, as did your ancestors, and simply have the language, religion, norms, culture of the nation--in Israel, you have to figure this out. And you've empowered the religious bureaucracy to meddle in the "who is a Jew" question.

    I'd say "trainwreck". Except, to be fair on the fertility front, Israel--the one at least quasi-white nation not subject to Jewish minoritarianism--is beating the pants off the rest of the West. So clearly, overall it's working.

    Replies: @JohnnyWalker123, @Shmendrix, @Erik L

    “the language, religion, norms, culture of the nation” –
    Yes, we had all those, remarkably similar from place to place, all throughout the diaspora. As we do now.

  18. @kaganovitch
    @JohnnyWalker123

    I thought that Orthodox Jews were culturally conservative.
    Why would they host a fundraiser for “Anti-Fa”?
    Very strange.


    Beth Jacob Ohev Sholom is a zombie synagogue that no longer has a minyan (quorum). They no longer even have a Rabbi. As such, it became fair game for "progressive" nominally Orthodox hipsters who have settled in Williamsburg in large numbers. All it takes is to get one semi-befuddled ninety year old man who is the the president or the treasurer to permit your "Jewish" organization to use the social hall or the sanctuary and you're in business. The idea that this demonstrates Orthodox sympathy for Antifa is absurd.

    Replies: @Clyde, @Alden

    Sounds reasonable

  19. @kaganovitch
    @J.Ross

    What about the part where they’re in a nominally conservative synagogue?


    As I wrote earlier,I'm familiar with the synagogue. It is a "zombie" synagogue, not a functioning synagogue.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @J.Ross

    Ah, the Jewish equivalent of the Temple of Satan, or, for Christians, Unitarianism and half of Lutheranism. That was a really bizarre point because there’s no way the most cynical Haredi would put up with all the in-your-face sexual stuff and obscenity that are indentifying badges for antifa.

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    @J.Ross

    Ah, the Jewish equivalent of the Temple of Satan, or, for Christians, Unitarianism and half of Lutheranism.

    Yes, exactly. Very often the way congregations are structured, leaves them vulnerable to unscrupulous, nominally "religious entrepreneurs". Sometimes they are just trying to scam the real estate and flip to a developer, other times it's more in the nature of a hostile religious takeover.

  20. @Clyde
    @kaganovitch

    You got their number K. On this Beth Jacob Ohev Sholom, the zombie synagogue. My easy guess that is was once an alive, functioning synagogue, but too many neighboring Orthodox moved away to the suburbs. And religious Jews don't (not allowed) hop in their cars on Saturday to attend, they walk. Though I have seen some riding bicycles.

    Replies: @kaganovitch

    It is ,or was I guess, one of the oldest functioning synagogues in the city. Williamsburg’s Orthodox Jewish community pre WW2 and even for a couple of decades after, was not exclusively hasidic, so BJOS could draw from a large potential membership. When Williamsburg became entirely hasidic BJOS started dwindling “one funeral at a time” as the saying goes. Members either passed away or moved to Florida etc. The Orthodox neighborhood demographic was not going to join a non-hasidic synagogue so no replacement members. The last Rabbi (also well into his eighties)retired a few years ago, and zombiehood which had been looming for years, followed soon after.

  21. @J.Ross
    @kaganovitch

    Ah, the Jewish equivalent of the Temple of Satan, or, for Christians, Unitarianism and half of Lutheranism. That was a really bizarre point because there's no way the most cynical Haredi would put up with all the in-your-face sexual stuff and obscenity that are indentifying badges for antifa.

    Replies: @kaganovitch

    Ah, the Jewish equivalent of the Temple of Satan, or, for Christians, Unitarianism and half of Lutheranism.

    Yes, exactly. Very often the way congregations are structured, leaves them vulnerable to unscrupulous, nominally “religious entrepreneurs”. Sometimes they are just trying to scam the real estate and flip to a developer, other times it’s more in the nature of a hostile religious takeover.

  22. This man is productive in at least one sense:

    Avigdor Lieberman =

    Override a blaming.
    A vermilion badger.

    No admirable giver.
    Me govern admirable.

    Virile ogre badman.
    Me, adorable virgin.

    Reviling me abroad.

    But you can’t [ahem] top his party’s name:

    Yisrael Beitenu = Beanie lie rusty.

    I wonder what these would produce in Hebrew. Or Russian. Or Korean.

    https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/אנגרמה
    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Анаграмма
    https://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/어구전철

  23. @JohnnyWalker123
    Orthodox Brooklyn Synagogue to Host "Antifa" Rock Concert and Fundraiser


    https://www.unz.com/estriker/brooklyn-synagogue-to-host-antifa-rock-concert-and-fundraiser/

    Congregation Beth Jacob Ohev Shalom in Williamsburg, Brooklyn will be hosting one of the largest gatherings of “antifa” in New York City in recent memory this Saturday.

    The event is being headlined by “antifa” punk band (A) Truth, whose lead singer and drummer Christian Erazo also runs its sponsors “EastRev” (an anarchist punk record label) and “Brigada 71,” a soccer hooligan gang affiliated with the New York Cosmos.

    Organizations set to make official appearances include Marisa Holmes’ Metropolitan Anarchist Coordinating Council (MACC) and “antifa” prisoner support group NY Anarchist Black Cross (NYABC), whose members are based out of Bushwick and Brighton Beach.

     

    I thought that Orthodox Jews were culturally conservative.

    Why would they host a fundraiser for "Anti-Fa"?

    Very strange.

    Hmmm......

    Perhaps "Anti-Fa" is a Jewish-financed private militia that attacks the enemies of the Jews, in an attempt to shut them up. Since Jewish elites control the levers of power (media, politics, courts, etc), they can create a space for "Anti-Fa" to operate.

    Similar to how Jeffrey Epstein (remember him?) had space to operate because the prosecutors wouldn't prosecute him, the media killed news stories on him, Leslie Wexner gave him a billion dollars, and LOTS of powerful people (both Jewish and Gentile) befriended him.

    Replies: @Lot, @kaganovitch, @Reg Cæsar

    …a soccer hooligan gang affiliated with the New York Cosmos

    I thought that Orthodox Jews were culturally conservative.

    Considering that the Cosmos went out of business in 1985, that’s pretty conservative. Even reactionary.

    Like being a Brooklyn Dodgers fan in 1993.

    The Cosmos themselves quite conservatively fired goalie Shep Messing for posing nude in Viva. (Jim Bouton put him up to it.)

  24. As I said earlier: a people is a community of destiny. Period. It is an extended family, with its culture, memories, ambitions, traumas, cultural traits etc. Jews are a people defined by their ethnic/national religion & historical culture, memory, taboos, animosities, accomplishments, a sense of belonging.

    One should not confuse ancestry and identity. There is enough in Jewish historical experience that cannot be reduced to religion, especially in past 100-200 years, and it is a paradox within Jewish identity they themselves cannot break free from their self-imposed identity constraints (and racially defined identity by radical misojudaists, which had peaked in WW 2 and Nazi persecution).

    On the other hand, it is not realistic to consider people of Jewish ancestry, but not identity, to be Jews. Karl Marx is the best example. He was a German of Jewish ancestry, but not a Jew (whatever others may have thought). He could have been of French, Russian,..whichever ancestry, and that would not make him French or Russian. Herbert Karajan is, I think, of Greek ancestry- but it does not make him a Greek. The fact that Marx could, according to Israeli laws, immigrate to Israel & be considered fully Jewish doesn’t mean anything. He wouldn’t have done it, simply because he was a full German & not a Jew.

    The weakest element in “racially” defined Jewishness is their partial acceptance of Nazi definition of Jewishness. And this is where all barriers break, because many people who perished in the shoah were of Jewish ancestry- but not of identity, anymore. This brings us to the unpleasant illumination: Nazis killed many people who were not Jews anymore, but Hitler, Himmler, Heydrich.. thought they were.

    Israel, by its definition of Jewishness, is close to the Nazi racialist ideology, which has caused tumult in contemporary Israeli society, torn between archaic & modern ideas of nationality:

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/chief-rabbi-doubles-down-on-comments-against-immigrants-as-liberman-urges-probe/

    Chief rabbi doubles down on comments against immigrants as Liberman urges probe

    That said, Liberman is a truly modern nationalist, while rabbis & similar bunch are archaic, obsolete & divisive. But they too cannot behave otherwise. Religious literalists are, re these matters, the same all over the world.

  25. I have had people insist fervently to me that Judaism is strictly a religion, and that this is clearly so because there are Black and Chinese Jews. That’s some pretty intense religion that alters your DNA!

  26. @Lot
    @JohnnyWalker123

    “Anti-Fa” is a Jewish-financed private militia that attacks the enemies of the Jews,”

    The financing isn’t a big deal, brass knuckles and black bandannas are cheap. Getting them to sit still and submit to the initial ZioJew hypnosis is the hard part.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Pericles

    Getting them to sit still and submit to the initial ZioJew hypnosis is the hard part.

    Really? I’ve heard the subjects pay dearly for the privilege (by taking on debt, of course).

  27. At the same time, the majority decision said the rabbinate must formulate written rules on the issue within a year.

    This in general is how the Israeli courts operate. They demand that all government ministries adapt rules and procedure. Rules which are inevitably interpreted by upper middle class liberal lawyers and bureaucrats, whose guidance becomes the only permissible action for the minister. This is how liberals have been able to continue to exert power in a country that has been becoming stubbornly more conservative over the decades.

    It’s a situation that Netanyahu has allowed to continue because it prevented his coalition partners to the right from making too-exorbitant demands, but eventually someday Israel will have a Poland-style judicial revolution and it won’t be pretty.

    Some details here: https://www.timesofisrael.com/meet-the-conservative-activists-who-want-to-override-the-supreme-court/

    • Agree: Kaganovitch
    • Replies: @Kaganovitch
    @IHTG

    It should also be noted, that almost all the power claimed by the Israeli judiciary is self granted. Aharon Barak, for many years president of the Israeli Supreme Court, in the absence of any legislative or constitutional authority to do so,simply declared all administrative decisions subject to judicial review for 'reasonableness'. It need hardly be said that this amounts to a judicial veto over any and all democratic decisions. One would be hard pressed to find a more elitist anti- democratic jurist in the Western world than Barak.

    Replies: @IHTG

  28. Someone needs to alert Susan Goldberg and Elizabeth Kolbert of National Geographic that some of their co-ethnics are endorsing pseudo-scientific, long discredited notions of race and ethnicity, ASAP! If I may quote Ms. Kolbert from 2018: “There’s no scientific basis for race- it’s a made up label.”

  29. I was watching the Fake History Channel program about the holocaust last night. It seems that, among a litany of other NAZI atrocities committed in the 1930’s, there was Mengeleesque biometric testing undertaken to prevent Jew to non-Jew marriages

  30. @silviosilver
    @kaganovitch

    10/10 for damage control. Safe bet that 90% of the goy suckers on here -- though they fancy themselves "noticers" -- will swallow that whole.

    Replies: @Kaganovitch, @Dissident

    Do you actually know anything about the matter? Or is ” hasbara” your default position, no matter the facts? Surely ‘noticing’ implies some commitment to empiricism, not your own fever dreams.

  31. @AnotherDad
    Israel's a weird place. Normally you have a nation because you are and have a nation.

    Obviously the first oddity is that Israel is a re-creation--with a bunch of the previous occupants still there. (Creating endless tedious drama.)

    But the other deal, is that to reject integration--particularly in Europe, where Christianity integrated and de-tribalized essentially all other tribes--the Jews really wrapped up their tribalism in religion, with both a strong anti-integration ideology and all sorts of arcane religious practice, blocking assimilation.

    So while in a normal nation, national identity is fairly clear--you live there, as did your ancestors, and simply have the language, religion, norms, culture of the nation--in Israel, you have to figure this out. And you've empowered the religious bureaucracy to meddle in the "who is a Jew" question.

    I'd say "trainwreck". Except, to be fair on the fertility front, Israel--the one at least quasi-white nation not subject to Jewish minoritarianism--is beating the pants off the rest of the West. So clearly, overall it's working.

    Replies: @JohnnyWalker123, @Shmendrix, @Erik L

    “So while in a normal nation, national identity is fairly clear–you live there, as did your ancestors,…” I’m not sure this is true. Are there not several nations in Europe that are spread out historically over what are currently different countries? I have a sense from history class that many groups which consider themselves nations are spread and mixed with other populations within the same geographic regions.

    Happy to be corrected, though

  32. @IHTG

    At the same time, the majority decision said the rabbinate must formulate written rules on the issue within a year.
     
    This in general is how the Israeli courts operate. They demand that all government ministries adapt rules and procedure. Rules which are inevitably interpreted by upper middle class liberal lawyers and bureaucrats, whose guidance becomes the only permissible action for the minister. This is how liberals have been able to continue to exert power in a country that has been becoming stubbornly more conservative over the decades.

    It's a situation that Netanyahu has allowed to continue because it prevented his coalition partners to the right from making too-exorbitant demands, but eventually someday Israel will have a Poland-style judicial revolution and it won't be pretty.

    Some details here: https://www.timesofisrael.com/meet-the-conservative-activists-who-want-to-override-the-supreme-court/

    Replies: @Kaganovitch

    It should also be noted, that almost all the power claimed by the Israeli judiciary is self granted. Aharon Barak, for many years president of the Israeli Supreme Court, in the absence of any legislative or constitutional authority to do so,simply declared all administrative decisions subject to judicial review for ‘reasonableness’. It need hardly be said that this amounts to a judicial veto over any and all democratic decisions. One would be hard pressed to find a more elitist anti- democratic jurist in the Western world than Barak.

    • Replies: @IHTG
    @Kaganovitch

    Alt-right type people on the Internet tend to think Israel is a "hyperethnocentric" far right nationalist state, even more nationalist than Poland or Orban's Hungary. But in many ways it's more like Brexit-era Britain. Facing towards populism, but with massive resistance from the opposition and a thoroughly liberal institutional machinery constantly getting in the way.

    Replies: @kaganovitch

  33. Does anyone know why the socialist, atheist ashkenazi who dominated early Israel gave so much power to Orthodox rabbis? It seems bizarre.

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    @Rob

    Does anyone know why the socialist, atheist ashkenazi who dominated early Israel gave so much power to Orthodox rabbis? It seems bizarre.

    It's sort of complicated. While the secular elite did control all the institutions of the State, there was a significant plurality perhaps even a majority who defined themselves as people of faith. Ben Gurion was reluctant to form a governing coalition with Mapam(communist party), so he was dependent on United Religious Front party, which in turn gave Orthodox much leverage.
    Add to that , separation of Church and State is an American idea, and Israel's early leaders were much more familiar with European and Ottoman systems , where personal status was often governed by religious authority.
    On top of that Ben Gurion thought Ultra-Orthodoxy was a dying movement and he could afford to throw them a bone like draft exemption etc. as it would be irrelevant soon enough(not a great call).

    There was also a nostalgic aspect to their dealings with the Haredim, as many of them had pious Grandfathers they revered even though they themselves were secular. Shimon Peres (who was Ben Gurion's point man on negotiations with the Haredim) writes in his "The Imaginary Voyage: With Theodor Herzl in Israel" that whenever a thorny issue arose in the relationship between religion and state,he would ask himself "whether grandfather would agree with what I’d done.”

    A combination of these factors, plus inability to form governing coalitions w/o religious parties, gets you to present situation.

    Replies: @Rob, @Dissident, @Not Raul

  34. @silviosilver
    @kaganovitch

    10/10 for damage control. Safe bet that 90% of the goy suckers on here -- though they fancy themselves "noticers" -- will swallow that whole.

    Replies: @Kaganovitch, @Dissident

    10/10 for damage control. Safe bet that 90% of the goy suckers on here — though they fancy themselves “noticers” — will swallow that whole.

    LOL!

    Readers of this blog who used-to listen to the late “King” of NY talk radio, the legendary Bob Grant, may recognize the name “Eugene from Albany”. And recall it as that of one of the more deranged of the many colorful characters whose calls regularly graced Grant’s daily broadcast. The offspring of a Black-Jewish union (I cannot recall which parent was which), this individual was an absolutely rabid monomaniac. The subject of his pathological obsession? None other than that, which more than any other, would put him in good company here at UR.

    Of all of this individual’s weekly rants* that I had the pleasure of hearing over the years, there was one in which he made a claim that was so utterly, comically, over-the-top incoherent and ridiculous that I have remembered it to this day– as much as twenty or more years later. Railing, specifically, against the Satmar community that is heavily concentrated in both Williamsburg, Brooklyn as well as upstate in Orange County, Eugene said the following (paraphrasing from memory). …those Satmar hasidic Jews…they won’t serve in the American military but they’ll go to Israel and serve in the IDF!.

    [MORE]

    (*Grant had, at least during the years that I listened to his show, a strictly enforced Once-A-Week Rule.)

    That gem from the infamous “Eugene from Albany” immediately came to mind when I read your comment. The reason will no doubt be obvious to anyone with even minimal familiarity with both Satmar as well as with the most basic and broad differences between the many subsets, strains and factions within Orthodox Jewry. The communities that have dominated Williamsburg for decades now are firmly at the right-most end of the Orthodox spectrum. These are those that are the most insular, separate and eschewing of secular culture and secular education.

    If there exists any functioning Orthodox Jewish entity that would, in any way, align itself with or even join for any reason the likes of Antifa, such an entity would most certainly be found on the complete opposite end of the spectrum– the leftmost fringe of (nominal) (Modern-) Orthodoxy. Left-wing Orthodoxy has a strong presence in places such as Manhattan’s Upper West and Upper East Side, and Riverdale, NY. (Indeed, two of those locations account, respectively, are where each of the two (nominally) (Modern-) Orthodox rabbis who performed/sanctioned Ivanka Trump’s highly dubious conversion* is a prominent figure.)

    (*I was going to use a stronger, less ambiguous term than ‘dubious’ but decided I would do best to exercise restraint. Suffice it to point-out (a) that in order to be valid, conversion to Judaism must be free of any ulterior motives– few of which are more obvious than marriage; and (b) Ms. Ivanka’s manner of dress alone, which does not meet even the most lenient halakhic standards, raises serious suspicions whether another of the absolutely essential requirements for valid conversion was met: Full acceptance of the yoke of the commandments (ol hamitzvos).

    • Replies: @Clyde
    @Dissident

    Good post! Bob Grant was the King! Though I only heard him a few times due to not living in the NYC region. I heard him a few times subbing for Sean Hannity radio, so he was being heard nationwide. Grant also would come on as a guest on the same show.
    One of his favorite catch phrases - "It's sick outside and getting sicker". He was of Italian background.


    Eugene said the following (paraphrasing from memory). …those Satmar hasidic Jews…they won’t serve in the American military but they’ll go to Israel and serve in the IDF!.
     
    Nutty Eugene - Satmars are too Orthodox to join the IDF. I think they are also anti-The founding of Israel due to the Messiah not having arrived yet. None the less there is a large Satmar population in Israel. NY too. I saw a few at Miami Beach (the town, not the actual sandy beach) walking around on a warm day with their big fur hats on. Wow! Those hats must go for at least $300 and probably more like $500.

    Replies: @kaganovitch

  35. @Dissident
    @silviosilver


    10/10 for damage control. Safe bet that 90% of the goy suckers on here — though they fancy themselves “noticers” — will swallow that whole.

     

    LOL!

    Readers of this blog who used-to listen to the late "King" of NY talk radio, the legendary Bob Grant, may recognize the name "Eugene from Albany". And recall it as that of one of the more deranged of the many colorful characters whose calls regularly graced Grant's daily broadcast. The offspring of a Black-Jewish union (I cannot recall which parent was which), this individual was an absolutely rabid monomaniac. The subject of his pathological obsession? None other than that, which more than any other, would put him in good company here at UR.

    Of all of this individual's weekly rants* that I had the pleasure of hearing over the years, there was one in which he made a claim that was so utterly, comically, over-the-top incoherent and ridiculous that I have remembered it to this day-- as much as twenty or more years later. Railing, specifically, against the Satmar community that is heavily concentrated in both Williamsburg, Brooklyn as well as upstate in Orange County, Eugene said the following (paraphrasing from memory). ...those Satmar hasidic Jews...they won't serve in the American military but they'll go to Israel and serve in the IDF!.

    (*Grant had, at least during the years that I listened to his show, a strictly enforced Once-A-Week Rule.)

    That gem from the infamous "Eugene from Albany" immediately came to mind when I read your comment. The reason will no doubt be obvious to anyone with even minimal familiarity with both Satmar as well as with the most basic and broad differences between the many subsets, strains and factions within Orthodox Jewry. The communities that have dominated Williamsburg for decades now are firmly at the right-most end of the Orthodox spectrum. These are those that are the most insular, separate and eschewing of secular culture and secular education.

    If there exists any functioning Orthodox Jewish entity that would, in any way, align itself with or even join for any reason the likes of Antifa, such an entity would most certainly be found on the complete opposite end of the spectrum-- the leftmost fringe of (nominal) (Modern-) Orthodoxy. Left-wing Orthodoxy has a strong presence in places such as Manhattan's Upper West and Upper East Side, and Riverdale, NY. (Indeed, two of those locations account, respectively, are where each of the two (nominally) (Modern-) Orthodox rabbis who performed/sanctioned Ivanka Trump's highly dubious conversion* is a prominent figure.)

    (*I was going to use a stronger, less ambiguous term than 'dubious' but decided I would do best to exercise restraint. Suffice it to point-out (a) that in order to be valid, conversion to Judaism must be free of any ulterior motives-- few of which are more obvious than marriage; and (b) Ms. Ivanka's manner of dress alone, which does not meet even the most lenient halakhic standards, raises serious suspicions whether another of the absolutely essential requirements for valid conversion was met: Full acceptance of the yoke of the commandments (ol hamitzvos).

    Replies: @Clyde

    Good post! Bob Grant was the King! Though I only heard him a few times due to not living in the NYC region. I heard him a few times subbing for Sean Hannity radio, so he was being heard nationwide. Grant also would come on as a guest on the same show.
    One of his favorite catch phrases – “It’s sick outside and getting sicker”. He was of Italian background.

    Eugene said the following (paraphrasing from memory). …those Satmar hasidic Jews…they won’t serve in the American military but they’ll go to Israel and serve in the IDF!.

    Nutty Eugene – Satmars are too Orthodox to join the IDF. I think they are also anti-The founding of Israel due to the Messiah not having arrived yet. None the less there is a large Satmar population in Israel. NY too. I saw a few at Miami Beach (the town, not the actual sandy beach) walking around on a warm day with their big fur hats on. Wow! Those hats must go for at least $300 and probably more like $500.

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    @Clyde

    Those hats must go for at least $300 and probably more like $500.

    Try $3000.

  36. @Clyde
    @JohnnyWalker123


    Israel also receives huge amounts of money from the U.S.
    According to one estimate, Israel received $1.6 trillion in financial assistance between 1973 and 2003.
     
    This is a bullshit estimate since aid has been about 3 billion per year. In this same time frame how much have we spent on tribalist/ Islamic supremacist nations in the Middle East? Primarily via our military and Navy to keep the sea lanes open for free flow of Muslim oil at nice market prices?
    Got any estimates for this one?
    Didn't think so.

    Replies: @Adam Smith

    It’s a bullshit estimate to say that Israel has only cost the U.S. taxpayer 3 billion each year.

    What do you think all that protection for Israel cost the U.S. taxpayer?

    What do you think the glorious wars for Greater Israel have cost the U.S. taxcattle?

    It’s not that Israel received $1.6 trillion in cash from the U.S. taxpayer between 1973 and 2003…

    It’s that Israel has cost the U.S. taxpayer $1.6 trillion between 1973 and 2003.

    https://ifamericansknew.org/stat/cost.html

    There are many more potential categories of costs that are even more difficult to quantify. All in all, Stauffer estimates that Israel cost the US about $1.6 trillion between 1973 and 2003 alone—more than twice the cost of the Vietnam war.

    Looks like you didn’t read the link Johnny posted.

    There will be no peace in Mesopotamia while Israel is allowed to exist in Palestine.

    • Replies: @Clyde
    @Adam Smith

    You do a decent crypto-Muslim imitation.

    Replies: @Adam Smith

  37. anonymous[251] • Disclaimer says:

    It’s been my understanding that these ex Soviet, somewhat jewish folks only go to Israel as a first stop before they move on to places they want to go like Brooklyn, Las Vegas, LA, Sweden, Germany.

    Most all of the Reagan era propaganda to free Soviet Jew refuseniks “Let My People Go” this was just a propaganda another one of Republican failed campaigns trying to get more than 20% of American Jews to vote Republican or get the American Jewish media to stop always attacking White Republicans, destroying their careers like they destroyed Richard Nixon.

    Pandering to this tribe never seems to work, same as pandering to the likes of Jessie Jackson and Rev (Not!) Al Sharpton.

  38. @Kaganovitch
    @IHTG

    It should also be noted, that almost all the power claimed by the Israeli judiciary is self granted. Aharon Barak, for many years president of the Israeli Supreme Court, in the absence of any legislative or constitutional authority to do so,simply declared all administrative decisions subject to judicial review for 'reasonableness'. It need hardly be said that this amounts to a judicial veto over any and all democratic decisions. One would be hard pressed to find a more elitist anti- democratic jurist in the Western world than Barak.

    Replies: @IHTG

    Alt-right type people on the Internet tend to think Israel is a “hyperethnocentric” far right nationalist state, even more nationalist than Poland or Orban’s Hungary. But in many ways it’s more like Brexit-era Britain. Facing towards populism, but with massive resistance from the opposition and a thoroughly liberal institutional machinery constantly getting in the way.

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    @IHTG

    Alt-right type people on the Internet tend to think Israel is a “hyperethnocentric” far right nationalist state, even more nationalist than Poland or Orban’s Hungary. But in many ways it’s more like Brexit-era Britain. Facing towards populism, but with massive resistance from the opposition and a thoroughly liberal institutional machinery constantly getting in the way.

    Bingo. The New Class , Ha'aretz demographic in Israel is basically just as destructive as their American Jewish counterparts. Thank God they don't have the numbers to prevail.

  39. @Hail

    DNA testing to prove one’s Judaism should be allowed.
     

    conducting genetic tests to prove one’s Judaism.
     
    What is the threshold 23andMe(-like test) score to qualify? 90%? 75%? 51%?

    And at least on 23andMe, they only test Ashkenazi Jewish. They don't test for other sorts of Jews.

    Of interest: At the anthropology-and-genetics forum Anthrogenica, someone identifying as a Sephardic Jew posted her 23andMe results (2016 edition), as follows:

    Paper-genealogy:


    two of my grandparents are from north Africa and two other are from Uzbekistan (all sides are Jewish)
     
    23andMe region-ancestry guesses:

    85% Middle eastern and North African:
    - 70% Middle eastern
    - 13% North African
    - 1.5% broadly middle eastern and north African

    14.0% European
    - 6.2% Italian
    - 3.3% Broadly southern European
    - 1.2% Ashkenazi
    - 3.2% Broadly European

    0.3% East Asian and Native American
     

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

    AFAIK, they look at one’s mitochrondrial DNA since that is the DNA that was inherited from one’s mother.

    • Replies: @Hail
    @Mr. XYZ

    A low-hanging-fruit criticism of such a system:

    An applicant shows up and demands to be let in: Seven Congolese great-grandparents; one Jewish great-grandparent, who happens to be the mother's mother's mother.

    Jewish mtdna line? Check.

    Is the person in, or out?

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

  40. @Mr. XYZ
    @Hail

    AFAIK, they look at one's mitochrondrial DNA since that is the DNA that was inherited from one's mother.

    Replies: @Hail

    A low-hanging-fruit criticism of such a system:

    An applicant shows up and demands to be let in: Seven Congolese great-grandparents; one Jewish great-grandparent, who happens to be the mother’s mother’s mother.

    Jewish mtdna line? Check.

    Is the person in, or out?

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    @Hail

    By the standards of Israel's Chief Rabbinate, such a person should be in.

  41. @Hail
    @Mr. XYZ

    A low-hanging-fruit criticism of such a system:

    An applicant shows up and demands to be let in: Seven Congolese great-grandparents; one Jewish great-grandparent, who happens to be the mother's mother's mother.

    Jewish mtdna line? Check.

    Is the person in, or out?

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

    By the standards of Israel’s Chief Rabbinate, such a person should be in.

  42. @Rob
    Does anyone know why the socialist, atheist ashkenazi who dominated early Israel gave so much power to Orthodox rabbis? It seems bizarre.

    Replies: @kaganovitch

    Does anyone know why the socialist, atheist ashkenazi who dominated early Israel gave so much power to Orthodox rabbis? It seems bizarre.

    It’s sort of complicated. While the secular elite did control all the institutions of the State, there was a significant plurality perhaps even a majority who defined themselves as people of faith. Ben Gurion was reluctant to form a governing coalition with Mapam(communist party), so he was dependent on United Religious Front party, which in turn gave Orthodox much leverage.
    Add to that , separation of Church and State is an American idea, and Israel’s early leaders were much more familiar with European and Ottoman systems , where personal status was often governed by religious authority.
    On top of that Ben Gurion thought Ultra-Orthodoxy was a dying movement and he could afford to throw them a bone like draft exemption etc. as it would be irrelevant soon enough(not a great call).

    There was also a nostalgic aspect to their dealings with the Haredim, as many of them had pious Grandfathers they revered even though they themselves were secular. Shimon Peres (who was Ben Gurion’s point man on negotiations with the Haredim) writes in his “The Imaginary Voyage: With Theodor Herzl in Israel” that whenever a thorny issue arose in the relationship between religion and state,he would ask himself “whether grandfather would agree with what I’d done.”

    A combination of these factors, plus inability to form governing coalitions w/o religious parties, gets you to present situation.

    • Replies: @Rob
    @kaganovitch

    Thanks, kaganovitch, that clears things up.

    , @Dissident
    @kaganovitch


    On top of that Ben Gurion thought Ultra-Orthodoxy was a dying movement
     
    The way that is worded implies that there was some "movement" that could accurately and legitimately be called "Ultra-Orthodoxy" and which had arisen at some point prior to the establishment in 1948 of the Zionist State (that has usurped the sacred name Israel).

    I would contend, first of all, that what became known as Orthodox Judaism is essentially nothing more than that which, up until the time of the Haskalah, was simply the normative Judaism that nearly all Jews practiced. There was no such thing as a Jewish identity divorced or distinct from the religion of Judaism. (I would further contend that this, with the addition of the qualifier inherent, remains true today and always will.)

    As for the term "Ultra-Orthodox", it is clearly predicated upon the position that it is what is known as Modern-Orthodoxy that is the normative standard. That is at least tendentious. [1] Haredi[2] is a preferable term but is not without its own problems.

    Second, it must never be forgotten that Zionism, from its inception and in all of its forms, was unequivocally condemned by a near-unanimous consensus of the leading rabbinic authorities.

    By the time of the establishment of the Zionist State, the relationship between Zionism and religious Jews had become quite complicated. Since then, there are basically three main groups that Orthodox Jews fall into with regard to their position on this matter:

    1.) Those who are emphatically anti-Zionist. Not recognizing the State, they refrain from voting in its elections or serving in its government.

    This camp, while actually including many different communities, is generally broadly referred-to as "Satmar" and/or "Edah Charedis(/Haredit)". Only a small sub-set of the anti-Zionist camp, generally known as Neturei Karta, is explicitly and actively pro-Palestinan/ pro other sworn enemies of the Zionist entity*. But even those who identify as Neturei Karta are split into several factions, not all of which approve of the afore-stated position, and at least some of whom emphatically condemn it.

    *Note that oft-repeated claims to the contrary notwithstanding, no faction of Neturei Karta in any way supports any form of terrorism or other violence against.

    2.) Those who are at least de jure non-Zionist but nonetheless recognize the State and participate quite actively in its politics and government. This camp is broadly known as Agudist after the Haredi political party named Agudas Yisrael (Agudath Israel).

    Such participation was at least initially based on a rationale that once the State was established, the best way to defend and promote traditional religious observance and values was to work from within the State.

    3.) Those that are openly, explicitly and fully Zionist.

    This camp, originally known by the name of their political party Mizrahi (later Mafdal) insists that Zionism is not only inherently perfectly compatible with Judaism but actually mandated by it. (I would contend that such a position can only be maintained by selective, tendentious treatment of the relevant canonical texts and received oral traditions from rabbinical authorities.)

    Within each of these three main groups that I have enumerated above are many sub-groups with variously differing and nuanced positions. There are also more than a few Orthodox Jews who straddle the fence either between between the anti-Zionist and non-Zionist camps or between the Zionist and (at least nominally) non-Zionist ones.

    NOTES:
    [1] I might add here that the lines that divide Modern-Orthodoxy from the more traditionalist/conservative/right-wing strains within Jewish Orthodoxy that are collectively called "Ultra-Orthodoxy" or Haredi are not always clear, absolute or unambiguous. As I suspect you are well aware, there can be considerable convergence and overlap between the more right-wing elements within the Modern-Orthodox camp and the more left-wing elements within the Haredi camp. Note that my use of the terms right and left here is limited to the specific religious meaning those have within the context of Orthodox Jewry.

    It might also be germane to repeat the explanation I once heard from an individual who despite ideologically identifying more with Modern-Orthodoxy, nonetheless chose to live and worship in a more traditional Orthodox community. "It can be difficult to find a Modern-Orthodox community that isn't, in reality, little more than mostly people who are just looking to be 'Orthodox-lite'." Conversely, in the interest of balance, I would add that there are some areas in which on the whole and in practice, I find the Modern-Orthodox to come closer to meeting the ideal demanded by authentic Judaism as I understand it than large swathes of the Haredi.

    [2] An alternate spelling of Haredi is Charedi. As with other transliterations such as Chanukah, the "Ch" is used to more accurately represent the sound of the Hebrew letter ches, which is decidedly not the same as the English h.

    , @Not Raul
    @kaganovitch

    So, other than pragmatic political considerations, pride played a big role, but guilt wasn’t mentioned. That’s very interesting. Thanks.

  43. @Clyde
    @Dissident

    Good post! Bob Grant was the King! Though I only heard him a few times due to not living in the NYC region. I heard him a few times subbing for Sean Hannity radio, so he was being heard nationwide. Grant also would come on as a guest on the same show.
    One of his favorite catch phrases - "It's sick outside and getting sicker". He was of Italian background.


    Eugene said the following (paraphrasing from memory). …those Satmar hasidic Jews…they won’t serve in the American military but they’ll go to Israel and serve in the IDF!.
     
    Nutty Eugene - Satmars are too Orthodox to join the IDF. I think they are also anti-The founding of Israel due to the Messiah not having arrived yet. None the less there is a large Satmar population in Israel. NY too. I saw a few at Miami Beach (the town, not the actual sandy beach) walking around on a warm day with their big fur hats on. Wow! Those hats must go for at least $300 and probably more like $500.

    Replies: @kaganovitch

    Those hats must go for at least $300 and probably more like $500.

    Try $3000.

  44. @kaganovitch
    @Rob

    Does anyone know why the socialist, atheist ashkenazi who dominated early Israel gave so much power to Orthodox rabbis? It seems bizarre.

    It's sort of complicated. While the secular elite did control all the institutions of the State, there was a significant plurality perhaps even a majority who defined themselves as people of faith. Ben Gurion was reluctant to form a governing coalition with Mapam(communist party), so he was dependent on United Religious Front party, which in turn gave Orthodox much leverage.
    Add to that , separation of Church and State is an American idea, and Israel's early leaders were much more familiar with European and Ottoman systems , where personal status was often governed by religious authority.
    On top of that Ben Gurion thought Ultra-Orthodoxy was a dying movement and he could afford to throw them a bone like draft exemption etc. as it would be irrelevant soon enough(not a great call).

    There was also a nostalgic aspect to their dealings with the Haredim, as many of them had pious Grandfathers they revered even though they themselves were secular. Shimon Peres (who was Ben Gurion's point man on negotiations with the Haredim) writes in his "The Imaginary Voyage: With Theodor Herzl in Israel" that whenever a thorny issue arose in the relationship between religion and state,he would ask himself "whether grandfather would agree with what I’d done.”

    A combination of these factors, plus inability to form governing coalitions w/o religious parties, gets you to present situation.

    Replies: @Rob, @Dissident, @Not Raul

    Thanks, kaganovitch, that clears things up.

  45. @IHTG
    @Kaganovitch

    Alt-right type people on the Internet tend to think Israel is a "hyperethnocentric" far right nationalist state, even more nationalist than Poland or Orban's Hungary. But in many ways it's more like Brexit-era Britain. Facing towards populism, but with massive resistance from the opposition and a thoroughly liberal institutional machinery constantly getting in the way.

    Replies: @kaganovitch

    Alt-right type people on the Internet tend to think Israel is a “hyperethnocentric” far right nationalist state, even more nationalist than Poland or Orban’s Hungary. But in many ways it’s more like Brexit-era Britain. Facing towards populism, but with massive resistance from the opposition and a thoroughly liberal institutional machinery constantly getting in the way.

    Bingo. The New Class , Ha’aretz demographic in Israel is basically just as destructive as their American Jewish counterparts. Thank God they don’t have the numbers to prevail.

  46. @Adam Smith
    @Clyde

    It's a bullshit estimate to say that Israel has only cost the U.S. taxpayer 3 billion each year.

    What do you think all that protection for Israel cost the U.S. taxpayer?

    What do you think the glorious wars for Greater Israel have cost the U.S. taxcattle?

    It's not that Israel received $1.6 trillion in cash from the U.S. taxpayer between 1973 and 2003...

    It's that Israel has cost the U.S. taxpayer $1.6 trillion between 1973 and 2003.

    https://ifamericansknew.org/stat/cost.html

    There are many more potential categories of costs that are even more difficult to quantify. All in all, Stauffer estimates that Israel cost the US about $1.6 trillion between 1973 and 2003 alone—more than twice the cost of the Vietnam war.

    Looks like you didn't read the link Johnny posted.

    There will be no peace in Mesopotamia while Israel is allowed to exist in Palestine.

    Replies: @Clyde

    You do a decent crypto-Muslim imitation.

    • Replies: @Adam Smith
    @Clyde

    Thanks. Allāhu Akbar!

  47. @kaganovitch
    @Rob

    Does anyone know why the socialist, atheist ashkenazi who dominated early Israel gave so much power to Orthodox rabbis? It seems bizarre.

    It's sort of complicated. While the secular elite did control all the institutions of the State, there was a significant plurality perhaps even a majority who defined themselves as people of faith. Ben Gurion was reluctant to form a governing coalition with Mapam(communist party), so he was dependent on United Religious Front party, which in turn gave Orthodox much leverage.
    Add to that , separation of Church and State is an American idea, and Israel's early leaders were much more familiar with European and Ottoman systems , where personal status was often governed by religious authority.
    On top of that Ben Gurion thought Ultra-Orthodoxy was a dying movement and he could afford to throw them a bone like draft exemption etc. as it would be irrelevant soon enough(not a great call).

    There was also a nostalgic aspect to their dealings with the Haredim, as many of them had pious Grandfathers they revered even though they themselves were secular. Shimon Peres (who was Ben Gurion's point man on negotiations with the Haredim) writes in his "The Imaginary Voyage: With Theodor Herzl in Israel" that whenever a thorny issue arose in the relationship between religion and state,he would ask himself "whether grandfather would agree with what I’d done.”

    A combination of these factors, plus inability to form governing coalitions w/o religious parties, gets you to present situation.

    Replies: @Rob, @Dissident, @Not Raul

    On top of that Ben Gurion thought Ultra-Orthodoxy was a dying movement

    The way that is worded implies that there was some “movement” that could accurately and legitimately be called “Ultra-Orthodoxy” and which had arisen at some point prior to the establishment in 1948 of the Zionist State (that has usurped the sacred name Israel).

    I would contend, first of all, that what became known as Orthodox Judaism is essentially nothing more than that which, up until the time of the Haskalah, was simply the normative Judaism that nearly all Jews practiced. There was no such thing as a Jewish identity divorced or distinct from the religion of Judaism. (I would further contend that this, with the addition of the qualifier inherent, remains true today and always will.)

    As for the term “Ultra-Orthodox”, it is clearly predicated upon the position that it is what is known as Modern-Orthodoxy that is the normative standard. That is at least tendentious. [1] Haredi[2] is a preferable term but is not without its own problems.

    Second, it must never be forgotten that Zionism, from its inception and in all of its forms, was unequivocally condemned by a near-unanimous consensus of the leading rabbinic authorities.

    By the time of the establishment of the Zionist State, the relationship between Zionism and religious Jews had become quite complicated. Since then, there are basically three main groups that Orthodox Jews fall into with regard to their position on this matter:

    [MORE]

    1.) Those who are emphatically anti-Zionist. Not recognizing the State, they refrain from voting in its elections or serving in its government.

    This camp, while actually including many different communities, is generally broadly referred-to as “Satmar” and/or “Edah Charedis(/Haredit)”. Only a small sub-set of the anti-Zionist camp, generally known as Neturei Karta, is explicitly and actively pro-Palestinan/ pro other sworn enemies of the Zionist entity*. But even those who identify as Neturei Karta are split into several factions, not all of which approve of the afore-stated position, and at least some of whom emphatically condemn it.

    *Note that oft-repeated claims to the contrary notwithstanding, no faction of Neturei Karta in any way supports any form of terrorism or other violence against.

    2.) Those who are at least de jure non-Zionist but nonetheless recognize the State and participate quite actively in its politics and government. This camp is broadly known as Agudist after the Haredi political party named Agudas Yisrael (Agudath Israel).

    Such participation was at least initially based on a rationale that once the State was established, the best way to defend and promote traditional religious observance and values was to work from within the State.

    3.) Those that are openly, explicitly and fully Zionist.

    This camp, originally known by the name of their political party Mizrahi (later Mafdal) insists that Zionism is not only inherently perfectly compatible with Judaism but actually mandated by it. (I would contend that such a position can only be maintained by selective, tendentious treatment of the relevant canonical texts and received oral traditions from rabbinical authorities.)

    Within each of these three main groups that I have enumerated above are many sub-groups with variously differing and nuanced positions. There are also more than a few Orthodox Jews who straddle the fence either between between the anti-Zionist and non-Zionist camps or between the Zionist and (at least nominally) non-Zionist ones.

    NOTES:
    [1] I might add here that the lines that divide Modern-Orthodoxy from the more traditionalist/conservative/right-wing strains within Jewish Orthodoxy that are collectively called “Ultra-Orthodoxy” or Haredi are not always clear, absolute or unambiguous. As I suspect you are well aware, there can be considerable convergence and overlap between the more right-wing elements within the Modern-Orthodox camp and the more left-wing elements within the Haredi camp. Note that my use of the terms right and left here is limited to the specific religious meaning those have within the context of Orthodox Jewry.

    It might also be germane to repeat the explanation I once heard from an individual who despite ideologically identifying more with Modern-Orthodoxy, nonetheless chose to live and worship in a more traditional Orthodox community. “It can be difficult to find a Modern-Orthodox community that isn’t, in reality, little more than mostly people who are just looking to be ‘Orthodox-lite’.” Conversely, in the interest of balance, I would add that there are some areas in which on the whole and in practice, I find the Modern-Orthodox to come closer to meeting the ideal demanded by authentic Judaism as I understand it than large swathes of the Haredi.

    [2] An alternate spelling of Haredi is Charedi. As with other transliterations such as Chanukah, the “Ch” is used to more accurately represent the sound of the Hebrew letter ches, which is decidedly not the same as the English h.

  48. I agree with most of what you write here. I was just trying to be succinct w/o getting into the weeds of every little detail. I would take issue, somewhat, with the following though–

    Second, it must never be forgotten that Zionism, from its inception and in all of its forms, was unequivocally condemned by a near-unanimous consensus of the leading rabbinic authorities.

    This is not entirely so. While most of the more Famous rabbanim were anti-Zionist (with the exception of Kovner Rav, Rav Eyges, Rav Reines, Rav Kook & some others), many,perhaps even a majority of the lesser known rabbanim in Lita were members of Mizrachi. It is also true that for many years, chassidim of the Alexander persuasion, one of the largest groups in Poland, were Mizrachi voters as well.

    • Replies: @Dissident
    @kaganovitch

    Let me first thank you for this, as well as at least one previous reply you had made to me that I do not think I acknowledged. I always appreciate respectful, thoughtful replies made in good faith, even though I at times can be remiss in acknowledging them.


    I was just trying to be succinct w/o getting into the weeds of every little detail.
     
    I understand and I actually suspected that was likely the case. In fact I had initially begun my previous reply to you with the following introductory sentence but subsequently removed it before arriving at the final version that I posted.

    While I realize that it may very well not have been your intent to advance or endorse such a characterization (your personal views in this area remain unclear to me), I find it necessary all-the-same to challenge it.

    I realize that I veered considerably off into tangents but felt compelled (as has so often been the case) to present the information that I did, hopefully providing some elucidation and clarity on matters for which I have seen confusion, misconceptions and misinformation abound. (Matters that, for obvious reasons, are of particular and great concern to me.) Returning to the topic (one that is very much part of Mr. Sailer's post that forms the basis for this comment thread) of the (Zionist) Israeli State rabbinate, I wish to offer some additional remarks.

    First, across the spectrum of serious and learned Orthodox Jews, there is broad, perhaps nearly unanimous consensus that said rabbinate is an entirely political construct; and that merely being a member of said body is no indication of possesing authentic religious authority. That much, at least, is acknowledged even by many within the fully Zionist camp.

    On the question of "why the socialist, atheist ashkenazi who dominated early Israel gave so much power to Orthodox rabbis" that Rob had posed, I don't know that I would dispute any of the answers that you offered in your reply to him. I wonder, though, whether you have ever considered the possibility of a more cynical motivation: In order to create a veneer of religious authenticity and sanction for their modern, profane, sacrilegious State (Medinat Yisrael).

    Whether or not the founders of the Zionist State had any such cynical intentions, can it be denied that the rabbinate that they established has, in reality, served as such a veneer? Has it not greatly aided the Zionists' brazen conflation of their State with the hallowed, eternal concepts of the Jewish people (Am Yisrael;Klal Yisrael) and the Holy Land of Israel (Ertez Yisrael)? Has the existence of said rabbinate not provided cover-- a hekhsher, if you will-- for the numerous, flagrant violations of the Torah that the Zionist State has, from its inception, regularly engaged-in, perpetrated and sanctioned?

    Replies: @kaganovitch

  49. @Clyde
    @Adam Smith

    You do a decent crypto-Muslim imitation.

    Replies: @Adam Smith

    Thanks. Allāhu Akbar!

  50. @kaganovitch
    @Rob

    Does anyone know why the socialist, atheist ashkenazi who dominated early Israel gave so much power to Orthodox rabbis? It seems bizarre.

    It's sort of complicated. While the secular elite did control all the institutions of the State, there was a significant plurality perhaps even a majority who defined themselves as people of faith. Ben Gurion was reluctant to form a governing coalition with Mapam(communist party), so he was dependent on United Religious Front party, which in turn gave Orthodox much leverage.
    Add to that , separation of Church and State is an American idea, and Israel's early leaders were much more familiar with European and Ottoman systems , where personal status was often governed by religious authority.
    On top of that Ben Gurion thought Ultra-Orthodoxy was a dying movement and he could afford to throw them a bone like draft exemption etc. as it would be irrelevant soon enough(not a great call).

    There was also a nostalgic aspect to their dealings with the Haredim, as many of them had pious Grandfathers they revered even though they themselves were secular. Shimon Peres (who was Ben Gurion's point man on negotiations with the Haredim) writes in his "The Imaginary Voyage: With Theodor Herzl in Israel" that whenever a thorny issue arose in the relationship between religion and state,he would ask himself "whether grandfather would agree with what I’d done.”

    A combination of these factors, plus inability to form governing coalitions w/o religious parties, gets you to present situation.

    Replies: @Rob, @Dissident, @Not Raul

    So, other than pragmatic political considerations, pride played a big role, but guilt wasn’t mentioned. That’s very interesting. Thanks.

  51. @kaganovitch
    I agree with most of what you write here. I was just trying to be succinct w/o getting into the weeds of every little detail. I would take issue, somewhat, with the following though--


    Second, it must never be forgotten that Zionism, from its inception and in all of its forms, was unequivocally condemned by a near-unanimous consensus of the leading rabbinic authorities.

    This is not entirely so. While most of the more Famous rabbanim were anti-Zionist (with the exception of Kovner Rav, Rav Eyges, Rav Reines, Rav Kook & some others), many,perhaps even a majority of the lesser known rabbanim in Lita were members of Mizrachi. It is also true that for many years, chassidim of the Alexander persuasion, one of the largest groups in Poland, were Mizrachi voters as well.

    Replies: @Dissident

    Let me first thank you for this, as well as at least one previous reply you had made to me that I do not think I acknowledged. I always appreciate respectful, thoughtful replies made in good faith, even though I at times can be remiss in acknowledging them.

    I was just trying to be succinct w/o getting into the weeds of every little detail.

    I understand and I actually suspected that was likely the case. In fact I had initially begun my previous reply to you with the following introductory sentence but subsequently removed it before arriving at the final version that I posted.

    While I realize that it may very well not have been your intent to advance or endorse such a characterization (your personal views in this area remain unclear to me), I find it necessary all-the-same to challenge it.

    I realize that I veered considerably off into tangents but felt compelled (as has so often been the case) to present the information that I did, hopefully providing some elucidation and clarity on matters for which I have seen confusion, misconceptions and misinformation abound. (Matters that, for obvious reasons, are of particular and great concern to me.) Returning to the topic (one that is very much part of Mr. Sailer’s post that forms the basis for this comment thread) of the (Zionist) Israeli State rabbinate, I wish to offer some additional remarks.

    First, across the spectrum of serious and learned Orthodox Jews, there is broad, perhaps nearly unanimous consensus that said rabbinate is an entirely political construct; and that merely being a member of said body is no indication of possesing authentic religious authority. That much, at least, is acknowledged even by many within the fully Zionist camp.

    On the question of “why the socialist, atheist ashkenazi who dominated early Israel gave so much power to Orthodox rabbis” that Rob had posed, I don’t know that I would dispute any of the answers that you offered in your reply to him. I wonder, though, whether you have ever considered the possibility of a more cynical motivation: In order to create a veneer of religious authenticity and sanction for their modern, profane, sacrilegious State (Medinat Yisrael).

    Whether or not the founders of the Zionist State had any such cynical intentions, can it be denied that the rabbinate that they established has, in reality, served as such a veneer? Has it not greatly aided the Zionists’ brazen conflation of their State with the hallowed, eternal concepts of the Jewish people (Am Yisrael;Klal Yisrael) and the Holy Land of Israel (Ertez Yisrael)? Has the existence of said rabbinate not provided cover– a hekhsher, if you will– for the numerous, flagrant violations of the Torah that the Zionist State has, from its inception, regularly engaged-in, perpetrated and sanctioned?

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    @Dissident

    Apologies for not responding sooner, I didn't notice your response as the comments were no longer active.

    First, across the spectrum of serious and learned Orthodox Jews, there is broad, perhaps nearly unanimous consensus that said rabbinate is an entirely political construct; and that merely being a member of said body is no indication of possesing authentic religious authority. That much, at least, is acknowledged even by many within the fully Zionist camp.

    This is a problem with almost all State sponsored religious authority, whether Christian , Muslim or Jewish. It turns out that taking the King's shilling comes with strings attached. These systems tend to devolve into a rubber stamp for government policy. To be fair, the Israeli government did a better job of it, than the risible "rav m'ta'am" system in Czarist Russia.(but then they could hardly do worse) In the main , the rabbanim chosen were qualified. Many were even world class poskim.

    One could argue, (with some truth) that the long march of the Haredim through the rabbanut , has served to degrade the institution rather than elevate it, Rav Y. Metzger being a case in point.I think Haredi control of an institution they don't believe in , breeds cynicism and leads to worse outcomes. All that aside, I think your point is well taken. While individual rabbanim who are employed by the Rabbanut may wield great religious authority, the institution qua institution does not. Its decisions are political more than religious.


    As regards your second point

    On the question of “why the socialist, atheist ashkenazi who dominated early Israel gave so much power to Orthodox rabbis” that Rob had posed, I don’t know that I would dispute any of the answers that you offered in your reply to him. I wonder, though, whether you have ever considered the possibility of a more cynical motivation: In order to create a veneer of religious authenticity and sanction for their modern, profane, sacrilegious State (Medinat Yisrael).

    I think this thesis is entirely misconceived. I think it suffers from the besetting problem of Haredi political and historical analysis, i.e. it assumes that the opposition shares its premises. Conceiving
    Socialist, Atheist, Ashkenazis as "yodi'im es Ribbonam u'mis'kav'nin l'mrod boh" is to misunderstand them entirely. While this was true for most of recorded history, since the advent of Modernity we live in (k'vayokhol)a 'Godless world'. I believe this is the true meaning of what the kabbalists (and others) refer to as "hester panim"(God, so to speak, hiding his face). The reason Haredi political activity in Israel is so inept, is due to their inability to confront this reality. Very, very few of our leaders have taken the measure of modernity. (Rav Kook, for all his 'flight of fancy' Romanticism, is a notable exception.)

    To be sure , many of the actions of the Rabbanut may have objectively served the purpose you describe, irrespective of the intent of the State or the rabbanim involved. but that tells us little about motivation. In any case , i think much of our discussion is Haredi 'inside baseball' that is of little to no interest to Steve or his readers and courtesy demands that if we wish to continue, we do so privately. Should you wish to do so, you can email me at my username (lk................)at g mail.

  52. OT:

  53. @Dissident
    @kaganovitch

    Let me first thank you for this, as well as at least one previous reply you had made to me that I do not think I acknowledged. I always appreciate respectful, thoughtful replies made in good faith, even though I at times can be remiss in acknowledging them.


    I was just trying to be succinct w/o getting into the weeds of every little detail.
     
    I understand and I actually suspected that was likely the case. In fact I had initially begun my previous reply to you with the following introductory sentence but subsequently removed it before arriving at the final version that I posted.

    While I realize that it may very well not have been your intent to advance or endorse such a characterization (your personal views in this area remain unclear to me), I find it necessary all-the-same to challenge it.

    I realize that I veered considerably off into tangents but felt compelled (as has so often been the case) to present the information that I did, hopefully providing some elucidation and clarity on matters for which I have seen confusion, misconceptions and misinformation abound. (Matters that, for obvious reasons, are of particular and great concern to me.) Returning to the topic (one that is very much part of Mr. Sailer's post that forms the basis for this comment thread) of the (Zionist) Israeli State rabbinate, I wish to offer some additional remarks.

    First, across the spectrum of serious and learned Orthodox Jews, there is broad, perhaps nearly unanimous consensus that said rabbinate is an entirely political construct; and that merely being a member of said body is no indication of possesing authentic religious authority. That much, at least, is acknowledged even by many within the fully Zionist camp.

    On the question of "why the socialist, atheist ashkenazi who dominated early Israel gave so much power to Orthodox rabbis" that Rob had posed, I don't know that I would dispute any of the answers that you offered in your reply to him. I wonder, though, whether you have ever considered the possibility of a more cynical motivation: In order to create a veneer of religious authenticity and sanction for their modern, profane, sacrilegious State (Medinat Yisrael).

    Whether or not the founders of the Zionist State had any such cynical intentions, can it be denied that the rabbinate that they established has, in reality, served as such a veneer? Has it not greatly aided the Zionists' brazen conflation of their State with the hallowed, eternal concepts of the Jewish people (Am Yisrael;Klal Yisrael) and the Holy Land of Israel (Ertez Yisrael)? Has the existence of said rabbinate not provided cover-- a hekhsher, if you will-- for the numerous, flagrant violations of the Torah that the Zionist State has, from its inception, regularly engaged-in, perpetrated and sanctioned?

    Replies: @kaganovitch

    Apologies for not responding sooner, I didn’t notice your response as the comments were no longer active.

    First, across the spectrum of serious and learned Orthodox Jews, there is broad, perhaps nearly unanimous consensus that said rabbinate is an entirely political construct; and that merely being a member of said body is no indication of possesing authentic religious authority. That much, at least, is acknowledged even by many within the fully Zionist camp.

    This is a problem with almost all State sponsored religious authority, whether Christian , Muslim or Jewish. It turns out that taking the King’s shilling comes with strings attached. These systems tend to devolve into a rubber stamp for government policy. To be fair, the Israeli government did a better job of it, than the risible “rav m’ta’am” system in Czarist Russia.(but then they could hardly do worse) In the main , the rabbanim chosen were qualified. Many were even world class poskim.

    One could argue, (with some truth) that the long march of the Haredim through the rabbanut , has served to degrade the institution rather than elevate it, Rav Y. Metzger being a case in point.I think Haredi control of an institution they don’t believe in , breeds cynicism and leads to worse outcomes. All that aside, I think your point is well taken. While individual rabbanim who are employed by the Rabbanut may wield great religious authority, the institution qua institution does not. Its decisions are political more than religious.

    As regards your second point

    On the question of “why the socialist, atheist ashkenazi who dominated early Israel gave so much power to Orthodox rabbis” that Rob had posed, I don’t know that I would dispute any of the answers that you offered in your reply to him. I wonder, though, whether you have ever considered the possibility of a more cynical motivation: In order to create a veneer of religious authenticity and sanction for their modern, profane, sacrilegious State (Medinat Yisrael).

    I think this thesis is entirely misconceived. I think it suffers from the besetting problem of Haredi political and historical analysis, i.e. it assumes that the opposition shares its premises. Conceiving
    Socialist, Atheist, Ashkenazis as “yodi’im es Ribbonam u’mis’kav’nin l’mrod boh” is to misunderstand them entirely. While this was true for most of recorded history, since the advent of Modernity we live in (k’vayokhol)a ‘Godless world’. I believe this is the true meaning of what the kabbalists (and others) refer to as “hester panim”(God, so to speak, hiding his face). The reason Haredi political activity in Israel is so inept, is due to their inability to confront this reality. Very, very few of our leaders have taken the measure of modernity. (Rav Kook, for all his ‘flight of fancy’ Romanticism, is a notable exception.)

    To be sure , many of the actions of the Rabbanut may have objectively served the purpose you describe, irrespective of the intent of the State or the rabbanim involved. but that tells us little about motivation. In any case , i think much of our discussion is Haredi ‘inside baseball’ that is of little to no interest to Steve or his readers and courtesy demands that if we wish to continue, we do so privately. Should you wish to do so, you can email me at my username (lk…………….)at g mail.

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