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Is Pre-K School Really a Panacea?
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Pre-kindergarten schooling has been around for a long time: for example, I went to a few hours a day of nursery school at age 3-4 in the early 1960s. On the other hand, there wasn’t much academic about my nursery school at all, nor was there much in kindergarten either, other than maybe singing the alphabet song. Reading instruction was reserved for 1st grade.

Democrats pin a lot of hopes on pre-K as part of their long term push to spend more money on childcare up to but not earlier than 8 months and 29 days before birth.

From Developmental Psychology:

Dev Psychol
2022 Jan 10.

Effects of a statewide pre-kindergarten program on children’s achievement and behavior through sixth grade

Kelley Durkin 1, Mark W Lipsey 2, Dale C Farran 1, Sarah E Wiesen 3

Abstract
As state-funded pre-kindergarten (pre-K) programs expand, it is critical to investigate their short- and long-term effects. This article presents the results through sixth grade of a longitudinal randomized control study of the effects of a scaled-up, state-supported pre-K program. The analytic sample includes 2,990 children from low-income families who applied to oversubscribed pre-K program sites across the state and were randomly assigned to offers of admission or a wait list control. Data through sixth grade from state education records showed that the children randomly assigned to attend pre-K had lower state achievement test scores in third through sixth grades than control children, with the strongest negative effects in sixth grade. A negative effect was also found for disciplinary infractions, attendance, and receipt of special education services, with null effects on retention. The implications of these findings for pre-K policies and practices are discussed.

For some reason, this study with six times the sample size and eight times the duration of that EEG study the New York Times splashed on its front page yesterday hasn’t yet made the front page.

 
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  1. I think it’s a good idea to teach toddler aged children their abc’s and 123’s as early as they can learn them, but it’s a task for parents, not minimum wage 20 something women (or worse, immigrants) punching a clock in between hookups at the local sport bars.

    • Agree: Achmed E. Newman
    • LOL: Cool Daddy Jimbo
    • Replies: @JimDandy
    @Mike Tre

    Don't worry, the teachers unions are going to make sure that toddlers will be "taught" by the same overpaid 20 something women punching a clock in between hookups at the local sports bar who are currently indoctrinating America's grade-, middle-, and high-schoolers.

    Replies: @Mike Tre

    , @mmack
    @Mike Tre

    Agreed. My mother, who did not have a college degree, and my father, who had a college degree but no “Education” classes taught us four children to read, write, know colors and shapes, and do simple math by the time we reached Kindergarten.

    Now, we were reading Little Golden Books or Dr. Seuss, but we were reading. 👍🏻

    Mom and dad also taught us to tell time with an old fashioned clock ⏰ with hands by end of Kindergarten.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

    , @Coemgen
    @Mike Tre

    Is there any significant measurable long term benefit of learning to read at an early age?

    Is there any real benefit, for most people, to have an education beyond the "Three Rs" along with some civics and practical training? There's no need to start that type of education before children have matured to the point where they no longer live in a fantasy world (perhaps age 8 or 9).

    We need solid science that pre-K, or really any education beyond the "Three Rs," civics, and "voc," is more than just jobs for Democrats.

    , @Art Deco
    @Mike Tre

    Pre-K teachers are paid a mean of $36,000 a year plus benefits. Kindergarten teachers are paid a mean of $61,000 plus benefits. In re pre-K teachers, someone at the 10th percentile is paid about $22,000 a year.

    The question at hand would be is pre-kindergarten inherently useless or do the teachers have systematically crappy training. Either is plausible.

    Replies: @stillCARealist, @possumman

    , @Rosie
    @Mike Tre


    I think it’s a good idea to teach toddler aged children their abc’s and 123’s as early as they can learn them, but it’s a task for parents, not minimum wage 20 something women (or worse, immigrants) punching a clock in between hookups at the local sport bars.
     
    Good grief, what a monomaniacal nutcase! Imagine trying to have a rational debate about the benefits of preschool and having some deranged assclown turn it into a question of whether or not it allows young women to earn a living and, ipso factor, have more sex with strangers. There is something seriously wrong with you. Get help!

    Anyway, you're wrong on all counts. There is no documented benefit to preschool academics whatsoever. The powers that be are grasping at straws because they can't face the fact that academic achievement is declining because of demographics.
  2. Of course pre-K is a panacea, Steve. Look how many jobs it creates for educators.

    Of were you under the impression that teacher’s unions and politicians are concerned about students?

    • Thanks: Achmed E. Newman
    • Replies: @Mike Tre
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    In our school district, within the elementary grades, children are not allowed to walk to school. This of course creates the need for more school buses and drivers, and more stops. So much for reducing carbon emissions when it comes to acquiring more tax dollars, I mean, keeping the children safe!

    , @Buffalo Joe
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    NJ, public education is a huge job mill. Teachers' aides, bus aides and cafeteria aides never existed years ago. Not always the greatest pay but good hours and benefits.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @Alden

    , @Cato
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    You are correct: pre-K is about creating more employment for otherwise not easily employed persons; it's not about students. The survival of Head Start is perhaps the best evidence: despite the fact that only about 5 percent of the studies of its effectiveness are positive, the program has never been in danger of being terminated.

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob

  3. anonymous[175] • Disclaimer says:

    Democrats pin a lot of hopes on pre-K as part of their long term push to spend more money on childcare up to but not earlier than 8 months and 29 days before birth.

    Huh? What policies ought Democrats adopt at/before the point of conception?

    Watch yourself Steve: this is all sounding a lot like that dreaded Nazi pseudoscience of “eugenics” which the Jewish establishment that controls our culture has conditioned us to believe is a very terrible, horrible, no good, very bad thing. Just as they’ve conditioned us to believe the man on man butt sex is beautiful and sacred and the goodest thing in the world, and that white Christian countries having borders and immigration policies which preserve their ethnic composition (like Israel has) is that most evil-ist Nazi like thing in the world (but not when Israel does it because “whada whada, Holocaust, Hamas, you’re and anti-Semite, whada whada, Oy vey! Shut it Down!”)

    • Thanks: Angharad
  4. Have they tried bussing the little guys around?

  5. It is a boondoggle for the education cartel. I am surprised they don’t just admit it and pitch universal pre K as free daycare to parents.

  6. Hint: it was never about helping the children.

    • Agree: Brutusale, Reaper
    • Replies: @Anon7
    @Almost Missouri

    Hint#2:

    It's free daycare.

    Replies: @Jus' Sayin'..., @Mike Tre

  7. Pre-k is a way to discipline children from age 3 on not to question authority or the narrative..It is worthless as education, because you can’t teach children anything until they are developmentally ready for it, and the attempt can be harmful…I have taught hundreds of children, and you can’t force the process…

    • Replies: @Reaper
    @pyrrhus

    "Pre-k is a way to discipline children from age 3"

    Disagree.
    Exactly the opposite: they learn can do as they wish as all adults around them lack both competence in education (especially discipline) and intent to do any such thing.
    From the kid`s side: hysterical behavior is totally effective, complains even more so, wrongdoings have no consequence there are no punisment but there are rights. Yes they learn it very well.

    Education is non-existent, any sort of knowledge unknown. Expectations are forbidden.

    So very well if you want that your kid never know any bundaries, limits, prohibitions, expectations and to get an early experience about "education" or "school" is not about knowledge but to spend time with interactive playful activities then pre-school is your best choice.

    That is the "normal" average pre-school both in Western Europe and in all Anglo-Saxon systems.

    There are very few talent pre-schools where kids get real knowledge and proper training, like learn to read at 3, write in 4-5 and learn basic science with gamification but that sort of institutes are very rare, expensive (with reason) and never heard even one state-funded.


    So pre-school CAN be very beneficial but ONLY in a totally different system.
    Right now pre-school together with the whole public education system is a cancer in any western society because of the ways: how it is operated/ what it does/ who allowed to "teach" their with who`s supervision.

  8. Probably because all the pre-k in the world can’t save the demographic slop they’re working with these days.

  9. @Mike Tre
    I think it's a good idea to teach toddler aged children their abc's and 123's as early as they can learn them, but it's a task for parents, not minimum wage 20 something women (or worse, immigrants) punching a clock in between hookups at the local sport bars.

    Replies: @JimDandy, @mmack, @Coemgen, @Art Deco, @Rosie

    Don’t worry, the teachers unions are going to make sure that toddlers will be “taught” by the same overpaid 20 something women punching a clock in between hookups at the local sports bar who are currently indoctrinating America’s grade-, middle-, and high-schoolers.

    • Replies: @Mike Tre
    @JimDandy

    What, me worry???

  10. The fad preceded the phrase but wasn’t it the sort of parent who would now “believe the science” who bought Baby Mozart?

    • Agree: Redneck farmer
    • Replies: @stillCARealist
    @J.Ross

    My kid watched Baby Mozart, and the related videos, for hundreds of hours back in the early aughts. Now he's an accomplished pianist and a graduate student in electrical engineering.

    You can't deny the connection; stop being a doubter, Ross.

    Replies: @Alden

  11. One of the overlooked findings of the “Satanic panic” is that there is a simply hilarious amount of fraud, deceit, and bad practice in daycare. The fact is that parents don’t want to be around their kids 24 hours a day (some with reason). There will always be a market for babysitters but in our culture everything has to be educational.

    • Replies: @S. Anonyia
    @J.Ross

    People having closer ties to extended family and being more rooted in the communities they grew up in is probably the best solution to the childcare problem.

    , @Redneck farmer
    @J.Ross

    One of the most destructive hypocrisies in current American culture is the "You Must Be Involved With Your Children All The Time". One of the exceptions is schooling, so Pre-K gets a pass.

  12. @Almost Missouri
    Hint: it was never about helping the children.

    Replies: @Anon7

    Hint#2:

    It’s free daycare.

    • Replies: @Jus' Sayin'...
    @Anon7


    Hint#2: It’s free daycare.
     
    Hint #3: The kind of people who need the free day care provided by government-funded pre-K education are much more likely to have low or no honestly earned income and to be single-parents of multiple bastards, with disorganized lives, and few personal resources, such as average or above average intelligence, high internal discount rates, long internal time horizons, and high impulse control.

    There is a genetic component to these personal resources. Parents without them are likely to produce children without them. Such children, as they grow older, are likely to exhibit exactly the negative characteristics this study found as pre-K children went through elementary education, e.g. lower state achievement test scores, disciplinary infractions, poor attendance records, receipt of special education services, with null effects on retention.

    I suspect that controls for the children's race would capture some of this. I also suspect that such controls were not included in the study because that would require dangerous levels of noticing and noticing can be harmful to professional careers.

    Replies: @Rob, @AnotherDad, @Rosie

    , @Mike Tre
    @Anon7

    When the lockdowns started a couple years ago, the schools would still hand out free breakfast and lunches to students if they showed up in the parking lots.

    The high schools have daycare centers in the building for the children of students.

    Have of public education is just welfare for minorities.

    Replies: @Anon7

  13. @JimDandy
    @Mike Tre

    Don't worry, the teachers unions are going to make sure that toddlers will be "taught" by the same overpaid 20 something women punching a clock in between hookups at the local sports bar who are currently indoctrinating America's grade-, middle-, and high-schoolers.

    Replies: @Mike Tre

    What, me worry???

  14. @J.Ross
    One of the overlooked findings of the "Satanic panic" is that there is a simply hilarious amount of fraud, deceit, and bad practice in daycare. The fact is that parents don't want to be around their kids 24 hours a day (some with reason). There will always be a market for babysitters but in our culture everything has to be educational.

    Replies: @S. Anonyia, @Redneck farmer

    People having closer ties to extended family and being more rooted in the communities they grew up in is probably the best solution to the childcare problem.

    • Agree: mmack, Thea
  15. Some people don’t seem to know that they’re not supposed to widen the GAP.

    One daughter-in-law’s response to the Chinese bio-weapon virus was to start homeschooling their three children.

    The kindergarten aged grandkid gets the Saxon first grade math book.

    BUT some of our friends’ granddaughter started reading at two.

    In the eternal competition that is life…

    We will never beat that.

  16. @J.Ross
    One of the overlooked findings of the "Satanic panic" is that there is a simply hilarious amount of fraud, deceit, and bad practice in daycare. The fact is that parents don't want to be around their kids 24 hours a day (some with reason). There will always be a market for babysitters but in our culture everything has to be educational.

    Replies: @S. Anonyia, @Redneck farmer

    One of the most destructive hypocrisies in current American culture is the “You Must Be Involved With Your Children All The Time”. One of the exceptions is schooling, so Pre-K gets a pass.

  17. There’s no evidence any level of schooling makes you more educated.

    There’s this great study on unschooling which shows that unschoolers end up at a 4th grade level compared to age-matched 5th grade peers.
    In other words if you skip every day of school for your entire life, you still end up with days – 365 worth of education. All that time and money spent, for no gain whatsoever.
    Everyone already knows this: it’s openly talked about when the kids forget everything over the summer. However, they clearly don’t like to think about it, so we get these interminable conversations about fantasy worlds where it isn’t true.

    Fun fact: this mirrors the result for every IQ-enhancing intervention. You get a minor bump which subsides to nothing within a year of releasing the pressure. You can only get sustained deviation with sustained extrinsic effort. There’s no cumulative effect whatsoever, so there’s no point applying the pressure much before you wish to apply the results of the pressure. (In other words you don’t need to learn math until just before it’s time to use the math.)

    There’s is great evidence of the opposite.

    It was consciously designed to cripple the children subjected to it.

    “Education should aim at destroying free will so that after pupils are thus schooled they will be incapable throughout the rest of their lives of thinking or acting otherwise than as their school masters would have wished.”
    Johann Gottlieb Fichte

    The quotes are consistent across all architects of this system, albeit they get more veiled over time. Most likely because expected exposure increased. Talk openly with your buddies, less openly where your planned victims are likely to overhear.

    It is not an exaggeration to call schools concentration camps for children, meaning teachers are the Nazi guards.

    The point of pre-K is to cripple children even more, because the degeneracy clearly hasn’t degenerated far enough yet. They say: faster plz.

    • Agree: Ed Case, Adept
    • Thanks: Old Prude
    • Replies: @Nicholas Stix
    @Alrenous

    "There’s this great study on unschooling..."

    What "great study"? Why the big tease? Where's the title and the link?

    Replies: @Alrenous

  18. Can’t wait for spring in Baltimore, and the Pre-K’ness.

    • LOL: Rob
  19. Back in the day, Sesame Street, was pretty good about Pre K stuff. It is more or less available, although new stuff is too woke.

    Brece Springsteen….Born to Add

    • Replies: @Jus' Sayin'...
    @anon

    Because Sesame Street is so entertaining, and in ways that particularly appeal to the upper middle classes, it has mostly gotten away without many studies on its impact. At least one such study found that Sesame Street had the kind of negative intellectual effect that one might expect from a television program with its format.

    Children who were regular watchers of Sesame Street demonstrated a lower ability to stay focused and engaged with intellectual material over an extended period. The negative implications are obvious.

    BTW, I once loved spending Saturday mornings with my grad school girlfriend, watching Sesame Street. I'm just not sure that it's a good idea to expose children to the show over an extended period.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Thea

  20. The SWPL policy worship of pre-K is a lot like their worship of the COVID vacces:

    -top down authoritarian thinking
    -really doesn’t work
    -groupthink
    -anyone who points out the errors in their conceptions is labelled an evil person.

  21. Pre-k would grow the scope of government, it would move more jobs, money, and control to the government, it would grow and strengthen teacher unions and educational bureaucracies. All of that is perfect for the Democratic Party,

    Some people with a few kids and low income or lots of kids would benefit, with pre-k service they don’t have to pay for. Most people would have to pay more. Public K-12 costs roughly 3x as much as reasonably priced private pre-k where I live. Everyone would lose choice in what type of pre-k service they’d get.

    Government pre-k is bad policy, I would vote and advocate against it, but it wouldn’t be horrible.

    I sent my kids to public elementary school, and the Kindergarten was excellent. There was very little academics, but my kids had fun, the teacher was amazing. I’d still like to move all school to private as much as possible. I am not holding my breath for that.

    As a parent, I want my kids to be happy, and have an awesome childhood, with fun events, fun parties, great friends, and minimum bad childhood events. I do push math and reading, but their happiness is much more important.

  22. “A negative effect was also found for disciplinary infractions, attendance, and receipt of special education services, with null effects on retention.”

    “Retention”? What does that mean in this context? Does “retention” mean “staying in school”? So ya mean, some pre-seventh-grade pupils drop out of school? What happens to these drop-outs?

    • Replies: @Hi There
    @Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)

    Generally, "retention" refers to learning retention. Education researchers test student learning and then later retest and see which knowledge and skills students keep over time and which students forget.

    Replies: @Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)

  23. In the 1950s, I got to skip the one year of kindergarten because my brother told my mom it had been a boring waste of time. Lucky me–riding my bike and roaming the neighborhood while other kids got tortured. Imagine three years of preschool–yikes! That oughta squelch any little brat’s love of learning.

  24. @Anon7
    @Almost Missouri

    Hint#2:

    It's free daycare.

    Replies: @Jus' Sayin'..., @Mike Tre

    Hint#2: It’s free daycare.

    Hint #3: The kind of people who need the free day care provided by government-funded pre-K education are much more likely to have low or no honestly earned income and to be single-parents of multiple bastards, with disorganized lives, and few personal resources, such as average or above average intelligence, high internal discount rates, long internal time horizons, and high impulse control.

    There is a genetic component to these personal resources. Parents without them are likely to produce children without them. Such children, as they grow older, are likely to exhibit exactly the negative characteristics this study found as pre-K children went through elementary education, e.g. lower state achievement test scores, disciplinary infractions, poor attendance records, receipt of special education services, with null effects on retention.

    I suspect that controls for the children’s race would capture some of this. I also suspect that such controls were not included in the study because that would require dangerous levels of noticing and noticing can be harmful to professional careers.

    • Replies: @Rob
    @Jus' Sayin'...


    few personal resources, such as average or above average intelligence, high internal discount rates, long internal time horizons, and high impulse control.
     
    Want a quibble?

    Well, You’ve got one!

    A high discount rate means s high implicit interest rate required for future stuff. If i think $11,000 dollars next year is equivalent to $10k now, i have a lower discount rate than if the future anount has to be $12,500 to make me indifferent to now vs later (10% and 25% annual diacount rates, respectively)

    Other than that, you ste exactly right.

    Replies: @Jus' Sayin'...

    , @AnotherDad
    @Jus' Sayin'...


    I suspect that controls for the children’s race would capture some of this. I also suspect that such controls were not included in the study because that would require dangerous levels of noticing and noticing can be harmful to professional careers.
     
    The controls here look pretty good. They all applied and what group the kids were in was by lottery.

    Replies: @Spangel226, @Jus' Sayin'...

    , @Rosie
    @Jus' Sayin'...


    Hint #3: The kind of people who need the free day care provided by government-funded pre-K education are much more likely to have low or no honestly earned income and to be single-parents of multiple bastards, with disorganized lives, and few personal resources, such as average or above average intelligence, high internal discount rates, long internal time horizons, and high impulse control.
     
    Where the hell have you been these last fifty years? As if this were still the fifties where any young man with a high school diploma could get a job with a family wage.

    Seriously, The Unz commentariat spews hatred at women who wait until they are in their financially more-stable thirties to have children. Then they spew some more hatred at women who have children in their financially less-stable twenties and therefore need more social support. The general public is mostly right about the far right: it's mostly just seething, irrational, hatred that betrays an obsession with controlling other people.
  25. @Mike Tre
    I think it's a good idea to teach toddler aged children their abc's and 123's as early as they can learn them, but it's a task for parents, not minimum wage 20 something women (or worse, immigrants) punching a clock in between hookups at the local sport bars.

    Replies: @JimDandy, @mmack, @Coemgen, @Art Deco, @Rosie

    Agreed. My mother, who did not have a college degree, and my father, who had a college degree but no “Education” classes taught us four children to read, write, know colors and shapes, and do simple math by the time we reached Kindergarten.

    Now, we were reading Little Golden Books or Dr. Seuss, but we were reading. 👍🏻

    Mom and dad also taught us to tell time with an old fashioned clock ⏰ with hands by end of Kindergarten.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @mmack

    mmack, remember the thrill of tying your own shoes. Major accomplishment. Now it is velcro. And, as to what you said, amazing how many little kids get to school and don't know, colors, up, down, front, back or minimal manners... please and thank you and are potty trained. Stay safe

  26. @anon
    Back in the day, Sesame Street, was pretty good about Pre K stuff. It is more or less available, although new stuff is too woke.

    Brece Springsteen....Born to Add

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSpbvmmWvjw

    Replies: @Jus' Sayin'...

    Because Sesame Street is so entertaining, and in ways that particularly appeal to the upper middle classes, it has mostly gotten away without many studies on its impact. At least one such study found that Sesame Street had the kind of negative intellectual effect that one might expect from a television program with its format.

    Children who were regular watchers of Sesame Street demonstrated a lower ability to stay focused and engaged with intellectual material over an extended period. The negative implications are obvious.

    BTW, I once loved spending Saturday mornings with my grad school girlfriend, watching Sesame Street. I’m just not sure that it’s a good idea to expose children to the show over an extended period.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Jus' Sayin'...

    My mother was concerned that I suddenly started watching Sesame Street when it debuted when I was about ten. Wasn't it for little kids?

    "Mom, I'm watching for aesthetic reasons. Sesame Street is a major stylistic breakthrough."

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @J.Ross, @Reg Cæsar, @Reg Cæsar

    , @Thea
    @Jus' Sayin'...

    Studies have shown that all educational videos and shows fail at improving educational outcomes. Sitting in front of a TV just teaches kids to sit in front of the TV. Now educational programs are better than non-educational possibly but not better than any other activity.

  27. @Jus' Sayin'...
    @anon

    Because Sesame Street is so entertaining, and in ways that particularly appeal to the upper middle classes, it has mostly gotten away without many studies on its impact. At least one such study found that Sesame Street had the kind of negative intellectual effect that one might expect from a television program with its format.

    Children who were regular watchers of Sesame Street demonstrated a lower ability to stay focused and engaged with intellectual material over an extended period. The negative implications are obvious.

    BTW, I once loved spending Saturday mornings with my grad school girlfriend, watching Sesame Street. I'm just not sure that it's a good idea to expose children to the show over an extended period.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Thea

    My mother was concerned that I suddenly started watching Sesame Street when it debuted when I was about ten. Wasn’t it for little kids?

    “Mom, I’m watching for aesthetic reasons. Sesame Street is a major stylistic breakthrough.”

    • LOL: Inquiring Mind
    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist
    @Steve Sailer

    Or was it just that you were starting to find Maria's cute Latinx smile oddly compelling?

    Replies: @Art Deco

    , @J.Ross
    @Steve Sailer

    >not plugging in to The Electric Company

    Some people don't want to be given the power.

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Steve Sailer


    My mother was concerned that I suddenly started watching Sesame Street when it debuted when I was about ten. Wasn’t it for little kids?
     
    So you were a proto-brony? Or is it paleobrony?

    My hypothesis is that you will hate for life any kid's show that comes out right as you reach puberty. Sesame Street (except the Muppets) and Scooby-Doo still annoy. When I returned to college after the service, my six-year-younger classmates felt the same about The Smurfs.


    I was into Zoom! But all that sticks in memory is Bernadette's intro:


    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_dX0d4h6S5M


    The show's cast were supposed to demonstrate their individual hobbies. But, being a young Oriental tiger-grind, she didn't have any. Dad taught her this spasm from his Chinese childhood. And it's what we remember.

    That, and Ubbu Dubbi.

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Steve Sailer


    “Mom, I’m watching for aesthetic reasons. Sesame Street is a major stylistic breakthrough.”
     
    Well, as long as you're doing posts about Belgians like Luc[wh]y Sante, note that the harmonica that underlay the quieter moments of that often noisy show was the work of Toots Thielemans.

    RIP Sesame Street Musician Toots Thielemans

    Toots 100 Birthday Celebration


    https://youtu.be/3K_SD2GWEHE
  28. @Steve Sailer
    @Jus' Sayin'...

    My mother was concerned that I suddenly started watching Sesame Street when it debuted when I was about ten. Wasn't it for little kids?

    "Mom, I'm watching for aesthetic reasons. Sesame Street is a major stylistic breakthrough."

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @J.Ross, @Reg Cæsar, @Reg Cæsar

    Or was it just that you were starting to find Maria’s cute Latinx smile oddly compelling?

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    The only dame on the program in that era was 'Susan', a black woman with passable looks. Her smile wasn't oddly compelling.

    Replies: @The Germ Theory of Disease

  29. @Steve Sailer
    @Jus' Sayin'...

    My mother was concerned that I suddenly started watching Sesame Street when it debuted when I was about ten. Wasn't it for little kids?

    "Mom, I'm watching for aesthetic reasons. Sesame Street is a major stylistic breakthrough."

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @J.Ross, @Reg Cæsar, @Reg Cæsar

    >not plugging in to The Electric Company

    Some people don’t want to be given the power.

  30. The Democratic Party is the electoral vehicle for people on the education and social services payroll, so they’re invariably for spending more money on those two bureaucracies, and assiduously avoiding doing anything that would injure the amour propre of people who work in those trade.

    Have a gander at course lists offered by teachers’ colleges, social work programs, and library administration programs. These are paper hoop credentialing programs which fritter away everyone’s time when they’re not doing things which are socially injurious (which you see in spades looking at the course content of many ‘education’ degrees). Honest practitioners in those trades could probably come up with satisfactory vocational training programs that would have as their point of departure the menu of things those practitioners do all day. In order to implement satisfactory vocational training programs, you have to close the existing pseudotraining programs and put their grifter faculty out on the curb.

  31. I’m not clear why anyone expects stunning, or perhaps any, academic results from such activities. When our daughter was young she was an only child. We leapt at the opportunity for her to meet other children and learn to be happy in their company.

    She started her Australian kindergarten at age two-and-a-half. It was brilliant, being staffed by kind, well trained, young women whose métier was obviously looking after infants. The fees were bearable, being based on my not very grand income. After a year of that we moved to Britain where she attended a Town Council “nursery school”. It wasn’t as good but it was worthwhile, it was free, and she made a friend-for-life there. After that she had a standard English schooling for several years.

    At which point in all this she learned to read I have no idea. Nor do I think it matters much. She looked forward to going to school every day which is probably the outcome you’d hope for.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @dearieme

    At which point in all this she learned to read I have no idea. Nor do I think it matters much. She looked forward to going to school every day which is probably the outcome you’d hope for.

    One is on occasion reminded that Britain may be the occidental world's least child-centered society, in addition to being the most alcohol-steeped. But the breakfasts are da bomb (except for the toast).

  32. @Mike Tre
    I think it's a good idea to teach toddler aged children their abc's and 123's as early as they can learn them, but it's a task for parents, not minimum wage 20 something women (or worse, immigrants) punching a clock in between hookups at the local sport bars.

    Replies: @JimDandy, @mmack, @Coemgen, @Art Deco, @Rosie

    Is there any significant measurable long term benefit of learning to read at an early age?

    Is there any real benefit, for most people, to have an education beyond the “Three Rs” along with some civics and practical training? There’s no need to start that type of education before children have matured to the point where they no longer live in a fantasy world (perhaps age 8 or 9).

    We need solid science that pre-K, or really any education beyond the “Three Rs,” civics, and “voc,” is more than just jobs for Democrats.

  33. @The Last Real Calvinist
    @Steve Sailer

    Or was it just that you were starting to find Maria's cute Latinx smile oddly compelling?

    Replies: @Art Deco

    The only dame on the program in that era was ‘Susan’, a black woman with passable looks. Her smile wasn’t oddly compelling.

    • Replies: @The Germ Theory of Disease
    @Art Deco

    "The only dame on the program in that era was ‘Susan’"

    There were people on Sesame Street? You mean to say you were paying attention to the people?

    I'll bet you don't even know when Wanda the Witch washes her wig.

  34. @Mike Tre
    I think it's a good idea to teach toddler aged children their abc's and 123's as early as they can learn them, but it's a task for parents, not minimum wage 20 something women (or worse, immigrants) punching a clock in between hookups at the local sport bars.

    Replies: @JimDandy, @mmack, @Coemgen, @Art Deco, @Rosie

    Pre-K teachers are paid a mean of \$36,000 a year plus benefits. Kindergarten teachers are paid a mean of \$61,000 plus benefits. In re pre-K teachers, someone at the 10th percentile is paid about \$22,000 a year.

    The question at hand would be is pre-kindergarten inherently useless or do the teachers have systematically crappy training. Either is plausible.

    • Replies: @stillCARealist
    @Art Deco

    Why would a pre-K teacher need training? It's just baby-sitting. Most 14 year old girls can do it just fine.

    I think what public Kindergarten teachers really want is more socializing for the 4 year olds that they'll be receiving into their classes shortly. They want the kids ready for some classroom time. Specifically, they want the wild ones labeled early so they know who to medicate or get an aide for.

    If anything's systemic, it's public education. Steve's earlier post was about systemic racism, well this is systemic educationism. The system has an internal logic into which everyone must be crammed. The earlier the kids can be molded for a life of the system, the better for us all.

    I think it's all bunk. Some kids will never learn in a classroom; they'll only disrupt or tune out. Drugs may give the impression of helping, but mostly the kid just isn't suited for the constrictions of systemic education.

    , @possumman
    @Art Deco

    Babysitting should pay about 50 cents an hour so there is that

  35. @Jus' Sayin'...
    @Anon7


    Hint#2: It’s free daycare.
     
    Hint #3: The kind of people who need the free day care provided by government-funded pre-K education are much more likely to have low or no honestly earned income and to be single-parents of multiple bastards, with disorganized lives, and few personal resources, such as average or above average intelligence, high internal discount rates, long internal time horizons, and high impulse control.

    There is a genetic component to these personal resources. Parents without them are likely to produce children without them. Such children, as they grow older, are likely to exhibit exactly the negative characteristics this study found as pre-K children went through elementary education, e.g. lower state achievement test scores, disciplinary infractions, poor attendance records, receipt of special education services, with null effects on retention.

    I suspect that controls for the children's race would capture some of this. I also suspect that such controls were not included in the study because that would require dangerous levels of noticing and noticing can be harmful to professional careers.

    Replies: @Rob, @AnotherDad, @Rosie

    few personal resources, such as average or above average intelligence, high internal discount rates, long internal time horizons, and high impulse control.

    Want a quibble?

    Well, You’ve got one!

    A high discount rate means s high implicit interest rate required for future stuff. If i think \$11,000 dollars next year is equivalent to \$10k now, i have a lower discount rate than if the future anount has to be \$12,500 to make me indifferent to now vs later (10% and 25% annual diacount rates, respectively)

    Other than that, you ste exactly right.

    • Replies: @Jus' Sayin'...
    @Rob

    You are right. I meant low internal discount rates.

  36. Head Start has been proven to be a total failure in light of its founding purpose. But that doesn’t mean it has been eliminated.

    Pre-K and Head Start are sold as academic measures, when all they really are, are free babysitting.

    • Agree: Old Prude
    • Replies: @Old Prude
    @countenance

    Head Start has been proven to be a total failure

    As an illustration of what blockheads general officers are - how they know next to nothing outside their little sphere of pushing their careers forward - a retired four-star who lives out by the beach in our town wrote an op-ed to the town paper that the country needs to spend more money on Head Start. He was completely ignorant of the facts. Like most field-grades: No intellectual independence. Just mouthing the party line.

  37. Pre-k is basically daycare as there isn’t much to do pedagogically for 3-4 year olds. More than 24 hours per week daycare has been shown to negatively affect child development, ergo, pre-k hurts learning.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Thea

    I'm remembering enforced naps, group singing ("strum it on the old banjo"), finger painting, and falling in the creek. That was 50-odd years ago.

    Replies: @Coemgen

  38. Obviously the secret hope of the left is that early childhood education can help because theoretically you are removing poor and low education minority kids from dysfunctional parents/homes for a period of time and putting them in a superior social environment. However, often it’s just a like for like trade or maybe worse. Head Start jobs and similar are basically workfare and the primary achievement is providing a paycheck for employees that would be hard pressed to earn similar money that doesn’t involve a drive through window.

    Semi-related, my local public school district is launching some kind of program intended to ensure more minority teachers are available in the pipeline because there is a big disparity in the racial demographics of the teacher corps and the students. Curiously, none of the reporting on this notes the significant disparities in teacher licensing pass rates, nor do they wonder what it means when local universities consistently graduate diverse education majors that cannot obtain a license.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @Arclight

    Arc, good comment and in NYC the teachers exam was found to be illegal, twice, because...well you know who wasn't passing. Hand kids over to Head Start teachers from the same enviroment, who need a make work job, can't help but fail.

    Replies: @Arclight

  39. Teachers unions will just demand “remote” pre-K

  40. Democrats pin a lot of hopes on pre-K as part of their long term push to spend more money on childcare up to but not earlier than 8 months and 29 days before birth.

    Nobel Memorial Prize Laureate Professor James Heckman says that the key to solving many of America’s problems (e.g., “record rates for high school drop outs, a lack of college graduates, increasing rates of obesity and chronic diseases, rising crime and a growing underclass” ) as well as something that will “reduce deficits and strengthen the economy” is having the government provide high-quality birth-to-five childcare to “disadvantaged” mothers.

    https://heckmanequation.org/resource/invest-in-early-childhood-development-reduce-deficits-strengthen-the-economy/

    “The highest rate of return in early childhood development comes from investing as early as possible, from birth through age five, in disadvantaged families. Starting at age three or four is too little too late, as it fails to recognize that skills beget skills in a complementary and dynamic way. Efforts should focus on the first years for the greatest efficiency and effectiveness. The best investment is in quality early childhood development from birth to five for disadvantaged children and their families.”—James J. Heckman, December 7, 2012

    Heckman claims that the return on such “investment” is huge:
    QUOTE
    Professor Heckman’s analysis of the Perry Preschool program shows a 7% to 10% per year return on investment based on increased school and career achievement as well as reduced costs in remedial education, health and criminal justice system expenditures.
    Professor Heckman’s most recent research analyzed Abecedarian/CARE’s comprehensive, high-quality, birth-to-five early childhood programs for disadvantaged children, which yielded a 13% return on investment per child, per annum through better education, economic, health, and social outcomes.
    END QUOTE

    Professor Heckman bases these claims on the supposed results of the small-scale Perry Preschool and the Abecedarian projects (represented by dots in the scatterplot above) from respectively about 50 and 40 years ago.

    https://heckmanequation.org/resource/heckman-equation-flyer/

    QUOTE
    5. We already have successful programs that can and should be implemented in local communities across America.
    Professor Heckman’s analysis of economic return is based on two long-running pilot programs in the United States, Perry Preschool and Abecedarian. Similar programs, such as Early Head Start and Educare, are built on many of the principles Professor Heckman has identified as necessary for an effective investment in locally run and controlled early childhood education.
    END QUOTE

    To the extent that these small-scale projects really did have the effects that Heckman claims, he does not seem worried that such benefits would not survive massive up-scaling. And is the world today perhaps different from how it was 40+ years ago?

    Also, Heckman does not consider the possibility that greatly reducing the burdens of motherhood for the women who tend to have the worst children would cause those women to have even more children.

    Heckman is supposed to be a smart and sensible guy, but this Heckman Equation stuff strikes me as crazy and idiotic.

    • Replies: @Rob
    @Calvin Hobbes

    I’m too lazy to Google, but I seem to recall Abecedarian being fraudulent. Arguendo it was real. A Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel winner should have some inkling of scale and opportunity cost.

    (again too lazy to Google) there have to be at least 10 million very young children of dumb women and their sperm donors. Where are these fantastic pre-school caregivers going to come from? If I have a plan to jumpstart America’s 21st-century science and tech, but it requires that 20 million Nobel prize winners teach one on one high school science, my program won’t scale beyond the children of Nobel Prize winners.

    The women, not even an economist is autistic enough to think that the people “enriching” the lives of “disadvantaged” children should be men, could do other things. There are other things intelligent nurturing women should be doing. Like, um, maybe having kids? So there will be caring, intelligent women in the next generation?

    It’s like how every so often a privileged guy (boarding school from junior high sort) will think that all we have to do to break the cycle of poverty is create a Grottlesex for every couple/three hundred black teenagers. These days, we know China will lend us the money, but where could we find tens of thousands of people who want to be dorm dads to hundreds of proto-gangbangers? Some men want to live with barely-parented teenagers in institutional environments. You would have to be really, really racist to want to expose kids to that.

    The fact is, that every No Child Left Behind scheme will have the resistance of cons plus ever-greater numbers of blackpilled normies to contend with. Someone suggested that we should stop trying to get “moderate solutions” passed and let extremists trade things they really want for things the extremists on the other side want. One possibility would be Green New Deal for No More Immigrants Ever or Voting Rights Guarantee for Democrats Stop Cheating in Elections. Even Defund the Police/Empty the Prisons in exchange for Blacks Can Be Kept Out of Your Town. That sort of thing seems more likely to lead to problems getting solved than the D side’s plan to break ever more stuff so cons and normies are trying to put out fires. The Defund/Keep Out compromise could even be sold as Letting Communities Define Themselves. It would let people live in the social structures they want.

    If we have to have a second Great Society, it has to come with severe limits on the problems getting larger. I’d honestly think high “investment” in junk children would be worth it if it came with a “these are the last junk children the country will ever have” guarantee. Like, your kid can enroll, but you and any 12+ year-old kids, you already have get sterilized. Couple that with a “no more immigrants ever” Constitutional amendment and we could make serious eugenic progress.

    It would be interesting to try “Your Goal, Our Means” to try to move forward. The application of this principle to carbon output would be great. We commit to reducing CO₂ output through building nuclear power plants and ending third world immigration.

    The fact is that Cthulhu Swims Left means that the Democrats are going to shovel money to their pets, maybe we should try to get what we can out of it? I know the R’s will give the left anything they want in exchange for a capital gains tax cut, but if we could have anything policy-wise, a return to free association would be great. Making the underclass smaller would also be wonderful. Reducing the lawyer and diversity taxes would be great, too.

    I Have Used A Lot Of Capitals This Post. I Feel Ghetto.

    I’m curious what kind of grand compromises people would be willing to make. I’d give the left most anything they want if we could get eugenic fertility out of it.

    Replies: @Calvin Hobbes, @Old Prude

    , @Cato
    @Calvin Hobbes

    Heckman suffers from a condition called "Nobelitis" -- it's a common condition among Economics Nobel winners. Its most obvious symptom is the assurance that one knows better than everyone else. Even about subjects outside one's specialty.

    To be fair: his work in econometrics is said to be actually pretty good.

  41. @J.Ross
    The fad preceded the phrase but wasn't it the sort of parent who would now "believe the science" who bought Baby Mozart?

    Replies: @stillCARealist

    My kid watched Baby Mozart, and the related videos, for hundreds of hours back in the early aughts. Now he’s an accomplished pianist and a graduate student in electrical engineering.

    You can’t deny the connection; stop being a doubter, Ross.

    • Replies: @Alden
    @stillCARealist

    You know what are really excellent? The potty training videos. I move been told. One for girls one for boys. At least when they started making them. Now some probably are for trans propaganda.

    Are you positive it was just the baby Mozart? Or does your son come from a long line of mathematicians engineers electricians architects builders and 17 18 th century surveyors?

  42. @Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)
    "A negative effect was also found for disciplinary infractions, attendance, and receipt of special education services, with null effects on retention."

    "Retention"? What does that mean in this context? Does "retention" mean "staying in school"? So ya mean, some pre-seventh-grade pupils drop out of school? What happens to these drop-outs?

    Replies: @Hi There

    Generally, “retention” refers to learning retention. Education researchers test student learning and then later retest and see which knowledge and skills students keep over time and which students forget.

    • Replies: @Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)
    @Hi There

    Hi there, Hi There. Ah, so "retention" is the opposite of forgetting. For some reason I was thinking in a penal context, where "retention" is the opposite of escaping. Thanks.

  43. @Jus' Sayin'...
    @Anon7


    Hint#2: It’s free daycare.
     
    Hint #3: The kind of people who need the free day care provided by government-funded pre-K education are much more likely to have low or no honestly earned income and to be single-parents of multiple bastards, with disorganized lives, and few personal resources, such as average or above average intelligence, high internal discount rates, long internal time horizons, and high impulse control.

    There is a genetic component to these personal resources. Parents without them are likely to produce children without them. Such children, as they grow older, are likely to exhibit exactly the negative characteristics this study found as pre-K children went through elementary education, e.g. lower state achievement test scores, disciplinary infractions, poor attendance records, receipt of special education services, with null effects on retention.

    I suspect that controls for the children's race would capture some of this. I also suspect that such controls were not included in the study because that would require dangerous levels of noticing and noticing can be harmful to professional careers.

    Replies: @Rob, @AnotherDad, @Rosie

    I suspect that controls for the children’s race would capture some of this. I also suspect that such controls were not included in the study because that would require dangerous levels of noticing and noticing can be harmful to professional careers.

    The controls here look pretty good. They all applied and what group the kids were in was by lottery.

    • Replies: @Spangel226
    @AnotherDad

    I’m curious as to why the outcomes for pre school kids were worse. No surprise that they are not better. But why worse?

    , @Jus' Sayin'...
    @AnotherDad

    I didn't read the study. I'll retract my last paragraph in light of your more informed comment.

  44. @Art Deco
    @Mike Tre

    Pre-K teachers are paid a mean of $36,000 a year plus benefits. Kindergarten teachers are paid a mean of $61,000 plus benefits. In re pre-K teachers, someone at the 10th percentile is paid about $22,000 a year.

    The question at hand would be is pre-kindergarten inherently useless or do the teachers have systematically crappy training. Either is plausible.

    Replies: @stillCARealist, @possumman

    Why would a pre-K teacher need training? It’s just baby-sitting. Most 14 year old girls can do it just fine.

    I think what public Kindergarten teachers really want is more socializing for the 4 year olds that they’ll be receiving into their classes shortly. They want the kids ready for some classroom time. Specifically, they want the wild ones labeled early so they know who to medicate or get an aide for.

    If anything’s systemic, it’s public education. Steve’s earlier post was about systemic racism, well this is systemic educationism. The system has an internal logic into which everyone must be crammed. The earlier the kids can be molded for a life of the system, the better for us all.

    I think it’s all bunk. Some kids will never learn in a classroom; they’ll only disrupt or tune out. Drugs may give the impression of helping, but mostly the kid just isn’t suited for the constrictions of systemic education.

  45. @NJ Transit Commuter
    Of course pre-K is a panacea, Steve. Look how many jobs it creates for educators.

    Of were you under the impression that teacher’s unions and politicians are concerned about students?

    Replies: @Mike Tre, @Buffalo Joe, @Cato

    In our school district, within the elementary grades, children are not allowed to walk to school. This of course creates the need for more school buses and drivers, and more stops. So much for reducing carbon emissions when it comes to acquiring more tax dollars, I mean, keeping the children safe!

  46. @Jus' Sayin'...
    @anon

    Because Sesame Street is so entertaining, and in ways that particularly appeal to the upper middle classes, it has mostly gotten away without many studies on its impact. At least one such study found that Sesame Street had the kind of negative intellectual effect that one might expect from a television program with its format.

    Children who were regular watchers of Sesame Street demonstrated a lower ability to stay focused and engaged with intellectual material over an extended period. The negative implications are obvious.

    BTW, I once loved spending Saturday mornings with my grad school girlfriend, watching Sesame Street. I'm just not sure that it's a good idea to expose children to the show over an extended period.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Thea

    Studies have shown that all educational videos and shows fail at improving educational outcomes. Sitting in front of a TV just teaches kids to sit in front of the TV. Now educational programs are better than non-educational possibly but not better than any other activity.

  47. @Anon7
    @Almost Missouri

    Hint#2:

    It's free daycare.

    Replies: @Jus' Sayin'..., @Mike Tre

    When the lockdowns started a couple years ago, the schools would still hand out free breakfast and lunches to students if they showed up in the parking lots.

    The high schools have daycare centers in the building for the children of students.

    Have of public education is just welfare for minorities.

    • Replies: @Anon7
    @Mike Tre

    All true. But pre-K "education" is not just welfare - it's "starter socialism".

    The lesson is simple for both men and women; you don't need to create a stable family, just breed. No marriage, no churches, no culture: the state will take the children and rear them for you. The less competent you are as a parent, the more services will be provided.

    Replies: @Reaper

  48. @Art Deco
    @Mike Tre

    Pre-K teachers are paid a mean of $36,000 a year plus benefits. Kindergarten teachers are paid a mean of $61,000 plus benefits. In re pre-K teachers, someone at the 10th percentile is paid about $22,000 a year.

    The question at hand would be is pre-kindergarten inherently useless or do the teachers have systematically crappy training. Either is plausible.

    Replies: @stillCARealist, @possumman

    Babysitting should pay about 50 cents an hour so there is that

  49. @countenance
    Head Start has been proven to be a total failure in light of its founding purpose. But that doesn't mean it has been eliminated.

    Pre-K and Head Start are sold as academic measures, when all they really are, are free babysitting.

    Replies: @Old Prude

    Head Start has been proven to be a total failure

    As an illustration of what blockheads general officers are – how they know next to nothing outside their little sphere of pushing their careers forward – a retired four-star who lives out by the beach in our town wrote an op-ed to the town paper that the country needs to spend more money on Head Start. He was completely ignorant of the facts. Like most field-grades: No intellectual independence. Just mouthing the party line.

  50. I was at some sort of pre-school at age 3 – 4 too. I only have two clear memories.

    #1 There was a garden area outside with the hulk of a London black (Black!) cab we could play in.

    #2 A kid dressed as Bat Man poked me in the eye with an umbrella.

  51. @AnotherDad
    @Jus' Sayin'...


    I suspect that controls for the children’s race would capture some of this. I also suspect that such controls were not included in the study because that would require dangerous levels of noticing and noticing can be harmful to professional careers.
     
    The controls here look pretty good. They all applied and what group the kids were in was by lottery.

    Replies: @Spangel226, @Jus' Sayin'...

    I’m curious as to why the outcomes for pre school kids were worse. No surprise that they are not better. But why worse?

  52. @NJ Transit Commuter
    Of course pre-K is a panacea, Steve. Look how many jobs it creates for educators.

    Of were you under the impression that teacher’s unions and politicians are concerned about students?

    Replies: @Mike Tre, @Buffalo Joe, @Cato

    NJ, public education is a huge job mill. Teachers’ aides, bus aides and cafeteria aides never existed years ago. Not always the greatest pay but good hours and benefits.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Buffalo Joe

    I think the problem is that teachers have been stripped of their discretion to physically coerce students, which has exacerbated disciplinary problems. You hire the aide to take pressure off the other employees, then you have two people who do not have apposite authority to put the trouble-makers in their place.

    Replies: @Rosie

    , @Alden
    @Buffalo Joe

    What’s a cafeteria aide? An 80 IQ black person who is supposed to prevent the 80 IQ black savages from dumping food on the floor and killing each other?

    Private schools the kids are taught table manners by teachers who rotate sitting at tables for 7 or 8 with the kids.

  53. My daughter is reading & writing in Kindergarden but I’m paying 30k/year for it.

  54. @mmack
    @Mike Tre

    Agreed. My mother, who did not have a college degree, and my father, who had a college degree but no “Education” classes taught us four children to read, write, know colors and shapes, and do simple math by the time we reached Kindergarten.

    Now, we were reading Little Golden Books or Dr. Seuss, but we were reading. 👍🏻

    Mom and dad also taught us to tell time with an old fashioned clock ⏰ with hands by end of Kindergarten.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

    mmack, remember the thrill of tying your own shoes. Major accomplishment. Now it is velcro. And, as to what you said, amazing how many little kids get to school and don’t know, colors, up, down, front, back or minimal manners… please and thank you and are potty trained. Stay safe

  55. @Arclight
    Obviously the secret hope of the left is that early childhood education can help because theoretically you are removing poor and low education minority kids from dysfunctional parents/homes for a period of time and putting them in a superior social environment. However, often it's just a like for like trade or maybe worse. Head Start jobs and similar are basically workfare and the primary achievement is providing a paycheck for employees that would be hard pressed to earn similar money that doesn't involve a drive through window.

    Semi-related, my local public school district is launching some kind of program intended to ensure more minority teachers are available in the pipeline because there is a big disparity in the racial demographics of the teacher corps and the students. Curiously, none of the reporting on this notes the significant disparities in teacher licensing pass rates, nor do they wonder what it means when local universities consistently graduate diverse education majors that cannot obtain a license.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

    Arc, good comment and in NYC the teachers exam was found to be illegal, twice, because…well you know who wasn’t passing. Hand kids over to Head Start teachers from the same enviroment, who need a make work job, can’t help but fail.

    • Replies: @Arclight
    @Buffalo Joe

    In DC, former Mayor Fenty got booted from office after bringing in Michelle Rhee who promised to reform the school system by firing ineffective teachers and granting pretty significant bonuses to the best performers. Although everyone recognized that the city's schools were terrible, they realized if Rhee got her way she would be firing many black teachers and administrators.

    Leaving aside the fact that many DC public employees don't actually live in the city, this turned the mayor's re-election campaign into a racial us vs. them contest and Fenty was done. School reform is actually a fairly popular issue with urban black voters, but when it was framed as a mechanism to revoke a god-given right to perpetual government employment in favor of new and more white teachers, the voters made their choice.

    Replies: @Abolish_public_education, @Jim Don Bob

  56. @dearieme
    I'm not clear why anyone expects stunning, or perhaps any, academic results from such activities. When our daughter was young she was an only child. We leapt at the opportunity for her to meet other children and learn to be happy in their company.

    She started her Australian kindergarten at age two-and-a-half. It was brilliant, being staffed by kind, well trained, young women whose métier was obviously looking after infants. The fees were bearable, being based on my not very grand income. After a year of that we moved to Britain where she attended a Town Council "nursery school". It wasn't as good but it was worthwhile, it was free, and she made a friend-for-life there. After that she had a standard English schooling for several years.

    At which point in all this she learned to read I have no idea. Nor do I think it matters much. She looked forward to going to school every day which is probably the outcome you'd hope for.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    At which point in all this she learned to read I have no idea. Nor do I think it matters much. She looked forward to going to school every day which is probably the outcome you’d hope for.

    One is on occasion reminded that Britain may be the occidental world’s least child-centered society, in addition to being the most alcohol-steeped. But the breakfasts are da bomb (except for the toast).

  57. @Thea
    Pre-k is basically daycare as there isn’t much to do pedagogically for 3-4 year olds. More than 24 hours per week daycare has been shown to negatively affect child development, ergo, pre-k hurts learning.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    I’m remembering enforced naps, group singing (“strum it on the old banjo”), finger painting, and falling in the creek. That was 50-odd years ago.

    • Replies: @Coemgen
    @Art Deco


    I’m remembering enforced naps, group singing (“strum it on the old banjo”), finger painting, and falling in the creek. That was 50-odd years ago.
     
    Pretty much my experience in kindergarten 55-odd years ago -- except instead of "falling in the creek" it was "stepping over drunks lying in the gutter."
  58. @Buffalo Joe
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    NJ, public education is a huge job mill. Teachers' aides, bus aides and cafeteria aides never existed years ago. Not always the greatest pay but good hours and benefits.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @Alden

    I think the problem is that teachers have been stripped of their discretion to physically coerce students, which has exacerbated disciplinary problems. You hire the aide to take pressure off the other employees, then you have two people who do not have apposite authority to put the trouble-makers in their place.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    @Art Deco


    I think the problem is that teachers have been stripped of their discretion to physically coerce students, which has exacerbated disciplinary problems.
     
    Indeed. When teachers aren't empowered to keep kids in line, they're going to need more help.

    Apart from that, it's not at all clear that the fact that previous generations of teachers did without aides means that it is pointless to have aides, even setting aside the question of discipline. I'm sure that, if you asked them, they would say they could have used another pair of hands. Why the assumption that less is better than more? Would there be an objection if more people were hired to make life easier, less stressful, or more rewarding for men working in male-dominated jobs?

    That is just silly. It seems to me that an improvement in working conditions is exactly the sort of intangible good that people have a right expect when productivity increases. This is common sense.

    Replies: @Jmaie

  59. My initial take on the conclusion of this study is that parents (particularly moms) who drop off their kids at pre-school spent far less time with their children than those who don’t.

    So they aren’t spending time with them getting them to read books or engage in educational activities. Learn the alphabet, can handle arithmetic, etc.

    I could read prior to kindergarten. Of course my mother (50s decade) didn’t work. She spent time with her children getting them to learn the alphabet, etc. all of the simple things needed for later learning. We had encyclopedia sets.

    So perhaps “smashing the patriarchy” is the real root cause of this effect. Mama wants to/has to work and kids are shipped off to paid baby sitters. They watch low IQ themed “kiddie shows” on videos and keep them quiet and tired.

    Of course low IQ parents might not do the same as my mother did. I am appalled to hear that many welfare homes (and others) have zero books, newspapers or magazines to read. Now, probably just computers and cell phones and TV sets.

    Why teach them to actually read (a big problem in “poverty” homes) when you can brainwash them by endless video games and colorful magic reality cartoons. No wonder they grow up and vote Democrat. We end up in Clown World, just like the videos.

  60. All education is a full employment scheme for woke and proto-woke a-holes. Helping children has nothing to do with it.

  61. @Art Deco
    @Thea

    I'm remembering enforced naps, group singing ("strum it on the old banjo"), finger painting, and falling in the creek. That was 50-odd years ago.

    Replies: @Coemgen

    I’m remembering enforced naps, group singing (“strum it on the old banjo”), finger painting, and falling in the creek. That was 50-odd years ago.

    Pretty much my experience in kindergarten 55-odd years ago — except instead of “falling in the creek” it was “stepping over drunks lying in the gutter.”

  62. @Buffalo Joe
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    NJ, public education is a huge job mill. Teachers' aides, bus aides and cafeteria aides never existed years ago. Not always the greatest pay but good hours and benefits.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @Alden

    What’s a cafeteria aide? An 80 IQ black person who is supposed to prevent the 80 IQ black savages from dumping food on the floor and killing each other?

    Private schools the kids are taught table manners by teachers who rotate sitting at tables for 7 or 8 with the kids.

  63. Pre-K in NYC is mainly a sneaky way to get Spanish-speaking kids to speak English.

  64. @Rob
    @Jus' Sayin'...


    few personal resources, such as average or above average intelligence, high internal discount rates, long internal time horizons, and high impulse control.
     
    Want a quibble?

    Well, You’ve got one!

    A high discount rate means s high implicit interest rate required for future stuff. If i think $11,000 dollars next year is equivalent to $10k now, i have a lower discount rate than if the future anount has to be $12,500 to make me indifferent to now vs later (10% and 25% annual diacount rates, respectively)

    Other than that, you ste exactly right.

    Replies: @Jus' Sayin'...

    You are right. I meant low internal discount rates.

  65. @stillCARealist
    @J.Ross

    My kid watched Baby Mozart, and the related videos, for hundreds of hours back in the early aughts. Now he's an accomplished pianist and a graduate student in electrical engineering.

    You can't deny the connection; stop being a doubter, Ross.

    Replies: @Alden

    You know what are really excellent? The potty training videos. I move been told. One for girls one for boys. At least when they started making them. Now some probably are for trans propaganda.

    Are you positive it was just the baby Mozart? Or does your son come from a long line of mathematicians engineers electricians architects builders and 17 18 th century surveyors?

  66. @AnotherDad
    @Jus' Sayin'...


    I suspect that controls for the children’s race would capture some of this. I also suspect that such controls were not included in the study because that would require dangerous levels of noticing and noticing can be harmful to professional careers.
     
    The controls here look pretty good. They all applied and what group the kids were in was by lottery.

    Replies: @Spangel226, @Jus' Sayin'...

    I didn’t read the study. I’ll retract my last paragraph in light of your more informed comment.

  67. What year is this? December 1963 when the triumphant commie Jew puppet LBJ took over from Kennedy? How old am I teens or 70s?

    Same old same old since I was 8 or 9 and saw the newspaper headlines and magazine covers about how school integration would magically transform black kids into geniuses.

    Then LBJ introduced the Head Start jobs for morons programs and Sesame Street. I absolutely refused to allow our kids to watch Sesame St commie black propaganda.

    Where have the decades gone? This is nothing new. Same old same old garbage.

    Black Power Trivia. That evil old black witch Maxine Waters got her start as a Head Start “teacher. “

  68. @Buffalo Joe
    @Arclight

    Arc, good comment and in NYC the teachers exam was found to be illegal, twice, because...well you know who wasn't passing. Hand kids over to Head Start teachers from the same enviroment, who need a make work job, can't help but fail.

    Replies: @Arclight

    In DC, former Mayor Fenty got booted from office after bringing in Michelle Rhee who promised to reform the school system by firing ineffective teachers and granting pretty significant bonuses to the best performers. Although everyone recognized that the city’s schools were terrible, they realized if Rhee got her way she would be firing many black teachers and administrators.

    Leaving aside the fact that many DC public employees don’t actually live in the city, this turned the mayor’s re-election campaign into a racial us vs. them contest and Fenty was done. School reform is actually a fairly popular issue with urban black voters, but when it was framed as a mechanism to revoke a god-given right to perpetual government employment in favor of new and more white teachers, the voters made their choice.

    • Replies: @Abolish_public_education
    @Arclight

    Michelle Rhee who promised to reform the school system by firing ineffective teachers

    NYC public school district, one of the worstest in the country, has a new bureaucrat-chancellor who's really, really serious (this time) about turning things around. By golly, he's going to demote some of the district's 46 superintendents.

    Public education CANNOT be reformed. Nothing will change, except for a few nameplates on the doors back at HQ.

    , @Jim Don Bob
    @Arclight

    Very true. But Fenty got to console himself with the company of the widow Jobs.

    https://bossip.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/28/2016/08/fullsizerender_22.jpg

  69. Some here question the value of early reading.

    I have made this point on occasion:

    Dogs can’t read.

    If you can’t read, you may as well be a dog.

    If you don’t read, ditto. “Here Rover, fetch!”

    People may not like being compared to a dog, but this makes a point.

    If I were hiring anyone, the first thing I’d do (for a serious possible hire) is to pick up a newspaper, book or magazine and have them read aloud a couple of paragraphs.

    That would separate the wheat from the chaff.

    It is possible to learn things by rote, or by copying a well defined procedure by watching someone else. But only low level knowledge. With now extensive testing for dyslexia, there is no excuse for poorly literate students.

    And yet, excuses pour forth…

    • Thanks: Nicholas Stix
  70. .. children randomly assigned to attend pre-K had lower state achievement test scores ..

    My predictably negative takes on:

    • pre-*k are here and here.
    • standardized testing: here and here.

  71. Think of Universal Pre-K like you think about abortion. It’s nothing more than a way for bitchy promiscuous women to escape the consequences of their choices.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    @Batman


    Think of Universal Pre-K like you think about abortion. It’s nothing more than a way for bitchy promiscuous women to escape the consequences of their choices.
     
    And another deranged misogynist lunatic. Nevermind hypergamous, an alien from outer space reading comments on Unz would think Earthling females were autogamous.

    Apart from that, your comment doesn't even make sense. Parents who most need universal pre-K are working-class parents with jobs. You know, most people.

    Replies: @Coemgen, @Jmaie, @Art Deco

    , @Alden
    @Batman

    So enjoy paying taxes to support the welfare babies who should have been aborted to improve the human stock of the nation. And 20 years later enjoy supporting those sweet little baby boys who’ve turned into 80 IQ unemployable criminals and public nuisances.

    Now that abortion is going back to the states, expect a 1960s-80s style crime wave in about 25 years. The states most likely to end abortion will be Texas Louisiana Mississippi Alabama Georgia the Carolinas Tennessee Arkansas all the states with the largest number of dis functional blacks who will reproduce and reproduce.

    And soon the over population of retarded criminal useless blacks will start marching west and north. As they did 100 years ago.

    Typical MAN OF UNZ 0-2 White children 2 at most. Well, we’ve got 8 White grandchildren and we’re looking out for their welfare. Which includes not making it possible for more black predators to breed.

    Replies: @Batman

  72. @Arclight
    @Buffalo Joe

    In DC, former Mayor Fenty got booted from office after bringing in Michelle Rhee who promised to reform the school system by firing ineffective teachers and granting pretty significant bonuses to the best performers. Although everyone recognized that the city's schools were terrible, they realized if Rhee got her way she would be firing many black teachers and administrators.

    Leaving aside the fact that many DC public employees don't actually live in the city, this turned the mayor's re-election campaign into a racial us vs. them contest and Fenty was done. School reform is actually a fairly popular issue with urban black voters, but when it was framed as a mechanism to revoke a god-given right to perpetual government employment in favor of new and more white teachers, the voters made their choice.

    Replies: @Abolish_public_education, @Jim Don Bob

    Michelle Rhee who promised to reform the school system by firing ineffective teachers

    NYC public school district, one of the worstest in the country, has a new bureaucrat-chancellor who’s really, really serious (this time) about turning things around. By golly, he’s going to demote some of the district’s 46 superintendents.

    Public education CANNOT be reformed. Nothing will change, except for a few nameplates on the doors back at HQ.

  73. The upper middle classes in China send their children to boarding kindergartens. An Aussie woman who worked in one talked to the BBC about it and recalled that she protested the kids (some as young as 3 years old) were still having English lessons at 9pm.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Sean


    The upper middle classes in China send their children to boarding kindergartens.
     
    The French are not far behind:


    https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0572/3901/1508/products/unnamed_1_grande.jpg?v=1636995306


    Whereas here:


    https://img.thriftbooks.com/api/images/m/65b61c4c7c24966cba4e3d112f0c6c41ff0ddcf4.jpg

    https://preview.redd.it/92z5o98vh6d71.png?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=3e2e1e2ba0bb967ec501a54ce8942f0e9f99fb10

  74. [T]here wasn’t much academic about my nursery school at all, nor was there much in kindergarten…

    Perhaps my clearest early memory is from Kindergarten. We had been given pencils and instructed to draw various simple shapes.

    For whatever reason I drew a vertical line that touched a circle beside it. This struck me as interesting, and I asked the teacher if I had made a “letter” (having only the vaguest idea what a letter might be). She wouldn’t answer the question. I guess letters weren’t until Grade One.

    Her refusal might have built longstanding resentment in some kids, but it rolled right off my back. Some days I hardly think about it at all.

    • LOL: Old Prude
  75. @Arclight
    @Buffalo Joe

    In DC, former Mayor Fenty got booted from office after bringing in Michelle Rhee who promised to reform the school system by firing ineffective teachers and granting pretty significant bonuses to the best performers. Although everyone recognized that the city's schools were terrible, they realized if Rhee got her way she would be firing many black teachers and administrators.

    Leaving aside the fact that many DC public employees don't actually live in the city, this turned the mayor's re-election campaign into a racial us vs. them contest and Fenty was done. School reform is actually a fairly popular issue with urban black voters, but when it was framed as a mechanism to revoke a god-given right to perpetual government employment in favor of new and more white teachers, the voters made their choice.

    Replies: @Abolish_public_education, @Jim Don Bob

    Very true. But Fenty got to console himself with the company of the widow Jobs.

  76. @Steve Sailer
    @Jus' Sayin'...

    My mother was concerned that I suddenly started watching Sesame Street when it debuted when I was about ten. Wasn't it for little kids?

    "Mom, I'm watching for aesthetic reasons. Sesame Street is a major stylistic breakthrough."

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @J.Ross, @Reg Cæsar, @Reg Cæsar

    My mother was concerned that I suddenly started watching Sesame Street when it debuted when I was about ten. Wasn’t it for little kids?

    So you were a proto-brony? Or is it paleobrony?

    My hypothesis is that you will hate for life any kid’s show that comes out right as you reach puberty. Sesame Street (except the Muppets) and Scooby-Doo still annoy. When I returned to college after the service, my six-year-younger classmates felt the same about The Smurfs.

    I was into Zoom! But all that sticks in memory is Bernadette’s intro:

    The show’s cast were supposed to demonstrate their individual hobbies. But, being a young Oriental tiger-grind, she didn’t have any. Dad taught her this spasm from his Chinese childhood. And it’s what we remember.

    That, and Ubbu Dubbi.

  77. @Alrenous
    There's no evidence any level of schooling makes you more educated.

    There's this great study on unschooling which shows that unschoolers end up at a 4th grade level compared to age-matched 5th grade peers.
    In other words if you skip every day of school for your entire life, you still end up with days - 365 worth of education. All that time and money spent, for no gain whatsoever.
    Everyone already knows this: it's openly talked about when the kids forget everything over the summer. However, they clearly don't like to think about it, so we get these interminable conversations about fantasy worlds where it isn't true.

    Fun fact: this mirrors the result for every IQ-enhancing intervention. You get a minor bump which subsides to nothing within a year of releasing the pressure. You can only get sustained deviation with sustained extrinsic effort. There's no cumulative effect whatsoever, so there's no point applying the pressure much before you wish to apply the results of the pressure. (In other words you don't need to learn math until just before it's time to use the math.)

    --

    There's is great evidence of the opposite.

    It was consciously designed to cripple the children subjected to it.

    "Education should aim at destroying free will so that after pupils are thus schooled they will be incapable throughout the rest of their lives of thinking or acting otherwise than as their school masters would have wished."
    Johann Gottlieb Fichte

    The quotes are consistent across all architects of this system, albeit they get more veiled over time. Most likely because expected exposure increased. Talk openly with your buddies, less openly where your planned victims are likely to overhear.

    It is not an exaggeration to call schools concentration camps for children, meaning teachers are the Nazi guards.

    The point of pre-K is to cripple children even more, because the degeneracy clearly hasn't degenerated far enough yet. They say: faster plz.

    Replies: @Nicholas Stix

    “There’s this great study on unschooling…”

    What “great study”? Why the big tease? Where’s the title and the link?

    • Replies: @Alrenous
    @Nicholas Stix

    You sound like you want to dunk on me more than you actually want the study.

    If this is intentional: yes, I submit to your superiority, oh great wise one. Good dunk sir.

    Replies: @J.Ross

  78. @Sean
    The upper middle classes in China send their children to boarding kindergartens. An Aussie woman who worked in one talked to the BBC about it and recalled that she protested the kids (some as young as 3 years old) were still having English lessons at 9pm.

    https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/little-baby-boy-wear-thick-glasses-home-36846046.jpg

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    The upper middle classes in China send their children to boarding kindergartens.

    The French are not far behind:

    Whereas here:

  79. Universal pre-K ( like all public school) is just early daycare for prospective baby mamas/ state dependents.

    Luckily, their prospective baby daddys usually have their days free, too.

  80. @Calvin Hobbes

    Democrats pin a lot of hopes on pre-K as part of their long term push to spend more money on childcare up to but not earlier than 8 months and 29 days before birth.
     
    Nobel Memorial Prize Laureate Professor James Heckman says that the key to solving many of America’s problems (e.g., “record rates for high school drop outs, a lack of college graduates, increasing rates of obesity and chronic diseases, rising crime and a growing underclass” ) as well as something that will “reduce deficits and strengthen the economy” is having the government provide high-quality birth-to-five childcare to “disadvantaged” mothers.

    https://heckmanequation.org/resource/invest-in-early-childhood-development-reduce-deficits-strengthen-the-economy/

    “The highest rate of return in early childhood development comes from investing as early as possible, from birth through age five, in disadvantaged families. Starting at age three or four is too little too late, as it fails to recognize that skills beget skills in a complementary and dynamic way. Efforts should focus on the first years for the greatest efficiency and effectiveness. The best investment is in quality early childhood development from birth to five for disadvantaged children and their families.”—James J. Heckman, December 7, 2012

    Heckman claims that the return on such “investment” is huge:
    QUOTE
    Professor Heckman’s analysis of the Perry Preschool program shows a 7% to 10% per year return on investment based on increased school and career achievement as well as reduced costs in remedial education, health and criminal justice system expenditures.
    Professor Heckman’s most recent research analyzed Abecedarian/CARE’s comprehensive, high-quality, birth-to-five early childhood programs for disadvantaged children, which yielded a 13% return on investment per child, per annum through better education, economic, health, and social outcomes.
    END QUOTE

    Professor Heckman bases these claims on the supposed results of the small-scale Perry Preschool and the Abecedarian projects (represented by dots in the scatterplot above) from respectively about 50 and 40 years ago.

    https://heckmanequation.org/resource/heckman-equation-flyer/

    QUOTE
    5. We already have successful programs that can and should be implemented in local communities across America.
    Professor Heckman’s analysis of economic return is based on two long-running pilot programs in the United States, Perry Preschool and Abecedarian. Similar programs, such as Early Head Start and Educare, are built on many of the principles Professor Heckman has identified as necessary for an effective investment in locally run and controlled early childhood education.
    END QUOTE

    To the extent that these small-scale projects really did have the effects that Heckman claims, he does not seem worried that such benefits would not survive massive up-scaling. And is the world today perhaps different from how it was 40+ years ago?

    Also, Heckman does not consider the possibility that greatly reducing the burdens of motherhood for the women who tend to have the worst children would cause those women to have even more children.

    Heckman is supposed to be a smart and sensible guy, but this Heckman Equation stuff strikes me as crazy and idiotic.

    Replies: @Rob, @Cato

    I’m too lazy to Google, but I seem to recall Abecedarian being fraudulent. Arguendo it was real. A Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel winner should have some inkling of scale and opportunity cost.

    [MORE]

    (again too lazy to Google) there have to be at least 10 million very young children of dumb women and their sperm donors. Where are these fantastic pre-school caregivers going to come from? If I have a plan to jumpstart America’s 21st-century science and tech, but it requires that 20 million Nobel prize winners teach one on one high school science, my program won’t scale beyond the children of Nobel Prize winners.

    The women, not even an economist is autistic enough to think that the people “enriching” the lives of “disadvantaged” children should be men, could do other things. There are other things intelligent nurturing women should be doing. Like, um, maybe having kids? So there will be caring, intelligent women in the next generation?

    It’s like how every so often a privileged guy (boarding school from junior high sort) will think that all we have to do to break the cycle of poverty is create a Grottlesex for every couple/three hundred black teenagers. These days, we know China will lend us the money, but where could we find tens of thousands of people who want to be dorm dads to hundreds of proto-gangbangers? Some men want to live with barely-parented teenagers in institutional environments. You would have to be really, really racist to want to expose kids to that.

    The fact is, that every No Child Left Behind scheme will have the resistance of cons plus ever-greater numbers of blackpilled normies to contend with. Someone suggested that we should stop trying to get “moderate solutions” passed and let extremists trade things they really want for things the extremists on the other side want. One possibility would be Green New Deal for No More Immigrants Ever or Voting Rights Guarantee for Democrats Stop Cheating in Elections. Even Defund the Police/Empty the Prisons in exchange for Blacks Can Be Kept Out of Your Town. That sort of thing seems more likely to lead to problems getting solved than the D side’s plan to break ever more stuff so cons and normies are trying to put out fires. The Defund/Keep Out compromise could even be sold as Letting Communities Define Themselves. It would let people live in the social structures they want.

    If we have to have a second Great Society, it has to come with severe limits on the problems getting larger. I’d honestly think high “investment” in junk children would be worth it if it came with a “these are the last junk children the country will ever have” guarantee. Like, your kid can enroll, but you and any 12+ year-old kids, you already have get sterilized. Couple that with a “no more immigrants ever” Constitutional amendment and we could make serious eugenic progress.

    It would be interesting to try “Your Goal, Our Means” to try to move forward. The application of this principle to carbon output would be great. We commit to reducing CO₂ output through building nuclear power plants and ending third world immigration.

    The fact is that Cthulhu Swims Left means that the Democrats are going to shovel money to their pets, maybe we should try to get what we can out of it? I know the R’s will give the left anything they want in exchange for a capital gains tax cut, but if we could have anything policy-wise, a return to free association would be great. Making the underclass smaller would also be wonderful. Reducing the lawyer and diversity taxes would be great, too.

    I Have Used A Lot Of Capitals This Post. I Feel Ghetto.

    I’m curious what kind of grand compromises people would be willing to make. I’d give the left most anything they want if we could get eugenic fertility out of it.

    • Replies: @Calvin Hobbes
    @Rob

    Trying to push for domestic “eugenic fertility” somehow would be very sensible, but it would be tricky. Is there some way we could pay (or otherwise reward) people who should not be having children not to have children? Even if it were possible in principle, probably nothing at all effective would be possible politically.

    Something that would be much less tricky and that we would do if we had any sense is eugenic immigration policy. Given that we can’t trust our government to make sensible decisions on immigration, an immigration moratorium makes a lot of sense, but we should at least keep out people who are likely to cause trouble or be a burden on the rest of us.

    I’m pretty sure Heckman would classify many immigrants (including illegals) as the sorts of “disadvantaged” people whose children should be getting high-quality, birth-to-five childcare, paid for by us of course. Somehow the thought of improving the quality of people in America by not importing low-quality people never occurs to this brilliant economist Heckman. No, we should import millions of low-quality people and hope that if we have the government raise their children, then those children will not be of quite such low quality. What could possibly go wrong?

    , @Old Prude
    @Rob

    And then you woke up...And your pants were wet...

    Replies: @Rob

  81. @NJ Transit Commuter
    Of course pre-K is a panacea, Steve. Look how many jobs it creates for educators.

    Of were you under the impression that teacher’s unions and politicians are concerned about students?

    Replies: @Mike Tre, @Buffalo Joe, @Cato

    You are correct: pre-K is about creating more employment for otherwise not easily employed persons; it’s not about students. The survival of Head Start is perhaps the best evidence: despite the fact that only about 5 percent of the studies of its effectiveness are positive, the program has never been in danger of being terminated.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    @Cato

    A study done 20+ years ago showed that the effects of Head Start were gone by third grade, so Congress doubled its budget. It's a jobs program for Ds dressed up as helping the poor.

    Replies: @Rooster12

  82. @Rob
    @Calvin Hobbes

    I’m too lazy to Google, but I seem to recall Abecedarian being fraudulent. Arguendo it was real. A Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel winner should have some inkling of scale and opportunity cost.

    (again too lazy to Google) there have to be at least 10 million very young children of dumb women and their sperm donors. Where are these fantastic pre-school caregivers going to come from? If I have a plan to jumpstart America’s 21st-century science and tech, but it requires that 20 million Nobel prize winners teach one on one high school science, my program won’t scale beyond the children of Nobel Prize winners.

    The women, not even an economist is autistic enough to think that the people “enriching” the lives of “disadvantaged” children should be men, could do other things. There are other things intelligent nurturing women should be doing. Like, um, maybe having kids? So there will be caring, intelligent women in the next generation?

    It’s like how every so often a privileged guy (boarding school from junior high sort) will think that all we have to do to break the cycle of poverty is create a Grottlesex for every couple/three hundred black teenagers. These days, we know China will lend us the money, but where could we find tens of thousands of people who want to be dorm dads to hundreds of proto-gangbangers? Some men want to live with barely-parented teenagers in institutional environments. You would have to be really, really racist to want to expose kids to that.

    The fact is, that every No Child Left Behind scheme will have the resistance of cons plus ever-greater numbers of blackpilled normies to contend with. Someone suggested that we should stop trying to get “moderate solutions” passed and let extremists trade things they really want for things the extremists on the other side want. One possibility would be Green New Deal for No More Immigrants Ever or Voting Rights Guarantee for Democrats Stop Cheating in Elections. Even Defund the Police/Empty the Prisons in exchange for Blacks Can Be Kept Out of Your Town. That sort of thing seems more likely to lead to problems getting solved than the D side’s plan to break ever more stuff so cons and normies are trying to put out fires. The Defund/Keep Out compromise could even be sold as Letting Communities Define Themselves. It would let people live in the social structures they want.

    If we have to have a second Great Society, it has to come with severe limits on the problems getting larger. I’d honestly think high “investment” in junk children would be worth it if it came with a “these are the last junk children the country will ever have” guarantee. Like, your kid can enroll, but you and any 12+ year-old kids, you already have get sterilized. Couple that with a “no more immigrants ever” Constitutional amendment and we could make serious eugenic progress.

    It would be interesting to try “Your Goal, Our Means” to try to move forward. The application of this principle to carbon output would be great. We commit to reducing CO₂ output through building nuclear power plants and ending third world immigration.

    The fact is that Cthulhu Swims Left means that the Democrats are going to shovel money to their pets, maybe we should try to get what we can out of it? I know the R’s will give the left anything they want in exchange for a capital gains tax cut, but if we could have anything policy-wise, a return to free association would be great. Making the underclass smaller would also be wonderful. Reducing the lawyer and diversity taxes would be great, too.

    I Have Used A Lot Of Capitals This Post. I Feel Ghetto.

    I’m curious what kind of grand compromises people would be willing to make. I’d give the left most anything they want if we could get eugenic fertility out of it.

    Replies: @Calvin Hobbes, @Old Prude

    Trying to push for domestic “eugenic fertility” somehow would be very sensible, but it would be tricky. Is there some way we could pay (or otherwise reward) people who should not be having children not to have children? Even if it were possible in principle, probably nothing at all effective would be possible politically.

    Something that would be much less tricky and that we would do if we had any sense is eugenic immigration policy. Given that we can’t trust our government to make sensible decisions on immigration, an immigration moratorium makes a lot of sense, but we should at least keep out people who are likely to cause trouble or be a burden on the rest of us.

    I’m pretty sure Heckman would classify many immigrants (including illegals) as the sorts of “disadvantaged” people whose children should be getting high-quality, birth-to-five childcare, paid for by us of course. Somehow the thought of improving the quality of people in America by not importing low-quality people never occurs to this brilliant economist Heckman. No, we should import millions of low-quality people and hope that if we have the government raise their children, then those children will not be of quite such low quality. What could possibly go wrong?

  83. @Calvin Hobbes

    Democrats pin a lot of hopes on pre-K as part of their long term push to spend more money on childcare up to but not earlier than 8 months and 29 days before birth.
     
    Nobel Memorial Prize Laureate Professor James Heckman says that the key to solving many of America’s problems (e.g., “record rates for high school drop outs, a lack of college graduates, increasing rates of obesity and chronic diseases, rising crime and a growing underclass” ) as well as something that will “reduce deficits and strengthen the economy” is having the government provide high-quality birth-to-five childcare to “disadvantaged” mothers.

    https://heckmanequation.org/resource/invest-in-early-childhood-development-reduce-deficits-strengthen-the-economy/

    “The highest rate of return in early childhood development comes from investing as early as possible, from birth through age five, in disadvantaged families. Starting at age three or four is too little too late, as it fails to recognize that skills beget skills in a complementary and dynamic way. Efforts should focus on the first years for the greatest efficiency and effectiveness. The best investment is in quality early childhood development from birth to five for disadvantaged children and their families.”—James J. Heckman, December 7, 2012

    Heckman claims that the return on such “investment” is huge:
    QUOTE
    Professor Heckman’s analysis of the Perry Preschool program shows a 7% to 10% per year return on investment based on increased school and career achievement as well as reduced costs in remedial education, health and criminal justice system expenditures.
    Professor Heckman’s most recent research analyzed Abecedarian/CARE’s comprehensive, high-quality, birth-to-five early childhood programs for disadvantaged children, which yielded a 13% return on investment per child, per annum through better education, economic, health, and social outcomes.
    END QUOTE

    Professor Heckman bases these claims on the supposed results of the small-scale Perry Preschool and the Abecedarian projects (represented by dots in the scatterplot above) from respectively about 50 and 40 years ago.

    https://heckmanequation.org/resource/heckman-equation-flyer/

    QUOTE
    5. We already have successful programs that can and should be implemented in local communities across America.
    Professor Heckman’s analysis of economic return is based on two long-running pilot programs in the United States, Perry Preschool and Abecedarian. Similar programs, such as Early Head Start and Educare, are built on many of the principles Professor Heckman has identified as necessary for an effective investment in locally run and controlled early childhood education.
    END QUOTE

    To the extent that these small-scale projects really did have the effects that Heckman claims, he does not seem worried that such benefits would not survive massive up-scaling. And is the world today perhaps different from how it was 40+ years ago?

    Also, Heckman does not consider the possibility that greatly reducing the burdens of motherhood for the women who tend to have the worst children would cause those women to have even more children.

    Heckman is supposed to be a smart and sensible guy, but this Heckman Equation stuff strikes me as crazy and idiotic.

    Replies: @Rob, @Cato

    Heckman suffers from a condition called “Nobelitis” — it’s a common condition among Economics Nobel winners. Its most obvious symptom is the assurance that one knows better than everyone else. Even about subjects outside one’s specialty.

    To be fair: his work in econometrics is said to be actually pretty good.

  84. @Nicholas Stix
    @Alrenous

    "There’s this great study on unschooling..."

    What "great study"? Why the big tease? Where's the title and the link?

    Replies: @Alrenous

    You sound like you want to dunk on me more than you actually want the study.

    If this is intentional: yes, I submit to your superiority, oh great wise one. Good dunk sir.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @Alrenous

    Is it this?
    https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/freedom-learn/201406/survey-grown-unschoolers-i-overview-findings

    Replies: @Alrenous

  85. @Mike Tre
    I think it's a good idea to teach toddler aged children their abc's and 123's as early as they can learn them, but it's a task for parents, not minimum wage 20 something women (or worse, immigrants) punching a clock in between hookups at the local sport bars.

    Replies: @JimDandy, @mmack, @Coemgen, @Art Deco, @Rosie

    I think it’s a good idea to teach toddler aged children their abc’s and 123’s as early as they can learn them, but it’s a task for parents, not minimum wage 20 something women (or worse, immigrants) punching a clock in between hookups at the local sport bars.

    Good grief, what a monomaniacal nutcase! Imagine trying to have a rational debate about the benefits of preschool and having some deranged assclown turn it into a question of whether or not it allows young women to earn a living and, ipso factor, have more sex with strangers. There is something seriously wrong with you. Get help!

    Anyway, you’re wrong on all counts. There is no documented benefit to preschool academics whatsoever. The powers that be are grasping at straws because they can’t face the fact that academic achievement is declining because of demographics.

    • LOL: Mike Tre
  86. @Art Deco
    @Buffalo Joe

    I think the problem is that teachers have been stripped of their discretion to physically coerce students, which has exacerbated disciplinary problems. You hire the aide to take pressure off the other employees, then you have two people who do not have apposite authority to put the trouble-makers in their place.

    Replies: @Rosie

    I think the problem is that teachers have been stripped of their discretion to physically coerce students, which has exacerbated disciplinary problems.

    Indeed. When teachers aren’t empowered to keep kids in line, they’re going to need more help.

    Apart from that, it’s not at all clear that the fact that previous generations of teachers did without aides means that it is pointless to have aides, even setting aside the question of discipline. I’m sure that, if you asked them, they would say they could have used another pair of hands. Why the assumption that less is better than more? Would there be an objection if more people were hired to make life easier, less stressful, or more rewarding for men working in male-dominated jobs?

    That is just silly. It seems to me that an improvement in working conditions is exactly the sort of intangible good that people have a right expect when productivity increases. This is common sense.

    • Replies: @Jmaie
    @Rosie


    Apart from that, it’s not at all clear that the fact that previous generations of teachers did without aides means that it is pointless to have aides, even setting aside the question of discipline. I’m sure that, if you asked them, they would say they could have used another pair of hands.
     
    I started school mid-sixties, when physical discipline was still allowed. My school had a policy, if you were sent to see the principal once you got a warning and the second time a swat. After my third swat, in the first grade, I decided I didn't care for it and stopped farting around. This is why I still remember my principal's name (Mr. Sandberg) when I can't remember what I had for dinner night before last.

    As to teacher's aides, never in 12 years was there one in any of my classrooms. But let's consider the idea - would make the teacher's life easier to be sure, all it would take was for all of us home owners to pony up few thousand extra in property taxes every year. Who wouldn't be up for that?

    Replies: @mmack

  87. @Batman
    Think of Universal Pre-K like you think about abortion. It's nothing more than a way for bitchy promiscuous women to escape the consequences of their choices.

    Replies: @Rosie, @Alden

    Think of Universal Pre-K like you think about abortion. It’s nothing more than a way for bitchy promiscuous women to escape the consequences of their choices.

    And another deranged misogynist lunatic. Nevermind hypergamous, an alien from outer space reading comments on Unz would think Earthling females were autogamous.

    Apart from that, your comment doesn’t even make sense. Parents who most need universal pre-K are working-class parents with jobs. You know, most people.

    • Replies: @Coemgen
    @Rosie

    "Parents ... need ... pre-K?"

    How did the human race ever survive without it?

    Replies: @Rosie

    , @Jmaie
    @Rosie


    Apart from that, your comment doesn’t even make sense. Parents who most need universal pre-K are working-class parents with jobs. You know, most people.
     
    So you agree, universal pre-K isn't actually about the children.

    Replies: @Rosie

    , @Art Deco
    @Rosie

    Parents who most need universal pre-K are working-class parents with jobs. You know, most people.

    When you state a 'need', you have an implicit purpose in mind. What purpose is not being achieved without day care subsidies?

    Replies: @Rosie

  88. @Jus' Sayin'...
    @Anon7


    Hint#2: It’s free daycare.
     
    Hint #3: The kind of people who need the free day care provided by government-funded pre-K education are much more likely to have low or no honestly earned income and to be single-parents of multiple bastards, with disorganized lives, and few personal resources, such as average or above average intelligence, high internal discount rates, long internal time horizons, and high impulse control.

    There is a genetic component to these personal resources. Parents without them are likely to produce children without them. Such children, as they grow older, are likely to exhibit exactly the negative characteristics this study found as pre-K children went through elementary education, e.g. lower state achievement test scores, disciplinary infractions, poor attendance records, receipt of special education services, with null effects on retention.

    I suspect that controls for the children's race would capture some of this. I also suspect that such controls were not included in the study because that would require dangerous levels of noticing and noticing can be harmful to professional careers.

    Replies: @Rob, @AnotherDad, @Rosie

    Hint #3: The kind of people who need the free day care provided by government-funded pre-K education are much more likely to have low or no honestly earned income and to be single-parents of multiple bastards, with disorganized lives, and few personal resources, such as average or above average intelligence, high internal discount rates, long internal time horizons, and high impulse control.

    Where the hell have you been these last fifty years? As if this were still the fifties where any young man with a high school diploma could get a job with a family wage.

    Seriously, The Unz commentariat spews hatred at women who wait until they are in their financially more-stable thirties to have children. Then they spew some more hatred at women who have children in their financially less-stable twenties and therefore need more social support. The general public is mostly right about the far right: it’s mostly just seething, irrational, hatred that betrays an obsession with controlling other people.

  89. The point of Pre-K isn’t to make black children smarter, but to pursue the morally loftier goal of teaching white children their new second class status relative to non-white children. Therefore, universal Pre-K will not only be available to all, it will be mandatory, with feedings and changings performed in order of intersectional privilege. Also, white children will be taught to accept beatings from black children and black adult staff members without snitching.

  90. Mothers are the best teachers of little ones. Of course some mothers are better than other mothers.

  91. @Hi There
    @Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)

    Generally, "retention" refers to learning retention. Education researchers test student learning and then later retest and see which knowledge and skills students keep over time and which students forget.

    Replies: @Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)

    Hi there, Hi There. Ah, so “retention” is the opposite of forgetting. For some reason I was thinking in a penal context, where “retention” is the opposite of escaping. Thanks.

  92. @Alrenous
    @Nicholas Stix

    You sound like you want to dunk on me more than you actually want the study.

    If this is intentional: yes, I submit to your superiority, oh great wise one. Good dunk sir.

    Replies: @J.Ross

    • Replies: @Alrenous
    @J.Ross

    Nice link. Mainly what I take from it is that the studies replicate.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232544669_The_Impact_of_Schooling_on_Academic_Achievement_Evidence_From_Homeschooled_and_Traditionally_Schooled_Students

  93. Did your mother work, Steve? Not to denigrate your family life, but my experience was that back in those days working moms were the exclusive patrons of daycare, and those were more likely to count on neighbors or other family to provide the care.

    I’m two months older than Steve. Nobody in my neighborhood went to preschool. Most of us didn’t even go to kindergarten. I arrived at St. Joseph’s School for 1st grade able to read, write, and count, thanks to my mother.

    There was never any doubt as to what were the most important things in my mom’s life.

    • Replies: @Old Prude
    @Brutusale

    When Mrs. Prude's mother went to work, Mrs. Prude stayed with her grandparents for the day. Win, win.

  94. @Rosie
    @Batman


    Think of Universal Pre-K like you think about abortion. It’s nothing more than a way for bitchy promiscuous women to escape the consequences of their choices.
     
    And another deranged misogynist lunatic. Nevermind hypergamous, an alien from outer space reading comments on Unz would think Earthling females were autogamous.

    Apart from that, your comment doesn't even make sense. Parents who most need universal pre-K are working-class parents with jobs. You know, most people.

    Replies: @Coemgen, @Jmaie, @Art Deco

    “Parents … need … pre-K?”

    How did the human race ever survive without it?

    • Replies: @Rosie
    @Coemgen


    “Parents … need … pre-K?”

    How did the human race ever survive without it?
     
    Is this supposed to be a joke or serious commentary? The question isn't what hunter-gatherer and agrarian parents needed. The question is what post-industrial parents need.
  95. I think one reason there is a large scale push for federally funded pre-k is about the government subsidizing businesses that use low wage labor.

    The other reason is that the teachers unions hopes to institutionalize these jobs under federal rules. I am sure they hope to organize millions of these workers and collect dues.

    By subsidizing day care, you allow employers to pay less for labor. When I speak of daycare, I mean full time daycare, not a preschool provided a few hours a week.

    When you jam young children into pre-k daycare, you effectively reduce the man-hours per child dedicated towards child rearing. This only works in the free market if the parent freed up by day care earns significantly more than the average cost per child in the day care center. Thus the economics of day care only works for highly productive, high wage earning parents.

    Covid severely disrupted the state’s provision of child care via public schools, because parents have had to stay home to care for their offspring during Covid. This is likely a major reason for the labor shortages the country is experiencing.

    It is possible that some families found that the trade off of income versus childcare did not make sense for them once they began caring for their own children. Most people actually like to raise their children. In fact, the close contact parents had with their children and the public school curriculum during the pandemic revealed to parents that the public schools are counter to parents wishes and beliefs.

    Women have been browbeaten into believing that child care is lowly work, and that they should be employed.

    So now the state and business interests want to get these moms and dads separated from their children again so the parents can get back on the wage slave/tax treadmill, and the children can begin their cultural education.

    Enter the poison fruit of free daycare.

    The net effect is that you will pay taxes for daycare up to 7% if your income whether you use daycare or not. Additionally, it is another bad policy that makes it easier to rear children out of wedlock, effectively chipping away at the two parent family and the father’s tradition roles and responsibilities when he has children.

    If you want to see their awful plan, here are some details:

    https://info.childcareaware.org/hubfs/CCAoA%20BBB%20Act%20Memo%209.17.21.pdf

    • Thanks: Rob
  96. @Cato
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    You are correct: pre-K is about creating more employment for otherwise not easily employed persons; it's not about students. The survival of Head Start is perhaps the best evidence: despite the fact that only about 5 percent of the studies of its effectiveness are positive, the program has never been in danger of being terminated.

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob

    A study done 20+ years ago showed that the effects of Head Start were gone by third grade, so Congress doubled its budget. It’s a jobs program for Ds dressed up as helping the poor.

    • Agree: Art Deco
    • Replies: @Rooster12
    @Jim Don Bob

    It’s wealth redistribution, just like every other program “they” come up with. So now we don’t only need to pay for our children, we get to pay for everyone else’s too!

  97. It may have escaped your attention Steve but there is considerable evidence that the longer people are embroiled in the “Education” morass the more malleable and Ovine they become.
    Why assume this extra time has to be added to the end of the process?

    • Agree: Art Deco
  98. @Rob
    @Calvin Hobbes

    I’m too lazy to Google, but I seem to recall Abecedarian being fraudulent. Arguendo it was real. A Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel winner should have some inkling of scale and opportunity cost.

    (again too lazy to Google) there have to be at least 10 million very young children of dumb women and their sperm donors. Where are these fantastic pre-school caregivers going to come from? If I have a plan to jumpstart America’s 21st-century science and tech, but it requires that 20 million Nobel prize winners teach one on one high school science, my program won’t scale beyond the children of Nobel Prize winners.

    The women, not even an economist is autistic enough to think that the people “enriching” the lives of “disadvantaged” children should be men, could do other things. There are other things intelligent nurturing women should be doing. Like, um, maybe having kids? So there will be caring, intelligent women in the next generation?

    It’s like how every so often a privileged guy (boarding school from junior high sort) will think that all we have to do to break the cycle of poverty is create a Grottlesex for every couple/three hundred black teenagers. These days, we know China will lend us the money, but where could we find tens of thousands of people who want to be dorm dads to hundreds of proto-gangbangers? Some men want to live with barely-parented teenagers in institutional environments. You would have to be really, really racist to want to expose kids to that.

    The fact is, that every No Child Left Behind scheme will have the resistance of cons plus ever-greater numbers of blackpilled normies to contend with. Someone suggested that we should stop trying to get “moderate solutions” passed and let extremists trade things they really want for things the extremists on the other side want. One possibility would be Green New Deal for No More Immigrants Ever or Voting Rights Guarantee for Democrats Stop Cheating in Elections. Even Defund the Police/Empty the Prisons in exchange for Blacks Can Be Kept Out of Your Town. That sort of thing seems more likely to lead to problems getting solved than the D side’s plan to break ever more stuff so cons and normies are trying to put out fires. The Defund/Keep Out compromise could even be sold as Letting Communities Define Themselves. It would let people live in the social structures they want.

    If we have to have a second Great Society, it has to come with severe limits on the problems getting larger. I’d honestly think high “investment” in junk children would be worth it if it came with a “these are the last junk children the country will ever have” guarantee. Like, your kid can enroll, but you and any 12+ year-old kids, you already have get sterilized. Couple that with a “no more immigrants ever” Constitutional amendment and we could make serious eugenic progress.

    It would be interesting to try “Your Goal, Our Means” to try to move forward. The application of this principle to carbon output would be great. We commit to reducing CO₂ output through building nuclear power plants and ending third world immigration.

    The fact is that Cthulhu Swims Left means that the Democrats are going to shovel money to their pets, maybe we should try to get what we can out of it? I know the R’s will give the left anything they want in exchange for a capital gains tax cut, but if we could have anything policy-wise, a return to free association would be great. Making the underclass smaller would also be wonderful. Reducing the lawyer and diversity taxes would be great, too.

    I Have Used A Lot Of Capitals This Post. I Feel Ghetto.

    I’m curious what kind of grand compromises people would be willing to make. I’d give the left most anything they want if we could get eugenic fertility out of it.

    Replies: @Calvin Hobbes, @Old Prude

    And then you woke up…And your pants were wet…

    • LOL: Rob
    • Replies: @Rob
    @Old Prude

    Are my pants wet because i peed them? I’m really hoping that’s why.

  99. @Brutusale
    Did your mother work, Steve? Not to denigrate your family life, but my experience was that back in those days working moms were the exclusive patrons of daycare, and those were more likely to count on neighbors or other family to provide the care.

    I'm two months older than Steve. Nobody in my neighborhood went to preschool. Most of us didn't even go to kindergarten. I arrived at St. Joseph's School for 1st grade able to read, write, and count, thanks to my mother.

    There was never any doubt as to what were the most important things in my mom's life.

    Replies: @Old Prude

    When Mrs. Prude’s mother went to work, Mrs. Prude stayed with her grandparents for the day. Win, win.

  100. Clicked to the original article and then started exploring the “related studies.” A few kernels from “Long Term Effects of Childhood Intervention on Educational Achievement…” results comparing urban low-income children starting in pre-school vs. kindergarten:

    Higher rate of high school completion 49.7% vs. 38.5%
    More years of completed education 10.6 years vs. 10.2 years
    Lower rates of juvenile arrest 16.9% vs. 25.1%
    HS drop out rate 46.7% vs. 55.0%

    This is what, moving kids from the 12th percentile to the 14th percentile?

    On a statistical note, the numbers don’t match up – taking the pre-K kids we have 46.7% dropping out but 49.7% completing, and the non-pre-K kids 38.5% completing but only 55% dropping out.

    No matter, let’s take the pre-K kids using the drop our rates given above. 53.3% finished high school and the average years completed for that cohort was 10.6 years. That tells me the drop out group averaged completing ninth grade. Sheesh…

  101. @Rosie
    @Batman


    Think of Universal Pre-K like you think about abortion. It’s nothing more than a way for bitchy promiscuous women to escape the consequences of their choices.
     
    And another deranged misogynist lunatic. Nevermind hypergamous, an alien from outer space reading comments on Unz would think Earthling females were autogamous.

    Apart from that, your comment doesn't even make sense. Parents who most need universal pre-K are working-class parents with jobs. You know, most people.

    Replies: @Coemgen, @Jmaie, @Art Deco

    Apart from that, your comment doesn’t even make sense. Parents who most need universal pre-K are working-class parents with jobs. You know, most people.

    So you agree, universal pre-K isn’t actually about the children.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    @Jmaie


    So you agree, universal pre-K isn’t actually about the children.
     
    No. I said preschool academics is useless at best. That doesn't change the fact that parents have to work. That cannot helped. Children will likely a better experience in pre-school than some random neighbor's house.

    As to teacher’s aides, never in 12 years was there one in any of my classrooms.
     
    And they had to walk ten miles to school, uphill both ways, barefoot in the snow along with their students, right?

    As to teacher’s aides, never in 12 years was there one in any of my classrooms. But let’s consider the idea – would make the teacher’s life easier to be sure, all it would take was for all of us home owners to pony up few thousand extra in property taxes every year. Who wouldn’t be up for that?
     
    The fundamental problem with this line of reasoning is that you fail to take account of the benefits you get from job-destroying automation and offshoring: cheaper goods. That should help take the edge off that tax increase. That you happen to have survived the ravages of these things, maybe even as a result of your own merits, does not absolve you of the obligation to provide, in some way or another, for your fellow human beings. You are not entitled to retain all of the benefits of greater productivity for yourself. If you disagree with me, what do you think should be done with all these displaced working-class people?

    https://thefablesoup.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/maxresdefault.jpg

    Replies: @Alden, @Jmaie

  102. @Rosie
    @Art Deco


    I think the problem is that teachers have been stripped of their discretion to physically coerce students, which has exacerbated disciplinary problems.
     
    Indeed. When teachers aren't empowered to keep kids in line, they're going to need more help.

    Apart from that, it's not at all clear that the fact that previous generations of teachers did without aides means that it is pointless to have aides, even setting aside the question of discipline. I'm sure that, if you asked them, they would say they could have used another pair of hands. Why the assumption that less is better than more? Would there be an objection if more people were hired to make life easier, less stressful, or more rewarding for men working in male-dominated jobs?

    That is just silly. It seems to me that an improvement in working conditions is exactly the sort of intangible good that people have a right expect when productivity increases. This is common sense.

    Replies: @Jmaie

    Apart from that, it’s not at all clear that the fact that previous generations of teachers did without aides means that it is pointless to have aides, even setting aside the question of discipline. I’m sure that, if you asked them, they would say they could have used another pair of hands.

    I started school mid-sixties, when physical discipline was still allowed. My school had a policy, if you were sent to see the principal once you got a warning and the second time a swat. After my third swat, in the first grade, I decided I didn’t care for it and stopped farting around. This is why I still remember my principal’s name (Mr. Sandberg) when I can’t remember what I had for dinner night before last.

    As to teacher’s aides, never in 12 years was there one in any of my classrooms. But let’s consider the idea – would make the teacher’s life easier to be sure, all it would take was for all of us home owners to pony up few thousand extra in property taxes every year. Who wouldn’t be up for that?

    • Replies: @mmack
    @Jmaie

    "As to teacher’s aides, never in 12 years was there one in any of my classrooms. But let’s consider the idea – would make the teacher’s life easier to be sure, all it would take was for all of us home owners to pony up few thousand extra in property taxes every year. Who wouldn’t be up for that?"

    I started school roughly a decade after you. We started getting student teachers in my grade school (K-6) roughly about 4th or 5th grade. If there were "teacher's aides", they were usually women who volunteered from the community.

    Fast forward to the 2000s. My best friend bought his parent's house, the same house he grew up in, and moved his family in. Since the school districts are the same as when we went to school, his daughter is going and will go to the same grade school / junior high / high school that we both went to.

    Once his daughter started grade school he told me the number of kids per class is roughly the same as when we attended school. (Some classes less, some classes more), but there is now one teacher and TWO full time teacher's aides in the same classroom that only needed one teacher when we were students there.

    Being Silly-nois, property taxes are through the roof to pay for this, and underfunded pensions.

    Replies: @Rosie

  103. @Rosie
    @Batman


    Think of Universal Pre-K like you think about abortion. It’s nothing more than a way for bitchy promiscuous women to escape the consequences of their choices.
     
    And another deranged misogynist lunatic. Nevermind hypergamous, an alien from outer space reading comments on Unz would think Earthling females were autogamous.

    Apart from that, your comment doesn't even make sense. Parents who most need universal pre-K are working-class parents with jobs. You know, most people.

    Replies: @Coemgen, @Jmaie, @Art Deco

    Parents who most need universal pre-K are working-class parents with jobs. You know, most people.

    When you state a ‘need’, you have an implicit purpose in mind. What purpose is not being achieved without day care subsidies?

    • Replies: @Rosie
    @Art Deco


    When you state a ‘need’, you have an implicit purpose in mind. What purpose is not being achieved without day care subsidies?
     
    Normal working-class family life.

    https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2013/05/SDT-2013-05-fertility-education-02.png

    See Muse's comment above, number 93. He is correct. Universal preK, and kindergarten and first grade for that matter, are childcare subsidies. If you have a problem with it, take it up with greedy employers. Otherwise, it just looks like you want to take advantage of cheap goods and services without helping young parents cope with the economic burden of parenthood.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/13/rent-is-going-up-again-heres-why.html

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/apartment-owners-golden-age-primed-to-continue-in-2022-11640091602

    https://qz.com/2101421/rents-in-the-us-are-rising-even-faster-than-home-prices/

    Replies: @Art Deco, @Art Deco

  104. @Jmaie
    @Rosie


    Apart from that, your comment doesn’t even make sense. Parents who most need universal pre-K are working-class parents with jobs. You know, most people.
     
    So you agree, universal pre-K isn't actually about the children.

    Replies: @Rosie

    So you agree, universal pre-K isn’t actually about the children.

    No. I said preschool academics is useless at best. That doesn’t change the fact that parents have to work. That cannot helped. Children will likely a better experience in pre-school than some random neighbor’s house.

    As to teacher’s aides, never in 12 years was there one in any of my classrooms.

    And they had to walk ten miles to school, uphill both ways, barefoot in the snow along with their students, right?

    As to teacher’s aides, never in 12 years was there one in any of my classrooms. But let’s consider the idea – would make the teacher’s life easier to be sure, all it would take was for all of us home owners to pony up few thousand extra in property taxes every year. Who wouldn’t be up for that?

    The fundamental problem with this line of reasoning is that you fail to take account of the benefits you get from job-destroying automation and offshoring: cheaper goods. That should help take the edge off that tax increase. That you happen to have survived the ravages of these things, maybe even as a result of your own merits, does not absolve you of the obligation to provide, in some way or another, for your fellow human beings. You are not entitled to retain all of the benefits of greater productivity for yourself. If you disagree with me, what do you think should be done with all these displaced working-class people?

    • Replies: @Alden
    @Rosie

    It’s always a good idea Rosie, to remember the average of a Man of UNZ is about 80-85. They all grew up in the working class paradise of the early 1950s when even men dishwashers could afford to support a stay at home wife to care for the kids.

    The MEN OF UNZ still believe that the only reason married women with small children work is to show solidarity with the feminazi movement. Not to help provide basic necessities like shelter food and winter heat for kids and spouses.

    The capitalist pig economy of low wages high cost of living and a constantly increasing supply of “ the vast army of the unemployed” has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that mothers have to either work or go on welfare.

    The MEN OF UNZ tend to be anti worker anti decent wages anti labor union. Even though most are or were employees themselves. That’s conservatives. Anti mothers working but pro low wages for the fathers. And by being anti abortion, advocating for the production of more black and Hispanic criminals and welfare slugs.

    Truly a strange crew, conservatives. Anti mothers working but anti a living family wage for the fathers. Anti black criminals, useless AA government worker and general nuisance blacks wandering business districts. But strongly advocating for more production of more useless destructive blacks.

    Conservatives are too stupid to understand these facts.

    More blacks = more crime more AA workers more dangerous schools dumber teachers, nastier public transit parks and other public places.

    Fewer blacks = fewer crimes committed fewer AA slugs in the workplace and government offices fewer savages attacking teachers and students in schools, safer public transportation, parks and public spaces.

    Instead of obsessing about the fertility of unknown women MEN OF UNZ, have some kids of your own.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    , @Jmaie
    @Rosie


    No. I said preschool academics is useless at best. That doesn’t change the fact that parents have to work. That cannot helped.
     
    So you're agreeing that pre-K isn't about the children...


    And they had to walk ten miles to school, uphill both ways, barefoot in the snow along with their students, right?
     
    No idea where you're getting this from, I'm saying is that teachers' aides weren't a common in some previous time. Which upon re-reading I see is not what you said anyways, mea culpa.

    ...fail to take account of the benefits you get from job-destroying automation and offshoring: cheaper goods. That should help take the edge off that tax increase
     
    This reminds me of the argument that big box stores destroying small business is a boon to the former owners since, while they can no longer afford the things they used to they can at least buy Walmart brand american cheese at a good price.

    does not absolve you of the obligation to provide, in some way or another, for your fellow human beings.
     
    Who claimed otherwise? I recently voted to pass a school bond costing me $750 a year (for 20 years) because it was needed. Doubling that school's staff to make the teacher's jobs easier? A ridiculous suggestion.

    Replies: @Abolish_public_education, @Rosie

  105. @Mike Tre
    @Anon7

    When the lockdowns started a couple years ago, the schools would still hand out free breakfast and lunches to students if they showed up in the parking lots.

    The high schools have daycare centers in the building for the children of students.

    Have of public education is just welfare for minorities.

    Replies: @Anon7

    All true. But pre-K “education” is not just welfare – it’s “starter socialism”.

    The lesson is simple for both men and women; you don’t need to create a stable family, just breed. No marriage, no churches, no culture: the state will take the children and rear them for you. The less competent you are as a parent, the more services will be provided.

    • Thanks: Achmed E. Newman
    • Replies: @Reaper
    @Anon7

    "The less competent you are as a parent, the more services will be provided. "

    Sadly this is very true.
    All modern/ welfare states based on this principle.

    Also it does NOT limited to parents.
    Like workforce: the less capable who get more benefits/ advantage/ programs. Not just cripples, but the ones who are less capable than the average monkey.

    The whole education, health and social system does it.
    That is about pump the less capable with funds/ programs/ quotas while supress/ deprive the ones with merits/ capabalities.

    In an ideal system there would be only benefits/ programs based on merits.
    Like extra funds, extra educational staff for the gifted, like for kids who were able to complete hight school as 8-9 years old, and ready for university level.

    Not for some lowlife who at 10 dull as a rug. Those ones does not deserve extra funds/ teaching assistants/ whatever.

    The only acceptable special needs should be talent care.


    But as a reality in democracies / so called modern states do the opposite: care for the bad, and hold back the better.

    If modern states/ societies would be a supermarket, then the prefered stock is:
    https://media.istockphoto.com/photos/rotting-fruit-and-vegetables-picture-id1139305000?k=20&m=1139305000&s=612x612&w=0&h=UlCYKGtQN97IaKtd3sTtLzxdmMPcwobgqkadS1Qq0Ik=

    While any better quality begone, no need for such stock like this:
    https://www.cdc.gov/foodsafety/images/comms/features/GettyImages-1247930626-500px.jpg

    and off course it called evil, socially unsensitive, inhuman, etc.. just like eugenics.

  106. @Coemgen
    @Rosie

    "Parents ... need ... pre-K?"

    How did the human race ever survive without it?

    Replies: @Rosie

    “Parents … need … pre-K?”

    How did the human race ever survive without it?

    Is this supposed to be a joke or serious commentary? The question isn’t what hunter-gatherer and agrarian parents needed. The question is what post-industrial parents need.

  107. @Art Deco
    @Rosie

    Parents who most need universal pre-K are working-class parents with jobs. You know, most people.

    When you state a 'need', you have an implicit purpose in mind. What purpose is not being achieved without day care subsidies?

    Replies: @Rosie

    When you state a ‘need’, you have an implicit purpose in mind. What purpose is not being achieved without day care subsidies?

    Normal working-class family life.

    See Muse’s comment above, number 93. He is correct. Universal preK, and kindergarten and first grade for that matter, are childcare subsidies. If you have a problem with it, take it up with greedy employers. Otherwise, it just looks like you want to take advantage of cheap goods and services without helping young parents cope with the economic burden of parenthood.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/13/rent-is-going-up-again-heres-why.html

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/apartment-owners-golden-age-primed-to-continue-in-2022-11640091602

    https://qz.com/2101421/rents-in-the-us-are-rising-even-faster-than-home-prices/

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Rosie

    Universal preK, and kindergarten and first grade for that matter, are childcare subsidies.

    I would disagree about 1st grade and (for youths adapted to an accelerated program) kindergarten as well.

    , @Art Deco
    @Rosie

    Normal working-class family life.

    Been available forever without subsidized child care. One issue is that from one generation to the next, people develop a more elaborate understanding of the normal.

    Replies: @Rosie

  108. @Batman
    Think of Universal Pre-K like you think about abortion. It's nothing more than a way for bitchy promiscuous women to escape the consequences of their choices.

    Replies: @Rosie, @Alden

    So enjoy paying taxes to support the welfare babies who should have been aborted to improve the human stock of the nation. And 20 years later enjoy supporting those sweet little baby boys who’ve turned into 80 IQ unemployable criminals and public nuisances.

    Now that abortion is going back to the states, expect a 1960s-80s style crime wave in about 25 years. The states most likely to end abortion will be Texas Louisiana Mississippi Alabama Georgia the Carolinas Tennessee Arkansas all the states with the largest number of dis functional blacks who will reproduce and reproduce.

    And soon the over population of retarded criminal useless blacks will start marching west and north. As they did 100 years ago.

    Typical MAN OF UNZ 0-2 White children 2 at most. Well, we’ve got 8 White grandchildren and we’re looking out for their welfare. Which includes not making it possible for more black predators to breed.

    • Replies: @Batman
    @Alden


    So enjoy paying taxes to support the welfare babies who should have been aborted to improve the human stock of the nation. And 20 years later enjoy supporting those sweet little baby boys who’ve turned into 80 IQ unemployable criminals and public nuisances.
     
    False dichotomy. Choices are not limited to abortion or fullbore socialism. The third option is responsibly. My state throws deadbeat dads who don't pay child support in jail. If we started doing that to welfare queen mamas, the market cap of Trojan Condoms will eclipse Apple.
  109. @Rosie
    @Art Deco


    When you state a ‘need’, you have an implicit purpose in mind. What purpose is not being achieved without day care subsidies?
     
    Normal working-class family life.

    https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2013/05/SDT-2013-05-fertility-education-02.png

    See Muse's comment above, number 93. He is correct. Universal preK, and kindergarten and first grade for that matter, are childcare subsidies. If you have a problem with it, take it up with greedy employers. Otherwise, it just looks like you want to take advantage of cheap goods and services without helping young parents cope with the economic burden of parenthood.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/13/rent-is-going-up-again-heres-why.html

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/apartment-owners-golden-age-primed-to-continue-in-2022-11640091602

    https://qz.com/2101421/rents-in-the-us-are-rising-even-faster-than-home-prices/

    Replies: @Art Deco, @Art Deco

    Universal preK, and kindergarten and first grade for that matter, are childcare subsidies.

    I would disagree about 1st grade and (for youths adapted to an accelerated program) kindergarten as well.

  110. @Rosie
    @Art Deco


    When you state a ‘need’, you have an implicit purpose in mind. What purpose is not being achieved without day care subsidies?
     
    Normal working-class family life.

    https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2013/05/SDT-2013-05-fertility-education-02.png

    See Muse's comment above, number 93. He is correct. Universal preK, and kindergarten and first grade for that matter, are childcare subsidies. If you have a problem with it, take it up with greedy employers. Otherwise, it just looks like you want to take advantage of cheap goods and services without helping young parents cope with the economic burden of parenthood.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/13/rent-is-going-up-again-heres-why.html

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/apartment-owners-golden-age-primed-to-continue-in-2022-11640091602

    https://qz.com/2101421/rents-in-the-us-are-rising-even-faster-than-home-prices/

    Replies: @Art Deco, @Art Deco

    Normal working-class family life.

    Been available forever without subsidized child care. One issue is that from one generation to the next, people develop a more elaborate understanding of the normal.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    @Art Deco


    Normal working-class family life.

    Been available forever without subsidized child care. One issue is that from one generation to the next, people develop a more elaborate understanding of the normal.
     
    Are you seriously going to take the position that deindustrialization and immigration haven't disrupted American family life? Just how badly would the oligarchs have to fuck over Joe and Jane Sixpack for you to acknowledge that childcare assistance is due them in meager return for having their country sold-out from under them?

    For that matter, even if you are correct that people's conception of what is normal changes over time, that is not entirely a matter of individual choice. It's not young couples' fault that restrictive covenants and building codes are designed around much smaller populations with rising wages. If you buy a house that was built 30 years ago, you're going to pay more for it, and you're going to have extra maintenance expenses.

    Replies: @Art Deco

  111. @Rosie
    @Jmaie


    So you agree, universal pre-K isn’t actually about the children.
     
    No. I said preschool academics is useless at best. That doesn't change the fact that parents have to work. That cannot helped. Children will likely a better experience in pre-school than some random neighbor's house.

    As to teacher’s aides, never in 12 years was there one in any of my classrooms.
     
    And they had to walk ten miles to school, uphill both ways, barefoot in the snow along with their students, right?

    As to teacher’s aides, never in 12 years was there one in any of my classrooms. But let’s consider the idea – would make the teacher’s life easier to be sure, all it would take was for all of us home owners to pony up few thousand extra in property taxes every year. Who wouldn’t be up for that?
     
    The fundamental problem with this line of reasoning is that you fail to take account of the benefits you get from job-destroying automation and offshoring: cheaper goods. That should help take the edge off that tax increase. That you happen to have survived the ravages of these things, maybe even as a result of your own merits, does not absolve you of the obligation to provide, in some way or another, for your fellow human beings. You are not entitled to retain all of the benefits of greater productivity for yourself. If you disagree with me, what do you think should be done with all these displaced working-class people?

    https://thefablesoup.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/maxresdefault.jpg

    Replies: @Alden, @Jmaie

    It’s always a good idea Rosie, to remember the average of a Man of UNZ is about 80-85. They all grew up in the working class paradise of the early 1950s when even men dishwashers could afford to support a stay at home wife to care for the kids.

    The MEN OF UNZ still believe that the only reason married women with small children work is to show solidarity with the feminazi movement. Not to help provide basic necessities like shelter food and winter heat for kids and spouses.

    The capitalist pig economy of low wages high cost of living and a constantly increasing supply of “ the vast army of the unemployed” has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that mothers have to either work or go on welfare.

    The MEN OF UNZ tend to be anti worker anti decent wages anti labor union. Even though most are or were employees themselves. That’s conservatives. Anti mothers working but pro low wages for the fathers. And by being anti abortion, advocating for the production of more black and Hispanic criminals and welfare slugs.

    Truly a strange crew, conservatives. Anti mothers working but anti a living family wage for the fathers. Anti black criminals, useless AA government worker and general nuisance blacks wandering business districts. But strongly advocating for more production of more useless destructive blacks.

    Conservatives are too stupid to understand these facts.

    More blacks = more crime more AA workers more dangerous schools dumber teachers, nastier public transit parks and other public places.

    Fewer blacks = fewer crimes committed fewer AA slugs in the workplace and government offices fewer savages attacking teachers and students in schools, safer public transportation, parks and public spaces.

    Instead of obsessing about the fertility of unknown women MEN OF UNZ, have some kids of your own.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @Alden


    Instead of obsessing about the fertility of unknown women MEN OF UNZ, have some kids of your own.
     
    At 82 1/2 years old? OK, but please show me how to use Tinder, young lady.
  112. @Old Prude
    @Rob

    And then you woke up...And your pants were wet...

    Replies: @Rob

    Are my pants wet because i peed them? I’m really hoping that’s why.

  113. @Rosie
    @Jmaie


    So you agree, universal pre-K isn’t actually about the children.
     
    No. I said preschool academics is useless at best. That doesn't change the fact that parents have to work. That cannot helped. Children will likely a better experience in pre-school than some random neighbor's house.

    As to teacher’s aides, never in 12 years was there one in any of my classrooms.
     
    And they had to walk ten miles to school, uphill both ways, barefoot in the snow along with their students, right?

    As to teacher’s aides, never in 12 years was there one in any of my classrooms. But let’s consider the idea – would make the teacher’s life easier to be sure, all it would take was for all of us home owners to pony up few thousand extra in property taxes every year. Who wouldn’t be up for that?
     
    The fundamental problem with this line of reasoning is that you fail to take account of the benefits you get from job-destroying automation and offshoring: cheaper goods. That should help take the edge off that tax increase. That you happen to have survived the ravages of these things, maybe even as a result of your own merits, does not absolve you of the obligation to provide, in some way or another, for your fellow human beings. You are not entitled to retain all of the benefits of greater productivity for yourself. If you disagree with me, what do you think should be done with all these displaced working-class people?

    https://thefablesoup.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/maxresdefault.jpg

    Replies: @Alden, @Jmaie

    No. I said preschool academics is useless at best. That doesn’t change the fact that parents have to work. That cannot helped.

    So you’re agreeing that pre-K isn’t about the children…

    And they had to walk ten miles to school, uphill both ways, barefoot in the snow along with their students, right?

    No idea where you’re getting this from, I’m saying is that teachers’ aides weren’t a common in some previous time. Which upon re-reading I see is not what you said anyways, mea culpa.

    …fail to take account of the benefits you get from job-destroying automation and offshoring: cheaper goods. That should help take the edge off that tax increase

    This reminds me of the argument that big box stores destroying small business is a boon to the former owners since, while they can no longer afford the things they used to they can at least buy Walmart brand american cheese at a good price.

    does not absolve you of the obligation to provide, in some way or another, for your fellow human beings.

    Who claimed otherwise? I recently voted to pass a school bond costing me \$750 a year (for 20 years) because it was needed. Doubling that school’s staff to make the teacher’s jobs easier? A ridiculous suggestion.

    • Replies: @Abolish_public_education
    @Jmaie

    I recently voted to pass a school bond costing me $750 a year (for 20 years) because it was needed.

    Figure the cost is 75¢ per $1,000 of valuation. That means your house is currently assessed at $1,000,000. (Your annual levy is ~$10,000, of which $3K+ already goes to the schools). You must be a lunatic. Your voting license needs to be lifted in that mental cases, and other deficients, are disqualified

    ~25% of those who voted said (correctly) that it was NOT needed. Tell us which district, and I'll tell you how bad it is and how it's only going to get WORSE; but you should have asked an opponent of the measure before you voted.

    Replies: @Jmaie

    , @Rosie
    @Jmaie


    So you’re agreeing that pre-K isn’t about the children…

     

    No. I said there are no academic benefits to preschool academics. I didn't say there were no benefits to preschool.

    This reminds me of the argument that big box stores destroying small business is a boon to the former owners since, while they can no longer afford the things they used to they can at least buy Walmart brand american cheese at a good price.
     
    None of this shit was my idea. All I'm saying is that UMC have no call to cry about higher taxes when they laughed along with Cartman about the destruction of working-class livelihoods.

    https://youtu.be/toL1tXrLA1c

    Who claimed otherwise? I recently voted to pass a school bond costing me $750 a year (for 20 years) because it was needed. Doubling that school’s staff to make the teacher’s jobs easier? A ridiculous suggestion.
     
    Fair enough.
  114. @Jmaie
    @Rosie


    Apart from that, it’s not at all clear that the fact that previous generations of teachers did without aides means that it is pointless to have aides, even setting aside the question of discipline. I’m sure that, if you asked them, they would say they could have used another pair of hands.
     
    I started school mid-sixties, when physical discipline was still allowed. My school had a policy, if you were sent to see the principal once you got a warning and the second time a swat. After my third swat, in the first grade, I decided I didn't care for it and stopped farting around. This is why I still remember my principal's name (Mr. Sandberg) when I can't remember what I had for dinner night before last.

    As to teacher's aides, never in 12 years was there one in any of my classrooms. But let's consider the idea - would make the teacher's life easier to be sure, all it would take was for all of us home owners to pony up few thousand extra in property taxes every year. Who wouldn't be up for that?

    Replies: @mmack

    “As to teacher’s aides, never in 12 years was there one in any of my classrooms. But let’s consider the idea – would make the teacher’s life easier to be sure, all it would take was for all of us home owners to pony up few thousand extra in property taxes every year. Who wouldn’t be up for that?”

    I started school roughly a decade after you. We started getting student teachers in my grade school (K-6) roughly about 4th or 5th grade. If there were “teacher’s aides”, they were usually women who volunteered from the community.

    Fast forward to the 2000s. My best friend bought his parent’s house, the same house he grew up in, and moved his family in. Since the school districts are the same as when we went to school, his daughter is going and will go to the same grade school / junior high / high school that we both went to.

    Once his daughter started grade school he told me the number of kids per class is roughly the same as when we attended school. (Some classes less, some classes more), but there is now one teacher and TWO full time teacher’s aides in the same classroom that only needed one teacher when we were students there.

    Being Silly-nois, property taxes are through the roof to pay for this, and underfunded pensions.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    @mmack


    Once his daughter started grade school he told me the number of kids per class is roughly the same as when we attended school. (Some classes less, some classes more), but there is now one teacher and TWO full time teacher’s aides in the same classroom that only needed one teacher when we were students there.
     
    Some of this has to do with mainstreaming. Kids with disabilities always impose extra costs. The difference is that those costs are more visible with mainstreaming than they are when these kids are educated separately. One can debate the merits of mainstreaming, but you're not making an accurate comparison if you don't take account of it.

    Kids with disabilities are entitled to a free, appropriate public education. If you want to go and make an issue of that and say that kids with disabilities are not entitled to a free, appropriate public education, good luck with that.

    Replies: @mmack

  115. @Jim Don Bob
    @Cato

    A study done 20+ years ago showed that the effects of Head Start were gone by third grade, so Congress doubled its budget. It's a jobs program for Ds dressed up as helping the poor.

    Replies: @Rooster12

    It’s wealth redistribution, just like every other program “they” come up with. So now we don’t only need to pay for our children, we get to pay for everyone else’s too!

  116. @Art Deco
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    The only dame on the program in that era was 'Susan', a black woman with passable looks. Her smile wasn't oddly compelling.

    Replies: @The Germ Theory of Disease

    “The only dame on the program in that era was ‘Susan’”

    There were people on Sesame Street? You mean to say you were paying attention to the people?

    I’ll bet you don’t even know when Wanda the Witch washes her wig.

  117. I used to live near a private, daycare center. “Parents” would dropoff/pickup their kids on the way [I presume] to/from work, e.g. before/after 8:00/6:00. During the day, the kids would entertain themselves in the yard, behind a chain-link fence. Sometimes I would see their long faces, looking through the fence. Mind reading: “When’s mommy going to get here?” It reminded me of those sad, pet rescue, TV commercials.

    Let’s hear from those now-adults.

  118. @Art Deco
    @Rosie

    Normal working-class family life.

    Been available forever without subsidized child care. One issue is that from one generation to the next, people develop a more elaborate understanding of the normal.

    Replies: @Rosie

    Normal working-class family life.

    Been available forever without subsidized child care. One issue is that from one generation to the next, people develop a more elaborate understanding of the normal.

    Are you seriously going to take the position that deindustrialization and immigration haven’t disrupted American family life? Just how badly would the oligarchs have to fuck over Joe and Jane Sixpack for you to acknowledge that childcare assistance is due them in meager return for having their country sold-out from under them?

    For that matter, even if you are correct that people’s conception of what is normal changes over time, that is not entirely a matter of individual choice. It’s not young couples’ fault that restrictive covenants and building codes are designed around much smaller populations with rising wages. If you buy a house that was built 30 years ago, you’re going to pay more for it, and you’re going to have extra maintenance expenses.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Rosie

    Are you seriously going to take the position that deindustrialization and immigration haven’t disrupted American family life?

    I'm going to take the position that the wage earning population has a higher real income now than it did in 1958.

    Replies: @Rosie

  119. @Rosie
    @Art Deco


    Normal working-class family life.

    Been available forever without subsidized child care. One issue is that from one generation to the next, people develop a more elaborate understanding of the normal.
     
    Are you seriously going to take the position that deindustrialization and immigration haven't disrupted American family life? Just how badly would the oligarchs have to fuck over Joe and Jane Sixpack for you to acknowledge that childcare assistance is due them in meager return for having their country sold-out from under them?

    For that matter, even if you are correct that people's conception of what is normal changes over time, that is not entirely a matter of individual choice. It's not young couples' fault that restrictive covenants and building codes are designed around much smaller populations with rising wages. If you buy a house that was built 30 years ago, you're going to pay more for it, and you're going to have extra maintenance expenses.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    Are you seriously going to take the position that deindustrialization and immigration haven’t disrupted American family life?

    I’m going to take the position that the wage earning population has a higher real income now than it did in 1958.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    @Art Deco


    I’m going to take the position that the wage earning population has a higher real income now than it did in 1958.
     
    Nonsense.

    Replies: @Art Deco

  120. @J.Ross
    @Alrenous

    Is it this?
    https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/freedom-learn/201406/survey-grown-unschoolers-i-overview-findings

    Replies: @Alrenous

  121. @Art Deco
    @Rosie

    Are you seriously going to take the position that deindustrialization and immigration haven’t disrupted American family life?

    I'm going to take the position that the wage earning population has a higher real income now than it did in 1958.

    Replies: @Rosie

    I’m going to take the position that the wage earning population has a higher real income now than it did in 1958.

    Nonsense.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Rosie

    Nonsense.

    Well, national income accounting is something with which you're not familiar. Maybe quit talking out of your ass.

    Replies: @Rosie

  122. @Rosie
    @Art Deco


    I’m going to take the position that the wage earning population has a higher real income now than it did in 1958.
     
    Nonsense.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    Nonsense.

    Well, national income accounting is something with which you’re not familiar. Maybe quit talking out of your ass.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    @Art Deco


    Well, national income accounting is something with which you’re not familiar. Maybe quit talking out of your ass.
     
    Real life accounting is something with which you're not familiar. Maybe quit talking out of your ass.

    Let me explain:

    https://res.cloudinary.com/apartmentlist/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto,t_renter_life_cover/https://images.ctfassets.net/jeox55pd4d8n/7nuZeXPH3wZl57MzbhB2UI/c59c18165cc805f76d6e508693f344b4/images_How_Have_Rents_Changed_Since_1960__rej5gh.jpg

    https://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/23/how-much-housing-prices-have-risen-since-1940.html

    Replies: @Art Deco

  123. @Jmaie
    @Rosie


    No. I said preschool academics is useless at best. That doesn’t change the fact that parents have to work. That cannot helped.
     
    So you're agreeing that pre-K isn't about the children...


    And they had to walk ten miles to school, uphill both ways, barefoot in the snow along with their students, right?
     
    No idea where you're getting this from, I'm saying is that teachers' aides weren't a common in some previous time. Which upon re-reading I see is not what you said anyways, mea culpa.

    ...fail to take account of the benefits you get from job-destroying automation and offshoring: cheaper goods. That should help take the edge off that tax increase
     
    This reminds me of the argument that big box stores destroying small business is a boon to the former owners since, while they can no longer afford the things they used to they can at least buy Walmart brand american cheese at a good price.

    does not absolve you of the obligation to provide, in some way or another, for your fellow human beings.
     
    Who claimed otherwise? I recently voted to pass a school bond costing me $750 a year (for 20 years) because it was needed. Doubling that school's staff to make the teacher's jobs easier? A ridiculous suggestion.

    Replies: @Abolish_public_education, @Rosie

    I recently voted to pass a school bond costing me \$750 a year (for 20 years) because it was needed.

    Figure the cost is 75¢ per \$1,000 of valuation. That means your house is currently assessed at \$1,000,000. (Your annual levy is ~\$10,000, of which \$3K+ already goes to the schools). You must be a lunatic. Your voting license needs to be lifted in that mental cases, and other deficients, are disqualified

    ~25% of those who voted said (correctly) that it was NOT needed. Tell us which district, and I’ll tell you how bad it is and how it’s only going to get WORSE; but you should have asked an opponent of the measure before you voted.

    • Replies: @Jmaie
    @Abolish_public_education


    Figure the cost is 75¢ per $1,000 of valuation. That means your house is currently assessed at $1,000,000. (Your annual levy is ~$10,000, of which $3K+ already goes to the schools). You must be a lunatic
     
    .

    Hilarious. Your various estimations are incorrect, you've zero knowledge of the local situation**, and you're saying that 75% of the voters were so obviously wrong as to question our sanity. Must be quite the burden being omniscient and yet having to put up with the great unwashed...

    **school old enough that we were legally required to upgrade the building, refurbishment would have saved 20% of the total cost but then we'd still have had a poorly designed 50 year old building and the students would have spent two years in portables taking up the entire outside play area.
  124. @Art Deco
    @Rosie

    Nonsense.

    Well, national income accounting is something with which you're not familiar. Maybe quit talking out of your ass.

    Replies: @Rosie

    Well, national income accounting is something with which you’re not familiar. Maybe quit talking out of your ass.

    Real life accounting is something with which you’re not familiar. Maybe quit talking out of your ass.

    Let me explain:

    https://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/23/how-much-housing-prices-have-risen-since-1940.html

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Rosie

    Real life accounting is something with which you’re not familiar.

    I'm quite familiar with it. You've presented me with a dubious graph on housing costs. About 80% of people personal consumption expenditures are on goods and services other than housing.

  125. @Jmaie
    @Rosie


    No. I said preschool academics is useless at best. That doesn’t change the fact that parents have to work. That cannot helped.
     
    So you're agreeing that pre-K isn't about the children...


    And they had to walk ten miles to school, uphill both ways, barefoot in the snow along with their students, right?
     
    No idea where you're getting this from, I'm saying is that teachers' aides weren't a common in some previous time. Which upon re-reading I see is not what you said anyways, mea culpa.

    ...fail to take account of the benefits you get from job-destroying automation and offshoring: cheaper goods. That should help take the edge off that tax increase
     
    This reminds me of the argument that big box stores destroying small business is a boon to the former owners since, while they can no longer afford the things they used to they can at least buy Walmart brand american cheese at a good price.

    does not absolve you of the obligation to provide, in some way or another, for your fellow human beings.
     
    Who claimed otherwise? I recently voted to pass a school bond costing me $750 a year (for 20 years) because it was needed. Doubling that school's staff to make the teacher's jobs easier? A ridiculous suggestion.

    Replies: @Abolish_public_education, @Rosie

    So you’re agreeing that pre-K isn’t about the children…

    No. I said there are no academic benefits to preschool academics. I didn’t say there were no benefits to preschool.

    This reminds me of the argument that big box stores destroying small business is a boon to the former owners since, while they can no longer afford the things they used to they can at least buy Walmart brand american cheese at a good price.

    None of this shit was my idea. All I’m saying is that UMC have no call to cry about higher taxes when they laughed along with Cartman about the destruction of working-class livelihoods.

    Who claimed otherwise? I recently voted to pass a school bond costing me \$750 a year (for 20 years) because it was needed. Doubling that school’s staff to make the teacher’s jobs easier? A ridiculous suggestion.

    Fair enough.

  126. @Rosie
    @Art Deco


    Well, national income accounting is something with which you’re not familiar. Maybe quit talking out of your ass.
     
    Real life accounting is something with which you're not familiar. Maybe quit talking out of your ass.

    Let me explain:

    https://res.cloudinary.com/apartmentlist/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto,t_renter_life_cover/https://images.ctfassets.net/jeox55pd4d8n/7nuZeXPH3wZl57MzbhB2UI/c59c18165cc805f76d6e508693f344b4/images_How_Have_Rents_Changed_Since_1960__rej5gh.jpg

    https://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/23/how-much-housing-prices-have-risen-since-1940.html

    Replies: @Art Deco

    Real life accounting is something with which you’re not familiar.

    I’m quite familiar with it. You’ve presented me with a dubious graph on housing costs. About 80% of people personal consumption expenditures are on goods and services other than housing.

  127. @mmack
    @Jmaie

    "As to teacher’s aides, never in 12 years was there one in any of my classrooms. But let’s consider the idea – would make the teacher’s life easier to be sure, all it would take was for all of us home owners to pony up few thousand extra in property taxes every year. Who wouldn’t be up for that?"

    I started school roughly a decade after you. We started getting student teachers in my grade school (K-6) roughly about 4th or 5th grade. If there were "teacher's aides", they were usually women who volunteered from the community.

    Fast forward to the 2000s. My best friend bought his parent's house, the same house he grew up in, and moved his family in. Since the school districts are the same as when we went to school, his daughter is going and will go to the same grade school / junior high / high school that we both went to.

    Once his daughter started grade school he told me the number of kids per class is roughly the same as when we attended school. (Some classes less, some classes more), but there is now one teacher and TWO full time teacher's aides in the same classroom that only needed one teacher when we were students there.

    Being Silly-nois, property taxes are through the roof to pay for this, and underfunded pensions.

    Replies: @Rosie

    Once his daughter started grade school he told me the number of kids per class is roughly the same as when we attended school. (Some classes less, some classes more), but there is now one teacher and TWO full time teacher’s aides in the same classroom that only needed one teacher when we were students there.

    Some of this has to do with mainstreaming. Kids with disabilities always impose extra costs. The difference is that those costs are more visible with mainstreaming than they are when these kids are educated separately. One can debate the merits of mainstreaming, but you’re not making an accurate comparison if you don’t take account of it.

    Kids with disabilities are entitled to a free, appropriate public education. If you want to go and make an issue of that and say that kids with disabilities are not entitled to a free, appropriate public education, good luck with that.

    • Replies: @mmack
    @Rosie

    Rosie,

    I really don't care if Steve bans me. But frankly, thank you for being a perfect example of a complete and utter idiot. And a typical woman. Don't you think you ought to shut up, fix your husband dinner, watch your grandchildren, and leave us alone?

    "Kids with disabilities are entitled to a free, appropriate public education. If you want to go and make an issue of that and say that kids with disabilities are not entitled to a free, appropriate public education, good luck with that."

    Not with the kids that can actually learn something, no they can't.

    Replies: @Rosie

  128. I’m quite familiar with it. You’ve presented me with a dubious graph on housing costs. About 80% of people personal consumption expenditures are on goods and services other than housing.

    Please get a grip.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/how-much-rent-afford-2017-6

    The average American spends 37% of their take-home pay on housing. And we’re not talking about the average American, anyway. The housing expenditures of the “average American” include boomers who paid like 10K for their house that’s “worth” 200K now. We’re talking about millennial and younger who have small children and are struggling with outrageous house prices and rents and sometimes mortgage-sized student loans to boot. Nobody GAF that clothes and phones are cheaper now. Of course, all this shit falls harder on young Whites,who obviously don’t feel comfortable living in (ahem) “affordable” neighborhoods.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Rosie

    The average American spends 37% of their take-home pay on housing.

    Courtesy the Bureau of Economic Analysis, data from 2019

    Total personal income: $18,424 bn
    Total personal consumption expenditure $14,428 (78% of personal income)
    Total expenditure, housing and utilities: $2,571
    (18% of personal consumption, 14% of personal income)

    , @Art Deco
    @Rosie

    While we're at it, per the Bureau of Economic Analysis:


    Total Employee Compensation (nominal)

    1958: $264.7 bn
    2019: $11,448 bn


    Price Indices for Personal Consumption Expenditure

    1958: 15.93
    2019: 109.22


    Per the Bureau of Labor Statistics:

    Employed persons:

    1958 June: 62.7 million
    2019 June: 157.1 million


    Mean annual employee compensation per worker (nominal):

    1958: $4,220
    2019: $72,870


    Mean annual employee compensation per worker (real, 2019 prices)

    1958: $28,940
    2019: $72,870

    Replies: @Rosie

  129. @Rosie
    @mmack


    Once his daughter started grade school he told me the number of kids per class is roughly the same as when we attended school. (Some classes less, some classes more), but there is now one teacher and TWO full time teacher’s aides in the same classroom that only needed one teacher when we were students there.
     
    Some of this has to do with mainstreaming. Kids with disabilities always impose extra costs. The difference is that those costs are more visible with mainstreaming than they are when these kids are educated separately. One can debate the merits of mainstreaming, but you're not making an accurate comparison if you don't take account of it.

    Kids with disabilities are entitled to a free, appropriate public education. If you want to go and make an issue of that and say that kids with disabilities are not entitled to a free, appropriate public education, good luck with that.

    Replies: @mmack

    Rosie,

    I really don’t care if Steve bans me. But frankly, thank you for being a perfect example of a complete and utter idiot. And a typical woman. Don’t you think you ought to shut up, fix your husband dinner, watch your grandchildren, and leave us alone?

    “Kids with disabilities are entitled to a free, appropriate public education. If you want to go and make an issue of that and say that kids with disabilities are not entitled to a free, appropriate public education, good luck with that.”

    Not with the kids that can actually learn something, no they can’t.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    @mmack


    I really don’t care if Steve bans me. But frankly, thank you for being a perfect example of a complete and utter idiot. And a typical woman. Don’t you think you ought to shut up, fix your husband dinner, watch your grandchildren, and leave us alone?
     
    I assure you, I have much better things to do than sit here and babysit the likes of you, and I'll make you the same offer I have made every other pig I've encountered: Clear out of White Advocacy and go back to your manosphere ghetto and I'll leave you to it.
  130. Back around 1990, the Los Angeles school district had “teaching assistants”, all of which were college students taking education classes, that is, prospective teachers. One of them, a Miss Cookie Pacheco, a Jewish-Mexican hybrid, organized a series of demonstrations, including disrupting school board meetings. A real gem of a public servant, to be sure. The goal of the demos was to drop the college student requirement and turn the teaching assistants into lifetime part-time employees. And so it was done, screwing prospective teachers out of work and putting Cookie Pacheco and her ilk on the gravy train for life.

  131. @pyrrhus
    Pre-k is a way to discipline children from age 3 on not to question authority or the narrative..It is worthless as education, because you can't teach children anything until they are developmentally ready for it, and the attempt can be harmful...I have taught hundreds of children, and you can't force the process...

    Replies: @Reaper

    “Pre-k is a way to discipline children from age 3”

    Disagree.
    Exactly the opposite: they learn can do as they wish as all adults around them lack both competence in education (especially discipline) and intent to do any such thing.
    From the kid`s side: hysterical behavior is totally effective, complains even more so, wrongdoings have no consequence there are no punisment but there are rights. Yes they learn it very well.

    Education is non-existent, any sort of knowledge unknown. Expectations are forbidden.

    So very well if you want that your kid never know any bundaries, limits, prohibitions, expectations and to get an early experience about “education” or “school” is not about knowledge but to spend time with interactive playful activities then pre-school is your best choice.

    That is the “normal” average pre-school both in Western Europe and in all Anglo-Saxon systems.

    There are very few talent pre-schools where kids get real knowledge and proper training, like learn to read at 3, write in 4-5 and learn basic science with gamification but that sort of institutes are very rare, expensive (with reason) and never heard even one state-funded.

    So pre-school CAN be very beneficial but ONLY in a totally different system.
    Right now pre-school together with the whole public education system is a cancer in any western society because of the ways: how it is operated/ what it does/ who allowed to “teach” their with who`s supervision.

  132. @Rosie

    I’m quite familiar with it. You’ve presented me with a dubious graph on housing costs. About 80% of people personal consumption expenditures are on goods and services other than housing.
     
    Please get a grip.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/how-much-rent-afford-2017-6

    The average American spends 37% of their take-home pay on housing. And we're not talking about the average American, anyway. The housing expenditures of the "average American" include boomers who paid like 10K for their house that's "worth" 200K now. We're talking about millennial and younger who have small children and are struggling with outrageous house prices and rents and sometimes mortgage-sized student loans to boot. Nobody GAF that clothes and phones are cheaper now. Of course, all this shit falls harder on young Whites,who obviously don't feel comfortable living in (ahem) "affordable" neighborhoods.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @Art Deco

    The average American spends 37% of their take-home pay on housing.

    Courtesy the Bureau of Economic Analysis, data from 2019

    Total personal income: \$18,424 bn
    Total personal consumption expenditure \$14,428 (78% of personal income)
    Total expenditure, housing and utilities: \$2,571
    (18% of personal consumption, 14% of personal income)

  133. @Rosie

    I’m quite familiar with it. You’ve presented me with a dubious graph on housing costs. About 80% of people personal consumption expenditures are on goods and services other than housing.
     
    Please get a grip.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/how-much-rent-afford-2017-6

    The average American spends 37% of their take-home pay on housing. And we're not talking about the average American, anyway. The housing expenditures of the "average American" include boomers who paid like 10K for their house that's "worth" 200K now. We're talking about millennial and younger who have small children and are struggling with outrageous house prices and rents and sometimes mortgage-sized student loans to boot. Nobody GAF that clothes and phones are cheaper now. Of course, all this shit falls harder on young Whites,who obviously don't feel comfortable living in (ahem) "affordable" neighborhoods.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @Art Deco

    While we’re at it, per the Bureau of Economic Analysis:

    Total Employee Compensation (nominal)

    1958: \$264.7 bn
    2019: \$11,448 bn

    Price Indices for Personal Consumption Expenditure

    1958: 15.93
    2019: 109.22

    Per the Bureau of Labor Statistics:

    Employed persons:

    1958 June: 62.7 million
    2019 June: 157.1 million

    Mean annual employee compensation per worker (nominal):

    1958: \$4,220
    2019: \$72,870

    Mean annual employee compensation per worker (real, 2019 prices)

    1958: \$28,940
    2019: \$72,870

    • Replies: @Rosie
    @Art Deco


    Mean annual employee compensation per worker (real, 2019 prices)

    1958: $28,940
    2019: $72,870
     
    Nobody cares about "real" wage statistics that don't take account of housing proces. I told you, nobody gives a shit that they can buy more shiny gadgets than their parents. It is the cost of housing in a safe neighborhood with decent schools where they nor their children will get the stink eye every time they walk out the front door and quite possibly get the life beat out of them for the color of their skin.

    Courtesy the Bureau of Economic Analysis, data from 2019

    Total personal income: $18,424 bn
    Total personal consumption expenditure $14,428 (78% of personal income)
    Total expenditure, housing and utilities: $2,571
    (18% of personal consumption, 14% of personal income)
     
    The housing expenditures you list include boomers with paid off houses, Section 8 tenants, empty nesters living on Social Security in cheap, jobless rust belt towns, retirees collecting on a reverse mortgage, immigrants living 5 families to a house, affirmative action blacks and Hispanics living in cheap ethnic neighborhoods, etc. The relevant question is this: What is the experience of middling Whites who are of an age to have children in preschool?

    I repeat, Americans are paying over 30% of their pretax income on housing, even in the top quintile. It goes up from there.

    https://www.bls.gov/news.release/cesmy.nr0.htm

    Replies: @Art Deco

  134. @Alden
    @Rosie

    It’s always a good idea Rosie, to remember the average of a Man of UNZ is about 80-85. They all grew up in the working class paradise of the early 1950s when even men dishwashers could afford to support a stay at home wife to care for the kids.

    The MEN OF UNZ still believe that the only reason married women with small children work is to show solidarity with the feminazi movement. Not to help provide basic necessities like shelter food and winter heat for kids and spouses.

    The capitalist pig economy of low wages high cost of living and a constantly increasing supply of “ the vast army of the unemployed” has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that mothers have to either work or go on welfare.

    The MEN OF UNZ tend to be anti worker anti decent wages anti labor union. Even though most are or were employees themselves. That’s conservatives. Anti mothers working but pro low wages for the fathers. And by being anti abortion, advocating for the production of more black and Hispanic criminals and welfare slugs.

    Truly a strange crew, conservatives. Anti mothers working but anti a living family wage for the fathers. Anti black criminals, useless AA government worker and general nuisance blacks wandering business districts. But strongly advocating for more production of more useless destructive blacks.

    Conservatives are too stupid to understand these facts.

    More blacks = more crime more AA workers more dangerous schools dumber teachers, nastier public transit parks and other public places.

    Fewer blacks = fewer crimes committed fewer AA slugs in the workplace and government offices fewer savages attacking teachers and students in schools, safer public transportation, parks and public spaces.

    Instead of obsessing about the fertility of unknown women MEN OF UNZ, have some kids of your own.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    Instead of obsessing about the fertility of unknown women MEN OF UNZ, have some kids of your own.

    At 82 1/2 years old? OK, but please show me how to use Tinder, young lady.

  135. @Art Deco
    @Rosie

    While we're at it, per the Bureau of Economic Analysis:


    Total Employee Compensation (nominal)

    1958: $264.7 bn
    2019: $11,448 bn


    Price Indices for Personal Consumption Expenditure

    1958: 15.93
    2019: 109.22


    Per the Bureau of Labor Statistics:

    Employed persons:

    1958 June: 62.7 million
    2019 June: 157.1 million


    Mean annual employee compensation per worker (nominal):

    1958: $4,220
    2019: $72,870


    Mean annual employee compensation per worker (real, 2019 prices)

    1958: $28,940
    2019: $72,870

    Replies: @Rosie

    Mean annual employee compensation per worker (real, 2019 prices)

    1958: \$28,940
    2019: \$72,870

    Nobody cares about “real” wage statistics that don’t take account of housing proces. I told you, nobody gives a shit that they can buy more shiny gadgets than their parents. It is the cost of housing in a safe neighborhood with decent schools where they nor their children will get the stink eye every time they walk out the front door and quite possibly get the life beat out of them for the color of their skin.

    Courtesy the Bureau of Economic Analysis, data from 2019

    Total personal income: \$18,424 bn
    Total personal consumption expenditure \$14,428 (78% of personal income)
    Total expenditure, housing and utilities: \$2,571
    (18% of personal consumption, 14% of personal income)

    The housing expenditures you list include boomers with paid off houses, Section 8 tenants, empty nesters living on Social Security in cheap, jobless rust belt towns, retirees collecting on a reverse mortgage, immigrants living 5 families to a house, affirmative action blacks and Hispanics living in cheap ethnic neighborhoods, etc. The relevant question is this: What is the experience of middling Whites who are of an age to have children in preschool?

    I repeat, Americans are paying over 30% of their pretax income on housing, even in the top quintile. It goes up from there.

    https://www.bls.gov/news.release/cesmy.nr0.htm

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Rosie

    Nobody cares about “real” wage statistics that don’t take account of housing proces.

    Except the price indices in question do take account of it. And you're not in a position to say what informed people care about.

    Replies: @Rosie

  136. @mmack
    @Rosie

    Rosie,

    I really don't care if Steve bans me. But frankly, thank you for being a perfect example of a complete and utter idiot. And a typical woman. Don't you think you ought to shut up, fix your husband dinner, watch your grandchildren, and leave us alone?

    "Kids with disabilities are entitled to a free, appropriate public education. If you want to go and make an issue of that and say that kids with disabilities are not entitled to a free, appropriate public education, good luck with that."

    Not with the kids that can actually learn something, no they can't.

    Replies: @Rosie

    I really don’t care if Steve bans me. But frankly, thank you for being a perfect example of a complete and utter idiot. And a typical woman. Don’t you think you ought to shut up, fix your husband dinner, watch your grandchildren, and leave us alone?

    I assure you, I have much better things to do than sit here and babysit the likes of you, and I’ll make you the same offer I have made every other pig I’ve encountered: Clear out of White Advocacy and go back to your manosphere ghetto and I’ll leave you to it.

  137. @Rosie
    @Art Deco


    Mean annual employee compensation per worker (real, 2019 prices)

    1958: $28,940
    2019: $72,870
     
    Nobody cares about "real" wage statistics that don't take account of housing proces. I told you, nobody gives a shit that they can buy more shiny gadgets than their parents. It is the cost of housing in a safe neighborhood with decent schools where they nor their children will get the stink eye every time they walk out the front door and quite possibly get the life beat out of them for the color of their skin.

    Courtesy the Bureau of Economic Analysis, data from 2019

    Total personal income: $18,424 bn
    Total personal consumption expenditure $14,428 (78% of personal income)
    Total expenditure, housing and utilities: $2,571
    (18% of personal consumption, 14% of personal income)
     
    The housing expenditures you list include boomers with paid off houses, Section 8 tenants, empty nesters living on Social Security in cheap, jobless rust belt towns, retirees collecting on a reverse mortgage, immigrants living 5 families to a house, affirmative action blacks and Hispanics living in cheap ethnic neighborhoods, etc. The relevant question is this: What is the experience of middling Whites who are of an age to have children in preschool?

    I repeat, Americans are paying over 30% of their pretax income on housing, even in the top quintile. It goes up from there.

    https://www.bls.gov/news.release/cesmy.nr0.htm

    Replies: @Art Deco

    Nobody cares about “real” wage statistics that don’t take account of housing proces.

    Except the price indices in question do take account of it. And you’re not in a position to say what informed people care about.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    @Art Deco


    Except the price indices in question do take account of it. And you’re not in a position to say what informed people care about.
     
    You can tell by looking at the data that they're not taking account of it!

    In 1960, when you claim average Americans were better off than they are now to justify begrudging them a bit of help with early childcare, the median house cost twice the average annual income. Now it's 3.5 times, as a result of which you get parents are stretched to the breaking point! Now you want to cry about asking those who profit from this inflation to pony up a few extra bucks a year to help young parents!?! And that doesn't even take growing income inequality into account.

    Seriously, GFY.

    And you’re not in a position to say what informed people care about.
     
    OK boomer.
  138. @Anon7
    @Mike Tre

    All true. But pre-K "education" is not just welfare - it's "starter socialism".

    The lesson is simple for both men and women; you don't need to create a stable family, just breed. No marriage, no churches, no culture: the state will take the children and rear them for you. The less competent you are as a parent, the more services will be provided.

    Replies: @Reaper

    “The less competent you are as a parent, the more services will be provided. ”

    Sadly this is very true.
    All modern/ welfare states based on this principle.

    Also it does NOT limited to parents.
    Like workforce: the less capable who get more benefits/ advantage/ programs. Not just cripples, but the ones who are less capable than the average monkey.

    The whole education, health and social system does it.
    That is about pump the less capable with funds/ programs/ quotas while supress/ deprive the ones with merits/ capabalities.

    In an ideal system there would be only benefits/ programs based on merits.
    Like extra funds, extra educational staff for the gifted, like for kids who were able to complete hight school as 8-9 years old, and ready for university level.

    Not for some lowlife who at 10 dull as a rug. Those ones does not deserve extra funds/ teaching assistants/ whatever.

    The only acceptable special needs should be talent care.

    But as a reality in democracies / so called modern states do the opposite: care for the bad, and hold back the better.

    If modern states/ societies would be a supermarket, then the prefered stock is:
    https://media.istockphoto.com/photos/rotting-fruit-and-vegetables-picture-id1139305000?k=20&m=1139305000&s=612×612&w=0&h=UlCYKGtQN97IaKtd3sTtLzxdmMPcwobgqkadS1Qq0Ik=

    While any better quality begone, no need for such stock like this:

    and off course it called evil, socially unsensitive, inhuman, etc.. just like eugenics.

  139. @Abolish_public_education
    @Jmaie

    I recently voted to pass a school bond costing me $750 a year (for 20 years) because it was needed.

    Figure the cost is 75¢ per $1,000 of valuation. That means your house is currently assessed at $1,000,000. (Your annual levy is ~$10,000, of which $3K+ already goes to the schools). You must be a lunatic. Your voting license needs to be lifted in that mental cases, and other deficients, are disqualified

    ~25% of those who voted said (correctly) that it was NOT needed. Tell us which district, and I'll tell you how bad it is and how it's only going to get WORSE; but you should have asked an opponent of the measure before you voted.

    Replies: @Jmaie

    Figure the cost is 75¢ per \$1,000 of valuation. That means your house is currently assessed at \$1,000,000. (Your annual levy is ~\$10,000, of which \$3K+ already goes to the schools). You must be a lunatic

    .

    Hilarious. Your various estimations are incorrect, you’ve zero knowledge of the local situation**, and you’re saying that 75% of the voters were so obviously wrong as to question our sanity. Must be quite the burden being omniscient and yet having to put up with the great unwashed…

    **school old enough that we were legally required to upgrade the building, refurbishment would have saved 20% of the total cost but then we’d still have had a poorly designed 50 year old building and the students would have spent two years in portables taking up the entire outside play area.

  140. @Art Deco
    @Rosie

    Nobody cares about “real” wage statistics that don’t take account of housing proces.

    Except the price indices in question do take account of it. And you're not in a position to say what informed people care about.

    Replies: @Rosie

    Except the price indices in question do take account of it. And you’re not in a position to say what informed people care about.

    You can tell by looking at the data that they’re not taking account of it!

    In 1960, when you claim average Americans were better off than they are now to justify begrudging them a bit of help with early childcare, the median house cost twice the average annual income. Now it’s 3.5 times, as a result of which you get parents are stretched to the breaking point! Now you want to cry about asking those who profit from this inflation to pony up a few extra bucks a year to help young parents!?! And that doesn’t even take growing income inequality into account.

    Seriously, GFY.

    And you’re not in a position to say what informed people care about.

    OK boomer.

  141. @Alden
    @Batman

    So enjoy paying taxes to support the welfare babies who should have been aborted to improve the human stock of the nation. And 20 years later enjoy supporting those sweet little baby boys who’ve turned into 80 IQ unemployable criminals and public nuisances.

    Now that abortion is going back to the states, expect a 1960s-80s style crime wave in about 25 years. The states most likely to end abortion will be Texas Louisiana Mississippi Alabama Georgia the Carolinas Tennessee Arkansas all the states with the largest number of dis functional blacks who will reproduce and reproduce.

    And soon the over population of retarded criminal useless blacks will start marching west and north. As they did 100 years ago.

    Typical MAN OF UNZ 0-2 White children 2 at most. Well, we’ve got 8 White grandchildren and we’re looking out for their welfare. Which includes not making it possible for more black predators to breed.

    Replies: @Batman

    So enjoy paying taxes to support the welfare babies who should have been aborted to improve the human stock of the nation. And 20 years later enjoy supporting those sweet little baby boys who’ve turned into 80 IQ unemployable criminals and public nuisances.

    False dichotomy. Choices are not limited to abortion or fullbore socialism. The third option is responsibly. My state throws deadbeat dads who don’t pay child support in jail. If we started doing that to welfare queen mamas, the market cap of Trojan Condoms will eclipse Apple.

  142. @Steve Sailer
    @Jus' Sayin'...

    My mother was concerned that I suddenly started watching Sesame Street when it debuted when I was about ten. Wasn't it for little kids?

    "Mom, I'm watching for aesthetic reasons. Sesame Street is a major stylistic breakthrough."

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @J.Ross, @Reg Cæsar, @Reg Cæsar

    “Mom, I’m watching for aesthetic reasons. Sesame Street is a major stylistic breakthrough.”

    Well, as long as you’re doing posts about Belgians like Luc[wh]y Sante, note that the harmonica that underlay the quieter moments of that often noisy show was the work of Toots Thielemans.

    RIP Sesame Street Musician Toots Thielemans

    Toots 100 Birthday Celebration

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Talk TV sensationalists and axe-grinding ideologues have fallen for a myth of immigrant lawlessness.
The Shaping Event of Our Modern World
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