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From MedicalXpress, a website that writes up scientific papers:

Genome study shows that Iran’s population is more heterogeneous than previously believed
September 25, 2019
University of Cologne

The first genome-wide genetic characterization of the Iranian population reveals highly heterogeneous ethnic groups with a high degree of genetic variation. Members of eleven selected Iranian ethnic groups took place in the study, including large groups such as Iranian Persians and Azeri, but also smaller ones like Arabs, Baluchi, Gilaki and Kurds.

… In many cases, their source goes back many thousands of years. The results, obtained from the first genome-wide genetic characterization of the Iranian population by this team, appeared in PLOS Genetics, titled “Distinct genetic variation and heterogeneity of the Iranian population.”

The researchers analyzed the genetic data of 1,021 volunteers whose parents and grandparents identified themselves as belonging to one of 11 selected Iranian ethnic groups, including large groups such as Iranian Persians and Azeri, but also smaller ones like Arabs, Baluchi, Gilaki and Kurds. These volunteers were sampled all over Iran. They found out that Iranian Persians and Kurds, for example, exhibit high in-group genetic variation which is larger than that of, for example, Germans. However, the entire gene pool has remained largely unchanged over at least the past 5,000 years, but probably [not over] the past 10,000 years.

… Furthermore, Britons and North Italians are genetically more similar than some ethnic groups in Iran. “This was somewhat surprising,” Michael Nothnagel said. “Until recently, many scientists had assumed genetic variation across present-day Iranians to be rather homogeneous.”

My impression is that Middle Eastern culture has a strong tendency toward endogamy and passing on peoplehood. The Jews are the most famous Middle Eastern group that is still around, but there are all sorts of others despite the impact of first Christianity and then Islam, both of which have universalizing tendencies, on the Middle East over the last 2000 years.

 
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  1. anonymous[102] • Disclaimer says:

    They found out that Iranian Persians and Kurds, for example, exhibit high in-group genetic variation which is larger than that of, for example, Germans.

    Is there an IQ implication to this info? Does that mean if Persians have an 85 average group IQ nonetheless there are a lot more people at the tail end of intelligence than expected like African Americans? And similar to African Americans, the very smart Persians are primarily the lighter than average individuals?

    Furthermore, Britons and North Italians are genetically more similar than some ethnic groups in Iran.

    Is there a standard unit of measure for comparing genetic similarity within a group?

    • Replies: @anon
    persians have the highest iq of all the ethnic groups in iran around 105

    "The work of Iranians can be seen in every field of cultural endeavor, including Arabic poetry, to which poets of Iranian origin composing their poems in Arabic made a very significant contribution. In a sense, Iranian Islam is a second advent of Islam itself, a new Islam sometimes referred to as Islam-i Ajam. It was this Persian Islam, rather than the original Arab Islam, that was brought to new areas and new peoples: to the Turks, first in Central Asia and then in the Middle East in the country which came to be called Turkey, and of course to India. The Ottoman Turks brought a form of Iranian civilization to the walls of Vienna. [...] By the time of the great Mongol invasions of the thirteenth century, Iranian Islam had become not only an important component; it had become a dominant element in Islam itself, and for several centuries the main centers of Islamic have the power and civilization were in countries that were, if not Iranian, at least marked by Iranian civilization. [...] The center of the Islamic world was under Turkish and Persian states, both shaped by Iranian culture. [...] The major centers of Islam in the late medieval and early modern periods, the centers of both political and cultural power, such as India, Central Asia, Iran, Turkey, were all part of this Iranian civilization. Although much of it spoke various forms of Turkish, as well as other local languages, their classical and cultural language was Persian. Arabic was of course the language of scripture and law, but Persian was the language of poetry and literature"

    https://imgur.com/a/Go6GT8K.com

    , @gate666
    most persians are light skinned.
  2. If there is a lack of genetic diversity, it leads to higher levels of recessive genes in the population. If there was a lack of diversity, everyone would be clones. Certain genetic charchteristics are better at evolving in specific conditions than other genetic charchteristics. These external events cannot be predicted in advance quite often. It is best to just let nature run its course in natural selection, than trying to intervene and play God imo. Many of the Eugenists have God complexes.

    A lack of genetic diversity would lead to a de-evolutionary mutant state.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    A lack of genetic diversity would lead to a de-evolutionary mutant state.
     
    Why is everybody picking on poor West Virginia today?
    , @adreadline

    If there is a lack of genetic diversity, it leads to higher levels of recessive genes in the population. If there was a lack of diversity, everyone would be clones. Certain genetic charchteristics are better at evolving in specific conditions than other genetic charchteristics. These external events cannot be predicted in advance quite often. It is best to just let nature run its course in natural selection, than trying to intervene and play God imo. Many of the Eugenists have God complexes.
     
    There are species, including animal species, which reproduce through parthenogenesis and have low genetic diversity naturally. They are not as common as those which reproduce sexually, being presumably more fragile, meaning they more easily go extinct. Natural selection does not invariably select for the best, however you define what's best. It predicts nothing, it does not foresee any changes in the environment, while humans, through artificial selection, can at least try to.
    , @bomag

    Many of the Eugenists have God complexes
     
    And their critics don't?
  3. I personally suspect the Chinese (transvestite) heroine icon Mulan was actually of Persian background.
    Her full name is ‘Hua Mulan’. ‘Hua’ could be a phonetic form of ‘Farsi’.
    She was apparently not Han Chinese.
    ………..
    As I point out before, Chinese have long presence across central Asia.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    I personally suspect the Chinese (transvestite) heroine ... Mulan was actually ... Persian ... Her full name is ‘Hua Mulan’. ‘Hua’ could be a phonetic form of ‘Farsi’. She was apparently not Han Chinese.
     
    Equating the sound of Hua with Fa (in "Farsi") works in some current Chinese dialects such as Hakka, but not in the versions of Chinese spoken at the time (400 - 600 AD).

    It is quite true, however, that Persian speakers played a significant role in Chinese history in the first millenium. An Lushan instigated a major rebellion against the Tang Dynasty. He belonged to an East Iranian ethnic group, the Sogdians.

  4. My impression is that Middle Eastern culture has a strong tendency toward endogamy and passing on peoplehood.

    Yes, but in the crossroads of the world, from Bangladesh to Morocco, enough alien genes slip in to give many a quite disharmonious blend of features.

    It’s where people are truly homogeneous from true isolation that people are uniformly handsome. At the extremes of the ecumene.

    • Replies: @Digital Samizdat
    Oh really? Like Australian Aborigines?
  5. @Rebel0007
    If there is a lack of genetic diversity, it leads to higher levels of recessive genes in the population. If there was a lack of diversity, everyone would be clones. Certain genetic charchteristics are better at evolving in specific conditions than other genetic charchteristics. These external events cannot be predicted in advance quite often. It is best to just let nature run its course in natural selection, than trying to intervene and play God imo. Many of the Eugenists have God complexes.

    A lack of genetic diversity would lead to a de-evolutionary mutant state.

    A lack of genetic diversity would lead to a de-evolutionary mutant state.

    Why is everybody picking on poor West Virginia today?

    • LOL: nokangaroos
    • Replies: @Desiderius

    It’s where people are truly homogeneous from true isolation that people are uniformly handsome. At the extremes of the ecumene.
     
  6. Not going there. West Virginia is a beautiful state, I mean not going there on mutant state. Americans tend to move around quite a bit. I’m certain that there is ample genetic diversity within people from West Virginia.

    Otherwise, we could just look at them and say, yep, that person is definitely from West Virginia.

    • Replies: @Tertius
    Thanks Rebel0007 from a born and bred Mountaineer. But I have to concede the truth of Reg Caesar's uncharitable post. Brain drain and out migration of the young and talented have hit WV hard...it isn't all about Opioids and Coal. And there's that strange sensation of sitting in the waiting area of a hub airport for the commuter flight back to the hills, glancing around and thinking, "You know, people from WV really do look different".
    , @Known Fact
    The DC suburbs have been sprawling into WVa, so that will add some Swamp DNA to the state's gene pool
  7. Iran produces Fields medalists and such.

    It’s clear they weren’t completely genetically swamped by the Arab conquest.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    https://www.imo-official.org/country_info.aspx?code=IRN

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nima_Arkani-Hamed


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryam_Mirzakhani


    I personally know two Persian-Americans whose fathers came here after the revolution and later chaired physics departments. And I have no personal connection to Persians or physics other than living in West LA.


    You're not going to see a lot of Bedouin goatherding thugs at the Institute fof Advanced Study as one of the 10 most brilliant scientists in the world.

    , @nokangaroos
    "Not at all" would be more accurate.

    The clash between Iran (Aryan farmer/warriors) and Turan (Turkic herdsnomads) is their foundational myth, as laid down in "Zohrab and Rustam" (which under a different sky became the "Hildebrandssaga"). The interweavings are fascinating ...
    Charlemagne´s Chapel in Aachen, like Teoderic`s (né Didrik von Bonn, Rhine German) tomb in Ravenna are pure Sassanid Persian in numerology (the octagon and the three layers denote the perfectness of Creation) as probably is the ideal of knighthood (in the ennobled form - Heinrich I. only wanted motivated and well-trained mercenaries).

    Current Parsi, Jews, Qashgai etc. are highly endogamous; not so much the mountain peoples (Reza Shah was a Kurd, like Karim Khan Zand and Saladin).
    Why would anyone raise an eyebrow at Germans being closer to North Italians (not even Tyroleans, there are loads of hot blue-eyed reddish-blond Lombards) than Iranians are to Turkmongolic herdspersons or Arabs?

  8. Anonymous[751] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    Iran produces Fields medalists and such.

    It's clear they weren't completely genetically swamped by the Arab conquest.

    https://www.imo-official.org/country_info.aspx?code=IRN

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nima_Arkani-Hamed

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryam_Mirzakhani

    I personally know two Persian-Americans whose fathers came here after the revolution and later chaired physics departments. And I have no personal connection to Persians or physics other than living in West LA.

    You’re not going to see a lot of Bedouin goatherding thugs at the Institute fof Advanced Study as one of the 10 most brilliant scientists in the world.

    • Replies: @syonredux
    https://www.pulseheadlines.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Maryam-Mirzakhani.jpg
    , @syonredux

    Among the various countries and cultures conquered through successive Islamic conquests, a remarkable number of scientists originated from Persia, who contributed immensely to the scientific flourishing of the Islamic Golden Age. According to Bernard Lewis: "Culturally, politically, and most remarkable of all even religiously, the Persian contribution to this new Islamic civilization is of immense importance. The work of Iranians can be seen in every field of cultural endeavor, including Arabic poetry, to which poets of Iranian origin composing their poems in Arabic made a very significant contribution."[44] Science, medicine, philosophy and technology in the newly Islamized Iranian society was influenced by and based on the scientific model of the major pre-Islamic Iranian universities in the Sassanian Empire. During this period hundreds of scholars and scientists vastly contributed to technology, science and medicine, later influencing the rise of European science during the Renaissance.[45]
     

    Ibn Khaldun wrote in his work Muqaddimah (1377) that most Muslim contributions were generally the works of Persians specifically:[46]

     


    Most of the ḥadîth scholars who preserved traditions for the Muslims also were Persians, or Persian in language and upbringing, because the discipline was widely cultivated in the 'Irâq and the regions beyond. Furthermore all the scholars who worked in the science of the principles of jurisprudence were Persians. The same applies to speculative theologians and to most Qur'ân commentators. Only the Persians engaged in the task of preserving knowledge and writing systematic scholarly works. Thus, the truth of the following statement by the Prophet becomes apparent: 'If scholarship hung suspended in the highest parts of heaven, the Persians would attain it.'
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age
  9. The Druze are a pretty fascinating example of this. Their genes might not travel farther than the village on the next hill.

  10. Whatever, most Iranians I have ever met were absolutely TERRIBLE people.

  11. Appositely, we Calvinists dined at a Persian restaurant last night. The food was excellent, and the proprietor could not have been nicer, except for one moment. I asked if the traditional Persian yogurt-based drink called doogh was similar to an Indian lassi. I received an aggrieved look and a firm correction. (Actually, though, the doogh did taste like a salty lassi with some mint.)

    • LOL: Blinky Bill
  12. @anonymous

    They found out that Iranian Persians and Kurds, for example, exhibit high in-group genetic variation which is larger than that of, for example, Germans.
     
    Is there an IQ implication to this info? Does that mean if Persians have an 85 average group IQ nonetheless there are a lot more people at the tail end of intelligence than expected like African Americans? And similar to African Americans, the very smart Persians are primarily the lighter than average individuals?

    Furthermore, Britons and North Italians are genetically more similar than some ethnic groups in Iran.
     
    Is there a standard unit of measure for comparing genetic similarity within a group?

    persians have the highest iq of all the ethnic groups in iran around 105

    “The work of Iranians can be seen in every field of cultural endeavor, including Arabic poetry, to which poets of Iranian origin composing their poems in Arabic made a very significant contribution. In a sense, Iranian Islam is a second advent of Islam itself, a new Islam sometimes referred to as Islam-i Ajam. It was this Persian Islam, rather than the original Arab Islam, that was brought to new areas and new peoples: to the Turks, first in Central Asia and then in the Middle East in the country which came to be called Turkey, and of course to India. The Ottoman Turks brought a form of Iranian civilization to the walls of Vienna. […] By the time of the great Mongol invasions of the thirteenth century, Iranian Islam had become not only an important component; it had become a dominant element in Islam itself, and for several centuries the main centers of Islamic have the power and civilization were in countries that were, if not Iranian, at least marked by Iranian civilization. […] The center of the Islamic world was under Turkish and Persian states, both shaped by Iranian culture. […] The major centers of Islam in the late medieval and early modern periods, the centers of both political and cultural power, such as India, Central Asia, Iran, Turkey, were all part of this Iranian civilization. Although much of it spoke various forms of Turkish, as well as other local languages, their classical and cultural language was Persian. Arabic was of course the language of scripture and law, but Persian was the language of poetry and literature”

    https://imgur.com/a/Go6GT8K.com

    • Replies: @anonymous
    Based on relatively poor development level of Iran (boosted by 2-3 million barrels of oil per day in exports until recently), I think Persians have an IQ of around 85. However, they have a lot more very smart people considering a presumptive group average of 85. The Persian Fields Medal winner is a good indication of this.

    I am only conjecturing. Is there such a thing as high yellow Persians? Like African Americans with predominantly white admixture. In the Persian context would high yellow mean low admixture with populations that arrived after the Arab conquest?
    , @Oscar Peterson
    Yes, the capacity of Iran, in comparison with Arab states, to develop impressive technological capabilities seems quite stark. What the Iranians can do for themselves, the Arabs have to import foreign experts to do.
  13. It is very interesting that studies on Rome, Greece, Spain and Iran demonstrate remarkable continuity of those populations from around the Iron Age to the present.

    • Replies: @Sam Coulton
    Wtf? No they do not, a recent study found no continuity in Rome from the Iron Age onwards.
  14. The imposition of the Arab barbarian invaders’ religion upon the Persian people was one of history’s great tragedies.

    • Replies: @Hapalong Cassidy
    Yes, and I think it was the Arab Muslims’ good fortune (and the rest of the world’s misfortune) that they happened to catch the Persians at their lowest and most disorganized point in centuries. Thus the rare instance of a southern culture invading an conquering a northern one, when throughout history the opposite has usually been the case. On the other hand, the Persians were not so thoroughly conquered that their language was replaced, unlike much of the Fertile Crescent and North Africa. And their culture greatly influenced the eastern half of the Muslim Empire, and intensified the split between Shia and Sunni.
    , @SimplePseudonymicHandle
    True
    , @Leopold

    The imposition of the Arab barbarian invaders’ religion upon the Persian people was one of history’s great tragedies.
     
    er....they could change back if they wanted.
  15. Anonymous[183] • Disclaimer says:
    @Lin
    I personally suspect the Chinese (transvestite) heroine icon Mulan was actually of Persian background.
    Her full name is 'Hua Mulan'. 'Hua' could be a phonetic form of 'Farsi'.
    She was apparently not Han Chinese.
    ………..
    As I point out before, Chinese have long presence across central Asia.

    I personally suspect the Chinese (transvestite) heroine … Mulan was actually … Persian … Her full name is ‘Hua Mulan’. ‘Hua’ could be a phonetic form of ‘Farsi’. She was apparently not Han Chinese.

    Equating the sound of Hua with Fa (in “Farsi”) works in some current Chinese dialects such as Hakka, but not in the versions of Chinese spoken at the time (400 – 600 AD).

    It is quite true, however, that Persian speakers played a significant role in Chinese history in the first millenium. An Lushan instigated a major rebellion against the Tang Dynasty. He belonged to an East Iranian ethnic group, the Sogdians.

  16. @Anonymous
    https://www.imo-official.org/country_info.aspx?code=IRN

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nima_Arkani-Hamed


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryam_Mirzakhani


    I personally know two Persian-Americans whose fathers came here after the revolution and later chaired physics departments. And I have no personal connection to Persians or physics other than living in West LA.


    You're not going to see a lot of Bedouin goatherding thugs at the Institute fof Advanced Study as one of the 10 most brilliant scientists in the world.

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    Rest in peace and Thank you.
    , @anonymous
    Apparently the elites have no problem with educating women

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sara_Zahedi


    "She is one of ten winners and the only female winner of the European Mathematical Society Prize for 2016"
  17. @Anonymous
    https://www.imo-official.org/country_info.aspx?code=IRN

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nima_Arkani-Hamed


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryam_Mirzakhani


    I personally know two Persian-Americans whose fathers came here after the revolution and later chaired physics departments. And I have no personal connection to Persians or physics other than living in West LA.


    You're not going to see a lot of Bedouin goatherding thugs at the Institute fof Advanced Study as one of the 10 most brilliant scientists in the world.

    Among the various countries and cultures conquered through successive Islamic conquests, a remarkable number of scientists originated from Persia, who contributed immensely to the scientific flourishing of the Islamic Golden Age. According to Bernard Lewis: “Culturally, politically, and most remarkable of all even religiously, the Persian contribution to this new Islamic civilization is of immense importance. The work of Iranians can be seen in every field of cultural endeavor, including Arabic poetry, to which poets of Iranian origin composing their poems in Arabic made a very significant contribution.”[44] Science, medicine, philosophy and technology in the newly Islamized Iranian society was influenced by and based on the scientific model of the major pre-Islamic Iranian universities in the Sassanian Empire. During this period hundreds of scholars and scientists vastly contributed to technology, science and medicine, later influencing the rise of European science during the Renaissance.[45]

    Ibn Khaldun wrote in his work Muqaddimah (1377) that most Muslim contributions were generally the works of Persians specifically:[46]

    Most of the ḥadîth scholars who preserved traditions for the Muslims also were Persians, or Persian in language and upbringing, because the discipline was widely cultivated in the ‘Irâq and the regions beyond. Furthermore all the scholars who worked in the science of the principles of jurisprudence were Persians. The same applies to speculative theologians and to most Qur’ân commentators. Only the Persians engaged in the task of preserving knowledge and writing systematic scholarly works. Thus, the truth of the following statement by the Prophet becomes apparent: ‘If scholarship hung suspended in the highest parts of heaven, the Persians would attain it.’

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age

    • Agree: Oscar Peterson
    • Replies: @anonymous
    Iran sure aint Saudi Arabia.


    It is the natural center of civilized power in the region.


    In the long run, I don't know what Israel is going to do about that. Obviously they're trying to get us to destroy them in a war. We'll see.
    , @Oscar Peterson
    Yeah, the Arabs have always had a deep underlying fear, I think, that Persians would somehow take their one true contribution to world culture--Islam--and make it more Persian than Arab. This became especially true after Persian was "converted" to Twelver Shiism in the 16th century.

    When we look at Saudi obsessiveness about Iran, it's impossible to explain it any other way, because Iran isn't really in a position to become the "hegemony" of the region despite all the polemics to the contrary.

    Even many secular Sunni leaders seem to share this feeling in one form or another.
    , @syonredux

    Muḥammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī[note 1] (Persian: Muḥammad Khwārizmī محمد بن موسى خوارزمی‎; c. 780 – c. 850), Arabized as al-Khwarizmi with al- and formerly Latinized as Algorithmi, was a Persian[3][4][5] scholar who produced works in mathematics, astronomy, and geography. Around 820 AD he was appointed as the astronomer and head of the library of the House of Wisdom in Baghdad.[6]:14
     

    Al-Khwarizmi's popularizing treatise on algebra (The Compendious Book on Calculation by Completion and Balancing, c. 813–833 CE[7]:171) presented the first systematic solution of linear and quadratic equations. One of his principal achievements in algebra was his demonstration of how to solve quadratic equations by completing the square, for which he provided geometric justifications.[6]:14 Because he was the first to treat algebra as an independent discipline and introduced the methods of "reduction" and "balancing" (the transposition of subtracted terms to the other side of an equation, that is, the cancellation of like terms on opposite sides of the equation),[8] he has been described as the father[3][9][10] or founder[11][12] of algebra. The term algebra itself comes from the title of his book (specifically the word al-jabr meaning "completion" or "rejoining").[13] His name gave rise to the terms algorism and algorithm.[14] His name is also the origin of (Spanish) guarismo[15] and of (Portuguese) algarismo, both meaning digit.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Musa_al-Khwarizmi

    Omar Khayyam (/kaɪˈjɑːm/; Persian: عمر خیّام‎ [oˈmæɾ xæjˈjɒːm]; 18 May 1048 – 4 December 1131) was a Persian mathematician, astronomer, and poet.[3][4][5] He was born in Nishapur, in northeastern Iran, and spent most of his life near the court of the Karakhanid and Seljuq rulers in the period which witnessed the First Crusade.
     

    As a mathematician, he is most notable for his work on the classification and solution of cubic equations, where he provided geometric solutions by the intersection of conics.[6] Khayyam also contributed to the understanding of the parallel axiom.[7]:284 As an astronomer, he designed the Jalali calendar, a solar calendar with a very precise 33-year intercalation cycle.[8][9]:659
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khayyam
  18. Does this include significant phenotypical diversity or are we talking about mostly black haired, dark-eyed people?

  19. @syonredux
    https://www.pulseheadlines.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Maryam-Mirzakhani.jpg

    Rest in peace and Thank you.

  20. anonymous[409] • Disclaimer says:
    @anon
    persians have the highest iq of all the ethnic groups in iran around 105

    "The work of Iranians can be seen in every field of cultural endeavor, including Arabic poetry, to which poets of Iranian origin composing their poems in Arabic made a very significant contribution. In a sense, Iranian Islam is a second advent of Islam itself, a new Islam sometimes referred to as Islam-i Ajam. It was this Persian Islam, rather than the original Arab Islam, that was brought to new areas and new peoples: to the Turks, first in Central Asia and then in the Middle East in the country which came to be called Turkey, and of course to India. The Ottoman Turks brought a form of Iranian civilization to the walls of Vienna. [...] By the time of the great Mongol invasions of the thirteenth century, Iranian Islam had become not only an important component; it had become a dominant element in Islam itself, and for several centuries the main centers of Islamic have the power and civilization were in countries that were, if not Iranian, at least marked by Iranian civilization. [...] The center of the Islamic world was under Turkish and Persian states, both shaped by Iranian culture. [...] The major centers of Islam in the late medieval and early modern periods, the centers of both political and cultural power, such as India, Central Asia, Iran, Turkey, were all part of this Iranian civilization. Although much of it spoke various forms of Turkish, as well as other local languages, their classical and cultural language was Persian. Arabic was of course the language of scripture and law, but Persian was the language of poetry and literature"

    https://imgur.com/a/Go6GT8K.com

    Based on relatively poor development level of Iran (boosted by 2-3 million barrels of oil per day in exports until recently), I think Persians have an IQ of around 85. However, they have a lot more very smart people considering a presumptive group average of 85. The Persian Fields Medal winner is a good indication of this.

    I am only conjecturing. Is there such a thing as high yellow Persians? Like African Americans with predominantly white admixture. In the Persian context would high yellow mean low admixture with populations that arrived after the Arab conquest?

    • Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic
    The whole Dar al Islam is strange to me. They seem to have an ample right side distribution to keep up with modernity. Their countries don't really have the "look" of 85 IQ average--but I've only been to Lebanon--so the right side skew must be punching above its weight. Or IQ may not be measuring something. Strong cultural institutions holding the line. I don't know.

    But the left side distribution, wtf. Then you give those places democracy, and you get the most awful political class in the world.

    They're very old places, and old places seem to get weirdly complex over millenia. The MENA/Asia Minor is like this odd confluence of Islam, clannishness, post-imperial fallout and brain drain. More arguments for keeping them there and us here.

    , @anon
    I think Persians have an IQ of around 85. However, they have a lot more very smart people considering a presumptive group average of 85. The Persian Fields Medal winner is a good indication of this.

    Mean of g doesn't tell us much without variance. Based on the Persians I have worked with, variance of g is probably fairly high. That in turn suggests a flatter distribution, with fewer people near the mean and more in the tails - both left and right. More retards and more geniuses.

    Iranian geography looks conducive to isolated groups, what with the mountain ranges, deserts, and so forth. Therefore, more genetic diversity. Last time I checked the actual Persians were not so much a majority as a plurality within the Iranian population, but I might be mistaken on that.
  21. @Agathoklis
    It is very interesting that studies on Rome, Greece, Spain and Iran demonstrate remarkable continuity of those populations from around the Iron Age to the present.

    Wtf? No they do not, a recent study found no continuity in Rome from the Iron Age onwards.

    • Replies: @T.Chris
    Try actually reading and understanding the studies, or at least the relevant parts:

    https://italianthro.blogspot.com/2019/11/ancient-roman-dna.html

    https://racialreality.blogspot.com/2017/08/genetic-continuity-in-greece.html
    , @Agathoklis
    Here is a link to the supplementary material from the study. In a nutshell, the modern population is very similar to Iron Age aDNA. However, in between there was a massive influx of Eastern Med people primarily during the Imperial Age. Once Rome lost its primacy and became depopulated, it was mostly repopulated by people of Lazio who closely resembled modern and Iron Age Roman DNA.

    https://science.sciencemag.org/content/suppl/2019/11/06/366.6466.708.DC1
  22. @AP
    The imposition of the Arab barbarian invaders’ religion upon the Persian people was one of history’s great tragedies.

    Yes, and I think it was the Arab Muslims’ good fortune (and the rest of the world’s misfortune) that they happened to catch the Persians at their lowest and most disorganized point in centuries. Thus the rare instance of a southern culture invading an conquering a northern one, when throughout history the opposite has usually been the case. On the other hand, the Persians were not so thoroughly conquered that their language was replaced, unlike much of the Fertile Crescent and North Africa. And their culture greatly influenced the eastern half of the Muslim Empire, and intensified the split between Shia and Sunni.

  23. @Rebel0007
    If there is a lack of genetic diversity, it leads to higher levels of recessive genes in the population. If there was a lack of diversity, everyone would be clones. Certain genetic charchteristics are better at evolving in specific conditions than other genetic charchteristics. These external events cannot be predicted in advance quite often. It is best to just let nature run its course in natural selection, than trying to intervene and play God imo. Many of the Eugenists have God complexes.

    A lack of genetic diversity would lead to a de-evolutionary mutant state.

    If there is a lack of genetic diversity, it leads to higher levels of recessive genes in the population. If there was a lack of diversity, everyone would be clones. Certain genetic charchteristics are better at evolving in specific conditions than other genetic charchteristics. These external events cannot be predicted in advance quite often. It is best to just let nature run its course in natural selection, than trying to intervene and play God imo. Many of the Eugenists have God complexes.

    There are species, including animal species, which reproduce through parthenogenesis and have low genetic diversity naturally. They are not as common as those which reproduce sexually, being presumably more fragile, meaning they more easily go extinct. Natural selection does not invariably select for the best, however you define what’s best. It predicts nothing, it does not foresee any changes in the environment, while humans, through artificial selection, can at least try to.

  24. @Reg Cæsar

    My impression is that Middle Eastern culture has a strong tendency toward endogamy and passing on peoplehood.
     
    Yes, but in the crossroads of the world, from Bangladesh to Morocco, enough alien genes slip in to give many a quite disharmonious blend of features.

    It's where people are truly homogeneous from true isolation that people are uniformly handsome. At the extremes of the ecumene.

    Oh really? Like Australian Aborigines?

    • Replies: @Lars Porsena
    Supposedly Britons and north Italians are a bit more genetically similar than Japanese and Korean too, and Korean are the closest to Japanese you can get.

    Europe is pretty well blended. That pretty much comports with the last couple thousand years of history. Europe is also very small though, too. Genetic distance often roughly seems to correspond with geographic distance. As a crow flies, the distance between Japan and South Korea is 587 miles (by water) and the distance between London and Venice is 707 miles (by land, except the channel). The distance from Turkish border to the Pakistani border is 2,017 miles.

    You can fit London, Paris, Berlin, Prague and Venice all within the size of Texas.

    https://i.imgur.com/9prUT6f.jpg
  25. @Sam Coulton
    Wtf? No they do not, a recent study found no continuity in Rome from the Iron Age onwards.
  26. They found out that Iranian Persians and Kurds, for example, exhibit high in-group genetic variation which is larger than that of, for example, Germans.

    Doesn’t seem surprising. Central Europe is a much remoter place historically and pre-historically than Iran, a crossroads of human migrations/invasions from almost as soon as humans departed Africa.

    The Aryan migrations that brought Persians and their Indo-European language to the Iranian Plateau and Germanic/Slavic/Celtic/Italic/Hellenic languages to Europe left the Iranians on a major highway and the Europeans in a relatively isolated peninsula. Iran, but not Europe was in close proximity to major Semitic populations to the south and west and later subject to Semitic (Arab) invasion in the 7th century. Subsequently, major armed migrations of Turko-Mongols took place as well. The original ruling class of the modern (Safavid) Iranian state was largely Turkic. In general, the geographical impediments to migration/invasion are much lower in SW Asia than in far western Eurasia (i.e., Europe.)

    And given that the south Eurasian rimland was the major original thoroughfare into South and SE Asia, one might expect expect some Dravidian-like or other major substrate, with Europe again off the beaten path and subject to more forbidding climate effects.

  27. @anon
    persians have the highest iq of all the ethnic groups in iran around 105

    "The work of Iranians can be seen in every field of cultural endeavor, including Arabic poetry, to which poets of Iranian origin composing their poems in Arabic made a very significant contribution. In a sense, Iranian Islam is a second advent of Islam itself, a new Islam sometimes referred to as Islam-i Ajam. It was this Persian Islam, rather than the original Arab Islam, that was brought to new areas and new peoples: to the Turks, first in Central Asia and then in the Middle East in the country which came to be called Turkey, and of course to India. The Ottoman Turks brought a form of Iranian civilization to the walls of Vienna. [...] By the time of the great Mongol invasions of the thirteenth century, Iranian Islam had become not only an important component; it had become a dominant element in Islam itself, and for several centuries the main centers of Islamic have the power and civilization were in countries that were, if not Iranian, at least marked by Iranian civilization. [...] The center of the Islamic world was under Turkish and Persian states, both shaped by Iranian culture. [...] The major centers of Islam in the late medieval and early modern periods, the centers of both political and cultural power, such as India, Central Asia, Iran, Turkey, were all part of this Iranian civilization. Although much of it spoke various forms of Turkish, as well as other local languages, their classical and cultural language was Persian. Arabic was of course the language of scripture and law, but Persian was the language of poetry and literature"

    https://imgur.com/a/Go6GT8K.com

    Yes, the capacity of Iran, in comparison with Arab states, to develop impressive technological capabilities seems quite stark. What the Iranians can do for themselves, the Arabs have to import foreign experts to do.

  28. Anonymous[974] • Disclaimer says:

    Of course the original ‘real’ Iranian people were ‘proper’ white people – with light skin, light hair and light eyes – who came originally from Europe, by way of central Asia. The familiar ‘dark’ Iranians that we see to day, represent the pre Aryan population of the territory of Iran.
    Now, it appears that the Aryan contribution to the Iranian gene pool was, essentially, minimal.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Isn't it the other way around? That European farmers came largely from the Iranian plateau, that event being known as the 'Indo-European' invasion? I think you're thinking of India. That said, there are clearly many other ancient groups on the territory of Iran apart from the original 'Iranians'.
    , @T.Chris
    You don't know anything.

    The people you're calling "Aryans" from "Europe" were half Iran Neolithic/Caucasus Hunter Gatherer, which was almost genetically identical to modern "dark" Iranians and Armenians. And the other half was a mix of European Hunter Gatherer and Ancient North Eurasian, which were both related to East Asians and Native Americans. The DNA evidence says the "Aryans" were largely brunet in pigmentation.

    And that's not even counting all the Anatolian Neolithic ancestry in Europe (including Northern Europe) that was also Middle Eastern and brunet.
    , @Mtina
    "Now, it appears that the Aryan contribution to the Iranian gene pool was, essentially, minimal." Except for the fact, the Max Plank Institute and geneticist David Reich both hypothesize now that Iranian was the PIE homeland.
  29. @anonymous

    They found out that Iranian Persians and Kurds, for example, exhibit high in-group genetic variation which is larger than that of, for example, Germans.
     
    Is there an IQ implication to this info? Does that mean if Persians have an 85 average group IQ nonetheless there are a lot more people at the tail end of intelligence than expected like African Americans? And similar to African Americans, the very smart Persians are primarily the lighter than average individuals?

    Furthermore, Britons and North Italians are genetically more similar than some ethnic groups in Iran.
     
    Is there a standard unit of measure for comparing genetic similarity within a group?

    most persians are light skinned.

  30. @anonymous
    Based on relatively poor development level of Iran (boosted by 2-3 million barrels of oil per day in exports until recently), I think Persians have an IQ of around 85. However, they have a lot more very smart people considering a presumptive group average of 85. The Persian Fields Medal winner is a good indication of this.

    I am only conjecturing. Is there such a thing as high yellow Persians? Like African Americans with predominantly white admixture. In the Persian context would high yellow mean low admixture with populations that arrived after the Arab conquest?

    The whole Dar al Islam is strange to me. They seem to have an ample right side distribution to keep up with modernity. Their countries don’t really have the “look” of 85 IQ average–but I’ve only been to Lebanon–so the right side skew must be punching above its weight. Or IQ may not be measuring something. Strong cultural institutions holding the line. I don’t know.

    But the left side distribution, wtf. Then you give those places democracy, and you get the most awful political class in the world.

    They’re very old places, and old places seem to get weirdly complex over millenia. The MENA/Asia Minor is like this odd confluence of Islam, clannishness, post-imperial fallout and brain drain. More arguments for keeping them there and us here.

  31. @Rebel0007
    If there is a lack of genetic diversity, it leads to higher levels of recessive genes in the population. If there was a lack of diversity, everyone would be clones. Certain genetic charchteristics are better at evolving in specific conditions than other genetic charchteristics. These external events cannot be predicted in advance quite often. It is best to just let nature run its course in natural selection, than trying to intervene and play God imo. Many of the Eugenists have God complexes.

    A lack of genetic diversity would lead to a de-evolutionary mutant state.

    Many of the Eugenists have God complexes

    And their critics don’t?

  32. @Sam Coulton
    Wtf? No they do not, a recent study found no continuity in Rome from the Iron Age onwards.

    Here is a link to the supplementary material from the study. In a nutshell, the modern population is very similar to Iron Age aDNA. However, in between there was a massive influx of Eastern Med people primarily during the Imperial Age. Once Rome lost its primacy and became depopulated, it was mostly repopulated by people of Lazio who closely resembled modern and Iron Age Roman DNA.

    https://science.sciencemag.org/content/suppl/2019/11/06/366.6466.708.DC1

  33. @Rebel0007
    Not going there. West Virginia is a beautiful state, I mean not going there on mutant state. Americans tend to move around quite a bit. I'm certain that there is ample genetic diversity within people from West Virginia.

    Otherwise, we could just look at them and say, yep, that person is definitely from West Virginia.

    Thanks Rebel0007 from a born and bred Mountaineer. But I have to concede the truth of Reg Caesar’s uncharitable post. Brain drain and out migration of the young and talented have hit WV hard…it isn’t all about Opioids and Coal. And there’s that strange sensation of sitting in the waiting area of a hub airport for the commuter flight back to the hills, glancing around and thinking, “You know, people from WV really do look different”.

    • Replies: @JMcG
    I used to be able to correctly identify the gate for the flight that was heading for Philadelphia with astonishing precision maybe 25 years ago. I don’t fly domestically too much anymore, so I couldn’t say if that’s still possible. Come to think of it, I don’t think I could identify the gate that was heading for Dublin, Ireland anymore, based on last week’s experience.
  34. @Rebel0007
    Not going there. West Virginia is a beautiful state, I mean not going there on mutant state. Americans tend to move around quite a bit. I'm certain that there is ample genetic diversity within people from West Virginia.

    Otherwise, we could just look at them and say, yep, that person is definitely from West Virginia.

    The DC suburbs have been sprawling into WVa, so that will add some Swamp DNA to the state’s gene pool

  35. Is all this related to Lisa Page’s mom being from Iran? (Although very possibly of Armenian descent, as someone else here alertly pointed out).

    Anyway, my circa 1970 whiter-than-white high school somehow had one authentic Iranian kid, smart, nice guy, totally assimilated, my defense partner on our roller-hockey team.

    Some nice looking ladies here …

    https://www.ranker.com/list/persian-celebrities/celebrity-lists?ref=inline_nodesquared

  36. @AP
    The imposition of the Arab barbarian invaders’ religion upon the Persian people was one of history’s great tragedies.

    True

  37. Oh really? Like Australian Aborigines?

    The purebloods are okay. They’re consistent. It’s the mixed ones who are, well, mixed-up. Like everywhere else.

    The folks in the Horn of Africa are mixed yet rarely look bad. That’s because the mixing took place thousands of years ago, and has had time to settle down.

    Gee, it’s almost as if good looks are evolutionary!

  38. @Digital Samizdat
    Oh really? Like Australian Aborigines?

    Supposedly Britons and north Italians are a bit more genetically similar than Japanese and Korean too, and Korean are the closest to Japanese you can get.

    Europe is pretty well blended. That pretty much comports with the last couple thousand years of history. Europe is also very small though, too. Genetic distance often roughly seems to correspond with geographic distance. As a crow flies, the distance between Japan and South Korea is 587 miles (by water) and the distance between London and Venice is 707 miles (by land, except the channel). The distance from Turkish border to the Pakistani border is 2,017 miles.

    You can fit London, Paris, Berlin, Prague and Venice all within the size of Texas.

    • Replies: @Lars Porsena
    Can't edit. Don't know why it was in response to Digital Samizdat, wasn't suppose to be.
  39. @syonredux

    Among the various countries and cultures conquered through successive Islamic conquests, a remarkable number of scientists originated from Persia, who contributed immensely to the scientific flourishing of the Islamic Golden Age. According to Bernard Lewis: "Culturally, politically, and most remarkable of all even religiously, the Persian contribution to this new Islamic civilization is of immense importance. The work of Iranians can be seen in every field of cultural endeavor, including Arabic poetry, to which poets of Iranian origin composing their poems in Arabic made a very significant contribution."[44] Science, medicine, philosophy and technology in the newly Islamized Iranian society was influenced by and based on the scientific model of the major pre-Islamic Iranian universities in the Sassanian Empire. During this period hundreds of scholars and scientists vastly contributed to technology, science and medicine, later influencing the rise of European science during the Renaissance.[45]
     

    Ibn Khaldun wrote in his work Muqaddimah (1377) that most Muslim contributions were generally the works of Persians specifically:[46]

     


    Most of the ḥadîth scholars who preserved traditions for the Muslims also were Persians, or Persian in language and upbringing, because the discipline was widely cultivated in the 'Irâq and the regions beyond. Furthermore all the scholars who worked in the science of the principles of jurisprudence were Persians. The same applies to speculative theologians and to most Qur'ân commentators. Only the Persians engaged in the task of preserving knowledge and writing systematic scholarly works. Thus, the truth of the following statement by the Prophet becomes apparent: 'If scholarship hung suspended in the highest parts of heaven, the Persians would attain it.'
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age

    Iran sure aint Saudi Arabia.

    It is the natural center of civilized power in the region.

    In the long run, I don’t know what Israel is going to do about that. Obviously they’re trying to get us to destroy them in a war. We’ll see.

  40. @syonredux
    https://www.pulseheadlines.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Maryam-Mirzakhani.jpg

    Apparently the elites have no problem with educating women

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sara_Zahedi

    “She is one of ten winners and the only female winner of the European Mathematical Society Prize for 2016”

  41. @Lars Porsena
    Supposedly Britons and north Italians are a bit more genetically similar than Japanese and Korean too, and Korean are the closest to Japanese you can get.

    Europe is pretty well blended. That pretty much comports with the last couple thousand years of history. Europe is also very small though, too. Genetic distance often roughly seems to correspond with geographic distance. As a crow flies, the distance between Japan and South Korea is 587 miles (by water) and the distance between London and Venice is 707 miles (by land, except the channel). The distance from Turkish border to the Pakistani border is 2,017 miles.

    You can fit London, Paris, Berlin, Prague and Venice all within the size of Texas.

    https://i.imgur.com/9prUT6f.jpg

    Can’t edit. Don’t know why it was in response to Digital Samizdat, wasn’t suppose to be.

  42. anon[346] • Disclaimer says:
    @anonymous
    Based on relatively poor development level of Iran (boosted by 2-3 million barrels of oil per day in exports until recently), I think Persians have an IQ of around 85. However, they have a lot more very smart people considering a presumptive group average of 85. The Persian Fields Medal winner is a good indication of this.

    I am only conjecturing. Is there such a thing as high yellow Persians? Like African Americans with predominantly white admixture. In the Persian context would high yellow mean low admixture with populations that arrived after the Arab conquest?

    I think Persians have an IQ of around 85. However, they have a lot more very smart people considering a presumptive group average of 85. The Persian Fields Medal winner is a good indication of this.

    Mean of g doesn’t tell us much without variance. Based on the Persians I have worked with, variance of g is probably fairly high. That in turn suggests a flatter distribution, with fewer people near the mean and more in the tails – both left and right. More retards and more geniuses.

    Iranian geography looks conducive to isolated groups, what with the mountain ranges, deserts, and so forth. Therefore, more genetic diversity. Last time I checked the actual Persians were not so much a majority as a plurality within the Iranian population, but I might be mistaken on that.

  43. Is it true that “Iranian” is an alternative spelling of “Aryan?” It’s a common belief, whether correct or not. Does that belief do anything to explain Jewish animus toward Iran?

    • Replies: @SDC
    Iran is a shortening of the Middle Persian "Eranshahr", which is itself a shortening of the Old Persian "Kshatriya Aryana" which means "Land of the Aryans". It almost certainly explains Jewish animus.
  44. @Dana Thompson
    Is it true that "Iranian" is an alternative spelling of "Aryan?" It's a common belief, whether correct or not. Does that belief do anything to explain Jewish animus toward Iran?

    Iran is a shortening of the Middle Persian “Eranshahr”, which is itself a shortening of the Old Persian “Kshatriya Aryana” which means “Land of the Aryans”. It almost certainly explains Jewish animus.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    In the shah's day Israel and Iran were very close.
  45. @Adreadline

    Natural selection doesselect for the best. Your claim that it does not is a non sequitur. It is true that each individual is not able to just select whomever they choose without the consent of the other. They are able to select the best of those of whom are willing to be with them in the human race. There are many rapists in the human race that seek to select without consent.

    For the human race as a species though, everyone cannot survive if everyone does the same thing, unless everyone is capable of total indepence. I actually think that people would benefit from being far more independent than western society will legally permit.

    However, if there were suddenly to be a supremely capable genetic transformation in which everyone had the same genetic structure, we would very quickly end our own existences as a species. People are at the top of the food chain, barring bears, lions, tigers, sharks, and a few other species that are quite rare.

    You have no right to determine these things. You have a God-complex. You are the Monsanto of the human race! Not a good thing!

  46. @AP
    The imposition of the Arab barbarian invaders’ religion upon the Persian people was one of history’s great tragedies.

    The imposition of the Arab barbarian invaders’ religion upon the Persian people was one of history’s great tragedies.

    er….they could change back if they wanted.

  47. @Anonymous
    Of course the original 'real' Iranian people were 'proper' white people - with light skin, light hair and light eyes - who came originally from Europe, by way of central Asia. The familiar 'dark' Iranians that we see to day, represent the pre Aryan population of the territory of Iran.
    Now, it appears that the Aryan contribution to the Iranian gene pool was, essentially, minimal.

    Isn’t it the other way around? That European farmers came largely from the Iranian plateau, that event being known as the ‘Indo-European’ invasion? I think you’re thinking of India. That said, there are clearly many other ancient groups on the territory of Iran apart from the original ‘Iranians’.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    No.

    You're the one who's got it ass-backwards.

    Ultimately, the Aryans were of the Sintashta Culture - which was a development of the European Corded Ware Culture. The ultimate, deep roots of the Corded Ware people is from a hybrid population in what is now European Russia.
  48. @Bomag

    The critics of the Eugenicists are not the ones that are trying to control everyone else’s lives and even everyone else’s reproductive choices. If someone has to have eggs or sperm donated that should basically be a heads up and a clue! Of course, many Eugenicists are simply doing this for money, and view everyone else as their own personal natural resource.

    They are predators. More like cannibals, since they are preying upon their own species.

  49. If you were in an airport, how do you know if the people that you were seeing were from West Virginia, or were visting?

    Maybe you need glasses. Maybe you are in the autistic spectrum disorder in which some, but not all are incapable of distiguishing one face from another.

  50. @Anonymous
    Iran produces Fields medalists and such.

    It's clear they weren't completely genetically swamped by the Arab conquest.

    “Not at all” would be more accurate.

    The clash between Iran (Aryan farmer/warriors) and Turan (Turkic herdsnomads) is their foundational myth, as laid down in “Zohrab and Rustam” (which under a different sky became the “Hildebrandssaga”). The interweavings are fascinating …
    Charlemagne´s Chapel in Aachen, like Teoderic`s (né Didrik von Bonn, Rhine German) tomb in Ravenna are pure Sassanid Persian in numerology (the octagon and the three layers denote the perfectness of Creation) as probably is the ideal of knighthood (in the ennobled form – Heinrich I. only wanted motivated and well-trained mercenaries).

    Current Parsi, Jews, Qashgai etc. are highly endogamous; not so much the mountain peoples (Reza Shah was a Kurd, like Karim Khan Zand and Saladin).
    Why would anyone raise an eyebrow at Germans being closer to North Italians (not even Tyroleans, there are loads of hot blue-eyed reddish-blond Lombards) than Iranians are to Turkmongolic herdspersons or Arabs?

  51. @syonredux

    Among the various countries and cultures conquered through successive Islamic conquests, a remarkable number of scientists originated from Persia, who contributed immensely to the scientific flourishing of the Islamic Golden Age. According to Bernard Lewis: "Culturally, politically, and most remarkable of all even religiously, the Persian contribution to this new Islamic civilization is of immense importance. The work of Iranians can be seen in every field of cultural endeavor, including Arabic poetry, to which poets of Iranian origin composing their poems in Arabic made a very significant contribution."[44] Science, medicine, philosophy and technology in the newly Islamized Iranian society was influenced by and based on the scientific model of the major pre-Islamic Iranian universities in the Sassanian Empire. During this period hundreds of scholars and scientists vastly contributed to technology, science and medicine, later influencing the rise of European science during the Renaissance.[45]
     

    Ibn Khaldun wrote in his work Muqaddimah (1377) that most Muslim contributions were generally the works of Persians specifically:[46]

     


    Most of the ḥadîth scholars who preserved traditions for the Muslims also were Persians, or Persian in language and upbringing, because the discipline was widely cultivated in the 'Irâq and the regions beyond. Furthermore all the scholars who worked in the science of the principles of jurisprudence were Persians. The same applies to speculative theologians and to most Qur'ân commentators. Only the Persians engaged in the task of preserving knowledge and writing systematic scholarly works. Thus, the truth of the following statement by the Prophet becomes apparent: 'If scholarship hung suspended in the highest parts of heaven, the Persians would attain it.'
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age

    Yeah, the Arabs have always had a deep underlying fear, I think, that Persians would somehow take their one true contribution to world culture–Islam–and make it more Persian than Arab. This became especially true after Persian was “converted” to Twelver Shiism in the 16th century.

    When we look at Saudi obsessiveness about Iran, it’s impossible to explain it any other way, because Iran isn’t really in a position to become the “hegemony” of the region despite all the polemics to the contrary.

    Even many secular Sunni leaders seem to share this feeling in one form or another.

    • Replies: @anat
    +10000
  52. @Reg Cæsar

    A lack of genetic diversity would lead to a de-evolutionary mutant state.
     
    Why is everybody picking on poor West Virginia today?

    It’s where people are truly homogeneous from true isolation that people are uniformly handsome. At the extremes of the ecumene.

  53. @syonredux

    Among the various countries and cultures conquered through successive Islamic conquests, a remarkable number of scientists originated from Persia, who contributed immensely to the scientific flourishing of the Islamic Golden Age. According to Bernard Lewis: "Culturally, politically, and most remarkable of all even religiously, the Persian contribution to this new Islamic civilization is of immense importance. The work of Iranians can be seen in every field of cultural endeavor, including Arabic poetry, to which poets of Iranian origin composing their poems in Arabic made a very significant contribution."[44] Science, medicine, philosophy and technology in the newly Islamized Iranian society was influenced by and based on the scientific model of the major pre-Islamic Iranian universities in the Sassanian Empire. During this period hundreds of scholars and scientists vastly contributed to technology, science and medicine, later influencing the rise of European science during the Renaissance.[45]
     

    Ibn Khaldun wrote in his work Muqaddimah (1377) that most Muslim contributions were generally the works of Persians specifically:[46]

     


    Most of the ḥadîth scholars who preserved traditions for the Muslims also were Persians, or Persian in language and upbringing, because the discipline was widely cultivated in the 'Irâq and the regions beyond. Furthermore all the scholars who worked in the science of the principles of jurisprudence were Persians. The same applies to speculative theologians and to most Qur'ân commentators. Only the Persians engaged in the task of preserving knowledge and writing systematic scholarly works. Thus, the truth of the following statement by the Prophet becomes apparent: 'If scholarship hung suspended in the highest parts of heaven, the Persians would attain it.'
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age

    Muḥammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī[note 1] (Persian: Muḥammad Khwārizmī محمد بن موسى خوارزمی‎; c. 780 – c. 850), Arabized as al-Khwarizmi with al- and formerly Latinized as Algorithmi, was a Persian[3][4][5] scholar who produced works in mathematics, astronomy, and geography. Around 820 AD he was appointed as the astronomer and head of the library of the House of Wisdom in Baghdad.[6]:14

    Al-Khwarizmi’s popularizing treatise on algebra (The Compendious Book on Calculation by Completion and Balancing, c. 813–833 CE[7]:171) presented the first systematic solution of linear and quadratic equations. One of his principal achievements in algebra was his demonstration of how to solve quadratic equations by completing the square, for which he provided geometric justifications.[6]:14 Because he was the first to treat algebra as an independent discipline and introduced the methods of “reduction” and “balancing” (the transposition of subtracted terms to the other side of an equation, that is, the cancellation of like terms on opposite sides of the equation),[8] he has been described as the father[3][9][10] or founder[11][12] of algebra. The term algebra itself comes from the title of his book (specifically the word al-jabr meaning “completion” or “rejoining”).[13] His name gave rise to the terms algorism and algorithm.[14] His name is also the origin of (Spanish) guarismo[15] and of (Portuguese) algarismo, both meaning digit.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Musa_al-Khwarizmi

    Omar Khayyam (/kaɪˈjɑːm/; Persian: عمر خیّام‎ [oˈmæɾ xæjˈjɒːm]; 18 May 1048 – 4 December 1131) was a Persian mathematician, astronomer, and poet.[3][4][5] He was born in Nishapur, in northeastern Iran, and spent most of his life near the court of the Karakhanid and Seljuq rulers in the period which witnessed the First Crusade.

    As a mathematician, he is most notable for his work on the classification and solution of cubic equations, where he provided geometric solutions by the intersection of conics.[6] Khayyam also contributed to the understanding of the parallel axiom.[7]:284 As an astronomer, he designed the Jalali calendar, a solar calendar with a very precise 33-year intercalation cycle.[8][9]:659

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khayyam

  54. @Oscar Peterson
    Yeah, the Arabs have always had a deep underlying fear, I think, that Persians would somehow take their one true contribution to world culture--Islam--and make it more Persian than Arab. This became especially true after Persian was "converted" to Twelver Shiism in the 16th century.

    When we look at Saudi obsessiveness about Iran, it's impossible to explain it any other way, because Iran isn't really in a position to become the "hegemony" of the region despite all the polemics to the contrary.

    Even many secular Sunni leaders seem to share this feeling in one form or another.

    +10000

  55. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:

    I have met two kinds of Iranians, either really sharp or really not sharp at all.

    But the really sharp ones are still not Western. That can be charming in small doses but if very many of them come here it will destroy any hope Iran has of making progress and it will cause problems for us. The not very bright ones are the same problem as Arabs.

    Persians in Persia, Arabs in Arabia, us over here. That kind of arrangement works best for all.

  56. @Anonymous
    Isn't it the other way around? That European farmers came largely from the Iranian plateau, that event being known as the 'Indo-European' invasion? I think you're thinking of India. That said, there are clearly many other ancient groups on the territory of Iran apart from the original 'Iranians'.

    No.

    You’re the one who’s got it ass-backwards.

    Ultimately, the Aryans were of the Sintashta Culture – which was a development of the European Corded Ware Culture. The ultimate, deep roots of the Corded Ware people is from a hybrid population in what is now European Russia.

  57. @SDC
    Iran is a shortening of the Middle Persian "Eranshahr", which is itself a shortening of the Old Persian "Kshatriya Aryana" which means "Land of the Aryans". It almost certainly explains Jewish animus.

    In the shah’s day Israel and Iran were very close.

  58. @Anonymous
    Of course the original 'real' Iranian people were 'proper' white people - with light skin, light hair and light eyes - who came originally from Europe, by way of central Asia. The familiar 'dark' Iranians that we see to day, represent the pre Aryan population of the territory of Iran.
    Now, it appears that the Aryan contribution to the Iranian gene pool was, essentially, minimal.

    You don’t know anything.

    The people you’re calling “Aryans” from “Europe” were half Iran Neolithic/Caucasus Hunter Gatherer, which was almost genetically identical to modern “dark” Iranians and Armenians. And the other half was a mix of European Hunter Gatherer and Ancient North Eurasian, which were both related to East Asians and Native Americans. The DNA evidence says the “Aryans” were largely brunet in pigmentation.

    And that’s not even counting all the Anatolian Neolithic ancestry in Europe (including Northern Europe) that was also Middle Eastern and brunet.

    • Replies: @Mtina
    Very well said. The Max Plank Institute and geneticist David Reich both hypothesize now that Iran was the PIE homeland.
  59. @Tertius
    Thanks Rebel0007 from a born and bred Mountaineer. But I have to concede the truth of Reg Caesar's uncharitable post. Brain drain and out migration of the young and talented have hit WV hard...it isn't all about Opioids and Coal. And there's that strange sensation of sitting in the waiting area of a hub airport for the commuter flight back to the hills, glancing around and thinking, "You know, people from WV really do look different".

    I used to be able to correctly identify the gate for the flight that was heading for Philadelphia with astonishing precision maybe 25 years ago. I don’t fly domestically too much anymore, so I couldn’t say if that’s still possible. Come to think of it, I don’t think I could identify the gate that was heading for Dublin, Ireland anymore, based on last week’s experience.

  60. @Anonymous
    Of course the original 'real' Iranian people were 'proper' white people - with light skin, light hair and light eyes - who came originally from Europe, by way of central Asia. The familiar 'dark' Iranians that we see to day, represent the pre Aryan population of the territory of Iran.
    Now, it appears that the Aryan contribution to the Iranian gene pool was, essentially, minimal.

    “Now, it appears that the Aryan contribution to the Iranian gene pool was, essentially, minimal.” Except for the fact, the Max Plank Institute and geneticist David Reich both hypothesize now that Iranian was the PIE homeland.

  61. @T.Chris
    You don't know anything.

    The people you're calling "Aryans" from "Europe" were half Iran Neolithic/Caucasus Hunter Gatherer, which was almost genetically identical to modern "dark" Iranians and Armenians. And the other half was a mix of European Hunter Gatherer and Ancient North Eurasian, which were both related to East Asians and Native Americans. The DNA evidence says the "Aryans" were largely brunet in pigmentation.

    And that's not even counting all the Anatolian Neolithic ancestry in Europe (including Northern Europe) that was also Middle Eastern and brunet.

    Very well said. The Max Plank Institute and geneticist David Reich both hypothesize now that Iran was the PIE homeland.

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