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From ScreenRant:

15 Movies With No Female Characters Whatsoever

Forget passing the Bechdel Test – some films don’t even make it to the “have a woman character” part.

BY ALEX LEADBEATER
JAN 28, 2017

One of the most popular ways to measure how well-balanced a film is in terms of gender representation is the Bechdel Test. Named after Alison Bechdel, the comic artist who created it, it features three simple classifications that surprisingly few movies meet: the movie has to have (1) at least two women in it, (2) who talk to each other, (3) about something besides a man. It’s not a perfect measure, but does work as a good metric to see how cinema in general is treating female characters; in 2016, over half of the year’s highest grossing films passed the test.

However, some movies don’t even get close to passing the first hurdle; they have no women characters at all. Normally it’s in period war movies or other isolated situations where historically only men would appear, but some examples are a little more egregious. Here are fifteen of the most striking cases.

To qualify for the list, a film has to have no named or speaking female roles – extras in crowd scenes or allusions to unseen women are allowed as they (if anything) highlight a missed opportunity.

Counting down from #15 to #1:

The Thing
The Great Escape
First Blood
My Dinner With Andre
12 Angry Men
No Escape
All Is Lost
The Enemy Below
The Lord Of The Flies
Sleuth
Glengarry Glen Ross
Outpost
Master And Commander: The Far Side Of The World
Billy Budd
Lawrence Of Arabia

I’d probably vote for Lawrence of Arabia as the greatest movie of all time. Women have no lines in it, although they are allowed to ululate.

The top two are fairly gay.

I tried reading Moby Dick for the first time last week, but Melville’s facetious tone didn’t do anything for me.

I’m sure if I kept at it I’d figure out a lot about Melville’s influence on 20th Century authors. But then I got to the big gay part where the innkeeper of the Spouter Inn tells Ishmael there’s no room at the inn, unless he agrees to share a bed with a harpooner. Ishmael spends many pages obsessing over his upcoming harpooner bedmate that I skipped over. The next chapter begins:

Upon waking the next morning, I found Queequeg’s arm thrown over me in the most loving and affectionate manner. You had almost thought I had been his wife.

Okaaaay …

 
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  1. Normally it’s in period war movies or other isolated situations where historically only men would appear, but some examples are a little more egregious.

    The word “egregious” is egregiously misused in the modern times of trueblue mindrot.

    Master And Commander: The Far Side Of The World

    Actually, there was a lady of the shore looking for business in one scene.

    Although females on sailing ships make for interesting stories

    • Replies: @donut
    @El Dato

    I've posted this before here but it's an amazing legit story with a for real female heroine pregnant and alone with a mutinous chief mate and a doubtful crew accomplishing an amazing feat of seamanship all at the age of 19 . It would make a better movie than any of the absurd "strong woman crap" that's out now .

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Ann_Brown_Patten

    And if they want to make a movie about a real negro hero they could try Nigger Britt Johnson :

    https://dudleysdiary.blogspot.com/2018/02/the-killing-of-britt-johnson-frontier_15.html

    , @Allen
    @El Dato

    The motif of a woman who disguises herself as a sailor/soldier is surprisingly common in folk music. The most well-known example is Jack-a-roe (frequently covered by the Grateful Dead and occasionally by Bob Dylan). Other examples would include Martinmas Time (wonderfully performed by Andy Irvine and Paul Brady) and the Handsome Cabin Boy (good versions by Jerry Garcia and Dave Grisman as well as Kate Bush).

    Overall, there doesn't seem to be any particular social/political message behind the woman in disguise motif, merely a method for dramatic storytelling or humor.
    (the girl in Jack-a-roe disguises herself to go search for her fiancé who never returned home from war; the girl in Martinmas Time disguises herself to protect her chastity from harassing soldiers; meanwhile the girl in the handsome cabin boy disguise herself to get on a ship but is discovered by the crew after the captain gets her pregnant).

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    , @Dissident
    @El Dato


    Actually, there was a lady of the shore looking for business in one scene.
    Although females on sailing ships make for interesting stories.
     
    Such and similar themes are found in a number of the episodes of the masterful old time radio drama the Voyage of the Scarlet Queen.

    The word “egregious” is egregiously misused in the modern times of trueblue mindrot.
     
    When it comes to words that are widely misused, egregious would be far from alone.

    One thing that's not overused, at least not here among the iSteve-atariat and other corners of Unzistan is , if I may be so bold as to say it, the MORE! tag. Whether for a risque image (as in this case); for more than two or three images or videos even if completely innocuous; for text of inordinate length; or for considerably off-topic content of any type that is of more than minimal length, the MORE! tag is a simple, easy-to-easy use courtesy that is no doubt appreciated by many.
  2. I had no idea the thing was gay.

    I tried reading Moby Dick for the first time last week, …

    I tried reading the Cliff Notes for Moby Dick for the first time during my junior year in high school. TLDR.

    • Replies: @SFG
    @Achmed E. Newman

    LOL. Thing is, back then you had nothing else to do for hours in the winter and long books were the way you got your money's worth. Not to mention all the endless descriptions that were probably a lot of fun when movies didn't exist (this is an insight I have never heard before Steve, TBH).

    "All golden and lovely it blazed in the sunset, with walls, temples, colonnades, and arched bridges of veined marble, silver-basined fountains of prismatic spray in broad squares and perfumed gardens, and wide streets marching between delicate trees and blossom-laden urns and ivory statues in gleaming rows; while on steep northward slopes climbed tiers of red roofs and old peaked gables harbouring little lanes of grassy cobbles. It was a fever of the gods; a fanfare of supernal trumpets and a clash of immortal cymbals..."

    Come on, Howie, get to the tentacles.

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon, @RichardTaylor, @Peter D. Bredon, @Jus' Sayin'..., @Achmed E. Newman, @syonredux

    , @El Dato
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Now try Céline, Journey to the End of the Night

    I actually read Moby Dick while not under duress. I can't remember that much though. After that, Arthur Gordon Pym. That stayed (but is a much thinner stack of paper).

    , @Old Prude
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Jeezus, you people are really something. Moby Dick is a great, fantastic noir novel. Absolutely a gem. All you boys have to say is "Look, it has the work "dick" in the title. It must be gay...tee hee."

    I recommend, if one was to purchase the book, get the version with the Rockwell Kent etchings. Uh, oh, now I get to hear the Men of Unz go on about Rockwell Kent being a gay commie.

    Replies: @vinteuil, @Achmed E. Newman

    , @Mikeja
    @Achmed E. Newman

    I wouldn’t know Billy Budd was gay if it weren’t for the Sopranos. “He was the ship’s florist”

    , @MEH 0910
    @Achmed E. Newman

    I think I get it now. The list is a countdown. Therefore, the top two that Steve refers to are on the bottom of the list. I think Steve is saying that Billy Budd and Lawrence of Arabia are fairly gay.

    I kept thinking it didn't make any sense for Steve to call The Thing gay.

    , @syonredux
    @Achmed E. Newman


    I tried reading Moby Dick for the first time last week, but Melville’s facetious tone didn’t do anything for me.
     
    If memory serves, Steve, you're not a Milton fan, which means that Melville will simply not be your cup of tea. That's unfortunate. Melville, at his best, is one of the greatest Anglophone authors:

    All visible objects, man, are but as pasteboard masks. But in each event — in the living act, the undoubted deed — there, some unknown but still reasoning thing puts forth the mouldings of its features from behind the unreasoning mask. If man will strike, strike through the mask! How can the prisoner reach outside except by thrusting through the wall? To me, the white whale is that wall, shoved near to me. Sometimes I think there’s naught beyond. But ’tis enough. He tasks me; he heaps me; I see in him outrageous strength, with an inscrutable malice sinewing it. That inscrutable thing is chiefly what I hate; and be the white whale agent, or be the white whale principal, I will wreak that hate upon him. Talk not to me of blasphemy, man; I’d strike the sun if it insulted me. For could the sun do that, then could I do the other; since there is ever a sort of fair play herein, jealousy presiding over all creations. But not my master, man, is even that fair play. Who’s over me? Truth hath no confines.
     

    Replies: @Bubba

  3. So, as a result of the lockdown, this year Sailer is … twelve? The Great Escape is gay? The Great Escape is gay but a movie about upper class Englishmen lending a hand to Arabs (literally how the book starts) and getting punished by grinning Turks is not by a camel’s one-day travel capacity the gayest thing on that list? Really? Democrats are talking freely about putting people in camps so this is the mood we strike?

    • Agree: fish, TWS
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @J.Ross

    By "the top two" on the list, I think Sailer means #1 and #2 i.e. "Billy Budd" and "Lawrence of Arabia," not "The Thing" and "The Great Escape."

    Replies: @Boko Fittleworth

    , @Russ
    @J.Ross


    So, as a result of the lockdown, this year Sailer is … twelve? The Great Escape is gay?
     
    Moreso a quirk in the article, methinks. He presented the womenless flicks from #15 to #1, and then asserts that the top two are gay. Not in list appearance but in ranking, the top two are Lawrence of Arabia and Melville's Billy Budd ... little quarrel there. Far more quarrel with The Thing (my favorite horror/sci-fi flick) and The Great Escape as gay -- I too initially misread his statement, which could have been better presented.

    The first movie I ever saw explicitly labeled as womenless was "Gorgo" -- an early 60s British ripoff of Godzilla. Hardly an epic.
    , @HA
    @J.Ross

    "So, as a result of the lockdown, this year Sailer is … twelve? The Great Escape is gay? "

    I realize I probably won't be the first to correct you and Bill B. and Old Prude, but no, the top two on the above list are actually "Billy Budd" and "Lawrence of Arabia" -- those are the ones he characterized as "fairly gay", and clearly, at least in the case of the latter, you agree.

    If you're going to be that vehemently judgmental, you ought to read more carefully before popping off (in particular, the sentence that clearly says: "Counting down from #15 to #1."

    Replies: @vhrm, @J.Ross

    , @SunBakedSuburb
    @J.Ross

    "Sailer is ... twelve?"

    Every so often we must step back from the serious business of blacks and the Proud Boy's rather gay street theater and slip back into preadolescence -- it's where the good vibes are. For example: I recently bought a ventriloquist dummy -- Danny O'Day, $57.97 -- just so my friend would see it sitting in the passenger seat as I drove into the parking lot at A-1 Comics. A couple of days later I jumped back into my Ford f-150 and found Danny waiting in his seat. He's my permanent passenger.

  4. I tried reading Moby Dick for the first time last week, but Melville’s facetious tone didn’t do anything for me.

    E.M.Forster was, I think, right about Moby Dick:

    Moby Dick is an easy book, as long as we read it as a yarn or an account of whaling interspersed with snatches of poetry. But as soon as we catch the song in it, it grows difficult and immensely
    important. Narrowed and hardened into words the spiritual theme of Moby Dick is as follows: a battle against evil conducted too long or in the wrong way. The White Whale is evil, and Captain Ahab is warped by constant pursuit until his knight-errantry turns into revenge. These are words—a symbol for the book if we want one— but they do not carry us much further than the acceptance of the book as a yarn—perhaps they carry us backwards, for they may mislead us into harmonizing the incidents, and so losing their roughness and richness. The idea of a contest we may retain: all action is a battle, the only happiness is peace. But contest between what? We get false if we say that it is between good and evil or between two unreconciled evils. The essential in Moby Dick, its prophetic song, flows athwart the action and the surface morality like an undercurrent. It lies outside words. Even at the end, when the ship has gone down with the bird of heaven pinned to its mast, and the empty coffin, bouncing up from the vortex, has carried Ishmael back to the world—even then we cannot catch the words of the song.
    ………………………….
    The extraordinary nature of the book appears in two of its early incidents—the sermon about Jonah and the friendship with Queequeg.

    The sermon has nothing to do with Christianity. It asks for endurance or loyalty without hope of reward.
    ……………………..
    I believe it is not a coincidence that the last ship we encounter at the end of the book before the final catastrophe should be called the Delight; a vessel of ill omen who has herself encountered Moby
    Dick and been shattered by him. But what the connection was in the prophet’s mind I cannot say, nor could he tell us.

    Immediately after the sermon, Ishmael makes a passionate alliance with the cannibal Queequeg, and it looks for a moment that the book is to be a saga of blood-brotherhood.

    But human relationships mean little to Melville, and after a grotesque and violent entry, Queequeg is almost forgotten. Almost—not quite. Towards the end he falls ill and a coffin is made for him which he does not occupy, as he recovers. It is this coffin, serving as a life-buoy, that saves Ishmael from the final whirlpool, and this again is no coincidence, but an unformulated connection that sprang up in Melville’s mind. Moby Dick is full of meanings: its meaning is a different problem. It is wrong to turn the Delight or the coffin into symbols, because even if the symbolism is correct, it silences the book. Nothing can be stated about Moby Dick except that it is a contest. The rest is song.

    Personally, my favorite Melville is Billy Budd, Bartleby & few other tales.

    • Replies: @Bubba
    @Bardon Kaldian

    If you want to read the real story about Moby Dick, then I highly recommend, In the Heart of the Sea: The Tragedy of the Whaleship Essex by Nathaniel Philbrick - it’s an excellent read. I think Herman Melville ends his novel where it should have started.

    https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41U6k55YmXL._SX329_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

    , @Kylie
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Very interesting comment by E.F. Forster on Moby Dick.

    I just reread Maurice last fall, after which I threw the book away (too many episodes of fainting and nosebleeds). I've only read Moby Dick once. But I consider a towering masterpiece. I was blessed in high school to have a teacher of Am Lit devote a semester to the study of the novel. It remains one of the most exciting times of my life.

    Frankly I like the world without women portrayed in the novel and don't have any problems with the intense friendships between men in it. Same-sex friendships routinely involving sleeping together, effusively affectionate language, with the opposite sex being more or less marginalized at times, was a feature of nineteenth century New England's culture, as anyone familiar with H. James's novels would know.

    , @Gabe Ruth
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Thanks for the quote, it's a book I could stand to read books about.

  5. I tried reading the Cliff Notes for Moby Dick for the first time during my junior year in high school. TLDR.

    https://www.amazon.com/Moby-Classics-Illustrated-Herman-Melville/dp/1906814376 —– Classics Comics rendering gets good reviews. 9 ratings at Amazon.

    • Replies: @James O'Meara
    @Clyde

    Actually, the John Huston/Ray Bradbury film is pretty good itself, and makes for a better set of Cliff Notes.

    , @Mike Tre
    @Clyde

    I can't find the clip, but who can forget Jake Taylor (Tom Berenger - who attended the same high school as my wife) reading the Moby Dick comic book in attempt to reclaim his former love (played by a somewhat homely looking Rene Russo)?

    https://youtu.be/DsQ6aM_RL7Q

  6. 1. Funny how when anybody talk about a film being good, they never start with a good script, competent direction, and then good acting. And I offer two reasons why there are far less Female than Male roles in films:
    A) Most Actresses aren’t very good.
    B) the Prancing Faggots of Hollywood don’t know women at all, do they?

    2. Since a new era of book burning is hard upon us, I will dedicate myself to taking out Moby Dick and The Scarlet Letter. Generations of schoolkids will thank me. Ok, they wont know who to thank, or why, but still……

    • Replies: @Inquiring Mind
    @theMann

    The Scarlet Letter is not about Puritan repression of expression and strumpet shaming and the male/female double standard.

    The book really isn't about its female character Hester, rather, it is about the two men in her life: the minister who had Game and the scholar who didn't, especially his sense of resentment. It is one book read in high school that is really about high school.

    High school students really need to read it, especially the men. Were this book understood, it would et banned quickly.

    , @Nicholas Stix
    @theMann

    “The story is king” is an old Hollywood adage, but I think you go it one better: Talent is king.

    If you look at the Golden Age of Hollywood talkies (1939-1955), you see staggering talent at every level, and no affirmative action.

    Look at my #1 talkie. Helmed by Willi Wyler, one of the greatest directors of all time. Robert E. Sherwood, one of the handful of greatest screenwriters (with Ben Hecht, Bob Riskin, Francis Ford Coppola and Ingemar Bergman), wrote the script. Greg Toland, the father of deep-focus cinematography (though Wyler asserted that Wyler was), was director of photography. It starred Myrna Loy, Freddie March, and Dana Andrews. Hugo Friedhofer delivered one of the most powerful scores ever.

    You can’t match that today, because the talent isn’t there. And even if they were, the commissars would never permit them to strut their stuff.

  7. Don’t get Barry Corbin (in character as Maurice Minnifield) going on Walt Whitman.

    • Agree: Bardon Kaldian
    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @The Alarmist

    The unique TV show. I have all the episodes on DVD & watched some of them 2-3 times.

  8. Zero women is absurd, but movies that are guy oriented with women as subsidiary, this works for a genre. Minority subsidiary also works for me. Lord knows there are thousands of movie makers these days with plenty of diversity. Let them make their black movies, brown movies, lesbian and gay movies…and they do!

    White male heteros deserve our own niche. Our own movies without the usual diverse, malingering, fractious, complainer characters. I am sick n tired of these aspiring NPCs that are just jaking it.

  9. I’m honestly not sure if in that era, given the lack of awareness of homosexuality men were a lot more willing to get close to each other like that because it wasn’t even on their gaydar…er, radar, or there actually was a lot more gay stuff going on than we like to admit.

    A lot of it was probably sublimated. Not giving into your sexual urges was actually admired at one point.

    • Agree: YetAnotherAnon, El Dato
    • Replies: @BB753
    @SFG

    Nowadays, young men seem accutely aware that older gay men might be hitting on them at any time, as it's homophobic not to be subjected to their courting.
    I don't look the part, but young straight men often shy away from me or display unease when I try to befriend them or when I am just being polite and making small conversation with them. Gays ruin everything. Male company, male friendship, male everything.

    Replies: @James O'Meara, @Marty, @Alexandros

    , @Hereward the Woke
    @SFG

    Probably both?

  10. This is Alison Bechdel. And she is a woman – real, genetic woman.

    Wow…… I mean: Wow

    • Disagree: Wilkey
    • Replies: @James O'Meara
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Talk about "rough trade." The phrase "rode hard and put up wet" comes to mind.

    , @Peter D. Bredon
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Call me Ishmael.

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob

    , @Russ
    @Bardon Kaldian


    This is Alison Bechdel. And she is a woman – real, genetic woman.
     
    May have an ancestor in common with Rachel Maddow.
    , @Mr. Anon
    @Bardon Kaldian

    And she is "comic artist"? Yeah, I'll bet she's real funny.

    , @Aardvark
    @Bardon Kaldian

    There has to be some study somewhere that confirms that women who choose to look like this are missing some estrogen, particularly the Estriol variant.

    , @Mike Tre
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Looks like the guy who got the tattoo on his face in The Hanover movies.

    , @donut
    @Bardon Kaldian

    EEK!

    , @Anon
    @Bardon Kaldian

    I've read Fun Home: A Family Tragicomic by Bechdel. Her family was a bunch of sick freaks. No wonder she turned out to be just as freakish.

    , @MBlanc46
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Not even ear-rings. Most dykes do wear ear-rings.

    , @Yancey Ward
    @Bardon Kaldian

    If she got a guy to put a ring on it, then she is smarter than Einstein.

  11. “…To the last I grapple with thee; from Hell’s heart I stab at thee; for hate’s sake I spit my last breath at thee…”

    Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi from her cover letter to the latest Articles of Impeachment.

  12. What I remember about Moby Duck the novel is the clam chowder description. The John Huston movie with a Gregory Peck is pretty good. I saw it at a Nantucket church.

  13. @Achmed E. Newman
    I had no idea the thing was gay.

    I tried reading Moby Dick for the first time last week, ...
     
    I tried reading the Cliff Notes for Moby Dick for the first time during my junior year in high school. TLDR.

    Replies: @SFG, @El Dato, @Old Prude, @Mikeja, @MEH 0910, @syonredux

    LOL. Thing is, back then you had nothing else to do for hours in the winter and long books were the way you got your money’s worth. Not to mention all the endless descriptions that were probably a lot of fun when movies didn’t exist (this is an insight I have never heard before Steve, TBH).

    “All golden and lovely it blazed in the sunset, with walls, temples, colonnades, and arched bridges of veined marble, silver-basined fountains of prismatic spray in broad squares and perfumed gardens, and wide streets marching between delicate trees and blossom-laden urns and ivory statues in gleaming rows; while on steep northward slopes climbed tiers of red roofs and old peaked gables harbouring little lanes of grassy cobbles. It was a fever of the gods; a fanfare of supernal trumpets and a clash of immortal cymbals…”

    Come on, Howie, get to the tentacles.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    @SFG

    Dream-Quest Of Unknown Kadath is a great book, it would be a superb sci-fi film, although the stout black men of Parg, sold by the pound to be eaten by the moonbeasts, might "present issues" today.

    "it’s in period war movies or other isolated situations where historically only men would appear"

    Funny, it doesn't stop them in period plays/films/TV where historically only whites would appear!

    , @RichardTaylor
    @SFG

    It makes sense that part of the reason those 19th century novels are so long and spend pages to describe someone's face is because what else were you going to do with your evening?

    But they make tedious reading today (at least to me).

    Seems reasonable that fiction books will have to be tighter in the future to compete with all the other stuff out there. Even most non-fiction books are way too long, too much filler.

    , @Peter D. Bredon
    @SFG

    That's where HPL's "anti-semitism" comes from: dealing with Jewish editors.

    "Enough chin music, make with the tentacles already!"

    Seriously, read his comments on the editor of Weird Tales.

    Replies: @SFG

    , @Jus' Sayin'...
    @SFG


    “All golden and lovely it blazed in the sunset, with walls, temples, colonnades, and arched bridges of veined marble, silver-basined fountains of prismatic spray in broad squares and perfumed gardens, and wide streets marching between delicate trees and blossom-laden urns and ivory statues in gleaming rows; while on steep northward slopes climbed tiers of red roofs and old peaked gables harbouring little lanes of grassy cobbles. It was a fever of the gods; a fanfare of supernal trumpets and a clash of immortal cymbals…”
     
    The prolixity of pulp magazine fiction owed a lot to the fact that writers were paid by the word. A lot of 19th century literature was serialized. The longer individual novels were the more income was generated for both the magazine's publisher and the writer.
    , @Achmed E. Newman
    @SFG

    In the age you mention, way before the www, it was always science fiction and non fiction (science, usually) that I would spend my time with, when it was up to me. I've read some great classic Sci-Fi.

    , @syonredux
    @SFG

    Ah, Lovecraft in Dunsanian mode, gorgeous stuff. Of course, for sheer verbal pyrotechnics, Clark Ashton Smith is hard to beat:


    On Zothique, the last continent on Earth, the sun no longer shone with the whiteness of its prime, but was dim and tarnished as if with a vapor of blood. New stars without number had declared themselves in the heavens, and the shadows of the infinite had fallen closer. And out of the shadows, the older gods had returned to man: the gods forgotten since Hyperborea, since Mu and Poseidonis, bearing other names but the same attributes. And the elder demons had also returned, battening on the fumes of evil sacrifice, and fostering again the primordial sorceries.
     

    Replies: @Peter D. Bredon, @SFG

  14. “I’d probably vote for Lawrence of Arabia as the greatest movie of all time.”

    Oh, come on Steve. At least half dozen that were way better. Roshomon. Wild Strawberries. The Seventh Seal. The Godfather. Citizen Kane. The Searchers. Even Taxi Driver. Birth of a Nation is another one.

    “The top two are fairly gay.”

    So is Lawrence, btw. Homoerotically to the max.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Yoji, The "Godfather" is great and could have been made without a female role and "Saving Private Ryan" has no women to speak of but it is a guy flick and "Lawrence" is in my top 10. Not too crazy about romantic movies but for a movie with women in major roles I'll take "The Graduate."

    Replies: @SunBakedSuburb, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @prosa123

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi


    “The top two are fairly gay.”

    So is Lawrence, btw. Homoerotically to the max.
     
    Do they show him being beaten at breakfast by his camel boy? As in real life?

    How many people convert to both Islam and BDSM?

    Dashcams show Mecca to be like any other modern commercial city. (You ain't missin' nothin' by being banned.) How robust is the gay scene there?



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_j0EflVRZo

    If you're interested and you've got an hour and a half to spare, Mecca may be in the wrong spot.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Lot, @prosa123, @Bubba

    , @Ancient Briton
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    As Noel Cowerd wrly noted, if Peter O'Toole were any prettier they could have called it Florence of Arabia.
    Zulu had many non-speaking dusky maidens and one prototype nice white lady with too much to say.

  15. @SFG
    I'm honestly not sure if in that era, given the lack of awareness of homosexuality men were a lot more willing to get close to each other like that because it wasn't even on their gaydar...er, radar, or there actually was a lot more gay stuff going on than we like to admit.

    A lot of it was probably sublimated. Not giving into your sexual urges was actually admired at one point.

    Replies: @BB753, @Hereward the Woke

    Nowadays, young men seem accutely aware that older gay men might be hitting on them at any time, as it’s homophobic not to be subjected to their courting.
    I don’t look the part, but young straight men often shy away from me or display unease when I try to befriend them or when I am just being polite and making small conversation with them. Gays ruin everything. Male company, male friendship, male everything.

    • Agree: Servant of Gla'aki
    • Replies: @James O'Meara
    @BB753

    Well, if you (or the Tribe) tell them that not only is it the Greatest of All Sins but that if you’re approached by a homosexual you’re probably One of Them yourself, that's what happens. Now, if you were Walter White, propositioning Jesse Pinkman to join him in a meth operation, that would be manly and OK, right?

    How would a real, old-school WASP manly man handle it? Here’s how Lauren Bacall tells it:

    "Noel Coward and Bogie were guests of Clifton Webb one weekend. Bogie and Noël were assigned to the same room and Noël was gay, as everybody on Earth knew, but nobody cared, because he was so great. Just to be in his presence was quite enough. And at the end of the evening one night, they were changing into their PJs to hit the sack. Bogie was sitting on the edge of the bed, and at one point put his hand on Noël’s knee. Bogie said: ‘Noël, I have to tell you that if I had my druthers and I liked guys you would be the one I’d want to be with. But, unfortunately, I like girls.’ And from that moment on Noël never mentioned it, and Bogie never mentioned it. Class behavior! And they became fast, fast friends."

    I like how Bogie just assumes that Noel would come on to him; he is Bogart, after all, the ultimate Male. But Bogart is mainly concerned with being polite and sparing Noel’s feelings, like the old NYC aristo he was. (Was it Queen Victoria who drank from a finger bowl after a guest did so?). A manly Man of Unz would likely cave in his skull with an ashtray.
    Sleeping in the same bed! Shades of Ishmael!

    , @Marty
    @BB753

    My college friends and I found ourselves in a hotel elevator with Paul Lynde in Dallas in 1978. He was appearing at a VFW convention. Either those war heroes didn’t know Lynde was gay, or they didn’t care. By the way, he was built like a linebacker. Oops, didn’t mean it that way.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    , @Alexandros
    @BB753

    I can no longer be called a young white man, but from the time I was, every single encounter with a "friendly older man" turned out to be a faggot who wanted my ass (I assume). I'm not surprised to hear the younger generation adjusting.

    Also, every black man who ever approached me wanted money. And they wonder why there is such a thing as stereotypes.

    Replies: @BB753

  16. “I tried reading Moby Dick for the first time last week, but Melville’s facetious tone didn’t do anything for me.” Philistine .

    Das Boot should be on your list as well .

    • Replies: @68W58
    @donut

    Das Boot does have the lounge singer from the opening scene, but she is only a bit part. Stalag 17 has the Russian female prisoners, but they are pretty much the same. Battleground has the female nurses in Bastogne and Mister Roberts has the nurses and that one native female. All war movies, but all great flicks. Doctor Zhivago probably fails the Becbtel test. Because while it has plenty of female characters I don’t remember two of them having a conversation, much less one not about a man.

    , @I, Libertine
    @donut

    Das Boot. The only WW II flick that had me rooting for the Germans. It’s that good.

    Replies: @Gordo, @Peter Akuleyev

  17. Selected dialogue from Billy Budd:

    Billy Budd: No man can take pleasure in cruelty.
    Claggert: No? Tell me, do you fear the lash?
    Billy Budd: [nods] Aye.

    Billy Budd: I think that sometimes you hate yourself. I was thinking, sir, the nights are lonely. Perhaps I could talk with you between watches when you’ve nothing else to do.
    Claggert: Lonely. What do you know of loneliness?
    Billy Budd: Them’s alone that want to be.
    Claggert: Nights are long — conversation helps pass the time.
    Billy Budd: Can I talk to you again, then? It would mean a lot to me.
    Claggert: Perhaps to me, too. [his expression suddenly turns suspicious and sours] Oh, no. You would charm me too, huh? Get away.
    Billy Budd: Sir?
    Claggert: Get — away!

    Denial is not a river in Eygpt.

    • Replies: @slumber_j
    @black sea

    The best thing by far in Billy Budd (which I otherwise didn't have much use for) is the poem "Billy In the Darbies" at the end, which I liked so much that I memorized it a long time ago.

    Spoiler alert, the last line is great: "I am sleepy, and the oozy weeds about me twist."

  18. I stopped at the same point of Moby Dick. Five pages of “do I get in bed with spear guy or not” was too much for me. And I’m probably a simpleton, but I absolutely hate the 18th century style of sentences broken only by commas, that never end, that go on and on, forever, it seems. If any of you guys invents a time machine I need to borrow it for a few minutes. I’m going back in time to meet Edward Gibbon. I’m going to grab him by the scruff of the neck and slap him back and forth while saying, “Short. Choppy. Sentences. Motherfucker.”

    • Agree: martin_2
    • LOL: Rob McX
    • Replies: @Peter D. Bredon
    @Cool Daddy Jimbo

    “Another damn'd thick, square book! Always, scribble, scribble, scribble! Eh! Mr. Gibbon? -- Duke of Glouster (on publication of Vol. 1 of The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire”)

    , @Polynikes
    @Cool Daddy Jimbo

    There’s a reason Hemmingway took the literary world by storm.

    , @Etruscan Film Star
    @Cool Daddy Jimbo

    My feeling exactly as I read Proust's In Search of Lost Time. Some sentences in it were like novels themselves, or the route taken by a cab-driving crook to run up the fare on the meter. Maybe a masterpiece like everyone says, but a comma-splice endurance test.

    Replies: @Peter D. Bredon

  19. Bechdel is/was a lesbian, so her idea of a good movie is probably filled with women talking about their lesbian relationships. I don’t really get why that stupid “test” even got famous.

    Films with men only or mostly are usually adventure movies, so they are fun. Films with women only are boring (even romantic comedies need a male part).

    Melville’s “Bartebly the Scrivener” is pretty good. “Moby Dick” is too long.

    Melville was a sailor for a while (worked on a merchant ship), so I guess he saw a lot of homosexual stuff going on. Ships are like prisons in a way, many men living without women around, some try to find alternatives.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    @Dumbo

    "many men living without women around, some try to find alternatives"

    A pox on thee for a scurvy knave, can't ye wait til we make Liverpool?


    I spent the night with Angeline too drunk to roll in bed
    Me watch was new and me money too, in the morning with them she fled
    And as I walked the streets about, the whores they all did roar
    There goes Jack Spratt, the poor sailor lad, he must go to sea once more

    Once more, boys, once more, go to sea once more
    There goes Jack Spratt , the poor sailor lad, he must go to sea once more
     

    (If they all looked like Bechdel, I'd be happy with no women in films. What would be the point?)

    Dennis Dale - they do send women to Antarctica these days. "A World Of Men" by Wally Herbert is a great memoir of when they didn't, and had base leaders who could bend traffic signs or carry a full grown husky under each arm.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wally_Herbert

    "During the course of his polar career, which spanned more than 50 years, he spent 15 years in the wilderness regions of the polar world. He travelled with dog teams and open boats well over 23,000 miles – more than half of that distance through unexplored areas"

    Replies: @Ray P

  20. Twelve Angry Men

    SCTV Network

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    @MEH 0910

    Was Al Goldstein an alternate juror?

    , @Paul Jolliffe
    @MEH 0910

    You know why this one parody of “12 Angry Men” from Amy Schumer’s show was great?

    Because she was hardly in it!

    http://www.cc.com/episodes/d6vl24/inside-amy-schumer-12-angry-men-inside-amy-schumer-season-3-ep-303

    , @Buffalo Joe
    @MEH 0910

    MEH, our local HS staged the play as "Twelve Angry Jurors." Now before anyone starts to riff on egual roles for women but not men, in HS it's hard to find 12 guys who want to be in a drama.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

  21. @MEH 0910
    Twelve Angry Men
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKxcIUNhgNg

    SCTV Network
     

    Replies: @The Alarmist, @Paul Jolliffe, @Buffalo Joe

    Was Al Goldstein an alternate juror?

  22. @SFG
    @Achmed E. Newman

    LOL. Thing is, back then you had nothing else to do for hours in the winter and long books were the way you got your money's worth. Not to mention all the endless descriptions that were probably a lot of fun when movies didn't exist (this is an insight I have never heard before Steve, TBH).

    "All golden and lovely it blazed in the sunset, with walls, temples, colonnades, and arched bridges of veined marble, silver-basined fountains of prismatic spray in broad squares and perfumed gardens, and wide streets marching between delicate trees and blossom-laden urns and ivory statues in gleaming rows; while on steep northward slopes climbed tiers of red roofs and old peaked gables harbouring little lanes of grassy cobbles. It was a fever of the gods; a fanfare of supernal trumpets and a clash of immortal cymbals..."

    Come on, Howie, get to the tentacles.

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon, @RichardTaylor, @Peter D. Bredon, @Jus' Sayin'..., @Achmed E. Newman, @syonredux

    Dream-Quest Of Unknown Kadath is a great book, it would be a superb sci-fi film, although the stout black men of Parg, sold by the pound to be eaten by the moonbeasts, might “present issues” today.

    “it’s in period war movies or other isolated situations where historically only men would appear”

    Funny, it doesn’t stop them in period plays/films/TV where historically only whites would appear!

  23. @Achmed E. Newman
    I had no idea the thing was gay.

    I tried reading Moby Dick for the first time last week, ...
     
    I tried reading the Cliff Notes for Moby Dick for the first time during my junior year in high school. TLDR.

    Replies: @SFG, @El Dato, @Old Prude, @Mikeja, @MEH 0910, @syonredux

    Now try Céline, Journey to the End of the Night

    I actually read Moby Dick while not under duress. I can’t remember that much though. After that, Arthur Gordon Pym. That stayed (but is a much thinner stack of paper).

  24. The Great Escape and Moby Dick are gay? How many cocktails did you have last night, Steve?

  25. No sniggering comments about the name “Moby Dick” yet?

    • Replies: @NickG
    @Escher

    Self refuting statement alert!

    , @Ghost of Bull Moose
    @Escher

    Queequeg, did you bring your harpoon to bed or are you just happy to see me?

    Replies: @black sea

  26. @Achmed E. Newman
    I had no idea the thing was gay.

    I tried reading Moby Dick for the first time last week, ...
     
    I tried reading the Cliff Notes for Moby Dick for the first time during my junior year in high school. TLDR.

    Replies: @SFG, @El Dato, @Old Prude, @Mikeja, @MEH 0910, @syonredux

    Jeezus, you people are really something. Moby Dick is a great, fantastic noir novel. Absolutely a gem. All you boys have to say is “Look, it has the work “dick” in the title. It must be gay…tee hee.”

    I recommend, if one was to purchase the book, get the version with the Rockwell Kent etchings. Uh, oh, now I get to hear the Men of Unz go on about Rockwell Kent being a gay commie.

    • Agree: Billy Shears
    • Replies: @vinteuil
    @Old Prude


    Jeezus, you people are really something.
     
    Well, yeah, the occasional philistinism of the dissident right sometimes gets me down.

    And yet - they're on to something, aren't they? I mean, what's up with the crazy over-representation of gay people in American literature (Dickinson, Melville, Whitman, Cather &c), and music (MacDowell, Copland, Barber &c) - to say nothing of the visual arts?

    Melville's Billy Budd is so gay that it just couldn't be any gayer - a fact not lost on England's last great composer, Sir Benjamin Britten:

    https://youtu.be/jMQ6UjiIPtk

    Replies: @James O'Meara

    , @Achmed E. Newman
    @Old Prude

    As a Philistine of Unz, O.P., I still think you should know from all my commenting here that I am facetious on here a lot. It's true that I didn't even read the Cliff Notes, but that's a 16 y/o boy for you. I will tell you in all honesty that as naive as I was at that age, that time, and that place, I would not have known about too much gay stuff, even if I had read the book. We all read Billy Budd (as in, I didn't opt out), and I don't remember anything about that. Teachers at that school did not mention anything about gayness, though I'm sure we used the word homo often an insult.

    Re: The Thing. I meant that movie as that was the top of the list. I should have capitalized it, of course. I've got no beef with Rockwell Kent, as I've never heard of him.

    I'm sure Moby Dick is a book I would enjoy now, but I have a list that keeps growing before I get to any 2" thick volume, many of them recommended by commenters here and on my blog. Right now, Age of Entitlement is what I'm carrying around.

  27. “Master And Commander: The Far Side Of The World” – an enjoyable movie but a tough read. I got about as far into the book as I got into Moby Dick which is: not very far.

  28. Moby Dick is far too long and tedious, but the content is oddly memorable. I could tell you quite alot about the 19th C whaling industry just from reading that book.

  29. This thread is way too gay, even for iSteve. Maybe we could add some movies where women just sit and talk to each other? That would be fun.

    https://nypost.com/2021/01/15/crying-whataboutism-doesnt-make-lefts-support-for-rioting-go-away/

    No, sorry. That’s not it. Hold on.

    See? They was doing the race thing way back when.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @HammerJack

    I've seen a few short, non-porn lesbian movies (whether you consider them to be "gay" is another question). Also, they seem rather monotonous ... alright- dull.



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbQhOWM6mfM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLTGbPI6hE0

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owOVbuhn4yc

  30. My opinion is somewhat different.

    Melville was not, in my view, a repressed homosexual (this idea is the one such a wise man as E.M.Forster- himself a homosexual- got wrong. Otherwise, Forster is right about most issues.) There is no indication for that, just modern & postmodern lascivious dirty mind snooping in other peoples’ lives plus annoying homo propaganda, which tends to distort our perception of man’s impulses & behavior in other historical times.

    But -enough with this marginal gay stuff.

    Moby Dick is a not a novel by normative standards; it is a hybrid of romance & anatomy (the best example of anatomy is Robert Burton’s The Anatomy of Melancholy; in Moby Dick these are long expatiations on whaling most readers find tiresome). Then, Melville is a prophetic writer -here, Forster was right – along with Dostoevsky, or all of Empedocles, many Plato’s dialogs, Nietzsche in Zarathustra, Jung in Septem Sermones & Marx and Engels in The Communist Manifesto.

    Prophecy is anchored in the archaic, primitive mind; speaking in accepted & a bit antiquated terms- a prophet is possessed by his daimon or god. He tries to articulate, with more or less success, through his rational mind the vision his gods or subliminal self or his partially & temporary deranged mind/brain have imparted/created.

    If one cannot “get” this kind of stuff- better drop it. Dump it. Forster, again…

    WITH prophecy in the narrow sense of foretelling the future we have no concern, and we have not much concern with it as an appeal for righteousness. What will interest us today—what we must respond to, for interest now becomes an inappropriate word—is an accent in the novelist’s voice, an accent for which the flutes and saxophones of fantasy may have prepared us. His theme is the universe, or something universal, but he is not necessarily going to “say” anything about the universe; he proposes to sing, and the strangeness of song arising in the halls of fiction is bound to give us a shock. How will song combine with the furniture of common sense? we shall ask ourselves, and shall have to answer “not too well”: the singer does not always have room for his gestures, the tables and chairs get broken, and the novel through which bardic influence has passed often has a wrecked air, like a drawing-room after an earthquake or a children’s party. Readers of D. H.
    Lawrence will understand what I mean.

    Prophecy—in our sense—is a tone of voice. It may imply any of the faiths that have haunted humanity—Christianity, Buddhism, dualism, Satanism, or the mere raising of human love and hatred to such a power that their normal receptacles no longer contain them: but what particular view of the universe is recommended—with that we are not directly concerned. It is the implication that signifies and will filter into the turns of the novelist’s phrase, and in this lecture, which promises to be so vague and grandiose, we may come nearer than elsewhere to the minutiae of style. We shall have to attend to the novelist’s state of mind and to the actual words he uses; we shall neglect as far as we can the problems of common sense. As far as we can: for all novels contain tables and chairs, and most readers of fiction look for them first. Before we condemn him for affectation and distortion we must realize his view point. He is not looking at the tables and chairs at all, and that is why they are out of focus. We only see what he does not focus—not what he does—and in our blindness we laugh at him.

    I have said that each aspect of the novel demands a different quality in the reader. Well, the prophetic aspect demands two qualities: humility and the suspension of the sense of humour.
    Humility is a quality for which I have only a limited admiration. In many phases of life it is a great mistake and degenerates into defensiveness or hypocrisy. But humility is in place just now.
    Without its help we shall not hear the voice of the prophet, and our eyes will behold a figure of fun instead of his glory.
    And the sense of humour—that is out of place: that estimable adjunct of the educated man must be laid aside. Like the school-children in the Bible, one cannot help laughing at a prophet—his bald head is so absurd—but one can discount the laughter and realize that it has no critical value and is merely food for bears.
    ……………………….
    So, though I believe this lecture is on a genuine aspect of the novel, not a fake aspect, I can only think of four writers to illustrate it—Dostoevsky, Melville, D. H. Lawrence and Emily Bronte. Emily Bronte shall be left to the last, Dostoevsky I have alluded to, Melville is the centre of our picture, and the centre of Melville is Moby Dick.

    • Thanks: Franz
    • Replies: @David
    @Bardon Kaldian

    He wasn't repressed. He dared readers to call him on it in his first book.


    At first Kory-Kory goes to work quite leisurely, but gradually quickens his pace, and waxing warm in the employment, drives the stick furiously along the smoking channel, plying his hands to and fro with amazing rapidity, the perspiration starting from every pore. As he approaches the climax of his effort, he pants and gasps for breath, and his eyes almost start from their sockets with the violence of his exertions. This is the critical stage of the operation; all his previous labours are vain if he cannot sustain the rapidity of the movement until the reluctant spark is produced. Suddenly he stops, becoming perfectly motionless. His hands still retain their hold of the smaller stick, which is pressed convulsively against the further end of the channel among the fine powder there accumulated, as if he had just pierced through and through some little viper that was wriggling and struggling to escape from his clutches. The next moment a delicate wreath of smoke curls spirally into the air, the heap of dusty particles glows with fire, and Kory-Kory, almost breathless, dismounts from his steed.
     
    , @Inquiring Mind
    @Bardon Kaldian

    One name for iSteve readers:

    Caitlin Doughty of "Ask a Mortician"

    Here is her longish account of the Essex Disaster where a whale rammed and sank a whaling ship on the open ocean, said to be the "true story" inspiring Moby Dick:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QS299VkXZxI&feature=emb_logo

  31. Escape from Alcatraz and The Shawshank Redemption (basically the same movie)

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @Mike Tre

    Mike, in SR no one notices the gapping hole in the cell wall covered by a painting, even though the cell was vacant while he was in the "hole."

    Replies: @Mike Tre

  32. @SFG
    @Achmed E. Newman

    LOL. Thing is, back then you had nothing else to do for hours in the winter and long books were the way you got your money's worth. Not to mention all the endless descriptions that were probably a lot of fun when movies didn't exist (this is an insight I have never heard before Steve, TBH).

    "All golden and lovely it blazed in the sunset, with walls, temples, colonnades, and arched bridges of veined marble, silver-basined fountains of prismatic spray in broad squares and perfumed gardens, and wide streets marching between delicate trees and blossom-laden urns and ivory statues in gleaming rows; while on steep northward slopes climbed tiers of red roofs and old peaked gables harbouring little lanes of grassy cobbles. It was a fever of the gods; a fanfare of supernal trumpets and a clash of immortal cymbals..."

    Come on, Howie, get to the tentacles.

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon, @RichardTaylor, @Peter D. Bredon, @Jus' Sayin'..., @Achmed E. Newman, @syonredux

    It makes sense that part of the reason those 19th century novels are so long and spend pages to describe someone’s face is because what else were you going to do with your evening?

    But they make tedious reading today (at least to me).

    Seems reasonable that fiction books will have to be tighter in the future to compete with all the other stuff out there. Even most non-fiction books are way too long, too much filler.

    • Agree: Lot
  33. The Thing was gay? That’s new.

    • Replies: @Peter D. Bredon
    @Aeronerauk

    "The Thing," huh huh, huh huh.

  34. I watched “Saving Private Ryan” again last night for the 17th time.

    It should have made the list.
    That movie has some nice touches, dialogue that has little to do with war, but accurately shows how men speak.

    The gripe scene:

    The Edith Piaf scene:

  35. Lord of the Flies: a group of school boys stranded on an island. Obviously no women. Now, they hadn’t quite reached puberty yet. If they’d stayed on that island until they did reach puberty – being English public school boys, and no girls around – there would have been a lot of buggery. An orgy of PC.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @TBA

    I've addressed this before ....

    Would Lord of the Flies have any meaning with girls instead of boys?

    Well: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/15-hilarious-women-respond-to-the-all-female-lord-of-the-flies-remake_n_59a80f16e4b010ca289aa631

    https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2020/12/the-wilds-tv-show-review-lord-of-the-flies-amazon
    ………………

    “The all-female Lord of the Flies will just be a group of young women apologizing to each other over and over till everyone is dead,” wrote Jessica Valenti.) Still more argued the opposite—that we’ve already seen plenty of stories about what happens when teenage girls form their own sub-societies and unleash their cruelty upon one another. Lord of the Flies with girls would be almost too real, they said, echoing an old John Mulaney joke about how women just don’t get along: “Ocean’s 11 with women wouldn’t work, because two would keep breaking off to talk shit about the other nine.”

    Feminist author Roxane Gay tweeted, “An all women remake of Lord of the Flies makes no sense because… the plot of that book wouldn’t happen with all women.”

    Replies: @Gordo

    , @Dissident
    @TBA


    Lord of the Flies: a group of school boys stranded on an island. Obviously no women. Now, they hadn’t quite reached puberty yet. If they’d stayed on that island until they did reach puberty – being English public school boys, and no girls around – there would have been a lot of buggery.
     
    The boys' killing of the sow is widely considered to be rife with erotic allegory.

    Incidentally, I came across the following piece of interest, from 2009:
    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2009/aug/16/william-golding-attempted-rape


    The Nobel laureate Sir William Golding, whose novel Lord of the Flies turned notions of childhood innocence on their head, admitted in private papers that he had tried to rape a 15-year-old girl during his teenage years, it emerged today.

    Golding's papers also described how he had experimented, while a teacher at a public school, with setting boys against one another in the manner of Lord of the Flies, which tells the story of young air crash survivors on a desert island during a nuclear war.

    The revelations will appear in a forthcoming biography of the writer, who died in 1993 at the age of 81.
    [...]

    It happened when he was 18 and on holiday during his first year at Oxford.
     

    Images below from
    https://bannedbooks386.wordpress.com/lord-of-the-flies-2/
    https://bannedbooks386.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/lord-of-the-flies-controversial-scenes.png
    https://bannedbooks386.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/img_4143.jpg
  36. I’m a big fan of Master and Commander, and I feel it’s a shame that it was not quite successful enough to launch a multi-part franchise.

    The article quite ridiculously dismisses Das Boot from the list due to a single onshore scene containing some nameless hookers (kind of the definition of nameless extras if you’d ask me), but frankly it is an excellent movie about war and the human condition and deserves to be watched ahead of pretty much anything excreted by Hollywood in the past five or ten years.

    Regarding Moby Dick: Reading it in high school is a waste. I think it actually should be read in adulthood, but perhaps the current era of hysteria and identity politics doesn’t make a good backdrop for it. Try again at another moment in our cultural history. The book has the whole human condition wrapped up in it — the sane, the mad, the comic, the tragic, and yes, even its fair share of homoeroticism.

    Perhaps the Melville for our time is Bartleby the Scrivener. Much shorter too.

    • Replies: @slumber_j
    @Ben Kurtz

    You're right about everything. And in addition to the whole human condition, Moby-Dick contains just about every sort of writing imaginable, including a sermon and a scientific treatise. You just have to let it wash over you.

    Replies: @Bu'bha al-Teksani

    , @SFG
    @Ben Kurtz

    Bartleby? I'd rather not.

    Replies: @Stan Adams

  37. Moby Dick is an excellent book, well worth making the effort to finish.

    • Agree: Kylie
  38. @MEH 0910
    Twelve Angry Men
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKxcIUNhgNg

    SCTV Network
     

    Replies: @The Alarmist, @Paul Jolliffe, @Buffalo Joe

    You know why this one parody of “12 Angry Men” from Amy Schumer’s show was great?

    Because she was hardly in it!

    http://www.cc.com/episodes/d6vl24/inside-amy-schumer-12-angry-men-inside-amy-schumer-season-3-ep-303

  39. By all means, let us remake “Lawrence of Arabia” with gender equity in mind.
    I could see Barbra Streisand for the King Feisal role.

    Who would play Lawrence’s two butt-boys?

  40. One of the most popular ways to measure how well-balanced a film is in terms of gender representation is the Bechdel Test.

    Films which don’t pass the Bechdel Test: the original Star Wars trilogy.

    Films which do pass the Bechdel test: the last, Disney Star Wars trilogy.

    Now tell me, which trilogy was better? Is it even a close call?

    Alison Bechdel has even stated that the test named for her isn’t always a reliable test for a good movie. Of course her test has a certain lesbian bias. You fail the test if the women talk about romantic interest in a man but pass if they talk about a romantic interest in each other (or some other woman), when the real (feminist) test should probably be whether or not the women contribute something important to the plot apart from just being romantic interests for anyone.

    Failing the Bechdel Test – or some black alternative version of it (I’m sure there is one out there somewhere) – may be a more reliable indicator of a good movie than passing it, as it shows the filmmaker didn’t feel it necessary to toss in a character, dialogue, or subplot that doesn’t really belong.

  41. It’s the Breaking Bad rule. Women detract from the narrative. Not because they’re women but because they’ve been cast in dreadful roles where they’re either yapping about trivial nonsense or pontificating from their (male created) soapbox. For better female roles, I suggest old films like Gun Crazy or Harriet Craig.

  42. Twilight’s Last Gleaming (1977) was a badly confused Seven Days in May type flick. But with an all-stud cast led by Burt Lancaster, Paul Winfield and Richard Widmark — with no women in sight whatsoever — it was the perfect few hours to clear the head after a tough breakup.

    It also featured one of my all-time favorite ad taglines — Winfield going, “We took on de powuh — de real powuh!”

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
    @Known Fact


    But with an all-stud cast led by Burt Lancaster, Paul Winfield and Richard Widmark —
     
    Paul Winfield was gay.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Winfield#Personal_life_and_death

    Winfield was gay, but remained discreet about it in the public eye. Prior to realizing his sexuality, he had a relationship with his Sounder co-star Cicely Tyson for 18 months.[10] His partner of 30 years, architect Charles Gillan Jr., died on March 5, 2002, of bone cancer.[11] Winfield long battled obesity and diabetes. He died of a heart attack in 2004 at age 64 at Queen of Angels – Hollywood Presbyterian Medical Center in Los Angeles.[12] Winfield and Gillan are interred together at Forest Lawn Memorial Park in Los Angeles.[13]
     

    Replies: @Known Fact

  43. My Dinner with Andre: consists almost entirely of two men talking with each other. Adding a woman character, such as a restaurant hostess, would have been possible, but with the focus being almost entirely upon the two men it would have been largely irrelevant.

    Great Escape: set entirely within a POW camp, an obviously all-male setting.

    Glengarry Glen Ross: a bunch of ultra-Alpha salesmen; and
    Lord of the Flies: young boys stranded on an island.
    Adding any female characters would have completely changed the dynamic of either movie.

    One that does stick out is Twelve Angry Men. Even in the 1950’s it seems odd that a jury wouldn’t have had any women.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @prosa123

    Yeah, because in the Perry Mason TV series during the same time frame, the juries always included some women jurors.

    , @Lot
    @prosa123

    Until the 1970s many states let women opt out of jury service. Those that didn’t still excused women more liberally. So they ended up as 1 to 25% of jury pools.

    My recollection of pre-75 courtroom scenes is women are usually on juries but much less than half.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

  44. Sergio Leone’s epic “Man With No Name” trilogy has no women characters that appear for more than a few seconds.

    Fourth season Rick and Morty has an episode that includes a spoof of the Bechdel Test.

    • Replies: @James O'Meara
    @Harry Baldwin

    Honest question: the "fourth" part of the trilogy, Once Upon a Time in America, of course has Claudia Cardinale. Does she detract from the film? She seems essential to the ending, depicting the domestication of the "wild" West. (Women may have "ruined" the Wild West but would they ruin movies about the ruin of the Wild West?)

    Replies: @R.G. Camara, @syonredux

    , @mark green
    @Harry Baldwin


    Sergio Leone’s epic “Man With No Name” trilogy has no women characters that appear for more than a few seconds.
     
    It would not be inaccurate to say that women were assigned insignificant roles in many Westerns and virtually all war movies throughout most of the 20th century. America was free of racial quotas, feminism, and political correctness until the 70s.

    In addition to the Sergio Leone's three 'spaghetti' Westerns (which starred Clint Eastwood), Lee Marvin and Eastwood appeared together in 'Paint Your Wagon'. This singing Western co-starred Jean Seberg in an entirely forgettable role. Other big Westerns without female characters of any merit include 'The Professionals' as well as 'The Magnificent Seven'. On television, there was 'Bonanza'.

    On the war side, all-male casts were the rule. For instance, there was 'The Dirty Dozen', 'The Longest Day', 'Pork Chop Hill', 'Paths of Glory', All Quiet on the Western Front', and 'Attack'. These were all hyper-masculine, all-male (but entirely heterosexual) action films. The list goes on.

    Many, if not most, popular Westerns during the mid-20th century had only minor female characters. Blacks were absent in US films until the late 60s. Ditto for TV. Then the SCOTUS and the EEOC stepped in.

    Interestingly, the now-ubiquitous subject of unique Jewish suffering was absent virtually all American-made war films for the first 20 years following WWII. The term 'The Holocaust' had not even been injected into mainstream consciousness until a TV mini-series with that title premiered around 1980. The Judaized reinvention of the term 'Holocaust' did not exist until decades following WWII. Oddly, as we get further away from WWII, the Jewish aspect of that global catastrophe grows bigger.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Joe Stalin, @Farenheit, @Peter D. Bredon

  45. Does real life pass Bechdel Test?

    I suppose technically yes. Aside from men, women talk about clothes, makeup, diets, other women, and, when older, children and grandchildren. This covers 99.9% of intra-female conversation.

  46. Its a shame Master and Commander flopped, could have been the start of a great series, one again the public have let me down 🙁

    • Agree: Voltarde, Mr. Anon
  47. @Ben Kurtz
    I'm a big fan of Master and Commander, and I feel it's a shame that it was not quite successful enough to launch a multi-part franchise.

    The article quite ridiculously dismisses Das Boot from the list due to a single onshore scene containing some nameless hookers (kind of the definition of nameless extras if you'd ask me), but frankly it is an excellent movie about war and the human condition and deserves to be watched ahead of pretty much anything excreted by Hollywood in the past five or ten years.

    Regarding Moby Dick: Reading it in high school is a waste. I think it actually should be read in adulthood, but perhaps the current era of hysteria and identity politics doesn't make a good backdrop for it. Try again at another moment in our cultural history. The book has the whole human condition wrapped up in it -- the sane, the mad, the comic, the tragic, and yes, even its fair share of homoeroticism.

    Perhaps the Melville for our time is Bartleby the Scrivener. Much shorter too.

    Replies: @slumber_j, @SFG

    You’re right about everything. And in addition to the whole human condition, Moby-Dick contains just about every sort of writing imaginable, including a sermon and a scientific treatise. You just have to let it wash over you.

    • Agree: Abe
    • Replies: @Bu'bha al-Teksani
    @slumber_j

    Congratulations. You're the first commenter, I believe, to get the hyphen in Moby-Dick.

  48. You’re missing out on Moby-Dick. It’s brilliant and the gay stuff is pretty patchy and doesn’t overshadow the wittiness.

  49. @black sea
    Selected dialogue from Billy Budd:

    Billy Budd: No man can take pleasure in cruelty.
    Claggert: No? Tell me, do you fear the lash?
    Billy Budd: [nods] Aye.


    Billy Budd: I think that sometimes you hate yourself. I was thinking, sir, the nights are lonely. Perhaps I could talk with you between watches when you've nothing else to do.
    Claggert: Lonely. What do you know of loneliness?
    Billy Budd: Them's alone that want to be.
    Claggert: Nights are long — conversation helps pass the time.
    Billy Budd: Can I talk to you again, then? It would mean a lot to me.
    Claggert: Perhaps to me, too. [his expression suddenly turns suspicious and sours] Oh, no. You would charm me too, huh? Get away.
    Billy Budd: Sir?
    Claggert: Get — away!


    Denial is not a river in Eygpt.

    Replies: @slumber_j

    The best thing by far in Billy Budd (which I otherwise didn’t have much use for) is the poem “Billy In the Darbies” at the end, which I liked so much that I memorized it a long time ago.

    Spoiler alert, the last line is great: “I am sleepy, and the oozy weeds about me twist.”

  50. “Hell in the Pacific” would’ve been more hellish if women were involved, probably.

  51. I could name dozens of anime that pass the Bechdel Test with flying covers, and some of them are really good. However, since the characters are usually cute girls of high school age the Western Wokeists have a massive hatred towards anime. Not only do they despise characters drawn well and with a sense of beauty, they project their own tendencies by accusing the show and its viewers of promoting pedophilia. That doesn’t seem to be a consideration of theirs when actual children are sexualized like in Cuties, or poorly drawn children are sexualized like in Big Mouth. And it’s not just fanservice like in anime, it’s explicitly sexual and the sexuality is central to the plot. Not to mention anime characters are almost always Asian or White, the most vexing fact of all to Wokeists

    • Replies: @HTT fan
    @Pop Warner

    While the West abandons beauty, slice of life animes like K-On! carry the fire

    Replies: @vhrm

  52. Don’t forget Khartoum, a really well-done 1966 movie based on 19th century events in Britain and Sudan.

    If I recall correctly, not only are there no parts of any kind, no matter how minor, for women. I think that a woman’s voice is only heard once.

    • Replies: @TorontoTraveller
    @Anon7

    Did Zulu have women? Maybe that one should be on the list.

    Replies: @additionalMike, @anon, @Ancient Briton

  53. Moby-Dick has thorough knowledge of the Bible. And in the Bible, to accept idolatry is akin to sexual deviance. Hence that scene, where Ishmael compares his relationship to Queequeg as one of husband to wife.

    That scene is also trolling the Christian missions folks at the time, who claimed to love the pagans and heathens of the world so much that they would do anything for them.

    • Replies: @James O'Meara
    @Sioux County Guy

    Yes, indeed, that is the main theme, at least as Melville originally conceived (!) it. Contrary to some opinions above, MD could easily be taught as an epic of Wokism, and probably is if it's taught at all. Natives and slaves are idolized, Christian are all hypocrites (the Quaker ship owners) or fanatics like Ahab.

    The association of sexual deviance with idolatry (religious deviance, "heresy" is Greek for "choice") is the root of the Hebrew homohate. Pagan cultures may have deplored it but they never made it The Ultimate Sin, since creedal orthodoxy wasn't part of polytheism either. Hate homos as much as you want, but if you don't make what Assmann (!) calls The Mosaic Distinction, that move from J-C to paganism drains all the energy goes out of it.

    Replies: @Dissident

  54. @Ben Kurtz
    I'm a big fan of Master and Commander, and I feel it's a shame that it was not quite successful enough to launch a multi-part franchise.

    The article quite ridiculously dismisses Das Boot from the list due to a single onshore scene containing some nameless hookers (kind of the definition of nameless extras if you'd ask me), but frankly it is an excellent movie about war and the human condition and deserves to be watched ahead of pretty much anything excreted by Hollywood in the past five or ten years.

    Regarding Moby Dick: Reading it in high school is a waste. I think it actually should be read in adulthood, but perhaps the current era of hysteria and identity politics doesn't make a good backdrop for it. Try again at another moment in our cultural history. The book has the whole human condition wrapped up in it -- the sane, the mad, the comic, the tragic, and yes, even its fair share of homoeroticism.

    Perhaps the Melville for our time is Bartleby the Scrivener. Much shorter too.

    Replies: @slumber_j, @SFG

    Bartleby? I’d rather not.

    • Replies: @Stan Adams
    @SFG

    You would prefer not to, you mean.

    Crispin Glover once played Bartleby in a weird (allegedly) comedic movie based on the story. It was filled with cheap gags and featured such dubious luminaries as Joe Piscopo. The most interesting aspect of the production was the use of a Theremin for the score.

  55. That passage from Moby Dick reminds me of an anecdote about some male British MPs on a fact-finding mission in Africa, where the rudimentary accommodation meant they had to share beds. One of them complained that his bedmate kept him awake all night long with his snoring. His colleague offered to take his place the following night and sleep with the snorer.

    Next day the grateful MP said he’d had a good sleep, but asked if his colleague was kept awake all night by the snoring as he had been. The latter replied that he’d slept like a log, and explained how: “As soon as I got into bed, I gave him a kiss. He didn’t sleep a wink all night”.

    • LOL: Clyde
  56. Moby Dick , chapter 95.

  57. The Great Escape is gay?

    Good Lord I must pay attention more.

    How about Apocalypse now?

    • Replies: @SunBakedSuburb
    @Bill B.

    "How about Apocalypse [N]ow?"

    Francis Ford Coppola's 1979 masterpiece is not gay and I will strip down to my leather thong and wrestle anyone who says it is.

    Replies: @Joe Stalin

  58. Because we all watch a lot of movies, many of the less aware among us decide that we could easily make decent ones ourselves. This ignorance leads us to devalue the exceptional artistry that goes into even a lot of (relatively) bad and (relatively) formulaic production.

    Perhaps if Bechdel and other dweebs realised just how clueless they were then they’d be more hesitant to distract the creators from creation with small-minded concerns like does the movie conform to their childish definitions of “fairness” or, as they try to disguise it as somehow intelligent, “equity”.

  59. @SFG
    I'm honestly not sure if in that era, given the lack of awareness of homosexuality men were a lot more willing to get close to each other like that because it wasn't even on their gaydar...er, radar, or there actually was a lot more gay stuff going on than we like to admit.

    A lot of it was probably sublimated. Not giving into your sexual urges was actually admired at one point.

    Replies: @BB753, @Hereward the Woke

    Probably both?

  60. Anon[125] • Disclaimer says:

    OT

    Was Phil Spector the latest elderly Covid victim?

    https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-01-17/phil-spector-dead

    Weirdly I had just finished watching YouTube videos from the Wrecking Crew documentary where those ace studio musicians talked about how Spector made his records. Brian Wilson was hanging out in the studio crowd in all the photos.

    • Replies: @Clyde
    @Anon


    Was Phil Spector the latest elderly Covid victim?
    https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-01-17/phil-spector-dead
    Weirdly I had just finished watching YouTube videos from the Wrecking Crew documentary where those ace studio musicians talked about how Spector made his records. Brian Wilson was hanging out in the studio crowd in all the photos.
     
    Jack Nitzsche was the genius behind Phil Spector. You can read his Wikipedia entry. I think Phil Spector was able to be a better front in LA due to being Jewish, while Nitzsche did much of the real grunt work and arranging for Phil Spector produced records. "Wall of Sound" and so on. Nitzsche also is on many Stones and Neil Young recordings. Nitzsche was tight with Sonny Bono who actually had one of his tunes recorded by the Rolling Stones. Bono - "She Said Yeah"

    Early Stones recorded in London, Chicago (Chess Rec), Los Angeles etc. Whenever they recorded in LA, during an American tour, Nitzsche was in the studio with them. Usually on keyboards of some kind

    Replies: @Anon, @MEH 0910

    , @Peter D. Bredon
    @Anon

    Phil Spector crafting River Deep Mountain High:

    https://youtu.be/0yz3d5g3XkI

  61. The Chinese leaders would have a hearty laugh if they knew about the Bechdel Test. They have nothing close to such jive. Devised by a lesbian who is very out lesbian looking with her cropped hair and wearing men’s clothing. It is a stupid and weak culture that takes the Allison Bechdels seriously, that takes its cues from such mixed up creatures.

    • Agree: YetAnotherAnon
  62. Numerous war, adventure or astronaut movies would have worked just fine without women, but the producers could not resist the urge to shoehorn in a Geena Davis or Nancy Allen type to whip up some emoting back home, I suppose to help create a more viable date movie. And now of course there must be a woman on the mission, leading the crew or at least handling the high-tech.

    Movies that very ably inserted a female character on the front lines, not mere gender window-dressing, include Alien (Siggy Weaver) and MASH (Sally Kellerman and then Loretta Swit on TV). I’m a Catch-22 person, not a MASH person, but Heller’s work and the subsequent film failed to create a memorable female character (as much as I like Paula Prentiss)

    • Replies: @Jus' Sayin'...
    @Known Fact


    but Heller’s work and the subsequent film failed to create a memorable female character (as much as I like Paula Prentiss)
     
    IIRC, General Dreedle's WAC was pretty memorable with nipples the size of Bing cherries.
    , @Peter D. Bredon
    @Known Fact

    "Heller’s work and the subsequent film failed to create a memorable female character (as much as I like Paula Prentiss)"

    Never understood why this movie was so underrated, even today.

    Replies: @Known Fact

  63. @Achmed E. Newman
    I had no idea the thing was gay.

    I tried reading Moby Dick for the first time last week, ...
     
    I tried reading the Cliff Notes for Moby Dick for the first time during my junior year in high school. TLDR.

    Replies: @SFG, @El Dato, @Old Prude, @Mikeja, @MEH 0910, @syonredux

    I wouldn’t know Billy Budd was gay if it weren’t for the Sopranos. “He was the ship’s florist”

  64. Moby Dick is *not* gay. Ishmael is just naive.

    surprised Steve doesn’t see this, being born in the late 50s, but then he *is* a C*lifornian!

    As others have mentioned, the American requirement to maintain a certain amount of physical distance from other men is very much an externality of the homosexualist cultural jihad. Further back in the modern period, it largely does not occur to people that there’s an association between males being physically close and the unnatural vice, because people hardly thought of such behavior. Even 10 years ago I remember being shocked by two German men with girlfriends sitting extremely close to each other on a couch, but in Germany, they hadn’t had the full homosexualist jihad yet. You can go to all sorts of cultures, even today, and see similar. In China, male friends hold freaking hands, and the unnatural vice does not occur to them, very rare in China.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Boswald Bollocksworth

    Exactly. Men sharing a bed in an inn was very common in bygone days. It says a lot about modern Fagerican culture that this strikes a "conservative" author as gay. Ditto for men riding or doing physical activities bare chested. Remember the Fagerican snickering about Putin barechested photos?
    Face it, modern US is a Big Fag overflowing its faggish mores to the rest of the world.

    , @martin_2
    @Boswald Bollocksworth

    In the sixties and seventies there was a much loved British comedy double act, Morecambe and Wise, and in their sketches they were shown sharing the same double bed. The oddness of this arrangement was just part of the comedy and I doubt that it occurred to many in their audience that they were homosexualists.

    Charlie Chaplin shares a bed with a male friend in City Lights.

    , @Marty
    @Boswald Bollocksworth

    https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=7LJ3c8Kx&id=D6850A23EF5D173E102E591C1986910D4B455F6C&thid=OIP.7LJ3c8KxmFFTi-_SkahfvwAAAA&mediaurl=https%3a%2f%2fcdn.substack.com%2fimage%2ffetch%2ff_auto%2cq_auto%3agood%2cfl_progressive%3asteep%2fhttps%3a%252F%252Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%252Fpublic%252Fimages%252Fe10620a7-e197-4809-b1e1-cae267aef903_250x285.jpeg&exph=285&expw=250&q=cardinals+uecler+gibson+hold+hands&simid=608001270460908421&ck=FDDE40968A7EA26683E345FAC4349E58&selectedIndex=0&FORM=IRPRST&idpp=overlayview&ajaxhist=0

  65. @prosa123
    My Dinner with Andre: consists almost entirely of two men talking with each other. Adding a woman character, such as a restaurant hostess, would have been possible, but with the focus being almost entirely upon the two men it would have been largely irrelevant.

    Great Escape: set entirely within a POW camp, an obviously all-male setting.

    Glengarry Glen Ross: a bunch of ultra-Alpha salesmen; and
    Lord of the Flies: young boys stranded on an island.
    Adding any female characters would have completely changed the dynamic of either movie.

    One that does stick out is Twelve Angry Men. Even in the 1950's it seems odd that a jury wouldn't have had any women.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Lot

    Yeah, because in the Perry Mason TV series during the same time frame, the juries always included some women jurors.

  66. Herman Melville was somewhat overlooked until the melvillian revival around the end of the First World War.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herman_Melville#Melville_revival_and_Melville_studies

    The centennial of Melville’s birth in 1919 coincided with a renewed interest in his writings known as the Melville revival where his work experienced a significant critical reassessment. The renewed appreciation began in 1917 with Carl Van Doren’s article on Melville in a standard history of American literature. Van Doren also encouraged Raymond Weaver, who wrote the author’s first full-length biography, Herman Melville: Mariner and Mystic (1921). Discovering the unfinished manuscript of Billy Budd, among papers shown to him by Melville’s granddaughter, Weaver edited it and published it in a new collected edition of Melville’s works. Other works that helped fan the flames for Melville were Carl Van Doren’s The American Novel (1921), D. H. Lawrence’s Studies in Classic American Literature (1923), Carl Van Vechten’s essay in The Double Dealer (1922), and Lewis Mumford’s biography Herman Melville (1929).[183]

    Carl Van Doren is the father of Charles Van Doren. Charles was the subject of the movie quiz show, which does not pass the bedchel test, and is pretty good.

  67. @SFG
    @Ben Kurtz

    Bartleby? I'd rather not.

    Replies: @Stan Adams

    You would prefer not to, you mean.

    Crispin Glover once played Bartleby in a weird (allegedly) comedic movie based on the story. It was filled with cheap gags and featured such dubious luminaries as Joe Piscopo. The most interesting aspect of the production was the use of a Theremin for the score.

  68. THE TREASURE OF THE SIERRA MADRE.

    If I recall, the only female speaking line is when Pat McCormick (Barton Maclaine) introduces his whore to Dobbs and Curtin while walking the plaza——

    “Hey there boys. Meet Miss …..uhhhhh……errrr….”

    With a glare, she corrects Pat with a stern—-

    “Lopez!”

    • Agree: Buffalo Joe
  69. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    "I’d probably vote for Lawrence of Arabia as the greatest movie of all time."

    Oh, come on Steve. At least half dozen that were way better. Roshomon. Wild Strawberries. The Seventh Seal. The Godfather. Citizen Kane. The Searchers. Even Taxi Driver. Birth of a Nation is another one.

    "The top two are fairly gay."

    So is Lawrence, btw. Homoerotically to the max.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @Reg Cæsar, @Ancient Briton

    Yoji, The “Godfather” is great and could have been made without a female role and “Saving Private Ryan” has no women to speak of but it is a guy flick and “Lawrence” is in my top 10. Not too crazy about romantic movies but for a movie with women in major roles I’ll take “The Graduate.”

    • Replies: @SunBakedSuburb
    @Buffalo Joe

    "The Graduate"

    In my view, Mike Nichols's The Graduate (1967) is a perfect film. Alienation has never been funnier. For a dramatic take on the theme try Five Easy Pieces (1970). American film from the mid 60s to mid 70s: an explosion of greatness.

    , @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Buffalo Joe

    Wasn't specifically naming great films with an all male cast. Was thinking of films that are far greater, artistically speaking, than LOR.

    Maurice Jarre writes a romantically, erotically tinged score and not a single woman in the film. The main theme is about women and men copulating. Joseph Mankiewicz should've used the theme in his Cleopatra (1963) starring Liz and Dick, and the point would've been that much more explicit. Instead you get a great romantic theme....and not a single woman of note in the picture. Unbelievable.

    Don't think there was a woman in the main cast of The Longest Day (1962). I'll put that film up vs LOR any time any day of the week.

    Patton (1970), there's a far greater film than LOR. And it doesn't contain a single woman in the cast. Won Best Picture Academy Award and did well at the box office.

    , @prosa123
    @Buffalo Joe

    The “Godfather” is great and could have been made without a female role

    Not true. Looking just at the original, there were three subplots involving women that were absolutely essential to the storyline.

    1. Carlo's savage beating of Connie was the one and only thing that could have drawn Sonny out of his refuge in the family compound into the toll booth ambush.
    2. Apollonia's car bomb murder in Sicily set Michael on an irreversible course to become part of the crime family, dashing his hopes of returning to a normal life after the furor over the shootings of Sollozzo and McCluskey died down.
    3. Kay's gradual understanding of Michael's true nature, and her eventual acceptance of it, also was vital to his transformation into his new role as Family boss.

    In contrast, the movie did not use the novel's ludicrous subplot involving Sonny and Lucy Mancini. It wouldn't have added anything to the storyline, would have prolonged an already long movie, and would have been difficult to handle in a non-pornographic manner.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @James O'Meara, @additionalMike, @Buffalo Joe

  70. I’d recommend Melville’s shorter story ‘Benito Cereno’ as a quite relevant read for our time. Several of H. P. Lovecraft’s stories feature no female characters e.g. Pickman’s Model, The Whisperer in Darkness, The Haunter of the Dark. The females who appear e.g. The Dunwich Horror (Lavinia, Wilbur Whateley’s weird mother), The Thing on the Doorstep (Edward Derby’s literally mind-controlling wife Asenath), The Dreams in the Witch House (Keziah Mason the witch), when not simply victims, are uniformly sinister and malign.

  71. @MEH 0910
    Twelve Angry Men
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKxcIUNhgNg

    SCTV Network
     

    Replies: @The Alarmist, @Paul Jolliffe, @Buffalo Joe

    MEH, our local HS staged the play as “Twelve Angry Jurors.” Now before anyone starts to riff on egual roles for women but not men, in HS it’s hard to find 12 guys who want to be in a drama.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Buffalo Joe


    MEH, our local HS staged the play as “Twelve Angry Jurors.”
     
    Is the adult film There Were 12 Men, But they Weren't Angry apocryphal?
  72. @Mike Tre
    Escape from Alcatraz and The Shawshank Redemption (basically the same movie)

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

    Mike, in SR no one notices the gapping hole in the cell wall covered by a painting, even though the cell was vacant while he was in the “hole.”

    • Replies: @Mike Tre
    @Buffalo Joe

    LOL - but yes, the (re)birth and baptism metaphors are fairly conspicuous.

  73. Women have no lines in it, although they are allowed to ululate.

    By permission of the ulema.

  74. One vote for “Emperor of the North Pole” with Ernest Borgnine and Lee Marvin battling it out with hammers and chains atop a moving train. Not sure, but I think there might be a woman with a non-speaking role in the baptism scene.

    • Agree: Gordo
    • Replies: @Peter D. Bredon
    @Milo Minderbinder

    “Emperor of the North Pole” with Ernest Borgnine and Lee Marvin battling it out with hammers and chains atop a moving train.

    I think you may have found the Chuck Norris of manly films.

    (Personally I would have gone with Lee Marvin in Point Blank or Michael Caine in Get Carter)

  75. @Buffalo Joe
    @MEH 0910

    MEH, our local HS staged the play as "Twelve Angry Jurors." Now before anyone starts to riff on egual roles for women but not men, in HS it's hard to find 12 guys who want to be in a drama.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    MEH, our local HS staged the play as “Twelve Angry Jurors.”

    Is the adult film There Were 12 Men, But they Weren’t Angry apocryphal?

    • LOL: YetAnotherAnon
  76. The Thing
    The Great Escape

    The top two are fairly gay.

    Oh come on! I’m guessing that remark was just to provide clickbait. Very strange comment for a Kurt Russell action movie directed by John Carpenter, or a World War II masterpiece with guys like James Garner, Steve McQueen, Charles Bronson, James Coburn. Granted, the British cast wasn’t too impressive. I think Archie Bunker nailed it with “England is a fag country“.

  77. @prosa123
    My Dinner with Andre: consists almost entirely of two men talking with each other. Adding a woman character, such as a restaurant hostess, would have been possible, but with the focus being almost entirely upon the two men it would have been largely irrelevant.

    Great Escape: set entirely within a POW camp, an obviously all-male setting.

    Glengarry Glen Ross: a bunch of ultra-Alpha salesmen; and
    Lord of the Flies: young boys stranded on an island.
    Adding any female characters would have completely changed the dynamic of either movie.

    One that does stick out is Twelve Angry Men. Even in the 1950's it seems odd that a jury wouldn't have had any women.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Lot

    Until the 1970s many states let women opt out of jury service. Those that didn’t still excused women more liberally. So they ended up as 1 to 25% of jury pools.

    My recollection of pre-75 courtroom scenes is women are usually on juries but much less than half.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Lot


    My recollection of pre-75 courtroom scenes is women are usually on juries but much less than half.
     
    "My recollection of pre-RBG courtroom scenes is women are usually on juries but much less than half."

    Fixed that.

    Missouri federal judge reflects on Supreme Court case with Ginsburg: ‘She was outstanding’

    Duren v. Missouri

    Duren v. Missouri, 439 U.S. 357 (1979)

    NB: The article linked to contains two errors: it wasn't the county's policy, but a clause in the Missouri constitution. Louisiana did not exclude women entirely, but only added them to the list if they volunteered beforehand. They were about 1% of the Pelican jury pool.

  78. Orson Welles said even mediocre people can make a good movie; it’s not that hard, he contended (see Youtubes of his interview with Michael Parkinson on the BBC (oh, about 1973) about making movies: they’re quite entertaining and insightful. Welles: All you need is a technically competent camera man, a mildly interesting script, and some professional actors to make a good movie. On the other hand, making a great movie was pretty hard, but not as hard as putting on a play. Orson said when he was starting out, a well- regarded camera man told him that he could teach Orson everything he needed to know about making movies in about a day and half if he wanted to follow him around at work. Orson said he was right.

    The Great Escape is gay? A couple of years ago some college students who worked in my lab (I’m over 60) were passing around a video about a movie they said was incredible. I was curious: It was the Great Escape. I was somewhat surprised they had never seen it before. They asked me if I had ever seen it? I told them I saw it in its first run, and when I was their age Hollywood put out a lot of movies of such caliber.

  79. I only read through MD a couple years ago, when I got it on Kindle. I found that reading on an e-reader was much less exhausting than a big, thick hardcover (and paperbacks that size are totally unwieldy). The continuous text also helps get you into Meville’s rhetorical flow. Maybe you should just skip ahead and start when Ahab arrives, because it really is a different book at that point (an example of where a character takes over a book or film). The climactic whale hunt really is a rhetorical masterpiece.

    As for the “gay stuff” you have to be careful, Steve. That’s exactly the 19th century manners and rhetoric, on the basis of which some claim “Lincoln was gay” (same bedtime stories with his “roommates”); a very similar scene occurs in The Virginian, the archetypal cowboy book. As you say to the Wokesters, you can’t have it both ways: either Ishmael is not gay, just frontier American, or else Lincoln, etc. are gay.

    The old Penguin English Library edition had 600 of text and 300 pages of commentary, from one Harold Beaver (yes) a professor of “American Studies” that highlighted every single possibly gay reference in the book, line by line. It’s quite an achievement in academic monomania and inspired my own writing style.

    • Agree: Bardon Kaldian
    • Replies: @Ray P
    @James O'Meara

    When they called Lincoln a 'log-splitter' it was nineteenth century gay slang?

    , @Anonymous
    @James O'Meara


    As for the “gay stuff” you have to be careful, Steve. That’s exactly the 19th century manners and rhetoric, on the basis of which some claim “Lincoln was gay” (same bedtime stories with his “roommates”); a very similar scene occurs in The Virginian, the archetypal cowboy book. As you say to the Wokesters, you can’t have it both ways: either Ishmael is not gay, just frontier American, or else Lincoln, etc. are gay.

     

    People often say that strong affections between exclusive straight men were common in the past. But it only makes sense, if undoubtly straight men like Benjamin Franklin or Thomas Jefferson said and did the same with his friends.
  80. Also, along with the Great Escape,
    Stalag 17. (admittedly not a great movie, but a good movie, and NOT gay).

  81. @The Alarmist
    Don’t get Barry Corbin (in character as Maurice Minnifield) going on Walt Whitman.


    https://youtu.be/bX4W9SFmxtM?t=1m04s

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    The unique TV show. I have all the episodes on DVD & watched some of them 2-3 times.

  82. @Clyde

    I tried reading the Cliff Notes for Moby Dick for the first time during my junior year in high school. TLDR.
     
    https://www.amazon.com/Moby-Classics-Illustrated-Herman-Melville/dp/1906814376 ----- Classics Comics rendering gets good reviews. 9 ratings at Amazon.

    Replies: @James O'Meara, @Mike Tre

    Actually, the John Huston/Ray Bradbury film is pretty good itself, and makes for a better set of Cliff Notes.

  83. @Bardon Kaldian
    This is Alison Bechdel. And she is a woman - real, genetic woman.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Alison_Bechdel_at_the_Boston_Book_Festival.jpg/1280px-Alison_Bechdel_at_the_Boston_Book_Festival.jpg

    Wow...... I mean: Wow

    Replies: @James O'Meara, @Peter D. Bredon, @Russ, @Mr. Anon, @Aardvark, @Mike Tre, @donut, @Anon, @MBlanc46, @Yancey Ward

    Talk about “rough trade.” The phrase “rode hard and put up wet” comes to mind.

  84. Why do American boomers balk at affection between two adult men? Take the stick out of your ass Steven

  85. @Bardon Kaldian
    This is Alison Bechdel. And she is a woman - real, genetic woman.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Alison_Bechdel_at_the_Boston_Book_Festival.jpg/1280px-Alison_Bechdel_at_the_Boston_Book_Festival.jpg

    Wow...... I mean: Wow

    Replies: @James O'Meara, @Peter D. Bredon, @Russ, @Mr. Anon, @Aardvark, @Mike Tre, @donut, @Anon, @MBlanc46, @Yancey Ward

    Call me Ishmael.

    • LOL: Bardon Kaldian
    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    @Peter D. Bredon


    Call me Ishmael.
     
    It is virtually certain she's never been around anything remotely like dick.
  86. @SFG
    @Achmed E. Newman

    LOL. Thing is, back then you had nothing else to do for hours in the winter and long books were the way you got your money's worth. Not to mention all the endless descriptions that were probably a lot of fun when movies didn't exist (this is an insight I have never heard before Steve, TBH).

    "All golden and lovely it blazed in the sunset, with walls, temples, colonnades, and arched bridges of veined marble, silver-basined fountains of prismatic spray in broad squares and perfumed gardens, and wide streets marching between delicate trees and blossom-laden urns and ivory statues in gleaming rows; while on steep northward slopes climbed tiers of red roofs and old peaked gables harbouring little lanes of grassy cobbles. It was a fever of the gods; a fanfare of supernal trumpets and a clash of immortal cymbals..."

    Come on, Howie, get to the tentacles.

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon, @RichardTaylor, @Peter D. Bredon, @Jus' Sayin'..., @Achmed E. Newman, @syonredux

    That’s where HPL’s “anti-semitism” comes from: dealing with Jewish editors.

    “Enough chin music, make with the tentacles already!”

    Seriously, read his comments on the editor of Weird Tales.

    • Replies: @SFG
    @Peter D. Bredon

    I do remember that.

    Frankly I can't get too worked up about it. It didn't have any real-world effects apart from perhaps wasting Sonia Greene's time, and if I start doing ideological inquisitions on every author I'll have nothing to read.

    Though I was mostly kidding. I can't really blame HPL for adhering to the aesthetic conventions of his time (and honestly he was aiming for a recondite antiquarianism), and besides, he had quite the imagination. Besides, we see eye-to-eye on a lot; things really have learned to walk that ought to crawl.

  87. Probably not a coincidence that the music that’s most revered are the classic rock bands with no female members.

    • Replies: @Peter D. Bredon
    @Days of Broken Arrows

    You mean, of course, "pop" music. Well, I guess but... Fleetwood Mac? Heart?

    Arguably the greatest Rolling Stones track is Gimme Shelter due to Merrie Clayton's vocal.

    https://youtu.be/M9X0HCGNfyg

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon

  88. I have heard from a friend of mine who had been occupied with his paternal duties re his growing daughter: psycho-neurological studies show that in children who read in formative years from, say, 4- 14, there is a strong correlation between the density of neuron packing &, generally, growth in cognitive ability and reading.

    On the other hand, those who don’t read (for various reasons), just watch TV & other moving pictures (you can apply this to smartphones & similar stuff, too) – do not develop cognitive abilities at that level because they just passively absorb what they’ve been watching.

    My friend & his wife are above average re mental abilities & they read, or have read, a lot. But they couldn’t force or persuade their daughter to read. She is now in her mid 20s & while OK, evidently a non-mental type. Cognitively- definitely below her parents.

  89. I subject all books to a Bechdel test: if they’re by Alison Bechdel, I don’t read them.

  90. @Known Fact
    Twilight's Last Gleaming (1977) was a badly confused Seven Days in May type flick. But with an all-stud cast led by Burt Lancaster, Paul Winfield and Richard Widmark -- with no women in sight whatsoever -- it was the perfect few hours to clear the head after a tough breakup.

    It also featured one of my all-time favorite ad taglines -- Winfield going, "We took on de powuh -- de real powuh!"

    Replies: @MEH 0910

    But with an all-stud cast led by Burt Lancaster, Paul Winfield and Richard Widmark —

    Paul Winfield was gay.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Winfield#Personal_life_and_death

    Winfield was gay, but remained discreet about it in the public eye. Prior to realizing his sexuality, he had a relationship with his Sounder co-star Cicely Tyson for 18 months.[10] His partner of 30 years, architect Charles Gillan Jr., died on March 5, 2002, of bone cancer.[11] Winfield long battled obesity and diabetes. He died of a heart attack in 2004 at age 64 at Queen of Angels – Hollywood Presbyterian Medical Center in Los Angeles.[12] Winfield and Gillan are interred together at Forest Lawn Memorial Park in Los Angeles.[13]

    • Replies: @Known Fact
    @MEH 0910

    18 months with Cicely Tyson could turn anyone gay

    Replies: @MEH 0910

  91. Moby Dick is one the greatest works of art of the last 300 years. Melville is America’s Shakespeare, America’s Homer. A works such as this, as with Shakespeare, requires a reader of intelligence and sensitivity. It is not a work a intelligent reader asks “is this too gay?”, but “is this real?” Moby Dick is beyond real, it is a work of art without parallel, it is beyond real.
    For an author who often writes about the matter of IQ, ‘Sailer’ (yes, ‘Sailer’ doesn’t get Moby Dick) has yet to come to terms with his own shortcomings, biases, and at times, complete idiocy. But rating the foremost 18th century work of literature as potentially, possibly… ‘gay’, suggests the author is fighting with his own ‘white whale’, and is not up front about the fact.

    • Agree: Wade Hampton
    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @etype


    Moby Dick is one the greatest works of art of the last 300 years.
     
    Perhaps yes, perhaps no. The anatomy part makes a big chunk of a book hard to read. But, it remains a great atypical "novel", not for most tastes, especially modern. Just, it would take us too long- how "alive" are Homer, Dante, Cervantes, Goethe, .. now?

    Melville is America’s Shakespeare, America’s Homer.
     
    Yes. Plus Whitman.

    It is not a work a intelligent reader asks “is this too gay?”, but “is this real?” Moby Dick is beyond real, it is a work of art without parallel, it is beyond real.
     
    Agreed, but you have to admit there is an aura of fagdom this romance radiates. Conrad's sea novels don't have that fairy irradiation, which can be detected also in some other Melville's works. As I said-I think Melville was not a homosexual, but he did possess a homo trait that erupted now & then in his fictions.

    For an author who often writes about the matter of IQ, ‘Sailer’ (yes, ‘Sailer’ doesn’t get Moby Dick) has yet to come to terms with his own shortcomings, biases, and at times, complete idiocy.
     
    Offensive & meaningless. Moby Dick is just not his cup of tea.

    But rating the foremost 18th century work of literature as potentially, possibly… ‘gay’, suggests the author is fighting with his own ‘white whale’, and is not up front about the fact.
     
    18th C?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    , @James O'Meara
    @etype

    Schopenhauer, I believe, can be our guide here, in the contrast he makes in literature between beauty and mere “interest." By the way, it’s no coincidence that all four of those “immortal masterpieces” he mentions are stylistically shambles – the “loose, baggy monsters” that Henry James sneered at -- and, to most honest readers, utterly boring. He was writing before Moby Dick was rediscovered.

    "The beauty of a work of art consists in the fact that it holds up a clear mirror to certain ideas inherent in the world in general; the beauty of a work of poetic art in particular is that it renders the ideas inherent in mankind, and thereby leads it to a knowledge of these ideas….

    "On the other hand, we call drama or descriptive poetry interesting when it represents events and actions of a kind which necessarily arouse concern or sympathy, like that which we feel in real events involving our own person. The fate of the person represented in them is felt in just the same fashion as our own: we await the development of events with anxiety; we eagerly follow their course; our hearts quicken when the hero is threatened; our pulse falters as the danger reaches its acme, and throbs again when he is suddenly rescued. …

    "[I]nterest does not necessarily involve beauty; and, conversely, it is true that beauty does not necessarily involve interest. Significant characters may be represented, that open up the depths of human nature, and it may all be expressed in actions and sufferings of an exceptional kind, so that the real nature of humanity and the world may stand forth in the picture in the clearest and most forcible lines; and yet no high degree of interest may be excited in the course of events by the continued progress of the action, or by the complexity and unexpected solution of the plot. The immortal masterpieces of Shakespeare contain little that excites interest; the action does not go forward in one straight line, but falters, as in Hamlet, all through the play; or else it spreads out in breadth, as in The Merchant of Venice, …; or the scenes hang loosely together, as in Henry IV….

    :Father Homer lays the world and humanity before us in its true nature, but he takes no trouble to attract our sympathy by a complexity of circumstance, or to surprise us by unexpected entanglements. His pace is lingering; he stops at every scene; he puts one picture after another tranquilly before us, elaborating it with care. We experience no passionate emotion in reading him; our demeanour is one of pure perceptive intelligence; he does not arouse our will, but sings it to rest; and it costs us no effort to break off in our reading, for we are not in condition of eager curiosity. This is all still more true of Dante, whose work is not, in the proper sense of the word, an epic, but a descriptive poem. The same thing may be said of the four immortal romances: Don Quixote, Tristram Shandy, La Nouvelle Heloïse, and Wilhelm Meister. To arouse our interest is by no means the chief aim of these works…." [Art of Controversy, Ch. 4]

  92. @J.Ross
    So, as a result of the lockdown, this year Sailer is ... twelve? The Great Escape is gay? The Great Escape is gay but a movie about upper class Englishmen lending a hand to Arabs (literally how the book starts) and getting punished by grinning Turks is not by a camel's one-day travel capacity the gayest thing on that list? Really? Democrats are talking freely about putting people in camps so this is the mood we strike?

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Russ, @HA, @SunBakedSuburb

    By “the top two” on the list, I think Sailer means #1 and #2 i.e. “Billy Budd” and “Lawrence of Arabia,” not “The Thing” and “The Great Escape.”

    • Replies: @Boko Fittleworth
    @Anonymous

    Thank you. Can't believe it took Comment #93 to correct this. Duh.

  93. @J.Ross
    So, as a result of the lockdown, this year Sailer is ... twelve? The Great Escape is gay? The Great Escape is gay but a movie about upper class Englishmen lending a hand to Arabs (literally how the book starts) and getting punished by grinning Turks is not by a camel's one-day travel capacity the gayest thing on that list? Really? Democrats are talking freely about putting people in camps so this is the mood we strike?

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Russ, @HA, @SunBakedSuburb

    So, as a result of the lockdown, this year Sailer is … twelve? The Great Escape is gay?

    Moreso a quirk in the article, methinks. He presented the womenless flicks from #15 to #1, and then asserts that the top two are gay. Not in list appearance but in ranking, the top two are Lawrence of Arabia and Melville’s Billy Budd … little quarrel there. Far more quarrel with The Thing (my favorite horror/sci-fi flick) and The Great Escape as gay — I too initially misread his statement, which could have been better presented.

    The first movie I ever saw explicitly labeled as womenless was “Gorgo” — an early 60s British ripoff of Godzilla. Hardly an epic.

  94. @Bardon Kaldian
    This is Alison Bechdel. And she is a woman - real, genetic woman.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Alison_Bechdel_at_the_Boston_Book_Festival.jpg/1280px-Alison_Bechdel_at_the_Boston_Book_Festival.jpg

    Wow...... I mean: Wow

    Replies: @James O'Meara, @Peter D. Bredon, @Russ, @Mr. Anon, @Aardvark, @Mike Tre, @donut, @Anon, @MBlanc46, @Yancey Ward

    This is Alison Bechdel. And she is a woman – real, genetic woman.

    May have an ancestor in common with Rachel Maddow.

  95. @HammerJack
    This thread is way too gay, even for iSteve. Maybe we could add some movies where women just sit and talk to each other? That would be fun.


    https://nypost.com/2021/01/15/crying-whataboutism-doesnt-make-lefts-support-for-rioting-go-away/

    No, sorry. That's not it. Hold on.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vlBqpvEQlGk

    See? They was doing the race thing way back when.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    I’ve seen a few short, non-porn lesbian movies (whether you consider them to be “gay” is another question). Also, they seem rather monotonous … alright- dull.

    [MORE]

    • Agree: donut
  96. @J.Ross
    So, as a result of the lockdown, this year Sailer is ... twelve? The Great Escape is gay? The Great Escape is gay but a movie about upper class Englishmen lending a hand to Arabs (literally how the book starts) and getting punished by grinning Turks is not by a camel's one-day travel capacity the gayest thing on that list? Really? Democrats are talking freely about putting people in camps so this is the mood we strike?

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Russ, @HA, @SunBakedSuburb

    “So, as a result of the lockdown, this year Sailer is … twelve? The Great Escape is gay? “

    I realize I probably won’t be the first to correct you and Bill B. and Old Prude, but no, the top two on the above list are actually “Billy Budd” and “Lawrence of Arabia” — those are the ones he characterized as “fairly gay”, and clearly, at least in the case of the latter, you agree.

    If you’re going to be that vehemently judgmental, you ought to read more carefully before popping off (in particular, the sentence that clearly says: “Counting down from #15 to #1.”

    • Replies: @vhrm
    @HA

    huh. I didn't get that... which also led me to wonder why the heck Moby Dick had to do with anything.

    (because it is also by Melville, like Billy Budd which is #2)

    , @J.Ross
    @HA

    Oh. Never mind.
    (At least everyone else made the same mistake.)

  97. @Cool Daddy Jimbo
    I stopped at the same point of Moby Dick. Five pages of "do I get in bed with spear guy or not" was too much for me. And I'm probably a simpleton, but I absolutely hate the 18th century style of sentences broken only by commas, that never end, that go on and on, forever, it seems. If any of you guys invents a time machine I need to borrow it for a few minutes. I'm going back in time to meet Edward Gibbon. I'm going to grab him by the scruff of the neck and slap him back and forth while saying, "Short. Choppy. Sentences. Motherfucker."

    Replies: @Peter D. Bredon, @Polynikes, @Etruscan Film Star

    “Another damn’d thick, square book! Always, scribble, scribble, scribble! Eh! Mr. Gibbon? — Duke of Glouster (on publication of Vol. 1 of The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire”)

  98. The Great Escape gay? Compared to The Magnificent Seven? “Everybody in the film was gay. They called that’ the Summer of Sin’ when they made that movie,” according to Chuck Bronson.

    • LOL: Bardon Kaldian
  99. @J.Ross
    So, as a result of the lockdown, this year Sailer is ... twelve? The Great Escape is gay? The Great Escape is gay but a movie about upper class Englishmen lending a hand to Arabs (literally how the book starts) and getting punished by grinning Turks is not by a camel's one-day travel capacity the gayest thing on that list? Really? Democrats are talking freely about putting people in camps so this is the mood we strike?

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Russ, @HA, @SunBakedSuburb

    “Sailer is … twelve?”

    Every so often we must step back from the serious business of blacks and the Proud Boy’s rather gay street theater and slip back into preadolescence — it’s where the good vibes are. For example: I recently bought a ventriloquist dummy — Danny O’Day, $57.97 — just so my friend would see it sitting in the passenger seat as I drove into the parking lot at A-1 Comics. A couple of days later I jumped back into my Ford f-150 and found Danny waiting in his seat. He’s my permanent passenger.

  100. @Buffalo Joe
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Yoji, The "Godfather" is great and could have been made without a female role and "Saving Private Ryan" has no women to speak of but it is a guy flick and "Lawrence" is in my top 10. Not too crazy about romantic movies but for a movie with women in major roles I'll take "The Graduate."

    Replies: @SunBakedSuburb, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @prosa123

    “The Graduate”

    In my view, Mike Nichols’s The Graduate (1967) is a perfect film. Alienation has never been funnier. For a dramatic take on the theme try Five Easy Pieces (1970). American film from the mid 60s to mid 70s: an explosion of greatness.

  101. Anonymous[945] • Disclaimer says:

    I’m sure if I kept at it I’d figure out a lot about Melville’s influence on 20th Century authors. But then I got to the big gay part where the innkeeper of the Spouter Inn tells Ishmael there’s no room at the inn, unless he agrees to share a bed with a harpooner.

    Incidentally, this is the level of analysis that contemporary Critical Theory dominated university English departments and other “studies” departments engage in to claim so and so author, novel, historical figure, etc. in the past was really gay.

    We live in gay times today, so one has to be actively non-gay and strive to remove all doubts. But in the past during straighter times, it was perfectly normal for heterosexual men to do things that would be considered gay today, like room together in boardinghouses, share the same bed if they were poor, etc. If you go to gyms today, the really old geezers who grew up in less gay times change and walk around naked in the locker rooms, while younger guys are extremely paranoid and careful not to expose themselves. Bathhouses are exclusively gay in the US, but in Eastern Europe, Russia, Asia, they’re normal places for heterosexual men.

    • Replies: @Alden
    @Anonymous

    Literature studies and criticism always, always follow the current liberal thinking and propaganda. It can be amusing to follow a classic book through the different interpretations at different times.

    A great example is a Jane Austen book, Mansfield Park. It’s basically Cinderella gets her man. Heroine is a foster child raised by aunt and uncle and married their son, her cousin.

    First time I read Mansfield Park it was an edition published in the 1930s. The preface was just ridiculous Freudian nonsense.

    According to Fraudian theory the heroine married her cousin because she was really in love with her uncle/ father figure. The book made it clear the aunt and uncle were happily married. So fraudian theory held the uncle really loved the heroine romantically and sexually. His love for his wife was just sublimated feelings for the niece.

    Even at 12 I thought it ridiculous because the uncle had been happily married for at least 18 years before he even met the niece.

    Moving through prefaces and college classes, Jane Austen and her characters were just evil rich capitalist bitches. How dare Jane not mention the household help. Plus Austen wrote at a time when most people in Britain were starving oppressed slaves of the evil capitalist mine and factory owners or oppressed starving farm workers. Bad , bad Jane to not be a Marxist back in 1790-1815.

    Those English profs were probably all men marxists. Are there any other kind of college prof?

    Next up the feminazis discovered Jane Austen was a woman! Suddenly she and her books went from capitalist oppressors of the workers to feminazi crusaders. Jane and her characters were strong independent women, striving to make a life independent of men, banned from the joys of working. Total BS, worse than the fraudian interpretation. One character, Jane Fairfax trained as a teacher. She had to work for a living, a fate worse than death. But thanks be to God and all his saints and angels, she was saved at the last minute by marriage to a rich man. The real Jane was horrified that any middle class woman would have to work for a living instead of living off an inheritance trust fund father husband or in Jane’s case, brothers

    The latest interpretation is Jane Austen and her sister Cassandra were lesbians. Proof is they never married and lived with their mother. That’s what people did in those days, lived with family.

    Personal opinion is all college English literature courses be abolished and the profs sent to slave labor camps somewhere.

    I read Moby Dick when I was a kid. Loved every long complicated sentence. The best part was the historical details about the whaling industry ships, the town the ship sailed from everything about it.

    Moby Dick was based on a true event. Apparently by about 1700 the Atlantic whales became aware of the European and American whalers in the Atlantic. So they migrated to the Pacific. And became very hostile to ships. There were many instances of whales attacking not just the rowboats but even the ships. Ahah was based on a captain who’d been disabled in a whale attack on his ship. There’s a history channel show about it. Captain was Captain Pollard, shipmeas the Essex happened 1820s

    My favorite movies of all time are Bernie the Gerald Depardieu Cyrano and Mars Attacks. 12 Angry Men is just anti White pro Hispanic liberal propaganda.

    Replies: @James O'Meara

  102. @Bill B.
    The Great Escape is gay?


    Good Lord I must pay attention more.


    How about Apocalypse now?

    Replies: @SunBakedSuburb

    “How about Apocalypse [N]ow?”

    Francis Ford Coppola’s 1979 masterpiece is not gay and I will strip down to my leather thong and wrestle anyone who says it is.

    • Replies: @Joe Stalin
    @SunBakedSuburb


    Francis is a real artist. I don’t believe he’s made up his mind about the Vietnam War, so he didn’t let Kurtz have any answers. I think he wanted Apocalypse Now to be a work in progress, and every year he’d re-release it.

    Is Apocalypse Now anti-Vietnam War? Nearly all the people involved in making it. from Francis on down, were against the war and held what were considered politically correct views at the time. Except for me: I wasn’t for the war. but I was for the American soldier and I wanted the film to reflect that. I wanted the grunts to be the heroes, to make a movie that they would look at and say. “This is ours.”

    I believe that one of the only noble attributes of our society is its concept of the American Citizen soldier. I’m a militarist and an anarchist. But don’t expect that to make sense. As David Bowie once said when accused of contradicting himself. “Well – I’m a rock star.” What do you expect? I’m a movie director.

    https://scrapsfromtheloft.com/2017/12/16/apocalypse-now-a-soldiers-tale-by-john-milius/
     
  103. Both books, movies a waste of time.

    Fishing, hunting, whittling, spitting.

    Indian, Viking type stuff.

    • Replies: @Gordo
    @anon


    Both books, movies a waste of time.

    Fishing, hunting, whittling, spitting.

    Indian, Viking type stuff.
     
    So we need to revive that great oral tradition?
  104. “No one in this world, so far as I know … has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people.” The Sage of Baltimore

  105. @Bardon Kaldian
    My opinion is somewhat different.

    Melville was not, in my view, a repressed homosexual (this idea is the one such a wise man as E.M.Forster- himself a homosexual- got wrong. Otherwise, Forster is right about most issues.) There is no indication for that, just modern & postmodern lascivious dirty mind snooping in other peoples' lives plus annoying homo propaganda, which tends to distort our perception of man's impulses & behavior in other historical times.

    But -enough with this marginal gay stuff.

    Moby Dick is a not a novel by normative standards; it is a hybrid of romance & anatomy (the best example of anatomy is Robert Burton's The Anatomy of Melancholy; in Moby Dick these are long expatiations on whaling most readers find tiresome). Then, Melville is a prophetic writer -here, Forster was right - along with Dostoevsky, or all of Empedocles, many Plato's dialogs, Nietzsche in Zarathustra, Jung in Septem Sermones & Marx and Engels in The Communist Manifesto.

    Prophecy is anchored in the archaic, primitive mind; speaking in accepted & a bit antiquated terms- a prophet is possessed by his daimon or god. He tries to articulate, with more or less success, through his rational mind the vision his gods or subliminal self or his partially & temporary deranged mind/brain have imparted/created.

    If one cannot "get" this kind of stuff- better drop it. Dump it. Forster, again...


    WITH prophecy in the narrow sense of foretelling the future we have no concern, and we have not much concern with it as an appeal for righteousness. What will interest us today—what we must respond to, for interest now becomes an inappropriate word—is an accent in the novelist’s voice, an accent for which the flutes and saxophones of fantasy may have prepared us. His theme is the universe, or something universal, but he is not necessarily going to “say” anything about the universe; he proposes to sing, and the strangeness of song arising in the halls of fiction is bound to give us a shock. How will song combine with the furniture of common sense? we shall ask ourselves, and shall have to answer “not too well”: the singer does not always have room for his gestures, the tables and chairs get broken, and the novel through which bardic influence has passed often has a wrecked air, like a drawing-room after an earthquake or a children’s party. Readers of D. H.
    Lawrence will understand what I mean.

    Prophecy—in our sense—is a tone of voice. It may imply any of the faiths that have haunted humanity—Christianity, Buddhism, dualism, Satanism, or the mere raising of human love and hatred to such a power that their normal receptacles no longer contain them: but what particular view of the universe is recommended—with that we are not directly concerned. It is the implication that signifies and will filter into the turns of the novelist’s phrase, and in this lecture, which promises to be so vague and grandiose, we may come nearer than elsewhere to the minutiae of style. We shall have to attend to the novelist’s state of mind and to the actual words he uses; we shall neglect as far as we can the problems of common sense. As far as we can: for all novels contain tables and chairs, and most readers of fiction look for them first. Before we condemn him for affectation and distortion we must realize his view point. He is not looking at the tables and chairs at all, and that is why they are out of focus. We only see what he does not focus—not what he does—and in our blindness we laugh at him.

    I have said that each aspect of the novel demands a different quality in the reader. Well, the prophetic aspect demands two qualities: humility and the suspension of the sense of humour.
    Humility is a quality for which I have only a limited admiration. In many phases of life it is a great mistake and degenerates into defensiveness or hypocrisy. But humility is in place just now.
    Without its help we shall not hear the voice of the prophet, and our eyes will behold a figure of fun instead of his glory.
    And the sense of humour—that is out of place: that estimable adjunct of the educated man must be laid aside. Like the school-children in the Bible, one cannot help laughing at a prophet—his bald head is so absurd—but one can discount the laughter and realize that it has no critical value and is merely food for bears.
    ............................
    So, though I believe this lecture is on a genuine aspect of the novel, not a fake aspect, I can only think of four writers to illustrate it—Dostoevsky, Melville, D. H. Lawrence and Emily Bronte. Emily Bronte shall be left to the last, Dostoevsky I have alluded to, Melville is the centre of our picture, and the centre of Melville is Moby Dick.
     

    Replies: @David, @Inquiring Mind

    He wasn’t repressed. He dared readers to call him on it in his first book.

    [MORE]

    At first Kory-Kory goes to work quite leisurely, but gradually quickens his pace, and waxing warm in the employment, drives the stick furiously along the smoking channel, plying his hands to and fro with amazing rapidity, the perspiration starting from every pore. As he approaches the climax of his effort, he pants and gasps for breath, and his eyes almost start from their sockets with the violence of his exertions. This is the critical stage of the operation; all his previous labours are vain if he cannot sustain the rapidity of the movement until the reluctant spark is produced. Suddenly he stops, becoming perfectly motionless. His hands still retain their hold of the smaller stick, which is pressed convulsively against the further end of the channel among the fine powder there accumulated, as if he had just pierced through and through some little viper that was wriggling and struggling to escape from his clutches. The next moment a delicate wreath of smoke curls spirally into the air, the heap of dusty particles glows with fire, and Kory-Kory, almost breathless, dismounts from his steed.

  106. @El Dato

    Normally it’s in period war movies or other isolated situations where historically only men would appear, but some examples are a little more egregious.
     
    The word "egregious" is egregiously misused in the modern times of trueblue mindrot.

    Master And Commander: The Far Side Of The World
     
    Actually, there was a lady of the shore looking for business in one scene.

    Although females on sailing ships make for interesting stories

    https://i.postimg.cc/SKsDYSZM/La-Fille-sous-la-dunette-p36.png

    Replies: @donut, @Allen, @Dissident

    I’ve posted this before here but it’s an amazing legit story with a for real female heroine pregnant and alone with a mutinous chief mate and a doubtful crew accomplishing an amazing feat of seamanship all at the age of 19 . It would make a better movie than any of the absurd “strong woman crap” that’s out now .

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Ann_Brown_Patten

    And if they want to make a movie about a real negro hero they could try Nigger Britt Johnson :

    https://dudleysdiary.blogspot.com/2018/02/the-killing-of-britt-johnson-frontier_15.html

  107. Top five greatest movies made:

    1. Star Wars
    2. Raiders
    3. Die Hard
    4. Rambo First Blood
    5. Rocky

    Honorable mention:

    Last Action Hero.

    • Replies: @obwandiyag
    @Whiskey

    God is your taste bad.

    Replies: @Stan Adams

  108. @Bardon Kaldian
    This is Alison Bechdel. And she is a woman - real, genetic woman.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Alison_Bechdel_at_the_Boston_Book_Festival.jpg/1280px-Alison_Bechdel_at_the_Boston_Book_Festival.jpg

    Wow...... I mean: Wow

    Replies: @James O'Meara, @Peter D. Bredon, @Russ, @Mr. Anon, @Aardvark, @Mike Tre, @donut, @Anon, @MBlanc46, @Yancey Ward

    And she is “comic artist”? Yeah, I’ll bet she’s real funny.

  109. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    "I’d probably vote for Lawrence of Arabia as the greatest movie of all time."

    Oh, come on Steve. At least half dozen that were way better. Roshomon. Wild Strawberries. The Seventh Seal. The Godfather. Citizen Kane. The Searchers. Even Taxi Driver. Birth of a Nation is another one.

    "The top two are fairly gay."

    So is Lawrence, btw. Homoerotically to the max.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @Reg Cæsar, @Ancient Briton

    “The top two are fairly gay.”

    So is Lawrence, btw. Homoerotically to the max.

    Do they show him being beaten at breakfast by his camel boy? As in real life?

    How many people convert to both Islam and BDSM?

    Dashcams show Mecca to be like any other modern commercial city. (You ain’t missin’ nothin’ by being banned.) How robust is the gay scene there?

    If you’re interested and you’ve got an hour and a half to spare, Mecca may be in the wrong spot.

    • Thanks: Neoconned
    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Reg Cæsar

    Uh, Reg, what kind of adult entertainment are you into?

    , @Lot
    @Reg Cæsar

    Mecca and Medina are charmless because the Saudis have the same extreme anti-idolatry views as ISIS and destroyed nearly all the old religious buildings.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_early_Islamic_heritage_sites_in_Saudi_Arabia

    Replies: @donut

    , @prosa123
    @Reg Cæsar

    Indeed, many Muslims have blasted the Saudis for commercializing Mecca. Some point out that Jordan has a stronger historical case for running the city.

    , @Bubba
    @Reg Cæsar

    Wow! That seems much more civilized than driving in Riyadh! I just couldn’t get used to the Riyadh drivers in the right lane at stop light who had no issue with immediately making a left hand turn across 4 lanes of same direction traffic when the light turned green.

  110. Melville is an an acquired taste that’s worth acquiring. If you judge a book by how much you enjoy having read it versus how much you enjoy reading it, read Moby Dick.

    But if you want pleasure from the first note and want to get to know Melville, I recommend The Encantadas. It’s a description of the Galapagos Islands, and a good place to start.

    http://www.gutenberg.org/files/15859/15859-h/15859-h.htm#toc_6

  111. One thing noticeable from that list is that a lot of those movies are quite good. The Thing, The Great Escape, The Enemy Below, Sleuth, Glengarry Glen Ross, Master And Commander: The Far Side Of The World, Lawrence Of Arabia are all well above average.

    And – Sleuth? There are only 3 cast members (spoiler alert: actually just 2). Is it that surprising that it doesn’t have any women in it.

    Why not mention every prison or submarine movie or just about every war movie: Papillon, The Shawshank Redemption, Escape from Alcatraz, Das Boot, Ice Station Zebra, Sink the Bismark, Tora Tora Tora, etc.

    Maybe they should make more movies without women.

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
    @Mr. Anon

    Papillon (1973) had 2 women in the cast:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papillon_(1973_film)#Cast


    • Ratna Assan as Zoraima
    • Anne Byrne as Mrs. Dega (uncredited)
     

    https://editorial01.shutterstock.com/wm-preview-1500/5885869b/ba4ded06/papillon-1973-shutterstock-editorial-5885869b.jpg
  112. @Anon
    OT

    Was Phil Spector the latest elderly Covid victim?

    https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-01-17/phil-spector-dead

    Weirdly I had just finished watching YouTube videos from the Wrecking Crew documentary where those ace studio musicians talked about how Spector made his records. Brian Wilson was hanging out in the studio crowd in all the photos.

    Replies: @Clyde, @Peter D. Bredon

    Was Phil Spector the latest elderly Covid victim?
    https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-01-17/phil-spector-dead
    Weirdly I had just finished watching YouTube videos from the Wrecking Crew documentary where those ace studio musicians talked about how Spector made his records. Brian Wilson was hanging out in the studio crowd in all the photos.

    Jack Nitzsche was the genius behind Phil Spector. You can read his Wikipedia entry. I think Phil Spector was able to be a better front in LA due to being Jewish, while Nitzsche did much of the real grunt work and arranging for Phil Spector produced records. “Wall of Sound” and so on. Nitzsche also is on many Stones and Neil Young recordings. Nitzsche was tight with Sonny Bono who actually had one of his tunes recorded by the Rolling Stones. Bono – “She Said Yeah”

    Early Stones recorded in London, Chicago (Chess Rec), Los Angeles etc. Whenever they recorded in LA, during an American tour, Nitzsche was in the studio with them. Usually on keyboards of some kind

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Clyde

    Wasn't Jack Nietzsche the guy responsible for the passage of California's rape by instrumentality law after he stuck a pistol up ... you get the picture. I can't remember if this was before or after Phil Spector pointed a gun at Joey Ramone.

    , @MEH 0910
    @Clyde

    Jack Nitzsche produced Graham Parker and the Rumour's 1979 album Squeezing Out Sparks.

    Squeezing Out Sparks playlist:
    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLjO4QRS_y93N2XOG2RdS55baq86GsQE71

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squeezing_Out_Sparks#Background


    Whereas Parker's previous albums were notable for their strong soul influences, with many prominent tracks and singles including a horn section, on Squeezing Out Sparks producer Jack Nitzsche favoured a rawer sound. Coincidentally, popular punk band the Clash were undergoing a reverse process, trying to expand their musical arrangements. Therefore, the Rumour's rhythm and blues session players went on to record all the horn parts in the Clash's third and praised record London Calling.
     
  113. @TBA
    Lord of the Flies: a group of school boys stranded on an island. Obviously no women. Now, they hadn't quite reached puberty yet. If they'd stayed on that island until they did reach puberty - being English public school boys, and no girls around - there would have been a lot of buggery. An orgy of PC.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Dissident

    I’ve addressed this before ….

    Would Lord of the Flies have any meaning with girls instead of boys?

    Well: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/15-hilarious-women-respond-to-the-all-female-lord-of-the-flies-remake_n_59a80f16e4b010ca289aa631

    https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2020/12/the-wilds-tv-show-review-lord-of-the-flies-amazon
    ………………

    “The all-female Lord of the Flies will just be a group of young women apologizing to each other over and over till everyone is dead,” wrote Jessica Valenti.) Still more argued the opposite—that we’ve already seen plenty of stories about what happens when teenage girls form their own sub-societies and unleash their cruelty upon one another. Lord of the Flies with girls would be almost too real, they said, echoing an old John Mulaney joke about how women just don’t get along: “Ocean’s 11 with women wouldn’t work, because two would keep breaking off to talk shit about the other nine.”

    Feminist author Roxane Gay tweeted, “An all women remake of Lord of the Flies makes no sense because… the plot of that book wouldn’t happen with all women.”

    • Replies: @Gordo
    @Bardon Kaldian


    Feminist author Roxane Gay tweeted, “An all women remake of Lord of the Flies makes no sense because… the plot of that book wouldn’t happen with all women.”
     
    It wouldn't happen with all men either.

    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/may/09/the-real-lord-of-the-flies-what-happened-when-six-boys-were-shipwrecked-for-15-months

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

  114. Moby Dick is about four books in one. The main line plot is the rendering of a true tale about a white whale that lived around the island of Mocha, off the coast of Chile.

  115. @SFG
    @Achmed E. Newman

    LOL. Thing is, back then you had nothing else to do for hours in the winter and long books were the way you got your money's worth. Not to mention all the endless descriptions that were probably a lot of fun when movies didn't exist (this is an insight I have never heard before Steve, TBH).

    "All golden and lovely it blazed in the sunset, with walls, temples, colonnades, and arched bridges of veined marble, silver-basined fountains of prismatic spray in broad squares and perfumed gardens, and wide streets marching between delicate trees and blossom-laden urns and ivory statues in gleaming rows; while on steep northward slopes climbed tiers of red roofs and old peaked gables harbouring little lanes of grassy cobbles. It was a fever of the gods; a fanfare of supernal trumpets and a clash of immortal cymbals..."

    Come on, Howie, get to the tentacles.

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon, @RichardTaylor, @Peter D. Bredon, @Jus' Sayin'..., @Achmed E. Newman, @syonredux

    “All golden and lovely it blazed in the sunset, with walls, temples, colonnades, and arched bridges of veined marble, silver-basined fountains of prismatic spray in broad squares and perfumed gardens, and wide streets marching between delicate trees and blossom-laden urns and ivory statues in gleaming rows; while on steep northward slopes climbed tiers of red roofs and old peaked gables harbouring little lanes of grassy cobbles. It was a fever of the gods; a fanfare of supernal trumpets and a clash of immortal cymbals…”

    The prolixity of pulp magazine fiction owed a lot to the fact that writers were paid by the word. A lot of 19th century literature was serialized. The longer individual novels were the more income was generated for both the magazine’s publisher and the writer.

  116. @BB753
    @SFG

    Nowadays, young men seem accutely aware that older gay men might be hitting on them at any time, as it's homophobic not to be subjected to their courting.
    I don't look the part, but young straight men often shy away from me or display unease when I try to befriend them or when I am just being polite and making small conversation with them. Gays ruin everything. Male company, male friendship, male everything.

    Replies: @James O'Meara, @Marty, @Alexandros

    Well, if you (or the Tribe) tell them that not only is it the Greatest of All Sins but that if you’re approached by a homosexual you’re probably One of Them yourself, that’s what happens. Now, if you were Walter White, propositioning Jesse Pinkman to join him in a meth operation, that would be manly and OK, right?

    How would a real, old-school WASP manly man handle it? Here’s how Lauren Bacall tells it:

    “Noel Coward and Bogie were guests of Clifton Webb one weekend. Bogie and Noël were assigned to the same room and Noël was gay, as everybody on Earth knew, but nobody cared, because he was so great. Just to be in his presence was quite enough. And at the end of the evening one night, they were changing into their PJs to hit the sack. Bogie was sitting on the edge of the bed, and at one point put his hand on Noël’s knee. Bogie said: ‘Noël, I have to tell you that if I had my druthers and I liked guys you would be the one I’d want to be with. But, unfortunately, I like girls.’ And from that moment on Noël never mentioned it, and Bogie never mentioned it. Class behavior! And they became fast, fast friends.”

    I like how Bogie just assumes that Noel would come on to him; he is Bogart, after all, the ultimate Male. But Bogart is mainly concerned with being polite and sparing Noel’s feelings, like the old NYC aristo he was. (Was it Queen Victoria who drank from a finger bowl after a guest did so?). A manly Man of Unz would likely cave in his skull with an ashtray.
    Sleeping in the same bed! Shades of Ishmael!

    • LOL: BB753
  117. @Harry Baldwin
    Sergio Leone's epic "Man With No Name" trilogy has no women characters that appear for more than a few seconds.

    Fourth season Rick and Morty has an episode that includes a spoof of the Bechdel Test.

    Replies: @James O'Meara, @mark green

    Honest question: the “fourth” part of the trilogy, Once Upon a Time in America, of course has Claudia Cardinale. Does she detract from the film? She seems essential to the ending, depicting the domestication of the “wild” West. (Women may have “ruined” the Wild West but would they ruin movies about the ruin of the Wild West?)

    • Replies: @R.G. Camara
    @James O'Meara

    Considering she was a prostitute domesticated by the red-headed dude in search of a fitting replacement for his dead wife/mother to his kids, there's much in there about the domestication of the West affecting men and women, as well as allowing for fresh starts.

    Prostitution in the old West flourished due to a lot of lonely guys and only a few available women, but once men pacified it to a reasonable extent enough women showed up such that brothels were no longer the huge business they had been, and then the new women got the old whorehouses shut down (as they were competition for the new women and also didn't gibe with the new women's religious sensibilities).

    Replies: @black sea

    , @syonredux
    @James O'Meara


    (Women may have “ruined” the Wild West but would they ruin movies about the ruin of the Wild West?)

     

    Howard Hawks and John Ford had great female characters in their Westerns.
  118. @Known Fact
    Numerous war, adventure or astronaut movies would have worked just fine without women, but the producers could not resist the urge to shoehorn in a Geena Davis or Nancy Allen type to whip up some emoting back home, I suppose to help create a more viable date movie. And now of course there must be a woman on the mission, leading the crew or at least handling the high-tech.

    Movies that very ably inserted a female character on the front lines, not mere gender window-dressing, include Alien (Siggy Weaver) and MASH (Sally Kellerman and then Loretta Swit on TV). I'm a Catch-22 person, not a MASH person, but Heller's work and the subsequent film failed to create a memorable female character (as much as I like Paula Prentiss)

    Replies: @Jus' Sayin'..., @Peter D. Bredon

    but Heller’s work and the subsequent film failed to create a memorable female character (as much as I like Paula Prentiss)

    IIRC, General Dreedle’s WAC was pretty memorable with nipples the size of Bing cherries.

  119. @Sioux County Guy
    Moby-Dick has thorough knowledge of the Bible. And in the Bible, to accept idolatry is akin to sexual deviance. Hence that scene, where Ishmael compares his relationship to Queequeg as one of husband to wife.

    That scene is also trolling the Christian missions folks at the time, who claimed to love the pagans and heathens of the world so much that they would do anything for them.

    Replies: @James O'Meara

    Yes, indeed, that is the main theme, at least as Melville originally conceived (!) it. Contrary to some opinions above, MD could easily be taught as an epic of Wokism, and probably is if it’s taught at all. Natives and slaves are idolized, Christian are all hypocrites (the Quaker ship owners) or fanatics like Ahab.

    The association of sexual deviance with idolatry (religious deviance, “heresy” is Greek for “choice”) is the root of the Hebrew homohate. Pagan cultures may have deplored it but they never made it The Ultimate Sin, since creedal orthodoxy wasn’t part of polytheism either. Hate homos as much as you want, but if you don’t make what Assmann (!) calls The Mosaic Distinction, that move from J-C to paganism drains all the energy goes out of it.

    • Replies: @Dissident
    @James O'Meara


    Hate homos as much as you want,
     
    The actual view of Judaism in this area is considerably more complex and nuanced, as well as more humane, than your simplistic, tendentious characterizations would imply.

    First, Judaism does not define individuals based upon the nature or direction of their proclivities or lusts, whether sexual or any other type. Certain acts and behaviors, which are volitional, are proscribed, and those who knowingly engage in them are chastised. Individuals are not judged for mere feelings or desires that are involuntary (regardless of ultimate origin) but only on how they choose to respond to them.

    Beyond any of the specific prohibitions that various acts entail, any ideology, lifestyle or identity based upon, or positively affirming any form of homoeroticism is incompatible with and antithetical to the heteronormative, procreative, traditional nuclear family that is the foundational core upon which Judaic life is built, centers around, and perpetuates.[1]

    While all forms of erotic carnal intimacy or arousal outside of the confines of sacred matrimony are prohibited and condemned, buggery[2] between males (at a minimum [3]) is singled-out for particular, especially severe censure and punishment.[3]

    The association of sexual deviance with idolatry (religious deviance, “heresy” is Greek for “choice”) is the root of the Hebrew homohate. [sic] Pagan cultures may have deplored it but they never made it The Ultimate Sin,
     
    Common misconceptions and claims to the contrary notwithstanding, it is atheism, denial of G-d, that is the ultimate evil in Judaism. Such abject heresy is worse than even idolatry or any of the other cardinal sins for which one must give his life rather than transgress. So fundamental is belief in G-d in Judaism, that Naḥmanides (c. 1174-1290) does not count it as one of the 613 numbered commandments found within the Pentateuch, but rather a prerequisite for all the others. As the Ramban (Naḥmanides) puts it, "There can be no commandments without a Commander."

    NOTES
    [1] In fact, the home, more than the synagogue, is of primary priority in Judaism.

    [2] Buggery= anal penetration; the patently nocuous, inordinately disease-promoting travesty of treating an anatomical structure that is exclusively eliminatory in its function as if it were copulative.

    [3] There is a dispute among the rabbis whether the specific verses in Leviticus that speak of a man lying with another man as if he were a woman refer only to the specific act of buggery or include other forms of male carnal intimacy. Even according to those who maintain the former, the latter would still be strictly prohibited, they just would not qualify as capital offenses.

    Concerning capital punishment in Judaism, the following must be noted. While the practice did exist in ancient Israel while the Temple stood, the requirements that had to be met before it could be carried-out were so rigorous and difficult to meet, that only rarely was anyone actually executed.

    Replies: @Alexandros

  120. @Aeronerauk
    The Thing was gay? That's new.

    Replies: @Peter D. Bredon

    “The Thing,” huh huh, huh huh.

  121. @HA
    @J.Ross

    "So, as a result of the lockdown, this year Sailer is … twelve? The Great Escape is gay? "

    I realize I probably won't be the first to correct you and Bill B. and Old Prude, but no, the top two on the above list are actually "Billy Budd" and "Lawrence of Arabia" -- those are the ones he characterized as "fairly gay", and clearly, at least in the case of the latter, you agree.

    If you're going to be that vehemently judgmental, you ought to read more carefully before popping off (in particular, the sentence that clearly says: "Counting down from #15 to #1."

    Replies: @vhrm, @J.Ross

    huh. I didn’t get that… which also led me to wonder why the heck Moby Dick had to do with anything.

    (because it is also by Melville, like Billy Budd which is #2)

  122. @Reg Cæsar
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi


    “The top two are fairly gay.”

    So is Lawrence, btw. Homoerotically to the max.
     
    Do they show him being beaten at breakfast by his camel boy? As in real life?

    How many people convert to both Islam and BDSM?

    Dashcams show Mecca to be like any other modern commercial city. (You ain't missin' nothin' by being banned.) How robust is the gay scene there?



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_j0EflVRZo

    If you're interested and you've got an hour and a half to spare, Mecca may be in the wrong spot.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Lot, @prosa123, @Bubba

    Uh, Reg, what kind of adult entertainment are you into?

  123. @Reg Cæsar
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi


    “The top two are fairly gay.”

    So is Lawrence, btw. Homoerotically to the max.
     
    Do they show him being beaten at breakfast by his camel boy? As in real life?

    How many people convert to both Islam and BDSM?

    Dashcams show Mecca to be like any other modern commercial city. (You ain't missin' nothin' by being banned.) How robust is the gay scene there?



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_j0EflVRZo

    If you're interested and you've got an hour and a half to spare, Mecca may be in the wrong spot.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Lot, @prosa123, @Bubba

    Mecca and Medina are charmless because the Saudis have the same extreme anti-idolatry views as ISIS and destroyed nearly all the old religious buildings.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_early_Islamic_heritage_sites_in_Saudi_Arabia

    • Replies: @donut
    @Lot

    "Mecca and Medina are charmless because the Saudis have the same extreme anti-idolatry views as ISIS and destroyed nearly all the old religious buildings."

    You're right about ISIS and the Saudi religious authorities but there is more to it than that . I was stationed in the Gulf in the 70's . I got the impression that the Gulf Arabs just don't value anything old . To them new is good . An example : I bought an old antique carpet in Karachi . When I mentioned it to a Bahraini friend he was puzzled as to why I would buy an old carpet when the souks are full of new ones . That was in the Gulf and they were recklessly tearing down all the old buildings and quarters for new construction . I was lucky to be there in the 70's when there was still a lot of old stuff still around . In Dubai I had to take a boat to cross the creek there . In Muscat , Abu Dhabi , Dubai , Bahrain and the Persian ports I visited you could still get a sense of what life had been like for centuries . Kuwait at that time was already a totally new city , malls , highways and new housing every where .
    The Countries on the Mediterranean that I spent any time in , Syria and Egypt where very aware of the value of preserving the relics of their past .
    According to some youtube videos I've seen recently there seems to be a growing movement to preserve some of what they have left . In Oman the people in some areas are rehabbing some abandoned villages and spending some of their time living in the old family homes . What's encouraging about this trend it's not government sponsored but rather a grass roots thing except they don't have any grass .

  124. Anon[421] • Disclaimer says:
    @Boswald Bollocksworth
    Moby Dick is *not* gay. Ishmael is just naive.

    surprised Steve doesn't see this, being born in the late 50s, but then he *is* a C*lifornian!

    As others have mentioned, the American requirement to maintain a certain amount of physical distance from other men is very much an externality of the homosexualist cultural jihad. Further back in the modern period, it largely does not occur to people that there's an association between males being physically close and the unnatural vice, because people hardly thought of such behavior. Even 10 years ago I remember being shocked by two German men with girlfriends sitting extremely close to each other on a couch, but in Germany, they hadn't had the full homosexualist jihad yet. You can go to all sorts of cultures, even today, and see similar. In China, male friends hold freaking hands, and the unnatural vice does not occur to them, very rare in China.

    Replies: @Anon, @martin_2, @Marty

    Exactly. Men sharing a bed in an inn was very common in bygone days. It says a lot about modern Fagerican culture that this strikes a “conservative” author as gay. Ditto for men riding or doing physical activities bare chested. Remember the Fagerican snickering about Putin barechested photos?
    Face it, modern US is a Big Fag overflowing its faggish mores to the rest of the world.

  125. @Buffalo Joe
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Yoji, The "Godfather" is great and could have been made without a female role and "Saving Private Ryan" has no women to speak of but it is a guy flick and "Lawrence" is in my top 10. Not too crazy about romantic movies but for a movie with women in major roles I'll take "The Graduate."

    Replies: @SunBakedSuburb, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @prosa123

    Wasn’t specifically naming great films with an all male cast. Was thinking of films that are far greater, artistically speaking, than LOR.

    Maurice Jarre writes a romantically, erotically tinged score and not a single woman in the film. The main theme is about women and men copulating. Joseph Mankiewicz should’ve used the theme in his Cleopatra (1963) starring Liz and Dick, and the point would’ve been that much more explicit. Instead you get a great romantic theme….and not a single woman of note in the picture. Unbelievable.

    Don’t think there was a woman in the main cast of The Longest Day (1962). I’ll put that film up vs LOR any time any day of the week.

    Patton (1970), there’s a far greater film than LOR. And it doesn’t contain a single woman in the cast. Won Best Picture Academy Award and did well at the box office.

  126. @Buffalo Joe
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Yoji, The "Godfather" is great and could have been made without a female role and "Saving Private Ryan" has no women to speak of but it is a guy flick and "Lawrence" is in my top 10. Not too crazy about romantic movies but for a movie with women in major roles I'll take "The Graduate."

    Replies: @SunBakedSuburb, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @prosa123

    The “Godfather” is great and could have been made without a female role

    Not true. Looking just at the original, there were three subplots involving women that were absolutely essential to the storyline.

    1. Carlo’s savage beating of Connie was the one and only thing that could have drawn Sonny out of his refuge in the family compound into the toll booth ambush.
    2. Apollonia’s car bomb murder in Sicily set Michael on an irreversible course to become part of the crime family, dashing his hopes of returning to a normal life after the furor over the shootings of Sollozzo and McCluskey died down.
    3. Kay’s gradual understanding of Michael’s true nature, and her eventual acceptance of it, also was vital to his transformation into his new role as Family boss.

    In contrast, the movie did not use the novel’s ludicrous subplot involving Sonny and Lucy Mancini. It wouldn’t have added anything to the storyline, would have prolonged an already long movie, and would have been difficult to handle in a non-pornographic manner.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @prosa123

    Basically all art is not “realistic” in any deeper or, better, conventional sense. A film (novel, drama, painting, ..) can be experienced as “real”, but not “realistic”. Real means it has something to do with our perception of the world; fake would mean it is evidently- well, fake.

    A movie can be good even if it is mostly out of touch with social & psychological reality. The Godfather, for instance, is absurdly lying about life it depicts, but is a successful film. Vito/Brando is depicted as some kind of patriarchal sage, while in reality all big Mafia bosses were ugly sociopaths without redeeming qualities; Michael/Pacino is a hero who, out of necessity, becomes a villain or hero-villain. Nothing similar in the history of organized crime.

    The Silence of the Lambs is completely fake. A psycho with Hannibal Lecter’s IQ would go into politics & not waste his time on cannibalism. Cannibals are low IQ & obsessive, psychologically not only deranged, but unable to focus on anything beyond their ghastly psychopathology.

    But enough with the cinema, that low form of creation.

    The highest narrative forms are to be found in imaginative literature. Even those considered to be the peak of it are sociologically, historically, perhaps psychologically … not conventionally realistic. Hamlet is about revenge that involves whole human universe & is the most powerful representation of a hero of consciousness- but, what it has to do with a revenge?; The Possessed is the supreme metaphysical novel about perennial questions, but it has nothing to do with revolutionaries of any sort; War and Peace heavily misrepresents Napoleon, who was a super-human genius, as some kind of pompous prick.

    All narratives, literature & film & comics, succeed if they somehow offer us insight into Reality & make our “souls” bigger, wiser, sadder, … or change us. Of course, no-one would expect us that we take Dante and Kafka as “real” as Zola or Chekhov. But all these guys are ultimately not “realistic”.

    And all WW2 movies, westerns, gangster films, romances …. are completely fake. And so what?

    , @James O'Meara
    @prosa123

    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man." -- Don Vito

    Replies: @Hapalong Cassidy

    , @additionalMike
    @prosa123

    True about the Lucy Mancini subplot. Try to imagine how a female audience in 1972 would have reacted to the surgical tightening of Lucy's, err... hoo-hah (or, for that matter, how they would react to it today). Not good.
    Coppola's genius was to preserve only the good parts of an overall, not-very-good book.

    , @Buffalo Joe
    @prosa123

    prosa, in the book Michael avenges Appolonia's murder, not in the movie. So maybe the movie works without Appolonia, who by the way, was gorgeous. Sunny could have been drawn out by harming Fredo perhaps, don't know, but he was a loose cannon. Kay was a prop to humanize a murderer, and rare is the Don who marries outside of the clan. But your points are good and well written. Stay safe.

    Replies: @prosa123

  127. @Bardon Kaldian
    This is Alison Bechdel. And she is a woman - real, genetic woman.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Alison_Bechdel_at_the_Boston_Book_Festival.jpg/1280px-Alison_Bechdel_at_the_Boston_Book_Festival.jpg

    Wow...... I mean: Wow

    Replies: @James O'Meara, @Peter D. Bredon, @Russ, @Mr. Anon, @Aardvark, @Mike Tre, @donut, @Anon, @MBlanc46, @Yancey Ward

    There has to be some study somewhere that confirms that women who choose to look like this are missing some estrogen, particularly the Estriol variant.

  128. @MEH 0910
    @Known Fact


    But with an all-stud cast led by Burt Lancaster, Paul Winfield and Richard Widmark —
     
    Paul Winfield was gay.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Winfield#Personal_life_and_death

    Winfield was gay, but remained discreet about it in the public eye. Prior to realizing his sexuality, he had a relationship with his Sounder co-star Cicely Tyson for 18 months.[10] His partner of 30 years, architect Charles Gillan Jr., died on March 5, 2002, of bone cancer.[11] Winfield long battled obesity and diabetes. He died of a heart attack in 2004 at age 64 at Queen of Angels – Hollywood Presbyterian Medical Center in Los Angeles.[12] Winfield and Gillan are interred together at Forest Lawn Memorial Park in Los Angeles.[13]
     

    Replies: @Known Fact

    18 months with Cicely Tyson could turn anyone gay

    • LOL: MEH 0910
    • Replies: @MEH 0910
    @Known Fact

    https://twitter.com/Variety/status/1354948991213998087

    https://twitter.com/Variety/status/1354976306002333698

  129. This guy actually sounds pretty smart.

  130. @Reg Cæsar
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi


    “The top two are fairly gay.”

    So is Lawrence, btw. Homoerotically to the max.
     
    Do they show him being beaten at breakfast by his camel boy? As in real life?

    How many people convert to both Islam and BDSM?

    Dashcams show Mecca to be like any other modern commercial city. (You ain't missin' nothin' by being banned.) How robust is the gay scene there?



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_j0EflVRZo

    If you're interested and you've got an hour and a half to spare, Mecca may be in the wrong spot.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Lot, @prosa123, @Bubba

    Indeed, many Muslims have blasted the Saudis for commercializing Mecca. Some point out that Jordan has a stronger historical case for running the city.

  131. @Old Prude
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Jeezus, you people are really something. Moby Dick is a great, fantastic noir novel. Absolutely a gem. All you boys have to say is "Look, it has the work "dick" in the title. It must be gay...tee hee."

    I recommend, if one was to purchase the book, get the version with the Rockwell Kent etchings. Uh, oh, now I get to hear the Men of Unz go on about Rockwell Kent being a gay commie.

    Replies: @vinteuil, @Achmed E. Newman

    Jeezus, you people are really something.

    Well, yeah, the occasional philistinism of the dissident right sometimes gets me down.

    And yet – they’re on to something, aren’t they? I mean, what’s up with the crazy over-representation of gay people in American literature (Dickinson, Melville, Whitman, Cather &c), and music (MacDowell, Copland, Barber &c) – to say nothing of the visual arts?

    Melville’s Billy Budd is so gay that it just couldn’t be any gayer – a fact not lost on England’s last great composer, Sir Benjamin Britten:

    • Replies: @James O'Meara
    @vinteuil

    Back in the 60s someone named Geismar wrote "Henry James and the Jacobites" trying to head off the growing cult of Henry James as a "genius." Apparently James was largely forgotten, and his later novels mocked as elephantine, but after WWII some Phoenician academics decided to make him a "titan of American literature."

    Someone once called Edith Wharton "a more masculine Henry James." Geismar much preferred more manly writers like Hemingway or Jack London. On the other hand, he was a Commie, and wanted to promote "proletarian" literature, so there's that too.

    Melville was also forgotten until the turn of the last century; clearly certain groups can take control of academic circles and promote their own agendas.

  132. OT:

    In case you were misinformed about what kind of batrachians and overt fascists come out of Harvard:

    Students At Yale, Harvard And University Of Missouri Turn Up The Pressure On GOP Senators

    and

    Harvard students & alumni petition university to REVOKE DEGREES of Ted Cruz, other grads who supported Trump’s election claims

    “Harvard values democracy, equality and the rule of law,” the petitioners said. “Does it value them enough to hold its own alumni accountable for the most flagrant attack on these principles in recent history?” The group repeatedly attributed the election-fraud protest to skin color, asking, “Is Harvard University prepared to take a stand for representative democracy and against violent white supremacy?”

    The campaign to revoke degrees follows a petition earlier this month – led by Yale and Harvard students and alumni – calling for Cruz and Yale alumnus Josh Hawley (R-Missouri) to be disbarred from practicing law because of their election challenges. Civil rights lawyer Valarie Kaur said she supported the petition, even as Biden calls for unifying the politically polarized country, because there can be “no healing without accountability.”

    • Replies: @Known Fact
    @El Dato

    OMG it's The Columns, one for every virgin to graduate Mizzou! This must be the first time my beloved alma mater has ever been mentioned in the same sentence with Yale and Harvard

    , @PiltdownMan
    @El Dato

    Kaur is Sikh last name.

    And her Twitter bio confirms it.


    Civil Rights Lawyer, Mother, Sikh Woman Warrior.
     
  133. @theMann
    1. Funny how when anybody talk about a film being good, they never start with a good script, competent direction, and then good acting. And I offer two reasons why there are far less Female than Male roles in films:
    A) Most Actresses aren't very good.
    B) the Prancing Faggots of Hollywood don't know women at all, do they?

    2. Since a new era of book burning is hard upon us, I will dedicate myself to taking out Moby Dick and The Scarlet Letter. Generations of schoolkids will thank me. Ok, they wont know who to thank, or why, but still......

    Replies: @Inquiring Mind, @Nicholas Stix

    The Scarlet Letter is not about Puritan repression of expression and strumpet shaming and the male/female double standard.

    The book really isn’t about its female character Hester, rather, it is about the two men in her life: the minister who had Game and the scholar who didn’t, especially his sense of resentment. It is one book read in high school that is really about high school.

    High school students really need to read it, especially the men. Were this book understood, it would et banned quickly.

  134. @prosa123
    @Buffalo Joe

    The “Godfather” is great and could have been made without a female role

    Not true. Looking just at the original, there were three subplots involving women that were absolutely essential to the storyline.

    1. Carlo's savage beating of Connie was the one and only thing that could have drawn Sonny out of his refuge in the family compound into the toll booth ambush.
    2. Apollonia's car bomb murder in Sicily set Michael on an irreversible course to become part of the crime family, dashing his hopes of returning to a normal life after the furor over the shootings of Sollozzo and McCluskey died down.
    3. Kay's gradual understanding of Michael's true nature, and her eventual acceptance of it, also was vital to his transformation into his new role as Family boss.

    In contrast, the movie did not use the novel's ludicrous subplot involving Sonny and Lucy Mancini. It wouldn't have added anything to the storyline, would have prolonged an already long movie, and would have been difficult to handle in a non-pornographic manner.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @James O'Meara, @additionalMike, @Buffalo Joe

    Basically all art is not “realistic” in any deeper or, better, conventional sense. A film (novel, drama, painting, ..) can be experienced as “real”, but not “realistic”. Real means it has something to do with our perception of the world; fake would mean it is evidently- well, fake.

    A movie can be good even if it is mostly out of touch with social & psychological reality. The Godfather, for instance, is absurdly lying about life it depicts, but is a successful film. Vito/Brando is depicted as some kind of patriarchal sage, while in reality all big Mafia bosses were ugly sociopaths without redeeming qualities; Michael/Pacino is a hero who, out of necessity, becomes a villain or hero-villain. Nothing similar in the history of organized crime.

    The Silence of the Lambs is completely fake. A psycho with Hannibal Lecter’s IQ would go into politics & not waste his time on cannibalism. Cannibals are low IQ & obsessive, psychologically not only deranged, but unable to focus on anything beyond their ghastly psychopathology.

    But enough with the cinema, that low form of creation.

    The highest narrative forms are to be found in imaginative literature. Even those considered to be the peak of it are sociologically, historically, perhaps psychologically … not conventionally realistic. Hamlet is about revenge that involves whole human universe & is the most powerful representation of a hero of consciousness- but, what it has to do with a revenge?; The Possessed is the supreme metaphysical novel about perennial questions, but it has nothing to do with revolutionaries of any sort; War and Peace heavily misrepresents Napoleon, who was a super-human genius, as some kind of pompous prick.

    All narratives, literature & film & comics, succeed if they somehow offer us insight into Reality & make our “souls” bigger, wiser, sadder, … or change us. Of course, no-one would expect us that we take Dante and Kafka as “real” as Zola or Chekhov. But all these guys are ultimately not “realistic”.

    And all WW2 movies, westerns, gangster films, romances …. are completely fake. And so what?

  135. Sailer has always had really bad, embarrassing even, taste in novels and film. And he’s a film critic!

  136. @Bardon Kaldian
    My opinion is somewhat different.

    Melville was not, in my view, a repressed homosexual (this idea is the one such a wise man as E.M.Forster- himself a homosexual- got wrong. Otherwise, Forster is right about most issues.) There is no indication for that, just modern & postmodern lascivious dirty mind snooping in other peoples' lives plus annoying homo propaganda, which tends to distort our perception of man's impulses & behavior in other historical times.

    But -enough with this marginal gay stuff.

    Moby Dick is a not a novel by normative standards; it is a hybrid of romance & anatomy (the best example of anatomy is Robert Burton's The Anatomy of Melancholy; in Moby Dick these are long expatiations on whaling most readers find tiresome). Then, Melville is a prophetic writer -here, Forster was right - along with Dostoevsky, or all of Empedocles, many Plato's dialogs, Nietzsche in Zarathustra, Jung in Septem Sermones & Marx and Engels in The Communist Manifesto.

    Prophecy is anchored in the archaic, primitive mind; speaking in accepted & a bit antiquated terms- a prophet is possessed by his daimon or god. He tries to articulate, with more or less success, through his rational mind the vision his gods or subliminal self or his partially & temporary deranged mind/brain have imparted/created.

    If one cannot "get" this kind of stuff- better drop it. Dump it. Forster, again...


    WITH prophecy in the narrow sense of foretelling the future we have no concern, and we have not much concern with it as an appeal for righteousness. What will interest us today—what we must respond to, for interest now becomes an inappropriate word—is an accent in the novelist’s voice, an accent for which the flutes and saxophones of fantasy may have prepared us. His theme is the universe, or something universal, but he is not necessarily going to “say” anything about the universe; he proposes to sing, and the strangeness of song arising in the halls of fiction is bound to give us a shock. How will song combine with the furniture of common sense? we shall ask ourselves, and shall have to answer “not too well”: the singer does not always have room for his gestures, the tables and chairs get broken, and the novel through which bardic influence has passed often has a wrecked air, like a drawing-room after an earthquake or a children’s party. Readers of D. H.
    Lawrence will understand what I mean.

    Prophecy—in our sense—is a tone of voice. It may imply any of the faiths that have haunted humanity—Christianity, Buddhism, dualism, Satanism, or the mere raising of human love and hatred to such a power that their normal receptacles no longer contain them: but what particular view of the universe is recommended—with that we are not directly concerned. It is the implication that signifies and will filter into the turns of the novelist’s phrase, and in this lecture, which promises to be so vague and grandiose, we may come nearer than elsewhere to the minutiae of style. We shall have to attend to the novelist’s state of mind and to the actual words he uses; we shall neglect as far as we can the problems of common sense. As far as we can: for all novels contain tables and chairs, and most readers of fiction look for them first. Before we condemn him for affectation and distortion we must realize his view point. He is not looking at the tables and chairs at all, and that is why they are out of focus. We only see what he does not focus—not what he does—and in our blindness we laugh at him.

    I have said that each aspect of the novel demands a different quality in the reader. Well, the prophetic aspect demands two qualities: humility and the suspension of the sense of humour.
    Humility is a quality for which I have only a limited admiration. In many phases of life it is a great mistake and degenerates into defensiveness or hypocrisy. But humility is in place just now.
    Without its help we shall not hear the voice of the prophet, and our eyes will behold a figure of fun instead of his glory.
    And the sense of humour—that is out of place: that estimable adjunct of the educated man must be laid aside. Like the school-children in the Bible, one cannot help laughing at a prophet—his bald head is so absurd—but one can discount the laughter and realize that it has no critical value and is merely food for bears.
    ............................
    So, though I believe this lecture is on a genuine aspect of the novel, not a fake aspect, I can only think of four writers to illustrate it—Dostoevsky, Melville, D. H. Lawrence and Emily Bronte. Emily Bronte shall be left to the last, Dostoevsky I have alluded to, Melville is the centre of our picture, and the centre of Melville is Moby Dick.
     

    Replies: @David, @Inquiring Mind

    One name for iSteve readers:

    Caitlin Doughty of “Ask a Mortician”

    Here is her longish account of the Essex Disaster where a whale rammed and sank a whaling ship on the open ocean, said to be the “true story” inspiring Moby Dick:

    • Thanks: Pat Hannagan
  137. I read Moby Dick late in life and enjoyed it. The bit with the Pacific Islander at the start is funny. I must be a poor reader and naïve, but the gay hints missed me; but come to think of it, if Melville was having a bit of suggestive fun, he’s even funnier than I thought. But we have to appreciate the sight and strangeness of this Polynesian giant with tattoos on his neck walking around a New England whaling town in the 19th century–Melville writes from experience remember, and you probably did find the occasional exotic like this in real life. I think the American trope, worn out in old war movies, of the diverse band thrown together in battle begins with the crew of the Pequod.

    I know he’s owned by the guh-heys because of Billy Budd and all, but what have gays done other than wreck things since the sexual revolution? Including the artistic tradition of their good, old, closeted forbears. Gays are not going to ruin things for me.

  138. @HA
    @J.Ross

    "So, as a result of the lockdown, this year Sailer is … twelve? The Great Escape is gay? "

    I realize I probably won't be the first to correct you and Bill B. and Old Prude, but no, the top two on the above list are actually "Billy Budd" and "Lawrence of Arabia" -- those are the ones he characterized as "fairly gay", and clearly, at least in the case of the latter, you agree.

    If you're going to be that vehemently judgmental, you ought to read more carefully before popping off (in particular, the sentence that clearly says: "Counting down from #15 to #1."

    Replies: @vhrm, @J.Ross

    Oh. Never mind.
    (At least everyone else made the same mistake.)

  139. @prosa123
    @Buffalo Joe

    The “Godfather” is great and could have been made without a female role

    Not true. Looking just at the original, there were three subplots involving women that were absolutely essential to the storyline.

    1. Carlo's savage beating of Connie was the one and only thing that could have drawn Sonny out of his refuge in the family compound into the toll booth ambush.
    2. Apollonia's car bomb murder in Sicily set Michael on an irreversible course to become part of the crime family, dashing his hopes of returning to a normal life after the furor over the shootings of Sollozzo and McCluskey died down.
    3. Kay's gradual understanding of Michael's true nature, and her eventual acceptance of it, also was vital to his transformation into his new role as Family boss.

    In contrast, the movie did not use the novel's ludicrous subplot involving Sonny and Lucy Mancini. It wouldn't have added anything to the storyline, would have prolonged an already long movie, and would have been difficult to handle in a non-pornographic manner.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @James O'Meara, @additionalMike, @Buffalo Joe

    “A man who doesn’t spend time with his family can never be a real man.” — Don Vito

    • Replies: @Hapalong Cassidy
    @James O'Meara

    “I spent my whole life trying not to be careless. Women and children can afford to be careless, but not men.” - Don Vito

  140. @Boswald Bollocksworth
    Moby Dick is *not* gay. Ishmael is just naive.

    surprised Steve doesn't see this, being born in the late 50s, but then he *is* a C*lifornian!

    As others have mentioned, the American requirement to maintain a certain amount of physical distance from other men is very much an externality of the homosexualist cultural jihad. Further back in the modern period, it largely does not occur to people that there's an association between males being physically close and the unnatural vice, because people hardly thought of such behavior. Even 10 years ago I remember being shocked by two German men with girlfriends sitting extremely close to each other on a couch, but in Germany, they hadn't had the full homosexualist jihad yet. You can go to all sorts of cultures, even today, and see similar. In China, male friends hold freaking hands, and the unnatural vice does not occur to them, very rare in China.

    Replies: @Anon, @martin_2, @Marty

    In the sixties and seventies there was a much loved British comedy double act, Morecambe and Wise, and in their sketches they were shown sharing the same double bed. The oddness of this arrangement was just part of the comedy and I doubt that it occurred to many in their audience that they were homosexualists.

    Charlie Chaplin shares a bed with a male friend in City Lights.

  141. @Old Prude
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Jeezus, you people are really something. Moby Dick is a great, fantastic noir novel. Absolutely a gem. All you boys have to say is "Look, it has the work "dick" in the title. It must be gay...tee hee."

    I recommend, if one was to purchase the book, get the version with the Rockwell Kent etchings. Uh, oh, now I get to hear the Men of Unz go on about Rockwell Kent being a gay commie.

    Replies: @vinteuil, @Achmed E. Newman

    As a Philistine of Unz, O.P., I still think you should know from all my commenting here that I am facetious on here a lot. It’s true that I didn’t even read the Cliff Notes, but that’s a 16 y/o boy for you. I will tell you in all honesty that as naive as I was at that age, that time, and that place, I would not have known about too much gay stuff, even if I had read the book. We all read Billy Budd (as in, I didn’t opt out), and I don’t remember anything about that. Teachers at that school did not mention anything about gayness, though I’m sure we used the word homo often an insult.

    Re: The Thing. I meant that movie as that was the top of the list. I should have capitalized it, of course. I’ve got no beef with Rockwell Kent, as I’ve never heard of him.

    I’m sure Moby Dick is a book I would enjoy now, but I have a list that keeps growing before I get to any 2″ thick volume, many of them recommended by commenters here and on my blog. Right now, Age of Entitlement is what I’m carrying around.

  142. And if “The Thing” is gay I give up. They’re in a friggin’ research camp in Antarctica, ffs! We didn’t used to send women on these things (do they now? imagine what problems they’re having if they do). Great movie.

    No, Dennis, dumbass, you see, the men are invaded by the alien, become the alien…
    It’s all a metaphor for gay grooming.

    • Replies: @Peter D. Bredon
    @Dennis Dale

    Well, now that YOU mention it.... there's a film studies dissertation for you right there.

    But of course that would be anti-gay, I suppose. Come to think of it, perhaps The Thing isn't about gays pro or con but... Jews? Chased out of one country's camp, disguised as a friendly dog to get admitted to the American camp, begins shapeshifting....

    , @silviosilver
    @Dennis Dale


    We didn’t used to send women on these things (do they now? imagine what problems they’re having if they do). Great movie.
     
    The 2011 remake had a couple of female characters. It wasn't as good as the original (which I love), but still a decent movie that I've watched a few times.
  143. @SFG
    @Achmed E. Newman

    LOL. Thing is, back then you had nothing else to do for hours in the winter and long books were the way you got your money's worth. Not to mention all the endless descriptions that were probably a lot of fun when movies didn't exist (this is an insight I have never heard before Steve, TBH).

    "All golden and lovely it blazed in the sunset, with walls, temples, colonnades, and arched bridges of veined marble, silver-basined fountains of prismatic spray in broad squares and perfumed gardens, and wide streets marching between delicate trees and blossom-laden urns and ivory statues in gleaming rows; while on steep northward slopes climbed tiers of red roofs and old peaked gables harbouring little lanes of grassy cobbles. It was a fever of the gods; a fanfare of supernal trumpets and a clash of immortal cymbals..."

    Come on, Howie, get to the tentacles.

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon, @RichardTaylor, @Peter D. Bredon, @Jus' Sayin'..., @Achmed E. Newman, @syonredux

    In the age you mention, way before the www, it was always science fiction and non fiction (science, usually) that I would spend my time with, when it was up to me. I’ve read some great classic Sci-Fi.

  144. @vinteuil
    @Old Prude


    Jeezus, you people are really something.
     
    Well, yeah, the occasional philistinism of the dissident right sometimes gets me down.

    And yet - they're on to something, aren't they? I mean, what's up with the crazy over-representation of gay people in American literature (Dickinson, Melville, Whitman, Cather &c), and music (MacDowell, Copland, Barber &c) - to say nothing of the visual arts?

    Melville's Billy Budd is so gay that it just couldn't be any gayer - a fact not lost on England's last great composer, Sir Benjamin Britten:

    https://youtu.be/jMQ6UjiIPtk

    Replies: @James O'Meara

    Back in the 60s someone named Geismar wrote “Henry James and the Jacobites” trying to head off the growing cult of Henry James as a “genius.” Apparently James was largely forgotten, and his later novels mocked as elephantine, but after WWII some Phoenician academics decided to make him a “titan of American literature.”

    Someone once called Edith Wharton “a more masculine Henry James.” Geismar much preferred more manly writers like Hemingway or Jack London. On the other hand, he was a Commie, and wanted to promote “proletarian” literature, so there’s that too.

    Melville was also forgotten until the turn of the last century; clearly certain groups can take control of academic circles and promote their own agendas.

  145. @BB753
    @SFG

    Nowadays, young men seem accutely aware that older gay men might be hitting on them at any time, as it's homophobic not to be subjected to their courting.
    I don't look the part, but young straight men often shy away from me or display unease when I try to befriend them or when I am just being polite and making small conversation with them. Gays ruin everything. Male company, male friendship, male everything.

    Replies: @James O'Meara, @Marty, @Alexandros

    My college friends and I found ourselves in a hotel elevator with Paul Lynde in Dallas in 1978. He was appearing at a VFW convention. Either those war heroes didn’t know Lynde was gay, or they didn’t care. By the way, he was built like a linebacker. Oops, didn’t mean it that way.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Marty


    By the way, he was built like a linebacker. Oops, didn’t mean it that way.
     
    Wally Cox, too. Hollywood Squares made everybody look small.


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wally_Cox#Personal_life


    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/14/5c/f5/145cf5de1928e4404df005f777695352.jpg
  146. @Dennis Dale
    And if "The Thing" is gay I give up. They're in a friggin' research camp in Antarctica, ffs! We didn't used to send women on these things (do they now? imagine what problems they're having if they do). Great movie.

    No, Dennis, dumbass, you see, the men are invaded by the alien, become the alien...
    It's all a metaphor for gay grooming.

    Replies: @Peter D. Bredon, @silviosilver

    Well, now that YOU mention it…. there’s a film studies dissertation for you right there.

    But of course that would be anti-gay, I suppose. Come to think of it, perhaps The Thing isn’t about gays pro or con but… Jews? Chased out of one country’s camp, disguised as a friendly dog to get admitted to the American camp, begins shapeshifting….

  147. @Dumbo
    Bechdel is/was a lesbian, so her idea of a good movie is probably filled with women talking about their lesbian relationships. I don't really get why that stupid "test" even got famous.

    Films with men only or mostly are usually adventure movies, so they are fun. Films with women only are boring (even romantic comedies need a male part).

    Melville's "Bartebly the Scrivener" is pretty good. "Moby Dick" is too long.

    Melville was a sailor for a while (worked on a merchant ship), so I guess he saw a lot of homosexual stuff going on. Ships are like prisons in a way, many men living without women around, some try to find alternatives.

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon

    “many men living without women around, some try to find alternatives”

    A pox on thee for a scurvy knave, can’t ye wait til we make Liverpool?

    I spent the night with Angeline too drunk to roll in bed
    Me watch was new and me money too, in the morning with them she fled
    And as I walked the streets about, the whores they all did roar
    There goes Jack Spratt, the poor sailor lad, he must go to sea once more

    Once more, boys, once more, go to sea once more
    There goes Jack Spratt , the poor sailor lad, he must go to sea once more

    (If they all looked like Bechdel, I’d be happy with no women in films. What would be the point?)

    Dennis Dale – they do send women to Antarctica these days. “A World Of Men” by Wally Herbert is a great memoir of when they didn’t, and had base leaders who could bend traffic signs or carry a full grown husky under each arm.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wally_Herbert

    “During the course of his polar career, which spanned more than 50 years, he spent 15 years in the wilderness regions of the polar world. He travelled with dog teams and open boats well over 23,000 miles – more than half of that distance through unexplored areas”

    • Replies: @Ray P
    @YetAnotherAnon


    If they all looked like Bechdel, I’d be happy with no women in films.
     
    If they all looked like Bechdel, you wouldn't notice.
  148. A great guy movie is “The Naked Prey” starring Cornell Wilde. Find it, watch it.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Buffalo Joe


    A great guy movie is “The Naked Prey” starring Cornell Wilde. Find it, watch it.
     
    The preteen Coen brothers did a Super 8 version in their Minnesota backyard. Brrr!
    , @additionalMike
    @Buffalo Joe

    It is a very fine movie and very politically incorrect, even for its day.
    It does fail the Bechdel test, though. The tribal women are clearly talking about the men, while they are torturing them to death.

  149. @donut
    "I tried reading Moby Dick for the first time last week, but Melville’s facetious tone didn’t do anything for me." Philistine .

    Das Boot should be on your list as well .

    Replies: @68W58, @I, Libertine

    Das Boot does have the lounge singer from the opening scene, but she is only a bit part. Stalag 17 has the Russian female prisoners, but they are pretty much the same. Battleground has the female nurses in Bastogne and Mister Roberts has the nurses and that one native female. All war movies, but all great flicks. Doctor Zhivago probably fails the Becbtel test. Because while it has plenty of female characters I don’t remember two of them having a conversation, much less one not about a man.

  150. Certainly Billy Budd was about frustrated homosexual desire on Claggart’s part for the naif Budd. No doubt about that. That doesn’t mean that Melville was a sodomite himself or that “Moby Dick” had anything to do with that.

    The contemporary commentary on the Royal Navy around the end of the 18th century (the setting for “Billy Budd”) was that its traditions consisted of “rum, sodomy and the lash”. Think of it this way. The Royal Navy was a month’s long version of John Podesta Night at Comet Pizza.

  151. @Achmed E. Newman
    I had no idea the thing was gay.

    I tried reading Moby Dick for the first time last week, ...
     
    I tried reading the Cliff Notes for Moby Dick for the first time during my junior year in high school. TLDR.

    Replies: @SFG, @El Dato, @Old Prude, @Mikeja, @MEH 0910, @syonredux

    I think I get it now. The list is a countdown. Therefore, the top two that Steve refers to are on the bottom of the list. I think Steve is saying that Billy Budd and Lawrence of Arabia are fairly gay.

    I kept thinking it didn’t make any sense for Steve to call The Thing gay.

    • Agree: Aeronerauk
  152. For what it’s worth, men sleeping in close proximity or even in the same bed was quite common before the 20th century, and in some places still is.

    Mainly because women were usually only living with family members and beds were scarce. Places were cold (in many areas) and fuel was expensive. So it was a matter of practicality. No one thinks twice about two women sleeping in the same bed either.

    From personal experience long ago, men sharing a bed platonic-ly is more of a European thing or at least non American. Especially when traveling and beds are scarce.

    Also in traveling rough or in military situations. People were also much smaller, not as tall and thinner usually. You did it for practical reason, not by choice (snoring, farts, etc. must be endured.)

    Like Leftists do, people here shouldn’t judge the past by today’s cultural mores. Fiction as literature is also fairly recent, only a few hundred years old, and even that was scarce. Sure a few ancient texts, mainly mythology or satire, but “fiction” about average people is pretty new. So what was written reflected the times.

    Lincoln was known to share a bed with males when lawyering out of town or in DC earlier. Few think he was gay.

    Women can add to movies btw. But as actresses are mainly carriers of emotion, not thought or action. It is harder to sustain plot lines just involving emotional statements. Yes, they can initiate or motivate action and often do, but for dramatic action (movement, fights, conflict, anger, travel woes, etc.) it is easier for males to carry the plots.

    Despite the feminist hype, women are protected and coddled unless specifically used as “victims” in plots. Nancy Pelosi is a harridan and witch, but who would make a film with her as the lead character? Nancy and Hillary in a cage match, perhaps…

    • Agree: Jonathan Mason
  153. OT

    Another “great artist” lost to COVID-19….

    https://www.tmz.com/2021/01/17/phil-spector-dead-dies-81/

    …about 18 years too late.

  154. Anon[761] • Disclaimer says:

    Horror fiction is an interesting case.

    There are no female characters in H.P. Lovecraft’s Cthulu Mythos fiction. Perhaps that is one of the reasons why there was not been a major movie adaptation of At The Mountain of Madness.

    There have been female characters in horror fiction before Lovecraft, such as in Edgar Allan Poe’s, and certainly in horror fiction after Lovecraft.

    I heard a theory, I think from a contributor to Pajamas Media, that a good horror movie has a hot actress. Examples of this theory:

    The Birds
    Psycho
    Don’t Look Now
    Halloween

    • Replies: @obwandiyag
    @Anon

    Horror is horrible. Listen to the words. Horror is horrible. People who watch it have psychological problems.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @syonredux

    , @James O'Meara
    @Anon

    "There are no female characters in H.P. Lovecraft’s Cthulu Mythos fiction. Perhaps that is one of the reasons why there was not been a major movie adaptation of At The Mountain of Madness."

    Well, pretty true but there's Lavinia Whately in "The Dunwich Horror." The recent film of the non-Cthulhu story "The Colour Out of Space" has a mother and daughter and is pretty good.

    Replies: @syonredux

    , @Ray P
    @Anon

    Does The Exorcist feature a 'hot actress'?

    Replies: @anon

  155. @Bardon Kaldian
    This is Alison Bechdel. And she is a woman - real, genetic woman.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Alison_Bechdel_at_the_Boston_Book_Festival.jpg/1280px-Alison_Bechdel_at_the_Boston_Book_Festival.jpg

    Wow...... I mean: Wow

    Replies: @James O'Meara, @Peter D. Bredon, @Russ, @Mr. Anon, @Aardvark, @Mike Tre, @donut, @Anon, @MBlanc46, @Yancey Ward

    Looks like the guy who got the tattoo on his face in The Hanover movies.

  156. @Buffalo Joe
    @Mike Tre

    Mike, in SR no one notices the gapping hole in the cell wall covered by a painting, even though the cell was vacant while he was in the "hole."

    Replies: @Mike Tre

    LOL – but yes, the (re)birth and baptism metaphors are fairly conspicuous.

  157. @Anon7
    Don't forget Khartoum, a really well-done 1966 movie based on 19th century events in Britain and Sudan.

    If I recall correctly, not only are there no parts of any kind, no matter how minor, for women. I think that a woman's voice is only heard once.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6-fSbcFGcs

    Replies: @TorontoTraveller

    Did Zulu have women? Maybe that one should be on the list.

    • Replies: @additionalMike
    @TorontoTraveller

    Preacher's daughter.

    , @anon
    @TorontoTraveller

    Did Zulu have women?

    Yes, but she was a minister's daughter sent off early in the film.

    Complaint: in Zulu the minister is a drunken pacifist crying out "You're all going to die!" to the men. In the real world of Rourke's Drift, chaplain George Smith put on a vest or a sack. He then filled the pockets with rifle ammunition which he distributed up and down the line, along with exhortations to the men.

    "The Washing of the Spears" is an excellent history that probably is worth keeping, since there is too much crimethink in it.

    , @Ancient Briton
    @TorontoTraveller

    Miss de Witt, plus a host of non-speaking dusky maidens.

  158. @Pop Warner
    I could name dozens of anime that pass the Bechdel Test with flying covers, and some of them are really good. However, since the characters are usually cute girls of high school age the Western Wokeists have a massive hatred towards anime. Not only do they despise characters drawn well and with a sense of beauty, they project their own tendencies by accusing the show and its viewers of promoting pedophilia. That doesn't seem to be a consideration of theirs when actual children are sexualized like in Cuties, or poorly drawn children are sexualized like in Big Mouth. And it's not just fanservice like in anime, it's explicitly sexual and the sexuality is central to the plot. Not to mention anime characters are almost always Asian or White, the most vexing fact of all to Wokeists

    Replies: @HTT fan

    While the West abandons beauty, slice of life animes like K-On! carry the fire

    • LOL: Pop Warner
    • Replies: @vhrm
    @HTT fan


    While the West abandons beauty, slice of life animes like K-On! carry the fire
     
    heh. i fear that it's just fantasy to cover the fact that they're even further down the path of atomization and alienation.

    ( hikikomori, record low marriage and fertility rates, etc...)

    no complaints about K-on though. It passes the Bechdel test. (are there even any guys in it at all?)

    Replies: @Pop Warner

  159. @Achmed E. Newman
    I had no idea the thing was gay.

    I tried reading Moby Dick for the first time last week, ...
     
    I tried reading the Cliff Notes for Moby Dick for the first time during my junior year in high school. TLDR.

    Replies: @SFG, @El Dato, @Old Prude, @Mikeja, @MEH 0910, @syonredux

    I tried reading Moby Dick for the first time last week, but Melville’s facetious tone didn’t do anything for me.

    If memory serves, Steve, you’re not a Milton fan, which means that Melville will simply not be your cup of tea. That’s unfortunate. Melville, at his best, is one of the greatest Anglophone authors:

    All visible objects, man, are but as pasteboard masks. But in each event — in the living act, the undoubted deed — there, some unknown but still reasoning thing puts forth the mouldings of its features from behind the unreasoning mask. If man will strike, strike through the mask! How can the prisoner reach outside except by thrusting through the wall? To me, the white whale is that wall, shoved near to me. Sometimes I think there’s naught beyond. But ’tis enough. He tasks me; he heaps me; I see in him outrageous strength, with an inscrutable malice sinewing it. That inscrutable thing is chiefly what I hate; and be the white whale agent, or be the white whale principal, I will wreak that hate upon him. Talk not to me of blasphemy, man; I’d strike the sun if it insulted me. For could the sun do that, then could I do the other; since there is ever a sort of fair play herein, jealousy presiding over all creations. But not my master, man, is even that fair play. Who’s over me? Truth hath no confines.

    • Replies: @Bubba
    @syonredux

    Forgive me if this has already been posted in reply to disliking Milton...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeZqW6eqK2M

  160. @Buffalo Joe
    A great guy movie is "The Naked Prey" starring Cornell Wilde. Find it, watch it.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @additionalMike

    A great guy movie is “The Naked Prey” starring Cornell Wilde. Find it, watch it.

    The preteen Coen brothers did a Super 8 version in their Minnesota backyard. Brrr!

  161. @prosa123
    @Buffalo Joe

    The “Godfather” is great and could have been made without a female role

    Not true. Looking just at the original, there were three subplots involving women that were absolutely essential to the storyline.

    1. Carlo's savage beating of Connie was the one and only thing that could have drawn Sonny out of his refuge in the family compound into the toll booth ambush.
    2. Apollonia's car bomb murder in Sicily set Michael on an irreversible course to become part of the crime family, dashing his hopes of returning to a normal life after the furor over the shootings of Sollozzo and McCluskey died down.
    3. Kay's gradual understanding of Michael's true nature, and her eventual acceptance of it, also was vital to his transformation into his new role as Family boss.

    In contrast, the movie did not use the novel's ludicrous subplot involving Sonny and Lucy Mancini. It wouldn't have added anything to the storyline, would have prolonged an already long movie, and would have been difficult to handle in a non-pornographic manner.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @James O'Meara, @additionalMike, @Buffalo Joe

    True about the Lucy Mancini subplot. Try to imagine how a female audience in 1972 would have reacted to the surgical tightening of Lucy’s, err… hoo-hah (or, for that matter, how they would react to it today). Not good.
    Coppola’s genius was to preserve only the good parts of an overall, not-very-good book.

  162. “Inclusion” should kill Hollywood at last.
    They already insulted their audience.
    Now they will die in Asia where “diversity” leads to no play in theaters.

    Hollyweird is now TOO GHEY to play.
    They’ve Jumped the Shark.
    They no longer make myths.

    They are trying to replace rugged men with sissies and wimmen.
    Heroes they claim can be anybody.
    Their lagging sales and rotten tomatoes vehemently disagrees.

    When you fight reality, do not expect to ever win…

  163. @Buffalo Joe
    A great guy movie is "The Naked Prey" starring Cornell Wilde. Find it, watch it.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @additionalMike

    It is a very fine movie and very politically incorrect, even for its day.
    It does fail the Bechdel test, though. The tribal women are clearly talking about the men, while they are torturing them to death.

  164. @TorontoTraveller
    @Anon7

    Did Zulu have women? Maybe that one should be on the list.

    Replies: @additionalMike, @anon, @Ancient Briton

    Preacher’s daughter.

  165. @HTT fan
    @Pop Warner

    While the West abandons beauty, slice of life animes like K-On! carry the fire

    Replies: @vhrm

    While the West abandons beauty, slice of life animes like K-On! carry the fire

    heh. i fear that it’s just fantasy to cover the fact that they’re even further down the path of atomization and alienation.

    ( hikikomori, record low marriage and fertility rates, etc…)

    no complaints about K-on though. It passes the Bechdel test. (are there even any guys in it at all?)

    • Replies: @Pop Warner
    @vhrm


    no complaints about K-on though. It passes the Bechdel test. (are there even any guys in it at all?)
     
    When I watched it I actually tried to count how many men and the number was very low. Since it was an all-girls school and they only interacted with one teacher you didn't see any at the most regular setting. The only recurring male character I can think of is the clerk at the music store. And as for conversations about men or relationships, there are almost none. The only time relationship talk crops up in these types of anime is when the aging teacher gets ribbed for still being single
  166. @Bardon Kaldian
    This is Alison Bechdel. And she is a woman - real, genetic woman.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Alison_Bechdel_at_the_Boston_Book_Festival.jpg/1280px-Alison_Bechdel_at_the_Boston_Book_Festival.jpg

    Wow...... I mean: Wow

    Replies: @James O'Meara, @Peter D. Bredon, @Russ, @Mr. Anon, @Aardvark, @Mike Tre, @donut, @Anon, @MBlanc46, @Yancey Ward

    EEK!

  167. An Evelyn Waugh fan who has probably read Brideshead Revisited several times touches Moby Dick for the first time in his 60s and thinks it’s too gay?

    • Agree: syonredux
    • LOL: Pat Hannagan
    • Replies: @James O'Meara
    @Anon

    Well, maybe sex between nice young English men is OK, but when you bring in a tattooed native, Steve draws the line!

  168. Steve was your decision to read Moby Dick motivated by the sea shanty craze on tiktok?
    If so, you should know that Black womYn invented sea shanties.

  169. @Marty
    @BB753

    My college friends and I found ourselves in a hotel elevator with Paul Lynde in Dallas in 1978. He was appearing at a VFW convention. Either those war heroes didn’t know Lynde was gay, or they didn’t care. By the way, he was built like a linebacker. Oops, didn’t mean it that way.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    By the way, he was built like a linebacker. Oops, didn’t mean it that way.

    Wally Cox, too. Hollywood Squares made everybody look small.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wally_Cox#Personal_life

  170. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    "I’d probably vote for Lawrence of Arabia as the greatest movie of all time."

    Oh, come on Steve. At least half dozen that were way better. Roshomon. Wild Strawberries. The Seventh Seal. The Godfather. Citizen Kane. The Searchers. Even Taxi Driver. Birth of a Nation is another one.

    "The top two are fairly gay."

    So is Lawrence, btw. Homoerotically to the max.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @Reg Cæsar, @Ancient Briton

    As Noel Cowerd wrly noted, if Peter O’Toole were any prettier they could have called it Florence of Arabia.
    Zulu had many non-speaking dusky maidens and one prototype nice white lady with too much to say.

  171. “The Thing” is all the more remarkable for being a horror movie with no women. The endangerment of women is a big, some would say essential part of horror movies. Viewers are more likely to feel protective of.a female victim or protagonist than a male one.

    • Replies: @al gore rhythms
    @Hapalong Cassidy

    By a strange coincidence I not only watched The Thing last week, but also pondered over the face that it was an all-male film.

    If there had been women in the film then a large chunk of the film would be about her being protected or in some way argued over. Having an all male cast means you can concentrate purely on the big issues inherent in that situation--the paranoia, and the threat to all life on earth. Likewise, women see conflict much more in personal terms and an honest female character would have to reflect that in the film. For men the conflict would be much more about trying to balance their various interests and responsibilities--to themselves, to the planet, etc, and that is just much more interesting in a film.

    I think the same principal applies to many of the films on the list.

    , @silviosilver
    @Hapalong Cassidy

    Do people actually regard The Thing as a horror movie? That never even occurred to me. I've always thought of it as a pure sci-fi flick, much like Alien.

    Replies: @MEH 0910

  172. anon[759] • Disclaimer says:
    @TorontoTraveller
    @Anon7

    Did Zulu have women? Maybe that one should be on the list.

    Replies: @additionalMike, @anon, @Ancient Briton

    Did Zulu have women?

    Yes, but she was a minister’s daughter sent off early in the film.

    Complaint: in Zulu the minister is a drunken pacifist crying out “You’re all going to die!” to the men. In the real world of Rourke’s Drift, chaplain George Smith put on a vest or a sack. He then filled the pockets with rifle ammunition which he distributed up and down the line, along with exhortations to the men.

    “The Washing of the Spears” is an excellent history that probably is worth keeping, since there is too much crimethink in it.

  173. @James O'Meara
    @prosa123

    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man." -- Don Vito

    Replies: @Hapalong Cassidy

    “I spent my whole life trying not to be careless. Women and children can afford to be careless, but not men.” – Don Vito

  174. @El Dato

    Normally it’s in period war movies or other isolated situations where historically only men would appear, but some examples are a little more egregious.
     
    The word "egregious" is egregiously misused in the modern times of trueblue mindrot.

    Master And Commander: The Far Side Of The World
     
    Actually, there was a lady of the shore looking for business in one scene.

    Although females on sailing ships make for interesting stories

    https://i.postimg.cc/SKsDYSZM/La-Fille-sous-la-dunette-p36.png

    Replies: @donut, @Allen, @Dissident

    The motif of a woman who disguises herself as a sailor/soldier is surprisingly common in folk music. The most well-known example is Jack-a-roe (frequently covered by the Grateful Dead and occasionally by Bob Dylan). Other examples would include Martinmas Time (wonderfully performed by Andy Irvine and Paul Brady) and the Handsome Cabin Boy (good versions by Jerry Garcia and Dave Grisman as well as Kate Bush).

    Overall, there doesn’t seem to be any particular social/political message behind the woman in disguise motif, merely a method for dramatic storytelling or humor.
    (the girl in Jack-a-roe disguises herself to go search for her fiancé who never returned home from war; the girl in Martinmas Time disguises herself to protect her chastity from harassing soldiers; meanwhile the girl in the handsome cabin boy disguise herself to get on a ship but is discovered by the crew after the captain gets her pregnant).

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Allen

    Did Lady Mountbatten go to sea disguised as a common sailor, or is that just a myth?

  175. @Bardon Kaldian
    This is Alison Bechdel. And she is a woman - real, genetic woman.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Alison_Bechdel_at_the_Boston_Book_Festival.jpg/1280px-Alison_Bechdel_at_the_Boston_Book_Festival.jpg

    Wow...... I mean: Wow

    Replies: @James O'Meara, @Peter D. Bredon, @Russ, @Mr. Anon, @Aardvark, @Mike Tre, @donut, @Anon, @MBlanc46, @Yancey Ward

    I’ve read Fun Home: A Family Tragicomic by Bechdel. Her family was a bunch of sick freaks. No wonder she turned out to be just as freakish.

  176. @SFG
    @Achmed E. Newman

    LOL. Thing is, back then you had nothing else to do for hours in the winter and long books were the way you got your money's worth. Not to mention all the endless descriptions that were probably a lot of fun when movies didn't exist (this is an insight I have never heard before Steve, TBH).

    "All golden and lovely it blazed in the sunset, with walls, temples, colonnades, and arched bridges of veined marble, silver-basined fountains of prismatic spray in broad squares and perfumed gardens, and wide streets marching between delicate trees and blossom-laden urns and ivory statues in gleaming rows; while on steep northward slopes climbed tiers of red roofs and old peaked gables harbouring little lanes of grassy cobbles. It was a fever of the gods; a fanfare of supernal trumpets and a clash of immortal cymbals..."

    Come on, Howie, get to the tentacles.

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon, @RichardTaylor, @Peter D. Bredon, @Jus' Sayin'..., @Achmed E. Newman, @syonredux

    Ah, Lovecraft in Dunsanian mode, gorgeous stuff. Of course, for sheer verbal pyrotechnics, Clark Ashton Smith is hard to beat:

    On Zothique, the last continent on Earth, the sun no longer shone with the whiteness of its prime, but was dim and tarnished as if with a vapor of blood. New stars without number had declared themselves in the heavens, and the shadows of the infinite had fallen closer. And out of the shadows, the older gods had returned to man: the gods forgotten since Hyperborea, since Mu and Poseidonis, bearing other names but the same attributes. And the elder demons had also returned, battening on the fumes of evil sacrifice, and fostering again the primordial sorceries.

    • Replies: @Peter D. Bredon
    @syonredux

    Critics like Joshi think HPL was right to abandon his "Dunsany" tales and pioneer science/horror. Not sure I agree, really. Perhaps an example of critics praising "new" and "pioneering" stuff rather than good, satisfying stuff.

    , @SFG
    @syonredux

    Clark Ashton Smith is criminally underappreciated IMHO. He needs his own RPG. I'm serious.

    Replies: @syonredux

  177. My Dinner with Andre is not a good movie. It is a bunch of insanely annoying hippie libtard blather. They might as well have been discussing the healing power of crystals for all the intellectual content in it.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Anon

    True, but My Dinner With Andre is about the best movie imaginable that consists solely of nothing but two hours of inanely annoying hippie libtard blather.

    Replies: @James O'Meara, @Lot

    , @black sea
    @Anon

    Another way of looking at it is My Dinner with Andre is a gentle satire of hippy libtard blather.

  178. “Upon waking the next morning, I found Queequeg’s arm thrown over me in the most loving and affectionate manner. You had almost thought I had been his wife.

    Okaaaay …”

    Shouldn’t this passage have inspired some riff on the Yankee-Kanaka halfbreeds of Nantucket, and the similar miscegenation in Lovecraft’s “Shadow Over Innsmouth,” and the 1/16th Native Hawaiian heirs in “The Descendants”?

  179. @James O'Meara
    @Harry Baldwin

    Honest question: the "fourth" part of the trilogy, Once Upon a Time in America, of course has Claudia Cardinale. Does she detract from the film? She seems essential to the ending, depicting the domestication of the "wild" West. (Women may have "ruined" the Wild West but would they ruin movies about the ruin of the Wild West?)

    Replies: @R.G. Camara, @syonredux

    Considering she was a prostitute domesticated by the red-headed dude in search of a fitting replacement for his dead wife/mother to his kids, there’s much in there about the domestication of the West affecting men and women, as well as allowing for fresh starts.

    Prostitution in the old West flourished due to a lot of lonely guys and only a few available women, but once men pacified it to a reasonable extent enough women showed up such that brothels were no longer the huge business they had been, and then the new women got the old whorehouses shut down (as they were competition for the new women and also didn’t gibe with the new women’s religious sensibilities).

    • Replies: @black sea
    @R.G. Camara

    I read once about gangs of prim, 19th Century New England schoolmarms who would take the trains out West every summer to work the mining camps and cow towns. Their purses filled, so to speak, they would return to their blackboards in the fall.

    I thought it was a wonderful anecdote, though I don't know if it is entirely true.

  180. @SunBakedSuburb
    @Bill B.

    "How about Apocalypse [N]ow?"

    Francis Ford Coppola's 1979 masterpiece is not gay and I will strip down to my leather thong and wrestle anyone who says it is.

    Replies: @Joe Stalin

    Francis is a real artist. I don’t believe he’s made up his mind about the Vietnam War, so he didn’t let Kurtz have any answers. I think he wanted Apocalypse Now to be a work in progress, and every year he’d re-release it.

    Is Apocalypse Now anti-Vietnam War? Nearly all the people involved in making it. from Francis on down, were against the war and held what were considered politically correct views at the time. Except for me: I wasn’t for the war. but I was for the American soldier and I wanted the film to reflect that. I wanted the grunts to be the heroes, to make a movie that they would look at and say. “This is ours.”

    I believe that one of the only noble attributes of our society is its concept of the American Citizen soldier. I’m a militarist and an anarchist. But don’t expect that to make sense. As David Bowie once said when accused of contradicting himself. “Well – I’m a rock star.” What do you expect? I’m a movie director.

    https://scrapsfromtheloft.com/2017/12/16/apocalypse-now-a-soldiers-tale-by-john-milius/

  181. An aside. I’m quasi convinced the only reason Mademoiselle Bechtel hasn’t jumped on the F to M transexual bandwagon like every other “d*ke” (her sobriquet) in her generation and after, is because that feminist fingerwagging Bechtel Test is on her permanent record. Might be awkward to explain switching sides, so to speak, at this late date.

  182. @etype
    Moby Dick is one the greatest works of art of the last 300 years. Melville is America's Shakespeare, America's Homer. A works such as this, as with Shakespeare, requires a reader of intelligence and sensitivity. It is not a work a intelligent reader asks "is this too gay?", but "is this real?" Moby Dick is beyond real, it is a work of art without parallel, it is beyond real.
    For an author who often writes about the matter of IQ, 'Sailer' (yes, 'Sailer' doesn't get Moby Dick) has yet to come to terms with his own shortcomings, biases, and at times, complete idiocy. But rating the foremost 18th century work of literature as potentially, possibly... 'gay', suggests the author is fighting with his own 'white whale', and is not up front about the fact.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @James O'Meara

    Moby Dick is one the greatest works of art of the last 300 years.

    Perhaps yes, perhaps no. The anatomy part makes a big chunk of a book hard to read. But, it remains a great atypical “novel”, not for most tastes, especially modern. Just, it would take us too long- how “alive” are Homer, Dante, Cervantes, Goethe, .. now?

    Melville is America’s Shakespeare, America’s Homer.

    Yes. Plus Whitman.

    It is not a work a intelligent reader asks “is this too gay?”, but “is this real?” Moby Dick is beyond real, it is a work of art without parallel, it is beyond real.

    Agreed, but you have to admit there is an aura of fagdom this romance radiates. Conrad’s sea novels don’t have that fairy irradiation, which can be detected also in some other Melville’s works. As I said-I think Melville was not a homosexual, but he did possess a homo trait that erupted now & then in his fictions.

    For an author who often writes about the matter of IQ, ‘Sailer’ (yes, ‘Sailer’ doesn’t get Moby Dick) has yet to come to terms with his own shortcomings, biases, and at times, complete idiocy.

    Offensive & meaningless. Moby Dick is just not his cup of tea.

    But rating the foremost 18th century work of literature as potentially, possibly… ‘gay’, suggests the author is fighting with his own ‘white whale’, and is not up front about the fact.

    18th C?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Bardon Kaldian

    I don't really like 19th Century American literature all that much. The Brits were better at it.

    Replies: @syonredux, @Anon, @syonredux

  183. @Cool Daddy Jimbo
    I stopped at the same point of Moby Dick. Five pages of "do I get in bed with spear guy or not" was too much for me. And I'm probably a simpleton, but I absolutely hate the 18th century style of sentences broken only by commas, that never end, that go on and on, forever, it seems. If any of you guys invents a time machine I need to borrow it for a few minutes. I'm going back in time to meet Edward Gibbon. I'm going to grab him by the scruff of the neck and slap him back and forth while saying, "Short. Choppy. Sentences. Motherfucker."

    Replies: @Peter D. Bredon, @Polynikes, @Etruscan Film Star

    There’s a reason Hemmingway took the literary world by storm.

  184. @Anon
    My Dinner with Andre is not a good movie. It is a bunch of insanely annoying hippie libtard blather. They might as well have been discussing the healing power of crystals for all the intellectual content in it.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @black sea

    True, but My Dinner With Andre is about the best movie imaginable that consists solely of nothing but two hours of inanely annoying hippie libtard blather.

    • Replies: @James O'Meara
    @Steve Sailer

    Poster:

    Reviewer Steve Sailer raves:

    "I don't always watch two hours of inanely annoying hippie libtard blather, but when I do..."

    , @Lot
    @Steve Sailer

    https://i.imgur.com/k7KjeCL.png

  185. @Allen
    @El Dato

    The motif of a woman who disguises herself as a sailor/soldier is surprisingly common in folk music. The most well-known example is Jack-a-roe (frequently covered by the Grateful Dead and occasionally by Bob Dylan). Other examples would include Martinmas Time (wonderfully performed by Andy Irvine and Paul Brady) and the Handsome Cabin Boy (good versions by Jerry Garcia and Dave Grisman as well as Kate Bush).

    Overall, there doesn't seem to be any particular social/political message behind the woman in disguise motif, merely a method for dramatic storytelling or humor.
    (the girl in Jack-a-roe disguises herself to go search for her fiancé who never returned home from war; the girl in Martinmas Time disguises herself to protect her chastity from harassing soldiers; meanwhile the girl in the handsome cabin boy disguise herself to get on a ship but is discovered by the crew after the captain gets her pregnant).

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Did Lady Mountbatten go to sea disguised as a common sailor, or is that just a myth?

  186. @TorontoTraveller
    @Anon7

    Did Zulu have women? Maybe that one should be on the list.

    Replies: @additionalMike, @anon, @Ancient Briton

    Miss de Witt, plus a host of non-speaking dusky maidens.

  187. @Milo Minderbinder
    One vote for "Emperor of the North Pole" with Ernest Borgnine and Lee Marvin battling it out with hammers and chains atop a moving train. Not sure, but I think there might be a woman with a non-speaking role in the baptism scene.


    https://youtu.be/G86I_tp8Z6g

    Replies: @Peter D. Bredon

    “Emperor of the North Pole” with Ernest Borgnine and Lee Marvin battling it out with hammers and chains atop a moving train.

    I think you may have found the Chuck Norris of manly films.

    (Personally I would have gone with Lee Marvin in Point Blank or Michael Caine in Get Carter)

  188. @El Dato
    OT:

    In case you were misinformed about what kind of batrachians and overt fascists come out of Harvard:

    Students At Yale, Harvard And University Of Missouri Turn Up The Pressure On GOP Senators

    and

    Harvard students & alumni petition university to REVOKE DEGREES of Ted Cruz, other grads who supported Trump’s election claims


    “Harvard values democracy, equality and the rule of law,” the petitioners said. “Does it value them enough to hold its own alumni accountable for the most flagrant attack on these principles in recent history?” The group repeatedly attributed the election-fraud protest to skin color, asking, “Is Harvard University prepared to take a stand for representative democracy and against violent white supremacy?”
     

    The campaign to revoke degrees follows a petition earlier this month – led by Yale and Harvard students and alumni – calling for Cruz and Yale alumnus Josh Hawley (R-Missouri) to be disbarred from practicing law because of their election challenges. Civil rights lawyer Valarie Kaur said she supported the petition, even as Biden calls for unifying the politically polarized country, because there can be “no healing without accountability.”
     
    https://twitter.com/valariekaur/status/1348836299449372675

    Replies: @Known Fact, @PiltdownMan

    OMG it’s The Columns, one for every virgin to graduate Mizzou! This must be the first time my beloved alma mater has ever been mentioned in the same sentence with Yale and Harvard

  189. Speaking of the high seas, adventure and sodomy, there’s a fantastic 10 part series on Prime right now called The Terror. Using the real life story of Sir John Franklin’s 1845 lost expedition to find a way through the Northwest Passage as inspiration, it gets Rotten Tomatoes aggregates of Critics 93% and Audience 87%. Obviously people love a realistic re-telling of the adventures of real men toiling against nature for the greater glory of God and mankind (with a sci-fi twist).

    With only 3 episodes to go I rate it easily in my top 10 TV series of all time. It brings to life what it must have been like in the fleets of the British Empire, then at its apogee. No matter what woke point one judges history any honest person must admire the British and their achievements on the sea and throughout the Commonwealth, such admirable people like Cook and the three here, Franklin, Crozier and Fitzjames.

    There were only 4 dissenting critics with one of them actually grading the series using all the woke metrics, including the Bechdel Test, thus proving your thesis.

    https://www.mediaversityreviews.com/tv-reviews/2019/6/22/the-terror

    Gender: 2.75/5
    Does it pass the Bechdel Test? NOPE, not once across all 10 episodes

    On account of this failure, the females all come across as realistic, interesting, admirable and develop the story on a human relatable level. The Esquimaux lady playing a pivotal role.

    It’s not just rum, sodomy and the lash but it is that and more.

    • Replies: @Pat Hannagan
    @Pat Hannagan

    My God how good is this movie?

    This is-was the most inspiring life changing thing I've ever seen.

    I won't post too much as I don't want to ruin anything for the experience save the final two episodes take you to another clime.

    From In the Court of the Crimson King to this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zR6FcM_wHg4

    That's all I will say. I expect and hope this series will one day be the uplifting subject of a Tuesday morning Taki Mag piece.

    "Tell those who come after us not to stay. The ships are gone. There is no way through, no passage. Tell them we are gone.. dead.. and gone."

  190. @James O'Meara
    @Harry Baldwin

    Honest question: the "fourth" part of the trilogy, Once Upon a Time in America, of course has Claudia Cardinale. Does she detract from the film? She seems essential to the ending, depicting the domestication of the "wild" West. (Women may have "ruined" the Wild West but would they ruin movies about the ruin of the Wild West?)

    Replies: @R.G. Camara, @syonredux

    (Women may have “ruined” the Wild West but would they ruin movies about the ruin of the Wild West?)

    Howard Hawks and John Ford had great female characters in their Westerns.

  191. @Steve Sailer
    @Anon

    True, but My Dinner With Andre is about the best movie imaginable that consists solely of nothing but two hours of inanely annoying hippie libtard blather.

    Replies: @James O'Meara, @Lot

    Poster:

    Reviewer Steve Sailer raves:

    “I don’t always watch two hours of inanely annoying hippie libtard blather, but when I do…”

  192. “Orence” could’ve been the champ, but for the gay thing.

    A legend got around, according to which Lawrence was a homosexual. This had no basis in fact—nobody knew anything about his sexuality—but was based on his having once taken captive and raped by a Turkish bey.

    Well, the screenwriters ran with it, and they and David Lean had Peter O’Toole play him as a flaming fag early in the picture. Had “Orence” actually been that way, the Arabs would have slaughtered him. (Macho pederasty was one thing, but Arabs could not abide a pansy.) I blame Robert Bolt for it; he was more overbearing than Michael Wilson.

    That leaves Orence tied for eighth on my list of the greatest talkies, with Kwai (#10-1):

    The Third Man
    The Bridge on the River Kwai (tied)
    Lawrence of Arabia (tied)
    It Happened One Night
    Shane
    It’s a Wonderful Life
    The Godfather, Part II (tied)
    The Godfather (tied)
    Citizen Kane
    The Best Years of Our Lives

    At this level, the tiniest flaw can topple a picture from the top of the heap, e.g., if Frank Capra hadn’t been so vain and trashed Dmitri Tiomkin’s score, It’s a Wonderful Life might have been number one.

  193. @El Dato
    OT:

    In case you were misinformed about what kind of batrachians and overt fascists come out of Harvard:

    Students At Yale, Harvard And University Of Missouri Turn Up The Pressure On GOP Senators

    and

    Harvard students & alumni petition university to REVOKE DEGREES of Ted Cruz, other grads who supported Trump’s election claims


    “Harvard values democracy, equality and the rule of law,” the petitioners said. “Does it value them enough to hold its own alumni accountable for the most flagrant attack on these principles in recent history?” The group repeatedly attributed the election-fraud protest to skin color, asking, “Is Harvard University prepared to take a stand for representative democracy and against violent white supremacy?”
     

    The campaign to revoke degrees follows a petition earlier this month – led by Yale and Harvard students and alumni – calling for Cruz and Yale alumnus Josh Hawley (R-Missouri) to be disbarred from practicing law because of their election challenges. Civil rights lawyer Valarie Kaur said she supported the petition, even as Biden calls for unifying the politically polarized country, because there can be “no healing without accountability.”
     
    https://twitter.com/valariekaur/status/1348836299449372675

    Replies: @Known Fact, @PiltdownMan

    Kaur is Sikh last name.

    And her Twitter bio confirms it.

    Civil Rights Lawyer, Mother, Sikh Woman Warrior.

  194. @Lot
    @Reg Cæsar

    Mecca and Medina are charmless because the Saudis have the same extreme anti-idolatry views as ISIS and destroyed nearly all the old religious buildings.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_early_Islamic_heritage_sites_in_Saudi_Arabia

    Replies: @donut

    “Mecca and Medina are charmless because the Saudis have the same extreme anti-idolatry views as ISIS and destroyed nearly all the old religious buildings.”

    You’re right about ISIS and the Saudi religious authorities but there is more to it than that . I was stationed in the Gulf in the 70’s . I got the impression that the Gulf Arabs just don’t value anything old . To them new is good . An example : I bought an old antique carpet in Karachi . When I mentioned it to a Bahraini friend he was puzzled as to why I would buy an old carpet when the souks are full of new ones . That was in the Gulf and they were recklessly tearing down all the old buildings and quarters for new construction . I was lucky to be there in the 70’s when there was still a lot of old stuff still around . In Dubai I had to take a boat to cross the creek there . In Muscat , Abu Dhabi , Dubai , Bahrain and the Persian ports I visited you could still get a sense of what life had been like for centuries . Kuwait at that time was already a totally new city , malls , highways and new housing every where .
    The Countries on the Mediterranean that I spent any time in , Syria and Egypt where very aware of the value of preserving the relics of their past .
    According to some youtube videos I’ve seen recently there seems to be a growing movement to preserve some of what they have left . In Oman the people in some areas are rehabbing some abandoned villages and spending some of their time living in the old family homes . What’s encouraging about this trend it’s not government sponsored but rather a grass roots thing except they don’t have any grass .

  195. @theMann
    1. Funny how when anybody talk about a film being good, they never start with a good script, competent direction, and then good acting. And I offer two reasons why there are far less Female than Male roles in films:
    A) Most Actresses aren't very good.
    B) the Prancing Faggots of Hollywood don't know women at all, do they?

    2. Since a new era of book burning is hard upon us, I will dedicate myself to taking out Moby Dick and The Scarlet Letter. Generations of schoolkids will thank me. Ok, they wont know who to thank, or why, but still......

    Replies: @Inquiring Mind, @Nicholas Stix

    “The story is king” is an old Hollywood adage, but I think you go it one better: Talent is king.

    If you look at the Golden Age of Hollywood talkies (1939-1955), you see staggering talent at every level, and no affirmative action.

    Look at my #1 talkie. Helmed by Willi Wyler, one of the greatest directors of all time. Robert E. Sherwood, one of the handful of greatest screenwriters (with Ben Hecht, Bob Riskin, Francis Ford Coppola and Ingemar Bergman), wrote the script. Greg Toland, the father of deep-focus cinematography (though Wyler asserted that Wyler was), was director of photography. It starred Myrna Loy, Freddie March, and Dana Andrews. Hugo Friedhofer delivered one of the most powerful scores ever.

    You can’t match that today, because the talent isn’t there. And even if they were, the commissars would never permit them to strut their stuff.

  196. The first person Rambo spoke to was a woman. The mother of his buddy from the war he was tracking down.

    • Replies: @Yngvar
    @Anonymous

    True, and the strong, independent black lady now made invisible was pretty important in setting off the movie. Shameful stuff.

  197. Anonymous[141] • Disclaimer says:

    I found Melville hard to get into when required to read him. Twain is better because you can read for adventure/humor along with the literature. One good experience I had was listening to Typhoon while driving once. Great story. And maybe easier to do when listening (more passive). If you’ve ever been to see, the aspects of the weather and the interpersonal dynamics (including the very flawed and stupid but ultimately heroic captain) ring true. Almost reminded me a bit of the movie Locke. Something about stories were men are caught in a predicament.

    Oh…no chicks of course. But that’s not the point.

  198. @prosa123
    @Buffalo Joe

    The “Godfather” is great and could have been made without a female role

    Not true. Looking just at the original, there were three subplots involving women that were absolutely essential to the storyline.

    1. Carlo's savage beating of Connie was the one and only thing that could have drawn Sonny out of his refuge in the family compound into the toll booth ambush.
    2. Apollonia's car bomb murder in Sicily set Michael on an irreversible course to become part of the crime family, dashing his hopes of returning to a normal life after the furor over the shootings of Sollozzo and McCluskey died down.
    3. Kay's gradual understanding of Michael's true nature, and her eventual acceptance of it, also was vital to his transformation into his new role as Family boss.

    In contrast, the movie did not use the novel's ludicrous subplot involving Sonny and Lucy Mancini. It wouldn't have added anything to the storyline, would have prolonged an already long movie, and would have been difficult to handle in a non-pornographic manner.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @James O'Meara, @additionalMike, @Buffalo Joe

    prosa, in the book Michael avenges Appolonia’s murder, not in the movie. So maybe the movie works without Appolonia, who by the way, was gorgeous. Sunny could have been drawn out by harming Fredo perhaps, don’t know, but he was a loose cannon. Kay was a prop to humanize a murderer, and rare is the Don who marries outside of the clan. But your points are good and well written. Stay safe.

    • Replies: @prosa123
    @Buffalo Joe

    Something that came across more clearly in the novel was that Michael was hoping to come back to America after a year or two in Sicilian exile and resume his life on the legitimate side of things. By making a huge payment to his wife and children the Corleone Family got a man already on death row for unrelated crimes to confess to the Solozzo and McCluskey shootings and take the heat off Michael. But Appolonia's murder quashed Michael's plans and forced him into Family business.
    As far as I know the revenge shooting of Calo, who had planted the bomb in Appolonia's car, was omitted from the movie was simply to keep it from being even longer.

  199. @Bardon Kaldian
    @etype


    Moby Dick is one the greatest works of art of the last 300 years.
     
    Perhaps yes, perhaps no. The anatomy part makes a big chunk of a book hard to read. But, it remains a great atypical "novel", not for most tastes, especially modern. Just, it would take us too long- how "alive" are Homer, Dante, Cervantes, Goethe, .. now?

    Melville is America’s Shakespeare, America’s Homer.
     
    Yes. Plus Whitman.

    It is not a work a intelligent reader asks “is this too gay?”, but “is this real?” Moby Dick is beyond real, it is a work of art without parallel, it is beyond real.
     
    Agreed, but you have to admit there is an aura of fagdom this romance radiates. Conrad's sea novels don't have that fairy irradiation, which can be detected also in some other Melville's works. As I said-I think Melville was not a homosexual, but he did possess a homo trait that erupted now & then in his fictions.

    For an author who often writes about the matter of IQ, ‘Sailer’ (yes, ‘Sailer’ doesn’t get Moby Dick) has yet to come to terms with his own shortcomings, biases, and at times, complete idiocy.
     
    Offensive & meaningless. Moby Dick is just not his cup of tea.

    But rating the foremost 18th century work of literature as potentially, possibly… ‘gay’, suggests the author is fighting with his own ‘white whale’, and is not up front about the fact.
     
    18th C?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    I don’t really like 19th Century American literature all that much. The Brits were better at it.

    • Replies: @syonredux
    @Steve Sailer


    I don’t really like 19th Century American literature all that much. The Brits were better at it.
     
    Depends. 19th century Brit poetry (Keats, Wordsworth, Coleridge, Tennyson) trumps Anglo-America (Whitman, Dickinson), but Anglo-America (Poe, Hawthorne, Melville, Bierce, Stephen Crane, Henry James) beats the Brits when it comes to the short story (the Brits didn't really start producing significant short stories until the late 19th century). Long fiction (Melville, Hawthorne, Henry James, Howells, Mark Twain, Stephen Crane vs Dickens, Thackery, Austen, the Brontes, George Eliot, Hardy) is about equal.

    Replies: @syonredux, @Bardon Kaldian

    , @Anon
    @Steve Sailer

    How about Poe? His clean, journalistic writing style is so contemporary sounding, unlike baroque 19th century British stuff. Also, the American historian of the conquistadors, William H. Prescott. Great writer. Actually, Melville comes off pretty contemporary in style.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    , @syonredux
    @Steve Sailer

    We could do a contest. That might be fun:

    HUCKLEBERRY FINN VS OLIVER TWIST

    THE SCARLET LETTER VS JANE EYRE

    MOBY-DICK VS WUTHERING HEIGHTS

    PORTRAIT OF A LADY VS MIDDLEMARCH

  200. @Peter D. Bredon
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Call me Ishmael.

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob

    Call me Ishmael.

    It is virtually certain she’s never been around anything remotely like dick.

    • LOL: Bubba
  201. @Clyde
    @Anon


    Was Phil Spector the latest elderly Covid victim?
    https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-01-17/phil-spector-dead
    Weirdly I had just finished watching YouTube videos from the Wrecking Crew documentary where those ace studio musicians talked about how Spector made his records. Brian Wilson was hanging out in the studio crowd in all the photos.
     
    Jack Nitzsche was the genius behind Phil Spector. You can read his Wikipedia entry. I think Phil Spector was able to be a better front in LA due to being Jewish, while Nitzsche did much of the real grunt work and arranging for Phil Spector produced records. "Wall of Sound" and so on. Nitzsche also is on many Stones and Neil Young recordings. Nitzsche was tight with Sonny Bono who actually had one of his tunes recorded by the Rolling Stones. Bono - "She Said Yeah"

    Early Stones recorded in London, Chicago (Chess Rec), Los Angeles etc. Whenever they recorded in LA, during an American tour, Nitzsche was in the studio with them. Usually on keyboards of some kind

    Replies: @Anon, @MEH 0910

    Wasn’t Jack Nietzsche the guy responsible for the passage of California’s rape by instrumentality law after he stuck a pistol up … you get the picture. I can’t remember if this was before or after Phil Spector pointed a gun at Joey Ramone.

  202. @Anonymous
    @J.Ross

    By "the top two" on the list, I think Sailer means #1 and #2 i.e. "Billy Budd" and "Lawrence of Arabia," not "The Thing" and "The Great Escape."

    Replies: @Boko Fittleworth

    Thank you. Can’t believe it took Comment #93 to correct this. Duh.

  203. Among other things, Moby Dick is about obsession, a topic with which I am unfortunately too familiar.

    I read the book one summer between college years. Why? Because I knew it was considered a great book, and I hadn’t read it, and I had time. I enjoyed the paragraph-long sentences with all the commas, just for the sheer joy of reading them. The subject almost didn’t matter.

    As with other forms of art, the subject serves as a vehicle for whatever the artist wants to do. Also, as has been pointed out, long, descriptive writing was entertaining in the days before movies and recorded music. Readers could lose themselves in it.

    For a story about obsession, why not have a big, white whale? In fact, a big, white whale is the perfect vehicle: once you have seen it in your mind’s eye, you cannot un-see it. It is like the old joke/trick, “Try not to think about a pink elephant.” You can’t not see one in your mind now.

    That whale stays in your mind, and yet you can’t catch it. Ahab is obsessed, and the only way to end the obsession is to catch the object of the obsession and destroy it. But it keeps getting away, just like any obsession. It is terrible. It brings no joy. You suffer.

    The book has to be long, in fact interminable, like an obsession that won’t go away.

  204. @Steve Sailer
    @Bardon Kaldian

    I don't really like 19th Century American literature all that much. The Brits were better at it.

    Replies: @syonredux, @Anon, @syonredux

    I don’t really like 19th Century American literature all that much. The Brits were better at it.

    Depends. 19th century Brit poetry (Keats, Wordsworth, Coleridge, Tennyson) trumps Anglo-America (Whitman, Dickinson), but Anglo-America (Poe, Hawthorne, Melville, Bierce, Stephen Crane, Henry James) beats the Brits when it comes to the short story (the Brits didn’t really start producing significant short stories until the late 19th century). Long fiction (Melville, Hawthorne, Henry James, Howells, Mark Twain, Stephen Crane vs Dickens, Thackery, Austen, the Brontes, George Eliot, Hardy) is about equal.

    • Replies: @syonredux
    @syonredux

    In terms of 19th century non-fiction (essays, histories, etc), I would give an edge to the Brits (Macaulay, Carlyle, Ruskin, Matthew Arnold, John Henry Newman, John Stuart Mill vs Emerson, Thoreau, Oliver Wendell Holmes, William Hickling Prescott, Francis Parkman, Henry Adams, William James).

    , @Bardon Kaldian
    @syonredux

    I would say Steve prefers representations of "social reality" over other types. British writer Allen has divided many/most novelists into three categories: those whose view is mostly "sociological" (Thackeray, Trollope), "psychological" (Eliot, James) & "spiritual" (Melville, Emily Bronte). And there are intersections - Austen's representation of reality is, in his opinion, sociological-psychological; Lawrence's psychological-spiritual, while Dickens is hard to categorize, as a novelist who is basically a fantasist, while firmly anchored in social realities.

  205. @Steve Sailer
    @Bardon Kaldian

    I don't really like 19th Century American literature all that much. The Brits were better at it.

    Replies: @syonredux, @Anon, @syonredux

    How about Poe? His clean, journalistic writing style is so contemporary sounding, unlike baroque 19th century British stuff. Also, the American historian of the conquistadors, William H. Prescott. Great writer. Actually, Melville comes off pretty contemporary in style.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Anon

    I can imagine Melville as a 1960s New Journalist.

  206. War movies are great examples of no women, but great movies.

    Bridge on the River Kwai was great. No women, if memory serves.

    A Bridge too Far. One striking woman actress, who played the Dutch woman who housed Allied wounded. The rest was a brilliant ensemble of man’s men, Anthony Hopkins and Sean Connery among others.

    One of my favorite movies is the Man who Would be King, with Michael Caine and Sean Connery. Adapted from Kipling, it’s horribly imperialist, racist, etc., and ridiculous in its love for the masons, but still brilliant. There is a female, the frightened tribeswoman who thinks Connery is a god and therefore does not want to marry him, thereby bringing down the elaborate ruse the two adventurers had devised to rule the Himalayan frontier.

    Violent Italian westerns also don’t feature much with women, the Wild Bunch comes to mind.

    In all there are a lot of very great movies with few or no women in them, primarily because they provide an image of male camaraderie that is compelling to see, even to women.

    • Replies: @Dan Smith
    @John Milton's Ghost

    There are women in River Kwai but minimal. William Holden is hitting on a nurse. Several Burmese women make the trek with the team to carry supplies.

  207. Surprised how many of you brainiacs, can’t guess the list is in ascending order.

  208. @syonredux
    @Steve Sailer


    I don’t really like 19th Century American literature all that much. The Brits were better at it.
     
    Depends. 19th century Brit poetry (Keats, Wordsworth, Coleridge, Tennyson) trumps Anglo-America (Whitman, Dickinson), but Anglo-America (Poe, Hawthorne, Melville, Bierce, Stephen Crane, Henry James) beats the Brits when it comes to the short story (the Brits didn't really start producing significant short stories until the late 19th century). Long fiction (Melville, Hawthorne, Henry James, Howells, Mark Twain, Stephen Crane vs Dickens, Thackery, Austen, the Brontes, George Eliot, Hardy) is about equal.

    Replies: @syonredux, @Bardon Kaldian

    In terms of 19th century non-fiction (essays, histories, etc), I would give an edge to the Brits (Macaulay, Carlyle, Ruskin, Matthew Arnold, John Henry Newman, John Stuart Mill vs Emerson, Thoreau, Oliver Wendell Holmes, William Hickling Prescott, Francis Parkman, Henry Adams, William James).

  209. @Anon
    @Steve Sailer

    How about Poe? His clean, journalistic writing style is so contemporary sounding, unlike baroque 19th century British stuff. Also, the American historian of the conquistadors, William H. Prescott. Great writer. Actually, Melville comes off pretty contemporary in style.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    I can imagine Melville as a 1960s New Journalist.

  210. @Whiskey
    Top five greatest movies made:

    1. Star Wars
    2. Raiders
    3. Die Hard
    4. Rambo First Blood
    5. Rocky

    Honorable mention:

    Last Action Hero.

    Replies: @obwandiyag

    God is your taste bad.

    • Replies: @Stan Adams
    @obwandiyag

    You said it.

    I’m a huge Schwarzenegger fan. The Terminator, Commando, and Total Recall are all high on my list. But Last Action Hero is just plain boring. It’s as if someone watched Terminator 2 and said, “Hey, let’s make the John Connor brat even more useless and annoying!”

    It’s hard to rank my favorites, because I can never quite make up my mind. For classic cinema, I’d probably go with King Vidor’s ridiculous adaptation of The Fountainhead. For badly-dubbed anime, Locke the Superman. For teen slasher flicks, Scream.

    As I’ve said before, I tend to think in terms of favorite scenes. I could watch the entrance-to-the-desert scene from Lawrence in Arabia over and over again. I love the scene in Alien where Ripley escapes from the Nostromo; the scene in Prizzi’s Honor where Kathleen Turner and Jack Nicholson try to kill each other while Noche de Ronda plays in the background; the scene in Chinatown where Nicholson learns the truth about Faye Dunaway’s paternity; the scene in The War of the Roses where Turner’s husband Michael Douglas ruins her dinner party by pissing on the fish. Unless I happened to be in the mood, I would not necessarily want to watch any of those movies from start to finish.

    Replies: @Peter D. Bredon, @R.G. Camara

  211. @Bardon Kaldian
    This is Alison Bechdel. And she is a woman - real, genetic woman.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Alison_Bechdel_at_the_Boston_Book_Festival.jpg/1280px-Alison_Bechdel_at_the_Boston_Book_Festival.jpg

    Wow...... I mean: Wow

    Replies: @James O'Meara, @Peter D. Bredon, @Russ, @Mr. Anon, @Aardvark, @Mike Tre, @donut, @Anon, @MBlanc46, @Yancey Ward

    Not even ear-rings. Most dykes do wear ear-rings.

  212. @Boswald Bollocksworth
    Moby Dick is *not* gay. Ishmael is just naive.

    surprised Steve doesn't see this, being born in the late 50s, but then he *is* a C*lifornian!

    As others have mentioned, the American requirement to maintain a certain amount of physical distance from other men is very much an externality of the homosexualist cultural jihad. Further back in the modern period, it largely does not occur to people that there's an association between males being physically close and the unnatural vice, because people hardly thought of such behavior. Even 10 years ago I remember being shocked by two German men with girlfriends sitting extremely close to each other on a couch, but in Germany, they hadn't had the full homosexualist jihad yet. You can go to all sorts of cultures, even today, and see similar. In China, male friends hold freaking hands, and the unnatural vice does not occur to them, very rare in China.

    Replies: @Anon, @martin_2, @Marty

  213. @Anon
    OT

    Was Phil Spector the latest elderly Covid victim?

    https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-01-17/phil-spector-dead

    Weirdly I had just finished watching YouTube videos from the Wrecking Crew documentary where those ace studio musicians talked about how Spector made his records. Brian Wilson was hanging out in the studio crowd in all the photos.

    Replies: @Clyde, @Peter D. Bredon

    Phil Spector crafting River Deep Mountain High:

  214. I watched Steel Magnolias for the first time last week. My wife loves it. All the male characters are one dimensional. No action no conflict barely a plot. Positive correlation between good movies and strong male characters.

  215. @donut
    "I tried reading Moby Dick for the first time last week, but Melville’s facetious tone didn’t do anything for me." Philistine .

    Das Boot should be on your list as well .

    Replies: @68W58, @I, Libertine

    Das Boot. The only WW II flick that had me rooting for the Germans. It’s that good.

    • Replies: @Gordo
    @I, Libertine

    There is a long version released as a mini-series, very good.

    , @Peter Akuleyev
    @I, Libertine

    Avoid the horrendous "re-Boot" German television produced last year. Imagine all the ways Woke culture would ruin that movie and you have the new version - hours of "action" on land with wives and sisters, wives saving Jewish refugees hidden by Partisans, men talking about their feelings, plenty of discussion about how Nazis are bad, etc. I didn't stick around long enough to see if they had incorporated some brave African sailors from Namibia, but if they haven't yet, I'm sure they will be there next season.

  216. @John Milton's Ghost
    War movies are great examples of no women, but great movies.

    Bridge on the River Kwai was great. No women, if memory serves.

    A Bridge too Far. One striking woman actress, who played the Dutch woman who housed Allied wounded. The rest was a brilliant ensemble of man's men, Anthony Hopkins and Sean Connery among others.

    One of my favorite movies is the Man who Would be King, with Michael Caine and Sean Connery. Adapted from Kipling, it's horribly imperialist, racist, etc., and ridiculous in its love for the masons, but still brilliant. There is a female, the frightened tribeswoman who thinks Connery is a god and therefore does not want to marry him, thereby bringing down the elaborate ruse the two adventurers had devised to rule the Himalayan frontier.

    Violent Italian westerns also don't feature much with women, the Wild Bunch comes to mind.

    In all there are a lot of very great movies with few or no women in them, primarily because they provide an image of male camaraderie that is compelling to see, even to women.

    Replies: @Dan Smith

    There are women in River Kwai but minimal. William Holden is hitting on a nurse. Several Burmese women make the trek with the team to carry supplies.

  217. @Anon
    Horror fiction is an interesting case.

    There are no female characters in H.P. Lovecraft's Cthulu Mythos fiction. Perhaps that is one of the reasons why there was not been a major movie adaptation of At The Mountain of Madness.

    There have been female characters in horror fiction before Lovecraft, such as in Edgar Allan Poe's, and certainly in horror fiction after Lovecraft.

    I heard a theory, I think from a contributor to Pajamas Media, that a good horror movie has a hot actress. Examples of this theory:

    The Birds
    Psycho
    Don't Look Now
    Halloween

    Replies: @obwandiyag, @James O'Meara, @Ray P

    Horror is horrible. Listen to the words. Horror is horrible. People who watch it have psychological problems.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @obwandiyag

    I have to agree with you, but I don't consider the Hitchcock films horror. I think suspense is the word.

    Replies: @syonredux

    , @syonredux
    @obwandiyag

    Horror isn't to everyone's taste. But impressive work has been done with the genre: Val Lewton's THE SEVENTH VICTIM, Dreyer's VAMPYR, Murnau's NOSFERATU, etc

  218. @obwandiyag
    @Anon

    Horror is horrible. Listen to the words. Horror is horrible. People who watch it have psychological problems.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @syonredux

    I have to agree with you, but I don’t consider the Hitchcock films horror. I think suspense is the word.

    • Replies: @syonredux
    @Buzz Mohawk

    PSYCHO and THE BIRDS count as horror. Indeed, in the case of PSYCHO, much of the film's interest derives from the way the thriller plot (Janet Leigh as a woman on the run with stolen funds) gets taken over by the Norman Bates Psycho slasher horror plot.

  219. I got about half-way through MOBY DICK, before losing interest.

    My favorite part was a very brief mention of a phenomenon in Spain, where there is supposedly a volcanic lake where oceanic relics & pelagic fish are sometimes found. This is said of several other places (such as Pyramid Lake, in northern Nevada), and invariably, when researching such phenomena, you will encounter the phrase “limestone caverns”. Which I suspect one day will turn out to be relevant somehow, but in fairness, I probably like Fortean stuff more than most readers here.

  220. 4411420

    she saw Kurth out one Saturday night in black leather on a motorcycle with some gents,

    This is straight out the Christopher Lee character parodied in the movie “Serial”.

  221. @Buffalo Joe
    @prosa123

    prosa, in the book Michael avenges Appolonia's murder, not in the movie. So maybe the movie works without Appolonia, who by the way, was gorgeous. Sunny could have been drawn out by harming Fredo perhaps, don't know, but he was a loose cannon. Kay was a prop to humanize a murderer, and rare is the Don who marries outside of the clan. But your points are good and well written. Stay safe.

    Replies: @prosa123

    Something that came across more clearly in the novel was that Michael was hoping to come back to America after a year or two in Sicilian exile and resume his life on the legitimate side of things. By making a huge payment to his wife and children the Corleone Family got a man already on death row for unrelated crimes to confess to the Solozzo and McCluskey shootings and take the heat off Michael. But Appolonia’s murder quashed Michael’s plans and forced him into Family business.
    As far as I know the revenge shooting of Calo, who had planted the bomb in Appolonia’s car, was omitted from the movie was simply to keep it from being even longer.

  222. @obwandiyag
    @Whiskey

    God is your taste bad.

    Replies: @Stan Adams

    You said it.

    I’m a huge Schwarzenegger fan. The Terminator, Commando, and Total Recall are all high on my list. But Last Action Hero is just plain boring. It’s as if someone watched Terminator 2 and said, “Hey, let’s make the John Connor brat even more useless and annoying!”

    It’s hard to rank my favorites, because I can never quite make up my mind. For classic cinema, I’d probably go with King Vidor’s ridiculous adaptation of The Fountainhead. For badly-dubbed anime, Locke the Superman. For teen slasher flicks, Scream.

    As I’ve said before, I tend to think in terms of favorite scenes. I could watch the entrance-to-the-desert scene from Lawrence in Arabia over and over again. I love the scene in Alien where Ripley escapes from the Nostromo; the scene in Prizzi’s Honor where Kathleen Turner and Jack Nicholson try to kill each other while Noche de Ronda plays in the background; the scene in Chinatown where Nicholson learns the truth about Faye Dunaway’s paternity; the scene in The War of the Roses where Turner’s husband Michael Douglas ruins her dinner party by pissing on the fish. Unless I happened to be in the mood, I would not necessarily want to watch any of those movies from start to finish.

    • Replies: @Peter D. Bredon
    @Stan Adams

    People complain about "the modern world" but it's nice to be able to access not just a movie (or opera recording) but a scene here and there. It's an odd throwback to nickelodeons and and 3 minute 78s.

    Replies: @Stan Adams

    , @R.G. Camara
    @Stan Adams


    But Last Action Hero is just plain boring. It’s as if someone watched Terminator 2 and said, “Hey, let’s make the John Connor brat even more useless and annoying!”
     
    Disagree. It was Arnold, still in his prime, being humorously meta about action movies, years before Scream started being meta about horror movies. Quite cutesty and clever in its own right, and had a great movie theme song ("Two Steps Behind" by Def Leopard) but it came out the same summer as Jurassic Park, and got killed by that juggernaut.

    Plus it introduced us to Bridget Wilson-Sampras in her young-20's glory hotness.

    Plus, if you watch it now, in the post-COVID world, the closing old movie theater and empty seats pack a special punch. Just near me a Showcase cinema closed after nearly 70 years of operation. We are losing a lot in this mess.

  223. @Bardon Kaldian
    This is Alison Bechdel. And she is a woman - real, genetic woman.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Alison_Bechdel_at_the_Boston_Book_Festival.jpg/1280px-Alison_Bechdel_at_the_Boston_Book_Festival.jpg

    Wow...... I mean: Wow

    Replies: @James O'Meara, @Peter D. Bredon, @Russ, @Mr. Anon, @Aardvark, @Mike Tre, @donut, @Anon, @MBlanc46, @Yancey Ward

    If she got a guy to put a ring on it, then she is smarter than Einstein.

  224. @Known Fact
    Numerous war, adventure or astronaut movies would have worked just fine without women, but the producers could not resist the urge to shoehorn in a Geena Davis or Nancy Allen type to whip up some emoting back home, I suppose to help create a more viable date movie. And now of course there must be a woman on the mission, leading the crew or at least handling the high-tech.

    Movies that very ably inserted a female character on the front lines, not mere gender window-dressing, include Alien (Siggy Weaver) and MASH (Sally Kellerman and then Loretta Swit on TV). I'm a Catch-22 person, not a MASH person, but Heller's work and the subsequent film failed to create a memorable female character (as much as I like Paula Prentiss)

    Replies: @Jus' Sayin'..., @Peter D. Bredon

    “Heller’s work and the subsequent film failed to create a memorable female character (as much as I like Paula Prentiss)”

    Never understood why this movie was so underrated, even today.

    • Replies: @Known Fact
    @Peter D. Bredon

    Catch-22 was brilliantly cast and produced, but also a little top-heavy with the pretentious cinematic techniques that made the early 70s so great but in this case it was just too much. There was a distanced, detached tone that didn't catch the insanity of the book. MASH by comparison -- and the two films were relentlessly compared -- was an irreverent romp, and you didn't need to have read the book.

    We read Catch-22 in high school (I'd already read it myself, and had to do it again in college lit!) and the class was really excited when the cast members for the movie were announced a few months later. Too bad it eventually bombed and disappeared.

    Replies: @James O'Meara

  225. @Anon
    My Dinner with Andre is not a good movie. It is a bunch of insanely annoying hippie libtard blather. They might as well have been discussing the healing power of crystals for all the intellectual content in it.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @black sea

    Another way of looking at it is My Dinner with Andre is a gentle satire of hippy libtard blather.

  226. @Days of Broken Arrows
    Probably not a coincidence that the music that's most revered are the classic rock bands with no female members.

    Replies: @Peter D. Bredon

    You mean, of course, “pop” music. Well, I guess but… Fleetwood Mac? Heart?

    Arguably the greatest Rolling Stones track is Gimme Shelter due to Merrie Clayton’s vocal.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    @Peter D. Bredon

    That's an odd mix, not heard that before.

    I must say I love the opening of that track more than I love the rest of the track. Gorgeous guitar and vocals. Fair play to all concerned and especially Jimmy Miller whose idea it was a/c/t wiki to add female vocals.

    'I hear a girl on this track – get one on the phone.'

    Steve, btw, Thomas Hardy wrote a lot of short stories. All free on Gutenberg these days.

    https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/3058

    Replies: @Peter D. Bredon

  227. Melville, expressing to Hawthorne the timeless lament of the writer:

    “Dollars damn me . . . . What I feel most moved to write, that is banned, — it will not pay. Yet, altogether, write the other way I cannot. So the product is a final hash, and all my books are botches.”

  228. @etype
    Moby Dick is one the greatest works of art of the last 300 years. Melville is America's Shakespeare, America's Homer. A works such as this, as with Shakespeare, requires a reader of intelligence and sensitivity. It is not a work a intelligent reader asks "is this too gay?", but "is this real?" Moby Dick is beyond real, it is a work of art without parallel, it is beyond real.
    For an author who often writes about the matter of IQ, 'Sailer' (yes, 'Sailer' doesn't get Moby Dick) has yet to come to terms with his own shortcomings, biases, and at times, complete idiocy. But rating the foremost 18th century work of literature as potentially, possibly... 'gay', suggests the author is fighting with his own 'white whale', and is not up front about the fact.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @James O'Meara

    Schopenhauer, I believe, can be our guide here, in the contrast he makes in literature between beauty and mere “interest.” By the way, it’s no coincidence that all four of those “immortal masterpieces” he mentions are stylistically shambles – the “loose, baggy monsters” that Henry James sneered at — and, to most honest readers, utterly boring. He was writing before Moby Dick was rediscovered.

    “The beauty of a work of art consists in the fact that it holds up a clear mirror to certain ideas inherent in the world in general; the beauty of a work of poetic art in particular is that it renders the ideas inherent in mankind, and thereby leads it to a knowledge of these ideas….

    “On the other hand, we call drama or descriptive poetry interesting when it represents events and actions of a kind which necessarily arouse concern or sympathy, like that which we feel in real events involving our own person. The fate of the person represented in them is felt in just the same fashion as our own: we await the development of events with anxiety; we eagerly follow their course; our hearts quicken when the hero is threatened; our pulse falters as the danger reaches its acme, and throbs again when he is suddenly rescued. …

    “[I]nterest does not necessarily involve beauty; and, conversely, it is true that beauty does not necessarily involve interest. Significant characters may be represented, that open up the depths of human nature, and it may all be expressed in actions and sufferings of an exceptional kind, so that the real nature of humanity and the world may stand forth in the picture in the clearest and most forcible lines; and yet no high degree of interest may be excited in the course of events by the continued progress of the action, or by the complexity and unexpected solution of the plot. The immortal masterpieces of Shakespeare contain little that excites interest; the action does not go forward in one straight line, but falters, as in Hamlet, all through the play; or else it spreads out in breadth, as in The Merchant of Venice, …; or the scenes hang loosely together, as in Henry IV….

    :Father Homer lays the world and humanity before us in its true nature, but he takes no trouble to attract our sympathy by a complexity of circumstance, or to surprise us by unexpected entanglements. His pace is lingering; he stops at every scene; he puts one picture after another tranquilly before us, elaborating it with care. We experience no passionate emotion in reading him; our demeanour is one of pure perceptive intelligence; he does not arouse our will, but sings it to rest; and it costs us no effort to break off in our reading, for we are not in condition of eager curiosity. This is all still more true of Dante, whose work is not, in the proper sense of the word, an epic, but a descriptive poem. The same thing may be said of the four immortal romances: Don Quixote, Tristram Shandy, La Nouvelle Heloïse, and Wilhelm Meister. To arouse our interest is by no means the chief aim of these works….” [Art of Controversy, Ch. 4]

  229. @R.G. Camara
    @James O'Meara

    Considering she was a prostitute domesticated by the red-headed dude in search of a fitting replacement for his dead wife/mother to his kids, there's much in there about the domestication of the West affecting men and women, as well as allowing for fresh starts.

    Prostitution in the old West flourished due to a lot of lonely guys and only a few available women, but once men pacified it to a reasonable extent enough women showed up such that brothels were no longer the huge business they had been, and then the new women got the old whorehouses shut down (as they were competition for the new women and also didn't gibe with the new women's religious sensibilities).

    Replies: @black sea

    I read once about gangs of prim, 19th Century New England schoolmarms who would take the trains out West every summer to work the mining camps and cow towns. Their purses filled, so to speak, they would return to their blackboards in the fall.

    I thought it was a wonderful anecdote, though I don’t know if it is entirely true.

  230. @slumber_j
    @Ben Kurtz

    You're right about everything. And in addition to the whole human condition, Moby-Dick contains just about every sort of writing imaginable, including a sermon and a scientific treatise. You just have to let it wash over you.

    Replies: @Bu'bha al-Teksani

    Congratulations. You’re the first commenter, I believe, to get the hyphen in Moby-Dick.

  231. @Anon
    Horror fiction is an interesting case.

    There are no female characters in H.P. Lovecraft's Cthulu Mythos fiction. Perhaps that is one of the reasons why there was not been a major movie adaptation of At The Mountain of Madness.

    There have been female characters in horror fiction before Lovecraft, such as in Edgar Allan Poe's, and certainly in horror fiction after Lovecraft.

    I heard a theory, I think from a contributor to Pajamas Media, that a good horror movie has a hot actress. Examples of this theory:

    The Birds
    Psycho
    Don't Look Now
    Halloween

    Replies: @obwandiyag, @James O'Meara, @Ray P

    “There are no female characters in H.P. Lovecraft’s Cthulu Mythos fiction. Perhaps that is one of the reasons why there was not been a major movie adaptation of At The Mountain of Madness.”

    Well, pretty true but there’s Lavinia Whately in “The Dunwich Horror.” The recent film of the non-Cthulhu story “The Colour Out of Space” has a mother and daughter and is pretty good.

    • Replies: @syonredux
    @James O'Meara


    Well, pretty true but there’s Lavinia Whately in “The Dunwich Horror.”
     
    I can't recall. Do we get any glimpses of the real Asenath in "The Thing on the Doorstep" before Ephraim Waite takes residence in her body?


    https://factsprovidence.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/providence06-women.jpg
  232. @Anon
    An Evelyn Waugh fan who has probably read Brideshead Revisited several times touches Moby Dick for the first time in his 60s and thinks it's too gay?

    Replies: @James O'Meara

    Well, maybe sex between nice young English men is OK, but when you bring in a tattooed native, Steve draws the line!

  233. @syonredux
    @SFG

    Ah, Lovecraft in Dunsanian mode, gorgeous stuff. Of course, for sheer verbal pyrotechnics, Clark Ashton Smith is hard to beat:


    On Zothique, the last continent on Earth, the sun no longer shone with the whiteness of its prime, but was dim and tarnished as if with a vapor of blood. New stars without number had declared themselves in the heavens, and the shadows of the infinite had fallen closer. And out of the shadows, the older gods had returned to man: the gods forgotten since Hyperborea, since Mu and Poseidonis, bearing other names but the same attributes. And the elder demons had also returned, battening on the fumes of evil sacrifice, and fostering again the primordial sorceries.
     

    Replies: @Peter D. Bredon, @SFG

    Critics like Joshi think HPL was right to abandon his “Dunsany” tales and pioneer science/horror. Not sure I agree, really. Perhaps an example of critics praising “new” and “pioneering” stuff rather than good, satisfying stuff.

  234. @Stan Adams
    @obwandiyag

    You said it.

    I’m a huge Schwarzenegger fan. The Terminator, Commando, and Total Recall are all high on my list. But Last Action Hero is just plain boring. It’s as if someone watched Terminator 2 and said, “Hey, let’s make the John Connor brat even more useless and annoying!”

    It’s hard to rank my favorites, because I can never quite make up my mind. For classic cinema, I’d probably go with King Vidor’s ridiculous adaptation of The Fountainhead. For badly-dubbed anime, Locke the Superman. For teen slasher flicks, Scream.

    As I’ve said before, I tend to think in terms of favorite scenes. I could watch the entrance-to-the-desert scene from Lawrence in Arabia over and over again. I love the scene in Alien where Ripley escapes from the Nostromo; the scene in Prizzi’s Honor where Kathleen Turner and Jack Nicholson try to kill each other while Noche de Ronda plays in the background; the scene in Chinatown where Nicholson learns the truth about Faye Dunaway’s paternity; the scene in The War of the Roses where Turner’s husband Michael Douglas ruins her dinner party by pissing on the fish. Unless I happened to be in the mood, I would not necessarily want to watch any of those movies from start to finish.

    Replies: @Peter D. Bredon, @R.G. Camara

    People complain about “the modern world” but it’s nice to be able to access not just a movie (or opera recording) but a scene here and there. It’s an odd throwback to nickelodeons and and 3 minute 78s.

    • Replies: @Stan Adams
    @Peter D. Bredon

    As much as we complain about current events - and there is much to complain about - we would do well to remember that, in many ways, we are the luckiest assholes who've ever walked the face of the earth. We are spoiled beyond imagination.

    Virtually all of the great literature, art, and music created throughout human history is available online, and most of it is free. From the Great Books to the Silly Symphonies, it's all there.

    Despite the political turmoil, cultural chaos, and social malaise that characterize American life in 2021, and despite the malfeasance of the Internet monopolies, we are living in a technological utopia. It won't last forever, so enjoy it while you can.

  235. @syonredux
    @Achmed E. Newman


    I tried reading Moby Dick for the first time last week, but Melville’s facetious tone didn’t do anything for me.
     
    If memory serves, Steve, you're not a Milton fan, which means that Melville will simply not be your cup of tea. That's unfortunate. Melville, at his best, is one of the greatest Anglophone authors:

    All visible objects, man, are but as pasteboard masks. But in each event — in the living act, the undoubted deed — there, some unknown but still reasoning thing puts forth the mouldings of its features from behind the unreasoning mask. If man will strike, strike through the mask! How can the prisoner reach outside except by thrusting through the wall? To me, the white whale is that wall, shoved near to me. Sometimes I think there’s naught beyond. But ’tis enough. He tasks me; he heaps me; I see in him outrageous strength, with an inscrutable malice sinewing it. That inscrutable thing is chiefly what I hate; and be the white whale agent, or be the white whale principal, I will wreak that hate upon him. Talk not to me of blasphemy, man; I’d strike the sun if it insulted me. For could the sun do that, then could I do the other; since there is ever a sort of fair play herein, jealousy presiding over all creations. But not my master, man, is even that fair play. Who’s over me? Truth hath no confines.
     

    Replies: @Bubba

    Forgive me if this has already been posted in reply to disliking Milton…

  236. @Escher
    No sniggering comments about the name “Moby Dick” yet?

    Replies: @NickG, @Ghost of Bull Moose

    Self refuting statement alert!

  237. @Steve Sailer
    @Bardon Kaldian

    I don't really like 19th Century American literature all that much. The Brits were better at it.

    Replies: @syonredux, @Anon, @syonredux

    We could do a contest. That might be fun:

    HUCKLEBERRY FINN VS OLIVER TWIST

    THE SCARLET LETTER VS JANE EYRE

    MOBY-DICK VS WUTHERING HEIGHTS

    PORTRAIT OF A LADY VS MIDDLEMARCH

  238. @Buzz Mohawk
    @obwandiyag

    I have to agree with you, but I don't consider the Hitchcock films horror. I think suspense is the word.

    Replies: @syonredux

    PSYCHO and THE BIRDS count as horror. Indeed, in the case of PSYCHO, much of the film’s interest derives from the way the thriller plot (Janet Leigh as a woman on the run with stolen funds) gets taken over by the Norman Bates Psycho slasher horror plot.

  239. I’d probably vote for Lawrence of Arabia as the greatest movie of all time.

    Agreed.

    Billy Budd I see no merit in.

  240. @obwandiyag
    @Anon

    Horror is horrible. Listen to the words. Horror is horrible. People who watch it have psychological problems.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @syonredux

    Horror isn’t to everyone’s taste. But impressive work has been done with the genre: Val Lewton’s THE SEVENTH VICTIM, Dreyer’s VAMPYR, Murnau’s NOSFERATU, etc

  241. @Lot
    @prosa123

    Until the 1970s many states let women opt out of jury service. Those that didn’t still excused women more liberally. So they ended up as 1 to 25% of jury pools.

    My recollection of pre-75 courtroom scenes is women are usually on juries but much less than half.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    My recollection of pre-75 courtroom scenes is women are usually on juries but much less than half.

    “My recollection of pre-RBG courtroom scenes is women are usually on juries but much less than half.”

    Fixed that.

    Missouri federal judge reflects on Supreme Court case with Ginsburg: ‘She was outstanding’

    Duren v. Missouri

    Duren v. Missouri, 439 U.S. 357 (1979)

    NB: The article linked to contains two errors: it wasn’t the county’s policy, but a clause in the Missouri constitution. Louisiana did not exclude women entirely, but only added them to the list if they volunteered beforehand. They were about 1% of the Pelican jury pool.

  242. @anon
    Both books, movies a waste of time.

    Fishing, hunting, whittling, spitting.

    Indian, Viking type stuff.

    Replies: @Gordo

    Both books, movies a waste of time.

    Fishing, hunting, whittling, spitting.

    Indian, Viking type stuff.

    So we need to revive that great oral tradition?

  243. @Bardon Kaldian
    @TBA

    I've addressed this before ....

    Would Lord of the Flies have any meaning with girls instead of boys?

    Well: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/15-hilarious-women-respond-to-the-all-female-lord-of-the-flies-remake_n_59a80f16e4b010ca289aa631

    https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2020/12/the-wilds-tv-show-review-lord-of-the-flies-amazon
    ………………

    “The all-female Lord of the Flies will just be a group of young women apologizing to each other over and over till everyone is dead,” wrote Jessica Valenti.) Still more argued the opposite—that we’ve already seen plenty of stories about what happens when teenage girls form their own sub-societies and unleash their cruelty upon one another. Lord of the Flies with girls would be almost too real, they said, echoing an old John Mulaney joke about how women just don’t get along: “Ocean’s 11 with women wouldn’t work, because two would keep breaking off to talk shit about the other nine.”

    Feminist author Roxane Gay tweeted, “An all women remake of Lord of the Flies makes no sense because… the plot of that book wouldn’t happen with all women.”

    Replies: @Gordo

    Feminist author Roxane Gay tweeted, “An all women remake of Lord of the Flies makes no sense because… the plot of that book wouldn’t happen with all women.”

    It wouldn’t happen with all men either.

    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/may/09/the-real-lord-of-the-flies-what-happened-when-six-boys-were-shipwrecked-for-15-months

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @Gordo

    Thanks for a very good article. But:

    a) these guys were non-whites, Polynesians of a sort, I think

    b) Golding never implied that any all-young male marooned community would descend into savagery. Nor, I think, did most readers thought that.

    But the funniest thing about this real life story is this: The local physician later expressed astonishment at their muscled physiques and Stephen’s perfectly healed leg. But this wasn’t the end of the boys’ little adventure, because, when they arrived back in Nuku‘alofa police boarded Peter’s boat, arrested the boys and threw them in jail. Mr Taniela Uhila, whose sailing boat the boys had “borrowed” 15 months earlier, was still furious, and he’d decided to press charges.

    Bureaucratic mind. Astonishing.

    Replies: @photondancer

  244. @Bardon Kaldian

    I tried reading Moby Dick for the first time last week, but Melville’s facetious tone didn’t do anything for me.
     
    E.M.Forster was, I think, right about Moby Dick:

    Moby Dick is an easy book, as long as we read it as a yarn or an account of whaling interspersed with snatches of poetry. But as soon as we catch the song in it, it grows difficult and immensely
    important. Narrowed and hardened into words the spiritual theme of Moby Dick is as follows: a battle against evil conducted too long or in the wrong way. The White Whale is evil, and Captain Ahab is warped by constant pursuit until his knight-errantry turns into revenge. These are words—a symbol for the book if we want one— but they do not carry us much further than the acceptance of the book as a yarn—perhaps they carry us backwards, for they may mislead us into harmonizing the incidents, and so losing their roughness and richness. The idea of a contest we may retain: all action is a battle, the only happiness is peace. But contest between what? We get false if we say that it is between good and evil or between two unreconciled evils. The essential in Moby Dick, its prophetic song, flows athwart the action and the surface morality like an undercurrent. It lies outside words. Even at the end, when the ship has gone down with the bird of heaven pinned to its mast, and the empty coffin, bouncing up from the vortex, has carried Ishmael back to the world—even then we cannot catch the words of the song.
    ...............................
    The extraordinary nature of the book appears in two of its early incidents—the sermon about Jonah and the friendship with Queequeg.

    The sermon has nothing to do with Christianity. It asks for endurance or loyalty without hope of reward.
    ..........................
    I believe it is not a coincidence that the last ship we encounter at the end of the book before the final catastrophe should be called the Delight; a vessel of ill omen who has herself encountered Moby
    Dick and been shattered by him. But what the connection was in the prophet’s mind I cannot say, nor could he tell us.

    Immediately after the sermon, Ishmael makes a passionate alliance with the cannibal Queequeg, and it looks for a moment that the book is to be a saga of blood-brotherhood.

    But human relationships mean little to Melville, and after a grotesque and violent entry, Queequeg is almost forgotten. Almost—not quite. Towards the end he falls ill and a coffin is made for him which he does not occupy, as he recovers. It is this coffin, serving as a life-buoy, that saves Ishmael from the final whirlpool, and this again is no coincidence, but an unformulated connection that sprang up in Melville’s mind. Moby Dick is full of meanings: its meaning is a different problem. It is wrong to turn the Delight or the coffin into symbols, because even if the symbolism is correct, it silences the book. Nothing can be stated about Moby Dick except that it is a contest. The rest is song.

     

    Personally, my favorite Melville is Billy Budd, Bartleby & few other tales.

    Replies: @Bubba, @Kylie, @Gabe Ruth

    If you want to read the real story about Moby Dick, then I highly recommend, In the Heart of the Sea: The Tragedy of the Whaleship Essex by Nathaniel Philbrick – it’s an excellent read. I think Herman Melville ends his novel where it should have started.

    • Agree: Gordo
  245. 4411420

    It was probably Malcolm Forbes instead.

  246. As in fiction, females also get short shrift in Cæsar’s autobiographical Gallic Wars; it’s almost as if women were not members of ancient Roman legions. That females should not figure in historically accurate tales of the Royal Navy like Master & Commander is inconceivable, given the ubiquitous number of female sailers present upon British ships of the day. Similarly, we all know in what high esteem Arabs hold female soldiers, such they they outnumbered men ten to one in the campaigns of the Great War involving that people. Likewise, no woman figures centrally in either the Odyssey or the Iliad save Penelope and Helen. It’s all so unrealistic….

    • LOL: Bubba
  247. @Reg Cæsar
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi


    “The top two are fairly gay.”

    So is Lawrence, btw. Homoerotically to the max.
     
    Do they show him being beaten at breakfast by his camel boy? As in real life?

    How many people convert to both Islam and BDSM?

    Dashcams show Mecca to be like any other modern commercial city. (You ain't missin' nothin' by being banned.) How robust is the gay scene there?



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_j0EflVRZo

    If you're interested and you've got an hour and a half to spare, Mecca may be in the wrong spot.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Lot, @prosa123, @Bubba

    Wow! That seems much more civilized than driving in Riyadh! I just couldn’t get used to the Riyadh drivers in the right lane at stop light who had no issue with immediately making a left hand turn across 4 lanes of same direction traffic when the light turned green.

  248. @I, Libertine
    @donut

    Das Boot. The only WW II flick that had me rooting for the Germans. It’s that good.

    Replies: @Gordo, @Peter Akuleyev

    There is a long version released as a mini-series, very good.

  249. Have you never shared a bed with another guy? Because you’re worried he might put his arm near you? How do you not read that Melville bit comically?

  250. My favorite passage in Moby Dick describes the “boggy, soggy, squitchy picture“, hanging in the Spouter-Inn.. The picture was so damaged by smoke that in the dim light, it could be interpreted in so many ways. He finally decided that it was an image of a whale impaling itself on the masts of a ship, which is a horrifying sight to behold before going on a whaling voyage.

    http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks/z00015.html

    Entering that gable-ended Spouter-Inn, you found yourself in a wide, low, straggling entry with old-fashioned wainscots, reminding one of the bulwarks of some condemned old craft. On one side hung a very large oilpainting so thoroughly besmoked, and every way defaced, that in the unequal crosslights by which you viewed it, it was only by diligent study and a series of systematic visits to it, and careful inquiry of the neighbors, that you could any way arrive at an understanding of its purpose. Such unaccountable masses of shades and shadows, that at first you almost thought some ambitious young artist, in the time of the New England hags, had endeavored to delineate chaos bewitched. But by dint of much and earnest contemplation, and oft repeated ponderings, and especially by throwing open the little window towards the back of the entry, you at last come to the conclusion that such an idea, however wild, might not be altogether unwarranted.

    But what most puzzled and confounded you was a long, limber, portentous, black mass of something hovering in the centre of the picture over three blue, dim, perpendicular lines floating in a nameless yeast. A boggy, soggy, squitchy picture truly, enough to drive a nervous man distracted. Yet was there a sort of indefinite, half-attained, unimaginable sublimity about it that fairly froze you to it, till you involuntarily took an oath with yourself to find out what that marvellous painting meant. Ever and anon a bright, but, alas, deceptive idea would dart you through.—It’s the Black Sea in a midnight gale.—It’s the unnatural combat of the four primal elements.—It’s a blasted heath.—It’s a Hyperborean winter scene.—It’s the breaking-up of the icebound stream of Time. But at last all these fancies yielded to that one portentous something in the picture’s midst. That once found out, and all the rest were plain. But stop; does it not bear a faint resemblance to a gigantic fish? even the great leviathan himself?

    In fact, the artist’s design seemed this: a final theory of my own, partly based upon the aggregated opinions of many aged persons with whom I conversed upon the subject. The picture represents a Cape-Horner in a great hurricane; the half-foundered ship weltering there with its three dismantled masts alone visible; and an exasperated whale, purposing to spring clean over the craft, is in the enormous act of impaling himself upon the three mast-heads.

  251. @syonredux
    @Steve Sailer


    I don’t really like 19th Century American literature all that much. The Brits were better at it.
     
    Depends. 19th century Brit poetry (Keats, Wordsworth, Coleridge, Tennyson) trumps Anglo-America (Whitman, Dickinson), but Anglo-America (Poe, Hawthorne, Melville, Bierce, Stephen Crane, Henry James) beats the Brits when it comes to the short story (the Brits didn't really start producing significant short stories until the late 19th century). Long fiction (Melville, Hawthorne, Henry James, Howells, Mark Twain, Stephen Crane vs Dickens, Thackery, Austen, the Brontes, George Eliot, Hardy) is about equal.

    Replies: @syonredux, @Bardon Kaldian

    I would say Steve prefers representations of “social reality” over other types. British writer Allen has divided many/most novelists into three categories: those whose view is mostly “sociological” (Thackeray, Trollope), “psychological” (Eliot, James) & “spiritual” (Melville, Emily Bronte). And there are intersections – Austen’s representation of reality is, in his opinion, sociological-psychological; Lawrence’s psychological-spiritual, while Dickens is hard to categorize, as a novelist who is basically a fantasist, while firmly anchored in social realities.

  252. @Harry Baldwin
    Sergio Leone's epic "Man With No Name" trilogy has no women characters that appear for more than a few seconds.

    Fourth season Rick and Morty has an episode that includes a spoof of the Bechdel Test.

    Replies: @James O'Meara, @mark green

    Sergio Leone’s epic “Man With No Name” trilogy has no women characters that appear for more than a few seconds.

    It would not be inaccurate to say that women were assigned insignificant roles in many Westerns and virtually all war movies throughout most of the 20th century. America was free of racial quotas, feminism, and political correctness until the 70s.

    In addition to the Sergio Leone’s three ‘spaghetti’ Westerns (which starred Clint Eastwood), Lee Marvin and Eastwood appeared together in ‘Paint Your Wagon’. This singing Western co-starred Jean Seberg in an entirely forgettable role. Other big Westerns without female characters of any merit include ‘The Professionals’ as well as ‘The Magnificent Seven’. On television, there was ‘Bonanza’.

    On the war side, all-male casts were the rule. For instance, there was ‘The Dirty Dozen’, ‘The Longest Day’, ‘Pork Chop Hill’, ‘Paths of Glory’, All Quiet on the Western Front’, and ‘Attack’. These were all hyper-masculine, all-male (but entirely heterosexual) action films. The list goes on.

    Many, if not most, popular Westerns during the mid-20th century had only minor female characters. Blacks were absent in US films until the late 60s. Ditto for TV. Then the SCOTUS and the EEOC stepped in.

    Interestingly, the now-ubiquitous subject of unique Jewish suffering was absent virtually all American-made war films for the first 20 years following WWII. The term ‘The Holocaust’ had not even been injected into mainstream consciousness until a TV mini-series with that title premiered around 1980. The Judaized reinvention of the term ‘Holocaust’ did not exist until decades following WWII. Oddly, as we get further away from WWII, the Jewish aspect of that global catastrophe grows bigger.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @mark green


    Oddly, as we get further away from WWII, the Jewish aspect of that global catastrophe grows bigger.
     
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/03/holocaust-survivors-grandchildren-inherited-trauma

    Holocaust survivors' grandchildren call for action over inherited trauma

    Psychological impact of families constantly retelling stories of horrific events endured by relatives blighting lives of younger generation, says campaigner

    On the other hand .....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1iY7-69K7s

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwqKcH1Y0_g

    , @Joe Stalin
    @mark green

    In "The Good, The Bad and the Ugly," the skeleton in grave is that of a real woman actress.


    Well, guess not many of you guys know that Arch Stanton's skeleton was in fact the skeleton of a female...!
    For the scene at the Sad Hill cemetery, Sergio was looking for a real skeleton, not one of these rubber props.
    So set decorator Carlo Leva came to know that in Madrid a lady had a real skeleton for hire. It was her mother's (who in life had been an actress) skeleton and before she died, she expressed the wish that her skeleton should be used for movies, so that her acting career could continue after death..
    For those of you who speak italian:
    http://www.pellicolascaduta.it/wordpress/?p=864
    and also:
    http://www.p2pforum.it/forum/showthread.php?t=251532

    http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=7475.0
     
    https://youtu.be/aJCSNIl2Pls?t=99
    [1:39]

    Replies: @Ray P

    , @Farenheit
    @mark green

    Let's not forget "Kelly's Heroes", an action/war/comedy movie. I can't think of any woman speaking in that movie.

    , @Peter D. Bredon
    @mark green

    "On television, there was ‘Bonanza’."

    This reminds me that it used to be customary, almost a trope or meme, that sitcom dads were widowers. There was even a term, "sitcom widow" for the unfortunate woman who presumably was around long enough to birth two or three kids then expire: Bonanza, My Three Sons, etc. I don't think the writers were anti-motherhood so much as it gave a series the opportunity to occasionally have a potential love interest enter for an episode and then disappear, replaced by another, etc. Andy of Mayberry was so wholesome they simply had a permanent girl friend for both Andy and Barney.

    Seinfeld sort of had that idea too, with Jerry having a new girlfriend essentially every week (and all of them out of his league).

    The Brady Bunch took two such families and combined them. OTOH, Family Affair took it to the next level, killing off both parents off screen and having the kids live with "Uncle Bill."

    Replies: @black sea

  253. @Peter D. Bredon
    @Days of Broken Arrows

    You mean, of course, "pop" music. Well, I guess but... Fleetwood Mac? Heart?

    Arguably the greatest Rolling Stones track is Gimme Shelter due to Merrie Clayton's vocal.

    https://youtu.be/M9X0HCGNfyg

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon

    That’s an odd mix, not heard that before.

    I must say I love the opening of that track more than I love the rest of the track. Gorgeous guitar and vocals. Fair play to all concerned and especially Jimmy Miller whose idea it was a/c/t wiki to add female vocals.

    ‘I hear a girl on this track – get one on the phone.’

    Steve, btw, Thomas Hardy wrote a lot of short stories. All free on Gutenberg these days.

    https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/3058

    • Replies: @Peter D. Bredon
    @YetAnotherAnon

    This was new to me, found it when looking for a link to the song. Not so much a mix as a de-mix, I think someone has tried to isolate Mick and Merrie's vocals.

    "Get one on the phone." Yeah, I think it was the middle of the night, and they got hold of Merrie Clayton, and she really batted it out of the park; you can hear Jagger's "Whew!!" when her voice breaks on that high note.

    Scorsese used it twice and it seems to have become the official song of the 60s (except if the movie is set in VietNam, then it's something from the Doors), which seems appropriately apocalyptic, looking back, though everyone back then would have said the Beatles. Maybe it's just because the Beatles are so stingy with their licensing?

  254. @El Dato

    Normally it’s in period war movies or other isolated situations where historically only men would appear, but some examples are a little more egregious.
     
    The word "egregious" is egregiously misused in the modern times of trueblue mindrot.

    Master And Commander: The Far Side Of The World
     
    Actually, there was a lady of the shore looking for business in one scene.

    Although females on sailing ships make for interesting stories

    https://i.postimg.cc/SKsDYSZM/La-Fille-sous-la-dunette-p36.png

    Replies: @donut, @Allen, @Dissident

    Actually, there was a lady of the shore looking for business in one scene.
    Although females on sailing ships make for interesting stories.

    Such and similar themes are found in a number of the episodes of the masterful old time radio drama the Voyage of the Scarlet Queen.

    The word “egregious” is egregiously misused in the modern times of trueblue mindrot.

    When it comes to words that are widely misused, egregious would be far from alone.

    One thing that’s not overused, at least not here among the iSteve-atariat and other corners of Unzistan is

    [MORE]
    , if I may be so bold as to say it, the MORE! tag. Whether for a risque image (as in this case); for more than two or three images or videos even if completely innocuous; for text of inordinate length; or for considerably off-topic content of any type that is of more than minimal length, the MORE! tag is a simple, easy-to-easy use courtesy that is no doubt appreciated by many.

  255. @Gordo
    @Bardon Kaldian


    Feminist author Roxane Gay tweeted, “An all women remake of Lord of the Flies makes no sense because… the plot of that book wouldn’t happen with all women.”
     
    It wouldn't happen with all men either.

    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/may/09/the-real-lord-of-the-flies-what-happened-when-six-boys-were-shipwrecked-for-15-months

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    Thanks for a very good article. But:

    a) these guys were non-whites, Polynesians of a sort, I think

    b) Golding never implied that any all-young male marooned community would descend into savagery. Nor, I think, did most readers thought that.

    But the funniest thing about this real life story is this: The local physician later expressed astonishment at their muscled physiques and Stephen’s perfectly healed leg. But this wasn’t the end of the boys’ little adventure, because, when they arrived back in Nuku‘alofa police boarded Peter’s boat, arrested the boys and threw them in jail. Mr Taniela Uhila, whose sailing boat the boys had “borrowed” 15 months earlier, was still furious, and he’d decided to press charges.

    Bureaucratic mind. Astonishing.

    • Replies: @photondancer
    @Bardon Kaldian

    The Fijian boys were quite a bit older than Golding's fictional boys too, 16 rather than 12. Old enough to have a real grasp of consequences. Golding's boys know what they have to do but find it almost impossible not to be distracted and lose interest.

    All the same, a fascinating story that I'd never heard before. Thanks to Gordo for linking.

  256. @Anonymous

    I’m sure if I kept at it I’d figure out a lot about Melville’s influence on 20th Century authors. But then I got to the big gay part where the innkeeper of the Spouter Inn tells Ishmael there’s no room at the inn, unless he agrees to share a bed with a harpooner.
     
    Incidentally, this is the level of analysis that contemporary Critical Theory dominated university English departments and other "studies" departments engage in to claim so and so author, novel, historical figure, etc. in the past was really gay.

    We live in gay times today, so one has to be actively non-gay and strive to remove all doubts. But in the past during straighter times, it was perfectly normal for heterosexual men to do things that would be considered gay today, like room together in boardinghouses, share the same bed if they were poor, etc. If you go to gyms today, the really old geezers who grew up in less gay times change and walk around naked in the locker rooms, while younger guys are extremely paranoid and careful not to expose themselves. Bathhouses are exclusively gay in the US, but in Eastern Europe, Russia, Asia, they're normal places for heterosexual men.

    Replies: @Alden

    Literature studies and criticism always, always follow the current liberal thinking and propaganda. It can be amusing to follow a classic book through the different interpretations at different times.

    A great example is a Jane Austen book, Mansfield Park. It’s basically Cinderella gets her man. Heroine is a foster child raised by aunt and uncle and married their son, her cousin.

    First time I read Mansfield Park it was an edition published in the 1930s. The preface was just ridiculous Freudian nonsense.

    According to Fraudian theory the heroine married her cousin because she was really in love with her uncle/ father figure. The book made it clear the aunt and uncle were happily married. So fraudian theory held the uncle really loved the heroine romantically and sexually. His love for his wife was just sublimated feelings for the niece.

    Even at 12 I thought it ridiculous because the uncle had been happily married for at least 18 years before he even met the niece.

    Moving through prefaces and college classes, Jane Austen and her characters were just evil rich capitalist bitches. How dare Jane not mention the household help. Plus Austen wrote at a time when most people in Britain were starving oppressed slaves of the evil capitalist mine and factory owners or oppressed starving farm workers. Bad , bad Jane to not be a Marxist back in 1790-1815.

    Those English profs were probably all men marxists. Are there any other kind of college prof?

    Next up the feminazis discovered Jane Austen was a woman! Suddenly she and her books went from capitalist oppressors of the workers to feminazi crusaders. Jane and her characters were strong independent women, striving to make a life independent of men, banned from the joys of working. Total BS, worse than the fraudian interpretation. One character, Jane Fairfax trained as a teacher. She had to work for a living, a fate worse than death. But thanks be to God and all his saints and angels, she was saved at the last minute by marriage to a rich man. The real Jane was horrified that any middle class woman would have to work for a living instead of living off an inheritance trust fund father husband or in Jane’s case, brothers

    The latest interpretation is Jane Austen and her sister Cassandra were lesbians. Proof is they never married and lived with their mother. That’s what people did in those days, lived with family.

    Personal opinion is all college English literature courses be abolished and the profs sent to slave labor camps somewhere.

    I read Moby Dick when I was a kid. Loved every long complicated sentence. The best part was the historical details about the whaling industry ships, the town the ship sailed from everything about it.

    Moby Dick was based on a true event. Apparently by about 1700 the Atlantic whales became aware of the European and American whalers in the Atlantic. So they migrated to the Pacific. And became very hostile to ships. There were many instances of whales attacking not just the rowboats but even the ships. Ahah was based on a captain who’d been disabled in a whale attack on his ship. There’s a history channel show about it. Captain was Captain Pollard, shipmeas the Essex happened 1820s

    My favorite movies of all time are Bernie the Gerald Depardieu Cyrano and Mars Attacks. 12 Angry Men is just anti White pro Hispanic liberal propaganda.

    • Thanks: vhrm
    • Replies: @James O'Meara
    @Alden

    Nice rundown. It would be interesting to do a study of successive "scholarly introductions" to some classic. Frederick Crews did a whole book of such parodies, "The Pooh Perplex" (scholars dispute over The House at Pooh Corners).

    I've mentioned about Harold Beaver's 300 commentary in the old Penguin MD. I imagine the current one is postmodern or maybe gender-conscious. Beaver is actually pretty interesting and informative, though mad as a hatter.

    I love watching 12 Angry Men (the original of course) because it's a great omnium gatherum of great TV and movie character actors, some of whom went on to bigger fame (E G Marshall, even Jack Klugman), like a mashup of Twilight Zone episodes. But goddam what a sickening liberal wet dream. Henry Fonda in his white suit -- an architect, of course -- is every smug "college educated" liberal bleeding heart, and he gets to humiliate and ram his ideas down the throats of all those (mostly) working class losers. Everyone want to convict the kid, because they're racist (Ed Begley!) or hate their sons (Lee J Cobb) or just want to get to the ball game (Jack Warren). The whole thing is shot through with legal no-nos, and the idea of him leaving the courthouse, buying a switchblade and then bringing it into the jury room would land him in jail and bring about a mistrial. But as we know, when liberals do something, it's OK because they're always right in the end. Great time capsule of NYC though.

  257. @James O'Meara
    I only read through MD a couple years ago, when I got it on Kindle. I found that reading on an e-reader was much less exhausting than a big, thick hardcover (and paperbacks that size are totally unwieldy). The continuous text also helps get you into Meville's rhetorical flow. Maybe you should just skip ahead and start when Ahab arrives, because it really is a different book at that point (an example of where a character takes over a book or film). The climactic whale hunt really is a rhetorical masterpiece.

    As for the "gay stuff" you have to be careful, Steve. That's exactly the 19th century manners and rhetoric, on the basis of which some claim "Lincoln was gay" (same bedtime stories with his "roommates"); a very similar scene occurs in The Virginian, the archetypal cowboy book. As you say to the Wokesters, you can't have it both ways: either Ishmael is not gay, just frontier American, or else Lincoln, etc. are gay.

    The old Penguin English Library edition had 600 of text and 300 pages of commentary, from one Harold Beaver (yes) a professor of "American Studies" that highlighted every single possibly gay reference in the book, line by line. It's quite an achievement in academic monomania and inspired my own writing style.

    Replies: @Ray P, @Anonymous

    When they called Lincoln a ‘log-splitter’ it was nineteenth century gay slang?

  258. @Escher
    No sniggering comments about the name “Moby Dick” yet?

    Replies: @NickG, @Ghost of Bull Moose

    Queequeg, did you bring your harpoon to bed or are you just happy to see me?

    • Replies: @black sea
    @Ghost of Bull Moose

    Queequeg, when you say "sperm whale" that's not a euphemism for anything, is it?

  259. I’m not sure of the other qualifications to get on the list. Only the movies considered the best?

    Not listed, a B “The Eagle”. Two men, previously enemies, surviving in a wilderness filled with deadly native adversaries. So by today’s standards maybe gay. But by any other standard, manly men.

    The only women are girls ogling the primary hero (both men are heroic) in two different settings, and a crone making eating motions over a bowl of whatever when he is thrown into the slave women’s quarters.

  260. @Anon
    Horror fiction is an interesting case.

    There are no female characters in H.P. Lovecraft's Cthulu Mythos fiction. Perhaps that is one of the reasons why there was not been a major movie adaptation of At The Mountain of Madness.

    There have been female characters in horror fiction before Lovecraft, such as in Edgar Allan Poe's, and certainly in horror fiction after Lovecraft.

    I heard a theory, I think from a contributor to Pajamas Media, that a good horror movie has a hot actress. Examples of this theory:

    The Birds
    Psycho
    Don't Look Now
    Halloween

    Replies: @obwandiyag, @James O'Meara, @Ray P

    Does The Exorcist feature a ‘hot actress’?

    • Replies: @anon
    @Ray P

    Linda Blair when the character she played was not possessed.

    Replies: @Ray P

  261. @YetAnotherAnon
    @Dumbo

    "many men living without women around, some try to find alternatives"

    A pox on thee for a scurvy knave, can't ye wait til we make Liverpool?


    I spent the night with Angeline too drunk to roll in bed
    Me watch was new and me money too, in the morning with them she fled
    And as I walked the streets about, the whores they all did roar
    There goes Jack Spratt, the poor sailor lad, he must go to sea once more

    Once more, boys, once more, go to sea once more
    There goes Jack Spratt , the poor sailor lad, he must go to sea once more
     

    (If they all looked like Bechdel, I'd be happy with no women in films. What would be the point?)

    Dennis Dale - they do send women to Antarctica these days. "A World Of Men" by Wally Herbert is a great memoir of when they didn't, and had base leaders who could bend traffic signs or carry a full grown husky under each arm.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wally_Herbert

    "During the course of his polar career, which spanned more than 50 years, he spent 15 years in the wilderness regions of the polar world. He travelled with dog teams and open boats well over 23,000 miles – more than half of that distance through unexplored areas"

    Replies: @Ray P

    If they all looked like Bechdel, I’d be happy with no women in films.

    If they all looked like Bechdel, you wouldn’t notice.

  262. @Ghost of Bull Moose
    @Escher

    Queequeg, did you bring your harpoon to bed or are you just happy to see me?

    Replies: @black sea

    Queequeg, when you say “sperm whale” that’s not a euphemism for anything, is it?

    • LOL: Escher
  263. @Clyde

    I tried reading the Cliff Notes for Moby Dick for the first time during my junior year in high school. TLDR.
     
    https://www.amazon.com/Moby-Classics-Illustrated-Herman-Melville/dp/1906814376 ----- Classics Comics rendering gets good reviews. 9 ratings at Amazon.

    Replies: @James O'Meara, @Mike Tre

    I can’t find the clip, but who can forget Jake Taylor (Tom Berenger – who attended the same high school as my wife) reading the Moby Dick comic book in attempt to reclaim his former love (played by a somewhat homely looking Rene Russo)?

  264. @vhrm
    @HTT fan


    While the West abandons beauty, slice of life animes like K-On! carry the fire
     
    heh. i fear that it's just fantasy to cover the fact that they're even further down the path of atomization and alienation.

    ( hikikomori, record low marriage and fertility rates, etc...)

    no complaints about K-on though. It passes the Bechdel test. (are there even any guys in it at all?)

    Replies: @Pop Warner

    no complaints about K-on though. It passes the Bechdel test. (are there even any guys in it at all?)

    When I watched it I actually tried to count how many men and the number was very low. Since it was an all-girls school and they only interacted with one teacher you didn’t see any at the most regular setting. The only recurring male character I can think of is the clerk at the music store. And as for conversations about men or relationships, there are almost none. The only time relationship talk crops up in these types of anime is when the aging teacher gets ribbed for still being single

  265. Trying to imagine the Best movie via the Bechdel Test. I’m imagining a 3 hour movie about a long discussion between Annie Leibovitz and Susan Sontag about their Relationship. At the end Sontag expresses her desire to become a rabbi.

    • Replies: @anon
    @Ghost of Bull Moose

    Then Erika Jong walks in and tells them "You're wrong! You're doing it all wrong!"...

  266. @mark green
    @Harry Baldwin


    Sergio Leone’s epic “Man With No Name” trilogy has no women characters that appear for more than a few seconds.
     
    It would not be inaccurate to say that women were assigned insignificant roles in many Westerns and virtually all war movies throughout most of the 20th century. America was free of racial quotas, feminism, and political correctness until the 70s.

    In addition to the Sergio Leone's three 'spaghetti' Westerns (which starred Clint Eastwood), Lee Marvin and Eastwood appeared together in 'Paint Your Wagon'. This singing Western co-starred Jean Seberg in an entirely forgettable role. Other big Westerns without female characters of any merit include 'The Professionals' as well as 'The Magnificent Seven'. On television, there was 'Bonanza'.

    On the war side, all-male casts were the rule. For instance, there was 'The Dirty Dozen', 'The Longest Day', 'Pork Chop Hill', 'Paths of Glory', All Quiet on the Western Front', and 'Attack'. These were all hyper-masculine, all-male (but entirely heterosexual) action films. The list goes on.

    Many, if not most, popular Westerns during the mid-20th century had only minor female characters. Blacks were absent in US films until the late 60s. Ditto for TV. Then the SCOTUS and the EEOC stepped in.

    Interestingly, the now-ubiquitous subject of unique Jewish suffering was absent virtually all American-made war films for the first 20 years following WWII. The term 'The Holocaust' had not even been injected into mainstream consciousness until a TV mini-series with that title premiered around 1980. The Judaized reinvention of the term 'Holocaust' did not exist until decades following WWII. Oddly, as we get further away from WWII, the Jewish aspect of that global catastrophe grows bigger.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Joe Stalin, @Farenheit, @Peter D. Bredon

    Oddly, as we get further away from WWII, the Jewish aspect of that global catastrophe grows bigger.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/03/holocaust-survivors-grandchildren-inherited-trauma

    Holocaust survivors’ grandchildren call for action over inherited trauma

    Psychological impact of families constantly retelling stories of horrific events endured by relatives blighting lives of younger generation, says campaigner

    On the other hand …..

  267. @Peter D. Bredon
    @Known Fact

    "Heller’s work and the subsequent film failed to create a memorable female character (as much as I like Paula Prentiss)"

    Never understood why this movie was so underrated, even today.

    Replies: @Known Fact

    Catch-22 was brilliantly cast and produced, but also a little top-heavy with the pretentious cinematic techniques that made the early 70s so great but in this case it was just too much. There was a distanced, detached tone that didn’t catch the insanity of the book. MASH by comparison — and the two films were relentlessly compared — was an irreverent romp, and you didn’t need to have read the book.

    We read Catch-22 in high school (I’d already read it myself, and had to do it again in college lit!) and the class was really excited when the cast members for the movie were announced a few months later. Too bad it eventually bombed and disappeared.

    • Replies: @James O'Meara
    @Known Fact

    "and you didn’t need to have read the book."

    Though only a yoot, I had read the book beforehand, so I wonder if that made it easier to grasp (or 'grok' as one said back then).

    As for MASH I recall that the author was a true blue, Greatest Generation patriot, proud of his service, and had intended a gently comical memoir, and was horrified by the film (and TV show). So I guess not reading the book beforehand would be for the best.

    Replies: @Known Fact

  268. @I, Libertine
    @donut

    Das Boot. The only WW II flick that had me rooting for the Germans. It’s that good.

    Replies: @Gordo, @Peter Akuleyev

    Avoid the horrendous “re-Boot” German television produced last year. Imagine all the ways Woke culture would ruin that movie and you have the new version – hours of “action” on land with wives and sisters, wives saving Jewish refugees hidden by Partisans, men talking about their feelings, plenty of discussion about how Nazis are bad, etc. I didn’t stick around long enough to see if they had incorporated some brave African sailors from Namibia, but if they haven’t yet, I’m sure they will be there next season.

  269. @Bardon Kaldian

    I tried reading Moby Dick for the first time last week, but Melville’s facetious tone didn’t do anything for me.
     
    E.M.Forster was, I think, right about Moby Dick:

    Moby Dick is an easy book, as long as we read it as a yarn or an account of whaling interspersed with snatches of poetry. But as soon as we catch the song in it, it grows difficult and immensely
    important. Narrowed and hardened into words the spiritual theme of Moby Dick is as follows: a battle against evil conducted too long or in the wrong way. The White Whale is evil, and Captain Ahab is warped by constant pursuit until his knight-errantry turns into revenge. These are words—a symbol for the book if we want one— but they do not carry us much further than the acceptance of the book as a yarn—perhaps they carry us backwards, for they may mislead us into harmonizing the incidents, and so losing their roughness and richness. The idea of a contest we may retain: all action is a battle, the only happiness is peace. But contest between what? We get false if we say that it is between good and evil or between two unreconciled evils. The essential in Moby Dick, its prophetic song, flows athwart the action and the surface morality like an undercurrent. It lies outside words. Even at the end, when the ship has gone down with the bird of heaven pinned to its mast, and the empty coffin, bouncing up from the vortex, has carried Ishmael back to the world—even then we cannot catch the words of the song.
    ...............................
    The extraordinary nature of the book appears in two of its early incidents—the sermon about Jonah and the friendship with Queequeg.

    The sermon has nothing to do with Christianity. It asks for endurance or loyalty without hope of reward.
    ..........................
    I believe it is not a coincidence that the last ship we encounter at the end of the book before the final catastrophe should be called the Delight; a vessel of ill omen who has herself encountered Moby
    Dick and been shattered by him. But what the connection was in the prophet’s mind I cannot say, nor could he tell us.

    Immediately after the sermon, Ishmael makes a passionate alliance with the cannibal Queequeg, and it looks for a moment that the book is to be a saga of blood-brotherhood.

    But human relationships mean little to Melville, and after a grotesque and violent entry, Queequeg is almost forgotten. Almost—not quite. Towards the end he falls ill and a coffin is made for him which he does not occupy, as he recovers. It is this coffin, serving as a life-buoy, that saves Ishmael from the final whirlpool, and this again is no coincidence, but an unformulated connection that sprang up in Melville’s mind. Moby Dick is full of meanings: its meaning is a different problem. It is wrong to turn the Delight or the coffin into symbols, because even if the symbolism is correct, it silences the book. Nothing can be stated about Moby Dick except that it is a contest. The rest is song.

     

    Personally, my favorite Melville is Billy Budd, Bartleby & few other tales.

    Replies: @Bubba, @Kylie, @Gabe Ruth

    Very interesting comment by E.F. Forster on Moby Dick.

    I just reread Maurice last fall, after which I threw the book away (too many episodes of fainting and nosebleeds). I’ve only read Moby Dick once. But I consider a towering masterpiece. I was blessed in high school to have a teacher of Am Lit devote a semester to the study of the novel. It remains one of the most exciting times of my life.

    Frankly I like the world without women portrayed in the novel and don’t have any problems with the intense friendships between men in it. Same-sex friendships routinely involving sleeping together, effusively affectionate language, with the opposite sex being more or less marginalized at times, was a feature of nineteenth century New England’s culture, as anyone familiar with H. James’s novels would know.

  270. @mark green
    @Harry Baldwin


    Sergio Leone’s epic “Man With No Name” trilogy has no women characters that appear for more than a few seconds.
     
    It would not be inaccurate to say that women were assigned insignificant roles in many Westerns and virtually all war movies throughout most of the 20th century. America was free of racial quotas, feminism, and political correctness until the 70s.

    In addition to the Sergio Leone's three 'spaghetti' Westerns (which starred Clint Eastwood), Lee Marvin and Eastwood appeared together in 'Paint Your Wagon'. This singing Western co-starred Jean Seberg in an entirely forgettable role. Other big Westerns without female characters of any merit include 'The Professionals' as well as 'The Magnificent Seven'. On television, there was 'Bonanza'.

    On the war side, all-male casts were the rule. For instance, there was 'The Dirty Dozen', 'The Longest Day', 'Pork Chop Hill', 'Paths of Glory', All Quiet on the Western Front', and 'Attack'. These were all hyper-masculine, all-male (but entirely heterosexual) action films. The list goes on.

    Many, if not most, popular Westerns during the mid-20th century had only minor female characters. Blacks were absent in US films until the late 60s. Ditto for TV. Then the SCOTUS and the EEOC stepped in.

    Interestingly, the now-ubiquitous subject of unique Jewish suffering was absent virtually all American-made war films for the first 20 years following WWII. The term 'The Holocaust' had not even been injected into mainstream consciousness until a TV mini-series with that title premiered around 1980. The Judaized reinvention of the term 'Holocaust' did not exist until decades following WWII. Oddly, as we get further away from WWII, the Jewish aspect of that global catastrophe grows bigger.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Joe Stalin, @Farenheit, @Peter D. Bredon

    In “The Good, The Bad and the Ugly,” the skeleton in grave is that of a real woman actress.

    Well, guess not many of you guys know that Arch Stanton’s skeleton was in fact the skeleton of a female…!
    For the scene at the Sad Hill cemetery, Sergio was looking for a real skeleton, not one of these rubber props.
    So set decorator Carlo Leva came to know that in Madrid a lady had a real skeleton for hire. It was her mother’s (who in life had been an actress) skeleton and before she died, she expressed the wish that her skeleton should be used for movies, so that her acting career could continue after death..
    For those of you who speak italian:
    http://www.pellicolascaduta.it/wordpress/?p=864
    and also:
    http://www.p2pforum.it/forum/showthread.php?t=251532

    http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=7475.0

    [1:39]

    • Replies: @Ray P
    @Joe Stalin

    And Leone said she looked fat.

    The cinematographer replied: she's just big-boned.

  271. @Peter D. Bredon
    @Stan Adams

    People complain about "the modern world" but it's nice to be able to access not just a movie (or opera recording) but a scene here and there. It's an odd throwback to nickelodeons and and 3 minute 78s.

    Replies: @Stan Adams

    As much as we complain about current events – and there is much to complain about – we would do well to remember that, in many ways, we are the luckiest assholes who’ve ever walked the face of the earth. We are spoiled beyond imagination.

    Virtually all of the great literature, art, and music created throughout human history is available online, and most of it is free. From the Great Books to the Silly Symphonies, it’s all there.

    Despite the political turmoil, cultural chaos, and social malaise that characterize American life in 2021, and despite the malfeasance of the Internet monopolies, we are living in a technological utopia. It won’t last forever, so enjoy it while you can.

  272. @Steve Sailer
    @Anon

    True, but My Dinner With Andre is about the best movie imaginable that consists solely of nothing but two hours of inanely annoying hippie libtard blather.

    Replies: @James O'Meara, @Lot

    • LOL: MEH 0910
  273. @mark green
    @Harry Baldwin


    Sergio Leone’s epic “Man With No Name” trilogy has no women characters that appear for more than a few seconds.
     
    It would not be inaccurate to say that women were assigned insignificant roles in many Westerns and virtually all war movies throughout most of the 20th century. America was free of racial quotas, feminism, and political correctness until the 70s.

    In addition to the Sergio Leone's three 'spaghetti' Westerns (which starred Clint Eastwood), Lee Marvin and Eastwood appeared together in 'Paint Your Wagon'. This singing Western co-starred Jean Seberg in an entirely forgettable role. Other big Westerns without female characters of any merit include 'The Professionals' as well as 'The Magnificent Seven'. On television, there was 'Bonanza'.

    On the war side, all-male casts were the rule. For instance, there was 'The Dirty Dozen', 'The Longest Day', 'Pork Chop Hill', 'Paths of Glory', All Quiet on the Western Front', and 'Attack'. These were all hyper-masculine, all-male (but entirely heterosexual) action films. The list goes on.

    Many, if not most, popular Westerns during the mid-20th century had only minor female characters. Blacks were absent in US films until the late 60s. Ditto for TV. Then the SCOTUS and the EEOC stepped in.

    Interestingly, the now-ubiquitous subject of unique Jewish suffering was absent virtually all American-made war films for the first 20 years following WWII. The term 'The Holocaust' had not even been injected into mainstream consciousness until a TV mini-series with that title premiered around 1980. The Judaized reinvention of the term 'Holocaust' did not exist until decades following WWII. Oddly, as we get further away from WWII, the Jewish aspect of that global catastrophe grows bigger.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Joe Stalin, @Farenheit, @Peter D. Bredon

    Let’s not forget “Kelly’s Heroes”, an action/war/comedy movie. I can’t think of any woman speaking in that movie.

  274. In may areas of 19th century America when you travelled alone in the nineteenth century you were likely to share a bed. Lincoln, many times.
    As to Mellville, he had actual real sailing experince of the hardest order, which propted him to say he’d rather sleep with a sober canibal than a drunken missionary. And, he had slept with canibals, although of the female variety.

    • Replies: @Clyde
    @james wilson

    https://www.amazon.com/Lord-Darkness-Robert-Silverberg-ebook/dp/B015AADCAY/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=lord+of+darkness&qid=1611007961&s=books&sr=1-6

    Good fiction about cannibals in Africa along with stranded Europeans. Written by Robert Silverberg who 95% of time writes sci-fi.
    I guess he just had to get this out of his system.

  275. @Ghost of Bull Moose
    Trying to imagine the Best movie via the Bechdel Test. I’m imagining a 3 hour movie about a long discussion between Annie Leibovitz and Susan Sontag about their Relationship. At the end Sontag expresses her desire to become a rabbi.

    Replies: @anon

    Then Erika Jong walks in and tells them “You’re wrong! You’re doing it all wrong!”…

  276. Anonymous[564] • Disclaimer says:
    @James O'Meara
    I only read through MD a couple years ago, when I got it on Kindle. I found that reading on an e-reader was much less exhausting than a big, thick hardcover (and paperbacks that size are totally unwieldy). The continuous text also helps get you into Meville's rhetorical flow. Maybe you should just skip ahead and start when Ahab arrives, because it really is a different book at that point (an example of where a character takes over a book or film). The climactic whale hunt really is a rhetorical masterpiece.

    As for the "gay stuff" you have to be careful, Steve. That's exactly the 19th century manners and rhetoric, on the basis of which some claim "Lincoln was gay" (same bedtime stories with his "roommates"); a very similar scene occurs in The Virginian, the archetypal cowboy book. As you say to the Wokesters, you can't have it both ways: either Ishmael is not gay, just frontier American, or else Lincoln, etc. are gay.

    The old Penguin English Library edition had 600 of text and 300 pages of commentary, from one Harold Beaver (yes) a professor of "American Studies" that highlighted every single possibly gay reference in the book, line by line. It's quite an achievement in academic monomania and inspired my own writing style.

    Replies: @Ray P, @Anonymous

    As for the “gay stuff” you have to be careful, Steve. That’s exactly the 19th century manners and rhetoric, on the basis of which some claim “Lincoln was gay” (same bedtime stories with his “roommates”); a very similar scene occurs in The Virginian, the archetypal cowboy book. As you say to the Wokesters, you can’t have it both ways: either Ishmael is not gay, just frontier American, or else Lincoln, etc. are gay.

    People often say that strong affections between exclusive straight men were common in the past. But it only makes sense, if undoubtly straight men like Benjamin Franklin or Thomas Jefferson said and did the same with his friends.

  277. @Anonymous
    The first person Rambo spoke to was a woman. The mother of his buddy from the war he was tracking down.

    Replies: @Yngvar

    True, and the strong, independent black lady now made invisible was pretty important in setting off the movie. Shameful stuff.

  278. Two super British-themed flicks: The Hill (Sean Connery & Harry Andrews) & Guns at Batasi (Richard Attenborough & Jack Hawkins). No females in The Hill but prominent in Batasi (Mia Farrow).

    • Replies: @James O'Meara
    @dhmosquito

    I thought “Emperor of the North Pole” with Ernest Borgnine and Lee Marvin battling it out with hammers and chains atop a moving train, mentioned above, was the manliest movie, but "The Hill (Sean Connery & Harry Andrews) " may be nipping at its heels.

    As for Batasi, I'm OK with Mia Farrow being prominent.

  279. @Hapalong Cassidy
    “The Thing” is all the more remarkable for being a horror movie with no women. The endangerment of women is a big, some would say essential part of horror movies. Viewers are more likely to feel protective of.a female victim or protagonist than a male one.

    Replies: @al gore rhythms, @silviosilver

    By a strange coincidence I not only watched The Thing last week, but also pondered over the face that it was an all-male film.

    If there had been women in the film then a large chunk of the film would be about her being protected or in some way argued over. Having an all male cast means you can concentrate purely on the big issues inherent in that situation–the paranoia, and the threat to all life on earth. Likewise, women see conflict much more in personal terms and an honest female character would have to reflect that in the film. For men the conflict would be much more about trying to balance their various interests and responsibilities–to themselves, to the planet, etc, and that is just much more interesting in a film.

    I think the same principal applies to many of the films on the list.

  280. @Clyde
    @Anon


    Was Phil Spector the latest elderly Covid victim?
    https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-01-17/phil-spector-dead
    Weirdly I had just finished watching YouTube videos from the Wrecking Crew documentary where those ace studio musicians talked about how Spector made his records. Brian Wilson was hanging out in the studio crowd in all the photos.
     
    Jack Nitzsche was the genius behind Phil Spector. You can read his Wikipedia entry. I think Phil Spector was able to be a better front in LA due to being Jewish, while Nitzsche did much of the real grunt work and arranging for Phil Spector produced records. "Wall of Sound" and so on. Nitzsche also is on many Stones and Neil Young recordings. Nitzsche was tight with Sonny Bono who actually had one of his tunes recorded by the Rolling Stones. Bono - "She Said Yeah"

    Early Stones recorded in London, Chicago (Chess Rec), Los Angeles etc. Whenever they recorded in LA, during an American tour, Nitzsche was in the studio with them. Usually on keyboards of some kind

    Replies: @Anon, @MEH 0910

    Jack Nitzsche produced Graham Parker and the Rumour’s 1979 album Squeezing Out Sparks.

    Squeezing Out Sparks playlist:
    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLjO4QRS_y93N2XOG2RdS55baq86GsQE71

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squeezing_Out_Sparks#Background

    Whereas Parker’s previous albums were notable for their strong soul influences, with many prominent tracks and singles including a horn section, on Squeezing Out Sparks producer Jack Nitzsche favoured a rawer sound. Coincidentally, popular punk band the Clash were undergoing a reverse process, trying to expand their musical arrangements. Therefore, the Rumour’s rhythm and blues session players went on to record all the horn parts in the Clash’s third and praised record London Calling.

  281. @james wilson
    In may areas of 19th century America when you travelled alone in the nineteenth century you were likely to share a bed. Lincoln, many times.
    As to Mellville, he had actual real sailing experince of the hardest order, which propted him to say he'd rather sleep with a sober canibal than a drunken missionary. And, he had slept with canibals, although of the female variety.

    Replies: @Clyde

    Good fiction about cannibals in Africa along with stranded Europeans. Written by Robert Silverberg who 95% of time writes sci-fi.
    I guess he just had to get this out of his system.

  282. @Joe Stalin
    @mark green

    In "The Good, The Bad and the Ugly," the skeleton in grave is that of a real woman actress.


    Well, guess not many of you guys know that Arch Stanton's skeleton was in fact the skeleton of a female...!
    For the scene at the Sad Hill cemetery, Sergio was looking for a real skeleton, not one of these rubber props.
    So set decorator Carlo Leva came to know that in Madrid a lady had a real skeleton for hire. It was her mother's (who in life had been an actress) skeleton and before she died, she expressed the wish that her skeleton should be used for movies, so that her acting career could continue after death..
    For those of you who speak italian:
    http://www.pellicolascaduta.it/wordpress/?p=864
    and also:
    http://www.p2pforum.it/forum/showthread.php?t=251532

    http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=7475.0
     
    https://youtu.be/aJCSNIl2Pls?t=99
    [1:39]

    Replies: @Ray P

    And Leone said she looked fat.

    The cinematographer replied: she’s just big-boned.

  283. @Cool Daddy Jimbo
    I stopped at the same point of Moby Dick. Five pages of "do I get in bed with spear guy or not" was too much for me. And I'm probably a simpleton, but I absolutely hate the 18th century style of sentences broken only by commas, that never end, that go on and on, forever, it seems. If any of you guys invents a time machine I need to borrow it for a few minutes. I'm going back in time to meet Edward Gibbon. I'm going to grab him by the scruff of the neck and slap him back and forth while saying, "Short. Choppy. Sentences. Motherfucker."

    Replies: @Peter D. Bredon, @Polynikes, @Etruscan Film Star

    My feeling exactly as I read Proust’s In Search of Lost Time. Some sentences in it were like novels themselves, or the route taken by a cab-driving crook to run up the fare on the meter. Maybe a masterpiece like everyone says, but a comma-splice endurance test.

    • Replies: @Peter D. Bredon
    @Etruscan Film Star

    Check out Time Regained, a 1999 French film directed by the Chilean filmmaker Raúl Ruiz. Someone had the brilliant insight that the last vol. of In Search is a series of essentially "flashbacks" and if filmed (at it is short enough to be filmable) could do for a ISOLT (I just notice, Isolde?) film. It's pretty good on its own.

  284. @James O'Meara
    @Sioux County Guy

    Yes, indeed, that is the main theme, at least as Melville originally conceived (!) it. Contrary to some opinions above, MD could easily be taught as an epic of Wokism, and probably is if it's taught at all. Natives and slaves are idolized, Christian are all hypocrites (the Quaker ship owners) or fanatics like Ahab.

    The association of sexual deviance with idolatry (religious deviance, "heresy" is Greek for "choice") is the root of the Hebrew homohate. Pagan cultures may have deplored it but they never made it The Ultimate Sin, since creedal orthodoxy wasn't part of polytheism either. Hate homos as much as you want, but if you don't make what Assmann (!) calls The Mosaic Distinction, that move from J-C to paganism drains all the energy goes out of it.

    Replies: @Dissident

    Hate homos as much as you want,

    The actual view of Judaism in this area is considerably more complex and nuanced, as well as more humane, than your simplistic, tendentious characterizations would imply.

    First, Judaism does not define individuals based upon the nature or direction of their proclivities or lusts, whether sexual or any other type. Certain acts and behaviors, which are volitional, are proscribed, and those who knowingly engage in them are chastised. Individuals are not judged for mere feelings or desires that are involuntary (regardless of ultimate origin) but only on how they choose to respond to them.

    Beyond any of the specific prohibitions that various acts entail, any ideology, lifestyle or identity

    [MORE]
    based upon, or positively affirming any form of homoeroticism is incompatible with and antithetical to the heteronormative, procreative, traditional nuclear family that is the foundational core upon which Judaic life is built, centers around, and perpetuates.[1]

    While all forms of erotic carnal intimacy or arousal outside of the confines of sacred matrimony are prohibited and condemned, buggery[2] between males (at a minimum [3]) is singled-out for particular, especially severe censure and punishment.[3]

    The association of sexual deviance with idolatry (religious deviance, “heresy” is Greek for “choice”) is the root of the Hebrew homohate. [sic] Pagan cultures may have deplored it but they never made it The Ultimate Sin,

    Common misconceptions and claims to the contrary notwithstanding, it is atheism, denial of G-d, that is the ultimate evil in Judaism. Such abject heresy is worse than even idolatry or any of the other cardinal sins for which one must give his life rather than transgress. So fundamental is belief in G-d in Judaism, that Naḥmanides (c. 1174-1290) does not count it as one of the 613 numbered commandments found within the Pentateuch, but rather a prerequisite for all the others. As the Ramban (Naḥmanides) puts it, “There can be no commandments without a Commander.”

    NOTES
    [1] In fact, the home, more than the synagogue, is of primary priority in Judaism.

    [2] Buggery= anal penetration; the patently nocuous, inordinately disease-promoting travesty of treating an anatomical structure that is exclusively eliminatory in its function as if it were copulative.

    [3] There is a dispute among the rabbis whether the specific verses in Leviticus that speak of a man lying with another man as if he were a woman refer only to the specific act of buggery or include other forms of male carnal intimacy. Even according to those who maintain the former, the latter would still be strictly prohibited, they just would not qualify as capital offenses.

    Concerning capital punishment in Judaism, the following must be noted. While the practice did exist in ancient Israel while the Temple stood, the requirements that had to be met before it could be carried-out were so rigorous and difficult to meet, that only rarely was anyone actually executed.

    • Replies: @Alexandros
    @Dissident


    While the practice did exist in ancient Israel while the Temple stood, the requirements that had to be met before it could be carried-out were so rigorous and difficult to meet, that only rarely was anyone actually executed.
     
    Lol. This is why The Merchant of Venice is so brilliant. They shall make a thousand laws but nobody will follow them. To me that's all the Talmud is. One long mental gymnastic to get out of any law laid down by God.
  285. @Bardon Kaldian
    @Gordo

    Thanks for a very good article. But:

    a) these guys were non-whites, Polynesians of a sort, I think

    b) Golding never implied that any all-young male marooned community would descend into savagery. Nor, I think, did most readers thought that.

    But the funniest thing about this real life story is this: The local physician later expressed astonishment at their muscled physiques and Stephen’s perfectly healed leg. But this wasn’t the end of the boys’ little adventure, because, when they arrived back in Nuku‘alofa police boarded Peter’s boat, arrested the boys and threw them in jail. Mr Taniela Uhila, whose sailing boat the boys had “borrowed” 15 months earlier, was still furious, and he’d decided to press charges.

    Bureaucratic mind. Astonishing.

    Replies: @photondancer

    The Fijian boys were quite a bit older than Golding’s fictional boys too, 16 rather than 12. Old enough to have a real grasp of consequences. Golding’s boys know what they have to do but find it almost impossible not to be distracted and lose interest.

    All the same, a fascinating story that I’d never heard before. Thanks to Gordo for linking.

    • Agree: Dissident
  286. @Peter D. Bredon
    @SFG

    That's where HPL's "anti-semitism" comes from: dealing with Jewish editors.

    "Enough chin music, make with the tentacles already!"

    Seriously, read his comments on the editor of Weird Tales.

    Replies: @SFG

    I do remember that.

    Frankly I can’t get too worked up about it. It didn’t have any real-world effects apart from perhaps wasting Sonia Greene’s time, and if I start doing ideological inquisitions on every author I’ll have nothing to read.

    Though I was mostly kidding. I can’t really blame HPL for adhering to the aesthetic conventions of his time (and honestly he was aiming for a recondite antiquarianism), and besides, he had quite the imagination. Besides, we see eye-to-eye on a lot; things really have learned to walk that ought to crawl.

  287. @syonredux
    @SFG

    Ah, Lovecraft in Dunsanian mode, gorgeous stuff. Of course, for sheer verbal pyrotechnics, Clark Ashton Smith is hard to beat:


    On Zothique, the last continent on Earth, the sun no longer shone with the whiteness of its prime, but was dim and tarnished as if with a vapor of blood. New stars without number had declared themselves in the heavens, and the shadows of the infinite had fallen closer. And out of the shadows, the older gods had returned to man: the gods forgotten since Hyperborea, since Mu and Poseidonis, bearing other names but the same attributes. And the elder demons had also returned, battening on the fumes of evil sacrifice, and fostering again the primordial sorceries.
     

    Replies: @Peter D. Bredon, @SFG

    Clark Ashton Smith is criminally underappreciated IMHO. He needs his own RPG. I’m serious.

    • Replies: @syonredux
    @SFG


    Clark Ashton Smith is criminally underappreciated IMHO. He needs his own RPG. I’m serious.
     
    Wouldja settle for a D&D module?

    Castle Amber is a Dungeons & Dragons adventure module designed by Tom Moldvay. This was the second module designed for use with the Expert D&D set. The module is in part an adaptation of Clark Ashton Smith's Averoigne stories, and set in the fictional medieval French province of that name.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Amber_(module)
  288. There is a talking female part in “First Blood”. My magnificent wife reminded me of John Rambo’s encounter with his pals’ mother where she told Rambo he died from cancer.

    Not a nitpick.

  289. @Mr. Anon
    One thing noticeable from that list is that a lot of those movies are quite good. The Thing, The Great Escape, The Enemy Below, Sleuth, Glengarry Glen Ross, Master And Commander: The Far Side Of The World, Lawrence Of Arabia are all well above average.

    And - Sleuth? There are only 3 cast members (spoiler alert: actually just 2). Is it that surprising that it doesn't have any women in it.

    Why not mention every prison or submarine movie or just about every war movie: Papillon, The Shawshank Redemption, Escape from Alcatraz, Das Boot, Ice Station Zebra, Sink the Bismark, Tora Tora Tora, etc.

    Maybe they should make more movies without women.

    Replies: @MEH 0910

    Papillon (1973) had 2 women in the cast:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papillon_(1973_film)#Cast

    • Ratna Assan as Zoraima
    • Anne Byrne as Mrs. Dega (uncredited)

    [MORE]

  290. @mark green
    @Harry Baldwin


    Sergio Leone’s epic “Man With No Name” trilogy has no women characters that appear for more than a few seconds.
     
    It would not be inaccurate to say that women were assigned insignificant roles in many Westerns and virtually all war movies throughout most of the 20th century. America was free of racial quotas, feminism, and political correctness until the 70s.

    In addition to the Sergio Leone's three 'spaghetti' Westerns (which starred Clint Eastwood), Lee Marvin and Eastwood appeared together in 'Paint Your Wagon'. This singing Western co-starred Jean Seberg in an entirely forgettable role. Other big Westerns without female characters of any merit include 'The Professionals' as well as 'The Magnificent Seven'. On television, there was 'Bonanza'.

    On the war side, all-male casts were the rule. For instance, there was 'The Dirty Dozen', 'The Longest Day', 'Pork Chop Hill', 'Paths of Glory', All Quiet on the Western Front', and 'Attack'. These were all hyper-masculine, all-male (but entirely heterosexual) action films. The list goes on.

    Many, if not most, popular Westerns during the mid-20th century had only minor female characters. Blacks were absent in US films until the late 60s. Ditto for TV. Then the SCOTUS and the EEOC stepped in.

    Interestingly, the now-ubiquitous subject of unique Jewish suffering was absent virtually all American-made war films for the first 20 years following WWII. The term 'The Holocaust' had not even been injected into mainstream consciousness until a TV mini-series with that title premiered around 1980. The Judaized reinvention of the term 'Holocaust' did not exist until decades following WWII. Oddly, as we get further away from WWII, the Jewish aspect of that global catastrophe grows bigger.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Joe Stalin, @Farenheit, @Peter D. Bredon

    “On television, there was ‘Bonanza’.”

    This reminds me that it used to be customary, almost a trope or meme, that sitcom dads were widowers. There was even a term, “sitcom widow” for the unfortunate woman who presumably was around long enough to birth two or three kids then expire: Bonanza, My Three Sons, etc. I don’t think the writers were anti-motherhood so much as it gave a series the opportunity to occasionally have a potential love interest enter for an episode and then disappear, replaced by another, etc. Andy of Mayberry was so wholesome they simply had a permanent girl friend for both Andy and Barney.

    Seinfeld sort of had that idea too, with Jerry having a new girlfriend essentially every week (and all of them out of his league).

    The Brady Bunch took two such families and combined them. OTOH, Family Affair took it to the next level, killing off both parents off screen and having the kids live with “Uncle Bill.”

    • Replies: @black sea
    @Peter D. Bredon

    You could add "The Courtship of Eddie's Father" to that list.

  291. @YetAnotherAnon
    @Peter D. Bredon

    That's an odd mix, not heard that before.

    I must say I love the opening of that track more than I love the rest of the track. Gorgeous guitar and vocals. Fair play to all concerned and especially Jimmy Miller whose idea it was a/c/t wiki to add female vocals.

    'I hear a girl on this track – get one on the phone.'

    Steve, btw, Thomas Hardy wrote a lot of short stories. All free on Gutenberg these days.

    https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/3058

    Replies: @Peter D. Bredon

    This was new to me, found it when looking for a link to the song. Not so much a mix as a de-mix, I think someone has tried to isolate Mick and Merrie’s vocals.

    “Get one on the phone.” Yeah, I think it was the middle of the night, and they got hold of Merrie Clayton, and she really batted it out of the park; you can hear Jagger’s “Whew!!” when her voice breaks on that high note.

    Scorsese used it twice and it seems to have become the official song of the 60s (except if the movie is set in VietNam, then it’s something from the Doors), which seems appropriately apocalyptic, looking back, though everyone back then would have said the Beatles. Maybe it’s just because the Beatles are so stingy with their licensing?

  292. @Alden
    @Anonymous

    Literature studies and criticism always, always follow the current liberal thinking and propaganda. It can be amusing to follow a classic book through the different interpretations at different times.

    A great example is a Jane Austen book, Mansfield Park. It’s basically Cinderella gets her man. Heroine is a foster child raised by aunt and uncle and married their son, her cousin.

    First time I read Mansfield Park it was an edition published in the 1930s. The preface was just ridiculous Freudian nonsense.

    According to Fraudian theory the heroine married her cousin because she was really in love with her uncle/ father figure. The book made it clear the aunt and uncle were happily married. So fraudian theory held the uncle really loved the heroine romantically and sexually. His love for his wife was just sublimated feelings for the niece.

    Even at 12 I thought it ridiculous because the uncle had been happily married for at least 18 years before he even met the niece.

    Moving through prefaces and college classes, Jane Austen and her characters were just evil rich capitalist bitches. How dare Jane not mention the household help. Plus Austen wrote at a time when most people in Britain were starving oppressed slaves of the evil capitalist mine and factory owners or oppressed starving farm workers. Bad , bad Jane to not be a Marxist back in 1790-1815.

    Those English profs were probably all men marxists. Are there any other kind of college prof?

    Next up the feminazis discovered Jane Austen was a woman! Suddenly she and her books went from capitalist oppressors of the workers to feminazi crusaders. Jane and her characters were strong independent women, striving to make a life independent of men, banned from the joys of working. Total BS, worse than the fraudian interpretation. One character, Jane Fairfax trained as a teacher. She had to work for a living, a fate worse than death. But thanks be to God and all his saints and angels, she was saved at the last minute by marriage to a rich man. The real Jane was horrified that any middle class woman would have to work for a living instead of living off an inheritance trust fund father husband or in Jane’s case, brothers

    The latest interpretation is Jane Austen and her sister Cassandra were lesbians. Proof is they never married and lived with their mother. That’s what people did in those days, lived with family.

    Personal opinion is all college English literature courses be abolished and the profs sent to slave labor camps somewhere.

    I read Moby Dick when I was a kid. Loved every long complicated sentence. The best part was the historical details about the whaling industry ships, the town the ship sailed from everything about it.

    Moby Dick was based on a true event. Apparently by about 1700 the Atlantic whales became aware of the European and American whalers in the Atlantic. So they migrated to the Pacific. And became very hostile to ships. There were many instances of whales attacking not just the rowboats but even the ships. Ahah was based on a captain who’d been disabled in a whale attack on his ship. There’s a history channel show about it. Captain was Captain Pollard, shipmeas the Essex happened 1820s

    My favorite movies of all time are Bernie the Gerald Depardieu Cyrano and Mars Attacks. 12 Angry Men is just anti White pro Hispanic liberal propaganda.

    Replies: @James O'Meara

    Nice rundown. It would be interesting to do a study of successive “scholarly introductions” to some classic. Frederick Crews did a whole book of such parodies, “The Pooh Perplex” (scholars dispute over The House at Pooh Corners).

    I’ve mentioned about Harold Beaver’s 300 commentary in the old Penguin MD. I imagine the current one is postmodern or maybe gender-conscious. Beaver is actually pretty interesting and informative, though mad as a hatter.

    I love watching 12 Angry Men (the original of course) because it’s a great omnium gatherum of great TV and movie character actors, some of whom went on to bigger fame (E G Marshall, even Jack Klugman), like a mashup of Twilight Zone episodes. But goddam what a sickening liberal wet dream. Henry Fonda in his white suit — an architect, of course — is every smug “college educated” liberal bleeding heart, and he gets to humiliate and ram his ideas down the throats of all those (mostly) working class losers. Everyone want to convict the kid, because they’re racist (Ed Begley!) or hate their sons (Lee J Cobb) or just want to get to the ball game (Jack Warren). The whole thing is shot through with legal no-nos, and the idea of him leaving the courthouse, buying a switchblade and then bringing it into the jury room would land him in jail and bring about a mistrial. But as we know, when liberals do something, it’s OK because they’re always right in the end. Great time capsule of NYC though.

  293. @Known Fact
    @Peter D. Bredon

    Catch-22 was brilliantly cast and produced, but also a little top-heavy with the pretentious cinematic techniques that made the early 70s so great but in this case it was just too much. There was a distanced, detached tone that didn't catch the insanity of the book. MASH by comparison -- and the two films were relentlessly compared -- was an irreverent romp, and you didn't need to have read the book.

    We read Catch-22 in high school (I'd already read it myself, and had to do it again in college lit!) and the class was really excited when the cast members for the movie were announced a few months later. Too bad it eventually bombed and disappeared.

    Replies: @James O'Meara

    “and you didn’t need to have read the book.”

    Though only a yoot, I had read the book beforehand, so I wonder if that made it easier to grasp (or ‘grok’ as one said back then).

    As for MASH I recall that the author was a true blue, Greatest Generation patriot, proud of his service, and had intended a gently comical memoir, and was horrified by the film (and TV show). So I guess not reading the book beforehand would be for the best.

    • Replies: @Known Fact
    @James O'Meara

    Right, I remember finally getting around to reading MASH and was puzzled -- it had none of the irreverent vibe of the movie. Catch-22 on the other hand was required reading I think if you were going to make heads or tails of that film

    BTW your other comment, I didn't realize they had dragged the Mad Men cast into the 70s, It's cruel to force a character (or a rock group) into a strange decade where they just don't belong.

  294. @dhmosquito
    Two super British-themed flicks: The Hill (Sean Connery & Harry Andrews) & Guns at Batasi (Richard Attenborough & Jack Hawkins). No females in The Hill but prominent in Batasi (Mia Farrow).

    Replies: @James O'Meara

    I thought “Emperor of the North Pole” with Ernest Borgnine and Lee Marvin battling it out with hammers and chains atop a moving train, mentioned above, was the manliest movie, but “The Hill (Sean Connery & Harry Andrews) ” may be nipping at its heels.

    As for Batasi, I’m OK with Mia Farrow being prominent.

  295. @Etruscan Film Star
    @Cool Daddy Jimbo

    My feeling exactly as I read Proust's In Search of Lost Time. Some sentences in it were like novels themselves, or the route taken by a cab-driving crook to run up the fare on the meter. Maybe a masterpiece like everyone says, but a comma-splice endurance test.

    Replies: @Peter D. Bredon

    Check out Time Regained, a 1999 French film directed by the Chilean filmmaker Raúl Ruiz. Someone had the brilliant insight that the last vol. of In Search is a series of essentially “flashbacks” and if filmed (at it is short enough to be filmable) could do for a ISOLT (I just notice, Isolde?) film. It’s pretty good on its own.

  296. @SFG
    @syonredux

    Clark Ashton Smith is criminally underappreciated IMHO. He needs his own RPG. I'm serious.

    Replies: @syonredux

    Clark Ashton Smith is criminally underappreciated IMHO. He needs his own RPG. I’m serious.

    Wouldja settle for a D&D module?

    Castle Amber is a Dungeons & Dragons adventure module designed by Tom Moldvay. This was the second module designed for use with the Expert D&D set. The module is in part an adaptation of Clark Ashton Smith’s Averoigne stories, and set in the fictional medieval French province of that name.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Amber_(module)

  297. @James O'Meara
    @Anon

    "There are no female characters in H.P. Lovecraft’s Cthulu Mythos fiction. Perhaps that is one of the reasons why there was not been a major movie adaptation of At The Mountain of Madness."

    Well, pretty true but there's Lavinia Whately in "The Dunwich Horror." The recent film of the non-Cthulhu story "The Colour Out of Space" has a mother and daughter and is pretty good.

    Replies: @syonredux

    Well, pretty true but there’s Lavinia Whately in “The Dunwich Horror.”

    I can’t recall. Do we get any glimpses of the real Asenath in “The Thing on the Doorstep” before Ephraim Waite takes residence in her body?

  298. @James O'Meara
    @Known Fact

    "and you didn’t need to have read the book."

    Though only a yoot, I had read the book beforehand, so I wonder if that made it easier to grasp (or 'grok' as one said back then).

    As for MASH I recall that the author was a true blue, Greatest Generation patriot, proud of his service, and had intended a gently comical memoir, and was horrified by the film (and TV show). So I guess not reading the book beforehand would be for the best.

    Replies: @Known Fact

    Right, I remember finally getting around to reading MASH and was puzzled — it had none of the irreverent vibe of the movie. Catch-22 on the other hand was required reading I think if you were going to make heads or tails of that film

    BTW your other comment, I didn’t realize they had dragged the Mad Men cast into the 70s, It’s cruel to force a character (or a rock group) into a strange decade where they just don’t belong.

  299. Thank you for your interesting and well notated reply.

    In my now Amazon-banned first book, I explicitly denounced the “gay identity” which is a creation of the Left as part of its “coalition of the fringes” (what I called there “the rainbow wrecking crew”). I certainly agree in opposing any such “ideology, lifestyle or identity” as would deny or deconstruct heteronormativity on a social level. As Greg Johnson has pointed out, normativity does not entail taking a genocidal approach to deviations. Greek and Roman societies were certainly heteronormative but sufficiently accommodating to be constantly denounced by Jews as utterly degenerate (see the famous passage in Paul’s Romans 1).

    My contrast of Jewish and “pagan” societies is no more than what orthodox Jews themselves have proudly claimed from the Maccabees onward (as opposed to the Hellenizing Jews they also denounce). That they are an outlier does not mere that Greek or Roman society was one big SF bathhouse, although that’s what the ancient Jews would have you believe. I reject that false “either/or.”

    There is a thin line between “idolatry” and “atheism”; worshipping “idols” is a denial of the Sh’ma, “the Lord our God is ONE”. The Romans called the Christians “atheists” because they would not treat the emperor as a god. But if atheism is “the greatest sin” in Judaism, that would be odd since when I was an innocent goy growing up in the Midwest I thought “Jew” was a synonym for “atheist”.

    Regarding the home etc., Laurent Guyénot has written on this very site about the Jewish inability to understand love or spirituality as gentiles do, treating marriage as a crude affair of animal reproduction. This is connected with their horror of homosexuality; only “pagan” cultures have evolved a balanced approach.

    Treating love and marriage as being in the first instance about reproduction is a rather Judaic trait shared with many on the Right as well as the Third Reich. Not everything boils down to HBD or Aryan genes. The Ashkenazi who (supposedly) wisely bred their daughters to increase IQ and fortunes also failed to created love, romance, chivalry, feudal honor, and other Western ideals.

  300. Basically, women shouldn’t be in movies with men, because they look stupid. No, really. And she’s a woman.

  301. @Ray P
    @Anon

    Does The Exorcist feature a 'hot actress'?

    Replies: @anon

    Linda Blair when the character she played was not possessed.

    • Replies: @Ray P
    @anon

    Thank you Roman Polanski. What about Kubrick's The Shining?

  302. @Peter D. Bredon
    @mark green

    "On television, there was ‘Bonanza’."

    This reminds me that it used to be customary, almost a trope or meme, that sitcom dads were widowers. There was even a term, "sitcom widow" for the unfortunate woman who presumably was around long enough to birth two or three kids then expire: Bonanza, My Three Sons, etc. I don't think the writers were anti-motherhood so much as it gave a series the opportunity to occasionally have a potential love interest enter for an episode and then disappear, replaced by another, etc. Andy of Mayberry was so wholesome they simply had a permanent girl friend for both Andy and Barney.

    Seinfeld sort of had that idea too, with Jerry having a new girlfriend essentially every week (and all of them out of his league).

    The Brady Bunch took two such families and combined them. OTOH, Family Affair took it to the next level, killing off both parents off screen and having the kids live with "Uncle Bill."

    Replies: @black sea

    You could add “The Courtship of Eddie’s Father” to that list.

  303. @BB753
    @SFG

    Nowadays, young men seem accutely aware that older gay men might be hitting on them at any time, as it's homophobic not to be subjected to their courting.
    I don't look the part, but young straight men often shy away from me or display unease when I try to befriend them or when I am just being polite and making small conversation with them. Gays ruin everything. Male company, male friendship, male everything.

    Replies: @James O'Meara, @Marty, @Alexandros

    I can no longer be called a young white man, but from the time I was, every single encounter with a “friendly older man” turned out to be a faggot who wanted my ass (I assume). I’m not surprised to hear the younger generation adjusting.

    Also, every black man who ever approached me wanted money. And they wonder why there is such a thing as stereotypes.

    • Replies: @BB753
    @Alexandros

    Sad to hear that. Lacking inter-generational camaraderie, there goes society as a coherent entity!
    When I was a young man, I can only recall a couple of occasions where I was approached by an older man with hidden intentions. It used to be rare and pretty obvious.

  304. @Dissident
    @James O'Meara


    Hate homos as much as you want,
     
    The actual view of Judaism in this area is considerably more complex and nuanced, as well as more humane, than your simplistic, tendentious characterizations would imply.

    First, Judaism does not define individuals based upon the nature or direction of their proclivities or lusts, whether sexual or any other type. Certain acts and behaviors, which are volitional, are proscribed, and those who knowingly engage in them are chastised. Individuals are not judged for mere feelings or desires that are involuntary (regardless of ultimate origin) but only on how they choose to respond to them.

    Beyond any of the specific prohibitions that various acts entail, any ideology, lifestyle or identity based upon, or positively affirming any form of homoeroticism is incompatible with and antithetical to the heteronormative, procreative, traditional nuclear family that is the foundational core upon which Judaic life is built, centers around, and perpetuates.[1]

    While all forms of erotic carnal intimacy or arousal outside of the confines of sacred matrimony are prohibited and condemned, buggery[2] between males (at a minimum [3]) is singled-out for particular, especially severe censure and punishment.[3]

    The association of sexual deviance with idolatry (religious deviance, “heresy” is Greek for “choice”) is the root of the Hebrew homohate. [sic] Pagan cultures may have deplored it but they never made it The Ultimate Sin,
     
    Common misconceptions and claims to the contrary notwithstanding, it is atheism, denial of G-d, that is the ultimate evil in Judaism. Such abject heresy is worse than even idolatry or any of the other cardinal sins for which one must give his life rather than transgress. So fundamental is belief in G-d in Judaism, that Naḥmanides (c. 1174-1290) does not count it as one of the 613 numbered commandments found within the Pentateuch, but rather a prerequisite for all the others. As the Ramban (Naḥmanides) puts it, "There can be no commandments without a Commander."

    NOTES
    [1] In fact, the home, more than the synagogue, is of primary priority in Judaism.

    [2] Buggery= anal penetration; the patently nocuous, inordinately disease-promoting travesty of treating an anatomical structure that is exclusively eliminatory in its function as if it were copulative.

    [3] There is a dispute among the rabbis whether the specific verses in Leviticus that speak of a man lying with another man as if he were a woman refer only to the specific act of buggery or include other forms of male carnal intimacy. Even according to those who maintain the former, the latter would still be strictly prohibited, they just would not qualify as capital offenses.

    Concerning capital punishment in Judaism, the following must be noted. While the practice did exist in ancient Israel while the Temple stood, the requirements that had to be met before it could be carried-out were so rigorous and difficult to meet, that only rarely was anyone actually executed.

    Replies: @Alexandros

    While the practice did exist in ancient Israel while the Temple stood, the requirements that had to be met before it could be carried-out were so rigorous and difficult to meet, that only rarely was anyone actually executed.

    Lol. This is why The Merchant of Venice is so brilliant. They shall make a thousand laws but nobody will follow them. To me that’s all the Talmud is. One long mental gymnastic to get out of any law laid down by God.

    • Disagree: Dissident
  305. @Dennis Dale
    And if "The Thing" is gay I give up. They're in a friggin' research camp in Antarctica, ffs! We didn't used to send women on these things (do they now? imagine what problems they're having if they do). Great movie.

    No, Dennis, dumbass, you see, the men are invaded by the alien, become the alien...
    It's all a metaphor for gay grooming.

    Replies: @Peter D. Bredon, @silviosilver

    We didn’t used to send women on these things (do they now? imagine what problems they’re having if they do). Great movie.

    The 2011 remake had a couple of female characters. It wasn’t as good as the original (which I love), but still a decent movie that I’ve watched a few times.

  306. @Hapalong Cassidy
    “The Thing” is all the more remarkable for being a horror movie with no women. The endangerment of women is a big, some would say essential part of horror movies. Viewers are more likely to feel protective of.a female victim or protagonist than a male one.

    Replies: @al gore rhythms, @silviosilver

    Do people actually regard The Thing as a horror movie? That never even occurred to me. I’ve always thought of it as a pure sci-fi flick, much like Alien.

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
    @silviosilver

    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SciFiHorror


    Sci-Fi Horror is a sub-genre of both Science Fiction and Horror that uses scientific advances or futuristic settings as a source of fear.

    Notably, the first Sci-Fi genre work was also one of the first works in this sub-genre: Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, published in 1818.

    The broad variation of the parent genres allow for a multitude of ways this can play out: scientific advancements being used for evil ends or creating new, dangerous lifeforms; man's hubris leading to horrific consequences because of our reliance on technology; alien monsters menacing the characters; or the vast loneliness of outer space being a source of ontological dread, branching into Cosmic Horror Story and Space Isolation Horror.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_science_fiction_horror_films
  307. @anon
    @Ray P

    Linda Blair when the character she played was not possessed.

    Replies: @Ray P

    Thank you Roman Polanski. What about Kubrick’s The Shining?

  308. @TBA
    Lord of the Flies: a group of school boys stranded on an island. Obviously no women. Now, they hadn't quite reached puberty yet. If they'd stayed on that island until they did reach puberty - being English public school boys, and no girls around - there would have been a lot of buggery. An orgy of PC.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Dissident

    Lord of the Flies: a group of school boys stranded on an island. Obviously no women. Now, they hadn’t quite reached puberty yet. If they’d stayed on that island until they did reach puberty – being English public school boys, and no girls around – there would have been a lot of buggery.

    The boys’ killing of the sow is widely considered to be rife with erotic allegory.

    Incidentally, I came across the following piece of interest, from 2009:
    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2009/aug/16/william-golding-attempted-rape

    The Nobel laureate Sir William Golding, whose novel Lord of the Flies turned notions of childhood innocence on their head, admitted in private papers that he had tried to rape a 15-year-old girl during his teenage years, it emerged today.

    Golding’s papers also described how he had experimented, while a teacher at a public school, with setting boys against one another in the manner of Lord of the Flies, which tells the story of young air crash survivors on a desert island during a nuclear war.

    The revelations will appear in a forthcoming biography of the writer, who died in 1993 at the age of 81.
    […]

    It happened when he was 18 and on holiday during his first year at Oxford.

    Images below from
    https://bannedbooks386.wordpress.com/lord-of-the-flies-2/

  309. @silviosilver
    @Hapalong Cassidy

    Do people actually regard The Thing as a horror movie? That never even occurred to me. I've always thought of it as a pure sci-fi flick, much like Alien.

    Replies: @MEH 0910

    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SciFiHorror

    Sci-Fi Horror is a sub-genre of both Science Fiction and Horror that uses scientific advances or futuristic settings as a source of fear.

    Notably, the first Sci-Fi genre work was also one of the first works in this sub-genre: Mary Shelley’s Frankenstein, published in 1818.

    The broad variation of the parent genres allow for a multitude of ways this can play out: scientific advancements being used for evil ends or creating new, dangerous lifeforms; man’s hubris leading to horrific consequences because of our reliance on technology; alien monsters menacing the characters; or the vast loneliness of outer space being a source of ontological dread, branching into Cosmic Horror Story and Space Isolation Horror.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_science_fiction_horror_films

  310. I would have to say that Moby-Dick is one of the books/movies ripe for a remake hewing to the current orthodoxy concerning casting. Ahab should be a black man, the demographic most desirous of a chance to harpoon a white whale.

    • Replies: @Etruscan Film Star
    @Brutusale

    Not quite. Ahab should be a black woman, the demographic most desirous to capture a white (sperm) whale = white (sperm) male to dilute the melanin in her child farm. The literary symbolism is inescapable!

    , @JMcG
    @Brutusale

    Pure gold!

    , @Jim Don Bob
    @Brutusale


    Ahab should be a black man, the demographic most desirous of a chance to harpoon a white whale.
     
    From some of the black male white female couples I've seen, the harpooning has been going on for quite a while now.
    , @Anonymous
    @Brutusale

    To A White Girl
    I love you
    Because you’re white,
    Not because you’re charming
    Or bright.
    Your whiteness
    Is a silky thread
    Snaking through my thoughts
    In redhot patterns
    Of lust and desire.

    I hate you
    Because you’re white.
    Your white meat
    Is nightmare food.
    White is
    The skin of Evil.
    You’re my Moby Dick,
    White Witch,
    Symbol of the rope and hanging tree,
    Of the burning cross.
    Loving you thus
    And hating you so,
    My heart is torn in two.
    Crucified.

    ~ Eldridge Cleaver

  311. @Brutusale
    I would have to say that Moby-Dick is one of the books/movies ripe for a remake hewing to the current orthodoxy concerning casting. Ahab should be a black man, the demographic most desirous of a chance to harpoon a white whale.

    Replies: @Etruscan Film Star, @JMcG, @Jim Don Bob, @Anonymous

    Not quite. Ahab should be a black woman, the demographic most desirous to capture a white (sperm) whale = white (sperm) male to dilute the melanin in her child farm. The literary symbolism is inescapable!

  312. I visited Arrowhead, Melville’s home, a few years ago. I happened at the time to be reading through Moby-Dick (my second attempt since junior high, and this one, unlike the first, ultimately successful), and the tour guide confirmed my growing impression of Melville when he explained that Melville had named all of his horses ”Charley”.

    This key to understanding Melville, which almost all of his modern readers seem to miss, is that Melville was being funny. Bartleby, the Scrivener and his I and My Chimney are even clearer examples of his characteristic winking ironic silliness. His sense of humor is extremely dry, subtle, and intellectual, which is why most schoolboys miss it, but it is unquestionably present- observe the erudite and convoluted fart-joke in chapter one of Moby-Dick. That Melville’s family line was prone to an hereditary “melancholy”, a trait common to comedians, only adds further evidence to for the hypothesis.

    The “gay”-sounding scene with Queequeg in bed was quite intentionally absurd and comical, and if no other contemporary reader but myself has ever laughed out loud at it, I am quite positive that Melville did. Having spent most of my adult life deeply buried in old books and old philosophies, I find Melville’s famed masterpiece an absolute laugh riot, filled with wildly absurd metaphors, ironic understatement, and droll sarcasm- and when educated, urbane people today see you laughing at Moby-Dick in public, they generally stare like you have two heads.

    • Replies: @Dissident
    @Rapparee


    His sense of humor is extremely dry, subtle, and intellectual, which is why most schoolboys miss it,[...]
    [...]
    The “gay”-sounding scene with Queequeg in bed was quite intentionally absurd and comical,
    [...]
    I find Melville’s famed masterpiece an absolute laugh riot, filled with wildly absurd metaphors, ironic understatement, and droll sarcasm[...]
     
    Have you, I wonder, considered the possibility that Mr. Sailer, with his comments about Moby-Dick here, may have essentially beentrolling his readers?

    318 comments in and no one else has thought of this?


    and when educated, urbane people today see you laughing at Moby-Dick in public, they generally stare like you have two heads.
     
    Considering so much of what so many "educated, urbane people today" believe (or at least purport to believe)...
  313. @Stan Adams
    @obwandiyag

    You said it.

    I’m a huge Schwarzenegger fan. The Terminator, Commando, and Total Recall are all high on my list. But Last Action Hero is just plain boring. It’s as if someone watched Terminator 2 and said, “Hey, let’s make the John Connor brat even more useless and annoying!”

    It’s hard to rank my favorites, because I can never quite make up my mind. For classic cinema, I’d probably go with King Vidor’s ridiculous adaptation of The Fountainhead. For badly-dubbed anime, Locke the Superman. For teen slasher flicks, Scream.

    As I’ve said before, I tend to think in terms of favorite scenes. I could watch the entrance-to-the-desert scene from Lawrence in Arabia over and over again. I love the scene in Alien where Ripley escapes from the Nostromo; the scene in Prizzi’s Honor where Kathleen Turner and Jack Nicholson try to kill each other while Noche de Ronda plays in the background; the scene in Chinatown where Nicholson learns the truth about Faye Dunaway’s paternity; the scene in The War of the Roses where Turner’s husband Michael Douglas ruins her dinner party by pissing on the fish. Unless I happened to be in the mood, I would not necessarily want to watch any of those movies from start to finish.

    Replies: @Peter D. Bredon, @R.G. Camara

    But Last Action Hero is just plain boring. It’s as if someone watched Terminator 2 and said, “Hey, let’s make the John Connor brat even more useless and annoying!”

    Disagree. It was Arnold, still in his prime, being humorously meta about action movies, years before Scream started being meta about horror movies. Quite cutesty and clever in its own right, and had a great movie theme song (“Two Steps Behind” by Def Leopard) but it came out the same summer as Jurassic Park, and got killed by that juggernaut.

    Plus it introduced us to Bridget Wilson-Sampras in her young-20’s glory hotness.

    Plus, if you watch it now, in the post-COVID world, the closing old movie theater and empty seats pack a special punch. Just near me a Showcase cinema closed after nearly 70 years of operation. We are losing a lot in this mess.

  314. @Rapparee
    I visited Arrowhead, Melville’s home, a few years ago. I happened at the time to be reading through Moby-Dick (my second attempt since junior high, and this one, unlike the first, ultimately successful), and the tour guide confirmed my growing impression of Melville when he explained that Melville had named all of his horses ”Charley”.

    This key to understanding Melville, which almost all of his modern readers seem to miss, is that Melville was being funny. Bartleby, the Scrivener and his I and My Chimney are even clearer examples of his characteristic winking ironic silliness. His sense of humor is extremely dry, subtle, and intellectual, which is why most schoolboys miss it, but it is unquestionably present- observe the erudite and convoluted fart-joke in chapter one of Moby-Dick. That Melville’s family line was prone to an hereditary “melancholy”, a trait common to comedians, only adds further evidence to for the hypothesis.

    The “gay”-sounding scene with Queequeg in bed was quite intentionally absurd and comical, and if no other contemporary reader but myself has ever laughed out loud at it, I am quite positive that Melville did. Having spent most of my adult life deeply buried in old books and old philosophies, I find Melville’s famed masterpiece an absolute laugh riot, filled with wildly absurd metaphors, ironic understatement, and droll sarcasm- and when educated, urbane people today see you laughing at Moby-Dick in public, they generally stare like you have two heads.

    Replies: @Dissident

    His sense of humor is extremely dry, subtle, and intellectual, which is why most schoolboys miss it,[…]
    […]
    The “gay”-sounding scene with Queequeg in bed was quite intentionally absurd and comical,
    […]
    I find Melville’s famed masterpiece an absolute laugh riot, filled with wildly absurd metaphors, ironic understatement, and droll sarcasm[…]

    Have you, I wonder, considered the possibility that Mr. Sailer, with his comments about Moby-Dick here, may have essentially beentrolling his readers?

    318 comments in and no one else has thought of this?

    and when educated, urbane people today see you laughing at Moby-Dick in public, they generally stare like you have two heads.

    Considering so much of what so many “educated, urbane people today” believe (or at least purport to believe)…

  315. @Pat Hannagan
    Speaking of the high seas, adventure and sodomy, there's a fantastic 10 part series on Prime right now called The Terror. Using the real life story of Sir John Franklin's 1845 lost expedition to find a way through the Northwest Passage as inspiration, it gets Rotten Tomatoes aggregates of Critics 93% and Audience 87%. Obviously people love a realistic re-telling of the adventures of real men toiling against nature for the greater glory of God and mankind (with a sci-fi twist).

    With only 3 episodes to go I rate it easily in my top 10 TV series of all time. It brings to life what it must have been like in the fleets of the British Empire, then at its apogee. No matter what woke point one judges history any honest person must admire the British and their achievements on the sea and throughout the Commonwealth, such admirable people like Cook and the three here, Franklin, Crozier and Fitzjames.

    There were only 4 dissenting critics with one of them actually grading the series using all the woke metrics, including the Bechdel Test, thus proving your thesis.

    https://www.mediaversityreviews.com/tv-reviews/2019/6/22/the-terror

    Gender: 2.75/5
    Does it pass the Bechdel Test? NOPE, not once across all 10 episodes

    On account of this failure, the females all come across as realistic, interesting, admirable and develop the story on a human relatable level. The Esquimaux lady playing a pivotal role.

    It's not just rum, sodomy and the lash but it is that and more.

    Replies: @Pat Hannagan

    My God how good is this movie?

    This is-was the most inspiring life changing thing I’ve ever seen.

    I won’t post too much as I don’t want to ruin anything for the experience save the final two episodes take you to another clime.

    From In the Court of the Crimson King to this:

    That’s all I will say. I expect and hope this series will one day be the uplifting subject of a Tuesday morning Taki Mag piece.

    “Tell those who come after us not to stay. The ships are gone. There is no way through, no passage. Tell them we are gone.. dead.. and gone.”

  316. @Brutusale
    I would have to say that Moby-Dick is one of the books/movies ripe for a remake hewing to the current orthodoxy concerning casting. Ahab should be a black man, the demographic most desirous of a chance to harpoon a white whale.

    Replies: @Etruscan Film Star, @JMcG, @Jim Don Bob, @Anonymous

    Pure gold!

  317. @Brutusale
    I would have to say that Moby-Dick is one of the books/movies ripe for a remake hewing to the current orthodoxy concerning casting. Ahab should be a black man, the demographic most desirous of a chance to harpoon a white whale.

    Replies: @Etruscan Film Star, @JMcG, @Jim Don Bob, @Anonymous

    Ahab should be a black man, the demographic most desirous of a chance to harpoon a white whale.

    From some of the black male white female couples I’ve seen, the harpooning has been going on for quite a while now.

  318. Anonymous[329] • Disclaimer says:
    @Brutusale
    I would have to say that Moby-Dick is one of the books/movies ripe for a remake hewing to the current orthodoxy concerning casting. Ahab should be a black man, the demographic most desirous of a chance to harpoon a white whale.

    Replies: @Etruscan Film Star, @JMcG, @Jim Don Bob, @Anonymous

    To A White Girl
    I love you
    Because you’re white,
    Not because you’re charming
    Or bright.
    Your whiteness
    Is a silky thread
    Snaking through my thoughts
    In redhot patterns
    Of lust and desire.

    I hate you
    Because you’re white.
    Your white meat
    Is nightmare food.
    White is
    The skin of Evil.
    You’re my Moby Dick,
    White Witch,
    Symbol of the rope and hanging tree,
    Of the burning cross.
    Loving you thus
    And hating you so,
    My heart is torn in two.
    Crucified.

    ~ Eldridge Cleaver

    • LOL: BB753
  319. @Alexandros
    @BB753

    I can no longer be called a young white man, but from the time I was, every single encounter with a "friendly older man" turned out to be a faggot who wanted my ass (I assume). I'm not surprised to hear the younger generation adjusting.

    Also, every black man who ever approached me wanted money. And they wonder why there is such a thing as stereotypes.

    Replies: @BB753

    Sad to hear that. Lacking inter-generational camaraderie, there goes society as a coherent entity!
    When I was a young man, I can only recall a couple of occasions where I was approached by an older man with hidden intentions. It used to be rare and pretty obvious.

  320. @Bardon Kaldian

    I tried reading Moby Dick for the first time last week, but Melville’s facetious tone didn’t do anything for me.
     
    E.M.Forster was, I think, right about Moby Dick:

    Moby Dick is an easy book, as long as we read it as a yarn or an account of whaling interspersed with snatches of poetry. But as soon as we catch the song in it, it grows difficult and immensely
    important. Narrowed and hardened into words the spiritual theme of Moby Dick is as follows: a battle against evil conducted too long or in the wrong way. The White Whale is evil, and Captain Ahab is warped by constant pursuit until his knight-errantry turns into revenge. These are words—a symbol for the book if we want one— but they do not carry us much further than the acceptance of the book as a yarn—perhaps they carry us backwards, for they may mislead us into harmonizing the incidents, and so losing their roughness and richness. The idea of a contest we may retain: all action is a battle, the only happiness is peace. But contest between what? We get false if we say that it is between good and evil or between two unreconciled evils. The essential in Moby Dick, its prophetic song, flows athwart the action and the surface morality like an undercurrent. It lies outside words. Even at the end, when the ship has gone down with the bird of heaven pinned to its mast, and the empty coffin, bouncing up from the vortex, has carried Ishmael back to the world—even then we cannot catch the words of the song.
    ...............................
    The extraordinary nature of the book appears in two of its early incidents—the sermon about Jonah and the friendship with Queequeg.

    The sermon has nothing to do with Christianity. It asks for endurance or loyalty without hope of reward.
    ..........................
    I believe it is not a coincidence that the last ship we encounter at the end of the book before the final catastrophe should be called the Delight; a vessel of ill omen who has herself encountered Moby
    Dick and been shattered by him. But what the connection was in the prophet’s mind I cannot say, nor could he tell us.

    Immediately after the sermon, Ishmael makes a passionate alliance with the cannibal Queequeg, and it looks for a moment that the book is to be a saga of blood-brotherhood.

    But human relationships mean little to Melville, and after a grotesque and violent entry, Queequeg is almost forgotten. Almost—not quite. Towards the end he falls ill and a coffin is made for him which he does not occupy, as he recovers. It is this coffin, serving as a life-buoy, that saves Ishmael from the final whirlpool, and this again is no coincidence, but an unformulated connection that sprang up in Melville’s mind. Moby Dick is full of meanings: its meaning is a different problem. It is wrong to turn the Delight or the coffin into symbols, because even if the symbolism is correct, it silences the book. Nothing can be stated about Moby Dick except that it is a contest. The rest is song.

     

    Personally, my favorite Melville is Billy Budd, Bartleby & few other tales.

    Replies: @Bubba, @Kylie, @Gabe Ruth

    Thanks for the quote, it’s a book I could stand to read books about.

  321. @Known Fact
    @MEH 0910

    18 months with Cicely Tyson could turn anyone gay

    Replies: @MEH 0910

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