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How Gay Is Soccer?
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Like most male team sports: evidently, not very. A reader does some counting of top soccer players and writes:

I assume you saw that the opening day of the World Cup was taken up by a lot of media stories about European teams planning to wear a rainbow armband which they later backed down from.

The English media is really, really obsessed with finding a gay male soccer player willing to come out and has been for about ten years. The absence of said out gay players is toted as evidence of prejudice despite increasingly visible inclusivity attempts by the sport’s governing bodies. You can easily find stories about closeted players like this one who claim they are afraid of coming out due to resistance from fans or teammates. Former England star Gary Lineker says he knows of two. I’m sympathetic to the theory that coming out while playing could limit your career, but I would assume that this social pressure pretty much evaporates when your career ends in your early 30s. So I went looking for examples of ex-players who have since come out.
First, what’s the denominator? 1795 players have made more than 50 Premier League appearances since it was founded in 1992. The right tail is very long, 2523 players have made more than 25 appearances. I stopped clicking but there are easily >3,000 unique players who have made at least a single Premier League appearance. The average age of an active player today is 26, so I would estimate something like 2/3 to 3/4 of players who’ve ever made an appearance over the last 30 years are no longer active today. So we are looking at 2,000 or so ex Premier League players. Youngest ex-player is around 30 and oldest in his early 60s.
England is perhaps the world’s most gay-friendly place and anyone coming out is guaranteed a sympathetic media portrayal. So do gay players come out when they retire? It seems not. Google only finds me one ex-Premier League player who has come out after retiring, a player called Thomas Hitzlsperger. He only made 117 appearances in the Premier League and this would put him well outside the top 1,000 players by appearance.

So I’m increasingly sympathetic to your theory that whatever psycholocial traits make men highly interested in team sports make them highly heterosexual too. I looked up the top 20 players by Premier League appearances and checked wikipedia (mainly) to see what their marital status and number of children were. 19 of the 20 have been married and the one who hasn’t (Emile Heskey) has six children. It wasn’t clear whether Sylvain Distin has kids so I marked him down as zero but there is a story in French about him having had an affair. Jermain Defoe is also at zero kids but there seems to have been a paternity test involved. Six of the 20 (Giggs, Ferdinand, Defoe, Terry, Rooney, Distin) seem to have had some extra-marital stuff that the English tabloids dug up. So all-in-all guys who manage to sustain a career as a high-level soccer player seem very, very heterosexual. My casual knowledge of North American team sports is that you see pretty much the same pattern too.

Anyway I find occupational selection by sex, race, and sexual orientation quite interesting but you seem to be the only person who can write about it plainly. You are welcome to use any and all of this analysis. I will never publish it even pseudonymously!

 
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  1. anon[291] • Disclaimer says:

    If your Little League coach molests you at a tender age, you’re both turned queer and strongly put-off from playing sports.

    • Agree: Celt Darnell
    • Thanks: JimDandy
    • Replies: @G. Poulin
  2. anon[291] • Disclaimer says:

    Off-topic, but maybe people here know about this stuff.

    You’re aware of “regression to the mean”. I understand the concept with regard to statistics, but it’s regularly used in the context of IQ testing, and I’m not certain it’s appropriate. If Jimothy tests at 150 at 12, and 100 at 18, he has regressed to the mean – but how, exactly? It can’t merely be sampling error, since we’re sampling the same person twice.

    Option 1: his IQ peaked early, and, once his results are normalised among an older peer group, he comes out average. It’s like he reached his maximum height at a young age, which does happen – but do people regress to the mean height at the same frequency as they regress to the mean IQ?

    Option 2: IQ tests are unreliable, and you can get wildly different results from the same person on different days. (So why do we use them?)

    Option 3: ???

    Is there some mechanism by which one’s IQ regresses to the mean that I’m not thinking?

    Do people who test at low IQs ever experience the inverse – a significant increase in IQ between tests, an “acceleration towards the mean”, if you will?

    Your insights are greatly appreciated.

  3. anonymous[287] • Disclaimer says:

    sorta OT but just stumbled across a video embed of a Tigers-A’s game from 1987. Includes the gay Billy Bean, Sparky chewing out his pitcher, Ron Cey playing first base badly, and a Canseco home run. Al Kaline not much of a color guy.

    https://cococrispafro.com/author/cococrispafro/

  4. AndrewR says:

    I imagine there are a lot of bisexuals in soccer and all team sports. But when you’re legitimately attracted to women, there is less incentive to “come out” compared to exclusively homosexual men. Bi men can go out with the boys and naturally hit on (and take home) girls just as easily as straight men. They can happily marry women. They might feel the need to hide part of themselves, but it’s a smaller part than gay men.

  5. How Gay Is Soccer?

    Obligga tree, mate

    • LOL: megabar, BosTex
  6. Dream says:

    White people need to be more like Mizrahi and Sephardic Jews.

    • Thanks: ScarletNumber
    • LOL: silviosilver
    • Replies: @AnotherDad
    , @silviosilver
  7. Of course futbol is gay. Just ask coronavinus about the sodomy and fellatio involved. He knows everything.

    • LOL: Celt Darnell
    • Replies: @SunBakedSuburb
  8. Soccer is fabulously gay.
    It’s players not so much.

  9. Thomas hitlzesperger suffered no repercussions after coming out

  10. UK soccer is about as gay as US NFL, i.e. not very gay at all.

    Its non-gayness has been increased since large numbers of black players came into the leagues, as they are militantly heterosexual, perhaps overdoing it. At present a Manchester City player, Benjamin Mendy, and his alleged procurer are on trial for rape, though not all the evidence is compelling, and that’s the polite way of putting it.

    Lots of players have been charged with rape, although not all convicted in a criminal court.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Goodwillie#Rape

    “The court case began in August with the prosecution claiming that the Man City star, and his alleged ‘fixer’ Louis Saha Matturie, were sexual ‘predators’ and ‘monsters’, with one 19-year-old woman claiming both men had raped her.

    Mobile phone footage later emerged of her having ‘enthusiastic’ sex with Matturie on an occasion she claimed she was being raped. The judge ordered the jury to acquit both defendants on those charges.”

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11458423/Benjamin-Mendys-rape-trial-makings-good-drama-plot-twist-jurors-told.html

    Two black Manchester United players were allegedly “spit-roasting” pioneers back in the day.

    • Replies: @Feryl
  11. American soccer fandom is uniquely gay, though. It’s a lib signifier over here but nowhere else.

  12. anonymous[174] • Disclaimer says:

    Excerpts from the legendary ‘Why Are You Gay?’ interview from Uganda television’s ‘Morning Breeze’ show, 18 December 2012

    Wonderful Ugandan accent, unforgettable as he challenges, ‘You are gay … Why are you gae…?’

    Host is Simon Kaggwa Njala, ‘transgender LGBT rights activist’ is Pepe Julian Onziema, pastor Martin Ssempa appearing later

    ‘How Ugandan TV Personality Simon Kaggwa Njala Became A Viral Meme’
    https://www.capitalfm.co.ke/thesauce/how-a-ugandan-tv-personality-simon-kaggwa-njala-became-a-viral-meme/

  13. England is perhaps the world’s most gay-friendly place

    More than Yiddistan?

    • Agree: LondonBob
  14. All sportsball is gay. Especially Ukraine vs Russia sportsball.

  15. OT: Anti-Semitic thug behind plot of attack NYC synagogues is Jewish and cares for his grandfather who survived the Holocaust, his lawyer claims

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11453931/Anti-Semitic-thug-plot-attack-NYC-synagogues-Jewish-grandfather-Holocaust-survivor.html

    • LOL: Pop Warner
  16. How Gay Is Soccer?

    Less so than North American sports where finishing last doesn’t get you relegated, but the welfare check of a high “draft pick”, and your welfare arena is not even 20 years old, rather than 125 or so.

    Also, it’s less gay than Anderson Aldrich:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/chrisvanderveen/status/1595248511485767681?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1595248511485767681%7Ctwgr%5Ec024b33deb692c2da4fc151381414b8c85790693%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.unz.com%2Faanglin%2Ffaggot-shooter-was-white-what%2F

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  17. Altai says:

    Probably also have to factor in the massively over-estimation of the gay male population.

    Could it also be a class thing? Are gay men more likely to be born into the types of income brackets from whence professional athletes typically emerge? (Outside sports which are just horribly expensive to participate in for whatever reason)

    Finally it could also be a sense of alienation from groups of athletic heterosexual males itself making them more likely not to persist in sports irrespective of any other reason.

  18. J.Ross says:

    OT — After Correct The Record shills push the nonsense argument that “woke” is not ideology, but just good business sense (demonstrated by all the lost money), Elon stumbles across a closet at Twitter offices full of t-shirts for a forgotten Obama community organizing campaign.

    Update, apparently he deleted it.

    • Thanks: Muggles
  19. Feryl says:
    @YetAnotherAnon

    In the US at least, black males are gayer than white males. Let’s stop with the non-sense that black guys are “natural conservatives”.

    • Agree: Gordo
    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
  20. Morbid fun for you ghouls:

  21. Mike Tre says:

    The correct term is homosexual. You use the left’s terms and then wonder why they are winning the culture wars.

    • Agree: BB753
  22. Anonymous[365] • Disclaimer says:
    @AndrewR

    I imagine there are a lot of bisexuals in soccer and all team sports. But when you’re legitimately attracted to women, there is less incentive to “come out” compared to exclusively homosexual men. Bi men can go out with the boys and naturally hit on (and take home) girls just as easily as straight men. They can happily marry women. They might feel the need to hide part of themselves, but it’s a smaller part than gay men.

    Agree. It seems that Sailer thinks that sexuality is a white-black issue. But, it´s more nuanced. Many masculine men who are inclined to homosexuality are bisexuals. It’s only a question in which holes they like more. LOL
    So, masculine bisexuals don’t go to parades or gay discos. They prefer to masturbate or go to saunas sometimes. There are not compeling reasons for those men to say something about their private lives. Very few would say something about it. One example is Marlon Brando, which had a lot o women, but he said he had homosexual relationships. But people would never suspect, if he didn’t say about the issue.
    Moreover, I’m not so sure if the current Western culture is so accepting about homosexuality. In the media, arts or academia perhaps people are more open , but not between teammates on competitive sports or between blue collar workers.
    On many cultures of the past, for example the Greeks, Romans, ancient Japanese or Otomans, very masculine men were open about their homosexual inclinations. Because their cultures had virile homosexual cultures. The idea was to give all respect to the tops and nothings to the bottoms. The current Western culture don’t have a tradition on that type homosexuality. The current homosexual culture is centered on effeminate gays.

    • Agree: Veteran Aryan
    • Replies: @AnotherDad
    , @Reg Cæsar
  23. @Feryl

    I don’t think black people are natural conservatives, but if they are more gay than whites, the media are doing a pretty good cover-up job over here.

    I don’t think “straight” maps on to “conservative” much, if at all. Plenty of straights are keen on immediate gratification – it’s only female selectivity in this post-Christian Britain that stops straight men having gay-level partner counts. As the Boomers age, we’re starting to see STD outbreaks in retirement homes!

    Some of my favourite reactionaries are gay.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Starkey

    “On 30 June 2020, in a podcast interview with Darren Grimes, Starkey spoke about the Black Lives Matter movement. Starkey suggested that people should not “go on about” slavery because it had been abolished in 1833 and that “Slavery was not genocide, otherwise there wouldn’t be so many damn blacks in Africa or in Britain would there? An awful lot of them survived …”

    For which true statement he was immediately unpersoned.

    “Immediately afterwards, he resigned as an honorary fellow of his alma mater, Fitzwilliam College, had several honorary doctorates and fellowships revoked, book contracts and memberships of learned societies cancelled, and his Medlicott Medal withdrawn”

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    , @EricD
    , @Feryl
  24. eded says:

    Do highly athletic gay men tend to go into professional dance instead of competitive team sports?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  25. BB753 says:

    Superstar “French” soccer player Mbappe is dating a post-op trans-dudette. Does that make him gay? I guess so. Supermodel or not.

    https://www.sportskeeda.com/football/kylian-mbappe-girlfriend9

    Also, Cristiano Ronaldo has been rumored to be gay for many years.
    https://r9orlando.com/how-did-cristiano-ronaldos-son-die

  26. mc23 says:

    The question for the NHL is not how Gay they are but how Trans they are.

    Does the front office count?

  27. Rob says:
    @anon

    “Regression to the mean” should really be “regression toward the mean.” Anything you do is some combo of ability and luck. Let’s take your ability to flip a coin and get heads every time. That’s all luck. You will regress toward the average. If you got 4 heads on your first 4 flips, I’d check the coin, then I’d bet on you getting two heads and two tails on your next 4.

    But an IQ test is ability and luck. There were some questions you guess at. On average, you’ll get average results on guesses, but sometimes you’ll get all your guesses right. Do that and you’ll get a high score, but next time, your result will be lower, cuz the good luck goes away (well, on average, it’s average.

    Take a simple example. Basketball three throws. If we compete on it, you’ll get a lot more baskets than I will. That’s ability. But you won’t make every shot. That’s luck. If we give you a candy after every basket and an electric shock after each miss and analyze the effects on your shooting, we will discover that you tend to do worse after the candies and better after the electric shocks. But that’s just regression to the mean.

    • Replies: @anon
  28. Anonymous[206] • Disclaimer says:

    There appears to be a neo-Nazi element in soccer/World Cup. At least among the Ukrainian fan base:

    • LOL: mc23
    • Replies: @Hypnotoad666
  29. Rob says:

    On sports not being very gay, there’s a reason why guys will spend a couple of hours a day running around playing sports in school. That reason is girls. Gay men have random hookups that straight guys only have as rock stars… or pro athletes.

  30. Brutusale says:
    @Whereismyhandle

    This. In England your average soccer fan is the guy next door; in America it’s the spectator sport of spindly or porky neckbeards. This is because soccer is the be-all and end-all of youth athletic endeavors in the UK, where it lags behind the other major sports here, so the “real” athletes don’t play it as much as the guys who’ll never play a high school varsity sport.

    FWIW, the first gay pro athlete I remember coming out could pound the crap out of any pro soccer player.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gareth_Thomas_(rugby)

  31. @anon

    I thought “regression to the mean” was a generational thing.

  32. @AndrewR

    I imagine there are a lot of bisexuals in soccer and all team sports. But when you’re legitimately attracted to women, there is less incentive to “come out” compared to exclusively homosexual men. Bi men can go out with the boys and naturally hit on (and take home) girls just as easily as straight men. They can happily marry women. They might feel the need to hide part of themselves, but it’s a smaller part than gay men.

    Phoebe Buffay begs to differ.

  33. anon[291] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rob

    Cheers, but you just described my option#2. “Luck” = “unreliable, evens out with repeat testing”. How much luck variability is there with IQ tests?

    • Replies: @ic1000
  34. Ganderson says:

    I went to an MLS game this summer. The crowd reminded me of the quote from Seinfeld: “I love the opera- I feel so tough…” The MLS is pretty lame (mind you, I’ve never much cared for soccer) the crowd consists of fatties, neck beards and foreigners, the supporters clubs are artificially created, the names of the teams are faux European… I felt like punching a guy ( actually several guys) who referred to the field as the “pitch”. On the plus side, the crowd was nearly 100% white, although I’d imagine not many were ISteve readers. The team’s new stadium in St. Paul was nice- dunno who paid for it. Reg?

    And in World War T news, turns out Jeopardy super champ and newly crowned Tournament of Champions winner Amy Schneider is married… to a woman! Huh? Life just gets stupider and stupider. I was rooting hard for the Naval College guy or the plucky little Chinese kid, but alas, it was not to be.

    Any chance of spinning a conspiracy theory out of all this?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  35. William R says:

    Remember, of the ~576 current premiere league players (2022) only 44% are British or Irish.
    Players from other countries don’t necessarily consider liberal attitudes to homosexuality in the UK a reason to ‘come out’ during or after their careers as professional footballers.

  36. countenance says: • Website

    Professional soccer fandom in the United States has been converged by LGBTQ-BLT-BBQ-LOL and in some instances Antifa.

  37. Interesting piece of statistical work by the reader.

    As well as the players being pretty heterosexual, by today`s standards they get married young, have children young and have a reasonably good number too, as far as I can see (at least the white English ones do.)

    That might be another one for him (I sexistly assume it is a him) to look at.

  38. @Whereismyhandle

    American soccer fandom is uniquely gay, though. It’s a lib signifier over here but nowhere else.

    There’s really two kinds of U.S. soccer fans – ex soccer players who played in high school or college, or the hister/non-athlete type who is exhibitionist in his fandom of “futbol” and “the beautiful game” as a signal that he’s more sophisticated then your average American who likes American football. The former group is collectively not nearly as annoying as the second. A third group is just foreigners from multiple countries resident in the U.S. who have never assimilated and given up allegiance to the nations of their origins.

    One of the best things about the last time the World Cup came around was the annoying type of soccer fans trying to make a point that soccer is the real “football/futbol” and refusing to use the word soccer and having to be corrected that “soccer” is an British colloquialism for “Association Football” to distinguish it from “Rugby Football.”

    • Agree: Dnought
  39. I think Jermaine Defoe, contrary to the quoted comment, has at least 1 child. When he was playing for Sunderland FC I spotted him a couple of times dropping off a young boy at a prep school in Durham.

    The England soccer squad at the current World Cup may well have a significantly higher TFR than that for England as a whole, which was 1.52 last time I checked.

    Going through the players by number of children: Harry Kane (3), Jordan Henderson (3), Kieran Trippier (2), John Stones (1), Harry Maguire (2), Jordan Pickford (at least 1 by 2019), Kyle Walker (4 via different partners), James Maddison (1), Callum Wilson (2), Raheem Sterling (1), Phil Foden (2 already despite only being 22 years old), Mason Mount (recently had a daughter). Eric Dier and Aaron Ramsdale don’t have any yet but both recently got engaged. I couldn’t find much on a few of the remaining players. Jude Bellingham doesn’t have any but he is only 19. Keep in mind these are pro soccer players and the majority of the squad are therefore still in their 20s.

    Just as I suspected, the only people who can afford children in this country are the ultra wealthy and those on welfare.

    • Replies: @njguy73
    , @Steven Carr
  40. @eded

    Tommy Tune, a wonderful 6’6″ Broadway tap dancer who could have been a fine basketball player., liked to explain that backstage was his locker room

  41. G. Poulin says:
    @anon

    On the other hand, if your priest molests you at an early age, you’re both turned queer and strongly encouraged to pursue a priestly “vocation”. Grooming, I think they call it.

    • Replies: @anon
  42. anon314 says:
    @anon

    The main reason for regression towards the mean in IQ tests (at least when the testing interval is not too long) is measurement error. The less reliable a test is, the more there will be regression in a retest. The standard error of measurement, SEM, is:

    SEM = SD*sqrt(1-r)

    where SD is the standard deviation of the test and r is the reliability. Theoretically, the SEM is the standard deviation of the scores (around the true score) that an individual would obtain if he retook the test many times (assuming no practice effects). Confidence intervals can also be calculated. For example, if SD=15 and r=.90, 15*sqrt(1-0.9)*1.96=9.3, which means that 95% of obtained scores are within ±9.3 points from the true score. The reliability of an IQ test is mostly a function of its length–a theoretical, infinitely long test would have a reliability of 1 (see the Spearman–Brown prediction formula).

    The average amount of regression in a retest due to measurement error can be calculated, with the expected retest score being:

    M + r*(x-M)

    where M is the population mean, r is reliability and x is the obtained test score. For example, if M=100, r=.90 and x=150, the expected retest score is 100+0.9*(150-100)=145. The regression effect is symmetrical in the sense that very low scores will tend to become higher in a retest, while very high scores will tend to become lower. The expected amount of regression towards the mean is proportional to the original test scores’ absolute distance from the mean.

    If the testing interval is long, say many years or decades, other factors than reliability will probably have as much or more influence on the obtained IQs. For example, the heritability of IQ increases with age while the effect of the shared environment decreases, approaching 0 in adulthood. For example, at age 12, the shared environmental variance may be 20%, so if the quality of the causally relevant shared environment for an individual is 2 SDs above average, he will get an IQ boost of sqrt(0.20)*2*15=13.4 points at age 12. By age 18, the shared environmental variance may have gone to 0, meaning that the individual gets no boost and his position in the IQ distribution is now more strongly determined by his genes.

  43. njguy73 says:
    @Carlos Frenk

    Harry Kane (3), Jordan Henderson (3), Kieran Trippier (2), John Stones (1), Harry Maguire (2), Jordan Pickford (at least 1 by 2019), Kyle Walker (4 via different partners), James Maddison (1), Callum Wilson (2), Raheem Sterling (1), Phil Foden (2 already despite only being 22 years old), Mason Mount (recently had a daughter).

    That’s 22 kids, or 6 less than Calvin Murphy and Antonio Cromartie combined.

    • LOL: Bugg
  44. Arclight says:

    It seems to me most gay men who are athletic stay away from sports with physical contact – however, there are a lot of gay men in diving and equestrian disciplines. On the other hand, my local Crossfit gym does seem to have a fairly decent number of gay men and women, and the gay guys I know who go there take it pretty seriously.

    • LOL: Trinity
    • Replies: @cool daddy jimbo
    , @Trinity
  45. ic1000 says:
    @anon

    > Cheers, but you just described my option#2. “
    No.

    anon[291], a comments section on a post about soccer isn’t the most promising place to seek the answer to your question. Your writing indicates that you haven’t thought very deeply about “intelligence” or “testing for intelligence.” Are you looking for leads on background reading, so you can grasp the basics?

  46. @Mike Tre

    The correct term is homosexual.

    That’s impossible. Sex is “hetero” by its essence. There is no other kind.

    You are the slave of a defunct journalist.

    • Replies: @Mike Tre
  47. @Carlos Frenk

    It is also surprising that none of the ex-wives or ex-girlfriends of the England team have ever decided they could make some cash by selling stories of how their relationship was a sham and the player was in reality gay.

    • Replies: @VivaLaMigra
  48. @YetAnotherAnon

    Some of my favourite reactionaries are gay.

    There was a story in National Review (Jay Nordlinger, I think) about a group of US conservatives at a seminar of the like-minded in the UK. One of the Americans suggested that the whole “gay” trend was the doing of the Left.

    A local informed him that “All the poofters I’ve known have been high Tories!”

    • Replies: @BB753
  49. @anon

    Options:

    (1) Jimothy cheated at age 12.
    (2) Jimothy was tired of all the testing at age 18.
    (3) Jimothy began smoking weed at age 13.

  50. BB753 says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    Public schools and later “Oxbridge” turn most upper class Englishmen into homosexuals, bisexual or pedophiles. It’s certainly by design, Spartan-style.

  51. @Dream

    Call the ADL and I’m sure these people will be stripped of their jobs or bank accounts.

  52. @Anonymous

    It’s ok 365, you can come out now. This is a safe space.

  53. Brit says:

    Both Gary Linekar and your reader may be right.

    As a commentator and a one time top player Linekar is very well connected among British professional football players, and that world – particularly at the top – is already insanely closely connected. So Linekar will know well enough hundreds of ex professional players well enough to have been told – perhaps directly by them – that they are gay.

    So he could well know two, and perhaps heard reasonably credible rumours about a couple more.

    But this will be a fraction of a percentage of his group – which may not be that far off the fraction of a percentage among top professional football players.

    I think that part of this is that sports is high testosterone but also that it is intensely meritocratic. The favouritism that a semi secret and recently persecuted network can give you as gays have (and as non conformists had in England in the sixteenth to nineteenth centuries) can give you an advantage in politics or media where talent, or more importantly lack of talent, is not always evident. But in football lack of talent is quickly obvious and you will lose your job if you keep promoting dud players.

  54. @Arclight

    my local Crossfit gym

    How do you know someone does Crossfit? Don’t worry. He’ll tell you.

    • LOL: Trinity
  55. Trinity says:

    Soccer might not be gay but it is boring as hell.

    I remember there were rumors that a pretty good player who played in the late 80s – early 00s for an East Coast MLB team in the American League was a homersexual. So that limits it down to the Bosox, Yankees or Orioles. teehee. I taint telling.

    People in boxing had possibly known Emile Griffith was gay long before the documentary, “Ring Of Fire.” It was Benny Paret who taunted Griffith about his sexuality before their fatal fight. Griffith, never known as a devastating puncher would tee off on Paret in the 12th round with a flurry of punches. Paret slumped to the canvas. Paret would be carried out on a stretcher and he would never regain consciousness. He would die 10 days later.

    I believe Greg Louganis, the legendary diver was gay as well.

  56. @petit bourgeois

    “Of course futbol is gay.”

    As is American football. I played that spectacularly gay sport for five years. I sacrificed my knee and brain for a high school and the worst CSU on the planet. I’m not gay.

    “Just ask coronavinus about the sodomy and fellatio involved.”

    How can coronavinus be gay when he makes sweet love to Daria Albinger all day? I’m not gay.

  57. @anon

    It can’t merely be sampling error, since we’re sampling the same person twice.

    It is a question of sampling. You’ve picked a scenario where someone scores 100 in one sampling of his ability and 150 in another sampling. From that you can infer that his true ability is in-between those two numbers (prima facie, his ability = 125.) The more samples you take, the more likely the person’s ability is equal to the mean of all sampled scores. (Assuming the test is valid, of course)

    If the mean of many samples (i.e. his true ability) does, in fact, equal 125, then you can see how each successive sampling will tend to “regress toward that mean.” The next sampling after the outlier score of 150 will tend to be 25 points lower. The next sample after the 100 point outlier will tend to be 25 points higher. If you were to graph all these results, you’d eventually get a good old bell curve with a fat bunch of results around 125 in the middle, and thinning tails spreading out to 100 and 150, on the left and right respectively.

    Also notice that over time this person’s scores are “regressing to” (a better phrase would be “converging on”) his own personal ability of 125. Not toward some population-wide mean score of, say, 100. But the less you know about his personal ability, the more you can assume it is 100 — but only because the average person, on average, is pretty average.

    So if you don’t know anything about a person except the one data point that a single sample of his score is well above average you would be better off guessing that his next score is somewhere between that high score and the average. Each additional sampling gives more individual information, however. And then you can chuck the population average from consideration and just start using the average of his own scores as his relevant mean.

    BTW, Adding a change in age is just noise that confuses the question because the person’s underlying ability — i.e., the “mean” to which each successive sampling will tend to gravitate may have gone up or down as he ages.

    Empirically, I understand IQ scores are generally pretty stable over a lifetime for individuals. However, anecdotally, I have definitely noticed that some of the childhood tests (especially Stanford-Binet) seem to find that ever other private school child is a statistically improbable “genius.”

  58. @Anonymous

    Drawing silly mustaches on posters — including Hitler mustaches — is a time-honored, if somewhat juvenile tradition. Drawing a gap in the model’s teeth is also to be expected as well as thought bubbles saying “I am gay and retarded,” and the like.

    One assumes the risk when the poster is put up that a certain percentage of the population is Bart Simpson.

    • Agree: mc23
  59. @Dream

    Outstanding. I approve 100%. Let us all follow the Israeli example – they are, after all, a light unto the nations.

    (I wonder if any of the blacks in the vid thought to use Ye’s “blacks are jew also” approach. Would’ve been fun to see how that went down.)

  60. @Mike Tre

    The correct term is homosexual.

    Actually, the correct term is… ah, forget it, if anyone actually needs to be coached on this, it’s already too late.

  61. Any male involved in organized sports sees enough hairy asses in the locker rooms to be put off by the thought of gay sex. Besides, if you have even a minimum contract with any of the major American sports leagues, you make more than enough money to bag decent poon.

  62. @Steven Carr

    There’d have to be a pretty good paycheck being dangled to have a woman openly admit that she’d lost a man to gay sex.

  63. Trinity says:
    @Arclight

    ROTFLMMFWAO.

    MOST out of shape people always accuse a male who takes care of his body of being a homersexual. Now given the bodybuilding world has had some homersexuals but probably not much more than combat sports or football. Combat sports as far as females go has more homosexuals than any fitness endeavor. I don’t consider bodybuilding or cross-fit as a sport.

    A lot of guys who get into cross-fit played sports in school. Some played contact sports like football, or maybe wrestled or have a martial arts background. Some have done Olympic weightlifting before they got into cross-fit since the Olympic lifts are important in cross-fit.

    I don’t do cross-fit but I do know that out of shape guys love to hate on fit guys or good looking guys as being gay.Kind of like calling all jocks, “stupid.”

  64. This is actually pretty interesting. Thanks.

  65. EricD says:
    @YetAnotherAnon

    I find that African-Americans (I am not as sure about other blacks) don’t really correlate to a conservative-liberal continuum. What they tend to be is pro-black, and somewhat anti- everything else (but especially whites and Jews).

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  66. @Anonymous

    One example is Marlon Brando, which had a lot o’ women, but he said he had homosexual relationships

    Brando had an unrequited crush on childhood friend Wally Cox. Cox was a bodybuilder under the mousy façade. His ripped torso made a rare public appearance on Mission Impossible.

    On many cultures of the past, for example the Greeks, Romans, ancient Japanese…

    Or modern– see Yukio Mishima.

    …or Ottomans, very masculine men were open about their homosexual inclinations.

    Well, that gives a new aspect to its anciliary meaning as stool.

    This Ottoman is even called a Pouf on Amazon:

  67. Anonymous[154] • Disclaimer says:

    Drawing silly mustaches on posters — including Hitler mustaches — is a time-honored, if somewhat juvenile tradition

    Sure, try doing that in the U.S., along with writing “Sieg Heil” as these Ukrainian fans did. And see how this is seen as just a silly prank during your arraignment in federal court.

  68. Anon[215] • Disclaimer says:

    Soccer is gayer than Menudo circa 1985.

    Soccer is more queer than a football-bat

    Soccer is more homosexual than a male figure skaters stretch-fabric outfit with a ruffled collar, bell-bottom-pants, and feathered hat.

  69. Trinity says:

    Troy Aikman? Yusaf Mack? Both “contact sports”, one football, one boxing. I can list a few other boxers. I have already mentioned Griffith. Aikman is just RUMORS but there are allegedly tapes of Mack. This is for the poster that stated cross-fit guys are gay and they avoid contact sports. MMA females are loaded with lesbians, boxing as well. My gaydar goes off when I see one of the greatest male boxers ever. Not telling. hehe.

  70. I was thinking about something somewhat the opposite of this the other day.

    A surprising number of military figures have either definitely homosexual, apparently homosexual, or at least ambiguous sexually. Ernst Roehm, Claude Auchinleck, and Frederick the Great all come to mind. Siegfried Sassoon won the Military Cross. His English biographer delicately suggests that Kemal Ataturk liked the occasional boy. I vaguely recall that some famous French colonial proconsul type was homosexual.

    Odd that team sports would be the reverse, isn’t it? After all, warfare could be considered a team sport.

    • Replies: @BosTex
  71. drawbacks says:

    Compared to their age cohort in the general adult population, I suspect there are about 10 times more lesbians but at least 10 times fewer gay men playing competitive soccer.
    This may not apply in countries where there are social or governmental forces (e.g. sports scholarships) pushing adults into playing soccer. Also, some of the ‘lesbians’ are likely involved in relationships with team-mates but don’t generally prefer women to men.

  72. I have heard quite often from gays I trust that their lack of interest/ability to play sports as a youth was correlated with their homosexuality. In counter to that you get the occasional, “lookee over there, a gay guy who played high school ball. See, Bigot?”. Well yeah that was high school, a level at which genetic predisposition to sports can overcome that gay feeling (“do I want to fight my opponent or fellate him?”). Higher levels of sports … not so much.

  73. Wollzo says:

    Soccer is gay in the United States because it is supported by women who worry about their sons getting concussions from playing real sports and the limp, faggy men they call their partners. No American should give a shit about Association Football.

  74. @EricD

    ‘I find that African-Americans (I am not as sure about other blacks) don’t really correlate to a conservative-liberal continuum. What they tend to be is pro-black, and somewhat anti- everything else (but especially whites and Jews).’

    There’s an interesting question. Now I would say that blacks hate Asians most of all.

    • Replies: @anon
  75. @anon

    ‘…Do people who test at low IQs ever experience the inverse – a significant increase in IQ between tests, an “acceleration towards the mean”, if you will?’

    Logically, they must experience this. If IQ is a function of culture rather than genetic heritage, then merely immersing someone in the right culture would raise their IQ.

  76. Perhaps one reason the BBC and other British media have hyped women’s football so much is that most of the players look dykey.

    • Replies: @Matra
  77. The popular conception of a homosexual is an effeminate man. But there are two type of homos – tops and bottoms.

    I don’t think heterosexual men who are occasional tops consider themselves homosexual. Instead, they’re just screwing or getting a blow job from a man instead of a woman.

    • Replies: @Trinity
  78. PeterIke says:

    Soccer, schmoccer. But I was very pleased to see Japan’s uni-cultural all Japanese team beat the multi-cultural cesspool of the German team.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    , @anon
  79. I assume you saw that the opening day of the World Cup was taken up by a lot of media stories about European teams planning to wear a rainbow armband which they later backed down from.

    You say there is far more demand for white supremacism than supply. Well, there it is, staring everyone in the face, like the Emir himself.

    There were four countries represented on the pitch just now– Belgium vs Canada. From the lineups, don’t expect Dudley Do-Right vs Tintin. Heck, Canada’s squad looks like Tintin’s hosts in the Congo, what with seven blacks.

    Final score…

    [MORE]

    Belgium 1, Canada nil.

  80. Anonymous[160] • Disclaimer says:
    @Ganderson

    The quality of play in MLS is terrible. I’m not even a soccer fan, but on the rare occasions I catch World Cup or the elite Euro soccer leagues, I will see actual organized play where the players will be able to string together a sequence of passes and maintain possession long enough and have some sort of attack or shot on the goal. Mind you, even at the elite levels this is not that common in soccer games. But in MLS, it’s almost wholly nonexistent. Just a lot of disorganized kicking the ball around, constantly losing possession randomly to the other team. It’s like kids’ league soccer where the kids are kind of randomly kicking the ball around.

    • Replies: @Ganderson
  81. @PeterIke

    I was very pleased to see Japan’s uni-cultural all Japanese team beat the multi-cultural cesspool of the German team.

    Japan’s backup goalie is Daniel Schmidt. Still, the squad’s Japaneseness has been increasing over the years, in stark contrast to the West’s progression. Schmidt’s mother is Japanese, and he has lived in the country since the age of two.

  82. anon[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @PeterIke

    Germany is all black and Arab

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  83. Mike Tre says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    Provide what you see to be the correct term.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  84. Matra says:
    @Joe S.Walker

    More likely they’re just copying the US media (as usual) which pioneered the promotion of women’s football some 20 years ago. Having a lot of lesbians doesn’t hurt though with the present-day BBC.

  85. Feryl says:
    @YetAnotherAnon

    In both self-stated identity and self-stated behavior, blacks are gayer than whites at least in America and that’s not even getting into the Downlow issue. Blacks have higher HIV rates than whites and in America, HIV correlates mainly to two things: IV drug use and gay male sex.

    Celebrities in general are gayer and more effeminate than the general population. So yes, many of our “favorite” public figures are bound to be gay. And gays are slightly more intelligent than straights, especially in terms of verbal IQ*. This accounting for their high numbers in politics, law, and the media.

    *Gay males have very high levels of promiscuity and drug use, so although some rise to elite status as a general rule gay males tend to be a mess from every angle (physical, mental, financial, etc.) Look up Paul Cameron’s work about homosexuality and violence. Gay males are vastly over-represented among the ranks of violent deviants. Indeed, prisoners report high levels of gay sex BEFORE they go to jail/prison. So that would explains the sky high levels of gay deviancy behind bars. Gay males exhibit all the classic signs of psychopathy; Cameron notes a psychiatrist’s observation that gay patients tend to report high levels of anti-social behavior while narcissistically making excuses, chief among them that they were born into a victim class and they hate normies. Not unlike the classic street criminals rationalization that theft victims deserve what they get because they didn’t guard their property better. Blacks and especially gay males are not “conservative” in any natural sense of the term.

  86. Trinity says:
    @Jim Don Bob

    Top or bottom, gay for the stay or gay for pay = Homosexual.
    Any man that can achieve an erection much less shoot seed with another man is GAY.

  87. @Mike Tre

    Any one that isn’t a contradiction in terms.

    • Replies: @Mike Tre
  88. @anon

    Germany is all black and Arab

    No Turks?

    Canada is similar. It’s astonishing they are present at all. Their only previous appearance came in 1986, conveniently on their own continent, and was not only unimpressive, the squad was embroiled in a gambling scandal later that year.

  89. Curle says:

    If you need to know the sexual orientation of the men check out the women who are attracted to them, called WAGs in the UK. Here’s a recent headline grabbing bit of drama surrounding some WAGs.

    https://pagesix.com/2022/05/13/wagatha-christie-trial-everything-you-need-to-know/

  90. It is striking that there are extremely few homosexuals in men’s competitive sport while women’s sport are disproportionately, or mostly, lesbian.

    It would be strange to argue that sports culture is disproportionately welcoming to lesbians and exclusionary to male homosexuals. Rather it’s likely masculine characteristics make people both more interested in, and adept at, sports.

    I suspect the same is true for the military.

    • Replies: @Curle
  91. BosTex says:
    @Colin Wright

    Hey Colin-

    I think you are thinking of Marshal Lyautey:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubert_Lyautey

    The other famous homo is, of course, Louis Mountbatten aka Louis Mountbottom as his troops called him:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Mountbatten,_1st_Earl_Mountbatten_of_Burma

    His FBI file said that both he and his slattern of a wife were “persons of very low morals.” Read through the wiki and they are both disgusting people.

    Frankly it isn’t surprising that a few fags have reached the top of the military leadership pile given how broadly dispersed military service was during the 20th century: you call up millions of guys and there are bound to be a few fags in there.

    • Thanks: Colin Wright
  92. Kim says:

    Another interesting question may be how rapey is it, compared to other sports, like the NFL.

  93. anon[188] • Disclaimer says:
    @Colin Wright

    It’s only natural, Blacks are the racial opposite of Asians.

  94. anon[291] • Disclaimer says:
    @G. Poulin

    If that were true, they wouldn’t need to import priests from Poland and Vietnam. See the graph on page 3 of this report: seminary enrolment has cratered since at least the late 1960’s. It’s a shame the data doesn’t go back further, but it looks very much like huge numbers of people were dissuaded from the priesthood starting in the 60’s, which I believe is not long after the paedo priests became active.

  95. anon[291] • Disclaimer says:

    REGRESSION TOWARDS THE MEAN

    I want to thank everybody for replying to my off-topic comment. Regrettably, Ron only lets me comment thrice daily without a proper pseudonym, so I will have to agglomerate my responses. I hope the people I’m responding to manage to see this.

    I’ll add that I didn’t see an answer to what I considered the important question:

    Do people who test at low IQs ever experience the inverse – a significant increase in IQ between tests, an “acceleration towards the mean”, if you will?

    I left out the important part: does acceleration to the mean occur as frequently as regression to the mean?

    I think this question has a bearing on education for gifted and talented children, as you’ll see. (I’ve been reading articles by Miraca Gross, and stuff like this. Would welcome more insight on the topic.)

    TontoBubbaGoldstein

    I’ve seen academics use “regression to the mean” to explain why a child who outperforms their peers at one age will score in line with their peers at another.

    anon314

    Thanks. It looks like you ascribe it to a combination of option 2 and option 1, would that be fair?

    Some questions, if you don’t mind:

    1. How do they account for practice effects?
    2. How do they account for fatigue?
    3. Your Spearman-Brown tip leads to this nugget: “Test length must grow by increasingly larger values as the desired reliability approaches 1.0.” This suggests a maximum practical reliability. What is it?
    4. How “reliable” are IQ tests, on average? For that matter, how reliable are non-IQ standardised tests?
    5. You mention “very” low or high scores averaging out on retest: how common is it for unreliability/variance to be “very” wide of the mark? You get a 70 IQ kid testing at 130 by accident, or vice versa – does this happen? How often?
    6. Symmetrical regression: do anomalously high IQs regress to the mean as often as anomalously low IQs?
    7. Weird that environmental impact decreases with age. Shouldn’t it be increasing? The longer your life goes on, the more unique your environmental footprint, so to speak. Schools are as uniform as can be, being a baby is pretty limiting, etc.

    Thanks again.

    Yancey Ward

    1. I am assured by IQ research professionals on the internet that it’s impossible to cheat on these tests.
    2, 3. Sounds like Jimothy has become demoralised. But, as far as the system is concerned, he’s merely regressed to the mean, and his brilliance was only ever a mirage.

    Hypnotoad666

    You’ve picked a scenario where someone scores 100 in one sampling of his ability and 150 in another sampling. From that you can infer that his true ability is in-between those two numbers…

    I don’t think we can draw that inference at all. If he gets two different numbers from the same test on different days, either (a) he was different on each day, and the tests were fine, or (b) his IQ remained constant and the tests were unreliable on at least one of the days. Put another way: if the test got it wrong once, why not twice, or three times, or more?; if the results are erroneous, why would we assume the true result is part-way between two erroneous results? It may be true that in practice this is often the case, but that’s more a heurestic than a valid inference.

    I appreciate that I’m being pedantic here, and I accept that repeated testing will converge on a number reliably enough that we can take that number to be accurate. What would concern me would be tests that, regularly enough, spit out scores that diverge as widely as your example for the same individual. That would be a very unreliable test! But what happens to the kid with an IQ of x, who tests at significantly +/-x, and gets put in the wrong class? Or, more importantly – and what I’m concerned about – how many demoralised brainiacs are getting written off as having regressed to the mean?

    This is why the change in age is not just noise that confuses the question, it is an indispensable part of the question. Perhaps I should have clarified this initially, sorry.

    …anecdotally, I have definitely noticed that some of the childhood tests (especially Stanford-Binet) seem to find that ever other private school child is a statistically improbable “genius.”

    That’s interesting: I was just thinking that it’s very likely that close to 100% of schoolchildren are actually “geniuses”, in that they should be bumped up a year or maybe more, solely due to the dumbing down of education over the years (assuming no real IQ decline). We could test this hypothesis with a fat stack of cash, a few grad students, and a century or more of standardised tests. First, we quantify the difficulty of those tests using a single year (say 1900) as a reference point, i.e., we establish that the same test in 1999 was x% as difficult as in 1900. Then we see how many students got what marks on each year, and, with a bit of statistical mumbo-jumbo, we can establish that a% of b-year olds in year C would have got a D grade in 1900. I don’t think it’s controversial to say that kids used to be expected to tackle more difficult material at school. (Ctrl-F “Education is another example”.) Logically, either the kids these days are genuinely stupider, or they’re not being challenged at school like they used to.

    Colin Wright

    Logically, they must experience this. If IQ is a function of culture rather than genetic heritage, then merely immersing someone in the right culture would raise their IQ.

    Acceleration towards the mean ought to occur across ~50% of tests even if IQ were purely heritable. But I never hear anybody mentioning it: the phrase only gets trotted out when the bright-eyed ten year old has dropped out at 20. Have you ever heard of a certifiable idiot as a child scoring above-average at uni and having a highly successful professional career? (Diversity hires don’t count.)

    ic1000

    Steve is free to put the kibosh on the discussion or even delete the comments if he wants, you don’t need to police the internet for him. I’ll take “leads on background reading”; I’ll also take an explanation why Rob’s answer wasn’t just explicating my “option 2” in greater detail.

    • Replies: @Rob
  96. Mike Tre says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    Cop out. If you have no better term, your criticisms are invalid. The term homosexual has been the accepted clinical term for what? 100 years? Validated by people a lot smarter than you or me.

    Keep using the term gay if you wish, but don’t wonder why tranny big bird is trying to teach your 6 year old grand kids to have anal sex.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  97. Rob says:
    @anon

    Test-retest correlations for IQ tests are on the order of 0.8. A kid scoring 150 on a reasonably designed and administered test followed then 100 on another similarly well-done test is unlikely. It’d be like getting a perfect score on the PSAT and then scoring 990 on SAT. If there’s a gap that big, there’s probably a cause depressing the score the second time. We know it is not the reverse because scoring 150 is really rare.

    Is this an actual case that you know of, or just a made-up example? Oh, Asian IQ scores (relative to whites) decline with increasing age. This is not regression to the mean, though. Regression to the mean is a statistical phenomenon. It happens in literally any endeavor people engage in that requires ability but includes some element of chance, luck, or noise. An extreme result is a combination of ability and luck. Let’s say we have our basketball free throw contest. We throw ten times in each “test”. You average 7 baskets and I average three over 15 tests. Who is better? Obviously you are. But, you did not score 7 baskets in each test. Sometimes you scored 8, sometimes 9, but sometimes only five or six. The Asian IQ advantage disappearing with age is not statistical, it’s caused by differences in genes and (yes, lol it up) environment. Childhood IQ is somewhat malleable, though shared environmental influence on IQ goes to zero in one’s early twenties.

    Anyway, what happens when you hit nine baskets in a test? On average, you scored 7 baskets in the next test, cuz that’s your average. 7 is less than 10! You regressed toward your mean result. The same if you scored five baskets on that test. On average, you scored 7 baskets, so you regressed toward your mean.

    When people test kids for gifted and talented programs, one can see that there are incentives for psychiatrists to give kids high scores. There are probably tests for kids that give lots of outliers who get lower scores on better tests a few years later.

    Your “advancement to the mean” for low scorers happens (statistically) just as often as higher scorers regressing downward.

    One way to look at it as there’s an underlying bell curve of ability plus noise for everyone taking the test. If you score 80 on an IQ test, chances are your real IQ is above 80. Why? The curve of ability is thicker above 80 than below, so there are more people who just by dumb luck scored an 80 that’s a little lower than their real IQ than there are people with IQ below 80 who just by dumb luck scored a little higher than their real IQ.

    • Replies: @anon
  98. @Trinity

    MOST out of shape people always accuse a male who takes care of his body of being a homersexual.

  99. Wokechoke says:

    I watched a game of Hurling recently. It seems to incorporate all the improvements Sailer recommends to make Football Hockey etc better.

    It’s appeal outside Ireland hasn’t caught on off course.

  100. @Mike Tre

    Keep using the term gay if you wish

    I avoid gay except in common phrases. In serious Catholic circles, “people with same-sex attraction” is used. It gets right to the point, and is neither approving nor insulting. If you know of anything better than that, please clue us in.

    Homosexual, in contrast, is both dishonest and a surrender. Homo- (in the Greek sense) is the polar opposite of sexual.

  101. @Trinity

    MOST out of shape people always accuse a male who takes care of his body of being a homersexual.

    Or who simply tucks his shirt in.

  102. anon[291] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rob

    Thanks.

    Is this an actual case that you know of, or just a made-up example?

    It’s a hypothetical with regard to IQ tests so far as I know, but something common enough with regard to that which IQ tests are measuring, I think.

    When I read about high IQ children and gifted education and such, I always see this idea that certain children who test highly at a young age “regress to the mean”, and this is sufficient explanation for why these children haven’t lived up to their potential. But I never hear about stupid kids “accelerating to the mean” in equal number, which, as you point out, they should.

    Off-hand, I’d say at least half the brightest kids in my high school class never amounted to anything; but neither did the morons. Shouldn’t half of them have surprised everyone by succeeding?

    I suspect that the education system is much harder on high IQ kids than even the high IQ researchers realise, and I’m trying to figure out whether that’s correct.

    Another way to skin this cat: do kids in gifted education programs skew two-thirds or more male? Because if we were going solely off IQ, they should. But I don’t know. If they have an even ratio of males to females, then logically either they’ve got too many females or not enough males – I’d say the latter’s more likely, and then, where are all these high IQ males?

    Since I haven’t observed regression to the mean in equal number on either side of the mean, I don’t think it’s mere statistical variance, so I’m looking for other explanations. As I said, the explanations I could think of were that some children’s intelligence stops growing at an early age, much as their height might; or that IQ tests were much less reliable than I think.

    The commenters here have demonstrated that the tests are pretty reliable, so I think that’s less likely to be the cause. It’s possible my own observations are simply atypical – I’d love to see data if that’s the case. Or it’s possible that children do frequently stop getting any cleverer at some point – but then, how common is this? Does it happen more or less frequently than children maxing out on other axes? Again, if anybody has any data, I’d be grateful.

    I’d also be grateful if anybody knows of some other forum where I could give these questions more attention.

    When people test kids for gifted and talented programs, one can see that there are incentives for psychiatrists to give kids high scores.

    I can’t see that. Does the shrink get a commission?

    Without denying the existence of sharp-elbowed parents, I think the pressure is more in the other direction. Teachers and schools in particular are notoriously hostile to gifted kids, and generally disbelieving of parents who claim high IQ of their child. The little reading I’ve done supports this observation.

    I’m sure many people do cheat on IQ tests, but I think that’s a cultural thing – that is to say, a racial thing. I don’t think it invalidates IQ testing for gifted/talented programs.

    There are probably tests for kids that give lots of outliers who get lower scores on better tests a few years later.

    I do know that testing kids under 7 or 8 years old gives pretty unreliable results, but the gifted education types recommend it anyway. Many of those kids will score lower in the future – but apparently many will also score higher, not merely because of statistical noise but because a lot of IQ tests aren’t “powered” sufficiently to properly gauge the brains of the super-brainiac.

    Thanks again.

    • Replies: @anon
  103. anon[291] • Disclaimer says:
    @anon

    Another way to skin this cat: do kids in gifted education programs skew two-thirds or more male? Because if we were going solely off IQ, they should. But I don’t know. If they have an even ratio of males to females, then logically either they’ve got too many females or not enough males – I’d say the latter’s more likely, and then, where are all these high IQ males?

    Some stats on “gifted and talented” programs:

    US government “Civil Rights Data Collection”:

    2004 and 2006, public schools only – both years, male 47.4%, female 52.6%

    2017-18, all schools – male 49.9%, female 50.1%

    As I said: either they’re going easy on the chicks to be politically correct, or they’re squeezing out the dudes. (Likely both.) Men outnumber women at higher IQs, I believe roughly 2:1 above 130 IQ.

    While we’re at it, a quick eyeballing says that blacks and hispanics are overrepresented and whites are underrepresented, as Ron Unz’s Harvard stats would suggest.

    USA seems to have something in the order of 3 million gifted/talented students, out of 77 million students total. (Give or take a few million.) That’s approx. 3.9% of the student population, which seems to be (very roughly) everybody over 125 IQ (assuming normal distribution). However, gifted/talented programs include many people under that threshold – internet sez 115-129 = “mildly gifted”, plus that includes musical and dance talents and other such things, probably skewed by affirmative action too. If we can quantify IQ of kids in gifted/talented programs and account for diversity initiatives (and homeschooling), we can start to get a handle on how many high IQ kids are getting inappropriately excluded from gifted/talented programs. E.g., if a third of kids in gifted/talented programs are under 125 IQ, that’s like a million kids over 125 IQ who aren’t in gifted/talented programs. (Assuming I’ve crunched the numbers right…)

    Final thought: many highly intelligent boys drop out entirely, or become defiant, etc, etc. IQ distribution suggests boys should be in “special ed” classes more often than girls, which they are. But what if some of the high IQ kids are getting sucked in to the low IQ classes? I can’t find numbers for this, but…

    The CDC reported that in 2011–2013, 13.3% of boys ages 4–17 had ever been diagnosed with ADHD compared to 5.6% of girls.

    Assuming ADHD is a rough proxy for “learning disabilities” (i.e. low IQ) more broadly, that’s boys getting diagnosed with such at more than twice the rate as girls – which seems a little high. Below 70 IQ shouldn’t males be only twice as frequent as females, and less than twice as frequent up to just shy of 100?

    • Replies: @Curle
  104. Ganderson says:
    @Anonymous

    I don’t know enough about soccer to judge the quality of MLS play. I’ll take your word for it. I do know that very few players are developed by MLS clubs, (as opposed to, say the Swedish league) then move on to top European leagues. I assume as we become more and more third world that might change. Someone with more knowledge feel fre to correct me.

    I’ll second your major point, though; my main objection to soccer is not that it’s low scoring per se, but rather that very few goals are scored by moving the ball up the field, making some kind of play and getting a shot on goal. Goals are usually scored on set pieces. Now, granted, I’m a hockey fan, and to be fair I think hockey at the higher levels could use more goals, but there are many more scoring attempts in a typical hockey game.

  105. Feryl says:
    @Trinity

    Guys pre-occupied with their appearance are usually called vain, not gay. A lot of straight guys are vain, including the Bro idiots who live in gyms and do steroids and shave every inch of their bodies.

    On the other-hand, pencil-necks with lispy/breathy voices are usually thought to be gay. The data says that gay males are smaller, weaker, and do indeed “sound gay” (not just the lisp per se but they also speak with more precision than straight guys). It’s not surprising that they don’t take to sports well.

    One funny thing is that lanky nerdy/stoner type straight guys with long well styled hair are almost never thought to be gay*. Hesher bros and nerds are their own somewhat over-lapping culture that isn’t really gay or effeminate at all. These guys do tend to make fun of hardcore jocks as living a joyless grind, though the fitness bros get the most crap. Speaking as a hesher type myself, I grew up watching sports and being physically active, but never wanted to be a gym rat/fitness guru. Had I taken sports more seriously I would have liked to be a safety or a running back in football (and as one call tell from the amount of long-haired football players, football is pretty Dionysian in It’s appeal).

    *My understanding is that this was the case for those who grew up after circa 1985, when hippie and biker counterculture aesthetics basically were repurposed into mainstream 80’s heavy metal culture and 90’s “alternative” culture. Since I didn’t live through pre-1985 I dont know what the cliques exactly were or how they were received.

  106. Curle says:
    @anon

    “Assuming ADHD is a rough proxy for “learning disabilities” (i.e. low IQ) more broadly”

    https://www.additudemag.com/adhd-and-high-intelligence-iq-plus-attention-issues/

    https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/325715

    • Replies: @anon
  107. anon[291] • Disclaimer says:
    @Curle

    Thanks, but since we’re talking about rates of diagnosis it doesn’t need to actually be related to function as a proxy. Not that I’m saying it does function as a proxy.

    The question is, are there high IQ kids getting sucked into “special ed” classes instead of “gifted and talented” programs? We can infer the possibility by looking at sex ratios in retard classes and making assumptions about IQ in those classes.

    Alternatively we can read the articles you linked, which both suggest that high IQ + ADHD could lead to a child being “low functioning”, and therefore it’s perfectly possible that schools may not notice the high IQ, and that therefore some of the “missing” high IQ kids (read: boys) are in with the tards and the spazzers.

    Not sure whether this would happen often enough to worry about.

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