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Steven Spielberg shooting a fine Fabbri shotgun

Everybody assumes, logically enough, that attitudes toward guns are a central dividing line between Red State and Blue State America, and that Hollywood is Deep Blue.

Except … my impression from living around a lot of low level TV and movie industry grunts is that an awful lot of people in Hollywood, low and high, are crazy about guns, for ten reasons I suggested a couple of years ago.

It’s not surprising that the most prestigious Republican in the movie business, Clint Eastwood, directed the hit Navy SEAL movie American Sniper. But I hadn’t realized until researching my review in Taki’s Magazine that the property had originally been developed by the most prestigious Democrat in the movie business, Steven Spielberg.

If you Google

Spielberg guns

you mostly find dull articles about how when Spielberg reissued E.T. in 2002 he had the authorities’ shotguns digitally altered into walkie-talkies.

But if you dig a little more, it turns out that Spielberg is a lifelong passionate shooter, although it’s practically impossible to find a picture anywhere on the Web of Spielberg shooting a gun. Above is the only one I could find, from the “Clients” page of the Italian gunmaker Fabbri.

This website features photos of four satisfied customers: the King of Spain, Tom Selleck, Spielberg, and Spielberg’s old friend, the writer-director-wild man John Milius, screenwriter of Apocalypse Now and director of Conan the Barbarian, an alarming yet strangely central figure in the history of 1970s Hollywood.

Milius wrote for Eastwood the .44 Magnum speech in Dirty Harry:

I know what you’re thinking. “Did he fire six shots or only five?” Well to tell you the truth in all this excitement I kinda lost track myself. But being this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world and would blow your head clean off, you’ve gotta ask yourself one question: “Do I feel lucky?” Well, do ya, punk?

Spielberg and Milius were close friends from way back in the Seventies. From Joseph McBride’s book Steven Spielberg: A Biography:

The two Bobs [Zemeckis and Gale, future writers of 1941 and Back to the Future] began hanging out with Spielberg and Milius on Thursday nights at the Oak Tree Gun Club in the Newhall Pass north of Los Angeles. Milius had introduced Spielberg to the sport of skeet shooting, a male-bonding ritual for Milius and his fellow Hollywood gun enthusiasts. … Spielberg, who had learned to shoot from his father while growing up in Arizona, still visits the Oak Tree Gun Club. “He’s a darn good shot,” says club member Robert Stack, himself a world-class target shooter. “He has terrific reactions. Clay target shooting is a very subtle, highly sophisticated sport; it takes a lot of nerve. He shot some very good scores.”

Spielberg remains a devoted shooter. From a 2008 Vanity Fair profile of Spielberg’s protege / alter ego Shia LeBeouf:

LaBeouf owns just one gun, but he practically lusts over the collection owned by his Hollywood—and sport-shooting—mentor, Steven Spielberg. “He has the most ridiculous collection,” LaBeouf says. “He’s got a gun for every movie he’s made. He buys old Perazzi guns, Italian—beautiful, beautiful guns—and gets them engraved. It takes like a year. He’s got the Jaws gun; he’s got E.T. He let me shoot with the Jurassic Park gun. He just got his Saving Private Ryan back from the engraver’s.”

I doubt that Spielberg’s love of guns is an anomaly in Hollywood: guys who shoot movies often shoot guns as well.

For a little more on movie directors and guns, see my new review of American Sniper.

 
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  1. Hollywood has been celebrating war for as long as there has been Hollywood . War as a subject makes for a good story and the public is drawn to it. If people didn’t watch war movies Hollywood wouldn’t make them,.

    • Replies: @donut
    @grey enlightenment

    Yes and they go back and forth between antiwar and gung ho depending on which way the wind is blowing . Erich Maria Remarque one of their beloved spent 5 weeks at the front pulling his p*d before being wounded slightly and spent the rest of the war in hospital.
    Ernst Jünger on the other hand spent most of the war at the front and was wounded 7 times . And he thought war was" a work of transforming beauty" to borrow a phrase from some film critic.

    You can read his book "Storm of Steel " . Or check him out on wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_J%C3%BCnger.

    Replies: @Hippopotamusdrome

  2. I own three Mauser k98’s,two Italian Berettas with folding bayonets . A Luger, 3 Walther p38s and a Sig Sauer P232.

    I used to go to gun shows in Ohio w/ my grandfather back in the early 60’s . I bought my first Mauser for abt 35 $ . Can you imagine ? At a gun show in Columbus a guy had an mg-42 set up on his table.

  3. You had a nice list of 10, but how about one more: both Hollywood and guns produce lots of explosions.

  4. @grey enlightenment
    Hollywood has been celebrating war for as long as there has been Hollywood . War as a subject makes for a good story and the public is drawn to it. If people didn't watch war movies Hollywood wouldn't make them,.

    Replies: @donut

    Yes and they go back and forth between antiwar and gung ho depending on which way the wind is blowing . Erich Maria Remarque one of their beloved spent 5 weeks at the front pulling his p*d before being wounded slightly and spent the rest of the war in hospital.
    Ernst Jünger on the other hand spent most of the war at the front and was wounded 7 times . And he thought war was” a work of transforming beauty” to borrow a phrase from some film critic.

    You can read his book “Storm of Steel ” . Or check him out on wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_J%C3%BCnger.

    • Replies: @Hippopotamusdrome
    @donut

    Yes and they go back and forth between antiwar and gung ho depending on which way the wind is blowing .

    Also depending on whether or not the war is against a Communist country.

  5. Noblemen allowed weapons, serfs and slaves aren’t. Nothing significant here.

  6. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    OT Spielberg encounter…

    My wife and I were out visiting relatives in Santa Monica. We went to Mass (11:30 AM?) at Saint Monica’s (the one where Tom Brady got married). Afterward they were having a baptism. My wife and I were walking back to the courtyard gift shop and I happened to look into one of the opened side doors of the church. I told my wife, “Hey, the guy with the video camera filming the baptism is Steven Spielberg.” Obviously she was skeptical but confirmed it was Spielberg. I guess it was a family member or a close friend, because he was all beaming smiles as if it was his grandchild.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Anonymous

    "My wife and I were walking back to the courtyard gift shop and I happened to look into one of the opened side doors of the church. I told my wife, “Hey, the guy with the video camera filming the baptism is Steven Spielberg.”

    Spielberg, the great friend of Christians.

    Hasbara.

  7. An afternoon about 27 years ago stuck in my mind. I had the rest of the day free and I felt like watching a movie, so I opened the newspaper to the double page spread of picture ads. Every single ad had a gun in it, which I noticed because that wasn’t what I was in mood for but that was all that was being served that day. That was an unusually monolithic day, but not hard to imagine since there are so many movies featuring guns. Even if a movie industry person didn’t already start out with strong feelings about guns, pro or con, it would be hard not to come to either love or hate them after awhile.

  8. When I met my first wife, I’d just been shooting at some place out near maybe West Covina–Heyrmayer, or something like that? I’m sure it no longer exists. Anyway, thanks to my incompetence I was badly bruised, which maybe she dug…

    But the point is: on the day I was shooting there, as I was retreating through the main building after the humiliating performance, there was Robert Stack fully kitted out with the yellow glasses and everything. His presence did not make me feel any more competent.

  9. Sure, they like their guns. They just don´t like it when the wrong kind of people own them: country rubes, middle-class law-abiding Americans, Blacks and Hispanics. It´s a class thing, you see, like country clubs. Or free speech. Free speech is not for ordinary people either.

    • Replies: @Hippopotamusdrome
    @BB753

    They just don´t like it when the wrong kind of people own them: country rubes, middle-class law-abiding Americans, Blacks and Hispanics.

    Why add Blacks and Hispanics? Black and Hispanic gangs and guns are cool. Especially when they hold the gun sideways.

    Category:Hood films

    Colors
    Real gang members were hired as guardians as well as actors by producer Robert H. Solo. Two of them were shot during filming.
    Boyz n the Hood
    Menace II Society
    Juice
    It stars rapper Tupac Shakur and Omar Epps.
    CB4
    Belly 2: Millionaire Boyz Club
    Blood In Blood Out
    Get Rich or Die Tryin'
    Lost in the Hood
    Rappin'
    Ice-T's small role is uncredited
    Rollin' with the Nines
    Thug Life

    Replies: @BB753

  10. I always thought that Jews had a quasi religious dislike of killing animals for sport.

    • Replies: @donut
    @Anonymous

    They prefer Palestinians .

    , @Pangur
    @Anonymous

    Professional courtesy.

    , @Crawfurdmuir
    @Anonymous

    Anon. wrote: "I always thought that Jews had a quasi religious dislike of killing animals for sport."

    I wonder how connected with religion this really is, or if it is more a reflection of the collectivist and anti-Christian prejudices of eastern European Ashkenazic Jews living in a part of the world where hunting was a privilege of the Christian gentry and nobility.

    Upper-middle-class Jews in Britain often bought country estates and adopted the recreations of the landed class. Siegfried Sassoon's semi-autobiographical "Memoirs of a Fox-Hunting Man" is a minor classic of English literature. Several members of the English branch of the Rothschild family were enthusiasts of driven bird shooting.

    Replies: @slumber_j, @kaganovitch

    , @Karl
    @Anonymous

    >> I always thought that Jews had a quasi religious dislike of killing animals for sport.


    There's a hunting season on the Golan Heights, every year. It all gets eaten. Especially the wild boar. Israel has a (small) corps of Game Wardens.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

  11. I was walking out from an evening church service that ended at 10 PM. A few dozen men were in attendance. As I neared the door with my sons, two old fellows right behind me were talking together and I realized that one of them was a billionaire who is a member of our church. In the parking lot, I watched the two say goodnight, and the billionaire got into his car alone and drove away. I wondered what sort of personal security he used. Probably he was carrying a gun. Probably he carried some constantly transmitting GPS tracker that could quickly signal an alarm. Even with that, though, I marveled that I live in a country where an 80-year-old billionaire can function openly like a normal person.

    • Replies: @Jim
    @John Mansfield

    Compare the billionaire at your church with ordinary people in Brasil driving through red lights in broad daylight because it's too dangerous to stop. I've heard that many of the wealthy people in Brasil fly to work in helicopters because traveling on the ground is too dangerous.

    Replies: @donut, @Dumbo

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @John Mansfield


    … I marveled that I live in a country where an 80-year-old billionaire can function openly like a normal person.
     
    Who's gonna know he's a billionaire? Most are anonymous, especially those who, Puritan-style, play down their wealth. Drive a Buick, not a Caddy, as Paul Fussell described in Class.

    Replies: @Marty

    , @Dave Pinsen
    @John Mansfield

    There are billionaires in New York who ride bikes, walk, and take subways by themselves. And not only that - they broadcast their locations in real time via social media.

  12. @John Mansfield
    I was walking out from an evening church service that ended at 10 PM. A few dozen men were in attendance. As I neared the door with my sons, two old fellows right behind me were talking together and I realized that one of them was a billionaire who is a member of our church. In the parking lot, I watched the two say goodnight, and the billionaire got into his car alone and drove away. I wondered what sort of personal security he used. Probably he was carrying a gun. Probably he carried some constantly transmitting GPS tracker that could quickly signal an alarm. Even with that, though, I marveled that I live in a country where an 80-year-old billionaire can function openly like a normal person.

    Replies: @Jim, @Reg Cæsar, @Dave Pinsen

    Compare the billionaire at your church with ordinary people in Brasil driving through red lights in broad daylight because it’s too dangerous to stop. I’ve heard that many of the wealthy people in Brasil fly to work in helicopters because traveling on the ground is too dangerous.

    • Replies: @donut
    @Jim

    " driving through red lights" Way back in another life when I was sailing a shipmate told me about an experience he had when joining a ship in a shipyard in Redhook. He arrived at the airport and hailed a cab and said the "shipyard in Redhook". The cab driver wasn't thrilled but had to take him that being the law I believe . Anyway once they got to Redhook the cabbie wouldn't stop at any red lights as it was too dangerous. Later after he was on the ship some local just walked up the gangway w/ a gun and went from room to room robbing whom ever was on board.

    Also the Mayaguez , some of you might remember the Mayaguez incident , was in New Orleans and a gunman came aboard and robbed the capt. at gun point . Merchant ships carry a lot of cash to pay the crew cash advances and sometimes chandlers with. Better and more profitable than a 7/11 in case any of you are desperate for cash.

    , @Dumbo
    @Jim

    People in Brazil drive through red lights at night, but not during the day. It's bad but not all that bad all the time.
    Yes the rich will use helicopters or cars with bulletproof windows.

  13. How many firearms do you own Whiskey Betaman?

  14. Re liberal gun-lovers:

    The folks of http://www.bOINGbOING.net are pretty ardent gun supporters, which is strange because they are very anti-American, anti-religion, and anti-middle-class. After years of following their blog, I haven’t been able to square the circle, but it is interesting.

    In addition, Steve, you should check out the Morgan Spurlock YouTube video on a day in the life of Tim Ferriss. It features his trip to a shooting range in San Francisco, which I find incredible! Admittedly, Tim Ferriss likes publicity and going against the crowd, but I think there is an honest interest in guns there too. Also, how can the shooting range survive without other clients?

    Although I have spent my life on the East Coast of America and now am an expat, I think there are pro-gun sentiments that have been brewing in the “left-coast” culture for maybe decades. I think it could be the next frontier for the shallow people who have been hipsters. Knees too old to ride single-gear road bikes to work? No problem! You can form your identity around vintage handguns or somesuch.

    Two observations re Spielberg:

    (1) It’s easy to forget that he was a Boy Scout with enough fondness for his time in the Scouts to incorporate Scouting into the Indiana Jones trilogy. In these days of the Scouts being vilified for their anti-gay views, he has probably turned his back on them, but there was clearly a time when they represented “the good old days” for him. There is, of course, a shooting merit badge, and shooting is a big thing at Scout camps (at least, back when I was in Scouts), where many boys are exposed to rifles and gun safety for the first time.

    (2) When I was in university, I had a friend who was a Conservative Jew. He told me straight up that when the American Holocaust started, he expected me to be his personal Schindler. This was not presented out of arrogance or entitlement but desperation. it is important not to underestimate the level of paranoia. I am 99.9% sure that it has crossed Spielberg’s mind that he might have to shoot an anti-Semitic neo-Nazi white supremacist some day to save himself.

    • Replies: @snorlax
    @Chrisnonymous


    When I was in university, I had a friend who was a Conservative Jew. He told me straight up that when the American Holocaust started, he expected me to be his personal Schindler. This was not presented out of arrogance or entitlement but desperation. it is important not to underestimate the level of paranoia. I am 99.9% sure that it has crossed Spielberg’s mind that he might have to shoot an anti-Semitic neo-Nazi white supremacist some day to save himself.
     
    It just occurred to me that for all the lost love between them, Jews and Russians have a very similar worldview. Both are convinced that other Americans and Europeans are all secretly neo-Nazis who are plotting their genocide.
    , @JV
    @Chrisnonymous

    I'll square the circle for you. Us liberal gun enthusiasts are in favor of the right to own guns, enjoy shooting (and even hunting), but don't believe it's an unalienable right not subject to regulation. Speaking for myself, I'm in favor of a national gun registry (just like we register cars), a background check and a waiting period. I also like to shoot and on occasion, blow shit up in the desert. I don't see a contradiction there.

  15. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    I always thought that Jews had a quasi religious dislike of killing animals for sport.

    Spielberg is into skeet shooting, not hunting. From my experience, most above-average-IQ people (i.e, Jews, etc.) are not into hunting or killing animals. Jews in Congress get the highest approval ratings from HSUS, PETA, et al., for animal welfare issues. Jews trust dogs. Gentiles not so much.

    • Replies: @WhatEvvs
    @Anonymous

    I think Anon#1 is right - Jews do on the whole disapprove of this kind of hunting:

    https://www.thedodo.com/-kid-rock-kills-cougar-943386525.html

    That photo turned my stomach. Commercial hunting of animals that have already been hunted nearly to extinction makes me want to vomit.

    Hunting animals for food - no problem. Culling - same. If the animal is disturbed - ditto.

    But for blood sport - why? I don't see one good reason for this, other than twisted ego.

    Ted Nugent and Kid Rock used to be funny. Not anymore.

    Replies: @Lurker

    , @Chrisnonymous
    @Anonymous


    Spielberg is into skeet shooting, not hunting. From my experience, most above-average-IQ people (i.e, Jews, etc.) are not into hunting or killing animals.
     
    I think this is an accident of culture. You should The Omnivore's Dilemma's account of hunting. The author, who is quasi vegetarian, was shocked to discover thrilling hunting was.

    Jews and high IQ people tend to be urbanites nowadays, and with the Great Sort that is ever moreso. Urbanites don't hunt for logistical reasons, and their children develop stigmas about things related to nature like insects, dirt, and death.

    , @Stan Adams
    @Anonymous

    Many top Nazis, including Hitler, were ardent animal-rights advocates. Himmler wanted to ban hunting entirely.

    "That's the one thing you have to remember about WASPs: they love animals and hate people." - Gordon Gekko, ambiguously Jewish financier, commenting on non-ambiguously non-Jewish people

  16. @Jim
    @John Mansfield

    Compare the billionaire at your church with ordinary people in Brasil driving through red lights in broad daylight because it's too dangerous to stop. I've heard that many of the wealthy people in Brasil fly to work in helicopters because traveling on the ground is too dangerous.

    Replies: @donut, @Dumbo

    ” driving through red lights” Way back in another life when I was sailing a shipmate told me about an experience he had when joining a ship in a shipyard in Redhook. He arrived at the airport and hailed a cab and said the “shipyard in Redhook”. The cab driver wasn’t thrilled but had to take him that being the law I believe . Anyway once they got to Redhook the cabbie wouldn’t stop at any red lights as it was too dangerous. Later after he was on the ship some local just walked up the gangway w/ a gun and went from room to room robbing whom ever was on board.

    Also the Mayaguez , some of you might remember the Mayaguez incident , was in New Orleans and a gunman came aboard and robbed the capt. at gun point . Merchant ships carry a lot of cash to pay the crew cash advances and sometimes chandlers with. Better and more profitable than a 7/11 in case any of you are desperate for cash.

  17. Most normal guys who are exposed to firearms (in my case through shooting with Dad and not,say, working as key grip on “Sharkey’s Machine”) will come to like them. It’s an inexorable law of nature. They’re just fun.

    Moreover, exposure will often trigger the male “Hobby Instinct” the same way, say, cars or model trains do. Then, it’s watch out wallet.

    Eventually, you will have more guns than you can shoot in a lifetime and go through all sorts of contortions to justify your purchase, e.g., “Ok, sure, I got a S&W 686 3 inch revolver, but, you know, that’s a L frame, and I bet that Model 10 3 inch would carry better, plus it’s rare and hard to come, so it’s an investment. What’s that, honey, is this a new gun? Uh Oh’s! Sleeping on the couch time.”

    Unfortunately – just because the hobby instinct was triggered in the mind of guy like Spielberg does not mean he wants the serfs possessing them.

  18. I think this would be considered on topic.

    http://youtu.be/-TC2xTCb_GU

    Steve Lee – “I Like Guns” Lyrics

    I like guns I like the way they look
    I like the shining steel and the polished wood
    I don’t care if they’re big or small
    If they’re for sale – hell I want’em all

    I like guns
    I like guns
    I like guns

    I really like .22 Mag
    .45 lever with Winchester tag
    I like my double barrel, had it most of my life
    .357 was a present from my wife

    I like guns I like the way they look
    I like the shining steel and the polished wood
    I don’t care if they’re big or small
    If they’re for sale – hell I wanna them all

    I like guns
    I like guns
    I like guns

    ‘Cause I don’t really get all the fuss
    Why they are trying to take guns off of us
    ‘Cause I aint gonna shoot anyone
    And no one shoots at me ’cause I got a gun

    I like guns I like the way they look
    I like the shining steel and the polished wood
    I don’t care if they’re big or small
    If they’re for sale – hell I wanna them all

    I like guns
    I like guns
    I like guns

    God made the animals, god made the trees
    God made you and hell he even made me
    He gave me this voice so I could be a singer
    So you tell me why I’ve got a trigger finger

    I like guns I like the way they look
    I like the shining steel and the polished wood
    I don’t care if they’re big or small
    If they’re for sale – hell I wanna them all

    I like guns
    I like guns
    I like guns

    • Replies: @David
    @JustAnotherGuyWitha1911

    Thanks for that. I enjoyed it a lot. It's a shame that America can't find fulfillment in just growing fine citizens like that one.

  19. Do as I say, not as I do!

  20. I used to be acquainted with John Milius in the nineties through a mutual friend. His enthusiasm for guns was contagious. Here is a video I made on a trip we made to Argentina in 1993 to shoot doves:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYtbjs0Wfqk

    He’s shooting a pair of Purdeys on this trip. Note the omnipresent Cuban cigar. I haven’t spoken to him in years but enjoyed the recent documentary “Milius” which is available on Netflix and Amazon. One note of interest from the video linked above is the presence of Chuck Reidy (overweight guy with beard at the beginning), John’s accountant who later bilked him out of a great sum of money.

  21. Hollywood Libs are ‘guns for me but not for thee’.

    If owning guns is made difficult, only rich people will be able to get them.

    Zionists in Israel love guns… but not in Arab hands.

  22. My own observation of Jews, and I’d suspect a mirror of such a heavily Jewish community as Hollywood, is that there is about an even split between the ones terrified by guns and the ones terrified of NOT having them. I know a fair number of Jews who carry concealed, visit the range regularly, and belong to the NRA. But then I also know Jews who think you can cause someone’s gun to “blow up” by poking your finger into the end of the barrel. And it’s not immediately clear the dividing line is left/right although there may be more gun lovers on the right, there are definitely gun lovers on the left as well.

  23. @Anonymous
    I always thought that Jews had a quasi religious dislike of killing animals for sport.

    Replies: @donut, @Pangur, @Crawfurdmuir, @Karl

    They prefer Palestinians .

  24. @Jim
    @John Mansfield

    Compare the billionaire at your church with ordinary people in Brasil driving through red lights in broad daylight because it's too dangerous to stop. I've heard that many of the wealthy people in Brasil fly to work in helicopters because traveling on the ground is too dangerous.

    Replies: @donut, @Dumbo

    People in Brazil drive through red lights at night, but not during the day. It’s bad but not all that bad all the time.
    Yes the rich will use helicopters or cars with bulletproof windows.

  25. “Everybody assumes, logically enough, that attitudes toward guns are a central dividing line between Red State and Blue State America, and that Hollywood is Deep Blue.”

    Not if they’re familiar with the world’s most famous gunshot wound victim, Gabby Giffords and her AR purchasing husband, Mark Kelly. Politics isn’t the only thing that inspires gun ownership. Sometimes it’s just a fascination with mechanical things.

    Or maybe it’s a forbidden lust. I have a theory that the people most enthralled by cinematic gun violence are liberals, as it applies to many people I know. I, on the other hand, have absolutely no interest in seeing American Sniper.

  26. WhatEvvs [AKA "Bemused"] says:

    Outside Tucson and Phoenix, in AZ you’d better have a gun. It’s a huge state with low pop. density and they don’t have cops walking a beat.

    Of all people, Jane Fonda gave American Sniper a thumbs-up on Twitter. People see what they want to see in movies.

    I love the fact that an 85 year old made this! That’s terrific!

  27. Liberals do not disagree that guns are exciting and fun. They just think the majority of Americans are too incompetent to own one. And are too incompetent to coexist with gun owners. see Kenisha McBride for both objections.

    As a pet peeve, virtually no people in the US have liability insurace equal to the amount of damage they can do with guns and cars. Minimum auto liabilty coverage of $1,000,000 should be required to operate a motor vehicle.

  28. Perhaps Spielberg helps fund this Wisconsin based organization-Jews For the Preservation of Firearms Ownership?
    That is IF he believes the Ruck can own guns?
    A firearms owning Ruck is our only defense against genocide.

    This anti gun control group-JFPFO, has this great chart with a list of genocides and the gun control law cited that helped precipitate the genocide.

    http://jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/deathgc.htm

  29. @John Mansfield
    I was walking out from an evening church service that ended at 10 PM. A few dozen men were in attendance. As I neared the door with my sons, two old fellows right behind me were talking together and I realized that one of them was a billionaire who is a member of our church. In the parking lot, I watched the two say goodnight, and the billionaire got into his car alone and drove away. I wondered what sort of personal security he used. Probably he was carrying a gun. Probably he carried some constantly transmitting GPS tracker that could quickly signal an alarm. Even with that, though, I marveled that I live in a country where an 80-year-old billionaire can function openly like a normal person.

    Replies: @Jim, @Reg Cæsar, @Dave Pinsen

    … I marveled that I live in a country where an 80-year-old billionaire can function openly like a normal person.

    Who’s gonna know he’s a billionaire? Most are anonymous, especially those who, Puritan-style, play down their wealth. Drive a Buick, not a Caddy, as Paul Fussell described in Class.

    • Replies: @Marty
    @Reg Cæsar

    Charlie Munger doesn't carry a gun. He believes he can talk to blacks.

  30. Charlton Heston, who got a look at Spielberg’s armoory, wrote in his book “In the Arena”: “It is not widely known that one of the finest gun collections on the West Coast is Steven Spielberg’s. He shoots, but very privately.”

    Heston also wrote, “In Hollywood there are more gun owners in the closet than homosexuals.”

  31. Priss Factor [AKA "oblique mystique"] says:

    But whom are they ‘liberal gun nuts’ aiming at?

    At Libs or at us?

  32. Post Rodney King riot article in the NY Times on Hollywood’s ambivalence about guns:

    The Executive Life; Post-Riot L.A.’s Gun-Toting Liberals
    By Anne Thompson;
    Published: June 28, 1992

    LOS ANGELES— For many Hollywood executives weighing the post-riot world of L.A., guns have suddenly become more than the controversial centerpieces of some of their blockbuster films. Strong defenders of big-screen violence are now pondering how to defend themselves against the real kind.

    Many entertainment executives, not unlike other Californians, have been buying guns. And those who don’t own them have been consulting those who do.

    “During the riots, my shotgun became a desired commodity,” said James Jacks, a production executive (“The Dark Man”) who grew up in a military family, hunted as a kid and bought the gun when he moved into a house north of Sunset Strip several years ago. “A couple of friends asked if I’d come over and help if they got in trouble. People all of a sudden felt naked. Liberals with shotguns: a funny image. They’re all embarrassed by their fear.”

    Mr. Jacks said that after the riots he bought a rifle for a woman friend and a shotgun for his partner, Sean Daniel (“American Me”). Mr. Daniel won’t admit to “owning” the gun until he has it in his possession, and he won’t have it in the house until he knows how to use it.

    A talent agent said, on the condition he not be named, that he purchased a “little pistol” the first day of the riots and borrowed another from a friend until his was delivered after the 15-day waiting period. “Many of my knee-jerk liberal friends have felt uncomfortable enough to buy a weapon,” he said.

    Another agent was willing to describe his pistol collection — which includes a .357 Colt Python and a “James Bond” Walther PPK — only if he wasn’t identified. “Owning guns has a political connotation slightly to the right of John Birch,” he said.

    Observes Anne Friedberg, a University of California film professor: “Many Hollywood people have public politics that are liberal pacifist and personal politics that are protectionist. It’s shocking how many people in the film community own guns.”

    [MORE]

    Deep in the basement of a nondescript Beverly Boulevard office building, the Beverly Hills Gun Shop is doing two-thirds more business since the riots at the end of April.

    “The phone is ringing continuously,” reports owner George Waite. “There’s a whole new different type of customer. Before, it was more gun collectors, people who were really into firearms.” Now, he said, customers are coming from more affluent areas. “We have no sign; we’re very discreet. The executives walk in with their attaches and walk out again.”

    Last week, Mr. Waite said, he made a special house call to the Reagan ranch to deliver a gift to the ex-President, an “old-Western-style” Colt .45.

    Writer and director John Milius (“Red Dawn”), a known gun enthusiast, says he has received “lots of calls” for advice since the riots. “They usually want something they saw in a movie, like an Uzi,” he says. “The gun of choice for yuppies right now is a 9-millimeter semiautomatic pistol. They hold 12 to 14 bullets, which helps if you can’t hit anything.” But, he adds, “I never recommend it; 99.9 percent of these people will never learn how to handle a gun properly.”

    That’s what worries Mr. Waite. “After ‘Die Hard’ and ‘Lethal Weapon’ opened,” he says, “the gun shop was hopping with people wanting to buy the Beretta 92 F,” a 9-millimeter semiautomatic pistol that shoots 16 times. “I believe in gun education. But I can’t force my customers to read books or take classes.”

    Mr. Waite isn’t taking any chances where his 4-year-old daughter is concerned: He won’t have guns in the house. But for the neophyte wanting to buy a firearm for protection — and able to afford the $260 to $490 price tag — he recommends a Smith & Wesson model 640 revolver. “It takes a definite action to make it fire,” he explained.

    Mr. Milius favors large, always-loaded weapons that call out their danger. “I recommend a large-frame revolver, a .44 Special or .45 Long Colt,” he said. “The bigger it is, the safer it is.”

    The best way to learn to use a gun, Mr. Milius said, is to take up his favorite sport, shooting clay targets. He said he enjoys improving his shooting average at Moore & Moore’s Sporting Clays with his pals Arnold Schwarzenegger, Steven Spielberg and Bob Zemeckis, all of whom, he said, use variations of the 12-gauge over-under shotgun.

    Business is up 40 percent at the Beverly Hills Gun Club since the riots, and target practice at the club’s indoor pistol range appears to be the latest Hollywood sport of choice, according to manager Owen Smet. “We’ve had a significant increase in the number of training civilians and security guards,” he said.

    “Americans have always loved guns,” said Jon Weiner, a professor of history at the University of California. “It’s a fairly recent idea that guns aren’t a good thing. The image of the lone man defending his homestead, standing in the doorway armed to the teeth, is deeply embedded in the American psyche, which means the Hollywood psyche.”

    Mr. Jacks, the production executive, insists: “This isn’t about macho. Nobody’s trying to be Rambo. You just don’t want somebody to have the power of life and death over you.”

    His partner, Mr. Daniel, concurs. “The idea that you may be on your own is what occurred to everyone,” he said. “This city can turn dangerous for all of us really quickly. You have to assume in L.A. today that you are in a heavily armed environment. I don’t think that realization is a question of your political bent.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/1992/06/28/business/the-executive-life-post-riot-la-s-gun-toting-liberals.html

  33. From a 1997 interview with Charlton Heston:

    Public opinion on firearms, Heston says, seems to be shifting in the face of recent violent inci­dents. He recalled the Los Angeles riots in 1992, which helped many Hollywood folks change their views on gun ownership. As smoke from burning buildings smudged the skyline and the TV news showed vivid images of laughing loot­ers smashing windows and carting off boom boxes and booze, Heston got a few phone calls from firmly anti-gun friends. One conversation went this way:

    “Umm, Chuck, you have quite a few … ah, guns, don’t you?”

    “Yes, I do.”

    “Shotguns and … like that?”

    “Indeed.”

    “Could you lend me one for a day or so? I tried to buy one, but they have this waiting period … ”

    “Yeah, I know; I remember you voted for that. Do you know how to use a shotgun?”

    “No, I thought maybe you could teach me. This is getting a little scary.”

    “I noticed. I could teach you, but not in an hour. You might shoot yourself instead of the bad guys. The Marines are coming up from Pendleton; that’ll end it. When it does, go buy yourself a good shotgun and take some lessons. It doesn’t get so scary then.”

    Heston said his friend writer-director John Milius had more calls. His answer was more forthright: “Sorry. They’re all being used.”

  34. As I posted in Steve’s original Hollywood gun nuts thread a couple years ago, the Hollywood crowd offers the media pro-gun control quotes almost on demand. Yet if you believe the tabloids and gossip sites a surprisingly high number of celebs wave guns around when they’re coked out, or have a pistol in the glovebox when they’re pulled over for speeding or DUI.

    As for the normal living billionaire: good for him. Anyone remember that book popular in the ’90s? The Millionaire Next Door. Most millionaires and truly wealthy act quite normal. The real flashy people are the six digit income crowd living paycheck to paycheck ir living beyond their means. Like Reg Caesar said, drive a Buick, not a Cadillac.

  35. Priss Factor [AKA "oblique mystique"] says:

    Fukuyama in his End of History theory said ‘liberal democracy’ is the final end of human moral and social revolution. This was at the end of the COLD WAR. There is nothing really more after that. (With bioengineering, we might see something closer to BRAVE NEW WORLD scenario but never mind.)

    Now, NYT says it’s the End of History on the ‘gay’ issue. ‘Gay marriage’ is great, history is OVER on that subject, and we should all just agree. (Maybe on the issue of interracism, maybe Jews will say blacks won the CUCKOLD WAR, and white males as wussies should just accept it.)

    It’s over, there’s nothing more to be said, and that’s that. So, shut up and suck it up.

    But here’s the difference between Fuku and NYT Jews. Fuku wasn’t calling for an End of Debate. If anything, he was starting one by positing a theory. He wanted to debate the merit of the ‘end of history’ theory.
    In contrast, Jews and homos at NYT who call for End of History on the ‘gay’ issue are really calling for END OF DEBATE. It’s over, so just shut up. There’s nothing more to be said.

    Just like Ziegler tells Bill Harford. What happened happened, and just forget about it. We got the real power, you’re a little shit, so know your place in the order of things. No more talking, no more discussion. Just go home and shut up and live your little life. WE will handle everything.

    END OF DEBATE is what NYT Jews and neo-aristo-homos are all about.

    http://youtu.be/-n-ojOnrfYk?t=2m46s

  36. I always the president could travel that way, instead of the Praetorian guard and the street closures, just put him in a window tinted SUV and let us get about our business.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    @Blobby5

    The level of security for US presidents does border on the ludicrous. I remember seeing a photo in the NYT of Sarkozy jogging in Central Park during a UN week. He had 1 security man with him and he survived.

  37. Did anyone post “Guns for me but not for thee” yet?

    • Replies: @Lurker
    @Embittered Former Republican

    I was going to...

  38. @Reg Cæsar
    @John Mansfield


    … I marveled that I live in a country where an 80-year-old billionaire can function openly like a normal person.
     
    Who's gonna know he's a billionaire? Most are anonymous, especially those who, Puritan-style, play down their wealth. Drive a Buick, not a Caddy, as Paul Fussell described in Class.

    Replies: @Marty

    Charlie Munger doesn’t carry a gun. He believes he can talk to blacks.

  39. The director is an actual red. Spielberg is a German/Jewish name, and hence he’s intrinsically red, since Jews are. My idea of Israeli Jews is that they’re not only inbred, but that they’re a red population since the Judaic religion concentrated on the atonement of human sin, through animal lamb sacrifices, to God (Yahweh).

    They also cared about procreation or fertility (e.g. Genesis), as well as good fortune (e.g. red blood on the doors in Exodus) and courage (e.g. King David in the Book of Samuel, 1 Kings and 1 Chronicles). That’s the sole reason why the the Saviour Jesus Christ was born within the ancient Jewish populations and not other tribes. The Messiah would save humanity and atone for human sin through his crucifixion (e.g. flesh, blood) on the Roman cross.

  40. Pat Casey says:

    Steve,
    re Hollywood conservative sub-culture, sounds like a must-read might be Republican Party Animal by David Cole, published in 2013. This guy was not on my radar at all, until I read his column last week at TakiMag

    http://takimag.com/article/hate_speech_derby_mohammed_vs_auschwitz_david_cole#axzz3PTs1Z0wB

    and I’m damn sorry I missed the feeding frenzy when his alias got nixed in 2013 and the neo-con establishment realized they’d been publishing the only Jewish Holocaust Revisionist in the world. (I mean the Weekly Standard even ran him.) Apparently he put the holocaust aside when Irv Rubbin and the Jewish Defense League put a bounty on his head–not a metaphor–and reinvented himself as a Republican fundraiser/organizer in Hollywood. Apparently his book is quite funny and has some juicy tidbits. I listened to an interview of him and he’s very likable and his voice is UNREAL.

    ANYWAYS I’m keeping an eye on his website because he filmed a three-hour interview with Mel Gibson’s dad in 2003, it’s the only real interview Hutton Gibson has ever given, and after sitting on it all these years at Mel’s request Cole says it’s coming out early this year.

    By the way, here’s Christopher Hitchens best essay ever, The Strange Case of David Irving–truly it is so well done.

    http://articles.latimes.com/2001/may/20/books/bk-144

  41. And yet, Michael Moore, Seth Rogen, both blasted American Sniper comparing it to Nazi War propaganda.

    And as Hollywood gets Blacker and more female, old line guys like Speilberg will be replaced by Oprah, Shonda Rhimes, Kevin Hart, and Judd Apatow. I doubt Apatow has a gun collection.

    And he’s the future of Hollywood. Spielberg is the past.

    Indeed the agency oroblem, Hollywood types don’t own their stuff, they are just uber networked contractors with a guild, seems to intensify overt anti gun stuff.

    If Matt Damon would take a loss for a flop and mucho bucks for a hit, he’d be turning out John Wayne stuff about Iraq and Afghanistan.

  42. delete this post

  43. @BB753
    Sure, they like their guns. They just don´t like it when the wrong kind of people own them: country rubes, middle-class law-abiding Americans, Blacks and Hispanics. It´s a class thing, you see, like country clubs. Or free speech. Free speech is not for ordinary people either.

    Replies: @Hippopotamusdrome

    They just don´t like it when the wrong kind of people own them: country rubes, middle-class law-abiding Americans, Blacks and Hispanics.

    Why add Blacks and Hispanics? Black and Hispanic gangs and guns are cool. Especially when they hold the gun sideways.

    Category:Hood films

    Colors
    Real gang members were hired as guardians as well as actors by producer Robert H. Solo. Two of them were shot during filming.
    Boyz n the Hood
    Menace II Society
    Juice
    It stars rapper Tupac Shakur and Omar Epps.
    CB4
    Belly 2: Millionaire Boyz Club
    Blood In Blood Out
    Get Rich or Die Tryin’
    Lost in the Hood
    Rappin’
    Ice-T’s small role is uncredited
    Rollin’ with the Nines
    Thug Life

    • Replies: @BB753
    @Hippopotamusdrome

    LOL! Yeah, black thugs are cool in pictures, not in real life. I doubt Hollywood producers let any "black bodies" anywhere near their mansions.
    BTW, Omar Epps went on to play a sophisticated surgeon in the medical drama tv series House.

  44. Okay, so, I was wrong. Steve doesn’t “never” talk about guns. Truth be told, my memory isn’t what it once was. 🙂

    I never get tired of hearing about Spielberg the closet Conservative; Eagle Scout, gun collector, shooting enthusiast.

  45. When the media asked Liam Neeson about the Islamic terrorist attack in Paris, he quickly changed the subject and said the problem in the world is there are way too many Americans who have access to guns.

    He should have said the problem is there are way too many Muslims who have access to guns, but that would be too racist for a politically correct liberal Irish asshole like him to say. It is more PC to just pick on Americans.

  46. NRA in New Movie

    Film executive Harvey Weinstein said Wednesday he plans to make an anti-gun movie starring Meryl Streep that will take a direct shot at the National Rifle Association.

    “I never want to have a gun,” Weinstein said. “I don’t think we need guns in this country, and I hate it, and I think the NRA is a disaster area.”

    Now that’s more like it.

  47. Any Hollywood bigshot who has ever touched a trigger is a deadly accurate marksman, just as if he has ever pulled a robe on he’s a lethal martial artist.

  48. @donut
    @grey enlightenment

    Yes and they go back and forth between antiwar and gung ho depending on which way the wind is blowing . Erich Maria Remarque one of their beloved spent 5 weeks at the front pulling his p*d before being wounded slightly and spent the rest of the war in hospital.
    Ernst Jünger on the other hand spent most of the war at the front and was wounded 7 times . And he thought war was" a work of transforming beauty" to borrow a phrase from some film critic.

    You can read his book "Storm of Steel " . Or check him out on wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_J%C3%BCnger.

    Replies: @Hippopotamusdrome

    Yes and they go back and forth between antiwar and gung ho depending on which way the wind is blowing .

    Also depending on whether or not the war is against a Communist country.

  49. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    OT Spielberg encounter...

    My wife and I were out visiting relatives in Santa Monica. We went to Mass (11:30 AM?) at Saint Monica's (the one where Tom Brady got married). Afterward they were having a baptism. My wife and I were walking back to the courtyard gift shop and I happened to look into one of the opened side doors of the church. I told my wife, "Hey, the guy with the video camera filming the baptism is Steven Spielberg." Obviously she was skeptical but confirmed it was Spielberg. I guess it was a family member or a close friend, because he was all beaming smiles as if it was his grandchild.

    Replies: @Anon

    “My wife and I were walking back to the courtyard gift shop and I happened to look into one of the opened side doors of the church. I told my wife, “Hey, the guy with the video camera filming the baptism is Steven Spielberg.”

    Spielberg, the great friend of Christians.

    Hasbara.

  50. @Anonymous
    I always thought that Jews had a quasi religious dislike of killing animals for sport.

    Replies: @donut, @Pangur, @Crawfurdmuir, @Karl

    Professional courtesy.

  51. You wrote – “the writer-director-wild man John Milius, screenwriter of Apocalypse Now and director of Conan the Barbarian, an alarming yet strangely central figure in the history of 1970s Hollywood.”

    I’m surprised you did not note that John Milius is a member of the NRA’s Board of Directors – up for re-election this year, per the ballot enclosed in the most recent issue of The American Rifleman. I don’t find that “alarming” at all.

    He’s well known in Hollywood for being “politically right-wing.” See:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Milius

  52. @Anonymous
    I always thought that Jews had a quasi religious dislike of killing animals for sport.

    Replies: @donut, @Pangur, @Crawfurdmuir, @Karl

    Anon. wrote: “I always thought that Jews had a quasi religious dislike of killing animals for sport.”

    I wonder how connected with religion this really is, or if it is more a reflection of the collectivist and anti-Christian prejudices of eastern European Ashkenazic Jews living in a part of the world where hunting was a privilege of the Christian gentry and nobility.

    Upper-middle-class Jews in Britain often bought country estates and adopted the recreations of the landed class. Siegfried Sassoon’s semi-autobiographical “Memoirs of a Fox-Hunting Man” is a minor classic of English literature. Several members of the English branch of the Rothschild family were enthusiasts of driven bird shooting.

    • Replies: @slumber_j
    @Crawfurdmuir


    Several members of the English branch of the Rothschild family were enthusiasts of driven bird shooting.
     
    Generations of Hambros too--most notably at Dumbleton, in Gloucestershire.
    , @kaganovitch
    @Crawfurdmuir

    Anon. wrote: “I always thought that Jews had a quasi religious dislike of killing animals for sport.”

    This is indeed so; Rabbi Ezekiel Landau (chief rabbi of prague in the mid 18th century) authored the classic responsa on the subject. On the other hand hollywood moguls are not the most observant of jews. Fwiw Rabbi Landau is , somewhat surprisingly,mildly sympathetic to his interlocutor's status seeking desire to hunt with his noble aquaintances, and frowns on hunting for other reasons.

  53. With less being more and life a mere second to art, soon you’ll be able to 3D print copies of guns. These could be more dangerous than the old ones. Around here the new chosen method is arson because they don’t have guns. VFD is buzier than the PD

  54. But if you dig a little more, it turns out that Spielberg is a lifelong passionate shooter

    “Freedom for me, but not for thee.”

    Everybody assumes, logically enough, that attitudes toward guns are a central dividing line between Red State and Blue State America, and that Hollywood is Deep Blue.

    The dividing line is not whether or not people like guns but how they feel, think, and vote about *other* people owning guns.

  55. Yeah, I think Spielberg’s love of guns has been kind of an open secret in the industry for years. When I was in L.A. I heard it mentioned more than once from industry folks that Spielberg supposedly had the third or fourth largest private gun collection in California. I’ve also heard he’s somewhat anal about having firearms portrayed realistically in his films — at least the ones he directs.

    All that might be typical industry hyperbole, but I heard that stuff kicked around so much that I was left with impression that Spielberg is definitely a dude who really, really likes guns.

  56. Re: “Guns for me but not for thee”

    Has Spielberg ever actually expressed any views on gun control? My impression is that he hasn’t. I think in Hollywood, the usual practice of celebrities is to strenuously avoid commenting on issues where they hold politically-incorrect views, while loudly trumpeting their stances that happen to be PC-compliant. The result is that the industry, while undeniably left-wing, is not nearly so left-wing as it usually appears. (A uniformly left-wing environment — see a typical college English department for an example — would not have room for guys like Clint Eastwood.)

    I think this is what leads to a phenomenon that Steve has commented on in the past: The fact that, if you pay attention, movies and TV shows sometimes include a surprising undercurrent of subversively non-PC themes or ideas, indicating that not everybody in the industry is 100 percent onboard with the left-wing train.

    • Replies: @Whiskey
    @Mr. Blank

    Yes, not everyone is on board. But the train is clearly moving hard left.

    There was a blogger, "Furious D," his website escapes me for the moment, whose key insight into Hollywood was that it ran on the principal of cheating creative people out of earnings, so everyone demanded up-front money, and the place ran on incestous social networks whose strength was not how much money the network made (since that went to theoretically shareholders and in actuality the main executives in charge of studios or studio/media holding companies). But rather how many jobs and patronage the network could create for its members.

    If you look at how Hollywood makes its money NOW, Spielberg is old news. He hasn't had a big hit in decades, so when he wanted to make American Sniper as a big budget movie, he was told no. That wouldn't have happened in 1989, or even 1997. But it did happen now.

    Meanwhile Oprah is a BIG DEAL. Because she can fund and publicize her own movies, and employ lots of people. Spielberg is important in hosting big time Democratic Fundraisers for Obama, but outside that, he neither makes money like say Joss Whedon in Avengers, nor employs a boatload of people like the Apatow crowd (said Apatow movies likely lose money but who cares, the point of the movies is jobs for the cronies) nor can Spielberg fund movies out of his pocket change like Oprah and generate (because she's Oprah) a lot of attention and moviegoing and Academy Awards.

    Hollywood's money-makers are big budget, known quantity, action-adventure films that play well overseas (where half the box office revenues come from) and produce lots of revenue (generally according to the FT about 1.5 to 2X the box office gross) in merchandise: toys, games, etc. But foreign audiences don't like Westerns in other guises (American Sniper) and want generic superhero types etc.

    Hollywood's job network on the other hand loses money (Hollywood does not care, it exists not to make money for executives but jobs/money for its network), and there social opinions move ever leftward as Hollywood becomes another outpost of Harvard Lampoon types.

    But as films become something distributed online, VOD, etc. rather than pricey theatrical release, the opportunity for competition is greater. Yes there are outliers of people not on the Apatow-Rogen hard left idiocy still in Hollywood. I hope real competition from other places particularly in the job network or ownership model -- Actors work for scale in exchange for part-ownership and honest, non-Hollywood accounting ala some Kickstarter models, creates a more rightward or at least less insane leftward tilt.

    What's wrong with Hollywood is not "bad people" (found anywhere) or some ethnic group. It is structure and incentives. Munger may be a social idiot but he's right about the power of incentives.

  57. @John Mansfield
    I was walking out from an evening church service that ended at 10 PM. A few dozen men were in attendance. As I neared the door with my sons, two old fellows right behind me were talking together and I realized that one of them was a billionaire who is a member of our church. In the parking lot, I watched the two say goodnight, and the billionaire got into his car alone and drove away. I wondered what sort of personal security he used. Probably he was carrying a gun. Probably he carried some constantly transmitting GPS tracker that could quickly signal an alarm. Even with that, though, I marveled that I live in a country where an 80-year-old billionaire can function openly like a normal person.

    Replies: @Jim, @Reg Cæsar, @Dave Pinsen

    There are billionaires in New York who ride bikes, walk, and take subways by themselves. And not only that – they broadcast their locations in real time via social media.

  58. I think Milius also has a gun-per-picture tradition; every deal he closes involves a gun. For his “Evel Knievel” script he demanded “women, whiskey, and gold” and a room in Palm Springs for the duration.

    The Milius documentary is fun and amusing. He had the ability to knock out some great dialog on demand, and often supplied the skill to his buddies like Coppola and Spielberg, as with the “USS Indianapolis” scene in Jaws. A remarkable percentage of the “famous movie catch phrases” come directly from Milius.

  59. @Blobby5
    I always the president could travel that way, instead of the Praetorian guard and the street closures, just put him in a window tinted SUV and let us get about our business.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen

    The level of security for US presidents does border on the ludicrous. I remember seeing a photo in the NYT of Sarkozy jogging in Central Park during a UN week. He had 1 security man with him and he survived.


  60. ‘Jurassic Park IV’ Story Details Revealed, Casting Begins!


    We’re told that the film is about the government who has trained dinosaurs to carry weapons and use them for battle purposes.

  61. WhatEvvs [AKA "Bemused"] says:
    @Anonymous

    @Anonymous

    I always thought that Jews had a quasi religious dislike of killing animals for sport.

     

    Spielberg is into skeet shooting, not hunting. From my experience, most above-average-IQ people (i.e, Jews, etc.) are not into hunting or killing animals. Jews in Congress get the highest approval ratings from HSUS, PETA, et al., for animal welfare issues. Jews trust dogs. Gentiles not so much.

    Replies: @WhatEvvs, @Chrisnonymous, @Stan Adams

    I think Anon#1 is right – Jews do on the whole disapprove of this kind of hunting:

    https://www.thedodo.com/-kid-rock-kills-cougar-943386525.html

    That photo turned my stomach. Commercial hunting of animals that have already been hunted nearly to extinction makes me want to vomit.

    Hunting animals for food – no problem. Culling – same. If the animal is disturbed – ditto.

    But for blood sport – why? I don’t see one good reason for this, other than twisted ego.

    Ted Nugent and Kid Rock used to be funny. Not anymore.

    • Replies: @Lurker
    @WhatEvvs

    I see Kid Rock as an absurd, posturing faggot - desperate for any macho authenticity he can accquire and failing every time. Vile.

    Replies: @WhatEvvs

  62. @Mr. Blank
    Re: "Guns for me but not for thee"

    Has Spielberg ever actually expressed any views on gun control? My impression is that he hasn't. I think in Hollywood, the usual practice of celebrities is to strenuously avoid commenting on issues where they hold politically-incorrect views, while loudly trumpeting their stances that happen to be PC-compliant. The result is that the industry, while undeniably left-wing, is not nearly so left-wing as it usually appears. (A uniformly left-wing environment — see a typical college English department for an example — would not have room for guys like Clint Eastwood.)

    I think this is what leads to a phenomenon that Steve has commented on in the past: The fact that, if you pay attention, movies and TV shows sometimes include a surprising undercurrent of subversively non-PC themes or ideas, indicating that not everybody in the industry is 100 percent onboard with the left-wing train.

    Replies: @Whiskey

    Yes, not everyone is on board. But the train is clearly moving hard left.

    There was a blogger, “Furious D,” his website escapes me for the moment, whose key insight into Hollywood was that it ran on the principal of cheating creative people out of earnings, so everyone demanded up-front money, and the place ran on incestous social networks whose strength was not how much money the network made (since that went to theoretically shareholders and in actuality the main executives in charge of studios or studio/media holding companies). But rather how many jobs and patronage the network could create for its members.

    If you look at how Hollywood makes its money NOW, Spielberg is old news. He hasn’t had a big hit in decades, so when he wanted to make American Sniper as a big budget movie, he was told no. That wouldn’t have happened in 1989, or even 1997. But it did happen now.

    Meanwhile Oprah is a BIG DEAL. Because she can fund and publicize her own movies, and employ lots of people. Spielberg is important in hosting big time Democratic Fundraisers for Obama, but outside that, he neither makes money like say Joss Whedon in Avengers, nor employs a boatload of people like the Apatow crowd (said Apatow movies likely lose money but who cares, the point of the movies is jobs for the cronies) nor can Spielberg fund movies out of his pocket change like Oprah and generate (because she’s Oprah) a lot of attention and moviegoing and Academy Awards.

    Hollywood’s money-makers are big budget, known quantity, action-adventure films that play well overseas (where half the box office revenues come from) and produce lots of revenue (generally according to the FT about 1.5 to 2X the box office gross) in merchandise: toys, games, etc. But foreign audiences don’t like Westerns in other guises (American Sniper) and want generic superhero types etc.

    Hollywood’s job network on the other hand loses money (Hollywood does not care, it exists not to make money for executives but jobs/money for its network), and there social opinions move ever leftward as Hollywood becomes another outpost of Harvard Lampoon types.

    But as films become something distributed online, VOD, etc. rather than pricey theatrical release, the opportunity for competition is greater. Yes there are outliers of people not on the Apatow-Rogen hard left idiocy still in Hollywood. I hope real competition from other places particularly in the job network or ownership model — Actors work for scale in exchange for part-ownership and honest, non-Hollywood accounting ala some Kickstarter models, creates a more rightward or at least less insane leftward tilt.

    What’s wrong with Hollywood is not “bad people” (found anywhere) or some ethnic group. It is structure and incentives. Munger may be a social idiot but he’s right about the power of incentives.

  63. @Chrisnonymous
    Re liberal gun-lovers:

    The folks of www.bOINGbOING.net are pretty ardent gun supporters, which is strange because they are very anti-American, anti-religion, and anti-middle-class. After years of following their blog, I haven't been able to square the circle, but it is interesting.

    In addition, Steve, you should check out the Morgan Spurlock YouTube video on a day in the life of Tim Ferriss. It features his trip to a shooting range in San Francisco, which I find incredible! Admittedly, Tim Ferriss likes publicity and going against the crowd, but I think there is an honest interest in guns there too. Also, how can the shooting range survive without other clients?

    Although I have spent my life on the East Coast of America and now am an expat, I think there are pro-gun sentiments that have been brewing in the "left-coast" culture for maybe decades. I think it could be the next frontier for the shallow people who have been hipsters. Knees too old to ride single-gear road bikes to work? No problem! You can form your identity around vintage handguns or somesuch.

    Two observations re Spielberg:

    (1) It's easy to forget that he was a Boy Scout with enough fondness for his time in the Scouts to incorporate Scouting into the Indiana Jones trilogy. In these days of the Scouts being vilified for their anti-gay views, he has probably turned his back on them, but there was clearly a time when they represented "the good old days" for him. There is, of course, a shooting merit badge, and shooting is a big thing at Scout camps (at least, back when I was in Scouts), where many boys are exposed to rifles and gun safety for the first time.

    (2) When I was in university, I had a friend who was a Conservative Jew. He told me straight up that when the American Holocaust started, he expected me to be his personal Schindler. This was not presented out of arrogance or entitlement but desperation. it is important not to underestimate the level of paranoia. I am 99.9% sure that it has crossed Spielberg's mind that he might have to shoot an anti-Semitic neo-Nazi white supremacist some day to save himself.

    Replies: @snorlax, @JV

    When I was in university, I had a friend who was a Conservative Jew. He told me straight up that when the American Holocaust started, he expected me to be his personal Schindler. This was not presented out of arrogance or entitlement but desperation. it is important not to underestimate the level of paranoia. I am 99.9% sure that it has crossed Spielberg’s mind that he might have to shoot an anti-Semitic neo-Nazi white supremacist some day to save himself.

    It just occurred to me that for all the lost love between them, Jews and Russians have a very similar worldview. Both are convinced that other Americans and Europeans are all secretly neo-Nazis who are plotting their genocide.

  64. “Zionists in Israel love guns… but not in Arab hands.”

    Guns in the hands of Arab Muslims is generally not a good thing since they usually use it for evil. Most of them use it to carry out violence in the name of their pedophile prophet Muhammad.

    Bat shit crazy religious extremists plus guns = toxic.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Jefferson


    Guns in the hands of Arab Muslims is generally not a good thing since they usually use it for evil.
     
    Outside of lily-white New England, did any of the states that ratified the Second Amendment allow blacks to possess firearms?
    , @gzu
    @Jefferson

    Can somebody ban this despicable troll?

    Who gives a shit if Mohammad was a pedophile? So was Thomas Jefferson.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Reg Cæsar

    , @gzu
    @Jefferson

    " Most of them use it to carry out violence in the name of their pedophile prophet Muhammad."

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

    Do you even know what "most" means you poltroon?

  65. Priss Factor [AKA "oblique mystique"] says:

    Spielberg is a major pusher of Obama and homo-stuff. He collaborated with Marxist-homo Tony Kushner twice.

    He’s a buns and guns guy.

    And in LINCOLN, he loved presenting white Northerners gunning down white southerners who are supposed to be like Nazis in SAVING PRIVATE RYAN.
    He even had black soldiers stomping the head of dead southern white soldiers.

    Spielberg is talented but he hates hates and hates white gentiles except those who suck up to his tribe.

  66. “I think in Hollywood, the usual practice of celebrities is to strenuously avoid commenting on issues where they hold politically-incorrect views,”

    Or celebrities express politically incorrect views once their 15 minutes of fame are up and no longer have anything to lose career wise. Actors Dean Cain and Jon Lovitz for example have publicly bashed Hussein Obama a lot on social media in the last couple of years. They haven’t been relevant in Hollywood since the 1990s so they no longer have to tow the PC line in Tinseltown. They don’t care if bashing Hussein means less work for them in Hollywood because they wouldn’t have gotten a lot of work today anyways even if they kept their politically incorrect views to themselves, so what do they have to lose.

  67. Director Michael Mann is a political liberal but a gun enthusiast. He attended Gunsite, the firearms training center in Paulden, Arizona, and used to compete in the Southwest Combat Pistol League. Mann took James Caan to Gunsite to prepare for his role in “Thief” and cast nationally-ranked IPSC shooter Jim Zubiena as an assassin on Miami Vice,. Zubiena demonstrated his fast draw here:

    The firearms aspects of Mann’s films are conspicuously well done–it’s the human element that generally falls short.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Harry Baldwin


    The firearms aspects of Mann’s films are conspicuously well done–it’s the human element that generally falls short.
     
    A little too much in fact. In "Heat," for example, bank robbers doing bounding overwatch. Really, bank robbers?

    I think Mann also makes sure that all the firearms have correct sound/report. No SxS shotguns with slide racking noise in his films.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen

  68. I’m sure most film stars who are household names depend on guns for their safety, whether carried by themselves or their security people. Those who support gun control are hypocrites, even if they never handle a firearm themselves.

    • Replies: @donut
    @Rob McX

    Here's a good example of a hypocrite :

    http://www.americanthinker.com/video/2012/12/hypocrite_anti-gun_sen_feinstein_confesses_concealed_weapon_for_her_own_self-defense.html

    and her record on guns for you and me :

    http://www.ontheissues.org/Domestic/Dianne_Feinstein_Gun_Control.htm

  69. “The tiny European nation of Estonia is not particularly known for their electronics, and has very little, if any manufacturing experience when it comes to 3D printing.

    That’s until now…” http://3dprint.com/38655/edm-3d-printed-estonia/

    Print guns? Maybe they’ll come up with a Glock you make at home.

    If I can be Estonian and yous can be Estonians, we can all be Estonians!

  70. Anon. wrote: “I always thought that Jews had a quasi religious dislike of killing animals for sport.”

    I wonder how connected with religion this really is, or if it is more a reflection of the collectivist and anti-Christian prejudices of eastern European Ashkenazic Jews living in a part of the world where hunting was a privilege of the Christian gentry and nobility.

    Jews and urban life go together like cookies and milk. Same goes for hunters and rural life.

  71. Can’t see if anyone mentioned it, but there’s a great Milius documentary on Netflix right now, with all sorts of major players (including Spielberg) speaking good stuff about him. Sam Elliot gave the money quote: “he doesn’t write for pussies, and he doesn’t write for women.”

    I don’t think anyone can be a good buddy of Milius without being in some way tolerant of moderate conservative views.

  72. @Crawfurdmuir
    @Anonymous

    Anon. wrote: "I always thought that Jews had a quasi religious dislike of killing animals for sport."

    I wonder how connected with religion this really is, or if it is more a reflection of the collectivist and anti-Christian prejudices of eastern European Ashkenazic Jews living in a part of the world where hunting was a privilege of the Christian gentry and nobility.

    Upper-middle-class Jews in Britain often bought country estates and adopted the recreations of the landed class. Siegfried Sassoon's semi-autobiographical "Memoirs of a Fox-Hunting Man" is a minor classic of English literature. Several members of the English branch of the Rothschild family were enthusiasts of driven bird shooting.

    Replies: @slumber_j, @kaganovitch

    Several members of the English branch of the Rothschild family were enthusiasts of driven bird shooting.

    Generations of Hambros too–most notably at Dumbleton, in Gloucestershire.

  73. There is a film called “Tusk” where Johnny Depp plays a French Canadian named Guy Lapointe. There is a scene where he gives Haley Joel Osment a gun, but he refuses to take it because he does not know how to use it. This surprises Johnny Depp’s character who responds by saying “You don’t know how to use a firearm ? What kind of American are you ?”

  74. @Anonymous

    @Anonymous

    I always thought that Jews had a quasi religious dislike of killing animals for sport.

     

    Spielberg is into skeet shooting, not hunting. From my experience, most above-average-IQ people (i.e, Jews, etc.) are not into hunting or killing animals. Jews in Congress get the highest approval ratings from HSUS, PETA, et al., for animal welfare issues. Jews trust dogs. Gentiles not so much.

    Replies: @WhatEvvs, @Chrisnonymous, @Stan Adams

    Spielberg is into skeet shooting, not hunting. From my experience, most above-average-IQ people (i.e, Jews, etc.) are not into hunting or killing animals.

    I think this is an accident of culture. You should The Omnivore’s Dilemma’s account of hunting. The author, who is quasi vegetarian, was shocked to discover thrilling hunting was.

    Jews and high IQ people tend to be urbanites nowadays, and with the Great Sort that is ever moreso. Urbanites don’t hunt for logistical reasons, and their children develop stigmas about things related to nature like insects, dirt, and death.

  75. Speaking of Hollywood once in awhile doing something politically incorrect, there is a SNL skit with a White guy and Keenan Thompson as the ghost of MLK where it is mentioned that every street named after him is located in a high crime area and Keenan’s MLK character finds this disappointing. The skit was guilty of the racial sin of noticing.

    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    @Jefferson

    Key & Peele do some great non-pc stuff. They recently noticed that blacks are not all that comfortable about gays in this sketch about the Gay Wedding Planner:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtgY1q0J_TQ

  76. there’s a great Milius documentary on Netflix right now

    Fantastic documentary.

    One of my favorite films is “Farewell to the King” by Milius:

    It has the best lines in a movie, ever:

    Capt. Fairbourne: What do you want?

    Learoyd: Freedom, to be like we are.

    Capt. Fairbourne: Anything else?

    Learoyd: Guns. So they can’t take the freedom away.

    Capt. Fairbourne: Well, I’ll see what I can do.

    Learoyd: And grenades, mortars and mines, so they can’t take the guns away.

    • Replies: @Seneca
    @Twinkie

    I agree Farewell To The King is a great film, well worth seeing.

    Nick Nolte is sublime as a Colonel Kurtz type character.

    He plays an American deserter who becomes king of a tribe in the jungles of Borneo during WWII.

    While the movie has a theme reminiscent of Conrad's Heart of Darkness, it also reminds me of the Michael Caine and Sean Connery film The Man Who Would Be King.

    It is about modern men finding their destiny by returning to the primitive and savage.

    Milius' skill as a director and story teller allows him to suggest that what is savage and primitive may depend on one's perspective. Certainly by the end of the film the British and especially the Japanese come off much more savage and primitive than the Borneo tribesmen. Yet because of Milius' innate conservatism (?) or realism, he never falls into the PC multicultural Avatar formula of White Man equals evil (in fact for the most part the Japanese are the heavies in the film).

    If you like Gibson's Apocalypto (another great film in my opinion) you will probably like this one.

    Thumbs up!

  77. @Jefferson
    Speaking of Hollywood once in awhile doing something politically incorrect, there is a SNL skit with a White guy and Keenan Thompson as the ghost of MLK where it is mentioned that every street named after him is located in a high crime area and Keenan's MLK character finds this disappointing. The skit was guilty of the racial sin of noticing.

    Replies: @Harry Baldwin

    Key & Peele do some great non-pc stuff. They recently noticed that blacks are not all that comfortable about gays in this sketch about the Gay Wedding Planner:

  78. @Harry Baldwin
    Director Michael Mann is a political liberal but a gun enthusiast. He attended Gunsite, the firearms training center in Paulden, Arizona, and used to compete in the Southwest Combat Pistol League. Mann took James Caan to Gunsite to prepare for his role in "Thief" and cast nationally-ranked IPSC shooter Jim Zubiena as an assassin on Miami Vice,. Zubiena demonstrated his fast draw here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fK0yLjVk0eM

    The firearms aspects of Mann's films are conspicuously well done--it's the human element that generally falls short.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    The firearms aspects of Mann’s films are conspicuously well done–it’s the human element that generally falls short.

    A little too much in fact. In “Heat,” for example, bank robbers doing bounding overwatch. Really, bank robbers?

    I think Mann also makes sure that all the firearms have correct sound/report. No SxS shotguns with slide racking noise in his films.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    @Twinkie

    Mann had an ex-SAS commando advising him on Heat. The SAS guy coordinated that shootouts (although you don't need to be an elite commando to know about bounding overwatch - I learned that in regular old infantry training when I was in the Army Reserve).

    As for the bank robbers in Heat being unrealistic in their proficiency, it's a movie (though Mann has claimed some elements were borrowed from real cops & crooks he knew in Chicago). In reality, most criminals are pretty stupid.

    In his autobiography, Travels, Michael Crichton wrote about shadowing an LAPD detective to research a book (maybe Rising Sun?). The detective got a lead on one suspect by rubbing the side of a pencil on a blank notepad on which the idiot had written something. Wasn't exactly rocket science.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Twinkie, @Harry Baldwin

  79. “Off-topic:

    A PC article on Oregon’s lack of POC

    http://gizmodo.com/oregon-was-founded-as-a-racist-utopia-1539567040/+charliejane”

    You know the largest city in the state of Oregon is not very Black when even Toronto has a higher percentage of Blacks than Portland.

  80. John Milius is like Ramzan Kadryov in that our host can never write too much about them. I wonder if they’d get along? How’d you like to be a fly on the wall when they sat down?

  81. @Jefferson
    "Zionists in Israel love guns… but not in Arab hands."

    Guns in the hands of Arab Muslims is generally not a good thing since they usually use it for evil. Most of them use it to carry out violence in the name of their pedophile prophet Muhammad.

    Bat shit crazy religious extremists plus guns = toxic.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @gzu, @gzu

    Guns in the hands of Arab Muslims is generally not a good thing since they usually use it for evil.

    Outside of lily-white New England, did any of the states that ratified the Second Amendment allow blacks to possess firearms?

  82. Website glitch? – : The photo of Spielberg-cum-blunderbuss doesn’t display here, even when I click “Show Picture.” Funny, because at each one of the first two earlier visits I made, the photo displayed. Now? BLANK.

    Would this Disappearing Snapshot Mystery have perhaps something to do with Mr. Unz’s coding of new really neat & keen site features?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Auntie Analogue

    The Italian master gunsmith's website where that one picture of Mr. Spielberg shooting seems to have disappeared. Interesting ...

    Well, it will probably be back tomorrow. If not, very interesting ...

    Replies: @Auntie Analogue

  83. @Twinkie
    @Harry Baldwin


    The firearms aspects of Mann’s films are conspicuously well done–it’s the human element that generally falls short.
     
    A little too much in fact. In "Heat," for example, bank robbers doing bounding overwatch. Really, bank robbers?

    I think Mann also makes sure that all the firearms have correct sound/report. No SxS shotguns with slide racking noise in his films.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen

    Mann had an ex-SAS commando advising him on Heat. The SAS guy coordinated that shootouts (although you don’t need to be an elite commando to know about bounding overwatch – I learned that in regular old infantry training when I was in the Army Reserve).

    As for the bank robbers in Heat being unrealistic in their proficiency, it’s a movie (though Mann has claimed some elements were borrowed from real cops & crooks he knew in Chicago). In reality, most criminals are pretty stupid.

    In his autobiography, Travels, Michael Crichton wrote about shadowing an LAPD detective to research a book (maybe Rising Sun?). The detective got a lead on one suspect by rubbing the side of a pencil on a blank notepad on which the idiot had written something. Wasn’t exactly rocket science.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Dave Pinsen

    A year later after "Heat" came out there was a real bank robbery shootout in North Hollywood much like the one in "Heat." But 17 years later that remains pretty much peak awesomeness for recent American criminals.

    I suspect in other parts of the world where robbers have some credibility as freedom fighters, you get a higher quality of criminal than in the U.S. Some of the Chechen raids into Russia in the 1990s and 2000s were epic. Similarly, Jesse James' early train robberies, when he still had his core of trained Confederate commandos who were also his relatives, were impressive.

    Steven Hunter says the guy who is hard to explain is John Dillinger. He really was a master leader of armed men.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen, @Twinkie

    , @Twinkie
    @Dave Pinsen


    although you don’t need to be an elite commando to know about bounding overwatch – I learned that in regular old infantry training when I was in the Army Reserve
     
    Yeah, well, knowing the basic concept behind bounding overwatch and executing fire & movement smoothly under heavy gunfire with three men like champs are two very different things.

    As with most things, shooting and related skills are highly perishable and require constant practice. You add movement the complexity goes up exponentially. What were these criminals doing in their spare time? Hanging out at the local paintball fields, practicing small unit tactics?

    As for the bank robbers in Heat being unrealistic in their proficiency, it’s a movie
     
    Of course. I'd say about 95% of gun handling in movies is pitiful and unrealistic to be generous. Then the remaining 5% goes the other way (another example of that is "The Way of the Gun" - when I saw the gun handling in that, I realized right away some "operator" might have lent his expertise; later I found out that the brother of the director was a Navy SEAL).

    In reality, most criminals are pretty stupid.
     
    Yes, SIR!

    Much of the danger from criminals comes from their idiocy, poor judgment, and unpredictability, not from abundance of diabolical, villainous competence as in films. And that's one of the reasons why I like the TV Show "Justified." Aside from the funny dialogue, much of the plot revolves around the repercussions of criminal stupidity.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen

    , @Harry Baldwin
    @Dave Pinsen

    The detective got a lead on one suspect by rubbing the side of a pencil on a blank notepad on which the idiot had written something. Wasn’t exactly rocket science.

    I recall "The Dude" used this trick when he was at Jackie Treehorn's house in Malibu. What he got was a sketch of a penis.

    Replies: @Jim

  84. @Rob McX
    I'm sure most film stars who are household names depend on guns for their safety, whether carried by themselves or their security people. Those who support gun control are hypocrites, even if they never handle a firearm themselves.

    Replies: @donut

  85. @Dave Pinsen
    @Twinkie

    Mann had an ex-SAS commando advising him on Heat. The SAS guy coordinated that shootouts (although you don't need to be an elite commando to know about bounding overwatch - I learned that in regular old infantry training when I was in the Army Reserve).

    As for the bank robbers in Heat being unrealistic in their proficiency, it's a movie (though Mann has claimed some elements were borrowed from real cops & crooks he knew in Chicago). In reality, most criminals are pretty stupid.

    In his autobiography, Travels, Michael Crichton wrote about shadowing an LAPD detective to research a book (maybe Rising Sun?). The detective got a lead on one suspect by rubbing the side of a pencil on a blank notepad on which the idiot had written something. Wasn't exactly rocket science.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Twinkie, @Harry Baldwin

    A year later after “Heat” came out there was a real bank robbery shootout in North Hollywood much like the one in “Heat.” But 17 years later that remains pretty much peak awesomeness for recent American criminals.

    I suspect in other parts of the world where robbers have some credibility as freedom fighters, you get a higher quality of criminal than in the U.S. Some of the Chechen raids into Russia in the 1990s and 2000s were epic. Similarly, Jesse James’ early train robberies, when he still had his core of trained Confederate commandos who were also his relatives, were impressive.

    Steven Hunter says the guy who is hard to explain is John Dillinger. He really was a master leader of armed men.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    @Steve Sailer

    I remember that one - the crooks wore armor, and the cops had to borrow heavier weapons from a local gun store.

    Hunter also wrote highly of Clyde Barrow in that piece you shared once, saying if he had been born 10 years later, he'd have made a great infantry 2nd lieutenant.

    Incidentally, L.A. Takedown - Mann's 1989 first stab at his Heat concept - is available on YouTube: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iFsPDzSbgts#

    It's actually not bad.

    , @Twinkie
    @Steve Sailer


    A year later after “Heat” came out there was a real bank robbery shootout in North Hollywood much like the one in “Heat.” But 17 years later that remains pretty much peak awesomeness for recent American criminals.
     
    Those morons wished they were like the fictitious villains in "Heat." Unlike the nearly invincible and commando-like bank robbers in the film, the two North Hollywood shootout losers just showed up in body armor and attempted a smash & grab of a bank.

    At the time the LAPD patrol officers were only armed with handguns and shotguns, which were mostly ineffective against the body armor (I don't recall what level body armor it was). Once the SWAT arrived and some of the officers borrowed some AR-15's from a nearby gun store, the fight was over pretty soon, with one of the morons shooting himself accidentally!

    That episode was neither epic nor awesome in anyway. Just moronic. Thankfully I think no one else died but the would-be criminals.

    It did however start or accelerate the process of local police forces receiving military surplus weapons from the DoD, which apparently led to massacres of black bodies in Ferguson.


    I suspect in other parts of the world where robbers have some credibility as freedom fighters, you get a higher quality of criminal than in the U.S. Some of the Chechen raids into Russia in the 1990s and 2000s were epic.
     
    Yes, but those were serious combat veterans, acting in relatively large groups. Besides, when you extort money from the terrified local population you purport to free, it's not a crime, you are merely seeking voluntary contributions to the glorious war of national liberation. Just ask the various splinter groups of the IRA.

    And smart, successful criminals don't make the news.

    BTW, as far as an "epic" shootout with criminals go, this took the cake: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout.

    This actually led to some significant changes.

    Replies: @Anon, @Dave Pinsen

  86. @Auntie Analogue
    Website glitch? - : The photo of Spielberg-cum-blunderbuss doesn't display here, even when I click "Show Picture." Funny, because at each one of the first two earlier visits I made, the photo displayed. Now? BLANK.

    Would this Disappearing Snapshot Mystery have perhaps something to do with Mr. Unz's coding of new really neat & keen site features?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    The Italian master gunsmith’s website where that one picture of Mr. Spielberg shooting seems to have disappeared. Interesting …

    Well, it will probably be back tomorrow. If not, very interesting …

    • Replies: @Auntie Analogue
    @Steve Sailer

    Thank you, Mr. Sailer. for letting us know that the Disappearing Snapshot Mystery has now become the Disappearing Website Mystery.

    The Plot Thickens, as they say.

  87. @Steve Sailer
    @Auntie Analogue

    The Italian master gunsmith's website where that one picture of Mr. Spielberg shooting seems to have disappeared. Interesting ...

    Well, it will probably be back tomorrow. If not, very interesting ...

    Replies: @Auntie Analogue

    Thank you, Mr. Sailer. for letting us know that the Disappearing Snapshot Mystery has now become the Disappearing Website Mystery.

    The Plot Thickens, as they say.

  88. @Crawfurdmuir
    @Anonymous

    Anon. wrote: "I always thought that Jews had a quasi religious dislike of killing animals for sport."

    I wonder how connected with religion this really is, or if it is more a reflection of the collectivist and anti-Christian prejudices of eastern European Ashkenazic Jews living in a part of the world where hunting was a privilege of the Christian gentry and nobility.

    Upper-middle-class Jews in Britain often bought country estates and adopted the recreations of the landed class. Siegfried Sassoon's semi-autobiographical "Memoirs of a Fox-Hunting Man" is a minor classic of English literature. Several members of the English branch of the Rothschild family were enthusiasts of driven bird shooting.

    Replies: @slumber_j, @kaganovitch

    Anon. wrote: “I always thought that Jews had a quasi religious dislike of killing animals for sport.”

    This is indeed so; Rabbi Ezekiel Landau (chief rabbi of prague in the mid 18th century) authored the classic responsa on the subject. On the other hand hollywood moguls are not the most observant of jews. Fwiw Rabbi Landau is , somewhat surprisingly,mildly sympathetic to his interlocutor’s status seeking desire to hunt with his noble aquaintances, and frowns on hunting for other reasons.

  89. @Steve Sailer
    @Dave Pinsen

    A year later after "Heat" came out there was a real bank robbery shootout in North Hollywood much like the one in "Heat." But 17 years later that remains pretty much peak awesomeness for recent American criminals.

    I suspect in other parts of the world where robbers have some credibility as freedom fighters, you get a higher quality of criminal than in the U.S. Some of the Chechen raids into Russia in the 1990s and 2000s were epic. Similarly, Jesse James' early train robberies, when he still had his core of trained Confederate commandos who were also his relatives, were impressive.

    Steven Hunter says the guy who is hard to explain is John Dillinger. He really was a master leader of armed men.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen, @Twinkie

    I remember that one – the crooks wore armor, and the cops had to borrow heavier weapons from a local gun store.

    Hunter also wrote highly of Clyde Barrow in that piece you shared once, saying if he had been born 10 years later, he’d have made a great infantry 2nd lieutenant.

    Incidentally, L.A. Takedown – Mann’s 1989 first stab at his Heat concept – is available on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFsPDzSbgts#

    It’s actually not bad.

  90. @Dave Pinsen
    @Twinkie

    Mann had an ex-SAS commando advising him on Heat. The SAS guy coordinated that shootouts (although you don't need to be an elite commando to know about bounding overwatch - I learned that in regular old infantry training when I was in the Army Reserve).

    As for the bank robbers in Heat being unrealistic in their proficiency, it's a movie (though Mann has claimed some elements were borrowed from real cops & crooks he knew in Chicago). In reality, most criminals are pretty stupid.

    In his autobiography, Travels, Michael Crichton wrote about shadowing an LAPD detective to research a book (maybe Rising Sun?). The detective got a lead on one suspect by rubbing the side of a pencil on a blank notepad on which the idiot had written something. Wasn't exactly rocket science.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Twinkie, @Harry Baldwin

    although you don’t need to be an elite commando to know about bounding overwatch – I learned that in regular old infantry training when I was in the Army Reserve

    Yeah, well, knowing the basic concept behind bounding overwatch and executing fire & movement smoothly under heavy gunfire with three men like champs are two very different things.

    As with most things, shooting and related skills are highly perishable and require constant practice. You add movement the complexity goes up exponentially. What were these criminals doing in their spare time? Hanging out at the local paintball fields, practicing small unit tactics?

    As for the bank robbers in Heat being unrealistic in their proficiency, it’s a movie

    Of course. I’d say about 95% of gun handling in movies is pitiful and unrealistic to be generous. Then the remaining 5% goes the other way (another example of that is “The Way of the Gun” – when I saw the gun handling in that, I realized right away some “operator” might have lent his expertise; later I found out that the brother of the director was a Navy SEAL).

    In reality, most criminals are pretty stupid.

    Yes, SIR!

    Much of the danger from criminals comes from their idiocy, poor judgment, and unpredictability, not from abundance of diabolical, villainous competence as in films. And that’s one of the reasons why I like the TV Show “Justified.” Aside from the funny dialogue, much of the plot revolves around the repercussions of criminal stupidity.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    @Twinkie

    I like Justified too. Though they just killed off their biggest local moron character.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  91. @Steve Sailer
    @Dave Pinsen

    A year later after "Heat" came out there was a real bank robbery shootout in North Hollywood much like the one in "Heat." But 17 years later that remains pretty much peak awesomeness for recent American criminals.

    I suspect in other parts of the world where robbers have some credibility as freedom fighters, you get a higher quality of criminal than in the U.S. Some of the Chechen raids into Russia in the 1990s and 2000s were epic. Similarly, Jesse James' early train robberies, when he still had his core of trained Confederate commandos who were also his relatives, were impressive.

    Steven Hunter says the guy who is hard to explain is John Dillinger. He really was a master leader of armed men.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen, @Twinkie

    A year later after “Heat” came out there was a real bank robbery shootout in North Hollywood much like the one in “Heat.” But 17 years later that remains pretty much peak awesomeness for recent American criminals.

    Those morons wished they were like the fictitious villains in “Heat.” Unlike the nearly invincible and commando-like bank robbers in the film, the two North Hollywood shootout losers just showed up in body armor and attempted a smash & grab of a bank.

    At the time the LAPD patrol officers were only armed with handguns and shotguns, which were mostly ineffective against the body armor (I don’t recall what level body armor it was). Once the SWAT arrived and some of the officers borrowed some AR-15’s from a nearby gun store, the fight was over pretty soon, with one of the morons shooting himself accidentally!

    That episode was neither epic nor awesome in anyway. Just moronic. Thankfully I think no one else died but the would-be criminals.

    It did however start or accelerate the process of local police forces receiving military surplus weapons from the DoD, which apparently led to massacres of black bodies in Ferguson.

    I suspect in other parts of the world where robbers have some credibility as freedom fighters, you get a higher quality of criminal than in the U.S. Some of the Chechen raids into Russia in the 1990s and 2000s were epic.

    Yes, but those were serious combat veterans, acting in relatively large groups. Besides, when you extort money from the terrified local population you purport to free, it’s not a crime, you are merely seeking voluntary contributions to the glorious war of national liberation. Just ask the various splinter groups of the IRA.

    And smart, successful criminals don’t make the news.

    BTW, as far as an “epic” shootout with criminals go, this took the cake: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout.

    This actually led to some significant changes.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Twinkie


    And smart, successful criminals don’t make the news.

    BTW, as far as an “epic” shootout with criminals go, this took the cake: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout.
     
    Absolutely right about the dim bulbs showing up on the front page. These gunsels had good gun-handling skills on account of their military experience, but their exploits screamed room temperature IQ.
    , @Dave Pinsen
    @Twinkie

    The robbers in Heat weren't invincible - 2 didn't survive the big shoutout, and a third got wounded.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  92. @Twinkie

    there’s a great Milius documentary on Netflix right now
     
    Fantastic documentary.

    One of my favorite films is "Farewell to the King" by Milius: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0xYAxDPUmQ

    It has the best lines in a movie, ever:

    Capt. Fairbourne: What do you want?

    Learoyd: Freedom, to be like we are.

    Capt. Fairbourne: Anything else?

    Learoyd: Guns. So they can't take the freedom away.

    Capt. Fairbourne: Well, I'll see what I can do.

    Learoyd: And grenades, mortars and mines, so they can't take the guns away.
     

    Replies: @Seneca

    I agree Farewell To The King is a great film, well worth seeing.

    Nick Nolte is sublime as a Colonel Kurtz type character.

    He plays an American deserter who becomes king of a tribe in the jungles of Borneo during WWII.

    While the movie has a theme reminiscent of Conrad’s Heart of Darkness, it also reminds me of the Michael Caine and Sean Connery film The Man Who Would Be King.

    It is about modern men finding their destiny by returning to the primitive and savage.

    Milius’ skill as a director and story teller allows him to suggest that what is savage and primitive may depend on one’s perspective. Certainly by the end of the film the British and especially the Japanese come off much more savage and primitive than the Borneo tribesmen. Yet because of Milius’ innate conservatism (?) or realism, he never falls into the PC multicultural Avatar formula of White Man equals evil (in fact for the most part the Japanese are the heavies in the film).

    If you like Gibson’s Apocalypto (another great film in my opinion) you will probably like this one.

    Thumbs up!

  93. @Embittered Former Republican
    Did anyone post "Guns for me but not for thee" yet?

    Replies: @Lurker

    I was going to…

  94. @WhatEvvs
    @Anonymous

    I think Anon#1 is right - Jews do on the whole disapprove of this kind of hunting:

    https://www.thedodo.com/-kid-rock-kills-cougar-943386525.html

    That photo turned my stomach. Commercial hunting of animals that have already been hunted nearly to extinction makes me want to vomit.

    Hunting animals for food - no problem. Culling - same. If the animal is disturbed - ditto.

    But for blood sport - why? I don't see one good reason for this, other than twisted ego.

    Ted Nugent and Kid Rock used to be funny. Not anymore.

    Replies: @Lurker

    I see Kid Rock as an absurd, posturing faggot – desperate for any macho authenticity he can accquire and failing every time. Vile.

    • Replies: @WhatEvvs
    @Lurker

    Yeah, he and his kind are jokes.

    I'm very pro-hunter. Hunters are usually the most responsible of gun owners. True hunters, that is. These are fake hunters.

    These commercial mountain lion hunting outfits are disgusting. It's nothing close to a fair fight. The animal is cornered by professionals and by the time the amateur kills it, the lion is exhausted. Mountain lions are magnificent animals and have been eliminated from most of their previous habitats. Only 30m000 left in the lower 48.

    I hate the idea of turning the US into a neo-Europe. We need wildlife. If these assholes want the country to be devoid of apex predators, they should go live in Belgium.

    Rant over.

  95. @Jefferson
    "Zionists in Israel love guns… but not in Arab hands."

    Guns in the hands of Arab Muslims is generally not a good thing since they usually use it for evil. Most of them use it to carry out violence in the name of their pedophile prophet Muhammad.

    Bat shit crazy religious extremists plus guns = toxic.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @gzu, @gzu

    Can somebody ban this despicable troll?

    Who gives a shit if Mohammad was a pedophile? So was Thomas Jefferson.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @gzu


    Who gives a shit if Mohammad was a pedophile? So was Thomas Jefferson.
     
    I was not aware that Thomas Jefferson raped a pre-pubescent child. And he neither claimed to be the last prophet of God nor exhort his followers to go forth and pillage, murder, and rape "unbelievers" in the name of God.

    Replies: @Truth

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @gzu


    Who gives a shit if Mohammad was a pedophile? So was Thomas Jefferson.

     

    Did Jefferson also order the execution of poetesses who mocked him in verse?
  96. @Jefferson
    "Zionists in Israel love guns… but not in Arab hands."

    Guns in the hands of Arab Muslims is generally not a good thing since they usually use it for evil. Most of them use it to carry out violence in the name of their pedophile prophet Muhammad.

    Bat shit crazy religious extremists plus guns = toxic.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @gzu, @gzu

    ” Most of them use it to carry out violence in the name of their pedophile prophet Muhammad.”

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

    Do you even know what “most” means you poltroon?

  97. @JustAnotherGuyWitha1911
    I think this would be considered on topic.

    http://youtu.be/-TC2xTCb_GU

    Steve Lee - "I Like Guns" Lyrics

    I like guns I like the way they look
    I like the shining steel and the polished wood
    I don't care if they're big or small
    If they're for sale - hell I want'em all

    I like guns
    I like guns
    I like guns

    I really like .22 Mag
    .45 lever with Winchester tag
    I like my double barrel, had it most of my life
    .357 was a present from my wife

    I like guns I like the way they look
    I like the shining steel and the polished wood
    I don't care if they're big or small
    If they're for sale - hell I wanna them all

    I like guns
    I like guns
    I like guns

    'Cause I don't really get all the fuss
    Why they are trying to take guns off of us
    'Cause I aint gonna shoot anyone
    And no one shoots at me 'cause I got a gun

    I like guns I like the way they look
    I like the shining steel and the polished wood
    I don't care if they're big or small
    If they're for sale - hell I wanna them all

    I like guns
    I like guns
    I like guns

    God made the animals, god made the trees
    God made you and hell he even made me
    He gave me this voice so I could be a singer
    So you tell me why I've got a trigger finger

    I like guns I like the way they look
    I like the shining steel and the polished wood
    I don't care if they're big or small
    If they're for sale - hell I wanna them all

    I like guns
    I like guns
    I like guns

    Replies: @David

    Thanks for that. I enjoyed it a lot. It’s a shame that America can’t find fulfillment in just growing fine citizens like that one.

  98. @Dave Pinsen
    @Twinkie

    Mann had an ex-SAS commando advising him on Heat. The SAS guy coordinated that shootouts (although you don't need to be an elite commando to know about bounding overwatch - I learned that in regular old infantry training when I was in the Army Reserve).

    As for the bank robbers in Heat being unrealistic in their proficiency, it's a movie (though Mann has claimed some elements were borrowed from real cops & crooks he knew in Chicago). In reality, most criminals are pretty stupid.

    In his autobiography, Travels, Michael Crichton wrote about shadowing an LAPD detective to research a book (maybe Rising Sun?). The detective got a lead on one suspect by rubbing the side of a pencil on a blank notepad on which the idiot had written something. Wasn't exactly rocket science.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Twinkie, @Harry Baldwin

    The detective got a lead on one suspect by rubbing the side of a pencil on a blank notepad on which the idiot had written something. Wasn’t exactly rocket science.

    I recall “The Dude” used this trick when he was at Jackie Treehorn’s house in Malibu. What he got was a sketch of a penis.

    • Replies: @Jim
    @Harry Baldwin

    That trick reminds me of the time I was rear-ended by someone who refused to give me any information and left. The insurance adjuster placed a sheet of paper on my back rubber bumper and was able to get the license plate number althought it was not visible to the eye.

  99. Don’t you love it! We have foreign clowns like Vanita Gupta lording over us telling us how racist America is. More on her http://news.yahoo.com/ferguson-justice-department-vanita-gupta-153750781.html

    Actually her folks are immigrants to this racist nation, she was born here but spent formative years in Europe.. This is how we get paid back for letting her parents in. She worked for the ACLU.

    Gupta’s a racist. She traces her ancestry to a racist country, too, where poor white people are turned away at the door, but the natives would ruthlessly discriminate against them, if they had the chance. Her parents are racists, too, and raised their daughter in their country’s racist tradition.

    A little too much in fact. In “Heat,” for example, bank robbers doing bounding overwatch. Really, bank robbers?

    It’s more like they were slumming, robbing the bank, because they knew there’d be so much money there. Not that bounding overwatch is that complicated. It just sounds better than “you cover me while I move, then I cover you while you move.”

    (although you don’t need to be an elite commando to know about bounding overwatch – I learned that in regular old infantry training when I was in the Army Reserve)

    It’s in military manuals, probably lots of them. E.g., I know it’s in the standard Ranger manual. Apropos of I dunno, but lots of gun nuts are better able to maintain their weapons than the average grunt is; the impression I get of the latter is that he just hands a malfunctioning weapon over to an armorer first chance if it needs more than a good cleaning.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Svigor


    Not that bounding overwatch is that complicated. It just sounds better than “you cover me while I move, then I cover you while you move.”
     
    Again, easy enough to understand the simple concept, not so easy to do smoothly with only three shooters while under heavy fire.

    lots of gun nuts are better able to maintain their weapons than the average grunt is; the impression I get of the latter is that he just hands a malfunctioning weapon over to an armorer first chance if it needs more than a good cleaning.
     
    A lot of gun nuts clean their guns excessively, because it's a hobby to them. They apparently never heard of Jeff Cooper's maxim that amateurs strive for perfection while professionals seek adequacy.

    Also, to be fair to the "average grunts," generally you are not allowed to do significant repairs and maintenance work on your own and are instead required to hand over the weapons to armorers, you know, actual repair professionals, for such work. There is a reason why there is the word "field" in field stripping a weapon.

    Replies: @Ex Submarine Officer

    , @Dave Pinsen
    @Svigor

    They made kind of a big deal about cleaning your weapons in infantry training (and in ROTC too), partly because the M-16A2 would stop firing pretty soon if you didn't, and maybe partly as a form of scut work. One time, after a bivouac, I came up with a little shortcut. I doused the inside and all the working parts with that oil or whatever we used to clean the parts before the march back. Then, when we got back, I hosed it out in a sink. That got rid of most of the carbon deposits.

    I thought at the time rifles out to have circulating oil and a filter like a car to self-clean carbon deposits. I guess the other approach is to just build something robust that fires when it's dirty, like an AK.

  100. @gzu
    @Jefferson

    Can somebody ban this despicable troll?

    Who gives a shit if Mohammad was a pedophile? So was Thomas Jefferson.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Reg Cæsar

    Who gives a shit if Mohammad was a pedophile? So was Thomas Jefferson.

    I was not aware that Thomas Jefferson raped a pre-pubescent child. And he neither claimed to be the last prophet of God nor exhort his followers to go forth and pillage, murder, and rape “unbelievers” in the name of God.

    • Replies: @Truth
    @Twinkie

    Thomas Jefferson started is affair with his wife's sister Sally Hemmings when the latter was 14.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @WhatEvvs

  101. @Svigor

    Don’t you love it! We have foreign clowns like Vanita Gupta lording over us telling us how racist America is. More on her http://news.yahoo.com/ferguson-justice-department-vanita-gupta-153750781.html

    Actually her folks are immigrants to this racist nation, she was born here but spent formative years in Europe.. This is how we get paid back for letting her parents in. She worked for the ACLU.
     
    Gupta's a racist. She traces her ancestry to a racist country, too, where poor white people are turned away at the door, but the natives would ruthlessly discriminate against them, if they had the chance. Her parents are racists, too, and raised their daughter in their country's racist tradition.

    A little too much in fact. In “Heat,” for example, bank robbers doing bounding overwatch. Really, bank robbers?
     
    It's more like they were slumming, robbing the bank, because they knew there'd be so much money there. Not that bounding overwatch is that complicated. It just sounds better than "you cover me while I move, then I cover you while you move."

    (although you don’t need to be an elite commando to know about bounding overwatch – I learned that in regular old infantry training when I was in the Army Reserve)
     
    It's in military manuals, probably lots of them. E.g., I know it's in the standard Ranger manual. Apropos of I dunno, but lots of gun nuts are better able to maintain their weapons than the average grunt is; the impression I get of the latter is that he just hands a malfunctioning weapon over to an armorer first chance if it needs more than a good cleaning.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Dave Pinsen

    Not that bounding overwatch is that complicated. It just sounds better than “you cover me while I move, then I cover you while you move.”

    Again, easy enough to understand the simple concept, not so easy to do smoothly with only three shooters while under heavy fire.

    lots of gun nuts are better able to maintain their weapons than the average grunt is; the impression I get of the latter is that he just hands a malfunctioning weapon over to an armorer first chance if it needs more than a good cleaning.

    A lot of gun nuts clean their guns excessively, because it’s a hobby to them. They apparently never heard of Jeff Cooper’s maxim that amateurs strive for perfection while professionals seek adequacy.

    Also, to be fair to the “average grunts,” generally you are not allowed to do significant repairs and maintenance work on your own and are instead required to hand over the weapons to armorers, you know, actual repair professionals, for such work. There is a reason why there is the word “field” in field stripping a weapon.

    • Replies: @Ex Submarine Officer
    @Twinkie


    Also, to be fair to the “average grunts,” generally you are not allowed to do significant repairs and maintenance work on your own and are instead required to hand over the weapons to armorers, you know, actual repair professionals, for such work. There is a reason why there is the word “field” in field stripping a weapon.
     
    Worse than that, the average grunt is going to get in a lot of trouble if he is caught disassembling his weapon beyond the bounds of field stripping. Part of the early training, in USMC anyhow, with rifles is imprinting this taboo upon recruits.

    This taboo also extends to unauthorized cleaning materials/methods, but those boundaries are not necessarily so well respected. Flushing out the the trigger mechanism area of an M-16 under a shower (and of course, drying and lubricating) beats the tedious work of picking at minute bits of sand/dust in the relatively intricate mechanism.

    Your average grunt also spends a lot of time developing expertise in how to keep his weapon from needing to be cleaned, prevention, as it were, and many can be quite clever in this regard.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  102. @Anonymous
    I always thought that Jews had a quasi religious dislike of killing animals for sport.

    Replies: @donut, @Pangur, @Crawfurdmuir, @Karl

    >> I always thought that Jews had a quasi religious dislike of killing animals for sport.

    There’s a hunting season on the Golan Heights, every year. It all gets eaten. Especially the wild boar. Israel has a (small) corps of Game Wardens.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Karl


    There’s a hunting season on the Golan Heights, every year. It all gets eaten. Especially the wild boar.
     
    I give up. By whom?

    Are there Christians nearby? Can the Druze partake?

    An Indonesian student once told me his father loved to hunt wild boar for sport. But he had to sell whatever he caught.
  103. @Harry Baldwin
    @Dave Pinsen

    The detective got a lead on one suspect by rubbing the side of a pencil on a blank notepad on which the idiot had written something. Wasn’t exactly rocket science.

    I recall "The Dude" used this trick when he was at Jackie Treehorn's house in Malibu. What he got was a sketch of a penis.

    Replies: @Jim

    That trick reminds me of the time I was rear-ended by someone who refused to give me any information and left. The insurance adjuster placed a sheet of paper on my back rubber bumper and was able to get the license plate number althought it was not visible to the eye.

  104. The 2015 version of that shot in ET would have to be altered again, to put the authorities in full-on military tactical gear. Maybe make those tame little K-cars into armored personnel carriers.

    • Replies: @Scotty G. Vito
    @Dennis Dale

    They'd probably also be wearing the Ebola spacesuits, just in case

  105. I’d be more interested in the gun control opinions of Milius’s son (by gentile ex-wife, not current one) who worked for the Los Angeles legal office, either city prosecutor or public defender IIRC. Whatever intrinsic fascination attaches to gun details, or quoting T.R., or just the urge to macho-flash one’s more uptight puritanical liberal friends, I am confident the folks on Spring Street aren’t in sync with that

  106. @Dennis Dale
    The 2015 version of that shot in ET would have to be altered again, to put the authorities in full-on military tactical gear. Maybe make those tame little K-cars into armored personnel carriers.

    Replies: @Scotty G. Vito

    They’d probably also be wearing the Ebola spacesuits, just in case

  107. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Twinkie
    @Steve Sailer


    A year later after “Heat” came out there was a real bank robbery shootout in North Hollywood much like the one in “Heat.” But 17 years later that remains pretty much peak awesomeness for recent American criminals.
     
    Those morons wished they were like the fictitious villains in "Heat." Unlike the nearly invincible and commando-like bank robbers in the film, the two North Hollywood shootout losers just showed up in body armor and attempted a smash & grab of a bank.

    At the time the LAPD patrol officers were only armed with handguns and shotguns, which were mostly ineffective against the body armor (I don't recall what level body armor it was). Once the SWAT arrived and some of the officers borrowed some AR-15's from a nearby gun store, the fight was over pretty soon, with one of the morons shooting himself accidentally!

    That episode was neither epic nor awesome in anyway. Just moronic. Thankfully I think no one else died but the would-be criminals.

    It did however start or accelerate the process of local police forces receiving military surplus weapons from the DoD, which apparently led to massacres of black bodies in Ferguson.


    I suspect in other parts of the world where robbers have some credibility as freedom fighters, you get a higher quality of criminal than in the U.S. Some of the Chechen raids into Russia in the 1990s and 2000s were epic.
     
    Yes, but those were serious combat veterans, acting in relatively large groups. Besides, when you extort money from the terrified local population you purport to free, it's not a crime, you are merely seeking voluntary contributions to the glorious war of national liberation. Just ask the various splinter groups of the IRA.

    And smart, successful criminals don't make the news.

    BTW, as far as an "epic" shootout with criminals go, this took the cake: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout.

    This actually led to some significant changes.

    Replies: @Anon, @Dave Pinsen

    And smart, successful criminals don’t make the news.

    BTW, as far as an “epic” shootout with criminals go, this took the cake: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout.

    Absolutely right about the dim bulbs showing up on the front page. These gunsels had good gun-handling skills on account of their military experience, but their exploits screamed room temperature IQ.

  108. WhatEvvs [AKA "Bemused"] says:
    @Lurker
    @WhatEvvs

    I see Kid Rock as an absurd, posturing faggot - desperate for any macho authenticity he can accquire and failing every time. Vile.

    Replies: @WhatEvvs

    Yeah, he and his kind are jokes.

    I’m very pro-hunter. Hunters are usually the most responsible of gun owners. True hunters, that is. These are fake hunters.

    These commercial mountain lion hunting outfits are disgusting. It’s nothing close to a fair fight. The animal is cornered by professionals and by the time the amateur kills it, the lion is exhausted. Mountain lions are magnificent animals and have been eliminated from most of their previous habitats. Only 30m000 left in the lower 48.

    I hate the idea of turning the US into a neo-Europe. We need wildlife. If these assholes want the country to be devoid of apex predators, they should go live in Belgium.

    Rant over.

  109. @Twinkie
    @Dave Pinsen


    although you don’t need to be an elite commando to know about bounding overwatch – I learned that in regular old infantry training when I was in the Army Reserve
     
    Yeah, well, knowing the basic concept behind bounding overwatch and executing fire & movement smoothly under heavy gunfire with three men like champs are two very different things.

    As with most things, shooting and related skills are highly perishable and require constant practice. You add movement the complexity goes up exponentially. What were these criminals doing in their spare time? Hanging out at the local paintball fields, practicing small unit tactics?

    As for the bank robbers in Heat being unrealistic in their proficiency, it’s a movie
     
    Of course. I'd say about 95% of gun handling in movies is pitiful and unrealistic to be generous. Then the remaining 5% goes the other way (another example of that is "The Way of the Gun" - when I saw the gun handling in that, I realized right away some "operator" might have lent his expertise; later I found out that the brother of the director was a Navy SEAL).

    In reality, most criminals are pretty stupid.
     
    Yes, SIR!

    Much of the danger from criminals comes from their idiocy, poor judgment, and unpredictability, not from abundance of diabolical, villainous competence as in films. And that's one of the reasons why I like the TV Show "Justified." Aside from the funny dialogue, much of the plot revolves around the repercussions of criminal stupidity.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen

    I like Justified too. Though they just killed off their biggest local moron character.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Dave Pinsen


    I like Justified too. Though they just killed off their biggest local moron character.
     
    No spoilers, please!

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen

  110. @Twinkie
    @Steve Sailer


    A year later after “Heat” came out there was a real bank robbery shootout in North Hollywood much like the one in “Heat.” But 17 years later that remains pretty much peak awesomeness for recent American criminals.
     
    Those morons wished they were like the fictitious villains in "Heat." Unlike the nearly invincible and commando-like bank robbers in the film, the two North Hollywood shootout losers just showed up in body armor and attempted a smash & grab of a bank.

    At the time the LAPD patrol officers were only armed with handguns and shotguns, which were mostly ineffective against the body armor (I don't recall what level body armor it was). Once the SWAT arrived and some of the officers borrowed some AR-15's from a nearby gun store, the fight was over pretty soon, with one of the morons shooting himself accidentally!

    That episode was neither epic nor awesome in anyway. Just moronic. Thankfully I think no one else died but the would-be criminals.

    It did however start or accelerate the process of local police forces receiving military surplus weapons from the DoD, which apparently led to massacres of black bodies in Ferguson.


    I suspect in other parts of the world where robbers have some credibility as freedom fighters, you get a higher quality of criminal than in the U.S. Some of the Chechen raids into Russia in the 1990s and 2000s were epic.
     
    Yes, but those were serious combat veterans, acting in relatively large groups. Besides, when you extort money from the terrified local population you purport to free, it's not a crime, you are merely seeking voluntary contributions to the glorious war of national liberation. Just ask the various splinter groups of the IRA.

    And smart, successful criminals don't make the news.

    BTW, as far as an "epic" shootout with criminals go, this took the cake: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout.

    This actually led to some significant changes.

    Replies: @Anon, @Dave Pinsen

    The robbers in Heat weren’t invincible – 2 didn’t survive the big shoutout, and a third got wounded.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Dave Pinsen


    The robbers in Heat weren’t invincible – 2 didn’t survive the big shoutout, and a third got wounded.
     
    In real life, they'd have all died exiting the bank.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen

  111. @Svigor

    Don’t you love it! We have foreign clowns like Vanita Gupta lording over us telling us how racist America is. More on her http://news.yahoo.com/ferguson-justice-department-vanita-gupta-153750781.html

    Actually her folks are immigrants to this racist nation, she was born here but spent formative years in Europe.. This is how we get paid back for letting her parents in. She worked for the ACLU.
     
    Gupta's a racist. She traces her ancestry to a racist country, too, where poor white people are turned away at the door, but the natives would ruthlessly discriminate against them, if they had the chance. Her parents are racists, too, and raised their daughter in their country's racist tradition.

    A little too much in fact. In “Heat,” for example, bank robbers doing bounding overwatch. Really, bank robbers?
     
    It's more like they were slumming, robbing the bank, because they knew there'd be so much money there. Not that bounding overwatch is that complicated. It just sounds better than "you cover me while I move, then I cover you while you move."

    (although you don’t need to be an elite commando to know about bounding overwatch – I learned that in regular old infantry training when I was in the Army Reserve)
     
    It's in military manuals, probably lots of them. E.g., I know it's in the standard Ranger manual. Apropos of I dunno, but lots of gun nuts are better able to maintain their weapons than the average grunt is; the impression I get of the latter is that he just hands a malfunctioning weapon over to an armorer first chance if it needs more than a good cleaning.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Dave Pinsen

    They made kind of a big deal about cleaning your weapons in infantry training (and in ROTC too), partly because the M-16A2 would stop firing pretty soon if you didn’t, and maybe partly as a form of scut work. One time, after a bivouac, I came up with a little shortcut. I doused the inside and all the working parts with that oil or whatever we used to clean the parts before the march back. Then, when we got back, I hosed it out in a sink. That got rid of most of the carbon deposits.

    I thought at the time rifles out to have circulating oil and a filter like a car to self-clean carbon deposits. I guess the other approach is to just build something robust that fires when it’s dirty, like an AK.

  112. Reminds me of something curious in the movie Boyhood. Throughout, we’re subjected to characters with unlikely liberal political convictions.

    Ethan Hawke, a blue collar Texan and deadbeat dad at the start of the movie, is a passionate and active supporter of Democratic candidates. Granted, maybe his deadbeat-ness makes him more likely to be a Democrat, but I’d expect him to be an apathetic one even if he was driven leftward by Bush. And working class White Texans have to skew, say, 75% Republican?

    Then Patricia Arquette, the mom, goes and gets re-married to a young Iraq vet who vocally disparages the war. Again, grunts are much more likely to have the belief set of Chris Kyle than that of Michael Moore.

    It struck me as the writers insinuating their politics into the characters at the expense of verisimilitude.

    But then at the end of the movie, the main character bonds with his stepmom’s father over guns. The step-grandfather gives the teenager a family heirloom gun and then takes him out shooting.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @DPG

    The dad in "Boyhood" (Ethan Hawke) is broke because he's trying to be an Austin singer-songwriter. But then he gives up his dreams of stardom and becomes an actuary, which is just about the highest minimum IQ career.

    I used to know a lot of Texans, and the characters in the movie seemed pretty representative of the kind of high IQ Texans I knew.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Harry Baldwin

  113. @Twinkie
    @Svigor


    Not that bounding overwatch is that complicated. It just sounds better than “you cover me while I move, then I cover you while you move.”
     
    Again, easy enough to understand the simple concept, not so easy to do smoothly with only three shooters while under heavy fire.

    lots of gun nuts are better able to maintain their weapons than the average grunt is; the impression I get of the latter is that he just hands a malfunctioning weapon over to an armorer first chance if it needs more than a good cleaning.
     
    A lot of gun nuts clean their guns excessively, because it's a hobby to them. They apparently never heard of Jeff Cooper's maxim that amateurs strive for perfection while professionals seek adequacy.

    Also, to be fair to the "average grunts," generally you are not allowed to do significant repairs and maintenance work on your own and are instead required to hand over the weapons to armorers, you know, actual repair professionals, for such work. There is a reason why there is the word "field" in field stripping a weapon.

    Replies: @Ex Submarine Officer

    Also, to be fair to the “average grunts,” generally you are not allowed to do significant repairs and maintenance work on your own and are instead required to hand over the weapons to armorers, you know, actual repair professionals, for such work. There is a reason why there is the word “field” in field stripping a weapon.

    Worse than that, the average grunt is going to get in a lot of trouble if he is caught disassembling his weapon beyond the bounds of field stripping. Part of the early training, in USMC anyhow, with rifles is imprinting this taboo upon recruits.

    This taboo also extends to unauthorized cleaning materials/methods, but those boundaries are not necessarily so well respected. Flushing out the the trigger mechanism area of an M-16 under a shower (and of course, drying and lubricating) beats the tedious work of picking at minute bits of sand/dust in the relatively intricate mechanism.

    Your average grunt also spends a lot of time developing expertise in how to keep his weapon from needing to be cleaned, prevention, as it were, and many can be quite clever in this regard.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Ex Submarine Officer


    This taboo also extends to unauthorized cleaning materials/methods, but those boundaries are not necessarily so well respected.
     
    You probably know that large amounts of unauthorized dry lubrication was brought to the war zones to run the gear seeing as the authorized CLP attracted dust like crazy.
  114. Hey, that’s twice in a thread I’ve agreed with Twinkie. When I was reading along, I was thinking no, the really seminal gunfight was the 1986 fight in Florida. They actually made a TV movie of it that got a lot of criticism–David Soul and Michael Gross played the bad guys and were, I thought, quite impressive. And while the movie was criticized for accuracy, I compared the movie to the FBI re-enactment and didn’t see many differences. But then, I know nothing of guns or law enforcement.

    While at the time everyone thought the FBI were incompetent, it turns out the real issue was bullet penetration. The bad guys were fatally wounded early on, but the bullets didn’t kill them immediately.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @education realist


    While at the time everyone thought the FBI were incompetent, it turns out the real issue was bullet penetration. The bad guys were fatally wounded early on, but the bullets didn’t kill them immediately.
     
    Correction: bullet penetration is where the FBI laid the blame. So we ended up with 10mm cartridges at first and then later downloaded to 40S&W. Now I hear FBI's new study says 9mmP is just as good as 40S&W in real life.

    In my view, the real culprit was the failure of small unit tactics and, by extension, training. The ordinary FBI special agents at the time, busy dealing with organized crime and white collar criminals, were not particularly well-trained to deal with aggressive, active shooters with heavier weapons.

    To the extent that equipment was at fault, the real lesson was not to bring handguns to a rifle fight. There is just a HUGE gulp in stopping power between handguns and rifles. The vast majority of handgun GSW victims survive. Rifle wounds tend to be much more fatal by orders of magnitude. (And paradoxically, among those who die from GSWs in terms of raw numbers, by far, 22LR takes the cake... from blood loss, of course.)
    , @Boomstick
    @education realist

    The two bad guys in the FBI shootout were well trained--the were ex-military, and one had been a Ranger. Almost all of the shooting by the bad guys was done by one of them.

    Mann is famous for giving his characters backstories that he tells the actors, but doesn't reveal in exposition to the audience. In Heat, Macauley had a USMC tattoo, so the military tactics are sort of plausible.

    The premise of Heat is based off a real-ish story of a criminal and cop in Chicago named Macauley and Adamson, back in the 60's.

    http://www.examiner.com/article/the-true-story-behind-heat

    The real Macauley was not quite a criminal mastermind, but he had some ambition.

  115. @Dave Pinsen
    @Twinkie

    I like Justified too. Though they just killed off their biggest local moron character.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    I like Justified too. Though they just killed off their biggest local moron character.

    No spoilers, please!

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    @Twinkie

    Sorry. Final season started Tuesday though, so catch up.

  116. @Dave Pinsen
    @Twinkie

    The robbers in Heat weren't invincible - 2 didn't survive the big shoutout, and a third got wounded.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    The robbers in Heat weren’t invincible – 2 didn’t survive the big shoutout, and a third got wounded.

    In real life, they’d have all died exiting the bank.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    @Twinkie

    Depends when the cops got there. Remember, they had disabled the bank's alarm systems ahead of time, so there wouldn't have been any cops waiting for them if Waingro and hadn't beaten the score out of Trejo so Hugh Benny could rat it out to Robbery Homicide.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  117. @education realist
    Hey, that's twice in a thread I've agreed with Twinkie. When I was reading along, I was thinking no, the really seminal gunfight was the 1986 fight in Florida. They actually made a TV movie of it that got a lot of criticism--David Soul and Michael Gross played the bad guys and were, I thought, quite impressive. And while the movie was criticized for accuracy, I compared the movie to the FBI re-enactment and didn't see many differences. But then, I know nothing of guns or law enforcement.

    While at the time everyone thought the FBI were incompetent, it turns out the real issue was bullet penetration. The bad guys were fatally wounded early on, but the bullets didn't kill them immediately.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Boomstick

    While at the time everyone thought the FBI were incompetent, it turns out the real issue was bullet penetration. The bad guys were fatally wounded early on, but the bullets didn’t kill them immediately.

    Correction: bullet penetration is where the FBI laid the blame. So we ended up with 10mm cartridges at first and then later downloaded to 40S&W. Now I hear FBI’s new study says 9mmP is just as good as 40S&W in real life.

    In my view, the real culprit was the failure of small unit tactics and, by extension, training. The ordinary FBI special agents at the time, busy dealing with organized crime and white collar criminals, were not particularly well-trained to deal with aggressive, active shooters with heavier weapons.

    To the extent that equipment was at fault, the real lesson was not to bring handguns to a rifle fight. There is just a HUGE gulp in stopping power between handguns and rifles. The vast majority of handgun GSW victims survive. Rifle wounds tend to be much more fatal by orders of magnitude. (And paradoxically, among those who die from GSWs in terms of raw numbers, by far, 22LR takes the cake… from blood loss, of course.)

  118. @DPG
    Reminds me of something curious in the movie Boyhood. Throughout, we're subjected to characters with unlikely liberal political convictions.

    Ethan Hawke, a blue collar Texan and deadbeat dad at the start of the movie, is a passionate and active supporter of Democratic candidates. Granted, maybe his deadbeat-ness makes him more likely to be a Democrat, but I'd expect him to be an apathetic one even if he was driven leftward by Bush. And working class White Texans have to skew, say, 75% Republican?

    Then Patricia Arquette, the mom, goes and gets re-married to a young Iraq vet who vocally disparages the war. Again, grunts are much more likely to have the belief set of Chris Kyle than that of Michael Moore.

    It struck me as the writers insinuating their politics into the characters at the expense of verisimilitude.

    But then at the end of the movie, the main character bonds with his stepmom's father over guns. The step-grandfather gives the teenager a family heirloom gun and then takes him out shooting.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    The dad in “Boyhood” (Ethan Hawke) is broke because he’s trying to be an Austin singer-songwriter. But then he gives up his dreams of stardom and becomes an actuary, which is just about the highest minimum IQ career.

    I used to know a lot of Texans, and the characters in the movie seemed pretty representative of the kind of high IQ Texans I knew.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Steve Sailer


    The dad in “Boyhood” (Ethan Hawke) is broke because he’s trying to be an Austin singer-songwriter. But then he gives up his dreams of stardom and becomes an actuary, which is just about the highest minimum IQ career.
     
    Yeah and according to the movie the only folks in Texas who vote Republican are angry racists with Confederate flags who chase off our noble election workers.

    Austin is indeed Berkeley-in-Texas and a People's Republic, but even so the depiction was too much for my taste. Just. So. Predictable.

    I must admit though Ethan Hawke's character finding happiness with the daughter of a sweet old Texas couple who gives the Bible (with Jesus' words redlined!) and a family heirloom of a side-by-side shotgun as a graduation gift to *his* son was very winsome.

    One more thing about that movie. What's with the real dark sister of the boy? Ethan Hawke and Patricia Arquette have a baby and give birth to someone who is ten shades darker? I bet my wife that she must be the director's daughter, and I won.

    She ruined the film by disturbing any semblance of believability. Rather as Sofia Coppola once did.

    Replies: @Truth

    , @Harry Baldwin
    @Steve Sailer

    From your review of Boyhood:

    The funniest scene in Boyhood comes in 2008 when the Bush-hating father is having his two kids hand out Obama lawn signs to neighbors. The angry white man with the Confederate flag tells them to get off his private property. At the next house, the nice white lady tells the adolescents how wonderful it is that today’s youth are getting involved in the democratic process, and then proceeds to tell the children at uncomfortable length about her erotic dreams involving Barack Obama.

    That got a big laugh out of me, but most of the Arclight audience didn’t see what the joke was. . .


    Another who didn't get the joke was the president. Obama said Boyhood was his favorite movie last year. Maybe he identified with Mason, who smokes pot and has a chaotic family life.
    http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/boyhood-is-barack-obamas-favorite-758832

    Replies: @Twinkie

  119. @Twinkie
    @Dave Pinsen


    I like Justified too. Though they just killed off their biggest local moron character.
     
    No spoilers, please!

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen

    Sorry. Final season started Tuesday though, so catch up.

  120. @Twinkie
    @Dave Pinsen


    The robbers in Heat weren’t invincible – 2 didn’t survive the big shoutout, and a third got wounded.
     
    In real life, they'd have all died exiting the bank.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen

    Depends when the cops got there. Remember, they had disabled the bank’s alarm systems ahead of time, so there wouldn’t have been any cops waiting for them if Waingro and hadn’t beaten the score out of Trejo so Hugh Benny could rat it out to Robbery Homicide.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Dave Pinsen


    Remember, they had disabled the bank’s alarm systems ahead of time
     
    In real life, if they had that kind of technical knowhow, they could've made a lot more money doing security consulting, rather than doing a smash-and-grab and shooting it out with half of the LAPD.

    The whole premise and plot are silly.

    Criminals in films like "Winter's Bone" are a lot more believable.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen

  121. @Twinkie
    @gzu


    Who gives a shit if Mohammad was a pedophile? So was Thomas Jefferson.
     
    I was not aware that Thomas Jefferson raped a pre-pubescent child. And he neither claimed to be the last prophet of God nor exhort his followers to go forth and pillage, murder, and rape "unbelievers" in the name of God.

    Replies: @Truth

    Thomas Jefferson started is affair with his wife’s sister Sally Hemmings when the latter was 14.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Truth


    Thomas Jefferson started is affair with his wife’s sister Sally Hemmings when the latter was 14.
     
    Is that proven?

    Also, 14 is not pre-pubescent.

    Muhammad was engaged to a child of age 6 or 7 and then consummated the marriage at age 9 or 10. He was 53 at the time. He was a pedophile, pure and simple.

    Replies: @Truth

    , @WhatEvvs
    @Truth

    So much wrong with this.

    First of all, if Thomas Jefferson had an affair w/Sally, it didn't start in Paris. That's just Barbara Chase Riboud fantasizing.

    Impossible. Couldn't have happened.

    There might have been something later on back in Monticello, but I think it's highly unlikely.

  122. How could you miss the photo of this gun crazy dude?

  123. @Ex Submarine Officer
    @Twinkie


    Also, to be fair to the “average grunts,” generally you are not allowed to do significant repairs and maintenance work on your own and are instead required to hand over the weapons to armorers, you know, actual repair professionals, for such work. There is a reason why there is the word “field” in field stripping a weapon.
     
    Worse than that, the average grunt is going to get in a lot of trouble if he is caught disassembling his weapon beyond the bounds of field stripping. Part of the early training, in USMC anyhow, with rifles is imprinting this taboo upon recruits.

    This taboo also extends to unauthorized cleaning materials/methods, but those boundaries are not necessarily so well respected. Flushing out the the trigger mechanism area of an M-16 under a shower (and of course, drying and lubricating) beats the tedious work of picking at minute bits of sand/dust in the relatively intricate mechanism.

    Your average grunt also spends a lot of time developing expertise in how to keep his weapon from needing to be cleaned, prevention, as it were, and many can be quite clever in this regard.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    This taboo also extends to unauthorized cleaning materials/methods, but those boundaries are not necessarily so well respected.

    You probably know that large amounts of unauthorized dry lubrication was brought to the war zones to run the gear seeing as the authorized CLP attracted dust like crazy.

  124. @Truth
    @Twinkie

    Thomas Jefferson started is affair with his wife's sister Sally Hemmings when the latter was 14.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @WhatEvvs

    Thomas Jefferson started is affair with his wife’s sister Sally Hemmings when the latter was 14.

    Is that proven?

    Also, 14 is not pre-pubescent.

    Muhammad was engaged to a child of age 6 or 7 and then consummated the marriage at age 9 or 10. He was 53 at the time. He was a pedophile, pure and simple.

    • Replies: @Truth
    @Twinkie


    Is that proven?
     
    You mean is there videotape evidence? No, not that I'm aware of, but it is accepted, even by the Jefferson lineage at this point.


    Also, 14 is not pre-pubescent.
     
    Great, well I say give it a shot, laugh along with a few police officers about it and report back.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  125. @Dave Pinsen
    @Twinkie

    Depends when the cops got there. Remember, they had disabled the bank's alarm systems ahead of time, so there wouldn't have been any cops waiting for them if Waingro and hadn't beaten the score out of Trejo so Hugh Benny could rat it out to Robbery Homicide.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    Remember, they had disabled the bank’s alarm systems ahead of time

    In real life, if they had that kind of technical knowhow, they could’ve made a lot more money doing security consulting, rather than doing a smash-and-grab and shooting it out with half of the LAPD.

    The whole premise and plot are silly.

    Criminals in films like “Winter’s Bone” are a lot more believable.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    @Twinkie

    Again, their objective wasn't to shoot it out with the LAPD, but yes: in general, if you are very sharp, you can almost always make more money legally than illegally.

    Another unrealistic aspect is that you can flaunt a high income (e.g., McCauley's house) with no legitimate source to back it up, without the IRS investigating you (the Italian Job was even worse in this regard).

    But when you set that stuff aside, Heat's a great movie. I've seen it 20+ times.

  126. @Steve Sailer
    @DPG

    The dad in "Boyhood" (Ethan Hawke) is broke because he's trying to be an Austin singer-songwriter. But then he gives up his dreams of stardom and becomes an actuary, which is just about the highest minimum IQ career.

    I used to know a lot of Texans, and the characters in the movie seemed pretty representative of the kind of high IQ Texans I knew.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Harry Baldwin

    The dad in “Boyhood” (Ethan Hawke) is broke because he’s trying to be an Austin singer-songwriter. But then he gives up his dreams of stardom and becomes an actuary, which is just about the highest minimum IQ career.

    Yeah and according to the movie the only folks in Texas who vote Republican are angry racists with Confederate flags who chase off our noble election workers.

    Austin is indeed Berkeley-in-Texas and a People’s Republic, but even so the depiction was too much for my taste. Just. So. Predictable.

    I must admit though Ethan Hawke’s character finding happiness with the daughter of a sweet old Texas couple who gives the Bible (with Jesus’ words redlined!) and a family heirloom of a side-by-side shotgun as a graduation gift to *his* son was very winsome.

    One more thing about that movie. What’s with the real dark sister of the boy? Ethan Hawke and Patricia Arquette have a baby and give birth to someone who is ten shades darker? I bet my wife that she must be the director’s daughter, and I won.

    She ruined the film by disturbing any semblance of believability. Rather as Sofia Coppola once did.

    • Replies: @Truth
    @Twinkie


    Austin is indeed Berkeley-in-Texas and a People’s Republic, but even so the depiction was too much for my taste. Just. So. Predictable.
     
    This is one of these oft-repeated phony "right-wing" website memes that is just silly. Anyone who has been to both Austin and Berkley would realize the difference in ideology in 10 minutes. Too many Starbucks does not equal radical.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  127. @Twinkie
    @Dave Pinsen


    Remember, they had disabled the bank’s alarm systems ahead of time
     
    In real life, if they had that kind of technical knowhow, they could've made a lot more money doing security consulting, rather than doing a smash-and-grab and shooting it out with half of the LAPD.

    The whole premise and plot are silly.

    Criminals in films like "Winter's Bone" are a lot more believable.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen

    Again, their objective wasn’t to shoot it out with the LAPD, but yes: in general, if you are very sharp, you can almost always make more money legally than illegally.

    Another unrealistic aspect is that you can flaunt a high income (e.g., McCauley’s house) with no legitimate source to back it up, without the IRS investigating you (the Italian Job was even worse in this regard).

    But when you set that stuff aside, Heat’s a great movie. I’ve seen it 20+ times.

  128. @Twinkie
    @Truth


    Thomas Jefferson started is affair with his wife’s sister Sally Hemmings when the latter was 14.
     
    Is that proven?

    Also, 14 is not pre-pubescent.

    Muhammad was engaged to a child of age 6 or 7 and then consummated the marriage at age 9 or 10. He was 53 at the time. He was a pedophile, pure and simple.

    Replies: @Truth

    Is that proven?

    You mean is there videotape evidence? No, not that I’m aware of, but it is accepted, even by the Jefferson lineage at this point.

    Also, 14 is not pre-pubescent.

    Great, well I say give it a shot, laugh along with a few police officers about it and report back.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Truth


    Great, well I say give it a shot, laugh along with a few police officers about it and report back.
     
    Are you retarded or something? In Jefferson's time it was not uncommon or illegal to have sex with a 14 year old girl. Back in those days, to put very crudely, "if she bled, she was ready to breed."

    But a pre-pubescent girl? Come on now. That goes against Nature, let alone laws of Man.

    Then again anyone who tries to draw a moral equivalency between Muhammad and Jefferson is either stupidly ignorant or intellectually dishonest.

    Replies: @Truth

  129. @Twinkie
    @Steve Sailer


    The dad in “Boyhood” (Ethan Hawke) is broke because he’s trying to be an Austin singer-songwriter. But then he gives up his dreams of stardom and becomes an actuary, which is just about the highest minimum IQ career.
     
    Yeah and according to the movie the only folks in Texas who vote Republican are angry racists with Confederate flags who chase off our noble election workers.

    Austin is indeed Berkeley-in-Texas and a People's Republic, but even so the depiction was too much for my taste. Just. So. Predictable.

    I must admit though Ethan Hawke's character finding happiness with the daughter of a sweet old Texas couple who gives the Bible (with Jesus' words redlined!) and a family heirloom of a side-by-side shotgun as a graduation gift to *his* son was very winsome.

    One more thing about that movie. What's with the real dark sister of the boy? Ethan Hawke and Patricia Arquette have a baby and give birth to someone who is ten shades darker? I bet my wife that she must be the director's daughter, and I won.

    She ruined the film by disturbing any semblance of believability. Rather as Sofia Coppola once did.

    Replies: @Truth

    Austin is indeed Berkeley-in-Texas and a People’s Republic, but even so the depiction was too much for my taste. Just. So. Predictable.

    This is one of these oft-repeated phony “right-wing” website memes that is just silly. Anyone who has been to both Austin and Berkley would realize the difference in ideology in 10 minutes. Too many Starbucks does not equal radical.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Truth


    This is one of these oft-repeated phony “right-wing” website memes that is just silly. Anyone who has been to both Austin and Berkley would realize the difference in ideology in 10 minutes.
     
    If you are going to present yourself as an expert on Austin and "Berkley," it helps to know how to spell the name properly.
  130. @Truth
    @Twinkie


    Is that proven?
     
    You mean is there videotape evidence? No, not that I'm aware of, but it is accepted, even by the Jefferson lineage at this point.


    Also, 14 is not pre-pubescent.
     
    Great, well I say give it a shot, laugh along with a few police officers about it and report back.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    Great, well I say give it a shot, laugh along with a few police officers about it and report back.

    Are you retarded or something? In Jefferson’s time it was not uncommon or illegal to have sex with a 14 year old girl. Back in those days, to put very crudely, “if she bled, she was ready to breed.”

    But a pre-pubescent girl? Come on now. That goes against Nature, let alone laws of Man.

    Then again anyone who tries to draw a moral equivalency between Muhammad and Jefferson is either stupidly ignorant or intellectually dishonest.

    • Replies: @Truth
    @Twinkie

    In Muhammad's time it was not uncommon or illegal to have sex with a 9 year old. From what I understand of the Qaran, she was already engaged to someone else. I find it disgusting, but the (quite simple) point is that one cannot judge behavior out of context. If so everyone fails. Thomas Jefferson had sex with his wife's 14 year old sister. That is, quite simply and honestly, disgusting behavior by today's standards, oh and by the way, he bought her from his cousin.

    Replies: @donut, @Twinkie

  131. @Truth
    @Twinkie


    Austin is indeed Berkeley-in-Texas and a People’s Republic, but even so the depiction was too much for my taste. Just. So. Predictable.
     
    This is one of these oft-repeated phony "right-wing" website memes that is just silly. Anyone who has been to both Austin and Berkley would realize the difference in ideology in 10 minutes. Too many Starbucks does not equal radical.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    This is one of these oft-repeated phony “right-wing” website memes that is just silly. Anyone who has been to both Austin and Berkley would realize the difference in ideology in 10 minutes.

    If you are going to present yourself as an expert on Austin and “Berkley,” it helps to know how to spell the name properly.

  132. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Hey, that’s twice in a thread I’ve agreed with Twinkie. When I was reading along, I was thinking no, the really seminal gunfight was the 1986 fight in Florida. They actually made a TV movie of it that got a lot of criticism–David Soul and Michael Gross played the bad guys and were, I thought, quite impressive. And while the movie was criticized for accuracy, I compared the movie to the FBI re-enactment and didn’t see many differences. But then, I know nothing of guns or law enforcement.

    While at the time everyone thought the FBI were incompetent, it turns out the real issue was bullet penetration. The bad guys were fatally wounded early on, but the bullets didn’t kill them immediately.

    It’s amazing that afterwards the agents could recount the sequence of events and where other agents were standing and various shots. You’d think the adrenaline and tunnel vision and the terrifying chaos would make it impossible to accuracy recall specifics. Today there is an over-kill approach to felony arrests. Today if you had this felony stop on a street you would’ve had guys looking like combat soldiers sandwiching these guys between MRAPs. Heck, they even have these guys doing these special forces-wannabe assaults on young people who stopped paying their student loans or Amish farmers who sell unpasteurized milk.

    • Replies: @Ex Submarine Officer
    @Anonymous


    It’s amazing that afterwards the agents could recount the sequence of events and where other agents were standing and various shots. You’d think the adrenaline and tunnel vision and the terrifying chaos would make it impossible to accuracy recall specifics.
     
    Chaotic, life threatening situations often induce a time dilation where events seem to be happening very slowly but one is still struggling to keep up with them. You can go through a whole series of very lucid thoughts/observations, often some of them are complete non-sequiturs, like, dang, I'm getting blood on my new shirt, in a fraction of a second.

    I'd guess it is an evolutionary adaptation, one's thought processes/perceptions wildly amplified, maybe giving one an additional chance/tools for survival.

    Personally, I've experienced this mental state fully twice in my life, a few other times kind of hovering on the edge of it. Though the two incidents were many years ago, I can still recall some things photographically and exactly what thoughts in what order were going through my head. Just an extreme lucidity, presence of mind, and time dilation that one maybe has to be experience to fully apprehend.

    Some might object, saying, what about panic, blind fear responses, etc? I'd respond that those are likely preceding mind states, where one's mind still has hope of evasion/escape and these mental states drive flight responses. Once there is no hope of that, I think one's mind shifts gears and says, ok, I guess this must be dealt with and gives it everything it has to getting you through (as opposed to away from) a threatening situation.

    Maybe this mental state is what others allude to when saying things like living on the edge gives life new meaning, etc. Probably experiences vary, but I didn't find the mental state pleasant, or unpleasant for that matter. I was just left with wonderment at how well one's mind can work, with a crystal-clear, almost leisurely, thought process in a situation that, as you said, one would expect to be essentially addled by confusion, chaos, and fear.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  133. @Twinkie
    @Truth


    Great, well I say give it a shot, laugh along with a few police officers about it and report back.
     
    Are you retarded or something? In Jefferson's time it was not uncommon or illegal to have sex with a 14 year old girl. Back in those days, to put very crudely, "if she bled, she was ready to breed."

    But a pre-pubescent girl? Come on now. That goes against Nature, let alone laws of Man.

    Then again anyone who tries to draw a moral equivalency between Muhammad and Jefferson is either stupidly ignorant or intellectually dishonest.

    Replies: @Truth

    In Muhammad’s time it was not uncommon or illegal to have sex with a 9 year old. From what I understand of the Qaran, she was already engaged to someone else. I find it disgusting, but the (quite simple) point is that one cannot judge behavior out of context. If so everyone fails. Thomas Jefferson had sex with his wife’s 14 year old sister. That is, quite simply and honestly, disgusting behavior by today’s standards, oh and by the way, he bought her from his cousin.

    • Replies: @donut
    @Truth

    " Thomas Jefferson had sex with his wife’s 14 year old sister. "

    EEK!!

    , @Twinkie
    @Truth


    In Muhammad’s time it was not uncommon or illegal to have sex with a 9 year old. From what I understand of the Qaran, she was already engaged to someone else. I find it disgusting, but the (quite simple) point is that one cannot judge behavior out of context. If so everyone fails. Thomas Jefferson had sex with his wife’s 14 year old sister. That is, quite simply and honestly, disgusting behavior by today’s standards, oh and by the way, he bought her from his cousin.
     
    Whiskey Tango Foxtrot???!!!

    In *all* pre-modern societies, including Western ones, girls who passed menarche and exhibited other attributes of womanhood were considered marriage material and potential sexual partners. That is of course morally reprehensible to us moderns (and rightly so), but it is at least consistent with the biological imperative.

    Modern or not, sexual relationship with a *pre-*pubescent girl is against the law of Nature. It is simply a gross cruelty of a mentally disordered soul. Even animals don't do it. And it says so much about Muhammad that he did so in his 50's (!) and when he had abundant access to young *women* capable of childbearing.

    Again, only the intellectually retarded or diehard Islamic apologist would equate Muhammad's "marriage" to Aisha with what Jefferson allegedly did.
  134. @Truth
    @Twinkie

    Thomas Jefferson started is affair with his wife's sister Sally Hemmings when the latter was 14.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @WhatEvvs

    So much wrong with this.

    First of all, if Thomas Jefferson had an affair w/Sally, it didn’t start in Paris. That’s just Barbara Chase Riboud fantasizing.

    Impossible. Couldn’t have happened.

    There might have been something later on back in Monticello, but I think it’s highly unlikely.

  135. They made kind of a big deal about cleaning your weapons in infantry training (and in ROTC too), partly because the M-16A2 would stop firing pretty soon if you didn’t, and maybe partly as a form of scut work. One time, after a bivouac, I came up with a little shortcut. I doused the inside and all the working parts with that oil or whatever we used to clean the parts before the march back. Then, when we got back, I hosed it out in a sink. That got rid of most of the carbon deposits.

    I thought at the time rifles out to have circulating oil and a filter like a car to self-clean carbon deposits. I guess the other approach is to just build something robust that fires when it’s dirty, like an AK.

    I’m going more by word of mouth than by experience, but it seems that’s mostly about environment, at least these days (most of the kinks having been ironed out of the system). Lots of owners put lots of rounds through their ARs between cleaning. As in thousands. At least, that’s their claim.

    A lot of gun nuts clean their guns obsessively. A lot are slackers who just snake them out, at best.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    @Svigor

    It's possible ARs have gotten more reliable (or the ammo has gotten better) since. They certainly are popular. But we also fired a lot of blanks with the rifles as part of the laser tag system (I forget what it was called; the same one they showed in Heartbreak Ridge), and that might have made the maintenance problem worse.

    Replies: @Ex Submarine Officer

    , @Twinkie
    @Svigor


    I’m going more by word of mouth than by experience, but it seems that’s mostly about environment, at least these days (most of the kinks having been ironed out of the system). Lots of owners put lots of rounds through their ARs between cleaning. As in thousands. At least, that’s their claim.
     
    Much of the initial opprobrium heaped on the AR-15/M16 system during the Vietnam War was in large measure due to faulty ammunition and improper cleaning instructions.

    Today's AR-15's are indeed much more reliable. But...

    The direct impingement system that it uses does run dirty, especially with full-auto fire and suppressor use. It's just not a very clean system.

    In my younger days, I had chances to hump variously an M16, an FN-FAL, a Daewoo K2, and an AK-type rifle in rugged terrains. Of the three, I found FN-FAL to be the best "battle" rifle, but the most durable and "all-around best" of the bunch was the K2.

    For my personal use (and some would laugh at this), my favorite carbine to carry in back country is a Mini-14. It's extremely light and handy, and has a very unthreatening "profile." (It is, infamously, the rifle that one of the bad guys used in the 1986 Miami shootout; it was also supplied to RUC in Northern Ireland at one time).

    Replies: @Ex Submarine Officer

  136. “Twinkie says:

    “Remember, they had disabled the bank’s alarm systems ahead of time”

    In real life, if they had that kind of technical knowhow, they could’ve made a lot more money doing security consulting, rather than doing a smash-and-grab and shooting it out with half of the LAPD.

    The whole premise and plot are silly.”

    Agree. “Heat” was a highly entertaining movie, but the notion of a bunch of ex-cons demonstrating the tactical know-how of a seal-team was just ridiculous. I think that there might have been more smart criminals in the past, when it was easier to get away with a crime. Now, the odds are so heavily in favor of john-law, that any reasonably smart guy knows that getting away with a big score is a long-shot at best.

    I think the current record for armed-robbery in this country is still the Brinks Truck robbery carried out by Bob Matthews and his neo-nazi gang called The Order back in 1984. They got away with 3.6 million dollars, however Matthews inadvertently left behind a reciept from a gun-store with his name on it at the scene of the crime. Criminal masterminds they were not.

  137. @Truth
    @Twinkie

    In Muhammad's time it was not uncommon or illegal to have sex with a 9 year old. From what I understand of the Qaran, she was already engaged to someone else. I find it disgusting, but the (quite simple) point is that one cannot judge behavior out of context. If so everyone fails. Thomas Jefferson had sex with his wife's 14 year old sister. That is, quite simply and honestly, disgusting behavior by today's standards, oh and by the way, he bought her from his cousin.

    Replies: @donut, @Twinkie

    ” Thomas Jefferson had sex with his wife’s 14 year old sister. ”

    EEK!!

  138. ” Thomas Jefferson had sex with his wife’s 14 year old sister. ”

    Not sister, half sister. And it’s not pedophilia with a sexually mature girl of that age, it’s what we would call statuatory rape under today’s laws. Those laws were not yet in existence.

    • Replies: @donut
    @Harry Baldwin

    Oh,thank god !!

    , @Truth
    @Harry Baldwin

    In our society, Hank, half-sister = sister; half--black = black.

    I didn't make the rules.

    And Bemused; how is it that you are privy to the timeline of the Jefferson-Hemmings romance?

  139. @Harry Baldwin
    ” Thomas Jefferson had sex with his wife’s 14 year old sister. ”

    Not sister, half sister. And it's not pedophilia with a sexually mature girl of that age, it's what we would call statuatory rape under today's laws. Those laws were not yet in existence.

    Replies: @donut, @Truth

    Oh,thank god !!

  140. @education realist
    Hey, that's twice in a thread I've agreed with Twinkie. When I was reading along, I was thinking no, the really seminal gunfight was the 1986 fight in Florida. They actually made a TV movie of it that got a lot of criticism--David Soul and Michael Gross played the bad guys and were, I thought, quite impressive. And while the movie was criticized for accuracy, I compared the movie to the FBI re-enactment and didn't see many differences. But then, I know nothing of guns or law enforcement.

    While at the time everyone thought the FBI were incompetent, it turns out the real issue was bullet penetration. The bad guys were fatally wounded early on, but the bullets didn't kill them immediately.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Boomstick

    The two bad guys in the FBI shootout were well trained–the were ex-military, and one had been a Ranger. Almost all of the shooting by the bad guys was done by one of them.

    Mann is famous for giving his characters backstories that he tells the actors, but doesn’t reveal in exposition to the audience. In Heat, Macauley had a USMC tattoo, so the military tactics are sort of plausible.

    The premise of Heat is based off a real-ish story of a criminal and cop in Chicago named Macauley and Adamson, back in the 60’s.

    http://www.examiner.com/article/the-true-story-behind-heat

    The real Macauley was not quite a criminal mastermind, but he had some ambition.

  141. @Karl
    @Anonymous

    >> I always thought that Jews had a quasi religious dislike of killing animals for sport.


    There's a hunting season on the Golan Heights, every year. It all gets eaten. Especially the wild boar. Israel has a (small) corps of Game Wardens.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    There’s a hunting season on the Golan Heights, every year. It all gets eaten. Especially the wild boar.

    I give up. By whom?

    Are there Christians nearby? Can the Druze partake?

    An Indonesian student once told me his father loved to hunt wild boar for sport. But he had to sell whatever he caught.

  142. @gzu
    @Jefferson

    Can somebody ban this despicable troll?

    Who gives a shit if Mohammad was a pedophile? So was Thomas Jefferson.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Reg Cæsar

    Who gives a shit if Mohammad was a pedophile? So was Thomas Jefferson.

    Did Jefferson also order the execution of poetesses who mocked him in verse?

  143. @Svigor

    They made kind of a big deal about cleaning your weapons in infantry training (and in ROTC too), partly because the M-16A2 would stop firing pretty soon if you didn’t, and maybe partly as a form of scut work. One time, after a bivouac, I came up with a little shortcut. I doused the inside and all the working parts with that oil or whatever we used to clean the parts before the march back. Then, when we got back, I hosed it out in a sink. That got rid of most of the carbon deposits.

    I thought at the time rifles out to have circulating oil and a filter like a car to self-clean carbon deposits. I guess the other approach is to just build something robust that fires when it’s dirty, like an AK.
     
    I'm going more by word of mouth than by experience, but it seems that's mostly about environment, at least these days (most of the kinks having been ironed out of the system). Lots of owners put lots of rounds through their ARs between cleaning. As in thousands. At least, that's their claim.

    A lot of gun nuts clean their guns obsessively. A lot are slackers who just snake them out, at best.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen, @Twinkie

    It’s possible ARs have gotten more reliable (or the ammo has gotten better) since. They certainly are popular. But we also fired a lot of blanks with the rifles as part of the laser tag system (I forget what it was called; the same one they showed in Heartbreak Ridge), and that might have made the maintenance problem worse.

    • Replies: @Ex Submarine Officer
    @Dave Pinsen


    But we also fired a lot of blanks with the rifles as part of the laser tag system (I forget what it was called; the same one they showed in Heartbreak Ridge), and that might have made the maintenance problem worse.
     
    There was a firmly held belief that, round for round, blanks crudded up ones weapon substantially worse than live ammunition. Who knows the truth of the matter, apart from the obvious clearing of the bore from the projectile in a live round. But it was a near universal belief among Marines back in the day and you'd really have to cajole a lot of them to fire any of the blanks they'd been issued during exercises.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen

  144. @Truth
    @Twinkie

    In Muhammad's time it was not uncommon or illegal to have sex with a 9 year old. From what I understand of the Qaran, she was already engaged to someone else. I find it disgusting, but the (quite simple) point is that one cannot judge behavior out of context. If so everyone fails. Thomas Jefferson had sex with his wife's 14 year old sister. That is, quite simply and honestly, disgusting behavior by today's standards, oh and by the way, he bought her from his cousin.

    Replies: @donut, @Twinkie

    In Muhammad’s time it was not uncommon or illegal to have sex with a 9 year old. From what I understand of the Qaran, she was already engaged to someone else. I find it disgusting, but the (quite simple) point is that one cannot judge behavior out of context. If so everyone fails. Thomas Jefferson had sex with his wife’s 14 year old sister. That is, quite simply and honestly, disgusting behavior by today’s standards, oh and by the way, he bought her from his cousin.

    Whiskey Tango Foxtrot???!!!

    In *all* pre-modern societies, including Western ones, girls who passed menarche and exhibited other attributes of womanhood were considered marriage material and potential sexual partners. That is of course morally reprehensible to us moderns (and rightly so), but it is at least consistent with the biological imperative.

    Modern or not, sexual relationship with a *pre-*pubescent girl is against the law of Nature. It is simply a gross cruelty of a mentally disordered soul. Even animals don’t do it. And it says so much about Muhammad that he did so in his 50’s (!) and when he had abundant access to young *women* capable of childbearing.

    Again, only the intellectually retarded or diehard Islamic apologist would equate Muhammad’s “marriage” to Aisha with what Jefferson allegedly did.

  145. @Svigor

    They made kind of a big deal about cleaning your weapons in infantry training (and in ROTC too), partly because the M-16A2 would stop firing pretty soon if you didn’t, and maybe partly as a form of scut work. One time, after a bivouac, I came up with a little shortcut. I doused the inside and all the working parts with that oil or whatever we used to clean the parts before the march back. Then, when we got back, I hosed it out in a sink. That got rid of most of the carbon deposits.

    I thought at the time rifles out to have circulating oil and a filter like a car to self-clean carbon deposits. I guess the other approach is to just build something robust that fires when it’s dirty, like an AK.
     
    I'm going more by word of mouth than by experience, but it seems that's mostly about environment, at least these days (most of the kinks having been ironed out of the system). Lots of owners put lots of rounds through their ARs between cleaning. As in thousands. At least, that's their claim.

    A lot of gun nuts clean their guns obsessively. A lot are slackers who just snake them out, at best.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen, @Twinkie

    I’m going more by word of mouth than by experience, but it seems that’s mostly about environment, at least these days (most of the kinks having been ironed out of the system). Lots of owners put lots of rounds through their ARs between cleaning. As in thousands. At least, that’s their claim.

    Much of the initial opprobrium heaped on the AR-15/M16 system during the Vietnam War was in large measure due to faulty ammunition and improper cleaning instructions.

    Today’s AR-15’s are indeed much more reliable. But…

    The direct impingement system that it uses does run dirty, especially with full-auto fire and suppressor use. It’s just not a very clean system.

    In my younger days, I had chances to hump variously an M16, an FN-FAL, a Daewoo K2, and an AK-type rifle in rugged terrains. Of the three, I found FN-FAL to be the best “battle” rifle, but the most durable and “all-around best” of the bunch was the K2.

    For my personal use (and some would laugh at this), my favorite carbine to carry in back country is a Mini-14. It’s extremely light and handy, and has a very unthreatening “profile.” (It is, infamously, the rifle that one of the bad guys used in the 1986 Miami shootout; it was also supplied to RUC in Northern Ireland at one time).

    • Replies: @Ex Submarine Officer
    @Twinkie


    Much of the initial opprobrium heaped on the AR-15/M16 system during the Vietnam War was in large measure due to faulty ammunition and improper cleaning instructions.
     
    Another problem was with earlier magazines. There is an instinctive tendency for people to give the magazine a little whack after inserting it to assure it is inserted firmly, although this really isn't necessary in most circumstances.

    Over time, according to doctrine, this could slightly deform the curved upper lips of the magazine in a manner that would sporadically allow a double feed (the rounds are staggered in an M-16 magazine). These are pretty easy to clear, but certainly not anything one would want happening in a clutch situation.

    The understanding was that this was addressed in later versions of the magazines, although there was still the admonishment not to whack the magazine, that this was unnecessary. But people would still do it, again, it seems to be sort of a reflex.

    I generally had no problems myself with M-16A1, which was the last full auto version, although I did experience a few double feeds. At that point in time, the procedure was to report/exchange any magazine with which one experienced a double feed which was presumably then discarded. Part of this was a requisite vigorous denial of magazine whacking on one's part.

    Nobody seemed to have a lot of disdain for the M-16 then, although there was an awareness of its early reputation in Vietnam. Most seemed to accept the official line that various problems had been remedied, the most obvious evidence being the addition of the forward assist mechanism which wasn't on the original M-16. Personal experience seemed to bear this out.

    The only other problem that I can recall as recurring was occasional "machine gunning" - in semi auto mode, more than one shot being fired. Didn't happen a lot, but often enough to be recognized as an occasional problem. My understanding was this was due to wear, as those weapons would be reported back to armorers rather than being ascribed to cleanliness or some other issue.

    However, the M-60s of the era, constant problems with sheared casings, seemed like every 100 rounds or so you'd get one. Those could be relatively troublesome/time consuming to clear and get firing again. That left me a much more negative perception of the M-60 (of that era) than the M-16A1.

    This is all anecdotal, BTW, others' experiences/perceptions may vary.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  146. Speakin’ of the changing gun culture in the U.S.:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/guntry-clubs-target-a-new-breed-of-shooter-younger-more-affluent-and-female/2015/01/13/47c967e0-9800-11e4-aabd-d0b93ff613d5_story.html

    Watch out, boys and girls, SWPL are descending upon your neighborhood “guntry” club. One of the comments on the article is funny:

    The NRA is finally waking up to the fact by having social-media savvy commentators and hosts on their Youtube channel like Noir, Chang, and so on. I never thought I’d see a black man and a gay Asian speaking on behalf of the NRA, but there you go.

    Google “gun culture 2.0.”

    As I mentioned before, the long-term polling trend on gun rights is one bright spot in otherwise depressing changes of view among the general public (“gay marriage,” et al.).

    • Replies: @Ex Submarine Officer
    @Twinkie


    Watch out, boys and girls, SWPL are descending upon your neighborhood “guntry” club.
     
    I've long observed that many SWPL people ritualistically repeat PC arguments for gun control, guns are bad, etc, but really don't feel it in their bones. Most of them will jump at an opportunity to go and learn something about firing weapons, IME.
  147. @Harry Baldwin
    ” Thomas Jefferson had sex with his wife’s 14 year old sister. ”

    Not sister, half sister. And it's not pedophilia with a sexually mature girl of that age, it's what we would call statuatory rape under today's laws. Those laws were not yet in existence.

    Replies: @donut, @Truth

    In our society, Hank, half-sister = sister; half–black = black.

    I didn’t make the rules.

    And Bemused; how is it that you are privy to the timeline of the Jefferson-Hemmings romance?

  148. Again, for the third time, I don’t think any more of buying and selling little girls, than I do of having sex with them, but for the third time, YOUR IDOLS ALL DID IT. It was considered common WHEN THEY were alive, so they partook.

    Does that make them bad people?

  149. @Steve Sailer
    @DPG

    The dad in "Boyhood" (Ethan Hawke) is broke because he's trying to be an Austin singer-songwriter. But then he gives up his dreams of stardom and becomes an actuary, which is just about the highest minimum IQ career.

    I used to know a lot of Texans, and the characters in the movie seemed pretty representative of the kind of high IQ Texans I knew.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Harry Baldwin

    From your review of Boyhood:

    The funniest scene in Boyhood comes in 2008 when the Bush-hating father is having his two kids hand out Obama lawn signs to neighbors. The angry white man with the Confederate flag tells them to get off his private property. At the next house, the nice white lady tells the adolescents how wonderful it is that today’s youth are getting involved in the democratic process, and then proceeds to tell the children at uncomfortable length about her erotic dreams involving Barack Obama.

    That got a big laugh out of me, but most of the Arclight audience didn’t see what the joke was. . .

    Another who didn’t get the joke was the president. Obama said Boyhood was his favorite movie last year. Maybe he identified with Mason, who smokes pot and has a chaotic family life.
    http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/boyhood-is-barack-obamas-favorite-758832

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Harry Baldwin


    At the next house, the nice white lady tells the adolescents how wonderful it is that today’s youth are getting involved in the democratic process, and then proceeds to tell the children at uncomfortable length about her erotic dreams involving Barack Obama.
     
    I must admit that was rather funny and quite subversive.

    Another who didn’t get the joke was the president. Obama said Boyhood was his favorite movie last year. Maybe he identified with Mason, who smokes pot and has a chaotic family life.
     
    Or maybe he thinks that was complimentary.

    His wife once said something along the lines of us, "occasionally I have to remind him that he, too, is a mere mortal." I don't think it takes a psychologist to see that President Obama is both high egotistical and insecure, a typical trait among pols (and actors) but something which seems to exist in greater amount in his personality even compared to other pols.
  150. @Twinkie
    @Svigor


    I’m going more by word of mouth than by experience, but it seems that’s mostly about environment, at least these days (most of the kinks having been ironed out of the system). Lots of owners put lots of rounds through their ARs between cleaning. As in thousands. At least, that’s their claim.
     
    Much of the initial opprobrium heaped on the AR-15/M16 system during the Vietnam War was in large measure due to faulty ammunition and improper cleaning instructions.

    Today's AR-15's are indeed much more reliable. But...

    The direct impingement system that it uses does run dirty, especially with full-auto fire and suppressor use. It's just not a very clean system.

    In my younger days, I had chances to hump variously an M16, an FN-FAL, a Daewoo K2, and an AK-type rifle in rugged terrains. Of the three, I found FN-FAL to be the best "battle" rifle, but the most durable and "all-around best" of the bunch was the K2.

    For my personal use (and some would laugh at this), my favorite carbine to carry in back country is a Mini-14. It's extremely light and handy, and has a very unthreatening "profile." (It is, infamously, the rifle that one of the bad guys used in the 1986 Miami shootout; it was also supplied to RUC in Northern Ireland at one time).

    Replies: @Ex Submarine Officer

    Much of the initial opprobrium heaped on the AR-15/M16 system during the Vietnam War was in large measure due to faulty ammunition and improper cleaning instructions.

    Another problem was with earlier magazines. There is an instinctive tendency for people to give the magazine a little whack after inserting it to assure it is inserted firmly, although this really isn’t necessary in most circumstances.

    Over time, according to doctrine, this could slightly deform the curved upper lips of the magazine in a manner that would sporadically allow a double feed (the rounds are staggered in an M-16 magazine). These are pretty easy to clear, but certainly not anything one would want happening in a clutch situation.

    The understanding was that this was addressed in later versions of the magazines, although there was still the admonishment not to whack the magazine, that this was unnecessary. But people would still do it, again, it seems to be sort of a reflex.

    I generally had no problems myself with M-16A1, which was the last full auto version, although I did experience a few double feeds. At that point in time, the procedure was to report/exchange any magazine with which one experienced a double feed which was presumably then discarded. Part of this was a requisite vigorous denial of magazine whacking on one’s part.

    Nobody seemed to have a lot of disdain for the M-16 then, although there was an awareness of its early reputation in Vietnam. Most seemed to accept the official line that various problems had been remedied, the most obvious evidence being the addition of the forward assist mechanism which wasn’t on the original M-16. Personal experience seemed to bear this out.

    The only other problem that I can recall as recurring was occasional “machine gunning” – in semi auto mode, more than one shot being fired. Didn’t happen a lot, but often enough to be recognized as an occasional problem. My understanding was this was due to wear, as those weapons would be reported back to armorers rather than being ascribed to cleanliness or some other issue.

    However, the M-60s of the era, constant problems with sheared casings, seemed like every 100 rounds or so you’d get one. Those could be relatively troublesome/time consuming to clear and get firing again. That left me a much more negative perception of the M-60 (of that era) than the M-16A1.

    This is all anecdotal, BTW, others’ experiences/perceptions may vary.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Ex Submarine Officer


    Another problem was with earlier magazines.
     
    Many companies have made killing making AR-15 magazines, including Magpul.

    They all come with "anti-tilt" followers now.
  151. @Dave Pinsen
    @Svigor

    It's possible ARs have gotten more reliable (or the ammo has gotten better) since. They certainly are popular. But we also fired a lot of blanks with the rifles as part of the laser tag system (I forget what it was called; the same one they showed in Heartbreak Ridge), and that might have made the maintenance problem worse.

    Replies: @Ex Submarine Officer

    But we also fired a lot of blanks with the rifles as part of the laser tag system (I forget what it was called; the same one they showed in Heartbreak Ridge), and that might have made the maintenance problem worse.

    There was a firmly held belief that, round for round, blanks crudded up ones weapon substantially worse than live ammunition. Who knows the truth of the matter, apart from the obvious clearing of the bore from the projectile in a live round. But it was a near universal belief among Marines back in the day and you’d really have to cajole a lot of them to fire any of the blanks they’d been issued during exercises.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    @Ex Submarine Officer

    Worth noting about the blanks: we fired them with "blank adapters" - vice-like clamps on the muzzle of the rifle. Without them, not enough gas would flow through the gas tube to recharge the firing pin spring and load the next round. Those adapters kept all the residue in the weapon.

  152. @Twinkie
    Speakin' of the changing gun culture in the U.S.:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/guntry-clubs-target-a-new-breed-of-shooter-younger-more-affluent-and-female/2015/01/13/47c967e0-9800-11e4-aabd-d0b93ff613d5_story.html

    Watch out, boys and girls, SWPL are descending upon your neighborhood "guntry" club. One of the comments on the article is funny:


    The NRA is finally waking up to the fact by having social-media savvy commentators and hosts on their Youtube channel like Noir, Chang, and so on. I never thought I'd see a black man and a gay Asian speaking on behalf of the NRA, but there you go.
     
    Google "gun culture 2.0."

    As I mentioned before, the long-term polling trend on gun rights is one bright spot in otherwise depressing changes of view among the general public ("gay marriage," et al.).

    Replies: @Ex Submarine Officer

    Watch out, boys and girls, SWPL are descending upon your neighborhood “guntry” club.

    I’ve long observed that many SWPL people ritualistically repeat PC arguments for gun control, guns are bad, etc, but really don’t feel it in their bones. Most of them will jump at an opportunity to go and learn something about firing weapons, IME.

  153. @Anonymous
    @education realist

    Hey, that’s twice in a thread I’ve agreed with Twinkie. When I was reading along, I was thinking no, the really seminal gunfight was the 1986 fight in Florida. They actually made a TV movie of it that got a lot of criticism–David Soul and Michael Gross played the bad guys and were, I thought, quite impressive. And while the movie was criticized for accuracy, I compared the movie to the FBI re-enactment and didn’t see many differences. But then, I know nothing of guns or law enforcement.

    While at the time everyone thought the FBI were incompetent, it turns out the real issue was bullet penetration. The bad guys were fatally wounded early on, but the bullets didn’t kill them immediately.
     
    It's amazing that afterwards the agents could recount the sequence of events and where other agents were standing and various shots. You'd think the adrenaline and tunnel vision and the terrifying chaos would make it impossible to accuracy recall specifics. Today there is an over-kill approach to felony arrests. Today if you had this felony stop on a street you would've had guys looking like combat soldiers sandwiching these guys between MRAPs. Heck, they even have these guys doing these special forces-wannabe assaults on young people who stopped paying their student loans or Amish farmers who sell unpasteurized milk.

    Replies: @Ex Submarine Officer

    It’s amazing that afterwards the agents could recount the sequence of events and where other agents were standing and various shots. You’d think the adrenaline and tunnel vision and the terrifying chaos would make it impossible to accuracy recall specifics.

    Chaotic, life threatening situations often induce a time dilation where events seem to be happening very slowly but one is still struggling to keep up with them. You can go through a whole series of very lucid thoughts/observations, often some of them are complete non-sequiturs, like, dang, I’m getting blood on my new shirt, in a fraction of a second.

    I’d guess it is an evolutionary adaptation, one’s thought processes/perceptions wildly amplified, maybe giving one an additional chance/tools for survival.

    Personally, I’ve experienced this mental state fully twice in my life, a few other times kind of hovering on the edge of it. Though the two incidents were many years ago, I can still recall some things photographically and exactly what thoughts in what order were going through my head. Just an extreme lucidity, presence of mind, and time dilation that one maybe has to be experience to fully apprehend.

    Some might object, saying, what about panic, blind fear responses, etc? I’d respond that those are likely preceding mind states, where one’s mind still has hope of evasion/escape and these mental states drive flight responses. Once there is no hope of that, I think one’s mind shifts gears and says, ok, I guess this must be dealt with and gives it everything it has to getting you through (as opposed to away from) a threatening situation.

    Maybe this mental state is what others allude to when saying things like living on the edge gives life new meaning, etc. Probably experiences vary, but I didn’t find the mental state pleasant, or unpleasant for that matter. I was just left with wonderment at how well one’s mind can work, with a crystal-clear, almost leisurely, thought process in a situation that, as you said, one would expect to be essentially addled by confusion, chaos, and fear.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Ex Submarine Officer


    Chaotic, life threatening situations often induce a time dilation where events seem to be happening very slowly but one is still struggling to keep up with them. You can go through a whole series of very lucid thoughts/observations, often some of them are complete non-sequiturs, like, dang, I’m getting blood on my new shirt, in a fraction of a second.
     
    My above mentioned encounter occurred decades ago. But I still remember the gleam of the blade that struck me (at least it gleams in my memory).

    I didn’t find the mental state pleasant, or unpleasant for that matter.
     
    I still remember the incredibly sharp pain very vividly, and every time I look at the mirror, the scars are there to remind me.

    There was nothing beautiful about it in any way. In fact, without being melodramatic about it, it was a traumatic experience.
  154. @Ex Submarine Officer
    @Dave Pinsen


    But we also fired a lot of blanks with the rifles as part of the laser tag system (I forget what it was called; the same one they showed in Heartbreak Ridge), and that might have made the maintenance problem worse.
     
    There was a firmly held belief that, round for round, blanks crudded up ones weapon substantially worse than live ammunition. Who knows the truth of the matter, apart from the obvious clearing of the bore from the projectile in a live round. But it was a near universal belief among Marines back in the day and you'd really have to cajole a lot of them to fire any of the blanks they'd been issued during exercises.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen

    Worth noting about the blanks: we fired them with “blank adapters” – vice-like clamps on the muzzle of the rifle. Without them, not enough gas would flow through the gas tube to recharge the firing pin spring and load the next round. Those adapters kept all the residue in the weapon.

  155. @Hippopotamusdrome
    @BB753

    They just don´t like it when the wrong kind of people own them: country rubes, middle-class law-abiding Americans, Blacks and Hispanics.

    Why add Blacks and Hispanics? Black and Hispanic gangs and guns are cool. Especially when they hold the gun sideways.

    Category:Hood films

    Colors
    Real gang members were hired as guardians as well as actors by producer Robert H. Solo. Two of them were shot during filming.
    Boyz n the Hood
    Menace II Society
    Juice
    It stars rapper Tupac Shakur and Omar Epps.
    CB4
    Belly 2: Millionaire Boyz Club
    Blood In Blood Out
    Get Rich or Die Tryin'
    Lost in the Hood
    Rappin'
    Ice-T's small role is uncredited
    Rollin' with the Nines
    Thug Life

    Replies: @BB753

    LOL! Yeah, black thugs are cool in pictures, not in real life. I doubt Hollywood producers let any “black bodies” anywhere near their mansions.
    BTW, Omar Epps went on to play a sophisticated surgeon in the medical drama tv series House.

  156. @Anonymous

    @Anonymous

    I always thought that Jews had a quasi religious dislike of killing animals for sport.

     

    Spielberg is into skeet shooting, not hunting. From my experience, most above-average-IQ people (i.e, Jews, etc.) are not into hunting or killing animals. Jews in Congress get the highest approval ratings from HSUS, PETA, et al., for animal welfare issues. Jews trust dogs. Gentiles not so much.

    Replies: @WhatEvvs, @Chrisnonymous, @Stan Adams

    Many top Nazis, including Hitler, were ardent animal-rights advocates. Himmler wanted to ban hunting entirely.

    “That’s the one thing you have to remember about WASPs: they love animals and hate people.” – Gordon Gekko, ambiguously Jewish financier, commenting on non-ambiguously non-Jewish people

  157. @Harry Baldwin
    @Steve Sailer

    From your review of Boyhood:

    The funniest scene in Boyhood comes in 2008 when the Bush-hating father is having his two kids hand out Obama lawn signs to neighbors. The angry white man with the Confederate flag tells them to get off his private property. At the next house, the nice white lady tells the adolescents how wonderful it is that today’s youth are getting involved in the democratic process, and then proceeds to tell the children at uncomfortable length about her erotic dreams involving Barack Obama.

    That got a big laugh out of me, but most of the Arclight audience didn’t see what the joke was. . .


    Another who didn't get the joke was the president. Obama said Boyhood was his favorite movie last year. Maybe he identified with Mason, who smokes pot and has a chaotic family life.
    http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/boyhood-is-barack-obamas-favorite-758832

    Replies: @Twinkie

    At the next house, the nice white lady tells the adolescents how wonderful it is that today’s youth are getting involved in the democratic process, and then proceeds to tell the children at uncomfortable length about her erotic dreams involving Barack Obama.

    I must admit that was rather funny and quite subversive.

    Another who didn’t get the joke was the president. Obama said Boyhood was his favorite movie last year. Maybe he identified with Mason, who smokes pot and has a chaotic family life.

    Or maybe he thinks that was complimentary.

    His wife once said something along the lines of us, “occasionally I have to remind him that he, too, is a mere mortal.” I don’t think it takes a psychologist to see that President Obama is both high egotistical and insecure, a typical trait among pols (and actors) but something which seems to exist in greater amount in his personality even compared to other pols.

  158. @Ex Submarine Officer
    @Twinkie


    Much of the initial opprobrium heaped on the AR-15/M16 system during the Vietnam War was in large measure due to faulty ammunition and improper cleaning instructions.
     
    Another problem was with earlier magazines. There is an instinctive tendency for people to give the magazine a little whack after inserting it to assure it is inserted firmly, although this really isn't necessary in most circumstances.

    Over time, according to doctrine, this could slightly deform the curved upper lips of the magazine in a manner that would sporadically allow a double feed (the rounds are staggered in an M-16 magazine). These are pretty easy to clear, but certainly not anything one would want happening in a clutch situation.

    The understanding was that this was addressed in later versions of the magazines, although there was still the admonishment not to whack the magazine, that this was unnecessary. But people would still do it, again, it seems to be sort of a reflex.

    I generally had no problems myself with M-16A1, which was the last full auto version, although I did experience a few double feeds. At that point in time, the procedure was to report/exchange any magazine with which one experienced a double feed which was presumably then discarded. Part of this was a requisite vigorous denial of magazine whacking on one's part.

    Nobody seemed to have a lot of disdain for the M-16 then, although there was an awareness of its early reputation in Vietnam. Most seemed to accept the official line that various problems had been remedied, the most obvious evidence being the addition of the forward assist mechanism which wasn't on the original M-16. Personal experience seemed to bear this out.

    The only other problem that I can recall as recurring was occasional "machine gunning" - in semi auto mode, more than one shot being fired. Didn't happen a lot, but often enough to be recognized as an occasional problem. My understanding was this was due to wear, as those weapons would be reported back to armorers rather than being ascribed to cleanliness or some other issue.

    However, the M-60s of the era, constant problems with sheared casings, seemed like every 100 rounds or so you'd get one. Those could be relatively troublesome/time consuming to clear and get firing again. That left me a much more negative perception of the M-60 (of that era) than the M-16A1.

    This is all anecdotal, BTW, others' experiences/perceptions may vary.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    Another problem was with earlier magazines.

    Many companies have made killing making AR-15 magazines, including Magpul.

    They all come with “anti-tilt” followers now.

  159. @Ex Submarine Officer
    @Anonymous


    It’s amazing that afterwards the agents could recount the sequence of events and where other agents were standing and various shots. You’d think the adrenaline and tunnel vision and the terrifying chaos would make it impossible to accuracy recall specifics.
     
    Chaotic, life threatening situations often induce a time dilation where events seem to be happening very slowly but one is still struggling to keep up with them. You can go through a whole series of very lucid thoughts/observations, often some of them are complete non-sequiturs, like, dang, I'm getting blood on my new shirt, in a fraction of a second.

    I'd guess it is an evolutionary adaptation, one's thought processes/perceptions wildly amplified, maybe giving one an additional chance/tools for survival.

    Personally, I've experienced this mental state fully twice in my life, a few other times kind of hovering on the edge of it. Though the two incidents were many years ago, I can still recall some things photographically and exactly what thoughts in what order were going through my head. Just an extreme lucidity, presence of mind, and time dilation that one maybe has to be experience to fully apprehend.

    Some might object, saying, what about panic, blind fear responses, etc? I'd respond that those are likely preceding mind states, where one's mind still has hope of evasion/escape and these mental states drive flight responses. Once there is no hope of that, I think one's mind shifts gears and says, ok, I guess this must be dealt with and gives it everything it has to getting you through (as opposed to away from) a threatening situation.

    Maybe this mental state is what others allude to when saying things like living on the edge gives life new meaning, etc. Probably experiences vary, but I didn't find the mental state pleasant, or unpleasant for that matter. I was just left with wonderment at how well one's mind can work, with a crystal-clear, almost leisurely, thought process in a situation that, as you said, one would expect to be essentially addled by confusion, chaos, and fear.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    Chaotic, life threatening situations often induce a time dilation where events seem to be happening very slowly but one is still struggling to keep up with them. You can go through a whole series of very lucid thoughts/observations, often some of them are complete non-sequiturs, like, dang, I’m getting blood on my new shirt, in a fraction of a second.

    My above mentioned encounter occurred decades ago. But I still remember the gleam of the blade that struck me (at least it gleams in my memory).

    I didn’t find the mental state pleasant, or unpleasant for that matter.

    I still remember the incredibly sharp pain very vividly, and every time I look at the mirror, the scars are there to remind me.

    There was nothing beautiful about it in any way. In fact, without being melodramatic about it, it was a traumatic experience.

  160. @Chrisnonymous
    Re liberal gun-lovers:

    The folks of www.bOINGbOING.net are pretty ardent gun supporters, which is strange because they are very anti-American, anti-religion, and anti-middle-class. After years of following their blog, I haven't been able to square the circle, but it is interesting.

    In addition, Steve, you should check out the Morgan Spurlock YouTube video on a day in the life of Tim Ferriss. It features his trip to a shooting range in San Francisco, which I find incredible! Admittedly, Tim Ferriss likes publicity and going against the crowd, but I think there is an honest interest in guns there too. Also, how can the shooting range survive without other clients?

    Although I have spent my life on the East Coast of America and now am an expat, I think there are pro-gun sentiments that have been brewing in the "left-coast" culture for maybe decades. I think it could be the next frontier for the shallow people who have been hipsters. Knees too old to ride single-gear road bikes to work? No problem! You can form your identity around vintage handguns or somesuch.

    Two observations re Spielberg:

    (1) It's easy to forget that he was a Boy Scout with enough fondness for his time in the Scouts to incorporate Scouting into the Indiana Jones trilogy. In these days of the Scouts being vilified for their anti-gay views, he has probably turned his back on them, but there was clearly a time when they represented "the good old days" for him. There is, of course, a shooting merit badge, and shooting is a big thing at Scout camps (at least, back when I was in Scouts), where many boys are exposed to rifles and gun safety for the first time.

    (2) When I was in university, I had a friend who was a Conservative Jew. He told me straight up that when the American Holocaust started, he expected me to be his personal Schindler. This was not presented out of arrogance or entitlement but desperation. it is important not to underestimate the level of paranoia. I am 99.9% sure that it has crossed Spielberg's mind that he might have to shoot an anti-Semitic neo-Nazi white supremacist some day to save himself.

    Replies: @snorlax, @JV

    I’ll square the circle for you. Us liberal gun enthusiasts are in favor of the right to own guns, enjoy shooting (and even hunting), but don’t believe it’s an unalienable right not subject to regulation. Speaking for myself, I’m in favor of a national gun registry (just like we register cars), a background check and a waiting period. I also like to shoot and on occasion, blow shit up in the desert. I don’t see a contradiction there.

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