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From the NYT:

Prosecutors Scrutinize Minority Borrowers‘ Auto Loans
By MICHAEL CORKERY and JESSICA SILVER-GREENBERG MARCH 30, 2015

Minority borrowers were once starved for credit through redlining — banks’ refusal to provide mortgages in their communities.

Now the booming auto industry has turned that historic wrong on its head, government authorities say, singling out minority borrowers and extending them the costliest car loans, a development that threatens to exacerbate the economic distress in some black and Hispanic neighborhoods.

The practice, known as reverse-redlining, is presenting new challenges for government authorities trying to shield the most vulnerable Americans from predatory lending. Prosecutors from the Justice Department and top officials with the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau are grappling with how to root out the practice in a fractured industry, where some of the least regulated players, the auto dealers, wield the most power and where virtually no national data exists to quantify the problem.

“In every facet of the auto lending market, combating discrimination is a top priority for the Civil Rights Division,” Vanita Gupta, acting assistant attorney general for the division, said in an interview. Ms. Gupta joined the Justice Department in October from the American Civil Liberties Union, where she was deputy legal director and headed its Center for Justice.

That reminds me. What exactly is the ACLU up to these days? You used to hear about it all the time, but now it seems to maintain a much lower profile. It seems to now be on the side of government, as Ms. Gupta’s career path suggests.

The latest push against auto dealers comes as previous efforts aimed solely at lenders have faced challenges, including intense resistance from the industry. One prominent action taken by the federal authorities against a large lender, Ally Financial, has been fraught with complications.

More than a year ago, Ally agreed to pay $80 million to auto buyers as part of a broader settlement over accusations that it charged minority customers higher interest rates. But none of that money has been paid out, according to several people briefed on the settlement.

One reason for the delay, the people said, is that federal authorities have found it complicated to determine which Ally customers are minorities who might have suffered harm. Before sending out the checks, the regulators wanted to make sure that none were sent to white borrowers, the people said. Another wrinkle is that information about the settlement is being sent in six languages.

So, it’s illegal to trick an innumerate illegal alien into an exploitive loan, but it’s okay to trick an innumerate white American citizen into the same loan? Perhaps we should experiment instead with this crazy idea called the equal protection of the law?

… Neither auto dealers nor lenders are required to collect information about a borrower’s race or ethnicity. The mortgage market is different. After the redlining scandals in housing, Congress in 1975 passed the Home Mortgage Disclosure Act, which required lenders to detail their mortgage lending by race, ethnicity and ZIP code.

Tino pointed out the giant federal online database of mortgages by race/ethnicity to me in 2008, which demonstrated that the Housing Bubble / Bust was intimately tied to massive expansion in lending to Hispanics.

Faced with a dearth of data in auto lending, the government authorities created a method that analyzes borrowers’ surnames and addresses to determine their race.

That’s like what race/history/evolution notes does with the Forbes 400.

… Using proxies in their auto lending investigation into Ally, the federal authorities calculated that roughly 235,000 minority borrowers paid higher interest rates than white ones from April 2011 to December 2013. …

Part of the problem in the eyes of the federal authorities, the people said, is “dealer markups,” in which dealers tack additional interest onto a borrower’s loan. The markups can be used, the people said, to charge minority borrowers higher rates than white ones with similar credit profiles.

Logically, Eric Holder’s Justice Department is arguing that car dealers are charging white customers less out of the goodness of their hearts, because, after all, car dealers are famously nice and unmaterialistic.

… At some dealerships, the Justice Department is taking aim at discriminatory practices that go beyond markups.

In February, the department resolved a case against two dealerships in Charlotte, N.C., for intentionally targeting African-American borrowers with unfair and predatory practices in the financing of used-car purchases.

To lure the borrowers, the department said, the dealerships were situated in overwhelmingly African-American neighborhoods.

That reminds me that in both Chicago and Los Angeles, I’ve been discriminated against in Toyota dealerships. I’ve several times been ignored by salesmen who don’t want to deal with an intelligent-looking white guy who no doubt has looked up on the Internet what the dealer’s cost of the car is.

 
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  1. The racist implications of actuarial data on loan defaults will probably end up being dealt with the same way as sexist implications of actuarial data on medical costs: by funding a federal bureaucracy to externalize the costs onto white men.

  2. What exactly is the ACLU up to these days?

    The ACLU opposes censorship of library books, but supports making libraries unbearable to visit by representing horrible-smelling homeless people who want to hang out all day in the library.

    In my experience, librarians are really nice people. I trust them to not wantonly kick people out who are not causing any harm or disruption. But the ACLU is OK with turning them into de facto homeless shelters / bum-computer-porn-masterbation safe places.

    • Replies: @Michelle
    @Lot

    Wrong! Librarians are not nice! They are the epitome of all that is evil! They are all card carrying members of the ACLU. They are nasty, intolerant lefties for the most part and they cater to the public masturbators, men who use women's restrooms, and smelly, violent, homeless people and encourage bad behavior in children and teenagers, even though the majority of them have no children of their own. I work at a library and try to avoid interacting with "public" masturbators, smelly patrons and librarians as much as I possibly can.

    Replies: @Bill, @Art Deco, @JustAnotherGuyWitha1911

  3. People generally get the interest rates they deserve.

    The SPLC and Barack Obama are now interested in the “overproliferation” of payday loan joints in Bell Curve Cities. The point remains, if there was money to be made in loaning ghetto blacks money at lower interest rates than the payday loan joints charge, someone would be doing it.

    • Replies: @Lot
    @countenance


    People generally get the interest rates they deserve.
     
    I have to disagree with you here. When I was still in high school I would sub in for my older sister who taught remedial math at the local community college. (It was a small town in the 90's, things like that happened.) The students were working adults who wanted to better themselves going to school at night, and it was just heartbreaking to see them unable to do long division and multiplication of 3 digit numbers when they really tried hard to do so.

    These are the people the payday loan scumbags target. The ones who have a steady paycheck than can steal away so easily by having them sign forms they don't understand. Another prime target for high-interest loans are fresh military recruits, often 18-year-olds from rural areas who have never had a bank account, and are seduced by retired officers who sign up as the salesmen for payday loan places and sleazy auto lenders.

    PS: I like your blog.

    Replies: @ben tillman

  4. Rip-off loans is where banker scumbaggery and IQ denialism profitably intersect.

    Good paternalistic liberals like Senator Warren just want to ban payday loans, which often feature 7,000% interest rates.

    The banks, however, insist the solution is “financial education.” Rather than cap interest rates, let’s protect the IQ<85 set by forcing schools to try to teach them concepts like present value, compound interest, and amortization.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Lot


    The banks, however, insist the solution is “financial education.” Rather than cap interest rates, let’s protect the IQ<85 set by forcing schools to try to teach them concepts like present value, compound interest, and amortization.
     
    I am not libertarian, but I find that laws seldom prevent stupid people from doing stupid things.

    It seems to me that, when looking at out-of-wedlock birth rates and such historically, there was a time when even the "IQ<85 set" didn't engage in as reckless behaviors as they do now. The answer seems to be social-cultural constraint of negative (short-sighted) behaviors, rather than arbitrarily capping numbers (which, once established as a precedent, can always be set lower still).

    When the "IQ<85 set" had intact families and fathers at home, they seemed to have learned through oral tradition if not school home economics classes that obtaining usurious loans was not a good idea.
    , @Bill
    @Lot


    Good paternalistic liberals like Senator Warren just want to ban payday loans, which often feature 7,000% interest rates.
     
    I'd say that sentiment extends a bit beyond paternalistic liberals. But why stop at payday lending? Title Pawn, too. And most credit cards.

    The ostensible defenses of leaving these things legal are just awful. All voluntary transactions are good. Bill, you you think you know better what's good for some barely functional, IQ 80 dipshit than he does? Bill, why do you hate freedom? Capitalism is good. Etc.

    It's hard not to suspect hatred of stupid people born of Noah Smith style flashbacks to high school. It really sucked when some letterman laughed out loud, in front of pretty girls and everything, about some geeked-out thing I said one fine day in civics class.

    But, you know, his life today as "Peaked in High School Me" sucks enough. Payday lenders do not need to make it worse, and he doesn't deserve them making it worse. I should learn to sympathize with him. He has no chance of figuring out anything. Except that his fat wife left him, his daughter is on meth, driving a forklift doesn't pay the way it used to, and he doesn't know what to do about it. Maybe joining the Tea Party will help?

    This guy remembers how emasculated those those stupid meanie-heads made him feel:

    “Nobody deserves to get ripped off.”

    You talk like a woman. In a voluntary transaction between two parties, each side deserves whatever it gets, QED.

     

    , @Mike
    @Lot

    I love how not one person has challenged your your completely made up (and wildly wrong) 7,000% number.
    Most payday lenders are struggling middle class and couldn't be further from Wall Street if they tried. They lend to people who no one trusts - family and friends included - and the default rates are off the charts.
    Even the concept of APR being applied to a two week loan is somewhat stupid. If you asked a friend to spot you $300.00 no one would think it weird if the friend gave you an extra $50.00 as a "thank you". When a business does it all of a sudden we decide to stretch out the loan as if it lasts for an entire year and get shocked that the APR is higher than a credit card. In CA it costs $8.00 to borrow $50.00 from a payday lender. So what?!
    The cycle of debt thing is a joke. That $8.00 is trapping you forever?!

    The car dealer thing also falls into a made up scandal territory. Several people have written here that the evil dealers resell cars they repo. What are they supposed to do?

    I think I am the only pro business voice that ever comments here. Instead of yearning for a white utopia why don't some of you get off your butt and try to run a business. Since everyone on here is an expert in payday lending my suggestion would be to start there. Get back to me when you've burned through all the money you've managed to scrape together.

    Replies: @MarkinLA, @pseudonymic handle

  5. No they give good rates because they know Blacks and Hispanics aren’t good loan prospects, many lie out their ass, are flakey and often abuse the merchandise or just drive it down to Mexico where it disappears and the driver vanishes.

    Or they let it get stolen and stripped to the frame, The frame ends up at a auto salvage auction where it’s sold for pennies on the dollar to the same people who stole and stripped it. Since they have all the parts, they put it back together and sell it for a nice profit and it’s legal as can be. I used to see it all the time at the auctions. No one dared bid on the frames except the thieves.

    Now some dealers make serious bank dealing with deadbeats. We got this one dealer where I live who specializes into selling and scamming deadbeat Mexicans and Blacks and it’s made him rich. First off he does his own financing(which looks good but isn’t), two he installs a tracker in each vehicle so he knows where they are at all times. When a buyer has trouble making payments, he calls them in saying the car is due for a free preventative maintenance check, the driver shows up, he escorts him/her into a office, while a employee repossessed the car. When the buyer walks out the car is gone. Then the car is cleaned up and put back on the lot for sale.

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    @rod1963

    I got one of my cars at the auctions typically attended by those corner lot used car dealers. They buy a car that the new car dealers would not buy (or were actually selling at auction) due to looks or high mileage and double the price and put them on their lot. They get desperate people to put as much as they can down (now they no longer have a cushion in case something goes wrong) and a very high interest rate.

    It is risky because of the people you are dealing with but the scam of repoing the car and putting it back on the lot is true. If you are ever going to buy one of those beaters, save your money up and go to the auction yourself.

  6. But when is the Justice Department going to punish auto insurers for charging men higher rates than women?

    • Replies: @Big Bill
    @WowJustWow

    The auto insurers are working on a way around challenges based on race, gender and age. They are experimenting with trackers on vehicles that record location, speed, acceleration rates, following distance, time/date of travel and other factors that can be used to determine likelihood of loss.

    The nice thing is that all these factors are non-discriminatory, although (doubtless) highly correlated with race/gender/age.

    Replies: @Wilkey, @E. Rekshun

    , @Anonymous Nephew
    @WowJustWow

    The EU have legislated so that (officially) car/auto insurers CAN'T charge men more than women. Nor can they charge men less than women for pension annuities.

    http://ec.europa.eu/justice/newsroom/gender-equality/news/121220_en.htm

    "Gender equality is a fundamental right in the European Union and the Court of Justice made clear that this also applies to insurance pricing"

    They haven't yet cracked the minor problems of men dying earlier, or men having more auto accidents, but I'm sure they're working on it.

  7. @countenance
    People generally get the interest rates they deserve.

    The SPLC and Barack Obama are now interested in the "overproliferation" of payday loan joints in Bell Curve Cities. The point remains, if there was money to be made in loaning ghetto blacks money at lower interest rates than the payday loan joints charge, someone would be doing it.

    Replies: @Lot

    People generally get the interest rates they deserve.

    I have to disagree with you here. When I was still in high school I would sub in for my older sister who taught remedial math at the local community college. (It was a small town in the 90’s, things like that happened.) The students were working adults who wanted to better themselves going to school at night, and it was just heartbreaking to see them unable to do long division and multiplication of 3 digit numbers when they really tried hard to do so.

    These are the people the payday loan scumbags target. The ones who have a steady paycheck than can steal away so easily by having them sign forms they don’t understand. Another prime target for high-interest loans are fresh military recruits, often 18-year-olds from rural areas who have never had a bank account, and are seduced by retired officers who sign up as the salesmen for payday loan places and sleazy auto lenders.

    PS: I like your blog.

    • Replies: @ben tillman
    @Lot


    People generally get the interest rates they deserve.
     
    Nobody deserves to get ripped off.

    Replies: @ben tillman, @dumpstersquirrel

  8. I wonder how much of it is you can’t get whites to bite on these crazy loan terms.

  9. @Lot
    Rip-off loans is where banker scumbaggery and IQ denialism profitably intersect.

    Good paternalistic liberals like Senator Warren just want to ban payday loans, which often feature 7,000% interest rates.

    The banks, however, insist the solution is "financial education." Rather than cap interest rates, let's protect the IQ<85 set by forcing schools to try to teach them concepts like present value, compound interest, and amortization.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Bill, @Mike

    The banks, however, insist the solution is “financial education.” Rather than cap interest rates, let’s protect the IQ<85 set by forcing schools to try to teach them concepts like present value, compound interest, and amortization.

    I am not libertarian, but I find that laws seldom prevent stupid people from doing stupid things.

    It seems to me that, when looking at out-of-wedlock birth rates and such historically, there was a time when even the “IQ<85 set" didn't engage in as reckless behaviors as they do now. The answer seems to be social-cultural constraint of negative (short-sighted) behaviors, rather than arbitrarily capping numbers (which, once established as a precedent, can always be set lower still).

    When the "IQ<85 set" had intact families and fathers at home, they seemed to have learned through oral tradition if not school home economics classes that obtaining usurious loans was not a good idea.

  10. Back when I first started buying cars, with no down payment, no credit rating, and desperate because I was married with small children, I ended up paying a 40% markup from the list price over the course of a loan. Decades later, I end up paying 7% over markup over the course of the loan; and if I don’t get to do it my way, I leave.

    People get charged higher rates not because they are black but because they are poor credit risks and also because the customers will take whatever they can get. If you have an established credit rating with no defaults or bankruptcies you are in a far better position to call the tune.

    The other reason why these bad deals go through is because people are not only innumerate but they are embarrassed that they are innumerate and don’t bother to take a break or use a calculator to figure out exactly how much they will be paying over the course of the loan. In his reparations pitch, Ta Nehisi Coates extends this to home mortgages, as well. But, let’s face it, slavery is no excuse for being bamboozled in a financial transaction.

    Now, if someone decides that predatory lending practices should cease, OK, but don’t make an affirmative action case out of it. There are plenty of innumerate white people who are prone to making poor financial decisions, too. It is frankly insulting to everybody, and in particular black people, to act as though black people are uniquely stupid such that they have to be protected from poor financial decisions.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @SPmoore8


    Back when I first started buying cars, with no down payment, no credit rating, and desperate because I was married with small children, I ended up paying a 40% markup from the list price over the course of a loan. Decades later, I end up paying 7% over markup over the course of the loan; and if I don’t get to do it my way, I leave.
     
    My father taught me two lessons about buying cars.

    First, never to borrow money to buy a rapidly depreciating asset. He said "don't borrow money to buy a car; if you have to borrow money to buy a car, then you shouldn't have one."*

    Second, never pay more than $500 above *actual* (not published) dealer cost.

    So, until I was well-off, I bought clean, reliable used cars (Hondas mostly), usually from other owners, not dealers. And even once I became fairly affluent, I never did pay more than $500 above dealer costs. Sure, that meant I frequently had to walk off a purchase, but since I had other, perfectly functioning cars, I was in no hurry. As my mother often said, if ever in doubt, don't buy it, you'll get plenty of chances later to spend money.

    *Of course, my wife has me beat - she comes from a family that was taught not to buy even a *house* on a loan. Her maternal grandparents and parents had no home mortgages, ever. Her grandpa came back from World War II and lived in a rental until he and his wife saved up enough money to buy a modest house (he retired as a senior VP of a large media conglomerate eventually). They don't even borrow money for *appreciating* assets. The lessons of the Depression run strong in her family.

    Replies: @ASF

  11. Holder’s DOJ is the kind of organization that would litigate over ‘food deserts’, forcing supermarket companies to open new stores, and then sue them because they raised prices due to shoplifting:

    To lure the shoppers, the department said, the markets were situated in overwhelmingly African-American neighborhoods.

  12. @rod1963
    No they give good rates because they know Blacks and Hispanics aren't good loan prospects, many lie out their ass, are flakey and often abuse the merchandise or just drive it down to Mexico where it disappears and the driver vanishes.

    Or they let it get stolen and stripped to the frame, The frame ends up at a auto salvage auction where it's sold for pennies on the dollar to the same people who stole and stripped it. Since they have all the parts, they put it back together and sell it for a nice profit and it's legal as can be. I used to see it all the time at the auctions. No one dared bid on the frames except the thieves.

    Now some dealers make serious bank dealing with deadbeats. We got this one dealer where I live who specializes into selling and scamming deadbeat Mexicans and Blacks and it's made him rich. First off he does his own financing(which looks good but isn't), two he installs a tracker in each vehicle so he knows where they are at all times. When a buyer has trouble making payments, he calls them in saying the car is due for a free preventative maintenance check, the driver shows up, he escorts him/her into a office, while a employee repossessed the car. When the buyer walks out the car is gone. Then the car is cleaned up and put back on the lot for sale.

    Replies: @MarkinLA

    I got one of my cars at the auctions typically attended by those corner lot used car dealers. They buy a car that the new car dealers would not buy (or were actually selling at auction) due to looks or high mileage and double the price and put them on their lot. They get desperate people to put as much as they can down (now they no longer have a cushion in case something goes wrong) and a very high interest rate.

    It is risky because of the people you are dealing with but the scam of repoing the car and putting it back on the lot is true. If you are ever going to buy one of those beaters, save your money up and go to the auction yourself.

  13. @Lot
    @countenance


    People generally get the interest rates they deserve.
     
    I have to disagree with you here. When I was still in high school I would sub in for my older sister who taught remedial math at the local community college. (It was a small town in the 90's, things like that happened.) The students were working adults who wanted to better themselves going to school at night, and it was just heartbreaking to see them unable to do long division and multiplication of 3 digit numbers when they really tried hard to do so.

    These are the people the payday loan scumbags target. The ones who have a steady paycheck than can steal away so easily by having them sign forms they don't understand. Another prime target for high-interest loans are fresh military recruits, often 18-year-olds from rural areas who have never had a bank account, and are seduced by retired officers who sign up as the salesmen for payday loan places and sleazy auto lenders.

    PS: I like your blog.

    Replies: @ben tillman

    People generally get the interest rates they deserve.

    Nobody deserves to get ripped off.

    • Replies: @ben tillman
    @ben tillman


    Nobody deserves to get ripped off.
     
    But most people don't get ripped off, so maybe you're right.
    , @dumpstersquirrel
    @ben tillman

    "Nobody deserves to get ripped off."

    You talk like a woman. In a voluntary transaction between two parties, each side deserves whatever it gets, QED. There are times I've paid more than I had to for a service, but it was my own impatience and laziness that caused this -- I could have done more research, but chose not to; ergo, I got "ripped off." And I deserved it, 7,000%.

    Replies: @IBC

  14. That reminds me that in both Chicago and Los Angeles, I’ve been discriminated against in Toyota dealerships. I’ve several times been ignored by salesmen who don’t want to deal with an intelligent-looking white guy who no doubt has looked up on the Internet what the dealer’s cost of the car is.

    Next time, step up and buy a Lexus. Right off the bat my dealership gave me a price that wasn’t worth haggling over.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @ben tillman

    Or….any ultra luxury car, like a Bentley, a Rolls, a Ferrari, Lamborghini etc.

    Only a real…is going to have the audacity to haggle over cars with a base price of 250k and up.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @prosa123

  15. @ben tillman
    @Lot


    People generally get the interest rates they deserve.
     
    Nobody deserves to get ripped off.

    Replies: @ben tillman, @dumpstersquirrel

    Nobody deserves to get ripped off.

    But most people don’t get ripped off, so maybe you’re right.

  16. @SPmoore8
    Back when I first started buying cars, with no down payment, no credit rating, and desperate because I was married with small children, I ended up paying a 40% markup from the list price over the course of a loan. Decades later, I end up paying 7% over markup over the course of the loan; and if I don't get to do it my way, I leave.

    People get charged higher rates not because they are black but because they are poor credit risks and also because the customers will take whatever they can get. If you have an established credit rating with no defaults or bankruptcies you are in a far better position to call the tune.

    The other reason why these bad deals go through is because people are not only innumerate but they are embarrassed that they are innumerate and don't bother to take a break or use a calculator to figure out exactly how much they will be paying over the course of the loan. In his reparations pitch, Ta Nehisi Coates extends this to home mortgages, as well. But, let's face it, slavery is no excuse for being bamboozled in a financial transaction.

    Now, if someone decides that predatory lending practices should cease, OK, but don't make an affirmative action case out of it. There are plenty of innumerate white people who are prone to making poor financial decisions, too. It is frankly insulting to everybody, and in particular black people, to act as though black people are uniquely stupid such that they have to be protected from poor financial decisions.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    Back when I first started buying cars, with no down payment, no credit rating, and desperate because I was married with small children, I ended up paying a 40% markup from the list price over the course of a loan. Decades later, I end up paying 7% over markup over the course of the loan; and if I don’t get to do it my way, I leave.

    My father taught me two lessons about buying cars.

    First, never to borrow money to buy a rapidly depreciating asset. He said “don’t borrow money to buy a car; if you have to borrow money to buy a car, then you shouldn’t have one.”*

    Second, never pay more than $500 above *actual* (not published) dealer cost.

    So, until I was well-off, I bought clean, reliable used cars (Hondas mostly), usually from other owners, not dealers. And even once I became fairly affluent, I never did pay more than $500 above dealer costs. Sure, that meant I frequently had to walk off a purchase, but since I had other, perfectly functioning cars, I was in no hurry. As my mother often said, if ever in doubt, don’t buy it, you’ll get plenty of chances later to spend money.

    *Of course, my wife has me beat – she comes from a family that was taught not to buy even a *house* on a loan. Her maternal grandparents and parents had no home mortgages, ever. Her grandpa came back from World War II and lived in a rental until he and his wife saved up enough money to buy a modest house (he retired as a senior VP of a large media conglomerate eventually). They don’t even borrow money for *appreciating* assets. The lessons of the Depression run strong in her family.

    • Replies: @ASF
    @Twinkie

    I think in general the advice your father gave you is good with respect to not borrowing to buy a car, but if you are able to get favorable loan terms (like 0.99% or less), then effectively the loan is more or less free if you put a substantial down payment down (I consider $1000 over 4-5 years basically free). If you're intelligent, debt can be used intelligently.

  17. Mike says: • Website

    As usual the government is looking in the wrong place. If you want to find discrimination, you can’t look at the loan terms, you must look at portfolio performance/profitability. If my ROI on my “black” loan pool is higher than that of my “white” pool, I may in fact be discriminating. I think competition really drives racial disparity to zero.

    Like Lot, I’m concerned about anyone that is going to be taken advantage of by someone with my skills and background. I think a lot of bad regulation has allowed the current situation to come into being. Back when I was a banker in the early ’90’s we wouldn’t finance payday lenders, we were very choosy about used car dealers and only financed a couple of pawn shops. Financing tote the note lots put another layer of security/repayment between us and the less than credit worthy consumer. Pawn shop loans are non-recourse so they, while having very high interest rates, are not really evil. Really shady guys could not get bank financing. All their stuff had to be done out of personal capital.

    Now we have publicly traded companies with bank financing making the payday loan racket possible on the scale we see today. Just another example of gaming the regulations. In the old days we had guys that were concerned about their reputation in the banking industry. Today, with their ability to hide behind regulation… Not so much.

    Pro tip to the iSteve community: if you see an old guy like me sitting across the table from you with an HP-12c, run. If I’m allowed to sell you a product with no clear market price, and also finance that sale, I can rip you off in one dimension or another.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Mike

    HP-12c

    It's fascinating how this ancient calculator still keeps rolling along.

    Replies: @Lot, @Whiskey, @BurplesonAFB

    , @Lot
    @Mike

    Mike, very OT, but on your blog you wondered why there aren't more high-end manufactured homes.

    I have an underdeveloped investment property in San Diego, and looked into manufactured to see if it might save me money when I build. Unfortunately, there was absolutely no design that fit, even on those websites that have a ton of different models. I even looked at east coast places that don't deliver to California and saw nothing available there either.

    I needed a design that three floors with a relatively compact footprint, and there just wasn't anyone making them.

    I also did not see any "apartment over garage" designs, which is a very common thing to do in older parts of San Diego that have gone from middle class to top 5% places, where you often have a lot zoned for two houses that current feature a nice house in front and a run-down old garage facing the back alley. Replacing the old garage with a two-floor apartment over a garage happens all the time, and seems perfect for manufactured since people are less picky about their granny flat/rental unit, but I've never seen manufactured used.

    Between these two designs, there are tens of thousands of people who might be in the market in California at this very moment, but just nothing available. Instead there is just one standard sprawling suburban style house after another for sale, plus a ton of "tiny homes" that also rarely make sense in urban California.

    Replies: @Another Canadian

    , @International Jew
    @Mike


    if you see an old guy like me sitting across the table from you with an HP-12c, run.
     
    Be even more wary of us HP-11c users: we know the formulas by heart.

    BTW, there's a great 11c app for Android. Looks and works just like the real thing, and it's free. My real 11c finally bit the dust a few years ago, sigh.
    , @Bill Jones
    @Mike

    HP12-c
    I've got two.

    As for discrimination an analysis of mortgage defaults 10 years ago showed that blacks defaulted at higher rates than whites who were paying the same interest rates.
    i.e. Blacks were preferentially treated.

  18. @WowJustWow
    But when is the Justice Department going to punish auto insurers for charging men higher rates than women?

    Replies: @Big Bill, @Anonymous Nephew

    The auto insurers are working on a way around challenges based on race, gender and age. They are experimenting with trackers on vehicles that record location, speed, acceleration rates, following distance, time/date of travel and other factors that can be used to determine likelihood of loss.

    The nice thing is that all these factors are non-discriminatory, although (doubtless) highly correlated with race/gender/age.

    • Replies: @Wilkey
    @Big Bill

    "The auto insurers are working on a way around challenges based on race, gender and age. They are experimenting with trackers on vehicles that record location, speed, acceleration rates, following distance, time/date of travel and other factors that can be used to determine likelihood of loss."

    And of course our Congress won't do a damn thing to stop them, and the NSA will be entitled to the data. So citizens will be left with a choice: yield up even more of your privacy for a cheaper insurance policy, or pay twice as much for a policy which doesn't require you to. Yet one more way in which "fighting discrimination" - an obligation which appears nowhere in the Constitution - destroys fundamental human rights.

    Replies: @Boomstick

    , @E. Rekshun
    @Big Bill

    The auto insurers are working on a way around challenges based on race, gender and age. They are experimenting with trackers on vehicles that record location, speed, acceleration rates, following distance, time/date of travel and other factors that can be used to determine likelihood of loss.

    My auto insurer, Progressive, offered to monitor my driving habits in my two vehicles by having me self-install a plug-in device under the dash of each vehicle. After about four months, Progressive had me mail the devices back to them in self-addressed, stamped envelopes. I ended up getting a 30% and an 18% discount on the two vehicles.

  19. @Mike
    As usual the government is looking in the wrong place. If you want to find discrimination, you can't look at the loan terms, you must look at portfolio performance/profitability. If my ROI on my "black" loan pool is higher than that of my "white" pool, I may in fact be discriminating. I think competition really drives racial disparity to zero.

    Like Lot, I'm concerned about anyone that is going to be taken advantage of by someone with my skills and background. I think a lot of bad regulation has allowed the current situation to come into being. Back when I was a banker in the early '90's we wouldn't finance payday lenders, we were very choosy about used car dealers and only financed a couple of pawn shops. Financing tote the note lots put another layer of security/repayment between us and the less than credit worthy consumer. Pawn shop loans are non-recourse so they, while having very high interest rates, are not really evil. Really shady guys could not get bank financing. All their stuff had to be done out of personal capital.

    Now we have publicly traded companies with bank financing making the payday loan racket possible on the scale we see today. Just another example of gaming the regulations. In the old days we had guys that were concerned about their reputation in the banking industry. Today, with their ability to hide behind regulation... Not so much.

    Pro tip to the iSteve community: if you see an old guy like me sitting across the table from you with an HP-12c, run. If I'm allowed to sell you a product with no clear market price, and also finance that sale, I can rip you off in one dimension or another.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Lot, @International Jew, @Bill Jones

    HP-12c

    It’s fascinating how this ancient calculator still keeps rolling along.

    • Replies: @Lot
    @Steve Sailer

    When I use a calculator, I have few non-negotiable requirements:

    1. It must use Reverse Polish Notation.

    2. It needs solid, reliable, Nixie Tube display, based on proven neon light technology, not so-called "liquid crystals"

    3. I can't be chained to my desk, I want the convenience of the option to use 6 D batteries

    4. Finally, I want the precision manufacturing you only find in a sewing machine company

    That's why I only use the Singer-Friden EC 1114.

    http://www.vintagecalculators.com/html/friden_ec1114.html

    , @Whiskey
    @Steve Sailer

    Once you learn it, its much faster than a spreadsheet. There are some nice emulators too. For the PC, Mac, Linux check out java based Finanx
    http://sourceforge.net/projects/finanx/

    You can run it emulated on a phone or tablet.

    , @BurplesonAFB
    @Steve Sailer

    Mostly due to the overwhelming support it receives from the Reverse-Polish-American community.

  20. It’s getting somewhat harder to find true dealer cost. “Invoice” is a laughable concept now; invoice is the new list price. The actual price is hidden in dealer incentives and holdbacks, which are more easily obscured in private dealer/factory agreements.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Boomstick


    The actual price is hidden in dealer incentives and holdbacks, which are more easily obscured in private dealer/factory agreements.
     
    There are websites that publish these. And then there are auto enthusiast fora where people (including folks who work at the dealerships) discuss these.

    Also, it helps to have an acquaintance whose father owns car dealerships and who explains all the intricacies of car pricing!

    Replies: @map, @Lot, @Bill

  21. @Big Bill
    @WowJustWow

    The auto insurers are working on a way around challenges based on race, gender and age. They are experimenting with trackers on vehicles that record location, speed, acceleration rates, following distance, time/date of travel and other factors that can be used to determine likelihood of loss.

    The nice thing is that all these factors are non-discriminatory, although (doubtless) highly correlated with race/gender/age.

    Replies: @Wilkey, @E. Rekshun

    “The auto insurers are working on a way around challenges based on race, gender and age. They are experimenting with trackers on vehicles that record location, speed, acceleration rates, following distance, time/date of travel and other factors that can be used to determine likelihood of loss.”

    And of course our Congress won’t do a damn thing to stop them, and the NSA will be entitled to the data. So citizens will be left with a choice: yield up even more of your privacy for a cheaper insurance policy, or pay twice as much for a policy which doesn’t require you to. Yet one more way in which “fighting discrimination” – an obligation which appears nowhere in the Constitution – destroys fundamental human rights.

    • Replies: @Boomstick
    @Wilkey

    States love the idea of GPS tracking, since it gives them all sorts of opportunities to tax the bejesus out of drivers. Specifically with congestion pricing for busy roads, at least to start. If they detect you on the 405 during rush hour you'll pay more.

    The automatic traffic tickets for speeding will come later.

    Replies: @Lot, @Kevin O'Keeffe

  22. @Steve Sailer
    @Mike

    HP-12c

    It's fascinating how this ancient calculator still keeps rolling along.

    Replies: @Lot, @Whiskey, @BurplesonAFB

    When I use a calculator, I have few non-negotiable requirements:

    1. It must use Reverse Polish Notation.

    2. It needs solid, reliable, Nixie Tube display, based on proven neon light technology, not so-called “liquid crystals”

    3. I can’t be chained to my desk, I want the convenience of the option to use 6 D batteries

    4. Finally, I want the precision manufacturing you only find in a sewing machine company

    That’s why I only use the Singer-Friden EC 1114.

    http://www.vintagecalculators.com/html/friden_ec1114.html

  23. So, it’s illegal to trick an innumerate illegal alien into an exploitive loan, but it’s okay to trick an innumerate white American citizen into the same loan? Perhaps we should experiment instead with this crazy idea called the equal protection of the law?

    They don’t come out and say white people are trash who don’t deserve equal protection, they just treat them like it. Do that often enough and eventually everyone gets the message without having to be explicitly told. That’s how anti-white bigotry works.

    Through their acts they can show that whites are low status, that their interests and welfare don’t matter, without having to say that.

    The only way to fight this is to talk about what they are doing, by talking about anti-white bigotry. Force it out into the open.

  24. “To lure the borrowers, the department said, the dealerships were situated in overwhelmingly African-American neighborhoods.”

    If they didn’t, we would be hearing about “car deserts”.

    Car-title loan joints, pay-day loan outfits, extended warranty hucksters, etc. – we really are becoming a nation of grifters.

  25. @Wilkey
    @Big Bill

    "The auto insurers are working on a way around challenges based on race, gender and age. They are experimenting with trackers on vehicles that record location, speed, acceleration rates, following distance, time/date of travel and other factors that can be used to determine likelihood of loss."

    And of course our Congress won't do a damn thing to stop them, and the NSA will be entitled to the data. So citizens will be left with a choice: yield up even more of your privacy for a cheaper insurance policy, or pay twice as much for a policy which doesn't require you to. Yet one more way in which "fighting discrimination" - an obligation which appears nowhere in the Constitution - destroys fundamental human rights.

    Replies: @Boomstick

    States love the idea of GPS tracking, since it gives them all sorts of opportunities to tax the bejesus out of drivers. Specifically with congestion pricing for busy roads, at least to start. If they detect you on the 405 during rush hour you’ll pay more.

    The automatic traffic tickets for speeding will come later.

    • Replies: @Lot
    @Boomstick


    If they detect you on the 405 during rush hour you’ll pay more.
     
    The 110 has had congestion pricing for single-drivers in its fancy, separated, two-lane-wide car pool lane for about 2 years now and it's great. The charge peaks at $10 during rush hour, and saves you about 20 minutes. I think it would be great if more roads were like this.

    Even if you don't normally value your time at $30 an hour, you might be running late, or you might just hate sitting in traffic above and beyond the time waste. We never had traffic except due to accidents where I grew up, and here in San Diego we have LA's extensive freeway system but 1/6 the population and much less traffic. Rush hour traffic around downtown San Diego means going 45 or 50 rather than 80. So when I need to go to LA, it makes me nuts to deal with the traffic. I support toll roads so strongly I take the 73 through Orange County even when there is no traffic on the 5.

    Replies: @Boomstick

    , @Kevin O'Keeffe
    @Boomstick

    "The automatic traffic tickets for speeding will come later."

    If they're going to sell me a car that can go more than 65 MPH (or whatever the local maximum limit is), and that car is going to auto-notify the goverment, every single time I exceed that limit, then the obvious implication is that I have been sold a defective vehicle (one that goes faster than it should), and that there would thus need to be a class action lawsuit against the manufacturer, in order to recoup those costs on behalf of all those so fined.

    Not much recourse for auto-reported speed violations in zones below the local maximum limit, however ie., such as going 38 in a 25, or whatnot.

  26. Er wasn’t the US government the majority stockholder in GMAC/Ally Bank ? It had to be taken over after it became insolvent making subprime loans via its DiTech home loan division. I’d have to look it up but for the longest time it was the only big bank that couldn’t repay the TARP financing it received which is why the US Government owned it. Maybe Holder should arrest Tim Geithner or Ben Bernanke or whomever it was that had operational control over Ally Bank.

  27. i am a WASP with a phd. In the 90s I bought a new car. In the pile of documents I was forced to sign they slipped in some funny kind of extra insurance and I didn’t notice. About a month later I noticed it and managed to get it canceled. Probably a lower iq person never would have figured it out.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Foreign Expert


    i am a WASP with a phd. In the 90s I bought a new car. In the pile of documents I was forced to sign they slipped in some funny kind of extra insurance and I didn’t notice. About a month later I noticed it and managed to get it canceled. Probably a lower iq person never would have figured it out.
     
    I don't know if this is strictly an IQ issue. More attention to detail issue.

    I know people who are not exactly bright, but insist on reading every single word of every document before signing anything.
    , @Truth
    @Foreign Expert

    " In the pile of documents I was forced to sign they slipped in some funny kind of extra insurance and I didn’t notice. About a month later I noticed it and managed to get it canceled."

    Or a higher IQ person might not have signed in the first place. Hey, don't shoot the messenger, comrade...

    Replies: @Foreign Expert

  28. Mr. Corkery and Ms Silver-Greenberg have been writing pieces in the Times about the horrors of subprime auto lending every couple of weeks, it seems, since at least last year.

    I agree with them that people can and do get ripped off, and it can sometimes be a pretty shady business. But they never ever suggest that the borrower shares any responsibility. They just can’t come out and say the truth: some people are not very smart or prudent, and need to be protected from themselves. I think arguing for paternalism would be more effective than just bashing capitalism, but whatever.

    The piece I thought was most interesting was this one from last September, on starter interruption devices:

    http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/09/24/miss-a-payment-good-luck-moving-that-car/

    Seems like this fairly new technology could help explain why this market has been booming. But oddly, after the original article, this factor never seems to be mentioned any of their subsequent articles.

    • Replies: @jo S'more
    @dude


    The piece I thought was most interesting was this one from last September, on starter interruption devices:

    http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/09/24/miss-a-payment-good-luck-moving-that-car/

    Seems like this fairly new technology could help explain why this market has been booming. But oddly, after the original article, this factor never seems to be mentioned any of their subsequent articles.

     

    Would there be disparate impact such that certain protected groups would end up being the ones whose cars wouldn't start?
  29. “What exactly is the ACLU up to these days? You used to hear about it all the time, but now it seems to maintain a much lower profile. It seems to now be on the side of government, as Ms. Gupta’s career path suggests.”

    David Bernstein:

    The ACLU used to be primarily a civil liberties organization, albeit one dominated by a liberal worldview. It has gradually become a liberal pressure group with some (and declining) interest in civil liberties.

    There is at least one Bernstein follow-up post, suggesting that there is some sort of struggle from within the ACLU. But much like the Sierra Club, the totalitarian diversicrats are adept at co-opting the institutions dominated by yesterday’s liberals.

    The tidal wave of Autocracy is riding the coattails of Diversity.

  30. @Mike
    As usual the government is looking in the wrong place. If you want to find discrimination, you can't look at the loan terms, you must look at portfolio performance/profitability. If my ROI on my "black" loan pool is higher than that of my "white" pool, I may in fact be discriminating. I think competition really drives racial disparity to zero.

    Like Lot, I'm concerned about anyone that is going to be taken advantage of by someone with my skills and background. I think a lot of bad regulation has allowed the current situation to come into being. Back when I was a banker in the early '90's we wouldn't finance payday lenders, we were very choosy about used car dealers and only financed a couple of pawn shops. Financing tote the note lots put another layer of security/repayment between us and the less than credit worthy consumer. Pawn shop loans are non-recourse so they, while having very high interest rates, are not really evil. Really shady guys could not get bank financing. All their stuff had to be done out of personal capital.

    Now we have publicly traded companies with bank financing making the payday loan racket possible on the scale we see today. Just another example of gaming the regulations. In the old days we had guys that were concerned about their reputation in the banking industry. Today, with their ability to hide behind regulation... Not so much.

    Pro tip to the iSteve community: if you see an old guy like me sitting across the table from you with an HP-12c, run. If I'm allowed to sell you a product with no clear market price, and also finance that sale, I can rip you off in one dimension or another.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Lot, @International Jew, @Bill Jones

    Mike, very OT, but on your blog you wondered why there aren’t more high-end manufactured homes.

    I have an underdeveloped investment property in San Diego, and looked into manufactured to see if it might save me money when I build. Unfortunately, there was absolutely no design that fit, even on those websites that have a ton of different models. I even looked at east coast places that don’t deliver to California and saw nothing available there either.

    I needed a design that three floors with a relatively compact footprint, and there just wasn’t anyone making them.

    I also did not see any “apartment over garage” designs, which is a very common thing to do in older parts of San Diego that have gone from middle class to top 5% places, where you often have a lot zoned for two houses that current feature a nice house in front and a run-down old garage facing the back alley. Replacing the old garage with a two-floor apartment over a garage happens all the time, and seems perfect for manufactured since people are less picky about their granny flat/rental unit, but I’ve never seen manufactured used.

    Between these two designs, there are tens of thousands of people who might be in the market in California at this very moment, but just nothing available. Instead there is just one standard sprawling suburban style house after another for sale, plus a ton of “tiny homes” that also rarely make sense in urban California.

    • Replies: @Another Canadian
    @Lot


    Mike, very OT, but on your blog you wondered why there aren’t more high-end manufactured homes.
     
    Manufactured homes (as opposed to "trailers") got their start in Florida for retirees. Retirees don't really need "high-end."

    I needed a design that three floors with a relatively compact footprint, and there just wasn’t anyone making them.
     
    Florida retirees don't really need and certainly don't want three floors, so you don't see any manufactured housing that can do that job. But I agree, there is demand out there for configurable manufactured housing. Gentrifying inner cities are changing their zoning to allow "granny flats," garage apartments, etc. and manufactured housing is a good solution for this market.

    BTW, resident-owned manufactured home communities in Florida for retirees are booming. Not your grandpa's trailer park.

  31. @Boomstick
    @Wilkey

    States love the idea of GPS tracking, since it gives them all sorts of opportunities to tax the bejesus out of drivers. Specifically with congestion pricing for busy roads, at least to start. If they detect you on the 405 during rush hour you'll pay more.

    The automatic traffic tickets for speeding will come later.

    Replies: @Lot, @Kevin O'Keeffe

    If they detect you on the 405 during rush hour you’ll pay more.

    The 110 has had congestion pricing for single-drivers in its fancy, separated, two-lane-wide car pool lane for about 2 years now and it’s great. The charge peaks at $10 during rush hour, and saves you about 20 minutes. I think it would be great if more roads were like this.

    Even if you don’t normally value your time at $30 an hour, you might be running late, or you might just hate sitting in traffic above and beyond the time waste. We never had traffic except due to accidents where I grew up, and here in San Diego we have LA’s extensive freeway system but 1/6 the population and much less traffic. Rush hour traffic around downtown San Diego means going 45 or 50 rather than 80. So when I need to go to LA, it makes me nuts to deal with the traffic. I support toll roads so strongly I take the 73 through Orange County even when there is no traffic on the 5.

    • Replies: @Boomstick
    @Lot

    I wouldn't mind paying more for congestion pricing, say be dropping a fiver into the basket at the toll booth, but doing it via GPS tracking is a bad idea. The tracking data will inevitably be used for nefarious purposes by the government. You can imagine the mayor using the information to raise questions about your visit to the No-Tell Motel at 1 AM on a weekday, or your frequenting of the strip club parking lot, or how often you drive after a 3-hour visit to the saloon.

    Replies: @Lot

  32. @ben tillman

    That reminds me that in both Chicago and Los Angeles, I’ve been discriminated against in Toyota dealerships. I’ve several times been ignored by salesmen who don’t want to deal with an intelligent-looking white guy who no doubt has looked up on the Internet what the dealer’s cost of the car is.
     
    Next time, step up and buy a Lexus. Right off the bat my dealership gave me a price that wasn't worth haggling over.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Or….any ultra luxury car, like a Bentley, a Rolls, a Ferrari, Lamborghini etc.

    Only a real…is going to have the audacity to haggle over cars with a base price of 250k and up.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi


    Or….any ultra luxury car, like a Bentley, a Rolls, a Ferrari, Lamborghini etc.

    Only a real…is going to have the audacity to haggle over cars with a base price of 250k and up.
     
    One benefit of the internet age is that on transactions like these, I don't have to waste time. Most car dealerships now have internet pricing departments. I just send an e-mail with all the options and the final pricing/tax/fee request, and I select based on the best bid. Sometimes I might have to negotiate a little bit among the 2 or 3 best offers by playing one offer against another, but it's pretty easy.

    Once you let the dealers know that you know about their monthly quotas, manufacturer incentives, etc. and know that they are not dealing with a joker, most of them don't try to waste your time. One dealership where I bought three cars before knows the whole routine with me and just gives me all the specs plus final settlement price when queried.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    , @prosa123
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Jalopnik had an amusing article about an owner trying to sell a used (but still extremely expensive) Ferrari. Would-be buyers were insanely picky, which is typical for vehicles like that, demanding full details and receipts for every service ever performed. One of them slashed his offer by thousands of dollars because the owner once had had a tire changed at an ordinary tire shop rather than at a Ferrari dealership.
    Amusingly, Jalopnik calls very expensive cars like a Ferrari or Lamborghini "Point A to Point A cars." Owners take the cars out of their garages, drive then around for a while, and then return them to the garages. They don't drive the cars to any actual destinations.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

  33. Ok, its been waiting to be said. Holder is channelling his inner Gladwell regarding shady car dealers who tend to target blacks one way or another.

    From Ferguson to car dealers. Holder keeps on finding things to get all excited about. Guess he isn’t leaving anytime soon.

    For this latest outrage of his, he should do the honorable thing and invite Malcolm Gladwell to the White House so he can better advise him on what to look for whenever car dealers are about to rip off potential African-American car consumers.

  34. @Lot
    @Boomstick


    If they detect you on the 405 during rush hour you’ll pay more.
     
    The 110 has had congestion pricing for single-drivers in its fancy, separated, two-lane-wide car pool lane for about 2 years now and it's great. The charge peaks at $10 during rush hour, and saves you about 20 minutes. I think it would be great if more roads were like this.

    Even if you don't normally value your time at $30 an hour, you might be running late, or you might just hate sitting in traffic above and beyond the time waste. We never had traffic except due to accidents where I grew up, and here in San Diego we have LA's extensive freeway system but 1/6 the population and much less traffic. Rush hour traffic around downtown San Diego means going 45 or 50 rather than 80. So when I need to go to LA, it makes me nuts to deal with the traffic. I support toll roads so strongly I take the 73 through Orange County even when there is no traffic on the 5.

    Replies: @Boomstick

    I wouldn’t mind paying more for congestion pricing, say be dropping a fiver into the basket at the toll booth, but doing it via GPS tracking is a bad idea. The tracking data will inevitably be used for nefarious purposes by the government. You can imagine the mayor using the information to raise questions about your visit to the No-Tell Motel at 1 AM on a weekday, or your frequenting of the strip club parking lot, or how often you drive after a 3-hour visit to the saloon.

    • Replies: @Lot
    @Boomstick

    I completely agree that GPS road tax, or just looking at mileage over the the course of the year, is a really bad idea. We already have a good system in place to tax road usage: the gas tax.

    The good things about the gas tax are legion:

    1. Impossible to avoid, so illegals, income tax cheats, etc all have to pay
    2. Taxes dirty vehicles higher than green ones
    3. Taxes cars are take up more room as slow down traffic, like hummers, over smaller cars that are more pleasant to share the road with

    California just passed a brilliant back-door gas tax increase. Rather than face the huge, misguided white prole populist opposition to gas taxes, who don't realize the benefits of gas taxes, we instead have a state-wide "cap and trade" that hits two groups heavily: coal power plants and oil to gas refiners, who then pass on part of the tax to consumers. Now would be a great time for other progressive states to join us and do the same thing.

    The timing was also brilliant, since it took effect on 1/1/15, just as oil prices were plunging and bringing gas prices down with it. Californians were happy to see the resulting gas price decrease, and didn't realize that even as our gas prices went down, they went down a lot less than in other states because of the back-door gas tax increase.

    Beyond all these considerations, setting up a new tax system and forcing people to put in GPS in their cars, and setting up a computer system to track it, is a really wasteful way to collect taxes compared to just raising the existing gas tax.

  35. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @ben tillman

    Or….any ultra luxury car, like a Bentley, a Rolls, a Ferrari, Lamborghini etc.

    Only a real…is going to have the audacity to haggle over cars with a base price of 250k and up.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @prosa123

    Or….any ultra luxury car, like a Bentley, a Rolls, a Ferrari, Lamborghini etc.

    Only a real…is going to have the audacity to haggle over cars with a base price of 250k and up.

    One benefit of the internet age is that on transactions like these, I don’t have to waste time. Most car dealerships now have internet pricing departments. I just send an e-mail with all the options and the final pricing/tax/fee request, and I select based on the best bid. Sometimes I might have to negotiate a little bit among the 2 or 3 best offers by playing one offer against another, but it’s pretty easy.

    Once you let the dealers know that you know about their monthly quotas, manufacturer incentives, etc. and know that they are not dealing with a joker, most of them don’t try to waste your time. One dealership where I bought three cars before knows the whole routine with me and just gives me all the specs plus final settlement price when queried.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Twinkie

    And again, its highly unlikely that you'd have to do all that with top 1% of ultra luxury autos. They aren't trying to hustle and you don't have to haggle.

    After all, there IS no quota with Rolls Royce, etc. since they only sell about 2k or so per yr total, worldwide. They're not trying to bust all records in their branch sales. Their commission isn't really the same as those salesmen who work for Ford, Toyota, etc.

    Either the Saudi's fifteenth son from his sixth wife, the one who is seventh in line for the royal throne decides to buy a fleet of Rolls and Bentleys that particular week, or decides to wait til after Ramadan is over, a few months later.

    For the top 1% of cars that are within the top 1%, its really not that hard to know who the main buyers are (e.g. Musicians/some entertainers; Saudi/UAE Royalty; a couple international drug dealers; etc).

    Funny, you never see Bill Gates; Mark Zukerberg; Warren Buffet driving around in a Rolls Royce.

    Why?

    It isn't gauche since that car and other comparable cars have a long established history of selling to elite money as well as royalty around the world. Almost like they've given up their privilege of being elite when it comes to the cars they drive.

    Very strange.

    The very group that can well afford a couple of Rolls and they don't purchase them.

    Strange.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Reg Cæsar

  36. @Foreign Expert
    i am a WASP with a phd. In the 90s I bought a new car. In the pile of documents I was forced to sign they slipped in some funny kind of extra insurance and I didn't notice. About a month later I noticed it and managed to get it canceled. Probably a lower iq person never would have figured it out.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Truth

    i am a WASP with a phd. In the 90s I bought a new car. In the pile of documents I was forced to sign they slipped in some funny kind of extra insurance and I didn’t notice. About a month later I noticed it and managed to get it canceled. Probably a lower iq person never would have figured it out.

    I don’t know if this is strictly an IQ issue. More attention to detail issue.

    I know people who are not exactly bright, but insist on reading every single word of every document before signing anything.

  37. @Boomstick
    It's getting somewhat harder to find true dealer cost. "Invoice" is a laughable concept now; invoice is the new list price. The actual price is hidden in dealer incentives and holdbacks, which are more easily obscured in private dealer/factory agreements.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    The actual price is hidden in dealer incentives and holdbacks, which are more easily obscured in private dealer/factory agreements.

    There are websites that publish these. And then there are auto enthusiast fora where people (including folks who work at the dealerships) discuss these.

    Also, it helps to have an acquaintance whose father owns car dealerships and who explains all the intricacies of car pricing!

    • Replies: @map
    @Twinkie

    "There are websites that publish these. And then there are auto enthusiast fora where people (including folks who work at the dealerships) discuss these."

    Which websites publish these?

    Replies: @Twinkie

    , @Lot
    @Twinkie

    Nice to see some gentiles who take pride in never paying retail when it can be avoided!

    My last two cars, late model used, I did a big search on cars.com, picked out the ones I like best, and sent in about a dozen low-ball offers until I got a bite from a dealer. I was OK paying a bit extra for a dealer used car knowing the paperwork will be quick and ready for me in minutes when I find what i like, and no games of phone tag to visit each private party seller.

    eBay Motors is another good option if you have a very specific desire and don't mind paying $500 to have a car shipped across the country. When I was thinking of getting an El Camino, I noted the ebay prices were a lot cheaper in the midwest than California.

    Replies: @Stan D Mute

    , @Bill
    @Twinkie

    I used to do this, but I don't see the point any more.

    The distribution of prices paid at car dealerships is bimodal. There is a big mode just a little under sticker---that's all the fools who have no clue what they are supposed to pay. There is another big mode around dealer cost + $500---that's all the people who know what they are supposed to pay. Back in the bad old days, the way you signaled to the dealer that you were a member of the low mode was to go through the rigmarole of sitting at the dealer arguing and making them chase you into the parking lot two or three times.

    Why do it now, though? Just go through Consumer Reports car pricing service (which, I guess is subcontracted to TrueCar). That tells the dealer you are not one of the suckers. Maybe you could get an extra hundred or two off by sitting and fighting, but why bother? That's an unpleasant way to make a couple hundred bucks, no? I suspect it's what you say, though. It's just white guy status whoring. I got $50 more off than you did!

    Of course the other problem is the trade-in. Because pricing of used cars is much more customized (i.e. condition-dependent in ways that it is hard for consumers to evaluate) than pricing of new cars, it's much harder to know what your used car is worth. I've been driving my current car for years longer than I anticipated doing so because I walked from multiple places over the trade-in value they were offering.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  38. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    ‘Red-lining’, ‘predatory lending’, ‘reverse red-lining’.

    Whites just simply cannot win. Every possible commercial business interaction between black and white in the USA is somehow twisted to make blacks the perpetual’ eternal poor innocent lamb like victims, and whites the unscrupulous cunning aggressors.
    The whole thing reminds me strongly of the psychological phenomenon of ‘paranoid schizophrenia’ – the real clinical meaning of the term and not the street populist meaning. That is the unshakeable delusions held by the afflicted, which bear absolutely no relation to the real world, and in fact are likely to be the antithesis of reality, but, nevertheless, the delusions are all ‘too true’ to the schizophrenic.

  39. @Steve Sailer
    @Mike

    HP-12c

    It's fascinating how this ancient calculator still keeps rolling along.

    Replies: @Lot, @Whiskey, @BurplesonAFB

    Once you learn it, its much faster than a spreadsheet. There are some nice emulators too. For the PC, Mac, Linux check out java based Finanx
    http://sourceforge.net/projects/finanx/

    You can run it emulated on a phone or tablet.

  40. “Mike, very OT, but on your blog you wondered why there aren’t more high-end manufactured homes.”

    My brother put a nice model manufactured house on part of his property in Temecula. Been through about 7 years now and three tenants, including a young Indian couple who absolutely trashed the place. It cleaned up well, and now is held in tenancy by a nice white semi-professional couple (two RNs –opposite sex). I would have no problem living in the place…pretty much equivalent to the late 1950s ‘Floodplain’ Orange County stick built we grew up in.

    • Replies: @Lot
    @M_Young

    Yes, Temecula is a perfect place to do manufactured since the lot sizes are large and perfect for the typical manufactured plans.

    I've been there many times. The mountains and desert is a really beautiful, but I could never live so far from real civilization and with 90% of the businesses chain stores in strip malls. Plus it is sort of stupid for me to move 3000 miles away from my family to a place that just looks like the nicer parts of Midwest suburbia, but with palm trees and three times as expensive real estate.

    Or if i did do that, to California outer suburbs that still have the same 9.4% income tax when Nevada has 0% and Arizona is think is around 4 or 5%.

    I also like the the feel of 60's-era suburbs of both LA and San Diego, that's when the suburbs of my town were built growing up, so they remind me of home more than the fancier new suburbs further out into the exurbs. The newer suburbs that aren't quite as remote as Temecula, like Carmel Valley, have a sort of claustrophobic 4000sf houses on 3000sf lots all crammed together. 1800sf homes on a 6000sf lots is much more my style. I think Steve's house is more like that too.

  41. @Twinkie
    @Boomstick


    The actual price is hidden in dealer incentives and holdbacks, which are more easily obscured in private dealer/factory agreements.
     
    There are websites that publish these. And then there are auto enthusiast fora where people (including folks who work at the dealerships) discuss these.

    Also, it helps to have an acquaintance whose father owns car dealerships and who explains all the intricacies of car pricing!

    Replies: @map, @Lot, @Bill

    “There are websites that publish these. And then there are auto enthusiast fora where people (including folks who work at the dealerships) discuss these.”

    Which websites publish these?

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @map


    Which websites publish these?
     
    Start here: http://www.edmunds.com/car-incentives/

    And exercise your Google-fu for more. The really juicy information is given out buy car enthusiasts who also happen to be dealership employees on auto brand forums.

    Replies: @Bill Jones

  42. The corporations have decided to get in bed with the SJW crowd so I really don’t feel sorry for them. In fact I hope Holder et al. continue their search for dastardly discrimination by corporations.

  43. @Boomstick
    @Lot

    I wouldn't mind paying more for congestion pricing, say be dropping a fiver into the basket at the toll booth, but doing it via GPS tracking is a bad idea. The tracking data will inevitably be used for nefarious purposes by the government. You can imagine the mayor using the information to raise questions about your visit to the No-Tell Motel at 1 AM on a weekday, or your frequenting of the strip club parking lot, or how often you drive after a 3-hour visit to the saloon.

    Replies: @Lot

    I completely agree that GPS road tax, or just looking at mileage over the the course of the year, is a really bad idea. We already have a good system in place to tax road usage: the gas tax.

    The good things about the gas tax are legion:

    1. Impossible to avoid, so illegals, income tax cheats, etc all have to pay
    2. Taxes dirty vehicles higher than green ones
    3. Taxes cars are take up more room as slow down traffic, like hummers, over smaller cars that are more pleasant to share the road with

    California just passed a brilliant back-door gas tax increase. Rather than face the huge, misguided white prole populist opposition to gas taxes, who don’t realize the benefits of gas taxes, we instead have a state-wide “cap and trade” that hits two groups heavily: coal power plants and oil to gas refiners, who then pass on part of the tax to consumers. Now would be a great time for other progressive states to join us and do the same thing.

    The timing was also brilliant, since it took effect on 1/1/15, just as oil prices were plunging and bringing gas prices down with it. Californians were happy to see the resulting gas price decrease, and didn’t realize that even as our gas prices went down, they went down a lot less than in other states because of the back-door gas tax increase.

    Beyond all these considerations, setting up a new tax system and forcing people to put in GPS in their cars, and setting up a computer system to track it, is a really wasteful way to collect taxes compared to just raising the existing gas tax.

  44. @Foreign Expert
    i am a WASP with a phd. In the 90s I bought a new car. In the pile of documents I was forced to sign they slipped in some funny kind of extra insurance and I didn't notice. About a month later I noticed it and managed to get it canceled. Probably a lower iq person never would have figured it out.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Truth

    ” In the pile of documents I was forced to sign they slipped in some funny kind of extra insurance and I didn’t notice. About a month later I noticed it and managed to get it canceled.”

    Or a higher IQ person might not have signed in the first place. Hey, don’t shoot the messenger, comrade…

    • Replies: @Foreign Expert
    @Truth

    My point was that the dealers use deception and if above average IQ types can be tricked, think of what they get away with, with the other half of the human race.

  45. @M_Young
    "Mike, very OT, but on your blog you wondered why there aren’t more high-end manufactured homes."

    My brother put a nice model manufactured house on part of his property in Temecula. Been through about 7 years now and three tenants, including a young Indian couple who absolutely trashed the place. It cleaned up well, and now is held in tenancy by a nice white semi-professional couple (two RNs --opposite sex). I would have no problem living in the place...pretty much equivalent to the late 1950s 'Floodplain' Orange County stick built we grew up in.

    Replies: @Lot

    Yes, Temecula is a perfect place to do manufactured since the lot sizes are large and perfect for the typical manufactured plans.

    I’ve been there many times. The mountains and desert is a really beautiful, but I could never live so far from real civilization and with 90% of the businesses chain stores in strip malls. Plus it is sort of stupid for me to move 3000 miles away from my family to a place that just looks like the nicer parts of Midwest suburbia, but with palm trees and three times as expensive real estate.

    Or if i did do that, to California outer suburbs that still have the same 9.4% income tax when Nevada has 0% and Arizona is think is around 4 or 5%.

    I also like the the feel of 60’s-era suburbs of both LA and San Diego, that’s when the suburbs of my town were built growing up, so they remind me of home more than the fancier new suburbs further out into the exurbs. The newer suburbs that aren’t quite as remote as Temecula, like Carmel Valley, have a sort of claustrophobic 4000sf houses on 3000sf lots all crammed together. 1800sf homes on a 6000sf lots is much more my style. I think Steve’s house is more like that too.

  46. I dated an hispanic girl, first generation, worked a white collar job, worked check to check, lived in an expensive apartment. She got a settlement for a car accident she was in and was awarded $50K.

    Immediately, she was making plans on how to dole out her “winnings” to her immediate family, and to spend it on frivolities. She was in her early twenties. This was in 1995.
    I told her if she put some money aside into the stock market, and pretended she didn’t have it for at least ten years, she’d have a nice nest egg for her to retire. She couldn’t deal with the idea. I told her to buy 1K shares of Apple when it was at 15, btw.

    Had she done what I advised, since apple has quintupled the stock since then, and added dividends, she would currently have no financial worries, and a money tree of dividends every quarter.

    She doled it all out to her relatives, and on a fancy vacation, blowing the entire amount in a year. She still lives in an apartment, not much savings, living check to check.
    I explained all she needed to know. The what, how, and why of it, over and over and over. She was too stupid to hear a thing. So this “educate them” business isn’t all some make it out to be.

    If you’re too stupid, you will sit and nod your head while something is explained to you, and you will still do the stupid thing.

    • Replies: @Jean Cocteausten
    @Eric B

    It's not stupidity, it's choosing to live for today instead of plan for the future. I just wish society was more willing to let the bill come due on people like that instead of looking on them as victims of bad luck.

  47. It is one of the duties of the Government to prevent citizens from being ripped off like this. Predatory lenders are criminals and deserve prison sentences.

    • Replies: @Mike Sylwester
    @Bliss


    Predatory lenders are criminals and deserve prison sentences.
     
    In order to convict someone, you have to prove that he has violated a law.

    Because the Obama Administration cannot prove such violations, it has to resort to bogus accusations of racial discrimination.

  48. @Twinkie
    @Boomstick


    The actual price is hidden in dealer incentives and holdbacks, which are more easily obscured in private dealer/factory agreements.
     
    There are websites that publish these. And then there are auto enthusiast fora where people (including folks who work at the dealerships) discuss these.

    Also, it helps to have an acquaintance whose father owns car dealerships and who explains all the intricacies of car pricing!

    Replies: @map, @Lot, @Bill

    Nice to see some gentiles who take pride in never paying retail when it can be avoided!

    My last two cars, late model used, I did a big search on cars.com, picked out the ones I like best, and sent in about a dozen low-ball offers until I got a bite from a dealer. I was OK paying a bit extra for a dealer used car knowing the paperwork will be quick and ready for me in minutes when I find what i like, and no games of phone tag to visit each private party seller.

    eBay Motors is another good option if you have a very specific desire and don’t mind paying $500 to have a car shipped across the country. When I was thinking of getting an El Camino, I noted the ebay prices were a lot cheaper in the midwest than California.

    • Replies: @Stan D Mute
    @Lot


    eBay Motors is another good option if you have a very specific desire and don’t mind paying $500 to have a car shipped across the country. When I was thinking of getting an El Camino, I noted the ebay prices were a lot cheaper in the midwest than California.
     
    Ebay is a crapshoot. Then again, unless you really know cars, dealers, and dealer tricks, used cars are a crapshoot in general. The record services like CarFax are helpful, but by no means foolproof. You could invest in (or pool with friends) a good paint meter that will measure the paint thickness on body panels (be sure it does both aluminum and steel) or just pay for a comprehensive PPI for each car you intend to purchase.

    The regional price differences are real, but mostly at the wholesale level where transportation costs come into play and where the extra week or two in delivery is a big issue for the dealers' lot financing which is typically 90-day. Once the unit goes onto eBay, that regional or local soft market pricing turns into seller profit as he's selling into the national average. Your savings is your local sellers' market versus the national average. If you find a unit that seems like a really smoking hot deal, it may be but you need to very very quickly ascertain whether it's that or a rip-off and the average buyer just isn't equipped to do that.

    As much as it pains me to write this, for the average used car buyer of a modern technologically complicated car, Carmax might be your best option with their in-house warranty. Shop them and negotiate hard, then buy their warranty (but never ever buy a third party warranty!). There is a good series of blog posts explaining the whys of this by a former Porsche manager who bought a Range Rover from Carmax. Google Doug Demuro Carmax Range Rover.
  49. @Lot

    What exactly is the ACLU up to these days?
     
    The ACLU opposes censorship of library books, but supports making libraries unbearable to visit by representing horrible-smelling homeless people who want to hang out all day in the library.

    In my experience, librarians are really nice people. I trust them to not wantonly kick people out who are not causing any harm or disruption. But the ACLU is OK with turning them into de facto homeless shelters / bum-computer-porn-masterbation safe places.

    Replies: @Michelle

    Wrong! Librarians are not nice! They are the epitome of all that is evil! They are all card carrying members of the ACLU. They are nasty, intolerant lefties for the most part and they cater to the public masturbators, men who use women’s restrooms, and smelly, violent, homeless people and encourage bad behavior in children and teenagers, even though the majority of them have no children of their own. I work at a library and try to avoid interacting with “public” masturbators, smelly patrons and librarians as much as I possibly can.

    • Replies: @Bill
    @Michelle

    I enjoy your comments about libraries.

    , @Art Deco
    @Michelle

    You don't know any, or understand their systematic shortcomings.

    , @JustAnotherGuyWitha1911
    @Michelle

    In the more things change category - I was a page in a library back in the day - late 80's. I would shelve everything real quick and wait till I got to the 900's and then read history books until the buzzer rang. The buzzer meant a request from the librarians F.O.B. to pull some magazines that were, of course, never where they were supposed to be.

    I was dressed down by the queer running the desk as not being cut out for being a page? Really? Despite the hard time my family would give me, being treated like shit by some geriatric homosexual was pretty disheartening. Now, I know that chicks sometimes get a hard time time in the iSteveO'sphere but the head circulation chick , a crusty old wench, was, like, "screw him. We're gonna have a talk."

    He left me alone after that.

    Jerry the Polish maintenance guy was always throwing out fornicating teenagers from the stairwell that let from the Children's dept. to the main floor.

    Cornrell - a middle aged black guy kept the kids alles in ordung.

    Ken - who musta been 90 told me a lesson he learned in the steel factories of PA back in the day - always carry something in your hand.

    Once - one librarian hit on a sixteen years old coworker. In my lawyer years, he showed up at the office, can't remember exactly why, but it was some pervy shit he was into.

    Alex - a fellow page - wanted to play Woody Guthry as punk. Wilco stole his idea. He ended up as a pediatrician.

    I miss the world that was. I truly do.

    Looking back,
    so far away now
    it all seems so close
    but we're all living on borrowed time
    and dancing with yesterday's ghost

    ArtDeco - you are f*ing tool.

    Chick who wrote about being a librarian. I ain't a white knighter. Chances are you'd walk over my dead body in the street. So be it. But, can't help it, I got a thing for library girls

    https://youtu.be/wPSV8CsshnM

    1911 - out.

  50. Who buys cars from dealers? Go on Craigslist and buy a car from an owner … Then YOU can take advantage of THEM….it’s a win-win….except for the guy who lost

  51. Mike Zwick [AKA "Dahinda"] says:

    I went to a car dealership in Chicago and the salesman came up to me and started speaking Polish. I looked at him like I didn’t understand and then he started speaking either Russian or Ukrainian. I still looked puzzled and he started going “you not Polish, what are you Lithuanian? German?” I said I’m American, there are still some of us around!

    • Replies: @melo
    @Mike Zwick

    There's a 10% city sales tax in Chicago if you buy from a car dealer. If you live in the city you owe the tax even if you buy the car in the suburbs. This is especially painful knowing who is going to get your money... The only cost effective solution is Craigslist.

  52. Anonymous [AKA "bleh"] says:

    So I’m taking a coursera course on asset pricing: stochastic differential equations, marginal utilities, covariances, etc. We haven’t gotten to the unit on factor models that include civil rights lawyers yet, maybe that’s part two?

  53. I used Carmax on my last purchase. We told the guy what we were looking foe, he gave us options, and the price was the price. Two hours in and out.

  54. Won’t be long before Tom Dundon is offered an ambassadorship…

    http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2015/01/26/investment-riches-built-on-auto-loans-to-poor/?_r=2

    There are huge amounts of capital invested in the auto subprime loan business which quickly become securitized and placed in your pension fund.

  55. @Lot
    @Mike

    Mike, very OT, but on your blog you wondered why there aren't more high-end manufactured homes.

    I have an underdeveloped investment property in San Diego, and looked into manufactured to see if it might save me money when I build. Unfortunately, there was absolutely no design that fit, even on those websites that have a ton of different models. I even looked at east coast places that don't deliver to California and saw nothing available there either.

    I needed a design that three floors with a relatively compact footprint, and there just wasn't anyone making them.

    I also did not see any "apartment over garage" designs, which is a very common thing to do in older parts of San Diego that have gone from middle class to top 5% places, where you often have a lot zoned for two houses that current feature a nice house in front and a run-down old garage facing the back alley. Replacing the old garage with a two-floor apartment over a garage happens all the time, and seems perfect for manufactured since people are less picky about their granny flat/rental unit, but I've never seen manufactured used.

    Between these two designs, there are tens of thousands of people who might be in the market in California at this very moment, but just nothing available. Instead there is just one standard sprawling suburban style house after another for sale, plus a ton of "tiny homes" that also rarely make sense in urban California.

    Replies: @Another Canadian

    Mike, very OT, but on your blog you wondered why there aren’t more high-end manufactured homes.

    Manufactured homes (as opposed to “trailers”) got their start in Florida for retirees. Retirees don’t really need “high-end.”

    I needed a design that three floors with a relatively compact footprint, and there just wasn’t anyone making them.

    Florida retirees don’t really need and certainly don’t want three floors, so you don’t see any manufactured housing that can do that job. But I agree, there is demand out there for configurable manufactured housing. Gentrifying inner cities are changing their zoning to allow “granny flats,” garage apartments, etc. and manufactured housing is a good solution for this market.

    BTW, resident-owned manufactured home communities in Florida for retirees are booming. Not your grandpa’s trailer park.

  56. Saw a blurb on PBS some time ago about a lady protestin the lousy veggies at her local food mart. They were wilted compared to the white people’s grocery offerings. Racism! No mention of the fact that in order to process EBT transactions, the proprieters must offer fresh veggies. Hence the crappy fresh vegetables that nobody buys at convenience stores anyway. They stock em, process EBT sales, throw em out. Repeat.

  57. @Steve Sailer
    @Mike

    HP-12c

    It's fascinating how this ancient calculator still keeps rolling along.

    Replies: @Lot, @Whiskey, @BurplesonAFB

    Mostly due to the overwhelming support it receives from the Reverse-Polish-American community.

  58. @Bliss
    It is one of the duties of the Government to prevent citizens from being ripped off like this. Predatory lenders are criminals and deserve prison sentences.

    Replies: @Mike Sylwester

    Predatory lenders are criminals and deserve prison sentences.

    In order to convict someone, you have to prove that he has violated a law.

    Because the Obama Administration cannot prove such violations, it has to resort to bogus accusations of racial discrimination.

  59. @ben tillman
    @Lot


    People generally get the interest rates they deserve.
     
    Nobody deserves to get ripped off.

    Replies: @ben tillman, @dumpstersquirrel

    “Nobody deserves to get ripped off.”

    You talk like a woman. In a voluntary transaction between two parties, each side deserves whatever it gets, QED. There are times I’ve paid more than I had to for a service, but it was my own impatience and laziness that caused this — I could have done more research, but chose not to; ergo, I got “ripped off.” And I deserved it, 7,000%.

    • Replies: @IBC
    @dumpstersquirrel


    In a voluntary transaction between two parties, each side deserves whatever it gets, QED.

     

    Sure, caveat emptor. But when does "ripping someone off" become exploitation?

    An argument could be made that consumer protection laws protect sellers as well as customers. For example, the same person who eagerly signs a bad contract might also eagerly break a crooked businessman's face when they find out they've been duped and have no legal recourse.
  60. About the mobile homes…

    This isn’t about value, investment, perception, anything like that.

    But there is absolutely no reason why mobile homes, manufactured housing, whatever you want to call it can’t be very, very good from a functional standpoint.

    Some are built better than others, but you really could make them better than stick built houses. From an energy efficiency standpoint, or any other you could care to name.

    Most of them are built kind of cut rate, but our stick built thing is pretty crappy compared to what you potentially could do in a factory, and at a great price.

    Not sure when it is going to happen, but the way we build houses in this country is out of date now. Heck it was out of date twenty years ago maybe. We get better battery powered tools, better nailguns, they change some things, and codes change.

    But a construction guy from 1960 would have no trouble following what is going on a construction site for a modern crackerbox house. Well it wouldn’t be rocket science at any rate, but there is a lot of room for change that has never been adopted for some reason.

  61. I bought a pretty nice used car last year and paid precisely what I considered its reasonable value. Afterward, I was bragging to a buddy who’s an ad man about my hard negotiation tactics and he said, “We’re the sort of customers that dealerships hate, because we actually know what the car’s worth”– “we” meaning white guys. He explained that black guys pay a good deal more than it’s worth “and not because of racism, but because they want to brag about how much they paid.”

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @wonderbread

    Yes, Steve dealt with that phenomenon before. Blacks want to be seen as big spenders.

    White people, by the way, used to be the same way. As in the Vanderbilts, Rockefellers, etc. Now its all about being miserly and cheapskate, er being thifty and smart shopping.

    In the end, you get what you pay for.

    Replies: @BurplesonAFB

  62. “To lure the borrowers, the department said, the dealerships were situated in overwhelmingly African-American neighborhoods.”

    How DARE they!?

  63. @Truth
    @Foreign Expert

    " In the pile of documents I was forced to sign they slipped in some funny kind of extra insurance and I didn’t notice. About a month later I noticed it and managed to get it canceled."

    Or a higher IQ person might not have signed in the first place. Hey, don't shoot the messenger, comrade...

    Replies: @Foreign Expert

    My point was that the dealers use deception and if above average IQ types can be tricked, think of what they get away with, with the other half of the human race.

  64. That reminds me that in both Chicago and Los Angeles, I’ve been discriminated against in Toyota dealerships. I’ve several times been ignored by salesmen who don’t want to deal with an intelligent-looking white guy who no doubt has looked up on the Internet what the dealer’s cost of the car is.

    My old man- himself an ex-mechanic- used to check out used car lots at night, with a flashlight, specifically so that he could get a good look at everything without a salesman there to distract him. If he found something he liked, he’d go back in the morning and just ask for it, entirely skipping the sales pitch.

    In retrospect, I’m a little surprised nobody ever called the cops to report a couple of suspicious-looking prowlers crawling underneath automobiles at 10:45 PM. Evidently, your average busybodies and Nosy-Parkers don’t feel much neighborly protectiveness toward used car dealers.

  65. Holder’s Justice Dept.: Auto Dealers Give Whites Lower Interest Loans Because Used Car Salesmen Are Nice

    How do you fix capitalism such that haggling doesn’t favor the more intelligent, informed, and determined?

    The practice, known as reverse-redlining

    *Facepalm*

    I’ve never financed a car, and I don’t plan to. Way too many nice used cars on the market for that.

    Sure, that meant I frequently had to walk off a purchase

    This is the heart of haggling. You cannot haggle unless you are perfectly willing to walk away. In fact, you should go into a haggle expecting to walk away.

    Now some dealers make serious bank dealing with deadbeats. We got this one dealer where I live who specializes into selling and scamming deadbeat Mexicans and Blacks and it’s made him rich. First off he does his own financing(which looks good but isn’t), two he installs a tracker in each vehicle so he knows where they are at all times. When a buyer has trouble making payments, he calls them in saying the car is due for a free preventative maintenance check, the driver shows up, he escorts him/her into a office, while a employee repossessed the car. When the buyer walks out the car is gone. Then the car is cleaned up and put back on the lot for sale.

    There’s an opportunity there. Find out who is running these scams, and outbid them for the frames. Then sell them the frames at a tidy markup. ‘Course then all they have to do is start bidding on frames they don’t want, leaving you holding the bag.

    If you’re too stupid, you will sit and nod your head while something is explained to you, and you will still do the stupid thing.

    Not only that, but the stupid are also a money pit. Give a stupid person a stipend for groceries, and they’ll spend it on something stupid. Or spend it on groceries, and use the money they used to spend on groceries, on something stupid, same thing.

    Stupid here means economically stupid. I know some perfectly intelligent people who are stupid with money, and refuse to change. Big time lack of discipline, seriousness, impulse control.

    “Nobody deserves to get ripped off.”

    You talk like a woman.

    Bliss is a woman. Why does everyone assume that the SJW with a black hooker name is a guy?

    In a voluntary transaction between two parties, each side deserves whatever it gets, QED.

    So, you don’t think fraud should be a crime?

  66. @dumpstersquirrel
    @ben tillman

    "Nobody deserves to get ripped off."

    You talk like a woman. In a voluntary transaction between two parties, each side deserves whatever it gets, QED. There are times I've paid more than I had to for a service, but it was my own impatience and laziness that caused this -- I could have done more research, but chose not to; ergo, I got "ripped off." And I deserved it, 7,000%.

    Replies: @IBC

    In a voluntary transaction between two parties, each side deserves whatever it gets, QED.

    Sure, caveat emptor. But when does “ripping someone off” become exploitation?

    An argument could be made that consumer protection laws protect sellers as well as customers. For example, the same person who eagerly signs a bad contract might also eagerly break a crooked businessman’s face when they find out they’ve been duped and have no legal recourse.

  67. Retail sales of automobiles should be regulated by the states, not by the Federal Government.

  68. @Twinkie
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi


    Or….any ultra luxury car, like a Bentley, a Rolls, a Ferrari, Lamborghini etc.

    Only a real…is going to have the audacity to haggle over cars with a base price of 250k and up.
     
    One benefit of the internet age is that on transactions like these, I don't have to waste time. Most car dealerships now have internet pricing departments. I just send an e-mail with all the options and the final pricing/tax/fee request, and I select based on the best bid. Sometimes I might have to negotiate a little bit among the 2 or 3 best offers by playing one offer against another, but it's pretty easy.

    Once you let the dealers know that you know about their monthly quotas, manufacturer incentives, etc. and know that they are not dealing with a joker, most of them don't try to waste your time. One dealership where I bought three cars before knows the whole routine with me and just gives me all the specs plus final settlement price when queried.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    And again, its highly unlikely that you’d have to do all that with top 1% of ultra luxury autos. They aren’t trying to hustle and you don’t have to haggle.

    After all, there IS no quota with Rolls Royce, etc. since they only sell about 2k or so per yr total, worldwide. They’re not trying to bust all records in their branch sales. Their commission isn’t really the same as those salesmen who work for Ford, Toyota, etc.

    Either the Saudi’s fifteenth son from his sixth wife, the one who is seventh in line for the royal throne decides to buy a fleet of Rolls and Bentleys that particular week, or decides to wait til after Ramadan is over, a few months later.

    For the top 1% of cars that are within the top 1%, its really not that hard to know who the main buyers are (e.g. Musicians/some entertainers; Saudi/UAE Royalty; a couple international drug dealers; etc).

    Funny, you never see Bill Gates; Mark Zukerberg; Warren Buffet driving around in a Rolls Royce.

    Why?

    It isn’t gauche since that car and other comparable cars have a long established history of selling to elite money as well as royalty around the world. Almost like they’ve given up their privilege of being elite when it comes to the cars they drive.

    Very strange.

    The very group that can well afford a couple of Rolls and they don’t purchase them.

    Strange.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi


    The very group that can well afford a couple of Rolls and they don’t purchase them. Strange.

     

    Not at all strange. If a Rolls is anything, it's visible. Precisely what they don't want.

    Paul Fussell wrote in Class that the Eastern upper crust preferred Buicks; they were just as good but far less showy than Caddys.


    “The automobile, like the all-important domestic façade, is another mechanism for outdoor class display. Or class lack of display we'd have to say, if we focus on the usages of the upper class, who, on the principle of archaism, affect to regard the automobile as very nouveau and underplay it consistently. Class understatement describes the technique: if your money and freedom and carelessness of censure allow you to buy any kind of car, you provide yourself with the meanest and most common to indicate that you're not taking seriously so easily purchasable and thus vulgar a class totem. You have a Chevy, Ford, Plymouth, or Dodge, and in the least interesting style and color. It may be clean, although slightly dirty is best. But it should be boring. The next best thing is to have a "good" car, like a Jaguar or BMW, but to be sure it's old and beat-up. You may not have a Rolls, a Cadillac, or a Mercedes. Especially a Mercedes, a car, Joseph Epstein reports in The American Scholar (Winter 1981-82), which the intelligent young in West Germany regard, quite correctly, as "a sign of vulgarity, a car of the kind owned by Beverly Hills dentists or African cabinet ministers.”
     
    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi


    …Warren Buffet driving around in a Rolls Royce.
     
    Have you ever been to Omaha? Do you realize how ridiculous that would look?

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Twinkie

  69. @wonderbread
    I bought a pretty nice used car last year and paid precisely what I considered its reasonable value. Afterward, I was bragging to a buddy who's an ad man about my hard negotiation tactics and he said, "We're the sort of customers that dealerships hate, because we actually know what the car's worth"-- "we" meaning white guys. He explained that black guys pay a good deal more than it's worth "and not because of racism, but because they want to brag about how much they paid."

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Yes, Steve dealt with that phenomenon before. Blacks want to be seen as big spenders.

    White people, by the way, used to be the same way. As in the Vanderbilts, Rockefellers, etc. Now its all about being miserly and cheapskate, er being thifty and smart shopping.

    In the end, you get what you pay for.

    • Replies: @BurplesonAFB
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    I think we can all agree that Vanderbilts and Rockefellers are characteristic of most white people in the gilded age. Super fair and reasonable generalization. Thanks for your stunning insights.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

  70. @Lot
    Rip-off loans is where banker scumbaggery and IQ denialism profitably intersect.

    Good paternalistic liberals like Senator Warren just want to ban payday loans, which often feature 7,000% interest rates.

    The banks, however, insist the solution is "financial education." Rather than cap interest rates, let's protect the IQ<85 set by forcing schools to try to teach them concepts like present value, compound interest, and amortization.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Bill, @Mike

    Good paternalistic liberals like Senator Warren just want to ban payday loans, which often feature 7,000% interest rates.

    I’d say that sentiment extends a bit beyond paternalistic liberals. But why stop at payday lending? Title Pawn, too. And most credit cards.

    The ostensible defenses of leaving these things legal are just awful. All voluntary transactions are good. Bill, you you think you know better what’s good for some barely functional, IQ 80 dipshit than he does? Bill, why do you hate freedom? Capitalism is good. Etc.

    It’s hard not to suspect hatred of stupid people born of Noah Smith style flashbacks to high school. It really sucked when some letterman laughed out loud, in front of pretty girls and everything, about some geeked-out thing I said one fine day in civics class.

    But, you know, his life today as “Peaked in High School Me” sucks enough. Payday lenders do not need to make it worse, and he doesn’t deserve them making it worse. I should learn to sympathize with him. He has no chance of figuring out anything. Except that his fat wife left him, his daughter is on meth, driving a forklift doesn’t pay the way it used to, and he doesn’t know what to do about it. Maybe joining the Tea Party will help?

    This guy remembers how emasculated those those stupid meanie-heads made him feel:

    “Nobody deserves to get ripped off.”

    You talk like a woman. In a voluntary transaction between two parties, each side deserves whatever it gets, QED.

  71. @Mike
    As usual the government is looking in the wrong place. If you want to find discrimination, you can't look at the loan terms, you must look at portfolio performance/profitability. If my ROI on my "black" loan pool is higher than that of my "white" pool, I may in fact be discriminating. I think competition really drives racial disparity to zero.

    Like Lot, I'm concerned about anyone that is going to be taken advantage of by someone with my skills and background. I think a lot of bad regulation has allowed the current situation to come into being. Back when I was a banker in the early '90's we wouldn't finance payday lenders, we were very choosy about used car dealers and only financed a couple of pawn shops. Financing tote the note lots put another layer of security/repayment between us and the less than credit worthy consumer. Pawn shop loans are non-recourse so they, while having very high interest rates, are not really evil. Really shady guys could not get bank financing. All their stuff had to be done out of personal capital.

    Now we have publicly traded companies with bank financing making the payday loan racket possible on the scale we see today. Just another example of gaming the regulations. In the old days we had guys that were concerned about their reputation in the banking industry. Today, with their ability to hide behind regulation... Not so much.

    Pro tip to the iSteve community: if you see an old guy like me sitting across the table from you with an HP-12c, run. If I'm allowed to sell you a product with no clear market price, and also finance that sale, I can rip you off in one dimension or another.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Lot, @International Jew, @Bill Jones

    if you see an old guy like me sitting across the table from you with an HP-12c, run.

    Be even more wary of us HP-11c users: we know the formulas by heart.

    BTW, there’s a great 11c app for Android. Looks and works just like the real thing, and it’s free. My real 11c finally bit the dust a few years ago, sigh.

  72. @Michelle
    @Lot

    Wrong! Librarians are not nice! They are the epitome of all that is evil! They are all card carrying members of the ACLU. They are nasty, intolerant lefties for the most part and they cater to the public masturbators, men who use women's restrooms, and smelly, violent, homeless people and encourage bad behavior in children and teenagers, even though the majority of them have no children of their own. I work at a library and try to avoid interacting with "public" masturbators, smelly patrons and librarians as much as I possibly can.

    Replies: @Bill, @Art Deco, @JustAnotherGuyWitha1911

    I enjoy your comments about libraries.

  73. @Twinkie
    @Boomstick


    The actual price is hidden in dealer incentives and holdbacks, which are more easily obscured in private dealer/factory agreements.
     
    There are websites that publish these. And then there are auto enthusiast fora where people (including folks who work at the dealerships) discuss these.

    Also, it helps to have an acquaintance whose father owns car dealerships and who explains all the intricacies of car pricing!

    Replies: @map, @Lot, @Bill

    I used to do this, but I don’t see the point any more.

    The distribution of prices paid at car dealerships is bimodal. There is a big mode just a little under sticker—that’s all the fools who have no clue what they are supposed to pay. There is another big mode around dealer cost + $500—that’s all the people who know what they are supposed to pay. Back in the bad old days, the way you signaled to the dealer that you were a member of the low mode was to go through the rigmarole of sitting at the dealer arguing and making them chase you into the parking lot two or three times.

    Why do it now, though? Just go through Consumer Reports car pricing service (which, I guess is subcontracted to TrueCar). That tells the dealer you are not one of the suckers. Maybe you could get an extra hundred or two off by sitting and fighting, but why bother? That’s an unpleasant way to make a couple hundred bucks, no? I suspect it’s what you say, though. It’s just white guy status whoring. I got $50 more off than you did!

    Of course the other problem is the trade-in. Because pricing of used cars is much more customized (i.e. condition-dependent in ways that it is hard for consumers to evaluate) than pricing of new cars, it’s much harder to know what your used car is worth. I’ve been driving my current car for years longer than I anticipated doing so because I walked from multiple places over the trade-in value they were offering.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Bill


    I used to do this, but I don’t see the point any more.
     
    Doesn't take much time on internet/e-mail.

    The distribution of prices paid at car dealerships is bimodal. There is a big mode just a little under sticker—that’s all the fools who have no clue what they are supposed to pay. There is another big mode around dealer cost + $500—that’s all the people who know what they are supposed to pay.
     
    Very true.

    Just go through Consumer Reports car pricing service
     
    My wife tried a similar service offered by our insurance company, USAA, but its buyer chuckled on the phone (when she mentioned the price I negotiated) and told her that she'd better let her husband buy cars from now on and she hasn't doubted me since.

    Maybe you could get an extra hundred or two off by sitting and fighting, but why bother?
     
    Extra couple of hundred buys me a decent bottle of Bordeaux. I am not passing on that when the only thing it takes is a couple of e-mails back and forth to 2 or 3 dealers.

    Of course the other problem is the trade-in.
     
    Absolutely. People get raped on the value of their trade-ins. Not a problem for me since I generally don't trade in cars (my family drives cars to their deaths) and what cars I unloaded I sold to other people.
  74. @Mike Zwick
    I went to a car dealership in Chicago and the salesman came up to me and started speaking Polish. I looked at him like I didn't understand and then he started speaking either Russian or Ukrainian. I still looked puzzled and he started going "you not Polish, what are you Lithuanian? German?" I said I'm American, there are still some of us around!

    Replies: @melo

    There’s a 10% city sales tax in Chicago if you buy from a car dealer. If you live in the city you owe the tax even if you buy the car in the suburbs. This is especially painful knowing who is going to get your money… The only cost effective solution is Craigslist.

  75. prosa123 [AKA "Peter"] says: • Website
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @ben tillman

    Or….any ultra luxury car, like a Bentley, a Rolls, a Ferrari, Lamborghini etc.

    Only a real…is going to have the audacity to haggle over cars with a base price of 250k and up.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @prosa123

    Jalopnik had an amusing article about an owner trying to sell a used (but still extremely expensive) Ferrari. Would-be buyers were insanely picky, which is typical for vehicles like that, demanding full details and receipts for every service ever performed. One of them slashed his offer by thousands of dollars because the owner once had had a tire changed at an ordinary tire shop rather than at a Ferrari dealership.
    Amusingly, Jalopnik calls very expensive cars like a Ferrari or Lamborghini “Point A to Point A cars.” Owners take the cars out of their garages, drive then around for a while, and then return them to the garages. They don’t drive the cars to any actual destinations.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @prosa123

    Uh, and there's a reason for that. They want to be seen driving it around, but they don't want it stolen, ended up in a chop shop, etc. These cars are not intended to be driven around in harsh winter climates either.
    Of course the repairs on these cars tend to be astronomical. But then, these buyers probably are not in the top 1% per se. They're right on the cusp, more in the top 2-3% so while they can afford to purchase the car, they didn't realize just how exorbitant the costs for maintenance, upkeep, etc can add up. Perhaps they thought that that Aston Martin's upkeep would only run them bills along the lines of Toyota Lexus or Beemers, their previous cars that they were more accustomed to driving around.

    Also, it is a bit gauche to drive the Ferrari to MacDonalds. Honestly now. No one wants to look like a total dumbass while driving around in the elite 1% of the top 1%. Yes, from a practical standpoint, where exactly do you drive these cars? Perhaps a brief reading of history. Read up on former ultra luxury car owners (of Bentley, Rolls, Ferrari, etc) and where they drove their cars and how they tended to use them in their daily lives. A little research before buying the car can work wonders, especially on the long term costs.

    Ironically the one city where you could drive these cars around, upscale elite areas of NY, doesn't have the greatest parking facilities and they do have winters which aren't very kind to the body of these cars.

    For all intents and purposes, with notable exceptions, that leaves…..Beverly Hills. Rodeo Drive. Malibu. Bel Air. Perhaps,….Marin County? But Beverly Hills is the ultimate place for Rolls and others. The producers of Columbo had almost a superstitious fetish about including a Rolls Royce model in just about every single episode starting from around '74 and into the reboot '90's series. Just about every single episode had a Rolls Royce driving around near Beverly Hills, etc.

    The point was made. For pure elegance, luxury, timeless eternal quality, you must buy and drive a Rolls Royce.

    I didn't mean to say a "used" ultra luxury. I took for granted the car is brand new, as in right now no one else has ever driven it. Its not very likely that the UAE/Saudi Royals purchase used beaten up Rolls. Come come now. Brand new, no one's every driven it.

    Actually, the one place to take and tool around in these cars: Car shows. Some of them are quite elegant and exclusive. Some also raise money for charities. Perfect SWPL attitude. You can drive around in your ultra luxury car feeling superior to others (which is part of the allure of these cars) while helping to raise money for worth while causes and thus really feeling superior to others.

    Replies: @JSM, @Marty

  76. @Lot
    @Twinkie

    Nice to see some gentiles who take pride in never paying retail when it can be avoided!

    My last two cars, late model used, I did a big search on cars.com, picked out the ones I like best, and sent in about a dozen low-ball offers until I got a bite from a dealer. I was OK paying a bit extra for a dealer used car knowing the paperwork will be quick and ready for me in minutes when I find what i like, and no games of phone tag to visit each private party seller.

    eBay Motors is another good option if you have a very specific desire and don't mind paying $500 to have a car shipped across the country. When I was thinking of getting an El Camino, I noted the ebay prices were a lot cheaper in the midwest than California.

    Replies: @Stan D Mute

    eBay Motors is another good option if you have a very specific desire and don’t mind paying $500 to have a car shipped across the country. When I was thinking of getting an El Camino, I noted the ebay prices were a lot cheaper in the midwest than California.

    Ebay is a crapshoot. Then again, unless you really know cars, dealers, and dealer tricks, used cars are a crapshoot in general. The record services like CarFax are helpful, but by no means foolproof. You could invest in (or pool with friends) a good paint meter that will measure the paint thickness on body panels (be sure it does both aluminum and steel) or just pay for a comprehensive PPI for each car you intend to purchase.

    The regional price differences are real, but mostly at the wholesale level where transportation costs come into play and where the extra week or two in delivery is a big issue for the dealers’ lot financing which is typically 90-day. Once the unit goes onto eBay, that regional or local soft market pricing turns into seller profit as he’s selling into the national average. Your savings is your local sellers’ market versus the national average. If you find a unit that seems like a really smoking hot deal, it may be but you need to very very quickly ascertain whether it’s that or a rip-off and the average buyer just isn’t equipped to do that.

    As much as it pains me to write this, for the average used car buyer of a modern technologically complicated car, Carmax might be your best option with their in-house warranty. Shop them and negotiate hard, then buy their warranty (but never ever buy a third party warranty!). There is a good series of blog posts explaining the whys of this by a former Porsche manager who bought a Range Rover from Carmax. Google Doug Demuro Carmax Range Rover.

  77. @WowJustWow
    But when is the Justice Department going to punish auto insurers for charging men higher rates than women?

    Replies: @Big Bill, @Anonymous Nephew

    The EU have legislated so that (officially) car/auto insurers CAN’T charge men more than women. Nor can they charge men less than women for pension annuities.

    http://ec.europa.eu/justice/newsroom/gender-equality/news/121220_en.htm

    “Gender equality is a fundamental right in the European Union and the Court of Justice made clear that this also applies to insurance pricing”

    They haven’t yet cracked the minor problems of men dying earlier, or men having more auto accidents, but I’m sure they’re working on it.

  78. @prosa123
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Jalopnik had an amusing article about an owner trying to sell a used (but still extremely expensive) Ferrari. Would-be buyers were insanely picky, which is typical for vehicles like that, demanding full details and receipts for every service ever performed. One of them slashed his offer by thousands of dollars because the owner once had had a tire changed at an ordinary tire shop rather than at a Ferrari dealership.
    Amusingly, Jalopnik calls very expensive cars like a Ferrari or Lamborghini "Point A to Point A cars." Owners take the cars out of their garages, drive then around for a while, and then return them to the garages. They don't drive the cars to any actual destinations.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Uh, and there’s a reason for that. They want to be seen driving it around, but they don’t want it stolen, ended up in a chop shop, etc. These cars are not intended to be driven around in harsh winter climates either.
    Of course the repairs on these cars tend to be astronomical. But then, these buyers probably are not in the top 1% per se. They’re right on the cusp, more in the top 2-3% so while they can afford to purchase the car, they didn’t realize just how exorbitant the costs for maintenance, upkeep, etc can add up. Perhaps they thought that that Aston Martin’s upkeep would only run them bills along the lines of Toyota Lexus or Beemers, their previous cars that they were more accustomed to driving around.

    Also, it is a bit gauche to drive the Ferrari to MacDonalds. Honestly now. No one wants to look like a total dumbass while driving around in the elite 1% of the top 1%. Yes, from a practical standpoint, where exactly do you drive these cars? Perhaps a brief reading of history. Read up on former ultra luxury car owners (of Bentley, Rolls, Ferrari, etc) and where they drove their cars and how they tended to use them in their daily lives. A little research before buying the car can work wonders, especially on the long term costs.

    Ironically the one city where you could drive these cars around, upscale elite areas of NY, doesn’t have the greatest parking facilities and they do have winters which aren’t very kind to the body of these cars.

    For all intents and purposes, with notable exceptions, that leaves…..Beverly Hills. Rodeo Drive. Malibu. Bel Air. Perhaps,….Marin County? But Beverly Hills is the ultimate place for Rolls and others. The producers of Columbo had almost a superstitious fetish about including a Rolls Royce model in just about every single episode starting from around ’74 and into the reboot ’90’s series. Just about every single episode had a Rolls Royce driving around near Beverly Hills, etc.

    The point was made. For pure elegance, luxury, timeless eternal quality, you must buy and drive a Rolls Royce.

    I didn’t mean to say a “used” ultra luxury. I took for granted the car is brand new, as in right now no one else has ever driven it. Its not very likely that the UAE/Saudi Royals purchase used beaten up Rolls. Come come now. Brand new, no one’s every driven it.

    Actually, the one place to take and tool around in these cars: Car shows. Some of them are quite elegant and exclusive. Some also raise money for charities. Perfect SWPL attitude. You can drive around in your ultra luxury car feeling superior to others (which is part of the allure of these cars) while helping to raise money for worth while causes and thus really feeling superior to others.

    • Replies: @JSM
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    "Also, it is a bit gauche to drive the Ferrari to MacDonalds. Honestly now. No one wants to look like a total dumbass while driving around in the elite 1% of the top 1%."



    The People Vs. Simpson
    http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20104089,00.html


    "9:10 p.m. Simpson and Kaelin head for a McDonald's in Simpson's Bentley. "

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    , @Marty
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Did you ever see the video for Brad Paisley's "Being a Celebrity"? I thought it was very funny.

  79. Semi-OT: Steve, will the recent shooting of two African-American crossdressers at the gates of the NSA, have a place in WWT and #violenceagainstblackbodies?

    http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bs-md-nsa-shooting-folo-20150331-story.html

    Turning Department of Justice fire hoses on the NSA would be quite the swan song for Holder.

  80. To lure the borrowers, the department said, the dealerships were situated in overwhelmingly African-American neighborhoods.

    Those dastardly racists! Is there no tactic they won’t stoop to?

    Seriously, though: Car salesmen — ewwwww. I know they’re just guys doing a job, but man, I always feel like I have to take a shower after dealing with them.

    I’ve never financed a car, and I don’t plan to. Way too many nice used cars on the market for that.

    Hear, hear. Never owned a new car, probably never will. Cars these days are so incredibly well-made that there’s just no reason for a person of modest means to buy new. Pay cash and buy used. The advances in quality and reliability over the course of my life have been astounding. My old Saturn was a cheap piece of crap, and yet it was still light-years better than the first car I ever owned.

    • Replies: @Paul Mendez
    @Mr. Blank

    Hear, hear. Never owned a new car, probably never will.

    My Daddy done tole me never buy a used car and never marry a divorced woman. Why would you want to take over some other man's problem?

    Replies: @Art Deco

  81. “What exactly is the ACLU up to these days?”

    I’m not sure about today, but I joined the ACLU in 1993 (based on their then-reputation as a sort of leftist-but-objective advocate for the Bill of Rights, albeit generally minus the 2nd Amendment…but then I also joined the NRA in ’93), and as a then-resident of Campbell, California, I received their natonal, statewide, Northern California, and Bay Area newsletters. And all four of those newsletters were almost exclusively devoted to a single issue ie., the maintaining of so-called “affirmative action” programs in both the public & private sectors.

    I swiftly took to throwing those anti-White & anti-male rags in the garbage upon their arrival, and did not renew my membership the following year. The post-Cold War ACLU wasn’t interested in things like freedom of speech, apparently. They were interested in excluding me from university admissions, and general employment. I felt like I’d been duped.

  82. The practice, known as reverse-redlining

    So redlining is bad and reverse-redlining is bad.

    the government authorities created a method that analyzes borrowers’ surnames

    So, Zimmerman would trigger a false negative.

  83. @Big Bill
    @WowJustWow

    The auto insurers are working on a way around challenges based on race, gender and age. They are experimenting with trackers on vehicles that record location, speed, acceleration rates, following distance, time/date of travel and other factors that can be used to determine likelihood of loss.

    The nice thing is that all these factors are non-discriminatory, although (doubtless) highly correlated with race/gender/age.

    Replies: @Wilkey, @E. Rekshun

    The auto insurers are working on a way around challenges based on race, gender and age. They are experimenting with trackers on vehicles that record location, speed, acceleration rates, following distance, time/date of travel and other factors that can be used to determine likelihood of loss.

    My auto insurer, Progressive, offered to monitor my driving habits in my two vehicles by having me self-install a plug-in device under the dash of each vehicle. After about four months, Progressive had me mail the devices back to them in self-addressed, stamped envelopes. I ended up getting a 30% and an 18% discount on the two vehicles.

  84. @Twinkie
    @SPmoore8


    Back when I first started buying cars, with no down payment, no credit rating, and desperate because I was married with small children, I ended up paying a 40% markup from the list price over the course of a loan. Decades later, I end up paying 7% over markup over the course of the loan; and if I don’t get to do it my way, I leave.
     
    My father taught me two lessons about buying cars.

    First, never to borrow money to buy a rapidly depreciating asset. He said "don't borrow money to buy a car; if you have to borrow money to buy a car, then you shouldn't have one."*

    Second, never pay more than $500 above *actual* (not published) dealer cost.

    So, until I was well-off, I bought clean, reliable used cars (Hondas mostly), usually from other owners, not dealers. And even once I became fairly affluent, I never did pay more than $500 above dealer costs. Sure, that meant I frequently had to walk off a purchase, but since I had other, perfectly functioning cars, I was in no hurry. As my mother often said, if ever in doubt, don't buy it, you'll get plenty of chances later to spend money.

    *Of course, my wife has me beat - she comes from a family that was taught not to buy even a *house* on a loan. Her maternal grandparents and parents had no home mortgages, ever. Her grandpa came back from World War II and lived in a rental until he and his wife saved up enough money to buy a modest house (he retired as a senior VP of a large media conglomerate eventually). They don't even borrow money for *appreciating* assets. The lessons of the Depression run strong in her family.

    Replies: @ASF

    I think in general the advice your father gave you is good with respect to not borrowing to buy a car, but if you are able to get favorable loan terms (like 0.99% or less), then effectively the loan is more or less free if you put a substantial down payment down (I consider $1000 over 4-5 years basically free). If you’re intelligent, debt can be used intelligently.

  85. @Mr. Blank

    To lure the borrowers, the department said, the dealerships were situated in overwhelmingly African-American neighborhoods.
     
    Those dastardly racists! Is there no tactic they won't stoop to?

    Seriously, though: Car salesmen — ewwwww. I know they're just guys doing a job, but man, I always feel like I have to take a shower after dealing with them.

    I’ve never financed a car, and I don’t plan to. Way too many nice used cars on the market for that.
     
    Hear, hear. Never owned a new car, probably never will. Cars these days are so incredibly well-made that there's just no reason for a person of modest means to buy new. Pay cash and buy used. The advances in quality and reliability over the course of my life have been astounding. My old Saturn was a cheap piece of crap, and yet it was still light-years better than the first car I ever owned.

    Replies: @Paul Mendez

    Hear, hear. Never owned a new car, probably never will.

    My Daddy done tole me never buy a used car and never marry a divorced woman. Why would you want to take over some other man’s problem?

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Paul Mendez

    1. You're daddy told you wrong. We've done very well with used cars in our house.

    2. You might if he was her problem, not the other way around. The trouble, of course, is in discerning that reliably.

  86. @Boomstick
    @Wilkey

    States love the idea of GPS tracking, since it gives them all sorts of opportunities to tax the bejesus out of drivers. Specifically with congestion pricing for busy roads, at least to start. If they detect you on the 405 during rush hour you'll pay more.

    The automatic traffic tickets for speeding will come later.

    Replies: @Lot, @Kevin O'Keeffe

    “The automatic traffic tickets for speeding will come later.”

    If they’re going to sell me a car that can go more than 65 MPH (or whatever the local maximum limit is), and that car is going to auto-notify the goverment, every single time I exceed that limit, then the obvious implication is that I have been sold a defective vehicle (one that goes faster than it should), and that there would thus need to be a class action lawsuit against the manufacturer, in order to recoup those costs on behalf of all those so fined.

    Not much recourse for auto-reported speed violations in zones below the local maximum limit, however ie., such as going 38 in a 25, or whatnot.

  87. Perhaps there is sanity to what holder/obama are trying to do here.

    In some ways, it is understandable that a high IQ African americans such as holder and Obama need to to protect their much less unintelligent and therefore vulnerable compatriots. Would you not look out for your mentally challenged younger brother if you had one ?

    Perhaps we all need to recognize that large swathes of the American population need to be wards of the state perpetually, to be provided with food, “affordable housing”, healthcare, financial advise and such. They can not be trusted to make important life decisions about such things as loans and home ownership any more than a 1o old is. Is it even fair to expect them too?

    Perhaps if everyone could agree on this, liberals and conservatives alike, the country can come up with a humane, efficient and therefore less costly guardianship system for our challenged fellow citizens. Maybe American needs to bite the bullet on this one..just sayin’

    • Replies: @Stan D Mute
    @Merema


    Perhaps we all need to recognize that large swathes of the American population need to be wards of the state perpetually, to be provided with food, “affordable housing”, healthcare, financial advise and such. They can not be trusted to make important life decisions about such things as loans and home ownership any more than a 1o old is. Is it even fair to expect them too?
     
    I agree COMPLETELY. And in all-caps to signify just how completely!

    Just one thing though - if we can't trust them to make financial decisions and we assume responsibility for feeding them, we definitely can't trust them with creating new humans or training those new humans to function in our society. So, sadly, we are just going to have to sterilize them..
    , @Harold
    @Merema


    Perhaps we all need to recognize that large swathes of the American population need to be wards of the state perpetually, to be provided with food, “affordable housing”, healthcare, financial advise and such. They can not be trusted to make important life decisions about such things as loans and home ownership any more than a 1o old is. Is it even fair to expect them too?
     
    Back in the past some enterprising whites didn’t wait for the state to implement such, but took it upon themselves:

    Freedom is all right, but de [African Americans] was better off befo' surrender, kaze den dey was looked after an' dey didn' get in no trouble fightin' an' killin' like dey do dese days. If a [African American] cut up an' got sassy in slavery times, his Ole Marse give him a good whippin' an' he went way back an' set down an' 'haved hese'f. If he was sick, Marse an' Mistis looked after him, an' if he needed store medicine, it was bought an' give to him; he didn' have to pay nothin'. Dey didn' even have to think 'bout clothes nor nothin' like dat, dey was wove an' made an' give to dem. Maybe everybody's Marse and Mistis wuzn' good as Marse George and Mis' Betsy, but dey was de same as a mammy an' pappy to us [African Americans].—Tempe Herndon Durham
     
    :P
  88. @Lot
    Rip-off loans is where banker scumbaggery and IQ denialism profitably intersect.

    Good paternalistic liberals like Senator Warren just want to ban payday loans, which often feature 7,000% interest rates.

    The banks, however, insist the solution is "financial education." Rather than cap interest rates, let's protect the IQ<85 set by forcing schools to try to teach them concepts like present value, compound interest, and amortization.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Bill, @Mike

    I love how not one person has challenged your your completely made up (and wildly wrong) 7,000% number.
    Most payday lenders are struggling middle class and couldn’t be further from Wall Street if they tried. They lend to people who no one trusts – family and friends included – and the default rates are off the charts.
    Even the concept of APR being applied to a two week loan is somewhat stupid. If you asked a friend to spot you $300.00 no one would think it weird if the friend gave you an extra $50.00 as a “thank you”. When a business does it all of a sudden we decide to stretch out the loan as if it lasts for an entire year and get shocked that the APR is higher than a credit card. In CA it costs $8.00 to borrow $50.00 from a payday lender. So what?!
    The cycle of debt thing is a joke. That $8.00 is trapping you forever?!

    The car dealer thing also falls into a made up scandal territory. Several people have written here that the evil dealers resell cars they repo. What are they supposed to do?

    I think I am the only pro business voice that ever comments here. Instead of yearning for a white utopia why don’t some of you get off your butt and try to run a business. Since everyone on here is an expert in payday lending my suggestion would be to start there. Get back to me when you’ve burned through all the money you’ve managed to scrape together.

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    @Mike

    Several people have written here that the evil dealers resell cars they repo. What are they supposed to do?

    The problem with these types of dealers is that doing the repo is a substantial part of their business. For this business it is a feature not a bug. They are lending to people they know are a missed paycheck or one big unexpected bill from a repo.

    Replies: @Stan D Mute

    , @pseudonymic handle
    @Mike

    It depends on what you consider "pro business. " I thoroughly approve of people who create and innovate, design new and improved products, find ways to streamline manufacturing, etc. I don't find usury particularly edifying, however; but that's just me I guess. Very interesting series of articles about payday loans and who's heavily involved in them over at Occidental Observer payday loan articles.

  89. @dude
    Mr. Corkery and Ms Silver-Greenberg have been writing pieces in the Times about the horrors of subprime auto lending every couple of weeks, it seems, since at least last year.

    I agree with them that people can and do get ripped off, and it can sometimes be a pretty shady business. But they never ever suggest that the borrower shares any responsibility. They just can't come out and say the truth: some people are not very smart or prudent, and need to be protected from themselves. I think arguing for paternalism would be more effective than just bashing capitalism, but whatever.

    The piece I thought was most interesting was this one from last September, on starter interruption devices:

    http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/09/24/miss-a-payment-good-luck-moving-that-car/

    Seems like this fairly new technology could help explain why this market has been booming. But oddly, after the original article, this factor never seems to be mentioned any of their subsequent articles.

    Replies: @jo S'more

    The piece I thought was most interesting was this one from last September, on starter interruption devices:

    http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/09/24/miss-a-payment-good-luck-moving-that-car/

    Seems like this fairly new technology could help explain why this market has been booming. But oddly, after the original article, this factor never seems to be mentioned any of their subsequent articles.

    Would there be disparate impact such that certain protected groups would end up being the ones whose cars wouldn’t start?

  90. @Mike
    @Lot

    I love how not one person has challenged your your completely made up (and wildly wrong) 7,000% number.
    Most payday lenders are struggling middle class and couldn't be further from Wall Street if they tried. They lend to people who no one trusts - family and friends included - and the default rates are off the charts.
    Even the concept of APR being applied to a two week loan is somewhat stupid. If you asked a friend to spot you $300.00 no one would think it weird if the friend gave you an extra $50.00 as a "thank you". When a business does it all of a sudden we decide to stretch out the loan as if it lasts for an entire year and get shocked that the APR is higher than a credit card. In CA it costs $8.00 to borrow $50.00 from a payday lender. So what?!
    The cycle of debt thing is a joke. That $8.00 is trapping you forever?!

    The car dealer thing also falls into a made up scandal territory. Several people have written here that the evil dealers resell cars they repo. What are they supposed to do?

    I think I am the only pro business voice that ever comments here. Instead of yearning for a white utopia why don't some of you get off your butt and try to run a business. Since everyone on here is an expert in payday lending my suggestion would be to start there. Get back to me when you've burned through all the money you've managed to scrape together.

    Replies: @MarkinLA, @pseudonymic handle

    Several people have written here that the evil dealers resell cars they repo. What are they supposed to do?

    The problem with these types of dealers is that doing the repo is a substantial part of their business. For this business it is a feature not a bug. They are lending to people they know are a missed paycheck or one big unexpected bill from a repo.

    • Replies: @Stan D Mute
    @MarkinLA


    The problem with these types of dealers is that doing the repo is a substantial part of their business. For this business it is a feature not a bug. They are lending to people they know are a missed paycheck or one big unexpected bill from a repo.
     
    Why exactly is that a "problem"? Would you rather these folks not have a car? Or require the dealer to wait 90 days before repo-ing the car? They'd simply tack that extra cost onto the price of the car! Do you not understand that this model allows them to sell these sub-sub-prime borrowers more car today for less money? If they pay their debt as contracted they win! If they don't, the dealer recoups his losses and tries again. Do you think the dealer repos the car and its in saleable condition? The guy who doesn't make payments isn't doing maintenance either so there is often major reconditioning required. Dents, scrapes, scratches, minor collision repair, and mechanical repair are all part of that reconditioning cost. And remember the dealer has to do all this and still not exceed a cap on the value of that 15 year old toyota set by the fifty other used car dealers selling the same product.

    Replies: @MarkinLA

  91. @Eric B
    I dated an hispanic girl, first generation, worked a white collar job, worked check to check, lived in an expensive apartment. She got a settlement for a car accident she was in and was awarded $50K.

    Immediately, she was making plans on how to dole out her "winnings" to her immediate family, and to spend it on frivolities. She was in her early twenties. This was in 1995.
    I told her if she put some money aside into the stock market, and pretended she didn't have it for at least ten years, she'd have a nice nest egg for her to retire. She couldn't deal with the idea. I told her to buy 1K shares of Apple when it was at 15, btw.

    Had she done what I advised, since apple has quintupled the stock since then, and added dividends, she would currently have no financial worries, and a money tree of dividends every quarter.

    She doled it all out to her relatives, and on a fancy vacation, blowing the entire amount in a year. She still lives in an apartment, not much savings, living check to check.
    I explained all she needed to know. The what, how, and why of it, over and over and over. She was too stupid to hear a thing. So this "educate them" business isn't all some make it out to be.

    If you're too stupid, you will sit and nod your head while something is explained to you, and you will still do the stupid thing.

    Replies: @Jean Cocteausten

    It’s not stupidity, it’s choosing to live for today instead of plan for the future. I just wish society was more willing to let the bill come due on people like that instead of looking on them as victims of bad luck.

  92. @Paul Mendez
    @Mr. Blank

    Hear, hear. Never owned a new car, probably never will.

    My Daddy done tole me never buy a used car and never marry a divorced woman. Why would you want to take over some other man's problem?

    Replies: @Art Deco

    1. You’re daddy told you wrong. We’ve done very well with used cars in our house.

    2. You might if he was her problem, not the other way around. The trouble, of course, is in discerning that reliably.

  93. @Michelle
    @Lot

    Wrong! Librarians are not nice! They are the epitome of all that is evil! They are all card carrying members of the ACLU. They are nasty, intolerant lefties for the most part and they cater to the public masturbators, men who use women's restrooms, and smelly, violent, homeless people and encourage bad behavior in children and teenagers, even though the majority of them have no children of their own. I work at a library and try to avoid interacting with "public" masturbators, smelly patrons and librarians as much as I possibly can.

    Replies: @Bill, @Art Deco, @JustAnotherGuyWitha1911

    You don’t know any, or understand their systematic shortcomings.

  94. “One reason for the delay, the people said, is that federal authorities have found it complicated to determine which Ally customers are minorities who might have suffered harm. Before sending out the checks, the regulators wanted to make sure that none were sent to white borrowers, the people said. ”

    I’d love to know the details about how the authorities try to figure out if someone is “white” or a “minority”.

  95. 430 lex with convertible top
    The rims keep spinning every time I stop
    I got a superman Benz that I scored from Shaq
    With a old school Caddy with a diamond in the back

    Gator Boots with the pimped out Gucci suit
    Ain’t got no job but I stay sharp
    Can’t pay my rent ’cause all my money’s spent
    But that’s okay ’cause I’m still fly

    Got a quarter tank gas in my new E-class
    But that’s alright ’cause I’m gon’ ride
    Got everything in my moma’s name
    But I’m hood rich, da, dada, dada, da

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Camlost

    "Little do I care for Riches"

    So hung a sign in the study above Commodore Vanderbilt's oceanfront house "The Breakers" in Newport, RI.

    Commodore was pretty well off in his lifetime. Had a few yachts, mansions, etc. Did ok and did not die broke.

    Who says you can't have both: A responsible attitude toward wealth as well as personally owning the outer accoutrements of said wealth? For instance, having a job that puts one in the top 1% and owning a few nice things that are traditionally associated with the top 1%, like,....a Rolls Royce.

    Translation: If one is the king, it is expected that he demonstrate it and behave like it.

    Someone has to buy the car. Why shouldn't it be the right sort of people?

  96. @Merema
    Perhaps there is sanity to what holder/obama are trying to do here.

    In some ways, it is understandable that a high IQ African americans such as holder and Obama need to to protect their much less unintelligent and therefore vulnerable compatriots. Would you not look out for your mentally challenged younger brother if you had one ?

    Perhaps we all need to recognize that large swathes of the American population need to be wards of the state perpetually, to be provided with food, "affordable housing", healthcare, financial advise and such. They can not be trusted to make important life decisions about such things as loans and home ownership any more than a 1o old is. Is it even fair to expect them too?

    Perhaps if everyone could agree on this, liberals and conservatives alike, the country can come up with a humane, efficient and therefore less costly guardianship system for our challenged fellow citizens. Maybe American needs to bite the bullet on this one..just sayin'

    Replies: @Stan D Mute, @Harold

    Perhaps we all need to recognize that large swathes of the American population need to be wards of the state perpetually, to be provided with food, “affordable housing”, healthcare, financial advise and such. They can not be trusted to make important life decisions about such things as loans and home ownership any more than a 1o old is. Is it even fair to expect them too?

    I agree COMPLETELY. And in all-caps to signify just how completely!

    Just one thing though – if we can’t trust them to make financial decisions and we assume responsibility for feeding them, we definitely can’t trust them with creating new humans or training those new humans to function in our society. So, sadly, we are just going to have to sterilize them..

  97. JSM says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @prosa123

    Uh, and there's a reason for that. They want to be seen driving it around, but they don't want it stolen, ended up in a chop shop, etc. These cars are not intended to be driven around in harsh winter climates either.
    Of course the repairs on these cars tend to be astronomical. But then, these buyers probably are not in the top 1% per se. They're right on the cusp, more in the top 2-3% so while they can afford to purchase the car, they didn't realize just how exorbitant the costs for maintenance, upkeep, etc can add up. Perhaps they thought that that Aston Martin's upkeep would only run them bills along the lines of Toyota Lexus or Beemers, their previous cars that they were more accustomed to driving around.

    Also, it is a bit gauche to drive the Ferrari to MacDonalds. Honestly now. No one wants to look like a total dumbass while driving around in the elite 1% of the top 1%. Yes, from a practical standpoint, where exactly do you drive these cars? Perhaps a brief reading of history. Read up on former ultra luxury car owners (of Bentley, Rolls, Ferrari, etc) and where they drove their cars and how they tended to use them in their daily lives. A little research before buying the car can work wonders, especially on the long term costs.

    Ironically the one city where you could drive these cars around, upscale elite areas of NY, doesn't have the greatest parking facilities and they do have winters which aren't very kind to the body of these cars.

    For all intents and purposes, with notable exceptions, that leaves…..Beverly Hills. Rodeo Drive. Malibu. Bel Air. Perhaps,….Marin County? But Beverly Hills is the ultimate place for Rolls and others. The producers of Columbo had almost a superstitious fetish about including a Rolls Royce model in just about every single episode starting from around '74 and into the reboot '90's series. Just about every single episode had a Rolls Royce driving around near Beverly Hills, etc.

    The point was made. For pure elegance, luxury, timeless eternal quality, you must buy and drive a Rolls Royce.

    I didn't mean to say a "used" ultra luxury. I took for granted the car is brand new, as in right now no one else has ever driven it. Its not very likely that the UAE/Saudi Royals purchase used beaten up Rolls. Come come now. Brand new, no one's every driven it.

    Actually, the one place to take and tool around in these cars: Car shows. Some of them are quite elegant and exclusive. Some also raise money for charities. Perfect SWPL attitude. You can drive around in your ultra luxury car feeling superior to others (which is part of the allure of these cars) while helping to raise money for worth while causes and thus really feeling superior to others.

    Replies: @JSM, @Marty

    “Also, it is a bit gauche to drive the Ferrari to MacDonalds. Honestly now. No one wants to look like a total dumbass while driving around in the elite 1% of the top 1%.”

    The People Vs. Simpson
    http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20104089,00.html

    “9:10 p.m. Simpson and Kaelin head for a McDonald’s in Simpson’s Bentley. ”

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @JSM

    Not the best example to give, was it now?

    Totally unlikely that Simpson has that car now.

    Replies: @JSM

  98. @MarkinLA
    @Mike

    Several people have written here that the evil dealers resell cars they repo. What are they supposed to do?

    The problem with these types of dealers is that doing the repo is a substantial part of their business. For this business it is a feature not a bug. They are lending to people they know are a missed paycheck or one big unexpected bill from a repo.

    Replies: @Stan D Mute

    The problem with these types of dealers is that doing the repo is a substantial part of their business. For this business it is a feature not a bug. They are lending to people they know are a missed paycheck or one big unexpected bill from a repo.

    Why exactly is that a “problem”? Would you rather these folks not have a car? Or require the dealer to wait 90 days before repo-ing the car? They’d simply tack that extra cost onto the price of the car! Do you not understand that this model allows them to sell these sub-sub-prime borrowers more car today for less money? If they pay their debt as contracted they win! If they don’t, the dealer recoups his losses and tries again. Do you think the dealer repos the car and its in saleable condition? The guy who doesn’t make payments isn’t doing maintenance either so there is often major reconditioning required. Dents, scrapes, scratches, minor collision repair, and mechanical repair are all part of that reconditioning cost. And remember the dealer has to do all this and still not exceed a cap on the value of that 15 year old toyota set by the fifty other used car dealers selling the same product.

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    @Stan D Mute

    Sorry but the whole business is sleazy. It would be better if it didn't exist at all. Like I said, save your money and buy that beater at the same auction where these guys get those cars.

    Replies: @Mike

  99. @Michelle
    @Lot

    Wrong! Librarians are not nice! They are the epitome of all that is evil! They are all card carrying members of the ACLU. They are nasty, intolerant lefties for the most part and they cater to the public masturbators, men who use women's restrooms, and smelly, violent, homeless people and encourage bad behavior in children and teenagers, even though the majority of them have no children of their own. I work at a library and try to avoid interacting with "public" masturbators, smelly patrons and librarians as much as I possibly can.

    Replies: @Bill, @Art Deco, @JustAnotherGuyWitha1911

    In the more things change category – I was a page in a library back in the day – late 80’s. I would shelve everything real quick and wait till I got to the 900’s and then read history books until the buzzer rang. The buzzer meant a request from the librarians F.O.B. to pull some magazines that were, of course, never where they were supposed to be.

    I was dressed down by the queer running the desk as not being cut out for being a page? Really? Despite the hard time my family would give me, being treated like shit by some geriatric homosexual was pretty disheartening. Now, I know that chicks sometimes get a hard time time in the iSteveO’sphere but the head circulation chick , a crusty old wench, was, like, “screw him. We’re gonna have a talk.”

    He left me alone after that.

    Jerry the Polish maintenance guy was always throwing out fornicating teenagers from the stairwell that let from the Children’s dept. to the main floor.

    Cornrell – a middle aged black guy kept the kids alles in ordung.

    Ken – who musta been 90 told me a lesson he learned in the steel factories of PA back in the day – always carry something in your hand.

    Once – one librarian hit on a sixteen years old coworker. In my lawyer years, he showed up at the office, can’t remember exactly why, but it was some pervy shit he was into.

    Alex – a fellow page – wanted to play Woody Guthry as punk. Wilco stole his idea. He ended up as a pediatrician.

    I miss the world that was. I truly do.

    Looking back,
    so far away now
    it all seems so close
    but we’re all living on borrowed time
    and dancing with yesterday’s ghost

    ArtDeco – you are f*ing tool.

    Chick who wrote about being a librarian. I ain’t a white knighter. Chances are you’d walk over my dead body in the street. So be it. But, can’t help it, I got a thing for library girls

    1911 – out.

  100. @Merema
    Perhaps there is sanity to what holder/obama are trying to do here.

    In some ways, it is understandable that a high IQ African americans such as holder and Obama need to to protect their much less unintelligent and therefore vulnerable compatriots. Would you not look out for your mentally challenged younger brother if you had one ?

    Perhaps we all need to recognize that large swathes of the American population need to be wards of the state perpetually, to be provided with food, "affordable housing", healthcare, financial advise and such. They can not be trusted to make important life decisions about such things as loans and home ownership any more than a 1o old is. Is it even fair to expect them too?

    Perhaps if everyone could agree on this, liberals and conservatives alike, the country can come up with a humane, efficient and therefore less costly guardianship system for our challenged fellow citizens. Maybe American needs to bite the bullet on this one..just sayin'

    Replies: @Stan D Mute, @Harold

    Perhaps we all need to recognize that large swathes of the American population need to be wards of the state perpetually, to be provided with food, “affordable housing”, healthcare, financial advise and such. They can not be trusted to make important life decisions about such things as loans and home ownership any more than a 1o old is. Is it even fair to expect them too?

    Back in the past some enterprising whites didn’t wait for the state to implement such, but took it upon themselves:

    Freedom is all right, but de [African Americans] was better off befo’ surrender, kaze den dey was looked after an’ dey didn’ get in no trouble fightin’ an’ killin’ like dey do dese days. If a [African American] cut up an’ got sassy in slavery times, his Ole Marse give him a good whippin’ an’ he went way back an’ set down an’ ‘haved hese’f. If he was sick, Marse an’ Mistis looked after him, an’ if he needed store medicine, it was bought an’ give to him; he didn’ have to pay nothin’. Dey didn’ even have to think ’bout clothes nor nothin’ like dat, dey was wove an’ made an’ give to dem. Maybe everybody’s Marse and Mistis wuzn’ good as Marse George and Mis’ Betsy, but dey was de same as a mammy an’ pappy to us [African Americans].—Tempe Herndon Durham

    😛

  101. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Twinkie

    And again, its highly unlikely that you'd have to do all that with top 1% of ultra luxury autos. They aren't trying to hustle and you don't have to haggle.

    After all, there IS no quota with Rolls Royce, etc. since they only sell about 2k or so per yr total, worldwide. They're not trying to bust all records in their branch sales. Their commission isn't really the same as those salesmen who work for Ford, Toyota, etc.

    Either the Saudi's fifteenth son from his sixth wife, the one who is seventh in line for the royal throne decides to buy a fleet of Rolls and Bentleys that particular week, or decides to wait til after Ramadan is over, a few months later.

    For the top 1% of cars that are within the top 1%, its really not that hard to know who the main buyers are (e.g. Musicians/some entertainers; Saudi/UAE Royalty; a couple international drug dealers; etc).

    Funny, you never see Bill Gates; Mark Zukerberg; Warren Buffet driving around in a Rolls Royce.

    Why?

    It isn't gauche since that car and other comparable cars have a long established history of selling to elite money as well as royalty around the world. Almost like they've given up their privilege of being elite when it comes to the cars they drive.

    Very strange.

    The very group that can well afford a couple of Rolls and they don't purchase them.

    Strange.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Reg Cæsar

    The very group that can well afford a couple of Rolls and they don’t purchase them. Strange.

    Not at all strange. If a Rolls is anything, it’s visible. Precisely what they don’t want.

    Paul Fussell wrote in Class that the Eastern upper crust preferred Buicks; they were just as good but far less showy than Caddys.

    “The automobile, like the all-important domestic façade, is another mechanism for outdoor class display. Or class lack of display we’d have to say, if we focus on the usages of the upper class, who, on the principle of archaism, affect to regard the automobile as very nouveau and underplay it consistently. Class understatement describes the technique: if your money and freedom and carelessness of censure allow you to buy any kind of car, you provide yourself with the meanest and most common to indicate that you’re not taking seriously so easily purchasable and thus vulgar a class totem. You have a Chevy, Ford, Plymouth, or Dodge, and in the least interesting style and color. It may be clean, although slightly dirty is best. But it should be boring. The next best thing is to have a “good” car, like a Jaguar or BMW, but to be sure it’s old and beat-up. You may not have a Rolls, a Cadillac, or a Mercedes. Especially a Mercedes, a car, Joseph Epstein reports in The American Scholar (Winter 1981-82), which the intelligent young in West Germany regard, quite correctly, as “a sign of vulgarity, a car of the kind owned by Beverly Hills dentists or African cabinet ministers.”

  102. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Twinkie

    And again, its highly unlikely that you'd have to do all that with top 1% of ultra luxury autos. They aren't trying to hustle and you don't have to haggle.

    After all, there IS no quota with Rolls Royce, etc. since they only sell about 2k or so per yr total, worldwide. They're not trying to bust all records in their branch sales. Their commission isn't really the same as those salesmen who work for Ford, Toyota, etc.

    Either the Saudi's fifteenth son from his sixth wife, the one who is seventh in line for the royal throne decides to buy a fleet of Rolls and Bentleys that particular week, or decides to wait til after Ramadan is over, a few months later.

    For the top 1% of cars that are within the top 1%, its really not that hard to know who the main buyers are (e.g. Musicians/some entertainers; Saudi/UAE Royalty; a couple international drug dealers; etc).

    Funny, you never see Bill Gates; Mark Zukerberg; Warren Buffet driving around in a Rolls Royce.

    Why?

    It isn't gauche since that car and other comparable cars have a long established history of selling to elite money as well as royalty around the world. Almost like they've given up their privilege of being elite when it comes to the cars they drive.

    Very strange.

    The very group that can well afford a couple of Rolls and they don't purchase them.

    Strange.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Reg Cæsar

    …Warren Buffet driving around in a Rolls Royce.

    Have you ever been to Omaha? Do you realize how ridiculous that would look?

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Reg Cæsar

    Uh, yes, about as ridiculous that Warren Buffett still lives in Omaha. Granted, he most likely gets a few tax breaks but still. Of course, he probably does have a NY or Chi or SF or LA office so perhaps in those areas he would drive around in a nicer car.

    Bill Gates does not live in Omaha and has his own island area within Seattle. And Seattle does have a few ultra luxury car dealerships etc. Per Charles Murray's Losing Ground, Seattle area does contain a few clusters of Super Zip Codes.

    Mark Zuckerberg lives in Silicon Valley does he not (another one of Murray's Super Zip clusters) and he recently purchased 500k acres in HI.

    If he went all out to purchase that amount of land in HI, the least he can do is drive around in a suitable car that would tend to match his bank account.

    (e.g. A Rolls Royce. Or a fleet of them).

    Replies: @Twinkie

    , @Twinkie
    @Reg Cæsar


    Have you ever been to Omaha?
     
    Ever freakin' time I visit my in-laws, my mother-in-law insists that my wife go shopping with her at Borsheim's in Omaha (which is owned by Buffett or one of his companies).

    I am so sick of that city, because of it. Sorry, Omaha, I know it's not your fault.

  103. @Stan D Mute
    @MarkinLA


    The problem with these types of dealers is that doing the repo is a substantial part of their business. For this business it is a feature not a bug. They are lending to people they know are a missed paycheck or one big unexpected bill from a repo.
     
    Why exactly is that a "problem"? Would you rather these folks not have a car? Or require the dealer to wait 90 days before repo-ing the car? They'd simply tack that extra cost onto the price of the car! Do you not understand that this model allows them to sell these sub-sub-prime borrowers more car today for less money? If they pay their debt as contracted they win! If they don't, the dealer recoups his losses and tries again. Do you think the dealer repos the car and its in saleable condition? The guy who doesn't make payments isn't doing maintenance either so there is often major reconditioning required. Dents, scrapes, scratches, minor collision repair, and mechanical repair are all part of that reconditioning cost. And remember the dealer has to do all this and still not exceed a cap on the value of that 15 year old toyota set by the fifty other used car dealers selling the same product.

    Replies: @MarkinLA

    Sorry but the whole business is sleazy. It would be better if it didn’t exist at all. Like I said, save your money and buy that beater at the same auction where these guys get those cars.

    • Replies: @Mike
    @MarkinLA

    Your lack of knowledge is showing. You are implying that you save up and buy your vehicles where dealers buy their cars. Car auctions in LA are dealer only. OPG auctions are open to the public but legal dealers are very unlikely to buy a car there.

    People also do not have the ability or desire to save and pay cash for cars. Odds are very strong that this includes you.

    Your assertion that picking up cars is a feature of these businesses is about twenty years out of date. Nowadays people with bad credit can walk into shiny dealerships with $500 and a paystub (fake or real) and walk out with a very nice car. Why are they going to put thousands of dollars - which they don't have - down on a beater?

  104. @Reg Cæsar
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi


    …Warren Buffet driving around in a Rolls Royce.
     
    Have you ever been to Omaha? Do you realize how ridiculous that would look?

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Twinkie

    Uh, yes, about as ridiculous that Warren Buffett still lives in Omaha. Granted, he most likely gets a few tax breaks but still. Of course, he probably does have a NY or Chi or SF or LA office so perhaps in those areas he would drive around in a nicer car.

    Bill Gates does not live in Omaha and has his own island area within Seattle. And Seattle does have a few ultra luxury car dealerships etc. Per Charles Murray’s Losing Ground, Seattle area does contain a few clusters of Super Zip Codes.

    Mark Zuckerberg lives in Silicon Valley does he not (another one of Murray’s Super Zip clusters) and he recently purchased 500k acres in HI.

    If he went all out to purchase that amount of land in HI, the least he can do is drive around in a suitable car that would tend to match his bank account.

    (e.g. A Rolls Royce. Or a fleet of them).

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi


    a few clusters of Super Zip Codes
     
    Seattle area has *a lot* of Murray's super zip codes.

    I happen to live part of the year in super zip code central, a larger region that likely contains the greatest concentration of super zip codes in the country (yes, it is *nominally* in the South or what I call the "Yankee-occupied South"). The thing about super zip codes is that most are upper middle (professional) class residential areas with widespread affluence, not the land of the super rich walled off from the masses.
  105. @JSM
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    "Also, it is a bit gauche to drive the Ferrari to MacDonalds. Honestly now. No one wants to look like a total dumbass while driving around in the elite 1% of the top 1%."



    The People Vs. Simpson
    http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20104089,00.html


    "9:10 p.m. Simpson and Kaelin head for a McDonald's in Simpson's Bentley. "

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Not the best example to give, was it now?

    Totally unlikely that Simpson has that car now.

    • Replies: @JSM
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Sorry. Was just having fun with the "driving the Bentley to McDonalds" thing. OJ is low-class enough to buy a fine automobile and then drive it to McDonalds...

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

  106. @Camlost

    430 lex with convertible top
    The rims keep spinning every time I stop
    I got a superman Benz that I scored from Shaq
    With a old school Caddy with a diamond in the back

    Gator Boots with the pimped out Gucci suit
    Ain't got no job but I stay sharp
    Can't pay my rent 'cause all my money's spent
    But that's okay 'cause I'm still fly

    Got a quarter tank gas in my new E-class
    But that's alright 'cause I'm gon' ride
    Got everything in my moma's name
    But I'm hood rich, da, dada, dada, da

     

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    “Little do I care for Riches”

    So hung a sign in the study above Commodore Vanderbilt’s oceanfront house “The Breakers” in Newport, RI.

    Commodore was pretty well off in his lifetime. Had a few yachts, mansions, etc. Did ok and did not die broke.

    Who says you can’t have both: A responsible attitude toward wealth as well as personally owning the outer accoutrements of said wealth? For instance, having a job that puts one in the top 1% and owning a few nice things that are traditionally associated with the top 1%, like,….a Rolls Royce.

    Translation: If one is the king, it is expected that he demonstrate it and behave like it.

    Someone has to buy the car. Why shouldn’t it be the right sort of people?

  107. @map
    @Twinkie

    "There are websites that publish these. And then there are auto enthusiast fora where people (including folks who work at the dealerships) discuss these."

    Which websites publish these?

    Replies: @Twinkie

    Which websites publish these?

    Start here: http://www.edmunds.com/car-incentives/

    And exercise your Google-fu for more. The really juicy information is given out buy car enthusiasts who also happen to be dealership employees on auto brand forums.

    • Replies: @Bill Jones
    @Twinkie

    Under no circumstances should you exercise your Google
    See:
    https://medium.com/@DanSanchezV/don-t-see-evil-148ae18bc9fe

    Don't do business with willing collaborators of the totalitarian state.

    Use
    https://duckduckgo.com/
    or
    https://www.ixquick.com/

    Replies: @Twinkie

  108. @Bill
    @Twinkie

    I used to do this, but I don't see the point any more.

    The distribution of prices paid at car dealerships is bimodal. There is a big mode just a little under sticker---that's all the fools who have no clue what they are supposed to pay. There is another big mode around dealer cost + $500---that's all the people who know what they are supposed to pay. Back in the bad old days, the way you signaled to the dealer that you were a member of the low mode was to go through the rigmarole of sitting at the dealer arguing and making them chase you into the parking lot two or three times.

    Why do it now, though? Just go through Consumer Reports car pricing service (which, I guess is subcontracted to TrueCar). That tells the dealer you are not one of the suckers. Maybe you could get an extra hundred or two off by sitting and fighting, but why bother? That's an unpleasant way to make a couple hundred bucks, no? I suspect it's what you say, though. It's just white guy status whoring. I got $50 more off than you did!

    Of course the other problem is the trade-in. Because pricing of used cars is much more customized (i.e. condition-dependent in ways that it is hard for consumers to evaluate) than pricing of new cars, it's much harder to know what your used car is worth. I've been driving my current car for years longer than I anticipated doing so because I walked from multiple places over the trade-in value they were offering.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    I used to do this, but I don’t see the point any more.

    Doesn’t take much time on internet/e-mail.

    The distribution of prices paid at car dealerships is bimodal. There is a big mode just a little under sticker—that’s all the fools who have no clue what they are supposed to pay. There is another big mode around dealer cost + $500—that’s all the people who know what they are supposed to pay.

    Very true.

    Just go through Consumer Reports car pricing service

    My wife tried a similar service offered by our insurance company, USAA, but its buyer chuckled on the phone (when she mentioned the price I negotiated) and told her that she’d better let her husband buy cars from now on and she hasn’t doubted me since.

    Maybe you could get an extra hundred or two off by sitting and fighting, but why bother?

    Extra couple of hundred buys me a decent bottle of Bordeaux. I am not passing on that when the only thing it takes is a couple of e-mails back and forth to 2 or 3 dealers.

    Of course the other problem is the trade-in.

    Absolutely. People get raped on the value of their trade-ins. Not a problem for me since I generally don’t trade in cars (my family drives cars to their deaths) and what cars I unloaded I sold to other people.

  109. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @wonderbread

    Yes, Steve dealt with that phenomenon before. Blacks want to be seen as big spenders.

    White people, by the way, used to be the same way. As in the Vanderbilts, Rockefellers, etc. Now its all about being miserly and cheapskate, er being thifty and smart shopping.

    In the end, you get what you pay for.

    Replies: @BurplesonAFB

    I think we can all agree that Vanderbilts and Rockefellers are characteristic of most white people in the gilded age. Super fair and reasonable generalization. Thanks for your stunning insights.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @BurplesonAFB

    Oh, you're welcome. Any time. After all, the Rockefellers, Fords, Vanderbilts, Morgans, Carnegies, etc. also contributed to putting millions of Americans to work, raising the living standard of working men and women overall, as well as contributing to the arts, free libraries, as well as hospitals. Many of the foundations that they established would help take the lead in paving the way for cancer research, heart bypass surgery, and other crucial lifesaving procedures that have benefitted millions of Americans now unto this very day.

    Of course the overall point was, those who could afford to purchase the ultra luxury vehicles (among several other things of that era) could, did, and didn't feel the need to go all ethnomasochistic and apologize for having purchased the luxury vehicle much less actually owning them.

    At its best, the ultra luxury cars are designed and created specifically for the top 1% of US in wealth so they should never feel any shame for owning them in the first place. They're the specific demographic that ought to be driving them.

    But anytime, glad to do it. Such insights are indeed key and crucial in order to paint the full understanding of the Great Magnates of 19th/early 20th Cent. US History.

  110. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @prosa123

    Uh, and there's a reason for that. They want to be seen driving it around, but they don't want it stolen, ended up in a chop shop, etc. These cars are not intended to be driven around in harsh winter climates either.
    Of course the repairs on these cars tend to be astronomical. But then, these buyers probably are not in the top 1% per se. They're right on the cusp, more in the top 2-3% so while they can afford to purchase the car, they didn't realize just how exorbitant the costs for maintenance, upkeep, etc can add up. Perhaps they thought that that Aston Martin's upkeep would only run them bills along the lines of Toyota Lexus or Beemers, their previous cars that they were more accustomed to driving around.

    Also, it is a bit gauche to drive the Ferrari to MacDonalds. Honestly now. No one wants to look like a total dumbass while driving around in the elite 1% of the top 1%. Yes, from a practical standpoint, where exactly do you drive these cars? Perhaps a brief reading of history. Read up on former ultra luxury car owners (of Bentley, Rolls, Ferrari, etc) and where they drove their cars and how they tended to use them in their daily lives. A little research before buying the car can work wonders, especially on the long term costs.

    Ironically the one city where you could drive these cars around, upscale elite areas of NY, doesn't have the greatest parking facilities and they do have winters which aren't very kind to the body of these cars.

    For all intents and purposes, with notable exceptions, that leaves…..Beverly Hills. Rodeo Drive. Malibu. Bel Air. Perhaps,….Marin County? But Beverly Hills is the ultimate place for Rolls and others. The producers of Columbo had almost a superstitious fetish about including a Rolls Royce model in just about every single episode starting from around '74 and into the reboot '90's series. Just about every single episode had a Rolls Royce driving around near Beverly Hills, etc.

    The point was made. For pure elegance, luxury, timeless eternal quality, you must buy and drive a Rolls Royce.

    I didn't mean to say a "used" ultra luxury. I took for granted the car is brand new, as in right now no one else has ever driven it. Its not very likely that the UAE/Saudi Royals purchase used beaten up Rolls. Come come now. Brand new, no one's every driven it.

    Actually, the one place to take and tool around in these cars: Car shows. Some of them are quite elegant and exclusive. Some also raise money for charities. Perfect SWPL attitude. You can drive around in your ultra luxury car feeling superior to others (which is part of the allure of these cars) while helping to raise money for worth while causes and thus really feeling superior to others.

    Replies: @JSM, @Marty

    Did you ever see the video for Brad Paisley’s “Being a Celebrity”? I thought it was very funny.

  111. @Mike
    @Lot

    I love how not one person has challenged your your completely made up (and wildly wrong) 7,000% number.
    Most payday lenders are struggling middle class and couldn't be further from Wall Street if they tried. They lend to people who no one trusts - family and friends included - and the default rates are off the charts.
    Even the concept of APR being applied to a two week loan is somewhat stupid. If you asked a friend to spot you $300.00 no one would think it weird if the friend gave you an extra $50.00 as a "thank you". When a business does it all of a sudden we decide to stretch out the loan as if it lasts for an entire year and get shocked that the APR is higher than a credit card. In CA it costs $8.00 to borrow $50.00 from a payday lender. So what?!
    The cycle of debt thing is a joke. That $8.00 is trapping you forever?!

    The car dealer thing also falls into a made up scandal territory. Several people have written here that the evil dealers resell cars they repo. What are they supposed to do?

    I think I am the only pro business voice that ever comments here. Instead of yearning for a white utopia why don't some of you get off your butt and try to run a business. Since everyone on here is an expert in payday lending my suggestion would be to start there. Get back to me when you've burned through all the money you've managed to scrape together.

    Replies: @MarkinLA, @pseudonymic handle

    It depends on what you consider “pro business. ” I thoroughly approve of people who create and innovate, design new and improved products, find ways to streamline manufacturing, etc. I don’t find usury particularly edifying, however; but that’s just me I guess. Very interesting series of articles about payday loans and who’s heavily involved in them over at Occidental Observer payday loan articles.

  112. In one of Studs Terkel’s old books there was a car dealer who said he would ignore any customer with a pipe because it was the sign of a man who thought he was a genius. What affectation of clothing would be the equivalent of the professorial pipe now?

    There was a thing a few years ago where someone in UK government said most people could save hundreds of quid on their power bills by shopping around. But there were complaints it was deliberately confusing so they ruled that the power companies had to make it obvious which was the best deal Result: all the good deals were immediately withdrawn; the good deals are paid for by the idiot customers. I suppose the blacks who are smart enough to shop around will not be able to get a good deal either now. And the dealerships in black areas will all close of course.

  113. @Mike
    As usual the government is looking in the wrong place. If you want to find discrimination, you can't look at the loan terms, you must look at portfolio performance/profitability. If my ROI on my "black" loan pool is higher than that of my "white" pool, I may in fact be discriminating. I think competition really drives racial disparity to zero.

    Like Lot, I'm concerned about anyone that is going to be taken advantage of by someone with my skills and background. I think a lot of bad regulation has allowed the current situation to come into being. Back when I was a banker in the early '90's we wouldn't finance payday lenders, we were very choosy about used car dealers and only financed a couple of pawn shops. Financing tote the note lots put another layer of security/repayment between us and the less than credit worthy consumer. Pawn shop loans are non-recourse so they, while having very high interest rates, are not really evil. Really shady guys could not get bank financing. All their stuff had to be done out of personal capital.

    Now we have publicly traded companies with bank financing making the payday loan racket possible on the scale we see today. Just another example of gaming the regulations. In the old days we had guys that were concerned about their reputation in the banking industry. Today, with their ability to hide behind regulation... Not so much.

    Pro tip to the iSteve community: if you see an old guy like me sitting across the table from you with an HP-12c, run. If I'm allowed to sell you a product with no clear market price, and also finance that sale, I can rip you off in one dimension or another.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Lot, @International Jew, @Bill Jones

    HP12-c
    I’ve got two.

    As for discrimination an analysis of mortgage defaults 10 years ago showed that blacks defaulted at higher rates than whites who were paying the same interest rates.
    i.e. Blacks were preferentially treated.

  114. @Twinkie
    @map


    Which websites publish these?
     
    Start here: http://www.edmunds.com/car-incentives/

    And exercise your Google-fu for more. The really juicy information is given out buy car enthusiasts who also happen to be dealership employees on auto brand forums.

    Replies: @Bill Jones

    Under no circumstances should you exercise your Google
    See:
    https://medium.com/@DanSanchezV/don-t-see-evil-148ae18bc9fe

    Don’t do business with willing collaborators of the totalitarian state.

    Use
    https://duckduckgo.com/
    or
    https://www.ixquick.com/

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Bill Jones


    Under no circumstances should you exercise your Google
     
    Point very well taken, sir!

    What search engine do you use as the least evil of the bunch?

    Replies: @Twinkie

  115. @BurplesonAFB
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    I think we can all agree that Vanderbilts and Rockefellers are characteristic of most white people in the gilded age. Super fair and reasonable generalization. Thanks for your stunning insights.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Oh, you’re welcome. Any time. After all, the Rockefellers, Fords, Vanderbilts, Morgans, Carnegies, etc. also contributed to putting millions of Americans to work, raising the living standard of working men and women overall, as well as contributing to the arts, free libraries, as well as hospitals. Many of the foundations that they established would help take the lead in paving the way for cancer research, heart bypass surgery, and other crucial lifesaving procedures that have benefitted millions of Americans now unto this very day.

    Of course the overall point was, those who could afford to purchase the ultra luxury vehicles (among several other things of that era) could, did, and didn’t feel the need to go all ethnomasochistic and apologize for having purchased the luxury vehicle much less actually owning them.

    At its best, the ultra luxury cars are designed and created specifically for the top 1% of US in wealth so they should never feel any shame for owning them in the first place. They’re the specific demographic that ought to be driving them.

    But anytime, glad to do it. Such insights are indeed key and crucial in order to paint the full understanding of the Great Magnates of 19th/early 20th Cent. US History.

  116. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @JSM

    Not the best example to give, was it now?

    Totally unlikely that Simpson has that car now.

    Replies: @JSM

    Sorry. Was just having fun with the “driving the Bentley to McDonalds” thing. OJ is low-class enough to buy a fine automobile and then drive it to McDonalds…

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @JSM

    Actually, was just watching an old rerun of a a classic NFL game broadcast: 1.6.80, the AFC Title game between Steelers and Oilers where Pgh wins 27-13. It's the one with the famous Renfro TD that never was. Although, future hall of famer Earl Campbell was held to just 15yrds rushing on 17 carries so its really doubtful that the Steelers still wouldn't have won the game, because, they would have won anyway. Pure and simple.

    Anyway, included with the broadcast are the original ads as well. Lo and behold, one of the ads is a young smiling OJ for Hertz. Simpson had just retired from the NFL and was doing major ads during NFL playoffs.

    MSM, big business etc really invested a lot in the Juice, just didn't realize how far back it went. This is pre-Nordberg. Pre, pre-Nordberg from Naked Gun Series.

    So, the Juice did have the bucks to purchase the Bentley at one time. Certainly made out a lot better than Walter Payton or even Jim Brown after they announced their retirements.

    Hope that Bentley found a wise sensible buyer.

  117. @JSM
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Sorry. Was just having fun with the "driving the Bentley to McDonalds" thing. OJ is low-class enough to buy a fine automobile and then drive it to McDonalds...

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Actually, was just watching an old rerun of a a classic NFL game broadcast: 1.6.80, the AFC Title game between Steelers and Oilers where Pgh wins 27-13. It’s the one with the famous Renfro TD that never was. Although, future hall of famer Earl Campbell was held to just 15yrds rushing on 17 carries so its really doubtful that the Steelers still wouldn’t have won the game, because, they would have won anyway. Pure and simple.

    Anyway, included with the broadcast are the original ads as well. Lo and behold, one of the ads is a young smiling OJ for Hertz. Simpson had just retired from the NFL and was doing major ads during NFL playoffs.

    MSM, big business etc really invested a lot in the Juice, just didn’t realize how far back it went. This is pre-Nordberg. Pre, pre-Nordberg from Naked Gun Series.

    So, the Juice did have the bucks to purchase the Bentley at one time. Certainly made out a lot better than Walter Payton or even Jim Brown after they announced their retirements.

    Hope that Bentley found a wise sensible buyer.

  118. @Reg Cæsar
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi


    …Warren Buffet driving around in a Rolls Royce.
     
    Have you ever been to Omaha? Do you realize how ridiculous that would look?

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Twinkie

    Have you ever been to Omaha?

    Ever freakin’ time I visit my in-laws, my mother-in-law insists that my wife go shopping with her at Borsheim’s in Omaha (which is owned by Buffett or one of his companies).

    I am so sick of that city, because of it. Sorry, Omaha, I know it’s not your fault.

  119. @Bill Jones
    @Twinkie

    Under no circumstances should you exercise your Google
    See:
    https://medium.com/@DanSanchezV/don-t-see-evil-148ae18bc9fe

    Don't do business with willing collaborators of the totalitarian state.

    Use
    https://duckduckgo.com/
    or
    https://www.ixquick.com/

    Replies: @Twinkie

    Under no circumstances should you exercise your Google

    Point very well taken, sir!

    What search engine do you use as the least evil of the bunch?

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Twinkie


    What search engine do you use as the least evil of the bunch?
     
    Sorry for the redundant question. I see that you recommended two alternatives. Many thanks!
  120. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Reg Cæsar

    Uh, yes, about as ridiculous that Warren Buffett still lives in Omaha. Granted, he most likely gets a few tax breaks but still. Of course, he probably does have a NY or Chi or SF or LA office so perhaps in those areas he would drive around in a nicer car.

    Bill Gates does not live in Omaha and has his own island area within Seattle. And Seattle does have a few ultra luxury car dealerships etc. Per Charles Murray's Losing Ground, Seattle area does contain a few clusters of Super Zip Codes.

    Mark Zuckerberg lives in Silicon Valley does he not (another one of Murray's Super Zip clusters) and he recently purchased 500k acres in HI.

    If he went all out to purchase that amount of land in HI, the least he can do is drive around in a suitable car that would tend to match his bank account.

    (e.g. A Rolls Royce. Or a fleet of them).

    Replies: @Twinkie

    a few clusters of Super Zip Codes

    Seattle area has *a lot* of Murray’s super zip codes.

    I happen to live part of the year in super zip code central, a larger region that likely contains the greatest concentration of super zip codes in the country (yes, it is *nominally* in the South or what I call the “Yankee-occupied South”). The thing about super zip codes is that most are upper middle (professional) class residential areas with widespread affluence, not the land of the super rich walled off from the masses.

  121. @MarkinLA
    @Stan D Mute

    Sorry but the whole business is sleazy. It would be better if it didn't exist at all. Like I said, save your money and buy that beater at the same auction where these guys get those cars.

    Replies: @Mike

    Your lack of knowledge is showing. You are implying that you save up and buy your vehicles where dealers buy their cars. Car auctions in LA are dealer only. OPG auctions are open to the public but legal dealers are very unlikely to buy a car there.

    People also do not have the ability or desire to save and pay cash for cars. Odds are very strong that this includes you.

    Your assertion that picking up cars is a feature of these businesses is about twenty years out of date. Nowadays people with bad credit can walk into shiny dealerships with $500 and a paystub (fake or real) and walk out with a very nice car. Why are they going to put thousands of dollars – which they don’t have – down on a beater?

  122. @Twinkie
    @Bill Jones


    Under no circumstances should you exercise your Google
     
    Point very well taken, sir!

    What search engine do you use as the least evil of the bunch?

    Replies: @Twinkie

    What search engine do you use as the least evil of the bunch?

    Sorry for the redundant question. I see that you recommended two alternatives. Many thanks!

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