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Here’s an article from The Wire in India on a topic I’ve wondered about for years but never seen anything about: America importing India’s caste system. Because no white Christian American has ever been guilty of caste discrimination — none of us understand it — the U.S. media has shown zero interest in the topic over the decades.

The Cisco Case Could Expose Rampant Prejudice Against Dalits in Silicon Valley
Networks of upper caste professionals work in tandem to keep out those they see as inferior.

Anahita Mukherji

08/JUL/2020

… A number of Dalits in US tech companies point to the irony of their casteist colleagues supporting Black Lives Matter while continuing to suppress Indians from so-called lower castes.

While caste discrimination among Indians in US workplaces is not new, tech companies largely ignored the practise, primarily because, in strictly legal terms, it is not unlawful.

A Dalit person contracted with an American multinational told The Wire that his offer letter talked of not allowing for discrimination on the basis of race or religion, but made no mention of caste.

It would seem to me that caste discrimination is religious, racial, and ethnic discrimination. David Reich can tell subcastes apart by their DNA, which shows they’ve been endogamous for close to two millennia.

California’s lawsuit will now make it hard for companies to ignore caste as a discriminatory practice. While the US has no specific law against the Indian caste system, the California Department of Fair Employment and Housing filed the lawsuit against Cisco using a section of America’s historic Civil Rights Act. The Act is an outcome of the movement led by African Americans in the 1960s to end oppression and segregation.

The lawsuit accuses Cisco of violating Title VII of the Civil Rights Act, which makes it unlawful to discriminate on the basis of religion, ancestry, national origin/ethnicity and race/colour. …

More than 90% of Indian immigrants to the US are from the upper castes, says the lawsuit, adding that the complainant, John Doe (a pseudonym widely used in American litigation) was the only Dalit in a team of upper caste Indians. …

In the interest of career growth, he largely avoided working with Indians. “I did have one Indian-American boss, but since he did not grow up in India, he was very liberal and I had no problems with him,” says Raj.

Mohan, another Dalit techie, never experienced caste-based discrimination at work over the past 16 years in the US. This is because he never had an Indian boss. Those who did have Indian bosses found that revealing their views on caste could adversely impact their career, and sometimes even cost them their jobs. …

Soundararajan of Equality Labs repeatedly points out that caste discrimination isn’t about isolated instances of an employee and manager. “Dalit employees are dealing with upper caste networks that operate across companies and share information with each other. So Dalits fear not only retribution from one person or company, but from an entire network that cuts across companies, severely affecting career prospects. These networks form a virtual noose around Dalits, throttling their potential to rise in their careers,” she says.

… While some last names immediately give away a person’s caste, many don’t. So Dalits find themselves being constantly probed to reveal their caste.

One common way Indians is to figure a person’s caste out is by inviting them for Hindu religious worship sessions, such as the satyanarayan katha, at a temple. Raj declined such an invitation from a Brahmin colleague. “At the time he did not know my caste,” says Raj. He says the Brahmin then patted him on the back in a seemingly casual gesture, but one that he felt was actually meant to check whether he was wearing a janeu, a ‘sacred thread’ worn by the dwija castes. “Once he figured my caste out, he immediately stopped socialising with me. Dinner invitations stopped too.” …

In the US, questions can be less direct. … Vegetarianism, long associated with upper caste purity, is often used to figure a person’s caste out. Over time, Mohit has learned how best to answer such questions. “I said that I would eat anything that moved, but my parents were vegetarian.” In other words, he was suggesting that he was born into a Brahmin family. While this is untrue – he is a Dalit and his parents are not vegetarians – it’s a lie he repeats for the sake of his career. …

Dalits talk of the opportunity cost of not being part of upper caste networks.

“Many companies fill vacant positions with internal referrals. Upper caste Indians have the first-mover advantage and misuse the system of internal referrals to fill posts with people from their caste. In addition to excluding Dalits, this system also excludes Blacks and other minorities,” says Raj.

You know, this may sound crazy, but, logically, these Brahmin networks might also work against white Americans, too.

Here’s the report on caste discrimination in the U.S. by Equality Labs that is referenced in the article.

 
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  1. Mactoul says:

    Not a balanced article but just one sided whining
    Not all upper caste people are Brahmins, not all Brahmins are vegetarians, not all or even many wear the sacred thread.
    Indian workplaces include people from all castes., including Dalits who have a quota.

  2. AKAHorace says:

    What Silicon Valley needs are a few Naxalites on their Diversity and Equity teams.

  3. One common way Indians is to figure a person’s caste out is by inviting them for Hindu religious worship sessions, such as the satyanarayan katha

    …which would expose any Christians among them. The Keralan priests in my diocese are wonderful guys. They wouldn’t survive a week in the tech industry.

    While some last names immediately give away a person’s caste, many don’t.

    What caste is Sodabottlewalla?

  4. anon[823] • Disclaimer says:

    You know, this may sound crazy, but, logically, these Brahmin networks might also work against white Americans, too.

    What could possibly go wrong with importing verbal, clannish, endogamous tribalists…again?

    • Replies: @AnotherDad
    , @Deadite
  5. nebulafox says:

    Immigrants carrying over communal grudges from home isn’t unusual: in Singapore and Malaysia, the various groups of Chinese kept up old hatreds in their new environments. (The Hakka were particularly despised because of their role in the Taiping Rebellion, and as gypsies who more often embraced that weird cross worshipping religion that the round eyes brought.) And one of the reasons the Irish were so prominent in urban American politics is because they were a compromise group who lacked a history with the other groups of Europeans coming in. Poles and Jews and Lithuanians and Germans would not vote for each other, but an Irishman offended nobody.

    What’s different about the Indians today is that they are disproportationately well paid, English speaking professionals to an extent unparalleled by any previous wave of immigration, and have far more latitude-both economically and socially as Oppressed People Of Color-to indulge in their prejudices rather than being forced to compromise with societal demands.

    • Agree: Thulean Friend
  6. Anon[153] • Disclaimer says:

    Importing third worlders = importing third world problems.

    America is well on our way to becoming a third world hellhole.

    Thanks, globohomo.

  7. anonymous[395] • Disclaimer says:

    On cue there is a user who will step in with his data from California merit scholars to demonstrate overwhelming Brahmin/upper caste superiority. There’s reason to suspect his data and analysis is shoddy. India conducts a Civil Service Exam ever year and the 1,000 or so who pass are ranked and rough caste category of each exam taker is identified. It is a good data set for roughly estimating IQ by caste status. The user makes up some excuse not to use the CSE results. He says Brahmins are discouraged by affirmative action and don’t take the test in sufficient numbers. But upper caste candidates I think still take at least 40% of the spots for elite civil services like the top tier administrative service and diplomatic service. So that argument doesn’t pass muster. In any case I’m sure the tested population of Indian-American students from which California merit scholars are picked is more representative of India than the million plus pool who take the country’s national civil service exam.

    An example CSE results list: https://dopt.gov.in/sites/default/files/UPSC%20WEB%203rd%20list%20.pdf

    General = not receiving affirmative action, includes high castes but also other forward groups (“form about 18.8% of the population, the number varying by region”)
    OBC = Other Backwards Caste, not Dalit but low caste
    SC = Dalit
    ST = Tribals

    I’m leaving this idea for scholars interested in exploring the structure of Indian intelligence.

  8. Anon[426] • Disclaimer says:

    OT:

    Missouri couple who defended home have rifle seized during police search: report

  9. epebble says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    What caste is Sodabottlewalla?

    That is most likely a parsi name. Parsi is an Indian term for Zoroastrians who left Iran when it fell to (Arab) Muslims and took refuge in India (from their ancestral language). They are usually very successful and are held in high esteem. (Approximately like Jews in U.S.). The largest industrial empire of India, TATAs, is a parsi family.

  10. Anonymous[100] • Disclaimer says:

    The consensus theory amongst the woke is that British colonialists ‘devised’ the Hindu caste system during their couple of centuries of dominating India, as a way of subjugating the Indians.

    Which is, of course, pure bullshit.

    • Replies: @a guy named me
  11. BB753 says:

    Ain’t diversity grand? I already feel enriched by the vibrant Indian caste system. Namaste!

  12. Anonymous[100] • Disclaimer says:

    Likely, upper caste Indians have a subtly attuned ‘radar’ with which they can more or least instantaneously determine another Indian’s caste status with an astonishing degree of accuracy.
    It is this phenomenon which is likely the cause of so much of caste angst currently occurring in the USA.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  13. Kronos says:

    I’m curious how off-the-boat South Asians, East Asians, and Eastern Europeans are first educated on political correctness in the US. Do more Americanized family members/friends lay out the ground rules?

    • Replies: @Alden
    , @TelfoedJohn
    , @bomag
  14. Alden says:
    @Mactoul

    The discrimination occurred among Indian immigrants working in America, not India.

  15. Alden says:
    @Kronos

    They learn it at the diversity and inclusion sessions when they start their new jobs. There’s days of orientation and training in diversity inclusion and anti racism for most jobs.

    • Replies: @Kronos
  16. A) @SteveSailer, do you know the average IQ of Brahmins vs. Dalits? And their numbers? It seems quite unlikely that a member of low IQ caste makes it into a high tech environment.
    B) we will now need quotas for all lower IQ Indian castes, too?
    C) It seems the Indian caste system worked well for a thousand years. Better than diversity functions in Europe or the USA. Oh yes, the Indians practiced strict segregation.
    DLM, Dalit Lives Matter!

    • Replies: @AnotherDad
    , @res
    , @anon
  17. It would seem to me that caste discrimination is religious, racial, and ethnic discrimination

    The Sanskrit word for caste, varna, literally means colour

    • Agree: Ano4
  18. BenKenobi says:
    @anonymous

    merit

    I would sooner uplift the least among Whites than import the brainiest pajeet. Even in uber-progressive Vancouver every liberal White I know lowers his or her voice and says “I hate brown people.” They are loathsome, repellent creatures no matter the caste.

    One justification for mass immigration that is often invoked is that of “competitiveness.” So we are to compete with India and China by importing indians and chinese? Yeah, alright. There are 2 billion combined absolute peasants still lingering back in both those countries but we allow their elites and not-so-elites to come here and swamp our economies, real estate sectors, and governments while they laugh up their sleeves at the silly Whites giving their country away (at the point of a hostile government gun).

    • Agree: bomag, Mr McKenna
    • Replies: @JMcG
  19. J.Ross says:

    … don’t want to be this guy but, given how all the other discrimination lawsuits are bogus excuses for personal failure …

    • Replies: @bomag
    , @Anonymous
  20. @nebulafox

    Thanks for the article, Steve. I already knew of the great Indian divide, not a big secret in STEM, but good to see an article in a respectable magazine.

    What’s different about the Indians today is that they are disproportationately well paid, English speaking professionals to an extent unparalleled by any previous wave of immigration

    The Indian tech mafia very much exists and Indians are very, how to put it mildly, very money-oriented and that is the main reason for their high renumeration. In my field Italian, English and German teams have a much better rep. But again the brightest Brahmins and Dalits are chasing the big bucks.

    I did notice puzzling undercurrents of animosity between some of my Indian colleagues. A few of them would barely talk to each other, and don’t get me started on Pakistanis. I can only imagine what is going in places like Microsoft. Still, Amazon is protected by a shield of diversity made in Cote d’Ivoire so at least one tech giant must be safe from these shenannigans.

    • Replies: @Pericles
  21. @Mactoul

    Not a balanced article but just one sided whining.

    Indian workplaces include people from all castes., including Dalits who have a quota.

    The original Aryan pride is in the house. Why should I care about quotas for Dalits in India ?

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
  22. TGGP says: • Website

    “It would seem to me that caste discrimination is religious, racial, and ethnic discrimination.”
    Language has long been one of the defining features of an ethnic group, but different castes speak the same language. The cross-cutting cleavages of caste and language has been given as the reason that the various parts of India didn’t develop into nation states. Pakistan is officially caste free due to being the country for Muslims, but it was initially dominated by Urdu-speaking Mohajirs who weren’t actually from any of the Pakistani states but instead from northern India. Eventually they ticked off the Bengali speakers in East Pakistan enough that they actually did split off to form a Bengali-speaking nation state, but an emphasis on Islam has so far been enough to keep the remaining components of West Pakistan united.

  23. Anonymous[249] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    Likely, upper caste Indians have a subtly attuned ‘radar’ with which they can more or least instantaneously determine another Indian’s caste status with an astonishing degree of accuracy.

    Exactly. As iSteve has pointed out on numerous occasions, India consists of thousands of sub-populations who have kept largely endogamous for around 3,000 years, with the usual droit de seigneur being exercised by the higher castes over lower-caste women (and men, but this is genetically irrelevant).

    Indians from India can readily distinguish other sub-castes from their own by subtleties of ethnic looks, language (“shibboleth” words and expressions used by a narrow sub-caste but not outside it), religious rituals, anything to do with food (which always has religious significance), etc. In fact, in India and similar societies there are well-established social rituals specifically designed to exchange crucial caste information accurately but politely within minutes of meeting a stranger for the first time.

    Individuals in the U.S. belonging to the same or related sub-caste cooperate closely to identify and repel imposters, e.g. by pooling information, obtaining background reports from “back home,” etc.

    The same highly-sensitive caste instincts operate among all old-world communities in areas, businesses, organizations etc. where they have achieved critical mass, hence the fighting between Oromo and Amhara Ethiopians in Minnesota.

    In fact, seen in evolutionary terms, a caste by definition remains in existence only so long as it remains able to exclude outsiders. Once outsiders are admitted in sizeable numbers, the cumulative effect over time quickly overwhelms the founder population.

    TAKE-AWAY: ALL ethnic immigrant groups can “smell minute ethnic differences from back home and enforce rigorous exclusion of out-groups.

    • Thanks: Just another serf
  24. @anonymous

    India conducts a Civil Service Exam ever year and the 1,000 or so who pass are ranked and rough caste category of each exam taker is identified. It is a good data set for roughly estimating IQ by caste status.

    I think the scholars would need to know how representative is the sample who take the test, and what the raw scores were.

    But it’s interesting that they publish the rankings. The no. 1 ranked guy in a nation of 1 billion+ people must be something of a celebrity. The guy who passed as 1,000/1,000 must have some special notoriety as well.

  25. Whiskey says: • Website
    @Anon

    They are so toast. Home invasion in one, two, three …

    Let that be a lesson for you. Expect cameras everywhere. Don’t be seen.

    White people don’t have the right to even exist. That’s clear. White people in America are like Jews in Germany. In 1932.

    • Replies: @Joseph Doaks
  26. Veracitor says:

    I tried to alert you to this with an off-topic comment here on July 1st, Steve, but I guess I should have emailed:

    (July 1, 2020) Today a furious storm of WhatsApp messages in Hindi and Gujarati is flying among thousands of (South Asian) Indian managers and executives who work for Silicon Valley firms, discussing the congenital, incorrigible, filthy ingratitude and treachery of all Untouchables (Dalits) and the consequent necessity of driving them out of the workforce in America as in India.

    See State of California Accuses Cisco and its Indian Managers of Discrimination Based on Indian Employee’s Caste (link).

    (Who wants to bet on whether Indian PM Modi will send a private, or even public, message of support to the Brahmin Cisco managers?)

  27. @anon

    You know, this may sound crazy, but, logically, these Brahmin networks might also work against white Americans, too.

    Ya think?

    Maybe there’s even another elite ethnic group that does tribal networking against other Americans?

    Hmm, maybe, just maybe having a one-people-nation is a much better program for the development and harmony of your nation? Maybe keeping these separate tribal groups *out* of your nation is a really, really good idea–pretty much the best thing you can do?

    ~~

    I will say, i know a lot of Indians–college, family, work, neighborhood, friends, kid’s friends.

    Stop immigration and this caste thing will be utterly destroyed in a couple generations, without the constant reinforcement from India. The Brahmins are able to operate–generationally sustained– as an elite caste on top of a coherent feudally structured society. It’s not a culture that translates to operating as a coherent, tribal minority in an indifferent Western nation. I.e. they haven’t built the majority-hostile tribalism of the Jews.

    Absent the Indian connection, the 2nd generation fades almost immediately into the white upper middle class. Half will directly marry out. The other half just another hyphenated ethnic group … whose kids will be even more likely to marry out. (A 2nd generation–tech industry–was here visiting my daughter tonight. I’d rate her ability to carry on as a real Brahmin even if she marries another 2nd generation Brahmin … close to zero.)

    But there’s no doubt that with continued immigration we’re importing yet more tribal squabbling.

    Ending immigration now and forever is critical if the American nation is to survive.

    • Agree: bomag
    • Replies: @Anonymous
  28. @SINCERITY.net

    C) It seems the Indian caste system worked well for a thousand years. Better than diversity functions in Europe or the USA. Oh yes, the Indians practiced strict segregation.

    LOL.

    The Indian caste system worked well for a thousand years … in maintaining a tedious agrarian feudalism.

    Western Christianity’s one-people-nations blew India–and every other civilization–out of the water. (The West’s two great failures were sins against this: allowing this one separate tribe–the Jews–to exist in their midst and surrendering to the siren call of cheap labor–African slavery–in the New World.) The West’s one-people nations so totally outclassed every other civilization in development it’s a joke. In fact, the reaction to this–the jealousies, the desire to migration, the inferiority complexes– is a big part of what the West is dealing with now.

    The West was fine in 1945. It’s current “diversity insanity”–which may indeed be fatal–stems from the imposition of minoritarianism on the US and its export to the rest of the West. It’s young.

    India in contrast has the worst native social system of any place on the planet. It locked in it’s feudal system in a way that generates the division and rancor of multi-ethnic empire within the class system of one nation … not to mention all the geographic division of language and ethnicity between Indian states. India is going to have a very, very long road to fix up this mess.

    The West has been infected with the curse of diversity. India’s got it “built in”.

    • Thanks: bomag
  29. @Kronos

    I expect the indoctrination comes first via the universities, and then via social groups at work. Trump is making baby steps to deal with the former.

  30. So much for import the best and brightest, and we won’t have problems with immigration.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  31. El Dato says:
    @Anon

    – Does that mean they have to go and buy a new one?
    – Or does it mean that house is now open for South African style “de-colonization”, complete with getting dunked in gas & put on on fire, leading to rapid changes in property values?

    https://www.rt.com/usa/494462-stlouis-mccloskey-police-gun-warrant/

    Gardner is one of several “progressive” prosecutors elected in the past few years whose campaign was bankrolled by billionaire currency speculator George Soros, and her behavior in office has hewed close to what one might expect from a Soros-backed district attorney, from releasing every person arrested during weeks of rioting following the police killing of George Floyd on Memorial Day in Minneapolis to prosecuting the state’s Republican governor for alleged invasion of privacy back in 2017.

  32. @anonymous

    On cue there is a user who will step in with his data from California merit scholars to demonstrate overwhelming Brahmin/upper caste superiority.

    395, i don’t know what you think your CSE list shows. It sure doesn’t contradict upper caste IQ dominance.

    What i see is “General”–upper caste–utterly dominating the top of the list. “General” was running about 90% of the first few pages and had to be >80% out through 500. Then at 512, suddenly the list flips–not rolls over, but flips like a switch–to essentially 100% “General” free. It’s impossible for that flip to be from raw test scores. It is clearly some sort of quota fill going on.

    This has the look of results you’d get if the US was say 20% white and 80% black–where there was a 60% black quota. Whites would utterly dominate the top of any IQ loaded exam based list. But there would be a sprinkling of “blacks”–most with higher than normal levels of white ancestry–mixed in. Then half way down … the list goes black and doesn’t go back.

    • Replies: @Dan Hayes
  33. You know, this may sound crazy, but, logically, these Brahmin networks might also work against white Americans, too.

    I’ve personally witnessed it.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  34. Pericles says:
    @Anon

    Anarcho-tyranny continues …

  35. Dan Hayes says:
    @AnotherDad

    Isn’t this just another manifestation of Indian laws/regulations against the Brahmins? Otherwise the gifted Bs would have the whole enchilada!

  36. Pericles says:
    @Black-hole creator

    You know what happens to your white or even diverse team when you get an Indian manager?

  37. robot says: • Website

    Has anyone yet tweaked a face-recognition program to assign semi-objective ‘beauty’ ratings? Would there need to be alternate scales, or does everyone secretly pretty much agree? Aren’t brahmins predictably much more attractive than lower castes? Aren’t employers justified in favoring attractive employees?

  38. Anonymous[339] • Disclaimer says:
    @AnotherDad

    Ending immigration now and forever is critical if the American nation is to survive.

    Well, that’s going to take a major change in the Judicial Branch, or perhaps the Legislative Branch, of the US Federal Government. The current interpretation of the 1964 Civil Rights Act is that European Descended Whites in the US must bring all non-European Descended Whites to a level of at least equality in all ways requested by the non-European Descended Whites physically present in the United States (see: C. Caldwell, _The Entitlement Society_, 2020/01). That is why the Supreme Court was able to make their recent DACA ruling that if foreigners brought themselves and their children into the US illegally, the children cannot simply be deported. It is also the reason for corporate diversity — corporations don’t like losing lawsuits.

    Two possible changes:
    a) Judiciary changes its intepretation of the 1964 act (a change as large as Brown vs. Board of Education, which is why judicial appointments are important).
    b) Legislative Branch invalidates/replaces 1964 law. Judicial Branch might just declare such an invalidation/replacement illegal, which would lead to an interesting conflict.

    Both changes sound unlikely, but, well, “things that can’t go on don’t”, and “things stay the same until they change”. The 1964 Civil Rights law has been a massive failure, and the impact of that failure has not yet hit us (because we still have enough money to both support it and eat). We’ll see what happens when the impact arrives.

    Consider this a very early “Heads up!”

  39. Ano4 says:
    @Kent Nationalist

    Originally the upper caste were mainly Aryan, while the lower caste were mainly Dravidian. In the early scriptures of Buddhism (an anticaste belief system) Siddhartha Gautama was described as “blue eyed and golden hued”, he was born in the Indian north, near modern day border with Nepal. At that time the Vedic Hindu caste system probably did not yet reach down south beyond the Vindhya Range.

    Even today the Brahmin who originate from the north of Vindhya Range are up to 70% Y haplogroup R1a, imported from Central Asia, probably from the Bronze Age Sintashta Arkaim culture. When Indus (Harappa/Mohendjo-daro) civilization remains were tested with a paleogenetics technique they have been found to be Y haplogroup J2 and L1a. L1a is strongly represented among the Tamil, although the Dravidian being aboriginal have a more diverse Y haplogroup structure.

    Indus civilization predates the Aryan diffusion into the Indian subcontinent. Indian Hindutva nationalists did not like the Y haplogroup results because they are trying their best to prove that Aryans were the ones who built Indus civilization, not the ones who contributed to its destruction. Also Y haplogroup L1a being more represented in the lower and southern castes is shocking for their higher and northern caste tastes.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    , @Malla
  40. dearieme says:
    @epebble

    WKPD

    Sir Dadabhai Naoroji Dordi … was an Indian Parsi scholar, trader and politician who was a Liberal Party Member of Parliament (MP) in the UK House of Commons between 1892 and 1895.

    Sir Mancherjee Merwanjee Bhownaggree KCIE … was a British Conservative Party politician of Indian Parsi heritage. He was a Member of Parliament (MP) representing the constituency of Bethnal Green North East in the Parliament of the UK between 1895 and 1906

  41. roo_ster says:

    The have to go back. All of them. And take their rotten crotch fruit with them.

  42. JMcG says:

    The pharmaceutical industry in SE PA is chock-a-block with dot indians. One housing development in suburban Philadelphia just had all 158 units bought by indians while still under construction. Another development just to the north is also completely Indian.
    The real estate signs there are written in Urdu or Sanskrit or whatever scribble it is that they use. As near as I can tell, the houses never make it into the MLS that the realtors use.

    On a related note, the US just banned Pakistani International Airlines from flying here. This follows Pakistan’s admission that some 40% of their pilots have fake licenses. 40%! This turned up as part of the investigation of the accident caused by two Airbus pilots landing on their engine pods, having mistakenly retracted their landing gear(!) and then taking off again. The damaged engines shelled and a couple hundred people died.

    The US isn’t equipped to deal with subcontinentals in large numbers.

    • Replies: @EdwardM
  43. JMcG says:
    @BenKenobi

    Another justification is the wonderful cuisine. Well, I had occasion to be in the back room of a highly touted Indian restaurant in my area a few years ago, and the experience left me shaken.

  44. bomag says:
    @Kronos

    All major media; schools; workplace rules; gov’t edicts and protocols; religious institutions; etc. are fully tuned to transmitting PC.

  45. bomag says:
    @J.Ross

    Point taken, but one should push back against this sort of stuff.

    The courts have been used to dispossess YT plenty from his posterity; might be time to file against some of this ethnic nepotism used by the Other.

  46. When you hear they’ve resumed settee, woke girl techies tighten your helmet straps.

  47. Anonymous[526] • Disclaimer says:
    @Kent Nationalist

    The Sanskrit word for caste, varna, literally means colour

    Isn’t that just a coincidence? Some darker-skinned Indians from the southern part of the country belong to higher castes.

  48. Altai says:

    You know, this may sound crazy, but, logically, these Brahmin networks might also work against white Americans, too.

    In many areas of technical fields people hire friends or acquaintances or bring them over. Happens all the time. Social networks become employment networks that can effectively discriminate over natives. This needn’t even be an expression of ethnocentric behaviour.

  49. As Steve has pointed out SWJ is beginning to be taken over by young female South Asians – who seem to have a particular viciousness and hatred of whites I had only previously observed in Jews- perhaps its the high verbal iq.

    And, as Steve points, underneath it all seems to be a raging hatred and jealously of Jenny with the long blonde hair and green eyes that all the guys liked in high school.

    Black SJW are just a battering ram – gimmee some bucks and a uni job – clever South Asians exploiting this system can be downright dangerous.

  50. You know, this may sound crazy, but, logically, these Brahmin networks might also work against white Americans, too.

    When I was in college, I used to help an Indian girl with her homework. We were both computer science students. After college, she got a job right off the bat with Google. Recently (this is about 15 years later) she and her husband sold their 3/4 million dollar home and are planning to travel around for a while until deciding where to settle next. Since college I (a privileged white guy) have been stuck in jobs writing SQL for reports. I am sure she got her job with Google through being Indian and having friends on the inside. She is a woman, a woman of color, which is what is shoved down our throat that are the ones being excluded from STEM jobs. All that anybody hears about anything going on in our workforce by the media is BS!

    • Thanks: Joseph Doaks
    • Replies: @Joe Stalin
  51. @epebble

    Thee words, one of which isHindi: Soda. Bottle. Walla[h].

  52. Wait a sec. So there are no laws against caste discrimination in the US? So I can walk up to any wog and say, “You really look like a Dalit. Are you a dung collector?” And no “hate speech” offenses?

    I am so going to have fun with this. Is there another word for “Dalit”? How is it pronounced?

  53. @epebble

    I have not yet visited Regent’s Park to check that the monument donated to Britain by thankful Parsis is still standing

  54. @Anon

    Now that they’ve been completely disarmed by the State and left with no means of defending themselves, how long before the mob returns to fulfill their mission?

  55. @Anon

    Is there a better illustration than this as to why you need more that just ONE firearm and why background checks are just a ruse for police to know when you are acquiring firearms outside the “gun show loophole?” The State of IL has their own system to determine if you are “legally” purchasing a gun that wastes money duplicating the FBI “Instant Check.” Another Cosmopolitan gun controller feature of IL.

    Deliberately being denied their Second Amendment “Under Color of Law.”

    This is why you need to stash guns outside your home: the “safe deposit box guns.”

    We need to start encouraging people to do bloc voting like blacks:

    I Only Vote For Swimmers!

    Do you think they like the Beach Boys?

  56. Anon7 says:

    I will not be satisfied until the United States of America has been REPLACED by the Zoological States of America, in which every single subculture on the face of the Earth has been transplanted here. Somalian genocidal clan warfare, Ethiopian civil wars, India’s caste discrimination – I want all of it.

    In an unguessable plot twist, transplanting them to America does not solve any of these ancient conflicts and rivalries!

    America will be an Epcot horror show – it will be an easy drive to see all of humanity’s flaws lined up, one after the other. Walt Disney would be beaming with pride.

  57. Sean says:
    @epebble

    https://www.unz.com/pfrost/the-parsis/

    While the British saw the other Indians, “as passive, ignorant, irrational, outwardly submissive but inwardly guileful” (Luhrmann 1994, p. 333), the Parsis were seen to have the traits that the colonial authorities tended to ascribe to themselves.

    The Parsis are renowned for achievement in many areas of life—trade, education, philanthropy, and popular culture. Yet they number only about 100,000 in the entire world (Wikipedia, 2013).

    Ashkenazim may be the only extant human population with polymorphic frequencies of IQ-boosting disease mutations, although another place to look for a similar phenomenon is in India. In particular, the Parsi are an endogamous group with high levels of economic achievement, … and tremor disorders, diseases not present in their neighbours. (Cochran et al., 2006

    At present, we simply don’t know enough about Parsi history to understand what social and psychological characteristics may have been favored during the long centuries between the arrival of this community in India and its encounter with the British from the 17th century onward. […] Whatever eventually happens, such research may become a race against time. You see, the Parsis are dying out. They have long had high rates of late marriage and non-marriage, and both trends have worsened in recent decades. By 1980-82, their total fertility rate was already down to 1.12, i.e., half the replacement rate. By 2000, it was 0.94. The latest data, from 2001-2006, indicate a total fertility rate of 0.88 (Patel, 2011). That’s even lower than Japan’s fertility rate. And, unlike Japan, the Parsi community cannot afford to lose a few million people. A recent Parsi novel, Family Matters, highlights the growing sense of foreboding:

    “Demographics show we’ll be extinct in fifty years. Maybe it’s the best thing. What’s the use of having spineless weaklings walking around[…] ” (Mistry, 2002, pp. 46, 385, 388)

    Philanthropist Ratan Tata (bought Jaguar from Ford for a song) has never married. Original gangsta thug George Floyd had multiple children and performed (99% of men cannot ) in a porn film. There is a price to be paid for everything.

  58. Anon7 says:

    In a related story, American doctors plead for jobs in American hospitals, so they can complete their medical education. Their places are being taken by superior doctors from India!

    Unmatched U.S. Doctors Urge Trump to Prioritize Americans Over Foreigners for Medical Residencies

    In a letter to Trump and Congress, unmatched American doctors say they should be given priority for residency spots over foreign doctors who are continuing to arrive on J-1 and H-1B visas. The program currently ensures U.S. tax dollars are paying to given residency spots to foreigners over American graduates.

    India’s Brahmins are getting the last laugh over British imperialism, by humiliating Britain’s American descendants.

    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
  59. @Reg Cæsar

    Parsis are very commonly named for their (or their forebears’) line of work, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farokh_Engineer

    I dimly remember hearing your example — an actual person — as Sophie Sodasyphonwalla, but Google returns no hits.

  60. J1234 says:

    I know nothing about the caste system in India, but I do recall an interaction in an office I once worked at that was owned by an Indian. The owner used to hire a few young men from India, and most of them had the somewhat lighter skin tone of the boss. One of these young men, however, had almost Negroid skin coloring, though you could easily tell he wasn’t from Africa. Also, his English wasn’t quite as good as the other Indians in the office.

    This guy was teamed up to work with another Indian (lighter skinned) who was very polite and gracious (in accordance with his culture) and well liked by the (predominantly) Anglo American employees. The light skinned fellow wasn’t very gracious or polite to his dark skinned countryman, however. It seemed to me that he could barely tolerate him, and carried an aloofness towards him and him alone.

    One day, as the dark guy was working on a task over a set of drawings, the light guy pushed his hands away from the drawings and slapped them, as if he were a child. It was a very unprofessional gesture for the line of work we were in, and seemed out of character for a guy who appeared to be pretty together in most other ways. While I still appreciate the purpose of decorum, I learned from the Indians in that office 30 years ago – through this incident and many others – that polite people aren’t necessarily nice people. A good lesson to learn.

  61. “these Brahmin networks might also work against white Americans, too”

    Presumably, “dalit” is just the default category for anyone outside the caste system. So Americans are dalits.

  62. Anon[311] • Disclaimer says:

    @ You know, this may sound crazy, but, logically, these Brahmin networks might also work against white Americans, too.

    It’s not the know-how, it’s the know-who. Who can you trust?

    Say for example, noted Harvard economist Philippe Aghion, a good friend of Macron. So his parents arrived in Paris from Egypt fleeing repression, his charming mom somehow founded the Chloé brand and all is family intelligence, hard work and respectability.
    But couple of years back, Aghion, in a conference with other notable economists and a Nobel Prize winner, helped reopen the case of a 1978 Paris murder of Algerian Communist Henri Curiel by the fascists. Of course it turns out they’re cousins.

    https://www.algerie360.com/henri-curiel-assassine-par/

    Again, who can you trust?

    However, good luck if you try finding something about Philippe Aghion’s private life through google.

  63. Deadite says:
    @anon

    I see this at my company. HR is run by Indians, and surprise! Now upper management is also largely Indian.

    I’m in California. Saved up enough equity in my house to buy a nice one in Colorado. I loose my beloved weather, but my kids won’t be discriminated against by indians and the rest of the pokemon intersectional point holders.

    I know a lot of people in Colorado hate Californians but I’m the old fashioned type. I’m going to help fight against the blue when I get there since I’ve seen what the San Fran set do to a state when they gain full power.

    • Replies: @anon
  64. I was to a Jain temple on my last trip to India and the guide wallah said that the Jains invented Jainism because they were from the merchant caste and weren’t allowed to be Hindu priests. Only Brahmins need apply.

    Godfrey Daniels, I said. Mother of Pearl.

    So now we understand the Buddha. As a prince, in the warrior caste, he wasn’t allowed to be a Hindu priest either — only Brahmins need apply — so he had to found his own religion.

  65. Deadite says:
    @John Derbyshire

    Love seeing John Derbyshire commenting here. Among with iSteve and Michelle Malkin, he is among my heroes.

    Basically stopped reading NRO when they dumped you, except for Steyn. When they dumped him it was over No more clicks. Not even for VDH (Unz or VDare should get his articles syndicated).

    • Agree: Jim Don Bob
    • Replies: @John Derbyshire
  66. ATBOTL says:

    Indian Hindus all need to go back. Every single one.

  67. res says:
    @anonymous

    Thank you for bringing data to the conversation, but AFAICT that file does not have actual score information in it. Which is critical given how the qualification cutoffs vary by caste.

    Do you have any data for the scores of those who received a service allocation? Because absent that, there is not much we can conclude about IQ from your file.

    Lacking that, let’s look at some other information. First, note that there are a number of tests. We are looking at the Civil Services Examination. This looks like a good site for information.
    https://www.upsc.gov.in/examinations/cutoff-marks
    Focusing on 2018 CSE cutoffs:
    https://www.upsc.gov.in/sites/default/files/CutOff-CSE-2018-Engl-R.pdf
    We see that the “Marks secured by the last recommended Candidate” (seems like the best comparison metric there) vary by caste as follows:

    General 982
    OBC 938
    SC 912
    ST 912

    Unfortunately, I can’t find exam mean and standard deviation information which would help give context to those numbers. Anyone?

    But from the topper page below we do know the score of Kanishak Kataria (who is SC): 1121

    The 2018 version of your list at available at
    https://cseplus.nic.in/Home/ServiceAllocation?Year=2018
    In that list an SC (Kanishak Kataria) is #1 and the (almost) disappearance of General starts at 365.

    This list of NOT recommended candidates (which includes scores) would probably be a decent place to start for estimating relative high end IQs of the different castes. Of course, real statistical data for all test takers would be much better, but I suspect that is unobtainium. I wonder why? ; )
    https://www.upsc.gov.in/sites/default/files/PublDiscl-CSM-18-Engl_0.pdf

    BTW, here is much detail (e.g. syllabus) on the CSE. It looks like an extremely hard core exam.
    https://upsc.gov.in/sites/default/files/Notification_CSP_2018_Engl.pdf

    This page gives score breakdowns for the toppers 2014-2018:
    https://www.timesnownews.com/education/article/here-is-how-much-you-need-to-top-upsc-civil-services-examinations-ias-cut-off-topper-marks-analysis/460654

    This paper looking at assignments by region might also be of interest.
    https://economics.stanford.edu/sites/g/files/sbiybj9386/f/thakur_jmp_sept15_2019.pdf

    P.S. AnotherDad, thanks for your analysis. That transition at 512 is dramatic. I wonder what is happening there.

    P.P.S. Anon395, FWIW, you sound about as biased as the user you criticize.

    • Thanks: botazefa
    • Replies: @anonymous
  68. res says:
    @SINCERITY.net

    Richard Lynn paper:
    Caste Differences in Intelligence, Education and Earnings in India and Nepal: A Review
    http://www.mankindquarterly.org/archive/issue/59-1/8

    Abstract

    Caste differences in intelligence, education and earnings in India and Nepal are reviewed. The highest caste, Brahmin, had higher intelligence estimated at 4.7 IQ points, as well as higher education and earnings when compared with the lowest castes, known as Dalits, Sudas, or Scheduled Castes.

    I don’t have the paper. Can anyone comment on the details?

  69. While these low- and high-caste Indians seem to hate each other’s guts, they would most certainly join forces against anyone looking to reform the H-1B, and “racism” would be their primary weapon.

  70. The thing a lot of Westerners don’t understand is that jati is very much a localised issue. The relative ranking of various jatis can be very dependent on their geographical position.

    So for instance, khatris and are considered OBCs in Rajasthan, and Gujarat but regarded as high caste in Punjab. A Gujarati is not going to know about high status of Punjabi Khatris or vice versa unless they read about it online or something. His perception will be shaped by his local conditions, and these conditions can vary quite a bit!

    Scripture is not always a perfect match with reality. From a Vedic perspective the economically more backward “gauwalas” are the real Vaishyas. The very prosperous mercantile groups that are considered Vaishya now don’t really fit the early scriptures.

    Jatts have become a ‘forward’ caste in Punjab mainly due to economic reasons. They are a land-owning caste in that state and in earlier decades, many made large sums selling their land. With population growth, things have changed. Average farms are much smaller, and mobility is more limited as a result. They are now engaged in agitating in India to be classified as backward castes.

  71. Anonymous[401] • Disclaimer says:
    @J.Ross

    Exactly. You guys think the dalit activists are going to stop with targeting brahmins? They’re already allied with Black activists, just Google black dalit alliance. Once they extract their pound of flesh from brahmins, they’re going to come after the biggest, richest prize- white guys.

    Most dalits are not like this, in their defense. A small minority of activist dalits have been radicalized by Western-supported organizations into perennial hatred and suspicion for other castes.

    Like that story about the guy who claims someone patting him on the back is checking for a sacred thread- lol. That’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve heard.

    The vast majority of brahmins in the tech industry don’t wear sacred threads. It’s a marker for old school village brahmins and upper castes, not educated modern ones. And a thread is pretty easy to see if you work with someone for a few days- it shows up near the neck, just under the collar. You don’t need to see someone with their shirt off, or pat their back.

    The person probably was just being nice to him inviting him for a religious event at a temple, and must have been disappointed by the narrator’s lack of enthusiasm. But when you have a victim mindset even innocuous things like a pat on the back from someone who invited you to an event seems like rayyciss.

  72. @Anon

    Full on anarko-tyranny. These folks carry their guns on their property to protect their property, while a mob trespasses in their private neighborhood.

    The police can do absolutely nothing about trespassing–even rampaging–mobs. But they can go grab these white people’s guns. They’re a real “threat” to public order.

    What judge signed this warrant? On suspicion of what crime? A protesting mob should show up at their house.

    ~~

    The face of this woman! That’s “America” today. Big (black) sister.

    • Replies: @iDeplorable
    , @Joe Stalin
  73. Kronos says:
    @Alden

    So the Indian guy knows he can’t beat customers of a lower caste?

  74. Of course this is going to work against whites. High caste Indians think their DNA made every European accomplishment. They’re owed.

  75. Anonymous[337] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mactoul

    Step One:

    Prevent Entry and Settlement in The United States.

    Rest is just conversation.

  76. Anonymous[337] • Disclaimer says:
    @Redneck farmer

    Lel.

    The US literally dredges the slums of Asia Africa Arabia and Latin America and dumps them on US Schools Roads Environment Hospital Prisons etc etc.

    #mass immigration

  77. Peterike says:

    Peterike’s Law in action. Indian Caste edition.

    • Agree: Bleuteaux
  78. Steve, an acquaintance tells me it is all the fault of the Nazis!

    He claims that anti-Dalit discrimination has increased since the extremely-far-right nativist white-supremacist BJP came to power in India a few years ago!

  79. @AnotherDad

    What judge signed this warrant? On suspicion of what crime? A protesting mob should show up at their house.

    This is the most obvious solution to these problems. Remove the DA’s, Mayors, that won’t enforce the law from their jobs. Citizens arrests, followed by citizen tribunals and then punishment by citizens. IOW, as societies have governed themselves for thousands of years.

    Whites are checkmated in these situations because they continue to follow the rules, even as those charged with enforcing the rules loudly and clearly signal they will not do so.

  80. @Ano4

    In the early scriptures of Buddhism (an anticaste belief system) Siddhartha Gautama was described as “blue eyed and golden hued”, he was born in the Indian north, near modern day border with Nepal.

    A Hmong girl once told me her people trace their people’s origin to Eastern Europe in the distant past. She said that’s why the occasional newborn is blond. That sounds wholly fantastic, but I have seen a few blond Hmong babies. It doesn’t last.

  81. No curry, no justice.

  82. anon[309] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    Not a big surprise. Here’s another source.

    https://www.dailywire.com/news/breaking-warrant-served-on-st-louis-couple-who-defended-private-property-guns-confiscated-report-says

    How many of us knew that some of the Only Black Lives Matter mob showed up again at this house on July 3? I sure didn’t. Second time around the lawyer sat on a balcony with his lawyer, while private security stood on the property line and some cops milled around, probably in the background. The protestors waved signs and shouted slogans for 15 minutes, then left.

    If Joe Lawyer had done that the first time he would not have become international news. Plus he’d still have his Harry Potter magic wand.

    The search warrant that was served does not seem to have an arrest warrant associated, that’s curious. His AR-15 was removed from the house by police, her popgun had already been handed over to an attorney. They’re going to meet with the St. Louis Circuit Attorney – that’s the prosecutor – next week. It should be interesting to see how that turns out, what grounds she can articulate for seizing a firearm but without an arrest. I’m sure no modern DA would ever engage in anything like a bill of attainder, of course.

    Who is this prosecutor? Kimberly Gardiner. Who is that?

    The first black woman DA in St. Louis. Some cuckservatives I know have not been bothered by the Soros campaign to buy DA elections. Stuff like this should shake them up, but maybe not.

    If “anarcho-tyranny” is too complicated an idea for some, just try “selective enforcement” instead.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    , @SunBakedSuburb
  83. brahmins need to go back to India. Make India great again.

  84. Ram Kumar says:

    Hey,

    Quoting an article from the ‘The Wire’ is like a quoting an article from Jacobin or Counterpunch. You do not realize that these guys are more red than Lenin? The current anti-whitey NY crimes is fascist compared to the guys at the ‘The Liar’ as they are known in India. And equality labs? ROTFLMAO. I guess dot indians should also take their cues on American society and how horribly racist it is from BLM. For a ‘right wing’ site, you sure like communists when it suits your agenda…no wonder you guys are reeling over there. Good luck with your coming communist cultural revolution.

  85. Malcolm Y says:

    Our old friend TechInsurgent went through this years ago. Here’s what happens when there’s an indian (dot head not feather) as boss.

    1. All whites will be fired for some idiotic reason or no reason, if you complain it’s because you don’t have the indians’ impressive skill level – whiny sour grapes.
    2. The staff will become all indians
    3. The staff will become indians from his part of the country
    4. The staff will become all indians of his caste
    5. The staff will become all relatives of his

    6. The place will go to hell because everyone won’t work anymore the jobs are considered sinecures.

  86. @Deadite

    Lor’ bless you, guv’nor!

  87. Anonymous[220] • Disclaimer says:
    @The Alarmist

    You know, this may sound crazy, but, logically, these Brahmin networks might also work against white Americans, too.

    I’ve personally witnessed it.

    Care to share your anecdotal evidence?

  88. Anon7 says:

    Seriously, f**k these Brahmin momzers who come here to take over. They lived for millennia in a country that was such a s**thole that their sanatana dharma, their eternal religious viewpoint, is that life sucks so bad that the only reasonable response is to create an alternate emotional brain reality in which it doesn’t exist.

    “Back to the mud hole, Hadji.” – Sam Kinison

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  89. Muggles says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    >What caste is Sodabottlewalla?<

    This is obviously a joke name. I.e. "Soda Bottle Walla."

    I think "walla" is Hindi suffix meaning, approx., a carrier, worker, servant.

  90. Muggles says:

    In my Texas suburban area school district, I noticed that all but one of the district’s Valedictorians were South Asian. I assume Indian but some might have been Pakistani.

    Ditto all the local spelling bee champs.

    Of course around here they are all well educated kids with similar parents working in the tech or energy industries or in medicine.

    While Indians are notorious for cheating on exams, etc. you have to think that these kids all didn’t scam their way through secondary school. I think they just study harder.

    Like Jews and upper class immigrants from most places, it is the home environment and values which seem to rise to the surface.

    Few if any young Indians seem to excel in sports, though perhaps soccer and tennis or golf, might have some top athletes. On a recent trip out of town, at the edge of suburbia in that direction, there was a huge set of playing fields that advertised itself as the “largest cricket sports complex in America.” So add cricket, but that’s not played in the local school district, yet.

    • Troll: 3g4me
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @J.Ross
    , @Peterike
  91. @Anon7

    Courtesy of the Jews.

    If you look at the lawyers trying very hard to get green cards to all the H-1bs, the majority are Jewish. If you look at the tech giants of America that normalized the usage of H-1bs, they’re also run by Jews .

  92. anon[381] • Disclaimer says:
    @SINCERITY.net

    The degree to which the Brahmin avoids touching any object handled by a Dalit seems petty to Westerners, but perhaps it makes sense to go to great lengths to avoid sharing DNA with other Races?

  93. Bucky says:

    BTW this is the primary problem with Kamala Harris.

  94. @epebble

    Parsi is an Indian term for Zoroastrians who left Iran when it fell to (Arab) Muslims and took refuge in India (from their ancestral language).

    There are a couple dozen “Irani” cafes extant in Bombay today. As a veteran crossword solver, I always hated that word appearing in the grid. Nobody calls them that! They’re “Iranians”.

    But evidently they are “Irani” in Bombay. I’ll be sure to include information that should I ever submit a puzzle myself.

    • Replies: @RSDB
  95. Anonymous[220] • Disclaimer says:
    @Muggles

    While Indians are notorious for cheating on exams, etc. you have to think that these kids all didn’t scam their way through secondary school. I think they just study harder.

    Like Jews and upper class immigrants from most places, it is the home environment and values which seem to rise to the surface.

    Could be that genetics plays a role.

    • Agree: Muggles
  96. nebulafox says:
    @epebble

    There are Kurds who are apostatizing and embracing Zoroastrianism. Apparently ISIS was one bad experience too mant.

    And yes, the Persians did quite well for themselves in India as professionals and administrators, not unlike Germans in the Russian Empire. Persian immigration continued in the centuries afterward under Muslim conquest dynasties. A lot of the Mughal “Indian” bureaucrats who the British dealt with during the conquest were actually Persians. Khomeini’s grandfather was born in Lucknow.

  97. @nebulafox

    “What’s different about the Indians today is that they are disproportationately well paid, English speaking professionals to an extent unparalleled by any previous wave of immigration, and have far more latitude-both economically and socially as Oppressed People Of Color-to indulge in their prejudices rather than being forced to compromise with societal demands.”

    A few points:

    1) Indians, unlike Arabs, get to grift off of affirmative action programs, despite no history of discrimination in the USA. The fact that so many groups can claim ‘oppression points’ is a travesty.

    2) The Indians that come over are clannish and mercenary to a T. You don’t find them volunteering, everything is about money.

    3) Indians pool money together to buy up hotels and other businesses. When you have 30 people in your family, you have a large pool of investors.

    4) Indians also send members of the family into different jobs where the family as a whole achieves a type of emergence. One kid in banking, one in real estate, one in appraisals, one in hospitality.. they can then call one special favours from a wide range of businesses.

    5) Indians are also very very fond of insurance fraud. Ask anyone who works at an insurance agency.

    On the whole, they are hard to compete with, even for the Chinese. The clannish nature, money orientation and all the rest of that are one thing, but the large family sizes and geographic dispersion give them some of the advantages of Jews. Upper caste Indians are not dumb, and they work much harder than whites, blacks or hispanics at making money.

  98. nebulafox says:
    @anon

    But preventing billionaires from hijacking American politics would Kill Freedom.

  99. “More than 90% of Indian immigrants to the US are from the upper castes …”

    That’s why they’re so uppity.

  100. @anon

    “Stuff like this should shake them up”

    The mention of Soros leads to an eye-roll from the unimaginative, followed by the utterance of “conspiracy theory”. But the Soros agenda of placing chaos agents in DA positions across the country is easy for the practical mind to understand. At this point in the timeline we are all 1990s shortwave radio enthusiasts.

  101. J.Ross says:
    @Muggles

    Cheating should not be thought of as an deficiency of intelligence but of ethics, which makes it more serious. In the real world, the goal of all academic activity, if an employee you don’t want to replace doesn’t know something he should know, you tell him (or tell him to learn it) and the problem is solved. But if you think that employee is stealing, or is capable of lying the firm about something important, it’s very different.

  102. @Kent Nationalist

    “colour”

    Thank you for using the proper spelling.

  103. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Black-hole creator

    The original Aryan pride is in the house.

    What do you mean by this?

    • Replies: @Black-hole creator
  104. As says:

    That stuff about patting someone on the shoulder to see if someone is wearing a sacred thread is completely bogus and ridiculous.

    —-

    Dalits in India get preferences big time in colleges, professional schools, jobs, and promotions. I don’t how many are actually qualified for the positions they occupy. I don’t think many are.

    On thing is in America, because they don’t take caste into account, Indians are more likely to be judged based on whether they can actually do the work.

  105. As says:

    There are definitely ethnic affinity networks among certain Indians.

    There are many Indian ethnic groups here, and some are much more clannish than others. These clannish groups strongly favor their own and discriminate against outsiders.

    The software industry is dominated by people who Telugu. They are not particularly smart and are never among the experts in the field. But they’re clannish and they help their own.

  106. As says:

    Caste isn’t discussed here, and I don’t know of the caste of most people I meet unless they’re using their caste name, like Patel.

  107. @John Derbyshire

    I remember reading, back in the 70s, about Sodabottlewala being a Parsi last name. If the name is apocryphal, it’s been around a while.

    It’s credible, though. Parsi Zoroastrians in Victorian era British India gave themselves anglicized last names based on their trades. The Wikipedia list of Parsis includes three Engineers and three Contractors, and a Major who was, confusingly, the head of the Indian Air Force.

    The supply of safely drinkable aerated water to the British overlords was quite likely a lucrative niche supply business in those days— it is quite conceivable that some Parsi guy actually gave himself that last name.

    The finest sounding name, by far, in that Wikipedia list is Sir Cowasji Jehangir Readymoney.

    • Replies: @donut
  108. @Mike Zwick

    I’ve noticed that WIND-AM(560)’s Dan Proft will only have on people who will interview a pro-imported labor standpoint; I have yet to hear an anti-H1B guest interview.

  109. Malla says:
    @Ano4

    Indian Hindutva nationalists did not like the Y haplogroup results

    There is one more reason why these Hinduwadi crackpots (unfortunately many of my relatives are some of them) hate the Y chromosome results and the partial Central Asian (but today genetically closest to today’s Northern Slavs like Russians/Poles/ Czechs and Balts like Latvians/Lithuanians) Aryan origins of Hindu/ Indian culture is because they want to position Christianity and Islam as foreign religions. Even the Hindutva RSS was not very anti-British during the days when we were part of the Empire but more anti-Christian and anti-Muslim.
    The point is our Hindu ancestors played a big part in destroying Buddhism from India (India was once a predominantly Buddhist country, the state of Bihar is named after Buddhist Viharas) and restricting Jainism. Even the materialist atheist Charvak ideology was destroyed. The Islamic invaders did the work of finishing off Buddhists completely but before that, Brahmanism/Hinduism did a good job of weakening Buddhism down to nearly nothing leaving the Muslims a small job to complete.
    But as soon the Brahmists nearly finished off their enemy Buddhism, in came the Muslim hordes. What bad luck! The Islamic hordes killed and pillaged the idol worshipers to their glee. Indeed the earlier Islamic rulers particularly targeted the Brahmans. But later Muslim Mughal empires were comparatively friendly to the Brahmins, even allowing Brahmins into high positions, if I am not mistaken Brahmans were exempt from Jaziya Tax.
    Then came the Catholic Christians (There was Christianity in India before that, the St. Thomas Christians in South India, St. Thomas was killed by Brahmin priests/ Hindu King, India also have a few Orthodox Christians in South India). The Catholics (Portuguese) were brutal too as times but not as much as Muslims, mild version of Muslims. But later came the Protestant Missionaries. They built hospitals, cared for the lower castes, opposed Devdasi (slave girls in temples made into prostitutes) system, brought education to the down trodden, spoke of love and joy. For the Brahmanical forces, Protestantism was “Buddhism part 2”. Freakin Scary. Add to that the British Raj brought Western learning to the lower castes to create individuals like Dr. Ambedkar and Jyotiba Phule. How Scary!!!
    And though Buddhism was easier to destroy and absorb into Hinduism, these Abrahamic faiths were harder to digest by a pagan religion like Hinduism. Hence the trick of positioning “Islam and Christianity as foreign religions” to be destroyed in the name of Nationalism and the idiotic claim that “Buddhism, Sikhism and Jainism are types of Hinduism”. LOL All tricks to finish off and absorb these rival religions to bring back Brahmanical superiority.
    But if Hinduism is partially formed from Aryan and hence “foreign” (outside South Asia) influences, positioning it as 100% indigenous (as against Islam and Christianity) becomes difficult. One more reason why the Hinduwadis oppose the AIT. It is all a game.

    • Replies: @Ano4
  110. PPG says:

    The idea that 90% of Indians in the U.S. are upper caste is absurd. I would put the number higher than what it is in India, but well below 50% or even 25%. Depends on how you define “upper caste” too. The strict definition would be Brahmin (priest), Rajput (warrior), Kayastha (scribe). The vast majority of Indians in the U.S. belong to the middle castes of merchants, tradesmen, small farmers from back home, who in various local jurisdictions may even qualify for backward caste (OBC) status and quota benefits, though not universally so.

    The above comment about India’s Prime Minister is idiotic. He himself belongs to a backward caste. The President is a Dalit. India hasn’t had a Brahmin Prime Minister in 15 years.

    I don’t work in Silicon Valley, but I don’t get the impression that the Indians there are Brahmin. In fact, they are probably a small minority.

    Where Brahmins are over represented in the U.S. is in the spelling bees, which are an absurd waste of time for a child, IMO. And also as agitators in left wing politics, which is the same as back home in India.

    That anecdote about someone checking someone else for a sacred thread by patting their back is the most absurd thing I’ve ever heard. Few Brahmins are wearing it unless they are working in the temple, even back in India. We also don’t need to go to such as silly extent to tell whose one of us.

    • Replies: @anonymous
  111. Peterike says:
    @Muggles

    “ Like Jews and upper class immigrants from most places, it is the home environment and values which seem to rise to the surface.”

    Yeah and how are those Jewish “values” working out for legacy white Americans?

    • Replies: @Dissident
  112. @Mr. XYZ

    If I remember correctly, the most accepted theory is that the original Aryans migrated to India long-long time ago and set up their caste system with the Dravidians relegated to lower castes. The first commenter was clearly from India and he did not appreciate that article criticizing their status quo.

    • Replies: @Malla
  113. nebulafox says:
    @jbwilson24

    Indians are also generally much more extroverted and verbal than East Asians, like the Jews. That’s very useful in the modern economy.

  114. Anon7 says:
    @DB Cooper

    When I was an undergrad, if you met someone who was Indian, they were actually FROM India. Now, most of the Indian people I meet were born here. Lots of the men still return to India to met their wives, picked for them by their extended clans back in the old country. They’ll need visas, too.

    Lots of Indian engineers have multiple masters degrees in STEM topics. When you look up the college that granted them their degree, you find out it’s the equivalent of an unaccredited community college in the US.

    Thanks for the link.

  115. Anon[876] • Disclaimer says:
    @jbwilson24

    Point 4 really isn’t correct. The rest sounds true.

  116. donut says:
    @PiltdownMan

    ” Sir Cowasji Jehangir Readymoney.” That’s a good name across all cultures .

  117. RSDB says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    Iranis are the new Iranian immigrants from the British colonial period and later; Parsis are the old Iranian/Persian immigrants.

  118. anon[175] • Disclaimer says:
    @Deadite

    You are about 10 years too late. Colorado is now a solidly blue state, courtesy of immigration from south of the border and from California. At the state level the Democrats control both the House and the Senate and the Governor is a liberal gay (((YKW))) from California. At the federal level, Senator Corey Garner, a squish Republican as you can find, will lose badly in 2020 to Democrat John Hickenlooper, a former mayor of sanctuary city Denver and former Governor. Colorado will gain a Congressional seat as a result of the 2020 census, taking it up to 8 seats in the House, three of which will be allocated to the red, rural parts of the state. The Republican party is dead in Colorado.

    Colorado is basically San Francisco East now, and the San Fran set is in complete control of the state. You might want to check out Wyoming, Idaho or Montana.

  119. @jbwilson24

    On the whole, they are hard to compete with, even for the Chinese. The clannish nature, money orientation and all the rest of that are one thing, but the large family sizes and geographic dispersion give them some of the advantages of Jews. Upper caste Indians are not dumb, and they work much harder than whites, blacks or hispanics at making money.

    Outside of the West, the Chinese compete just fine against Indians. The Chinese may fare more poorly in this country, but that’s because of the language barrier.

    If Whites were legally allowed to pursue their own clan-based economic strategies, then Indians would be pushed out quickly. The strength of Indians is that they’re legally allowed to engage in rampant nepotism (mostly in IT/software), but it’s illegal for Whites (except Jews) to do the same.

    Since the 60s, Jews have been working very hard to ban any type of Anglo-Saxon White nepotism. At this point, even Irish and Italian ethnic networks are mostly being illegal these days. At the same time, it’s Jewish lawyers and tech execs who’ve pushed the door wide open for the H-1b flood. For whatever reason, these “pro-diversity” Jews seem to have no problem with Indian nepotism in software.

    I agree there are a fair number of smart, educated, and hyper competitive Indians out there. However, the reason for the huge number of Indian migrants pouring in post-2000 is because they have strong ethnic networks. If Whites were able to establish their own networks again, then Indians would be locked out of lucrative niches and basically get screwed.

    As for the East Asians, if they were capable of speaking intelligible English, they probably would’ve taken over more economic niches in Western countries. However, East Asians are very good at stealing intellectual property, then taking it back to their homelands. So even if the Chinese can’t take over Silicon Valley, they’ve acquired enough American-developed technical know-how to build their own Silicon Valley at home, which has lifted a huge number of Chinese (both white-collar and blue-collar) into the middle-class.

    As much as Indian migrants are displacing middle-class Whites, China and the other East Asian countries are doing the same thing at a much larger scale. If the job situation ever gets really bad, Indian H-1bs can be deported. The situation could be fixed, if the political will was there. On the other hand, the Asian theft of American IP can never be fixed. That IP is gone forever. With the IP gone, it’s likely that China will likely supersede America in the coming years.

  120. @jbwilson24

    5) Indians are also very very fond of insurance fraud. Ask anyone who works at an insurance agency.

    If you look up cases involving large-scale defrauding of govt welfare programs (Medicare, Medicaid, EBT), you’ll see that immigrant entrepreneurs (doctors, pharmacists, or convenience store owners) are exceptionally over represented. Lots of Subcons, East&Southeast Asians, Middle Easterners, Cubans, South Americans, Africans, Eastern Euros.

    A non-trivial number of American Jews too.

    As a general rule, immigrant businessman are often very shady. They do everything in their power to evade taxes and regulations, while maximizing what they can take from the govt. Subcons might be a bit more dangerous, as they are well-educated and speak fluent English. That hugely advantages them over less-educated Meztizo contractors or non-English speaking Asians.

  121. anonymous[411] • Disclaimer says:
    @res

    I should provide more background. The user I am referring to is rec1man. He has estimated current and future Indian IQ a number of times. This is an old post because I can’t find his more recent posts. https://www.unz.com/isteve/indias-average-iq-in-2100/

    Current IQ

    Southern Brahmin, 1% @ 120 IQ
    Northern Brahmin, 4% @ 115 IQ
    Southern Merchant, 3% @ 110 IQ
    Northern Merchant, 12% @ 105 IQ
    Southern Peasant, 8% @ 93 IQ
    Northern Peasant, 32% @ 88 IQ
    Muslim, 15% @ 75 iQ
    Southern Dalit, 5% @ 75 IQ
    Northern Dalit, 20% @ 75IQ

    Future Indian IQ

    Southern Brahmin, 1% @ 125 IQ
    Northern Brahmin, 4% @ 120 IQ
    Southern Merchant, 3% @ 115 IQ
    Northern Merchant, 12% @ 110 IQ
    Southern Peasant, 8% @ 100 IQ
    Northern Peasant, 32% @ 95 IQ
    Muslim, 15% @ 85 iQ
    Southern Dalit, 5% @ 85 IQ
    Northern Dalit, 20% @ 80IQ

    The gap between Dalit and upper castes looks absurd. He comes to conclusions based on analyzing selective samples like the California student national merit scholar list. The methodology is flawed because he ignores more nationally representative data like the Civil Service Exam probably because he doesn’t like the results. I don’t know if the average IQ of India can be derived from the CSE results, but I believe it is useful for estimating the structure of Indian IQ by caste. Even though the top 100 is dominated by the General category (largely upper caste), there are several candidates from backwards castes scoring in the top 100. That’s evidence to me the wide gap estimated by rec1man is off.

    • Replies: @res
    , @AnotherDad
  122. anonymous[411] • Disclaimer says:
    @PPG

    If we are to take the twice born concept as the definition of upper caste, then roughly what range of Indian Americans are upper caste? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvija

    For reference about one in eight people in India are upper caste according to the definition.

  123. @Whiskey

    “White people in America are like Jews in Germany. In 1932.”

    Yes, if the Democrats win this election.

  124. Ano4 says:
    @Malla

    Thank you for your thoughtful comment. I agree on all points.

    [MORE]

    The primary endogenous population of the Jambudipasi were of Dravidian stock. Given the early age of human colonization of the Indian subcontinent, these populations were already genetically diverse, but phenotypically closely related to the modern Tamil and Australasian populations.

    The Vedic Aryan invaders were of the same ancestry as the modern Slav people. Both trace their roots to Corded Ware Culture of Central Europe. After being displaced from the Central Europe by the haplogroup R1b Bell Beaker ancestors of the modern day Western European people, some of these Corded Ware groups moved North East reaching Southern Siberia after a thousand years of slow diffusion and hybridization with other local populations all along the territories of modern day Russia. Then they displaced the mainly R1b Central Asian Afanasievo Culture populations of Yamna ancestry, the mainly Y haplogroup O Siberian populations of Okunevo Culture and formed the Andronovo Culture of Indo-Iranian speaking Aryans in Sintashta Arkaim.

    From there they migrated South conquering the Bactriana Margiana Civilization where they became Avestan Aryans and later Iranian Medes/ Persians, while another group branches into the Indian Subcontinent where they became Vedic Indians after the demise of the Dravidian Indus Civilization. In fact, the Zoroastrian tradition demonstrates that the Vedic Aryans and the Avestan Aryans split on religious grounds and had a major conflict. Those Indo-Iranian nomads who stayed behind in Central Asia became Scythian and kept the closest to their traditional cultural and belief systems. They later controlled a vast territory between modern day Western Tibet and Romania. They invaded again Northern India two thousand years later under Kanishka. At the end the Scythian ended-up assimilated into the Turks.

    The Varna system was from the beginning and is still today ensuring the domination of the Brahmin priestly elites. The Buddhism was a Kshatryia and Vaishya varna belief system that built an inclusive anticaste belief system on the earlier Shramanic foundation it shared with Jainism (a mainly Vaishya belief system). Siddhartha Gauthama and Jaina Mahavira are both fine examples of Indian Genius.

    Both Buddhadharma and Jaina Dharma weakened the Vedic narrative and degraded the power of Brahmins. Both these universalist Religions contributed tremendously to the creation of Indian Culture. Both were hated and despised by the Brahmin. And you are absolutely correct about Brahmanism being the primary reason for the destruction of Indian Buddhist civilization and sidelining the Jainism.

    It would be best for India to become once again a Great Shramanic Civilization with a strong emphasis on Ahimsa. If I was an Indian, I would ptobably convert to some Buddhist tradition, probably the Shrilankan Theravada which is culturally closer to the Indian Culture.

    • Replies: @Malla
  125. res says:
    @anonymous

    Thanks for the additional detail. You can find his comments at his commenter page.
    https://www.unz.com/comments/all/?commenterfilter=Rec1man
    Searching his comments for “iq” gives many hits and a number of exchanges with an anon I assume is you.

    Are you sure that the rankings you are giving are unadjusted for caste? My understanding is that the final ranking (your table) includes more than just the exam scores. That is why the “Marks secured by the last recommended Candidate” by caste seem so important. If you look at the not recommended link I gave it is clear that there are many from the General category scoring higher than people from other categories who were recommended.

    I agree that rec1man’s gaps seem very high. On the other hand, Lynn’s 4.7 point gap seemed low to me (which is why I was hoping someone had the paper to look at details).

    • Replies: @anonymous
  126. PPG says:

    The idea of Brahmins having 115-120 IQ is absurd. Maybe in a very local sample of wealthy technology workers in Silicon Valley, perhaps. But from India as a whole I would say Brahmin IQ is maybe 105, tops, maybe slightly higher in the South where Brahmins are fewer and more enriched for smarts. Although I’ve accomplished a lot academically (as have others in my family), there’s also many other family members who do little or are living off rental properties and the like. This is true for other Brahmin families I know as well. The overall level of achievement doesn’t suggest 115-120 IQ’s.

    For the country as a whole, I don’t doubt the published IQ estimates that are out there. The best confirmation of this was India’s ridiculous response to the Covid, putting in place a brutal lockdown for months on end in a country where millions of people live hand to mouth in shacks, no refrigerator, no pantry. No jobs = no food. And this was widely supported by the public, despite a total collapse of the economy and starvation of huge numbers of people. No other third world country where Covid was spreading took the same response. Long term, if education (25% population still illiterate) and nutrition are corrected for, that number would rise to somewhere between 85 and 90, IMO, Latin American levels.

    With regards to what constitutes upper caste above, the idea of “twice born” is a red herring. When people talk of upper caste in India, they mean Brahmin/Rajput/Kayastha. These three are a minority among immigrants to the U.S. and the UK. Most Indian immigrants in the U.S. belong to merchant/tradesmen/small farmer castes like Banias, Patels, Jatt, etc. These latter groups in some jurisdictions fall under the “General Category” and in others fall in the “Other Backward Caste” designation for quota benefits, though these are modern political constructs. Although in certain places they may have been quite prosperous and even powerful (e.g. there are many examples of even backward caste individuals throughout Indian history who amassed land, became feudal lords, and then started styling themselves as local “kings” of princely states), there’s no consensus on these latter groups being historically considered upper caste.

  127. @anonymous

    I should provide more background. The user I am referring to is rec1man.

    Anon411, if you’d indicated rec1man’s stuff was your target, then i’d have just nodded.

    “Absurd” doesn’t even cover it, “delusional” is more apt. His numbers wouldn’t even hold up for the very selective immigrants in the US. If what he said was true, we’d all be beating down the doors to get into the Indian Wakanda.

    Hard to say, but my much more reasonable guess–given centuries of reciting vedas, running the temple scams and doing various scribe, recorder, accounting duties for other rentier classes–is that the Brahmins do have an IQ modestly above the white mean. Optimistically, maybe 105? (And more like white verbal/math pattern, rather than Chinese pattern.)

    And the basic failure of India society to achieve much is due precisely to Hinduism and the caste system–locked in feudalism and inability to move to one-people nationhood and eugenic gene flow down the class ladder.

    ~~~

    I will say that from my–very limited–experience in India, there is cause to for hope about lower caste IQs.

    I had the chance to work with some “underprivileged” public (US sense) school kids. I remember a girl “Sumita” who was very competent in 5th grade level math and seemed “bright”. When i asked what her dad did–“coolie”. On the other hand there were a couple of other girls–whose mother was a maid–and they seemed to basically be illiterate and pretty dense. I looked at the algebra homework of a backward caste girl–“Anita”–and it was clear, correct, well ordered. A bar a lot of suburban white kids do not meet. She clearly, if not actually “smart”, could at least do American “college level” work. I heard a year or two later, she was sent back to her village to marry her uncle.

    My friends from college or work who’ve gone back to India tell me that now their maids and drivers are making sure their kids go to decent English medium schools.

    India is very unlike the West. It is a place were there really is direct–absolute–nutritional stunting. And on top of that absolutely incredible inequality in resources, education and of course culture. But all those things are getting better. The last time i was there–years ago now–the people looked much better off than my first visit in the 90s.

    My guess is that absent stunting, the actual Indian IQ is something more like 90. Not very sharp, but years and years of selection under “hydraulic despotism” along with some genetic “trickle down” from smarter castes has raised the typical Indian peasant’s genetic endowment well above the level of typical African. It’s a matter of India actually making–even bothering to make!–an effort to make sure that endowment is realized.

    But then this race is going against the dysgenic trends–sub-replacement middle class fertility, selective out-migration, larger muslim, lower caste and rural fertility. So despite improvement, i wouldn’t bet on India.

    • Replies: @anonymous
  128. anon[644] • Disclaimer says:

    Ok, time for this.

  129. anonymous[376] • Disclaimer says:
    @res

    I am not clear about the General category. From Wikipedia, the entry says 18% of the population is General. Another source says it is 30%. That seems more likely to me. If it is 30%, then the General category includes many more groups than the upper caste. Around one in eight people in India are upper caste according to the twice born definition. https://medium.com/@ShivamShankarS/the-10-reservation-the-largest-scam-on-general-category-indians-94718f22a813

    According to estimates, 20% of the Indian population belongs to the Scheduled Caste; 9% belongs to the Scheduled Tribe; and 41% belongs to the Other Backward Classes category. This means that about 70% of the population belongs to a currently reserved category while 30% falls in the general category.

    As noted by another commentator the cutoff from the CSE results is around #500 out of about 1,000 spots. People from the General category are not ranked below #500. A cutoff at 50% is consistent with the system, which reserves about 50% of the seats for non-General category candidates.

    The reservation available in educational institutions and government jobs for the 70% population belonging to the reserved categories is at 49.5% due to the court orders, and the system maintains fairness by allowing those from the reserved categories to get seats from the general category if they meet the cut offs.

    Another issue to consider with the CSE is a fraction of the score is based on a personality test with a panel of interviewers asking general knowledge and current events questions. Low caste candidates have accused the panel of bias in scoring. If there is bias, it may be by design. The non-General candidates do not need to earn high marks to get their choice of elite civil service job because of quotas so interviewers could decide to spare room for the General candidates by pushing down the personality test scores of other candidates.

  130. Dissident says:
    @Peterike

    Yeah and how are those Jewish “values” working out for legacy white Americans?

    Jewish could have been placed in quotation marks as well. Neither hostility toward legacy white Americans nor promotion of policies that are detrimental to them (such as mass immigration, outsourcing of jobs, affirmative action, etc.) are values of authentic Judaism. It should not be confused with the perversions, misapprehensions and misapplications thereof that are typically invoked by officious prominent Jews who are overwhelmingly not only irreligious but also appallingly ignorant of the religion of their forefathers.

    I remain appalled at how prevalent, brazen and “respectable” hostility toward whites (esp. non-cosmopolitan, male, traditionalist, Christian) has become. As an American Jew, I feel a deep sense of gratitude for the exceptional kindness of a mostly white, mostly Christian U.S.

  131. anonymous[376] • Disclaimer says:
    @AnotherDad

    Among groups with IQs significantly lower than 100, Indians are notable for middle class family values, work ethic, and desire for self improvement. Many immigrants to the UK from India are Punjabis. Few of them are high caste individuals but they do well and are a middle class group in the UK. The great thing about a first world country is as long as there aren’t single mothers and the parents work at least 40 hours a week, eventually a family becomes middle class.

  132. Malla says:
    @Ano4

    Thanks I agree with you completely.
    One more point, Gautam Buddha was himself of Scythian (Saca) stock. Maybe mixed with Kirata Mongoloid of Nepal/Himalayas upto some extent. He had blue eyes and he was called Sackyamuni (Hermit of the Scythians). According to researchers, it seems the arrival of Scythians (Sacas) to the Indian subcontinent began much earlier than previously though, maybe as old as 800 B.C.
    Most Scythians became warrior Kshatriyas under the Brahmins and they married into the Indian population and got assimilated. The warrior Rajputs are of Scythian origin and what is strange is that the Scythian descended Rajputs (along with the Brahmins) played a big part in destroying Buddhism in India, a religion started by Buddha who himself was of Scythian descent!!

    • Agree: Ano4
    • Replies: @Ano4
  133. Malla says:
    @Black-hole creator

    Yes but the Aryans and Dravidians/Mogoloid Kiratas/ Tribals etc… eventually intermixed before the caste system became more rigid. Indian subcontinent is like Brazil/Mexico with the ancestors of Slavs/Balts playing the role of the Spaniards/Portuguese/Europeans and the Indus valley Dravidians and dark Australoid Tribals playing the role of Native Americans and black Africans. So upper caste Hindus are not pure Aryan/Slavs/Nords but a mixed people but with more Central Asian Aryan ancestry as compared to the tribal in the forest in South India who also has some Central Asian Aryan ancestry but has far less of it.

    Aryan Migration: Who are our ancestors, really?

    Sensitivity Over Aryan Migration Due To 2 Misconceptions, Says ‘Early Indians’ Author | The Quint

    Where did People of India and Other Parts of South, Central Asia Come From?

    • Agree: Ano4
    • Replies: @Malla
  134. Kapoor says:

    Most amusing to see commenters here take aim at Indians and Jews in the West.

    As a third-generation Indian living in the West, caste doesn’t even cross my mind, or that of the generation above me. The article itself made that pretty clear. I’ve been neither disadvantaged on account of being a non-Brahmin nor advantaged on account of being in a ‘higher’ caste than some other folks.

    My Jewish girlfriend and I laugh at people who weave conspiracy theories about Jews and now, increasingly, Indians. Sorry, but we HinJews are here to stay.

    • LOL: Ano4
  135. Malla says:
    @Malla

    es but the Aryans and Dravidians/Mogoloid Kiratas/ Tribals etc… eventually intermixed before the caste system became more rigid. Indian subcontinent is like Brazil/Mexico….

    original Aryans migrated to India long-long time ago and set up their caste system with the Dravidians relegated to lower castes.

    Basically the early “Apartheid South Africa Aryan-Dravidian/tribal India” eventually became a “Brazil mixed India” and ironically the caste system in the new “Brazil India” was far far more ruthless than the earlier system.

  136. Ano4 says:
    @Malla

    I was aware of the possible connection between the Sakas and the Shakyas. Both ethnonymes seem to have a similar proto-Indo-Iranian origin.

    [MORE]

    In fact the Andronovo tribes were already proto-Scythian. Scythians are the most primitive tribal populations that were later to evolve into Vedic Aryans and Avestan Aryans.

    Scythian culture covered a very large area from the Altai to the Pontic plains. The earliest typical Scythian haplogroup R1a Z93 in Europe has been found in the Tripolyan Cucuteni cultural context, where the use of the Swastika also probably originated. The same haplogroup is found very early in the Tarim mummies in Xinjiang. In Altai the Pazyrik Scythians demonstrate an increasing Mongoloid admixture probably from the intermarriage with Okunevo culture female populations or a similar Altaic/Siberian genetic component. Interestingly enough, the analysis of the wild type silk found in the Pazyrik tombs, leads to the conclusion that they had trade connections going all the way to the Indian subcontinent, despite the Pazyrik sacred cemetery being located on the modern border between Russia and Mongolia.

    Therefore, by the time of Gautama Buddha the Sakas/Scythians/Shakyas might have indeed reached the modern day Northern India. Of course given their warlike nature, the Scythian nomad herders would be included among the Kshatrya Varna, as were the Buddha’s ancestors.

    Of note, Scythians are not directly ancestors of the modern day Slavs, they are on a lateral branch of the same Y haplogroup R1a. Scythians haplogroups are today mainly found in Central Asia and the Indian subcontinent

    This being said, in Russian to awaken is Budit’, knowledge is znanye, the ferry used to cross a river is parom, the path through marshes is gat’, oneself is sam and to cross or get to the other side is pereyti.

    So when I read in the Hrdaya Prajnaparamita Sutra: Gati, gati, paragati, parasamgati, Boddhi, Swaha, I don’t need to understand Sanskrit to get a grasp on the basic idea.

    • Replies: @Malla
    , @Malla
  137. Malla says:
    @Ano4

    This being said, in Russian to awaken is Budit’, knowledge is znanye, the ferry used to cross a river is parom, the path through marshes is gat’, oneself is sam and to cross or get to the other side is pereyti.

    So when I read in the Hrdaya Prajnaparamita Sutra: Gati, gati, paragati, parasamgati, Boddhi, Swaha, I don’t need to understand Sanskrit to get a grasp on the basic idea.

    Interesting Similarities. If I am not mistaken, in Russian snow is Zima while in Sanskrit it is Hima and hence Himalayas-abode of Snow.

    Also for more on Buddha being Scythian check this out

    https://thaimangoes.blogspot.com/2009/08/h9.html
    WAS BUDDHA A SCYTHIAN?

    Also this site on Zoroastrianism speaks of strange connections in between our Aryan cultures.

    The shining Twin Yima, Vedic Yama and Old Norse Ymir
    https://authenticgathazoroastrianism.org/2014/12/10/the-shining-twin-yima-vedic-yama-and-old-norse-ymir/

    “Yima is a primordial twin and a hero king of the Ice Age in the Avesta. The very name Yima means “twin” and is related to Latin Gemini. The twofold nature of Yima is well attested in the Avesta. Yima’s account has parallels in both Vedic Yama and Old Norse Ymir. However, the Avestan Yima has preserved all the elements of the primordial twin being of the Proto-Indo-European cosmological mythology.”
    ………………………………

    Frya or love in the gathas, Old Norse Freya and Frigg
    https://authenticgathazoroastrianism.org/2017/03/06/frya-or-love-in-the-gathas-old-norse-freya-and-frigg/

    “In the poetic gathas, fryá is the personification of “love.” Intense feeling of passion/love appears as fryá, fryái and fryö in the sacred poetry of the gathas. Fryán “lovely, free” appears as a personal name in Yasna 46.12, 2nd rhymed verse line of the gathic songs.

    Avestan fryá “lovely, dear and free” is cognate with the reconstructed Proto Germanic friyō “Lovely,” Old Norse frī “beloved,” and Old Norse Frigg, “the wife of Odin/Woden,” and Vedic priyá.

    Modern Persian áfrin “blessing, divine favor” is derived from the same ancient root. The English weekday Friday is named after Norse goddess Frigg, and Old High German Frîja, who was the northern equivalent of Venus. In Rig Veda 1.46.1, the beautiful Dawn goddess is called priyá.

    Freya’s Tears by Gustav Klimt, the most prominent Austrian symbolist painter, has best expressed the immortal beauty and love of Freyja in art.

    In Norse Mythology frigg is the goddess of love. Frigg bore Baldur the personification of light whose death will initiate a series of apocalyptic events leading to Ragnarök or twilight of the Gods.”………….

    The god-force of waters ahúrání and the Norse sea-god ægir
    https://authenticgathazoroastrianism.org/2014/10/28/the-god-force-of-waters-ahurani-and-the-norse-sea-god-aegir/

    “The Avestan term for water is apö, compare apö with Lithuanian term for river uppe, Vedic ap and Latin aqua.

    In the Zoroastrian calendar the eighth month is dedicated to Waters.The tenth day of every Zoroastrian month is also dedicated to the Waters, and so the tenth day of the eighth month, Ábán Rooz (day of waters) of Ábán Máh (month or moon of waters), is the great feast day of waters called Ābānagān.”

    …snip…

    “In Yasna Haptaŋ-háiti or the Seven Chapters (Yasna 38.3) the Waters are venerated as ahúrání. The name Ahúrání is derived from Ahúrá (god-force, Old Norse æsir) with a feminine suffix –ání. (Compare with, tištryaæiní- “stars near the star Tištrya”)

    So the waters as “Ahúrá (Old Norse æsir) or god force’s female, nurturing aspect (ahúrání) are parallel to Old Norse sea god Ægir and the varuṇānī of Varuṇa in the Rig Veda. (Also compare the Gothic word for waters, rivers “ahua”)”

    https://authenticgathazoroastrianism.org/2014/02/10/vohu-mano-passion-spiritmind-and-the-old-norse-vili-and-ve/

    “To create, manifest through the power of an awe-inspiring, wondrous spirit/mind.

    Khratü, Vedic kratú is the power of spirit/mind to manifest itself, the power to create and to do work. It is the “Geisteskraft.” khratü comes from the Proto Indo European base kar-/ker “to have power, bring forth, create.” Greek kratia “have power over, Old English cræft , Dutch kracht, German Kraft, Icelandic kraftur, Old Norse kraptr all come from the same root and mean originally “having power to create, bring forth, manifest. It appears in the form of khrapat in Yasna 40.1.”

  138. Malla says:
    @Ano4

    Also
    Michael Witzel notes that in Vedic texts associated with the eastern Ganges plain, none of the various tribes that populate the Pāli texts are found. The Sakya, Malla, Vajji, Licchavi, Naya, Kālāma, Buli, Moriya and Vesali are all missing from the Brāhmana and Āranyaka texts. By contrast, Pānini knows the Mallas and the Vrjis as tribes of the Panjab and Rajasthan respectively. Some of the Mallas must have remained behind, as Alexander’s ambassadors met people called “Malloi” (Witzel 1997: 310). Witzel reasons that these tribes must have arrived in India and migrated eastwards in the space between the composition of the late Vedic texts and the lifetime of the Buddha, i.e. between about 1000 and 500 BCE (Witzel 1997: 312).
    The fact that the Śākyas are not mentioned until the Buddhist period may be explained in other ways. They may have been indigenous to the area though this raises the question of where they got an Indic-language name, since the indigenous people most likely spoke an Austro-Asiatic language. They may have been an early wave of the Indic-speaking peoples. However, these explanations don’t explain how the Śākyas came into contact with ideas such as dividing the person into body, speech and mind for moral purposes, which is so very like the Zoroastrian idea.
    Witzel’s time frame for the migration of non-Vedic tribes eastwards is still very broad, but we can narrow it down. Asko Parpola (2002) has independently put forward a very similar hypothesis. Parpola is concerned with the Pāndavas,. and by combining archaeological and textual evidence he comes to the conclusion that a group of Iranians, generically called Pāndu or ‘pale’, entered India around 800BCE via the Indus Valley. Some of the Pāndus went north to become the Pāndavas of the Mahābhārata, but the main part of Parpola’s argument has the Pāndus continuing to migrate southwards down the west coast and eventually .becoming the first Indo-European speakers in Sri Lanka (Parpola 2002: 362–4). A possible weakness of this argument is that Sinhalese is usually considered an Indic rather than an Iranian language. However, Parpola suggests that the Pāndavas “quickly adopted the earlier local culture and language”, and we assume the proto Sinhalese Pāndu did the same. Here we might compare the Pāndavas with the .
    10th century Norse migrants to Normandy, who rapidly adopted French language and customs. Furthermore, the Pāndavas’ newly-won positions were “legitimised with fabricated genealogies that made them a branch of the earlier ruling family” (Parpola 2002:370).
    Making something of an intuitive leap, Parpola adds: “Another successful group was the family to which the Buddha belonged: the Śākyas, too were Pāndus, ultimately of Śaka origin, as their name reveals” (Parpola 2002: 370). Parpola’s date of ca. 800 BCE for the beginning of this migration is well within Witzel’s time frame.
    As it happens, climate scientists have proposed that an abrupt climate shift “towards increased humidity caused by a decline of solar activity” allowed for a dramatic expansion of Scythian culture around 850 BCE (van Geel et al. 2004a, 2004b; also Chambers et al. 2007). The shift probably happened rapidly, within perhaps a decade, and also led to “a dryness crisis” caused by weak monsoon intensity in north-west India after 850 BCE (van Geel et al. 2004b). Van Geel et al.
    also note that “aridity forced people to shift from sedentism to sheep/goat pastoralism” (van Geel et al. 2004b: 276), while Gupta et al. suggest that changes in crops grown would also result from climate change and may explain the use of millet, lentils, chick peas etc. (Gupta et al. 2006: 1086). At the same time, Megalithic people were moving from South India into the Deccan with iron and
    horses, and “they were probably responsible for the end of the Chalcolithic culture in this region” (van Geel et al. 2004b: 276). Asko Parpola, however, sees the megaliths of South India as a product of the Pāndus moving south (Parpola 2002: 362).
    Another possible vein of evidence is suggested by Thomas Hopkins’s claim (in Samuel 2008) that the Central Ganges culture had similarities to the Malwa culture. The Malwa were one of several Chalcolithic societies which flourished in the Northern Deccan, Maharashtra and Gujarat during the second millennium BCE. A feature of these cultures is that they, like the Indus Civilisation, ceased relatively abruptly. “A drastic change in the climate occurred around 1000 B.C.,
    when increasing aridity set in. This probably led to desertion of the vast majority of Chalcolithic settlements” (Dhavalikar 1984: 155). The final desertion occurred around 700 BCE. It may be that the more recent and precise date of 850 BCE applies here as well, and that the collapse of Chalcolithic cultures in the Deccan mirrors the conditions faced by the Mallas, Vrji and Śākyas.
    The 9th century BCE change in climate also corresponds roughly with the change from bronze to iron. It also corresponds to the compilation of the Rgveda into a collection (Deshpande 1979: 240). Climate change data which can be accurate to within decades may be an increasingly useful tool in establishing the chronology of ancient Indian cultural changes. The date of 850 BCE for this abrupt
    change fits the date proposed by Parpola, and this in turn lends support to Witzel’s conjecture. Whether or not the Śakas were really Pāndus, as Parpola suggests, we could at least imagine that a sharp reduction in monsoon intensity, combined with pressure from outside India in the form of vigorous and expanding tribes of steppe nomads, may have caused the migrations of the Mallas and Vrjis that are reasonably well attested.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    , @Malla
  139. Ano4 says:
    @Malla

    Amazingly interesting!

    Thanks.

    It does make sense.

    Do you have any further readings on this topic?

    I suggest reading E.E. Kuzmina.

    https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/339377?journalCode=ca

    http://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2016/06/the-andronovo-cradle-of-indo-iranian.html?m=1

    Although see a very interesting thorough critique of the Aryans from Central Asia thesis here:

    http://indiafacts.org/a-vedic-aryan-homeland-in-the-steppes-a-critique-of-the-kurgan-hypothesis/

    • Replies: @Malla
  140. Malla says:
    @Ano4

    Thanks for the links.

    Do you have any further readings on this topic?

    You could try reading Michael Witzel’s & Asko Parpola’s original research papers on this topic, lots more details.

    I suggest reading E.E. Kuzmina.

    Yes, I have heard of E.E. Kuzima as an important researcher on this subject.

    There is a video by Hiroshi Hayashi but it is in Japanese. Maybe he has some English material.

    Buddhas Father was Scythian=SAKA Theory and its Evidence ブッダの父親はスキタイト人(=サカ)であった、その証拠と

    Also

    http://rajputana.htmlplanet.com/scy_raj/scy_raj1.html

    Scythic Origin of the Rajput Race by Mulchand Chauhan

    “About the time when the Roman Empire was collapsing, the northwestern and western parts of India were under the control of Scythic empires. Indeed, many of the tribes active in the disturbances following the fall of Rome appear as rulers in western India. At the peak of its power, the Scythic or Saka kingdoms stretched from the Vindhyas to the Oxus, from Persia to Bihar. They played a significant role for several centuries in Indian history. These mainly Sun-worshipping and Zoroastrian kingdoms eventually collapsed as a result of Brahmanisation, with the once-glorious Saka dynasties being crushed under the Brahmin yoke. Brahmanisation led to the destruction of the Scythic heritage of these peoples, and their nastik (non-Vedic) Sun-worshipping religions were submerged in the sea of Brahmanism.”

  141. Malla says:
    @Malla

    Also

    https://www.dailyo.in/politics/mallikarjun-kharge-aryans-vedic-age-dravidians-scythians-saka-east-india-company-adivasis-hindu-muslim/story/1/7636.html

    “The advent of Islam into India is only a visible marker, for peoples who migrated earlier and even just before the Islamic conquests were also of similar stock. For instance, that great Rajput clan, the Sisodias are of Scythian origin and historians derive their name from Sassanian. Just as Jat derives from Gatae, Ahir from Avar, Gujar from Khazar, Thakur from Tukharian. The Scythian or Saka tribes were the last pre-Islamic migrants into India. Some entered the plains through the Bolan Pass, and settled in Rajasthan which is why some Rajput, Gujar and Jat clans such as Pawar, Chauhan, Rathi, Sial and others now claim descent from there, whereas others like Mann, Gill, Bajwa, Bhullar, Sandhu and others who came through the Khyber Pass claim descent from Afghanistan.”

    Also more similarities in between the Aryan religions

    More similarities in between the Aryan religions

    Avestan Druj “distortion, devastation, lie,” Old Persian Drauga, and Old Norse Draugr
    https://authenticgathazoroastrianism.org/2016/08/22/avestan-druj-distortion-devastation-lie-old-persian-drauga-and-old-norse-draugr/

    “Drûj represents “distortion, devastation and torment.” It is the adversary of the cosmic order, and the foundation of Mazdean dualism, in the dual confrontation between “cosmic order/truth” ašá/arthá and “distortion, lie” drûj.

    Drûj is attested 18 times in the poetic gathas. It comes once in the form of drûḵš and 18 times as drûj. The adjective term dreg.váv and/or dreg.vant in the gathas, is a derivation and means “follower/partisan of drûj, a deceiver, distorter, trickster!”

    Avestan drûj is a cognate of Vedic druh “devastation, afflicting demon,” Proto Germanic draugaz “distortion, lie,” Icelandic drɑuɣr̩ “ghost, vampire,” Old Norse draugr “shadow, phantom,” German Trug “fraud, deception,” and Persian dorūġ “lie.”

    In Norse mythology, draugr are undead figures that wreak havoc on living beings. Draugr carry the unmistakable stench of decay, have the appearance of a dead body, are swollen, blackened and hideous to look at. The Old Norse account of draugr is very much reminiscent of the Avestan nasü drûj “decay/lie within a necro/nasü or dead matter, corpse,” mentioned so often in the Avestan purity texts!”

    The ancient Zoroastrian Mid-Spring festival, Celtic Beltane and the German Witches’ Night Hexennacht,
    https://authenticgathazoroastrianism.org/2018/05/08/the-ancient-zoroastrian-mid-spring-festival-celtic-beltane-and-the-german-witches-night-hexennacht/

    Avestan payan “milk” is a cognate of with Lithuanian pienas, Latvian piêns, Vedic páyas “milk,” Vedic pipyúši “rich in milk” and is derived from reconstructed Proto Indo European *pieh “be fat, prosperous, swollen,” and *pipih usih “rich, overflowing in milk.”

    …snip….

    “Zarem, the second part of maiδyö.zarem comes from Avestan zairi “fresh green, lush or golden” and can be compared with Old Church Slavonic zelenū, Lithuanian geltas, želvas “yellow/golden,” Latvian zęlts “golden,” Russian zelënyj “green.” In post Indo European times, the word for golden/yellow were often the sources for new words for green. This root is recorded from Celtic to Vedic, and is assured in Proto- Indo European. This also argues that the Proto Indo Europeans saw yellow/golden as a primary color.”

    Ayáthrimá, the last autumnal thanksgiving festival and Celtic Samhain
    https://authenticgathazoroastrianism.org/2011/10/17/ayathrima-the-last-autumnal-thanksgiving-festival-and-celtic-samhain/

    Ayáthrimá is a time when the autumn harvest is reaped, cattle are bred, and the preparation for winter begins. This festival has a lot in common with the Celtic festival of Samhain on October 30th.In fact, almost all Zoroastrian and Celtic festivals are apart by about 2 weeks and bear striking resemblance.

    • Thanks: Ano4
    • Replies: @Ano4
  142. Ano4 says:
    @Malla

    In Russian there are many hundreds of cognates to Sanskrit languages. The lists are available on the internet. Lithuanian is perhaps more archaic in its purest form than Russian is. There are clearly major similarities between the Avestan and Germanic languages. Some of these seem having an opposite meaning in Slavic and or Sanskrit as compared to Avestan and Germanic/Norse. A few examples:

    [MORE]

    Aesir = Ahura = higher spirit / god in Norse and Avestan but Ashura = warlike demon in Sanskrit.

    Deva = God or higher spirit in Sanskrit = Divo = miracle in Russian but Div = demon in Avestan Persian and Kurd

    Druzh = enemy in Avestan =Draugr in Old Norse but Drug = friend in Russian with Druzhba = friendship.

    Of note, In Russian an enemy is Vrag = vrka / vruk = volf in Sanskrit = vargr in Old Norse. Wolves are of course the enemies of the nomadic steppe herders. Modern day Bashkirs are called that way because the Tatar considered them as enemies and named them “descendants of wolves ” it happens that the Tatar are enriched in haplogroup R1a, while the Bashkirs are enriched in haplogroup R1b.

    One possible explanation would be the R1a versus R1b haplogroup split in PIE / PII populations. Afanasievo people derived from Yamnaya and were R1b, Andronovo people of Arkaim Sintashta/ Petrovka were R1a. Afanasievo migrated to Central Asia first, Andronovo came later. Andronovo replaced Afanasievo. Ancient Iranians and their Iranian, Ossetian, Kurdish descendants seem having more haplogroup R1b as compared to Scythians, Indian “Aryan ” castes and Balto-Slavic people who were R1a. Also Scythians were mainly R1a, while Sarmatians were mainly R1b, Sarmatians conquered Scythians in the Pontic plains and put an end to their domination. According to Tacitus, Sarmatians spoke a corrupted form of Scythian, and Germans spoke a language that had some similarities to Sarmatian.

    Perhaps the R1b people and R1a people have lived through ages of conflict resulting into an antagonistic use of some important words that were common in their respective dialects.

    The region where the ancient R1a / R1b split would have occurred might well be Xinjiang with the Uighur having a balanced proportion of both R1a and R1b on top of the typical Mongoloid Y haplogroups they share with Han Chinese and other Extreme Oriental populations.

    And yes there clearly existed an Ancient Indo-European religious tradition that was present in variable but compatible forms from the Atlantic to the Indian Ocean. It was destroyed by the Abrahamic religions. The last to hold onto this religion in Europe were the Rani Wends (Balto-Slavic people) from Arkona on the island of Rugen.

    https://www.britannica.com/topic/Arkona

    Their higher God was Sviato Vid = Holy / Fair / Luminous Seer with Svet = Light in Russian and Vidit’ = to see / view.

    Some of the priests of Arkona tasked with divination according to the movement of branches in the holy groves of oak trees were called Drev Vids or Tree Seers with Drevo = tree in Slavic and Vidit’ = to see / view. Of course one can easily recognize the Celtic Druids in Balto-Slav Drev Vids.

    • Thanks: Malla
  143. Unmoglich says:

    While all black complaints are treated with skepticism all intra ethnic claims are played up. I have spent 22 years in Silicon Valley. I have never even heard of this type of discrimination before. The Valley is mostly technocratic.

    In any case Indian Engineering schools are extremely difficult to get in. MIT/Stanford/Caltech are far easier. Thus only the most motivated get into them and they tend to come from the poor and starving class. There are educational charities that exclusively focus on getting the extremely poor into top tier engineering schools (a review of the Dakshana Foundation website and annual reports would shed considerable light on this). I very much doubt Brahmins are the ones getting into these top tier schools. In any case in the top 33 cities in India this is not an issue though it probably is in rural and extremely rural areas (much like racism in America is in rural and the South)

    I suggest skepticism when you see a story supporting your ideology.

  144. Every time there’s an India related article there is so much confusion in the comments. Maybe someone should start an India focused HBD/alt right blog…?

  145. EdwardM says:
    @JMcG

    This 40% figure on PIA (known locally as Perhaps I’ll Arrive) is hilarious. It shows me two things, beyond the total corruption of Paki society:

    — They sure discovered this quickly. Makes me think that they have know about all of the fake credentials for some time.

    — Although PIA has a poor safety record relative to other airlines, its planes don’t crash that often. (Wikipedia says four fatal crashes in the last 30 years, not including terrorist incidents.) I guess it’s not that hard to fly a plane, license or no.

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