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Harvard Crimson: Miasma Theory of White Supremacy
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Back in February I wrote in “The Miasma Theory of White Racism:”

Scientific-minded dissidents frequently compare today’s orthodoxy that the cause of whatever ails blacks is—and, indeed, must be—white racism to discarded scientific constructs such as phlogiston in chemistry and aether in physics. But the most informative comparison might be to the long, unfortunate hold of the miasma theory of disease on medical thought.

In 2021, the conventional wisdom is that while you almost never see white racism, it’s always out there somewhere, everywhere, ruining the lives of blacks, lowering their test scores and raising their murder rates. It’s as if white people implicitly exude a poison from their pores that harms only blacks, due to their being genetically different, although, as everyone also knows, genetic differences, like race, don’t exist. C’mon, man, follow the science!

Normally, I try not to have fun at the expense of high school students (except for that hedge fund manager’s insufferable son who got into Stanford by writing “Black Lives Matter” 100 times. Him, I couldn’t resist) and usually not at the expense of college students either. But, then again, Harvard students, especially Crimson writers …

From the Harvard Crimson opinion section …

A Pre-Med Letter of Resignation, With (Self) Love & Liberation

By Kyla ***, Crimson Opinion Writer

OK, I’ll leave out her name because she’s just a kid.

But, other than no mention of hair-touching, this is the Platonic essence of black women’s op-eds during the Great Awokening.

This is The One.

To students, teachers, peers, and the Harvard community: This is my official farewell to the pre-medical track here at Harvard. I hope it finds you well.

While this isn’t just another story about the toxicity of pre-med culture, getting weeded out, or leaving my academic path for some earth-shattering love of another aspiration, it is a story of how white supremacy lives and breathes in each of our bodies, spreading between each of us — body to body — like contagion. It is a story of trying to mitigate chronic pain to create the possibility for genuine healing and recovery. A story of a great act of resistance: a Black woman choosing herself.

I took an inorganic chemistry exam the same day that a grand jury failed to charge two police officers with the murder of Breonna Taylor.

The “same day” isn’t necessarily the same as “before.”

That day, my body inhaled molecules of white supremacy as they seeped out of my computer from that proctored Zoom room. They entered my bloodstream and catalyzed a metabolism that would allow for the invasion of my body by a violently infectious life form. A chronic pain, caused by the perpetuation of lethally unjust practices and compounded by the silence and avoidance between myself and my educators when it comes to Black women’s lives, would make its way through and onto neighboring cells within my physical being. The presence of the germ of white supremacy would cause a steric hindrance within me, slowing down and even preventing the reactions of learning and healing that I desperately needed for myself and from others in that moment. The exam began, and I haven’t been able to show up mentally or emotionally in a science class since.

When white supremacy invades the bodies of those of us who dare to be Black, female, and breathing, it reproduces as a crippling affliction that accompanies us everywhere — physically, psychologically, and spiritually. The weeks I had spent preparing for that exam could never amount to the time and energy I have spent mourning Breonna Taylor. The time I would spend understanding electrons and balancing reactions would never amount to the years I have spent watching those whose skin was saturated with melanin like mine lose their lives. I held study sessions for myself alongside silent prayer recitations for the justice I knew would probably never come. And still, I showed up to my exam — in all my Black womanness — despite the heartache that would be ignored, unseen, and unacknowledged.

I could have asked to take that inorganic chemistry exam another day, but it would have required me to release my breath to plead for the need to catch it. I could have put my racial trauma on display to beg professors, teaching fellows, and preceptors to consider a Black woman’s funeral worthy of an excused absence, but I couldn’t bear the harrowing reality that I was mourning while white America was not.

Clearly, she is a reticent introvert who doesn’t like to parade her emotions in public.

In the months to come, the symptoms of the infection of white supremacy — transmitted across bodies from professor to pupil, peer to peer, educators to learners — in the pre-med academic space sent me into a prolonged battle with recurring pain as I struggled with trying to fight, while also trying to survive.

… Little did I realize that the most radical act of resistance would have been choosing my wellness and my health.

Thirteen months, two biology courses, one inorganic chemistry course, and half an organic chemistry course later, the germ of white supremacy still shows up in my body every time I enter the Science Center C lecture hall or its Zoom room equivalent. Written between my answers on every problem set and at the point of my pencil on every exam are the physical and psychological wounds marking my agonizing pain as it spreads through my body, agitating my brain and cramping the muscle that is my heart.

But no more. I have chosen a path to justice and healing that is rooted in self-love and preservation. For Black women, self-care is an act of liberation. It disrupts systems of power — even at places like Harvard — that hold a stake in patriarchy and institutionalized racism. …

How long until demands for Mandatory Free Spa Days for Black Women become a thing?

 
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  1. half an organic chemistry course later

    Ha, ha, ha. Organic chemistry is the bane of many would-be pre-med students. “Orgo” is THE weed-out course for pre-meds and, so, it is “racist,” by which it is meant that, yes, it’s tough on low IQ wannabe pre-meds.

    • Agree: Rich, PaceLaw
    • Replies: @Ralph L
    @Twinkie

    At my college, it was Inorganic Analysis (second quarter of chem) that weeded out the pre-meds who couldn't do math. Most people's first few test grades were so bad, you could get half the missed points back on a redo. The Organic class was much smaller.

    Hundreds, perhaps thousands, of patients can be thankful this woman will not be a doctor.

    Replies: @Dan, @Paleo Liberal

    , @22pp22
    @Twinkie

    I am surprised. Organic chemistry's wildly boring and memory intensive, but it is not that hard. It's a bit learning kanji. Physical chemistry is usually the killer paper.

    If she flunked out on organic chemistry then she must be REALLY weak.

    Replies: @Magic Dirt Resident, @Alfa158, @SimpleSong

    , @Alec Leamas (hard at work)
    @Twinkie


    Ha, ha, ha. Organic chemistry is the bane of many would-be pre-med students. “Orgo” is THE weed-out course for pre-meds and, so, it is “racist,” by which it is meant that, yes, it’s tough on low IQ wannabe pre-meds.
     
    As an aside and outside of the context of diversifying the medical profession through affirmative action, I think we should reexamine whether courses like organic chemistry are necessary prerequisites to the study of medicine or whether they are simply barriers to entry into the medical profession which serve existing physicians insofar as they keep the supply of new doctors artificially small. If they are necessary, then obviously the should be kept. If not, perhaps they should be discarded.

    It's generally accepted that the United States needs more medical doctors, and that the cost of medical care is in large part driven by physician compensation.

    In my informal poll of physicians with whom I am acquainted, when I ask them to state how necessary/useful organic chemistry is in their practice of medicine not one has said to me that it is something that they rely upon in the practice of medicine. Thus, I lean towards "artificial barrier to entry."

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Seneca44, @MarkinLA, @Black Athena

    , @Getaclue
    @Twinkie

    No worries -- very soon that half a day of Chemistry and the color of her skin will get her that MD Degree, nothing else required...very soon -- AMA is all for it....

    , @Black Athena
    @Twinkie


    Ha, ha, ha. Organic chemistry is the bane of many would-be pre-med students. “Orgo” is THE weed-out course for pre-meds and, so, it is “racist,” by which it is meant that, yes, it’s tough on low IQ wannabe pre-meds.
     
    Hahaha indeed. The joke is on you. What the hell does mastering organic chemistry have to do with becoming a good doctor? If a "weed-out" course is even needed why should it be some useless subject from a century ago? Why not a 21st century subject that modern doctors actually need to know about, such as genetics, bio-engineering and AI?

    What Medical Schools do need is a "weed-out" interview that effectively weeds out autistic, narrow-minded nerds who lack the love and warmth that should be pre-requisites to becoming a Physician.

    We all have seen recently how alt-Right sites such as 4-chan and 8-chan have spawned thousands of racist and misogynistic STEM-nerd psychopaths spreading their dangerous hatreds like a deadly civilization-destroying virus. Would you like such doctors operating on you today given the current racial politics?

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon, @Twinkie

  2. “Clearly, she is a reticent introvert who doesn’t like to parade her emotions in public.”

    Indeed. “Better out than in”. &c

    Thanks for the first laugh of the day.

    • Agree: mc23
  3. “Self-care (instead of effort)”, the Harvard university’s Crimson writer states as a proximate goal instead of acquiring knowledge or at least a marketable skill:
    Who pays for this checking out of life, the necessary contributions to the community one is living in, perhaps only living with? Mother Nature doesn’t like takers-only very much, and so it may be expected that any stab at self-realization paid for by others may end quite unhappily.
    Intelligence manifests itself quite strongly in the ability to think about the consequences of actions. So, what kind of people pose as ‘university students’ these days?

  4. TLDR: I am too dumb to be a premed so I quit.

    • Replies: @James N. Kennett
    @Mike_from_SGV


    TLDR: I am too dumb to be a premed so I quit.
     
    "The white men at Harvard recruited me even though they knew I was too dumb to be a premed. I couldn't pass the exams, and so I will jump before I am pushed. I blame white supremacy, patriarchy, and institutionalized racism. I am an expert in chemistry and I know that white supremacy is a molecule."

    This is the rage of a person whom Affirmative Action has promoted to a school where she is always bottom of the class.
    , @El Dato
    @Mike_from_SGV

    but it's your fault.

  5. “That day my body inhaled molecules of white supremacy as they seeped out of my computer from that proctored Zoom room. They entered my bloodstream and catalyzed a metabolism for the invasion of my body by a violently infectious life form. A chronic pain…would make its way through and onto neighboring cells within my physical being.”

    If that’s how she thinks people get infected, maybe it’s best for all concerned if she doesn’t become a doctor.

    (Like Twinkie above, I also noticed “half a course of organic chemistry.” She tells us everything but her grades in the requisite pre-med courses, but with “half a course,” we can guess orgo wasn’t her best subject. It’s been the ruin of many a poor pre-med…)

    • Replies: @fish
    @Gary in Gramercy

    I guess the weekend at the college didn't turn out like she planned......


    Apologies to Steely Dan.

    Replies: @Obstinate Cymric

  6. …a story of how white supremacy lives and breathes in each of our bodies, spreading between…

    For just a moment there, she had my attention.

  7. So, like, you got a ‘D’ on the O-Chem midterm, right?

    • Agree: James N. Kennett
    • Replies: @Eternally Antifascist
    @Veracitor

    Several commentators here have missed a key point, that actually even more highlights the basic lack of comprehension of any science by the putative author.

    Several lines of her inarticulate missive whine mightily about performing on the exam in inorganic chemistry. And she "describes" either some of the questions, or some of the answers to questions, in a completely inarticulate manner. Why? Because she writes a lot about steric hindrance regarding inorganic chemistry reactions.

    Steric hindrance is a common phenomenon in organic chemistry because some parts of one molecule cannot get close enough to parts of another molecule in order to initiate and complete a chemical reaction. Hence, hindrance to a chemical reaction because of stereo (or 3D) chemistry. If I recall my statistical mechanics correctly, most inorganic chemical reactions are driven by the increase in enthalpy from comparing the enthalpy of the reactants to the enthalpy of the final products of the potential chemical reaction. It is not likely that steric hindrance can be a factor in determining whether or not a chemical reaction proceeds because in most inorganic reactions the reacting molecules are not that large, at least compare to organic compounds massing more than a thousand Daltons.

    And I too dropped out of organic chemistry, but not because I was a pre-med student. Rather, I was a physics major who produced some respectable work in low energy nuclear physics. Organic was just TOO MUCH memorization for me!

  8. But no more. I have chosen a path to justice and healing that is rooted in self-love and preservation.

    In other words, I switch my major to African American Studies.

    • Agree: Polistra, Jus' Sayin'...
    • Replies: @AndrewR
    @Jack D

    More like self-indulgence. But it's all good. What if she managed to actually get her medical license? Imagine her receptionist calling all her patients every other day and saying "Sorry, Dr. Shaniqua can't see you today. She is taking a mental health day because of some event that happened a thousand miles away, in a place she wouldn't have gone in a thousand years, involving people she has never met. Does next Tuesday work for you?"

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

    , @Bardon Kaldian
    @Jack D

    Recommended:

    https://aaas.fas.harvard.edu/files/aaas/files/aaas_logo.jpg?m=1591732126

    Replies: @slumber_j

    , @Abe
    @Jack D


    In other words, I switch my major to African American Studies.
     
    Good thing black girls who are affirmatively action’d into colleges and majors beyond their intellectual keen only to wash-out never subsequently go on to hold positions of great authority in our society. I mean, we’d never be so dumb as to put someone who is: a) not very smart to begin with, b) thinks they are way smarter than they actually are, c) has a huge chip on their shoulder from being intellectually humiliated at a young age, in charge of anything more consequential than a PTA bake sale committee, right? Western civilizations don’t shoot themselves in the feet, do they?

    https://famousnews.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/ecff45ae7677bc8d395df094bb783213-300x150.png

    Replies: @Art Deco

    , @Alec Leamas (hard at work)
    @Jack D


    In other words, I switch my major to African American Studies.
     
    Coming from Harvard/Yale/Princeton/Stanford it could be as or more remunerative and a lot less labor intensive for an above-average IQ black woman to work her way into the private sector diversity bureaucracy than to struggle through a course of undergraduate scientific study, medical school, and internship, etc.

    These people can create and maintain well paid fiefdoms in corporate America without having to do much of anything - they're just insurance against corporate cancellation even if internal hostage-takers within the corporations that employ them. If you're a doctor and not good at it, your patients can be maimed and killed and you will get blame that even melanin privilege can't fully excuse. Whereas if you're a diversity bureaucrat, the only thing you can kill is the nation itself by assisting a proportionate share in its suicide.
  9. I realize you’re old as sin, and this girl presumably cannot legally buy alcohol in Massachusetts, but this is an ADULT at the most prestigious university in the US. And any of us could do a five second google search and see her name on the Crimson website, if you hadn’t already linked to her pathetic letter.

    Granted, she’s a female and she’s black, two groups not well-known for theur self-awareness, but I doubt she will have any more self-awareness in ten or thirty years, so there is absolutely no reason to censor her name. She wanted to “speak her truth” so why not let her? On the infinitesimal chance that she actually ends up regretting this humiliating self-own in the future, well, them’s the breaks. Smarter, better people than her have done stupider things than this. Or at least I assume so. Admittedly I’ve never written anything this stupid and submitted it for publication.

    • Agree: Rich
    • Replies: @meretricious
    @AndrewR

    it's written by a HARVARD student--Sailer's point has nothing to do with hair. He's letting his readers know how dumb blacks are that are admitted to Harvard.

    , @Anonymous
    @AndrewR

    I'd prefer he went the other way and didn't even link this yellow-Crimson journalism from his own post. Save a cached copy, sure, but anybody else who wants to find it, can find it, using a minimal 20th Century-era citation (and not a counter-bitchy blind item either, but "X newspaper/site, on Y date, page/section Z" worked really well for a long time).

    Why give these prestigious traffic-grubbers the oxygen of robot clicks? This isn't 2003 any more when Blogspot.com was just getting off the ground.

  10. Poor girl! Must be painful to find oneself in Harvard within a body and a mind evolved to survive in tropical rainforest.

    • Thanks: P. Cleburne
  11. @Jack D

    But no more. I have chosen a path to justice and healing that is rooted in self-love and preservation.
     
    In other words, I switch my major to African American Studies.

    Replies: @AndrewR, @Bardon Kaldian, @Abe, @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    More like self-indulgence. But it’s all good. What if she managed to actually get her medical license? Imagine her receptionist calling all her patients every other day and saying “Sorry, Dr. Shaniqua can’t see you today. She is taking a mental health day because of some event that happened a thousand miles away, in a place she wouldn’t have gone in a thousand years, involving people she has never met. Does next Tuesday work for you?”

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @AndrewR

    Heh, your cancer screening would take a back seat to her performative mourning.



    With (Self) Love & Liberation
     

     


    I have chosen a path to justice and healing that is rooted in self-love
     

     
    I didn't think I was old, but I'm old enough to remember when self-love was not considered a virtue, certainly not something that you would boast about in public.

    Replies: @Expletive Deleted, @FPD72

  12. @Twinkie

    half an organic chemistry course later
     
    Ha, ha, ha. Organic chemistry is the bane of many would-be pre-med students. "Orgo" is THE weed-out course for pre-meds and, so, it is "racist," by which it is meant that, yes, it's tough on low IQ wannabe pre-meds.

    Replies: @Ralph L, @22pp22, @Alec Leamas (hard at work), @Getaclue, @Black Athena

    At my college, it was Inorganic Analysis (second quarter of chem) that weeded out the pre-meds who couldn’t do math. Most people’s first few test grades were so bad, you could get half the missed points back on a redo. The Organic class was much smaller.

    Hundreds, perhaps thousands, of patients can be thankful this woman will not be a doctor.

    • Thanks: Joseph Doaks
    • Replies: @Dan
    @Ralph L

    Except the AMA has gone totally woke, so your doctor in ten years , if black, got into medical school with test scores and GPA a standard deviation lower than her white classmates.

    , @Paleo Liberal
    @Ralph L

    From what I have seen:

    I went to grad school in a pre-med factory.

    First semester freshman year, 500+ students took freshman chemistry. True, that included some physics and bio students, as well as some real chem majors.

    First semester sophomore year, 200+ students took organic chemistry.

    Quite a few more would be weeded out during Organic Chem.

    About 80 would still be pre-meds at the end.

    Then it gets even tougher.



    Many students who survived the process simply don’t take the MCAT exam, at least for a while, because due practice tests tell them they won’t do well. The practice tests always over estimate how the students do.

    For those who actually take the exam, the average MCAT score is designed to be 500, which isn’t good enough to get into med school. So many don’t apply, maybe spend another year studying until they can get a better score.

    For those who apply, the mean MCAT is about 506.

    Fewer than half of the applicants get in. The mean MCAT for students who actually attend med school is about 512 1/2, which varies by ethnic group.

    About 97% of the students who get in actually graduate. They get the best residencies. That is about 2/3 of the open positions. The DOs take it to about 3/4 of the open positions. The other 25% are either Americans who went to Caribbean med schools or foreign MDs who want to live in the US.

    People on med school admissions committees say they have to reject the overwhelming majority of qualified applicants.

    The open borders folks tell us this is why we need more
    Immigrants. Because they say it is better to have immigrant doctors than highly qualified Americans who couldn’t get into med school because American med schools train far fewer doctors than the country needs.

    Replies: @2BR

  13. @AndrewR
    @Jack D

    More like self-indulgence. But it's all good. What if she managed to actually get her medical license? Imagine her receptionist calling all her patients every other day and saying "Sorry, Dr. Shaniqua can't see you today. She is taking a mental health day because of some event that happened a thousand miles away, in a place she wouldn't have gone in a thousand years, involving people she has never met. Does next Tuesday work for you?"

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

    Heh, your cancer screening would take a back seat to her performative mourning.

    With (Self) Love & Liberation

    I have chosen a path to justice and healing that is rooted in self-love

    I didn’t think I was old, but I’m old enough to remember when self-love was not considered a virtue, certainly not something that you would boast about in public.

    • Replies: @Expletive Deleted
    @Almost Missouri

    It gave you hairy palms and destroyed your eyesight.
    The !Science! is settled.

    , @FPD72
    @Almost Missouri


    I didn’t think I was old, but I’m old enough to remember when self-love was not considered a virtue, certainly not something that you would boast about in public.
     
    Not since Whitney Houston sang that learning to love yourself was the greatest love of all, although I don’t think that she had self-pleasuring in mind.

    Of course, many Evangelical preachers climbed aboard the self-love express, twisting Jesus’ instruction to love your neighbor as yourself into a command to love yourself, forgetting Paul’s specific condemnation of those who were lovers of self.
  14. @Twinkie

    half an organic chemistry course later
     
    Ha, ha, ha. Organic chemistry is the bane of many would-be pre-med students. "Orgo" is THE weed-out course for pre-meds and, so, it is "racist," by which it is meant that, yes, it's tough on low IQ wannabe pre-meds.

    Replies: @Ralph L, @22pp22, @Alec Leamas (hard at work), @Getaclue, @Black Athena

    I am surprised. Organic chemistry’s wildly boring and memory intensive, but it is not that hard. It’s a bit learning kanji. Physical chemistry is usually the killer paper.

    If she flunked out on organic chemistry then she must be REALLY weak.

    • Agree: fish
    • Replies: @Magic Dirt Resident
    @22pp22

    Most pre-meds don't have to take physical chem; only chem majors and sometimes physics majors do. I agree that o chem is more memory intensive than it is hard, but to be fair, med school has a lot of memorizing terminology, too.

    , @Alfa158
    @22pp22

    Organic chemistry is the only class I ever took where I fell asleep during a lecture. Where I went to school it was a requirement for the Physics program. As if the material wasn’t already tedious enough, the lecturer had the energy and presence of a mannikin and would just stand there droning through the material in a low monotone, never looking at the class.
    Thankfully I’ve long forgotten everything I ever learned in the class.

    , @SimpleSong
    @22pp22

    For better or for worse, the fact that Organic chemistry is wildly boring and memory intensive is the reason it became intertwined with medical school admissions. Most of the stuff you learn in medical school is crushingly boring and memory intensive: for this pathogen, use this antibiotics as first line, for cardiac arrest, give these drugs in sequence, etc., etc. There aren't really any big concepts. In most fields there would be an expectation that you would just look this stuff up at your leisure but because many things in medicine are highly time sensitive there is still a premium on memorization.

    Replies: @stillCARealist

  15. Whites exude a miasma that hurts blacks? No way this is a prelude to genocide. The road from that to “cut down the white trees” is no winding road. It looks more like a four-lane highway with no exits.

    Premed must be an especially difficult reality for people who are not smart but are smart for a black person, to handle. Most high school education is not designed to weed people out. Teachers, being liberals, will push through most any black who looks like she (almost always she) is trying and seems to care about education. But once she gets to organic chemistry, and not only does the handholding stop, but the profs are trying to get less capable people to quit. I am somewhat gladdened by this essay, as it shows that there are intelligence standards that even blacks must meet to get into med school and at Harvard, no less.

    [MORE]

    I get that pre-med is tough. But it should be. Once upon a time, it did not matter who became a doctor, because medicine was worthless. Christian science spread because not getting medical “care” was healthier than receiving it. Homeopathic remedies were more effective than medicine. How can water be better medicine for any condition besides dehydration? Because the “medicines” were harmful.

    But that has changed. Thanks to the efforts of rational people, almost entirely white men, though women like Florence Nightingale show that ability shone through cishet white patriarchy — if there had been blacks capable of contributing, then their contributions would have been welcome — doctors are no longer scientists, people who formulate hypotheses and perform experiments. Today doctors are technicians, performing practical applications of science. The best are engineers, designing new applications from theory.

    Today, a good doctor is better than a bad doctor. A little more than a century ago, this was not the case. Tomorrow’s situation is so sad. Because doctors have prestige, society will contrive to have people who are bad doctors wearing white coats. You see, they will be black bodies in white coats.

    Maybe damage will be mitigated. To paraphrase another commenter, some doctors design innovative treatments, and others manage cholesterol. Nevertheless, so much is lost when precious spots in medical school which could be filled by people who will advance science, who will create treatments that make medicine even better are instead filled by people whose careers will consist of looking at a number, looking at the healthy range printed next to it, and saying, “your cholesterol is high. Let’s use simvastatin 10 mg to try to get it down.”

    Especially with the coming downsizing of education, which is unavoidable. It needs to be done because so many people who are not educable are being pushed through. Also, because the educational professions have thrown all in with one political party, eventually the other political party will catch wise and punish them. It would be a shame if dumbs are kept in while capable people are excluded, just so college can look like America.

    • Agree: ic1000
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Rob

    Well, just plan to not get sick in the future.


    https://time.com/6105532/foreign-trained-doctors/

    An Innovative Washington Law Aims to Get Foreign-Trained Doctors Back in Hospitals

    BY TARA LAW

    OCTOBER 11, 2021

    Growing up in Somalia’s capital of Mogadishu, where people sometimes die of preventable or treatable illnesses like diarrhea, typhoid and malaria, taught Abdifitah Mohamed…

    But Mohamed hasn’t been able to work as a doctor since 2015, when he left for the United States, where his wife emigrated in 2007… after spending thousands of dollars to apply to 150 residency programs, none of them would give him a chance…

    Now, a new program in Washington state, where Mohamed lives, could soon put him back to work. In May, Washington governor Jay Inslee signed a law granting internationally-trained medical graduates the opportunity to obtain two-year medical licenses to work as doctors, with the possibility of renewal…

    Experts say the program could serve as a model for other states to launch their own similar efforts…

    International medical graduates have long struggled to obtain U.S. medical licenses, but the current political moment could lead to lasting changes, says Jeanne Batalova, a senior policy analyst at the Migration Policy Institute…

    For Abdifitah Mohamed, watching how severely the pandemic has hit immigrants, people of color, and essential workers has only sharpened his sense of urgency to go back to work.

    https://time.com/6105532/foreign-trained-doctors/
     

    AMA? Hello, AMA, are you there? Come in AMA…

    Replies: @Rob McX, @Paleo Liberal

    , @Rich
    @Rob

    Unfortunately, medicine still hasn't progressed all that far. The 3rd leading cause of death in the US is medical malpractice according to a study from Johns Hopkins Medical School.

    , @anon
    @Rob


    Premed must be an especially difficult reality for people who are not smart but are smart for a black person, to handle.
     
    That's true of any and all STEM majors in any college due to academic mismatch brought on by affirmative action. AA causes colleges to admit blacks who score above 95th percentile SAT for blacks, but are only at about maybe 80 percentile for whites and Asians. So instead of going to a college where they could be in the 95th percentile of the entire student body and be successful at STEM or pre-med, they go for prestige and end up another bitter African American studies major, because of keen competition.

    Hence the need for the Diversity Industrial Complex, so these Harvard/Stanford grads with their useless grievance studies degrees can still go on to be Chief Diversity Officer of Fortune 500 companies.

  16. I must also point out that “miasma” theory gets a bad rap. While most illnesses are caused by infections, not toxins, the infectious agents usually spread through a medium, such as air, water, or food, and not directly from person to person.

    As agnostic says, it is interesting that bat coronaviruses, long evolved for spreading through the stagnant air in caves infected bats to new hosts, can cross over to spread from infected people to uninfected people through the stagnant air in modern buildings.

    [MORE]

    In retrospect, it is flabbergasting that the medical establishment thought that respiratory infections spread directly from one person to someone they were interacting with face to face or through droplets on surfaces. Surely we remember the media telling us to wash our hands frequently and to use high-alcohol hand sanitizer to beat the coronavirus. This was when Fauci was going on air to tell us that “there is no evidence that masks prevent infections.” Also, they told us that we needed to save masks for medical personnel, for whom, apparently, masks suddenly worked. It is hard to believe that this was the common belief, so we should work hard at remembering it.
    The psychology of “I can avoid getting a cold by sanitizing my hands” dovetailed with building owners wanting to save money by reducing air turnover in buildings to the extent that people ignored common sense that the most efficient way for a respiratory infection to spread is through the very air we breathe.

    I can see new buildings being designed so that fresh/sterilized air comes in near the floor and is pulled nearly straight up to be heated/cooled/(de)humidified and sterilized for recirculation. Expect to see ceiling fans pulling air up to ceiling vents make a comeback.

    Indeed, the demand curve for office space has almost certainly shifted down (I believe economists call this shifted to the right) such that at any given price, less is demanded than before the pandemic, rentiers will be forced to upgrade buildings for air sanitation. “Atmospheric Sanitation” might be a good consulting gig in the coming years.

    How about an Atlantic article about The Plan to Stop Every Respiratory Virus at Once

    Does anyone remember DanHessinMD? He does not comment on iSteve anymore, but he went on and on about humidity being an effective environmental preventative for respiratory viruses. I asked him once I’d he was “Dan Hessin, MD” or “Dan Hess in MD.” He did not answer, but Hessin is an extremely rare family name, but Hess is fairly common, so I’m going with the latter. Regardless of credentials, he could be right. Perhaps post-COVID research will vindicate his humidity as panacea ideology. Certainly humidifying air would likely be the cheapest retrofit.

    • Replies: @ic1000
    @Rob

    Re: commenter DanHessinMD -- at some point he clarified it was location, not physician. His case for humidity being an effective NPI for Covid came with references, and they checked out. Here's a thread from March 16, 2020 for anybody who's interested. (Click on "DanHessinMD" in #24 to activate unz.com's search engine, then scroll through his comments.)

    Replies: @Rob

    , @Ralph L
    @Rob

    I've gotten only two colds in more than thirty years when I have a humidifier running at home when the furnace is on. I used to always get one when the weather turned cold. But I have very fragile skin--can't wear synthetics and blister easily--I started it to prevent nose and gum bleeds overnight.

  17. She ought to switch her major to this:

    https://tdm.fas.harvard.edu/course-list

    She’s pretty well versed in drama, melodrama, and pathos. Should be easy for her.

  18. @Almost Missouri
    @AndrewR

    Heh, your cancer screening would take a back seat to her performative mourning.



    With (Self) Love & Liberation
     

     


    I have chosen a path to justice and healing that is rooted in self-love
     

     
    I didn't think I was old, but I'm old enough to remember when self-love was not considered a virtue, certainly not something that you would boast about in public.

    Replies: @Expletive Deleted, @FPD72

    It gave you hairy palms and destroyed your eyesight.
    The !Science! is settled.

  19. She’s the daughter of Herbert and Charmaine Golding of New Rochelle, NY. Both parents West Indian. Mother works in IT. Sisters include Shanel and Tiffani.

    Spin the roulette wheel and wager her problem is narcissism derived from years of people assiduously lying to her about her performance and skills. Instead of enrolling at one of the local schools and studying clinical laboratory sciences or pharmacy (NB, her mother is a graduate of Baruch College, CUNY), she enrolls at Harvard hoping to study medicine.

    There are photos of her circulating around. Whatever she’s actually like, she prefers to present herself as someone expressive and loud.

    • Replies: @AceDeuce
    @Art Deco

    Interesting. Not surprising. West Indian and African-born groids are often regarded as "better" than homegrown groids, but they are not. More superficially pleasant, sometimes. Or not. But basically they are all the same.

    A nypical tigger is a nypical tigger.

  20. @Jack D

    But no more. I have chosen a path to justice and healing that is rooted in self-love and preservation.
     
    In other words, I switch my major to African American Studies.

    Replies: @AndrewR, @Bardon Kaldian, @Abe, @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    Recommended:

    • Replies: @slumber_j
    @Bardon Kaldian

    There she can study with e.g. Henry Louis Gates, Jr., whose endowed chair is (still!) named for perennial iSteve content generator and disgraced swindler Alphonse "Buddy" Fletcher. From Wikipedia:


    In 2004, Fletcher created the Alphonse Fletcher University Professor Fellowship program to financially support professors working to improve race relations at Harvard.[3][27] Funded as part of the Fletcher Foundation, Henry Louis Gates Jr. is the Alphonse Fletcher University Professor at Harvard.[28][29]
     
  21. @Art Deco
    She's the daughter of Herbert and Charmaine Golding of New Rochelle, NY. Both parents West Indian. Mother works in IT. Sisters include Shanel and Tiffani.

    Spin the roulette wheel and wager her problem is narcissism derived from years of people assiduously lying to her about her performance and skills. Instead of enrolling at one of the local schools and studying clinical laboratory sciences or pharmacy (NB, her mother is a graduate of Baruch College, CUNY), she enrolls at Harvard hoping to study medicine.

    There are photos of her circulating around. Whatever she's actually like, she prefers to present herself as someone expressive and loud.

    Replies: @AceDeuce

    Interesting. Not surprising. West Indian and African-born groids are often regarded as “better” than homegrown groids, but they are not. More superficially pleasant, sometimes. Or not. But basically they are all the same.

    A nypical tigger is a nypical tigger.

  22. In a sane system, weed courses are not viewed as cruel, but beneficial to everyone involved. It’s just a specific instance of hard truths inaccurately labeled hurtful.

  23. Anonymous[607] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rob
    Whites exude a miasma that hurts blacks? No way this is a prelude to genocide. The road from that to “cut down the white trees” is no winding road. It looks more like a four-lane highway with no exits.

    Premed must be an especially difficult reality for people who are not smart but are smart for a black person, to handle. Most high school education is not designed to weed people out. Teachers, being liberals, will push through most any black who looks like she (almost always she) is trying and seems to care about education. But once she gets to organic chemistry, and not only does the handholding stop, but the profs are trying to get less capable people to quit. I am somewhat gladdened by this essay, as it shows that there are intelligence standards that even blacks must meet to get into med school and at Harvard, no less.

    I get that pre-med is tough. But it should be. Once upon a time, it did not matter who became a doctor, because medicine was worthless. Christian science spread because not getting medical “care” was healthier than receiving it. Homeopathic remedies were more effective than medicine. How can water be better medicine for any condition besides dehydration? Because the “medicines” were harmful.

    But that has changed. Thanks to the efforts of rational people, almost entirely white men, though women like Florence Nightingale show that ability shone through cishet white patriarchy — if there had been blacks capable of contributing, then their contributions would have been welcome — doctors are no longer scientists, people who formulate hypotheses and perform experiments. Today doctors are technicians, performing practical applications of science. The best are engineers, designing new applications from theory.

    Today, a good doctor is better than a bad doctor. A little more than a century ago, this was not the case. Tomorrow’s situation is so sad. Because doctors have prestige, society will contrive to have people who are bad doctors wearing white coats. You see, they will be black bodies in white coats.

    Maybe damage will be mitigated. To paraphrase another commenter, some doctors design innovative treatments, and others manage cholesterol. Nevertheless, so much is lost when precious spots in medical school which could be filled by people who will advance science, who will create treatments that make medicine even better are instead filled by people whose careers will consist of looking at a number, looking at the healthy range printed next to it, and saying, “your cholesterol is high. Let’s use simvastatin 10 mg to try to get it down.”

    Especially with the coming downsizing of education, which is unavoidable. It needs to be done because so many people who are not educable are being pushed through. Also, because the educational professions have thrown all in with one political party, eventually the other political party will catch wise and punish them. It would be a shame if dumbs are kept in while capable people are excluded, just so college can look like America.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Rich, @anon

    Well, just plan to not get sick in the future.

    https://time.com/6105532/foreign-trained-doctors/

    An Innovative Washington Law Aims to Get Foreign-Trained Doctors Back in Hospitals

    BY TARA LAW

    OCTOBER 11, 2021

    Growing up in Somalia’s capital of Mogadishu, where people sometimes die of preventable or treatable illnesses like diarrhea, typhoid and malaria, taught Abdifitah Mohamed…

    But Mohamed hasn’t been able to work as a doctor since 2015, when he left for the United States, where his wife emigrated in 2007… after spending thousands of dollars to apply to 150 residency programs, none of them would give him a chance…

    Now, a new program in Washington state, where Mohamed lives, could soon put him back to work. In May, Washington governor Jay Inslee signed a law granting internationally-trained medical graduates the opportunity to obtain two-year medical licenses to work as doctors, with the possibility of renewal…

    Experts say the program could serve as a model for other states to launch their own similar efforts…

    International medical graduates have long struggled to obtain U.S. medical licenses, but the current political moment could lead to lasting changes, says Jeanne Batalova, a senior policy analyst at the Migration Policy Institute…

    For Abdifitah Mohamed, watching how severely the pandemic has hit immigrants, people of color, and essential workers has only sharpened his sense of urgency to go back to work.

    https://time.com/6105532/foreign-trained-doctors/

    AMA? Hello, AMA, are you there? Come in AMA…

    • Replies: @Rob McX
    @Anonymous

    https://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2017/09/05/bad-medicine-the-sickening-truth-about-britains-foreign-doctorsbad-medicine-the-sickening-truth-about-britains-foreign-doctors/

    https://www.unz.com/article/bad-medicine-ii-the-escalating-problem-of-third-world-doctors/

    , @Paleo Liberal
    @Anonymous

    The best way to improve medical care in this country would be to increase the number of students in American med schools by at least 50%, perhaps more.

    Consider — 1/4 of residency positions are filled by MDs not educated in the US. This includes Americans who went to Caribbean med schools plus immigrants.

    Consider — people who are on med school admissions committees say they turn down many qualified applicants for each application they accept.

    Replies: @res

  24. @Ralph L
    @Twinkie

    At my college, it was Inorganic Analysis (second quarter of chem) that weeded out the pre-meds who couldn't do math. Most people's first few test grades were so bad, you could get half the missed points back on a redo. The Organic class was much smaller.

    Hundreds, perhaps thousands, of patients can be thankful this woman will not be a doctor.

    Replies: @Dan, @Paleo Liberal

    Except the AMA has gone totally woke, so your doctor in ten years , if black, got into medical school with test scores and GPA a standard deviation lower than her white classmates.

  25. She looks exactly like you think she does.

  26. At least this means there won’t be a Dr. Kyla *** using all those dirty medical gloves from Thailand.

    Nevertheless, our future looks terrifying. The present is pretty scary too.

    Oh, BTW, Steve writes that he normally doesn’t like to have fun at the expense of college students, and that with regard to Not to be Doctor Kyla *** :

    OK, I’ll leave out her name because she’s just a kid.

    No. College students are adults, and Kyla what’s-her-name just committed a massive blood libel.

    Release the hounds.

    • Replies: @Expletive Deleted
    @Buzz Mohawk

    I prefer that colorized versions of humanity protect themselves against (almighty God!) The White Plague by rigorously self-isolating.
    Can I get to wear one of those wild plague-doctor bird costumes? For their sake, naturally.

    , @Rich
    @Buzz Mohawk

    I probably grew up in a few neighborhoods tougher than most, but back when I was a kid, 16 was considered an adult because that's when you could be charged as an adult.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

  27. @Mike_from_SGV
    TLDR: I am too dumb to be a premed so I quit.

    Replies: @James N. Kennett, @El Dato

    TLDR: I am too dumb to be a premed so I quit.

    “The white men at Harvard recruited me even though they knew I was too dumb to be a premed. I couldn’t pass the exams, and so I will jump before I am pushed. I blame white supremacy, patriarchy, and institutionalized racism. I am an expert in chemistry and I know that white supremacy is a molecule.”

    This is the rage of a person whom Affirmative Action has promoted to a school where she is always bottom of the class.

  28. Oh dear God in Heaven, why can’t this tortured waif deal with her trials and tribulations by cutting or starving herself like the privileged White girls?

    • Replies: @Sick 'n Tired
    @The Alarmist

    "My teenage son has started cutting himself, he says it's because he wants to feel something. I say what's wrong with feeling nothing inside like the rest of us?" ~ Norm MacDonald

  29. To follow the medical theme, this woman is a symptom, not the disease.

    Who created this environment and supports it? Those are the people Steve should be talking about instead of this delusional foot soldier.

    • Agree: William Badwhite
  30. @Buzz Mohawk
    At least this means there won't be a Dr. Kyla *** using all those dirty medical gloves from Thailand.

    Nevertheless, our future looks terrifying. The present is pretty scary too.

    Oh, BTW, Steve writes that he normally doesn't like to have fun at the expense of college students, and that with regard to Not to be Doctor Kyla *** :

    OK, I’ll leave out her name because she’s just a kid.
     
    No. College students are adults, and Kyla what's-her-name just committed a massive blood libel.

    Release the hounds.

    Replies: @Expletive Deleted, @Rich

    I prefer that colorized versions of humanity protect themselves against (almighty God!) The White Plague by rigorously self-isolating.
    Can I get to wear one of those wild plague-doctor bird costumes? For their sake, naturally.

  31. @22pp22
    @Twinkie

    I am surprised. Organic chemistry's wildly boring and memory intensive, but it is not that hard. It's a bit learning kanji. Physical chemistry is usually the killer paper.

    If she flunked out on organic chemistry then she must be REALLY weak.

    Replies: @Magic Dirt Resident, @Alfa158, @SimpleSong

    Most pre-meds don’t have to take physical chem; only chem majors and sometimes physics majors do. I agree that o chem is more memory intensive than it is hard, but to be fair, med school has a lot of memorizing terminology, too.

  32. A story of a great act of resistance: a Black woman choosing herself.

    And still, I showed up to my exam — in all my Black womanness

    Wow. Someone make an epic history movie about this woman’s life.

    • LOL: Bumpkin
  33. I wish her the best of luck in her African-American studies degree!

    But seriously, could the current war on standardized tests move on to a war against screening courses like organic chemistry was for our author? Or is leading a proud black, trans, non-binary or whatever along for 3 years (and Lord knows how much debt) too cruel even for some activists? Perhaps they don’t know that such courses exist?

  34. But no more. I have chosen a path to justice and healing that is rooted in self-love and preservation.

    M’kay. What are you going to do for money?

    • Replies: @Anarchoproctologist
    @Gamecock

    Blaming whitey is very lucrative

    , @John Milton's Ghost
    @Gamecock

    Mau-mau'ing gullible fools is pretty lucrative. Ask Henry Rogers "Ibram X." Kendi.

  35. @Mike_from_SGV
    TLDR: I am too dumb to be a premed so I quit.

    Replies: @James N. Kennett, @El Dato

    but it’s your fault.

  36. Mismatch, with affirmative action slots being increased to accommodate the letter salad of “minorities, is only going to get worse.

    I don’t really care what happens to Kyla Goldings; she was given every advantage and failed. My concern is for the middle class white kid who worked their ass off, got the grades and honors, and whose dream was study medicine at Harvard, but never got the chance due to a lack of melanin.

  37. Of the 16 comments that the Crimson moderators approved, fourteen or so are unsympathetic, though few seem to have Harvard authors. ‘Karl’ was succinct:

    What a train wreck this article is. But a win for future patients.

    While at the Op-Ed, cntrl-F “GPA” –> Not Found.

    Just a bit lower than Allan Bakke’s and those of the Students For Fair Admission plaintiffs, I’ll wager.

    • Replies: @J1234
    @ic1000

    The letter reminds me of every farewell note in every hobby or politics forum I've been a member of. The writer is convinced that the readers - upon reading the letter - will be more hurt by the departure than the writer is, and they'll carry the emotional and moral scars to their graves. In fact, most will forget about it by lunch time (even those who are sympathetic.)

  38. Anonymous[126] • Disclaimer says:

    Thirteen months, two biology courses, one inorganic chemistry course, and half an organic chemistry course later

    Oh no, such unimaginable suffering! Alas, many other morons just soldier on, get into a medical school on a strength of their blackness and their incompetence ends up causing a lot of suffering in patients.

  39. Whoever wrote this has a real talent. However, claptrap like this message falls on deaf ears. Whine on, little lady, whine on.

  40. @Rob
    I must also point out that “miasma” theory gets a bad rap. While most illnesses are caused by infections, not toxins, the infectious agents usually spread through a medium, such as air, water, or food, and not directly from person to person.

    As agnostic says, it is interesting that bat coronaviruses, long evolved for spreading through the stagnant air in caves infected bats to new hosts, can cross over to spread from infected people to uninfected people through the stagnant air in modern buildings.

    In retrospect, it is flabbergasting that the medical establishment thought that respiratory infections spread directly from one person to someone they were interacting with face to face or through droplets on surfaces. Surely we remember the media telling us to wash our hands frequently and to use high-alcohol hand sanitizer to beat the coronavirus. This was when Fauci was going on air to tell us that “there is no evidence that masks prevent infections.” Also, they told us that we needed to save masks for medical personnel, for whom, apparently, masks suddenly worked. It is hard to believe that this was the common belief, so we should work hard at remembering it.
    The psychology of “I can avoid getting a cold by sanitizing my hands” dovetailed with building owners wanting to save money by reducing air turnover in buildings to the extent that people ignored common sense that the most efficient way for a respiratory infection to spread is through the very air we breathe.

    I can see new buildings being designed so that fresh/sterilized air comes in near the floor and is pulled nearly straight up to be heated/cooled/(de)humidified and sterilized for recirculation. Expect to see ceiling fans pulling air up to ceiling vents make a comeback.

    Indeed, the demand curve for office space has almost certainly shifted down (I believe economists call this shifted to the right) such that at any given price, less is demanded than before the pandemic, rentiers will be forced to upgrade buildings for air sanitation. “Atmospheric Sanitation” might be a good consulting gig in the coming years.

    How about an Atlantic article about The Plan to Stop Every Respiratory Virus at Once

    Does anyone remember DanHessinMD? He does not comment on iSteve anymore, but he went on and on about humidity being an effective environmental preventative for respiratory viruses. I asked him once I’d he was “Dan Hessin, MD” or “Dan Hess in MD.” He did not answer, but Hessin is an extremely rare family name, but Hess is fairly common, so I’m going with the latter. Regardless of credentials, he could be right. Perhaps post-COVID research will vindicate his humidity as panacea ideology. Certainly humidifying air would likely be the cheapest retrofit.

    Replies: @ic1000, @Ralph L

    Re: commenter DanHessinMD — at some point he clarified it was location, not physician. His case for humidity being an effective NPI for Covid came with references, and they checked out. Here’s a thread from March 16, 2020 for anybody who’s interested. (Click on “DanHessinMD” in #24 to activate unz.com’s search engine, then scroll through his comments.)

    • Replies: @Rob
    @ic1000

    I know he had pretty legitimate-seeming references, though i did not check them out. He should have chosen a screen nsme that did not seem to claim he’s a physician. I’m not saying he was intentionally dishonest, but that was the effect. Absolute humidity is low in the winter, but spring and fall are the cold & flu seasons, aren’t they?

    Personally, i hope he’s near-totally right and all we have to do to defeat respiratory viruses is This One Weird Trick of raising indoor humidity. It’d be a lot cheaper than massive HVAC changes, or even rebuilding the duct work to move air as close to vertically as possible.

    Maybe UV lights and humidifiers will be enough? My guess though, is we won’t large-scale building or retrofitting to fight respiratory diseases for at least twenty or thirty years. Science might not advance one funeral at a time, but i will bet that architects sre more non-politically conservative than scientists. Probably takes thirty years for a feature to go from newest thing to everyday installation.

    How long did indoor pumbing and air conditioning take from look-at-this-wow to pedestrian of-course-this-building-has-that-it’s-a-building-isn’t-it?

    But if the retrofit is as easy as a humidifier and UV lights, maybe we could have it in ten years?

    Anyone know the building trades well enough to comment?

    Replies: @Whitey Whiteman III, @Bumpkin, @Obstinate Cymric

  41. @Rob
    Whites exude a miasma that hurts blacks? No way this is a prelude to genocide. The road from that to “cut down the white trees” is no winding road. It looks more like a four-lane highway with no exits.

    Premed must be an especially difficult reality for people who are not smart but are smart for a black person, to handle. Most high school education is not designed to weed people out. Teachers, being liberals, will push through most any black who looks like she (almost always she) is trying and seems to care about education. But once she gets to organic chemistry, and not only does the handholding stop, but the profs are trying to get less capable people to quit. I am somewhat gladdened by this essay, as it shows that there are intelligence standards that even blacks must meet to get into med school and at Harvard, no less.

    I get that pre-med is tough. But it should be. Once upon a time, it did not matter who became a doctor, because medicine was worthless. Christian science spread because not getting medical “care” was healthier than receiving it. Homeopathic remedies were more effective than medicine. How can water be better medicine for any condition besides dehydration? Because the “medicines” were harmful.

    But that has changed. Thanks to the efforts of rational people, almost entirely white men, though women like Florence Nightingale show that ability shone through cishet white patriarchy — if there had been blacks capable of contributing, then their contributions would have been welcome — doctors are no longer scientists, people who formulate hypotheses and perform experiments. Today doctors are technicians, performing practical applications of science. The best are engineers, designing new applications from theory.

    Today, a good doctor is better than a bad doctor. A little more than a century ago, this was not the case. Tomorrow’s situation is so sad. Because doctors have prestige, society will contrive to have people who are bad doctors wearing white coats. You see, they will be black bodies in white coats.

    Maybe damage will be mitigated. To paraphrase another commenter, some doctors design innovative treatments, and others manage cholesterol. Nevertheless, so much is lost when precious spots in medical school which could be filled by people who will advance science, who will create treatments that make medicine even better are instead filled by people whose careers will consist of looking at a number, looking at the healthy range printed next to it, and saying, “your cholesterol is high. Let’s use simvastatin 10 mg to try to get it down.”

    Especially with the coming downsizing of education, which is unavoidable. It needs to be done because so many people who are not educable are being pushed through. Also, because the educational professions have thrown all in with one political party, eventually the other political party will catch wise and punish them. It would be a shame if dumbs are kept in while capable people are excluded, just so college can look like America.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Rich, @anon

    Unfortunately, medicine still hasn’t progressed all that far. The 3rd leading cause of death in the US is medical malpractice according to a study from Johns Hopkins Medical School.

  42. @Buzz Mohawk
    At least this means there won't be a Dr. Kyla *** using all those dirty medical gloves from Thailand.

    Nevertheless, our future looks terrifying. The present is pretty scary too.

    Oh, BTW, Steve writes that he normally doesn't like to have fun at the expense of college students, and that with regard to Not to be Doctor Kyla *** :

    OK, I’ll leave out her name because she’s just a kid.
     
    No. College students are adults, and Kyla what's-her-name just committed a massive blood libel.

    Release the hounds.

    Replies: @Expletive Deleted, @Rich

    I probably grew up in a few neighborhoods tougher than most, but back when I was a kid, 16 was considered an adult because that’s when you could be charged as an adult.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @Rich

    Yes. It was also the age of consent in may places. Our society has simply extended the length of childhood, emasculated its young men, and made blameless its young women accordingly.

  43. @Gary in Gramercy
    "That day my body inhaled molecules of white supremacy as they seeped out of my computer from that proctored Zoom room. They entered my bloodstream and catalyzed a metabolism for the invasion of my body by a violently infectious life form. A chronic pain...would make its way through and onto neighboring cells within my physical being."

    If that's how she thinks people get infected, maybe it's best for all concerned if she doesn't become a doctor.

    (Like Twinkie above, I also noticed "half a course of organic chemistry." She tells us everything but her grades in the requisite pre-med courses, but with "half a course," we can guess orgo wasn't her best subject. It's been the ruin of many a poor pre-med...)

    Replies: @fish

    I guess the weekend at the college didn’t turn out like she planned……

    Apologies to Steely Dan.

    • Replies: @Obstinate Cymric
    @fish

    "the weekend at the college didn’t turn out like she planned"

    "The things you do for pre-Med she can't understand".


    (Odd really, she's been telling me she was a genius since she was 17)

    Replies: @Father O'Hara

  44. “ it reproduces as a crippling affliction that accompanies us everywhere — physically, psychologically, and spiritually.”

    This affliction is otherwise universally known as “throwing a tantrum”.

  45. anonymous[290] • Disclaimer says:

    I’m going to offer an alternative interpretation here, where the protagonist of the Crimson article turly is the hero.

    The debunking of miasma theory is one of the first pieces of science history that’s taught in pre-med classes. Therefore, by providing a thoroughly debunked mechanism for the spread of white supremacy, the author is actually arguing that the contemporary understanding of white supremacy as a pervasive societal evil is, in fact, nothing more than a well-intentioned misconception dreamed up by epistemologically primitive minds.

    With this deft rhetorical stroke, wherein she both soothes the masses and appeals to the senses of the cogntivie elite, this “Kyla ***” (almost certainly a pseudonym) shows herself to be a champion of rational inquiry and, in doing so, reveals, in perhaps the only unintentional hand tip of the entire piece, her new career path:

    She’s obviously angling for Trump’s 2024 VP slot.

    Trump *** 2024
    Make America ??? Again

  46. @22pp22
    @Twinkie

    I am surprised. Organic chemistry's wildly boring and memory intensive, but it is not that hard. It's a bit learning kanji. Physical chemistry is usually the killer paper.

    If she flunked out on organic chemistry then she must be REALLY weak.

    Replies: @Magic Dirt Resident, @Alfa158, @SimpleSong

    Organic chemistry is the only class I ever took where I fell asleep during a lecture. Where I went to school it was a requirement for the Physics program. As if the material wasn’t already tedious enough, the lecturer had the energy and presence of a mannikin and would just stand there droning through the material in a low monotone, never looking at the class.
    Thankfully I’ve long forgotten everything I ever learned in the class.

  47. @ic1000
    @Rob

    Re: commenter DanHessinMD -- at some point he clarified it was location, not physician. His case for humidity being an effective NPI for Covid came with references, and they checked out. Here's a thread from March 16, 2020 for anybody who's interested. (Click on "DanHessinMD" in #24 to activate unz.com's search engine, then scroll through his comments.)

    Replies: @Rob

    I know he had pretty legitimate-seeming references, though i did not check them out. He should have chosen a screen nsme that did not seem to claim he’s a physician. I’m not saying he was intentionally dishonest, but that was the effect. Absolute humidity is low in the winter, but spring and fall are the cold & flu seasons, aren’t they?

    Personally, i hope he’s near-totally right and all we have to do to defeat respiratory viruses is This One Weird Trick of raising indoor humidity. It’d be a lot cheaper than massive HVAC changes, or even rebuilding the duct work to move air as close to vertically as possible.

    Maybe UV lights and humidifiers will be enough? My guess though, is we won’t large-scale building or retrofitting to fight respiratory diseases for at least twenty or thirty years. Science might not advance one funeral at a time, but i will bet that architects sre more non-politically conservative than scientists. Probably takes thirty years for a feature to go from newest thing to everyday installation.

    How long did indoor pumbing and air conditioning take from look-at-this-wow to pedestrian of-course-this-building-has-that-it’s-a-building-isn’t-it?

    But if the retrofit is as easy as a humidifier and UV lights, maybe we could have it in ten years?

    Anyone know the building trades well enough to comment?

    • Replies: @Whitey Whiteman III
    @Rob

    Here's a thorough review that is (I think) still an easy read for smart people, even without any science background.

    https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/pdf/10.1146/annurev-virology-012420-022445

    , @Bumpkin, @Obstinate Cymric
    @Rob

    The problem with humidity, as anyone who's got an old property or one that's been empty a long time knows, is that its not good for building fabric. Moulds grow (can cause respiratory disease), plaster falls off walls, paper, wood and a lot of other things rot. That's why the first thing you do if you buy a derelict place is get a decent roof on it.

    When they dug Captain Scott's hut, abandoned since 1917, out of the Antarctic ice in 1956, it was in good condition. Low humidity preserves things.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott's_Hut


    I imagine for office buildings the thing to do would be to humidify during the day but dehumidify at night and weekends. Otherwise you'll get condensation in cold spots and roof voids for starters.

    Replies: @FPD72, @Alden

  48. This young woman is too dim to realize it, but it’s actually white indulgence as opposed to racism that has led to her being at Harvard in an academic track that is above her abilities.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Arclight

    I'll wager she's certainly aware that there are people who interpret her problem just that way. The fog of verbiage is to prevent herself from having to acknowledge it.

    Replies: @Arclight

  49. Kyla Golding = D gal lying. OK?

  50. One of the harder aspects of elite schools is that so many of your fellow students are just better than you. Not just better in grades: better looking, smarter, nicer, more talented, etc. It’s even worse when the very accomplished white (or Jewish) males don’t look like they’re even trying. While you stayed up late studying for orgo and got a D, and the white guy that got an A was watching the Dodgers-Giants game.

    You can either accept your limitations, or ascribe their accomplishments and your failures to something external. Kyla chose option 2.

    • Replies: @Father O'Hara
    @Matttt

    Bill Gates talked about how proud he was of his math talents til he got to Hahvahd and saw how much more talented other people were.

    That's when he decided:"Someday I will destroy mankind!"

  51. Pre-med is hard—no need to blather on about it!

  52. @Rob
    I must also point out that “miasma” theory gets a bad rap. While most illnesses are caused by infections, not toxins, the infectious agents usually spread through a medium, such as air, water, or food, and not directly from person to person.

    As agnostic says, it is interesting that bat coronaviruses, long evolved for spreading through the stagnant air in caves infected bats to new hosts, can cross over to spread from infected people to uninfected people through the stagnant air in modern buildings.

    In retrospect, it is flabbergasting that the medical establishment thought that respiratory infections spread directly from one person to someone they were interacting with face to face or through droplets on surfaces. Surely we remember the media telling us to wash our hands frequently and to use high-alcohol hand sanitizer to beat the coronavirus. This was when Fauci was going on air to tell us that “there is no evidence that masks prevent infections.” Also, they told us that we needed to save masks for medical personnel, for whom, apparently, masks suddenly worked. It is hard to believe that this was the common belief, so we should work hard at remembering it.
    The psychology of “I can avoid getting a cold by sanitizing my hands” dovetailed with building owners wanting to save money by reducing air turnover in buildings to the extent that people ignored common sense that the most efficient way for a respiratory infection to spread is through the very air we breathe.

    I can see new buildings being designed so that fresh/sterilized air comes in near the floor and is pulled nearly straight up to be heated/cooled/(de)humidified and sterilized for recirculation. Expect to see ceiling fans pulling air up to ceiling vents make a comeback.

    Indeed, the demand curve for office space has almost certainly shifted down (I believe economists call this shifted to the right) such that at any given price, less is demanded than before the pandemic, rentiers will be forced to upgrade buildings for air sanitation. “Atmospheric Sanitation” might be a good consulting gig in the coming years.

    How about an Atlantic article about The Plan to Stop Every Respiratory Virus at Once

    Does anyone remember DanHessinMD? He does not comment on iSteve anymore, but he went on and on about humidity being an effective environmental preventative for respiratory viruses. I asked him once I’d he was “Dan Hessin, MD” or “Dan Hess in MD.” He did not answer, but Hessin is an extremely rare family name, but Hess is fairly common, so I’m going with the latter. Regardless of credentials, he could be right. Perhaps post-COVID research will vindicate his humidity as panacea ideology. Certainly humidifying air would likely be the cheapest retrofit.

    Replies: @ic1000, @Ralph L

    I’ve gotten only two colds in more than thirty years when I have a humidifier running at home when the furnace is on. I used to always get one when the weather turned cold. But I have very fragile skin–can’t wear synthetics and blister easily–I started it to prevent nose and gum bleeds overnight.

  53. WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD: Genetic variation across ancestral populations means that there are very few Black Americans able for the rigors of the pre-med track. This young woman is the best that even Harvard could manage, and she is not really able for Organic Chemistry. That is the reality.

    Can the average Harvard undergraduate be fooled by her hysterical fantasy? They need to use their native cognitive talent and get a grip on reality. She will not — the fantasy that she espouses is in her personal interest. It is not in the interest of the typical Harvard undergrad. Don’t believe the hype.

    The intellectual elite need to get a grip and face up to reality. Black academic underperformance is due to genetic variation, not systemic discrimination.

  54. A true pre-med would write this sort of [accusatory] letter as a kick-off to medical school application season.

    I once submitted a lighthearted, non-political, trenchant letter to my crappy, college paper. It was rejected, of course.

  55. @Jack D

    But no more. I have chosen a path to justice and healing that is rooted in self-love and preservation.
     
    In other words, I switch my major to African American Studies.

    Replies: @AndrewR, @Bardon Kaldian, @Abe, @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    In other words, I switch my major to African American Studies.

    Good thing black girls who are affirmatively action’d into colleges and majors beyond their intellectual keen only to wash-out never subsequently go on to hold positions of great authority in our society. I mean, we’d never be so dumb as to put someone who is: a) not very smart to begin with, b) thinks they are way smarter than they actually are, c) has a huge chip on their shoulder from being intellectually humiliated at a young age, in charge of anything more consequential than a PTA bake sale committee, right? Western civilizations don’t shoot themselves in the feet, do they?

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Abe

    1. She passed the bar exam. She doesn't have intellectual deficits any more severe than you find in Congress generally.

    2. She's not a woman who ever had much professional ambition or interest in any trade. The irony is that one person after another was willing to install her in positions in local government and in higher education that had vague duties but paid handsome salaries. Recall what Diplomad 2.0 said about the phenomenon as he observed it in posts in Latin America: the function of the First Lady is to launder the bribes.

    Replies: @Abe

  56. @AndrewR
    I realize you're old as sin, and this girl presumably cannot legally buy alcohol in Massachusetts, but this is an ADULT at the most prestigious university in the US. And any of us could do a five second google search and see her name on the Crimson website, if you hadn't already linked to her pathetic letter.

    Granted, she's a female and she's black, two groups not well-known for theur self-awareness, but I doubt she will have any more self-awareness in ten or thirty years, so there is absolutely no reason to censor her name. She wanted to "speak her truth" so why not let her? On the infinitesimal chance that she actually ends up regretting this humiliating self-own in the future, well, them's the breaks. Smarter, better people than her have done stupider things than this. Or at least I assume so. Admittedly I've never written anything this stupid and submitted it for publication.

    Replies: @meretricious, @Anonymous

    it’s written by a HARVARD student–Sailer’s point has nothing to do with hair. He’s letting his readers know how dumb blacks are that are admitted to Harvard.

  57. The reports I’ve seen on the BBC haven’t even mentioned this girl. The heat at present seems to be on Dave Halls, the assistant director. It took him about 15 years to work up from second director assistant to first assistant director roles where he’s been for the last 10 years or so.

    https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0002577/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1

  58. @Abe
    @Jack D


    In other words, I switch my major to African American Studies.
     
    Good thing black girls who are affirmatively action’d into colleges and majors beyond their intellectual keen only to wash-out never subsequently go on to hold positions of great authority in our society. I mean, we’d never be so dumb as to put someone who is: a) not very smart to begin with, b) thinks they are way smarter than they actually are, c) has a huge chip on their shoulder from being intellectually humiliated at a young age, in charge of anything more consequential than a PTA bake sale committee, right? Western civilizations don’t shoot themselves in the feet, do they?

    https://famousnews.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/ecff45ae7677bc8d395df094bb783213-300x150.png

    Replies: @Art Deco

    1. She passed the bar exam. She doesn’t have intellectual deficits any more severe than you find in Congress generally.

    2. She’s not a woman who ever had much professional ambition or interest in any trade. The irony is that one person after another was willing to install her in positions in local government and in higher education that had vague duties but paid handsome salaries. Recall what Diplomad 2.0 said about the phenomenon as he observed it in posts in Latin America: the function of the First Lady is to launder the bribes.

    • Thanks: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @Abe
    @Art Deco


    She passed the bar exam. She doesn’t have intellectual deficits any more severe than you find in Congress generally.
     
    Same goes for every personal injury attorney whose face I saw on a billboard or bus stop bench during my recent swing through STL. So we agree, Michelle is not intellectually deficient compared to your typical ambulance chaser (though a lot less energetic).

    Obama himself is good deal smarter, but (unless this is made up) even he is supposedly arrogant enough and stupid enough to imagine himself always the smartest guy in the room, even with the likes of a Larry Summers (first Harvard professor to be awarded tenure as a zygote) in there as well.

    Replies: @Art Deco

  59. @Arclight
    This young woman is too dim to realize it, but it's actually white indulgence as opposed to racism that has led to her being at Harvard in an academic track that is above her abilities.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    I’ll wager she’s certainly aware that there are people who interpret her problem just that way. The fog of verbiage is to prevent herself from having to acknowledge it.

    • Replies: @Arclight
    @Art Deco

    That's true - a lot of the caterwauling about institutional racism is people realizing they just don't measure up and taking the socially acceptable line that their lack of achievement is caused by anything other than the most obvious reason.

    Replies: @Expletive Deleted

  60. @Rob
    @ic1000

    I know he had pretty legitimate-seeming references, though i did not check them out. He should have chosen a screen nsme that did not seem to claim he’s a physician. I’m not saying he was intentionally dishonest, but that was the effect. Absolute humidity is low in the winter, but spring and fall are the cold & flu seasons, aren’t they?

    Personally, i hope he’s near-totally right and all we have to do to defeat respiratory viruses is This One Weird Trick of raising indoor humidity. It’d be a lot cheaper than massive HVAC changes, or even rebuilding the duct work to move air as close to vertically as possible.

    Maybe UV lights and humidifiers will be enough? My guess though, is we won’t large-scale building or retrofitting to fight respiratory diseases for at least twenty or thirty years. Science might not advance one funeral at a time, but i will bet that architects sre more non-politically conservative than scientists. Probably takes thirty years for a feature to go from newest thing to everyday installation.

    How long did indoor pumbing and air conditioning take from look-at-this-wow to pedestrian of-course-this-building-has-that-it’s-a-building-isn’t-it?

    But if the retrofit is as easy as a humidifier and UV lights, maybe we could have it in ten years?

    Anyone know the building trades well enough to comment?

    Replies: @Whitey Whiteman III, @Bumpkin, @Obstinate Cymric

    Here’s a thorough review that is (I think) still an easy read for smart people, even without any science background.

    https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/pdf/10.1146/annurev-virology-012420-022445

  61. @ic1000
    Of the 16 comments that the Crimson moderators approved, fourteen or so are unsympathetic, though few seem to have Harvard authors. 'Karl' was succinct:

    What a train wreck this article is. But a win for future patients.
     
    While at the Op-Ed, cntrl-F "GPA" --> Not Found.

    Just a bit lower than Allan Bakke's and those of the Students For Fair Admission plaintiffs, I'll wager.

    Replies: @J1234

    The letter reminds me of every farewell note in every hobby or politics forum I’ve been a member of. The writer is convinced that the readers – upon reading the letter – will be more hurt by the departure than the writer is, and they’ll carry the emotional and moral scars to their graves. In fact, most will forget about it by lunch time (even those who are sympathetic.)

  62. Well Steve, you were quite prescient regarding your miasma theory. Hopefully it will not gain steam as other progressive myths (CRT) have.

    It is a sad sign of the times that erstwhile successful people, like Jussie Smollett and this Harvard undergrad, believe that the highest status and honor one can achieve is to be a victim of white racism. Given her fragile emotional state, and the preponderance of white bodies at Harvard, poor Kyla should just transfer to Howard University, where the incidence of white supremacy would be more remote. Of course, she would have to be much more creative in coming up with excuses for failing organic chemistry at Howard.

  63. No wonder people avoid black doctors and dentists.

  64. This is more or less the same as the voodoo theory of racism that Steve often describes, just tarted up with the additional 20-25 IQ points it takes for affirmative action admission to Harvard University and put into science-y language to make it more acceptable to its intended audience. It sort of sounds quaintly dated in its sophistication – like what someone in the 1800s would say about a disease after dismissing as silly the medieval belief in humors.

    So, one supposes that the overall net yield will be one fewer incompetent medical doctor in the wild, and one more competent but distant Asian medical doctor with horrible bedside manner.

  65. @Jack D

    But no more. I have chosen a path to justice and healing that is rooted in self-love and preservation.
     
    In other words, I switch my major to African American Studies.

    Replies: @AndrewR, @Bardon Kaldian, @Abe, @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    In other words, I switch my major to African American Studies.

    Coming from Harvard/Yale/Princeton/Stanford it could be as or more remunerative and a lot less labor intensive for an above-average IQ black woman to work her way into the private sector diversity bureaucracy than to struggle through a course of undergraduate scientific study, medical school, and internship, etc.

    These people can create and maintain well paid fiefdoms in corporate America without having to do much of anything – they’re just insurance against corporate cancellation even if internal hostage-takers within the corporations that employ them. If you’re a doctor and not good at it, your patients can be maimed and killed and you will get blame that even melanin privilege can’t fully excuse. Whereas if you’re a diversity bureaucrat, the only thing you can kill is the nation itself by assisting a proportionate share in its suicide.

    • Agree: Rob McX
  66. @Rob
    @ic1000

    I know he had pretty legitimate-seeming references, though i did not check them out. He should have chosen a screen nsme that did not seem to claim he’s a physician. I’m not saying he was intentionally dishonest, but that was the effect. Absolute humidity is low in the winter, but spring and fall are the cold & flu seasons, aren’t they?

    Personally, i hope he’s near-totally right and all we have to do to defeat respiratory viruses is This One Weird Trick of raising indoor humidity. It’d be a lot cheaper than massive HVAC changes, or even rebuilding the duct work to move air as close to vertically as possible.

    Maybe UV lights and humidifiers will be enough? My guess though, is we won’t large-scale building or retrofitting to fight respiratory diseases for at least twenty or thirty years. Science might not advance one funeral at a time, but i will bet that architects sre more non-politically conservative than scientists. Probably takes thirty years for a feature to go from newest thing to everyday installation.

    How long did indoor pumbing and air conditioning take from look-at-this-wow to pedestrian of-course-this-building-has-that-it’s-a-building-isn’t-it?

    But if the retrofit is as easy as a humidifier and UV lights, maybe we could have it in ten years?

    Anyone know the building trades well enough to comment?

    Replies: @Whitey Whiteman III, @Bumpkin, @Obstinate Cymric

  67. Nice hair. I’d like to touch it.

    • LOL: Rich
    • Replies: @Jack Armstrong
    @Jim Don Bob

    https://thebeanmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/unnamed-scaled-e1594699680615-934x1024.jpg

    , @Jenner Ickham Errican
    @Jim Don Bob


    Nice hair. I’d like to touch it.
     
    Find her Seeking Arrangements and give it a couple of hard yanks.
    , @Expletive Deleted
    @Jim Don Bob

    Me grandma had better doormats. And she wasn't rich, worked a loom from 14 to well past 60.

    Replies: @Expletive Deleted, @Father O'Hara

  68. @Art Deco
    @Arclight

    I'll wager she's certainly aware that there are people who interpret her problem just that way. The fog of verbiage is to prevent herself from having to acknowledge it.

    Replies: @Arclight

    That’s true – a lot of the caterwauling about institutional racism is people realizing they just don’t measure up and taking the socially acceptable line that their lack of achievement is caused by anything other than the most obvious reason.

    • Replies: @Expletive Deleted
    @Arclight


    That day, my body inhaled molecules of white supremacy as they seeped out of my computer
     
    Man alive! this is glorious.
    I'm starting to think this is a pasta cooked up by those little scamps on the chans.

    It's just too, too pitch-perfect. How could someone as catastrophically underbrained as "she" purports hit every chime on the rayciss xylophone? And make such a complete arse of "herself" (and her co-ethnics as collateral) to the entire world?

    So we've got mollycules and the like (same as bicycles and rough roads; The Third Policeman) inveigling their albinic way into her pure and helpless Black Body.
    And despite her purported engagement with all the Chemistries, org. or not, fails to pick up the baton and run, run, run towards that Nobel?

    If only she'd had the presence of mind to construct some sort of detection-and-capture device around the computer, or even syringed them from her own, now hopelessly compromised, sable circulatory system.
    Analysed them. Even figured out how to replicate them (I mean they're fuck-huge mollycules, not RNA viruses). By way of .. PCR amplification, maybe?

    And bottled the result for resale, as some sort of vaccine antidote to the foul pestilence haunting her imagination. Or even flogged them over the web to .. I dunno .. East Asians.
    My kid bro tells me the amount of pale-scale jockeying for status among everyone he's lived with, from Chiang Rai to Tokyo (Burma's out, but they do it too) is baffling and quite upsetting.

    (He was as blond as Johnny Winter, skinny, and many feet tall. As many as takes more than one hand to count, as his hilltribe ex- might have declared (if she could conceive of graduated linear measurement: not just "as long as this").
  69. @Twinkie

    half an organic chemistry course later
     
    Ha, ha, ha. Organic chemistry is the bane of many would-be pre-med students. "Orgo" is THE weed-out course for pre-meds and, so, it is "racist," by which it is meant that, yes, it's tough on low IQ wannabe pre-meds.

    Replies: @Ralph L, @22pp22, @Alec Leamas (hard at work), @Getaclue, @Black Athena

    Ha, ha, ha. Organic chemistry is the bane of many would-be pre-med students. “Orgo” is THE weed-out course for pre-meds and, so, it is “racist,” by which it is meant that, yes, it’s tough on low IQ wannabe pre-meds.

    As an aside and outside of the context of diversifying the medical profession through affirmative action, I think we should reexamine whether courses like organic chemistry are necessary prerequisites to the study of medicine or whether they are simply barriers to entry into the medical profession which serve existing physicians insofar as they keep the supply of new doctors artificially small. If they are necessary, then obviously the should be kept. If not, perhaps they should be discarded.

    It’s generally accepted that the United States needs more medical doctors, and that the cost of medical care is in large part driven by physician compensation.

    In my informal poll of physicians with whom I am acquainted, when I ask them to state how necessary/useful organic chemistry is in their practice of medicine not one has said to me that it is something that they rely upon in the practice of medicine. Thus, I lean towards “artificial barrier to entry.”

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)


    that the cost of medical care is in large part driven by physician compensation.
     
    The high cost medical care in the US is driven by defensive medicine and administrative costs, not physician compensation, which only accounts snout 10% of healthcare costs.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @Abolish_public_education

    , @Seneca44
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    I would be in the minority of practicing physicians who believe that courses like Organic Chemistry are useful in that I cannot imagine taking and comprehending subsequent courses like Immunology, Physiology, Pharmacology, and Biochemistry which rely on some understanding of basic Organic Chem concepts. Structure activity relationships of new drugs are still fascinating to a definite minority of physicians. While it could certainly be argued that doctors don't need the detailed understanding of these basic sciences, I would argue that the exposure to these courses is what separates us from PA's, NP's and other LELTs (Less Education Less Training)

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Black Athena

    , @MarkinLA
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    Since the number of wanna be physicians far exceeds the slots in accredited medical schools, there will always be weeder courses even if it was advanced basket weaving. Somebody has to tell these kids early enough to make a good course correction that they aren't going to make it. Would it be better for them to get to their senior year when they find out the last three have been largely a waste?

    In the hard sciences, it usually happens in your first upper division courses when you realize there really are super smart people in your class and you aren't one. However, any level of completion in the hard sciences is usually of some value in the labor market.

    , @Black Athena
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)


    In my informal poll of physicians with whom I am acquainted, when I ask them to state how necessary/useful organic chemistry is in their practice of medicine not one has said to me that it is something that they rely upon in the practice of medicine. Thus, I lean towards “artificial barrier to entry.”
     
    Well said.

    If this artificial barrier was concocted to "weed out" women and minorities it has failed miserably. More than half of all medical school students in the US are now females, while non-whites of both sexes, led by asians, are now the majority. This is true at Harvard Medical School as well.

    Everyone, except asians, is under-represented in Medical Colleges. With native Americans being the least represented at 0.16% of matriculants, followed by hispanics at 6.8%, african-americans at 7.9% and whites at 44.7%. Disregarding the Other, Mixed and Unknown categories.

    Source: https://www.aamc.org/data-reports/students-residents/interactive-data/2020-facts-applicants-and-matriculants-data

    Replies: @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

  70. @Rich
    @Buzz Mohawk

    I probably grew up in a few neighborhoods tougher than most, but back when I was a kid, 16 was considered an adult because that's when you could be charged as an adult.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

    Yes. It was also the age of consent in may places. Our society has simply extended the length of childhood, emasculated its young men, and made blameless its young women accordingly.

  71. Anonymous[318] • Disclaimer says:

    Steve, collegiate kids write a lot of this purple prose now. I don’t know if you’ve seen some personal statement/essay samples for applications recently, but “modesty” is not much in style from what I’ve read.

    Of course the young will go along with whoever is the Expert Consultant proofreading it, the same way bad acting hinges on bad direction, but I think YA media must be partly to blame for this shift toward overdone Emile Zola J’Accuse polemics, away from humor and unashamed naivete which are both socially riskier.

  72. I wonder how many white students resigned from medical school after suffering the trauma of OJ being acquitted of murdering 2 white people????

    • Agree: Rob McX
  73. Anonymous[318] • Disclaimer says:
    @AndrewR
    I realize you're old as sin, and this girl presumably cannot legally buy alcohol in Massachusetts, but this is an ADULT at the most prestigious university in the US. And any of us could do a five second google search and see her name on the Crimson website, if you hadn't already linked to her pathetic letter.

    Granted, she's a female and she's black, two groups not well-known for theur self-awareness, but I doubt she will have any more self-awareness in ten or thirty years, so there is absolutely no reason to censor her name. She wanted to "speak her truth" so why not let her? On the infinitesimal chance that she actually ends up regretting this humiliating self-own in the future, well, them's the breaks. Smarter, better people than her have done stupider things than this. Or at least I assume so. Admittedly I've never written anything this stupid and submitted it for publication.

    Replies: @meretricious, @Anonymous

    I’d prefer he went the other way and didn’t even link this yellow-Crimson journalism from his own post. Save a cached copy, sure, but anybody else who wants to find it, can find it, using a minimal 20th Century-era citation (and not a counter-bitchy blind item either, but “X newspaper/site, on Y date, page/section Z” worked really well for a long time).

    Why give these prestigious traffic-grubbers the oxygen of robot clicks? This isn’t 2003 any more when Blogspot.com was just getting off the ground.

  74. Up until reading Kyla’s magnificent lampoon I didn’t know that either Titania McGrath does blackface or Tiny Duck is a tranny.

  75. @Jim Don Bob
    Nice hair. I'd like to touch it.
    https://thebeanmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/unnamed-scaled-e1594699680615-620x420.jpg

    Replies: @Jack Armstrong, @Jenner Ickham Errican, @Expletive Deleted

  76. Seven hundred words, just to announce to the world you’re a quitter… sheesh.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Mr Mox


    Announce to the world you’re a quitter
     
    Why not? It won fellow bilious black-bint Simone Biles Olympian kudos for quitting.

    Blacks now demand medals not just for showing up, but for jumping ship.

    Note, too, Hysterindian's shaved-then-tattooed eyebrows and use of other folks' hair. What a tangled weave she wears when first practicing to deceive Harvard's admissions officers.
  77. Are you sure this is the Crimson and not the Lampoon?

  78. @Twinkie

    half an organic chemistry course later
     
    Ha, ha, ha. Organic chemistry is the bane of many would-be pre-med students. "Orgo" is THE weed-out course for pre-meds and, so, it is "racist," by which it is meant that, yes, it's tough on low IQ wannabe pre-meds.

    Replies: @Ralph L, @22pp22, @Alec Leamas (hard at work), @Getaclue, @Black Athena

    No worries — very soon that half a day of Chemistry and the color of her skin will get her that MD Degree, nothing else required…very soon — AMA is all for it….

  79. @Ralph L
    @Twinkie

    At my college, it was Inorganic Analysis (second quarter of chem) that weeded out the pre-meds who couldn't do math. Most people's first few test grades were so bad, you could get half the missed points back on a redo. The Organic class was much smaller.

    Hundreds, perhaps thousands, of patients can be thankful this woman will not be a doctor.

    Replies: @Dan, @Paleo Liberal

    From what I have seen:

    I went to grad school in a pre-med factory.

    First semester freshman year, 500+ students took freshman chemistry. True, that included some physics and bio students, as well as some real chem majors.

    First semester sophomore year, 200+ students took organic chemistry.

    Quite a few more would be weeded out during Organic Chem.

    About 80 would still be pre-meds at the end.

    Then it gets even tougher.

    [MORE]

    Many students who survived the process simply don’t take the MCAT exam, at least for a while, because due practice tests tell them they won’t do well. The practice tests always over estimate how the students do.

    For those who actually take the exam, the average MCAT score is designed to be 500, which isn’t good enough to get into med school. So many don’t apply, maybe spend another year studying until they can get a better score.

    For those who apply, the mean MCAT is about 506.

    Fewer than half of the applicants get in. The mean MCAT for students who actually attend med school is about 512 1/2, which varies by ethnic group.

    About 97% of the students who get in actually graduate. They get the best residencies. That is about 2/3 of the open positions. The DOs take it to about 3/4 of the open positions. The other 25% are either Americans who went to Caribbean med schools or foreign MDs who want to live in the US.

    People on med school admissions committees say they have to reject the overwhelming majority of qualified applicants.

    The open borders folks tell us this is why we need more
    Immigrants. Because they say it is better to have immigrant doctors than highly qualified Americans who couldn’t get into med school because American med schools train far fewer doctors than the country needs.

    • Replies: @2BR
    @Paleo Liberal

    40% of female medical school graduates either quit or are working part time within 6 years of residency.

    https://www.aamc.org/news-insights/why-women-leave-medicine

  80. @Paleo Liberal
    @Ralph L

    From what I have seen:

    I went to grad school in a pre-med factory.

    First semester freshman year, 500+ students took freshman chemistry. True, that included some physics and bio students, as well as some real chem majors.

    First semester sophomore year, 200+ students took organic chemistry.

    Quite a few more would be weeded out during Organic Chem.

    About 80 would still be pre-meds at the end.

    Then it gets even tougher.



    Many students who survived the process simply don’t take the MCAT exam, at least for a while, because due practice tests tell them they won’t do well. The practice tests always over estimate how the students do.

    For those who actually take the exam, the average MCAT score is designed to be 500, which isn’t good enough to get into med school. So many don’t apply, maybe spend another year studying until they can get a better score.

    For those who apply, the mean MCAT is about 506.

    Fewer than half of the applicants get in. The mean MCAT for students who actually attend med school is about 512 1/2, which varies by ethnic group.

    About 97% of the students who get in actually graduate. They get the best residencies. That is about 2/3 of the open positions. The DOs take it to about 3/4 of the open positions. The other 25% are either Americans who went to Caribbean med schools or foreign MDs who want to live in the US.

    People on med school admissions committees say they have to reject the overwhelming majority of qualified applicants.

    The open borders folks tell us this is why we need more
    Immigrants. Because they say it is better to have immigrant doctors than highly qualified Americans who couldn’t get into med school because American med schools train far fewer doctors than the country needs.

    Replies: @2BR

    40% of female medical school graduates either quit or are working part time within 6 years of residency.

    https://www.aamc.org/news-insights/why-women-leave-medicine

  81. @Anonymous
    @Rob

    Well, just plan to not get sick in the future.


    https://time.com/6105532/foreign-trained-doctors/

    An Innovative Washington Law Aims to Get Foreign-Trained Doctors Back in Hospitals

    BY TARA LAW

    OCTOBER 11, 2021

    Growing up in Somalia’s capital of Mogadishu, where people sometimes die of preventable or treatable illnesses like diarrhea, typhoid and malaria, taught Abdifitah Mohamed…

    But Mohamed hasn’t been able to work as a doctor since 2015, when he left for the United States, where his wife emigrated in 2007… after spending thousands of dollars to apply to 150 residency programs, none of them would give him a chance…

    Now, a new program in Washington state, where Mohamed lives, could soon put him back to work. In May, Washington governor Jay Inslee signed a law granting internationally-trained medical graduates the opportunity to obtain two-year medical licenses to work as doctors, with the possibility of renewal…

    Experts say the program could serve as a model for other states to launch their own similar efforts…

    International medical graduates have long struggled to obtain U.S. medical licenses, but the current political moment could lead to lasting changes, says Jeanne Batalova, a senior policy analyst at the Migration Policy Institute…

    For Abdifitah Mohamed, watching how severely the pandemic has hit immigrants, people of color, and essential workers has only sharpened his sense of urgency to go back to work.

    https://time.com/6105532/foreign-trained-doctors/
     

    AMA? Hello, AMA, are you there? Come in AMA…

    Replies: @Rob McX, @Paleo Liberal

  82. I have to say, she writes pretty well, if you ignore the claptrap content: she may have found her true calling. Maybe she’ll grow out of the racism contagion boogeyman mumbo jumbo, and put together a well-received lyrical novel one day.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Bumpkin


    I have to say, she writes pretty well, if you ignore the claptrap content ...
     
    That struck me too - the writing sounds too artsy and sophisticated, and beyond the skill of most pre-med students, even at Harvard. Most likely, the piece was ghost-written for Kyla by someone in an anti-white campus activist group.

    As JFK demonstrated, you can go far in life with a good ghostwriter, including a Pulitzer for the famously ghosted "Profiles in Courage."

    Replies: @Art Deco

  83. @Anonymous
    @Rob

    Well, just plan to not get sick in the future.


    https://time.com/6105532/foreign-trained-doctors/

    An Innovative Washington Law Aims to Get Foreign-Trained Doctors Back in Hospitals

    BY TARA LAW

    OCTOBER 11, 2021

    Growing up in Somalia’s capital of Mogadishu, where people sometimes die of preventable or treatable illnesses like diarrhea, typhoid and malaria, taught Abdifitah Mohamed…

    But Mohamed hasn’t been able to work as a doctor since 2015, when he left for the United States, where his wife emigrated in 2007… after spending thousands of dollars to apply to 150 residency programs, none of them would give him a chance…

    Now, a new program in Washington state, where Mohamed lives, could soon put him back to work. In May, Washington governor Jay Inslee signed a law granting internationally-trained medical graduates the opportunity to obtain two-year medical licenses to work as doctors, with the possibility of renewal…

    Experts say the program could serve as a model for other states to launch their own similar efforts…

    International medical graduates have long struggled to obtain U.S. medical licenses, but the current political moment could lead to lasting changes, says Jeanne Batalova, a senior policy analyst at the Migration Policy Institute…

    For Abdifitah Mohamed, watching how severely the pandemic has hit immigrants, people of color, and essential workers has only sharpened his sense of urgency to go back to work.

    https://time.com/6105532/foreign-trained-doctors/
     

    AMA? Hello, AMA, are you there? Come in AMA…

    Replies: @Rob McX, @Paleo Liberal

    The best way to improve medical care in this country would be to increase the number of students in American med schools by at least 50%, perhaps more.

    Consider — 1/4 of residency positions are filled by MDs not educated in the US. This includes Americans who went to Caribbean med schools plus immigrants.

    Consider — people who are on med school admissions committees say they turn down many qualified applicants for each application they accept.

    • Agree: Buzz Mohawk
    • Replies: @res
    @Paleo Liberal

    Agreed, but think about how that would affect diversity numbers.

    Do you think they turn down many qualified URM applicants for each URM application they accept?

  84. Tragically even Black British Labour (ex-)Members of Parliament have been engulfed in this oppressively white miasma cloud.

    ”I am a black woman in a white court’: Former Labour MP claims she ‘fears being discriminated against’ as she faces jail for threatening to throw acid over a suspected love rival’

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10124065/Former-Labour-MP-reportedly-fears-discriminated-against-faces-jail.html

  85. @Art Deco
    @Abe

    1. She passed the bar exam. She doesn't have intellectual deficits any more severe than you find in Congress generally.

    2. She's not a woman who ever had much professional ambition or interest in any trade. The irony is that one person after another was willing to install her in positions in local government and in higher education that had vague duties but paid handsome salaries. Recall what Diplomad 2.0 said about the phenomenon as he observed it in posts in Latin America: the function of the First Lady is to launder the bribes.

    Replies: @Abe

    She passed the bar exam. She doesn’t have intellectual deficits any more severe than you find in Congress generally.

    Same goes for every personal injury attorney whose face I saw on a billboard or bus stop bench during my recent swing through STL. So we agree, Michelle is not intellectually deficient compared to your typical ambulance chaser (though a lot less energetic).

    Obama himself is good deal smarter, but (unless this is made up) even he is supposedly arrogant enough and stupid enough to imagine himself always the smartest guy in the room, even with the likes of a Larry Summers (first Harvard professor to be awarded tenure as a zygote) in there as well.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Abe

    I don't know why you'd compare her to personal injury lawyers who advertise. Those lawyers are a tiny minority of the profession. Mooch has a menu of vices. Vulgarity and exhibitionism are not her vices.

  86. “They entered my bloodstream and catalyzed a metabolism that would allow for the invasion of my body by a violently infectious life form”

    proving once again that blacks can mimic the grammar and vocabulary, but never truly understand the definitions. Pretty amazing trick, if you think about it.

    • Agree: Abe
  87. @Alec Leamas (hard at work)
    @Twinkie


    Ha, ha, ha. Organic chemistry is the bane of many would-be pre-med students. “Orgo” is THE weed-out course for pre-meds and, so, it is “racist,” by which it is meant that, yes, it’s tough on low IQ wannabe pre-meds.
     
    As an aside and outside of the context of diversifying the medical profession through affirmative action, I think we should reexamine whether courses like organic chemistry are necessary prerequisites to the study of medicine or whether they are simply barriers to entry into the medical profession which serve existing physicians insofar as they keep the supply of new doctors artificially small. If they are necessary, then obviously the should be kept. If not, perhaps they should be discarded.

    It's generally accepted that the United States needs more medical doctors, and that the cost of medical care is in large part driven by physician compensation.

    In my informal poll of physicians with whom I am acquainted, when I ask them to state how necessary/useful organic chemistry is in their practice of medicine not one has said to me that it is something that they rely upon in the practice of medicine. Thus, I lean towards "artificial barrier to entry."

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Seneca44, @MarkinLA, @Black Athena

    that the cost of medical care is in large part driven by physician compensation.

    The high cost medical care in the US is driven by defensive medicine and administrative costs, not physician compensation, which only accounts snout 10% of healthcare costs.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Twinkie

    It's actually less than 10%.

    , @Abolish_public_education
    @Twinkie

    The unrelenting, high cost of care is driven by too much government. That includes all the time and effort put out on the path to one's obtaining a medical license, e.g. a year of organic chemistry. Ditto the high costs of education, housing, transportation, precious metals, beer & milk, and on and on and on.

  88. Turn the bell curve upside down and call it good?

    • Replies: @mulga mumblebrain
    @Fran Macadam

    Call it a 'luvin' cup', sugar.

  89. @22pp22
    @Twinkie

    I am surprised. Organic chemistry's wildly boring and memory intensive, but it is not that hard. It's a bit learning kanji. Physical chemistry is usually the killer paper.

    If she flunked out on organic chemistry then she must be REALLY weak.

    Replies: @Magic Dirt Resident, @Alfa158, @SimpleSong

    For better or for worse, the fact that Organic chemistry is wildly boring and memory intensive is the reason it became intertwined with medical school admissions. Most of the stuff you learn in medical school is crushingly boring and memory intensive: for this pathogen, use this antibiotics as first line, for cardiac arrest, give these drugs in sequence, etc., etc. There aren’t really any big concepts. In most fields there would be an expectation that you would just look this stuff up at your leisure but because many things in medicine are highly time sensitive there is still a premium on memorization.

    • Replies: @stillCARealist
    @SimpleSong

    When I was in with my ob doc getting a final ultrasound before delivery I asked him, as he was the talkative type, and we stared at an image of a soon-to-be-born little boy, how many vertebrae humans have. He laughed and said, "I don't know. But I guess you'd think I would."

    The baby came out fine, even if the process was painful.

  90. @Arclight
    @Art Deco

    That's true - a lot of the caterwauling about institutional racism is people realizing they just don't measure up and taking the socially acceptable line that their lack of achievement is caused by anything other than the most obvious reason.

    Replies: @Expletive Deleted

    That day, my body inhaled molecules of white supremacy as they seeped out of my computer

    Man alive! this is glorious.
    I’m starting to think this is a pasta cooked up by those little scamps on the chans.

    It’s just too, too pitch-perfect. How could someone as catastrophically underbrained as “she” purports hit every chime on the rayciss xylophone? And make such a complete arse of “herself” (and her co-ethnics as collateral) to the entire world?

    So we’ve got mollycules and the like (same as bicycles and rough roads; The Third Policeman) inveigling their albinic way into her pure and helpless Black Body.
    And despite her purported engagement with all the Chemistries, org. or not, fails to pick up the baton and run, run, run towards that Nobel?

    If only she’d had the presence of mind to construct some sort of detection-and-capture device around the computer, or even syringed them from her own, now hopelessly compromised, sable circulatory system.
    Analysed them. Even figured out how to replicate them (I mean they’re fuck-huge mollycules, not RNA viruses). By way of .. PCR amplification, maybe?

    And bottled the result for resale, as some sort of vaccine antidote to the foul pestilence haunting her imagination. Or even flogged them over the web to .. I dunno .. East Asians.
    My kid bro tells me the amount of pale-scale jockeying for status among everyone he’s lived with, from Chiang Rai to Tokyo (Burma’s out, but they do it too) is baffling and quite upsetting.

    (He was as blond as Johnny Winter, skinny, and many feet tall. As many as takes more than one hand to count, as his hilltribe ex- might have declared (if she could conceive of graduated linear measurement: not just “as long as this”).

  91. @Alec Leamas (hard at work)
    @Twinkie


    Ha, ha, ha. Organic chemistry is the bane of many would-be pre-med students. “Orgo” is THE weed-out course for pre-meds and, so, it is “racist,” by which it is meant that, yes, it’s tough on low IQ wannabe pre-meds.
     
    As an aside and outside of the context of diversifying the medical profession through affirmative action, I think we should reexamine whether courses like organic chemistry are necessary prerequisites to the study of medicine or whether they are simply barriers to entry into the medical profession which serve existing physicians insofar as they keep the supply of new doctors artificially small. If they are necessary, then obviously the should be kept. If not, perhaps they should be discarded.

    It's generally accepted that the United States needs more medical doctors, and that the cost of medical care is in large part driven by physician compensation.

    In my informal poll of physicians with whom I am acquainted, when I ask them to state how necessary/useful organic chemistry is in their practice of medicine not one has said to me that it is something that they rely upon in the practice of medicine. Thus, I lean towards "artificial barrier to entry."

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Seneca44, @MarkinLA, @Black Athena

    I would be in the minority of practicing physicians who believe that courses like Organic Chemistry are useful in that I cannot imagine taking and comprehending subsequent courses like Immunology, Physiology, Pharmacology, and Biochemistry which rely on some understanding of basic Organic Chem concepts. Structure activity relationships of new drugs are still fascinating to a definite minority of physicians. While it could certainly be argued that doctors don’t need the detailed understanding of these basic sciences, I would argue that the exposure to these courses is what separates us from PA’s, NP’s and other LELTs (Less Education Less Training)

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Seneca44


    I would be in the minority of practicing physicians
     
    You are not in the minority.
    , @Black Athena
    @Seneca44


    I would be in the minority of practicing physicians who believe that courses like Organic Chemistry are useful
     
    You are right about that. And that is why the excessive importance (40-50% of MCAT questions) given to Organic Chemistry is a hurdle premed students shouldn't have to face. Shame on the gloaters here who are mocking this girl for getting stopped by it.

    https://admissionsconsultants.com/medical/organic-chemistry-requirement-med-school/

    It has become a tradition for pre-med students to fear and complain about the dreaded organic chemistry course. As much as they hate it, organic chemistry is a requirement for getting into most medical schools. However, some schools are beginning to question if it should be a determining factor in whether a student is able to pursue a career in medicine.

    some outside thinkers in the world of academic medicine are wondering whether organic chemistry should be an absolute requirement for all pre-med students. In fact, they suggest that requiring organic chemistry might exclude some very talented and bright students from continuing on the pre-med path.

    “I think organic chemistry, in its purest form, has less relevance to the modern physician than his predecessor decades ago" said Dr. Tim Wu, an assistant professor of surgery at University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine.

    The Dean for Medical Education, Dr. David Muller, is one of the driving forces behind The Icahn School’s curriculum change. “I believe there is a trend away from requiring organic chemistry, and that the momentum will pick up in the next two to three years,” he said. “Most educators agree that clinically relevant biochemistry and molecular biology are far more useful than Orgo.”


    Harvard Medical School is currently in the process of altering its curriculum to place less of a focus on organic chemistry. Harvard is considering interdisciplinary courses that combine biology and chemistry as a substitute for two semesters of organic and inorganic chemistry.


     

    Replies: @HA

  92. @Abe
    @Art Deco


    She passed the bar exam. She doesn’t have intellectual deficits any more severe than you find in Congress generally.
     
    Same goes for every personal injury attorney whose face I saw on a billboard or bus stop bench during my recent swing through STL. So we agree, Michelle is not intellectually deficient compared to your typical ambulance chaser (though a lot less energetic).

    Obama himself is good deal smarter, but (unless this is made up) even he is supposedly arrogant enough and stupid enough to imagine himself always the smartest guy in the room, even with the likes of a Larry Summers (first Harvard professor to be awarded tenure as a zygote) in there as well.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    I don’t know why you’d compare her to personal injury lawyers who advertise. Those lawyers are a tiny minority of the profession. Mooch has a menu of vices. Vulgarity and exhibitionism are not her vices.

  93. @Twinkie
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)


    that the cost of medical care is in large part driven by physician compensation.
     
    The high cost medical care in the US is driven by defensive medicine and administrative costs, not physician compensation, which only accounts snout 10% of healthcare costs.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @Abolish_public_education

    It’s actually less than 10%.

    • Agree: Buzz Mohawk
  94. two biology courses, one inorganic chemistry course, and half an organic chemistry course later

    Academic rigor
    Is tough when you’re an igor
    T’was always been a problem
    They say it’s getting bigor

  95. @Jim Don Bob
    Nice hair. I'd like to touch it.
    https://thebeanmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/unnamed-scaled-e1594699680615-620x420.jpg

    Replies: @Jack Armstrong, @Jenner Ickham Errican, @Expletive Deleted

    Nice hair. I’d like to touch it.

    Find her Seeking Arrangements and give it a couple of hard yanks.

  96. @Twinkie
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)


    that the cost of medical care is in large part driven by physician compensation.
     
    The high cost medical care in the US is driven by defensive medicine and administrative costs, not physician compensation, which only accounts snout 10% of healthcare costs.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @Abolish_public_education

    The unrelenting, high cost of care is driven by too much government. That includes all the time and effort put out on the path to one’s obtaining a medical license, e.g. a year of organic chemistry. Ditto the high costs of education, housing, transportation, precious metals, beer & milk, and on and on and on.

  97. Methinks a white kid wrote this as a joke.

    • Agree: Expletive Deleted
  98. @Jim Don Bob
    Nice hair. I'd like to touch it.
    https://thebeanmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/unnamed-scaled-e1594699680615-620x420.jpg

    Replies: @Jack Armstrong, @Jenner Ickham Errican, @Expletive Deleted

    Me grandma had better doormats. And she wasn’t rich, worked a loom from 14 to well past 60.

    • Replies: @Expletive Deleted
    @Expletive Deleted

    OK got me. I lied.
    12 looms at a time (silkspinner, like her maw and sisters)
    Else you'd be down the road.

    , @Father O'Hara
    @Expletive Deleted

    Might be something else you can yank on with her!

  99. She can complain all she wants, she’ll still be fly with the lords.

  100. BWTM . . . Calculus. With work, orchem is understandable. Calculus, never.

    Premed requires organic AND a semester of calculus. She would have made both.

  101. @Expletive Deleted
    @Jim Don Bob

    Me grandma had better doormats. And she wasn't rich, worked a loom from 14 to well past 60.

    Replies: @Expletive Deleted, @Father O'Hara

    OK got me. I lied.
    12 looms at a time (silkspinner, like her maw and sisters)
    Else you’d be down the road.

  102. It’s nice to see the Harvard Crimson has left dissenting comments on the article stand.

  103. So you failed the test huh?

  104. A new trend for rich suburban kid medical admissions is to apply to a DEM (Direct Entry Medicine) program in the United Kingdom and Ireland. You can get your license at age 22 or 23. Hard to get into the top Isles schools but Nottingham, Perth, Cork are pretty easy for Yankees who can pay full freight. Cheaper than the 8 year US grind.

    https://www.themedicportal.com/studying-medicine-in-ireland/irish-medical-school-entry-requirements/

    • Replies: @Corn
    @Jack Armstrong

    Funny you mention this. An Irishwoman was asking on Twitter not long ago why Americans going to college overseas wasn’t more common.

  105. @SimpleSong
    @22pp22

    For better or for worse, the fact that Organic chemistry is wildly boring and memory intensive is the reason it became intertwined with medical school admissions. Most of the stuff you learn in medical school is crushingly boring and memory intensive: for this pathogen, use this antibiotics as first line, for cardiac arrest, give these drugs in sequence, etc., etc. There aren't really any big concepts. In most fields there would be an expectation that you would just look this stuff up at your leisure but because many things in medicine are highly time sensitive there is still a premium on memorization.

    Replies: @stillCARealist

    When I was in with my ob doc getting a final ultrasound before delivery I asked him, as he was the talkative type, and we stared at an image of a soon-to-be-born little boy, how many vertebrae humans have. He laughed and said, “I don’t know. But I guess you’d think I would.”

    The baby came out fine, even if the process was painful.

  106. She’s not doctor material but she’s definitely good enough to write for Slate or something.

  107. @Veracitor
    So, like, you got a ‘D’ on the O-Chem midterm, right?

    Replies: @Eternally Antifascist

    Several commentators here have missed a key point, that actually even more highlights the basic lack of comprehension of any science by the putative author.

    Several lines of her inarticulate missive whine mightily about performing on the exam in inorganic chemistry. And she “describes” either some of the questions, or some of the answers to questions, in a completely inarticulate manner. Why? Because she writes a lot about steric hindrance regarding inorganic chemistry reactions.

    Steric hindrance is a common phenomenon in organic chemistry because some parts of one molecule cannot get close enough to parts of another molecule in order to initiate and complete a chemical reaction. Hence, hindrance to a chemical reaction because of stereo (or 3D) chemistry. If I recall my statistical mechanics correctly, most inorganic chemical reactions are driven by the increase in enthalpy from comparing the enthalpy of the reactants to the enthalpy of the final products of the potential chemical reaction. It is not likely that steric hindrance can be a factor in determining whether or not a chemical reaction proceeds because in most inorganic reactions the reacting molecules are not that large, at least compare to organic compounds massing more than a thousand Daltons.

    And I too dropped out of organic chemistry, but not because I was a pre-med student. Rather, I was a physics major who produced some respectable work in low energy nuclear physics. Organic was just TOO MUCH memorization for me!

  108. More miasma: What Is Patriarchy Stress Disorder, And How Do You Know If It’s Affecting You? (via Instapundit and David Thompson’s blog)

    Key quotations:

    Patriarchy Stress Disorder, or PSD.

    PSD is a term coined by Dr. Valerie Rein, Ph.D., in her book, Patriarchy Stress Disorder: The Invisible Inner Barrier to Women’s Happiness and Fulfillment. Dr. Rein identified PSD when in patient after patient, she noted signs of trauma, even though the patient hadn’t experienced an obvious trauma. When Dr. Rein learned that trauma could be genetically transmitted, the puzzle pieces fell into place.

    PSD is the idea that the mental, physical, and emotional impact of gender inequality is a trauma that impacts woman and builds over time, and over generations. That “collective intergenerational trauma shows up as an invisible barrier to women’s success, happiness and fulfillment,” says Dr. Rein.

    Women have been oppressed by a patriarchal system for thousands of years. Generations of women haven’t felt safe enough to be themselves, live their lives wholly in the way they see fit, to own their own bodies and their own shine.

    That oppression results in a trauma that’s passed down through generations. Not just in a metaphorical way, but in a very real, physical way. Trauma changes the physiology of the brain, according to Dr. Dr. Eugene Lipov, Ph.D., Chief Medical Officer of the Stella Center, who spoke to Good Housekeeping. That change is passed down in our genes.

    One of the consequences of that is our fight-or-flight response is always on and overactive. According to Dr. Rein, “The fact that our nervous systems constantly signal to us that we’re not safe, is the hidden reason why women hesitate to lean in and play big — and when they do, their health and relationships often take a toll, making it impossible for a high-achieving woman to have it all and thrive.”

    More after the break . . .

    [MORE]

    Signs You’re Suffering From Patriarchy Stress Disorder

    PSD can show up in a variety of surprising, and unsurprising, ways. In a podcast discussion with Kate Hanley, Dr. Rein confirmed that PSD can look like “self-sabotage, holding ourselves back, getting in our own way, fatigue, mental fog, trembles, sleeping, hormonal imbalances, autoimmune conditions.”

    Other ways it can manifest include:

    Feeling guilty about wanting more — Dr. Rein highlights that historically women have spent their time focused on simply surviving versus thriving. When we switch to thriving, to striving for more than the bare minimum, our bodies respond.

    Imposter Syndrome — not feeling good enough for the awards and achievements you’ve earned. This isn’t surprising considering that women have historically been taught that they’re worth less than men, notes Dr. Rein.

    An inability to trust your intuition

    Feeling unsafe (physically or emotionally) — on her website, Dr. Rein writes that “it’s never been safe to be a woman. Historically, it’s been particularly unsafe to be an outspoken, attractive, successful woman.”

    Feeling on edge as you achieve more success — According to Dr. Rein, “The more a woman breaks through the inner and outer glass ceilings and grows in her visibility and success, the more her nervous system drives up its hyper-activation, hyper-vigilance. Our nervous system perceives increased success as increased threat.”

  109. Anonymous[249] • Disclaimer says:
    @Bumpkin
    I have to say, she writes pretty well, if you ignore the claptrap content: she may have found her true calling. Maybe she'll grow out of the racism contagion boogeyman mumbo jumbo, and put together a well-received lyrical novel one day.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    I have to say, she writes pretty well, if you ignore the claptrap content …

    That struck me too – the writing sounds too artsy and sophisticated, and beyond the skill of most pre-med students, even at Harvard. Most likely, the piece was ghost-written for Kyla by someone in an anti-white campus activist group.

    As JFK demonstrated, you can go far in life with a good ghostwriter, including a Pulitzer for the famously ghosted “Profiles in Courage.”

    • Agree: Bumpkin
    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Anonymous

    It's unlikely she needed a ghostwriter to compose a letter to the editor.

  110. @Paleo Liberal
    @Anonymous

    The best way to improve medical care in this country would be to increase the number of students in American med schools by at least 50%, perhaps more.

    Consider — 1/4 of residency positions are filled by MDs not educated in the US. This includes Americans who went to Caribbean med schools plus immigrants.

    Consider — people who are on med school admissions committees say they turn down many qualified applicants for each application they accept.

    Replies: @res

    Agreed, but think about how that would affect diversity numbers.

    Do you think they turn down many qualified URM applicants for each URM application they accept?

  111. @Twinkie

    half an organic chemistry course later
     
    Ha, ha, ha. Organic chemistry is the bane of many would-be pre-med students. "Orgo" is THE weed-out course for pre-meds and, so, it is "racist," by which it is meant that, yes, it's tough on low IQ wannabe pre-meds.

    Replies: @Ralph L, @22pp22, @Alec Leamas (hard at work), @Getaclue, @Black Athena

    Ha, ha, ha. Organic chemistry is the bane of many would-be pre-med students. “Orgo” is THE weed-out course for pre-meds and, so, it is “racist,” by which it is meant that, yes, it’s tough on low IQ wannabe pre-meds.

    Hahaha indeed. The joke is on you. What the hell does mastering organic chemistry have to do with becoming a good doctor? If a “weed-out” course is even needed why should it be some useless subject from a century ago? Why not a 21st century subject that modern doctors actually need to know about, such as genetics, bio-engineering and AI?

    What Medical Schools do need is a “weed-out” interview that effectively weeds out autistic, narrow-minded nerds who lack the love and warmth that should be pre-requisites to becoming a Physician.

    We all have seen recently how alt-Right sites such as 4-chan and 8-chan have spawned thousands of racist and misogynistic STEM-nerd psychopaths spreading their dangerous hatreds like a deadly civilization-destroying virus. Would you like such doctors operating on you today given the current racial politics?

    • LOL: YetAnotherAnon
    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    @Black Athena

    "the love and warmth that should be pre-requisites to becoming a Physician"

    You also need the competence, conscientiousness and intelligence, which are absolutely mandatory. A well meaning but incompetent doctor with buckets of warmth and love should try counselling or therapy instead.

    There are some wonderful, loving, warm Health Care Assistants in the UK, getting minimum wage for one of the toughest, stinkiest jobs around, caring for elderly patients. A dementia ward can be like a vision of lost souls in Hell. But they wouldn't make great doctors, or they wouldn't be in that job (barring the 18 year olds who intend to apply for medicine and are burnishing the CV and finding if they can hack the rough stuff).

    Trouble with love and warmth is that it's difficult to measure. "If you can fake it, you've got it made". Intelligence, calm and competence first please.

    (Autistic nerd types have a place in medicine, especially research or specialisms, as do arrogant sods. Do you want to be operated on by a surgeon who's riddled with self-doubt or loses sleep worrying about his patients?)

    , @Twinkie
    @Black Athena


    Would you like such doctors operating on you today
     
    Yes, I prefer surgeons who were intelligent and hard-working enough to have passed orgo than those who could not or would not. As another comment pointed out, orgo is also a foundational course for others that are directly relevant to the practice of medicine. Physicians aren’t just nurse practitioners with fancier credentialing - they have to be able to understand the human body in toto, not just be able to perform a set of techniques mechanically.

    Replies: @Joe Stalin, @Alec Leamas (hard at work), @Art Deco

  112. @Alec Leamas (hard at work)
    @Twinkie


    Ha, ha, ha. Organic chemistry is the bane of many would-be pre-med students. “Orgo” is THE weed-out course for pre-meds and, so, it is “racist,” by which it is meant that, yes, it’s tough on low IQ wannabe pre-meds.
     
    As an aside and outside of the context of diversifying the medical profession through affirmative action, I think we should reexamine whether courses like organic chemistry are necessary prerequisites to the study of medicine or whether they are simply barriers to entry into the medical profession which serve existing physicians insofar as they keep the supply of new doctors artificially small. If they are necessary, then obviously the should be kept. If not, perhaps they should be discarded.

    It's generally accepted that the United States needs more medical doctors, and that the cost of medical care is in large part driven by physician compensation.

    In my informal poll of physicians with whom I am acquainted, when I ask them to state how necessary/useful organic chemistry is in their practice of medicine not one has said to me that it is something that they rely upon in the practice of medicine. Thus, I lean towards "artificial barrier to entry."

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Seneca44, @MarkinLA, @Black Athena

    Since the number of wanna be physicians far exceeds the slots in accredited medical schools, there will always be weeder courses even if it was advanced basket weaving. Somebody has to tell these kids early enough to make a good course correction that they aren’t going to make it. Would it be better for them to get to their senior year when they find out the last three have been largely a waste?

    In the hard sciences, it usually happens in your first upper division courses when you realize there really are super smart people in your class and you aren’t one. However, any level of completion in the hard sciences is usually of some value in the labor market.

  113. @Alec Leamas (hard at work)
    @Twinkie


    Ha, ha, ha. Organic chemistry is the bane of many would-be pre-med students. “Orgo” is THE weed-out course for pre-meds and, so, it is “racist,” by which it is meant that, yes, it’s tough on low IQ wannabe pre-meds.
     
    As an aside and outside of the context of diversifying the medical profession through affirmative action, I think we should reexamine whether courses like organic chemistry are necessary prerequisites to the study of medicine or whether they are simply barriers to entry into the medical profession which serve existing physicians insofar as they keep the supply of new doctors artificially small. If they are necessary, then obviously the should be kept. If not, perhaps they should be discarded.

    It's generally accepted that the United States needs more medical doctors, and that the cost of medical care is in large part driven by physician compensation.

    In my informal poll of physicians with whom I am acquainted, when I ask them to state how necessary/useful organic chemistry is in their practice of medicine not one has said to me that it is something that they rely upon in the practice of medicine. Thus, I lean towards "artificial barrier to entry."

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Seneca44, @MarkinLA, @Black Athena

    In my informal poll of physicians with whom I am acquainted, when I ask them to state how necessary/useful organic chemistry is in their practice of medicine not one has said to me that it is something that they rely upon in the practice of medicine. Thus, I lean towards “artificial barrier to entry.”

    Well said.

    If this artificial barrier was concocted to “weed out” women and minorities it has failed miserably. More than half of all medical school students in the US are now females, while non-whites of both sexes, led by asians, are now the majority. This is true at Harvard Medical School as well.

    Everyone, except asians, is under-represented in Medical Colleges. With native Americans being the least represented at 0.16% of matriculants, followed by hispanics at 6.8%, african-americans at 7.9% and whites at 44.7%. Disregarding the Other, Mixed and Unknown categories.

    Source: https://www.aamc.org/data-reports/students-residents/interactive-data/2020-facts-applicants-and-matriculants-data

    • Replies: @Alec Leamas (hard at work)
    @Black Athena


    If this artificial barrier was concocted to “weed out” women and minorities it has failed miserably. More than half of all medical school students in the US are now females, while non-whites of both sexes, led by asians, are now the majority. This is true at Harvard Medical School as well.

    Everyone, except asians, is under-represented in Medical Colleges. With native Americans being the least represented at 0.16% of matriculants, followed by hispanics at 6.8%, african-americans at 7.9% and whites at 44.7%. Disregarding the Other, Mixed and Unknown categories.
     
    I think you've grasped the point I was trying to make. I'm not sure that Asians cramming organic chemistry to ace undergraduate tests so that they can become physicians in high numbers would necessarily improve the quality of care if organic chemistry is not an actual, foundational requisite to understand what is taught in medical school. I'm open to the idea that it is, in fact, an important prerequisite to medical study, but I'm less than convinced.

    Additionally, if affirmative action applicants are waiving out of mastery of organic chemistry with grades in undergraduate organic chemistry which would disqualify Asian and white males from admission to any U.S. medical school, how important could mastery of organic chemistry be to the subsequent mastery of medical school material?

    In my experience, there are people who learn quickly without mastery and understanding, while there are people who need more time but can learn subjects with greater depth and mastery given the time. So, even if good grades in organic chemistry are not a mere barrier to entry and are important prerequisites to the study of medicine, it would seem that our system of selecting doctors prizes cramming over mastery insofar as the organic chemistry (and other) requisite courses move quickly. And if your objection here is "but then the people who learn quickly are better so weed out the others," you still haven't accounted for Asians and others grinding organic chemistry outside of the context of formal education.

    I've said before that I think a normal but bright American kid who played baseball and kissed girls and had friends ought to be able to become a medical doctor. Any system which makes this impossible because he is up against the children of tiger moms who abuse their children by forcing extensive hours of cramming on them is not one that is going to produce the kinds of doctors whom you will want to patronize.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Jenner Ickham Errican, @HA

  114. A Pre-Med Letter of Resignation, With (Self) Love & Liberation
    By Kyla ***, Crimson Opinion Writer
    OK, I’ll leave out her name because she’s just a kid.
    But, other than no mention of hair-touching, this is the Platonic essence of black women’s op-eds during the Great Awokening.

    I can sum up her Harvard Crimson essay without reading it. The pre-medical track at Harvard is racist, misogynist and beneath her. It’s not good enough for this corn-rowed black princess. Reality is, she is dumb and cannot hack it. Perhaps her parents forced her onto it, and she imploded after being so outclassed by the Asian grinds and the white pre-meds. Goldman Sachs should hire her. With her long corn-row hair, her future as an MD was dubious. At least for non-black patients. Same as I won’t see a Doc with a nose ring or male Doc with an earring.

    Meanwhile, a million Asian grinds 2.0 are cursing Harvard for not admitting them, where they would have gone on the pre-med track, to eventually become MDs @HMOs giving Covid-23C booster 4.0 injections. Instead, Harvard giving their seat to Kyla dufus.

  115. Anonymous[124] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mr Mox
    Seven hundred words, just to announce to the world you're a quitter... sheesh.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    Announce to the world you’re a quitter

    Why not? It won fellow bilious black-bint Simone Biles Olympian kudos for quitting.

    Blacks now demand medals not just for showing up, but for jumping ship.

    Note, too, Hysterindian’s shaved-then-tattooed eyebrows and use of other folks’ hair. What a tangled weave she wears when first practicing to deceive Harvard’s admissions officers.

  116. @Rob
    @ic1000

    I know he had pretty legitimate-seeming references, though i did not check them out. He should have chosen a screen nsme that did not seem to claim he’s a physician. I’m not saying he was intentionally dishonest, but that was the effect. Absolute humidity is low in the winter, but spring and fall are the cold & flu seasons, aren’t they?

    Personally, i hope he’s near-totally right and all we have to do to defeat respiratory viruses is This One Weird Trick of raising indoor humidity. It’d be a lot cheaper than massive HVAC changes, or even rebuilding the duct work to move air as close to vertically as possible.

    Maybe UV lights and humidifiers will be enough? My guess though, is we won’t large-scale building or retrofitting to fight respiratory diseases for at least twenty or thirty years. Science might not advance one funeral at a time, but i will bet that architects sre more non-politically conservative than scientists. Probably takes thirty years for a feature to go from newest thing to everyday installation.

    How long did indoor pumbing and air conditioning take from look-at-this-wow to pedestrian of-course-this-building-has-that-it’s-a-building-isn’t-it?

    But if the retrofit is as easy as a humidifier and UV lights, maybe we could have it in ten years?

    Anyone know the building trades well enough to comment?

    Replies: @Whitey Whiteman III, @Bumpkin, @Obstinate Cymric

    The problem with humidity, as anyone who’s got an old property or one that’s been empty a long time knows, is that its not good for building fabric. Moulds grow (can cause respiratory disease), plaster falls off walls, paper, wood and a lot of other things rot. That’s why the first thing you do if you buy a derelict place is get a decent roof on it.

    When they dug Captain Scott’s hut, abandoned since 1917, out of the Antarctic ice in 1956, it was in good condition. Low humidity preserves things.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott’s_Hut

    I imagine for office buildings the thing to do would be to humidify during the day but dehumidify at night and weekends. Otherwise you’ll get condensation in cold spots and roof voids for starters.

    • Replies: @FPD72
    @Obstinate Cymric


    The problem with humidity, as anyone who’s got an old property or one that’s been empty a long time knows, is that its not good for building fabric. Moulds grow (can cause respiratory disease), plaster falls off walls, paper, wood and a lot of other things rot.
     
    I’m familiar with a hotel in New Orleans that created a negative pressure building by having a huge exhaust fan in the roof. That resulted in humid outside air being pulled into the building through the walls, which in relatively little time resulted in every exterior wall becoming contaminated with mold.
    , @Alden
    @Obstinate Cymric

    Agree agree agree agree agree a thousand times.

  117. @fish
    @Gary in Gramercy

    I guess the weekend at the college didn't turn out like she planned......


    Apologies to Steely Dan.

    Replies: @Obstinate Cymric

    “the weekend at the college didn’t turn out like she planned”

    “The things you do for pre-Med she can’t understand”.

    (Odd really, she’s been telling me she was a genius since she was 17)

    • Replies: @Father O'Hara
    @Obstinate Cymric

    I did not think white men could be so cruel
    And I'm never going back to my med school!

    It seems so clear
    That its over now
    Drink your big black cow
    And get out of here...

  118. Even with grade inflation at Harvard, I am guessing “Kyra” was flailing (if not drowning) academically, since she writes all in SJW buzzwords. If she had used the word “overarching”, the evidence would be clear.

  119. @Bardon Kaldian
    @Jack D

    Recommended:

    https://aaas.fas.harvard.edu/files/aaas/files/aaas_logo.jpg?m=1591732126

    Replies: @slumber_j

    There she can study with e.g. Henry Louis Gates, Jr., whose endowed chair is (still!) named for perennial iSteve content generator and disgraced swindler Alphonse “Buddy” Fletcher. From Wikipedia:

    In 2004, Fletcher created the Alphonse Fletcher University Professor Fellowship program to financially support professors working to improve race relations at Harvard.[3][27] Funded as part of the Fletcher Foundation, Henry Louis Gates Jr. is the Alphonse Fletcher University Professor at Harvard.[28][29]

  120. @Black Athena
    @Twinkie


    Ha, ha, ha. Organic chemistry is the bane of many would-be pre-med students. “Orgo” is THE weed-out course for pre-meds and, so, it is “racist,” by which it is meant that, yes, it’s tough on low IQ wannabe pre-meds.
     
    Hahaha indeed. The joke is on you. What the hell does mastering organic chemistry have to do with becoming a good doctor? If a "weed-out" course is even needed why should it be some useless subject from a century ago? Why not a 21st century subject that modern doctors actually need to know about, such as genetics, bio-engineering and AI?

    What Medical Schools do need is a "weed-out" interview that effectively weeds out autistic, narrow-minded nerds who lack the love and warmth that should be pre-requisites to becoming a Physician.

    We all have seen recently how alt-Right sites such as 4-chan and 8-chan have spawned thousands of racist and misogynistic STEM-nerd psychopaths spreading their dangerous hatreds like a deadly civilization-destroying virus. Would you like such doctors operating on you today given the current racial politics?

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon, @Twinkie

    “the love and warmth that should be pre-requisites to becoming a Physician”

    You also need the competence, conscientiousness and intelligence, which are absolutely mandatory. A well meaning but incompetent doctor with buckets of warmth and love should try counselling or therapy instead.

    There are some wonderful, loving, warm Health Care Assistants in the UK, getting minimum wage for one of the toughest, stinkiest jobs around, caring for elderly patients. A dementia ward can be like a vision of lost souls in Hell. But they wouldn’t make great doctors, or they wouldn’t be in that job (barring the 18 year olds who intend to apply for medicine and are burnishing the CV and finding if they can hack the rough stuff).

    Trouble with love and warmth is that it’s difficult to measure. “If you can fake it, you’ve got it made”. Intelligence, calm and competence first please.

    (Autistic nerd types have a place in medicine, especially research or specialisms, as do arrogant sods. Do you want to be operated on by a surgeon who’s riddled with self-doubt or loses sleep worrying about his patients?)

  121. @Jack Armstrong
    A new trend for rich suburban kid medical admissions is to apply to a DEM (Direct Entry Medicine) program in the United Kingdom and Ireland. You can get your license at age 22 or 23. Hard to get into the top Isles schools but Nottingham, Perth, Cork are pretty easy for Yankees who can pay full freight. Cheaper than the 8 year US grind.

    https://www.themedicportal.com/studying-medicine-in-ireland/irish-medical-school-entry-requirements/

    Replies: @Corn

    Funny you mention this. An Irishwoman was asking on Twitter not long ago why Americans going to college overseas wasn’t more common.

  122. @Seneca44
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    I would be in the minority of practicing physicians who believe that courses like Organic Chemistry are useful in that I cannot imagine taking and comprehending subsequent courses like Immunology, Physiology, Pharmacology, and Biochemistry which rely on some understanding of basic Organic Chem concepts. Structure activity relationships of new drugs are still fascinating to a definite minority of physicians. While it could certainly be argued that doctors don't need the detailed understanding of these basic sciences, I would argue that the exposure to these courses is what separates us from PA's, NP's and other LELTs (Less Education Less Training)

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Black Athena

    I would be in the minority of practicing physicians

    You are not in the minority.

  123. @Black Athena
    @Twinkie


    Ha, ha, ha. Organic chemistry is the bane of many would-be pre-med students. “Orgo” is THE weed-out course for pre-meds and, so, it is “racist,” by which it is meant that, yes, it’s tough on low IQ wannabe pre-meds.
     
    Hahaha indeed. The joke is on you. What the hell does mastering organic chemistry have to do with becoming a good doctor? If a "weed-out" course is even needed why should it be some useless subject from a century ago? Why not a 21st century subject that modern doctors actually need to know about, such as genetics, bio-engineering and AI?

    What Medical Schools do need is a "weed-out" interview that effectively weeds out autistic, narrow-minded nerds who lack the love and warmth that should be pre-requisites to becoming a Physician.

    We all have seen recently how alt-Right sites such as 4-chan and 8-chan have spawned thousands of racist and misogynistic STEM-nerd psychopaths spreading their dangerous hatreds like a deadly civilization-destroying virus. Would you like such doctors operating on you today given the current racial politics?

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon, @Twinkie

    Would you like such doctors operating on you today

    Yes, I prefer surgeons who were intelligent and hard-working enough to have passed orgo than those who could not or would not. As another comment pointed out, orgo is also a foundational course for others that are directly relevant to the practice of medicine. Physicians aren’t just nurse practitioners with fancier credentialing – they have to be able to understand the human body in toto, not just be able to perform a set of techniques mechanically.

    • Agree: Jack Armstrong
    • Replies: @Joe Stalin
    @Twinkie


    Physicians aren’t just nurse practitioners with fancier credentialing – they have to be able to understand the human body in toto, not just be able to perform a set of techniques mechanically.
     
    We want an MD like this guy:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4vsZw0D9Mo
    , @Alec Leamas (hard at work)
    @Twinkie


    Yes, I prefer surgeons who were intelligent and hard-working enough to have passed orgo than those who could not or would not. As another comment pointed out, orgo is also a foundational course for others that are directly relevant to the practice of medicine. Physicians aren’t just nurse practitioners with fancier credentialing – they have to be able to understand the human body in toto, not just be able to perform a set of techniques mechanically.
     
    Very well but if what you're valuing is a "weed out" course that winnows down aspiring doctors by intelligence, why not astrophysics? (or why not a simple IQ proxy test like the SAT?) Astrophysics is similarly difficult and would weed out second rate minds just as well if not better than organic chemistry. Granted organic chemistry is more closely relevant to human biology generally, but the standard I'm setting is "necessary to understand what is later taught in medical school and/or necessary to the daily practice of medicine." I think it's a mistake to just assume that general "sciencey" stuff is a relevant prerequisite to the study of medicine, and to pick one particularly difficult science course to weed out would-be physicians.

    Keep in mind that our system of physician selection is simultaneously "weeding back in" and credentialing people as physicians who did poorly in organic chemistry and other "prerequisites" relative to the (race and sex blind) average, and these people are free to practice medicine on you (and you may not always know it).

    I suppose a good test of this would be to have practicing physicians sit down and take a college organic chemistry final cold. If they're not able to score very high to perfect on the examination, that would be an indication that mastery of organic chemistry is not directly relevant and/or foundational to the practice of medicine. I would surmise that, for example, rocket scientists will do much better on an advanced calculus examination cold than practicing physicians would do on an organic chemistry examination cold. This is of course would be evidence that calculus is foundational to rocket science, while organic chemistry is perhaps useful but not foundational to medicine.

    All this is to say that I think rather than "weeding out" aspirants with difficult courses of study which are only questionably relevant to the study of medicine, the prerequisites should be directly relevant and the physician selection system should harvest the cream of that crop.

    Replies: @HA

    , @Art Deco
    @Twinkie

    Physicians aren’t just nurse practitioners with fancier credentialing – they have to be able to understand the human body in toto, not just be able to perform a set of techniques mechanically.

    Have you visited a primary care doctor? Ever?

    Replies: @mulga mumblebrain

  124. I sometimes wonder if far-flung future historians will look back on all this printed discussion about the pervasive effects of white supremacy and lose some of the meaning in translation. That is, will they say “Boy, this era talked a lot about how white supremacy was affecting everything — were whites really that awesome? It seems like everyone agreed they were supreme and their supremacy was inescable and affected everything.”

  125. @Anonymous
    @Bumpkin


    I have to say, she writes pretty well, if you ignore the claptrap content ...
     
    That struck me too - the writing sounds too artsy and sophisticated, and beyond the skill of most pre-med students, even at Harvard. Most likely, the piece was ghost-written for Kyla by someone in an anti-white campus activist group.

    As JFK demonstrated, you can go far in life with a good ghostwriter, including a Pulitzer for the famously ghosted "Profiles in Courage."

    Replies: @Art Deco

    It’s unlikely she needed a ghostwriter to compose a letter to the editor.

  126. A sad attempt to justify flunking out of pre-med.

    Racism is now to blame for blacks flunking any and every exam, and for their inability to hack STEM majors. Ironically they are not wrong. The real reason they can’t hack college or STEM majors is because of affirmative action, which resulted in academic mismatch, i.e. their being admitted to colleges far too competitive for them solely because of their race, which is the very definition of racism.

  127. @Black Athena
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)


    In my informal poll of physicians with whom I am acquainted, when I ask them to state how necessary/useful organic chemistry is in their practice of medicine not one has said to me that it is something that they rely upon in the practice of medicine. Thus, I lean towards “artificial barrier to entry.”
     
    Well said.

    If this artificial barrier was concocted to "weed out" women and minorities it has failed miserably. More than half of all medical school students in the US are now females, while non-whites of both sexes, led by asians, are now the majority. This is true at Harvard Medical School as well.

    Everyone, except asians, is under-represented in Medical Colleges. With native Americans being the least represented at 0.16% of matriculants, followed by hispanics at 6.8%, african-americans at 7.9% and whites at 44.7%. Disregarding the Other, Mixed and Unknown categories.

    Source: https://www.aamc.org/data-reports/students-residents/interactive-data/2020-facts-applicants-and-matriculants-data

    Replies: @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    If this artificial barrier was concocted to “weed out” women and minorities it has failed miserably. More than half of all medical school students in the US are now females, while non-whites of both sexes, led by asians, are now the majority. This is true at Harvard Medical School as well.

    Everyone, except asians, is under-represented in Medical Colleges. With native Americans being the least represented at 0.16% of matriculants, followed by hispanics at 6.8%, african-americans at 7.9% and whites at 44.7%. Disregarding the Other, Mixed and Unknown categories.

    I think you’ve grasped the point I was trying to make. I’m not sure that Asians cramming organic chemistry to ace undergraduate tests so that they can become physicians in high numbers would necessarily improve the quality of care if organic chemistry is not an actual, foundational requisite to understand what is taught in medical school. I’m open to the idea that it is, in fact, an important prerequisite to medical study, but I’m less than convinced.

    Additionally, if affirmative action applicants are waiving out of mastery of organic chemistry with grades in undergraduate organic chemistry which would disqualify Asian and white males from admission to any U.S. medical school, how important could mastery of organic chemistry be to the subsequent mastery of medical school material?

    In my experience, there are people who learn quickly without mastery and understanding, while there are people who need more time but can learn subjects with greater depth and mastery given the time. So, even if good grades in organic chemistry are not a mere barrier to entry and are important prerequisites to the study of medicine, it would seem that our system of selecting doctors prizes cramming over mastery insofar as the organic chemistry (and other) requisite courses move quickly. And if your objection here is “but then the people who learn quickly are better so weed out the others,” you still haven’t accounted for Asians and others grinding organic chemistry outside of the context of formal education.

    I’ve said before that I think a normal but bright American kid who played baseball and kissed girls and had friends ought to be able to become a medical doctor. Any system which makes this impossible because he is up against the children of tiger moms who abuse their children by forcing extensive hours of cramming on them is not one that is going to produce the kinds of doctors whom you will want to patronize.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)


    I’ve said before that I think a normal but bright American kid who played baseball and kissed girls and had friends ought to be able to become a medical doctor.
     
    Just like “a normal but athletic American kid who kissed and had friends” ought to be able to be a professional baseball player.

    I got news for you. One, in real life, excellence is innate ability + effort (aka conscientiousness, which is highly correlated to life outcomes in most fields). It’s always people who drone about “Asian grinds” who seem to be under the mistaken impression that somehow untalented Asians who work hard are outcompeting white geniuses who don’t work hard. In the real world, talented people who work hard, white or Asian, are competing against other talented people who work hard. All the geniuses I know work maniacally hard.

    Two, kids who work hard still kiss girls and have friends. It’s just that if they are wise enough to delay gratification, they don’t do those things to the detriment of their intellectual and scholastic development while they are growing.

    It’s always amusing when I see people who rail against, say, black youths for “kissing girls and having friends” as having the inability to delay gratification and think long term compared to, say, white kids, but who, then, turn around and critique Asian kids for doing the same compared to white kids. It’s the the typical, “People who drive slower than I do are morons, but those who drive faster are crazies.”

    Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican, @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    , @Jenner Ickham Errican
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)


    Any system which makes this impossible because he is up against the children of tiger moms who abuse their children by forcing extensive hours of cramming on them is not one that is going to produce the kinds of doctors whom you will want to patronize.
     
    https://www.unz.com/isteve/harvard-crimson-miasma-theory-of-white-supremacy/#comment-4974996
    , @HA
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    "Any system which makes this impossible because he is up against the children of tiger moms who abuse their children by forcing extensive hours of cramming on them is not one that is going to produce the kinds of doctors whom you will want to patronize."

    If I understand you, you're saying we'll get more doctors "who played baseball and kissed girls and had friends" if we do away with organic chemistry requirements. Consider the more likely alternative of simply getting a lower tier of children with tiger moms, since even as it is, they are already willing to work for less than those baseball jocks and in small towns that have trouble retaining doctors.

    That means we'll just be loading the medical establishment with more foreign doctors -- not to mention cruelly depriving third world countries of an even greater portion of the native doctors that they raised and nurtured, only to see them skip off to some more developed country at the earliest opportunity, which is a far more egregious expropriation of "resources" than colonialism ever was. And of course you'll also be loading it with those who are washing out of the current curriculum, like the woman in question. Honestly, if it's between her and some baseball jock, who do you think is going to get that residency?

    If you just want a doctor who'll chat with you about the ball game to help distract you during the digital exam, (or are sore about not being able to be that doctor) I'm not sure you'll solve any of that by messing with organic chemistry prerequisites. Other factors are at play.

    Replies: @Alden, @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

  128. anon[219] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rob
    Whites exude a miasma that hurts blacks? No way this is a prelude to genocide. The road from that to “cut down the white trees” is no winding road. It looks more like a four-lane highway with no exits.

    Premed must be an especially difficult reality for people who are not smart but are smart for a black person, to handle. Most high school education is not designed to weed people out. Teachers, being liberals, will push through most any black who looks like she (almost always she) is trying and seems to care about education. But once she gets to organic chemistry, and not only does the handholding stop, but the profs are trying to get less capable people to quit. I am somewhat gladdened by this essay, as it shows that there are intelligence standards that even blacks must meet to get into med school and at Harvard, no less.

    I get that pre-med is tough. But it should be. Once upon a time, it did not matter who became a doctor, because medicine was worthless. Christian science spread because not getting medical “care” was healthier than receiving it. Homeopathic remedies were more effective than medicine. How can water be better medicine for any condition besides dehydration? Because the “medicines” were harmful.

    But that has changed. Thanks to the efforts of rational people, almost entirely white men, though women like Florence Nightingale show that ability shone through cishet white patriarchy — if there had been blacks capable of contributing, then their contributions would have been welcome — doctors are no longer scientists, people who formulate hypotheses and perform experiments. Today doctors are technicians, performing practical applications of science. The best are engineers, designing new applications from theory.

    Today, a good doctor is better than a bad doctor. A little more than a century ago, this was not the case. Tomorrow’s situation is so sad. Because doctors have prestige, society will contrive to have people who are bad doctors wearing white coats. You see, they will be black bodies in white coats.

    Maybe damage will be mitigated. To paraphrase another commenter, some doctors design innovative treatments, and others manage cholesterol. Nevertheless, so much is lost when precious spots in medical school which could be filled by people who will advance science, who will create treatments that make medicine even better are instead filled by people whose careers will consist of looking at a number, looking at the healthy range printed next to it, and saying, “your cholesterol is high. Let’s use simvastatin 10 mg to try to get it down.”

    Especially with the coming downsizing of education, which is unavoidable. It needs to be done because so many people who are not educable are being pushed through. Also, because the educational professions have thrown all in with one political party, eventually the other political party will catch wise and punish them. It would be a shame if dumbs are kept in while capable people are excluded, just so college can look like America.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Rich, @anon

    Premed must be an especially difficult reality for people who are not smart but are smart for a black person, to handle.

    That’s true of any and all STEM majors in any college due to academic mismatch brought on by affirmative action. AA causes colleges to admit blacks who score above 95th percentile SAT for blacks, but are only at about maybe 80 percentile for whites and Asians. So instead of going to a college where they could be in the 95th percentile of the entire student body and be successful at STEM or pre-med, they go for prestige and end up another bitter African American studies major, because of keen competition.

    Hence the need for the Diversity Industrial Complex, so these Harvard/Stanford grads with their useless grievance studies degrees can still go on to be Chief Diversity Officer of Fortune 500 companies.

    • Agree: Peter Johnson
  129. @Almost Missouri
    @AndrewR

    Heh, your cancer screening would take a back seat to her performative mourning.



    With (Self) Love & Liberation
     

     


    I have chosen a path to justice and healing that is rooted in self-love
     

     
    I didn't think I was old, but I'm old enough to remember when self-love was not considered a virtue, certainly not something that you would boast about in public.

    Replies: @Expletive Deleted, @FPD72

    I didn’t think I was old, but I’m old enough to remember when self-love was not considered a virtue, certainly not something that you would boast about in public.

    Not since Whitney Houston sang that learning to love yourself was the greatest love of all, although I don’t think that she had self-pleasuring in mind.

    Of course, many Evangelical preachers climbed aboard the self-love express, twisting Jesus’ instruction to love your neighbor as yourself into a command to love yourself, forgetting Paul’s specific condemnation of those who were lovers of self.

  130. OT — Loudoun County (VA) students at Stonebridge High School are walking out as I post this in protest against the “woke” school board’s handling of the rape of a female student in a restroom by a male “transgendered” student wearing a skirt. Newsmedia, helicopters, and police everywhere!

    The walkout is apparently county-wide.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/loudoun-county-students-walkout-in-protest-of-sexual-assaults-reports/ar-AAPYEYa

  131. @Obstinate Cymric
    @Rob

    The problem with humidity, as anyone who's got an old property or one that's been empty a long time knows, is that its not good for building fabric. Moulds grow (can cause respiratory disease), plaster falls off walls, paper, wood and a lot of other things rot. That's why the first thing you do if you buy a derelict place is get a decent roof on it.

    When they dug Captain Scott's hut, abandoned since 1917, out of the Antarctic ice in 1956, it was in good condition. Low humidity preserves things.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott's_Hut


    I imagine for office buildings the thing to do would be to humidify during the day but dehumidify at night and weekends. Otherwise you'll get condensation in cold spots and roof voids for starters.

    Replies: @FPD72, @Alden

    The problem with humidity, as anyone who’s got an old property or one that’s been empty a long time knows, is that its not good for building fabric. Moulds grow (can cause respiratory disease), plaster falls off walls, paper, wood and a lot of other things rot.

    I’m familiar with a hotel in New Orleans that created a negative pressure building by having a huge exhaust fan in the roof. That resulted in humid outside air being pulled into the building through the walls, which in relatively little time resulted in every exterior wall becoming contaminated with mold.

  132. @Twinkie
    @Black Athena


    Would you like such doctors operating on you today
     
    Yes, I prefer surgeons who were intelligent and hard-working enough to have passed orgo than those who could not or would not. As another comment pointed out, orgo is also a foundational course for others that are directly relevant to the practice of medicine. Physicians aren’t just nurse practitioners with fancier credentialing - they have to be able to understand the human body in toto, not just be able to perform a set of techniques mechanically.

    Replies: @Joe Stalin, @Alec Leamas (hard at work), @Art Deco

    Physicians aren’t just nurse practitioners with fancier credentialing – they have to be able to understand the human body in toto, not just be able to perform a set of techniques mechanically.

    We want an MD like this guy:

  133. @Twinkie
    @Black Athena


    Would you like such doctors operating on you today
     
    Yes, I prefer surgeons who were intelligent and hard-working enough to have passed orgo than those who could not or would not. As another comment pointed out, orgo is also a foundational course for others that are directly relevant to the practice of medicine. Physicians aren’t just nurse practitioners with fancier credentialing - they have to be able to understand the human body in toto, not just be able to perform a set of techniques mechanically.

    Replies: @Joe Stalin, @Alec Leamas (hard at work), @Art Deco

    Yes, I prefer surgeons who were intelligent and hard-working enough to have passed orgo than those who could not or would not. As another comment pointed out, orgo is also a foundational course for others that are directly relevant to the practice of medicine. Physicians aren’t just nurse practitioners with fancier credentialing – they have to be able to understand the human body in toto, not just be able to perform a set of techniques mechanically.

    Very well but if what you’re valuing is a “weed out” course that winnows down aspiring doctors by intelligence, why not astrophysics? (or why not a simple IQ proxy test like the SAT?) Astrophysics is similarly difficult and would weed out second rate minds just as well if not better than organic chemistry. Granted organic chemistry is more closely relevant to human biology generally, but the standard I’m setting is “necessary to understand what is later taught in medical school and/or necessary to the daily practice of medicine.” I think it’s a mistake to just assume that general “sciencey” stuff is a relevant prerequisite to the study of medicine, and to pick one particularly difficult science course to weed out would-be physicians.

    Keep in mind that our system of physician selection is simultaneously “weeding back in” and credentialing people as physicians who did poorly in organic chemistry and other “prerequisites” relative to the (race and sex blind) average, and these people are free to practice medicine on you (and you may not always know it).

    I suppose a good test of this would be to have practicing physicians sit down and take a college organic chemistry final cold. If they’re not able to score very high to perfect on the examination, that would be an indication that mastery of organic chemistry is not directly relevant and/or foundational to the practice of medicine. I would surmise that, for example, rocket scientists will do much better on an advanced calculus examination cold than practicing physicians would do on an organic chemistry examination cold. This is of course would be evidence that calculus is foundational to rocket science, while organic chemistry is perhaps useful but not foundational to medicine.

    All this is to say that I think rather than “weeding out” aspirants with difficult courses of study which are only questionably relevant to the study of medicine, the prerequisites should be directly relevant and the physician selection system should harvest the cream of that crop.

    • Replies: @HA
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    "Very well but if what you’re valuing is a “weed out” course that winnows down aspiring doctors by intelligence, why not astrophysics? (or why not a simple IQ proxy test like the SAT?) Astrophysics is similarly difficult and would weed out second rate minds just as well if not better than organic chemistry."

    That's debatable. Moreover, while there are numerous doctors who get by learning the bare minimum of organic chemistry needed to pass their exams and then immediately forget it until their next evaluation (at which point the learn-just-enough process repeats), we do want at least some significant portion of the graduating class to know organic chemistry well (or the immunology, biochemistry, etc. which require a working knowledge of organic chemistry -- but no familiarity with astrophysics) since they'll be participating in the development of new medicines and treatments. We also need a few of them in every hospital so that the slackers in the remainder of the graduating class can call them for a consult when something related to organic chemistry comes up, just like they relied on them during those pre-med cram sessions to pass.

    Once you lower the bar far enough, the only people left who devote enough attention to topics as difficult as organic chemistry will be total nerds, and that's kind of like what we're going to get anyway once robots take over medicine, and that's probably already in the works, and not necessarily something to forward to. Too many of the other pre-meds will spend all their extra time on dating apps, scoring even more recreational drugs, or editing their screenplays and their supposedly novel ideals for the next brilliant-but-troubled TV doctor.

    Look at Soviet medicine. They took your advice, and what happened? Medicine became a predominantly female, low-paying (and much lower-status) profession. Anyone with any sense there had to seek out Western doctors instead -- assuming they could scrape up some real Western currency in sufficient amounts to bribe officials to look the other way and pay for those doctors and that travel.

    Things are not ideal with the current state of medicine. But in proposing alternatives, be really careful about what you wish for.

  134. Well boys and girls, I’m putting it to the test. I’m having knee replacement surgery tomorrow, and my surgeon is the whitest knee guy on the MGH staff. That and his education at Wisconsin, Duke and Johns Hopkins.

    The girlfriend says that I should have gone with the Korean.

    • Replies: @Cortes
    @Brutusale

    Best wishes for a great outcome.

    Replies: @Brutusale

    , @mulga mumblebrain
    @Brutusale

    Should go with weight loss and physio. I'll spare you the method in which....I'll spare you.

    Replies: @Brutusale

    , @Father O'Hara
    @Brutusale

    Knee replacement? What do they do with the old one?

    ..."Great news,Mbongo! Dr. Mfasi has located a knee for you! We operate tomorrow! It will cost you only three head of cattle!"

  135. I needed a referral to go to a dermatologist and told my doctor I wanted an old white guy, not a 26 yo PA. The good news is that I found one. The bad news is that he retires year end.

  136. @Gamecock

    But no more. I have chosen a path to justice and healing that is rooted in self-love and preservation.
     
    M'kay. What are you going to do for money?

    Replies: @Anarchoproctologist, @John Milton's Ghost

    Blaming whitey is very lucrative

  137. @Alec Leamas (hard at work)
    @Twinkie


    Yes, I prefer surgeons who were intelligent and hard-working enough to have passed orgo than those who could not or would not. As another comment pointed out, orgo is also a foundational course for others that are directly relevant to the practice of medicine. Physicians aren’t just nurse practitioners with fancier credentialing – they have to be able to understand the human body in toto, not just be able to perform a set of techniques mechanically.
     
    Very well but if what you're valuing is a "weed out" course that winnows down aspiring doctors by intelligence, why not astrophysics? (or why not a simple IQ proxy test like the SAT?) Astrophysics is similarly difficult and would weed out second rate minds just as well if not better than organic chemistry. Granted organic chemistry is more closely relevant to human biology generally, but the standard I'm setting is "necessary to understand what is later taught in medical school and/or necessary to the daily practice of medicine." I think it's a mistake to just assume that general "sciencey" stuff is a relevant prerequisite to the study of medicine, and to pick one particularly difficult science course to weed out would-be physicians.

    Keep in mind that our system of physician selection is simultaneously "weeding back in" and credentialing people as physicians who did poorly in organic chemistry and other "prerequisites" relative to the (race and sex blind) average, and these people are free to practice medicine on you (and you may not always know it).

    I suppose a good test of this would be to have practicing physicians sit down and take a college organic chemistry final cold. If they're not able to score very high to perfect on the examination, that would be an indication that mastery of organic chemistry is not directly relevant and/or foundational to the practice of medicine. I would surmise that, for example, rocket scientists will do much better on an advanced calculus examination cold than practicing physicians would do on an organic chemistry examination cold. This is of course would be evidence that calculus is foundational to rocket science, while organic chemistry is perhaps useful but not foundational to medicine.

    All this is to say that I think rather than "weeding out" aspirants with difficult courses of study which are only questionably relevant to the study of medicine, the prerequisites should be directly relevant and the physician selection system should harvest the cream of that crop.

    Replies: @HA

    “Very well but if what you’re valuing is a “weed out” course that winnows down aspiring doctors by intelligence, why not astrophysics? (or why not a simple IQ proxy test like the SAT?) Astrophysics is similarly difficult and would weed out second rate minds just as well if not better than organic chemistry.”

    That’s debatable. Moreover, while there are numerous doctors who get by learning the bare minimum of organic chemistry needed to pass their exams and then immediately forget it until their next evaluation (at which point the learn-just-enough process repeats), we do want at least some significant portion of the graduating class to know organic chemistry well (or the immunology, biochemistry, etc. which require a working knowledge of organic chemistry — but no familiarity with astrophysics) since they’ll be participating in the development of new medicines and treatments. We also need a few of them in every hospital so that the slackers in the remainder of the graduating class can call them for a consult when something related to organic chemistry comes up, just like they relied on them during those pre-med cram sessions to pass.

    Once you lower the bar far enough, the only people left who devote enough attention to topics as difficult as organic chemistry will be total nerds, and that’s kind of like what we’re going to get anyway once robots take over medicine, and that’s probably already in the works, and not necessarily something to forward to. Too many of the other pre-meds will spend all their extra time on dating apps, scoring even more recreational drugs, or editing their screenplays and their supposedly novel ideals for the next brilliant-but-troubled TV doctor.

    Look at Soviet medicine. They took your advice, and what happened? Medicine became a predominantly female, low-paying (and much lower-status) profession. Anyone with any sense there had to seek out Western doctors instead — assuming they could scrape up some real Western currency in sufficient amounts to bribe officials to look the other way and pay for those doctors and that travel.

    Things are not ideal with the current state of medicine. But in proposing alternatives, be really careful about what you wish for.

    • Agree: Twinkie
  138. @Alec Leamas (hard at work)
    @Black Athena


    If this artificial barrier was concocted to “weed out” women and minorities it has failed miserably. More than half of all medical school students in the US are now females, while non-whites of both sexes, led by asians, are now the majority. This is true at Harvard Medical School as well.

    Everyone, except asians, is under-represented in Medical Colleges. With native Americans being the least represented at 0.16% of matriculants, followed by hispanics at 6.8%, african-americans at 7.9% and whites at 44.7%. Disregarding the Other, Mixed and Unknown categories.
     
    I think you've grasped the point I was trying to make. I'm not sure that Asians cramming organic chemistry to ace undergraduate tests so that they can become physicians in high numbers would necessarily improve the quality of care if organic chemistry is not an actual, foundational requisite to understand what is taught in medical school. I'm open to the idea that it is, in fact, an important prerequisite to medical study, but I'm less than convinced.

    Additionally, if affirmative action applicants are waiving out of mastery of organic chemistry with grades in undergraduate organic chemistry which would disqualify Asian and white males from admission to any U.S. medical school, how important could mastery of organic chemistry be to the subsequent mastery of medical school material?

    In my experience, there are people who learn quickly without mastery and understanding, while there are people who need more time but can learn subjects with greater depth and mastery given the time. So, even if good grades in organic chemistry are not a mere barrier to entry and are important prerequisites to the study of medicine, it would seem that our system of selecting doctors prizes cramming over mastery insofar as the organic chemistry (and other) requisite courses move quickly. And if your objection here is "but then the people who learn quickly are better so weed out the others," you still haven't accounted for Asians and others grinding organic chemistry outside of the context of formal education.

    I've said before that I think a normal but bright American kid who played baseball and kissed girls and had friends ought to be able to become a medical doctor. Any system which makes this impossible because he is up against the children of tiger moms who abuse their children by forcing extensive hours of cramming on them is not one that is going to produce the kinds of doctors whom you will want to patronize.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Jenner Ickham Errican, @HA

    I’ve said before that I think a normal but bright American kid who played baseball and kissed girls and had friends ought to be able to become a medical doctor.

    Just like “a normal but athletic American kid who kissed and had friends” ought to be able to be a professional baseball player.

    I got news for you. One, in real life, excellence is innate ability + effort (aka conscientiousness, which is highly correlated to life outcomes in most fields). It’s always people who drone about “Asian grinds” who seem to be under the mistaken impression that somehow untalented Asians who work hard are outcompeting white geniuses who don’t work hard. In the real world, talented people who work hard, white or Asian, are competing against other talented people who work hard. All the geniuses I know work maniacally hard.

    Two, kids who work hard still kiss girls and have friends. It’s just that if they are wise enough to delay gratification, they don’t do those things to the detriment of their intellectual and scholastic development while they are growing.

    It’s always amusing when I see people who rail against, say, black youths for “kissing girls and having friends” as having the inability to delay gratification and think long term compared to, say, white kids, but who, then, turn around and critique Asian kids for doing the same compared to white kids. It’s the the typical, “People who drive slower than I do are morons, but those who drive faster are crazies.”

    • Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican
    @Twinkie


    effort (aka conscientiousness, which is highly correlated to life outcomes in most fields)
     
    Conscientiousness doesn’t mean mere effort, there’s a moral implication as well: A hardworking “grind” can pass all the tests and collect credentials and still be callous towards patients and give shitty medical care. That likelihood may increase if the grind is dealing with patients not of his or her race.

    conscientious adjective

    1. (of a person) wishing to do what is right, esp. to do one's work or duty well and thoroughly: a conscientious and hardworking clerk.
    2. relating to a person's conscience: the act does not provide exemption from service on the basis of personal conscientious beliefs.

     

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGMYP9Lgf94

    https://twitter.com/hythloday_/status/1452735123355541508
    , @Alec Leamas (hard at work)
    @Twinkie


    Just like “a normal but athletic American kid who kissed and had friends” ought to be able to be a professional baseball player.

     

    You're slipping the rabbit into the hat here. If he has the sufficient athletic abilities and skills to play professional baseball, then yes. But professional baseball isn't "hack-able" in the way that the current U.S. academic system is. If you can't hit a curveball, there aren't enough private lessons to help you fake competency. Additionally, professional baseball scours North America, Central America, the Caribbean and parts of Asia for teens with raw baseball talent and helps to develop it and it's evident that the MLB doesn't slot players by race.

    Further, I didn't write that any normal American kid ought to be able to become a physician regardless of natural abilities - I simply wrote that the physician selection process ought not be weeding these kids out in favor of the de facto sweat shop grinders who are the products of tiger moms.

    It's as much a criticism of the American educational system, which doesn't do a good job of identifying naturally talented kids and competently teaching them organic chemistry and the like. So the system distributes its spoils to grinders with pushy parents and those without the natural ability to learn the practice of medicine but who fill diversity slots. This is, again, not a recipe for quality patient care.

    I got news for you. One, in real life, excellence is innate ability + effort (aka conscientiousness, which is highly correlated to life outcomes in most fields). It’s always people who drone about “Asian grinds” who seem to be under the mistaken impression that somehow untalented Asians who work hard are outcompeting white geniuses who don’t work hard. In the real world, talented people who work hard, white or Asian, are competing against other talented people who work hard. All the geniuses I know work maniacally hard.
     
    No. In my example of the East Asian and South Asian grinders, it is their families' effort and monomaniacal focus that puts them where they wind up rather than innate drive. In my experience, these kinds of people are very, very unhappy in adulthood. Unhappy people are unlikely to deliver good medical care.

    And there is a difference in learning between someone who can apply the formula because of raw repetition, and someone who comes to understand the material. Yes, I am stating that (commensurate with standardized test scores over time) grinders are able to "hack" the U.S. educational regime and acquire premiums over and above their native intelligence. Steve posts SAT scores over time, and the Asians' scores have exploded since the mid-1990s, when the SAT was "recentered" and decoupled from a raw IQ proxy examination (so as to goose up the scores of females and non-whites). In other words, Asian intelligence hasn't increased over this time, but as the SAT became more susceptible to preparation, Asian scores have continued to rise at a rate well above all other ethnic categories. In sum, they're grinding their way to high scores. The Colleges and Universities obviously know this, but are stuck in a Scylla and Charybdis situation in which reverting to the original form and centering of the SAT would expose the extent of the corruption of their diversity policies, so they simply limit the number of Asian grinders by dismissing their score premiums and (probably accurately) citing their lack of "roundness" as applicants.

    Two, kids who work hard still kiss girls and have friends. It’s just that if they are wise enough to delay gratification, they don’t do those things to the detriment of their intellectual and scholastic development while they are growing.
     
    My point is that it is increasingly becoming the case that you can't be a very bright normal American kid with normal American kid interests who demonstrates academic rigor and become a high achieving adult. Fifteen year old kids shouldn't have "jobs" with their entire lifetime fate at stake, and which make them choose between normal human development milestones and future career success. I'm not saying you shouldn't divide the academic wheat from the chaff, but rather that you should beware not to discard lots of wholesome immature wheat before its time.

    It’s always amusing when I see people who rail against, say, black youths for “kissing girls and having friends” as having the inability to delay gratification and think long term compared to, say, white kids, but who, then, turn around and critique Asian kids for doing the same compared to white kids. It’s the the typical, “People who drive slower than I do are morons, but those who drive faster are crazies.”
     
    No one "rails" against black youths for "kissing girls and having friends." They "rail" against black youths for exhibiting antisocial and criminal behavior, for impregnating other "youths," and for not being at all engaged in school (i.e., attending) but then having organized black ethnic lobbying groups complain about diminished opportunities for blacks and subsequently having utterly unearned opportunities awarded to them.

    I'm not critiquing Asian kids for "delaying gratification," I'm critiquing a system of higher education and physician selection that favors the grinding kids of pushy parents who have mentally abused those children in order to "win" at this stupid game that probably nets substandard patient care. (Preventable medical errors are a leading cause of death in the U.S., and greater in number than motor vehicle accidents). I'm also critiquing a system that favors unqualified dullards lacking innate scholastic aptitude because they have a uterus and/or elevated levels of melanin.

    Evidently, you're critiquing the parents of very bright white kids who don't schedule every waking hour with private mathematics and science lessons and who instead rely upon the U.S. education system which they pay for to educate their children competently.

    Finally, having friends, playing baseball, and kissing girls as a teenager is not some "gratification" that you're only supposed to get at 28 when you've successfully completed a medical residency, you absolute twit. It's a normal part of human social development which makes a person physically, mentally and emotionally balanced and healthy.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  139. @Brutusale
    Well boys and girls, I'm putting it to the test. I'm having knee replacement surgery tomorrow, and my surgeon is the whitest knee guy on the MGH staff. That and his education at Wisconsin, Duke and Johns Hopkins.

    The girlfriend says that I should have gone with the Korean.

    Replies: @Cortes, @mulga mumblebrain, @Father O'Hara

    Best wishes for a great outcome.

    • Replies: @Brutusale
    @Cortes

    Thanks!

  140. @Twinkie
    @Black Athena


    Would you like such doctors operating on you today
     
    Yes, I prefer surgeons who were intelligent and hard-working enough to have passed orgo than those who could not or would not. As another comment pointed out, orgo is also a foundational course for others that are directly relevant to the practice of medicine. Physicians aren’t just nurse practitioners with fancier credentialing - they have to be able to understand the human body in toto, not just be able to perform a set of techniques mechanically.

    Replies: @Joe Stalin, @Alec Leamas (hard at work), @Art Deco

    Physicians aren’t just nurse practitioners with fancier credentialing – they have to be able to understand the human body in toto, not just be able to perform a set of techniques mechanically.

    Have you visited a primary care doctor? Ever?

    • LOL: Bumpkin
    • Replies: @mulga mumblebrain
    @Art Deco

    Doctors in the US system are medical businessmen. They need to know how to overcharge, serve BigPharma, private insurance and private hospitals, and bury their mistakes. Medical mishap is, supposedly, the third leading cause of death in the USA, but I'd bet it's higher.

    Replies: @Art Deco

  141. @Expletive Deleted
    @Jim Don Bob

    Me grandma had better doormats. And she wasn't rich, worked a loom from 14 to well past 60.

    Replies: @Expletive Deleted, @Father O'Hara

    Might be something else you can yank on with her!

  142. @Twinkie
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)


    I’ve said before that I think a normal but bright American kid who played baseball and kissed girls and had friends ought to be able to become a medical doctor.
     
    Just like “a normal but athletic American kid who kissed and had friends” ought to be able to be a professional baseball player.

    I got news for you. One, in real life, excellence is innate ability + effort (aka conscientiousness, which is highly correlated to life outcomes in most fields). It’s always people who drone about “Asian grinds” who seem to be under the mistaken impression that somehow untalented Asians who work hard are outcompeting white geniuses who don’t work hard. In the real world, talented people who work hard, white or Asian, are competing against other talented people who work hard. All the geniuses I know work maniacally hard.

    Two, kids who work hard still kiss girls and have friends. It’s just that if they are wise enough to delay gratification, they don’t do those things to the detriment of their intellectual and scholastic development while they are growing.

    It’s always amusing when I see people who rail against, say, black youths for “kissing girls and having friends” as having the inability to delay gratification and think long term compared to, say, white kids, but who, then, turn around and critique Asian kids for doing the same compared to white kids. It’s the the typical, “People who drive slower than I do are morons, but those who drive faster are crazies.”

    Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican, @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    effort (aka conscientiousness, which is highly correlated to life outcomes in most fields)

    Conscientiousness doesn’t mean mere effort, there’s a moral implication as well: A hardworking “grind” can pass all the tests and collect credentials and still be callous towards patients and give shitty medical care. That likelihood may increase if the grind is dealing with patients not of his or her race.

    conscientious adjective

    1. (of a person) wishing to do what is right, esp. to do one’s work or duty well and thoroughly: a conscientious and hardworking clerk.
    2. relating to a person’s conscience: the act does not provide exemption from service on the basis of personal conscientious beliefs.

  143. @Alec Leamas (hard at work)
    @Black Athena


    If this artificial barrier was concocted to “weed out” women and minorities it has failed miserably. More than half of all medical school students in the US are now females, while non-whites of both sexes, led by asians, are now the majority. This is true at Harvard Medical School as well.

    Everyone, except asians, is under-represented in Medical Colleges. With native Americans being the least represented at 0.16% of matriculants, followed by hispanics at 6.8%, african-americans at 7.9% and whites at 44.7%. Disregarding the Other, Mixed and Unknown categories.
     
    I think you've grasped the point I was trying to make. I'm not sure that Asians cramming organic chemistry to ace undergraduate tests so that they can become physicians in high numbers would necessarily improve the quality of care if organic chemistry is not an actual, foundational requisite to understand what is taught in medical school. I'm open to the idea that it is, in fact, an important prerequisite to medical study, but I'm less than convinced.

    Additionally, if affirmative action applicants are waiving out of mastery of organic chemistry with grades in undergraduate organic chemistry which would disqualify Asian and white males from admission to any U.S. medical school, how important could mastery of organic chemistry be to the subsequent mastery of medical school material?

    In my experience, there are people who learn quickly without mastery and understanding, while there are people who need more time but can learn subjects with greater depth and mastery given the time. So, even if good grades in organic chemistry are not a mere barrier to entry and are important prerequisites to the study of medicine, it would seem that our system of selecting doctors prizes cramming over mastery insofar as the organic chemistry (and other) requisite courses move quickly. And if your objection here is "but then the people who learn quickly are better so weed out the others," you still haven't accounted for Asians and others grinding organic chemistry outside of the context of formal education.

    I've said before that I think a normal but bright American kid who played baseball and kissed girls and had friends ought to be able to become a medical doctor. Any system which makes this impossible because he is up against the children of tiger moms who abuse their children by forcing extensive hours of cramming on them is not one that is going to produce the kinds of doctors whom you will want to patronize.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Jenner Ickham Errican, @HA

    Any system which makes this impossible because he is up against the children of tiger moms who abuse their children by forcing extensive hours of cramming on them is not one that is going to produce the kinds of doctors whom you will want to patronize.

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/harvard-crimson-miasma-theory-of-white-supremacy/#comment-4974996

  144. She writes well, but hysterically, poor thing. Does she mourn murdered black men, or murdered Gazan children so deeply, I wonder? One could just as easily see Breonna’s murder as an impulse to achieve something, and not be marginalised and disposed of. Some people enjoy being sad and depressed, it being their habitual state of mind. Happiness, being alien, appears threatening. It’s pretty plain that the USA is a sad, sick, society.

  145. @Art Deco
    @Twinkie

    Physicians aren’t just nurse practitioners with fancier credentialing – they have to be able to understand the human body in toto, not just be able to perform a set of techniques mechanically.

    Have you visited a primary care doctor? Ever?

    Replies: @mulga mumblebrain

    Doctors in the US system are medical businessmen. They need to know how to overcharge, serve BigPharma, private insurance and private hospitals, and bury their mistakes. Medical mishap is, supposedly, the third leading cause of death in the USA, but I’d bet it’s higher.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @mulga mumblebrain

    Actually, they're commonly salaried employees and subject to all sorts of chicken-shit from bean counters.

    Physicians incomes are handsome but not extreme, especially when you consider their working hours and stress levels. Their annual cash compensation is shy of 3x the mean for the workforce as a whole. You cycle back to 1929, what available data indicates that annual net fee income for physicians was around 5x mean compensation per worker in the economy as a whole. Some of the data can be found here

    https://fraser.stlouisfed.org/files/docs/publications/SCB/pages/1950-1954/4374_1950-1954.pdf

    and some in the interactive tables of the Bureau of Economic Analysis.


    Medical mishap is, supposedly, the third leading cause of death in the USA, but I’d bet it’s higher.

    You'd benefit from suggesting people who make such claims show their work.

  146. @Alec Leamas (hard at work)
    @Black Athena


    If this artificial barrier was concocted to “weed out” women and minorities it has failed miserably. More than half of all medical school students in the US are now females, while non-whites of both sexes, led by asians, are now the majority. This is true at Harvard Medical School as well.

    Everyone, except asians, is under-represented in Medical Colleges. With native Americans being the least represented at 0.16% of matriculants, followed by hispanics at 6.8%, african-americans at 7.9% and whites at 44.7%. Disregarding the Other, Mixed and Unknown categories.
     
    I think you've grasped the point I was trying to make. I'm not sure that Asians cramming organic chemistry to ace undergraduate tests so that they can become physicians in high numbers would necessarily improve the quality of care if organic chemistry is not an actual, foundational requisite to understand what is taught in medical school. I'm open to the idea that it is, in fact, an important prerequisite to medical study, but I'm less than convinced.

    Additionally, if affirmative action applicants are waiving out of mastery of organic chemistry with grades in undergraduate organic chemistry which would disqualify Asian and white males from admission to any U.S. medical school, how important could mastery of organic chemistry be to the subsequent mastery of medical school material?

    In my experience, there are people who learn quickly without mastery and understanding, while there are people who need more time but can learn subjects with greater depth and mastery given the time. So, even if good grades in organic chemistry are not a mere barrier to entry and are important prerequisites to the study of medicine, it would seem that our system of selecting doctors prizes cramming over mastery insofar as the organic chemistry (and other) requisite courses move quickly. And if your objection here is "but then the people who learn quickly are better so weed out the others," you still haven't accounted for Asians and others grinding organic chemistry outside of the context of formal education.

    I've said before that I think a normal but bright American kid who played baseball and kissed girls and had friends ought to be able to become a medical doctor. Any system which makes this impossible because he is up against the children of tiger moms who abuse their children by forcing extensive hours of cramming on them is not one that is going to produce the kinds of doctors whom you will want to patronize.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Jenner Ickham Errican, @HA

    “Any system which makes this impossible because he is up against the children of tiger moms who abuse their children by forcing extensive hours of cramming on them is not one that is going to produce the kinds of doctors whom you will want to patronize.”

    If I understand you, you’re saying we’ll get more doctors “who played baseball and kissed girls and had friends” if we do away with organic chemistry requirements. Consider the more likely alternative of simply getting a lower tier of children with tiger moms, since even as it is, they are already willing to work for less than those baseball jocks and in small towns that have trouble retaining doctors.

    That means we’ll just be loading the medical establishment with more foreign doctors — not to mention cruelly depriving third world countries of an even greater portion of the native doctors that they raised and nurtured, only to see them skip off to some more developed country at the earliest opportunity, which is a far more egregious expropriation of “resources” than colonialism ever was. And of course you’ll also be loading it with those who are washing out of the current curriculum, like the woman in question. Honestly, if it’s between her and some baseball jock, who do you think is going to get that residency?

    If you just want a doctor who’ll chat with you about the ball game to help distract you during the digital exam, (or are sore about not being able to be that doctor) I’m not sure you’ll solve any of that by messing with organic chemistry prerequisites. Other factors are at play.

    • LOL: Twinkie
    • Replies: @Alden
    @HA

    I have several on going medical problems. ALL my Drs but the retina surgeon are White American men younger than 45. I got them by demanding White American men from United Health. The customer service people at United health are Hispanic women who did what I told them to do and found White American men in the neighborhood.

    , @Alec Leamas (hard at work)
    @HA


    If I understand you, you’re saying we’ll get more doctors “who played baseball and kissed girls and had friends” if we do away with organic chemistry requirements.
     
    I don't think you understand me. I'm writing that we should take a critical eye towards the prerequisite courses for the study of medicine in order to determine whether they're actually useful and necessary, or whether they're just difficult hoops of rather remote relevance to the practice of medicine which remain in place in order to winnow down aspirant doctors. If the former, then by all means keep it. If the latter, then we should change the course or prerequisites to the study of medicine. But a largely irrelevant prerequisite is particularly pernicious if it is selecting for grinders with a stomach for monotony and repetition over aspirants with actual innate talent.

    Consider the more likely alternative of simply getting a lower tier of children with tiger moms, since even as it is, they are already willing to work for less than those baseball jocks and in small towns that have trouble retaining doctors.
     
    Perhaps. But perhaps not. If the remaining prerequisites are less susceptible to hacking by grinding (where small differences in scores can be dispositive - but only for whites and Asians) and they're more relevant to the study of medicine then we're making some progress.

    If you just want a doctor who’ll chat with you about the ball game to help distract you during the digital exam, (or are sore about not being able to be that doctor) I’m not sure you’ll solve any of that by messing with organic chemistry prerequisites. Other factors are at play.
     
    I'm laboring under the impression that a physician needs a dual skill set. On the one hand, the physician must know the science of the human body. On the other hand, the physician should have a suite of communicative abilities necessary to diagnose and inform his patients who do not have a deep understanding of the science of the human body.

    The inability to communicate with the patient leads to misdiagnosis, poor prescriptive advice, and consequent negative health outcomes. This would seem to be an important point, however you seem to be more interested in making hackneyed scatological jokes for some reason.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @HA

  147. @Brutusale
    Well boys and girls, I'm putting it to the test. I'm having knee replacement surgery tomorrow, and my surgeon is the whitest knee guy on the MGH staff. That and his education at Wisconsin, Duke and Johns Hopkins.

    The girlfriend says that I should have gone with the Korean.

    Replies: @Cortes, @mulga mumblebrain, @Father O'Hara

    Should go with weight loss and physio. I’ll spare you the method in which….I’ll spare you.

    • Replies: @Brutusale
    @mulga mumblebrain

    My doc has performed literally thousands of knee exams, and he called mine one of the most structurally compromised he'd ever seen.

    Out of options.

  148. @Obstinate Cymric
    @Rob

    The problem with humidity, as anyone who's got an old property or one that's been empty a long time knows, is that its not good for building fabric. Moulds grow (can cause respiratory disease), plaster falls off walls, paper, wood and a lot of other things rot. That's why the first thing you do if you buy a derelict place is get a decent roof on it.

    When they dug Captain Scott's hut, abandoned since 1917, out of the Antarctic ice in 1956, it was in good condition. Low humidity preserves things.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott's_Hut


    I imagine for office buildings the thing to do would be to humidify during the day but dehumidify at night and weekends. Otherwise you'll get condensation in cold spots and roof voids for starters.

    Replies: @FPD72, @Alden

    Agree agree agree agree agree a thousand times.

  149. @HA
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    "Any system which makes this impossible because he is up against the children of tiger moms who abuse their children by forcing extensive hours of cramming on them is not one that is going to produce the kinds of doctors whom you will want to patronize."

    If I understand you, you're saying we'll get more doctors "who played baseball and kissed girls and had friends" if we do away with organic chemistry requirements. Consider the more likely alternative of simply getting a lower tier of children with tiger moms, since even as it is, they are already willing to work for less than those baseball jocks and in small towns that have trouble retaining doctors.

    That means we'll just be loading the medical establishment with more foreign doctors -- not to mention cruelly depriving third world countries of an even greater portion of the native doctors that they raised and nurtured, only to see them skip off to some more developed country at the earliest opportunity, which is a far more egregious expropriation of "resources" than colonialism ever was. And of course you'll also be loading it with those who are washing out of the current curriculum, like the woman in question. Honestly, if it's between her and some baseball jock, who do you think is going to get that residency?

    If you just want a doctor who'll chat with you about the ball game to help distract you during the digital exam, (or are sore about not being able to be that doctor) I'm not sure you'll solve any of that by messing with organic chemistry prerequisites. Other factors are at play.

    Replies: @Alden, @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    I have several on going medical problems. ALL my Drs but the retina surgeon are White American men younger than 45. I got them by demanding White American men from United Health. The customer service people at United health are Hispanic women who did what I told them to do and found White American men in the neighborhood.

  150. Thanks Steve. Sending this to the grandkids. Your articles about Wokism have greatly helped to oppose their school brainwashing.

  151. … Little did I realize that the most radical act of resistance would have been choosing my wellness and my health.

    What’s the difference between wellness and health?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @NickG

    Health is not being sick. Wellness is being at the spa.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @NickG

  152. @NickG

    … Little did I realize that the most radical act of resistance would have been choosing my wellness and my health.
     
    What's the difference between wellness and health?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Health is not being sick. Wellness is being at the spa.

    • LOL: Twinkie
    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Steve Sailer

    https://blog.onedaykorea.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/blog-one-day-korea-jimjilbang-spa-sauna.jpg

    , @NickG
    @Steve Sailer


    Health is not being sick. Wellness is being at the spa.
     
    I came to the conclusion that 'wellness' had something to do with Gwyneth Paltrow's vagina.
  153. @Cortes
    @Brutusale

    Best wishes for a great outcome.

    Replies: @Brutusale

    Thanks!

  154. @mulga mumblebrain
    @Brutusale

    Should go with weight loss and physio. I'll spare you the method in which....I'll spare you.

    Replies: @Brutusale

    My doc has performed literally thousands of knee exams, and he called mine one of the most structurally compromised he’d ever seen.

    Out of options.

  155. She was asked to do some calculations, stoichiometry, which require a modest level of mathematical competence, and she could not do the work.

    This is ok. Many people cannot do this work and choose fields more commensurate with their talents.

    But instead of asking herself whether she is up to the demands placed on those who aspire to medical school it was easier to blame whitey for her failure.

  156. @mulga mumblebrain
    @Art Deco

    Doctors in the US system are medical businessmen. They need to know how to overcharge, serve BigPharma, private insurance and private hospitals, and bury their mistakes. Medical mishap is, supposedly, the third leading cause of death in the USA, but I'd bet it's higher.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    Actually, they’re commonly salaried employees and subject to all sorts of chicken-shit from bean counters.

    Physicians incomes are handsome but not extreme, especially when you consider their working hours and stress levels. Their annual cash compensation is shy of 3x the mean for the workforce as a whole. You cycle back to 1929, what available data indicates that annual net fee income for physicians was around 5x mean compensation per worker in the economy as a whole. Some of the data can be found here

    https://fraser.stlouisfed.org/files/docs/publications/SCB/pages/1950-1954/4374_1950-1954.pdf

    and some in the interactive tables of the Bureau of Economic Analysis.

    Medical mishap is, supposedly, the third leading cause of death in the USA, but I’d bet it’s higher.

    You’d benefit from suggesting people who make such claims show their work.

    • Agree: Twinkie
  157. @Seneca44
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    I would be in the minority of practicing physicians who believe that courses like Organic Chemistry are useful in that I cannot imagine taking and comprehending subsequent courses like Immunology, Physiology, Pharmacology, and Biochemistry which rely on some understanding of basic Organic Chem concepts. Structure activity relationships of new drugs are still fascinating to a definite minority of physicians. While it could certainly be argued that doctors don't need the detailed understanding of these basic sciences, I would argue that the exposure to these courses is what separates us from PA's, NP's and other LELTs (Less Education Less Training)

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Black Athena

    I would be in the minority of practicing physicians who believe that courses like Organic Chemistry are useful

    You are right about that. And that is why the excessive importance (40-50% of MCAT questions) given to Organic Chemistry is a hurdle premed students shouldn’t have to face. Shame on the gloaters here who are mocking this girl for getting stopped by it.

    https://admissionsconsultants.com/medical/organic-chemistry-requirement-med-school/

    It has become a tradition for pre-med students to fear and complain about the dreaded organic chemistry course. As much as they hate it, organic chemistry is a requirement for getting into most medical schools. However, some schools are beginning to question if it should be a determining factor in whether a student is able to pursue a career in medicine.

    some outside thinkers in the world of academic medicine are wondering whether organic chemistry should be an absolute requirement for all pre-med students. In fact, they suggest that requiring organic chemistry might exclude some very talented and bright students from continuing on the pre-med path.

    “I think organic chemistry, in its purest form, has less relevance to the modern physician than his predecessor decades ago” said Dr. Tim Wu, an assistant professor of surgery at University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine.

    The Dean for Medical Education, Dr. David Muller, is one of the driving forces behind The Icahn School’s curriculum change. “I believe there is a trend away from requiring organic chemistry, and that the momentum will pick up in the next two to three years,” he said. “Most educators agree that clinically relevant biochemistry and molecular biology are far more useful than Orgo.”

    Harvard Medical School is currently in the process of altering its curriculum to place less of a focus on organic chemistry. Harvard is considering interdisciplinary courses that combine biology and chemistry as a substitute for two semesters of organic and inorganic chemistry.

    • Replies: @HA
    @Black Athena

    "And that is why the excessive importance (40-50% of MCAT questions) given to Organic Chemistry is a hurdle premed students shouldn’t have to face."

    At least "Alec Leamas (hard at work)" had the decency to try and pretend this was about giving patients something they prefer. You can't even be bothered with that. For you it's all about what students should get. A doctor's (not to mention a Harvard student's) sense of entitlement is already grossly inflated, in general -- you want to puff it up even more.

    Medicine should be in the practice of making better doctors not about shaming those who have the audacity to think that the ability to tackle organic chemistry is something a good practitioner needs. It's not about your right to become a doctor -- that right doesn't exist.

    Simply lowering standards -- the way the Soviets did -- allowed a large number of historically discriminated people to become doctors (i.e. women) but I'd wager few who had to live through that system believed that patients as a whole benefitted.

    Kyla could have also gone to some Caribbean med school where standards are a lot less stringent. That's still an option, with plenty of sunshine and gorgeous beaches to boot. But for some strange reason, the doctors coming from there are not as regarded as those who made it through the US system. Ponder on why that is a little more, and less on grievance hustling and how to make US medical education less like those in the Caribbean.

    Replies: @Black Athena

  158. @Gamecock

    But no more. I have chosen a path to justice and healing that is rooted in self-love and preservation.
     
    M'kay. What are you going to do for money?

    Replies: @Anarchoproctologist, @John Milton's Ghost

    Mau-mau’ing gullible fools is pretty lucrative. Ask Henry Rogers “Ibram X.” Kendi.

  159. @The Alarmist
    Oh dear God in Heaven, why can’t this tortured waif deal with her trials and tribulations by cutting or starving herself like the privileged White girls?

    Replies: @Sick 'n Tired

    “My teenage son has started cutting himself, he says it’s because he wants to feel something. I say what’s wrong with feeling nothing inside like the rest of us?” ~ Norm MacDonald

  160. She wants YT dead!!!!

  161. @Matttt
    One of the harder aspects of elite schools is that so many of your fellow students are just better than you. Not just better in grades: better looking, smarter, nicer, more talented, etc. It's even worse when the very accomplished white (or Jewish) males don't look like they're even trying. While you stayed up late studying for orgo and got a D, and the white guy that got an A was watching the Dodgers-Giants game.

    You can either accept your limitations, or ascribe their accomplishments and your failures to something external. Kyla chose option 2.

    Replies: @Father O'Hara

    Bill Gates talked about how proud he was of his math talents til he got to Hahvahd and saw how much more talented other people were.

    That’s when he decided:”Someday I will destroy mankind!”

  162. @Brutusale
    Well boys and girls, I'm putting it to the test. I'm having knee replacement surgery tomorrow, and my surgeon is the whitest knee guy on the MGH staff. That and his education at Wisconsin, Duke and Johns Hopkins.

    The girlfriend says that I should have gone with the Korean.

    Replies: @Cortes, @mulga mumblebrain, @Father O'Hara

    Knee replacement? What do they do with the old one?

    …”Great news,Mbongo! Dr. Mfasi has located a knee for you! We operate tomorrow! It will cost you only three head of cattle!”

  163. @Obstinate Cymric
    @fish

    "the weekend at the college didn’t turn out like she planned"

    "The things you do for pre-Med she can't understand".


    (Odd really, she's been telling me she was a genius since she was 17)

    Replies: @Father O'Hara

    I did not think white men could be so cruel
    And I’m never going back to my med school!

    It seems so clear
    That its over now
    Drink your big black cow
    And get out of here…

  164. @Fran Macadam
    Turn the bell curve upside down and call it good?

    Replies: @mulga mumblebrain

    Call it a ‘luvin’ cup’, sugar.

  165. @Steve Sailer
    @NickG

    Health is not being sick. Wellness is being at the spa.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @NickG

  166. @Steve Sailer
    @NickG

    Health is not being sick. Wellness is being at the spa.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @NickG

    Health is not being sick. Wellness is being at the spa.

    I came to the conclusion that ‘wellness’ had something to do with Gwyneth Paltrow’s vagina.

  167. @Twinkie
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)


    I’ve said before that I think a normal but bright American kid who played baseball and kissed girls and had friends ought to be able to become a medical doctor.
     
    Just like “a normal but athletic American kid who kissed and had friends” ought to be able to be a professional baseball player.

    I got news for you. One, in real life, excellence is innate ability + effort (aka conscientiousness, which is highly correlated to life outcomes in most fields). It’s always people who drone about “Asian grinds” who seem to be under the mistaken impression that somehow untalented Asians who work hard are outcompeting white geniuses who don’t work hard. In the real world, talented people who work hard, white or Asian, are competing against other talented people who work hard. All the geniuses I know work maniacally hard.

    Two, kids who work hard still kiss girls and have friends. It’s just that if they are wise enough to delay gratification, they don’t do those things to the detriment of their intellectual and scholastic development while they are growing.

    It’s always amusing when I see people who rail against, say, black youths for “kissing girls and having friends” as having the inability to delay gratification and think long term compared to, say, white kids, but who, then, turn around and critique Asian kids for doing the same compared to white kids. It’s the the typical, “People who drive slower than I do are morons, but those who drive faster are crazies.”

    Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican, @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    Just like “a normal but athletic American kid who kissed and had friends” ought to be able to be a professional baseball player.

    You’re slipping the rabbit into the hat here. If he has the sufficient athletic abilities and skills to play professional baseball, then yes. But professional baseball isn’t “hack-able” in the way that the current U.S. academic system is. If you can’t hit a curveball, there aren’t enough private lessons to help you fake competency. Additionally, professional baseball scours North America, Central America, the Caribbean and parts of Asia for teens with raw baseball talent and helps to develop it and it’s evident that the MLB doesn’t slot players by race.

    Further, I didn’t write that any normal American kid ought to be able to become a physician regardless of natural abilities – I simply wrote that the physician selection process ought not be weeding these kids out in favor of the de facto sweat shop grinders who are the products of tiger moms.

    It’s as much a criticism of the American educational system, which doesn’t do a good job of identifying naturally talented kids and competently teaching them organic chemistry and the like. So the system distributes its spoils to grinders with pushy parents and those without the natural ability to learn the practice of medicine but who fill diversity slots. This is, again, not a recipe for quality patient care.

    I got news for you. One, in real life, excellence is innate ability + effort (aka conscientiousness, which is highly correlated to life outcomes in most fields). It’s always people who drone about “Asian grinds” who seem to be under the mistaken impression that somehow untalented Asians who work hard are outcompeting white geniuses who don’t work hard. In the real world, talented people who work hard, white or Asian, are competing against other talented people who work hard. All the geniuses I know work maniacally hard.

    No. In my example of the East Asian and South Asian grinders, it is their families’ effort and monomaniacal focus that puts them where they wind up rather than innate drive. In my experience, these kinds of people are very, very unhappy in adulthood. Unhappy people are unlikely to deliver good medical care.

    And there is a difference in learning between someone who can apply the formula because of raw repetition, and someone who comes to understand the material. Yes, I am stating that (commensurate with standardized test scores over time) grinders are able to “hack” the U.S. educational regime and acquire premiums over and above their native intelligence. Steve posts SAT scores over time, and the Asians’ scores have exploded since the mid-1990s, when the SAT was “recentered” and decoupled from a raw IQ proxy examination (so as to goose up the scores of females and non-whites). In other words, Asian intelligence hasn’t increased over this time, but as the SAT became more susceptible to preparation, Asian scores have continued to rise at a rate well above all other ethnic categories. In sum, they’re grinding their way to high scores. The Colleges and Universities obviously know this, but are stuck in a Scylla and Charybdis situation in which reverting to the original form and centering of the SAT would expose the extent of the corruption of their diversity policies, so they simply limit the number of Asian grinders by dismissing their score premiums and (probably accurately) citing their lack of “roundness” as applicants.

    Two, kids who work hard still kiss girls and have friends. It’s just that if they are wise enough to delay gratification, they don’t do those things to the detriment of their intellectual and scholastic development while they are growing.

    My point is that it is increasingly becoming the case that you can’t be a very bright normal American kid with normal American kid interests who demonstrates academic rigor and become a high achieving adult. Fifteen year old kids shouldn’t have “jobs” with their entire lifetime fate at stake, and which make them choose between normal human development milestones and future career success. I’m not saying you shouldn’t divide the academic wheat from the chaff, but rather that you should beware not to discard lots of wholesome immature wheat before its time.

    It’s always amusing when I see people who rail against, say, black youths for “kissing girls and having friends” as having the inability to delay gratification and think long term compared to, say, white kids, but who, then, turn around and critique Asian kids for doing the same compared to white kids. It’s the the typical, “People who drive slower than I do are morons, but those who drive faster are crazies.”

    No one “rails” against black youths for “kissing girls and having friends.” They “rail” against black youths for exhibiting antisocial and criminal behavior, for impregnating other “youths,” and for not being at all engaged in school (i.e., attending) but then having organized black ethnic lobbying groups complain about diminished opportunities for blacks and subsequently having utterly unearned opportunities awarded to them.

    I’m not critiquing Asian kids for “delaying gratification,” I’m critiquing a system of higher education and physician selection that favors the grinding kids of pushy parents who have mentally abused those children in order to “win” at this stupid game that probably nets substandard patient care. (Preventable medical errors are a leading cause of death in the U.S., and greater in number than motor vehicle accidents). I’m also critiquing a system that favors unqualified dullards lacking innate scholastic aptitude because they have a uterus and/or elevated levels of melanin.

    Evidently, you’re critiquing the parents of very bright white kids who don’t schedule every waking hour with private mathematics and science lessons and who instead rely upon the U.S. education system which they pay for to educate their children competently.

    Finally, having friends, playing baseball, and kissing girls as a teenager is not some “gratification” that you’re only supposed to get at 28 when you’ve successfully completed a medical residency, you absolute twit. It’s a normal part of human social development which makes a person physically, mentally and emotionally balanced and healthy.

    • Thanks: William Badwhite
    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)


    If you can’t hit a curveball, there aren’t enough private lessons to help you fake competency.
     
    What makes you think it's any different with any number of vocations that require a high cognitive ability such as being a physician?

    the physician selection process ought not be weeding these kids out in favor of the de facto sweat shop grinders who are the products of tiger moms...

    In my example of the East Asian and South Asian grinders, it is their families’ effort and monomaniacal focus that puts them where they wind up rather than innate drive. In my experience, these kinds of people are very, very unhappy in adulthood. Unhappy people are unlikely to deliver good medical care...

    I’m critiquing a system of higher education and physician selection that favors the grinding kids of pushy parents who have mentally abused those children in order to “win” at this stupid game that probably nets substandard patient care.
     
    "In your experience," eh? This is nothing more than you starting with a prior ("Don't like Asian doctors") and manufacturing facts in your own mind to fit the prior. Your statements are simply a series of assertions without evidence.

    Let's look at some data, shall we? Let's see if these "Asian sweat shop grinders" with "unhappy adulthoods" deliver poor healthcare. It's just so happens that Charles Murray in his latest book Facing Reality collected data (proxies) relevant to this kind of a discussion. On p. 144 of his book, he writes:

    The Medical Board of California is the state agency for licensing and regulating physicians. A study of complaints, investigations, and discipline from July 2003 to June 2013 found the following proportions by race:

    California Physicians

    Physicians with Complaints European 28.0% African 43.0% Latin 36.5% Asian 24.7%
    Physicians with Investigations European 6.7% African 11.7% Latin 9.7% Asian 5.3%
    Physicians Disciplined European 1.0% African 1.5% Latin 1.9% Asian 0.8%
     
    Murray has similar data on other professions such as lawyers:

    California Attorneys

    Attorneys with 10+ Complaints Lodged European 2.8% African 7.2% Latin 5.0% Asian 2%
    Attorneys Placed on Probation European 0.6% African 1.9% Latin 1.2% Asian 0.4%
     
    Regarding these kinds of data, Murray writes:

    In the legal profession, the race differences in pass rates for the bar exam are commensurate with trace differences in cognitive ability. So are differences in the percentage of attorney who have been the subject of repeated complaints in California.

    In the medical profession, race differences in board certification for a medical specialty are commensurate with race differences in cognitive ability. So are differences in investigations of complaints filed against physicians, and in disciplinary action by the state medical board of California.
     
    These kinds of numbers show a phenomenon known as "mismatch." If underqualified people were somehow able to pass through the educational system (be it medical school or law school) without mastering the material or otherwise becoming qualified due to affirmative action, cheating, "hacking the system" (whatever that means) or any other nefarious means, you will see the resulting mismatch between the credential and the real life performance.

    So here, you can see that blacks and Hispanics have higher rates of complaints and professional disciplinary issues than whites and Asians, meaning, underqualified people were passed through the system (most likely due to affirmative action). But Asians actually have lower rates of complaints and professional disciplinary action than whites, which lends evidence toward the falsification of your assertion that "grinds" who don't acquire competency are passing through the system via some form of "hacking" the tests and are then providing lower quality service.

    Finally, having friends, playing baseball, and kissing girls as a teenager is not some “gratification” that you’re only supposed to get at 28 when you’ve successfully completed a medical residency, you absolute twit.
     
    Don't be a dumb asshole. If you don't like Asian doctors, just say it - ideas like that are perfectly acceptable on Unz. Don't make up bullshit ideas without an iota supporting evidence based on "your experience" to push your preferences. Maybe if you had grade school level reading comprehension, you'd realize your silly straw man is not what I wrote: "Two, kids who work hard still kiss girls and have friends. It’s just that if they are wise enough to delay gratification, they don’t do those things to the detriment of their intellectual and scholastic development while they are growing." Kissing girls is not an "on or off" proposition, dummy. It's a matter of scale. And if you think that Asian kids who excel and go on to successful careers don't play sports or engage in other extracurricular activities and just sit on their behinds and do test-prep, you are even more deluded than you appear already.

    As for "kissing girls," I had a rather embarrassing/amusing situation with my Chinese immigrant neighbor once. I caught his high school-age daughter having sex with her boyfriend in her dad's car parked outside my house. I talked to my wife about it and debated whether I should tell my neighbor. She told me not to do so (my argument was "If I were her dad, I'd want to know..." and her argument was "You don't want to be the bearer of that kind of bad news...").

    That girl still managed to get into the local (nationally renowned) magnet school, get into a top 20 undergrad, and is working as a high falutin' investment banker. Obviously she engaged in some boy-kissing, but didn't do it to the detriment of her scholastic development.

    I, too, have my own critique of the U.S. educational system (this is not theoretical - I have skin in the game and I homeschool my kids), but not for the made-up reasons you do.

    Replies: @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

  168. @HA
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    "Any system which makes this impossible because he is up against the children of tiger moms who abuse their children by forcing extensive hours of cramming on them is not one that is going to produce the kinds of doctors whom you will want to patronize."

    If I understand you, you're saying we'll get more doctors "who played baseball and kissed girls and had friends" if we do away with organic chemistry requirements. Consider the more likely alternative of simply getting a lower tier of children with tiger moms, since even as it is, they are already willing to work for less than those baseball jocks and in small towns that have trouble retaining doctors.

    That means we'll just be loading the medical establishment with more foreign doctors -- not to mention cruelly depriving third world countries of an even greater portion of the native doctors that they raised and nurtured, only to see them skip off to some more developed country at the earliest opportunity, which is a far more egregious expropriation of "resources" than colonialism ever was. And of course you'll also be loading it with those who are washing out of the current curriculum, like the woman in question. Honestly, if it's between her and some baseball jock, who do you think is going to get that residency?

    If you just want a doctor who'll chat with you about the ball game to help distract you during the digital exam, (or are sore about not being able to be that doctor) I'm not sure you'll solve any of that by messing with organic chemistry prerequisites. Other factors are at play.

    Replies: @Alden, @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    If I understand you, you’re saying we’ll get more doctors “who played baseball and kissed girls and had friends” if we do away with organic chemistry requirements.

    I don’t think you understand me. I’m writing that we should take a critical eye towards the prerequisite courses for the study of medicine in order to determine whether they’re actually useful and necessary, or whether they’re just difficult hoops of rather remote relevance to the practice of medicine which remain in place in order to winnow down aspirant doctors. If the former, then by all means keep it. If the latter, then we should change the course or prerequisites to the study of medicine. But a largely irrelevant prerequisite is particularly pernicious if it is selecting for grinders with a stomach for monotony and repetition over aspirants with actual innate talent.

    Consider the more likely alternative of simply getting a lower tier of children with tiger moms, since even as it is, they are already willing to work for less than those baseball jocks and in small towns that have trouble retaining doctors.

    Perhaps. But perhaps not. If the remaining prerequisites are less susceptible to hacking by grinding (where small differences in scores can be dispositive – but only for whites and Asians) and they’re more relevant to the study of medicine then we’re making some progress.

    If you just want a doctor who’ll chat with you about the ball game to help distract you during the digital exam, (or are sore about not being able to be that doctor) I’m not sure you’ll solve any of that by messing with organic chemistry prerequisites. Other factors are at play.

    I’m laboring under the impression that a physician needs a dual skill set. On the one hand, the physician must know the science of the human body. On the other hand, the physician should have a suite of communicative abilities necessary to diagnose and inform his patients who do not have a deep understanding of the science of the human body.

    The inability to communicate with the patient leads to misdiagnosis, poor prescriptive advice, and consequent negative health outcomes. This would seem to be an important point, however you seem to be more interested in making hackneyed scatological jokes for some reason.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)


    But a largely irrelevant prerequisite is particularly pernicious if it is selecting for grinders with a stomach for monotony and repetition over aspirants with actual innate talent.
     
    This exists only in your fantasy.

    This would seem to be an important point, however you seem to be more interested in making hackneyed scatological jokes for some reason.
     
    That's because he can see just as I can that you are interested in pushing your own priors, rather than what actually exists in the real world, where life outcome is cognitive ability + effort. The Asian talent-less grind vs. the white easy-going genius construct is the cope you constructed for yourself for the cold, hard truth in the U.S. - that data after data show that Asians in America have higher average cognitive ability than whites and that they tend to work harder as well. At the right tail end of those bell curve graphs, the disparity is going to be pronounced and manifest itself as Asians having higher proportions of elite vocations, including physicians.

    Replies: @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    , @HA
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    "I’m laboring under the impression that a physician needs a dual skill set. On the one hand, the physician must know the science of the human body. "

    I've known plenty of people who played baseball and aced their organic chemistry. One of my best friends in high school went to organic chemistry with me -- he's currently a successful optometrist in between his trips to Colorado to go kayaking and stuff like that. Another one was known for blowing things up to wow the freshman chemistry undergrads -- he later won a very prestigious award that you might have heard of. A few hippies, too, who gave the impression that "recreational chemicals" was a subject they also had serious first-hand expertise in.

    Anyway, the class really wasn't that difficult for me or for him -- relative to much harder classes that still give me shivers (at the school in question, it was the organic chemistry lab that was the more serious bottleneck, or worse yet, physical chemistry) -- and if you or anyone else found it so, I can understand why some in the medical establishment might think that a medical degree is not the best place for you, no matter how brilliant you are -- and there are lots of brilliant people who grind with the best of them who still can't make heads or tails of organic chemistry because it just isn't their thing. In the end, I will defer to those in the establishment who try to raise the bar, or keep it high, over and above those whose justification for lessening those requirements involves the belief that only eggheads could possibly get through organic chemistry, or we're really missing out by losing people like this Kyla.

    There are lots of other healing professions of one form or another out there whose coursework doesn't include organic chemistry. To the extent you want to tell me, no, it really needs to be a doctor or it's not good enough, I'm left with the suspicion that this is a lot more about you than anyone who might at some point be your patient and that makes me suspect that patient is going to be worse off for it.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

  169. @Black Athena
    @Seneca44


    I would be in the minority of practicing physicians who believe that courses like Organic Chemistry are useful
     
    You are right about that. And that is why the excessive importance (40-50% of MCAT questions) given to Organic Chemistry is a hurdle premed students shouldn't have to face. Shame on the gloaters here who are mocking this girl for getting stopped by it.

    https://admissionsconsultants.com/medical/organic-chemistry-requirement-med-school/

    It has become a tradition for pre-med students to fear and complain about the dreaded organic chemistry course. As much as they hate it, organic chemistry is a requirement for getting into most medical schools. However, some schools are beginning to question if it should be a determining factor in whether a student is able to pursue a career in medicine.

    some outside thinkers in the world of academic medicine are wondering whether organic chemistry should be an absolute requirement for all pre-med students. In fact, they suggest that requiring organic chemistry might exclude some very talented and bright students from continuing on the pre-med path.

    “I think organic chemistry, in its purest form, has less relevance to the modern physician than his predecessor decades ago" said Dr. Tim Wu, an assistant professor of surgery at University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine.

    The Dean for Medical Education, Dr. David Muller, is one of the driving forces behind The Icahn School’s curriculum change. “I believe there is a trend away from requiring organic chemistry, and that the momentum will pick up in the next two to three years,” he said. “Most educators agree that clinically relevant biochemistry and molecular biology are far more useful than Orgo.”


    Harvard Medical School is currently in the process of altering its curriculum to place less of a focus on organic chemistry. Harvard is considering interdisciplinary courses that combine biology and chemistry as a substitute for two semesters of organic and inorganic chemistry.


     

    Replies: @HA

    “And that is why the excessive importance (40-50% of MCAT questions) given to Organic Chemistry is a hurdle premed students shouldn’t have to face.”

    At least “Alec Leamas (hard at work)” had the decency to try and pretend this was about giving patients something they prefer. You can’t even be bothered with that. For you it’s all about what students should get. A doctor’s (not to mention a Harvard student’s) sense of entitlement is already grossly inflated, in general — you want to puff it up even more.

    Medicine should be in the practice of making better doctors not about shaming those who have the audacity to think that the ability to tackle organic chemistry is something a good practitioner needs. It’s not about your right to become a doctor — that right doesn’t exist.

    Simply lowering standards — the way the Soviets did — allowed a large number of historically discriminated people to become doctors (i.e. women) but I’d wager few who had to live through that system believed that patients as a whole benefitted.

    Kyla could have also gone to some Caribbean med school where standards are a lot less stringent. That’s still an option, with plenty of sunshine and gorgeous beaches to boot. But for some strange reason, the doctors coming from there are not as regarded as those who made it through the US system. Ponder on why that is a little more, and less on grievance hustling and how to make US medical education less like those in the Caribbean.

    • Agree: Twinkie
    • Replies: @Black Athena
    @HA


    Medicine should be in the practice of making better doctors
     
    How the hell does cramming your brain with information you will never really need make you a better doctor? What do you know that Harvard Medical School does not?

    You and Twinkie need your brains examined for cobwebs (by a female neurosurgeon) for stubbornly insisting that making almost half of MCAT questions about Organic Chemistry is a brilliant way to identify who will make the best doctors.

    Simply lowering standards — the way the Soviets did — allowed a large number of historically discriminated people to become doctors (i.e. women) but I’d wager few who had to live through that system believed that patients as a whole benefitted.
     
    Wagering, mister misogynist, is not a proxy for proof. Show us real evidence that female doctors were worse than their male counterparts in the Soviet Union.

    Replies: @nebulafox, @Twinkie

  170. @Alec Leamas (hard at work)
    @Twinkie


    Just like “a normal but athletic American kid who kissed and had friends” ought to be able to be a professional baseball player.

     

    You're slipping the rabbit into the hat here. If he has the sufficient athletic abilities and skills to play professional baseball, then yes. But professional baseball isn't "hack-able" in the way that the current U.S. academic system is. If you can't hit a curveball, there aren't enough private lessons to help you fake competency. Additionally, professional baseball scours North America, Central America, the Caribbean and parts of Asia for teens with raw baseball talent and helps to develop it and it's evident that the MLB doesn't slot players by race.

    Further, I didn't write that any normal American kid ought to be able to become a physician regardless of natural abilities - I simply wrote that the physician selection process ought not be weeding these kids out in favor of the de facto sweat shop grinders who are the products of tiger moms.

    It's as much a criticism of the American educational system, which doesn't do a good job of identifying naturally talented kids and competently teaching them organic chemistry and the like. So the system distributes its spoils to grinders with pushy parents and those without the natural ability to learn the practice of medicine but who fill diversity slots. This is, again, not a recipe for quality patient care.

    I got news for you. One, in real life, excellence is innate ability + effort (aka conscientiousness, which is highly correlated to life outcomes in most fields). It’s always people who drone about “Asian grinds” who seem to be under the mistaken impression that somehow untalented Asians who work hard are outcompeting white geniuses who don’t work hard. In the real world, talented people who work hard, white or Asian, are competing against other talented people who work hard. All the geniuses I know work maniacally hard.
     
    No. In my example of the East Asian and South Asian grinders, it is their families' effort and monomaniacal focus that puts them where they wind up rather than innate drive. In my experience, these kinds of people are very, very unhappy in adulthood. Unhappy people are unlikely to deliver good medical care.

    And there is a difference in learning between someone who can apply the formula because of raw repetition, and someone who comes to understand the material. Yes, I am stating that (commensurate with standardized test scores over time) grinders are able to "hack" the U.S. educational regime and acquire premiums over and above their native intelligence. Steve posts SAT scores over time, and the Asians' scores have exploded since the mid-1990s, when the SAT was "recentered" and decoupled from a raw IQ proxy examination (so as to goose up the scores of females and non-whites). In other words, Asian intelligence hasn't increased over this time, but as the SAT became more susceptible to preparation, Asian scores have continued to rise at a rate well above all other ethnic categories. In sum, they're grinding their way to high scores. The Colleges and Universities obviously know this, but are stuck in a Scylla and Charybdis situation in which reverting to the original form and centering of the SAT would expose the extent of the corruption of their diversity policies, so they simply limit the number of Asian grinders by dismissing their score premiums and (probably accurately) citing their lack of "roundness" as applicants.

    Two, kids who work hard still kiss girls and have friends. It’s just that if they are wise enough to delay gratification, they don’t do those things to the detriment of their intellectual and scholastic development while they are growing.
     
    My point is that it is increasingly becoming the case that you can't be a very bright normal American kid with normal American kid interests who demonstrates academic rigor and become a high achieving adult. Fifteen year old kids shouldn't have "jobs" with their entire lifetime fate at stake, and which make them choose between normal human development milestones and future career success. I'm not saying you shouldn't divide the academic wheat from the chaff, but rather that you should beware not to discard lots of wholesome immature wheat before its time.

    It’s always amusing when I see people who rail against, say, black youths for “kissing girls and having friends” as having the inability to delay gratification and think long term compared to, say, white kids, but who, then, turn around and critique Asian kids for doing the same compared to white kids. It’s the the typical, “People who drive slower than I do are morons, but those who drive faster are crazies.”
     
    No one "rails" against black youths for "kissing girls and having friends." They "rail" against black youths for exhibiting antisocial and criminal behavior, for impregnating other "youths," and for not being at all engaged in school (i.e., attending) but then having organized black ethnic lobbying groups complain about diminished opportunities for blacks and subsequently having utterly unearned opportunities awarded to them.

    I'm not critiquing Asian kids for "delaying gratification," I'm critiquing a system of higher education and physician selection that favors the grinding kids of pushy parents who have mentally abused those children in order to "win" at this stupid game that probably nets substandard patient care. (Preventable medical errors are a leading cause of death in the U.S., and greater in number than motor vehicle accidents). I'm also critiquing a system that favors unqualified dullards lacking innate scholastic aptitude because they have a uterus and/or elevated levels of melanin.

    Evidently, you're critiquing the parents of very bright white kids who don't schedule every waking hour with private mathematics and science lessons and who instead rely upon the U.S. education system which they pay for to educate their children competently.

    Finally, having friends, playing baseball, and kissing girls as a teenager is not some "gratification" that you're only supposed to get at 28 when you've successfully completed a medical residency, you absolute twit. It's a normal part of human social development which makes a person physically, mentally and emotionally balanced and healthy.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    If you can’t hit a curveball, there aren’t enough private lessons to help you fake competency.

    What makes you think it’s any different with any number of vocations that require a high cognitive ability such as being a physician?

    the physician selection process ought not be weeding these kids out in favor of the de facto sweat shop grinders who are the products of tiger moms…

    In my example of the East Asian and South Asian grinders, it is their families’ effort and monomaniacal focus that puts them where they wind up rather than innate drive. In my experience, these kinds of people are very, very unhappy in adulthood. Unhappy people are unlikely to deliver good medical care…

    I’m critiquing a system of higher education and physician selection that favors the grinding kids of pushy parents who have mentally abused those children in order to “win” at this stupid game that probably nets substandard patient care.

    “In your experience,” eh? This is nothing more than you starting with a prior (“Don’t like Asian doctors”) and manufacturing facts in your own mind to fit the prior. Your statements are simply a series of assertions without evidence.

    Let’s look at some data, shall we? Let’s see if these “Asian sweat shop grinders” with “unhappy adulthoods” deliver poor healthcare. It’s just so happens that Charles Murray in his latest book Facing Reality collected data (proxies) relevant to this kind of a discussion. On p. 144 of his book, he writes:

    The Medical Board of California is the state agency for licensing and regulating physicians. A study of complaints, investigations, and discipline from July 2003 to June 2013 found the following proportions by race:

    California Physicians

    Physicians with Complaints European 28.0% African 43.0% Latin 36.5% Asian 24.7%
    Physicians with Investigations European 6.7% African 11.7% Latin 9.7% Asian 5.3%
    Physicians Disciplined European 1.0% African 1.5% Latin 1.9% Asian 0.8%

    Murray has similar data on other professions such as lawyers:

    California Attorneys

    Attorneys with 10+ Complaints Lodged European 2.8% African 7.2% Latin 5.0% Asian 2%
    Attorneys Placed on Probation European 0.6% African 1.9% Latin 1.2% Asian 0.4%

    Regarding these kinds of data, Murray writes:

    In the legal profession, the race differences in pass rates for the bar exam are commensurate with trace differences in cognitive ability. So are differences in the percentage of attorney who have been the subject of repeated complaints in California.

    In the medical profession, race differences in board certification for a medical specialty are commensurate with race differences in cognitive ability. So are differences in investigations of complaints filed against physicians, and in disciplinary action by the state medical board of California.

    These kinds of numbers show a phenomenon known as “mismatch.” If underqualified people were somehow able to pass through the educational system (be it medical school or law school) without mastering the material or otherwise becoming qualified due to affirmative action, cheating, “hacking the system” (whatever that means) or any other nefarious means, you will see the resulting mismatch between the credential and the real life performance.

    So here, you can see that blacks and Hispanics have higher rates of complaints and professional disciplinary issues than whites and Asians, meaning, underqualified people were passed through the system (most likely due to affirmative action). But Asians actually have lower rates of complaints and professional disciplinary action than whites, which lends evidence toward the falsification of your assertion that “grinds” who don’t acquire competency are passing through the system via some form of “hacking” the tests and are then providing lower quality service.

    Finally, having friends, playing baseball, and kissing girls as a teenager is not some “gratification” that you’re only supposed to get at 28 when you’ve successfully completed a medical residency, you absolute twit.

    Don’t be a dumb asshole. If you don’t like Asian doctors, just say it – ideas like that are perfectly acceptable on Unz. Don’t make up bullshit ideas without an iota supporting evidence based on “your experience” to push your preferences. Maybe if you had grade school level reading comprehension, you’d realize your silly straw man is not what I wrote: “Two, kids who work hard still kiss girls and have friends. It’s just that if they are wise enough to delay gratification, they don’t do those things to the detriment of their intellectual and scholastic development while they are growing.” Kissing girls is not an “on or off” proposition, dummy. It’s a matter of scale. And if you think that Asian kids who excel and go on to successful careers don’t play sports or engage in other extracurricular activities and just sit on their behinds and do test-prep, you are even more deluded than you appear already.

    As for “kissing girls,” I had a rather embarrassing/amusing situation with my Chinese immigrant neighbor once. I caught his high school-age daughter having sex with her boyfriend in her dad’s car parked outside my house. I talked to my wife about it and debated whether I should tell my neighbor. She told me not to do so (my argument was “If I were her dad, I’d want to know…” and her argument was “You don’t want to be the bearer of that kind of bad news…”).

    That girl still managed to get into the local (nationally renowned) magnet school, get into a top 20 undergrad, and is working as a high falutin’ investment banker. Obviously she engaged in some boy-kissing, but didn’t do it to the detriment of her scholastic development.

    I, too, have my own critique of the U.S. educational system (this is not theoretical – I have skin in the game and I homeschool my kids), but not for the made-up reasons you do.

    • Replies: @Alec Leamas (hard at work)
    @Twinkie


    Don’t be a dumb asshole. If you don’t like Asian doctors, just say it – ideas like that are perfectly acceptable on Unz. Don’t make up bullshit ideas without an iota supporting evidence based on “your experience” to push your preferences. Maybe if you had grade school level reading comprehension, you’d realize your silly straw man is not what I wrote: “Two, kids who work hard still kiss girls and have friends. It’s just that if they are wise enough to delay gratification, they don’t do those things to the detriment of their intellectual and scholastic development while they are growing.” Kissing girls is not an “on or off” proposition, dummy. It’s a matter of scale. And if you think that Asian kids who excel and go on to successful careers don’t play sports or engage in other extracurricular activities and just sit on their behinds and do test-prep, you are even more deluded than you appear already.

    As for “kissing girls,” I had a rather embarrassing/amusing situation with my Chinese immigrant neighbor once. I caught his high school-age daughter having sex with her boyfriend in her dad’s car parked outside my house. I talked to my wife about it and debated whether I should tell my neighbor. She told me not to do so (my argument was “If I were her dad, I’d want to know…” and her argument was “You don’t want to be the bearer of that kind of bad news…”).
     
    Since you appear to be somewhere on the spectrum, allow me to explain that "play baseball and kiss girls" is not meant literally but as a descriptive of the category "normal American childhood." Naturally and rightfully, very bright children will participate in additional activities which develop their gifts. But this is different from taking the next year's mathematics course in the summer before so that the student can outscore his or her peers (this is an anecdote given by a regular UNZ commentator).

    So the fact that you may have seen a Chinese kiss a boy once or throw a baseball isn't the dispositive counterargument that you seem to think it is.
  171. @Alec Leamas (hard at work)
    @HA


    If I understand you, you’re saying we’ll get more doctors “who played baseball and kissed girls and had friends” if we do away with organic chemistry requirements.
     
    I don't think you understand me. I'm writing that we should take a critical eye towards the prerequisite courses for the study of medicine in order to determine whether they're actually useful and necessary, or whether they're just difficult hoops of rather remote relevance to the practice of medicine which remain in place in order to winnow down aspirant doctors. If the former, then by all means keep it. If the latter, then we should change the course or prerequisites to the study of medicine. But a largely irrelevant prerequisite is particularly pernicious if it is selecting for grinders with a stomach for monotony and repetition over aspirants with actual innate talent.

    Consider the more likely alternative of simply getting a lower tier of children with tiger moms, since even as it is, they are already willing to work for less than those baseball jocks and in small towns that have trouble retaining doctors.
     
    Perhaps. But perhaps not. If the remaining prerequisites are less susceptible to hacking by grinding (where small differences in scores can be dispositive - but only for whites and Asians) and they're more relevant to the study of medicine then we're making some progress.

    If you just want a doctor who’ll chat with you about the ball game to help distract you during the digital exam, (or are sore about not being able to be that doctor) I’m not sure you’ll solve any of that by messing with organic chemistry prerequisites. Other factors are at play.
     
    I'm laboring under the impression that a physician needs a dual skill set. On the one hand, the physician must know the science of the human body. On the other hand, the physician should have a suite of communicative abilities necessary to diagnose and inform his patients who do not have a deep understanding of the science of the human body.

    The inability to communicate with the patient leads to misdiagnosis, poor prescriptive advice, and consequent negative health outcomes. This would seem to be an important point, however you seem to be more interested in making hackneyed scatological jokes for some reason.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @HA

    But a largely irrelevant prerequisite is particularly pernicious if it is selecting for grinders with a stomach for monotony and repetition over aspirants with actual innate talent.

    This exists only in your fantasy.

    This would seem to be an important point, however you seem to be more interested in making hackneyed scatological jokes for some reason.

    That’s because he can see just as I can that you are interested in pushing your own priors, rather than what actually exists in the real world, where life outcome is cognitive ability + effort. The Asian talent-less grind vs. the white easy-going genius construct is the cope you constructed for yourself for the cold, hard truth in the U.S. – that data after data show that Asians in America have higher average cognitive ability than whites and that they tend to work harder as well. At the right tail end of those bell curve graphs, the disparity is going to be pronounced and manifest itself as Asians having higher proportions of elite vocations, including physicians.

    • Replies: @Alec Leamas (hard at work)
    @Twinkie


    This exists only in your fantasy.
     
    I have fantasies but I can assure you that this is not one of them.

    That’s because he can see just as I can that you are interested in pushing your own priors, rather than what actually exists in the real world, where life outcome is cognitive ability + effort. The Asian talent-less grind vs. the white easy-going genius construct is the cope you constructed for yourself for the cold, hard truth in the U.S. – that data after data show that Asians in America have higher average cognitive ability than whites and that they tend to work harder as well. At the right tail end of those bell curve graphs, the disparity is going to be pronounced and manifest itself as Asians having higher proportions of elite vocations, including physicians.
     
    I never wrote that all Asians are talentless, or even that the grinders are wholly talentless. That's your strawman, and it's getting dust all over your shirt.

    If Asians have a cognitive advantage over whites in the United States it is a modest one and not a matter of multiple deviations from the mean as the difference between the mean and Affirmative Action admits is. Given their much smaller numbers relative to whites, we should see a noticeable but nevertheless small increased proportion of Asian physicians against the whole. But what you do see instead is an outsized number of Asians in medical schools and in the practice of medicine. So, yes, this is indicative of years of grinding and calculated resume building, which is a significant departure from the traditional American childhood, and an American childhood even for extremely bright and talented children.

    All of which is to say that for some reason you really do think that the sum of the practice of medicine is spitting out organic chemistry solutions at 100% rather than 98.5%. The 1.5% difference is, to you, of primary importance.

    To the contrary, I think that the mental, emotional, and physical development and well-being of the human being who we are proposing will be cutting into the bodies of other humans and making life-and-death decisions for other human beings is a vital requisite as well.

    And yes, I will say very directly that I prize a doctor who is thoroughly American, and normal, and relatable over marginal increases in patient outcomes produced by a class of Asian physicians. I would also want medicine to be a profession to which the very bright but otherwise normal American kid down the street can aspire without having to engage - mutually assured destruction style - in off-hours cramming as a teen to keep up with mentally abused Asian tiger cubs.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  172. @Alec Leamas (hard at work)
    @HA


    If I understand you, you’re saying we’ll get more doctors “who played baseball and kissed girls and had friends” if we do away with organic chemistry requirements.
     
    I don't think you understand me. I'm writing that we should take a critical eye towards the prerequisite courses for the study of medicine in order to determine whether they're actually useful and necessary, or whether they're just difficult hoops of rather remote relevance to the practice of medicine which remain in place in order to winnow down aspirant doctors. If the former, then by all means keep it. If the latter, then we should change the course or prerequisites to the study of medicine. But a largely irrelevant prerequisite is particularly pernicious if it is selecting for grinders with a stomach for monotony and repetition over aspirants with actual innate talent.

    Consider the more likely alternative of simply getting a lower tier of children with tiger moms, since even as it is, they are already willing to work for less than those baseball jocks and in small towns that have trouble retaining doctors.
     
    Perhaps. But perhaps not. If the remaining prerequisites are less susceptible to hacking by grinding (where small differences in scores can be dispositive - but only for whites and Asians) and they're more relevant to the study of medicine then we're making some progress.

    If you just want a doctor who’ll chat with you about the ball game to help distract you during the digital exam, (or are sore about not being able to be that doctor) I’m not sure you’ll solve any of that by messing with organic chemistry prerequisites. Other factors are at play.
     
    I'm laboring under the impression that a physician needs a dual skill set. On the one hand, the physician must know the science of the human body. On the other hand, the physician should have a suite of communicative abilities necessary to diagnose and inform his patients who do not have a deep understanding of the science of the human body.

    The inability to communicate with the patient leads to misdiagnosis, poor prescriptive advice, and consequent negative health outcomes. This would seem to be an important point, however you seem to be more interested in making hackneyed scatological jokes for some reason.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @HA

    “I’m laboring under the impression that a physician needs a dual skill set. On the one hand, the physician must know the science of the human body. “

    I’ve known plenty of people who played baseball and aced their organic chemistry. One of my best friends in high school went to organic chemistry with me — he’s currently a successful optometrist in between his trips to Colorado to go kayaking and stuff like that. Another one was known for blowing things up to wow the freshman chemistry undergrads — he later won a very prestigious award that you might have heard of. A few hippies, too, who gave the impression that “recreational chemicals” was a subject they also had serious first-hand expertise in.

    Anyway, the class really wasn’t that difficult for me or for him — relative to much harder classes that still give me shivers (at the school in question, it was the organic chemistry lab that was the more serious bottleneck, or worse yet, physical chemistry) — and if you or anyone else found it so, I can understand why some in the medical establishment might think that a medical degree is not the best place for you, no matter how brilliant you are — and there are lots of brilliant people who grind with the best of them who still can’t make heads or tails of organic chemistry because it just isn’t their thing. In the end, I will defer to those in the establishment who try to raise the bar, or keep it high, over and above those whose justification for lessening those requirements involves the belief that only eggheads could possibly get through organic chemistry, or we’re really missing out by losing people like this Kyla.

    There are lots of other healing professions of one form or another out there whose coursework doesn’t include organic chemistry. To the extent you want to tell me, no, it really needs to be a doctor or it’s not good enough, I’m left with the suspicion that this is a lot more about you than anyone who might at some point be your patient and that makes me suspect that patient is going to be worse off for it.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @HA


    optometrist
     
    Optometrists don't go to medical schools. Ophthalmologists do.
    , @Alec Leamas (hard at work)
    @HA


    There are lots of other healing professions of one form or another out there whose coursework doesn’t include organic chemistry. To the extent you want to tell me, no, it really needs to be a doctor or it’s not good enough, I’m left with the suspicion that this is a lot more about you than anyone who might at some point be your patient and that makes me suspect that patient is going to be worse off for it.
     
    I . . . am not a Doctor and never aspired to be one. I decided early on that I don't want to touch or smell strangers.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  173. @HA
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    "I’m laboring under the impression that a physician needs a dual skill set. On the one hand, the physician must know the science of the human body. "

    I've known plenty of people who played baseball and aced their organic chemistry. One of my best friends in high school went to organic chemistry with me -- he's currently a successful optometrist in between his trips to Colorado to go kayaking and stuff like that. Another one was known for blowing things up to wow the freshman chemistry undergrads -- he later won a very prestigious award that you might have heard of. A few hippies, too, who gave the impression that "recreational chemicals" was a subject they also had serious first-hand expertise in.

    Anyway, the class really wasn't that difficult for me or for him -- relative to much harder classes that still give me shivers (at the school in question, it was the organic chemistry lab that was the more serious bottleneck, or worse yet, physical chemistry) -- and if you or anyone else found it so, I can understand why some in the medical establishment might think that a medical degree is not the best place for you, no matter how brilliant you are -- and there are lots of brilliant people who grind with the best of them who still can't make heads or tails of organic chemistry because it just isn't their thing. In the end, I will defer to those in the establishment who try to raise the bar, or keep it high, over and above those whose justification for lessening those requirements involves the belief that only eggheads could possibly get through organic chemistry, or we're really missing out by losing people like this Kyla.

    There are lots of other healing professions of one form or another out there whose coursework doesn't include organic chemistry. To the extent you want to tell me, no, it really needs to be a doctor or it's not good enough, I'm left with the suspicion that this is a lot more about you than anyone who might at some point be your patient and that makes me suspect that patient is going to be worse off for it.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    optometrist

    Optometrists don’t go to medical schools. Ophthalmologists do.

  174. @Twinkie
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)


    But a largely irrelevant prerequisite is particularly pernicious if it is selecting for grinders with a stomach for monotony and repetition over aspirants with actual innate talent.
     
    This exists only in your fantasy.

    This would seem to be an important point, however you seem to be more interested in making hackneyed scatological jokes for some reason.
     
    That's because he can see just as I can that you are interested in pushing your own priors, rather than what actually exists in the real world, where life outcome is cognitive ability + effort. The Asian talent-less grind vs. the white easy-going genius construct is the cope you constructed for yourself for the cold, hard truth in the U.S. - that data after data show that Asians in America have higher average cognitive ability than whites and that they tend to work harder as well. At the right tail end of those bell curve graphs, the disparity is going to be pronounced and manifest itself as Asians having higher proportions of elite vocations, including physicians.

    Replies: @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    This exists only in your fantasy.

    I have fantasies but I can assure you that this is not one of them.

    That’s because he can see just as I can that you are interested in pushing your own priors, rather than what actually exists in the real world, where life outcome is cognitive ability + effort. The Asian talent-less grind vs. the white easy-going genius construct is the cope you constructed for yourself for the cold, hard truth in the U.S. – that data after data show that Asians in America have higher average cognitive ability than whites and that they tend to work harder as well. At the right tail end of those bell curve graphs, the disparity is going to be pronounced and manifest itself as Asians having higher proportions of elite vocations, including physicians.

    I never wrote that all Asians are talentless, or even that the grinders are wholly talentless. That’s your strawman, and it’s getting dust all over your shirt.

    If Asians have a cognitive advantage over whites in the United States it is a modest one and not a matter of multiple deviations from the mean as the difference between the mean and Affirmative Action admits is. Given their much smaller numbers relative to whites, we should see a noticeable but nevertheless small increased proportion of Asian physicians against the whole. But what you do see instead is an outsized number of Asians in medical schools and in the practice of medicine. So, yes, this is indicative of years of grinding and calculated resume building, which is a significant departure from the traditional American childhood, and an American childhood even for extremely bright and talented children.

    All of which is to say that for some reason you really do think that the sum of the practice of medicine is spitting out organic chemistry solutions at 100% rather than 98.5%. The 1.5% difference is, to you, of primary importance.

    To the contrary, I think that the mental, emotional, and physical development and well-being of the human being who we are proposing will be cutting into the bodies of other humans and making life-and-death decisions for other human beings is a vital requisite as well.

    And yes, I will say very directly that I prize a doctor who is thoroughly American, and normal, and relatable over marginal increases in patient outcomes produced by a class of Asian physicians. I would also want medicine to be a profession to which the very bright but otherwise normal American kid down the street can aspire without having to engage – mutually assured destruction style – in off-hours cramming as a teen to keep up with mentally abused Asian tiger cubs.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)


    Given their much smaller numbers relative to whites, we should see a noticeable but nevertheless small increased proportion of Asian physicians against the whole. But what you do see instead is an outsized number of Asians in medical schools and in the practice of medicine. So, yes, this is indicative of years of grinding and calculated resume building
     
    You seem not to know how the bell curve works. Even though the cognitive difference is small on average, the disparity in numbers becomes significant at the edges of distribution. Physicians aren’t average people in cognitive profile - they are toward the right end of the curve. There are disproportionately greater fraction of physicians among Asians for the same reason that Jews were over represented in the profession.

    Your cries of “It’s the grinding!” is just repetition of your own, unsupported, priors. As Murray writes in his book, cognitive differences among groups, especially at the right edge, correlates very highly with the distribution of the racial groups in (cognitively-demanding) elite professions.

    There is also one other reason why you see more Asian doctors. While the percentage of those with Asian ancestry who graduate from American medical schools are about consistently 20%, you see more and more Asian doctors (not so much East Asian, but South Asian), because our country has been importing foreign medical graduates in large numbers, the biggest source country of which is India.

    For that matter, while South Asians used to be a tiny fraction of Asians in past America, they now account for 25% or more of Asians here. Among school children, that fraction is probably even greater (East Asians skew older). And these South Asian immigrants are educationally very highly selected. 70% of foreign-born Indians here have college degrees and 40% have graduate degrees (where as only about 35% of Americans have college degrees and 55% of Asians do overall). Is it any wonder that the generic Asian test scores keep rising when the demographic profile has changed so dramatically in the recent years?
  175. @HA
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    "I’m laboring under the impression that a physician needs a dual skill set. On the one hand, the physician must know the science of the human body. "

    I've known plenty of people who played baseball and aced their organic chemistry. One of my best friends in high school went to organic chemistry with me -- he's currently a successful optometrist in between his trips to Colorado to go kayaking and stuff like that. Another one was known for blowing things up to wow the freshman chemistry undergrads -- he later won a very prestigious award that you might have heard of. A few hippies, too, who gave the impression that "recreational chemicals" was a subject they also had serious first-hand expertise in.

    Anyway, the class really wasn't that difficult for me or for him -- relative to much harder classes that still give me shivers (at the school in question, it was the organic chemistry lab that was the more serious bottleneck, or worse yet, physical chemistry) -- and if you or anyone else found it so, I can understand why some in the medical establishment might think that a medical degree is not the best place for you, no matter how brilliant you are -- and there are lots of brilliant people who grind with the best of them who still can't make heads or tails of organic chemistry because it just isn't their thing. In the end, I will defer to those in the establishment who try to raise the bar, or keep it high, over and above those whose justification for lessening those requirements involves the belief that only eggheads could possibly get through organic chemistry, or we're really missing out by losing people like this Kyla.

    There are lots of other healing professions of one form or another out there whose coursework doesn't include organic chemistry. To the extent you want to tell me, no, it really needs to be a doctor or it's not good enough, I'm left with the suspicion that this is a lot more about you than anyone who might at some point be your patient and that makes me suspect that patient is going to be worse off for it.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    There are lots of other healing professions of one form or another out there whose coursework doesn’t include organic chemistry. To the extent you want to tell me, no, it really needs to be a doctor or it’s not good enough, I’m left with the suspicion that this is a lot more about you than anyone who might at some point be your patient and that makes me suspect that patient is going to be worse off for it.

    I . . . am not a Doctor and never aspired to be one. I decided early on that I don’t want to touch or smell strangers.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)


    I decided early on that I don’t want to touch or smell strangers.
     
    Radiologists don’t touch or smell strangers.

    Couldn’t pass orgo, huh?

    Replies: @nebulafox

  176. @Twinkie
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)


    If you can’t hit a curveball, there aren’t enough private lessons to help you fake competency.
     
    What makes you think it's any different with any number of vocations that require a high cognitive ability such as being a physician?

    the physician selection process ought not be weeding these kids out in favor of the de facto sweat shop grinders who are the products of tiger moms...

    In my example of the East Asian and South Asian grinders, it is their families’ effort and monomaniacal focus that puts them where they wind up rather than innate drive. In my experience, these kinds of people are very, very unhappy in adulthood. Unhappy people are unlikely to deliver good medical care...

    I’m critiquing a system of higher education and physician selection that favors the grinding kids of pushy parents who have mentally abused those children in order to “win” at this stupid game that probably nets substandard patient care.
     
    "In your experience," eh? This is nothing more than you starting with a prior ("Don't like Asian doctors") and manufacturing facts in your own mind to fit the prior. Your statements are simply a series of assertions without evidence.

    Let's look at some data, shall we? Let's see if these "Asian sweat shop grinders" with "unhappy adulthoods" deliver poor healthcare. It's just so happens that Charles Murray in his latest book Facing Reality collected data (proxies) relevant to this kind of a discussion. On p. 144 of his book, he writes:

    The Medical Board of California is the state agency for licensing and regulating physicians. A study of complaints, investigations, and discipline from July 2003 to June 2013 found the following proportions by race:

    California Physicians

    Physicians with Complaints European 28.0% African 43.0% Latin 36.5% Asian 24.7%
    Physicians with Investigations European 6.7% African 11.7% Latin 9.7% Asian 5.3%
    Physicians Disciplined European 1.0% African 1.5% Latin 1.9% Asian 0.8%
     
    Murray has similar data on other professions such as lawyers:

    California Attorneys

    Attorneys with 10+ Complaints Lodged European 2.8% African 7.2% Latin 5.0% Asian 2%
    Attorneys Placed on Probation European 0.6% African 1.9% Latin 1.2% Asian 0.4%
     
    Regarding these kinds of data, Murray writes:

    In the legal profession, the race differences in pass rates for the bar exam are commensurate with trace differences in cognitive ability. So are differences in the percentage of attorney who have been the subject of repeated complaints in California.

    In the medical profession, race differences in board certification for a medical specialty are commensurate with race differences in cognitive ability. So are differences in investigations of complaints filed against physicians, and in disciplinary action by the state medical board of California.
     
    These kinds of numbers show a phenomenon known as "mismatch." If underqualified people were somehow able to pass through the educational system (be it medical school or law school) without mastering the material or otherwise becoming qualified due to affirmative action, cheating, "hacking the system" (whatever that means) or any other nefarious means, you will see the resulting mismatch between the credential and the real life performance.

    So here, you can see that blacks and Hispanics have higher rates of complaints and professional disciplinary issues than whites and Asians, meaning, underqualified people were passed through the system (most likely due to affirmative action). But Asians actually have lower rates of complaints and professional disciplinary action than whites, which lends evidence toward the falsification of your assertion that "grinds" who don't acquire competency are passing through the system via some form of "hacking" the tests and are then providing lower quality service.

    Finally, having friends, playing baseball, and kissing girls as a teenager is not some “gratification” that you’re only supposed to get at 28 when you’ve successfully completed a medical residency, you absolute twit.
     
    Don't be a dumb asshole. If you don't like Asian doctors, just say it - ideas like that are perfectly acceptable on Unz. Don't make up bullshit ideas without an iota supporting evidence based on "your experience" to push your preferences. Maybe if you had grade school level reading comprehension, you'd realize your silly straw man is not what I wrote: "Two, kids who work hard still kiss girls and have friends. It’s just that if they are wise enough to delay gratification, they don’t do those things to the detriment of their intellectual and scholastic development while they are growing." Kissing girls is not an "on or off" proposition, dummy. It's a matter of scale. And if you think that Asian kids who excel and go on to successful careers don't play sports or engage in other extracurricular activities and just sit on their behinds and do test-prep, you are even more deluded than you appear already.

    As for "kissing girls," I had a rather embarrassing/amusing situation with my Chinese immigrant neighbor once. I caught his high school-age daughter having sex with her boyfriend in her dad's car parked outside my house. I talked to my wife about it and debated whether I should tell my neighbor. She told me not to do so (my argument was "If I were her dad, I'd want to know..." and her argument was "You don't want to be the bearer of that kind of bad news...").

    That girl still managed to get into the local (nationally renowned) magnet school, get into a top 20 undergrad, and is working as a high falutin' investment banker. Obviously she engaged in some boy-kissing, but didn't do it to the detriment of her scholastic development.

    I, too, have my own critique of the U.S. educational system (this is not theoretical - I have skin in the game and I homeschool my kids), but not for the made-up reasons you do.

    Replies: @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    Don’t be a dumb asshole. If you don’t like Asian doctors, just say it – ideas like that are perfectly acceptable on Unz. Don’t make up bullshit ideas without an iota supporting evidence based on “your experience” to push your preferences. Maybe if you had grade school level reading comprehension, you’d realize your silly straw man is not what I wrote: “Two, kids who work hard still kiss girls and have friends. It’s just that if they are wise enough to delay gratification, they don’t do those things to the detriment of their intellectual and scholastic development while they are growing.” Kissing girls is not an “on or off” proposition, dummy. It’s a matter of scale. And if you think that Asian kids who excel and go on to successful careers don’t play sports or engage in other extracurricular activities and just sit on their behinds and do test-prep, you are even more deluded than you appear already.

    As for “kissing girls,” I had a rather embarrassing/amusing situation with my Chinese immigrant neighbor once. I caught his high school-age daughter having sex with her boyfriend in her dad’s car parked outside my house. I talked to my wife about it and debated whether I should tell my neighbor. She told me not to do so (my argument was “If I were her dad, I’d want to know…” and her argument was “You don’t want to be the bearer of that kind of bad news…”).

    Since you appear to be somewhere on the spectrum, allow me to explain that “play baseball and kiss girls” is not meant literally but as a descriptive of the category “normal American childhood.” Naturally and rightfully, very bright children will participate in additional activities which develop their gifts. But this is different from taking the next year’s mathematics course in the summer before so that the student can outscore his or her peers (this is an anecdote given by a regular UNZ commentator).

    So the fact that you may have seen a Chinese kiss a boy once or throw a baseball isn’t the dispositive counterargument that you seem to think it is.

  177. @Alec Leamas (hard at work)
    @Twinkie


    This exists only in your fantasy.
     
    I have fantasies but I can assure you that this is not one of them.

    That’s because he can see just as I can that you are interested in pushing your own priors, rather than what actually exists in the real world, where life outcome is cognitive ability + effort. The Asian talent-less grind vs. the white easy-going genius construct is the cope you constructed for yourself for the cold, hard truth in the U.S. – that data after data show that Asians in America have higher average cognitive ability than whites and that they tend to work harder as well. At the right tail end of those bell curve graphs, the disparity is going to be pronounced and manifest itself as Asians having higher proportions of elite vocations, including physicians.
     
    I never wrote that all Asians are talentless, or even that the grinders are wholly talentless. That's your strawman, and it's getting dust all over your shirt.

    If Asians have a cognitive advantage over whites in the United States it is a modest one and not a matter of multiple deviations from the mean as the difference between the mean and Affirmative Action admits is. Given their much smaller numbers relative to whites, we should see a noticeable but nevertheless small increased proportion of Asian physicians against the whole. But what you do see instead is an outsized number of Asians in medical schools and in the practice of medicine. So, yes, this is indicative of years of grinding and calculated resume building, which is a significant departure from the traditional American childhood, and an American childhood even for extremely bright and talented children.

    All of which is to say that for some reason you really do think that the sum of the practice of medicine is spitting out organic chemistry solutions at 100% rather than 98.5%. The 1.5% difference is, to you, of primary importance.

    To the contrary, I think that the mental, emotional, and physical development and well-being of the human being who we are proposing will be cutting into the bodies of other humans and making life-and-death decisions for other human beings is a vital requisite as well.

    And yes, I will say very directly that I prize a doctor who is thoroughly American, and normal, and relatable over marginal increases in patient outcomes produced by a class of Asian physicians. I would also want medicine to be a profession to which the very bright but otherwise normal American kid down the street can aspire without having to engage - mutually assured destruction style - in off-hours cramming as a teen to keep up with mentally abused Asian tiger cubs.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    Given their much smaller numbers relative to whites, we should see a noticeable but nevertheless small increased proportion of Asian physicians against the whole. But what you do see instead is an outsized number of Asians in medical schools and in the practice of medicine. So, yes, this is indicative of years of grinding and calculated resume building

    You seem not to know how the bell curve works. Even though the cognitive difference is small on average, the disparity in numbers becomes significant at the edges of distribution. Physicians aren’t average people in cognitive profile – they are toward the right end of the curve. There are disproportionately greater fraction of physicians among Asians for the same reason that Jews were over represented in the profession.

    Your cries of “It’s the grinding!” is just repetition of your own, unsupported, priors. As Murray writes in his book, cognitive differences among groups, especially at the right edge, correlates very highly with the distribution of the racial groups in (cognitively-demanding) elite professions.

    There is also one other reason why you see more Asian doctors. While the percentage of those with Asian ancestry who graduate from American medical schools are about consistently 20%, you see more and more Asian doctors (not so much East Asian, but South Asian), because our country has been importing foreign medical graduates in large numbers, the biggest source country of which is India.

    For that matter, while South Asians used to be a tiny fraction of Asians in past America, they now account for 25% or more of Asians here. Among school children, that fraction is probably even greater (East Asians skew older). And these South Asian immigrants are educationally very highly selected. 70% of foreign-born Indians here have college degrees and 40% have graduate degrees (where as only about 35% of Americans have college degrees and 55% of Asians do overall). Is it any wonder that the generic Asian test scores keep rising when the demographic profile has changed so dramatically in the recent years?

  178. @Alec Leamas (hard at work)
    @HA


    There are lots of other healing professions of one form or another out there whose coursework doesn’t include organic chemistry. To the extent you want to tell me, no, it really needs to be a doctor or it’s not good enough, I’m left with the suspicion that this is a lot more about you than anyone who might at some point be your patient and that makes me suspect that patient is going to be worse off for it.
     
    I . . . am not a Doctor and never aspired to be one. I decided early on that I don't want to touch or smell strangers.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    I decided early on that I don’t want to touch or smell strangers.

    Radiologists don’t touch or smell strangers.

    Couldn’t pass orgo, huh?

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    @Twinkie

    When I was a teenager, I studied orgo for a while on a whim. I already knew I wasn't going to be a premed, so take my recollections with a grain of salt. But my impression was that it didn't require actual problem solving skills, like physics did. It was mostly rote memory that required a moderately above average IQ, yes, but more crucially required patience, stamina, and the ability to assimilate new information. And a consistent, stable work ethic. Not just a work ethic, pure and simple, but one that is well grounded and won't get fazed by distractions and more interesting stuff.

    Here's the deal: THOSE THINGS ARE IMPORTANT IN SOMEONE YOU ARE WILLING TO TRUST YOUR BODY TO. There are fields that will tolerate brilliant but erratic (not lazy, necessarily, but inconsistent-the "ADHD" types. Smart but truly lazy people become grifters-MBAs, advertisers, politicians, etc) people. Programming is infamous for staccato work: a day at Google or Amazon or a hedge fund will display that. Medicine isn't one of them. And it shouldn't be, for all our sakes. Same reasons as civil engineering. Does anyone want that bridge to be built by someone who flaked his way through differential equations, for *any* reason whatsoever?

    Replies: @Twinkie

  179. @HA
    @Black Athena

    "And that is why the excessive importance (40-50% of MCAT questions) given to Organic Chemistry is a hurdle premed students shouldn’t have to face."

    At least "Alec Leamas (hard at work)" had the decency to try and pretend this was about giving patients something they prefer. You can't even be bothered with that. For you it's all about what students should get. A doctor's (not to mention a Harvard student's) sense of entitlement is already grossly inflated, in general -- you want to puff it up even more.

    Medicine should be in the practice of making better doctors not about shaming those who have the audacity to think that the ability to tackle organic chemistry is something a good practitioner needs. It's not about your right to become a doctor -- that right doesn't exist.

    Simply lowering standards -- the way the Soviets did -- allowed a large number of historically discriminated people to become doctors (i.e. women) but I'd wager few who had to live through that system believed that patients as a whole benefitted.

    Kyla could have also gone to some Caribbean med school where standards are a lot less stringent. That's still an option, with plenty of sunshine and gorgeous beaches to boot. But for some strange reason, the doctors coming from there are not as regarded as those who made it through the US system. Ponder on why that is a little more, and less on grievance hustling and how to make US medical education less like those in the Caribbean.

    Replies: @Black Athena

    Medicine should be in the practice of making better doctors

    How the hell does cramming your brain with information you will never really need make you a better doctor? What do you know that Harvard Medical School does not?

    You and Twinkie need your brains examined for cobwebs (by a female neurosurgeon) for stubbornly insisting that making almost half of MCAT questions about Organic Chemistry is a brilliant way to identify who will make the best doctors.

    Simply lowering standards — the way the Soviets did — allowed a large number of historically discriminated people to become doctors (i.e. women) but I’d wager few who had to live through that system believed that patients as a whole benefitted.

    Wagering, mister misogynist, is not a proxy for proof. Show us real evidence that female doctors were worse than their male counterparts in the Soviet Union.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    @Black Athena

    I don't think they were talking about gender, but ethnic quotas. Please refer to Malaysia (Singapore profited greatly from the resulting ethnic Chinese brain drain) or the latter day Soviet Union and for how those turned out. Quite a lot of high profile names from the brain drain caused by the latter, actually: Andre Geim, the Nobel Prize winner, couldn't get into the schools of his choice because of his ethnic German background. Sergei Brin's father faced similar problems for grad school because he was Jewish, which eventually prompted him to leave for America. Etc, etc. Is Russia better off for them having left?

    Playing racial games in a multiethnic nation at a time where everything, down to the bonds of your society, is decaying is deeply irresponsible. To put it mildly. And that's exactly what the Democrats and their allies, media, bureaucratic, and economic have been doing.

    (And my examples aren't even bottom of the barrel. Refer to Yugoslavia for a true nightmare scenario.)

    , @Twinkie
    @Black Athena


    How the hell does cramming your brain with information you will never really need make you a better doctor?
     
    Your premise is wrong.

    a female neurosurgeon
     
    Neurosurgery is 80+% male. Every single top neurosurgeon I know is a male (I am on the board of a major, multi-state healthcare system, so my sampling size is larger than with most people). And this isn't due to "sexism" either.

    MCAT
     
    Also, MCAT is not a test that tests doctoring knowledge. That would be the USMLE (during and after med school) and the various board-certification tests after residency (which is typically required for credentialing at hospitals).

    I shared this story before, but a large medical specialty practice in my local areas some years ago had to let go of ALL of its black physician employees. The reason? They all failed the boards repeatedly and couldn't be credentialed at hospitals. Thems are how the cookie crumbles in the real world.

    Replies: @Black Athena

  180. I think you should accumulate idiotic student statements supported by professors and staff at universities and colleges across the country and market it to parents of upcoming high school seniors. Peer pressure. “Did you hear Myra supports her son going to Oberlin, only a fool would let their 18 year old return to elementary school. Read Ann Coulter’s book or columns.

  181. These excerpts are, of course, the ravings of a deranged person.

  182. @Twinkie
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)


    I decided early on that I don’t want to touch or smell strangers.
     
    Radiologists don’t touch or smell strangers.

    Couldn’t pass orgo, huh?

    Replies: @nebulafox

    When I was a teenager, I studied orgo for a while on a whim. I already knew I wasn’t going to be a premed, so take my recollections with a grain of salt. But my impression was that it didn’t require actual problem solving skills, like physics did. It was mostly rote memory that required a moderately above average IQ, yes, but more crucially required patience, stamina, and the ability to assimilate new information. And a consistent, stable work ethic. Not just a work ethic, pure and simple, but one that is well grounded and won’t get fazed by distractions and more interesting stuff.

    Here’s the deal: THOSE THINGS ARE IMPORTANT IN SOMEONE YOU ARE WILLING TO TRUST YOUR BODY TO. There are fields that will tolerate brilliant but erratic (not lazy, necessarily, but inconsistent-the “ADHD” types. Smart but truly lazy people become grifters-MBAs, advertisers, politicians, etc) people. Programming is infamous for staccato work: a day at Google or Amazon or a hedge fund will display that. Medicine isn’t one of them. And it shouldn’t be, for all our sakes. Same reasons as civil engineering. Does anyone want that bridge to be built by someone who flaked his way through differential equations, for *any* reason whatsoever?

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @nebulafox


    THOSE THINGS ARE IMPORTANT IN SOMEONE YOU ARE WILLING TO TRUST YOUR BODY TO... Same reasons as civil engineering. Does anyone want that bridge to be built by someone who flaked his way through differential equations, for *any* reason whatsoever?
     
    "First do no harm" is a thing for a reason in medicine. For that matter, "having steady hands" or "steady nerves" is considered a very fine trait in medicine, surgery in particular. As you put it, most fields of medicine require the ability to digest and make use of new information, but also the natural conservatism to not fall prey to fads. Notwithstanding TV shows featuring erratic, genius doctors who solve strange diseases, in real life there is a lot of trial-and-elimination in medicine that requires relatively high IQ, but also diligence.

    Then there is the issue of numbers. You and I have discussed physics Ph.D.'s. They are invariably quite brilliant. Naturally their selectivity is considerably higher. The U.S. produces about 2,000 physics Ph.D.'s a year while about 25,000 graduate medical schools per annum (another 6,000 if D.O.'s are added). Even then there is a shortage of physicians that leads to importing foreign medical graduates (FMGs) while not all physics Ph.D.'s get jobs.

    Replies: @nebulafox

  183. @Black Athena
    @HA


    Medicine should be in the practice of making better doctors
     
    How the hell does cramming your brain with information you will never really need make you a better doctor? What do you know that Harvard Medical School does not?

    You and Twinkie need your brains examined for cobwebs (by a female neurosurgeon) for stubbornly insisting that making almost half of MCAT questions about Organic Chemistry is a brilliant way to identify who will make the best doctors.

    Simply lowering standards — the way the Soviets did — allowed a large number of historically discriminated people to become doctors (i.e. women) but I’d wager few who had to live through that system believed that patients as a whole benefitted.
     
    Wagering, mister misogynist, is not a proxy for proof. Show us real evidence that female doctors were worse than their male counterparts in the Soviet Union.

    Replies: @nebulafox, @Twinkie

    I don’t think they were talking about gender, but ethnic quotas. Please refer to Malaysia (Singapore profited greatly from the resulting ethnic Chinese brain drain) or the latter day Soviet Union and for how those turned out. Quite a lot of high profile names from the brain drain caused by the latter, actually: Andre Geim, the Nobel Prize winner, couldn’t get into the schools of his choice because of his ethnic German background. Sergei Brin’s father faced similar problems for grad school because he was Jewish, which eventually prompted him to leave for America. Etc, etc. Is Russia better off for them having left?

    Playing racial games in a multiethnic nation at a time where everything, down to the bonds of your society, is decaying is deeply irresponsible. To put it mildly. And that’s exactly what the Democrats and their allies, media, bureaucratic, and economic have been doing.

    (And my examples aren’t even bottom of the barrel. Refer to Yugoslavia for a true nightmare scenario.)

  184. @Black Athena
    @HA


    Medicine should be in the practice of making better doctors
     
    How the hell does cramming your brain with information you will never really need make you a better doctor? What do you know that Harvard Medical School does not?

    You and Twinkie need your brains examined for cobwebs (by a female neurosurgeon) for stubbornly insisting that making almost half of MCAT questions about Organic Chemistry is a brilliant way to identify who will make the best doctors.

    Simply lowering standards — the way the Soviets did — allowed a large number of historically discriminated people to become doctors (i.e. women) but I’d wager few who had to live through that system believed that patients as a whole benefitted.
     
    Wagering, mister misogynist, is not a proxy for proof. Show us real evidence that female doctors were worse than their male counterparts in the Soviet Union.

    Replies: @nebulafox, @Twinkie

    How the hell does cramming your brain with information you will never really need make you a better doctor?

    Your premise is wrong.

    a female neurosurgeon

    Neurosurgery is 80+% male. Every single top neurosurgeon I know is a male (I am on the board of a major, multi-state healthcare system, so my sampling size is larger than with most people). And this isn’t due to “sexism” either.

    MCAT

    Also, MCAT is not a test that tests doctoring knowledge. That would be the USMLE (during and after med school) and the various board-certification tests after residency (which is typically required for credentialing at hospitals).

    I shared this story before, but a large medical specialty practice in my local areas some years ago had to let go of ALL of its black physician employees. The reason? They all failed the boards repeatedly and couldn’t be credentialed at hospitals. Thems are how the cookie crumbles in the real world.

    • Replies: @Black Athena
    @Twinkie


    They all failed the boards repeatedly and couldn’t be credentialed at hospitals. Thems are how the cookie crumbles in the real world.
     
    First, show us the evidence that happened. Your word alone, considering your character, is worthless. Second, saying your 'story' is the norm in the "real world” is an outright lie. Shame on you. There are about 50,000 active physicians in America, including neurosurgeons, who self-identify as black. Blacks are better represented in the medical profession than Mexicans, Native Americans and likely also a number of Asian and European ethnicities in the US . How do you reconcile that with your deplorable racist and sexist prejudices?

    Neurosurgery is 80+% male
     
    It was 100% male not so long ago. Sadly for you, mister male chauvinist, the cookie is crumbling differently today than it did a few decades ago. The arc of history is bending away from your ilk.

    Also, MCAT is not a test that tests doctoring knowledge. That would be the USMLE
     
    What the hell does the USMLE have to do with pre-meds facing the Organic Chemistry hurdle? Failed Logic 101 did you? The ability to think logically is far more useful than the ability to regurgitate rote-learned Organic Chem. Which may explain why you spend your time here instead of a hospital. You must have been 'let go' by your employers.

    M I rite or vot?

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Twinkie

  185. @nebulafox
    @Twinkie

    When I was a teenager, I studied orgo for a while on a whim. I already knew I wasn't going to be a premed, so take my recollections with a grain of salt. But my impression was that it didn't require actual problem solving skills, like physics did. It was mostly rote memory that required a moderately above average IQ, yes, but more crucially required patience, stamina, and the ability to assimilate new information. And a consistent, stable work ethic. Not just a work ethic, pure and simple, but one that is well grounded and won't get fazed by distractions and more interesting stuff.

    Here's the deal: THOSE THINGS ARE IMPORTANT IN SOMEONE YOU ARE WILLING TO TRUST YOUR BODY TO. There are fields that will tolerate brilliant but erratic (not lazy, necessarily, but inconsistent-the "ADHD" types. Smart but truly lazy people become grifters-MBAs, advertisers, politicians, etc) people. Programming is infamous for staccato work: a day at Google or Amazon or a hedge fund will display that. Medicine isn't one of them. And it shouldn't be, for all our sakes. Same reasons as civil engineering. Does anyone want that bridge to be built by someone who flaked his way through differential equations, for *any* reason whatsoever?

    Replies: @Twinkie

    THOSE THINGS ARE IMPORTANT IN SOMEONE YOU ARE WILLING TO TRUST YOUR BODY TO… Same reasons as civil engineering. Does anyone want that bridge to be built by someone who flaked his way through differential equations, for *any* reason whatsoever?

    “First do no harm” is a thing for a reason in medicine. For that matter, “having steady hands” or “steady nerves” is considered a very fine trait in medicine, surgery in particular. As you put it, most fields of medicine require the ability to digest and make use of new information, but also the natural conservatism to not fall prey to fads. Notwithstanding TV shows featuring erratic, genius doctors who solve strange diseases, in real life there is a lot of trial-and-elimination in medicine that requires relatively high IQ, but also diligence.

    Then there is the issue of numbers. You and I have discussed physics Ph.D.’s. They are invariably quite brilliant. Naturally their selectivity is considerably higher. The U.S. produces about 2,000 physics Ph.D.’s a year while about 25,000 graduate medical schools per annum (another 6,000 if D.O.’s are added). Even then there is a shortage of physicians that leads to importing foreign medical graduates (FMGs) while not all physics Ph.D.’s get jobs.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    @Twinkie

    Yeah, naturally conservative temperament sums up my mental image of an ideal MD elegantly: I wish I thought of those words. Add phlegmatic to that.

    I don't think it's outrageous to suggest that stuff like O-Chem tests for more than intelligence and the ability to connect info. It's looking for the kind of personality that will do well in med school... and who you want dealing with critically damaged human bodies. Maybe it isn't a consciously chosen filter, but it is an effective one, at least at a preliminary level.

    Is the demand for physicians in the US is going to go further up due to the physical problems that afflict the populace in the coming decades? I have zero clue how medicine works, so if this is obvious, indulge me.

    (Physics PhDs: true as far as actual academic physics goes. But they can get jobs doing stuff not terribly dissimilar to what they did in grad school, research oriented... outside of academia, for better pay and for those willing to seek them out, far more interesting life adventures. TBH, not having any interest in going into academia from the get-go is among the more blessed strokes of luck in my life, despite some aspects of my personality.)

    Replies: @Twinkie

  186. @Twinkie
    @nebulafox


    THOSE THINGS ARE IMPORTANT IN SOMEONE YOU ARE WILLING TO TRUST YOUR BODY TO... Same reasons as civil engineering. Does anyone want that bridge to be built by someone who flaked his way through differential equations, for *any* reason whatsoever?
     
    "First do no harm" is a thing for a reason in medicine. For that matter, "having steady hands" or "steady nerves" is considered a very fine trait in medicine, surgery in particular. As you put it, most fields of medicine require the ability to digest and make use of new information, but also the natural conservatism to not fall prey to fads. Notwithstanding TV shows featuring erratic, genius doctors who solve strange diseases, in real life there is a lot of trial-and-elimination in medicine that requires relatively high IQ, but also diligence.

    Then there is the issue of numbers. You and I have discussed physics Ph.D.'s. They are invariably quite brilliant. Naturally their selectivity is considerably higher. The U.S. produces about 2,000 physics Ph.D.'s a year while about 25,000 graduate medical schools per annum (another 6,000 if D.O.'s are added). Even then there is a shortage of physicians that leads to importing foreign medical graduates (FMGs) while not all physics Ph.D.'s get jobs.

    Replies: @nebulafox

    Yeah, naturally conservative temperament sums up my mental image of an ideal MD elegantly: I wish I thought of those words. Add phlegmatic to that.

    I don’t think it’s outrageous to suggest that stuff like O-Chem tests for more than intelligence and the ability to connect info. It’s looking for the kind of personality that will do well in med school… and who you want dealing with critically damaged human bodies. Maybe it isn’t a consciously chosen filter, but it is an effective one, at least at a preliminary level.

    Is the demand for physicians in the US is going to go further up due to the physical problems that afflict the populace in the coming decades? I have zero clue how medicine works, so if this is obvious, indulge me.

    (Physics PhDs: true as far as actual academic physics goes. But they can get jobs doing stuff not terribly dissimilar to what they did in grad school, research oriented… outside of academia, for better pay and for those willing to seek them out, far more interesting life adventures. TBH, not having any interest in going into academia from the get-go is among the more blessed strokes of luck in my life, despite some aspects of my personality.)

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @nebulafox


    Is the demand for physicians in the US is going to go further up due to the physical problems that afflict the populace in the coming decades? I have zero clue how medicine works, so if this is obvious, indulge me.
     
    Demand for physician services has increased and will continue to increase for a variety of reasons, including population increase, the aging of the population, increased access, and increased demand.

    Physics PhDs: true as far as actual academic physics goes. But they can get jobs doing stuff not terribly dissimilar to what they did in grad school
     
    As we have discussed before, you don't have to tell me about it - I am friends with a few physicists who make megabucks as quants/modelers.

    My main point was that there are orders of magnitude greater demand for physicians than that for Physics Ph.D.'s, on top of the fact that the latter credential requires a higher cognitive profile still than for the former, thus amplifying the numerical disparity between the two fields.
  187. @Twinkie
    @Black Athena


    How the hell does cramming your brain with information you will never really need make you a better doctor?
     
    Your premise is wrong.

    a female neurosurgeon
     
    Neurosurgery is 80+% male. Every single top neurosurgeon I know is a male (I am on the board of a major, multi-state healthcare system, so my sampling size is larger than with most people). And this isn't due to "sexism" either.

    MCAT
     
    Also, MCAT is not a test that tests doctoring knowledge. That would be the USMLE (during and after med school) and the various board-certification tests after residency (which is typically required for credentialing at hospitals).

    I shared this story before, but a large medical specialty practice in my local areas some years ago had to let go of ALL of its black physician employees. The reason? They all failed the boards repeatedly and couldn't be credentialed at hospitals. Thems are how the cookie crumbles in the real world.

    Replies: @Black Athena

    They all failed the boards repeatedly and couldn’t be credentialed at hospitals. Thems are how the cookie crumbles in the real world.

    First, show us the evidence that happened. Your word alone, considering your character, is worthless. Second, saying your ‘story’ is the norm in the “real world” is an outright lie. Shame on you. There are about 50,000 active physicians in America, including neurosurgeons, who self-identify as black. Blacks are better represented in the medical profession than Mexicans, Native Americans and likely also a number of Asian and European ethnicities in the US . How do you reconcile that with your deplorable racist and sexist prejudices?

    Neurosurgery is 80+% male

    It was 100% male not so long ago. Sadly for you, mister male chauvinist, the cookie is crumbling differently today than it did a few decades ago. The arc of history is bending away from your ilk.

    Also, MCAT is not a test that tests doctoring knowledge. That would be the USMLE

    What the hell does the USMLE have to do with pre-meds facing the Organic Chemistry hurdle? Failed Logic 101 did you? The ability to think logically is far more useful than the ability to regurgitate rote-learned Organic Chem. Which may explain why you spend your time here instead of a hospital. You must have been ‘let go’ by your employers.

    M I rite or vot?

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Black Athena


    First, show us the evidence that happened.
     
    That's rather rich coming from someone who doesn't deal in evidences, period. I am not going to expose this practice to an EEOC investigation or bad publicity. If you have even the remotest internet research skills, look up the rate of passing for USMLE and boards for specialties by race online. Or you could also look at another proxy I cited already above - discipline rate among physicians by race.

    Blacks are better represented in the medical profession than Mexicans, Native Americans and likely also a number of Asian and European ethnicities in the US .
     
    Is this a parody?

    How do you reconcile that with your deplorable racist and sexist prejudices?
     
    Very well, knowing that my "racist and sexist prejudices" keep people alive.

    Sadly for you, mister male chauvinist, the cookie is crumbling differently today than it did a few decades ago. The arc of history is bending away from your ilk.
     
    I'm afraid the said arc isn't bending the way you think. Female physicians are overrepresented in family medicine, peds, and Ob-Gyn. They are never going to outnumber men in neurosurgery, orthopedics, radiology, etc. which require higher cognitive profiles (and high visuospatial intelligence, to boot).

    What the hell does the USMLE have to do with pre-meds facing the Organic Chemistry hurdle?
     
    The MCAT is a predictive test (about future medical student performance) as the GRE is for future graduate school performance and the LSAT is for for future law school performance, etc. All these tests have stood the test of time, because they offer high predictive values. There are other certification tests later on that test the required vocational skills. For medicine they are the USMLE and board certification tests.

    Which may explain why you spend your time here instead of a hospital. You must have been ‘let go’ by your employers.
     
    You must be new here.

    I am not a physician. I am on the board of a multi-state medical system (but my wife runs a hospital). And I can spend time here, because I am mostly retired. What's your excuse?

    Replies: @Black Athena

    , @Twinkie
    @Black Athena


    There are about 50,000 active physicians in America, including neurosurgeons, who self-identify as black.
     
    https://www.aamc.org/data-reports/workforce/interactive-data/figure-18-percentage-all-active-physicians-race/ethnicity-2018

    As of 2018, the racial breakdown of physicians in the U.S. according to AAMC was:

    White: 516,304 (56.2%)
    Asian: 157,025 (17.1%)
    Hispanic: 53,526 (5.8%)
    Black: 45,534 (5.0%)

    I can guarantee that blacks are less than 5% of neurosurgeons or any other prestigious (i.e. high cognitive profile) specialty. That's easy to glean from the fact that black doctors are more represented in primary care than any other major racial group of physicians.

    Replies: @Black Athena, @Twinkie

  188. @nebulafox
    @Twinkie

    Yeah, naturally conservative temperament sums up my mental image of an ideal MD elegantly: I wish I thought of those words. Add phlegmatic to that.

    I don't think it's outrageous to suggest that stuff like O-Chem tests for more than intelligence and the ability to connect info. It's looking for the kind of personality that will do well in med school... and who you want dealing with critically damaged human bodies. Maybe it isn't a consciously chosen filter, but it is an effective one, at least at a preliminary level.

    Is the demand for physicians in the US is going to go further up due to the physical problems that afflict the populace in the coming decades? I have zero clue how medicine works, so if this is obvious, indulge me.

    (Physics PhDs: true as far as actual academic physics goes. But they can get jobs doing stuff not terribly dissimilar to what they did in grad school, research oriented... outside of academia, for better pay and for those willing to seek them out, far more interesting life adventures. TBH, not having any interest in going into academia from the get-go is among the more blessed strokes of luck in my life, despite some aspects of my personality.)

    Replies: @Twinkie

    Is the demand for physicians in the US is going to go further up due to the physical problems that afflict the populace in the coming decades? I have zero clue how medicine works, so if this is obvious, indulge me.

    Demand for physician services has increased and will continue to increase for a variety of reasons, including population increase, the aging of the population, increased access, and increased demand.

    Physics PhDs: true as far as actual academic physics goes. But they can get jobs doing stuff not terribly dissimilar to what they did in grad school

    As we have discussed before, you don’t have to tell me about it – I am friends with a few physicists who make megabucks as quants/modelers.

    My main point was that there are orders of magnitude greater demand for physicians than that for Physics Ph.D.’s, on top of the fact that the latter credential requires a higher cognitive profile still than for the former, thus amplifying the numerical disparity between the two fields.

  189. @Black Athena
    @Twinkie


    They all failed the boards repeatedly and couldn’t be credentialed at hospitals. Thems are how the cookie crumbles in the real world.
     
    First, show us the evidence that happened. Your word alone, considering your character, is worthless. Second, saying your 'story' is the norm in the "real world” is an outright lie. Shame on you. There are about 50,000 active physicians in America, including neurosurgeons, who self-identify as black. Blacks are better represented in the medical profession than Mexicans, Native Americans and likely also a number of Asian and European ethnicities in the US . How do you reconcile that with your deplorable racist and sexist prejudices?

    Neurosurgery is 80+% male
     
    It was 100% male not so long ago. Sadly for you, mister male chauvinist, the cookie is crumbling differently today than it did a few decades ago. The arc of history is bending away from your ilk.

    Also, MCAT is not a test that tests doctoring knowledge. That would be the USMLE
     
    What the hell does the USMLE have to do with pre-meds facing the Organic Chemistry hurdle? Failed Logic 101 did you? The ability to think logically is far more useful than the ability to regurgitate rote-learned Organic Chem. Which may explain why you spend your time here instead of a hospital. You must have been 'let go' by your employers.

    M I rite or vot?

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Twinkie

    First, show us the evidence that happened.

    That’s rather rich coming from someone who doesn’t deal in evidences, period. I am not going to expose this practice to an EEOC investigation or bad publicity. If you have even the remotest internet research skills, look up the rate of passing for USMLE and boards for specialties by race online. Or you could also look at another proxy I cited already above – discipline rate among physicians by race.

    Blacks are better represented in the medical profession than Mexicans, Native Americans and likely also a number of Asian and European ethnicities in the US .

    Is this a parody?

    How do you reconcile that with your deplorable racist and sexist prejudices?

    Very well, knowing that my “racist and sexist prejudices” keep people alive.

    Sadly for you, mister male chauvinist, the cookie is crumbling differently today than it did a few decades ago. The arc of history is bending away from your ilk.

    I’m afraid the said arc isn’t bending the way you think. Female physicians are overrepresented in family medicine, peds, and Ob-Gyn. They are never going to outnumber men in neurosurgery, orthopedics, radiology, etc. which require higher cognitive profiles (and high visuospatial intelligence, to boot).

    What the hell does the USMLE have to do with pre-meds facing the Organic Chemistry hurdle?

    The MCAT is a predictive test (about future medical student performance) as the GRE is for future graduate school performance and the LSAT is for for future law school performance, etc. All these tests have stood the test of time, because they offer high predictive values. There are other certification tests later on that test the required vocational skills. For medicine they are the USMLE and board certification tests.

    Which may explain why you spend your time here instead of a hospital. You must have been ‘let go’ by your employers.

    You must be new here.

    I am not a physician. I am on the board of a multi-state medical system (but my wife runs a hospital). And I can spend time here, because I am mostly retired. What’s your excuse?

    • Replies: @Black Athena
    @Twinkie


    Is this a parody?
     
    Do you even know what the word parody means? Who am I parodying?

    my “racist and sexist prejudices” keep people alive.

     

    What a silly, pretentious narcissist you are. Do you also hate your own biological race, and your wife (if you actually have a wife)?

    There are other certification tests later on that test the required vocational skills. For medicine they are the USMLE and board certification tests.

     

    Again, answer my question: "What the hell does the USMLE have to do with pre-meds facing the Organic Chemistry hurdle?"

    I can spend time here, because I am mostly retired.
     
    So you lied about homeschooling all your children?

    Replies: @Twinkie

  190. @Black Athena
    @Twinkie


    They all failed the boards repeatedly and couldn’t be credentialed at hospitals. Thems are how the cookie crumbles in the real world.
     
    First, show us the evidence that happened. Your word alone, considering your character, is worthless. Second, saying your 'story' is the norm in the "real world” is an outright lie. Shame on you. There are about 50,000 active physicians in America, including neurosurgeons, who self-identify as black. Blacks are better represented in the medical profession than Mexicans, Native Americans and likely also a number of Asian and European ethnicities in the US . How do you reconcile that with your deplorable racist and sexist prejudices?

    Neurosurgery is 80+% male
     
    It was 100% male not so long ago. Sadly for you, mister male chauvinist, the cookie is crumbling differently today than it did a few decades ago. The arc of history is bending away from your ilk.

    Also, MCAT is not a test that tests doctoring knowledge. That would be the USMLE
     
    What the hell does the USMLE have to do with pre-meds facing the Organic Chemistry hurdle? Failed Logic 101 did you? The ability to think logically is far more useful than the ability to regurgitate rote-learned Organic Chem. Which may explain why you spend your time here instead of a hospital. You must have been 'let go' by your employers.

    M I rite or vot?

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Twinkie

    There are about 50,000 active physicians in America, including neurosurgeons, who self-identify as black.

    https://www.aamc.org/data-reports/workforce/interactive-data/figure-18-percentage-all-active-physicians-race/ethnicity-2018

    As of 2018, the racial breakdown of physicians in the U.S. according to AAMC was:

    White: 516,304 (56.2%)
    Asian: 157,025 (17.1%)
    Hispanic: 53,526 (5.8%)
    Black: 45,534 (5.0%)

    I can guarantee that blacks are less than 5% of neurosurgeons or any other prestigious (i.e. high cognitive profile) specialty. That’s easy to glean from the fact that black doctors are more represented in primary care than any other major racial group of physicians.

    • Thanks: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @Black Athena
    @Twinkie


    As of 2018, the racial breakdown of physicians in the U.S. according to AAMC was:

    White: 516,304 (56.2%)
    Asian: 157,025 (17.1%)
    Hispanic: 53,526 (5.8%)
    Black: 45,534 (5.0%)

     

    I got my numbers from this site:

    https://www.fsmb.org/physician-census/

    It has the numbers from its 2020 census and the count for active licensed physicians in the US is 1,018,776, and 5% of that is around 50,000 like I said. Whether it is 45,000 or 50,000 is a moot point, since either number proves you lied through your teeth in your racist, mocking 'story' for which you refuse to provide the evidence when challenged, using a lame excuse.

    I can guarantee that blacks are less than 5% of neurosurgeons or any other prestigious (i.e. high cognitive profile) specialty.

     

    So what? It is still higher proportionally than Mexicans or Native Americans/Alaskans and a number of Asian and European ethnicities. Compare the representation of black Americans to other ethnicities of similar socio-economic status such as Hmong, Vietnamese, Myanmarese, poor whites etc.

    There were 7,126 Blacks in Medical Schools in 2020-2021 compared to 6,295 Hispanics despite Hispanics being more numerous 18.7% vs 13.4%. The bottom of the heap were the Native Americans and Alaskans at just 183. Since you are such a racist, note that they belong to your race. Their population is about a tenth of the black population so their representation is only about a quarter that of blacks. Why aren't you mocking the "cognitive profile" of your racial cousins?

    Source: https://www.aamc.org/media/6131/download
    , @Twinkie
    @Twinkie

    After commenting, I became curious about the proportion of neurosurgeons who are blacks, so I looked up the available AAMC data, specifically Tables 12 and 13, from which I compiled the following:

    Total no. of female neurosurgeons: 517 (9.16% of all neurosurgeons)
    Total no. of male neurosurgeons: 5,128 (90.84% of all neurosurgeons)

    Total no. of female black neurosurgeons: 33 (6.38% of all female neurosurgeons)
    Total no. of male black neurosurgeons: 183 (3.57% of all male neurosurgeons)
    Total no. of black neurosurgeons: 216 (3.83% of all neurosurgeons - so yes, blacks are underrepresented in neurosurgery on top of already being underrepresented in medicine)

    Replies: @Johann Ricke

  191. @Twinkie
    @Black Athena


    There are about 50,000 active physicians in America, including neurosurgeons, who self-identify as black.
     
    https://www.aamc.org/data-reports/workforce/interactive-data/figure-18-percentage-all-active-physicians-race/ethnicity-2018

    As of 2018, the racial breakdown of physicians in the U.S. according to AAMC was:

    White: 516,304 (56.2%)
    Asian: 157,025 (17.1%)
    Hispanic: 53,526 (5.8%)
    Black: 45,534 (5.0%)

    I can guarantee that blacks are less than 5% of neurosurgeons or any other prestigious (i.e. high cognitive profile) specialty. That's easy to glean from the fact that black doctors are more represented in primary care than any other major racial group of physicians.

    Replies: @Black Athena, @Twinkie

    As of 2018, the racial breakdown of physicians in the U.S. according to AAMC was:

    White: 516,304 (56.2%)
    Asian: 157,025 (17.1%)
    Hispanic: 53,526 (5.8%)
    Black: 45,534 (5.0%)

    I got my numbers from this site:

    https://www.fsmb.org/physician-census/

    It has the numbers from its 2020 census and the count for active licensed physicians in the US is 1,018,776, and 5% of that is around 50,000 like I said. Whether it is 45,000 or 50,000 is a moot point, since either number proves you lied through your teeth in your racist, mocking ‘story’ for which you refuse to provide the evidence when challenged, using a lame excuse.

    I can guarantee that blacks are less than 5% of neurosurgeons or any other prestigious (i.e. high cognitive profile) specialty.

    So what? It is still higher proportionally than Mexicans or Native Americans/Alaskans and a number of Asian and European ethnicities. Compare the representation of black Americans to other ethnicities of similar socio-economic status such as Hmong, Vietnamese, Myanmarese, poor whites etc.

    There were 7,126 Blacks in Medical Schools in 2020-2021 compared to 6,295 Hispanics despite Hispanics being more numerous 18.7% vs 13.4%. The bottom of the heap were the Native Americans and Alaskans at just 183. Since you are such a racist, note that they belong to your race. Their population is about a tenth of the black population so their representation is only about a quarter that of blacks. Why aren’t you mocking the “cognitive profile” of your racial cousins?

    Source: https://www.aamc.org/media/6131/download

  192. @Twinkie
    @Black Athena


    There are about 50,000 active physicians in America, including neurosurgeons, who self-identify as black.
     
    https://www.aamc.org/data-reports/workforce/interactive-data/figure-18-percentage-all-active-physicians-race/ethnicity-2018

    As of 2018, the racial breakdown of physicians in the U.S. according to AAMC was:

    White: 516,304 (56.2%)
    Asian: 157,025 (17.1%)
    Hispanic: 53,526 (5.8%)
    Black: 45,534 (5.0%)

    I can guarantee that blacks are less than 5% of neurosurgeons or any other prestigious (i.e. high cognitive profile) specialty. That's easy to glean from the fact that black doctors are more represented in primary care than any other major racial group of physicians.

    Replies: @Black Athena, @Twinkie

    After commenting, I became curious about the proportion of neurosurgeons who are blacks, so I looked up the available AAMC data, specifically Tables 12 and 13, from which I compiled the following:

    Total no. of female neurosurgeons: 517 (9.16% of all neurosurgeons)
    Total no. of male neurosurgeons: 5,128 (90.84% of all neurosurgeons)

    Total no. of female black neurosurgeons: 33 (6.38% of all female neurosurgeons)
    Total no. of male black neurosurgeons: 183 (3.57% of all male neurosurgeons)
    Total no. of black neurosurgeons: 216 (3.83% of all neurosurgeons – so yes, blacks are underrepresented in neurosurgery on top of already being underrepresented in medicine)

    • Thanks: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @Johann Ricke
    @Twinkie

    With apologies to Ben Carson, do you really want to be a guinea pig for black surgeons who might have gotten mulligans in the process of getting their certifications and almost definitely did get them during college admissions?

    Replies: @Twinkie

  193. @Twinkie
    @Black Athena


    First, show us the evidence that happened.
     
    That's rather rich coming from someone who doesn't deal in evidences, period. I am not going to expose this practice to an EEOC investigation or bad publicity. If you have even the remotest internet research skills, look up the rate of passing for USMLE and boards for specialties by race online. Or you could also look at another proxy I cited already above - discipline rate among physicians by race.

    Blacks are better represented in the medical profession than Mexicans, Native Americans and likely also a number of Asian and European ethnicities in the US .
     
    Is this a parody?

    How do you reconcile that with your deplorable racist and sexist prejudices?
     
    Very well, knowing that my "racist and sexist prejudices" keep people alive.

    Sadly for you, mister male chauvinist, the cookie is crumbling differently today than it did a few decades ago. The arc of history is bending away from your ilk.
     
    I'm afraid the said arc isn't bending the way you think. Female physicians are overrepresented in family medicine, peds, and Ob-Gyn. They are never going to outnumber men in neurosurgery, orthopedics, radiology, etc. which require higher cognitive profiles (and high visuospatial intelligence, to boot).

    What the hell does the USMLE have to do with pre-meds facing the Organic Chemistry hurdle?
     
    The MCAT is a predictive test (about future medical student performance) as the GRE is for future graduate school performance and the LSAT is for for future law school performance, etc. All these tests have stood the test of time, because they offer high predictive values. There are other certification tests later on that test the required vocational skills. For medicine they are the USMLE and board certification tests.

    Which may explain why you spend your time here instead of a hospital. You must have been ‘let go’ by your employers.
     
    You must be new here.

    I am not a physician. I am on the board of a multi-state medical system (but my wife runs a hospital). And I can spend time here, because I am mostly retired. What's your excuse?

    Replies: @Black Athena

    Is this a parody?

    Do you even know what the word parody means? Who am I parodying?

    my “racist and sexist prejudices” keep people alive.

    What a silly, pretentious narcissist you are. Do you also hate your own biological race, and your wife (if you actually have a wife)?

    There are other certification tests later on that test the required vocational skills. For medicine they are the USMLE and board certification tests.

    Again, answer my question: “What the hell does the USMLE have to do with pre-meds facing the Organic Chemistry hurdle?”

    I can spend time here, because I am mostly retired.

    So you lied about homeschooling all your children?

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Black Athena


    Do you even know what the word parody means?
     
    Yao Ming can dunk on that 5'5" black guy, so Asians are awesome at basketball.

    Compare the representation of black Americans to other ethnicities of similar socio-economic status
     
    Blacks benefit massively from affirmative action to medical schools:

    https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/med-1.png

    https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/med1.jpg

    And regrettably, the underperformance of blacks is not just a economic issue, as can be seen here:

    https://www.jbhe.com/latest/news/1-22-09/satracialgapfigure.gif

    That's rights - cognitively black students who take the SAT from the highest economic cohort barely outscores whites in utter poverty and underscores lower and lower middle class whites. Their gap with Asians is even bigger still.


    Do you also hate your own biological race, and your wife (if you actually have a wife)?
     
    Only men with wives can make and understand jokes like this: https://www.unz.com/isteve/why-has-deaf-identity-politics-stalled-out-compared-to-the-transgender-mania/#comment-4964261

    And I neither hate nor love my own biological race. Race is important sociologically, but means very little individually (to me anyhow), especially since I live in an area that is mostly white and Asian. My neighbors are 3% Hispanic and 1% black, so I don't have to deal with underclass social pathologies much. The few blacks and Hispanics who live near me are Talented Twentieth-types.

    And I love my wife more than life itself (and, yes, she is a white lady): https://www.unz.com/anepigone/looking-for-love-in-all-the-web-places/#comment-4713317


    “What the hell does the USMLE have to do with pre-meds facing the Organic Chemistry hurdle?”
     
    Organic chemistry is a useful foundational course that also happens work well to weed out people who are not suitable for medicine. People who pass organic chemistry will do better later in USMLE than those who struggle with it.

    So you lied about homeschooling all your children?
     
    Is English not your first language? It's precisely because I am mostly retired that I can homeschool my children.

    Replies: @Black Athena

  194. @Twinkie
    @Twinkie

    After commenting, I became curious about the proportion of neurosurgeons who are blacks, so I looked up the available AAMC data, specifically Tables 12 and 13, from which I compiled the following:

    Total no. of female neurosurgeons: 517 (9.16% of all neurosurgeons)
    Total no. of male neurosurgeons: 5,128 (90.84% of all neurosurgeons)

    Total no. of female black neurosurgeons: 33 (6.38% of all female neurosurgeons)
    Total no. of male black neurosurgeons: 183 (3.57% of all male neurosurgeons)
    Total no. of black neurosurgeons: 216 (3.83% of all neurosurgeons - so yes, blacks are underrepresented in neurosurgery on top of already being underrepresented in medicine)

    Replies: @Johann Ricke

    With apologies to Ben Carson, do you really want to be a guinea pig for black surgeons who might have gotten mulligans in the process of getting their certifications and almost definitely did get them during college admissions?

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Johann Ricke


    With apologies to Ben Carson, do you really want to be a guinea pig for black surgeons who might have gotten mulligans in the process of getting their certifications and almost definitely did get them during college admissions?
     
    As you can see in my reply to "Black Athena," blacks are given large preferences in medical school admissions. At the lower cognitive cohort, in which 5.9% of Asian and 8% of white applicants are accepted, a massive rate of 56.4% of blacks with the same MCAT score range is accepted. That translates to lots of black med students who drop out, who never pass the USMLE or board certification tests for their specialties, and those who are disciplined - all at higher rates than whites and Asians (aka mismatch). If you know nothing but the races of the doctors, yes, it makes sense to avoid black ones.

    That said, when you pick a doctor, you are picking an individual, not a race. As I mentioned before (to you, I think), my orthopedic surgeon is black, albeit an immigrant from Africa (note that African immigrants are highly selected and do well educationally and economically in the U.S.). He is an outstanding surgeon - my wife personally picked him to work on my injuries. The Ben Carsons of the world are exceptionally rare, but they do exist! And we ought to recognize excellence wherever we see it, regardless of race.

    That, of course, is a totally difference issue than a sociological and demographic one. To wit, in an effort to boost black numbers at medical schools, the latter are accepting a large fraction of those black applicants who are clearly not up to par intellectually. That's the real crime and tragedy here, not requiring the mastery of organic chemistry as undergraduates.

  195. @Black Athena
    @Twinkie


    Is this a parody?
     
    Do you even know what the word parody means? Who am I parodying?

    my “racist and sexist prejudices” keep people alive.

     

    What a silly, pretentious narcissist you are. Do you also hate your own biological race, and your wife (if you actually have a wife)?

    There are other certification tests later on that test the required vocational skills. For medicine they are the USMLE and board certification tests.

     

    Again, answer my question: "What the hell does the USMLE have to do with pre-meds facing the Organic Chemistry hurdle?"

    I can spend time here, because I am mostly retired.
     
    So you lied about homeschooling all your children?

    Replies: @Twinkie

    Do you even know what the word parody means?

    Yao Ming can dunk on that 5’5″ black guy, so Asians are awesome at basketball.

    Compare the representation of black Americans to other ethnicities of similar socio-economic status

    Blacks benefit massively from affirmative action to medical schools:

    And regrettably, the underperformance of blacks is not just a economic issue, as can be seen here:

    That’s rights – cognitively black students who take the SAT from the highest economic cohort barely outscores whites in utter poverty and underscores lower and lower middle class whites. Their gap with Asians is even bigger still.

    Do you also hate your own biological race, and your wife (if you actually have a wife)?

    Only men with wives can make and understand jokes like this: https://www.unz.com/isteve/why-has-deaf-identity-politics-stalled-out-compared-to-the-transgender-mania/#comment-4964261

    And I neither hate nor love my own biological race. Race is important sociologically, but means very little individually (to me anyhow), especially since I live in an area that is mostly white and Asian. My neighbors are 3% Hispanic and 1% black, so I don’t have to deal with underclass social pathologies much. The few blacks and Hispanics who live near me are Talented Twentieth-types.

    And I love my wife more than life itself (and, yes, she is a white lady): https://www.unz.com/anepigone/looking-for-love-in-all-the-web-places/#comment-4713317

    “What the hell does the USMLE have to do with pre-meds facing the Organic Chemistry hurdle?”

    Organic chemistry is a useful foundational course that also happens work well to weed out people who are not suitable for medicine. People who pass organic chemistry will do better later in USMLE than those who struggle with it.

    So you lied about homeschooling all your children?

    Is English not your first language? It’s precisely because I am mostly retired that I can homeschool my children.

    • Thanks: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @Black Athena
    @Twinkie


    People who pass organic chemistry will do better later in USMLE than those who struggle with it./blockquote>

    How do they score better than people who didn't pass organic chemistry and were therefore already "weeded out" of Medical School? You really are logically challenged.

    black students who take the SAT from the highest economic cohort barely outscores whites in utter poverty and underscores lower and lower middle class whites.
     
    You are stubbornly clinging to the SAT and to Organic Chemistry while Colleges and Universities are in the process of de-emphasizing the former and Medical Schools the latter. This is another example of the Arc of History moving away from your kind.


    https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/med1.jpg

    I see you picked a chart that:

    1. Does not include your racial cousins, the Native Americans and Alaskans.

    2. Shows Hispanics outscoring Whites by a bigger margin (2.6) than Whites outscored Blacks (1.9).

    That chart must have been very hard to find. You had to go back a few years to finally find it. Why go through all that trouble just to humiliate Whites? What made you stop sucking up to them?

    It’s precisely because I am mostly retired that I can homeschool my children.
     
    You didn't get my point. Homeschooling that many children of different ages must be a full-time job. Plus you claim to have a part time job as well. So how the hell do you find the time for Unz.com?
     
  196. @Johann Ricke
    @Twinkie

    With apologies to Ben Carson, do you really want to be a guinea pig for black surgeons who might have gotten mulligans in the process of getting their certifications and almost definitely did get them during college admissions?

    Replies: @Twinkie

    With apologies to Ben Carson, do you really want to be a guinea pig for black surgeons who might have gotten mulligans in the process of getting their certifications and almost definitely did get them during college admissions?

    As you can see in my reply to “Black Athena,” blacks are given large preferences in medical school admissions. At the lower cognitive cohort, in which 5.9% of Asian and 8% of white applicants are accepted, a massive rate of 56.4% of blacks with the same MCAT score range is accepted. That translates to lots of black med students who drop out, who never pass the USMLE or board certification tests for their specialties, and those who are disciplined – all at higher rates than whites and Asians (aka mismatch). If you know nothing but the races of the doctors, yes, it makes sense to avoid black ones.

    That said, when you pick a doctor, you are picking an individual, not a race. As I mentioned before (to you, I think), my orthopedic surgeon is black, albeit an immigrant from Africa (note that African immigrants are highly selected and do well educationally and economically in the U.S.). He is an outstanding surgeon – my wife personally picked him to work on my injuries. The Ben Carsons of the world are exceptionally rare, but they do exist! And we ought to recognize excellence wherever we see it, regardless of race.

    That, of course, is a totally difference issue than a sociological and demographic one. To wit, in an effort to boost black numbers at medical schools, the latter are accepting a large fraction of those black applicants who are clearly not up to par intellectually. That’s the real crime and tragedy here, not requiring the mastery of organic chemistry as undergraduates.

    • Thanks: Johann Ricke
  197. @Twinkie
    @Black Athena


    Do you even know what the word parody means?
     
    Yao Ming can dunk on that 5'5" black guy, so Asians are awesome at basketball.

    Compare the representation of black Americans to other ethnicities of similar socio-economic status
     
    Blacks benefit massively from affirmative action to medical schools:

    https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/med-1.png

    https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/med1.jpg

    And regrettably, the underperformance of blacks is not just a economic issue, as can be seen here:

    https://www.jbhe.com/latest/news/1-22-09/satracialgapfigure.gif

    That's rights - cognitively black students who take the SAT from the highest economic cohort barely outscores whites in utter poverty and underscores lower and lower middle class whites. Their gap with Asians is even bigger still.


    Do you also hate your own biological race, and your wife (if you actually have a wife)?
     
    Only men with wives can make and understand jokes like this: https://www.unz.com/isteve/why-has-deaf-identity-politics-stalled-out-compared-to-the-transgender-mania/#comment-4964261

    And I neither hate nor love my own biological race. Race is important sociologically, but means very little individually (to me anyhow), especially since I live in an area that is mostly white and Asian. My neighbors are 3% Hispanic and 1% black, so I don't have to deal with underclass social pathologies much. The few blacks and Hispanics who live near me are Talented Twentieth-types.

    And I love my wife more than life itself (and, yes, she is a white lady): https://www.unz.com/anepigone/looking-for-love-in-all-the-web-places/#comment-4713317


    “What the hell does the USMLE have to do with pre-meds facing the Organic Chemistry hurdle?”
     
    Organic chemistry is a useful foundational course that also happens work well to weed out people who are not suitable for medicine. People who pass organic chemistry will do better later in USMLE than those who struggle with it.

    So you lied about homeschooling all your children?
     
    Is English not your first language? It's precisely because I am mostly retired that I can homeschool my children.

    Replies: @Black Athena

    People who pass organic chemistry will do better later in USMLE than those who struggle with it./blockquote>

    How do they score better than people who didn’t pass organic chemistry and were therefore already “weeded out” of Medical School? You really are logically challenged.

    black students who take the SAT from the highest economic cohort barely outscores whites in utter poverty and underscores lower and lower middle class whites.

    You are stubbornly clinging to the SAT and to Organic Chemistry while Colleges and Universities are in the process of de-emphasizing the former and Medical Schools the latter. This is another example of the Arc of History moving away from your kind.

    I see you picked a chart that:

    1. Does not include your racial cousins, the Native Americans and Alaskans.

    2. Shows Hispanics outscoring Whites by a bigger margin (2.6) than Whites outscored Blacks (1.9).

    That chart must have been very hard to find. You had to go back a few years to finally find it. Why go through all that trouble just to humiliate Whites? What made you stop sucking up to them?

    It’s precisely because I am mostly retired that I can homeschool my children.

    You didn’t get my point. Homeschooling that many children of different ages must be a full-time job. Plus you claim to have a part time job as well. So how the hell do you find the time for Unz.com?

  198. If you know nothing but the races of the doctors, yes, it makes sense to avoid black ones.

    You have no real evidence based on outcomes to justify the above. On the other hand there is real world evidence that black patients have better outcomes when treated by black doctors. What does that tell you?

    Actually, it makes sense to avoid the white and asian dominated American Healthcare System period:

    https://www.internationalinsurance.com/health/systems/

    “Among the 11 nations studied in this report – Australia, Canada, the Netherlands, Germany, Switzerland, France, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden, the United Kingdom, and the United States—the U.S. ranks last, as it did in 2010, 2007, 2006, and 2014”

    “Most troubling, the U.S. Healthcare System fails to achieve better health outcomes than the other countries, and as shown in the earlier editions, the U.S. is last or near last on dimensions of access, efficiency, and equity.”

    Based on a broad range of indicators, the U.S. health system is an outlier, spending far more but falling short of the performance achieved by other high-income countries. The results suggest the U.S. health care system should look at other countries’ approaches if it wants to achieve an affordable high-performing health care system that serves all Americans.

    https://www.internationalinsurance.com/health/systems/

    The US Healthcare System is ranked 37th in the world, below the afro-caribbean nation Dominica; the african nation Morocco; the hispanic nations Colombia, Costa Rica and Chile; the arab nations Oman (#8), Saudi Arabia and Dubai.

    By the way, South Korea is ranked 58th, below the Caribbean nations Dominica, Barbados, Jamaica, Dominican Republic and Cuba; and below the southeast asian nations Singapore (#6), Brunei, Thailand and Malaysia.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Black Athena


    You have no real evidence based on outcomes to justify the above.
     
    I listed and linked to numerous evidences such as the disparities in rates of complaints and discipline by race, the massive affirmative action preferences for blacks (and to a lesser extent Hispanics) that allows matriculation of a huge fraction of them even in the lower test score cohorts for medical school, etc. If you are wont to simply shout slogans and assertions and ignore evidences in plain sight, there is really no discussion here.

    On the other hand there is real world evidence that black patients have better outcomes when treated by black doctors. What does that tell you?
     
    You mean this?

    https://hbr.org/2018/08/research-having-a-black-doctor-led-black-men-to-receive-more-effective-care

    And the actual study: https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w24787/w24787.pdf

    Let's see what the conclusion of this study that is often cited as "blacks doctors treating blacks have better health outcomes" says:


    A new NBER study looks at how changing this ratio might improve health outcomes — and save lives. Researchers set up an experiment that randomly assigned black male patients to black or nonblack male doctors, to see whether having a doctor of their race affected patients’ decisions about preventive care. They found that black men seen by black doctors agreed to more, and more invasive, preventive services than those seen by nonblack doctors.
     
    What this tells me is that black patients tend to be racist and listen more to black doctors than non-black doctors, not that black doctors provide more effective care. The solution for closing this "gap" is educating blacks to be less racist.

    Actually, it makes sense to avoid the white and asian dominated American Healthcare System period
     
    Well, then, I urge you to avoid white and Asian doctors and see black doctors only for your own care and that of your loved ones. Pretty please.

    As for the rest of nonsense you posted about the "healthcare ranking" that factors in things like "equity" instead of clearly measurable treatment outcomes such as cancer survival rate in five years, I've already commented on such things at lengths on Unz and won't repeat here, except to post these charts:

    https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/12/09/article-1234276-078644B1000005DC-334_468x316.jpg

    https://b-i.forbesimg.com/theapothecary/files/2013/11/CONCORD-table12.jpg

    I have been remarkably patient through all your ad hominem and diversion tactics, but even I have limits. I won't try to educate someone who is too dumb to realize that she needs an education. Someone in Iowa once told me not to try to teach a pig how to sing - that such an effort is futile - that a pig won't ever sing and the attempt will only annoy the pig.

    Good luck with your future medical care.

  199. @Black Athena

    If you know nothing but the races of the doctors, yes, it makes sense to avoid black ones.
     
    You have no real evidence based on outcomes to justify the above. On the other hand there is real world evidence that black patients have better outcomes when treated by black doctors. What does that tell you?

    Actually, it makes sense to avoid the white and asian dominated American Healthcare System period:

    https://www.internationalinsurance.com/health/systems/

    “Among the 11 nations studied in this report – Australia, Canada, the Netherlands, Germany, Switzerland, France, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden, the United Kingdom, and the United States—the U.S. ranks last, as it did in 2010, 2007, 2006, and 2014”

    “Most troubling, the U.S. Healthcare System fails to achieve better health outcomes than the other countries, and as shown in the earlier editions, the U.S. is last or near last on dimensions of access, efficiency, and equity.”

    Based on a broad range of indicators, the U.S. health system is an outlier, spending far more but falling short of the performance achieved by other high-income countries. The results suggest the U.S. health care system should look at other countries’ approaches if it wants to achieve an affordable high-performing health care system that serves all Americans.
     
    https://www.internationalinsurance.com/health/systems/

    The US Healthcare System is ranked 37th in the world, below the afro-caribbean nation Dominica; the african nation Morocco; the hispanic nations Colombia, Costa Rica and Chile; the arab nations Oman (#8), Saudi Arabia and Dubai.

    By the way, South Korea is ranked 58th, below the Caribbean nations Dominica, Barbados, Jamaica, Dominican Republic and Cuba; and below the southeast asian nations Singapore (#6), Brunei, Thailand and Malaysia.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    You have no real evidence based on outcomes to justify the above.

    I listed and linked to numerous evidences such as the disparities in rates of complaints and discipline by race, the massive affirmative action preferences for blacks (and to a lesser extent Hispanics) that allows matriculation of a huge fraction of them even in the lower test score cohorts for medical school, etc. If you are wont to simply shout slogans and assertions and ignore evidences in plain sight, there is really no discussion here.

    On the other hand there is real world evidence that black patients have better outcomes when treated by black doctors. What does that tell you?

    You mean this?

    https://hbr.org/2018/08/research-having-a-black-doctor-led-black-men-to-receive-more-effective-care

    And the actual study: https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w24787/w24787.pdf

    Let’s see what the conclusion of this study that is often cited as “blacks doctors treating blacks have better health outcomes” says:

    A new NBER study looks at how changing this ratio might improve health outcomes — and save lives. Researchers set up an experiment that randomly assigned black male patients to black or nonblack male doctors, to see whether having a doctor of their race affected patients’ decisions about preventive care. They found that black men seen by black doctors agreed to more, and more invasive, preventive services than those seen by nonblack doctors.

    What this tells me is that black patients tend to be racist and listen more to black doctors than non-black doctors, not that black doctors provide more effective care. The solution for closing this “gap” is educating blacks to be less racist.

    Actually, it makes sense to avoid the white and asian dominated American Healthcare System period

    Well, then, I urge you to avoid white and Asian doctors and see black doctors only for your own care and that of your loved ones. Pretty please.

    As for the rest of nonsense you posted about the “healthcare ranking” that factors in things like “equity” instead of clearly measurable treatment outcomes such as cancer survival rate in five years, I’ve already commented on such things at lengths on Unz and won’t repeat here, except to post these charts:

    I have been remarkably patient through all your ad hominem and diversion tactics, but even I have limits. I won’t try to educate someone who is too dumb to realize that she needs an education. Someone in Iowa once told me not to try to teach a pig how to sing – that such an effort is futile – that a pig won’t ever sing and the attempt will only annoy the pig.

    Good luck with your future medical care.

  200. I listed and linked to numerous evidences such as the disparities in rates of complaints and discipline by race

    First what does that have to do with outcomes which is what really matters? Black doctors got better outcomes in the one comparison that is available. And the US was last in overall outcomes in the comparison with peer nations above.

    Second, complaints as we have seen with the “Karen” phenomenon are heavily skewed by racists making false accusations. Here is what you showed:

    California Physicians

    Physicians with Complaints European 28.0% African 43.0% Latin 36.5% Asian 24.7%
    Physicians with Investigations European 6.7% African 11.7% Latin 9.7% Asian 5.3%
    Physicians Disciplined European 1.0% African 1.5% Latin 1.9% Asian 0.8%

    Africans got more Karens complaining but it was Hispanics who got disciplined the most. And the percentage of Investigations leading to Discipline is higher for Asians, Hispanics and Whites than for blacks.

    What this tells me is that black patients tend to be racist

    Shame on you for blaming the victims not the victimizers. FYI mister racist, patients of your own race are in the same boat as blacks and hispanics:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4638275/

    In the United States, people of color face disparities in access to health care, the quality of care received, and health outcomes. The attitudes and behaviors of health care providers have been identified as one of many factors that contribute to health disparities.

    People of color are also generally less satisfied with their interactions with health care providers. The National Healthcare Disparities Report showed that White patients received better quality of care than Black American, Hispanic, American Indian, and Asian patients.

    People of color also face disparities in terms of morbidity, mortality, and health status. Black Americans, Hispanic Americans, and American Indians have higher infant mortality rates than White and Asian Americans.

    Conclusions. Most health care providers appear to have implicit bias in terms of positive attitudes toward Whites and negative attitudes toward people of color.

    As for the rest of nonsense you posted about the “healthcare ranking” that factors in things like “equity” instead of clearly measurable treatment outcomes such as cancer survival rate in five years

    So stupid and so dishonest. As usual you are not arguing in good faith. You don’t really care about the truth. The leading cause of death by a wide margin is coronary heart disease. All cancers combined do not come close to matching it. Yet here you are acting like you disproved the low international rank of the US Healthcare System by focusing your small, narrow mind on rectal cancer and prostrate cancer etc. Lol.

    even I have limits.

    Now run away with your tail between your legs.

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