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From Slate:

Let the Mystery Be?

Researchers may soon isolate the genetic roots of homosexuality. As a scientist, that excites me. But as a gay man, I worry about what might happen next.
By JEREMY YODER

JUNE 18, 20195:50 AM

… Last year, a team working with very large datasets from the U.K. Biobank and the “personal genomics” company 23andMe reported, at two different conferences, that they’ve identified about 40 genes at which different variants are associated with differences in orientation. Adding up the effects of many more genes into “polygenic scores” accounted for up to 20 percent of variation in sexual orientation—not the full genetic effect seen in twin studies, but not nothing. The collaborators haven’t published a formal peer-reviewed article yet, but it looks likely that the final, fully reported project will be solid work.

Interesting.

I think this is for homosexual males, not females.

J. Michael Bailey’s study of Australian twins in the 1990s found about 20-25% concordance, which is both higher than random chance but not really all that high either.

It will be interesting what other traits male homosexuality’s gene patterns will be similar to.

 
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  1. It will be interesting what other traits male homosexuality’s gene patterns will be similar to.

    Bestiality.

  2. Anon[199] • Disclaimer says:

    J. Michael Bailey’s study of Australian twins in the 1990s found about 20-25% concordance

    Do you mean 20 percent or 0.2, which is 14 percent (you square it, 0.2 x 0.2)?

    At any rate, you’re right, the genetic correlation is there, but it’s weak. Most traits are in the 0.4 to 0.5 range of heritability. A few, like body weight, are higher, BW at 0.7, 0.8 for adults. Some, like left-handedness, and gayness. are lower.

    I’ve read that the lower ones may not be quite as strictly heritable so much as they set you up in a way that if various post-genomic, post-mitosis mutations or “Waddington valley” chances occur during fetal development or very early childhood you veer into being gay, or left handed.

  3. Among proponents of the right to abortion, there are still many rather naive people who assume that women’s “choice” is all that matters and beyond that the right to kill fetuses can never be misused. The virtual eradication of mongoloids, well, that doesn’t disturb too many feminists because, let’s face it, it is really convenient. The elimination of female fetuses in some Asian countries doesn’t fit comfortably with the usual women’s-rights rhetoric, but those countries are so far away. But the potential for in utero nullification of homosexual children-to-be? Maybe that might jar some of the wokiest people into a reconsideration of abortion.

    • Replies: @Flip
    @Tono Bungay


    But the potential for in utero nullification of homosexual children-to-be? Maybe that might jar some of the wokiest people into a reconsideration of abortion.

     

    If you really want to do some major league trolling, start thanking the young women on the street asking for donations for Planned Parenthood for keeping the black population down.
    , @fish
    @Tono Bungay


    Maybe that might jar some of the wokiest people into a reconsideration of abortion.
     
    Never. The last path for escape from potential responsibility will be defended unto death!
    , @stillCARealist
    @Tono Bungay

    But homosexuals have so few children. Wouldn't its genetic basis sort of die out over time? I mean, especially since it's been normalized, the guys don't even bother with sham marriages anymore. Their fertility should be getting even lower. The lesbians never seem to produce more than one kid, and that's paired with a woman who has zero.

  4. Anon[199] • Disclaimer says:

    J. Michael Bailey’s study of Australian twins in the 1990s found about 20-25% concordance, which is both higher than random chance but not really all that high either.

    I see that Michael Bailey is participating in a conference that looks like a sort of satellite Intellectual Dark Web get together. I think we can propose a companion to O’Sullivan’s Law: All individuals who are not perfectly woke will over time end up associating only with the right wing, even if they do not characterize themselves as such (because they are shunned by the woke and the right wing are the only people who will give them a platform and treat them like humans).

    • Agree: byrresheim
  5. i believe humans have some kind of imprinting for seuxal gratification and arousal. I believe the first or first few such experiences determine what a pubescent boy will seek to repeat. for this reason, adult homosexuals groom pubescent boys of certain types. my guess is the traits are there–uaing bug 5 terminology, they involve low disgust (or high tolerance for things others find disgusting), high neuroticism, relatively high conscientitousness, etc. these traits are recognizable by the adult, but it take the stimulation of the seuxal activity to set off the chain reaction.

    i think that explains the not-very-high correlation that’s higher than random.

  6. 2043 –

    European parliament votes mandatory homo-gene implantation for all newly conceived children in name of diversity and LGBTQWFKSJS rights .

    • Replies: @Zedrick
    @Other Side

    Do you really think it will take that long?

    , @Anonymous
    @Other Side

    That's assuming that EU Parliament will still exist in 2043. That's far from certain. 50/50 at best.

  7. I think with females, as is with other things- it will be different….

  8. *test*

    -not sure did unz eat my comment,or this is how it works,don’t publish this one,just checking-

  9. “But as a gay man, I worry about what might happen next.”

    I wonder what he might worry about? That homosexuals might a quire even more political and social power than they have now?

    That homosexual scientists will figure out how to engineer even more homosexual males, so guys like this will have an endless supply of twinks?

  10. Anonymous[337] • Disclaimer says:

    Its great news for parents who want choice about aborting homosexual children.

    Ask Butt Edge if he supports a womans’s right to abort gay fetuses. What other traits and behaviors abilities are genetically heritable ? Naturally they must vary by ancestry groups exposed to different evolutionary forces.

    Science is good.

    • Replies: @DCThrowback
    @Anonymous

    yet another way to sever the ties that bind the "coalition of the fringes"

  11. Has the Australian twins study been replicated or followed up on? I wonder if some were still “in the closet” at the time?

    We know environmental factors can contribute (e.g. sexual abuse), but I would be surprised if there wasn’t a significant genetic factor, as well. At least a contributing factor anyways.

  12. Believe it or not, there are many more explanations for homosexuality than just the ‘gay germ’. Dutton has many that I hadn’t heard before – unfortunately my memory is junk.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @The Cruncher

    I don't have thirty minutes to hear this through. Does he get around to my pet theory-- that in most cultures, queers have to marry and breed like everyone else? And they have more kids, because nothing gets you out of the hated sex act like pregnancy.

    Replies: @Thea, @Anonymous

  13. Semi-related, but has anyone asked the left lately on whether once abortion is legal at any stage of pregnancy if it’s OK for the mother (my body, my choice!) to abort based on gender or sexual orientation of the fetus?

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
    @Arclight

    I believe the answer you get to that question is "Reeeeeeeeeee!".

    , @wow
    @Arclight

    In India they already abort females en masse...abortion is an industry in India to avoid paying the dowry when daughters marry. It's getting better....apparently.

    , @Anonymous
    @Arclight

    You don't have to ask permission from those mongrel freaks. Abort at will.

    , @Russell Upvittles
    @Arclight

    Good point. Yes, the feminists are always uncharacteristically quiet when it comes to topics that force them to visit the crazy aunt in the attic of their ideology; things like industrial-scale gender-selected abortion in Asia, or how women are treated under Sharia Law.

    Philip K. Dick wrote a short story about a dystopian not-too-distance future in which mothers had the option of terminating their children up to the age of 13.

    Replies: @Olorin

    , @Jackmaninov
    @Arclight

    I see the guys who clean exploded heads off the street have hired a lobbyist.

    , @Peripatetic Commenter
    @Arclight

    Well, any sane society will have exceptions, and we will tell you what they are once we figure out what pisses us off most!

    , @e
    @Arclight

    That would be a great question for the "journalists" of tonight's debate to ask the participants. Odds of it happening? Zero.

    Replies: @Arclight

    , @Corn
    @Arclight

    Someone correct me if I’m wrong but haven’t one or two red states either passed or proposed sex-selective abortion bans? I believe feminists flew into a tizzy over them as much as they do any abortion restriction.

    Sex selective abortion is mostly a south, maybe east Asian thing. Most “people of color” in the US are black or brown. So far feminists seem to view sex selective abortion as just some thing pro-lifers blather about as an excuse to restrict abortion.

  14. Martina Navratilova gets re-educated.

    Martina is very supportive of the inclusion of trans women in amateur sports, but she is concerned about the possible physical advantages that trans women may have over female athletes in competitions.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00069nr

    • Replies: @Barnard
    @Sue D. Nim

    I am not going to watch this, but will admit to being curious what Martina's testosterone levels read at when she had them tested. Granted, she probably hasn't been doping since she retired from doubles in 2006. Are there any long term effects that would show up in the test?

  15. When I was young, it was fashionable to explain male homosexuality by genetics. Then it became unpopular – and now it is on the rise again, above all in LGBTQ circles.

    My objection: Every little boy is excited by being around a strapping young male. Only the more masculine boys try to imitate him – and the less masculine boys fail to imitate them and content themselves with using him as masturbation fantasies. And there is nothing more reinforcing (in the sense of classical behaviourism) than an orgasm.

    So the genetical difference is about masculinity/effeteness, whereas the rest (sexual orientation) can be explained merely by behaviourism.

    • Replies: @BB753
    @Stogumber

    "Every little boy is excited by being around a strapping young male"

    Speak for yourself! Are you gay?

    "Only the more masculine boys try to imitate him – and the less masculine boys fail to imitate them and content themselves with using him as masturbation fantasies."

    What about the boys in the middle?

    , @guest
    @Stogumber

    If you stretch the meaning of "excited," maybe. But not sexually excited, to be sure.

    , @Cloudbuster
    @Stogumber

    My objection: Every little boy is excited by being around a strapping young male. Only the more masculine boys try to imitate him – and the less masculine boys fail to imitate them and content themselves with using him as masturbation fantasies. And there is nothing more reinforcing (in the sense of classical behaviourism) than an orgasm.

    You're projecting.

    , @LondonBob
    @Stogumber

    Neither of the two Michael Jackson victims were gay, they are both married with children. I would say they were hard wired to heterosexuality despite the sexual enjoyment they say they received from Jackson as children. I am really not aware of anyone being cured of homosexuality nor am I aware of homos saying they chose to be gay.

    Replies: @Bill Jones

  16. Homosexuality is the result of nutritional deficiencies on the part of the parents during conception and gestation… and of course mostly the mother.

    Dr Pottenger induced homosexuality in the offspring of poorly fed cats.

    Have we seen a rise in homosexuality in “decadent eras”? That may not be entirely a moral phenomenon but also a typical degradation of diet of those eras, leading to nutritional degeneration.

    https://www.scribd.com/document/60700924/Pottenger-Cat-Study

    Also see the magnum opus of Dr. Price:

    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/544354.Nutrition_and_Physical_Degeneration

    • Replies: @Ghost of Bull Moose
    @DaKine

    Soy milk.

  17. Male homosexuality is caused by an unknown in utero virus or a virus picked up during male adolescence. When we discover the virus, we can vaccinate against it like smallpox. That is the real threat to gayness.

    • Disagree: Dave from Oz
    • Replies: @Dave from Oz
    @wow


    Male homosexuality is caused by an unknown in utero virus or a virus picked up during male adolescence.
     
    I was noticing tits even before adolescence, I have been straight all my life. Many gay men report feeling gay from early boyhood. Hopefully, this is just trolling because it is flat-out wrong.

    Replies: @Peripatetic Commenter, @Days of Broken Arrows, @danand, @TWS

  18. @Arclight
    Semi-related, but has anyone asked the left lately on whether once abortion is legal at any stage of pregnancy if it's OK for the mother (my body, my choice!) to abort based on gender or sexual orientation of the fetus?

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @wow, @Anonymous, @Russell Upvittles, @Jackmaninov, @Peripatetic Commenter, @e, @Corn

    I believe the answer you get to that question is “Reeeeeeeeeee!”.

  19. @Arclight
    Semi-related, but has anyone asked the left lately on whether once abortion is legal at any stage of pregnancy if it's OK for the mother (my body, my choice!) to abort based on gender or sexual orientation of the fetus?

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @wow, @Anonymous, @Russell Upvittles, @Jackmaninov, @Peripatetic Commenter, @e, @Corn

    In India they already abort females en masse…abortion is an industry in India to avoid paying the dowry when daughters marry. It’s getting better….apparently.

  20. Queens new DA is a Soros stooge who won’t prosecute crimes.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/ScottMGreer/status/1143721735587598336

    • Replies: @Daniel H
    @Jack Hanson

    >>Queens new DA is a Soros stooge who won’t prosecute crimes.

    Better her than the white, ethnic hacks. Another upstart Puerto Rican throws out a tired, old, white ethnic hack in New York City. Good.

    This wasn't supposed to happen. NYC politics were supposed to be safe for hacks like Crowley and Katz forever. After all, they are not just part of the grand coalition, they are its natural leaders. The coloreds were supposed to know their place and role. That place and role was to keep their damned mouths shut, vote Democrat/hack and mouth the correct rhetoric on white man=bad.

    You do know the way forward? It will start slowly, but hacks like Crowley and Katz will eventually migrate to the Republican party. The hacks will swallow their pride and mouth a justification that the Republicans have grown and matured and are no longer hateful, sexist, Christian white supremacists. And eventually, they will transform the Republican party into their own image. And the Cucks will go right along with this, because being Cucks, they have no principle, no backbone and will do anything to be accepted and liked.

    Replies: @Daniel H

    , @Jim Don Bob
    @Jack Hanson

    The SJWs elected one here in the Peoples' Republic.

    The babe who won is a public defender backed by Soros. She cited a case of "police brutality" where a cop shot a guy -after- the guy took an iron bar to the cop's face which required 60+ stitches.

    https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/politics/elections/incumbent-top-prosecutors-fall-in-virginia-primary-amid-calls-for-criminal-justice-reform/65-c7a81328-cb45-4dad-89c8-3397f633473f

    , @Corn
    @Jack Hanson

    This new trend of blue metropolises electing DAs who choose to serve as Chief Public Defenders is quite disturbing.

    And this time I doubt there’s enough white voters left to elect a Giuliani to the rescue.

  21. anonymous[751] • Disclaimer says:

    Twin concordance for alcoholism is more like 50% as an example

  22. OT: could the rituals of orthodox judaism effectively attune individuals’ immune systems to the group as a whole, to strengthen them collectively? might they similarly seek approaches that undermine other groups’ immune systems? eg western literature has been a source of strength and security, now being undermined…

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    @robot

    OT: could the rituals of orthodox judaism effectively attune individuals’ immune systems to the group as a whole, to strengthen them collectively? might they similarly seek approaches that undermine other groups’ immune systems?

    No.

  23. Anonymous [AKA "Spirit of the bayonet"] says:

    The articles author actually suggests that gays indirectly contribute to reproduction by helping raise the children of straight family members.

    Guy is really reaching to explain some sort of benefit that homosexuality may lend to humanity. Being a genetic dead end must create a lot of existential angst.

    • Replies: @Michael S
    @Anonymous

    Group selection is pretty much rejected by evo scientists anyway. There's no evidence that it exists, no formal mechanism by which it can be explained to operate, and generally no way for a local fitness-obliterator to provide enough of a nonlocal advantage to be selected for.

    GWAS will probably support the current scientific hypothesis, which is that homosexuality is related to the same group of alleles that are responsible for promiscuity, peacocking and male "prettiness", which are normally an advantage without the homosexuality, but degenerate into homosexuality with certain environmental triggers.

    Twin studies are good at finding very strongly heritable traits, but if homosexuality itself is not a heritable trait, but rather the expression of a heritable trait in some specific environment, then twin studies will only find weak associations. But what GWAS will hopefully tell us is that nearly all homosexuals share certain alleles, which exist but at a much lower frequency in the heterosexual population (like say 90% for homos, 50% for heteros).

    Time will tell, but if the above is what we see, then it will not only explain the actual apparent recent rise in homosexuality, but indicate that it is a potentially preventable and/or treatable condition.

  24. Researchers may soon isolate the genetic roots of h̶o̶m̶o̶s̶e̶x̶u̶a̶l̶i̶t̶y spina bifida. As a scientist, that excites me. But as a g̶a̶y̶ ̶m̶a̶n̶ man with spina bifida, I worry about what might happen next.

    • Replies: @Grace Jones
    @Dr. X

    "Spina bifida is best prevented by taking 400 micrograms (mcg) of folic acid every day. Studies have shown that if all women who could become pregnant were to take a multivitamin with the B-vitamin folic acid, the risk of neural tube defects could be reduced by up to 70%."

  25. Anonymous[337] • Disclaimer says:
    @Arclight
    Semi-related, but has anyone asked the left lately on whether once abortion is legal at any stage of pregnancy if it's OK for the mother (my body, my choice!) to abort based on gender or sexual orientation of the fetus?

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @wow, @Anonymous, @Russell Upvittles, @Jackmaninov, @Peripatetic Commenter, @e, @Corn

    You don’t have to ask permission from those mongrel freaks. Abort at will.

  26. I think that level of concordance is for identical twins. It’s lower for fraternal twins.

    Jeffrey Satinover offered a hypothesis about 15 years ago that male homosexuality itself is not heritable, but that certain psychological traits are to a greater or lesser degree and that these are soil for homosexuality. He mentioned anxiety, intelligence, aestheticism, and one other.

    • Agree: Desiderius
    • Replies: @Anon
    @Art Deco

    Paglia concurs, which is good enough for me: settled science.

    , @res
    @Art Deco


    I think that level of concordance is for identical twins. It’s lower for fraternal twins.
     
    Correct. Here is Bailey's paper: http://faculty.wcas.northwestern.edu/JMichael-Bailey/Publications/Bailey%20et%20al.%20twins,2000.pdf
    Concordances are in Table 1. Sample sizes seem fairly small (0-14 positive concordance pairs) so not sure how seriously to take them.

    Jeffrey Satinover offered a hypothesis about 15 years ago that male homosexuality itself is not heritable, but that certain psychological traits are to a greater or lesser degree and that these are soil for homosexuality. He mentioned anxiety, intelligence, aestheticism, and one other.
     
    That sounds like weaseling (from Satinover, not you) to me. Let's look a little closer. From https://concernedwomen.org/images/content/bornorbred.pdf

    “This finding alone argues for the enormous importance of nongenetic factors influencing homosexuality,” writes Dr. Jeffrey Satinover, “because … in order for something to be genetically determined, as opposed to merely influenced, the genetic heritability would need to approach 100 percent.”36 Satinover, a psychiatrist, notes that “identical twins reared together share more significant environmental influences than nonidentical twins reared together,” and that narcissism, a key component of homosexuality, is more likely among identical twins who “grow up with mirror images of themselves.”37 (Italics in original.)
     
    I think anyone who invokes the "genetically determined" strawman is not to be taken very seriously.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    , @Lot
    @Art Deco

    I think this is part of it, but another large part is multicausal/rare random mutation as with schizophrenia.

    I don’t find Cochran’s germ theory convincing. We have exactly one example of a germ having complex behavioral effects in human beings, and its effects are subtle (e.g. slightly worse driving) and nothing as dramatic, complicated or consistent as completely inverting sexual desire.

    Homosexuality has two distinct parts: removing desire for one sex and creating it for another. Otherwise you’d have a asexual or bisexual.

    Replies: @Valentino, @Anon, @gcochran

  27. @Arclight
    Semi-related, but has anyone asked the left lately on whether once abortion is legal at any stage of pregnancy if it's OK for the mother (my body, my choice!) to abort based on gender or sexual orientation of the fetus?

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @wow, @Anonymous, @Russell Upvittles, @Jackmaninov, @Peripatetic Commenter, @e, @Corn

    Good point. Yes, the feminists are always uncharacteristically quiet when it comes to topics that force them to visit the crazy aunt in the attic of their ideology; things like industrial-scale gender-selected abortion in Asia, or how women are treated under Sharia Law.

    Philip K. Dick wrote a short story about a dystopian not-too-distance future in which mothers had the option of terminating their children up to the age of 13.

    • Replies: @Olorin
    @Russell Upvittles

    That wasn't a "dystopian not-too-distance [sic] future."

    That's every big-city ER, ICU, and EMT health care provider's/first responder's Another Day In Hell workday.

    I could tell you about the results of post-birth abortions--sometimes well past age 13--that would keep you from rest for the remainder of your life. Assuming you have a soul.

    I don't know how people get to the age of being able to write comments on the internet while being unaware of such things.


    The feminists are always uncharacteristically quiet when it comes to topics that force them to visit the crazy aunt in the attic of their ideology; things like industrial-scale gender-selected abortion in Asia, or how women are treated under Sharia Law.
     
    Dishonest. Or perhaps more accurately an engineered division-creating talking point.

    In the years where I knew feminists (large universities), most of them talked about this topic. The smarter ones came to "feminism" recognizing that late 19th/early 20th century immigration led for degenerate/unevolved cheap-labor/tractable-voting-base immigrant males being put in positions of power over founding stock American women of considerably better potential. This is why my very conservative paternal grandmother supported votes for women--so her family wouldn't be outvoted by low IQ turbobreeders.

    Granted, those men's granddaughters are attending "pussy marches" and "slut walks." My grandfathers' granddaughters most certainly are not.

    That's not something that today's fashionable misogynists comprehend. To them we have so much excellence we can afford to discard it if it appears in the form of our daughters.

    What I observed in talking to honest, intelligent Second Wave feminists was a sort of incipient, underlying, still very undeveloped sense of HBD...though some were very strong nativists and eugenicists. That was sometimes coupled with discussion that was way too general to get at any engineered-division-creating-talking-point-type specificities. But for you to claim a global "quiet" on this topic is a lie.

    But hey, you lot have been flogging the abortion nag for 35 years for electoral manipulation, so I doubt you're going to stop anytime soon.

  28. Is there a gene for a predilection for lavender or peach colored drapes?

    It’s always amused me (well, since I learned of it) that Texas requires a license for interior decorators, lest some poor soul suffer the senseless tragedy of mis-matched hues.

    Where is John Wayne when we need him?

  29. @Arclight
    Semi-related, but has anyone asked the left lately on whether once abortion is legal at any stage of pregnancy if it's OK for the mother (my body, my choice!) to abort based on gender or sexual orientation of the fetus?

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @wow, @Anonymous, @Russell Upvittles, @Jackmaninov, @Peripatetic Commenter, @e, @Corn

    I see the guys who clean exploded heads off the street have hired a lobbyist.

    • Agree: Ibound1
  30. Someone did a GWAS of age at first sexual intercourse.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5238953/

    AFAIK nobody has done one for divorce yet.

  31. Let the Mystery Be

  32. @Art Deco
    I think that level of concordance is for identical twins. It's lower for fraternal twins.

    Jeffrey Satinover offered a hypothesis about 15 years ago that male homosexuality itself is not heritable, but that certain psychological traits are to a greater or lesser degree and that these are soil for homosexuality. He mentioned anxiety, intelligence, aestheticism, and one other.

    Replies: @Anon, @res, @Lot

    Paglia concurs, which is good enough for me: settled science.

  33. This is unrelated, but for possible use for a future blog post. From the Washington Post: “A mother reported a teen bully for racially taunting her son. Then he beat her unconscious, police say.”

    It’s the third “most read” story today. The victim is Hispanic. You don’t find out until the 14th paragraph that “the 13-year-old suspect is African-American.”

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/06/26/mother-teen-bully-assault-mexico/?tid=pm_pop

    • Replies: @CCZ
    @Days of Broken Arrows

    Surprise, Surprise, number of news articles / outlets other than WaPo mentioning that the arrested attacker was "African American": ZERO (O)

    Attack happened in vibrant Passaic NJ.

    Hispanic 74.4%
    White alone 14.7%
    Black alone 8%
    Asian alone 3.1%

    https://www.nj.com/news/2019/06/lawyer-nj-mom-knocked-out-by-school-bully-is-filing-a-notice-to-sue-the-district-this-week.html

    Replies: @ATBOTL, @william munny, @Anon

    , @J.Ross
    @Days of Broken Arrows

    >you don't find out until
    You don't find out but you knew.
    See your mompuncher and raise you evolution in action.
    Aztec's lust blocked, so he shoots the rejecting party's baby. Literally alpha: "if my genes don't continue, nobody's will."


    But according to the Fresno Police Department, the weekend celebration turned tragic when a 23-year-old man couldn't take no for an answer and opened fire after a young woman rejected his advances. One of the bullets hit her 10-month-old daughter in the head, and the child has been hospitalized ever since.
     
    https://www.lmtonline.com/news/article/She-rejected-a-man-at-a-party-Then-he-shot-her-14044305.php
    , @Jus' Sayin'...
    @Days of Broken Arrows

    There's a lot going on in this story that the MSM is carefully going to ignore. As CZZ points out this is a minority-majority town, with Hispanics dominating demographically. Only WaPo reported the race of the Negro thug. But https://www.nj.com/news/2019/06/nj-mom-beaten-unconscious-by-school-bully-who-threatened-her-son-in-hate-crime-lawyer-says.html provides many illuminating other details.

    Now let's break the story down: A Hispanic kid in a public school, which is apparently for more academically gifted students (Passaic Gifted and Talented Academy School No. 20), is bullied by three student thugs, at least one of whom is Negro. (I suspect they all are. They tend to run and attack in packs.)

    The bullied Hispanic student obtains no satisfaction from school authorities, who sequestered HIM for the day and failed to report the bullying to anyone. (I'd bet money the school authorities are Negroes.)

    He tells his mother who confronts school officials (probably Negro). When the mother confronts them, their response is that the Negro bully and his (more than likely Negro) accomplices “had just as much right to an education as her [Hispanic] son”.

    The Negro bully then viciously assaults the Hispanic mother, presumably after learning somehow from (probably Negro) school staff, that both her son and she have complained.

    At this point the boy’s Hispanic father, Alfonso Vasquez, contacts the Hispanic Mayor of Passaic, Hector Lora, and the Negro bully is finally suspended.

    There's a lot of interesting data there on how vibrant diversity works in practice.

    I'd also be willing to hazard money that the test scores and academic performance of the Negro thug and his pack mates were more than likely sub-par verging on retarded.

    This is the USA's vibrant future in microcosm.

    Replies: @Hibernian

    , @anon
    @Days of Broken Arrows

    Combustion of the Fringes.

    , @Zedrick
    @Days of Broken Arrows

    "Passaic Gifted and Talented Academy School No. 20"

    If it's #2o, I don't know how gifted & talented the students would be.
    I thinks this is a case of making the little tykes feel good about themselves.
    Even if most are too dumb to know how dumb they actually are.

  34. As one of the guys who hypothesized a sexually transmitted pathogen as a contributing factor back even before Gregory Cochran did, I would be most interested in the intersection between immune-related genes and those identified in this study. Also, there is strong evidence from primate studies that hormones can be altered by social interactions. In the modern era we have relentless “social interactions” from an authoritative member of the family otherwise known as a “TV screen”. He tells the rest of the family that fathers are imbeciles, among other blasphemies against the environment of evolutionary adaptedness (that certainly varied between human populations) — with no possibility of the father of the family doing anything about it since the family is addicted to the “authority” in their family.

    • Replies: @Lot
    @James Bowery

    “I would be most interested in the intersection between immune-related genes and those identified in this study”

    I think an amateur could do this by looking where the various genes are located and seeing what else those areas code for. The IQ GWAS studies usually have a section “and the genes we identified are mostly associated with regions that code for the brain” or sometimes even more specific.

    Googling the name provided of particular genes you read about in studies can have interesting results.

  35. @Arclight
    Semi-related, but has anyone asked the left lately on whether once abortion is legal at any stage of pregnancy if it's OK for the mother (my body, my choice!) to abort based on gender or sexual orientation of the fetus?

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @wow, @Anonymous, @Russell Upvittles, @Jackmaninov, @Peripatetic Commenter, @e, @Corn

    Well, any sane society will have exceptions, and we will tell you what they are once we figure out what pisses us off most!

  36. jon says:

    J. Michael Bailey’s study of Australian twins in the 1990s found about 20-25% concordance, which is both higher than random chance but not really all that high either.

    I always found it interesting how the left, who pride themselves on being the “pro-science” side of politics, simultaneously try to promote that homosexuality is 100% nature and intelligence is 100% nurture. Of course, everything is some extent nature AND some extent nurture. Even more ridiculous in these cases, though, is the fact that all evidence suggests that homosexuality is more nurture than nature, and intelligence is more nature than nurture. So there overstatements of cause aren’t even in the right direction.

  37. @Arclight
    Semi-related, but has anyone asked the left lately on whether once abortion is legal at any stage of pregnancy if it's OK for the mother (my body, my choice!) to abort based on gender or sexual orientation of the fetus?

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @wow, @Anonymous, @Russell Upvittles, @Jackmaninov, @Peripatetic Commenter, @e, @Corn

    That would be a great question for the “journalists” of tonight’s debate to ask the participants. Odds of it happening? Zero.

    • Replies: @Arclight
    @e

    Totally - also, this is the one area where there is a 'disparate impact' and the left doesn't give a damn.

  38. “Linguist professors Henry Rogers and Ron Smyth attempted to find out why some gay men “sound” gay in their 2002 study, Searching for Phonetic Correlates of Gay- and Straight-Sounding Voices. The researchers asked people to listen to the recordings of 25 men of mixed sexual orientation and try to guess which sexuality the speakers identified as. Results showed that in 63 percent of the cases, the listeners correctly identified the sexual orientation of the speakers.”

    Could the genetic predisposition for a Lisp be associated?

    • Replies: @Prof. Woland
    @danand

    AI combined with facial recognition will be another factor in sorting the who from whom. And it is only going to get better.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-41188560

    , @anonymous
    @danand

    I really don't think it's taught/learned.

    Some may later affect it (I kind of doubt it but whatever--maybe some do) but it certainly shows up in childhood. david sedaris eg wrote about getting speech therapy as a young child for his gay lisp.

  39. res says:

    Technology Review’s take: https://www.technologyreview.com/s/611946/genes-linked-to-being-gay-may-help-straight-people-get-more-sex/

    Here is the presentation program (has anyone seen the paper itself?): http://programme.exordo.com/bga18/delegates/presentation/16/

    Abstract:

    Homosexual behavior in humans is genetically influenced (Långström et al. 2010), yet solid evidence about the genetic determinants of sexual orientation is lacking. In this study, we report current results from the largest genetic study of sexual orientation to date by focusing on two main phenotypes: non-heterosexual behavior (NHB), defined as having had at least one same-sex partner (N=28,486 cases and 469,427 controls) and number of sexual partners (NSP) in heterosexual individuals (N=362,993). Data in this study are meta-analyzed and come from the UK Biobank and 23andMe. We identify four and 41 loci significantly (P < 5×10-8) associated with NHB and NSP, respectively. Interestingly, twelve loci were sex-differentiated, and the genetic correlation between males and females was significantly less than one (rg = 0.67, P = 4×10-14 for NHB). By studying the association between significant loci and more than 2,500 GWAS results we highlight pleiotropic effects with smoking behavior and hormone-related phenotypes like balding. Genetic correlations indicate a shared genetic component between NHB and risk-taking (P = 5.1×10-9) and substance use (e.g., cannabis use, P = 3.6×10-6). Using polygenic scoring analyses, we replicate our results in an external study of adolescents, the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent to Adult Health (Add Health), and in an external sample of homosexual and heterosexual men, the Molecular Genetic Study of Sexual Orientation (MGSOSO). Overall, our results provide the first well-powered genetic insights into this complex, heritable behavioral phenotype.

    Note that only four loci were found for NHB. The other 41 were for NSP. It is interesting that with only four loci found they still found a “shared genetic component between NHB and risk-taking (P = 5.1×10-9) and substance use (e.g., cannabis use, P = 3.6×10-6).”

    P.S. Here is a paper which also looked at NSP:
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/261081v2
    They found 118 lead SNPs (compare 41). A Manhattan plot of these is in Extended Data Figure 3.1e
    James Thompson wrote about this paper last year: https://www.unz.com/jthompson/risky-subjects/

    • Replies: @Lot
    @res

    “Note that only four loci were found for NHB.”

    Four genes linked to homosexuality with offsetting benefits large enough to be common enough to identify.

    The rest, random mutations without such benefits, or else with benefits that are not offsetting.

  40. Yoder is a common Amish name. This guy puts the Men– in Mennonite.

    • Replies: @fish
    @Reg Cæsar


    Yoder is a common Amish name. This guy puts the Men– in Mennonite.
     
    Rons' LOL button is broken!

    So…..LOL!
    , @Redneck farmer
    @Reg Cæsar

    There are probably a s***load of Amish laughing at that, Reg.

  41. It will be interesting what other traits male homosexuality’s gene patterns will be similar to.

    Gays seem to be better-looking on average than straight men, and maybe even a bit smarter. The opposite is probably true for lesbians vs. straight women.

    • Replies: @Days of Broken Arrows
    @caffeine withdrawals

    "Gays seem to be better-looking on average than straight men, and maybe even a bit smarter."

    This alone presents a great reason not to "vaccinate the gay away." Doing so would mean that much more competition for straight men. If the gay guys I knew in college had liked girls, a lot of straight guys wouldn't have done nearly as well.

    I have a very specific college memory of this V-shaped, tanned, buffed Adonis on campus who all the girls swooned over. When my friends and I found out he was gay (and dating a punk rock friend of ours, no less) we practically threw a party in celebration. The anti-gay crew really need to think of the ramifications of what life would be like if gay guys became straight.

    , @Lot
    @caffeine withdrawals

    “Gays seem to be better-looking on average than straight men, and maybe even a bit smarter.”

    One write-up said those with the gay gene are better looking. I highly doubt the effect, if real, is large enough to identify anecdotally.

    “and maybe even a bit smarter.”

    The great geniuses to come out of Italy seem to have been heavily gay. I can’t think of even one of the top British or French minds who were gay other than Bacon.

    Arthur Hu speculated there was a gay male IQ advantage based on higher college degree rate. Far from conclusive however as gays I believe avoid a lot of jobs that pay well and don’t require college.

    The Harvard Crimson freshman surveys (going back 20 years) report a lot of gays there compared with the gen-pop. But again that could be non random selection of the students or the survey.

    Replies: @Flip, @nobodyofnowhere, @BB753, @Half Canadian, @Anonymous, @kaganovitch

  42. res says:
    @Art Deco
    I think that level of concordance is for identical twins. It's lower for fraternal twins.

    Jeffrey Satinover offered a hypothesis about 15 years ago that male homosexuality itself is not heritable, but that certain psychological traits are to a greater or lesser degree and that these are soil for homosexuality. He mentioned anxiety, intelligence, aestheticism, and one other.

    Replies: @Anon, @res, @Lot

    I think that level of concordance is for identical twins. It’s lower for fraternal twins.

    Correct. Here is Bailey’s paper: http://faculty.wcas.northwestern.edu/JMichael-Bailey/Publications/Bailey%20et%20al.%20twins,2000.pdf
    Concordances are in Table 1. Sample sizes seem fairly small (0-14 positive concordance pairs) so not sure how seriously to take them.

    Jeffrey Satinover offered a hypothesis about 15 years ago that male homosexuality itself is not heritable, but that certain psychological traits are to a greater or lesser degree and that these are soil for homosexuality. He mentioned anxiety, intelligence, aestheticism, and one other.

    That sounds like weaseling (from Satinover, not you) to me. Let’s look a little closer. From https://concernedwomen.org/images/content/bornorbred.pdf

    “This finding alone argues for the enormous importance of nongenetic factors influencing homosexuality,” writes Dr. Jeffrey Satinover, “because … in order for something to be genetically determined, as opposed to merely influenced, the genetic heritability would need to approach 100 percent.”36 Satinover, a psychiatrist, notes that “identical twins reared together share more significant environmental influences than nonidentical twins reared together,” and that narcissism, a key component of homosexuality, is more likely among identical twins who “grow up with mirror images of themselves.”37 (Italics in original.)

    I think anyone who invokes the “genetically determined” strawman is not to be taken very seriously.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @res

    I think anyone who invokes the “genetically determined” strawman is not to be taken very seriously.

    Because reasons. Been an education.

    Replies: @res

  43. e says:

    If memory serves, a Turkish psychiatrist’s interest was piqued when he noticed in his practice a correlation between gay children and mothers who had thyroid disorders so he researched a bit more and produced a couple of studies:

    1) “High Rates of Same-Sex Attraction/Gender Nonconformity in the Offspring of Mothers with Thyroid Dysfunction During Pregnancy: Proposal of Prenatal Thyroid Model ”

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4620281/

    2) “Towards a further understanding of prenatal thyroid theory of homosexuality: Autoimmune thyroiditis, polycystic ovary syndrome, autism and low birth weight”

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5661141/

    I remembered that Sanders’ team at Northwestern also found a possible correlation between a gene known for thyroid function AND so did 23 and Me’s first collection of data from gay folks (the results of which I can’t seem to find right now.)

    Sanders: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29217827 (“On chromosome 14, TSHR genetic variants in intron 1 could conceivably help explain past findings relating familial atypical thyroid function and male homosexuality. Furthermore, skewed X chromosome inactivation has been found in the thyroid condition, Graves’ disease, as well as in mothers of homosexual men.”

    So, GWAStudies are not the gold standard but it wouldn’t really be surprising if the thyroid were involved in the cause of homosexuality so important (and as yet mysterious) it is to vital systems AND how susceptible it might be to attack by pathogens. Cochran’s “gay germ” theory and the thyroid?

    It’s also been noted by researchers that there IS evidence of homosexuality clustering in some families, although not in most. If there is a gene(s) linked to homosexuality in these unusual families and if researchers could isolate it, identify its function, then that might lead to understanding how homosexuality results in others w/out such a gene.

    For instance, as Cochran has explained, there IS a gene variation in a small % of folks that does result in narcolepsy but most people with narcolepsy do NOT have such a gene. Still, knowledge of that helped researchers understand that people with narcolepsy lack a sufficient production of hypocretin by a very few number of brain cells responsible for its production.

  44. You want a locus for homosexual behavior? Look into how many homosexuals were molested as a youth by another homosexual. Its damn near 1 as far as relevance goes.

  45. It will be interesting what other traits male homosexuality’s gene patterns will be similar to.

    High verbal intelligence and an affinity for pedigree dogs, no doubt.

  46. @res
    @Art Deco


    I think that level of concordance is for identical twins. It’s lower for fraternal twins.
     
    Correct. Here is Bailey's paper: http://faculty.wcas.northwestern.edu/JMichael-Bailey/Publications/Bailey%20et%20al.%20twins,2000.pdf
    Concordances are in Table 1. Sample sizes seem fairly small (0-14 positive concordance pairs) so not sure how seriously to take them.

    Jeffrey Satinover offered a hypothesis about 15 years ago that male homosexuality itself is not heritable, but that certain psychological traits are to a greater or lesser degree and that these are soil for homosexuality. He mentioned anxiety, intelligence, aestheticism, and one other.
     
    That sounds like weaseling (from Satinover, not you) to me. Let's look a little closer. From https://concernedwomen.org/images/content/bornorbred.pdf

    “This finding alone argues for the enormous importance of nongenetic factors influencing homosexuality,” writes Dr. Jeffrey Satinover, “because … in order for something to be genetically determined, as opposed to merely influenced, the genetic heritability would need to approach 100 percent.”36 Satinover, a psychiatrist, notes that “identical twins reared together share more significant environmental influences than nonidentical twins reared together,” and that narcissism, a key component of homosexuality, is more likely among identical twins who “grow up with mirror images of themselves.”37 (Italics in original.)
     
    I think anyone who invokes the "genetically determined" strawman is not to be taken very seriously.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    I think anyone who invokes the “genetically determined” strawman is not to be taken very seriously.

    Because reasons. Been an education.

    • Replies: @res
    @Art Deco

    Could you elaborate? IMHO a big part of life is finding heuristics that help determine who is worth listening to (especially in SJW infested topics like this). Another big part of life is being open to good counterarguments. Do you have anything that indicates Satinover has anything useful to say about heritability?

    I stand by my statement: I think anyone who invokes the “genetically determined” strawman is not to be taken very seriously.

    If you disagree in Satinover's case, please back it up.

  47. Lot says:
    @Art Deco
    I think that level of concordance is for identical twins. It's lower for fraternal twins.

    Jeffrey Satinover offered a hypothesis about 15 years ago that male homosexuality itself is not heritable, but that certain psychological traits are to a greater or lesser degree and that these are soil for homosexuality. He mentioned anxiety, intelligence, aestheticism, and one other.

    Replies: @Anon, @res, @Lot

    I think this is part of it, but another large part is multicausal/rare random mutation as with schizophrenia.

    I don’t find Cochran’s germ theory convincing. We have exactly one example of a germ having complex behavioral effects in human beings, and its effects are subtle (e.g. slightly worse driving) and nothing as dramatic, complicated or consistent as completely inverting sexual desire.

    Homosexuality has two distinct parts: removing desire for one sex and creating it for another. Otherwise you’d have a asexual or bisexual.

    • Replies: @Valentino
    @Lot


    Homosexuality has two distinct parts: removing desire for one sex and creating it for another. Otherwise you’d have a asexual or bisexual.
     
    Perhaps, homosexuality is a continuous phenomenon, not a discrete one. People that have more or stronger factors are inclined to be exclusive homosexuals, people that have fewer or weaker homosexual factors, are inclined to be bisexuals.

    Replies: @Stan Adams

    , @Anon
    @Lot


    I think this is part of it, but another large part is multicausal/rare random mutation as with schizophrenia.
     
    Schizophrenia is not caused by random mutations, but has been pinned down in GWAS studies. Plomin talks about it in his book, chapter 6, "Generalist Genes." Schizophrenia is in a cluster of mental ilnesses that are almost indistinguishable from each other at the genetic level, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, and major depression (which is a completely different condition than depression itself, which is clustered with anxiety disorders).

    Because genetics has an aroma of badthink in academia, and because psychologists are siloed away from biology research, this stuff has not filtered down into standard psychological knowledge and practice, but the research is quite solid.

    Replies: @gcochran

    , @gcochran
    @Lot

    tertiary syphilis affects your driving? Or was that rabies?

    Replies: @Lot

  48. @res
    Technology Review's take: https://www.technologyreview.com/s/611946/genes-linked-to-being-gay-may-help-straight-people-get-more-sex/

    Here is the presentation program (has anyone seen the paper itself?): http://programme.exordo.com/bga18/delegates/presentation/16/

    Abstract:

    Homosexual behavior in humans is genetically influenced (Långström et al. 2010), yet solid evidence about the genetic determinants of sexual orientation is lacking. In this study, we report current results from the largest genetic study of sexual orientation to date by focusing on two main phenotypes: non-heterosexual behavior (NHB), defined as having had at least one same-sex partner (N=28,486 cases and 469,427 controls) and number of sexual partners (NSP) in heterosexual individuals (N=362,993). Data in this study are meta-analyzed and come from the UK Biobank and 23andMe. We identify four and 41 loci significantly (P < 5x10-8) associated with NHB and NSP, respectively. Interestingly, twelve loci were sex-differentiated, and the genetic correlation between males and females was significantly less than one (rg = 0.67, P = 4x10-14 for NHB). By studying the association between significant loci and more than 2,500 GWAS results we highlight pleiotropic effects with smoking behavior and hormone-related phenotypes like balding. Genetic correlations indicate a shared genetic component between NHB and risk-taking (P = 5.1x10-9) and substance use (e.g., cannabis use, P = 3.6x10-6). Using polygenic scoring analyses, we replicate our results in an external study of adolescents, the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent to Adult Health (Add Health), and in an external sample of homosexual and heterosexual men, the Molecular Genetic Study of Sexual Orientation (MGSOSO). Overall, our results provide the first well-powered genetic insights into this complex, heritable behavioral phenotype.
     
    Note that only four loci were found for NHB. The other 41 were for NSP. It is interesting that with only four loci found they still found a "shared genetic component between NHB and risk-taking (P = 5.1x10-9) and substance use (e.g., cannabis use, P = 3.6x10-6)."

    P.S. Here is a paper which also looked at NSP:
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/261081v2
    They found 118 lead SNPs (compare 41). A Manhattan plot of these is in Extended Data Figure 3.1e
    James Thompson wrote about this paper last year: https://www.unz.com/jthompson/risky-subjects/

    Replies: @Lot

    “Note that only four loci were found for NHB.”

    Four genes linked to homosexuality with offsetting benefits large enough to be common enough to identify.

    The rest, random mutations without such benefits, or else with benefits that are not offsetting.

  49. I thought that innate homosexuality was caused by embryonic issues rather than genetic differences? Not an expert on this.

  50. @Reg Cæsar
    Yoder is a common Amish name. This guy puts the Men- in Mennonite.

    Replies: @fish, @Redneck farmer

    Yoder is a common Amish name. This guy puts the Men– in Mennonite.

    Rons’ LOL button is broken!

    So…..LOL!

  51. @caffeine withdrawals

    It will be interesting what other traits male homosexuality’s gene patterns will be similar to.
     
    Gays seem to be better-looking on average than straight men, and maybe even a bit smarter. The opposite is probably true for lesbians vs. straight women.

    Replies: @Days of Broken Arrows, @Lot

    “Gays seem to be better-looking on average than straight men, and maybe even a bit smarter.”

    This alone presents a great reason not to “vaccinate the gay away.” Doing so would mean that much more competition for straight men. If the gay guys I knew in college had liked girls, a lot of straight guys wouldn’t have done nearly as well.

    I have a very specific college memory of this V-shaped, tanned, buffed Adonis on campus who all the girls swooned over. When my friends and I found out he was gay (and dating a punk rock friend of ours, no less) we practically threw a party in celebration. The anti-gay crew really need to think of the ramifications of what life would be like if gay guys became straight.

  52. The idea of genetically transmitted male homosexuality seems a bit ridiculous on one level. I mean, a gene that takes away its bearer’s desire to procreate with the opposite sex should naturally be removed from the gene pool in short order. In terms of its natural selection effect, “gayness” is essentially equivalent to a fatal genetic disease.

    For the “gay gene” itself to have survival value it would therefore have to be like Tay-Sachs or Sickle Cell, where having just one copy confers some substantial benefit that outweighs the detrimental effect that occurs when two copies are present.

    • Replies: @Lot
    @Hypnotoad666

    The article isn’t about a gene that makes someone gay, but genes that makes someone slightly more likely to be so.

    Replies: @Hypnotoad666

    , @J.Ross
    @Hypnotoad666

    A disposition to sensuality and/or submission (either might be advantages in some situations), which is activated and made more and more aberrant by life experience (like childhood abuse), makes sense.
    But there is no gene for Morrissey.
    http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/9/3/1283529634767/Morrissey-001.jpg

  53. @Days of Broken Arrows
    This is unrelated, but for possible use for a future blog post. From the Washington Post: "A mother reported a teen bully for racially taunting her son. Then he beat her unconscious, police say."

    It's the third "most read" story today. The victim is Hispanic. You don't find out until the 14th paragraph that "the 13-year-old suspect is African-American."

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/06/26/mother-teen-bully-assault-mexico/?tid=pm_pop

    Replies: @CCZ, @J.Ross, @Jus' Sayin'..., @anon, @Zedrick

    Surprise, Surprise, number of news articles / outlets other than WaPo mentioning that the arrested attacker was “African American”: ZERO (O)

    Attack happened in vibrant Passaic NJ.

    Hispanic 74.4%
    White alone 14.7%
    Black alone 8%
    Asian alone 3.1%

    https://www.nj.com/news/2019/06/lawyer-nj-mom-knocked-out-by-school-bully-is-filing-a-notice-to-sue-the-district-this-week.html

    • Replies: @ATBOTL
    @CCZ

    The whites in Passaic are almost entirely Orthodox Jews, they live on the southern edge of town in an area with single family houses. Passaic is heavily Mexican as opposed to the Caribbean Hispanics who are the majority in the NYC area.

    , @william munny
    @CCZ

    And the vast majority of whites are Orthodox Jews.

    Passaic is a small rust belt city first settled by the Dutch. After a few decades of white flight, whites constitute a little more than 1% of the public school population. Hispanics > 90%.

    I know one of the last remaining white families. "Trash" would be a compliment.

    , @Anon
    @CCZ


    An attorney for the New Jersey mother beaten unconscious by a bully who told her son “Mexicans should go back behind the wall,” said he will file a notice to sue the Passaic school district this week.
     
    Pet peeve: Why is the kid himself not named in the civil suit? Sure, he's not going to be able to contribute anything to paying the judgment, and you want to sue the deep pockets. But the criminal justice system will not put a black kid in jail where he should be. So the tort system should be used to otherwise extract revenge. Make mom take out a second mortgage to pay a lawyer, if she has a house. Use the discovery process to find out about his past, and use that information to get him permanently expelled from the school district upon threat of suing school district officials over irresponsibly allowing him to attend school. Put the kid on a faster track school to prison pipeline.
  54. @Russell Upvittles
    @Arclight

    Good point. Yes, the feminists are always uncharacteristically quiet when it comes to topics that force them to visit the crazy aunt in the attic of their ideology; things like industrial-scale gender-selected abortion in Asia, or how women are treated under Sharia Law.

    Philip K. Dick wrote a short story about a dystopian not-too-distance future in which mothers had the option of terminating their children up to the age of 13.

    Replies: @Olorin

    That wasn’t a “dystopian not-too-distance [sic] future.”

    That’s every big-city ER, ICU, and EMT health care provider’s/first responder’s Another Day In Hell workday.

    I could tell you about the results of post-birth abortions–sometimes well past age 13–that would keep you from rest for the remainder of your life. Assuming you have a soul.

    I don’t know how people get to the age of being able to write comments on the internet while being unaware of such things.

    The feminists are always uncharacteristically quiet when it comes to topics that force them to visit the crazy aunt in the attic of their ideology; things like industrial-scale gender-selected abortion in Asia, or how women are treated under Sharia Law.

    Dishonest. Or perhaps more accurately an engineered division-creating talking point.

    In the years where I knew feminists (large universities), most of them talked about this topic. The smarter ones came to “feminism” recognizing that late 19th/early 20th century immigration led for degenerate/unevolved cheap-labor/tractable-voting-base immigrant males being put in positions of power over founding stock American women of considerably better potential. This is why my very conservative paternal grandmother supported votes for women–so her family wouldn’t be outvoted by low IQ turbobreeders.

    Granted, those men’s granddaughters are attending “pussy marches” and “slut walks.” My grandfathers’ granddaughters most certainly are not.

    That’s not something that today’s fashionable misogynists comprehend. To them we have so much excellence we can afford to discard it if it appears in the form of our daughters.

    What I observed in talking to honest, intelligent Second Wave feminists was a sort of incipient, underlying, still very undeveloped sense of HBD…though some were very strong nativists and eugenicists. That was sometimes coupled with discussion that was way too general to get at any engineered-division-creating-talking-point-type specificities. But for you to claim a global “quiet” on this topic is a lie.

    But hey, you lot have been flogging the abortion nag for 35 years for electoral manipulation, so I doubt you’re going to stop anytime soon.

  55. @e
    @Arclight

    That would be a great question for the "journalists" of tonight's debate to ask the participants. Odds of it happening? Zero.

    Replies: @Arclight

    Totally – also, this is the one area where there is a ‘disparate impact’ and the left doesn’t give a damn.

  56. Shermy [AKA "Questioneer"] says:

    I’ve come to notice that with quite a few lesbians I know personally, their dads were fucking assholes, expressed one way or another, with a military consistency. Not all, but at least 50%.

    All girls I’ve known with horrific dads are either sexually promiscuous, lesbians, or both.

  57. @Hypnotoad666
    The idea of genetically transmitted male homosexuality seems a bit ridiculous on one level. I mean, a gene that takes away its bearer's desire to procreate with the opposite sex should naturally be removed from the gene pool in short order. In terms of its natural selection effect, "gayness" is essentially equivalent to a fatal genetic disease.

    For the "gay gene" itself to have survival value it would therefore have to be like Tay-Sachs or Sickle Cell, where having just one copy confers some substantial benefit that outweighs the detrimental effect that occurs when two copies are present.

    Replies: @Lot, @J.Ross

    The article isn’t about a gene that makes someone gay, but genes that makes someone slightly more likely to be so.

    • Replies: @Hypnotoad666
    @Lot


    The article isn’t about a gene that makes someone gay, but genes that makes someone slightly more likely to be so.
     
    I think that's a distinction without a difference from a natural selection point of view. The extent to which a gene leads to homosexuality and non-reproduction is the extent to which it has negative survival value. So one still has to posit a reason that a gene that "makes someone slightly more likely to be [gay]" hasn't been removed from the pool over time.

    But until they actually figure out the biological mechanism(s) that determine sexual preference I suppose it's all just speculation, anyway.

    Replies: @Peripatetic Commenter

  58. @Tono Bungay
    Among proponents of the right to abortion, there are still many rather naive people who assume that women's "choice" is all that matters and beyond that the right to kill fetuses can never be misused. The virtual eradication of mongoloids, well, that doesn't disturb too many feminists because, let's face it, it is really convenient. The elimination of female fetuses in some Asian countries doesn't fit comfortably with the usual women's-rights rhetoric, but those countries are so far away. But the potential for in utero nullification of homosexual children-to-be? Maybe that might jar some of the wokiest people into a reconsideration of abortion.

    Replies: @Flip, @fish, @stillCARealist

    But the potential for in utero nullification of homosexual children-to-be? Maybe that might jar some of the wokiest people into a reconsideration of abortion.

    If you really want to do some major league trolling, start thanking the young women on the street asking for donations for Planned Parenthood for keeping the black population down.

  59. @Sue D. Nim
    Martina Navratilova gets re-educated.

    Martina is very supportive of the inclusion of trans women in amateur sports, but she is concerned about the possible physical advantages that trans women may have over female athletes in competitions.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00069nr

    Replies: @Barnard

    I am not going to watch this, but will admit to being curious what Martina’s testosterone levels read at when she had them tested. Granted, she probably hasn’t been doping since she retired from doubles in 2006. Are there any long term effects that would show up in the test?

  60. @Days of Broken Arrows
    This is unrelated, but for possible use for a future blog post. From the Washington Post: "A mother reported a teen bully for racially taunting her son. Then he beat her unconscious, police say."

    It's the third "most read" story today. The victim is Hispanic. You don't find out until the 14th paragraph that "the 13-year-old suspect is African-American."

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/06/26/mother-teen-bully-assault-mexico/?tid=pm_pop

    Replies: @CCZ, @J.Ross, @Jus' Sayin'..., @anon, @Zedrick

    >you don’t find out until
    You don’t find out but you knew.
    See your mompuncher and raise you evolution in action.
    Aztec’s lust blocked, so he shoots the rejecting party’s baby. Literally alpha: “if my genes don’t continue, nobody’s will.”

    But according to the Fresno Police Department, the weekend celebration turned tragic when a 23-year-old man couldn’t take no for an answer and opened fire after a young woman rejected his advances. One of the bullets hit her 10-month-old daughter in the head, and the child has been hospitalized ever since.

    https://www.lmtonline.com/news/article/She-rejected-a-man-at-a-party-Then-he-shot-her-14044305.php

  61. Lot says:
    @James Bowery
    As one of the guys who hypothesized a sexually transmitted pathogen as a contributing factor back even before Gregory Cochran did, I would be most interested in the intersection between immune-related genes and those identified in this study. Also, there is strong evidence from primate studies that hormones can be altered by social interactions. In the modern era we have relentless "social interactions" from an authoritative member of the family otherwise known as a "TV screen". He tells the rest of the family that fathers are imbeciles, among other blasphemies against the environment of evolutionary adaptedness (that certainly varied between human populations) -- with no possibility of the father of the family doing anything about it since the family is addicted to the "authority" in their family.

    Replies: @Lot

    “I would be most interested in the intersection between immune-related genes and those identified in this study”

    I think an amateur could do this by looking where the various genes are located and seeing what else those areas code for. The IQ GWAS studies usually have a section “and the genes we identified are mostly associated with regions that code for the brain” or sometimes even more specific.

    Googling the name provided of particular genes you read about in studies can have interesting results.

  62. @Hypnotoad666
    The idea of genetically transmitted male homosexuality seems a bit ridiculous on one level. I mean, a gene that takes away its bearer's desire to procreate with the opposite sex should naturally be removed from the gene pool in short order. In terms of its natural selection effect, "gayness" is essentially equivalent to a fatal genetic disease.

    For the "gay gene" itself to have survival value it would therefore have to be like Tay-Sachs or Sickle Cell, where having just one copy confers some substantial benefit that outweighs the detrimental effect that occurs when two copies are present.

    Replies: @Lot, @J.Ross

    A disposition to sensuality and/or submission (either might be advantages in some situations), which is activated and made more and more aberrant by life experience (like childhood abuse), makes sense.
    But there is no gene for Morrissey.

  63. @CCZ
    @Days of Broken Arrows

    Surprise, Surprise, number of news articles / outlets other than WaPo mentioning that the arrested attacker was "African American": ZERO (O)

    Attack happened in vibrant Passaic NJ.

    Hispanic 74.4%
    White alone 14.7%
    Black alone 8%
    Asian alone 3.1%

    https://www.nj.com/news/2019/06/lawyer-nj-mom-knocked-out-by-school-bully-is-filing-a-notice-to-sue-the-district-this-week.html

    Replies: @ATBOTL, @william munny, @Anon

    The whites in Passaic are almost entirely Orthodox Jews, they live on the southern edge of town in an area with single family houses. Passaic is heavily Mexican as opposed to the Caribbean Hispanics who are the majority in the NYC area.

  64. res says:
    @Art Deco
    @res

    I think anyone who invokes the “genetically determined” strawman is not to be taken very seriously.

    Because reasons. Been an education.

    Replies: @res

    Could you elaborate? IMHO a big part of life is finding heuristics that help determine who is worth listening to (especially in SJW infested topics like this). Another big part of life is being open to good counterarguments. Do you have anything that indicates Satinover has anything useful to say about heritability?

    I stand by my statement: I think anyone who invokes the “genetically determined” strawman is not to be taken very seriously.

    If you disagree in Satinover’s case, please back it up.

  65. Lot says:
    @caffeine withdrawals

    It will be interesting what other traits male homosexuality’s gene patterns will be similar to.
     
    Gays seem to be better-looking on average than straight men, and maybe even a bit smarter. The opposite is probably true for lesbians vs. straight women.

    Replies: @Days of Broken Arrows, @Lot

    “Gays seem to be better-looking on average than straight men, and maybe even a bit smarter.”

    One write-up said those with the gay gene are better looking. I highly doubt the effect, if real, is large enough to identify anecdotally.

    “and maybe even a bit smarter.”

    The great geniuses to come out of Italy seem to have been heavily gay. I can’t think of even one of the top British or French minds who were gay other than Bacon.

    Arthur Hu speculated there was a gay male IQ advantage based on higher college degree rate. Far from conclusive however as gays I believe avoid a lot of jobs that pay well and don’t require college.

    The Harvard Crimson freshman surveys (going back 20 years) report a lot of gays there compared with the gen-pop. But again that could be non random selection of the students or the survey.

    • Replies: @Flip
    @Lot


    The great geniuses to come out of Italy seem to have been heavily gay. I can’t think of even one of the top British or French minds who were gay other than Bacon.
     
    Keynes and Shakespeare?

    Replies: @Lot, @Reg Cæsar

    , @nobodyofnowhere
    @Lot

    Turing didn't come to mind?

    Replies: @Lot

    , @BB753
    @Lot

    Bacon the modern painter was gay. But surely Francis Bacon the great philosopher was not?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Bacon

    , @Half Canadian
    @Lot

    I've thought that being open-minded has an advantage to intellectual/artistic achievements, and this may be associated with being gay. After all, if you get over the disgust of having sex with someone of the same sex, I'm sure it feels pretty good. You just need to be open-minded enough to try it.

    Replies: @e

    , @Anonymous
    @Lot


    The great geniuses to come out of Italy seem to have been heavily gay. I can’t think of even one of the top British or French minds who were gay other than Bacon.

     

    Since the discussion is about homosexuality and genetics, Bacon is a good example of a homosexual which had homosexual close relatives. His brother Anthony was charged with sodomy in France, but the king of Navarre saved him of punishment (burn at the stake). And for Francis, there also had been the question of bringing him to trial for buggery. Bacon's fellow Member of Parliament Simonds D'Ewes wrote in his diaries:

    . . . the favour he had with the beloved Marquis of Buckingham emboldened him, as I learned in discourse from a gentleman of his bedchamber, who told me he was sure his lord should never fall as long as the said Marquis continued in favour. His most abominable and darling sinne I should rather burie in silence, than mencion it, were it not a most admirable instance, how men are enslaved by wickedness, & held captive by the devill. For wheeras presentlie upon his censure at this time his ambition was moderated, his pride humbled, and the meanes of his former injustice and corruption removed; yet would he not relinquish the practice of his most horrible & secret sinne of sodomie, keeping still one Godrick, a verie effeminate faced youth, to bee his catamite and bedfellow, although hee had discharged the most of his other household sevants: which was the moore to bee admired, because men generallie after his fall begann to discourse of that his unnaturall crime, which hee had practiced manie yeares, deserting the bedd of his Ladie, which hee accounted, as the Italians and the Turkes doe, a poore & meane pleasure in respect of the other; & it was thought by some, that hee should have been tried at the barre of justice for it, & have satisfied the law most severe against that horrible villanie with the price of his bloud; which caused some bold and forward man to write these verses following in a whole sheete of paper, & to cast it down in some part of Yorkehouse in the strand, wheere Viscount St. Alban yet lay:

    Within this sty a *hogg doth ly,
    That must be hang'd for Sodomy.
    (*alluding both to his sirname of Bacon, & to that swinish abominable sinne.)
    But hee never came to anye publicke triall for this crime; nor did ever, that I could heare, forbeare his old custome of making his servants his bedfellowes, soe to avoid the scandall was raised of him, though hee lived many yeares after his fall in his lodgings in Grayes Inne in Holbourne, in great want & penurie.
     
    But Francis brother-in-law Mervyn Tuchet, didn't have the same luck of the Bacon brothers. He was executed accused of sodomy with pages in 1631. So, it's not difficult to understand why there weren't many records of open homosexuality in pre-modern times. Gays could lose their lives in those times. Homosexuals needed to be extremely careful.
    , @kaganovitch
    @Lot

    Turing?

  66. @The Cruncher
    Believe it or not, there are many more explanations for homosexuality than just the 'gay germ'. Dutton has many that I hadn't heard before - unfortunately my memory is junk.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMEHy39ANAQ

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    I don’t have thirty minutes to hear this through. Does he get around to my pet theory– that in most cultures, queers have to marry and breed like everyone else? And they have more kids, because nothing gets you out of the hated sex act like pregnancy.

    • Replies: @Thea
    @Reg Cæsar

    Interesting theory, I like it.



    The whole modern homosexual lifestyle is very decadent and only possible when your basic material needs are more than met. Much like feminism, it is a luxury that brutish survival conditions don’t allow.

    , @Anonymous
    @Reg Cæsar

    Yes.

    I think that homophobia creates conditions that perversely lead to more homos being born.

    I think there is some genetic component to being a homo. So in those ultra-conservative Muslim cultures, all homos are pressured into pretending to be straight, getting a straight marriage, and having straight sex even though they would rather not do it.

    So places in the Middle East probably have more homos per capita than progressive Western culturess.

  67. Men have a slightly higher average IQs than women, however relative to brain weight, women have much higher IQs. Could a partial feminization of the larger male brain produce a “best of both worlds” situation that boosts IQ?

  68. Is there anything more progressive than seeing a homeless child and wanting him to die in pain?
    https://www.thecollegefix.com/black-suny-prof-seeing-poor-white-people-makes-me-happy/

    The other day I jogged up the subway stairs and saw the homeless white boy again. “Can you get me something to eat,” he barked out to the river of people passing by. “Someone stole all my ****!” Scabs covered his mouth. He was sunburnt and thin. I ignored him but thought “Baby, you stole all mine.” I glanced at his blanket, shopping cart and books. Who is he? Why is he here? Where are his people?

  69. OT: it appears the media has found another tear jerker photo to prove borders are racist or whatever. Is there nothing else in their playbook?

  70. @Lot
    @Hypnotoad666

    The article isn’t about a gene that makes someone gay, but genes that makes someone slightly more likely to be so.

    Replies: @Hypnotoad666

    The article isn’t about a gene that makes someone gay, but genes that makes someone slightly more likely to be so.

    I think that’s a distinction without a difference from a natural selection point of view. The extent to which a gene leads to homosexuality and non-reproduction is the extent to which it has negative survival value. So one still has to posit a reason that a gene that “makes someone slightly more likely to be [gay]” hasn’t been removed from the pool over time.

    But until they actually figure out the biological mechanism(s) that determine sexual preference I suppose it’s all just speculation, anyway.

    • Replies: @Peripatetic Commenter
    @Hypnotoad666

    I think that’s a distinction without a difference from a natural selection point of view. The extent to which a gene leads to homosexuality and non-reproduction is the extent to which it has negative survival value.

    Indeed. Compare with: https://infogalactic.com/info/Skoptsy

  71. @danand

    “Linguist professors Henry Rogers and Ron Smyth attempted to find out why some gay men “sound” gay in their 2002 study, Searching for Phonetic Correlates of Gay- and Straight-Sounding Voices. The researchers asked people to listen to the recordings of 25 men of mixed sexual orientation and try to guess which sexuality the speakers identified as. Results showed that in 63 percent of the cases, the listeners correctly identified the sexual orientation of the speakers.”

     

    Could the genetic predisposition for a Lisp be associated?

    Replies: @Prof. Woland, @anonymous

    AI combined with facial recognition will be another factor in sorting the who from whom. And it is only going to get better.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-41188560

  72. @Lot
    @Art Deco

    I think this is part of it, but another large part is multicausal/rare random mutation as with schizophrenia.

    I don’t find Cochran’s germ theory convincing. We have exactly one example of a germ having complex behavioral effects in human beings, and its effects are subtle (e.g. slightly worse driving) and nothing as dramatic, complicated or consistent as completely inverting sexual desire.

    Homosexuality has two distinct parts: removing desire for one sex and creating it for another. Otherwise you’d have a asexual or bisexual.

    Replies: @Valentino, @Anon, @gcochran

    Homosexuality has two distinct parts: removing desire for one sex and creating it for another. Otherwise you’d have a asexual or bisexual.

    Perhaps, homosexuality is a continuous phenomenon, not a discrete one. People that have more or stronger factors are inclined to be exclusive homosexuals, people that have fewer or weaker homosexual factors, are inclined to be bisexuals.

    • Replies: @Stan Adams
    @Valentino

    I'm a little reluctant to admit this, but that's never stopped me before.

    Without discussing anything that I have or have not done, or what label I attach to anything, I can tell you that I am very much attracted to a certain kind of man. The vast majority of men do nothing for me, but I have a definite "type."

    When I was in high school, there was a guy I knew who played on the football team. We never really talked one-on-one, but I saw him around all the time. He had a German last name - he wasn't Jewish - and the looks to match - tall, muscular, broad shoulders tapering down to a trim waist, blond hair, blue eyes, square jaw. He wasn't very smart - honestly, he was a stereotypical "dumb jock" - but he radiated confidence and cockiness and masculinity. The popular girls swarmed around him like moths drawn to a flame.

    His girlfriend was one of those high-maintenance blonde types. They used to fight a lot.

    (One time, while walking through the senior parking lot, I saw the two of them screaming at each other. He was yelling at her. I found myself wishing that they would break up then and there. "Whatever you did, bitch, you deserve it," I thought to myself.)

    My feelings toward him were ambivalent. I admired him, even idolized him. But I really hated him, because I was insanely jealous of his body and his face. But I realized even then that much of my hatred was due to the fact that he would never look at me the way he looked at his girlfriend.

    Judging by the way he talked about "fags," I surmised (probably correctly) that he would beat the shit out of me if he ever found out how I really felt about him. We were about the same height, and I weighed more than him, but I was fat and he was fit and he would have wiped the floor with me.

    We graduated. I attended a four-year university in the same area where I grew up. I still lived with my mother, so I ended up going to the same stores and restaurants that I had always patronized.

    About a year after my high-school graduation, I stopped at a popular local barbecue spot to pick up a phone order. I got out of the car and then - suddenly, shockingly - there he was, standing a few feet away from me, just chilling out. If anything, his physique was even more impressive than it had been during his playing days. I found myself staring at him until he shot me a wary glance - as if to say, "What are *you* looking at?" Then someone came out of the back entrance and asked him a question, and I realized that he was working there. He went back inside.

    I went inside to pick up my order, but I didn't see him again. The next few times I went to that place, I didn't see him.

    About a year after that, I went to another restaurant - a sports bar - for lunch. I sat down at my table, looked over the menu, and then glanced up at the waiter to see ... him. Standing not two feet away from me, asking me for my drink order.

    I'm rarely left speechless by anyone or anything, but I could barely manage to stammer out that I just wanted some water.

    By the time he came back, I had recovered enough to make a little light conversation.

    After ordering my burger, I said, "You're [that guy], aren't you? I remember you from high school."

    He smiled - he had a dazzling smile - and said, "Hey, yeah, I remember you! [Stan], right? How you doin'?"

    "Fine," I said. "I thought I saw you one day working at [the barbecue place]."

    "Yeah, I was a manager there for a while. But I make a lot more money as a server here. Especially on Friday and Saturday night."

    That was the general tone of our conversation. He had nothing terribly profound to say, but he was so good-looking and charismatic that I could have listened to him reading the phone book out loud. I had no doubt that many customers - especially women - left him very generous tips. (Certainly I did.)

    I got into the habit of eating at that place all the time, especially at lunch. (He wasn't the only reason - the weekday lunch special was a good deal.) I saw him a lot. We talked a few times. We didn't have all that much in common, but I always tried to find some excuse to start a conversation. A couple of times he sat in my booth while taking his break.

    In all of those conversations, I never so much as hinted that, if he had even the slightest interest in experimenting, I would have been willing in a nanosecond.

    The closest I ever came to revealing my true interest in him was when I asked him about his old girlfriend. He was sitting in my booth, absent-mindedly glancing at a female customer a few tables away.

    "She went away for college," he said. "We haven't talked since she left."

    "Are you seeing anyone else?" I asked.

    He flashed a slightly mischievous smile and said, "Nah, just playing the field. Know what I mean?"

    I've never been good at smiling on cue, but I gave him my very best effort. "Yeah, I know what you mean."

    The female customer got up and left. She passed by our booth on the way out. As soon as we were out of her field of sight, he turned his head around to take a long, lingering look at her ass. I made a somewhat self-conscious effort to look like I was checking her out, too.

    I found myself thinking about her ... and him, together. Wondering what he would do to her.

    He smirked at me. "You're thinking what I'm thinking," he said.

    I smirked, too, but not for the same reason. "You know I am," I said.

    This continued for about a year. Then, one day, I came in during one of his usual shifts, looked around, and didn't see him. Another waiter with whom I had conversed a few times walked up to my booth.

    "Is [the guy] off today?" I asked.

    The waiter looked as if I'd punched him in the gut.

    "You haven't heard?" he asked.

    "No," I said, feeling a sudden surge of panic. "Did he quit?"

    The waiter closed his eyes and took a deep breath. "I'm sorry to be the one who has to tell you. He's dead."

    I gasped, as if *I'd* just been sucker-punched. Part of me thought that it had to be a sick joke. Several seconds passed before I could take another breath.

    "What happened?" I asked at long last.

    "He and some buddies went to a hotel on Saturday night. Their room was on the fifteenth floor. They were all hanging out on the balcony. He'd had a few beers and was sitting on the railing. All of a sudden he just leaned back too far and fell off."

    "Holy s**t," I whispered.

    "He didn't say a word on the way down. He didn't scream, didn't yell - nothing. They said he died instantly as soon as he hit the ground."

    I'm a voracious eater, but I barely nibbled on my burger on that particular day.

    After all those years of my strange love/hate obsession with him, all those weird coincidences that seemed designed to keep me in his orbit, all those conversations laced with hidden meanings, suddenly he was gone forever.

    In short order, I found another place to eat. There were simply too many complicated memories attached to that particular restaurant. I've rarely been back since. (One time, I contracted food poisoning and barfed up my lunch in the parking lot.)

    There have been other guys who've caught my attention.

    About ten years ago, I had a co-worker who haunted my thoughts. He was from the Upper Midwest, but had a Latvian surname. (Yes, I looked it up.) He was very tall, not as muscular as I would have preferred (he was a bespectacled academic), and (worst of all) almost totally bald. But he had the most brilliant, piercing eyes - blue with swirls of grey. They brought to mind the chilly hue of the Arctic Sea.

    I rarely had a legitimate reason to interact with him, but I took advantage of every single conceivable opportunity to engage him in conversation. He was reserved, even a little shy, but polite. Eventually he left for another position elsewhere and I never saw him again.

    That's usually how it is - I see a guy, (maybe) find some reason to talk to him, (sometimes) get to know him a little, but never end up doing anything with him. Invariably these guys are tall - never shorter than 6'2", often 6'5" or above - being the most common - and well-built and Nordic-looking. I make a point of befriending as many of them as I can. But I can never find the nerve to tell them what I'm really thinking.

    My mother claims that my father was the same way. He was a jock in high school and college and was very active in amateur sports in his early adulthood. Even when my parents were married, my father spent most of his free time with his teammates.

    My mother says that there was one guy in particular who may or may not have been gay himself, but who knew that my father was mesmerized with him and thoroughly enjoyed being the dominant figure.

    "Your father followed this guy around like a lovesick puppy dog," she told me once. "He hung on his every word. He had him over for dinner and I had to sit there watching them flirt with each other across the table for two hours. He *never* looked at me like that. After a while he didn't even want to touch me."

    One time, when we were arguing, my mother shouted, "You're a fag, just like your father! You sure as hell didn't get it from me!"

    But then she softened her tone and added, "But at least you're not the girl, like he was."

    No, I'm not the girl - never the girl. That is one thing that I never have done and never will do.

  73. @Lot
    @caffeine withdrawals

    “Gays seem to be better-looking on average than straight men, and maybe even a bit smarter.”

    One write-up said those with the gay gene are better looking. I highly doubt the effect, if real, is large enough to identify anecdotally.

    “and maybe even a bit smarter.”

    The great geniuses to come out of Italy seem to have been heavily gay. I can’t think of even one of the top British or French minds who were gay other than Bacon.

    Arthur Hu speculated there was a gay male IQ advantage based on higher college degree rate. Far from conclusive however as gays I believe avoid a lot of jobs that pay well and don’t require college.

    The Harvard Crimson freshman surveys (going back 20 years) report a lot of gays there compared with the gen-pop. But again that could be non random selection of the students or the survey.

    Replies: @Flip, @nobodyofnowhere, @BB753, @Half Canadian, @Anonymous, @kaganovitch

    The great geniuses to come out of Italy seem to have been heavily gay. I can’t think of even one of the top British or French minds who were gay other than Bacon.

    Keynes and Shakespeare?

    • Replies: @Lot
    @Flip

    “Keynes and Shakespeare”

    They both married though. JMK was late in life and no kids so maybe should count. WS had a few kinda homo sonnets but I don’t think that by itself says too much.

    I was thinking before the modern era when I was referring to a lack of British gay intellectuals.

    Now that I think about it, lots of British gays in the Victorian and early 20th Century.

    That era produced so many great minds though it would be hard to estimate a gay percentage and it still may be quite low. Keynes is really the only modern British example of a absolute first class mind. And Lord Byron was a bisexual.

    Replies: @Jonathan Mason, @Anonymous

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Flip


    Keynes and Shakespeare?
     
    Stay away from Sobran on this subject.

    Joe was a "homophobe" who thought his hero was a poofter. AL Rowse was a poofter who swore the man was straight and virile. I'd go with Rowse.

    Those like Joseph Pearce who think the Bard was a recusant Catholic are on firmer footing. Even if wrong, they're not fools.

    Replies: @Precious

  74. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:

    Are there any homosexuals who themselves regard homosexuality as a disease or disability that impedes them from reproducing?

    There are Christian types who regard their homosexuality as demonic possession and the like, but I’ve never read about or encountered homosexuals who have a clinical take on homosexuality as a disease/disability.

    Most people with diseases or disabilities are aware of them. Someone born without legs or who catches leprosy is starkly aware of his condition and how it impacts his reproductive potential. Some like those with Alzheimer’s, or certain drug and alcohol addicts, are unaware or in denial of their afflictions. Perhaps these conditions along with homosexuality afflict similar parts of the brain.

  75. @Tono Bungay
    Among proponents of the right to abortion, there are still many rather naive people who assume that women's "choice" is all that matters and beyond that the right to kill fetuses can never be misused. The virtual eradication of mongoloids, well, that doesn't disturb too many feminists because, let's face it, it is really convenient. The elimination of female fetuses in some Asian countries doesn't fit comfortably with the usual women's-rights rhetoric, but those countries are so far away. But the potential for in utero nullification of homosexual children-to-be? Maybe that might jar some of the wokiest people into a reconsideration of abortion.

    Replies: @Flip, @fish, @stillCARealist

    Maybe that might jar some of the wokiest people into a reconsideration of abortion.

    Never. The last path for escape from potential responsibility will be defended unto death!

  76. @CCZ
    @Days of Broken Arrows

    Surprise, Surprise, number of news articles / outlets other than WaPo mentioning that the arrested attacker was "African American": ZERO (O)

    Attack happened in vibrant Passaic NJ.

    Hispanic 74.4%
    White alone 14.7%
    Black alone 8%
    Asian alone 3.1%

    https://www.nj.com/news/2019/06/lawyer-nj-mom-knocked-out-by-school-bully-is-filing-a-notice-to-sue-the-district-this-week.html

    Replies: @ATBOTL, @william munny, @Anon

    And the vast majority of whites are Orthodox Jews.

    Passaic is a small rust belt city first settled by the Dutch. After a few decades of white flight, whites constitute a little more than 1% of the public school population. Hispanics > 90%.

    I know one of the last remaining white families. “Trash” would be a compliment.

  77. @Jack Hanson
    Queens new DA is a Soros stooge who won't prosecute crimes.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/ScottMGreer/status/1143721735587598336

    Replies: @Daniel H, @Jim Don Bob, @Corn

    >>Queens new DA is a Soros stooge who won’t prosecute crimes.

    Better her than the white, ethnic hacks. Another upstart Puerto Rican throws out a tired, old, white ethnic hack in New York City. Good.

    This wasn’t supposed to happen. NYC politics were supposed to be safe for hacks like Crowley and Katz forever. After all, they are not just part of the grand coalition, they are its natural leaders. The coloreds were supposed to know their place and role. That place and role was to keep their damned mouths shut, vote Democrat/hack and mouth the correct rhetoric on white man=bad.

    You do know the way forward? It will start slowly, but hacks like Crowley and Katz will eventually migrate to the Republican party. The hacks will swallow their pride and mouth a justification that the Republicans have grown and matured and are no longer hateful, sexist, Christian white supremacists. And eventually, they will transform the Republican party into their own image. And the Cucks will go right along with this, because being Cucks, they have no principle, no backbone and will do anything to be accepted and liked.

    • Replies: @Daniel H
    @Daniel H

    Tiffany Caban, the presumptive Queens county, NYC, district attorney and her entourage celebrate her primary victory. All people of color except the old white dude on the left who is the GAY New York City council member Jimmy Van Bramer. He won't be around much longer. The Coalition really doesn't like gays, furthermore, he's white, representing a colored district.

    Who knew, maybe all these years it would have been relatively easy for the Coalition to seize power in NYC. All they had to do was try. Anyway, the times they are a changin' . Not a moment too soon. I have no dog in this fight.

    https://thenypost.files.wordpress.com/2019/06/caban-1289.jpg?quality=90&strip=all&w=1286

  78. Lot says:
    @Flip
    @Lot


    The great geniuses to come out of Italy seem to have been heavily gay. I can’t think of even one of the top British or French minds who were gay other than Bacon.
     
    Keynes and Shakespeare?

    Replies: @Lot, @Reg Cæsar

    “Keynes and Shakespeare”

    They both married though. JMK was late in life and no kids so maybe should count. WS had a few kinda homo sonnets but I don’t think that by itself says too much.

    I was thinking before the modern era when I was referring to a lack of British gay intellectuals.

    Now that I think about it, lots of British gays in the Victorian and early 20th Century.

    That era produced so many great minds though it would be hard to estimate a gay percentage and it still may be quite low. Keynes is really the only modern British example of a absolute first class mind. And Lord Byron was a bisexual.

    • Replies: @Jonathan Mason
    @Lot


    Now that I think about it, lots of British gays in the Victorian and early 20th Century.
     
    Due to boys of the upper classes being sent in large numbers to all-male boarding schools for the puberty years.

    In England it has also been noticed that sheep-shagging is more common among agricultural workers than bankers who specialize more in fleecing human victims.

    Replies: @J.Ross

    , @Anonymous
    @Lot

    G.H. Hardy, for a more modern example.

    Would you consider Kit Marlowe to be a top British mind?

    Neal Stephenson speculated about Isaac Newton's predilections, although without a shred of evidence.

    Replies: @Lot

  79. jb says:

    I think what is really needed is a unified theory of paraphilia. It isn’t enough to explain homosexuality — you also need to explain sadism and masochism. And podophilia. And pedophilia. And autopedophilia. Seriously, read the list! So are there genes for all of these? I rather doubt it! But all of those fetishes need explanation every bit as much as homosexuality, and my suspicion is that there is a single broad explanation that covers both homosexuality and other varieties of aberrant sexuality.

    What I think is that sexual orientation in humans is a bit fragile, because we have abandoned the ancient mammalian mechanism of pheromones. Male dogs go crazy when they smell female dogs in heat, and for most other mammals it works the same way, but it doesn’t work that way for humans. As far as I know it doesn’t work that way for gorillas or chimps either, but they lead simple lives, and they see lots of normal sexual activity all around them from the time they are very young, so when their own hormones kick in they have a pretty good idea of what it is they want to do about it.

    But for most human children sex is a mystery, and as a result they are vulnerable to having their sexuality derailed by random ideas or events that excite or intrigue them is some way. This might involve grooming from an adult homosexual, but it might also just be something startling that they see on TV or in the home or around the neighborhood. Something that gives them an exciting little shock that they’d like to feel again. So they dwell on it and start to fixate, and by the time the hormones kick in the die is cast. I’m sure genetics plays a role too. A naturally effeminate boy is likely to notice this and think about it and maybe come up with his own ideas about it. But you really do need an explanation for all the other paraphilias! My theory is that because human sexuality is not entirely hard coded, to some extent there must be some thought involved (even if it’s not remembered later on), and that the wide variety of human sexual abnormality is a direct consequence of the creativity of human imagination. Homosexuality happens to be the most common aberration simply because the male/female distinction is so universal and important, but the underlying mechanism is the same as for all the rest.

  80. @Days of Broken Arrows
    This is unrelated, but for possible use for a future blog post. From the Washington Post: "A mother reported a teen bully for racially taunting her son. Then he beat her unconscious, police say."

    It's the third "most read" story today. The victim is Hispanic. You don't find out until the 14th paragraph that "the 13-year-old suspect is African-American."

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/06/26/mother-teen-bully-assault-mexico/?tid=pm_pop

    Replies: @CCZ, @J.Ross, @Jus' Sayin'..., @anon, @Zedrick

    There’s a lot going on in this story that the MSM is carefully going to ignore. As CZZ points out this is a minority-majority town, with Hispanics dominating demographically. Only WaPo reported the race of the Negro thug. But https://www.nj.com/news/2019/06/nj-mom-beaten-unconscious-by-school-bully-who-threatened-her-son-in-hate-crime-lawyer-says.html provides many illuminating other details.

    Now let’s break the story down: A Hispanic kid in a public school, which is apparently for more academically gifted students (Passaic Gifted and Talented Academy School No. 20), is bullied by three student thugs, at least one of whom is Negro. (I suspect they all are. They tend to run and attack in packs.)

    The bullied Hispanic student obtains no satisfaction from school authorities, who sequestered HIM for the day and failed to report the bullying to anyone. (I’d bet money the school authorities are Negroes.)

    He tells his mother who confronts school officials (probably Negro). When the mother confronts them, their response is that the Negro bully and his (more than likely Negro) accomplices “had just as much right to an education as her [Hispanic] son”.

    The Negro bully then viciously assaults the Hispanic mother, presumably after learning somehow from (probably Negro) school staff, that both her son and she have complained.

    At this point the boy’s Hispanic father, Alfonso Vasquez, contacts the Hispanic Mayor of Passaic, Hector Lora, and the Negro bully is finally suspended.

    There’s a lot of interesting data there on how vibrant diversity works in practice.

    I’d also be willing to hazard money that the test scores and academic performance of the Negro thug and his pack mates were more than likely sub-par verging on retarded.

    This is the USA’s vibrant future in microcosm.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    @Jus' Sayin'...

    Historically Hispanic culture wasn't one where women took the lead in kicking ass and taking names. Shame on you, Alfonso Vasquez.

  81. @Daniel H
    @Jack Hanson

    >>Queens new DA is a Soros stooge who won’t prosecute crimes.

    Better her than the white, ethnic hacks. Another upstart Puerto Rican throws out a tired, old, white ethnic hack in New York City. Good.

    This wasn't supposed to happen. NYC politics were supposed to be safe for hacks like Crowley and Katz forever. After all, they are not just part of the grand coalition, they are its natural leaders. The coloreds were supposed to know their place and role. That place and role was to keep their damned mouths shut, vote Democrat/hack and mouth the correct rhetoric on white man=bad.

    You do know the way forward? It will start slowly, but hacks like Crowley and Katz will eventually migrate to the Republican party. The hacks will swallow their pride and mouth a justification that the Republicans have grown and matured and are no longer hateful, sexist, Christian white supremacists. And eventually, they will transform the Republican party into their own image. And the Cucks will go right along with this, because being Cucks, they have no principle, no backbone and will do anything to be accepted and liked.

    Replies: @Daniel H

    Tiffany Caban, the presumptive Queens county, NYC, district attorney and her entourage celebrate her primary victory. All people of color except the old white dude on the left who is the GAY New York City council member Jimmy Van Bramer. He won’t be around much longer. The Coalition really doesn’t like gays, furthermore, he’s white, representing a colored district.

    Who knew, maybe all these years it would have been relatively easy for the Coalition to seize power in NYC. All they had to do was try. Anyway, the times they are a changin’ . Not a moment too soon. I have no dog in this fight.

  82. @Tono Bungay
    Among proponents of the right to abortion, there are still many rather naive people who assume that women's "choice" is all that matters and beyond that the right to kill fetuses can never be misused. The virtual eradication of mongoloids, well, that doesn't disturb too many feminists because, let's face it, it is really convenient. The elimination of female fetuses in some Asian countries doesn't fit comfortably with the usual women's-rights rhetoric, but those countries are so far away. But the potential for in utero nullification of homosexual children-to-be? Maybe that might jar some of the wokiest people into a reconsideration of abortion.

    Replies: @Flip, @fish, @stillCARealist

    But homosexuals have so few children. Wouldn’t its genetic basis sort of die out over time? I mean, especially since it’s been normalized, the guys don’t even bother with sham marriages anymore. Their fertility should be getting even lower. The lesbians never seem to produce more than one kid, and that’s paired with a woman who has zero.

  83. @Reg Cæsar
    @The Cruncher

    I don't have thirty minutes to hear this through. Does he get around to my pet theory-- that in most cultures, queers have to marry and breed like everyone else? And they have more kids, because nothing gets you out of the hated sex act like pregnancy.

    Replies: @Thea, @Anonymous

    Interesting theory, I like it.

    The whole modern homosexual lifestyle is very decadent and only possible when your basic material needs are more than met. Much like feminism, it is a luxury that brutish survival conditions don’t allow.

  84. @Lot
    @caffeine withdrawals

    “Gays seem to be better-looking on average than straight men, and maybe even a bit smarter.”

    One write-up said those with the gay gene are better looking. I highly doubt the effect, if real, is large enough to identify anecdotally.

    “and maybe even a bit smarter.”

    The great geniuses to come out of Italy seem to have been heavily gay. I can’t think of even one of the top British or French minds who were gay other than Bacon.

    Arthur Hu speculated there was a gay male IQ advantage based on higher college degree rate. Far from conclusive however as gays I believe avoid a lot of jobs that pay well and don’t require college.

    The Harvard Crimson freshman surveys (going back 20 years) report a lot of gays there compared with the gen-pop. But again that could be non random selection of the students or the survey.

    Replies: @Flip, @nobodyofnowhere, @BB753, @Half Canadian, @Anonymous, @kaganovitch

    Turing didn’t come to mind?

    • Replies: @Lot
    @nobodyofnowhere

    Bright guy who did good work but whose importance has been exaggerated.

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob

  85. i’ve already posted several times here over the last 20 years that if scientists ever do figure out what’s going on, and then figure out how to stop it, homosexuals will scream that “You’re exterminating us!”

    it would be an interesting science fiction book or movie, about the last days of the gays. it could cover “The Conversioning”, the time period where all homo fetuses are converted into hetero fetuses in utero, and homosexual politicians and celebrity figures are trying to lead some kind of political revolt against this.

    it would be a lot like the year 2019, but in reverse. instead of the wild celebration of the homos now that they’re able to get to all our children, and try to turn normal children into transexuals, we’d observe the reverse. the prevalence and appearance of homos decreasing every 5 years. attendance at pride parades declining, then pride parades disappearing, city by city. the rainbow flag disappearing from public view year by year, like the confederate flag today.

    then 40 years later, as the last few remaining homos are old and dying, we could have a “Last of the Homohecans” type story, where the last homo watches his friends pass on, and then he’s all alone. anthropologists could document all the gay slang and etiquette he knows, for linguists and historians to study and write books about. chemists would forget how to make PrEP. doctors would forgot how to treat anti-biotic resistant VD, like they’ve forgotten how to treat TB.

    “We used to run for President. Now we’re all gone.”

  86. @Days of Broken Arrows
    This is unrelated, but for possible use for a future blog post. From the Washington Post: "A mother reported a teen bully for racially taunting her son. Then he beat her unconscious, police say."

    It's the third "most read" story today. The victim is Hispanic. You don't find out until the 14th paragraph that "the 13-year-old suspect is African-American."

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/06/26/mother-teen-bully-assault-mexico/?tid=pm_pop

    Replies: @CCZ, @J.Ross, @Jus' Sayin'..., @anon, @Zedrick

    Combustion of the Fringes.

  87. Pedophiles often claim that they became pedophiles by some mysterious process after themselves having been victims of pedophilia when they were children. (Never mind perhaps not wishing to inflict on another child what was inflicted on you!)

    The most likely cause of homosexuality is having first experiences of sexual arousal in the presence of another member of the same sex, whether a contemporary or an older man (or woman in the case of girls). If random sexual arousal is then reinforced by sexual gratification and orgasm, then the behavior is more likely to occur and become the dominant behavioral pattern.

    This would be consistent with the natural history of fetishes–sexual arousal in the presence of ostensibly nonsexual object. The theory is that the child is imprinted with inappropriate sexual stimuli at a very young age, rather in the same way that ducklings or geese sometimes get the mistaken idea that a dog is their mother and grow up using dogs as role models. (Fortunately Labrador retrievers like to swim!)

    It is a pity that nobody has yet figured this out by studying a bit of zoology.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    @Jonathan Mason

    'The most likely cause of homosexuality is having first experiences of sexual arousal in the presence of another member of the same sex, whether a contemporary or an older man (or woman in the case of girls). If random sexual arousal is then reinforced by sexual gratification and orgasm, then the behavior is more likely to occur and become the dominant behavioral pattern.'

    I think there might be something to that. It'd certainly explain the epidemic incidence of homosexuality among members of the British upper classes once they all started to be packed off to sexually segregated schools until they were eighteen.

    , @TelfoedJohn
    @Jonathan Mason

    This is why the gays are so enthusiastic about things like Drag Queen Reading Hour for little kids.

    , @guest
    @Jonathan Mason

    Homosexuality was once considered paraphilia or fetish, before it became an anointing from the Finger of God, or however we conceive of it now. However, I think it has to be more specific than merely arousal in a man's presence. Because I assume many more boys are aroused at odd times in front of other males than boys end up being gay.

    Replies: @Jonathan Mason

    , @Grace Jones
    @Jonathan Mason

    But geese don't need dogs as role models. They naturally form gangs and patrol territory and attack trespassers.

  88. ‘I’ve read that the lower ones may not be quite as strictly heritable so much as they set you up in a way that if various post-genomic, post-mitosis mutations or “Waddington valley” chances occur during fetal development or very early childhood you veer into being gay, or left handed.’

    I think a couple of points are worth making here. First, the incidence of homosexuality varies widely among different cultures, classes, and places. It seems to be viewed with blank horror in Eastern Europe and subsaharan Africa, accepted as fairly ordinary in Japan. Among upper-class Englishmen of the First World War generation, it seems to have reached the point where some figures started out as practicing homosexuals — only to eventually realize they were heterosexual after all.

    Second, sexual desire is at least partially culturally determined. A lot of cultures like big, fat women — so big and fat you or I would genuinely find them unattractive. Chinese used to have a foot fetish — and I don’t doubt that your average Chinese gentleman of the seventeenth century genuinely found small feet extremely erotic. Large breasts were and remain a real key in the West — they’re distained in other cultures.

    And so on. The point is that while some large chunk of the population may be potentially gay, what proportion actually wind up feeling that they are is probably culturally determined. You could raise me elsewhere and I would genuinely want a four-hundred pounder for a wife. I’d be completely sincere in that. You can raise me here, and I really don’t. Really. No foolin.’

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    @Colin Wright

    Have you any evidence for this pandemic of homosexuality amongst upper Englishmen in WWI? Sure some upper class fags could live openly due to their social status but I have no idea what you are talking about. Same sex relations are as prevelant in Eastern Europe as Western Europe and Sub Saharan Africans are on the down low more than anyone else, just it isn't broadcast publicly. I would expect the prevalence of homosexuality, whether open or not, to be largely similar.

    I expect it homosexuality is hard wired in people, perhaps a small number are inclined that way and can be persuaded. My revulsion of homosexuals certainly feels hard wired.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/8878301/Rugby-player-who-had-stroke-woke-up-gay-and-became-hairdresser.html

  89. @Lot
    @Flip

    “Keynes and Shakespeare”

    They both married though. JMK was late in life and no kids so maybe should count. WS had a few kinda homo sonnets but I don’t think that by itself says too much.

    I was thinking before the modern era when I was referring to a lack of British gay intellectuals.

    Now that I think about it, lots of British gays in the Victorian and early 20th Century.

    That era produced so many great minds though it would be hard to estimate a gay percentage and it still may be quite low. Keynes is really the only modern British example of a absolute first class mind. And Lord Byron was a bisexual.

    Replies: @Jonathan Mason, @Anonymous

    Now that I think about it, lots of British gays in the Victorian and early 20th Century.

    Due to boys of the upper classes being sent in large numbers to all-male boarding schools for the puberty years.

    In England it has also been noticed that sheep-shagging is more common among agricultural workers than bankers who specialize more in fleecing human victims.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @Jonathan Mason

    >banksters tend not to prefer sheep

    The globalists are buying up land in New Zealand ...

  90. @Jonathan Mason
    Pedophiles often claim that they became pedophiles by some mysterious process after themselves having been victims of pedophilia when they were children. (Never mind perhaps not wishing to inflict on another child what was inflicted on you!)

    The most likely cause of homosexuality is having first experiences of sexual arousal in the presence of another member of the same sex, whether a contemporary or an older man (or woman in the case of girls). If random sexual arousal is then reinforced by sexual gratification and orgasm, then the behavior is more likely to occur and become the dominant behavioral pattern.

    This would be consistent with the natural history of fetishes--sexual arousal in the presence of ostensibly nonsexual object. The theory is that the child is imprinted with inappropriate sexual stimuli at a very young age, rather in the same way that ducklings or geese sometimes get the mistaken idea that a dog is their mother and grow up using dogs as role models. (Fortunately Labrador retrievers like to swim!)

    https://cdn.ebs.newsner.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2018/05/Fred-Dog.jpg

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7qXWIxxd4I

    It is a pity that nobody has yet figured this out by studying a bit of zoology.

    Replies: @Colin Wright, @TelfoedJohn, @guest, @Grace Jones

    ‘The most likely cause of homosexuality is having first experiences of sexual arousal in the presence of another member of the same sex, whether a contemporary or an older man (or woman in the case of girls). If random sexual arousal is then reinforced by sexual gratification and orgasm, then the behavior is more likely to occur and become the dominant behavioral pattern.’

    I think there might be something to that. It’d certainly explain the epidemic incidence of homosexuality among members of the British upper classes once they all started to be packed off to sexually segregated schools until they were eighteen.

  91. @Jonathan Mason
    Pedophiles often claim that they became pedophiles by some mysterious process after themselves having been victims of pedophilia when they were children. (Never mind perhaps not wishing to inflict on another child what was inflicted on you!)

    The most likely cause of homosexuality is having first experiences of sexual arousal in the presence of another member of the same sex, whether a contemporary or an older man (or woman in the case of girls). If random sexual arousal is then reinforced by sexual gratification and orgasm, then the behavior is more likely to occur and become the dominant behavioral pattern.

    This would be consistent with the natural history of fetishes--sexual arousal in the presence of ostensibly nonsexual object. The theory is that the child is imprinted with inappropriate sexual stimuli at a very young age, rather in the same way that ducklings or geese sometimes get the mistaken idea that a dog is their mother and grow up using dogs as role models. (Fortunately Labrador retrievers like to swim!)

    https://cdn.ebs.newsner.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2018/05/Fred-Dog.jpg

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7qXWIxxd4I

    It is a pity that nobody has yet figured this out by studying a bit of zoology.

    Replies: @Colin Wright, @TelfoedJohn, @guest, @Grace Jones

    This is why the gays are so enthusiastic about things like Drag Queen Reading Hour for little kids.

  92. Anonymous[217] • Disclaimer says:
    @Reg Cæsar
    @The Cruncher

    I don't have thirty minutes to hear this through. Does he get around to my pet theory-- that in most cultures, queers have to marry and breed like everyone else? And they have more kids, because nothing gets you out of the hated sex act like pregnancy.

    Replies: @Thea, @Anonymous

    Yes.

    I think that homophobia creates conditions that perversely lead to more homos being born.

    I think there is some genetic component to being a homo. So in those ultra-conservative Muslim cultures, all homos are pressured into pretending to be straight, getting a straight marriage, and having straight sex even though they would rather not do it.

    So places in the Middle East probably have more homos per capita than progressive Western culturess.

  93. Get the Facts: Sexual Diversity

    Sexuality refers to the sexual feelings and attractions we have towards other people. There are many different types of sexuality and it can take a while for people to figure out what is right for them. All are perfectly normal and part of the broad range of human relationships and experiences. A person’s sexuality is a central part of who they are, and can influence their thoughts, feelings and actions.

    Getting to know your sexual identity

    Everybody has a sense of their sexuality: this is called your sexual identity. Your sexual identity is about how you see this part of yourself and how you express it to others. Sexual identity is different from sexual orientation. Sexual orientation is about your sexual preferences and who you are attracted to.

    Your sexual identity may not match your sexual orientation, for example, you may be a guy who is attracted to other guys but still identify as ‘straight’. Working out sexual orientation may be an ongoing process throughout a person’s life. For instance a young person might identify one way at one time then differently in a few years’ time.

    Homophobia can make some people feel intimidated about identifying as gay, lesbian or bisexual. Someone who ‘comes out’ to others is disclosing their sexual identity to family, friends, classmates, workmates etc.

    If you are feeling confused about your sexual identity or orientation, it’s important to talk to someone you trust about it. You can also contact the Freedom Centre (external site) or Living Proud (external site) for advice and support.

    https://www.getthefacts.health.wa.gov.au/relationships/sexual-diversity

  94. @Stogumber
    When I was young, it was fashionable to explain male homosexuality by genetics. Then it became unpopular - and now it is on the rise again, above all in LGBTQ circles.

    My objection: Every little boy is excited by being around a strapping young male. Only the more masculine boys try to imitate him - and the less masculine boys fail to imitate them and content themselves with using him as masturbation fantasies. And there is nothing more reinforcing (in the sense of classical behaviourism) than an orgasm.

    So the genetical difference is about masculinity/effeteness, whereas the rest (sexual orientation) can be explained merely by behaviourism.

    Replies: @BB753, @guest, @Cloudbuster, @LondonBob

    “Every little boy is excited by being around a strapping young male”

    Speak for yourself! Are you gay?

    “Only the more masculine boys try to imitate him – and the less masculine boys fail to imitate them and content themselves with using him as masturbation fantasies.”

    What about the boys in the middle?

  95. @Valentino
    @Lot


    Homosexuality has two distinct parts: removing desire for one sex and creating it for another. Otherwise you’d have a asexual or bisexual.
     
    Perhaps, homosexuality is a continuous phenomenon, not a discrete one. People that have more or stronger factors are inclined to be exclusive homosexuals, people that have fewer or weaker homosexual factors, are inclined to be bisexuals.

    Replies: @Stan Adams

    I’m a little reluctant to admit this, but that’s never stopped me before.

    Without discussing anything that I have or have not done, or what label I attach to anything, I can tell you that I am very much attracted to a certain kind of man. The vast majority of men do nothing for me, but I have a definite “type.”

    When I was in high school, there was a guy I knew who played on the football team. We never really talked one-on-one, but I saw him around all the time. He had a German last name – he wasn’t Jewish – and the looks to match – tall, muscular, broad shoulders tapering down to a trim waist, blond hair, blue eyes, square jaw. He wasn’t very smart – honestly, he was a stereotypical “dumb jock” – but he radiated confidence and cockiness and masculinity. The popular girls swarmed around him like moths drawn to a flame.

    His girlfriend was one of those high-maintenance blonde types. They used to fight a lot.

    (One time, while walking through the senior parking lot, I saw the two of them screaming at each other. He was yelling at her. I found myself wishing that they would break up then and there. “Whatever you did, bitch, you deserve it,” I thought to myself.)

    My feelings toward him were ambivalent. I admired him, even idolized him. But I really hated him, because I was insanely jealous of his body and his face. But I realized even then that much of my hatred was due to the fact that he would never look at me the way he looked at his girlfriend.

    [MORE]

    Judging by the way he talked about “fags,” I surmised (probably correctly) that he would beat the shit out of me if he ever found out how I really felt about him. We were about the same height, and I weighed more than him, but I was fat and he was fit and he would have wiped the floor with me.

    We graduated. I attended a four-year university in the same area where I grew up. I still lived with my mother, so I ended up going to the same stores and restaurants that I had always patronized.

    About a year after my high-school graduation, I stopped at a popular local barbecue spot to pick up a phone order. I got out of the car and then – suddenly, shockingly – there he was, standing a few feet away from me, just chilling out. If anything, his physique was even more impressive than it had been during his playing days. I found myself staring at him until he shot me a wary glance – as if to say, “What are *you* looking at?” Then someone came out of the back entrance and asked him a question, and I realized that he was working there. He went back inside.

    I went inside to pick up my order, but I didn’t see him again. The next few times I went to that place, I didn’t see him.

    About a year after that, I went to another restaurant – a sports bar – for lunch. I sat down at my table, looked over the menu, and then glanced up at the waiter to see … him. Standing not two feet away from me, asking me for my drink order.

    I’m rarely left speechless by anyone or anything, but I could barely manage to stammer out that I just wanted some water.

    By the time he came back, I had recovered enough to make a little light conversation.

    After ordering my burger, I said, “You’re [that guy], aren’t you? I remember you from high school.”

    He smiled – he had a dazzling smile – and said, “Hey, yeah, I remember you! [Stan], right? How you doin’?”

    “Fine,” I said. “I thought I saw you one day working at [the barbecue place].”

    “Yeah, I was a manager there for a while. But I make a lot more money as a server here. Especially on Friday and Saturday night.”

    That was the general tone of our conversation. He had nothing terribly profound to say, but he was so good-looking and charismatic that I could have listened to him reading the phone book out loud. I had no doubt that many customers – especially women – left him very generous tips. (Certainly I did.)

    I got into the habit of eating at that place all the time, especially at lunch. (He wasn’t the only reason – the weekday lunch special was a good deal.) I saw him a lot. We talked a few times. We didn’t have all that much in common, but I always tried to find some excuse to start a conversation. A couple of times he sat in my booth while taking his break.

    In all of those conversations, I never so much as hinted that, if he had even the slightest interest in experimenting, I would have been willing in a nanosecond.

    The closest I ever came to revealing my true interest in him was when I asked him about his old girlfriend. He was sitting in my booth, absent-mindedly glancing at a female customer a few tables away.

    “She went away for college,” he said. “We haven’t talked since she left.”

    “Are you seeing anyone else?” I asked.

    He flashed a slightly mischievous smile and said, “Nah, just playing the field. Know what I mean?”

    I’ve never been good at smiling on cue, but I gave him my very best effort. “Yeah, I know what you mean.”

    The female customer got up and left. She passed by our booth on the way out. As soon as we were out of her field of sight, he turned his head around to take a long, lingering look at her ass. I made a somewhat self-conscious effort to look like I was checking her out, too.

    I found myself thinking about her … and him, together. Wondering what he would do to her.

    He smirked at me. “You’re thinking what I’m thinking,” he said.

    I smirked, too, but not for the same reason. “You know I am,” I said.

    This continued for about a year. Then, one day, I came in during one of his usual shifts, looked around, and didn’t see him. Another waiter with whom I had conversed a few times walked up to my booth.

    “Is [the guy] off today?” I asked.

    The waiter looked as if I’d punched him in the gut.

    “You haven’t heard?” he asked.

    “No,” I said, feeling a sudden surge of panic. “Did he quit?”

    The waiter closed his eyes and took a deep breath. “I’m sorry to be the one who has to tell you. He’s dead.”

    I gasped, as if *I’d* just been sucker-punched. Part of me thought that it had to be a sick joke. Several seconds passed before I could take another breath.

    “What happened?” I asked at long last.

    “He and some buddies went to a hotel on Saturday night. Their room was on the fifteenth floor. They were all hanging out on the balcony. He’d had a few beers and was sitting on the railing. All of a sudden he just leaned back too far and fell off.”

    “Holy s**t,” I whispered.

    “He didn’t say a word on the way down. He didn’t scream, didn’t yell – nothing. They said he died instantly as soon as he hit the ground.”

    I’m a voracious eater, but I barely nibbled on my burger on that particular day.

    After all those years of my strange love/hate obsession with him, all those weird coincidences that seemed designed to keep me in his orbit, all those conversations laced with hidden meanings, suddenly he was gone forever.

    In short order, I found another place to eat. There were simply too many complicated memories attached to that particular restaurant. I’ve rarely been back since. (One time, I contracted food poisoning and barfed up my lunch in the parking lot.)

    There have been other guys who’ve caught my attention.

    About ten years ago, I had a co-worker who haunted my thoughts. He was from the Upper Midwest, but had a Latvian surname. (Yes, I looked it up.) He was very tall, not as muscular as I would have preferred (he was a bespectacled academic), and (worst of all) almost totally bald. But he had the most brilliant, piercing eyes – blue with swirls of grey. They brought to mind the chilly hue of the Arctic Sea.

    I rarely had a legitimate reason to interact with him, but I took advantage of every single conceivable opportunity to engage him in conversation. He was reserved, even a little shy, but polite. Eventually he left for another position elsewhere and I never saw him again.

    That’s usually how it is – I see a guy, (maybe) find some reason to talk to him, (sometimes) get to know him a little, but never end up doing anything with him. Invariably these guys are tall – never shorter than 6’2″, often 6’5″ or above – being the most common – and well-built and Nordic-looking. I make a point of befriending as many of them as I can. But I can never find the nerve to tell them what I’m really thinking.

    My mother claims that my father was the same way. He was a jock in high school and college and was very active in amateur sports in his early adulthood. Even when my parents were married, my father spent most of his free time with his teammates.

    My mother says that there was one guy in particular who may or may not have been gay himself, but who knew that my father was mesmerized with him and thoroughly enjoyed being the dominant figure.

    “Your father followed this guy around like a lovesick puppy dog,” she told me once. “He hung on his every word. He had him over for dinner and I had to sit there watching them flirt with each other across the table for two hours. He *never* looked at me like that. After a while he didn’t even want to touch me.”

    One time, when we were arguing, my mother shouted, “You’re a fag, just like your father! You sure as hell didn’t get it from me!”

    But then she softened her tone and added, “But at least you’re not the girl, like he was.”

    No, I’m not the girl – never the girl. That is one thing that I never have done and never will do.

  96. @Anonymous
    The articles author actually suggests that gays indirectly contribute to reproduction by helping raise the children of straight family members.

    Guy is really reaching to explain some sort of benefit that homosexuality may lend to humanity. Being a genetic dead end must create a lot of existential angst.

    Replies: @Michael S

    Group selection is pretty much rejected by evo scientists anyway. There’s no evidence that it exists, no formal mechanism by which it can be explained to operate, and generally no way for a local fitness-obliterator to provide enough of a nonlocal advantage to be selected for.

    GWAS will probably support the current scientific hypothesis, which is that homosexuality is related to the same group of alleles that are responsible for promiscuity, peacocking and male “prettiness”, which are normally an advantage without the homosexuality, but degenerate into homosexuality with certain environmental triggers.

    Twin studies are good at finding very strongly heritable traits, but if homosexuality itself is not a heritable trait, but rather the expression of a heritable trait in some specific environment, then twin studies will only find weak associations. But what GWAS will hopefully tell us is that nearly all homosexuals share certain alleles, which exist but at a much lower frequency in the heterosexual population (like say 90% for homos, 50% for heteros).

    Time will tell, but if the above is what we see, then it will not only explain the actual apparent recent rise in homosexuality, but indicate that it is a potentially preventable and/or treatable condition.

  97. @Lot
    @caffeine withdrawals

    “Gays seem to be better-looking on average than straight men, and maybe even a bit smarter.”

    One write-up said those with the gay gene are better looking. I highly doubt the effect, if real, is large enough to identify anecdotally.

    “and maybe even a bit smarter.”

    The great geniuses to come out of Italy seem to have been heavily gay. I can’t think of even one of the top British or French minds who were gay other than Bacon.

    Arthur Hu speculated there was a gay male IQ advantage based on higher college degree rate. Far from conclusive however as gays I believe avoid a lot of jobs that pay well and don’t require college.

    The Harvard Crimson freshman surveys (going back 20 years) report a lot of gays there compared with the gen-pop. But again that could be non random selection of the students or the survey.

    Replies: @Flip, @nobodyofnowhere, @BB753, @Half Canadian, @Anonymous, @kaganovitch

    Bacon the modern painter was gay. But surely Francis Bacon the great philosopher was not?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Bacon

  98. “Please don’t deplete our stock of fresh, young inductees, Mr. Science.”

    – Gay Men

  99. @Other Side
    2043 -

    European parliament votes mandatory homo-gene implantation for all newly conceived children in name of diversity and LGBTQWFKSJS rights .

    Replies: @Zedrick, @Anonymous

    Do you really think it will take that long?

  100. It could also revise queer folks’ relationship to our ancestry. Like most gay men, I was born to straight parents, and (barring the sort of revelation that would upend a family reunion) my grandparents were just as straight. I can’t trace my queerness back along my family tree in the same way I can trace my blue eyes, my small but sturdy stature, or my ancestors’ immigration from the Low Countries to the colony of Pennsylvania to freely practice a fringe take on Protestantism. But the genes that help make me gay form another kind of family tree, intertwined with and beyond the one recorded in the family Bible. The branches of that tree are a biological link from me to my queer chosen family, and to queer historical figures who have shaped the world we live in today, from Harvey Milk to Sappho.

    The most depressing neologism of the 2010s must be ‘chosen family’, followed by ‘work family’. Our ancestors had far richer, more meaningful lives that being able to look up almost any piece of information ever written shockingly doesn’t seem to even barely make up for anymore.

    I do like how he brags about his ‘blue eyes’ and ‘sturdy stature’. But it’s okay because he reminds us of his ancestors’ immigration from the Low Countries to the colony of Pennsylvania to freely practice a fringe take on Protestantism. He’s only descended from oldest surviving white colonists, but the Dutch ones not some WASP! They were religious asylum seekers! Flight from white: Pennsylvania Dutch edition!

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @Altai

    >The most depressing neologism of the 2010s must be ‘chosen family’

    Speak for yourself, I identify as a Rothschild.

    , @Jonathan Mason
    @Altai


    The most depressing neologism of the 2010s must be ‘chosen family’,
     
    Neologism?

    Mark 3:31-35 31

    Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, "Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you." "Who are my mother and my brothers?" he asked. Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother.
  101. @Jonathan Mason
    Pedophiles often claim that they became pedophiles by some mysterious process after themselves having been victims of pedophilia when they were children. (Never mind perhaps not wishing to inflict on another child what was inflicted on you!)

    The most likely cause of homosexuality is having first experiences of sexual arousal in the presence of another member of the same sex, whether a contemporary or an older man (or woman in the case of girls). If random sexual arousal is then reinforced by sexual gratification and orgasm, then the behavior is more likely to occur and become the dominant behavioral pattern.

    This would be consistent with the natural history of fetishes--sexual arousal in the presence of ostensibly nonsexual object. The theory is that the child is imprinted with inappropriate sexual stimuli at a very young age, rather in the same way that ducklings or geese sometimes get the mistaken idea that a dog is their mother and grow up using dogs as role models. (Fortunately Labrador retrievers like to swim!)

    https://cdn.ebs.newsner.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2018/05/Fred-Dog.jpg

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7qXWIxxd4I

    It is a pity that nobody has yet figured this out by studying a bit of zoology.

    Replies: @Colin Wright, @TelfoedJohn, @guest, @Grace Jones

    Homosexuality was once considered paraphilia or fetish, before it became an anointing from the Finger of God, or however we conceive of it now. However, I think it has to be more specific than merely arousal in a man’s presence. Because I assume many more boys are aroused at odd times in front of other males than boys end up being gay.

    • Replies: @Jonathan Mason
    @guest


    I assume many more boys are aroused at odd times in front of other males than boys end up being gay.
     
    This may be so, for example when I was a schoolboy of 11 or 12 there were other boys who would publicly masturbate in the changing rooms after soccer and others would watch. As far as I recall I was never one of the masturbators, but then their cachet, if you like, was that they were able to ejaculate copious amounts of semen when we could not, so we would not have had anything to show off.

    I can still name the boys, if you like, but won't as they might be reading this. However, I always found the most prominent masturbation demonstrator more interesting for his descriptions of making home made pipe bombs during the Christmas break by taking powder from shotgun cartridges than for his ginger-haired penis. With such a combination of skills, I am sure he had a successful career in something.

    However it would have been unthinkable for a boy to KISS another boy.

    But the anecdote does illustrate that it takes very little to make adolescent boys sexually aroused. In fact this happens even without a stimulus or during sleep. So I still think homosexuality is more of an immature kind of sexual expression that has persisted into adulthood. It more or less comes down to a form of mutual masturbation in the same sense that having sex with a prostitute can resemble masturbating into a condom inside a vagina.

    Being gay is probably a lifestyle choice based on taking the easier path to sexual popularity, like using marijuana or cocaine in places where it is illegal. It seems to have become much more common today than when I was young and it was considered gross and illegal.

    Fortunately I am too old to even think of starting new sexual relationships, and have no desire to do so, so I feel that I can be reasonably objective about it all. Bottom line: when you reach the point that you have had all the recreational sex you ever wanted, you realize that it was hardly ever worth the effort, and that once children are made, it is job done.

  102. @Stogumber
    When I was young, it was fashionable to explain male homosexuality by genetics. Then it became unpopular - and now it is on the rise again, above all in LGBTQ circles.

    My objection: Every little boy is excited by being around a strapping young male. Only the more masculine boys try to imitate him - and the less masculine boys fail to imitate them and content themselves with using him as masturbation fantasies. And there is nothing more reinforcing (in the sense of classical behaviourism) than an orgasm.

    So the genetical difference is about masculinity/effeteness, whereas the rest (sexual orientation) can be explained merely by behaviourism.

    Replies: @BB753, @guest, @Cloudbuster, @LondonBob

    If you stretch the meaning of “excited,” maybe. But not sexually excited, to be sure.

  103. @Reg Cæsar
    Yoder is a common Amish name. This guy puts the Men- in Mennonite.

    Replies: @fish, @Redneck farmer

    There are probably a s***load of Amish laughing at that, Reg.

  104. “I think this is for homosexual males, not females”

    Yes. We all know lesbians derive from man-hatred, justified and unjustified. Especially involving stepdads. General unattractiveness helps.

    Also, kissing games at slumber parties.

  105. If the Athenians were to be believed, 100% of the male population of ancient Sparta engaged in homosexual behavior. One writer noted that they were quite cold toward their wives and preferred to spend their nights in the barracks. If true, this would suggest human sexual preferences are primarily created through social conditioning and imprinting during adolescence.

  106. @Days of Broken Arrows
    This is unrelated, but for possible use for a future blog post. From the Washington Post: "A mother reported a teen bully for racially taunting her son. Then he beat her unconscious, police say."

    It's the third "most read" story today. The victim is Hispanic. You don't find out until the 14th paragraph that "the 13-year-old suspect is African-American."

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/06/26/mother-teen-bully-assault-mexico/?tid=pm_pop

    Replies: @CCZ, @J.Ross, @Jus' Sayin'..., @anon, @Zedrick

    “Passaic Gifted and Talented Academy School No. 20”

    If it’s #2o, I don’t know how gifted & talented the students would be.
    I thinks this is a case of making the little tykes feel good about themselves.
    Even if most are too dumb to know how dumb they actually are.

  107. @Stogumber
    When I was young, it was fashionable to explain male homosexuality by genetics. Then it became unpopular - and now it is on the rise again, above all in LGBTQ circles.

    My objection: Every little boy is excited by being around a strapping young male. Only the more masculine boys try to imitate him - and the less masculine boys fail to imitate them and content themselves with using him as masturbation fantasies. And there is nothing more reinforcing (in the sense of classical behaviourism) than an orgasm.

    So the genetical difference is about masculinity/effeteness, whereas the rest (sexual orientation) can be explained merely by behaviourism.

    Replies: @BB753, @guest, @Cloudbuster, @LondonBob

    My objection: Every little boy is excited by being around a strapping young male. Only the more masculine boys try to imitate him – and the less masculine boys fail to imitate them and content themselves with using him as masturbation fantasies. And there is nothing more reinforcing (in the sense of classical behaviourism) than an orgasm.

    You’re projecting.

    • Agree: TWS
  108. @guest
    @Jonathan Mason

    Homosexuality was once considered paraphilia or fetish, before it became an anointing from the Finger of God, or however we conceive of it now. However, I think it has to be more specific than merely arousal in a man's presence. Because I assume many more boys are aroused at odd times in front of other males than boys end up being gay.

    Replies: @Jonathan Mason

    I assume many more boys are aroused at odd times in front of other males than boys end up being gay.

    This may be so, for example when I was a schoolboy of 11 or 12 there were other boys who would publicly masturbate in the changing rooms after soccer and others would watch. As far as I recall I was never one of the masturbators, but then their cachet, if you like, was that they were able to ejaculate copious amounts of semen when we could not, so we would not have had anything to show off.

    I can still name the boys, if you like, but won’t as they might be reading this. However, I always found the most prominent masturbation demonstrator more interesting for his descriptions of making home made pipe bombs during the Christmas break by taking powder from shotgun cartridges than for his ginger-haired penis. With such a combination of skills, I am sure he had a successful career in something.

    However it would have been unthinkable for a boy to KISS another boy.

    But the anecdote does illustrate that it takes very little to make adolescent boys sexually aroused. In fact this happens even without a stimulus or during sleep. So I still think homosexuality is more of an immature kind of sexual expression that has persisted into adulthood. It more or less comes down to a form of mutual masturbation in the same sense that having sex with a prostitute can resemble masturbating into a condom inside a vagina.

    Being gay is probably a lifestyle choice based on taking the easier path to sexual popularity, like using marijuana or cocaine in places where it is illegal. It seems to have become much more common today than when I was young and it was considered gross and illegal.

    Fortunately I am too old to even think of starting new sexual relationships, and have no desire to do so, so I feel that I can be reasonably objective about it all. Bottom line: when you reach the point that you have had all the recreational sex you ever wanted, you realize that it was hardly ever worth the effort, and that once children are made, it is job done.

  109. @Lot
    @caffeine withdrawals

    “Gays seem to be better-looking on average than straight men, and maybe even a bit smarter.”

    One write-up said those with the gay gene are better looking. I highly doubt the effect, if real, is large enough to identify anecdotally.

    “and maybe even a bit smarter.”

    The great geniuses to come out of Italy seem to have been heavily gay. I can’t think of even one of the top British or French minds who were gay other than Bacon.

    Arthur Hu speculated there was a gay male IQ advantage based on higher college degree rate. Far from conclusive however as gays I believe avoid a lot of jobs that pay well and don’t require college.

    The Harvard Crimson freshman surveys (going back 20 years) report a lot of gays there compared with the gen-pop. But again that could be non random selection of the students or the survey.

    Replies: @Flip, @nobodyofnowhere, @BB753, @Half Canadian, @Anonymous, @kaganovitch

    I’ve thought that being open-minded has an advantage to intellectual/artistic achievements, and this may be associated with being gay. After all, if you get over the disgust of having sex with someone of the same sex, I’m sure it feels pretty good. You just need to be open-minded enough to try it.

    • Replies: @e
    @Half Canadian

    Whatever....but you seem to think homosexuality is only about sex. Research shows that homosexuals are emotionally attracted to males as well, that the attraction is romantic as well as sexual, that they fall in love with males.

    It makes sense, therefore, that many gay males speak of having had sex with females. The opportunity was there, they took it, and it led to orgasm.

    However, they also say it can't compare to their experiences with and their attraction to males.

    There are also gay men disgusted by the thought of sex with a woman. They are disgusted by the female body parts.

  110. @wow
    Male homosexuality is caused by an unknown in utero virus or a virus picked up during male adolescence. When we discover the virus, we can vaccinate against it like smallpox. That is the real threat to gayness.

    Replies: @Dave from Oz

    Male homosexuality is caused by an unknown in utero virus or a virus picked up during male adolescence.

    I was noticing tits even before adolescence, I have been straight all my life. Many gay men report feeling gay from early boyhood. Hopefully, this is just trolling because it is flat-out wrong.

    • Replies: @Peripatetic Commenter
    @Dave from Oz


    Many gay men report feeling gay from early boyhood. Hopefully, this is just trolling because it is flat-out wrong.
     
    So what.

    Another possibility that has not been mentioned is that males have to transition from male/male bonding during their childhood to lusting after females when they go through puberty.

    That is, before puberty, males tend to have much more dislike for females than females have for males. They also tend to prefer all male groups and the company of other males. Puberty is when that starts to change.

    Some males, perhaps because of a virus, do not make the transition, so they fix their sexual desires on males.

    Replies: @Lot

    , @Days of Broken Arrows
    @Dave from Oz

    This is something that rarely gets mentioned. But now that you opened up the proverbial can of worms, I have memories of my second grade friends and I going on about the female gym teacher being "stacked." We definitely noticed. And years later, I also had gay male friends tell me they knew they were gay in elementary school when they got crushes on their male teachers.

    The problem with this discussion is that as soon as you bring up kids and sex, people get uncomfortable and online moderators come after you. But it needs to be discussed for a better understanding of sexuality.

    To this day I still remember the name (and look) of that female gym teacher, so there was a definitely hetero thing going on with me in second grade. I should also mention that back then I thought Jan Brady was extremely "foxy." Still so. I didn't tune into "The Brady Bunch" for Sam the butcher or the lame plots.

    , @danand
    @Dave from Oz

    Dave,


    "I was noticing tits even before adolescence, I have been straight all my life. Many gay men report feeling gay from early boyhood. Hopefully, this is just trolling because it is flat-out wrong."
     
    My experience, and those of friends, workmates, & acquaintances, are all very similar to yours. Unless one of those on the non-sexual/bi spectrum, they have said they have known from an early (prepubescent) age their "orientation". Typically for a "straight" young boy it's a friends mom or teacher that captures your attention: dreams ensue. It's pretty simple for the great majority of men; which gender do you desire to see naked?

    I know it's just anecdotal; but I'll share anyway. Way back around 1980 I picked up an aunt's soon to be 2nd husband from the Alameda Navy dock. The soon to be uncle gave me a short tour around the ship he was stationed on, and off we went in my fathers '72 Pinto wagon. He was a very pleasant, straight forward guy. But within minutes of meeting him I began to wonder why my aunt was going to marry a "gay" guy? It wasn't anything he was saying, he wasn't hitting on me: it was just obvious, plain as day to me. I never got another chance to speak directly with him again, and my sister was the only person I shared the observation with.

    Twenty years later I went to a reunion were I met my two grown cousins from that union at a wedding. One of the two boys was/is an "out" gay. The wedding was my cousin Jenny's, from the same aunts 1st marriage. I had met the groom a few days prior to the wedding. Again a pleasant man, but again struck me right away as gay. Of that union there are two daughters, one of whom is an "out" lesbian.

    What are the odds, I surely don't know; but I'd bet bottom dollar 23&me will have a reasonable estimate on that soon.

    BTW - I know I'm sick, but did anyone else see that pic of Kellyanne Conway with her tongue out on Drudge and feel a tinge?

    https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48136229186_0cea60c081_m.jpg

    Replies: @Hibernian

    , @TWS
    @Dave from Oz

    The incidence presents like a virus and the numbers back it. Wouldn't surprise me at all.

  111. From the department of You Couldn’t Make This Sit Up.
    https://dailycaller.com/2019/06/22/mom-protest-drag-queen-story-hour-sniper/

    • Replies: @Grace Jones
    @Bill Jones


    “Drag queens act like clowns as if that’s the way women act. It is used to make fun of the way women act,” she said.
     
    This is true.
  112. @Altai

    It could also revise queer folks’ relationship to our ancestry. Like most gay men, I was born to straight parents, and (barring the sort of revelation that would upend a family reunion) my grandparents were just as straight. I can’t trace my queerness back along my family tree in the same way I can trace my blue eyes, my small but sturdy stature, or my ancestors’ immigration from the Low Countries to the colony of Pennsylvania to freely practice a fringe take on Protestantism. But the genes that help make me gay form another kind of family tree, intertwined with and beyond the one recorded in the family Bible. The branches of that tree are a biological link from me to my queer chosen family, and to queer historical figures who have shaped the world we live in today, from Harvey Milk to Sappho.
     
    The most depressing neologism of the 2010s must be 'chosen family', followed by 'work family'. Our ancestors had far richer, more meaningful lives that being able to look up almost any piece of information ever written shockingly doesn't seem to even barely make up for anymore.

    I do like how he brags about his 'blue eyes' and 'sturdy stature'. But it's okay because he reminds us of his ancestors’ immigration from the Low Countries to the colony of Pennsylvania to freely practice a fringe take on Protestantism. He's only descended from oldest surviving white colonists, but the Dutch ones not some WASP! They were religious asylum seekers! Flight from white: Pennsylvania Dutch edition!

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Jonathan Mason

    >The most depressing neologism of the 2010s must be ‘chosen family’

    Speak for yourself, I identify as a Rothschild.

  113. @Jonathan Mason
    @Lot


    Now that I think about it, lots of British gays in the Victorian and early 20th Century.
     
    Due to boys of the upper classes being sent in large numbers to all-male boarding schools for the puberty years.

    In England it has also been noticed that sheep-shagging is more common among agricultural workers than bankers who specialize more in fleecing human victims.

    Replies: @J.Ross

    >banksters tend not to prefer sheep

    The globalists are buying up land in New Zealand …

  114. Anonymous[324] • Disclaimer says:
    @Lot
    @Flip

    “Keynes and Shakespeare”

    They both married though. JMK was late in life and no kids so maybe should count. WS had a few kinda homo sonnets but I don’t think that by itself says too much.

    I was thinking before the modern era when I was referring to a lack of British gay intellectuals.

    Now that I think about it, lots of British gays in the Victorian and early 20th Century.

    That era produced so many great minds though it would be hard to estimate a gay percentage and it still may be quite low. Keynes is really the only modern British example of a absolute first class mind. And Lord Byron was a bisexual.

    Replies: @Jonathan Mason, @Anonymous

    G.H. Hardy, for a more modern example.

    Would you consider Kit Marlowe to be a top British mind?

    Neal Stephenson speculated about Isaac Newton’s predilections, although without a shred of evidence.

    • Replies: @Lot
    @Anonymous

    The evidence that Marlowe was gay described in Wikipedia is very weak.

  115. @Anonymous
    Its great news for parents who want choice about aborting homosexual children.

    Ask Butt Edge if he supports a womans's right to abort gay fetuses. What other traits and behaviors abilities are genetically heritable ? Naturally they must vary by ancestry groups exposed to different evolutionary forces.

    Science is good.

    Replies: @DCThrowback

    yet another way to sever the ties that bind the “coalition of the fringes”

  116. Where is G. Cochran when you need him?

    Also, do not believe Athenian propaganda. Spartans were very macho.

    • Replies: @gcochran
    @adreadline

    When my beard has grown around the table three times, I will awaken.

  117. Anon[152] • Disclaimer says:
    @Lot
    @Art Deco

    I think this is part of it, but another large part is multicausal/rare random mutation as with schizophrenia.

    I don’t find Cochran’s germ theory convincing. We have exactly one example of a germ having complex behavioral effects in human beings, and its effects are subtle (e.g. slightly worse driving) and nothing as dramatic, complicated or consistent as completely inverting sexual desire.

    Homosexuality has two distinct parts: removing desire for one sex and creating it for another. Otherwise you’d have a asexual or bisexual.

    Replies: @Valentino, @Anon, @gcochran

    I think this is part of it, but another large part is multicausal/rare random mutation as with schizophrenia.

    Schizophrenia is not caused by random mutations, but has been pinned down in GWAS studies. Plomin talks about it in his book, chapter 6, “Generalist Genes.” Schizophrenia is in a cluster of mental ilnesses that are almost indistinguishable from each other at the genetic level, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, and major depression (which is a completely different condition than depression itself, which is clustered with anxiety disorders).

    Because genetics has an aroma of badthink in academia, and because psychologists are siloed away from biology research, this stuff has not filtered down into standard psychological knowledge and practice, but the research is quite solid.

    • Replies: @gcochran
    @Anon

    Random mutations are almost certainly a big part of it, but GWAS does not detect them. The bit about the GWAS risk genes for schiz also being risk genes for other mental illnesses is correct and interesting. In terms of causation, at least, our categorization of mental illness was not right.

  118. So there is a gene that causes boys who get groomed and raped by predators to adopt that behavior themselves?

  119. Anon[152] • Disclaimer says:
    @CCZ
    @Days of Broken Arrows

    Surprise, Surprise, number of news articles / outlets other than WaPo mentioning that the arrested attacker was "African American": ZERO (O)

    Attack happened in vibrant Passaic NJ.

    Hispanic 74.4%
    White alone 14.7%
    Black alone 8%
    Asian alone 3.1%

    https://www.nj.com/news/2019/06/lawyer-nj-mom-knocked-out-by-school-bully-is-filing-a-notice-to-sue-the-district-this-week.html

    Replies: @ATBOTL, @william munny, @Anon

    An attorney for the New Jersey mother beaten unconscious by a bully who told her son “Mexicans should go back behind the wall,” said he will file a notice to sue the Passaic school district this week.

    Pet peeve: Why is the kid himself not named in the civil suit? Sure, he’s not going to be able to contribute anything to paying the judgment, and you want to sue the deep pockets. But the criminal justice system will not put a black kid in jail where he should be. So the tort system should be used to otherwise extract revenge. Make mom take out a second mortgage to pay a lawyer, if she has a house. Use the discovery process to find out about his past, and use that information to get him permanently expelled from the school district upon threat of suing school district officials over irresponsibly allowing him to attend school. Put the kid on a faster track school to prison pipeline.

  120. @Flip
    @Lot


    The great geniuses to come out of Italy seem to have been heavily gay. I can’t think of even one of the top British or French minds who were gay other than Bacon.
     
    Keynes and Shakespeare?

    Replies: @Lot, @Reg Cæsar

    Keynes and Shakespeare?

    Stay away from Sobran on this subject.

    Joe was a “homophobe” who thought his hero was a poofter. AL Rowse was a poofter who swore the man was straight and virile. I’d go with Rowse.

    Those like Joseph Pearce who think the Bard was a recusant Catholic are on firmer footing. Even if wrong, they’re not fools.

    • Replies: @Precious
    @Reg Cæsar

    Sobran based his theory on the Sonnets. But another Oxfordian researcher, Hank Whittemore, makes a pretty good case that the Sonnets were a political statement. Check out The Monument published in 2005.

  121. @Half Canadian
    @Lot

    I've thought that being open-minded has an advantage to intellectual/artistic achievements, and this may be associated with being gay. After all, if you get over the disgust of having sex with someone of the same sex, I'm sure it feels pretty good. You just need to be open-minded enough to try it.

    Replies: @e

    Whatever….but you seem to think homosexuality is only about sex. Research shows that homosexuals are emotionally attracted to males as well, that the attraction is romantic as well as sexual, that they fall in love with males.

    It makes sense, therefore, that many gay males speak of having had sex with females. The opportunity was there, they took it, and it led to orgasm.

    However, they also say it can’t compare to their experiences with and their attraction to males.

    There are also gay men disgusted by the thought of sex with a woman. They are disgusted by the female body parts.

  122. Anonymous[270] • Disclaimer says:
    @Other Side
    2043 -

    European parliament votes mandatory homo-gene implantation for all newly conceived children in name of diversity and LGBTQWFKSJS rights .

    Replies: @Zedrick, @Anonymous

    That’s assuming that EU Parliament will still exist in 2043. That’s far from certain. 50/50 at best.

    • Agree: jim jones
  123. anonymous[751] • Disclaimer says:
    @danand

    “Linguist professors Henry Rogers and Ron Smyth attempted to find out why some gay men “sound” gay in their 2002 study, Searching for Phonetic Correlates of Gay- and Straight-Sounding Voices. The researchers asked people to listen to the recordings of 25 men of mixed sexual orientation and try to guess which sexuality the speakers identified as. Results showed that in 63 percent of the cases, the listeners correctly identified the sexual orientation of the speakers.”

     

    Could the genetic predisposition for a Lisp be associated?

    Replies: @Prof. Woland, @anonymous

    I really don’t think it’s taught/learned.

    Some may later affect it (I kind of doubt it but whatever–maybe some do) but it certainly shows up in childhood. david sedaris eg wrote about getting speech therapy as a young child for his gay lisp.

  124. @Jack Hanson
    Queens new DA is a Soros stooge who won't prosecute crimes.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/ScottMGreer/status/1143721735587598336

    Replies: @Daniel H, @Jim Don Bob, @Corn

    The SJWs elected one here in the Peoples’ Republic.

    The babe who won is a public defender backed by Soros. She cited a case of “police brutality” where a cop shot a guy -after- the guy took an iron bar to the cop’s face which required 60+ stitches.

    https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/politics/elections/incumbent-top-prosecutors-fall-in-virginia-primary-amid-calls-for-criminal-justice-reform/65-c7a81328-cb45-4dad-89c8-3397f633473f

  125. @Hypnotoad666
    @Lot


    The article isn’t about a gene that makes someone gay, but genes that makes someone slightly more likely to be so.
     
    I think that's a distinction without a difference from a natural selection point of view. The extent to which a gene leads to homosexuality and non-reproduction is the extent to which it has negative survival value. So one still has to posit a reason that a gene that "makes someone slightly more likely to be [gay]" hasn't been removed from the pool over time.

    But until they actually figure out the biological mechanism(s) that determine sexual preference I suppose it's all just speculation, anyway.

    Replies: @Peripatetic Commenter

    I think that’s a distinction without a difference from a natural selection point of view. The extent to which a gene leads to homosexuality and non-reproduction is the extent to which it has negative survival value.

    Indeed. Compare with: https://infogalactic.com/info/Skoptsy

  126. @Dave from Oz
    @wow


    Male homosexuality is caused by an unknown in utero virus or a virus picked up during male adolescence.
     
    I was noticing tits even before adolescence, I have been straight all my life. Many gay men report feeling gay from early boyhood. Hopefully, this is just trolling because it is flat-out wrong.

    Replies: @Peripatetic Commenter, @Days of Broken Arrows, @danand, @TWS

    Many gay men report feeling gay from early boyhood. Hopefully, this is just trolling because it is flat-out wrong.

    So what.

    Another possibility that has not been mentioned is that males have to transition from male/male bonding during their childhood to lusting after females when they go through puberty.

    That is, before puberty, males tend to have much more dislike for females than females have for males. They also tend to prefer all male groups and the company of other males. Puberty is when that starts to change.

    Some males, perhaps because of a virus, do not make the transition, so they fix their sexual desires on males.

    • Replies: @Lot
    @Peripatetic Commenter

    Michael Bailey found most effeminate young boys become gay adults. For them at least sexual orientation was fixed well before puberty.

  127. Anonymous[383] • Disclaimer says:
    @Lot
    @caffeine withdrawals

    “Gays seem to be better-looking on average than straight men, and maybe even a bit smarter.”

    One write-up said those with the gay gene are better looking. I highly doubt the effect, if real, is large enough to identify anecdotally.

    “and maybe even a bit smarter.”

    The great geniuses to come out of Italy seem to have been heavily gay. I can’t think of even one of the top British or French minds who were gay other than Bacon.

    Arthur Hu speculated there was a gay male IQ advantage based on higher college degree rate. Far from conclusive however as gays I believe avoid a lot of jobs that pay well and don’t require college.

    The Harvard Crimson freshman surveys (going back 20 years) report a lot of gays there compared with the gen-pop. But again that could be non random selection of the students or the survey.

    Replies: @Flip, @nobodyofnowhere, @BB753, @Half Canadian, @Anonymous, @kaganovitch

    The great geniuses to come out of Italy seem to have been heavily gay. I can’t think of even one of the top British or French minds who were gay other than Bacon.

    Since the discussion is about homosexuality and genetics, Bacon is a good example of a homosexual which had homosexual close relatives. His brother Anthony was charged with sodomy in France, but the king of Navarre saved him of punishment (burn at the stake). And for Francis, there also had been the question of bringing him to trial for buggery. Bacon’s fellow Member of Parliament Simonds D’Ewes wrote in his diaries:

    . . . the favour he had with the beloved Marquis of Buckingham emboldened him, as I learned in discourse from a gentleman of his bedchamber, who told me he was sure his lord should never fall as long as the said Marquis continued in favour. His most abominable and darling sinne I should rather burie in silence, than mencion it, were it not a most admirable instance, how men are enslaved by wickedness, & held captive by the devill. For wheeras presentlie upon his censure at this time his ambition was moderated, his pride humbled, and the meanes of his former injustice and corruption removed; yet would he not relinquish the practice of his most horrible & secret sinne of sodomie, keeping still one Godrick, a verie effeminate faced youth, to bee his catamite and bedfellow, although hee had discharged the most of his other household sevants: which was the moore to bee admired, because men generallie after his fall begann to discourse of that his unnaturall crime, which hee had practiced manie yeares, deserting the bedd of his Ladie, which hee accounted, as the Italians and the Turkes doe, a poore & meane pleasure in respect of the other; & it was thought by some, that hee should have been tried at the barre of justice for it, & have satisfied the law most severe against that horrible villanie with the price of his bloud; which caused some bold and forward man to write these verses following in a whole sheete of paper, & to cast it down in some part of Yorkehouse in the strand, wheere Viscount St. Alban yet lay:

    Within this sty a *hogg doth ly,
    That must be hang’d for Sodomy.
    (*alluding both to his sirname of Bacon, & to that swinish abominable sinne.)
    But hee never came to anye publicke triall for this crime; nor did ever, that I could heare, forbeare his old custome of making his servants his bedfellowes, soe to avoid the scandall was raised of him, though hee lived many yeares after his fall in his lodgings in Grayes Inne in Holbourne, in great want & penurie.

    But Francis brother-in-law Mervyn Tuchet, didn’t have the same luck of the Bacon brothers. He was executed accused of sodomy with pages in 1631. So, it’s not difficult to understand why there weren’t many records of open homosexuality in pre-modern times. Gays could lose their lives in those times. Homosexuals needed to be extremely careful.

  128. @Dave from Oz
    @wow


    Male homosexuality is caused by an unknown in utero virus or a virus picked up during male adolescence.
     
    I was noticing tits even before adolescence, I have been straight all my life. Many gay men report feeling gay from early boyhood. Hopefully, this is just trolling because it is flat-out wrong.

    Replies: @Peripatetic Commenter, @Days of Broken Arrows, @danand, @TWS

    This is something that rarely gets mentioned. But now that you opened up the proverbial can of worms, I have memories of my second grade friends and I going on about the female gym teacher being “stacked.” We definitely noticed. And years later, I also had gay male friends tell me they knew they were gay in elementary school when they got crushes on their male teachers.

    The problem with this discussion is that as soon as you bring up kids and sex, people get uncomfortable and online moderators come after you. But it needs to be discussed for a better understanding of sexuality.

    To this day I still remember the name (and look) of that female gym teacher, so there was a definitely hetero thing going on with me in second grade. I should also mention that back then I thought Jan Brady was extremely “foxy.” Still so. I didn’t tune into “The Brady Bunch” for Sam the butcher or the lame plots.

  129. @Arclight
    Semi-related, but has anyone asked the left lately on whether once abortion is legal at any stage of pregnancy if it's OK for the mother (my body, my choice!) to abort based on gender or sexual orientation of the fetus?

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @wow, @Anonymous, @Russell Upvittles, @Jackmaninov, @Peripatetic Commenter, @e, @Corn

    Someone correct me if I’m wrong but haven’t one or two red states either passed or proposed sex-selective abortion bans? I believe feminists flew into a tizzy over them as much as they do any abortion restriction.

    Sex selective abortion is mostly a south, maybe east Asian thing. Most “people of color” in the US are black or brown. So far feminists seem to view sex selective abortion as just some thing pro-lifers blather about as an excuse to restrict abortion.

  130. @Jack Hanson
    Queens new DA is a Soros stooge who won't prosecute crimes.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/ScottMGreer/status/1143721735587598336

    Replies: @Daniel H, @Jim Don Bob, @Corn

    This new trend of blue metropolises electing DAs who choose to serve as Chief Public Defenders is quite disturbing.

    And this time I doubt there’s enough white voters left to elect a Giuliani to the rescue.

  131. @Reg Cæsar
    @Flip


    Keynes and Shakespeare?
     
    Stay away from Sobran on this subject.

    Joe was a "homophobe" who thought his hero was a poofter. AL Rowse was a poofter who swore the man was straight and virile. I'd go with Rowse.

    Those like Joseph Pearce who think the Bard was a recusant Catholic are on firmer footing. Even if wrong, they're not fools.

    Replies: @Precious

    Sobran based his theory on the Sonnets. But another Oxfordian researcher, Hank Whittemore, makes a pretty good case that the Sonnets were a political statement. Check out The Monument published in 2005.

  132. @Dr. X

    Researchers may soon isolate the genetic roots of h̶o̶m̶o̶s̶e̶x̶u̶a̶l̶i̶t̶y spina bifida. As a scientist, that excites me. But as a g̶a̶y̶ ̶m̶a̶n̶ man with spina bifida, I worry about what might happen next.
     

    Replies: @Grace Jones

    “Spina bifida is best prevented by taking 400 micrograms (mcg) of folic acid every day. Studies have shown that if all women who could become pregnant were to take a multivitamin with the B-vitamin folic acid, the risk of neural tube defects could be reduced by up to 70%.”

  133. @Anonymous
    @Lot

    G.H. Hardy, for a more modern example.

    Would you consider Kit Marlowe to be a top British mind?

    Neal Stephenson speculated about Isaac Newton's predilections, although without a shred of evidence.

    Replies: @Lot

    The evidence that Marlowe was gay described in Wikipedia is very weak.

  134. @Peripatetic Commenter
    @Dave from Oz


    Many gay men report feeling gay from early boyhood. Hopefully, this is just trolling because it is flat-out wrong.
     
    So what.

    Another possibility that has not been mentioned is that males have to transition from male/male bonding during their childhood to lusting after females when they go through puberty.

    That is, before puberty, males tend to have much more dislike for females than females have for males. They also tend to prefer all male groups and the company of other males. Puberty is when that starts to change.

    Some males, perhaps because of a virus, do not make the transition, so they fix their sexual desires on males.

    Replies: @Lot

    Michael Bailey found most effeminate young boys become gay adults. For them at least sexual orientation was fixed well before puberty.

  135. @robot
    OT: could the rituals of orthodox judaism effectively attune individuals' immune systems to the group as a whole, to strengthen them collectively? might they similarly seek approaches that undermine other groups' immune systems? eg western literature has been a source of strength and security, now being undermined...

    Replies: @kaganovitch

    OT: could the rituals of orthodox judaism effectively attune individuals’ immune systems to the group as a whole, to strengthen them collectively? might they similarly seek approaches that undermine other groups’ immune systems?

    No.

  136. @Jonathan Mason
    Pedophiles often claim that they became pedophiles by some mysterious process after themselves having been victims of pedophilia when they were children. (Never mind perhaps not wishing to inflict on another child what was inflicted on you!)

    The most likely cause of homosexuality is having first experiences of sexual arousal in the presence of another member of the same sex, whether a contemporary or an older man (or woman in the case of girls). If random sexual arousal is then reinforced by sexual gratification and orgasm, then the behavior is more likely to occur and become the dominant behavioral pattern.

    This would be consistent with the natural history of fetishes--sexual arousal in the presence of ostensibly nonsexual object. The theory is that the child is imprinted with inappropriate sexual stimuli at a very young age, rather in the same way that ducklings or geese sometimes get the mistaken idea that a dog is their mother and grow up using dogs as role models. (Fortunately Labrador retrievers like to swim!)

    https://cdn.ebs.newsner.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2018/05/Fred-Dog.jpg

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7qXWIxxd4I

    It is a pity that nobody has yet figured this out by studying a bit of zoology.

    Replies: @Colin Wright, @TelfoedJohn, @guest, @Grace Jones

    But geese don’t need dogs as role models. They naturally form gangs and patrol territory and attack trespassers.

  137. @Lot
    @caffeine withdrawals

    “Gays seem to be better-looking on average than straight men, and maybe even a bit smarter.”

    One write-up said those with the gay gene are better looking. I highly doubt the effect, if real, is large enough to identify anecdotally.

    “and maybe even a bit smarter.”

    The great geniuses to come out of Italy seem to have been heavily gay. I can’t think of even one of the top British or French minds who were gay other than Bacon.

    Arthur Hu speculated there was a gay male IQ advantage based on higher college degree rate. Far from conclusive however as gays I believe avoid a lot of jobs that pay well and don’t require college.

    The Harvard Crimson freshman surveys (going back 20 years) report a lot of gays there compared with the gen-pop. But again that could be non random selection of the students or the survey.

    Replies: @Flip, @nobodyofnowhere, @BB753, @Half Canadian, @Anonymous, @kaganovitch

    Turing?

  138. @Bill Jones
    From the department of You Couldn't Make This Sit Up.
    https://dailycaller.com/2019/06/22/mom-protest-drag-queen-story-hour-sniper/

    Replies: @Grace Jones

    “Drag queens act like clowns as if that’s the way women act. It is used to make fun of the way women act,” she said.

    This is true.

  139. Homosexuals are groomed to be that way, not born to be that way.

    It is just a sexual lifestyle choice.

  140. @Lot
    @Art Deco

    I think this is part of it, but another large part is multicausal/rare random mutation as with schizophrenia.

    I don’t find Cochran’s germ theory convincing. We have exactly one example of a germ having complex behavioral effects in human beings, and its effects are subtle (e.g. slightly worse driving) and nothing as dramatic, complicated or consistent as completely inverting sexual desire.

    Homosexuality has two distinct parts: removing desire for one sex and creating it for another. Otherwise you’d have a asexual or bisexual.

    Replies: @Valentino, @Anon, @gcochran

    tertiary syphilis affects your driving? Or was that rabies?

    • Replies: @Lot
    @gcochran

    http://drugdiscoveryopinion.com/2009/06/toxoplasmosis-linked-to-traffic-accidents/

    Replies: @gcochran

  141. @Anon
    @Lot


    I think this is part of it, but another large part is multicausal/rare random mutation as with schizophrenia.
     
    Schizophrenia is not caused by random mutations, but has been pinned down in GWAS studies. Plomin talks about it in his book, chapter 6, "Generalist Genes." Schizophrenia is in a cluster of mental ilnesses that are almost indistinguishable from each other at the genetic level, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, and major depression (which is a completely different condition than depression itself, which is clustered with anxiety disorders).

    Because genetics has an aroma of badthink in academia, and because psychologists are siloed away from biology research, this stuff has not filtered down into standard psychological knowledge and practice, but the research is quite solid.

    Replies: @gcochran

    Random mutations are almost certainly a big part of it, but GWAS does not detect them. The bit about the GWAS risk genes for schiz also being risk genes for other mental illnesses is correct and interesting. In terms of causation, at least, our categorization of mental illness was not right.

  142. @nobodyofnowhere
    @Lot

    Turing didn't come to mind?

    Replies: @Lot

    Bright guy who did good work but whose importance has been exaggerated.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    @Lot

    Bright guy who did good work but whose importance has been exaggerated because he was gay.

    FIFY.

  143. @gcochran
    @Lot

    tertiary syphilis affects your driving? Or was that rabies?

    Replies: @Lot

    • Replies: @gcochran
    @Lot

    That was sarcasm: rabies affects behavior, so does syphilis. Far more solidly established than toxo effect in humans.

    And many interesting examples are known in other species.

    Replies: @Lot

  144. @adreadline
    Where is G. Cochran when you need him?

    Also, do not believe Athenian propaganda. Spartans were very macho.

    Replies: @gcochran

    When my beard has grown around the table three times, I will awaken.

  145. @Lot
    @gcochran

    http://drugdiscoveryopinion.com/2009/06/toxoplasmosis-linked-to-traffic-accidents/

    Replies: @gcochran

    That was sarcasm: rabies affects behavior, so does syphilis. Far more solidly established than toxo effect in humans.

    And many interesting examples are known in other species.

    • Replies: @Lot
    @gcochran

    And the chicken pox virus makes you scratch your skin.

    But the hypothetical gay virus destroys sexual attraction to women and replaces it with sexual attraction to men. Or less often only the latter effect.

    It also sometimes but not always makes men’s aesthetic, vocational and recreational interests more like women’s.

    What germ is known to do anything remotely like that, while not otherwise having a strong ill effect?

    Replies: @e, @TWS

  146. Lot says:
    @gcochran
    @Lot

    That was sarcasm: rabies affects behavior, so does syphilis. Far more solidly established than toxo effect in humans.

    And many interesting examples are known in other species.

    Replies: @Lot

    And the chicken pox virus makes you scratch your skin.

    But the hypothetical gay virus destroys sexual attraction to women and replaces it with sexual attraction to men. Or less often only the latter effect.

    It also sometimes but not always makes men’s aesthetic, vocational and recreational interests more like women’s.

    What germ is known to do anything remotely like that, while not otherwise having a strong ill effect?

    • Replies: @e
    @Lot

    Rodents are hardwired to fear and avoid cats, yet T. gondii makes them attracted to cat urine.

    Replies: @Lot

    , @TWS
    @Lot

    Pay attention it's a virus of the mother

  147. @Lot
    @gcochran

    And the chicken pox virus makes you scratch your skin.

    But the hypothetical gay virus destroys sexual attraction to women and replaces it with sexual attraction to men. Or less often only the latter effect.

    It also sometimes but not always makes men’s aesthetic, vocational and recreational interests more like women’s.

    What germ is known to do anything remotely like that, while not otherwise having a strong ill effect?

    Replies: @e, @TWS

    Rodents are hardwired to fear and avoid cats, yet T. gondii makes them attracted to cat urine.

    • Replies: @Lot
    @e

    That is a single example from a different species.

    No examples of anything remotely like this in human beings. And we’ve existed for a much shorter time than rats or rat-like species.

    Also, that isn’t how GC thinks the gay germ works (making someone gay for the purpose of spreading it more widely). If it did, there’s a serious chicken and egg problem: it makes you gay to infect gays... who are already infected. GC thinks it is more a side effect.

    Also, isn’t the obvious strategy for a germ to spread by altering human sexual desire to make a woman an insatiable nymphomaniac? That’s a much less dramatic change than completely altering what a human being is attracted to. Yet, no germ has adapted this strategy. Moreover, making a man bisexual, and attracted to ugly women, as well as men, is better still.

  148. Lot says:
    @e
    @Lot

    Rodents are hardwired to fear and avoid cats, yet T. gondii makes them attracted to cat urine.

    Replies: @Lot

    That is a single example from a different species.

    No examples of anything remotely like this in human beings. And we’ve existed for a much shorter time than rats or rat-like species.

    Also, that isn’t how GC thinks the gay germ works (making someone gay for the purpose of spreading it more widely). If it did, there’s a serious chicken and egg problem: it makes you gay to infect gays… who are already infected. GC thinks it is more a side effect.

    Also, isn’t the obvious strategy for a germ to spread by altering human sexual desire to make a woman an insatiable nymphomaniac? That’s a much less dramatic change than completely altering what a human being is attracted to. Yet, no germ has adapted this strategy. Moreover, making a man bisexual, and attracted to ugly women, as well as men, is better still.

  149. @Dave from Oz
    @wow


    Male homosexuality is caused by an unknown in utero virus or a virus picked up during male adolescence.
     
    I was noticing tits even before adolescence, I have been straight all my life. Many gay men report feeling gay from early boyhood. Hopefully, this is just trolling because it is flat-out wrong.

    Replies: @Peripatetic Commenter, @Days of Broken Arrows, @danand, @TWS

    Dave,

    “I was noticing tits even before adolescence, I have been straight all my life. Many gay men report feeling gay from early boyhood. Hopefully, this is just trolling because it is flat-out wrong.”

    My experience, and those of friends, workmates, & acquaintances, are all very similar to yours. Unless one of those on the non-sexual/bi spectrum, they have said they have known from an early (prepubescent) age their “orientation”. Typically for a “straight” young boy it’s a friends mom or teacher that captures your attention: dreams ensue. It’s pretty simple for the great majority of men; which gender do you desire to see naked?

    I know it’s just anecdotal; but I’ll share anyway. Way back around 1980 I picked up an aunt’s soon to be 2nd husband from the Alameda Navy dock. The soon to be uncle gave me a short tour around the ship he was stationed on, and off we went in my fathers ’72 Pinto wagon. He was a very pleasant, straight forward guy. But within minutes of meeting him I began to wonder why my aunt was going to marry a “gay” guy? It wasn’t anything he was saying, he wasn’t hitting on me: it was just obvious, plain as day to me. I never got another chance to speak directly with him again, and my sister was the only person I shared the observation with.

    Twenty years later I went to a reunion were I met my two grown cousins from that union at a wedding. One of the two boys was/is an “out” gay. The wedding was my cousin Jenny’s, from the same aunts 1st marriage. I had met the groom a few days prior to the wedding. Again a pleasant man, but again struck me right away as gay. Of that union there are two daughters, one of whom is an “out” lesbian.

    What are the odds, I surely don’t know; but I’d bet bottom dollar 23&me will have a reasonable estimate on that soon.

    BTW – I know I’m sick, but did anyone else see that pic of Kellyanne Conway with her tongue out on Drudge and feel a tinge?

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    @danand

    Thing is, the people (Mom and Dad) from whom we get our nature (DNA) are also the ones from whom we get the vast majority of our nurture. I think this is relevant both to the race/IQ question and the "Why are gays gay?" question.

  150. @Colin Wright
    'I’ve read that the lower ones may not be quite as strictly heritable so much as they set you up in a way that if various post-genomic, post-mitosis mutations or “Waddington valley” chances occur during fetal development or very early childhood you veer into being gay, or left handed.'

    I think a couple of points are worth making here. First, the incidence of homosexuality varies widely among different cultures, classes, and places. It seems to be viewed with blank horror in Eastern Europe and subsaharan Africa, accepted as fairly ordinary in Japan. Among upper-class Englishmen of the First World War generation, it seems to have reached the point where some figures started out as practicing homosexuals -- only to eventually realize they were heterosexual after all.

    Second, sexual desire is at least partially culturally determined. A lot of cultures like big, fat women -- so big and fat you or I would genuinely find them unattractive. Chinese used to have a foot fetish -- and I don't doubt that your average Chinese gentleman of the seventeenth century genuinely found small feet extremely erotic. Large breasts were and remain a real key in the West -- they're distained in other cultures.

    And so on. The point is that while some large chunk of the population may be potentially gay, what proportion actually wind up feeling that they are is probably culturally determined. You could raise me elsewhere and I would genuinely want a four-hundred pounder for a wife. I'd be completely sincere in that. You can raise me here, and I really don't. Really. No foolin.'

    Replies: @LondonBob

    Have you any evidence for this pandemic of homosexuality amongst upper Englishmen in WWI? Sure some upper class fags could live openly due to their social status but I have no idea what you are talking about. Same sex relations are as prevelant in Eastern Europe as Western Europe and Sub Saharan Africans are on the down low more than anyone else, just it isn’t broadcast publicly. I would expect the prevalence of homosexuality, whether open or not, to be largely similar.

    I expect it homosexuality is hard wired in people, perhaps a small number are inclined that way and can be persuaded. My revulsion of homosexuals certainly feels hard wired.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/8878301/Rugby-player-who-had-stroke-woke-up-gay-and-became-hairdresser.html

  151. @Stogumber
    When I was young, it was fashionable to explain male homosexuality by genetics. Then it became unpopular - and now it is on the rise again, above all in LGBTQ circles.

    My objection: Every little boy is excited by being around a strapping young male. Only the more masculine boys try to imitate him - and the less masculine boys fail to imitate them and content themselves with using him as masturbation fantasies. And there is nothing more reinforcing (in the sense of classical behaviourism) than an orgasm.

    So the genetical difference is about masculinity/effeteness, whereas the rest (sexual orientation) can be explained merely by behaviourism.

    Replies: @BB753, @guest, @Cloudbuster, @LondonBob

    Neither of the two Michael Jackson victims were gay, they are both married with children. I would say they were hard wired to heterosexuality despite the sexual enjoyment they say they received from Jackson as children. I am really not aware of anyone being cured of homosexuality nor am I aware of homos saying they chose to be gay.

    • Replies: @Bill Jones
    @LondonBob

    Yet NY's De Blasio's wife was cured of the rug munching.

  152. @Altai

    It could also revise queer folks’ relationship to our ancestry. Like most gay men, I was born to straight parents, and (barring the sort of revelation that would upend a family reunion) my grandparents were just as straight. I can’t trace my queerness back along my family tree in the same way I can trace my blue eyes, my small but sturdy stature, or my ancestors’ immigration from the Low Countries to the colony of Pennsylvania to freely practice a fringe take on Protestantism. But the genes that help make me gay form another kind of family tree, intertwined with and beyond the one recorded in the family Bible. The branches of that tree are a biological link from me to my queer chosen family, and to queer historical figures who have shaped the world we live in today, from Harvey Milk to Sappho.
     
    The most depressing neologism of the 2010s must be 'chosen family', followed by 'work family'. Our ancestors had far richer, more meaningful lives that being able to look up almost any piece of information ever written shockingly doesn't seem to even barely make up for anymore.

    I do like how he brags about his 'blue eyes' and 'sturdy stature'. But it's okay because he reminds us of his ancestors’ immigration from the Low Countries to the colony of Pennsylvania to freely practice a fringe take on Protestantism. He's only descended from oldest surviving white colonists, but the Dutch ones not some WASP! They were religious asylum seekers! Flight from white: Pennsylvania Dutch edition!

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Jonathan Mason

    The most depressing neologism of the 2010s must be ‘chosen family’,

    Neologism?

    Mark 3:31-35 31

    Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, “Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.” “Who are my mother and my brothers?” he asked. Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother.

  153. @Dave from Oz
    @wow


    Male homosexuality is caused by an unknown in utero virus or a virus picked up during male adolescence.
     
    I was noticing tits even before adolescence, I have been straight all my life. Many gay men report feeling gay from early boyhood. Hopefully, this is just trolling because it is flat-out wrong.

    Replies: @Peripatetic Commenter, @Days of Broken Arrows, @danand, @TWS

    The incidence presents like a virus and the numbers back it. Wouldn’t surprise me at all.

  154. @Lot
    @gcochran

    And the chicken pox virus makes you scratch your skin.

    But the hypothetical gay virus destroys sexual attraction to women and replaces it with sexual attraction to men. Or less often only the latter effect.

    It also sometimes but not always makes men’s aesthetic, vocational and recreational interests more like women’s.

    What germ is known to do anything remotely like that, while not otherwise having a strong ill effect?

    Replies: @e, @TWS

    Pay attention it’s a virus of the mother

  155. @DaKine
    Homosexuality is the result of nutritional deficiencies on the part of the parents during conception and gestation... and of course mostly the mother.

    Dr Pottenger induced homosexuality in the offspring of poorly fed cats.

    Have we seen a rise in homosexuality in "decadent eras"? That may not be entirely a moral phenomenon but also a typical degradation of diet of those eras, leading to nutritional degeneration.


    https://www.scribd.com/document/60700924/Pottenger-Cat-Study

    Also see the magnum opus of Dr. Price:

    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/544354.Nutrition_and_Physical_Degeneration

    Replies: @Ghost of Bull Moose

    Soy milk.

  156. @Lot
    @nobodyofnowhere

    Bright guy who did good work but whose importance has been exaggerated.

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob

    Bright guy who did good work but whose importance has been exaggerated because he was gay.

    FIFY.

  157. @Jus' Sayin'...
    @Days of Broken Arrows

    There's a lot going on in this story that the MSM is carefully going to ignore. As CZZ points out this is a minority-majority town, with Hispanics dominating demographically. Only WaPo reported the race of the Negro thug. But https://www.nj.com/news/2019/06/nj-mom-beaten-unconscious-by-school-bully-who-threatened-her-son-in-hate-crime-lawyer-says.html provides many illuminating other details.

    Now let's break the story down: A Hispanic kid in a public school, which is apparently for more academically gifted students (Passaic Gifted and Talented Academy School No. 20), is bullied by three student thugs, at least one of whom is Negro. (I suspect they all are. They tend to run and attack in packs.)

    The bullied Hispanic student obtains no satisfaction from school authorities, who sequestered HIM for the day and failed to report the bullying to anyone. (I'd bet money the school authorities are Negroes.)

    He tells his mother who confronts school officials (probably Negro). When the mother confronts them, their response is that the Negro bully and his (more than likely Negro) accomplices “had just as much right to an education as her [Hispanic] son”.

    The Negro bully then viciously assaults the Hispanic mother, presumably after learning somehow from (probably Negro) school staff, that both her son and she have complained.

    At this point the boy’s Hispanic father, Alfonso Vasquez, contacts the Hispanic Mayor of Passaic, Hector Lora, and the Negro bully is finally suspended.

    There's a lot of interesting data there on how vibrant diversity works in practice.

    I'd also be willing to hazard money that the test scores and academic performance of the Negro thug and his pack mates were more than likely sub-par verging on retarded.

    This is the USA's vibrant future in microcosm.

    Replies: @Hibernian

    Historically Hispanic culture wasn’t one where women took the lead in kicking ass and taking names. Shame on you, Alfonso Vasquez.

  158. @danand
    @Dave from Oz

    Dave,


    "I was noticing tits even before adolescence, I have been straight all my life. Many gay men report feeling gay from early boyhood. Hopefully, this is just trolling because it is flat-out wrong."
     
    My experience, and those of friends, workmates, & acquaintances, are all very similar to yours. Unless one of those on the non-sexual/bi spectrum, they have said they have known from an early (prepubescent) age their "orientation". Typically for a "straight" young boy it's a friends mom or teacher that captures your attention: dreams ensue. It's pretty simple for the great majority of men; which gender do you desire to see naked?

    I know it's just anecdotal; but I'll share anyway. Way back around 1980 I picked up an aunt's soon to be 2nd husband from the Alameda Navy dock. The soon to be uncle gave me a short tour around the ship he was stationed on, and off we went in my fathers '72 Pinto wagon. He was a very pleasant, straight forward guy. But within minutes of meeting him I began to wonder why my aunt was going to marry a "gay" guy? It wasn't anything he was saying, he wasn't hitting on me: it was just obvious, plain as day to me. I never got another chance to speak directly with him again, and my sister was the only person I shared the observation with.

    Twenty years later I went to a reunion were I met my two grown cousins from that union at a wedding. One of the two boys was/is an "out" gay. The wedding was my cousin Jenny's, from the same aunts 1st marriage. I had met the groom a few days prior to the wedding. Again a pleasant man, but again struck me right away as gay. Of that union there are two daughters, one of whom is an "out" lesbian.

    What are the odds, I surely don't know; but I'd bet bottom dollar 23&me will have a reasonable estimate on that soon.

    BTW - I know I'm sick, but did anyone else see that pic of Kellyanne Conway with her tongue out on Drudge and feel a tinge?

    https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48136229186_0cea60c081_m.jpg

    Replies: @Hibernian

    Thing is, the people (Mom and Dad) from whom we get our nature (DNA) are also the ones from whom we get the vast majority of our nurture. I think this is relevant both to the race/IQ question and the “Why are gays gay?” question.

  159. It will be interesting what other traits male homosexuality’s gene patterns will be similar to.

    This? Why I could make a hat, or a brooch, a pterodactyl.

  160. I suspect that there are genetic factors that make one prone to same sex attraction but there are also environment factors, which trigger it.

  161. @LondonBob
    @Stogumber

    Neither of the two Michael Jackson victims were gay, they are both married with children. I would say they were hard wired to heterosexuality despite the sexual enjoyment they say they received from Jackson as children. I am really not aware of anyone being cured of homosexuality nor am I aware of homos saying they chose to be gay.

    Replies: @Bill Jones

    Yet NY’s De Blasio’s wife was cured of the rug munching.

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