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If you are interested in the Derek Chauvin trial, from anosognosic:

Why the police are innocent in George Floyd’s death

This post will lay out the case that George Floyd died of a drug overdose and the police acted largely correctly in the encounter, and that, consequently, the establishment media have been lying to you for the better part of a year.

I don’t know much about law or medicine, but, for whatever it’s worth, I’m guessing the case will depend upon:

  • How much sheer racial bias, fear of violent retribution against jurors, and fear of riots is at work.
  • Upon whom the burden of proof winds up lying. The facts being what they are, so far as what we know so far, it would be hard in a fair trial for the prosecution to meet the normal burden of proof of 2nd degree murder “beyond a reasonable doubt.” But the state may be able to evade that basic premise of Anglo-American law and turn the burden of proof around.
 
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  1. Anonymous[739] • Disclaimer says:

    • Agree: Nicholas Stix
  2. the establishment media have been lying to you for the better part of a year.

    Also, the better part of a century, if not longer.

  3. For day-to-day coverage of the Chauvin trial, Power Line is excellent.

    Their report for Day 2 of the trial is here: LINK

    • Thanks: vhrm, Dieter Kief, Seneca44
    • Replies: @Barnard
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    Power Line does well on covering Minneapolis cases like this, their coverage of the Noor trial was also excellent. Based on Scott Johnson's reporting, the jury selection process has been terrible for the defense. Each side gets a limited number of dismissals and the defense has had almost no success getting people who are barely stopping short of saying they can't wait to convict Chauvin dismissed for cause. On the first day, the judge wouldn't even dismiss a woman who it was not clear was fluent in English for cause. The prosecution is striking anyone who indicates they have any unapproved knowledge about the case or is it all critical of the rioting that happened afterward. I was expecting a hung jury going into this, but unless the jury selection process improves, it isn't looking good for the defense.

  4. It will be grim fun once again watching the media Karens tiptoe around the widely held but only euphemistically expressed assumption that cities must “brace” for serious “unrest” should any verdict not be draconian enough.

    Hell, there might be riots even with a full conviction, much like sports fans counter-intuitively burning and smashing stuff because their team won the championship.

  5. You are correct. The police are innocent, but it’s very hard to say how much that really matters.

  6. Not going well for Chauvin – they have already seated several blacks on the jury even though the city is mostly white. This is a race case and the only thing that matters is the race of the jury. We saw in the OJ case that in race cases evidence is irrelevant. The best Chauvin can hope for now is a hung jury.

    • Agree: Joseph Doaks
    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
    @Jack D

    Which means the Right is wasting its precious time and energy on this case against one man, in a country of millions, for a right wing agenda that is lost on the majority of the world's inhabitants.


    American police are some of the most hated creatures on the planet right now, and Derek Chauvin is just one schmuck. One faceless, hapless schmuck in a bucket of millions. Why not just let it fade in to the dark like Trayvon Martin slowly did, and devote our time and energy (which are truly precious and finite) to more strategical, winnable activities? Even if Chauvin prevails, it's just gonna make society hate him and the Right even more. The public wants Chauvin to die and nothing we say can ever change that.

    Seeing the right get sucked in to these drama episodes for years on end is sad. Better to just let Derek get the rope (or not) and focus on more pressing issues than whatever murder trials the media decides to blow up for the year. Things like the persistently low (less than 10) total fertility rate, which the government and banks want solved immediately.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Johann Ricke, @Anon, @njguy73, @Redneck farmer, @vhrm, @anon, @Hippopotamusdrome, @Not Only Wrathful, @TWS

    , @Anonymous
    @Jack D

    Can Chauvin and his lawyer opt for a judge trial instead? Maybe a three-judge panel? Even a liberal judge might be preferable if the defense case is strong, no?

    Replies: @anon, @Chris Renner, @Deep Anonymous

    , @Gordo
    @Jack D


    This is a race case and the only thing that matters is the race of the jury.
     
    There should be a Marcia Clark topic for law students on jury selection, immortality.
    , @Redman
    @Jack D

    I tried a civil case in St. Paul in 2008. The jury was one of the best and most educated I’d ever seen for a 2-3 week trial.

    Not sure if it’s the same in a Minneapolis criminal case.

    , @Paperback Writer
    @Jack D

    You're right, but do you remember the Amadou Diallo case? They moved it upstate to Buffalo. Jury forewoman was black, originally from the Bronx. It looked terrible for the cops. Jury acquitted. Someone shoved a mic into the forewoman's face after the trial and asked her about people's feelz.

    She said, "tough." Gutsy broad.

    I remember grousing & bitching but no rioting.

    But that was then and this is now. Chauvin's dead meat.

    , @Art Deco
    @Jack D

    they have already seated several blacks on the jury

    They've seated one. The problem has been that the judge refuses to allow the defense any strikes for cause. Also, to date, those seated skew young to an astounding degree - one of six has been over the median age of the adult population, one at about the median. The prosecution has been shameless in attempting to get blatantly biased people seated.

  7. The defense will get a forensic pathologist expert witness, who will say the cause of death was opioid overdose. Voir dire will be gnarly because race is all that matters in a jury trial, not the truth.

    Melvin Belli used to say: “No Chinaman on the jury.” I’m surprised he is not cancelled, There are probably a lot of Hmong in the jury pool. I’m hoping the judge gives a directed verdict; but alas, I heard on National People’s Radio this morning that the judge is a huge lefty.

    Civilly, the plaintiffs’ bar against the cops uses forensic pathologists to say the drugs are not the cause of death, and the smothering or hobbling or positional asphyxiation is what killed him. The autopsy report will determine the outcome.

    • Replies: @vhrm
    @petit bourgeois


    Civilly, the plaintiffs’ bar against the cops uses forensic pathologists to say the drugs are not the cause of death, and the smothering or hobbling or positional asphyxiation is what killed him. The autopsy report will determine the outcome.
     
    The autopsy report is inconclusive. Basically there's nothing in there that can conclusively say the cops caused the death. From all the reporting and analysis it appears it's impossible to tell with any level of confidence just how much the fentanyl and his fluid filled lungs and enlarged heart contributed to his death. It could be 1%, 10% or 90%...
    If there's some model or paper or study that can say with any confidence nobody's mentioned it AFAIK.


    That said i'm guessing the city will settle the civil suit for some 7 or 8 figure amount if it can and not even have that trial.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @Abolish_public_education

    , @anonymous
    @petit bourgeois


    Civilly, the plaintiffs’ bar against the cops uses forensic pathologists to say the drugs are not the cause of death, and the smothering or hobbling or positional asphyxiation is what killed him. The autopsy report will determine the outcome.
     
    The police did nothing wrong though.

    If a criminal dies of a heart attack due to anxiousness over being arrested and charged with a crime, that isn’t murder. It isn’t the fault of the police, even if the fact of the arrest was a “but for”cause of death.

    “If he hadn’t of been arrested, he wouldn’t have felt anxious. If he hadn’t felt anxious, he wouldn’t have had the heart attack. Therefore, the police murdered him.” Doesn’t work like that.

    , @Polistra
    @petit bourgeois


    The autopsy report will determine the outcome.
     
    The report will certainly influence the outcome, but its interpretation will be contingent upon expert testimony and that will influence the outcome even more.
    , @Art Deco
    @petit bourgeois

    The defense will get a forensic pathologist expert witness, who will say the cause of death was opioid overdose. Voir dire will be gnarly because race is all that matters in a jury trial, not the truth.

    His trachea and his neck muscles were uninjured.

    I don't think even Michael Baden contended that positional asphyxia caused his death. The argument was that Chauvin's knee constricted the carotid artery. Problem, you've got two carotid arteries.

  8. 1) Contra the video most people have seen, the bodycam footage shows the police acting very professionally.

    2) The tactics used by the cops were accepted practice by the Minneapolis PD, whose chief is a black man.

    3) Floyd’s statement that he couldn’t breath began before they had him on the ground. The officers had called and were waiting for an ambulance. It ain’t their fault that the ambulance took so damn long to get there.

    4) The tox screen shows he had probably lethal levels of illegal narcotics in his system. This is what’s called reasonable doubt – a solid explanation for his death that had nothing to do with the actions of the officers.

    Derek Chauvin should almost certainly be acquitted, unless they’ve rigged the outcome. The problem is what happens if/when he is acquitted. Democrats aren’t prepared for the hell that will break loose when that happens. My guess is they will use the verdict as yet more evidence that we need “racial reconciliation.” Be prepared for an even bigger push for quotas, reparations, and God only knows what else to make up for this supposed injustice. The question is how whites and Republicans respond: yet another surrender to the mob, or will more of us finally and emphatically call them on their bullshit?

    • Replies: @anonymous
    @Wilkey


    3) Floyd’s statement that he couldn’t breath began before they had him on the ground.
     
    If Floyd was talking—and he did a lot of talking—he was breathing. That is the essential fact here holds true whether he was standing up or lying down.

    Replies: @Redman

    , @J.Ross
    @Wilkey

    Accept that the criminal justice system doesn't exist any more.

    , @Jack D
    @Wilkey

    Very little chance of an outright acquittal. Hopefully a hung jury will not be enough to provoke rioting. They retry him a couple of more times and give up because they can never get a unanimous verdict to convict and by his 3rd trial people will have lost interest. That's the best possible outcome.

    2nd best is that he's convicted of some lesser offense. Does a couple of years and then is quietly released on parole. If you look at the greatest good for the greatest # of people, it's better for Chauvin to do a couple of years than for half of America to burn again and numerous people to die in the rioting. It sucks for Chauvin but sometimes you gotta take one for the team. The shopkeepers of MN should take up a collection for Chauvin because it would be cheaper to pay him to sit in prison than for every retail premises to be looted.

    TBH, whether or not Floyd ODed, Chauvin is guilty of SOMETHING. Being stubborn and stupid at the very least. Even if the primary cause of death was the Fentanyl, keeping Floyd in that position for so long didn't help. I don't care what his training said, at some point you have to adjust to the situation and not just keep doing the same thing. Yes at the beginning Floyd is talking up a storm and clearly getting air. But at some point he blacks out and Chauvin still doesn't move a muscle. I'm guessing that being heckled by the crowd didn't help - he didn't want to back down and lose face. Pride cometh before the fall.

    BTW, the evidence of overdose is very marginal. Addicts like Floyd develop tolerance to opiates so that a dose that would kill a horse just gives them a pleasant buzz.

    Replies: @Inquiring Mind, @Buffalo Joe, @Jim Christian, @AnotherDad, @AnotherDad, @Art Deco, @anon

    , @Steve from Detroit
    @Wilkey

    Democrats aren’t prepared for the hell that will break loose when that happens.

    I think they are not only prepared, they desire it. Anything other than a murder verdict, and there will be rioting. Frankly, even with a murder verdict, the chance at rioting is 50/50.

    Democrats don't want justice or a fair trial. They want mayhem, and anything other than a murder verdict will bring the most mayhem.

  9. @Jack D
    Not going well for Chauvin - they have already seated several blacks on the jury even though the city is mostly white. This is a race case and the only thing that matters is the race of the jury. We saw in the OJ case that in race cases evidence is irrelevant. The best Chauvin can hope for now is a hung jury.

    Replies: @JohnPlywood, @Anonymous, @Gordo, @Redman, @Paperback Writer, @Art Deco

    Which means the Right is wasting its precious time and energy on this case against one man, in a country of millions, for a right wing agenda that is lost on the majority of the world’s inhabitants.

    American police are some of the most hated creatures on the planet right now, and Derek Chauvin is just one schmuck. One faceless, hapless schmuck in a bucket of millions. Why not just let it fade in to the dark like Trayvon Martin slowly did, and devote our time and energy (which are truly precious and finite) to more strategical, winnable activities? Even if Chauvin prevails, it’s just gonna make society hate him and the Right even more. The public wants Chauvin to die and nothing we say can ever change that.

    Seeing the right get sucked in to these drama episodes for years on end is sad. Better to just let Derek get the rope (or not) and focus on more pressing issues than whatever murder trials the media decides to blow up for the year. Things like the persistently low (less than 10) total fertility rate, which the government and banks want solved immediately.

    • Disagree: Gordo, Catdog
    • Troll: JimDandy, TWS, Joseph Doaks
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @JohnPlywood

    "Why not just let it fade in to the dark like Trayvon Martin slowly did,"

    That's funny. Do you have any other side-splitters?

    , @Johann Ricke
    @JohnPlywood


    The public wants Chauvin to die and nothing we say can ever change that.
     
    Who's we, paleface?
    , @Anon
    @JohnPlywood


    Seeing the right get sucked in to these drama episodes for years on end is sad.
     
    Leave no man behind.

    Replies: @JohnPlywood

    , @njguy73
    @JohnPlywood

    "Fade into the dark like Trayvon Martin"

    Or fade into the dark like Emmett Till. Or the Scottsboro Boys. Or the Central Park Five. Or Rodney King. Or Eric Garner.

    All faded into the dark.

    Must be nice to live in your world.

    Replies: @JohnPlywood

    , @Redneck farmer
    @JohnPlywood

    The "American" mob is grossly overdue for "a whiff of grape".

    , @vhrm
    @JohnPlywood

    False prosecutions, let alone convictions are pretty high up there on the societal/governmental evil scale from my pov.

    And it's a rather slippery slope too..


    It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone%27s_ratio

     

    Replies: @JohnPlywood

    , @anon
    @JohnPlywood

    •Dolt

    , @Hippopotamusdrome
    @JohnPlywood



    for a right wing agenda that is lost on the majority of the world’s inhabitants

     

    You are aware of what policing is like in the rest of the World? What would police in Saudi Arabia, India, or China do to a counterfeiter who is high as a kite and back-talks?

    China Sentences Man to Death for Trafficking Fentanyl to the U.S.

    Replies: @Anon

    , @Not Only Wrathful
    @JohnPlywood

    No, Chauvin's pain, as he is destroyed as a person, purely to satiate progressive blood lust, should be shot, like a burning arrow, back into the heart of every person who is exalting in his suffering.

    , @TWS
    @JohnPlywood

    Nobody. Not one person who reads this blog believes you are a man of the right.

    I am certain that you are likely not a man at all. Oh, I have little doubt you walk on two legs, but I have seen trained dogs and bears even horses do as much. I'm certain you can speak or at least use a key board. Again, I've witnessed birds who could mimic the sounds of any creature you can name.

    Manhood requires character, a spine and soul. You are as spineless as tofu and as for your soul you cannot possess what you have discarded or sold.

    Replies: @JohnPlywood

  10. How much sheer racial bias, fear of violent retribution against jurors, and fear of riots is at work.

    • Replies: @AndrewR
    @clifford brown

    Eh he said Floyd was "killed." Screw him.

  11. @JohnPlywood
    @Jack D

    Which means the Right is wasting its precious time and energy on this case against one man, in a country of millions, for a right wing agenda that is lost on the majority of the world's inhabitants.


    American police are some of the most hated creatures on the planet right now, and Derek Chauvin is just one schmuck. One faceless, hapless schmuck in a bucket of millions. Why not just let it fade in to the dark like Trayvon Martin slowly did, and devote our time and energy (which are truly precious and finite) to more strategical, winnable activities? Even if Chauvin prevails, it's just gonna make society hate him and the Right even more. The public wants Chauvin to die and nothing we say can ever change that.

    Seeing the right get sucked in to these drama episodes for years on end is sad. Better to just let Derek get the rope (or not) and focus on more pressing issues than whatever murder trials the media decides to blow up for the year. Things like the persistently low (less than 10) total fertility rate, which the government and banks want solved immediately.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Johann Ricke, @Anon, @njguy73, @Redneck farmer, @vhrm, @anon, @Hippopotamusdrome, @Not Only Wrathful, @TWS

    “Why not just let it fade in to the dark like Trayvon Martin slowly did,”

    That’s funny. Do you have any other side-splitters?

  12. I heard the prosecution was trying to reactivate a 3rd-degree murder option for the jury. Doesn’t that indicate at least some lack of confidence in their own case?

    • Agree: Redman, Joseph Doaks
    • Replies: @Sean
    @Known Fact

    Chauvin scrambled to get a deal while it was still local (rather than state) officials who were handling his prosecution; he was willing to plead guilty and do ten years in prison, with immunity from a follow on Civil Rights case. That was considered much too lenient by Barr who vetoed it. Even were he to be acquited, they will just him him with a Civil Rights case and he can get 480 months on that. He has no chance of ever getting out, and he is doubtless being held on Maxwell style micromanaging suicide watch. After the public get their show of him getting convicted and sentenced, the suicide watch will be eventually be removed, and I think he will take the oppertunity to escape the only way left to him: by going out feet first.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @anonymous, @sayless

  13. Anonymous[120] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D
    Not going well for Chauvin - they have already seated several blacks on the jury even though the city is mostly white. This is a race case and the only thing that matters is the race of the jury. We saw in the OJ case that in race cases evidence is irrelevant. The best Chauvin can hope for now is a hung jury.

    Replies: @JohnPlywood, @Anonymous, @Gordo, @Redman, @Paperback Writer, @Art Deco

    Can Chauvin and his lawyer opt for a judge trial instead? Maybe a three-judge panel? Even a liberal judge might be preferable if the defense case is strong, no?

    • Replies: @anon
    @Anonymous


    Can Chauvin and his lawyer opt for a judge trial instead? Maybe a three-judge panel? Even a liberal judge might be preferable if the defense case is strong, no?
     
    Who is more likely to be intimidated by the media, the dominant ruling class narrative, and the mob:

    A publicly known judge who comes from the ruling class?

    Or an anonymous jury?
    , @Chris Renner
    @Anonymous


    Even a liberal judge might be preferable if the defense case is strong, no?
     
    In this case? Absolutely not. Jurors retain a faint hope of anonymity (and freedom from harassment or violence) if they acquit; judges don't have that.

    Replies: @Polistra

    , @Deep Anonymous
    @Anonymous

    According to the Minnesota Rules of Criminal Procedure, 26.01(2)(c), a defendant "must be
    permitted to waive a jury trial whenever the court determines" that his waiver is knowing and voluntary (always a due process requirement) and that "reason exists to believe that, because of the dissemination of potentially prejudicial material, the waiver must be granted to assure a fair trial."

    So it certainly appears that Chauvin could have insisted on a bench trial, but it gives the court some leeway to deny his request. In other jurisdictions, the rule differs. In federal court, for example, the Government must agree to permit a defendant to waive a jury trial. In contrast, in Maryland, a defendant has an absolute right to waive a jury trial, and, interestingly enough, the defendants in the Freddie Gray trials all did so and were acquitted by a very brave Black judge, Hon. Barry Williams, in Baltimore City.

  14. @JohnPlywood
    @Jack D

    Which means the Right is wasting its precious time and energy on this case against one man, in a country of millions, for a right wing agenda that is lost on the majority of the world's inhabitants.


    American police are some of the most hated creatures on the planet right now, and Derek Chauvin is just one schmuck. One faceless, hapless schmuck in a bucket of millions. Why not just let it fade in to the dark like Trayvon Martin slowly did, and devote our time and energy (which are truly precious and finite) to more strategical, winnable activities? Even if Chauvin prevails, it's just gonna make society hate him and the Right even more. The public wants Chauvin to die and nothing we say can ever change that.

    Seeing the right get sucked in to these drama episodes for years on end is sad. Better to just let Derek get the rope (or not) and focus on more pressing issues than whatever murder trials the media decides to blow up for the year. Things like the persistently low (less than 10) total fertility rate, which the government and banks want solved immediately.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Johann Ricke, @Anon, @njguy73, @Redneck farmer, @vhrm, @anon, @Hippopotamusdrome, @Not Only Wrathful, @TWS

    The public wants Chauvin to die and nothing we say can ever change that.

    Who’s we, paleface?

  15. anonymous[309] • Disclaimer says:
    @Wilkey
    1) Contra the video most people have seen, the bodycam footage shows the police acting very professionally.

    2) The tactics used by the cops were accepted practice by the Minneapolis PD, whose chief is a black man.

    3) Floyd's statement that he couldn't breath began before they had him on the ground. The officers had called and were waiting for an ambulance. It ain't their fault that the ambulance took so damn long to get there.

    4) The tox screen shows he had probably lethal levels of illegal narcotics in his system. This is what's called reasonable doubt - a solid explanation for his death that had nothing to do with the actions of the officers.

    Derek Chauvin should almost certainly be acquitted, unless they've rigged the outcome. The problem is what happens if/when he is acquitted. Democrats aren't prepared for the hell that will break loose when that happens. My guess is they will use the verdict as yet more evidence that we need "racial reconciliation." Be prepared for an even bigger push for quotas, reparations, and God only knows what else to make up for this supposed injustice. The question is how whites and Republicans respond: yet another surrender to the mob, or will more of us finally and emphatically call them on their bullshit?

    Replies: @anonymous, @J.Ross, @Jack D, @Steve from Detroit

    3) Floyd’s statement that he couldn’t breath began before they had him on the ground.

    If Floyd was talking—and he did a lot of talking—he was breathing. That is the essential fact here holds true whether he was standing up or lying down.

    • Replies: @Redman
    @anonymous

    Will the prosecution call the family’s hired gun medical examiner who gave his second opinion based on watching the video?

    He’s the same guy who was roundly booed by the MSM when he concluded Jeff Epstein didn’t hang himself. Funny how that works.

  16. Slam dunk, Chauvin is convicted on all counts. He’s White. He committed a crime of enforcing the law against a black man, and all black men are exempt and above the law. Just existing as a White man is a crime. So he’s going to be convicted.

    Really, what did anyone expect out of Civil Rights? White men will either be on top or on bottom. There is no middle ground. There is no “lets all get along.” There is no end to the war against White men until the last of us is dead. That’s just the way it is.

    All that being said, there will be riots and riots and get Whitey street restorative justice “adjustment” from well, now to forever. It will never stop. Any black person has the perfect right by LAW and CUSTOM to do whatever they want to you, in the name of Civil Rights, and you have no right or defense to resist. After all, its your fault White men that vibrant young youths of color beat elderly Asian people, sometimes to death.

    If you are White, your existence is a crime against nature: Martin Luther King said so. So does Obama. If you are a White man, well you are the epitome of evil, and again Martin Luther King said so, and so did Obama. And Oprah. And Charlize Theron. And Captain Marvel. And Princess Megan. And President Harris.

    As Machiavelli said, it is better to be feared than loved.

    • Replies: @Jim Christian
    @Whiskey

    They'll run through Whites stupid enough to get within 500 miles of blacks. If they come looking for more, they'll run into the Whites who fight back, in majority White regions. Let me know how that works out. blacks hate when you fight back. They'll lose all interest in the project at that point.

    , @kpkinsunnyphiladelphia
    @Whiskey


    Slam dunk, Chauvin is convicted on all counts.
     
    Correct. He must be sacrificed at the altar of St. George Floyd. Is there a betting market for an acquittal? Because if there is, the money line would be SO negative you might have to mortgage your house to jump in.

    Meanwhile, the noise you're hearing is Tom Wolfe banging on his coffin lid right now, desperate to get out so he can write this sucker up.

    There are 4 kinds of people, vis a vis the George Floyd saga.

    1. People who don't know anything about it.

    2. People who really believe Chauvin killed him.

    3. People who really know Chauvin didn't kill him, but want the guy convicted as a murderer for a range of reasons too numerous and typical to mention.

    4. People who also know Chauvin didn't kill him, and think this whole episode is both tragically and comically absurd, and would really want Tom to come back from the dead and write it up.
    , @TomSchmidt
    @Whiskey

    From Niccolo hissef:
    "If you cannot be both loved and feared, then it is better to be feared than loved." there follows a series of elaborations. Use the full quotation, please.

    Relevant to Chauvin: "No prince should mind being called cruel for keeping his subjects peaceful and loyal. Punishing a few, and thus averting disorder, is better than allowing troubles to develop that will hurt many. "

    This one is extremely relevant to Andrew Cuomo:
    "A prince must be careful not to make himself hated, even though he is feared; to do this, he must keep his hands off his subjects' property and their women. "

    "In conclusion, people love at their own wish, but fear at the prince's will, so a wise ruler will rely on what he can best control."
    Note: it would take 500 years for Robert Cialdini to write the book Influence, the Psychology of Persuasion, showing how people do not "love at their own wish," but are often seduced by the ministrations of sociopaths like the Prince.

    Replies: @obwandiyag

  17. Let’s say it’s established that Floyd popped a bunch of pills he had on him to destroy evidence and started overdosing right in front of Chauvin and then under Chauvin’s knee. Is the defense going to be that Chauvin was under no obligation to to have been aware what was going on right in front of him and to modify his restraint accordingly? Or is his argument that the neck restraint was proper and justified for someone he knew was rapidly losing health?

    Both those arguments would take some work to convince the man on the street.

    And, yes I know that’s not murder and that doctors and nurses, who together with the dastardly police are the great heroes and villains of 2020, kill hundreds of thousands through their negligence.

    • Replies: @gent
    @Guy De Champlagne

    The restraint had nothing to do with his overdosing. That hold is not capable of obstructing the airway.

    Replies: @Guy De Champlagne

  18. @clifford brown

    How much sheer racial bias, fear of violent retribution against jurors, and fear of riots is at work.
     
    https://twitter.com/BrianEntin/status/1369456310073298944?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

    Replies: @AndrewR

    Eh he said Floyd was “killed.” Screw him.

  19. @JohnPlywood
    @Jack D

    Which means the Right is wasting its precious time and energy on this case against one man, in a country of millions, for a right wing agenda that is lost on the majority of the world's inhabitants.


    American police are some of the most hated creatures on the planet right now, and Derek Chauvin is just one schmuck. One faceless, hapless schmuck in a bucket of millions. Why not just let it fade in to the dark like Trayvon Martin slowly did, and devote our time and energy (which are truly precious and finite) to more strategical, winnable activities? Even if Chauvin prevails, it's just gonna make society hate him and the Right even more. The public wants Chauvin to die and nothing we say can ever change that.

    Seeing the right get sucked in to these drama episodes for years on end is sad. Better to just let Derek get the rope (or not) and focus on more pressing issues than whatever murder trials the media decides to blow up for the year. Things like the persistently low (less than 10) total fertility rate, which the government and banks want solved immediately.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Johann Ricke, @Anon, @njguy73, @Redneck farmer, @vhrm, @anon, @Hippopotamusdrome, @Not Only Wrathful, @TWS

    Seeing the right get sucked in to these drama episodes for years on end is sad.

    Leave no man behind.

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
    @Anon

    I like people wbo weren't captured.

    Replies: @bomag

  20. @petit bourgeois
    The defense will get a forensic pathologist expert witness, who will say the cause of death was opioid overdose. Voir dire will be gnarly because race is all that matters in a jury trial, not the truth.

    Melvin Belli used to say: "No Chinaman on the jury." I'm surprised he is not cancelled, There are probably a lot of Hmong in the jury pool. I'm hoping the judge gives a directed verdict; but alas, I heard on National People's Radio this morning that the judge is a huge lefty.

    Civilly, the plaintiffs' bar against the cops uses forensic pathologists to say the drugs are not the cause of death, and the smothering or hobbling or positional asphyxiation is what killed him. The autopsy report will determine the outcome.

    Replies: @vhrm, @anonymous, @Polistra, @Art Deco

    Civilly, the plaintiffs’ bar against the cops uses forensic pathologists to say the drugs are not the cause of death, and the smothering or hobbling or positional asphyxiation is what killed him. The autopsy report will determine the outcome.

    The autopsy report is inconclusive. Basically there’s nothing in there that can conclusively say the cops caused the death. From all the reporting and analysis it appears it’s impossible to tell with any level of confidence just how much the fentanyl and his fluid filled lungs and enlarged heart contributed to his death. It could be 1%, 10% or 90%…
    If there’s some model or paper or study that can say with any confidence nobody’s mentioned it AFAIK.

    That said i’m guessing the city will settle the civil suit for some 7 or 8 figure amount if it can and not even have that trial.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @vhrm

    From all the reporting and analysis it appears it’s impossible to tell with any level of confidence just how much the fentanyl and his fluid filled lungs and enlarged heart contributed to his death. It could be 1%, 10% or 90%…

    Again, the level of fentanyl in his femoral blood was 11 nanograms per cc. That's a lethal dose and that's a middling figure for an overdose death.

    Replies: @vhrm

    , @Abolish_public_education
    @vhrm

    I am so sick and tired of tax (payer) funded, jackpot lawyer-verdicts.

    It seems like every major metropolitan area has some locally famous, toll-free, reachable, goto, huckster-lawyer ready to take taxpayers to the cleaners.

    Public school districts are teeming with six-figure, non-babysitting lawyers, yet when they regularly get hit with one of those Wrongful X lawsuits, they still speed dial the $1,000/hr, politically connected law firms they keep on retainer.

  21. anon[376] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    @Jack D

    Can Chauvin and his lawyer opt for a judge trial instead? Maybe a three-judge panel? Even a liberal judge might be preferable if the defense case is strong, no?

    Replies: @anon, @Chris Renner, @Deep Anonymous

    Can Chauvin and his lawyer opt for a judge trial instead? Maybe a three-judge panel? Even a liberal judge might be preferable if the defense case is strong, no?

    Who is more likely to be intimidated by the media, the dominant ruling class narrative, and the mob:

    A publicly known judge who comes from the ruling class?

    Or an anonymous jury?

    • Agree: Je Suis Omar Mateen
  22. @JohnPlywood
    @Jack D

    Which means the Right is wasting its precious time and energy on this case against one man, in a country of millions, for a right wing agenda that is lost on the majority of the world's inhabitants.


    American police are some of the most hated creatures on the planet right now, and Derek Chauvin is just one schmuck. One faceless, hapless schmuck in a bucket of millions. Why not just let it fade in to the dark like Trayvon Martin slowly did, and devote our time and energy (which are truly precious and finite) to more strategical, winnable activities? Even if Chauvin prevails, it's just gonna make society hate him and the Right even more. The public wants Chauvin to die and nothing we say can ever change that.

    Seeing the right get sucked in to these drama episodes for years on end is sad. Better to just let Derek get the rope (or not) and focus on more pressing issues than whatever murder trials the media decides to blow up for the year. Things like the persistently low (less than 10) total fertility rate, which the government and banks want solved immediately.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Johann Ricke, @Anon, @njguy73, @Redneck farmer, @vhrm, @anon, @Hippopotamusdrome, @Not Only Wrathful, @TWS

    “Fade into the dark like Trayvon Martin”

    Or fade into the dark like Emmett Till. Or the Scottsboro Boys. Or the Central Park Five. Or Rodney King. Or Eric Garner.

    All faded into the dark.

    Must be nice to live in your world.

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
    @njguy73

    I hardly ever hear any of these names in the lamestream media. It's like a once-every-couple-of-years, obscured under more relevant headlines type of thing. Maybe once per decade they get blown up again for a short while, usually whenever something big comes up (such as the fact that Emmett Till's accuser was an admitted liar, and that the Central Park 5 were innocent).

    The only people who think of these cases and still talk about them are fringe Leftist activists and their far-Right reflections in the mirror. Regular people have forgotten about them. The average guy on the street doesn't know who Emmet Till or the Central Park 5 were. I've never even heard of the Scottsboro boys before (don't want to know, either).

    Giving these cases attention doesn't seem to be helping the Right win anything tangible. Better to just let the Left fuel these flames with their own coal.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Hallie Scott Kline, @Paperback Writer, @AceDeuce, @Patrick McNally

  23. @JohnPlywood
    @Jack D

    Which means the Right is wasting its precious time and energy on this case against one man, in a country of millions, for a right wing agenda that is lost on the majority of the world's inhabitants.


    American police are some of the most hated creatures on the planet right now, and Derek Chauvin is just one schmuck. One faceless, hapless schmuck in a bucket of millions. Why not just let it fade in to the dark like Trayvon Martin slowly did, and devote our time and energy (which are truly precious and finite) to more strategical, winnable activities? Even if Chauvin prevails, it's just gonna make society hate him and the Right even more. The public wants Chauvin to die and nothing we say can ever change that.

    Seeing the right get sucked in to these drama episodes for years on end is sad. Better to just let Derek get the rope (or not) and focus on more pressing issues than whatever murder trials the media decides to blow up for the year. Things like the persistently low (less than 10) total fertility rate, which the government and banks want solved immediately.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Johann Ricke, @Anon, @njguy73, @Redneck farmer, @vhrm, @anon, @Hippopotamusdrome, @Not Only Wrathful, @TWS

    The “American” mob is grossly overdue for “a whiff of grape”.

    • Agree: black sea, Farenheit
  24. @JohnPlywood
    @Jack D

    Which means the Right is wasting its precious time and energy on this case against one man, in a country of millions, for a right wing agenda that is lost on the majority of the world's inhabitants.


    American police are some of the most hated creatures on the planet right now, and Derek Chauvin is just one schmuck. One faceless, hapless schmuck in a bucket of millions. Why not just let it fade in to the dark like Trayvon Martin slowly did, and devote our time and energy (which are truly precious and finite) to more strategical, winnable activities? Even if Chauvin prevails, it's just gonna make society hate him and the Right even more. The public wants Chauvin to die and nothing we say can ever change that.

    Seeing the right get sucked in to these drama episodes for years on end is sad. Better to just let Derek get the rope (or not) and focus on more pressing issues than whatever murder trials the media decides to blow up for the year. Things like the persistently low (less than 10) total fertility rate, which the government and banks want solved immediately.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Johann Ricke, @Anon, @njguy73, @Redneck farmer, @vhrm, @anon, @Hippopotamusdrome, @Not Only Wrathful, @TWS

    False prosecutions, let alone convictions are pretty high up there on the societal/governmental evil scale from my pov.

    And it’s a rather slippery slope too..

    It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone%27s_ratio

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
    @vhrm

    The bigger picture regarding false prosecutions is not Derek Chauvin's case, but the obscenely high rate of exoneration among inner black males.


    Despite making up about 12% of the US population, blacks are 62% of DNA exonerees.


    https://sites.law.duke.edu/forensicsforum/2020/06/05/race-and-dna-exonerations/

    https://sites.law.duke.edu/forensicsforum/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/2020/06/Screen-Shot-2020-06-05-at-2.24.59-PM.png


    Among DNA exonerations a stunning 80 percent were racial minorities. Most striking, 75% of the exonerees who were convicted of rape were black or Latino, while studies indicate that only approximately 30% to 40% of all rape convicts are minorities.
     
    You can help make the world a better place, by donating your income to black and Hispanic inmates. After all, if Blackstone's ratio is true, you'd be every bit in the wrong as Chauvin's prosecutors, by focusing on Derek Chauvin rather than the much larger pool of wrongful convictions among black and Hispanic males. Better for 1 cop to go down than for 10 innocent Black men to be jailed. And keeping Chauvin out of uniform reduces his chances of arresting an innocent person.


    Take heart, freedom fighters of Unz. We're going to all liberfied up in this bitch.

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @Chrisnonymous, @Negrolphin Pool, @Keypusher, @Patrick McNally

  25. @Anonymous
    @Jack D

    Can Chauvin and his lawyer opt for a judge trial instead? Maybe a three-judge panel? Even a liberal judge might be preferable if the defense case is strong, no?

    Replies: @anon, @Chris Renner, @Deep Anonymous

    Even a liberal judge might be preferable if the defense case is strong, no?

    In this case? Absolutely not. Jurors retain a faint hope of anonymity (and freedom from harassment or violence) if they acquit; judges don’t have that.

    • Replies: @Polistra
    @Chris Renner


    Jurors retain a faint hope of anonymity (and freedom from harassment or violence) if they acquit
     
    Which leads to a point: anyone here who's ever been in a jury pool knows that it's quick work to get included in or excluded from any given jury. So, given the obvious risk to life and limb which pertain to this particular proceeding, and in a society where mob rule is in effect, who would deliberately permit him/herself to be placed on this jury?

    That is, who except for anyone who was determined to see Officer Chauvin fry?
  26. anonymous[376] • Disclaimer says:
    @petit bourgeois
    The defense will get a forensic pathologist expert witness, who will say the cause of death was opioid overdose. Voir dire will be gnarly because race is all that matters in a jury trial, not the truth.

    Melvin Belli used to say: "No Chinaman on the jury." I'm surprised he is not cancelled, There are probably a lot of Hmong in the jury pool. I'm hoping the judge gives a directed verdict; but alas, I heard on National People's Radio this morning that the judge is a huge lefty.

    Civilly, the plaintiffs' bar against the cops uses forensic pathologists to say the drugs are not the cause of death, and the smothering or hobbling or positional asphyxiation is what killed him. The autopsy report will determine the outcome.

    Replies: @vhrm, @anonymous, @Polistra, @Art Deco

    Civilly, the plaintiffs’ bar against the cops uses forensic pathologists to say the drugs are not the cause of death, and the smothering or hobbling or positional asphyxiation is what killed him. The autopsy report will determine the outcome.

    The police did nothing wrong though.

    If a criminal dies of a heart attack due to anxiousness over being arrested and charged with a crime, that isn’t murder. It isn’t the fault of the police, even if the fact of the arrest was a “but for”cause of death.

    “If he hadn’t of been arrested, he wouldn’t have felt anxious. If he hadn’t felt anxious, he wouldn’t have had the heart attack. Therefore, the police murdered him.” Doesn’t work like that.

    • Agree: Joseph Doaks
  27. l, from anosognosic:

    This is pretty poor coverage. The narrative moved on from the neck compression to torso compression and positional asphyxia a long time ago. You can learn a lot more about the issues by going through the archives at iSteve and reading the back and forth that took place over the summer.

    • Agree: Polistra
    • Replies: @Anon
    @Chrisnonymous


    This is pretty poor coverage. The narrative moved on from the neck compression to torso compression and positional asphyxia a long time ago. You can learn a lot more about the issues by going through the archives at iSteve and reading the back and forth that took place over the summer.
     
    The commenter “res” has made some good posts about the case.

    By the way, doesn’t Occam’s Razor point to heart attack from exertion and anxiety as being the most likely cause? (And Lo and Behold, that’s the cause given in the autopsy report.)

    Why is this so hard?

    Replies: @Genrick Yagoda

  28. Did the defense make any attempt to move the venue away from Minneapolis? I realize there’s no place in America where you could find jurors who don’t already have an opinion about the case, but at least you could hold the trial in a small town where the jurors have less to fear in the way of retribution.

  29. Anon[136] • Disclaimer says:
    @Chrisnonymous

    l, from anosognosic:
     
    This is pretty poor coverage. The narrative moved on from the neck compression to torso compression and positional asphyxia a long time ago. You can learn a lot more about the issues by going through the archives at iSteve and reading the back and forth that took place over the summer.

    Replies: @Anon

    This is pretty poor coverage. The narrative moved on from the neck compression to torso compression and positional asphyxia a long time ago. You can learn a lot more about the issues by going through the archives at iSteve and reading the back and forth that took place over the summer.

    The commenter “res” has made some good posts about the case.

    By the way, doesn’t Occam’s Razor point to heart attack from exertion and anxiety as being the most likely cause? (And Lo and Behold, that’s the cause given in the autopsy report.)

    Why is this so hard?

    • Agree: Tono Bungay
    • Replies: @Genrick Yagoda
    @Anon


    doesn’t Occam’s Razor point to heart attack from exertion and anxiety as being the most likely cause? (And Lo and Behold, that’s the cause given in the autopsy report.)
     
    The medical examiner's report states no such thing.

    I don't what you are reading, but the medical examiner's report does not state that.
  30. @njguy73
    @JohnPlywood

    "Fade into the dark like Trayvon Martin"

    Or fade into the dark like Emmett Till. Or the Scottsboro Boys. Or the Central Park Five. Or Rodney King. Or Eric Garner.

    All faded into the dark.

    Must be nice to live in your world.

    Replies: @JohnPlywood

    I hardly ever hear any of these names in the lamestream media. It’s like a once-every-couple-of-years, obscured under more relevant headlines type of thing. Maybe once per decade they get blown up again for a short while, usually whenever something big comes up (such as the fact that Emmett Till’s accuser was an admitted liar, and that the Central Park 5 were innocent).

    The only people who think of these cases and still talk about them are fringe Leftist activists and their far-Right reflections in the mirror. Regular people have forgotten about them. The average guy on the street doesn’t know who Emmet Till or the Central Park 5 were. I’ve never even heard of the Scottsboro boys before (don’t want to know, either).

    Giving these cases attention doesn’t seem to be helping the Right win anything tangible. Better to just let the Left fuel these flames with their own coal.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @JohnPlywood

    Are you living at the bottom of a salt mine in some experiment to see how out of touch a human being can become?

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous, @Paperback Writer

    , @Hallie Scott Kline
    @JohnPlywood

    I read of these names all the time.

    , @Paperback Writer
    @JohnPlywood


    I hardly ever hear any of these names in the lamestream media.

     

    I don't have a Nexis account anymore and my name ain't Zach Goldberg, but I can tell you that those names have been literally consecrated and baked into the grievance cake.

    I have actually heard people say that "Trayvon was killed by the police." When I say that he died in a fistfight with a neighbor, which is the most neutral way of describing it, I get stares of blank incomprehension and then a quick 180. The guy who killed him is white, so that's the same thing.

    Replies: @Pat Kittle

    , @AceDeuce
    @JohnPlywood

    Till's accuser was not a liar, much less an admitted one, and the CP5 were and are guilty as hell.

    Are you like that Tiny Dick parody troll? You can't be for real.

    , @Patrick McNally
    @JohnPlywood

    I can't tell what part of your statement is sarcasm and what is not, so I'll just state the point: No one ever found any actual evidence to show that the Central Park 5 were innocent. What happened in that case was that a woman was gang-raped in the midst of a general run-around by 35 or so different black criminals who assaulted and robbed different people to varying degrees. The woman's rape drew special attention (rightly so) and the medical examination showed that she had clearly been raped by a gang, not by a single individual. The imprints from hands and the like showed that she had been handled by several people.

    Eventually the police settled on 5 suspects who they got to confess to the crime. But it was always clear that there had to have been at least 1 other culprit involved because the semen on the woman did not match with these thuggish punks. They had obviously been a part of the general criminal rampage which involved many more blacks rampaging around Central Park, but the evidence against them in terms of the specific rape charge was not corroborated by semen samples.

    Some years later it happened that another prisoner who was locked away on different charges suddenly popped a confession, His semen was tested and it was verified that he really had been the missing culprit. His confession, however, maintained that he had done this as a sole culprit with no else taking part in the crime. As it happened, this confirmed rapist had apparently had some contact with 1 of the Central Park 5 in a prison where they had been mutual acquaintances.

    This logically suggested that perhaps some parts of his confession might have been faked. He was clearly 1 of the rapists involved, because his semen matched, but was he really the only 1 there or did he have collaborators? The woman who had been victimized wanted a new trial which would have forced all of the original defendants to testify under oath in court with a penalty for perjury at hand.

    As it turned out, New York's Jewish elite was so eager to clear the accused black criminals (they definitely were criminals, regardless of whether they actually committed the rape at issue) that they were simply cleared without any trial. The story of the rapist having done it all by himself as a 1-man job then became the new kosher version of the Central Park Jogger story. Yet the original medical examinations made it clear that this was definitely not a 1-man job.

    For the sake of argument I'm willing to allow that theoretically there may be a small chance that the Central Park 5 were not the ones who committed the rape (despite their overall participation in the criminal rampage that provided the context for the rape). There actually were enough young aspiring black criminals running around Central Park there that it is theoretically possible that the police arrested the wrong culprits on the rape charges. But it is perfectly clear that any argument for their innocence which hinges on the 1-man job version is false.

    Replies: @Deep Anonymous, @JohnPlywood

  31. @JohnPlywood
    @Jack D

    Which means the Right is wasting its precious time and energy on this case against one man, in a country of millions, for a right wing agenda that is lost on the majority of the world's inhabitants.


    American police are some of the most hated creatures on the planet right now, and Derek Chauvin is just one schmuck. One faceless, hapless schmuck in a bucket of millions. Why not just let it fade in to the dark like Trayvon Martin slowly did, and devote our time and energy (which are truly precious and finite) to more strategical, winnable activities? Even if Chauvin prevails, it's just gonna make society hate him and the Right even more. The public wants Chauvin to die and nothing we say can ever change that.

    Seeing the right get sucked in to these drama episodes for years on end is sad. Better to just let Derek get the rope (or not) and focus on more pressing issues than whatever murder trials the media decides to blow up for the year. Things like the persistently low (less than 10) total fertility rate, which the government and banks want solved immediately.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Johann Ricke, @Anon, @njguy73, @Redneck farmer, @vhrm, @anon, @Hippopotamusdrome, @Not Only Wrathful, @TWS

    •Dolt

  32. @vhrm
    @JohnPlywood

    False prosecutions, let alone convictions are pretty high up there on the societal/governmental evil scale from my pov.

    And it's a rather slippery slope too..


    It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone%27s_ratio

     

    Replies: @JohnPlywood

    The bigger picture regarding false prosecutions is not Derek Chauvin’s case, but the obscenely high rate of exoneration among inner black males.

    Despite making up about 12% of the US population, blacks are 62% of DNA exonerees.

    https://sites.law.duke.edu/forensicsforum/2020/06/05/race-and-dna-exonerations/

    Among DNA exonerations a stunning 80 percent were racial minorities. Most striking, 75% of the exonerees who were convicted of rape were black or Latino, while studies indicate that only approximately 30% to 40% of all rape convicts are minorities.

    You can help make the world a better place, by donating your income to black and Hispanic inmates. After all, if Blackstone’s ratio is true, you’d be every bit in the wrong as Chauvin’s prosecutors, by focusing on Derek Chauvin rather than the much larger pool of wrongful convictions among black and Hispanic males. Better for 1 cop to go down than for 10 innocent Black men to be jailed. And keeping Chauvin out of uniform reduces his chances of arresting an innocent person.

    Take heart, freedom fighters of Unz. We’re going to all liberfied up in this bitch.

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
    @JohnPlywood

    Back in the 90s, Youngstown police arrested 3 innocent black men for murder. Fortunately for them, they were released.
    After the witnesses to the murders were murdered by parties unknown.

    , @Chrisnonymous
    @JohnPlywood


    the obscenely high rate of exoneration among inner black males.
     
    I often feel I am unfairly neglected and not given my due. I consider this my "inner black male". What do you?
    , @Negrolphin Pool
    @JohnPlywood

    A couple counterstats,

    1) 1350.

    2) 2%er money laundering charity might not be heavily focused on exonerating its nemesis.

    3) 33% of blacks are convicted felons. Given inner-city policing constraints, this usually entails an iceberg-tip rap sheet that reads like a lurid crime novel.

    4) Since the 1950s Warren Court, procedural justice has meant that shooters walk on technicalities. While you bang on your Greater Good drum, their careless bullets take lives.

    , @Keypusher
    @JohnPlywood

    You see that “203” in parentheses? That’s the number of exonerations. There are about six million black male felons in the United States.

    Get a statistical clue.

    , @Patrick McNally
    @JohnPlywood

    Even if all of those exonerations were justified, it just means that when blacks commit the highest proportion of crimes then they also end up with the highest proportion of wrongful convictions. That should make intuitive sense. The obvious solution is for blacks to commit less crime.

    But in fact there have been phony exonerations of blacks which would never have been granted to white people in similar circumstances. The Central Park 5 is the obvious classical case of this. What was forensically proven to have been a gang-rape was reclassified as a 1-man job based strictly upon the confession of a perp who obviously meant to exonerate his fellow gang-members. This would never have resulted in a clearing of 5 accused white defendants who had been charged with raping a black or Jewish woman. One has to at least wonder how many other phony exonerations are there among this list of 203 (granting that some of those exonerations were surely justified).

  33. @JohnPlywood
    @Jack D

    Which means the Right is wasting its precious time and energy on this case against one man, in a country of millions, for a right wing agenda that is lost on the majority of the world's inhabitants.


    American police are some of the most hated creatures on the planet right now, and Derek Chauvin is just one schmuck. One faceless, hapless schmuck in a bucket of millions. Why not just let it fade in to the dark like Trayvon Martin slowly did, and devote our time and energy (which are truly precious and finite) to more strategical, winnable activities? Even if Chauvin prevails, it's just gonna make society hate him and the Right even more. The public wants Chauvin to die and nothing we say can ever change that.

    Seeing the right get sucked in to these drama episodes for years on end is sad. Better to just let Derek get the rope (or not) and focus on more pressing issues than whatever murder trials the media decides to blow up for the year. Things like the persistently low (less than 10) total fertility rate, which the government and banks want solved immediately.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Johann Ricke, @Anon, @njguy73, @Redneck farmer, @vhrm, @anon, @Hippopotamusdrome, @Not Only Wrathful, @TWS

    for a right wing agenda that is lost on the majority of the world’s inhabitants

    You are aware of what policing is like in the rest of the World? What would police in Saudi Arabia, India, or China do to a counterfeiter who is high as a kite and back-talks?

    China Sentences Man to Death for Trafficking Fentanyl to the U.S.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Hippopotamusdrome


    You are aware of what policing is like in the rest of the World? What would police in Saudi Arabia, India, or China do to a counterfeiter who is high as a kite and back-talks?
     
    What would they do to a man who put a pistol to a pregnant woman’s abdomen in order to subdue her while he and and others burglarized her home?

    Regarding this recent Minnesota incident, Floyd didn’t “back talk” so much as he physically resisted the officers’ attempt to arrest him. He fought against the police.
  34. @Chris Renner
    @Anonymous


    Even a liberal judge might be preferable if the defense case is strong, no?
     
    In this case? Absolutely not. Jurors retain a faint hope of anonymity (and freedom from harassment or violence) if they acquit; judges don't have that.

    Replies: @Polistra

    Jurors retain a faint hope of anonymity (and freedom from harassment or violence) if they acquit

    Which leads to a point: anyone here who’s ever been in a jury pool knows that it’s quick work to get included in or excluded from any given jury. So, given the obvious risk to life and limb which pertain to this particular proceeding, and in a society where mob rule is in effect, who would deliberately permit him/herself to be placed on this jury?

    That is, who except for anyone who was determined to see Officer Chauvin fry?

  35. @petit bourgeois
    The defense will get a forensic pathologist expert witness, who will say the cause of death was opioid overdose. Voir dire will be gnarly because race is all that matters in a jury trial, not the truth.

    Melvin Belli used to say: "No Chinaman on the jury." I'm surprised he is not cancelled, There are probably a lot of Hmong in the jury pool. I'm hoping the judge gives a directed verdict; but alas, I heard on National People's Radio this morning that the judge is a huge lefty.

    Civilly, the plaintiffs' bar against the cops uses forensic pathologists to say the drugs are not the cause of death, and the smothering or hobbling or positional asphyxiation is what killed him. The autopsy report will determine the outcome.

    Replies: @vhrm, @anonymous, @Polistra, @Art Deco

    The autopsy report will determine the outcome.

    The report will certainly influence the outcome, but its interpretation will be contingent upon expert testimony and that will influence the outcome even more.

  36. I think this would be a really stupid hill for conservatives to fight on. Virtually everyone who saw the video intuit that Chauvin’s behavior was really wrong on a moral level. And it was.

    “But, but, it is the principle of the thing.”

    Trump conservatives have often rightly pointed out that the bowtie conservatives have been completely out of touch with where everyday people are at as the bowtie conservatives pursued a pure conservatism. Losing the Senate to preserve conservative principles on stimulus in the middle of a pandemic is a great example.

    Well I would say that people defending Chauvin are being like the bowtie conservatives usually are — stuck on principle with no common sense.

    Chauvin is not a nice guy, like, at all. A dude couldn’t breathe and kept saying so. Chauvin wouldn’t get off of him for a really long time. Many minutes. Who does that? Is 1 in 1000 among us that merciless?

    I get that the fentanyl may have what killed Floyd. I get that Chauvin could have gotten off of George Floyd at the beginning and he might have still died.

    But Chauvin was so hard-hearted it is mind-boggling — as unsympathetic a figure as you can get. His brutishness –and you have to be a real brute not to react for such a long time when someone underneath you begs that he can’t breathe — really damaged law and order in this country to where the homicide rate has soared. And Floyd was barely moving and was totally outnumbered anyway. There wasn’t even any need.

    Yes I get it about the fentanyl.

    I rooted for George Zimmerman throughout his trial because he literally killed to save his own life from a position of being dominated and he had the injures on the back of his head to prove it.

    Chauvin by contrast had total power as a man beneath him was begging for his life — and Chauvin just wouldn’t move. Yes, I understand that maybe Floyd was dying anyway. But thousands people died in the wake of his unnecessary brutishness. If Chauvin is convicted it will feel just even if he technically could be acquitted.

    But also, a Chauvin acquittal would be bad for law and order. If police can behave that badly and not have consequences, they lose the Mandate of Heaven.

    • Disagree: Catdog, Tusk, Lot
    • LOL: AndrewR
    • Troll: TWS
    • Replies: @Anon
    @DanHessinMD


    I think this would be a really stupid hill for conservatives to fight on. Virtually everyone who saw the video intuit that Chauvin’s behavior was really wrong on a moral level. And it was.
     
    No it wasn’t. Not at all. Neck restraints have been used with hundreds of other suspects without injury. That hold does not impinge on the windpipe at all or cut off blood to the brain. The video only gives the appearance that he was applying significant pressure to the neck.

    Indeed, the autopsy report found—and I quote—“NO LIFE THREATENING INJURIES.” It also found no evidence of asphyxiation. Moreover, Floyd’s ability to talk (repeatedly and loudly and at length) gave the lie to his claim that he couldn’t breath. From the officer’s perspective he was crying wolf in order to get out of being arrested.

    Officer Chauvin’s restraining him was reasonable and safe. He and the other officers had a duty to make the arrest, protect themselves, protect the public, and safeguard Floyd, to prevent him from injuring himself Remember, he was in the street at the time and could have banged his head on the pavement, on the metal of squad car, or flopped around and gotten hit by oncoming traffic. Do you have any experience restraining a 6’7, muscled, 260-lb man who is amped up on amphetamines?

    Well I would say that people defending Chauvin are being like the bowtie conservatives usually are — stuck on principle with no common sense.
     
    I’ll admit to being principled on this. Officer Chauvin is innocent.

    Chauvin is not a nice guy, like, at all. A dude couldn’t breathe and kept saying so. Chauvin wouldn’t get off of him for a really long time.
     
    The fact Floyd could say so was proof that his airways were unobstructed.

    But Chauvin was so hard-hearted it is mind-And Floyd was barely moving and was totally outnumbered anyway. There wasn’t even any need.
     
    He had to keep Floyd restrained until the ambulance came. Floyd was in the middle of the street and resisting arrest. Officer Chauvin did everything by the book. He is an innocent man. He didn’t behave badly at all.

    Replies: @Anonymouse

    , @AndrewR
    @DanHessinMD

    As Anon points out, Chauvin literally did nothing wrong.

    But even if he had, the riots were promoted by black supremacists and their enablers. All Americans could benefit from police reform, but BLM is only nominally about cops. It's about installing black supremacy. And as we have seen, black supremacy is actually worse for blacks themselves than any other system is.

    , @Not Only Wrathful
    @DanHessinMD

    Chauvin calmly subdued Floyd by the book while Floyd was acting mental. Chauvin was even carefully instructing his racially diverse juniors on the textbook solution. Chauvin had nothing to do with Floyd's death, and his knee on his neck was as stabbing a voodoo doll is to someone's actual death - an extremely unfortunate coincidence.

    Replies: @vhrm

    , @Luzzatto
    @DanHessinMD

    If George Floyd was some high as fuck White Trash Junkie I wonder how many people here on The Unz would still say that Derek Chauvin was correct to keep his knee on handcuffed George's neck for over 9 minutes? I'm guessing Derek Chauvin would no longer be their hero.

    George Floyd was handcuffed so it's not like he could break Derek Chauvin's jaws with his fists!

    Replies: @Nicholas Stix, @njguy73

    , @Jack D
    @DanHessinMD

    I don't think an acquittal for Chauvin is in the cards. Even if he is by some miracle fully acquitted by all jurors (including the black jurors) on all state charges, that is just going to trigger a federal indictment against him. I really think the best outcome for Chauvin and for society at this point is for him to be convicted of some lesser offense (clearly not intentional homicide - whatever he was trying to do he didn't really intend to kill Floyd). Chauvin is guilty of SOMETHING. Unfortunately, being stubborn and stupid is not a crime in and of itself so they are going to have to find some charge.

    Chauvin's crime began not when Floyd begged for help but when he STOPPED begging. Jeez, there was a point where the other cops could no longer find a pulse - he was literally dead and STILL the idiot kept his knee on him. Just because this has turned into a racial case doesn't mean that Chauvin is completely innocent. We are supposed to have a system of justice, not a system of racial solidarity.

    Replies: @Dieter Kief, @Matt Buckalew

    , @anon
    @DanHessinMD

    But also, a Chauvin acquittal would be bad for law and order.

    Isn't that just extortion, of the "Some of your town is still nice, be a real shame if something bad happened, eh? Just go along with us and we'll all get along". Sort of what the Mafia used to do in some cities back in the past.

    You afraid of some more riots in Maryland, or just fond of throwing mere white working class plebes out of the sleigh, or what?

    , @Jack D
    @DanHessinMD


    But Chauvin was so hard-hearted it is mind-boggling
     
    Unfortunately, police work has this effect on some people. They spend every day dealing with the scum of the earth like Floyd. People like Floyd, who aside from being thieves and addicts, are also fluent liars. Maybe when you are a young and naive cop you still believe them but after a while you realize that they are lying 99 times out of 100 and so you learn never to believe them. You realize that in most cases these people bring misfortune upon themselves and so you lose all sympathy for them. You learn never to trust them because if you extend any kindness, they will take advantage of the situation in any way they can. You become very cynical about human nature. Under such circumstances, it's also easy to begin to see people of other races as less than human, because they really act like subhumans. All of the platitudes about equality are contradicted by what your eyes see every day. I say these things by way of explanation, not excuse. None of what I say would excuse criminal conduct.

    There are some cops who are able to maintain their humanity in the face of this, but it's understandable why some don't. At that point, maybe it's time for them to seek another line of work. I'll bet Chauvin wishes he had retired sooner.
    , @TWS
    @DanHessinMD

    Every single person you restrain will say they can't breathe. Of course, that is never true. The knee on the neck is neither cruel nor unsafe. You literally cannot put enough weight on an adult man to harm him that way. That's why it is standard training.

    The cop was obviously gassed from fighting a drugged up bouncer who was huge and well built.

    Cruel? Not even a little. What would be hilarious would be have you work intake at a large city/county jail Friday night. I would probably die laughing but it would be worth it to watch you shriek in terror and soil yourself.

    Don't think it doesn't happen. I've seen it more than once.

  37. @Wilkey
    1) Contra the video most people have seen, the bodycam footage shows the police acting very professionally.

    2) The tactics used by the cops were accepted practice by the Minneapolis PD, whose chief is a black man.

    3) Floyd's statement that he couldn't breath began before they had him on the ground. The officers had called and were waiting for an ambulance. It ain't their fault that the ambulance took so damn long to get there.

    4) The tox screen shows he had probably lethal levels of illegal narcotics in his system. This is what's called reasonable doubt - a solid explanation for his death that had nothing to do with the actions of the officers.

    Derek Chauvin should almost certainly be acquitted, unless they've rigged the outcome. The problem is what happens if/when he is acquitted. Democrats aren't prepared for the hell that will break loose when that happens. My guess is they will use the verdict as yet more evidence that we need "racial reconciliation." Be prepared for an even bigger push for quotas, reparations, and God only knows what else to make up for this supposed injustice. The question is how whites and Republicans respond: yet another surrender to the mob, or will more of us finally and emphatically call them on their bullshit?

    Replies: @anonymous, @J.Ross, @Jack D, @Steve from Detroit

    Accept that the criminal justice system doesn’t exist any more.

    • Agree: TomSchmidt
  38. @Anon
    @JohnPlywood


    Seeing the right get sucked in to these drama episodes for years on end is sad.
     
    Leave no man behind.

    Replies: @JohnPlywood

    I like people wbo weren’t captured.

    • Replies: @bomag
    @JohnPlywood

    We don't plan on making him a hero.

  39. @JohnPlywood
    @njguy73

    I hardly ever hear any of these names in the lamestream media. It's like a once-every-couple-of-years, obscured under more relevant headlines type of thing. Maybe once per decade they get blown up again for a short while, usually whenever something big comes up (such as the fact that Emmett Till's accuser was an admitted liar, and that the Central Park 5 were innocent).

    The only people who think of these cases and still talk about them are fringe Leftist activists and their far-Right reflections in the mirror. Regular people have forgotten about them. The average guy on the street doesn't know who Emmet Till or the Central Park 5 were. I've never even heard of the Scottsboro boys before (don't want to know, either).

    Giving these cases attention doesn't seem to be helping the Right win anything tangible. Better to just let the Left fuel these flames with their own coal.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Hallie Scott Kline, @Paperback Writer, @AceDeuce, @Patrick McNally

    Are you living at the bottom of a salt mine in some experiment to see how out of touch a human being can become?

    • Thanks: MEH 0910
    • Troll: Je Suis Omar Mateen
    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    @Steve Sailer

    Thanks, Steve. JohnPlywood is insufferable.

    , @Paperback Writer
    @Steve Sailer

    Apologies for the off-topic hijacking, but I am hoping you'll do a post on how utterly & completely Hollywood has caved to woke casting/producing. It's gone way beyond anything the 1970s ever gave us. It's now impossible to produce a movie without black "stars,"* and along with that, specifically black movies/series are dominant.

    *In what world is Tessa Thompson a movie star?

  40. As someone who isn’t American, I don’t get how there’s even a trial if Chauvin was just following official police guidelines of putting knees on necks for excited delirium. Surely whoever decided on the guidelines is responsible?

    • Agree: Jonathan Mason
    • Replies: @anonymous
    @Some Guy


    As someone who isn’t American, I don’t get how there’s even a trial if Chauvin was just following official police guidelines of putting knees on necks for excited delirium. Surely whoever decided on the guidelines is responsible?
     
    “Responsible” in what sense? Do you consider the guidelines to be bad? If so, why?

    Replies: @Some Guy

    , @Not Only Wrathful
    @Some Guy

    Yes, exactly. The knee on neck thing looks ugly but is proven as effective in difficult scenarios where social work won't cut it. But that's not even relevant.

    Chauvin was following established police procedures and was obviously not trying to kill anyone. Once those two facts are accepted, he is no more responsible for Floyd's death, even if the knee on neck contributed (which it clearly didn't), than someone who runs over a child because their car goes forward when it is in reverse.

    The child would have been a complete innocent, but we don't hold people responsible for murder for sensibly following established norms in difficult situations. It would certainly make sense to investigate the knee on neck procedure again, but the body of evidence is already very clear, it isn't the problem. Progressives are extreme in their blood lust. That is all.

    Replies: @Redman

  41. Anon[334] • Disclaimer says:
    @Hippopotamusdrome
    @JohnPlywood



    for a right wing agenda that is lost on the majority of the world’s inhabitants

     

    You are aware of what policing is like in the rest of the World? What would police in Saudi Arabia, India, or China do to a counterfeiter who is high as a kite and back-talks?

    China Sentences Man to Death for Trafficking Fentanyl to the U.S.

    Replies: @Anon

    You are aware of what policing is like in the rest of the World? What would police in Saudi Arabia, India, or China do to a counterfeiter who is high as a kite and back-talks?

    What would they do to a man who put a pistol to a pregnant woman’s abdomen in order to subdue her while he and and others burglarized her home?

    Regarding this recent Minnesota incident, Floyd didn’t “back talk” so much as he physically resisted the officers’ attempt to arrest him. He fought against the police.

  42. Anon[334] • Disclaimer says:
    @DanHessinMD
    I think this would be a really stupid hill for conservatives to fight on. Virtually everyone who saw the video intuit that Chauvin's behavior was really wrong on a moral level. And it was.

    "But, but, it is the principle of the thing."

    Trump conservatives have often rightly pointed out that the bowtie conservatives have been completely out of touch with where everyday people are at as the bowtie conservatives pursued a pure conservatism. Losing the Senate to preserve conservative principles on stimulus in the middle of a pandemic is a great example.

    Well I would say that people defending Chauvin are being like the bowtie conservatives usually are -- stuck on principle with no common sense.

    Chauvin is not a nice guy, like, at all. A dude couldn't breathe and kept saying so. Chauvin wouldn't get off of him for a really long time. Many minutes. Who does that? Is 1 in 1000 among us that merciless?

    I get that the fentanyl may have what killed Floyd. I get that Chauvin could have gotten off of George Floyd at the beginning and he might have still died.

    But Chauvin was so hard-hearted it is mind-boggling -- as unsympathetic a figure as you can get. His brutishness --and you have to be a real brute not to react for such a long time when someone underneath you begs that he can't breathe -- really damaged law and order in this country to where the homicide rate has soared. And Floyd was barely moving and was totally outnumbered anyway. There wasn't even any need.

    Yes I get it about the fentanyl.

    I rooted for George Zimmerman throughout his trial because he literally killed to save his own life from a position of being dominated and he had the injures on the back of his head to prove it.

    Chauvin by contrast had total power as a man beneath him was begging for his life -- and Chauvin just wouldn't move. Yes, I understand that maybe Floyd was dying anyway. But thousands people died in the wake of his unnecessary brutishness. If Chauvin is convicted it will feel just even if he technically could be acquitted.

    But also, a Chauvin acquittal would be bad for law and order. If police can behave that badly and not have consequences, they lose the Mandate of Heaven.

    Replies: @Anon, @AndrewR, @Not Only Wrathful, @Luzzatto, @Jack D, @anon, @Jack D, @TWS

    I think this would be a really stupid hill for conservatives to fight on. Virtually everyone who saw the video intuit that Chauvin’s behavior was really wrong on a moral level. And it was.

    No it wasn’t. Not at all. Neck restraints have been used with hundreds of other suspects without injury. That hold does not impinge on the windpipe at all or cut off blood to the brain. The video only gives the appearance that he was applying significant pressure to the neck.

    Indeed, the autopsy report found—and I quote—“NO LIFE THREATENING INJURIES.” It also found no evidence of asphyxiation. Moreover, Floyd’s ability to talk (repeatedly and loudly and at length) gave the lie to his claim that he couldn’t breath. From the officer’s perspective he was crying wolf in order to get out of being arrested.

    Officer Chauvin’s restraining him was reasonable and safe. He and the other officers had a duty to make the arrest, protect themselves, protect the public, and safeguard Floyd, to prevent him from injuring himself Remember, he was in the street at the time and could have banged his head on the pavement, on the metal of squad car, or flopped around and gotten hit by oncoming traffic. Do you have any experience restraining a 6’7, muscled, 260-lb man who is amped up on amphetamines?

    Well I would say that people defending Chauvin are being like the bowtie conservatives usually are — stuck on principle with no common sense.

    I’ll admit to being principled on this. Officer Chauvin is innocent.

    Chauvin is not a nice guy, like, at all. A dude couldn’t breathe and kept saying so. Chauvin wouldn’t get off of him for a really long time.

    The fact Floyd could say so was proof that his airways were unobstructed.

    But Chauvin was so hard-hearted it is mind-And Floyd was barely moving and was totally outnumbered anyway. There wasn’t even any need.

    He had to keep Floyd restrained until the ambulance came. Floyd was in the middle of the street and resisting arrest. Officer Chauvin did everything by the book. He is an innocent man. He didn’t behave badly at all.

    • Replies: @Anonymouse
    @Anon

    The difference between pressue on the front of the neck, the windpipe, and pressure on the side of the neck may be demonstrated this way. Press as hard as you can on the side of your neck. You will discover that the tendons and muscles there prevent any untoward effect. Then press gingerly on the front of your neck which does not resist pressure. Had Chauvin been kneeling on the front of Floyd's neck, he would have been immediately asphixiated.

    From the video Chauvin's face seems impassive, just doing what he was trained to do.

    Replies: @absolom

  43. Justice for Chauvin!

    And justice for Floyd!

    He was a bad guy in the past. Was he trying to turn his life around? I don’t know. But who started the pandemic that cost him his job? Who made the counterfeit bills that he was arrested for passing? Who made the fentanyl that killed him during that arrest?

  44. anonymous[398] • Disclaimer says:
    @Some Guy
    As someone who isn't American, I don't get how there's even a trial if Chauvin was just following official police guidelines of putting knees on necks for excited delirium. Surely whoever decided on the guidelines is responsible?

    Replies: @anonymous, @Not Only Wrathful

    As someone who isn’t American, I don’t get how there’s even a trial if Chauvin was just following official police guidelines of putting knees on necks for excited delirium. Surely whoever decided on the guidelines is responsible?

    “Responsible” in what sense? Do you consider the guidelines to be bad? If so, why?

    • Replies: @Some Guy
    @anonymous

    I meant it in a neutral way, "being the primary cause of something and so able to be blamed or credited for it."

  45. @Known Fact
    I heard the prosecution was trying to reactivate a 3rd-degree murder option for the jury. Doesn't that indicate at least some lack of confidence in their own case?

    Replies: @Sean

    Chauvin scrambled to get a deal while it was still local (rather than state) officials who were handling his prosecution; he was willing to plead guilty and do ten years in prison, with immunity from a follow on Civil Rights case. That was considered much too lenient by Barr who vetoed it. Even were he to be acquited, they will just him him with a Civil Rights case and he can get 480 months on that. He has no chance of ever getting out, and he is doubtless being held on Maxwell style micromanaging suicide watch. After the public get their show of him getting convicted and sentenced, the suicide watch will be eventually be removed, and I think he will take the oppertunity to escape the only way left to him: by going out feet first.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Sean

    But then it turned out Floyd was loaded with fentanyl.

    Replies: @Sean, @Wizard of Oz

    , @anonymous
    @Sean


    Chauvin scrambled to get a deal while it was still local (rather than state) officials who were handling his prosecution; he was willing to plead guilty and do ten years in prison
     
    Bull.
    , @sayless
    @Sean

    Sean I'm very much afraid you are right about all of that.

  46. @anonymous
    @Some Guy


    As someone who isn’t American, I don’t get how there’s even a trial if Chauvin was just following official police guidelines of putting knees on necks for excited delirium. Surely whoever decided on the guidelines is responsible?
     
    “Responsible” in what sense? Do you consider the guidelines to be bad? If so, why?

    Replies: @Some Guy

    I meant it in a neutral way, “being the primary cause of something and so able to be blamed or credited for it.”

  47. @Sean
    @Known Fact

    Chauvin scrambled to get a deal while it was still local (rather than state) officials who were handling his prosecution; he was willing to plead guilty and do ten years in prison, with immunity from a follow on Civil Rights case. That was considered much too lenient by Barr who vetoed it. Even were he to be acquited, they will just him him with a Civil Rights case and he can get 480 months on that. He has no chance of ever getting out, and he is doubtless being held on Maxwell style micromanaging suicide watch. After the public get their show of him getting convicted and sentenced, the suicide watch will be eventually be removed, and I think he will take the oppertunity to escape the only way left to him: by going out feet first.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @anonymous, @sayless

    But then it turned out Floyd was loaded with fentanyl.

    • Agree: Gordo
    • Replies: @Sean
    @Steve Sailer

    If so, why did he need to be restrained, eh?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvZ6VEQB20g

    Replies: @Anonymous

    , @Wizard of Oz
    @Steve Sailer

    I am pretty confident that in my state in Australia where one cannot opt for murder trial by judge without jury (a pity because our judges are not elected and have tenure to age 70) the DPP would think seriously of not prosecuting at all given the doubts that would be certain to be raised about the cause of death. How could a jury convict?

    It will be interesting to see what I would hope is well in hand for the defence. That is a number of filmed experiments wherein someone of Chauvin's size spends 9 minutes doing exactly what Chauvin did to someone resembling Floyd with measurements of physiological variables before, during and after.

  48. If TPTB manage to convict Chauvin then White cops should retreat to White areas and defend them.

  49. Just blame the Israelis for pushing the knee to the neck procedure. If it’s alright for the Israelis to perform, then that should be all that needs to be said.

    • Replies: @anon
    @Jiminy


    Just blame the Israelis for pushing the knee to the neck procedure.
     
    Do you have a citation?

    Replies: @Jiminy

  50. @Jack D
    Not going well for Chauvin - they have already seated several blacks on the jury even though the city is mostly white. This is a race case and the only thing that matters is the race of the jury. We saw in the OJ case that in race cases evidence is irrelevant. The best Chauvin can hope for now is a hung jury.

    Replies: @JohnPlywood, @Anonymous, @Gordo, @Redman, @Paperback Writer, @Art Deco

    This is a race case and the only thing that matters is the race of the jury.

    There should be a Marcia Clark topic for law students on jury selection, immortality.

  51. @Sean
    @Known Fact

    Chauvin scrambled to get a deal while it was still local (rather than state) officials who were handling his prosecution; he was willing to plead guilty and do ten years in prison, with immunity from a follow on Civil Rights case. That was considered much too lenient by Barr who vetoed it. Even were he to be acquited, they will just him him with a Civil Rights case and he can get 480 months on that. He has no chance of ever getting out, and he is doubtless being held on Maxwell style micromanaging suicide watch. After the public get their show of him getting convicted and sentenced, the suicide watch will be eventually be removed, and I think he will take the oppertunity to escape the only way left to him: by going out feet first.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @anonymous, @sayless

    Chauvin scrambled to get a deal while it was still local (rather than state) officials who were handling his prosecution; he was willing to plead guilty and do ten years in prison

    Bull.

  52. @DanHessinMD
    I think this would be a really stupid hill for conservatives to fight on. Virtually everyone who saw the video intuit that Chauvin's behavior was really wrong on a moral level. And it was.

    "But, but, it is the principle of the thing."

    Trump conservatives have often rightly pointed out that the bowtie conservatives have been completely out of touch with where everyday people are at as the bowtie conservatives pursued a pure conservatism. Losing the Senate to preserve conservative principles on stimulus in the middle of a pandemic is a great example.

    Well I would say that people defending Chauvin are being like the bowtie conservatives usually are -- stuck on principle with no common sense.

    Chauvin is not a nice guy, like, at all. A dude couldn't breathe and kept saying so. Chauvin wouldn't get off of him for a really long time. Many minutes. Who does that? Is 1 in 1000 among us that merciless?

    I get that the fentanyl may have what killed Floyd. I get that Chauvin could have gotten off of George Floyd at the beginning and he might have still died.

    But Chauvin was so hard-hearted it is mind-boggling -- as unsympathetic a figure as you can get. His brutishness --and you have to be a real brute not to react for such a long time when someone underneath you begs that he can't breathe -- really damaged law and order in this country to where the homicide rate has soared. And Floyd was barely moving and was totally outnumbered anyway. There wasn't even any need.

    Yes I get it about the fentanyl.

    I rooted for George Zimmerman throughout his trial because he literally killed to save his own life from a position of being dominated and he had the injures on the back of his head to prove it.

    Chauvin by contrast had total power as a man beneath him was begging for his life -- and Chauvin just wouldn't move. Yes, I understand that maybe Floyd was dying anyway. But thousands people died in the wake of his unnecessary brutishness. If Chauvin is convicted it will feel just even if he technically could be acquitted.

    But also, a Chauvin acquittal would be bad for law and order. If police can behave that badly and not have consequences, they lose the Mandate of Heaven.

    Replies: @Anon, @AndrewR, @Not Only Wrathful, @Luzzatto, @Jack D, @anon, @Jack D, @TWS

    As Anon points out, Chauvin literally did nothing wrong.

    But even if he had, the riots were promoted by black supremacists and their enablers. All Americans could benefit from police reform, but BLM is only nominally about cops. It’s about installing black supremacy. And as we have seen, black supremacy is actually worse for blacks themselves than any other system is.

  53. @JohnPlywood
    @vhrm

    The bigger picture regarding false prosecutions is not Derek Chauvin's case, but the obscenely high rate of exoneration among inner black males.


    Despite making up about 12% of the US population, blacks are 62% of DNA exonerees.


    https://sites.law.duke.edu/forensicsforum/2020/06/05/race-and-dna-exonerations/

    https://sites.law.duke.edu/forensicsforum/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/2020/06/Screen-Shot-2020-06-05-at-2.24.59-PM.png


    Among DNA exonerations a stunning 80 percent were racial minorities. Most striking, 75% of the exonerees who were convicted of rape were black or Latino, while studies indicate that only approximately 30% to 40% of all rape convicts are minorities.
     
    You can help make the world a better place, by donating your income to black and Hispanic inmates. After all, if Blackstone's ratio is true, you'd be every bit in the wrong as Chauvin's prosecutors, by focusing on Derek Chauvin rather than the much larger pool of wrongful convictions among black and Hispanic males. Better for 1 cop to go down than for 10 innocent Black men to be jailed. And keeping Chauvin out of uniform reduces his chances of arresting an innocent person.


    Take heart, freedom fighters of Unz. We're going to all liberfied up in this bitch.

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @Chrisnonymous, @Negrolphin Pool, @Keypusher, @Patrick McNally

    Back in the 90s, Youngstown police arrested 3 innocent black men for murder. Fortunately for them, they were released.
    After the witnesses to the murders were murdered by parties unknown.

    • Troll: Dan Hayes
  54. @Steve Sailer
    @Sean

    But then it turned out Floyd was loaded with fentanyl.

    Replies: @Sean, @Wizard of Oz

    If so, why did he need to be restrained, eh?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Sean

    So those officers could have saved him with Narcan then, it would seem.

    Chauvin is really not someone to fight for. If you want to talk about injustice, a real injustice is how the US Justice department is attempting to destroy many hundreds of people in the Capitol Hill protests, including many people who didn't hurt a fly didn't resist any police and just followed the crowd in.

    Did you know congressman Jamie Raskin -- who led impeachment over the January 6 'storming of congress' -- literally participated in a huge illegal storming of congress on June 28th, 2018? I am not joking. His righteous outrage over January 6th ignores the unbelievable fact that he participated in something awfully similar, the illegal storming inside congress by a huge mob -- only two years before. It was the Hart Senate Office Building rather than the Capitol so you get very different imagery but the crimes hundreds of January 6th protesters are being charged with could apply here.

    https://www.rollcall.com/2018/06/28/photos-of-the-day-575-protesters-charged-at-senates-hart-building-at-immigration-rally/

    If you want to understand a two-tiered justice system in action, here you go, but you should be sitting down because it is hard to take:

    Eight Times When Leftist Protestors Illegally Mobbed Congress with Trump as President

    (1) June 28th 2018: “Photos of the Day: 575 Protesters Charged at Senate’s Hart Building at Immigration Rally ”
    https://www.rollcall.com/2018/06/28/photos-of-the-day-575-protesters-charged-at-senates-hart-building-at-immigration-rally/
    “An afternoon of protests ended in many arrests in the Hart Senate Office Building on Thursday as a group of mostly female protesters flooded the atrium of the work space to protest President Donald Trump’s immigration policies.
    United States Capitol Police charged nearly 575 individuals with “unlawfully demonstrating,” according to a Capitol Police statement Thursday.”

    (2) October 4th 2018: “Amy Schumer among 302 arrested for Senate office protests on Kavanaugh”
    That would be incoming Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer’s cousin Amy Schumer illegally entering and protesting in Congress along with a gang of more than 300 others.
    https://www.kalb.com/content/news/Amy-Schumer-among-302-arrested-for-Senate-office-protests-on-Kavanaugh-495221031.html
    “U.S. Capitol Police said that 302 people were arrested Thursday for illegally protesting inside the Senate office buildings against the Supreme Court nomination of Brett Kavanaugh.”

    (3) July 25, 2017: “USCP Arrest Protesters for Demonstration Activity on Capitol Grounds”
    https://www.uscp.gov/media-center/press-releases/uscp-arrest-protesters-demonstration-activity-capitol-grounds
    “Officers on the scene arrested the demonstrators when they failed to cease and desist with their unlawful demonstration activities. Thirty-one demonstrators were charged with DC Code §10-503.16 - Disruption of Congress.
    At approximately 2:55 p.m., USCP officers responded to the atrium of the Hart Senate Office Building for reported demonstration activities. Sixty-four individuals were arrested after refusing to cease and desist with their unlawful demonstration activities. They were charged with D.C. Code §22-1307, Crowding, Obstructing, or Incommoding.”

    (4) July 18th, 2019: “70 Catholic protesters arrested in D.C. demonstration against Trump's immigration policies”
    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/70-catholic-protesters-arrested-in-washington-dc-demonstration-against-trump-immigration-policies/
    “U.S. Capitol Police said 70 protesters were arrested for unlawfully demonstrating, and were charged with crowding, obstructing, or incommoding, which is a misdemeanor.”

    (5) June 22, 2017: “Capitol Police arrest 43 protesters at ‘die-in’ in Senate office building”
    https://wtop.com/dc/2017/06/capitol-police-arrest-43-protesters-die-senate-office-building/
    “U.S. Capitol Police said 70 protesters were arrested for unlawfully demonstrating, and were charged with crowding, obstructing, or incommoding, which is a misdemeanor.”

    (6) January 17th 2018: “Dozens of people arrested during DACA protest in Russell Senate Building in D.C.”
    https://wjla.com/news/local/dozens-of-people-arrested-during-daca-protest-in-russell-senate-building-in-dc
    “WASHINGTON (ABC7) — Over 50 people have been arrested Wednesday during a Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) Sit-in protest inside the Russell Senate Office Building on Capitol Hill in Washington, D.C.”

    (7) October 5th, 2018: “U.S. Capitol Police Respond to Multiple Instances of Unlawful Demonstration Activities”
    https://www.uscp.gov/media-center/press-releases/us-capitol-police-respond-multiple-instances-unlawful-demonstration
    “United States Capitol Police officers responded to multiple instances of unlawful demonstration activities on Friday, October 5, 2018.
    A total of 101 individuals were arrested. Additional details are below.
    During the course of the day, 78 individuals were arrested throughout the Senate Office Buildings, and they were charged with D.C. Code §22-1307, Crowding, Obstructing, or Incommoding.”

    (8) September 25th 2017: “Capitol police arrest 181 during protests at Graham-Cassidy bill hearing”
    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/capitol-police-arrest-181-during-protests-at-graham-cassidy-bill-hearing
    “The U.S. Capitol Police arrested a total of 181 people for protesting during a Senate Finance Committee hearing regarding the Graham-Cassidy healthcare bill on Monday.”

    Replies: @Art Deco, @Sean

  55. Police need to walk-off the job. Let the Lefties show us how to properly deal with criminals, don’t worry it won’t last long.

  56. @Guy De Champlagne
    Let's say it's established that Floyd popped a bunch of pills he had on him to destroy evidence and started overdosing right in front of Chauvin and then under Chauvin's knee. Is the defense going to be that Chauvin was under no obligation to to have been aware what was going on right in front of him and to modify his restraint accordingly? Or is his argument that the neck restraint was proper and justified for someone he knew was rapidly losing health?

    Both those arguments would take some work to convince the man on the street.

    And, yes I know that's not murder and that doctors and nurses, who together with the dastardly police are the great heroes and villains of 2020, kill hundreds of thousands through their negligence.

    Replies: @gent

    The restraint had nothing to do with his overdosing. That hold is not capable of obstructing the airway.

    • Replies: @Guy De Champlagne
    @gent

    Common sense says that since Chauvin had nothing else to do but restrain Floyd and had two other cops with him he should have worked with Floyd to find him a more comfortable position.

    Chauvin also had every reason to know how bad what he was doing looked because there was a crowd freaking out about it.

    I'd sooner believe that being restrained in that awkward position actually helped Floyd than that it had no effect whatsoever. But I'm not any kind of expert and am couching things in terms of how they look to everyday people.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @TWS

  57. @JohnPlywood
    @Jack D

    Which means the Right is wasting its precious time and energy on this case against one man, in a country of millions, for a right wing agenda that is lost on the majority of the world's inhabitants.


    American police are some of the most hated creatures on the planet right now, and Derek Chauvin is just one schmuck. One faceless, hapless schmuck in a bucket of millions. Why not just let it fade in to the dark like Trayvon Martin slowly did, and devote our time and energy (which are truly precious and finite) to more strategical, winnable activities? Even if Chauvin prevails, it's just gonna make society hate him and the Right even more. The public wants Chauvin to die and nothing we say can ever change that.

    Seeing the right get sucked in to these drama episodes for years on end is sad. Better to just let Derek get the rope (or not) and focus on more pressing issues than whatever murder trials the media decides to blow up for the year. Things like the persistently low (less than 10) total fertility rate, which the government and banks want solved immediately.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Johann Ricke, @Anon, @njguy73, @Redneck farmer, @vhrm, @anon, @Hippopotamusdrome, @Not Only Wrathful, @TWS

    No, Chauvin’s pain, as he is destroyed as a person, purely to satiate progressive blood lust, should be shot, like a burning arrow, back into the heart of every person who is exalting in his suffering.

    • Agree: Calvin Hobbes
  58. @DanHessinMD
    I think this would be a really stupid hill for conservatives to fight on. Virtually everyone who saw the video intuit that Chauvin's behavior was really wrong on a moral level. And it was.

    "But, but, it is the principle of the thing."

    Trump conservatives have often rightly pointed out that the bowtie conservatives have been completely out of touch with where everyday people are at as the bowtie conservatives pursued a pure conservatism. Losing the Senate to preserve conservative principles on stimulus in the middle of a pandemic is a great example.

    Well I would say that people defending Chauvin are being like the bowtie conservatives usually are -- stuck on principle with no common sense.

    Chauvin is not a nice guy, like, at all. A dude couldn't breathe and kept saying so. Chauvin wouldn't get off of him for a really long time. Many minutes. Who does that? Is 1 in 1000 among us that merciless?

    I get that the fentanyl may have what killed Floyd. I get that Chauvin could have gotten off of George Floyd at the beginning and he might have still died.

    But Chauvin was so hard-hearted it is mind-boggling -- as unsympathetic a figure as you can get. His brutishness --and you have to be a real brute not to react for such a long time when someone underneath you begs that he can't breathe -- really damaged law and order in this country to where the homicide rate has soared. And Floyd was barely moving and was totally outnumbered anyway. There wasn't even any need.

    Yes I get it about the fentanyl.

    I rooted for George Zimmerman throughout his trial because he literally killed to save his own life from a position of being dominated and he had the injures on the back of his head to prove it.

    Chauvin by contrast had total power as a man beneath him was begging for his life -- and Chauvin just wouldn't move. Yes, I understand that maybe Floyd was dying anyway. But thousands people died in the wake of his unnecessary brutishness. If Chauvin is convicted it will feel just even if he technically could be acquitted.

    But also, a Chauvin acquittal would be bad for law and order. If police can behave that badly and not have consequences, they lose the Mandate of Heaven.

    Replies: @Anon, @AndrewR, @Not Only Wrathful, @Luzzatto, @Jack D, @anon, @Jack D, @TWS

    Chauvin calmly subdued Floyd by the book while Floyd was acting mental. Chauvin was even carefully instructing his racially diverse juniors on the textbook solution. Chauvin had nothing to do with Floyd’s death, and his knee on his neck was as stabbing a voodoo doll is to someone’s actual death – an extremely unfortunate coincidence.

    • Replies: @vhrm
    @Not Only Wrathful


    Chauvin had nothing to do with Floyd’s death
     
    While the murder charges are, imo, unwarranted, this is an overstatement.

    The knee was fine and good, but he did keep Floyd prone for a good long time after Floyd stopped moving and lost consciousness and they didn't flip him over or anything and even after Lane (or Keung) said he couldn't find a wrist pulse.

    (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8614589/First-length-bodycam-footage-shows-George-Floyds-harrowing-final-moments-brutal-arrest.html

    check the vid starting from ~16:30 (and ignore the rather inflammatory url) )

    (That said, that f'in heckler on the sidewalk was just NOT helping the situation. He's a huge source of stress and distraction in the critical portion of the video.

    Speaking entirely outside of any legal liability context, Floyd might have lived if that guy would have just STFU and let them think/focus instead of taunting them for 15 minutes straight. No wonder people kill each other "in the community" )

    Replies: @Nicholas Stix, @Chrisnonymous

  59. @Some Guy
    As someone who isn't American, I don't get how there's even a trial if Chauvin was just following official police guidelines of putting knees on necks for excited delirium. Surely whoever decided on the guidelines is responsible?

    Replies: @anonymous, @Not Only Wrathful

    Yes, exactly. The knee on neck thing looks ugly but is proven as effective in difficult scenarios where social work won’t cut it. But that’s not even relevant.

    Chauvin was following established police procedures and was obviously not trying to kill anyone. Once those two facts are accepted, he is no more responsible for Floyd’s death, even if the knee on neck contributed (which it clearly didn’t), than someone who runs over a child because their car goes forward when it is in reverse.

    The child would have been a complete innocent, but we don’t hold people responsible for murder for sensibly following established norms in difficult situations. It would certainly make sense to investigate the knee on neck procedure again, but the body of evidence is already very clear, it isn’t the problem. Progressives are extreme in their blood lust. That is all.

    • Agree: GomezAdddams, sayless
    • Replies: @Redman
    @Not Only Wrathful

    Exactly. That’s the foundational concept of many a medical malpractice action.

    Was the doctor following accepted protocol when she hooked up granny to the ventilator that wound up killing her?

  60. @gent
    @Guy De Champlagne

    The restraint had nothing to do with his overdosing. That hold is not capable of obstructing the airway.

    Replies: @Guy De Champlagne

    Common sense says that since Chauvin had nothing else to do but restrain Floyd and had two other cops with him he should have worked with Floyd to find him a more comfortable position.

    Chauvin also had every reason to know how bad what he was doing looked because there was a crowd freaking out about it.

    I’d sooner believe that being restrained in that awkward position actually helped Floyd than that it had no effect whatsoever. But I’m not any kind of expert and am couching things in terms of how they look to everyday people.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Guy De Champlagne

    Common sense says that since Chauvin had nothing else to do but restrain Floyd and had two other cops with him he should have worked with Floyd to find him a more comfortable position.

    He was on the ground because he proved uncontrollable in the car.

    Replies: @Guy De Champlagne

    , @TWS
    @Guy De Champlagne

    Gotta agree you're no kind of expert. Plus, your observations stink. Hopefully, the rest of America hasn't reached idiocracy yet

  61. My 14 year old son is at the age now where he’s starting to form political opinions laced with adolescent masculinity and internet bravado (sounds familiar!). He was telling me in a very confident and cocksure way the other day that “Chauvin’s gonna walk!”

    I had to sit him down and explain the modern American judicial tradition of racial blood sacrifice and double jeopardy from the feds.

    Chauvin’s fate is sealed, regardless of the evidence or even the outcome of this particular trial. And it has been since the moment they filed charges against him.

  62. @Not Only Wrathful
    @DanHessinMD

    Chauvin calmly subdued Floyd by the book while Floyd was acting mental. Chauvin was even carefully instructing his racially diverse juniors on the textbook solution. Chauvin had nothing to do with Floyd's death, and his knee on his neck was as stabbing a voodoo doll is to someone's actual death - an extremely unfortunate coincidence.

    Replies: @vhrm

    Chauvin had nothing to do with Floyd’s death

    While the murder charges are, imo, unwarranted, this is an overstatement.

    The knee was fine and good, but he did keep Floyd prone for a good long time after Floyd stopped moving and lost consciousness and they didn’t flip him over or anything and even after Lane (or Keung) said he couldn’t find a wrist pulse.

    (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8614589/First-length-bodycam-footage-shows-George-Floyds-harrowing-final-moments-brutal-arrest.html

    check the vid starting from ~16:30 (and ignore the rather inflammatory url) )

    (That said, that f’in heckler on the sidewalk was just NOT helping the situation. He’s a huge source of stress and distraction in the critical portion of the video.

    Speaking entirely outside of any legal liability context, Floyd might have lived if that guy would have just STFU and let them think/focus instead of taunting them for 15 minutes straight. No wonder people kill each other “in the community” )

    • Thanks: Not Only Wrathful
    • Replies: @Nicholas Stix
    @vhrm

    So, maybe Hennepin County ought to charge the heckler for criminal facilitation, and leave the cops alone.

    , @Chrisnonymous
    @vhrm

    This is the most objective and enlightened perspective. Good hospitals employ root cause analysis when mistakes happen, to identify the causes. A root cause analysis on this situation would indeed show that Chauvin is a middling human driven by fear and pride, and the heckler is likely to have been the cause of his failure to deal with the situation appropriately.

  63. @DanHessinMD
    I think this would be a really stupid hill for conservatives to fight on. Virtually everyone who saw the video intuit that Chauvin's behavior was really wrong on a moral level. And it was.

    "But, but, it is the principle of the thing."

    Trump conservatives have often rightly pointed out that the bowtie conservatives have been completely out of touch with where everyday people are at as the bowtie conservatives pursued a pure conservatism. Losing the Senate to preserve conservative principles on stimulus in the middle of a pandemic is a great example.

    Well I would say that people defending Chauvin are being like the bowtie conservatives usually are -- stuck on principle with no common sense.

    Chauvin is not a nice guy, like, at all. A dude couldn't breathe and kept saying so. Chauvin wouldn't get off of him for a really long time. Many minutes. Who does that? Is 1 in 1000 among us that merciless?

    I get that the fentanyl may have what killed Floyd. I get that Chauvin could have gotten off of George Floyd at the beginning and he might have still died.

    But Chauvin was so hard-hearted it is mind-boggling -- as unsympathetic a figure as you can get. His brutishness --and you have to be a real brute not to react for such a long time when someone underneath you begs that he can't breathe -- really damaged law and order in this country to where the homicide rate has soared. And Floyd was barely moving and was totally outnumbered anyway. There wasn't even any need.

    Yes I get it about the fentanyl.

    I rooted for George Zimmerman throughout his trial because he literally killed to save his own life from a position of being dominated and he had the injures on the back of his head to prove it.

    Chauvin by contrast had total power as a man beneath him was begging for his life -- and Chauvin just wouldn't move. Yes, I understand that maybe Floyd was dying anyway. But thousands people died in the wake of his unnecessary brutishness. If Chauvin is convicted it will feel just even if he technically could be acquitted.

    But also, a Chauvin acquittal would be bad for law and order. If police can behave that badly and not have consequences, they lose the Mandate of Heaven.

    Replies: @Anon, @AndrewR, @Not Only Wrathful, @Luzzatto, @Jack D, @anon, @Jack D, @TWS

    If George Floyd was some high as fuck White Trash Junkie I wonder how many people here on The Unz would still say that Derek Chauvin was correct to keep his knee on handcuffed George’s neck for over 9 minutes? I’m guessing Derek Chauvin would no longer be their hero.

    George Floyd was handcuffed so it’s not like he could break Derek Chauvin’s jaws with his fists!

    • Replies: @Nicholas Stix
    @Luzzatto

    When someone speaks the wisdom of the gutter, I find it impossible to contradict him.

    , @njguy73
    @Luzzatto

    If George Floyd was White, no one outside of his hometown would have heard of him, or given a crap about him if they knew.

    Replies: @Luzzatto, @obwandiyag

  64. @JohnPlywood
    @njguy73

    I hardly ever hear any of these names in the lamestream media. It's like a once-every-couple-of-years, obscured under more relevant headlines type of thing. Maybe once per decade they get blown up again for a short while, usually whenever something big comes up (such as the fact that Emmett Till's accuser was an admitted liar, and that the Central Park 5 were innocent).

    The only people who think of these cases and still talk about them are fringe Leftist activists and their far-Right reflections in the mirror. Regular people have forgotten about them. The average guy on the street doesn't know who Emmet Till or the Central Park 5 were. I've never even heard of the Scottsboro boys before (don't want to know, either).

    Giving these cases attention doesn't seem to be helping the Right win anything tangible. Better to just let the Left fuel these flames with their own coal.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Hallie Scott Kline, @Paperback Writer, @AceDeuce, @Patrick McNally

    I read of these names all the time.

  65. “But the state may be able to evade that basic premise of Anglo-American law and turn the burden of proof around.”

    Based on the principles of Anglo-American law, the U.S. Constitution, and precedent, there is no possible justification for a single charge against the cops in this case.

    • Troll: Corvinus
    • Replies: @Luzzatto
    @Nicholas Stix

    Derek Chauvin would have even less of a chance of beating this case if it had happened in England and England is the motherfucking Anglo law motherland. It's does not get more Anglo than England!

  66. @vhrm
    @Not Only Wrathful


    Chauvin had nothing to do with Floyd’s death
     
    While the murder charges are, imo, unwarranted, this is an overstatement.

    The knee was fine and good, but he did keep Floyd prone for a good long time after Floyd stopped moving and lost consciousness and they didn't flip him over or anything and even after Lane (or Keung) said he couldn't find a wrist pulse.

    (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8614589/First-length-bodycam-footage-shows-George-Floyds-harrowing-final-moments-brutal-arrest.html

    check the vid starting from ~16:30 (and ignore the rather inflammatory url) )

    (That said, that f'in heckler on the sidewalk was just NOT helping the situation. He's a huge source of stress and distraction in the critical portion of the video.

    Speaking entirely outside of any legal liability context, Floyd might have lived if that guy would have just STFU and let them think/focus instead of taunting them for 15 minutes straight. No wonder people kill each other "in the community" )

    Replies: @Nicholas Stix, @Chrisnonymous

    So, maybe Hennepin County ought to charge the heckler for criminal facilitation, and leave the cops alone.

    • Agree: Redman
  67. Fuck Derek Chauvin. His irresponsible actions created a butterfly effect that has led The United States to go full retard on Cancel Culture/Wokeness. Derek Chauvin is the worst thing to ever happen to The Right because we get blamed for his fuck up and now we are all being Cancel Cultured!

  68. @Luzzatto
    @DanHessinMD

    If George Floyd was some high as fuck White Trash Junkie I wonder how many people here on The Unz would still say that Derek Chauvin was correct to keep his knee on handcuffed George's neck for over 9 minutes? I'm guessing Derek Chauvin would no longer be their hero.

    George Floyd was handcuffed so it's not like he could break Derek Chauvin's jaws with his fists!

    Replies: @Nicholas Stix, @njguy73

    When someone speaks the wisdom of the gutter, I find it impossible to contradict him.

  69. @Nicholas Stix
    "But the state may be able to evade that basic premise of Anglo-American law and turn the burden of proof around."

    Based on the principles of Anglo-American law, the U.S. Constitution, and precedent, there is no possible justification for a single charge against the cops in this case.

    Replies: @Luzzatto

    Derek Chauvin would have even less of a chance of beating this case if it had happened in England and England is the motherfucking Anglo law motherland. It’s does not get more Anglo than England!

  70. @Wilkey
    1) Contra the video most people have seen, the bodycam footage shows the police acting very professionally.

    2) The tactics used by the cops were accepted practice by the Minneapolis PD, whose chief is a black man.

    3) Floyd's statement that he couldn't breath began before they had him on the ground. The officers had called and were waiting for an ambulance. It ain't their fault that the ambulance took so damn long to get there.

    4) The tox screen shows he had probably lethal levels of illegal narcotics in his system. This is what's called reasonable doubt - a solid explanation for his death that had nothing to do with the actions of the officers.

    Derek Chauvin should almost certainly be acquitted, unless they've rigged the outcome. The problem is what happens if/when he is acquitted. Democrats aren't prepared for the hell that will break loose when that happens. My guess is they will use the verdict as yet more evidence that we need "racial reconciliation." Be prepared for an even bigger push for quotas, reparations, and God only knows what else to make up for this supposed injustice. The question is how whites and Republicans respond: yet another surrender to the mob, or will more of us finally and emphatically call them on their bullshit?

    Replies: @anonymous, @J.Ross, @Jack D, @Steve from Detroit

    Very little chance of an outright acquittal. Hopefully a hung jury will not be enough to provoke rioting. They retry him a couple of more times and give up because they can never get a unanimous verdict to convict and by his 3rd trial people will have lost interest. That’s the best possible outcome.

    2nd best is that he’s convicted of some lesser offense. Does a couple of years and then is quietly released on parole. If you look at the greatest good for the greatest # of people, it’s better for Chauvin to do a couple of years than for half of America to burn again and numerous people to die in the rioting. It sucks for Chauvin but sometimes you gotta take one for the team. The shopkeepers of MN should take up a collection for Chauvin because it would be cheaper to pay him to sit in prison than for every retail premises to be looted.

    TBH, whether or not Floyd ODed, Chauvin is guilty of SOMETHING. Being stubborn and stupid at the very least. Even if the primary cause of death was the Fentanyl, keeping Floyd in that position for so long didn’t help. I don’t care what his training said, at some point you have to adjust to the situation and not just keep doing the same thing. Yes at the beginning Floyd is talking up a storm and clearly getting air. But at some point he blacks out and Chauvin still doesn’t move a muscle. I’m guessing that being heckled by the crowd didn’t help – he didn’t want to back down and lose face. Pride cometh before the fall.

    BTW, the evidence of overdose is very marginal. Addicts like Floyd develop tolerance to opiates so that a dose that would kill a horse just gives them a pleasant buzz.

    • Replies: @Inquiring Mind
    @Jack D

    Yes, being stubborn and stupid makes a person guilty of something, if others on iSteve know what one is talking about.

    , @Buffalo Joe
    @Jack D

    Jack, your point about the optics is very true. Chauvin could have adjusted his position and still held Floyd secure...I think. But, I wasn't the one trying to control this very large man. And a "buzz" for him and an overdose death for another has already been disputed in three separate ME reports. Lethal dosage means death. But we are good. Stay safe.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Redman

    , @Jim Christian
    @Jack D

    The greatest good is that he walks and the blue cities burn some more. Looters everywhere are praying for the cop to walk so they can loot some more. SJW types, reporters, news media of all sorts, Soros, they're all hoping the cop is found not guilty. When it comes to blue cities, I'm flat out of sympathy. They hate me, I hate them. Whites stupid enough to march with the BLM hoards after the cop walks deserve the beatings they'll receive. Gonna be a beautiful, long, hot summer with blue cities rendered uninhabitable, although like in Syria, they will mostly be bouncing the rubble. I'm good with all of it. The 2022 mid terms are coming.

    , @AnotherDad
    @Jack D

    Jack, why have you wasted your life as yet-another-lawyer, hiding out in some office pushing around paper. If only we had your brains out on the street, instead of these goyishe kopfs, racial harmony would be at hand.

    I eagerly await the Officer JackD subdues overdosing big black thug with perfectly calibrated use of force video.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Dieter Kief

    , @AnotherDad
    @Jack D


    BTW, the evidence of overdose is very marginal.
     
    Except Floyd is ... dead.
    And
    -- he sat in his car doing nothing to leave the scene after passing his fake bill
    -- he did a big freak out when the cops tried to put him in the car
    -- he was doing his "i can't breathe" shtick before the cops were kneeling on him
    -- the first--non-political--autopsy showed no sign of trauma to windpipe nor forced asphyxiation but rather that Floyd died of a heart attack, with a bunch of fentanyl, meth, signs of heart disease and covid-19 (probably PCRing up previous month's infection)

    So yeah, other than the actual evidence of Floyd's behavior and his autopsy the overdose theory is marginal.

    Replies: @Mike Tre

    , @Art Deco
    @Jack D

    BTW, the evidence of overdose is very marginal.

    Except that the level of fentanyl in his femoral blood was about what you'd expect of an overdose death - right in the middle. And his breathing problems (which emerged when he was sitting bolt upright) are what you expect of a fentanyl overdose as your lungs fill up with fluid. And he had no injury to his trachea or his neck muscles. And it would have been physically impossible for Chauvin to have compressed both carotid arteries while using just one knee (if he even compressed one of them).

    , @anon
    @Jack D

    They got a 3rd degree murder charge slipped in.


    Minnesota law originally defined third-degree murder solely as depraved-heart murder ("without intent to effect the death of any person, caus[ing] the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life").[7][8] In 1987, an additional drug-related provision ("without intent to cause death, proximately caus[ing] the death of a human being by, directly or indirectly, unlawfully selling, giving away, bartering, delivering, exchanging, distributing, or administering a controlled substance classified in Schedule I or II") was added to the definition of third-degree murder.
     
    The prosecutors are hell bent to get this charge included. Although they should charge the guy who sold Floyd the fentynol.

    Replies: @Jack D

  71. @Steve Sailer
    @JohnPlywood

    Are you living at the bottom of a salt mine in some experiment to see how out of touch a human being can become?

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous, @Paperback Writer

    Thanks, Steve. JohnPlywood is insufferable.

  72. @JohnPlywood
    @vhrm

    The bigger picture regarding false prosecutions is not Derek Chauvin's case, but the obscenely high rate of exoneration among inner black males.


    Despite making up about 12% of the US population, blacks are 62% of DNA exonerees.


    https://sites.law.duke.edu/forensicsforum/2020/06/05/race-and-dna-exonerations/

    https://sites.law.duke.edu/forensicsforum/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/2020/06/Screen-Shot-2020-06-05-at-2.24.59-PM.png


    Among DNA exonerations a stunning 80 percent were racial minorities. Most striking, 75% of the exonerees who were convicted of rape were black or Latino, while studies indicate that only approximately 30% to 40% of all rape convicts are minorities.
     
    You can help make the world a better place, by donating your income to black and Hispanic inmates. After all, if Blackstone's ratio is true, you'd be every bit in the wrong as Chauvin's prosecutors, by focusing on Derek Chauvin rather than the much larger pool of wrongful convictions among black and Hispanic males. Better for 1 cop to go down than for 10 innocent Black men to be jailed. And keeping Chauvin out of uniform reduces his chances of arresting an innocent person.


    Take heart, freedom fighters of Unz. We're going to all liberfied up in this bitch.

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @Chrisnonymous, @Negrolphin Pool, @Keypusher, @Patrick McNally

    the obscenely high rate of exoneration among inner black males.

    I often feel I am unfairly neglected and not given my due. I consider this my “inner black male”. What do you?

    • Thanks: JohnPlywood
  73. @vhrm
    @Not Only Wrathful


    Chauvin had nothing to do with Floyd’s death
     
    While the murder charges are, imo, unwarranted, this is an overstatement.

    The knee was fine and good, but he did keep Floyd prone for a good long time after Floyd stopped moving and lost consciousness and they didn't flip him over or anything and even after Lane (or Keung) said he couldn't find a wrist pulse.

    (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8614589/First-length-bodycam-footage-shows-George-Floyds-harrowing-final-moments-brutal-arrest.html

    check the vid starting from ~16:30 (and ignore the rather inflammatory url) )

    (That said, that f'in heckler on the sidewalk was just NOT helping the situation. He's a huge source of stress and distraction in the critical portion of the video.

    Speaking entirely outside of any legal liability context, Floyd might have lived if that guy would have just STFU and let them think/focus instead of taunting them for 15 minutes straight. No wonder people kill each other "in the community" )

    Replies: @Nicholas Stix, @Chrisnonymous

    This is the most objective and enlightened perspective. Good hospitals employ root cause analysis when mistakes happen, to identify the causes. A root cause analysis on this situation would indeed show that Chauvin is a middling human driven by fear and pride, and the heckler is likely to have been the cause of his failure to deal with the situation appropriately.

  74. @DanHessinMD
    I think this would be a really stupid hill for conservatives to fight on. Virtually everyone who saw the video intuit that Chauvin's behavior was really wrong on a moral level. And it was.

    "But, but, it is the principle of the thing."

    Trump conservatives have often rightly pointed out that the bowtie conservatives have been completely out of touch with where everyday people are at as the bowtie conservatives pursued a pure conservatism. Losing the Senate to preserve conservative principles on stimulus in the middle of a pandemic is a great example.

    Well I would say that people defending Chauvin are being like the bowtie conservatives usually are -- stuck on principle with no common sense.

    Chauvin is not a nice guy, like, at all. A dude couldn't breathe and kept saying so. Chauvin wouldn't get off of him for a really long time. Many minutes. Who does that? Is 1 in 1000 among us that merciless?

    I get that the fentanyl may have what killed Floyd. I get that Chauvin could have gotten off of George Floyd at the beginning and he might have still died.

    But Chauvin was so hard-hearted it is mind-boggling -- as unsympathetic a figure as you can get. His brutishness --and you have to be a real brute not to react for such a long time when someone underneath you begs that he can't breathe -- really damaged law and order in this country to where the homicide rate has soared. And Floyd was barely moving and was totally outnumbered anyway. There wasn't even any need.

    Yes I get it about the fentanyl.

    I rooted for George Zimmerman throughout his trial because he literally killed to save his own life from a position of being dominated and he had the injures on the back of his head to prove it.

    Chauvin by contrast had total power as a man beneath him was begging for his life -- and Chauvin just wouldn't move. Yes, I understand that maybe Floyd was dying anyway. But thousands people died in the wake of his unnecessary brutishness. If Chauvin is convicted it will feel just even if he technically could be acquitted.

    But also, a Chauvin acquittal would be bad for law and order. If police can behave that badly and not have consequences, they lose the Mandate of Heaven.

    Replies: @Anon, @AndrewR, @Not Only Wrathful, @Luzzatto, @Jack D, @anon, @Jack D, @TWS

    I don’t think an acquittal for Chauvin is in the cards. Even if he is by some miracle fully acquitted by all jurors (including the black jurors) on all state charges, that is just going to trigger a federal indictment against him. I really think the best outcome for Chauvin and for society at this point is for him to be convicted of some lesser offense (clearly not intentional homicide – whatever he was trying to do he didn’t really intend to kill Floyd). Chauvin is guilty of SOMETHING. Unfortunately, being stubborn and stupid is not a crime in and of itself so they are going to have to find some charge.

    Chauvin’s crime began not when Floyd begged for help but when he STOPPED begging. Jeez, there was a point where the other cops could no longer find a pulse – he was literally dead and STILL the idiot kept his knee on him. Just because this has turned into a racial case doesn’t mean that Chauvin is completely innocent. We are supposed to have a system of justice, not a system of racial solidarity.

    • Agree: Johnny Smoggins
    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
    @Jack D


    Jeez, there was a point where the other cops could no longer find a pulse – he was literally dead and STILL the idiot kept his knee on him.
     
    A severely sedated person with a dysfunctional lung and a police officer hastily trying to find a pulse can't find any is by not "literally dead".

    Not even necessarily dead.

    Btw. - George Floyd was pronounced dead at 9:25 - 1hour+ after he had been brought to the hospital.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    , @Matt Buckalew
    @Jack D

    Just pretends Chauvin is IDF and that Floyd is a Palestinian chickpea farmer with a chip on his shoulder from having to wait three hours at an IDF checkpoint.

  75. @Jiminy
    Just blame the Israelis for pushing the knee to the neck procedure. If it’s alright for the Israelis to perform, then that should be all that needs to be said.

    Replies: @anon

    Just blame the Israelis for pushing the knee to the neck procedure.

    Do you have a citation?

    • Replies: @Jiminy
    @anon

    Last year there were several articles on ur detailing how police are sent on junkets to Israel, funded often by Jewish lobby groups. It’s either there or back in the US that the cops are taught the restraint positions that the Israelis use on the arabs on a regular basis. The ever popular knee to the head is one of them. If the Israelis are making use of it, then it obviously can’t be dangerous.

  76. @Jack D
    @Wilkey

    Very little chance of an outright acquittal. Hopefully a hung jury will not be enough to provoke rioting. They retry him a couple of more times and give up because they can never get a unanimous verdict to convict and by his 3rd trial people will have lost interest. That's the best possible outcome.

    2nd best is that he's convicted of some lesser offense. Does a couple of years and then is quietly released on parole. If you look at the greatest good for the greatest # of people, it's better for Chauvin to do a couple of years than for half of America to burn again and numerous people to die in the rioting. It sucks for Chauvin but sometimes you gotta take one for the team. The shopkeepers of MN should take up a collection for Chauvin because it would be cheaper to pay him to sit in prison than for every retail premises to be looted.

    TBH, whether or not Floyd ODed, Chauvin is guilty of SOMETHING. Being stubborn and stupid at the very least. Even if the primary cause of death was the Fentanyl, keeping Floyd in that position for so long didn't help. I don't care what his training said, at some point you have to adjust to the situation and not just keep doing the same thing. Yes at the beginning Floyd is talking up a storm and clearly getting air. But at some point he blacks out and Chauvin still doesn't move a muscle. I'm guessing that being heckled by the crowd didn't help - he didn't want to back down and lose face. Pride cometh before the fall.

    BTW, the evidence of overdose is very marginal. Addicts like Floyd develop tolerance to opiates so that a dose that would kill a horse just gives them a pleasant buzz.

    Replies: @Inquiring Mind, @Buffalo Joe, @Jim Christian, @AnotherDad, @AnotherDad, @Art Deco, @anon

    Yes, being stubborn and stupid makes a person guilty of something, if others on iSteve know what one is talking about.

  77. @Jack D
    @Wilkey

    Very little chance of an outright acquittal. Hopefully a hung jury will not be enough to provoke rioting. They retry him a couple of more times and give up because they can never get a unanimous verdict to convict and by his 3rd trial people will have lost interest. That's the best possible outcome.

    2nd best is that he's convicted of some lesser offense. Does a couple of years and then is quietly released on parole. If you look at the greatest good for the greatest # of people, it's better for Chauvin to do a couple of years than for half of America to burn again and numerous people to die in the rioting. It sucks for Chauvin but sometimes you gotta take one for the team. The shopkeepers of MN should take up a collection for Chauvin because it would be cheaper to pay him to sit in prison than for every retail premises to be looted.

    TBH, whether or not Floyd ODed, Chauvin is guilty of SOMETHING. Being stubborn and stupid at the very least. Even if the primary cause of death was the Fentanyl, keeping Floyd in that position for so long didn't help. I don't care what his training said, at some point you have to adjust to the situation and not just keep doing the same thing. Yes at the beginning Floyd is talking up a storm and clearly getting air. But at some point he blacks out and Chauvin still doesn't move a muscle. I'm guessing that being heckled by the crowd didn't help - he didn't want to back down and lose face. Pride cometh before the fall.

    BTW, the evidence of overdose is very marginal. Addicts like Floyd develop tolerance to opiates so that a dose that would kill a horse just gives them a pleasant buzz.

    Replies: @Inquiring Mind, @Buffalo Joe, @Jim Christian, @AnotherDad, @AnotherDad, @Art Deco, @anon

    Jack, your point about the optics is very true. Chauvin could have adjusted his position and still held Floyd secure…I think. But, I wasn’t the one trying to control this very large man. And a “buzz” for him and an overdose death for another has already been disputed in three separate ME reports. Lethal dosage means death. But we are good. Stay safe.

    • Agree: Redman
    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Buffalo Joe

    Joe, please read the link that Steve gives at the head of this post. The author (who seems knowledgeable and fair minded) says:


    Very roughly and with all possible caveats, this [Floyd's] concentration seems to be more or less on the high end of non-addict overdoses and on the low end of addict overdoses. Would it certainly, without a doubt have killed him? Can’t say.
     
    Implying, as we know, that addict and non-addict overdoses for opiates are at different levels because addicts gain tolerance to them. There is not one single lethal dose level for opiates. Sadly, this is why the people who die of drug overdose are often not the most hardened addicts but people who have just started using or even using for the first time.

    Aside from that, lethal dose is usually expressed as "LD50" which means that this is the concentration at which 50% of recipients can be expected to die. In fact that's how they determine the lethal dose - they give the drug in increasing concentration to mice or some other animal and they measure the level at which half of them drop dead. In other words, even at the so called "lethal" dose, half of all recipients survive.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

    , @Redman
    @Buffalo Joe

    If you watch the other video (from the bodycam), you'll see that another cop was sitting on Floyd's legs. He's not visible at all in the famous phone video, because he's blocked out by the car.

    That officer was providing most of the leverage keeping Floyd immobile. We get a lot more power from our lower body than from our neck. I suspect that Chauvin was applying only minimal pressure to Floyd's neck, and the reason Floyd seemed so prostrate was from the force being applied to his lower body.

  78. Going to law school in middle-age has been a very disillusioning experience.

    While I won’t prejudge until we see everything that gets presented at trial, based on what we know now, there ought to be more than enough reasonable doubt for an acquittal. In principle.

    My guess is that the jury will land on the manslaughter charge. It’s at least a somewhat closer question than the murder charge, and if they feel compelled to convict him for something, this will feel kinda-sorta OK.

    This is probably why the murder charge is there in the first place — not because prosecutors expect to win on that, but to make manslaughter the “compromise” solution rather than the upper bound.

    • Agree: Jim Don Bob
  79. @Whiskey
    Slam dunk, Chauvin is convicted on all counts. He's White. He committed a crime of enforcing the law against a black man, and all black men are exempt and above the law. Just existing as a White man is a crime. So he's going to be convicted.

    Really, what did anyone expect out of Civil Rights? White men will either be on top or on bottom. There is no middle ground. There is no "lets all get along." There is no end to the war against White men until the last of us is dead. That's just the way it is.

    All that being said, there will be riots and riots and get Whitey street restorative justice "adjustment" from well, now to forever. It will never stop. Any black person has the perfect right by LAW and CUSTOM to do whatever they want to you, in the name of Civil Rights, and you have no right or defense to resist. After all, its your fault White men that vibrant young youths of color beat elderly Asian people, sometimes to death.

    If you are White, your existence is a crime against nature: Martin Luther King said so. So does Obama. If you are a White man, well you are the epitome of evil, and again Martin Luther King said so, and so did Obama. And Oprah. And Charlize Theron. And Captain Marvel. And Princess Megan. And President Harris.

    As Machiavelli said, it is better to be feared than loved.

    Replies: @Jim Christian, @kpkinsunnyphiladelphia, @TomSchmidt

    They’ll run through Whites stupid enough to get within 500 miles of blacks. If they come looking for more, they’ll run into the Whites who fight back, in majority White regions. Let me know how that works out. blacks hate when you fight back. They’ll lose all interest in the project at that point.

  80. @Jack D
    Not going well for Chauvin - they have already seated several blacks on the jury even though the city is mostly white. This is a race case and the only thing that matters is the race of the jury. We saw in the OJ case that in race cases evidence is irrelevant. The best Chauvin can hope for now is a hung jury.

    Replies: @JohnPlywood, @Anonymous, @Gordo, @Redman, @Paperback Writer, @Art Deco

    I tried a civil case in St. Paul in 2008. The jury was one of the best and most educated I’d ever seen for a 2-3 week trial.

    Not sure if it’s the same in a Minneapolis criminal case.

  81. @The Last Real Calvinist
    For day-to-day coverage of the Chauvin trial, Power Line is excellent.

    Their report for Day 2 of the trial is here: LINK

    Replies: @Barnard

    Power Line does well on covering Minneapolis cases like this, their coverage of the Noor trial was also excellent. Based on Scott Johnson’s reporting, the jury selection process has been terrible for the defense. Each side gets a limited number of dismissals and the defense has had almost no success getting people who are barely stopping short of saying they can’t wait to convict Chauvin dismissed for cause. On the first day, the judge wouldn’t even dismiss a woman who it was not clear was fluent in English for cause. The prosecution is striking anyone who indicates they have any unapproved knowledge about the case or is it all critical of the rioting that happened afterward. I was expecting a hung jury going into this, but unless the jury selection process improves, it isn’t looking good for the defense.

  82. @anonymous
    @Wilkey


    3) Floyd’s statement that he couldn’t breath began before they had him on the ground.
     
    If Floyd was talking—and he did a lot of talking—he was breathing. That is the essential fact here holds true whether he was standing up or lying down.

    Replies: @Redman

    Will the prosecution call the family’s hired gun medical examiner who gave his second opinion based on watching the video?

    He’s the same guy who was roundly booed by the MSM when he concluded Jeff Epstein didn’t hang himself. Funny how that works.

  83. In addition to having a lethal amount of drugs in his system, Floyd was still fighting the deadly Coronavirus when he died. Floyd would have been listed as another COVID fatality if he was a white man. CV certainly makes it harder to breath and has been known to cause heart attacks. Maybe the combination of taking drugs while fighting coronavirus killed him.

  84. @Jack D
    @Wilkey

    Very little chance of an outright acquittal. Hopefully a hung jury will not be enough to provoke rioting. They retry him a couple of more times and give up because they can never get a unanimous verdict to convict and by his 3rd trial people will have lost interest. That's the best possible outcome.

    2nd best is that he's convicted of some lesser offense. Does a couple of years and then is quietly released on parole. If you look at the greatest good for the greatest # of people, it's better for Chauvin to do a couple of years than for half of America to burn again and numerous people to die in the rioting. It sucks for Chauvin but sometimes you gotta take one for the team. The shopkeepers of MN should take up a collection for Chauvin because it would be cheaper to pay him to sit in prison than for every retail premises to be looted.

    TBH, whether or not Floyd ODed, Chauvin is guilty of SOMETHING. Being stubborn and stupid at the very least. Even if the primary cause of death was the Fentanyl, keeping Floyd in that position for so long didn't help. I don't care what his training said, at some point you have to adjust to the situation and not just keep doing the same thing. Yes at the beginning Floyd is talking up a storm and clearly getting air. But at some point he blacks out and Chauvin still doesn't move a muscle. I'm guessing that being heckled by the crowd didn't help - he didn't want to back down and lose face. Pride cometh before the fall.

    BTW, the evidence of overdose is very marginal. Addicts like Floyd develop tolerance to opiates so that a dose that would kill a horse just gives them a pleasant buzz.

    Replies: @Inquiring Mind, @Buffalo Joe, @Jim Christian, @AnotherDad, @AnotherDad, @Art Deco, @anon

    The greatest good is that he walks and the blue cities burn some more. Looters everywhere are praying for the cop to walk so they can loot some more. SJW types, reporters, news media of all sorts, Soros, they’re all hoping the cop is found not guilty. When it comes to blue cities, I’m flat out of sympathy. They hate me, I hate them. Whites stupid enough to march with the BLM hoards after the cop walks deserve the beatings they’ll receive. Gonna be a beautiful, long, hot summer with blue cities rendered uninhabitable, although like in Syria, they will mostly be bouncing the rubble. I’m good with all of it. The 2022 mid terms are coming.

  85. @vhrm
    @petit bourgeois


    Civilly, the plaintiffs’ bar against the cops uses forensic pathologists to say the drugs are not the cause of death, and the smothering or hobbling or positional asphyxiation is what killed him. The autopsy report will determine the outcome.
     
    The autopsy report is inconclusive. Basically there's nothing in there that can conclusively say the cops caused the death. From all the reporting and analysis it appears it's impossible to tell with any level of confidence just how much the fentanyl and his fluid filled lungs and enlarged heart contributed to his death. It could be 1%, 10% or 90%...
    If there's some model or paper or study that can say with any confidence nobody's mentioned it AFAIK.


    That said i'm guessing the city will settle the civil suit for some 7 or 8 figure amount if it can and not even have that trial.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @Abolish_public_education

    From all the reporting and analysis it appears it’s impossible to tell with any level of confidence just how much the fentanyl and his fluid filled lungs and enlarged heart contributed to his death. It could be 1%, 10% or 90%…

    Again, the level of fentanyl in his femoral blood was 11 nanograms per cc. That’s a lethal dose and that’s a middling figure for an overdose death.

    • Replies: @vhrm
    @Art Deco

    The medical/forensic comments i've seen point out that the fatal level for a given individual varies a LOT depending on their usage history and they're equivocal on whether that was a fatal dose for Floyd.

    If you have something solid that says otherwise i'd be glad to see it.

    For the 15+ minutes of interaction before he died he seemed relatively stable in his intoxicated state which is (afaik) not consistent with ODing on a fast acting opioid like fentanyl. For a snorted fentanyl w/o cocaine or something to offset it he should've been passing out within minutes.

    If they'd found some fentanyl in his stomach that suggested he'd just taken some that way and thus his blood level was still rising... then that would be more suggestive, but afaik they didn't.

    Not an expert and not saying that the fentanyl wasn't a big part of the story and possibly the majority of the story via reduced lung capacity / function, induced paranoia, etc., but the "he took too much fen and would have died anyway" is not very convincing given the available evidence.

    Replies: @anon, @Jack D, @Art Deco, @Chrisnonymous, @Negrolphin Pool

  86. @petit bourgeois
    The defense will get a forensic pathologist expert witness, who will say the cause of death was opioid overdose. Voir dire will be gnarly because race is all that matters in a jury trial, not the truth.

    Melvin Belli used to say: "No Chinaman on the jury." I'm surprised he is not cancelled, There are probably a lot of Hmong in the jury pool. I'm hoping the judge gives a directed verdict; but alas, I heard on National People's Radio this morning that the judge is a huge lefty.

    Civilly, the plaintiffs' bar against the cops uses forensic pathologists to say the drugs are not the cause of death, and the smothering or hobbling or positional asphyxiation is what killed him. The autopsy report will determine the outcome.

    Replies: @vhrm, @anonymous, @Polistra, @Art Deco

    The defense will get a forensic pathologist expert witness, who will say the cause of death was opioid overdose. Voir dire will be gnarly because race is all that matters in a jury trial, not the truth.

    His trachea and his neck muscles were uninjured.

    I don’t think even Michael Baden contended that positional asphyxia caused his death. The argument was that Chauvin’s knee constricted the carotid artery. Problem, you’ve got two carotid arteries.

  87. @Guy De Champlagne
    @gent

    Common sense says that since Chauvin had nothing else to do but restrain Floyd and had two other cops with him he should have worked with Floyd to find him a more comfortable position.

    Chauvin also had every reason to know how bad what he was doing looked because there was a crowd freaking out about it.

    I'd sooner believe that being restrained in that awkward position actually helped Floyd than that it had no effect whatsoever. But I'm not any kind of expert and am couching things in terms of how they look to everyday people.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @TWS

    Common sense says that since Chauvin had nothing else to do but restrain Floyd and had two other cops with him he should have worked with Floyd to find him a more comfortable position.

    He was on the ground because he proved uncontrollable in the car.

    • Replies: @Guy De Champlagne
    @Art Deco

    But the situation changed and Floyd started losing consciousness. There's no reasonable expectation that Chauvin be aware of that and modify his behavior?

    Replies: @Art Deco

  88. @Not Only Wrathful
    @Some Guy

    Yes, exactly. The knee on neck thing looks ugly but is proven as effective in difficult scenarios where social work won't cut it. But that's not even relevant.

    Chauvin was following established police procedures and was obviously not trying to kill anyone. Once those two facts are accepted, he is no more responsible for Floyd's death, even if the knee on neck contributed (which it clearly didn't), than someone who runs over a child because their car goes forward when it is in reverse.

    The child would have been a complete innocent, but we don't hold people responsible for murder for sensibly following established norms in difficult situations. It would certainly make sense to investigate the knee on neck procedure again, but the body of evidence is already very clear, it isn't the problem. Progressives are extreme in their blood lust. That is all.

    Replies: @Redman

    Exactly. That’s the foundational concept of many a medical malpractice action.

    Was the doctor following accepted protocol when she hooked up granny to the ventilator that wound up killing her?

  89. @Buffalo Joe
    @Jack D

    Jack, your point about the optics is very true. Chauvin could have adjusted his position and still held Floyd secure...I think. But, I wasn't the one trying to control this very large man. And a "buzz" for him and an overdose death for another has already been disputed in three separate ME reports. Lethal dosage means death. But we are good. Stay safe.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Redman

    Joe, please read the link that Steve gives at the head of this post. The author (who seems knowledgeable and fair minded) says:

    Very roughly and with all possible caveats, this [Floyd’s] concentration seems to be more or less on the high end of non-addict overdoses and on the low end of addict overdoses. Would it certainly, without a doubt have killed him? Can’t say.

    Implying, as we know, that addict and non-addict overdoses for opiates are at different levels because addicts gain tolerance to them. There is not one single lethal dose level for opiates. Sadly, this is why the people who die of drug overdose are often not the most hardened addicts but people who have just started using or even using for the first time.

    Aside from that, lethal dose is usually expressed as “LD50” which means that this is the concentration at which 50% of recipients can be expected to die. In fact that’s how they determine the lethal dose – they give the drug in increasing concentration to mice or some other animal and they measure the level at which half of them drop dead. In other words, even at the so called “lethal” dose, half of all recipients survive.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @Jack D

    Jack, thank you for the expanded explanation.

  90. @Jack D
    Not going well for Chauvin - they have already seated several blacks on the jury even though the city is mostly white. This is a race case and the only thing that matters is the race of the jury. We saw in the OJ case that in race cases evidence is irrelevant. The best Chauvin can hope for now is a hung jury.

    Replies: @JohnPlywood, @Anonymous, @Gordo, @Redman, @Paperback Writer, @Art Deco

    You’re right, but do you remember the Amadou Diallo case? They moved it upstate to Buffalo. Jury forewoman was black, originally from the Bronx. It looked terrible for the cops. Jury acquitted. Someone shoved a mic into the forewoman’s face after the trial and asked her about people’s feelz.

    She said, “tough.” Gutsy broad.

    I remember grousing & bitching but no rioting.

    But that was then and this is now. Chauvin’s dead meat.

  91. @JohnPlywood
    @njguy73

    I hardly ever hear any of these names in the lamestream media. It's like a once-every-couple-of-years, obscured under more relevant headlines type of thing. Maybe once per decade they get blown up again for a short while, usually whenever something big comes up (such as the fact that Emmett Till's accuser was an admitted liar, and that the Central Park 5 were innocent).

    The only people who think of these cases and still talk about them are fringe Leftist activists and their far-Right reflections in the mirror. Regular people have forgotten about them. The average guy on the street doesn't know who Emmet Till or the Central Park 5 were. I've never even heard of the Scottsboro boys before (don't want to know, either).

    Giving these cases attention doesn't seem to be helping the Right win anything tangible. Better to just let the Left fuel these flames with their own coal.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Hallie Scott Kline, @Paperback Writer, @AceDeuce, @Patrick McNally

    I hardly ever hear any of these names in the lamestream media.

    I don’t have a Nexis account anymore and my name ain’t Zach Goldberg, but I can tell you that those names have been literally consecrated and baked into the grievance cake.

    I have actually heard people say that “Trayvon was killed by the police.” When I say that he died in a fistfight with a neighbor, which is the most neutral way of describing it, I get stares of blank incomprehension and then a quick 180. The guy who killed him is white, so that’s the same thing.

    • Replies: @Pat Kittle
    @Paperback Writer


    “Trayvon was killed by the police.” When I say that he died in a fistfight with a neighbor...
     
    That implies that they both squared off in a fight they both entered voluntarily.

    In fact Trayvon (Patron Saint of the woke) died after ambushing his neighbor (George Zimmerman), after telling his girlfriend on the phone that he was get that "faggot" (or some similar anti-homosexual slur). Zimmerman only used lethal force when his head was being lethally pummeled into the pavement.

    As usual the awful truth has been thoroughly buried by (((pathologically anti-White media hucksters))).

  92. @Steve Sailer
    @JohnPlywood

    Are you living at the bottom of a salt mine in some experiment to see how out of touch a human being can become?

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous, @Paperback Writer

    Apologies for the off-topic hijacking, but I am hoping you’ll do a post on how utterly & completely Hollywood has caved to woke casting/producing. It’s gone way beyond anything the 1970s ever gave us. It’s now impossible to produce a movie without black “stars,”* and along with that, specifically black movies/series are dominant.

    *In what world is Tessa Thompson a movie star?

  93. anon[965] • Disclaimer says:
    @DanHessinMD
    I think this would be a really stupid hill for conservatives to fight on. Virtually everyone who saw the video intuit that Chauvin's behavior was really wrong on a moral level. And it was.

    "But, but, it is the principle of the thing."

    Trump conservatives have often rightly pointed out that the bowtie conservatives have been completely out of touch with where everyday people are at as the bowtie conservatives pursued a pure conservatism. Losing the Senate to preserve conservative principles on stimulus in the middle of a pandemic is a great example.

    Well I would say that people defending Chauvin are being like the bowtie conservatives usually are -- stuck on principle with no common sense.

    Chauvin is not a nice guy, like, at all. A dude couldn't breathe and kept saying so. Chauvin wouldn't get off of him for a really long time. Many minutes. Who does that? Is 1 in 1000 among us that merciless?

    I get that the fentanyl may have what killed Floyd. I get that Chauvin could have gotten off of George Floyd at the beginning and he might have still died.

    But Chauvin was so hard-hearted it is mind-boggling -- as unsympathetic a figure as you can get. His brutishness --and you have to be a real brute not to react for such a long time when someone underneath you begs that he can't breathe -- really damaged law and order in this country to where the homicide rate has soared. And Floyd was barely moving and was totally outnumbered anyway. There wasn't even any need.

    Yes I get it about the fentanyl.

    I rooted for George Zimmerman throughout his trial because he literally killed to save his own life from a position of being dominated and he had the injures on the back of his head to prove it.

    Chauvin by contrast had total power as a man beneath him was begging for his life -- and Chauvin just wouldn't move. Yes, I understand that maybe Floyd was dying anyway. But thousands people died in the wake of his unnecessary brutishness. If Chauvin is convicted it will feel just even if he technically could be acquitted.

    But also, a Chauvin acquittal would be bad for law and order. If police can behave that badly and not have consequences, they lose the Mandate of Heaven.

    Replies: @Anon, @AndrewR, @Not Only Wrathful, @Luzzatto, @Jack D, @anon, @Jack D, @TWS

    But also, a Chauvin acquittal would be bad for law and order.

    Isn’t that just extortion, of the “Some of your town is still nice, be a real shame if something bad happened, eh? Just go along with us and we’ll all get along”. Sort of what the Mafia used to do in some cities back in the past.

    You afraid of some more riots in Maryland, or just fond of throwing mere white working class plebes out of the sleigh, or what?

  94. @DanHessinMD
    I think this would be a really stupid hill for conservatives to fight on. Virtually everyone who saw the video intuit that Chauvin's behavior was really wrong on a moral level. And it was.

    "But, but, it is the principle of the thing."

    Trump conservatives have often rightly pointed out that the bowtie conservatives have been completely out of touch with where everyday people are at as the bowtie conservatives pursued a pure conservatism. Losing the Senate to preserve conservative principles on stimulus in the middle of a pandemic is a great example.

    Well I would say that people defending Chauvin are being like the bowtie conservatives usually are -- stuck on principle with no common sense.

    Chauvin is not a nice guy, like, at all. A dude couldn't breathe and kept saying so. Chauvin wouldn't get off of him for a really long time. Many minutes. Who does that? Is 1 in 1000 among us that merciless?

    I get that the fentanyl may have what killed Floyd. I get that Chauvin could have gotten off of George Floyd at the beginning and he might have still died.

    But Chauvin was so hard-hearted it is mind-boggling -- as unsympathetic a figure as you can get. His brutishness --and you have to be a real brute not to react for such a long time when someone underneath you begs that he can't breathe -- really damaged law and order in this country to where the homicide rate has soared. And Floyd was barely moving and was totally outnumbered anyway. There wasn't even any need.

    Yes I get it about the fentanyl.

    I rooted for George Zimmerman throughout his trial because he literally killed to save his own life from a position of being dominated and he had the injures on the back of his head to prove it.

    Chauvin by contrast had total power as a man beneath him was begging for his life -- and Chauvin just wouldn't move. Yes, I understand that maybe Floyd was dying anyway. But thousands people died in the wake of his unnecessary brutishness. If Chauvin is convicted it will feel just even if he technically could be acquitted.

    But also, a Chauvin acquittal would be bad for law and order. If police can behave that badly and not have consequences, they lose the Mandate of Heaven.

    Replies: @Anon, @AndrewR, @Not Only Wrathful, @Luzzatto, @Jack D, @anon, @Jack D, @TWS

    But Chauvin was so hard-hearted it is mind-boggling

    Unfortunately, police work has this effect on some people. They spend every day dealing with the scum of the earth like Floyd. People like Floyd, who aside from being thieves and addicts, are also fluent liars. Maybe when you are a young and naive cop you still believe them but after a while you realize that they are lying 99 times out of 100 and so you learn never to believe them. You realize that in most cases these people bring misfortune upon themselves and so you lose all sympathy for them. You learn never to trust them because if you extend any kindness, they will take advantage of the situation in any way they can. You become very cynical about human nature. Under such circumstances, it’s also easy to begin to see people of other races as less than human, because they really act like subhumans. All of the platitudes about equality are contradicted by what your eyes see every day. I say these things by way of explanation, not excuse. None of what I say would excuse criminal conduct.

    There are some cops who are able to maintain their humanity in the face of this, but it’s understandable why some don’t. At that point, maybe it’s time for them to seek another line of work. I’ll bet Chauvin wishes he had retired sooner.

    • Agree: Bardon Kaldian
  95. @vhrm
    @petit bourgeois


    Civilly, the plaintiffs’ bar against the cops uses forensic pathologists to say the drugs are not the cause of death, and the smothering or hobbling or positional asphyxiation is what killed him. The autopsy report will determine the outcome.
     
    The autopsy report is inconclusive. Basically there's nothing in there that can conclusively say the cops caused the death. From all the reporting and analysis it appears it's impossible to tell with any level of confidence just how much the fentanyl and his fluid filled lungs and enlarged heart contributed to his death. It could be 1%, 10% or 90%...
    If there's some model or paper or study that can say with any confidence nobody's mentioned it AFAIK.


    That said i'm guessing the city will settle the civil suit for some 7 or 8 figure amount if it can and not even have that trial.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @Abolish_public_education

    I am so sick and tired of tax (payer) funded, jackpot lawyer-verdicts.

    It seems like every major metropolitan area has some locally famous, toll-free, reachable, goto, huckster-lawyer ready to take taxpayers to the cleaners.

    Public school districts are teeming with six-figure, non-babysitting lawyers, yet when they regularly get hit with one of those Wrongful X lawsuits, they still speed dial the $1,000/hr, politically connected law firms they keep on retainer.

  96. anon[216] • Disclaimer says:

    Even if Chauvin wins, it’s not like he wins. I doubt most police are even right wing and they go after whites hot and heavy for being too white and too many white friends just like poc’s. Just look at the dancing FBI agents at Waco. How many set ups and hoaxes have we all seen and no one thinks that it leads to endless harassment of the victim, usually a karen, or becky but occasional white ghost man. How many set-ups do whites see all the time?

    “According to The Blast, a celebrity gossip site, Zimmerman claimed he was being harassed by production crews working on the 6-part documentary about Martin.

    Variety reported in March that JAY-Z was a partner with the Weinstein Company on the project. The documentary, titled, “Rest in Power: The Trayvon Martin Story,” will look at Martin’s life, the shooting by Zimmerman and the 2013 acquittal.”
    https://www.ajc.com/news/national/george-zimmerman-threatens-man-over-trayvon-martin-film-deputies-say/1JSZwske68iYgND9T6kLHL/

    This may not post as this site doesn’t allow my posts very often and I may have posted too many times as anon, it says you can use a fictional email but don’t believe it.

  97. @Buffalo Joe
    @Jack D

    Jack, your point about the optics is very true. Chauvin could have adjusted his position and still held Floyd secure...I think. But, I wasn't the one trying to control this very large man. And a "buzz" for him and an overdose death for another has already been disputed in three separate ME reports. Lethal dosage means death. But we are good. Stay safe.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Redman

    If you watch the other video (from the bodycam), you’ll see that another cop was sitting on Floyd’s legs. He’s not visible at all in the famous phone video, because he’s blocked out by the car.

    That officer was providing most of the leverage keeping Floyd immobile. We get a lot more power from our lower body than from our neck. I suspect that Chauvin was applying only minimal pressure to Floyd’s neck, and the reason Floyd seemed so prostrate was from the force being applied to his lower body.

  98. @Wilkey
    1) Contra the video most people have seen, the bodycam footage shows the police acting very professionally.

    2) The tactics used by the cops were accepted practice by the Minneapolis PD, whose chief is a black man.

    3) Floyd's statement that he couldn't breath began before they had him on the ground. The officers had called and were waiting for an ambulance. It ain't their fault that the ambulance took so damn long to get there.

    4) The tox screen shows he had probably lethal levels of illegal narcotics in his system. This is what's called reasonable doubt - a solid explanation for his death that had nothing to do with the actions of the officers.

    Derek Chauvin should almost certainly be acquitted, unless they've rigged the outcome. The problem is what happens if/when he is acquitted. Democrats aren't prepared for the hell that will break loose when that happens. My guess is they will use the verdict as yet more evidence that we need "racial reconciliation." Be prepared for an even bigger push for quotas, reparations, and God only knows what else to make up for this supposed injustice. The question is how whites and Republicans respond: yet another surrender to the mob, or will more of us finally and emphatically call them on their bullshit?

    Replies: @anonymous, @J.Ross, @Jack D, @Steve from Detroit

    Democrats aren’t prepared for the hell that will break loose when that happens.

    I think they are not only prepared, they desire it. Anything other than a murder verdict, and there will be rioting. Frankly, even with a murder verdict, the chance at rioting is 50/50.

    Democrats don’t want justice or a fair trial. They want mayhem, and anything other than a murder verdict will bring the most mayhem.

  99. @Jack D
    @DanHessinMD

    I don't think an acquittal for Chauvin is in the cards. Even if he is by some miracle fully acquitted by all jurors (including the black jurors) on all state charges, that is just going to trigger a federal indictment against him. I really think the best outcome for Chauvin and for society at this point is for him to be convicted of some lesser offense (clearly not intentional homicide - whatever he was trying to do he didn't really intend to kill Floyd). Chauvin is guilty of SOMETHING. Unfortunately, being stubborn and stupid is not a crime in and of itself so they are going to have to find some charge.

    Chauvin's crime began not when Floyd begged for help but when he STOPPED begging. Jeez, there was a point where the other cops could no longer find a pulse - he was literally dead and STILL the idiot kept his knee on him. Just because this has turned into a racial case doesn't mean that Chauvin is completely innocent. We are supposed to have a system of justice, not a system of racial solidarity.

    Replies: @Dieter Kief, @Matt Buckalew

    Jeez, there was a point where the other cops could no longer find a pulse – he was literally dead and STILL the idiot kept his knee on him.

    A severely sedated person with a dysfunctional lung and a police officer hastily trying to find a pulse can’t find any is by not “literally dead”.

    Not even necessarily dead.

    Btw. – George Floyd was pronounced dead at 9:25 – 1hour+ after he had been brought to the hospital.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Dieter Kief


    Btw. – George Floyd was pronounced dead at 9:25
     
    Pronounced Dead at the Scene would be a killer name for a rap act. But it's probably already been used for a rock band. Is there a database for this?

    Replies: @black sea, @Dieter Kief

  100. Chauvin should do serious time.

    For being an utter dipshit.

    A black guy is filming you with your knee on another black guy’s neck while saying he can’t breathe and Chauvin can’t understand the fucking optics of that?

    90 IQ cop.

    He went to Normandale Community College for Food Preparation.

    But as a union cop had two houses!

    Fuck the police and fuck him.

    • Disagree: Catdog
    • Troll: Inquiring Mind
    • Replies: @William Badwhite
    @Blodgie


    can’t understand the fucking optics of that?
     

    Fuck the police and fuck him.
     
    Fuck you and the other commenters that actually take the time to type the f-word. Are you twelve and just learned this word? Are you so poorly read that you think this word adds heft to whatever it is you were babbling on about?

    Coarse, immature, semi-literates such as you make everything and everyone around them worse. Grow up. Then fuck off.
  101. Anonymous[133] • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean
    @Steve Sailer

    If so, why did he need to be restrained, eh?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvZ6VEQB20g

    Replies: @Anonymous

    So those officers could have saved him with Narcan then, it would seem.

    Chauvin is really not someone to fight for. If you want to talk about injustice, a real injustice is how the US Justice department is attempting to destroy many hundreds of people in the Capitol Hill protests, including many people who didn’t hurt a fly didn’t resist any police and just followed the crowd in.

    Did you know congressman Jamie Raskin — who led impeachment over the January 6 ‘storming of congress’ — literally participated in a huge illegal storming of congress on June 28th, 2018? I am not joking. His righteous outrage over January 6th ignores the unbelievable fact that he participated in something awfully similar, the illegal storming inside congress by a huge mob — only two years before. It was the Hart Senate Office Building rather than the Capitol so you get very different imagery but the crimes hundreds of January 6th protesters are being charged with could apply here.

    [MORE]

    https://www.rollcall.com/2018/06/28/photos-of-the-day-575-protesters-charged-at-senates-hart-building-at-immigration-rally/

    If you want to understand a two-tiered justice system in action, here you go, but you should be sitting down because it is hard to take:

    Eight Times When Leftist Protestors Illegally Mobbed Congress with Trump as President

    (1) June 28th 2018: “Photos of the Day: 575 Protesters Charged at Senate’s Hart Building at Immigration Rally ”
    https://www.rollcall.com/2018/06/28/photos-of-the-day-575-protesters-charged-at-senates-hart-building-at-immigration-rally/
    “An afternoon of protests ended in many arrests in the Hart Senate Office Building on Thursday as a group of mostly female protesters flooded the atrium of the work space to protest President Donald Trump’s immigration policies.
    United States Capitol Police charged nearly 575 individuals with “unlawfully demonstrating,” according to a Capitol Police statement Thursday.”

    (2) October 4th 2018: “Amy Schumer among 302 arrested for Senate office protests on Kavanaugh”
    That would be incoming Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer’s cousin Amy Schumer illegally entering and protesting in Congress along with a gang of more than 300 others.
    https://www.kalb.com/content/news/Amy-Schumer-among-302-arrested-for-Senate-office-protests-on-Kavanaugh-495221031.html
    “U.S. Capitol Police said that 302 people were arrested Thursday for illegally protesting inside the Senate office buildings against the Supreme Court nomination of Brett Kavanaugh.”

    (3) July 25, 2017: “USCP Arrest Protesters for Demonstration Activity on Capitol Grounds”
    https://www.uscp.gov/media-center/press-releases/uscp-arrest-protesters-demonstration-activity-capitol-grounds
    “Officers on the scene arrested the demonstrators when they failed to cease and desist with their unlawful demonstration activities. Thirty-one demonstrators were charged with DC Code §10-503.16 – Disruption of Congress.
    At approximately 2:55 p.m., USCP officers responded to the atrium of the Hart Senate Office Building for reported demonstration activities. Sixty-four individuals were arrested after refusing to cease and desist with their unlawful demonstration activities. They were charged with D.C. Code §22-1307, Crowding, Obstructing, or Incommoding.”

    (4) July 18th, 2019: “70 Catholic protesters arrested in D.C. demonstration against Trump’s immigration policies”
    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/70-catholic-protesters-arrested-in-washington-dc-demonstration-against-trump-immigration-policies/
    “U.S. Capitol Police said 70 protesters were arrested for unlawfully demonstrating, and were charged with crowding, obstructing, or incommoding, which is a misdemeanor.”

    (5) June 22, 2017: “Capitol Police arrest 43 protesters at ‘die-in’ in Senate office building”
    https://wtop.com/dc/2017/06/capitol-police-arrest-43-protesters-die-senate-office-building/
    “U.S. Capitol Police said 70 protesters were arrested for unlawfully demonstrating, and were charged with crowding, obstructing, or incommoding, which is a misdemeanor.”

    (6) January 17th 2018: “Dozens of people arrested during DACA protest in Russell Senate Building in D.C.”
    https://wjla.com/news/local/dozens-of-people-arrested-during-daca-protest-in-russell-senate-building-in-dc
    “WASHINGTON (ABC7) — Over 50 people have been arrested Wednesday during a Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) Sit-in protest inside the Russell Senate Office Building on Capitol Hill in Washington, D.C.”

    (7) October 5th, 2018: “U.S. Capitol Police Respond to Multiple Instances of Unlawful Demonstration Activities”
    https://www.uscp.gov/media-center/press-releases/us-capitol-police-respond-multiple-instances-unlawful-demonstration
    “United States Capitol Police officers responded to multiple instances of unlawful demonstration activities on Friday, October 5, 2018.
    A total of 101 individuals were arrested. Additional details are below.
    During the course of the day, 78 individuals were arrested throughout the Senate Office Buildings, and they were charged with D.C. Code §22-1307, Crowding, Obstructing, or Incommoding.”

    (8) September 25th 2017: “Capitol police arrest 181 during protests at Graham-Cassidy bill hearing”
    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/capitol-police-arrest-181-during-protests-at-graham-cassidy-bill-hearing
    “The U.S. Capitol Police arrested a total of 181 people for protesting during a Senate Finance Committee hearing regarding the Graham-Cassidy healthcare bill on Monday.”

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Anonymous

    So those officers could have saved him with Narcan then, it would seem.

    Not sure that's an option when your lungs are filled with fluid.

    , @Sean
    @Anonymous

    Just because something is deemed lawful by the district attorney (as Chauvin's actions originally were) doesn't mean it's appropriate and in line with what police training is to do in that situation. Chauvin would have been dismissed from the police as a result of that incident, because his superiors would have decided he was trouble, of that I am pretty sure,

    It is important to remember that Floyd could be committing an offense of resisting arrest, without that absolving Chauvin of responsibility. Failing to obey commands does not give the arresting officers license to physically punish the resister without being held to be committing an assault. It goes without saying that for police--as for anyone else--a person dying is a circumstance that practice alters whether something is deemed to have been an assault; that is just common sense.

    Almost uniquely, in Minnesota if you commit a crime of assault and the person dies you can be convicted of felony murder with the prosecution only having to prove an assault, meaning there is only one element that the prosecution has to prove.

    Replies: @anon

  102. If iStevers support the police in this, does that make us male Chauvinists?

    from anosognosic

    “Anosognosia is sometimes accompanied by asomatognosia, a form of neglect in which patients deny ownership of body parts such as their limbs.”
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anosognosia

    That sounds so Veggie Tales. “I didn’t rape her! It was this invisible floating penis that accompanies me everywhere!”

    (And shouldn’t that be anosognotic or anosognostic? Can’t medical professionals do Greek anymore?)

    But the state may be able to evade that basic premise of Anglo-American law and turn the burden of proof around.

    Per Vicki Sue Robinson:

    Turn the proof around
    Love to see suppression
    Turn it upside down
    Make them feel oppression…

  103. @Whiskey
    Slam dunk, Chauvin is convicted on all counts. He's White. He committed a crime of enforcing the law against a black man, and all black men are exempt and above the law. Just existing as a White man is a crime. So he's going to be convicted.

    Really, what did anyone expect out of Civil Rights? White men will either be on top or on bottom. There is no middle ground. There is no "lets all get along." There is no end to the war against White men until the last of us is dead. That's just the way it is.

    All that being said, there will be riots and riots and get Whitey street restorative justice "adjustment" from well, now to forever. It will never stop. Any black person has the perfect right by LAW and CUSTOM to do whatever they want to you, in the name of Civil Rights, and you have no right or defense to resist. After all, its your fault White men that vibrant young youths of color beat elderly Asian people, sometimes to death.

    If you are White, your existence is a crime against nature: Martin Luther King said so. So does Obama. If you are a White man, well you are the epitome of evil, and again Martin Luther King said so, and so did Obama. And Oprah. And Charlize Theron. And Captain Marvel. And Princess Megan. And President Harris.

    As Machiavelli said, it is better to be feared than loved.

    Replies: @Jim Christian, @kpkinsunnyphiladelphia, @TomSchmidt

    Slam dunk, Chauvin is convicted on all counts.

    Correct. He must be sacrificed at the altar of St. George Floyd. Is there a betting market for an acquittal? Because if there is, the money line would be SO negative you might have to mortgage your house to jump in.

    Meanwhile, the noise you’re hearing is Tom Wolfe banging on his coffin lid right now, desperate to get out so he can write this sucker up.

    There are 4 kinds of people, vis a vis the George Floyd saga.

    1. People who don’t know anything about it.

    2. People who really believe Chauvin killed him.

    3. People who really know Chauvin didn’t kill him, but want the guy convicted as a murderer for a range of reasons too numerous and typical to mention.

    4. People who also know Chauvin didn’t kill him, and think this whole episode is both tragically and comically absurd, and would really want Tom to come back from the dead and write it up.

  104. @Dieter Kief
    @Jack D


    Jeez, there was a point where the other cops could no longer find a pulse – he was literally dead and STILL the idiot kept his knee on him.
     
    A severely sedated person with a dysfunctional lung and a police officer hastily trying to find a pulse can't find any is by not "literally dead".

    Not even necessarily dead.

    Btw. - George Floyd was pronounced dead at 9:25 - 1hour+ after he had been brought to the hospital.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Btw. – George Floyd was pronounced dead at 9:25

    Pronounced Dead at the Scene would be a killer name for a rap act. But it’s probably already been used for a rock band. Is there a database for this?

    • Replies: @black sea
    @Reg Cæsar

    I don't think that EMTs are authorized to pronounce someone dead. They have to transport them to a hospital, where the determination can be made by a physician.

    , @Dieter Kief
    @Reg Cæsar


    Pronounced Dead at the Scene would be a killer name for a rap act. But it’s probably already been used for a rock band. Is there a database for this?
     
    Yes, there are numerous reports which have the same wording that struck me - may I say: Interesting? - too:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52861726

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_George_Floyd


    7. “VERY weird that upon arrival the so called emts didn’t try ANY KIND of life saving procedures whatsoever.”The Hennepin Healthcare Emergency Medical Services (EMS) head suggested in an interview that EMS workers could save time by treating a patient in an ambulance instead of unloading all relevant medical equipment (here).ADVERTISEMENT8. “VERY weird that if he was dead upon the emts arrival they didnt block the area off to let internal investigations come to investigate the CRIME SCENE of a police related homicide which is standard protocol.”The time of death of George Floyd was recorded as 9.25 p.m. (here), almost an hour after paramedics had moved him from the scene (here).   
    These sentences are from this report of Reuters

    https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-floyd-claims-idUSKBN23J2JK

    The one report that says what I - quite clearly, but - you never know - - - remember explicitly: That George Floyd did not die on the street but in the - - - - Hennepin-county-hospital (another short story in eight strong syllables) I have been looking for, but could not find.

    (If it should exist, maybe res could get a hold of it - res is the Great Finder.)

  105. @Jack D
    @DanHessinMD

    I don't think an acquittal for Chauvin is in the cards. Even if he is by some miracle fully acquitted by all jurors (including the black jurors) on all state charges, that is just going to trigger a federal indictment against him. I really think the best outcome for Chauvin and for society at this point is for him to be convicted of some lesser offense (clearly not intentional homicide - whatever he was trying to do he didn't really intend to kill Floyd). Chauvin is guilty of SOMETHING. Unfortunately, being stubborn and stupid is not a crime in and of itself so they are going to have to find some charge.

    Chauvin's crime began not when Floyd begged for help but when he STOPPED begging. Jeez, there was a point where the other cops could no longer find a pulse - he was literally dead and STILL the idiot kept his knee on him. Just because this has turned into a racial case doesn't mean that Chauvin is completely innocent. We are supposed to have a system of justice, not a system of racial solidarity.

    Replies: @Dieter Kief, @Matt Buckalew

    Just pretends Chauvin is IDF and that Floyd is a Palestinian chickpea farmer with a chip on his shoulder from having to wait three hours at an IDF checkpoint.

  106. @Sean
    @Known Fact

    Chauvin scrambled to get a deal while it was still local (rather than state) officials who were handling his prosecution; he was willing to plead guilty and do ten years in prison, with immunity from a follow on Civil Rights case. That was considered much too lenient by Barr who vetoed it. Even were he to be acquited, they will just him him with a Civil Rights case and he can get 480 months on that. He has no chance of ever getting out, and he is doubtless being held on Maxwell style micromanaging suicide watch. After the public get their show of him getting convicted and sentenced, the suicide watch will be eventually be removed, and I think he will take the oppertunity to escape the only way left to him: by going out feet first.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @anonymous, @sayless

    Sean I’m very much afraid you are right about all of that.

  107. @Luzzatto
    @DanHessinMD

    If George Floyd was some high as fuck White Trash Junkie I wonder how many people here on The Unz would still say that Derek Chauvin was correct to keep his knee on handcuffed George's neck for over 9 minutes? I'm guessing Derek Chauvin would no longer be their hero.

    George Floyd was handcuffed so it's not like he could break Derek Chauvin's jaws with his fists!

    Replies: @Nicholas Stix, @njguy73

    If George Floyd was White, no one outside of his hometown would have heard of him, or given a crap about him if they knew.

    • Replies: @Luzzatto
    @njguy73

    If George Floyd was White it would have made the local news atleast. Somebody would have eventually posted it here on The Unz as an example of police brutality against unarmed White men and everybody here on The Unz would have said Derek Chauvin knees on a White man's neck caused the White man to die!

    Replies: @No Recent Commenting History

    , @obwandiyag
    @njguy73

    Diversion. That's not what Luzzato said. He said all of you guys on here would be saying Chauvin was bad if Floyd had been white. And he's right. You definitely would have criticized him, instead of lionizing him, all depending on the race of his victim. Whether it got on the news or not is not relevant. Luzzato was not talking about that. Typical of you people to change the subject when you can't deal with it. Hypocrites that you are.

  108. @Anon
    @Chrisnonymous


    This is pretty poor coverage. The narrative moved on from the neck compression to torso compression and positional asphyxia a long time ago. You can learn a lot more about the issues by going through the archives at iSteve and reading the back and forth that took place over the summer.
     
    The commenter “res” has made some good posts about the case.

    By the way, doesn’t Occam’s Razor point to heart attack from exertion and anxiety as being the most likely cause? (And Lo and Behold, that’s the cause given in the autopsy report.)

    Why is this so hard?

    Replies: @Genrick Yagoda

    doesn’t Occam’s Razor point to heart attack from exertion and anxiety as being the most likely cause? (And Lo and Behold, that’s the cause given in the autopsy report.)

    The medical examiner’s report states no such thing.

    I don’t what you are reading, but the medical examiner’s report does not state that.

  109. @Jack D
    @Wilkey

    Very little chance of an outright acquittal. Hopefully a hung jury will not be enough to provoke rioting. They retry him a couple of more times and give up because they can never get a unanimous verdict to convict and by his 3rd trial people will have lost interest. That's the best possible outcome.

    2nd best is that he's convicted of some lesser offense. Does a couple of years and then is quietly released on parole. If you look at the greatest good for the greatest # of people, it's better for Chauvin to do a couple of years than for half of America to burn again and numerous people to die in the rioting. It sucks for Chauvin but sometimes you gotta take one for the team. The shopkeepers of MN should take up a collection for Chauvin because it would be cheaper to pay him to sit in prison than for every retail premises to be looted.

    TBH, whether or not Floyd ODed, Chauvin is guilty of SOMETHING. Being stubborn and stupid at the very least. Even if the primary cause of death was the Fentanyl, keeping Floyd in that position for so long didn't help. I don't care what his training said, at some point you have to adjust to the situation and not just keep doing the same thing. Yes at the beginning Floyd is talking up a storm and clearly getting air. But at some point he blacks out and Chauvin still doesn't move a muscle. I'm guessing that being heckled by the crowd didn't help - he didn't want to back down and lose face. Pride cometh before the fall.

    BTW, the evidence of overdose is very marginal. Addicts like Floyd develop tolerance to opiates so that a dose that would kill a horse just gives them a pleasant buzz.

    Replies: @Inquiring Mind, @Buffalo Joe, @Jim Christian, @AnotherDad, @AnotherDad, @Art Deco, @anon

    Jack, why have you wasted your life as yet-another-lawyer, hiding out in some office pushing around paper. If only we had your brains out on the street, instead of these goyishe kopfs, racial harmony would be at hand.

    I eagerly await the Officer JackD subdues overdosing big black thug with perfectly calibrated use of force video.

    • LOL: Dieter Kief
    • Replies: @Jack D
    @AnotherDad

    Being a cop is not something I would ever want to do, but for a blue collar white guy in deindustrialized America it's not a bad gig. In big cities the pensions are generous and kick in early or you can go out on disability and have a 2nd career.

    One of the reasons that these guys get paid fairly well (taking into account salary and benefits) and get to carry a gun is that they are expected to exercise a fairly high level of judgment - they literally have people's lives in their hands. If you are given this kind of power and you, in the judgment of the law, abuse it, you have to be prepared to take the consequences - it comes with the job, just like a bus driver has to be prepared to take the consequences if he drives his bus recklessly. I suppose if you don't want to take those kind of risks you could pursue some other profession where you don't have to interact with humans - then you can never cross the line.

    I'm not the one who has to judge Chauvin - the jury will do that. The old police axiom is that it's better to be judged by twelve than carried by six but in this case Chauvin's life was not on the line, which makes his actions even more inexplicable.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous, @anonymous

    , @Dieter Kief
    @AnotherDad


    subdues overdosing big black thug
     
    The perfect illustration of your comment is in Tom Wolfe's a tad underrated (maybe even by our host, who holds Tom Wolfe usually in high esteem) novel Back to Blood.

    An epic description of what it means to do what you mention.

    When the epic fight breaks out, a well-meaning young woman (a student) sits under a table and watches it - in all graphic detail (German translation ca. p. 330, if I remember well). And in the course of the reflection of these things, the lines occur, which - are the title of the book (a title, the German publisher of it did not risk to translate...).

    In other words: If you haven't read this novel yet - give it a try! - Lots of everyday police work in it! - and - now comes the highlight: Even an example of how deceptive videos can be for the public opinion about an important event (if that sounds somehow like the George Floyd case - well: Structurally, it is. Wolfe pinned the deceptive nature of videos down in this book, a lesson, everybody could take advantage of in our times of the utter abundance of such - "video proof".

  110. @Reg Cæsar
    @Dieter Kief


    Btw. – George Floyd was pronounced dead at 9:25
     
    Pronounced Dead at the Scene would be a killer name for a rap act. But it's probably already been used for a rock band. Is there a database for this?

    Replies: @black sea, @Dieter Kief

    I don’t think that EMTs are authorized to pronounce someone dead. They have to transport them to a hospital, where the determination can be made by a physician.

  111. The fact he was a junkie is a red herring.

    The real fact is that if the cop had done this to a white guy you would be screaming bloody murder. You guys are so transparent.

    • Replies: @anon
    @obwandiyag

    The fact he was a junkie is a red herring.

    No evidence of heroin in George Floyd's bloodstream. It's not the 70's, dude, check your calendar.

    The real fact is that if the cop had done this to a white guy you would be screaming bloody murder.

    Nah. The killing of Daniel Shaver in Arizona and subsequent events was obviously very bad, but nobody here was screaming anything, and even you should have noticed that.

    You guys are so transparent.

    It is odd that you are so pitifully bad at lying, given how much you practice. Can't decide which you are worse at, lying or trolling. Probably the power of "and" is a solution.

    Replies: @obwandiyag

  112. @Jack D
    @Wilkey

    Very little chance of an outright acquittal. Hopefully a hung jury will not be enough to provoke rioting. They retry him a couple of more times and give up because they can never get a unanimous verdict to convict and by his 3rd trial people will have lost interest. That's the best possible outcome.

    2nd best is that he's convicted of some lesser offense. Does a couple of years and then is quietly released on parole. If you look at the greatest good for the greatest # of people, it's better for Chauvin to do a couple of years than for half of America to burn again and numerous people to die in the rioting. It sucks for Chauvin but sometimes you gotta take one for the team. The shopkeepers of MN should take up a collection for Chauvin because it would be cheaper to pay him to sit in prison than for every retail premises to be looted.

    TBH, whether or not Floyd ODed, Chauvin is guilty of SOMETHING. Being stubborn and stupid at the very least. Even if the primary cause of death was the Fentanyl, keeping Floyd in that position for so long didn't help. I don't care what his training said, at some point you have to adjust to the situation and not just keep doing the same thing. Yes at the beginning Floyd is talking up a storm and clearly getting air. But at some point he blacks out and Chauvin still doesn't move a muscle. I'm guessing that being heckled by the crowd didn't help - he didn't want to back down and lose face. Pride cometh before the fall.

    BTW, the evidence of overdose is very marginal. Addicts like Floyd develop tolerance to opiates so that a dose that would kill a horse just gives them a pleasant buzz.

    Replies: @Inquiring Mind, @Buffalo Joe, @Jim Christian, @AnotherDad, @AnotherDad, @Art Deco, @anon

    BTW, the evidence of overdose is very marginal.

    Except Floyd is … dead.
    And
    — he sat in his car doing nothing to leave the scene after passing his fake bill
    — he did a big freak out when the cops tried to put him in the car
    — he was doing his “i can’t breathe” shtick before the cops were kneeling on him
    — the first–non-political–autopsy showed no sign of trauma to windpipe nor forced asphyxiation but rather that Floyd died of a heart attack, with a bunch of fentanyl, meth, signs of heart disease and covid-19 (probably PCRing up previous month’s infection)

    So yeah, other than the actual evidence of Floyd’s behavior and his autopsy the overdose theory is marginal.

    • Replies: @Mike Tre
    @AnotherDad

    "he sat in his car doing nothing to leave the scene after passing his fake bill"

    Pretty sure he was trying to deal the fentanyl and swallowed his stash when the police rolled up on him. (the two individuals briefly questioned early in the bodycam footage supports that; they were likely potential customers)

  113. @JohnPlywood
    @Jack D

    Which means the Right is wasting its precious time and energy on this case against one man, in a country of millions, for a right wing agenda that is lost on the majority of the world's inhabitants.


    American police are some of the most hated creatures on the planet right now, and Derek Chauvin is just one schmuck. One faceless, hapless schmuck in a bucket of millions. Why not just let it fade in to the dark like Trayvon Martin slowly did, and devote our time and energy (which are truly precious and finite) to more strategical, winnable activities? Even if Chauvin prevails, it's just gonna make society hate him and the Right even more. The public wants Chauvin to die and nothing we say can ever change that.

    Seeing the right get sucked in to these drama episodes for years on end is sad. Better to just let Derek get the rope (or not) and focus on more pressing issues than whatever murder trials the media decides to blow up for the year. Things like the persistently low (less than 10) total fertility rate, which the government and banks want solved immediately.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Johann Ricke, @Anon, @njguy73, @Redneck farmer, @vhrm, @anon, @Hippopotamusdrome, @Not Only Wrathful, @TWS

    Nobody. Not one person who reads this blog believes you are a man of the right.

    I am certain that you are likely not a man at all. Oh, I have little doubt you walk on two legs, but I have seen trained dogs and bears even horses do as much. I’m certain you can speak or at least use a key board. Again, I’ve witnessed birds who could mimic the sounds of any creature you can name.

    Manhood requires character, a spine and soul. You are as spineless as tofu and as for your soul you cannot possess what you have discarded or sold.

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
    @TWS

    You're right, I'm not a man of the right. I despise the right wing, because it can't do anything right. The right wing is a Faustian punching bag for everyone to pummel for the sake of sheer sadistic joy. Your entire existence consists of speaking out, getting beaten down by any opponent, only to cower back in to the darkness to formulate a new meme to bleat on the internet. It's like a sick game of Whack-a-Mole... and you're the moles.

    There's a way out, but it's going to involve you getting on your knees and moving that spine for me. I'm the only one who can save the loony right from themselves, and it requires your complete devotion.

    Replies: @Boomthorkell

  114. As i pointed out to some relatives and friends after the Michael Brown suicide by cop follies in 2014, the core logic of these cases is “separate communities”, or ideally “separate nations”.

    If
    — blacks have different norms of public behavior
    or
    — blacks find it offensive to be stopped or questioned or arrested by white officers
    or
    — blacks or the whole nation is going to have national freakout over every white-arrests-black that goes south

    then whites and blacks simply don’t belong in the same communities.

    ~~

    Instead of these phony, let’s sacrifice a virgin white cop a couple times a year to appease the gods of diversity, let’s just create separate black and white communities which can have their separate norms and be policed by cops of appropriate race.

    Extend this and allow separate communities of any racial, ethnic, religious or cultural group–blacks, whites, Mexicans, Jews, Chinese, Indians, Irish, Germans, English, Scots-Irish, Italians, Poles, Arabs, Filipinos, Koreans, Hawaiians … or combinations thereof. Although as we know the really big divide is simply black/non-black.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @AnotherDad

    They tried something like this in S. Africa and it just wasn't workable. And the racial lines were much more clearly drawn in S. Africa. Good luck unscrambling the American omelet.

    Seriously, how do you envision this working? Is it state by state or city by city or do you designate certain parts of each city to belong to one group or another? Would there still be a United States or would there be two (or more) countries? I realize that the "unimaginable" was made real in numerous places in the 20th century thru genocide and "exchange of population" (which in reality is much more bloody than it sounds) but I just don't know how this could be made to work (especially not in a way that would not permanently damage America's stature in the world).

    I understand the impulse - you feel as if you are in a bad marriage and the only solution you see is divorce. But sometimes you have to stay because you can't afford to get divorced. BTW, most men never recover their net worth after a divorce.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @AnotherDad

    , @Art Deco
    @AnotherDad

    The problem with this argument is that working class blacks behave quite normally. You have a modest (rather feral) minority, you have a word merchant element, you have the sorosphere paid agitators, and you have gentry liberals. Your problem is the sorosphere racket and gentry liberals generally. You cannot carve out a separate homeland for them. You can only arrest them and deport them.

    Replies: @vhrm

  115. anonymous[251] • Disclaimer says:

    I used to believe that any type of real murder conviction entailed proving that the defendant had some pre meditated intent to kill the person that died.

    If the defendant was just roughing someone up, doing something dangerous and wrong, but there ws no intent to kill, that was considered some form of manslaughter.

    But, with everything now looked through the lens of racial resentments, “hate crimes” politicalization, a “murder” charge just entails it’s more of a media morality show trial.

    Can anyone left on Unz who does know criminal law from say before 1965 clear this up for me. Did “murder” used to entail a pre meditated intent to kill someone? What would the Perry Mason TV show think about that?

    thanks

    J Ryan
    Left Behind in Chicago
    The Obama Foundation is stealing my backyard Andrew Jackson Lakefront public park to build a cult of personality temple the “Obama Presidential Center” – it was first presented as a Presidential Library but everyone now agrees it’s not any kind of library. Park purists are furious, but so where the religious Jews living in Jerusalem when the Roman Emperor Caligula declared himself to be Jupiter God and made tax payers build a temple to worship him in occupied Roman Palestine – Religious Jews revolted. We’ll see how the White Liberal Park lovers do with the OPC Obama cult of personality 22 story temple.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @anonymous

    There are several degrees of murder, not all of which require premeditation. Chauvin has been charged with a least 3 to give the jury a choice. One charge is manslaughter, which is traditionally killing in the heat of combat - you start out in a fistfight with someone, not intending to kill them, and matters escalate and you end up killing them - no premeditation. Another charge, just re-added today, is "depraved heart" murder - you act with extreme recklessness, such as dropping a cinder block off an overpass over a busy highway. You're just chucking stuff off the bridge for fun but the block goes thru the windshield of a passing car and kills a motorist. Again no premeditation. These types of murder have been in the law for centuries.

    The sentences vary - maybe life for intentional homicide, 40 years for depraved heart and 25 for manslaughter. Prosecutors like to give a jury a choice because if there are holdouts, they can often be persuaded to go for a compromise verdict. Maybe it's 10 to 2 for intentional homicide so you persuade the 2 holdouts that everyone will vote for manslaughter instead. Cut the baby in half and we can all go home. No one tells the jury in advance that manslaughter is 25 years so it's little better than intentional.

    , @Deep Anonymous
    @anonymous

    Not necessarily. Traditional common law definition of murder is a homicide done with malice. (Homicide, in turn, is any unlawful killing of another human being.) There are four ways the prosecution can prove malice:

    1. Intent to kill;
    2. intent to inflict such grievous bodily injury that death would be the likely result;
    3. depraved heart; and
    4. felony murder.

    Oversimplifying a little, depraved heart means an extreme indifference to human life akin to recklessness. Examples: firing a weapon in a crowded area and a ricochet strikes and kills someone; engaging in a pattern of extreme child abuse (e.g. locking a child in a closet and feeding him or her only sporadically) whereupon the child dies of neglect.

    Felony murder means that if a homicide occurs during the course of committing one of an enumerated list of felonies (or in some jurisdictions any felony that creates a heightened risk to life), that homicide counts as murder. Example: getaway driver in an armed robbery can be found guilty of felony murder if the gunman shoots and kills someone in the course of committing the holdup. Also the second example in the previous paragraph can lead to felony murder. (Taken from Fisher v. State, a notorious Maryland case from around 20 years ago.)

  116. @AnotherDad
    As i pointed out to some relatives and friends after the Michael Brown suicide by cop follies in 2014, the core logic of these cases is "separate communities", or ideally "separate nations".

    If
    -- blacks have different norms of public behavior
    or
    -- blacks find it offensive to be stopped or questioned or arrested by white officers
    or
    -- blacks or the whole nation is going to have national freakout over every white-arrests-black that goes south

    then whites and blacks simply don't belong in the same communities.

    ~~

    Instead of these phony, let's sacrifice a virgin white cop a couple times a year to appease the gods of diversity, let's just create separate black and white communities which can have their separate norms and be policed by cops of appropriate race.

    Extend this and allow separate communities of any racial, ethnic, religious or cultural group--blacks, whites, Mexicans, Jews, Chinese, Indians, Irish, Germans, English, Scots-Irish, Italians, Poles, Arabs, Filipinos, Koreans, Hawaiians ... or combinations thereof. Although as we know the really big divide is simply black/non-black.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Art Deco

    They tried something like this in S. Africa and it just wasn’t workable. And the racial lines were much more clearly drawn in S. Africa. Good luck unscrambling the American omelet.

    Seriously, how do you envision this working? Is it state by state or city by city or do you designate certain parts of each city to belong to one group or another? Would there still be a United States or would there be two (or more) countries? I realize that the “unimaginable” was made real in numerous places in the 20th century thru genocide and “exchange of population” (which in reality is much more bloody than it sounds) but I just don’t know how this could be made to work (especially not in a way that would not permanently damage America’s stature in the world).

    I understand the impulse – you feel as if you are in a bad marriage and the only solution you see is divorce. But sometimes you have to stay because you can’t afford to get divorced. BTW, most men never recover their net worth after a divorce.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Jack D

    They tried something like this in S. Africa and it just wasn’t workable.

    They never tried anything like that. They did delineate some tribal territories - rather like Indian reservations - but these accounted for only about 13% of the land area.

    , @AnotherDad
    @Jack D

    Few of points:

    -- As i've noted before one the of key points of pointing out any sort of "separation" options is that it clear shows whom is looting who.

    If i'm willing to bug off and leave you alone ... i'm not the problem. It's the people who demand contact with other people, demand other people do something for them who are the dependents and parasites. (My parents drafted a "policy on parental support past the age of 18" for me at 16 or so to make this point.)


    -- As Art Deco notes, South Africa most certainly did not do this. That's actually the tragedy for whites there. The rich whites there simply would not give up black labor, and retreat to a white homeland to live as white people. They could have and should have done this. But they didn't because of ... the siren call of cheap labor. Confederacy--however sympathetic i am to their legal argument--same deal. If you want to live and survive as a people you can't keep around a slave race, serf race, cheap labor race. America's elites have been heeding siren call of cheap labor the past few decades--intentionally to destroy the nation in our case--and we are getting the predictably bad results.


    -- Unscrambling is often considerably less terrible than the alternatives. The post-War unscrambling of Germans wasn't pleasant. One can say all sorts of things about it. (Lots of nasty stuff usually happens once tribes start fighting and killing each other.) But it's notable that Europe was pretty darn peaceful for a lot of decades after the War. Some of that is nukes, some the US Army. But a big portion was good clear borders.

    The trouble spots were places like Northern Ireland, which hadn't been unscrambled--and should simply have been further repartitioned with "movement of populations" instead of tedious dragging on through "the Troubles". Or the Basques unhappy in Spain. And when the European peace came apart it was precisely where people had not been unscrambled--the Balkans.

    Actually more unscrambling--Lebanon, Israel, the Kurds, Tibet, lots of places in Africa ... would be goodness.

    Unfortunately the unscrambling is Europe is being reversed by evil elites--as it is in America.


    -- Organic unscrambling in the US would actually be quite helpful.

    My rough take is if we could simply stop immigration, pretty much all the ethnic division would resolve in 100 years or so. It wouldn't be as good as 1960, before the rise of minoritarianism. But in a few generations we'd return to some sort of dominant "whiteish" generic American population with just the remaining legacy of slavery divide.

    But if we aren't getting that, at least just stop forcing association and conflict. Let people organically sort and organize into the communities they want. It doesn't bug me if the XYZ are doing their thing over there. Let everyone do it.

    But our hate filled elites just refuse even an once of good sense or decency. Pedal to the metal on immigration and jamming people in each others' faces. (You must have some Somali primitive rubbing in your face ... and love it!)


    -- The actual separation needed in the US is between minoritarians (of whatever ethnic group) and Americans (of whatever ethnic group). I.e. it's political.

    Some people are happy with traditional America--limited republican federal government, rooted in the people and culture of Western Christian civilization, with our own history, heroes, mores, norms ... culture. And some--the "diversity is our greatest strength", "immigration is who we are"--the Rainbow people, aren't.

    The split is for everyone to pick a side. No one has to pack up. But we chose sides and start building out own separate communities with our separate norms ... and get out of each other's way.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous, @Jack D

  117. @Jack D
    @Wilkey

    Very little chance of an outright acquittal. Hopefully a hung jury will not be enough to provoke rioting. They retry him a couple of more times and give up because they can never get a unanimous verdict to convict and by his 3rd trial people will have lost interest. That's the best possible outcome.

    2nd best is that he's convicted of some lesser offense. Does a couple of years and then is quietly released on parole. If you look at the greatest good for the greatest # of people, it's better for Chauvin to do a couple of years than for half of America to burn again and numerous people to die in the rioting. It sucks for Chauvin but sometimes you gotta take one for the team. The shopkeepers of MN should take up a collection for Chauvin because it would be cheaper to pay him to sit in prison than for every retail premises to be looted.

    TBH, whether or not Floyd ODed, Chauvin is guilty of SOMETHING. Being stubborn and stupid at the very least. Even if the primary cause of death was the Fentanyl, keeping Floyd in that position for so long didn't help. I don't care what his training said, at some point you have to adjust to the situation and not just keep doing the same thing. Yes at the beginning Floyd is talking up a storm and clearly getting air. But at some point he blacks out and Chauvin still doesn't move a muscle. I'm guessing that being heckled by the crowd didn't help - he didn't want to back down and lose face. Pride cometh before the fall.

    BTW, the evidence of overdose is very marginal. Addicts like Floyd develop tolerance to opiates so that a dose that would kill a horse just gives them a pleasant buzz.

    Replies: @Inquiring Mind, @Buffalo Joe, @Jim Christian, @AnotherDad, @AnotherDad, @Art Deco, @anon

    BTW, the evidence of overdose is very marginal.

    Except that the level of fentanyl in his femoral blood was about what you’d expect of an overdose death – right in the middle. And his breathing problems (which emerged when he was sitting bolt upright) are what you expect of a fentanyl overdose as your lungs fill up with fluid. And he had no injury to his trachea or his neck muscles. And it would have been physically impossible for Chauvin to have compressed both carotid arteries while using just one knee (if he even compressed one of them).

  118. @Jack D
    @AnotherDad

    They tried something like this in S. Africa and it just wasn't workable. And the racial lines were much more clearly drawn in S. Africa. Good luck unscrambling the American omelet.

    Seriously, how do you envision this working? Is it state by state or city by city or do you designate certain parts of each city to belong to one group or another? Would there still be a United States or would there be two (or more) countries? I realize that the "unimaginable" was made real in numerous places in the 20th century thru genocide and "exchange of population" (which in reality is much more bloody than it sounds) but I just don't know how this could be made to work (especially not in a way that would not permanently damage America's stature in the world).

    I understand the impulse - you feel as if you are in a bad marriage and the only solution you see is divorce. But sometimes you have to stay because you can't afford to get divorced. BTW, most men never recover their net worth after a divorce.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @AnotherDad

    They tried something like this in S. Africa and it just wasn’t workable.

    They never tried anything like that. They did delineate some tribal territories – rather like Indian reservations – but these accounted for only about 13% of the land area.

  119. @DanHessinMD
    I think this would be a really stupid hill for conservatives to fight on. Virtually everyone who saw the video intuit that Chauvin's behavior was really wrong on a moral level. And it was.

    "But, but, it is the principle of the thing."

    Trump conservatives have often rightly pointed out that the bowtie conservatives have been completely out of touch with where everyday people are at as the bowtie conservatives pursued a pure conservatism. Losing the Senate to preserve conservative principles on stimulus in the middle of a pandemic is a great example.

    Well I would say that people defending Chauvin are being like the bowtie conservatives usually are -- stuck on principle with no common sense.

    Chauvin is not a nice guy, like, at all. A dude couldn't breathe and kept saying so. Chauvin wouldn't get off of him for a really long time. Many minutes. Who does that? Is 1 in 1000 among us that merciless?

    I get that the fentanyl may have what killed Floyd. I get that Chauvin could have gotten off of George Floyd at the beginning and he might have still died.

    But Chauvin was so hard-hearted it is mind-boggling -- as unsympathetic a figure as you can get. His brutishness --and you have to be a real brute not to react for such a long time when someone underneath you begs that he can't breathe -- really damaged law and order in this country to where the homicide rate has soared. And Floyd was barely moving and was totally outnumbered anyway. There wasn't even any need.

    Yes I get it about the fentanyl.

    I rooted for George Zimmerman throughout his trial because he literally killed to save his own life from a position of being dominated and he had the injures on the back of his head to prove it.

    Chauvin by contrast had total power as a man beneath him was begging for his life -- and Chauvin just wouldn't move. Yes, I understand that maybe Floyd was dying anyway. But thousands people died in the wake of his unnecessary brutishness. If Chauvin is convicted it will feel just even if he technically could be acquitted.

    But also, a Chauvin acquittal would be bad for law and order. If police can behave that badly and not have consequences, they lose the Mandate of Heaven.

    Replies: @Anon, @AndrewR, @Not Only Wrathful, @Luzzatto, @Jack D, @anon, @Jack D, @TWS

    Every single person you restrain will say they can’t breathe. Of course, that is never true. The knee on the neck is neither cruel nor unsafe. You literally cannot put enough weight on an adult man to harm him that way. That’s why it is standard training.

    The cop was obviously gassed from fighting a drugged up bouncer who was huge and well built.

    Cruel? Not even a little. What would be hilarious would be have you work intake at a large city/county jail Friday night. I would probably die laughing but it would be worth it to watch you shriek in terror and soil yourself.

    Don’t think it doesn’t happen. I’ve seen it more than once.

  120. @AnotherDad
    @Jack D

    Jack, why have you wasted your life as yet-another-lawyer, hiding out in some office pushing around paper. If only we had your brains out on the street, instead of these goyishe kopfs, racial harmony would be at hand.

    I eagerly await the Officer JackD subdues overdosing big black thug with perfectly calibrated use of force video.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Dieter Kief

    Being a cop is not something I would ever want to do, but for a blue collar white guy in deindustrialized America it’s not a bad gig. In big cities the pensions are generous and kick in early or you can go out on disability and have a 2nd career.

    One of the reasons that these guys get paid fairly well (taking into account salary and benefits) and get to carry a gun is that they are expected to exercise a fairly high level of judgment – they literally have people’s lives in their hands. If you are given this kind of power and you, in the judgment of the law, abuse it, you have to be prepared to take the consequences – it comes with the job, just like a bus driver has to be prepared to take the consequences if he drives his bus recklessly. I suppose if you don’t want to take those kind of risks you could pursue some other profession where you don’t have to interact with humans – then you can never cross the line.

    I’m not the one who has to judge Chauvin – the jury will do that. The old police axiom is that it’s better to be judged by twelve than carried by six but in this case Chauvin’s life was not on the line, which makes his actions even more inexplicable.

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    @Jack D

    I think your perspective is too dependent on assuming you know what was going on in Chauvin's head. I too happen to think it's likely that he acted out of a sense of not wanting the hecklers to be in control of his actions-- a kind of pride, perhaps, but it's confused because as a cop you wouldn't want a crowd to be dictating your actions. Part of your job, de facto if not de jure, is keeping control of scenes you are at--and indeed, we see Chauvin reach for pepper spray at one point as he is interacting with the crowd. I think Chauvin's mind likely was split between focusing on Floyd, whom he was waiting for EMTs to take care of, and focusing on the crowd. However, I don't know that's the case, and it's possible that Chauvin's thought process was more like "this guy is ODing but I don't have the resources (i.e., Narcan) to deal with that, so I've got to keep him calm until the EMTs get here". In that case, the fact that the ambulance got lost and arrived later than Chauvin expected would a major confounder for Chauvin--at every moment, Chauvin's decision was between moving Floyd and risking losing control of the situation if Floyd was faking or got agitated again and waiting just a few seconds more for the ambulance. When you consider how our sense of time passing is affected by circumstances, I think it is hard to say for sure that my perception of Chauvin's "pride" is accurate. Is he guilty of something? Hard to say. In a courtroom, I wouldn't like to vote to convict on specific charges carefully nuanced in law based on my feeling, possibly wrong, that he did something.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Anon

    , @anonymous
    @Jack D


    I’m not the one who has to judge Chauvin – the jury will do that.
     
    If you were Officer Chauvin’s defense attorney, what case would you make to the jury?

    Replies: @Inquiring Mind, @Jack D

  121. @AnotherDad
    As i pointed out to some relatives and friends after the Michael Brown suicide by cop follies in 2014, the core logic of these cases is "separate communities", or ideally "separate nations".

    If
    -- blacks have different norms of public behavior
    or
    -- blacks find it offensive to be stopped or questioned or arrested by white officers
    or
    -- blacks or the whole nation is going to have national freakout over every white-arrests-black that goes south

    then whites and blacks simply don't belong in the same communities.

    ~~

    Instead of these phony, let's sacrifice a virgin white cop a couple times a year to appease the gods of diversity, let's just create separate black and white communities which can have their separate norms and be policed by cops of appropriate race.

    Extend this and allow separate communities of any racial, ethnic, religious or cultural group--blacks, whites, Mexicans, Jews, Chinese, Indians, Irish, Germans, English, Scots-Irish, Italians, Poles, Arabs, Filipinos, Koreans, Hawaiians ... or combinations thereof. Although as we know the really big divide is simply black/non-black.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Art Deco

    The problem with this argument is that working class blacks behave quite normally. You have a modest (rather feral) minority, you have a word merchant element, you have the sorosphere paid agitators, and you have gentry liberals. Your problem is the sorosphere racket and gentry liberals generally. You cannot carve out a separate homeland for them. You can only arrest them and deport them.

    • Replies: @vhrm
    @Art Deco


    You cannot carve out a separate homeland for them. You can only arrest them and deport them.
     
    Or, accept HBD, ignore race and just prosecute individuals who commit crimes and put them in prison to keep them away from society for increasingly long periods until they get older and chill out.

    Basically accept that the criminal justice system will serve as holding-pen and self-control school for some number of slow to develop people.

    We already HAVE the system (1) and have had the system and it more or less works.

    There literally IS NO PROBLEM except that people are unwilling to accept "the race gaps": i.e. that there will ALWAYS be disproportionately many blacks arrested, and in jail and in prison etc.

    And with criminal justice, more than with education or jobs or income, there is a very close parallel that everyone already accepts as obvious and ok:
    Men vs women. There are 10x as many men in prisons as women. 10x. (2)
    Which is the bigger cause of this massive gap? misandry or biological differences between men and women?

    This isn't aimed at you particularly, it more addresses AnotherDad's suggestion of apartheid and similar "there's no solution!" type thoughts. It just kind of fit here in the conversation flow.


    1) though tbh i think prisons should have more services and think in the rather leftist terms of overall harm reduction to society and rehabilitation rather than thinking in terms of inflicting pain and discomfort as punishment, but i know it's much easier said then done, especially for finite $$.

    2) https://www.prisonpolicy.org/articles/notequal.html

  122. @Guy De Champlagne
    @gent

    Common sense says that since Chauvin had nothing else to do but restrain Floyd and had two other cops with him he should have worked with Floyd to find him a more comfortable position.

    Chauvin also had every reason to know how bad what he was doing looked because there was a crowd freaking out about it.

    I'd sooner believe that being restrained in that awkward position actually helped Floyd than that it had no effect whatsoever. But I'm not any kind of expert and am couching things in terms of how they look to everyday people.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @TWS

    Gotta agree you’re no kind of expert. Plus, your observations stink. Hopefully, the rest of America hasn’t reached idiocracy yet

  123. anon[257] • Disclaimer says:

    Details of jury selection in the Chauvin case.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9346361/Jury-selection-resume-Minneapolis-trial-deadly-arrest-George-Floyd.html

    Maybe the Star-Trib is also covering this, but frankly I find US media almost useless. Too many facts left out, too much fake news stuffed in.

    Except for independent sources, of course. The “George Floyd Autonomous Zone” could be cleared in less than an hour, if the Minneapolis government wanted that to happen. So this thing is as much a creation of the Minneapolis political (and social) leadership as the CHOP out in Seattle. That means the city of Minnie owns it. Including the gunfire.

    https://thepostmillennial.com/shooting-near-george-floyd-autonomous-zone-in-minneapolis-on-the-eve-of-chauvin-trial

    This is on the head of Minnie city government, and every libtard who supports it.

  124. @Reg Cæsar
    @Dieter Kief


    Btw. – George Floyd was pronounced dead at 9:25
     
    Pronounced Dead at the Scene would be a killer name for a rap act. But it's probably already been used for a rock band. Is there a database for this?

    Replies: @black sea, @Dieter Kief

    Pronounced Dead at the Scene would be a killer name for a rap act. But it’s probably already been used for a rock band. Is there a database for this?

    Yes, there are numerous reports which have the same wording that struck me – may I say: Interesting? – too:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52861726

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_George_Floyd

    7. “VERY weird that upon arrival the so called emts didn’t try ANY KIND of life saving procedures whatsoever.”The Hennepin Healthcare Emergency Medical Services (EMS) head suggested in an interview that EMS workers could save time by treating a patient in an ambulance instead of unloading all relevant medical equipment (here).ADVERTISEMENT8. “VERY weird that if he was dead upon the emts arrival they didnt block the area off to let internal investigations come to investigate the CRIME SCENE of a police related homicide which is standard protocol.”The time of death of George Floyd was recorded as 9.25 p.m. (here), almost an hour after paramedics had moved him from the scene (here).   
    These sentences are from this report of Reuters

    https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-floyd-claims-idUSKBN23J2JK

    The one report that says what I – quite clearly, but – you never know – – – remember explicitly: That George Floyd did not die on the street but in the – – – – Hennepin-county-hospital (another short story in eight strong syllables) I have been looking for, but could not find.

    (If it should exist, maybe res could get a hold of it – res is the Great Finder.)

  125. anon[257] • Disclaimer says:
    @obwandiyag
    The fact he was a junkie is a red herring.

    The real fact is that if the cop had done this to a white guy you would be screaming bloody murder. You guys are so transparent.

    Replies: @anon

    The fact he was a junkie is a red herring.

    No evidence of heroin in George Floyd’s bloodstream. It’s not the 70’s, dude, check your calendar.

    The real fact is that if the cop had done this to a white guy you would be screaming bloody murder.

    Nah. The killing of Daniel Shaver in Arizona and subsequent events was obviously very bad, but nobody here was screaming anything, and even you should have noticed that.

    You guys are so transparent.

    It is odd that you are so pitifully bad at lying, given how much you practice. Can’t decide which you are worse at, lying or trolling. Probably the power of “and” is a solution.

    • Replies: @obwandiyag
    @anon

    Better get your program updated. Your shill bot babble-o-mation is fraying. It's on the fritz. Striving, and failing, to make sense of the more complex intellectual pronunciamenti--such as my own--it sputters, coughs, and poops out.

  126. anon[304] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D
    @Wilkey

    Very little chance of an outright acquittal. Hopefully a hung jury will not be enough to provoke rioting. They retry him a couple of more times and give up because they can never get a unanimous verdict to convict and by his 3rd trial people will have lost interest. That's the best possible outcome.

    2nd best is that he's convicted of some lesser offense. Does a couple of years and then is quietly released on parole. If you look at the greatest good for the greatest # of people, it's better for Chauvin to do a couple of years than for half of America to burn again and numerous people to die in the rioting. It sucks for Chauvin but sometimes you gotta take one for the team. The shopkeepers of MN should take up a collection for Chauvin because it would be cheaper to pay him to sit in prison than for every retail premises to be looted.

    TBH, whether or not Floyd ODed, Chauvin is guilty of SOMETHING. Being stubborn and stupid at the very least. Even if the primary cause of death was the Fentanyl, keeping Floyd in that position for so long didn't help. I don't care what his training said, at some point you have to adjust to the situation and not just keep doing the same thing. Yes at the beginning Floyd is talking up a storm and clearly getting air. But at some point he blacks out and Chauvin still doesn't move a muscle. I'm guessing that being heckled by the crowd didn't help - he didn't want to back down and lose face. Pride cometh before the fall.

    BTW, the evidence of overdose is very marginal. Addicts like Floyd develop tolerance to opiates so that a dose that would kill a horse just gives them a pleasant buzz.

    Replies: @Inquiring Mind, @Buffalo Joe, @Jim Christian, @AnotherDad, @AnotherDad, @Art Deco, @anon

    They got a 3rd degree murder charge slipped in.

    Minnesota law originally defined third-degree murder solely as depraved-heart murder (“without intent to effect the death of any person, caus[ing] the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life”).[7][8] In 1987, an additional drug-related provision (“without intent to cause death, proximately caus[ing] the death of a human being by, directly or indirectly, unlawfully selling, giving away, bartering, delivering, exchanging, distributing, or administering a controlled substance classified in Schedule I or II”) was added to the definition of third-degree murder.

    The prosecutors are hell bent to get this charge included. Although they should charge the guy who sold Floyd the fentynol.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @anon

    The traditional example of depraved heart murder was blindly firing into a crowd but if you read this statute closely (as the Mn. Appeals Court did) it doesn't say that it has to be a crowd (although I read "eminently dangerous to others" - others plural as meaning it can't be dangerous to just one person - Chauvin's knee was not dangerous to anyone but Floyd).

    But that's how they got the Somali cop who shot the Australian woman and they are basing Chauvin's situation on his precedent. I don't think this is anything like that - the Somali was in fact aiming at the woman and it's true that he didn't check the field of fire to see if there was anyone behind her and he could have shot others too, but what he did wasn't depraved heart either. It was just plain intentional murder - imperfect self-defense where you think you are defending yourself but the other person is not really a threat.

  127. @Art Deco
    @vhrm

    From all the reporting and analysis it appears it’s impossible to tell with any level of confidence just how much the fentanyl and his fluid filled lungs and enlarged heart contributed to his death. It could be 1%, 10% or 90%…

    Again, the level of fentanyl in his femoral blood was 11 nanograms per cc. That's a lethal dose and that's a middling figure for an overdose death.

    Replies: @vhrm

    The medical/forensic comments i’ve seen point out that the fatal level for a given individual varies a LOT depending on their usage history and they’re equivocal on whether that was a fatal dose for Floyd.

    If you have something solid that says otherwise i’d be glad to see it.

    For the 15+ minutes of interaction before he died he seemed relatively stable in his intoxicated state which is (afaik) not consistent with ODing on a fast acting opioid like fentanyl. For a snorted fentanyl w/o cocaine or something to offset it he should’ve been passing out within minutes.

    If they’d found some fentanyl in his stomach that suggested he’d just taken some that way and thus his blood level was still rising… then that would be more suggestive, but afaik they didn’t.

    Not an expert and not saying that the fentanyl wasn’t a big part of the story and possibly the majority of the story via reduced lung capacity / function, induced paranoia, etc., but the “he took too much fen and would have died anyway” is not very convincing given the available evidence.

    • Replies: @anon
    @vhrm

    For the 15+ minutes of interaction before he died he seemed relatively stable in his intoxicated state which is (afaik) not consistent with ODing on a fast acting opioid like fentanyl. For a snorted fentanyl w/o cocaine or something to offset it he should’ve been passing out within minutes.

    But he apparently was infusing his drugs intra-rectally. It is called "hooping" and is not uncommon.

    If they’d found some fentanyl in his stomach that suggested he’d just taken some that way and thus his blood level was still rising… then that would be more suggestive, but afaik they didn’t.

    If there were no drugs in his stomach that would not be a surprise. But there was a concentration of drugs in his bloodstream, that also is not a surprise.

    Not an expert and not saying that the fentanyl wasn’t a big part of the story and possibly the majority of the story via reduced lung capacity / function, induced paranoia, etc., but the “he took too much fen and would have died anyway” is not very convincing given the available evidence.

    What evidence are you referring to? The little packet of powder that he placed on the sidewalk beside him, the concentration of Fentanyl and meth in his bloodstream, the way he was foaming at the mouth, the difficulty breathing even before any officer touched him, or something else?

    , @Jack D
    @vhrm

    Doesn't have to be 100% convincing. Just has to be enough to introduce reasonable doubt in the mind of at least 1 juror.

    There is evidence on the video that Floyd had something on his tongue which he swallowed. It's pretty common for drug users to try to swallow their drugs so they can't be charged with possession.

    This is obviously a polarizing case so people are taking extreme positions. Floyd's death is ENTIRELY due to drug overdose. Chauvin hardly touched him. He just caressed him with his knee a little bit. Or else that cracker policeman choked the life out of Saint Floyd. Real life is not so black and white. It's quite possible that Floyd's death was in part due to the amount of drugs he had taken and in part due to Chauvin's action. The courts will have to sort out whether Chauvin's action rose to the level of criminal responsibility.

    , @Art Deco
    @vhrm

    He was foaming at the mouth.

    , @Chrisnonymous
    @vhrm

    I tend to agree. I don't have any experience witnessing overdoses, only limited experiences administering opioids in a hospital setting, but I don't think Floyd is what an OD on opioids would look like--he should have been getting progressively less agitated and more sleepy and not complaining of stomach pain if his system were being overloaded with opioids. I think the most likely scenario is that his heart and lung issues came from stress and adrenaline*, and that when he was claiming pain in his stomach and an inability to breath, he was actually experiencing a heart attack.

    However, I think Chauvin and the other experienced officer likely did think Chauvin was high, whether he was or not, and the less experienced officers were following their lead.

    What actually killed Floyd? Likely, the lateness of the ambulance. I don't think the police had Narcan and maybe not an AED (do police carry them in cruisers? they should, but maybe not) and CPR is not really that affective outside hospitals. Could Chauvin have saved Floyd by letting him stand up? If the problem was lung and heart arrest from stress, I doubt it because the stress had started back when the police arrived, not when Chauvin restrained him.

    * When we were discussing this over the summer on iSteve, I did find some medical info on lung s getting full of fluid as a reaction to adrenaline, although it's unusual and usually associated with the extreme stress of Narcan administration. I think Floyd's history of COVID makes the lung fluid=OD hypothesis suspect too.

    , @Negrolphin Pool
    @vhrm

    St. Fentanyl's cardiac state was dire. His heart weighed nearly twice normal, and the autopsy report stated that he had both ventricular dilatation and high grade coronary artery occlusions.

    Ingesting sub-lethal drug coctails could have killed him as could have stumbling to his getaway van.

    It is more likely than not that the police encounter was the proximate cause of his death. But Chauvin did nothing more than crunch a very costly mayfly under his knee.

  128. @AnotherDad
    @Jack D

    Jack, why have you wasted your life as yet-another-lawyer, hiding out in some office pushing around paper. If only we had your brains out on the street, instead of these goyishe kopfs, racial harmony would be at hand.

    I eagerly await the Officer JackD subdues overdosing big black thug with perfectly calibrated use of force video.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Dieter Kief

    subdues overdosing big black thug

    The perfect illustration of your comment is in Tom Wolfe’s a tad underrated (maybe even by our host, who holds Tom Wolfe usually in high esteem) novel Back to Blood.

    An epic description of what it means to do what you mention.

    When the epic fight breaks out, a well-meaning young woman (a student) sits under a table and watches it – in all graphic detail (German translation ca. p. 330, if I remember well). And in the course of the reflection of these things, the lines occur, which – are the title of the book (a title, the German publisher of it did not risk to translate…).

    In other words: If you haven’t read this novel yet – give it a try! – Lots of everyday police work in it! – and – now comes the highlight: Even an example of how deceptive videos can be for the public opinion about an important event (if that sounds somehow like the George Floyd case – well: Structurally, it is. Wolfe pinned the deceptive nature of videos down in this book, a lesson, everybody could take advantage of in our times of the utter abundance of such – “video proof”.

  129. @njguy73
    @Luzzatto

    If George Floyd was White, no one outside of his hometown would have heard of him, or given a crap about him if they knew.

    Replies: @Luzzatto, @obwandiyag

    If George Floyd was White it would have made the local news atleast. Somebody would have eventually posted it here on The Unz as an example of police brutality against unarmed White men and everybody here on The Unz would have said Derek Chauvin knees on a White man’s neck caused the White man to die!

    • Replies: @No Recent Commenting History
    @Luzzatto

    If George Floyd was White

    •Troll

  130. @Blodgie
    Chauvin should do serious time.

    For being an utter dipshit.

    A black guy is filming you with your knee on another black guy’s neck while saying he can’t breathe and Chauvin can’t understand the fucking optics of that?

    90 IQ cop.

    He went to Normandale Community College for Food Preparation.

    But as a union cop had two houses!

    Fuck the police and fuck him.

    Replies: @William Badwhite

    can’t understand the fucking optics of that?

    Fuck the police and fuck him.

    Fuck you and the other commenters that actually take the time to type the f-word. Are you twelve and just learned this word? Are you so poorly read that you think this word adds heft to whatever it is you were babbling on about?

    Coarse, immature, semi-literates such as you make everything and everyone around them worse. Grow up. Then fuck off.

  131. @Anonymous
    @Jack D

    Can Chauvin and his lawyer opt for a judge trial instead? Maybe a three-judge panel? Even a liberal judge might be preferable if the defense case is strong, no?

    Replies: @anon, @Chris Renner, @Deep Anonymous

    According to the Minnesota Rules of Criminal Procedure, 26.01(2)(c), a defendant “must be
    permitted to waive a jury trial whenever the court determines” that his waiver is knowing and voluntary (always a due process requirement) and that “reason exists to believe that, because of the dissemination of potentially prejudicial material, the waiver must be granted to assure a fair trial.”

    So it certainly appears that Chauvin could have insisted on a bench trial, but it gives the court some leeway to deny his request. In other jurisdictions, the rule differs. In federal court, for example, the Government must agree to permit a defendant to waive a jury trial. In contrast, in Maryland, a defendant has an absolute right to waive a jury trial, and, interestingly enough, the defendants in the Freddie Gray trials all did so and were acquitted by a very brave Black judge, Hon. Barry Williams, in Baltimore City.

  132. anon[763] • Disclaimer says:
    @vhrm
    @Art Deco

    The medical/forensic comments i've seen point out that the fatal level for a given individual varies a LOT depending on their usage history and they're equivocal on whether that was a fatal dose for Floyd.

    If you have something solid that says otherwise i'd be glad to see it.

    For the 15+ minutes of interaction before he died he seemed relatively stable in his intoxicated state which is (afaik) not consistent with ODing on a fast acting opioid like fentanyl. For a snorted fentanyl w/o cocaine or something to offset it he should've been passing out within minutes.

    If they'd found some fentanyl in his stomach that suggested he'd just taken some that way and thus his blood level was still rising... then that would be more suggestive, but afaik they didn't.

    Not an expert and not saying that the fentanyl wasn't a big part of the story and possibly the majority of the story via reduced lung capacity / function, induced paranoia, etc., but the "he took too much fen and would have died anyway" is not very convincing given the available evidence.

    Replies: @anon, @Jack D, @Art Deco, @Chrisnonymous, @Negrolphin Pool

    For the 15+ minutes of interaction before he died he seemed relatively stable in his intoxicated state which is (afaik) not consistent with ODing on a fast acting opioid like fentanyl. For a snorted fentanyl w/o cocaine or something to offset it he should’ve been passing out within minutes.

    But he apparently was infusing his drugs intra-rectally. It is called “hooping” and is not uncommon.

    If they’d found some fentanyl in his stomach that suggested he’d just taken some that way and thus his blood level was still rising… then that would be more suggestive, but afaik they didn’t.

    If there were no drugs in his stomach that would not be a surprise. But there was a concentration of drugs in his bloodstream, that also is not a surprise.

    Not an expert and not saying that the fentanyl wasn’t a big part of the story and possibly the majority of the story via reduced lung capacity / function, induced paranoia, etc., but the “he took too much fen and would have died anyway” is not very convincing given the available evidence.

    What evidence are you referring to? The little packet of powder that he placed on the sidewalk beside him, the concentration of Fentanyl and meth in his bloodstream, the way he was foaming at the mouth, the difficulty breathing even before any officer touched him, or something else?

  133. @vhrm
    @Art Deco

    The medical/forensic comments i've seen point out that the fatal level for a given individual varies a LOT depending on their usage history and they're equivocal on whether that was a fatal dose for Floyd.

    If you have something solid that says otherwise i'd be glad to see it.

    For the 15+ minutes of interaction before he died he seemed relatively stable in his intoxicated state which is (afaik) not consistent with ODing on a fast acting opioid like fentanyl. For a snorted fentanyl w/o cocaine or something to offset it he should've been passing out within minutes.

    If they'd found some fentanyl in his stomach that suggested he'd just taken some that way and thus his blood level was still rising... then that would be more suggestive, but afaik they didn't.

    Not an expert and not saying that the fentanyl wasn't a big part of the story and possibly the majority of the story via reduced lung capacity / function, induced paranoia, etc., but the "he took too much fen and would have died anyway" is not very convincing given the available evidence.

    Replies: @anon, @Jack D, @Art Deco, @Chrisnonymous, @Negrolphin Pool

    Doesn’t have to be 100% convincing. Just has to be enough to introduce reasonable doubt in the mind of at least 1 juror.

    There is evidence on the video that Floyd had something on his tongue which he swallowed. It’s pretty common for drug users to try to swallow their drugs so they can’t be charged with possession.

    This is obviously a polarizing case so people are taking extreme positions. Floyd’s death is ENTIRELY due to drug overdose. Chauvin hardly touched him. He just caressed him with his knee a little bit. Or else that cracker policeman choked the life out of Saint Floyd. Real life is not so black and white. It’s quite possible that Floyd’s death was in part due to the amount of drugs he had taken and in part due to Chauvin’s action. The courts will have to sort out whether Chauvin’s action rose to the level of criminal responsibility.

    • Agree: vhrm
  134. @Anonymous
    @Sean

    So those officers could have saved him with Narcan then, it would seem.

    Chauvin is really not someone to fight for. If you want to talk about injustice, a real injustice is how the US Justice department is attempting to destroy many hundreds of people in the Capitol Hill protests, including many people who didn't hurt a fly didn't resist any police and just followed the crowd in.

    Did you know congressman Jamie Raskin -- who led impeachment over the January 6 'storming of congress' -- literally participated in a huge illegal storming of congress on June 28th, 2018? I am not joking. His righteous outrage over January 6th ignores the unbelievable fact that he participated in something awfully similar, the illegal storming inside congress by a huge mob -- only two years before. It was the Hart Senate Office Building rather than the Capitol so you get very different imagery but the crimes hundreds of January 6th protesters are being charged with could apply here.

    https://www.rollcall.com/2018/06/28/photos-of-the-day-575-protesters-charged-at-senates-hart-building-at-immigration-rally/

    If you want to understand a two-tiered justice system in action, here you go, but you should be sitting down because it is hard to take:

    Eight Times When Leftist Protestors Illegally Mobbed Congress with Trump as President

    (1) June 28th 2018: “Photos of the Day: 575 Protesters Charged at Senate’s Hart Building at Immigration Rally ”
    https://www.rollcall.com/2018/06/28/photos-of-the-day-575-protesters-charged-at-senates-hart-building-at-immigration-rally/
    “An afternoon of protests ended in many arrests in the Hart Senate Office Building on Thursday as a group of mostly female protesters flooded the atrium of the work space to protest President Donald Trump’s immigration policies.
    United States Capitol Police charged nearly 575 individuals with “unlawfully demonstrating,” according to a Capitol Police statement Thursday.”

    (2) October 4th 2018: “Amy Schumer among 302 arrested for Senate office protests on Kavanaugh”
    That would be incoming Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer’s cousin Amy Schumer illegally entering and protesting in Congress along with a gang of more than 300 others.
    https://www.kalb.com/content/news/Amy-Schumer-among-302-arrested-for-Senate-office-protests-on-Kavanaugh-495221031.html
    “U.S. Capitol Police said that 302 people were arrested Thursday for illegally protesting inside the Senate office buildings against the Supreme Court nomination of Brett Kavanaugh.”

    (3) July 25, 2017: “USCP Arrest Protesters for Demonstration Activity on Capitol Grounds”
    https://www.uscp.gov/media-center/press-releases/uscp-arrest-protesters-demonstration-activity-capitol-grounds
    “Officers on the scene arrested the demonstrators when they failed to cease and desist with their unlawful demonstration activities. Thirty-one demonstrators were charged with DC Code §10-503.16 - Disruption of Congress.
    At approximately 2:55 p.m., USCP officers responded to the atrium of the Hart Senate Office Building for reported demonstration activities. Sixty-four individuals were arrested after refusing to cease and desist with their unlawful demonstration activities. They were charged with D.C. Code §22-1307, Crowding, Obstructing, or Incommoding.”

    (4) July 18th, 2019: “70 Catholic protesters arrested in D.C. demonstration against Trump's immigration policies”
    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/70-catholic-protesters-arrested-in-washington-dc-demonstration-against-trump-immigration-policies/
    “U.S. Capitol Police said 70 protesters were arrested for unlawfully demonstrating, and were charged with crowding, obstructing, or incommoding, which is a misdemeanor.”

    (5) June 22, 2017: “Capitol Police arrest 43 protesters at ‘die-in’ in Senate office building”
    https://wtop.com/dc/2017/06/capitol-police-arrest-43-protesters-die-senate-office-building/
    “U.S. Capitol Police said 70 protesters were arrested for unlawfully demonstrating, and were charged with crowding, obstructing, or incommoding, which is a misdemeanor.”

    (6) January 17th 2018: “Dozens of people arrested during DACA protest in Russell Senate Building in D.C.”
    https://wjla.com/news/local/dozens-of-people-arrested-during-daca-protest-in-russell-senate-building-in-dc
    “WASHINGTON (ABC7) — Over 50 people have been arrested Wednesday during a Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) Sit-in protest inside the Russell Senate Office Building on Capitol Hill in Washington, D.C.”

    (7) October 5th, 2018: “U.S. Capitol Police Respond to Multiple Instances of Unlawful Demonstration Activities”
    https://www.uscp.gov/media-center/press-releases/us-capitol-police-respond-multiple-instances-unlawful-demonstration
    “United States Capitol Police officers responded to multiple instances of unlawful demonstration activities on Friday, October 5, 2018.
    A total of 101 individuals were arrested. Additional details are below.
    During the course of the day, 78 individuals were arrested throughout the Senate Office Buildings, and they were charged with D.C. Code §22-1307, Crowding, Obstructing, or Incommoding.”

    (8) September 25th 2017: “Capitol police arrest 181 during protests at Graham-Cassidy bill hearing”
    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/capitol-police-arrest-181-during-protests-at-graham-cassidy-bill-hearing
    “The U.S. Capitol Police arrested a total of 181 people for protesting during a Senate Finance Committee hearing regarding the Graham-Cassidy healthcare bill on Monday.”

    Replies: @Art Deco, @Sean

    So those officers could have saved him with Narcan then, it would seem.

    Not sure that’s an option when your lungs are filled with fluid.

  135. @vhrm
    @Art Deco

    The medical/forensic comments i've seen point out that the fatal level for a given individual varies a LOT depending on their usage history and they're equivocal on whether that was a fatal dose for Floyd.

    If you have something solid that says otherwise i'd be glad to see it.

    For the 15+ minutes of interaction before he died he seemed relatively stable in his intoxicated state which is (afaik) not consistent with ODing on a fast acting opioid like fentanyl. For a snorted fentanyl w/o cocaine or something to offset it he should've been passing out within minutes.

    If they'd found some fentanyl in his stomach that suggested he'd just taken some that way and thus his blood level was still rising... then that would be more suggestive, but afaik they didn't.

    Not an expert and not saying that the fentanyl wasn't a big part of the story and possibly the majority of the story via reduced lung capacity / function, induced paranoia, etc., but the "he took too much fen and would have died anyway" is not very convincing given the available evidence.

    Replies: @anon, @Jack D, @Art Deco, @Chrisnonymous, @Negrolphin Pool

    He was foaming at the mouth.

  136. @anonymous
    I used to believe that any type of real murder conviction entailed proving that the defendant had some pre meditated intent to kill the person that died.

    If the defendant was just roughing someone up, doing something dangerous and wrong, but there ws no intent to kill, that was considered some form of manslaughter.

    But, with everything now looked through the lens of racial resentments, "hate crimes" politicalization, a "murder" charge just entails it's more of a media morality show trial.

    Can anyone left on Unz who does know criminal law from say before 1965 clear this up for me. Did "murder" used to entail a pre meditated intent to kill someone? What would the Perry Mason TV show think about that?

    thanks

    J Ryan
    Left Behind in Chicago
    The Obama Foundation is stealing my backyard Andrew Jackson Lakefront public park to build a cult of personality temple the "Obama Presidential Center" - it was first presented as a Presidential Library but everyone now agrees it's not any kind of library. Park purists are furious, but so where the religious Jews living in Jerusalem when the Roman Emperor Caligula declared himself to be Jupiter God and made tax payers build a temple to worship him in occupied Roman Palestine - Religious Jews revolted. We'll see how the White Liberal Park lovers do with the OPC Obama cult of personality 22 story temple.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Deep Anonymous

    There are several degrees of murder, not all of which require premeditation. Chauvin has been charged with a least 3 to give the jury a choice. One charge is manslaughter, which is traditionally killing in the heat of combat – you start out in a fistfight with someone, not intending to kill them, and matters escalate and you end up killing them – no premeditation. Another charge, just re-added today, is “depraved heart” murder – you act with extreme recklessness, such as dropping a cinder block off an overpass over a busy highway. You’re just chucking stuff off the bridge for fun but the block goes thru the windshield of a passing car and kills a motorist. Again no premeditation. These types of murder have been in the law for centuries.

    The sentences vary – maybe life for intentional homicide, 40 years for depraved heart and 25 for manslaughter. Prosecutors like to give a jury a choice because if there are holdouts, they can often be persuaded to go for a compromise verdict. Maybe it’s 10 to 2 for intentional homicide so you persuade the 2 holdouts that everyone will vote for manslaughter instead. Cut the baby in half and we can all go home. No one tells the jury in advance that manslaughter is 25 years so it’s little better than intentional.

  137. @anonymous
    I used to believe that any type of real murder conviction entailed proving that the defendant had some pre meditated intent to kill the person that died.

    If the defendant was just roughing someone up, doing something dangerous and wrong, but there ws no intent to kill, that was considered some form of manslaughter.

    But, with everything now looked through the lens of racial resentments, "hate crimes" politicalization, a "murder" charge just entails it's more of a media morality show trial.

    Can anyone left on Unz who does know criminal law from say before 1965 clear this up for me. Did "murder" used to entail a pre meditated intent to kill someone? What would the Perry Mason TV show think about that?

    thanks

    J Ryan
    Left Behind in Chicago
    The Obama Foundation is stealing my backyard Andrew Jackson Lakefront public park to build a cult of personality temple the "Obama Presidential Center" - it was first presented as a Presidential Library but everyone now agrees it's not any kind of library. Park purists are furious, but so where the religious Jews living in Jerusalem when the Roman Emperor Caligula declared himself to be Jupiter God and made tax payers build a temple to worship him in occupied Roman Palestine - Religious Jews revolted. We'll see how the White Liberal Park lovers do with the OPC Obama cult of personality 22 story temple.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Deep Anonymous

    Not necessarily. Traditional common law definition of murder is a homicide done with malice. (Homicide, in turn, is any unlawful killing of another human being.) There are four ways the prosecution can prove malice:

    1. Intent to kill;
    2. intent to inflict such grievous bodily injury that death would be the likely result;
    3. depraved heart; and
    4. felony murder.

    Oversimplifying a little, depraved heart means an extreme indifference to human life akin to recklessness. Examples: firing a weapon in a crowded area and a ricochet strikes and kills someone; engaging in a pattern of extreme child abuse (e.g. locking a child in a closet and feeding him or her only sporadically) whereupon the child dies of neglect.

    Felony murder means that if a homicide occurs during the course of committing one of an enumerated list of felonies (or in some jurisdictions any felony that creates a heightened risk to life), that homicide counts as murder. Example: getaway driver in an armed robbery can be found guilty of felony murder if the gunman shoots and kills someone in the course of committing the holdup. Also the second example in the previous paragraph can lead to felony murder. (Taken from Fisher v. State, a notorious Maryland case from around 20 years ago.)

  138. @Art Deco
    @AnotherDad

    The problem with this argument is that working class blacks behave quite normally. You have a modest (rather feral) minority, you have a word merchant element, you have the sorosphere paid agitators, and you have gentry liberals. Your problem is the sorosphere racket and gentry liberals generally. You cannot carve out a separate homeland for them. You can only arrest them and deport them.

    Replies: @vhrm

    You cannot carve out a separate homeland for them. You can only arrest them and deport them.

    Or, accept HBD, ignore race and just prosecute individuals who commit crimes and put them in prison to keep them away from society for increasingly long periods until they get older and chill out.

    Basically accept that the criminal justice system will serve as holding-pen and self-control school for some number of slow to develop people.

    We already HAVE the system (1) and have had the system and it more or less works.

    There literally IS NO PROBLEM except that people are unwilling to accept “the race gaps”: i.e. that there will ALWAYS be disproportionately many blacks arrested, and in jail and in prison etc.

    And with criminal justice, more than with education or jobs or income, there is a very close parallel that everyone already accepts as obvious and ok:
    Men vs women. There are 10x as many men in prisons as women. 10x. (2)
    Which is the bigger cause of this massive gap? misandry or biological differences between men and women?

    This isn’t aimed at you particularly, it more addresses AnotherDad’s suggestion of apartheid and similar “there’s no solution!” type thoughts. It just kind of fit here in the conversation flow.

    1) though tbh i think prisons should have more services and think in the rather leftist terms of overall harm reduction to society and rehabilitation rather than thinking in terms of inflicting pain and discomfort as punishment, but i know it’s much easier said then done, especially for finite $$.

    2) https://www.prisonpolicy.org/articles/notequal.html

  139. Just one other point to follow up (and to clarify something Jack D said). Generally manslaughter is a homicide without proof of malice. In addition to the example Jack gave, another possibility is where a defendant was in a fight and entitled to exercise self-defense, but the means he employed were unreasonable–say someone shoved him and the defendant responded by discharging a firearm and killing the guy who shoved him. Another possibility is what is known as “hot blooded response to a legally adequate provocation.” Classic example was catching your wife in bed with another man and you kill him in a blind rage, but in the modern era that typically is murder rather than manslaughter.

    Yet another kind of manslaughter is causing a homicide while engaged in an unlawful act.

    And each state has different statutory schemes in derogation of the common law. Not entirely familiar with Minnesota’s, but 25 years for third-degree murder is substantial. Just perusing a NY Post article, it appears that Minnesota third-degree murder is substantially similar to depraved heart murder.

  140. @Anonymous
    @Sean

    So those officers could have saved him with Narcan then, it would seem.

    Chauvin is really not someone to fight for. If you want to talk about injustice, a real injustice is how the US Justice department is attempting to destroy many hundreds of people in the Capitol Hill protests, including many people who didn't hurt a fly didn't resist any police and just followed the crowd in.

    Did you know congressman Jamie Raskin -- who led impeachment over the January 6 'storming of congress' -- literally participated in a huge illegal storming of congress on June 28th, 2018? I am not joking. His righteous outrage over January 6th ignores the unbelievable fact that he participated in something awfully similar, the illegal storming inside congress by a huge mob -- only two years before. It was the Hart Senate Office Building rather than the Capitol so you get very different imagery but the crimes hundreds of January 6th protesters are being charged with could apply here.

    https://www.rollcall.com/2018/06/28/photos-of-the-day-575-protesters-charged-at-senates-hart-building-at-immigration-rally/

    If you want to understand a two-tiered justice system in action, here you go, but you should be sitting down because it is hard to take:

    Eight Times When Leftist Protestors Illegally Mobbed Congress with Trump as President

    (1) June 28th 2018: “Photos of the Day: 575 Protesters Charged at Senate’s Hart Building at Immigration Rally ”
    https://www.rollcall.com/2018/06/28/photos-of-the-day-575-protesters-charged-at-senates-hart-building-at-immigration-rally/
    “An afternoon of protests ended in many arrests in the Hart Senate Office Building on Thursday as a group of mostly female protesters flooded the atrium of the work space to protest President Donald Trump’s immigration policies.
    United States Capitol Police charged nearly 575 individuals with “unlawfully demonstrating,” according to a Capitol Police statement Thursday.”

    (2) October 4th 2018: “Amy Schumer among 302 arrested for Senate office protests on Kavanaugh”
    That would be incoming Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer’s cousin Amy Schumer illegally entering and protesting in Congress along with a gang of more than 300 others.
    https://www.kalb.com/content/news/Amy-Schumer-among-302-arrested-for-Senate-office-protests-on-Kavanaugh-495221031.html
    “U.S. Capitol Police said that 302 people were arrested Thursday for illegally protesting inside the Senate office buildings against the Supreme Court nomination of Brett Kavanaugh.”

    (3) July 25, 2017: “USCP Arrest Protesters for Demonstration Activity on Capitol Grounds”
    https://www.uscp.gov/media-center/press-releases/uscp-arrest-protesters-demonstration-activity-capitol-grounds
    “Officers on the scene arrested the demonstrators when they failed to cease and desist with their unlawful demonstration activities. Thirty-one demonstrators were charged with DC Code §10-503.16 - Disruption of Congress.
    At approximately 2:55 p.m., USCP officers responded to the atrium of the Hart Senate Office Building for reported demonstration activities. Sixty-four individuals were arrested after refusing to cease and desist with their unlawful demonstration activities. They were charged with D.C. Code §22-1307, Crowding, Obstructing, or Incommoding.”

    (4) July 18th, 2019: “70 Catholic protesters arrested in D.C. demonstration against Trump's immigration policies”
    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/70-catholic-protesters-arrested-in-washington-dc-demonstration-against-trump-immigration-policies/
    “U.S. Capitol Police said 70 protesters were arrested for unlawfully demonstrating, and were charged with crowding, obstructing, or incommoding, which is a misdemeanor.”

    (5) June 22, 2017: “Capitol Police arrest 43 protesters at ‘die-in’ in Senate office building”
    https://wtop.com/dc/2017/06/capitol-police-arrest-43-protesters-die-senate-office-building/
    “U.S. Capitol Police said 70 protesters were arrested for unlawfully demonstrating, and were charged with crowding, obstructing, or incommoding, which is a misdemeanor.”

    (6) January 17th 2018: “Dozens of people arrested during DACA protest in Russell Senate Building in D.C.”
    https://wjla.com/news/local/dozens-of-people-arrested-during-daca-protest-in-russell-senate-building-in-dc
    “WASHINGTON (ABC7) — Over 50 people have been arrested Wednesday during a Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) Sit-in protest inside the Russell Senate Office Building on Capitol Hill in Washington, D.C.”

    (7) October 5th, 2018: “U.S. Capitol Police Respond to Multiple Instances of Unlawful Demonstration Activities”
    https://www.uscp.gov/media-center/press-releases/us-capitol-police-respond-multiple-instances-unlawful-demonstration
    “United States Capitol Police officers responded to multiple instances of unlawful demonstration activities on Friday, October 5, 2018.
    A total of 101 individuals were arrested. Additional details are below.
    During the course of the day, 78 individuals were arrested throughout the Senate Office Buildings, and they were charged with D.C. Code §22-1307, Crowding, Obstructing, or Incommoding.”

    (8) September 25th 2017: “Capitol police arrest 181 during protests at Graham-Cassidy bill hearing”
    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/capitol-police-arrest-181-during-protests-at-graham-cassidy-bill-hearing
    “The U.S. Capitol Police arrested a total of 181 people for protesting during a Senate Finance Committee hearing regarding the Graham-Cassidy healthcare bill on Monday.”

    Replies: @Art Deco, @Sean

    Just because something is deemed lawful by the district attorney (as Chauvin’s actions originally were) doesn’t mean it’s appropriate and in line with what police training is to do in that situation. Chauvin would have been dismissed from the police as a result of that incident, because his superiors would have decided he was trouble, of that I am pretty sure,

    It is important to remember that Floyd could be committing an offense of resisting arrest, without that absolving Chauvin of responsibility. Failing to obey commands does not give the arresting officers license to physically punish the resister without being held to be committing an assault. It goes without saying that for police–as for anyone else–a person dying is a circumstance that practice alters whether something is deemed to have been an assault; that is just common sense.

    Almost uniquely, in Minnesota if you commit a crime of assault and the person dies you can be convicted of felony murder with the prosecution only having to prove an assault, meaning there is only one element that the prosecution has to prove.

    • Replies: @anon
    @Sean

    Just because something is deemed lawful by the district attorney (as Chauvin’s actions originally were) doesn’t mean it’s appropriate and in line with what police training is to do in that situation.

    Chavin's actions were in keeping with the MPD policy as of last year. Multiple people have already gone over this with you: you are wrong.

    The jury selection is ongoing. In time the trial will come to a conclusion. Are you planning to take your opinion to the George Floyd Autonomous Zone in Minnie, or just whine endlessly in comments?

    Replies: @Sean

  141. @Jack D
    @Buffalo Joe

    Joe, please read the link that Steve gives at the head of this post. The author (who seems knowledgeable and fair minded) says:


    Very roughly and with all possible caveats, this [Floyd's] concentration seems to be more or less on the high end of non-addict overdoses and on the low end of addict overdoses. Would it certainly, without a doubt have killed him? Can’t say.
     
    Implying, as we know, that addict and non-addict overdoses for opiates are at different levels because addicts gain tolerance to them. There is not one single lethal dose level for opiates. Sadly, this is why the people who die of drug overdose are often not the most hardened addicts but people who have just started using or even using for the first time.

    Aside from that, lethal dose is usually expressed as "LD50" which means that this is the concentration at which 50% of recipients can be expected to die. In fact that's how they determine the lethal dose - they give the drug in increasing concentration to mice or some other animal and they measure the level at which half of them drop dead. In other words, even at the so called "lethal" dose, half of all recipients survive.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

    Jack, thank you for the expanded explanation.

  142. @anon
    @Jack D

    They got a 3rd degree murder charge slipped in.


    Minnesota law originally defined third-degree murder solely as depraved-heart murder ("without intent to effect the death of any person, caus[ing] the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life").[7][8] In 1987, an additional drug-related provision ("without intent to cause death, proximately caus[ing] the death of a human being by, directly or indirectly, unlawfully selling, giving away, bartering, delivering, exchanging, distributing, or administering a controlled substance classified in Schedule I or II") was added to the definition of third-degree murder.
     
    The prosecutors are hell bent to get this charge included. Although they should charge the guy who sold Floyd the fentynol.

    Replies: @Jack D

    The traditional example of depraved heart murder was blindly firing into a crowd but if you read this statute closely (as the Mn. Appeals Court did) it doesn’t say that it has to be a crowd (although I read “eminently dangerous to others” – others plural as meaning it can’t be dangerous to just one person – Chauvin’s knee was not dangerous to anyone but Floyd).

    But that’s how they got the Somali cop who shot the Australian woman and they are basing Chauvin’s situation on his precedent. I don’t think this is anything like that – the Somali was in fact aiming at the woman and it’s true that he didn’t check the field of fire to see if there was anyone behind her and he could have shot others too, but what he did wasn’t depraved heart either. It was just plain intentional murder – imperfect self-defense where you think you are defending yourself but the other person is not really a threat.

  143. @Jack D
    @AnotherDad

    Being a cop is not something I would ever want to do, but for a blue collar white guy in deindustrialized America it's not a bad gig. In big cities the pensions are generous and kick in early or you can go out on disability and have a 2nd career.

    One of the reasons that these guys get paid fairly well (taking into account salary and benefits) and get to carry a gun is that they are expected to exercise a fairly high level of judgment - they literally have people's lives in their hands. If you are given this kind of power and you, in the judgment of the law, abuse it, you have to be prepared to take the consequences - it comes with the job, just like a bus driver has to be prepared to take the consequences if he drives his bus recklessly. I suppose if you don't want to take those kind of risks you could pursue some other profession where you don't have to interact with humans - then you can never cross the line.

    I'm not the one who has to judge Chauvin - the jury will do that. The old police axiom is that it's better to be judged by twelve than carried by six but in this case Chauvin's life was not on the line, which makes his actions even more inexplicable.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous, @anonymous

    I think your perspective is too dependent on assuming you know what was going on in Chauvin’s head. I too happen to think it’s likely that he acted out of a sense of not wanting the hecklers to be in control of his actions– a kind of pride, perhaps, but it’s confused because as a cop you wouldn’t want a crowd to be dictating your actions. Part of your job, de facto if not de jure, is keeping control of scenes you are at–and indeed, we see Chauvin reach for pepper spray at one point as he is interacting with the crowd. I think Chauvin’s mind likely was split between focusing on Floyd, whom he was waiting for EMTs to take care of, and focusing on the crowd. However, I don’t know that’s the case, and it’s possible that Chauvin’s thought process was more like “this guy is ODing but I don’t have the resources (i.e., Narcan) to deal with that, so I’ve got to keep him calm until the EMTs get here”. In that case, the fact that the ambulance got lost and arrived later than Chauvin expected would a major confounder for Chauvin–at every moment, Chauvin’s decision was between moving Floyd and risking losing control of the situation if Floyd was faking or got agitated again and waiting just a few seconds more for the ambulance. When you consider how our sense of time passing is affected by circumstances, I think it is hard to say for sure that my perception of Chauvin’s “pride” is accurate. Is he guilty of something? Hard to say. In a courtroom, I wouldn’t like to vote to convict on specific charges carefully nuanced in law based on my feeling, possibly wrong, that he did something.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Chrisnonymous

    Maybe Chauvin sensed that Minneapolis blacks were getting inclined to riot?

    , @Anon
    @Chrisnonymous


    In that case, the fact that the ambulance got lost and arrived later than Chauvin expected would a major confounder for Chauvin–at every moment, Chauvin’s decision was between moving Floyd and risking losing control of the situation if Floyd was faking or got agitated again and waiting just a few seconds more for the ambulance. When you consider how our sense of time passing is affected by circumstances, I think it is hard to say for sure that my perception of Chauvin’s “pride” is accurate.
     
    Great post. The entire thing, not just the part excerpted.
  144. @Luzzatto
    @njguy73

    If George Floyd was White it would have made the local news atleast. Somebody would have eventually posted it here on The Unz as an example of police brutality against unarmed White men and everybody here on The Unz would have said Derek Chauvin knees on a White man's neck caused the White man to die!

    Replies: @No Recent Commenting History

    If George Floyd was White

    •Troll

  145. anon[821] • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean
    @Anonymous

    Just because something is deemed lawful by the district attorney (as Chauvin's actions originally were) doesn't mean it's appropriate and in line with what police training is to do in that situation. Chauvin would have been dismissed from the police as a result of that incident, because his superiors would have decided he was trouble, of that I am pretty sure,

    It is important to remember that Floyd could be committing an offense of resisting arrest, without that absolving Chauvin of responsibility. Failing to obey commands does not give the arresting officers license to physically punish the resister without being held to be committing an assault. It goes without saying that for police--as for anyone else--a person dying is a circumstance that practice alters whether something is deemed to have been an assault; that is just common sense.

    Almost uniquely, in Minnesota if you commit a crime of assault and the person dies you can be convicted of felony murder with the prosecution only having to prove an assault, meaning there is only one element that the prosecution has to prove.

    Replies: @anon

    Just because something is deemed lawful by the district attorney (as Chauvin’s actions originally were) doesn’t mean it’s appropriate and in line with what police training is to do in that situation.

    Chavin’s actions were in keeping with the MPD policy as of last year. Multiple people have already gone over this with you: you are wrong.

    The jury selection is ongoing. In time the trial will come to a conclusion. Are you planning to take your opinion to the George Floyd Autonomous Zone in Minnie, or just whine endlessly in comments?

    • Replies: @Sean
    @anon

    Even if Chauvin’s actions were in keeping with the MPD policy as of last year, or what MPD policy currently is and always has been, and even in the case that he was executing commands from the Chief Of Police who was standing there beside Chauvin and Floyd, it would not be a defence in a court of law. A police officer can't use any variety of 'only obeying orders' as an excuse, they are in the same position as any other mentally competent adult, inasmuch they are held to have the sole and undivided responsibility for their actions.

    Replies: @anon

  146. @Jack D
    @AnotherDad

    They tried something like this in S. Africa and it just wasn't workable. And the racial lines were much more clearly drawn in S. Africa. Good luck unscrambling the American omelet.

    Seriously, how do you envision this working? Is it state by state or city by city or do you designate certain parts of each city to belong to one group or another? Would there still be a United States or would there be two (or more) countries? I realize that the "unimaginable" was made real in numerous places in the 20th century thru genocide and "exchange of population" (which in reality is much more bloody than it sounds) but I just don't know how this could be made to work (especially not in a way that would not permanently damage America's stature in the world).

    I understand the impulse - you feel as if you are in a bad marriage and the only solution you see is divorce. But sometimes you have to stay because you can't afford to get divorced. BTW, most men never recover their net worth after a divorce.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @AnotherDad

    Few of points:

    — As i’ve noted before one the of key points of pointing out any sort of “separation” options is that it clear shows whom is looting who.

    If i’m willing to bug off and leave you alone … i’m not the problem. It’s the people who demand contact with other people, demand other people do something for them who are the dependents and parasites. (My parents drafted a “policy on parental support past the age of 18” for me at 16 or so to make this point.)

    — As Art Deco notes, South Africa most certainly did not do this. That’s actually the tragedy for whites there. The rich whites there simply would not give up black labor, and retreat to a white homeland to live as white people. They could have and should have done this. But they didn’t because of … the siren call of cheap labor. Confederacy–however sympathetic i am to their legal argument–same deal. If you want to live and survive as a people you can’t keep around a slave race, serf race, cheap labor race. America’s elites have been heeding siren call of cheap labor the past few decades–intentionally to destroy the nation in our case–and we are getting the predictably bad results.

    — Unscrambling is often considerably less terrible than the alternatives. The post-War unscrambling of Germans wasn’t pleasant. One can say all sorts of things about it. (Lots of nasty stuff usually happens once tribes start fighting and killing each other.) But it’s notable that Europe was pretty darn peaceful for a lot of decades after the War. Some of that is nukes, some the US Army. But a big portion was good clear borders.

    The trouble spots were places like Northern Ireland, which hadn’t been unscrambled–and should simply have been further repartitioned with “movement of populations” instead of tedious dragging on through “the Troubles”. Or the Basques unhappy in Spain. And when the European peace came apart it was precisely where people had not been unscrambled–the Balkans.

    Actually more unscrambling–Lebanon, Israel, the Kurds, Tibet, lots of places in Africa … would be goodness.

    Unfortunately the unscrambling is Europe is being reversed by evil elites–as it is in America.

    Organic unscrambling in the US would actually be quite helpful.

    My rough take is if we could simply stop immigration, pretty much all the ethnic division would resolve in 100 years or so. It wouldn’t be as good as 1960, before the rise of minoritarianism. But in a few generations we’d return to some sort of dominant “whiteish” generic American population with just the remaining legacy of slavery divide.

    But if we aren’t getting that, at least just stop forcing association and conflict. Let people organically sort and organize into the communities they want. It doesn’t bug me if the XYZ are doing their thing over there. Let everyone do it.

    But our hate filled elites just refuse even an once of good sense or decency. Pedal to the metal on immigration and jamming people in each others’ faces. (You must have some Somali primitive rubbing in your face … and love it!)

    — The actual separation needed in the US is between minoritarians (of whatever ethnic group) and Americans (of whatever ethnic group). I.e. it’s political.

    Some people are happy with traditional America–limited republican federal government, rooted in the people and culture of Western Christian civilization, with our own history, heroes, mores, norms … culture. And some–the “diversity is our greatest strength”, “immigration is who we are”–the Rainbow people, aren’t.

    The split is for everyone to pick a side. No one has to pack up. But we chose sides and start building out own separate communities with our separate norms … and get out of each other’s way.

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    @AnotherDad

    I wonder if you are right about South African whites... I think moving from apartheid to separate nations would have been unacceptable to the world. The implicit demand from the world was not for peace but for integration--the world's ideology. Separate nations would have involved forced movement of people and dispossession of some blacks of their property--both would have been derided as racist.

    , @Jack D
    @AnotherDad

    It's a lengthy essay, but I really don't understand AD's Plan of Separation. Are you saying that you intend this only as a rhetorical device to point out the hypocrisy of the minoritarians or do you desire that this plan actually be implemented? If so, how would it work?

  147. @JohnPlywood
    @njguy73

    I hardly ever hear any of these names in the lamestream media. It's like a once-every-couple-of-years, obscured under more relevant headlines type of thing. Maybe once per decade they get blown up again for a short while, usually whenever something big comes up (such as the fact that Emmett Till's accuser was an admitted liar, and that the Central Park 5 were innocent).

    The only people who think of these cases and still talk about them are fringe Leftist activists and their far-Right reflections in the mirror. Regular people have forgotten about them. The average guy on the street doesn't know who Emmet Till or the Central Park 5 were. I've never even heard of the Scottsboro boys before (don't want to know, either).

    Giving these cases attention doesn't seem to be helping the Right win anything tangible. Better to just let the Left fuel these flames with their own coal.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Hallie Scott Kline, @Paperback Writer, @AceDeuce, @Patrick McNally

    Till’s accuser was not a liar, much less an admitted one, and the CP5 were and are guilty as hell.

    Are you like that Tiny Dick parody troll? You can’t be for real.

  148. @vhrm
    @Art Deco

    The medical/forensic comments i've seen point out that the fatal level for a given individual varies a LOT depending on their usage history and they're equivocal on whether that was a fatal dose for Floyd.

    If you have something solid that says otherwise i'd be glad to see it.

    For the 15+ minutes of interaction before he died he seemed relatively stable in his intoxicated state which is (afaik) not consistent with ODing on a fast acting opioid like fentanyl. For a snorted fentanyl w/o cocaine or something to offset it he should've been passing out within minutes.

    If they'd found some fentanyl in his stomach that suggested he'd just taken some that way and thus his blood level was still rising... then that would be more suggestive, but afaik they didn't.

    Not an expert and not saying that the fentanyl wasn't a big part of the story and possibly the majority of the story via reduced lung capacity / function, induced paranoia, etc., but the "he took too much fen and would have died anyway" is not very convincing given the available evidence.

    Replies: @anon, @Jack D, @Art Deco, @Chrisnonymous, @Negrolphin Pool

    I tend to agree. I don’t have any experience witnessing overdoses, only limited experiences administering opioids in a hospital setting, but I don’t think Floyd is what an OD on opioids would look like–he should have been getting progressively less agitated and more sleepy and not complaining of stomach pain if his system were being overloaded with opioids. I think the most likely scenario is that his heart and lung issues came from stress and adrenaline*, and that when he was claiming pain in his stomach and an inability to breath, he was actually experiencing a heart attack.

    However, I think Chauvin and the other experienced officer likely did think Chauvin was high, whether he was or not, and the less experienced officers were following their lead.

    What actually killed Floyd? Likely, the lateness of the ambulance. I don’t think the police had Narcan and maybe not an AED (do police carry them in cruisers? they should, but maybe not) and CPR is not really that affective outside hospitals. Could Chauvin have saved Floyd by letting him stand up? If the problem was lung and heart arrest from stress, I doubt it because the stress had started back when the police arrived, not when Chauvin restrained him.

    * When we were discussing this over the summer on iSteve, I did find some medical info on lung s getting full of fluid as a reaction to adrenaline, although it’s unusual and usually associated with the extreme stress of Narcan administration. I think Floyd’s history of COVID makes the lung fluid=OD hypothesis suspect too.

    • Thanks: vhrm
  149. @AnotherDad
    @Jack D

    Few of points:

    -- As i've noted before one the of key points of pointing out any sort of "separation" options is that it clear shows whom is looting who.

    If i'm willing to bug off and leave you alone ... i'm not the problem. It's the people who demand contact with other people, demand other people do something for them who are the dependents and parasites. (My parents drafted a "policy on parental support past the age of 18" for me at 16 or so to make this point.)


    -- As Art Deco notes, South Africa most certainly did not do this. That's actually the tragedy for whites there. The rich whites there simply would not give up black labor, and retreat to a white homeland to live as white people. They could have and should have done this. But they didn't because of ... the siren call of cheap labor. Confederacy--however sympathetic i am to their legal argument--same deal. If you want to live and survive as a people you can't keep around a slave race, serf race, cheap labor race. America's elites have been heeding siren call of cheap labor the past few decades--intentionally to destroy the nation in our case--and we are getting the predictably bad results.


    -- Unscrambling is often considerably less terrible than the alternatives. The post-War unscrambling of Germans wasn't pleasant. One can say all sorts of things about it. (Lots of nasty stuff usually happens once tribes start fighting and killing each other.) But it's notable that Europe was pretty darn peaceful for a lot of decades after the War. Some of that is nukes, some the US Army. But a big portion was good clear borders.

    The trouble spots were places like Northern Ireland, which hadn't been unscrambled--and should simply have been further repartitioned with "movement of populations" instead of tedious dragging on through "the Troubles". Or the Basques unhappy in Spain. And when the European peace came apart it was precisely where people had not been unscrambled--the Balkans.

    Actually more unscrambling--Lebanon, Israel, the Kurds, Tibet, lots of places in Africa ... would be goodness.

    Unfortunately the unscrambling is Europe is being reversed by evil elites--as it is in America.


    -- Organic unscrambling in the US would actually be quite helpful.

    My rough take is if we could simply stop immigration, pretty much all the ethnic division would resolve in 100 years or so. It wouldn't be as good as 1960, before the rise of minoritarianism. But in a few generations we'd return to some sort of dominant "whiteish" generic American population with just the remaining legacy of slavery divide.

    But if we aren't getting that, at least just stop forcing association and conflict. Let people organically sort and organize into the communities they want. It doesn't bug me if the XYZ are doing their thing over there. Let everyone do it.

    But our hate filled elites just refuse even an once of good sense or decency. Pedal to the metal on immigration and jamming people in each others' faces. (You must have some Somali primitive rubbing in your face ... and love it!)


    -- The actual separation needed in the US is between minoritarians (of whatever ethnic group) and Americans (of whatever ethnic group). I.e. it's political.

    Some people are happy with traditional America--limited republican federal government, rooted in the people and culture of Western Christian civilization, with our own history, heroes, mores, norms ... culture. And some--the "diversity is our greatest strength", "immigration is who we are"--the Rainbow people, aren't.

    The split is for everyone to pick a side. No one has to pack up. But we chose sides and start building out own separate communities with our separate norms ... and get out of each other's way.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous, @Jack D

    I wonder if you are right about South African whites… I think moving from apartheid to separate nations would have been unacceptable to the world. The implicit demand from the world was not for peace but for integration–the world’s ideology. Separate nations would have involved forced movement of people and dispossession of some blacks of their property–both would have been derided as racist.

  150. @JohnPlywood
    @njguy73

    I hardly ever hear any of these names in the lamestream media. It's like a once-every-couple-of-years, obscured under more relevant headlines type of thing. Maybe once per decade they get blown up again for a short while, usually whenever something big comes up (such as the fact that Emmett Till's accuser was an admitted liar, and that the Central Park 5 were innocent).

    The only people who think of these cases and still talk about them are fringe Leftist activists and their far-Right reflections in the mirror. Regular people have forgotten about them. The average guy on the street doesn't know who Emmet Till or the Central Park 5 were. I've never even heard of the Scottsboro boys before (don't want to know, either).

    Giving these cases attention doesn't seem to be helping the Right win anything tangible. Better to just let the Left fuel these flames with their own coal.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Hallie Scott Kline, @Paperback Writer, @AceDeuce, @Patrick McNally

    I can’t tell what part of your statement is sarcasm and what is not, so I’ll just state the point: No one ever found any actual evidence to show that the Central Park 5 were innocent. What happened in that case was that a woman was gang-raped in the midst of a general run-around by 35 or so different black criminals who assaulted and robbed different people to varying degrees. The woman’s rape drew special attention (rightly so) and the medical examination showed that she had clearly been raped by a gang, not by a single individual. The imprints from hands and the like showed that she had been handled by several people.

    Eventually the police settled on 5 suspects who they got to confess to the crime. But it was always clear that there had to have been at least 1 other culprit involved because the semen on the woman did not match with these thuggish punks. They had obviously been a part of the general criminal rampage which involved many more blacks rampaging around Central Park, but the evidence against them in terms of the specific rape charge was not corroborated by semen samples.

    Some years later it happened that another prisoner who was locked away on different charges suddenly popped a confession, His semen was tested and it was verified that he really had been the missing culprit. His confession, however, maintained that he had done this as a sole culprit with no else taking part in the crime. As it happened, this confirmed rapist had apparently had some contact with 1 of the Central Park 5 in a prison where they had been mutual acquaintances.

    This logically suggested that perhaps some parts of his confession might have been faked. He was clearly 1 of the rapists involved, because his semen matched, but was he really the only 1 there or did he have collaborators? The woman who had been victimized wanted a new trial which would have forced all of the original defendants to testify under oath in court with a penalty for perjury at hand.

    As it turned out, New York’s Jewish elite was so eager to clear the accused black criminals (they definitely were criminals, regardless of whether they actually committed the rape at issue) that they were simply cleared without any trial. The story of the rapist having done it all by himself as a 1-man job then became the new kosher version of the Central Park Jogger story. Yet the original medical examinations made it clear that this was definitely not a 1-man job.

    For the sake of argument I’m willing to allow that theoretically there may be a small chance that the Central Park 5 were not the ones who committed the rape (despite their overall participation in the criminal rampage that provided the context for the rape). There actually were enough young aspiring black criminals running around Central Park there that it is theoretically possible that the police arrested the wrong culprits on the rape charges. But it is perfectly clear that any argument for their innocence which hinges on the 1-man job version is false.

    • Replies: @Deep Anonymous
    @Patrick McNally

    I'm almost certain that Nicholas Stix (a dissident Jew, BTW) has written extensively about this travesty of justice, as has Ann Coulter. Their articles probably are archived at VDare.

    , @JohnPlywood
    @Patrick McNally

    That's all very fascinating. Thanks for taking the time to write all of this. However, the public isn't aware of this, and they wouldn't be able to digest it all -- even if it could be condensed in to a TV documentary or something.

    From the public's point of view, CP5 were exonerated, and victims of racism. A judge said it, their lawyers said it, the media said it. That's all that matters. Even if you had equal footing with the media to make your case, the public would still buy the media's narrative, for no other reason than it is simpler and more easily digested than your complex analysis. Most people have an attention span of 5-15 seconds, and your post requires a good solid understanding of a complex gang rape, which could take days to fully comprehend.


    Unfortunately, in this world, speed is everything. You're competing for access to another person's mind. There's no way you'll ever be able to condense your argument to meet the processing power of the human mind, while at the same maintaining its factual suhstance. Your only viable soundbite is this: CP5 are niggers, and therefore probably guilty. For obvious reasons, most of humanity is going to shy away from your slogan, and go with the system's narrative.

    It's kind of like those hipsters who start up a craft cheeseburger joint. They buy a shoddy old building on the outskirts of town, and fix it up nicely. They spend hours chopping their own air-dried apple wood, so they can flame-broil those patties to hipster perfection. They make their ground beef by hand, using one of those old fashioned crank grinders they bought on eBay. They get a wooden crate of Emmental chesse shipped in from Switzerland. They spend hours cooking their grass fed beef by the side of the road, and nobody ever shows up to buy their cheeseburgers, because Burger King does all this shit effortlessly and actually has a store in town, and the hipsters quietly roll in to their own grills, carefully close the hood on themselves, and die screaming the lyrics to "Dancing Queen" by ABBA.

    There really is such a thing as a losing battle, and the far right seems to be spiritually compelled to continuously fight them, year after year, defeat after devastating defeat. I'm sorry, but no one is reading these complex critiques of the prevailing narratives, and in the meantime, you are losing precious time and energy by fixating on them. If you can't condense a message in to something that can be easily and instantly understood, it's time to find greener battlefields. The Left won time and time again on these "Tyrone Christ" cases. Please just accept that you can't beat them on this. And it doesn't even matter. Random little homicides and rapes don't matter. Even the Holocaust is being slowly forgotten.

    Replies: @Patrick McNally

  151. @Jack D
    @AnotherDad

    Being a cop is not something I would ever want to do, but for a blue collar white guy in deindustrialized America it's not a bad gig. In big cities the pensions are generous and kick in early or you can go out on disability and have a 2nd career.

    One of the reasons that these guys get paid fairly well (taking into account salary and benefits) and get to carry a gun is that they are expected to exercise a fairly high level of judgment - they literally have people's lives in their hands. If you are given this kind of power and you, in the judgment of the law, abuse it, you have to be prepared to take the consequences - it comes with the job, just like a bus driver has to be prepared to take the consequences if he drives his bus recklessly. I suppose if you don't want to take those kind of risks you could pursue some other profession where you don't have to interact with humans - then you can never cross the line.

    I'm not the one who has to judge Chauvin - the jury will do that. The old police axiom is that it's better to be judged by twelve than carried by six but in this case Chauvin's life was not on the line, which makes his actions even more inexplicable.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous, @anonymous

    I’m not the one who has to judge Chauvin – the jury will do that.

    If you were Officer Chauvin’s defense attorney, what case would you make to the jury?

    • Replies: @Inquiring Mind
    @anonymous

    Oh, but he is, and he very much has.

    Were he the defense attorney, he would pressure his client into a guilty plea.

    Replies: @Anon, @Jack D

    , @Jack D
    @anonymous

    All the arguments that people have been making here - that Floyd died of overdose, that kneeling on someone's neck is taught in the police academy and is totally safe, etc. But I'll bet you that the black jurors are not going to buy this line and maybe not the white ones either. I think that this case will be made or lost in jury selection and that so far his lawyer is losing.

    Replies: @houston 1992

  152. @anonymous
    @Jack D


    I’m not the one who has to judge Chauvin – the jury will do that.
     
    If you were Officer Chauvin’s defense attorney, what case would you make to the jury?

    Replies: @Inquiring Mind, @Jack D

    Oh, but he is, and he very much has.

    Were he the defense attorney, he would pressure his client into a guilty plea.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Inquiring Mind


    Were he the defense attorney, he would pressure his client into a guilty plea.
     
    Why?
    , @Jack D
    @Inquiring Mind

    BTW, Chauvin, presumably on advice of his counsel, was going to take a plea for 10 years last year but AG Barr refused to sign off on it (part of the deal had to be no Federal prosecution or there's no point).

    Why take a plea? Better to do 10 years than take a 50% risk of doing 40. It's all about expected value analysis. Yeah, his counsel can be full of bravado and say that he's gonna get him off for sure but in the end, if he rolls the dice, Chauvin is going to be doing the time, not his lawyer.

    Replies: @Anon

  153. @Patrick McNally
    @JohnPlywood

    I can't tell what part of your statement is sarcasm and what is not, so I'll just state the point: No one ever found any actual evidence to show that the Central Park 5 were innocent. What happened in that case was that a woman was gang-raped in the midst of a general run-around by 35 or so different black criminals who assaulted and robbed different people to varying degrees. The woman's rape drew special attention (rightly so) and the medical examination showed that she had clearly been raped by a gang, not by a single individual. The imprints from hands and the like showed that she had been handled by several people.

    Eventually the police settled on 5 suspects who they got to confess to the crime. But it was always clear that there had to have been at least 1 other culprit involved because the semen on the woman did not match with these thuggish punks. They had obviously been a part of the general criminal rampage which involved many more blacks rampaging around Central Park, but the evidence against them in terms of the specific rape charge was not corroborated by semen samples.

    Some years later it happened that another prisoner who was locked away on different charges suddenly popped a confession, His semen was tested and it was verified that he really had been the missing culprit. His confession, however, maintained that he had done this as a sole culprit with no else taking part in the crime. As it happened, this confirmed rapist had apparently had some contact with 1 of the Central Park 5 in a prison where they had been mutual acquaintances.

    This logically suggested that perhaps some parts of his confession might have been faked. He was clearly 1 of the rapists involved, because his semen matched, but was he really the only 1 there or did he have collaborators? The woman who had been victimized wanted a new trial which would have forced all of the original defendants to testify under oath in court with a penalty for perjury at hand.

    As it turned out, New York's Jewish elite was so eager to clear the accused black criminals (they definitely were criminals, regardless of whether they actually committed the rape at issue) that they were simply cleared without any trial. The story of the rapist having done it all by himself as a 1-man job then became the new kosher version of the Central Park Jogger story. Yet the original medical examinations made it clear that this was definitely not a 1-man job.

    For the sake of argument I'm willing to allow that theoretically there may be a small chance that the Central Park 5 were not the ones who committed the rape (despite their overall participation in the criminal rampage that provided the context for the rape). There actually were enough young aspiring black criminals running around Central Park there that it is theoretically possible that the police arrested the wrong culprits on the rape charges. But it is perfectly clear that any argument for their innocence which hinges on the 1-man job version is false.

    Replies: @Deep Anonymous, @JohnPlywood

    I’m almost certain that Nicholas Stix (a dissident Jew, BTW) has written extensively about this travesty of justice, as has Ann Coulter. Their articles probably are archived at VDare.

  154. @anonymous
    @Jack D


    I’m not the one who has to judge Chauvin – the jury will do that.
     
    If you were Officer Chauvin’s defense attorney, what case would you make to the jury?

    Replies: @Inquiring Mind, @Jack D

    All the arguments that people have been making here – that Floyd died of overdose, that kneeling on someone’s neck is taught in the police academy and is totally safe, etc. But I’ll bet you that the black jurors are not going to buy this line and maybe not the white ones either. I think that this case will be made or lost in jury selection and that so far his lawyer is losing.

    • Replies: @houston 1992
    @Jack D

    Jack:
    1) how do you rate defense attorneys Nelson's performance? to me, he has excellent persona, and may connect better with jury than the prosecution

    2) MN AG Keith Ellison seems to be an acting c0-chair, help, hurt, no difference?

    3) Can Defense challenge the 3rd degree murder charge reinstatement on appeal? any chance of success

    Replies: @Jack D

  155. @Jack D
    @anonymous

    All the arguments that people have been making here - that Floyd died of overdose, that kneeling on someone's neck is taught in the police academy and is totally safe, etc. But I'll bet you that the black jurors are not going to buy this line and maybe not the white ones either. I think that this case will be made or lost in jury selection and that so far his lawyer is losing.

    Replies: @houston 1992

    Jack:
    1) how do you rate defense attorneys Nelson’s performance? to me, he has excellent persona, and may connect better with jury than the prosecution

    2) MN AG Keith Ellison seems to be an acting c0-chair, help, hurt, no difference?

    3) Can Defense challenge the 3rd degree murder charge reinstatement on appeal? any chance of success

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @houston 1992

    I really have not followed the case closely enough to give an informed answer to your questions. From what I know of the jury selection I'm not super impressed by what Nelson is doing. He should be fighting like hell to keep people who are inclined toward the prosecution in this case (cough- blacks- cough) off the jury and he isn't.

  156. @Whiskey
    Slam dunk, Chauvin is convicted on all counts. He's White. He committed a crime of enforcing the law against a black man, and all black men are exempt and above the law. Just existing as a White man is a crime. So he's going to be convicted.

    Really, what did anyone expect out of Civil Rights? White men will either be on top or on bottom. There is no middle ground. There is no "lets all get along." There is no end to the war against White men until the last of us is dead. That's just the way it is.

    All that being said, there will be riots and riots and get Whitey street restorative justice "adjustment" from well, now to forever. It will never stop. Any black person has the perfect right by LAW and CUSTOM to do whatever they want to you, in the name of Civil Rights, and you have no right or defense to resist. After all, its your fault White men that vibrant young youths of color beat elderly Asian people, sometimes to death.

    If you are White, your existence is a crime against nature: Martin Luther King said so. So does Obama. If you are a White man, well you are the epitome of evil, and again Martin Luther King said so, and so did Obama. And Oprah. And Charlize Theron. And Captain Marvel. And Princess Megan. And President Harris.

    As Machiavelli said, it is better to be feared than loved.

    Replies: @Jim Christian, @kpkinsunnyphiladelphia, @TomSchmidt

    From Niccolo hissef:
    “If you cannot be both loved and feared, then it is better to be feared than loved.” there follows a series of elaborations. Use the full quotation, please.

    Relevant to Chauvin: “No prince should mind being called cruel for keeping his subjects peaceful and loyal. Punishing a few, and thus averting disorder, is better than allowing troubles to develop that will hurt many. ”

    This one is extremely relevant to Andrew Cuomo:
    “A prince must be careful not to make himself hated, even though he is feared; to do this, he must keep his hands off his subjects’ property and their women. ”

    “In conclusion, people love at their own wish, but fear at the prince’s will, so a wise ruler will rely on what he can best control.”
    Note: it would take 500 years for Robert Cialdini to write the book Influence, the Psychology of Persuasion, showing how people do not “love at their own wish,” but are often seduced by the ministrations of sociopaths like the Prince.

    • Replies: @obwandiyag
    @TomSchmidt

    And he shouldn't murder their grandmothers either.

  157. @Chrisnonymous
    @Jack D

    I think your perspective is too dependent on assuming you know what was going on in Chauvin's head. I too happen to think it's likely that he acted out of a sense of not wanting the hecklers to be in control of his actions-- a kind of pride, perhaps, but it's confused because as a cop you wouldn't want a crowd to be dictating your actions. Part of your job, de facto if not de jure, is keeping control of scenes you are at--and indeed, we see Chauvin reach for pepper spray at one point as he is interacting with the crowd. I think Chauvin's mind likely was split between focusing on Floyd, whom he was waiting for EMTs to take care of, and focusing on the crowd. However, I don't know that's the case, and it's possible that Chauvin's thought process was more like "this guy is ODing but I don't have the resources (i.e., Narcan) to deal with that, so I've got to keep him calm until the EMTs get here". In that case, the fact that the ambulance got lost and arrived later than Chauvin expected would a major confounder for Chauvin--at every moment, Chauvin's decision was between moving Floyd and risking losing control of the situation if Floyd was faking or got agitated again and waiting just a few seconds more for the ambulance. When you consider how our sense of time passing is affected by circumstances, I think it is hard to say for sure that my perception of Chauvin's "pride" is accurate. Is he guilty of something? Hard to say. In a courtroom, I wouldn't like to vote to convict on specific charges carefully nuanced in law based on my feeling, possibly wrong, that he did something.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Anon

    Maybe Chauvin sensed that Minneapolis blacks were getting inclined to riot?

  158. Anon[203] • Disclaimer says:
    @Chrisnonymous
    @Jack D

    I think your perspective is too dependent on assuming you know what was going on in Chauvin's head. I too happen to think it's likely that he acted out of a sense of not wanting the hecklers to be in control of his actions-- a kind of pride, perhaps, but it's confused because as a cop you wouldn't want a crowd to be dictating your actions. Part of your job, de facto if not de jure, is keeping control of scenes you are at--and indeed, we see Chauvin reach for pepper spray at one point as he is interacting with the crowd. I think Chauvin's mind likely was split between focusing on Floyd, whom he was waiting for EMTs to take care of, and focusing on the crowd. However, I don't know that's the case, and it's possible that Chauvin's thought process was more like "this guy is ODing but I don't have the resources (i.e., Narcan) to deal with that, so I've got to keep him calm until the EMTs get here". In that case, the fact that the ambulance got lost and arrived later than Chauvin expected would a major confounder for Chauvin--at every moment, Chauvin's decision was between moving Floyd and risking losing control of the situation if Floyd was faking or got agitated again and waiting just a few seconds more for the ambulance. When you consider how our sense of time passing is affected by circumstances, I think it is hard to say for sure that my perception of Chauvin's "pride" is accurate. Is he guilty of something? Hard to say. In a courtroom, I wouldn't like to vote to convict on specific charges carefully nuanced in law based on my feeling, possibly wrong, that he did something.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Anon

    In that case, the fact that the ambulance got lost and arrived later than Chauvin expected would a major confounder for Chauvin–at every moment, Chauvin’s decision was between moving Floyd and risking losing control of the situation if Floyd was faking or got agitated again and waiting just a few seconds more for the ambulance. When you consider how our sense of time passing is affected by circumstances, I think it is hard to say for sure that my perception of Chauvin’s “pride” is accurate.

    Great post. The entire thing, not just the part excerpted.

  159. @Inquiring Mind
    @anonymous

    Oh, but he is, and he very much has.

    Were he the defense attorney, he would pressure his client into a guilty plea.

    Replies: @Anon, @Jack D

    Were he the defense attorney, he would pressure his client into a guilty plea.

    Why?

  160. @Paperback Writer
    @JohnPlywood


    I hardly ever hear any of these names in the lamestream media.

     

    I don't have a Nexis account anymore and my name ain't Zach Goldberg, but I can tell you that those names have been literally consecrated and baked into the grievance cake.

    I have actually heard people say that "Trayvon was killed by the police." When I say that he died in a fistfight with a neighbor, which is the most neutral way of describing it, I get stares of blank incomprehension and then a quick 180. The guy who killed him is white, so that's the same thing.

    Replies: @Pat Kittle

    “Trayvon was killed by the police.” When I say that he died in a fistfight with a neighbor…

    That implies that they both squared off in a fight they both entered voluntarily.

    In fact Trayvon (Patron Saint of the woke) died after ambushing his neighbor (George Zimmerman), after telling his girlfriend on the phone that he was get that “faggot” (or some similar anti-homosexual slur). Zimmerman only used lethal force when his head was being lethally pummeled into the pavement.

    As usual the awful truth has been thoroughly buried by (((pathologically anti-White media hucksters))).

  161. @Inquiring Mind
    @anonymous

    Oh, but he is, and he very much has.

    Were he the defense attorney, he would pressure his client into a guilty plea.

    Replies: @Anon, @Jack D

    BTW, Chauvin, presumably on advice of his counsel, was going to take a plea for 10 years last year but AG Barr refused to sign off on it (part of the deal had to be no Federal prosecution or there’s no point).

    Why take a plea? Better to do 10 years than take a 50% risk of doing 40. It’s all about expected value analysis. Yeah, his counsel can be full of bravado and say that he’s gonna get him off for sure but in the end, if he rolls the dice, Chauvin is going to be doing the time, not his lawyer.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Jack D


    BTW, Chauvin, presumably on advice of his counsel, was going to take a plea for 10 years last year but AG Barr refused to sign off on it (part of the deal had to be no Federal prosecution or there’s no point).
     
    Citation needed.
  162. @AnotherDad
    @Jack D


    BTW, the evidence of overdose is very marginal.
     
    Except Floyd is ... dead.
    And
    -- he sat in his car doing nothing to leave the scene after passing his fake bill
    -- he did a big freak out when the cops tried to put him in the car
    -- he was doing his "i can't breathe" shtick before the cops were kneeling on him
    -- the first--non-political--autopsy showed no sign of trauma to windpipe nor forced asphyxiation but rather that Floyd died of a heart attack, with a bunch of fentanyl, meth, signs of heart disease and covid-19 (probably PCRing up previous month's infection)

    So yeah, other than the actual evidence of Floyd's behavior and his autopsy the overdose theory is marginal.

    Replies: @Mike Tre

    “he sat in his car doing nothing to leave the scene after passing his fake bill”

    Pretty sure he was trying to deal the fentanyl and swallowed his stash when the police rolled up on him. (the two individuals briefly questioned early in the bodycam footage supports that; they were likely potential customers)

  163. @houston 1992
    @Jack D

    Jack:
    1) how do you rate defense attorneys Nelson's performance? to me, he has excellent persona, and may connect better with jury than the prosecution

    2) MN AG Keith Ellison seems to be an acting c0-chair, help, hurt, no difference?

    3) Can Defense challenge the 3rd degree murder charge reinstatement on appeal? any chance of success

    Replies: @Jack D

    I really have not followed the case closely enough to give an informed answer to your questions. From what I know of the jury selection I’m not super impressed by what Nelson is doing. He should be fighting like hell to keep people who are inclined toward the prosecution in this case (cough- blacks- cough) off the jury and he isn’t.

  164. @AnotherDad
    @Jack D

    Few of points:

    -- As i've noted before one the of key points of pointing out any sort of "separation" options is that it clear shows whom is looting who.

    If i'm willing to bug off and leave you alone ... i'm not the problem. It's the people who demand contact with other people, demand other people do something for them who are the dependents and parasites. (My parents drafted a "policy on parental support past the age of 18" for me at 16 or so to make this point.)


    -- As Art Deco notes, South Africa most certainly did not do this. That's actually the tragedy for whites there. The rich whites there simply would not give up black labor, and retreat to a white homeland to live as white people. They could have and should have done this. But they didn't because of ... the siren call of cheap labor. Confederacy--however sympathetic i am to their legal argument--same deal. If you want to live and survive as a people you can't keep around a slave race, serf race, cheap labor race. America's elites have been heeding siren call of cheap labor the past few decades--intentionally to destroy the nation in our case--and we are getting the predictably bad results.


    -- Unscrambling is often considerably less terrible than the alternatives. The post-War unscrambling of Germans wasn't pleasant. One can say all sorts of things about it. (Lots of nasty stuff usually happens once tribes start fighting and killing each other.) But it's notable that Europe was pretty darn peaceful for a lot of decades after the War. Some of that is nukes, some the US Army. But a big portion was good clear borders.

    The trouble spots were places like Northern Ireland, which hadn't been unscrambled--and should simply have been further repartitioned with "movement of populations" instead of tedious dragging on through "the Troubles". Or the Basques unhappy in Spain. And when the European peace came apart it was precisely where people had not been unscrambled--the Balkans.

    Actually more unscrambling--Lebanon, Israel, the Kurds, Tibet, lots of places in Africa ... would be goodness.

    Unfortunately the unscrambling is Europe is being reversed by evil elites--as it is in America.


    -- Organic unscrambling in the US would actually be quite helpful.

    My rough take is if we could simply stop immigration, pretty much all the ethnic division would resolve in 100 years or so. It wouldn't be as good as 1960, before the rise of minoritarianism. But in a few generations we'd return to some sort of dominant "whiteish" generic American population with just the remaining legacy of slavery divide.

    But if we aren't getting that, at least just stop forcing association and conflict. Let people organically sort and organize into the communities they want. It doesn't bug me if the XYZ are doing their thing over there. Let everyone do it.

    But our hate filled elites just refuse even an once of good sense or decency. Pedal to the metal on immigration and jamming people in each others' faces. (You must have some Somali primitive rubbing in your face ... and love it!)


    -- The actual separation needed in the US is between minoritarians (of whatever ethnic group) and Americans (of whatever ethnic group). I.e. it's political.

    Some people are happy with traditional America--limited republican federal government, rooted in the people and culture of Western Christian civilization, with our own history, heroes, mores, norms ... culture. And some--the "diversity is our greatest strength", "immigration is who we are"--the Rainbow people, aren't.

    The split is for everyone to pick a side. No one has to pack up. But we chose sides and start building out own separate communities with our separate norms ... and get out of each other's way.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous, @Jack D

    It’s a lengthy essay, but I really don’t understand AD’s Plan of Separation. Are you saying that you intend this only as a rhetorical device to point out the hypocrisy of the minoritarians or do you desire that this plan actually be implemented? If so, how would it work?

  165. @vhrm
    @Art Deco

    The medical/forensic comments i've seen point out that the fatal level for a given individual varies a LOT depending on their usage history and they're equivocal on whether that was a fatal dose for Floyd.

    If you have something solid that says otherwise i'd be glad to see it.

    For the 15+ minutes of interaction before he died he seemed relatively stable in his intoxicated state which is (afaik) not consistent with ODing on a fast acting opioid like fentanyl. For a snorted fentanyl w/o cocaine or something to offset it he should've been passing out within minutes.

    If they'd found some fentanyl in his stomach that suggested he'd just taken some that way and thus his blood level was still rising... then that would be more suggestive, but afaik they didn't.

    Not an expert and not saying that the fentanyl wasn't a big part of the story and possibly the majority of the story via reduced lung capacity / function, induced paranoia, etc., but the "he took too much fen and would have died anyway" is not very convincing given the available evidence.

    Replies: @anon, @Jack D, @Art Deco, @Chrisnonymous, @Negrolphin Pool

    St. Fentanyl’s cardiac state was dire. His heart weighed nearly twice normal, and the autopsy report stated that he had both ventricular dilatation and high grade coronary artery occlusions.

    Ingesting sub-lethal drug coctails could have killed him as could have stumbling to his getaway van.

    It is more likely than not that the police encounter was the proximate cause of his death. But Chauvin did nothing more than crunch a very costly mayfly under his knee.

  166. MB says: • Website

    While it was a sad end for Mr. Floyd, somebody got to ask where is Richard Pryor when the nation needs him?

    ‘S*** are you kiddin’ me? N***** had almost four times the lethal amount of fentanyl in him, if the cops had shot that n***** and the n***** bled out, they would have ODed from the fumes.’

    End of story.
    But not in woke Amerika.
    Land of the free and home of the bigots.
    But don’t worry.
    Big China Joe is gonna fix it.
    Soon. Very soon.

  167. @JohnPlywood
    @vhrm

    The bigger picture regarding false prosecutions is not Derek Chauvin's case, but the obscenely high rate of exoneration among inner black males.


    Despite making up about 12% of the US population, blacks are 62% of DNA exonerees.


    https://sites.law.duke.edu/forensicsforum/2020/06/05/race-and-dna-exonerations/

    https://sites.law.duke.edu/forensicsforum/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/2020/06/Screen-Shot-2020-06-05-at-2.24.59-PM.png


    Among DNA exonerations a stunning 80 percent were racial minorities. Most striking, 75% of the exonerees who were convicted of rape were black or Latino, while studies indicate that only approximately 30% to 40% of all rape convicts are minorities.
     
    You can help make the world a better place, by donating your income to black and Hispanic inmates. After all, if Blackstone's ratio is true, you'd be every bit in the wrong as Chauvin's prosecutors, by focusing on Derek Chauvin rather than the much larger pool of wrongful convictions among black and Hispanic males. Better for 1 cop to go down than for 10 innocent Black men to be jailed. And keeping Chauvin out of uniform reduces his chances of arresting an innocent person.


    Take heart, freedom fighters of Unz. We're going to all liberfied up in this bitch.

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @Chrisnonymous, @Negrolphin Pool, @Keypusher, @Patrick McNally

    A couple counterstats,

    1) 1350.

    2) 2%er money laundering charity might not be heavily focused on exonerating its nemesis.

    3) 33% of blacks are convicted felons. Given inner-city policing constraints, this usually entails an iceberg-tip rap sheet that reads like a lurid crime novel.

    4) Since the 1950s Warren Court, procedural justice has meant that shooters walk on technicalities. While you bang on your Greater Good drum, their careless bullets take lives.

  168. One thing to note is that every single toxicological positive in the man’s body relates to a drug that increases dopamine. This agrees with the dopamine hypothesis of depression, and opens the possibility of reducing the use of dangerous or toxic drugs with a dopamine increasing antidepressant with a better safety profile. A corollary is that drug use might be reduced by reducing environmental stressors.

  169. A second thing to note from the blog is that the author is not right when writing about fentanyl. He writes that respiratory depression is the cause. This cannot be the case as Floyd was still conscious, and was aware of his difficulty breathing. Mechanically his lungs and breath rate would have been fine. What is probable is that fentanyl caused severe hypotension that his lungs lost the ability to exchange gases: pulmonary oedema.

  170. @Patrick McNally
    @JohnPlywood

    I can't tell what part of your statement is sarcasm and what is not, so I'll just state the point: No one ever found any actual evidence to show that the Central Park 5 were innocent. What happened in that case was that a woman was gang-raped in the midst of a general run-around by 35 or so different black criminals who assaulted and robbed different people to varying degrees. The woman's rape drew special attention (rightly so) and the medical examination showed that she had clearly been raped by a gang, not by a single individual. The imprints from hands and the like showed that she had been handled by several people.

    Eventually the police settled on 5 suspects who they got to confess to the crime. But it was always clear that there had to have been at least 1 other culprit involved because the semen on the woman did not match with these thuggish punks. They had obviously been a part of the general criminal rampage which involved many more blacks rampaging around Central Park, but the evidence against them in terms of the specific rape charge was not corroborated by semen samples.

    Some years later it happened that another prisoner who was locked away on different charges suddenly popped a confession, His semen was tested and it was verified that he really had been the missing culprit. His confession, however, maintained that he had done this as a sole culprit with no else taking part in the crime. As it happened, this confirmed rapist had apparently had some contact with 1 of the Central Park 5 in a prison where they had been mutual acquaintances.

    This logically suggested that perhaps some parts of his confession might have been faked. He was clearly 1 of the rapists involved, because his semen matched, but was he really the only 1 there or did he have collaborators? The woman who had been victimized wanted a new trial which would have forced all of the original defendants to testify under oath in court with a penalty for perjury at hand.

    As it turned out, New York's Jewish elite was so eager to clear the accused black criminals (they definitely were criminals, regardless of whether they actually committed the rape at issue) that they were simply cleared without any trial. The story of the rapist having done it all by himself as a 1-man job then became the new kosher version of the Central Park Jogger story. Yet the original medical examinations made it clear that this was definitely not a 1-man job.

    For the sake of argument I'm willing to allow that theoretically there may be a small chance that the Central Park 5 were not the ones who committed the rape (despite their overall participation in the criminal rampage that provided the context for the rape). There actually were enough young aspiring black criminals running around Central Park there that it is theoretically possible that the police arrested the wrong culprits on the rape charges. But it is perfectly clear that any argument for their innocence which hinges on the 1-man job version is false.

    Replies: @Deep Anonymous, @JohnPlywood

    That’s all very fascinating. Thanks for taking the time to write all of this. However, the public isn’t aware of this, and they wouldn’t be able to digest it all — even if it could be condensed in to a TV documentary or something.

    From the public’s point of view, CP5 were exonerated, and victims of racism. A judge said it, their lawyers said it, the media said it. That’s all that matters. Even if you had equal footing with the media to make your case, the public would still buy the media’s narrative, for no other reason than it is simpler and more easily digested than your complex analysis. Most people have an attention span of 5-15 seconds, and your post requires a good solid understanding of a complex gang rape, which could take days to fully comprehend.

    Unfortunately, in this world, speed is everything. You’re competing for access to another person’s mind. There’s no way you’ll ever be able to condense your argument to meet the processing power of the human mind, while at the same maintaining its factual suhstance. Your only viable soundbite is this: CP5 are niggers, and therefore probably guilty. For obvious reasons, most of humanity is going to shy away from your slogan, and go with the system’s narrative.

    It’s kind of like those hipsters who start up a craft cheeseburger joint. They buy a shoddy old building on the outskirts of town, and fix it up nicely. They spend hours chopping their own air-dried apple wood, so they can flame-broil those patties to hipster perfection. They make their ground beef by hand, using one of those old fashioned crank grinders they bought on eBay. They get a wooden crate of Emmental chesse shipped in from Switzerland. They spend hours cooking their grass fed beef by the side of the road, and nobody ever shows up to buy their cheeseburgers, because Burger King does all this shit effortlessly and actually has a store in town, and the hipsters quietly roll in to their own grills, carefully close the hood on themselves, and die screaming the lyrics to “Dancing Queen” by ABBA.

    There really is such a thing as a losing battle, and the far right seems to be spiritually compelled to continuously fight them, year after year, defeat after devastating defeat. I’m sorry, but no one is reading these complex critiques of the prevailing narratives, and in the meantime, you are losing precious time and energy by fixating on them. If you can’t condense a message in to something that can be easily and instantly understood, it’s time to find greener battlefields. The Left won time and time again on these “Tyrone Christ” cases. Please just accept that you can’t beat them on this. And it doesn’t even matter. Random little homicides and rapes don’t matter. Even the Holocaust is being slowly forgotten.

    • Replies: @Patrick McNally
    @JohnPlywood

    Lots of claptrap has been ground out and chewed down by people who spend their time around the Democratic Party. George Soros funds pseudo-intellectuals like Michelle Alexander who grind out crappy books like The New Jim Crow which postures as an academic treatise. People will gleefully spend their time combing through facts and factoids about the Bush family. Nothing which I wrote above is lengthy compared to that.

    The fact is that if 5 white boys were acquitted of charges of raping a black woman, and if the grounds for their acquittal were as flimsy as those for the Central Park 5, then all of the facts which I recited above would be blared out loud everywhere. Michael Moore would start getting a professional training in medical examinations so that he could recite in specialized lingo how we know that this was not a 1-man job. Give some credit where it's due. Such people actually are capable of reading a much more lengthy treatise than the string of paragraphs which I put together. Inability to read anything at length is not the problem.

  171. See the video and say this for Chauvin. He looked the world steadily in the eye. Interpret that.

  172. @Art Deco
    @Guy De Champlagne

    Common sense says that since Chauvin had nothing else to do but restrain Floyd and had two other cops with him he should have worked with Floyd to find him a more comfortable position.

    He was on the ground because he proved uncontrollable in the car.

    Replies: @Guy De Champlagne

    But the situation changed and Floyd started losing consciousness. There’s no reasonable expectation that Chauvin be aware of that and modify his behavior?

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Guy De Champlagne

    Wouldn't have made any difference. Chauvin had neither the training nor the equipment to address Floyd's condition. Not sure the EMTs did either.

  173. @anon
    @Sean

    Just because something is deemed lawful by the district attorney (as Chauvin’s actions originally were) doesn’t mean it’s appropriate and in line with what police training is to do in that situation.

    Chavin's actions were in keeping with the MPD policy as of last year. Multiple people have already gone over this with you: you are wrong.

    The jury selection is ongoing. In time the trial will come to a conclusion. Are you planning to take your opinion to the George Floyd Autonomous Zone in Minnie, or just whine endlessly in comments?

    Replies: @Sean

    Even if Chauvin’s actions were in keeping with the MPD policy as of last year, or what MPD policy currently is and always has been, and even in the case that he was executing commands from the Chief Of Police who was standing there beside Chauvin and Floyd, it would not be a defence in a court of law. A police officer can’t use any variety of ‘only obeying orders’ as an excuse, they are in the same position as any other mentally competent adult, inasmuch they are held to have the sole and undivided responsibility for their actions.

    • Replies: @anon
    @Sean

    Even if Chauvin’s actions were in keeping with the MPD policy as of last year, or what MPD policy currently is and always has been, and even in the case that he was executing commands from the Chief Of Police who was standing there beside Chauvin and Floyd, it would not be a defence in a court of law.

    Are you a lawyer? If so, in what state are you licensed to practice?

    It has become obvious that you evaluate this entire incident on the basis of your emotions, with little to no logic engaged. Why that is the case I cannot say, it's your head that you are living in. But the degree of obvious hate you have for Chauvin should be something of concern to you.

    Again I ask, are you planning to take your opinion to the George Floyd Autonomous Zone in Minnie, or just whine endlessly in comments?

  174. @TWS
    @JohnPlywood

    Nobody. Not one person who reads this blog believes you are a man of the right.

    I am certain that you are likely not a man at all. Oh, I have little doubt you walk on two legs, but I have seen trained dogs and bears even horses do as much. I'm certain you can speak or at least use a key board. Again, I've witnessed birds who could mimic the sounds of any creature you can name.

    Manhood requires character, a spine and soul. You are as spineless as tofu and as for your soul you cannot possess what you have discarded or sold.

    Replies: @JohnPlywood

    You’re right, I’m not a man of the right. I despise the right wing, because it can’t do anything right. The right wing is a Faustian punching bag for everyone to pummel for the sake of sheer sadistic joy. Your entire existence consists of speaking out, getting beaten down by any opponent, only to cower back in to the darkness to formulate a new meme to bleat on the internet. It’s like a sick game of Whack-a-Mole… and you’re the moles.

    There’s a way out, but it’s going to involve you getting on your knees and moving that spine for me. I’m the only one who can save the loony right from themselves, and it requires your complete devotion.

    • Troll: Inquiring Mind
    • Replies: @Boomthorkell
    @JohnPlywood

    Go on.

  175. @anon
    @Jiminy


    Just blame the Israelis for pushing the knee to the neck procedure.
     
    Do you have a citation?

    Replies: @Jiminy

    Last year there were several articles on ur detailing how police are sent on junkets to Israel, funded often by Jewish lobby groups. It’s either there or back in the US that the cops are taught the restraint positions that the Israelis use on the arabs on a regular basis. The ever popular knee to the head is one of them. If the Israelis are making use of it, then it obviously can’t be dangerous.

  176. I know I’m coming late to the party, but.

    –Floyd broke the law and then sat around stoned out of his mind in the parking lot in his car. He was a clear danger if he had started driving his car.

    –Floyd in his initial encounters with the police dropped some drugs on the street that he was obviously selling.

    –Floyd ingested a buttload (no pun intended) of fentanyl, most likely to conceal from the cops his stash. This is similar to that young rapper who did the same when the cops entered his private jet as it landed–and then died from an OD. Look him up.

    –Floyd actively resisted arrest using a technique that many blacks have come to use–talking incessantly a mile a minute, gyrating to prevent being put in the back seat. You can see similar in the video of the neighborhood jogger/burglar Aurbry (sic) in his previous encounter with the law when he parked his car on the grass in the middle of a city park and was confronted by police–he rattled on incessantly and then finally took off running leaving his car in the middle of the park. Also very common is to say I can’t breathe….while breathing deeply. The bottom line is that when the cops have decided to detain someone and the detainee resists, they are trained to not let the person go. He is being detained because the police believe he is a danger to the community and his actions must be “arrested” (i.e., stopped). This means it is their duty to keep the person detained and under custody. This is what they were doing there.

    –Floyd was foaming at the mouth. He would not be put into a police car. The police then realized he was having some type of medical issue and called for an ambulance. The autopsy shows clearly, unequivocally Floyd overdosing on fentanyl at this time, a symptom of which is slowed breathing. Floyd was also panicking, realizing the large amount of fentanyl he had ingested was too much for his body. He continued to vigorously resist.

    –Chauvin applied a standard police technique taught in police departments all over the United States, written in their manuals, demonstrated in police training films, in order to keep a resisting ex-felon under detention while the officers waited for the ambulance to arrive. Floyd’s windpipe was not cut off (as autopsy showed). The technique taught all Minneapolis police does not damage the neck in any way.

    –The ambulance followed their GPS, which led them to a wrong location. This delayed their arrival by 15 minutes.

    –At some point during that wait, Floyd’s sick, diseased heart succumbed to the massive fentanyl overdose Floyd had voluntarily ingested. He most likely would have died on the ambulance ride or later at the hospital. That he died of an overdosed on the street was pure coincidence, having nothing to do with Chauvin or any of the other officers.

    Nothing else matters in this case, except the facts stated above. The prosecutors should be criminally charged for withholding the body cam footage of the first encounter with Floyd that would have changed the public perception. They did it on purpose with criminal intent. The prosecutors and DA and AG should be removed from this case with prejudice and all charges on all police officers dropped with prejudice.

    This is what should go down if there is justice in America. No jury of any conscience could possibly vote to convict Chauvin on any of the puffed up charges.

    We will see clearly where people involved in this trial stand. Time will tell.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @restless94110

    No jury of any conscience could possibly vote to convict Chauvin on any of the puffed up charges.

    You're forgetting that north of 40% of the population consists of people of unjust disposition from the get go, driven by pride, emotion, and status considerations. This was not true 30 years ago.

    Replies: @Anon

    , @Chrisnonymous
    @restless94110

    A major problem for us armchair investigators is that we don't have video of Floyd's torso and lower body during the entire 9 minutes. So, we can't see where Chauvin's other knee was or whether the other officers were putting weight on him.

    The knee-on-neck cause of death claim is obviously wrong, and the narrative moved on from that within days of the original incident. The three possible ways in which Chauvin can be claimed to have killed Floyd are:

    1- By putting undo weight on his torso that prevented him from being able to inhale adequately.
    2- By keeping Floyd in a position that prevented him from being able to breath adequately.
    3- By failing to provide basic medical care, like CPR, once Floyd became unresponsive.

    We simply can't see any evidence for 1. If the other officers' body cams were on the whole time, however, there will be evidence for or against. My guess is that once we see any other body cam footage, it will turn out they were not putting any significant weight on his torso, just as it's obvious from the footage we have that there was not any significant weight on his neck.

    A lot of people want 2 to be true, but the research into positional asphyxia suggests it is an issue wit obese people, which Floyd was clearly not, so it would be a difficult charge to make stick in a courtroom I suspect.

    I'm pretty sure the trial will focus on 3. While the history you mention of the incident and Floyd's behavior is probably relevant to whether Floyd actually sealed his own fate (by framing the situation for Chauvin and Tao as a resisting arrest emergency rather than a medical emergency), it will not be relevant in the courtroom.

    With regard to 3, the only relevant question will be whether they can show that Floyd's medical condition was beyond Chauvin's ability to deal with, and about that I don't know. As far as I know, opioids can't suppress breathing in a way that someone stays awake and starts struggling for breath. It suppresses breathing in such a way that people stop breathing after losing consciousness. Floyd's claims that he couldn't breathe seem to suggest that traditional OD is not the cause of Floyd's death. This is why the medical examiner said if Floyd had been found dead, he would have been ruled an OD rather actually ruling the death was an OD--the video evidence seems inconsistent with that.

    We'll have to see what the defense can say about evidence (i.e., medical research) that Floyd's condition was irreversibly leading him to death regardless of Chauvin's actions.

    Replies: @vhrm, @restless94110, @Art Deco

  177. @Guy De Champlagne
    @Art Deco

    But the situation changed and Floyd started losing consciousness. There's no reasonable expectation that Chauvin be aware of that and modify his behavior?

    Replies: @Art Deco

    Wouldn’t have made any difference. Chauvin had neither the training nor the equipment to address Floyd’s condition. Not sure the EMTs did either.

  178. anon[376] • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean
    @anon

    Even if Chauvin’s actions were in keeping with the MPD policy as of last year, or what MPD policy currently is and always has been, and even in the case that he was executing commands from the Chief Of Police who was standing there beside Chauvin and Floyd, it would not be a defence in a court of law. A police officer can't use any variety of 'only obeying orders' as an excuse, they are in the same position as any other mentally competent adult, inasmuch they are held to have the sole and undivided responsibility for their actions.

    Replies: @anon

    Even if Chauvin’s actions were in keeping with the MPD policy as of last year, or what MPD policy currently is and always has been, and even in the case that he was executing commands from the Chief Of Police who was standing there beside Chauvin and Floyd, it would not be a defence in a court of law.

    Are you a lawyer? If so, in what state are you licensed to practice?

    It has become obvious that you evaluate this entire incident on the basis of your emotions, with little to no logic engaged. Why that is the case I cannot say, it’s your head that you are living in. But the degree of obvious hate you have for Chauvin should be something of concern to you.

    Again I ask, are you planning to take your opinion to the George Floyd Autonomous Zone in Minnie, or just whine endlessly in comments?

  179. @restless94110
    I know I'm coming late to the party, but.

    --Floyd broke the law and then sat around stoned out of his mind in the parking lot in his car. He was a clear danger if he had started driving his car.

    --Floyd in his initial encounters with the police dropped some drugs on the street that he was obviously selling.

    --Floyd ingested a buttload (no pun intended) of fentanyl, most likely to conceal from the cops his stash. This is similar to that young rapper who did the same when the cops entered his private jet as it landed--and then died from an OD. Look him up.

    --Floyd actively resisted arrest using a technique that many blacks have come to use--talking incessantly a mile a minute, gyrating to prevent being put in the back seat. You can see similar in the video of the neighborhood jogger/burglar Aurbry (sic) in his previous encounter with the law when he parked his car on the grass in the middle of a city park and was confronted by police--he rattled on incessantly and then finally took off running leaving his car in the middle of the park. Also very common is to say I can't breathe....while breathing deeply. The bottom line is that when the cops have decided to detain someone and the detainee resists, they are trained to not let the person go. He is being detained because the police believe he is a danger to the community and his actions must be "arrested" (i.e., stopped). This means it is their duty to keep the person detained and under custody. This is what they were doing there.

    --Floyd was foaming at the mouth. He would not be put into a police car. The police then realized he was having some type of medical issue and called for an ambulance. The autopsy shows clearly, unequivocally Floyd overdosing on fentanyl at this time, a symptom of which is slowed breathing. Floyd was also panicking, realizing the large amount of fentanyl he had ingested was too much for his body. He continued to vigorously resist.

    --Chauvin applied a standard police technique taught in police departments all over the United States, written in their manuals, demonstrated in police training films, in order to keep a resisting ex-felon under detention while the officers waited for the ambulance to arrive. Floyd's windpipe was not cut off (as autopsy showed). The technique taught all Minneapolis police does not damage the neck in any way.

    --The ambulance followed their GPS, which led them to a wrong location. This delayed their arrival by 15 minutes.

    --At some point during that wait, Floyd's sick, diseased heart succumbed to the massive fentanyl overdose Floyd had voluntarily ingested. He most likely would have died on the ambulance ride or later at the hospital. That he died of an overdosed on the street was pure coincidence, having nothing to do with Chauvin or any of the other officers.

    Nothing else matters in this case, except the facts stated above. The prosecutors should be criminally charged for withholding the body cam footage of the first encounter with Floyd that would have changed the public perception. They did it on purpose with criminal intent. The prosecutors and DA and AG should be removed from this case with prejudice and all charges on all police officers dropped with prejudice.

    This is what should go down if there is justice in America. No jury of any conscience could possibly vote to convict Chauvin on any of the puffed up charges.

    We will see clearly where people involved in this trial stand. Time will tell.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @Chrisnonymous

    No jury of any conscience could possibly vote to convict Chauvin on any of the puffed up charges.

    You’re forgetting that north of 40% of the population consists of people of unjust disposition from the get go, driven by pride, emotion, and status considerations. This was not true 30 years ago.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Art Deco



    No jury of any conscience could possibly vote to convict Chauvin on any of the puffed up charges.
     
    You’re forgetting that north of 40% of the population consists of people of unjust disposition from the get go, driven by pride, emotion, and status considerations. This was not true 30 years ago.
     
    How did you arrive at the 40%, and how do you conclude it has changed from 30 years ago? What was it 30 years ago?
  180. Not forgetting a thing.

    I said….

    No jury of any conscience

    You’re describing the opposite.

  181. @Jack D
    @Inquiring Mind

    BTW, Chauvin, presumably on advice of his counsel, was going to take a plea for 10 years last year but AG Barr refused to sign off on it (part of the deal had to be no Federal prosecution or there's no point).

    Why take a plea? Better to do 10 years than take a 50% risk of doing 40. It's all about expected value analysis. Yeah, his counsel can be full of bravado and say that he's gonna get him off for sure but in the end, if he rolls the dice, Chauvin is going to be doing the time, not his lawyer.

    Replies: @Anon

    BTW, Chauvin, presumably on advice of his counsel, was going to take a plea for 10 years last year but AG Barr refused to sign off on it (part of the deal had to be no Federal prosecution or there’s no point).

    Citation needed.

  182. Anon[360] • Disclaimer says:
    @Art Deco
    @restless94110

    No jury of any conscience could possibly vote to convict Chauvin on any of the puffed up charges.

    You're forgetting that north of 40% of the population consists of people of unjust disposition from the get go, driven by pride, emotion, and status considerations. This was not true 30 years ago.

    Replies: @Anon

    No jury of any conscience could possibly vote to convict Chauvin on any of the puffed up charges.

    You’re forgetting that north of 40% of the population consists of people of unjust disposition from the get go, driven by pride, emotion, and status considerations. This was not true 30 years ago.

    How did you arrive at the 40%, and how do you conclude it has changed from 30 years ago? What was it 30 years ago?

  183. • Replies: @Art Deco
    @MEH 0910

    Principal-agent problems. The corporation counsel in Minneapolis is a swine.

  184. @MEH 0910
    https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1370451955957530630

    Replies: @Art Deco

    Principal-agent problems. The corporation counsel in Minneapolis is a swine.

  185. @JohnPlywood
    @Patrick McNally

    That's all very fascinating. Thanks for taking the time to write all of this. However, the public isn't aware of this, and they wouldn't be able to digest it all -- even if it could be condensed in to a TV documentary or something.

    From the public's point of view, CP5 were exonerated, and victims of racism. A judge said it, their lawyers said it, the media said it. That's all that matters. Even if you had equal footing with the media to make your case, the public would still buy the media's narrative, for no other reason than it is simpler and more easily digested than your complex analysis. Most people have an attention span of 5-15 seconds, and your post requires a good solid understanding of a complex gang rape, which could take days to fully comprehend.


    Unfortunately, in this world, speed is everything. You're competing for access to another person's mind. There's no way you'll ever be able to condense your argument to meet the processing power of the human mind, while at the same maintaining its factual suhstance. Your only viable soundbite is this: CP5 are niggers, and therefore probably guilty. For obvious reasons, most of humanity is going to shy away from your slogan, and go with the system's narrative.

    It's kind of like those hipsters who start up a craft cheeseburger joint. They buy a shoddy old building on the outskirts of town, and fix it up nicely. They spend hours chopping their own air-dried apple wood, so they can flame-broil those patties to hipster perfection. They make their ground beef by hand, using one of those old fashioned crank grinders they bought on eBay. They get a wooden crate of Emmental chesse shipped in from Switzerland. They spend hours cooking their grass fed beef by the side of the road, and nobody ever shows up to buy their cheeseburgers, because Burger King does all this shit effortlessly and actually has a store in town, and the hipsters quietly roll in to their own grills, carefully close the hood on themselves, and die screaming the lyrics to "Dancing Queen" by ABBA.

    There really is such a thing as a losing battle, and the far right seems to be spiritually compelled to continuously fight them, year after year, defeat after devastating defeat. I'm sorry, but no one is reading these complex critiques of the prevailing narratives, and in the meantime, you are losing precious time and energy by fixating on them. If you can't condense a message in to something that can be easily and instantly understood, it's time to find greener battlefields. The Left won time and time again on these "Tyrone Christ" cases. Please just accept that you can't beat them on this. And it doesn't even matter. Random little homicides and rapes don't matter. Even the Holocaust is being slowly forgotten.

    Replies: @Patrick McNally

    Lots of claptrap has been ground out and chewed down by people who spend their time around the Democratic Party. George Soros funds pseudo-intellectuals like Michelle Alexander who grind out crappy books like The New Jim Crow which postures as an academic treatise. People will gleefully spend their time combing through facts and factoids about the Bush family. Nothing which I wrote above is lengthy compared to that.

    The fact is that if 5 white boys were acquitted of charges of raping a black woman, and if the grounds for their acquittal were as flimsy as those for the Central Park 5, then all of the facts which I recited above would be blared out loud everywhere. Michael Moore would start getting a professional training in medical examinations so that he could recite in specialized lingo how we know that this was not a 1-man job. Give some credit where it’s due. Such people actually are capable of reading a much more lengthy treatise than the string of paragraphs which I put together. Inability to read anything at length is not the problem.

  186. @Anon
    @DanHessinMD


    I think this would be a really stupid hill for conservatives to fight on. Virtually everyone who saw the video intuit that Chauvin’s behavior was really wrong on a moral level. And it was.
     
    No it wasn’t. Not at all. Neck restraints have been used with hundreds of other suspects without injury. That hold does not impinge on the windpipe at all or cut off blood to the brain. The video only gives the appearance that he was applying significant pressure to the neck.

    Indeed, the autopsy report found—and I quote—“NO LIFE THREATENING INJURIES.” It also found no evidence of asphyxiation. Moreover, Floyd’s ability to talk (repeatedly and loudly and at length) gave the lie to his claim that he couldn’t breath. From the officer’s perspective he was crying wolf in order to get out of being arrested.

    Officer Chauvin’s restraining him was reasonable and safe. He and the other officers had a duty to make the arrest, protect themselves, protect the public, and safeguard Floyd, to prevent him from injuring himself Remember, he was in the street at the time and could have banged his head on the pavement, on the metal of squad car, or flopped around and gotten hit by oncoming traffic. Do you have any experience restraining a 6’7, muscled, 260-lb man who is amped up on amphetamines?

    Well I would say that people defending Chauvin are being like the bowtie conservatives usually are — stuck on principle with no common sense.
     
    I’ll admit to being principled on this. Officer Chauvin is innocent.

    Chauvin is not a nice guy, like, at all. A dude couldn’t breathe and kept saying so. Chauvin wouldn’t get off of him for a really long time.
     
    The fact Floyd could say so was proof that his airways were unobstructed.

    But Chauvin was so hard-hearted it is mind-And Floyd was barely moving and was totally outnumbered anyway. There wasn’t even any need.
     
    He had to keep Floyd restrained until the ambulance came. Floyd was in the middle of the street and resisting arrest. Officer Chauvin did everything by the book. He is an innocent man. He didn’t behave badly at all.

    Replies: @Anonymouse

    The difference between pressue on the front of the neck, the windpipe, and pressure on the side of the neck may be demonstrated this way. Press as hard as you can on the side of your neck. You will discover that the tendons and muscles there prevent any untoward effect. Then press gingerly on the front of your neck which does not resist pressure. Had Chauvin been kneeling on the front of Floyd’s neck, he would have been immediately asphixiated.

    From the video Chauvin’s face seems impassive, just doing what he was trained to do.

    • Replies: @absolom
    @Anonymouse

    "From the video Chauvin’s face seems impassive, just doing what he was trained to do."

    Exact !

  187. @anon
    @obwandiyag

    The fact he was a junkie is a red herring.

    No evidence of heroin in George Floyd's bloodstream. It's not the 70's, dude, check your calendar.

    The real fact is that if the cop had done this to a white guy you would be screaming bloody murder.

    Nah. The killing of Daniel Shaver in Arizona and subsequent events was obviously very bad, but nobody here was screaming anything, and even you should have noticed that.

    You guys are so transparent.

    It is odd that you are so pitifully bad at lying, given how much you practice. Can't decide which you are worse at, lying or trolling. Probably the power of "and" is a solution.

    Replies: @obwandiyag

    Better get your program updated. Your shill bot babble-o-mation is fraying. It’s on the fritz. Striving, and failing, to make sense of the more complex intellectual pronunciamenti–such as my own–it sputters, coughs, and poops out.

  188. @njguy73
    @Luzzatto

    If George Floyd was White, no one outside of his hometown would have heard of him, or given a crap about him if they knew.

    Replies: @Luzzatto, @obwandiyag

    Diversion. That’s not what Luzzato said. He said all of you guys on here would be saying Chauvin was bad if Floyd had been white. And he’s right. You definitely would have criticized him, instead of lionizing him, all depending on the race of his victim. Whether it got on the news or not is not relevant. Luzzato was not talking about that. Typical of you people to change the subject when you can’t deal with it. Hypocrites that you are.

  189. @TomSchmidt
    @Whiskey

    From Niccolo hissef:
    "If you cannot be both loved and feared, then it is better to be feared than loved." there follows a series of elaborations. Use the full quotation, please.

    Relevant to Chauvin: "No prince should mind being called cruel for keeping his subjects peaceful and loyal. Punishing a few, and thus averting disorder, is better than allowing troubles to develop that will hurt many. "

    This one is extremely relevant to Andrew Cuomo:
    "A prince must be careful not to make himself hated, even though he is feared; to do this, he must keep his hands off his subjects' property and their women. "

    "In conclusion, people love at their own wish, but fear at the prince's will, so a wise ruler will rely on what he can best control."
    Note: it would take 500 years for Robert Cialdini to write the book Influence, the Psychology of Persuasion, showing how people do not "love at their own wish," but are often seduced by the ministrations of sociopaths like the Prince.

    Replies: @obwandiyag

    And he shouldn’t murder their grandmothers either.

  190. @restless94110
    I know I'm coming late to the party, but.

    --Floyd broke the law and then sat around stoned out of his mind in the parking lot in his car. He was a clear danger if he had started driving his car.

    --Floyd in his initial encounters with the police dropped some drugs on the street that he was obviously selling.

    --Floyd ingested a buttload (no pun intended) of fentanyl, most likely to conceal from the cops his stash. This is similar to that young rapper who did the same when the cops entered his private jet as it landed--and then died from an OD. Look him up.

    --Floyd actively resisted arrest using a technique that many blacks have come to use--talking incessantly a mile a minute, gyrating to prevent being put in the back seat. You can see similar in the video of the neighborhood jogger/burglar Aurbry (sic) in his previous encounter with the law when he parked his car on the grass in the middle of a city park and was confronted by police--he rattled on incessantly and then finally took off running leaving his car in the middle of the park. Also very common is to say I can't breathe....while breathing deeply. The bottom line is that when the cops have decided to detain someone and the detainee resists, they are trained to not let the person go. He is being detained because the police believe he is a danger to the community and his actions must be "arrested" (i.e., stopped). This means it is their duty to keep the person detained and under custody. This is what they were doing there.

    --Floyd was foaming at the mouth. He would not be put into a police car. The police then realized he was having some type of medical issue and called for an ambulance. The autopsy shows clearly, unequivocally Floyd overdosing on fentanyl at this time, a symptom of which is slowed breathing. Floyd was also panicking, realizing the large amount of fentanyl he had ingested was too much for his body. He continued to vigorously resist.

    --Chauvin applied a standard police technique taught in police departments all over the United States, written in their manuals, demonstrated in police training films, in order to keep a resisting ex-felon under detention while the officers waited for the ambulance to arrive. Floyd's windpipe was not cut off (as autopsy showed). The technique taught all Minneapolis police does not damage the neck in any way.

    --The ambulance followed their GPS, which led them to a wrong location. This delayed their arrival by 15 minutes.

    --At some point during that wait, Floyd's sick, diseased heart succumbed to the massive fentanyl overdose Floyd had voluntarily ingested. He most likely would have died on the ambulance ride or later at the hospital. That he died of an overdosed on the street was pure coincidence, having nothing to do with Chauvin or any of the other officers.

    Nothing else matters in this case, except the facts stated above. The prosecutors should be criminally charged for withholding the body cam footage of the first encounter with Floyd that would have changed the public perception. They did it on purpose with criminal intent. The prosecutors and DA and AG should be removed from this case with prejudice and all charges on all police officers dropped with prejudice.

    This is what should go down if there is justice in America. No jury of any conscience could possibly vote to convict Chauvin on any of the puffed up charges.

    We will see clearly where people involved in this trial stand. Time will tell.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @Chrisnonymous

    A major problem for us armchair investigators is that we don’t have video of Floyd’s torso and lower body during the entire 9 minutes. So, we can’t see where Chauvin’s other knee was or whether the other officers were putting weight on him.

    The knee-on-neck cause of death claim is obviously wrong, and the narrative moved on from that within days of the original incident. The three possible ways in which Chauvin can be claimed to have killed Floyd are:

    1- By putting undo weight on his torso that prevented him from being able to inhale adequately.
    2- By keeping Floyd in a position that prevented him from being able to breath adequately.
    3- By failing to provide basic medical care, like CPR, once Floyd became unresponsive.

    We simply can’t see any evidence for 1. If the other officers’ body cams were on the whole time, however, there will be evidence for or against. My guess is that once we see any other body cam footage, it will turn out they were not putting any significant weight on his torso, just as it’s obvious from the footage we have that there was not any significant weight on his neck.

    A lot of people want 2 to be true, but the research into positional asphyxia suggests it is an issue wit obese people, which Floyd was clearly not, so it would be a difficult charge to make stick in a courtroom I suspect.

    I’m pretty sure the trial will focus on 3. While the history you mention of the incident and Floyd’s behavior is probably relevant to whether Floyd actually sealed his own fate (by framing the situation for Chauvin and Tao as a resisting arrest emergency rather than a medical emergency), it will not be relevant in the courtroom.

    With regard to 3, the only relevant question will be whether they can show that Floyd’s medical condition was beyond Chauvin’s ability to deal with, and about that I don’t know. As far as I know, opioids can’t suppress breathing in a way that someone stays awake and starts struggling for breath. It suppresses breathing in such a way that people stop breathing after losing consciousness. Floyd’s claims that he couldn’t breathe seem to suggest that traditional OD is not the cause of Floyd’s death. This is why the medical examiner said if Floyd had been found dead, he would have been ruled an OD rather actually ruling the death was an OD–the video evidence seems inconsistent with that.

    We’ll have to see what the defense can say about evidence (i.e., medical research) that Floyd’s condition was irreversibly leading him to death regardless of Chauvin’s actions.

    • Replies: @vhrm
    @Chrisnonymous

    The bodycam of the officer holding the feet is (among other places) in this article https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8614589/First-length-bodycam-footage-shows-George-Floyds-harrowing-final-moments-brutal-arrest.html
    (start around 16:00 )

    Can't see much what Chauvin is doing but they don't seem to be crushing him. They do keep him prone and you can definitely see when his hands/arms stop moving. It's not easy watching from this angle either knowing the outcome...

    Replies: @restless94110, @Chrisnonymous

    , @restless94110
    @Chrisnonymous


    A major problem for us armchair investigators is that we don’t have video of Floyd’s torso and lower body during the entire 9 minutes. So, we can’t see where Chauvin’s other knee was or whether the other officers were putting weight on him.
     
    No one cares about Floyd's torso or lower body. It is immaterial 100 percent. I don't have an armchair and I ain't an investigator. I use the facts and common sense. Try it one day.

    The knee-on-neck cause of death claim is obviously wrong, and the narrative moved on from that within days of the original incident.
     
    Are you high right now? Moved on? Go to CNN. Go to a BLM meeting. Tune in to Tucker Carlson last night and hear Glen Greenwald say that Floyd was killed. You are clearly out of touch with reality.

    1- By putting undo weight on his torso that prevented him from being able to inhale adequately.
    2- By keeping Floyd in a position that prevented him from being able to breath adequately.
    3- By failing to provide basic medical care, like CPR, once Floyd became unresponsive.
     
    Neither 1 nor 2 apply since the technique causes no difficulty in breathing whatsoever and is used by police forces all over the United States for years.

    As for 3, after watching the hurly burly of Floyd's actions in the full video and then adding the growling screaming mob around the officers, you seriously expected any the officers to immediately notice when it was that Floyd died of his self-induced overdose??? Which he would have died of even if CPR was administered or if the ambulance came on time?

    That is the trouble with you armchair investigators, especially the ones like you who want to apologize for black men who resist arrest.

    We’ll have to see what the defense can say about evidence (i.e., medical research) that Floyd’s condition was irreversibly leading him to death regardless of Chauvin’s actions.
     
    No we won't. 3 times the lethal dose of fentanyl is all the "medical research" anyone needs. He was a walking dead man who died. Case closed. Chauvin had nothing at all to with Floyd's death.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

    , @Art Deco
    @Chrisnonymous

    Michael Baden's not claiming positional asphyxia, so I don't think that's salable.


    Floyd’s claims that he couldn’t breathe seem to suggest that traditional OD is not the cause of Floyd’s death.

    His lungs were filling up with fluid and he was foaming at the mouth, consistent with overdose. I doubt police officers carry narcan or equipment to drain the fluid off the lungs.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

  191. @Chrisnonymous
    @restless94110

    A major problem for us armchair investigators is that we don't have video of Floyd's torso and lower body during the entire 9 minutes. So, we can't see where Chauvin's other knee was or whether the other officers were putting weight on him.

    The knee-on-neck cause of death claim is obviously wrong, and the narrative moved on from that within days of the original incident. The three possible ways in which Chauvin can be claimed to have killed Floyd are:

    1- By putting undo weight on his torso that prevented him from being able to inhale adequately.
    2- By keeping Floyd in a position that prevented him from being able to breath adequately.
    3- By failing to provide basic medical care, like CPR, once Floyd became unresponsive.

    We simply can't see any evidence for 1. If the other officers' body cams were on the whole time, however, there will be evidence for or against. My guess is that once we see any other body cam footage, it will turn out they were not putting any significant weight on his torso, just as it's obvious from the footage we have that there was not any significant weight on his neck.

    A lot of people want 2 to be true, but the research into positional asphyxia suggests it is an issue wit obese people, which Floyd was clearly not, so it would be a difficult charge to make stick in a courtroom I suspect.

    I'm pretty sure the trial will focus on 3. While the history you mention of the incident and Floyd's behavior is probably relevant to whether Floyd actually sealed his own fate (by framing the situation for Chauvin and Tao as a resisting arrest emergency rather than a medical emergency), it will not be relevant in the courtroom.

    With regard to 3, the only relevant question will be whether they can show that Floyd's medical condition was beyond Chauvin's ability to deal with, and about that I don't know. As far as I know, opioids can't suppress breathing in a way that someone stays awake and starts struggling for breath. It suppresses breathing in such a way that people stop breathing after losing consciousness. Floyd's claims that he couldn't breathe seem to suggest that traditional OD is not the cause of Floyd's death. This is why the medical examiner said if Floyd had been found dead, he would have been ruled an OD rather actually ruling the death was an OD--the video evidence seems inconsistent with that.

    We'll have to see what the defense can say about evidence (i.e., medical research) that Floyd's condition was irreversibly leading him to death regardless of Chauvin's actions.

    Replies: @vhrm, @restless94110, @Art Deco

    The bodycam of the officer holding the feet is (among other places) in this article https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8614589/First-length-bodycam-footage-shows-George-Floyds-harrowing-final-moments-brutal-arrest.html
    (start around 16:00 )

    Can’t see much what Chauvin is doing but they don’t seem to be crushing him. They do keep him prone and you can definitely see when his hands/arms stop moving. It’s not easy watching from this angle either knowing the outcome…

    • Replies: @restless94110
    @vhrm

    Interesting use of "harrowing" in the headline. Clearly prejudicial and about the feels. Wonder if it would have been so "harrowing" if Floyd had just said: Ok, officers, I'll get in the car and go to jail. I can fight the charges later in court.

    And then what happens to "harrowing?" Poof. All gone. Try it if you are ever approached by police while you are high out of your mind, sitting in the driver's seat or a car, after trying to pass counterfeit money, while dealing drugs, which you have just ingested in 3 times the lethal dose.

    Try to just go to jail without resisting and see how "harrowing" it is for you.

    , @Chrisnonymous
    @vhrm

    Oh, thanks, I hadn't seen that one before. You're right: it's hard to see what Chauvin's doing until after Floyd stops moving. He appears to have been keeping his right knee on Floyd's left arm and maybe over the left edge of Floyd's torso. A second officer seems to be kneeling on his legs. Floyd appears to have a little freedom of movement, enough to squirm a bit. It's difficult to make much more commentary than that.

  192. @JohnPlywood
    @Anon

    I like people wbo weren't captured.

    Replies: @bomag

    We don’t plan on making him a hero.

  193. @Anonymouse
    @Anon

    The difference between pressue on the front of the neck, the windpipe, and pressure on the side of the neck may be demonstrated this way. Press as hard as you can on the side of your neck. You will discover that the tendons and muscles there prevent any untoward effect. Then press gingerly on the front of your neck which does not resist pressure. Had Chauvin been kneeling on the front of Floyd's neck, he would have been immediately asphixiated.

    From the video Chauvin's face seems impassive, just doing what he was trained to do.

    Replies: @absolom

    “From the video Chauvin’s face seems impassive, just doing what he was trained to do.”

    Exact !

  194. @Chrisnonymous
    @restless94110

    A major problem for us armchair investigators is that we don't have video of Floyd's torso and lower body during the entire 9 minutes. So, we can't see where Chauvin's other knee was or whether the other officers were putting weight on him.

    The knee-on-neck cause of death claim is obviously wrong, and the narrative moved on from that within days of the original incident. The three possible ways in which Chauvin can be claimed to have killed Floyd are:

    1- By putting undo weight on his torso that prevented him from being able to inhale adequately.
    2- By keeping Floyd in a position that prevented him from being able to breath adequately.
    3- By failing to provide basic medical care, like CPR, once Floyd became unresponsive.

    We simply can't see any evidence for 1. If the other officers' body cams were on the whole time, however, there will be evidence for or against. My guess is that once we see any other body cam footage, it will turn out they were not putting any significant weight on his torso, just as it's obvious from the footage we have that there was not any significant weight on his neck.

    A lot of people want 2 to be true, but the research into positional asphyxia suggests it is an issue wit obese people, which Floyd was clearly not, so it would be a difficult charge to make stick in a courtroom I suspect.

    I'm pretty sure the trial will focus on 3. While the history you mention of the incident and Floyd's behavior is probably relevant to whether Floyd actually sealed his own fate (by framing the situation for Chauvin and Tao as a resisting arrest emergency rather than a medical emergency), it will not be relevant in the courtroom.

    With regard to 3, the only relevant question will be whether they can show that Floyd's medical condition was beyond Chauvin's ability to deal with, and about that I don't know. As far as I know, opioids can't suppress breathing in a way that someone stays awake and starts struggling for breath. It suppresses breathing in such a way that people stop breathing after losing consciousness. Floyd's claims that he couldn't breathe seem to suggest that traditional OD is not the cause of Floyd's death. This is why the medical examiner said if Floyd had been found dead, he would have been ruled an OD rather actually ruling the death was an OD--the video evidence seems inconsistent with that.

    We'll have to see what the defense can say about evidence (i.e., medical research) that Floyd's condition was irreversibly leading him to death regardless of Chauvin's actions.

    Replies: @vhrm, @restless94110, @Art Deco

    A major problem for us armchair investigators is that we don’t have video of Floyd’s torso and lower body during the entire 9 minutes. So, we can’t see where Chauvin’s other knee was or whether the other officers were putting weight on him.

    No one cares about Floyd’s torso or lower body. It is immaterial 100 percent. I don’t have an armchair and I ain’t an investigator. I use the facts and common sense. Try it one day.

    The knee-on-neck cause of death claim is obviously wrong, and the narrative moved on from that within days of the original incident.

    Are you high right now? Moved on? Go to CNN. Go to a BLM meeting. Tune in to Tucker Carlson last night and hear Glen Greenwald say that Floyd was killed. You are clearly out of touch with reality.

    1- By putting undo weight on his torso that prevented him from being able to inhale adequately.
    2- By keeping Floyd in a position that prevented him from being able to breath adequately.
    3- By failing to provide basic medical care, like CPR, once Floyd became unresponsive.

    Neither 1 nor 2 apply since the technique causes no difficulty in breathing whatsoever and is used by police forces all over the United States for years.

    As for 3, after watching the hurly burly of Floyd’s actions in the full video and then adding the growling screaming mob around the officers, you seriously expected any the officers to immediately notice when it was that Floyd died of his self-induced overdose??? Which he would have died of even if CPR was administered or if the ambulance came on time?

    That is the trouble with you armchair investigators, especially the ones like you who want to apologize for black men who resist arrest.

    We’ll have to see what the defense can say about evidence (i.e., medical research) that Floyd’s condition was irreversibly leading him to death regardless of Chauvin’s actions.

    No we won’t. 3 times the lethal dose of fentanyl is all the “medical research” anyone needs. He was a walking dead man who died. Case closed. Chauvin had nothing at all to with Floyd’s death.

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    @restless94110

    CNN yelling-heads and low-IQ BLM members are not a reflection of what might be argued in court. The situation is less cut and dried than you seem to grasp, and I hope Chauvin's lawyers are smarter than to just say, "he obviously died of Fentanyl".

    Replies: @restless94110

  195. @vhrm
    @Chrisnonymous

    The bodycam of the officer holding the feet is (among other places) in this article https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8614589/First-length-bodycam-footage-shows-George-Floyds-harrowing-final-moments-brutal-arrest.html
    (start around 16:00 )

    Can't see much what Chauvin is doing but they don't seem to be crushing him. They do keep him prone and you can definitely see when his hands/arms stop moving. It's not easy watching from this angle either knowing the outcome...

    Replies: @restless94110, @Chrisnonymous

    Interesting use of “harrowing” in the headline. Clearly prejudicial and about the feels. Wonder if it would have been so “harrowing” if Floyd had just said: Ok, officers, I’ll get in the car and go to jail. I can fight the charges later in court.

    And then what happens to “harrowing?” Poof. All gone. Try it if you are ever approached by police while you are high out of your mind, sitting in the driver’s seat or a car, after trying to pass counterfeit money, while dealing drugs, which you have just ingested in 3 times the lethal dose.

    Try to just go to jail without resisting and see how “harrowing” it is for you.

  196. @vhrm
    @Chrisnonymous

    The bodycam of the officer holding the feet is (among other places) in this article https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8614589/First-length-bodycam-footage-shows-George-Floyds-harrowing-final-moments-brutal-arrest.html
    (start around 16:00 )

    Can't see much what Chauvin is doing but they don't seem to be crushing him. They do keep him prone and you can definitely see when his hands/arms stop moving. It's not easy watching from this angle either knowing the outcome...

    Replies: @restless94110, @Chrisnonymous

    Oh, thanks, I hadn’t seen that one before. You’re right: it’s hard to see what Chauvin’s doing until after Floyd stops moving. He appears to have been keeping his right knee on Floyd’s left arm and maybe over the left edge of Floyd’s torso. A second officer seems to be kneeling on his legs. Floyd appears to have a little freedom of movement, enough to squirm a bit. It’s difficult to make much more commentary than that.

  197. @Chrisnonymous
    @restless94110

    A major problem for us armchair investigators is that we don't have video of Floyd's torso and lower body during the entire 9 minutes. So, we can't see where Chauvin's other knee was or whether the other officers were putting weight on him.

    The knee-on-neck cause of death claim is obviously wrong, and the narrative moved on from that within days of the original incident. The three possible ways in which Chauvin can be claimed to have killed Floyd are:

    1- By putting undo weight on his torso that prevented him from being able to inhale adequately.
    2- By keeping Floyd in a position that prevented him from being able to breath adequately.
    3- By failing to provide basic medical care, like CPR, once Floyd became unresponsive.

    We simply can't see any evidence for 1. If the other officers' body cams were on the whole time, however, there will be evidence for or against. My guess is that once we see any other body cam footage, it will turn out they were not putting any significant weight on his torso, just as it's obvious from the footage we have that there was not any significant weight on his neck.

    A lot of people want 2 to be true, but the research into positional asphyxia suggests it is an issue wit obese people, which Floyd was clearly not, so it would be a difficult charge to make stick in a courtroom I suspect.

    I'm pretty sure the trial will focus on 3. While the history you mention of the incident and Floyd's behavior is probably relevant to whether Floyd actually sealed his own fate (by framing the situation for Chauvin and Tao as a resisting arrest emergency rather than a medical emergency), it will not be relevant in the courtroom.

    With regard to 3, the only relevant question will be whether they can show that Floyd's medical condition was beyond Chauvin's ability to deal with, and about that I don't know. As far as I know, opioids can't suppress breathing in a way that someone stays awake and starts struggling for breath. It suppresses breathing in such a way that people stop breathing after losing consciousness. Floyd's claims that he couldn't breathe seem to suggest that traditional OD is not the cause of Floyd's death. This is why the medical examiner said if Floyd had been found dead, he would have been ruled an OD rather actually ruling the death was an OD--the video evidence seems inconsistent with that.

    We'll have to see what the defense can say about evidence (i.e., medical research) that Floyd's condition was irreversibly leading him to death regardless of Chauvin's actions.

    Replies: @vhrm, @restless94110, @Art Deco

    Michael Baden’s not claiming positional asphyxia, so I don’t think that’s salable.

    Floyd’s claims that he couldn’t breathe seem to suggest that traditional OD is not the cause of Floyd’s death.

    His lungs were filling up with fluid and he was foaming at the mouth, consistent with overdose. I doubt police officers carry narcan or equipment to drain the fluid off the lungs.

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    @Art Deco

    We can see that Floyd had something that looked like spittle on his lips at one point, but it's not clear to me he was foaming at the mouth. Floyd did not look like these photos when he was loaded on the ambulance:
    https://duckduckgo.com/?q=opioid+overdose+froth+around+mouth&iax=images&ia=images
    Furthermore, there was no sign during his struggle or after he fell silent of gurgling sounds, which should accompany foaming, and to my recollection, the medical examiner did not mention signs of a "foam plume". There will be EMT reports to come out in trial, though (if they are available now, I am not aware), so maybe they will report foaming.

    I agree that the fluid on the lungs looks like an overdose, but the medical examiner did not call it that way. Why not?

    In a normal overdose situation, you have the fact of death and the apparent lack of other causes, so the medical examiner can conclude OD from fluid on the lungs. However, the human body is fairly resilient, and people do not just die immediately from fluid. Heart patients with right-sided heart failure also develop fluid on their lungs, and while that is a medical situation that needs to be dealt with quickly, patients can go along struggling with poor breathing for quite some time. Fluid interferes with oxygen exchange but does not necessarily inhibit it altogether. Fluid on the lungs may be a situation where a person who can take deep breaths can survive longer than a person whose breathing is inhibited (as we saw with COVID, for example, positioning on the stomach improved oxygenation regardless of other factors). As a result, the actions of the officers may not have been non-contributary.

    There is also the complicating factor of Floyd's COVID status. It may be argued that the fluid was still, at least partially, a result of the infection (although I personally doubt that), in which case, the fact that Floyd was breathing adequately prior to arrest would mean the main contributing factors were the officers and not the fluid. (Again, personally, I don't think that.). An argument in favor of COVID fluid is that fluid on the lungs in ODs is not universal. One paper says less 10% of opioid users develop fluid on the lungs.

    Another reason that the medical examiner did not simply call OD is that Floyd seemed fairly mentally competent up until the point that he passed out. When an opioid OD kills from suppressing breathing functions, it works by suppressing breathing centers in the brain in the process of suppressing all brain function. So, a classic OD patient gets confused and groggy in the process of proceeding towards unconsciousness and death. That did not seem to be happening with Floyd.

    Usually, with an OD who had a good heart, the heart would stop when the lungs stopped passing oxygen. In Floyd's case, however, I think he may have had a heart attack prior to his lungs stopping working altogether. I think that's a possibility. If that's the case, he may have been salvagable with an AED and CPR.

    I think there are certainly enough unknowns that Chauvin shouldn't be beyond the reasonable doubt standard of guilt. However, just saying with certainty Floyd died of an OD and the evidence is the fluid is pretty weak. Certainly, if I were a prosecutor and you were a defense lawyer and that 's all you brought, you'd be in trouble.

    Replies: @Art Deco

  198. @Jack D
    Not going well for Chauvin - they have already seated several blacks on the jury even though the city is mostly white. This is a race case and the only thing that matters is the race of the jury. We saw in the OJ case that in race cases evidence is irrelevant. The best Chauvin can hope for now is a hung jury.

    Replies: @JohnPlywood, @Anonymous, @Gordo, @Redman, @Paperback Writer, @Art Deco

    they have already seated several blacks on the jury

    They’ve seated one. The problem has been that the judge refuses to allow the defense any strikes for cause. Also, to date, those seated skew young to an astounding degree – one of six has been over the median age of the adult population, one at about the median. The prosecution has been shameless in attempting to get blatantly biased people seated.

  199. @JohnPlywood
    @vhrm

    The bigger picture regarding false prosecutions is not Derek Chauvin's case, but the obscenely high rate of exoneration among inner black males.


    Despite making up about 12% of the US population, blacks are 62% of DNA exonerees.


    https://sites.law.duke.edu/forensicsforum/2020/06/05/race-and-dna-exonerations/

    https://sites.law.duke.edu/forensicsforum/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/2020/06/Screen-Shot-2020-06-05-at-2.24.59-PM.png


    Among DNA exonerations a stunning 80 percent were racial minorities. Most striking, 75% of the exonerees who were convicted of rape were black or Latino, while studies indicate that only approximately 30% to 40% of all rape convicts are minorities.
     
    You can help make the world a better place, by donating your income to black and Hispanic inmates. After all, if Blackstone's ratio is true, you'd be every bit in the wrong as Chauvin's prosecutors, by focusing on Derek Chauvin rather than the much larger pool of wrongful convictions among black and Hispanic males. Better for 1 cop to go down than for 10 innocent Black men to be jailed. And keeping Chauvin out of uniform reduces his chances of arresting an innocent person.


    Take heart, freedom fighters of Unz. We're going to all liberfied up in this bitch.

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @Chrisnonymous, @Negrolphin Pool, @Keypusher, @Patrick McNally

    You see that “203” in parentheses? That’s the number of exonerations. There are about six million black male felons in the United States.

    Get a statistical clue.

  200. @JohnPlywood
    @vhrm

    The bigger picture regarding false prosecutions is not Derek Chauvin's case, but the obscenely high rate of exoneration among inner black males.


    Despite making up about 12% of the US population, blacks are 62% of DNA exonerees.


    https://sites.law.duke.edu/forensicsforum/2020/06/05/race-and-dna-exonerations/

    https://sites.law.duke.edu/forensicsforum/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/2020/06/Screen-Shot-2020-06-05-at-2.24.59-PM.png


    Among DNA exonerations a stunning 80 percent were racial minorities. Most striking, 75% of the exonerees who were convicted of rape were black or Latino, while studies indicate that only approximately 30% to 40% of all rape convicts are minorities.
     
    You can help make the world a better place, by donating your income to black and Hispanic inmates. After all, if Blackstone's ratio is true, you'd be every bit in the wrong as Chauvin's prosecutors, by focusing on Derek Chauvin rather than the much larger pool of wrongful convictions among black and Hispanic males. Better for 1 cop to go down than for 10 innocent Black men to be jailed. And keeping Chauvin out of uniform reduces his chances of arresting an innocent person.


    Take heart, freedom fighters of Unz. We're going to all liberfied up in this bitch.

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @Chrisnonymous, @Negrolphin Pool, @Keypusher, @Patrick McNally

    Even if all of those exonerations were justified, it just means that when blacks commit the highest proportion of crimes then they also end up with the highest proportion of wrongful convictions. That should make intuitive sense. The obvious solution is for blacks to commit less crime.

    But in fact there have been phony exonerations of blacks which would never have been granted to white people in similar circumstances. The Central Park 5 is the obvious classical case of this. What was forensically proven to have been a gang-rape was reclassified as a 1-man job based strictly upon the confession of a perp who obviously meant to exonerate his fellow gang-members. This would never have resulted in a clearing of 5 accused white defendants who had been charged with raping a black or Jewish woman. One has to at least wonder how many other phony exonerations are there among this list of 203 (granting that some of those exonerations were surely justified).

  201. @restless94110
    @Chrisnonymous


    A major problem for us armchair investigators is that we don’t have video of Floyd’s torso and lower body during the entire 9 minutes. So, we can’t see where Chauvin’s other knee was or whether the other officers were putting weight on him.
     
    No one cares about Floyd's torso or lower body. It is immaterial 100 percent. I don't have an armchair and I ain't an investigator. I use the facts and common sense. Try it one day.

    The knee-on-neck cause of death claim is obviously wrong, and the narrative moved on from that within days of the original incident.
     
    Are you high right now? Moved on? Go to CNN. Go to a BLM meeting. Tune in to Tucker Carlson last night and hear Glen Greenwald say that Floyd was killed. You are clearly out of touch with reality.

    1- By putting undo weight on his torso that prevented him from being able to inhale adequately.
    2- By keeping Floyd in a position that prevented him from being able to breath adequately.
    3- By failing to provide basic medical care, like CPR, once Floyd became unresponsive.
     
    Neither 1 nor 2 apply since the technique causes no difficulty in breathing whatsoever and is used by police forces all over the United States for years.

    As for 3, after watching the hurly burly of Floyd's actions in the full video and then adding the growling screaming mob around the officers, you seriously expected any the officers to immediately notice when it was that Floyd died of his self-induced overdose??? Which he would have died of even if CPR was administered or if the ambulance came on time?

    That is the trouble with you armchair investigators, especially the ones like you who want to apologize for black men who resist arrest.

    We’ll have to see what the defense can say about evidence (i.e., medical research) that Floyd’s condition was irreversibly leading him to death regardless of Chauvin’s actions.
     
    No we won't. 3 times the lethal dose of fentanyl is all the "medical research" anyone needs. He was a walking dead man who died. Case closed. Chauvin had nothing at all to with Floyd's death.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

    CNN yelling-heads and low-IQ BLM members are not a reflection of what might be argued in court. The situation is less cut and dried than you seem to grasp, and I hope Chauvin’s lawyers are smarter than to just say, “he obviously died of Fentanyl”.

    • Replies: @restless94110
    @Chrisnonymous

    [Note: This reply was held in moderation for 4 days and is still hanging (#204). I am reposting it after email communications with Steve Sailer where he specifically instructed me to repost]

    You are projecting your own nonsense. He obviously died of a fentanyl overdose. What is wrong with you, man? Three times lethal. All the symptoms of fentanyl overdose (including breathing difficulties).

    Just because you can’t grasp how cut and dried it is means nothing to anyone least of all me. And who cares what CNN yelling heads or Low-IQ BLM thinks or says about anything? Why did you even bring this up? You sound addled and out of touch.

    Sometimes, often times, it is just that simple. Don’t murk up the waters with trivial nonsense.

    The neck hold was used all over the United States and was taught by the Minneapolis police!!

    Yes, it is just that simple. And the defense would do well to KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid).

  202. @Art Deco
    @Chrisnonymous

    Michael Baden's not claiming positional asphyxia, so I don't think that's salable.


    Floyd’s claims that he couldn’t breathe seem to suggest that traditional OD is not the cause of Floyd’s death.

    His lungs were filling up with fluid and he was foaming at the mouth, consistent with overdose. I doubt police officers carry narcan or equipment to drain the fluid off the lungs.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

    We can see that Floyd had something that looked like spittle on his lips at one point, but it’s not clear to me he was foaming at the mouth. Floyd did not look like these photos when he was loaded on the ambulance:
    https://duckduckgo.com/?q=opioid+overdose+froth+around+mouth&iax=images&ia=images
    Furthermore, there was no sign during his struggle or after he fell silent of gurgling sounds, which should accompany foaming, and to my recollection, the medical examiner did not mention signs of a “foam plume”. There will be EMT reports to come out in trial, though (if they are available now, I am not aware), so maybe they will report foaming.

    I agree that the fluid on the lungs looks like an overdose, but the medical examiner did not call it that way. Why not?

    In a normal overdose situation, you have the fact of death and the apparent lack of other causes, so the medical examiner can conclude OD from fluid on the lungs. However, the human body is fairly resilient, and people do not just die immediately from fluid. Heart patients with right-sided heart failure also develop fluid on their lungs, and while that is a medical situation that needs to be dealt with quickly, patients can go along struggling with poor breathing for quite some time. Fluid interferes with oxygen exchange but does not necessarily inhibit it altogether. Fluid on the lungs may be a situation where a person who can take deep breaths can survive longer than a person whose breathing is inhibited (as we saw with COVID, for example, positioning on the stomach improved oxygenation regardless of other factors). As a result, the actions of the officers may not have been non-contributary.

    There is also the complicating factor of Floyd’s COVID status. It may be argued that the fluid was still, at least partially, a result of the infection (although I personally doubt that), in which case, the fact that Floyd was breathing adequately prior to arrest would mean the main contributing factors were the officers and not the fluid. (Again, personally, I don’t think that.). An argument in favor of COVID fluid is that fluid on the lungs in ODs is not universal. One paper says less 10% of opioid users develop fluid on the lungs.

    Another reason that the medical examiner did not simply call OD is that Floyd seemed fairly mentally competent up until the point that he passed out. When an opioid OD kills from suppressing breathing functions, it works by suppressing breathing centers in the brain in the process of suppressing all brain function. So, a classic OD patient gets confused and groggy in the process of proceeding towards unconsciousness and death. That did not seem to be happening with Floyd.

    Usually, with an OD who had a good heart, the heart would stop when the lungs stopped passing oxygen. In Floyd’s case, however, I think he may have had a heart attack prior to his lungs stopping working altogether. I think that’s a possibility. If that’s the case, he may have been salvagable with an AED and CPR.

    I think there are certainly enough unknowns that Chauvin shouldn’t be beyond the reasonable doubt standard of guilt. However, just saying with certainty Floyd died of an OD and the evidence is the fluid is pretty weak. Certainly, if I were a prosecutor and you were a defense lawyer and that ‘s all you brought, you’d be in trouble.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Chrisnonymous

    I agree that the fluid on the lungs looks like an overdose, but the medical examiner did not call it that way. Why not?


    Give you a guess. Check out the Freddie Gray case in Baltimore or the Epstein case. Coroners will cave to political pressure. It was particularly egregious in the Gray case because they had security cam video collected from commercial vendors which demonstrated the paddy driver was operating the vehicle normally and the other passenger emerged from his compartment of the vehicle unharmed and reporting that he could hear Gray bouncing off the walls.

    There isn't one official involved in this case who hasn't made a questionable discretionary decision injurious to Chauvin. That's the local DA, that's the management of the police department, that's the corporation counsel, that's the governor, that's the attorney-general, that's the trial prosecutor, that's the trial judge. But somehow you fancy the coroner is above all that.



    Furthermore, there was no sign during his struggle or after he fell silent of gurgling sounds,

    You fancy you'd hear that in a rough video made on a public street with a mess of people around?



    Another reason that the medical examiner did not simply call OD

    Uh huh.

    ===


    The actual call is right there in the report of the quantum of fentanyl in his femoral blood. Maybe you go out and find some case reports of people surviving with that quantity of fentanyl in them, and you'd begin to make a case. Recall it was taken from vessels in his leg after the fentanyl had circulated throughout his system. That he was a big guy was immaterial.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

  203. @Chrisnonymous
    @Art Deco

    We can see that Floyd had something that looked like spittle on his lips at one point, but it's not clear to me he was foaming at the mouth. Floyd did not look like these photos when he was loaded on the ambulance:
    https://duckduckgo.com/?q=opioid+overdose+froth+around+mouth&iax=images&ia=images
    Furthermore, there was no sign during his struggle or after he fell silent of gurgling sounds, which should accompany foaming, and to my recollection, the medical examiner did not mention signs of a "foam plume". There will be EMT reports to come out in trial, though (if they are available now, I am not aware), so maybe they will report foaming.

    I agree that the fluid on the lungs looks like an overdose, but the medical examiner did not call it that way. Why not?

    In a normal overdose situation, you have the fact of death and the apparent lack of other causes, so the medical examiner can conclude OD from fluid on the lungs. However, the human body is fairly resilient, and people do not just die immediately from fluid. Heart patients with right-sided heart failure also develop fluid on their lungs, and while that is a medical situation that needs to be dealt with quickly, patients can go along struggling with poor breathing for quite some time. Fluid interferes with oxygen exchange but does not necessarily inhibit it altogether. Fluid on the lungs may be a situation where a person who can take deep breaths can survive longer than a person whose breathing is inhibited (as we saw with COVID, for example, positioning on the stomach improved oxygenation regardless of other factors). As a result, the actions of the officers may not have been non-contributary.

    There is also the complicating factor of Floyd's COVID status. It may be argued that the fluid was still, at least partially, a result of the infection (although I personally doubt that), in which case, the fact that Floyd was breathing adequately prior to arrest would mean the main contributing factors were the officers and not the fluid. (Again, personally, I don't think that.). An argument in favor of COVID fluid is that fluid on the lungs in ODs is not universal. One paper says less 10% of opioid users develop fluid on the lungs.

    Another reason that the medical examiner did not simply call OD is that Floyd seemed fairly mentally competent up until the point that he passed out. When an opioid OD kills from suppressing breathing functions, it works by suppressing breathing centers in the brain in the process of suppressing all brain function. So, a classic OD patient gets confused and groggy in the process of proceeding towards unconsciousness and death. That did not seem to be happening with Floyd.

    Usually, with an OD who had a good heart, the heart would stop when the lungs stopped passing oxygen. In Floyd's case, however, I think he may have had a heart attack prior to his lungs stopping working altogether. I think that's a possibility. If that's the case, he may have been salvagable with an AED and CPR.

    I think there are certainly enough unknowns that Chauvin shouldn't be beyond the reasonable doubt standard of guilt. However, just saying with certainty Floyd died of an OD and the evidence is the fluid is pretty weak. Certainly, if I were a prosecutor and you were a defense lawyer and that 's all you brought, you'd be in trouble.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    I agree that the fluid on the lungs looks like an overdose, but the medical examiner did not call it that way. Why not?

    Give you a guess. Check out the Freddie Gray case in Baltimore or the Epstein case. Coroners will cave to political pressure. It was particularly egregious in the Gray case because they had security cam video collected from commercial vendors which demonstrated the paddy driver was operating the vehicle normally and the other passenger emerged from his compartment of the vehicle unharmed and reporting that he could hear Gray bouncing off the walls.

    There isn’t one official involved in this case who hasn’t made a questionable discretionary decision injurious to Chauvin. That’s the local DA, that’s the management of the police department, that’s the corporation counsel, that’s the governor, that’s the attorney-general, that’s the trial prosecutor, that’s the trial judge. But somehow you fancy the coroner is above all that.

    Furthermore, there was no sign during his struggle or after he fell silent of gurgling sounds,

    You fancy you’d hear that in a rough video made on a public street with a mess of people around?

    Another reason that the medical examiner did not simply call OD

    Uh huh.

    ===

    The actual call is right there in the report of the quantum of fentanyl in his femoral blood. Maybe you go out and find some case reports of people surviving with that quantity of fentanyl in them, and you’d begin to make a case. Recall it was taken from vessels in his leg after the fentanyl had circulated throughout his system. That he was a big guy was immaterial.

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    @Art Deco

    "Maybe you go out and find some case reports of people surviving with that quantity of fentanyl in them... "


    The substance abuse deaths had a mean fentanyl blood concentration (26.4 ng/ml or μg/L) that was over twice that of the natural group (11.8 ng/ml)... The very wide and overlapping ranges of postmortem fentanyl concentrations effectively nullify the utility of correlating the dose and expected postmortem concentration for any particular death. Based on the variable relationship between dose and blood concentration, the antemortem dose cannot be reliably predicted based on the postmortem concentration. This does not, however, render the medical examiner/coroner unable to determine the cause and manner of death because the toxicology results are only one datum point among several that are considered.
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22890811/
     
    We will perhaps find out in the course of the trial whether Floyd was a regular opioid user or not. I suspect his comments about his mother's death (made at the beginning of the encounter with police) may indicate he was not a regular user and was just using that day because he was feeling sorry for himself, in which case he would not have developed tolerance. Nevertheless, even discounting the 26.4 ng/ml level, the 11.8ng/ml is a mean, not a limit.

    "Dear ladies and gentlemen of the jury, you have heard the medical examiner testify that, in his opinion, this was not a clear case of overdose, but I submit to you that you should ignore his testimony because he was obviously pressured to lie. As evidence, you can clearly see that the prosecution, government employees all, agree with the medical examiner..."

    I sure hope for Chauvin's sake that his lawyers present better cases than you would.


    Fentanyl is a synthetic opioid agonist used for pain control. Often administered as a transdermal patch, it is an interesting drug for study of postmortem redistribution. We hypothesized that fentanyl concentrations would increase over time after death, as measured in blood drawn on the day prior to autopsy and in blood drawn at the time of autopsy in ten cases where fentanyl patches were identified at the scene. Concentrations were compared, and heart blood to femoral blood ratios were calculated as markers of postmortem redistribution. Fentanyl concentrations measured in peripheral blood drawn the day of autopsy (peripheral blood 2 [PB2]) were higher than those drawn the day prior to autopsy (peripheral blood 1 [PB1]) with a mean ratio (PB2/PB1) of 1.80. The ratio of heart blood concentrations (HB) to femoral blood concentrations drawn at autopsy (PB2) had a mean ratio (HB/PB2) of 1.08. Some cases had blood from the same source analyzed at two different laboratories, and concentrations of fentanyl in those samples showed inter- and intralaboratory differences up to 25 ng/mL. Postmortem fentanyl concentrations may be affected by antemortem factors, postmortem redistribution, and laboratory variability. Forensic pathologists must use caution in interpreting fentanyl levels as part of death investigation.
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25065851/
     

    Objectives: The current review seeks to present data about fentanyl that are relevant to the interpretation of postmortem blood and tissue fentanyl concentrations as well as to highlight areas which can be helpful or misleading in the evaluation of deaths potentially related to fentanyl exposure.
    ...
    Results and conclusions: The postmortem behavior of fentanyl is influenced heavily by pH changes and the antemortem kinetic behavior of the drug, especially, by its distribution. Postmortem blood fentanyl concentrations do not correlate directly with antemortem blood concentrations. Without adequate evaluation of kinetic data, investigative information and consideration of postmortem changes, misinterpretation of postmortem fentanyl results is likely.
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20969499/
     

    Replies: @Art Deco

  204. @Art Deco
    @Chrisnonymous

    I agree that the fluid on the lungs looks like an overdose, but the medical examiner did not call it that way. Why not?


    Give you a guess. Check out the Freddie Gray case in Baltimore or the Epstein case. Coroners will cave to political pressure. It was particularly egregious in the Gray case because they had security cam video collected from commercial vendors which demonstrated the paddy driver was operating the vehicle normally and the other passenger emerged from his compartment of the vehicle unharmed and reporting that he could hear Gray bouncing off the walls.

    There isn't one official involved in this case who hasn't made a questionable discretionary decision injurious to Chauvin. That's the local DA, that's the management of the police department, that's the corporation counsel, that's the governor, that's the attorney-general, that's the trial prosecutor, that's the trial judge. But somehow you fancy the coroner is above all that.



    Furthermore, there was no sign during his struggle or after he fell silent of gurgling sounds,

    You fancy you'd hear that in a rough video made on a public street with a mess of people around?



    Another reason that the medical examiner did not simply call OD

    Uh huh.

    ===


    The actual call is right there in the report of the quantum of fentanyl in his femoral blood. Maybe you go out and find some case reports of people surviving with that quantity of fentanyl in them, and you'd begin to make a case. Recall it was taken from vessels in his leg after the fentanyl had circulated throughout his system. That he was a big guy was immaterial.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

    Maybe you go out and find some case reports of people surviving with that quantity of fentanyl in them… ”

    The substance abuse deaths had a mean fentanyl blood concentration (26.4 ng/ml or μg/L) that was over twice that of the natural group (11.8 ng/ml)… The very wide and overlapping ranges of postmortem fentanyl concentrations effectively nullify the utility of correlating the dose and expected postmortem concentration for any particular death. Based on the variable relationship between dose and blood concentration, the antemortem dose cannot be reliably predicted based on the postmortem concentration. This does not, however, render the medical examiner/coroner unable to determine the cause and manner of death because the toxicology results are only one datum point among several that are considered.
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22890811/

    We will perhaps find out in the course of the trial whether Floyd was a regular opioid user or not. I suspect his comments about his mother’s death (made at the beginning of the encounter with police) may indicate he was not a regular user and was just using that day because he was feeling sorry for himself, in which case he would not have developed tolerance. Nevertheless, even discounting the 26.4 ng/ml level, the 11.8ng/ml is a mean, not a limit.

    Dear ladies and gentlemen of the jury, you have heard the medical examiner testify that, in his opinion, this was not a clear case of overdose, but I submit to you that you should ignore his testimony because he was obviously pressured to lie. As evidence, you can clearly see that the prosecution, government employees all, agree with the medical examiner…

    I sure hope for Chauvin’s sake that his lawyers present better cases than you would.

    [MORE]

    Fentanyl is a synthetic opioid agonist used for pain control. Often administered as a transdermal patch, it is an interesting drug for study of postmortem redistribution. We hypothesized that fentanyl concentrations would increase over time after death, as measured in blood drawn on the day prior to autopsy and in blood drawn at the time of autopsy in ten cases where fentanyl patches were identified at the scene. Concentrations were compared, and heart blood to femoral blood ratios were calculated as markers of postmortem redistribution. Fentanyl concentrations measured in peripheral blood drawn the day of autopsy (peripheral blood 2 [PB2]) were higher than those drawn the day prior to autopsy (peripheral blood 1 [PB1]) with a mean ratio (PB2/PB1) of 1.80. The ratio of heart blood concentrations (HB) to femoral blood concentrations drawn at autopsy (PB2) had a mean ratio (HB/PB2) of 1.08. Some cases had blood from the same source analyzed at two different laboratories, and concentrations of fentanyl in those samples showed inter- and intralaboratory differences up to 25 ng/mL. Postmortem fentanyl concentrations may be affected by antemortem factors, postmortem redistribution, and laboratory variability. Forensic pathologists must use caution in interpreting fentanyl levels as part of death investigation.
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25065851/

    Objectives: The current review seeks to present data about fentanyl that are relevant to the interpretation of postmortem blood and tissue fentanyl concentrations as well as to highlight areas which can be helpful or misleading in the evaluation of deaths potentially related to fentanyl exposure.

    Results and conclusions: The postmortem behavior of fentanyl is influenced heavily by pH changes and the antemortem kinetic behavior of the drug, especially, by its distribution. Postmortem blood fentanyl concentrations do not correlate directly with antemortem blood concentrations. Without adequate evaluation of kinetic data, investigative information and consideration of postmortem changes, misinterpretation of postmortem fentanyl results is likely.
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20969499/

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Chrisnonymous

    Are you going to answer my question or not?

  205. @Chrisnonymous
    @Art Deco

    "Maybe you go out and find some case reports of people surviving with that quantity of fentanyl in them... "


    The substance abuse deaths had a mean fentanyl blood concentration (26.4 ng/ml or μg/L) that was over twice that of the natural group (11.8 ng/ml)... The very wide and overlapping ranges of postmortem fentanyl concentrations effectively nullify the utility of correlating the dose and expected postmortem concentration for any particular death. Based on the variable relationship between dose and blood concentration, the antemortem dose cannot be reliably predicted based on the postmortem concentration. This does not, however, render the medical examiner/coroner unable to determine the cause and manner of death because the toxicology results are only one datum point among several that are considered.
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22890811/
     
    We will perhaps find out in the course of the trial whether Floyd was a regular opioid user or not. I suspect his comments about his mother's death (made at the beginning of the encounter with police) may indicate he was not a regular user and was just using that day because he was feeling sorry for himself, in which case he would not have developed tolerance. Nevertheless, even discounting the 26.4 ng/ml level, the 11.8ng/ml is a mean, not a limit.

    "Dear ladies and gentlemen of the jury, you have heard the medical examiner testify that, in his opinion, this was not a clear case of overdose, but I submit to you that you should ignore his testimony because he was obviously pressured to lie. As evidence, you can clearly see that the prosecution, government employees all, agree with the medical examiner..."

    I sure hope for Chauvin's sake that his lawyers present better cases than you would.


    Fentanyl is a synthetic opioid agonist used for pain control. Often administered as a transdermal patch, it is an interesting drug for study of postmortem redistribution. We hypothesized that fentanyl concentrations would increase over time after death, as measured in blood drawn on the day prior to autopsy and in blood drawn at the time of autopsy in ten cases where fentanyl patches were identified at the scene. Concentrations were compared, and heart blood to femoral blood ratios were calculated as markers of postmortem redistribution. Fentanyl concentrations measured in peripheral blood drawn the day of autopsy (peripheral blood 2 [PB2]) were higher than those drawn the day prior to autopsy (peripheral blood 1 [PB1]) with a mean ratio (PB2/PB1) of 1.80. The ratio of heart blood concentrations (HB) to femoral blood concentrations drawn at autopsy (PB2) had a mean ratio (HB/PB2) of 1.08. Some cases had blood from the same source analyzed at two different laboratories, and concentrations of fentanyl in those samples showed inter- and intralaboratory differences up to 25 ng/mL. Postmortem fentanyl concentrations may be affected by antemortem factors, postmortem redistribution, and laboratory variability. Forensic pathologists must use caution in interpreting fentanyl levels as part of death investigation.
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25065851/
     

    Objectives: The current review seeks to present data about fentanyl that are relevant to the interpretation of postmortem blood and tissue fentanyl concentrations as well as to highlight areas which can be helpful or misleading in the evaluation of deaths potentially related to fentanyl exposure.
    ...
    Results and conclusions: The postmortem behavior of fentanyl is influenced heavily by pH changes and the antemortem kinetic behavior of the drug, especially, by its distribution. Postmortem blood fentanyl concentrations do not correlate directly with antemortem blood concentrations. Without adequate evaluation of kinetic data, investigative information and consideration of postmortem changes, misinterpretation of postmortem fentanyl results is likely.
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20969499/
     

    Replies: @Art Deco

    Are you going to answer my question or not?

  206. @Chrisnonymous
    @restless94110

    CNN yelling-heads and low-IQ BLM members are not a reflection of what might be argued in court. The situation is less cut and dried than you seem to grasp, and I hope Chauvin's lawyers are smarter than to just say, "he obviously died of Fentanyl".

    Replies: @restless94110

    [Note: This reply was held in moderation for 4 days and is still hanging (#204). I am reposting it after email communications with Steve Sailer where he specifically instructed me to repost]

    You are projecting your own nonsense. He obviously died of a fentanyl overdose. What is wrong with you, man? Three times lethal. All the symptoms of fentanyl overdose (including breathing difficulties).

    Just because you can’t grasp how cut and dried it is means nothing to anyone least of all me. And who cares what CNN yelling heads or Low-IQ BLM thinks or says about anything? Why did you even bring this up? You sound addled and out of touch.

    Sometimes, often times, it is just that simple. Don’t murk up the waters with trivial nonsense.

    The neck hold was used all over the United States and was taught by the Minneapolis police!!

    Yes, it is just that simple. And the defense would do well to KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid).

  207. @JohnPlywood
    @TWS

    You're right, I'm not a man of the right. I despise the right wing, because it can't do anything right. The right wing is a Faustian punching bag for everyone to pummel for the sake of sheer sadistic joy. Your entire existence consists of speaking out, getting beaten down by any opponent, only to cower back in to the darkness to formulate a new meme to bleat on the internet. It's like a sick game of Whack-a-Mole... and you're the moles.

    There's a way out, but it's going to involve you getting on your knees and moving that spine for me. I'm the only one who can save the loony right from themselves, and it requires your complete devotion.

    Replies: @Boomthorkell

    Go on.

  208. @Steve Sailer
    @Sean

    But then it turned out Floyd was loaded with fentanyl.

    Replies: @Sean, @Wizard of Oz

    I am pretty confident that in my state in Australia where one cannot opt for murder trial by judge without jury (a pity because our judges are not elected and have tenure to age 70) the DPP would think seriously of not prosecuting at all given the doubts that would be certain to be raised about the cause of death. How could a jury convict?

    It will be interesting to see what I would hope is well in hand for the defence. That is a number of filmed experiments wherein someone of Chauvin’s size spends 9 minutes doing exactly what Chauvin did to someone resembling Floyd with measurements of physiological variables before, during and after.

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