The Unz Review • An Alternative Media Selection$
A Collection of Interesting, Important, and Controversial Perspectives Largely Excluded from the American Mainstream Media
 TeasersiSteve Blog
Gregory Cochran's Theory of Who Blew Up the Nord Stream Pipelines
Email This Page to Someone

 Remember My Information



=>

Bookmark Toggle AllToCAdd to LibraryRemove from Library • B
Show CommentNext New CommentNext New ReplyRead More
ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
AgreeDisagreeThanksLOLTroll
These buttons register your public Agreement, Disagreement, Thanks, LOL, or Troll with the selected comment. They are ONLY available to recent, frequent commenters who have saved their Name+Email using the 'Remember My Information' checkbox, and may also ONLY be used three times during any eight hour period.
Ignore Commenter Follow Commenter
Search Text Case Sensitive  Exact Words  Include Comments
List of Bookmarks

The Ukrainians.

That does seem to make the most sense.

They had the personal motivation to hurt the Russians plus the strategic motivation to keep the Germans from figuring they can end their upcoming cold winter with a stroke of a pen and have the Russian gas flowing tomorrow. I don’t know how long it will take to fix the pipeline, but it seems likely that the Germans couldn’t expect it to be back in operation before the worst of the coming winter is over. So the benefit to the Germans of defecting now from the anti-Russian coalition is reduced.

Plus it’s a sign to the Germans that other pipelines could be blown up. If you can set off three bombs 200 feet under the sea, you can probably shoot an anti-tank missile at an above ground pipeline.

For the Ukrainians, it wasn’t much of an escalation — they’ve already been blowing up stuff in Russia, and this didn’t kill anybody.

As for the means, it’s not that hard to obtain a smallish commercial vessel at a port somewhere in the north Atlantic. You might be able to just lower mines down to the pipeline, but you’d probably want divers to place them precisely. Ukraine owned offshore oil wells in the Sea of Azov until Putin took Crimea in 2014, so they probably have some experienced divers.

Ukraine could probably pull off this operation for a budget of, say, one million dollars.

 
Hide 257 CommentsLeave a Comment
Commenters to Ignore...to FollowEndorsed Only
Trim Comments?
  1. Who said they were going to stop the pipelines?

    Who keeps goading the Russians (isn’t bear baiting illegal in the U.S.)?

    Who really really wants martial law in the U.S.?

    • Agree: Paul Jolliffe
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Coemgen


    Who said they were going to stop the pipelines?
     
    eh, Biden?

    https://youtu.be/OS4O8rGRLf8

    Replies: @MGB

    , @The Wild Geese Howard
    @Coemgen


    Who really really wants martial law in the U.S.?
     
    People who know they're going to get blown out in the midterm elections?
    , @Ken52
    @Coemgen

    The U.S. fingerprint. As had been said NATO is designed to keep Germany down and Russia out.

    https://www.moonofalabama.org/2022/09/whodunnit-facts-related-to-the-sabotage-attack-on-the-nord-stream-pipelines.html#more

    https://southfront.org/no-way-back-for-europe/

  2. No less clever is a theory on 4chan /pol/

    It was a Russki accident

  3. They wouldn’t do such a thing without telling the US of their intention. Their entire economy is funded by them & will be for the foreseeable future. The US would probably have encouraged it.

    • Replies: @Daniel H
    @halfhearted


    They wouldn’t do such a thing without telling the US of their intention. Their entire economy is funded by them & will be for the foreseeable future. The US would probably have encouraged it.
     
    Your comment is based on the presumption that Zelensky & Co. are really in control.

    Replies: @HammerJack, @SunBakedSuburb

    , @Hypnotoad666
    @halfhearted

    Ukrainians did it in the same way that it was Cuban exiles, by themselves, who invaded the Bay of Pigs. It's not impossible, however, that it was merely one faction of the Deep State that managed or organized the operation. In addition to being evil, they are usually incompetent and have the worst judgment possible.

    Replies: @Sam Malone

  4. The Germans are housing 800K Ukrainian refugees. Ukrainians are relying on German PzH2000, GMLRS and state-of-the-art short range air defense. It’s kind of reassuring to see Cochran make a complete fool out of himself once in a while. I remember another complete miss by him – attributing Assad’s chemical weapons attack (whether 2017 or 2018 one I do not remember) to Turks (I think he did that on Future Strategist podcast)

    • Agree: YetAnotherAnon
    • Replies: @Unladen Swallow
    @he's smart but not THAT smart

    Pretty sure he didn't say that, I don't recall any discussion about chemical weapons and Turkey supplying them. He might have said Russia was behind the Syrian use of chemical weapons, but that's a world of difference.

    He also argues that chemical weapons are not any more effective than conventional ones, especially since counter measures have been well known since World War I.

  5. Even if the Ukes did this, they couldn’t have done it without NATO allowing it to happen. So this is still a casus belli between Russia and NATO. The other alternative is that the Russians did it, which is also a potential casus belli between Russian and NATO.

    We are reaching Cuban Missile Crisis territory here, and JRB is no JFK.

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    https://twitter.com/gcochran99/status/1574804590116995072

    Replies: @NJ Transit Commuter, @J.Ross, @Hypnotoad666

    , @Peter Akuleyev
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    Even if the Ukes did this, they couldn’t have done it without NATO allowing it to happen.

    Of course they could. This is a shockingly easy stunt to pull off. Could even be some angry Lithuanians with a motorboat, some C4 and some diving gear.

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @NJ Transit Commuter, @PhysicistDave, @Loyalty Over IQ Worship, @Fluesterwitz, @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Dumbo

    , @Paul Jolliffe
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    Unlike Biden, Kennedy himself knew firsthand the dangers and horrors of war.
    Unlike Biden, Kennedy was deeply concerned about the impact on future generations of Americans any decisions he would make.
    Unlike Biden, Kennedy was a reader (if not a writer . . .) of history, very aware of the dangers of human omniscience, arrogance and certainty.
    Unlike Biden, Kennedy sought a negotiated way out.
    Unlike Biden, Kennedy did not want to increase the risk of nuclear war with Russia.
    Unlike Biden, Kennedy was unwilling to yield to the many hawks in his administration. (“The brass have one advantage - if this goes south, none of us will be around to tell them they were wrong.”)
    Unlike Biden, Kennedy was a smart and personally courageous man.

    Replies: @RAZ

    , @Colin Wright
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    '...We are reaching Cuban Missile Crisis territory here...'

    You say that as if it's a bug rather than a feature. From the start, all of this has been to distract us from what Biden's handlers are doing to this country.

    If the Ukraine is starting to cease to distract us -- well, it just has to be heated up.

  6. It’s a big problem if Greg is also lying… The Ukrainians wouldn’t light a match without US approval. There may have been Ukrainians on the dive team, but that the operation was conceived and executed by the CIA and the Pentagon is beyond doubt to anyone with a brain. It’s a disgrace what you Americans are doing to us Europeans…

    • Thanks: JimDandy
    • Replies: @Citizen of a Silly Country
    @bispora

    True, but it's also a disgrace what the Europeans are doing to themselves. You don't have to be our obedient pet. Stand up for yourselves and tell the Americans that you're not willing to go along with madness.

    , @HammerJack
    @bispora


    It’s a disgrace what you Americans are doing to us Europeans…
     
    Yeah, it's called "effing over" and the USA has been doing it to much of the world since ww2 if not longer.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    , @Alfa158
    @bispora

    European citizens are asking for what is being done to them. For that matter American citizens are also bending over and asking for it. Once they are sore enough, maybe the people of both continents will stand back up and tell their rulers to stop, but I suspect that the posterior pain level will have to go a lot higher before that happens.

    , @JimDandy
    @bispora

    Yeah, if "The Ukrainians" are behind something in this conflict, that means America is behind it, which means America's masters are behind it. But this:

    "that the operation was conceived and executed by the CIA and the Pentagon is beyond doubt to anyone with a brain."

    is a vicious snub of the Mossad that will no doubt secretly infuriate many hasbara here. So, good job.

    , @AnotherDad
    @bispora


    There may have been Ukrainians on the dive team, but that the operation was conceived and executed by the CIA and the Pentagon is beyond doubt to anyone with a brain. It’s a disgrace what you Americans are doing to us Europeans…
     
    War and geostrategy really does excite the male mind. Nothing wrong with that. It's our nature and strategizing is important.

    But a recurring theme in Sailer's Ukraine war threads is all the people--guys--o so self-confident in their assertions ... about a war that they can't possibly have much certainty about.

    I can think of a least a handful of plausible suspects with some interest or another--starting with Ukrainians or Poles but heck even running on to Russians if they aren't going to sell gas this winter and want to blame someone else.

    What I do know is ... I do not know. And pretty darn sure no one else here actually knows either.

    Replies: @Hunsdon, @Jack D

    , @James J. O'Meara
    @bispora


    that the operation was conceived and executed by the CIA and the Pentagon is beyond doubt to anyone with a brain.
     
    Steve and Cochran's obsessions with being smarter and edgy and clickbaity on one thing (noticing bleks) has mutated into trying to be smarter etc. about everything, even at the price of being childishly stubborn on defending Boomerism: Covid hysteria, viruses cause homosexuality, Trump is our guy not a Zionist stooge, there is no Deep State, IQ explains everything, Ukraine as plucky little democracy, etc.

    It's like J. Revulsky's idea of "high IQ idiocy" regarding "conspiracy theories." No matter how many times Lucy pulls the ball away, Steve thinks he's "too smart" to "fall for" some "conspiracy".

    It's starting to limit his effectiveness as a White advocate; Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus

    Replies: @Curle

  7. Are we looking at a new German-Russian nonaggression pact?

    • LOL: Abe
    • Replies: @HammerJack
    @International Jew

    It's always 1937 for some people.

    , @Hypnotoad666
    @International Jew


    Are we looking at a new German-Russian nonaggression pact?
     
    LOL. Except this time you couldn't pay either side to take over any part of Poland.

    But seriously, it will be instructive to see how the Germans react to being played like this by their "allies." The smart money would say there is simply no limit to their cuckery and they will stay the course. It must have occurred to some Germans, though, that if it they had their own independent foreign policy they could just buy cheap gas and be watm, rich and happy.

    Replies: @Jack D

  8. @NJ Transit Commuter
    Even if the Ukes did this, they couldn’t have done it without NATO allowing it to happen. So this is still a casus belli between Russia and NATO. The other alternative is that the Russians did it, which is also a potential casus belli between Russian and NATO.

    We are reaching Cuban Missile Crisis territory here, and JRB is no JFK.

    Replies: @MEH 0910, @Peter Akuleyev, @Paul Jolliffe, @Colin Wright

    • Replies: @NJ Transit Commuter
    @MEH 0910

    Do you think the Russians would believe the US / NATO if they claimed they had no idea that the Ukraine was going to do this? I don’t.

    , @J.Ross
    @MEH 0910

    Wow, what a colossal buffoon.

    , @Hypnotoad666
    @MEH 0910

    Yesterday, Steve was advocating a theory that it was a Polish op. without U.S. knowledge. Today, it's a Ukranian op. without U.S. knowledge. I guess you only lose social credit points on Twitter if you go against the U.S. Deep State directly.

    Replies: @Celt Darnell, @Corvinus

  9. Ukraine does not have direct access to the Baltic Sea which makes it less likely they carried out this attack alone. At the very least Poland was involved but it is obviously far more likely the the US/UK were the leaders of this terrorist operation.

    Since it is unlikely we will soon know for sure, the more interesting question is whom Russia will retaliate against? One obvious target would be Norwegian pipelines. Another strategy would be to concentrate their reprisals on the UK, an island nation already on the ropes economically. The Eurotunnel would be a high profile target. The many less iconic energy and information pipelines that link the UK to the EU and US would also be easy pickings.

    This war is the best thing ever for the anti-globalization movement!!

    • Replies: @bispora
    @Torn and Frayed

    Discretion is a prerequisite for this type of act of terrorism. That is why it is not even NATO, but the Pentagon, with the discreet presence of the CIA, that is responsible for the planning and the destruction.

    , @Kim
    @Torn and Frayed

    Undersea communication cables between UK and USA might be a reasonable tit-for-tat target.

  10. @MEH 0910
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    https://twitter.com/gcochran99/status/1574804590116995072

    Replies: @NJ Transit Commuter, @J.Ross, @Hypnotoad666

    Do you think the Russians would believe the US / NATO if they claimed they had no idea that the Ukraine was going to do this? I don’t.

    • Agree: J.Ross, Paul Jolliffe
  11. @halfhearted
    They wouldn't do such a thing without telling the US of their intention. Their entire economy is funded by them & will be for the foreseeable future. The US would probably have encouraged it.

    Replies: @Daniel H, @Hypnotoad666

    They wouldn’t do such a thing without telling the US of their intention. Their entire economy is funded by them & will be for the foreseeable future. The US would probably have encouraged it.

    Your comment is based on the presumption that Zelensky & Co. are really in control.

    • Replies: @HammerJack
    @Daniel H

    It's also based on the notion that the Ukrainians feel obliged toward the USA just because we gave them $60 billion. All they have to do is look at the middle east to see that US largesse seldom attaches any kind of requirements.

    Moreover the Ukrainians are savvy enough to realize that they're being funded because of Russia, not because of their own inherent virtue.

    , @SunBakedSuburb
    @Daniel H

    Right. It's a classic USN Seal operation using a specialized submersible launched from one of the many NATO sea assets or bases in the Baltic Sea. The commenters here who have theorized that this insane action is meant to bring Germany and the rest of Western Europe under the American boot are spot-on.

    Any American who stills supports sending globohomo puppet state Ukraine more American billions has got their head permanently lodged in their keister.

    Replies: @Richard B

  12. @Coemgen
    Who said they were going to stop the pipelines?

    Who keeps goading the Russians (isn't bear baiting illegal in the U.S.)?

    Who really really wants martial law in the U.S.?

    Replies: @Anonymous, @The Wild Geese Howard, @Ken52

    Who said they were going to stop the pipelines?

    eh, Biden?

    • Replies: @MGB
    @Anonymous

    nudelman publicly announced in January that if the Russians invaded Ukraine, Nord2 would be stopped, one way or another. i agree with j helmer, that it was the poles, with US assistance and connivance. (there was some deepwater military exercises taking place in the summer in the same location as the attacks) this is a play against russia and germany, and with the euro and pound sinking like a rock, i assume that germany will be in post-ww1 straits soon enough, the investment bank crowd (both internal and international) buying up distressed assets at bargain basement prices. i think that the pound and dollar are at parity, which i don't recall ever in my adult life. little israel in the ukraine, the cream of draft age male ukes ground to pulp, poland the US attack dog until it's outlived its usefullness, the EU in shambles, and a pissed off germany with the greens pushing for war (no political will for peace there, outside of ineffectual protests, and die linke calling for the expulsion of a party member MP for questioning the strategy of alienating russia), what could go wrong? i don't know if any financial types are aware of any pound movements before truss announced her seemingly intentional sinking of the currency. i know that there were allegations that some of her friends got prior notice of the intended economic plan (lower taxes, raise spending) and made a 'small fortune' off of currency speculation.

  13. So what were the supposed Ukrainian logistics in order to accomplish this? In fully deniable secrecy, of course. Please describe the details. Night train to Warsaw, drag the equipment and munitions to Gdansk train, rent fishing boat in Gdansk, …

    If we take this flight of fancy somewhat seriously, I suppose that means Denmark or perhaps Germany could invoke uhhh clause 5 or whatever to marshal the full might of NATO against Ukrainian aggression. One for all and all for one.

    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
    @Pericles

    Pericles wrote:


    If we take this flight of fancy somewhat seriously, I suppose that means Denmark or perhaps Germany could invoke uhhh clause 5 or whatever to marshal the full might of NATO against Ukrainian aggression. One for all and all for one.
     
    Since the explosions seem to have occurred in both Swedish and Danish waters, they are technically acts of war against both Sweden and Denmark.

    The question I keep pressing is: why has no one claimed credit?

    It would seem to be a real morale-booster for Zelensky, and I don't think he is too worried about "retaliation": Russia is already hitting him hard and likely to hit a lot harder in any case after the Donbass accedes to membership in the Russian Federation at the end of the week.

    Although I do wonder if Putin will announce that the Kremlin knows that Zelensky did it, so that Putin can rally his country around an escalation.

    Now, if NATO did it... it is easy to see why they are not taking credit -- it is, after all, an act of war.

    Could Poland have done it? They are damn fools if they did, and it is hard to imagine them doing it without US backing. Then, again, prudence has not always been a major Polish character trait...

    Replies: @Pericles, @Chrisnonymous, @Philip Neal

    , @Thelma Ringbaum
    @Pericles

    Poland obviously provided the passage, if not helped in the act. Poland is suing Germany for reparations now, nationalist fewer runs high, and there bound to be rogue fractions in the Polands intelligence or military to do this.

    , @Ron Unz
    @Pericles


    So what were the supposed Ukrainian logistics in order to accomplish this? In fully deniable secrecy, of course. Please describe the details. Night train to Warsaw, drag the equipment and munitions to Gdansk train, rent fishing boat in Gdansk, …
     
    I suppose it's remotely possible that the Ukrainians did it, but even leaving aside the logistics of an operation hundreds of miles from their own country, I wonder if they have the necessary military underwater technology. It hardly seems a trivial operation.

    So Poland seems a much more likely suspect. But Sikorski, their former Foreign Minister, who's very well plugged in with America's political/national security establishment (married to Anne Applebaum) explicitly "thanked" America. Anyway, if Poland (or Ukraine) did it, I can't believe they would have taken such a step without authorization/encouragement by powerful elements of the American government. Probably no one would have asked Biden since he's out to lunch, but surely senior American figures would have given a green-light or quite likely ordered the operation itself, whether it was carried out by Polish proxies or directly by American forces.

    Naturally the Washington Post and other Deep State controlled MSM immediately blamed the Russians for blowing up their own pipeline, presumably because they're just evil and insane. Probably more than half the American public will be stupid enough to believe that.

    Given the disastrous energy problems Germany and the rest of Europe are facing this winter, the human consequences could be horrendous, but our ruling Deep State elements don't care about that. My guess is that most Europeans will sooner or later understand that elements of the American government were probably the ones ultimately responsible, with gigantic geopolitical consequences very harmful to America's longterm national interests. So the attack was an extremely reckless and foolish decision.

    So far, I'd guess that many or most of the iSteve commenters are probably nodding their heads in agreement. But now comes the "touchy" part.

    This entire scenario seems remarkably similar to the one I've been suggesting for more than two years on the origins of Covid, namely that there's strong perhaps even overwhelming evidence that the global epidemic was due to an American biowarfare attack against China (and Iran):

    https://www.unz.com/page/covid-biowarfare-articles/

    Just as in this case, Trump himself was almost certainly out of the loop, but the attack was probably orchestrated by top figures in his administration, who immediately tried (somewhat successfully) to blame the Chinese for the viral epidemic in their own country.

    National leaders who take extremely reckless and foolish actions with disastrous longterm consequences for America's position in the world are more likely to repeat that sort of behavior.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Chrisnonymous, @Dmon, @Matt Buckalew, @H. L. M, @Corvinus, @Tex, @Buzz Mohawk, @Anonymous

    , @AnotherDad
    @Pericles


    So what were the supposed Ukrainian logistics in order to accomplish this? In fully deniable secrecy, of course. Please describe the details. Night train to Warsaw, drag the equipment and munitions to Gdansk train, rent fishing boat in Gdansk, …
     
    Pericles, while I agree it is much easier for the Poles--they're right there--you're implying this is some sort of difficult operation to pull off.

    I'm not a demolitions guy, but as just an "intelligent reader", this sort of thing looks like it takes some decently trained guys, some explosives and a couple of these remote submersible drones. Outside the explosives gear the modern treasure hunter uses. Hardly some super complex operation.

    ~~

    The notable thing about modernity is just how vulnerable a lot of the key infrastructure is--pipelines, undersea cables, transmission towers ...

    For a nation to be seriously energy dependent on a pipeline that pretty much anyone can disable in a cheapo operation that even a small rogue group--not to mention any hostile nation--could throw together is ridiculous.

    All this stuff is orders of magnitude less important than the immivasion crisis. But nations ought to be putting aside mere "marketplace" concerns and building systems/infrastructure defense/energy/industrial/communcations/transportation/medical ... that is much more robust and doesn't have "single points of failure".

    Replies: @Pericles, @Anonymous

  14. in June BALTOPS22 Naval war games the US Navy was testing new underwater unmanned drone tech nearby …. could it be connected?

    https://seapowermagazine.org/baltops-22-a-perfect-opportunity-for-research-and-resting-new-technology/

    • Thanks: beavertales
  15. Gazprom may be about to cut off gas supplies to Ukraine:

  16. The key thing about NordStream 2 is it’s unnecessary from a practical standpoint, it was necessary from a geopolitical stand point, it meant Germany no longer had to deal with the potential for Poland or Ukraine to block or threaten to block the flow of gas.

    Therefore both countries lose transit fees but more importantly they lose political control and leverage.

    Ukraine could not have done this. They do not have the expertise or access to the Baltic sea to sabotage a pipeline 70m under water. Meanwhile we see the breakpoints are all close to the Prussian shore. It was the Poles. The only question is, did the US know or sanction it and if they sanctioned it, help them. Maybe somebody could say Ukraine ordered it or suggested it but the practical action of doing it would have to fall to Poland and they’d have to agree.

    The Poles in particular have been inveighing about NS2 it from the start.

    https://kafkadesk.org/2021/05/21/poland-angered-by-us-president-bidens-nord-stream-ii-decision

    Poland has reacted angrily to President Joe Biden’s decision to waive US sanctions on Nord Stream II, warning the move could threaten energy security across Central and Eastern Europe.

    “The information is definitely not positive from the security point of view, as we know perfectly that Nord Stream II is not only a business project – it is mostly a geopolitical project,” said Piotr Muller, a spokesman for the Polish government.

    Now Sikorski posted the clip of Biden suggesting that the US would stop NS2 no matter what Germany had to say about it, ie by force. More damning from a US perspective is this clip of Victoria Nuland, the psychopathic pointwoman neocon on provoking Russia saying it more explicitly.

    https://twitter.com/azmilitary1/status/1574767709258137606

    But Germany has iced NS2, so blatant violent action was unnecessary and escalatory in a way the neocons don’t seem to want. (If this was the US it’d be a very serious act of aggression towards Germany and also Denmark who have an environmental catastrophe off Bornholm) They’re happy with this being a proxy war and do not want to confront the Russians military directly which things like this increase and without a plausible payoff in terms lengthening the war, Germany was already as hostile and non-cooperative with Russia as it could be and there was no serious talk of getting NS2 up and running.

    Remember, the neocons agenda is to bleed Russia and have it commit military resources there for as long as possible to stop them intervening in Syria or anywhere in the Middle East. And they’re getting that with (Free to them) Ukrainian lives and territory, no need to raise the temperature and risk a nuclear war with Russia.

    Sikorski is not currently in the Polish cabinet so we can assume he doesn’t really know what happened.

    For example, Tony Blinken made this cryptic statement about what happened which is differently to the usual comment you’d expect for a US denial of US actions. He said if it was sabotage, that it’d be “in no ones interest”. IE, the Poles did this on their own and we don’t condone it.

    This would not be the first time the Poles and the Baltic countries have taken actions to increase the tension and bring things closer to a direct NATO war with Russia. The first big isntance was the promises to give NATO Soviet era aircraft directly to Ukraine which also had the otherwise anti-Russia neocon Blinken running around desperately trying to not have things boil over. Then we had Lithuania causing the crisis by threatening to blockade land supplies to Kaliningrad which had EU leaders desperately try to defuse.

    It could also be, as Steve noted, that Sikorski is trying to heighten tensions by deliberately falsely implicating the US as main party or collaborator.

    That it was a Poles seems even more likely given an anti-Russian narrative has been implied (NYT style with the headline) but not spoken outright and indeed there seems to be some nervousness in the West about it. This is, like all the other rogue escalation attempts by Poland and the Baltics, treated as a serious and not welcome development without the same propaganda coverage.

    Although one other suspect or accomplice raises it’s head merely because the UK intel mouthpiece (A role similar to that of the WaPo in the US) The Telegraph did try to blame it on the Russians early on.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/09/27/russian-sabotage-feared-unprecedented-damage-nord-stream-gas

    Though this may have been a result of early reporting which didn’t make clear the nature of the ‘faults’.

    So we have motive, ability and a modus operandi (Crazy rogue escalatory actions) for Poland and not for anybody else. These kinds of crazy rogue actions are why I keep saying if this does go to a NATO war Poland will be the one who did it.

    With the destruction of NS2 Germany is now hostage to Poland in terms of keeping this state of unpeace with Russia. It can now only be supplied with the industry saving gas from the pipelines through Ukraine and Poland.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    @Altai

    "Germany has iced NS2, so blatant violent action was unnecessary and escalatory"

    The fear was that Germany might "cry uncle" as factories closed down and more people came onto the street asking for NS2 to reopen.

    "blatant violent action was unnecessary and escalatory in a way the neocons don’t seem to want"

    LOL

    "If this was the US it’d be a very serious act of aggression towards Germany"

    It was, and it is. But, without taking any guilt away from the US (or possibly UK proxies), Germany left themselves open here by not approving NS2 when they could have done. They bared their throat, now "someone" has cut it.

    "He that will not when he may, when he will he shall have nay"

    To vary the metaphor, Germany is the teenage girl on a sink estate who has foolishly taken an overdose, NS2/Russia is the ambulance with an antidote pulled up outside, and the US is the local bad-boy breaking into the ambulance and stealing the drug bag!


    I must say the US really are giving Germany a hell of a beating. NS1 gone as well!

    Be fascinating to see what kind of battered wife syndrome responses come from the German Government.

    The UK media, btw is unanimously

    a) NOT making the attack the main story
    b) using the usual "suggestio falsi" tactics - "Russia accused of sabotage" is the general theme. Certainly the Daily Mail commenters aren't having it.

    , @Coemgen
    @Altai

    What country has a rich recent history of going around the world creating problems for other countries?

    Poland?

    Really?

    Can't you think of another country that fits the profile just a little better?

    Replies: @Thelma Ringbaum

    , @Pericles
    @Altai

    Attacking your big next-door neighbor's and putative ally's infrastructure seems a little bit too insane though.

    , @YetAnotherAnon
    @Altai


    "It was the Poles. "
     
    Not the people whose fleet were in the area and whose helicopters were flying along the pipeline track on September 2?

    https://www.republicworld.com/world-news/us-news/us-helicopters-fly-above-sites-of-nord-stream-blasts-leak-as-europe-suspects-sabotage-articleshow.html


    He detailed that the helicopters were spotted on September 2 and may have taken off from the USS Kearsarge (LHD-3), the third Wasp-class amphibious assault ship of the United States Navy. Makarov was discussing the "probable method" of sabotage at Nord Stream pipelines.
     
    https://img.republicworld.com/republic-prod/stories/images/1664319977633381e982af9.png


    (I must say taking advice from Greg Cochran, interesting guy but a real blowhard on things he has little knowlege of, is like asking Russia's Shoigu for his ideas on genetics.


    "USA has made repeated threats against Nord Stream 2.
    Videos up on YouTube showing both Biden and Nuland recently threatening NS2 plus many, many videos where US politicians claiming NS2 should be shut down for years.
    So US had the political motive, the military means, will benefit financially and SAID they would destroy it.
    Then, a high ranking Polish official friendly with US regime publicly thanks US for destroying it.
    At this point, why is there even a discussion about who did it?"
     
    )

    Replies: @beavertales

    , @Achmed E. Newman
    @Altai

    I have no argument with the rest of your comment, Altai, due to my knowing almost nothing about these Euro politics. On this:


    ... and also Denmark who have an environmental catastrophe off Bornholm)
     
    I don't know. It's nothing like an oil spill. Sea life may be affected. I didn't get all the details, but it looks like this leak was 10 or so miles east or southeast of the 227 mi^2 island of 40,000 people. I suppose if the wind starts blowing out of the east people will smell it (assuming the mercaptan, the ingredient for the smell, had already been added).

    I'd like to know if the Russians can drain out some of the (originally 11 billion ft^3) NG from their end and how long it will take to empty the pipeline(s). Can it be repaired before that time anyway?

    It doesn't sound like a catastrophe for Bornholm, though, except for possibly the fishing. As for the whole world, as I've read* in places, the emptying of the entire amount in into the atmosphere will result in an extra 1 part per 10 billion spread over the world's first 3 miles of atmosphere, per a quick calculation.

    BTW, they may as well light it up for fun at least. It'd be like a temporary large Bunsen Burner for the scientific community.

    .

    * yahoo, who I try to avoid, called it a Climate Calamity, which I gotta admit, has a great ring to it.

    Replies: @Alfa158, @David Davenport, @Reg Cæsar

    , @BB753
    @Altai

    Just because Poles or Ukrainians wanted to blow the pipeline up doesn't mean that they did it. I posit only the Royal Navy had the means to do it. Yeah, the UK Navy.

    Replies: @Lockean Proviso

    , @AnotherDad
    @Altai


    The key thing about NordStream 2 is it’s unnecessary from a practical standpoint, it was necessary from a geopolitical stand point, it meant Germany no longer had to deal with the potential for Poland or Ukraine to block or threaten to block the flow of gas.

    Therefore both countries lose transit fees but more importantly they lose political control and leverage.
     
    This.

    I'd spin it differently--Russia wants to pry Germany loose from any dependency on Ukraine/Poland, so its relations with its western flank--including dicking around there--are independent of selling gas to the Germans. This is why the project was broadly opposed in Europe as violating the whole European solidarity, group hug thing.

    You only wish there would have been as much push back against Merkel trashing European solidarity/interests in something orders of magnitude more important.

    Replies: @Cagey Beast, @Jack D

    , @Sam Malone
    @Altai

    Interesting analysis, strong enough to now make me wonder if it was the Poles doing a "rogue escalatory action" (I like that phrase, as well as the "state of unpeace with Russia" we're now in). Though I wouldn't have thought the Poles could do it without us noticing it in time to order them to stop (as I said in my above comment about Ukraine no way being able to do it alone and unauthorized.) Is it possible we see it going down and did tell the Poles to stop, and they just ignored us or "didn't hear in time"?

    Maybe more will come to light in the next few days or weeks that gives us a better idea of the most likely actor. It would be good to know who the maniac is out there I guess, not that any of us can do anything about it.

    Thanks for your many lengthy and impressive contributions to this site.

  17. @Torn and Frayed
    Ukraine does not have direct access to the Baltic Sea which makes it less likely they carried out this attack alone. At the very least Poland was involved but it is obviously far more likely the the US/UK were the leaders of this terrorist operation.

    Since it is unlikely we will soon know for sure, the more interesting question is whom Russia will retaliate against? One obvious target would be Norwegian pipelines. Another strategy would be to concentrate their reprisals on the UK, an island nation already on the ropes economically. The Eurotunnel would be a high profile target. The many less iconic energy and information pipelines that link the UK to the EU and US would also be easy pickings.

    This war is the best thing ever for the anti-globalization movement!!

    Replies: @bispora, @Kim

    Discretion is a prerequisite for this type of act of terrorism. That is why it is not even NATO, but the Pentagon, with the discreet presence of the CIA, that is responsible for the planning and the destruction.

  18. Ukraine is busy elsewhere which leaves two main suspects….

    The US (was in the area and their ships went dark for a time). After throwing in their energy lot so enthusiastically with russia, a lot of the Gerrman political establishment is still hoping for a russian victory so they can turn the gas back on (so they won’t have to exploit any of their own).
    This removes that for the time being. It’s hard to get Germany’s attention at time. This does that.

    russia: russia has been at hybrid war with the west/US since around 2006 (look up a guy named Surkov). RT and its various disinfo campaigns are part of that and generally sowing chaos in the EU is part of that. russia also funded environmental lobbies to maximize German gas dependence.
    The Baltic Pipe (terrible or great name depending on your viewpoint) just opened and so russia wants Europe on edge with countries accusing each other and this acommplishes that.

    Not sure which way I go yet.

    • Replies: @Fluesterwitz
    @cliff arroyo


    a lot of the Gerrman political establishment is still hoping for a russian victory
     
    [sic]

    Pray tell, who is this lot? I might be persuadable to vote for them, if I had not to, sadly, deem them the fruit of your fertile imagination.
  19. Cochran went with Cui Bono?

    I always figured Cochran as a “fondle the balls” sort of guy.

    Well fuck me, next he’ll be targeting the Jews!

    Shut that Nazi-phobic piece of shit down!

  20. @Altai
    The key thing about NordStream 2 is it's unnecessary from a practical standpoint, it was necessary from a geopolitical stand point, it meant Germany no longer had to deal with the potential for Poland or Ukraine to block or threaten to block the flow of gas.

    Therefore both countries lose transit fees but more importantly they lose political control and leverage.

    Ukraine could not have done this. They do not have the expertise or access to the Baltic sea to sabotage a pipeline 70m under water. Meanwhile we see the breakpoints are all close to the Prussian shore. It was the Poles. The only question is, did the US know or sanction it and if they sanctioned it, help them. Maybe somebody could say Ukraine ordered it or suggested it but the practical action of doing it would have to fall to Poland and they'd have to agree.

    The Poles in particular have been inveighing about NS2 it from the start.

    https://kafkadesk.org/2021/05/21/poland-angered-by-us-president-bidens-nord-stream-ii-decision

    Poland has reacted angrily to President Joe Biden’s decision to waive US sanctions on Nord Stream II, warning the move could threaten energy security across Central and Eastern Europe.

    “The information is definitely not positive from the security point of view, as we know perfectly that Nord Stream II is not only a business project – it is mostly a geopolitical project,” said Piotr Muller, a spokesman for the Polish government.
     

    Now Sikorski posted the clip of Biden suggesting that the US would stop NS2 no matter what Germany had to say about it, ie by force. More damning from a US perspective is this clip of Victoria Nuland, the psychopathic pointwoman neocon on provoking Russia saying it more explicitly.

    https://twitter.com/azmilitary1/status/1574767709258137606

    But Germany has iced NS2, so blatant violent action was unnecessary and escalatory in a way the neocons don't seem to want. (If this was the US it'd be a very serious act of aggression towards Germany and also Denmark who have an environmental catastrophe off Bornholm) They're happy with this being a proxy war and do not want to confront the Russians military directly which things like this increase and without a plausible payoff in terms lengthening the war, Germany was already as hostile and non-cooperative with Russia as it could be and there was no serious talk of getting NS2 up and running.

    Remember, the neocons agenda is to bleed Russia and have it commit military resources there for as long as possible to stop them intervening in Syria or anywhere in the Middle East. And they're getting that with (Free to them) Ukrainian lives and territory, no need to raise the temperature and risk a nuclear war with Russia.

    Sikorski is not currently in the Polish cabinet so we can assume he doesn't really know what happened.

    For example, Tony Blinken made this cryptic statement about what happened which is differently to the usual comment you'd expect for a US denial of US actions. He said if it was sabotage, that it'd be "in no ones interest". IE, the Poles did this on their own and we don't condone it.

    https://twitter.com/kylieatwood/status/1574791417049882626

    This would not be the first time the Poles and the Baltic countries have taken actions to increase the tension and bring things closer to a direct NATO war with Russia. The first big isntance was the promises to give NATO Soviet era aircraft directly to Ukraine which also had the otherwise anti-Russia neocon Blinken running around desperately trying to not have things boil over. Then we had Lithuania causing the crisis by threatening to blockade land supplies to Kaliningrad which had EU leaders desperately try to defuse.

    It could also be, as Steve noted, that Sikorski is trying to heighten tensions by deliberately falsely implicating the US as main party or collaborator.

    That it was a Poles seems even more likely given an anti-Russian narrative has been implied (NYT style with the headline) but not spoken outright and indeed there seems to be some nervousness in the West about it. This is, like all the other rogue escalation attempts by Poland and the Baltics, treated as a serious and not welcome development without the same propaganda coverage.

    Although one other suspect or accomplice raises it's head merely because the UK intel mouthpiece (A role similar to that of the WaPo in the US) The Telegraph did try to blame it on the Russians early on.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/09/27/russian-sabotage-feared-unprecedented-damage-nord-stream-gas

    Though this may have been a result of early reporting which didn't make clear the nature of the 'faults'.

    So we have motive, ability and a modus operandi (Crazy rogue escalatory actions) for Poland and not for anybody else. These kinds of crazy rogue actions are why I keep saying if this does go to a NATO war Poland will be the one who did it.

    With the destruction of NS2 Germany is now hostage to Poland in terms of keeping this state of unpeace with Russia. It can now only be supplied with the industry saving gas from the pipelines through Ukraine and Poland.

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon, @Coemgen, @Pericles, @YetAnotherAnon, @Achmed E. Newman, @BB753, @AnotherDad, @Sam Malone

    “Germany has iced NS2, so blatant violent action was unnecessary and escalatory”

    The fear was that Germany might “cry uncle” as factories closed down and more people came onto the street asking for NS2 to reopen.

    “blatant violent action was unnecessary and escalatory in a way the neocons don’t seem to want”

    LOL

    “If this was the US it’d be a very serious act of aggression towards Germany”

    It was, and it is. But, without taking any guilt away from the US (or possibly UK proxies), Germany left themselves open here by not approving NS2 when they could have done. They bared their throat, now “someone” has cut it.

    “He that will not when he may, when he will he shall have nay”

    To vary the metaphor, Germany is the teenage girl on a sink estate who has foolishly taken an overdose, NS2/Russia is the ambulance with an antidote pulled up outside, and the US is the local bad-boy breaking into the ambulance and stealing the drug bag!

    I must say the US really are giving Germany a hell of a beating. NS1 gone as well!

    Be fascinating to see what kind of battered wife syndrome responses come from the German Government.

    The UK media, btw is unanimously

    a) NOT making the attack the main story
    b) using the usual “suggestio falsi” tactics – “Russia accused of sabotage” is the general theme. Certainly the Daily Mail commenters aren’t having it.

  21. Anon[319] • Disclaimer says:

    I think the truth is going to come out, and if it’s a state actor it will bite them in the ass. It would be a net harm for Ukraine. It seems reckless, pointless, and sleazy. That and the fact that it was a clumsy partial destruction, rather than blowing up all the pipes makes me think it may be some sort of rogue operation: terrorist, oligarch, Arab, eco terror, whatever.

    If the U.S. is assisting in destroying major infrastructure, that is a change in international norms greater than the use of a battlefield tactical nuke in a war would be. Submarine cables, dams, oil tankers and their docking facilities, refineries and chemical factories, shoulder mounted missiles taking down American civilian airliners, the gloves would be off. The U.S. would have to become even more of an armed fortress.

  22. Two things point to Poland:

    1) They say the US did it; and
    2) They just opened a terminal to bring Norwegian gas to their side of the Baltic sea.

    They had US blessings, no doubt.

    Next step, the Polish takeover of Westrrn Ukraine … to prevent it from the evil Russkies.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @The Alarmist

    "They say the US did it;"

    "They" in this case is a former Polish foreign minister who is highly alienated from the current Polish ruling party, despite both being more or less right of center. So unless the current Polish foreign minister starts echoing Sikorski about American culpability, I'd not take Sikorski's comment too seriously.

    Replies: @Dumbo, @Allan, @The Alarmist

    , @cliff arroyo
    @The Alarmist

    Poland has no intention of taking over western Ukraine, that's a russian disinfo talking point with no relation to reality.

    It's hard for supporters of russian imperialism to understand that some countries are just over that very dumb idea....

    Replies: @The Alarmist

  23. @MEH 0910
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    https://twitter.com/gcochran99/status/1574804590116995072

    Replies: @NJ Transit Commuter, @J.Ross, @Hypnotoad666

    Wow, what a colossal buffoon.

    • Agree: Paul Jolliffe
  24. @Altai
    The key thing about NordStream 2 is it's unnecessary from a practical standpoint, it was necessary from a geopolitical stand point, it meant Germany no longer had to deal with the potential for Poland or Ukraine to block or threaten to block the flow of gas.

    Therefore both countries lose transit fees but more importantly they lose political control and leverage.

    Ukraine could not have done this. They do not have the expertise or access to the Baltic sea to sabotage a pipeline 70m under water. Meanwhile we see the breakpoints are all close to the Prussian shore. It was the Poles. The only question is, did the US know or sanction it and if they sanctioned it, help them. Maybe somebody could say Ukraine ordered it or suggested it but the practical action of doing it would have to fall to Poland and they'd have to agree.

    The Poles in particular have been inveighing about NS2 it from the start.

    https://kafkadesk.org/2021/05/21/poland-angered-by-us-president-bidens-nord-stream-ii-decision

    Poland has reacted angrily to President Joe Biden’s decision to waive US sanctions on Nord Stream II, warning the move could threaten energy security across Central and Eastern Europe.

    “The information is definitely not positive from the security point of view, as we know perfectly that Nord Stream II is not only a business project – it is mostly a geopolitical project,” said Piotr Muller, a spokesman for the Polish government.
     

    Now Sikorski posted the clip of Biden suggesting that the US would stop NS2 no matter what Germany had to say about it, ie by force. More damning from a US perspective is this clip of Victoria Nuland, the psychopathic pointwoman neocon on provoking Russia saying it more explicitly.

    https://twitter.com/azmilitary1/status/1574767709258137606

    But Germany has iced NS2, so blatant violent action was unnecessary and escalatory in a way the neocons don't seem to want. (If this was the US it'd be a very serious act of aggression towards Germany and also Denmark who have an environmental catastrophe off Bornholm) They're happy with this being a proxy war and do not want to confront the Russians military directly which things like this increase and without a plausible payoff in terms lengthening the war, Germany was already as hostile and non-cooperative with Russia as it could be and there was no serious talk of getting NS2 up and running.

    Remember, the neocons agenda is to bleed Russia and have it commit military resources there for as long as possible to stop them intervening in Syria or anywhere in the Middle East. And they're getting that with (Free to them) Ukrainian lives and territory, no need to raise the temperature and risk a nuclear war with Russia.

    Sikorski is not currently in the Polish cabinet so we can assume he doesn't really know what happened.

    For example, Tony Blinken made this cryptic statement about what happened which is differently to the usual comment you'd expect for a US denial of US actions. He said if it was sabotage, that it'd be "in no ones interest". IE, the Poles did this on their own and we don't condone it.

    https://twitter.com/kylieatwood/status/1574791417049882626

    This would not be the first time the Poles and the Baltic countries have taken actions to increase the tension and bring things closer to a direct NATO war with Russia. The first big isntance was the promises to give NATO Soviet era aircraft directly to Ukraine which also had the otherwise anti-Russia neocon Blinken running around desperately trying to not have things boil over. Then we had Lithuania causing the crisis by threatening to blockade land supplies to Kaliningrad which had EU leaders desperately try to defuse.

    It could also be, as Steve noted, that Sikorski is trying to heighten tensions by deliberately falsely implicating the US as main party or collaborator.

    That it was a Poles seems even more likely given an anti-Russian narrative has been implied (NYT style with the headline) but not spoken outright and indeed there seems to be some nervousness in the West about it. This is, like all the other rogue escalation attempts by Poland and the Baltics, treated as a serious and not welcome development without the same propaganda coverage.

    Although one other suspect or accomplice raises it's head merely because the UK intel mouthpiece (A role similar to that of the WaPo in the US) The Telegraph did try to blame it on the Russians early on.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/09/27/russian-sabotage-feared-unprecedented-damage-nord-stream-gas

    Though this may have been a result of early reporting which didn't make clear the nature of the 'faults'.

    So we have motive, ability and a modus operandi (Crazy rogue escalatory actions) for Poland and not for anybody else. These kinds of crazy rogue actions are why I keep saying if this does go to a NATO war Poland will be the one who did it.

    With the destruction of NS2 Germany is now hostage to Poland in terms of keeping this state of unpeace with Russia. It can now only be supplied with the industry saving gas from the pipelines through Ukraine and Poland.

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon, @Coemgen, @Pericles, @YetAnotherAnon, @Achmed E. Newman, @BB753, @AnotherDad, @Sam Malone

    What country has a rich recent history of going around the world creating problems for other countries?

    Poland?

    Really?

    Can’t you think of another country that fits the profile just a little better?

    • Replies: @Thelma Ringbaum
    @Coemgen

    Yes, Poland comes to mind allright. Starting WW2 is not a small feat.

  25. @NJ Transit Commuter
    Even if the Ukes did this, they couldn’t have done it without NATO allowing it to happen. So this is still a casus belli between Russia and NATO. The other alternative is that the Russians did it, which is also a potential casus belli between Russian and NATO.

    We are reaching Cuban Missile Crisis territory here, and JRB is no JFK.

    Replies: @MEH 0910, @Peter Akuleyev, @Paul Jolliffe, @Colin Wright

    Even if the Ukes did this, they couldn’t have done it without NATO allowing it to happen.

    Of course they could. This is a shockingly easy stunt to pull off. Could even be some angry Lithuanians with a motorboat, some C4 and some diving gear.

    • LOL: Mike Tre
    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
    @Peter Akuleyev

    You're still surprised at what many Unzers will say is difficult just because they can't do it, or know how it's done?

    , @NJ Transit Commuter
    @Peter Akuleyev

    According to Reuters the leaks occurred at a depth of 80-110 m. I’m no expert on deep sea diving, but I suspect blowing up pipelines at that depth is beyond the capability of Lithuanians in a motorboat with some C4.

    Replies: @Adept, @MGB

    , @PhysicistDave
    @Peter Akuleyev

    Peter Akuleyev wrote to NJ Transit Commuter:


    [NJTC] Even if the Ukes did this, they couldn’t have done it without NATO allowing it to happen.

    [PA] Of course they could. This is a shockingly easy stunt to pull off. Could even be some angry Lithuanians with a motorboat, some C4 and some diving gear.
     
    Why hasn't Kiev taken credit? On the face of it, that would be the main point of a stunt like this.

    On the other hand, if the US Deep State did it (the US, or Poland or one of the Baltics acting with US encouragement), it is clear enough why they did not take credit: this is an act of war and would justify Russia in attacking Poland and the Baltics.

    Occam's razor: It all fits with the US Deep State doing it or facilitating it (and having the sense not to claim credit). But if Kiev did it, there is a mystery as to why they are not taking credit.

    Not proof beyond a reasonable doubt, but clearly the best bet.

    Replies: @Craken

    , @Loyalty Over IQ Worship
    @Peter Akuleyev

    The current Ukrainian regime killed the daughter of Dugin, so they're awful people and are capable of anything. The point is, why are we funding such lunatics? Oh, because the CIA, Nuland and Soros put them in power. Our transgender leadership is using Zelensky.

    However, they wouldn't even be in a war right now if it wasn't for the Usual Suspects. Ukraine would have negotiated peace long ago or perhaps the whole war would have been avoided. USA policy made this happen in the big picture. At the very least.

    , @Fluesterwitz
    @Peter Akuleyev

    Depending on your ideas of 'some' and 'boat'.

    , @Citizen of a Silly Country
    @Peter Akuleyev

    You're ability to lie and keep a straight face is impressive. Practice makes perfect, I guess.

    , @Dumbo
    @Peter Akuleyev

    Look, another "armchair specialist" giving his moronic opinion about things he knows nothing about. Or maybe he's just another CIA troll.

  26. The alternative theory, and more credible, is that the Russians did this as a warning to Poland. The key to the exercise is how easy it was to pull off. Today NordStream, which isn’t delivering anyway, goes down but tomorrow the new Baltic Pipe could go down just as easily.

    If it was Russia, they got the added benefit of Sikorski making a fool of himself.

    • Agree: Peter Lund
    • LOL: YetAnotherAnon, 3g4me
    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    @Peter Akuleyev

    Yes and I'm going to light my uninsured car on fire as a warning to my neighbour that his car might be next.

    Replies: @Jack D

    , @Mr Mox
    @Peter Akuleyev

    Before reading the comments, I decided to take a mental note of which commenters would blame Russia in a predictably Pavlovian way . Their opinions can then safely be ignored in the future...

  27. @Altai
    The key thing about NordStream 2 is it's unnecessary from a practical standpoint, it was necessary from a geopolitical stand point, it meant Germany no longer had to deal with the potential for Poland or Ukraine to block or threaten to block the flow of gas.

    Therefore both countries lose transit fees but more importantly they lose political control and leverage.

    Ukraine could not have done this. They do not have the expertise or access to the Baltic sea to sabotage a pipeline 70m under water. Meanwhile we see the breakpoints are all close to the Prussian shore. It was the Poles. The only question is, did the US know or sanction it and if they sanctioned it, help them. Maybe somebody could say Ukraine ordered it or suggested it but the practical action of doing it would have to fall to Poland and they'd have to agree.

    The Poles in particular have been inveighing about NS2 it from the start.

    https://kafkadesk.org/2021/05/21/poland-angered-by-us-president-bidens-nord-stream-ii-decision

    Poland has reacted angrily to President Joe Biden’s decision to waive US sanctions on Nord Stream II, warning the move could threaten energy security across Central and Eastern Europe.

    “The information is definitely not positive from the security point of view, as we know perfectly that Nord Stream II is not only a business project – it is mostly a geopolitical project,” said Piotr Muller, a spokesman for the Polish government.
     

    Now Sikorski posted the clip of Biden suggesting that the US would stop NS2 no matter what Germany had to say about it, ie by force. More damning from a US perspective is this clip of Victoria Nuland, the psychopathic pointwoman neocon on provoking Russia saying it more explicitly.

    https://twitter.com/azmilitary1/status/1574767709258137606

    But Germany has iced NS2, so blatant violent action was unnecessary and escalatory in a way the neocons don't seem to want. (If this was the US it'd be a very serious act of aggression towards Germany and also Denmark who have an environmental catastrophe off Bornholm) They're happy with this being a proxy war and do not want to confront the Russians military directly which things like this increase and without a plausible payoff in terms lengthening the war, Germany was already as hostile and non-cooperative with Russia as it could be and there was no serious talk of getting NS2 up and running.

    Remember, the neocons agenda is to bleed Russia and have it commit military resources there for as long as possible to stop them intervening in Syria or anywhere in the Middle East. And they're getting that with (Free to them) Ukrainian lives and territory, no need to raise the temperature and risk a nuclear war with Russia.

    Sikorski is not currently in the Polish cabinet so we can assume he doesn't really know what happened.

    For example, Tony Blinken made this cryptic statement about what happened which is differently to the usual comment you'd expect for a US denial of US actions. He said if it was sabotage, that it'd be "in no ones interest". IE, the Poles did this on their own and we don't condone it.

    https://twitter.com/kylieatwood/status/1574791417049882626

    This would not be the first time the Poles and the Baltic countries have taken actions to increase the tension and bring things closer to a direct NATO war with Russia. The first big isntance was the promises to give NATO Soviet era aircraft directly to Ukraine which also had the otherwise anti-Russia neocon Blinken running around desperately trying to not have things boil over. Then we had Lithuania causing the crisis by threatening to blockade land supplies to Kaliningrad which had EU leaders desperately try to defuse.

    It could also be, as Steve noted, that Sikorski is trying to heighten tensions by deliberately falsely implicating the US as main party or collaborator.

    That it was a Poles seems even more likely given an anti-Russian narrative has been implied (NYT style with the headline) but not spoken outright and indeed there seems to be some nervousness in the West about it. This is, like all the other rogue escalation attempts by Poland and the Baltics, treated as a serious and not welcome development without the same propaganda coverage.

    Although one other suspect or accomplice raises it's head merely because the UK intel mouthpiece (A role similar to that of the WaPo in the US) The Telegraph did try to blame it on the Russians early on.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/09/27/russian-sabotage-feared-unprecedented-damage-nord-stream-gas

    Though this may have been a result of early reporting which didn't make clear the nature of the 'faults'.

    So we have motive, ability and a modus operandi (Crazy rogue escalatory actions) for Poland and not for anybody else. These kinds of crazy rogue actions are why I keep saying if this does go to a NATO war Poland will be the one who did it.

    With the destruction of NS2 Germany is now hostage to Poland in terms of keeping this state of unpeace with Russia. It can now only be supplied with the industry saving gas from the pipelines through Ukraine and Poland.

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon, @Coemgen, @Pericles, @YetAnotherAnon, @Achmed E. Newman, @BB753, @AnotherDad, @Sam Malone

    Attacking your big next-door neighbor’s and putative ally’s infrastructure seems a little bit too insane though.

  28. The respectable explanation will be that Russia blew up its own pipelines. All alternatives will be discounted.
    Anyone who promotes those theories or points to that evidence will be Untouchables.

    Maybe this is the one time their Lie Magic fails them but I doubt it. The Narrative bubble only needs to cover key institutions in the West. Everyone else can yap and speculate all they want; Washington, Whitehall and the EU will carry on regardless.

    • Agree: Je Suis Omar Mateen
  29. @Peter Akuleyev
    The alternative theory, and more credible, is that the Russians did this as a warning to Poland. The key to the exercise is how easy it was to pull off. Today NordStream, which isn't delivering anyway, goes down but tomorrow the new Baltic Pipe could go down just as easily.

    If it was Russia, they got the added benefit of Sikorski making a fool of himself.

    Replies: @Cagey Beast, @Mr Mox

    Yes and I’m going to light my uninsured car on fire as a warning to my neighbour that his car might be next.

    • Thanks: YetAnotherAnon, TWS
    • LOL: chris
    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Cagey Beast

    Yes. Because if you light your neighbor's car on fire it's a causus belli and he is going to go to war against you (call the cops). But if you light your own car on fire (and maintain plausible deniability that someone else did it), it's not.

    I can't say that it makes a tremendous amount of sense that Putin blew up his own pipeline, but all indicators (the usual unz.com conspiracy theories aside) point to Russia having done it - they had the means and opportunity. So he must have had his reasons.

    In case you haven't noticed, Putin is now in desperation mode. The Russian Army is a shambles. He is grabbing old men off the street and sending them to the front without training - this is Germany 1945 level desperation. He is going to annex part of Ukraine based upon a sham referendum that NO ONE outside of Russia, even Putin's allies, recognizes. Hundreds of thousands of Russia's best and brightest are getting out of the country any way that they can and are probably never coming back. Domestic protests and even violence are breaking out. It's a royal friggin' mess, no matter how much copium you take.

    Desperate times call for desperate measures. One possibility is that this is Putin's signal to Germany (and to himself) that he has crossed the Rubicon and burned his bridges behind him. There is no making up possible anymore even if the Germans want it. It's never going back to the old way even if the Germans press Ukraine to make a deal. Putin is turning his back on Europe and letting his inner Mongol fly!

    Putin has his back to the corner but he's not ready to throw in the towel (losing this war is for him game, set, match - there is no home for retired dictators). He is going to keep trying whatever he can come up with to keep his opponents off balance. If some of it seems a little crazy, all the better. He has told us that he is "not bluffing" about using nukes either.

    Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic, @BB753, @Citizen of a Silly Country, @HA, @Bardon Kaldian

  30. “Then we had Lithuania causing the crisis by threatening to blockade land supplies to Kaliningrad which had EU leaders desperately try to defuse.”

    Imagine thinking Lithuania causing a crisis.

    That’d mean you’d actually take Russia’s propaganda seriously.

    Imagine being so gullible. Just imagine.

    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    @Maciano

    Yes imagine having the ability to dispassionately stand back and see Russia isn't the only party who can escalate tensions. Imagine how weird that would feel.

  31. @Peter Akuleyev
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    Even if the Ukes did this, they couldn’t have done it without NATO allowing it to happen.

    Of course they could. This is a shockingly easy stunt to pull off. Could even be some angry Lithuanians with a motorboat, some C4 and some diving gear.

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @NJ Transit Commuter, @PhysicistDave, @Loyalty Over IQ Worship, @Fluesterwitz, @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Dumbo

    You’re still surprised at what many Unzers will say is difficult just because they can’t do it, or know how it’s done?

  32. One of these theories might be correct, but I find none of them very convincing. My own unconvincing theory is that it was Mr Putin.

    I don’t understand why, but when he reduced the gas to Europe earlier this year, the Russians didn’t say it’s because of your sanctions or your support of Ukraine, but blamed it on a technical issue with the pipeline. For all I know, it could have been, but doubting coincidences is natural. If that wasn’t a technical issue, it shows that Mr Putin likes to avoid publicly acknowledging his aggressions where possible, as though he’s sensitive about what people think of him. If it gets really unpleasant in Europe this winter he’ll have plausible deniability.

    Also, blowing up a pipeline is a bit Bond-villany, and he has form for being Bond-villany with Novichok, Polonium etc. poisonings.

    Russia also seems to interested in undersea data cables. https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2017/12/15/russias-naval-updates-threaten-undersea-comms-network-says-top-british-military-officer/

    In 2015, U.S. media reported intelligence and military officials saying Russian ships and submarines were aggressively operating near undersea cables in the Atlantic and elsewhere.

    However, this is not entirely a one-sided affair. The Russian activity echoes an operation mounted by the U.S. Navy in the 1970s when an especially adapted nuclear submarine, USN Halibut, for months tapped Soviet communications cables laying in the Sea of Okhotsk, north of Japan.

  33. @Maciano
    "Then we had Lithuania causing the crisis by threatening to blockade land supplies to Kaliningrad which had EU leaders desperately try to defuse."

    Imagine thinking Lithuania causing a crisis.

    That'd mean you'd actually take Russia's propaganda seriously.

    Imagine being so gullible. Just imagine.

    Replies: @Cagey Beast

    Yes imagine having the ability to dispassionately stand back and see Russia isn’t the only party who can escalate tensions. Imagine how weird that would feel.

  34. People were speculating about this 5 minutes after the attack. This is hardly some gee whiz theory.

    The point is, the USA would have known about it. And NATO has been giving intelligence support to every other attack on Russia, so ….

    Anyway, Greg Cochran blew his credibility with his insane Covid rantings.

    • Replies: @TWS
    @Loyalty Over IQ Worship

    Lots of guys went off the deep end about covid and have never said, 'I was wrong.'

    , @Mr. Anon
    @Loyalty Over IQ Worship


    Anyway, Greg Cochran blew his credibility with his insane Covid rantings.
     
    A lot of people who staked their claim as being contrarians damaged thier credibility by uncritically falling for the establishment COVID narrative. Steve was one of them too.

    I think perhaps there is some truth to the generational angle. Boomers especially still see their country with this rosy glow and can't ever imagine that we might be "the bad guys". Even boomers who marched against the Vietnam war. Even those ones who have assimilated the new establishment narrative that America was built on nothing but slavery, hatred, racism, and every kind of injustice, still won't entertain the idea that our government might proceed from malign purposes.

    As for commenter Jack D - well, he'll always have Russia.
  35. @The Alarmist
    Two things point to Poland:

    1) They say the US did it; and
    2) They just opened a terminal to bring Norwegian gas to their side of the Baltic sea.

    They had US blessings, no doubt.

    Next step, the Polish takeover of Westrrn Ukraine ... to prevent it from the evil Russkies.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @cliff arroyo

    “They say the US did it;”

    “They” in this case is a former Polish foreign minister who is highly alienated from the current Polish ruling party, despite both being more or less right of center. So unless the current Polish foreign minister starts echoing Sikorski about American culpability, I’d not take Sikorski’s comment too seriously.

    • Agree: Not Raul
    • Replies: @Dumbo
    @Steve Sailer

    LOL. An ex-foreign minister, and someone who is married to "Russia specialist" Anne "Deep State" Applebaum. Sure, he doesn't know what's going on and he should be taken seriously... Hey everybody, it's just the "Not So Great Reset", move on, nothing to see here.

    , @Allan
    @Steve Sailer

    Do you understand that "Radek" Sikorsky had a motive to ingratiate hisself with the ruling cabal of Poland? He obtains grace, and the Polock establishment obtains a diversion aimed at the most obvious suspect, which was already out on a limb with public statements threatening, in effect, sabotage or other action against the pipeline or its operators (Nord Stream AG) and partners (Gazprom, Gasunie, Engie, etc.). His Judeo-American wife may not object much, for she's a neocon with Polish citizenship.

    Now let's think about the Polocks' motives. Their "personal motivation to hurt the Russians" has been made public again during the SMO to thwart Natoland's aggression against Russian Ukrainians. Polish soldiers are fighting in Ukraine. Damaged Ukrainian equipment is sent to Poland for repairs. The Polish government announced this past summer some sort of cco-citizenship arrangement of the two states. And so on.

    Second, there is a micro-imperialist affair called the Three Seas Initiative. It was "launched in 2015 by Polish President Andrzej Duda and Croatian President Kolinda Grabar-Kitarović" (Wikipedia). It's evident that some silly folks on the Baltic have been fantasizing about restoring the greatness which they think that they had during the Middle Ages. (Jews were often in control and had their own state within a state, too.) Americans like Israel-lover Mike Pompeo have taken a keen interest in 3Seas. While he was SoS, he pledged up to $1B to the Three Seas Initiative Investment Fund, though I don't know if the money was ever disbursed.

    Of course, the Three Seas Initiative has interests including... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Seas_Initiative#Projects

    Hurting Russia a little more and advancing crass commercial interests are probably not enough to motivate Polish sabotage of NS 1 & 2, so think about the geographic situation again from the Polish perspective. Imagine a scenario in which the Germans come to their senses, make peace with Russland, and beome genuine friends of Russia. This is in their long term interest, and the benefits to them are nothing less than national survival. Such peace and friendship, however, leads to NATO being evicted from Satrapy Doitchland, and eventually to Germany's exit from the EU. One result is that Poland finds itself positioned between two allies of Russia and a little piece of Russia called Kaliningrad.

    That just can't be tolerated if you are a Russophobic Polish imperialist with fantasies of ruling eastern Europe. How will the Poles contain Russia with Germany as Russia's friend? What would happen to their 3Seas thingy under these conditions? Some neverous people in Poland might just say, ' "Fuck the EU" and the USA, too. Let's form some sort of confederation with Germany and Russia to avoid another horrifying war and get the Anglo-American mafia off our backs and off our turf.' This would undermine recidivist Polish imperialism. However, by sabotaging NS, or helping America to do so, Poland obtains instead a crippled Germany with no urgency to make peace with Russia and fading prospects for suvival after a predictable exodus of brains sure to follow Germany's likely industrial collapse.

    Now, we all know that (1) the USA controls the foreign policy of EU and NATO countries and (2) the foreign policy of the USA is subject to enormous influence and pressure from Tsionists and Tsion itself. Since you're obsessed with Ukraine, which has been a satrapy of American and Tsionist interests since 2014, we can close the circle by noting that the same alien supremacists have left their fingerprints all over the recent history of Ukraine. There's lots of evidence there. A wannabe mover and shaker of Tsionism, Ihor Kolomoisky, financed the elevation of the actor into the presidency, and supremacist folks like the ADL have been suspiciously sympathetic to Ukronazis, whom I regard as just useful thugs even if they do have Zelensky running scared of them. If you expect people to believe that the helpless Ukrainians (with scant naval resources and no direct access to the Baltic) were the perps, you need to fit that into the regional political framework which I've just described. They have been pawns all along.

    Poland will pay for its teachery, just as it paid for its brutality of the 1920's and 1930's. Tsion will rub its hands with glee upon another great war spreading throughout Europe according to its own designs.

    , @The Alarmist
    @Steve Sailer

    This analysis from Larry Johnson adds a little context:



    Makes you wonder if there was some wheeling and dealing was going on between Washington and Warsaw. Given Warsaw’s critical location and role in ensuring U.S. and NATO military supplies is delivered to Ukraine, the Poles have a bit of leverage to push the United States to take out the pipelines or to help Poland take out the pipelines. Poland’s message to the United States was simple–reverse course on Nordstream and rupture the pipelines or you can find another way to move your military supplies to Ukraine.

    source: https://sonar21.com/what-a-coincidence/

     

  36. Probably a bridge too far, but the 2010 plane crash the took the life of the Polish president, his wife and several top military and religious leaders on their way to commemorate the Katyn massacre is apparently still a controversial and unresolved issue.

    In a Guardian article written 6 years after the crash interesting details emerge which mention all of the things presently in play in the Ukraine. For the record, Putin attended the president’s funeral.

    I wonder if the Pollacks have the Chechen concept of revenge.

    Cheers-

    • Replies: @TWS
    @Timur The Lame

    I only know a few Poles, but they all dislike Russians.

    , @cliff arroyo
    @Timur The Lame

    Not really, there was recently a story in Poland pointing out the official "investigation" simply elminated any analysis (including those that they paid for) that said it was an accident (and that was most of them).

    I have no doubt putain _would_ have crashed the plane if he could and thought he had a reason to, but russians are bumblers and they couldn't have kept it covered up... it would have been very obvious to even a casual observer, like Katyń.

    Replies: @Anonymous

  37. @Altai
    The key thing about NordStream 2 is it's unnecessary from a practical standpoint, it was necessary from a geopolitical stand point, it meant Germany no longer had to deal with the potential for Poland or Ukraine to block or threaten to block the flow of gas.

    Therefore both countries lose transit fees but more importantly they lose political control and leverage.

    Ukraine could not have done this. They do not have the expertise or access to the Baltic sea to sabotage a pipeline 70m under water. Meanwhile we see the breakpoints are all close to the Prussian shore. It was the Poles. The only question is, did the US know or sanction it and if they sanctioned it, help them. Maybe somebody could say Ukraine ordered it or suggested it but the practical action of doing it would have to fall to Poland and they'd have to agree.

    The Poles in particular have been inveighing about NS2 it from the start.

    https://kafkadesk.org/2021/05/21/poland-angered-by-us-president-bidens-nord-stream-ii-decision

    Poland has reacted angrily to President Joe Biden’s decision to waive US sanctions on Nord Stream II, warning the move could threaten energy security across Central and Eastern Europe.

    “The information is definitely not positive from the security point of view, as we know perfectly that Nord Stream II is not only a business project – it is mostly a geopolitical project,” said Piotr Muller, a spokesman for the Polish government.
     

    Now Sikorski posted the clip of Biden suggesting that the US would stop NS2 no matter what Germany had to say about it, ie by force. More damning from a US perspective is this clip of Victoria Nuland, the psychopathic pointwoman neocon on provoking Russia saying it more explicitly.

    https://twitter.com/azmilitary1/status/1574767709258137606

    But Germany has iced NS2, so blatant violent action was unnecessary and escalatory in a way the neocons don't seem to want. (If this was the US it'd be a very serious act of aggression towards Germany and also Denmark who have an environmental catastrophe off Bornholm) They're happy with this being a proxy war and do not want to confront the Russians military directly which things like this increase and without a plausible payoff in terms lengthening the war, Germany was already as hostile and non-cooperative with Russia as it could be and there was no serious talk of getting NS2 up and running.

    Remember, the neocons agenda is to bleed Russia and have it commit military resources there for as long as possible to stop them intervening in Syria or anywhere in the Middle East. And they're getting that with (Free to them) Ukrainian lives and territory, no need to raise the temperature and risk a nuclear war with Russia.

    Sikorski is not currently in the Polish cabinet so we can assume he doesn't really know what happened.

    For example, Tony Blinken made this cryptic statement about what happened which is differently to the usual comment you'd expect for a US denial of US actions. He said if it was sabotage, that it'd be "in no ones interest". IE, the Poles did this on their own and we don't condone it.

    https://twitter.com/kylieatwood/status/1574791417049882626

    This would not be the first time the Poles and the Baltic countries have taken actions to increase the tension and bring things closer to a direct NATO war with Russia. The first big isntance was the promises to give NATO Soviet era aircraft directly to Ukraine which also had the otherwise anti-Russia neocon Blinken running around desperately trying to not have things boil over. Then we had Lithuania causing the crisis by threatening to blockade land supplies to Kaliningrad which had EU leaders desperately try to defuse.

    It could also be, as Steve noted, that Sikorski is trying to heighten tensions by deliberately falsely implicating the US as main party or collaborator.

    That it was a Poles seems even more likely given an anti-Russian narrative has been implied (NYT style with the headline) but not spoken outright and indeed there seems to be some nervousness in the West about it. This is, like all the other rogue escalation attempts by Poland and the Baltics, treated as a serious and not welcome development without the same propaganda coverage.

    Although one other suspect or accomplice raises it's head merely because the UK intel mouthpiece (A role similar to that of the WaPo in the US) The Telegraph did try to blame it on the Russians early on.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/09/27/russian-sabotage-feared-unprecedented-damage-nord-stream-gas

    Though this may have been a result of early reporting which didn't make clear the nature of the 'faults'.

    So we have motive, ability and a modus operandi (Crazy rogue escalatory actions) for Poland and not for anybody else. These kinds of crazy rogue actions are why I keep saying if this does go to a NATO war Poland will be the one who did it.

    With the destruction of NS2 Germany is now hostage to Poland in terms of keeping this state of unpeace with Russia. It can now only be supplied with the industry saving gas from the pipelines through Ukraine and Poland.

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon, @Coemgen, @Pericles, @YetAnotherAnon, @Achmed E. Newman, @BB753, @AnotherDad, @Sam Malone

    “It was the Poles. ”

    Not the people whose fleet were in the area and whose helicopters were flying along the pipeline track on September 2?

    https://www.republicworld.com/world-news/us-news/us-helicopters-fly-above-sites-of-nord-stream-blasts-leak-as-europe-suspects-sabotage-articleshow.html

    He detailed that the helicopters were spotted on September 2 and may have taken off from the USS Kearsarge (LHD-3), the third Wasp-class amphibious assault ship of the United States Navy. Makarov was discussing the “probable method” of sabotage at Nord Stream pipelines.

    (I must say taking advice from Greg Cochran, interesting guy but a real blowhard on things he has little knowlege of, is like asking Russia’s Shoigu for his ideas on genetics.

    “USA has made repeated threats against Nord Stream 2.
    Videos up on YouTube showing both Biden and Nuland recently threatening NS2 plus many, many videos where US politicians claiming NS2 should be shut down for years.
    So US had the political motive, the military means, will benefit financially and SAID they would destroy it.
    Then, a high ranking Polish official friendly with US regime publicly thanks US for destroying it.
    At this point, why is there even a discussion about who did it?”

    )

    • Thanks: Matthew Kelly
    • Replies: @beavertales
    @YetAnotherAnon

    A diving platform anchored in that area would not have gone unnoticed, so a support ship would have to mask it's purpose by appearing to do something else.

    A Remotely Operated Vehicle or highly trained divers could have been launched from the USS Kearsarge, but that would mean ordinary crew would have to be trusted to absolute secrecy.

  38. Is this Cochran guy still relevant? Was so wrong about Covid, cannot trust him anymore. I liked him once, but his hybris is his ruin.

    • Replies: @Loyalty Over IQ Worship
    @RealnessRealWar

    Cochran had a lousy style of argument about Covid. He used the same emotional blackmail approach the media did. Suggesting that if you questioned the Narrative you were killing your grandpa.

    Two weeks of "temporary" lockdowns turned into two years. And we still haven't returned to normal. Old people forced to die along, supply chains messed up, trillions wasted and now raging inflation.

    Heck of a job.

    , @Anonymous
    @RealnessRealWar

    You are the second or third person to say this, which I find strange because he wasn't wrong.

  39. For Ukrainians to have done it, they would have had to have been transported from Ukraine to Denmark (or other nearby place), and then armed and equipped (and maybe even trained) for the job, by the Americans (not to mention where the ‘1 million dollars’ you mention would have to come from). There is 0% chance they could have done it independently (the area is already teeming with US warships, for instance).

    It’s possible that could have happened, but a bit of a long winded way of doing what the US army (or Brits, who are just an appendix to the american army now anyway) could do themselves already. And have more than enough reasons to do, and even said they would do.

    So no, it doesn’t really make sense to say it was them and not the Americans (even in the above scenario, it’s just the US using a couple of Ukes to do the dirty part of its own operation).

  40. The EU statement is on Zerohedge; https://www.zerohedge.com/commodities/damage-nord-stream-pipelines-unprecedented-may-have-been-sabotaged , as Sailer’s well informed readers probably are aware.

    Biden famously said the US would end the pipeline.

    The Poles seem to be blaming the US.

    Is it considered an act of War to destroy a gas pipeline under the current circumstances? Will NATO blame Russia? Who will Germany blame?

    What will the narrative be?

    • Thanks: PhysicistDave
    • Replies: @Thelma Ringbaum
    @botazefa

    To not make it act of War, all parties involved will keep quiet (or blame Putin for he is a scapegoat now) . But covert retaliations are likely, and scary: the world can slip into an undeclared terrorist war.

    Replies: @botazefa

    , @Fluesterwitz
    @botazefa


    Who will Germany blame?
     
    The Russians. Who else?

    Replies: @botazefa

  41. Yes, reducing German optionality is the likely motive.

    But the CIA says they warned Germany about an attack on the pipelines a few weeks ago, which isn’t an easy thing to have done if they didn’t know. Of course, they could be lying now, but why would they do that?

    https://www.businessinsider.com/cia-warned-germany-attacks-nord-stream-pipelines-leak-sabotage-report-2022-9

    And it isn’t hard to find the Biden and Nuland vids, which are clearly (weak) evidence in favor of U.S. involvement. All in all, I don’t think it’s obvious the U.S. didn’t know or would have said no.

    On the other hand, the attack occurred on the same day a new pipeline opened up, so it’s possible it had more to do with the natural gas business than the war in Ukraine. Tough to say.

  42. @Peter Akuleyev
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    Even if the Ukes did this, they couldn’t have done it without NATO allowing it to happen.

    Of course they could. This is a shockingly easy stunt to pull off. Could even be some angry Lithuanians with a motorboat, some C4 and some diving gear.

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @NJ Transit Commuter, @PhysicistDave, @Loyalty Over IQ Worship, @Fluesterwitz, @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Dumbo

    According to Reuters the leaks occurred at a depth of 80-110 m. I’m no expert on deep sea diving, but I suspect blowing up pipelines at that depth is beyond the capability of Lithuanians in a motorboat with some C4.

    • Replies: @Adept
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    Diving to a 40m depth is beginner-tier -- "my first PADI diving course" level -- and, even from that depth, munitions can be dropped onto a pipeline 80m deep. This would require very little in the way of skill.

    Dives to 110m are trivial for trained professionals with appropriate equipment.

    The depth of the pipeline makes it more likely, not less likely, to be simple sabotage.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    , @MGB
    @NJ Transit Commuter


    I suspect blowing up pipelines at that depth is beyond the capability of Lithuanians in a motorboat with some C4
     
    .

    and look at the pipeline itself. tons of steel and poured concrete per length. by the looks of it, you could drive a tractor trailer full bore at a section of the pipe and it would withstand it. this is a high tech operation, not some guy in a wet suit and a hand grenade.
  43. @Pericles
    So what were the supposed Ukrainian logistics in order to accomplish this? In fully deniable secrecy, of course. Please describe the details. Night train to Warsaw, drag the equipment and munitions to Gdansk train, rent fishing boat in Gdansk, ...

    If we take this flight of fancy somewhat seriously, I suppose that means Denmark or perhaps Germany could invoke uhhh clause 5 or whatever to marshal the full might of NATO against Ukrainian aggression. One for all and all for one.

    Replies: @PhysicistDave, @Thelma Ringbaum, @Ron Unz, @AnotherDad

    Pericles wrote:

    If we take this flight of fancy somewhat seriously, I suppose that means Denmark or perhaps Germany could invoke uhhh clause 5 or whatever to marshal the full might of NATO against Ukrainian aggression. One for all and all for one.

    Since the explosions seem to have occurred in both Swedish and Danish waters, they are technically acts of war against both Sweden and Denmark.

    The question I keep pressing is: why has no one claimed credit?

    It would seem to be a real morale-booster for Zelensky, and I don’t think he is too worried about “retaliation”: Russia is already hitting him hard and likely to hit a lot harder in any case after the Donbass accedes to membership in the Russian Federation at the end of the week.

    Although I do wonder if Putin will announce that the Kremlin knows that Zelensky did it, so that Putin can rally his country around an escalation.

    Now, if NATO did it… it is easy to see why they are not taking credit — it is, after all, an act of war.

    Could Poland have done it? They are damn fools if they did, and it is hard to imagine them doing it without US backing. Then, again, prudence has not always been a major Polish character trait…

    • Replies: @Pericles
    @PhysicistDave

    It seems to me by far most likely that US-UK did it, but using Polish cutouts would be the extra insane option.

    Blowing up an ally like that would of course be an enormous scandal if confirmed. Difficult to say where the repercussions would end. I'm expecting Scholz et al are sweating bullets by now.

    , @Chrisnonymous
    @PhysicistDave


    Could Poland have done it? They are damn fools if they did, and it is hard to imagine them doing it without US backing. Then, again, prudence has not always been a major Polish character trait…
     
    So, I wonder if Sikorski's Tweet context is like this:

    Polish govt: dear USA, you must stop Nordstream
    USG: dear Poland, no for reasons
    Poles: yes
    US: no
    Poles: [blow up pipeline]
    Sikorski: "Thanks, USA" (ie, nya, nya, in your face)

    It's possible, but I think the US is the most likely culprit. There are multiple benefits, one of which is that the pointlessness of lifting sanctions in the face of the pipeline being down removes the sanctions as a focus of political discontent among European voters.

    The only motive I can see for the Russians is a final decision to completely decouple from the West, but this would be a brash move. In addition to the fact that being caught could lead to a NATO interpretation of attack, even if that decision has been made, in the short term, dangling the gas delivery is helpful on the political front of the war. Then again, it could be a sign of disagreement within Russia--as in, one faction wants to settle with the west and try to crawl back to 2021 relations, so the other faction is like, hell if that's gonna happen! But really I think the USA most likely.
    , @Philip Neal
    @PhysicistDave

    Yes. The sabotage took place between Sweden (EU but not Nato) and the Danish (Nato, EU, but not the Eurozone) island of Bornholm, a listening post since the Cold War.

    This report from the BBC deserves parsing.

    Headline: Nord Stream leak: West shores up pipeline security, blaming Russia 'sabotage'.

    Picture and caption: A Danish navy vessel on the island of Bornholm, near where the leaks occurred.

    Lede: European countries say they will ramp up security around oil and gas installations after the suspected sabotage of two major pipelines.

    Story: Danish Energy Minister said... European Commission head has promised... Nato Secretary General said... The prime minister of Norway (Nato but not EU) said...

    Note this bit.


    In the aftermath of the alleged attacks, Norway - now Europe's largest gas supplier - has decided to deploy its military to protect crucial infrastructure.

    Prime Minister Jonas Gahr Stoere told a news conference that the military would be "more visible" at oil and gas installations.

    Any attack would be handled jointly with allies, he said.

     

    And this.

    And in the US, White House National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan said the country would continue its work to safeguard Europe's energy security.

     

    Radek Sikorski left Communist Poland in the martial law period of the early 1980s to study at Oxford. I would not want to make too much of his membership of the absurd, restaurant-trashing Bullingdon Club (a network like that is only as important as its current membership) but he came from nowhere and you do not get into it unless you have money and connections. His primary loyalty is to the European Union and certainly not to the current government of Poland.

    The role of the European Union has been much neglected in connection with all this. Can it be that the concealed motive of the attack on Nord Stream (and possibly with previous Ukrainian crises) is to force semi-detached European states into ever closer union with the EU?
  44. @The Alarmist
    Two things point to Poland:

    1) They say the US did it; and
    2) They just opened a terminal to bring Norwegian gas to their side of the Baltic sea.

    They had US blessings, no doubt.

    Next step, the Polish takeover of Westrrn Ukraine ... to prevent it from the evil Russkies.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @cliff arroyo

    Poland has no intention of taking over western Ukraine, that’s a russian disinfo talking point with no relation to reality.

    It’s hard for supporters of russian imperialism to understand that some countries are just over that very dumb idea….

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    @cliff arroyo

    I’m sure I’ll remember this when the Polish flag is flying over the Reichstag.

  45. @RealnessRealWar
    Is this Cochran guy still relevant? Was so wrong about Covid, cannot trust him anymore. I liked him once, but his hybris is his ruin.

    Replies: @Loyalty Over IQ Worship, @Anonymous

    Cochran had a lousy style of argument about Covid. He used the same emotional blackmail approach the media did. Suggesting that if you questioned the Narrative you were killing your grandpa.

    Two weeks of “temporary” lockdowns turned into two years. And we still haven’t returned to normal. Old people forced to die along, supply chains messed up, trillions wasted and now raging inflation.

    Heck of a job.

  46. This seems pretty prescient, from February 11

    https://www.unz.com/mwhitney/the-crisis-in-ukraine-is-not-about-ukraine-its-about-germany/

    The Ukrainian crisis has nothing to do with Ukraine. It’s about Germany and, in particular, a pipeline that connects Germany to Russia called Nord Stream 2. Washington sees the pipeline as a threat to its primacy in Europe and has tried to sabotage the project at every turn. Even so, Nord Stream has pushed ahead and is now fully-operational and ready-to-go. Once German regulators provide the final certification, the gas deliveries will begin. German homeowners and businesses will have a reliable source of clean and inexpensive energy while Russia will see a significant boost to their gas revenues. It’s a win-win situation for both parties.

    The US Foreign Policy establishment is not happy about these developments. They don’t want Germany to become more dependent on Russian gas because commerce builds trust and trust leads to the expansion of trade. As relations grow warmer, more trade barriers are lifted, regulations are eased, travel and tourism increase, and a new security architecture evolves. In a world where Germany and Russia are friends and trading partners, there is no need for US military bases, no need for expensive US-made weapons and missile systems, and no need for NATO. There’s also no need to transact energy deals in US Dollars or to stockpile US Treasuries to balance accounts. Transactions between business partners can be conducted in their own currencies which is bound to precipitate a sharp decline in the value of the dollar and a dramatic shift in economic power.

    This is why the Biden administration opposes Nord Stream. It’s not just a pipeline, it’s a window into the future; a future in which Europe and Asia are drawn closer together into a massive free trade zone that increases their mutual power and prosperity while leaving the US on the outside looking in. Warmer relations between Germany and Russia signal an end to the “unipolar” world order the US has overseen for the last 75 years. A German-Russo alliance threatens to hasten the decline of the Superpower that is presently inching closer to the abyss. This is why Washington is determined to do everything it can to sabotage Nord Stream and keep Germany within its orbit. It’s a matter of survival.

    PDave – if NATO did it, I don’t think they bothered telling several NATO members. Almost certainly US or (possibly) UK job with US in driving seat.

    • Agree: botazefa
  47. @Peter Akuleyev
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    Even if the Ukes did this, they couldn’t have done it without NATO allowing it to happen.

    Of course they could. This is a shockingly easy stunt to pull off. Could even be some angry Lithuanians with a motorboat, some C4 and some diving gear.

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @NJ Transit Commuter, @PhysicistDave, @Loyalty Over IQ Worship, @Fluesterwitz, @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Dumbo

    Peter Akuleyev wrote to NJ Transit Commuter:

    [NJTC] Even if the Ukes did this, they couldn’t have done it without NATO allowing it to happen.

    [PA] Of course they could. This is a shockingly easy stunt to pull off. Could even be some angry Lithuanians with a motorboat, some C4 and some diving gear.

    Why hasn’t Kiev taken credit? On the face of it, that would be the main point of a stunt like this.

    On the other hand, if the US Deep State did it (the US, or Poland or one of the Baltics acting with US encouragement), it is clear enough why they did not take credit: this is an act of war and would justify Russia in attacking Poland and the Baltics.

    Occam’s razor: It all fits with the US Deep State doing it or facilitating it (and having the sense not to claim credit). But if Kiev did it, there is a mystery as to why they are not taking credit.

    Not proof beyond a reasonable doubt, but clearly the best bet.

    • Replies: @Craken
    @PhysicistDave

    I don't think Kiev's silence is much of a mystery if it is behind the sabotage. It might wish to remain silent about its achievement because this attack would give the Russians a good excuse to escalate. The Russians, as you know, have far more escalation options than the Ukrainians. And the Russians are currently losing the war.

    Replies: @PhysicistDave

  48. Cochran’s argument is logical. The main doubt arises from the lack of logical ability within various possibly culpable regimes. The Biden regime cannot be counted on for this quality. But, then, neither can the Russian, Ukrainian, British regimes–maybe the Poles and the Balts have become a little insane as well.

    At the technical level, the operation is not difficult, especially for those nations which–like Ukraine–have experience with oil exploration in the ocean. The fact that the explosives detonated near in time to each other indicates that the perpetrator did not attempt to conceal the fact that it was sabotage and not an accident. Had the concerned parties wished to do a coverup (perhaps to reduce tensions), they were thus preempted. Since timers may have been used on the explosives, finding the perpetrator is not so simple as determining which ships were in proximity to the pipelines just before the events. If competently executed, the perpetrators may never be known with certainty. The only element that would have made this challenging for a private organization to accomplish: the need for explosives. How much did this incident move the markets? What profit the leveraged insider? Why not a psychopathic financier? In the end, Ukraine is the most likely saboteur simply because it is the most motivated, the opportunity being available to any state actor. However, unlike Cochran, I would not entirely dismiss the US and others as possibilities.

  49. @Peter Akuleyev
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    Even if the Ukes did this, they couldn’t have done it without NATO allowing it to happen.

    Of course they could. This is a shockingly easy stunt to pull off. Could even be some angry Lithuanians with a motorboat, some C4 and some diving gear.

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @NJ Transit Commuter, @PhysicistDave, @Loyalty Over IQ Worship, @Fluesterwitz, @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Dumbo

    The current Ukrainian regime killed the daughter of Dugin, so they’re awful people and are capable of anything. The point is, why are we funding such lunatics? Oh, because the CIA, Nuland and Soros put them in power. Our transgender leadership is using Zelensky.

    However, they wouldn’t even be in a war right now if it wasn’t for the Usual Suspects. Ukraine would have negotiated peace long ago or perhaps the whole war would have been avoided. USA policy made this happen in the big picture. At the very least.

  50. @PhysicistDave
    @Peter Akuleyev

    Peter Akuleyev wrote to NJ Transit Commuter:


    [NJTC] Even if the Ukes did this, they couldn’t have done it without NATO allowing it to happen.

    [PA] Of course they could. This is a shockingly easy stunt to pull off. Could even be some angry Lithuanians with a motorboat, some C4 and some diving gear.
     
    Why hasn't Kiev taken credit? On the face of it, that would be the main point of a stunt like this.

    On the other hand, if the US Deep State did it (the US, or Poland or one of the Baltics acting with US encouragement), it is clear enough why they did not take credit: this is an act of war and would justify Russia in attacking Poland and the Baltics.

    Occam's razor: It all fits with the US Deep State doing it or facilitating it (and having the sense not to claim credit). But if Kiev did it, there is a mystery as to why they are not taking credit.

    Not proof beyond a reasonable doubt, but clearly the best bet.

    Replies: @Craken

    I don’t think Kiev’s silence is much of a mystery if it is behind the sabotage. It might wish to remain silent about its achievement because this attack would give the Russians a good excuse to escalate. The Russians, as you know, have far more escalation options than the Ukrainians. And the Russians are currently losing the war.

    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
    @Craken

    Craken wrote to me:


    And the Russians are currently losing the war.
     
    Hmm... I suppose that if I were insane enough to get into the ring with Mike Tyson, and Tyson took a step backwards, I could claim that, for that instant, Tyson was losing the fight.

    But we all know how it would turn out.

    As I keep emphasizing, you win a war by creating a situation in which the other side is either unable or unwilling to continue fighting.

    And the referendum in the Donbass over the last few days is Putin's commitment that he does not intend to stop fighting: shortly, Putin is going to tell Kiev to remove its troops from (new) Russian territory or face massive retaliation.

    Kiev's only hope was to convince Moscow that it was just not worth it. But now Moscow will be defending Russian territory.

    Russia is Mike Tyson. Ukraine is an idiot who got in the ring with Tyson.

    Tyson is not losing.

    Replies: @BB753

  51. It may be that the US Navy did the reconnaissance this summer, passed that data to their NATO partners and then Poland helped NATO trained Ukrainian divers actually place the explosives. A part of permanent Washington would have given its blessing and for that Sikorski thanked them. He and his lovely wife may well have been in the loop at some stage of this caper.

  52. If the Ukrainians did it, the U.S. probably delivered the hardware necessary for them to do it.

  53. This is a parody that’s actually funny: real video, fake subtitles:

  54. @YetAnotherAnon
    @Altai


    "It was the Poles. "
     
    Not the people whose fleet were in the area and whose helicopters were flying along the pipeline track on September 2?

    https://www.republicworld.com/world-news/us-news/us-helicopters-fly-above-sites-of-nord-stream-blasts-leak-as-europe-suspects-sabotage-articleshow.html


    He detailed that the helicopters were spotted on September 2 and may have taken off from the USS Kearsarge (LHD-3), the third Wasp-class amphibious assault ship of the United States Navy. Makarov was discussing the "probable method" of sabotage at Nord Stream pipelines.
     
    https://img.republicworld.com/republic-prod/stories/images/1664319977633381e982af9.png


    (I must say taking advice from Greg Cochran, interesting guy but a real blowhard on things he has little knowlege of, is like asking Russia's Shoigu for his ideas on genetics.


    "USA has made repeated threats against Nord Stream 2.
    Videos up on YouTube showing both Biden and Nuland recently threatening NS2 plus many, many videos where US politicians claiming NS2 should be shut down for years.
    So US had the political motive, the military means, will benefit financially and SAID they would destroy it.
    Then, a high ranking Polish official friendly with US regime publicly thanks US for destroying it.
    At this point, why is there even a discussion about who did it?"
     
    )

    Replies: @beavertales

    A diving platform anchored in that area would not have gone unnoticed, so a support ship would have to mask it’s purpose by appearing to do something else.

    A Remotely Operated Vehicle or highly trained divers could have been launched from the USS Kearsarge, but that would mean ordinary crew would have to be trusted to absolute secrecy.

  55. @PhysicistDave
    @Pericles

    Pericles wrote:


    If we take this flight of fancy somewhat seriously, I suppose that means Denmark or perhaps Germany could invoke uhhh clause 5 or whatever to marshal the full might of NATO against Ukrainian aggression. One for all and all for one.
     
    Since the explosions seem to have occurred in both Swedish and Danish waters, they are technically acts of war against both Sweden and Denmark.

    The question I keep pressing is: why has no one claimed credit?

    It would seem to be a real morale-booster for Zelensky, and I don't think he is too worried about "retaliation": Russia is already hitting him hard and likely to hit a lot harder in any case after the Donbass accedes to membership in the Russian Federation at the end of the week.

    Although I do wonder if Putin will announce that the Kremlin knows that Zelensky did it, so that Putin can rally his country around an escalation.

    Now, if NATO did it... it is easy to see why they are not taking credit -- it is, after all, an act of war.

    Could Poland have done it? They are damn fools if they did, and it is hard to imagine them doing it without US backing. Then, again, prudence has not always been a major Polish character trait...

    Replies: @Pericles, @Chrisnonymous, @Philip Neal

    It seems to me by far most likely that US-UK did it, but using Polish cutouts would be the extra insane option.

    Blowing up an ally like that would of course be an enormous scandal if confirmed. Difficult to say where the repercussions would end. I’m expecting Scholz et al are sweating bullets by now.

  56. I’ve done a little diving, and it occurs to me that diving to 200 feet, finding a pipeline and setting explosives is a pretty sophisticated trick. An even harder trick considering it’s in the middle of a busy shipping lane in shit weather and zero visibility and you can’t be detected so you can’t just park a boat overhead while your divers muck about. Right? Submarine?

  57. Maybe it’s payback for all the US food factories that the Russians have been sabotaging lately.

  58. Anonymous[370] • Disclaimer says:

    Germany is the weakest link in the anti-Russian coalition. All the Germans I know personally are highly irritated with Washington and Kiev for provoking this whole crisis.

    (The irony is that none of this would be happening if Trump were in power, yet these same Germans are all Trump-haters who spent his presidency variously mocking and denouncing him. They all celebrated when he lost reelection. It’s a good example of being careful what you wish for, because the devil may see that you get it.)

  59. “ For the Ukrainians, it wasn’t much of an escalation — they’ve already been blowing up stuff in Russia, and this didn’t kill anybody.”

    Except for any civilians that might freeze to death.

    But as Steve would say, the Good Guys blew up the pipeline, so it’s a Good Thing.

  60. @Coemgen
    Who said they were going to stop the pipelines?

    Who keeps goading the Russians (isn't bear baiting illegal in the U.S.)?

    Who really really wants martial law in the U.S.?

    Replies: @Anonymous, @The Wild Geese Howard, @Ken52

    Who really really wants martial law in the U.S.?

    People who know they’re going to get blown out in the midterm elections?

  61. If it was Ukraine, which seems pretty far fetched, they just did an attack within NATO territory, to the direct harm of a NATO member state. Which should trigger Article 5, so that would be really stupid.

    • Replies: @Thomas
    @James Braxton

    Agreed. Ukraine is a NATO proxy right now but isn't officially in NATO. Zero chance lawyers in the Pentagon and State Department would ignore this risk.

  62. @NJ Transit Commuter
    @Peter Akuleyev

    According to Reuters the leaks occurred at a depth of 80-110 m. I’m no expert on deep sea diving, but I suspect blowing up pipelines at that depth is beyond the capability of Lithuanians in a motorboat with some C4.

    Replies: @Adept, @MGB

    Diving to a 40m depth is beginner-tier — “my first PADI diving course” level — and, even from that depth, munitions can be dropped onto a pipeline 80m deep. This would require very little in the way of skill.

    Dives to 110m are trivial for trained professionals with appropriate equipment.

    The depth of the pipeline makes it more likely, not less likely, to be simple sabotage.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Adept


    Diving to a 40m depth is beginner-tier — “my first PADI diving course” level
     
    That's literally not true. It sounds like you're not adept with the metric system.

    — and, even from that depth, munitions can be dropped onto a pipeline 80m deep. This would require very little in the way of skill.
     
    So, "drop" explosives and hope for the best? And the pipeline isn't 80m deep.

    Dives to 110m are trivial for trained professionals with appropriate equipment.
     
    "Trivial"? Then I definitely want to see you go first.

    Replies: @Adept

  63. @bispora
    It's a big problem if Greg is also lying... The Ukrainians wouldn't light a match without US approval. There may have been Ukrainians on the dive team, but that the operation was conceived and executed by the CIA and the Pentagon is beyond doubt to anyone with a brain. It's a disgrace what you Americans are doing to us Europeans...

    Replies: @Citizen of a Silly Country, @HammerJack, @Alfa158, @JimDandy, @AnotherDad, @James J. O'Meara

    True, but it’s also a disgrace what the Europeans are doing to themselves. You don’t have to be our obedient pet. Stand up for yourselves and tell the Americans that you’re not willing to go along with madness.

  64. @Pericles
    So what were the supposed Ukrainian logistics in order to accomplish this? In fully deniable secrecy, of course. Please describe the details. Night train to Warsaw, drag the equipment and munitions to Gdansk train, rent fishing boat in Gdansk, ...

    If we take this flight of fancy somewhat seriously, I suppose that means Denmark or perhaps Germany could invoke uhhh clause 5 or whatever to marshal the full might of NATO against Ukrainian aggression. One for all and all for one.

    Replies: @PhysicistDave, @Thelma Ringbaum, @Ron Unz, @AnotherDad

    Poland obviously provided the passage, if not helped in the act. Poland is suing Germany for reparations now, nationalist fewer runs high, and there bound to be rogue fractions in the Polands intelligence or military to do this.

  65. Anonymous[798] • Disclaimer says:

    Might as well throw my two cents in. In a time when the German chancellor proclaimed she doesn’t care what her people think with regards to her government backing the Zionist government in Ukraine, going into winter without access to fuel for heating thier homes, is there any doubt that the Jews are behind this?. Essentially, (((they’ve))) got a gun to the back of Germany’s head, in case the Germans start to think about their own interests for a change.Looks like the Morgenthau plan to de industrialize Germany only was delayed.

  66. @botazefa
    The EU statement is on Zerohedge; https://www.zerohedge.com/commodities/damage-nord-stream-pipelines-unprecedented-may-have-been-sabotaged , as Sailer's well informed readers probably are aware.

    Biden famously said the US would end the pipeline.

    The Poles seem to be blaming the US.

    Is it considered an act of War to destroy a gas pipeline under the current circumstances? Will NATO blame Russia? Who will Germany blame?

    What will the narrative be?

    Replies: @Thelma Ringbaum, @Fluesterwitz

    To not make it act of War, all parties involved will keep quiet (or blame Putin for he is a scapegoat now) . But covert retaliations are likely, and scary: the world can slip into an undeclared terrorist war.

    • Replies: @botazefa
    @Thelma Ringbaum

    It was helpful to me to re-acquaint myself with how FDR led the US into World War II. Michael Tracey has great recent coverage on this topic, which I strongly recommend. Maybe all that talk early in Biden's Presidency about him being like FDR had nothing to do with the New Deal and everything to do with a new war to hobble Russia and kneecap Germany (NATO's founding purpose, apparently).

    https://mtracey.substack.com/p/a-fairy-tale-version-of-world-war

    It looks to me like WW3 started the moment Biden was elected. Or, perhaps the day Victoria Nuland was born.

  67. Nations that need to be black-toped:

    The US

    England

    Canada

    Germany

    Israel

    Poland

    The US

  68. @Coemgen
    @Altai

    What country has a rich recent history of going around the world creating problems for other countries?

    Poland?

    Really?

    Can't you think of another country that fits the profile just a little better?

    Replies: @Thelma Ringbaum

    Yes, Poland comes to mind allright. Starting WW2 is not a small feat.

    • LOL: Coemgen
  69. For the love of God, it was the Americans – either directly or with our approval. You can’t seriously believe it was someone else.

  70. @cliff arroyo
    Ukraine is busy elsewhere which leaves two main suspects....

    The US (was in the area and their ships went dark for a time). After throwing in their energy lot so enthusiastically with russia, a lot of the Gerrman political establishment is still hoping for a russian victory so they can turn the gas back on (so they won't have to exploit any of their own).
    This removes that for the time being. It's hard to get Germany's attention at time. This does that.

    russia: russia has been at hybrid war with the west/US since around 2006 (look up a guy named Surkov). RT and its various disinfo campaigns are part of that and generally sowing chaos in the EU is part of that. russia also funded environmental lobbies to maximize German gas dependence.
    The Baltic Pipe (terrible or great name depending on your viewpoint) just opened and so russia wants Europe on edge with countries accusing each other and this acommplishes that.

    Not sure which way I go yet.

    Replies: @Fluesterwitz

    a lot of the Gerrman political establishment is still hoping for a russian victory

    [sic]

    Pray tell, who is this lot? I might be persuadable to vote for them, if I had not to, sadly, deem them the fruit of your fertile imagination.

  71. The US is the homosexual pederast surgically mutilated tranny freak Empire….therefor, the Biden Administration did it…..

  72. Certainly the idea that the Russians did it would be the most blatant piece of lying propaganda since er… since Kiev accused them of shelling the Zaporizhia Nuclear power plant that Russia occupied and was supplying both sides with electricity from.

    It behoves anyone with a modicum of common sense to spot these blatant fakes.

    Whoever did it required a submarine or min-sub I suspect. That means US or UK were involved (both implying Biden should have been informed in advance).

    Sikorski (husband of WaPo Applebaum, former Polish FM and Defence minister, currently with a Polish role at EU and full time CIA placeman) says it was US. Which implies US or Poland (ditto for Biden).

  73. @Peter Akuleyev
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    Even if the Ukes did this, they couldn’t have done it without NATO allowing it to happen.

    Of course they could. This is a shockingly easy stunt to pull off. Could even be some angry Lithuanians with a motorboat, some C4 and some diving gear.

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @NJ Transit Commuter, @PhysicistDave, @Loyalty Over IQ Worship, @Fluesterwitz, @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Dumbo

    Depending on your ideas of ‘some’ and ‘boat’.

  74. @Pericles
    So what were the supposed Ukrainian logistics in order to accomplish this? In fully deniable secrecy, of course. Please describe the details. Night train to Warsaw, drag the equipment and munitions to Gdansk train, rent fishing boat in Gdansk, ...

    If we take this flight of fancy somewhat seriously, I suppose that means Denmark or perhaps Germany could invoke uhhh clause 5 or whatever to marshal the full might of NATO against Ukrainian aggression. One for all and all for one.

    Replies: @PhysicistDave, @Thelma Ringbaum, @Ron Unz, @AnotherDad

    So what were the supposed Ukrainian logistics in order to accomplish this? In fully deniable secrecy, of course. Please describe the details. Night train to Warsaw, drag the equipment and munitions to Gdansk train, rent fishing boat in Gdansk, …

    I suppose it’s remotely possible that the Ukrainians did it, but even leaving aside the logistics of an operation hundreds of miles from their own country, I wonder if they have the necessary military underwater technology. It hardly seems a trivial operation.

    So Poland seems a much more likely suspect. But Sikorski, their former Foreign Minister, who’s very well plugged in with America’s political/national security establishment (married to Anne Applebaum) explicitly “thanked” America. Anyway, if Poland (or Ukraine) did it, I can’t believe they would have taken such a step without authorization/encouragement by powerful elements of the American government. Probably no one would have asked Biden since he’s out to lunch, but surely senior American figures would have given a green-light or quite likely ordered the operation itself, whether it was carried out by Polish proxies or directly by American forces.

    Naturally the Washington Post and other Deep State controlled MSM immediately blamed the Russians for blowing up their own pipeline, presumably because they’re just evil and insane. Probably more than half the American public will be stupid enough to believe that.

    Given the disastrous energy problems Germany and the rest of Europe are facing this winter, the human consequences could be horrendous, but our ruling Deep State elements don’t care about that. My guess is that most Europeans will sooner or later understand that elements of the American government were probably the ones ultimately responsible, with gigantic geopolitical consequences very harmful to America’s longterm national interests. So the attack was an extremely reckless and foolish decision.

    So far, I’d guess that many or most of the iSteve commenters are probably nodding their heads in agreement. But now comes the “touchy” part.

    This entire scenario seems remarkably similar to the one I’ve been suggesting for more than two years on the origins of Covid, namely that there’s strong perhaps even overwhelming evidence that the global epidemic was due to an American biowarfare attack against China (and Iran):

    https://www.unz.com/page/covid-biowarfare-articles/

    Just as in this case, Trump himself was almost certainly out of the loop, but the attack was probably orchestrated by top figures in his administration, who immediately tried (somewhat successfully) to blame the Chinese for the viral epidemic in their own country.

    National leaders who take extremely reckless and foolish actions with disastrous longterm consequences for America’s position in the world are more likely to repeat that sort of behavior.

    • Agree: Buzz Mohawk
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @Ron Unz

    Yeah, you think the Americans dunnit, on everything (or rogue Deep State type Americans). I don't agree on the Kung Flu deal*, but as for this Nord Stream sabotage, if not directly responsible, the Potomac Regime must have been indirectly involved. As someone has written above (or in the other post), it's not like anyone's even denied it, have they?

    As for Joe Biden, he's pretty much out of every loop at this point including what he ate for breakfast.

    It's time Americans start slowly separating themselves politically from the Potomac Regime. (We even have our own flags - the Rebel flag, Gadsden flag, and even the Stars & Stripes will do as the Potomac Regime has their own Pride flag now.)

    Imagine being a Russian during the 70-year long Communist Totalitarianism or Chinaman under Mao, knowing the world hates "your" government. At least I, even at a young age, knew that the Russian people ≠ the USSR government. I hope the rest of the world will understand that patriotic Americans ≠ the Potomac Regime.


    National leaders who take extremely reckless and foolish actions with disastrous longterm consequences for America’s position in the world are more likely to repeat that sort of behavior.
     
    Agreed. However, it's all gonna stop when the financial SHTF. There's no stopping that one.

    .

    * Every piece of supposedly supporting evidence you lead us to in articles turns out not to be supporting evidence at all. I've followed your links, such as to the Nick Wade paper a year back, then some quick Wired article more recently, and guess what, they don't support your theory.

    Replies: @AnotherDad

    , @Chrisnonymous
    @Ron Unz


    Probably more than half the American public will be stupid enough to believe that.
     
    Not only American. My European co-workers were also convinced it was Russia. Their logic really does seem to be as simplistic as "this is evil and Russia is evil, so must have been Russia". When I asked them why Putin would do something that decreased his leverage over Germany, they replied "no, no... it increases his leverage because now there is only one pipeline from the south, so he can threaten that pipeline." LOL.

    Moon of Alabama has pretty good coverage as usual. My only question is what Radek Sikorski's motivation was for that Tweet. He must be too savvy not to have considered its political implications. Is he diverting attention? Is he signaling? Who is he signaling and what? Etc.
    , @Dmon
    @Ron Unz

    I don't know enough about the situation to definitively conclude who sabotaged the pipeline, other than it definitely wasn't the Russians (because the Washington Post says it definitely was the Russians). And I don't want to derail the thread over to covid. But I think there is one thing that all people of good will can agree on, regardless of their personal or political opinions :
    Stop fu#&ing around with the damn bats!
    Surely, the world community can unite to agree that any country conducting research of any kind on bats will be instantly nuked.

    https://www.upi.com/Science_News/2022/09/23/vaccine-resistant-coronavirus-similar-covid-19-found-russian-bats/6451663981211/

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Chrisnonymous

    , @Matt Buckalew
    @Ron Unz

    Ron thinks the deep state is responsible for every bad thing that happens in the world but they couldn’t even carry Ron over the top in a Republican primary.

    Remember when Ron challenged the single most effective anti-immigration politician of the past 40 years. Had the entire deep state on his side and he couldn’t even beat Pete Wilson.

    , @H. L. M
    @Ron Unz

    Dear Ron,

    Congratulations on your analysis of the Nordstream sabotage.

    But don't stop there. The attached video will firmly convince you of your flawed thinking about both "Covid" and the "Vax".

    https://usawatchdog.com/unpayable-debt-vax-causing-hell-on-earth-ed-dowd/

    , @Corvinus
    @Ron Unz

    Occam’s Razor —> “ They” in this case is a former Polish foreign minister who is highly alienated from the current Polish ruling party, despite both being more or less right of center. So unless the current Polish foreign minister starts echoing Sikorski about American culpability, I’d not take Sikorski’s comment too seriously.”

    But then than likely, it was Mossad. Jews are behind EVERY thing that goes bad in this world. At least that’s what I’ve been told by the Unz commentariat.

    , @Tex
    @Ron Unz


    But Sikorski, their former Foreign Minister, who’s very well plugged in with America’s political/national security establishment (married to Anne Applebaum) explicitly “thanked” America. Anyway, if Poland (or Ukraine) did it, I can’t believe they would have taken such a step without authorization/encouragement by powerful elements of the American government.
     
    Actual Uke divers could have carried out the mission, albeit with US assistance. That's plausible deniability. After all, it was S Vietnamese commandos that carried out the shore attacks that ended up in the Tonkin Gulf Incident. History repeats, if only for a lack of originality.

    As for Sikorski, I think he said exactly what he was supposed to. There's no point in provocation if the provocation is secret. The point of the provocation is to drive Russia into a hostile move that will (presumably) rally support for an all-out NATO war to crush Putin.

    Putin knows it was our action and we're daring him to do something about it.

    , @Buzz Mohawk
    @Ron Unz

    FWIW my loved ones in Romania and Hungary have been reporting to me for weeks now that there are grumblings among ordinary citizens there to the effect that they blame the United States for what is happening.

    They are worried about at least two things, and they blame "US" for them:

    1) An escalating war that could reach them.

    2) The economic consequences of all this.

    For a people who only in recent years have enjoyed something approaching the kind of stability in essential supplies that we Americans have for generations -- for a people who to this day live on modest incomes -- the potential for personal disaster reminiscent of not-so-distant times looms large.

    And again, many of them are starting to blame the United States. They are not stupid.

    , @Anonymous
    @Ron Unz


    My guess is that most Europeans will sooner or later understand that elements of the American government were probably the ones ultimately responsible, with gigantic geopolitical consequences very harmful to America’s longterm national interests.
     
    That is the one important consequence of the pipeline demolitions: the US has involved Europe in a shooting war that has just destroyed important European infrastructure. The US is suzerain to Europe because it promised to prevent more mechanized warfare (such as WW II) in Europe and because it promised to ensure prosperity.

    Both promises have now been broken decisively. (a) The Ukraine/Russian Federation conflict threatened to re-introduce the mass destruction of mechanized warfare into Europe, and has now done so, albeit in a limited manner thus far. (b) The Italian elections just completed demonstrate that Italians, at least, believe that economic prosperity that explicitly attacks the family is not any kind of prosperity.

    That means the foundation of US suzerainty in Europe is gone, and Europe will eject the US. In the long term, that will be the final retreat US suzerainty over any part of Eurasia, which implies the end of Globalism (world trade will collapse into regional trade) and of the ability of the US to collect tribute in the form of borrowing money in a high inflationary environment ("monetization of the debt" in technical terms), and the consequent end of US domestic politics in its present form.

    Damn. Not again.
  75. @Altai
    The key thing about NordStream 2 is it's unnecessary from a practical standpoint, it was necessary from a geopolitical stand point, it meant Germany no longer had to deal with the potential for Poland or Ukraine to block or threaten to block the flow of gas.

    Therefore both countries lose transit fees but more importantly they lose political control and leverage.

    Ukraine could not have done this. They do not have the expertise or access to the Baltic sea to sabotage a pipeline 70m under water. Meanwhile we see the breakpoints are all close to the Prussian shore. It was the Poles. The only question is, did the US know or sanction it and if they sanctioned it, help them. Maybe somebody could say Ukraine ordered it or suggested it but the practical action of doing it would have to fall to Poland and they'd have to agree.

    The Poles in particular have been inveighing about NS2 it from the start.

    https://kafkadesk.org/2021/05/21/poland-angered-by-us-president-bidens-nord-stream-ii-decision

    Poland has reacted angrily to President Joe Biden’s decision to waive US sanctions on Nord Stream II, warning the move could threaten energy security across Central and Eastern Europe.

    “The information is definitely not positive from the security point of view, as we know perfectly that Nord Stream II is not only a business project – it is mostly a geopolitical project,” said Piotr Muller, a spokesman for the Polish government.
     

    Now Sikorski posted the clip of Biden suggesting that the US would stop NS2 no matter what Germany had to say about it, ie by force. More damning from a US perspective is this clip of Victoria Nuland, the psychopathic pointwoman neocon on provoking Russia saying it more explicitly.

    https://twitter.com/azmilitary1/status/1574767709258137606

    But Germany has iced NS2, so blatant violent action was unnecessary and escalatory in a way the neocons don't seem to want. (If this was the US it'd be a very serious act of aggression towards Germany and also Denmark who have an environmental catastrophe off Bornholm) They're happy with this being a proxy war and do not want to confront the Russians military directly which things like this increase and without a plausible payoff in terms lengthening the war, Germany was already as hostile and non-cooperative with Russia as it could be and there was no serious talk of getting NS2 up and running.

    Remember, the neocons agenda is to bleed Russia and have it commit military resources there for as long as possible to stop them intervening in Syria or anywhere in the Middle East. And they're getting that with (Free to them) Ukrainian lives and territory, no need to raise the temperature and risk a nuclear war with Russia.

    Sikorski is not currently in the Polish cabinet so we can assume he doesn't really know what happened.

    For example, Tony Blinken made this cryptic statement about what happened which is differently to the usual comment you'd expect for a US denial of US actions. He said if it was sabotage, that it'd be "in no ones interest". IE, the Poles did this on their own and we don't condone it.

    https://twitter.com/kylieatwood/status/1574791417049882626

    This would not be the first time the Poles and the Baltic countries have taken actions to increase the tension and bring things closer to a direct NATO war with Russia. The first big isntance was the promises to give NATO Soviet era aircraft directly to Ukraine which also had the otherwise anti-Russia neocon Blinken running around desperately trying to not have things boil over. Then we had Lithuania causing the crisis by threatening to blockade land supplies to Kaliningrad which had EU leaders desperately try to defuse.

    It could also be, as Steve noted, that Sikorski is trying to heighten tensions by deliberately falsely implicating the US as main party or collaborator.

    That it was a Poles seems even more likely given an anti-Russian narrative has been implied (NYT style with the headline) but not spoken outright and indeed there seems to be some nervousness in the West about it. This is, like all the other rogue escalation attempts by Poland and the Baltics, treated as a serious and not welcome development without the same propaganda coverage.

    Although one other suspect or accomplice raises it's head merely because the UK intel mouthpiece (A role similar to that of the WaPo in the US) The Telegraph did try to blame it on the Russians early on.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/09/27/russian-sabotage-feared-unprecedented-damage-nord-stream-gas

    Though this may have been a result of early reporting which didn't make clear the nature of the 'faults'.

    So we have motive, ability and a modus operandi (Crazy rogue escalatory actions) for Poland and not for anybody else. These kinds of crazy rogue actions are why I keep saying if this does go to a NATO war Poland will be the one who did it.

    With the destruction of NS2 Germany is now hostage to Poland in terms of keeping this state of unpeace with Russia. It can now only be supplied with the industry saving gas from the pipelines through Ukraine and Poland.

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon, @Coemgen, @Pericles, @YetAnotherAnon, @Achmed E. Newman, @BB753, @AnotherDad, @Sam Malone

    I have no argument with the rest of your comment, Altai, due to my knowing almost nothing about these Euro politics. On this:

    … and also Denmark who have an environmental catastrophe off Bornholm)

    I don’t know. It’s nothing like an oil spill. Sea life may be affected. I didn’t get all the details, but it looks like this leak was 10 or so miles east or southeast of the 227 mi^2 island of 40,000 people. I suppose if the wind starts blowing out of the east people will smell it (assuming the mercaptan, the ingredient for the smell, had already been added).

    I’d like to know if the Russians can drain out some of the (originally 11 billion ft^3) NG from their end and how long it will take to empty the pipeline(s). Can it be repaired before that time anyway?

    It doesn’t sound like a catastrophe for Bornholm, though, except for possibly the fishing. As for the whole world, as I’ve read* in places, the emptying of the entire amount in into the atmosphere will result in an extra 1 part per 10 billion spread over the world’s first 3 miles of atmosphere, per a quick calculation.

    BTW, they may as well light it up for fun at least. It’d be like a temporary large Bunsen Burner for the scientific community.

    .

    * yahoo, who I try to avoid, called it a Climate Calamity, which I gotta admit, has a great ring to it.

    • Replies: @Alfa158
    @Achmed E. Newman

    The pipelines including Nordstrom (sic) 2 are pressurized even when not delivering gas to offset water pressure. It seems reasonable that once they are ruptured seawater will flood them. I don’t know what effect the saltwater might have on the interior lining of the pipe or how difficult it would be to flush the pipelines back out again after the demolished sections are replaced.
    I also don’t know if the Russians even care anymore. They were delivering much less gas through Nordstrom 1 already, so maybe they will just shrug, tell the Europeans that they seem to have a problem there, good luck with that, and continue their turn to the East and Global South. You can only spend so much time trying to talk that mental patient down off the ledge before you tell them to go ahead and jump and then walk away.

    , @David Davenport
    @Achmed E. Newman

    I don’t know. It’s nothing like an oil spill. Sea life may be affected. I didn’t get all the details, but it looks like this leak was 10 or so miles east or southeast of the 227 mi^2 island of 40,000 people. I suppose if the wind starts blowing out of the east people will smell it (assuming the mercaptan, the ingredient for the smell, had already been added).

    Natural gas is 90+ percent methane, CH4. The gas won't stay in the ocean. It will all float to the surface and up into the atmosphere.

    By the way, methane's "greenhouse' effects are exaggerated.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Achmed E. Newman


    It doesn’t sound like a catastrophe for Bornholm...
     
    Fun fact: the Danish word for grandfather clock is Bornholmer. That would be like our calling it a Nantucketer or an Oahuan. Then again, many people call a patio a lanai.


    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/Bornholmerur.jpg

    Bornholmertraße was one of the Berlin Wall crossings:


    Dark Tourism: BORNHOLMER STRASSE

    Bornholm is closer to Sweden, Germany, and even Poland than to the rest of Denmark.

  76. @Torn and Frayed
    Ukraine does not have direct access to the Baltic Sea which makes it less likely they carried out this attack alone. At the very least Poland was involved but it is obviously far more likely the the US/UK were the leaders of this terrorist operation.

    Since it is unlikely we will soon know for sure, the more interesting question is whom Russia will retaliate against? One obvious target would be Norwegian pipelines. Another strategy would be to concentrate their reprisals on the UK, an island nation already on the ropes economically. The Eurotunnel would be a high profile target. The many less iconic energy and information pipelines that link the UK to the EU and US would also be easy pickings.

    This war is the best thing ever for the anti-globalization movement!!

    Replies: @bispora, @Kim

    Undersea communication cables between UK and USA might be a reasonable tit-for-tat target.

  77. @Ron Unz
    @Pericles


    So what were the supposed Ukrainian logistics in order to accomplish this? In fully deniable secrecy, of course. Please describe the details. Night train to Warsaw, drag the equipment and munitions to Gdansk train, rent fishing boat in Gdansk, …
     
    I suppose it's remotely possible that the Ukrainians did it, but even leaving aside the logistics of an operation hundreds of miles from their own country, I wonder if they have the necessary military underwater technology. It hardly seems a trivial operation.

    So Poland seems a much more likely suspect. But Sikorski, their former Foreign Minister, who's very well plugged in with America's political/national security establishment (married to Anne Applebaum) explicitly "thanked" America. Anyway, if Poland (or Ukraine) did it, I can't believe they would have taken such a step without authorization/encouragement by powerful elements of the American government. Probably no one would have asked Biden since he's out to lunch, but surely senior American figures would have given a green-light or quite likely ordered the operation itself, whether it was carried out by Polish proxies or directly by American forces.

    Naturally the Washington Post and other Deep State controlled MSM immediately blamed the Russians for blowing up their own pipeline, presumably because they're just evil and insane. Probably more than half the American public will be stupid enough to believe that.

    Given the disastrous energy problems Germany and the rest of Europe are facing this winter, the human consequences could be horrendous, but our ruling Deep State elements don't care about that. My guess is that most Europeans will sooner or later understand that elements of the American government were probably the ones ultimately responsible, with gigantic geopolitical consequences very harmful to America's longterm national interests. So the attack was an extremely reckless and foolish decision.

    So far, I'd guess that many or most of the iSteve commenters are probably nodding their heads in agreement. But now comes the "touchy" part.

    This entire scenario seems remarkably similar to the one I've been suggesting for more than two years on the origins of Covid, namely that there's strong perhaps even overwhelming evidence that the global epidemic was due to an American biowarfare attack against China (and Iran):

    https://www.unz.com/page/covid-biowarfare-articles/

    Just as in this case, Trump himself was almost certainly out of the loop, but the attack was probably orchestrated by top figures in his administration, who immediately tried (somewhat successfully) to blame the Chinese for the viral epidemic in their own country.

    National leaders who take extremely reckless and foolish actions with disastrous longterm consequences for America's position in the world are more likely to repeat that sort of behavior.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Chrisnonymous, @Dmon, @Matt Buckalew, @H. L. M, @Corvinus, @Tex, @Buzz Mohawk, @Anonymous

    Yeah, you think the Americans dunnit, on everything (or rogue Deep State type Americans). I don’t agree on the Kung Flu deal*, but as for this Nord Stream sabotage, if not directly responsible, the Potomac Regime must have been indirectly involved. As someone has written above (or in the other post), it’s not like anyone’s even denied it, have they?

    As for Joe Biden, he’s pretty much out of every loop at this point including what he ate for breakfast.

    It’s time Americans start slowly separating themselves politically from the Potomac Regime. (We even have our own flags – the Rebel flag, Gadsden flag, and even the Stars & Stripes will do as the Potomac Regime has their own Pride flag now.)

    Imagine being a Russian during the 70-year long Communist Totalitarianism or Chinaman under Mao, knowing the world hates “your” government. At least I, even at a young age, knew that the Russian people ≠ the USSR government. I hope the rest of the world will understand that patriotic Americans ≠ the Potomac Regime.

    National leaders who take extremely reckless and foolish actions with disastrous longterm consequences for America’s position in the world are more likely to repeat that sort of behavior.

    Agreed. However, it’s all gonna stop when the financial SHTF. There’s no stopping that one.

    .

    * Every piece of supposedly supporting evidence you lead us to in articles turns out not to be supporting evidence at all. I’ve followed your links, such as to the Nick Wade paper a year back, then some quick Wired article more recently, and guess what, they don’t support your theory.

    • Replies: @AnotherDad
    @Achmed E. Newman


    It’s time Americans start slowly separating themselves politically from the Potomac Regime. (We even have our own flags – the Rebel flag, Gadsden flag, and even the Stars & Stripes will do as the Potomac Regime has their own Pride flag now.)
     
    The Gadsden flag is great.

    I do not like the Rebel Flag--really the Army of Northern Virgina battle flag--because of its association with slavery. The Confederacy had the better "self-determination" argument, but slavery is a very old, very crappy institution we want no part of. In fact, we precisely do not want to be enslaved by our new "elite", diversity! peddling, cheap labor swilling masters.

    But the Gadsden flag is great, because it overtly hammers the f-off, "Don't Tread on Me" point while tying it richly to American history. It says:

    "We are the real Americans, with the real American spirit--not you 'nation of immigrants, America nothing but a big marketplace for looting people."

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Corvinus

  78. A puppet regime by definition cannot act independently on such matters, that means whoever pulled the trigger, the one responsible is the US regime.

  79. I hope the rest of the world will understand that patriotic Americans ≠ the Potomac Regime.

    I consider anyone who votes (either of the uniparty factions) as part of the regime and thus just as guilty. Also, what does it even mean to be a “patriotic American”, this evil empire is hardly a new thing, it had been doing these kind of things for decades, being patriotic means supporting this evil.

  80. @NJ Transit Commuter
    Even if the Ukes did this, they couldn’t have done it without NATO allowing it to happen. So this is still a casus belli between Russia and NATO. The other alternative is that the Russians did it, which is also a potential casus belli between Russian and NATO.

    We are reaching Cuban Missile Crisis territory here, and JRB is no JFK.

    Replies: @MEH 0910, @Peter Akuleyev, @Paul Jolliffe, @Colin Wright

    Unlike Biden, Kennedy himself knew firsthand the dangers and horrors of war.
    Unlike Biden, Kennedy was deeply concerned about the impact on future generations of Americans any decisions he would make.
    Unlike Biden, Kennedy was a reader (if not a writer . . .) of history, very aware of the dangers of human omniscience, arrogance and certainty.
    Unlike Biden, Kennedy sought a negotiated way out.
    Unlike Biden, Kennedy did not want to increase the risk of nuclear war with Russia.
    Unlike Biden, Kennedy was unwilling to yield to the many hawks in his administration. (“The brass have one advantage – if this goes south, none of us will be around to tell them they were wrong.”)
    Unlike Biden, Kennedy was a smart and personally courageous man.

    • Agree: ic1000
    • Replies: @RAZ
    @Paul Jolliffe


    Unlike Biden, Kennedy himself knew firsthand the dangers and horrors of war.
    Unlike Biden, Kennedy was deeply concerned about the impact on future generations of Americans any decisions he would make.
    Unlike Biden, Kennedy was a reader (if not a writer . . .) of history, very aware of the dangers of human omniscience, arrogance and certainty.
    Unlike Biden, Kennedy sought a negotiated way out.
    Unlike Biden, Kennedy did not want to increase the risk of nuclear war with Russia.
    Unlike Biden, Kennedy was unwilling to yield to the many hawks in his administration. (“The brass have one advantage – if this goes south, none of us will be around to tell them they were wrong.”)
    Unlike Biden, Kennedy was a smart and personally courageous man.

     

    Agree. Our loss to have Biden and not Kennedy.

    Bay of Pigs soured Kennedy on the Intelligence community and he developed a healthy skepticism of the military leadership from the missile crisis. I used to think it was just Liberal love for Kennedy when they would say he would've pulled us out of Vietnam sooner, but have read enough like The Best And The Brightest to believe Kennedy was smart enough and assured enough and skeptical enough that he would've begun withdrawing after his re-election in 1964, instead of massively expanding like LBJ did. Eisenhower would also have been smart enough and been skeptical enough of his generals to have done similar to Kennedy on Cuban missile, and to have pulled the plug on Vietnam.
  81. The CIA warned Germany about attacks on the pipelines back in the summer. Presumably they had a suspect in mind, and that would stack the odds against this being Ukraine or Poland. Because if it were either of the latter, someone in Germany or the US would have dropped them a line saying “we’re on to you — don’t you dare.”

    That leaves the US or the Russians. (And if it were the US, then even if it was nominally the Poles or the Ukrainians, the fact that they didn’t get the big red NO light would imply they had US backing and/or approval so they’re still the ones behind it.) If it were the US, then it would have been dumb to warn the Germans, but the conspiracy theorists can always say that’s precisely how the US planned to shift blame from themselves. Sounds weak to me, but there’s no arguing with people like that.

    Maybe once the investigation is concluded, someone will have been revealed to be sloppy with regard to what was left behind. Then again, the conspiracy theorists will say someone simply planted the Russian monkey wrench near the explosion, or whatever.

    It could have also been some rogue faction somewhere stirring up trouble, or North Koreans, but I’d rank them all as dark horses.

    In any case, it makes no sense to run the analysis without factoring in the CIA warning (and how specifically it was worded as to who they were tapping in order to get the intel.)

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    @HA


    BERLIN, Sept 27 (Reuters) - The U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) had weeks ago warned Germany about possible attacks on gas pipelines in the Baltic Sea, German magazine Spiegel said on Tuesday, after gas leaks in Russia pipelines to Germany were reported.

    The German government received the CIA tip in summer, Spiegel reported, citing unnamed sources, adding that Berlin assumes a targeted attack on Nord Stream 1 and 2 pipelines.
     
    (1) unnamed source is accurate: CIA giving German ally heads up so they can prep logistically and politically while maintaining plausible deniability for planned US attack

    (2) unnamed source is accurate: CIA giving Germany heads up while identity of suspect concealed for political reasons

    (3) unnamed source is lying: post-event attempt to use incident to shift public opinion in Germany

    (4) unnamed source is inaccurate for whatever reason

    (5) unnamed source doesn't exist and story is made up

    As with Russiagate, being a spook-leak-watcher is only going to make you a dupe for various kinds of misinformation, and a truer guide to events is to look at verifiable evidence and consider it in context of each player's self-interest and historical behavior.
  82. @Daniel H
    @halfhearted


    They wouldn’t do such a thing without telling the US of their intention. Their entire economy is funded by them & will be for the foreseeable future. The US would probably have encouraged it.
     
    Your comment is based on the presumption that Zelensky & Co. are really in control.

    Replies: @HammerJack, @SunBakedSuburb

    It’s also based on the notion that the Ukrainians feel obliged toward the USA just because we gave them $60 billion. All they have to do is look at the middle east to see that US largesse seldom attaches any kind of requirements.

    Moreover the Ukrainians are savvy enough to realize that they’re being funded because of Russia, not because of their own inherent virtue.

  83. @bispora
    It's a big problem if Greg is also lying... The Ukrainians wouldn't light a match without US approval. There may have been Ukrainians on the dive team, but that the operation was conceived and executed by the CIA and the Pentagon is beyond doubt to anyone with a brain. It's a disgrace what you Americans are doing to us Europeans...

    Replies: @Citizen of a Silly Country, @HammerJack, @Alfa158, @JimDandy, @AnotherDad, @James J. O'Meara

    It’s a disgrace what you Americans are doing to us Europeans…

    Yeah, it’s called “effing over” and the USA has been doing it to much of the world since ww2 if not longer.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @HammerJack

    <blockquote>Yeah, it’s called “effing over” and the USA has been doing it to much of the world since ww2 if not longer.
     The rest of the world is not serious. E.g., Paris:


    https://goop-img.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/March%C3%A9-Avenue-du-Pr%C3%A9sident-Wilson1.jpg


    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a1/Plaque_Avenue_Franklin_Roosevelt_-_Paris_VIII_%28FR75%29_-_2021-08-22_-_1.jpg/410px-Plaque_Avenue_Franklin_Roosevelt_-_Paris_VIII_%28FR75%29_-_2021-08-22_-_1.jpg


    https://previews.123rf.com/images/chrisdorney/chrisdorney1408/chrisdorney140800207/31081617-a-street-sign-for-avenue-du-president-kennedy-in-paris-named-after-the-35th-president-of-the-united-.jpg

  84. @International Jew
    Are we looking at a new German-Russian nonaggression pact?

    Replies: @HammerJack, @Hypnotoad666

    It’s always 1937 for some people.

  85. It’s true, the only state that benefits from the pipeline sabotage is the US. The Russians only needed to turn the tap off if that was their aim. Whatever contracts may be in force have been made null and void by EU sanctions and EU theft of Russian assets. The Krauts certainly didn’t do it, the Greens in the German government are too imbecilic to arrange anything more complicated than a vegetable sandwich. If the Poles did it expecting the gas to now go through one of their own pipelines, fat chance, they’d be playing right into Putin’s hands.

    So now even if the Krauts were going to crack in the middle of winter and dare to go up against US policy, they no longer have the option. After all, the world’s fakest President has said the pipeline would be stopped, and US naval ships were in the area…..so just joining the dots here…

    • Replies: @dimples
    @dimples

    Further to the above:
    1. The Nordstream 1 pipeline was already shut down as maintenance could not be carried out due to sanctions, according to the Russians. Thus no need to violate contracts, tap is already turned off.
    2. If the Germans were to drop sanctions on Russia, then Russia cannot now restart gas supplies through the pipeline(s). This is the main reason in my opinion why the sabotage was not carried out by Russia.

    The US deep state and military get major erotic thrills out of covert action in order to operate without consequences. Overall it seems quite reasonable to believe that this is a US product without further evidence.

  86. Given the extensive nature of modern infrastructure, it’s remarkable that this kind of thing doesn’t happen more often. Sabotage is a lot easier than people think.

    For example, a gang of half-wit anarchists was sabotaging BNSF oil trains in my neck of the woods just a couple years ago. The equipment they used to sabotage the trains cost all of a hundred dollars.

    https://mynorthwest.com/2952335/rail-union-derailment-washington-oil-train-sabotage/

    Blowing up an underwater pipeline is technically more challenging, but as Steve mentioned anyone with undersea drilling/extraction experience could easily pull it off. All you need is a few kilograms of explosives, a boat with GPS and diving equipment.

    So yes it could have been Ukrainians, who have so many refugees in Poland now that operatives could go completely undetected without much trouble. But it could have been others, too. With Joe Biden in charge we really don’t know who is calling the shots here, and that’s dangerous.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Bill P


    The equipment they used to sabotage the trains cost all of a hundred dollars.
     
    You could also shoot up an elementary school with a few $ worth of ammo. Sane people are restrained from immoral acts by their own conscience (and if they lack one, by the fear of the law) and not by the cost.
  87. @Altai
    The key thing about NordStream 2 is it's unnecessary from a practical standpoint, it was necessary from a geopolitical stand point, it meant Germany no longer had to deal with the potential for Poland or Ukraine to block or threaten to block the flow of gas.

    Therefore both countries lose transit fees but more importantly they lose political control and leverage.

    Ukraine could not have done this. They do not have the expertise or access to the Baltic sea to sabotage a pipeline 70m under water. Meanwhile we see the breakpoints are all close to the Prussian shore. It was the Poles. The only question is, did the US know or sanction it and if they sanctioned it, help them. Maybe somebody could say Ukraine ordered it or suggested it but the practical action of doing it would have to fall to Poland and they'd have to agree.

    The Poles in particular have been inveighing about NS2 it from the start.

    https://kafkadesk.org/2021/05/21/poland-angered-by-us-president-bidens-nord-stream-ii-decision

    Poland has reacted angrily to President Joe Biden’s decision to waive US sanctions on Nord Stream II, warning the move could threaten energy security across Central and Eastern Europe.

    “The information is definitely not positive from the security point of view, as we know perfectly that Nord Stream II is not only a business project – it is mostly a geopolitical project,” said Piotr Muller, a spokesman for the Polish government.
     

    Now Sikorski posted the clip of Biden suggesting that the US would stop NS2 no matter what Germany had to say about it, ie by force. More damning from a US perspective is this clip of Victoria Nuland, the psychopathic pointwoman neocon on provoking Russia saying it more explicitly.

    https://twitter.com/azmilitary1/status/1574767709258137606

    But Germany has iced NS2, so blatant violent action was unnecessary and escalatory in a way the neocons don't seem to want. (If this was the US it'd be a very serious act of aggression towards Germany and also Denmark who have an environmental catastrophe off Bornholm) They're happy with this being a proxy war and do not want to confront the Russians military directly which things like this increase and without a plausible payoff in terms lengthening the war, Germany was already as hostile and non-cooperative with Russia as it could be and there was no serious talk of getting NS2 up and running.

    Remember, the neocons agenda is to bleed Russia and have it commit military resources there for as long as possible to stop them intervening in Syria or anywhere in the Middle East. And they're getting that with (Free to them) Ukrainian lives and territory, no need to raise the temperature and risk a nuclear war with Russia.

    Sikorski is not currently in the Polish cabinet so we can assume he doesn't really know what happened.

    For example, Tony Blinken made this cryptic statement about what happened which is differently to the usual comment you'd expect for a US denial of US actions. He said if it was sabotage, that it'd be "in no ones interest". IE, the Poles did this on their own and we don't condone it.

    https://twitter.com/kylieatwood/status/1574791417049882626

    This would not be the first time the Poles and the Baltic countries have taken actions to increase the tension and bring things closer to a direct NATO war with Russia. The first big isntance was the promises to give NATO Soviet era aircraft directly to Ukraine which also had the otherwise anti-Russia neocon Blinken running around desperately trying to not have things boil over. Then we had Lithuania causing the crisis by threatening to blockade land supplies to Kaliningrad which had EU leaders desperately try to defuse.

    It could also be, as Steve noted, that Sikorski is trying to heighten tensions by deliberately falsely implicating the US as main party or collaborator.

    That it was a Poles seems even more likely given an anti-Russian narrative has been implied (NYT style with the headline) but not spoken outright and indeed there seems to be some nervousness in the West about it. This is, like all the other rogue escalation attempts by Poland and the Baltics, treated as a serious and not welcome development without the same propaganda coverage.

    Although one other suspect or accomplice raises it's head merely because the UK intel mouthpiece (A role similar to that of the WaPo in the US) The Telegraph did try to blame it on the Russians early on.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/09/27/russian-sabotage-feared-unprecedented-damage-nord-stream-gas

    Though this may have been a result of early reporting which didn't make clear the nature of the 'faults'.

    So we have motive, ability and a modus operandi (Crazy rogue escalatory actions) for Poland and not for anybody else. These kinds of crazy rogue actions are why I keep saying if this does go to a NATO war Poland will be the one who did it.

    With the destruction of NS2 Germany is now hostage to Poland in terms of keeping this state of unpeace with Russia. It can now only be supplied with the industry saving gas from the pipelines through Ukraine and Poland.

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon, @Coemgen, @Pericles, @YetAnotherAnon, @Achmed E. Newman, @BB753, @AnotherDad, @Sam Malone

    Just because Poles or Ukrainians wanted to blow the pipeline up doesn’t mean that they did it. I posit only the Royal Navy had the means to do it. Yeah, the UK Navy.

    • Replies: @Lockean Proviso
    @BB753

    If the U.K. sent Boris Johnson to Ukraine to talk to Zelensky to blow up a potential peace deal in which Russia would withdraw troops in exchange for Ukraine's renunciation of any future NATO membership, I wouldn't put blowing up a pipeline past them.

    https://www.commondreams.org/news/2022/05/06/boris-johnson-pressured-zelenskyy-ditch-peace-talks-russia-ukrainian-paper

  88. Have yet to confirm but an American source has stated that they found Putin’s passport floating by one of the sabotage sites.

    Cheers-

    • LOL: Gordo
  89. @Cagey Beast
    @Peter Akuleyev

    Yes and I'm going to light my uninsured car on fire as a warning to my neighbour that his car might be next.

    Replies: @Jack D

    Yes. Because if you light your neighbor’s car on fire it’s a causus belli and he is going to go to war against you (call the cops). But if you light your own car on fire (and maintain plausible deniability that someone else did it), it’s not.

    I can’t say that it makes a tremendous amount of sense that Putin blew up his own pipeline, but all indicators (the usual unz.com conspiracy theories aside) point to Russia having done it – they had the means and opportunity. So he must have had his reasons.

    In case you haven’t noticed, Putin is now in desperation mode. The Russian Army is a shambles. He is grabbing old men off the street and sending them to the front without training – this is Germany 1945 level desperation. He is going to annex part of Ukraine based upon a sham referendum that NO ONE outside of Russia, even Putin’s allies, recognizes. Hundreds of thousands of Russia’s best and brightest are getting out of the country any way that they can and are probably never coming back. Domestic protests and even violence are breaking out. It’s a royal friggin’ mess, no matter how much copium you take.

    Desperate times call for desperate measures. One possibility is that this is Putin’s signal to Germany (and to himself) that he has crossed the Rubicon and burned his bridges behind him. There is no making up possible anymore even if the Germans want it. It’s never going back to the old way even if the Germans press Ukraine to make a deal. Putin is turning his back on Europe and letting his inner Mongol fly!

    Putin has his back to the corner but he’s not ready to throw in the towel (losing this war is for him game, set, match – there is no home for retired dictators). He is going to keep trying whatever he can come up with to keep his opponents off balance. If some of it seems a little crazy, all the better. He has told us that he is “not bluffing” about using nukes either.

    • Agree: Bardon Kaldian
    • Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic
    @Jack D

    If Vlad the Bad wanted to stop the spice all he had to do was turn a few gate valves.

    It was the US Navy SEALs. They have a whole command devoted to these operations. The Baltic is a big pond and this would be a walk in the park for them.

    Replies: @Jack D

    , @BB753
    @Jack D

    Jack D, stop reading the NY times! Not only is it expensive to read but you know it's all BS.

    , @Citizen of a Silly Country
    @Jack D

    What's terrifying is that you actually believe this nonsense. Indeed, you'll believe anything that you think helps your people. I hope the world wakes up to this fact.

    , @HA
    @Jack D

    "I can’t say that it makes a tremendous amount of sense that Putin blew up his own pipeline,..."

    If the Russians did it, they presumably wanted to pin the blame on the US (or maybe the Poles or Ukrainians) and therefore they purposely chose a target where they would suffer a loss, so as to help shift the suspicion elsewhere. The fact that no one is taking credit for this indicates that it was designed to frame someone else.

    Had the perpetrators known that the CIA had already sussed out what was happening, they might have not done it (unless the CIA was likewise suspecting it was the Ukrainians or Poles, and that's precisely the party that was being framed). Then again, the story about the CIA having tipped of the Germans is itself going to be regarded as just part of the CIA cover-up by some, as opposed to something that actually happened.

    If the investigation doesn't resolve the matter, then eventually, someone may still take credit for this, or spill the beans, but that might not happen for another couple of decades.

    , @Bardon Kaldian
    @Jack D


    Putin is turning his back on Europe and letting his inner Mongol fly!
     
    Agreed except that. Mongols were cold and calculating when it came to decision making.
  90. @Ron Unz
    @Pericles


    So what were the supposed Ukrainian logistics in order to accomplish this? In fully deniable secrecy, of course. Please describe the details. Night train to Warsaw, drag the equipment and munitions to Gdansk train, rent fishing boat in Gdansk, …
     
    I suppose it's remotely possible that the Ukrainians did it, but even leaving aside the logistics of an operation hundreds of miles from their own country, I wonder if they have the necessary military underwater technology. It hardly seems a trivial operation.

    So Poland seems a much more likely suspect. But Sikorski, their former Foreign Minister, who's very well plugged in with America's political/national security establishment (married to Anne Applebaum) explicitly "thanked" America. Anyway, if Poland (or Ukraine) did it, I can't believe they would have taken such a step without authorization/encouragement by powerful elements of the American government. Probably no one would have asked Biden since he's out to lunch, but surely senior American figures would have given a green-light or quite likely ordered the operation itself, whether it was carried out by Polish proxies or directly by American forces.

    Naturally the Washington Post and other Deep State controlled MSM immediately blamed the Russians for blowing up their own pipeline, presumably because they're just evil and insane. Probably more than half the American public will be stupid enough to believe that.

    Given the disastrous energy problems Germany and the rest of Europe are facing this winter, the human consequences could be horrendous, but our ruling Deep State elements don't care about that. My guess is that most Europeans will sooner or later understand that elements of the American government were probably the ones ultimately responsible, with gigantic geopolitical consequences very harmful to America's longterm national interests. So the attack was an extremely reckless and foolish decision.

    So far, I'd guess that many or most of the iSteve commenters are probably nodding their heads in agreement. But now comes the "touchy" part.

    This entire scenario seems remarkably similar to the one I've been suggesting for more than two years on the origins of Covid, namely that there's strong perhaps even overwhelming evidence that the global epidemic was due to an American biowarfare attack against China (and Iran):

    https://www.unz.com/page/covid-biowarfare-articles/

    Just as in this case, Trump himself was almost certainly out of the loop, but the attack was probably orchestrated by top figures in his administration, who immediately tried (somewhat successfully) to blame the Chinese for the viral epidemic in their own country.

    National leaders who take extremely reckless and foolish actions with disastrous longterm consequences for America's position in the world are more likely to repeat that sort of behavior.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Chrisnonymous, @Dmon, @Matt Buckalew, @H. L. M, @Corvinus, @Tex, @Buzz Mohawk, @Anonymous

    Probably more than half the American public will be stupid enough to believe that.

    Not only American. My European co-workers were also convinced it was Russia. Their logic really does seem to be as simplistic as “this is evil and Russia is evil, so must have been Russia”. When I asked them why Putin would do something that decreased his leverage over Germany, they replied “no, no… it increases his leverage because now there is only one pipeline from the south, so he can threaten that pipeline.” LOL.

    Moon of Alabama has pretty good coverage as usual. My only question is what Radek Sikorski’s motivation was for that Tweet. He must be too savvy not to have considered its political implications. Is he diverting attention? Is he signaling? Who is he signaling and what? Etc.

  91. This was just battlespace preparation. The real show starts Friday evening.
    Be there or be square!

  92. It’s hard to see why Russians would sabotage pipelines when they can simply cut the flow at the source. They could even claim technical difficulties etc. On the other hand, the alternative to piped natural gas is LNG. Sabatoge of LNG terminals would put a very serious hurt on northern Europe.

  93. @Bill P
    Given the extensive nature of modern infrastructure, it's remarkable that this kind of thing doesn't happen more often. Sabotage is a lot easier than people think.

    For example, a gang of half-wit anarchists was sabotaging BNSF oil trains in my neck of the woods just a couple years ago. The equipment they used to sabotage the trains cost all of a hundred dollars.

    https://mynorthwest.com/2952335/rail-union-derailment-washington-oil-train-sabotage/

    Blowing up an underwater pipeline is technically more challenging, but as Steve mentioned anyone with undersea drilling/extraction experience could easily pull it off. All you need is a few kilograms of explosives, a boat with GPS and diving equipment.

    So yes it could have been Ukrainians, who have so many refugees in Poland now that operatives could go completely undetected without much trouble. But it could have been others, too. With Joe Biden in charge we really don't know who is calling the shots here, and that's dangerous.

    Replies: @Jack D

    The equipment they used to sabotage the trains cost all of a hundred dollars.

    You could also shoot up an elementary school with a few $ worth of ammo. Sane people are restrained from immoral acts by their own conscience (and if they lack one, by the fear of the law) and not by the cost.

  94. I can’t tell if this post is a joke or not

    Especially the One Million Dollars part

  95. @PhysicistDave
    @Pericles

    Pericles wrote:


    If we take this flight of fancy somewhat seriously, I suppose that means Denmark or perhaps Germany could invoke uhhh clause 5 or whatever to marshal the full might of NATO against Ukrainian aggression. One for all and all for one.
     
    Since the explosions seem to have occurred in both Swedish and Danish waters, they are technically acts of war against both Sweden and Denmark.

    The question I keep pressing is: why has no one claimed credit?

    It would seem to be a real morale-booster for Zelensky, and I don't think he is too worried about "retaliation": Russia is already hitting him hard and likely to hit a lot harder in any case after the Donbass accedes to membership in the Russian Federation at the end of the week.

    Although I do wonder if Putin will announce that the Kremlin knows that Zelensky did it, so that Putin can rally his country around an escalation.

    Now, if NATO did it... it is easy to see why they are not taking credit -- it is, after all, an act of war.

    Could Poland have done it? They are damn fools if they did, and it is hard to imagine them doing it without US backing. Then, again, prudence has not always been a major Polish character trait...

    Replies: @Pericles, @Chrisnonymous, @Philip Neal

    Could Poland have done it? They are damn fools if they did, and it is hard to imagine them doing it without US backing. Then, again, prudence has not always been a major Polish character trait…

    So, I wonder if Sikorski’s Tweet context is like this:

    Polish govt: dear USA, you must stop Nordstream
    USG: dear Poland, no for reasons
    Poles: yes
    US: no
    Poles: [blow up pipeline]
    Sikorski: “Thanks, USA” (ie, nya, nya, in your face)

    It’s possible, but I think the US is the most likely culprit. There are multiple benefits, one of which is that the pointlessness of lifting sanctions in the face of the pipeline being down removes the sanctions as a focus of political discontent among European voters.

    The only motive I can see for the Russians is a final decision to completely decouple from the West, but this would be a brash move. In addition to the fact that being caught could lead to a NATO interpretation of attack, even if that decision has been made, in the short term, dangling the gas delivery is helpful on the political front of the war. Then again, it could be a sign of disagreement within Russia–as in, one faction wants to settle with the west and try to crawl back to 2021 relations, so the other faction is like, hell if that’s gonna happen! But really I think the USA most likely.

  96. @Jack D
    @Cagey Beast

    Yes. Because if you light your neighbor's car on fire it's a causus belli and he is going to go to war against you (call the cops). But if you light your own car on fire (and maintain plausible deniability that someone else did it), it's not.

    I can't say that it makes a tremendous amount of sense that Putin blew up his own pipeline, but all indicators (the usual unz.com conspiracy theories aside) point to Russia having done it - they had the means and opportunity. So he must have had his reasons.

    In case you haven't noticed, Putin is now in desperation mode. The Russian Army is a shambles. He is grabbing old men off the street and sending them to the front without training - this is Germany 1945 level desperation. He is going to annex part of Ukraine based upon a sham referendum that NO ONE outside of Russia, even Putin's allies, recognizes. Hundreds of thousands of Russia's best and brightest are getting out of the country any way that they can and are probably never coming back. Domestic protests and even violence are breaking out. It's a royal friggin' mess, no matter how much copium you take.

    Desperate times call for desperate measures. One possibility is that this is Putin's signal to Germany (and to himself) that he has crossed the Rubicon and burned his bridges behind him. There is no making up possible anymore even if the Germans want it. It's never going back to the old way even if the Germans press Ukraine to make a deal. Putin is turning his back on Europe and letting his inner Mongol fly!

    Putin has his back to the corner but he's not ready to throw in the towel (losing this war is for him game, set, match - there is no home for retired dictators). He is going to keep trying whatever he can come up with to keep his opponents off balance. If some of it seems a little crazy, all the better. He has told us that he is "not bluffing" about using nukes either.

    Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic, @BB753, @Citizen of a Silly Country, @HA, @Bardon Kaldian

    If Vlad the Bad wanted to stop the spice all he had to do was turn a few gate valves.

    It was the US Navy SEALs. They have a whole command devoted to these operations. The Baltic is a big pond and this would be a walk in the park for them.

    • Agree: Gordo, chris
    • Replies: @Jack D
    @The Anti-Gnostic

    You're missing the point. The valves were already off (in the case of Nord Stream 2 they were never even opened). But with the pipeline intact, he could turn them back on just as quickly as he turned them off. This was saying to the Germans (and to himself and to the oligarchs) that no deal is possible anymore. The divorce is permanent.

    Another possibility is that this was just a way of reducing Gazprom's damages. Gazprom has contracts to deliver gas and if they don't fulfill the contract there are damages. UNLESS the inability to deliver is due to "force majuere". Gazprom turned off the gas several weeks agon on the basis that a turbine was broken but that excuse was starting to wear thin so they needed another excuse.

    Replies: @Hunsdon, @vinteuil

  97. @halfhearted
    They wouldn't do such a thing without telling the US of their intention. Their entire economy is funded by them & will be for the foreseeable future. The US would probably have encouraged it.

    Replies: @Daniel H, @Hypnotoad666

    Ukrainians did it in the same way that it was Cuban exiles, by themselves, who invaded the Bay of Pigs. It’s not impossible, however, that it was merely one faction of the Deep State that managed or organized the operation. In addition to being evil, they are usually incompetent and have the worst judgment possible.

    • Replies: @Sam Malone
    @Hypnotoad666

    Good analogy - as if the Cuban participants of the US Bay of Pigs operation had anything like the independent agency and wherewithal and ability to pull of something of that scope. Saying "the Ukrainians did this" is incredible level one obtuseness even if it was them. As if the Ukrainians could have done something like that without us knowing, even assuming they were arrogant enough to think it was a good idea to pull something like that off without telling us.

    The way things work on planet earth in this timeline is that the US would have had ships or listening stations or satellites or watching over every step of the operation, probably put them up to it or at minimum were counseled on the action well in advance and tacitly gave a thumbs up, probably indirectly funded it via the transfer of our national wealth to Ukraine over the last six months, probably had our people give theirs technical advice (hell, maybe even deep-sea rehearsal experience), probably supplied some of the equipment, would have escorted their ships to and from the pipeline, etc, etc, etc, etc.

  98. It was the Israelis.

    They needed to take down Russia for its Syria adventures. Europe being a cesspool of anti semitism needed also to be taken down a notch. This also helps Azerbaijan their partner in potential bombing of Iran. They have the skills. And if caught the Americans can be counted to bail them out

  99. @bispora
    It's a big problem if Greg is also lying... The Ukrainians wouldn't light a match without US approval. There may have been Ukrainians on the dive team, but that the operation was conceived and executed by the CIA and the Pentagon is beyond doubt to anyone with a brain. It's a disgrace what you Americans are doing to us Europeans...

    Replies: @Citizen of a Silly Country, @HammerJack, @Alfa158, @JimDandy, @AnotherDad, @James J. O'Meara

    European citizens are asking for what is being done to them. For that matter American citizens are also bending over and asking for it. Once they are sore enough, maybe the people of both continents will stand back up and tell their rulers to stop, but I suspect that the posterior pain level will have to go a lot higher before that happens.

    • Agree: Matthew Kelly, Gordo
  100. @Loyalty Over IQ Worship
    People were speculating about this 5 minutes after the attack. This is hardly some gee whiz theory.

    The point is, the USA would have known about it. And NATO has been giving intelligence support to every other attack on Russia, so ....

    Anyway, Greg Cochran blew his credibility with his insane Covid rantings.

    Replies: @TWS, @Mr. Anon

    Lots of guys went off the deep end about covid and have never said, ‘I was wrong.’

  101. Well who ya gonna believe, a cranky old retired anthropologist or a former Polish defense minister and current member of the EU parliament?

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelshellenberger/2022/09/27/us-blew-up-russian-gas-pipelines-nord-stream-1--2-says-former-polish-defense-minister/

  102. @Timur The Lame
    Probably a bridge too far, but the 2010 plane crash the took the life of the Polish president, his wife and several top military and religious leaders on their way to commemorate the Katyn massacre is apparently still a controversial and unresolved issue.

    In a Guardian article written 6 years after the crash interesting details emerge which mention all of the things presently in play in the Ukraine. For the record, Putin attended the president's funeral.

    I wonder if the Pollacks have the Chechen concept of revenge.

    Cheers-

    Replies: @TWS, @cliff arroyo

    I only know a few Poles, but they all dislike Russians.

  103. As for the means, it’s not that hard to obtain a smallish commercial vessel at a port somewhere in the north Atlantic. You might be able to just lower mines down to the pipeline, but you’d probably want divers to place them precisely. Ukraine owned offshore oil wells in the Sea of Azov until Putin took Crimea in 2014, so they probably have some experienced divers

    Little known fact- the bonus footage from DODGEBALL reveals the interesting backstory to Ben Stiller’s character, who turns out to be a PTSD-suffering former NAVY SEAL. It all makes sense now! Stiller must have passed along all the method-acty wisdom he’d gleaned to Zelensky when the two ran into each other at the TEEN VOGUE GRAMMY afterparty. Plausible deniability meets socially aware glamour. Brilliant! Plus you know the covert strategic maritime operational prowess of any country that would stoop to using such a faggy DISNEY LITTLE MERMAID pastel blue in their national colors must be fierce. And all their military units have tridents incorporated in their emblems, even the entirely land-based neo-Nazi paramilitary POW castration battalions.

    You’d expect the US to have been forewarned of this development, but it is a totally discredited trope that we are on pace to give the Ukrainians $100 billion this year. In fact, that is $25 billion more than what has actually been given and $25 billion is a lot of money! Thinks of the amount of military intelligence that can NOT be gathered for negative $25 billion!

  104. @RealnessRealWar
    Is this Cochran guy still relevant? Was so wrong about Covid, cannot trust him anymore. I liked him once, but his hybris is his ruin.

    Replies: @Loyalty Over IQ Worship, @Anonymous

    You are the second or third person to say this, which I find strange because he wasn’t wrong.

  105. @HA
    The CIA warned Germany about attacks on the pipelines back in the summer. Presumably they had a suspect in mind, and that would stack the odds against this being Ukraine or Poland. Because if it were either of the latter, someone in Germany or the US would have dropped them a line saying "we're on to you -- don't you dare."

    That leaves the US or the Russians. (And if it were the US, then even if it was nominally the Poles or the Ukrainians, the fact that they didn't get the big red NO light would imply they had US backing and/or approval so they're still the ones behind it.) If it were the US, then it would have been dumb to warn the Germans, but the conspiracy theorists can always say that's precisely how the US planned to shift blame from themselves. Sounds weak to me, but there's no arguing with people like that.

    Maybe once the investigation is concluded, someone will have been revealed to be sloppy with regard to what was left behind. Then again, the conspiracy theorists will say someone simply planted the Russian monkey wrench near the explosion, or whatever.

    It could have also been some rogue faction somewhere stirring up trouble, or North Koreans, but I'd rank them all as dark horses.

    In any case, it makes no sense to run the analysis without factoring in the CIA warning (and how specifically it was worded as to who they were tapping in order to get the intel.)

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

    BERLIN, Sept 27 (Reuters) – The U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) had weeks ago warned Germany about possible attacks on gas pipelines in the Baltic Sea, German magazine Spiegel said on Tuesday, after gas leaks in Russia pipelines to Germany were reported.

    The German government received the CIA tip in summer, Spiegel reported, citing unnamed sources, adding that Berlin assumes a targeted attack on Nord Stream 1 and 2 pipelines.

    (1) unnamed source is accurate: CIA giving German ally heads up so they can prep logistically and politically while maintaining plausible deniability for planned US attack

    (2) unnamed source is accurate: CIA giving Germany heads up while identity of suspect concealed for political reasons

    (3) unnamed source is lying: post-event attempt to use incident to shift public opinion in Germany

    (4) unnamed source is inaccurate for whatever reason

    (5) unnamed source doesn’t exist and story is made up

    As with Russiagate, being a spook-leak-watcher is only going to make you a dupe for various kinds of misinformation, and a truer guide to events is to look at verifiable evidence and consider it in context of each player’s self-interest and historical behavior.

  106. @Jack D
    @Cagey Beast

    Yes. Because if you light your neighbor's car on fire it's a causus belli and he is going to go to war against you (call the cops). But if you light your own car on fire (and maintain plausible deniability that someone else did it), it's not.

    I can't say that it makes a tremendous amount of sense that Putin blew up his own pipeline, but all indicators (the usual unz.com conspiracy theories aside) point to Russia having done it - they had the means and opportunity. So he must have had his reasons.

    In case you haven't noticed, Putin is now in desperation mode. The Russian Army is a shambles. He is grabbing old men off the street and sending them to the front without training - this is Germany 1945 level desperation. He is going to annex part of Ukraine based upon a sham referendum that NO ONE outside of Russia, even Putin's allies, recognizes. Hundreds of thousands of Russia's best and brightest are getting out of the country any way that they can and are probably never coming back. Domestic protests and even violence are breaking out. It's a royal friggin' mess, no matter how much copium you take.

    Desperate times call for desperate measures. One possibility is that this is Putin's signal to Germany (and to himself) that he has crossed the Rubicon and burned his bridges behind him. There is no making up possible anymore even if the Germans want it. It's never going back to the old way even if the Germans press Ukraine to make a deal. Putin is turning his back on Europe and letting his inner Mongol fly!

    Putin has his back to the corner but he's not ready to throw in the towel (losing this war is for him game, set, match - there is no home for retired dictators). He is going to keep trying whatever he can come up with to keep his opponents off balance. If some of it seems a little crazy, all the better. He has told us that he is "not bluffing" about using nukes either.

    Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic, @BB753, @Citizen of a Silly Country, @HA, @Bardon Kaldian

    Jack D, stop reading the NY times! Not only is it expensive to read but you know it’s all BS.

  107. @The Anti-Gnostic
    @Jack D

    If Vlad the Bad wanted to stop the spice all he had to do was turn a few gate valves.

    It was the US Navy SEALs. They have a whole command devoted to these operations. The Baltic is a big pond and this would be a walk in the park for them.

    Replies: @Jack D

    You’re missing the point. The valves were already off (in the case of Nord Stream 2 they were never even opened). But with the pipeline intact, he could turn them back on just as quickly as he turned them off. This was saying to the Germans (and to himself and to the oligarchs) that no deal is possible anymore. The divorce is permanent.

    Another possibility is that this was just a way of reducing Gazprom’s damages. Gazprom has contracts to deliver gas and if they don’t fulfill the contract there are damages. UNLESS the inability to deliver is due to “force majuere”. Gazprom turned off the gas several weeks agon on the basis that a turbine was broken but that excuse was starting to wear thin so they needed another excuse.

    • Replies: @Hunsdon
    @Jack D

    Why would he want to remove the possibility of future cooperation with the German regime, Jack? Is your assertion that Putin is "nailing his colors to the mast" to indicate that it's a fight to the death?

    Also---and this may be obvious, if so, please forgive me---but who would be assessing damages against Gazprom for nonperformance?

    Replies: @Jack D

    , @vinteuil
    @Jack D


    with the pipeline intact, [Putin] could turn them back on just as quickly as he turned them off. This was saying to the Germans (and to himself and to the oligarchs) that no deal is possible anymore. The divorce is permanent.
     
    Interesting theory.

    Obviously, whoever did this wanted to deprive Russia of the ability to pressure Germany by turning the gas spigots on or off at will.

    You think that Putin himself threw away his biggest bargaining card, so as to finalize the divorce between Russia & the West?

    As I say - interesting theory. Please do tell me more.

    Replies: @Jack D, @MGB

  108. @Peter Akuleyev
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    Even if the Ukes did this, they couldn’t have done it without NATO allowing it to happen.

    Of course they could. This is a shockingly easy stunt to pull off. Could even be some angry Lithuanians with a motorboat, some C4 and some diving gear.

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @NJ Transit Commuter, @PhysicistDave, @Loyalty Over IQ Worship, @Fluesterwitz, @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Dumbo

    You’re ability to lie and keep a straight face is impressive. Practice makes perfect, I guess.

  109. @Achmed E. Newman
    @Altai

    I have no argument with the rest of your comment, Altai, due to my knowing almost nothing about these Euro politics. On this:


    ... and also Denmark who have an environmental catastrophe off Bornholm)
     
    I don't know. It's nothing like an oil spill. Sea life may be affected. I didn't get all the details, but it looks like this leak was 10 or so miles east or southeast of the 227 mi^2 island of 40,000 people. I suppose if the wind starts blowing out of the east people will smell it (assuming the mercaptan, the ingredient for the smell, had already been added).

    I'd like to know if the Russians can drain out some of the (originally 11 billion ft^3) NG from their end and how long it will take to empty the pipeline(s). Can it be repaired before that time anyway?

    It doesn't sound like a catastrophe for Bornholm, though, except for possibly the fishing. As for the whole world, as I've read* in places, the emptying of the entire amount in into the atmosphere will result in an extra 1 part per 10 billion spread over the world's first 3 miles of atmosphere, per a quick calculation.

    BTW, they may as well light it up for fun at least. It'd be like a temporary large Bunsen Burner for the scientific community.

    .

    * yahoo, who I try to avoid, called it a Climate Calamity, which I gotta admit, has a great ring to it.

    Replies: @Alfa158, @David Davenport, @Reg Cæsar

    The pipelines including Nordstrom (sic) 2 are pressurized even when not delivering gas to offset water pressure. It seems reasonable that once they are ruptured seawater will flood them. I don’t know what effect the saltwater might have on the interior lining of the pipe or how difficult it would be to flush the pipelines back out again after the demolished sections are replaced.
    I also don’t know if the Russians even care anymore. They were delivering much less gas through Nordstrom 1 already, so maybe they will just shrug, tell the Europeans that they seem to have a problem there, good luck with that, and continue their turn to the East and Global South. You can only spend so much time trying to talk that mental patient down off the ledge before you tell them to go ahead and jump and then walk away.

    • Agree: Fluesterwitz
  110. @International Jew
    Are we looking at a new German-Russian nonaggression pact?

    Replies: @HammerJack, @Hypnotoad666

    Are we looking at a new German-Russian nonaggression pact?

    LOL. Except this time you couldn’t pay either side to take over any part of Poland.

    But seriously, it will be instructive to see how the Germans react to being played like this by their “allies.” The smart money would say there is simply no limit to their cuckery and they will stay the course. It must have occurred to some Germans, though, that if it they had their own independent foreign policy they could just buy cheap gas and be watm, rich and happy.

    • Agree: chris
    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Hypnotoad666

    That would require them to have a real military. It would require them to maybe sometimes send their sons (and daughters) to die. The Germans are like overaged teenagers living in Mom America's basement since 1945. They don't have to pay rent so they can spend all their money on a really nice hifi and a bunch of records. I wouldn't count on them moving out anytime soon.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Hypnotoad666

  111. @Jack D
    @Cagey Beast

    Yes. Because if you light your neighbor's car on fire it's a causus belli and he is going to go to war against you (call the cops). But if you light your own car on fire (and maintain plausible deniability that someone else did it), it's not.

    I can't say that it makes a tremendous amount of sense that Putin blew up his own pipeline, but all indicators (the usual unz.com conspiracy theories aside) point to Russia having done it - they had the means and opportunity. So he must have had his reasons.

    In case you haven't noticed, Putin is now in desperation mode. The Russian Army is a shambles. He is grabbing old men off the street and sending them to the front without training - this is Germany 1945 level desperation. He is going to annex part of Ukraine based upon a sham referendum that NO ONE outside of Russia, even Putin's allies, recognizes. Hundreds of thousands of Russia's best and brightest are getting out of the country any way that they can and are probably never coming back. Domestic protests and even violence are breaking out. It's a royal friggin' mess, no matter how much copium you take.

    Desperate times call for desperate measures. One possibility is that this is Putin's signal to Germany (and to himself) that he has crossed the Rubicon and burned his bridges behind him. There is no making up possible anymore even if the Germans want it. It's never going back to the old way even if the Germans press Ukraine to make a deal. Putin is turning his back on Europe and letting his inner Mongol fly!

    Putin has his back to the corner but he's not ready to throw in the towel (losing this war is for him game, set, match - there is no home for retired dictators). He is going to keep trying whatever he can come up with to keep his opponents off balance. If some of it seems a little crazy, all the better. He has told us that he is "not bluffing" about using nukes either.

    Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic, @BB753, @Citizen of a Silly Country, @HA, @Bardon Kaldian

    What’s terrifying is that you actually believe this nonsense. Indeed, you’ll believe anything that you think helps your people. I hope the world wakes up to this fact.

    • Agree: Hunsdon
  112. @MEH 0910
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    https://twitter.com/gcochran99/status/1574804590116995072

    Replies: @NJ Transit Commuter, @J.Ross, @Hypnotoad666

    Yesterday, Steve was advocating a theory that it was a Polish op. without U.S. knowledge. Today, it’s a Ukranian op. without U.S. knowledge. I guess you only lose social credit points on Twitter if you go against the U.S. Deep State directly.

    • Replies: @Celt Darnell
    @Hypnotoad666

    In fairness to Steve, he specifically stated “Personally, I don’t know who did it nor why.” He then went on to, er, notice, what people were saying. So I’m not sure he advocated anything.

    , @Corvinus
    @Hypnotoad666

    Everything is a conspiracy and psych ops. Even Mr. Sailer is in on it.

    Replies: @Hypnotoad666

  113. @Hypnotoad666
    @International Jew


    Are we looking at a new German-Russian nonaggression pact?
     
    LOL. Except this time you couldn't pay either side to take over any part of Poland.

    But seriously, it will be instructive to see how the Germans react to being played like this by their "allies." The smart money would say there is simply no limit to their cuckery and they will stay the course. It must have occurred to some Germans, though, that if it they had their own independent foreign policy they could just buy cheap gas and be watm, rich and happy.

    Replies: @Jack D

    That would require them to have a real military. It would require them to maybe sometimes send their sons (and daughters) to die. The Germans are like overaged teenagers living in Mom America’s basement since 1945. They don’t have to pay rent so they can spend all their money on a really nice hifi and a bunch of records. I wouldn’t count on them moving out anytime soon.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    @Jack D


    The Germans are like overaged teenagers living in Mom America’s basement since 1945. They don’t have to pay rent so they can spend all their money on a really nice hifi and a bunch of records. I wouldn’t count on them moving out anytime soon.
     
    That basement is liable to get pretty cold this winter.

    Replies: @Jack D

    , @Hypnotoad666
    @Jack D


    That would require them to have a real military.
     
    True. But they could accomplish that by getting some nukes. Perhaps as a "secret" that everyone actually knows about, like Israel. Or as a latent capability, like Japan (which apparently has all the parts ready to assemble in the event they need them). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_latency

    But that would currently be unthinkable due to the ghost of Adolph Hitler. It's amazing how that guy has managed to control the world from the grave for 75 years.

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa

  114. @Ron Unz
    @Pericles


    So what were the supposed Ukrainian logistics in order to accomplish this? In fully deniable secrecy, of course. Please describe the details. Night train to Warsaw, drag the equipment and munitions to Gdansk train, rent fishing boat in Gdansk, …
     
    I suppose it's remotely possible that the Ukrainians did it, but even leaving aside the logistics of an operation hundreds of miles from their own country, I wonder if they have the necessary military underwater technology. It hardly seems a trivial operation.

    So Poland seems a much more likely suspect. But Sikorski, their former Foreign Minister, who's very well plugged in with America's political/national security establishment (married to Anne Applebaum) explicitly "thanked" America. Anyway, if Poland (or Ukraine) did it, I can't believe they would have taken such a step without authorization/encouragement by powerful elements of the American government. Probably no one would have asked Biden since he's out to lunch, but surely senior American figures would have given a green-light or quite likely ordered the operation itself, whether it was carried out by Polish proxies or directly by American forces.

    Naturally the Washington Post and other Deep State controlled MSM immediately blamed the Russians for blowing up their own pipeline, presumably because they're just evil and insane. Probably more than half the American public will be stupid enough to believe that.

    Given the disastrous energy problems Germany and the rest of Europe are facing this winter, the human consequences could be horrendous, but our ruling Deep State elements don't care about that. My guess is that most Europeans will sooner or later understand that elements of the American government were probably the ones ultimately responsible, with gigantic geopolitical consequences very harmful to America's longterm national interests. So the attack was an extremely reckless and foolish decision.

    So far, I'd guess that many or most of the iSteve commenters are probably nodding their heads in agreement. But now comes the "touchy" part.

    This entire scenario seems remarkably similar to the one I've been suggesting for more than two years on the origins of Covid, namely that there's strong perhaps even overwhelming evidence that the global epidemic was due to an American biowarfare attack against China (and Iran):

    https://www.unz.com/page/covid-biowarfare-articles/

    Just as in this case, Trump himself was almost certainly out of the loop, but the attack was probably orchestrated by top figures in his administration, who immediately tried (somewhat successfully) to blame the Chinese for the viral epidemic in their own country.

    National leaders who take extremely reckless and foolish actions with disastrous longterm consequences for America's position in the world are more likely to repeat that sort of behavior.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Chrisnonymous, @Dmon, @Matt Buckalew, @H. L. M, @Corvinus, @Tex, @Buzz Mohawk, @Anonymous

    I don’t know enough about the situation to definitively conclude who sabotaged the pipeline, other than it definitely wasn’t the Russians (because the Washington Post says it definitely was the Russians). And I don’t want to derail the thread over to covid. But I think there is one thing that all people of good will can agree on, regardless of their personal or political opinions :
    Stop fu#&ing around with the damn bats!
    Surely, the world community can unite to agree that any country conducting research of any kind on bats will be instantly nuked.

    https://www.upi.com/Science_News/2022/09/23/vaccine-resistant-coronavirus-similar-covid-19-found-russian-bats/6451663981211/

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Dmon

    Bat research isn't going away, because the reason bats they have such fierce diseases is because they have an exceptionally powerful immune system. If humans can figure out the secret of this, it will be a huge medical breaththrough.

    , @Chrisnonymous
    @Dmon

    Plague bats!! Finally, the WMD Biden has been warning us about!!

  115. @bispora
    It's a big problem if Greg is also lying... The Ukrainians wouldn't light a match without US approval. There may have been Ukrainians on the dive team, but that the operation was conceived and executed by the CIA and the Pentagon is beyond doubt to anyone with a brain. It's a disgrace what you Americans are doing to us Europeans...

    Replies: @Citizen of a Silly Country, @HammerJack, @Alfa158, @JimDandy, @AnotherDad, @James J. O'Meara

    Yeah, if “The Ukrainians” are behind something in this conflict, that means America is behind it, which means America’s masters are behind it. But this:

    “that the operation was conceived and executed by the CIA and the Pentagon is beyond doubt to anyone with a brain.”

    is a vicious snub of the Mossad that will no doubt secretly infuriate many hasbara here. So, good job.

  116. No-one takes a piss in the Baltic without the US-UK knowing the colour of their urine.

    US-UK warning to continental Europe to stay in line?

    A dangerous game is being played.

  117. Covid + Russkies = Boomer brain meltdown

    • LOL: BB753
  118. @Daniel H
    @halfhearted


    They wouldn’t do such a thing without telling the US of their intention. Their entire economy is funded by them & will be for the foreseeable future. The US would probably have encouraged it.
     
    Your comment is based on the presumption that Zelensky & Co. are really in control.

    Replies: @HammerJack, @SunBakedSuburb

    Right. It’s a classic USN Seal operation using a specialized submersible launched from one of the many NATO sea assets or bases in the Baltic Sea. The commenters here who have theorized that this insane action is meant to bring Germany and the rest of Western Europe under the American boot are spot-on.

    Any American who stills supports sending globohomo puppet state Ukraine more American billions has got their head permanently lodged in their keister.

    • Replies: @Richard B
    @SunBakedSuburb


    The commenters here who have theorized that this insane action is meant to bring Germany and the rest of Western Europe under the American boot are spot-on.
     
    As are those who have theorized that the terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001 were meant to bring the United States and the rest of the Western world under the Israel boot.
  119. Ukraine could probably pull off this operation for a budget of, say, one million dollars.

    Yeah, right. Where would Ukraine get that kind of money?

  120. @botazefa
    The EU statement is on Zerohedge; https://www.zerohedge.com/commodities/damage-nord-stream-pipelines-unprecedented-may-have-been-sabotaged , as Sailer's well informed readers probably are aware.

    Biden famously said the US would end the pipeline.

    The Poles seem to be blaming the US.

    Is it considered an act of War to destroy a gas pipeline under the current circumstances? Will NATO blame Russia? Who will Germany blame?

    What will the narrative be?

    Replies: @Thelma Ringbaum, @Fluesterwitz

    Who will Germany blame?

    The Russians. Who else?

    • Replies: @botazefa
    @Fluesterwitz

    It's going to be very hard for the Germans to deny that the Nordstream sabotage was not targeted at them, regardless of who did it.

    The first NATO Secretary General, Lord Ismay, stated the organization’s goal was "to keep the Russians out, the Americans in, and the Germans down". Google has a lot of hits on that quote.

    Maybe the Ukraine makes more sense as a proxy war against Germany & Russia because they were starting to work together, which intentionally or accidentally challenges US hegemony in Europe.

    Replies: @Lockean Proviso

  121. The Ukrainians.

    That does seem to make the most sense.

    Given that were backing Ukraine in everything in they do, it makes perfect sense that the US did it.

    Then there is also the fact that two high US officials, Joe Biden and Victoria Newland, are on record saying that we would put the kibosh on Nordstream permanently.

  122. @Jack D
    @Hypnotoad666

    That would require them to have a real military. It would require them to maybe sometimes send their sons (and daughters) to die. The Germans are like overaged teenagers living in Mom America's basement since 1945. They don't have to pay rent so they can spend all their money on a really nice hifi and a bunch of records. I wouldn't count on them moving out anytime soon.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Hypnotoad666

    The Germans are like overaged teenagers living in Mom America’s basement since 1945. They don’t have to pay rent so they can spend all their money on a really nice hifi and a bunch of records. I wouldn’t count on them moving out anytime soon.

    That basement is liable to get pretty cold this winter.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Mr. Anon

    No it won't. German gas storage is 92% full. No one is going to freeze. Obviously there are going to be costs associated with replacing Russian gas but OMG the Germans will freeze to death is not one of them.

    Replies: @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Mr. Anon, @Zelo

  123. @Timur The Lame
    Probably a bridge too far, but the 2010 plane crash the took the life of the Polish president, his wife and several top military and religious leaders on their way to commemorate the Katyn massacre is apparently still a controversial and unresolved issue.

    In a Guardian article written 6 years after the crash interesting details emerge which mention all of the things presently in play in the Ukraine. For the record, Putin attended the president's funeral.

    I wonder if the Pollacks have the Chechen concept of revenge.

    Cheers-

    Replies: @TWS, @cliff arroyo

    Not really, there was recently a story in Poland pointing out the official “investigation” simply elminated any analysis (including those that they paid for) that said it was an accident (and that was most of them).

    I have no doubt putain _would_ have crashed the plane if he could and thought he had a reason to, but russians are bumblers and they couldn’t have kept it covered up… it would have been very obvious to even a casual observer, like Katyń.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @cliff arroyo

    Yes, it was an accident. We know that at the time of the crash the Polish president was in the cockpit, swearing at the pilot, calling him a coward, and ordering him to land IMMEDIATELY regardless of the danger.

    The pilot was a coward, yes, but not in this sense. He should have looked the president in the eye and told him "get out of MY COCKPIT or I'm going to throw you off MY PLANE, president or not."

    A plane, like a ship, can only have one commander, else things like this happen.

  124. I have to say, I’m deeply disappointed in the MEN of UNZ. Several dozen comments and it falls to me, the Hasbara shill, to mention Mossad. Sad!

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    @kaganovitch

    I see 115 JimDandy beat me to it. My faith is restored.

    , @Muggles
    @kaganovitch


    I have to say, I’m deeply disappointed in the MEN of UNZ. Several dozen comments and it falls to me, the Hasbara shill, to mention Mossad. Sad!
     
    Well, who's done the research on who was heavily invested in going long on LNG futures for winter European delivery?

    Surely someone can find some Jews in that crowd...

    (Does the Mossad have its own trading account? Quick, let's check the Daily Stormer!)
  125. @Jack D
    @Cagey Beast

    Yes. Because if you light your neighbor's car on fire it's a causus belli and he is going to go to war against you (call the cops). But if you light your own car on fire (and maintain plausible deniability that someone else did it), it's not.

    I can't say that it makes a tremendous amount of sense that Putin blew up his own pipeline, but all indicators (the usual unz.com conspiracy theories aside) point to Russia having done it - they had the means and opportunity. So he must have had his reasons.

    In case you haven't noticed, Putin is now in desperation mode. The Russian Army is a shambles. He is grabbing old men off the street and sending them to the front without training - this is Germany 1945 level desperation. He is going to annex part of Ukraine based upon a sham referendum that NO ONE outside of Russia, even Putin's allies, recognizes. Hundreds of thousands of Russia's best and brightest are getting out of the country any way that they can and are probably never coming back. Domestic protests and even violence are breaking out. It's a royal friggin' mess, no matter how much copium you take.

    Desperate times call for desperate measures. One possibility is that this is Putin's signal to Germany (and to himself) that he has crossed the Rubicon and burned his bridges behind him. There is no making up possible anymore even if the Germans want it. It's never going back to the old way even if the Germans press Ukraine to make a deal. Putin is turning his back on Europe and letting his inner Mongol fly!

    Putin has his back to the corner but he's not ready to throw in the towel (losing this war is for him game, set, match - there is no home for retired dictators). He is going to keep trying whatever he can come up with to keep his opponents off balance. If some of it seems a little crazy, all the better. He has told us that he is "not bluffing" about using nukes either.

    Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic, @BB753, @Citizen of a Silly Country, @HA, @Bardon Kaldian

    “I can’t say that it makes a tremendous amount of sense that Putin blew up his own pipeline,…”

    If the Russians did it, they presumably wanted to pin the blame on the US (or maybe the Poles or Ukrainians) and therefore they purposely chose a target where they would suffer a loss, so as to help shift the suspicion elsewhere. The fact that no one is taking credit for this indicates that it was designed to frame someone else.

    Had the perpetrators known that the CIA had already sussed out what was happening, they might have not done it (unless the CIA was likewise suspecting it was the Ukrainians or Poles, and that’s precisely the party that was being framed). Then again, the story about the CIA having tipped of the Germans is itself going to be regarded as just part of the CIA cover-up by some, as opposed to something that actually happened.

    If the investigation doesn’t resolve the matter, then eventually, someone may still take credit for this, or spill the beans, but that might not happen for another couple of decades.

  126. my opinion of Cochran keeps going down.

    obviously the US used underwater demolitions to blow up the pipeline. the objective is to force Germany to do what the US wants.

    Germany will not be allowed to communicate with Russia on their own, possibly backing out of rigid US doctrine in this conflict. if the energy situation on the ground in Germany gets bad this winter, no changing direction. Germany is not allowed to have that option.

    so, a recession in Germany. higher electricity prices. lower production of manufactured stuff. less aluminum, less steel. Germany is a vassal state. it will do what the US wants.

    UKR forces do not really have the capability to do this operation.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @prime noticer

    If you think aluminum or steel are a significant part of Germany's GDP, kill yourself.

    Germany's economic strength is in its financial banking economy not it's tiny steel mills.

  127. @Loyalty Over IQ Worship
    People were speculating about this 5 minutes after the attack. This is hardly some gee whiz theory.

    The point is, the USA would have known about it. And NATO has been giving intelligence support to every other attack on Russia, so ....

    Anyway, Greg Cochran blew his credibility with his insane Covid rantings.

    Replies: @TWS, @Mr. Anon

    Anyway, Greg Cochran blew his credibility with his insane Covid rantings.

    A lot of people who staked their claim as being contrarians damaged thier credibility by uncritically falling for the establishment COVID narrative. Steve was one of them too.

    I think perhaps there is some truth to the generational angle. Boomers especially still see their country with this rosy glow and can’t ever imagine that we might be “the bad guys”. Even boomers who marched against the Vietnam war. Even those ones who have assimilated the new establishment narrative that America was built on nothing but slavery, hatred, racism, and every kind of injustice, still won’t entertain the idea that our government might proceed from malign purposes.

    As for commenter Jack D – well, he’ll always have Russia.

  128. @Hypnotoad666
    @MEH 0910

    Yesterday, Steve was advocating a theory that it was a Polish op. without U.S. knowledge. Today, it's a Ukranian op. without U.S. knowledge. I guess you only lose social credit points on Twitter if you go against the U.S. Deep State directly.

    Replies: @Celt Darnell, @Corvinus

    In fairness to Steve, he specifically stated “Personally, I don’t know who did it nor why.” He then went on to, er, notice, what people were saying. So I’m not sure he advocated anything.

  129. ok, so ‘This isn’t that hard, Ukrainian guys definitely could have done this.’

    nah. they would have done this a while ago if they had the capability.

  130. @Jack D
    @The Anti-Gnostic

    You're missing the point. The valves were already off (in the case of Nord Stream 2 they were never even opened). But with the pipeline intact, he could turn them back on just as quickly as he turned them off. This was saying to the Germans (and to himself and to the oligarchs) that no deal is possible anymore. The divorce is permanent.

    Another possibility is that this was just a way of reducing Gazprom's damages. Gazprom has contracts to deliver gas and if they don't fulfill the contract there are damages. UNLESS the inability to deliver is due to "force majuere". Gazprom turned off the gas several weeks agon on the basis that a turbine was broken but that excuse was starting to wear thin so they needed another excuse.

    Replies: @Hunsdon, @vinteuil

    Why would he want to remove the possibility of future cooperation with the German regime, Jack? Is your assertion that Putin is “nailing his colors to the mast” to indicate that it’s a fight to the death?

    Also—and this may be obvious, if so, please forgive me—but who would be assessing damages against Gazprom for nonperformance?

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Hunsdon

    Gazprom has contracts. Usually these contracts provide for arbitration or trial in London or some such. Believe it or not, the Soviets (and the Putin regime) have always been very careful to observe the terms of bond covenants, contracts, etc. The last time they defaulted was on the Czarist bonds but they always paid their own. Now right now due to the war it might not be possible to get Gazprom to pay but at some point the war will be over, Gazprom has properties and bank accounts that could be seized, etc.

    Yes, "nailing his colors to the mast" is one possibility. Also if you are not an invited guest at the dinner party, you might feel that your next best option is to flip the dinner table over.

    Whatever Putin was doing up until now was clearly not working so he felt that he would reshuffle the deck a little and maybe his next hand would come up better.

    Maybe he feels that his message ("Ukraine is a vital interest for Russia and we're not giving up") was not taken seriously enough by the Europeans and he wanted to show them that he was REALLY serious (short of setting off a nuke) but in a deniable way. Nice pipelines you got Europeans. Be a shame if anything happened to them. Everything else he has done in recent days (the mobilization, the referendums) is also intended to send the message that "we're not throwing in the towel".

    Now, it may be too late for Putin to save his war - there has been too much damage to his military infrastructure and throwing a bunch of untrained conscripts equipped with antique weapons is not going to turn the tide. But that doesn't mean that he won't try because he doesn't really have a lot of other alternatives that end with his head still attached to his neck.

  131. I think it was a joint Ukrainian-Polish operation.

    Aside strategy & tactics, it sent emotional message: Germans- go phuck yourself.

    • Replies: @Muggles
    @Bardon Kaldian


    I think it was a joint Ukrainian-Polish operation.
     
    Okay, great set up.

    Now what's the punch line?
  132. @Anonymous
    @Coemgen


    Who said they were going to stop the pipelines?
     
    eh, Biden?

    https://youtu.be/OS4O8rGRLf8

    Replies: @MGB

    nudelman publicly announced in January that if the Russians invaded Ukraine, Nord2 would be stopped, one way or another. i agree with j helmer, that it was the poles, with US assistance and connivance. (there was some deepwater military exercises taking place in the summer in the same location as the attacks) this is a play against russia and germany, and with the euro and pound sinking like a rock, i assume that germany will be in post-ww1 straits soon enough, the investment bank crowd (both internal and international) buying up distressed assets at bargain basement prices. i think that the pound and dollar are at parity, which i don’t recall ever in my adult life. little israel in the ukraine, the cream of draft age male ukes ground to pulp, poland the US attack dog until it’s outlived its usefullness, the EU in shambles, and a pissed off germany with the greens pushing for war (no political will for peace there, outside of ineffectual protests, and die linke calling for the expulsion of a party member MP for questioning the strategy of alienating russia), what could go wrong? i don’t know if any financial types are aware of any pound movements before truss announced her seemingly intentional sinking of the currency. i know that there were allegations that some of her friends got prior notice of the intended economic plan (lower taxes, raise spending) and made a ‘small fortune’ off of currency speculation.

  133. @NJ Transit Commuter
    @Peter Akuleyev

    According to Reuters the leaks occurred at a depth of 80-110 m. I’m no expert on deep sea diving, but I suspect blowing up pipelines at that depth is beyond the capability of Lithuanians in a motorboat with some C4.

    Replies: @Adept, @MGB

    I suspect blowing up pipelines at that depth is beyond the capability of Lithuanians in a motorboat with some C4

    .

    and look at the pipeline itself. tons of steel and poured concrete per length. by the looks of it, you could drive a tractor trailer full bore at a section of the pipe and it would withstand it. this is a high tech operation, not some guy in a wet suit and a hand grenade.

    • Agree: Liza
  134. @Hunsdon
    @Jack D

    Why would he want to remove the possibility of future cooperation with the German regime, Jack? Is your assertion that Putin is "nailing his colors to the mast" to indicate that it's a fight to the death?

    Also---and this may be obvious, if so, please forgive me---but who would be assessing damages against Gazprom for nonperformance?

    Replies: @Jack D

    Gazprom has contracts. Usually these contracts provide for arbitration or trial in London or some such. Believe it or not, the Soviets (and the Putin regime) have always been very careful to observe the terms of bond covenants, contracts, etc. The last time they defaulted was on the Czarist bonds but they always paid their own. Now right now due to the war it might not be possible to get Gazprom to pay but at some point the war will be over, Gazprom has properties and bank accounts that could be seized, etc.

    Yes, “nailing his colors to the mast” is one possibility. Also if you are not an invited guest at the dinner party, you might feel that your next best option is to flip the dinner table over.

    Whatever Putin was doing up until now was clearly not working so he felt that he would reshuffle the deck a little and maybe his next hand would come up better.

    Maybe he feels that his message (“Ukraine is a vital interest for Russia and we’re not giving up”) was not taken seriously enough by the Europeans and he wanted to show them that he was REALLY serious (short of setting off a nuke) but in a deniable way. Nice pipelines you got Europeans. Be a shame if anything happened to them. Everything else he has done in recent days (the mobilization, the referendums) is also intended to send the message that “we’re not throwing in the towel”.

    Now, it may be too late for Putin to save his war – there has been too much damage to his military infrastructure and throwing a bunch of untrained conscripts equipped with antique weapons is not going to turn the tide. But that doesn’t mean that he won’t try because he doesn’t really have a lot of other alternatives that end with his head still attached to his neck.

  135. @Dmon
    @Ron Unz

    I don't know enough about the situation to definitively conclude who sabotaged the pipeline, other than it definitely wasn't the Russians (because the Washington Post says it definitely was the Russians). And I don't want to derail the thread over to covid. But I think there is one thing that all people of good will can agree on, regardless of their personal or political opinions :
    Stop fu#&ing around with the damn bats!
    Surely, the world community can unite to agree that any country conducting research of any kind on bats will be instantly nuked.

    https://www.upi.com/Science_News/2022/09/23/vaccine-resistant-coronavirus-similar-covid-19-found-russian-bats/6451663981211/

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Chrisnonymous

    Bat research isn’t going away, because the reason bats they have such fierce diseases is because they have an exceptionally powerful immune system. If humans can figure out the secret of this, it will be a huge medical breaththrough.

  136. @Altai
    The key thing about NordStream 2 is it's unnecessary from a practical standpoint, it was necessary from a geopolitical stand point, it meant Germany no longer had to deal with the potential for Poland or Ukraine to block or threaten to block the flow of gas.

    Therefore both countries lose transit fees but more importantly they lose political control and leverage.

    Ukraine could not have done this. They do not have the expertise or access to the Baltic sea to sabotage a pipeline 70m under water. Meanwhile we see the breakpoints are all close to the Prussian shore. It was the Poles. The only question is, did the US know or sanction it and if they sanctioned it, help them. Maybe somebody could say Ukraine ordered it or suggested it but the practical action of doing it would have to fall to Poland and they'd have to agree.

    The Poles in particular have been inveighing about NS2 it from the start.

    https://kafkadesk.org/2021/05/21/poland-angered-by-us-president-bidens-nord-stream-ii-decision

    Poland has reacted angrily to President Joe Biden’s decision to waive US sanctions on Nord Stream II, warning the move could threaten energy security across Central and Eastern Europe.

    “The information is definitely not positive from the security point of view, as we know perfectly that Nord Stream II is not only a business project – it is mostly a geopolitical project,” said Piotr Muller, a spokesman for the Polish government.
     

    Now Sikorski posted the clip of Biden suggesting that the US would stop NS2 no matter what Germany had to say about it, ie by force. More damning from a US perspective is this clip of Victoria Nuland, the psychopathic pointwoman neocon on provoking Russia saying it more explicitly.

    https://twitter.com/azmilitary1/status/1574767709258137606

    But Germany has iced NS2, so blatant violent action was unnecessary and escalatory in a way the neocons don't seem to want. (If this was the US it'd be a very serious act of aggression towards Germany and also Denmark who have an environmental catastrophe off Bornholm) They're happy with this being a proxy war and do not want to confront the Russians military directly which things like this increase and without a plausible payoff in terms lengthening the war, Germany was already as hostile and non-cooperative with Russia as it could be and there was no serious talk of getting NS2 up and running.

    Remember, the neocons agenda is to bleed Russia and have it commit military resources there for as long as possible to stop them intervening in Syria or anywhere in the Middle East. And they're getting that with (Free to them) Ukrainian lives and territory, no need to raise the temperature and risk a nuclear war with Russia.

    Sikorski is not currently in the Polish cabinet so we can assume he doesn't really know what happened.

    For example, Tony Blinken made this cryptic statement about what happened which is differently to the usual comment you'd expect for a US denial of US actions. He said if it was sabotage, that it'd be "in no ones interest". IE, the Poles did this on their own and we don't condone it.

    https://twitter.com/kylieatwood/status/1574791417049882626

    This would not be the first time the Poles and the Baltic countries have taken actions to increase the tension and bring things closer to a direct NATO war with Russia. The first big isntance was the promises to give NATO Soviet era aircraft directly to Ukraine which also had the otherwise anti-Russia neocon Blinken running around desperately trying to not have things boil over. Then we had Lithuania causing the crisis by threatening to blockade land supplies to Kaliningrad which had EU leaders desperately try to defuse.

    It could also be, as Steve noted, that Sikorski is trying to heighten tensions by deliberately falsely implicating the US as main party or collaborator.

    That it was a Poles seems even more likely given an anti-Russian narrative has been implied (NYT style with the headline) but not spoken outright and indeed there seems to be some nervousness in the West about it. This is, like all the other rogue escalation attempts by Poland and the Baltics, treated as a serious and not welcome development without the same propaganda coverage.

    Although one other suspect or accomplice raises it's head merely because the UK intel mouthpiece (A role similar to that of the WaPo in the US) The Telegraph did try to blame it on the Russians early on.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/09/27/russian-sabotage-feared-unprecedented-damage-nord-stream-gas

    Though this may have been a result of early reporting which didn't make clear the nature of the 'faults'.

    So we have motive, ability and a modus operandi (Crazy rogue escalatory actions) for Poland and not for anybody else. These kinds of crazy rogue actions are why I keep saying if this does go to a NATO war Poland will be the one who did it.

    With the destruction of NS2 Germany is now hostage to Poland in terms of keeping this state of unpeace with Russia. It can now only be supplied with the industry saving gas from the pipelines through Ukraine and Poland.

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon, @Coemgen, @Pericles, @YetAnotherAnon, @Achmed E. Newman, @BB753, @AnotherDad, @Sam Malone

    The key thing about NordStream 2 is it’s unnecessary from a practical standpoint, it was necessary from a geopolitical stand point, it meant Germany no longer had to deal with the potential for Poland or Ukraine to block or threaten to block the flow of gas.

    Therefore both countries lose transit fees but more importantly they lose political control and leverage.

    This.

    I’d spin it differently–Russia wants to pry Germany loose from any dependency on Ukraine/Poland, so its relations with its western flank–including dicking around there–are independent of selling gas to the Germans. This is why the project was broadly opposed in Europe as violating the whole European solidarity, group hug thing.

    You only wish there would have been as much push back against Merkel trashing European solidarity/interests in something orders of magnitude more important.

    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    @AnotherDad

    And you just argued the Germans should strive for as much energy independence as possible. Being dependent on chronically dysfunctional and corrupt Ukraine and surly Poland just added avoidable complications.

    , @Jack D
    @AnotherDad


    Russia wants to pry Germany loose from any dependency on Ukraine/Poland, so its relations with its western flank–including dicking around there–are independent of selling gas to the Germans.
     
    Well, WANTED - past tense. They can kiss that goodbye for the foreseeable future. Yes, that was the whole idea of the Nord Streams, from both sides. Germany wanted to position itself as a bridge between E and W (many older E. Germans grew up at a time when E. Germany had good relations with Russia, spoke Russian, etc.) rather than being firmly tied to the Anglo-Saxons. Poland and Ukraine are always going to have tense relationships with Russia but there could be German-Russian friendship. This goes back to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact if not longer. The gas would always flow regardless of what was going on between Russia and Ukraine or Poland. They are always going to have their crazy tribal issues with the Russians but there was serious $ to be made in Russian-German trade so we could forget about all that historic baggage and move forward with a VERY profitable partnership.

    Putin probably thought that he had bought enough friends inside Russia (e.g. Schröder) that he could invade Ukraine and the Germans would stick with Russia and all that warm, wonderful gas. He really misunderestimated the emotional appeal of Ukraine as the underdog, etc. not to mention that the Americans turned the screws on the Germans and told them to go along in no uncertain terms. Now Putin the judo master has been thrown a few times but he thinks that he's still in the match and is scrambling furiously for Plan B, C, D, etc.

  137. I don’t know why Steve takes this Cochran clown seriously. (Then again, ISteve also takes Yglesias and Klein seriously).

    Cochran was completely wrong on Covid, he was completely wrong on almost everything, what is his claim to fame? Some theory about homosexuality being caused by a virus. LOL. It’s an absurd theory, and fetal issues and/or sexual abuse are more likely candidates.

    Also, as other smart commenters pointed out, saying “the Ukraine did it” is the same as saying “the US did it.” The Ukrainians wouldn’t do such a big move without the approval (and assistance) of the U.S./NATO.

    The Ukrainians are not independent actors. Does anyone really think that the Ukraine has all that pull in international circles? That the power people at the EU and DC really care about “Ukrainian freedom and Ukrainian democracy” and the poor people living in the Donbass (who are majority Russian anyway)?

    Look at it this way: Zelensky is a puppet, he answers to somebody, and his constituency is NOT the Ukrainians. (His parents just bought a nice house with pool in Tel Aviv, btw)

  138. @Mr. Anon
    @Jack D


    The Germans are like overaged teenagers living in Mom America’s basement since 1945. They don’t have to pay rent so they can spend all their money on a really nice hifi and a bunch of records. I wouldn’t count on them moving out anytime soon.
     
    That basement is liable to get pretty cold this winter.

    Replies: @Jack D

    No it won’t. German gas storage is 92% full. No one is going to freeze. Obviously there are going to be costs associated with replacing Russian gas but OMG the Germans will freeze to death is not one of them.

    • Replies: @Citizen of a Silly Country
    @Jack D

    The issue isn't this winter. It's the increased cost of energy and the viability of heavy manufacturing in Germany. German industry needs cheap energy to be competitive. Crank up their energy costs and they either have to 1) shut down; 2) relocate; or 3) reduce German worker compensation.

    , @Mr. Anon
    @Jack D

    I didn't say they were going to freeze to death. I said they were going to be colder. And they will be. They're mandating lower thermostat settings, not only in public buildings but also in rental units. I'm sure some dilligent officials will set them lower in private residences too. And the nice thing about that, from a government's point of view, is that having established the precedent that they decide how warm or cold you will be, they will undoubtedly wish to continue to do so.

    Replies: @Jack D

    , @Zelo
    @Jack D


    but OMG the Germans will freeze to death
     
    Oh come on Jack, you don't really think Germans freezing to death is a bad thing do you?
  139. @Steve Sailer
    @The Alarmist

    "They say the US did it;"

    "They" in this case is a former Polish foreign minister who is highly alienated from the current Polish ruling party, despite both being more or less right of center. So unless the current Polish foreign minister starts echoing Sikorski about American culpability, I'd not take Sikorski's comment too seriously.

    Replies: @Dumbo, @Allan, @The Alarmist

    LOL. An ex-foreign minister, and someone who is married to “Russia specialist” Anne “Deep State” Applebaum. Sure, he doesn’t know what’s going on and he should be taken seriously… Hey everybody, it’s just the “Not So Great Reset”, move on, nothing to see here.

  140. @cliff arroyo
    @The Alarmist

    Poland has no intention of taking over western Ukraine, that's a russian disinfo talking point with no relation to reality.

    It's hard for supporters of russian imperialism to understand that some countries are just over that very dumb idea....

    Replies: @The Alarmist

    I’m sure I’ll remember this when the Polish flag is flying over the Reichstag.

  141. @Peter Akuleyev
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    Even if the Ukes did this, they couldn’t have done it without NATO allowing it to happen.

    Of course they could. This is a shockingly easy stunt to pull off. Could even be some angry Lithuanians with a motorboat, some C4 and some diving gear.

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @NJ Transit Commuter, @PhysicistDave, @Loyalty Over IQ Worship, @Fluesterwitz, @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Dumbo

    Look, another “armchair specialist” giving his moronic opinion about things he knows nothing about. Or maybe he’s just another CIA troll.

  142. @AnotherDad
    @Altai


    The key thing about NordStream 2 is it’s unnecessary from a practical standpoint, it was necessary from a geopolitical stand point, it meant Germany no longer had to deal with the potential for Poland or Ukraine to block or threaten to block the flow of gas.

    Therefore both countries lose transit fees but more importantly they lose political control and leverage.
     
    This.

    I'd spin it differently--Russia wants to pry Germany loose from any dependency on Ukraine/Poland, so its relations with its western flank--including dicking around there--are independent of selling gas to the Germans. This is why the project was broadly opposed in Europe as violating the whole European solidarity, group hug thing.

    You only wish there would have been as much push back against Merkel trashing European solidarity/interests in something orders of magnitude more important.

    Replies: @Cagey Beast, @Jack D

    And you just argued the Germans should strive for as much energy independence as possible. Being dependent on chronically dysfunctional and corrupt Ukraine and surly Poland just added avoidable complications.

  143. @AnotherDad
    @Altai


    The key thing about NordStream 2 is it’s unnecessary from a practical standpoint, it was necessary from a geopolitical stand point, it meant Germany no longer had to deal with the potential for Poland or Ukraine to block or threaten to block the flow of gas.

    Therefore both countries lose transit fees but more importantly they lose political control and leverage.
     
    This.

    I'd spin it differently--Russia wants to pry Germany loose from any dependency on Ukraine/Poland, so its relations with its western flank--including dicking around there--are independent of selling gas to the Germans. This is why the project was broadly opposed in Europe as violating the whole European solidarity, group hug thing.

    You only wish there would have been as much push back against Merkel trashing European solidarity/interests in something orders of magnitude more important.

    Replies: @Cagey Beast, @Jack D

    Russia wants to pry Germany loose from any dependency on Ukraine/Poland, so its relations with its western flank–including dicking around there–are independent of selling gas to the Germans.

    Well, WANTED – past tense. They can kiss that goodbye for the foreseeable future. Yes, that was the whole idea of the Nord Streams, from both sides. Germany wanted to position itself as a bridge between E and W (many older E. Germans grew up at a time when E. Germany had good relations with Russia, spoke Russian, etc.) rather than being firmly tied to the Anglo-Saxons. Poland and Ukraine are always going to have tense relationships with Russia but there could be German-Russian friendship. This goes back to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact if not longer. The gas would always flow regardless of what was going on between Russia and Ukraine or Poland. They are always going to have their crazy tribal issues with the Russians but there was serious $ to be made in Russian-German trade so we could forget about all that historic baggage and move forward with a VERY profitable partnership.

    Putin probably thought that he had bought enough friends inside Russia (e.g. Schröder) that he could invade Ukraine and the Germans would stick with Russia and all that warm, wonderful gas. He really misunderestimated the emotional appeal of Ukraine as the underdog, etc. not to mention that the Americans turned the screws on the Germans and told them to go along in no uncertain terms. Now Putin the judo master has been thrown a few times but he thinks that he’s still in the match and is scrambling furiously for Plan B, C, D, etc.

    • Thanks: Johann Ricke
  144. @bispora
    It's a big problem if Greg is also lying... The Ukrainians wouldn't light a match without US approval. There may have been Ukrainians on the dive team, but that the operation was conceived and executed by the CIA and the Pentagon is beyond doubt to anyone with a brain. It's a disgrace what you Americans are doing to us Europeans...

    Replies: @Citizen of a Silly Country, @HammerJack, @Alfa158, @JimDandy, @AnotherDad, @James J. O'Meara

    There may have been Ukrainians on the dive team, but that the operation was conceived and executed by the CIA and the Pentagon is beyond doubt to anyone with a brain. It’s a disgrace what you Americans are doing to us Europeans…

    War and geostrategy really does excite the male mind. Nothing wrong with that. It’s our nature and strategizing is important.

    But a recurring theme in Sailer’s Ukraine war threads is all the people–guys–o so self-confident in their assertions … about a war that they can’t possibly have much certainty about.

    I can think of a least a handful of plausible suspects with some interest or another–starting with Ukrainians or Poles but heck even running on to Russians if they aren’t going to sell gas this winter and want to blame someone else.

    What I do know is … I do not know. And pretty darn sure no one else here actually knows either.

    • Agree: AKAHorace
    • Replies: @Hunsdon
    @AnotherDad

    Thanks, AD. Everyone seems so certain . . . and somehow the things they are sure about all line up nicely with their preferences. The pro-Russian side is convinced everything is going swimmingly for Russia. The pro-Ukrainian side is convinced everything is going swimmingly for Ukraine.

    What did Socrates say? “I am wiser than that man. Neither of us probably knows anything worthwhile; but he thinks he does when he does not, and I do not and do not think I do.”

    , @Jack D
    @AnotherDad

    Yeah, it really amazes me that some people here were absolutely CERTAIN (based on zero evidence) that this was done by Ukraine/Poland/the US from the moment that they heard what happened. It didn't even occur to them that there could be any other possibility. Sometimes they skip right to the condemnation ("Isn't terrible what the US did - why do we always do terrible things?"), skipping over the proof entirely and in other cases they post all manner of specious "proof" that isn't proof at all - things Biden said in February, military exercises that were over months ago.

    I don't have proof that Russia did this either but I don't think that they can automatically be ruled out just because the US is always EEEVIL.

    Here is more on the the "force majeure" angle :

    https://twitter.com/maria_drutska/status/1575135590684807172?s=46&t=lQtOhgjb_gJVpMnPI-UaUg

    Obviously she is not disinterested but that doesn't mean that she is wrong.

    Replies: @Cagey Beast, @BB753, @Chrisnonymous

  145. @Jack D
    @Mr. Anon

    No it won't. German gas storage is 92% full. No one is going to freeze. Obviously there are going to be costs associated with replacing Russian gas but OMG the Germans will freeze to death is not one of them.

    Replies: @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Mr. Anon, @Zelo

    The issue isn’t this winter. It’s the increased cost of energy and the viability of heavy manufacturing in Germany. German industry needs cheap energy to be competitive. Crank up their energy costs and they either have to 1) shut down; 2) relocate; or 3) reduce German worker compensation.

  146. @Thelma Ringbaum
    @botazefa

    To not make it act of War, all parties involved will keep quiet (or blame Putin for he is a scapegoat now) . But covert retaliations are likely, and scary: the world can slip into an undeclared terrorist war.

    Replies: @botazefa

    It was helpful to me to re-acquaint myself with how FDR led the US into World War II. Michael Tracey has great recent coverage on this topic, which I strongly recommend. Maybe all that talk early in Biden’s Presidency about him being like FDR had nothing to do with the New Deal and everything to do with a new war to hobble Russia and kneecap Germany (NATO’s founding purpose, apparently).

    https://mtracey.substack.com/p/a-fairy-tale-version-of-world-war

    It looks to me like WW3 started the moment Biden was elected. Or, perhaps the day Victoria Nuland was born.

  147. @Fluesterwitz
    @botazefa


    Who will Germany blame?
     
    The Russians. Who else?

    Replies: @botazefa

    It’s going to be very hard for the Germans to deny that the Nordstream sabotage was not targeted at them, regardless of who did it.

    The first NATO Secretary General, Lord Ismay, stated the organization’s goal was “to keep the Russians out, the Americans in, and the Germans down”. Google has a lot of hits on that quote.

    Maybe the Ukraine makes more sense as a proxy war against Germany & Russia because they were starting to work together, which intentionally or accidentally challenges US hegemony in Europe.

    • Replies: @Lockean Proviso
    @botazefa

    Meanwhile China rises higher and Africans breed and migrate as whites slaughter and sabotage one another.

  148. @Peter Akuleyev
    The alternative theory, and more credible, is that the Russians did this as a warning to Poland. The key to the exercise is how easy it was to pull off. Today NordStream, which isn't delivering anyway, goes down but tomorrow the new Baltic Pipe could go down just as easily.

    If it was Russia, they got the added benefit of Sikorski making a fool of himself.

    Replies: @Cagey Beast, @Mr Mox

    Before reading the comments, I decided to take a mental note of which commenters would blame Russia in a predictably Pavlovian way . Their opinions can then safely be ignored in the future…

  149. @BB753
    @Altai

    Just because Poles or Ukrainians wanted to blow the pipeline up doesn't mean that they did it. I posit only the Royal Navy had the means to do it. Yeah, the UK Navy.

    Replies: @Lockean Proviso

    If the U.K. sent Boris Johnson to Ukraine to talk to Zelensky to blow up a potential peace deal in which Russia would withdraw troops in exchange for Ukraine’s renunciation of any future NATO membership, I wouldn’t put blowing up a pipeline past them.

    https://www.commondreams.org/news/2022/05/06/boris-johnson-pressured-zelenskyy-ditch-peace-talks-russia-ukrainian-paper

    • Agree: BB753
  150. @Pericles
    So what were the supposed Ukrainian logistics in order to accomplish this? In fully deniable secrecy, of course. Please describe the details. Night train to Warsaw, drag the equipment and munitions to Gdansk train, rent fishing boat in Gdansk, ...

    If we take this flight of fancy somewhat seriously, I suppose that means Denmark or perhaps Germany could invoke uhhh clause 5 or whatever to marshal the full might of NATO against Ukrainian aggression. One for all and all for one.

    Replies: @PhysicistDave, @Thelma Ringbaum, @Ron Unz, @AnotherDad

    So what were the supposed Ukrainian logistics in order to accomplish this? In fully deniable secrecy, of course. Please describe the details. Night train to Warsaw, drag the equipment and munitions to Gdansk train, rent fishing boat in Gdansk, …

    Pericles, while I agree it is much easier for the Poles–they’re right there–you’re implying this is some sort of difficult operation to pull off.

    I’m not a demolitions guy, but as just an “intelligent reader”, this sort of thing looks like it takes some decently trained guys, some explosives and a couple of these remote submersible drones. Outside the explosives gear the modern treasure hunter uses. Hardly some super complex operation.

    ~~

    The notable thing about modernity is just how vulnerable a lot of the key infrastructure is–pipelines, undersea cables, transmission towers …

    For a nation to be seriously energy dependent on a pipeline that pretty much anyone can disable in a cheapo operation that even a small rogue group–not to mention any hostile nation–could throw together is ridiculous.

    All this stuff is orders of magnitude less important than the immivasion crisis. But nations ought to be putting aside mere “marketplace” concerns and building systems/infrastructure defense/energy/industrial/communcations/transportation/medical … that is much more robust and doesn’t have “single points of failure”.

    • Agree: kaganovitch
    • Replies: @Pericles
    @AnotherDad

    I'd like to think I have indicated US-UK as the likely culprits, not Poland, not Ukraine. Apart from certain military exercise hints shown previously, it seems stupidly risky for a small country to do such a thing.

    For example, let's say Poland was discovered to have sabotaged Germany's gas pipelines -- it might well mean the ejection of Poland from the EU, or the end of the EU, or something worse. Similar reasoning goes for the Ukraine. As I see it, only the US would have the chutzpah, even though it could conceivably break up NATO (maybe that risk is acceptable).

    But I could of course be wrong.

    , @Anonymous
    @AnotherDad

    We've become collectively more stupid about these things since the end of the Cold War.

    The people who led the West through the Cold War were big capitalists who liked international trade very much. But they also understood that the trade system was fragile and easily disrupted, whether by human malevolence or natural disaster.

    Hence they took care to follow policies like not outsourcing production of emergency equipment to foreign countries, maintaining strategic stockpiles of important commodities, not becoming over reliant economically on a single energy source, and so on.

    All these lessons were forgotten in the 1990s and are now having to be re-learned the hard way.

  151. Most likely the Poles and/or the Americans blew up these pipelines to chain the Germans to their guns and to block any retreat for them. By doing so the Poles and Americans will be blamed for whatever hardships come along in the next few years. Maybe German ethno-masochism is an infinitely renewable resource but I doubt it.

  152. @AnotherDad
    @bispora


    There may have been Ukrainians on the dive team, but that the operation was conceived and executed by the CIA and the Pentagon is beyond doubt to anyone with a brain. It’s a disgrace what you Americans are doing to us Europeans…
     
    War and geostrategy really does excite the male mind. Nothing wrong with that. It's our nature and strategizing is important.

    But a recurring theme in Sailer's Ukraine war threads is all the people--guys--o so self-confident in their assertions ... about a war that they can't possibly have much certainty about.

    I can think of a least a handful of plausible suspects with some interest or another--starting with Ukrainians or Poles but heck even running on to Russians if they aren't going to sell gas this winter and want to blame someone else.

    What I do know is ... I do not know. And pretty darn sure no one else here actually knows either.

    Replies: @Hunsdon, @Jack D

    Thanks, AD. Everyone seems so certain . . . and somehow the things they are sure about all line up nicely with their preferences. The pro-Russian side is convinced everything is going swimmingly for Russia. The pro-Ukrainian side is convinced everything is going swimmingly for Ukraine.

    What did Socrates say? “I am wiser than that man. Neither of us probably knows anything worthwhile; but he thinks he does when he does not, and I do not and do not think I do.”

  153. @AnotherDad
    @bispora


    There may have been Ukrainians on the dive team, but that the operation was conceived and executed by the CIA and the Pentagon is beyond doubt to anyone with a brain. It’s a disgrace what you Americans are doing to us Europeans…
     
    War and geostrategy really does excite the male mind. Nothing wrong with that. It's our nature and strategizing is important.

    But a recurring theme in Sailer's Ukraine war threads is all the people--guys--o so self-confident in their assertions ... about a war that they can't possibly have much certainty about.

    I can think of a least a handful of plausible suspects with some interest or another--starting with Ukrainians or Poles but heck even running on to Russians if they aren't going to sell gas this winter and want to blame someone else.

    What I do know is ... I do not know. And pretty darn sure no one else here actually knows either.

    Replies: @Hunsdon, @Jack D

    Yeah, it really amazes me that some people here were absolutely CERTAIN (based on zero evidence) that this was done by Ukraine/Poland/the US from the moment that they heard what happened. It didn’t even occur to them that there could be any other possibility. Sometimes they skip right to the condemnation (“Isn’t terrible what the US did – why do we always do terrible things?”), skipping over the proof entirely and in other cases they post all manner of specious “proof” that isn’t proof at all – things Biden said in February, military exercises that were over months ago.

    I don’t have proof that Russia did this either but I don’t think that they can automatically be ruled out just because the US is always EEEVIL.

    Here is more on the the “force majeure” angle :

    Obviously she is not disinterested but that doesn’t mean that she is wrong.

    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    @Jack D

    Yes the Russians would blow up both Nord Stream 1 and 2 to avoid paying penalties for non-delivery. Some time in the future, when the arbitration started going against them, they could have grudgingly resumed delivery of gas to Germany but Putin is just too much of a madman to take the easy route. He had to blow up both pipelines instead. He's like the guy who flew a plane into an IRS building rather than pay back taxes. He simply must be stopped!

    She even uses a lowercase "r" to spell "Russia". Childishness.

    , @BB753
    @Jack D

    Well she's wrong in that western countries are no longer paying Russia anyway. What would Russia gain?

    , @Chrisnonymous
    @Jack D

    But this doesn't address the question of why Russia would want to stop gas flows to Germany and East Europe. They are making money, and they are looking like the good guys. Of course, intermittent stoppages due to "technical issues" can be useful political leverage, but the complete cessation of ability to deliver provides no political leverage.

    I haven't read about it in depth, but my understanding is that repairing Nordstream 1 was a contractual obligation of Germany which they could not fulfill because of sanctions. That is politically advantageous situation for Russia. However, if the pipelines are entirely inoperable, there is no possibility of political blowback from those sanctions within Europe.

  154. @Achmed E. Newman
    @Ron Unz

    Yeah, you think the Americans dunnit, on everything (or rogue Deep State type Americans). I don't agree on the Kung Flu deal*, but as for this Nord Stream sabotage, if not directly responsible, the Potomac Regime must have been indirectly involved. As someone has written above (or in the other post), it's not like anyone's even denied it, have they?

    As for Joe Biden, he's pretty much out of every loop at this point including what he ate for breakfast.

    It's time Americans start slowly separating themselves politically from the Potomac Regime. (We even have our own flags - the Rebel flag, Gadsden flag, and even the Stars & Stripes will do as the Potomac Regime has their own Pride flag now.)

    Imagine being a Russian during the 70-year long Communist Totalitarianism or Chinaman under Mao, knowing the world hates "your" government. At least I, even at a young age, knew that the Russian people ≠ the USSR government. I hope the rest of the world will understand that patriotic Americans ≠ the Potomac Regime.


    National leaders who take extremely reckless and foolish actions with disastrous longterm consequences for America’s position in the world are more likely to repeat that sort of behavior.
     
    Agreed. However, it's all gonna stop when the financial SHTF. There's no stopping that one.

    .

    * Every piece of supposedly supporting evidence you lead us to in articles turns out not to be supporting evidence at all. I've followed your links, such as to the Nick Wade paper a year back, then some quick Wired article more recently, and guess what, they don't support your theory.

    Replies: @AnotherDad

    It’s time Americans start slowly separating themselves politically from the Potomac Regime. (We even have our own flags – the Rebel flag, Gadsden flag, and even the Stars & Stripes will do as the Potomac Regime has their own Pride flag now.)

    The Gadsden flag is great.

    I do not like the Rebel Flag–really the Army of Northern Virgina battle flag–because of its association with slavery. The Confederacy had the better “self-determination” argument, but slavery is a very old, very crappy institution we want no part of. In fact, we precisely do not want to be enslaved by our new “elite”, diversity! peddling, cheap labor swilling masters.

    But the Gadsden flag is great, because it overtly hammers the f-off, “Don’t Tread on Me” point while tying it richly to American history. It says:

    “We are the real Americans, with the real American spirit–not you ‘nation of immigrants, America nothing but a big marketplace for looting people.”

    • Agree: The Anti-Gnostic
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @AnotherDad

    The Rebel Flag is associated with "muh slavery" only due to 4 decades of Lyin' Press propaganda that I think has gotten to you too, A.D. In the 1970s it stood for The South, period. I'd seen black guys with the flag plate on the front of their muscle cars.

    Yes, the Gadsden Flag is a good one. Unfortunately, it has lost some of its poisonous bite, as I've seen too many groups fly it but do NOTHING against the Regime.

    Replies: @Joe Stalin

    , @Corvinus
    @AnotherDad

    “We are the real Americans, with the real American spirit–not you ‘nation of immigrants, America nothing but a big marketplace for looting people.”

    You’re a straight up idiot, and anti white to boot. Tens of millions of American whites had ancestors who were immigrants. They currently champion your causes, and then you have the gall to lash out against them. It’s foul.

    Replies: @anon

  155. @James Braxton
    If it was Ukraine, which seems pretty far fetched, they just did an attack within NATO territory, to the direct harm of a NATO member state. Which should trigger Article 5, so that would be really stupid.

    Replies: @Thomas

    Agreed. Ukraine is a NATO proxy right now but isn’t officially in NATO. Zero chance lawyers in the Pentagon and State Department would ignore this risk.

  156. @Steve Sailer
    @The Alarmist

    "They say the US did it;"

    "They" in this case is a former Polish foreign minister who is highly alienated from the current Polish ruling party, despite both being more or less right of center. So unless the current Polish foreign minister starts echoing Sikorski about American culpability, I'd not take Sikorski's comment too seriously.

    Replies: @Dumbo, @Allan, @The Alarmist

    Do you understand that “Radek” Sikorsky had a motive to ingratiate hisself with the ruling cabal of Poland? He obtains grace, and the Polock establishment obtains a diversion aimed at the most obvious suspect, which was already out on a limb with public statements threatening, in effect, sabotage or other action against the pipeline or its operators (Nord Stream AG) and partners (Gazprom, Gasunie, Engie, etc.). His Judeo-American wife may not object much, for she’s a neocon with Polish citizenship.

    Now let’s think about the Polocks’ motives. Their “personal motivation to hurt the Russians” has been made public again during the SMO to thwart Natoland’s aggression against Russian Ukrainians. Polish soldiers are fighting in Ukraine. Damaged Ukrainian equipment is sent to Poland for repairs. The Polish government announced this past summer some sort of cco-citizenship arrangement of the two states. And so on.

    Second, there is a micro-imperialist affair called the Three Seas Initiative. It was “launched in 2015 by Polish President Andrzej Duda and Croatian President Kolinda Grabar-Kitarović” (Wikipedia). It’s evident that some silly folks on the Baltic have been fantasizing about restoring the greatness which they think that they had during the Middle Ages. (Jews were often in control and had their own state within a state, too.) Americans like Israel-lover Mike Pompeo have taken a keen interest in 3Seas. While he was SoS, he pledged up to $1B to the Three Seas Initiative Investment Fund, though I don’t know if the money was ever disbursed.

    Of course, the Three Seas Initiative has interests including… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Seas_Initiative#Projects

    Hurting Russia a little more and advancing crass commercial interests are probably not enough to motivate Polish sabotage of NS 1 & 2, so think about the geographic situation again from the Polish perspective. Imagine a scenario in which the Germans come to their senses, make peace with Russland, and beome genuine friends of Russia. This is in their long term interest, and the benefits to them are nothing less than national survival. Such peace and friendship, however, leads to NATO being evicted from Satrapy Doitchland, and eventually to Germany’s exit from the EU. One result is that Poland finds itself positioned between two allies of Russia and a little piece of Russia called Kaliningrad.

    That just can’t be tolerated if you are a Russophobic Polish imperialist with fantasies of ruling eastern Europe. How will the Poles contain Russia with Germany as Russia’s friend? What would happen to their 3Seas thingy under these conditions? Some neverous people in Poland might just say, ‘ “Fuck the EU” and the USA, too. Let’s form some sort of confederation with Germany and Russia to avoid another horrifying war and get the Anglo-American mafia off our backs and off our turf.’ This would undermine recidivist Polish imperialism. However, by sabotaging NS, or helping America to do so, Poland obtains instead a crippled Germany with no urgency to make peace with Russia and fading prospects for suvival after a predictable exodus of brains sure to follow Germany’s likely industrial collapse.

    Now, we all know that (1) the USA controls the foreign policy of EU and NATO countries and (2) the foreign policy of the USA is subject to enormous influence and pressure from Tsionists and Tsion itself. Since you’re obsessed with Ukraine, which has been a satrapy of American and Tsionist interests since 2014, we can close the circle by noting that the same alien supremacists have left their fingerprints all over the recent history of Ukraine. There’s lots of evidence there. A wannabe mover and shaker of Tsionism, Ihor Kolomoisky, financed the elevation of the actor into the presidency, and supremacist folks like the ADL have been suspiciously sympathetic to Ukronazis, whom I regard as just useful thugs even if they do have Zelensky running scared of them. If you expect people to believe that the helpless Ukrainians (with scant naval resources and no direct access to the Baltic) were the perps, you need to fit that into the regional political framework which I’ve just described. They have been pawns all along.

    Poland will pay for its teachery, just as it paid for its brutality of the 1920’s and 1930’s. Tsion will rub its hands with glee upon another great war spreading throughout Europe according to its own designs.

  157. @Jack D
    @AnotherDad

    Yeah, it really amazes me that some people here were absolutely CERTAIN (based on zero evidence) that this was done by Ukraine/Poland/the US from the moment that they heard what happened. It didn't even occur to them that there could be any other possibility. Sometimes they skip right to the condemnation ("Isn't terrible what the US did - why do we always do terrible things?"), skipping over the proof entirely and in other cases they post all manner of specious "proof" that isn't proof at all - things Biden said in February, military exercises that were over months ago.

    I don't have proof that Russia did this either but I don't think that they can automatically be ruled out just because the US is always EEEVIL.

    Here is more on the the "force majeure" angle :

    https://twitter.com/maria_drutska/status/1575135590684807172?s=46&t=lQtOhgjb_gJVpMnPI-UaUg

    Obviously she is not disinterested but that doesn't mean that she is wrong.

    Replies: @Cagey Beast, @BB753, @Chrisnonymous

    Yes the Russians would blow up both Nord Stream 1 and 2 to avoid paying penalties for non-delivery. Some time in the future, when the arbitration started going against them, they could have grudgingly resumed delivery of gas to Germany but Putin is just too much of a madman to take the easy route. He had to blow up both pipelines instead. He’s like the guy who flew a plane into an IRS building rather than pay back taxes. He simply must be stopped!

    She even uses a lowercase “r” to spell “Russia”. Childishness.

  158. Anonymous[363] • Disclaimer says:
    @cliff arroyo
    @Timur The Lame

    Not really, there was recently a story in Poland pointing out the official "investigation" simply elminated any analysis (including those that they paid for) that said it was an accident (and that was most of them).

    I have no doubt putain _would_ have crashed the plane if he could and thought he had a reason to, but russians are bumblers and they couldn't have kept it covered up... it would have been very obvious to even a casual observer, like Katyń.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    Yes, it was an accident. We know that at the time of the crash the Polish president was in the cockpit, swearing at the pilot, calling him a coward, and ordering him to land IMMEDIATELY regardless of the danger.

    The pilot was a coward, yes, but not in this sense. He should have looked the president in the eye and told him “get out of MY COCKPIT or I’m going to throw you off MY PLANE, president or not.”

    A plane, like a ship, can only have one commander, else things like this happen.

  159. @Jack D
    @The Anti-Gnostic

    You're missing the point. The valves were already off (in the case of Nord Stream 2 they were never even opened). But with the pipeline intact, he could turn them back on just as quickly as he turned them off. This was saying to the Germans (and to himself and to the oligarchs) that no deal is possible anymore. The divorce is permanent.

    Another possibility is that this was just a way of reducing Gazprom's damages. Gazprom has contracts to deliver gas and if they don't fulfill the contract there are damages. UNLESS the inability to deliver is due to "force majuere". Gazprom turned off the gas several weeks agon on the basis that a turbine was broken but that excuse was starting to wear thin so they needed another excuse.

    Replies: @Hunsdon, @vinteuil

    with the pipeline intact, [Putin] could turn them back on just as quickly as he turned them off. This was saying to the Germans (and to himself and to the oligarchs) that no deal is possible anymore. The divorce is permanent.

    Interesting theory.

    Obviously, whoever did this wanted to deprive Russia of the ability to pressure Germany by turning the gas spigots on or off at will.

    You think that Putin himself threw away his biggest bargaining card, so as to finalize the divorce between Russia & the West?

    As I say – interesting theory. Please do tell me more.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @vinteuil

    I'm leaning toward the theory that this was done so that Gazprom could invoke continue to invoke "force majeure" and continue not delivering gas without being liable for contractual damages because the "broken turbine" excuse was reaching its sell-by date. Given the current difference between the contracted price and the price to cover in the market, these damages would be very substantial.

    He hasn't really thrown away anything - various estimates have been given of the time to repair but it could be as little as one week. Basically they just have to replace a few sections of pipe. If this is "sending a message" it's more like breaking the windshield on a car, not setting the whole car on fire.

    Replies: @Inselaffen, @Hunsdon

    , @MGB
    @vinteuil


    As I say – interesting theory. Please do tell me more.
     
    it's an idiotic theory, as your sarcasm suggests. herr dumkopf is more appealing when he's being ignorant, rather than feigning ignorance. ("I don’t have proof that Russia did this either but I don’t think that they can automatically be ruled out...") the president and the under secretary of state, that same scheming bitch who helped facilitate a coup in ukraine which led inexorably to the current crisis, both publicly announce that the invasion of ukraine means the end of nord2, military exercises were previously conducted in an area of the baltic where the explosions take place, the US has been for years lecturing that euro energy should be cleaved from the russians, and russia now loses any control over eu energy policy, leaving europe more dependent than ever on the usa. and since the eu is swirling the bowl economically, usa predators can swoop in and buy up assets at a discount, just like they were hoping to do again under tsar yeltsin II, aka navalny the 2percenter. yes, this is quite a mystery. it didn't happen in the middle of the pacific. it's one of the most busy sea lanes in the world, in NATO's backyard. if there was proof of russian activity in the area before the explosions, we'd have heard about it.
  160. @Jack D
    @AnotherDad

    Yeah, it really amazes me that some people here were absolutely CERTAIN (based on zero evidence) that this was done by Ukraine/Poland/the US from the moment that they heard what happened. It didn't even occur to them that there could be any other possibility. Sometimes they skip right to the condemnation ("Isn't terrible what the US did - why do we always do terrible things?"), skipping over the proof entirely and in other cases they post all manner of specious "proof" that isn't proof at all - things Biden said in February, military exercises that were over months ago.

    I don't have proof that Russia did this either but I don't think that they can automatically be ruled out just because the US is always EEEVIL.

    Here is more on the the "force majeure" angle :

    https://twitter.com/maria_drutska/status/1575135590684807172?s=46&t=lQtOhgjb_gJVpMnPI-UaUg

    Obviously she is not disinterested but that doesn't mean that she is wrong.

    Replies: @Cagey Beast, @BB753, @Chrisnonymous

    Well she’s wrong in that western countries are no longer paying Russia anyway. What would Russia gain?

  161. @kaganovitch
    I have to say, I'm deeply disappointed in the MEN of UNZ. Several dozen comments and it falls to me, the Hasbara shill, to mention Mossad. Sad!

    Replies: @kaganovitch, @Muggles

    I see 115 JimDandy beat me to it. My faith is restored.

  162. @Paul Jolliffe
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    Unlike Biden, Kennedy himself knew firsthand the dangers and horrors of war.
    Unlike Biden, Kennedy was deeply concerned about the impact on future generations of Americans any decisions he would make.
    Unlike Biden, Kennedy was a reader (if not a writer . . .) of history, very aware of the dangers of human omniscience, arrogance and certainty.
    Unlike Biden, Kennedy sought a negotiated way out.
    Unlike Biden, Kennedy did not want to increase the risk of nuclear war with Russia.
    Unlike Biden, Kennedy was unwilling to yield to the many hawks in his administration. (“The brass have one advantage - if this goes south, none of us will be around to tell them they were wrong.”)
    Unlike Biden, Kennedy was a smart and personally courageous man.

    Replies: @RAZ

    Unlike Biden, Kennedy himself knew firsthand the dangers and horrors of war.
    Unlike Biden, Kennedy was deeply concerned about the impact on future generations of Americans any decisions he would make.
    Unlike Biden, Kennedy was a reader (if not a writer . . .) of history, very aware of the dangers of human omniscience, arrogance and certainty.
    Unlike Biden, Kennedy sought a negotiated way out.
    Unlike Biden, Kennedy did not want to increase the risk of nuclear war with Russia.
    Unlike Biden, Kennedy was unwilling to yield to the many hawks in his administration. (“The brass have one advantage – if this goes south, none of us will be around to tell them they were wrong.”)
    Unlike Biden, Kennedy was a smart and personally courageous man.

    Agree. Our loss to have Biden and not Kennedy.

    Bay of Pigs soured Kennedy on the Intelligence community and he developed a healthy skepticism of the military leadership from the missile crisis. I used to think it was just Liberal love for Kennedy when they would say he would’ve pulled us out of Vietnam sooner, but have read enough like The Best And The Brightest to believe Kennedy was smart enough and assured enough and skeptical enough that he would’ve begun withdrawing after his re-election in 1964, instead of massively expanding like LBJ did. Eisenhower would also have been smart enough and been skeptical enough of his generals to have done similar to Kennedy on Cuban missile, and to have pulled the plug on Vietnam.

    • Thanks: Paul Jolliffe
  163. @SunBakedSuburb
    @Daniel H

    Right. It's a classic USN Seal operation using a specialized submersible launched from one of the many NATO sea assets or bases in the Baltic Sea. The commenters here who have theorized that this insane action is meant to bring Germany and the rest of Western Europe under the American boot are spot-on.

    Any American who stills supports sending globohomo puppet state Ukraine more American billions has got their head permanently lodged in their keister.

    Replies: @Richard B

    The commenters here who have theorized that this insane action is meant to bring Germany and the rest of Western Europe under the American boot are spot-on.

    As are those who have theorized that the terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001 were meant to bring the United States and the rest of the Western world under the Israel boot.

  164. @prime noticer
    my opinion of Cochran keeps going down.

    obviously the US used underwater demolitions to blow up the pipeline. the objective is to force Germany to do what the US wants.

    Germany will not be allowed to communicate with Russia on their own, possibly backing out of rigid US doctrine in this conflict. if the energy situation on the ground in Germany gets bad this winter, no changing direction. Germany is not allowed to have that option.

    so, a recession in Germany. higher electricity prices. lower production of manufactured stuff. less aluminum, less steel. Germany is a vassal state. it will do what the US wants.

    UKR forces do not really have the capability to do this operation.

    Replies: @Anon

    If you think aluminum or steel are a significant part of Germany’s GDP, kill yourself.

    Germany’s economic strength is in its financial banking economy not it’s tiny steel mills.

  165. @vinteuil
    @Jack D


    with the pipeline intact, [Putin] could turn them back on just as quickly as he turned them off. This was saying to the Germans (and to himself and to the oligarchs) that no deal is possible anymore. The divorce is permanent.
     
    Interesting theory.

    Obviously, whoever did this wanted to deprive Russia of the ability to pressure Germany by turning the gas spigots on or off at will.

    You think that Putin himself threw away his biggest bargaining card, so as to finalize the divorce between Russia & the West?

    As I say - interesting theory. Please do tell me more.

    Replies: @Jack D, @MGB

    I’m leaning toward the theory that this was done so that Gazprom could invoke continue to invoke “force majeure” and continue not delivering gas without being liable for contractual damages because the “broken turbine” excuse was reaching its sell-by date. Given the current difference between the contracted price and the price to cover in the market, these damages would be very substantial.

    He hasn’t really thrown away anything – various estimates have been given of the time to repair but it could be as little as one week. Basically they just have to replace a few sections of pipe. If this is “sending a message” it’s more like breaking the windshield on a car, not setting the whole car on fire.

    • Replies: @Inselaffen
    @Jack D

    Yes, Putin responded to the prospect of receiving a fine for non-delivery (from customers who refuse to buy due to their own sanctions), being a law-abiding sort who is deeply concerned that being fined for non-delivery might affect his impeccably high esteem in the west and get Gazprom a 1 star review on Google from the German government, by quickly choosing the far less serious international offence of blowing up crucial infrastructure, in an attack on a NATO member, that cost himself $billions to make after years and years of difficult politicking, and also happens to be his strongest lever to use on Europe economically and politically, right when it was about to become most useful. All just to avoid a fine (which, being an upstanding sort, he'd HAVE to pay). Makes perfect sense.

    (by the way, Russia already defaulted on some debts earlier this year, and refused to send gas to countries that wouldn't follow the rules Russia had suddenly imposed, i.e. paying in rubles. how can anyone believe they would suddenly 'have to pay' (who?) for 'breach of contract' (lmao) and would rather cut off their own arm to avoid that?)

    , @Hunsdon
    @Jack D

    Wait, Jack----so this comment by you from earlier upthread is no longer valid?

    JackD: But with the pipeline intact, he could turn them back on just as quickly as he turned them off. This was saying to the Germans (and to himself and to the oligarchs) that no deal is possible anymore. The divorce is permanent.

    Are you consciously arguing in the alternative, or are you just changing your response when asked a different question? (Not necessarily accusing you of bad faith, here----it's a common trait.)

    Replies: @Jack D

  166. @vinteuil
    @Jack D


    with the pipeline intact, [Putin] could turn them back on just as quickly as he turned them off. This was saying to the Germans (and to himself and to the oligarchs) that no deal is possible anymore. The divorce is permanent.
     
    Interesting theory.

    Obviously, whoever did this wanted to deprive Russia of the ability to pressure Germany by turning the gas spigots on or off at will.

    You think that Putin himself threw away his biggest bargaining card, so as to finalize the divorce between Russia & the West?

    As I say - interesting theory. Please do tell me more.

    Replies: @Jack D, @MGB

    As I say – interesting theory. Please do tell me more.

    it’s an idiotic theory, as your sarcasm suggests. herr dumkopf is more appealing when he’s being ignorant, rather than feigning ignorance. (“I don’t have proof that Russia did this either but I don’t think that they can automatically be ruled out…”) the president and the under secretary of state, that same scheming bitch who helped facilitate a coup in ukraine which led inexorably to the current crisis, both publicly announce that the invasion of ukraine means the end of nord2, military exercises were previously conducted in an area of the baltic where the explosions take place, the US has been for years lecturing that euro energy should be cleaved from the russians, and russia now loses any control over eu energy policy, leaving europe more dependent than ever on the usa. and since the eu is swirling the bowl economically, usa predators can swoop in and buy up assets at a discount, just like they were hoping to do again under tsar yeltsin II, aka navalny the 2percenter. yes, this is quite a mystery. it didn’t happen in the middle of the pacific. it’s one of the most busy sea lanes in the world, in NATO’s backyard. if there was proof of russian activity in the area before the explosions, we’d have heard about it.

  167. @Ron Unz
    @Pericles


    So what were the supposed Ukrainian logistics in order to accomplish this? In fully deniable secrecy, of course. Please describe the details. Night train to Warsaw, drag the equipment and munitions to Gdansk train, rent fishing boat in Gdansk, …
     
    I suppose it's remotely possible that the Ukrainians did it, but even leaving aside the logistics of an operation hundreds of miles from their own country, I wonder if they have the necessary military underwater technology. It hardly seems a trivial operation.

    So Poland seems a much more likely suspect. But Sikorski, their former Foreign Minister, who's very well plugged in with America's political/national security establishment (married to Anne Applebaum) explicitly "thanked" America. Anyway, if Poland (or Ukraine) did it, I can't believe they would have taken such a step without authorization/encouragement by powerful elements of the American government. Probably no one would have asked Biden since he's out to lunch, but surely senior American figures would have given a green-light or quite likely ordered the operation itself, whether it was carried out by Polish proxies or directly by American forces.

    Naturally the Washington Post and other Deep State controlled MSM immediately blamed the Russians for blowing up their own pipeline, presumably because they're just evil and insane. Probably more than half the American public will be stupid enough to believe that.

    Given the disastrous energy problems Germany and the rest of Europe are facing this winter, the human consequences could be horrendous, but our ruling Deep State elements don't care about that. My guess is that most Europeans will sooner or later understand that elements of the American government were probably the ones ultimately responsible, with gigantic geopolitical consequences very harmful to America's longterm national interests. So the attack was an extremely reckless and foolish decision.

    So far, I'd guess that many or most of the iSteve commenters are probably nodding their heads in agreement. But now comes the "touchy" part.

    This entire scenario seems remarkably similar to the one I've been suggesting for more than two years on the origins of Covid, namely that there's strong perhaps even overwhelming evidence that the global epidemic was due to an American biowarfare attack against China (and Iran):

    https://www.unz.com/page/covid-biowarfare-articles/

    Just as in this case, Trump himself was almost certainly out of the loop, but the attack was probably orchestrated by top figures in his administration, who immediately tried (somewhat successfully) to blame the Chinese for the viral epidemic in their own country.

    National leaders who take extremely reckless and foolish actions with disastrous longterm consequences for America's position in the world are more likely to repeat that sort of behavior.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Chrisnonymous, @Dmon, @Matt Buckalew, @H. L. M, @Corvinus, @Tex, @Buzz Mohawk, @Anonymous

    Ron thinks the deep state is responsible for every bad thing that happens in the world but they couldn’t even carry Ron over the top in a Republican primary.

    Remember when Ron challenged the single most effective anti-immigration politician of the past 40 years. Had the entire deep state on his side and he couldn’t even beat Pete Wilson.

  168. I am so out of touch that I don’t even know who Gregory Cochran is.

    • Agree: Cagey Beast
  169. @Coemgen
    Who said they were going to stop the pipelines?

    Who keeps goading the Russians (isn't bear baiting illegal in the U.S.)?

    Who really really wants martial law in the U.S.?

    Replies: @Anonymous, @The Wild Geese Howard, @Ken52

    • Thanks: botazefa
  170. @AnotherDad
    @Pericles


    So what were the supposed Ukrainian logistics in order to accomplish this? In fully deniable secrecy, of course. Please describe the details. Night train to Warsaw, drag the equipment and munitions to Gdansk train, rent fishing boat in Gdansk, …
     
    Pericles, while I agree it is much easier for the Poles--they're right there--you're implying this is some sort of difficult operation to pull off.

    I'm not a demolitions guy, but as just an "intelligent reader", this sort of thing looks like it takes some decently trained guys, some explosives and a couple of these remote submersible drones. Outside the explosives gear the modern treasure hunter uses. Hardly some super complex operation.

    ~~

    The notable thing about modernity is just how vulnerable a lot of the key infrastructure is--pipelines, undersea cables, transmission towers ...

    For a nation to be seriously energy dependent on a pipeline that pretty much anyone can disable in a cheapo operation that even a small rogue group--not to mention any hostile nation--could throw together is ridiculous.

    All this stuff is orders of magnitude less important than the immivasion crisis. But nations ought to be putting aside mere "marketplace" concerns and building systems/infrastructure defense/energy/industrial/communcations/transportation/medical ... that is much more robust and doesn't have "single points of failure".

    Replies: @Pericles, @Anonymous

    I’d like to think I have indicated US-UK as the likely culprits, not Poland, not Ukraine. Apart from certain military exercise hints shown previously, it seems stupidly risky for a small country to do such a thing.

    For example, let’s say Poland was discovered to have sabotaged Germany’s gas pipelines — it might well mean the ejection of Poland from the EU, or the end of the EU, or something worse. Similar reasoning goes for the Ukraine. As I see it, only the US would have the chutzpah, even though it could conceivably break up NATO (maybe that risk is acceptable).

    But I could of course be wrong.

  171. @Steve Sailer
    @The Alarmist

    "They say the US did it;"

    "They" in this case is a former Polish foreign minister who is highly alienated from the current Polish ruling party, despite both being more or less right of center. So unless the current Polish foreign minister starts echoing Sikorski about American culpability, I'd not take Sikorski's comment too seriously.

    Replies: @Dumbo, @Allan, @The Alarmist

    This analysis from Larry Johnson adds a little context:

    Makes you wonder if there was some wheeling and dealing was going on between Washington and Warsaw. Given Warsaw’s critical location and role in ensuring U.S. and NATO military supplies is delivered to Ukraine, the Poles have a bit of leverage to push the United States to take out the pipelines or to help Poland take out the pipelines. Poland’s message to the United States was simple–reverse course on Nordstream and rupture the pipelines or you can find another way to move your military supplies to Ukraine.

    source: https://sonar21.com/what-a-coincidence/

  172. @Jack D
    @Hypnotoad666

    That would require them to have a real military. It would require them to maybe sometimes send their sons (and daughters) to die. The Germans are like overaged teenagers living in Mom America's basement since 1945. They don't have to pay rent so they can spend all their money on a really nice hifi and a bunch of records. I wouldn't count on them moving out anytime soon.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Hypnotoad666

    That would require them to have a real military.

    True. But they could accomplish that by getting some nukes. Perhaps as a “secret” that everyone actually knows about, like Israel. Or as a latent capability, like Japan (which apparently has all the parts ready to assemble in the event they need them). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_latency

    But that would currently be unthinkable due to the ghost of Adolph Hitler. It’s amazing how that guy has managed to control the world from the grave for 75 years.

    • Replies: @Triteleia Laxa
    @Hypnotoad666

    Germany is the leading country in Europe. Its economy is many classes above Russia's. It also dominates the EU. A huge combined economy. It needs to have a military that would have scared Russia off from invading Ukraine. Ukraine borders the EU and is a potential member. It is as if the US couldn't deter someone from invading Mexico.

    Until Europe, particularly Germany, can achieve that basic function, US forces will continued to be required and invited into the continent. Nukes won't do it. Only a military and security apparatus that is equivalent.

    But that would require serious prioritisation and sacrifice, and it is so much easier to invite the Americans in, and resent them to save pride.

    And it has nothing to do with Hitler. West Germany had a much more serious military. It is just free-riding and spoilt entitlement.

    Replies: @Hypnotoad666

  173. @Ron Unz
    @Pericles


    So what were the supposed Ukrainian logistics in order to accomplish this? In fully deniable secrecy, of course. Please describe the details. Night train to Warsaw, drag the equipment and munitions to Gdansk train, rent fishing boat in Gdansk, …
     
    I suppose it's remotely possible that the Ukrainians did it, but even leaving aside the logistics of an operation hundreds of miles from their own country, I wonder if they have the necessary military underwater technology. It hardly seems a trivial operation.

    So Poland seems a much more likely suspect. But Sikorski, their former Foreign Minister, who's very well plugged in with America's political/national security establishment (married to Anne Applebaum) explicitly "thanked" America. Anyway, if Poland (or Ukraine) did it, I can't believe they would have taken such a step without authorization/encouragement by powerful elements of the American government. Probably no one would have asked Biden since he's out to lunch, but surely senior American figures would have given a green-light or quite likely ordered the operation itself, whether it was carried out by Polish proxies or directly by American forces.

    Naturally the Washington Post and other Deep State controlled MSM immediately blamed the Russians for blowing up their own pipeline, presumably because they're just evil and insane. Probably more than half the American public will be stupid enough to believe that.

    Given the disastrous energy problems Germany and the rest of Europe are facing this winter, the human consequences could be horrendous, but our ruling Deep State elements don't care about that. My guess is that most Europeans will sooner or later understand that elements of the American government were probably the ones ultimately responsible, with gigantic geopolitical consequences very harmful to America's longterm national interests. So the attack was an extremely reckless and foolish decision.

    So far, I'd guess that many or most of the iSteve commenters are probably nodding their heads in agreement. But now comes the "touchy" part.

    This entire scenario seems remarkably similar to the one I've been suggesting for more than two years on the origins of Covid, namely that there's strong perhaps even overwhelming evidence that the global epidemic was due to an American biowarfare attack against China (and Iran):

    https://www.unz.com/page/covid-biowarfare-articles/

    Just as in this case, Trump himself was almost certainly out of the loop, but the attack was probably orchestrated by top figures in his administration, who immediately tried (somewhat successfully) to blame the Chinese for the viral epidemic in their own country.

    National leaders who take extremely reckless and foolish actions with disastrous longterm consequences for America's position in the world are more likely to repeat that sort of behavior.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Chrisnonymous, @Dmon, @Matt Buckalew, @H. L. M, @Corvinus, @Tex, @Buzz Mohawk, @Anonymous

    Dear Ron,

    Congratulations on your analysis of the Nordstream sabotage.

    But don’t stop there. The attached video will firmly convince you of your flawed thinking about both “Covid” and the “Vax”.

    https://usawatchdog.com/unpayable-debt-vax-causing-hell-on-earth-ed-dowd/

  174. @NJ Transit Commuter
    Even if the Ukes did this, they couldn’t have done it without NATO allowing it to happen. So this is still a casus belli between Russia and NATO. The other alternative is that the Russians did it, which is also a potential casus belli between Russian and NATO.

    We are reaching Cuban Missile Crisis territory here, and JRB is no JFK.

    Replies: @MEH 0910, @Peter Akuleyev, @Paul Jolliffe, @Colin Wright

    ‘…We are reaching Cuban Missile Crisis territory here…’

    You say that as if it’s a bug rather than a feature. From the start, all of this has been to distract us from what Biden’s handlers are doing to this country.

    If the Ukraine is starting to cease to distract us — well, it just has to be heated up.

  175. @AnotherDad
    @Achmed E. Newman


    It’s time Americans start slowly separating themselves politically from the Potomac Regime. (We even have our own flags – the Rebel flag, Gadsden flag, and even the Stars & Stripes will do as the Potomac Regime has their own Pride flag now.)
     
    The Gadsden flag is great.

    I do not like the Rebel Flag--really the Army of Northern Virgina battle flag--because of its association with slavery. The Confederacy had the better "self-determination" argument, but slavery is a very old, very crappy institution we want no part of. In fact, we precisely do not want to be enslaved by our new "elite", diversity! peddling, cheap labor swilling masters.

    But the Gadsden flag is great, because it overtly hammers the f-off, "Don't Tread on Me" point while tying it richly to American history. It says:

    "We are the real Americans, with the real American spirit--not you 'nation of immigrants, America nothing but a big marketplace for looting people."

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Corvinus

    The Rebel Flag is associated with “muh slavery” only due to 4 decades of Lyin’ Press propaganda that I think has gotten to you too, A.D. In the 1970s it stood for The South, period. I’d seen black guys with the flag plate on the front of their muscle cars.

    Yes, the Gadsden Flag is a good one. Unfortunately, it has lost some of its poisonous bite, as I’ve seen too many groups fly it but do NOTHING against the Regime.

    • Thanks: Polistra
    • Replies: @Joe Stalin
    @Achmed E. Newman


    The Rebel Flag is associated with “muh slavery” only due to 4 decades of Lyin’ Press propaganda that I think has gotten to you too, A.D. In the 1970s it stood for The South, period.
     
    Look at this 1953 US movie filmed in Korea. The Korean children are carrying Confederate Battle Flags!

    https://youtu.be/1paqosv25Sw?t=1663
    [27:43]

    Battle of Chosin

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjViioQUZKo

  176. @Jack D
    @vinteuil

    I'm leaning toward the theory that this was done so that Gazprom could invoke continue to invoke "force majeure" and continue not delivering gas without being liable for contractual damages because the "broken turbine" excuse was reaching its sell-by date. Given the current difference between the contracted price and the price to cover in the market, these damages would be very substantial.

    He hasn't really thrown away anything - various estimates have been given of the time to repair but it could be as little as one week. Basically they just have to replace a few sections of pipe. If this is "sending a message" it's more like breaking the windshield on a car, not setting the whole car on fire.

    Replies: @Inselaffen, @Hunsdon

    Yes, Putin responded to the prospect of receiving a fine for non-delivery (from customers who refuse to buy due to their own sanctions), being a law-abiding sort who is deeply concerned that being fined for non-delivery might affect his impeccably high esteem in the west and get Gazprom a 1 star review on Google from the German government, by quickly choosing the far less serious international offence of blowing up crucial infrastructure, in an attack on a NATO member, that cost himself $billions to make after years and years of difficult politicking, and also happens to be his strongest lever to use on Europe economically and politically, right when it was about to become most useful. All just to avoid a fine (which, being an upstanding sort, he’d HAVE to pay). Makes perfect sense.

    (by the way, Russia already defaulted on some debts earlier this year, and refused to send gas to countries that wouldn’t follow the rules Russia had suddenly imposed, i.e. paying in rubles. how can anyone believe they would suddenly ‘have to pay’ (who?) for ‘breach of contract’ (lmao) and would rather cut off their own arm to avoid that?)

  177. @Jack D
    @Cagey Beast

    Yes. Because if you light your neighbor's car on fire it's a causus belli and he is going to go to war against you (call the cops). But if you light your own car on fire (and maintain plausible deniability that someone else did it), it's not.

    I can't say that it makes a tremendous amount of sense that Putin blew up his own pipeline, but all indicators (the usual unz.com conspiracy theories aside) point to Russia having done it - they had the means and opportunity. So he must have had his reasons.

    In case you haven't noticed, Putin is now in desperation mode. The Russian Army is a shambles. He is grabbing old men off the street and sending them to the front without training - this is Germany 1945 level desperation. He is going to annex part of Ukraine based upon a sham referendum that NO ONE outside of Russia, even Putin's allies, recognizes. Hundreds of thousands of Russia's best and brightest are getting out of the country any way that they can and are probably never coming back. Domestic protests and even violence are breaking out. It's a royal friggin' mess, no matter how much copium you take.

    Desperate times call for desperate measures. One possibility is that this is Putin's signal to Germany (and to himself) that he has crossed the Rubicon and burned his bridges behind him. There is no making up possible anymore even if the Germans want it. It's never going back to the old way even if the Germans press Ukraine to make a deal. Putin is turning his back on Europe and letting his inner Mongol fly!

    Putin has his back to the corner but he's not ready to throw in the towel (losing this war is for him game, set, match - there is no home for retired dictators). He is going to keep trying whatever he can come up with to keep his opponents off balance. If some of it seems a little crazy, all the better. He has told us that he is "not bluffing" about using nukes either.

    Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic, @BB753, @Citizen of a Silly Country, @HA, @Bardon Kaldian

    Putin is turning his back on Europe and letting his inner Mongol fly!

    Agreed except that. Mongols were cold and calculating when it came to decision making.

  178. Triteleia Laxa [AKA "Monitor of Halls"] says:
    @Hypnotoad666
    @Jack D


    That would require them to have a real military.
     
    True. But they could accomplish that by getting some nukes. Perhaps as a "secret" that everyone actually knows about, like Israel. Or as a latent capability, like Japan (which apparently has all the parts ready to assemble in the event they need them). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_latency

    But that would currently be unthinkable due to the ghost of Adolph Hitler. It's amazing how that guy has managed to control the world from the grave for 75 years.

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa

    Germany is the leading country in Europe. Its economy is many classes above Russia’s. It also dominates the EU. A huge combined economy. It needs to have a military that would have scared Russia off from invading Ukraine. Ukraine borders the EU and is a potential member. It is as if the US couldn’t deter someone from invading Mexico.

    Until Europe, particularly Germany, can achieve that basic function, US forces will continued to be required and invited into the continent. Nukes won’t do it. Only a military and security apparatus that is equivalent.

    But that would require serious prioritisation and sacrifice, and it is so much easier to invite the Americans in, and resent them to save pride.

    And it has nothing to do with Hitler. West Germany had a much more serious military. It is just free-riding and spoilt entitlement.

    • Replies: @Hypnotoad666
    @Triteleia Laxa


    Until Europe, particularly Germany, can achieve that basic function, US forces will continued to be required and invited into the continent. Nukes won’t do it. Only a military and security apparatus that is equivalent.
     
    Germany and the Europeans aren't exactly "free riding" on the U.S. Rather, NATO is a quid pro quo in which they have agreed to sell control over their foreign policy to the U.S. in return for us defending them against Russia. It was a potentially reasonable deal until the U.S. deep state was captured by a cabal of insane (and insanely stupid) parasitic, Russophobic warmongers who act on their own agenda with zero consideration for the interests of our allies/vassals.

    Also, someone invented a new clause in the contract by which the Europeans also pledge their collective economy to the U.S. as a sanctions weapon. At this point NATO is the shittiest deal of all time for the Europeans because: (a) using their economies as a sanction weapon costs them more than funding their own defense would; and (b) they wouldn't need a defense against Russia anyway if they were allowed to peacefully coexist instead of slavishly following the US warmonger cabal.

    So you are right that Germany should rearm. But it should do so in order to regain its independence, not to be a more effective vassal state for the US.

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa

  179. While the Ukes might have some diabolical and complex motivation as you mentioned, this is pretty far fetched.

    Their capable military “Seals” if they had any are otherwise occupied. Not an easy task to find and place mines or explosives. The Baltic isn’t your swimming pool.

    Also, I doubt they have the spare million, nor the appetite for the extreme political risk if they were detected and caught.

    I think GreenPeace or Greta’s Earth Rangers are a more plausible theory. Not much but…

    Probably the Russians, though this seems self defeating. But now they can’t be blamed by freezing Germans and others for the lack of gas heat this winter. You don’t want to rile up the Germans and have them start looking East again, with bad intentions. Not again.

  180. @Bardon Kaldian
    I think it was a joint Ukrainian-Polish operation.

    Aside strategy & tactics, it sent emotional message: Germans- go phuck yourself.

    Replies: @Muggles

    I think it was a joint Ukrainian-Polish operation.

    Okay, great set up.

    Now what’s the punch line?

  181. @Jack D
    @AnotherDad

    Yeah, it really amazes me that some people here were absolutely CERTAIN (based on zero evidence) that this was done by Ukraine/Poland/the US from the moment that they heard what happened. It didn't even occur to them that there could be any other possibility. Sometimes they skip right to the condemnation ("Isn't terrible what the US did - why do we always do terrible things?"), skipping over the proof entirely and in other cases they post all manner of specious "proof" that isn't proof at all - things Biden said in February, military exercises that were over months ago.

    I don't have proof that Russia did this either but I don't think that they can automatically be ruled out just because the US is always EEEVIL.

    Here is more on the the "force majeure" angle :

    https://twitter.com/maria_drutska/status/1575135590684807172?s=46&t=lQtOhgjb_gJVpMnPI-UaUg

    Obviously she is not disinterested but that doesn't mean that she is wrong.

    Replies: @Cagey Beast, @BB753, @Chrisnonymous

    But this doesn’t address the question of why Russia would want to stop gas flows to Germany and East Europe. They are making money, and they are looking like the good guys. Of course, intermittent stoppages due to “technical issues” can be useful political leverage, but the complete cessation of ability to deliver provides no political leverage.

    I haven’t read about it in depth, but my understanding is that repairing Nordstream 1 was a contractual obligation of Germany which they could not fulfill because of sanctions. That is politically advantageous situation for Russia. However, if the pipelines are entirely inoperable, there is no possibility of political blowback from those sanctions within Europe.

  182. @kaganovitch
    I have to say, I'm deeply disappointed in the MEN of UNZ. Several dozen comments and it falls to me, the Hasbara shill, to mention Mossad. Sad!

    Replies: @kaganovitch, @Muggles

    I have to say, I’m deeply disappointed in the MEN of UNZ. Several dozen comments and it falls to me, the Hasbara shill, to mention Mossad. Sad!

    Well, who’s done the research on who was heavily invested in going long on LNG futures for winter European delivery?

    Surely someone can find some Jews in that crowd…

    (Does the Mossad have its own trading account? Quick, let’s check the Daily Stormer!)

  183. @Dmon
    @Ron Unz

    I don't know enough about the situation to definitively conclude who sabotaged the pipeline, other than it definitely wasn't the Russians (because the Washington Post says it definitely was the Russians). And I don't want to derail the thread over to covid. But I think there is one thing that all people of good will can agree on, regardless of their personal or political opinions :
    Stop fu#&ing around with the damn bats!
    Surely, the world community can unite to agree that any country conducting research of any kind on bats will be instantly nuked.

    https://www.upi.com/Science_News/2022/09/23/vaccine-resistant-coronavirus-similar-covid-19-found-russian-bats/6451663981211/

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Chrisnonymous

    Plague bats!! Finally, the WMD Biden has been warning us about!!

  184. The Deep State got away with bumping off Jeffery Epstein and stealing the ’20 election and a whole list of horrors. And there was no particular consequences for it. Why not this?

    I’m sure the presence of USN ships with special undersea capabilities (like blowing stuff up underwater) in the exact AO at the time is a TOTAL coinkidink. And if it isn’t who cares? What are you going to do about it? Putin could do something about it, which I think is precisely what the neocons want.

    Saddam’s giant stockpiles of WMD, the totally unproved attack on the USS Maddox, the list goes on. It’s not hard for a warmonger to spread lies to get the war they want. People don’t look terribly hard when they are prepared by propaganda to want war.

    No, not everything is a false flag. The Japs DID attack Pearl Harbor. Muslim terrorists DID carry out 9-11. But truth gets mixed with lies all the time, you have to look at the cases and the facts.

    More importantly, you need to know what’s in your best interests. Solve that and the rest is simple. The only enemy of the American people are the people running America.

    • Replies: @botazefa
    @Tex

    Yes, the "Japs" did attack Pearl Harbor.

    And there is important context:

    1. FDR cut off oil to Japan,
    2. FDR refused multiple attempts by Japan to negotiate a solution before Dec 7. Including on Dec 6 '41.

    Much like FDR before him, Biden's teleprompter is lying to the American people that we won't be going to war with Russia while we are literally making war on Russia. And Germany, apparently.

    But you seem to know this already.

    During WW2, prior to official entry into war (during lend-lease), the US was targeting and sinking German vessels in the Atlantic and lying about it. Even a false flag against a US warship didn't rouse the Americans to want to enter open war. FDR desperately wanted into WW2 but despite his best efforts, the American people were strongly against it. Then he got the gift of Dec 7 and 'The Sleeping Giant" awoke. The solution to the Depression was in hand.

    The ruling elite desperately need a War now. We have a serious economic crisis in the US and the UK. The Central Banks are up against a wall. It's not the Great Depression yet, but it's headed that way.

    Biden's Teleprompter is needs to awaken the Sleeping Giant once again. My fear is that the US/NATO is intentionally provoking a Russian tactical nuke deployment on Kiev for the purpose of rallying support for massive war in Europe. A modern Pearl Harbor, if you will.

    China will grab Taiwan and grab other low lying fruit, but that's a small price to pay I suppose.

    Somebody, anybody, tell me I'm crazy.

  185. @Ron Unz
    @Pericles


    So what were the supposed Ukrainian logistics in order to accomplish this? In fully deniable secrecy, of course. Please describe the details. Night train to Warsaw, drag the equipment and munitions to Gdansk train, rent fishing boat in Gdansk, …
     
    I suppose it's remotely possible that the Ukrainians did it, but even leaving aside the logistics of an operation hundreds of miles from their own country, I wonder if they have the necessary military underwater technology. It hardly seems a trivial operation.

    So Poland seems a much more likely suspect. But Sikorski, their former Foreign Minister, who's very well plugged in with America's political/national security establishment (married to Anne Applebaum) explicitly "thanked" America. Anyway, if Poland (or Ukraine) did it, I can't believe they would have taken such a step without authorization/encouragement by powerful elements of the American government. Probably no one would have asked Biden since he's out to lunch, but surely senior American figures would have given a green-light or quite likely ordered the operation itself, whether it was carried out by Polish proxies or directly by American forces.

    Naturally the Washington Post and other Deep State controlled MSM immediately blamed the Russians for blowing up their own pipeline, presumably because they're just evil and insane. Probably more than half the American public will be stupid enough to believe that.

    Given the disastrous energy problems Germany and the rest of Europe are facing this winter, the human consequences could be horrendous, but our ruling Deep State elements don't care about that. My guess is that most Europeans will sooner or later understand that elements of the American government were probably the ones ultimately responsible, with gigantic geopolitical consequences very harmful to America's longterm national interests. So the attack was an extremely reckless and foolish decision.

    So far, I'd guess that many or most of the iSteve commenters are probably nodding their heads in agreement. But now comes the "touchy" part.

    This entire scenario seems remarkably similar to the one I've been suggesting for more than two years on the origins of Covid, namely that there's strong perhaps even overwhelming evidence that the global epidemic was due to an American biowarfare attack against China (and Iran):

    https://www.unz.com/page/covid-biowarfare-articles/

    Just as in this case, Trump himself was almost certainly out of the loop, but the attack was probably orchestrated by top figures in his administration, who immediately tried (somewhat successfully) to blame the Chinese for the viral epidemic in their own country.

    National leaders who take extremely reckless and foolish actions with disastrous longterm consequences for America's position in the world are more likely to repeat that sort of behavior.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Chrisnonymous, @Dmon, @Matt Buckalew, @H. L. M, @Corvinus, @Tex, @Buzz Mohawk, @Anonymous

    Occam’s Razor —> “ They” in this case is a former Polish foreign minister who is highly alienated from the current Polish ruling party, despite both being more or less right of center. So unless the current Polish foreign minister starts echoing Sikorski about American culpability, I’d not take Sikorski’s comment too seriously.”

    But then than likely, it was Mossad. Jews are behind EVERY thing that goes bad in this world. At least that’s what I’ve been told by the Unz commentariat.

  186. @Ron Unz
    @Pericles


    So what were the supposed Ukrainian logistics in order to accomplish this? In fully deniable secrecy, of course. Please describe the details. Night train to Warsaw, drag the equipment and munitions to Gdansk train, rent fishing boat in Gdansk, …
     
    I suppose it's remotely possible that the Ukrainians did it, but even leaving aside the logistics of an operation hundreds of miles from their own country, I wonder if they have the necessary military underwater technology. It hardly seems a trivial operation.

    So Poland seems a much more likely suspect. But Sikorski, their former Foreign Minister, who's very well plugged in with America's political/national security establishment (married to Anne Applebaum) explicitly "thanked" America. Anyway, if Poland (or Ukraine) did it, I can't believe they would have taken such a step without authorization/encouragement by powerful elements of the American government. Probably no one would have asked Biden since he's out to lunch, but surely senior American figures would have given a green-light or quite likely ordered the operation itself, whether it was carried out by Polish proxies or directly by American forces.

    Naturally the Washington Post and other Deep State controlled MSM immediately blamed the Russians for blowing up their own pipeline, presumably because they're just evil and insane. Probably more than half the American public will be stupid enough to believe that.

    Given the disastrous energy problems Germany and the rest of Europe are facing this winter, the human consequences could be horrendous, but our ruling Deep State elements don't care about that. My guess is that most Europeans will sooner or later understand that elements of the American government were probably the ones ultimately responsible, with gigantic geopolitical consequences very harmful to America's longterm national interests. So the attack was an extremely reckless and foolish decision.

    So far, I'd guess that many or most of the iSteve commenters are probably nodding their heads in agreement. But now comes the "touchy" part.

    This entire scenario seems remarkably similar to the one I've been suggesting for more than two years on the origins of Covid, namely that there's strong perhaps even overwhelming evidence that the global epidemic was due to an American biowarfare attack against China (and Iran):

    https://www.unz.com/page/covid-biowarfare-articles/

    Just as in this case, Trump himself was almost certainly out of the loop, but the attack was probably orchestrated by top figures in his administration, who immediately tried (somewhat successfully) to blame the Chinese for the viral epidemic in their own country.

    National leaders who take extremely reckless and foolish actions with disastrous longterm consequences for America's position in the world are more likely to repeat that sort of behavior.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Chrisnonymous, @Dmon, @Matt Buckalew, @H. L. M, @Corvinus, @Tex, @Buzz Mohawk, @Anonymous

    But Sikorski, their former Foreign Minister, who’s very well plugged in with America’s political/national security establishment (married to Anne Applebaum) explicitly “thanked” America. Anyway, if Poland (or Ukraine) did it, I can’t believe they would have taken such a step without authorization/encouragement by powerful elements of the American government.

    Actual Uke divers could have carried out the mission, albeit with US assistance. That’s plausible deniability. After all, it was S Vietnamese commandos that carried out the shore attacks that ended up in the Tonkin Gulf Incident. History repeats, if only for a lack of originality.

    As for Sikorski, I think he said exactly what he was supposed to. There’s no point in provocation if the provocation is secret. The point of the provocation is to drive Russia into a hostile move that will (presumably) rally support for an all-out NATO war to crush Putin.

    Putin knows it was our action and we’re daring him to do something about it.

  187. @AnotherDad
    @Achmed E. Newman


    It’s time Americans start slowly separating themselves politically from the Potomac Regime. (We even have our own flags – the Rebel flag, Gadsden flag, and even the Stars & Stripes will do as the Potomac Regime has their own Pride flag now.)
     
    The Gadsden flag is great.

    I do not like the Rebel Flag--really the Army of Northern Virgina battle flag--because of its association with slavery. The Confederacy had the better "self-determination" argument, but slavery is a very old, very crappy institution we want no part of. In fact, we precisely do not want to be enslaved by our new "elite", diversity! peddling, cheap labor swilling masters.

    But the Gadsden flag is great, because it overtly hammers the f-off, "Don't Tread on Me" point while tying it richly to American history. It says:

    "We are the real Americans, with the real American spirit--not you 'nation of immigrants, America nothing but a big marketplace for looting people."

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Corvinus

    “We are the real Americans, with the real American spirit–not you ‘nation of immigrants, America nothing but a big marketplace for looting people.”

    You’re a straight up idiot, and anti white to boot. Tens of millions of American whites had ancestors who were immigrants. They currently champion your causes, and then you have the gall to lash out against them. It’s foul.

    • Replies: @anon
    @Corvinus

    Corevagina, abbreviated:

    https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/116/813/786/original/fc986da7c753e8a5.jpeg

  188. @Hypnotoad666
    @MEH 0910

    Yesterday, Steve was advocating a theory that it was a Polish op. without U.S. knowledge. Today, it's a Ukranian op. without U.S. knowledge. I guess you only lose social credit points on Twitter if you go against the U.S. Deep State directly.

    Replies: @Celt Darnell, @Corvinus

    Everything is a conspiracy and psych ops. Even Mr. Sailer is in on it.

    • Replies: @Hypnotoad666
    @Corvinus


    Everything is a conspiracy and psych ops.
     
    The funny thing is that you always default to dismissing any non-MSM view as a "conspiracy theory." But this time, the only thing everyone agrees on is that the pipeline bombing was a conspiracy.

    Replies: @Corvinus

  189. @Corvinus
    @Hypnotoad666

    Everything is a conspiracy and psych ops. Even Mr. Sailer is in on it.

    Replies: @Hypnotoad666

    Everything is a conspiracy and psych ops.

    The funny thing is that you always default to dismissing any non-MSM view as a “conspiracy theory.” But this time, the only thing everyone agrees on is that the pipeline bombing was a conspiracy.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @Hypnotoad666

    Again, the hilarious thing is you always default to blaming Jews or liberals or the Deep State for anything and everything. It’s like clockwork.

    “But this time, the only thing everyone agrees on is that the pipeline bombing was a conspiracy.“

    According to Who/Whom?

    Replies: @PhysicistDave, @Hypnotoad666

  190. @dimples
    It's true, the only state that benefits from the pipeline sabotage is the US. The Russians only needed to turn the tap off if that was their aim. Whatever contracts may be in force have been made null and void by EU sanctions and EU theft of Russian assets. The Krauts certainly didn't do it, the Greens in the German government are too imbecilic to arrange anything more complicated than a vegetable sandwich. If the Poles did it expecting the gas to now go through one of their own pipelines, fat chance, they'd be playing right into Putin's hands.

    So now even if the Krauts were going to crack in the middle of winter and dare to go up against US policy, they no longer have the option. After all, the world's fakest President has said the pipeline would be stopped, and US naval ships were in the area.....so just joining the dots here...

    Replies: @dimples

    Further to the above:
    1. The Nordstream 1 pipeline was already shut down as maintenance could not be carried out due to sanctions, according to the Russians. Thus no need to violate contracts, tap is already turned off.
    2. If the Germans were to drop sanctions on Russia, then Russia cannot now restart gas supplies through the pipeline(s). This is the main reason in my opinion why the sabotage was not carried out by Russia.

    The US deep state and military get major erotic thrills out of covert action in order to operate without consequences. Overall it seems quite reasonable to believe that this is a US product without further evidence.

  191. @Ron Unz
    @Pericles


    So what were the supposed Ukrainian logistics in order to accomplish this? In fully deniable secrecy, of course. Please describe the details. Night train to Warsaw, drag the equipment and munitions to Gdansk train, rent fishing boat in Gdansk, …
     
    I suppose it's remotely possible that the Ukrainians did it, but even leaving aside the logistics of an operation hundreds of miles from their own country, I wonder if they have the necessary military underwater technology. It hardly seems a trivial operation.

    So Poland seems a much more likely suspect. But Sikorski, their former Foreign Minister, who's very well plugged in with America's political/national security establishment (married to Anne Applebaum) explicitly "thanked" America. Anyway, if Poland (or Ukraine) did it, I can't believe they would have taken such a step without authorization/encouragement by powerful elements of the American government. Probably no one would have asked Biden since he's out to lunch, but surely senior American figures would have given a green-light or quite likely ordered the operation itself, whether it was carried out by Polish proxies or directly by American forces.

    Naturally the Washington Post and other Deep State controlled MSM immediately blamed the Russians for blowing up their own pipeline, presumably because they're just evil and insane. Probably more than half the American public will be stupid enough to believe that.

    Given the disastrous energy problems Germany and the rest of Europe are facing this winter, the human consequences could be horrendous, but our ruling Deep State elements don't care about that. My guess is that most Europeans will sooner or later understand that elements of the American government were probably the ones ultimately responsible, with gigantic geopolitical consequences very harmful to America's longterm national interests. So the attack was an extremely reckless and foolish decision.

    So far, I'd guess that many or most of the iSteve commenters are probably nodding their heads in agreement. But now comes the "touchy" part.

    This entire scenario seems remarkably similar to the one I've been suggesting for more than two years on the origins of Covid, namely that there's strong perhaps even overwhelming evidence that the global epidemic was due to an American biowarfare attack against China (and Iran):

    https://www.unz.com/page/covid-biowarfare-articles/

    Just as in this case, Trump himself was almost certainly out of the loop, but the attack was probably orchestrated by top figures in his administration, who immediately tried (somewhat successfully) to blame the Chinese for the viral epidemic in their own country.

    National leaders who take extremely reckless and foolish actions with disastrous longterm consequences for America's position in the world are more likely to repeat that sort of behavior.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Chrisnonymous, @Dmon, @Matt Buckalew, @H. L. M, @Corvinus, @Tex, @Buzz Mohawk, @Anonymous

    FWIW my loved ones in Romania and Hungary have been reporting to me for weeks now that there are grumblings among ordinary citizens there to the effect that they blame the United States for what is happening.

    They are worried about at least two things, and they blame “US” for them:

    1) An escalating war that could reach them.

    2) The economic consequences of all this.

    For a people who only in recent years have enjoyed something approaching the kind of stability in essential supplies that we Americans have for generations — for a people who to this day live on modest incomes — the potential for personal disaster reminiscent of not-so-distant times looms large.

    And again, many of them are starting to blame the United States. They are not stupid.

    • Thanks: PhysicistDave
  192. • Replies: @Corvinus
    @Cagey Beast

    Well, that’s what Putin gets for invading a sovereign nation.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @PhysicistDave

  193. 1) The logic about Ukraine is that they are attacking a pipeline that won’t hurt them – Nort Stream 1 & 2 do not pass through their territory.

    Unlike Soyuz, Progress Ujgorod – Urengoi, etc – pipelines, which are still active. Ukraine still gets the transition fees – business as usual, despite the war.

    2) It is a decisive blow against the Russians (a potential source of revenue and blackmail) and the Germans (the temptation to leave the anti-Russian camp in the winter).

    3) Easy and cheap to do – come on, everyone with an IQ over 90 can figure out how to blow a pipeline or cut an underwater cable, it is not rocket science. And a small team of special ops can certainly do it, for a relatively small amount of money.

    Have in mind it is probably much easier now to buy weapons in Ukraine and smuggle them in Poland now that there is a war and millions of Ukrainian refugees in Poland. One can easily load some undersea mines from let’s say Odessa on a van and smuggle them to let’s say Darlowo in Poland. Cheap.

    4) The US, like Germany, will certainly try to have policy alternatives, and it is not just the White House, but professionals in State Department and CIA that will certainly resist such an option. Not at least because they will fear similar sabotages, and no one likes for example to have satellites blown by aliens or underwater cables eaten by sharks. The US will be indecisive, in my opinion.

    So I think Greg Cochran is right. It is the most logical thing to do.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @Steven80

    “Easy and cheap to do – come on, everyone with an IQ over 90 can figure out how to blow a pipeline or cut an underwater cable, it is not rocket science.“

    I’d really like to see Chad Sailer, on a secret mission from the men of Unz to neuter the MSM, perform this feat. The intrepid NOTICER, deep in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, in his white skin suit slicing through a communications cable linking New York and England using Occam’s Butterknife.

    But since it’s so easy, why don’t you volunteer? Make sure to live stream it on Gab. Don’t drown.

    Replies: @Steven80

    , @CMC
    @Steven80

    The problem with the logic about the Ukraine is with term ‘the Ukraine.’ What if there is no Ukraine? No there there? No real country, not sovereign, not independent? More of a criminal oligarch cabal show country cat’s paw? Did Maiden happen or not? Did the US’s Euro-Viceroy go there with cookies or cupcakes or not?

    Valid logic requires proper apprehension of the nature of things. If we’re misapprehending exactly what ‘the Ukraine’ currently is or who ‘the Ukies’ currently are, then what follows is flawed and would lead to invalid conclusions or conclusions that are only valid by accident.

    Now, even agreeing with what I’m implying here, yes, there could be some rogue group or elements or faction of ‘Ukies’ who might be ready, willing and able to blow some pipelines in the Baltic.

    But to do so and get away with it? To think they could do it and get away with it? To think they could do it and only get caught by the US but figure that would be ok or worth it?

    IMO these types of questions lower the probability that it was ‘the ukies.’ I doubt it was any euro country or rogue element either.

    No, it seems to me most roads lead back to the US. Either in the inception or covering for some rogue element after the fact —like some group did it and now it’s a fait accompli that the US either has to cut them loose and make it (semi-) public, or ‘give them a pass’ and thereby end up accepting ultimate responsibility.

    Replies: @Bill Jones

  194. @Achmed E. Newman
    @AnotherDad

    The Rebel Flag is associated with "muh slavery" only due to 4 decades of Lyin' Press propaganda that I think has gotten to you too, A.D. In the 1970s it stood for The South, period. I'd seen black guys with the flag plate on the front of their muscle cars.

    Yes, the Gadsden Flag is a good one. Unfortunately, it has lost some of its poisonous bite, as I've seen too many groups fly it but do NOTHING against the Regime.

    Replies: @Joe Stalin

    The Rebel Flag is associated with “muh slavery” only due to 4 decades of Lyin’ Press propaganda that I think has gotten to you too, A.D. In the 1970s it stood for The South, period.

    Look at this 1953 US movie filmed in Korea. The Korean children are carrying Confederate Battle Flags!

    [27:43]

    Battle of Chosin

    • Thanks: Achmed E. Newman
  195. Mr. : ,
    Where did you find this quote from Mr. Cochran? It’s not on the “west hunter” blog.

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
    @null


    Where did you find this quote from Mr. Cochran? It’s not on the “west hunter” blog.
     
    https://twitter.com/gcochran99/status/1574790597575004161
    https://twitter.com/gcochran99/status/1574793394051641344

    Gregory Cochran lately appears to be most active on Twitter and not so much on the West Hunter blog.

  196. @PhysicistDave
    @Pericles

    Pericles wrote:


    If we take this flight of fancy somewhat seriously, I suppose that means Denmark or perhaps Germany could invoke uhhh clause 5 or whatever to marshal the full might of NATO against Ukrainian aggression. One for all and all for one.
     
    Since the explosions seem to have occurred in both Swedish and Danish waters, they are technically acts of war against both Sweden and Denmark.

    The question I keep pressing is: why has no one claimed credit?

    It would seem to be a real morale-booster for Zelensky, and I don't think he is too worried about "retaliation": Russia is already hitting him hard and likely to hit a lot harder in any case after the Donbass accedes to membership in the Russian Federation at the end of the week.

    Although I do wonder if Putin will announce that the Kremlin knows that Zelensky did it, so that Putin can rally his country around an escalation.

    Now, if NATO did it... it is easy to see why they are not taking credit -- it is, after all, an act of war.

    Could Poland have done it? They are damn fools if they did, and it is hard to imagine them doing it without US backing. Then, again, prudence has not always been a major Polish character trait...

    Replies: @Pericles, @Chrisnonymous, @Philip Neal

    Yes. The sabotage took place between Sweden (EU but not Nato) and the Danish (Nato, EU, but not the Eurozone) island of Bornholm, a listening post since the Cold War.

    This report from the BBC deserves parsing.

    Headline: Nord Stream leak: West shores up pipeline security, blaming Russia ‘sabotage’.

    Picture and caption: A Danish navy vessel on the island of Bornholm, near where the leaks occurred.

    Lede: European countries say they will ramp up security around oil and gas installations after the suspected sabotage of two major pipelines.

    Story: Danish Energy Minister said… European Commission head has promised… Nato Secretary General said… The prime minister of Norway (Nato but not EU) said…

    Note this bit.

    In the aftermath of the alleged attacks, Norway – now Europe’s largest gas supplier – has decided to deploy its military to protect crucial infrastructure.

    Prime Minister Jonas Gahr Stoere told a news conference that the military would be “more visible” at oil and gas installations.

    Any attack would be handled jointly with allies, he said.

    And this.

    And in the US, White House National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan said the country would continue its work to safeguard Europe’s energy security.

    Radek Sikorski left Communist Poland in the martial law period of the early 1980s to study at Oxford. I would not want to make too much of his membership of the absurd, restaurant-trashing Bullingdon Club (a network like that is only as important as its current membership) but he came from nowhere and you do not get into it unless you have money and connections. His primary loyalty is to the European Union and certainly not to the current government of Poland.

    The role of the European Union has been much neglected in connection with all this. Can it be that the concealed motive of the attack on Nord Stream (and possibly with previous Ukrainian crises) is to force semi-detached European states into ever closer union with the EU?

  197. @botazefa
    @Fluesterwitz

    It's going to be very hard for the Germans to deny that the Nordstream sabotage was not targeted at them, regardless of who did it.

    The first NATO Secretary General, Lord Ismay, stated the organization’s goal was "to keep the Russians out, the Americans in, and the Germans down". Google has a lot of hits on that quote.

    Maybe the Ukraine makes more sense as a proxy war against Germany & Russia because they were starting to work together, which intentionally or accidentally challenges US hegemony in Europe.

    Replies: @Lockean Proviso

    Meanwhile China rises higher and Africans breed and migrate as whites slaughter and sabotage one another.

  198. Anonymous[213] • Disclaimer says:
    @Adept
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    Diving to a 40m depth is beginner-tier -- "my first PADI diving course" level -- and, even from that depth, munitions can be dropped onto a pipeline 80m deep. This would require very little in the way of skill.

    Dives to 110m are trivial for trained professionals with appropriate equipment.

    The depth of the pipeline makes it more likely, not less likely, to be simple sabotage.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    Diving to a 40m depth is beginner-tier — “my first PADI diving course” level

    That’s literally not true. It sounds like you’re not adept with the metric system.

    — and, even from that depth, munitions can be dropped onto a pipeline 80m deep. This would require very little in the way of skill.

    So, “drop” explosives and hope for the best? And the pipeline isn’t 80m deep.

    Dives to 110m are trivial for trained professionals with appropriate equipment.

    “Trivial”? Then I definitely want to see you go first.

    • Replies: @Adept
    @Anonymous

    I know we're talking meters, not feet. One of my earliest dives, as a total novice, was to 40m. (I got a PADI "deep dive" merit badge for that one.) 110m is easy if you've got experience & are using the right gas mix, and going deep is fun. Do you even dive, bro?

    Replies: @Anonymous

  199. @Tex
    The Deep State got away with bumping off Jeffery Epstein and stealing the '20 election and a whole list of horrors. And there was no particular consequences for it. Why not this?

    I'm sure the presence of USN ships with special undersea capabilities (like blowing stuff up underwater) in the exact AO at the time is a TOTAL coinkidink. And if it isn't who cares? What are you going to do about it? Putin could do something about it, which I think is precisely what the neocons want.

    Saddam's giant stockpiles of WMD, the totally unproved attack on the USS Maddox, the list goes on. It's not hard for a warmonger to spread lies to get the war they want. People don't look terribly hard when they are prepared by propaganda to want war.

    No, not everything is a false flag. The Japs DID attack Pearl Harbor. Muslim terrorists DID carry out 9-11. But truth gets mixed with lies all the time, you have to look at the cases and the facts.

    More importantly, you need to know what's in your best interests. Solve that and the rest is simple. The only enemy of the American people are the people running America.

    Replies: @botazefa

    Yes, the “Japs” did attack Pearl Harbor.

    And there is important context:

    1. FDR cut off oil to Japan,
    2. FDR refused multiple attempts by Japan to negotiate a solution before Dec 7. Including on Dec 6 ’41.

    Much like FDR before him, Biden’s teleprompter is lying to the American people that we won’t be going to war with Russia while we are literally making war on Russia. And Germany, apparently.

    But you seem to know this already.

    During WW2, prior to official entry into war (during lend-lease), the US was targeting and sinking German vessels in the Atlantic and lying about it. Even a false flag against a US warship didn’t rouse the Americans to want to enter open war. FDR desperately wanted into WW2 but despite his best efforts, the American people were strongly against it. Then he got the gift of Dec 7 and ‘The Sleeping Giant” awoke. The solution to the Depression was in hand.

    The ruling elite desperately need a War now. We have a serious economic crisis in the US and the UK. The Central Banks are up against a wall. It’s not the Great Depression yet, but it’s headed that way.

    Biden’s Teleprompter is needs to awaken the Sleeping Giant once again. My fear is that the US/NATO is intentionally provoking a Russian tactical nuke deployment on Kiev for the purpose of rallying support for massive war in Europe. A modern Pearl Harbor, if you will.

    China will grab Taiwan and grab other low lying fruit, but that’s a small price to pay I suppose.

    Somebody, anybody, tell me I’m crazy.

  200. @Hypnotoad666
    @Corvinus


    Everything is a conspiracy and psych ops.
     
    The funny thing is that you always default to dismissing any non-MSM view as a "conspiracy theory." But this time, the only thing everyone agrees on is that the pipeline bombing was a conspiracy.

    Replies: @Corvinus

    Again, the hilarious thing is you always default to blaming Jews or liberals or the Deep State for anything and everything. It’s like clockwork.

    “But this time, the only thing everyone agrees on is that the pipeline bombing was a conspiracy.“

    According to Who/Whom?

    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
    @Corvinus

    Corvinus wrote to Hypnotoad666"


    [Corvy] Again, the hilarious thing is you always default to blaming Jews or liberals or the Deep State for anything and everything. It’s like clockwork.

    [Hyp] “But this time, the only thing everyone agrees on is that the pipeline bombing was a conspiracy.“

    [Corvy] According to Who/Whom?
     
    A conspiracy is just more than one person working together in secrecy to cause some harm.

    You really think one single person did this by himself?

    If not, by dictionary definition, it is indeed a conspiracy.

    All grown-ups (and most kids) know that the world is full of conspiracies: alas, lots of people get together secretly with other people to do bad things.

    I think even you know that, don't you, Benito?
    , @Hypnotoad666
    @Corvinus

    Res ipsa loquitur: The Nordstream II pipeline did not kill itself.

    Replies: @Corvinus

  201. @Steven80
    1) The logic about Ukraine is that they are attacking a pipeline that won't hurt them - Nort Stream 1 & 2 do not pass through their territory.

    Unlike Soyuz, Progress Ujgorod - Urengoi, etc - pipelines, which are still active. Ukraine still gets the transition fees - business as usual, despite the war.

    2) It is a decisive blow against the Russians (a potential source of revenue and blackmail) and the Germans (the temptation to leave the anti-Russian camp in the winter).

    3) Easy and cheap to do - come on, everyone with an IQ over 90 can figure out how to blow a pipeline or cut an underwater cable, it is not rocket science. And a small team of special ops can certainly do it, for a relatively small amount of money.

    Have in mind it is probably much easier now to buy weapons in Ukraine and smuggle them in Poland now that there is a war and millions of Ukrainian refugees in Poland. One can easily load some undersea mines from let's say Odessa on a van and smuggle them to let's say Darlowo in Poland. Cheap.

    4) The US, like Germany, will certainly try to have policy alternatives, and it is not just the White House, but professionals in State Department and CIA that will certainly resist such an option. Not at least because they will fear similar sabotages, and no one likes for example to have satellites blown by aliens or underwater cables eaten by sharks. The US will be indecisive, in my opinion.

    So I think Greg Cochran is right. It is the most logical thing to do.

    Replies: @Corvinus, @CMC

    “Easy and cheap to do – come on, everyone with an IQ over 90 can figure out how to blow a pipeline or cut an underwater cable, it is not rocket science.“

    I’d really like to see Chad Sailer, on a secret mission from the men of Unz to neuter the MSM, perform this feat. The intrepid NOTICER, deep in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, in his white skin suit slicing through a communications cable linking New York and England using Occam’s Butterknife.

    But since it’s so easy, why don’t you volunteer? Make sure to live stream it on Gab. Don’t drown.

    • Replies: @Steven80
    @Corvinus

    You know how to use a search engine, do you? There are dozens of examples, here are a few of them:

    https://techcrunch.com/2013/03/28/three-men-arrested-for-attempting-to-cut-undersea-internet-cable-in-egypt/

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2008/feb/01/internationalpersonalfinancebusiness.internet

    https://www.wired.com/story/yemen-internet-blackout-undersea-cable/

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7792688.stm


    No one needs to dive. Especially in the middle of the Atlantic. And why should I volunteer - what's your logic? Ah, sorry, I said an IQ of 90, it's not that you can do anything about it ...

    Replies: @Corvinus

  202. @Cagey Beast
    https://twitter.com/Partisangirl/status/1574950314519990273

    Replies: @Corvinus

    Well, that’s what Putin gets for invading a sovereign nation.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    @Corvinus


    @Cagey Beast

    Well, that’s what Putin gets for invading a sovereign nation.
     
    What do we get for invading Iraq, d**khead?
    , @PhysicistDave
    @Corvinus

    Corvinus wrote to Cagey Beast:


    Well, that’s what Putin gets for invading a sovereign nation.
     
    What "sovereign nation"?

    Putin was invited in by the independent Donbass republics to help them defend themselves against the illegal puppet regime that the US installed in 2014 in Kiev.

    The US violated international law, not Putin.

    Facts are terrible things, aren't they?
  203. @Jack D
    @Mr. Anon

    No it won't. German gas storage is 92% full. No one is going to freeze. Obviously there are going to be costs associated with replacing Russian gas but OMG the Germans will freeze to death is not one of them.

    Replies: @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Mr. Anon, @Zelo

    I didn’t say they were going to freeze to death. I said they were going to be colder. And they will be. They’re mandating lower thermostat settings, not only in public buildings but also in rental units. I’m sure some dilligent officials will set them lower in private residences too. And the nice thing about that, from a government’s point of view, is that having established the precedent that they decide how warm or cold you will be, they will undoubtedly wish to continue to do so.

    • Agree: PhysicistDave
    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Mr. Anon

    Public buildings will be heated only to 19C (66F). Oh, the horror! Think of the poor shivering children! The hardship will be unbearable!

    Central heating is rare in Japan. Most buildings (residential and public) are much colder than is expected in the West. They wear their overcoats inside public buildings. At home they have various ways of heating only the space you are in such as the kotatsu which is a table with a blanket overhang and a small (nowadays electric) heater underneath - you put your legs under the quilt and they get warm. Or little kerosene space heaters such as found used to be found in American ghettos when the power company would shut you off for non-payment in winter (now there are laws against winter shutoffs). But in Japan almost everyone has these heaters. Otherwise, it is friggin' cold indoors and they just accept it as normal.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon

  204. @Corvinus
    @Cagey Beast

    Well, that’s what Putin gets for invading a sovereign nation.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @PhysicistDave

    Well, that’s what Putin gets for invading a sovereign nation.

    What do we get for invading Iraq, d**khead?

  205. @he's smart but not THAT smart
    The Germans are housing 800K Ukrainian refugees. Ukrainians are relying on German PzH2000, GMLRS and state-of-the-art short range air defense. It's kind of reassuring to see Cochran make a complete fool out of himself once in a while. I remember another complete miss by him - attributing Assad's chemical weapons attack (whether 2017 or 2018 one I do not remember) to Turks (I think he did that on Future Strategist podcast)

    Replies: @Unladen Swallow

    Pretty sure he didn’t say that, I don’t recall any discussion about chemical weapons and Turkey supplying them. He might have said Russia was behind the Syrian use of chemical weapons, but that’s a world of difference.

    He also argues that chemical weapons are not any more effective than conventional ones, especially since counter measures have been well known since World War I.

  206. @Achmed E. Newman
    @Altai

    I have no argument with the rest of your comment, Altai, due to my knowing almost nothing about these Euro politics. On this:


    ... and also Denmark who have an environmental catastrophe off Bornholm)
     
    I don't know. It's nothing like an oil spill. Sea life may be affected. I didn't get all the details, but it looks like this leak was 10 or so miles east or southeast of the 227 mi^2 island of 40,000 people. I suppose if the wind starts blowing out of the east people will smell it (assuming the mercaptan, the ingredient for the smell, had already been added).

    I'd like to know if the Russians can drain out some of the (originally 11 billion ft^3) NG from their end and how long it will take to empty the pipeline(s). Can it be repaired before that time anyway?

    It doesn't sound like a catastrophe for Bornholm, though, except for possibly the fishing. As for the whole world, as I've read* in places, the emptying of the entire amount in into the atmosphere will result in an extra 1 part per 10 billion spread over the world's first 3 miles of atmosphere, per a quick calculation.

    BTW, they may as well light it up for fun at least. It'd be like a temporary large Bunsen Burner for the scientific community.

    .

    * yahoo, who I try to avoid, called it a Climate Calamity, which I gotta admit, has a great ring to it.

    Replies: @Alfa158, @David Davenport, @Reg Cæsar

    I don’t know. It’s nothing like an oil spill. Sea life may be affected. I didn’t get all the details, but it looks like this leak was 10 or so miles east or southeast of the 227 mi^2 island of 40,000 people. I suppose if the wind starts blowing out of the east people will smell it (assuming the mercaptan, the ingredient for the smell, had already been added).

    Natural gas is 90+ percent methane, CH4. The gas won’t stay in the ocean. It will all float to the surface and up into the atmosphere.

    By the way, methane’s “greenhouse’ effects are exaggerated.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @David Davenport

    Thanks and agreed. Thanks for that info on methane - I don't know enough about the chemistry and it's tendency (or lack thereof) to stay in solution in sea water.

    Agreed that the effect of methane along with all the rest of the greenhouse gases is not only exaggerated but unknown. The greenhouse effect is known, but modeling the whole Earth's climate with many dozens of physical processes is not an easy thing and has not been done successfully.

  207. Folks, you’ll never get iSteve to admit to NATO/DOD/MI5/6 perfidy, so don’t bother trying.

    Both he and I were raised on defense dollars. Our morning cereal, our youth sports teams. our Ovaltine secret messages. And our Christmas mornings with a cornucopia of battle/exploration games. It’s too much milk that’s too rich from a world-historical teat. We just can’t turn from the teat.

    • Agree: PhysicistDave
    • Replies: @MEH 0910
    @smetana


    our Ovaltine secret messages.
     
    That would have been Jean Shepherd's generation.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovaltine#In_popular_culture


    The U.S. children's radio series Little Orphan Annie (1931–1940) and Captain Midnight (1938–1949), and the subsequent Captain Midnight TV series (1954–1956), were sponsored by Ovaltine. They had promotions in which listeners could save proofs-of-purchase from Ovaltine jars to obtain radio premiums, such as "secret decoder ring" badges, or pins that could be used to decode messages in the program.[20]

    In the movie A Christmas Story, Ovaltine is mentioned when Ralphie, played by actor Peter Billingsley, solves a cryptogram puzzle from a secret message by the popular radio show Little Orphan Annie.[21]
     

    A Crummy Commercial | A Christmas Story | TBS
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_XSShVAnkY

    Little Orphan Annie a corporate shill? Say it ain't so, Ralphie! Say it ain't so!
     
  208. Come on! This is ridiculous! It is obvious who did it. Who has the tecnhical ability to do it? Who can access waters of NATO countries? WHO benefits the most? Who has been most against Nordstream 2?

    You can say Ukraine, Russia or North Korea or Cuba, if you want to fool yourself or muddy the waters

  209. @Corvinus
    @Steven80

    “Easy and cheap to do – come on, everyone with an IQ over 90 can figure out how to blow a pipeline or cut an underwater cable, it is not rocket science.“

    I’d really like to see Chad Sailer, on a secret mission from the men of Unz to neuter the MSM, perform this feat. The intrepid NOTICER, deep in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, in his white skin suit slicing through a communications cable linking New York and England using Occam’s Butterknife.

    But since it’s so easy, why don’t you volunteer? Make sure to live stream it on Gab. Don’t drown.

    Replies: @Steven80

    You know how to use a search engine, do you? There are dozens of examples, here are a few of them:

    https://techcrunch.com/2013/03/28/three-men-arrested-for-attempting-to-cut-undersea-internet-cable-in-egypt/

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2008/feb/01/internationalpersonalfinancebusiness.internet

    https://www.wired.com/story/yemen-internet-blackout-undersea-cable/

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7792688.stm

    No one needs to dive. Especially in the middle of the Atlantic. And why should I volunteer – what’s your logic? Ah, sorry, I said an IQ of 90, it’s not that you can do anything about it …

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @Steven80

    Lol, only the first article you listed showed individuals with the intent to cut an underwater cable, but they weee arrested before they accomplish their goal. The other links specified accidents caused by boats and submarines, and even talked about land cables being cut.

    Nice try.

    “No one needs to dive. Especially in the middle of the Atlantic.”

    Right, because the cables there are quite easy to see. lol.

  210. @HammerJack
    @bispora


    It’s a disgrace what you Americans are doing to us Europeans…
     
    Yeah, it's called "effing over" and the USA has been doing it to much of the world since ww2 if not longer.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    <blockquote>Yeah, it’s called “effing over” and the USA has been doing it to much of the world since ww2 if not longer.

    The rest of the world is not serious. E.g., Paris:



  211. @Achmed E. Newman
    @Altai

    I have no argument with the rest of your comment, Altai, due to my knowing almost nothing about these Euro politics. On this:


    ... and also Denmark who have an environmental catastrophe off Bornholm)
     
    I don't know. It's nothing like an oil spill. Sea life may be affected. I didn't get all the details, but it looks like this leak was 10 or so miles east or southeast of the 227 mi^2 island of 40,000 people. I suppose if the wind starts blowing out of the east people will smell it (assuming the mercaptan, the ingredient for the smell, had already been added).

    I'd like to know if the Russians can drain out some of the (originally 11 billion ft^3) NG from their end and how long it will take to empty the pipeline(s). Can it be repaired before that time anyway?

    It doesn't sound like a catastrophe for Bornholm, though, except for possibly the fishing. As for the whole world, as I've read* in places, the emptying of the entire amount in into the atmosphere will result in an extra 1 part per 10 billion spread over the world's first 3 miles of atmosphere, per a quick calculation.

    BTW, they may as well light it up for fun at least. It'd be like a temporary large Bunsen Burner for the scientific community.

    .

    * yahoo, who I try to avoid, called it a Climate Calamity, which I gotta admit, has a great ring to it.

    Replies: @Alfa158, @David Davenport, @Reg Cæsar

    It doesn’t sound like a catastrophe for Bornholm…

    Fun fact: the Danish word for grandfather clock is Bornholmer. That would be like our calling it a Nantucketer or an Oahuan. Then again, many people call a patio a lanai.

    Bornholmertraße was one of the Berlin Wall crossings:

    Dark Tourism: BORNHOLMER STRASSE

    Bornholm is closer to Sweden, Germany, and even Poland than to the rest of Denmark.

  212. Anonymous[186] • Disclaimer says:
    @Ron Unz
    @Pericles


    So what were the supposed Ukrainian logistics in order to accomplish this? In fully deniable secrecy, of course. Please describe the details. Night train to Warsaw, drag the equipment and munitions to Gdansk train, rent fishing boat in Gdansk, …
     
    I suppose it's remotely possible that the Ukrainians did it, but even leaving aside the logistics of an operation hundreds of miles from their own country, I wonder if they have the necessary military underwater technology. It hardly seems a trivial operation.

    So Poland seems a much more likely suspect. But Sikorski, their former Foreign Minister, who's very well plugged in with America's political/national security establishment (married to Anne Applebaum) explicitly "thanked" America. Anyway, if Poland (or Ukraine) did it, I can't believe they would have taken such a step without authorization/encouragement by powerful elements of the American government. Probably no one would have asked Biden since he's out to lunch, but surely senior American figures would have given a green-light or quite likely ordered the operation itself, whether it was carried out by Polish proxies or directly by American forces.

    Naturally the Washington Post and other Deep State controlled MSM immediately blamed the Russians for blowing up their own pipeline, presumably because they're just evil and insane. Probably more than half the American public will be stupid enough to believe that.

    Given the disastrous energy problems Germany and the rest of Europe are facing this winter, the human consequences could be horrendous, but our ruling Deep State elements don't care about that. My guess is that most Europeans will sooner or later understand that elements of the American government were probably the ones ultimately responsible, with gigantic geopolitical consequences very harmful to America's longterm national interests. So the attack was an extremely reckless and foolish decision.

    So far, I'd guess that many or most of the iSteve commenters are probably nodding their heads in agreement. But now comes the "touchy" part.

    This entire scenario seems remarkably similar to the one I've been suggesting for more than two years on the origins of Covid, namely that there's strong perhaps even overwhelming evidence that the global epidemic was due to an American biowarfare attack against China (and Iran):

    https://www.unz.com/page/covid-biowarfare-articles/

    Just as in this case, Trump himself was almost certainly out of the loop, but the attack was probably orchestrated by top figures in his administration, who immediately tried (somewhat successfully) to blame the Chinese for the viral epidemic in their own country.

    National leaders who take extremely reckless and foolish actions with disastrous longterm consequences for America's position in the world are more likely to repeat that sort of behavior.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Chrisnonymous, @Dmon, @Matt Buckalew, @H. L. M, @Corvinus, @Tex, @Buzz Mohawk, @Anonymous

    My guess is that most Europeans will sooner or later understand that elements of the American government were probably the ones ultimately responsible, with gigantic geopolitical consequences very harmful to America’s longterm national interests.

    That is the one important consequence of the pipeline demolitions: the US has involved Europe in a shooting war that has just destroyed important European infrastructure. The US is suzerain to Europe because it promised to prevent more mechanized warfare (such as WW II) in Europe and because it promised to ensure prosperity.

    Both promises have now been broken decisively. (a) The Ukraine/Russian Federation conflict threatened to re-introduce the mass destruction of mechanized warfare into Europe, and has now done so, albeit in a limited manner thus far. (b) The Italian elections just completed demonstrate that Italians, at least, believe that economic prosperity that explicitly attacks the family is not any kind of prosperity.

    That means the foundation of US suzerainty in Europe is gone, and Europe will eject the US. In the long term, that will be the final retreat US suzerainty over any part of Eurasia, which implies the end of Globalism (world trade will collapse into regional trade) and of the ability of the US to collect tribute in the form of borrowing money in a high inflationary environment (“monetization of the debt” in technical terms), and the consequent end of US domestic politics in its present form.

    Damn. Not again.

  213. I understand that the Scandinavians have been antsy about Soviet/Russian subs for decades, and therefore have lots of underwater surveilance equipment in the Baltic, which is a shallow sea. How do the Russians get in there and pull this off? Unlikely.

  214. @null
    Mr. : @Steve Sailer,
    Where did you find this quote from Mr. Cochran? It's not on the "west hunter" blog.

    Replies: @MEH 0910

    Where did you find this quote from Mr. Cochran? It’s not on the “west hunter” blog.

    Gregory Cochran lately appears to be most active on Twitter and not so much on the West Hunter blog.

  215. @smetana
    Folks, you'll never get iSteve to admit to NATO/DOD/MI5/6 perfidy, so don't bother trying.

    Both he and I were raised on defense dollars. Our morning cereal, our youth sports teams. our Ovaltine secret messages. And our Christmas mornings with a cornucopia of battle/exploration games. It's too much milk that's too rich from a world-historical teat. We just can't turn from the teat.

    Replies: @MEH 0910

    our Ovaltine secret messages.

    That would have been Jean Shepherd‘s generation.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovaltine#In_popular_culture

    The U.S. children’s radio series Little Orphan Annie (1931–1940) and Captain Midnight (1938–1949), and the subsequent Captain Midnight TV series (1954–1956), were sponsored by Ovaltine. They had promotions in which listeners could save proofs-of-purchase from Ovaltine jars to obtain radio premiums, such as “secret decoder ring” badges, or pins that could be used to decode messages in the program.[20]

    In the movie A Christmas Story, Ovaltine is mentioned when Ralphie, played by actor Peter Billingsley, solves a cryptogram puzzle from a secret message by the popular radio show Little Orphan Annie.[21]

    A Crummy Commercial | A Christmas Story | TBS

    Little Orphan Annie a corporate shill? Say it ain’t so, Ralphie! Say it ain’t so!

  216. @Jack D
    @Mr. Anon

    No it won't. German gas storage is 92% full. No one is going to freeze. Obviously there are going to be costs associated with replacing Russian gas but OMG the Germans will freeze to death is not one of them.

    Replies: @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Mr. Anon, @Zelo

    but OMG the Germans will freeze to death

    Oh come on Jack, you don’t really think Germans freezing to death is a bad thing do you?

  217. @Anonymous
    @Adept


    Diving to a 40m depth is beginner-tier — “my first PADI diving course” level
     
    That's literally not true. It sounds like you're not adept with the metric system.

    — and, even from that depth, munitions can be dropped onto a pipeline 80m deep. This would require very little in the way of skill.
     
    So, "drop" explosives and hope for the best? And the pipeline isn't 80m deep.

    Dives to 110m are trivial for trained professionals with appropriate equipment.
     
    "Trivial"? Then I definitely want to see you go first.

    Replies: @Adept

    I know we’re talking meters, not feet. One of my earliest dives, as a total novice, was to 40m. (I got a PADI “deep dive” merit badge for that one.) 110m is easy if you’ve got experience & are using the right gas mix, and going deep is fun. Do you even dive, bro?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Adept


    Diving to a 40m depth is beginner-tier — “my first PADI diving course” level —
     
    Yeah, uh, still no.

    From the PADI website:
    "Depth: expect shallow dives (12m/40ft), the maximum allowed depth is 18m/60ft"

    My other objections also stand. Do you even memory bro? Bless your heart.
  218. @Craken
    @PhysicistDave

    I don't think Kiev's silence is much of a mystery if it is behind the sabotage. It might wish to remain silent about its achievement because this attack would give the Russians a good excuse to escalate. The Russians, as you know, have far more escalation options than the Ukrainians. And the Russians are currently losing the war.

    Replies: @PhysicistDave

    Craken wrote to me:

    And the Russians are currently losing the war.

    Hmm… I suppose that if I were insane enough to get into the ring with Mike Tyson, and Tyson took a step backwards, I could claim that, for that instant, Tyson was losing the fight.

    But we all know how it would turn out.

    As I keep emphasizing, you win a war by creating a situation in which the other side is either unable or unwilling to continue fighting.

    And the referendum in the Donbass over the last few days is Putin’s commitment that he does not intend to stop fighting: shortly, Putin is going to tell Kiev to remove its troops from (new) Russian territory or face massive retaliation.

    Kiev’s only hope was to convince Moscow that it was just not worth it. But now Moscow will be defending Russian territory.

    Russia is Mike Tyson. Ukraine is an idiot who got in the ring with Tyson.

    Tyson is not losing.

    • Agree: BB753
    • Replies: @BB753
    @PhysicistDave

    But an idiot who didn't get alone in the ring against Tyson. Even cheating, Ukraine is losing on all fronts. Except underwater, I guess.

  219. @Corvinus
    @Hypnotoad666

    Again, the hilarious thing is you always default to blaming Jews or liberals or the Deep State for anything and everything. It’s like clockwork.

    “But this time, the only thing everyone agrees on is that the pipeline bombing was a conspiracy.“

    According to Who/Whom?

    Replies: @PhysicistDave, @Hypnotoad666

    Corvinus wrote to Hypnotoad666″

    [Corvy] Again, the hilarious thing is you always default to blaming Jews or liberals or the Deep State for anything and everything. It’s like clockwork.

    [Hyp] “But this time, the only thing everyone agrees on is that the pipeline bombing was a conspiracy.“

    [Corvy] According to Who/Whom?

    A conspiracy is just more than one person working together in secrecy to cause some harm.

    You really think one single person did this by himself?

    If not, by dictionary definition, it is indeed a conspiracy.

    All grown-ups (and most kids) know that the world is full of conspiracies: alas, lots of people get together secretly with other people to do bad things.

    I think even you know that, don’t you, Benito?

  220. @Corvinus
    @Cagey Beast

    Well, that’s what Putin gets for invading a sovereign nation.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @PhysicistDave

    Corvinus wrote to Cagey Beast:

    Well, that’s what Putin gets for invading a sovereign nation.

    What “sovereign nation”?

    Putin was invited in by the independent Donbass republics to help them defend themselves against the illegal puppet regime that the US installed in 2014 in Kiev.

    The US violated international law, not Putin.

    Facts are terrible things, aren’t they?

  221. @Jack D
    @vinteuil

    I'm leaning toward the theory that this was done so that Gazprom could invoke continue to invoke "force majeure" and continue not delivering gas without being liable for contractual damages because the "broken turbine" excuse was reaching its sell-by date. Given the current difference between the contracted price and the price to cover in the market, these damages would be very substantial.

    He hasn't really thrown away anything - various estimates have been given of the time to repair but it could be as little as one week. Basically they just have to replace a few sections of pipe. If this is "sending a message" it's more like breaking the windshield on a car, not setting the whole car on fire.

    Replies: @Inselaffen, @Hunsdon

    Wait, Jack—-so this comment by you from earlier upthread is no longer valid?

    JackD: But with the pipeline intact, he could turn them back on just as quickly as he turned them off. This was saying to the Germans (and to himself and to the oligarchs) that no deal is possible anymore. The divorce is permanent.

    Are you consciously arguing in the alternative, or are you just changing your response when asked a different question? (Not necessarily accusing you of bad faith, here—-it’s a common trait.)

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Hunsdon

    I've put out several alternative possible explanations/speculations. I don't think anyone has enough information at this point to say which one is right - I sure don't.

    In fact the people CLAIMING to have information (this must be the US because the US was there this summer, because Biden said that #2 would not be put in service, etc. ) are generally full of shit - their "proof" is not really proof of anything. They come to their conclusion 1st and then look for "proof" of what they already have concluded (the "neocons" must have dun it).

  222. @Steven80
    @Corvinus

    You know how to use a search engine, do you? There are dozens of examples, here are a few of them:

    https://techcrunch.com/2013/03/28/three-men-arrested-for-attempting-to-cut-undersea-internet-cable-in-egypt/

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2008/feb/01/internationalpersonalfinancebusiness.internet

    https://www.wired.com/story/yemen-internet-blackout-undersea-cable/

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7792688.stm


    No one needs to dive. Especially in the middle of the Atlantic. And why should I volunteer - what's your logic? Ah, sorry, I said an IQ of 90, it's not that you can do anything about it ...

    Replies: @Corvinus

    Lol, only the first article you listed showed individuals with the intent to cut an underwater cable, but they weee arrested before they accomplish their goal. The other links specified accidents caused by boats and submarines, and even talked about land cables being cut.

    Nice try.

    “No one needs to dive. Especially in the middle of the Atlantic.”

    Right, because the cables there are quite easy to see. lol.

  223. @PhysicistDave
    @Craken

    Craken wrote to me:


    And the Russians are currently losing the war.
     
    Hmm... I suppose that if I were insane enough to get into the ring with Mike Tyson, and Tyson took a step backwards, I could claim that, for that instant, Tyson was losing the fight.

    But we all know how it would turn out.

    As I keep emphasizing, you win a war by creating a situation in which the other side is either unable or unwilling to continue fighting.

    And the referendum in the Donbass over the last few days is Putin's commitment that he does not intend to stop fighting: shortly, Putin is going to tell Kiev to remove its troops from (new) Russian territory or face massive retaliation.

    Kiev's only hope was to convince Moscow that it was just not worth it. But now Moscow will be defending Russian territory.

    Russia is Mike Tyson. Ukraine is an idiot who got in the ring with Tyson.

    Tyson is not losing.

    Replies: @BB753

    But an idiot who didn’t get alone in the ring against Tyson. Even cheating, Ukraine is losing on all fronts. Except underwater, I guess.

  224. @Steven80
    1) The logic about Ukraine is that they are attacking a pipeline that won't hurt them - Nort Stream 1 & 2 do not pass through their territory.

    Unlike Soyuz, Progress Ujgorod - Urengoi, etc - pipelines, which are still active. Ukraine still gets the transition fees - business as usual, despite the war.

    2) It is a decisive blow against the Russians (a potential source of revenue and blackmail) and the Germans (the temptation to leave the anti-Russian camp in the winter).

    3) Easy and cheap to do - come on, everyone with an IQ over 90 can figure out how to blow a pipeline or cut an underwater cable, it is not rocket science. And a small team of special ops can certainly do it, for a relatively small amount of money.

    Have in mind it is probably much easier now to buy weapons in Ukraine and smuggle them in Poland now that there is a war and millions of Ukrainian refugees in Poland. One can easily load some undersea mines from let's say Odessa on a van and smuggle them to let's say Darlowo in Poland. Cheap.

    4) The US, like Germany, will certainly try to have policy alternatives, and it is not just the White House, but professionals in State Department and CIA that will certainly resist such an option. Not at least because they will fear similar sabotages, and no one likes for example to have satellites blown by aliens or underwater cables eaten by sharks. The US will be indecisive, in my opinion.

    So I think Greg Cochran is right. It is the most logical thing to do.

    Replies: @Corvinus, @CMC

    The problem with the logic about the Ukraine is with term ‘the Ukraine.’ What if there is no Ukraine? No there there? No real country, not sovereign, not independent? More of a criminal oligarch cabal show country cat’s paw? Did Maiden happen or not? Did the US’s Euro-Viceroy go there with cookies or cupcakes or not?

    Valid logic requires proper apprehension of the nature of things. If we’re misapprehending exactly what ‘the Ukraine’ currently is or who ‘the Ukies’ currently are, then what follows is flawed and would lead to invalid conclusions or conclusions that are only valid by accident.

    Now, even agreeing with what I’m implying here, yes, there could be some rogue group or elements or faction of ‘Ukies’ who might be ready, willing and able to blow some pipelines in the Baltic.

    But to do so and get away with it? To think they could do it and get away with it? To think they could do it and only get caught by the US but figure that would be ok or worth it?

    IMO these types of questions lower the probability that it was ‘the ukies.’ I doubt it was any euro country or rogue element either.

    No, it seems to me most roads lead back to the US. Either in the inception or covering for some rogue element after the fact —like some group did it and now it’s a fait accompli that the US either has to cut them loose and make it (semi-) public, or ‘give them a pass’ and thereby end up accepting ultimate responsibility.

    • Replies: @Bill Jones
    @CMC

    The Ukraine was always correct. It means The Border, The Edge, The Rim etc. it was the borderlands over which various tribes washed and warred for hundreds of years, No more a separate land than The South or The North .

  225. @Adept
    @Anonymous

    I know we're talking meters, not feet. One of my earliest dives, as a total novice, was to 40m. (I got a PADI "deep dive" merit badge for that one.) 110m is easy if you've got experience & are using the right gas mix, and going deep is fun. Do you even dive, bro?

    Replies: @Anonymous

    Diving to a 40m depth is beginner-tier — “my first PADI diving course” level —

    Yeah, uh, still no.

    From the PADI website:
    “Depth: expect shallow dives (12m/40ft), the maximum allowed depth is 18m/60ft”

    My other objections also stand. Do you even memory bro? Bless your heart.

  226. @David Davenport
    @Achmed E. Newman

    I don’t know. It’s nothing like an oil spill. Sea life may be affected. I didn’t get all the details, but it looks like this leak was 10 or so miles east or southeast of the 227 mi^2 island of 40,000 people. I suppose if the wind starts blowing out of the east people will smell it (assuming the mercaptan, the ingredient for the smell, had already been added).

    Natural gas is 90+ percent methane, CH4. The gas won't stay in the ocean. It will all float to the surface and up into the atmosphere.

    By the way, methane's "greenhouse' effects are exaggerated.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    Thanks and agreed. Thanks for that info on methane – I don’t know enough about the chemistry and it’s tendency (or lack thereof) to stay in solution in sea water.

    Agreed that the effect of methane along with all the rest of the greenhouse gases is not only exaggerated but unknown. The greenhouse effect is known, but modeling the whole Earth’s climate with many dozens of physical processes is not an easy thing and has not been done successfully.

  227. The Ukrainians.

    That does seem to make the most sense.

    Way to ignore the elephant in the room. By which I mean the NATO fleet led by the Kearsarge that spent the entire summer in the Baltic Sea, leaving only the day before the bombs went off:

    The Kearsarge Amphibious Ready Group (ARG) and the 22nd Marine Expeditionary Unit (MEU) have departed the Baltic Sea and are in the English Channel. The ARG includes USS Kearsarge (LHD-3), USS Arlington (LPD-24) and USS Gunston Hall (LSD-44). Kearsarge and Gunston Hall completed port calls in Gdynia and Gdansk, respectively, last week.

    https://news.usni.org/2022/09/26/usni-news-fleet-and-marine-tracker-sept-26-2022

    If Russia invades [Ukraine]…there will be no longer a Nordstream 2. We will bring end to it.

    The president who said that is not the high heels-wearing T-shirt clown who does coke, it’s the senile one whose kids do coke.

  228. @Corvinus
    @AnotherDad

    “We are the real Americans, with the real American spirit–not you ‘nation of immigrants, America nothing but a big marketplace for looting people.”

    You’re a straight up idiot, and anti white to boot. Tens of millions of American whites had ancestors who were immigrants. They currently champion your causes, and then you have the gall to lash out against them. It’s foul.

    Replies: @anon

    Corevagina, abbreviated:

  229. @Triteleia Laxa
    @Hypnotoad666

    Germany is the leading country in Europe. Its economy is many classes above Russia's. It also dominates the EU. A huge combined economy. It needs to have a military that would have scared Russia off from invading Ukraine. Ukraine borders the EU and is a potential member. It is as if the US couldn't deter someone from invading Mexico.

    Until Europe, particularly Germany, can achieve that basic function, US forces will continued to be required and invited into the continent. Nukes won't do it. Only a military and security apparatus that is equivalent.

    But that would require serious prioritisation and sacrifice, and it is so much easier to invite the Americans in, and resent them to save pride.

    And it has nothing to do with Hitler. West Germany had a much more serious military. It is just free-riding and spoilt entitlement.

    Replies: @Hypnotoad666

    Until Europe, particularly Germany, can achieve that basic function, US forces will continued to be required and invited into the continent. Nukes won’t do it. Only a military and security apparatus that is equivalent.

    Germany and the Europeans aren’t exactly “free riding” on the U.S. Rather, NATO is a quid pro quo in which they have agreed to sell control over their foreign policy to the U.S. in return for us defending them against Russia. It was a potentially reasonable deal until the U.S. deep state was captured by a cabal of insane (and insanely stupid) parasitic, Russophobic warmongers who act on their own agenda with zero consideration for the interests of our allies/vassals.

    Also, someone invented a new clause in the contract by which the Europeans also pledge their collective economy to the U.S. as a sanctions weapon. At this point NATO is the shittiest deal of all time for the Europeans because: (a) using their economies as a sanction weapon costs them more than funding their own defense would; and (b) they wouldn’t need a defense against Russia anyway if they were allowed to peacefully coexist instead of slavishly following the US warmonger cabal.

    So you are right that Germany should rearm. But it should do so in order to regain its independence, not to be a more effective vassal state for the US.

    • Replies: @Triteleia Laxa
    @Hypnotoad666


    Germany and the Europeans aren’t exactly “free riding” on the U.S. Rather, NATO is a quid pro quo in which they have agreed to sell control over their foreign policy to the U.S. in return for us defending them against Russia.
     
    Germany and France refused to enter the Iraq War. They only ever go along with US foreign policy when they agree. The basis of the relationship is shared values among the professional managing classes and elites. The Iraq War came from a place of inchoate US vengeance and was widely hated by those same elites and did not work within their values. It wouldn't have happened with Al Gore in charge, even if many Democrats were bullied by the Republicans to go along with it for fear of seeming unpatriotic after 9/11.

    I know you want these facts to be different, because it has your worst guys as the better guys, but this online RW American self-deception has caused all sorts of self-derangement. Even leading to the insane US online RW position of loudly cheerleading Putin invading Ukraine. Tragic.

    Replies: @Hypnotoad666

  230. @Corvinus
    @Hypnotoad666

    Again, the hilarious thing is you always default to blaming Jews or liberals or the Deep State for anything and everything. It’s like clockwork.

    “But this time, the only thing everyone agrees on is that the pipeline bombing was a conspiracy.“

    According to Who/Whom?

    Replies: @PhysicistDave, @Hypnotoad666

    Res ipsa loquitur: The Nordstream II pipeline did not kill itself.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @Hypnotoad666

    The Jews did it. No, it was the Americans. No, it was the Poles. No, it was the Ukrainians with outside help.

    All speculation rooted in conspiracy theory.

    And in your world, everyone who does something you personally disagree with is an enemy, a vassal of the U.S., or a supporter of Israel, or all three. It’s truly an amazing thing to see.

    Replies: @Hypnotoad666, @Curle

  231. @Mr. Anon
    @Jack D

    I didn't say they were going to freeze to death. I said they were going to be colder. And they will be. They're mandating lower thermostat settings, not only in public buildings but also in rental units. I'm sure some dilligent officials will set them lower in private residences too. And the nice thing about that, from a government's point of view, is that having established the precedent that they decide how warm or cold you will be, they will undoubtedly wish to continue to do so.

    Replies: @Jack D

    Public buildings will be heated only to 19C (66F). Oh, the horror! Think of the poor shivering children! The hardship will be unbearable!

    Central heating is rare in Japan. Most buildings (residential and public) are much colder than is expected in the West. They wear their overcoats inside public buildings. At home they have various ways of heating only the space you are in such as the kotatsu which is a table with a blanket overhang and a small (nowadays electric) heater underneath – you put your legs under the quilt and they get warm. Or little kerosene space heaters such as found used to be found in American ghettos when the power company would shut you off for non-payment in winter (now there are laws against winter shutoffs). But in Japan almost everyone has these heaters. Otherwise, it is friggin’ cold indoors and they just accept it as normal.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    @Jack D


    Public buildings will be heated only to 19C (66F).
     
    To start with. Who know what they will end up mandating. You claim their gas storage is topped up? How long does that last? How much will it cost to refill. Losing about half your gas supply (which is what it would be if they completely cut off russian gas, as they say they want to) is going to have some consequences.

    Central heating is rare in Japan. Most buildings (residential and public) are much colder than is expected in the West.
     
    Yeah, I'm aware. You're not the only one who's been abroad, Jack. Anyway, we're talking about Germans, not Japanese, whom you previously said were soft and unaccustomed to hardship, but now you're claiming they're just going to buck up and take it. Which is it?

    I don't know what they're going to do. All I know is that what is being imposed on them and on a lot of other Europeans is going to look like a program of austerity.
  232. @Hunsdon
    @Jack D

    Wait, Jack----so this comment by you from earlier upthread is no longer valid?

    JackD: But with the pipeline intact, he could turn them back on just as quickly as he turned them off. This was saying to the Germans (and to himself and to the oligarchs) that no deal is possible anymore. The divorce is permanent.

    Are you consciously arguing in the alternative, or are you just changing your response when asked a different question? (Not necessarily accusing you of bad faith, here----it's a common trait.)

    Replies: @Jack D

    I’ve put out several alternative possible explanations/speculations. I don’t think anyone has enough information at this point to say which one is right – I sure don’t.

    In fact the people CLAIMING to have information (this must be the US because the US was there this summer, because Biden said that #2 would not be put in service, etc. ) are generally full of shit – their “proof” is not really proof of anything. They come to their conclusion 1st and then look for “proof” of what they already have concluded (the “neocons” must have dun it).

  233. @Hypnotoad666
    @Corvinus

    Res ipsa loquitur: The Nordstream II pipeline did not kill itself.

    Replies: @Corvinus

    The Jews did it. No, it was the Americans. No, it was the Poles. No, it was the Ukrainians with outside help.

    All speculation rooted in conspiracy theory.

    And in your world, everyone who does something you personally disagree with is an enemy, a vassal of the U.S., or a supporter of Israel, or all three. It’s truly an amazing thing to see.

    • Replies: @Hypnotoad666
    @Corvinus

    What say you? Was it just a "thing that happened," so you aren't going to think about it at all? Is that how you protect yourself from having a badthink "conspiracy theory" in your mind?

    Replies: @Corvinus

    , @Curle
    @Corvinus

    “ . . . rooted in conspiracy theory.”

    You haven’t the foggiest idea what it’s rooted in.

  234. Anonymous[134] • Disclaimer says:
    @AnotherDad
    @Pericles


    So what were the supposed Ukrainian logistics in order to accomplish this? In fully deniable secrecy, of course. Please describe the details. Night train to Warsaw, drag the equipment and munitions to Gdansk train, rent fishing boat in Gdansk, …
     
    Pericles, while I agree it is much easier for the Poles--they're right there--you're implying this is some sort of difficult operation to pull off.

    I'm not a demolitions guy, but as just an "intelligent reader", this sort of thing looks like it takes some decently trained guys, some explosives and a couple of these remote submersible drones. Outside the explosives gear the modern treasure hunter uses. Hardly some super complex operation.

    ~~

    The notable thing about modernity is just how vulnerable a lot of the key infrastructure is--pipelines, undersea cables, transmission towers ...

    For a nation to be seriously energy dependent on a pipeline that pretty much anyone can disable in a cheapo operation that even a small rogue group--not to mention any hostile nation--could throw together is ridiculous.

    All this stuff is orders of magnitude less important than the immivasion crisis. But nations ought to be putting aside mere "marketplace" concerns and building systems/infrastructure defense/energy/industrial/communcations/transportation/medical ... that is much more robust and doesn't have "single points of failure".

    Replies: @Pericles, @Anonymous

    We’ve become collectively more stupid about these things since the end of the Cold War.

    The people who led the West through the Cold War were big capitalists who liked international trade very much. But they also understood that the trade system was fragile and easily disrupted, whether by human malevolence or natural disaster.

    Hence they took care to follow policies like not outsourcing production of emergency equipment to foreign countries, maintaining strategic stockpiles of important commodities, not becoming over reliant economically on a single energy source, and so on.

    All these lessons were forgotten in the 1990s and are now having to be re-learned the hard way.

  235. @Corvinus
    @Hypnotoad666

    The Jews did it. No, it was the Americans. No, it was the Poles. No, it was the Ukrainians with outside help.

    All speculation rooted in conspiracy theory.

    And in your world, everyone who does something you personally disagree with is an enemy, a vassal of the U.S., or a supporter of Israel, or all three. It’s truly an amazing thing to see.

    Replies: @Hypnotoad666, @Curle

    What say you? Was it just a “thing that happened,” so you aren’t going to think about it at all? Is that how you protect yourself from having a badthink “conspiracy theory” in your mind?

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @Hypnotoad666

    Who’s to say it wasn’t Russian intelligence pissed off at Putin and are hoping to facilitate regime change by committing sabotage?

    Who’s to say it wasn’t Ukraine special ops seeking to cripple Russia, and yes even realizing there will be significant economic shocks in Europe as a result.

    Who’s to say there wasn’t American complicity?

    Did Poland really have the military chops to pull of this operation?

    It all makes for wonderful speculation, with your confirmation bias default button being the Deep State and Jews at fault for EVERYTHING. All as you blather on as “your” country is getting it good and hard. It’s really time to put up or shut up.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Hypnotoad666, @PhysicistDave

  236. @bispora
    It's a big problem if Greg is also lying... The Ukrainians wouldn't light a match without US approval. There may have been Ukrainians on the dive team, but that the operation was conceived and executed by the CIA and the Pentagon is beyond doubt to anyone with a brain. It's a disgrace what you Americans are doing to us Europeans...

    Replies: @Citizen of a Silly Country, @HammerJack, @Alfa158, @JimDandy, @AnotherDad, @James J. O'Meara

    that the operation was conceived and executed by the CIA and the Pentagon is beyond doubt to anyone with a brain.

    Steve and Cochran’s obsessions with being smarter and edgy and clickbaity on one thing (noticing bleks) has mutated into trying to be smarter etc. about everything, even at the price of being childishly stubborn on defending Boomerism: Covid hysteria, viruses cause homosexuality, Trump is our guy not a Zionist stooge, there is no Deep State, IQ explains everything, Ukraine as plucky little democracy, etc.

    It’s like J. Revulsky’s idea of “high IQ idiocy” regarding “conspiracy theories.” No matter how many times Lucy pulls the ball away, Steve thinks he’s “too smart” to “fall for” some “conspiracy”.

    It’s starting to limit his effectiveness as a White advocate; Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus

    • Replies: @Curle
    @James J. O'Meara

    “defending Boomerism”

    Why would he defend something that doesn’t exist?

  237. @Hypnotoad666
    @Corvinus

    What say you? Was it just a "thing that happened," so you aren't going to think about it at all? Is that how you protect yourself from having a badthink "conspiracy theory" in your mind?

    Replies: @Corvinus

    Who’s to say it wasn’t Russian intelligence pissed off at Putin and are hoping to facilitate regime change by committing sabotage?

    Who’s to say it wasn’t Ukraine special ops seeking to cripple Russia, and yes even realizing there will be significant economic shocks in Europe as a result.

    Who’s to say there wasn’t American complicity?

    Did Poland really have the military chops to pull of this operation?

    It all makes for wonderful speculation, with your confirmation bias default button being the Deep State and Jews at fault for EVERYTHING. All as you blather on as “your” country is getting it good and hard. It’s really time to put up or shut up.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    @Corvinus


    It’s really time to put up or shut up.
     
    You do neither, you bloviating piece of crap.
    , @Hypnotoad666
    @Corvinus

    Why do you keep talking about Jews?

    And I did "put up," by explaining that the only party with the ability and incentive to do this is the U.S., and that the other suspects (UK/Ukraine/Poland) are US vassals that can't do something like this without our express approval and involvement. Blaming Germany or Russia is just stupid.

    Biden and Nuland already said they would eliminate the pipeline before letting it carry gas from Russia. The U.S. Navy was operating in the area three weeks ago and had every opportunity to lay the explosives then. And in case there was still any doubt, the U.S. Government hasn't even denied doing it! Logic and circumstantial evidence, especially combined with an implied admission, is not speculation.

    In any event, the idiot corporate press will just bury the story and/or illogically blame Russia. But that won't change the fact that everyone who isn't an MSM rube knows who did it.

    Replies: @Corvinus

    , @PhysicistDave
    @Corvinus

    Corvinus wrote to Hypnotoad666:


    It all makes for wonderful speculation, with your confirmation bias default button being the Deep State and Jews at fault for EVERYTHING.
     
    Why do you keep trying to blame the Jews, Corvy?

    This was probably the US Deep State or the Ukrainians, maybe the Poles.

    Hypnotoad666 did not blame the Jews, and it is hard to see why Jews would be involved in this.

    So why are you so obsessed with claiming the Jews did it, little buddy?

    What do you have against Jews?

    Replies: @Corvinus

  238. “It’s really time to put up or shut up.”

    You’ve never done the latter and I doubt you’ve done the former.

  239. @James J. O'Meara
    @bispora


    that the operation was conceived and executed by the CIA and the Pentagon is beyond doubt to anyone with a brain.
     
    Steve and Cochran's obsessions with being smarter and edgy and clickbaity on one thing (noticing bleks) has mutated into trying to be smarter etc. about everything, even at the price of being childishly stubborn on defending Boomerism: Covid hysteria, viruses cause homosexuality, Trump is our guy not a Zionist stooge, there is no Deep State, IQ explains everything, Ukraine as plucky little democracy, etc.

    It's like J. Revulsky's idea of "high IQ idiocy" regarding "conspiracy theories." No matter how many times Lucy pulls the ball away, Steve thinks he's "too smart" to "fall for" some "conspiracy".

    It's starting to limit his effectiveness as a White advocate; Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus

    Replies: @Curle

    “defending Boomerism”

    Why would he defend something that doesn’t exist?

  240. @Corvinus
    @Hypnotoad666

    The Jews did it. No, it was the Americans. No, it was the Poles. No, it was the Ukrainians with outside help.

    All speculation rooted in conspiracy theory.

    And in your world, everyone who does something you personally disagree with is an enemy, a vassal of the U.S., or a supporter of Israel, or all three. It’s truly an amazing thing to see.

    Replies: @Hypnotoad666, @Curle

    “ . . . rooted in conspiracy theory.”

    You haven’t the foggiest idea what it’s rooted in.

  241. @Jack D
    @Mr. Anon

    Public buildings will be heated only to 19C (66F). Oh, the horror! Think of the poor shivering children! The hardship will be unbearable!

    Central heating is rare in Japan. Most buildings (residential and public) are much colder than is expected in the West. They wear their overcoats inside public buildings. At home they have various ways of heating only the space you are in such as the kotatsu which is a table with a blanket overhang and a small (nowadays electric) heater underneath - you put your legs under the quilt and they get warm. Or little kerosene space heaters such as found used to be found in American ghettos when the power company would shut you off for non-payment in winter (now there are laws against winter shutoffs). But in Japan almost everyone has these heaters. Otherwise, it is friggin' cold indoors and they just accept it as normal.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon

    Public buildings will be heated only to 19C (66F).

    To start with. Who know what they will end up mandating. You claim their gas storage is topped up? How long does that last? How much will it cost to refill. Losing about half your gas supply (which is what it would be if they completely cut off russian gas, as they say they want to) is going to have some consequences.

    Central heating is rare in Japan. Most buildings (residential and public) are much colder than is expected in the West.

    Yeah, I’m aware. You’re not the only one who’s been abroad, Jack. Anyway, we’re talking about Germans, not Japanese, whom you previously said were soft and unaccustomed to hardship, but now you’re claiming they’re just going to buck up and take it. Which is it?

    I don’t know what they’re going to do. All I know is that what is being imposed on them and on a lot of other Europeans is going to look like a program of austerity.

  242. @Corvinus
    @Hypnotoad666

    Who’s to say it wasn’t Russian intelligence pissed off at Putin and are hoping to facilitate regime change by committing sabotage?

    Who’s to say it wasn’t Ukraine special ops seeking to cripple Russia, and yes even realizing there will be significant economic shocks in Europe as a result.

    Who’s to say there wasn’t American complicity?

    Did Poland really have the military chops to pull of this operation?

    It all makes for wonderful speculation, with your confirmation bias default button being the Deep State and Jews at fault for EVERYTHING. All as you blather on as “your” country is getting it good and hard. It’s really time to put up or shut up.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Hypnotoad666, @PhysicistDave

    It’s really time to put up or shut up.

    You do neither, you bloviating piece of crap.

  243. @Corvinus
    @Hypnotoad666

    Who’s to say it wasn’t Russian intelligence pissed off at Putin and are hoping to facilitate regime change by committing sabotage?

    Who’s to say it wasn’t Ukraine special ops seeking to cripple Russia, and yes even realizing there will be significant economic shocks in Europe as a result.

    Who’s to say there wasn’t American complicity?

    Did Poland really have the military chops to pull of this operation?

    It all makes for wonderful speculation, with your confirmation bias default button being the Deep State and Jews at fault for EVERYTHING. All as you blather on as “your” country is getting it good and hard. It’s really time to put up or shut up.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Hypnotoad666, @PhysicistDave

    Why do you keep talking about Jews?

    And I did “put up,” by explaining that the only party with the ability and incentive to do this is the U.S., and that the other suspects (UK/Ukraine/Poland) are US vassals that can’t do something like this without our express approval and involvement. Blaming Germany or Russia is just stupid.

    Biden and Nuland already said they would eliminate the pipeline before letting it carry gas from Russia. The U.S. Navy was operating in the area three weeks ago and had every opportunity to lay the explosives then. And in case there was still any doubt, the U.S. Government hasn’t even denied doing it! Logic and circumstantial evidence, especially combined with an implied admission, is not speculation.

    In any event, the idiot corporate press will just bury the story and/or illogically blame Russia. But that won’t change the fact that everyone who isn’t an MSM rube knows who did it.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @Hypnotoad666

    “Why do you keep talking about Jews?“

    That’s rich coming from you, a man who incessantly laments about their power and control in the world.

    “And I did “put up,””

    All you do is yap about the Orcs. It’s time to defend your homeland by force of arms.

    “by explaining that the only party with the ability and incentive to do this is the U.S.”

    Actually, there’s several parties who have that capability. That’s why there’s plenty of popcorn to go around.

    “But that won’t change the fact that everyone who isn’t an MSM rube knows who did it.”

    You really enjoy the strawmen and No True Scotsman fallacy. It’s quite the scene.

    Replies: @Hypnotoad666

  244. @Hypnotoad666
    @halfhearted

    Ukrainians did it in the same way that it was Cuban exiles, by themselves, who invaded the Bay of Pigs. It's not impossible, however, that it was merely one faction of the Deep State that managed or organized the operation. In addition to being evil, they are usually incompetent and have the worst judgment possible.

    Replies: @Sam Malone

    Good analogy – as if the Cuban participants of the US Bay of Pigs operation had anything like the independent agency and wherewithal and ability to pull of something of that scope. Saying “the Ukrainians did this” is incredible level one obtuseness even if it was them. As if the Ukrainians could have done something like that without us knowing, even assuming they were arrogant enough to think it was a good idea to pull something like that off without telling us.

    The way things work on planet earth in this timeline is that the US would have had ships or listening stations or satellites or watching over every step of the operation, probably put them up to it or at minimum were counseled on the action well in advance and tacitly gave a thumbs up, probably indirectly funded it via the transfer of our national wealth to Ukraine over the last six months, probably had our people give theirs technical advice (hell, maybe even deep-sea rehearsal experience), probably supplied some of the equipment, would have escorted their ships to and from the pipeline, etc, etc, etc, etc.

  245. @Altai
    The key thing about NordStream 2 is it's unnecessary from a practical standpoint, it was necessary from a geopolitical stand point, it meant Germany no longer had to deal with the potential for Poland or Ukraine to block or threaten to block the flow of gas.

    Therefore both countries lose transit fees but more importantly they lose political control and leverage.

    Ukraine could not have done this. They do not have the expertise or access to the Baltic sea to sabotage a pipeline 70m under water. Meanwhile we see the breakpoints are all close to the Prussian shore. It was the Poles. The only question is, did the US know or sanction it and if they sanctioned it, help them. Maybe somebody could say Ukraine ordered it or suggested it but the practical action of doing it would have to fall to Poland and they'd have to agree.

    The Poles in particular have been inveighing about NS2 it from the start.

    https://kafkadesk.org/2021/05/21/poland-angered-by-us-president-bidens-nord-stream-ii-decision

    Poland has reacted angrily to President Joe Biden’s decision to waive US sanctions on Nord Stream II, warning the move could threaten energy security across Central and Eastern Europe.

    “The information is definitely not positive from the security point of view, as we know perfectly that Nord Stream II is not only a business project – it is mostly a geopolitical project,” said Piotr Muller, a spokesman for the Polish government.
     

    Now Sikorski posted the clip of Biden suggesting that the US would stop NS2 no matter what Germany had to say about it, ie by force. More damning from a US perspective is this clip of Victoria Nuland, the psychopathic pointwoman neocon on provoking Russia saying it more explicitly.

    https://twitter.com/azmilitary1/status/1574767709258137606

    But Germany has iced NS2, so blatant violent action was unnecessary and escalatory in a way the neocons don't seem to want. (If this was the US it'd be a very serious act of aggression towards Germany and also Denmark who have an environmental catastrophe off Bornholm) They're happy with this being a proxy war and do not want to confront the Russians military directly which things like this increase and without a plausible payoff in terms lengthening the war, Germany was already as hostile and non-cooperative with Russia as it could be and there was no serious talk of getting NS2 up and running.

    Remember, the neocons agenda is to bleed Russia and have it commit military resources there for as long as possible to stop them intervening in Syria or anywhere in the Middle East. And they're getting that with (Free to them) Ukrainian lives and territory, no need to raise the temperature and risk a nuclear war with Russia.

    Sikorski is not currently in the Polish cabinet so we can assume he doesn't really know what happened.

    For example, Tony Blinken made this cryptic statement about what happened which is differently to the usual comment you'd expect for a US denial of US actions. He said if it was sabotage, that it'd be "in no ones interest". IE, the Poles did this on their own and we don't condone it.

    https://twitter.com/kylieatwood/status/1574791417049882626

    This would not be the first time the Poles and the Baltic countries have taken actions to increase the tension and bring things closer to a direct NATO war with Russia. The first big isntance was the promises to give NATO Soviet era aircraft directly to Ukraine which also had the otherwise anti-Russia neocon Blinken running around desperately trying to not have things boil over. Then we had Lithuania causing the crisis by threatening to blockade land supplies to Kaliningrad which had EU leaders desperately try to defuse.

    It could also be, as Steve noted, that Sikorski is trying to heighten tensions by deliberately falsely implicating the US as main party or collaborator.

    That it was a Poles seems even more likely given an anti-Russian narrative has been implied (NYT style with the headline) but not spoken outright and indeed there seems to be some nervousness in the West about it. This is, like all the other rogue escalation attempts by Poland and the Baltics, treated as a serious and not welcome development without the same propaganda coverage.

    Although one other suspect or accomplice raises it's head merely because the UK intel mouthpiece (A role similar to that of the WaPo in the US) The Telegraph did try to blame it on the Russians early on.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/09/27/russian-sabotage-feared-unprecedented-damage-nord-stream-gas

    Though this may have been a result of early reporting which didn't make clear the nature of the 'faults'.

    So we have motive, ability and a modus operandi (Crazy rogue escalatory actions) for Poland and not for anybody else. These kinds of crazy rogue actions are why I keep saying if this does go to a NATO war Poland will be the one who did it.

    With the destruction of NS2 Germany is now hostage to Poland in terms of keeping this state of unpeace with Russia. It can now only be supplied with the industry saving gas from the pipelines through Ukraine and Poland.

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon, @Coemgen, @Pericles, @YetAnotherAnon, @Achmed E. Newman, @BB753, @AnotherDad, @Sam Malone

    Interesting analysis, strong enough to now make me wonder if it was the Poles doing a “rogue escalatory action” (I like that phrase, as well as the “state of unpeace with Russia” we’re now in). Though I wouldn’t have thought the Poles could do it without us noticing it in time to order them to stop (as I said in my above comment about Ukraine no way being able to do it alone and unauthorized.) Is it possible we see it going down and did tell the Poles to stop, and they just ignored us or “didn’t hear in time”?

    Maybe more will come to light in the next few days or weeks that gives us a better idea of the most likely actor. It would be good to know who the maniac is out there I guess, not that any of us can do anything about it.

    Thanks for your many lengthy and impressive contributions to this site.

  246. @Corvinus
    @Hypnotoad666

    Who’s to say it wasn’t Russian intelligence pissed off at Putin and are hoping to facilitate regime change by committing sabotage?

    Who’s to say it wasn’t Ukraine special ops seeking to cripple Russia, and yes even realizing there will be significant economic shocks in Europe as a result.

    Who’s to say there wasn’t American complicity?

    Did Poland really have the military chops to pull of this operation?

    It all makes for wonderful speculation, with your confirmation bias default button being the Deep State and Jews at fault for EVERYTHING. All as you blather on as “your” country is getting it good and hard. It’s really time to put up or shut up.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Hypnotoad666, @PhysicistDave

    Corvinus wrote to Hypnotoad666:

    It all makes for wonderful speculation, with your confirmation bias default button being the Deep State and Jews at fault for EVERYTHING.

    Why do you keep trying to blame the Jews, Corvy?

    This was probably the US Deep State or the Ukrainians, maybe the Poles.

    Hypnotoad666 did not blame the Jews, and it is hard to see why Jews would be involved in this.

    So why are you so obsessed with claiming the Jews did it, little buddy?

    What do you have against Jews?

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @PhysicistDave

    Lol, the Jews are the scourge of the earth, right? Just ask Hypnotoad. Just ask yourself. This group has infiltrated our key institutions. They are the primary controllers of the Deep State. Your sentiments, not mine. So you’re not fooling anyone here within your virtue signaling.

  247. And somehow the one country who said they would do it, didn’t.

    The Bullshit never ends.

  248. Triteleia Laxa [AKA "Monitor of Halls"] says:
    @Hypnotoad666
    @Triteleia Laxa


    Until Europe, particularly Germany, can achieve that basic function, US forces will continued to be required and invited into the continent. Nukes won’t do it. Only a military and security apparatus that is equivalent.
     
    Germany and the Europeans aren't exactly "free riding" on the U.S. Rather, NATO is a quid pro quo in which they have agreed to sell control over their foreign policy to the U.S. in return for us defending them against Russia. It was a potentially reasonable deal until the U.S. deep state was captured by a cabal of insane (and insanely stupid) parasitic, Russophobic warmongers who act on their own agenda with zero consideration for the interests of our allies/vassals.

    Also, someone invented a new clause in the contract by which the Europeans also pledge their collective economy to the U.S. as a sanctions weapon. At this point NATO is the shittiest deal of all time for the Europeans because: (a) using their economies as a sanction weapon costs them more than funding their own defense would; and (b) they wouldn't need a defense against Russia anyway if they were allowed to peacefully coexist instead of slavishly following the US warmonger cabal.

    So you are right that Germany should rearm. But it should do so in order to regain its independence, not to be a more effective vassal state for the US.

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa

    Germany and the Europeans aren’t exactly “free riding” on the U.S. Rather, NATO is a quid pro quo in which they have agreed to sell control over their foreign policy to the U.S. in return for us defending them against Russia.

    Germany and France refused to enter the Iraq War. They only ever go along with US foreign policy when they agree. The basis of the relationship is shared values among the professional managing classes and elites. The Iraq War came from a place of inchoate US vengeance and was widely hated by those same elites and did not work within their values. It wouldn’t have happened with Al Gore in charge, even if many Democrats were bullied by the Republicans to go along with it for fear of seeming unpatriotic after 9/11.

    I know you want these facts to be different, because it has your worst guys as the better guys, but this online RW American self-deception has caused all sorts of self-derangement. Even leading to the insane US online RW position of loudly cheerleading Putin invading Ukraine. Tragic.

    • Replies: @Hypnotoad666
    @Triteleia Laxa


    They only ever go along with US foreign policy when they agree.
     
    LOL. And if "they" don't "agree," their key energy infrastructure starts blowing up. That's a real consensual relationship. It's like saying your battered wife has "agreed" not to give you any backtalk.

    Your motto seems to be: "My Deep State, Right or Wrong." Everyone who disagrees is a "Putin Puppet," right? That's what the NYT and the rest of the official media tells you daily, so it must be true. At least I admire your loyalty, facts be damned.

    But, as you note, this is just elites acting without any legitimate or authentic popular support. If things keep going as bad as they are, the propaganda won't be enough. The Eurotrash governments that supported this fiasco, as well as Biden, will get thrown out of office. (Assuming that the "shared values among the professional managing classes and elites," will allow fair elections.) It's just a shame they couldn't do the right thing and skip the war to begin with.

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa

  249. @CMC
    @Steven80

    The problem with the logic about the Ukraine is with term ‘the Ukraine.’ What if there is no Ukraine? No there there? No real country, not sovereign, not independent? More of a criminal oligarch cabal show country cat’s paw? Did Maiden happen or not? Did the US’s Euro-Viceroy go there with cookies or cupcakes or not?

    Valid logic requires proper apprehension of the nature of things. If we’re misapprehending exactly what ‘the Ukraine’ currently is or who ‘the Ukies’ currently are, then what follows is flawed and would lead to invalid conclusions or conclusions that are only valid by accident.

    Now, even agreeing with what I’m implying here, yes, there could be some rogue group or elements or faction of ‘Ukies’ who might be ready, willing and able to blow some pipelines in the Baltic.

    But to do so and get away with it? To think they could do it and get away with it? To think they could do it and only get caught by the US but figure that would be ok or worth it?

    IMO these types of questions lower the probability that it was ‘the ukies.’ I doubt it was any euro country or rogue element either.

    No, it seems to me most roads lead back to the US. Either in the inception or covering for some rogue element after the fact —like some group did it and now it’s a fait accompli that the US either has to cut them loose and make it (semi-) public, or ‘give them a pass’ and thereby end up accepting ultimate responsibility.

    Replies: @Bill Jones

    The Ukraine was always correct. It means The Border, The Edge, The Rim etc. it was the borderlands over which various tribes washed and warred for hundreds of years, No more a separate land than The South or The North .

  250. @Triteleia Laxa
    @Hypnotoad666


    Germany and the Europeans aren’t exactly “free riding” on the U.S. Rather, NATO is a quid pro quo in which they have agreed to sell control over their foreign policy to the U.S. in return for us defending them against Russia.
     
    Germany and France refused to enter the Iraq War. They only ever go along with US foreign policy when they agree. The basis of the relationship is shared values among the professional managing classes and elites. The Iraq War came from a place of inchoate US vengeance and was widely hated by those same elites and did not work within their values. It wouldn't have happened with Al Gore in charge, even if many Democrats were bullied by the Republicans to go along with it for fear of seeming unpatriotic after 9/11.

    I know you want these facts to be different, because it has your worst guys as the better guys, but this online RW American self-deception has caused all sorts of self-derangement. Even leading to the insane US online RW position of loudly cheerleading Putin invading Ukraine. Tragic.

    Replies: @Hypnotoad666

    They only ever go along with US foreign policy when they agree.

    LOL. And if “they” don’t “agree,” their key energy infrastructure starts blowing up. That’s a real consensual relationship. It’s like saying your battered wife has “agreed” not to give you any backtalk.

    Your motto seems to be: “My Deep State, Right or Wrong.” Everyone who disagrees is a “Putin Puppet,” right? That’s what the NYT and the rest of the official media tells you daily, so it must be true. At least I admire your loyalty, facts be damned.

    But, as you note, this is just elites acting without any legitimate or authentic popular support. If things keep going as bad as they are, the propaganda won’t be enough. The Eurotrash governments that supported this fiasco, as well as Biden, will get thrown out of office. (Assuming that the “shared values among the professional managing classes and elites,” will allow fair elections.) It’s just a shame they couldn’t do the right thing and skip the war to begin with.

    • Replies: @Triteleia Laxa
    @Hypnotoad666


    LOL. And if “they” don’t “agree,” their key energy infrastructure starts blowing up.
     
    I doubt it was the Americans, nor have the Europeans not "agreed" to anything as regards Ukraine.

    Instead, France & Germany refused the Iraq war and had nothing happen to them, except getting lionised in the US media a few years later for their rejection of it, and being apologised to by rich coastal Americans whenever they met on holidays and conferences.

    The Iraq war was pushed by "Red State Americans", some of whom, now, want to pretend that it was actually "the Jews", or "the globalists" or whomever. This is ridiculous. It was largely the Jewish/Brahmin/WASP/coastal/globalist/Ivy League/privileged/media/Democrat/progressive types who opposed it. Remember Howard Dean? Hollywood churned out anti-war films. Being anti-war was the standard liberal progressive cause.

    And they all got called traitors and losers and wannabe Europeans for their trouble. It took Trump in South Carolina in 2016(!) to change this dynamic.

    Your motto seems to be: “My Deep State, Right or Wrong.” Everyone who disagrees is a “Putin Puppet,” right? That’s what the NYT and the rest of the official media tells you daily, so it must be true. At least I admire your loyalty, facts be damned.
     
    Who are you talking to?

    But, as you note, this is just elites acting without any legitimate or authentic popular support.
     
    I did not note that. The Ukrainian cause is extremely popular among Western publics. Even the online European RW majoritarily support Ukraine. Only you "dissident right" losers back Putin. You and a bunch of equally bitter and forgotten Stalinist types.

    If things keep going as bad as they are, the propaganda won’t be enough. The Eurotrash governments that supported this fiasco, as well as Biden, will get thrown out of office.
     
    You're confusing what you want with what will happen. Meloni in Italy is a huge supporter of Ukraine, and she just came into power.

    If you wanted someone who would bend over for Putin, you would have needed someone like Corbyn. But, now he's gone, Labour is guaranteed to win the next election, despite receiving a historic crushing at the last. Just the association with Putin's bungled invasion may well have been what finished Marine Le Pen against Macron earlier this year.

    Do you know how ridiculous the American online-Stalinist "dissident right" front of idiots for Putin is? Unplug yourself. You're all spiritually brown. By that I mean you talk of Putin like "he is a good boy and dindu nuffin", and constantly seek to avoid seeing agency in those you relate to, like him.

    If "whiteness" is taking accountability and responsibility, you guys are like a long lost tribe of the lowest caste Congolese. But mostly you sound like someone like Julius Malema. A man who is a pariah from polite society for being racist against whites in black-run South Africa.
  251. Triteleia Laxa [AKA "Monitor of Halls"] says:
    @Hypnotoad666
    @Triteleia Laxa


    They only ever go along with US foreign policy when they agree.
     
    LOL. And if "they" don't "agree," their key energy infrastructure starts blowing up. That's a real consensual relationship. It's like saying your battered wife has "agreed" not to give you any backtalk.

    Your motto seems to be: "My Deep State, Right or Wrong." Everyone who disagrees is a "Putin Puppet," right? That's what the NYT and the rest of the official media tells you daily, so it must be true. At least I admire your loyalty, facts be damned.

    But, as you note, this is just elites acting without any legitimate or authentic popular support. If things keep going as bad as they are, the propaganda won't be enough. The Eurotrash governments that supported this fiasco, as well as Biden, will get thrown out of office. (Assuming that the "shared values among the professional managing classes and elites," will allow fair elections.) It's just a shame they couldn't do the right thing and skip the war to begin with.

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa

    LOL. And if “they” don’t “agree,” their key energy infrastructure starts blowing up.

    I doubt it was the Americans, nor have the Europeans not “agreed” to anything as regards Ukraine.

    Instead, France & Germany refused the Iraq war and had nothing happen to them, except getting lionised in the US media a few years later for their rejection of it, and being apologised to by rich coastal Americans whenever they met on holidays and conferences.

    The Iraq war was pushed by “Red State Americans”, some of whom, now, want to pretend that it was actually “the Jews”, or “the globalists” or whomever. This is ridiculous. It was largely the Jewish/Brahmin/WASP/coastal/globalist/Ivy League/privileged/media/Democrat/progressive types who opposed it. Remember Howard Dean? Hollywood churned out anti-war films. Being anti-war was the standard liberal progressive cause.

    And they all got called traitors and losers and wannabe Europeans for their trouble. It took Trump in South Carolina in 2016(!) to change this dynamic.

    Your motto seems to be: “My Deep State, Right or Wrong.” Everyone who disagrees is a “Putin Puppet,” right? That’s what the NYT and the rest of the official media tells you daily, so it must be true. At least I admire your loyalty, facts be damned.

    Who are you talking to?

    But, as you note, this is just elites acting without any legitimate or authentic popular support.

    I did not note that. The Ukrainian cause is extremely popular among Western publics. Even the online European RW majoritarily support Ukraine. Only you “dissident right” losers back Putin. You and a bunch of equally bitter and forgotten Stalinist types.

    If things keep going as bad as they are, the propaganda won’t be enough. The Eurotrash governments that supported this fiasco, as well as Biden, will get thrown out of office.

    You’re confusing what you want with what will happen. Meloni in Italy is a huge supporter of Ukraine, and she just came into power.

    If you wanted someone who would bend over for Putin, you would have needed someone like Corbyn. But, now he’s gone, Labour is guaranteed to win the next election, despite receiving a historic crushing at the last. Just the association with Putin’s bungled invasion may well have been what finished Marine Le Pen against Macron earlier this year.

    Do you know how ridiculous the American online-Stalinist “dissident right” front of idiots for Putin is? Unplug yourself. You’re all spiritually brown. By that I mean you talk of Putin like “he is a good boy and dindu nuffin”, and constantly seek to avoid seeing agency in those you relate to, like him.

    If “whiteness” is taking accountability and responsibility, you guys are like a long lost tribe of the lowest caste Congolese. But mostly you sound like someone like Julius Malema. A man who is a pariah from polite society for being racist against whites in black-run South Africa.

  252. @Hypnotoad666
    @Corvinus

    Why do you keep talking about Jews?

    And I did "put up," by explaining that the only party with the ability and incentive to do this is the U.S., and that the other suspects (UK/Ukraine/Poland) are US vassals that can't do something like this without our express approval and involvement. Blaming Germany or Russia is just stupid.

    Biden and Nuland already said they would eliminate the pipeline before letting it carry gas from Russia. The U.S. Navy was operating in the area three weeks ago and had every opportunity to lay the explosives then. And in case there was still any doubt, the U.S. Government hasn't even denied doing it! Logic and circumstantial evidence, especially combined with an implied admission, is not speculation.

    In any event, the idiot corporate press will just bury the story and/or illogically blame Russia. But that won't change the fact that everyone who isn't an MSM rube knows who did it.

    Replies: @Corvinus

    “Why do you keep talking about Jews?“

    That’s rich coming from you, a man who incessantly laments about their power and control in the world.

    “And I did “put up,””

    All you do is yap about the Orcs. It’s time to defend your homeland by force of arms.

    “by explaining that the only party with the ability and incentive to do this is the U.S.”

    Actually, there’s several parties who have that capability. That’s why there’s plenty of popcorn to go around.

    “But that won’t change the fact that everyone who isn’t an MSM rube knows who did it.”

    You really enjoy the strawmen and No True Scotsman fallacy. It’s quite the scene.

    • Replies: @Hypnotoad666
    @Corvinus



    “Why do you keep talking about Jews?“

     

    That’s rich coming from you, a man who incessantly laments about their power and control in the world.
     
    You've got me confused with one of the other people you spend time trolling.

    Replies: @Corvinus

  253. @PhysicistDave
    @Corvinus

    Corvinus wrote to Hypnotoad666:


    It all makes for wonderful speculation, with your confirmation bias default button being the Deep State and Jews at fault for EVERYTHING.
     
    Why do you keep trying to blame the Jews, Corvy?

    This was probably the US Deep State or the Ukrainians, maybe the Poles.

    Hypnotoad666 did not blame the Jews, and it is hard to see why Jews would be involved in this.

    So why are you so obsessed with claiming the Jews did it, little buddy?

    What do you have against Jews?

    Replies: @Corvinus

    Lol, the Jews are the scourge of the earth, right? Just ask Hypnotoad. Just ask yourself. This group has infiltrated our key institutions. They are the primary controllers of the Deep State. Your sentiments, not mine. So you’re not fooling anyone here within your virtue signaling.

  254. @Corvinus
    @Hypnotoad666

    “Why do you keep talking about Jews?“

    That’s rich coming from you, a man who incessantly laments about their power and control in the world.

    “And I did “put up,””

    All you do is yap about the Orcs. It’s time to defend your homeland by force of arms.

    “by explaining that the only party with the ability and incentive to do this is the U.S.”

    Actually, there’s several parties who have that capability. That’s why there’s plenty of popcorn to go around.

    “But that won’t change the fact that everyone who isn’t an MSM rube knows who did it.”

    You really enjoy the strawmen and No True Scotsman fallacy. It’s quite the scene.

    Replies: @Hypnotoad666

    “Why do you keep talking about Jews?“

    That’s rich coming from you, a man who incessantly laments about their power and control in the world.

    You’ve got me confused with one of the other people you spend time trolling.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @Hypnotoad666

    Nope. I got you pegged. You certainly not denying that Jews are (wrongly) behind everything “evil” in this world. They are part of the globohomo cabal, right?

  255. @Hypnotoad666
    @Corvinus



    “Why do you keep talking about Jews?“

     

    That’s rich coming from you, a man who incessantly laments about their power and control in the world.
     
    You've got me confused with one of the other people you spend time trolling.

    Replies: @Corvinus

    Nope. I got you pegged. You certainly not denying that Jews are (wrongly) behind everything “evil” in this world. They are part of the globohomo cabal, right?

Comments are closed.

Subscribe to All Steve Sailer Comments via RSS