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From the Daily Beast:

Give Notre Dame a Modern Roof the Alt-Right Will Hate

Medieval Europe was a crossroads of global influence, not a mythical all-white past. The new Notre Dame should reflect that.

Erika Harlitz-Kern
04.19.19 10:39 PM ET, OPINION

… If you ask me, in honor of Notre Dame’s history, the new roof needs to be a brand new design, representative of today and not of the past.

Why? Well, the restoration and preservation of historical buildings is based on an idea that there is an original state of things that can be reached if later additions and influences are done away with.

The idea of there being an ‘original state of things’ is also what dominates the worldview of the far right, who use their interpretation of the Middle Ages as a template for how they believe society should be.

While Notre Dame was burning, conspiracy theories began to surface, and declarations were made of the fire portending the end of Western civilization and its Judeo-Christian values. Instead, what was happening was the destruction of a medieval past that has, in all honesty, never existed.

Western civilization is a term that grew out of the creation of history as a topic of study at the universities in England, Germany, and France in the 19th century. In her book History. Why It Matters, historian Lynn Hunt states that “history grew as an academic discipline in tandem with nationalism and a growing conviction of European superiority over the rest of the world.” This conviction led to the West “being portrayed as the source of technical innovation and cultural advancement,” also known as “modernity.”

The origins of “modernity” were found in a distorted interpretation of the Middle Ages, which medievalist Dorothy Kim traces to the German Völkisch movement, also in the 19th century. According to Kim, this movement “rewrote history, drawing from folklore such as that of Brothers Grimm, medieval epics and a dedication to racial white supremacy.”

From these two developments, the term “Western civilization” emerged in the 1890s

“Western civilization” is a Jewish-friendly substitute for the older term “Christendom.”

, but it didn’t come into everyday use until the 20th century was well underway. According to philosopher Kwame Anthony Appiah, the term “West” is used in contrast to something else. During the age of Imperialism it was used in contrast to Asia; during the Cold War in contrast to Communist Europe and the Soviet Union; and today to Latin America, Africa, and Asia (also known as “the Global South”), and the Muslim world. Looking at the world from this point of view, “West” and “Western civilization” come to mean the United States, Europe, and Christianity.

With Notre Dame cathedral as the heart of the Île de la Cité, the Île de la Cité as the heart of Paris, Paris as the heart of France, and France as the heart of Western Christendom. This idea is perhaps not quite a thousand years old yet, but it’s awfully old.

This brings us to the notion of Judeo-Christian values, where once again the Middle Ages are used to make an argument that actually misrepresents the time period. In the eyes of those who promote the ideas of Western civilization and so-called Judeo-Christian values, the Middle Ages stand out as the ideal time period when Europe was a white society united in a homogenous Christian culture led by one single Christian institution.

Such a view of the Middle Ages is inaccurate. In fact, what is considered to be European culture, in the past and today, is an amalgamation of impulses from all over the world.

As you moronic alt-righters would know if you were keeping up to date on your television-watching. If you’d watched the new Mary Queen of Scots, you would have seen that there were black and Chinese members of the Scottish aristocracy in the 16th Century. But you are so hatefully ignorant that you didn’t know that.

During the Middle Ages, Europe communicated closely with Africa, Asia, and the Middle East using networks that were several thousand years old.

For example, children still play the game “Marco Polo” because he was just one of millions of travelers who went back and forth each year between Europe and China then.

And Richard the Lionhearted “communicated closely” with the Middle East.

And I’m sure I’ll come up with the name of a sub-Saharan traveler any moment now …

You can tell that medieval Europeans were communicating closely with the rest of the world from their Grand Strategy of getting in touch with the legendary Christian king Prester John out there somewhere, either in Asia or perhaps in Africa, and getting him to open a second front against the Musselmen. Obviously, the existence of the Prester John concept proves Europeans were closely communicating with the rest of the world.

Important to keep in mind is that at this point in time, Europe was located at the periphery of the world economic system, whose center lay in the civilizations surrounding the Indian Ocean.

Even though the Catholic Church was the dominating religious institution in the Middle Ages, it did not have monopoly on religion. Medieval Europe was the home of Orthodox Christians, Jews, pagans, and Muslims. The idea of a shared Judeo-Christian medieval origin is immediately contradicted by what we know of the church’s persecution of the Jews living in medieval Europe, perhaps best illustrated by the two sculptures known as Ecclesia and Sinagoga, visible on the façade of Notre Dame itself. These two sculptures represent Christianity’s triumph over Judaism and were a common sight during the 12th and 13th centuries.

… Nevertheless, Notre Dame’s new roof should be a representation of the architecture of the first decades of the 21st century, more in the spirit of the pyramid at the Louvre than the spire that no longer defines the Paris city silhouette.

Macron should commission misanthropic Los Angeles starchitect Thom Mayne to redo Notre Dame in the manner of his CalTrans building so that the cathedral looks like a Thought Police Academy.

Now that would be in tune with the times.

 
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  1. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:

    There are Alt-Right intellectuals who are against “the West” or “Western civilization” as terms and concepts, and propose alternatives. Incidentally, they tend to be French and affiliated with Alain de Benoist and other French intellectuals who founded what came to be known as the European New Right.

    https://www.counter-currents.com/2012/03/titans-are-in-town-preface-to-pierre-krebs-fighting-for-the-essence/

    Krebs’ nomenclature, original with him so far as I know, draws a sharp contrast between “Europe” and “the West.” “Europe” refers to the great racial and cultural tradition he wishes to defend; “the West” means today’s “Western community of values” that engages in humanitarian bombing campaigns, enforces tolerance at gunpoint on its subject populations, prefers the stranger to the kinsman, and wishes to erase even the distinction between men and women.

    Prof. Krebs is good at pointing up the antinomies of this modern ideological abortion: its homogenization in the name of diversity and suppression of particularity in the name of tolerance. Multiculturalism and multiracialism, as he observes, are mystifying terms which function to conceal a culturicidal and raciophobic program of deracination and panmixia. “The doctrine of human rights should be seen for what it really is: the ideological alibi of the West in a battle to the death that it has declared on all the peoples of the world.”

    • Replies: @TWS
  2. Dan Hayes says:

    Another candidate: the misbegotten architect who designed Cardinal Mahony’s ill-begotten LA cathedral is just the man/woman/they for the new reconstituted Notre Dame Cathedral.

    • Replies: @FredCDobbs
  3. I’m reminded of the “purists” who were aghast at some wood worker who designed Shaker style furniture using Baltic Birch plywood. They had a rigid idea of Shaker principles based on antiques made before plywood was available; they were ignorant of Shaker proclivity towards simplicity and function, two criteria that plywood meets nicely.

    The appearance of the Notre Dame cathedral needs to be preserved as a work of art. The method of achieving that look can include modern construction techniques, for example, reinforced concrete. Before anybody has a “purist” hissy fit, consider that flying buttresses are nothing more than reinforced masonry, and would not have been built had they not been needed.

    In an updated retellng of the Hunchback of Notre Dame, Quasimodo would be replaced by the Mall Heaver. Moral handicaps are just as debilitating as scoliosis, and Heaver apologists believe he deserves our compassion.

    • Replies: @newrouter
  4. “Let’s get misanthropic Los Angeles starchitect Thom Mayne to redo Notre Dame in the manner of his CalTrans building so that it looks like a Thought Police Academy.”

    Let’s just cut to the chase and replace the spire with a minaret adorned with a star and crescent. Our lords and masters are surely more comfortable with that rather than anything that would remind us of Christendom.

    • Replies: @Buck Ransom
  5. notanon says:

    During the Middle Ages, Europe communicated closely with Africa, Asia, and the Middle East using networks that were several thousand years old.

    the way east was blocked by the Arab invasion of the middle east and north Africa – that’s why they sailed west to see if they could get to China and India the other way.

    • Replies: @syonredux
  6. The Alt-Right has turned out to be a few hundred drinking buddies, a few thousand internet trolls and less than a handful of public intellectuals. Media outlets like the Daily Beast only discuss them because they need a straw man.

  7. Pure mental projection:

    The idea of there being an ‘original state of things’ is also what dominates the worldview of the far right left, who use their interpretation of the Middle Ages Bambi as a template for how they believe society the environment should be.

    Interesting that. So let’s try again:

    The idea of there being an ‘original state of things’ is also what dominates the worldview of the far left, who use their interpretation of Africa as a template for how they believe society should be.

  8. Cortes says:

    Most architects these days seem to be delusional arseholes. Whether it’s building flat-roofed houses in areas with 100+ inches of annual rainfall or stilted high rise blocks in cities renowned for winter winds in excess of 60 mph or the use of “groundbreaking” modern composite facing materials which look great for less than a year they can be relied upon to excel.

    So I’d be unsurprised to see the all-new Notre Dame feature in one of my favourite series…

    https://kunstler.com/featured-eyesore-of-the-month/

  9. Barnard says:

    Millions of people traveled from Europe to China during the time of Marco Polo? What was the total population of Europe then, 50 million?

    • Replies: @Flip
  10. Ibound1 says:

    Churchill used the words “Christian Civilization” in 1940. Would anyone understand to what he was referring?

  11. The phrase Western civilization refers to the constellation of ideas and the aesthetics, originating in Ancient Greece and carried on by the Romans. After the fall of Rome, the knowledge of Antiquity was preserved by Medieval scribes. Christian monks made sure that the knowledge was held in abeyance until rediscovered in the Renaissance, where the culture of the Ancient Greeks was amalgamated with Christianity, resulting in some of the greatest works of art since the Golden Age of Greece.

    But the Medieval style has its fans, including the Pre-Raphaelite painters of England who sought to revive the art of their day with the freshness of the Medieval coloring, the lack of academic artifice and the emotional intensity of Western art’s “Dark Ages.” Though Medieval paintings lack the cast shadows and linear perspective of later periods of Western art, the rudiments of compositional mastery are all there in the work of painters like Giotto.

    Which is why Medieval painters were embraced by modernist art critics, like Clement Greenberg. With the modernists, it was not any desire to elevate the political or religious ideas of the West’s Dark Ages, but the quality of the design and craftsmanship in and of itself that they valued.

    The Gothic style in architecture has the same aesthetic merit as the painting of the era if not more. It might be due to the collaborative nature of cathedral-building. It required all of that manual and intellectual effort just to get such a massive cathedral project done. Even in photographs, you can see how lovingly all of the intricate details were carved by Medieval artisans.

    The committed perfectionism on display across so many areas of engineering and the applied arts during the Middle Ages—a time when everything took so much more effort than today—might be attributable to the depth of the cathedral builders’ faith.

    Most humans today complain when they have to walk across the room to reach their remote control, even if they claim to have a worshipful devotion to some sports team, yelling pundit or sexy actor’s show.

    Although it would be in keeping with most everything else in this era to diss the Notre Dame cathedral by arrogantly installing a spire that reflects this era’s ethos, it won’t surprise me if they do. After all, it would be a lot less trouble copy the copies of Mid-Century Modern designs that aren’t really new, but are are widely available on every big retailer’s site per current design trends, echoing design trends of a past era no more or less than the pre-Raphaelites did with the Gothic.

    The only difference would be the level of difficulty, with the simple lines of mass-produced Mid-Century Modern designs being much easier to replicate than William Morris’ efforts to reproduce the intricacy of a Medieval tapestry. That was like trying to reproduce a faithful copy of a Gothic cathedral’s roof. It required a lot of grit. But the Pre-Raphaelites were quite a few generations back, when people in respected positions were actually expected to work hard. As were their underlings.

    Those Medieval artisans who built Notre Dame could chop down trees the size of houses in modern gated communities with axes forged by hand, haul those bad boys to the city in some contraption far less convenient then an F-150 pickup, saw the massive hunks of wood into presentable columns and beams and hoist those gargantuan things to the height of a skyscraper.

    We can’t have the smartphone-tapping generation going to all of that trouble. They’re busy-working parents in their family-friendly jobs with vacations to take.

    • Replies: @Libertine75
    , @Reg Cæsar
  12. Anonymous[136] • Disclaimer says:

    lol, the “pyramid at the Louvre” by I.M. Pei (apparently no relation to I.P. Frehley)

    Modern correctness = whatever the gay media tastemakers like best & most recently

    • Agree: Cortes
  13. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:

    “Here Come the Architects: Modernists Want Glass Roof, Steel Spire, or Minaret for Notre Dame”

    https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/04/20/modern-architects-want-glass-roof-steel-spire-minaret-notre-dame/

    Perhaps most controversial is a proposal in Domus, the architecture magazine, by Tom Wilkinson, for the fallen spire to be replaced with an Islamic minaret, to memorialise Algerians who protested the French government in the 1960s.

    “These victims of the state could be memorialised by replacing [the spire] with – why not? – a graceful minaret,” Wilkinson insisted.

  14. Give Notre Dame a Modern Roof the Alt-Right Will Hate

    … and as ugly as her stitched-together surname.

  15. syonredux [AKA "dr syon"] says:

    Why? Well, the restoration and preservation of historical buildings is based on an idea that there is an original state of things that can be reached if later additions and influences are done away with.

    The idea of there being an ‘original state of things’ is also what dominates the worldview of the far right, who use their interpretation of the Middle Ages as a template for how they believe society should be.

    Of course, I also hear lots of whinging from POC about how great things were before the Europeans ruined everything…..How Wakanda was a glorious vision of what Black Africa could be without the taint of colonization….

    but it didn’t come into everyday use until the 20th century was well underway. According to philosopher Kwame Anthony Appiah, the term “West” is used in contrast to something else. During the age of Imperialism it was used in contrast to Asia; during the Cold War in contrast to Communist Europe and the Soviet Union; and today to Latin America, Africa, and Asia (also known as “the Global South”), and the Muslim world.

    Well, difference is how one defines a thing. I never realized just how much of a Californian I am before I lived in Massachusetts….

    Looking at the world from this point of view, “West” and “Western civilization” come to mean the United States, Europe, and Christianity.

    I’d toss in Canada, Australia and New Zealand, perhaps the Southern Cone of South America (Argentina, etc).

    Such a view of the Middle Ages is inaccurate. In fact, what is considered to be European culture, in the past and today, is an amalgamation of impulses from all over the world.

    When exactly did people believe that Medieval European culture was entirely autochthonous? I picked up a high school history from the 1930s recently, and it was full of stuff about Arabic numerals (more properly Hindu, but still), Islamic contributions to Medieval thought (Averroes , Avicenna, etc), how algebra was an Arabic word, etc…..

    • Replies: @TWS
  16. El Dato says:

    Bolchevistic destructiveness and rank nastiness. Who is “Erika Harlitz-Kern”?

    In the eyes of those who promote the ideas of Western civilization and so-called Judeo-Christian values, the Middle Ages stand out as the ideal time period when Europe was a white society united in a homogenous Christian culture led by one single Christian institution.

    Really?

    Who exactly talks about “Judeo-Christian” value except congressmen who want to curry favour with the guys with the jewish money?

    Who believes the “Middle Ages” were ideal in any sense? It was internecine fighting, invasions from all directions, religion being weaponized, plague with no-vaxxers around you, and generally poverty, feudalism and no Internet.

    But yeah, let’s call on anothewr country to be silly to spite our political boogeyman. It’s a good plan, works in the Middle East all the time.

    Meanwhile:

    https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2019/04/20/notre-dame-cathedral-fire-1-billion-rebuild-paris-france-church/3528844002/

    A spokesman for the cathedral told CBS News that current donations may not cover those costs.

    “We don’t know if it’s enough or not,” Andre Finot said, the network reported Saturday. “You can say it’s crazy to have a billion euros but we don’t know. Maybe the cost is two or three billion.”

    French President Emmanuel Macron has called for Notre Dame to be rebuilt in five years. France, he said, would “convert this disaster into an opportunity.” Architects say the repairs could take decades.

    “Paris needs Notre Dame,” said Aime Cougoureux, the owner of Ma Bourgogne, a popular restaurant near the Victor Hugo museum. “The tourists love it, too, especially Americans. When there are no Americans in Paris, it’s an economic crisis.”

    The fundraising effort has sparked debate after multiple French billionaires pledged massive donations.

    International news coverage has spotlighted negative reactions, often accompanied by a general sympathy for the massive rebuilding cause. A common position among critics: The mega-donations prove social problems could be quickly addressed if the wealthy were motivated to do so.

    I don’t see how rebuilding the cathedral is a social problem, but then what do I know.

    Further afield, even in a France invaded by Aliens (some of which look like fatty angels and have high reproductive rates) and run by a hard fascist who likes facepaint, Notre Dame is still as it should be. (From Enki Bilal’s “La Foire aux Immortels”)

    • Replies: @bored identity
  17. Yes, because the care of cultural treasures should be all about pissing off those you oppose.

    • Replies: @Pericles
  18. Instead, what was happening was the destruction of a medieval past that has, in all honesty, never existed.

    Never existed? Well, what the hell was burning the other day, and why were all those firemen doing there? Is Erika trying to tell me that the Notre Dame was not 860 years old? Who’s got the title, then?

    Seriously, the amount of gall it takes to just write off all the years’ study of the Middle Ages and about every single history book ever written on it is tremendous. BTW, what’s this “amalgamation of impulses” of which you speak? Got any names, dates, places? Man, history seems so much easier now. We used to have to memorize a huge number of names, dates, and places so we could write that stuff down as quick as we could on the test during the boring history class taught by the coach, before it was gone from our heads 30 minutes later. It’s gotta be great to just make shit up. Of course, it’s the internet, so ….

    Oh, that was a great line about Marco Polo, Steve! It does bring up a story. A lady in Cathay (that’s over in the Orient, you know) told me that her village had never ever had a foreigner there. Keep in mind, a village in China can contain 200,000 people. I said “Whaddya’ mean? Not even Marco Polo?” “Nope, he didn’t come through here.” “Sure, whatever.”

  19. bgates says:

    It’s the day before Easter, and this woman has taken to the pages of a publication called The Beast to suggest that the church should try to inspire more hatred.

    I detect clues she may not have the best interests of the faith in mind.

    • LOL: ic1000
  20. A nice painting to honor Dietrich von Choltitz, great hero of Paris, and the only reason there was a Notre Dame to catch on fire would be nice.

  21. @Dan Hayes

    and staying with the topic of horrid architecture……

    Thom Mayne’s CalTrans building —perhaps the most depressing, foreboding structure in……well all of Christendom.

    (More depressing, foreboding and downright silly buildings CAN be found by the bushel in the Far East.)

    • Agree: Dan Hayes
  22. Dumbo says:

    I wonder who started to use this “Judeo-Christian” term. I found an article from the fifties already using this expression. The writer was Jewish.

    It is kinda funny because Christians and Jews have been basically fighting at opposite sides in Europe for hundreds of years.

    I guess we must conclude that Europeans/Christians are antisemitic, unless they create something nice, then they are “Judeo-Christian”.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesia_and_Synagoga

    https://www.jta.org/2015/03/20/archive/from-notre-dame-to-prague-europes-anti-semitism-is-literally-carved-in-stone

  23. Destroying your civilization to own the racists …

  24. While you’re at it, might as well make the new Notre Dame look like this:

    • Replies: @Bill Jones
  25. I wonder when the author of this article will begin to push for redesigning the Kaaba so that it looks more like a church or a synagogue. After all, there were Christians and Jews in Arabia before Muhammad was born.

  26. George says:

    “Western civilization” is a Jewish-friendly substitute for the older term “Christendom.”

    Actually, Western Civilization is a pagan/heathen friendly term.

    Fun fact, there is a statue of Charlemagne in front of Notre Dame. Among other things, Charlemagne destroyed an important pagan totem, the Irminsul, during a sort of Crusade to convert the Saxons. It is only fitting that latter-day pagans, the secular French government, burn down the preeminent Catholic symbol associated with Charlemagne as revenge.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlemagne_et_ses_Leudes
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irminsul

    • Replies: @TGGP
    , @SFG
  27. Anonymous[402] • Disclaimer says:

    Are you kidding?

    Nothing less than a minaret will do.

  28. Jew lectures Christians how to rebuild a Christian church.

    This should end well.

    • Replies: @Anon
  29. They could get Baikdoosan Architects & Engineers for the project.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryugyong_Hotel

  30. CCZ says:

    “It would never cross anyone’s mind to suggest that Mecca or the Golden Temple should lose their distinctively Islamic and Sikh characters to accommodate people of different faiths,” writes Ben Sixsmith.

    https://spectator.us/modernists-notre-dame-restoration/

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
    , @Anon
  31. Rosie says:

    I couldn’t bear to read more than a couple sentences of this, but my impression is that the author is talking out of both sides of its mouth. If medieval Europe was really globalist and multicultural, then why does ND need a modern makeover?

  32. “And I’m sure I’ll come up with the name of a sub-Saharan traveler any moment now …”

    Mohammed.

    More accurate would be perhaps Mohammed Ali. (one of the 5 Rightly Guided Caliphs that helped conquer Northern Africa during the 7th/8th centuries, or someone along those lines which necessitated the fable of Prester John in Africa.)

    Notice the incessant use of the term “Judeo-Christian” by the author of the article.

    “Judeo” is used to piggyback on any and all positive aspects of Western Civilization. Even though, facts being as they are, up from about 1000 to 1700’s, little to none can be directly attributed to Judeo influence per se, and thus the positive aspects of Western Civilization were all Christian or nominally identified as Christian as such. Some might counter that, ‘yes, but didn’t Judeos help preserve Greek manuscripts for the West?’ To which the reply is made, “and so did other Greeks, as well as Mohammedans’. As well as Judeos leading the West in such things as usury in banking, which was one of the main reasons they were expelled from the Western nations during the Middle Ages. Judeos also took a front row position in the Slave Trade during the late Middle Ages/Rennaissance/Age of Exploration, but they’re not too keen to have people notice that fact today. Aside from exploiting the crude profit motive during the Middle Ages, one generally doesn’t automatically think of Judeos as having done much of anything in the Middle Ages West (regarding art, culture, literature, scientific development, theology, philosophy, development of government, etc.) Wonder why?

    “Christian” is used alone when the author wants to bash Western Civilization for any and all negative aspects of Christendom.

    • Agree: RationalExpressions
    • Replies: @syonredux
    , @Bubba
    , @Dtbb
  33. ic1000 says:

    > In the eyes of those who promote the ideas of Western civilization and so-called Judeo-Christian values, the Middle Ages stand out as the ideal time period when Europe was a white society united in a homogenous Christian culture led by one single Christian institution.

    This is an embarrassing instance of somebody trying to stuff words into another person’s mouth. Is there an educated Western intellectual whose beliefs actually align with this author’s claims?

    According to this promotional webpage, Harlitz-Kern is an Adjunct Instructor at Florida International University and a Visiting Scholar at University of Miami with a Ph.D. in medieval and early-modern history from the University of Gothenburg, Sweden. Specializing in the history of state formation and urbanization from a global perspective over the long-term, she studies northern Europe with focus on Sweden from the Viking Age and onwards.

    As a grown woman who has taken many classes by this point in her life, Dr. Harlitz-Kern should have learned enough to recognize the multiple false assertions in her essay.

    This malevolent lightweight should be kept far away from impressionable young minds.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    , @Reg Cæsar
  34. We could train a machine learning algorithm on Basquiat’s work and have it design the paint job.

  35. ic1000 says:
    @Rosie

    > If medieval Europe was really globalist and multicultural, then why does ND need a modern makeover?

    Dr. Harlitz-Kern’s real desire is to see the stone blocks of Notre Dame used to build a giant statue of Stalin, to tower over the Paris skyline.

    [Edit: a stupid and baseless assertion on my part, thus wholly in keeping with the spirit of her essay.]

  36. Forbes says:
    @Rosie

    Exactly. Obviously Notre Dame’s (original) architecture reflected a civilization that communicated closely with Africa, Asia, and the Middle East using networks that were several thousand years old. Precisely the argument for a restoration, not a make-over…

  37. Erika Harlitz-Kern:

    If you ask me, in honor of Notre Dame’s history, the new roof needs to be a brand new design, representative of today and not of the past.

    Harlitz-Kern is unwittingly bringing back the case for witch burnings.

    Nevertheless, Notre Dame’s new roof should be a representation of the architecture of the first decades of the 21st century, more in the spirit of the pyramid at the Louvre than the spire that no longer defines the Paris city silhouette.

    ‘Cosmopolitans’ are hankering big time for a different design: Our own Jack D has been slamming Viollet-le-Duc’s great neo-Gothic flèche in recent threads. That should tell you all you need to know.

    I’m surprised at some others here who want to see a new design, or to have no spire at all. Notre-Dame was meant to have a spire, and le-Duc’s design was excellent. The more modest original was fine, also, but IMO surpassed by le-Duc’s, which was of-a-piece with the body of his restoration of the cathedral.

    Any other choice besides the latter two is an aesthetic mistake and capitulation to those who have antipathy towards Christendom and Western Civilization. (#57)

    • Replies: @Jack D
  38. By this broad’s logic they should change the name of Harare, Zimbabwe back to Salisbury, Rhodesia. Und historically, Taunton is a part of Minehead already!

  39. njguy73 says:

    As James Howard Kunstler would say, the new roof should have frescoes of Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein, and Josef Stalin so it gives off a despotic vibe and makes us feel like termites.

  40. Peterike says:

    Good. I hope they rebuild it with a ghastly modern po-mo monstrosity. It might wake people up.

  41. The idea of there being an ‘original state of things’

    Yes, this idea can be summed up by the Latin phrase ad fontes, the motto of the Renaissance.

    She wants to take the anti-Renaissance team I’ll happily take the other. Fish in a barrel.

  42. B36 says:

    Sounds like a job for Frank Gehry and his deformed tin foil!

  43. @ic1000

    should be kept

    Passive voice is just the thing to get ‘er done.

  44. It goes without saying that no one should expect good historiography from The Daily Beast. But this piece sets some new record for the most concentrated ignorance and stupidity per word.

    It starts with the idiot straw man idea that conventional wisdom supposedly holds up the Middle Ages as a cultural utopia.

    the Middle Ages stand out as the ideal time period when Europe was a white society united in a homogenous Christian culture led by one single Christian institution . . .

    In fact, everyone has always understood the Middle Ages to be the backward state of affairs from which modern Western Civilization arose via the Renaisance, the Reformation, the Enlightenment, and the Industrial and Scientific Revolutions.

    In any event, having set up this absurd straw man argument the Beast proceeds to “debunk” it with the obviously false assertion that the Middle Ages was really a period of globalism and multiculturalism. The reality of course is that it was a period of atomized and isolated fieffoms. 99% of Europeans were superstitious, illiterate and lived and died in the same village they were born. A ferment of global intellectual exchange it was not.

    After purporting to knock down its strawman with fake facts, the article finally jumps to its utterly non-sequitur conclusion — i.e., that Notre Dame should get a pyramid or something on its roof.

    Whatever. Luckily for Western Civilization the multiculturists are clearly not sending their best.

    • Replies: @anon
    , @anon
  45. Ron Unz says:

    I remember back a couple of decades ago, the PRC government was sensible enough to put sharp restrictions upon the distribution of Hollywood movies and TV, and then a decade later, they shrewdly began blocking free access to the American-dominated Internet.

    If they hadn’t taken those precautionary steps, I suspect that a large percentage of younger Chinese people would be starting to believe that China had always had a huge African population and that some of the most notable emperors had their ancestry in the Congo…

  46. There are all kinds of these people who just can’t wait to defile this central icon of our civilization. This is beyond obscene. I would say the design should be left up to the church but the state of the church these days…

  47. Flip says:
    @Barnard

    Millions of people traveled from Europe to China during the time of Marco Polo? What was the total population of Europe then, 50 million?

    He was being facetious.

  48. L Woods says:

    If Medieval Europe was so Diverse, how could it also have been so ignorant and backward? I was given to believe that Diversity is the ultimate bringer of vibrancy, dynamism and enlightenment — surely our betters wouldn’t have misinformed us.

  49. BB753 says:

    Let them build a glass piramid on top, a masonic piramid not unlike that which defiles the Louvre. Masonry reigns supreme in Macron’s France, anyway.

  50. Hunsdon says:
    @jcd1974

    Somewhere I read the phrase, “Gradually, I began to hate them.” I am almost certain this is a forbidden thought, but I am not sure. Can Comrade Obrien point me in the right direction?

    • Replies: @Cortes
    , @SFG
  51. newrouter says:
    @James Speaks

    >can include modern construction techniques, for example, reinforced concrete. <

    Too heavy. Laminated wood.

    • Replies: @James Speaks
  52. Cortes says:

    A Star of David (Davide) would do the travail.

  53. Cortes says:
    @Hunsdon

    No.

    But I’m hoping that comrade War Nerd’s essay on Orwell will…set you free.

  54. Erika Harlitz-Kern =

    Raze ark, Hitler kin!

  55. @jcd1974

    Jewish? I doubt it with that name and nose. She’s just some chick conforming to this suicidal system we have now.

  56. Western civilization is a term that grew out of the creation of history as a topic of study at the universities in England, Germany, and France in the 19th century. In her book History. Why It Matters, historian Lynn Hunt states that “history grew as an academic discipline in tandem with nationalism and a growing conviction of European superiority over the rest of the world.”

    In other words, “history” itself, otherwise known as everything that has actually happened up until now, has dubious origins; basically just made up by a bunch of nationalist, proto-Nazis. What Really Happened is whatever I say happened. Wakanda is as real as anything Edward Gibbon wrote about.

  57. @ic1000

    an Adjunct Instructor at Florida International University and a Visiting Scholar at University of Miami

    Miami about 1900:

  58. @Ron Unz

    Hi, Ron. OT — I noticed a bug in my comments history: A deleted draft at 12:55 PM of my 1:00 AM comment above was kept and inserted out of sequence (scroll down through my comments history between 4/20 and 4/19).

  59. syonredux [AKA "dr syon"] says:
    @notanon

    During the Middle Ages, Europe communicated closely with Africa, Asia, and the Middle East using networks that were several thousand years old.

    the way east was blocked by the Arab invasion of the middle east and north Africa – that’s why they sailed west to see if they could get to China and India the other way.

    She’s probably thinking of the Pax Mongolica :

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pax_Mongolica

  60. syonredux [AKA "dr syon"] says:
    @Ron Unz

    Never thought that you would look favorably on censorship…….

  61. Important to keep in mind is that at this point in time, Europe was located at the periphery of the world economic system, whose center lay in the civilizations surrounding the Indian Ocean.

    And still is, and still lies. So tell them to go back.

  62. syonredux [AKA "dr syon"] says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    “And I’m sure I’ll come up with the name of a sub-Saharan traveler any moment now …”

    Mohammed.

    More accurate would be perhaps Mohammed Ali. (one of the 5 Rightly Guided Caliphs that helped conquer Northern Africa during the 7th/8th centuries, or someone along those lines which necessitated the fable of Prester John in Africa.)

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
  63. Isn’t the popularity of the term “western” or “West” also a reflection of European expansion into the Americas. American cultural expressions such as Californian architecture, Argentinian Tango Dancing, or country and western music, are clearly part of “western culture” but are only indirectly part of European culture.

  64. • Replies: @Cagey Beast
  65. @newrouter

    Epoxy saturated, decay resistant timbers for roof beams – agreed.

    RC is useful for stiffening columns, for example, on the flying buttresses. The beams, too. I’m not up on all the current technologies – the French engineers are. But kevlar, I think it is kevlart and not carbon fiber, can be laminated onto the exterior of masonry to give the same benefit is internal rebar.

    There are many ways modern construction techniques can be used to preserve the architectural vision of the builders.

    • Agree: Desiderius
    • Replies: @newrouter
  66. L Woods says:
    @Cagey Beast

    And like any fringe movement, a petty, fratricidal circus. Staying ‘in’ is like winning the hunger games, except that your ‘prize’ is to remain a pariah.

    • Replies: @Pericles
  67. @PiltdownMan

    She’s attached to a university in Miami, Florida. Just imagine what percentage of her colleagues are Jewish. Floridians are not notoriously bookish. That’s why their menus have pictures of the food rather than just text. In a way, these all-day breakfast menus are Florida’s equivalent of the stained glass windows of Notre Dame. They are there to instruct the unlettered.

    My point is that if she’s working at a Miami university, she’s going to be surrounded by Passover types.

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
  68. Cortes says:
    @Ron Unz

    There are a few credible sources ( I remember the Khrushchev Memoirs) telling of the late-night banquets at Stalin’s dacha when the latest Hollywood Westerns were viewed – to wonderful comedic effects.

    How dare those slopes censor us!!!

  69. @Dumbo

    I think the first person I ever heard use the term was, oddly enough, Pat Buchanan. It might have been at a keynote speech at the Republican convention – 88 or 92, maybe?

  70. Steve wrote:

    “Western civilization” is a Jewish-friendly substitute for the older term “Christendom.”

    Like others here, I think that take is misleading. While it’s true that many Jews wince at the thought of “Christendom,” those same Jews probably don’t have fond thoughts of ancient Greeks and Romans either.

    And it doesn’t merely have to do with victimhood: Anything that contemporary whites can point to as part of a glorious inherited past is a bane to the admonishing ‘fellow whites’. Donna Zuckerberg has no love for the Storied Pomp of Ancient Lands. Except maybe for that of her own tribe.

  71. Assuming the comment about Mary Queen of Scots was not satire… you’re an idiot. The movie isn’t factual. It’s stylized. The multi ethnic cast was an impressionistic choice. There were no Asian or black Scottish nobility. Then or ever.

    Get your history from history books. Not bad movies.

  72. anonymous[751] • Disclaimer says:

    So, Steve, when are you going to give up your cringe boomer “muh civic nationalism, libs are the real racists!” shtick and join the fight?

  73. Jim Given says:

    Here’s an AP article Creatively Interpreting the weekly Yellow Vest protests in France as being in opposition to rebuilding Notre Dame:
    https://www.apnews.com/fd877004c7b942568fe8d95a1229e180

    (if you can’t beat them, re-purpose them-

    But let’s face it. Rebuilding Notre Dame is just taking us back to the Stone Age; rebuilding the hated Catholic Church instead of empowering the people. Going Back to Old and Evil. I have a Better Idea; an an idea of
    How We Can All Get Along:

    I understand modern architecture majors in college get a project of designing a non-sectarian church for the grounds of a university. No crosses or minarets of course. Think Universal-

    What about rebuilding Notre Dame as a Gaia Church – A Temple for Our Lady of the Earth!
    George Soros or Jeff Bezos or someone just like them can offer one million dollars for the winning design! Progressives for all the world can submit designs! Maya Lin could contribute a Wall containing the names of all women burned as witches-

  74. Lot says:

    The CalTrans building is the ugliest building I’ve seen that isn’t a concrete brutalist hulk. From a distance it doesn’t look too bad, but at street level it really has that secret police HQ look.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    , @Buzz Mohawk
  75. Mr. Anon says:

    “The origins of “modernity” were found in a distorted interpretation of the Middle Ages, which medievalist Dorothy Kim traces to the German Völkisch movement, also in the 19th century.”

    “…………, but it didn’t come into everyday use until the 20th century was well underway. According to philosopher Kwame Anthony Appiah, the term “West” is used in contrast to something else.”

    I don’t see why I should care what either of these two people think about my cultural patrimony. They can go stuff themselves.

    They, and others like them, are engaged in an extended exercise of “othering” me and mine. In fact, what they practice could be called “occidentalism” – a tendentious interpretation of western history in the service of a racist colonialist agenda.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  76. Mr. Anon says:
    @Lot

    I think that building was once featured at James Howard Kunstler’s website as the “Eyesore of the Month”.

  77. Mr. Anon says:

    … Nevertheless, Notre Dame’s new roof should be a representation of the architecture of the first decades of the 21st century, more in the spirit of the pyramid at the Louvre than the spire that no longer defines the Paris city silhouette.

    Shouldn’t Notre Dame be rebuilt in such a way as to please Catholics and glorify God? It’s their church.

    • Agree: ben tillman
  78. Commenters at 14 and 28 are most of the way towards explaining the term “Western Civilization.” It used to be called “Western Christendom” to distinguish it from Eastern Christendom (and from other lands).

    It was later secularized into “Western Civilization” and retconned as the repository of Judeo-Christian values. And now anybody’s values and next the negation of all values, I suppose.

    I’m exhausted with the Erika Goebbels-Trotskys of multiculturalism, their lack of basic knowledge, their childish reasoning, their poorly disguised malice, their smug, schoolmarmish tut-tutting. They resemble the pious Babbitts I pretended to tolerate as as an intelligent and self-taught youth in the 1950s rural west.

    • LOL: utu
    • Replies: @SFG
  79. Roofing is hard, but Erika and her katz still saved some energy to take us into the weekend :

    Speaking of which,

    Happy Easter

    and Happy Passover

    to Y’all Sailerites.

  80. Bubba says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Mohammed.

    I enjoyed reading you post and I am definitely not a conspiracy theorist wannabe, but there is considerable doubt whether the founder of Islam named “Mohammed” actually existed. Actually I’ll cut to the chase – he’s entirely fable/legend. But if you publish scholarly research on the subject you’ll find out your fate is similar to anyone drawing a simple caricature or cartoon of “Mohammed.”

    Happy Easter!

  81. Anon[311] • Disclaimer says:
    @R.G. Camara

    It always does.

  82. istevefan says:
    @Dumbo

    I believe the original definition of Judeo-Christian was as a term to describe a Jew who had converted to Christianity. It was not used in the manner in which it is today.

  83. newrouter says:

    Has Judeo-Christ risen?

  84. Dtbb says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Mohammed Ali the Albanian?

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
  85. For example, children still play the game “Marco Polo” because he was just one of millions of travelers who went back and forth each year between Europe and China then.

    And Richard the Lionhearted “communicated closely” with the Middle East.

    Trade between Western Europe and the East (Near, Middle and Far) was dramatically curtailed between ~500CE and ~1500CE, to be sure – precisely because of the major power hitters of Team “Christendom”. Those fucktards had a very specific idea of the way shit was going to go down – the same sort of worldview that supposedly animates ISIS today.

    As an aside: astute noticers might notice that the behaviour of ISIS is specifically haram… but is entirely in keeping with the book of Joshua and the behavous of the Papists at Béziers in 1209 (“Caedite Eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius.“). Just sayin‘.

    Anyhow… prior to the “Christendom”-enforced Dark Ages, the Romans traded with China – mostly indirectly due to geography and the fact that the Parthians were in the way.

    However Maës Titianus was taken to Laouyang (then the capital of China) and presented to Emperor He in the early 2nd century CE.

    The Greeks (specifically the Greco-Bactrian kingdom) had interacted with Yon Chinee 3 centuries before that – so much so that there is clear evidence of Hellenistic influence on funerary trappings, and actual physical artefacts of Mediterranean origin.

    Of course such artefacts may have found their way to China without a European ever meeting a Chinee… that’s how most trade happens – just as we nowadays can buy an iPphone manufactured in Shenzhen or Henan and never interact with a Chinee.

    The collapse of trade as the Roman Empire entered its death throes, curtailed cultural exchange with most of the East for another several hundred years (the Eastern Roman Empire – Byzantium – rarely ventured further East).

    • Replies: @R.G. Camara
    , @SFG
  86. TGGP says: • Website
    @George

    I agree. In the medieval era people thought in terms of “Christendom”, but during the Renaissance various humanists started lauding classical civilization, and during the Enlightenment that strain of thought was combined with greater skepticism toward religion (particularly the Catholic Church). For much of that time period Jews were in but not of the west, and wouldn’t have cared about some ancient pagans. Then with the Jewish Enlightenment that insularism receded and they (for the most part) merged into a west where Christianity was still dominant but less the defining feature of life that it once was. My impression is that many alt-right types are interested in paganism as a non-universalist religion of a people (perhaps comparable to Hinduism or Judaism), but the emphasis is on Germanic varieties like Asatru rather than the Greco-Roman pantheon which interested writers of the Renaissance (and a very young TGGP, when I switched from comic books to Bulfinch’s mythology).

    If one wanted to come up with a term which would also include Muslims, we could talk in terms of “Abrahamic” religions/civilization. When the Brown Pundits “Browncast” interviewed one self-identified Hindu nationalist he derided tendencies toward religious intolerance as being “Abrahamic”, whereas the various Dharmic religions of south asia are supposed to be fluid enough to accept any tendency within their broad camp. And if some Hindu nationalists are intolerant of, for example, Muslims, they must have absorbed bad Abrahamic tendencies! The United States is sometimes said to be a better fit for many immigrants because it’s more religious than Europe. I think that secularization would inhibit any sort of “Abrahamic” identity, so it’s just going to remain western & modernist (with modernity being closely linked to the west around the world, and Japan arguably the one non-western place to out-modern us).

  87. istevefan says:

    Such a view of the Middle Ages is inaccurate. In fact, what is considered to be European culture, in the past and today, is an amalgamation of impulses from all over the world.

    I don’t believe many people think Europeans invented every single aspect of their culture. We know many ideas and inventions occurred throughout time and place, and were brought to Europe by whatever means.

    But what is not disputable is that Europeans took these ideas and inventions, which were available to other people as well, and went in a unique direction with them. It if often pointed out that China invented many things before Europe. Maybe so, but they sure developed a culture that is very much different than what happened in Europe. Ditto for India and the rest of the world.

    It’s like giving several people the identical ingredients, and then tasking them to make dinner. Are they all going to make the same dish?

    Even in Europe itself one will find cultural differences between the major regions of that continent. The parts of Europe that were Orthodox Christian differ from those that were Roman Catholic which differ from those that became Protestant.

    So enough with this crap about Europeans taking their ideas and such from others. Though parts of this might be true, Europeans took what was available, ran with it, and added their own prodigious improvements so that the end result was a unique culture that was unrelated to the cultures from which some of those ideas derived.

    • Replies: @216
  88. @Mr. Anon

    I don’t see why I should care what either of these two people think about my cultural patrimony.

    Kwame Anthony Appiah’s grandfather was Sir Stafford Cripps, Chancellor of the Exchequer to His Majesty King George the VI.

  89. 216 says:
    @istevefan

    Anthropology is entirely politicized.

    This is why we need “civilian control of academia”.

  90. @Endgame Napoleon

    Christian monks made sure that the knowledge was held in abeyance until rediscovered in the Renaissance, where the culture of the Ancient Greeks was amalgamated with Christianity, resulting in some of the greatest works of art since the Golden Age of Greece.

    Greek culture “amalgamated” with Christianity long before that. The New Testament is in Greek, the lingua franca of the eastern Mediterranean.

    A week is totally arbitrary, with no connection to nature. (Unless you count the Baha’i week, which is the square root, roughly, of the days in the year.) By coincidence, the Jewish week carried on by the Christians had the same number of days as the Greco-Roman astrological week. They dovetailed. And are almost universal.

    Thus, the Christian week has five pagan days in the Romance languages (except Portuguese, which has none) and seven in English and Dutch.

    • Replies: @syonredux
    , @Logan
  91. istevefan says:

    the Middle Ages stand out as the ideal time period when Europe was a white society united in a homogenous Christian culture led by one single Christian institution.

    Such a view of the Middle Ages is inaccurate.

    For a large part of the Middle Ages the Christian Church was united. Then somewhere around 1054 AD the schism occurred between what are now the Roman Catholics and the Orthodox. Then around 1517, you had Luther and the Reformation. But up to the schism of 1054, European Christians were not divided.

    As for the use of the term White society, is there anyone with a pulse who does not realize that Europe had, and still has, many different ethnicities with their own languages? Though they weren’t one giant homogeneous society with the same language, one can consider them a diverse group of White people.

    I have noticed that our bettors like to use a straw man with our side by suggesting we are dumb rubes who think Europe was/is one giant White,homogeneous society. What is not mentioned though is that the real dummies are they.

    For it is our bettors who tell us that Europe needs diversity. They are the ones telling us that Europe is too White, and that it is a homogeneous White society that needs to be ‘enriched’. So by their words and actions, our bettors are demonstrating that they are the ones who believe Europe is a White, homogeneous society.

    Meanwhile, those of us on our side who are against the immivasion see Europe as an already diverse collection of unique peoples, with their own languages and cultures, that are now under threat of being lost to the world due to said immivasion. So it is we who realize the true nature of Europe.

    Yet our bettors pretend that we are the rubes who only see a homogeneous continent. Pot meet the kettle.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
  92. @Anonymous

    Pei’s pyramid at the Louvre is not actually part of the museum. It’s just an entrance in the courtyard. People like Erika Harlitz-Kern can go downstairs from there and find a McDonald’s across from the gift shop.

    Another glass pyramid could be built in the big area in front of Notre Dame, complete with another underground McDonald’s and gift shop. That should satisfy gypsies like her.

    BTW if you go to the Louvre, avoid the Mona Lisa and the touristy areas. You can find great paintings at your nearest important city. Try the sculpture wing. It will be devoid of people, and you can look Marie Antoinette in the face, sculpted from life. There might not even be anyone else in the room with you, and, knowing French discipline and effectiveness at security, you could probably get away with kissing her on the lips without getting caught.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    , @SFG
    , @MBlanc46
  93. @Ibound1

    Churchill used the words “Christian Civilization” in 1940. Would anyone understand to what he was referring?

    Not to what followed. Including some of his own decisions.

    Harry Truman called America a “Christian nation” in 1947. Few have done more to prove we are not.

  94. @Buzz Mohawk

    Pei’s pyramid at the Louvre is not actually part of the museum. It’s just an entrance in the courtyard.

    I thought it was a pissoir.

    • Replies: @Bill Jones
  95. @Rosie

    Used to be, Steve would highlight comments to draw attention to them. This one should be highlighted.

  96. Anonymous[243] • Disclaimer says:

    “Western civilization” is a Jewish-friendly substitute for the older term “Christendom.”

    Well in fairness it also distinguishes white Christendom from the non-white parts of the world that were Christianized during the Age of Exploration. I would like to think that European Christians have more in common with European Jews than with African Christians who believe that doinking babies or eating albinos will cure AIDS.

    • Replies: @Amerimutt Golem
  97. @Anonymous

    lol, the “pyramid at the Louvre” by I.M. Pei (apparently no relation to I.P. Frehley)

    Certainly not to the great linguist Mario Pei who, in his spare time at Columbia, wrote this:

    https://www.unz.com/print/Freeman-1964may-00007/

    https://www.unz.com/print/Freeman-1996mar-00132/

    https://www.unz.com/print/author/PeiMarioA/

    • Replies: @Bubba
  98. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @OMG Seriously

    Get your history from history books. Not bad movies.

    So long as they are OLD history books. The new ones have been cucked.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  99. Anonymous[818] • Disclaimer says:

    I would like to think that a multicult makeover of one of the masterpieces of *Western* *Christian* architecture would finally wakeup the whites who refuse to believe they are the target of cultural and racial genocide. When I mentioned this controversy to my reliably far left, atehist sister-in-law, who has visited Notre Dame several times, she was appalled.

  100. Dave Pinsen says: • Website

    Macron should commission misanthropic Los Angeles starchitect Thom Mayne to redo Notre Dame in the manner of his CalTrans building so that the cathedral looks like a Thought Police Academy.

    Ben Sixsmith came up with a great phrase to describe these sorts of architects: “eyesore auteurs”.

  101. Anon7 says:

    “Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the roof controls the past.”

    (Almost) George Orwell.

  102. Bubba says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    Thank you for posting this.

  103. SFG says:
    @Hunsdon

    FWIW, I think this is a thoroughly disgusting idea too. Is there nothing they can’t soil with their revolting modern art? Let’s poop all over the street because the alt-right believes in toilets. Let’s make mothers feed their kids formula because the alt-right drinks milk. Let’s take down the nativity scene and replace it with a twenty-foot rusty metal nail.

    Hopefully the French have historic preservation coalitions the way we have here…

  104. @El Dato

    Dato’s keen eye should also noticed that the World is not ending in 12 years, because, according to Bilal, Paris will be six feet underground by 2023.

    • Replies: @El Dato
  105. Moses says:

    Western civilization and its Judeo-Christian values

    There is no such thing as “Judeo-Christian values”. There is no such thing as “Judeo-Christian.”

    It’s like saying “dry-wet” or “hot-cold.”

    The term contradicts itself.

    Ask a Jew – they consider nothing “Judeo” about “Christianity.”

  106. @Kratoklastes

    lol. What spurred the Age of Discovery/Renaissance was the Turks sweeping in and taking over the Spice Road.

    Before that, the trade between East and West was good enough that even Western European royals and rich had access to silks and spices. Venice was a wealthy republic during the middle ages because it was a conduit of trade between the silk road and the rest of Europe.

    Then the Turks took Constantinople, choking off the West from goods and threatening Eastern and Central Europe with mass invasion. So the West tried to do end-arounds via the ocean (Finding the Americas in the process) while the East and Central Europe prepared for war and developed new military tech.

    But yeah, play pretend with your silly anti-Christian theories there, bub.

  107. SFG says:
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Reminds me of the old Zagat’s review of the Met cafeteria: “Convenient and tasty, with many good options. There are some nice paintings upstairs too.”

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
  108. SFG says:
    @Kratoklastes

    So? Western Civ was behind Islam for a few centuries in the Middle Ages. Doesn’t mean we didn’t jump way, way ahead of them later (and remain so even as the Chinese catch up on us). It’s like these Jewish people who insist on obsessing over the fact that Islam was better for Jews than Christianity in the Middle Ages (when the pattern is almost completely the opposite now) as some sort of reason to side with Muslims in a Coalition of the Oppressed.

    • Replies: @Logan
  109. SFG says:
    @Steve Sailer

    You know, tracking down illustrious ancestors of some of these holier-than-thou POC types could be a fun sideline. Both makes a genetic argument and deflates their pretensions a little.

    I always found the whole Nicholas Tolkien thing pretty amusing. JRR’s grandson Simon (also a novelist, non-fantastic) married a Jewish lady and the son Nicholas has made a play about Theresienstadt.

  110. SFG says:
    @George

    Yeah, as TGGP says, a lot of that came out of Renaissance humanism.

    I’d say part of the basic dynamic of the West is the tension between the Christian and rationalistic/Greco-Roman strands, kind of like the way Russia swings back between pro- and anti-Western tendencies every so often.

    If you want to pull some of the Great Books lingo the descendants of Athens and Jerusalem switched places. Marxism definitely comes out of the rationalistic strand, even if it ironically wound up being pretty irrational.

  111. anon[250] • Disclaimer says:
    @jcd1974

    i was wondering because of the condescending attitude

  112. SFG says:
    @New Dealer

    Progressivism is basically a Christian heresy without Christ, Protestant division, so it makes sense.

    You have the constant search for sin (racism/sexism), the elect (POC queer women and so on), the attempts to reform society along moral lines (privilege lectures!), inquisitions (let’s throw out books made by racists!), holier-than-thou virtue-signalling, and so on.

    Ross Douthat has said as much, but I can’t imagine he’s the first one to make this observation.

    • Agree: utu, Cagey Beast
    • Replies: @guest
    , @nebulafox
  113. Speaking (of) French, a post about US Marines was translated into that language. It ended with “Once a Marine, always a Marine.” That came out (slightly incorrectly) as Une [sic] jour marin, toujours marin…

    This is what Google Translate gave me:

    A sea day, always sea …

  114. SFG says:
    @Anonymous

    From Michelangelo and Walt Whitman to…what a falling off was there, as another dead white male wrote.

  115. anon[250] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    (apparently no relation to I.P. Frehley)

    i misspelled it all these years?

    • LOL: Bubba
  116. @SFG

    For museum eateries, try the one on the roof of the Pompidou. It has a view of the city, and there is nothing of significance underneath it

  117. misanthropic Los Angeles starchitect Thom Mayne

    Thom Mayne =

    My hot name.
    Hammy note.
    Hmm… aye, not!

    Not my (ahem…)
    Money math.

    Hymen moat.
    My, the moan!

    This thing at Cornell could wipe out downtown Ithaca should it break its mooring and tumble down the hill:

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
  118. JimB says:
    @Steve Sailer

    Was Sir Stafford Cripps the founder the of the eponymous black street gang?

  119. Western civilization is a term that grew out of the creation of history as a topic of study at the universities in England, Germany, and France in the 19th century.

    East vs West was an important theme of Herodotus’ (5th century BC).

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    , @J.Ross
  120. The sixties Jewish prophet Jerry Rubin predicted that the revolution, when it came, would have “crazies” ruling. I call him a prophet as the scriptural assessment is determined by whether it actually occurs. It has.

  121. @International Jew

    It was rekindled when the Dodgers moved to Los Angeles.

  122. I’m waiting for the EU to declare it’s going to be an interdenominational safe space.

  123. While we’re at it, let’s knock down all the other cathedrals and put up mosques! The alt-right would REALLY hate that!

    • LOL: Harry Baldwin
  124. Haha racists, Kern is not a Jewish name!

    • Replies: @anon
  125. newrouter says:
    @James Speaks

    We should be fighting that the original Notre Dame be rebuilt , using whatever materials, in the fashion of 39 Jenner Ickham Errican says:
    April 21, 2019 at 1:00 am GMT • 200 Words

  126. guest says:

    Kinds their answer to every cultural matter: make it uglier.

  127. nebulafox says:
    @Bubba

    Nah, enough contemporary Byzantine sources refer to a ‘Mahomet’ that we can be pretty sure he existed. Occam’s Razor would also suggest that someone who loomed so large in the heads of the Arabs would have had a basis in reality.

    That he founded a fully formed religion and then instructed his followers to spread it worldwide, on the other hand, is mostly doubted by modern scholarship. The Qu’ran itself certainly suggests more local objectives, of founding a new community to await the seemingly imminent apocalypse. So why the conquests were launched probably had messier motivations. There are some pretty interesting (and plausible) theories in the field, but barring a time machine, we will never know for sure.

    • Replies: @Logan
  128. nebulafox says:
    @SFG

    ‘Diversity’ is a weak and stupid deity.

    I’m beginning to see-reluctantly-Nietzsche’s point when he said that most humans were not capable of handling the responsibility of creating new values in a godless age.

    • Replies: @New Dealer
  129. Mr. Anon says:
    @Steve Sailer

    Kwame Anthony Appiah’s grandfather was Sir Stafford Cripps, Chancellor of the Exchequer to His Majesty King George the VI.

    Exactly.

  130. anon[250] • Disclaimer says:
    @Father Coughlin

    neither is Smith

  131. @Lot

    There has got to be a Room 101 in there.

  132. syonredux [AKA "dr syon"] says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    Greek culture “amalgamated” with Christianity long before that. The New Testament is in Greek, the lingua franca of the eastern Mediterranean.

    It’s more than a merely linguistic amalgamation. Platonic concepts permeate the NT.

    • Replies: @utu
  133. @OMG Seriously

    Oh, I understand now: When they do it, it is “an impressionistic choice”, but when we do it, it is “cultural appropriation” or even “whiteface”.

    And “stylized” is the current preferred term for “insidious neo-Marxist propaganda”.

    Get your history from good history books, not bad ones.

  134. Wrong thread.

    “Western civilization” is a Jewish-friendly substitute for the older term “Christendom.”

    Brilliant.

  135. @Dumbo

    ‘I guess we must conclude that Europeans/Christians are antisemitic, unless they create something nice, then they are “Judeo-Christian”.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesia_and_Synagoga…&#8217;

    It’s interesting to reflect that the statues of Ecclesia and Synagoga turned out to be pretty accurate.

    Orthodox Judaism turned into an intellectual dead-end, producing nothing but pedantic sterilities. Thousands of yeshivas toiling on three continents for two millennia gave us…nothing. Like the statue, Judaism is blind.

    On the other hand, while the Church did lose control of it all, Christian theology led right into the greatest and most dynamic civilization man has ever seen.

    • Replies: @International Jew
    , @Jack D
  136. Drogger says:

    As they should. It’ll just be one more thing that will get corrected.

  137. utu says:
    @syonredux

    It goes earlier and deeper.

    “…the basis of the Old Testament text in the Orthodox tradition is the Septuagint, a Greek translation by the “seventy interpreters” made in the third to second centuries BCE for the Alexandrian Hebrews and the Jewish diaspora. The authority of the Septuagint is based on three factors. First of all, though the Greek text is not the original language of the Old Testament books, the Septuagint does reflect the state of the original text as it would have been found in the third to second centuries BCE, while the current Hebrew text of the Bible, which is called the “Masoretic,” was edited up until the eighth century CE. ”

    “This is well after the Septuagint was translated (3rd century before Christ), the Peshitta (1st and 2nd Centuries A.D.), or the Latin Vulgate (4th Century A.D.). According to Christian tradition, the non-Christian Jews began making changes in the Old Testament text to undercut the Christian use of Old Testament prophecies concerning the coming of Christ. In any case, the Hebrew Text that we now have was preserved outside the Church. The Septuagint and Peshitta texts were preserved within the Church, and so the Church believes that the text of the Old Testament was been authoritatively preserved in these textual traditions.”

    “Furthermore, it is clear that the text that Christ and the Apostles used most closely matches the Septuagint rather than the Masoretic text.”

    “Also, there are several sections of the Hebrew text that are simply unreadable without keeping one eye on the Hebrew text and one eye on the Septuagint. For example, if you look at the footnotes for the book of Habbakuk in the NRSV there are 5 places in which it states that the Hebrew text is uncertain, and 3 times in which they state that they are simply translating from the Septuagint, Peshitta, and/or the Vulgate, because the Hebrew text is so unclear.”
    http://orthochristian.com/81224.html

    • Replies: @TED
  138. anon[385] • Disclaimer says:

    2 Churches blown up in Sri Lanka.
    Hundreds killed, Guardian reports Mainly Buddhist Sri Lanka only 6% Christian. https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2019/apr/21/sri-lanka-explosions-dozens-killed-and-hundreds-injured-in-church-and-hotel-blasts

    • Agree: jim jones
    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  139. Lot says:
    @Bubba

    If someone was going to invent a prophet, would they have had him first marry an old rich widow, then a 6 year old girl?

    • Replies: @Lot
    , @nebulafox
  140. Pericles says:
    @Ibound1

    He must have meant Judeo-Christian.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
  141. Pericles says:
    @Random Smartaleck

    In a little while, they can reveal the true purpose of the renovated Notre Dame: a holocaust museum.

  142. Lot says:
    @Lot

    Also, the two factions claimed legitimacy via Mo’s cousin/son in law versus father in law. If he were fictional the obvious claim would be through his son.

  143. Anon[387] • Disclaimer says:

    At this point who cares. The spirit of the church is all but dead. If the spirit is there they will build a new church. A humble church in the village surrounded by waves of wheat would be more full of life than some status-obsessed city dweller church. We need to get rid of everything, all technology, except for laptops, get rid of all the immigrants, and start over. The Western people need to be humbled 100 times before they can even hope to rebuild anything.

  144. If “Western Civilization” is a euphemism for Christendom, where does that leave the ancient Greeks and pre-Constantine Rome?

  145. Pericles says:
    @L Woods

    Imma need you to step aside and give up your cushy job for strong woke POC. And make it quick, loser. Whatchu waiting for?

  146. @Colin Wright

    Christian theology led right into the greatest and most dynamic civilization man has ever seen.

    Name a medieval Christian theologian, and tell us what ideas he had that “led right into the greatest and most dynamic civilization man has ever seen.”

    This’ll be a learning experience for me as I’ve been under the impression that Europe’s rebirth (or renaissance as the French would put it) began only once Europeans started freeing themselves from the Church’s grip.

  147. Jack D says:
    @Colin Wright

    Synagoga is blind because she can’t see that Jesus is really the Messiah. I wouldn’t call that “accurate” – it’s not (nor is it meant to be) an objective take on the situation (and neither is yours).

    The Catholic Church OTOH is a reactionary and corrupt institution – the Industrial and Scientific Revolutions take place mainly in places that escaped the grip of Ecclesia.

  148. nebulafox says:
    @Lot

    The tricky thing about Muhammad is that all the biographies and hadiths made about him date from at least a couple of centuries after his death. In many hadiths, he’ll be found giving answers to questions that just didn’t exist in his time, for example, often complete with tellingly Umayyad or Abbassid-era political coloration. Other times, he’ll flat out contradict the Qu’ran itself. In general, he’s made into the exemplar of the ideal human being, down to his appearance. He’s even portrayed as performing miracles. This is all in stark contrast to the Qu’ran (which, uniquely, does seem to indeed date from Muhammad’s time). It is far more interested in asserting the Prophet’s purely mortal character, on the rare occasion that it bothers to delve into him at all: the book is pretty clear that he doesn’t need to perform miracles, being only God’s “Warner”. Interestingly enough, though, at one point in the Qu’ran, Jesus is portrayed as breathing life into clay birds, which was probably passed down from the rejected Gospel of Thomas.

    Anyway, whatever the biographers of the ninth century knew would have known, apart from the Qu’ran, would have been what was passed down via the oral tradition that was so prominent in desert culture. This doesn’t necessarily make it wholly wrong-it is hard to imagine the Arab bards making things up out of whole cloth, given the world-shaking significance of the conquests-but inevitably produces reliability issues.

    I’m not saying Muhammad didn’t engage in sex slavery or other behaviors that would be considered highly immoral today, leading to… a *lot* of cognitive dissonance from Muslims who are decent people, but have been indoctrinated from birth to believe that Muhammad was the ideal human being. Given the culture of 7th Century Arabia, it’d be more shocking if he didn’t. The Qu’ran is evidence enough that Muhammad engaged in what we’d recognize as war crimes and had standards of what was “good” that were hallmarks… well, late antiquity, not the 21st Century. With that said, it is really hard to establish anything concrete about the man or what he believed outside of the Qu’ran, due to the hagiographic makeovers that later Muslim scholars gave him.

    (Not does this behavior make him particularly noteworthy in pre-modern cultures. See the Iliad or the Old Testament for what things were like during even more primitive time periods with even more “blue and orange morality”, by today’s standards. By the time Jesus and Muhammad came around, civilization had developed to the point where was a rudimentary notion of ethics and human rights that we’d recognize, albeit in a highly primitive form. This is wholly absent in the pre-Greco/Persian world: guys like King David or Agamemnon just operated according to a completely foreign, tribal calculus.)

  149. nebulafox says:
    @Pericles

    That’s a neocon-ism right there. I’d expect the denizens of iSteve to know better.

    • Replies: @Pericles
  150. @Ibound1

    Churchill also wanted to run in the 1951 election on a platform of (verbatim) ‘Keep England white’

  151. @Aspiring Urban Planner

    Looks like Paddy’s wigwam in Liverpool.

    I’m an aficionado of this place, myself,

  152. @CCZ

    The comments by the atheists remind me of the following definition: Atheist: n, One who does not believe in God, but is still holier than thou.

  153. @Anon

    Laptops are the best symbol of What Is Wrong. Burn them first.

  154. Jason Liu says:

    Wow it’s almost like she’s motivated entirely by butthurt resentment.

    This is why you need to purge academia of egalitarians every decade or so, so they don’t rewrite history. None of this bellyaching on the internet does anything. Don’t be one of those clods who never went to college and shout at the TV about Muslims or something all day. Academics are the ones doing the most damage in the long run. Pressure your politicians today.

  155. @Bubba

    Re: Did Mohammed exist?

    Mohammed was probably a fictitious character. Just like Moses.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    , @Jack D
    , @Eagle Eye
  156. @International Jew

    The universities came out of the Church’s scholasticism. Thomas Aquinas would be the name to research.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
  157. @Cagey Beast

    Erika Harlitz-Kern is Swedish, and has her degrees, including her Ph.D, from the University of Gothenburg. She appears to have moved to America in the last decade. Perhaps she married a Jewish guy.

    • Agree: Cagey Beast
  158. SFG says:
    @Cagey Beast

    I’d disagree. There is a *yuge* reservoir of discontent if you read comments on any Internet site that haven’t been wiped clean yet. A lot of white guys are sick of being marginalized by ‘woke’ PC crap, particularly in the cultural arenas where the media is quite powerful.

    Now they may not all want to sign up to be Nazis, but I remember most alt-right personages on Twitter before they started killing their accounts used to have about 30-60K followers.

    I’d be willing to bet appealing to white males is going to be a huge part of any future GOP candidate, particularly if someone like Kamala or Gillibrand gets the nomination. Bernie or Biden, ironically, despite their ideological distance, would slow this down a bit.

    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    , @anon
  159. wiseguy says:

    Umm…if “Medieval Europe was a crossroads of global influence, not a mythical all-white past”, shouldn’t we be celebrating this multicultural utopia by rebuilding Notre Dame in the medieval Gothic style?

  160. @Steve Sailer

    Stafford Cripps was a highly talented and versatile upper class Brit. He was part of Churchill’s war cabinet, was the highest paid lawyer in Britain at one point in his career, but was also a rare non-scientist Fellow of the Royal Society.

  161. Medieval Europe was a crossroads of global influence, not a mythical all-white past. The new Notre Dame should reflect that.

    How about: Ancient Israel was a crossroads of global influence, not a mythical all-Jewish past. The new Wailing Wall should reflect that.

    Oh, it’s NOT who you are ?

    • Replies: @Jack D
    , @Svigor
  162. @Steve Sailer

    That seems rather to his point. The British Empire was Globalism 1.0. Not that we should be unaware, just not unduly deferent.

    • Agree: Mr. Anon
  163. @Reg Cæsar

    The angle of the camera and the distorted looking perspective effect of wide angle lens make it look like that. Bill Gates paid for that, and it is actually a pretty nice looking building.

    In this age of unlimited license for passing costs onto students in the form of tuition increases, the Gates building looked so nice that Cornell spent lots of money upgrading the facades of the dull 1950s buildings near it.

  164. @Dumbo

    Judeo-Christian is actually an oxymoron going both the Talmud and the New Testament books of Galatians as well as Revelation 2:9 and 3:9 which talk about the ‘Synagogue of Satan’.

    Jewish anti-Christian hate is clearly manifest in Hollywood’s war on Christmas plus movies like The Last Temptation of Christ which was produced by Cineplex Odeon Films which at the time was run by Garth Drabinsky and Nathan Taylor under the watch of media mogul Lew Wasserman. It starred Harvey Keitel, Barbara Hershey (Barbara Lyn Herzstein), Irvin Kershner (Isadore Kershner), Alan Rosenberg, Nehemiah Persoff, Verna Bloom, Andre Gregory, and John Lurie along with degenerates Willem Dafoe, David Bowie plus director Martin Scorsese.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  165. @Anonymous

    Christianity is fundamentally universalistic and it certainly can’t fix IQ.

  166. @Anon

    You should check out Luke Smith’s channel on YouTube. You’d get a kick out of him. I do.

  167. nebulafox says:
    @Cagey Beast

    Aquinas injected some much needed Aristotle into a gloomy Augustinian world.

    • Agree: utu
    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
  168. TWS says:
    @syonredux

    Everybody has an idea of the original state. Lefty environmentalists place it sometime between Columbus and the 18th century. The hubris is amazing as if nature had a simple start date.

  169. @Kolya Krassotkin

    Mohammed was probably a fictitious character. Just like Moses.

    And Socrates?

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
  170. @Jack D

    … the Industrial and Scientific Revolutions take place mainly in places that escaped the grip of Ecclesia.

    Well that’s one way of looking at things. It’s the view of history that has almost entirely smothered every other way to be western. Using the dead weight of mass media, mass education, state power, activist judges, bullying journalists and the wealth of the tax exempt foundations (set up with the wealth of Nonconformist robber barons) this view of the West has achieved full spectrum dominance in the Anglosphere.

    The H.G. Wells gang, the “men without chests”, as C.S. Lewis called them, have won out entirely. The Fabian Society types (along with people like Jules Ferry on the continent) got to shatter our world “to bits – and then Remould it nearer to the heart’s desire”*.

    At the same moment in history, East European Jews began arriving on steamships. Their children and grandchildren took to the project with a glee and vigour that must have delighted their new Anglo-American patrons.

    Anyway, that’s how we ended up with Sarah Jeong taunting Whitey from the pages of the NYT and why a silly Swedish girl gets rewarded for being a little Pol Pot in yoga pants. There’s apparently no “off” switch on this steamroller Yankee Judea has built to run over the rest of us, again and again.

    * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_Window

  171. @Anonymous

    So long as they are OLD history books. The new ones have been cucked.

    As were Shakespeare’s sources. This is hardly a new phenomenon!

    History is cucked by the winners.

  172. Pericles says:
    @nebulafox

    I mean, we all pray to Judeo-Christ, don’t we? Except for atheists, muslims, wiccans, jews, and some others, of course, and those are perfectly valid viewpoints.

  173. @SFG

    There is a *yuge* reservoir of discontent …. A lot of white guys are sick of being marginalized by ‘woke’ PC crap …

    Oh I agree, it’s just that the Alt-Right itself has either flamed out (Chris Cantwell, etc) or settled into making sodomy jokes to their friends behind a paywall.

    Now they may not all want to sign up to be Nazis …

    That’s why the Alt-Right’s endless Nazi fan dance gets so tiresome. “Are we Nazis or aren’t we? Giggle. giggle! They’re just memes man, relax! We want to gas them all …. in Minecraft! Giggle, LOL!” So frigging self-defeating and stale.

  174. @nebulafox

    Yes but scholasticism also ended up giving western Christianity a quibbling and lawyerly character that eastern Christianity seems to lack, as far as I can tell.

    • Replies: @Anon
  175. Mr. Anon says:
    @OMG Seriously

    Assuming the comment about Mary Queen of Scots was not satire… you’re an idiot. The movie isn’t factual. It’s stylized. The multi ethnic cast was an impressionistic choice.

    So was casting Paul Muni in The Good Earth or Peter Lorre as Mr. Moto also an “impressionistic choice”?

    There were no Asian or black Scottish nobility. Then or ever.

    And yet, after exposure to the propaganda that modern media is, lots of people will come to believe that to have been the case. And that clearly is the intent of it.

    Perhaps you are the idiot here.

  176. Mr. Anon says:
    @istevefan

    I have noticed that our bettors like to use a straw man with our side by suggesting we are dumb rubes who think Europe was/is one giant White,homogeneous society. What is not mentioned though is that the real dummies are they.

    For it is our bettors who tell us that Europe needs diversity. They are the ones telling us that Europe is too White, and that it is a homogeneous White society that needs to be ‘enriched’. So by their words and actions, our bettors are demonstrating that they are the ones who believe Europe is a White, homogeneous society.

    Good point.

  177. Ibound1 says:
    @eah

    It will be replaced by “the global civilization” or something else as meaningless. No Christian civilization, no Christendom, no West, no even Judeo-Christian. Just the “global civilization” which shall fully incorporate the wonders Islam. And no pride shall be allowed in the accomplishments of your ancestors, only shame.

    • Replies: @eah
  178. Mr. Anon says:
    @International Jew

    Name a medieval Christian theologian, and tell us what ideas he had that “led right into the greatest and most dynamic civilization man has ever seen.”

    Roger Bacon

    In any event, he said Christian theology, not specifically Church theology. Isaac Newton became rather steeped in Christian theology himself later in life.

  179. @nebulafox

    There are many great goals that a pluralist society could honor and pursue: toleration, freedom, justice, prosperity, science, health, security, peace, to name a few. To the extent that those are realized, they are great achievements.

    But, diversity? As the supreme value? Why?

    It exists only as a slogan. As far as I know, there is no sustained philosophical defense of diversity as a value worthy of coercive imposition on an unwilling population.

  180. Mr. Anon says:
    @Jack D

    The Catholic Church OTOH is a reactionary and corrupt institution – the Industrial and Scientific Revolutions take place mainly in places that escaped the grip of Ecclesia.

    No place in Europe escaped the grip of Christian belief, including the parts where the Scientific and Industrial Revolutions began. Anyway, the notion that Catholic areas were all beknighted realms of darkness is mostly English propaganda anyway. France, Southern Germany and Austria, Bohemia – all were Catholic and all just about as advanced as England or Holland.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Desiderius
  181. Kyle says:

    I always assumed that the term western civilization stemmed from the western Roman Empire. Did the romans refer to themselves as western in relation to the byzantines? One of you masters of the universe should enlighten me. According to Ms. Harlitz Kern the term western originated from 19th century racists to differentiate themselves from other races because they were so racist. She has a PhD and I’m uneducated so I’ll need to drop my assumptions.

  182. anon[997] • Disclaimer says:
    @Hypnotoad666

    “In fact, everyone has always understood the Middle Ages to be the backward state of affairs from which modern Western Civilization arose via the Renaisance, the Reformation, the Enlightenment, and the Industrial and Scientific Revolutions.”

    Talk about “ignorance and stupidity.” Leaving aside any number of Catholic “intellectuals” there’s the Traditionalists (Guenon, Evola, Coomaraswamy, etc.) and their modern acolytes (John Tavener, eg. and lots of “alt-right” types) who believe exactly that “the Middle Ages stand out as the ideal time period when Europe was a …society united in a homogenous Christian culture led by one single Christian institution . . .” The only diff. is that the alt-right would add “white”.

    • Replies: @Hypnotoad666
  183. anon[958] • Disclaimer says:
    @SFG

    There is a *yuge* reservoir of discontent if you read comments on any Internet site that haven’t been wiped clean yet. A lot of white guys are sick of being marginalized by ‘woke’ PC crap, particularly in the cultural arenas where the media is quite powerful.

    agree

    Now they may not all want to sign up to be Nazis, but I remember most alt-right personages on Twitter before they started killing their accounts used to have about 30-60K followers.

    there’s no upside to proclaiming oneself a nazi when the main problem to start is securing the border and deporting the illegals

    I’d be willing to bet appealing to white males is going to be a huge part of any future GOP candidate…

    i doubt this

  184. J.Ross says: • Website

    In fact, what is considered to be European culture, in the past and today, is an amalgamation of impulses from all over the world.

    So you lose your identity if you are ever influenced in the most abstract ways by anybody else? Is this seriously what she’s arguing?

  185. J.Ross says: • Website
    @International Jew

    Good catch, I was blinded by “the creation of history as a topic of study.”

  186. TED says:
    @utu

    Just curious as to when all this B.C.E. and C.E. rubbish was started, and by whom? Suddenly it’s everywhere. Like Venus emerging full-grown from the brow of Zeus. Seems to be just another slagging of Christians.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  187. The motivation for encouraging the multicultural Medieval myth is largely from countless cosplaying LARPers who can’t allow themselves to acknowledge that their playtime is based on a society that was 99%+ homogeneous, ruled by brutal “divine right” feudal kingship, and healthily xenophobic — because strangers (back then, you know) were far more likely to rape and pillage than “enrich” them.

    On the flip side, (hysterically overestimated numbers of) the alt-right are just as likely to oppose Christianity, probably as some kind of Jewish plot, and urge a bastardized study of primitive Teutonic paganism. Unsurprisingly, they generally come from the same generations as the New Age lefties who embrace a pagan, Satanic, or native religious revival without all the nasty little details of slaughter, sacrifice and slavery given too much attention.

    All this really comes down to is the kids thumbing their noses at things the old folks did. If I was a self-hating arrested adolescent with an absentee father and a mentally ill mother in a culture that deifies superficial youthful rebellion, I’d probably feel compelled to deconstruct history too. Especially when everyone else is doing it; nothing beats being a brave loner rebel with full social and political support on your side.

  188. Jack D says:
    @Jenner Ickham Errican

    Yes, that’s me. You left off Rootless. Rootless Cosmopolitan Jack D. I have no Narod, no Heimat. I am cursed to wander the earth forever because I taunted Jesus on the Via Dolorosa – “Hey, speed it up there Jesus, I’m trying to get to my counting house so I can count my slave derived profits and you’re blockin’ the sidewalk.”

    BTW, the Soviet campaign against Rootless Cosmopolitans included a crusade in the state-controlled mass media to expose literary pseudonyms of Jewish writers by putting their real names in parentheses in order to reveal to the public that they were ethnic Jews. Does any of this sound familiar?

    I kinda like the pre-1750 spire, complete with cross. It looks like a church steeple and not an antenna. I wouldn’t mind if they did it out of some new techy material – definitely not wood and lead.

    I find the idea that you should build something ugly just to spite your enemies to be infantile and dumb, but the Left today seems to be just that. The whole point of modern art/architecture seem to be to épater le bourgeois/ get back at their daddies who didn’t love them enough.

    • Agree: Logan
  189. Svigor says:

    a Modern Roof the Alt-Right Will Hate”

    Not to counter-signal my comrades, but I think a giant, magen-david-sporting yarmulke roof for Notre Dame would be the bee’s knees.

    Or maybe a big happy merchant silhouette? Not sure how to do that without lots of leaks, though.

    But on a serious note, I don’t think the author really knows how this works. Stuff we hate just fuels the fire and makes it spread…

  190. Jack D says:
    @Kolya Krassotkin

    Moses is lost in the mists of history so he may or may not have existed but Mohammed lived only 1400 years ago (right around the time of King Arthur) so it is highly likely that he was a real person (Jesus is somewhere in between, both in time and in the level of certainty of his existence). What Moses, Jesus, Arthur and Mohammed all share is that, whether they were real or not, a lot of baggage was hung on them after their deaths (and the chronicles that have come down to us were mostly written many decades if not centuries later, when there were no living witnesses) so that many elements of their legends (especially but not only the one which involve supernatural events) are almost certainly not true in a factual (as opposed to a faith-based) sense.

    • Replies: @El Dato
  191. Svigor says:

    While Notre Dame was burning, conspiracy theories began to surface, and declarations were made of the fire portending the end of Western civilization and its Judeo-Christian values. Instead, what was happening was the destruction of a medieval past that has, in all honesty, never existed.

    Wait, whut?

    1. Shep Smith & Neil Cavuto were obviously under orders to shut down any speculation that the ND fire was arson or terrorism, because they both did so while their guests were in the middle of their first sentences in that direction. While ND burned in the background.

    That’s when the “conspiracy theories” began to “surface” in earnest, and rightly so. Fox News was pretty much deliberately fomenting them.

    2. “Judeo-Christian values”? When did the author stop talking about the alt-right, and start talking about Jews and Shabbos Goyim? “Judeo-Christian” is their term. Alt-righters wouldn’t be caught dead.

  192. LondonBob says:

    Not much of a fan of Norman Foster, and even less so of modern architecture but I think a glass roof and spire would be good.

    • Replies: @Svigor
    , @Jack D
    , @PiltdownMan
  193. black and Chinese members of the Scottish aristocracy in the 16th Century

    I didn’t realize until I saw “Outlaw King”, about Robert the Bruce in the 14th Century (See “Braveheart”) that there were black as coal African tradesmen in Scotland at the time. Good to know that in as little as 200 years they made it to the peerage.

  194. Jack D says:
    @Verymuchalive

    They’re building a new Wailing Wall? Who knew? I’d prefer a whole new Temple but first they have to get rid of the Dome of the Rock. If the new Temple gets built, I think it should indeed reflect where the Jews have spent the last 2,000 years and not just look like the one that Herod built (which in turn was different (more Roman influenced) than the Persian influenced Temple that it replaced).

    Modern architecture in Israel looks like modern architecture everywhere else (which is to say shitty). The idea that the Jews have some kind of massive double standard where they prescribe junk food to the goyim but serve filet mignon to their brothers in Israel (a cut that is not usually kosher BTW since it comes from the hind quarter) is idiotic but it seems to be an endlessly repeated meme here. The Left in Israel espouses the same Cultural Marxist crap as the Left everywhere else. Due to an accident of demography (some people did something in Europe in the ’40s) there aren’t enough of them to run the show in Israel anymore but otherwise they would be even worse (more socialist, as they were originally) than American Jews.

  195. They erase our past to erase our future.

  196. El Dato says:
    @Jack D

    This assessment strikes me as accurate!

  197. Roger says:

    It is funny how these articles refuse to admit that Western Civilization is a distinct thing, and yet they will credit “civilizations surrounding the Indian Ocean”.

    The article does imply that the “Judeo-Christian values” were mainly Christian values, and that is correct.

  198. Svigor says:
    @Jack D

    I find the idea that you should build something ugly just to spite your enemies to be infantile and dumb, but the Left today seems to be just that[sic].

    E.g.,

    https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=holocaust+museum
    https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=holocaust+memorial

    Not sure where to look for the beautiful monuments from the Jewish right…

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
  199. Svigor says:
    @Jack D

    From what I understand, if they got a Wailing Wall that was actually from the Jewish Temple, it’d be the first; apparently the existing one is part of a Crusader castle. Or maybe it was Roman. Either way…

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
  200. Svigor says:
    @Verymuchalive

    Oh, it’s NOT who you are ?

    Heh, scroll up. The current Wailing Wall doesn’t reflect who they are, either.

  201. guest says:

    How many actual far rightists could possibly model their vision on Medieval times? Even “neoreactionaries” tend to be Jacobites, which would make them Baroque, not Medieval.

    Tradionalist Catholics maybe. But they’re not generally explicit defenders of feudalism, chivalry, etc.

  202. Valentino says:
    @Cagey Beast

    Yeah, on the other hand, a personality like Jordan Peterson is not so discussed. The media fear to be humiliated.

    • Replies: @Svigor
  203. @Jack D

    Another typical, evasive reply from you. You do not see Jewish double standards in this and many other matters, and you never will.

  204. Valentino says:
    @Jack D

    Well in fact Israel is really a multicultural place. Even with the Palestinians apartheid, there are a lot of Arabs in the Israeli territory. And the same about the Jews. Half of Israeli Jewish population is non- Ashkenazi, a nightmare for the original Zionist dream of a supremacist Ashkenazi heaven.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  205. anon[166] • Disclaimer says:

    Instead, what was happening was the destruction of a medieval past that has, in all honesty, never existed.

    China’s past never existed – they were communicating with Marco Polo. So the Forbidden City should be replaced with a replica of Notre Dame
    Muslim history never existed – they were communicating with Europeans. So we should build a replica of Notre Dame at Mecca.
    Inda never existed – they were communicating with Europe. So we should build a replica of Notre Dame in Dehli
    Sub-Saharan Africa never existed – they were communicating with Europeans. So we should build replicas of Notre Dame where their huts used to be (actually not a bad idea).

  206. Erika Harlitz-Kern’s op-ed is fueled by hatred as noted in the title. Motivations of love and building something constructive are superior to hurting those that you dislike.

    The Notre Dame is a historical monument, it’s not supposed to be “modern” or champion her present-day political objectives or hurt the political tribe that she resents.

    I closely know lots of regular black people and other non-white people that find celebrating culture of the past such as Notre Dame totally fine. It’s notable that the author spewing intense venom here is completely white.

  207. @Reg Cæsar

    “I thought it was a pissoir.”

    As far as the Algerians are concerned, it is.

  208. 36 ulster says:

    (((Erika)))….(((Harlitz)))….(((-)))…..(((Kern))).

  209. Logan says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    I think you are referring to the Baha’i month, which has 19 days, not its week, which, not very originally, has seven.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  210. Logan says:
    @nebulafox

    The Arab/Muslim explosion was remarkably startling. Nothing drastic had emerged from the Arabian Peninsula in well over a thousand years, as compared to the multiple world-changing eruptions from the northern steppe.

    Then, suddenly and without warning, all Hell came boiling out of Arabia. Whereupon it very quickly fell back into inconsequentiality and became irrelevant in world history till Europeans discovered oil and, true to their own ideology, allowed the locals to claim the wealth they had found for them.

    Why it happened was most likely their taking advantage of an opportunity. The Sassanid and Byzantine Empires had been fighting each other for many centuries and were just finishing up the last round, which left both utterly exhausted. There is also increasing evidence that both had also been recently devastated by the world’s first recorded outbreak of plague, much more affected by it than previously thought. New evidence indicates probable death tolls in the later Black Death outbreak of up to 60%, with it being reasonable to assume similar death rate in the Justinian Plague.

  211. Eagle Eye says:
    @Kolya Krassotkin

    Mohammed was probably a fictitious character. Just like Moses.

    This annoying academic fashion for declaring most ancient history mere “myths” without even a kernel of truth started in the early 1800s and was in full swing before WW I.

    Even in China, it became fashionable among young, French-influenced intellectuels to make ostentatious declarations that the entire Xia dynasty (until about 1500 BCE) mentioned in ancient histories was a mere myth. Similar “mythicism” remains fashionable in parts of the Western academy.

  212. Logan says:
    @SFG

    From 1400 to 1500 there were four great centers of civilization: Europe, Islam, India, China.

    They were all pretty equal in civilizational and military advancement, as they had been for centuries, except that Europe was just catching up from most of a millenium well behind the rest.

    Two centuries later Europe was so far ahead of the rest it wasn’t even funny, with the gap continuing to grow till well into the 20th.

    It’s not so much that the others went backwards, it’s that Europe, and European offshoots, shot ahead at spectacular and utterly unprecedented speed.

    1400 China or the Ottoman Empire was not much advanced over the Rome of Augustus or Han China. A couple of centuries later the world was utterly changed.

  213. Anon[192] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D

    Industrial Revolution

    Fair enough. Also in countries that are islands.

    Scientific Revolution

    ???

  214. anon[144] • Disclaimer says:
    @Hypnotoad666

    That’s getting middle-ages on her ass.

    But of course Progressives do want to progress all the way back to a medieval society. Elites with a monopoly on violence courted by ass kissers and worshipped by an amorphous mass of bootlickers. But a new and improved medievalism with Asian and Somali warlords in the mix.

  215. res says:

    Western civilization is a term that grew out of the creation of history as a topic of study at the universities in England, Germany, and France in the 19th century.

    That is just ignorant. Even Wikipedia is more sensible: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture

    The concept of a “West” dates back to the Roman Empire, where there was a cultural divide between the Greek East and Latin West, a divide that later continued in Medieval Europe between the Catholic “Latin” West and the Orthodox “Greek” East.

    Western culture continued to develop with the Christianisation of Europe during the Middle Ages, the reforms triggered by the Renaissance of the 12th century and 13th century under the influence of the Islamic world via Spain and Sicily (including the transfer of technology from the East, and Latin translations of Arabic texts on science and philosophy),[30][31][32] and the Italian Renaissance as Greek scholars fleeing the fall of the Byzantine Empire brought classical traditions and philosophy.[33]

  216. @The Alarmist

    Any minute now, CRIF (which is the French equivalent of the ADL) will generously offer to foot the bill for a new spire, which will honor the under-appreciated bakers of La Belle France. This new structure will take the shape of a dazzling gilt croissant.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  217. @Jack D

    Jack,

    In case you haven’t noticed, a huge percentage of American Jews are both Zionist and for open borders for the goyim. The adl is a pretty good example of this behavior.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
  218. @Valentino

    Half of Israeli Jewish population is non- Ashkenazi

    …and thus hold few illusions about Islam or Araby. That sort of mush is for the Eurofools and their American cousins:

  219. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @TED

    Jewish scholars have used it for a long time now. It wasn’t controversial until recently.
    But it flagged the writers as Jewish very conveniently and still does so it’s not in our interests to dissuade it.

    Like deleting vowels from the name of the D__ty (G-d, L-rd, YHVH/YHWH, et al. )

  220. @Dumbo

    The Old Testament is Jewish. The New Testament is Christian. Thus, the Holy Bible is Judeo-Christian.

    Why be a 2000-year-old faith when you can be a 6000-year-old one?

  221. Mr. Anon says:
    @Bigdicknick1

    He’s noticed. He just doesn’t want you to.

  222. I just snagged a copy of Allan Temko’s 1955 history of Notre Dame that the bookstore owner didn’t realize she had. (She did have a recent backlog of orders for Victor Hugo, though.)

    Here is the opening of Temko’s 1979 review of San Francisco’s Pier 39, for which he got sued, and a mayor and future Senatrix at the dedication ceremony:

    Corn. Kitsch. Schlock. Honky-tonk. Dreck. Schmaltz. Merde.of

    • Replies: @Bubba
  223. @Jack D

    The Catholic Church OTOH is a reactionary and corrupt institution – the Industrial and Scientific Revolutions take place mainly in places that escaped the grip of Ecclesia.

    Uh, if it weren’t for an Italian in the Papal States, this Industrial Revolution would have taken place under the Julian calendar. As it was, it arrived twelve days late.

    Readers of an HBD site should remind themselves that the genetics revolution itself began in a monastery. Bishop Ussher wasn’t involved.

  224. @anon

    Lots of Hindus and Mohammedans on Ceylon, too. Not the best advertisement for religious diversity.

  225. @Buck Ransom

    the under-appreciated bakers of La Belle France

    Can they still turn down gay wedding business?

  226. Barack Obama’s library is facing push back in Chicago, what better re-purpose of the Notre Dame shell than as the Barack O library? Propose it and let the left fumble around that thought for a bit.

  227. Anon[192] • Disclaimer says:
    @Cagey Beast

    Eastern Christianity had a quibbling spirit before the West had much of one, but since the schism we’ve changed places.

  228. Anon[192] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mr. Anon

    The industrial revolution was pretty specifically UK, though, at the start.

  229. Like deleting vowels from the name of the D__ty

    There are no vowels in Hebrew or Arabic, which is why both sound like spitting and coughing. Abjad!

    It’s also why the Info-European Persian and Urdu are almost as splattered as Vietnamese:


    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
  230. @Jack D

    Thanks for your clarification about the spire. Calling Viollet-le-Duc’s creation a “monstrosity” seems rather hostile to the medieval aesthetic. I like me some trefoils, quatrefoils, gargoyles and excelsior spikes on Gothic juggernauts. “Doing something with glass” is visually anachronistic, unlike Viollet-le-Duc’s work (compare the two spires: his is in the same idiom, only more grand).

    Whether intentional or not, coming from whites or non-whites: Calling for a modern redesign is subversive and suspect. In addition to Notre-Dame, there is a resentful push to ‘remake’ all sorts of traditional white heritage cultural markers into something else.

    • Replies: @Buck Ransom
    , @Dave Pinsen
  231. @Mr. Anon

    The seminal work on that question:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protestant_Ethic_and_the_Spirit_of_Capitalism

    As you note, since somewhat refuted/less influential

  232. @Desiderius

    The wiki’s actually more comprehensive. Spectacularly wide range of insight. Doctor of Theology, the queen of the sciences.

  233. MBlanc46 says:
    @Buzz Mohawk

    The “big area in front”: The parvis.

    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    , @Buzz Mohawk
  234. Bubba says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    Didn’t realize that DiFi was actually a pretty woman before she was embalmed as a Senator!

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    , @Pericles
  235. @Jenner Ickham Errican

    Maybe we can get Philippe Starck to do a trendy redesign of Anne Frank’s attic.

  236. @Reg Cæsar

    Nastaliq Persian/Urdu script has resulted in some very pretty, highly stylized calligraphy in manuscripts of poems, and in architectural decoration. The same is not true of Vietnamese.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  237. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Amerimutt Golem

    John Lurie is an odd duck. He was in the Lounge Lizards, a predecessor group of the later Jazz Passengers.

    John Lurie (born December 14, 1952) is an American musician, painter, actor, director, and producer. He co-founded The Lounge Lizards jazz ensemble, acted in 19 films, including Stranger than Paradise and Down by Law, composed and performed music for 20 television and film works, and produced, directed, and starred in the Fishing with John television series. In 1996 his soundtrack for Get Shorty was nominated for a Grammy Award, and his album The Legendary Marvin Pontiac: Greatest Hits has been praised by both critics and fellow musicians.

    Since 2000 Lurie has suffered from symptoms attributed to “chronic Lyme disease” and has focused his attention on painting.[1] His art has been shown in galleries and museums around the world. His primitivist painting Bear Surprise became an internet meme in Russia in 2006.

    The Lounge Lizards
    Main article: The Lounge Lizards

    In 1978 John formed The Lounge Lizards with his brother Evan Lurie; they were the only constant members in the band through numerous lineup changes.

    Robert Palmer of The New York Times described the band as “staking out new territory west of Mingus, east of Bernard Herrman.” While originally a somewhat satirical “fake jazz” combo spawned by the noisy No Wave music scene, the Lounge Lizards gradually became a showcase for Lurie’s increasingly sophisticated compositions. The band’s personnel included guitarists Arto Lindsay, Oren Bloedow, David Tronzo, and Marc Ribot; drummers Grant Calvin Weston and Billy Martin; bassists Erik Sanko and Tony Garnier; trumpeter Steven Bernstein; and saxophonists Roy Nathanson and Michael Blake. The band made music for 20 years.

  238. @PiltdownMan

    The Vietnamese are allowed to draw pictures.

    Also, they used Chinese writing until the French came.

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
  239. @Bubba

    But where does she conceal her pistol?

  240. Svigor says:
    @LondonBob

    A glass roof could work, if attention were paid to continuing the aesthetics of the flying buttresses into it. The roof depicted does not work. Neither does the glass & steel spire; other than an attenuated shadow, what is there to recommend it?

    • Replies: @LondonBob
  241. Svigor says:
    @Valentino

    Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro are both stuffed shirts who duck the alt-right and refuse to debate us.

    Because would lose.

    • Replies: @Valentino
  242. Svigor says:
    @Jack D

    The Left in Israel espouses the same Cultural Marxist crap as the Left everywhere else.

    “The left in Nazi Germany espoused the same crap as the left everywhere else.”

    “The libertarians in Soviet Russia…”

    Etc.

    See what I did there? Not difficult – a sharp 5th grader would.

    Actually, the left in Nazi Germany was probably much more powerful than the left in Israel today…

  243. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Svigor

    From what I understand, it’s a retaining wall for the Temple Mount, not a wall of the Temple itself, which was destroyed by the Romans the year 70. Where did you get your understanding that it was part of a Crusader castle, or built by Romans?

  244. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Svigor

    The Holocaust Museum was designed to look intentionally harsh, as befits its subject. I don’t know if there’s an aesthetically pleasing Holocaust memorial anywhere.

    That said, I can’t think of any beautiful monuments from the Jewish right either. Maybe there are some, but I’m not familiar with them. I mean, this monument to Menachem Begin looks like a rejected cover for the fourth Dune novel.

  245. Valentino says:
    @Svigor

    Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro are both stuffed shirts who duck the alt-right and refuse to debate us.

    Because would lose.

    Jordan Peterson has his priorities. His work against feminism and to open the consciousness about socio-economic hierarchies is well enough. We can’t have all we want, from significant intellectuals.

  246. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Jenner Ickham Errican

    Obviously, it’s up to the French what do with Notre Dame, but if I were Macron, instead of promising to rebuild it in 5 years, I would start a school, perhaps in an unused castle somewhere, train Frenchmen in medieval construction and craftsmanship, let them rebuild Notre Dame as it was. Let it take as long as it needs to. The reconstruction itself could be a living attraction in Paris, and an opportunity to reconnect with France’s heritage.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  247. train Frenchmen in medieval construction and craftsmanship

    Or you could program machines to do it all– data, blueprint, construction. Who needs people?

  248. eah says:
    @Ibound1

    “the global civilization”

    World IQ 82

    • LOL: Ibound1
  249. @Logan

    I think you are referring to the Baha’i month, which has 19 days, not its week, which, not very originally, has seven.

    Just ’cause they call it a month doesn’t mean it is. It has no connection to the moon.

  250. @anon

    Sorry anon, but nobody is advocating for medieval feudalism as an “ideal” model for society.

    If the obscurities you cite do so, then they are irrelevant to any serious discussion that has ever taken place.

    I do remember that the protagonist in Confederacy of Dunces was a monarchist. But that was supposed to be an example of his comic absurdity.

  251. @Reg Cæsar

    The Vietnamese are allowed to draw pictures.

    Persian and Mughal miniatures were a thing. As is modern Iranian art. All portray the human form.

    It’s the Peninsular Arabs who had issues with all that through their history, for the most part.

  252. LondonBob says:
    @Svigor

    Obviously it would have to be done in harmony with the existing structure, something Norman Foster wouldn’t do, as in the example he has provided, but the idea is sound.

  253. Pericles says:
    @Bubba

    She must have been #MeToo’d many a time. Then took up roaming the nighttime streets of San Francisco to suck the blood of the goyim.

  254. Jack D says:
    @LondonBob

    I’m not sure how the glass roof would work in conjunction with the interior vaulting of the Cathedral (most of which is still standing except for where the falling debris punched holes into it). I guess you could put some more stained glass up in the ceiling – letting too much daylight in would ruin the aesthetic of the Cathedral (and the ability to see the stained glass in the walls).

    Otherwise the glass roof would illuminate the attic. Maybe the attic space could be turned into something non-Ecclesiastical – the building is publicly owned and that space was never used before. The hard part would be getting people up there.

    Maybe instead of glass do solar panels so you can say that you are saving the planet?

    I think the glass spire would look great lit up at night.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  255. @MBlanc46

    The first time I saw the word “parvis” was when Marine Le Pen described herself as “une catholique de parvis”. She said in an interview:

    I’m absolutely a believer but I’m at little angry at the Church. So, I’m a Catholic de parvis. I certainly not the only one in France. I go to church for the big occasions: marriages, baptisms, Christmas and Easter. My children are baptized and they had first communion.”

    http://www.lavie.fr/hebdo/2011/3433/marine-le-pen-les-cures-devraient-rester-dans-leur-sacristie-15-06-2011-17717_231.php

  256. @Jack D

    And Israel would make a nice place to house the refugees of the world. Just think of the Olam y’all could Tikkun.

    You didn’t build that.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  257. Jack D says:
    @Desiderius

    Fine, let the Vatican buy the place back from the French state and spend the Church’s money on fixing it up and then no one will be able to tell them what to do. They could make a copy of the Christ the Redeemer statue from Rio and put that up on the roof.

    But the French government (who owns and maintains the building) is asking for contributions from the world and pitching the place as as world cultural treasure (which it is) so Joos (atheists, Protestants, Muslims, etc.) have as much right to chime in as anyone.

  258. @Reg Cæsar

    No, Socrates was real. After all, Wayne’s world referred to him.

  259. Anon[192] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D

    Good idea.

    Let’s nationalize all the synagogues in the US and see how much we can get out of B’nai Brith for them.

  260. Anon[192] • Disclaimer says:
    @CCZ

    As far as Mecca losing its distinctively Islamic character, ironically, the Saudis are actually doing okay at that, bit by bit.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_early_Islamic_heritage_sites_in_Saudi_Arabia

  261. @syonredux

    You didn’t know that Mohammed was sub-Saharan? Black liberation theologians, when they tend to dabble in history from time to time, have claimed Mo. Let’s not forget Genius Gates as well. After all, if St Augustine was black cause he can’t from Hippo, I mean, come on, Katherine, come on.

    Thought that “everyone” knew that Mo was black. And Babe Ruth too. What kind of school did one attend where they did not learn about the Prophet’s skin color?

    • Replies: @Valentino
  262. @Dtbb

    Or the warrior who battled at the thrill-a in Manila.

  263. @Jack D

    Unless you’re Taliban, when World Historical Works are damaged one attempts to faithfully restore them. What’s next, Groucho glasses on The Sphinx?

    Acting the schlemiel is not good for the Jews.

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
  264. @Jack D

    so Joos (atheists, Protestants, Muslims, etc.) have as much right to chime in as anyone

    The idiotic French government may be asking, but those who would like to see it changed would be wise to keep quiet—especially if they aren’t Français de souche Catholics. The change agents don’t have to be quiet of course, but if they are the types to lament “whirlwinds,” there is some cyclical cause-and-effect irony going on. Gauleiter Ganesh is watching.

  265. @Jack D

    Why wait until something is destroyed?

    The French government probably owns the Louvre too. Why don’t you tell us how that world cultural treasure ought to be modified to suit your whims?

    Notre Dame was a cultural treasure specifically because it was old and had continuity with the past. Generations passed, all seeing the same building and drawing inspiration from it. End that, and its cultural significance is over.

    Another way to look at it is, considering all the people dead and unborn who share something with us in order for it to be a “cultural treasure,” why should we, who live at the time of this fire only by accident, be priviledged over the others to change its design?

    When people, whether you or Macron, talk about redesigning a cultural treasure, what it really reveals is a lack of understanding about what that means.

    The Japanese of the 1950s understood, which is why they rebuilt the Golden Pavilion precisely as it had been. 10s of 1000s of tourists go to Kyoto each year and see the GP. Why? It’s an expression of an aesthetic specific to a time and place, and as the quintessence of that aesthetic has contributed to other art and culture through the ages. If the Japanese had rebuilt the GP with, eg, a fourth floor made of glass and steele, our ability to confront that aesthetic, that history, and to try to understand how others did as well, would be lost.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  266. @Desiderius

    I’m thinking some of Rembrandt’s self-portraits should have the faces painted over with geometric patterns to reflect the fact that the modern world includes Muslims opposed to representing the human form. I mean, that makes sense, right? If Rembrandts are world cultural treasures, what can that possibly mean except that they should democratically represent all the peoples of the world?

  267. Reality says:

    Can this article be more degenerate?

  268. Valentino says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Blacks are obsessed to find significant idols and a glorious past for themselves. For a long time, they said that the ancient Egyptians were black. But, now it’s clear with the new DNA sequencing technologies, that they were of Middle Eastern origin, without any sub-Saharan DNA. The modern Egyptians are more black, than the Ancient Egyptians.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
  269. Jack D says:
    @Chrisnonymous

    Funny you should mention the Louvre, because it was modified by a glass addition that was designed by a heathen and they didn’t even wait for it to burn down. Most people like Pei’s pyramid and it is considered to be a clever solution to the problem of providing a suitable entrance to the museum. I remember standing in the queue outside in the gray Parisian drizzle while watching the French people cut in line and blow Gauloise smoke in my face before the pavilion was built – it was not that pleasant.

    As has been discussed, when le Duc rebuilt the church in the 19th century he didn’t feel obligated to put it back exactly as it was before. So restoring it to the version that existed until last week would not really be “authentic” either.

  270. @Jack D

    the French people cut in line and blow Gauloise smoke in my face

    Quel dommage. Sounds like they were good judges of character.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  271. @MBlanc46

    I am poorly educated.

    At the flagship, “public ivy” university I attended, I satisfied whatever requirements there were to obtain the diploma on the wall here behind me in my office.

    I was busy working all kinds of jobs — not borrowing money — to support myself.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  272. “Macron should commission misanthropic Los Angeles starchitect Thom Mayne to redo Notre Dame in the manner of his CalTrans building so that the cathedral looks like a Thought Police Academy.”

    Ha!

    I always thought that building resembled a “Borg” Cube myself, same difference I suppose.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  273. @Dave Pinsen

    This Old House likes to promote schools like this that already exist in the states.

  274. @Buzz Mohawk

    I am poorly educated.

    cite needed

    • LOL: Buzz Mohawk
  275. @Jack D

    Notre Dame is four times as old the Louvre. It’s the difference between the timeless and the timely.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  276. @TroubleBaby

    Paris already has a new city created explicitly for just such innovation.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_D%C3%A9fense

  277. @International Jew

    IIRC, this guy

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diogenes_Allen

    made a persuasive case that medieval scholasticism gets a bad rap and in fact set the stage for all that followed (as well as accomplishing more than originally understood themselves). My sense is that legitimate revisionism has been heading his way since.

  278. AndrewR says:

    Jews seem genetically wired to provoke people into hating them.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  279. Jack D says:
    @Desiderius

    The spire that fell was newer than most of the Louvre.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    , @Chrisnonymous
  280. Jack D says:
    @Jenner Ickham Errican

    Nah, Parisians are equal opportunity assholes, like New Yorkers. They are rude to everyone. Once you go outside of Paris it gets better.

    • Agree: Desiderius
  281. During the Middle Ages, Europe communicated closely with Africa, Asia, and the Middle East using networks that were several thousand years old.

    They just hopped on one of there Dragons and made the trip.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
  282. @Jack D

    Nah, Parisians are equal opportunity assholes, like New Yorkers. They are rude to everyone.

    From center of Europe as part of the strongest power in the world during the time of the Sun King to secondary city in the Fourth Reich (aka the EU), now a 2nd rate power, is a big comedown. The greatness is history, but the attitudes spawned during Frogistan’s moment of triumph remains. In their defense, it’s not unique. The Chinese and the Indians also have their moments of present day megalomania based on long ago accomplishments.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  283. @Jack D

    Remind me not to leave any dead horses around you Jack. What we think doesn’t matter because the Europeans already have all this figured out, as one can see by the restorations of many of history’s greatest works of art over the past couple generations.

    They’ll do something similar with Notre Dame and not bother themselves much with prior efforts at restoration or cockamamie modernist, post-modernist, or corporate schemes. They created La Défense so philistines like you could go deface empty land instead of the greatest creations of mankind.

  284. @Johann Ricke

    Paris is a world-class accomplishment to this day and beyond.

  285. @Jack D

    Nah, Parisians are equal opportunity assholes

    Right, right. Looks like you got made. C’est la vie, mon ami.

  286. @Valentino

    And that’s just racist, caused by racists. Everyone knows that.

    Racism, racism. (say it five times fast, like “toy boat, toy boat”).

  287. @George Taylor

    Well, the Crusades qualify as “networks”, after all, pillaging, warfare, raping the local populace are tried and true tactics that are definitely several millennium old. Warfare is a way of direct communication, and the direct message it conveys (“surrender the city or it will be burned to the ground and not a soul alive left standing by the count of 1….2….thr—“) often proves to be quite effective.

  288. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @AndrewR

    It discourages assimilation and causes in-group loyalty.

    Over the centuries, many Jews quit being Jews and just left for the greener pastures of the surrounding peoples. The ones that did not are the ancestor’s of today’s Jewish population.

    Replace “Jewish” with “Amish”, “Mormon”, et al and that part still holds.

    But Jews are unusual as a group in many ways. So are Gypsies, but Gypsies are illiterate and often low IQ. Jews are quite literate and in the case of Ashkenazim quite high IQ.

  289. Obsidian says:

    I love the idea that the author of this article thinks that Mary Queen of Scots is a historically accurate depiction of people’s ethnic origins in 16th century Scotland. A number of characters depicted as being non-caucasian in the film were actually white, including Lord Thomas Randolph, who was not black, and lady-in-waiting Elizabeth Cavendish who was not actually Chinese. I have no reason to doubt that there were people of various ethnicities in Scotland at the time, but Mary Queen of Scots is not a documentary.
    Unfortunately, this personal attack proved the auther to be every bit as moronic as they accuse others of being.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  290. @Jack D

    Most people like Pei’s pyramid

    Most people like pop music too. So what?

    it is considered to be a clever solution

    By the same kind of people who now want a glass roof on ND, so so what?

    I remember standing in the queue outside in the gray Parisian drizzle while watching the French people cut in line and blow Gauloise smoke in my face before the pavilion was built – it was not that pleasant.

    Ah, yes, I see. You have a personal grudge against the pre-modified Louvre, so it was okay to deface it.

    As has been discussed, when le Duc rebuilt the church in the 19th century he didn’t feel obligated to put it back exactly as it was before. So restoring it to the version that existed until last week would not really be “authentic” either.

    I feel this is a kind of sophistry. First, some of the changes le Duc made were reversals of modern additions. Second, his changes did not make significant alterations in the building’s overall aesthetics, such as the addition of a glass and steel roof would. Fundamentally, you are straw-manning and refusing to engage my point.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  291. @Chrisnonymous

    My vague impression is that Viollet le Duc pretty much invented historically-informed restoration in the 1840s, which is impressive. He gets criticized a lot, but that’s kind of a glass is half-empty charge. I’m a big fan of Romanticism, which you don’t hear much about these days compared to the preceding Enlightenment.

    Did people do restoration before the 19th Century? For example, Chartres, started in 1194, lost one of its towers to lightning in 1506. So it was rebuilt, but in a completely different style. It’s really weird that you have two side by side towers of different height and design, but for whatever reason it works wonderfully.

    At Notre-Dame, the two towers are supposed to be identical, but one is slightly bigger, enough different that you can kind of see it.

    It was hard back then to get things perfect.

  292. @LondonBob

    I’m no architect, but I know enough about photography to see that a glass roof will completely destroy the quality of light within the cathedral. And in particular, direct overhead sky light in temperate latitudes tends to be bluish and diffuse, and will likely highlight every flaw and stain in the stone walls in a very unflattering way.

  293. @Obsidian

    I have no reason to doubt that there were people of various ethnicities in Scotland at the time

    Why not? Don’t be unreasonable.

  294. MEH 0910 says:

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