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Forgotten History: FDR's WWII Persecution of Italians in San Francisco
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From The Atlantic:

What Makes Today’s America Different From the Country That Incarcerated the Japanese?

A conversation with a historian about the slow creep of discrimination, from the U.S. government to church groups

EMMA GREEN NOV 29, 2016 POLITICS

When Donald Trump and other Republican legislators proposed a ban on Muslim immigration to the United States last November, many commentators turned to history. My colleague Matt Ford argued that the incarceration of Japanese Americans during World War II, along with the jurisprudence initially used to justify it, shows why these kinds of ethnic- or religious-based policies are flawed. More recently, Trump and his aides have spoken in favor of reviving a registry for Muslims entering the United States and undertaking “extreme vetting” of Muslims fleeing persecution, including potentially creating holding areas for them outside of the United States. …

Looking back historically, the situation with Japan was obviously a little bit different in that there were political tensions growing between the two countries.

Here’s a video of “political tensions growing:”

https://youtu.be/bxIsVYdB0lA?t=50s

Green: What would you say is the takeaway from all of this as we look ahead to more years of discrimination against different minority groups in the United States?

Blankenship: Japanese incarceration was completely based on racial prejudice and economic competition.

It had nothing to do with Pearl Harbor. Nothing!

I suspect it’s only a matter of years until FDR is banished from the dime the way Andrew Jackson is getting removed from the $20 bill. Another couple of decades, and the only thing that will be remembered of Franklin Roosevelt is redlining, Japanese internment, and not letting in the St. Louis.

The hysteria that led to the West Coast Japanese internment in 1942 was somewhat similar ideologically to the center-left anti-Russian hysteria peddled by Hillary Clinton in 2016. It was feared at the time that Fascists were trying to conquer the world. (One difference is that the Axis more or less was.)

In retrospect, it turned out that all you had to do was ask Japanese people which side they were on. If they swore loyalty, you could rely on their oath. If they swore undying fealty to the Emperor, as about 5,000 did, well, you could rely on those guys to be a handful. The Japanese in 1940s America didn’t seem to have much concept of taqiyya.

But mistakes get made in wartime, especially right after the biggest defeat in American history. FDR had a lot of decisions to make in 1942. Rounding up Japanese American citizens on the West Coast was one he screwed up.

Big leaguers Vince, Joe, and Dom DiMaggio

Something that has been almost completely forgotten is how much persecution there was by the Roosevelt Administration in 1941-42 of Italians in Northern California. I had never heard of it until I was reading an article about 2000 about the campaign by old Red Sox ballplayer Dom DiMaggio, Joe D’s high IQ brother, to get people to remember the abuses.

It doesn’t fit into modern obsessions so it’s forgotten. But here’s an interesting Los Angeles Times article from 2010:

State apologizes for mistreatment of Italian residents during WWII

Legislature passes resolution expressing ‘deepest regret’ for the wartime internment, curfews, confiscations and other indignities that thousands of Italian and Italian American families faced.

August 23, 2010|By Steve Chawkins, Los Angeles Times

Reporting from Monterey — When Mike Maiorana was a boy during World War II, his family was like a lot of others in his Monterey neighborhood.

In 1942, his mother was declared an “enemy alien,” along with 600,000 other Italians and half a million Germans and Japanese who weren’t U.S. citizens. More than once, men in suits searched the Maiorana house for guns, flashlights, cameras, shortwave radios — anything that could be used to signal the enemy.

Like 10,000 others up and down the California coast, the family was suddenly forced to uproot. At their new place in Salinas, they had to be home by 8 p.m. or face arrest. And when the government seized fishing boats for the war effort, Maiorana’s dad, a naturalized U.S. citizen, saw his livelihood go down the drain.

“He was on the skids for the rest of his life,” said Maiorana, 75, who owns a boatyard and marina on the harbor where his father’s boat — as well as those of his uncles and several dozen other Italian fishermen — were confiscated.

Families like the Maioranas last week received a formal acknowledgement from California. A measure that swiftly made its way through the Legislature expresses the state’s “deepest regrets” over the mistreatment of Italians and Italian Americans during World War II. Not nearly as severe or long-lasting as the internment of Japanese Americans, the wartime restrictions are still little-known throughout California, where they were the most heavily enforced. …

No comparable measure has been passed by the state or federal government on behalf of more than 11,000 interned Germans, including some Jewish refugees fleeing Hitler.

Even before war broke out, the FBI had compiled lists of immigrants who were considered dangerous. Among the Italians, there were journalists, language teachers and men active in an Italian veterans group. After Pearl Harbor, about 250 were sent to camps in Montana and elsewhere. …

In New York, the FBI incarcerated Metropolitan Opera star Ezio Pinza and released him, without charge, three months later. In San Francisco, Joe DiMaggio’s father Giuseppe couldn’t visit the family restaurant on Fisherman’s Wharf: As an enemy alien, he could not travel more than five miles without permission.

Enforcement was chaotic. On the East Coast, with its massive Italian population, there was no forced relocation. In California, the mandate hit Northern California harder than the Los Angeles area.

In the Bay Area, Pittsburg was home to Camp Stoneman, a jumping-off point for Pacific-bound troops. About 2,000 Italians were ousted from the community, with the burden falling most on elderly people who didn’t speak much English and hadn’t become citizens. …

Then there was the confiscation of fishing boats from California’s mostly Italian fleet. Paying their owners a nominal fee, the government used them to haul targets and refuel PT boats. But the cost of postwar repairs and a vanishing sardine fishery spelled disaster for many.

Angelo Maiorana, Mike’s father, owned the 95-foot Dux, which was returned to him in bad shape after four years in the Philippines.

“They gave him a $20,000 check, but it cost him $46,000 to get the boat back into condition,” his son said. “He was on his back, flat broke.” …

Most of the measures ended within a year.

The excessive treatment of Italians in Northern California was particularly strange because, unlike the Japanese aircraft carriers, which ran amok from 12/7/41 to 6/4/42, there was no conceivable way for Mussolini’s fleet to get to San Francisco. (Besides, the Italian Navy had largely been sunk by the British in a Pearl Harbor preview at Taranto in late 1940.)

It made sense on December 8, 1941 as part of the anti-Fascist hysteria of the time, but who can remember there ever was such a thing?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzW4PH68KG4

The funny thing is that by the end of the war, America was entering a long love affair with most things Italian that went on and on (until the cultural climate changed with the Sixties).

 
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  1. And now a terrible joke:

    A: Why does the new Italian Navy have glass bottoms?

    A: To see the old Italian Navy.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Blosky

    When one considers the one-sided turkey-shoot that the British/Italian 'war of the Mediterranean' was, and the enormity of the Italian casualties, one is left with very little sympathy with the that current plague of boat-borne invaders currently voluntarily choosing to put out to sea in inadequate craft and afterwards complaining of 'difficulties'.

    One is simultaneously puzzled and appalled at the pain, stark abursidty of current Italian 'ferrying' operations of a blatant hostile invasionary force.

    Replies: @Old Palo Altan

  2. “It doesn’t fit into modern categories so it’s forgotten”

    That’s because we Italians do not belong to the coalition of the fringes, but the Japanese certainly do. The Japs vote in a monolithic bloc for The Democratic Party. Has anybody here ever met a Jap Republican?

    Japanese Americans are a lot more Left Wing than the Japs in Japan.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Jefferson

    'Japanese-Americans' are, literally, a dying people. Due to a very high intermarriage rate with white Americans, (over 50%), Japanese-Americans will ,effectively, vanish from the USA at some future date.
    Considering how ethno-centric the Japanese in Japan are, credit must be given to the Japanese-Americans for more or less unilaterally dissolving their distinctiveness away, perhaps as a 'price' for 'being American'.

    Replies: @Jim Sweeney, @stillCARealist

    , @Milo Minderbinder
    @Jefferson

    Has anybody here ever met a Jap Republican?

    Well, there was this guy.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S._I._Hayakawa

    Replies: @stillCARealist, @Reg Cæsar

    , @snorlax
    @Jefferson

    It's funny, but I'm not sure I, in Massachusetts, have ever met a Japanese person period. Plenty of Chinese, Koreans, Vietnamese, Filipinos and even Taiwanese, but no Japanese I can think of. I do know a number of half-Asians with white fathers, so maybe one of them although I don't think so.

    Oh, I know, the author of this book came in and talked to my 5th-grade class after we read it (some years before the Koreans raised a stink). I remember that she wore the full Japanese traditional dress (kimono etc), she was very polite and charming, she made tea and cookies for all the children and she still spoke with a thick accent after ~50 years of living here.

    The book as I recall was well-written and likely entirely accurate, although propaganda-ish in that it elided any of the necessary context about what the Japanese had done to the Koreans and Americans prior to the start of the narrative, and in any event far too intense for 10-year-olds.

    , @Anonymous
    @Jefferson

    The Japanese affiliation with the Democratic Party predates the contemporary left-wing and "coalition of the fringes" Democratic Party. They were affiliated with the Dems back when the South voted as a bloc for the Dems, and back when "liberal Republicans" were a major component of the GOP and when the GOP was more liberal in some respects than the Dems.

    , @Sam Lawrence
    @Jefferson

    It should be called "The Coalition Of The Whinges".

  3. Kinda off topic, but this provides me a forum to express something I’ve long felt. ‘Pearl Harbor’ has all the great cinematography and CGI and all, as the scene in the clip in the post shows. And it’s neat up to a point. But comparing that to the same scene in Tora Tora Tora, I’ve always felt that the latter was superior. Not, obviously, because of technical achievements, but rather because of limitations. The scenes were far closer to what you’d actually have seen, say, if torpedo bombers were coming at your ship. It is also interesting to note that 25 years after Pearl Harbor Americans and Japanese could collaborate on a movie, and treat each other as honorable foes, or at least recognize some honor in their opponents.

    • Agree: Bill
    • Replies: @whorefinder
    @M_Young


    ‘Pearl Harbor’ has all the great cinematography and CGI and all, as the scene in the clip in the post shows. And it’s neat up to a point.
     
    Pearl Harbor (2001) was a flop and critically attacked. It was so hated the guys from South Park made a whole song about how bad it was in Team America: World Police :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9jS4gppIFs

    Pearl Harbor's flopping was a combination of things.

    First it was backlash against star Ben Affleck , who had wildly overextended himself in public thanks to dating Jennifer Lopez. "Bennifer" was so much in the tabloids and Affleck was starring in so many sub-par-but-hyped movies at the time that people were vomitously sick of him. (Daredevil, anyone?) The backlash against Affleck was so bad he retreated behind the camera for years to rehab his image, and yet even then there was some carryover when he was cast as Batman in the recent spate of DC comics movies----many people were bitching about it, calling him Batfleck, and bringing up J'Lo and Daredevil all over again. Thankfully for Affleck, his Batman turned out to have been the best thing about the recent Justice League films.

    Second, it's the undying hatred crticis/Lefties has for Michael Bay. Bay probably would have been a stupdenously-lauded silent film director, (likely Westerns/action films of the era; I could picture him and Douglas Fairbanks working together a lot), but in the era of sound and p.c and where heroes are supposed to all spout believable-p.c.-tirades and action is for kids he's ridiculed.

    Bay tells his stories visually and with the "male gaze" (Megan Fox, anyone?) and macho male mindset as his POV, and loves special effects, but critics want more feminized talky-talky stuff and hate his love for children's cartoons of the 80s and his overall love of macho masculinity. Yet he made The Rock, one of the best movies of the 1990s, and makes a mint at the box office. Pearl Harbor was one of his few flops, and critics jumped on him for it. Bay reminds me of Cecil B. DeMille in how the latter was criticized as artless and yet made more memorable scenes than the art-house set.

    Third, WW2 movie fatigue was setting in by the time of Pearl Harbor (2001). Schlinder's List (1993) had re-ignited the WW2 Hollywood film--a genre had been shunted aside in the late 70s and 80s in favor of the Vietnam War films---and Braveheart (1995) made epics popular again, so Saving Private Ryan (1998) was feasible.

    And the 1990s saw the 50th Anniversary of WW2 and the realization that all those old vets were dying off, so there was a nostalgia craze for it as well. (50 years later seems to be a magic number for filmmakers to get interested in an era again; the 1970s saw a huge boom in movies about the 1920s and bootlegging and the like; the 1950s saw a boom in movies about the turn of the 20th Century and the end of the Gay Nineties).

    But by 2001 the boom was over and people were kind of over WW2 films by then. After Pearl Harbor, WW2 films tended to be smaller budget dramas, although Tarantino's Inglorious Basterds was an exception. But nobody was making a WW2 film as their tentpole summer flick after Pearl Harbor.

    Replies: @whorefinder, @The Man From K Street, @Clyde, @SPMoore8, @Thirdeye, @Anonymous

    , @Steve Sailer
    @M_Young

    There was a pro-Japanese American movie from MGM at least as early as 1951, "Go For Broke," about the Fighting 442nd regiment that won so many medals in Europe:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_for_Broke!_(1951_film)

    It did fairly well at the box office and the screenplay got an Oscar nomination. I saw it on TV when I was a kid.

    Replies: @tamako, @Captain Tripps, @Buddwing

    , @SFG
    @M_Young

    We won so ridiculously there was no point in their continuing hostilities. After Hiroshima and Nagasaki they quite reasonably figured they had no chance.

    There's still resentment, but at this point they're more afraid of China...which has a lot more to be bitter about than a sneak attack leading up to a war. Remember the Rape of Nanking?

    Replies: @OFWHAP

  4. It is interesting to read about all the Japanese Americans fighting the Germans and Italians in WWII, knowing that there were also plenty of German Americans fighting the Japanese.

    Do/did we have Afghan Americans fighting the Iraqis and Iraqi Americans fighting the Taliban?

    • Replies: @Romanian
    @wren

    Not a lot of them, since fewer Muslim American servicemen have died in those wars than the number of American servicemen killed by their Muslim comrades in the US military in various "workplace incidents".

    Replies: @AnotherDad

    , @bomag
    @wren


    Do/did we have Afghan Americans fighting the Iraqis and Iraqi Americans fighting the Taliban?
     
    Don't know of any from my casual view. I would assume they would be Muslim, and that group joins the military at a rate only a third of their share of the population.

    Interesting tidbit:

    Muslim Soldiers Have Murdered as Many US Soldiers as the Enemy Have Killed Muslim Soldiers.

    , @Captain Tripps
    @wren


    Do/did we have Afghan Americans fighting the Iraqis and Iraqi Americans fighting the Taliban?
     
    We have a pretty large population, so almost certainly there have been some examples of what you cite. But not anywhere near the levels of how many Italian-Americans and German-Americans fought on our side in WWII.

    Remember, Americans of German ancestry are the largest sub-ethnic population in the United States, and in fact Germans have been here in large numbers since the mid-1800's. I have ancestry from this group of German immigrants on my mother's side. Indeed, the XI (11th) Corps of the Army of the Potomac in the Civil War was composed of a majority of German immigrants, many of whom didn't even speak English, they had arrived so soon. Looking at some of the names of their commanders gives you a sense of the picture (Schurz, Schimmelfennig, von Steinwehr, Stahel). Unfortunately, for them, they took the brunt of Lee's better generals (Jackson at Chancellorville, and Early at Gettysburg) and earned a reputation for poor combat (mostly due to their inept commanders). By the time of WWII, millions of Americans had significant German ancestry and were well assimilated into the mainstream of American (WASP) culture, as evidenced by Ike (Eisenhower) being our top General in the European theater. Those who weren't apt to do so probably migrated back to the Fatherland after WWI, when anti-German sentiment (both official and unofficial) was pretty high.

    In fact, Ike's election to the Presidency represented the culmination of German-Americans' ascendancy in the dominant WASP culture; I believe Ike was the first non-Anglo/Dutch (at least by surname) American to be elected President.

    Same goes for Italian-Americans, to a lesser extent. There were millions whose ancestors had arrived in the late 1800's/early 1900's to make them thoroughly American by the time of the war.

    Replies: @Taco, @PV van der Byl

  5. Lots of old time WWII Italian jokes.

    Q: How can you tell if a captured tank is Italian?

    A: Has one forward gear, and four in reverse.

    • Replies: @eah
    @Anon

    Reminds me of this anecdote about Stalingrad: the Germans used satellite troops on the flanks while their Sixth Army attacked the city -- the Red Army crashed the flanks and surrounded the Germans in Stalingrad -- early on, an Italian staff officer reportedly asked the Germans about Italian casualties, and was told: 'No casualties at all, they're running'.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Diversity Heretic

  6. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Jefferson
    "It doesn’t fit into modern categories so it’s forgotten"

    That's because we Italians do not belong to the coalition of the fringes, but the Japanese certainly do. The Japs vote in a monolithic bloc for The Democratic Party. Has anybody here ever met a Jap Republican?

    Japanese Americans are a lot more Left Wing than the Japs in Japan.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Milo Minderbinder, @snorlax, @Anonymous, @Sam Lawrence

    ‘Japanese-Americans’ are, literally, a dying people. Due to a very high intermarriage rate with white Americans, (over 50%), Japanese-Americans will ,effectively, vanish from the USA at some future date.
    Considering how ethno-centric the Japanese in Japan are, credit must be given to the Japanese-Americans for more or less unilaterally dissolving their distinctiveness away, perhaps as a ‘price’ for ‘being American’.

    • Replies: @Jim Sweeney
    @Anonymous

    I think it more likely that American men adore Japanese women most of whom have retained their ancestral traits of femininity and sexual submission in addition to their charm, style and beauty. And, No, I'm not married to a Japanese woman; I'm not even married.

    , @stillCARealist
    @Anonymous

    Yeah, all the Japanese people I know are either mixed or married to a white American. In fact, I'm not sure I've ever known a Japanese mother and father with children. Probably because there's so few of them here in CA. The Chinese, while they marry plenty of whites, seem to find same-race marriage partners with relative ease.

  7. Leftist heroes FDR and Earl Warren (then Gov. of California) were the big backers of internment while J. Edgar Hoover was opposed. OTOH, Hoover enthusiastically participated in FDR’s Brown Scare from its beginning in 1935. Hoover probably thought he knew enough about subversive and potentially subversive networks in the US -at least the non-Communist ones-that interment was superfluous.

    • Replies: @Dan Hayes
    @fnn

    fnn:

    Thanks for the information. BTW, one of the few national politicians against internment was Bob Taft, the great conservative senator from Ohio (aka, Mr. Republican). And a very minor correction: Earl Warren led the call for internment when he was Attorney General of California.

  8. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Blosky
    And now a terrible joke:

    A: Why does the new Italian Navy have glass bottoms?

    A: To see the old Italian Navy.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    When one considers the one-sided turkey-shoot that the British/Italian ‘war of the Mediterranean’ was, and the enormity of the Italian casualties, one is left with very little sympathy with the that current plague of boat-borne invaders currently voluntarily choosing to put out to sea in inadequate craft and afterwards complaining of ‘difficulties’.

    One is simultaneously puzzled and appalled at the pain, stark abursidty of current Italian ‘ferrying’ operations of a blatant hostile invasionary force.

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    @Anonymous

    Ir was part of the price extorted from them when they were saved from financial collapse by the EU.
    But it is all about to end: on Sunday the traitorous, imposed PM will see his referendum defeated and himself forced out. The Right will be back in short order and the ferrying operations will stop.
    Soon enough to save Italy? Let's hope so, because without Italy there is no Europe.

  9. “treat each other as honorable foes”

    ~33% of American prisoners of the Japanese died in captivity. But look on the bright side: only a few were dissected or eaten.

    • Replies: @M_Young
    @gcochran

    Well, yes. Japanese were horrible to surrendered prisoners. Which makes it all the more incredible that in 1970 Americans and Japanese can make a movie like Tora Tora Tora. The men who fought in the Pacific then must have had an average age of about 50, yet didn't go screaming about being 'triggered' by the film.

    Replies: @utu

    , @Buffalo Joe
    @gcochran

    Gcochran, I know for a fact that short handed GI units in Europe sometimes didn't take prisoners but I don't think they tortured or worked them literally to death. The Japanese hated their captives and as the outcome of the war became certain, they ramped up their mistreatment and execution of their prisoners. The book "Fly Boys" by James Bradley, who also wrote "Flags of our Fathers", gives a graphic and sickening account of the Japanese torture and execution of American POWs. The book "The Ghost Raid" (maybe wrong on the title) tells of a stealth raid by the US Army to rescue GI POWs in the Philipines, as the Japanese were actively executing them en-masse.

  10. @M_Young
    Kinda off topic, but this provides me a forum to express something I've long felt. 'Pearl Harbor' has all the great cinematography and CGI and all, as the scene in the clip in the post shows. And it's neat up to a point. But comparing that to the same scene in Tora Tora Tora, I've always felt that the latter was superior. Not, obviously, because of technical achievements, but rather because of limitations. The scenes were far closer to what you'd actually have seen, say, if torpedo bombers were coming at your ship. It is also interesting to note that 25 years after Pearl Harbor Americans and Japanese could collaborate on a movie, and treat each other as honorable foes, or at least recognize some honor in their opponents.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNtsBB5dPxk

    Replies: @whorefinder, @Steve Sailer, @SFG

    ‘Pearl Harbor’ has all the great cinematography and CGI and all, as the scene in the clip in the post shows. And it’s neat up to a point.

    Pearl Harbor (2001) was a flop and critically attacked. It was so hated the guys from South Park made a whole song about how bad it was in Team America: World Police :

    Pearl Harbor’s flopping was a combination of things.

    First it was backlash against star Ben Affleck , who had wildly overextended himself in public thanks to dating Jennifer Lopez. “Bennifer” was so much in the tabloids and Affleck was starring in so many sub-par-but-hyped movies at the time that people were vomitously sick of him. (Daredevil, anyone?) The backlash against Affleck was so bad he retreated behind the camera for years to rehab his image, and yet even then there was some carryover when he was cast as Batman in the recent spate of DC comics movies—-many people were bitching about it, calling him Batfleck, and bringing up J’Lo and Daredevil all over again. Thankfully for Affleck, his Batman turned out to have been the best thing about the recent Justice League films.

    Second, it’s the undying hatred crticis/Lefties has for Michael Bay. Bay probably would have been a stupdenously-lauded silent film director, (likely Westerns/action films of the era; I could picture him and Douglas Fairbanks working together a lot), but in the era of sound and p.c and where heroes are supposed to all spout believable-p.c.-tirades and action is for kids he’s ridiculed.

    Bay tells his stories visually and with the “male gaze” (Megan Fox, anyone?) and macho male mindset as his POV, and loves special effects, but critics want more feminized talky-talky stuff and hate his love for children’s cartoons of the 80s and his overall love of macho masculinity. Yet he made The Rock, one of the best movies of the 1990s, and makes a mint at the box office. Pearl Harbor was one of his few flops, and critics jumped on him for it. Bay reminds me of Cecil B. DeMille in how the latter was criticized as artless and yet made more memorable scenes than the art-house set.

    Third, WW2 movie fatigue was setting in by the time of Pearl Harbor (2001). Schlinder’s List (1993) had re-ignited the WW2 Hollywood film–a genre had been shunted aside in the late 70s and 80s in favor of the Vietnam War films—and Braveheart (1995) made epics popular again, so Saving Private Ryan (1998) was feasible.

    And the 1990s saw the 50th Anniversary of WW2 and the realization that all those old vets were dying off, so there was a nostalgia craze for it as well. (50 years later seems to be a magic number for filmmakers to get interested in an era again; the 1970s saw a huge boom in movies about the 1920s and bootlegging and the like; the 1950s saw a boom in movies about the turn of the 20th Century and the end of the Gay Nineties).

    But by 2001 the boom was over and people were kind of over WW2 films by then. After Pearl Harbor, WW2 films tended to be smaller budget dramas, although Tarantino’s Inglorious Basterds was an exception. But nobody was making a WW2 film as their tentpole summer flick after Pearl Harbor.

    • Replies: @whorefinder
    @whorefinder

    P.S. You could also argue that the early Westerns of Hollywood (1910s and 1920s and 1930s)---which were huge hits and created the genre--- were nothing more than the filmmakers doing another 50-year look back.

    50 years before those first films were the late 1860s and 1870s and 1880s, which was literally in the middle of the Western era that today makes for much of the Western legends: Wyatt Earp, Billy the Kid, etc. Many of the Western heroes that emerged on screen had some sort of Civil War soldier background who usually had sought a "fresh start" in the frontier.

    N.B. Wyatt Earp was alive and living in Los Angeles when the movie industry began there, and allegedly served as an extra in very early Western films.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    , @The Man From K Street
    @whorefinder

    I think your "50-year look back" theory is spot on, but I think the Affleck and Bay revulsion theories, while probable in ordinary circumstances, were really more bad luck in timing. If the film had had some post-production glitches, it might have been postponed to be a Thanksgiving release --and in the immediate post-9/11 atmosphere, the same movie about a similar national disaster would have been a monster commercial and critical hit.

    , @Clyde
    @whorefinder


    Second, it’s the undying hatred crticis/Lefties has for Michael Bay.
     
    He keeps it quiet as possible but he is definitely center right to right. And directs from the male POV as you say. Tom Hanks is one of my lowest scoring male POV actors. There are too many others. At least post WW2 Hollywood was full of rational guys who served. And high schools were full of such grounded male teachers.
    , @SPMoore8
    @whorefinder

    Pearl Harbor is definitely the worst in theater experience I ever had. I took my daughters to go see it the summer it came out, after being bored out of my mind I checked my watch and we were only 15 minutes into it.

    Everything about that film sucked, from the biplane childhood character establishment, to the hot chicks at Hickham field, to the Titanic ripoff in New York harbor, to the Doolittle Raid tacked on in the finale, etc.

    Nevertheless, I can attest that my mother -- in her 90's -- liked it on DVD. I guess you had to have been there.

    WW2 movies lost steam after Vietnam and made a big uptick thanks to the first Gulf War (which made war good again) and the Greatest Generation meme. Saving Private Ryan was the big one, I don't know if there's been anything before or since that was popular. (Holocaust movies aren't exactly the same thing, since they usually feature no combat.)

    Replies: @Captain Tripps

    , @Thirdeye
    @whorefinder

    Pearl Harbor took so may liberties with historical fact for the sake of contrived plot devices that it became eye-roll material. Welsh and Taylor recruited for the Doolittle raid? Sheesh! Even the tactics of P-40s vs Zekes were ass-backward. No, P-40 pilots did not dogfight Zekes. Or at least they didn't dogfight and live to tell about it. The movie would also have us believe that kids were playing baseball at 7 am on a Sunday.

    , @Anonymous
    @whorefinder

    I remember the movie had cool action scenes but it was really long and kind of a drag. I think that's why it got bad reviews. It could've been edited better.

  11. @M_Young
    Kinda off topic, but this provides me a forum to express something I've long felt. 'Pearl Harbor' has all the great cinematography and CGI and all, as the scene in the clip in the post shows. And it's neat up to a point. But comparing that to the same scene in Tora Tora Tora, I've always felt that the latter was superior. Not, obviously, because of technical achievements, but rather because of limitations. The scenes were far closer to what you'd actually have seen, say, if torpedo bombers were coming at your ship. It is also interesting to note that 25 years after Pearl Harbor Americans and Japanese could collaborate on a movie, and treat each other as honorable foes, or at least recognize some honor in their opponents.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNtsBB5dPxk

    Replies: @whorefinder, @Steve Sailer, @SFG

    There was a pro-Japanese American movie from MGM at least as early as 1951, “Go For Broke,” about the Fighting 442nd regiment that won so many medals in Europe:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_for_Broke!_(1951_film)

    It did fairly well at the box office and the screenplay got an Oscar nomination. I saw it on TV when I was a kid.

    • Replies: @tamako
    @Steve Sailer

    I'm for a WW2 film depicting a battle America losing valiantly. Something along the lines of a depiction of the Battle for Bataan from start to finish should do for this.

    Replies: @David In TN, @Hubbub

    , @Captain Tripps
    @Steve Sailer

    I believe the late Pat Morita's character Mr. Kesuke Miyagi in the "Karate Kid" franchise was a 442nd Regimental Combat Team (RCT) Medal of Honor recipient whose backstory was that he lost his wife and son (during childbirth) in an internment camp. The real Pat Morita actually did spend a year and a half in an internment camp as an adolescent.

    P.S.: The late Senator Daniel Inouye was a MOH recipient of the 442nd.

    Replies: @Anon

    , @Buddwing
    @Steve Sailer

    A somewhat later film that was sympathetic to Japanese Americans was Hell to Eternity (1960) a true story about a white marine raised in LA by Japanese who were interned. He fought in Saipan and used his Japanese language to lure Japanese soldiers out of their redoubts to kill them. Ultimately, he is able to talk Japanese soldiers into surrender.

    You should remember the context here, however. The Korean War converted Japan from a conquered enemy into a needed ally in the Cold War. There was a need to promote a rapprochement between the US and Japan. People on both sides were urged to look beyond the Pearl Harbor/Bataan Death March/Kamikaze/Fire-bombing/Nuclear-Bombing dynamic and rebuild respect for each other. There was a lot of overt push to suppress bad feelings, but it does show up from time to time:


    General Jack D. Ripper:
    Mandrake, were you ever a prisoner of war?
    Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake:
    Well, yes I was Jack as a matter of fact I was.
    General Jack D. Ripper:
    Did they torture you?
    Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake:
    Yes Jack, I was tortured by the Japanese, if you must know, not a pretty story.
    General Jack D. Ripper:
    Well, what happened?
    Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake:
    Oh Well, I don't know, Jack, difficult to think of under these conditions, but well, they got me on the old Ragoon-Ichinawa railway. I was laying train lines for the bloody Japanese puff-puff's.
    General Jack D. Ripper:
    No, I mean when they tortured you did you talk?
    Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake:
    Ah, oh, no, I don't think they wanted me to talk really, I don't think they wanted me to say anything. It was just their way of having a bit of fun the swines. Strange thing is they make such bloody good cameras.

  12. (One difference is that the Axis more or less was.)

    This is not true. The Nazis and, still more so, the Japanese, were in the grip of some seriously evil madness, but they were neither individually, nor in concert, trying to conquer the world. There was only one country involved in WW2 who was trying to conquer the world and, not coincidentally, it was the country that actually did.

    • Disagree: melendwyr
    • Replies: @bomag
    @Gabriel M


    but they were neither individually, nor in concert, trying to conquer the world
     
    But they conquered significant territory outside their historic borders.
    , @Hibernian
    @Gabriel M

    Who were the Axis going to leave alone, in your view?

    , @Bill Jones
    @Gabriel M

    Why do people still use the term "Nazis"?

    At the peak, members of the National Socialist Party numbered about 5 million.

    They were a minority in the Wehrmacht too.

    , @snorlax
    @Gabriel M


    There was only one country involved in WW2 who was trying to conquer the world and, not coincidentally, it was the country that actually did.
     
    I think it's most accurate to say there were two: the one that actually did, and the one that got about halfway thanks to all the help it got during that time from the leadership of the former.
    , @Sam Haysom
    @Gabriel M

    This is the kind of crap that makes some portions of the alt-right so worth ignoring.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Gabriel M

    , @Anonymous
    @Gabriel M

    If Germany was able to prevail in Europe, Japan was somehow capable of landing troops in California, and both countries were blockading America, what would have happened to all those Japanese in the internment camps? The American government identified and quarantined racial-political hostiles as the Germans and other nations did during the war.

    Sure, they were treated fine when the war was thousands of miles away and America was exporting food, but if push came to shove, if Americans were starving and blockaded, if domestic bases had to be abandoned in the face of an enemy offensive, the Japanese-Americans would probably have been slowly starved out and/or exterminated lest they serve as assets to their captors, similar to what happened in occupied Europe in the later years of the war.

    , @neon2
    @Gabriel M

    Anybody who seriously believes that Germany was out to "conquer the world" knows no history and prefers propoganda.
    Hitler wanted Lebensraum in the east and the annihilation of Communism.
    He also wanted the British Empire to flourish; since that Empire controlled a good one-third of it, it is clear that conquering the world was simply not part of Hitler's vision.
    And do please try to remember who declared war upon whom (and for the second time in twenty-five years).

  13. I don’t think they’ll throw FDR down the memory hole, just yet. Many people still admire FDR as the guy who saved America with the New Deal. He’s also viewed as a good guy for taking on the “America First” people, who are still the most hated people in American history.

    • Replies: @whorefinder
    @JohnnyD

    FDR will always have at least two things going for him:

    (1) WW2 is still lauded by (((Hollywood))) as the "good" war because it stopped the extermination of (((certain))) people who, today, are running Hollywood. So those who fought the Nazis and saved their ancestors get some credit.

    (2) His communist New Deal and allowing so many commie spies to run rampant in his administration---always lauded.

    , @Gabriel M
    @JohnnyD

    They will most likely do the same thing as they have done with the founding fathers. One minute they set up a nation dedicated to the principles of equality, civil rights and welcoming Muslims (or whatever), the next minute they were all racist slaveholders and back and forth ad infinitum.

    Since Leftism is a process not a set of ideas, and since for the last 100 years the only surviving institutions to tear down have been ones that previous Leftists erected, they have no choice but to engage in such doublethink. They're pretty good at it.

    , @Random Dude on the Internet
    @JohnnyD

    FDR is one of those heroes that they will just continually reinvent for modern times to avoid being seen as a wrongthinker. While campus Marxists want to tear down heroes, the Democrats know that they need to have some of history's heroes be on their side. FDR and Lincoln (even though he was a Republican) will always be those guys. I'm sure Barack will be sainted and be included in this category, especially since it may be an especially long time until we see a non-white face be President again and even then will a Latino face have the same impact as the first black president? I really doubt it, even among Latinos themselves.

    Replies: @Harry Baldwin

  14. @whorefinder
    @M_Young


    ‘Pearl Harbor’ has all the great cinematography and CGI and all, as the scene in the clip in the post shows. And it’s neat up to a point.
     
    Pearl Harbor (2001) was a flop and critically attacked. It was so hated the guys from South Park made a whole song about how bad it was in Team America: World Police :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9jS4gppIFs

    Pearl Harbor's flopping was a combination of things.

    First it was backlash against star Ben Affleck , who had wildly overextended himself in public thanks to dating Jennifer Lopez. "Bennifer" was so much in the tabloids and Affleck was starring in so many sub-par-but-hyped movies at the time that people were vomitously sick of him. (Daredevil, anyone?) The backlash against Affleck was so bad he retreated behind the camera for years to rehab his image, and yet even then there was some carryover when he was cast as Batman in the recent spate of DC comics movies----many people were bitching about it, calling him Batfleck, and bringing up J'Lo and Daredevil all over again. Thankfully for Affleck, his Batman turned out to have been the best thing about the recent Justice League films.

    Second, it's the undying hatred crticis/Lefties has for Michael Bay. Bay probably would have been a stupdenously-lauded silent film director, (likely Westerns/action films of the era; I could picture him and Douglas Fairbanks working together a lot), but in the era of sound and p.c and where heroes are supposed to all spout believable-p.c.-tirades and action is for kids he's ridiculed.

    Bay tells his stories visually and with the "male gaze" (Megan Fox, anyone?) and macho male mindset as his POV, and loves special effects, but critics want more feminized talky-talky stuff and hate his love for children's cartoons of the 80s and his overall love of macho masculinity. Yet he made The Rock, one of the best movies of the 1990s, and makes a mint at the box office. Pearl Harbor was one of his few flops, and critics jumped on him for it. Bay reminds me of Cecil B. DeMille in how the latter was criticized as artless and yet made more memorable scenes than the art-house set.

    Third, WW2 movie fatigue was setting in by the time of Pearl Harbor (2001). Schlinder's List (1993) had re-ignited the WW2 Hollywood film--a genre had been shunted aside in the late 70s and 80s in favor of the Vietnam War films---and Braveheart (1995) made epics popular again, so Saving Private Ryan (1998) was feasible.

    And the 1990s saw the 50th Anniversary of WW2 and the realization that all those old vets were dying off, so there was a nostalgia craze for it as well. (50 years later seems to be a magic number for filmmakers to get interested in an era again; the 1970s saw a huge boom in movies about the 1920s and bootlegging and the like; the 1950s saw a boom in movies about the turn of the 20th Century and the end of the Gay Nineties).

    But by 2001 the boom was over and people were kind of over WW2 films by then. After Pearl Harbor, WW2 films tended to be smaller budget dramas, although Tarantino's Inglorious Basterds was an exception. But nobody was making a WW2 film as their tentpole summer flick after Pearl Harbor.

    Replies: @whorefinder, @The Man From K Street, @Clyde, @SPMoore8, @Thirdeye, @Anonymous

    P.S. You could also argue that the early Westerns of Hollywood (1910s and 1920s and 1930s)—which were huge hits and created the genre— were nothing more than the filmmakers doing another 50-year look back.

    50 years before those first films were the late 1860s and 1870s and 1880s, which was literally in the middle of the Western era that today makes for much of the Western legends: Wyatt Earp, Billy the Kid, etc. Many of the Western heroes that emerged on screen had some sort of Civil War soldier background who usually had sought a “fresh start” in the frontier.

    N.B. Wyatt Earp was alive and living in Los Angeles when the movie industry began there, and allegedly served as an extra in very early Western films.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @whorefinder

    It should be doable to plot movies by how long ago they are set.

    Replies: @Buddwing, @Stationary Feast

  15. @Anon
    Lots of old time WWII Italian jokes.

    Q: How can you tell if a captured tank is Italian?

    A: Has one forward gear, and four in reverse.

    Replies: @eah

    Reminds me of this anecdote about Stalingrad: the Germans used satellite troops on the flanks while their Sixth Army attacked the city — the Red Army crashed the flanks and surrounded the Germans in Stalingrad — early on, an Italian staff officer reportedly asked the Germans about Italian casualties, and was told: ‘No casualties at all, they’re running’.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @eah

    My father told me that he once was speaking to an Italian air force general whose unit had scores of F-104s. My father asked the Italian what their secret was. The West Germans were always complaining about how lethal the F-104 was to their pilots, but the Italians never did.

    "Oh, our pilots die too," the Italian general replied. "We just don't complain about it."

    Replies: @Anon, @Anonymous, @David In TN

    , @Diversity Heretic
    @eah

    In fairness to the mostly Roumanian troops on the flanks of the German Sixth Army, their anti-tank weapons were totally inadequate and Paulus failed to maintain a mobile reserve to counter the Red Army's thrust north and south of the city. No matter how brave you are, if your anti-tank weapons won't do more than scratch the paint of your adversaries' tanks, a strategic withdrawal may be a sound move. In addition, you usually incur more casualties from running away than from even an orderly withdrawal.

  16. Harping on Japanese internment in the context of WWII strikes me as a peculiarly American form of humble-bragging.

  17. @eah
    @Anon

    Reminds me of this anecdote about Stalingrad: the Germans used satellite troops on the flanks while their Sixth Army attacked the city -- the Red Army crashed the flanks and surrounded the Germans in Stalingrad -- early on, an Italian staff officer reportedly asked the Germans about Italian casualties, and was told: 'No casualties at all, they're running'.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Diversity Heretic

    My father told me that he once was speaking to an Italian air force general whose unit had scores of F-104s. My father asked the Italian what their secret was. The West Germans were always complaining about how lethal the F-104 was to their pilots, but the Italians never did.

    “Oh, our pilots die too,” the Italian general replied. “We just don’t complain about it.”

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Steve Sailer

    From "Ethnic Humor Around the World: A Comparative Analysis" by Christie Davies

    Quote:
    p. 191

    Ethnic jokes about "cowardly Italians" are largely a twentieth-century phenomenon and only really common after World War II. However, the comic image of the Italians as unwarlike is much older, as Roger Pinon has shown in his discussion of "the saying that "Itali sunt imbelles" - the Italians do not fight", meaning that when confronted at the battle they flee at the first opportunity" (1980, 76). Pinon has found references to Italian cowardice as far back as the medieval period, when French and Germans alike mocked the alleged lack of martial courage of the Lombards (see Pinon 1980, 76-79). The unwarlike reputation of the Italians only became securely established however, in the sixteenth century, when it was referred to by writers as diverse as Rabelais, Machiavelli, Erasmus and Montaigne. (27) For Machiavelli it was a political problem calling for a solution, for the others a source of amusement, a kind of ethnic joke.

    pp. 192-3

    The Italian states employed mercenaries on short-term contracts who developed no loyalty to or identification with the state that employed them. Macaulay, in his essay on Machiavelli, has summed up the problems that this created:

    "The richest and most enlightened part of the world was left undefended to the assaults of every barbarous invader, to the brutality of Switzerland, the insolence of France, and the fierce rapacity of Aragon. The moral effects which followed from this state of things were still more remarkable.

    Among the rude nations which lay beyond the Alps, valour was absolutely indispensable. Without it none could be eminent; few could be secure. Cowardice was, therefore, naturally considered as the foulest reproach. Among the polished Italians, enriched by commerce, governed by law, and passionately attached to literature, everything was done by superiority of intelligence. Their very wars, more pacific than the peace of their neighbors, required rather civil than military qualifications. Hence while courage was the point of honour in other countries, ingenuity became the point of honour in Italy...

    Military courage, the boast of the sottish German, of the frivolous and pratting Frenchman, of the romantic and arrogant Spaniard, he (the Italian ruler) neither possesses nor values. He shuns danger, not because he is insensible to shame, but because in the society in which he lives timidity has ceased to be shameful."

    Italians growing up in such a society develop a strong capacity for loyalty to the small group of people known to them personally but may well have a weak attachment to impersonal institutions such as the army or other bureaucratic institutions.

    p. 194

    No way has yet been found in which the strong loyalties that Italians owe to smaller groups can be harnessed by state organizations such as the army, and indeed these loyalties may contribute to an organization's disintegration into squabbling groups of rival patrons and clients. The result has been a nation whose members have shown themselves to be courageous and indeed sometimes brutal members of feuding kinsmen or small guerilla bands but not effective soldiers in a large army. As Peter Nichols (1973, 53) has put it, the Italians are "capable of marvellous feats of personal bravery but reject fighting as the pursuit of fools."

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Steve Sailer, @Grumpy

    , @Anonymous
    @Steve Sailer

    I remember reading an anecdote that in the north African campaign, the Germans insisted that the tail gunners of their aircraft - the most hazardous situation - be Italian - whilst the cockpit crew were Germans.

    , @David In TN
    @Steve Sailer

    In a book I read many years ago about the air war in North Africa circa 1941-42, the consensus was the Italian fighter pilots were better from the flying point of view than their German allies and their British enemies.

    The Italian fighter pilots treated air combat like a medieval joust while the Germans had aggressive expert/leaders out to shoot down Allied planes and run up high victory totals.

    Replies: @Spork

  18. @JohnnyD
    I don't think they'll throw FDR down the memory hole, just yet. Many people still admire FDR as the guy who saved America with the New Deal. He's also viewed as a good guy for taking on the "America First" people, who are still the most hated people in American history.

    Replies: @whorefinder, @Gabriel M, @Random Dude on the Internet

    FDR will always have at least two things going for him:

    (1) WW2 is still lauded by (((Hollywood))) as the “good” war because it stopped the extermination of (((certain))) people who, today, are running Hollywood. So those who fought the Nazis and saved their ancestors get some credit.

    (2) His communist New Deal and allowing so many commie spies to run rampant in his administration—always lauded.

  19. @whorefinder
    @whorefinder

    P.S. You could also argue that the early Westerns of Hollywood (1910s and 1920s and 1930s)---which were huge hits and created the genre--- were nothing more than the filmmakers doing another 50-year look back.

    50 years before those first films were the late 1860s and 1870s and 1880s, which was literally in the middle of the Western era that today makes for much of the Western legends: Wyatt Earp, Billy the Kid, etc. Many of the Western heroes that emerged on screen had some sort of Civil War soldier background who usually had sought a "fresh start" in the frontier.

    N.B. Wyatt Earp was alive and living in Los Angeles when the movie industry began there, and allegedly served as an extra in very early Western films.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    It should be doable to plot movies by how long ago they are set.

    • Replies: @Buddwing
    @Steve Sailer

    I once plotted the Rolling Stone greatest albums of all time by age. I called the result "the nostalgia curve."

    I believe that 40 year old decision makers in Hollywood are interested in 1) today 2) when they were teenagers (20-25 years back) 3) when their parents got together and brought them into the world (40-50 years back) 4) exactly 100 years ago.

    , @Stationary Feast
    @Steve Sailer

    Not unrelated: https://xkcd.com/1491/

  20. @JohnnyD
    I don't think they'll throw FDR down the memory hole, just yet. Many people still admire FDR as the guy who saved America with the New Deal. He's also viewed as a good guy for taking on the "America First" people, who are still the most hated people in American history.

    Replies: @whorefinder, @Gabriel M, @Random Dude on the Internet

    They will most likely do the same thing as they have done with the founding fathers. One minute they set up a nation dedicated to the principles of equality, civil rights and welcoming Muslims (or whatever), the next minute they were all racist slaveholders and back and forth ad infinitum.

    Since Leftism is a process not a set of ideas, and since for the last 100 years the only surviving institutions to tear down have been ones that previous Leftists erected, they have no choice but to engage in such doublethink. They’re pretty good at it.

  21. OT

    Both Ann Coulter and Mickey Kaus are pushing for Trump to stay hardline on immigration — along with economic populism/nationalism, it’s a big reason he won the election — after his nomination of Haley to the UN, people are rightly concerned — also, programs for refugees are administered by the Executive Branch — Trump should act as forcefully as possible there too.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @eah

    Haley? That's nothing. SoS shortlist is Romney, Giuliani, Corker, Petraeus. Names besides Kobach are being floated for DHS. Mnuchin is Goldman-Sachs-Soros-Hollywood.

    Is Bannon out to lunch?

    , @Chrisnonymous
    @eah

    I doubt very much that Trump pays attention to either of them. I hope he stays true on immigration, but I wouldn't be surprised if doesn't.

    Trump is was big gamble, but there was no other choice. In the early stages of the election, many people on this blog admitted as much and the situation hasn't changed.

  22. 1980s saw a boom in Great Depression era-set films (i.e. the 1930s)—50 years before.

    Annie (1982)–all about the Depression.
    The Untouchables (1987)–1930-31
    Raiders of the Lost Ark (1981)—set in 1936
    Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom (1984)–set in 1935
    A Christmas Story (1983)— 1930s. No year is mentioned, but the child in the story is 9 years old, it’s based on the life of Jean Sheperd, who was 9 years old in 1930/31, and the story makes no mention of WW2 or the Cold War, so its most likely 1930s.
    Ironweed (1987)–Depression-era Albany
    The Color Purple (1982)–1930s Georgia.
    Once Upon a Time in America (1984)–although sprawling, movie centers on action depicted in 1932/33.
    The Purple Rose of Cairo (1985)—set in 1935.

    Bonuses:

    Scarface (1983) , a movie remake of Scarface (1932), a roman a clef about Al Capone.
    Batman (1989) which, though set in modern times, was almost completely Art Deco in design (1920s-30s style), but Gotham is portrayed as in economic trouble (i.e. 1930s)
    Return to Oz (1985)–Sequel to Wizard of Oz (1939)
    Gandhi (1982)–much of Gandhi’s work in India in the 1930s depicted

    • Replies: @a Newsreader
    @whorefinder


    -A Christmas Story (1983)— 1930s. No year is mentioned, but the child in the story is 9 years old, it’s based on the life of Jean Sheperd, who was 9 years old in 1930/31, and the story makes no mention of WW2 or the Cold War, so its most likely 1930s.
     
    There are a couple pop culture references--The Wizard of Oz in particular--that make me think the setting is at least a decade later. Of course, it could just be an anachronism.
  23. In addition to Pearl Harbor, I think the Niihau Incident might be mentioned as another instance of understated “political tensions growing”.

    Very short version: right after Pearl Harbor, a Japanese plane crashlands on the Hawaiian island of Niihau, and the Japanese immigrants and second-generation immigrants there all take the Japanese pilot’s side against America in ensuing shootout.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Bacon Eater

    This huge Native Hawaiian eventually killed the armed Japanese pilot who had taken control of the island -- with his bare hands.

    Replies: @bored identity

    , @Anonymous
    @Bacon Eater

    I just read the Wikipedia entry of the incident.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niihau_incident

    Talk about a great plot for a ready-made movie!

    Nah, not PC enough. Perhaps an anglo strafing an African coastal village and then seeing the consequences after crash-landing near said village?

    Replies: @Anon

  24. In retrospect, it turned out that all you had to do was ask Japanese people which side they were on. If they swore loyalty, you could rely on their oath. If they swore undying fealty to the Emperor, as about 5,000 did, well, you could rely on those guys to be a handful. The Japanese in 1940s America didn’t seem to have much concept of taqiyya.

    But mistakes get made in wartime, especially right after the biggest defeat in American history. FDR had a lot of decisions to make in 1942. Rounding up Japanese American citizens on the West Coast was one he screwed up.

    Curious where you’re getting the 5,000 figure…but this overall point is important and usually overlooked in the rush to gain Victimization Points and bash the US.

    In fact I knew nothing about it till about 20 years ago while cruising the Uwajimaya bookstore in Seattle’s International District and ran across a book by a Japanese author, nonfiction, pointing out that there were thousands of Japanese in the US who swore fealty to the chrysanthemum. I believe it was his memoir of life in one of the Japanese camps. (He seemed pretty positive about it overall, a surprise to me, even as he documented stresses on his family.)

    I had no idea. The shock I felt was intense. I tried looking it up at the time but didn’t get far and by then the men in my family with PTO experience/connections were all gone.

    My dad served in the USN, PTO, and had plenty of stories about kamikaze attacks on his logistics unit and what he and his buddies saw when big broken ships were towed in for repair. He told that in euphemisms when he talked about it at all. But later in life when I better understood DadSpeak, I realized that my dad had had the experience of hauling chunks of other men’s bodies out of mangled steel hulls, often a long time after they’d gotten there. Often finding/confronting them unexpectedly in the middle of other work. I’ve seen my share of torn flesh, but that’s just…brutal. I can think of nothing like it in my lifetime except the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks.

    When discussing the CA internment camps, he spoke of it in epidemiological terms, which I found notable since he despised FDR, but still spoke in a measured way on this particular topic: FDR’s administration couldn’t determine for sure how many Japanese had mixed or traitorous loyalties, or how many imperial loyalists would influence family members and friends. Particularly if the US’s fortunes waned in the course of battle. There was also the matter, he said, of isolating populations (white and Japanese) from one another in the interest of social cohesion. He was also of the view that many Japanese might be safer there.

    Plus he’d observe how conditions in the stateside internment camps were far better than those the Japanese inflicted on POWs.

    https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/prisoners-of-war-of-the-japanese-1939-1945

    https://www.archives.gov/publications/prologue/2003/winter/hell-ships-1.html

    I don’t see how one would conclude after a sudden attack that killed thousands of Americans and destroyed an entire fleet that people of the attacking nation could be counted on to be honest on the matter of their loyalties. Which handful would one trust or not? How would one tell? What could be the costs of being wrong?

    More to the point for today: does the US get any points ever for bending over backwards not to make the same choices later in our history…and more recently in doing so allow into our nation tens of thousands of actively hostile, unvetted enemy warriors who cause mayhem and compromise our society and its people?

    For how long do today’s white men have to remain incarcerated in blame for the choices of the past?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Olorin

    Tule Lake is where the hardcore Imperial loyalists were sent. They caused a lot of trouble there, but on the other hand they weren't surreptitious about their loyalties, just as RAF fliers in POW camps caused no end of trouble for their German captors.

    I suspect that the Imperial intelligence services would have been happier if more Japanese in America had been two-faced, but there aren't many examples of that.

    In general, the Japanese militarist ideology of the age wasn't good at inculcating the slippery traits. That ideology encouraged lots of kinds of bad behavior, but not hypocrisy and deceit. The 1940s Japanese tended to be very in your face. The samurai ideology encouraged arrogance, aggression, and national egotism, but was not conducive to covert action since the national mood was so overt.

    Replies: @Foreign Expert, @Spork

    , @Buffalo Joe
    @Olorin

    Olorin, My Dad also served in the Pacific during WWII and he told me when I was young that he was not in combat, but his service ribbons have two battle stars and his ship was at Okinawa. I thank Steve for this article about the mistreatment of stateside Italians and Italian-Americans during WWII. I had no prior knowledge of this. My father and two of his brothers served/fought in WWII as did three of my Mother's brothers. They were at Okinawa, The Bulge, Anzio, North Africa and other battles. Olorin your comment is very well stated. Thank you and thank you Steve. I think I'll go dig out my Dad's old photos and get weepy.

  25. I believe Canada and Brazil also relocated Japanese residents.

  26. Rounding up Japanese American citizens on the West Coast was one he screwed up.

    Hindsight is always 20/20. There were ‘real’ Japanese collaborators in the Japanese community who had an affinity for the mother country. They could have created some murder and mayhem along the West Coast – a real fear at the time. I don’t believe there were any ‘terrorist’ attacks by sympathetic Japanese at the time, so internment can be seen as a positive in that respect.

    Overwrought anxiety on the part of the government and American citizens? Again, hindsight is not a good judge of the ‘moment’ in which things are happening. Since we want to believe in the benign spirit of the ‘good Japanese’ of that time, we take unnecessary guilt and try to redeem ourselves with payouts to descendants and with scribed damnations in our press. Personally, I feel no regret for what was done during those trying times to protect the American people.

    Many wish that the government would take that attitude today, instead of letting into the country the very people who commit the most atrocious crimes – mass murder with any weapon at hand. I think of the Americans whose lives have been disrupted and complicated without just cause; whose once peaceful communities have become hell-holes after ‘refugees’ have been introduced into the environs. I think of my nieces who have to put up with the third-world behavior of third-world men who assault them physically and verbally. Yesterday, they did not have to put up with such behavior because it did not exist in their world; today, they fear to go to school, shopping, or to any event without male accompaniment.

    At the time, there was real fear of Japanese terror in the homeland – think of the destruction and lost lives if only a few ‘disturbed’ Japanese decided to give their lives for their ‘home’ country. And compare that to what we do today: We invite the terror into our midst, refuse to recognize it as a terror, and, absurdly, increase the masses of other-world peoples who mean to supplant us.

    You can be a fool, but, please, at your own expense, not mine and my loved ones.

    • Replies: @bomag
    @Hubbub


    Yesterday, they did not have to put up with such behavior because it did not exist in their world; today, they fear to go to school, shopping, or to any event without male accompaniment.
     
    This is the sort of thing that doesn't get counted when adding up the cost of immigration.

    And the Inviters(tm) preach to us about the advantages of diversity; having more bodies sloshing around in the bucket of Earth; and the past sins we'll absolve by importing the Other for feeding and breeding. But these Inviters(tm) are no where to be found when things go sour. They should at least post a bond, which the victims of their experiment can draw upon for some compensation.
  27. @whorefinder
    @M_Young


    ‘Pearl Harbor’ has all the great cinematography and CGI and all, as the scene in the clip in the post shows. And it’s neat up to a point.
     
    Pearl Harbor (2001) was a flop and critically attacked. It was so hated the guys from South Park made a whole song about how bad it was in Team America: World Police :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9jS4gppIFs

    Pearl Harbor's flopping was a combination of things.

    First it was backlash against star Ben Affleck , who had wildly overextended himself in public thanks to dating Jennifer Lopez. "Bennifer" was so much in the tabloids and Affleck was starring in so many sub-par-but-hyped movies at the time that people were vomitously sick of him. (Daredevil, anyone?) The backlash against Affleck was so bad he retreated behind the camera for years to rehab his image, and yet even then there was some carryover when he was cast as Batman in the recent spate of DC comics movies----many people were bitching about it, calling him Batfleck, and bringing up J'Lo and Daredevil all over again. Thankfully for Affleck, his Batman turned out to have been the best thing about the recent Justice League films.

    Second, it's the undying hatred crticis/Lefties has for Michael Bay. Bay probably would have been a stupdenously-lauded silent film director, (likely Westerns/action films of the era; I could picture him and Douglas Fairbanks working together a lot), but in the era of sound and p.c and where heroes are supposed to all spout believable-p.c.-tirades and action is for kids he's ridiculed.

    Bay tells his stories visually and with the "male gaze" (Megan Fox, anyone?) and macho male mindset as his POV, and loves special effects, but critics want more feminized talky-talky stuff and hate his love for children's cartoons of the 80s and his overall love of macho masculinity. Yet he made The Rock, one of the best movies of the 1990s, and makes a mint at the box office. Pearl Harbor was one of his few flops, and critics jumped on him for it. Bay reminds me of Cecil B. DeMille in how the latter was criticized as artless and yet made more memorable scenes than the art-house set.

    Third, WW2 movie fatigue was setting in by the time of Pearl Harbor (2001). Schlinder's List (1993) had re-ignited the WW2 Hollywood film--a genre had been shunted aside in the late 70s and 80s in favor of the Vietnam War films---and Braveheart (1995) made epics popular again, so Saving Private Ryan (1998) was feasible.

    And the 1990s saw the 50th Anniversary of WW2 and the realization that all those old vets were dying off, so there was a nostalgia craze for it as well. (50 years later seems to be a magic number for filmmakers to get interested in an era again; the 1970s saw a huge boom in movies about the 1920s and bootlegging and the like; the 1950s saw a boom in movies about the turn of the 20th Century and the end of the Gay Nineties).

    But by 2001 the boom was over and people were kind of over WW2 films by then. After Pearl Harbor, WW2 films tended to be smaller budget dramas, although Tarantino's Inglorious Basterds was an exception. But nobody was making a WW2 film as their tentpole summer flick after Pearl Harbor.

    Replies: @whorefinder, @The Man From K Street, @Clyde, @SPMoore8, @Thirdeye, @Anonymous

    I think your “50-year look back” theory is spot on, but I think the Affleck and Bay revulsion theories, while probable in ordinary circumstances, were really more bad luck in timing. If the film had had some post-production glitches, it might have been postponed to be a Thanksgiving release –and in the immediate post-9/11 atmosphere, the same movie about a similar national disaster would have been a monster commercial and critical hit.

  28. It’s pretty apples-to-oranges to compare interning Japanese during WWII to pausing Muslim immigration now, or extreme vetting or whatever else. “Extreme” (i.e., “Sensible”) vetting doesn’t involve rounding up American citizens or taking their property or any of the other Fascism porn fantasies the left keeps coming up with.

    Let’s take it as given that it was a mistake to intern American Japanese during the war – although their trustworthiness is only obvious in hindsight. How about taking in Japanese immigrants during the war? Would that have been prudent? And when they got here, instead of demanding an oath of loyalty, or even asking them whose side they’re on, we could have told them it’s cool if they prefer the Emperor, and hey, we can let Pearl Harbor slide because you guys were just Punching Up.

    Surely we’d be able to trust all the Japanese to show up, right?

    WRT to Putin Madness in 2016, well at least the Japanese had gone through the formality of attacking us before we started panicking about having them here. Hillary was ready to have us shooting down Russian planes in Syria because of some alleged email hacking. Much more reasonable than that fascist Roosevelt!

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @ATX Hipster

    Thanks for that. I do despise how these lefty journalists write in unexamined premises so that the crux of the story is settled their way before the article even begins.

    The invidious comparison in this case is that measures against foreigners on the entirely rational basis of their professed beliefs are the same as measures against citizens based on their national descent.

    A non-invidious comparison would have been to the legal, rational and constitutional laws prohibiting professed Communists form entering the country. So of course the journalists don't make it.


    "Green: What would you say is the takeaway from all of this as we look ahead to more years of discrimination against different minority groups in the United States?"
     
    Ah, finally they want to discuss the extensive regime of government-sponsored discrimination against whites, straights, males and Christians! Oh, wait...
  29. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    @eah

    My father told me that he once was speaking to an Italian air force general whose unit had scores of F-104s. My father asked the Italian what their secret was. The West Germans were always complaining about how lethal the F-104 was to their pilots, but the Italians never did.

    "Oh, our pilots die too," the Italian general replied. "We just don't complain about it."

    Replies: @Anon, @Anonymous, @David In TN

    From “Ethnic Humor Around the World: A Comparative Analysis” by Christie Davies

    Quote:
    p. 191

    Ethnic jokes about “cowardly Italians” are largely a twentieth-century phenomenon and only really common after World War II. However, the comic image of the Italians as unwarlike is much older, as Roger Pinon has shown in his discussion of “the saying that “Itali sunt imbelles” – the Italians do not fight”, meaning that when confronted at the battle they flee at the first opportunity” (1980, 76). Pinon has found references to Italian cowardice as far back as the medieval period, when French and Germans alike mocked the alleged lack of martial courage of the Lombards (see Pinon 1980, 76-79). The unwarlike reputation of the Italians only became securely established however, in the sixteenth century, when it was referred to by writers as diverse as Rabelais, Machiavelli, Erasmus and Montaigne. (27) For Machiavelli it was a political problem calling for a solution, for the others a source of amusement, a kind of ethnic joke.

    pp. 192-3

    The Italian states employed mercenaries on short-term contracts who developed no loyalty to or identification with the state that employed them. Macaulay, in his essay on Machiavelli, has summed up the problems that this created:

    “The richest and most enlightened part of the world was left undefended to the assaults of every barbarous invader, to the brutality of Switzerland, the insolence of France, and the fierce rapacity of Aragon. The moral effects which followed from this state of things were still more remarkable.

    Among the rude nations which lay beyond the Alps, valour was absolutely indispensable. Without it none could be eminent; few could be secure. Cowardice was, therefore, naturally considered as the foulest reproach. Among the polished Italians, enriched by commerce, governed by law, and passionately attached to literature, everything was done by superiority of intelligence. Their very wars, more pacific than the peace of their neighbors, required rather civil than military qualifications. Hence while courage was the point of honour in other countries, ingenuity became the point of honour in Italy…

    Military courage, the boast of the sottish German, of the frivolous and pratting Frenchman, of the romantic and arrogant Spaniard, he (the Italian ruler) neither possesses nor values. He shuns danger, not because he is insensible to shame, but because in the society in which he lives timidity has ceased to be shameful.”

    Italians growing up in such a society develop a strong capacity for loyalty to the small group of people known to them personally but may well have a weak attachment to impersonal institutions such as the army or other bureaucratic institutions.

    p. 194

    No way has yet been found in which the strong loyalties that Italians owe to smaller groups can be harnessed by state organizations such as the army, and indeed these loyalties may contribute to an organization’s disintegration into squabbling groups of rival patrons and clients. The result has been a nation whose members have shown themselves to be courageous and indeed sometimes brutal members of feuding kinsmen or small guerilla bands but not effective soldiers in a large army. As Peter Nichols (1973, 53) has put it, the Italians are “capable of marvellous feats of personal bravery but reject fighting as the pursuit of fools.”

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Anon

    Luigi Barzini's book "The Italians" has various accounts of battles the Italians almost won during the days of the Medicis and Machiavelli, and he points out that in World War I, the Italians were constantly starting new uphill offensives against the Austrians in the Alps. Unfortunately, in the fall of 1917, the Germans helped out their Austrian pals and crushed the Italians, as described in Hemingway's "A Farewell to Arms." But, Barzini notes, the Italians eventually made a stand on a river deep in Italy and finally repulsed even the mighty Germans.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @tamako

    , @Steve Sailer
    @Anon

    Luigi Barzini's book "The Italians" has various accounts of battles the Italians almost won during the days of the Medicis and Machiavelli, and he points out that in World War I, the Italians were constantly starting new uphill offensives against the Austrians in the Alps. Unfortunately, in the fall of 1917, the Germans helped out their Austrian pals and crushed the Italians, as described in Hemingway's "A Farewell to Arms." But, Barzini notes, the Italians eventually made a stand on a river deep in Italy and finally repulsed even the mighty Germans.

    Replies: @whorefinder, @Anonymous, @Buffalo Joe

    , @Grumpy
    @Anon


    ...a strong capacity for loyalty to the small group of people known to them personally but may well have a weak attachment to impersonal institutions such as the army...
     
    I read this characterization and immediately thought of modern Minnesotans, who are very insular people. Despite its ingrained, widespread, and male-dominated outdoor culture of hunting, boating, snowmobiles, etc., Minnesota has a very low military enlistment rate.

    Enlistment by state: http://tinyurl.com/36u93l9

    The demographics of Minnesota changed enormously after 1861, when the young state sent thousands of volunteers to the Union Army.
  30. @JohnnyD
    I don't think they'll throw FDR down the memory hole, just yet. Many people still admire FDR as the guy who saved America with the New Deal. He's also viewed as a good guy for taking on the "America First" people, who are still the most hated people in American history.

    Replies: @whorefinder, @Gabriel M, @Random Dude on the Internet

    FDR is one of those heroes that they will just continually reinvent for modern times to avoid being seen as a wrongthinker. While campus Marxists want to tear down heroes, the Democrats know that they need to have some of history’s heroes be on their side. FDR and Lincoln (even though he was a Republican) will always be those guys. I’m sure Barack will be sainted and be included in this category, especially since it may be an especially long time until we see a non-white face be President again and even then will a Latino face have the same impact as the first black president? I really doubt it, even among Latinos themselves.

    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    @Random Dude on the Internet

    I very much doubt the first "Latino" president will make much of an impact as he'll just be another white guy whose name happens to be Ramirez or some such. He's not going to look like Danny Trejo.

    Replies: @Desiderius

  31. There might have been abuses, but the internement of Japanese Americans in WW2 wasn’t in itself wrong, given the loyalty of many Japanese Americans to the Emperor. Certainly it was more humane than Stalin’s treatment of those ethnic minorities considered sympathetic to the Germans during the war (Russian Germans, but also a lot of Muslim people from the Caucasus, like the Chechens)

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Andy

    I believe that interned Japanese citizens were paid at the same rate as privates in the Army.

    It's tendentious but also informative to note that you could say that about 10 million Americans were interned on military bases due to the draft.

    Replies: @Jack D

    , @Dr. X
    @Andy


    There might have been abuses, but the internement of Japanese Americans in WW2 wasn’t in itself wrong
     
    Correct. Article 1, Sec. 9 of the Constitution allows for the suspension of habeas corpus in times of invasion and rebellion and when "the public safety may require it."

    Certainly it was more humane than Stalin’s treatment of those ethnic minorities considered sympathetic to the Germans
     
    Certainly it was more humane than the way just about EVERY other belligerent treated POWs and other assorted internees -- particularly the way the Japanese treated Americans during the Bataan Death March or the Chinese at Nanking.

    70 years after World War II ended, only fools with a lot of time on their hands are crying their eyes out over the alleged mistreatment of perceived Axis sympathizers. War is hell. The Italian guy who lost $26,000 on his fishing boat didn't get his legs blown off, didn't get his sons killed, didn't get his family gassed in a death camp or his wife gang-raped by soldiers, did he? Sounds like he made out pretty good compared to a lot of other people.

    Replies: @Captain Tripps

  32. @eah
    OT

    Both Ann Coulter and Mickey Kaus are pushing for Trump to stay hardline on immigration -- along with economic populism/nationalism, it's a big reason he won the election -- after his nomination of Haley to the UN, people are rightly concerned -- also, programs for refugees are administered by the Executive Branch -- Trump should act as forcefully as possible there too.

    https://twitter.com/AnnCoulter/status/804229054182424576

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Chrisnonymous

    Haley? That’s nothing. SoS shortlist is Romney, Giuliani, Corker, Petraeus. Names besides Kobach are being floated for DHS. Mnuchin is Goldman-Sachs-Soros-Hollywood.

    Is Bannon out to lunch?

  33. @M_Young
    Kinda off topic, but this provides me a forum to express something I've long felt. 'Pearl Harbor' has all the great cinematography and CGI and all, as the scene in the clip in the post shows. And it's neat up to a point. But comparing that to the same scene in Tora Tora Tora, I've always felt that the latter was superior. Not, obviously, because of technical achievements, but rather because of limitations. The scenes were far closer to what you'd actually have seen, say, if torpedo bombers were coming at your ship. It is also interesting to note that 25 years after Pearl Harbor Americans and Japanese could collaborate on a movie, and treat each other as honorable foes, or at least recognize some honor in their opponents.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNtsBB5dPxk

    Replies: @whorefinder, @Steve Sailer, @SFG

    We won so ridiculously there was no point in their continuing hostilities. After Hiroshima and Nagasaki they quite reasonably figured they had no chance.

    There’s still resentment, but at this point they’re more afraid of China…which has a lot more to be bitter about than a sneak attack leading up to a war. Remember the Rape of Nanking?

    • Replies: @OFWHAP
    @SFG

    China has more of a grudge to hold against its Communist overlords. They spent more time undermining the KMT war effort than fighting the Japanese. Chairman Mao was eternally grateful to the Japanese for softening up Chiang Kai Shek and the KMT. Furthermore Stalin used the Chinese as a buffer to prevent an invasion against the USSR.

  34. @Olorin

    In retrospect, it turned out that all you had to do was ask Japanese people which side they were on. If they swore loyalty, you could rely on their oath. If they swore undying fealty to the Emperor, as about 5,000 did, well, you could rely on those guys to be a handful. The Japanese in 1940s America didn’t seem to have much concept of taqiyya.

    But mistakes get made in wartime, especially right after the biggest defeat in American history. FDR had a lot of decisions to make in 1942. Rounding up Japanese American citizens on the West Coast was one he screwed up.

     

    Curious where you're getting the 5,000 figure...but this overall point is important and usually overlooked in the rush to gain Victimization Points and bash the US.

    In fact I knew nothing about it till about 20 years ago while cruising the Uwajimaya bookstore in Seattle's International District and ran across a book by a Japanese author, nonfiction, pointing out that there were thousands of Japanese in the US who swore fealty to the chrysanthemum. I believe it was his memoir of life in one of the Japanese camps. (He seemed pretty positive about it overall, a surprise to me, even as he documented stresses on his family.)

    I had no idea. The shock I felt was intense. I tried looking it up at the time but didn't get far and by then the men in my family with PTO experience/connections were all gone.

    My dad served in the USN, PTO, and had plenty of stories about kamikaze attacks on his logistics unit and what he and his buddies saw when big broken ships were towed in for repair. He told that in euphemisms when he talked about it at all. But later in life when I better understood DadSpeak, I realized that my dad had had the experience of hauling chunks of other men's bodies out of mangled steel hulls, often a long time after they'd gotten there. Often finding/confronting them unexpectedly in the middle of other work. I've seen my share of torn flesh, but that's just...brutal. I can think of nothing like it in my lifetime except the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks.

    When discussing the CA internment camps, he spoke of it in epidemiological terms, which I found notable since he despised FDR, but still spoke in a measured way on this particular topic: FDR's administration couldn't determine for sure how many Japanese had mixed or traitorous loyalties, or how many imperial loyalists would influence family members and friends. Particularly if the US's fortunes waned in the course of battle. There was also the matter, he said, of isolating populations (white and Japanese) from one another in the interest of social cohesion. He was also of the view that many Japanese might be safer there.

    Plus he'd observe how conditions in the stateside internment camps were far better than those the Japanese inflicted on POWs.

    https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/prisoners-of-war-of-the-japanese-1939-1945

    https://www.archives.gov/publications/prologue/2003/winter/hell-ships-1.html

    I don't see how one would conclude after a sudden attack that killed thousands of Americans and destroyed an entire fleet that people of the attacking nation could be counted on to be honest on the matter of their loyalties. Which handful would one trust or not? How would one tell? What could be the costs of being wrong?

    More to the point for today: does the US get any points ever for bending over backwards not to make the same choices later in our history...and more recently in doing so allow into our nation tens of thousands of actively hostile, unvetted enemy warriors who cause mayhem and compromise our society and its people?

    For how long do today's white men have to remain incarcerated in blame for the choices of the past?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Buffalo Joe

    Tule Lake is where the hardcore Imperial loyalists were sent. They caused a lot of trouble there, but on the other hand they weren’t surreptitious about their loyalties, just as RAF fliers in POW camps caused no end of trouble for their German captors.

    I suspect that the Imperial intelligence services would have been happier if more Japanese in America had been two-faced, but there aren’t many examples of that.

    In general, the Japanese militarist ideology of the age wasn’t good at inculcating the slippery traits. That ideology encouraged lots of kinds of bad behavior, but not hypocrisy and deceit. The 1940s Japanese tended to be very in your face. The samurai ideology encouraged arrogance, aggression, and national egotism, but was not conducive to covert action since the national mood was so overt.

    • Replies: @Foreign Expert
    @Steve Sailer

    Many years ago I saw an NHK documentary on the Japanese Americans during the war. Perhaps because it was a Japanese production, several of the older ones let down their guard and said they hoped, 日本 が 勝てば いい.japan would win.

    , @Spork
    @Steve Sailer

    Ninjas, although lauded by foreigners, were traditionally regarded as dishonorable in Japanese society, since they specialized in assassinations, espionage and other underhanded forms of warfare. They were contrasted with the honorable samurai, who weren't supposed to engage in such practices. (IIRC, one of the most famous ninja operations in Japanese history involved the assassin dressing as a woman to get past the target's security guards. No samurai would do something like that.)

  35. @Bacon Eater
    In addition to Pearl Harbor, I think the Niihau Incident might be mentioned as another instance of understated "political tensions growing".

    Very short version: right after Pearl Harbor, a Japanese plane crashlands on the Hawaiian island of Niihau, and the Japanese immigrants and second-generation immigrants there all take the Japanese pilot's side against America in ensuing shootout.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Anonymous

    This huge Native Hawaiian eventually killed the armed Japanese pilot who had taken control of the island — with his bare hands.

    • Replies: @bored identity
    @Steve Sailer

    Steve, I'm really confused:

    Did Maui kill flying Godzilla with his humangous shovels, or the Jap Zeronaut took control over Niihau with his tiny yellow bare hands?

  36. Yes, it’s difficult now to imagine that there was a time when cooking pasta was such an alien concept that people once had to get spaghetti catered.

    (Or that in some areas of the country, people thought Dean Martin was singing “Like a big piece of pie” in That’s Amore because they had no idea what pizza was.)

    • Replies: @Natureboy
    @The Only Catholic Unionist

    In my "old America" hometown, pizza was unknown until the late 50's/early 60's. A Jewish guy recognized the opportunity to sell pizza to the out of town college girls from up North.
    My grandparents always considered pizza as a sort of foreign food. My maternal grandparents never ate pizza as long as I knew them.

    , @Je Suis Charlie Martel
    @The Only Catholic Unionist

    IIRC, Russell Baker decided to become a writer in middle school when he wrote about his country family's first experience trying to eat spaghetti and the classroom cracked up...

    , @Thea
    @The Only Catholic Unionist

    Yogurt was still quite exotic in the 1950s

  37. @Andy
    There might have been abuses, but the internement of Japanese Americans in WW2 wasn't in itself wrong, given the loyalty of many Japanese Americans to the Emperor. Certainly it was more humane than Stalin's treatment of those ethnic minorities considered sympathetic to the Germans during the war (Russian Germans, but also a lot of Muslim people from the Caucasus, like the Chechens)

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Dr. X

    I believe that interned Japanese citizens were paid at the same rate as privates in the Army.

    It’s tendentious but also informative to note that you could say that about 10 million Americans were interned on military bases due to the draft.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Steve Sailer

    Privates in those days made only $50/week so that was small consolation. Many of the interned Japanese had had businesses and properties that were confiscated and proper compensation was not paid until decades later. The internment was understandable as war time panic but it was never the right thing to do.

    Still, the modern leftist view is to focus on everything bad about America and none of the good. America has a 200+ year human rights record that would be the envy of almost any other country. The internment was one small blemish on a magnificent Constitutional framework but it gets talked about endlessly instead of the other 99% of times when our brilliantly designed Constitution worked as the Founding Fathers intended. America is like Michelangelo's David but all these people want to talk about is a chip on a toe.

    Replies: @Whoever

  38. @wren
    It is interesting to read about all the Japanese Americans fighting the Germans and Italians in WWII, knowing that there were also plenty of German Americans fighting the Japanese.

    Do/did we have Afghan Americans fighting the Iraqis and Iraqi Americans fighting the Taliban?

    Replies: @Romanian, @bomag, @Captain Tripps

    Not a lot of them, since fewer Muslim American servicemen have died in those wars than the number of American servicemen killed by their Muslim comrades in the US military in various “workplace incidents”.

    • Replies: @AnotherDad
    @Romanian


    Not a lot of them, since fewer Muslim American servicemen have died in those wars than the number of American servicemen killed by their Muslim comrades in the US military in various “workplace incidents”.
     
    How dare you besmirch the wonderful Khan family, those most heroic of Americans ever?

    Worse by attempting to point out that the contribution of Muslim American soldiers is actually a net negative and ergo casting racist aspersions on Mr. Khan's patriotic business of waving in as many more Muslim immigrants (as come up with the money to pay him) as something less than being critical American enterprise upon which our values and security rest. Shame!

    Replies: @Jack D

  39. @Anon
    @Steve Sailer

    From "Ethnic Humor Around the World: A Comparative Analysis" by Christie Davies

    Quote:
    p. 191

    Ethnic jokes about "cowardly Italians" are largely a twentieth-century phenomenon and only really common after World War II. However, the comic image of the Italians as unwarlike is much older, as Roger Pinon has shown in his discussion of "the saying that "Itali sunt imbelles" - the Italians do not fight", meaning that when confronted at the battle they flee at the first opportunity" (1980, 76). Pinon has found references to Italian cowardice as far back as the medieval period, when French and Germans alike mocked the alleged lack of martial courage of the Lombards (see Pinon 1980, 76-79). The unwarlike reputation of the Italians only became securely established however, in the sixteenth century, when it was referred to by writers as diverse as Rabelais, Machiavelli, Erasmus and Montaigne. (27) For Machiavelli it was a political problem calling for a solution, for the others a source of amusement, a kind of ethnic joke.

    pp. 192-3

    The Italian states employed mercenaries on short-term contracts who developed no loyalty to or identification with the state that employed them. Macaulay, in his essay on Machiavelli, has summed up the problems that this created:

    "The richest and most enlightened part of the world was left undefended to the assaults of every barbarous invader, to the brutality of Switzerland, the insolence of France, and the fierce rapacity of Aragon. The moral effects which followed from this state of things were still more remarkable.

    Among the rude nations which lay beyond the Alps, valour was absolutely indispensable. Without it none could be eminent; few could be secure. Cowardice was, therefore, naturally considered as the foulest reproach. Among the polished Italians, enriched by commerce, governed by law, and passionately attached to literature, everything was done by superiority of intelligence. Their very wars, more pacific than the peace of their neighbors, required rather civil than military qualifications. Hence while courage was the point of honour in other countries, ingenuity became the point of honour in Italy...

    Military courage, the boast of the sottish German, of the frivolous and pratting Frenchman, of the romantic and arrogant Spaniard, he (the Italian ruler) neither possesses nor values. He shuns danger, not because he is insensible to shame, but because in the society in which he lives timidity has ceased to be shameful."

    Italians growing up in such a society develop a strong capacity for loyalty to the small group of people known to them personally but may well have a weak attachment to impersonal institutions such as the army or other bureaucratic institutions.

    p. 194

    No way has yet been found in which the strong loyalties that Italians owe to smaller groups can be harnessed by state organizations such as the army, and indeed these loyalties may contribute to an organization's disintegration into squabbling groups of rival patrons and clients. The result has been a nation whose members have shown themselves to be courageous and indeed sometimes brutal members of feuding kinsmen or small guerilla bands but not effective soldiers in a large army. As Peter Nichols (1973, 53) has put it, the Italians are "capable of marvellous feats of personal bravery but reject fighting as the pursuit of fools."

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Steve Sailer, @Grumpy

    Luigi Barzini’s book “The Italians” has various accounts of battles the Italians almost won during the days of the Medicis and Machiavelli, and he points out that in World War I, the Italians were constantly starting new uphill offensives against the Austrians in the Alps. Unfortunately, in the fall of 1917, the Germans helped out their Austrian pals and crushed the Italians, as described in Hemingway’s “A Farewell to Arms.” But, Barzini notes, the Italians eventually made a stand on a river deep in Italy and finally repulsed even the mighty Germans.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Steve Sailer

    ....and a fat lot of good it did them too.

    , @tamako
    @Steve Sailer


    ...in World War I, the Italians were constantly starting new uphill offensives against the Austrians in the Alps...
     
    Let me remind you that these frontal assaults only happened because they put a disciplinarian in charge who wanted them. Even then, all these assaults did were wear down the Italians to the point where the final battle of the Isonzo resulted in the collapse of their front.
    And, the Germans were only repulsed because of logistics, the ball and chain of (then-)contemporary warfare.

    The prior statements do not disprove your point.
  40. @Anon
    @Steve Sailer

    From "Ethnic Humor Around the World: A Comparative Analysis" by Christie Davies

    Quote:
    p. 191

    Ethnic jokes about "cowardly Italians" are largely a twentieth-century phenomenon and only really common after World War II. However, the comic image of the Italians as unwarlike is much older, as Roger Pinon has shown in his discussion of "the saying that "Itali sunt imbelles" - the Italians do not fight", meaning that when confronted at the battle they flee at the first opportunity" (1980, 76). Pinon has found references to Italian cowardice as far back as the medieval period, when French and Germans alike mocked the alleged lack of martial courage of the Lombards (see Pinon 1980, 76-79). The unwarlike reputation of the Italians only became securely established however, in the sixteenth century, when it was referred to by writers as diverse as Rabelais, Machiavelli, Erasmus and Montaigne. (27) For Machiavelli it was a political problem calling for a solution, for the others a source of amusement, a kind of ethnic joke.

    pp. 192-3

    The Italian states employed mercenaries on short-term contracts who developed no loyalty to or identification with the state that employed them. Macaulay, in his essay on Machiavelli, has summed up the problems that this created:

    "The richest and most enlightened part of the world was left undefended to the assaults of every barbarous invader, to the brutality of Switzerland, the insolence of France, and the fierce rapacity of Aragon. The moral effects which followed from this state of things were still more remarkable.

    Among the rude nations which lay beyond the Alps, valour was absolutely indispensable. Without it none could be eminent; few could be secure. Cowardice was, therefore, naturally considered as the foulest reproach. Among the polished Italians, enriched by commerce, governed by law, and passionately attached to literature, everything was done by superiority of intelligence. Their very wars, more pacific than the peace of their neighbors, required rather civil than military qualifications. Hence while courage was the point of honour in other countries, ingenuity became the point of honour in Italy...

    Military courage, the boast of the sottish German, of the frivolous and pratting Frenchman, of the romantic and arrogant Spaniard, he (the Italian ruler) neither possesses nor values. He shuns danger, not because he is insensible to shame, but because in the society in which he lives timidity has ceased to be shameful."

    Italians growing up in such a society develop a strong capacity for loyalty to the small group of people known to them personally but may well have a weak attachment to impersonal institutions such as the army or other bureaucratic institutions.

    p. 194

    No way has yet been found in which the strong loyalties that Italians owe to smaller groups can be harnessed by state organizations such as the army, and indeed these loyalties may contribute to an organization's disintegration into squabbling groups of rival patrons and clients. The result has been a nation whose members have shown themselves to be courageous and indeed sometimes brutal members of feuding kinsmen or small guerilla bands but not effective soldiers in a large army. As Peter Nichols (1973, 53) has put it, the Italians are "capable of marvellous feats of personal bravery but reject fighting as the pursuit of fools."

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Steve Sailer, @Grumpy

    Luigi Barzini’s book “The Italians” has various accounts of battles the Italians almost won during the days of the Medicis and Machiavelli, and he points out that in World War I, the Italians were constantly starting new uphill offensives against the Austrians in the Alps. Unfortunately, in the fall of 1917, the Germans helped out their Austrian pals and crushed the Italians, as described in Hemingway’s “A Farewell to Arms.” But, Barzini notes, the Italians eventually made a stand on a river deep in Italy and finally repulsed even the mighty Germans.

    • Replies: @whorefinder
    @Steve Sailer

    "Italy" as a nation-concept really only took hold in the 19th C. thanks to Napoleon and ensuing Romantic nationalistic movements. However, as any Italian could tell you, Italians are still separate, and constantly talking about separation and rebellion--notably, the North of Italy wants to secede from the rest.

    After the Roman Empire fell, Italy split up into various smaller states that never really unified (unless some conqueror swept in and subjugated them for a period). Venice became a wealthy trading Republic more connected with the East than West, Florence and Rome battled each other for regional and cultural dominance, Sicily became a separate island stronghold for Muslims first, then Normans, then a bunch of rival mafia clans.

    The lack of unity among Italians within Italy might explain some of their less-than-stellar battlefield reputation since reunification: they are more of a coalition of cranky factions who don't really like each other rather than a unified front.

    Replies: @Alec Leamas

    , @Anonymous
    @Steve Sailer

    I'm not Italian and always pooh-poohed the claims by Italian-Americans of being unfairly portrayed. But in light of the bitching by various special interest groups, or demographics, I am much more sympathetic to the Italians. There does seems to be quite a history of propaganda and bashing: Anti-Italianism

    , @Buffalo Joe
    @Steve Sailer

    Steve, Every Italian-American has heard the "jokes', I prefer insults, about Italians in warfare, but many Italian Americans distinquished themselves in WWII, including Sgt. John Basilone, USMC. Basilone was awarded the Medal of Honor for his heroic lone stand against a company of Japanese at Guadacanal and later at Iwo Jima, where he was awarded the Navy Cross. John was killed in action at Iwo. I may be wrong but I think Basilone and Audey Murphy are the only recipients of both a Medal of Honor and a Service Cross.

    Replies: @David In TN, @william munny

  41. @Steve Sailer
    @Anon

    Luigi Barzini's book "The Italians" has various accounts of battles the Italians almost won during the days of the Medicis and Machiavelli, and he points out that in World War I, the Italians were constantly starting new uphill offensives against the Austrians in the Alps. Unfortunately, in the fall of 1917, the Germans helped out their Austrian pals and crushed the Italians, as described in Hemingway's "A Farewell to Arms." But, Barzini notes, the Italians eventually made a stand on a river deep in Italy and finally repulsed even the mighty Germans.

    Replies: @whorefinder, @Anonymous, @Buffalo Joe

    “Italy” as a nation-concept really only took hold in the 19th C. thanks to Napoleon and ensuing Romantic nationalistic movements. However, as any Italian could tell you, Italians are still separate, and constantly talking about separation and rebellion–notably, the North of Italy wants to secede from the rest.

    After the Roman Empire fell, Italy split up into various smaller states that never really unified (unless some conqueror swept in and subjugated them for a period). Venice became a wealthy trading Republic more connected with the East than West, Florence and Rome battled each other for regional and cultural dominance, Sicily became a separate island stronghold for Muslims first, then Normans, then a bunch of rival mafia clans.

    The lack of unity among Italians within Italy might explain some of their less-than-stellar battlefield reputation since reunification: they are more of a coalition of cranky factions who don’t really like each other rather than a unified front.

    • Replies: @Alec Leamas
    @whorefinder

    As it is supposedly said in the North, "Garibaldi didn't unite Italy, he divided Africa."

  42. @wren
    It is interesting to read about all the Japanese Americans fighting the Germans and Italians in WWII, knowing that there were also plenty of German Americans fighting the Japanese.

    Do/did we have Afghan Americans fighting the Iraqis and Iraqi Americans fighting the Taliban?

    Replies: @Romanian, @bomag, @Captain Tripps

    Do/did we have Afghan Americans fighting the Iraqis and Iraqi Americans fighting the Taliban?

    Don’t know of any from my casual view. I would assume they would be Muslim, and that group joins the military at a rate only a third of their share of the population.

    Interesting tidbit:

    Muslim Soldiers Have Murdered as Many US Soldiers as the Enemy Have Killed Muslim Soldiers.

  43. @gcochran
    "treat each other as honorable foes"


    ~33% of American prisoners of the Japanese died in captivity. But look on the bright side: only a few were dissected or eaten.

    Replies: @M_Young, @Buffalo Joe

    Well, yes. Japanese were horrible to surrendered prisoners. Which makes it all the more incredible that in 1970 Americans and Japanese can make a movie like Tora Tora Tora. The men who fought in the Pacific then must have had an average age of about 50, yet didn’t go screaming about being ‘triggered’ by the film.

    • Replies: @utu
    @M_Young

    "Well, yes. Japanese were horrible to surrendered prisoners." - But still they were taking the prisoners unlike Americans who had to be given incentives like ice cream and three days leave for bringing a LIVE Japanese POW. Soviets took 600,000 Japanese POW's while Americans only 35,000 which is not surprising at 100:1 kill-to-prisoner ratio in late 1944 that improved to 7:1 in mid 1945 presumably with the ice cream incentive.

    Replies: @Boomstick, @Anonymous

  44. @Steve Sailer
    @Anon

    Luigi Barzini's book "The Italians" has various accounts of battles the Italians almost won during the days of the Medicis and Machiavelli, and he points out that in World War I, the Italians were constantly starting new uphill offensives against the Austrians in the Alps. Unfortunately, in the fall of 1917, the Germans helped out their Austrian pals and crushed the Italians, as described in Hemingway's "A Farewell to Arms." But, Barzini notes, the Italians eventually made a stand on a river deep in Italy and finally repulsed even the mighty Germans.

    Replies: @whorefinder, @Anonymous, @Buffalo Joe

    I’m not Italian and always pooh-poohed the claims by Italian-Americans of being unfairly portrayed. But in light of the bitching by various special interest groups, or demographics, I am much more sympathetic to the Italians. There does seems to be quite a history of propaganda and bashing: Anti-Italianism

  45. @Steve Sailer
    @Anon

    Luigi Barzini's book "The Italians" has various accounts of battles the Italians almost won during the days of the Medicis and Machiavelli, and he points out that in World War I, the Italians were constantly starting new uphill offensives against the Austrians in the Alps. Unfortunately, in the fall of 1917, the Germans helped out their Austrian pals and crushed the Italians, as described in Hemingway's "A Farewell to Arms." But, Barzini notes, the Italians eventually made a stand on a river deep in Italy and finally repulsed even the mighty Germans.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @tamako

    ….and a fat lot of good it did them too.

  46. @Steve Sailer
    @eah

    My father told me that he once was speaking to an Italian air force general whose unit had scores of F-104s. My father asked the Italian what their secret was. The West Germans were always complaining about how lethal the F-104 was to their pilots, but the Italians never did.

    "Oh, our pilots die too," the Italian general replied. "We just don't complain about it."

    Replies: @Anon, @Anonymous, @David In TN

    I remember reading an anecdote that in the north African campaign, the Germans insisted that the tail gunners of their aircraft – the most hazardous situation – be Italian – whilst the cockpit crew were Germans.

  47. @Gabriel M

    (One difference is that the Axis more or less was.)
     
    This is not true. The Nazis and, still more so, the Japanese, were in the grip of some seriously evil madness, but they were neither individually, nor in concert, trying to conquer the world. There was only one country involved in WW2 who was trying to conquer the world and, not coincidentally, it was the country that actually did.

    Replies: @bomag, @Hibernian, @Bill Jones, @snorlax, @Sam Haysom, @Anonymous, @neon2

    but they were neither individually, nor in concert, trying to conquer the world

    But they conquered significant territory outside their historic borders.

  48. @The Only Catholic Unionist
    Yes, it's difficult now to imagine that there was a time when cooking pasta was such an alien concept that people once had to get spaghetti catered.

    (Or that in some areas of the country, people thought Dean Martin was singing "Like a big piece of pie" in That's Amore because they had no idea what pizza was.)

    Replies: @Natureboy, @Je Suis Charlie Martel, @Thea

    In my “old America” hometown, pizza was unknown until the late 50’s/early 60’s. A Jewish guy recognized the opportunity to sell pizza to the out of town college girls from up North.
    My grandparents always considered pizza as a sort of foreign food. My maternal grandparents never ate pizza as long as I knew them.

  49. @Gabriel M

    (One difference is that the Axis more or less was.)
     
    This is not true. The Nazis and, still more so, the Japanese, were in the grip of some seriously evil madness, but they were neither individually, nor in concert, trying to conquer the world. There was only one country involved in WW2 who was trying to conquer the world and, not coincidentally, it was the country that actually did.

    Replies: @bomag, @Hibernian, @Bill Jones, @snorlax, @Sam Haysom, @Anonymous, @neon2

    Who were the Axis going to leave alone, in your view?

  50. About Arthur Jacobs’ Book:

    The Prison Called Hohenasperg: An American boy betrayed by his Government during World War II, ISBN 1-58112-832-0

    Synopsis: Unknown to most Americans, more than 10,000 Germans and German Americans were interned in the United States during WWII. This story is about the internment of a young American and his family. He was born in the U.S.A. and the story tells of his perilous path from his home in Brooklyn to internment at Ellis Island, N.Y. and Crystal City, Texas, and imprisonment, after the war, at a place in Germany called Hohenasperg.

    When he arrived in Germany in the dead of winter he was transported to Hohenasperg in a frigid, stench-filled, locked, and heavily guarded, boxcar. Once in Hohenasperg, he was separated from his family and put in a prison cell. He was only twelve years old! He was treated like a Nazi by the U.S. Army guards and was told that if he didn’t behave he would be killed. He tried to tell them he was an American, but they just told him to shut up. His fellow inmates included high-ranking officers of the Third Reich who were being held for interrogation and denazification.

    The book tells how the author survived this ordeal and many others, and how he fought his way back to his beloved America.

    http://www.foitimes.com/jacobs_story.htm

  51. @Steve Sailer
    @M_Young

    There was a pro-Japanese American movie from MGM at least as early as 1951, "Go For Broke," about the Fighting 442nd regiment that won so many medals in Europe:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_for_Broke!_(1951_film)

    It did fairly well at the box office and the screenplay got an Oscar nomination. I saw it on TV when I was a kid.

    Replies: @tamako, @Captain Tripps, @Buddwing

    I’m for a WW2 film depicting a battle America losing valiantly. Something along the lines of a depiction of the Battle for Bataan from start to finish should do for this.

    • Replies: @David In TN
    @tamako

    The 1942 film "Wake Island" was fairly accurate, except for implying the Americans fought to the last man. They did surrender at the end. It showed Americans fighting valiantly against impossible odds. And there was also "Bataan," starring Robert Taylor.

    Both of those were war propaganda, more or less. The Bataan film was small unit action, which the movies have always preferred.

    , @Hubbub
    @tamako

    I recently saw an Italian wartime film (1941) Benghazi in which the Italian army arrives just in time to save the town from destruction by the enemy (Allied Army). You know, the Italians were really nice people - citizens and soldiers alike - just trying to stay safe and get back home to their long-suffering loved ones.

  52. @Steve Sailer
    @Olorin

    Tule Lake is where the hardcore Imperial loyalists were sent. They caused a lot of trouble there, but on the other hand they weren't surreptitious about their loyalties, just as RAF fliers in POW camps caused no end of trouble for their German captors.

    I suspect that the Imperial intelligence services would have been happier if more Japanese in America had been two-faced, but there aren't many examples of that.

    In general, the Japanese militarist ideology of the age wasn't good at inculcating the slippery traits. That ideology encouraged lots of kinds of bad behavior, but not hypocrisy and deceit. The 1940s Japanese tended to be very in your face. The samurai ideology encouraged arrogance, aggression, and national egotism, but was not conducive to covert action since the national mood was so overt.

    Replies: @Foreign Expert, @Spork

    Many years ago I saw an NHK documentary on the Japanese Americans during the war. Perhaps because it was a Japanese production, several of the older ones let down their guard and said they hoped, 日本 が 勝てば いい.japan would win.

  53. About the Italians…

    I’m not going to google anything, but I used to read a lot about military matters, particularly WWII.

    Thing about the Italians, is that for no discernible reason isolated formations of Italian troops will suddenly decide they are the reincarnations of Legionnaires. And then fight like it.

    Totally random and not predictable. But if you take a look at the engagements in Italy by the Americans after Anzio you will find references to a few incidents.

    Not exactly something I spend a lot of time thinking about or investigating, but it always seemed to me that the Italian leadership, particularly at the level of people that actually move little figures around a map was their biggest problem militarily.

    I think there is actually a fairly famous extended engagement in the Italian Alps where the British got all they ever wanted from the Italians.

  54. There was actual fear that there would be sabotage by Italians in New York so the government hired the mafia to keep the harbor under control: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Underworld

  55. @Steve Sailer
    @Anon

    Luigi Barzini's book "The Italians" has various accounts of battles the Italians almost won during the days of the Medicis and Machiavelli, and he points out that in World War I, the Italians were constantly starting new uphill offensives against the Austrians in the Alps. Unfortunately, in the fall of 1917, the Germans helped out their Austrian pals and crushed the Italians, as described in Hemingway's "A Farewell to Arms." But, Barzini notes, the Italians eventually made a stand on a river deep in Italy and finally repulsed even the mighty Germans.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @tamako

    …in World War I, the Italians were constantly starting new uphill offensives against the Austrians in the Alps…

    Let me remind you that these frontal assaults only happened because they put a disciplinarian in charge who wanted them. Even then, all these assaults did were wear down the Italians to the point where the final battle of the Isonzo resulted in the collapse of their front.
    And, the Germans were only repulsed because of logistics, the ball and chain of (then-)contemporary warfare.

    The prior statements do not disprove your point.

  56. @Hubbub

    Rounding up Japanese American citizens on the West Coast was one he screwed up.
     
    Hindsight is always 20/20. There were 'real' Japanese collaborators in the Japanese community who had an affinity for the mother country. They could have created some murder and mayhem along the West Coast - a real fear at the time. I don't believe there were any 'terrorist' attacks by sympathetic Japanese at the time, so internment can be seen as a positive in that respect.

    Overwrought anxiety on the part of the government and American citizens? Again, hindsight is not a good judge of the 'moment' in which things are happening. Since we want to believe in the benign spirit of the 'good Japanese' of that time, we take unnecessary guilt and try to redeem ourselves with payouts to descendants and with scribed damnations in our press. Personally, I feel no regret for what was done during those trying times to protect the American people.

    Many wish that the government would take that attitude today, instead of letting into the country the very people who commit the most atrocious crimes - mass murder with any weapon at hand. I think of the Americans whose lives have been disrupted and complicated without just cause; whose once peaceful communities have become hell-holes after 'refugees' have been introduced into the environs. I think of my nieces who have to put up with the third-world behavior of third-world men who assault them physically and verbally. Yesterday, they did not have to put up with such behavior because it did not exist in their world; today, they fear to go to school, shopping, or to any event without male accompaniment.

    At the time, there was real fear of Japanese terror in the homeland - think of the destruction and lost lives if only a few 'disturbed' Japanese decided to give their lives for their 'home' country. And compare that to what we do today: We invite the terror into our midst, refuse to recognize it as a terror, and, absurdly, increase the masses of other-world peoples who mean to supplant us.

    You can be a fool, but, please, at your own expense, not mine and my loved ones.

    Replies: @bomag

    Yesterday, they did not have to put up with such behavior because it did not exist in their world; today, they fear to go to school, shopping, or to any event without male accompaniment.

    This is the sort of thing that doesn’t get counted when adding up the cost of immigration.

    And the Inviters(tm) preach to us about the advantages of diversity; having more bodies sloshing around in the bucket of Earth; and the past sins we’ll absolve by importing the Other for feeding and breeding. But these Inviters(tm) are no where to be found when things go sour. They should at least post a bond, which the victims of their experiment can draw upon for some compensation.

  57. @whorefinder
    @M_Young


    ‘Pearl Harbor’ has all the great cinematography and CGI and all, as the scene in the clip in the post shows. And it’s neat up to a point.
     
    Pearl Harbor (2001) was a flop and critically attacked. It was so hated the guys from South Park made a whole song about how bad it was in Team America: World Police :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9jS4gppIFs

    Pearl Harbor's flopping was a combination of things.

    First it was backlash against star Ben Affleck , who had wildly overextended himself in public thanks to dating Jennifer Lopez. "Bennifer" was so much in the tabloids and Affleck was starring in so many sub-par-but-hyped movies at the time that people were vomitously sick of him. (Daredevil, anyone?) The backlash against Affleck was so bad he retreated behind the camera for years to rehab his image, and yet even then there was some carryover when he was cast as Batman in the recent spate of DC comics movies----many people were bitching about it, calling him Batfleck, and bringing up J'Lo and Daredevil all over again. Thankfully for Affleck, his Batman turned out to have been the best thing about the recent Justice League films.

    Second, it's the undying hatred crticis/Lefties has for Michael Bay. Bay probably would have been a stupdenously-lauded silent film director, (likely Westerns/action films of the era; I could picture him and Douglas Fairbanks working together a lot), but in the era of sound and p.c and where heroes are supposed to all spout believable-p.c.-tirades and action is for kids he's ridiculed.

    Bay tells his stories visually and with the "male gaze" (Megan Fox, anyone?) and macho male mindset as his POV, and loves special effects, but critics want more feminized talky-talky stuff and hate his love for children's cartoons of the 80s and his overall love of macho masculinity. Yet he made The Rock, one of the best movies of the 1990s, and makes a mint at the box office. Pearl Harbor was one of his few flops, and critics jumped on him for it. Bay reminds me of Cecil B. DeMille in how the latter was criticized as artless and yet made more memorable scenes than the art-house set.

    Third, WW2 movie fatigue was setting in by the time of Pearl Harbor (2001). Schlinder's List (1993) had re-ignited the WW2 Hollywood film--a genre had been shunted aside in the late 70s and 80s in favor of the Vietnam War films---and Braveheart (1995) made epics popular again, so Saving Private Ryan (1998) was feasible.

    And the 1990s saw the 50th Anniversary of WW2 and the realization that all those old vets were dying off, so there was a nostalgia craze for it as well. (50 years later seems to be a magic number for filmmakers to get interested in an era again; the 1970s saw a huge boom in movies about the 1920s and bootlegging and the like; the 1950s saw a boom in movies about the turn of the 20th Century and the end of the Gay Nineties).

    But by 2001 the boom was over and people were kind of over WW2 films by then. After Pearl Harbor, WW2 films tended to be smaller budget dramas, although Tarantino's Inglorious Basterds was an exception. But nobody was making a WW2 film as their tentpole summer flick after Pearl Harbor.

    Replies: @whorefinder, @The Man From K Street, @Clyde, @SPMoore8, @Thirdeye, @Anonymous

    Second, it’s the undying hatred crticis/Lefties has for Michael Bay.

    He keeps it quiet as possible but he is definitely center right to right. And directs from the male POV as you say. Tom Hanks is one of my lowest scoring male POV actors. There are too many others. At least post WW2 Hollywood was full of rational guys who served. And high schools were full of such grounded male teachers.

  58. It probably made a difference for how Italians were treated in post-WWII American culture that the Fascist government collapsed relatively early in the campaign. It was still no picnic, as my grandfather who lost his leg in Italy could tell you (https://spottedtoad.wordpress.com/2016/09/28/real-american-hero/ ), but the GIs were mostly fighting Nazis rather than Italians.
    I’m sure invading via Sicily and then Southern Italy made strategic sense, but I also wonder if it was expected to be easier to get the local population on your side, since Italian-American immigration had been so disproportionately from the South.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Spotted Toad

    Sicily had a long history of invasion and the local attitude was to deal with (and overcharge and steal as much as possible from) whomever was in charge that week because eventually they would be gone but you would still be there.

    , @Buffalo Joe
    @Spotted Toad

    ST, I think Sicily had beaches to assault and hold and they would become a staging area for the move up the "Boot." Remember also, that the German troops stationed in Sicily and Italy were seen as an invading force by the general population.

    , @Seamus Padraig
    @Spotted Toad


    I’m sure invading via Sicily and then Southern Italy made strategic sense, but I also wonder if it was expected to be easier to get the local population on your side, since Italian-American immigration had been so disproportionately from the South.
     
    Another point to consider: by dispatching Lucky Luciano to Sicily, they were also able to get the mafia on the side of the US. That came in handy when it was time to steal an election from the Communists after the war!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucky_Luciano#World_War_II.2C_freedom.2C_and_deportation

    Replies: @Adar.

  59. Bearing in mind that the post was about the treatment of Italian nationals in WW2, all I can say is that I’ve been aware of it for a long time, and that German relations in my family were also harassed in both world wars on the west coast. And non-German relations got a lot of negative feedback for defending them.

    Wars breed hysteria and hysteria breeds mob violence. It’s nothing to be proud of, people shouldn’t make excuses for it, and the internment of the Japanese was (objectively) unnecessary, since there was no effort made to intern them in Hawaii (because they were too numerous).

    On the other hand, as someone has already noted, there was a lot of hostility towards Japanese after Pearl Harbor (and even before, to be honest), who mostly were in gardening and truck gardening work, as I have heard. Segregating the Japanese was a good way to ensure we didn’t have lynchings on the West Coast, which was a real possibility, given the blatantly public and endorsed by the California governor lynching of the two white guys who killed Brooke Hart (Jewish son of a store owner) in 1936 in a public park in San Jose.

    In that sense, the bad part about the internment is that a lot of Japanese lost their property, either outright or at a loss, which was unjust and that is why the recompense that came under Reagan was only fair. As the focus of this blog post shows, the Italians (and probably Germans as well) suffered similar financial losses.

    During WW1 the hysteria was particularly bad towards Germans, and I was surprised to find some years ago that sometimes Jewish Germans were caught up in that net, based on some old articles from midwest newspapers I was reading.

    The love affair we engaged in with Italians and Japanese postwar probably had a lot to do with war brides plus the fact that most of the American action (in both senses of the word) took place in Italy, where sizable Americans were stationed for nearly three years. (In contrast, the Americans were only in Northern Europe from June 44 to May 45; and there was a clamor to bring them home ASAP after that.)

    I think overall the Japanese internment was a mistake (NB: It was only on the coastal areas, not everywhere, compare Hayakawa’s career (he was a Canuck anyway, IIRC)) but as described I think I can understand why it was done. Nevertheless it’s a useful tonic to those who think this kind of itemization and segregation of large groups of people, accompanied by some rather rabid group hatred, could only happen under Euro dictatorships (Germany, Russia) but could never happen in our democracy. Of course, the fact that we didn’t kill our prisoners after interning them is very much to our credit.

    I’m surprised there is zero sympathy for either Germans or Italians expressed here, the lack of sympathy for Japanese not so much.

    As for the the future, Michelle Malkin (Filipina born in US) wrote a book defending the Japanese internment and also floated the idea for Muslims. Clearly we have to do something about Muslim immigration but the fact that we as a nation did not flip out after 9/11 is to Bush’s credit, it might be the only thing he got right in his presidency.

    • Replies: @Marcus
    @SPMoore8

    The British pioneered internment camps, not the Germans or Soviets. They also interned Italians and Germans in the UK during WW2.

    Replies: @SPMoore8, @jacques sheete

    , @CAL
    @SPMoore8

    I can't find it now but I once read the contemporary Army document on their recommendation for internment. (It had the misused quote about nothing happening and therefore that was troubling). Anyways, the military wanted to exclude Japanese citizens from defense industry areas to prevent sabotage. The problem was that there were so many exclusion zones and based on where the Japanese were located, it effectively resulted in all of them being relocated. Just having them move wasn't really feasible because no community was going to be happy with large groups of Japanese moving into the neighborhood. In reality, the camps were probably the best choice in a bad situation.

    Yes, Hawaii had a large Japanese population but it didn't have much in the way of military industry. It had military bases which were already under military control. The Army didn't have the resources to secure every production plant on the coast.

    , @Anonymous Rice Alum 4
    @SPMoore8

    During WW1 the hysteria was particularly bad towards Germans, and I was surprised to find some years ago that sometimes Jewish Germans were caught up in that net, based on some old articles from midwest newspapers I was reading.

    Many interpretations of WW2 make it seem that anti-Semitism was a strong and deep strain of German society before Hitler. In reality, anti-Semitism in Germany in WW1 was similar in degree and kind to that in France, the UK, and the US. (Factoid: outside of Israel, there are two cemeteries for Jewish war dead. One is in Berlin for Jewish German WW1 dead. (The other is in Richmond, VA for Jewish Confederate dead)). Many Jewish Germans of the WW1 era considered themselves culturally German and superior to eastern European Jews. (Look at Steve's posts about Jews and country clubs for an example). So it shouldn't be a surprise that during WW1 Jewish German-Americans fell victim to the same hysteria as gentile German-Americans.

  60. @ATX Hipster
    It's pretty apples-to-oranges to compare interning Japanese during WWII to pausing Muslim immigration now, or extreme vetting or whatever else. "Extreme" (i.e., "Sensible") vetting doesn't involve rounding up American citizens or taking their property or any of the other Fascism porn fantasies the left keeps coming up with.

    Let's take it as given that it was a mistake to intern American Japanese during the war - although their trustworthiness is only obvious in hindsight. How about taking in Japanese immigrants during the war? Would that have been prudent? And when they got here, instead of demanding an oath of loyalty, or even asking them whose side they're on, we could have told them it's cool if they prefer the Emperor, and hey, we can let Pearl Harbor slide because you guys were just Punching Up.

    Surely we'd be able to trust all the Japanese to show up, right?


    WRT to Putin Madness in 2016, well at least the Japanese had gone through the formality of attacking us before we started panicking about having them here. Hillary was ready to have us shooting down Russian planes in Syria because of some alleged email hacking. Much more reasonable than that fascist Roosevelt!

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

    Thanks for that. I do despise how these lefty journalists write in unexamined premises so that the crux of the story is settled their way before the article even begins.

    The invidious comparison in this case is that measures against foreigners on the entirely rational basis of their professed beliefs are the same as measures against citizens based on their national descent.

    A non-invidious comparison would have been to the legal, rational and constitutional laws prohibiting professed Communists form entering the country. So of course the journalists don’t make it.

    “Green: What would you say is the takeaway from all of this as we look ahead to more years of discrimination against different minority groups in the United States?”

    Ah, finally they want to discuss the extensive regime of government-sponsored discrimination against whites, straights, males and Christians! Oh, wait…

    • Agree: ATX Hipster
  61. @Random Dude on the Internet
    @JohnnyD

    FDR is one of those heroes that they will just continually reinvent for modern times to avoid being seen as a wrongthinker. While campus Marxists want to tear down heroes, the Democrats know that they need to have some of history's heroes be on their side. FDR and Lincoln (even though he was a Republican) will always be those guys. I'm sure Barack will be sainted and be included in this category, especially since it may be an especially long time until we see a non-white face be President again and even then will a Latino face have the same impact as the first black president? I really doubt it, even among Latinos themselves.

    Replies: @Harry Baldwin

    I very much doubt the first “Latino” president will make much of an impact as he’ll just be another white guy whose name happens to be Ramirez or some such. He’s not going to look like Danny Trejo.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @Harry Baldwin


    he’ll just be another white guy whose name happens to be Ramirez or some such
     
    Like this one?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbvbIN0nN7A

    You're right, not very Latino.
  62. One impetus for the 1804 Haiti massacre was national security: the leadership though the White population would invite in foreigners to re-install slavery.

  63. What Makes Today’s America Different From the Country That Incarcerated the Japanese?

    During Republican administrations, America is just like that place. During Democrat administrations, that stuff is forgotten. Obama was supposed to be just like FDR – he was going to bring us a New Deal. Forget all that internment camp stuff. This is like homelessness – it’s only a problem when a Republican is President.

    • Agree: Seamus Padraig
  64. @whorefinder
    @M_Young


    ‘Pearl Harbor’ has all the great cinematography and CGI and all, as the scene in the clip in the post shows. And it’s neat up to a point.
     
    Pearl Harbor (2001) was a flop and critically attacked. It was so hated the guys from South Park made a whole song about how bad it was in Team America: World Police :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9jS4gppIFs

    Pearl Harbor's flopping was a combination of things.

    First it was backlash against star Ben Affleck , who had wildly overextended himself in public thanks to dating Jennifer Lopez. "Bennifer" was so much in the tabloids and Affleck was starring in so many sub-par-but-hyped movies at the time that people were vomitously sick of him. (Daredevil, anyone?) The backlash against Affleck was so bad he retreated behind the camera for years to rehab his image, and yet even then there was some carryover when he was cast as Batman in the recent spate of DC comics movies----many people were bitching about it, calling him Batfleck, and bringing up J'Lo and Daredevil all over again. Thankfully for Affleck, his Batman turned out to have been the best thing about the recent Justice League films.

    Second, it's the undying hatred crticis/Lefties has for Michael Bay. Bay probably would have been a stupdenously-lauded silent film director, (likely Westerns/action films of the era; I could picture him and Douglas Fairbanks working together a lot), but in the era of sound and p.c and where heroes are supposed to all spout believable-p.c.-tirades and action is for kids he's ridiculed.

    Bay tells his stories visually and with the "male gaze" (Megan Fox, anyone?) and macho male mindset as his POV, and loves special effects, but critics want more feminized talky-talky stuff and hate his love for children's cartoons of the 80s and his overall love of macho masculinity. Yet he made The Rock, one of the best movies of the 1990s, and makes a mint at the box office. Pearl Harbor was one of his few flops, and critics jumped on him for it. Bay reminds me of Cecil B. DeMille in how the latter was criticized as artless and yet made more memorable scenes than the art-house set.

    Third, WW2 movie fatigue was setting in by the time of Pearl Harbor (2001). Schlinder's List (1993) had re-ignited the WW2 Hollywood film--a genre had been shunted aside in the late 70s and 80s in favor of the Vietnam War films---and Braveheart (1995) made epics popular again, so Saving Private Ryan (1998) was feasible.

    And the 1990s saw the 50th Anniversary of WW2 and the realization that all those old vets were dying off, so there was a nostalgia craze for it as well. (50 years later seems to be a magic number for filmmakers to get interested in an era again; the 1970s saw a huge boom in movies about the 1920s and bootlegging and the like; the 1950s saw a boom in movies about the turn of the 20th Century and the end of the Gay Nineties).

    But by 2001 the boom was over and people were kind of over WW2 films by then. After Pearl Harbor, WW2 films tended to be smaller budget dramas, although Tarantino's Inglorious Basterds was an exception. But nobody was making a WW2 film as their tentpole summer flick after Pearl Harbor.

    Replies: @whorefinder, @The Man From K Street, @Clyde, @SPMoore8, @Thirdeye, @Anonymous

    Pearl Harbor is definitely the worst in theater experience I ever had. I took my daughters to go see it the summer it came out, after being bored out of my mind I checked my watch and we were only 15 minutes into it.

    Everything about that film sucked, from the biplane childhood character establishment, to the hot chicks at Hickham field, to the Titanic ripoff in New York harbor, to the Doolittle Raid tacked on in the finale, etc.

    Nevertheless, I can attest that my mother — in her 90’s — liked it on DVD. I guess you had to have been there.

    WW2 movies lost steam after Vietnam and made a big uptick thanks to the first Gulf War (which made war good again) and the Greatest Generation meme. Saving Private Ryan was the big one, I don’t know if there’s been anything before or since that was popular. (Holocaust movies aren’t exactly the same thing, since they usually feature no combat.)

    • Replies: @Captain Tripps
    @SPMoore8


    I don’t know if there’s been anything before or since that was popular.
     
    Not a movie but the HBO mini-series Band of Brothers was pretty popular. BofB was released in 2001, 3 years after Saving Private Ryan, and can be viewed as Hanks and Spielberg continuing the general "Great Crusade" thread of Saving Private Ryan. Both franchises spun-off a whole genre of first-person shooter games for the PC and console box industries.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medal_of_Honor_(series)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_of_Heroes
  65. @SPMoore8
    Bearing in mind that the post was about the treatment of Italian nationals in WW2, all I can say is that I've been aware of it for a long time, and that German relations in my family were also harassed in both world wars on the west coast. And non-German relations got a lot of negative feedback for defending them.

    Wars breed hysteria and hysteria breeds mob violence. It's nothing to be proud of, people shouldn't make excuses for it, and the internment of the Japanese was (objectively) unnecessary, since there was no effort made to intern them in Hawaii (because they were too numerous).

    On the other hand, as someone has already noted, there was a lot of hostility towards Japanese after Pearl Harbor (and even before, to be honest), who mostly were in gardening and truck gardening work, as I have heard. Segregating the Japanese was a good way to ensure we didn't have lynchings on the West Coast, which was a real possibility, given the blatantly public and endorsed by the California governor lynching of the two white guys who killed Brooke Hart (Jewish son of a store owner) in 1936 in a public park in San Jose.

    In that sense, the bad part about the internment is that a lot of Japanese lost their property, either outright or at a loss, which was unjust and that is why the recompense that came under Reagan was only fair. As the focus of this blog post shows, the Italians (and probably Germans as well) suffered similar financial losses.

    During WW1 the hysteria was particularly bad towards Germans, and I was surprised to find some years ago that sometimes Jewish Germans were caught up in that net, based on some old articles from midwest newspapers I was reading.

    The love affair we engaged in with Italians and Japanese postwar probably had a lot to do with war brides plus the fact that most of the American action (in both senses of the word) took place in Italy, where sizable Americans were stationed for nearly three years. (In contrast, the Americans were only in Northern Europe from June 44 to May 45; and there was a clamor to bring them home ASAP after that.)

    I think overall the Japanese internment was a mistake (NB: It was only on the coastal areas, not everywhere, compare Hayakawa's career (he was a Canuck anyway, IIRC)) but as described I think I can understand why it was done. Nevertheless it's a useful tonic to those who think this kind of itemization and segregation of large groups of people, accompanied by some rather rabid group hatred, could only happen under Euro dictatorships (Germany, Russia) but could never happen in our democracy. Of course, the fact that we didn't kill our prisoners after interning them is very much to our credit.

    I'm surprised there is zero sympathy for either Germans or Italians expressed here, the lack of sympathy for Japanese not so much.

    As for the the future, Michelle Malkin (Filipina born in US) wrote a book defending the Japanese internment and also floated the idea for Muslims. Clearly we have to do something about Muslim immigration but the fact that we as a nation did not flip out after 9/11 is to Bush's credit, it might be the only thing he got right in his presidency.

    Replies: @Marcus, @CAL, @Anonymous Rice Alum 4

    The British pioneered internment camps, not the Germans or Soviets. They also interned Italians and Germans in the UK during WW2.

    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    @Marcus

    I'm well aware of Britain's leadership in the development of internment/concentration camps, but they are rarely discussed. Of course, since any kind of concentration camp pre-Stalin/Hitler can be described as "pre" Holocaust/GULAG, there's always an effort to find such seeds in prior camp-life arrangements, and that extends (IIRC) well before the notorious Boer War camps the Brits established, and in which a large percentage of internees (old men, women, and children) died in epidemics. For example, I think there were such things in Cuba before the Spanish American War, as well, but I'm sure I've read descriptions that predate that by a long period of time.

    Replies: @Desiderius

    , @jacques sheete
    @Marcus


    The British pioneered internment camps, not the Germans or Soviets. They also interned Italians and Germans in the UK during WW2.
     
    They also had concentration camps in Kenya during the 1950s. They did some horrific tortures there as well such as stuffing hot eggs into women's vaginas.

    Caroline Elkins' book is excellent.

    Imperial Reckoning: The Untold Story of Britain's Gulag in Kenya

    https://www.amazon.com/Imperial-Reckoning-Untold-Story-Britains/dp/0805080015
     
  66. @Andy
    There might have been abuses, but the internement of Japanese Americans in WW2 wasn't in itself wrong, given the loyalty of many Japanese Americans to the Emperor. Certainly it was more humane than Stalin's treatment of those ethnic minorities considered sympathetic to the Germans during the war (Russian Germans, but also a lot of Muslim people from the Caucasus, like the Chechens)

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Dr. X

    There might have been abuses, but the internement of Japanese Americans in WW2 wasn’t in itself wrong

    Correct. Article 1, Sec. 9 of the Constitution allows for the suspension of habeas corpus in times of invasion and rebellion and when “the public safety may require it.”

    Certainly it was more humane than Stalin’s treatment of those ethnic minorities considered sympathetic to the Germans

    Certainly it was more humane than the way just about EVERY other belligerent treated POWs and other assorted internees — particularly the way the Japanese treated Americans during the Bataan Death March or the Chinese at Nanking.

    70 years after World War II ended, only fools with a lot of time on their hands are crying their eyes out over the alleged mistreatment of perceived Axis sympathizers. War is hell. The Italian guy who lost $26,000 on his fishing boat didn’t get his legs blown off, didn’t get his sons killed, didn’t get his family gassed in a death camp or his wife gang-raped by soldiers, did he? Sounds like he made out pretty good compared to a lot of other people.

    • Replies: @Captain Tripps
    @Dr. X


    Certainly it was more humane than the way just about EVERY other belligerent treated POWs and other assorted internees
     
    Then there's this:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_prisoners_of_war_in_the_United_States#After_the_war

    Its Wiki, so take it for what its worth, but there is a good list of largely independent research sources, as well as official government accounts/records.

    Interestingly, there were seven German POW camps in Maryland, and eleven in Virginia. Surprising given the proximity to the national government and the theoretical potential for German POW sabotage or other mayhem. Fortunately, their Teutonic sense of discipline, inability to communicate effectively with the homefront, and the genuinely decent conditions of our POW camps largely prevented this.
  67. @Harry Baldwin
    @Random Dude on the Internet

    I very much doubt the first "Latino" president will make much of an impact as he'll just be another white guy whose name happens to be Ramirez or some such. He's not going to look like Danny Trejo.

    Replies: @Desiderius

    he’ll just be another white guy whose name happens to be Ramirez or some such

    Like this one?

    You’re right, not very Latino.

    • LOL: Chrisnonymous
  68. @Spotted Toad
    It probably made a difference for how Italians were treated in post-WWII American culture that the Fascist government collapsed relatively early in the campaign. It was still no picnic, as my grandfather who lost his leg in Italy could tell you (https://spottedtoad.wordpress.com/2016/09/28/real-american-hero/ ), but the GIs were mostly fighting Nazis rather than Italians.
    I'm sure invading via Sicily and then Southern Italy made strategic sense, but I also wonder if it was expected to be easier to get the local population on your side, since Italian-American immigration had been so disproportionately from the South.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Buffalo Joe, @Seamus Padraig

    Sicily had a long history of invasion and the local attitude was to deal with (and overcharge and steal as much as possible from) whomever was in charge that week because eventually they would be gone but you would still be there.

  69. @Olorin

    In retrospect, it turned out that all you had to do was ask Japanese people which side they were on. If they swore loyalty, you could rely on their oath. If they swore undying fealty to the Emperor, as about 5,000 did, well, you could rely on those guys to be a handful. The Japanese in 1940s America didn’t seem to have much concept of taqiyya.

    But mistakes get made in wartime, especially right after the biggest defeat in American history. FDR had a lot of decisions to make in 1942. Rounding up Japanese American citizens on the West Coast was one he screwed up.

     

    Curious where you're getting the 5,000 figure...but this overall point is important and usually overlooked in the rush to gain Victimization Points and bash the US.

    In fact I knew nothing about it till about 20 years ago while cruising the Uwajimaya bookstore in Seattle's International District and ran across a book by a Japanese author, nonfiction, pointing out that there were thousands of Japanese in the US who swore fealty to the chrysanthemum. I believe it was his memoir of life in one of the Japanese camps. (He seemed pretty positive about it overall, a surprise to me, even as he documented stresses on his family.)

    I had no idea. The shock I felt was intense. I tried looking it up at the time but didn't get far and by then the men in my family with PTO experience/connections were all gone.

    My dad served in the USN, PTO, and had plenty of stories about kamikaze attacks on his logistics unit and what he and his buddies saw when big broken ships were towed in for repair. He told that in euphemisms when he talked about it at all. But later in life when I better understood DadSpeak, I realized that my dad had had the experience of hauling chunks of other men's bodies out of mangled steel hulls, often a long time after they'd gotten there. Often finding/confronting them unexpectedly in the middle of other work. I've seen my share of torn flesh, but that's just...brutal. I can think of nothing like it in my lifetime except the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks.

    When discussing the CA internment camps, he spoke of it in epidemiological terms, which I found notable since he despised FDR, but still spoke in a measured way on this particular topic: FDR's administration couldn't determine for sure how many Japanese had mixed or traitorous loyalties, or how many imperial loyalists would influence family members and friends. Particularly if the US's fortunes waned in the course of battle. There was also the matter, he said, of isolating populations (white and Japanese) from one another in the interest of social cohesion. He was also of the view that many Japanese might be safer there.

    Plus he'd observe how conditions in the stateside internment camps were far better than those the Japanese inflicted on POWs.

    https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/prisoners-of-war-of-the-japanese-1939-1945

    https://www.archives.gov/publications/prologue/2003/winter/hell-ships-1.html

    I don't see how one would conclude after a sudden attack that killed thousands of Americans and destroyed an entire fleet that people of the attacking nation could be counted on to be honest on the matter of their loyalties. Which handful would one trust or not? How would one tell? What could be the costs of being wrong?

    More to the point for today: does the US get any points ever for bending over backwards not to make the same choices later in our history...and more recently in doing so allow into our nation tens of thousands of actively hostile, unvetted enemy warriors who cause mayhem and compromise our society and its people?

    For how long do today's white men have to remain incarcerated in blame for the choices of the past?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Buffalo Joe

    Olorin, My Dad also served in the Pacific during WWII and he told me when I was young that he was not in combat, but his service ribbons have two battle stars and his ship was at Okinawa. I thank Steve for this article about the mistreatment of stateside Italians and Italian-Americans during WWII. I had no prior knowledge of this. My father and two of his brothers served/fought in WWII as did three of my Mother’s brothers. They were at Okinawa, The Bulge, Anzio, North Africa and other battles. Olorin your comment is very well stated. Thank you and thank you Steve. I think I’ll go dig out my Dad’s old photos and get weepy.

  70. IIRC, bleeding heart J. Edgar Hoover was against mass internment of Japanese, although of course he favored a good deal of surveillance and rounding up the committed loyalists.

  71. @gcochran
    "treat each other as honorable foes"


    ~33% of American prisoners of the Japanese died in captivity. But look on the bright side: only a few were dissected or eaten.

    Replies: @M_Young, @Buffalo Joe

    Gcochran, I know for a fact that short handed GI units in Europe sometimes didn’t take prisoners but I don’t think they tortured or worked them literally to death. The Japanese hated their captives and as the outcome of the war became certain, they ramped up their mistreatment and execution of their prisoners. The book “Fly Boys” by James Bradley, who also wrote “Flags of our Fathers”, gives a graphic and sickening account of the Japanese torture and execution of American POWs. The book “The Ghost Raid” (maybe wrong on the title) tells of a stealth raid by the US Army to rescue GI POWs in the Philipines, as the Japanese were actively executing them en-masse.

  72. Rarely mentioned is the internment of Italians and Germans at Crystal City, Texas during WWII.

    An existential struggle would have an effect of focusing the mind with regard to internment. My take is that Korematsu would be overturned in peacetime or in the context of a low intensity conflict fought far away, while in the regrettable event of another existential struggle which threatened the homeland the Courts would defer to the President and his war powers. Also, in such a case who would the Courts send to enforce their Orders as against camps administered and overseen by the United States military with Orders from the Commander in Chief to hold the camp? It would be a suicide mission.

    In essence, the caterwauling is largely a luxury which allows Boomers to feel morally superior to their parents.

  73. @Steve Sailer
    @Andy

    I believe that interned Japanese citizens were paid at the same rate as privates in the Army.

    It's tendentious but also informative to note that you could say that about 10 million Americans were interned on military bases due to the draft.

    Replies: @Jack D

    Privates in those days made only $50/week so that was small consolation. Many of the interned Japanese had had businesses and properties that were confiscated and proper compensation was not paid until decades later. The internment was understandable as war time panic but it was never the right thing to do.

    Still, the modern leftist view is to focus on everything bad about America and none of the good. America has a 200+ year human rights record that would be the envy of almost any other country. The internment was one small blemish on a magnificent Constitutional framework but it gets talked about endlessly instead of the other 99% of times when our brilliantly designed Constitution worked as the Founding Fathers intended. America is like Michelangelo’s David but all these people want to talk about is a chip on a toe.

    • Replies: @Whoever
    @Jack D


    Privates in those days made only $50/week
     
    A bit overstated.

    Navy base pay per month, as established in 1942 (I assume Army pay was similar):
    Grade Pay per Month Class or Rating
    1 $138 Chief petty officers, permanent appointment.
    1A $126 Chief petty officers, acting appointment.
    2 $114 Petty officers, first class.
    3 $96 Petty officers, second class.
    4 $78 Petty officers, third class.
    5 $66 Non-rated men, first class.
    6 $54 Non-rated men, second class.
    7 $50 Apprentice seamen.

    Replies: @Hibernian

  74. Was this back before Italians were white?

  75. Anonymous [AKA "Japanman Shot Off My Legs"] says: • Website

    FROM: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niihau_incident

    The Niʻihau incident (or Battle of Niʻihau) occurred on December 7, 1941, when Imperial Japanese Navy Air Service pilot Shigenori Nishikaichi (西開地 重徳 Nishikaichi Shigenori) crash-landed his Zero on the Hawaiian island of Niʻihau after participating in the attack on Pearl Harbor. He was killed in a struggle with people on the island.

    The island’s Native Hawaiian residents were initially unaware of the attack, but apprehended Nishikaichi when the gravity of the situation became apparent. Nishikaichi then sought and received the assistance of the three locals of Japanese descent on the island in overcoming his captors, finding weapons, and taking several hostages. Eventually, Nishikaichi was killed by Niihauans Benehakaka “Ben” Kanahele and Kealoha “Ella” Kanahele;[1] Ben Kanahele was wounded in the process, and one of Nishikaichi’s confederates, Yoshio Harada, committed suicide.

    The incident and the actions of Nishikaichi’s abettors demonstrated the potential for racial or ethnic allegiance to overwhelm national allegiance; this ultimately may have influenced the decision to intern Japanese Americans during World War II. Ben Kanahele was decorated for his part in stopping the incident; Ella Kanahele received no official recognition.

  76. Steve,

    Dom Dimaggio was a former neighbor of mine outside Boston. He is critical to understanding the premature demise of Jimmie Foxx and the ascendancy of Ted Williams as members of the Boston Red Sox in 1940 and 1941. In his day, Foxx was the youngest player to reach 100, 200, 300, 400, and 500 career home runs. He was on a trajectory to rival Babe Ruth as the greatest home run hitter ever. Williams rated him as among the Top 5 hitters all-time. But Foxx was beaned in 1934 and then had mounting vision problems. He could have, like Dom or Chick Hafey (who was also a beaning victim), worn eyeglasses while batting, but quickly abandoned the idea. There is much more to the story.

  77. I had a friend whose father was an army officer stationed in Lousiana when the Pearl Harbor attack occurred. His father told him that there WAS sabotage on his post involving cut telephone lines and a fire in the fuel depot in the immediate aftermath of the Japanese attack. As the story goes, his father was the one responsible for investigating the sabotage and helping to secure the post. His father also told him there were other confirmed instances of sabotage elsewhere in the United States after the Pearl Harbor attack.

    I have no way of verifying this story. Does anyone else have similar tales? The point is that regardless of sabotage, there was a credible threat of a Japanese “Fifth Column” in place on the West coast that could collude with invading Japanese forces … and it wasn’t clear until the US victory at the Battle of Midway six months after Pearl Harbor that the West coast would be relatively safe from invasion.

  78. It must have been tough for Joe DiMaggio in those days. He was forced into the role of happy ball player in front of the cameras as they made everything into a morale booster for the war effort, even as his own father was being persecuted by the government.

  79. @Steve Sailer
    @Anon

    Luigi Barzini's book "The Italians" has various accounts of battles the Italians almost won during the days of the Medicis and Machiavelli, and he points out that in World War I, the Italians were constantly starting new uphill offensives against the Austrians in the Alps. Unfortunately, in the fall of 1917, the Germans helped out their Austrian pals and crushed the Italians, as described in Hemingway's "A Farewell to Arms." But, Barzini notes, the Italians eventually made a stand on a river deep in Italy and finally repulsed even the mighty Germans.

    Replies: @whorefinder, @Anonymous, @Buffalo Joe

    Steve, Every Italian-American has heard the “jokes’, I prefer insults, about Italians in warfare, but many Italian Americans distinquished themselves in WWII, including Sgt. John Basilone, USMC. Basilone was awarded the Medal of Honor for his heroic lone stand against a company of Japanese at Guadacanal and later at Iwo Jima, where he was awarded the Navy Cross. John was killed in action at Iwo. I may be wrong but I think Basilone and Audey Murphy are the only recipients of both a Medal of Honor and a Service Cross.

    • Replies: @David In TN
    @Buffalo Joe

    Alvin C. York also received both the Medal of Honor and the Distinguished Service Cross in World War I.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @eah

    , @william munny
    @Buffalo Joe

    Basilone was the furthest thing from a coward and is a legend in the Marine Corps, and lauded to new recruits as an example to follow in boot camp. He was a celebrity after winning his medal of honor on Guadalcanal and was used actively in raising war bond money. He could have rode that out, but insisted on getting back in the fight and died on Iwo Jima. His hometown in NJ still has a parade and celebration honoring him every year.

  80. @Jefferson
    "It doesn’t fit into modern categories so it’s forgotten"

    That's because we Italians do not belong to the coalition of the fringes, but the Japanese certainly do. The Japs vote in a monolithic bloc for The Democratic Party. Has anybody here ever met a Jap Republican?

    Japanese Americans are a lot more Left Wing than the Japs in Japan.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Milo Minderbinder, @snorlax, @Anonymous, @Sam Lawrence

    Has anybody here ever met a Jap Republican?

    Well, there was this guy.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S._I._Hayakawa

    • Replies: @stillCARealist
    @Milo Minderbinder

    All the Japanese I've ever known were conservative Republicans or Independents. They tend to have money and goals in life.

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Milo Minderbinder

    Hayakawa was a Canadian immigrant. He scoffed at the reparations trough, which brought the criticism that his family wasn't interned so he wouldn't qualify anyway.

    I liked his comment about the Canal: "We stole it fair and square!" Jeff Greenfield worked for his opponent Alan Cranston's campaign, and was quite impressed at Hayakawa's tactical skill in political warfare.

  81. @Spotted Toad
    It probably made a difference for how Italians were treated in post-WWII American culture that the Fascist government collapsed relatively early in the campaign. It was still no picnic, as my grandfather who lost his leg in Italy could tell you (https://spottedtoad.wordpress.com/2016/09/28/real-american-hero/ ), but the GIs were mostly fighting Nazis rather than Italians.
    I'm sure invading via Sicily and then Southern Italy made strategic sense, but I also wonder if it was expected to be easier to get the local population on your side, since Italian-American immigration had been so disproportionately from the South.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Buffalo Joe, @Seamus Padraig

    ST, I think Sicily had beaches to assault and hold and they would become a staging area for the move up the “Boot.” Remember also, that the German troops stationed in Sicily and Italy were seen as an invading force by the general population.

  82. @wren
    It is interesting to read about all the Japanese Americans fighting the Germans and Italians in WWII, knowing that there were also plenty of German Americans fighting the Japanese.

    Do/did we have Afghan Americans fighting the Iraqis and Iraqi Americans fighting the Taliban?

    Replies: @Romanian, @bomag, @Captain Tripps

    Do/did we have Afghan Americans fighting the Iraqis and Iraqi Americans fighting the Taliban?

    We have a pretty large population, so almost certainly there have been some examples of what you cite. But not anywhere near the levels of how many Italian-Americans and German-Americans fought on our side in WWII.

    Remember, Americans of German ancestry are the largest sub-ethnic population in the United States, and in fact Germans have been here in large numbers since the mid-1800’s. I have ancestry from this group of German immigrants on my mother’s side. Indeed, the XI (11th) Corps of the Army of the Potomac in the Civil War was composed of a majority of German immigrants, many of whom didn’t even speak English, they had arrived so soon. Looking at some of the names of their commanders gives you a sense of the picture (Schurz, Schimmelfennig, von Steinwehr, Stahel). Unfortunately, for them, they took the brunt of Lee’s better generals (Jackson at Chancellorville, and Early at Gettysburg) and earned a reputation for poor combat (mostly due to their inept commanders). By the time of WWII, millions of Americans had significant German ancestry and were well assimilated into the mainstream of American (WASP) culture, as evidenced by Ike (Eisenhower) being our top General in the European theater. Those who weren’t apt to do so probably migrated back to the Fatherland after WWI, when anti-German sentiment (both official and unofficial) was pretty high.

    In fact, Ike’s election to the Presidency represented the culmination of German-Americans’ ascendancy in the dominant WASP culture; I believe Ike was the first non-Anglo/Dutch (at least by surname) American to be elected President.

    Same goes for Italian-Americans, to a lesser extent. There were millions whose ancestors had arrived in the late 1800’s/early 1900’s to make them thoroughly American by the time of the war.

    • Replies: @Taco
    @Captain Tripps

    Was James Buchanan Irish?

    Replies: @Captain Tripps, @John Galt

    , @PV van der Byl
    @Captain Tripps

    You may be technically correct about Ike being the first President without either an Anglo-Celtic or Dutch name.

    But, the original surname of Herbert Hoover's Swiss-German ancestors was Huber, a pretty common name in German speaking countries and not uncommon in the U.S. today.

    So, Huber was anglicized to Hoover. But, I would bet the original spelling of Ike's family name was Eisenhauer ("Iron-hewer"). So, even his name probably went through some anglicization.

  83. @Steve Sailer
    @eah

    My father told me that he once was speaking to an Italian air force general whose unit had scores of F-104s. My father asked the Italian what their secret was. The West Germans were always complaining about how lethal the F-104 was to their pilots, but the Italians never did.

    "Oh, our pilots die too," the Italian general replied. "We just don't complain about it."

    Replies: @Anon, @Anonymous, @David In TN

    In a book I read many years ago about the air war in North Africa circa 1941-42, the consensus was the Italian fighter pilots were better from the flying point of view than their German allies and their British enemies.

    The Italian fighter pilots treated air combat like a medieval joust while the Germans had aggressive expert/leaders out to shoot down Allied planes and run up high victory totals.

    • Replies: @Spork
    @David In TN

    Speed costs fuel which Italy was always critically short of. Italian warplanes were optimized for manoverability rather than speed because of this. This was in contrast to the "boom and zoom" tactics of other airforces which emphasized speed over manoverability.

  84. @Anonymous
    @Jefferson

    'Japanese-Americans' are, literally, a dying people. Due to a very high intermarriage rate with white Americans, (over 50%), Japanese-Americans will ,effectively, vanish from the USA at some future date.
    Considering how ethno-centric the Japanese in Japan are, credit must be given to the Japanese-Americans for more or less unilaterally dissolving their distinctiveness away, perhaps as a 'price' for 'being American'.

    Replies: @Jim Sweeney, @stillCARealist

    I think it more likely that American men adore Japanese women most of whom have retained their ancestral traits of femininity and sexual submission in addition to their charm, style and beauty. And, No, I’m not married to a Japanese woman; I’m not even married.

  85. @SPMoore8
    Bearing in mind that the post was about the treatment of Italian nationals in WW2, all I can say is that I've been aware of it for a long time, and that German relations in my family were also harassed in both world wars on the west coast. And non-German relations got a lot of negative feedback for defending them.

    Wars breed hysteria and hysteria breeds mob violence. It's nothing to be proud of, people shouldn't make excuses for it, and the internment of the Japanese was (objectively) unnecessary, since there was no effort made to intern them in Hawaii (because they were too numerous).

    On the other hand, as someone has already noted, there was a lot of hostility towards Japanese after Pearl Harbor (and even before, to be honest), who mostly were in gardening and truck gardening work, as I have heard. Segregating the Japanese was a good way to ensure we didn't have lynchings on the West Coast, which was a real possibility, given the blatantly public and endorsed by the California governor lynching of the two white guys who killed Brooke Hart (Jewish son of a store owner) in 1936 in a public park in San Jose.

    In that sense, the bad part about the internment is that a lot of Japanese lost their property, either outright or at a loss, which was unjust and that is why the recompense that came under Reagan was only fair. As the focus of this blog post shows, the Italians (and probably Germans as well) suffered similar financial losses.

    During WW1 the hysteria was particularly bad towards Germans, and I was surprised to find some years ago that sometimes Jewish Germans were caught up in that net, based on some old articles from midwest newspapers I was reading.

    The love affair we engaged in with Italians and Japanese postwar probably had a lot to do with war brides plus the fact that most of the American action (in both senses of the word) took place in Italy, where sizable Americans were stationed for nearly three years. (In contrast, the Americans were only in Northern Europe from June 44 to May 45; and there was a clamor to bring them home ASAP after that.)

    I think overall the Japanese internment was a mistake (NB: It was only on the coastal areas, not everywhere, compare Hayakawa's career (he was a Canuck anyway, IIRC)) but as described I think I can understand why it was done. Nevertheless it's a useful tonic to those who think this kind of itemization and segregation of large groups of people, accompanied by some rather rabid group hatred, could only happen under Euro dictatorships (Germany, Russia) but could never happen in our democracy. Of course, the fact that we didn't kill our prisoners after interning them is very much to our credit.

    I'm surprised there is zero sympathy for either Germans or Italians expressed here, the lack of sympathy for Japanese not so much.

    As for the the future, Michelle Malkin (Filipina born in US) wrote a book defending the Japanese internment and also floated the idea for Muslims. Clearly we have to do something about Muslim immigration but the fact that we as a nation did not flip out after 9/11 is to Bush's credit, it might be the only thing he got right in his presidency.

    Replies: @Marcus, @CAL, @Anonymous Rice Alum 4

    I can’t find it now but I once read the contemporary Army document on their recommendation for internment. (It had the misused quote about nothing happening and therefore that was troubling). Anyways, the military wanted to exclude Japanese citizens from defense industry areas to prevent sabotage. The problem was that there were so many exclusion zones and based on where the Japanese were located, it effectively resulted in all of them being relocated. Just having them move wasn’t really feasible because no community was going to be happy with large groups of Japanese moving into the neighborhood. In reality, the camps were probably the best choice in a bad situation.

    Yes, Hawaii had a large Japanese population but it didn’t have much in the way of military industry. It had military bases which were already under military control. The Army didn’t have the resources to secure every production plant on the coast.

  86. People always overreact in times of war and crisis, because they are terrified of seeming not to do enough.

    The most egregious story I know of is set in Hartlepool, England in the Napoleonic Wars when local inhabitants were reported to have hanged a ship-wrecked monkey wearing a French uniform on suspicion of being a Frenchman. Well, if you had never met a Frenchman, how would you know the difference, so why take chances, especially if it refused to answer questions?

    The story is probably apocryphal.

    Clearly there is a huge difference between what people at the very top of the decision-making chain and ordinary citizens perceive as dangers in time of war.

    One can think of all kinds of hypothetical reasons why some Japanese residents or citizens might represent a danger in the event of a hypothetical invasion, so why take any chances when interning Japs could create plenty of jobs, catering contracts, construction, and so on?

    Italians, yes if they were in small numbers in militarily sensitive areas, or if they were Frank Sinatra, but interning German Americans would have been altogether too large scale a project, besides which many of them had blonde hair and Norman Rockwell looks.

    We all know that 99% of Muslims are decent and harmless, but what are we supposed to do about the 1% of criminal lunatics? Clearly, as in the case of TSA theater in airports, we have to have some kind of a show of nontolerance, even if we know it will ultimately deter no one.

    During the short-lived reign of England’s King Edward VIII during the Depression he traveled in 1936 to South Wales, an area that was particularly affected, resulting in many families being reduced to poverty and the new King was very moved by the poverty he witnessed. When he remarked that “something must be done to find these people work.” it gained him the approval of the people, but not well received by the government, so nothing much was done until World War II presented numerous employment possibilities from 1939 onwards.

    Islamic terrorism presents one of those “something must be done” scenarios. Something must be done, otherwise it will look like nothing is being done.

    • Replies: @Alec Leamas
    @Jonathan Mason


    We all know that 99% of Muslims are decent and harmless, but what are we supposed to do about the 1% of criminal lunatics? Clearly, as in the case of TSA theater in airports, we have to have some kind of a show of nontolerance, even if we know it will ultimately deter no one.
     
    You might want to revise this estimate. The percentage of Muslims who believe that terrorism is justified "in some cases" is much greater than 1% and the percentage of sympathizers greater still, with substantially all of the rest apparently believing that the tragedy of acts of terrorism is the likelihood of an "Islamophobic" response that rarely if ever ensues. In any event, as has been seen in places like France and Belgium, the terrorist/peaceful Muslim deal is a gambit. The would-be terrorist moves effortlessly through the greater "Peaceful Muslim community" where he receives aid and support personally and through "charities" (some unwitting, but some undeniably witting), further religious instruction and fortification, and into which he can disappear on the occasion of suspicion and which will press opposition to "Islamophobia" as a distraction from terrorist acts. It all works very much in concert, with concentric rings of tolerance, sympathy and support in the "Peaceful Muslim Community."

    What percentage of these people would you consider "decent and harmless" because they're not currently in the act of killing people?:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDbaVoOmeDs

  87. @Buffalo Joe
    @Steve Sailer

    Steve, Every Italian-American has heard the "jokes', I prefer insults, about Italians in warfare, but many Italian Americans distinquished themselves in WWII, including Sgt. John Basilone, USMC. Basilone was awarded the Medal of Honor for his heroic lone stand against a company of Japanese at Guadacanal and later at Iwo Jima, where he was awarded the Navy Cross. John was killed in action at Iwo. I may be wrong but I think Basilone and Audey Murphy are the only recipients of both a Medal of Honor and a Service Cross.

    Replies: @David In TN, @william munny

    Alvin C. York also received both the Medal of Honor and the Distinguished Service Cross in World War I.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @David In TN

    David, Thank you for the information.

    , @eah
  88. If you grew up in Maryland–and are old–you know who Gino Marchetti is. One of the Greatest defensive ends in NFL history, his parents were Italian immigrants living in the Bay Area of Northern California. The war came and they were locked up.

    The way I read it, when his parents got interned, Gino got so mad he enlisted in the U.S. Army Infantry and literally fought his way across Europe to cover the shame (yes, he was embarrassed to have his parents locked up).

    When he came back home he played football for University of San Francisco. He was also one of those home coming hell raising motorcycle club members who invaded small towns in California, got drunk and scared the hell out of everybody. The movie, “The Wild Ones” was about his motorcycle club.

    Anyways, he still alive, is a devote Catholic and a member of the Knights of Columbus. He is a great American, and he never complained about having his parents locked up, he understood that we were at war with the Italians.

    • Replies: @Black Death
    @Tim

    Well' I'm old, and I remember Gino. He lived on Greendale Road, across from the old VA Hospital, near Memorial Stadium, where he played. Art Donovan lived on the same street. My family had a house one block over. All of us kids idolized the players (Brook Robinson also lived there).

  89. @The Only Catholic Unionist
    Yes, it's difficult now to imagine that there was a time when cooking pasta was such an alien concept that people once had to get spaghetti catered.

    (Or that in some areas of the country, people thought Dean Martin was singing "Like a big piece of pie" in That's Amore because they had no idea what pizza was.)

    Replies: @Natureboy, @Je Suis Charlie Martel, @Thea

    IIRC, Russell Baker decided to become a writer in middle school when he wrote about his country family’s first experience trying to eat spaghetti and the classroom cracked up…

  90. I was listening to a lengthy biography of Humboldt. It was good in many ways; the meandering chapters on various people he met—Goethe, Bolivar, Jefferson, Darwin—gave a nice view on the times. The author was weak at writing science and dealt with it surprisingly little. At any rate, I enjoyed the book, but the final chapter considering Humboldt’s legacy took a bizarre turn. Though Humboldt was a huge 19th Century celebrity with several American towns and counties named for him, he had slipped into obscurity in 20th Century America. The reason? War-generated prejudice against Germans. Listening to this, I looked again at the author’s name: Andrea Wulf.

    There may be something to what Wulf wrote, a reminder that these unpleasant things hit lots of people and groups, but it also seemed that in the 21st Century being able to claim membership in a victimized group has great appeal, even for groups as large, established, and mainstream as the German-descended.

  91. @Spotted Toad
    It probably made a difference for how Italians were treated in post-WWII American culture that the Fascist government collapsed relatively early in the campaign. It was still no picnic, as my grandfather who lost his leg in Italy could tell you (https://spottedtoad.wordpress.com/2016/09/28/real-american-hero/ ), but the GIs were mostly fighting Nazis rather than Italians.
    I'm sure invading via Sicily and then Southern Italy made strategic sense, but I also wonder if it was expected to be easier to get the local population on your side, since Italian-American immigration had been so disproportionately from the South.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Buffalo Joe, @Seamus Padraig

    I’m sure invading via Sicily and then Southern Italy made strategic sense, but I also wonder if it was expected to be easier to get the local population on your side, since Italian-American immigration had been so disproportionately from the South.

    Another point to consider: by dispatching Lucky Luciano to Sicily, they were also able to get the mafia on the side of the US. That came in handy when it was time to steal an election from the Communists after the war!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucky_Luciano#World_War_II.2C_freedom.2C_and_deportation

    • Replies: @Adar.
    @Seamus Padraig

    Mafiosi in Sicily did prepare the way for American troops invading. English troops when they came ashore I am not sure they got so much help?

  92. OT

  93. @Steve Sailer
    @M_Young

    There was a pro-Japanese American movie from MGM at least as early as 1951, "Go For Broke," about the Fighting 442nd regiment that won so many medals in Europe:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_for_Broke!_(1951_film)

    It did fairly well at the box office and the screenplay got an Oscar nomination. I saw it on TV when I was a kid.

    Replies: @tamako, @Captain Tripps, @Buddwing

    I believe the late Pat Morita’s character Mr. Kesuke Miyagi in the “Karate Kid” franchise was a 442nd Regimental Combat Team (RCT) Medal of Honor recipient whose backstory was that he lost his wife and son (during childbirth) in an internment camp. The real Pat Morita actually did spend a year and a half in an internment camp as an adolescent.

    P.S.: The late Senator Daniel Inouye was a MOH recipient of the 442nd.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Captain Tripps

    Inouye was an uncle tom traitor.

    Imagine you are living as a gringo minority in Mexico. Suppose there is war between US and Mexico, and suppose Mexico dispossesses all gringos and throws your family into internment camp.

    Would you fight for Mexico? Only a worthless uncle tom gringo would.

    These yellows are uncle tom dogs. They fought, killed, and died for the very government that had the lowest opinion of their kind.

  94. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    With rise in PC and anti-Russianism, maybe Joe McCarthy will be rehabilitated by the Progs.

    Btw, when will MSM call for US apology for aiding the Zionist Nakba against Palestinians that was far far worse than the ‘internment’ of the Japanese who were soon released and allowed to return to their lives?

    Palestinians still live under occupation or in exile.

    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    @Anon

    With rise in PC and anti-Russianism, maybe Joe McCarthy will be rehabilitated by the Progs. -- It's my understanding that McCarthy and his counsel, Roy Cohn, were both LGBTQQIAA, so their rehabilitation is only a matter of time.

  95. Germans got it pretty bad in WWI in America.

    Some got interned in WWII, but few know about it.

    http://takimag.com/article/the_nazi_kid_from_brooklyn_david_cole/print#axzz4RXq6oPuo

    • Replies: @jacques sheete
    @Anon

    Yes. In fact the barracks used for basic trainees at Ft. Campbell, KY during the war on the Vietnamese had been previously used as German POW barracks according to the DIs back then.

  96. The old way: Forcing Japanese to be interned.

    The new way: Forcing whites in EU and US to be invaded and displaced.

    New seems worse.

  97. The mistreatment of Japanese-Americans was disgraceful, but, in its historical context, was understandable. The nation was shocked by the unprovoked attack on Pearl Harbor, and there was a lot of concern about a potential Japanese landing on the west coast. In fact, with the benefit of hindsight, this was not possible. The Japanese almost certainly could have taken the Hawaiian Islands, but reaching the US mainland was unrealistic because of severe fuel restrictions for their fleet. However, the Americans did not know this at the time. There was a great deal of hysteria in California following Pearl Harbor – for example, the 1942 Rose Bowl game (Duke vs. Oregon State) was relocated for the only time in its history to Durham, NC, because of invasion fears. So nobody wanted to take chances.

    The Japanese internment was proposed by liberal demigod Franklin Roosevelt and enthusiastiacally support by another famous liberal, Earl Warren, who became governor of California in 1943. The legality of all this was supported by the Supreme Court in two decisions, Hirabayashi v. United States and Korematsu v. United States, decided by identical 6-3 votes, with another liberal demigod, William Douglas, voting with the majorities in both cases.

    BTW, it is interesting to consider what might have happened if the Japanese had seized Hawaii. Reaching the US mainland would have not have been possible, but the end of the war might have been delayed until 1946 or even 1947. If the Japanese had treated the inhabitants of Hawaii the way they treated their other conquered peoples (say, the Chinese, Philipinos or Koreans), the Americans would have been seething for revenge. By late 1946 or early 1947, the US would have had over a dozen atomic bombs and would have probably dropped them all on Japan. The war would have ended with the Japanese home islands turned into radioactive cinders.

  98. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Folks here clearly see the internment as justified “punishment” for the “other.”

    Misses the point. The criticism was that it was directed against Japanese AMERICANS. Now Sailer and most of the commenters may not regard them as Americans, but legally they were. So you’re justifying punitive measures against Americans because elsewhere, aliens were fighting other Americans.

    You further confuse the issue by bringing up measures against Italian ALIENS.

    And then the coup de grace… bringing up Tule Lake, the camp that was set up for the most hard core Japanese militarists, most of whom were either immigrants (so could not naturalize) or had spent virtually all their lives in Japan – and using that as an exemplar of all Nissei.

    The Japanese AMERICANS were in a no-win situation. The Army considered the fact that there had been no incidents of sabotage as proof that there was a larger sleeper section of saboteurs in the population. How do you argue with logic like that?

    Also revealing: if any locale was vulnerable, it was Hawaii. Yet the Nissei were far more critical to the local economy there than on the West Coast, so there was no internment, no destruction of businesses, homes, families, farms.

    But… it was ok to do all that because Pearl Harbor. Yeah, we rounded up tens of thousands and destroyed their livelihoods because they were of the same “racial stock” (as Korematsu put it) as the enemy. But that’s fine because once in them they were paid the same as US Army privates. And people who looked like them were doing horrific things across the Pacific.

    Funny thing too about the people who did the horrific things – unlike Nuremberg, almost none of them got punished. The Commander of Unit 731 – google it if you want to lose your lunch – went on to head a pharmaceutical company and even became chair of the Japanese Medical Association.

    • Replies: @Seth Largo
    @Anonymous

    1/3 of the interred Japanese were not citizens. As far as I can make out from La Wik's sources, only 1/10 of the interred Germans were not citizens.

    The 1940s saw massive forced movements of many populations in Europe and the Americas. If we set the forced movement of Jews into German death camps as the most brutal, then the interment of Japs, Krauts, and Wops in America would be at the opposite end. Somewhere in the middle would be the forced expulsions of ethnic Germans across Europe after the war. However, most Latin American countries also rounded up Japs, Krauts, and Wops, and I imagine a Colombian interment camp would have sucked way worse than living in the Eastern Sierras.

    At any rate, this is one of those times in history where there's plenty of blame to go around. So it's telling when progressives rend their garments over Japanese interment but shed no ink for the white folks it happened to.

    , @Spork
    @Anonymous

    The likely reason that Japanese in Hawaii weren't interned was that for the duration of the war the islands were swarming with soldiers and sailors, which made acts of sabotage or rebellion by civilians futile. The Japanese in Hawaii weren't put in camps because the islands themselves were effectively a giant camp.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  99. About 10,000 Germans were interred as well. The de-Germanification of the Midwest during and between the wars is a story yet to be told in detail. Many places today remain 90% German but no one speaks the language, no omas cook old world meals, and their Oktoberfests suck.

    Of course, the de-Germanification was self-enforced to a great extent (though one old timer I’ve spoken to remembers cross burnings in front of his Lutheran church).

    The original founders were nationalists, and the first 50 years of the republic can be viewed as an ethnic nation state. It wasn’t until the 19th and early 20th centuries, during the large-scale migration and eventual assimilation of continental Europeans, that our new national sense of self evolved: nation of immigrants and all that.

    Which is true, but only half the story. The other half, oft repeated by David Goldman (aka Spengler), is that the immigrants’ price of admission was to give up their old world identities and forge new American ones grounded in commerce and a Protestant work ethic. As Brad Pitt says in Killing Them Softly: “America is not a country. It’s a business. Now give me my f—ing money.”

    That’s the “nation of immigrants” that I feel most nostalgic about and continue to connect with on a personal level: the nation of people who recognized that their old countries sucked and that America offered a place to start again.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @Seth Largo

    BD, The Pacific Theatre of Operations was the largest battlefield in world history. The Japanese landed troops on the Aleutian Islands so there is a chance that they could have landed assault forces in the Canadian Northwest and fought their way south to the state of Washington. The Japanese troops carried minimal supplies and scavenged and foraged as they went. During the Civil War Robert E.Lee's thrust northward, that ended with the Battle of Gettysburg, was actually part of a plan to hit Harrisburg, Pa and make the civilian population of the North demand a cessation to the fighting.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

  100. Another couple of decades, and the only thing that will be remembered of Franklin Roosevelt is…

    True. I’ve spoken with people from their teens to those in their thirties who have barely heard about the US war on the Vietnamese. I doubt any of them would have a clue about FDR. I have to remember to bring him up next time I talk with any of them.

    Also, although I haven’t read all of the comments, I’m as amazed as I am disgusted with the parroting of WW2 propaganda in many of them. Apparently old myths die hard. If ever.

    Some here would benefit from getting up to date, so here’s a start.:

    “Revisionism as applied to World War II and its origins (as also for previous wars) has the general function of bringing historical truth to an American and a world public that had been drugged by wartime lies and propaganda.

    The least of the lessons that revisionism can teach has already been thoroughly learned ( ed: by a select few): that Germany and Japan are not uniquely “aggressor nations,” doomed from birth to menace the peace of the world. The larger lessons have, unfortunately, yet to be learned.”

    Now revisionism teaches us that this entire myth, so prevalent then and even now about Hitler, and about the Japanese, is a tissue of fallacies from beginning to end. Every plank in this nightmare evidence is either completely untrue or not entirely the truth.

    If people should learn this intellectual fraud about Hitler’s Germany, then they will begin to ask questions, and searching questions…”

    Murray Rothbard, Revisionism for Our Times, 1966. Note: This gentleman was also Jewish.
    http://mises.org/daily/2592

    Smedley Butler’s “War is a Racket” dealt with the causes of ww1, but it applies equally well to ww2, which was, as usual but contrary to the preferred mythology, an economic war. In fact there were not 2 wars; what we refer to as ww2 was merely a continuation of WW1, and they continue to this day.

  101. @SPMoore8
    @whorefinder

    Pearl Harbor is definitely the worst in theater experience I ever had. I took my daughters to go see it the summer it came out, after being bored out of my mind I checked my watch and we were only 15 minutes into it.

    Everything about that film sucked, from the biplane childhood character establishment, to the hot chicks at Hickham field, to the Titanic ripoff in New York harbor, to the Doolittle Raid tacked on in the finale, etc.

    Nevertheless, I can attest that my mother -- in her 90's -- liked it on DVD. I guess you had to have been there.

    WW2 movies lost steam after Vietnam and made a big uptick thanks to the first Gulf War (which made war good again) and the Greatest Generation meme. Saving Private Ryan was the big one, I don't know if there's been anything before or since that was popular. (Holocaust movies aren't exactly the same thing, since they usually feature no combat.)

    Replies: @Captain Tripps

    I don’t know if there’s been anything before or since that was popular.

    Not a movie but the HBO mini-series Band of Brothers was pretty popular. BofB was released in 2001, 3 years after Saving Private Ryan, and can be viewed as Hanks and Spielberg continuing the general “Great Crusade” thread of Saving Private Ryan. Both franchises spun-off a whole genre of first-person shooter games for the PC and console box industries.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medal_of_Honor_(series)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_of_Heroes

    • Agree: SPMoore8
  102. @Gabriel M

    (One difference is that the Axis more or less was.)
     
    This is not true. The Nazis and, still more so, the Japanese, were in the grip of some seriously evil madness, but they were neither individually, nor in concert, trying to conquer the world. There was only one country involved in WW2 who was trying to conquer the world and, not coincidentally, it was the country that actually did.

    Replies: @bomag, @Hibernian, @Bill Jones, @snorlax, @Sam Haysom, @Anonymous, @neon2

    Why do people still use the term “Nazis”?

    At the peak, members of the National Socialist Party numbered about 5 million.

    They were a minority in the Wehrmacht too.

  103. @Dr. X
    @Andy


    There might have been abuses, but the internement of Japanese Americans in WW2 wasn’t in itself wrong
     
    Correct. Article 1, Sec. 9 of the Constitution allows for the suspension of habeas corpus in times of invasion and rebellion and when "the public safety may require it."

    Certainly it was more humane than Stalin’s treatment of those ethnic minorities considered sympathetic to the Germans
     
    Certainly it was more humane than the way just about EVERY other belligerent treated POWs and other assorted internees -- particularly the way the Japanese treated Americans during the Bataan Death March or the Chinese at Nanking.

    70 years after World War II ended, only fools with a lot of time on their hands are crying their eyes out over the alleged mistreatment of perceived Axis sympathizers. War is hell. The Italian guy who lost $26,000 on his fishing boat didn't get his legs blown off, didn't get his sons killed, didn't get his family gassed in a death camp or his wife gang-raped by soldiers, did he? Sounds like he made out pretty good compared to a lot of other people.

    Replies: @Captain Tripps

    Certainly it was more humane than the way just about EVERY other belligerent treated POWs and other assorted internees

    Then there’s this:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_prisoners_of_war_in_the_United_States#After_the_war

    Its Wiki, so take it for what its worth, but there is a good list of largely independent research sources, as well as official government accounts/records.

    Interestingly, there were seven German POW camps in Maryland, and eleven in Virginia. Surprising given the proximity to the national government and the theoretical potential for German POW sabotage or other mayhem. Fortunately, their Teutonic sense of discipline, inability to communicate effectively with the homefront, and the genuinely decent conditions of our POW camps largely prevented this.

  104. @Jefferson
    "It doesn’t fit into modern categories so it’s forgotten"

    That's because we Italians do not belong to the coalition of the fringes, but the Japanese certainly do. The Japs vote in a monolithic bloc for The Democratic Party. Has anybody here ever met a Jap Republican?

    Japanese Americans are a lot more Left Wing than the Japs in Japan.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Milo Minderbinder, @snorlax, @Anonymous, @Sam Lawrence

    It’s funny, but I’m not sure I, in Massachusetts, have ever met a Japanese person period. Plenty of Chinese, Koreans, Vietnamese, Filipinos and even Taiwanese, but no Japanese I can think of. I do know a number of half-Asians with white fathers, so maybe one of them although I don’t think so.

    Oh, I know, the author of this book came in and talked to my 5th-grade class after we read it (some years before the Koreans raised a stink). I remember that she wore the full Japanese traditional dress (kimono etc), she was very polite and charming, she made tea and cookies for all the children and she still spoke with a thick accent after ~50 years of living here.

    The book as I recall was well-written and likely entirely accurate, although propaganda-ish in that it elided any of the necessary context about what the Japanese had done to the Koreans and Americans prior to the start of the narrative, and in any event far too intense for 10-year-olds.

  105. @Marcus
    @SPMoore8

    The British pioneered internment camps, not the Germans or Soviets. They also interned Italians and Germans in the UK during WW2.

    Replies: @SPMoore8, @jacques sheete

    I’m well aware of Britain’s leadership in the development of internment/concentration camps, but they are rarely discussed. Of course, since any kind of concentration camp pre-Stalin/Hitler can be described as “pre” Holocaust/GULAG, there’s always an effort to find such seeds in prior camp-life arrangements, and that extends (IIRC) well before the notorious Boer War camps the Brits established, and in which a large percentage of internees (old men, women, and children) died in epidemics. For example, I think there were such things in Cuba before the Spanish American War, as well, but I’m sure I’ve read descriptions that predate that by a long period of time.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @SPMoore8


    well before the notorious Boer War camps the Brits established, and in which a large percentage of internees (old men, women, and children) died in epidemics
     
    Andersonville predates the Boer War by nearly 40 years.

    Replies: @utu

  106. @Anon
    With rise in PC and anti-Russianism, maybe Joe McCarthy will be rehabilitated by the Progs.

    Btw, when will MSM call for US apology for aiding the Zionist Nakba against Palestinians that was far far worse than the 'internment' of the Japanese who were soon released and allowed to return to their lives?

    Palestinians still live under occupation or in exile.

    Replies: @SPMoore8

    With rise in PC and anti-Russianism, maybe Joe McCarthy will be rehabilitated by the Progs. — It’s my understanding that McCarthy and his counsel, Roy Cohn, were both LGBTQQIAA, so their rehabilitation is only a matter of time.

  107. @Gabriel M

    (One difference is that the Axis more or less was.)
     
    This is not true. The Nazis and, still more so, the Japanese, were in the grip of some seriously evil madness, but they were neither individually, nor in concert, trying to conquer the world. There was only one country involved in WW2 who was trying to conquer the world and, not coincidentally, it was the country that actually did.

    Replies: @bomag, @Hibernian, @Bill Jones, @snorlax, @Sam Haysom, @Anonymous, @neon2

    There was only one country involved in WW2 who was trying to conquer the world and, not coincidentally, it was the country that actually did.

    I think it’s most accurate to say there were two: the one that actually did, and the one that got about halfway thanks to all the help it got during that time from the leadership of the former.

  108. @whorefinder
    @Steve Sailer

    "Italy" as a nation-concept really only took hold in the 19th C. thanks to Napoleon and ensuing Romantic nationalistic movements. However, as any Italian could tell you, Italians are still separate, and constantly talking about separation and rebellion--notably, the North of Italy wants to secede from the rest.

    After the Roman Empire fell, Italy split up into various smaller states that never really unified (unless some conqueror swept in and subjugated them for a period). Venice became a wealthy trading Republic more connected with the East than West, Florence and Rome battled each other for regional and cultural dominance, Sicily became a separate island stronghold for Muslims first, then Normans, then a bunch of rival mafia clans.

    The lack of unity among Italians within Italy might explain some of their less-than-stellar battlefield reputation since reunification: they are more of a coalition of cranky factions who don't really like each other rather than a unified front.

    Replies: @Alec Leamas

    As it is supposedly said in the North, “Garibaldi didn’t unite Italy, he divided Africa.”

  109. @Anonymous
    @Jefferson

    'Japanese-Americans' are, literally, a dying people. Due to a very high intermarriage rate with white Americans, (over 50%), Japanese-Americans will ,effectively, vanish from the USA at some future date.
    Considering how ethno-centric the Japanese in Japan are, credit must be given to the Japanese-Americans for more or less unilaterally dissolving their distinctiveness away, perhaps as a 'price' for 'being American'.

    Replies: @Jim Sweeney, @stillCARealist

    Yeah, all the Japanese people I know are either mixed or married to a white American. In fact, I’m not sure I’ve ever known a Japanese mother and father with children. Probably because there’s so few of them here in CA. The Chinese, while they marry plenty of whites, seem to find same-race marriage partners with relative ease.

  110. My American born grandmother, my one grandparent born in the US, married an Italian. There is some doubtless garbled story in her family about how she was given a hard time trying to vote in World War II, on the grounds that marrying my grandfather meant she had given up her citizenship.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @eD

    @eD,

    until fairly late in the 20th century, American women who married aliens lost their citizenship.

    Your grandmother's story may not be garbled: even if the law had changed, not every precinct worker would have known, and there were issues about whether it applied retroactively.

    I'm assuming you're here and it worked out.

    , @Jack D
    @eD

    Apparently this was the law at the time - the same thing happened to my wife's grandmother. She was American born but my wife's grandfather had come here as teen and was not yet a citizen when they married. To show you how far we have gone, at that time (I assume this was part of the Immigration Act of 1924 though I'm not sure), if an American born (woman?) married a non-citizen, she would lose her citizenship too and would have to reapply to get it back if/when her spouse became eligible. I'm guessing that this was in part to prevent "green card marriages" and chain migration. But that was in the old racist, sexist horrible days when we did things like win world wars in 3.5 years.

  111. @David In TN
    @Buffalo Joe

    Alvin C. York also received both the Medal of Honor and the Distinguished Service Cross in World War I.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @eah

    David, Thank you for the information.

  112. @Milo Minderbinder
    @Jefferson

    Has anybody here ever met a Jap Republican?

    Well, there was this guy.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S._I._Hayakawa

    Replies: @stillCARealist, @Reg Cæsar

    All the Japanese I’ve ever known were conservative Republicans or Independents. They tend to have money and goals in life.

  113. You don’t need an aircraft carrier to cause trouble in wartime.

    For decades before the war Italian immigrants had been causing plenty of mayhem using nothing more than guns and bombs. The Niihau Japanese-Americans were worrisome with hardly any weapons at all.

    Good guys, too: the French Resistance didn’t have much firepower. That wasn’t the point.

  114. @Captain Tripps
    @wren


    Do/did we have Afghan Americans fighting the Iraqis and Iraqi Americans fighting the Taliban?
     
    We have a pretty large population, so almost certainly there have been some examples of what you cite. But not anywhere near the levels of how many Italian-Americans and German-Americans fought on our side in WWII.

    Remember, Americans of German ancestry are the largest sub-ethnic population in the United States, and in fact Germans have been here in large numbers since the mid-1800's. I have ancestry from this group of German immigrants on my mother's side. Indeed, the XI (11th) Corps of the Army of the Potomac in the Civil War was composed of a majority of German immigrants, many of whom didn't even speak English, they had arrived so soon. Looking at some of the names of their commanders gives you a sense of the picture (Schurz, Schimmelfennig, von Steinwehr, Stahel). Unfortunately, for them, they took the brunt of Lee's better generals (Jackson at Chancellorville, and Early at Gettysburg) and earned a reputation for poor combat (mostly due to their inept commanders). By the time of WWII, millions of Americans had significant German ancestry and were well assimilated into the mainstream of American (WASP) culture, as evidenced by Ike (Eisenhower) being our top General in the European theater. Those who weren't apt to do so probably migrated back to the Fatherland after WWI, when anti-German sentiment (both official and unofficial) was pretty high.

    In fact, Ike's election to the Presidency represented the culmination of German-Americans' ascendancy in the dominant WASP culture; I believe Ike was the first non-Anglo/Dutch (at least by surname) American to be elected President.

    Same goes for Italian-Americans, to a lesser extent. There were millions whose ancestors had arrived in the late 1800's/early 1900's to make them thoroughly American by the time of the war.

    Replies: @Taco, @PV van der Byl

    Was James Buchanan Irish?

    • Replies: @Captain Tripps
    @Taco

    I believe both Jackson and Buchanan were descendants of Ulster Scots-Irish, so they would be considered under the general original founding stock lumped into "Anglo", though with very different temperaments than the Founding Fathers. See David Hackett-Fischer's "Albions Seed" for a good, detailed treatment of the four different "English" settler groups into colonial North America.

    , @John Galt
    @Taco

    Scots-Irish Protestant.

  115. Anonymous [AKA "Anonymous Brown Horde"] says:
    @eD
    My American born grandmother, my one grandparent born in the US, married an Italian. There is some doubtless garbled story in her family about how she was given a hard time trying to vote in World War II, on the grounds that marrying my grandfather meant she had given up her citizenship.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Jack D

    ,

    until fairly late in the 20th century, American women who married aliens lost their citizenship.

    Your grandmother’s story may not be garbled: even if the law had changed, not every precinct worker would have known, and there were issues about whether it applied retroactively.

    I’m assuming you’re here and it worked out.

  116. “The excessive treatment of Italians in Northern California was particularly strange because, unlike the Japanese aircraft carriers, which ran amok from 12/7/41 to 6/4/42, there was no conceivable way for Mussolini’s fleet to get to San Francisco. ”

    They could have done espionage.

  117. Okay so we all know that the ruling political axiom in the USA reads as such :

    “Democrats can get away with anything for which republicans would be excoriated”

    And FDR was a democrat.

    Authenticjazzman “Mensa” Society member of forty-plus years and pro jazz artist

  118. @Seamus Padraig
    @Spotted Toad


    I’m sure invading via Sicily and then Southern Italy made strategic sense, but I also wonder if it was expected to be easier to get the local population on your side, since Italian-American immigration had been so disproportionately from the South.
     
    Another point to consider: by dispatching Lucky Luciano to Sicily, they were also able to get the mafia on the side of the US. That came in handy when it was time to steal an election from the Communists after the war!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucky_Luciano#World_War_II.2C_freedom.2C_and_deportation

    Replies: @Adar.

    Mafiosi in Sicily did prepare the way for American troops invading. English troops when they came ashore I am not sure they got so much help?

  119. @Jonathan Mason
    People always overreact in times of war and crisis, because they are terrified of seeming not to do enough.

    The most egregious story I know of is set in Hartlepool, England in the Napoleonic Wars when local inhabitants were reported to have hanged a ship-wrecked monkey wearing a French uniform on suspicion of being a Frenchman. Well, if you had never met a Frenchman, how would you know the difference, so why take chances, especially if it refused to answer questions?

    The story is probably apocryphal.

    Clearly there is a huge difference between what people at the very top of the decision-making chain and ordinary citizens perceive as dangers in time of war.

    One can think of all kinds of hypothetical reasons why some Japanese residents or citizens might represent a danger in the event of a hypothetical invasion, so why take any chances when interning Japs could create plenty of jobs, catering contracts, construction, and so on?

    Italians, yes if they were in small numbers in militarily sensitive areas, or if they were Frank Sinatra, but interning German Americans would have been altogether too large scale a project, besides which many of them had blonde hair and Norman Rockwell looks.

    We all know that 99% of Muslims are decent and harmless, but what are we supposed to do about the 1% of criminal lunatics? Clearly, as in the case of TSA theater in airports, we have to have some kind of a show of nontolerance, even if we know it will ultimately deter no one.

    During the short-lived reign of England's King Edward VIII during the Depression he traveled in 1936 to South Wales, an area that was particularly affected, resulting in many families being reduced to poverty and the new King was very moved by the poverty he witnessed. When he remarked that "something must be done to find these people work." it gained him the approval of the people, but not well received by the government, so nothing much was done until World War II presented numerous employment possibilities from 1939 onwards.

    Islamic terrorism presents one of those "something must be done" scenarios. Something must be done, otherwise it will look like nothing is being done.

    Replies: @Alec Leamas

    We all know that 99% of Muslims are decent and harmless, but what are we supposed to do about the 1% of criminal lunatics? Clearly, as in the case of TSA theater in airports, we have to have some kind of a show of nontolerance, even if we know it will ultimately deter no one.

    You might want to revise this estimate. The percentage of Muslims who believe that terrorism is justified “in some cases” is much greater than 1% and the percentage of sympathizers greater still, with substantially all of the rest apparently believing that the tragedy of acts of terrorism is the likelihood of an “Islamophobic” response that rarely if ever ensues. In any event, as has been seen in places like France and Belgium, the terrorist/peaceful Muslim deal is a gambit. The would-be terrorist moves effortlessly through the greater “Peaceful Muslim community” where he receives aid and support personally and through “charities” (some unwitting, but some undeniably witting), further religious instruction and fortification, and into which he can disappear on the occasion of suspicion and which will press opposition to “Islamophobia” as a distraction from terrorist acts. It all works very much in concert, with concentric rings of tolerance, sympathy and support in the “Peaceful Muslim Community.”

    What percentage of these people would you consider “decent and harmless” because they’re not currently in the act of killing people?:

  120. @The Only Catholic Unionist
    Yes, it's difficult now to imagine that there was a time when cooking pasta was such an alien concept that people once had to get spaghetti catered.

    (Or that in some areas of the country, people thought Dean Martin was singing "Like a big piece of pie" in That's Amore because they had no idea what pizza was.)

    Replies: @Natureboy, @Je Suis Charlie Martel, @Thea

    Yogurt was still quite exotic in the 1950s

  121. @eah
    @Anon

    Reminds me of this anecdote about Stalingrad: the Germans used satellite troops on the flanks while their Sixth Army attacked the city -- the Red Army crashed the flanks and surrounded the Germans in Stalingrad -- early on, an Italian staff officer reportedly asked the Germans about Italian casualties, and was told: 'No casualties at all, they're running'.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Diversity Heretic

    In fairness to the mostly Roumanian troops on the flanks of the German Sixth Army, their anti-tank weapons were totally inadequate and Paulus failed to maintain a mobile reserve to counter the Red Army’s thrust north and south of the city. No matter how brave you are, if your anti-tank weapons won’t do more than scratch the paint of your adversaries’ tanks, a strategic withdrawal may be a sound move. In addition, you usually incur more casualties from running away than from even an orderly withdrawal.

  122. @Romanian
    @wren

    Not a lot of them, since fewer Muslim American servicemen have died in those wars than the number of American servicemen killed by their Muslim comrades in the US military in various "workplace incidents".

    Replies: @AnotherDad

    Not a lot of them, since fewer Muslim American servicemen have died in those wars than the number of American servicemen killed by their Muslim comrades in the US military in various “workplace incidents”.

    How dare you besmirch the wonderful Khan family, those most heroic of Americans ever?

    Worse by attempting to point out that the contribution of Muslim American soldiers is actually a net negative and ergo casting racist aspersions on Mr. Khan’s patriotic business of waving in as many more Muslim immigrants (as come up with the money to pay him) as something less than being critical American enterprise upon which our values and security rest. Shame!

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @AnotherDad

    That's not who we are! Or were until last month.

  123. A lot of the old Italian American families in the Bay Area are filthy rich from just buying and holding real estate. The Italian preference for being near the water and for urban areas served them especially well.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Lot

    Historically Italians preferred living in fortified hill towns and NOT near the water. Living near the water was a good way to get kidnapped into slavery.

  124. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    “It was feared at the time that Fascists were trying to conquer the world. (One difference is that the Axis more or less was.)”

    Rotfl.

    The world was already conquered by capitalist imperialists, esp Brits and French.

    Also, Hitler had no designs on British or French empire. His interest was in the east. He didn’t even want to fight UK and France and was forced into it by their declaration of war on Germany.
    He wanted peaceful partnership with the Brits.

    Japan had no designs on any part of the world but Asia, much of which was conquered already by European imperialists, esp in Southeast Asia where only Thailand was independent. Japan’s attack on Pearl harbor wasn’t to conquer the US, not even Hawaii. It was to discourage American involvement in the Asian Pacific. Greatest miscalculation of all time surely.

    One thing for sure, the Japanese/fascist aggression on the US was NOTHING(in the extent of damage) when compared to the destruction that resulted from globalism engineered within the US by Jewish anti-whitites and preening virtue-signaling white elites, the insufferable snot-nosers.

    Germans, Italians, and Japanese had no plans to invade the US.

    But welcoming mass invasion in EU, US, and Canada is now the official policy of so-called ‘western values’ whose main purpose is to displace western races and cultures.
    It’d be like saying the core essence of Swedishness is to rid Sweden of its Swedish identity and heritage. Well, that is today’s Sweden.

    The sheer lunacy of ‘western values’ is well-expressed by Ian Buruma, someone I used to sort of respect. In his globo-imperialist mind, Merkel stands for ‘western values’.

    http://stuartschneiderman.blogspot.com/2016/11/the-end-of-anglo-american-world-order.html

  125. @David In TN
    @Buffalo Joe

    Alvin C. York also received both the Medal of Honor and the Distinguished Service Cross in World War I.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @eah

    • Replies: @David In TN
    @eah

    Alvin C. York was a staunch Democrat. In East Tennessee that put him in the minority. During the 1940-41 period, York actively campaigned for military preparedness and against the America First movement. The Gary Cooper movie came out at this time.

    A York biographer observed it was Alvin C. York against Charles Lindbergh.

  126. @Anon
    @Steve Sailer

    From "Ethnic Humor Around the World: A Comparative Analysis" by Christie Davies

    Quote:
    p. 191

    Ethnic jokes about "cowardly Italians" are largely a twentieth-century phenomenon and only really common after World War II. However, the comic image of the Italians as unwarlike is much older, as Roger Pinon has shown in his discussion of "the saying that "Itali sunt imbelles" - the Italians do not fight", meaning that when confronted at the battle they flee at the first opportunity" (1980, 76). Pinon has found references to Italian cowardice as far back as the medieval period, when French and Germans alike mocked the alleged lack of martial courage of the Lombards (see Pinon 1980, 76-79). The unwarlike reputation of the Italians only became securely established however, in the sixteenth century, when it was referred to by writers as diverse as Rabelais, Machiavelli, Erasmus and Montaigne. (27) For Machiavelli it was a political problem calling for a solution, for the others a source of amusement, a kind of ethnic joke.

    pp. 192-3

    The Italian states employed mercenaries on short-term contracts who developed no loyalty to or identification with the state that employed them. Macaulay, in his essay on Machiavelli, has summed up the problems that this created:

    "The richest and most enlightened part of the world was left undefended to the assaults of every barbarous invader, to the brutality of Switzerland, the insolence of France, and the fierce rapacity of Aragon. The moral effects which followed from this state of things were still more remarkable.

    Among the rude nations which lay beyond the Alps, valour was absolutely indispensable. Without it none could be eminent; few could be secure. Cowardice was, therefore, naturally considered as the foulest reproach. Among the polished Italians, enriched by commerce, governed by law, and passionately attached to literature, everything was done by superiority of intelligence. Their very wars, more pacific than the peace of their neighbors, required rather civil than military qualifications. Hence while courage was the point of honour in other countries, ingenuity became the point of honour in Italy...

    Military courage, the boast of the sottish German, of the frivolous and pratting Frenchman, of the romantic and arrogant Spaniard, he (the Italian ruler) neither possesses nor values. He shuns danger, not because he is insensible to shame, but because in the society in which he lives timidity has ceased to be shameful."

    Italians growing up in such a society develop a strong capacity for loyalty to the small group of people known to them personally but may well have a weak attachment to impersonal institutions such as the army or other bureaucratic institutions.

    p. 194

    No way has yet been found in which the strong loyalties that Italians owe to smaller groups can be harnessed by state organizations such as the army, and indeed these loyalties may contribute to an organization's disintegration into squabbling groups of rival patrons and clients. The result has been a nation whose members have shown themselves to be courageous and indeed sometimes brutal members of feuding kinsmen or small guerilla bands but not effective soldiers in a large army. As Peter Nichols (1973, 53) has put it, the Italians are "capable of marvellous feats of personal bravery but reject fighting as the pursuit of fools."

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Steve Sailer, @Grumpy

    …a strong capacity for loyalty to the small group of people known to them personally but may well have a weak attachment to impersonal institutions such as the army…

    I read this characterization and immediately thought of modern Minnesotans, who are very insular people. Despite its ingrained, widespread, and male-dominated outdoor culture of hunting, boating, snowmobiles, etc., Minnesota has a very low military enlistment rate.

    Enlistment by state: http://tinyurl.com/36u93l9

    The demographics of Minnesota changed enormously after 1861, when the young state sent thousands of volunteers to the Union Army.

  127. @fnn
    Leftist heroes FDR and Earl Warren (then Gov. of California) were the big backers of internment while J. Edgar Hoover was opposed. OTOH, Hoover enthusiastically participated in FDR's Brown Scare from its beginning in 1935. Hoover probably thought he knew enough about subversive and potentially subversive networks in the US -at least the non-Communist ones-that interment was superfluous.

    Replies: @Dan Hayes

    fnn:

    Thanks for the information. BTW, one of the few national politicians against internment was Bob Taft, the great conservative senator from Ohio (aka, Mr. Republican). And a very minor correction: Earl Warren led the call for internment when he was Attorney General of California.

  128. I wouldn’t mind scrubbing FDR off our money. He was an authoritarian fascist-wannabe who delayed our recovery from the Great Depression for years.

  129. @Steve Sailer
    @M_Young

    There was a pro-Japanese American movie from MGM at least as early as 1951, "Go For Broke," about the Fighting 442nd regiment that won so many medals in Europe:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_for_Broke!_(1951_film)

    It did fairly well at the box office and the screenplay got an Oscar nomination. I saw it on TV when I was a kid.

    Replies: @tamako, @Captain Tripps, @Buddwing

    A somewhat later film that was sympathetic to Japanese Americans was Hell to Eternity (1960) a true story about a white marine raised in LA by Japanese who were interned. He fought in Saipan and used his Japanese language to lure Japanese soldiers out of their redoubts to kill them. Ultimately, he is able to talk Japanese soldiers into surrender.

    You should remember the context here, however. The Korean War converted Japan from a conquered enemy into a needed ally in the Cold War. There was a need to promote a rapprochement between the US and Japan. People on both sides were urged to look beyond the Pearl Harbor/Bataan Death March/Kamikaze/Fire-bombing/Nuclear-Bombing dynamic and rebuild respect for each other. There was a lot of overt push to suppress bad feelings, but it does show up from time to time:

    General Jack D. Ripper:
    Mandrake, were you ever a prisoner of war?
    Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake:
    Well, yes I was Jack as a matter of fact I was.
    General Jack D. Ripper:
    Did they torture you?
    Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake:
    Yes Jack, I was tortured by the Japanese, if you must know, not a pretty story.
    General Jack D. Ripper:
    Well, what happened?
    Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake:
    Oh Well, I don’t know, Jack, difficult to think of under these conditions, but well, they got me on the old Ragoon-Ichinawa railway. I was laying train lines for the bloody Japanese puff-puff’s.
    General Jack D. Ripper:
    No, I mean when they tortured you did you talk?
    Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake:
    Ah, oh, no, I don’t think they wanted me to talk really, I don’t think they wanted me to say anything. It was just their way of having a bit of fun the swines. Strange thing is they make such bloody good cameras.

  130. Japanese Americans are a lot more Left Wing than the Japs in Japan.

    If true, no need to worry; the Japs can trot out all the Jews’ excuses. #1: it’s YT’s fault: Japs in America vote for the left in far greater numbers than Japs in Japan or Whites in America, because they’re so assimilated! #2: it’s YT’s fault: look what Whites did to Japs during WWII! It’s not as if there’s a Japanese country, with a Japanese majority, run for and by Japanese, where they can escape YT’s predations; they’re trapped here! #3: Japs have no agency. Despite making more money and being more educated than the White majority, Japs have no control over their actions (when the actions are being subjected to criticism, anyway; all positive Japanese achievements are still 100% their own doing). Et cetera.

    whorefinder says:
    December 1, 2016 at 8:08 am GMT • 500 Words

    Bay is also extremely patriotic, in a diversity- and black-worshipping kind of way. He (inter alia, I’m sure) produced The Last Ship, which is easily the most ra-ra US Military show I’ve ever seen. I’ve hated his work since the 90’s for being gimmicky, bombastic, lower-brow-than-it-has-to-be schlock, but he’s long been patriotic, in his fashion.

    The Last Ship was the first mass media entertainment I’ve ever seen featuring an officially Jewish gal chasing a black guy.

    Oh, and The Rock sucked.

    But they conquered significant territory outside their historic borders.

    Isn’t that true of at least one side in every war not called “civil”?

    Anon: right. Italy (and Greece) were the richest parts of Europe for a thousand years and more, after the fall of Rome. Bravery is a poor man’s game.

    The lack of unity among Italians within Italy might explain some of their less-than-stellar battlefield reputation since reunification: they are more of a coalition of cranky factions who don’t really like each other rather than a unified front.

    Wealth probably explains Italian lack of nationalism/national unity, too. Princes of Italian city-states were long wealthier than most of the kings of Europe.

    Many years ago I saw an NHK documentary on the Japanese Americans during the war. Perhaps because it was a Japanese production, several of the older ones let down their guard and said they hoped, 日本 が 勝てば いい.japan would win.

    Not an entirely unpatriotic (American) position: at least in hindsight, Americans winning decisively enough to invade the Japanese mainland was a lot more likely than the reverse. Put another way: as divided loyalties go, this one seems fairly reasonable.

  131. @Steve Sailer
    @whorefinder

    It should be doable to plot movies by how long ago they are set.

    Replies: @Buddwing, @Stationary Feast

    I once plotted the Rolling Stone greatest albums of all time by age. I called the result “the nostalgia curve.”

    I believe that 40 year old decision makers in Hollywood are interested in 1) today 2) when they were teenagers (20-25 years back) 3) when their parents got together and brought them into the world (40-50 years back) 4) exactly 100 years ago.

  132. @eD
    My American born grandmother, my one grandparent born in the US, married an Italian. There is some doubtless garbled story in her family about how she was given a hard time trying to vote in World War II, on the grounds that marrying my grandfather meant she had given up her citizenship.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Jack D

    Apparently this was the law at the time – the same thing happened to my wife’s grandmother. She was American born but my wife’s grandfather had come here as teen and was not yet a citizen when they married. To show you how far we have gone, at that time (I assume this was part of the Immigration Act of 1924 though I’m not sure), if an American born (woman?) married a non-citizen, she would lose her citizenship too and would have to reapply to get it back if/when her spouse became eligible. I’m guessing that this was in part to prevent “green card marriages” and chain migration. But that was in the old racist, sexist horrible days when we did things like win world wars in 3.5 years.

  133. @Lot
    A lot of the old Italian American families in the Bay Area are filthy rich from just buying and holding real estate. The Italian preference for being near the water and for urban areas served them especially well.

    Replies: @Jack D

    Historically Italians preferred living in fortified hill towns and NOT near the water. Living near the water was a good way to get kidnapped into slavery.

  134. OT –

    Another Trump Hate Hoaxer revealed

    http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/real-time/S-Jersey-man-arrested-in-post-election-vandalism-in-South-Philly.html

    Meanwhile the Mayor of Philadelphia downplays one his city’s lawyers involved in Anti-Trump Vandalism, calling it “a dumb mistake”. One wonders if the mayor would be as charitable if the perpetrator was a Republican

    http://www.philly.com/philly/news/politics/20161201_City_attorney_identified_in_anti-Trump_vandalism.html

    And finally – More Swastikas at Swarthmore! In a transgender bathroom, no less!

    http://swarthmorephoenix.com/2016/12/01/more-swastikas-appear-in-mccabe-library/

    I doubt there is anyone at Swathmore (student or faculty) who is to the Right of Jill Stein.

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    @Milo Minderbinder

    In the early 90s, the "Kremlin on the Crum" had a Conservative Union started by a pentecostal Christian student. Also, before they got rid of the football team, there were some knuckleheads who basically kept a low profile. Swarthmore is a liberal arts school with an engineering major, so there's that element too. However, I've never heard of anyone there who fit in at AmRen or on this blog.

  135. @tamako
    @Steve Sailer

    I'm for a WW2 film depicting a battle America losing valiantly. Something along the lines of a depiction of the Battle for Bataan from start to finish should do for this.

    Replies: @David In TN, @Hubbub

    The 1942 film “Wake Island” was fairly accurate, except for implying the Americans fought to the last man. They did surrender at the end. It showed Americans fighting valiantly against impossible odds. And there was also “Bataan,” starring Robert Taylor.

    Both of those were war propaganda, more or less. The Bataan film was small unit action, which the movies have always preferred.

  136. @AnotherDad
    @Romanian


    Not a lot of them, since fewer Muslim American servicemen have died in those wars than the number of American servicemen killed by their Muslim comrades in the US military in various “workplace incidents”.
     
    How dare you besmirch the wonderful Khan family, those most heroic of Americans ever?

    Worse by attempting to point out that the contribution of Muslim American soldiers is actually a net negative and ergo casting racist aspersions on Mr. Khan's patriotic business of waving in as many more Muslim immigrants (as come up with the money to pay him) as something less than being critical American enterprise upon which our values and security rest. Shame!

    Replies: @Jack D

    That’s not who we are! Or were until last month.

  137. So Steve, not only is noticing things a thought crime, so is remembering things!

  138. I have little sympathy for the Japanese. Like all east Asians, they run their economy and nation FUBU. They didn’t allow in enough foreigners to round up and intern in numbers.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Svigor

    "They didn’t allow in enough foreigners to round up and intern in numbers."

    Japan did bring in forced-laborers during WWII.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Japan#World_War_II

    With PC spreading in East Asia, it might go the way of Europe.

    "I have little sympathy for the Japanese. Like all east Asians, they run their economy and nation FUBU."

    But shouldn't that be the model of the white west?

  139. @SPMoore8
    @Marcus

    I'm well aware of Britain's leadership in the development of internment/concentration camps, but they are rarely discussed. Of course, since any kind of concentration camp pre-Stalin/Hitler can be described as "pre" Holocaust/GULAG, there's always an effort to find such seeds in prior camp-life arrangements, and that extends (IIRC) well before the notorious Boer War camps the Brits established, and in which a large percentage of internees (old men, women, and children) died in epidemics. For example, I think there were such things in Cuba before the Spanish American War, as well, but I'm sure I've read descriptions that predate that by a long period of time.

    Replies: @Desiderius

    well before the notorious Boer War camps the Brits established, and in which a large percentage of internees (old men, women, and children) died in epidemics

    Andersonville predates the Boer War by nearly 40 years.

    • Agree: SPMoore8
    • Replies: @utu
    @Desiderius

    In Civil War only 1/3 of 600,000 casualties died on the battlefield. The rest died of wounds, disease and malnutrition. Many of them as POW's.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Spork

  140. • Replies: @eah
    @eah

    stupider

    https://twitter.com/LanaLokteff/status/804045093191745536

  141. @Gabriel M

    (One difference is that the Axis more or less was.)
     
    This is not true. The Nazis and, still more so, the Japanese, were in the grip of some seriously evil madness, but they were neither individually, nor in concert, trying to conquer the world. There was only one country involved in WW2 who was trying to conquer the world and, not coincidentally, it was the country that actually did.

    Replies: @bomag, @Hibernian, @Bill Jones, @snorlax, @Sam Haysom, @Anonymous, @neon2

    This is the kind of crap that makes some portions of the alt-right so worth ignoring.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @Sam Haysom


    This is the kind of crap that makes some portions of the alt-right so worth ignoring
     
    If you can't find portions of any political movement worth ignoring you're not paying attention.
    , @Gabriel M
    @Sam Haysom


    This is the kind of crap that makes some portions of the alt-right so worth ignoring.
     
    I'm not alt-right and though I'm not one of the more frequent commentators here, I'm probably one of the more frequent pro-Jew/Zionism ones. My point was really a pretty standard Moldbuggian (i.e. not alt-right at all) one and really quite obvious. Nazi Germany was evil and Imperial Japan was practically evil incarnate, but neither had any plans of world conquest. There are only two ideologies in the modern era who have had the outlandish goal of world conquest and both have been (and remain) entirely open about this goal: Democracy/Liberalism and Communism (as Snorlax correctly points out). The constant references made by partisans of these ideologies to other people wanting to conquer the world are obvious cases of projection.

    That doesn't make America worse than Nazi Germany though. There are a hell of a lot worse things than wanting to conquer the world, like Babi Yar.



    Svigor

    If true, no need to worry; the Japs can trot out all the Jews’ excuses. #1: it’s YT’s fault: Japs in America vote for the left in far greater numbers than Japs in Japan or Whites in America, because they’re so assimilated! #2: it’s YT’s fault: look what Whites did to Japs during WWII! It’s not as if there’s a Japanese country, with a Japanese majority, run for and by Japanese, where they can escape YT’s predations; they’re trapped here! #3: Japs have no agency. Despite making more money and being more educated than the White majority, Japs have no control over their actions (when the actions are being subjected to criticism, anyway; all positive Japanese achievements are still 100% their own doing).
     
    Has it occurred to you that if the Japanese, the Jews and pretty much every minority acts in the same way then the fundamental problem might have something to do with the nature of Democracy and not the nature of the Japanese/Jews/everyone?

    Replies: @dfordoom

  142. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Captain Tripps
    @Steve Sailer

    I believe the late Pat Morita's character Mr. Kesuke Miyagi in the "Karate Kid" franchise was a 442nd Regimental Combat Team (RCT) Medal of Honor recipient whose backstory was that he lost his wife and son (during childbirth) in an internment camp. The real Pat Morita actually did spend a year and a half in an internment camp as an adolescent.

    P.S.: The late Senator Daniel Inouye was a MOH recipient of the 442nd.

    Replies: @Anon

    Inouye was an uncle tom traitor.

    Imagine you are living as a gringo minority in Mexico. Suppose there is war between US and Mexico, and suppose Mexico dispossesses all gringos and throws your family into internment camp.

    Would you fight for Mexico? Only a worthless uncle tom gringo would.

    These yellows are uncle tom dogs. They fought, killed, and died for the very government that had the lowest opinion of their kind.

  143. @Sam Haysom
    @Gabriel M

    This is the kind of crap that makes some portions of the alt-right so worth ignoring.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Gabriel M

    This is the kind of crap that makes some portions of the alt-right so worth ignoring

    If you can’t find portions of any political movement worth ignoring you’re not paying attention.

  144. @Anonymous
    Folks here clearly see the internment as justified "punishment" for the "other."

    Misses the point. The criticism was that it was directed against Japanese AMERICANS. Now Sailer and most of the commenters may not regard them as Americans, but legally they were. So you're justifying punitive measures against Americans because elsewhere, aliens were fighting other Americans.

    You further confuse the issue by bringing up measures against Italian ALIENS.

    And then the coup de grace... bringing up Tule Lake, the camp that was set up for the most hard core Japanese militarists, most of whom were either immigrants (so could not naturalize) or had spent virtually all their lives in Japan - and using that as an exemplar of all Nissei.

    The Japanese AMERICANS were in a no-win situation. The Army considered the fact that there had been no incidents of sabotage as proof that there was a larger sleeper section of saboteurs in the population. How do you argue with logic like that?

    Also revealing: if any locale was vulnerable, it was Hawaii. Yet the Nissei were far more critical to the local economy there than on the West Coast, so there was no internment, no destruction of businesses, homes, families, farms.

    But... it was ok to do all that because Pearl Harbor. Yeah, we rounded up tens of thousands and destroyed their livelihoods because they were of the same "racial stock" (as Korematsu put it) as the enemy. But that's fine because once in them they were paid the same as US Army privates. And people who looked like them were doing horrific things across the Pacific.

    Funny thing too about the people who did the horrific things - unlike Nuremberg, almost none of them got punished. The Commander of Unit 731 - google it if you want to lose your lunch - went on to head a pharmaceutical company and even became chair of the Japanese Medical Association.

    Replies: @Seth Largo, @Spork

    1/3 of the interred Japanese were not citizens. As far as I can make out from La Wik’s sources, only 1/10 of the interred Germans were not citizens.

    The 1940s saw massive forced movements of many populations in Europe and the Americas. If we set the forced movement of Jews into German death camps as the most brutal, then the interment of Japs, Krauts, and Wops in America would be at the opposite end. Somewhere in the middle would be the forced expulsions of ethnic Germans across Europe after the war. However, most Latin American countries also rounded up Japs, Krauts, and Wops, and I imagine a Colombian interment camp would have sucked way worse than living in the Eastern Sierras.

    At any rate, this is one of those times in history where there’s plenty of blame to go around. So it’s telling when progressives rend their garments over Japanese interment but shed no ink for the white folks it happened to.

  145. @Svigor
    I have little sympathy for the Japanese. Like all east Asians, they run their economy and nation FUBU. They didn't allow in enough foreigners to round up and intern in numbers.

    Replies: @Anon

    “They didn’t allow in enough foreigners to round up and intern in numbers.”

    Japan did bring in forced-laborers during WWII.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Japan#World_War_II

    With PC spreading in East Asia, it might go the way of Europe.

    “I have little sympathy for the Japanese. Like all east Asians, they run their economy and nation FUBU.”

    But shouldn’t that be the model of the white west?

  146. @Steve Sailer
    @Olorin

    Tule Lake is where the hardcore Imperial loyalists were sent. They caused a lot of trouble there, but on the other hand they weren't surreptitious about their loyalties, just as RAF fliers in POW camps caused no end of trouble for their German captors.

    I suspect that the Imperial intelligence services would have been happier if more Japanese in America had been two-faced, but there aren't many examples of that.

    In general, the Japanese militarist ideology of the age wasn't good at inculcating the slippery traits. That ideology encouraged lots of kinds of bad behavior, but not hypocrisy and deceit. The 1940s Japanese tended to be very in your face. The samurai ideology encouraged arrogance, aggression, and national egotism, but was not conducive to covert action since the national mood was so overt.

    Replies: @Foreign Expert, @Spork

    Ninjas, although lauded by foreigners, were traditionally regarded as dishonorable in Japanese society, since they specialized in assassinations, espionage and other underhanded forms of warfare. They were contrasted with the honorable samurai, who weren’t supposed to engage in such practices. (IIRC, one of the most famous ninja operations in Japanese history involved the assassin dressing as a woman to get past the target’s security guards. No samurai would do something like that.)

  147. @Steve Sailer
    @Bacon Eater

    This huge Native Hawaiian eventually killed the armed Japanese pilot who had taken control of the island -- with his bare hands.

    Replies: @bored identity

    Steve, I’m really confused:

    Did Maui kill flying Godzilla with his humangous shovels, or the Jap Zeronaut took control over Niihau with his tiny yellow bare hands?

  148. @Sam Haysom
    @Gabriel M

    This is the kind of crap that makes some portions of the alt-right so worth ignoring.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Gabriel M

    This is the kind of crap that makes some portions of the alt-right so worth ignoring.

    I’m not alt-right and though I’m not one of the more frequent commentators here, I’m probably one of the more frequent pro-Jew/Zionism ones. My point was really a pretty standard Moldbuggian (i.e. not alt-right at all) one and really quite obvious. Nazi Germany was evil and Imperial Japan was practically evil incarnate, but neither had any plans of world conquest. There are only two ideologies in the modern era who have had the outlandish goal of world conquest and both have been (and remain) entirely open about this goal: Democracy/Liberalism and Communism (as Snorlax correctly points out). The constant references made by partisans of these ideologies to other people wanting to conquer the world are obvious cases of projection.

    That doesn’t make America worse than Nazi Germany though. There are a hell of a lot worse things than wanting to conquer the world, like Babi Yar.

    Svigor

    If true, no need to worry; the Japs can trot out all the Jews’ excuses. #1: it’s YT’s fault: Japs in America vote for the left in far greater numbers than Japs in Japan or Whites in America, because they’re so assimilated! #2: it’s YT’s fault: look what Whites did to Japs during WWII! It’s not as if there’s a Japanese country, with a Japanese majority, run for and by Japanese, where they can escape YT’s predations; they’re trapped here! #3: Japs have no agency. Despite making more money and being more educated than the White majority, Japs have no control over their actions (when the actions are being subjected to criticism, anyway; all positive Japanese achievements are still 100% their own doing).

    Has it occurred to you that if the Japanese, the Jews and pretty much every minority acts in the same way then the fundamental problem might have something to do with the nature of Democracy and not the nature of the Japanese/Jews/everyone?

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Gabriel M


    Nazi Germany was evil and Imperial Japan was practically evil incarnate, but neither had any plans of world conquest. There are only two ideologies in the modern era who have had the outlandish goal of world conquest and both have been (and remain) entirely open about this goal: Democracy/Liberalism and Communism (as Snorlax correctly points out). The constant references made by partisans of these ideologies to other people wanting to conquer the world are obvious cases of projection.
     
    Agreed.
  149. @SPMoore8
    Bearing in mind that the post was about the treatment of Italian nationals in WW2, all I can say is that I've been aware of it for a long time, and that German relations in my family were also harassed in both world wars on the west coast. And non-German relations got a lot of negative feedback for defending them.

    Wars breed hysteria and hysteria breeds mob violence. It's nothing to be proud of, people shouldn't make excuses for it, and the internment of the Japanese was (objectively) unnecessary, since there was no effort made to intern them in Hawaii (because they were too numerous).

    On the other hand, as someone has already noted, there was a lot of hostility towards Japanese after Pearl Harbor (and even before, to be honest), who mostly were in gardening and truck gardening work, as I have heard. Segregating the Japanese was a good way to ensure we didn't have lynchings on the West Coast, which was a real possibility, given the blatantly public and endorsed by the California governor lynching of the two white guys who killed Brooke Hart (Jewish son of a store owner) in 1936 in a public park in San Jose.

    In that sense, the bad part about the internment is that a lot of Japanese lost their property, either outright or at a loss, which was unjust and that is why the recompense that came under Reagan was only fair. As the focus of this blog post shows, the Italians (and probably Germans as well) suffered similar financial losses.

    During WW1 the hysteria was particularly bad towards Germans, and I was surprised to find some years ago that sometimes Jewish Germans were caught up in that net, based on some old articles from midwest newspapers I was reading.

    The love affair we engaged in with Italians and Japanese postwar probably had a lot to do with war brides plus the fact that most of the American action (in both senses of the word) took place in Italy, where sizable Americans were stationed for nearly three years. (In contrast, the Americans were only in Northern Europe from June 44 to May 45; and there was a clamor to bring them home ASAP after that.)

    I think overall the Japanese internment was a mistake (NB: It was only on the coastal areas, not everywhere, compare Hayakawa's career (he was a Canuck anyway, IIRC)) but as described I think I can understand why it was done. Nevertheless it's a useful tonic to those who think this kind of itemization and segregation of large groups of people, accompanied by some rather rabid group hatred, could only happen under Euro dictatorships (Germany, Russia) but could never happen in our democracy. Of course, the fact that we didn't kill our prisoners after interning them is very much to our credit.

    I'm surprised there is zero sympathy for either Germans or Italians expressed here, the lack of sympathy for Japanese not so much.

    As for the the future, Michelle Malkin (Filipina born in US) wrote a book defending the Japanese internment and also floated the idea for Muslims. Clearly we have to do something about Muslim immigration but the fact that we as a nation did not flip out after 9/11 is to Bush's credit, it might be the only thing he got right in his presidency.

    Replies: @Marcus, @CAL, @Anonymous Rice Alum 4

    During WW1 the hysteria was particularly bad towards Germans, and I was surprised to find some years ago that sometimes Jewish Germans were caught up in that net, based on some old articles from midwest newspapers I was reading.

    Many interpretations of WW2 make it seem that anti-Semitism was a strong and deep strain of German society before Hitler. In reality, anti-Semitism in Germany in WW1 was similar in degree and kind to that in France, the UK, and the US. (Factoid: outside of Israel, there are two cemeteries for Jewish war dead. One is in Berlin for Jewish German WW1 dead. (The other is in Richmond, VA for Jewish Confederate dead)). Many Jewish Germans of the WW1 era considered themselves culturally German and superior to eastern European Jews. (Look at Steve’s posts about Jews and country clubs for an example). So it shouldn’t be a surprise that during WW1 Jewish German-Americans fell victim to the same hysteria as gentile German-Americans.

    • Agree: SPMoore8
  150. This is the kind of crap that makes some portions of the alt-right so worth ignoring.

    Pretty sure Gabe’s an ardent Zionist Jew. You going to ignore them now, too?

  151. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Jefferson
    "It doesn’t fit into modern categories so it’s forgotten"

    That's because we Italians do not belong to the coalition of the fringes, but the Japanese certainly do. The Japs vote in a monolithic bloc for The Democratic Party. Has anybody here ever met a Jap Republican?

    Japanese Americans are a lot more Left Wing than the Japs in Japan.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Milo Minderbinder, @snorlax, @Anonymous, @Sam Lawrence

    The Japanese affiliation with the Democratic Party predates the contemporary left-wing and “coalition of the fringes” Democratic Party. They were affiliated with the Dems back when the South voted as a bloc for the Dems, and back when “liberal Republicans” were a major component of the GOP and when the GOP was more liberal in some respects than the Dems.

  152. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Gabriel M

    (One difference is that the Axis more or less was.)
     
    This is not true. The Nazis and, still more so, the Japanese, were in the grip of some seriously evil madness, but they were neither individually, nor in concert, trying to conquer the world. There was only one country involved in WW2 who was trying to conquer the world and, not coincidentally, it was the country that actually did.

    Replies: @bomag, @Hibernian, @Bill Jones, @snorlax, @Sam Haysom, @Anonymous, @neon2

    If Germany was able to prevail in Europe, Japan was somehow capable of landing troops in California, and both countries were blockading America, what would have happened to all those Japanese in the internment camps? The American government identified and quarantined racial-political hostiles as the Germans and other nations did during the war.

    Sure, they were treated fine when the war was thousands of miles away and America was exporting food, but if push came to shove, if Americans were starving and blockaded, if domestic bases had to be abandoned in the face of an enemy offensive, the Japanese-Americans would probably have been slowly starved out and/or exterminated lest they serve as assets to their captors, similar to what happened in occupied Europe in the later years of the war.

  153. @Milo Minderbinder
    OT -

    Another Trump Hate Hoaxer revealed

    http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/real-time/S-Jersey-man-arrested-in-post-election-vandalism-in-South-Philly.html

    Meanwhile the Mayor of Philadelphia downplays one his city's lawyers involved in Anti-Trump Vandalism, calling it "a dumb mistake". One wonders if the mayor would be as charitable if the perpetrator was a Republican

    http://www.philly.com/philly/news/politics/20161201_City_attorney_identified_in_anti-Trump_vandalism.html

    And finally - More Swastikas at Swarthmore! In a transgender bathroom, no less!

    http://swarthmorephoenix.com/2016/12/01/more-swastikas-appear-in-mccabe-library/

    I doubt there is anyone at Swathmore (student or faculty) who is to the Right of Jill Stein.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

    In the early 90s, the “Kremlin on the Crum” had a Conservative Union started by a pentecostal Christian student. Also, before they got rid of the football team, there were some knuckleheads who basically kept a low profile. Swarthmore is a liberal arts school with an engineering major, so there’s that element too. However, I’ve never heard of anyone there who fit in at AmRen or on this blog.

  154. @M_Young
    @gcochran

    Well, yes. Japanese were horrible to surrendered prisoners. Which makes it all the more incredible that in 1970 Americans and Japanese can make a movie like Tora Tora Tora. The men who fought in the Pacific then must have had an average age of about 50, yet didn't go screaming about being 'triggered' by the film.

    Replies: @utu

    “Well, yes. Japanese were horrible to surrendered prisoners.” – But still they were taking the prisoners unlike Americans who had to be given incentives like ice cream and three days leave for bringing a LIVE Japanese POW. Soviets took 600,000 Japanese POW’s while Americans only 35,000 which is not surprising at 100:1 kill-to-prisoner ratio in late 1944 that improved to 7:1 in mid 1945 presumably with the ice cream incentive.

    • Agree: jacques sheete
    • Replies: @Boomstick
    @utu

    ...Or the US troops needed to be ice cream incentives because taking the Japanese prisoner was so hazardous.

    By the battle of Okinowa in mid-1945 more prisoners were taken because some of defenders were recently conscripted Okinowans, who turned out to not be as eager to die for the emperor.

    The Japanese would often suicide charge once the battle was lost, and otherwise attempt to take an American's life before dying themselves.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    , @Anonymous
    @utu

    It's my understanding that a contributing factor to this mentality was a few early incidents of IJA soldiers appearing to surrender to US troops, only to produce a hidden grenade to kill both themselves and their would-be captors (or something of that nature). If true, I can understand the development of a "better safe than sorry" mentality among the hard-nosed Jarheads.

    Replies: @David In TN

  155. @eah
    OT

    Both Ann Coulter and Mickey Kaus are pushing for Trump to stay hardline on immigration -- along with economic populism/nationalism, it's a big reason he won the election -- after his nomination of Haley to the UN, people are rightly concerned -- also, programs for refugees are administered by the Executive Branch -- Trump should act as forcefully as possible there too.

    https://twitter.com/AnnCoulter/status/804229054182424576

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Chrisnonymous

    I doubt very much that Trump pays attention to either of them. I hope he stays true on immigration, but I wouldn’t be surprised if doesn’t.

    Trump is was big gamble, but there was no other choice. In the early stages of the election, many people on this blog admitted as much and the situation hasn’t changed.

  156. @Desiderius
    @SPMoore8


    well before the notorious Boer War camps the Brits established, and in which a large percentage of internees (old men, women, and children) died in epidemics
     
    Andersonville predates the Boer War by nearly 40 years.

    Replies: @utu

    In Civil War only 1/3 of 600,000 casualties died on the battlefield. The rest died of wounds, disease and malnutrition. Many of them as POW’s.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @utu


    In Civil War only 1/3 of 600,000 casualties died on the battlefield. The rest died of wounds, disease and malnutrition. Many of them as POW’s.
     
    Nor was the Civil War likely exceptional in that regard, which is why Florence Nightingale was such an eminent Victorian that she shriveled Lytton Strachey's balls over the span of half a century.
    , @Spork
    @utu

    If you want to take this back even further there were the British prison hulks of the Revolutionary war.

  157. @Seth Largo
    About 10,000 Germans were interred as well. The de-Germanification of the Midwest during and between the wars is a story yet to be told in detail. Many places today remain 90% German but no one speaks the language, no omas cook old world meals, and their Oktoberfests suck.

    Of course, the de-Germanification was self-enforced to a great extent (though one old timer I've spoken to remembers cross burnings in front of his Lutheran church).

    The original founders were nationalists, and the first 50 years of the republic can be viewed as an ethnic nation state. It wasn't until the 19th and early 20th centuries, during the large-scale migration and eventual assimilation of continental Europeans, that our new national sense of self evolved: nation of immigrants and all that.

    Which is true, but only half the story. The other half, oft repeated by David Goldman (aka Spengler), is that the immigrants' price of admission was to give up their old world identities and forge new American ones grounded in commerce and a Protestant work ethic. As Brad Pitt says in Killing Them Softly: "America is not a country. It's a business. Now give me my f---ing money."

    That's the "nation of immigrants" that I feel most nostalgic about and continue to connect with on a personal level: the nation of people who recognized that their old countries sucked and that America offered a place to start again.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

    BD, The Pacific Theatre of Operations was the largest battlefield in world history. The Japanese landed troops on the Aleutian Islands so there is a chance that they could have landed assault forces in the Canadian Northwest and fought their way south to the state of Washington. The Japanese troops carried minimal supplies and scavenged and foraged as they went. During the Civil War Robert E.Lee’s thrust northward, that ended with the Battle of Gettysburg, was actually part of a plan to hit Harrisburg, Pa and make the civilian population of the North demand a cessation to the fighting.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @Buffalo Joe

    Black Death, This reply, posted to Seth's comment was meant for you. Don't know how I screwed this up.

  158. @SFG
    @M_Young

    We won so ridiculously there was no point in their continuing hostilities. After Hiroshima and Nagasaki they quite reasonably figured they had no chance.

    There's still resentment, but at this point they're more afraid of China...which has a lot more to be bitter about than a sneak attack leading up to a war. Remember the Rape of Nanking?

    Replies: @OFWHAP

    China has more of a grudge to hold against its Communist overlords. They spent more time undermining the KMT war effort than fighting the Japanese. Chairman Mao was eternally grateful to the Japanese for softening up Chiang Kai Shek and the KMT. Furthermore Stalin used the Chinese as a buffer to prevent an invasion against the USSR.

  159. @Milo Minderbinder
    @Jefferson

    Has anybody here ever met a Jap Republican?

    Well, there was this guy.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S._I._Hayakawa

    Replies: @stillCARealist, @Reg Cæsar

    Hayakawa was a Canadian immigrant. He scoffed at the reparations trough, which brought the criticism that his family wasn’t interned so he wouldn’t qualify anyway.

    I liked his comment about the Canal: “We stole it fair and square!” Jeff Greenfield worked for his opponent Alan Cranston’s campaign, and was quite impressed at Hayakawa’s tactical skill in political warfare.

  160. @David In TN
    @Steve Sailer

    In a book I read many years ago about the air war in North Africa circa 1941-42, the consensus was the Italian fighter pilots were better from the flying point of view than their German allies and their British enemies.

    The Italian fighter pilots treated air combat like a medieval joust while the Germans had aggressive expert/leaders out to shoot down Allied planes and run up high victory totals.

    Replies: @Spork

    Speed costs fuel which Italy was always critically short of. Italian warplanes were optimized for manoverability rather than speed because of this. This was in contrast to the “boom and zoom” tactics of other airforces which emphasized speed over manoverability.

  161. I suspect it’s only a matter of years until FDR is banished from the dime the way Andrew Jackson is getting removed from the $20 bill.

    Upstate New York and rural New England will finally be vindicated!

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @Reg Cæsar


    Upstate New York and rural New England will finally be vindicated!
     
    Looks like Trump really is the second coming of FDR.

    I'm still hoping for William of Orange, or at least George Hanover.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

  162. The funny thing is that by the end of the war, America was entering a long love affair with most things Italian that went on and on…

    I’ve said before here that the words to “That’s Amore” (1953) were by Irish-American Johnny Burke, but it turns out that’s wrong. They’re by Liverpool-born Jack Brooks.

    However, the tune is by full-blooded Calabrian Harry Warren.

  163. @Anonymous
    Folks here clearly see the internment as justified "punishment" for the "other."

    Misses the point. The criticism was that it was directed against Japanese AMERICANS. Now Sailer and most of the commenters may not regard them as Americans, but legally they were. So you're justifying punitive measures against Americans because elsewhere, aliens were fighting other Americans.

    You further confuse the issue by bringing up measures against Italian ALIENS.

    And then the coup de grace... bringing up Tule Lake, the camp that was set up for the most hard core Japanese militarists, most of whom were either immigrants (so could not naturalize) or had spent virtually all their lives in Japan - and using that as an exemplar of all Nissei.

    The Japanese AMERICANS were in a no-win situation. The Army considered the fact that there had been no incidents of sabotage as proof that there was a larger sleeper section of saboteurs in the population. How do you argue with logic like that?

    Also revealing: if any locale was vulnerable, it was Hawaii. Yet the Nissei were far more critical to the local economy there than on the West Coast, so there was no internment, no destruction of businesses, homes, families, farms.

    But... it was ok to do all that because Pearl Harbor. Yeah, we rounded up tens of thousands and destroyed their livelihoods because they were of the same "racial stock" (as Korematsu put it) as the enemy. But that's fine because once in them they were paid the same as US Army privates. And people who looked like them were doing horrific things across the Pacific.

    Funny thing too about the people who did the horrific things - unlike Nuremberg, almost none of them got punished. The Commander of Unit 731 - google it if you want to lose your lunch - went on to head a pharmaceutical company and even became chair of the Japanese Medical Association.

    Replies: @Seth Largo, @Spork

    The likely reason that Japanese in Hawaii weren’t interned was that for the duration of the war the islands were swarming with soldiers and sailors, which made acts of sabotage or rebellion by civilians futile. The Japanese in Hawaii weren’t put in camps because the islands themselves were effectively a giant camp.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Spork

    Hawaii was ruled by martial law for several years after Pearl Harbor, while California was not. Imposing martial law on the entire civilian population of Hawaii was a huge civil liberties black eye that is forgotten today because it didn't discriminate.

  164. @Spork
    @Anonymous

    The likely reason that Japanese in Hawaii weren't interned was that for the duration of the war the islands were swarming with soldiers and sailors, which made acts of sabotage or rebellion by civilians futile. The Japanese in Hawaii weren't put in camps because the islands themselves were effectively a giant camp.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Hawaii was ruled by martial law for several years after Pearl Harbor, while California was not. Imposing martial law on the entire civilian population of Hawaii was a huge civil liberties black eye that is forgotten today because it didn’t discriminate.

  165. Rommel had high praise for Italian troops. Italian leadership, not so much.

    As for the Japanese, I had a friend who was a VN vet, and he gave me hell for owning a Mitsubishi cause they used GI slave labor.

  166. @Buffalo Joe
    @Seth Largo

    BD, The Pacific Theatre of Operations was the largest battlefield in world history. The Japanese landed troops on the Aleutian Islands so there is a chance that they could have landed assault forces in the Canadian Northwest and fought their way south to the state of Washington. The Japanese troops carried minimal supplies and scavenged and foraged as they went. During the Civil War Robert E.Lee's thrust northward, that ended with the Battle of Gettysburg, was actually part of a plan to hit Harrisburg, Pa and make the civilian population of the North demand a cessation to the fighting.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

    Black Death, This reply, posted to Seth’s comment was meant for you. Don’t know how I screwed this up.

  167. @utu
    @Desiderius

    In Civil War only 1/3 of 600,000 casualties died on the battlefield. The rest died of wounds, disease and malnutrition. Many of them as POW's.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Spork

    In Civil War only 1/3 of 600,000 casualties died on the battlefield. The rest died of wounds, disease and malnutrition. Many of them as POW’s.

    Nor was the Civil War likely exceptional in that regard, which is why Florence Nightingale was such an eminent Victorian that she shriveled Lytton Strachey’s balls over the span of half a century.

  168. @Reg Cæsar

    I suspect it’s only a matter of years until FDR is banished from the dime the way Andrew Jackson is getting removed from the $20 bill.
     
    Upstate New York and rural New England will finally be vindicated!

    Replies: @Desiderius

    Upstate New York and rural New England will finally be vindicated!

    Looks like Trump really is the second coming of FDR.

    I’m still hoping for William of Orange, or at least George Hanover.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Desiderius

    Trump and FDR both lost their own part of the state, badly-- and to out-of-staters-- but won the other. I'll give you that.

    Trump carried over 45 of the state's 62 counties. FDR was lucky to get ten.

    Replies: @Desiderius

  169. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    My Italian great-grandmother was designated an enemy alien, which humiliation involved carrying around a special ID and checking in once a month. She’d been in the US for thirty years when WW2 broke out and hadn’t bothered to get her citizenship yet.

    She used to take food and clothes to Italian POWs at Camp Perry, Ohio, at the same time her own kid’s ship was getting blown out of the water in the Mediterranean.

    • Replies: @Tracy
    @Anon

    I have the same sort of story, kinda. My Grandfather was very worried about getting interned -- even as his son, my Pops, was fighting the Japanese in the SWPA -- and came thiiiiiiiis close to not making it out. He was an engineer-tail gunner on B-24s and, during one mission, the crew in front were trying to contact him, got no response, and checked on him only to find a huge hole in the plane right next to where his head was. Blew out the communications system and all that. But my family never bitched about any of it. Seems that Italians just aren't big whiners.

    It's kind of funny how Italians are portrayed in the media: either were "connected" sociopaths -- or sort of "clownish": "eh, we sing-a, we eat-a, we like-a the vino and la familigia -- fuggetaboutit!"

  170. @utu
    @Desiderius

    In Civil War only 1/3 of 600,000 casualties died on the battlefield. The rest died of wounds, disease and malnutrition. Many of them as POW's.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Spork

    If you want to take this back even further there were the British prison hulks of the Revolutionary war.

  171. @tamako
    @Steve Sailer

    I'm for a WW2 film depicting a battle America losing valiantly. Something along the lines of a depiction of the Battle for Bataan from start to finish should do for this.

    Replies: @David In TN, @Hubbub

    I recently saw an Italian wartime film (1941) Benghazi in which the Italian army arrives just in time to save the town from destruction by the enemy (Allied Army). You know, the Italians were really nice people – citizens and soldiers alike – just trying to stay safe and get back home to their long-suffering loved ones.

  172. @Anon
    Germans got it pretty bad in WWI in America.

    Some got interned in WWII, but few know about it.

    http://takimag.com/article/the_nazi_kid_from_brooklyn_david_cole/print#axzz4RXq6oPuo

    Replies: @jacques sheete

    Yes. In fact the barracks used for basic trainees at Ft. Campbell, KY during the war on the Vietnamese had been previously used as German POW barracks according to the DIs back then.

  173. @Marcus
    @SPMoore8

    The British pioneered internment camps, not the Germans or Soviets. They also interned Italians and Germans in the UK during WW2.

    Replies: @SPMoore8, @jacques sheete

    The British pioneered internment camps, not the Germans or Soviets. They also interned Italians and Germans in the UK during WW2.

    They also had concentration camps in Kenya during the 1950s. They did some horrific tortures there as well such as stuffing hot eggs into women’s vaginas.

    Caroline Elkins’ book is excellent.

    Imperial Reckoning: The Untold Story of Britain’s Gulag in Kenya

    https://www.amazon.com/Imperial-Reckoning-Untold-Story-Britains/dp/0805080015

  174. Argh. That awful Pearl Harbor movie used modern destroyers dating from the 1960s and 1970s instead of WW2 ships, as you can see in the photo Steve used.

  175. @utu
    @M_Young

    "Well, yes. Japanese were horrible to surrendered prisoners." - But still they were taking the prisoners unlike Americans who had to be given incentives like ice cream and three days leave for bringing a LIVE Japanese POW. Soviets took 600,000 Japanese POW's while Americans only 35,000 which is not surprising at 100:1 kill-to-prisoner ratio in late 1944 that improved to 7:1 in mid 1945 presumably with the ice cream incentive.

    Replies: @Boomstick, @Anonymous

    …Or the US troops needed to be ice cream incentives because taking the Japanese prisoner was so hazardous.

    By the battle of Okinowa in mid-1945 more prisoners were taken because some of defenders were recently conscripted Okinowans, who turned out to not be as eager to die for the emperor.

    The Japanese would often suicide charge once the battle was lost, and otherwise attempt to take an American’s life before dying themselves.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Boomstick

    Many Japanese soldiers did surrender early on in the war:

    http://www.counter-currents.com/2015/07/dirty-japs/


    Nevertheless, almost from the first, it soon became apparent to these young men that there would be, that there could be, no surrender. Wrote one American early in the war:

    Japanese were known to come out of the jungle unarmed with their hands raised crying ‘”mercy, mercy,” only to be mowed down by machine-gun fire.

    Time and again, on every contested island and every spit of sand, Japanese soldiers and sailors were slaughtered the instant they raised their hands and walked forward to surrender. After scores of such encounters in which breathless comrades in hiding watched, waited, then witnessed the massacre of their unarmed friends, fewer and fewer Japanese soldiers entertained even the slightest notion of giving up.

    Ironically, though murdering a helpless enemy may have brought some sadistic satisfaction to Allied soldiers, the failure to take prisoners insured that thousands of comrades would also be killed by an enemy now forced to dig in and fight to the death. It is also a fact that as the war wore on and defeat became certain, more and more Japanese soldiers would have gladly surrendered if only they could.
     

    Replies: @Thirdeye

  176. The other cause of Jewish resentment towards FDR, besides the St. Louis incident, was his failure to bomb the Nazi camps where Jews were being held, even after he became aware of the holocaust. There was much anger over this when the story came out in the 1990s.

  177. Three vignettes ’bout Italians:

    The modern history of the Apennines could be best described as :

    “tutto a posto e niente in ordine” ( “everything is in its place, but nothing is in order”)

    ***

    Dems just re-elected an Italian-American political machinist to continue to binge-fringe them to either total victory or total self-immolation.

    ***

    Now that Cimino is goner, it’s just a matter of time before Cronywood orders Scorcese to get busy with directing The Dearborn Hunter; a haunting saga about Syria War related PTSD experiences of Al -Stubby, Ul-Bloody, and El-Splody- just a three ordinary Somali-American next-door Jihadees still searching for Heaven’s Gate.

    De Niro is on board as well…

  178. @Steve Sailer
    @whorefinder

    It should be doable to plot movies by how long ago they are set.

    Replies: @Buddwing, @Stationary Feast

    Not unrelated: https://xkcd.com/1491/

  179. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Boomstick
    @utu

    ...Or the US troops needed to be ice cream incentives because taking the Japanese prisoner was so hazardous.

    By the battle of Okinowa in mid-1945 more prisoners were taken because some of defenders were recently conscripted Okinowans, who turned out to not be as eager to die for the emperor.

    The Japanese would often suicide charge once the battle was lost, and otherwise attempt to take an American's life before dying themselves.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    Many Japanese soldiers did surrender early on in the war:

    http://www.counter-currents.com/2015/07/dirty-japs/

    Nevertheless, almost from the first, it soon became apparent to these young men that there would be, that there could be, no surrender. Wrote one American early in the war:

    Japanese were known to come out of the jungle unarmed with their hands raised crying ‘”mercy, mercy,” only to be mowed down by machine-gun fire.

    Time and again, on every contested island and every spit of sand, Japanese soldiers and sailors were slaughtered the instant they raised their hands and walked forward to surrender. After scores of such encounters in which breathless comrades in hiding watched, waited, then witnessed the massacre of their unarmed friends, fewer and fewer Japanese soldiers entertained even the slightest notion of giving up.

    Ironically, though murdering a helpless enemy may have brought some sadistic satisfaction to Allied soldiers, the failure to take prisoners insured that thousands of comrades would also be killed by an enemy now forced to dig in and fight to the death. It is also a fact that as the war wore on and defeat became certain, more and more Japanese soldiers would have gladly surrendered if only they could.

    • Replies: @Thirdeye
    @Anonymous

    That reminds me of some anecdotes I encountered some years ago. On Guadalcanal the Marines used to defile the corpses of Japanese they killed in raids as a terror signal to the Japanese. That pretty much ended the possibility of Japanese surrender. There was one Marine on some island later in the war who went off to take a dump and as he was taking care of business he suddenly had a Japanese soldier groveling in front of him to surrender. When the soldier was being debriefed as a POW he explained that he was looking for an opportunity to surrender without being killed.

    There was an article in Time Magazine early in the war called "Those Inscrutable Japs" that reported on the demeanor of Japanese POWs, reporting that they seemed "happy go lucky" about the situation and were fascinated by things American, especially swing music.

  180. Actually, as detailed in Jamie Bisher’s The Intelligence War in Latin America, 1914-1922, the Japanese were involved in Pancho Villa’s actions against the U.S.

    Also, after World War One, there may have been a plan considered in 1920 by Spain, Japan, and Mexico, to revive the Plan of San Diego and (however improbably) take parts of the American Southwest.

    These actions were probably on the minds of the American government in 1941 when considering possible Japanese sabotage and espionage.

  181. @whorefinder
    @M_Young


    ‘Pearl Harbor’ has all the great cinematography and CGI and all, as the scene in the clip in the post shows. And it’s neat up to a point.
     
    Pearl Harbor (2001) was a flop and critically attacked. It was so hated the guys from South Park made a whole song about how bad it was in Team America: World Police :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9jS4gppIFs

    Pearl Harbor's flopping was a combination of things.

    First it was backlash against star Ben Affleck , who had wildly overextended himself in public thanks to dating Jennifer Lopez. "Bennifer" was so much in the tabloids and Affleck was starring in so many sub-par-but-hyped movies at the time that people were vomitously sick of him. (Daredevil, anyone?) The backlash against Affleck was so bad he retreated behind the camera for years to rehab his image, and yet even then there was some carryover when he was cast as Batman in the recent spate of DC comics movies----many people were bitching about it, calling him Batfleck, and bringing up J'Lo and Daredevil all over again. Thankfully for Affleck, his Batman turned out to have been the best thing about the recent Justice League films.

    Second, it's the undying hatred crticis/Lefties has for Michael Bay. Bay probably would have been a stupdenously-lauded silent film director, (likely Westerns/action films of the era; I could picture him and Douglas Fairbanks working together a lot), but in the era of sound and p.c and where heroes are supposed to all spout believable-p.c.-tirades and action is for kids he's ridiculed.

    Bay tells his stories visually and with the "male gaze" (Megan Fox, anyone?) and macho male mindset as his POV, and loves special effects, but critics want more feminized talky-talky stuff and hate his love for children's cartoons of the 80s and his overall love of macho masculinity. Yet he made The Rock, one of the best movies of the 1990s, and makes a mint at the box office. Pearl Harbor was one of his few flops, and critics jumped on him for it. Bay reminds me of Cecil B. DeMille in how the latter was criticized as artless and yet made more memorable scenes than the art-house set.

    Third, WW2 movie fatigue was setting in by the time of Pearl Harbor (2001). Schlinder's List (1993) had re-ignited the WW2 Hollywood film--a genre had been shunted aside in the late 70s and 80s in favor of the Vietnam War films---and Braveheart (1995) made epics popular again, so Saving Private Ryan (1998) was feasible.

    And the 1990s saw the 50th Anniversary of WW2 and the realization that all those old vets were dying off, so there was a nostalgia craze for it as well. (50 years later seems to be a magic number for filmmakers to get interested in an era again; the 1970s saw a huge boom in movies about the 1920s and bootlegging and the like; the 1950s saw a boom in movies about the turn of the 20th Century and the end of the Gay Nineties).

    But by 2001 the boom was over and people were kind of over WW2 films by then. After Pearl Harbor, WW2 films tended to be smaller budget dramas, although Tarantino's Inglorious Basterds was an exception. But nobody was making a WW2 film as their tentpole summer flick after Pearl Harbor.

    Replies: @whorefinder, @The Man From K Street, @Clyde, @SPMoore8, @Thirdeye, @Anonymous

    Pearl Harbor took so may liberties with historical fact for the sake of contrived plot devices that it became eye-roll material. Welsh and Taylor recruited for the Doolittle raid? Sheesh! Even the tactics of P-40s vs Zekes were ass-backward. No, P-40 pilots did not dogfight Zekes. Or at least they didn’t dogfight and live to tell about it. The movie would also have us believe that kids were playing baseball at 7 am on a Sunday.

  182. @Tim
    If you grew up in Maryland--and are old--you know who Gino Marchetti is. One of the Greatest defensive ends in NFL history, his parents were Italian immigrants living in the Bay Area of Northern California. The war came and they were locked up.

    The way I read it, when his parents got interned, Gino got so mad he enlisted in the U.S. Army Infantry and literally fought his way across Europe to cover the shame (yes, he was embarrassed to have his parents locked up).

    When he came back home he played football for University of San Francisco. He was also one of those home coming hell raising motorcycle club members who invaded small towns in California, got drunk and scared the hell out of everybody. The movie, "The Wild Ones" was about his motorcycle club.

    Anyways, he still alive, is a devote Catholic and a member of the Knights of Columbus. He is a great American, and he never complained about having his parents locked up, he understood that we were at war with the Italians.

    Replies: @Black Death

    Well’ I’m old, and I remember Gino. He lived on Greendale Road, across from the old VA Hospital, near Memorial Stadium, where he played. Art Donovan lived on the same street. My family had a house one block over. All of us kids idolized the players (Brook Robinson also lived there).

  183. @Anonymous
    @Boomstick

    Many Japanese soldiers did surrender early on in the war:

    http://www.counter-currents.com/2015/07/dirty-japs/


    Nevertheless, almost from the first, it soon became apparent to these young men that there would be, that there could be, no surrender. Wrote one American early in the war:

    Japanese were known to come out of the jungle unarmed with their hands raised crying ‘”mercy, mercy,” only to be mowed down by machine-gun fire.

    Time and again, on every contested island and every spit of sand, Japanese soldiers and sailors were slaughtered the instant they raised their hands and walked forward to surrender. After scores of such encounters in which breathless comrades in hiding watched, waited, then witnessed the massacre of their unarmed friends, fewer and fewer Japanese soldiers entertained even the slightest notion of giving up.

    Ironically, though murdering a helpless enemy may have brought some sadistic satisfaction to Allied soldiers, the failure to take prisoners insured that thousands of comrades would also be killed by an enemy now forced to dig in and fight to the death. It is also a fact that as the war wore on and defeat became certain, more and more Japanese soldiers would have gladly surrendered if only they could.
     

    Replies: @Thirdeye

    That reminds me of some anecdotes I encountered some years ago. On Guadalcanal the Marines used to defile the corpses of Japanese they killed in raids as a terror signal to the Japanese. That pretty much ended the possibility of Japanese surrender. There was one Marine on some island later in the war who went off to take a dump and as he was taking care of business he suddenly had a Japanese soldier groveling in front of him to surrender. When the soldier was being debriefed as a POW he explained that he was looking for an opportunity to surrender without being killed.

    There was an article in Time Magazine early in the war called “Those Inscrutable Japs” that reported on the demeanor of Japanese POWs, reporting that they seemed “happy go lucky” about the situation and were fascinated by things American, especially swing music.

  184. @Taco
    @Captain Tripps

    Was James Buchanan Irish?

    Replies: @Captain Tripps, @John Galt

    I believe both Jackson and Buchanan were descendants of Ulster Scots-Irish, so they would be considered under the general original founding stock lumped into “Anglo”, though with very different temperaments than the Founding Fathers. See David Hackett-Fischer’s “Albions Seed” for a good, detailed treatment of the four different “English” settler groups into colonial North America.

  185. @Taco
    @Captain Tripps

    Was James Buchanan Irish?

    Replies: @Captain Tripps, @John Galt

    Scots-Irish Protestant.

  186. @whorefinder
    @M_Young


    ‘Pearl Harbor’ has all the great cinematography and CGI and all, as the scene in the clip in the post shows. And it’s neat up to a point.
     
    Pearl Harbor (2001) was a flop and critically attacked. It was so hated the guys from South Park made a whole song about how bad it was in Team America: World Police :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9jS4gppIFs

    Pearl Harbor's flopping was a combination of things.

    First it was backlash against star Ben Affleck , who had wildly overextended himself in public thanks to dating Jennifer Lopez. "Bennifer" was so much in the tabloids and Affleck was starring in so many sub-par-but-hyped movies at the time that people were vomitously sick of him. (Daredevil, anyone?) The backlash against Affleck was so bad he retreated behind the camera for years to rehab his image, and yet even then there was some carryover when he was cast as Batman in the recent spate of DC comics movies----many people were bitching about it, calling him Batfleck, and bringing up J'Lo and Daredevil all over again. Thankfully for Affleck, his Batman turned out to have been the best thing about the recent Justice League films.

    Second, it's the undying hatred crticis/Lefties has for Michael Bay. Bay probably would have been a stupdenously-lauded silent film director, (likely Westerns/action films of the era; I could picture him and Douglas Fairbanks working together a lot), but in the era of sound and p.c and where heroes are supposed to all spout believable-p.c.-tirades and action is for kids he's ridiculed.

    Bay tells his stories visually and with the "male gaze" (Megan Fox, anyone?) and macho male mindset as his POV, and loves special effects, but critics want more feminized talky-talky stuff and hate his love for children's cartoons of the 80s and his overall love of macho masculinity. Yet he made The Rock, one of the best movies of the 1990s, and makes a mint at the box office. Pearl Harbor was one of his few flops, and critics jumped on him for it. Bay reminds me of Cecil B. DeMille in how the latter was criticized as artless and yet made more memorable scenes than the art-house set.

    Third, WW2 movie fatigue was setting in by the time of Pearl Harbor (2001). Schlinder's List (1993) had re-ignited the WW2 Hollywood film--a genre had been shunted aside in the late 70s and 80s in favor of the Vietnam War films---and Braveheart (1995) made epics popular again, so Saving Private Ryan (1998) was feasible.

    And the 1990s saw the 50th Anniversary of WW2 and the realization that all those old vets were dying off, so there was a nostalgia craze for it as well. (50 years later seems to be a magic number for filmmakers to get interested in an era again; the 1970s saw a huge boom in movies about the 1920s and bootlegging and the like; the 1950s saw a boom in movies about the turn of the 20th Century and the end of the Gay Nineties).

    But by 2001 the boom was over and people were kind of over WW2 films by then. After Pearl Harbor, WW2 films tended to be smaller budget dramas, although Tarantino's Inglorious Basterds was an exception. But nobody was making a WW2 film as their tentpole summer flick after Pearl Harbor.

    Replies: @whorefinder, @The Man From K Street, @Clyde, @SPMoore8, @Thirdeye, @Anonymous

    I remember the movie had cool action scenes but it was really long and kind of a drag. I think that’s why it got bad reviews. It could’ve been edited better.

  187. @Jack D
    @Steve Sailer

    Privates in those days made only $50/week so that was small consolation. Many of the interned Japanese had had businesses and properties that were confiscated and proper compensation was not paid until decades later. The internment was understandable as war time panic but it was never the right thing to do.

    Still, the modern leftist view is to focus on everything bad about America and none of the good. America has a 200+ year human rights record that would be the envy of almost any other country. The internment was one small blemish on a magnificent Constitutional framework but it gets talked about endlessly instead of the other 99% of times when our brilliantly designed Constitution worked as the Founding Fathers intended. America is like Michelangelo's David but all these people want to talk about is a chip on a toe.

    Replies: @Whoever

    Privates in those days made only $50/week

    A bit overstated.

    Navy base pay per month, as established in 1942 (I assume Army pay was similar):
    Grade Pay per Month Class or Rating
    1 $138 Chief petty officers, permanent appointment.
    1A $126 Chief petty officers, acting appointment.
    2 $114 Petty officers, first class.
    3 $96 Petty officers, second class.
    4 $78 Petty officers, third class.
    5 $66 Non-rated men, first class.
    6 $54 Non-rated men, second class.
    7 $50 Apprentice seamen.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    @Whoever

    I made $700.00/mo. as a private in 1989. That was after pay raises for the volunteer Army and a lot of inflation.

    Replies: @Whoever

  188. Anonymous [AKA "HauteCuisine"] says:
    @Bacon Eater
    In addition to Pearl Harbor, I think the Niihau Incident might be mentioned as another instance of understated "political tensions growing".

    Very short version: right after Pearl Harbor, a Japanese plane crashlands on the Hawaiian island of Niihau, and the Japanese immigrants and second-generation immigrants there all take the Japanese pilot's side against America in ensuing shootout.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Anonymous

    I just read the Wikipedia entry of the incident.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niihau_incident

    Talk about a great plot for a ready-made movie!

    Nah, not PC enough. Perhaps an anglo strafing an African coastal village and then seeing the consequences after crash-landing near said village?

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Anonymous


    I just read the Wikipedia entry of the incident.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niihau_incident

    Talk about a great plot for a ready-made movie!

    Nah, not PC enough. Perhaps an anglo strafing an African coastal village and then seeing the consequences after crash-landing near said village?
     
    Just goes to prove what I always say:

    Never shoot a Pacific Islander.

    It just makes him mad.
  189. My grandpa who grew up in New York during the war, claimed that Germans were forced to stay in Central Park in a sort of semi imprisonment. My gramma, also, from New York claims he was making it up.. But you know, maybe back then they did it , and it really didn’t become widespread knowledge. Who knows..

    My grandpa was happy about it tho. He hated Germans growing up in NYC. He grew up in an Irish enclave of Yorkville, Manhattan, same neighborhood as jimmy Cagney. Yorkville was a German neighborhood, except for a smallIrish part. Now it’s a millionaire neighborhood

  190. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “…Also revealing: if any locale was vulnerable, it was Hawaii. Yet the Nissei were far more critical to the local economy there than on the West Coast, so there was no internment, no destruction of businesses, homes, families, farms.”

    And:

    “…The likely reason that Japanese in Hawaii weren’t interned was that for the duration of the war the islands were swarming with soldiers and sailors, which made acts of sabotage or rebellion by civilians futile….”

    Huh??

    Sand Island:

    “…During World War II, Sand Island was used as an Army internment camp to house Japanese Americans as well as expatriates from Germany, Italy and other Axis countries living in Hawaii. The camp opened in December 1941, soon after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor and the subsequent mass arrests of civilians accused — often without evidence — of espionage or other fifth column activity. Over 600 Hawaiian residents, many of them U.S. citizens, would pass through Sand Island before it was closed in March 1943. Most of the internees had been transferred to Army and Department of Justice internment camps on the mainland beginning in February 1942; the remaining 149 were moved to the newly constructed Honouliuli Internment Camp.”

    Honouliuli Internment Camp:

    “…Of the seventeen sites that were associated with the history of internment in Hawaiʻi during World War II, the camp was the only one built specifically for prolonged detention.”

    Sanji Abe:

    “…the Army took Abe into “custodial detention” anyway soon after, a fact which they did not publicly announce… This time, no charge was filed against him. The writ of habeas corpus had been suspended due to martial law. Unable to serve out his term as a state senator, Abe resigned… He was the last Japanese American to resign from the Hawaii territorial legislature; his resignation marked the first time since 1931 that Hawaii had no state legislators of Japanese extraction. Abe would be held for a total of nineteen months… at Sand Island, and then at the Honouliuli Internment Camp…

    Seishiro Okazaki:

    “…immigrated to Hawaii in 1906… founded the American Jujitsu Institute in the Territory of Hawaii in 1939…

    …Like tens of thousands of other Japanese-Americans, Okazaki was interned during the war…”

    Thomas Sakakihara:

    “…a Japanese American politician from Hawaii, interned due to his ancestry during World War II…

    …Sakakihara and roughly thirty other prominent Japanese “enemy aliens or suspected sympathisers” were arrested by the Army. He was held at the Honouliuli Internment Camp until 1943; his release was conditional on a signed pledge not to sue the U.S. government for damages related to the internment.”

    Note to a future historian(s) with access to really big computers and lots of once secret files… the amount of confusion, spin, PC, disinformation, who knows what spycraft chicanery and out-right who-the-heck knows about all this is really high. A good PhD dissertation on what really happened awaits you! The internment may well have been justified. It’s the sort of thing Batman would have done for lack of any other plan that would work…

    • Replies: @Seth Largo
    @anonymous

    You're a moron.

    Do some math. Here are the relevant variables: Number of Japanese living in Hawaii; number of Japanese living on the mainland; total number of Japanese interred in Hawaii; total number of Japanese interred on the mainland.

    Replies: @SPMoore8

  191. Honouliuli Internment Camp:

    “…Hawaiʻi’s largest and longest-operating internment camp…

    …designated Honouliuli National Monument by Presidential Proclamation on February 19, 2015 by President Barack Obama…”

    “Obama Declares Oahu Internment Camp a National Monument”, Molly Solomon, Hawaii Public Radio, Feb 18, 2015.

  192. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    In the decades leading up to WWII the Japanese intelligence service, acting world-wide in an industrial-espionage capacity and widely established, played a big role in a unique achievement that rapidly moved Japan near-into the first world.

    Due to the complexity of Japanese culture and language, no foreign intelligence service was ever able to penetrate Japanese intelligence before WWII (or at least so I’ve heard; anyone know different?). Sure, probably less than some small percent of Japanese-Americans were Japanese intelligence, but it was impossible to say which.

    In addition, a small percentage of Japanese-American males were returning to fight for the Japanese. (See ‘1000 days in Siberia: The Odyssey of a Japanese-American POW’ by a Californian who was in the Japanese Army and ended-up spending some time after the war working in Soviet mines with his captured unit.)

    Many Japanese had been university students in America, but were loyal to Japan. There are numerous stories of bomber pilots in the Pacific being interrogated by Japanese officers who started by saying something like “I got my degree from UCLA…”.

    There’s a story (not sure about this) that Japanese intelligence worked closely with a Spanish free-lance spy-ring that had worked for Franco and relocated to Mexico; apparently they were the only external spies to get direct physical evidence (samples) of the US atom bomb tests and were able to pass the info on to the Japanese. (Mexican shepherds were very useful…)

    Someone mentioned the Nihau Incident at the start of the war where one of the Japanese pilots in the Pearl Harbor attack crash-landed on the remote Hawaiian island of Niihau. So it wasn’t clear where Japanese-American loyalties always _really_ lay, if push came to shove.

    See also the book “The Niihau Incident: The True Story of the Japanese Fighter Pilot Who, After the Pearl Harbor Attack, Crash-Landed on the Hawaiian Island of Niihau and Terrorized the Residents”.

    Japanese intelligence had been operating in the West for a good while and had recruited western spies. For instance, the rapid Fall of Malaya (Singapore) may be in good part due to a British Army-Air liaison officer (who knew everything), Patrick Stanley Vaughan Heenan, a Japanese spy who was in routine communication with the Japanese via a short-wave radio disguised as a typewriter. He was caught in the act operating his gear near to the fall of Singapore (and executed); western intelligence services no doubt begun to realize the problem they faced.

    The Japanese had been on a “technical intelligence” binge for decades, obtaining Western technology, often with the utmost help of various friends and allies in the West. Who else besides Patrick might be out there at key places in western militaries, sold out for money or ideology (Patrick was apparently “IRA”)? One of the few things to do to deal with this was disrupt the spies handlers; since they couldn’t be identified, by internment of the entire Japanese population. Not foolproof, but a reasonable thing to do.

    The US had good intelligence on a number of Japanese-Americans working for Japan in the US. Most of this intelligence was signals interception based. With no penetration of the Japanese spy networks, the only way to disrupt these assets without revealing the signals interception was interning the entire population. (Signal intelligence was a big deal in the Pacific as well as in Europe (all that Enigma stuff), things like winning the crucial Battle of Midway depended on signals intelligence.)

    The Japanese also were strongly anti-communist (they had a communism problem), no need to bring to light murkey pre-WWII things after the war, when staunch anti-communist allies were needed… in 5 years or so they were keeping us in logistics during the Korean war.

  193. @Buffalo Joe
    @Steve Sailer

    Steve, Every Italian-American has heard the "jokes', I prefer insults, about Italians in warfare, but many Italian Americans distinquished themselves in WWII, including Sgt. John Basilone, USMC. Basilone was awarded the Medal of Honor for his heroic lone stand against a company of Japanese at Guadacanal and later at Iwo Jima, where he was awarded the Navy Cross. John was killed in action at Iwo. I may be wrong but I think Basilone and Audey Murphy are the only recipients of both a Medal of Honor and a Service Cross.

    Replies: @David In TN, @william munny

    Basilone was the furthest thing from a coward and is a legend in the Marine Corps, and lauded to new recruits as an example to follow in boot camp. He was a celebrity after winning his medal of honor on Guadalcanal and was used actively in raising war bond money. He could have rode that out, but insisted on getting back in the fight and died on Iwo Jima. His hometown in NJ still has a parade and celebration honoring him every year.

  194. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    In retrospect, it turned out that all you had to do was ask Japanese people which side they were on. If they swore loyalty, you could rely on their oath. If they swore undying fealty to the Emperor, as about 5,000 did, well, you could rely on those guys to be a handful. The Japanese in 1940s America didn’t seem to have much concept of taqiyya.

    I’m not so sure of that…

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Japanese_spies,_1930–45

    If you dig in to what the Japanese were up to in Mexico prior to, and during WWII, you might find American paranoia wasn’t based on bigotry. It was based on Japanese spies in Mexico with ham radios in constant contact with Japanese forces.

    Imagine allowing Japanese Americans and immigrants access to our major harbors on the west coast during WWII, with a few emboldened with the kamikaze doctrine, and secure in the belief that their emperor was God. Putting coastal japanese in concentration camps was the right, and humane thing to do, especially as the war with Japan heated up, and injured American soldiers came back to share their direct experiences with primitive savage behavior of the desperate Japanese military.

  195. Anonymous [AKA "Kearn Schemm"] says: • Website

    Thanks for at least mentioning the German-American Internees. According to Congressional testimony, 60,000 were arrested even before we were at war with Germany. Many thousands of German-, Italian- and Japanese- Latin Americans were also kidnapped from their home countries at the request of the State Department, which allowed the “exporting” countries to keep all their assets! Brazil refused to send their Germans to the US, but set up camps in which at least 15,000 were interned – people whose families had been in Brazil since the early 1800s! Many German=Americans were interned until 1948 – ironically on Ellis Island within sight of the Statue of Liberty. Many were deported, DURING THE WAR to Germany and were bombed by their own American countrymen. The internment of Japanese, German and Italian Americans was a disgrace, all three groups should get restitution, not just the Japanese. As one G-A internee put it (she worked as a nurse in the Chrystal City Texas Camp), “every Japanese child I helped deliver was given an apology and 20,000 dollars by the US government. Every German child I delivered in the same room got nothing.”

  196. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    @Bacon Eater

    I just read the Wikipedia entry of the incident.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niihau_incident

    Talk about a great plot for a ready-made movie!

    Nah, not PC enough. Perhaps an anglo strafing an African coastal village and then seeing the consequences after crash-landing near said village?

    Replies: @Anon

    I just read the Wikipedia entry of the incident.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niihau_incident

    Talk about a great plot for a ready-made movie!

    Nah, not PC enough. Perhaps an anglo strafing an African coastal village and then seeing the consequences after crash-landing near said village?

    Just goes to prove what I always say:

    Never shoot a Pacific Islander.

    It just makes him mad.

  197. OT

    The 75th anniversary of the Pearl Harbor attack was supposed to be full of celebrates (Tom Hanks!) getting recognition from Obama.

    Now Obama is not coming:

    http://www.staradvertiser.com/2016/12/02/hawaii-news/no-plans-for-obama-to-travel-to-hawaii-for-pearl-memorial/

  198. Pearl harbor was the slowest paced movie I have ever seen. It also was filled with characters I disliked and could not care about. At times I would look at the ceiling in the theater and asked when is this movie going toe end? At a certain point, I was cheering for the Japanese to end this nonsense. Then Bay did something I would never forgive him for. Th Afflack wants to get the Japs. He could have followed Robert Scott and join the Flying Tigers in China. No, he goes on the Doolittle Raid.
    I then watched Tora Tora Tora. What a movie!

  199. @Captain Tripps
    @wren


    Do/did we have Afghan Americans fighting the Iraqis and Iraqi Americans fighting the Taliban?
     
    We have a pretty large population, so almost certainly there have been some examples of what you cite. But not anywhere near the levels of how many Italian-Americans and German-Americans fought on our side in WWII.

    Remember, Americans of German ancestry are the largest sub-ethnic population in the United States, and in fact Germans have been here in large numbers since the mid-1800's. I have ancestry from this group of German immigrants on my mother's side. Indeed, the XI (11th) Corps of the Army of the Potomac in the Civil War was composed of a majority of German immigrants, many of whom didn't even speak English, they had arrived so soon. Looking at some of the names of their commanders gives you a sense of the picture (Schurz, Schimmelfennig, von Steinwehr, Stahel). Unfortunately, for them, they took the brunt of Lee's better generals (Jackson at Chancellorville, and Early at Gettysburg) and earned a reputation for poor combat (mostly due to their inept commanders). By the time of WWII, millions of Americans had significant German ancestry and were well assimilated into the mainstream of American (WASP) culture, as evidenced by Ike (Eisenhower) being our top General in the European theater. Those who weren't apt to do so probably migrated back to the Fatherland after WWI, when anti-German sentiment (both official and unofficial) was pretty high.

    In fact, Ike's election to the Presidency represented the culmination of German-Americans' ascendancy in the dominant WASP culture; I believe Ike was the first non-Anglo/Dutch (at least by surname) American to be elected President.

    Same goes for Italian-Americans, to a lesser extent. There were millions whose ancestors had arrived in the late 1800's/early 1900's to make them thoroughly American by the time of the war.

    Replies: @Taco, @PV van der Byl

    You may be technically correct about Ike being the first President without either an Anglo-Celtic or Dutch name.

    But, the original surname of Herbert Hoover’s Swiss-German ancestors was Huber, a pretty common name in German speaking countries and not uncommon in the U.S. today.

    So, Huber was anglicized to Hoover. But, I would bet the original spelling of Ike’s family name was Eisenhauer (“Iron-hewer”). So, even his name probably went through some anglicization.

  200. @anonymous
    "...Also revealing: if any locale was vulnerable, it was Hawaii. Yet the Nissei were far more critical to the local economy there than on the West Coast, so there was no internment, no destruction of businesses, homes, families, farms."

    And:

    "...The likely reason that Japanese in Hawaii weren’t interned was that for the duration of the war the islands were swarming with soldiers and sailors, which made acts of sabotage or rebellion by civilians futile...."

    Huh??

    Sand Island:


    “…During World War II, Sand Island was used as an Army internment camp to house Japanese Americans as well as expatriates from Germany, Italy and other Axis countries living in Hawaii. The camp opened in December 1941, soon after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor and the subsequent mass arrests of civilians accused — often without evidence — of espionage or other fifth column activity. Over 600 Hawaiian residents, many of them U.S. citizens, would pass through Sand Island before it was closed in March 1943. Most of the internees had been transferred to Army and Department of Justice internment camps on the mainland beginning in February 1942; the remaining 149 were moved to the newly constructed Honouliuli Internment Camp.”

     

    Honouliuli Internment Camp:


    “…Of the seventeen sites that were associated with the history of internment in Hawaiʻi during World War II, the camp was the only one built specifically for prolonged detention.”

     

    Sanji Abe:


    “…the Army took Abe into “custodial detention” anyway soon after, a fact which they did not publicly announce… This time, no charge was filed against him. The writ of habeas corpus had been suspended due to martial law. Unable to serve out his term as a state senator, Abe resigned… He was the last Japanese American to resign from the Hawaii territorial legislature; his resignation marked the first time since 1931 that Hawaii had no state legislators of Japanese extraction. Abe would be held for a total of nineteen months… at Sand Island, and then at the Honouliuli Internment Camp…"

     

    Seishiro Okazaki:


    “…immigrated to Hawaii in 1906… founded the American Jujitsu Institute in the Territory of Hawaii in 1939...

    …Like tens of thousands of other Japanese-Americans, Okazaki was interned during the war…”

     

    Thomas Sakakihara:


    “…a Japanese American politician from Hawaii, interned due to his ancestry during World War II...

    ...Sakakihara and roughly thirty other prominent Japanese “enemy aliens or suspected sympathisers” were arrested by the Army. He was held at the Honouliuli Internment Camp until 1943; his release was conditional on a signed pledge not to sue the U.S. government for damages related to the internment.”

     

    Note to a future historian(s) with access to really big computers and lots of once secret files... the amount of confusion, spin, PC, disinformation, who knows what spycraft chicanery and out-right who-the-heck knows about all this is really high. A good PhD dissertation on what really happened awaits you! The internment may well have been justified. It's the sort of thing Batman would have done for lack of any other plan that would work...

    Replies: @Seth Largo

    You’re a moron.

    Do some math. Here are the relevant variables: Number of Japanese living in Hawaii; number of Japanese living on the mainland; total number of Japanese interred in Hawaii; total number of Japanese interred on the mainland.

    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    @Seth Largo

    About 160,000 ethnic Japanese in the Hawaiian Islands, about 40% of the population. They're probably all assimilated now.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

  201. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @utu
    @M_Young

    "Well, yes. Japanese were horrible to surrendered prisoners." - But still they were taking the prisoners unlike Americans who had to be given incentives like ice cream and three days leave for bringing a LIVE Japanese POW. Soviets took 600,000 Japanese POW's while Americans only 35,000 which is not surprising at 100:1 kill-to-prisoner ratio in late 1944 that improved to 7:1 in mid 1945 presumably with the ice cream incentive.

    Replies: @Boomstick, @Anonymous

    It’s my understanding that a contributing factor to this mentality was a few early incidents of IJA soldiers appearing to surrender to US troops, only to produce a hidden grenade to kill both themselves and their would-be captors (or something of that nature). If true, I can understand the development of a “better safe than sorry” mentality among the hard-nosed Jarheads.

    • Replies: @David In TN
    @Anonymous

    See E.B. Sledge's book, "With the Old Breed."

  202. @Anonymous
    @Blosky

    When one considers the one-sided turkey-shoot that the British/Italian 'war of the Mediterranean' was, and the enormity of the Italian casualties, one is left with very little sympathy with the that current plague of boat-borne invaders currently voluntarily choosing to put out to sea in inadequate craft and afterwards complaining of 'difficulties'.

    One is simultaneously puzzled and appalled at the pain, stark abursidty of current Italian 'ferrying' operations of a blatant hostile invasionary force.

    Replies: @Old Palo Altan

    Ir was part of the price extorted from them when they were saved from financial collapse by the EU.
    But it is all about to end: on Sunday the traitorous, imposed PM will see his referendum defeated and himself forced out. The Right will be back in short order and the ferrying operations will stop.
    Soon enough to save Italy? Let’s hope so, because without Italy there is no Europe.

  203. @Gabriel M

    (One difference is that the Axis more or less was.)
     
    This is not true. The Nazis and, still more so, the Japanese, were in the grip of some seriously evil madness, but they were neither individually, nor in concert, trying to conquer the world. There was only one country involved in WW2 who was trying to conquer the world and, not coincidentally, it was the country that actually did.

    Replies: @bomag, @Hibernian, @Bill Jones, @snorlax, @Sam Haysom, @Anonymous, @neon2

    Anybody who seriously believes that Germany was out to “conquer the world” knows no history and prefers propoganda.
    Hitler wanted Lebensraum in the east and the annihilation of Communism.
    He also wanted the British Empire to flourish; since that Empire controlled a good one-third of it, it is clear that conquering the world was simply not part of Hitler’s vision.
    And do please try to remember who declared war upon whom (and for the second time in twenty-five years).

    • Agree: dfordoom
  204. @Whoever
    @Jack D


    Privates in those days made only $50/week
     
    A bit overstated.

    Navy base pay per month, as established in 1942 (I assume Army pay was similar):
    Grade Pay per Month Class or Rating
    1 $138 Chief petty officers, permanent appointment.
    1A $126 Chief petty officers, acting appointment.
    2 $114 Petty officers, first class.
    3 $96 Petty officers, second class.
    4 $78 Petty officers, third class.
    5 $66 Non-rated men, first class.
    6 $54 Non-rated men, second class.
    7 $50 Apprentice seamen.

    Replies: @Hibernian

    I made $700.00/mo. as a private in 1989. That was after pay raises for the volunteer Army and a lot of inflation.

    • Replies: @Whoever
    @Hibernian

    Interesting. I recall reading in From Here To Eternity, the James Jones novel about the pre-Pearl Harbor army, that protagonist Private Prewitt made $21 a month.
    Today an E-1 with less than two years service makes about $1,600 a month.

    Replies: @Whoever

  205. @Seth Largo
    @anonymous

    You're a moron.

    Do some math. Here are the relevant variables: Number of Japanese living in Hawaii; number of Japanese living on the mainland; total number of Japanese interred in Hawaii; total number of Japanese interred on the mainland.

    Replies: @SPMoore8

    About 160,000 ethnic Japanese in the Hawaiian Islands, about 40% of the population. They’re probably all assimilated now.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @SPMoore8

    They seemed pretty assimilated 50 years ago when I was in grade school there. But definitely assimilated to Hawaiianness more than generic Americanness. Kind of like Brooklyn…

  206. @Desiderius
    @Reg Cæsar


    Upstate New York and rural New England will finally be vindicated!
     
    Looks like Trump really is the second coming of FDR.

    I'm still hoping for William of Orange, or at least George Hanover.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Trump and FDR both lost their own part of the state, badly– and to out-of-staters– but won the other. I’ll give you that.

    Trump carried over 45 of the state’s 62 counties. FDR was lucky to get ten.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @Reg Cæsar

    Was referring to the national map.

  207. @SPMoore8
    @Seth Largo

    About 160,000 ethnic Japanese in the Hawaiian Islands, about 40% of the population. They're probably all assimilated now.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    They seemed pretty assimilated 50 years ago when I was in grade school there. But definitely assimilated to Hawaiianness more than generic Americanness. Kind of like Brooklyn…

    • Agree: SPMoore8
  208. @Reg Cæsar
    @Desiderius

    Trump and FDR both lost their own part of the state, badly-- and to out-of-staters-- but won the other. I'll give you that.

    Trump carried over 45 of the state's 62 counties. FDR was lucky to get ten.

    Replies: @Desiderius

    Was referring to the national map.

  209. @Jefferson
    "It doesn’t fit into modern categories so it’s forgotten"

    That's because we Italians do not belong to the coalition of the fringes, but the Japanese certainly do. The Japs vote in a monolithic bloc for The Democratic Party. Has anybody here ever met a Jap Republican?

    Japanese Americans are a lot more Left Wing than the Japs in Japan.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Milo Minderbinder, @snorlax, @Anonymous, @Sam Lawrence

    It should be called “The Coalition Of The Whinges”.

  210. @Hibernian
    @Whoever

    I made $700.00/mo. as a private in 1989. That was after pay raises for the volunteer Army and a lot of inflation.

    Replies: @Whoever

    Interesting. I recall reading in From Here To Eternity, the James Jones novel about the pre-Pearl Harbor army, that protagonist Private Prewitt made $21 a month.
    Today an E-1 with less than two years service makes about $1,600 a month.

    • Replies: @Whoever
    @Whoever

    As a follow-up, minimum wage in 1942 was 30 cents an hour, so the $50 a month a draftee was paid was basically minimum wage. I found a story in a 1944 publication that stated the average draftee left a civilian job paying $300 a month.
    So, considering that living conditions in Camp Treestump, La., were pretty much on par with those in a minimum security prison--see Bill Mauldin's early "Willy and Joe" stateside cartoons or Jean Shepherd's yarns about his army days for a taste of the life--Steve's original aside that millions of Americans also were "interned" along with west coast Japanese seems reasonable.

  211. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “…About 160,000 ethnic Japanese in the Hawaiian Islands, about 40% of the population.”

    Most were fieldhands, they were not a threat after the Japanese-American (and Japanese immigrant) politicians and leaders (the “educated/leadership class”) were interned. Japanese leadership in Hawaii was identifiable and decapacitated.

    “The Untold Story: Internment of Japanese Americans in Hawai’i”:

    “…with large numbers of Japanese laborers migrating here after 1885, the government had secretly drafted preemptive lists to allow authorities to make quick arrests of hundreds of local Japanese in the event of war with Japan. By 1920, more than 40 percent of Hawai‘i’s population were of Japanese ancestry, and the fear was that local Japanese had too much economic and political control in the islands and needed to be carefully watched…

    Within hours after the Pearl Harbor attack on December 7, 1941, people of Japanese ancestry in Hawai‘i were selectively rounded up, arrested and kept in holding cells and local jails before being transferred to camps across the islands. Mainly male leaders of the immigrant community, a handful of women and some Nisei, as well as about 100 local Germans and Italians, were interned…

    …Most internees were detained throughout the war…

    …On the West Coast, approximately 120,000 people were incarcerated. Approximately 1,330 Japanese from Hawai‘i were interned…”

    So they iced the potential leadership. One reason they were so prepared to do this was they were actively monitoring Japanese spying around Pearl Harbor, they knew they had a problem, that forced them to act.

    “The Untold Story: Japanese-Americans’ WWII Internment in Hawaii”, Frances Kai-Hwa Wang, NBC News, Aug 2 2014:

    “…The internment of Japanese Americans in Hawaii is not as well-known as that on the mainland United States. Because Japanese Americans were crucial to the economic health of Hawaii, the FBI detained only the leaders of the Japanese, German, and Italian-American communities after the bombing of Pearl Harbor…”

  212. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Wikipedia has an interesting page, American people convicted of spying for Japan. Japanese intelligence was active in the US and was successful recruiting Americans to spy for Japan:

    Velvalee Dickinson:

    “…In February 1942… a letter… intercepted by wartime censors… the FBI initiated an espionage investigation…

    …information matched damage done to the aircraft carrier USS Saratoga…

    …the letters contained codetext conveying information on the US Navy’s ships and their location, condition, repair and status, with emphasis on ships damaged at Pearl Harbor…

    …The box contained $13,000, eventually traced to Japanese sources. A portion of the money had been in the hands of a Captain Yuzo Ishikawa of the Japanese Naval Inspector’s Office in New York…”

    John Semer Farnsworth:

    “…a former United States Navy officer who was convicted of spying for Japan…

    …He was identified as Agent K in radio messages intercepted by the Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI)…

    …After marrying a society woman, Farnsworth got heavily into debt…

    …Disgruntled and in need of money, he began spying for Japan, which had been attempting to recruit many Americans for espionage in the 1920s and 1930s. He passed his information to his handlers, Commander Yoshiyuki Ichimiya, assistant Naval attaché at the Japanese Embassy from October 1932 to December 1934, and Lt. Commander Arika Yamaki…

    …Once, feigning drunkenness and pretending that he was a commander, he boarded a destroyer at Annapolis, tricked an ensign into giving him maneuver data, rushed back to the Japanese Embassy, had them photostatted, and returned them the next day…

    stole a confidential Navy manual, The Service of Information and Security, which contained plans for battle information and tactics …he had photostatted the manual and sold it to the Japanese…

    …he had borrowed code and signal books and had been asking questions about tactics, new ship designs, and weapons…”

    Harry Thompson:

    “…a former United States Navy yeoman who spied for Japan against the United States in 1934–35…

    …His handler was an officer of the Imperial Japanese Navy, Lt. Cmdr. Toshio Miyazaki… who was an exchange student of English at Stanford University…

    …he was able to sell engineering, gunnery, and tactical information about the Pacific Fleet

    Japanese coded radio messages were intercepted and deciphered… cryptanalyst Agnes Meyer Driscoll had marked a section containing the word To-mi-mu-ra… the word became Tomison, which is the Japanese way of pronouncing Thompson…”

  213. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “About 160,000 ethnic Japanese in the Hawaiian Islands, about 40% of the population.”

    According to the following they aren’t 40% any more, today maybe more like 14% (more Filipinos than Japanese):

    Hawaii, Population:

    “…Hawaii’s Asian population consists mainly of

    198,000 (14.6%) Filipino Americans,

    185,000 (13.6%) Japanese Americans,

    roughly 55,000 (4.0%) Chinese Americans,

    and 24,000 (1.8%) Korean Americans.

    There are over 80,000 Indigenous Hawaiians—5.9% of the population.

    Including those with partial ancestry, Samoan Americans constitute 2.8% of Hawaii’s population, and Tongan Americans constitute 0.6%.

    Over 120,000 (8.8%) of Hispanic and Latino Americans live in Hawaii. Mexican Americans number over 35,000 (2.6%); Puerto Ricans exceed 44,000 (3.2%).”

    This is kind of interesting:

    Japanese in Hawaii:

    “…Between 1869 and 1885 Japan barred emigration to Hawaii in fears that Japanese laborers would be degrading to the reputation of the Japanese race…

    …The first 153 Japanese immigrants arrived in Hawaii on February 8, 1885 as contract laborers for the sugarcane and pineapple plantations…”

  214. @Anon
    My Italian great-grandmother was designated an enemy alien, which humiliation involved carrying around a special ID and checking in once a month. She'd been in the US for thirty years when WW2 broke out and hadn't bothered to get her citizenship yet.

    She used to take food and clothes to Italian POWs at Camp Perry, Ohio, at the same time her own kid's ship was getting blown out of the water in the Mediterranean.

    Replies: @Tracy

    I have the same sort of story, kinda. My Grandfather was very worried about getting interned — even as his son, my Pops, was fighting the Japanese in the SWPA — and came thiiiiiiiis close to not making it out. He was an engineer-tail gunner on B-24s and, during one mission, the crew in front were trying to contact him, got no response, and checked on him only to find a huge hole in the plane right next to where his head was. Blew out the communications system and all that. But my family never bitched about any of it. Seems that Italians just aren’t big whiners.

    It’s kind of funny how Italians are portrayed in the media: either were “connected” sociopaths — or sort of “clownish”: “eh, we sing-a, we eat-a, we like-a the vino and la familigia — fuggetaboutit!”

  215. @eah

    Alvin C. York was a staunch Democrat. In East Tennessee that put him in the minority. During the 1940-41 period, York actively campaigned for military preparedness and against the America First movement. The Gary Cooper movie came out at this time.

    A York biographer observed it was Alvin C. York against Charles Lindbergh.

  216. @Anonymous
    @utu

    It's my understanding that a contributing factor to this mentality was a few early incidents of IJA soldiers appearing to surrender to US troops, only to produce a hidden grenade to kill both themselves and their would-be captors (or something of that nature). If true, I can understand the development of a "better safe than sorry" mentality among the hard-nosed Jarheads.

    Replies: @David In TN

    See E.B. Sledge’s book, “With the Old Breed.”

  217. @whorefinder
    @Steve Sailer:

    1980s saw a boom in Great Depression era-set films (i.e. the 1930s)---50 years before.

    -Annie (1982)--all about the Depression.
    -The Untouchables (1987)--1930-31
    -Raiders of the Lost Ark (1981)---set in 1936
    -Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom (1984)--set in 1935
    -A Christmas Story (1983)--- 1930s. No year is mentioned, but the child in the story is 9 years old, it's based on the life of Jean Sheperd, who was 9 years old in 1930/31, and the story makes no mention of WW2 or the Cold War, so its most likely 1930s.
    -Ironweed (1987)--Depression-era Albany
    -The Color Purple (1982)--1930s Georgia.
    -Once Upon a Time in America (1984)--although sprawling, movie centers on action depicted in 1932/33.
    -The Purple Rose of Cairo (1985)---set in 1935.


    Bonuses:

    Scarface (1983) , a movie remake of Scarface (1932), a roman a clef about Al Capone.
    -Batman (1989) which, though set in modern times, was almost completely Art Deco in design (1920s-30s style), but Gotham is portrayed as in economic trouble (i.e. 1930s)
    -Return to Oz (1985)--Sequel to Wizard of Oz (1939)
    -Gandhi (1982)--much of Gandhi's work in India in the 1930s depicted

    Replies: @a Newsreader

    A Christmas Story (1983)— 1930s. No year is mentioned, but the child in the story is 9 years old, it’s based on the life of Jean Sheperd, who was 9 years old in 1930/31, and the story makes no mention of WW2 or the Cold War, so its most likely 1930s.

    There are a couple pop culture references–The Wizard of Oz in particular–that make me think the setting is at least a decade later. Of course, it could just be an anachronism.

  218. @Whoever
    @Hibernian

    Interesting. I recall reading in From Here To Eternity, the James Jones novel about the pre-Pearl Harbor army, that protagonist Private Prewitt made $21 a month.
    Today an E-1 with less than two years service makes about $1,600 a month.

    Replies: @Whoever

    As a follow-up, minimum wage in 1942 was 30 cents an hour, so the $50 a month a draftee was paid was basically minimum wage. I found a story in a 1944 publication that stated the average draftee left a civilian job paying $300 a month.
    So, considering that living conditions in Camp Treestump, La., were pretty much on par with those in a minimum security prison–see Bill Mauldin’s early “Willy and Joe” stateside cartoons or Jean Shepherd’s yarns about his army days for a taste of the life–Steve’s original aside that millions of Americans also were “interned” along with west coast Japanese seems reasonable.

  219. @Gabriel M
    @Sam Haysom


    This is the kind of crap that makes some portions of the alt-right so worth ignoring.
     
    I'm not alt-right and though I'm not one of the more frequent commentators here, I'm probably one of the more frequent pro-Jew/Zionism ones. My point was really a pretty standard Moldbuggian (i.e. not alt-right at all) one and really quite obvious. Nazi Germany was evil and Imperial Japan was practically evil incarnate, but neither had any plans of world conquest. There are only two ideologies in the modern era who have had the outlandish goal of world conquest and both have been (and remain) entirely open about this goal: Democracy/Liberalism and Communism (as Snorlax correctly points out). The constant references made by partisans of these ideologies to other people wanting to conquer the world are obvious cases of projection.

    That doesn't make America worse than Nazi Germany though. There are a hell of a lot worse things than wanting to conquer the world, like Babi Yar.



    Svigor

    If true, no need to worry; the Japs can trot out all the Jews’ excuses. #1: it’s YT’s fault: Japs in America vote for the left in far greater numbers than Japs in Japan or Whites in America, because they’re so assimilated! #2: it’s YT’s fault: look what Whites did to Japs during WWII! It’s not as if there’s a Japanese country, with a Japanese majority, run for and by Japanese, where they can escape YT’s predations; they’re trapped here! #3: Japs have no agency. Despite making more money and being more educated than the White majority, Japs have no control over their actions (when the actions are being subjected to criticism, anyway; all positive Japanese achievements are still 100% their own doing).
     
    Has it occurred to you that if the Japanese, the Jews and pretty much every minority acts in the same way then the fundamental problem might have something to do with the nature of Democracy and not the nature of the Japanese/Jews/everyone?

    Replies: @dfordoom

    Nazi Germany was evil and Imperial Japan was practically evil incarnate, but neither had any plans of world conquest. There are only two ideologies in the modern era who have had the outlandish goal of world conquest and both have been (and remain) entirely open about this goal: Democracy/Liberalism and Communism (as Snorlax correctly points out). The constant references made by partisans of these ideologies to other people wanting to conquer the world are obvious cases of projection.

    Agreed.

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