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Ellen Pao Demands Tech CEOs Announce Their Strategies for Dealing with Incels
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  1. Anonymous[325] • Disclaimer says:

    Lots of your readers are incels.

    Read More
    • LOL: YetAnotherAnon
    • Replies: @Mr. Anon

    Lots of your readers are incels.
     
    Like you, for instance? An inflatable doll doesn't count as a real girlfriend.
    , @J.Ross
    Convincing documentation, bro.
    (If anything, an awful lot of the commenters are middle-aged and married.)
    , @Tiny Duck
    Very true

    I find it very interesting that incels tend to be right wingers


    That tells you something right there
    , @Hapalong Cassidy
    Or possibly one step up from that - white dudes married to Asian chicks.
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  2. Anon[302] • Disclaimer says:

    Comfort women. Worked for the Japanese back in the 40s.

    Read More
    • LOL: TomSchmidt
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    Comfort women. Worked for the Japanese back in the 40s.
     
    Now there's some thinking inside the box! Guys, iStever readers - hey, put down the slice of pizza, OK, guys, this is the kind of innovation I'm looking for, see this guy Anon #302? That's what I wanna see more of next week at the all-hands meeting - no wait, it won't be a regular all-hands meeting -there's gonna be the comfort women.

    Skippy, run this by HR. See if they have some resources for this project, and yank my chain mid-week. This should get TOP PRIORITY, 24 x 7 x 69 !

    (Hey, it's not that expensive compared to free-pizza Fridays, Ultimate-frisbee lunches, and flexible work hours during which I've seen some of you at the movie matinee at 2 in the afternoon.)

    Is Mrs Pao really concerned, as a Chinawoman, that some of our computer-tech workers are indeed turning Japanese? I really think so ... (think so, think so).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LR4XNqrqxrU
    , @Achmed E. Newman

    Comfort women. Worked for the Japanese back in the 40s.
     
    Now there's some thinking inside the box! Guys, iStever readers - hey, put down the slice of pizza, OK, guys, this is the kind of innovation I'm looking for, see this guy Anon #302? That's what I wanna see more of next week at the all-hands meeting - no wait, it won't be a regular all-hands meeting -there's gonna be the comfort women.

    Skippy, run this by HR. See if they have some resources for this project, and yank my chain mid-week. This should get TOP PRIORITY, 24 x 7 x 69 !

    (Hey, it's not that expensive compared to free-pizza Fridays, Ultimate-frisbee lunches, and flexible work hours during which I've seen some of you at the movie matinee at 2 in the afternoon.)

    Is Mrs Pao really concerned, as a Chinawoman, that some of our computer-tech workers are indeed turning Japanese? I really think so ... (think so, think so).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LR4XNqrqxrU
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  3. J.Ross says: • Website

    Chinese company hires “cheerleaders” to encourage young male IT staff

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3208366/Programming-cheerleaders-hired-motivate-Chinese-employees.html

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous

    Chinese company hires “cheerleaders” to encourage young male IT staff

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3208366/Programming-cheerleaders-hired-motivate-Chinese-employees.html
     
    Lol. I’d get NO work done with beautiful Chinese women in my work space flirting with me. I’d be like Charlie Rose and Tom Brokaw combined.

    'How about the female coders? Do they get some men?' Another said.
    'I bet that these girls would work better than the guys in this company, and without needing any cheerleading stuff for that. This is ridiculous,' a female user said.
     
    Yeah, bring in some athletic young Nordic men and watch this Chinese female coder change her tune.
    , @International Jew
    The pingpong part is clever. We have pingpong too (and foosball). Having one of these girls permanently occupying one end of the table means only half as many engineers, at a time, can be away from their desks playing pingpong.

    I'm gonna put in a word about us hiring three such girls, for the foosball table. Might be harder to find girls who can play foosball, but I could train them in a week or two.
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  4. El Dato says:

    It REALLY is 2018, is it?

    Read More
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  5. Anon[362] • Disclaimer says:

    This incel stuff smells like a giant hoax to me, or rather a sort of urban legend with perhaps a grain of truth at its core. “Shadowy online culure” means “Uh, no, we can’t direct you to sources in the form of websites or books.” All the sources are publicity-hungry types who want to be seen as counterculture experts.

    Also, Ellen Pao is a woman born woman, right?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Brutusale
    For the newbies, Steve has done some depth on Ellen Pao and her betrothed. I leave it as an exercise for the reader as to whether you believe a beauty like Ellen is in a love triangle of is just a beard for a gay black guy.

    https://www.jiveinthe415.com/2012/06/gossip-and-intrigue-in-new-york-times.html
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  6. El Dato says:

    Ellen Pao (born 1970) is an American investment partner at Kapor Capital, the Chief Diversity and Inclusion Officer at the Kapor Center for Social Impact, and co-founder of the diversity consulting non-profit organization Project Include. Previously she was the interim chief executive officer of social media technology company Reddit, an investment partner at Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers, a Board director at Flipboard, and a corporate attorney.

    I hear Elon Musk is looking for volunteers for a Mars trip.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Darwinian Arminian
    I'm all for that if it's a one-way trip.
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  7. Thomm says:

    This says more about Ellen Pao than anything else, unsurprisingly.

    1) She is married to a gay black man (who is also a crook, btw).
    2) She made one of the most obviously bogus harassment claims ever. A simple visit to the Kleiner Perkins website reveals that most of the women who work there are much better looking than her.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Eustace Tilley (not)
    "Poor nerds in incelibate state!"
    (Frustration's made Ellen irate.)
    She'd fix it...but how?
    Girly charm isn't Pao;
    It's so alien she can't relate.
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  8. Some classic responses:

    Read More
    • LOL: Roderick Spode
    • Replies: @Roderick Spode
    Better call Trex
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=8SwuoDtplfU
    , @wrd9
    It's working.

    http://www.returnofkings.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Fat-Mystery-PUA.jpg
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  9. Wh… what?

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    • Replies: @StAugustine
    Unless one of the lads from CH corrects me, I believe that's a photo of Mystery, one of the groundbreaker PUA (pickup artists) who wrote the treatise "Mystery Method" on the stages of attraction and his methodical way of picking up chicks. He is wearing a classic "peacocking" outfit, which has the design of being eye-catching and intriguing to women - one of his signature styles.
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  10. Ivy says:

    BDSM Dungeons, with dragons?

    Read More
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  11. @Scott Locklin
    Some classic responses:

    https://twitter.com/JustinWhang/status/992076196358840320

    Better call Trex

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Hyde is ok with ideas and premises for skits and physical comedy, but he's not talented enough as a writer to actually come up with good material to execute the ideas. He'd be a lot better if he had a decent writer and he focused on the ideas and acting.
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  12. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:

    Don’t say I didn’t tell you so and don’t stand there like a deer in in the headlights saying, “um . . . ”

    Jeez, Steve, get off TDC and finally write something about incels, although you’ve clearly lost the initiative.

    Or maybe it is back to bragging about the so-called “Sailer Strategy”. You’ll be doing that all the way to the grave by the looks of things these days.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Maciano
    I have to agree w/ this steve. You should definitely do some pieces on the PUA/MGTOW/MRA/Incel sphere. I'd love to hear your HBD take on it.

    The vlogger FaceandLMS is the most interesting incel intellectual/thinker out there.
    https://www.youtube.com/user/FACEandLMS

    FaceandLMS is much closer to HBD analysis than PUAs or even Roissy
    , @J.Ross
    Sure is funny that there is at least one guy, anonymous, who is really pushy, and really wants to have a opinion post to tie Steve to the strawman-of-the-moment.
    You know how they say you can tell a human intelligence specialist is in the room. He'll tell you.
    , @Anonymous
    He's 6'8" and lanky (if you catch my drift) and he's an MBA. He's probably been drowning in tail his whole life. I imagine he has trouble empathizing with the whole PUA, MRA, incel, etc. scene and thus isn't comfortable writing about it.
    , @Hapalong Cassidy
    In the past, at least, Steve has often name-dropped Roissy, which pretty much covers the area you are describing. In fact, it’s because of Steve that I discovered Roissy’s blog.
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  13. TWS says:

    The Onion? Please tell me it’s the onion.

    Read More
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  14. Fredrik says:

    Pao’s comment could be read in two ways. She either wants to help incels or not… I think we all know what she means.

    Just another piece of evidence that white loser males don’t deserve any protection. Apparently.

    Read More
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  15. CCZ says:

    What should be the diversity priority, rooting out “incels” or hiring blacks?

    The National Urban League is highlighting this new technology gap in its 2018 State of Black America report released Thursday, and pushing social media and technology companies to put in place safeguards and corporation solutions to make sure minorities don’t get left behind in the digital revolution.

    “C-suite executives of tech firms publicly espouse the gospel of racial and gender diversity and inclusion, but these spaces do not reflect our nation’s demographic diversity,” said Marc Morial, president of the National Urban League. “Only increased representation from top to bottom will drive corporate change that prioritizes equity.”

    Morial said that the latest Equal Employment Opportunity reports filed by Google, Facebook and Twitter showed that only 758, or 1.8 percent, of their combined workforce of 41,000 employees, were black. And their own research showed that in the majority of tech companies, fewer than five percent of the workforce is black, while at least half of the workforce is white.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Another German Reader
    Blacks, who are incels, should be given priority.

    But only after Transgender Incel Blacks.

    But first top priority should be given to Muslim Transgender Incel Blacks, who are victims of Harvey "The Harvester" Weinstein.
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  16. Whatever the solution is, i’m 100% sure Ellen Pao isn’t part of it.

    Read More
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  17. it’s pretty impressive how un-elected individuals can drive policy by tweet, or we act as if they can anyway

    Read More
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  18. Anon7 says:

    Ellen Pao needs a lesson in motivational dynamics:

    You just need to know how to motivate engineers, Ellen.

    Read More
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  19. Maciano says:
    @Anonymous
    Don't say I didn't tell you so and don't stand there like a deer in in the headlights saying, "um . . . "

    Jeez, Steve, get off TDC and finally write something about incels, although you've clearly lost the initiative.

    Or maybe it is back to bragging about the so-called "Sailer Strategy". You'll be doing that all the way to the grave by the looks of things these days.

    I have to agree w/ this steve. You should definitely do some pieces on the PUA/MGTOW/MRA/Incel sphere. I’d love to hear your HBD take on it.

    The vlogger FaceandLMS is the most interesting incel intellectual/thinker out there.

    https://www.youtube.com/user/FACEandLMS

    FaceandLMS is much closer to HBD analysis than PUAs or even Roissy

    Read More
    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    "You should definitely do some pieces on the PUA/MGTOW/MRA/Incel sphere."

    There are already people covering that, from Rational Male and Roissy to Dalrock. Whereas who else covers a range like Steve? Who laid down the Sailer Strategy?

    He's already made his contribution to theory with Sailer's Law Of Female Journalism.

    "The most heartfelt articles by female journalists tend to be demands that social values be overturned in order that, Come the Revolution, the journalist herself will be considered hotter-looking."
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  20. Anonymous[326] • Disclaimer says:

    Round trip to Vegas?

    Read More
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  21. I read this and thought “what’s an incel?”.

    I looked that up–”involuntarily celebate”. And thought: Ok, there are no doubt a good number of nerdy guys who don’t have real girlfriends or wives. This isn’t what i ordinarily think of as a company’s business, but i could see doing some company “mixers” and on-line introduction/dating stuff to try and help these guys under the umbrella of “healthy lifestyle” and “better worklife balance”
    corporate paternalism.

    Then it slowly dawned on me. That’s not what Ellen Pao wants. She wants companies to further harass–ultimately to fire–the unhappy, perhaps angry, male nerds.

    Basically the current–feminist–societal organization is a pretty crappy one for a significant fraction of the men (white and Asian) who have the mental skills to actually do the real productive labor which produces the comfy life for everyone. The feminist and diversity types solution to this … beat them and make their lives worse! Wouldn’t it make way more sense–economic and social–to fire all these women doing the entirely unproductive diversity b.s.?

    Our age is really one where the parasites are riding high–from Wall Street to Washington to the every corporate office strewn across the fruited plain, from sea to shining sea.

    This is the age of the parasite.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jonathan Silber
    She wants companies to further harass–ultimately to fire–the unhappy, perhaps angry, male nerds.

    No Country for Forty-Year-Old Virgins.
    , @Stan d Mute

    This is the age of the parasite.
     
    Very succinct.

    The parasite is the ultimate victim no? He wants only a tiny bit of what the successful host has, but that doggone host still tries to fight him off and keep what he has for himself.
    , @Thea
    Didn't the term Incels come from Reddit?

    If they just hire prostirures of color they can solve a lot of diversity issues at once.
    , @Rosamond Vincy
    Yep. Just lure the ThoughtCriminals out of hiding with promises to Help ...
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  22. Anonymous[400] • Disclaimer says:
    @Roderick Spode
    Better call Trex
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=8SwuoDtplfU

    Hyde is ok with ideas and premises for skits and physical comedy, but he’s not talented enough as a writer to actually come up with good material to execute the ideas. He’d be a lot better if he had a decent writer and he focused on the ideas and acting.

    Read More
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  23. Anonymous[326] • Disclaimer says:

    It has sometimes occurred to me, in moments of deep cynicism, that guys who don’t “get any” should organize as an official grievance group, and get recognized as having a “disability”. Then they can get institutional support, and perhaps funding that might help them solve the problem on an ongoing basis. Even white guys could get in the game if they’re overweight, but even a reasonably fit white guy could be “on the spectrum”. How is this not already a thing?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Obadiah Binks
    ...guys who don’t “get any” should organize as an official grievance group...


    Both sides normally assume that men, of course, like polygamy. So, they simply clash over whether polygamy is in the best interests of wives. In reality, however, polygamy victimizes men. You never hear about it because few men want to claim this particular kind of victimhood: that of the sexual rejectee.

    I have been looking in vain for 20 years for an article about polygamy that mentioned that for one man to take a second wife means, in the normal course of things, that another man will get no wife at all.

    I have come to believe that this blind spot stems from it being virtually impossible for a man to imagine himself as one of the 149 losers, rather than the one big winner. He might prefer one wife to 150, but his male ego can't allow him to identify with all the men who end up rejected and alone. This psychological quirk creates a reality distortion field in the heads of men.

     

    Steve Sailer, "The Problem with Polygamy"
    , @AnotherGuessModel
    The Dutch government covers the bill for a certain amount of visits to sex workers by mentally and physically disabled citizens.
    , @Kratoklastes

    Even white guys could get in the game if they’re overweight, but even a reasonably fit white guy could be “on the spectrum”. How is this not already a thing?
     
    Even the most socially-disconnected, nerd-necked basement-dwelling neckbeard has far too much self-awareness to be caught dead joining a "social-justice" movement.

    So the reason it's not a thing is not a lack of acceptance by the SJW hierarchy (who, let's face it, will accept any self-identified 'damaged' group, so long as they make a full and open confession)... it'll never be a thing because heterosexual males have far too much spine to be prepared to humiliate themselves by publicly identifying with victimhood qua their maleness or the amount of 'tang they're (not) getting.

    The term 'incel' is so Soviet in its affectation, that I am certain it was conjured up by some adjunct professor of gender studies at a community college somewhere in California (or perhaps Portland).
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  24. Anonymous[326] • Disclaimer says:

    Mail order brides?
    Latin/Asian: fully paid.
    Russian: 20% copay (no refund in event of divorce)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Williams
    Ha ha ha. The Russkie chicks are out-of-network.

    But I'd be wary about marrying the broad Kaiser Permanente is willing to pay for...

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  25. prosa123 says: • Website

    If anything, the tech industry benefits from all the incel employees. Most are resigned to their fate and they’re not distracted by dating and relationship issues.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anony-mouse
    No sex of any kind leads to a lot of distractions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Contest
    , @Silva
    That's a factor, but I think the balance is on the other side: depression is likely both cause and consequence to incelacy, and some of those guys have all the intellect needed, but can't hold the jobs because getting off the bed is hard (besides lower productivity from those who do show up).
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  26. Mr. Anon says:
    @Anonymous
    Lots of your readers are incels.

    Lots of your readers are incels.

    Like you, for instance? An inflatable doll doesn’t count as a real girlfriend.

    Read More
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  27. @prosa123
    If anything, the tech industry benefits from all the incel employees. Most are resigned to their fate and they're not distracted by dating and relationship issues.

    No sex of any kind leads to a lot of distractions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Contest

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jim Christian
    They jerk themselves a soda just like everyone else, what bizz is it of Ellen Pao? She's an incel herself, most ugly women (and most obesity-cases as well) don't get laid. For the celibate men, that's why they have porn and hookers and that's why they're working on AI-Sex bots. Feminists are terrified of those, what would happen to the divorce-industry as child-support collection service if the nerdy men never married? How would women steal the resources of ex-husbands if the men never step up to marry old slags? Pao is a moron that would never have been heard from if our society was a meritocracy. Amazing the loads on our system the past 60 years as we moved to an EEOC system of picking winners and losers at the expense of merit. Amazing too that it hasn't collapsed. I suppose we're getting there.
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  28. Mr. Anon says:

    If all women looked like Ellen Pao, those guys woudn’t be incels. They would be volcels.

    Read More
    • LOL: Yan Shen, Escher, songbird
    • Replies: @Hunsdon
    I came here to say that, but Mr. Anon beat me to it.
    , @Pericles
    Now you've made me a lolcel.
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  29. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Anonymous
    Lots of your readers are incels.

    Convincing documentation, bro.
    (If anything, an awful lot of the commenters are middle-aged and married.)

    Read More
    • Replies: @AndrewR
    Marriage and celibacy not only aren't mutually exclusive, they're probably correlative.
    , @Mr. Blank
    That’s my take, too. A lot of Steve’s readers seem like married middle-aged white guys worried about the world their kids are going to inhabit. (Full disclosure: This describes me.)

    Incels and incel-heavy sites are very angry. Sailer writes about golf course architecture, which doesn’t strike me as a subject of much interest to angry young men who can’t get laid.

    The “your readers are incels lol” jab confuses cultural impotence with social and physical impotence.

    I’m no expert, though. For the definitive take on Steve’s readers, we should consult Professor Tiny Duck. :)
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  30. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Anonymous
    Don't say I didn't tell you so and don't stand there like a deer in in the headlights saying, "um . . . "

    Jeez, Steve, get off TDC and finally write something about incels, although you've clearly lost the initiative.

    Or maybe it is back to bragging about the so-called "Sailer Strategy". You'll be doing that all the way to the grave by the looks of things these days.

    Sure is funny that there is at least one guy, anonymous, who is really pushy, and really wants to have a opinion post to tie Steve to the strawman-of-the-moment.
    You know how they say you can tell a human intelligence specialist is in the room. He’ll tell you.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    I know the old-fashioned jokes about the lack of sex in marriage but can you really tie a long-term happily married man to the 'involuntary celibate' community?
    , @carol
    Didn't Steve start all this brouhaha in the first place by NOTICING?
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  31. jim jones says:

    Companies need to hire gigolos to keep the women happy

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  32. Tyrion 2 says:

    They should remake 40 Year Old Virgin and rather than being quite a sweet and affecting if degenerate comedy that sympathised with the main character and his struggles, it could be a horror story where the eponymous virgin is a creepy, malevolent freak who eventually gets hunted down by the chick from The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo, as played by Ellen Pao.

    Amd while doing that they could make a movie where the bad guy is homeless, or disabled or just the Elephant Man. Then again, maybe Ellen really is implying that the tech company should hire some prostitutes – obviously that is what this incel lot should do for themselves. It is the traditional remedy for acute male sexual anxiety.

    Read More
    • Replies: @WHAT
    Traditional remedy is in, erm, our hands!
    Hiring a prostitute still has the accompanying performance anxiety and is not always legally safe. Wouldn't a doughy nerd just invite swindling attempts, at the very least?
    , @dwb
    This movie was already made. Did you miss "One Hour Photo?"
    , @ThreeCranes
    "maybe Ellen really is implying that the tech company should hire some prostitutes"

    Maybe Ellen should offer herself up on the altar of inclusion. After all, if that woman were truly interested in being a social worker, then she would voluntarily give herself whole heartedly to any guy out there who isn't getting or can't get laid. Doing that would do more good and relieve more suffering than all the diversity and inclusion crap she's ever written or lectured about.

    How bout it Ellen?

    Time to put out or shut up.

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  33. @anony-mouse
    No sex of any kind leads to a lot of distractions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Contest

    They jerk themselves a soda just like everyone else, what bizz is it of Ellen Pao? She’s an incel herself, most ugly women (and most obesity-cases as well) don’t get laid. For the celibate men, that’s why they have porn and hookers and that’s why they’re working on AI-Sex bots. Feminists are terrified of those, what would happen to the divorce-industry as child-support collection service if the nerdy men never married? How would women steal the resources of ex-husbands if the men never step up to marry old slags? Pao is a moron that would never have been heard from if our society was a meritocracy. Amazing the loads on our system the past 60 years as we moved to an EEOC system of picking winners and losers at the expense of merit. Amazing too that it hasn’t collapsed. I suppose we’re getting there.

    Read More
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  34. Veracitor says:

    Offer them Pao! I mean Pie! Apple Pie! Google Pie! Whatever! Something sweet and easily spooned, to comfort them.

    Read More
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  35. @Roderick Spode
    Wh... what?

    Unless one of the lads from CH corrects me, I believe that’s a photo of Mystery, one of the groundbreaker PUA (pickup artists) who wrote the treatise “Mystery Method” on the stages of attraction and his methodical way of picking up chicks. He is wearing a classic “peacocking” outfit, which has the design of being eye-catching and intriguing to women – one of his signature styles.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    Seriously? He looks like a pimp, so who would go for that besides the kind of females who work for pimps?
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  36. Rosie says:
    Read More
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  37. Tyrion 2 says:
    @J.Ross
    Sure is funny that there is at least one guy, anonymous, who is really pushy, and really wants to have a opinion post to tie Steve to the strawman-of-the-moment.
    You know how they say you can tell a human intelligence specialist is in the room. He'll tell you.

    I know the old-fashioned jokes about the lack of sex in marriage but can you really tie a long-term happily married man to the ‘involuntary celibate’ community?

    Read More
    • Replies: @J.Ross
    I think you have misread me, and also I don't think that such a community exists.
    But Borsht Belt jokes say yes.
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  38. Anonymous[400] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    Don't say I didn't tell you so and don't stand there like a deer in in the headlights saying, "um . . . "

    Jeez, Steve, get off TDC and finally write something about incels, although you've clearly lost the initiative.

    Or maybe it is back to bragging about the so-called "Sailer Strategy". You'll be doing that all the way to the grave by the looks of things these days.

    He’s 6’8″ and lanky (if you catch my drift) and he’s an MBA. He’s probably been drowning in tail his whole life. I imagine he has trouble empathizing with the whole PUA, MRA, incel, etc. scene and thus isn’t comfortable writing about it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AndrewR
    Steve "Slut-Slayer" Sailer
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  39. WHAT says:
    @Tyrion 2
    They should remake 40 Year Old Virgin and rather than being quite a sweet and affecting if degenerate comedy that sympathised with the main character and his struggles, it could be a horror story where the eponymous virgin is a creepy, malevolent freak who eventually gets hunted down by the chick from The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo, as played by Ellen Pao.

    Amd while doing that they could make a movie where the bad guy is homeless, or disabled or just the Elephant Man. Then again, maybe Ellen really is implying that the tech company should hire some prostitutes - obviously that is what this incel lot should do for themselves. It is the traditional remedy for acute male sexual anxiety.

    Traditional remedy is in, erm, our hands!
    Hiring a prostitute still has the accompanying performance anxiety and is not always legally safe. Wouldn’t a doughy nerd just invite swindling attempts, at the very least?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Tyrion 2

    Hiring a prostitute still has the accompanying performance anxiety
     
    I assume most prostitutes would find that sweet. It can only be preferable to the attitude their other customers likely show.

    Also, if you're getting performance anxiety with a girl who is paid to have sex with you and has probably seen it all then your problems run deep. Either tell her or have a few drinks first.

    not always legally safe
     
    It is perfectly legal in the UK. The reason is not because of 'progressive' reasons but simply because it is all but impossible to prove that your sexual transaction was for money.

    In all places where sex between strangers is not illegal, prostitution is de facto legal. (The line between the two is very blurry and in some countries it even may depend how the girl feels the next morning.)

    Wouldn’t a doughy nerd just invite swindling attempts, at the very least
     
    How are they going to get swindled? I assume the doughy nerd knows what sexual intercourse is and therefore if the prostitute has done her job?

    The biggest issue is that the doughy nerd is likely to fall in love with the prostitute, which is pitiful.

    I would also like to say that I neither use nor advocate visiting prostitutes. It is a desperate option when just getting a grip should be first. The only other alternative if you get to this stage is arranged marriage. There are companies that will do this for you too.
    , @L Woods
    Legalized prostitution would solve the incel problem quickly and easily. The supposed epidemic of sexual misconduct afflicting the nation would, insofar as it actually exists, diminish dramatically. But of course we can't have that, because muh human trafficking (never mind that the most effective way to end such a phenomenon would be to bring it above board) and because the peons must be made to suffer compliantly as a (sick) matter of principle. The petty, vicious female malice towards low status men and the price fixing machinations of the pussy cartel trump all.
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  40. Voigt-Kampff test by any other name would retire as sweetly. Pow! Pao!

    Read More
    • LOL: BenKenobi
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  41. Dave Pinsen says: • Website

    Read More
    • LOL: AnotherDad
    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    Lol! Yeah, I was trying to come up with something like this.

    "Gee I dunno, Ellen, what are you proposing?"

    "There are better ways to go carousel-riding, Ellen."

    Etc.

    But you nailed it. Four words. Boom. Done.
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  42. Rosie says:

    Basically the current–feminist–societal organization is a pretty crappy one for a significant fraction of the men (white and Asian) who have the mental skills to actually do the real productive labor which produces the comfy life for everyone.

    Like Grouch Marx, they won’t join a club that will have them as a member. They have chosen their lot. Why settle for women who are in their league when they’ve got porn?

    BTW, women aren’t prizes to be handed out to men for good behavior.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rosie
    Come to think of it, the MGTOWs and other thot-screechers constantly call women "whores," when in fact the substance of their real complaint is that we are not whores. Since our only real worth is our ability to provide sexual services, we should be forced to do that in order to earn our keep.

    If we assume that feminism is indeed responsible for the "incel" plight, then that would imply that in previous eras, women would have married these men for a meal ticket. One could argue that this was not prostitution, because it came along with a promise of lifetime support. In my view, that doesn't mean transactional marriage wasn't prostitution, but only that women were fairly compensated for their services. As I understand it, the MGTOWs want to not only force women into prostitution going forward, but this without restoring the traditional right of lifetime support. We'd be not just whores, but two-bit streetwalkers.

    Of course, this arrangement actually would create incels, because serial monogamy is just polygamy by another name. If girls understand that they are at-will prostitutes, of course they are going to try to get the best they can, while they can, even if that means stealing someone else's husband.

    , @Dave Pinsen

    BTW, women aren’t prizes to be handed out to men for good behavior.
     
    True. They are prizes to be won by being charismatic and either having or feigning high status, and good behavior has little to do with that.
    , @J.Ross

    Women aren’t prizes to be handed out to men for good behavior.
     
    Of course not -- they hand themselves out to the top five per cent of guys.
    , @Anonymous
    Ridiculous. Of course they are. And high status attractive men are prizes given to attractive women for chaste and respectable behaviour.

    You can't run a stable society unless you control the rewards, whether that be the corner office, the big house or the attractive spouse. If you let the badly behaved win those prizes, you get dystopia.
    , @anon
    They have chosen their lot. Why settle for women who are in their league when they’ve got porn?

    What if the women in their league would rather be with no one at all than with some socially-awkward weirdo who has to work all the time?

    Plus, you're forgetting how Silicon Valley works. The people who work there are mostly men, and they move there from all over the world to take a job there. It's sort of like a Gold Rush camp, where it's a bunch of men going to a place without that many women. So it's entirely possible that there really just aren't enough women to go around in their social circle.

    You could argue that they could always go out with some of the townie types who were already in the area, and maybe they could. But then THOSE guys wouldn't have enough women to go around.

    It's easy to mock, but it seems like a legitimate problem. The Gold Rush solved it with prostitutes, but I doubt that would fly today.

    , @Whiskey
    Agreed and male protection from other male violence and male resources are not prizes to be handed out to women either. See India on how that works.

    More proof of needed that women are the eternal and natural enemy of the best male. Lord of The Flies might create sexy violent alphas but women eventually get it too. See that poor woman who died in India after a brutal assault on the bus.

    Middle class society and safety for women requires majority White population getting their way not ghetto way and having an interest including a woman. Otherwise they won't risk it all to defend some random woman.

    Want White knights? Almost all men have to get some. No man is going to risk death as an incel for some other dudes random woman.

    Like I said you won't like Lord of the Flies.
    , @Forbes
    While women chose, and men are chosen, the dilemma (ticking clock) remains for women when all the good men are taken...because you waited to have some fun and ride the carousel...
    , @mobi

    BTW, women aren’t prizes to be handed out to men for good behavior.
     
    Only true in a minority of times and places.
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  43. BB753 says:

    Is Ellen Pao volunteering to end the forced celibacy of tech workers? It’s not like her husband is paying her any attention..

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  44. CMC says:

    Whether she tweeted this from a boring habit of looking for ways to take shots at CEO’s or some natural feminine concern for the wretched or whatever, maybe it’s deeper than it looks.

    Didn’t people used to talk about paying workers a living wage, i.e. enough for the man to raise a family?

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  45. Anonymous[400] • Disclaimer says:

    Isn’t this what’s called a “shit test”? The evo psych translation of Pao’s tweet from female hind brain speak is something like, “Hey alpha males, apparently there are a bunch of disgruntled beta males lurking around right under your noses, and they might go postal and take one of you out and permanently remove you from alpha status. If you really are alpha and man enough, why don’t you smack down these betas and show them who’s boss? And if you can’t, well then that just means you really aren’t alphas are you, so get the hell out of the way and make way for the real alphas.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Pericles
    Except Pao's schtick has been and remains pissing on the deplorable tech workers from great height, preferrably for cash. So please do not consider your proposal to be her genuine motivation.
    , @Brutusale
    As has already been shown, tech workers are more at risk from those whom their masters arbitrarily demonetize.
    , @anon
    I don't think you should overlook the possibility that Ellen Pao is just really dumb, and hasn't thought her comment through at all.

    It's entirely possible that she just skimmed an article about "incels", and found out that they're sort of the problem of the moment, and felt as though she just had to say something about it. Apparently, she thinks there are people out there who are just dying for the wisdom of Ellen Pao.

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  46. Rosie says:
    @Rosie

    Basically the current–feminist–societal organization is a pretty crappy one for a significant fraction of the men (white and Asian) who have the mental skills to actually do the real productive labor which produces the comfy life for everyone.
     
    Like Grouch Marx, they won't join a club that will have them as a member. They have chosen their lot. Why settle for women who are in their league when they've got porn?

    BTW, women aren't prizes to be handed out to men for good behavior.

    Come to think of it, the MGTOWs and other thot-screechers constantly call women “whores,” when in fact the substance of their real complaint is that we are not whores. Since our only real worth is our ability to provide sexual services, we should be forced to do that in order to earn our keep.

    If we assume that feminism is indeed responsible for the “incel” plight, then that would imply that in previous eras, women would have married these men for a meal ticket. One could argue that this was not prostitution, because it came along with a promise of lifetime support. In my view, that doesn’t mean transactional marriage wasn’t prostitution, but only that women were fairly compensated for their services. As I understand it, the MGTOWs want to not only force women into prostitution going forward, but this without restoring the traditional right of lifetime support. We’d be not just whores, but two-bit streetwalkers.

    Of course, this arrangement actually would create incels, because serial monogamy is just polygamy by another name. If girls understand that they are at-will prostitutes, of course they are going to try to get the best they can, while they can, even if that means stealing someone else’s husband.

    Read More
    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    I imagine the incel plight is more that "the sexual revolution" plus female hypergamy means that all the women are after the top 20% of the men - great for those men, not so good for the 80%.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20170316015704/https://theblog.okcupid.com/your-looks-and-your-inbox-8715c0f1561e?gi=40fd8369528

    "As you can see from the gray line, women rate an incredible 80% of guys as worse-looking than medium. Very harsh. "

    Looking at the graph, it's worse than that. On a scale of 0 to 5, women rate 26% of men as 0 and 31% as 1. So that's 57% in the bottom two 'grades' or bottom 1/3 (2 out of 6 categories).
    , @Pericles
    In the vernacular, a slut screws anyone, a whore screws anyone but me.

    Feminism made the point that marriage is prostitution a long time ago. Modern society has indeed made it largely about money, so I guess they made themselves right.
    , @Thea
    I think you are reading them all wrong. It's more about social rejection and the rudeness and hostility than sex .

    Hot prostitutes will sleep with them. But other Attractive women mock them. Teaching girls humility, decency and modesty would go a long way to ending the frustration.

    , @Dissident

    the MGTOWs and other thot-screechers constantly call women “whores,” when in fact the substance of their real complaint is that we are not whores.
     
    Yes, I've noted that for some time. In a thread from not long ago, a commenter wrote something to the effect of,
    A man wants a good girl who will be bad for him only. A woman wants a bad boy who will be good for her only.

    In a similar vein, consider how many people use references to certain sex acts as degrading insults, yet apparently see no contradiction in expecting someone who they claim to be their true love to perform those very same acts.
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  47. @Maciano
    I have to agree w/ this steve. You should definitely do some pieces on the PUA/MGTOW/MRA/Incel sphere. I'd love to hear your HBD take on it.

    The vlogger FaceandLMS is the most interesting incel intellectual/thinker out there.
    https://www.youtube.com/user/FACEandLMS

    FaceandLMS is much closer to HBD analysis than PUAs or even Roissy

    “You should definitely do some pieces on the PUA/MGTOW/MRA/Incel sphere.”

    There are already people covering that, from Rational Male and Roissy to Dalrock. Whereas who else covers a range like Steve? Who laid down the Sailer Strategy?

    He’s already made his contribution to theory with Sailer’s Law Of Female Journalism.

    “The most heartfelt articles by female journalists tend to be demands that social values be overturned in order that, Come the Revolution, the journalist herself will be considered hotter-looking.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Maciano
    Oh, I agree. I don't mean the issues of the sphere itself. I think there should be an HBD take on the sphere an sich. You disagree?

    Let's face it, these male activist communities often theorize without much data. They need some empiricism.

    PS I'm not telling Steve to do anything, I'd just be interested in Steve's take on it. He's good at putting these things in a wider perspective without be unfair.
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  48. Tyrion 2 says:
    @WHAT
    Traditional remedy is in, erm, our hands!
    Hiring a prostitute still has the accompanying performance anxiety and is not always legally safe. Wouldn't a doughy nerd just invite swindling attempts, at the very least?

    Hiring a prostitute still has the accompanying performance anxiety

    I assume most prostitutes would find that sweet. It can only be preferable to the attitude their other customers likely show.

    Also, if you’re getting performance anxiety with a girl who is paid to have sex with you and has probably seen it all then your problems run deep. Either tell her or have a few drinks first.

    not always legally safe

    It is perfectly legal in the UK. The reason is not because of ‘progressive’ reasons but simply because it is all but impossible to prove that your sexual transaction was for money.

    In all places where sex between strangers is not illegal, prostitution is de facto legal. (The line between the two is very blurry and in some countries it even may depend how the girl feels the next morning.)

    Wouldn’t a doughy nerd just invite swindling attempts, at the very least

    How are they going to get swindled? I assume the doughy nerd knows what sexual intercourse is and therefore if the prostitute has done her job?

    The biggest issue is that the doughy nerd is likely to fall in love with the prostitute, which is pitiful.

    I would also like to say that I neither use nor advocate visiting prostitutes. It is a desperate option when just getting a grip should be first. The only other alternative if you get to this stage is arranged marriage. There are companies that will do this for you too.

    Read More
    • Replies: @WHAT
    You assume wrong. A whore that has "seen it all" will find a client that has a problem even getting it up pitiful and annoying, with the accompanying intercourse quality, if it even happens. Not everybody can do the deed after a couple of something strong as well.

    Cue even more depression for the nerd either way.
    , @fish2
    I've occasionally contemplated this in the "what would I do as an absolute dictator of the United States?" moments. But as other commentators have pointed out and as I know from experience, the stereotypical incel (there are several types, but let's go with the most common image of the Aspergery tech geek) isn't inclined to casual sex, for reasons ranging from personality to their typical activities of interest. I'm not saying organized, legal, and strictly voluntary prostitution couldn't be useful in other ways, mind, but this wouldn't be the cure-all for this specific issue. It certainly doesn't help that they are constantly told to have empathy with those complaining about getting too much attention when they themselves struggle to get any.

    (Whoever said courtship was easy? I think American pop culture's hyper-obsession, almost high-school like, with relationships seriously skews both gender's perceptions of what is normal.)

    One thing I'd recommend to STEM type geeks is to check out the more female heavy doctoral departments-especially things like biology or chemical engineering, but also linguistics, history, anything that takes serious intellectual effort-where they can find more women who share, among other things, their scientific curiosity. If they are fellow introverts, they share romantic tastes, if they are an extrovert, they might end up creating a weird "let's improve each other" exotic symmetry.

    , @njguy73

    I assume most prostitutes would find that sweet.
     
    Yeah, 'cause she's got a heart of gold (eyeroll)
    , @Daniel Chieh

    I would also like to say that I neither use nor advocate visiting prostitutes. It is a desperate option when just getting a grip should be first.
     
    Disclaimer duly noted.
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  49. @Rosie
    Come to think of it, the MGTOWs and other thot-screechers constantly call women "whores," when in fact the substance of their real complaint is that we are not whores. Since our only real worth is our ability to provide sexual services, we should be forced to do that in order to earn our keep.

    If we assume that feminism is indeed responsible for the "incel" plight, then that would imply that in previous eras, women would have married these men for a meal ticket. One could argue that this was not prostitution, because it came along with a promise of lifetime support. In my view, that doesn't mean transactional marriage wasn't prostitution, but only that women were fairly compensated for their services. As I understand it, the MGTOWs want to not only force women into prostitution going forward, but this without restoring the traditional right of lifetime support. We'd be not just whores, but two-bit streetwalkers.

    Of course, this arrangement actually would create incels, because serial monogamy is just polygamy by another name. If girls understand that they are at-will prostitutes, of course they are going to try to get the best they can, while they can, even if that means stealing someone else's husband.

    I imagine the incel plight is more that “the sexual revolution” plus female hypergamy means that all the women are after the top 20% of the men – great for those men, not so good for the 80%.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20170316015704/https://theblog.okcupid.com/your-looks-and-your-inbox-8715c0f1561e?gi=40fd8369528

    “As you can see from the gray line, women rate an incredible 80% of guys as worse-looking than medium. Very harsh. “

    Looking at the graph, it’s worse than that. On a scale of 0 to 5, women rate 26% of men as 0 and 31% as 1. So that’s 57% in the bottom two ‘grades’ or bottom 1/3 (2 out of 6 categories).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rosie

    I imagine the incel plight is more that “the sexual revolution” plus female hypergamy means that all the women are after the top 20% of the men – great for those men, not so good for the 80%.
     
    Evidently, you didn't read the rest of the article. Female hypergamy is a hoax that won't die, because it makes incels feel better about themselves. From the article:

    When it comes down to actually choosing targets, men choose the modelesque. Someone like roomtodance above gets nearly 5 times as many messages as a typical woman and 28 times as many messages as a woman at the low end of our curve. Site-wide, two-thirds of male messages go to the best-looking third of women. So basically, guys are fighting each other 2-for-1 for the absolute best-rated females, while plenty of potentially charming, even cute, girls go unwritten.

    The medical term for this is male pattern madness.

    ***

    As you can see from the gray line, women rate an incredible 80% of guys as worse-looking than medium. Very harsh. On the other hand, when it comes to actual messaging, women shift their expectations only just slightly ahead of the curve, which is a healthier pattern than guys’ pursuing the all-but-unattainable. But with the basic ratings so out-of-whack, the two curves together suggest some strange possibilities for the female thought process, the most salient of which is that the average-looking woman has convinced herself that the vast majority of males aren’t good enough for her, but she then goes right out and messages them anyway.
     

    In fact, women are not messaging men she thinks are not good enough for her. She is messaging men she finds attractive, who are different from men other women find attractive. There is a lack of consensus among women on who are the most attractive males. That is why men believe that competition for mates is especially acute. They are ignoring all but the most attractive.

    Here is the source of the problem.

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090626153511.htm

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  50. Does Ms. Pao want the world to return to 50s when men with families were considered more responsible and given preference over unmarried men?

    Read More
    • Replies: @stillCARealist
    sounds good to me.

    Also men with neat clothing, short hair, and clean-shaven. No walking tattoo parlors or jewelry stores.
    , @Rosamond Vincy
    Maybe she doesn't, but I do. That custom made for more stable families and communities. My Dad told me how happy one employer was when he got married and the kids started arriving. It cost time and money to train replacements. A family meant Dad was more likely to stick around for the stable pay and benefits, and they increased both to make staying more attractive.

    In addition to helping young families, such a policy provides an incentive NOT to have single parent families, usually with absent father, or both parents unemployed, claiming separate residences, and getting benefits which will be cut if it turns out daddy IS living there after all.

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  51. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Rosie

    Basically the current–feminist–societal organization is a pretty crappy one for a significant fraction of the men (white and Asian) who have the mental skills to actually do the real productive labor which produces the comfy life for everyone.
     
    Like Grouch Marx, they won't join a club that will have them as a member. They have chosen their lot. Why settle for women who are in their league when they've got porn?

    BTW, women aren't prizes to be handed out to men for good behavior.

    BTW, women aren’t prizes to be handed out to men for good behavior.

    True. They are prizes to be won by being charismatic and either having or feigning high status, and good behavior has little to do with that.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rosie

    True. They are prizes to be won by being charismatic and either having or feigning high status, and good behavior has little to do with that.
     
    This is a common attitude among a set people of both sexes. They only notice certain types, and then conclude that there are no other types.
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  52. I look forward to Virginity Testing 2.0

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  53. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Tyrion 2
    I know the old-fashioned jokes about the lack of sex in marriage but can you really tie a long-term happily married man to the 'involuntary celibate' community?

    I think you have misread me, and also I don’t think that such a community exists.
    But Borsht Belt jokes say yes.

    Read More
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  54. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Rosie

    Basically the current–feminist–societal organization is a pretty crappy one for a significant fraction of the men (white and Asian) who have the mental skills to actually do the real productive labor which produces the comfy life for everyone.
     
    Like Grouch Marx, they won't join a club that will have them as a member. They have chosen their lot. Why settle for women who are in their league when they've got porn?

    BTW, women aren't prizes to be handed out to men for good behavior.

    Women aren’t prizes to be handed out to men for good behavior.

    Of course not — they hand themselves out to the top five per cent of guys.

    Read More
    • Agree: TheBoom
    • Replies: @gunner29

    Of course not — they hand themselves out to the top five per cent of guys.
     
    That is exactly what Trump was referring to; it's not that he could grab them by the pussy, they want him to!

    Of course the lying media, lied about it....
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  55. “incel” == guy who can’t get any, right?

    So big corporations’ HR departments should interrogate all male employees about whether they are getting any, and subject those who are not to hostile scrutiny if not outright dismissal.

    And of course all new hires must not be guys who are not getting any.

    It’s as if making “incels” snap and turn to terrorism were Ellen Pao’s pet project.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    Is this the new "don't ask, don't tell"?
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  56. Escher says:

    CEOs of big tech companies: You almost certainly have incels as employees. What are you going to do about it?

    Install metal detectors at the office entrances?

    Read More
    • Replies: @dwb
    Hint:

    unless the guy in question is pulling a David St Hubbins, the metal detector is not going to catch him.
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  57. Mr. Blank says:

    Help me out here. I can’t figure out how to interpret her Tweet.

    There are two ways to read it, and both are completely insane.

    Read More
    • Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic
    Clearly, Ellen Pao is offering to sleep with incels.
    , @John Pepple
    I take it she is worried because of the incel in Toronto who killed some people recently. Based on that one example, she concludes that incels are dangerous, and she is worried that the incels in tech companies will kill the other employees. Presumably, she wants them fired before they do this.
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  58. Had to look up incel. Then had to look up Ellen Pao. Now there are two more things I don’t care about.

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  59. @CCZ
    What should be the diversity priority, rooting out "incels" or hiring blacks?

    The National Urban League is highlighting this new technology gap in its 2018 State of Black America report released Thursday, and pushing social media and technology companies to put in place safeguards and corporation solutions to make sure minorities don’t get left behind in the digital revolution.

    “C-suite executives of tech firms publicly espouse the gospel of racial and gender diversity and inclusion, but these spaces do not reflect our nation’s demographic diversity,” said Marc Morial, president of the National Urban League. “Only increased representation from top to bottom will drive corporate change that prioritizes equity.”

    Morial said that the latest Equal Employment Opportunity reports filed by Google, Facebook and Twitter showed that only 758, or 1.8 percent, of their combined workforce of 41,000 employees, were black. And their own research showed that in the majority of tech companies, fewer than five percent of the workforce is black, while at least half of the workforce is white.
     

    Blacks, who are incels, should be given priority.

    But only after Transgender Incel Blacks.

    But first top priority should be given to Muslim Transgender Incel Blacks, who are victims of Harvey “The Harvester” Weinstein.

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    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    We have a BINGO!
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  60. @Mr. Blank
    Help me out here. I can’t figure out how to interpret her Tweet.

    There are two ways to read it, and both are completely insane.

    Clearly, Ellen Pao is offering to sleep with incels.

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  61. Tiny Duck says:
    @Anonymous
    Lots of your readers are incels.

    Very true

    I find it very interesting that incels tend to be right wingers

    That tells you something right there

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    • Replies: @Oswald Spengler
    I'm sure you're quite the lady killer in real life, Tiny. And by lady killer, I mean in the Jame Gumb "It puts the lotion on its skin" sense.
    , @L Woods
    Sorry Tiny -- there's a newer, shinier and more irritating troll in town. Here's a pity reply for you.
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  62. Hunsdon says:
    @Mr. Anon
    If all women looked like Ellen Pao, those guys woudn't be incels. They would be volcels.

    I came here to say that, but Mr. Anon beat me to it.

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    • Replies: @stillCARealist
    I'm afraid too many of these poor men that the Pao person despises are Indians. Is it okay to insult Indians? They're supposed to remain chaste until marriage, and there aren't anywhere near enough Indian women around for them to marry. Even in India. There was just a long article published in a major rag about the sex imbalance in China and India. All these guys in their 20's and 30's who can't even find a date, let alone a wife. Pao should be looking to help them.
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  63. @Thomm
    This says more about Ellen Pao than anything else, unsurprisingly.

    1) She is married to a gay black man (who is also a crook, btw).
    2) She made one of the most obviously bogus harassment claims ever. A simple visit to the Kleiner Perkins website reveals that most of the women who work there are much better looking than her.

    “Poor nerds in incelibate state!”
    (Frustration’s made Ellen irate.)
    She’d fix it…but how?
    Girly charm isn’t Pao;
    It’s so alien she can’t relate.

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  64. Pericles says:
    @Anonymous
    Isn't this what's called a "shit test"? The evo psych translation of Pao's tweet from female hind brain speak is something like, "Hey alpha males, apparently there are a bunch of disgruntled beta males lurking around right under your noses, and they might go postal and take one of you out and permanently remove you from alpha status. If you really are alpha and man enough, why don't you smack down these betas and show them who's boss? And if you can't, well then that just means you really aren't alphas are you, so get the hell out of the way and make way for the real alphas."

    Except Pao’s schtick has been and remains pissing on the deplorable tech workers from great height, preferrably for cash. So please do not consider your proposal to be her genuine motivation.

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  65. Pericles says:
    @Mr. Anon
    If all women looked like Ellen Pao, those guys woudn't be incels. They would be volcels.

    Now you’ve made me a lolcel.

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  66. Pericles says:
    @Rosie
    Come to think of it, the MGTOWs and other thot-screechers constantly call women "whores," when in fact the substance of their real complaint is that we are not whores. Since our only real worth is our ability to provide sexual services, we should be forced to do that in order to earn our keep.

    If we assume that feminism is indeed responsible for the "incel" plight, then that would imply that in previous eras, women would have married these men for a meal ticket. One could argue that this was not prostitution, because it came along with a promise of lifetime support. In my view, that doesn't mean transactional marriage wasn't prostitution, but only that women were fairly compensated for their services. As I understand it, the MGTOWs want to not only force women into prostitution going forward, but this without restoring the traditional right of lifetime support. We'd be not just whores, but two-bit streetwalkers.

    Of course, this arrangement actually would create incels, because serial monogamy is just polygamy by another name. If girls understand that they are at-will prostitutes, of course they are going to try to get the best they can, while they can, even if that means stealing someone else's husband.

    In the vernacular, a slut screws anyone, a whore screws anyone but me.

    Feminism made the point that marriage is prostitution a long time ago. Modern society has indeed made it largely about money, so I guess they made themselves right.

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    • Agree: Mis(ter)Anthrope
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  67. @AnotherDad
    I read this and thought "what's an incel?".

    I looked that up--"involuntarily celebate". And thought: Ok, there are no doubt a good number of nerdy guys who don't have real girlfriends or wives. This isn't what i ordinarily think of as a company's business, but i could see doing some company "mixers" and on-line introduction/dating stuff to try and help these guys under the umbrella of "healthy lifestyle" and "better worklife balance"
    corporate paternalism.

    Then it slowly dawned on me. That's not what Ellen Pao wants. She wants companies to further harass--ultimately to fire--the unhappy, perhaps angry, male nerds.

    Basically the current--feminist--societal organization is a pretty crappy one for a significant fraction of the men (white and Asian) who have the mental skills to actually do the real productive labor which produces the comfy life for everyone. The feminist and diversity types solution to this ... beat them and make their lives worse! Wouldn't it make way more sense--economic and social--to fire all these women doing the entirely unproductive diversity b.s.?

    Our age is really one where the parasites are riding high--from Wall Street to Washington to the every corporate office strewn across the fruited plain, from sea to shining sea.

    This is the age of the parasite.

    She wants companies to further harass–ultimately to fire–the unhappy, perhaps angry, male nerds.

    No Country for Forty-Year-Old Virgins.

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  68. Anonymous[268] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    Basically the current–feminist–societal organization is a pretty crappy one for a significant fraction of the men (white and Asian) who have the mental skills to actually do the real productive labor which produces the comfy life for everyone.
     
    Like Grouch Marx, they won't join a club that will have them as a member. They have chosen their lot. Why settle for women who are in their league when they've got porn?

    BTW, women aren't prizes to be handed out to men for good behavior.

    Ridiculous. Of course they are. And high status attractive men are prizes given to attractive women for chaste and respectable behaviour.

    You can’t run a stable society unless you control the rewards, whether that be the corner office, the big house or the attractive spouse. If you let the badly behaved win those prizes, you get dystopia.

    Read More
    • Replies: @L Woods
    Society-wrecking female narcissism on full display. Arguing with "her" is pointless, but maybe some of the boomer white knight types hanging around here will finally get it.
    , @sabril
    Anyway, what's funny is that women treat themselves as rewards for high-achieving men. Which is fine, but if they resent that role they only have themselves to blame.

    In fact, almost all male behaviors and double-standards that women complain about could be changed in a matter of weeks if women would just vote with their p*ssies.
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  69. Brutusale says:
    @Anon
    This incel stuff smells like a giant hoax to me, or rather a sort of urban legend with perhaps a grain of truth at its core. "Shadowy online culure" means "Uh, no, we can't direct you to sources in the form of websites or books." All the sources are publicity-hungry types who want to be seen as counterculture experts.

    Also, Ellen Pao is a woman born woman, right?

    For the newbies, Steve has done some depth on Ellen Pao and her betrothed. I leave it as an exercise for the reader as to whether you believe a beauty like Ellen is in a love triangle of is just a beard for a gay black guy.

    https://www.jiveinthe415.com/2012/06/gossip-and-intrigue-in-new-york-times.html

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Some gay men have a marriage strategy that's like that of an ambitious woman. They want a spouse who brings in money and who has status and prestige. Fowlkes was probably not a good provider, and Pao was a better one. As a black crook, Fletcher likely knew he'd hit the glass ceiling in his climb upwards, and he needed a better spouse to maintain his social status and income level. By her grievance-mongering, Pao is very good at manipulating stupid liberals with guilt trips, thus clinging to her social position. No doubt she sees her black husband as an asset when it comes to grievance-mongering any employer who might fire her.
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  70. Maciano says:
    @YetAnotherAnon
    "You should definitely do some pieces on the PUA/MGTOW/MRA/Incel sphere."

    There are already people covering that, from Rational Male and Roissy to Dalrock. Whereas who else covers a range like Steve? Who laid down the Sailer Strategy?

    He's already made his contribution to theory with Sailer's Law Of Female Journalism.

    "The most heartfelt articles by female journalists tend to be demands that social values be overturned in order that, Come the Revolution, the journalist herself will be considered hotter-looking."

    Oh, I agree. I don’t mean the issues of the sphere itself. I think there should be an HBD take on the sphere an sich. You disagree?

    Let’s face it, these male activist communities often theorize without much data. They need some empiricism.

    PS I’m not telling Steve to do anything, I’d just be interested in Steve’s take on it. He’s good at putting these things in a wider perspective without be unfair.

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  71. Anonymous[196] • Disclaimer says:
    @J.Ross
    Chinese company hires "cheerleaders" to encourage young male IT staff
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3208366/Programming-cheerleaders-hired-motivate-Chinese-employees.html

    Chinese company hires “cheerleaders” to encourage young male IT staff

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3208366/Programming-cheerleaders-hired-motivate-Chinese-employees.html

    Lol. I’d get NO work done with beautiful Chinese women in my work space flirting with me. I’d be like Charlie Rose and Tom Brokaw combined.

    ‘How about the female coders? Do they get some men?’ Another said.
    ‘I bet that these girls would work better than the guys in this company, and without needing any cheerleading stuff for that. This is ridiculous,’ a female user said.

    Yeah, bring in some athletic young Nordic men and watch this Chinese female coder change her tune.

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  72. @Anonymous
    Lots of your readers are incels.

    Or possibly one step up from that – white dudes married to Asian chicks.

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    • Replies: @Erik Sieven
    I have the impression it is almost impoosible for a white guy living in Asia being an Incel.
    , @Malcolm X-Lax
    And what would be the opposite of this? Asian or half-Asian dudes able to score to white chicks?

    Off topic: Anyone have any idea why my personal info auto-filled as "MEH 0910" and "[email protected]"
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  73. Brutusale says:
    @Anonymous
    Isn't this what's called a "shit test"? The evo psych translation of Pao's tweet from female hind brain speak is something like, "Hey alpha males, apparently there are a bunch of disgruntled beta males lurking around right under your noses, and they might go postal and take one of you out and permanently remove you from alpha status. If you really are alpha and man enough, why don't you smack down these betas and show them who's boss? And if you can't, well then that just means you really aren't alphas are you, so get the hell out of the way and make way for the real alphas."

    As has already been shown, tech workers are more at risk from those whom their masters arbitrarily demonetize.

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  74. @Anonymous
    Don't say I didn't tell you so and don't stand there like a deer in in the headlights saying, "um . . . "

    Jeez, Steve, get off TDC and finally write something about incels, although you've clearly lost the initiative.

    Or maybe it is back to bragging about the so-called "Sailer Strategy". You'll be doing that all the way to the grave by the looks of things these days.

    In the past, at least, Steve has often name-dropped Roissy, which pretty much covers the area you are describing. In fact, it’s because of Steve that I discovered Roissy’s blog.

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  75. anon[425] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    Isn't this what's called a "shit test"? The evo psych translation of Pao's tweet from female hind brain speak is something like, "Hey alpha males, apparently there are a bunch of disgruntled beta males lurking around right under your noses, and they might go postal and take one of you out and permanently remove you from alpha status. If you really are alpha and man enough, why don't you smack down these betas and show them who's boss? And if you can't, well then that just means you really aren't alphas are you, so get the hell out of the way and make way for the real alphas."

    I don’t think you should overlook the possibility that Ellen Pao is just really dumb, and hasn’t thought her comment through at all.

    It’s entirely possible that she just skimmed an article about “incels”, and found out that they’re sort of the problem of the moment, and felt as though she just had to say something about it. Apparently, she thinks there are people out there who are just dying for the wisdom of Ellen Pao.

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  76. WHAT says:
    @Tyrion 2

    Hiring a prostitute still has the accompanying performance anxiety
     
    I assume most prostitutes would find that sweet. It can only be preferable to the attitude their other customers likely show.

    Also, if you're getting performance anxiety with a girl who is paid to have sex with you and has probably seen it all then your problems run deep. Either tell her or have a few drinks first.

    not always legally safe
     
    It is perfectly legal in the UK. The reason is not because of 'progressive' reasons but simply because it is all but impossible to prove that your sexual transaction was for money.

    In all places where sex between strangers is not illegal, prostitution is de facto legal. (The line between the two is very blurry and in some countries it even may depend how the girl feels the next morning.)

    Wouldn’t a doughy nerd just invite swindling attempts, at the very least
     
    How are they going to get swindled? I assume the doughy nerd knows what sexual intercourse is and therefore if the prostitute has done her job?

    The biggest issue is that the doughy nerd is likely to fall in love with the prostitute, which is pitiful.

    I would also like to say that I neither use nor advocate visiting prostitutes. It is a desperate option when just getting a grip should be first. The only other alternative if you get to this stage is arranged marriage. There are companies that will do this for you too.

    You assume wrong. A whore that has “seen it all” will find a client that has a problem even getting it up pitiful and annoying, with the accompanying intercourse quality, if it even happens. Not everybody can do the deed after a couple of something strong as well.

    Cue even more depression for the nerd either way.

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    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    No, that is her preferred customer, obviously.
    , @Anon
    How do you know that?
    , @nebulafox
    Whores, like anybody else, come in all personality flavors, just as they come in all shapes, sizes, and colors. Some will get annoyed. Some will get mad. Some will smile and do whatever they need to do to get him off and get out of there quickly. Some will feel pity, or in the case of older ones, pseudo-maternal feelings. Some will think its cute and get turned on.

    My favorite story is of this one hooker who got an elderly gentlemen as a client, hadn't had sex in years. He took a very heavy dose of Viagra before the meeting. He was really excited, came in with this big old grin on his face, standing "at attention" in his khakis. The girl smiles, is all seductive, pulls his pants down... and then, that's all he wrote, over her face. Both had cause to be annoyed... but the situation was so flat-out ridiculous that they ended up laughing their butts off. They ended up playing checkers all evening long and parted on very friendly terms.

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  77. anon[425] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    Basically the current–feminist–societal organization is a pretty crappy one for a significant fraction of the men (white and Asian) who have the mental skills to actually do the real productive labor which produces the comfy life for everyone.
     
    Like Grouch Marx, they won't join a club that will have them as a member. They have chosen their lot. Why settle for women who are in their league when they've got porn?

    BTW, women aren't prizes to be handed out to men for good behavior.

    They have chosen their lot. Why settle for women who are in their league when they’ve got porn?

    What if the women in their league would rather be with no one at all than with some socially-awkward weirdo who has to work all the time?

    Plus, you’re forgetting how Silicon Valley works. The people who work there are mostly men, and they move there from all over the world to take a job there. It’s sort of like a Gold Rush camp, where it’s a bunch of men going to a place without that many women. So it’s entirely possible that there really just aren’t enough women to go around in their social circle.

    You could argue that they could always go out with some of the townie types who were already in the area, and maybe they could. But then THOSE guys wouldn’t have enough women to go around.

    It’s easy to mock, but it seems like a legitimate problem. The Gold Rush solved it with prostitutes, but I doubt that would fly today.

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    • Replies: @Rosie

    What if the women in their league would rather be with no one at all than with some socially-awkward weirdo who has to work all the time?
     
    'Twas ever this. I'm never going to support forced prostitution. That's for sure. I don't think social awkwardness is the problem. I think it is rather something akin to psychopathy. The manipulative, object-oriented personality that leads men into tech also explains their genuinely dark personalities. That's my theory anyway. I'm certainly open to correction.

    If I am right, the solution is not forced prostitution as MGTOW advocate, but help for men who struggle to empathize and relate to other human beings.

    Plus, you’re forgetting how Silicon Valley works. The people who work there are mostly men, and they move there from all over the world to take a job there. It’s sort of like a Gold Rush camp, where it’s a bunch of men going to a place without that many women. So it’s entirely possible that there really just aren’t enough women to go around in their social circle.
     
    There may well be something to this. The MGTOW claim that

    (1) Women demand immigration to create a competitive mating market.
    (2) Women hate productive nerdy guys.

    It would seem to follow that something else is behind high-skill immigration. That something else is greed, of course.
    , @Anon
    The gold rush prostitutes only lasted as prostitutes about 3 months before some guy decided to buy her sex and housekeeping services for life on holy matrimony.

    That’s why the Chinese & Japanese brothel keepers kept the girls locked up.

    There’s a story that a group of Chilean pimps chartered a ship, loaded it up with women and thought thry’d make their fortune in San Francisco.

    Most of the girls found husbands in just a few weeks
    , @Marty T
    So I don't get something...if there are that many incels at tech companies, why are so many trying to get these jobs? You'd think the $ could at least get them an asian chick.
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  78. @Anon
    Comfort women. Worked for the Japanese back in the 40s.

    Comfort women. Worked for the Japanese back in the 40s.

    Now there’s some thinking inside the box! Guys, iStever readers – hey, put down the slice of pizza, OK, guys, this is the kind of innovation I’m looking for, see this guy Anon #302? That’s what I wanna see more of next week at the all-hands meeting – no wait, it won’t be a regular all-hands meeting -there’s gonna be the comfort women.

    Skippy, run this by HR. See if they have some resources for this project, and yank my chain mid-week. This should get TOP PRIORITY, 24 x 7 x 69 !

    (Hey, it’s not that expensive compared to free-pizza Fridays, Ultimate-frisbee lunches, and flexible work hours during which I’ve seen some of you at the movie matinee at 2 in the afternoon.)

    Is Mrs Pao really concerned, as a Chinawoman, that some of our computer-tech workers are indeed turning Japanese? I really think so … (think so, think so).

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    • Replies: @ChrisZ
    LOL! Another winner, Achmed.
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  79. @Anon
    Comfort women. Worked for the Japanese back in the 40s.

    Comfort women. Worked for the Japanese back in the 40s.

    Now there’s some thinking inside the box! Guys, iStever readers – hey, put down the slice of pizza, OK, guys, this is the kind of innovation I’m looking for, see this guy Anon #302? That’s what I wanna see more of next week at the all-hands meeting – no wait, it won’t be a regular all-hands meeting -there’s gonna be the comfort women.

    Skippy, run this by HR. See if they have some resources for this project, and yank my chain mid-week. This should get TOP PRIORITY, 24 x 7 x 69 !

    (Hey, it’s not that expensive compared to free-pizza Fridays, Ultimate-frisbee lunches, and flexible work hours during which I’ve seen some of you at the movie matinee at 2 in the afternoon.)

    Is Mrs Pao really concerned, as a Chinawoman, that some of our computer-tech workers are indeed turning Japanese? I really think so … (think so, think so).

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  80. Thea says:

    How can Incels truly exist alongside prostitution?

    Widespread premarital sex is new and yet single guys didn’t go nuts.

    Read More
    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Because meaningless sex with a stranger really is meaningless.
    There are many admissions in leftist social media and highly produced media products where it's clear that they hung their whole system on sex as soma.
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  81. @Anonymous
    It has sometimes occurred to me, in moments of deep cynicism, that guys who don't "get any" should organize as an official grievance group, and get recognized as having a "disability". Then they can get institutional support, and perhaps funding that might help them solve the problem on an ongoing basis. Even white guys could get in the game if they're overweight, but even a reasonably fit white guy could be "on the spectrum". How is this not already a thing?

    …guys who don’t “get any” should organize as an official grievance group…

    Both sides normally assume that men, of course, like polygamy. So, they simply clash over whether polygamy is in the best interests of wives. In reality, however, polygamy victimizes men. You never hear about it because few men want to claim this particular kind of victimhood: that of the sexual rejectee.

    I have been looking in vain for 20 years for an article about polygamy that mentioned that for one man to take a second wife means, in the normal course of things, that another man will get no wife at all.

    I have come to believe that this blind spot stems from it being virtually impossible for a man to imagine himself as one of the 149 losers, rather than the one big winner. He might prefer one wife to 150, but his male ego can’t allow him to identify with all the men who end up rejected and alone. This psychological quirk creates a reality distortion field in the heads of men.

    Steve Sailer, “The Problem with Polygamy”

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    • Replies: @Crawfurdmuir

    I have been looking in vain for 20 years for an article about polygamy that mentioned that for one man to take a second wife means, in the normal course of things, that another man will get no wife at all.
     
    Does this not have something to do with the propensity of young Muslim men towards violence?

    In a society where polygamy is the norm, rich high-status men get all the women and leave poorer, lower-status, typically younger men with none. This gives rise to sexual frustration among the latter, which can find its outlet either in the "solitary vice" or in the kind of faute-de-mieux homosexual behavior that in the West manifests itself in prisons or single-sex boarding schools. Both these, however, are furtive practices regarded as shameful.

    Islam provides an honorable alternative - martyrdom in jihad, which is rewarded with 72 virgins in the afterlife. Hence the cult of the suicide bomber, the rise of ISIS, and the way in which Islamic societies seem either to fall into chaotic violence or to end in grim tyranny.

    , @Anon
    The reason 4 wives is the ideal is the following according to the ancient wisdom of China

    1 Wife
    It’s just too much work for one woman to run the household, bear and raise the kids work in the family business and be a wife too . Doesn’t matter if the family is royalty or migrant laborers, it’s just too much for in woman.

    2Wives
    The 2 wives will gang up against the husband and he’ll never get any peace and quiet

    3 Wives

    2 of the wives will gang up against one wife. The husband will have to mediate and never get any peace and quiet

    4 Wives
    4 is the ideal number The wives will divide themselves into 2 against 2 pairs and squabble and fight amongst themselves and the husband will have peace and quiet.
    , @Almost Missouri


    "it being virtually impossible for a man to imagine himself as one of the 149 losers, rather than the one big winner. He might prefer one wife to 150, but his male ego can’t allow him to identify with all the men who end up rejected and alone. This psychological quirk creates a reality distortion field in the heads of men."
     

     
    This quirk is not only sexual.

    I distinctly recall a WWII reminiscence in which the infantryman narrator is at attention in his 10-man squad on the eve of D-Day while the NCO steels them for the task ahead by telling them that tomorrow 90% of them will be KIA. The narrator glances down the row at his nine squadmates, and thinks, "You poor saps."

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  82. @Dave Pinsen
    https://twitter.com/dpinsen/status/992138260800471041?s=21

    Lol! Yeah, I was trying to come up with something like this.

    “Gee I dunno, Ellen, what are you proposing?”

    “There are better ways to go carousel-riding, Ellen.”

    Etc.

    But you nailed it. Four words. Boom. Done.

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    • Replies: @Thea
    "will you offer you services to help these companies for $75 per hour"
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  83. Ellen Pao is Chinese. Ellen Pao puts the interests of the Chinese ahead of the interests of White Core America.

    Ellen Pao and the GOP CHEAP LABOR FACTION both agree that mass immigration must continue. Ellen Pao and the GOP Ruling Class are using mass immigration to attack the European Christian ancestral core of the United States.

    Ellen Pao, Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan push nation-wrecking mass immigration and multicultural mayhem. Ellen Pao and the GOP ruling class are clear and present threats to the national security interests of the United States.

    White Core America must declare war on the mass immigration pushing GOP ruling class. Trump did it while a candidate, but now our beloved Trumpy is backsliding and making himself unlovable by going soft and weak on immigration.

    Tweet from 2015:

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  84. @AnotherDad
    I read this and thought "what's an incel?".

    I looked that up--"involuntarily celebate". And thought: Ok, there are no doubt a good number of nerdy guys who don't have real girlfriends or wives. This isn't what i ordinarily think of as a company's business, but i could see doing some company "mixers" and on-line introduction/dating stuff to try and help these guys under the umbrella of "healthy lifestyle" and "better worklife balance"
    corporate paternalism.

    Then it slowly dawned on me. That's not what Ellen Pao wants. She wants companies to further harass--ultimately to fire--the unhappy, perhaps angry, male nerds.

    Basically the current--feminist--societal organization is a pretty crappy one for a significant fraction of the men (white and Asian) who have the mental skills to actually do the real productive labor which produces the comfy life for everyone. The feminist and diversity types solution to this ... beat them and make their lives worse! Wouldn't it make way more sense--economic and social--to fire all these women doing the entirely unproductive diversity b.s.?

    Our age is really one where the parasites are riding high--from Wall Street to Washington to the every corporate office strewn across the fruited plain, from sea to shining sea.

    This is the age of the parasite.

    This is the age of the parasite.

    Very succinct.

    The parasite is the ultimate victim no? He wants only a tiny bit of what the successful host has, but that doggone host still tries to fight him off and keep what he has for himself.

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  85. @Hapalong Cassidy
    Or possibly one step up from that - white dudes married to Asian chicks.

    I have the impression it is almost impoosible for a white guy living in Asia being an Incel.

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  86. @Anonymous
    It has sometimes occurred to me, in moments of deep cynicism, that guys who don't "get any" should organize as an official grievance group, and get recognized as having a "disability". Then they can get institutional support, and perhaps funding that might help them solve the problem on an ongoing basis. Even white guys could get in the game if they're overweight, but even a reasonably fit white guy could be "on the spectrum". How is this not already a thing?

    The Dutch government covers the bill for a certain amount of visits to sex workers by mentally and physically disabled citizens.

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  87. Sexbots … Duh!

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  88. Underling: “Well, we could execute them boss.”

    CEO: “Yes, maybe.”

    Underling: “Or buy them hookers, sex dolls, and cocaine.”

    CEO: “Perhaps.”

    Underling: “What about advocating traditional monogamy and marriage norms that helped alleviate some of this?”

    CEO: “Are you insane, you bigot?!”

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  89. Screwtape says:

    War on men. Hijacking labels to further thier cause. Sure, lets further pile on and ridicule men for “not getting laid”. Lets weaponize their labels they use to attempt to find support and meaning in the only place they can: the dark corners of the net. Chase them further from the light, that should help.

    The lack of compassion for men demonstrated by this sick feminized culture should be striking. Yet everyone is so used to it the only thing that interests the various megaphones is how convenient these catchy new terms are for pushing clicks.

    Id reckon most boys 15-18 qualify as incels. Id also reckon that most men over 18 have gone thru protracted periods of Incel. Most find thier way out of it, but not all. This is not new.

    What is new is how the culture’s open hatred of the average man and favoring the female sexual strategy in all social matters has created a monster. Mating is no longer assortive.

    An incel man is no different than those post-wall washed up tinder sluts that have overplayed their hand in the sexual markets and are now demanding a husband. The are involuntarily unmarried. Yet the media carries their water: “where have all the good men gone”; “man up and marry her”, etc.

    Yet nobody outside of certain urls is taking women to task for being unmarryable.

    Im surprised more of these incels havent popped off. If masculinity is not allowed to naturally flourish in pro-civilizational channels, it will eventually come out against civilization.

    The feminine nature has been perverted to emulate the males; it has gone feral in this culture. And we see the results. Men and women both lose. Incels and cat ladies. Only difference is nobody cares about the plight of men.

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    • LOL: Luke Lea
    • Replies: @Rosie

    Yet nobody outside of certain urls is taking women to task for being unmarryable.
     
    The female Hypergamy hoax is collective projection on a massive scale.
    , @mobi

    The lack of compassion for men demonstrated by this sick feminized culture should be striking.

    ...Men and women both lose. Incels and cat ladies. Only difference is nobody cares about the plight of men.
     

    Even more striking should be grown men having come to want, or need, caring and compassion from the likes of Ellen Pao.

    Also, more accurately the root of the problem (Ellen's just another symptom).

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  90. Feminist Corporate rent seekers: Some of you are almost certainly married to conmen and fraudsters. What are you going to do about it?

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  91. Thea says:
    @Rosie
    Come to think of it, the MGTOWs and other thot-screechers constantly call women "whores," when in fact the substance of their real complaint is that we are not whores. Since our only real worth is our ability to provide sexual services, we should be forced to do that in order to earn our keep.

    If we assume that feminism is indeed responsible for the "incel" plight, then that would imply that in previous eras, women would have married these men for a meal ticket. One could argue that this was not prostitution, because it came along with a promise of lifetime support. In my view, that doesn't mean transactional marriage wasn't prostitution, but only that women were fairly compensated for their services. As I understand it, the MGTOWs want to not only force women into prostitution going forward, but this without restoring the traditional right of lifetime support. We'd be not just whores, but two-bit streetwalkers.

    Of course, this arrangement actually would create incels, because serial monogamy is just polygamy by another name. If girls understand that they are at-will prostitutes, of course they are going to try to get the best they can, while they can, even if that means stealing someone else's husband.

    I think you are reading them all wrong. It’s more about social rejection and the rudeness and hostility than sex .

    Hot prostitutes will sleep with them. But other Attractive women mock them. Teaching girls humility, decency and modesty would go a long way to ending the frustration.

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    • Replies: @Rosie

    Hot prostitutes will sleep with them. But other Attractive women mock them. Teaching girls humility, decency and modesty would go a long way to ending the frustration.
     
    Nah. It's the sex.

    It is men who need to learn humility. They are the ones who won't stop chasing women out of their league.
    , @Anon
    What are you talking about? Decent modest women don’t jump into bed with just any random guy.
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  92. anonymous[733] • Disclaimer says:

    That is an easy one, promote traditional marriage and traditional family life and Christianity, but Big Jew Ellen Pao’s patron is going to have none of that.

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  93. Silva says:
    @prosa123
    If anything, the tech industry benefits from all the incel employees. Most are resigned to their fate and they're not distracted by dating and relationship issues.

    That’s a factor, but I think the balance is on the other side: depression is likely both cause and consequence to incelacy, and some of those guys have all the intellect needed, but can’t hold the jobs because getting off the bed is hard (besides lower productivity from those who do show up).

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  94. Rosie says:
    @Dave Pinsen

    BTW, women aren’t prizes to be handed out to men for good behavior.
     
    True. They are prizes to be won by being charismatic and either having or feigning high status, and good behavior has little to do with that.

    True. They are prizes to be won by being charismatic and either having or feigning high status, and good behavior has little to do with that.

    This is a common attitude among a set people of both sexes. They only notice certain types, and then conclude that there are no other types.

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  95. carol says:
    @J.Ross
    Sure is funny that there is at least one guy, anonymous, who is really pushy, and really wants to have a opinion post to tie Steve to the strawman-of-the-moment.
    You know how they say you can tell a human intelligence specialist is in the room. He'll tell you.

    Didn’t Steve start all this brouhaha in the first place by NOTICING?

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  96. @Tiny Duck
    Very true

    I find it very interesting that incels tend to be right wingers


    That tells you something right there

    I’m sure you’re quite the lady killer in real life, Tiny. And by lady killer, I mean in the Jame Gumb “It puts the lotion on its skin” sense.

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  97. L Woods says:
    @Tiny Duck
    Very true

    I find it very interesting that incels tend to be right wingers


    That tells you something right there

    Sorry Tiny — there’s a newer, shinier and more irritating troll in town. Here’s a pity reply for you.

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  98. L Woods says:
    @Anonymous
    Ridiculous. Of course they are. And high status attractive men are prizes given to attractive women for chaste and respectable behaviour.

    You can't run a stable society unless you control the rewards, whether that be the corner office, the big house or the attractive spouse. If you let the badly behaved win those prizes, you get dystopia.

    Society-wrecking female narcissism on full display. Arguing with “her” is pointless, but maybe some of the boomer white knight types hanging around here will finally get it.

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    • Replies: @Rosie

    Society-wrecking female narcissism on full display. Arguing with “her” is pointless, but maybe some of the boomer white knight types hanging around here will finally get it.
     
    Women aren't particularly narcissistic. You just think we are because you don't notice nice girls.


    https://digitalcommons.georgiasouthern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1068&context=honors-theses
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  99. @julius caesar
    Does Ms. Pao want the world to return to 50s when men with families were considered more responsible and given preference over unmarried men?

    sounds good to me.

    Also men with neat clothing, short hair, and clean-shaven. No walking tattoo parlors or jewelry stores.

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  100. MarcB. says:

    Discredited people are supposed to disappear, not sanctimoniously demand to be answered to. But it is entertaining to see Chao publicly stating that Big Tech has an epidemic of employees who can’t score, and that their “needs” must be addressed by employers. I’d suspect she is leaning towards having companies root out employees posting online on these topics, outing and and firing them, not sending them to a weekend PUA boot camp.

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  101. @Hunsdon
    I came here to say that, but Mr. Anon beat me to it.

    I’m afraid too many of these poor men that the Pao person despises are Indians. Is it okay to insult Indians? They’re supposed to remain chaste until marriage, and there aren’t anywhere near enough Indian women around for them to marry. Even in India. There was just a long article published in a major rag about the sex imbalance in China and India. All these guys in their 20′s and 30′s who can’t even find a date, let alone a wife. Pao should be looking to help them.

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    • Replies: @Rosie

    They’re supposed to remain chaste until marriage, and there aren’t anywhere near enough Indian women around for them to marry. Even in India.
     
    This is why MGtopia is a logical impossibility. The kinds of misogynistic culture the MGTOW promote eventually leads to female infanticide, once again leaving them without mates.
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  102. L Woods says:
    @WHAT
    Traditional remedy is in, erm, our hands!
    Hiring a prostitute still has the accompanying performance anxiety and is not always legally safe. Wouldn't a doughy nerd just invite swindling attempts, at the very least?

    Legalized prostitution would solve the incel problem quickly and easily. The supposed epidemic of sexual misconduct afflicting the nation would, insofar as it actually exists, diminish dramatically. But of course we can’t have that, because muh human trafficking (never mind that the most effective way to end such a phenomenon would be to bring it above board) and because the peons must be made to suffer compliantly as a (sick) matter of principle. The petty, vicious female malice towards low status men and the price fixing machinations of the pussy cartel trump all.

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    • Replies: @Yak-15
    Have you ever slept with a prostitute? It can be great but I assure you that it does not build self-esteem or improve your perception of women. If anything, it makes things worse.
    , @Marty T
    I dunno about hookers being the answer. Loneliness is more the issue than just getting your rocks off.
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  103. Rosie says:
    @YetAnotherAnon
    I imagine the incel plight is more that "the sexual revolution" plus female hypergamy means that all the women are after the top 20% of the men - great for those men, not so good for the 80%.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20170316015704/https://theblog.okcupid.com/your-looks-and-your-inbox-8715c0f1561e?gi=40fd8369528

    "As you can see from the gray line, women rate an incredible 80% of guys as worse-looking than medium. Very harsh. "

    Looking at the graph, it's worse than that. On a scale of 0 to 5, women rate 26% of men as 0 and 31% as 1. So that's 57% in the bottom two 'grades' or bottom 1/3 (2 out of 6 categories).

    I imagine the incel plight is more that “the sexual revolution” plus female hypergamy means that all the women are after the top 20% of the men – great for those men, not so good for the 80%.

    Evidently, you didn’t read the rest of the article. Female hypergamy is a hoax that won’t die, because it makes incels feel better about themselves. From the article:

    When it comes down to actually choosing targets, men choose the modelesque. Someone like roomtodance above gets nearly 5 times as many messages as a typical woman and 28 times as many messages as a woman at the low end of our curve. Site-wide, two-thirds of male messages go to the best-looking third of women. So basically, guys are fighting each other 2-for-1 for the absolute best-rated females, while plenty of potentially charming, even cute, girls go unwritten.

    The medical term for this is male pattern madness.

    ***

    As you can see from the gray line, women rate an incredible 80% of guys as worse-looking than medium. Very harsh. On the other hand, when it comes to actual messaging, women shift their expectations only just slightly ahead of the curve, which is a healthier pattern than guys’ pursuing the all-but-unattainable. But with the basic ratings so out-of-whack, the two curves together suggest some strange possibilities for the female thought process, the most salient of which is that the average-looking woman has convinced herself that the vast majority of males aren’t good enough for her, but she then goes right out and messages them anyway.

    In fact, women are not messaging men she thinks are not good enough for her. She is messaging men she finds attractive, who are different from men other women find attractive. There is a lack of consensus among women on who are the most attractive males. That is why men believe that competition for mates is especially acute. They are ignoring all but the most attractive.

    Here is the source of the problem.

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090626153511.htm

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    • Replies: @anon
    There is a lack of consensus among women on who are the most attractive males.

    Is this something you seriously believe?

    Weird that Harvey Weinstein was never picked as one of the sexiest men alive, if that was true...

    That is why men believe that competition for mates is especially acute. They are ignoring all but the most attractive.

    I don't know what made me think of this, but I wonder if Steve would ever come up with a Law Of Female Commenting.

    , @Samuel Skinner
    The cause of the belief in hyper-gamy is while the sexual distribution isn't that bad, the virgin distribution is.
    , @AnotherDad
    Rosie, i read this. It simply indicates what the red-pillers say--and what normal pre-nonsense people have known for thousands upon thousands of years. Men are primarily attracted to women based on *physical* appearance--essentially fertility cues of one sort or another. (Which makes perfect sense because the whole point of sexual attraction is ... to make babies. Men who had something else in mind--were attracted to women based on those women being old or mis-shapen or already looking like they were pregnant or being really great astronomers--those men's lines died out.)

    In contrast women are attracted to men based some on physique, but primarily on fitness in some larger sense--status, provision, protection, good genes, etc. etc. It's not something that you can actually tell from a picture. (Does Trump deserve Melania? You can't tell by just looking at him, you have to know he's a big shot real estate magnate and self-promoter. He could be an old guy with no retirement savings greeting people at Walmart. In which case, "no".) So women disagree. But if the men's full bio's were there along with income and bank balances, women would agree a lot more about "who's attractive".

    The fact that men mostly agree on who the attractive women are is not detecting "a problem". Rather it's detecting (evolved) reality and debunking the feminist notions that "standards of beauty" are "socially constructed" and other such nonsense. No this is basic evolutionarily driven programming, which *must* exist logically in order for a species using sexual reproduction to propagate.

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  104. anonymous[381] • Disclaimer says:

    Why does she assume that there must be incels working at tech companies? What about trucking firms, fire depts, construction companies? Why dump on the tech sector? What with her strange marriage to a black homosexual she seems to be sexually weird herself. Do sex weirdos of different stripes bond with each other or do they all hate each other as being in different and competing camps?

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  105. anon[425] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    I imagine the incel plight is more that “the sexual revolution” plus female hypergamy means that all the women are after the top 20% of the men – great for those men, not so good for the 80%.
     
    Evidently, you didn't read the rest of the article. Female hypergamy is a hoax that won't die, because it makes incels feel better about themselves. From the article:

    When it comes down to actually choosing targets, men choose the modelesque. Someone like roomtodance above gets nearly 5 times as many messages as a typical woman and 28 times as many messages as a woman at the low end of our curve. Site-wide, two-thirds of male messages go to the best-looking third of women. So basically, guys are fighting each other 2-for-1 for the absolute best-rated females, while plenty of potentially charming, even cute, girls go unwritten.

    The medical term for this is male pattern madness.

    ***

    As you can see from the gray line, women rate an incredible 80% of guys as worse-looking than medium. Very harsh. On the other hand, when it comes to actual messaging, women shift their expectations only just slightly ahead of the curve, which is a healthier pattern than guys’ pursuing the all-but-unattainable. But with the basic ratings so out-of-whack, the two curves together suggest some strange possibilities for the female thought process, the most salient of which is that the average-looking woman has convinced herself that the vast majority of males aren’t good enough for her, but she then goes right out and messages them anyway.
     

    In fact, women are not messaging men she thinks are not good enough for her. She is messaging men she finds attractive, who are different from men other women find attractive. There is a lack of consensus among women on who are the most attractive males. That is why men believe that competition for mates is especially acute. They are ignoring all but the most attractive.

    Here is the source of the problem.

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090626153511.htm

    There is a lack of consensus among women on who are the most attractive males.

    Is this something you seriously believe?

    Weird that Harvey Weinstein was never picked as one of the sexiest men alive, if that was true…

    That is why men believe that competition for mates is especially acute. They are ignoring all but the most attractive.

    I don’t know what made me think of this, but I wonder if Steve would ever come up with a Law Of Female Commenting.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    Actually, there are girls who go for the Sad Poet, the Artist in the Garret, the Musician With the Crap Day Job. Not everybody wants Mr. Overachiever or the Aggressive Bad Boy.
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  106. Thea says:
    @AnotherDad
    I read this and thought "what's an incel?".

    I looked that up--"involuntarily celebate". And thought: Ok, there are no doubt a good number of nerdy guys who don't have real girlfriends or wives. This isn't what i ordinarily think of as a company's business, but i could see doing some company "mixers" and on-line introduction/dating stuff to try and help these guys under the umbrella of "healthy lifestyle" and "better worklife balance"
    corporate paternalism.

    Then it slowly dawned on me. That's not what Ellen Pao wants. She wants companies to further harass--ultimately to fire--the unhappy, perhaps angry, male nerds.

    Basically the current--feminist--societal organization is a pretty crappy one for a significant fraction of the men (white and Asian) who have the mental skills to actually do the real productive labor which produces the comfy life for everyone. The feminist and diversity types solution to this ... beat them and make their lives worse! Wouldn't it make way more sense--economic and social--to fire all these women doing the entirely unproductive diversity b.s.?

    Our age is really one where the parasites are riding high--from Wall Street to Washington to the every corporate office strewn across the fruited plain, from sea to shining sea.

    This is the age of the parasite.

    Didn’t the term Incels come from Reddit?

    If they just hire prostirures of color they can solve a lot of diversity issues at once.

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  107. Rosie says:

    Let’s face it, these male activist communities often theorize without much data. They need some empiricism.

    Not only that, but they stubbornly ignore the evidence. In short, they are liars.

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  108. What are you going to do about it?

    Hire Stormy Daniels. She’s open for business.

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  109. songbird says:

    The term “incel” does not make any sense to me. At one time, it may have been true on long distance sea voyages, where sailors returning would oggle and wolf-whistle at any middle-aged woman fixing her glass eye into its socket and limping with her peg leg along the jetty.

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    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein
    Yes, I agree. The term "incel" is meaningless.

    In order to technically qualify as an incel, you would have to be fully committed to having sex, making every reasonable attempt to do so, and yet striking out time after time, every time. This would be an exceedingly rare creature indeed. In a society this large, with so many women about, virtually any man can find some woman to have sex with if he keeps applying himself.

    I think the real issue here is men who are conditionally celibate. Their thought process runs something like....

    "Sure, I would like to be having more sex, but I would also like to end up with a solid relationship, a good companion, and a family out of the deal. But most women today come with way too much baggage, and I just don't want that kind of drama in my life. The hot girls attract too much attention from the wrong kind of guys; I could never be confident of their loyalty, and they would probably be lazy and high-maintenance anyway. And even the not-so-hot girls are possessed of far too much attitude these days. If I could meet a good girl who liked me and respected me, then things would be different. But where do you find such women? They seem to have disappeared. I don't want to chase around some THOT just so I can say I say I have girlfriend. The bottom line is, if a girl isn't going to be good to me, then I don't really need her. I know as a man I'm supposed to act as if one's sexual score is everything, but really it isn't. There are other things in life more important than having non-reproductive, non-relationship sex with crazy women. I don't have the energy or the desire to pursue it any longer, but in order to avoid the censure of a sexually obsessed society, I 'm going to have to drop out of the social scene altogether. It's sad and painful, but I have no choice under the circumstances."
     
    The celibacy of such a man may not be desired, but it is entirely "voluntary" in the Aristotelian sense. Now the real question is, why do people like execrable Roissy and his ilk reserve their harshest invective for men taking this entirely reasonable (albeit unfortunate) position? Why ridicule them as betas, incels, losers, and so forth? They aren't any of these things. They're just men who've realized that the rewards are no longer worth the stakes. Why does Roissy bear in his heart a hatred for men who've had enough of his stupid "game" and aren't going to play anymore? It can only be because the spiritual purity of such a position completely outclasses his own venal and pathetic obsession.

    Roissy is not the answer to society's ills. He is part of the illness himself.
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  110. Whiskey says: • Website
    @Rosie

    Basically the current–feminist–societal organization is a pretty crappy one for a significant fraction of the men (white and Asian) who have the mental skills to actually do the real productive labor which produces the comfy life for everyone.
     
    Like Grouch Marx, they won't join a club that will have them as a member. They have chosen their lot. Why settle for women who are in their league when they've got porn?

    BTW, women aren't prizes to be handed out to men for good behavior.

    Agreed and male protection from other male violence and male resources are not prizes to be handed out to women either. See India on how that works.

    More proof of needed that women are the eternal and natural enemy of the best male. Lord of The Flies might create sexy violent alphas but women eventually get it too. See that poor woman who died in India after a brutal assault on the bus.

    Middle class society and safety for women requires majority White population getting their way not ghetto way and having an interest including a woman. Otherwise they won’t risk it all to defend some random woman.

    Want White knights? Almost all men have to get some. No man is going to risk death as an incel for some other dudes random woman.

    Like I said you won’t like Lord of the Flies.

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    • Replies: @Rosie

    Agreed and male protection from other male violence and male resources are not prizes to be handed out to women either. See India on how that works.
     
    This is why you and your ilk insist that women can't do anything productive. You know the only way you're ever going to get sex, which is clearly an obsession for you, is if women have no other options, not even traditional ones like religious orders, teaching, nursing, etc. I am beginning to understand the depths of depravity I'm dealing with here, slowly but surely.
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  111. Ellen Pao is a Chinese woman possessed of the Devil through the demonic control of the evil Jezebel spirit.

    Ellen Pao also ain’t as good looking as those two Chinese broads that Bertolucci put into his The Last Emperor movie.

    I will now attempt to drive the Jezebel spirit from Pao, wish me luck!

    Here goes:

    Ellen Pao has a Jezebal spirit within her

    Ellen Pao has a spirit of grief

    Ellen Pao has a spirit of destruction

    Jezebel,

    Spirit of grief

    Spirit of destruction

    I bind you with chains of iron

    I bind you out of that bounded heaven

    Loosen your hold of Ellen Pao and come out of her now!

    Out! Out! Jezebel!

    Out in the name of Jesus!

    Jezebel you are going to listen to me

    Ellen Pao was intended by God to be a virtuous woman

    You have no right to her

    That dumb boob who married Pao is the head of the house

    Out Jezebel! Out Jezebel!

    I break your power Jezebel

    Loosen your hold on Ellen Pao’s mind!

    Out of Ellen Pao now Jezebel

    You can sit down now

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    • Replies: @mobi

    I will now attempt to drive the Jezebel spirit from Pao, wish me luck!
     
    Well done, but Ellen's doing what Ellen should.

    Expecting her to do for white males what they're unwilling to do for themselves - now, where's the spell for exorcising that shit?

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  112. wrd9 says:
    @Scott Locklin
    Some classic responses:

    https://twitter.com/JustinWhang/status/992076196358840320

    It’s working.

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  113. Hire Stormy Daniels. She’s open for business.

    So to speak . . .

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  114. @Mr. Blank
    Help me out here. I can’t figure out how to interpret her Tweet.

    There are two ways to read it, and both are completely insane.

    I take it she is worried because of the incel in Toronto who killed some people recently. Based on that one example, she concludes that incels are dangerous, and she is worried that the incels in tech companies will kill the other employees. Presumably, she wants them fired before they do this.

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  115. Yeah, CEOs should totally fire most of their IT staff because Ellen Pao says to do it. What a great business strategy.

    Of course, what she is really talking about is incel politics and online activism. Problem is: firing people because of their probable politics is even more problematic.

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  116. Tech colleges have high male to female ratios. Imposing this kind of environment on young men during such formative years is abuse and does damage that reaches beyond their own sexual development.

    Of course, the dimensions of the assault on masculinity in general are so numerous that it’s rather foolish to focus on one dimension and lose sight of the bigger picture: parasitic castration of most of the population — not just males — characteristic of the evolution of eusociality, such as occurs in the culture of group integrity. Civil society isn’t as far along in this evolution as are some insects and the naked mole rat, but it is clearly headed there.

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    • Replies: @Pericles

    Tech colleges have high male to female ratios. Imposing this kind of environment on young men during such formative years is abuse and does damage that reaches beyond their own sexual development.

     

    One clever university I visited had located the nursing school right next to engineering.
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  117. Thea says:
    @Almost Missouri
    Lol! Yeah, I was trying to come up with something like this.

    "Gee I dunno, Ellen, what are you proposing?"

    "There are better ways to go carousel-riding, Ellen."

    Etc.

    But you nailed it. Four words. Boom. Done.

    “will you offer you services to help these companies for $75 per hour”

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  118. @Anonymous
    Mail order brides?
    Latin/Asian: fully paid.
    Russian: 20% copay (no refund in event of divorce)

    Ha ha ha. The Russkie chicks are out-of-network.

    But I’d be wary about marrying the broad Kaiser Permanente is willing to pay for…

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  119. Sleep says:

    You silly silly people. She clearly meant to say “Intel” … and why all this hate? She’s just trying to keep the big tech corporations on the ball in the fight against malicious processor exploits.

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  120. njguy73 says:

    How about guaranteed job security for incel tech workers who volunteer to undergo chemical castration?

    Or, and I’ll keep suggesting this until it happens: secular, government-regulated monastic orders for incels who would carry out government functions in exchange for basic provisions. And those Neo-Monks would be given societal esteem so they won’t feel the need to strike back.

    I’m tired of all this half-assed, half-measure talk. It’s the Fourth Turning. Let’s start tearing down old institutions are replacing them with new ones.

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    • Replies: @Silva
    You could hand the government to the people who won't steal to leave to their children.
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  121. @Hapalong Cassidy
    Or possibly one step up from that - white dudes married to Asian chicks.

    And what would be the opposite of this? Asian or half-Asian dudes able to score to white chicks?

    Off topic: Anyone have any idea why my personal info auto-filled as “MEH 0910″ and “[email protected]

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    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    Maybe because you just outed the guy you share the browser with?
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  122. Being unable to get laid isn’t bad enough, apparently. Chairman Pao wants to render them unemployable, as well. Yeah, I’m sure that won’t lead to any mass killings….

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  123. Anon[258] • Disclaimer says:

    Back in the Victorian era, Incels got married by spending a lot of time in the parlor of the young woman they were in love with, and taking long walks with her while they discussed life, the universe, and everything. It takes a very long time for a shy young man to get over his shyness in the presence of someone he is in love with, and it takes a lot of exposure for a young woman to see the value in a man who is normally too shy and awkward to talk to her.

    Your average Incel is not a hook-up guy. He is not a one-night-stand guy. He wants a long-term spouse. He doesn’t have the nervous system to endure the social stress of one-night stands. That’s for extroverts. He likes to kid himself that he does, but he doesn’t.

    Incels do badly if they just walk up to a woman they’ve never talked to and ask her out. She’s going to say no. They do better if they get involved in a group activity with someone they’re in love with, and repeat the activity with her for several weeks. That gives her a better chance to get to know him. It also gives her a chance to see how he behaves in various social situations. He’ll get a leg up if the extroverts in the group are a little nasty, and he’s more kind.

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    • Agree: Rosie
    • Replies: @Rosie
    If their corporate slavemasters are working them so hard that they don't have time to find a spouse, that's hardly women's fault.
    , @Yak-15
    This is why so many dorks play coed kickball.
    , @L Woods
    That’s a nice thought, but it doesn’t work that way in real life anymore. If it did, incels wouldn’t be incels. In fact, the most aggressive extroverts take all in group settings even more so than in other mediums. The biggest bullshitter will beat an introvert to the punch long before the latter has the opportunity to slowly develop anything.

    As for the nerves: I suggest drinking heavily. It never really gets fun, but it does get done. It’s a psychopath’s world after all.
    , @Handel

    Your average Incel is not a hook-up guy. He is not a one-night-stand guy. He wants a long-term spouse. He doesn’t have the nervous system to endure the social stress of one-night stands. That’s for extroverts. He likes to kid himself that he does, but he doesn’t.
     
    I am sorry, but I don't think you understand what an 'incel' is. Are you confusing 'incel' with introvert?

    Incels are involuntarily celibate. Majority rank at the bottom of the barrel. On attractiveness scales, think 2/10, or below. They don't have status, charisma, or anything else to make them desirable. To make matters worse, they are mentally damaged from years of bullying in public schools, where their peers looked at them with contempt.

    Your advice is sound for a small subset of these 'incel' men, specifically those with avoidant personalities who get anxious / shy around women, but it is old-fashioned I'm afraid. It would hardly work in today's fast-paced sexual marketplace.

    Now, how do you help these people? They are leftovers. Nobody wants them. They know it. And while society may benefit from their labor, it is unclear who/what they are working towards.

    I agree that getting to know someone takes time, and with enough time spent together, perhaps a female might be interested, but let's not kid ourselves. Incel men went through a decade of school, and another four/five years of college without a kiss. They are literally kissless virgins who have not had female friends through decades of socialization in a shared environment. You may find it hard to believe, but these people really exist! I assure you! One of my best friends... prime example... He makes 80k/yr in IT, but he is mentally screwed up. Girls don't look at him. He is awkward. He is a kissless virgin.

    And here's the sad part: I don't think you or I can really help these people! This generation was born before the internet era and still grew up believing that if they worked hard and had a career, that they might perhaps find a modest girl who would be willing to settle on them, but those times are over. Hypergamy and the Tinder/toxic hook-up culture has killed off any hopes for the Incel. Outside of mail-order brides and SE Asia, they are screwed, and they know it.

    A woman today would much rather choose the hook-up culture through Facebook/Instagram/Tinder apps than to date such a man. And there are few consequences to pursuing that lifestyle. Pregnancy is one consequence, but is it all that bad? She can be in her teens and give birth out of wedlock, we see this frequently. But it is no problem for the single mom. After all, the state is always there to help father and raise the kid.

    FACT: Incels are not needed by society. If they are lucky, their mother loves them...

    ... and it is anyone's guess as to why there are so few killings by a deranged subset of these individuals. They never get any respect.
    , @MBlanc46
    Women generally prefer the nasty guys.
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  124. dwb says:
    @Tyrion 2
    They should remake 40 Year Old Virgin and rather than being quite a sweet and affecting if degenerate comedy that sympathised with the main character and his struggles, it could be a horror story where the eponymous virgin is a creepy, malevolent freak who eventually gets hunted down by the chick from The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo, as played by Ellen Pao.

    Amd while doing that they could make a movie where the bad guy is homeless, or disabled or just the Elephant Man. Then again, maybe Ellen really is implying that the tech company should hire some prostitutes - obviously that is what this incel lot should do for themselves. It is the traditional remedy for acute male sexual anxiety.

    This movie was already made. Did you miss “One Hour Photo?”

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  125. dwb says:
    @Escher

    CEOs of big tech companies: You almost certainly have incels as employees. What are you going to do about it?
     
    Install metal detectors at the office entrances?

    Hint:

    unless the guy in question is pulling a David St Hubbins, the metal detector is not going to catch him.

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    • Replies: @schnellandine
    David St. Hubbins? Derek Smalls. Please.
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  126. AndrewR says:
    @J.Ross
    Convincing documentation, bro.
    (If anything, an awful lot of the commenters are middle-aged and married.)

    Marriage and celibacy not only aren’t mutually exclusive, they’re probably correlative.

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    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Yeah but the accusation of incel is that you're mad that you have been cut off from major life milestones that have uptonow been tak
    , @J.Ross
    Yeah but the real accusation of incel is that you're mad that you have been cut off from major life milestones which have up to now been taken for granted, even among the very poor; that's where the anger comes from, and a married guy with kids (who almost certainly has a house and a decent career) who is neither getting serviced nor cheating cannot have the same anger.
    (Pardon my mis-post above)
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  127. Anon[258] • Disclaimer says:
    @Brutusale
    For the newbies, Steve has done some depth on Ellen Pao and her betrothed. I leave it as an exercise for the reader as to whether you believe a beauty like Ellen is in a love triangle of is just a beard for a gay black guy.

    https://www.jiveinthe415.com/2012/06/gossip-and-intrigue-in-new-york-times.html

    Some gay men have a marriage strategy that’s like that of an ambitious woman. They want a spouse who brings in money and who has status and prestige. Fowlkes was probably not a good provider, and Pao was a better one. As a black crook, Fletcher likely knew he’d hit the glass ceiling in his climb upwards, and he needed a better spouse to maintain his social status and income level. By her grievance-mongering, Pao is very good at manipulating stupid liberals with guilt trips, thus clinging to her social position. No doubt she sees her black husband as an asset when it comes to grievance-mongering any employer who might fire her.

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  128. anon[508] • Disclaimer says:

    Every time this idiot woman opens her mouth, I cringe. Same with Nikki Haley. Both make their tribes look bad.

    Are feminists the female version of incels?

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  129. gunner29 says:
    @J.Ross

    Women aren’t prizes to be handed out to men for good behavior.
     
    Of course not -- they hand themselves out to the top five per cent of guys.

    Of course not — they hand themselves out to the top five per cent of guys.

    That is exactly what Trump was referring to; it’s not that he could grab them by the pussy, they want him to!

    Of course the lying media, lied about it….

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  130. AndrewR says:
    @Anonymous
    He's 6'8" and lanky (if you catch my drift) and he's an MBA. He's probably been drowning in tail his whole life. I imagine he has trouble empathizing with the whole PUA, MRA, incel, etc. scene and thus isn't comfortable writing about it.

    Steve “Slut-Slayer” Sailer

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  131. @J.Ross
    Chinese company hires "cheerleaders" to encourage young male IT staff
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3208366/Programming-cheerleaders-hired-motivate-Chinese-employees.html

    The pingpong part is clever. We have pingpong too (and foosball). Having one of these girls permanently occupying one end of the table means only half as many engineers, at a time, can be away from their desks playing pingpong.

    I’m gonna put in a word about us hiring three such girls, for the foosball table. Might be harder to find girls who can play foosball, but I could train them in a week or two.

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    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    My brother taught me to play defense years ago. (It's easier when you're buzzed.)
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  132. “What are you going to do about it?”

    Provide company field trips to brothels?

    There have always been frustrated old bachelors and frustrated old maids. Literature has examined this as a socio-economic issue, but when did it become a safety issue?

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    • Replies: @fish2
    With Elliott Rodger.

    We live in a fundamentally stupid world.
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  133. @Rosie

    I imagine the incel plight is more that “the sexual revolution” plus female hypergamy means that all the women are after the top 20% of the men – great for those men, not so good for the 80%.
     
    Evidently, you didn't read the rest of the article. Female hypergamy is a hoax that won't die, because it makes incels feel better about themselves. From the article:

    When it comes down to actually choosing targets, men choose the modelesque. Someone like roomtodance above gets nearly 5 times as many messages as a typical woman and 28 times as many messages as a woman at the low end of our curve. Site-wide, two-thirds of male messages go to the best-looking third of women. So basically, guys are fighting each other 2-for-1 for the absolute best-rated females, while plenty of potentially charming, even cute, girls go unwritten.

    The medical term for this is male pattern madness.

    ***

    As you can see from the gray line, women rate an incredible 80% of guys as worse-looking than medium. Very harsh. On the other hand, when it comes to actual messaging, women shift their expectations only just slightly ahead of the curve, which is a healthier pattern than guys’ pursuing the all-but-unattainable. But with the basic ratings so out-of-whack, the two curves together suggest some strange possibilities for the female thought process, the most salient of which is that the average-looking woman has convinced herself that the vast majority of males aren’t good enough for her, but she then goes right out and messages them anyway.
     

    In fact, women are not messaging men she thinks are not good enough for her. She is messaging men she finds attractive, who are different from men other women find attractive. There is a lack of consensus among women on who are the most attractive males. That is why men believe that competition for mates is especially acute. They are ignoring all but the most attractive.

    Here is the source of the problem.

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090626153511.htm

    The cause of the belief in hyper-gamy is while the sexual distribution isn’t that bad, the virgin distribution is.

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    • Replies: @Rosie

    The cause of the belief in hyper-gamy is while the sexual distribution isn’t that bad, the virgin distribution is.
     
    Cry me a river. Perhaps men should start taking each other to task for pumping and dumping for years on end and then wondering where all the virgins are when they finally decide to settle down.
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  134. @AnotherDad
    I read this and thought "what's an incel?".

    I looked that up--"involuntarily celebate". And thought: Ok, there are no doubt a good number of nerdy guys who don't have real girlfriends or wives. This isn't what i ordinarily think of as a company's business, but i could see doing some company "mixers" and on-line introduction/dating stuff to try and help these guys under the umbrella of "healthy lifestyle" and "better worklife balance"
    corporate paternalism.

    Then it slowly dawned on me. That's not what Ellen Pao wants. She wants companies to further harass--ultimately to fire--the unhappy, perhaps angry, male nerds.

    Basically the current--feminist--societal organization is a pretty crappy one for a significant fraction of the men (white and Asian) who have the mental skills to actually do the real productive labor which produces the comfy life for everyone. The feminist and diversity types solution to this ... beat them and make their lives worse! Wouldn't it make way more sense--economic and social--to fire all these women doing the entirely unproductive diversity b.s.?

    Our age is really one where the parasites are riding high--from Wall Street to Washington to the every corporate office strewn across the fruited plain, from sea to shining sea.

    This is the age of the parasite.

    Yep. Just lure the ThoughtCriminals out of hiding with promises to Help …

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  135. Mr. Blank says:
    @J.Ross
    Convincing documentation, bro.
    (If anything, an awful lot of the commenters are middle-aged and married.)

    That’s my take, too. A lot of Steve’s readers seem like married middle-aged white guys worried about the world their kids are going to inhabit. (Full disclosure: This describes me.)

    Incels and incel-heavy sites are very angry. Sailer writes about golf course architecture, which doesn’t strike me as a subject of much interest to angry young men who can’t get laid.

    The “your readers are incels lol” jab confuses cultural impotence with social and physical impotence.

    I’m no expert, though. For the definitive take on Steve’s readers, we should consult Professor Tiny Duck. :)

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  136. @Rosie

    I imagine the incel plight is more that “the sexual revolution” plus female hypergamy means that all the women are after the top 20% of the men – great for those men, not so good for the 80%.
     
    Evidently, you didn't read the rest of the article. Female hypergamy is a hoax that won't die, because it makes incels feel better about themselves. From the article:

    When it comes down to actually choosing targets, men choose the modelesque. Someone like roomtodance above gets nearly 5 times as many messages as a typical woman and 28 times as many messages as a woman at the low end of our curve. Site-wide, two-thirds of male messages go to the best-looking third of women. So basically, guys are fighting each other 2-for-1 for the absolute best-rated females, while plenty of potentially charming, even cute, girls go unwritten.

    The medical term for this is male pattern madness.

    ***

    As you can see from the gray line, women rate an incredible 80% of guys as worse-looking than medium. Very harsh. On the other hand, when it comes to actual messaging, women shift their expectations only just slightly ahead of the curve, which is a healthier pattern than guys’ pursuing the all-but-unattainable. But with the basic ratings so out-of-whack, the two curves together suggest some strange possibilities for the female thought process, the most salient of which is that the average-looking woman has convinced herself that the vast majority of males aren’t good enough for her, but she then goes right out and messages them anyway.
     

    In fact, women are not messaging men she thinks are not good enough for her. She is messaging men she finds attractive, who are different from men other women find attractive. There is a lack of consensus among women on who are the most attractive males. That is why men believe that competition for mates is especially acute. They are ignoring all but the most attractive.

    Here is the source of the problem.

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090626153511.htm

    Rosie, i read this. It simply indicates what the red-pillers say–and what normal pre-nonsense people have known for thousands upon thousands of years. Men are primarily attracted to women based on *physical* appearance–essentially fertility cues of one sort or another. (Which makes perfect sense because the whole point of sexual attraction is … to make babies. Men who had something else in mind–were attracted to women based on those women being old or mis-shapen or already looking like they were pregnant or being really great astronomers–those men’s lines died out.)

    In contrast women are attracted to men based some on physique, but primarily on fitness in some larger sense–status, provision, protection, good genes, etc. etc. It’s not something that you can actually tell from a picture. (Does Trump deserve Melania? You can’t tell by just looking at him, you have to know he’s a big shot real estate magnate and self-promoter. He could be an old guy with no retirement savings greeting people at Walmart. In which case, “no”.) So women disagree. But if the men’s full bio’s were there along with income and bank balances, women would agree a lot more about “who’s attractive”.

    The fact that men mostly agree on who the attractive women are is not detecting “a problem”. Rather it’s detecting (evolved) reality and debunking the feminist notions that “standards of beauty” are “socially constructed” and other such nonsense. No this is basic evolutionarily driven programming, which *must* exist logically in order for a species using sexual reproduction to propagate.

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    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    Some truth to that. Fashions in body type do change, but scientists looked at ancient Greek and Roman statues, medieval pictures of women with long torsos and short legs, cushiony Renaissance women, boyish flappers, bosomy stars like Monroe, and found one common thread: a small waist to hip ratio. .7 is average, .8 or .9 seen as less desirable, even if the woman is of average or lower than average weight, and an average-weight 1.0 ( straight up and down) will lose to a slightly overweight woman with an hourglass waist or a skinny woman with booty.

    And yes, it's an instinctive preference for child-bearing hips. Although Marilyn Monroe was never able to become a mother, she had a jaw-dropping .6 ratio, which made her look stunning even in a suit:

    https://goo.gl/images/WK5BrJ
    , @Rosie

    Which makes perfect sense because the whole point of sexual attraction is … to make babies.
     
    Your fertility detection mechanisms are not infallible, and your attempts to place male mating preferences above criticism fail even on a theoretical level. Attraction to extreme thinness may or may not have been adaptive in the past, but it certainly is not now.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2442084/Anorexic-model-Georgina-Wilkin-organs-failing-designers-booked-her.html


    In which case, “no”.) So women disagree. But if the men’s full bio’s were there along with income and bank balances, women would agree a lot more about “who’s attractive”.
     
    Then why do women spread their responses out more equitably on dating sites than men, where presumably full bios are included?

    Try again.


    The fact that men mostly agree on who the attractive women are is not detecting “a problem.
     
    If you want men to get married rather than rely on porn, then yes it most certainly is a problem.
    , @Anon
    Oh please 99 percent of women have always been able to conceive and bear children. Any random women can have babies

    Women of every body type and weight distribution have always been able to conceive and bear children.

    In most of the world arranged marriages were the norm until recently. And plenty of Muslims never saw the wife until hours after the marriage ceremony.

    There are no physical signals that a woman can have babies because almost all women can have babies.

    Tall short skinny chubby whatever. And fat hips have nothing to do with it despite whatever superstition you picked up. Big breasts have nothing to do with breast feeding either.

    Malnutrition to starvation level brings the ratio of fat to muscle & bone down to the level where certain hormones stop production but that level of starvation is rare.

    Don’t most men consider fat thighs to be ugly and unattractive? The fat in the thighs has a role in the hormones that start the childbirth process going.
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  137. @julius caesar
    Does Ms. Pao want the world to return to 50s when men with families were considered more responsible and given preference over unmarried men?

    Maybe she doesn’t, but I do. That custom made for more stable families and communities. My Dad told me how happy one employer was when he got married and the kids started arriving. It cost time and money to train replacements. A family meant Dad was more likely to stick around for the stable pay and benefits, and they increased both to make staying more attractive.

    In addition to helping young families, such a policy provides an incentive NOT to have single parent families, usually with absent father, or both parents unemployed, claiming separate residences, and getting benefits which will be cut if it turns out daddy IS living there after all.

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  138. @Joe Magarac
    "incel" == guy who can't get any, right?

    So big corporations' HR departments should interrogate all male employees about whether they are getting any, and subject those who are not to hostile scrutiny if not outright dismissal.

    And of course all new hires must not be guys who are not getting any.

    It's as if making "incels" snap and turn to terrorism were Ellen Pao's pet project.

    Is this the new “don’t ask, don’t tell”?

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  139. @Another German Reader
    Blacks, who are incels, should be given priority.

    But only after Transgender Incel Blacks.

    But first top priority should be given to Muslim Transgender Incel Blacks, who are victims of Harvey "The Harvester" Weinstein.

    We have a BINGO!

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  140. @StAugustine
    Unless one of the lads from CH corrects me, I believe that's a photo of Mystery, one of the groundbreaker PUA (pickup artists) who wrote the treatise "Mystery Method" on the stages of attraction and his methodical way of picking up chicks. He is wearing a classic "peacocking" outfit, which has the design of being eye-catching and intriguing to women - one of his signature styles.

    Seriously? He looks like a pimp, so who would go for that besides the kind of females who work for pimps?

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    • Replies: @Forbes
    It's a little over the top these days--but 5-10 years ago, not so much. It's a conversation starter. Young women can't help themselves, their curiosity gets the better of them. If it's "outrageous," they have to go and find out "what's the deal?" It takes balls and confidence to pull it off--and that's what 20-something women look for.
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  141. hyperbola says:

    Ellen Pao represents the same kind of phenomenon as the recent immigrants that become fanatic “patriots” to prove they “belong” and are “valuable”. It is not surprising that she picked up on which topics to be “patriotic” about in the cesspools of the Harvard Law and Business Schools.

    Do we really have to be inundated with the stupidities of narcistic, boring sect lackeys? This seems to be more incestuous masturbation by little sects.

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  142. @International Jew
    The pingpong part is clever. We have pingpong too (and foosball). Having one of these girls permanently occupying one end of the table means only half as many engineers, at a time, can be away from their desks playing pingpong.

    I'm gonna put in a word about us hiring three such girls, for the foosball table. Might be harder to find girls who can play foosball, but I could train them in a week or two.

    My brother taught me to play defense years ago. (It’s easier when you’re buzzed.)

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    • Replies: @International Jew
    Yeah, it's D I could train them for in a couple weeks. O is an art that most people will never learn well.
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  143. Rosie says:

    Is this something you seriously believe?

    What I believe is irrelevant. We’re not talking about religion. We’re talking about questions of empirical fact.

    And yes, this is something I actually believe. I have seen women take a shine to guys based on all sorts of different qualities. Sense of humor, intellect, and musical ability are the most important.

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    • Replies: @James N. Kennett

    I have seen women take a shine to guys based on all sorts of different qualities. Sense of humor, intellect, and musical ability are the most important.
     
    Your selection of anecdotes is disingenuous. I have seen a man who won the Fields Medal. It doesn't mean that this is a typical attribute of men.

    In my own social circle the men who are most attractive to women are the ones who are confident, ebullient, thick-skinned, irrationally self-confident - almost irrespective of their financial circumstances, height, appearance, or fidelity.

    Ellen Pao probably just wants more attractive men in tech workplaces. Incels are, by definition, not attractive, and she wants them replaced by hunkier specimens, irrespective of their productivity. The fortunes of her company do not matter - which chimes with her mediocre track record as a CEO.
    , @anon
    I have seen women take a shine to guys based on all sorts of different qualities. Sense of humor, intellect, and musical ability are the most important.

    OK, well. That's three qualities. And I do not believe, nor will I ever believe, that intellect is even in the top ten.

    When I was in college, there were a lot of guys on my dorm floor who were in engineering and computer science. I got to know them and kept in touch with some of them throughout college.

    I know for a fact that the majority of those guys never went on a single date throughout college. You know how I know? Because when one of the others did, it was like a major event in their little group.

    Those guys were in the top ten percent of intellect in the university, so probably in the top one percent of the population at large. So why weren't women throwing themselves at them?

    I had better luck than they did, and I don't mind telling you that they were smarter than I was. And personality-wise, I tend towards crabbiness about half the time. And I have less musical talent than the average fourth-grader with a plastic recorder.

    And most of these guys weren't ugly. One of them was (in my admittedly non-female opinion) rather handsome, actually. They weren't exactly buff, but they were roughly average for the people at that time and place. If you didn't know them, they'd look just like average guys on campus.

    And they weren't assholes, either. They had some odd habits due to the fact that they never had any women around, but they were nice and polite and considerate. They seemed mostly resigned to their fate. They weren't happy about being single, but they didn't sit around bitching about it either, at least that I ever saw. They seemed to look at getting a girlfriend like winning a million dollars would be. Sure, it'd be nice if it happened, and you wish it would, but it's not going to, so there's no point complaining about it.

    I don't really keep up on all the manosphere stuff, so maybe they have an explanation for it. I don't know. I just know for a fact that the explanation you've provided is just totally false. I imagine that you probably just don't actually have any experience being around guys like that, so I wouldn't expect you to know about it up close, though.

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  144. Thirdeye says:

    CEOs of big tech companies: You almost certainly have women like Ellen Pao trying to screw their way to the top. What are you going to do about it?

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  145. J.Ross says: • Website
    @AndrewR
    Marriage and celibacy not only aren't mutually exclusive, they're probably correlative.

    Yeah but the accusation of incel is that you’re mad that you have been cut off from major life milestones that have uptonow been tak

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  146. J.Ross says: • Website
    @AndrewR
    Marriage and celibacy not only aren't mutually exclusive, they're probably correlative.

    Yeah but the real accusation of incel is that you’re mad that you have been cut off from major life milestones which have up to now been taken for granted, even among the very poor; that’s where the anger comes from, and a married guy with kids (who almost certainly has a house and a decent career) who is neither getting serviced nor cheating cannot have the same anger.
    (Pardon my mis-post above)

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    • Agree: L Woods
    • Replies: @sabril
    Yeah, when an older married (or widowed) guy sees a young couple in love in the park, it makes him happy because it reminds him of his younger days. When an incel sees the same thing, it makes him sad and depressed and angry because it reminds him of what he never had.
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  147. @AnotherDad
    Rosie, i read this. It simply indicates what the red-pillers say--and what normal pre-nonsense people have known for thousands upon thousands of years. Men are primarily attracted to women based on *physical* appearance--essentially fertility cues of one sort or another. (Which makes perfect sense because the whole point of sexual attraction is ... to make babies. Men who had something else in mind--were attracted to women based on those women being old or mis-shapen or already looking like they were pregnant or being really great astronomers--those men's lines died out.)

    In contrast women are attracted to men based some on physique, but primarily on fitness in some larger sense--status, provision, protection, good genes, etc. etc. It's not something that you can actually tell from a picture. (Does Trump deserve Melania? You can't tell by just looking at him, you have to know he's a big shot real estate magnate and self-promoter. He could be an old guy with no retirement savings greeting people at Walmart. In which case, "no".) So women disagree. But if the men's full bio's were there along with income and bank balances, women would agree a lot more about "who's attractive".

    The fact that men mostly agree on who the attractive women are is not detecting "a problem". Rather it's detecting (evolved) reality and debunking the feminist notions that "standards of beauty" are "socially constructed" and other such nonsense. No this is basic evolutionarily driven programming, which *must* exist logically in order for a species using sexual reproduction to propagate.

    Some truth to that. Fashions in body type do change, but scientists looked at ancient Greek and Roman statues, medieval pictures of women with long torsos and short legs, cushiony Renaissance women, boyish flappers, bosomy stars like Monroe, and found one common thread: a small waist to hip ratio. .7 is average, .8 or .9 seen as less desirable, even if the woman is of average or lower than average weight, and an average-weight 1.0 ( straight up and down) will lose to a slightly overweight woman with an hourglass waist or a skinny woman with booty.

    And yes, it’s an instinctive preference for child-bearing hips. Although Marilyn Monroe was never able to become a mother, she had a jaw-dropping .6 ratio, which made her look stunning even in a suit:

    https://goo.gl/images/WK5BrJ

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    • Replies: @Rosie

    Some truth to that.
     
    Maybe, but it hardly matters. The only question is who is inappropriately rejecting whom, the why's and wherefores are utterly beside the point.
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  148. Rosie says:
    @Thea
    I think you are reading them all wrong. It's more about social rejection and the rudeness and hostility than sex .

    Hot prostitutes will sleep with them. But other Attractive women mock them. Teaching girls humility, decency and modesty would go a long way to ending the frustration.

    Hot prostitutes will sleep with them. But other Attractive women mock them. Teaching girls humility, decency and modesty would go a long way to ending the frustration.

    Nah. It’s the sex.

    It is men who need to learn humility. They are the ones who won’t stop chasing women out of their league.

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    • Replies: @mobi

    It is men who need to learn humility.
     
    Followed almost immediately by extinction (ours and yours)
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  149. Rosie says:
    @L Woods
    Society-wrecking female narcissism on full display. Arguing with "her" is pointless, but maybe some of the boomer white knight types hanging around here will finally get it.

    Society-wrecking female narcissism on full display. Arguing with “her” is pointless, but maybe some of the boomer white knight types hanging around here will finally get it.

    Women aren’t particularly narcissistic. You just think we are because you don’t notice nice girls.

    https://digitalcommons.georgiasouthern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1068&context=honors-theses

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  150. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Thea
    How can Incels truly exist alongside prostitution?

    Widespread premarital sex is new and yet single guys didn't go nuts.

    Because meaningless sex with a stranger really is meaningless.
    There are many admissions in leftist social media and highly produced media products where it’s clear that they hung their whole system on sex as soma.

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  151. Rosie says:
    @anon
    They have chosen their lot. Why settle for women who are in their league when they’ve got porn?

    What if the women in their league would rather be with no one at all than with some socially-awkward weirdo who has to work all the time?

    Plus, you're forgetting how Silicon Valley works. The people who work there are mostly men, and they move there from all over the world to take a job there. It's sort of like a Gold Rush camp, where it's a bunch of men going to a place without that many women. So it's entirely possible that there really just aren't enough women to go around in their social circle.

    You could argue that they could always go out with some of the townie types who were already in the area, and maybe they could. But then THOSE guys wouldn't have enough women to go around.

    It's easy to mock, but it seems like a legitimate problem. The Gold Rush solved it with prostitutes, but I doubt that would fly today.

    What if the women in their league would rather be with no one at all than with some socially-awkward weirdo who has to work all the time?

    ‘Twas ever this. I’m never going to support forced prostitution. That’s for sure. I don’t think social awkwardness is the problem. I think it is rather something akin to psychopathy. The manipulative, object-oriented personality that leads men into tech also explains their genuinely dark personalities. That’s my theory anyway. I’m certainly open to correction.

    If I am right, the solution is not forced prostitution as MGTOW advocate, but help for men who struggle to empathize and relate to other human beings.

    Plus, you’re forgetting how Silicon Valley works. The people who work there are mostly men, and they move there from all over the world to take a job there. It’s sort of like a Gold Rush camp, where it’s a bunch of men going to a place without that many women. So it’s entirely possible that there really just aren’t enough women to go around in their social circle.

    There may well be something to this. The MGTOW claim that

    (1) Women demand immigration to create a competitive mating market.
    (2) Women hate productive nerdy guys.

    It would seem to follow that something else is behind high-skill immigration. That something else is greed, of course.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    What's an "object-oriented personality?" Is that like having a closetful of dozens of pairs of shoes? Did you mean rules about having separate sets of cutlery and china depending on who the invited dinner guests are? Sounds toxic
    , @anon
    I’m never going to support forced prostitution.

    What a noble stance to take! Not really what I suggested, though.

    I think it is rather something akin to psychopathy. The manipulative, object-oriented personality that leads men into tech also explains their genuinely dark personalities."

    Uh huh. Well, let's pretend for a minute that this isn't totally deranged.

    It's not like they chose to have that personality, is it? So it's still not the lot they chose.

    If I am right, the solution is not forced prostitution as MGTOW advocate, but help for men who struggle to empathize and relate to other human beings.

    Would this help in being more empathetic be coming from the same people who call them psychopaths? I wonder how well that would work...

    That something else is greed, of course.

    I don't know who ever denied that.
    , @Achmed E. Newman

    The manipulative, object-oriented personality that leads men into tech also explains their genuinely dark personalities. That’s my theory anyway. I’m certainly open to correction.
     
    You got it, Rosie - one correction coming right up.

    Why would you think men who are into ideas and objects rather than people have dark personalities? They just don't get excited about dealing with other people, but are very interested in how things work. There's nothing at all wrong with that.

    At the same time, the urge for sex and the less urgent but still big longing for romance is still there. Because lots of guys don't care that much about the "dealing with people" part, they end up with a big shyness towards girls. They don't really have this with guys and women they don't long for (in "that way") because they just don't care. "Talk with me, don't talk with me - I don't give a rat's ass.". I've been there.

    Because women are almost always not like this, they, including you, may have some idea there is something wrong with these guys. Nope, there's not. You don't understand that lots of people don't need other people. I've never understood the big damn deal about solitary confinement ... especially if they have wireless.
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  152. Anonymous[271] • Disclaimer says:

    Hilarity beyond our forefathers’ wildest hopes. I think it was dimly imagined as a Pao-faced threat to root out & fire all their crimethinking “incel” timebombs, to send The Right Message. Which itself, is not a terribly thought-through prescription (do it on a Friday at 5pm, they say). But instead it reads as an order to put hookers on payroll. Verily she is a bountiful heifer of the lulz.

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  153. sabril says:
    @J.Ross
    Yeah but the real accusation of incel is that you're mad that you have been cut off from major life milestones which have up to now been taken for granted, even among the very poor; that's where the anger comes from, and a married guy with kids (who almost certainly has a house and a decent career) who is neither getting serviced nor cheating cannot have the same anger.
    (Pardon my mis-post above)

    Yeah, when an older married (or widowed) guy sees a young couple in love in the park, it makes him happy because it reminds him of his younger days. When an incel sees the same thing, it makes him sad and depressed and angry because it reminds him of what he never had.

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    • Replies: @L Woods
    Yeah, exactly. Even if you get your act together later in life, you can’t ever replace those lost years. It literally doesn’t matter at all what happens for the rest of your life — that train is gone forever. That pop culture makes such a big thing of these milestones of course makes it even more painful.
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  154. Rosie says:
    @Whiskey
    Agreed and male protection from other male violence and male resources are not prizes to be handed out to women either. See India on how that works.

    More proof of needed that women are the eternal and natural enemy of the best male. Lord of The Flies might create sexy violent alphas but women eventually get it too. See that poor woman who died in India after a brutal assault on the bus.

    Middle class society and safety for women requires majority White population getting their way not ghetto way and having an interest including a woman. Otherwise they won't risk it all to defend some random woman.

    Want White knights? Almost all men have to get some. No man is going to risk death as an incel for some other dudes random woman.

    Like I said you won't like Lord of the Flies.

    Agreed and male protection from other male violence and male resources are not prizes to be handed out to women either. See India on how that works.

    This is why you and your ilk insist that women can’t do anything productive. You know the only way you’re ever going to get sex, which is clearly an obsession for you, is if women have no other options, not even traditional ones like religious orders, teaching, nursing, etc. I am beginning to understand the depths of depravity I’m dealing with here, slowly but surely.

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    • Replies: @Whiskey
    Where did I say women do nothing productive?

    Rather, I criticized your social Darwinism which produces bad outcomes for me. You are a parasitic free rider.

    You want safety and security but like most women both assume it as a natural right with no mutual obligation even to men you do not find hot 99% of us and think playing on the freeway is a smart move.

    Genie is out of the bottle. Purge incels from the workforce and tell them it's all their fault for neither being naturally charismatic nor powerful and they will all take the violence shortcut. As a potential random victim I don't like dying for your tingles.
    , @mobi

    I am beginning to understand the depths of depravity I’m dealing with here, slowly but surely.
     
    Whiskey is famously unrepresentative of the depths of depravity here - so, incorrect.
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  155. Rosie says:
    @Screwtape
    War on men. Hijacking labels to further thier cause. Sure, lets further pile on and ridicule men for “not getting laid”. Lets weaponize their labels they use to attempt to find support and meaning in the only place they can: the dark corners of the net. Chase them further from the light, that should help.

    The lack of compassion for men demonstrated by this sick feminized culture should be striking. Yet everyone is so used to it the only thing that interests the various megaphones is how convenient these catchy new terms are for pushing clicks.

    Id reckon most boys 15-18 qualify as incels. Id also reckon that most men over 18 have gone thru protracted periods of Incel. Most find thier way out of it, but not all. This is not new.

    What is new is how the culture’s open hatred of the average man and favoring the female sexual strategy in all social matters has created a monster. Mating is no longer assortive.

    An incel man is no different than those post-wall washed up tinder sluts that have overplayed their hand in the sexual markets and are now demanding a husband. The are involuntarily unmarried. Yet the media carries their water: “where have all the good men gone”; “man up and marry her”, etc.

    Yet nobody outside of certain urls is taking women to task for being unmarryable.

    Im surprised more of these incels havent popped off. If masculinity is not allowed to naturally flourish in pro-civilizational channels, it will eventually come out against civilization.

    The feminine nature has been perverted to emulate the males; it has gone feral in this culture. And we see the results. Men and women both lose. Incels and cat ladies. Only difference is nobody cares about the plight of men.

    Yet nobody outside of certain urls is taking women to task for being unmarryable.

    The female Hypergamy hoax is collective projection on a massive scale.

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  156. Anonymous[271] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    What if the women in their league would rather be with no one at all than with some socially-awkward weirdo who has to work all the time?
     
    'Twas ever this. I'm never going to support forced prostitution. That's for sure. I don't think social awkwardness is the problem. I think it is rather something akin to psychopathy. The manipulative, object-oriented personality that leads men into tech also explains their genuinely dark personalities. That's my theory anyway. I'm certainly open to correction.

    If I am right, the solution is not forced prostitution as MGTOW advocate, but help for men who struggle to empathize and relate to other human beings.

    Plus, you’re forgetting how Silicon Valley works. The people who work there are mostly men, and they move there from all over the world to take a job there. It’s sort of like a Gold Rush camp, where it’s a bunch of men going to a place without that many women. So it’s entirely possible that there really just aren’t enough women to go around in their social circle.
     
    There may well be something to this. The MGTOW claim that

    (1) Women demand immigration to create a competitive mating market.
    (2) Women hate productive nerdy guys.

    It would seem to follow that something else is behind high-skill immigration. That something else is greed, of course.

    What’s an “object-oriented personality?” Is that like having a closetful of dozens of pairs of shoes? Did you mean rules about having separate sets of cutlery and china depending on who the invited dinner guests are? Sounds toxic

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    • Replies: @Rosie
    It's the person-orientation vs. thing-orientation personality dichotomy.

    http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/1948550612444320

    Thing-orientation is associated with persistence and success in STEM, and also,with disagreeableness. See the section titled "external correlates."

    See also "spheres of control." TO people have a lack of self-efficacy about interpersonal relationships. My own unscientific experience is that these men are manipulative and domineering. They lack the ability to assert their wants and needs in an agreeable way and they have no patience for win-win negotiation and compromise. They default to pulling rank. Remember, thing-oriented people ask,

    "What can I do with this?"
    How is this useful to me?"
    "How does this thing work?
    "Where is the instruction manual?
    "It's not serving its purpose. It's defective."

    Not attractive.

    I know this sounds harsh, but the first thing we have to do is figure out the problem so that we can find a solution. I assure you I have no desire to see these men marry Asians or what have you.
    , @Achmed E. Newman

    What’s an “object-oriented personality?”
     
    That would be where you have different, let's call them "classes" of personalities (the "nerd" class, the "loudmouthed extrovert" class, etc), each with different functions in life, "methods" if you will. These classes of people have many "properties", if I may, just like properties of a material. Individual people could be called "instances" of these personality classes.

    I guess that one puts me squarely into the nerd class, doesn't it? ;-}
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  157. sabril says:
    @Anonymous
    Ridiculous. Of course they are. And high status attractive men are prizes given to attractive women for chaste and respectable behaviour.

    You can't run a stable society unless you control the rewards, whether that be the corner office, the big house or the attractive spouse. If you let the badly behaved win those prizes, you get dystopia.

    Anyway, what’s funny is that women treat themselves as rewards for high-achieving men. Which is fine, but if they resent that role they only have themselves to blame.

    In fact, almost all male behaviors and double-standards that women complain about could be changed in a matter of weeks if women would just vote with their p*ssies.

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    • Replies: @Rosie

    Anyway, what’s funny is that women treat themselves as rewards for high-achieving men. Which is fine, but if they resent that role they only have themselves to blame.

    In fact, almost all male behaviors and double-standards that women complain about could be changed in a matter of weeks if women would just vote with their p*ssies.
     
    It's truly sad that I alone bear the burden of dealing with so much ignorance.

    Look. Women do not treat themselves as prizes. That is complete nonsense. Moreover, we have greatly resented it when we have been forced into marriages against our will, no matter how high status the suitor.

    Stevie Nicks will explain the meaning of young love to you, cynic.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pUW-Ds5DQL8
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  158. Anon[178] • Disclaimer says: • Website
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  159. Rosie says:
    @stillCARealist
    I'm afraid too many of these poor men that the Pao person despises are Indians. Is it okay to insult Indians? They're supposed to remain chaste until marriage, and there aren't anywhere near enough Indian women around for them to marry. Even in India. There was just a long article published in a major rag about the sex imbalance in China and India. All these guys in their 20's and 30's who can't even find a date, let alone a wife. Pao should be looking to help them.

    They’re supposed to remain chaste until marriage, and there aren’t anywhere near enough Indian women around for them to marry. Even in India.

    This is why MGtopia is a logical impossibility. The kinds of misogynistic culture the MGTOW promote eventually leads to female infanticide, once again leaving them without mates.

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    • Replies: @mobi

    This is why MGtopia is a logical impossibility. The kinds of misogynistic culture the MGTOW promote eventually leads to female infanticide, once again leaving them without mates.
     
    Which is why countries with the most entrenched custom of female infanticide are such notoriously underpopulated places!
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  160. Rosie says:
    @Anon
    Back in the Victorian era, Incels got married by spending a lot of time in the parlor of the young woman they were in love with, and taking long walks with her while they discussed life, the universe, and everything. It takes a very long time for a shy young man to get over his shyness in the presence of someone he is in love with, and it takes a lot of exposure for a young woman to see the value in a man who is normally too shy and awkward to talk to her.

    Your average Incel is not a hook-up guy. He is not a one-night-stand guy. He wants a long-term spouse. He doesn't have the nervous system to endure the social stress of one-night stands. That's for extroverts. He likes to kid himself that he does, but he doesn't.

    Incels do badly if they just walk up to a woman they've never talked to and ask her out. She's going to say no. They do better if they get involved in a group activity with someone they're in love with, and repeat the activity with her for several weeks. That gives her a better chance to get to know him. It also gives her a chance to see how he behaves in various social situations. He'll get a leg up if the extroverts in the group are a little nasty, and he's more kind.

    If their corporate slavemasters are working them so hard that they don’t have time to find a spouse, that’s hardly women’s fault.

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  161. Rosie says:
    @Samuel Skinner
    The cause of the belief in hyper-gamy is while the sexual distribution isn't that bad, the virgin distribution is.

    The cause of the belief in hyper-gamy is while the sexual distribution isn’t that bad, the virgin distribution is.

    Cry me a river. Perhaps men should start taking each other to task for pumping and dumping for years on end and then wondering where all the virgins are when they finally decide to settle down.

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    • Replies: @Bel Riose
    Perhaps women should start taking each other to task for misleading men as to what they really desire in a mate.

    After all, men are at least honest about the fact that physical attraction plays a big part in how much desire we have for a woman. Women, however, cannot dare admit that they thrill to a man's dominance, aggression, and high status. After all, that would expose the dark underbelly of feminine desire, wouldn't it ?

    Instead, women tell all and sundry that they like kind, nice, decent men -- and then ignore them and spread their legs for the biggest assholes they can find. With any luck, such women will end up like Shulamith Firestone: dying alone in an apartment, partially eaten by their pet cats. (Incidentally, I can't think of a better fate for a radical Jewish feminist. Can you?)

    Since you so clearly view the world through the lens of gender relations, and in an antagonistic, hostile way, here's a bit of wisdom for you.

    Everything that makes up this world you live in, Rosie -- and I mean everything, including ball-point pens, aluminum, rubber bands, handbags, purses, shoes, light-bulbs, combustion engines, the concept of commercial law, the idea of a trial by jury, print newspapers, the scientific method of inquiry, paper mills, steel mills, jet engines, the process of curing leather, the techniques of mining and forging steel, the cellphone you consult 1,000 times a day, the internet, the chair your undoubtedly fat ass is seated in -- ALL of the things, physical and incorporeal, which make up our civilization -- all of them -- were thought up by men, designed by men, built by men, perfected by men, and maintained and improved by men.

    And white men at that.

    Men! Men, men, men...not women.

    As far as the creation of civilization is concerned, women have merely been along for the ride.

    To proffer a rather crude metaphor: women are nothing more than fish swimming in a sea made by men.

    And now that men have tamed nature, pushed back the wilds, reached into space, and built a civilization which provides your gender with every imaginable comfort -- now, you women step forth and shrill that you are just as capable as a man, and demand that we hand the reins of power over to you.

    Because women have been oppressed, don't you know, and if men would stop holding back these strong empowered women...why, who knows what they might be able to accomplish. In fact the demands and shrill mind-set of feminist nut-jobs like you amount to nothing more than an attempt to hijack a culture and civilization your gender had nothing to do with creating.

    Now please remind yourself that you will always stand in a man's shadow. Then go rent an apartment, and get some cats. A half-dozen felines will suffice, I should think.

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  162. @dwb
    Hint:

    unless the guy in question is pulling a David St Hubbins, the metal detector is not going to catch him.

    David St. Hubbins? Derek Smalls. Please.

    Read More
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  163. Yak-15 says:
    @L Woods
    Legalized prostitution would solve the incel problem quickly and easily. The supposed epidemic of sexual misconduct afflicting the nation would, insofar as it actually exists, diminish dramatically. But of course we can't have that, because muh human trafficking (never mind that the most effective way to end such a phenomenon would be to bring it above board) and because the peons must be made to suffer compliantly as a (sick) matter of principle. The petty, vicious female malice towards low status men and the price fixing machinations of the pussy cartel trump all.

    Have you ever slept with a prostitute? It can be great but I assure you that it does not build self-esteem or improve your perception of women. If anything, it makes things worse.

    Read More
    • Replies: @L Woods
    I’ve slept with tindertutes, so yeah basically. It does have a way of pissing you off further after a brief reprieve, now that you mention it. Like how junk food kicks your appetite into overdrive an hour later. Still, it’s the intent that counts: women clearly believe prostitution would diminish the thirst, or they wouldn’t freak out about it as they do.
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  164. Rosie says:
    @AnotherDad
    Rosie, i read this. It simply indicates what the red-pillers say--and what normal pre-nonsense people have known for thousands upon thousands of years. Men are primarily attracted to women based on *physical* appearance--essentially fertility cues of one sort or another. (Which makes perfect sense because the whole point of sexual attraction is ... to make babies. Men who had something else in mind--were attracted to women based on those women being old or mis-shapen or already looking like they were pregnant or being really great astronomers--those men's lines died out.)

    In contrast women are attracted to men based some on physique, but primarily on fitness in some larger sense--status, provision, protection, good genes, etc. etc. It's not something that you can actually tell from a picture. (Does Trump deserve Melania? You can't tell by just looking at him, you have to know he's a big shot real estate magnate and self-promoter. He could be an old guy with no retirement savings greeting people at Walmart. In which case, "no".) So women disagree. But if the men's full bio's were there along with income and bank balances, women would agree a lot more about "who's attractive".

    The fact that men mostly agree on who the attractive women are is not detecting "a problem". Rather it's detecting (evolved) reality and debunking the feminist notions that "standards of beauty" are "socially constructed" and other such nonsense. No this is basic evolutionarily driven programming, which *must* exist logically in order for a species using sexual reproduction to propagate.

    Which makes perfect sense because the whole point of sexual attraction is … to make babies.

    Your fertility detection mechanisms are not infallible, and your attempts to place male mating preferences above criticism fail even on a theoretical level. Attraction to extreme thinness may or may not have been adaptive in the past, but it certainly is not now.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2442084/Anorexic-model-Georgina-Wilkin-organs-failing-designers-booked-her.html

    In which case, “no”.) So women disagree. But if the men’s full bio’s were there along with income and bank balances, women would agree a lot more about “who’s attractive”.

    Then why do women spread their responses out more equitably on dating sites than men, where presumably full bios are included?

    Try again.

    The fact that men mostly agree on who the attractive women are is not detecting “a problem.

    If you want men to get married rather than rely on porn, then yes it most certainly is a problem.

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    • Replies: @Thea
    Men are not generally attracted to anorexic girls. They are popular only for gay men to use as clothes hangers.

    Likewise, they are not attracted to land whales. If you'd like to see a more even distribution of online dating responses, bring the women all down to a healthy weight.

    Female prospects will soar
    , @Mr. Blank
    Um...I wouldn't use supermodels as evidence of male sexual fancies. Yes, a lot of rich guys want a supermodel on their arm as a status symbol, but supermodels aren't chosen for their profession primarily by straight guys looking to appeal to other straight guys.

    If you want a more accurate idea of straight men's physical ideals, consult porn.
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  165. @Obadiah Binks
    ...guys who don’t “get any” should organize as an official grievance group...


    Both sides normally assume that men, of course, like polygamy. So, they simply clash over whether polygamy is in the best interests of wives. In reality, however, polygamy victimizes men. You never hear about it because few men want to claim this particular kind of victimhood: that of the sexual rejectee.

    I have been looking in vain for 20 years for an article about polygamy that mentioned that for one man to take a second wife means, in the normal course of things, that another man will get no wife at all.

    I have come to believe that this blind spot stems from it being virtually impossible for a man to imagine himself as one of the 149 losers, rather than the one big winner. He might prefer one wife to 150, but his male ego can't allow him to identify with all the men who end up rejected and alone. This psychological quirk creates a reality distortion field in the heads of men.

     

    Steve Sailer, "The Problem with Polygamy"

    I have been looking in vain for 20 years for an article about polygamy that mentioned that for one man to take a second wife means, in the normal course of things, that another man will get no wife at all.

    Does this not have something to do with the propensity of young Muslim men towards violence?

    In a society where polygamy is the norm, rich high-status men get all the women and leave poorer, lower-status, typically younger men with none. This gives rise to sexual frustration among the latter, which can find its outlet either in the “solitary vice” or in the kind of faute-de-mieux homosexual behavior that in the West manifests itself in prisons or single-sex boarding schools. Both these, however, are furtive practices regarded as shameful.

    Islam provides an honorable alternative – martyrdom in jihad, which is rewarded with 72 virgins in the afterlife. Hence the cult of the suicide bomber, the rise of ISIS, and the way in which Islamic societies seem either to fall into chaotic violence or to end in grim tyranny.

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    • Replies: @Rosie

    In a society where polygamy is the norm, rich high-status men get all the women and leave poorer, lower-status, typically younger men with none.
     
    Something tells me the women are less than enthusiastic about this arrangement, but when a few men hoard all the resources, leaving their sexual competitors with no ability to support dependent children, women have little choice but to share.
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  166. Yak-15 says:
    @Anon
    Back in the Victorian era, Incels got married by spending a lot of time in the parlor of the young woman they were in love with, and taking long walks with her while they discussed life, the universe, and everything. It takes a very long time for a shy young man to get over his shyness in the presence of someone he is in love with, and it takes a lot of exposure for a young woman to see the value in a man who is normally too shy and awkward to talk to her.

    Your average Incel is not a hook-up guy. He is not a one-night-stand guy. He wants a long-term spouse. He doesn't have the nervous system to endure the social stress of one-night stands. That's for extroverts. He likes to kid himself that he does, but he doesn't.

    Incels do badly if they just walk up to a woman they've never talked to and ask her out. She's going to say no. They do better if they get involved in a group activity with someone they're in love with, and repeat the activity with her for several weeks. That gives her a better chance to get to know him. It also gives her a chance to see how he behaves in various social situations. He'll get a leg up if the extroverts in the group are a little nasty, and he's more kind.

    This is why so many dorks play coed kickball.

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  167. Rosie says:
    @Rosamond Vincy
    Some truth to that. Fashions in body type do change, but scientists looked at ancient Greek and Roman statues, medieval pictures of women with long torsos and short legs, cushiony Renaissance women, boyish flappers, bosomy stars like Monroe, and found one common thread: a small waist to hip ratio. .7 is average, .8 or .9 seen as less desirable, even if the woman is of average or lower than average weight, and an average-weight 1.0 ( straight up and down) will lose to a slightly overweight woman with an hourglass waist or a skinny woman with booty.

    And yes, it's an instinctive preference for child-bearing hips. Although Marilyn Monroe was never able to become a mother, she had a jaw-dropping .6 ratio, which made her look stunning even in a suit:

    https://goo.gl/images/WK5BrJ

    Some truth to that.

    Maybe, but it hardly matters. The only question is who is inappropriately rejecting whom, the why’s and wherefores are utterly beside the point.

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    • Replies: @Thea
    I think you are somehow confused about some differences between the sexes.

    Men want sex more than women so women can dictate(ration) terms for sex.

    Women want marriage more than men so men can dictate terms.

    Ugly or old of fat women can get sex if they don't require much in exchange. Men have to offer something in exchange (Looks, status, wealth) many a man has been left frustrated and angered over this.

    Men will often sleep with women they don't find attractive enough to have a relationship with and many a woman has been left sad and confused over this.

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  168. Yak-15 says:

    I cannot feel bad for incels. A large amount of their inability to get girls is their refusal to improve themselves.

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  169. anon[200] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    What if the women in their league would rather be with no one at all than with some socially-awkward weirdo who has to work all the time?
     
    'Twas ever this. I'm never going to support forced prostitution. That's for sure. I don't think social awkwardness is the problem. I think it is rather something akin to psychopathy. The manipulative, object-oriented personality that leads men into tech also explains their genuinely dark personalities. That's my theory anyway. I'm certainly open to correction.

    If I am right, the solution is not forced prostitution as MGTOW advocate, but help for men who struggle to empathize and relate to other human beings.

    Plus, you’re forgetting how Silicon Valley works. The people who work there are mostly men, and they move there from all over the world to take a job there. It’s sort of like a Gold Rush camp, where it’s a bunch of men going to a place without that many women. So it’s entirely possible that there really just aren’t enough women to go around in their social circle.
     
    There may well be something to this. The MGTOW claim that

    (1) Women demand immigration to create a competitive mating market.
    (2) Women hate productive nerdy guys.

    It would seem to follow that something else is behind high-skill immigration. That something else is greed, of course.

    I’m never going to support forced prostitution.

    What a noble stance to take! Not really what I suggested, though.

    I think it is rather something akin to psychopathy. The manipulative, object-oriented personality that leads men into tech also explains their genuinely dark personalities.

    Uh huh. Well, let’s pretend for a minute that this isn’t totally deranged.

    It’s not like they chose to have that personality, is it? So it’s still not the lot they chose.

    If I am right, the solution is not forced prostitution as MGTOW advocate, but help for men who struggle to empathize and relate to other human beings.

    Would this help in being more empathetic be coming from the same people who call them psychopaths? I wonder how well that would work…

    That something else is greed, of course.

    I don’t know who ever denied that.

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    • Replies: @Rosie

    It’s not like they chose to have that personality, is it? So it’s still not the lot they chose.
     
    They chose to pursue women out of their league, whom they will never get, owing in part to the fact that attractive girls get attention from men who have decent personalities and therefore a basis of comparison.
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  170. Tyrion 2 says:
    @WHAT
    You assume wrong. A whore that has "seen it all" will find a client that has a problem even getting it up pitiful and annoying, with the accompanying intercourse quality, if it even happens. Not everybody can do the deed after a couple of something strong as well.

    Cue even more depression for the nerd either way.

    No, that is her preferred customer, obviously.

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  171. @El Dato

    Ellen Pao (born 1970) is an American investment partner at Kapor Capital, the Chief Diversity and Inclusion Officer at the Kapor Center for Social Impact, and co-founder of the diversity consulting non-profit organization Project Include. Previously she was the interim chief executive officer of social media technology company Reddit, an investment partner at Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers, a Board director at Flipboard, and a corporate attorney.
     
    I hear Elon Musk is looking for volunteers for a Mars trip.

    I’m all for that if it’s a one-way trip.

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  172. Anonymous[376] • Disclaimer says:

    He’s 6’8″ and lanky (if you catch my drift) and he’s an MBA. He’s probably been drowning in tail his whole life. I imagine he has trouble empathizing with the whole PUA, MRA, incel, etc. scene and thus isn’t comfortable writing about it.

    I”ve never met the guy, but I’ve known/know plenty of tall guys who aint killing it. Tallness is just polish and some turds are just unpolishable.

    Again, I’m not suggesting anything about Steve, but it wouldn’t surprise me if he was one of those tall guys that are a little dweeby with the ladies. OTOH, it wouldn’t surprise if he was a lady-killer.

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  173. Rosie says:
    @Crawfurdmuir

    I have been looking in vain for 20 years for an article about polygamy that mentioned that for one man to take a second wife means, in the normal course of things, that another man will get no wife at all.
     
    Does this not have something to do with the propensity of young Muslim men towards violence?

    In a society where polygamy is the norm, rich high-status men get all the women and leave poorer, lower-status, typically younger men with none. This gives rise to sexual frustration among the latter, which can find its outlet either in the "solitary vice" or in the kind of faute-de-mieux homosexual behavior that in the West manifests itself in prisons or single-sex boarding schools. Both these, however, are furtive practices regarded as shameful.

    Islam provides an honorable alternative - martyrdom in jihad, which is rewarded with 72 virgins in the afterlife. Hence the cult of the suicide bomber, the rise of ISIS, and the way in which Islamic societies seem either to fall into chaotic violence or to end in grim tyranny.

    In a society where polygamy is the norm, rich high-status men get all the women and leave poorer, lower-status, typically younger men with none.

    Something tells me the women are less than enthusiastic about this arrangement, but when a few men hoard all the resources, leaving their sexual competitors with no ability to support dependent children, women have little choice but to share.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Whiskey
    This is why Germany was filled with young White men holding refugees welcome signs.

    Oh wait it was all aging cat lady types wanting violent young men.

    This is why every sensible society restrains female hyoergamy
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  174. Whoever says: • Website

    Getting the shy guys and the wallflowers together has always been a concern. In the past, it seemed society worked to achieve this. But in today’s FU-IGM world … not so much.
    Here’s a radio play from 60 years ago about what nowadays we would, I suppose, call a dating app, the science fiction series X Minus One episode, “Gray Flannel Armor,” first broadcast on January 9, 1958.
    The tribulations of a young man trying to get a date are played for humor, but the story shows that not much has changed in male-female relationships over the decades, just how we regard those who aren’t natural-born players.

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  175. L Woods says:
    @Anon
    Back in the Victorian era, Incels got married by spending a lot of time in the parlor of the young woman they were in love with, and taking long walks with her while they discussed life, the universe, and everything. It takes a very long time for a shy young man to get over his shyness in the presence of someone he is in love with, and it takes a lot of exposure for a young woman to see the value in a man who is normally too shy and awkward to talk to her.

    Your average Incel is not a hook-up guy. He is not a one-night-stand guy. He wants a long-term spouse. He doesn't have the nervous system to endure the social stress of one-night stands. That's for extroverts. He likes to kid himself that he does, but he doesn't.

    Incels do badly if they just walk up to a woman they've never talked to and ask her out. She's going to say no. They do better if they get involved in a group activity with someone they're in love with, and repeat the activity with her for several weeks. That gives her a better chance to get to know him. It also gives her a chance to see how he behaves in various social situations. He'll get a leg up if the extroverts in the group are a little nasty, and he's more kind.

    That’s a nice thought, but it doesn’t work that way in real life anymore. If it did, incels wouldn’t be incels. In fact, the most aggressive extroverts take all in group settings even more so than in other mediums. The biggest bullshitter will beat an introvert to the punch long before the latter has the opportunity to slowly develop anything.

    As for the nerves: I suggest drinking heavily. It never really gets fun, but it does get done. It’s a psychopath’s world after all.

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  176. Rosie says:

    While so-called “men’s rights advocates” talk about how much they hate women for not wanting to be forced into prostitution, will anyone spare a thought for poor Mr. Ramos? He’s going to jail for defending White mens’ constitutional rights, even though he himself is not a White identitarian, and possibly not even White.

    http://www.occidentaldissent.com/2018/05/03/alex-michael-ramos-found-guilty-in-charlottesville/

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  177. Silva says:
    @njguy73
    How about guaranteed job security for incel tech workers who volunteer to undergo chemical castration?

    Or, and I'll keep suggesting this until it happens: secular, government-regulated monastic orders for incels who would carry out government functions in exchange for basic provisions. And those Neo-Monks would be given societal esteem so they won't feel the need to strike back.

    I'm tired of all this half-assed, half-measure talk. It's the Fourth Turning. Let's start tearing down old institutions are replacing them with new ones.

    You could hand the government to the people who won’t steal to leave to their children.

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  178. Thea says:
    @Rosie

    Which makes perfect sense because the whole point of sexual attraction is … to make babies.
     
    Your fertility detection mechanisms are not infallible, and your attempts to place male mating preferences above criticism fail even on a theoretical level. Attraction to extreme thinness may or may not have been adaptive in the past, but it certainly is not now.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2442084/Anorexic-model-Georgina-Wilkin-organs-failing-designers-booked-her.html


    In which case, “no”.) So women disagree. But if the men’s full bio’s were there along with income and bank balances, women would agree a lot more about “who’s attractive”.
     
    Then why do women spread their responses out more equitably on dating sites than men, where presumably full bios are included?

    Try again.


    The fact that men mostly agree on who the attractive women are is not detecting “a problem.
     
    If you want men to get married rather than rely on porn, then yes it most certainly is a problem.

    Men are not generally attracted to anorexic girls. They are popular only for gay men to use as clothes hangers.

    Likewise, they are not attracted to land whales. If you’d like to see a more even distribution of online dating responses, bring the women all down to a healthy weight.

    Female prospects will soar

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rosie

    Likewise, they are not attracted to land whales. If you’d like to see a more even distribution of online dating responses, bring the women all down to a healthy weight.

    Female prospects will soar
     
    That's not my problem and not my responsibility. If a "land whale" is what they can get, but they refuse, that is their own fault.
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  179. Mr. Blank says:
    @Rosie

    Which makes perfect sense because the whole point of sexual attraction is … to make babies.
     
    Your fertility detection mechanisms are not infallible, and your attempts to place male mating preferences above criticism fail even on a theoretical level. Attraction to extreme thinness may or may not have been adaptive in the past, but it certainly is not now.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2442084/Anorexic-model-Georgina-Wilkin-organs-failing-designers-booked-her.html


    In which case, “no”.) So women disagree. But if the men’s full bio’s were there along with income and bank balances, women would agree a lot more about “who’s attractive”.
     
    Then why do women spread their responses out more equitably on dating sites than men, where presumably full bios are included?

    Try again.


    The fact that men mostly agree on who the attractive women are is not detecting “a problem.
     
    If you want men to get married rather than rely on porn, then yes it most certainly is a problem.

    Um…I wouldn’t use supermodels as evidence of male sexual fancies. Yes, a lot of rich guys want a supermodel on their arm as a status symbol, but supermodels aren’t chosen for their profession primarily by straight guys looking to appeal to other straight guys.

    If you want a more accurate idea of straight men’s physical ideals, consult porn.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rosie

    If you want a more accurate idea of straight men’s physical ideals, consult porn.
     
    If you think supermodels are unhealthy and/or unattractive, you should make it a point to speak up. We already know that men's physical ideas are subject to conditioning, unless you think foot-binding is attractive, that is.

    If you want a woman who looks like a porn star post-partum, prepare to shell out big bucks for plastic surgery.

    Or you could just insist she starve herself nearly to death.

    https://www.google.com/amp/www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4021446/amp/Melbourne-woman-starved-boyfriend-wanted-look-like-PORN-STAR.html#ampshare=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4021446/Melbourne-woman-starved-boyfriend-wanted-look-like-PORN-STAR.html

    , @Anon
    Fashion models only appear in women’s fashion magazines. Unless a man works as a photographer or in fashion somewhere I don’t see how he would come in contact with models.

    With E European immigration we’re getting a lot of tall thin women and men and their children.

    Fashion models are the ultra tall skinny
    Print and product models are the normal slim.
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  180. Forbes says:
    @Rosamond Vincy
    Seriously? He looks like a pimp, so who would go for that besides the kind of females who work for pimps?

    It’s a little over the top these days–but 5-10 years ago, not so much. It’s a conversation starter. Young women can’t help themselves, their curiosity gets the better of them. If it’s “outrageous,” they have to go and find out “what’s the deal?” It takes balls and confidence to pull it off–and that’s what 20-something women look for.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Autochthon

    If it’s “outrageous,” they have to go and find out “what’s the deal?” It takes balls and confidence to pull it off–and that’s what 20-something women look for.
     
    A very attractive lady-friend of my wasted youth confided after we'd been dating awhile that she "had to" come talk to the guy wearing the "big feather earring" at a party (think of the kind of stuff Steve Vai or the guys in Kiss may have worn in the eighties...). Many a person had ridiculed me for the earring, and I wore it not to attract women but because I didn't care a bit what anyone thought of me or my jewely...which attitude, of course, will often attract ladies incidentally.

    He looks like a pimp, so who would go for that besides the kind of females who work for pimps?
     
    Attracting the kinds of ladies in question is often a feature, not a bug, for this type of dude.
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  181. Forbes says:
    @Rosie

    Basically the current–feminist–societal organization is a pretty crappy one for a significant fraction of the men (white and Asian) who have the mental skills to actually do the real productive labor which produces the comfy life for everyone.
     
    Like Grouch Marx, they won't join a club that will have them as a member. They have chosen their lot. Why settle for women who are in their league when they've got porn?

    BTW, women aren't prizes to be handed out to men for good behavior.

    While women chose, and men are chosen, the dilemma (ticking clock) remains for women when all the good men are taken…because you waited to have some fun and ride the carousel…

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    • Replies: @Rosie
    Your point? I'm happily married, so none of this is my problem.
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  182. Whiskey says: • Website
    @Rosie

    Agreed and male protection from other male violence and male resources are not prizes to be handed out to women either. See India on how that works.
     
    This is why you and your ilk insist that women can't do anything productive. You know the only way you're ever going to get sex, which is clearly an obsession for you, is if women have no other options, not even traditional ones like religious orders, teaching, nursing, etc. I am beginning to understand the depths of depravity I'm dealing with here, slowly but surely.

    Where did I say women do nothing productive?

    Rather, I criticized your social Darwinism which produces bad outcomes for me. You are a parasitic free rider.

    You want safety and security but like most women both assume it as a natural right with no mutual obligation even to men you do not find hot 99% of us and think playing on the freeway is a smart move.

    Genie is out of the bottle. Purge incels from the workforce and tell them it’s all their fault for neither being naturally charismatic nor powerful and they will all take the violence shortcut. As a potential random victim I don’t like dying for your tingles.

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    • Replies: @Rosie

    You want safety and security but like most women both assume it as a natural right with no mutual obligation even to men you do not find hot 99% of us and think playing on the freeway is a smart move.
     
    Your psychopathy is showing again. Why on Earth would I not assume "safety and security" as a natural right"? I do believe I implicitly acknowledged that women have a responsibility to contribute, did I not? I just don't agree with forced prostitution, which is clearly your preference. (Marry someone you don't love for "safety and security.")

    Genie is out of the bottle. Purge incels from the workforce and tell them it’s all their fault for neither being naturally charismatic nor powerful and they will all take the violence shortcut.
     
    (1) I never said incels should be purged from the workforce.
    (2) You don't have to be either charismatic or powerful, unless by "charismatic" you mean minimally respectful of other people.
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  183. @Rosie

    Is this something you seriously believe?
     
    What I believe is irrelevant. We're not talking about religion. We're talking about questions of empirical fact.

    And yes, this is something I actually believe. I have seen women take a shine to guys based on all sorts of different qualities. Sense of humor, intellect, and musical ability are the most important.

    I have seen women take a shine to guys based on all sorts of different qualities. Sense of humor, intellect, and musical ability are the most important.

    Your selection of anecdotes is disingenuous. I have seen a man who won the Fields Medal. It doesn’t mean that this is a typical attribute of men.

    In my own social circle the men who are most attractive to women are the ones who are confident, ebullient, thick-skinned, irrationally self-confident – almost irrespective of their financial circumstances, height, appearance, or fidelity.

    Ellen Pao probably just wants more attractive men in tech workplaces. Incels are, by definition, not attractive, and she wants them replaced by hunkier specimens, irrespective of their productivity. The fortunes of her company do not matter – which chimes with her mediocre track record as a CEO.

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    • Replies: @Rosie

    Your selection of anecdotes is disingenuous. I have seen a man who won the Fields Medal. It doesn’t mean that this is a typical attribute of men.
     
    Irrelevant. Women like funny guys even though they are not famous comedians. I suspect this is an evolved preference for men who are less likely to kill them or their children. Humor is a coping mechanism.

    Same with musicians and intellectuals.

    Ellen Pao probably just wants more attractive men in tech workplaces.
     
    I could care less what Ellen Pao wants. I do insist that MGTOWs stop slandering and threatening women, though.
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  184. Whiskey says: • Website
    @Rosie

    In a society where polygamy is the norm, rich high-status men get all the women and leave poorer, lower-status, typically younger men with none.
     
    Something tells me the women are less than enthusiastic about this arrangement, but when a few men hoard all the resources, leaving their sexual competitors with no ability to support dependent children, women have little choice but to share.

    This is why Germany was filled with young White men holding refugees welcome signs.

    Oh wait it was all aging cat lady types wanting violent young men.

    This is why every sensible society restrains female hyoergamy

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    • Replies: @Rosie
    It's not our fault the Germans hate themselves, Whiskey. That's your fault. I know you are trying to convince people that it's actually all women's fault that men kill and humiliate each other, but at least I am not that stupid.
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  185. Rosie says:
    @Mr. Blank
    Um...I wouldn't use supermodels as evidence of male sexual fancies. Yes, a lot of rich guys want a supermodel on their arm as a status symbol, but supermodels aren't chosen for their profession primarily by straight guys looking to appeal to other straight guys.

    If you want a more accurate idea of straight men's physical ideals, consult porn.

    If you want a more accurate idea of straight men’s physical ideals, consult porn.

    If you think supermodels are unhealthy and/or unattractive, you should make it a point to speak up. We already know that men’s physical ideas are subject to conditioning, unless you think foot-binding is attractive, that is.

    If you want a woman who looks like a porn star post-partum, prepare to shell out big bucks for plastic surgery.

    Or you could just insist she starve herself nearly to death.

    https://www.google.com/amp/www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4021446/amp/Melbourne-woman-starved-boyfriend-wanted-look-like-PORN-STAR.html#ampshare=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4021446/Melbourne-woman-starved-boyfriend-wanted-look-like-PORN-STAR.html

    Read More
    • Replies: @fish2
    I think the sheer popularity of BBW porn online should put this idea that men find anorexia attractive to rest. Sounds to me like conditioning has a lot more effect on what men say they like as opposed to the reality.

    I was going to make a long post about what I, a former incel who dealt with the extremely screwed up dating world for modern young people (especially young males), discovered and found out (it's a lot more complex and grey than any one ideological bent would have it), and what I did about it, but... really, looking at what this thread has turned into, I ain't in the mood now. Going to go to prepare for meeting my girlfriend tomorrow.

    , @Mr. Blank
    Speak up? I have spoken up over the years, repeatedly, as have other men. It's not hard at all to find straight men who lament the malign influence of waif-thin supermodels on our beauty standards. But, again, the people who make such decisions don't really care what straight dudes think.

    I once asked a female acquaintance connected to the fashion industry to explain this. Her response: "They want you to look at the clothes, not the girls. If the models were all stacked, all you guys would pay attention to is their cleavage."

    My point is just that if you want to see what straight dudes think is hot, consult people whose job it is to sell stuff to straight dudes. They will tell you they have no time for girls who look like famine victims.
    , @Anon
    Chinese men were conditioned into thinking foot binding was supremely sexy and beautiful. Part was Han resistance against the Manchus. But Han men paid a fortune for a foot bound wife, the supreme status symbol.

    Bound foot were very sexy. The foot curled into a little bundle. The bundle was perfect for ejaculation.

    Medieval Japanese women painted their teeth black. Long black hair, white white make up and red lipstick are pretty I suppose, but black teeth?

    Men are weird And so are women

    Anything can be achieved with clever marketing
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  186. fish2 says:
    @Rosamond Vincy
    "What are you going to do about it?"

    Provide company field trips to brothels?

    There have always been frustrated old bachelors and frustrated old maids. Literature has examined this as a socio-economic issue, but when did it become a safety issue?

    With Elliott Rodger.

    We live in a fundamentally stupid world.

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  187. Handel says:
    @Anon
    Back in the Victorian era, Incels got married by spending a lot of time in the parlor of the young woman they were in love with, and taking long walks with her while they discussed life, the universe, and everything. It takes a very long time for a shy young man to get over his shyness in the presence of someone he is in love with, and it takes a lot of exposure for a young woman to see the value in a man who is normally too shy and awkward to talk to her.

    Your average Incel is not a hook-up guy. He is not a one-night-stand guy. He wants a long-term spouse. He doesn't have the nervous system to endure the social stress of one-night stands. That's for extroverts. He likes to kid himself that he does, but he doesn't.

    Incels do badly if they just walk up to a woman they've never talked to and ask her out. She's going to say no. They do better if they get involved in a group activity with someone they're in love with, and repeat the activity with her for several weeks. That gives her a better chance to get to know him. It also gives her a chance to see how he behaves in various social situations. He'll get a leg up if the extroverts in the group are a little nasty, and he's more kind.

    Your average Incel is not a hook-up guy. He is not a one-night-stand guy. He wants a long-term spouse. He doesn’t have the nervous system to endure the social stress of one-night stands. That’s for extroverts. He likes to kid himself that he does, but he doesn’t.

    I am sorry, but I don’t think you understand what an ‘incel’ is. Are you confusing ‘incel’ with introvert?

    Incels are involuntarily celibate. Majority rank at the bottom of the barrel. On attractiveness scales, think 2/10, or below. They don’t have status, charisma, or anything else to make them desirable. To make matters worse, they are mentally damaged from years of bullying in public schools, where their peers looked at them with contempt.

    Your advice is sound for a small subset of these ‘incel’ men, specifically those with avoidant personalities who get anxious / shy around women, but it is old-fashioned I’m afraid. It would hardly work in today’s fast-paced sexual marketplace.

    Now, how do you help these people? They are leftovers. Nobody wants them. They know it. And while society may benefit from their labor, it is unclear who/what they are working towards.

    I agree that getting to know someone takes time, and with enough time spent together, perhaps a female might be interested, but let’s not kid ourselves. Incel men went through a decade of school, and another four/five years of college without a kiss. They are literally kissless virgins who have not had female friends through decades of socialization in a shared environment. You may find it hard to believe, but these people really exist! I assure you! One of my best friends… prime example… He makes 80k/yr in IT, but he is mentally screwed up. Girls don’t look at him. He is awkward. He is a kissless virgin.

    And here’s the sad part: I don’t think you or I can really help these people! This generation was born before the internet era and still grew up believing that if they worked hard and had a career, that they might perhaps find a modest girl who would be willing to settle on them, but those times are over. Hypergamy and the Tinder/toxic hook-up culture has killed off any hopes for the Incel. Outside of mail-order brides and SE Asia, they are screwed, and they know it.

    A woman today would much rather choose the hook-up culture through Facebook/Instagram/Tinder apps than to date such a man. And there are few consequences to pursuing that lifestyle. Pregnancy is one consequence, but is it all that bad? She can be in her teens and give birth out of wedlock, we see this frequently. But it is no problem for the single mom. After all, the state is always there to help father and raise the kid.

    FACT: Incels are not needed by society. If they are lucky, their mother loves them…

    … and it is anyone’s guess as to why there are so few killings by a deranged subset of these individuals. They never get any respect.

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    • Replies: @Rosie

    They don’t have status, charisma, or anything else to make them desirable. To make matters worse, they are mentally damaged from years of bullying in public schools, where their peers looked at them with contempt.
     
    I quite agree with this. Unfortunately, when women teachers try to crack down on bullying, they're accused of feminizing boys or some such. I suppose perhaps they are, but then it doesn't make sense to blame those same women for the results of the laissez-faire approach.
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  188. Dissident says:
    @Rosie
    Come to think of it, the MGTOWs and other thot-screechers constantly call women "whores," when in fact the substance of their real complaint is that we are not whores. Since our only real worth is our ability to provide sexual services, we should be forced to do that in order to earn our keep.

    If we assume that feminism is indeed responsible for the "incel" plight, then that would imply that in previous eras, women would have married these men for a meal ticket. One could argue that this was not prostitution, because it came along with a promise of lifetime support. In my view, that doesn't mean transactional marriage wasn't prostitution, but only that women were fairly compensated for their services. As I understand it, the MGTOWs want to not only force women into prostitution going forward, but this without restoring the traditional right of lifetime support. We'd be not just whores, but two-bit streetwalkers.

    Of course, this arrangement actually would create incels, because serial monogamy is just polygamy by another name. If girls understand that they are at-will prostitutes, of course they are going to try to get the best they can, while they can, even if that means stealing someone else's husband.

    the MGTOWs and other thot-screechers constantly call women “whores,” when in fact the substance of their real complaint is that we are not whores.

    Yes, I’ve noted that for some time. In a thread from not long ago, a commenter wrote something to the effect of,
    A man wants a good girl who will be bad for him only. A woman wants a bad boy who will be good for her only.

    In a similar vein, consider how many people use references to certain sex acts as degrading insults, yet apparently see no contradiction in expecting someone who they claim to be their true love to perform those very same acts.

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  189. fish2 says:
    @Rosie

    If you want a more accurate idea of straight men’s physical ideals, consult porn.
     
    If you think supermodels are unhealthy and/or unattractive, you should make it a point to speak up. We already know that men's physical ideas are subject to conditioning, unless you think foot-binding is attractive, that is.

    If you want a woman who looks like a porn star post-partum, prepare to shell out big bucks for plastic surgery.

    Or you could just insist she starve herself nearly to death.

    https://www.google.com/amp/www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4021446/amp/Melbourne-woman-starved-boyfriend-wanted-look-like-PORN-STAR.html#ampshare=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4021446/Melbourne-woman-starved-boyfriend-wanted-look-like-PORN-STAR.html

    I think the sheer popularity of BBW porn online should put this idea that men find anorexia attractive to rest. Sounds to me like conditioning has a lot more effect on what men say they like as opposed to the reality.

    I was going to make a long post about what I, a former incel who dealt with the extremely screwed up dating world for modern young people (especially young males), discovered and found out (it’s a lot more complex and grey than any one ideological bent would have it), and what I did about it, but… really, looking at what this thread has turned into, I ain’t in the mood now. Going to go to prepare for meeting my girlfriend tomorrow.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon
    I was going to make a long post about what I, a former incel who dealt with the extremely screwed up dating world for modern young people (especially young males), discovered and found out (it’s a lot more complex and grey than any one ideological bent would have it),

    If you learned something, I think you ought to post it. After the dozens of comments about men and their sinister motives, it would be interesting to know just what your perspective on this issue is.
    , @Rosie

    I think the sheer popularity of BBW porn online should put this idea that men find anorexia attractive to rest. Sounds to me like conditioning has a lot more effect on what men say they like as opposed to the reality.
     
    Still no acknowledgement of the effect on impressionable girls.
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  190. Pericles says:
    @James Bowery
    Tech colleges have high male to female ratios. Imposing this kind of environment on young men during such formative years is abuse and does damage that reaches beyond their own sexual development.

    Of course, the dimensions of the assault on masculinity in general are so numerous that it's rather foolish to focus on one dimension and lose sight of the bigger picture: parasitic castration of most of the population -- not just males -- characteristic of the evolution of eusociality, such as occurs in the culture of group integrity. Civil society isn't as far along in this evolution as are some insects and the naked mole rat, but it is clearly headed there.

    Tech colleges have high male to female ratios. Imposing this kind of environment on young men during such formative years is abuse and does damage that reaches beyond their own sexual development.

    One clever university I visited had located the nursing school right next to engineering.

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  191. Mr. Blank says:
    @Rosie

    If you want a more accurate idea of straight men’s physical ideals, consult porn.
     
    If you think supermodels are unhealthy and/or unattractive, you should make it a point to speak up. We already know that men's physical ideas are subject to conditioning, unless you think foot-binding is attractive, that is.

    If you want a woman who looks like a porn star post-partum, prepare to shell out big bucks for plastic surgery.

    Or you could just insist she starve herself nearly to death.

    https://www.google.com/amp/www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4021446/amp/Melbourne-woman-starved-boyfriend-wanted-look-like-PORN-STAR.html#ampshare=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4021446/Melbourne-woman-starved-boyfriend-wanted-look-like-PORN-STAR.html

    Speak up? I have spoken up over the years, repeatedly, as have other men. It’s not hard at all to find straight men who lament the malign influence of waif-thin supermodels on our beauty standards. But, again, the people who make such decisions don’t really care what straight dudes think.

    I once asked a female acquaintance connected to the fashion industry to explain this. Her response: “They want you to look at the clothes, not the girls. If the models were all stacked, all you guys would pay attention to is their cleavage.”

    My point is just that if you want to see what straight dudes think is hot, consult people whose job it is to sell stuff to straight dudes. They will tell you they have no time for girls who look like famine victims.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Each to his own. Skinny skinny skinny is very rare. That’s why they are paid so much.

    If the ideal fashion model were 5’4 130 pounds models would make minimum wage.

    Anything can be done with marketing.
    Look at Kim Kardashian. Most of the sisters are in normal range but Kim’s thighs are monstrous. The oldest sister refused to pose nude and went off to college and a somewhat normal life.

    Mamma pimp Kris had to do what she could with Kim’s bizarre body, it being illegal to make porn with the under 18 daughters.

    And it worked.

    , @Joe Stalin
    The old "Hawaiian Tropic" swim wear contestants are probably what normal men consider attractive in terms body types.

    https://www.gettyimages.com/photos/hawaiian-tropic-models?sort=mostpopular&mediatype=photography&phrase=hawaiian%20tropic%20models
    , @Rosie
    Fair enough. Still, I don't hear much in the Right about this, which is unfortunate, because girls cannot read your minds. They see what they see on the idiotbox and figure that is what society considers beautiful. Why would anyone be surprised if they say it's not worth the effort, or even make a conscious decision to be rebel as ostentatiously as possible?

    BTW, I'm not at all sure that explanation is true. I suspect more sinister motives, though that is really besides the point.

    It also doesn't help that the Right seems to have developed an allergy to anything protective or nurturing towards children and youth. This is of course a symptom of gender imbalance. The alt-Right doesn't need women per session, but at a minimum they need to listen to women.

    Back to my point, when girls start developing in middle school, teachers do nothing while little boys ruthlessly harass and mock us for being "fat." The pro-bullying Right seems not to care what sort of damage this does to girls, and the rage that comes after the pain.

    Still, I'm not blaming you for this. I'm just pointing out that the left is not wrong about everything all the time.

    You seem nice. Can you explain to me why istevers keep calling me a female impersonator? It seems to me if I was going to do any impersonating, it would be in the other direction, given that I am trying to persuade men who only respect their own.
    , @Anon
    You’ve never seen a model or an actress in your life. What kind of man reads women’s fashion magazines anyway? Are you gay?
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  192. I once knew a guy, “Jack,” who worked at a high-tech company, who was trying to get into the pants of another female worker OUTSIDE of the company.

    The next day his supervisor was telling him about this female was undesirous of his amorous attentions.

    The woman involved the Company management even though he made no moves on her INSIDE the company premises of activities.

    So “incels” even get Austlanders sicked on them by women they haven’t bedded yet.

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  193. Anon[257] • Disclaimer says:
    @anon
    They have chosen their lot. Why settle for women who are in their league when they’ve got porn?

    What if the women in their league would rather be with no one at all than with some socially-awkward weirdo who has to work all the time?

    Plus, you're forgetting how Silicon Valley works. The people who work there are mostly men, and they move there from all over the world to take a job there. It's sort of like a Gold Rush camp, where it's a bunch of men going to a place without that many women. So it's entirely possible that there really just aren't enough women to go around in their social circle.

    You could argue that they could always go out with some of the townie types who were already in the area, and maybe they could. But then THOSE guys wouldn't have enough women to go around.

    It's easy to mock, but it seems like a legitimate problem. The Gold Rush solved it with prostitutes, but I doubt that would fly today.

    The gold rush prostitutes only lasted as prostitutes about 3 months before some guy decided to buy her sex and housekeeping services for life on holy matrimony.

    That’s why the Chinese & Japanese brothel keepers kept the girls locked up.

    There’s a story that a group of Chilean pimps chartered a ship, loaded it up with women and thought thry’d make their fortune in San Francisco.

    Most of the girls found husbands in just a few weeks

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  194. Anon[257] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mr. Blank
    Speak up? I have spoken up over the years, repeatedly, as have other men. It's not hard at all to find straight men who lament the malign influence of waif-thin supermodels on our beauty standards. But, again, the people who make such decisions don't really care what straight dudes think.

    I once asked a female acquaintance connected to the fashion industry to explain this. Her response: "They want you to look at the clothes, not the girls. If the models were all stacked, all you guys would pay attention to is their cleavage."

    My point is just that if you want to see what straight dudes think is hot, consult people whose job it is to sell stuff to straight dudes. They will tell you they have no time for girls who look like famine victims.

    Each to his own. Skinny skinny skinny is very rare. That’s why they are paid so much.

    If the ideal fashion model were 5’4 130 pounds models would make minimum wage.

    Anything can be done with marketing.
    Look at Kim Kardashian. Most of the sisters are in normal range but Kim’s thighs are monstrous. The oldest sister refused to pose nude and went off to college and a somewhat normal life.

    Mamma pimp Kris had to do what she could with Kim’s bizarre body, it being illegal to make porn with the under 18 daughters.

    And it worked.

    Read More
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  195. fish2 says:
    @Tyrion 2

    Hiring a prostitute still has the accompanying performance anxiety
     
    I assume most prostitutes would find that sweet. It can only be preferable to the attitude their other customers likely show.

    Also, if you're getting performance anxiety with a girl who is paid to have sex with you and has probably seen it all then your problems run deep. Either tell her or have a few drinks first.

    not always legally safe
     
    It is perfectly legal in the UK. The reason is not because of 'progressive' reasons but simply because it is all but impossible to prove that your sexual transaction was for money.

    In all places where sex between strangers is not illegal, prostitution is de facto legal. (The line between the two is very blurry and in some countries it even may depend how the girl feels the next morning.)

    Wouldn’t a doughy nerd just invite swindling attempts, at the very least
     
    How are they going to get swindled? I assume the doughy nerd knows what sexual intercourse is and therefore if the prostitute has done her job?

    The biggest issue is that the doughy nerd is likely to fall in love with the prostitute, which is pitiful.

    I would also like to say that I neither use nor advocate visiting prostitutes. It is a desperate option when just getting a grip should be first. The only other alternative if you get to this stage is arranged marriage. There are companies that will do this for you too.

    I’ve occasionally contemplated this in the “what would I do as an absolute dictator of the United States?” moments. But as other commentators have pointed out and as I know from experience, the stereotypical incel (there are several types, but let’s go with the most common image of the Aspergery tech geek) isn’t inclined to casual sex, for reasons ranging from personality to their typical activities of interest. I’m not saying organized, legal, and strictly voluntary prostitution couldn’t be useful in other ways, mind, but this wouldn’t be the cure-all for this specific issue. It certainly doesn’t help that they are constantly told to have empathy with those complaining about getting too much attention when they themselves struggle to get any.

    (Whoever said courtship was easy? I think American pop culture’s hyper-obsession, almost high-school like, with relationships seriously skews both gender’s perceptions of what is normal.)

    One thing I’d recommend to STEM type geeks is to check out the more female heavy doctoral departments-especially things like biology or chemical engineering, but also linguistics, history, anything that takes serious intellectual effort-where they can find more women who share, among other things, their scientific curiosity. If they are fellow introverts, they share romantic tastes, if they are an extrovert, they might end up creating a weird “let’s improve each other” exotic symmetry.

    Read More
    • Replies: @njguy73

    One thing I’d recommend to STEM type geeks is to check out the more female heavy doctoral departments-especially things like biology or chemical engineering, but also linguistics, history, anything that takes serious intellectual effort-where they can find more women who share, among other things, their scientific curiosity. If they are fellow introverts, they share romantic tastes, if they are an extrovert, they might end up creating a weird “let’s improve each other” exotic symmetry.
     
    STEM type geeks do that. I know several married couples like that.

    Incels don't do that. Incels consider checking out women like that as the equivalent of failure.

    There seems to be some confusion between "geek" and "incel." A geek would be happy to be in a comfortable relationship with a woman who shares his values. An incel sees women as a status symbol that he's entitled to. It's not a matter of having "Game" or the right look. It's a matter of viewing humans as autonomous beings or as items to posses.
    , @Anonymous
    "One thing I’d recommend to STEM type geeks is to check out"
    social dancing.

    Actually, I'd recommend this to ANYONE. It is not a cure all. We are all screwed (maybe). But it is wonderful.

    Any guy who thinks that on any level he has some fundamental problem connecting with women should keep trying to learn partner dance until it somehow clicks. DO THIS!!!!!!!!!!!! Use every power that you have to figure out how to make this work, even if you have to fail many times.
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  196. @Mr. Blank
    Speak up? I have spoken up over the years, repeatedly, as have other men. It's not hard at all to find straight men who lament the malign influence of waif-thin supermodels on our beauty standards. But, again, the people who make such decisions don't really care what straight dudes think.

    I once asked a female acquaintance connected to the fashion industry to explain this. Her response: "They want you to look at the clothes, not the girls. If the models were all stacked, all you guys would pay attention to is their cleavage."

    My point is just that if you want to see what straight dudes think is hot, consult people whose job it is to sell stuff to straight dudes. They will tell you they have no time for girls who look like famine victims.

    The old “Hawaiian Tropic” swim wear contestants are probably what normal men consider attractive in terms body types.

    https://www.gettyimages.com/photos/hawaiian-tropic-models?sort=mostpopular&mediatype=photography&phrase=hawaiian%20tropic%20models

    Read More
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    That works for me, Joe. (I'm on page 4 now.)
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  197. Anon[257] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mr. Blank
    Um...I wouldn't use supermodels as evidence of male sexual fancies. Yes, a lot of rich guys want a supermodel on their arm as a status symbol, but supermodels aren't chosen for their profession primarily by straight guys looking to appeal to other straight guys.

    If you want a more accurate idea of straight men's physical ideals, consult porn.

    Fashion models only appear in women’s fashion magazines. Unless a man works as a photographer or in fashion somewhere I don’t see how he would come in contact with models.

    With E European immigration we’re getting a lot of tall thin women and men and their children.

    Fashion models are the ultra tall skinny
    Print and product models are the normal slim.

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  198. @Anonymous
    It has sometimes occurred to me, in moments of deep cynicism, that guys who don't "get any" should organize as an official grievance group, and get recognized as having a "disability". Then they can get institutional support, and perhaps funding that might help them solve the problem on an ongoing basis. Even white guys could get in the game if they're overweight, but even a reasonably fit white guy could be "on the spectrum". How is this not already a thing?

    Even white guys could get in the game if they’re overweight, but even a reasonably fit white guy could be “on the spectrum”. How is this not already a thing?

    Even the most socially-disconnected, nerd-necked basement-dwelling neckbeard has far too much self-awareness to be caught dead joining a “social-justice” movement.

    So the reason it’s not a thing is not a lack of acceptance by the SJW hierarchy (who, let’s face it, will accept any self-identified ‘damaged’ group, so long as they make a full and open confession)… it’ll never be a thing because heterosexual males have far too much spine to be prepared to humiliate themselves by publicly identifying with victimhood qua their maleness or the amount of ‘tang they’re (not) getting.

    The term ‘incel’ is so Soviet in its affectation, that I am certain it was conjured up by some adjunct professor of gender studies at a community college somewhere in California (or perhaps Portland).

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  199. Anon[257] • Disclaimer says:
    @AnotherDad
    Rosie, i read this. It simply indicates what the red-pillers say--and what normal pre-nonsense people have known for thousands upon thousands of years. Men are primarily attracted to women based on *physical* appearance--essentially fertility cues of one sort or another. (Which makes perfect sense because the whole point of sexual attraction is ... to make babies. Men who had something else in mind--were attracted to women based on those women being old or mis-shapen or already looking like they were pregnant or being really great astronomers--those men's lines died out.)

    In contrast women are attracted to men based some on physique, but primarily on fitness in some larger sense--status, provision, protection, good genes, etc. etc. It's not something that you can actually tell from a picture. (Does Trump deserve Melania? You can't tell by just looking at him, you have to know he's a big shot real estate magnate and self-promoter. He could be an old guy with no retirement savings greeting people at Walmart. In which case, "no".) So women disagree. But if the men's full bio's were there along with income and bank balances, women would agree a lot more about "who's attractive".

    The fact that men mostly agree on who the attractive women are is not detecting "a problem". Rather it's detecting (evolved) reality and debunking the feminist notions that "standards of beauty" are "socially constructed" and other such nonsense. No this is basic evolutionarily driven programming, which *must* exist logically in order for a species using sexual reproduction to propagate.

    Oh please 99 percent of women have always been able to conceive and bear children. Any random women can have babies

    Women of every body type and weight distribution have always been able to conceive and bear children.

    In most of the world arranged marriages were the norm until recently. And plenty of Muslims never saw the wife until hours after the marriage ceremony.

    There are no physical signals that a woman can have babies because almost all women can have babies.

    Tall short skinny chubby whatever. And fat hips have nothing to do with it despite whatever superstition you picked up. Big breasts have nothing to do with breast feeding either.

    Malnutrition to starvation level brings the ratio of fat to muscle & bone down to the level where certain hormones stop production but that level of starvation is rare.

    Don’t most men consider fat thighs to be ugly and unattractive? The fat in the thighs has a role in the hormones that start the childbirth process going.

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  200. Anon[257] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    If you want a more accurate idea of straight men’s physical ideals, consult porn.
     
    If you think supermodels are unhealthy and/or unattractive, you should make it a point to speak up. We already know that men's physical ideas are subject to conditioning, unless you think foot-binding is attractive, that is.

    If you want a woman who looks like a porn star post-partum, prepare to shell out big bucks for plastic surgery.

    Or you could just insist she starve herself nearly to death.

    https://www.google.com/amp/www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4021446/amp/Melbourne-woman-starved-boyfriend-wanted-look-like-PORN-STAR.html#ampshare=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4021446/Melbourne-woman-starved-boyfriend-wanted-look-like-PORN-STAR.html

    Chinese men were conditioned into thinking foot binding was supremely sexy and beautiful. Part was Han resistance against the Manchus. But Han men paid a fortune for a foot bound wife, the supreme status symbol.

    Bound foot were very sexy. The foot curled into a little bundle. The bundle was perfect for ejaculation.

    Medieval Japanese women painted their teeth black. Long black hair, white white make up and red lipstick are pretty I suppose, but black teeth?

    Men are weird And so are women

    Anything can be achieved with clever marketing

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  201. Rosie says:
    @Mr. Blank
    Speak up? I have spoken up over the years, repeatedly, as have other men. It's not hard at all to find straight men who lament the malign influence of waif-thin supermodels on our beauty standards. But, again, the people who make such decisions don't really care what straight dudes think.

    I once asked a female acquaintance connected to the fashion industry to explain this. Her response: "They want you to look at the clothes, not the girls. If the models were all stacked, all you guys would pay attention to is their cleavage."

    My point is just that if you want to see what straight dudes think is hot, consult people whose job it is to sell stuff to straight dudes. They will tell you they have no time for girls who look like famine victims.

    Fair enough. Still, I don’t hear much in the Right about this, which is unfortunate, because girls cannot read your minds. They see what they see on the idiotbox and figure that is what society considers beautiful. Why would anyone be surprised if they say it’s not worth the effort, or even make a conscious decision to be rebel as ostentatiously as possible?

    BTW, I’m not at all sure that explanation is true. I suspect more sinister motives, though that is really besides the point.

    It also doesn’t help that the Right seems to have developed an allergy to anything protective or nurturing towards children and youth. This is of course a symptom of gender imbalance. The alt-Right doesn’t need women per session, but at a minimum they need to listen to women.

    Back to my point, when girls start developing in middle school, teachers do nothing while little boys ruthlessly harass and mock us for being “fat.” The pro-bullying Right seems not to care what sort of damage this does to girls, and the rage that comes after the pain.

    Still, I’m not blaming you for this. I’m just pointing out that the left is not wrong about everything all the time.

    You seem nice. Can you explain to me why istevers keep calling me a female impersonator? It seems to me if I was going to do any impersonating, it would be in the other direction, given that I am trying to persuade men who only respect their own.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Unz is a very, very misogynistic site. It’s one of the few places I’ve seen where White men believe that White men should behave like black men and not support their children but dump their White children on the mother and welfare to support.

    They also think that beautiful women should welcome endless harassment from total strangers.

    Just change your name to a masculine one and blast away at the assholes. Go to Jonathan Repulsives archive. Read his article about the German news years rapes and harassment by sand n*****s a few years ago.

    Read the comments by the Unz men that a women going out in public deserve to be pawed and groped.

    Better yet, find the article on the Arianna Grand concert in Britain where a Muslim blew up several hundred spectators.

    Most of the male commentators blasted away that the concert goers deserved to be blown up because they were sluts who attended a slut’s concert.

    Then there are the idiots that claim women can’t have children after 30 and jack off while typing about marrying 20 year old virgins.

    The men on this site are would be censored on other sites. That’s what makes unz so much fun.

    So blast away at the jack off misogynists
    , @Anon
    Rosie, Mr Blank’s never going to come within hundreds of miles of a model or actress. So who cares what his opinions about the women he sees on screen or in magazines are.
    , @anon
    BTW, I’m not at all sure that explanation is true. I suspect more sinister motives

    Don't you always, when it comes to men?
    , @James N. Kennett

    Back to my point, when girls start developing in middle school, teachers do nothing while little boys ruthlessly harass and mock us for being “fat.”
     
    From what (admittedly little) I've seen, it's the slimmer girls who most enjoy inflicting this pain. One of their worst weapons is ostracism.

    The pro-bullying Right seems not to care what sort of damage this does to girls, and the rage that comes after the pain.
     
    Please take a reality check. There is no political party, nor any informal political grouping, that favors the bullying of middle-school girls.
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  202. Thea says:
    @Rosie

    Some truth to that.
     
    Maybe, but it hardly matters. The only question is who is inappropriately rejecting whom, the why's and wherefores are utterly beside the point.

    I think you are somehow confused about some differences between the sexes.

    Men want sex more than women so women can dictate(ration) terms for sex.

    Women want marriage more than men so men can dictate terms.

    Ugly or old of fat women can get sex if they don’t require much in exchange. Men have to offer something in exchange (Looks, status, wealth) many a man has been left frustrated and angered over this.

    Men will often sleep with women they don’t find attractive enough to have a relationship with and many a woman has been left sad and confused over this.

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  203. Bel Riose says:
    @Rosie

    The cause of the belief in hyper-gamy is while the sexual distribution isn’t that bad, the virgin distribution is.
     
    Cry me a river. Perhaps men should start taking each other to task for pumping and dumping for years on end and then wondering where all the virgins are when they finally decide to settle down.

    Perhaps women should start taking each other to task for misleading men as to what they really desire in a mate.

    After all, men are at least honest about the fact that physical attraction plays a big part in how much desire we have for a woman. Women, however, cannot dare admit that they thrill to a man’s dominance, aggression, and high status. After all, that would expose the dark underbelly of feminine desire, wouldn’t it ?

    Instead, women tell all and sundry that they like kind, nice, decent men — and then ignore them and spread their legs for the biggest assholes they can find. With any luck, such women will end up like Shulamith Firestone: dying alone in an apartment, partially eaten by their pet cats. (Incidentally, I can’t think of a better fate for a radical Jewish feminist. Can you?)

    Since you so clearly view the world through the lens of gender relations, and in an antagonistic, hostile way, here’s a bit of wisdom for you.

    Everything that makes up this world you live in, Rosie — and I mean everything, including ball-point pens, aluminum, rubber bands, handbags, purses, shoes, light-bulbs, combustion engines, the concept of commercial law, the idea of a trial by jury, print newspapers, the scientific method of inquiry, paper mills, steel mills, jet engines, the process of curing leather, the techniques of mining and forging steel, the cellphone you consult 1,000 times a day, the internet, the chair your undoubtedly fat ass is seated in — ALL of the things, physical and incorporeal, which make up our civilization — all of them — were thought up by men, designed by men, built by men, perfected by men, and maintained and improved by men.

    And white men at that.

    Men! Men, men, men…not women.

    As far as the creation of civilization is concerned, women have merely been along for the ride.

    To proffer a rather crude metaphor: women are nothing more than fish swimming in a sea made by men.

    And now that men have tamed nature, pushed back the wilds, reached into space, and built a civilization which provides your gender with every imaginable comfort — now, you women step forth and shrill that you are just as capable as a man, and demand that we hand the reins of power over to you.

    Because women have been oppressed, don’t you know, and if men would stop holding back these strong empowered women…why, who knows what they might be able to accomplish. In fact the demands and shrill mind-set of feminist nut-jobs like you amount to nothing more than an attempt to hijack a culture and civilization your gender had nothing to do with creating.

    Now please remind yourself that you will always stand in a man’s shadow. Then go rent an apartment, and get some cats. A half-dozen felines will suffice, I should think.

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  204. Anon[257] • Disclaimer says:
    @WHAT
    You assume wrong. A whore that has "seen it all" will find a client that has a problem even getting it up pitiful and annoying, with the accompanying intercourse quality, if it even happens. Not everybody can do the deed after a couple of something strong as well.

    Cue even more depression for the nerd either way.

    How do you know that?

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  205. Anon[257] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie
    Fair enough. Still, I don't hear much in the Right about this, which is unfortunate, because girls cannot read your minds. They see what they see on the idiotbox and figure that is what society considers beautiful. Why would anyone be surprised if they say it's not worth the effort, or even make a conscious decision to be rebel as ostentatiously as possible?

    BTW, I'm not at all sure that explanation is true. I suspect more sinister motives, though that is really besides the point.

    It also doesn't help that the Right seems to have developed an allergy to anything protective or nurturing towards children and youth. This is of course a symptom of gender imbalance. The alt-Right doesn't need women per session, but at a minimum they need to listen to women.

    Back to my point, when girls start developing in middle school, teachers do nothing while little boys ruthlessly harass and mock us for being "fat." The pro-bullying Right seems not to care what sort of damage this does to girls, and the rage that comes after the pain.

    Still, I'm not blaming you for this. I'm just pointing out that the left is not wrong about everything all the time.

    You seem nice. Can you explain to me why istevers keep calling me a female impersonator? It seems to me if I was going to do any impersonating, it would be in the other direction, given that I am trying to persuade men who only respect their own.

    Unz is a very, very misogynistic site. It’s one of the few places I’ve seen where White men believe that White men should behave like black men and not support their children but dump their White children on the mother and welfare to support.

    They also think that beautiful women should welcome endless harassment from total strangers.

    Just change your name to a masculine one and blast away at the assholes. Go to Jonathan Repulsives archive. Read his article about the German news years rapes and harassment by sand n*****s a few years ago.

    Read the comments by the Unz men that a women going out in public deserve to be pawed and groped.

    Better yet, find the article on the Arianna Grand concert in Britain where a Muslim blew up several hundred spectators.

    Most of the male commentators blasted away that the concert goers deserved to be blown up because they were sluts who attended a slut’s concert.

    Then there are the idiots that claim women can’t have children after 30 and jack off while typing about marrying 20 year old virgins.

    The men on this site are would be censored on other sites. That’s what makes unz so much fun.

    So blast away at the jack off misogynists

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    • Replies: @grapesoda

    Better yet, find the article on the Arianna Grand concert in Britain where a Muslim blew up several hundred spectators.

    Most of the male commentators blasted away that the concert goers deserved to be blown up because they were sluts who attended a slut’s concert.

    Then there are the idiots that claim women can’t have children after 30 and jack off while typing about marrying 20 year old virgins.

    The men on this site are would be censored on other sites. That’s what makes unz so much fun.
     
    I've already read through those threads. Why did you feel the need to change your screen name from Alden to Anon 257? Is it because everyone realized that you are a lunatic? What are your other screen names?

    Keep in mind, you are lying before God, and that is a sin. It is extremely sad that you feel the need to do this in pursuit of your perverse ideology.
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  206. ChrisZ says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Comfort women. Worked for the Japanese back in the 40s.
     
    Now there's some thinking inside the box! Guys, iStever readers - hey, put down the slice of pizza, OK, guys, this is the kind of innovation I'm looking for, see this guy Anon #302? That's what I wanna see more of next week at the all-hands meeting - no wait, it won't be a regular all-hands meeting -there's gonna be the comfort women.

    Skippy, run this by HR. See if they have some resources for this project, and yank my chain mid-week. This should get TOP PRIORITY, 24 x 7 x 69 !

    (Hey, it's not that expensive compared to free-pizza Fridays, Ultimate-frisbee lunches, and flexible work hours during which I've seen some of you at the movie matinee at 2 in the afternoon.)

    Is Mrs Pao really concerned, as a Chinawoman, that some of our computer-tech workers are indeed turning Japanese? I really think so ... (think so, think so).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LR4XNqrqxrU

    LOL! Another winner, Achmed.

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    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    I'm glad you like the humor, Chris. It comes onto the screen a lot easier than the serious writing.
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  207. Anon[257] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie
    Fair enough. Still, I don't hear much in the Right about this, which is unfortunate, because girls cannot read your minds. They see what they see on the idiotbox and figure that is what society considers beautiful. Why would anyone be surprised if they say it's not worth the effort, or even make a conscious decision to be rebel as ostentatiously as possible?

    BTW, I'm not at all sure that explanation is true. I suspect more sinister motives, though that is really besides the point.

    It also doesn't help that the Right seems to have developed an allergy to anything protective or nurturing towards children and youth. This is of course a symptom of gender imbalance. The alt-Right doesn't need women per session, but at a minimum they need to listen to women.

    Back to my point, when girls start developing in middle school, teachers do nothing while little boys ruthlessly harass and mock us for being "fat." The pro-bullying Right seems not to care what sort of damage this does to girls, and the rage that comes after the pain.

    Still, I'm not blaming you for this. I'm just pointing out that the left is not wrong about everything all the time.

    You seem nice. Can you explain to me why istevers keep calling me a female impersonator? It seems to me if I was going to do any impersonating, it would be in the other direction, given that I am trying to persuade men who only respect their own.

    Rosie, Mr Blank’s never going to come within hundreds of miles of a model or actress. So who cares what his opinions about the women he sees on screen or in magazines are.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    If he lives in NYC and/or works in the garment district or media, he might encounter them all the time. That doesn't mean he'll ever snag a date with one.
    , @Mr. Blank
    Mr. Blank is very happily married, so he tends to view this whole debate with wry amusement.
    , @Rosie

    Rosie, Mr Blank’s never going to come within hundreds of miles of a model or actress. So who cares what his opinions about the women he sees on screen or in magazines are.
     
    Supermodels aside, young girls take their cues about what is considered beautiful from images they see in the media. If you don't care about that, then you don't care about girls.
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  208. Anon[257] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mr. Blank
    Speak up? I have spoken up over the years, repeatedly, as have other men. It's not hard at all to find straight men who lament the malign influence of waif-thin supermodels on our beauty standards. But, again, the people who make such decisions don't really care what straight dudes think.

    I once asked a female acquaintance connected to the fashion industry to explain this. Her response: "They want you to look at the clothes, not the girls. If the models were all stacked, all you guys would pay attention to is their cleavage."

    My point is just that if you want to see what straight dudes think is hot, consult people whose job it is to sell stuff to straight dudes. They will tell you they have no time for girls who look like famine victims.

    You’ve never seen a model or an actress in your life. What kind of man reads women’s fashion magazines anyway? Are you gay?

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  209. Anon[257] • Disclaimer says:
    @Thea
    I think you are reading them all wrong. It's more about social rejection and the rudeness and hostility than sex .

    Hot prostitutes will sleep with them. But other Attractive women mock them. Teaching girls humility, decency and modesty would go a long way to ending the frustration.

    What are you talking about? Decent modest women don’t jump into bed with just any random guy.

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    • Replies: @Thea
    I'm not saying they should jump in bed with these guys I'm saying they should treat them with respect. I'd also add If they don't jump in bed with Chad then these guys will not be so resentful.
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  210. Anon[257] • Disclaimer says:

    There used to be some clubs in Silicon Valley Theyvwere men’s clubs. About twice a month they would rent a place in San Francisco and have a big party. They would advertise widely.

    Lots of women would come and the horny engineers of SV would meet women and start dating them although the distance was a problem.

    I think that was when it was White American men who only worked 60 hour weeks ran SV.

    The custom in both India and Asia is for a man to do nothing about finding a wife or even a girl friend but wait around for mommy to find a wife.

    Maybe that’s the problem.

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  211. @songbird
    The term "incel" does not make any sense to me. At one time, it may have been true on long distance sea voyages, where sailors returning would oggle and wolf-whistle at any middle-aged woman fixing her glass eye into its socket and limping with her peg leg along the jetty.

    Yes, I agree. The term “incel” is meaningless.

    In order to technically qualify as an incel, you would have to be fully committed to having sex, making every reasonable attempt to do so, and yet striking out time after time, every time. This would be an exceedingly rare creature indeed. In a society this large, with so many women about, virtually any man can find some woman to have sex with if he keeps applying himself.

    I think the real issue here is men who are conditionally celibate. Their thought process runs something like….

    “Sure, I would like to be having more sex, but I would also like to end up with a solid relationship, a good companion, and a family out of the deal. But most women today come with way too much baggage, and I just don’t want that kind of drama in my life. The hot girls attract too much attention from the wrong kind of guys; I could never be confident of their loyalty, and they would probably be lazy and high-maintenance anyway. And even the not-so-hot girls are possessed of far too much attitude these days. If I could meet a good girl who liked me and respected me, then things would be different. But where do you find such women? They seem to have disappeared. I don’t want to chase around some THOT just so I can say I say I have girlfriend. The bottom line is, if a girl isn’t going to be good to me, then I don’t really need her. I know as a man I’m supposed to act as if one’s sexual score is everything, but really it isn’t. There are other things in life more important than having non-reproductive, non-relationship sex with crazy women. I don’t have the energy or the desire to pursue it any longer, but in order to avoid the censure of a sexually obsessed society, I ‘m going to have to drop out of the social scene altogether. It’s sad and painful, but I have no choice under the circumstances.”

    The celibacy of such a man may not be desired, but it is entirely “voluntary” in the Aristotelian sense. Now the real question is, why do people like execrable Roissy and his ilk reserve their harshest invective for men taking this entirely reasonable (albeit unfortunate) position? Why ridicule them as betas, incels, losers, and so forth? They aren’t any of these things. They’re just men who’ve realized that the rewards are no longer worth the stakes. Why does Roissy bear in his heart a hatred for men who’ve had enough of his stupid “game” and aren’t going to play anymore? It can only be because the spiritual purity of such a position completely outclasses his own venal and pathetic obsession.

    Roissy is not the answer to society’s ills. He is part of the illness himself.

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    • Agree: songbird
    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    I think you're confusing people who want real relationships rather than cheap hook-ups with people who really can't socialize with anybody, even other Nice Guys. Read Santa Barbara Virgin Eliot Rodger's screed, or as much of it as you can stand. He didn't know how to try; he didn't think he should have to. He'd go to a party, be furious that blonde bimbos would go up and talk to cool guys, but no one came up to talk to him. He didn't try to chat them up: just tried to project magnetism or some such thing, as The Secret (which his ill-advised father had given him) says. He was furious at the thought he might have to make the first move. Then he'd go home and cry. In college, this meant going home to a roommate who he noted was less good-looking than he was but still scored, probably because he didn't creep the girls out.

    He did better for a while when he visited England, where the low-key social interchanges in academia were a little more geared to his speed, but instead of transferring there and accepting it was a better fit, he chose to go back to Santa Barbara, to prove whatever.

    He even said outright that he needed a hot girl on his arm so everybody would know how important he was. It's clear that he not only wouldn't bother with a nice-looking girl who gave him no status, but he also would have no sympathy for a hot-looking girl who had an off day from a breakout or pre-cycle bloating, or, eventually, aged. It wasn't really much different from his refusal to be friends with anyone who could beat him at computer games. To accuse him of hating women misses the point: he hated everybody who wouldn't build him up.

    Guys like that are not the lovable nerds on the Big Bang Theory, who have their own mating grounds: cons, gaming, re-enactment, etc. In a way, they're the flip side of female journalists who want to change the rules of aesthetics.

    , @njguy73

    Why does Roissy bear in his heart a hatred for men who’ve had enough of his stupid “game” and aren’t going to play anymore?
     
    Men who’ve had enough of this stupid “game” don't click onto Roissy's website. Men who aren’t going to play anymore don't plunk down money for Game seminars. Therefore, there are of no use to Roissy.
    , @Anonymous Human Intelligence Operative
    Ok, now that I've finally got you guys flapping your lips, riddle me this....

    How come the incel terrorists, Sodini/Rodgers/Minassian, none of them were hideous guys at all.

    Why no super ugly incel terrorists who might actually be reasonable subjects of lookism?

    And why does it take me to bring this up, Steve, aren't you the genius at noticing things?

    J Ross, you are laughable.

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  212. Anon[257] • Disclaimer says:
    @Obadiah Binks
    ...guys who don’t “get any” should organize as an official grievance group...


    Both sides normally assume that men, of course, like polygamy. So, they simply clash over whether polygamy is in the best interests of wives. In reality, however, polygamy victimizes men. You never hear about it because few men want to claim this particular kind of victimhood: that of the sexual rejectee.

    I have been looking in vain for 20 years for an article about polygamy that mentioned that for one man to take a second wife means, in the normal course of things, that another man will get no wife at all.

    I have come to believe that this blind spot stems from it being virtually impossible for a man to imagine himself as one of the 149 losers, rather than the one big winner. He might prefer one wife to 150, but his male ego can't allow him to identify with all the men who end up rejected and alone. This psychological quirk creates a reality distortion field in the heads of men.

     

    Steve Sailer, "The Problem with Polygamy"

    The reason 4 wives is the ideal is the following according to the ancient wisdom of China

    1 Wife
    It’s just too much work for one woman to run the household, bear and raise the kids work in the family business and be a wife too . Doesn’t matter if the family is royalty or migrant laborers, it’s just too much for in woman.

    2Wives
    The 2 wives will gang up against the husband and he’ll never get any peace and quiet

    3 Wives

    2 of the wives will gang up against one wife. The husband will have to mediate and never get any peace and quiet

    4 Wives
    4 is the ideal number The wives will divide themselves into 2 against 2 pairs and squabble and fight amongst themselves and the husband will have peace and quiet.

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    • Replies: @Joe Stalin
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zO2Trv4sZw
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  213. @anon
    There is a lack of consensus among women on who are the most attractive males.

    Is this something you seriously believe?

    Weird that Harvey Weinstein was never picked as one of the sexiest men alive, if that was true...

    That is why men believe that competition for mates is especially acute. They are ignoring all but the most attractive.

    I don't know what made me think of this, but I wonder if Steve would ever come up with a Law Of Female Commenting.

    Actually, there are girls who go for the Sad Poet, the Artist in the Garret, the Musician With the Crap Day Job. Not everybody wants Mr. Overachiever or the Aggressive Bad Boy.

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    • Replies: @anon
    That's true on the margins, but not too many want the Fat Unemployed Guy.
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  214. gp says:

    “This incel stuff smells like a giant hoax to me” There is little more hurtful to a man’s psyche than being unable to find an intimate partner. Especially when he sees the nastiest, flakiest, most soulless dudes getting all the action. If you haven’t been there, you can’t contemplate the agony inside the incel. I’m glad there’s finally a name for it. I tried to explain it to doctors, but they are clueless.

    No, that agony does not justify incel violence. And I doubt it’s the business of employers to address it.

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  215. anon[265] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosamond Vincy
    Actually, there are girls who go for the Sad Poet, the Artist in the Garret, the Musician With the Crap Day Job. Not everybody wants Mr. Overachiever or the Aggressive Bad Boy.

    That’s true on the margins, but not too many want the Fat Unemployed Guy.

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  216. @Intelligent Dasein
    Yes, I agree. The term "incel" is meaningless.

    In order to technically qualify as an incel, you would have to be fully committed to having sex, making every reasonable attempt to do so, and yet striking out time after time, every time. This would be an exceedingly rare creature indeed. In a society this large, with so many women about, virtually any man can find some woman to have sex with if he keeps applying himself.

    I think the real issue here is men who are conditionally celibate. Their thought process runs something like....

    "Sure, I would like to be having more sex, but I would also like to end up with a solid relationship, a good companion, and a family out of the deal. But most women today come with way too much baggage, and I just don't want that kind of drama in my life. The hot girls attract too much attention from the wrong kind of guys; I could never be confident of their loyalty, and they would probably be lazy and high-maintenance anyway. And even the not-so-hot girls are possessed of far too much attitude these days. If I could meet a good girl who liked me and respected me, then things would be different. But where do you find such women? They seem to have disappeared. I don't want to chase around some THOT just so I can say I say I have girlfriend. The bottom line is, if a girl isn't going to be good to me, then I don't really need her. I know as a man I'm supposed to act as if one's sexual score is everything, but really it isn't. There are other things in life more important than having non-reproductive, non-relationship sex with crazy women. I don't have the energy or the desire to pursue it any longer, but in order to avoid the censure of a sexually obsessed society, I 'm going to have to drop out of the social scene altogether. It's sad and painful, but I have no choice under the circumstances."
     
    The celibacy of such a man may not be desired, but it is entirely "voluntary" in the Aristotelian sense. Now the real question is, why do people like execrable Roissy and his ilk reserve their harshest invective for men taking this entirely reasonable (albeit unfortunate) position? Why ridicule them as betas, incels, losers, and so forth? They aren't any of these things. They're just men who've realized that the rewards are no longer worth the stakes. Why does Roissy bear in his heart a hatred for men who've had enough of his stupid "game" and aren't going to play anymore? It can only be because the spiritual purity of such a position completely outclasses his own venal and pathetic obsession.

    Roissy is not the answer to society's ills. He is part of the illness himself.

    I think you’re confusing people who want real relationships rather than cheap hook-ups with people who really can’t socialize with anybody, even other Nice Guys. Read Santa Barbara Virgin Eliot Rodger’s screed, or as much of it as you can stand. He didn’t know how to try; he didn’t think he should have to. He’d go to a party, be furious that blonde bimbos would go up and talk to cool guys, but no one came up to talk to him. He didn’t try to chat them up: just tried to project magnetism or some such thing, as The Secret (which his ill-advised father had given him) says. He was furious at the thought he might have to make the first move. Then he’d go home and cry. In college, this meant going home to a roommate who he noted was less good-looking than he was but still scored, probably because he didn’t creep the girls out.

    He did better for a while when he visited England, where the low-key social interchanges in academia were a little more geared to his speed, but instead of transferring there and accepting it was a better fit, he chose to go back to Santa Barbara, to prove whatever.

    He even said outright that he needed a hot girl on his arm so everybody would know how important he was. It’s clear that he not only wouldn’t bother with a nice-looking girl who gave him no status, but he also would have no sympathy for a hot-looking girl who had an off day from a breakout or pre-cycle bloating, or, eventually, aged. It wasn’t really much different from his refusal to be friends with anyone who could beat him at computer games. To accuse him of hating women misses the point: he hated everybody who wouldn’t build him up.

    Guys like that are not the lovable nerds on the Big Bang Theory, who have their own mating grounds: cons, gaming, re-enactment, etc. In a way, they’re the flip side of female journalists who want to change the rules of aesthetics.

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  217. anon[265] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie
    Fair enough. Still, I don't hear much in the Right about this, which is unfortunate, because girls cannot read your minds. They see what they see on the idiotbox and figure that is what society considers beautiful. Why would anyone be surprised if they say it's not worth the effort, or even make a conscious decision to be rebel as ostentatiously as possible?

    BTW, I'm not at all sure that explanation is true. I suspect more sinister motives, though that is really besides the point.

    It also doesn't help that the Right seems to have developed an allergy to anything protective or nurturing towards children and youth. This is of course a symptom of gender imbalance. The alt-Right doesn't need women per session, but at a minimum they need to listen to women.

    Back to my point, when girls start developing in middle school, teachers do nothing while little boys ruthlessly harass and mock us for being "fat." The pro-bullying Right seems not to care what sort of damage this does to girls, and the rage that comes after the pain.

    Still, I'm not blaming you for this. I'm just pointing out that the left is not wrong about everything all the time.

    You seem nice. Can you explain to me why istevers keep calling me a female impersonator? It seems to me if I was going to do any impersonating, it would be in the other direction, given that I am trying to persuade men who only respect their own.

    BTW, I’m not at all sure that explanation is true. I suspect more sinister motives

    Don’t you always, when it comes to men?

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    • Replies: @Rosie

    Don’t you always, when it comes to men?
     
    Only when it comes to certain men who have a known tendency to push fracture points to distract, divide, and destroy.
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  218. @Anon
    Rosie, Mr Blank’s never going to come within hundreds of miles of a model or actress. So who cares what his opinions about the women he sees on screen or in magazines are.

    If he lives in NYC and/or works in the garment district or media, he might encounter them all the time. That doesn’t mean he’ll ever snag a date with one.

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  219. anon[265] • Disclaimer says:
    @fish2
    I think the sheer popularity of BBW porn online should put this idea that men find anorexia attractive to rest. Sounds to me like conditioning has a lot more effect on what men say they like as opposed to the reality.

    I was going to make a long post about what I, a former incel who dealt with the extremely screwed up dating world for modern young people (especially young males), discovered and found out (it's a lot more complex and grey than any one ideological bent would have it), and what I did about it, but... really, looking at what this thread has turned into, I ain't in the mood now. Going to go to prepare for meeting my girlfriend tomorrow.

    I was going to make a long post about what I, a former incel who dealt with the extremely screwed up dating world for modern young people (especially young males), discovered and found out (it’s a lot more complex and grey than any one ideological bent would have it),

    If you learned something, I think you ought to post it. After the dozens of comments about men and their sinister motives, it would be interesting to know just what your perspective on this issue is.

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  220. asdf says:

    “CEOs of big tech companies: You almost certainly have incels as employees. What are you going to do about it?”

    How does she know? I didn’t know it was legal to ask your employees about their sex lives.

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  221. Thea says:
    @Anon
    What are you talking about? Decent modest women don’t jump into bed with just any random guy.

    I’m not saying they should jump in bed with these guys I’m saying they should treat them with respect. I’d also add If they don’t jump in bed with Chad then these guys will not be so resentful.

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  222. Mr. Blank says:
    @Anon
    Rosie, Mr Blank’s never going to come within hundreds of miles of a model or actress. So who cares what his opinions about the women he sees on screen or in magazines are.

    Mr. Blank is very happily married, so he tends to view this whole debate with wry amusement.

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  223. J.Ross says: • Website

    A lot of people are missing what this really is.
    Somebody at 4chan posted an image of an article titled “Exclusive: incels among us, are you working with dangerous alt-right incels, top ten ways you can detect if your coworker is an incel,” by Ryan J Goldberg. You’re supposed to post an archived link when you bring up an article, but we are flooded by new people who don’t know any rules, and by trolls deliberately breaking them. I have looked for this article and author and have not found either (I appreciate anyone able to pull on the door I am pushing).
    If this article is real or fake, it illustrates my point about demonic straw men and the perpetual witch hunt that is leftism. It illustrates it even if it was assembled in photoshop because the person doing that is clearly seeking to make his political enemies feel isolated and hunted using this idea. If this is a real article being presented as news then so much the worse for American journalism.

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  224. anon[231] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    Is this something you seriously believe?
     
    What I believe is irrelevant. We're not talking about religion. We're talking about questions of empirical fact.

    And yes, this is something I actually believe. I have seen women take a shine to guys based on all sorts of different qualities. Sense of humor, intellect, and musical ability are the most important.

    I have seen women take a shine to guys based on all sorts of different qualities. Sense of humor, intellect, and musical ability are the most important.

    OK, well. That’s three qualities. And I do not believe, nor will I ever believe, that intellect is even in the top ten.

    When I was in college, there were a lot of guys on my dorm floor who were in engineering and computer science. I got to know them and kept in touch with some of them throughout college.

    I know for a fact that the majority of those guys never went on a single date throughout college. You know how I know? Because when one of the others did, it was like a major event in their little group.

    Those guys were in the top ten percent of intellect in the university, so probably in the top one percent of the population at large. So why weren’t women throwing themselves at them?

    I had better luck than they did, and I don’t mind telling you that they were smarter than I was. And personality-wise, I tend towards crabbiness about half the time. And I have less musical talent than the average fourth-grader with a plastic recorder.

    And most of these guys weren’t ugly. One of them was (in my admittedly non-female opinion) rather handsome, actually. They weren’t exactly buff, but they were roughly average for the people at that time and place. If you didn’t know them, they’d look just like average guys on campus.

    And they weren’t assholes, either. They had some odd habits due to the fact that they never had any women around, but they were nice and polite and considerate. They seemed mostly resigned to their fate. They weren’t happy about being single, but they didn’t sit around bitching about it either, at least that I ever saw. They seemed to look at getting a girlfriend like winning a million dollars would be. Sure, it’d be nice if it happened, and you wish it would, but it’s not going to, so there’s no point complaining about it.

    I don’t really keep up on all the manosphere stuff, so maybe they have an explanation for it. I don’t know. I just know for a fact that the explanation you’ve provided is just totally false. I imagine that you probably just don’t actually have any experience being around guys like that, so I wouldn’t expect you to know about it up close, though.

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    • Replies: @Rosie

    OK, well. That’s three qualities. And I do not believe, nor will I ever believe, that intellect is even in the top ten.
     
    Here you have admitted that you are impervious to reason.

    Let me help you with this. Read Luke 10:38-42 and get back to me.

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+10%3A38-42&version=NIV

    Those guys were in the top ten percent of intellect in the university, so probably in the top one percent of the population at large. So why weren’t women throwing themselves at them?
     
    That's not the kind of intelligence women find attractive. Nor do they find it unattractive. They are indifferent.

    I imagine that you probably just don’t actually have any experience being around guys like that, so I wouldn’t expect you to know about it up close, though.
     
    Yes. I do, actually. I am married to a very intelligent man. His whole family is highly intelligent, and the guys in STEM are disagreeable, opinionated, and controlling. I literally once had one comment on the inefficiency of my method of folding my husbands polo shirts. I'm not kidding. It gets to the point where you can't stand being around them, because you know you're under the microscope.

    Now, perhaps my low opinion of them is merely the result of natural in-law tension. I fully acknowledge that possibility, but I certainly do not lack experience with them.
    , @Joe Stalin
    Sounds like a great market to be exploited by "match makers." There has got to be a whole lot of females that are willing to "lower your standards" to locate a nice, intelligent "provider." Maybe some women could latch onto some modeling agency and use the ones that don't rate a "10" as candidates.

    Why? I remember reading a "Dear Abby" or equivalent letter where a girl said she basically ignored some guy and THEN she discovered he was now following a career path to become an MD. So she was looking for a "provider" in other words. A guy with decent reliable income I am sure will make some pretty woman happy. STEM people will have good income until they are kicked out by your imported H1-B.

    "Summary. "Engineering is "the people-serving profession." "

    Someone needs to take that to heart and supply them with females!

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  225. Rosie says:
    @Anonymous
    What's an "object-oriented personality?" Is that like having a closetful of dozens of pairs of shoes? Did you mean rules about having separate sets of cutlery and china depending on who the invited dinner guests are? Sounds toxic

    It’s the person-orientation vs. thing-orientation personality dichotomy.

    http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/1948550612444320

    Thing-orientation is associated with persistence and success in STEM, and also,with disagreeableness. See the section titled “external correlates.”

    See also “spheres of control.” TO people have a lack of self-efficacy about interpersonal relationships. My own unscientific experience is that these men are manipulative and domineering. They lack the ability to assert their wants and needs in an agreeable way and they have no patience for win-win negotiation and compromise. They default to pulling rank. Remember, thing-oriented people ask,

    “What can I do with this?”
    How is this useful to me?”
    “How does this thing work?
    “Where is the instruction manual?
    “It’s not serving its purpose. It’s defective.”

    Not attractive.

    I know this sounds harsh, but the first thing we have to do is figure out the problem so that we can find a solution. I assure you I have no desire to see these men marry Asians or what have you.

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    • Replies: @anon
    Not attractive.

    That's weird, because earlier, you said that women didn't agree on what was attractive, and that you've seen women take a shine to all kinds of guys.

    I guess you just meant "all kinds of men except the half or so of men that are thing-oriented".
    , @James N. Kennett

    It’s the person-orientation vs. thing-orientation personality dichotomy.

    http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/1948550612444320

    Thing-orientation is associated with persistence and success in STEM, and also,with disagreeableness. See the section titled “external correlates.”
     

    Well, we agree on at least one thing.

    In the Myers-Briggs classification, person-orientation is called "feeling", while thing-orientation is "thinking". Unlike general intelligence, this aspect of personality is highly correlated with gender. It explains why, with numerous exceptions, men are more likely to be good at STEM subjects, while women tend to excel at the humanities.

    The logical conclusion is that it is futile trying to achieve gender balance in STEM professions: the best that can be achieved sector-wide is about 25% female. To achieve gender-balance, (for example) half the nurses would have to swap jobs with half the car mechanics. Achieving this goal would clearly not work out well for these employees or for their clients, but perversely it has become a shibboleth of mainstream, cross-party politics.

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  226. @Rosie
    Fair enough. Still, I don't hear much in the Right about this, which is unfortunate, because girls cannot read your minds. They see what they see on the idiotbox and figure that is what society considers beautiful. Why would anyone be surprised if they say it's not worth the effort, or even make a conscious decision to be rebel as ostentatiously as possible?

    BTW, I'm not at all sure that explanation is true. I suspect more sinister motives, though that is really besides the point.

    It also doesn't help that the Right seems to have developed an allergy to anything protective or nurturing towards children and youth. This is of course a symptom of gender imbalance. The alt-Right doesn't need women per session, but at a minimum they need to listen to women.

    Back to my point, when girls start developing in middle school, teachers do nothing while little boys ruthlessly harass and mock us for being "fat." The pro-bullying Right seems not to care what sort of damage this does to girls, and the rage that comes after the pain.

    Still, I'm not blaming you for this. I'm just pointing out that the left is not wrong about everything all the time.

    You seem nice. Can you explain to me why istevers keep calling me a female impersonator? It seems to me if I was going to do any impersonating, it would be in the other direction, given that I am trying to persuade men who only respect their own.

    Back to my point, when girls start developing in middle school, teachers do nothing while little boys ruthlessly harass and mock us for being “fat.”

    From what (admittedly little) I’ve seen, it’s the slimmer girls who most enjoy inflicting this pain. One of their worst weapons is ostracism.

    The pro-bullying Right seems not to care what sort of damage this does to girls, and the rage that comes after the pain.

    Please take a reality check. There is no political party, nor any informal political grouping, that favors the bullying of middle-school girls.

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    • Replies: @Rosie

    From what (admittedly little) I’ve seen, it’s the slimmer girls who most enjoy inflicting this pain. One of their worst weapons is ostracism.
     
    Nope. It was the boys. Girls do ostracize, but not for getting boobs when you're 13.

    Please take a reality check. There is no political party, nor any informal political grouping, that favors the bullying of middle-school girls.
     
    They call it "fat-shaming", and yes they are very much in favor of it, unless there is an age and/or size restriction on this that I am unaware of. Here is what they think of bullying little boys:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Real_Greg_Conte/status/954881666908147712
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  227. @Rosie

    What if the women in their league would rather be with no one at all than with some socially-awkward weirdo who has to work all the time?
     
    'Twas ever this. I'm never going to support forced prostitution. That's for sure. I don't think social awkwardness is the problem. I think it is rather something akin to psychopathy. The manipulative, object-oriented personality that leads men into tech also explains their genuinely dark personalities. That's my theory anyway. I'm certainly open to correction.

    If I am right, the solution is not forced prostitution as MGTOW advocate, but help for men who struggle to empathize and relate to other human beings.

    Plus, you’re forgetting how Silicon Valley works. The people who work there are mostly men, and they move there from all over the world to take a job there. It’s sort of like a Gold Rush camp, where it’s a bunch of men going to a place without that many women. So it’s entirely possible that there really just aren’t enough women to go around in their social circle.
     
    There may well be something to this. The MGTOW claim that

    (1) Women demand immigration to create a competitive mating market.
    (2) Women hate productive nerdy guys.

    It would seem to follow that something else is behind high-skill immigration. That something else is greed, of course.

    The manipulative, object-oriented personality that leads men into tech also explains their genuinely dark personalities. That’s my theory anyway. I’m certainly open to correction.

    You got it, Rosie – one correction coming right up.

    Why would you think men who are into ideas and objects rather than people have dark personalities? They just don’t get excited about dealing with other people, but are very interested in how things work. There’s nothing at all wrong with that.

    At the same time, the urge for sex and the less urgent but still big longing for romance is still there. Because lots of guys don’t care that much about the “dealing with people” part, they end up with a big shyness towards girls. They don’t really have this with guys and women they don’t long for (in “that way”) because they just don’t care. “Talk with me, don’t talk with me – I don’t give a rat’s ass.”. I’ve been there.

    Because women are almost always not like this, they, including you, may have some idea there is something wrong with these guys. Nope, there’s not. You don’t understand that lots of people don’t need other people. I’ve never understood the big damn deal about solitary confinement … especially if they have wireless.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    "The manipulative, object-oriented personality that leads men into tech also explains their genuinely dark personalities."

    That Steve Wozniak, a real Machiavellian personality!

    , @Rosie
    This is an interesting post that gets to the heart of the matter. Allow me to respond.

    Why would you think men who are into ideas and objects rather than people have dark personalities? They just don’t get excited about dealing with other people, but are very interested in how things work. There’s nothing at all wrong with that.
     
    I quite agree with you that being interested in how things work is perfectly appropriate and salutary for society. That is not the reason I think they have dark personalities. I think that because the distinction between people and things gets blurry for them, and they treat the former as if they were the latter.

    At the same time, the urge for sex and the less urgent but still big longing for romance is still there...Because women are almost always not like this, they, including you, may have some idea there is something wrong with these guys. Nope, there’s not. You don’t understand that lots of people don’t need other people. I’ve never understood the big damn deal about solitary confinement … especially if they have wireless.
     
    Here we have a very fundamental disagreement about the good. In my view, which I think is fairly typical of women, there is no such thing as a normal, healthy individual who doesn't need other people except for sex. We can tell, in fact, that the only reason such individuals are talking to us is precisely to get sex.

    We look at such men and we see an erect penis walking on two legs, and they strike us as both ridiculous and repulsive. We are not interested in being their comfort women, so they can relieve themselves and get back to their important concerns.

    Now, you also mentioned romance. To any extent that is the goal, it would seem to me that the person in question is not wholly object-oriented. And if romance is the goal, why the shyness and nerves. Romance starts with getting to know each other, not asking what utility a person has for you. Why would a person be shy about getting to know someone? Fear of rejection, i.e. being denied the thing wanted, is already an indication that a man has gotten ahead of himself, and betrayed his essentially instrumental view of the, ahem, object of his interest. He is trying to make a sale. What do you do when telemarketers call your house?

    I suppose you're too young to remember Beavis and Butthead. Granted, they were dumb, but no matter. Women do not like sexual obsession/desperation.
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  228. @ChrisZ
    LOL! Another winner, Achmed.

    I’m glad you like the humor, Chris. It comes onto the screen a lot easier than the serious writing.

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  229. anon[231] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie
    It's the person-orientation vs. thing-orientation personality dichotomy.

    http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/1948550612444320

    Thing-orientation is associated with persistence and success in STEM, and also,with disagreeableness. See the section titled "external correlates."

    See also "spheres of control." TO people have a lack of self-efficacy about interpersonal relationships. My own unscientific experience is that these men are manipulative and domineering. They lack the ability to assert their wants and needs in an agreeable way and they have no patience for win-win negotiation and compromise. They default to pulling rank. Remember, thing-oriented people ask,

    "What can I do with this?"
    How is this useful to me?"
    "How does this thing work?
    "Where is the instruction manual?
    "It's not serving its purpose. It's defective."

    Not attractive.

    I know this sounds harsh, but the first thing we have to do is figure out the problem so that we can find a solution. I assure you I have no desire to see these men marry Asians or what have you.

    Not attractive.

    That’s weird, because earlier, you said that women didn’t agree on what was attractive, and that you’ve seen women take a shine to all kinds of guys.

    I guess you just meant “all kinds of men except the half or so of men that are thing-oriented”.

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    • Replies: @Rosie

    I guess you just meant “all kinds of men except the half or so of men that are thing-oriented”.
     
    I specifically said funny, smart (in an interesting way), and artistic, did I not?

    Men who are thing oriented can either learn how to be a relatable human being or not. What comes natural to some, others must learn. Not fair, tough shit.
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  230. L Woods says:
    @Yak-15
    Have you ever slept with a prostitute? It can be great but I assure you that it does not build self-esteem or improve your perception of women. If anything, it makes things worse.

    I’ve slept with tindertutes, so yeah basically. It does have a way of pissing you off further after a brief reprieve, now that you mention it. Like how junk food kicks your appetite into overdrive an hour later. Still, it’s the intent that counts: women clearly believe prostitution would diminish the thirst, or they wouldn’t freak out about it as they do.

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    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    Th' expense of spirit in a waste of shame
    Is lust in action; and till action, lust
    Is perjured, murd'rous, bloody, full of blame,
    Savage, extreme, rude, cruel, not to trust,
    Enjoyed no sooner but despisèd straight,
    Past reason hunted; and, no sooner had
    Past reason hated as a swallowed bait
    On purpose laid to make the taker mad;
    Mad in pursuit and in possession so,
    Had, having, and in quest to have, extreme;
    A bliss in proof and proved, a very woe;
    Before, a joy proposed; behind, a dream.
      All this the world well knows; yet none knows well
      To shun the heaven that leads men to this hell.

    --Some Droll Chap

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  231. J.Ross says: • Website

    I can confirm that the article above is fake, as no link, archived or otherwise, was ever offered for it. Later another headline image (again missing the archived link required by board culture) claimed that real BuzzFeed writer Michele Bird had penned “It’s time to rape the creepiness out of incels,” which is a very extreme headline even for an SJW and would have generated attention even if it was promptly withdrawn by an editor. No search or archive I was able to look at has such an article. To verify this I actually visited BuzzFeed. I will never do that again.

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  232. Rosie says:
    @sabril
    Anyway, what's funny is that women treat themselves as rewards for high-achieving men. Which is fine, but if they resent that role they only have themselves to blame.

    In fact, almost all male behaviors and double-standards that women complain about could be changed in a matter of weeks if women would just vote with their p*ssies.

    Anyway, what’s funny is that women treat themselves as rewards for high-achieving men. Which is fine, but if they resent that role they only have themselves to blame.

    In fact, almost all male behaviors and double-standards that women complain about could be changed in a matter of weeks if women would just vote with their p*ssies.

    It’s truly sad that I alone bear the burden of dealing with so much ignorance.

    Look. Women do not treat themselves as prizes. That is complete nonsense. Moreover, we have greatly resented it when we have been forced into marriages against our will, no matter how high status the suitor.

    Stevie Nicks will explain the meaning of young love to you, cynic.

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    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    Give me a break with this Stevie Nicks business. Christy McVie had a much better voice, as heard right here:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXWia0TWAMM

    As always, John McVie plays a mean bass.
    , @sabril
    Lol, so you deny that generally speaking women are attracted to accomplished men?
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  233. @Anonymous
    What's an "object-oriented personality?" Is that like having a closetful of dozens of pairs of shoes? Did you mean rules about having separate sets of cutlery and china depending on who the invited dinner guests are? Sounds toxic

    What’s an “object-oriented personality?”

    That would be where you have different, let’s call them “classes” of personalities (the “nerd” class, the “loudmouthed extrovert” class, etc), each with different functions in life, “methods” if you will. These classes of people have many “properties”, if I may, just like properties of a material. Individual people could be called “instances” of these personality classes.

    I guess that one puts me squarely into the nerd class, doesn’t it? ;-}

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  234. Rosie says:
    @anon
    I’m never going to support forced prostitution.

    What a noble stance to take! Not really what I suggested, though.

    I think it is rather something akin to psychopathy. The manipulative, object-oriented personality that leads men into tech also explains their genuinely dark personalities."

    Uh huh. Well, let's pretend for a minute that this isn't totally deranged.

    It's not like they chose to have that personality, is it? So it's still not the lot they chose.

    If I am right, the solution is not forced prostitution as MGTOW advocate, but help for men who struggle to empathize and relate to other human beings.

    Would this help in being more empathetic be coming from the same people who call them psychopaths? I wonder how well that would work...

    That something else is greed, of course.

    I don't know who ever denied that.

    It’s not like they chose to have that personality, is it? So it’s still not the lot they chose.

    They chose to pursue women out of their league, whom they will never get, owing in part to the fact that attractive girls get attention from men who have decent personalities and therefore a basis of comparison.

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    • Replies: @anon
    They chose to pursue women out of their league, whom they will never get, owing in part to the fact that attractive girls get attention from men who have decent personalities and therefore a basis of comparison.

    Oh. Of course.

    All right, Rosie. You are talking out your ass.

    And I mean no offense. In discussions of modern relationship dynamics, almost everyone is talking out their ass to some extent, and riding their own personal hobby-horses. So I can't really hold that against you.

    But I must restate it. You are talking out your ass.

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  235. @Rosie

    Anyway, what’s funny is that women treat themselves as rewards for high-achieving men. Which is fine, but if they resent that role they only have themselves to blame.

    In fact, almost all male behaviors and double-standards that women complain about could be changed in a matter of weeks if women would just vote with their p*ssies.
     
    It's truly sad that I alone bear the burden of dealing with so much ignorance.

    Look. Women do not treat themselves as prizes. That is complete nonsense. Moreover, we have greatly resented it when we have been forced into marriages against our will, no matter how high status the suitor.

    Stevie Nicks will explain the meaning of young love to you, cynic.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pUW-Ds5DQL8

    Give me a break with this Stevie Nicks business. Christy McVie had a much better voice, as heard right here:

    As always, John McVie plays a mean bass.

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    • Replies: @Clyde

    Stevie Nicks and Christy McVie
     
    Definitely agree with Christine McVie putting out better Mac tunes. Stevie Nicks tunes were often grating. Plus Christine McVie was/ is a very good keyboardist. Like on "You Make Loving Fun"
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  236. @Achmed E. Newman

    The manipulative, object-oriented personality that leads men into tech also explains their genuinely dark personalities. That’s my theory anyway. I’m certainly open to correction.
     
    You got it, Rosie - one correction coming right up.

    Why would you think men who are into ideas and objects rather than people have dark personalities? They just don't get excited about dealing with other people, but are very interested in how things work. There's nothing at all wrong with that.

    At the same time, the urge for sex and the less urgent but still big longing for romance is still there. Because lots of guys don't care that much about the "dealing with people" part, they end up with a big shyness towards girls. They don't really have this with guys and women they don't long for (in "that way") because they just don't care. "Talk with me, don't talk with me - I don't give a rat's ass.". I've been there.

    Because women are almost always not like this, they, including you, may have some idea there is something wrong with these guys. Nope, there's not. You don't understand that lots of people don't need other people. I've never understood the big damn deal about solitary confinement ... especially if they have wireless.

    “The manipulative, object-oriented personality that leads men into tech also explains their genuinely dark personalities.”

    That Steve Wozniak, a real Machiavellian personality!

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    • Replies: @Rosie
    Steve, you're confused. Machiavellians delight in manipulating others into doing as they wish. Incels just want to press a button to get it to "work."
    , @Achmed E. Newman
    That was in a blockquote. I didn't agree with that at all.
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  237. anon[231] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    It’s not like they chose to have that personality, is it? So it’s still not the lot they chose.
     
    They chose to pursue women out of their league, whom they will never get, owing in part to the fact that attractive girls get attention from men who have decent personalities and therefore a basis of comparison.

    They chose to pursue women out of their league, whom they will never get, owing in part to the fact that attractive girls get attention from men who have decent personalities and therefore a basis of comparison.

    Oh. Of course.

    All right, Rosie. You are talking out your ass.

    And I mean no offense. In discussions of modern relationship dynamics, almost everyone is talking out their ass to some extent, and riding their own personal hobby-horses. So I can’t really hold that against you.

    But I must restate it. You are talking out your ass.

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  238. Rosie says:
    @Thea
    Men are not generally attracted to anorexic girls. They are popular only for gay men to use as clothes hangers.

    Likewise, they are not attracted to land whales. If you'd like to see a more even distribution of online dating responses, bring the women all down to a healthy weight.

    Female prospects will soar

    Likewise, they are not attracted to land whales. If you’d like to see a more even distribution of online dating responses, bring the women all down to a healthy weight.

    Female prospects will soar

    That’s not my problem and not my responsibility. If a “land whale” is what they can get, but they refuse, that is their own fault.

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    • Replies: @L Woods
    You are a living, breathing argument for shariah.
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  239. Rosie says:
    @Forbes
    While women chose, and men are chosen, the dilemma (ticking clock) remains for women when all the good men are taken...because you waited to have some fun and ride the carousel...

    Your point? I’m happily married, so none of this is my problem.

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  240. L Woods says:
    @sabril
    Yeah, when an older married (or widowed) guy sees a young couple in love in the park, it makes him happy because it reminds him of his younger days. When an incel sees the same thing, it makes him sad and depressed and angry because it reminds him of what he never had.

    Yeah, exactly. Even if you get your act together later in life, you can’t ever replace those lost years. It literally doesn’t matter at all what happens for the rest of your life — that train is gone forever. That pop culture makes such a big thing of these milestones of course makes it even more painful.

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    • Replies: @sabril
    When you stop and think about it, it's pretty staggering how many movies, television shows, popular books, popular music, etc. are about New Love; Boy Meets Girl; and this type of topic.
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  241. Rosie says:
    @Steve Sailer
    "The manipulative, object-oriented personality that leads men into tech also explains their genuinely dark personalities."

    That Steve Wozniak, a real Machiavellian personality!

    Steve, you’re confused. Machiavellians delight in manipulating others into doing as they wish. Incels just want to press a button to get it to “work.”

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    • Replies: @anon
    Steve, you’re confused. Machiavellians delight in manipulating others into doing as they wish.

    I think his point was that Steve Wozniak failed pretty dramatically to manipulate anyone, and in fact, actually let another guy basically walk all over him.
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  242. L Woods says:
    @Rosie

    Likewise, they are not attracted to land whales. If you’d like to see a more even distribution of online dating responses, bring the women all down to a healthy weight.

    Female prospects will soar
     
    That's not my problem and not my responsibility. If a "land whale" is what they can get, but they refuse, that is their own fault.

    You are a living, breathing argument for shariah.

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  243. Rosie says:
    @anon
    Not attractive.

    That's weird, because earlier, you said that women didn't agree on what was attractive, and that you've seen women take a shine to all kinds of guys.

    I guess you just meant "all kinds of men except the half or so of men that are thing-oriented".

    I guess you just meant “all kinds of men except the half or so of men that are thing-oriented”.

    I specifically said funny, smart (in an interesting way), and artistic, did I not?

    Men who are thing oriented can either learn how to be a relatable human being or not. What comes natural to some, others must learn. Not fair, tough shit.

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    • Replies: @anon
    I specifically said funny, smart (in an interesting way), and artistic, did I not?

    Actually, you didn't say that, but you said that some similar things were the most important. But you also said "And yes, this is something I actually believe. I have seen women take a shine to guys based on all sorts of different qualities."

    So, again. You didn't really mean "all sorts", did you?

    Men who are thing oriented can either learn how to be a relatable human being or not. What comes natural to some, others must learn. Not fair, tough shit.


    Fine, fine. Just pointing out that you weren't exactly being truthful when you said that women found all kinds of different men attractive, were you?
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  244. @Joe Stalin
    The old "Hawaiian Tropic" swim wear contestants are probably what normal men consider attractive in terms body types.

    https://www.gettyimages.com/photos/hawaiian-tropic-models?sort=mostpopular&mediatype=photography&phrase=hawaiian%20tropic%20models

    That works for me, Joe. (I’m on page 4 now.)

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  245. Rosie says:
    @James N. Kennett

    I have seen women take a shine to guys based on all sorts of different qualities. Sense of humor, intellect, and musical ability are the most important.
     
    Your selection of anecdotes is disingenuous. I have seen a man who won the Fields Medal. It doesn't mean that this is a typical attribute of men.

    In my own social circle the men who are most attractive to women are the ones who are confident, ebullient, thick-skinned, irrationally self-confident - almost irrespective of their financial circumstances, height, appearance, or fidelity.

    Ellen Pao probably just wants more attractive men in tech workplaces. Incels are, by definition, not attractive, and she wants them replaced by hunkier specimens, irrespective of their productivity. The fortunes of her company do not matter - which chimes with her mediocre track record as a CEO.

    Your selection of anecdotes is disingenuous. I have seen a man who won the Fields Medal. It doesn’t mean that this is a typical attribute of men.

    Irrelevant. Women like funny guys even though they are not famous comedians. I suspect this is an evolved preference for men who are less likely to kill them or their children. Humor is a coping mechanism.

    Same with musicians and intellectuals.

    Ellen Pao probably just wants more attractive men in tech workplaces.

    I could care less what Ellen Pao wants. I do insist that MGTOWs stop slandering and threatening women, though.

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    • Replies: @anon
    I could care less what Ellen Pao wants. I do insist that MGTOWs stop slandering and threatening women, though.

    Out of curiosity, how effective would you say this insistence will be, particularly after suggesting that non-funny men are likely to kill women and their children?
    , @Stebbing Heuer

    MGTOW
     
    You keep using that word.

    I do not think it means what you think it means.
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  246. iSteve, your blog is just sooo 40 minutes ago.

    Hotair had a link to a British news source with this

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3208366/Programming-cheerleaders-hired-motivate-Chinese-employees.html

    In China they have this thing solved.

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  247. @Steve Sailer
    "The manipulative, object-oriented personality that leads men into tech also explains their genuinely dark personalities."

    That Steve Wozniak, a real Machiavellian personality!

    That was in a blockquote. I didn’t agree with that at all.

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  248. @Tyrion 2
    They should remake 40 Year Old Virgin and rather than being quite a sweet and affecting if degenerate comedy that sympathised with the main character and his struggles, it could be a horror story where the eponymous virgin is a creepy, malevolent freak who eventually gets hunted down by the chick from The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo, as played by Ellen Pao.

    Amd while doing that they could make a movie where the bad guy is homeless, or disabled or just the Elephant Man. Then again, maybe Ellen really is implying that the tech company should hire some prostitutes - obviously that is what this incel lot should do for themselves. It is the traditional remedy for acute male sexual anxiety.

    “maybe Ellen really is implying that the tech company should hire some prostitutes”

    Maybe Ellen should offer herself up on the altar of inclusion. After all, if that woman were truly interested in being a social worker, then she would voluntarily give herself whole heartedly to any guy out there who isn’t getting or can’t get laid. Doing that would do more good and relieve more suffering than all the diversity and inclusion crap she’s ever written or lectured about.

    How bout it Ellen?

    Time to put out or shut up.

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    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    Maybe she's not very good at it herself.
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  249. anon[231] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    I guess you just meant “all kinds of men except the half or so of men that are thing-oriented”.
     
    I specifically said funny, smart (in an interesting way), and artistic, did I not?

    Men who are thing oriented can either learn how to be a relatable human being or not. What comes natural to some, others must learn. Not fair, tough shit.

    I specifically said funny, smart (in an interesting way), and artistic, did I not?

    Actually, you didn’t say that, but you said that some similar things were the most important. But you also said “And yes, this is something I actually believe. I have seen women take a shine to guys based on all sorts of different qualities.”

    So, again. You didn’t really mean “all sorts”, did you?

    Men who are thing oriented can either learn how to be a relatable human being or not. What comes natural to some, others must learn. Not fair, tough shit.

    Fine, fine. Just pointing out that you weren’t exactly being truthful when you said that women found all kinds of different men attractive, were you?

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  250. anon[231] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    Your selection of anecdotes is disingenuous. I have seen a man who won the Fields Medal. It doesn’t mean that this is a typical attribute of men.
     
    Irrelevant. Women like funny guys even though they are not famous comedians. I suspect this is an evolved preference for men who are less likely to kill them or their children. Humor is a coping mechanism.

    Same with musicians and intellectuals.

    Ellen Pao probably just wants more attractive men in tech workplaces.
     
    I could care less what Ellen Pao wants. I do insist that MGTOWs stop slandering and threatening women, though.

    I could care less what Ellen Pao wants. I do insist that MGTOWs stop slandering and threatening women, though.

    Out of curiosity, how effective would you say this insistence will be, particularly after suggesting that non-funny men are likely to kill women and their children?

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    • Replies: @Rosie

    Out of curiosity, how effective would you say this insistence will be...
     
    Over the long term, very effective. Truth is a powerful ally.

    particularly after suggesting that non-funny men are likely to kill women and their children?
     
    What's the matter? You can dish it out, but you can't take it? I thought we weren't politically correct around here?

    I'm going to take a wild guess and say that if someone were to engage in a little noticing of patterns regarding domestic violence, humorless perpetrators would be "overrepresented."

    Of course, that's not to say that all unfunny men are likely to kill their mates and children. Any particular unfunny individual may well be very unlikely to do so. That doesn't change the fact that, over time, an attraction to funny men may have had an adaptive advantage for women.

    Being less likely to be killed by their mate, they left more surviving offspring, etc. I assume you know the rest since the evolutionary implications of women's dating preferences are such a hot topic around these parts.
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  251. Rosie says:
    @Whiskey
    This is why Germany was filled with young White men holding refugees welcome signs.

    Oh wait it was all aging cat lady types wanting violent young men.

    This is why every sensible society restrains female hyoergamy

    It’s not our fault the Germans hate themselves, Whiskey. That’s your fault. I know you are trying to convince people that it’s actually all women’s fault that men kill and humiliate each other, but at least I am not that stupid.

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    • Replies: @Whiskey
    The proven quickest shortcut to getting laid is violence. Ask any aspiring rapper or read John Wesley Hardins autobiography.

    Id rather not duck bullets so some dude gets laid like in the ghetto. Ymmv.

    Indeed you are exhibit A on how women viscerally hate hate hate lower status males.

    Thank you sincerely for making my points. Your solution is more virgin shaming instead of a solution to violence. It's all you have.

    And this folks is what is driving th is incel hunt. I'm sure Google, run really by Susan Wojicki, will purge all icels in a White make nerd hunt. Same with the rest.

    Men with nothing to lose who had good paying jobs and technical knowledge.

    That's like firing your nuke scientists because they are icky.

    Hope everyone here is fine with no power for weeks
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  252. Rosie says:
    @Handel

    Your average Incel is not a hook-up guy. He is not a one-night-stand guy. He wants a long-term spouse. He doesn’t have the nervous system to endure the social stress of one-night stands. That’s for extroverts. He likes to kid himself that he does, but he doesn’t.
     
    I am sorry, but I don't think you understand what an 'incel' is. Are you confusing 'incel' with introvert?

    Incels are involuntarily celibate. Majority rank at the bottom of the barrel. On attractiveness scales, think 2/10, or below. They don't have status, charisma, or anything else to make them desirable. To make matters worse, they are mentally damaged from years of bullying in public schools, where their peers looked at them with contempt.

    Your advice is sound for a small subset of these 'incel' men, specifically those with avoidant personalities who get anxious / shy around women, but it is old-fashioned I'm afraid. It would hardly work in today's fast-paced sexual marketplace.

    Now, how do you help these people? They are leftovers. Nobody wants them. They know it. And while society may benefit from their labor, it is unclear who/what they are working towards.

    I agree that getting to know someone takes time, and with enough time spent together, perhaps a female might be interested, but let's not kid ourselves. Incel men went through a decade of school, and another four/five years of college without a kiss. They are literally kissless virgins who have not had female friends through decades of socialization in a shared environment. You may find it hard to believe, but these people really exist! I assure you! One of my best friends... prime example... He makes 80k/yr in IT, but he is mentally screwed up. Girls don't look at him. He is awkward. He is a kissless virgin.

    And here's the sad part: I don't think you or I can really help these people! This generation was born before the internet era and still grew up believing that if they worked hard and had a career, that they might perhaps find a modest girl who would be willing to settle on them, but those times are over. Hypergamy and the Tinder/toxic hook-up culture has killed off any hopes for the Incel. Outside of mail-order brides and SE Asia, they are screwed, and they know it.

    A woman today would much rather choose the hook-up culture through Facebook/Instagram/Tinder apps than to date such a man. And there are few consequences to pursuing that lifestyle. Pregnancy is one consequence, but is it all that bad? She can be in her teens and give birth out of wedlock, we see this frequently. But it is no problem for the single mom. After all, the state is always there to help father and raise the kid.

    FACT: Incels are not needed by society. If they are lucky, their mother loves them...

    ... and it is anyone's guess as to why there are so few killings by a deranged subset of these individuals. They never get any respect.

    They don’t have status, charisma, or anything else to make them desirable. To make matters worse, they are mentally damaged from years of bullying in public schools, where their peers looked at them with contempt.

    I quite agree with this. Unfortunately, when women teachers try to crack down on bullying, they’re accused of feminizing boys or some such. I suppose perhaps they are, but then it doesn’t make sense to blame those same women for the results of the laissez-faire approach.

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  253. Rosie says:
    @Anon
    Rosie, Mr Blank’s never going to come within hundreds of miles of a model or actress. So who cares what his opinions about the women he sees on screen or in magazines are.

    Rosie, Mr Blank’s never going to come within hundreds of miles of a model or actress. So who cares what his opinions about the women he sees on screen or in magazines are.

    Supermodels aside, young girls take their cues about what is considered beautiful from images they see in the media. If you don’t care about that, then you don’t care about girls.

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  254. anon[231] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie
    Steve, you're confused. Machiavellians delight in manipulating others into doing as they wish. Incels just want to press a button to get it to "work."

    Steve, you’re confused. Machiavellians delight in manipulating others into doing as they wish.

    I think his point was that Steve Wozniak failed pretty dramatically to manipulate anyone, and in fact, actually let another guy basically walk all over him.

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    • Replies: @Rosie

    I think his point was that Steve Wozniak failed pretty dramatically to manipulate anyone, and in fact, actually let another guy basically walk all over him.
     
    Then I have shown my ignorance. I will educate myself.
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  255. Rosie says:
    @fish2
    I think the sheer popularity of BBW porn online should put this idea that men find anorexia attractive to rest. Sounds to me like conditioning has a lot more effect on what men say they like as opposed to the reality.

    I was going to make a long post about what I, a former incel who dealt with the extremely screwed up dating world for modern young people (especially young males), discovered and found out (it's a lot more complex and grey than any one ideological bent would have it), and what I did about it, but... really, looking at what this thread has turned into, I ain't in the mood now. Going to go to prepare for meeting my girlfriend tomorrow.

    I think the sheer popularity of BBW porn online should put this idea that men find anorexia attractive to rest. Sounds to me like conditioning has a lot more effect on what men say they like as opposed to the reality.

    Still no acknowledgement of the effect on impressionable girls.

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  256. nebulafox says:
    @WHAT
    You assume wrong. A whore that has "seen it all" will find a client that has a problem even getting it up pitiful and annoying, with the accompanying intercourse quality, if it even happens. Not everybody can do the deed after a couple of something strong as well.

    Cue even more depression for the nerd either way.

    Whores, like anybody else, come in all personality flavors, just as they come in all shapes, sizes, and colors. Some will get annoyed. Some will get mad. Some will smile and do whatever they need to do to get him off and get out of there quickly. Some will feel pity, or in the case of older ones, pseudo-maternal feelings. Some will think its cute and get turned on.

    My favorite story is of this one hooker who got an elderly gentlemen as a client, hadn’t had sex in years. He took a very heavy dose of Viagra before the meeting. He was really excited, came in with this big old grin on his face, standing “at attention” in his khakis. The girl smiles, is all seductive, pulls his pants down… and then, that’s all he wrote, over her face. Both had cause to be annoyed… but the situation was so flat-out ridiculous that they ended up laughing their butts off. They ended up playing checkers all evening long and parted on very friendly terms.

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  257. Rosie says:
    @anon
    I have seen women take a shine to guys based on all sorts of different qualities. Sense of humor, intellect, and musical ability are the most important.

    OK, well. That's three qualities. And I do not believe, nor will I ever believe, that intellect is even in the top ten.

    When I was in college, there were a lot of guys on my dorm floor who were in engineering and computer science. I got to know them and kept in touch with some of them throughout college.

    I know for a fact that the majority of those guys never went on a single date throughout college. You know how I know? Because when one of the others did, it was like a major event in their little group.

    Those guys were in the top ten percent of intellect in the university, so probably in the top one percent of the population at large. So why weren't women throwing themselves at them?

    I had better luck than they did, and I don't mind telling you that they were smarter than I was. And personality-wise, I tend towards crabbiness about half the time. And I have less musical talent than the average fourth-grader with a plastic recorder.

    And most of these guys weren't ugly. One of them was (in my admittedly non-female opinion) rather handsome, actually. They weren't exactly buff, but they were roughly average for the people at that time and place. If you didn't know them, they'd look just like average guys on campus.

    And they weren't assholes, either. They had some odd habits due to the fact that they never had any women around, but they were nice and polite and considerate. They seemed mostly resigned to their fate. They weren't happy about being single, but they didn't sit around bitching about it either, at least that I ever saw. They seemed to look at getting a girlfriend like winning a million dollars would be. Sure, it'd be nice if it happened, and you wish it would, but it's not going to, so there's no point complaining about it.

    I don't really keep up on all the manosphere stuff, so maybe they have an explanation for it. I don't know. I just know for a fact that the explanation you've provided is just totally false. I imagine that you probably just don't actually have any experience being around guys like that, so I wouldn't expect you to know about it up close, though.

    OK, well. That’s three qualities. And I do not believe, nor will I ever believe, that intellect is even in the top ten.

    Here you have admitted that you are impervious to reason.

    Let me help you with this. Read Luke 10:38-42 and get back to me.

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+10%3A38-42&version=NIV

    Those guys were in the top ten percent of intellect in the university, so probably in the top one percent of the population at large. So why weren’t women throwing themselves at them?

    That’s not the kind of intelligence women find attractive. Nor do they find it unattractive. They are indifferent.

    I imagine that you probably just don’t actually have any experience being around guys like that, so I wouldn’t expect you to know about it up close, though.

    Yes. I do, actually. I am married to a very intelligent man. His whole family is highly intelligent, and the guys in STEM are disagreeable, opinionated, and controlling. I literally once had one comment on the inefficiency of my method of folding my husbands polo shirts. I’m not kidding. It gets to the point where you can’t stand being around them, because you know you’re under the microscope.

    Now, perhaps my low opinion of them is merely the result of natural in-law tension. I fully acknowledge that possibility, but I certainly do not lack experience with them.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon
    Here you have admitted that you are impervious to reason.

    Oh, no! Again?

    Gosh, first I admitted that to the Hotep guys, and now to you. What IS my problem?

    Let me help you with this. Read Luke 10:38-42 and get back to me.

    Well.

    You've left me speechless. Do you know how rare that is?

    That’s not the kind of intelligence women find attractive. Nor do they find it unattractive. They are indifferent.


    Oh. I see. So, when you said that women find intelligence attractive, you didn't actually mean it. Thanks!

    Yes. I do, actually.

    How do you have personal experience, as a woman, with guys who have basically no contact with women?

    His whole family is highly intelligent, and the guys in STEM are disagreeable, opinionated, and controlling.

    Sounds like you have a really great life. Truly, the kind of person who needs to be giving advice!

    At any rate. These guys just weren't like that. I know this. I knew them personally. A couple of them got jobs in the computer labs at school, and I would see them going out of their way to help people. You're just not right here.

    And your whole thing about them going after women who are out of their league is bogus too. I witnessed far too many scenes of these guys actually trying to talk to the local landwhales, only to get shot down, to believe that. When you see something as cringey as that, it leaves an impression on you.

    I get that people like things to be simple. But they're not always.
    , @Joe Stalin
    The pastor of an engineer-physicist I know consoled his bride-to-be that he "lives in his own little world" and she has to accept that. I assume that is a common trait for math-type people. I remember reading an article in a tech magazine about how different engineers are: a guy engineer went to work but had a sock clinging to his shirt from static; not a single engineer mentioned it to him and it wasn't discovered until his wife mentioned it when he finally got home.
    , @Pericles

    I literally once had one comment on the inefficiency of my method of folding my husbands polo shirts. I’m not kidding.

     

    Lol, the worm should have known better than to mansplain woman's work ... on the other hand, maybe you could have learned something.
    , @grapesoda
    I gotta know... which suitcase did you pack the strap-on in? I mean because I could see it both ways. Because it's technically yours, but ultimately it's "for him" lol
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  258. Rosie says:
    @anon
    Steve, you’re confused. Machiavellians delight in manipulating others into doing as they wish.

    I think his point was that Steve Wozniak failed pretty dramatically to manipulate anyone, and in fact, actually let another guy basically walk all over him.

    I think his point was that Steve Wozniak failed pretty dramatically to manipulate anyone, and in fact, actually let another guy basically walk all over him.

    Then I have shown my ignorance. I will educate myself.

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  259. Steve,

    Look at all these comments. And you haven’t even yet thrown a dash of gasoline upon the fire

    Next time, how about listening to me when I recommend a topic, ok?

    I’ve got some ideas for how to expand this topic and get a lot of donations from incels to you.

    Best,

    Anonymous Human Intelligence Operative

    Oh yeah, after they come for the incels, certainly the iSteve set cannot be far behind.

    Read More
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  260. anon[231] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    OK, well. That’s three qualities. And I do not believe, nor will I ever believe, that intellect is even in the top ten.
     
    Here you have admitted that you are impervious to reason.

    Let me help you with this. Read Luke 10:38-42 and get back to me.

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+10%3A38-42&version=NIV

    Those guys were in the top ten percent of intellect in the university, so probably in the top one percent of the population at large. So why weren’t women throwing themselves at them?
     
    That's not the kind of intelligence women find attractive. Nor do they find it unattractive. They are indifferent.

    I imagine that you probably just don’t actually have any experience being around guys like that, so I wouldn’t expect you to know about it up close, though.
     
    Yes. I do, actually. I am married to a very intelligent man. His whole family is highly intelligent, and the guys in STEM are disagreeable, opinionated, and controlling. I literally once had one comment on the inefficiency of my method of folding my husbands polo shirts. I'm not kidding. It gets to the point where you can't stand being around them, because you know you're under the microscope.

    Now, perhaps my low opinion of them is merely the result of natural in-law tension. I fully acknowledge that possibility, but I certainly do not lack experience with them.

    Here you have admitted that you are impervious to reason.

    Oh, no! Again?

    Gosh, first I admitted that to the Hotep guys, and now to you. What IS my problem?

    Let me help you with this. Read Luke 10:38-42 and get back to me.

    Well.

    You’ve left me speechless. Do you know how rare that is?

    That’s not the kind of intelligence women find attractive. Nor do they find it unattractive. They are indifferent.

    Oh. I see. So, when you said that women find intelligence attractive, you didn’t actually mean it. Thanks!

    Yes. I do, actually.

    How do you have personal experience, as a woman, with guys who have basically no contact with women?

    His whole family is highly intelligent, and the guys in STEM are disagreeable, opinionated, and controlling.

    Sounds like you have a really great life. Truly, the kind of person who needs to be giving advice!

    At any rate. These guys just weren’t like that. I know this. I knew them personally. A couple of them got jobs in the computer labs at school, and I would see them going out of their way to help people. You’re just not right here.

    And your whole thing about them going after women who are out of their league is bogus too. I witnessed far too many scenes of these guys actually trying to talk to the local landwhales, only to get shot down, to believe that. When you see something as cringey as that, it leaves an impression on you.

    I get that people like things to be simple. But they’re not always.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rosie

    Oh. I see. So, when you said that women find intelligence attractive, you didn’t actually mean it. Thanks.
     
    I very much did mean it. I thought it was well-known in these parts that intelligence is multifaceted.

    How do you have personal experience, as a woman, with guys who have basically no contact with women?
     
    Didn't I answer that in the post you're quoting here?

    And your whole thing about them going after women who are out of their league is bogus too.
     
    The data say otherwise.
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  261. Rosie says:
    @anon
    I could care less what Ellen Pao wants. I do insist that MGTOWs stop slandering and threatening women, though.

    Out of curiosity, how effective would you say this insistence will be, particularly after suggesting that non-funny men are likely to kill women and their children?

    Out of curiosity, how effective would you say this insistence will be…

    Over the long term, very effective. Truth is a powerful ally.

    particularly after suggesting that non-funny men are likely to kill women and their children?

    What’s the matter? You can dish it out, but you can’t take it? I thought we weren’t politically correct around here?

    I’m going to take a wild guess and say that if someone were to engage in a little noticing of patterns regarding domestic violence, humorless perpetrators would be “overrepresented.”

    Of course, that’s not to say that all unfunny men are likely to kill their mates and children. Any particular unfunny individual may well be very unlikely to do so. That doesn’t change the fact that, over time, an attraction to funny men may have had an adaptive advantage for women.

    Being less likely to be killed by their mate, they left more surviving offspring, etc. I assume you know the rest since the evolutionary implications of women’s dating preferences are such a hot topic around these parts.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon
    Over the long term, very effective. Truth is a powerful ally.

    If that was true, our gracious host would be a millionaire and Bill Kristol would be homeless.

    What’s the matter? You can dish it out, but you can’t take it? I thought we weren’t politically correct around here?

    Of course I can. But you said you were trying to convince the MGTOWs, not me.

    I’m going to take a wild guess and say that if someone were to engage in a little noticing of patterns regarding domestic violence, humorless perpetrators would be “overrepresented.”

    That is a wild guess. Lots of black guys have a pretty good sense of humor. Those women they beat up were attracted to them for some reason, weren't they?

    That doesn’t change the fact that, over time, an attraction to funny men may have had an adaptive advantage for women.

    It may, or it may just be something you made up.

    Being less likely to be killed by their mate, they left more surviving offspring, etc.

    If that was all there was to it, women would be more attracted to men with low testosterone, since they're less likely to kill anyone.

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  262. njguy73 says:
    @fish2
    I've occasionally contemplated this in the "what would I do as an absolute dictator of the United States?" moments. But as other commentators have pointed out and as I know from experience, the stereotypical incel (there are several types, but let's go with the most common image of the Aspergery tech geek) isn't inclined to casual sex, for reasons ranging from personality to their typical activities of interest. I'm not saying organized, legal, and strictly voluntary prostitution couldn't be useful in other ways, mind, but this wouldn't be the cure-all for this specific issue. It certainly doesn't help that they are constantly told to have empathy with those complaining about getting too much attention when they themselves struggle to get any.

    (Whoever said courtship was easy? I think American pop culture's hyper-obsession, almost high-school like, with relationships seriously skews both gender's perceptions of what is normal.)

    One thing I'd recommend to STEM type geeks is to check out the more female heavy doctoral departments-especially things like biology or chemical engineering, but also linguistics, history, anything that takes serious intellectual effort-where they can find more women who share, among other things, their scientific curiosity. If they are fellow introverts, they share romantic tastes, if they are an extrovert, they might end up creating a weird "let's improve each other" exotic symmetry.

    One thing I’d recommend to STEM type geeks is to check out the more female heavy doctoral departments-especially things like biology or chemical engineering, but also linguistics, history, anything that takes serious intellectual effort-where they can find more women who share, among other things, their scientific curiosity. If they are fellow introverts, they share romantic tastes, if they are an extrovert, they might end up creating a weird “let’s improve each other” exotic symmetry.

    STEM type geeks do that. I know several married couples like that.

    Incels don’t do that. Incels consider checking out women like that as the equivalent of failure.

    There seems to be some confusion between “geek” and “incel.” A geek would be happy to be in a comfortable relationship with a woman who shares his values. An incel sees women as a status symbol that he’s entitled to. It’s not a matter of having “Game” or the right look. It’s a matter of viewing humans as autonomous beings or as items to posses.

    Read More
    • Agree: Rosie
    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    The second is Rodgers in a nutshell. He didn't want to join the geek country club, even if the swimming pools were nicer. He wanted the Kewl Kids Klub, and if ya can't join 'em, beat 'em.
    , @Pericles

    An incel sees women as a status symbol that he’s entitled to. It’s not a matter of having “Game” or the right look. It’s a matter of viewing humans as autonomous beings or as items to posses.

     

    So 'incel' is your word for feminist talking point 'creep' or 'beta'?
    , @L Woods
    Non-ironic, pejorative use of the word “entitled” is the surest sign of an argument and arguer not worth taking seriously.
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  263. @anon
    I have seen women take a shine to guys based on all sorts of different qualities. Sense of humor, intellect, and musical ability are the most important.

    OK, well. That's three qualities. And I do not believe, nor will I ever believe, that intellect is even in the top ten.

    When I was in college, there were a lot of guys on my dorm floor who were in engineering and computer science. I got to know them and kept in touch with some of them throughout college.

    I know for a fact that the majority of those guys never went on a single date throughout college. You know how I know? Because when one of the others did, it was like a major event in their little group.

    Those guys were in the top ten percent of intellect in the university, so probably in the top one percent of the population at large. So why weren't women throwing themselves at them?

    I had better luck than they did, and I don't mind telling you that they were smarter than I was. And personality-wise, I tend towards crabbiness about half the time. And I have less musical talent than the average fourth-grader with a plastic recorder.

    And most of these guys weren't ugly. One of them was (in my admittedly non-female opinion) rather handsome, actually. They weren't exactly buff, but they were roughly average for the people at that time and place. If you didn't know them, they'd look just like average guys on campus.

    And they weren't assholes, either. They had some odd habits due to the fact that they never had any women around, but they were nice and polite and considerate. They seemed mostly resigned to their fate. They weren't happy about being single, but they didn't sit around bitching about it either, at least that I ever saw. They seemed to look at getting a girlfriend like winning a million dollars would be. Sure, it'd be nice if it happened, and you wish it would, but it's not going to, so there's no point complaining about it.

    I don't really keep up on all the manosphere stuff, so maybe they have an explanation for it. I don't know. I just know for a fact that the explanation you've provided is just totally false. I imagine that you probably just don't actually have any experience being around guys like that, so I wouldn't expect you to know about it up close, though.

    Sounds like a great market to be exploited by “match makers.” There has got to be a whole lot of females that are willing to “lower your standards” to locate a nice, intelligent “provider.” Maybe some women could latch onto some modeling agency and use the ones that don’t rate a “10″ as candidates.

    Why? I remember reading a “Dear Abby” or equivalent letter where a girl said she basically ignored some guy and THEN she discovered he was now following a career path to become an MD. So she was looking for a “provider” in other words. A guy with decent reliable income I am sure will make some pretty woman happy. STEM people will have good income until they are kicked out by your imported H1-B.

    “Summary. “Engineering is “the people-serving profession.” ”

    Someone needs to take that to heart and supply them with females!

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  264. anon[231] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    Out of curiosity, how effective would you say this insistence will be...
     
    Over the long term, very effective. Truth is a powerful ally.

    particularly after suggesting that non-funny men are likely to kill women and their children?
     
    What's the matter? You can dish it out, but you can't take it? I thought we weren't politically correct around here?

    I'm going to take a wild guess and say that if someone were to engage in a little noticing of patterns regarding domestic violence, humorless perpetrators would be "overrepresented."

    Of course, that's not to say that all unfunny men are likely to kill their mates and children. Any particular unfunny individual may well be very unlikely to do so. That doesn't change the fact that, over time, an attraction to funny men may have had an adaptive advantage for women.

    Being less likely to be killed by their mate, they left more surviving offspring, etc. I assume you know the rest since the evolutionary implications of women's dating preferences are such a hot topic around these parts.

    Over the long term, very effective. Truth is a powerful ally.

    If that was true, our gracious host would be a millionaire and Bill Kristol would be homeless.

    What’s the matter? You can dish it out, but you can’t take it? I thought we weren’t politically correct around here?

    Of course I can. But you said you were trying to convince the MGTOWs, not me.

    I’m going to take a wild guess and say that if someone were to engage in a little noticing of patterns regarding domestic violence, humorless perpetrators would be “overrepresented.”

    That is a wild guess. Lots of black guys have a pretty good sense of humor. Those women they beat up were attracted to them for some reason, weren’t they?

    That doesn’t change the fact that, over time, an attraction to funny men may have had an adaptive advantage for women.

    It may, or it may just be something you made up.

    Being less likely to be killed by their mate, they left more surviving offspring, etc.

    If that was all there was to it, women would be more attracted to men with low testosterone, since they’re less likely to kill anyone.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rosie

    If that was true, our gracious host would be a millionaire and Bill Kristol would be homeless.
     
    Your lack of faith disturbs me. Are you suggesting that his efforts are in vain?

    That is a wild guess. Lots of black guys have a pretty good sense of humor. Those women they beat up were attracted to them for some reason, weren’t they?
     
    Some black guys are funny.
    Some black guys beat up women.
    Therefore, some funny black guys beat up women.

    Don't try to bullshit me. It won't work.


    It may, or it may just be something you made up.
     
    Right, we call that a hypothesis. Unlike the MGTOW, I am honest enough to admit that my hypotheses are just that, pure speculation.

    If that was all there was to it, women would be more attracted to men with low testosterone, since they’re less likely to kill anyone.
     
    True, but then they would also be useless as protectors wouldn't they?

    Thanks for playing.

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  265. njguy73 says:
    @Tyrion 2

    Hiring a prostitute still has the accompanying performance anxiety
     
    I assume most prostitutes would find that sweet. It can only be preferable to the attitude their other customers likely show.

    Also, if you're getting performance anxiety with a girl who is paid to have sex with you and has probably seen it all then your problems run deep. Either tell her or have a few drinks first.

    not always legally safe
     
    It is perfectly legal in the UK. The reason is not because of 'progressive' reasons but simply because it is all but impossible to prove that your sexual transaction was for money.

    In all places where sex between strangers is not illegal, prostitution is de facto legal. (The line between the two is very blurry and in some countries it even may depend how the girl feels the next morning.)

    Wouldn’t a doughy nerd just invite swindling attempts, at the very least
     
    How are they going to get swindled? I assume the doughy nerd knows what sexual intercourse is and therefore if the prostitute has done her job?

    The biggest issue is that the doughy nerd is likely to fall in love with the prostitute, which is pitiful.

    I would also like to say that I neither use nor advocate visiting prostitutes. It is a desperate option when just getting a grip should be first. The only other alternative if you get to this stage is arranged marriage. There are companies that will do this for you too.

    I assume most prostitutes would find that sweet.

    Yeah, ’cause she’s got a heart of gold (eyeroll)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    Even people with a heart of soot can find things sweet.
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  266. @Rosie

    OK, well. That’s three qualities. And I do not believe, nor will I ever believe, that intellect is even in the top ten.
     
    Here you have admitted that you are impervious to reason.

    Let me help you with this. Read Luke 10:38-42 and get back to me.

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+10%3A38-42&version=NIV

    Those guys were in the top ten percent of intellect in the university, so probably in the top one percent of the population at large. So why weren’t women throwing themselves at them?
     
    That's not the kind of intelligence women find attractive. Nor do they find it unattractive. They are indifferent.

    I imagine that you probably just don’t actually have any experience being around guys like that, so I wouldn’t expect you to know about it up close, though.
     
    Yes. I do, actually. I am married to a very intelligent man. His whole family is highly intelligent, and the guys in STEM are disagreeable, opinionated, and controlling. I literally once had one comment on the inefficiency of my method of folding my husbands polo shirts. I'm not kidding. It gets to the point where you can't stand being around them, because you know you're under the microscope.

    Now, perhaps my low opinion of them is merely the result of natural in-law tension. I fully acknowledge that possibility, but I certainly do not lack experience with them.

    The pastor of an engineer-physicist I know consoled his bride-to-be that he “lives in his own little world” and she has to accept that. I assume that is a common trait for math-type people. I remember reading an article in a tech magazine about how different engineers are: a guy engineer went to work but had a sock clinging to his shirt from static; not a single engineer mentioned it to him and it wasn’t discovered until his wife mentioned it when he finally got home.

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  267. njguy73 says:
    @Intelligent Dasein
    Yes, I agree. The term "incel" is meaningless.

    In order to technically qualify as an incel, you would have to be fully committed to having sex, making every reasonable attempt to do so, and yet striking out time after time, every time. This would be an exceedingly rare creature indeed. In a society this large, with so many women about, virtually any man can find some woman to have sex with if he keeps applying himself.

    I think the real issue here is men who are conditionally celibate. Their thought process runs something like....

    "Sure, I would like to be having more sex, but I would also like to end up with a solid relationship, a good companion, and a family out of the deal. But most women today come with way too much baggage, and I just don't want that kind of drama in my life. The hot girls attract too much attention from the wrong kind of guys; I could never be confident of their loyalty, and they would probably be lazy and high-maintenance anyway. And even the not-so-hot girls are possessed of far too much attitude these days. If I could meet a good girl who liked me and respected me, then things would be different. But where do you find such women? They seem to have disappeared. I don't want to chase around some THOT just so I can say I say I have girlfriend. The bottom line is, if a girl isn't going to be good to me, then I don't really need her. I know as a man I'm supposed to act as if one's sexual score is everything, but really it isn't. There are other things in life more important than having non-reproductive, non-relationship sex with crazy women. I don't have the energy or the desire to pursue it any longer, but in order to avoid the censure of a sexually obsessed society, I 'm going to have to drop out of the social scene altogether. It's sad and painful, but I have no choice under the circumstances."
     
    The celibacy of such a man may not be desired, but it is entirely "voluntary" in the Aristotelian sense. Now the real question is, why do people like execrable Roissy and his ilk reserve their harshest invective for men taking this entirely reasonable (albeit unfortunate) position? Why ridicule them as betas, incels, losers, and so forth? They aren't any of these things. They're just men who've realized that the rewards are no longer worth the stakes. Why does Roissy bear in his heart a hatred for men who've had enough of his stupid "game" and aren't going to play anymore? It can only be because the spiritual purity of such a position completely outclasses his own venal and pathetic obsession.

    Roissy is not the answer to society's ills. He is part of the illness himself.

    Why does Roissy bear in his heart a hatred for men who’ve had enough of his stupid “game” and aren’t going to play anymore?

    Men who’ve had enough of this stupid “game” don’t click onto Roissy’s website. Men who aren’t going to play anymore don’t plunk down money for Game seminars. Therefore, there are of no use to Roissy.

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  268. Whiskey says: • Website
    @Rosie
    It's not our fault the Germans hate themselves, Whiskey. That's your fault. I know you are trying to convince people that it's actually all women's fault that men kill and humiliate each other, but at least I am not that stupid.

    The proven quickest shortcut to getting laid is violence. Ask any aspiring rapper or read John Wesley Hardins autobiography.

    Id rather not duck bullets so some dude gets laid like in the ghetto. Ymmv.

    Indeed you are exhibit A on how women viscerally hate hate hate lower status males.

    Thank you sincerely for making my points. Your solution is more virgin shaming instead of a solution to violence. It’s all you have.

    And this folks is what is driving th is incel hunt. I’m sure Google, run really by Susan Wojicki, will purge all icels in a White make nerd hunt. Same with the rest.

    Men with nothing to lose who had good paying jobs and technical knowledge.

    That’s like firing your nuke scientists because they are icky.

    Hope everyone here is fine with no power for weeks

    Read More
    • Replies: @William Badwhite
    Whiskey, we really need to get you laid. By a decent white woman.

    Before I met Mrs. Badwhite (in my early 30's), I was rather, uhh, prolific. More than I like to admit actually. I also ran with a crowd in which several of the other guys were even more, uhh, prolific. I say this not to brag, but to establish the fact that I have forgotten more about middle and upper middle class white women than you will ever know.

    I have never in my life raised a hand to a woman. As far as I know, none of my friends have either. Women do not like violence, whether directed at them or otherwise.

    In college parties or bars frequented by people in their 20's, the quickest way to clear out all the women is for two meatheads to start fighting.

    If you want them to like you be some subset of: funny, nice but not desperate, socially outgoing, handsome helps but is not required though you shouldn't be a total eye-sore, well-groomed and well-dressed but not foppish, and generally positive.

    It also helps to be with other women, whether as friends or as a date. Some women just want what other women have, be it a handbag or a man. For other women, it means some woman has done her research and found you palatable.

    Maybe you're referring to black gals or white trash, but normal white girls are not remotely impressed by violence. You should post on topics of which you have knowledge. Women is not one of those topics.
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  269. @Anon
    The reason 4 wives is the ideal is the following according to the ancient wisdom of China

    1 Wife
    It’s just too much work for one woman to run the household, bear and raise the kids work in the family business and be a wife too . Doesn’t matter if the family is royalty or migrant laborers, it’s just too much for in woman.

    2Wives
    The 2 wives will gang up against the husband and he’ll never get any peace and quiet

    3 Wives

    2 of the wives will gang up against one wife. The husband will have to mediate and never get any peace and quiet

    4 Wives
    4 is the ideal number The wives will divide themselves into 2 against 2 pairs and squabble and fight amongst themselves and the husband will have peace and quiet.

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  270. @Intelligent Dasein
    Yes, I agree. The term "incel" is meaningless.

    In order to technically qualify as an incel, you would have to be fully committed to having sex, making every reasonable attempt to do so, and yet striking out time after time, every time. This would be an exceedingly rare creature indeed. In a society this large, with so many women about, virtually any man can find some woman to have sex with if he keeps applying himself.

    I think the real issue here is men who are conditionally celibate. Their thought process runs something like....

    "Sure, I would like to be having more sex, but I would also like to end up with a solid relationship, a good companion, and a family out of the deal. But most women today come with way too much baggage, and I just don't want that kind of drama in my life. The hot girls attract too much attention from the wrong kind of guys; I could never be confident of their loyalty, and they would probably be lazy and high-maintenance anyway. And even the not-so-hot girls are possessed of far too much attitude these days. If I could meet a good girl who liked me and respected me, then things would be different. But where do you find such women? They seem to have disappeared. I don't want to chase around some THOT just so I can say I say I have girlfriend. The bottom line is, if a girl isn't going to be good to me, then I don't really need her. I know as a man I'm supposed to act as if one's sexual score is everything, but really it isn't. There are other things in life more important than having non-reproductive, non-relationship sex with crazy women. I don't have the energy or the desire to pursue it any longer, but in order to avoid the censure of a sexually obsessed society, I 'm going to have to drop out of the social scene altogether. It's sad and painful, but I have no choice under the circumstances."
     
    The celibacy of such a man may not be desired, but it is entirely "voluntary" in the Aristotelian sense. Now the real question is, why do people like execrable Roissy and his ilk reserve their harshest invective for men taking this entirely reasonable (albeit unfortunate) position? Why ridicule them as betas, incels, losers, and so forth? They aren't any of these things. They're just men who've realized that the rewards are no longer worth the stakes. Why does Roissy bear in his heart a hatred for men who've had enough of his stupid "game" and aren't going to play anymore? It can only be because the spiritual purity of such a position completely outclasses his own venal and pathetic obsession.

    Roissy is not the answer to society's ills. He is part of the illness himself.

    Ok, now that I’ve finally got you guys flapping your lips, riddle me this….

    How come the incel terrorists, Sodini/Rodgers/Minassian, none of them were hideous guys at all.

    Why no super ugly incel terrorists who might actually be reasonable subjects of lookism?

    And why does it take me to bring this up, Steve, aren’t you the genius at noticing things?

    J Ross, you are laughable.

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    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    I have made this point. Elliot Rodgers's roommate wasn't as good-looking, but he got dates.
    , @Almost Missouri
    Maybe "incel" is a red herring? Actually, they're just crazy.
    , @mobi

    How come the incel terrorists, Sodini/Rodgers/Minassian, none of them were hideous guys at all.
     
    Your point isn't clear (apparently, you're way too smart to be clear), but Minassian, at least, never spoke to anyone in high school, walked the hallways with hands tightly clasped in front of him, making 'meeow-ing' noises like a cat, and simulating biting random passersby, as though like a cat.

    How narrowly do you define 'hideous'?
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  271. Rosie says:
    @anon
    BTW, I’m not at all sure that explanation is true. I suspect more sinister motives

    Don't you always, when it comes to men?

    Don’t you always, when it comes to men?

    Only when it comes to certain men who have a known tendency to push fracture points to distract, divide, and destroy.

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  272. Rosie says:
    @James N. Kennett

    Back to my point, when girls start developing in middle school, teachers do nothing while little boys ruthlessly harass and mock us for being “fat.”
     
    From what (admittedly little) I've seen, it's the slimmer girls who most enjoy inflicting this pain. One of their worst weapons is ostracism.

    The pro-bullying Right seems not to care what sort of damage this does to girls, and the rage that comes after the pain.
     
    Please take a reality check. There is no political party, nor any informal political grouping, that favors the bullying of middle-school girls.

    From what (admittedly little) I’ve seen, it’s the slimmer girls who most enjoy inflicting this pain. One of their worst weapons is ostracism.

    Nope. It was the boys. Girls do ostracize, but not for getting boobs when you’re 13.

    Please take a reality check. There is no political party, nor any informal political grouping, that favors the bullying of middle-school girls.

    They call it “fat-shaming”, and yes they are very much in favor of it, unless there is an age and/or size restriction on this that I am unaware of. Here is what they think of bullying little boys:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Real_Greg_Conte/status/954881666908147712

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    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    "Girls do ostracize, but not for getting boobs when you’re 13"

    Don't bet on that. When I was in middle school, some girls in my class were slut-shaming a girl in a lower grade they may not have even known just because she had already developed, and was taller than everybody else. She might have become a professional model later, but she ended up dropping out of school to have a baby. Did it prove she really was a slut, or was it a self-fulfilling prophecy because the boys were the only ones who would talk to her without open ridicule?

    There's even a section of a Judy Bloom book where a girl who developed early gets the slut rumors, and it isn't the boys who start them; it's the girls. I'm guessing that was inspired by some real-life incidents Bloom witnessed, because she has the tween mindset down.
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  273. Rosie says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    The manipulative, object-oriented personality that leads men into tech also explains their genuinely dark personalities. That’s my theory anyway. I’m certainly open to correction.
     
    You got it, Rosie - one correction coming right up.

    Why would you think men who are into ideas and objects rather than people have dark personalities? They just don't get excited about dealing with other people, but are very interested in how things work. There's nothing at all wrong with that.

    At the same time, the urge for sex and the less urgent but still big longing for romance is still there. Because lots of guys don't care that much about the "dealing with people" part, they end up with a big shyness towards girls. They don't really have this with guys and women they don't long for (in "that way") because they just don't care. "Talk with me, don't talk with me - I don't give a rat's ass.". I've been there.

    Because women are almost always not like this, they, including you, may have some idea there is something wrong with these guys. Nope, there's not. You don't understand that lots of people don't need other people. I've never understood the big damn deal about solitary confinement ... especially if they have wireless.

    This is an interesting post that gets to the heart of the matter. Allow me to respond.

    Why would you think men who are into ideas and objects rather than people have dark personalities? They just don’t get excited about dealing with other people, but are very interested in how things work. There’s nothing at all wrong with that.

    I quite agree with you that being interested in how things work is perfectly appropriate and salutary for society. That is not the reason I think they have dark personalities. I think that because the distinction between people and things gets blurry for them, and they treat the former as if they were the latter.

    At the same time, the urge for sex and the less urgent but still big longing for romance is still there…Because women are almost always not like this, they, including you, may have some idea there is something wrong with these guys. Nope, there’s not. You don’t understand that lots of people don’t need other people. I’ve never understood the big damn deal about solitary confinement … especially if they have wireless.

    Here we have a very fundamental disagreement about the good. In my view, which I think is fairly typical of women, there is no such thing as a normal, healthy individual who doesn’t need other people except for sex. We can tell, in fact, that the only reason such individuals are talking to us is precisely to get sex.

    We look at such men and we see an erect penis walking on two legs, and they strike us as both ridiculous and repulsive. We are not interested in being their comfort women, so they can relieve themselves and get back to their important concerns.

    Now, you also mentioned romance. To any extent that is the goal, it would seem to me that the person in question is not wholly object-oriented. And if romance is the goal, why the shyness and nerves. Romance starts with getting to know each other, not asking what utility a person has for you. Why would a person be shy about getting to know someone? Fear of rejection, i.e. being denied the thing wanted, is already an indication that a man has gotten ahead of himself, and betrayed his essentially instrumental view of the, ahem, object of his interest. He is trying to make a sale. What do you do when telemarketers call your house?

    I suppose you’re too young to remember Beavis and Butthead. Granted, they were dumb, but no matter. Women do not like sexual obsession/desperation.

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    • Replies: @Rosie
    For old times' sake.

    https://youtu.be/EbxlqGXQeEM
    , @Tyrion 2

    Now, you also mentioned romance. To any extent that is the goal, it would seem to me that the person in question is not wholly object-oriented. And if romance is the goal, why the shyness and nerves. Romance starts with getting to know each other, not asking what utility a person has for you. Why would a person be shy about getting to know someone? Fear of rejection, i.e. being denied the thing wanted, is already an indication that a man has gotten ahead of himself, and betrayed his essentially instrumental view of the, ahem, object of his interest. He is trying to make a sale. What do you do when telemarketers call your house
     
    Sort of. There are considerations though.

    One, many people are socially anxious. Any interaction with a new person is difficult.

    Two, the man has already instrumentalised himself as an available object for her. The decision is therefore hers as to whether she thinks his value is enough or not. His sense of self-worth is temporarily in her hands.

    I understand how the above can come across as creepy, desperate, pathetic or even salesy but it derives from the fact that most men price their own participation in sex cheaply. The woman need not 'pay' much at all.

    This contrast can even be seen in the sexual act. For men, culmination is like sneezing followed by a little death. For women, it seems to be a primordial, earth-shaking all-body transformation. No wonder men price their participation so low.

    Still, if you really need to sneeze, you really need to sneeze.

    Of course, none of this is pleasant and certainly not romance but it is reality. My advice to sensible women who want to navigate this as best they can is threefold.

    1. You need to understand where the guy is coming from. This means understanding the above.

    2. You need to use this understanding to compassionately lay down boundaries. You can accept that he wants to err but you can firmly and clearly and kindly tell him that this is not an option.

    3. You need to not only recognise and act on your superiority in some areas, as in points 1 and 2, but also have the humility to remember that he will have superiority to you in others; meaning that you can still respect him and desire to get to know him.
    , @Achmed E. Newman
    I understand your point, but I don't agree that there's anything wrong with that (not needing other people except for girls for sex and romance). Nature says women should trade their ability to please a man and make his babies in return for protection and support. OK, you may not feel like it should just be a simple deal like this. At a young age nothing of this sort is obvious, but we tend to want do what Nature has programmed us to do anyway.

    The problem nowadays is feminism has so screwed up the way things work between the sexes. that things get confusing and don't get sorted out until it's very late - this is even worse for the woman, it turns out. We all should all try to remember that IT'S NOT NICE TO FOOL MOTHER NATURE!

    (This got too long.. I will continue in another comment in a sec...)
    , @Achmed E. Newman
    (Continued from previous comment.)

    Yes, women don't like guys to be too obvious about what they want unless they are smooth-talking overconfident guys. That's a problem for many guys. They are more honest with themselves, and so can't do this PUA thing, even if they do see how it works. They don't know how to even get started with women.

    Why would a person be shy about getting to know someone?
     
    Because he doesn't have confidence in the answer, and many guys are exactly NOT like salesmen, and just don't understand that it's not so big a deal to be turned down. Why do they think it IS a big deal? Keep in mind the guy may be in LOVE, not (JUST) LUST.

    Here's the big thing they have not learned. Women LIE. They lie a lot. "No" does NOT mean "No, forever", but inexperienced guys have never been taught this or have not believed it. A girl might say something like "never would I ever date you", and this guy will feel a big blow, because that's it. Little does he know, that if he is persistent, meaning understanding that women lie, and catches you on a different stretch from your period, you may have. different answer. To him, being persistent is a waste of time, because you already said one thing. This lesson should be taught to men, just as the use of their bodies per Mother Nature should be taught to women. Feminism, however, has taught absolutely 180-degree off wrong information to both young men and women.
    , @Rosamond Vincy

    Now, you also mentioned romance. To any extent that is the goal, it would seem to me that the person in question is not wholly object-oriented. And if romance is the goal, why the shyness and nerves. Romance starts with getting to know each other, not asking what utility a person has for you. Why would a person be shy about getting to know someone? Fear of rejection, i.e. being denied the thing wanted, is already an indication that a man has gotten ahead of himself, and betrayed his essentially instrumental view of the, ahem, object of his interest
     
    .

    Seriously? I was horribly shy for a while because after an ugly duckling history--scrawny and buck-toothed in childhood, pudgy and brace-faced in adolescence--when things finally evened out and guys were interested, I was afraid they'd see I was still a dweeb at heart and not like me anymore. It took me a while before I could identify:
    1) the ones who possibly wanted a relationship if we clicked;
    2) the ones who just wanted sex because they thought I was physically attractive;
    3) the ones who just wanted sex so other guys would be impressed and envy them.

    It is category 3, not 2, that caused the worst problems. 2 will just go hit on somebody else if you're not interested, but 3 is outraged. In addition, 2 couldn't care less what his friends think if he likes what he sees, or else his friends are geeks and gamers whose dream girl is a geek in a bimbo body, but 3 wouldn't be caught dead with a geek in a bimbo body, because his own status is too fragile.
    , @HogHappenin
    You know what Rosie, the verdict has been out. Women's sexual currency is generally quite a lot more valuable and "heavy" than that for a man in a regular society. Now that I've read quite a few of your posts here, can conclude that you aren't some "brainwashed" feminist and that you generally do agree to that don't you?

    With that out of the way, don't you think that it would be doubly more difficult for an "incel" who is more than likely to be a lot *MORE* introverted that your regular Joe out there? And no I'm *NOT* counting the MGTOW crowd here. At least back in the day, there was some kind of an unspoken agreement that the woman would help keep the man's bed warm and care for him in sickness not to forget bear his children in return for a "guarantee" of protection and food and hopefully the care provided by children in her old age. Now that the family structure itself has been almost but destroyed in the west, the next obvious target is the very nature of the sexes and their "natural" roles.

    And what do you think of the current state of affairs wherein the message that is being sent to our little girls that it A-OK to accentuate your "assets - up front and around back" with such terrible role models as J-LO and the kardashian sisters! Combine that with the fact that men are a LOT more visually stimulated than women and we have a recipe for a total disaster right here. Thus the sexual anarchy we see being played out. The sexual dysfunction, the soaring hatred that quite a few men have developed of women and the general malaise and sexual pathology that we find ourselves in. Where do you think this will lead to? And this is the kind of "culture" we sih to shove down the throats of "brutal savages" in the east even if we have to bomb the crap outta them. What a pathetic state of affairs and you think it is not be deliberate design?
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  274. @ThreeCranes
    "maybe Ellen really is implying that the tech company should hire some prostitutes"

    Maybe Ellen should offer herself up on the altar of inclusion. After all, if that woman were truly interested in being a social worker, then she would voluntarily give herself whole heartedly to any guy out there who isn't getting or can't get laid. Doing that would do more good and relieve more suffering than all the diversity and inclusion crap she's ever written or lectured about.

    How bout it Ellen?

    Time to put out or shut up.

    Maybe she’s not very good at it herself.

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  275. Rosie says:
    @Rosie
    This is an interesting post that gets to the heart of the matter. Allow me to respond.

    Why would you think men who are into ideas and objects rather than people have dark personalities? They just don’t get excited about dealing with other people, but are very interested in how things work. There’s nothing at all wrong with that.
     
    I quite agree with you that being interested in how things work is perfectly appropriate and salutary for society. That is not the reason I think they have dark personalities. I think that because the distinction between people and things gets blurry for them, and they treat the former as if they were the latter.

    At the same time, the urge for sex and the less urgent but still big longing for romance is still there...Because women are almost always not like this, they, including you, may have some idea there is something wrong with these guys. Nope, there’s not. You don’t understand that lots of people don’t need other people. I’ve never understood the big damn deal about solitary confinement … especially if they have wireless.
     
    Here we have a very fundamental disagreement about the good. In my view, which I think is fairly typical of women, there is no such thing as a normal, healthy individual who doesn't need other people except for sex. We can tell, in fact, that the only reason such individuals are talking to us is precisely to get sex.

    We look at such men and we see an erect penis walking on two legs, and they strike us as both ridiculous and repulsive. We are not interested in being their comfort women, so they can relieve themselves and get back to their important concerns.

    Now, you also mentioned romance. To any extent that is the goal, it would seem to me that the person in question is not wholly object-oriented. And if romance is the goal, why the shyness and nerves. Romance starts with getting to know each other, not asking what utility a person has for you. Why would a person be shy about getting to know someone? Fear of rejection, i.e. being denied the thing wanted, is already an indication that a man has gotten ahead of himself, and betrayed his essentially instrumental view of the, ahem, object of his interest. He is trying to make a sale. What do you do when telemarketers call your house?

    I suppose you're too young to remember Beavis and Butthead. Granted, they were dumb, but no matter. Women do not like sexual obsession/desperation.

    For old times’ sake.

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    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    Oh, yeah, I was a big fan of this cartoon. I'd never seen this one with the trip to Washington, FS, and that last scene. Man, Mike Judge really laid that one out honestly.

    Yes, true, women don't like desperation, or at least if it's obvious. Shy geeks have a lot more going for them, of course, than Beavis and Butthead. However, if women would control their instincts a bit and not lie to these guys, it would help. Simply saying, "you'd have a better chance of dating me if you at least ________, ______, and _________", could help immensely, as these type of guys tend to take everything as being sincere, and would try to do whatever it takes. However, they think a woman is as good as her word, when their Daddies should have taught them that it doesn't work like that at all.
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  276. @njguy73

    One thing I’d recommend to STEM type geeks is to check out the more female heavy doctoral departments-especially things like biology or chemical engineering, but also linguistics, history, anything that takes serious intellectual effort-where they can find more women who share, among other things, their scientific curiosity. If they are fellow introverts, they share romantic tastes, if they are an extrovert, they might end up creating a weird “let’s improve each other” exotic symmetry.
     
    STEM type geeks do that. I know several married couples like that.

    Incels don't do that. Incels consider checking out women like that as the equivalent of failure.

    There seems to be some confusion between "geek" and "incel." A geek would be happy to be in a comfortable relationship with a woman who shares his values. An incel sees women as a status symbol that he's entitled to. It's not a matter of having "Game" or the right look. It's a matter of viewing humans as autonomous beings or as items to posses.

    The second is Rodgers in a nutshell. He didn’t want to join the geek country club, even if the swimming pools were nicer. He wanted the Kewl Kids Klub, and if ya can’t join ‘em, beat ‘em.

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  277. @Forbes
    It's a little over the top these days--but 5-10 years ago, not so much. It's a conversation starter. Young women can't help themselves, their curiosity gets the better of them. If it's "outrageous," they have to go and find out "what's the deal?" It takes balls and confidence to pull it off--and that's what 20-something women look for.

    If it’s “outrageous,” they have to go and find out “what’s the deal?” It takes balls and confidence to pull it off–and that’s what 20-something women look for.

    A very attractive lady-friend of my wasted youth confided after we’d been dating awhile that she “had to” come talk to the guy wearing the “big feather earring” at a party (think of the kind of stuff Steve Vai or the guys in Kiss may have worn in the eighties…). Many a person had ridiculed me for the earring, and I wore it not to attract women but because I didn’t care a bit what anyone thought of me or my jewely…which attitude, of course, will often attract ladies incidentally.

    He looks like a pimp, so who would go for that besides the kind of females who work for pimps?

    Attracting the kinds of ladies in question is often a feature, not a bug, for this type of dude.

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    • Replies: @Rosie

    because I didn’t care a bit what anyone thought of me or my jewely…which attitude, of course, will often attract ladies incidentally.
     
    This is correct, as I noted on another thread. Defiance of authority holds a certain appeal. I suspect it has to do with a trickster appeal, a certain resourcefulness in the struggle for survival.
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  278. Rosie says:
    @anon
    Over the long term, very effective. Truth is a powerful ally.

    If that was true, our gracious host would be a millionaire and Bill Kristol would be homeless.

    What’s the matter? You can dish it out, but you can’t take it? I thought we weren’t politically correct around here?

    Of course I can. But you said you were trying to convince the MGTOWs, not me.

    I’m going to take a wild guess and say that if someone were to engage in a little noticing of patterns regarding domestic violence, humorless perpetrators would be “overrepresented.”

    That is a wild guess. Lots of black guys have a pretty good sense of humor. Those women they beat up were attracted to them for some reason, weren't they?

    That doesn’t change the fact that, over time, an attraction to funny men may have had an adaptive advantage for women.

    It may, or it may just be something you made up.

    Being less likely to be killed by their mate, they left more surviving offspring, etc.

    If that was all there was to it, women would be more attracted to men with low testosterone, since they're less likely to kill anyone.

    If that was true, our gracious host would be a millionaire and Bill Kristol would be homeless.

    Your lack of faith disturbs me. Are you suggesting that his efforts are in vain?

    That is a wild guess. Lots of black guys have a pretty good sense of humor. Those women they beat up were attracted to them for some reason, weren’t they?

    Some black guys are funny.
    Some black guys beat up women.
    Therefore, some funny black guys beat up women.

    Don’t try to bullshit me. It won’t work.

    It may, or it may just be something you made up.

    Right, we call that a hypothesis. Unlike the MGTOW, I am honest enough to admit that my hypotheses are just that, pure speculation.

    If that was all there was to it, women would be more attracted to men with low testosterone, since they’re less likely to kill anyone.

    True, but then they would also be useless as protectors wouldn’t they?

    Thanks for playing.

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    • Replies: @mobi

    Women like funny guys even though they are not famous comedians. I suspect this is an evolved preference for men who are less likely to kill them or their children. Humor is a coping mechanism.

     

    This is very unlikely. If you're actually interested in educating yourself, try to understand why it's unlikely.

    And if you're really interested in educating yourself, try to understand why you prefer this mis-interpretation to the much more likely one.


    If that was all there was to it, women would be more attracted to men with low testosterone, since they’re less likely to kill anyone.

    True, but then they would also be useless as protectors wouldn’t they?

    Thanks for playing.
     

    Humorousness in men is inversely correlated with relationship stability and longevity, and positively correlated with initial attractiveness to females.

    Probably similar to most of the other things that attract females to males, which begins to hint at the true nature of female attraction to humor in males.

    Thanks for playing.

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  279. gunner29 says:

    I did a control F search on rosie, 122 just in this thread. Jack D is gonna be pissed…How long before she/he/or it, burns out?

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    • Replies: @Rosie
    isteve being a sausagefest, I don't have a braintrust to tagteam with like the MGTARDS.

    Instead of counting my posts, why don't you read and respond to them?
    , @Almost Missouri
    I hold Ellen Pao in the lowest contempt, but with a half-baked 20-word tweet she has generated an astonishing amount of discussion, even on these relatively erudite premises.

    Admittedly, Rosie's been turbocharging the results here.
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  280. Tyrion 2 says:
    @njguy73

    I assume most prostitutes would find that sweet.
     
    Yeah, 'cause she's got a heart of gold (eyeroll)

    Even people with a heart of soot can find things sweet.

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  281. Pericles says:
    @njguy73

    One thing I’d recommend to STEM type geeks is to check out the more female heavy doctoral departments-especially things like biology or chemical engineering, but also linguistics, history, anything that takes serious intellectual effort-where they can find more women who share, among other things, their scientific curiosity. If they are fellow introverts, they share romantic tastes, if they are an extrovert, they might end up creating a weird “let’s improve each other” exotic symmetry.
     
    STEM type geeks do that. I know several married couples like that.

    Incels don't do that. Incels consider checking out women like that as the equivalent of failure.

    There seems to be some confusion between "geek" and "incel." A geek would be happy to be in a comfortable relationship with a woman who shares his values. An incel sees women as a status symbol that he's entitled to. It's not a matter of having "Game" or the right look. It's a matter of viewing humans as autonomous beings or as items to posses.

    An incel sees women as a status symbol that he’s entitled to. It’s not a matter of having “Game” or the right look. It’s a matter of viewing humans as autonomous beings or as items to posses.

    So ‘incel’ is your word for feminist talking point ‘creep’ or ‘beta’?

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    • Replies: @njguy73

    So ‘incel’ is your word for feminist talking point ‘creep’ or ‘beta’?
     
    OK, first, you're sounding like that British lady Jordan Peterson destroyed. Second, they're not my feminist talking points. I have no feminist agenda. Again with the words in the mouth. Third, you're half right.

    "Incel" does not mean "beta." There are "beta" males who do no feel or act entitled to a certain type of lover. They do not call themselves "incels." They simply see themselves as guys trying to find someone they can relate to, come what may.

    Those who call themselves "incels" do so because they have come to the conclusion that they are being denied sexual activity which is rightfully theirs. And yes, that is creepy.
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  282. Pericles says:
    @Rosie

    OK, well. That’s three qualities. And I do not believe, nor will I ever believe, that intellect is even in the top ten.
     
    Here you have admitted that you are impervious to reason.

    Let me help you with this. Read Luke 10:38-42 and get back to me.

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+10%3A38-42&version=NIV

    Those guys were in the top ten percent of intellect in the university, so probably in the top one percent of the population at large. So why weren’t women throwing themselves at them?
     
    That's not the kind of intelligence women find attractive. Nor do they find it unattractive. They are indifferent.

    I imagine that you probably just don’t actually have any experience being around guys like that, so I wouldn’t expect you to know about it up close, though.
     
    Yes. I do, actually. I am married to a very intelligent man. His whole family is highly intelligent, and the guys in STEM are disagreeable, opinionated, and controlling. I literally once had one comment on the inefficiency of my method of folding my husbands polo shirts. I'm not kidding. It gets to the point where you can't stand being around them, because you know you're under the microscope.

    Now, perhaps my low opinion of them is merely the result of natural in-law tension. I fully acknowledge that possibility, but I certainly do not lack experience with them.

    I literally once had one comment on the inefficiency of my method of folding my husbands polo shirts. I’m not kidding.

    Lol, the worm should have known better than to mansplain woman’s work … on the other hand, maybe you could have learned something.

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    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    I don't get the whole premise here. Why are you folding anything at all? There's the worn pile and the wear pile ... it's not rocket surgery.