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Do American Colleges Want Chinese to Cheat on the SAT?
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Readers of Education Realist won’t be surprised, but Reuters has a big report on SAT cheating by Tiger Mothers and their cubs.

As SAT was hit by security breaches, College Board went ahead with tests that had leaked

By Renee Dudley, Steve Stecklow, Alexandra Harney and Irene Jay Liu

Filed March 28, 2016, 5:54 p.m. GMT

Internal documents show that the U.S. college entrance exam has been compromised in Asia far more often than acknowledged. And the newly redesigned SAT retains a key vulnerability that the test-prep industry has exploited for years.

… Ding’s advance look at material from the test he took was no fluke. His cram school is part of a vibrant Asian industry that systematically exploits security shortcomings in the SAT. Chief among them is a vulnerability created by the owner of the exam: the routine practice of reusing material from tests that already have been given.

The College Board, the not-for-profit organization that owns the SAT, has acknowledged widespread problems with test security in Asia in recent years. Since October 2014, the New York-based organization has delayed issuing scores in Asia six times and canceled an exam sitting in two locations there – steps the College Board takes when it has evidence that test material has been exposed to the public.

But the breakdown in security is more pervasive than the College Board has publicly disclosed, Reuters has found. In addition to the security-related incidents the College Board has announced, the news agency identified eight occasions since late 2013 in which test material was circulating online before the SAT was administered overseas.

The College Board gives SATs in America, and then gives the exact same tests later in East Asia. It’s almost as if the American higher education system is so addicted to full tuition-paying East Asian students that it wants this corrupt system to continue of having the SAT validate as worthy of admission rich Asian kids who don’t really speak English.

 
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  1. It’s all about the paper.

  2. Leftist conservative [AKA "Make Unz.com Great Again"] says: • Website

    why, it’s almost as if large american institutions evolve and control their environment so as to best serve the interests of those who control those institutions….now where have I heard that before?

    • Replies: @Romanian
    I liked Robert Conquest’s Third Law of Politics:

    The simplest way to explain the behavior of any bureaucratic organization is to assume that it is controlled by a cabal of its enemies.
     
    Also Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy:

    In any bureaucratic organization there will be two kinds of people:
    First, there will be those who are devoted to the goals of the organization. Examples are dedicated classroom teachers in an educational bureaucracy, many of the engineers and launch technicians and scientists at NASA, even some agricultural scientists and advisors in the former Soviet Union collective farming administration.
    Secondly, there will be those dedicated to the organization itself. Examples are many of the administrators in the education system, many professors of education, many teachers union officials, much of the NASA headquarters staff, etc.
    The Iron Law states that in every case the second group will gain and keep control of the organization. It will write the rules, and control promotions within the organization.
     
  3. At my regional university the answer is, “Yep!”

    Also, don’t spend any money helping internationals understand writing, or even how to get around this small town. Take that wealthy Chinese money and mark up your ‘diversity’ stats.

    Done and done.

    • Replies: @jimmyriddle
    Chinese don't count for diversity purposes.
  4. Eliminate any advantage from having access to an old test:

    Create a huge library of tens of thousands of test questions.

    This library of questions is freely available to all via the internet.

    Immediately before the test begins, a computer creates a specific test by randomly selecting 50 questions from the huge library of questions.

    The test-takers have access to all the possible questions, but never know in advance exactly which questions will be on the test.

    The huge library of test questions can be created by volunteers through an online, peer-reviewed process, similar to the way free, open-source software is created.

    • Replies: @Diversity Heretic
    I think that the French written exam to get a hunting license relies on precisely this system. There are over 700 questions available on-line, but you don't know which ones you'll get on your exam. There is one potential drawback in that one might fail all the gun safety questions but know lots about when deer shed their antlers and still be out there on opening day.
    , @Jack D
    It's not that easy to come up with a good SAT question. They pre-test their questions extensively. A good SAT question not only has a correct answer but one or more wrong answers that are especially attractive to stupid people, which is called the "distractor". Idiots are attracted to the distractor like flies to honey. This is how they separate the men from the boys. Each version of the SAT is statistically modeled and validated to be of the same difficulty as every other SAT so that a 500 on one test is the same as a 500 on any other test given both that year and in the past and future (except when they "renorm" every few decades). It's not just a random bunch of questions - there is a whole science to the thing.

    If you are ever in the market for an SAT prep book for your offspring or otherwise, I recommend you buy only the "Real SAT" books put out by the College Board, which consist of past versions of actual SATs (this is difficult right now because they are changing the format and there are no old SATs to release). If you buy a book of fake SAT questions put together by Barrons or Princeton Review or whomever, the quality of the questions is clearly not as good. Not even close. Crafting a proper SAT question is a lot more difficult than it looks.

  5. @Pittsburgh Thatcherite
    Eliminate any advantage from having access to an old test:

    Create a huge library of tens of thousands of test questions.

    This library of questions is freely available to all via the internet.

    Immediately before the test begins, a computer creates a specific test by randomly selecting 50 questions from the huge library of questions.

    The test-takers have access to all the possible questions, but never know in advance exactly which questions will be on the test.

    The huge library of test questions can be created by volunteers through an online, peer-reviewed process, similar to the way free, open-source software is created.

    I think that the French written exam to get a hunting license relies on precisely this system. There are over 700 questions available on-line, but you don’t know which ones you’ll get on your exam. There is one potential drawback in that one might fail all the gun safety questions but know lots about when deer shed their antlers and still be out there on opening day.

  6. I wonder why it is that people are so willing to cast aspersions on the motivations of corporations (which are at least honest about their money grubbing) and give universities a pass while they load up students with debt for degrees of dubious value, among other ethically challenging practices. These are only anecdotes, but…

    When I graduated from college many moons ago, a roommate applied to Harvard for graduate school. He was rejected. A quick call to mom and dad (both Harvard grads) got him in.

    In the public school my kids attend (in central NJ) it is common knowledge that kids of Princeton professors can get accepted there with lower standards than kids with no connections.

    If schools like Harvard and Princeton, that have a strong economic interest in maintaining their brand, are willing to do this, how tempting will it be for state universities to accept more engage in more questionable admission practices?

    How long before the education bubble collapses?

    • Agree: Anonym
    • Replies: @Clyde

    How long before the education bubble collapses?
     
    One thing for sure is that Chinese/Asian/other foreign students paying full freight are keeping it going longer than it would have. Also factor in Democrat office holders who universally advocate "mo' education" as the solution for every problem they create via open borders and "free trade" policies. Which amazingly enough translates into a full employment program (courtesy of taxpayers) for that key Democrat constituency known as "educators".
    , @TomSchmidt
    The education bubble is collapsing for American college students. The shell-shocked seniors who never questioned taking on all that debt are being replaced more and more by foreigners. This will not end well.

    Done in 10 years, max.
    , @Former Darfur
    How long before the education bubble collapses?

    Not soon enough.
  7. I think the coast guard captain exams use a public bank of questions.

  8. In the PISA scores Vietnam punches above their weight and performed better than expected.

    • Replies: @Diversity Heretic
    Is there a selection bias here? Do they discourage the remaining Hmong from taking the tests?
  9. As Donald Trump would say, Chiiiiiyeeenaaaah is eating our lunch. We don’t win anymore, we don’t make anything anymore, we are not number 1 at anything anymore. If you look at their airports in Shanghai and Beijing they are way more beautiful than our airports. I am gonna make America great again. We are going to bring back factory jobs from Chiiiiyeeeenaaah.

  10. There is a David Bowie song called Cha Cha Changes.

    Someone should make a parody song called Chi Chi China with the exact same beat and have a fake Donald Trump. Weird Al Yankovic should do it.

  11. @Jefferson
    In the PISA scores Vietnam punches above their weight and performed better than expected.

    Is there a selection bias here? Do they discourage the remaining Hmong from taking the tests?

    • Replies: @jimmyriddle
    I believe PISA isn't great at testing rural students anywhere.
  12. People who cheat show that they have lots of attractive qualities: the will to succeed, initiative, courage, intelligence.

    I’ve always admired cheaters in a strange way. Pretty much any successful does it.

    • Replies: @Clyde

    People who cheat show that they have lots of attractive qualities: the will to succeed, initiative, courage, intelligence. I’ve always admired cheaters in a strange way. Pretty much any successful does it.
     
    Hopefully all doctors who operate on you are cheaters. Dumbass!
    , @Mark2
    Indeed, which is why I lack much respect for the "successful" by default.
    , @Santoculto
    Until they cheat you...
    , @bomag
    Let's just take your irony all the way; plug in and enjoy all criminal activity:

    People who embezzle show that they have lots of attractive qualities: the will to succeed, initiative, courage, intelligence. ..I’ve always admired embezzlers in a strange way. Pretty much any successful does it.

    People who rape children show that they have lots of attractive qualities: the will to succeed, initiative, courage, intelligence...I’ve always admired child rapers in a strange way. Pretty much any successful does it.

    Etc.
    , @RonaldB
    In the case of the Asian students, it is the father who initiates the cheating. The student himself might have nothing to do with it, except to play along...exactly the type of person you don't want with a job-attracting degree.

    Also, one of the comments points out that you don't want cheaters as doctors, engineers, lawyers, judges, police or cooks. You're pretty much limited to managers, college administrators, and politicians if you expect benefits from the type of person who benefits the organization by cheating.
  13. @Anonymous
    People who cheat show that they have lots of attractive qualities: the will to succeed, initiative, courage, intelligence.

    I've always admired cheaters in a strange way. Pretty much any successful does it.

    People who cheat show that they have lots of attractive qualities: the will to succeed, initiative, courage, intelligence. I’ve always admired cheaters in a strange way. Pretty much any successful does it.

    Hopefully all doctors who operate on you are cheaters. Dumbass!

  14. @Anonymous
    People who cheat show that they have lots of attractive qualities: the will to succeed, initiative, courage, intelligence.

    I've always admired cheaters in a strange way. Pretty much any successful does it.

    Indeed, which is why I lack much respect for the “successful” by default.

    • Replies: @Mike1
    It's always interesting to get a glimpse of the mental tricks the lazy use to maintain self esteem.
    , @Bleuteaux
    Brilliant point. For decades we heard right wing talking points about jealousy and envy. But in today's rent-seeking culture, there are more people making a living off of scams than not. You're naive if you think the average guy with wealth earned it the old fashioned way. Cf. The entire finance industry.
  15. @NJ Transit Commuter
    I wonder why it is that people are so willing to cast aspersions on the motivations of corporations (which are at least honest about their money grubbing) and give universities a pass while they load up students with debt for degrees of dubious value, among other ethically challenging practices. These are only anecdotes, but...

    When I graduated from college many moons ago, a roommate applied to Harvard for graduate school. He was rejected. A quick call to mom and dad (both Harvard grads) got him in.

    In the public school my kids attend (in central NJ) it is common knowledge that kids of Princeton professors can get accepted there with lower standards than kids with no connections.

    If schools like Harvard and Princeton, that have a strong economic interest in maintaining their brand, are willing to do this, how tempting will it be for state universities to accept more engage in more questionable admission practices?

    How long before the education bubble collapses?

    How long before the education bubble collapses?

    One thing for sure is that Chinese/Asian/other foreign students paying full freight are keeping it going longer than it would have. Also factor in Democrat office holders who universally advocate “mo’ education” as the solution for every problem they create via open borders and “free trade” policies. Which amazingly enough translates into a full employment program (courtesy of taxpayers) for that key Democrat constituency known as “educators”.

    • Replies: @unpc downunder
    Are you sure it's the fault of the Democrats as opposed to modern politicians in general? In Britain, Australia and New Zealand, the centre right is even worse on education than the centre left. The centre right has cut back on funding for apprenticeships and technical schools and pushed for more students to attend universities. The Neo-con Labour PM Tony Blair was obsessed with education and it's supposed power to transform the economy.

    Any politician who believes in the blank slate theory of human nature and neoliberal economic principles will inevitably be a big supporter of the education industrial establishment.

    To oppose the EIE, you need to accept the following:

    -people vary in terms of intelligence, talent and many other important variables

    -education doesn't necessarily make people smarter, wiser or more employable

    -people often make irrational choices and are often ignorant of labour market realities

    -long-term economic development often depends on making short-term sacrifices for long-term gains (like giving maths teachers pay rises, even if it means cutting back on a new gym)

  16. @Anonymous
    People who cheat show that they have lots of attractive qualities: the will to succeed, initiative, courage, intelligence.

    I've always admired cheaters in a strange way. Pretty much any successful does it.

    Until they cheat you…

  17. Thanks for the nod, Steve. The whole thing is very depressing and yes, I think the CB is enabling public and private university push for more money.

    I’m writing a response (in the form of a letter) to the really excellent articles; I don’t think they could have done more in an opening sequence. Hopefully, others will follow up.

    Here are my “big three” pieces on the SAT/PSAT and Asian cheating:

    The SAT is Corrupt. No one wants to know. If you want to know specifically what the College Confidential braindumping looks like, I got screenprints.

    SAT’s Competitive Advantage–talks about the huge Asian preference for SAT vs. ACT, and why.

    Braindumping the PSAT: here’s when I realized that the SAT was going to still enable cheating. And reporters–who found the whole process of discussing the answers clever and cute–were infuriating.

  18. Chinese are generally very intelligent but their downfall is their poor english language skills, which means they can’t write intelligible essays, even though they understand the material.
    OTOH the female ones can sleep with their teachers or their fellow students in exchange for getting the essays done for them. This actually happens.

  19. As someone who’s seen the pay and benefits of “not-for-profit” executives, I can tell you that these people are as worried about the bottom line as any corporate officer.

  20. @NJ Transit Commuter
    I wonder why it is that people are so willing to cast aspersions on the motivations of corporations (which are at least honest about their money grubbing) and give universities a pass while they load up students with debt for degrees of dubious value, among other ethically challenging practices. These are only anecdotes, but...

    When I graduated from college many moons ago, a roommate applied to Harvard for graduate school. He was rejected. A quick call to mom and dad (both Harvard grads) got him in.

    In the public school my kids attend (in central NJ) it is common knowledge that kids of Princeton professors can get accepted there with lower standards than kids with no connections.

    If schools like Harvard and Princeton, that have a strong economic interest in maintaining their brand, are willing to do this, how tempting will it be for state universities to accept more engage in more questionable admission practices?

    How long before the education bubble collapses?

    The education bubble is collapsing for American college students. The shell-shocked seniors who never questioned taking on all that debt are being replaced more and more by foreigners. This will not end well.

    Done in 10 years, max.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    The education bubble is collapsing for American college students. The shell-shocked seniors who never questioned taking on all that debt are being replaced more and more by foreigners. This will not end well.

    Done in 10 years, max.
     
    Oh no, what's going to happen to all those bright savvy young people who've trained for the information economy and increased their intellectual capital while decreasing their capital capital??
  21. @Leftist conservative
    why, it's almost as if large american institutions evolve and control their environment so as to best serve the interests of those who control those institutions....now where have I heard that before?

    I liked Robert Conquest’s Third Law of Politics:

    The simplest way to explain the behavior of any bureaucratic organization is to assume that it is controlled by a cabal of its enemies.

    Also Pournelle’s Iron Law of Bureaucracy:

    In any bureaucratic organization there will be two kinds of people:
    First, there will be those who are devoted to the goals of the organization. Examples are dedicated classroom teachers in an educational bureaucracy, many of the engineers and launch technicians and scientists at NASA, even some agricultural scientists and advisors in the former Soviet Union collective farming administration.
    Secondly, there will be those dedicated to the organization itself. Examples are many of the administrators in the education system, many professors of education, many teachers union officials, much of the NASA headquarters staff, etc.
    The Iron Law states that in every case the second group will gain and keep control of the organization. It will write the rules, and control promotions within the organization.

  22. ‘Ding…already knew half the answers…’His score on that section? A perfect 800, he said.’

    Ding seems like a pretty poor example of the advantages of cheating. Knowing half the answers in advance wouldn’t get you anywhere close to an 800 unless you were amazing on the other half. Unless, of course, you knew the answers to the *tougher* half of the exam.

    For that matter, the College Board may well repeat questions from the easier half of the exam — the questions which are easily answered by the majority of test takers — without introducing serious measurement error in the higher scores. What really matters is whether they repeat the tougher questions. Maybe they do maybe they don’t but that would be worth investigating.

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    Ding seems like a pretty poor example of the advantages of cheating. Knowing half the answers in advance wouldn’t get you anywhere close to an 800 unless you were amazing on the other half.

    No but since the test is timed flying right through half the questions gives you twice the time to think about the answers as everybody else on the rest of the test. A lot of SAT questions aren't really all that difficult you just don't have the time to mull over the answers to all of them.
    , @midtown
    I'm not following you. 800 is only half the test; a perfect score on the whole test is 1600. So, to know half the answers seems like a truism that they would get a perfect 800 on that portion of the overall test.
  23. @Anonymous
    People who cheat show that they have lots of attractive qualities: the will to succeed, initiative, courage, intelligence.

    I've always admired cheaters in a strange way. Pretty much any successful does it.

    Let’s just take your irony all the way; plug in and enjoy all criminal activity:

    People who embezzle show that they have lots of attractive qualities: the will to succeed, initiative, courage, intelligence. ..I’ve always admired embezzlers in a strange way. Pretty much any successful does it.

    People who rape children show that they have lots of attractive qualities: the will to succeed, initiative, courage, intelligence…I’ve always admired child rapers in a strange way. Pretty much any successful does it.

    Etc.

  24. Would just shifting the tests — give it in Asia first, then in the US — solve a lot of this problem?

    But I agree with others. Nobody wants this solved. Between those in academia who just want the money, and those who are Tru Believers in the multi-cult (which is many, many, many of them), there is simply no constituency for fixing this problem.

    What, American whites who routinely get screwed? They can’t even figure out they should vote for Trump.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    What, American whites who routinely get screwed? They can’t even figure out they should vote for Trump.
     
    Yep, they're getting royally screwed yet are passionate about electing some creep who will flush them down the toilet for the almighty yen and peso. Still, they support this creep because "he's a Constitutional conservative". Maybe the coastal elites are on to something when they disparage flyover country? Like Wisconsin, with its cheesetard governor who was kicked out of Marquette for not being able to maintain a 2.0 GPA.
  25. Colleges might want Chinese students to cheat on the SAT.

    The vast majority of American middle class students cannot really afford college and don’t qualify for Federal Grants or loans. Colleges accommodate this by offering “scholarships” which are really price discounts (You get a 20K “scholarship, but that only means that you pay 40k instead of 60k per year in tuition).

    Foreign students of Rich Dignitaries and/or students paid for by foreign governments would be an especially lucrative source of revenue.

    The schools that thousands of Chinese students attend annually are private schools with good reputations, but nonetheless outside of top 20 schools. It’s probably a big bonus for them to jack up their student admission averages in the rankings with all of the cheat-jacked SAT scores.

  26. This is great for the US.

    China sends manufactured goods to the US and the US pays for them with worthless degrees.

    • Replies: @iSteveFan

    China sends manufactured goods to the US and the US pays for them with worthless degrees.
     
    Are the Chinese getting worthless degrees? I was under the impression most Chinese major in marketable fields like STEM. There aren't too many 'studies' majors among them.
    , @Former Darfur
    Not so great for Americans who aren't educrats.
  27. @Pittsburgh Thatcherite
    Eliminate any advantage from having access to an old test:

    Create a huge library of tens of thousands of test questions.

    This library of questions is freely available to all via the internet.

    Immediately before the test begins, a computer creates a specific test by randomly selecting 50 questions from the huge library of questions.

    The test-takers have access to all the possible questions, but never know in advance exactly which questions will be on the test.

    The huge library of test questions can be created by volunteers through an online, peer-reviewed process, similar to the way free, open-source software is created.

    It’s not that easy to come up with a good SAT question. They pre-test their questions extensively. A good SAT question not only has a correct answer but one or more wrong answers that are especially attractive to stupid people, which is called the “distractor”. Idiots are attracted to the distractor like flies to honey. This is how they separate the men from the boys. Each version of the SAT is statistically modeled and validated to be of the same difficulty as every other SAT so that a 500 on one test is the same as a 500 on any other test given both that year and in the past and future (except when they “renorm” every few decades). It’s not just a random bunch of questions – there is a whole science to the thing.

    If you are ever in the market for an SAT prep book for your offspring or otherwise, I recommend you buy only the “Real SAT” books put out by the College Board, which consist of past versions of actual SATs (this is difficult right now because they are changing the format and there are no old SATs to release). If you buy a book of fake SAT questions put together by Barrons or Princeton Review or whomever, the quality of the questions is clearly not as good. Not even close. Crafting a proper SAT question is a lot more difficult than it looks.

    • Replies: @OFWHAP
    Oh, I remember this. Whenever you take a standardized test, there's always a disclaimer saying that there are several questions on the test that will not be counted toward your score, but you never know which questions they are. When I was in undergrad, one of my Chinese classmates told us about their cram schools. They're tested so extensively that they get to the point of practically memorizing these tests so that they don't even have to fully read the questions anymore.

    Later on in graduate school, my Chinese classmates had a knack for going online and finding the teachers' manual so that they could copy the solutions for problem sets we had to do or find other people's work so that they could complete their case studies more quickly. I wonder if they really "learn" anything while in school. They're playing on their computers all during class and then completely copy other people's work for homework, projects, etc.

    As for the tuition thing, I know that the University of Georgia had a major preference for out-of-state and international students during the early 2000s. People with 4.0 GPAs from some of Atlanta's good private schools or VA boarding schools couldn't get into UGA, but mediocre students from other states in the southeast had no issue getting in. In fact as a student from GA, it was easier to get into GA Tech than UGA.
    , @Pittsburgh Thatcherite
    Quality standardized tests can be created through an online peer-reviewed rating system.

    First, a new question must be highly rated through an online peer review.

    Second, a new question is included in tests, but not counted towards a test-taker's score.

    If a question performs well in these first two steps, then it can be included in a standardized test.

    This process would result in a tremendous drop in the cost of creating standardized tests.

    There is no perfect test, but this system would create more reliable tests than the existing system.

    A test where some of the students have prior access to the questions is useless.

  28. I can’t see the current course being maintained for much longer.

    Graduating without at least some debt is close to impossible, given the expense of even affordable state colleges. And these kids today face a tough job market, with few entry-level positions open to them and horrible pay if they are lucky enough to land a job.

    In fact, salaries today are no better than they were 10-12 years when I was responsible for hiring young graduates. But housing costs are significantly higher, and student loan payments add a big hurdle to moving out and moving on.

    For the smart, hard-working kids, this can all be overcome. But we are sending lots of young people to college who have no business being there, and they are loading themselves down with debt that they will never be able to repay.

    • Replies: @Grumpy
    People don't realize how bad the situation actually is, especially for people drawn to the mid-level regional universities where most Americans attend college. Take, for example, two public regional universities in states with very high average PISA scores relative to other states, Massachusetts (#1 of 50) and Minnesota (#7).

    UMass Dartmouth has a 27 percent 4-year graduation rate.

    St. Cloud State (Minn.) has an 18 percent 4-year graduation rate.

    Their 6-year graduation rates are 47 and 44 percent, respectively.

    Half of the students (most of whom have student loans) never graduate. These two schools alone probably produce 10,000 indebted college drop-outs every year.

    The University of Houston, with a $1.7 billion budget, annually enrolls at least 20,000 new students who will never graduate. Think about what is happening on a national scale.
  29. Steve, For those who don’t read the comments, how about elevating the meat of education realist’s comment (15) to the main text?

  30. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Cheating is endemic in the Asian communities, both East and South. I signed up with a website that was supposed to help me find freelance jobs in my field, statistical analysis. I deleted my profile from that site because every day I was getting dozens of requests to complete homework assignments. I even had people want me to sign in to their online account and take exams for them. In every case, these people had Chinese or Indian names.

  31. Forget it, Jake. It’s vibrant.

  32. @Mark2
    Indeed, which is why I lack much respect for the "successful" by default.

    It’s always interesting to get a glimpse of the mental tricks the lazy use to maintain self esteem.

  33. What about the Chinese professors doing work at American universities that American-born PhDs just won’t do.

    tbo.com, 04/11/15 – USF, Chinese professor wrapped up in tenure tangle

    http://www.tbo.com/news/education/usf-chinese-professor-wrapped-up-in-tenure-tangle-20150411/

    …The University of South Florida finds itself in the uncomfortable position of having to reinstate a professor from China who has been suspended twice and was reportedly approached by the FBI to spy on his homeland.

    The twisting tale of Dajin Peng, a tenured professor ousted in 2010 as head of USF’s Confucius Institute, involves investigations into the use of university funds for personal expenses, sexual harassment, labor violations and even storage of “vile, disturbing” images on a university computer…

    The university provides a host of overseas academic programs and strives to be a welcome site for international students, with about 3,300 of them now studying there…

    Employees of the Confucius Institute at USF began to complain about Peng’s management style. They said they were doing personal work for Peng and logging unpaid hours. They complained of sexual harassment. He was accused of providing unethical assistance to students taking exams and misuse of visas and permits. And there were allegations Peng was using USF money for personal travel…

    Investigators turned up a “stunningly large volume of vile, disturbing images” on Peng’s university-issued computer, according to a USF report…

    He was eventually assigned 100 percent independent research with a requirement to report his progress to his department chair biweekly.

    USF considered firing the professor after the second investigation, but the constraints of tenure led to the university’s decision on a second, lengthier suspension…

  34. SS: It’s almost as if the American higher education system is so addicted to full tuition-paying East Asian students

    Who says foreign students pay full tuition?

    Tampa Tribune, 03/23/16 – Audit: USF broke law with hefty payouts to former athletic director, coach

    http://www.tampabay.com/news/education/college/audit-usf-broke-law-with-hefty-payouts-to-former-athletic-director-coach/2270526

    …State law allows USF [University of South Florida] to categorize students from Latin American or Caribbean countries as residents if they receive state or federal scholarships; however, USF was doing this even when the students were receiving other, non-qualifying scholarships.

    For example, 272 of 338 students examined by the auditor were receiving scholarships of up to $17,736 from USF, but had not received any federal or state scholarships. USF collected $2.9 million less in student fees than it should have.

    The university contended that because its funding draws from state or federal sources, it was correct to call these foreign students Florida residents.

  35. I guess if they wanted to test this scientifically they could schedule the Asian SAT before the US, making the US last in that 24 hr period. Then compare performance with past exams.

    Or they could include 10 new questions on the Asian SAT and compare the scores on those with the questions used in the earlier US SAT session.

  36. @anony-mouse
    This is great for the US.

    China sends manufactured goods to the US and the US pays for them with worthless degrees.

    China sends manufactured goods to the US and the US pays for them with worthless degrees.

    Are the Chinese getting worthless degrees? I was under the impression most Chinese major in marketable fields like STEM. There aren’t too many ‘studies’ majors among them.

  37. Some jobs like lawyers, politicians, economists, journalists – what is the big deal if you cheated to get there ? Its not like one needs any real learned skills to be successful, in fact the only real skill required is to cheat and deceive well to get to the top.

  38. @Darkecologist
    At my regional university the answer is, "Yep!"

    Also, don't spend any money helping internationals understand writing, or even how to get around this small town. Take that wealthy Chinese money and mark up your 'diversity' stats.

    Done and done.

    Chinese don’t count for diversity purposes.

  39. I wonder what effect cheating has on relative international PISA test scores.

  40. @Diversity Heretic
    Is there a selection bias here? Do they discourage the remaining Hmong from taking the tests?

    I believe PISA isn’t great at testing rural students anywhere.

  41. I doubt the SAT corruption in China and Korea has a big impact on US students. First, selective schools have a predetermined percentage of international students, usually about 10 percent. And of this number, the percentage from China is rather small. For example, out of approximately 6700 undergrads at Harvard, only 45 are Chinese nationals. About 11 a year, for a country of 1.3 billion. About the same percentage of camels can pass through the eye of a needle. It is much, much harder as a Chinese or Korean to get into the most selective US schools than it is for Americans. For the very top schools, admission from China will be determined not by standardized test scores, but by other factors, such as getting an International Math Olympiad gold medal or being the President’s daughter.

    It seems very high English scores on standardized tests taken in China and Korea are viewed quite skeptically in US admission offices. The student mentioned in the article who got an 800 on the SAT Critical Reading section is a student, where? At UCLA. UCLA has an average Critical Reading score of only 637, and the 75th percentile is at just 710. An 800 Critical Reading score for an American, combined with a similar score on the math and excellent grades, is enough to be at least in the running for the Ivy League, and gives you pretty good odds at the top Liberal Arts Colleges and the better National Universities (places like Duke and Northwestern).

    But people with these perfect scores from China mainly end up going to significantly less selective schools. UCLA is a pretty good consolation prize, of course, so it’s likely Ding had some other things going for him besides high scores. There could be other Chinese with 800 CRs going to San Diego State.

    At the end of the day, Chinese who game the SAT are competing against other Chinese students for the few available Chinese slots. They are not taking American seats.

    • Replies: @Former Darfur
    Why is it any Chinese have to go to any American schools, except maybe for immersion schooling in American English, or for postgrad study of religion or culture? Are not Chinese capable of teaching other Chinese?
    , @peterike

    And of this number, the percentage from China is rather small. For example, out of approximately 6700 undergrads at Harvard, only 45 are Chinese nationals.

     

    Hmmm. Well according to Harvard, 10.8% of the Class of 2019 were "international students." Yet 21% of the class were "Asian-Americans," which I assume includes Green Card holders.

    What I want to know is what percent of the Asian-Americans are born-in-America, vs. my parents bought their Green Card via Section 203(b). The Asian college scam no doubt works hand-in-hand with the many immigration scams that also proliferate.

    And what if you just lie on your application? Do colleges actually verify citizenship?
    , @Ttjy
    " UCLA is a pretty good consolation prize,"

    You mean the University of Caucasian Loathing Assholes.

    Even the "American"students are getting to be less and less white.
  42. UC system admits that bringing in more foreigners help balance budget shortfalls:
    “The audit’s conclusions were denounced by UC President Janet Napolitano. She said that an unprecedented cut in state support for the 10-campus system prompted the effort to recruit more nonresident students, who pay higher tuition.

    “To suggest from the outset that UC decisions regarding admissions were designed to ‘disadvantage Californians,’ as opposed to mitigate the impact of a 33% budget cut, is a rush to judgment that is both unfair and unwarranted,” she said in a March 8 letter included in the audit.

    UC officials insist that nonresident students don’t displace Californians. Instead, they say, the $23,000 in additional tuition that nonresidents pay each year has allowed UC to enroll thousands more California students than the system could otherwise afford.

    Without the extra money from out-of-state students, Californians could have faced an additional $2,500 in tuition — a 20% boost, Napolitano said. Tuition and fees have doubled since the 2008 recession, but have stayed flat — except for one fee increase — since 2011-12 as part of an agreement between Napolitano and Gov. Jerry Brown for more than $3 billion in new dollars over four years.”

    • Replies: @DWB
    This was the top story on the local news last night - that UC (and especially, the top UCs) are quietly letting in less-qualified non-resident students to get the extra out of state tuition.

    Curiously, the implication in the KTVU story was that Berkeley (the closest campus) is filled with students from Oregon and Illinois, ignoring the question of how many foreign students are on campus.

    Here are some data from the UC registrar:

    http://admissions.berkeley.edu/studentprofile

    About 9% of the students admitted (matriculated not in the report) were "international." "Out of state," presumably Americans from other states, were roughly double that (17%).

    Looking at the GPAs and SAT scores, the foreign admits are numerically inferior on both (GPA 3.91 vs. 3.92, SAT 2124 vs 2171).

    I would have expected that the argument for foreign students would be that they are exceptional and thus add to the campus - that they are at BEST equivalent to Americans from other states sort of belies the point.

    From another source: (http://internationaloffice.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/shared/docs/student-stats-fall14.pdf)

    the overwhelming majority of these international students are from the far east (72%), mainly China (about half of all foreign undergrads - 1237 of 2573). That doesn't include the 152 from Hong Kong (technically, a semi-autonomous region of China), 17 from Macau (ditto) or the 72 from Taiwan.

    I suspect that if Berkeley were really interested in having the campus be more "diverse," they would not admit so many people from the PRC.
  43. @Anonymous
    People who cheat show that they have lots of attractive qualities: the will to succeed, initiative, courage, intelligence.

    I've always admired cheaters in a strange way. Pretty much any successful does it.

    In the case of the Asian students, it is the father who initiates the cheating. The student himself might have nothing to do with it, except to play along…exactly the type of person you don’t want with a job-attracting degree.

    Also, one of the comments points out that you don’t want cheaters as doctors, engineers, lawyers, judges, police or cooks. You’re pretty much limited to managers, college administrators, and politicians if you expect benefits from the type of person who benefits the organization by cheating.

  44. Same with the GRE. I had a few Chinese friends at OSU who told me, “Chinese always get a perfect score on the GRE.” I thought at first they were bragging, but they explained that Chinese do it by cheating. They use the same methods for cheating the GRE as the SAT.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-testing-cheating-idUSTRE76Q19R20110727

  45. Hey, look on the bright side. The word “vibrant” was used to describe something bad. Assuming, of course, that the writer considers cheating bad.

  46. College admissions are crazy, or ridiculously competitive, or corrupt, or all three.

    My nephew achieved a perfect score on the ACT this year. 4.0 GPA, lots of activities (Football, Lacrosse, tutoring, volunteer, etc). Couldn’t get accepted to the school of his choice (MIT).

    My niece achieved a near perfect score on her SAT. Again, 4.0 GPA, tons of activities. Been waitlisted on her top choices (Ivies, Williams, Georgetown), but granted full academic scholarship to her fall-back, 2nd tier school, choice.

    Democratic profile: White, Christian.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    I'd guess most of the old people on this site have NO idea what college admissions are like now.


    I know a recent graduate of Brown who was literally valedictorian/2400 SAT.


    She was rejected at ALL of Harvard/Yale/Princeton/Stanford/MIT.

    Her sin? Being a white person from a well-represented area (nice DC suburb).


    When you start counting down from "diversity" admits, legacy admits, wealthy future legacy donors, the politically connected, celebrities, recruited athletes/mathletes/musicians, the international elite, etc. etc. there are just no spots for white kids from good suburbs.

  47. @Jack D
    It's not that easy to come up with a good SAT question. They pre-test their questions extensively. A good SAT question not only has a correct answer but one or more wrong answers that are especially attractive to stupid people, which is called the "distractor". Idiots are attracted to the distractor like flies to honey. This is how they separate the men from the boys. Each version of the SAT is statistically modeled and validated to be of the same difficulty as every other SAT so that a 500 on one test is the same as a 500 on any other test given both that year and in the past and future (except when they "renorm" every few decades). It's not just a random bunch of questions - there is a whole science to the thing.

    If you are ever in the market for an SAT prep book for your offspring or otherwise, I recommend you buy only the "Real SAT" books put out by the College Board, which consist of past versions of actual SATs (this is difficult right now because they are changing the format and there are no old SATs to release). If you buy a book of fake SAT questions put together by Barrons or Princeton Review or whomever, the quality of the questions is clearly not as good. Not even close. Crafting a proper SAT question is a lot more difficult than it looks.

    Oh, I remember this. Whenever you take a standardized test, there’s always a disclaimer saying that there are several questions on the test that will not be counted toward your score, but you never know which questions they are. When I was in undergrad, one of my Chinese classmates told us about their cram schools. They’re tested so extensively that they get to the point of practically memorizing these tests so that they don’t even have to fully read the questions anymore.

    Later on in graduate school, my Chinese classmates had a knack for going online and finding the teachers’ manual so that they could copy the solutions for problem sets we had to do or find other people’s work so that they could complete their case studies more quickly. I wonder if they really “learn” anything while in school. They’re playing on their computers all during class and then completely copy other people’s work for homework, projects, etc.

    As for the tuition thing, I know that the University of Georgia had a major preference for out-of-state and international students during the early 2000s. People with 4.0 GPAs from some of Atlanta’s good private schools or VA boarding schools couldn’t get into UGA, but mediocre students from other states in the southeast had no issue getting in. In fact as a student from GA, it was easier to get into GA Tech than UGA.

    • Replies: @E. Rekshun
    I know that the University of Georgia had a major preference for out-of-state and international students during the early 2000s.

    In '98 I was a FL resident, scored a 720 on the GMAT, and applied to the University of GA full-time MBA program. They offered my a full-ride tuition scholarship. I suspect that they wanted to boost their incoming GMAT numbers. I ended up going to the UF on a half-tuition scholarship. As a FL resident, my MBA program cost me just $5000 total tuition.
  48. It might be that a normal societal top, ruling class through thought leaders, high functionaries, and disenfrachised but ideologically convinced coffee fetchers, wants meritocracy because they appreciate its importance.
    My impression of history is that the natural impulse to centralization and stultification is irresistable: the Chinese have almost always chosen stability over achievement, for millenia, and this is my explanation for why whites with generally inferior IQs invented, advanced and conquered. The over-celebrated and under-explained Chinese anticipation of standardized testing guaranteed stability rather than sought ability.
    I cannot find anywhere before now that the Chinese admired or wanted the kind of advancement we take for granted as the natural societal goal. When I was in China I was flat-out told that the only alternative to totalitarianism is violent chaos, which is certainly illustrated by their history. They looked at the Third Man quote and thought Switzerland is a nice place to live.
    Every ruling class is sure it could get the agenda done given enough power. They desire more depending on their situation: the Bolsheviks in power decided on a very great deal after Lenin was accosted by roadblocking vigilantes for the third or fourth time. Very few of them every question their own ability or correctness. The English have historically been gentler, at one time because their people were armed, later because they could afford to be: now their people are disarmed and soon they will be able to claim they can no longer afford the white privilege of the past. Just in time for the All Halal Constabulary!
    But clearly that desire to find the truly smart people is a presupposition in any discussion about expensive, labor-intensive, respected testing.
    I don’t think that’s true any more for a new reason we could conflate with the Singularity. Our leaders seem to have the sense that it’s all been invented and the next Henry Ford would be more trouble than reward.
    I think our leaders want Sound Men more than they want testing to work.
    I get the consistent impression that natural and inevitable hostility to meritocracy — the sense that we could solve everything if only you bumpkins would hold still and follow our orders — has more than accelerated. It might be that technology makes the promise of an unquestioned leadership more credible (the vaccine discussion) or maybe technology is partly taking over and the bureaucracy itself is getting out of its way, and cannot imagine why peasants would remain both bothering mandarin and AM. Either way I cannot go along with the presupposition that our best and brightest want the sort of sorting that gave us Robert S. McNamara. They want their kid and they want the kid of a developing world ruling caste, those are who they want, and them only because of a biological accident. Questions about being able to do the job are disrespect. The computer’s doing the job anyway.
    This is what it looks like, that thing Bill Gates explained: what had happened to blue collar is now scheduled for white collar workers.

  49. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @TomSchmidt
    The education bubble is collapsing for American college students. The shell-shocked seniors who never questioned taking on all that debt are being replaced more and more by foreigners. This will not end well.

    Done in 10 years, max.

    The education bubble is collapsing for American college students. The shell-shocked seniors who never questioned taking on all that debt are being replaced more and more by foreigners. This will not end well.

    Done in 10 years, max.

    Oh no, what’s going to happen to all those bright savvy young people who’ve trained for the information economy and increased their intellectual capital while decreasing their capital capital??

    • Replies: @TomSchmidt
    Do you want fries with that?
  50. you’ve got it somewhat backwards.

    it’s not that they want fake SAT scores to validate their admissions decisions.

    they would admit them anyway.

    its that SAT scores are important for school rankings so you might as well have higher scores for the people you have to take.

    • Agree: Stephen R. Diamond
  51. @NJ Transit Commuter
    I wonder why it is that people are so willing to cast aspersions on the motivations of corporations (which are at least honest about their money grubbing) and give universities a pass while they load up students with debt for degrees of dubious value, among other ethically challenging practices. These are only anecdotes, but...

    When I graduated from college many moons ago, a roommate applied to Harvard for graduate school. He was rejected. A quick call to mom and dad (both Harvard grads) got him in.

    In the public school my kids attend (in central NJ) it is common knowledge that kids of Princeton professors can get accepted there with lower standards than kids with no connections.

    If schools like Harvard and Princeton, that have a strong economic interest in maintaining their brand, are willing to do this, how tempting will it be for state universities to accept more engage in more questionable admission practices?

    How long before the education bubble collapses?

    How long before the education bubble collapses?

    Not soon enough.

  52. Hey the Hans are not the only tribe gaming the system. Ron is a great guy but I ain’t putting my name on this one

    http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2016/03/23/feds-accuse-michigan-jewish-institute-pell-grant-fraud/82154520/

  53. @keuril
    I doubt the SAT corruption in China and Korea has a big impact on US students. First, selective schools have a predetermined percentage of international students, usually about 10 percent. And of this number, the percentage from China is rather small. For example, out of approximately 6700 undergrads at Harvard, only 45 are Chinese nationals. About 11 a year, for a country of 1.3 billion. About the same percentage of camels can pass through the eye of a needle. It is much, much harder as a Chinese or Korean to get into the most selective US schools than it is for Americans. For the very top schools, admission from China will be determined not by standardized test scores, but by other factors, such as getting an International Math Olympiad gold medal or being the President’s daughter.

    It seems very high English scores on standardized tests taken in China and Korea are viewed quite skeptically in US admission offices. The student mentioned in the article who got an 800 on the SAT Critical Reading section is a student, where? At UCLA. UCLA has an average Critical Reading score of only 637, and the 75th percentile is at just 710. An 800 Critical Reading score for an American, combined with a similar score on the math and excellent grades, is enough to be at least in the running for the Ivy League, and gives you pretty good odds at the top Liberal Arts Colleges and the better National Universities (places like Duke and Northwestern).

    But people with these perfect scores from China mainly end up going to significantly less selective schools. UCLA is a pretty good consolation prize, of course, so it's likely Ding had some other things going for him besides high scores. There could be other Chinese with 800 CRs going to San Diego State.

    At the end of the day, Chinese who game the SAT are competing against other Chinese students for the few available Chinese slots. They are not taking American seats.

    Why is it any Chinese have to go to any American schools, except maybe for immersion schooling in American English, or for postgrad study of religion or culture? Are not Chinese capable of teaching other Chinese?

    • Replies: @Ttjy
    Exactly.
    , @Anonymous
    You should ask the American schools, which clearly seek to have certain percentages of their student populations to be filled with Asians and international students and recruit accordingly.

    Outside of nationalistic regimes in which they're controlled heavily by the state, universities tend not to be very nationalistic culturally, in addition to the monetary incentives for foreign students. So steering universities in that direction will probably require public policy.
    , @Anoni
    Well you get 3 years of Automatic H1B visa working for far more than most chinese could get in China. That will most likely lead to a permanent job. So the gov't is allowing schools to sell backdoor citizenship. I think private schools should be able to offer admission to whomever they please, but not citizenship. I think because of the rigid chinese exam system there are a lot of Chinese kids who can go to more prestigious schools here than there. Especially with the cheating.
  54. @anony-mouse
    This is great for the US.

    China sends manufactured goods to the US and the US pays for them with worthless degrees.

    Not so great for Americans who aren’t educrats.

  55. That reminds me of these blog posts made by Paul Kersey and Mike Smith.

  56. @Jack D
    It's not that easy to come up with a good SAT question. They pre-test their questions extensively. A good SAT question not only has a correct answer but one or more wrong answers that are especially attractive to stupid people, which is called the "distractor". Idiots are attracted to the distractor like flies to honey. This is how they separate the men from the boys. Each version of the SAT is statistically modeled and validated to be of the same difficulty as every other SAT so that a 500 on one test is the same as a 500 on any other test given both that year and in the past and future (except when they "renorm" every few decades). It's not just a random bunch of questions - there is a whole science to the thing.

    If you are ever in the market for an SAT prep book for your offspring or otherwise, I recommend you buy only the "Real SAT" books put out by the College Board, which consist of past versions of actual SATs (this is difficult right now because they are changing the format and there are no old SATs to release). If you buy a book of fake SAT questions put together by Barrons or Princeton Review or whomever, the quality of the questions is clearly not as good. Not even close. Crafting a proper SAT question is a lot more difficult than it looks.

    Quality standardized tests can be created through an online peer-reviewed rating system.

    First, a new question must be highly rated through an online peer review.

    Second, a new question is included in tests, but not counted towards a test-taker’s score.

    If a question performs well in these first two steps, then it can be included in a standardized test.

    This process would result in a tremendous drop in the cost of creating standardized tests.

    There is no perfect test, but this system would create more reliable tests than the existing system.

    A test where some of the students have prior access to the questions is useless.

  57. ahah, what is wrong with colleges milking the international students? they want a paper from the universities, and they pay good money for it 🙂 so they can go back to china for better pay 🙂

    studying for the SATs? I know for a fact any american parents with a brain prepare their kids for SATs as early as the 7th grade. This isn’t a chinese phenomenon that the author is trying to paint.

    Retards thinking a test that determines your future doesn’t need to be studied for. And retards thinking a test can be study proof 🙂

    • Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic
    Because the number of admissions is finite. For every offspring of some corrupt Han bureaucrat who doesn't speak or write functional English and is a stunted, mediocre rote learner, an American who may be served very well by a college education is bumped.

    There used to be only "exchange students." They send a few here, we send a few there, glorious diversity. Let these countries educate their own people.
    , @Anonandon
    You don't really "study" for the SAT, GRE, LSAT, etc. You practice them, as you'd practice learning dance steps or a musical instrument. You keep taking them under real-time conditions, then methodically dissect them afterwards, over and over, until eventually a test that seemed insanely difficult at first can be done almost in your sleep. Takes several months of daily practice to reach that stage, though. But since these tests determine your future, it is time and effort well spent.
  58. @Astuteobservor II
    ahah, what is wrong with colleges milking the international students? they want a paper from the universities, and they pay good money for it :) so they can go back to china for better pay :)

    studying for the SATs? I know for a fact any american parents with a brain prepare their kids for SATs as early as the 7th grade. This isn't a chinese phenomenon that the author is trying to paint.

    Retards thinking a test that determines your future doesn't need to be studied for. And retards thinking a test can be study proof :)

    Because the number of admissions is finite. For every offspring of some corrupt Han bureaucrat who doesn’t speak or write functional English and is a stunted, mediocre rote learner, an American who may be served very well by a college education is bumped.

    There used to be only “exchange students.” They send a few here, we send a few there, glorious diversity. Let these countries educate their own people.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    just so you know, I replied but the comment got censored.
  59. @keuril
    I doubt the SAT corruption in China and Korea has a big impact on US students. First, selective schools have a predetermined percentage of international students, usually about 10 percent. And of this number, the percentage from China is rather small. For example, out of approximately 6700 undergrads at Harvard, only 45 are Chinese nationals. About 11 a year, for a country of 1.3 billion. About the same percentage of camels can pass through the eye of a needle. It is much, much harder as a Chinese or Korean to get into the most selective US schools than it is for Americans. For the very top schools, admission from China will be determined not by standardized test scores, but by other factors, such as getting an International Math Olympiad gold medal or being the President’s daughter.

    It seems very high English scores on standardized tests taken in China and Korea are viewed quite skeptically in US admission offices. The student mentioned in the article who got an 800 on the SAT Critical Reading section is a student, where? At UCLA. UCLA has an average Critical Reading score of only 637, and the 75th percentile is at just 710. An 800 Critical Reading score for an American, combined with a similar score on the math and excellent grades, is enough to be at least in the running for the Ivy League, and gives you pretty good odds at the top Liberal Arts Colleges and the better National Universities (places like Duke and Northwestern).

    But people with these perfect scores from China mainly end up going to significantly less selective schools. UCLA is a pretty good consolation prize, of course, so it's likely Ding had some other things going for him besides high scores. There could be other Chinese with 800 CRs going to San Diego State.

    At the end of the day, Chinese who game the SAT are competing against other Chinese students for the few available Chinese slots. They are not taking American seats.

    And of this number, the percentage from China is rather small. For example, out of approximately 6700 undergrads at Harvard, only 45 are Chinese nationals.

    Hmmm. Well according to Harvard, 10.8% of the Class of 2019 were “international students.” Yet 21% of the class were “Asian-Americans,” which I assume includes Green Card holders.

    What I want to know is what percent of the Asian-Americans are born-in-America, vs. my parents bought their Green Card via Section 203(b). The Asian college scam no doubt works hand-in-hand with the many immigration scams that also proliferate.

    And what if you just lie on your application? Do colleges actually verify citizenship?

    • Replies: @keuril
    The individual races you see listed are for American citizens. "International" is a separate category.
  60. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Daniel H
    College admissions are crazy, or ridiculously competitive, or corrupt, or all three.

    My nephew achieved a perfect score on the ACT this year. 4.0 GPA, lots of activities (Football, Lacrosse, tutoring, volunteer, etc). Couldn't get accepted to the school of his choice (MIT).

    My niece achieved a near perfect score on her SAT. Again, 4.0 GPA, tons of activities. Been waitlisted on her top choices (Ivies, Williams, Georgetown), but granted full academic scholarship to her fall-back, 2nd tier school, choice.

    Democratic profile: White, Christian.

    I’d guess most of the old people on this site have NO idea what college admissions are like now.

    I know a recent graduate of Brown who was literally valedictorian/2400 SAT.

    She was rejected at ALL of Harvard/Yale/Princeton/Stanford/MIT.

    Her sin? Being a white person from a well-represented area (nice DC suburb).

    When you start counting down from “diversity” admits, legacy admits, wealthy future legacy donors, the politically connected, celebrities, recruited athletes/mathletes/musicians, the international elite, etc. etc. there are just no spots for white kids from good suburbs.

    • Replies: @Immigrant from former USSR
    Esteemed Anonymous from comment #60:
    I am interested to learn, what was that lady's major in Brown ?
    And what is she doing after graduation ?
    My interest is sincere, without hidden attempt of "gotcha".
    , @keuril
    Yes, about half of each class is "hooked", as they say. Hooks include legacy, professor's kid, NAM, recruited athlete, VIP, development ($10mil+), first generation to attend college etc.

    For unhooked kids, simply having great grades and test scores is not enough. Those things are simply the price of entry to the beauty contest phase. You need something that sets you apart. Usually such things are not ersatz activities that lots of ppl do.

    A cliche now is that they don't want well-rounded students; they want a well-rounded class.
    , @yaqub the mad scientist
    there are just no spots for white kids from good suburbs.

    How about kids from flyover country? As has been pointed out again and again, being rural, in ROTC, in FFA, or any other "dangerous" markers gets your app tossed out of hand.
    , @The Practical Conservative
    Getting to go to an Ivy anyway means it's not actually a problem for UMC whites, doesn't it.

    As others are noting, this is more a problem for the leg-up lower-MC kids who can't get into state schools that would have previously admitted them because those schools are busy scooping up international students and their tuition checks.
    , @The Practical Conservative
    Getting to go to an Ivy anyway means it's not actually a problem for UMC whites, doesn't it.

    As others are noting, this is more a problem for the leg-up lower-MC kids who can't get into state schools that would have previously admitted them because those schools are busy scooping up international students and their tuition checks.
  61. @Clyde

    How long before the education bubble collapses?
     
    One thing for sure is that Chinese/Asian/other foreign students paying full freight are keeping it going longer than it would have. Also factor in Democrat office holders who universally advocate "mo' education" as the solution for every problem they create via open borders and "free trade" policies. Which amazingly enough translates into a full employment program (courtesy of taxpayers) for that key Democrat constituency known as "educators".

    Are you sure it’s the fault of the Democrats as opposed to modern politicians in general? In Britain, Australia and New Zealand, the centre right is even worse on education than the centre left. The centre right has cut back on funding for apprenticeships and technical schools and pushed for more students to attend universities. The Neo-con Labour PM Tony Blair was obsessed with education and it’s supposed power to transform the economy.

    Any politician who believes in the blank slate theory of human nature and neoliberal economic principles will inevitably be a big supporter of the education industrial establishment.

    To oppose the EIE, you need to accept the following:

    -people vary in terms of intelligence, talent and many other important variables

    -education doesn’t necessarily make people smarter, wiser or more employable

    -people often make irrational choices and are often ignorant of labour market realities

    -long-term economic development often depends on making short-term sacrifices for long-term gains (like giving maths teachers pay rises, even if it means cutting back on a new gym)

  62. @Anonymous
    I'd guess most of the old people on this site have NO idea what college admissions are like now.


    I know a recent graduate of Brown who was literally valedictorian/2400 SAT.


    She was rejected at ALL of Harvard/Yale/Princeton/Stanford/MIT.

    Her sin? Being a white person from a well-represented area (nice DC suburb).


    When you start counting down from "diversity" admits, legacy admits, wealthy future legacy donors, the politically connected, celebrities, recruited athletes/mathletes/musicians, the international elite, etc. etc. there are just no spots for white kids from good suburbs.

    Esteemed Anonymous from comment #60:
    I am interested to learn, what was that lady’s major in Brown ?
    And what is she doing after graduation ?
    My interest is sincere, without hidden attempt of “gotcha”.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Computer science. Working for a major security clearance type contractor.
  63. @Anonymous

    The education bubble is collapsing for American college students. The shell-shocked seniors who never questioned taking on all that debt are being replaced more and more by foreigners. This will not end well.

    Done in 10 years, max.
     
    Oh no, what's going to happen to all those bright savvy young people who've trained for the information economy and increased their intellectual capital while decreasing their capital capital??

    Do you want fries with that?

  64. Story time. Right after college graduation, I foolishly signed up for a Master’s Degree at Columbia in Teaching English as a Second Language. It barely qualifies you any better than a 6-week certificate but comes with a $40k price tag. I had been quite unimpressed with my undergrad state school education but hoped I’d at last be getting cutting-edge linguistic education from a top school that might lead to a worthy career in a field I enjoyed. I was very surprised in my first week to discover that in every class I was one of two to four native English speakers in class sizes of 12 to 35. The rest were almost exclusively Asian, mostly Korean.

    Being 22, I complained to my parents that school was a waste of time. The teachers actually had to slow down to teach basic grammatical concepts to these foreigners. They were not just an Asian elite of talented English speakers. Some were good enough that they could speak in well thought-out sentences. Others were good enough to order a meal in English, but no better. My parents did not believe me. Finally, my mom was visiting New York and I took her to class. She was flabbergasted that Asian kids were shooting their hands up to ask the teacher to repeat words they didn’t know. And that the class was retardedly slow so that the Asians could understand the lesson and mark notes down since they would have had trouble understanding the concepts without excessive re-study.

    I thought it was just bad luck. I didn’t have worldly knowledge at the time, it took me a few months to realize that the reason they were there was to fill the school’s coffers with $40k a pop, sometimes $80k because it took them two years to do what I did in one year. They were actually, I learned, spending their first semester taking several classes in REMEDIAL English, while they were at the same time getting an advanced degree in teaching it. Nevertheless, they could go back to Korea and make good money as top English teachers with a degree from a top U.S. school. Meanwhile, I actually had problems like defending myself to a teacher when a goody two-shoes Asian kid complained that I “refused” to work on a group project with the others. In fact, when we were scheduling our meeting to work on it, I told her I “can’t” meet on Tuesday, she understood it as I “won’t” meet on Tuesday and denounced me to the teacher. It took a couple meetings and emails, after I was threatened with a failing grade, for me to understand why she thought I was ditching the work in order to be able to defend against this charge. On the other hand, I had another class that assigned us a project of making a report about a neighborhood in New York to present to the class. I procrastinated and procrastinated because I thought it was a stupid assignment. A week before the end of the semester, I had done one afternoon of “research” in 4 months, but I was glad I didn’t do the work in the end, because the teacher pulled the three Americans aside with a week before presentations, telling us that we were not required to do the assignment, the main assignment of the semester, because it was just a “real world assignment” to help the Asians work on their English in context. I’m in graduate school and literally being given assignments below what I’d been asked to do in 3rd grade. I was glad to be excused from the assignment, however, a refund of the $5000 that course proportionally took from my tuition was not offered to be refunded.

    That was fifteen years ago. I’m still paying the loan. I never went into teaching. I’m glad this is getting more attention.

    • Replies: @Immigrant from former USSR

    a refund of the $5000 that course proportionally took from my tuition was not offered to be refunded.
     
    And

    I never went into teaching.
     
    I am happy for your potential students of English language,
    which have not materialized.
    , @Anonandon
    I'm betting this woman was one of its graduates:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wF7qw6TSP8g
    , @Daniel H
    One of the online university course sites (Coursera or EDX) is now offering ESL credential certificates. Entire sequence will set you back a few hundred dollars.
    , @Anonymous
    Columbia's Teachers College is practically a diploma mill.

    Some claimed my “legacy” status was a factor. This critique hurt me the most, even though it isn’t entirely applicable in my case. My parents are graduates of Teachers College, and the Office of Undergraduate Admissions defines “legacies” solely as the children of Columbia College and School of Engineering and Applied Science graduates. I don’t meet these criteria, but the office also notes that being the child of a Columbia University graduate from any school or college “may be a slight advantage in the admission process.”
     
    http://columbiaspectator.com/opinion/2016/03/21/legacy-status-not-leg-0
  65. @peterike

    And of this number, the percentage from China is rather small. For example, out of approximately 6700 undergrads at Harvard, only 45 are Chinese nationals.

     

    Hmmm. Well according to Harvard, 10.8% of the Class of 2019 were "international students." Yet 21% of the class were "Asian-Americans," which I assume includes Green Card holders.

    What I want to know is what percent of the Asian-Americans are born-in-America, vs. my parents bought their Green Card via Section 203(b). The Asian college scam no doubt works hand-in-hand with the many immigration scams that also proliferate.

    And what if you just lie on your application? Do colleges actually verify citizenship?

    The individual races you see listed are for American citizens. “International” is a separate category.

  66. @Anonymous
    I'd guess most of the old people on this site have NO idea what college admissions are like now.


    I know a recent graduate of Brown who was literally valedictorian/2400 SAT.


    She was rejected at ALL of Harvard/Yale/Princeton/Stanford/MIT.

    Her sin? Being a white person from a well-represented area (nice DC suburb).


    When you start counting down from "diversity" admits, legacy admits, wealthy future legacy donors, the politically connected, celebrities, recruited athletes/mathletes/musicians, the international elite, etc. etc. there are just no spots for white kids from good suburbs.

    Yes, about half of each class is “hooked”, as they say. Hooks include legacy, professor’s kid, NAM, recruited athlete, VIP, development ($10mil+), first generation to attend college etc.

    For unhooked kids, simply having great grades and test scores is not enough. Those things are simply the price of entry to the beauty contest phase. You need something that sets you apart. Usually such things are not ersatz activities that lots of ppl do.

    A cliche now is that they don’t want well-rounded students; they want a well-rounded class.

  67. @Astuteobservor II
    ahah, what is wrong with colleges milking the international students? they want a paper from the universities, and they pay good money for it :) so they can go back to china for better pay :)

    studying for the SATs? I know for a fact any american parents with a brain prepare their kids for SATs as early as the 7th grade. This isn't a chinese phenomenon that the author is trying to paint.

    Retards thinking a test that determines your future doesn't need to be studied for. And retards thinking a test can be study proof :)

    You don’t really “study” for the SAT, GRE, LSAT, etc. You practice them, as you’d practice learning dance steps or a musical instrument. You keep taking them under real-time conditions, then methodically dissect them afterwards, over and over, until eventually a test that seemed insanely difficult at first can be done almost in your sleep. Takes several months of daily practice to reach that stage, though. But since these tests determine your future, it is time and effort well spent.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    that is studying :) practice is part of studying.
    , @Jack D
    It really depends on how smart you are. If you are already in a STEM program and are really good at math, then the math on the GRE is really not that difficult and you might not have to study for it at all. On the other hand, if you are not that bright, you could take a million practice tests and still not do well. In the end, these tests are heavily "g loaded" - in other words they are IQ tests in disguise. Not that there is anything wrong with that - IQ is a strong predictor of how well you will do in any academic program.
  68. @Warner
    Story time. Right after college graduation, I foolishly signed up for a Master’s Degree at Columbia in Teaching English as a Second Language. It barely qualifies you any better than a 6-week certificate but comes with a $40k price tag. I had been quite unimpressed with my undergrad state school education but hoped I’d at last be getting cutting-edge linguistic education from a top school that might lead to a worthy career in a field I enjoyed. I was very surprised in my first week to discover that in every class I was one of two to four native English speakers in class sizes of 12 to 35. The rest were almost exclusively Asian, mostly Korean.

    Being 22, I complained to my parents that school was a waste of time. The teachers actually had to slow down to teach basic grammatical concepts to these foreigners. They were not just an Asian elite of talented English speakers. Some were good enough that they could speak in well thought-out sentences. Others were good enough to order a meal in English, but no better. My parents did not believe me. Finally, my mom was visiting New York and I took her to class. She was flabbergasted that Asian kids were shooting their hands up to ask the teacher to repeat words they didn’t know. And that the class was retardedly slow so that the Asians could understand the lesson and mark notes down since they would have had trouble understanding the concepts without excessive re-study.

    I thought it was just bad luck. I didn’t have worldly knowledge at the time, it took me a few months to realize that the reason they were there was to fill the school’s coffers with $40k a pop, sometimes $80k because it took them two years to do what I did in one year. They were actually, I learned, spending their first semester taking several classes in REMEDIAL English, while they were at the same time getting an advanced degree in teaching it. Nevertheless, they could go back to Korea and make good money as top English teachers with a degree from a top U.S. school. Meanwhile, I actually had problems like defending myself to a teacher when a goody two-shoes Asian kid complained that I “refused” to work on a group project with the others. In fact, when we were scheduling our meeting to work on it, I told her I “can’t” meet on Tuesday, she understood it as I “won’t” meet on Tuesday and denounced me to the teacher. It took a couple meetings and emails, after I was threatened with a failing grade, for me to understand why she thought I was ditching the work in order to be able to defend against this charge. On the other hand, I had another class that assigned us a project of making a report about a neighborhood in New York to present to the class. I procrastinated and procrastinated because I thought it was a stupid assignment. A week before the end of the semester, I had done one afternoon of “research” in 4 months, but I was glad I didn’t do the work in the end, because the teacher pulled the three Americans aside with a week before presentations, telling us that we were not required to do the assignment, the main assignment of the semester, because it was just a “real world assignment” to help the Asians work on their English in context. I’m in graduate school and literally being given assignments below what I’d been asked to do in 3rd grade. I was glad to be excused from the assignment, however, a refund of the $5000 that course proportionally took from my tuition was not offered to be refunded.

    That was fifteen years ago. I'm still paying the loan. I never went into teaching. I’m glad this is getting more attention.

    a refund of the $5000 that course proportionally took from my tuition was not offered to be refunded.

    And

    I never went into teaching.

    I am happy for your potential students of English language,
    which have not materialized.

    • Replies: @Warner
    They rubbed off on me. Before that course, I was as Shakespeare! I should sue.
  69. @Warner
    Story time. Right after college graduation, I foolishly signed up for a Master’s Degree at Columbia in Teaching English as a Second Language. It barely qualifies you any better than a 6-week certificate but comes with a $40k price tag. I had been quite unimpressed with my undergrad state school education but hoped I’d at last be getting cutting-edge linguistic education from a top school that might lead to a worthy career in a field I enjoyed. I was very surprised in my first week to discover that in every class I was one of two to four native English speakers in class sizes of 12 to 35. The rest were almost exclusively Asian, mostly Korean.

    Being 22, I complained to my parents that school was a waste of time. The teachers actually had to slow down to teach basic grammatical concepts to these foreigners. They were not just an Asian elite of talented English speakers. Some were good enough that they could speak in well thought-out sentences. Others were good enough to order a meal in English, but no better. My parents did not believe me. Finally, my mom was visiting New York and I took her to class. She was flabbergasted that Asian kids were shooting their hands up to ask the teacher to repeat words they didn’t know. And that the class was retardedly slow so that the Asians could understand the lesson and mark notes down since they would have had trouble understanding the concepts without excessive re-study.

    I thought it was just bad luck. I didn’t have worldly knowledge at the time, it took me a few months to realize that the reason they were there was to fill the school’s coffers with $40k a pop, sometimes $80k because it took them two years to do what I did in one year. They were actually, I learned, spending their first semester taking several classes in REMEDIAL English, while they were at the same time getting an advanced degree in teaching it. Nevertheless, they could go back to Korea and make good money as top English teachers with a degree from a top U.S. school. Meanwhile, I actually had problems like defending myself to a teacher when a goody two-shoes Asian kid complained that I “refused” to work on a group project with the others. In fact, when we were scheduling our meeting to work on it, I told her I “can’t” meet on Tuesday, she understood it as I “won’t” meet on Tuesday and denounced me to the teacher. It took a couple meetings and emails, after I was threatened with a failing grade, for me to understand why she thought I was ditching the work in order to be able to defend against this charge. On the other hand, I had another class that assigned us a project of making a report about a neighborhood in New York to present to the class. I procrastinated and procrastinated because I thought it was a stupid assignment. A week before the end of the semester, I had done one afternoon of “research” in 4 months, but I was glad I didn’t do the work in the end, because the teacher pulled the three Americans aside with a week before presentations, telling us that we were not required to do the assignment, the main assignment of the semester, because it was just a “real world assignment” to help the Asians work on their English in context. I’m in graduate school and literally being given assignments below what I’d been asked to do in 3rd grade. I was glad to be excused from the assignment, however, a refund of the $5000 that course proportionally took from my tuition was not offered to be refunded.

    That was fifteen years ago. I'm still paying the loan. I never went into teaching. I’m glad this is getting more attention.

    I’m betting this woman was one of its graduates:

  70. @poolside
    I can't see the current course being maintained for much longer.

    Graduating without at least some debt is close to impossible, given the expense of even affordable state colleges. And these kids today face a tough job market, with few entry-level positions open to them and horrible pay if they are lucky enough to land a job.

    In fact, salaries today are no better than they were 10-12 years when I was responsible for hiring young graduates. But housing costs are significantly higher, and student loan payments add a big hurdle to moving out and moving on.

    For the smart, hard-working kids, this can all be overcome. But we are sending lots of young people to college who have no business being there, and they are loading themselves down with debt that they will never be able to repay.

    People don’t realize how bad the situation actually is, especially for people drawn to the mid-level regional universities where most Americans attend college. Take, for example, two public regional universities in states with very high average PISA scores relative to other states, Massachusetts (#1 of 50) and Minnesota (#7).

    UMass Dartmouth has a 27 percent 4-year graduation rate.

    St. Cloud State (Minn.) has an 18 percent 4-year graduation rate.

    Their 6-year graduation rates are 47 and 44 percent, respectively.

    Half of the students (most of whom have student loans) never graduate. These two schools alone probably produce 10,000 indebted college drop-outs every year.

    The University of Houston, with a $1.7 billion budget, annually enrolls at least 20,000 new students who will never graduate. Think about what is happening on a national scale.

    • Replies: @bomag
    This point should be broadcast more: a lot of student debt is owed by people with no degree.

    It is bad enough to be out there with a degree and a bunch of debt; the other side are our silent sufferers; our Chinese coal miners: lined up and mowed down.
    , @ATX Hipster
    This is a large part of why so many college kids are Feeling the Bern.
    , @Brutusale
    And UMass Dartmouth, the former Southeastern Massachusetts University now more commonly know as Joker University in honor of former pothead student/surviving Bomb Brother Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, isn't the worst in the system.

    http://collegemeasures.org/4-year_colleges/state/ma/compare-colleges/graduation-rates/

    But unlike most states, flagship public school ZooMass Amherst, isn't even the best school in its town, never mind competing with the likes of Harvard and MIT.
    , @Buffalo Joe
    Sinclair.....But, but, everyone needs to go to college, dontcha know, it's a human right.
  71. @Immigrant from former USSR

    a refund of the $5000 that course proportionally took from my tuition was not offered to be refunded.
     
    And

    I never went into teaching.
     
    I am happy for your potential students of English language,
    which have not materialized.

    They rubbed off on me. Before that course, I was as Shakespeare! I should sue.

  72. @Vinay
    'Ding...already knew half the answers...'His score on that section? A perfect 800, he said.'

    Ding seems like a pretty poor example of the advantages of cheating. Knowing half the answers in advance wouldn't get you anywhere close to an 800 unless you were amazing on the other half. Unless, of course, you knew the answers to the *tougher* half of the exam.

    For that matter, the College Board may well repeat questions from the easier half of the exam -- the questions which are easily answered by the majority of test takers -- without introducing serious measurement error in the higher scores. What really matters is whether they repeat the tougher questions. Maybe they do maybe they don't but that would be worth investigating.

    Ding seems like a pretty poor example of the advantages of cheating. Knowing half the answers in advance wouldn’t get you anywhere close to an 800 unless you were amazing on the other half.

    No but since the test is timed flying right through half the questions gives you twice the time to think about the answers as everybody else on the rest of the test. A lot of SAT questions aren’t really all that difficult you just don’t have the time to mull over the answers to all of them.

  73. I wrote a response: The SAT Is Corrupt: Reuters Version

    Long-time readers know enough to be shocked. I have written TWO posts in TWO days.

    Columbia, I went to a top tier ed school, but I was much luckier than you. My education was actually valuable. That sounds horrible, and I was unaware that Columbia’s Teacher’s College was running the Chinese through their teaching program.

  74. @Anonandon
    You don't really "study" for the SAT, GRE, LSAT, etc. You practice them, as you'd practice learning dance steps or a musical instrument. You keep taking them under real-time conditions, then methodically dissect them afterwards, over and over, until eventually a test that seemed insanely difficult at first can be done almost in your sleep. Takes several months of daily practice to reach that stage, though. But since these tests determine your future, it is time and effort well spent.

    that is studying 🙂 practice is part of studying.

  75. So, not only are they cheating, they’re driving up the price of education.

  76. @OFWHAP
    Oh, I remember this. Whenever you take a standardized test, there's always a disclaimer saying that there are several questions on the test that will not be counted toward your score, but you never know which questions they are. When I was in undergrad, one of my Chinese classmates told us about their cram schools. They're tested so extensively that they get to the point of practically memorizing these tests so that they don't even have to fully read the questions anymore.

    Later on in graduate school, my Chinese classmates had a knack for going online and finding the teachers' manual so that they could copy the solutions for problem sets we had to do or find other people's work so that they could complete their case studies more quickly. I wonder if they really "learn" anything while in school. They're playing on their computers all during class and then completely copy other people's work for homework, projects, etc.

    As for the tuition thing, I know that the University of Georgia had a major preference for out-of-state and international students during the early 2000s. People with 4.0 GPAs from some of Atlanta's good private schools or VA boarding schools couldn't get into UGA, but mediocre students from other states in the southeast had no issue getting in. In fact as a student from GA, it was easier to get into GA Tech than UGA.

    I know that the University of Georgia had a major preference for out-of-state and international students during the early 2000s.

    In ’98 I was a FL resident, scored a 720 on the GMAT, and applied to the University of GA full-time MBA program. They offered my a full-ride tuition scholarship. I suspect that they wanted to boost their incoming GMAT numbers. I ended up going to the UF on a half-tuition scholarship. As a FL resident, my MBA program cost me just $5000 total tuition.

    • Replies: @Immigrant from former USSR
    Dear E. Rekshun:
    I estimate that in 1998 you were about 18 to 20 years young.
    I am glad that (judging by your handle) in your 35
    you are still in good shape. God speed !
    *
    I just looked at the web, and established that
    4-year graduation rates are as follows for those Universities:
    University of Florida (Gainesville): 67 %
    Florida State University (Tallahassee): 61%
    University of Central Florida (Orlando): 40%
    [according to the 2013-2014 University Annual Workplan released in June 2013]
    All 3 universities are public, members of State of Florida University system.
  77. @Grumpy
    People don't realize how bad the situation actually is, especially for people drawn to the mid-level regional universities where most Americans attend college. Take, for example, two public regional universities in states with very high average PISA scores relative to other states, Massachusetts (#1 of 50) and Minnesota (#7).

    UMass Dartmouth has a 27 percent 4-year graduation rate.

    St. Cloud State (Minn.) has an 18 percent 4-year graduation rate.

    Their 6-year graduation rates are 47 and 44 percent, respectively.

    Half of the students (most of whom have student loans) never graduate. These two schools alone probably produce 10,000 indebted college drop-outs every year.

    The University of Houston, with a $1.7 billion budget, annually enrolls at least 20,000 new students who will never graduate. Think about what is happening on a national scale.

    This point should be broadcast more: a lot of student debt is owed by people with no degree.

    It is bad enough to be out there with a degree and a bunch of debt; the other side are our silent sufferers; our Chinese coal miners: lined up and mowed down.

  78. Back in the late ’90s, my MBA class in the traditional 2-year program at the University of Florida was 10% mainland FOB Chinese students + 5% Taiwanese; all early 20s, right out of undergrad w/o work experience. This was the known ratio for every MBA class. They all seemed competent in “statistics” but were abysmal in everything else, including English competency. Never spoke in class and circulated and communicated (in Chinese) only with the other Chinese students. I did sense some tension between the Chinese and Taiwanese students. The American students dreaded working with any of them on a group project. A few other American students and I wondered how they could comprehend the lectures and readings and suspected that they got some “special” tutorials and “assistance” from the administration. All of them desperately wanted to find jobs and stay in the US, preferably in Florida, and willing to accept any wage; driving down salary offers for the rest of us.

    I did, however, get involved in a short fling w/ one of the Taiwanese female students – quite attractive and exotic, and half-way decent English skills. She was an “adventuress” seeking fun and experiences during her stay in America, and ended up marrying a German Deutsche Bank exec.

  79. @The Anti-Gnostic
    Because the number of admissions is finite. For every offspring of some corrupt Han bureaucrat who doesn't speak or write functional English and is a stunted, mediocre rote learner, an American who may be served very well by a college education is bumped.

    There used to be only "exchange students." They send a few here, we send a few there, glorious diversity. Let these countries educate their own people.

    just so you know, I replied but the comment got censored.

  80. Immigrant from former USSR [AKA "Florida Resident"] says:
    @E. Rekshun
    I know that the University of Georgia had a major preference for out-of-state and international students during the early 2000s.

    In '98 I was a FL resident, scored a 720 on the GMAT, and applied to the University of GA full-time MBA program. They offered my a full-ride tuition scholarship. I suspect that they wanted to boost their incoming GMAT numbers. I ended up going to the UF on a half-tuition scholarship. As a FL resident, my MBA program cost me just $5000 total tuition.

    Dear E. Rekshun:
    I estimate that in 1998 you were about 18 to 20 years young.
    I am glad that (judging by your handle) in your 35
    you are still in good shape. God speed !
    *
    I just looked at the web, and established that
    4-year graduation rates are as follows for those Universities:
    University of Florida (Gainesville): 67 %
    Florida State University (Tallahassee): 61%
    University of Central Florida (Orlando): 40%
    [according to the 2013-2014 University Annual Workplan released in June 2013]
    All 3 universities are public, members of State of Florida University system.

    • Replies: @Ivy
    When I first read your comment, I imagined that you were talking about Work Release (like from prison) instead of a Workplan release. The former seems oddly fitting given the low graduation rates and likely debt peonage of the victims, er, students.
    , @Brutusale
    Is it me, FR, or did the state open and expand UCF and USF as finishing schools for the state's vibrants?

    My step-niece, the daughter of my Cuban sister-in-law, got her sociology degree from USF. When I was visiting 2 years ago she told me she was applying to grad schools, which surprised me because she isn't the sharpest tool in the drawer, even for sociology. Dovetailing nicely with a previous comment, she was accepted to UGA.

    Gotta love the check box!
  81. @Anonymous
    I'd guess most of the old people on this site have NO idea what college admissions are like now.


    I know a recent graduate of Brown who was literally valedictorian/2400 SAT.


    She was rejected at ALL of Harvard/Yale/Princeton/Stanford/MIT.

    Her sin? Being a white person from a well-represented area (nice DC suburb).


    When you start counting down from "diversity" admits, legacy admits, wealthy future legacy donors, the politically connected, celebrities, recruited athletes/mathletes/musicians, the international elite, etc. etc. there are just no spots for white kids from good suburbs.

    there are just no spots for white kids from good suburbs.

    How about kids from flyover country? As has been pointed out again and again, being rural, in ROTC, in FFA, or any other “dangerous” markers gets your app tossed out of hand.

  82. Jesus Christ Sailer , I’ve got a heart condition bitch . How many of your “triggering” posts do you think I can take ?

    • Agree: Jack Hanson
  83. @Former Darfur
    Why is it any Chinese have to go to any American schools, except maybe for immersion schooling in American English, or for postgrad study of religion or culture? Are not Chinese capable of teaching other Chinese?

    Exactly.

  84. @keuril
    I doubt the SAT corruption in China and Korea has a big impact on US students. First, selective schools have a predetermined percentage of international students, usually about 10 percent. And of this number, the percentage from China is rather small. For example, out of approximately 6700 undergrads at Harvard, only 45 are Chinese nationals. About 11 a year, for a country of 1.3 billion. About the same percentage of camels can pass through the eye of a needle. It is much, much harder as a Chinese or Korean to get into the most selective US schools than it is for Americans. For the very top schools, admission from China will be determined not by standardized test scores, but by other factors, such as getting an International Math Olympiad gold medal or being the President’s daughter.

    It seems very high English scores on standardized tests taken in China and Korea are viewed quite skeptically in US admission offices. The student mentioned in the article who got an 800 on the SAT Critical Reading section is a student, where? At UCLA. UCLA has an average Critical Reading score of only 637, and the 75th percentile is at just 710. An 800 Critical Reading score for an American, combined with a similar score on the math and excellent grades, is enough to be at least in the running for the Ivy League, and gives you pretty good odds at the top Liberal Arts Colleges and the better National Universities (places like Duke and Northwestern).

    But people with these perfect scores from China mainly end up going to significantly less selective schools. UCLA is a pretty good consolation prize, of course, so it's likely Ding had some other things going for him besides high scores. There could be other Chinese with 800 CRs going to San Diego State.

    At the end of the day, Chinese who game the SAT are competing against other Chinese students for the few available Chinese slots. They are not taking American seats.

    ” UCLA is a pretty good consolation prize,”

    You mean the University of Caucasian Loathing Assholes.

    Even the “American”students are getting to be less and less white.

  85. @Immigrant from former USSR
    Dear E. Rekshun:
    I estimate that in 1998 you were about 18 to 20 years young.
    I am glad that (judging by your handle) in your 35
    you are still in good shape. God speed !
    *
    I just looked at the web, and established that
    4-year graduation rates are as follows for those Universities:
    University of Florida (Gainesville): 67 %
    Florida State University (Tallahassee): 61%
    University of Central Florida (Orlando): 40%
    [according to the 2013-2014 University Annual Workplan released in June 2013]
    All 3 universities are public, members of State of Florida University system.

    When I first read your comment, I imagined that you were talking about Work Release (like from prison) instead of a Workplan release. The former seems oddly fitting given the low graduation rates and likely debt peonage of the victims, er, students.

    • Replies: @Immigrant from former USSR
    Hello, dear Ivy.
    "released" in my comment is past tense of the verb "to release",
    not the noun "release".
    I copied the formula
    [according to the 2013-2014 University Annual Workplan released in June 2013]
    (which I do not quite understand myself) from web.
  86. Yeah. My father teaches in a state university. They actively recruited international students because out of staters pay more. Not regarded as a secret. I don’t know about Chinese, but many professors were happy with other east Asian recruits because they are responsible… a welcome break from NAMs, although this is never stated..

  87. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @peterike
    Would just shifting the tests -- give it in Asia first, then in the US -- solve a lot of this problem?

    But I agree with others. Nobody wants this solved. Between those in academia who just want the money, and those who are Tru Believers in the multi-cult (which is many, many, many of them), there is simply no constituency for fixing this problem.

    What, American whites who routinely get screwed? They can't even figure out they should vote for Trump.

    What, American whites who routinely get screwed? They can’t even figure out they should vote for Trump.

    Yep, they’re getting royally screwed yet are passionate about electing some creep who will flush them down the toilet for the almighty yen and peso. Still, they support this creep because “he’s a Constitutional conservative”. Maybe the coastal elites are on to something when they disparage flyover country? Like Wisconsin, with its cheesetard governor who was kicked out of Marquette for not being able to maintain a 2.0 GPA.

  88. @Ivy
    When I first read your comment, I imagined that you were talking about Work Release (like from prison) instead of a Workplan release. The former seems oddly fitting given the low graduation rates and likely debt peonage of the victims, er, students.

    Hello, dear Ivy.
    “released” in my comment is past tense of the verb “to release”,
    not the noun “release”.
    I copied the formula
    [according to the 2013-2014 University Annual Workplan released in June 2013]
    (which I do not quite understand myself) from web.

    • Replies: @Ivy
    Artistic license, not delving into proper usage, was the impetus for my non-critical observation.
  89. @Immigrant from former USSR
    Hello, dear Ivy.
    "released" in my comment is past tense of the verb "to release",
    not the noun "release".
    I copied the formula
    [according to the 2013-2014 University Annual Workplan released in June 2013]
    (which I do not quite understand myself) from web.

    Artistic license, not delving into proper usage, was the impetus for my non-critical observation.

  90. @Anonandon
    You don't really "study" for the SAT, GRE, LSAT, etc. You practice them, as you'd practice learning dance steps or a musical instrument. You keep taking them under real-time conditions, then methodically dissect them afterwards, over and over, until eventually a test that seemed insanely difficult at first can be done almost in your sleep. Takes several months of daily practice to reach that stage, though. But since these tests determine your future, it is time and effort well spent.

    It really depends on how smart you are. If you are already in a STEM program and are really good at math, then the math on the GRE is really not that difficult and you might not have to study for it at all. On the other hand, if you are not that bright, you could take a million practice tests and still not do well. In the end, these tests are heavily “g loaded” – in other words they are IQ tests in disguise. Not that there is anything wrong with that – IQ is a strong predictor of how well you will do in any academic program.

    • Replies: @grind
    Disagree. My friend was a math whiz, took the GRE and LSAT with very little prep, scored in the 99th percentile on both. I, however, am no math whiz, but I prepped my ass off for both tests and ended up scoring the same as he did. These tests are not as g-loaded as you think. Serious prepping makes a difference.
  91. iSteveFan says:

    OK so American Universities want the Chinese and Koreans because they can charge them full out-of-state tuition and that helps their bottom line. But why exactly do the Chinese and Koreans wish to go to non-elite American schools who still charge outrageous fees? It’s one thing to be accepted into Harvard or Stanford. But why do they pay these rates to attend State U?

    Aren’t there quite a lot of outstanding schools in Korea and China? After all they have a huge talent pool that typically ranks near the top on world IQ rankings. Shouldn’t they be able to turn their universities into powerhouses? Look at what a bunch of Jewish students did for City College back in the day. You’d think all those high IQ Chinese, Koreans and Indians would do the same with their own local schools.

    I don’t get why they want to come to mid level US schools, unless their only reason is to try to stay inside the US upon graduation. But even so you would think living standards are going up in those nations and many jobs are located there. Seems to me that there would be a lot of opportunity on their home turf.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Doesn't China have Harvards?
    Short answer no.
    Consider that culturally similar Europeans have a relatively few great universities per country and many still compete to come to our Ivies.
    I'll try to dig it up but I have heard from people that went, Chinese top level university programs are wildly uneven and none would beat our mid-level or better schools in a thorough comparison.
    I've been trying to vaguely advise this Chinese nurse in Vancouver who complains about how hard it is to get work. She explains everything in terms of evil white patriarchy, so I flatter myself that I have at least made a dent in that. In East Asia, your school class is your social class. A Tokyo U or Tsinghua grad doesn't need to sell himself. Top grades at a top school obviate the interview over there. Then those people come here, where hiring someone is like buying a car, the one time Gentiles haggle. Mysterious unwritten rules and forbidden-yet-required tests like knowing what people are paid (but you are not allowed to ask them), none of which were covered in school.
    I tried to post this earlier in another discussion and failed, forgive me if I'm repeating myself here, but:
    I completely enraged a Chinese recent arrival by asking what I thought was a simple critical thinking question, which he considered to be Not Cricket. Guy was smart too, but ask him to look at the subject matter perpendicularly and his response was pain and anger.
  92. Chinese universities are intensely competitive, and the gaokao isn’t one test. It’s much harder, and the scores are much higher, if you’re out in the provinces.

    What you probably don’t know about the gaokao

  93. @Warner
    Story time. Right after college graduation, I foolishly signed up for a Master’s Degree at Columbia in Teaching English as a Second Language. It barely qualifies you any better than a 6-week certificate but comes with a $40k price tag. I had been quite unimpressed with my undergrad state school education but hoped I’d at last be getting cutting-edge linguistic education from a top school that might lead to a worthy career in a field I enjoyed. I was very surprised in my first week to discover that in every class I was one of two to four native English speakers in class sizes of 12 to 35. The rest were almost exclusively Asian, mostly Korean.

    Being 22, I complained to my parents that school was a waste of time. The teachers actually had to slow down to teach basic grammatical concepts to these foreigners. They were not just an Asian elite of talented English speakers. Some were good enough that they could speak in well thought-out sentences. Others were good enough to order a meal in English, but no better. My parents did not believe me. Finally, my mom was visiting New York and I took her to class. She was flabbergasted that Asian kids were shooting their hands up to ask the teacher to repeat words they didn’t know. And that the class was retardedly slow so that the Asians could understand the lesson and mark notes down since they would have had trouble understanding the concepts without excessive re-study.

    I thought it was just bad luck. I didn’t have worldly knowledge at the time, it took me a few months to realize that the reason they were there was to fill the school’s coffers with $40k a pop, sometimes $80k because it took them two years to do what I did in one year. They were actually, I learned, spending their first semester taking several classes in REMEDIAL English, while they were at the same time getting an advanced degree in teaching it. Nevertheless, they could go back to Korea and make good money as top English teachers with a degree from a top U.S. school. Meanwhile, I actually had problems like defending myself to a teacher when a goody two-shoes Asian kid complained that I “refused” to work on a group project with the others. In fact, when we were scheduling our meeting to work on it, I told her I “can’t” meet on Tuesday, she understood it as I “won’t” meet on Tuesday and denounced me to the teacher. It took a couple meetings and emails, after I was threatened with a failing grade, for me to understand why she thought I was ditching the work in order to be able to defend against this charge. On the other hand, I had another class that assigned us a project of making a report about a neighborhood in New York to present to the class. I procrastinated and procrastinated because I thought it was a stupid assignment. A week before the end of the semester, I had done one afternoon of “research” in 4 months, but I was glad I didn’t do the work in the end, because the teacher pulled the three Americans aside with a week before presentations, telling us that we were not required to do the assignment, the main assignment of the semester, because it was just a “real world assignment” to help the Asians work on their English in context. I’m in graduate school and literally being given assignments below what I’d been asked to do in 3rd grade. I was glad to be excused from the assignment, however, a refund of the $5000 that course proportionally took from my tuition was not offered to be refunded.

    That was fifteen years ago. I'm still paying the loan. I never went into teaching. I’m glad this is getting more attention.

    One of the online university course sites (Coursera or EDX) is now offering ESL credential certificates. Entire sequence will set you back a few hundred dollars.

  94. @Anonymous
    I'd guess most of the old people on this site have NO idea what college admissions are like now.


    I know a recent graduate of Brown who was literally valedictorian/2400 SAT.


    She was rejected at ALL of Harvard/Yale/Princeton/Stanford/MIT.

    Her sin? Being a white person from a well-represented area (nice DC suburb).


    When you start counting down from "diversity" admits, legacy admits, wealthy future legacy donors, the politically connected, celebrities, recruited athletes/mathletes/musicians, the international elite, etc. etc. there are just no spots for white kids from good suburbs.

    Getting to go to an Ivy anyway means it’s not actually a problem for UMC whites, doesn’t it.

    As others are noting, this is more a problem for the leg-up lower-MC kids who can’t get into state schools that would have previously admitted them because those schools are busy scooping up international students and their tuition checks.

  95. @Anonymous
    I'd guess most of the old people on this site have NO idea what college admissions are like now.


    I know a recent graduate of Brown who was literally valedictorian/2400 SAT.


    She was rejected at ALL of Harvard/Yale/Princeton/Stanford/MIT.

    Her sin? Being a white person from a well-represented area (nice DC suburb).


    When you start counting down from "diversity" admits, legacy admits, wealthy future legacy donors, the politically connected, celebrities, recruited athletes/mathletes/musicians, the international elite, etc. etc. there are just no spots for white kids from good suburbs.

    Getting to go to an Ivy anyway means it’s not actually a problem for UMC whites, doesn’t it.

    As others are noting, this is more a problem for the leg-up lower-MC kids who can’t get into state schools that would have previously admitted them because those schools are busy scooping up international students and their tuition checks.

  96. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Former Darfur
    Why is it any Chinese have to go to any American schools, except maybe for immersion schooling in American English, or for postgrad study of religion or culture? Are not Chinese capable of teaching other Chinese?

    You should ask the American schools, which clearly seek to have certain percentages of their student populations to be filled with Asians and international students and recruit accordingly.

    Outside of nationalistic regimes in which they’re controlled heavily by the state, universities tend not to be very nationalistic culturally, in addition to the monetary incentives for foreign students. So steering universities in that direction will probably require public policy.

  97. @Former Darfur
    Why is it any Chinese have to go to any American schools, except maybe for immersion schooling in American English, or for postgrad study of religion or culture? Are not Chinese capable of teaching other Chinese?

    Well you get 3 years of Automatic H1B visa working for far more than most chinese could get in China. That will most likely lead to a permanent job. So the gov’t is allowing schools to sell backdoor citizenship. I think private schools should be able to offer admission to whomever they please, but not citizenship. I think because of the rigid chinese exam system there are a lot of Chinese kids who can go to more prestigious schools here than there. Especially with the cheating.

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    Not only that but Obama just raised the time for the OPT program from 17 months to 3 years. You don't pay payroll taxes on OPT. Three years there and three on an H-1B.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optional_Practical_Training
  98. @Anoni
    Well you get 3 years of Automatic H1B visa working for far more than most chinese could get in China. That will most likely lead to a permanent job. So the gov't is allowing schools to sell backdoor citizenship. I think private schools should be able to offer admission to whomever they please, but not citizenship. I think because of the rigid chinese exam system there are a lot of Chinese kids who can go to more prestigious schools here than there. Especially with the cheating.

    Not only that but Obama just raised the time for the OPT program from 17 months to 3 years. You don’t pay payroll taxes on OPT. Three years there and three on an H-1B.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optional_Practical_Training

  99. @Jack D
    It really depends on how smart you are. If you are already in a STEM program and are really good at math, then the math on the GRE is really not that difficult and you might not have to study for it at all. On the other hand, if you are not that bright, you could take a million practice tests and still not do well. In the end, these tests are heavily "g loaded" - in other words they are IQ tests in disguise. Not that there is anything wrong with that - IQ is a strong predictor of how well you will do in any academic program.

    Disagree. My friend was a math whiz, took the GRE and LSAT with very little prep, scored in the 99th percentile on both. I, however, am no math whiz, but I prepped my ass off for both tests and ended up scoring the same as he did. These tests are not as g-loaded as you think. Serious prepping makes a difference.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    I think you are underestimating how smart you are. If you are aiming for a 99th percentile score, if you have a 150 IQ and a math background to start with, then you can just walk in and take it cold, as your friend did. If you have, say , a 120 IQ, then you can still achieve that score with extensive prep as you did. If you have a 100 IQ, then what I said before applies - no amount of study is going to get you the top score. (These are not precise #'s, just ballpark estimates). Unless you are like your friend and already ceilinged, then prepping is going to raise your score somewhat (up to a maximum of maybe 10 or 20 percentile points), but no amount of prep is going to turn straw into gold.

    IQ has a lot to do with processing speed and the timed nature of the tests put a premium on speed. The math is not that hard and if you gave someone well prepped and with a 100 IQ all day to take the test they could answer (almost) every question. You would have to train them really hard not to fall for the distractor (the answer that seems to be right but isn't). But when you give them only a minute or 2 per problem, even if they have prepped, the task becomes insurmountable - they just can't do the necessary calculations fast enough to answer every question.
  100. @iSteveFan
    OK so American Universities want the Chinese and Koreans because they can charge them full out-of-state tuition and that helps their bottom line. But why exactly do the Chinese and Koreans wish to go to non-elite American schools who still charge outrageous fees? It's one thing to be accepted into Harvard or Stanford. But why do they pay these rates to attend State U?

    Aren't there quite a lot of outstanding schools in Korea and China? After all they have a huge talent pool that typically ranks near the top on world IQ rankings. Shouldn't they be able to turn their universities into powerhouses? Look at what a bunch of Jewish students did for City College back in the day. You'd think all those high IQ Chinese, Koreans and Indians would do the same with their own local schools.

    I don't get why they want to come to mid level US schools, unless their only reason is to try to stay inside the US upon graduation. But even so you would think living standards are going up in those nations and many jobs are located there. Seems to me that there would be a lot of opportunity on their home turf.

    Doesn’t China have Harvards?
    Short answer no.
    Consider that culturally similar Europeans have a relatively few great universities per country and many still compete to come to our Ivies.
    I’ll try to dig it up but I have heard from people that went, Chinese top level university programs are wildly uneven and none would beat our mid-level or better schools in a thorough comparison.
    I’ve been trying to vaguely advise this Chinese nurse in Vancouver who complains about how hard it is to get work. She explains everything in terms of evil white patriarchy, so I flatter myself that I have at least made a dent in that. In East Asia, your school class is your social class. A Tokyo U or Tsinghua grad doesn’t need to sell himself. Top grades at a top school obviate the interview over there. Then those people come here, where hiring someone is like buying a car, the one time Gentiles haggle. Mysterious unwritten rules and forbidden-yet-required tests like knowing what people are paid (but you are not allowed to ask them), none of which were covered in school.
    I tried to post this earlier in another discussion and failed, forgive me if I’m repeating myself here, but:
    I completely enraged a Chinese recent arrival by asking what I thought was a simple critical thinking question, which he considered to be Not Cricket. Guy was smart too, but ask him to look at the subject matter perpendicularly and his response was pain and anger.

    • Replies: @grind
    I spent a year at what was considered a very respectable Japanese university. I was shocked at how bad it was. Comparing it to a junior college in the US would be an insult to the junior college. It was literally more like a junior high school.
  101. @J.Ross
    Doesn't China have Harvards?
    Short answer no.
    Consider that culturally similar Europeans have a relatively few great universities per country and many still compete to come to our Ivies.
    I'll try to dig it up but I have heard from people that went, Chinese top level university programs are wildly uneven and none would beat our mid-level or better schools in a thorough comparison.
    I've been trying to vaguely advise this Chinese nurse in Vancouver who complains about how hard it is to get work. She explains everything in terms of evil white patriarchy, so I flatter myself that I have at least made a dent in that. In East Asia, your school class is your social class. A Tokyo U or Tsinghua grad doesn't need to sell himself. Top grades at a top school obviate the interview over there. Then those people come here, where hiring someone is like buying a car, the one time Gentiles haggle. Mysterious unwritten rules and forbidden-yet-required tests like knowing what people are paid (but you are not allowed to ask them), none of which were covered in school.
    I tried to post this earlier in another discussion and failed, forgive me if I'm repeating myself here, but:
    I completely enraged a Chinese recent arrival by asking what I thought was a simple critical thinking question, which he considered to be Not Cricket. Guy was smart too, but ask him to look at the subject matter perpendicularly and his response was pain and anger.

    I spent a year at what was considered a very respectable Japanese university. I was shocked at how bad it was. Comparing it to a junior college in the US would be an insult to the junior college. It was literally more like a junior high school.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Grind, last year , at my high school's 50th reunion, I learned that one of my class mates was teaching math at a Japanese university or college. He had no qualifications other than an ability to speak Japanese and whatever math courses he took in HS and college. He was not a math major.
  102. @Grumpy
    People don't realize how bad the situation actually is, especially for people drawn to the mid-level regional universities where most Americans attend college. Take, for example, two public regional universities in states with very high average PISA scores relative to other states, Massachusetts (#1 of 50) and Minnesota (#7).

    UMass Dartmouth has a 27 percent 4-year graduation rate.

    St. Cloud State (Minn.) has an 18 percent 4-year graduation rate.

    Their 6-year graduation rates are 47 and 44 percent, respectively.

    Half of the students (most of whom have student loans) never graduate. These two schools alone probably produce 10,000 indebted college drop-outs every year.

    The University of Houston, with a $1.7 billion budget, annually enrolls at least 20,000 new students who will never graduate. Think about what is happening on a national scale.

    This is a large part of why so many college kids are Feeling the Bern.

  103. @Vinay
    'Ding...already knew half the answers...'His score on that section? A perfect 800, he said.'

    Ding seems like a pretty poor example of the advantages of cheating. Knowing half the answers in advance wouldn't get you anywhere close to an 800 unless you were amazing on the other half. Unless, of course, you knew the answers to the *tougher* half of the exam.

    For that matter, the College Board may well repeat questions from the easier half of the exam -- the questions which are easily answered by the majority of test takers -- without introducing serious measurement error in the higher scores. What really matters is whether they repeat the tougher questions. Maybe they do maybe they don't but that would be worth investigating.

    I’m not following you. 800 is only half the test; a perfect score on the whole test is 1600. So, to know half the answers seems like a truism that they would get a perfect 800 on that portion of the overall test.

  104. Yes. Academia has become just another scam.

    Once you no longer have a tipping point percentage of people with the commonweal gene in charge then everything will rot and decay.

  105. @Grumpy
    People don't realize how bad the situation actually is, especially for people drawn to the mid-level regional universities where most Americans attend college. Take, for example, two public regional universities in states with very high average PISA scores relative to other states, Massachusetts (#1 of 50) and Minnesota (#7).

    UMass Dartmouth has a 27 percent 4-year graduation rate.

    St. Cloud State (Minn.) has an 18 percent 4-year graduation rate.

    Their 6-year graduation rates are 47 and 44 percent, respectively.

    Half of the students (most of whom have student loans) never graduate. These two schools alone probably produce 10,000 indebted college drop-outs every year.

    The University of Houston, with a $1.7 billion budget, annually enrolls at least 20,000 new students who will never graduate. Think about what is happening on a national scale.

    And UMass Dartmouth, the former Southeastern Massachusetts University now more commonly know as Joker University in honor of former pothead student/surviving Bomb Brother Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, isn’t the worst in the system.

    http://collegemeasures.org/4-year_colleges/state/ma/compare-colleges/graduation-rates/

    But unlike most states, flagship public school ZooMass Amherst, isn’t even the best school in its town, never mind competing with the likes of Harvard and MIT.

  106. @Immigrant from former USSR
    Dear E. Rekshun:
    I estimate that in 1998 you were about 18 to 20 years young.
    I am glad that (judging by your handle) in your 35
    you are still in good shape. God speed !
    *
    I just looked at the web, and established that
    4-year graduation rates are as follows for those Universities:
    University of Florida (Gainesville): 67 %
    Florida State University (Tallahassee): 61%
    University of Central Florida (Orlando): 40%
    [according to the 2013-2014 University Annual Workplan released in June 2013]
    All 3 universities are public, members of State of Florida University system.

    Is it me, FR, or did the state open and expand UCF and USF as finishing schools for the state’s vibrants?

    My step-niece, the daughter of my Cuban sister-in-law, got her sociology degree from USF. When I was visiting 2 years ago she told me she was applying to grad schools, which surprised me because she isn’t the sharpest tool in the drawer, even for sociology. Dovetailing nicely with a previous comment, she was accepted to UGA.

    Gotta love the check box!

    • Replies: @Immigrant from former USSR
    Dear Brutusale:

    State of Florida demographics:
    Race***************Population***************% of Total
    Total Population****18,801,310************** 100
    White***************14,109,162************** 75
    Hispanic or Latino***4,223,800************** 22
    Apparently some Latino are entered into "white" or"black" categories.
    Black or African American*****2,999,860***** 15
    *
    UCF (Orlando)
    Diverse Student Population Shown by Percentages
    Hispanic***************** 21.6%
    African-American******** 10.5%
    Asian and Pacific Islander* 5.7%
    Multiracial**************** 3%
    The remaining * 60%*apparently are* white.
    *
    So, not much different from State of Florida as a whole.

  107. @Immigrant from former USSR
    Esteemed Anonymous from comment #60:
    I am interested to learn, what was that lady's major in Brown ?
    And what is she doing after graduation ?
    My interest is sincere, without hidden attempt of "gotcha".

    Computer science. Working for a major security clearance type contractor.

    • Replies: @Immigrant from former USSR
    Thank you. My great respect and best wishes to that lady.
  108. Immigrant from former USSR [AKA "Florida Resident"] says:
    @Brutusale
    Is it me, FR, or did the state open and expand UCF and USF as finishing schools for the state's vibrants?

    My step-niece, the daughter of my Cuban sister-in-law, got her sociology degree from USF. When I was visiting 2 years ago she told me she was applying to grad schools, which surprised me because she isn't the sharpest tool in the drawer, even for sociology. Dovetailing nicely with a previous comment, she was accepted to UGA.

    Gotta love the check box!

    Dear Brutusale:

    State of Florida demographics:
    Race***************Population***************% of Total
    Total Population****18,801,310************** 100
    White***************14,109,162************** 75
    Hispanic or Latino***4,223,800************** 22
    Apparently some Latino are entered into “white” or”black” categories.
    Black or African American*****2,999,860***** 15
    *
    UCF (Orlando)
    Diverse Student Population Shown by Percentages
    Hispanic***************** 21.6%
    African-American******** 10.5%
    Asian and Pacific Islander* 5.7%
    Multiracial**************** 3%
    The remaining * 60%*apparently are* white.
    *
    So, not much different from State of Florida as a whole.

  109. @Anonymous
    Computer science. Working for a major security clearance type contractor.

    Thank you. My great respect and best wishes to that lady.

  110. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Warner
    Story time. Right after college graduation, I foolishly signed up for a Master’s Degree at Columbia in Teaching English as a Second Language. It barely qualifies you any better than a 6-week certificate but comes with a $40k price tag. I had been quite unimpressed with my undergrad state school education but hoped I’d at last be getting cutting-edge linguistic education from a top school that might lead to a worthy career in a field I enjoyed. I was very surprised in my first week to discover that in every class I was one of two to four native English speakers in class sizes of 12 to 35. The rest were almost exclusively Asian, mostly Korean.

    Being 22, I complained to my parents that school was a waste of time. The teachers actually had to slow down to teach basic grammatical concepts to these foreigners. They were not just an Asian elite of talented English speakers. Some were good enough that they could speak in well thought-out sentences. Others were good enough to order a meal in English, but no better. My parents did not believe me. Finally, my mom was visiting New York and I took her to class. She was flabbergasted that Asian kids were shooting their hands up to ask the teacher to repeat words they didn’t know. And that the class was retardedly slow so that the Asians could understand the lesson and mark notes down since they would have had trouble understanding the concepts without excessive re-study.

    I thought it was just bad luck. I didn’t have worldly knowledge at the time, it took me a few months to realize that the reason they were there was to fill the school’s coffers with $40k a pop, sometimes $80k because it took them two years to do what I did in one year. They were actually, I learned, spending their first semester taking several classes in REMEDIAL English, while they were at the same time getting an advanced degree in teaching it. Nevertheless, they could go back to Korea and make good money as top English teachers with a degree from a top U.S. school. Meanwhile, I actually had problems like defending myself to a teacher when a goody two-shoes Asian kid complained that I “refused” to work on a group project with the others. In fact, when we were scheduling our meeting to work on it, I told her I “can’t” meet on Tuesday, she understood it as I “won’t” meet on Tuesday and denounced me to the teacher. It took a couple meetings and emails, after I was threatened with a failing grade, for me to understand why she thought I was ditching the work in order to be able to defend against this charge. On the other hand, I had another class that assigned us a project of making a report about a neighborhood in New York to present to the class. I procrastinated and procrastinated because I thought it was a stupid assignment. A week before the end of the semester, I had done one afternoon of “research” in 4 months, but I was glad I didn’t do the work in the end, because the teacher pulled the three Americans aside with a week before presentations, telling us that we were not required to do the assignment, the main assignment of the semester, because it was just a “real world assignment” to help the Asians work on their English in context. I’m in graduate school and literally being given assignments below what I’d been asked to do in 3rd grade. I was glad to be excused from the assignment, however, a refund of the $5000 that course proportionally took from my tuition was not offered to be refunded.

    That was fifteen years ago. I'm still paying the loan. I never went into teaching. I’m glad this is getting more attention.

    Columbia’s Teachers College is practically a diploma mill.

    Some claimed my “legacy” status was a factor. This critique hurt me the most, even though it isn’t entirely applicable in my case. My parents are graduates of Teachers College, and the Office of Undergraduate Admissions defines “legacies” solely as the children of Columbia College and School of Engineering and Applied Science graduates. I don’t meet these criteria, but the office also notes that being the child of a Columbia University graduate from any school or college “may be a slight advantage in the admission process.”

    http://columbiaspectator.com/opinion/2016/03/21/legacy-status-not-leg-0

  111. @Mark2
    Indeed, which is why I lack much respect for the "successful" by default.

    Brilliant point. For decades we heard right wing talking points about jealousy and envy. But in today’s rent-seeking culture, there are more people making a living off of scams than not. You’re naive if you think the average guy with wealth earned it the old fashioned way. Cf. The entire finance industry.

  112. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    I cheated thrice in my life in school. Once in first grade looking at the math paper of another student. Another in tenth grade on a geometry test.

    The third time in college on the final of an upper-level microeconomic theory test. I CLEPed out of Econ 1&2 and I need an upper level course to satisfy some social science requirement. I went to a large, somewhat prestigious state university. On the first day of this microecon theory class the professor said we didn’t need to come to class. We can just take the midterm and final and get the average of those two exams. Or, we could just show up for the final. I planned to take the midterm. But when I opened the textbook for the first time a few days before the exam I was stopped dead in my tracks by partial derivatives, integrals, etc. I was a philosophy major with no math skills above arithmetic. I freaked and didn’t show up for the midterm. A few weeks after the midterm I went to the class before it started and talked with some guys in it. They told me the test was very hard and only 3 people got A’s. Then they told me the professor had a copy of the exam at the library with the correct answers/solution. I can’t recall if I photocopied or transcribed that professor’s copy. But I then studied that exam thoroughly– questions and answers– looking for patterns. I found them. I sat for the final and scored the highest grade I saw posted on the exam results outside the professor’s office. That was 20 years ago and I still have guilt over it. I sometimes will have a bad dream where I fail this class after having forgotten to attend it and I can’t graduate.

  113. @grind
    Disagree. My friend was a math whiz, took the GRE and LSAT with very little prep, scored in the 99th percentile on both. I, however, am no math whiz, but I prepped my ass off for both tests and ended up scoring the same as he did. These tests are not as g-loaded as you think. Serious prepping makes a difference.

    I think you are underestimating how smart you are. If you are aiming for a 99th percentile score, if you have a 150 IQ and a math background to start with, then you can just walk in and take it cold, as your friend did. If you have, say , a 120 IQ, then you can still achieve that score with extensive prep as you did. If you have a 100 IQ, then what I said before applies – no amount of study is going to get you the top score. (These are not precise #’s, just ballpark estimates). Unless you are like your friend and already ceilinged, then prepping is going to raise your score somewhat (up to a maximum of maybe 10 or 20 percentile points), but no amount of prep is going to turn straw into gold.

    IQ has a lot to do with processing speed and the timed nature of the tests put a premium on speed. The math is not that hard and if you gave someone well prepped and with a 100 IQ all day to take the test they could answer (almost) every question. You would have to train them really hard not to fall for the distractor (the answer that seems to be right but isn’t). But when you give them only a minute or 2 per problem, even if they have prepped, the task becomes insurmountable – they just can’t do the necessary calculations fast enough to answer every question.

    • Replies: @grind
    I scored around the 68th percentile on my first practice tests. As I said before, prepping works. But only if you are serious about it and put in a lot of work over a long enough time period.
  114. @Jack D
    I think you are underestimating how smart you are. If you are aiming for a 99th percentile score, if you have a 150 IQ and a math background to start with, then you can just walk in and take it cold, as your friend did. If you have, say , a 120 IQ, then you can still achieve that score with extensive prep as you did. If you have a 100 IQ, then what I said before applies - no amount of study is going to get you the top score. (These are not precise #'s, just ballpark estimates). Unless you are like your friend and already ceilinged, then prepping is going to raise your score somewhat (up to a maximum of maybe 10 or 20 percentile points), but no amount of prep is going to turn straw into gold.

    IQ has a lot to do with processing speed and the timed nature of the tests put a premium on speed. The math is not that hard and if you gave someone well prepped and with a 100 IQ all day to take the test they could answer (almost) every question. You would have to train them really hard not to fall for the distractor (the answer that seems to be right but isn't). But when you give them only a minute or 2 per problem, even if they have prepped, the task becomes insurmountable - they just can't do the necessary calculations fast enough to answer every question.

    I scored around the 68th percentile on my first practice tests. As I said before, prepping works. But only if you are serious about it and put in a lot of work over a long enough time period.

  115. DWB says: • Website
    @yaqub the mad scientist
    UC system admits that bringing in more foreigners help balance budget shortfalls:
    "The audit's conclusions were denounced by UC President Janet Napolitano. She said that an unprecedented cut in state support for the 10-campus system prompted the effort to recruit more nonresident students, who pay higher tuition.

    "To suggest from the outset that UC decisions regarding admissions were designed to 'disadvantage Californians,' as opposed to mitigate the impact of a 33% budget cut, is a rush to judgment that is both unfair and unwarranted," she said in a March 8 letter included in the audit.

    UC officials insist that nonresident students don’t displace Californians. Instead, they say, the $23,000 in additional tuition that nonresidents pay each year has allowed UC to enroll thousands more California students than the system could otherwise afford.

    Without the extra money from out-of-state students, Californians could have faced an additional $2,500 in tuition — a 20% boost, Napolitano said. Tuition and fees have doubled since the 2008 recession, but have stayed flat — except for one fee increase — since 2011-12 as part of an agreement between Napolitano and Gov. Jerry Brown for more than $3 billion in new dollars over four years."

    This was the top story on the local news last night – that UC (and especially, the top UCs) are quietly letting in less-qualified non-resident students to get the extra out of state tuition.

    Curiously, the implication in the KTVU story was that Berkeley (the closest campus) is filled with students from Oregon and Illinois, ignoring the question of how many foreign students are on campus.

    Here are some data from the UC registrar:

    http://admissions.berkeley.edu/studentprofile

    About 9% of the students admitted (matriculated not in the report) were “international.” “Out of state,” presumably Americans from other states, were roughly double that (17%).

    Looking at the GPAs and SAT scores, the foreign admits are numerically inferior on both (GPA 3.91 vs. 3.92, SAT 2124 vs 2171).

    I would have expected that the argument for foreign students would be that they are exceptional and thus add to the campus – that they are at BEST equivalent to Americans from other states sort of belies the point.

    From another source: (http://internationaloffice.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/shared/docs/student-stats-fall14.pdf)

    the overwhelming majority of these international students are from the far east (72%), mainly China (about half of all foreign undergrads – 1237 of 2573). That doesn’t include the 152 from Hong Kong (technically, a semi-autonomous region of China), 17 from Macau (ditto) or the 72 from Taiwan.

    I suspect that if Berkeley were really interested in having the campus be more “diverse,” they would not admit so many people from the PRC.

  116. University of California admits nonresidents on lower standards. President Janet Napolitano (remember her?) denies it.

    http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_29699081/audit-university-california-undermines-resident-students

  117. @Grumpy
    People don't realize how bad the situation actually is, especially for people drawn to the mid-level regional universities where most Americans attend college. Take, for example, two public regional universities in states with very high average PISA scores relative to other states, Massachusetts (#1 of 50) and Minnesota (#7).

    UMass Dartmouth has a 27 percent 4-year graduation rate.

    St. Cloud State (Minn.) has an 18 percent 4-year graduation rate.

    Their 6-year graduation rates are 47 and 44 percent, respectively.

    Half of the students (most of whom have student loans) never graduate. These two schools alone probably produce 10,000 indebted college drop-outs every year.

    The University of Houston, with a $1.7 billion budget, annually enrolls at least 20,000 new students who will never graduate. Think about what is happening on a national scale.

    Sinclair…..But, but, everyone needs to go to college, dontcha know, it’s a human right.

  118. @grind
    I spent a year at what was considered a very respectable Japanese university. I was shocked at how bad it was. Comparing it to a junior college in the US would be an insult to the junior college. It was literally more like a junior high school.

    Grind, last year , at my high school’s 50th reunion, I learned that one of my class mates was teaching math at a Japanese university or college. He had no qualifications other than an ability to speak Japanese and whatever math courses he took in HS and college. He was not a math major.

    • Replies: @grind
    That doesn't surprise me at all. It's not just gaijin goldbrickers, either. All but one of my professors was Japanese, and only one of those Japanese professors was any good (he was upper class, a descendant of samurai, Ivy-educated, tough as nails, and refreshingly outspoken and logical). The Japanese do not take university seriously. The hard part is getting into university. Once there, your ticket is punched, so the Japanese students will use that time to drink and party, a four-year respite between the dreary grind of cram schools and the dreary grind of life as a sarariman. Since no one expects the students at universities to do any work, no one expects the professors to actually teach...and for the most part, they don't.
  119. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    A very large percentage of colleges are in financial straits:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3515947/Growing-number-small-colleges-struggling-stay-afloat.html

    The Wall Street rating agency Moody’s predicts the number of four-year, nonprofit colleges closing annually will triple in the next few years
    Moody’s also predicts mergers will more than double
    Between 2004 and 2014, the nation averaged about five closings and two to three mergers per year, the agency said
    An analysis of hundreds of colleges and universities released in 2014 by found that 43 per cent were on an ‘unsustainable financial path’

    Presumably many private colleges have an incentive to seek tuition paying foreign students, but apparently state universities do this as well? Aren’t state universities in better financial shape?

    • Replies: @E. Rekshun
    I suspect that more than a few of the financially-troubled schools are HBCUs. And I suspect that the federal government will bail them out.
  120. @Anonymous
    A very large percentage of colleges are in financial straits:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3515947/Growing-number-small-colleges-struggling-stay-afloat.html

    The Wall Street rating agency Moody's predicts the number of four-year, nonprofit colleges closing annually will triple in the next few years
    Moody's also predicts mergers will more than double
    Between 2004 and 2014, the nation averaged about five closings and two to three mergers per year, the agency said
    An analysis of hundreds of colleges and universities released in 2014 by found that 43 per cent were on an 'unsustainable financial path'
     
    Presumably many private colleges have an incentive to seek tuition paying foreign students, but apparently state universities do this as well? Aren't state universities in better financial shape?

    I suspect that more than a few of the financially-troubled schools are HBCUs. And I suspect that the federal government will bail them out.

  121. @Buffalo Joe
    Grind, last year , at my high school's 50th reunion, I learned that one of my class mates was teaching math at a Japanese university or college. He had no qualifications other than an ability to speak Japanese and whatever math courses he took in HS and college. He was not a math major.

    That doesn’t surprise me at all. It’s not just gaijin goldbrickers, either. All but one of my professors was Japanese, and only one of those Japanese professors was any good (he was upper class, a descendant of samurai, Ivy-educated, tough as nails, and refreshingly outspoken and logical). The Japanese do not take university seriously. The hard part is getting into university. Once there, your ticket is punched, so the Japanese students will use that time to drink and party, a four-year respite between the dreary grind of cram schools and the dreary grind of life as a sarariman. Since no one expects the students at universities to do any work, no one expects the professors to actually teach…and for the most part, they don’t.

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