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Diversity or Ability: Which Promotes Intelligent Nonconformity?
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From Management Science, via Marginal Revolution:

Does Gender Diversity Promote Nonconformity?

Makan Amini, Mathias Ekström, Tore Ellingsen, Magnus Johannesson, Fredrik Strömsten

Published Online: March 25, 2016

Abstract
Failure to express minority views may distort the behavior of company boards, committees, juries, and other decision-making bodies. Devising a new experimental procedure to measure such conformity in a judgment task, we compare the degree of conformity in groups with varying gender composition. Overall, our experiments offer little evidence that gender composition affects expression of minority views. A robust finding is that a subject’s lack of ability predicts both a true propensity to accept others’ judgment (informational social influence) and a propensity to agree despite private doubt (normative social influence). Thus, as an antidote to conformity in our experiments, high individual ability seems more effective than group diversity.

An example of ability in action in overriding a wrong consensus: The commission looking into the Challenger shuttle explosion in 1986 was supposed to be a quasi-cover-up, but some engineers who knew what really had gone wrong got to the great Richard Feynman and persuaded him to drop an O-ring into a glass of ice water on national TV.

This bankrupted Morton-Thiokol.

Somehow, I don’t think that would have happened if Feynman’s seat on the commission had been given instead to, say, a young Condi Rice in the name of diversity.

The disastrous Iraq War decision of 2001-2003 provides an interesting case study of demographic diversity in group decisionmaking, in that the top two foreign policy appointees, Secretary of State Colin Powell and National Security Adviser Condi Rice, were the products of the GOP inner circle’s affirmative action campaign of recent decades to find some black talent willing to align with the Republican Party and then promote them repeatedly.

In defense of Powell and Rice, I doubt if either would have come up with the idea for the Iraq Attaq on their own. They never seemed enthusiastic for it like Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, and Feith did. Powell put up some resistance to the war in 2002. (When Rice replaced Powell in 2005, her performance was cautious and chastened.)

But, ultimately, both of them, despite their initial common sense, caved in on Iraq and went along to get along.

I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s a general pattern: affirmative action appointees promoted in the interest of “diversity” tend to be conformists, and thus we get the opposite of what is promised: instead of far-ranging arguments over the merits of proposals, we get less debate and more conformism.

The Supreme Court’s 2003 Grutter decision on college admissions elevated “diversity” as a compelling state interest that would allow public universities to override the 14th Amendment’s “equal protections of the laws” language. “Diversity” was claimed, based on the usual non-replicable studies, to improve classroom discussions for everybody.

Personally, I’m more sympathetic to the idea of racial quotas as reparations, but just for two finite groups: descendants of black slaves in the United States and registered members of American Indian tribes. In contrast, the diversity ideology corrupts the social sciences and is unlimited in potential extent as ever more immigrants choose to move to America, where they become legally privileged as providers of Diversity. Plus, there’s absolutely no let-up in reparations propaganda.

So, let’s just say that the descendants of American slaves and official tribe members get reparations in the form of racial preferences and drop the Diversity charade.

Covert reparations in the form of gender preferences make very little sense at all, because deprivation is hardly past down the generations. Lauren Bush Lauren, for example, is the granddaughter of a president and the daughter-in-law of a billionaire. That women suffered career discriminations 60 years ago hardly deprives her life today.

 
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  1. This is a good article about how stupid America has become.

    Read it Man!

    Bart

    http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/depressing-survey-results-show-how-extremely-stupid-america-has-become

    • Replies: @epebble
    @HBD Guy

    But, but, President Trump will deport all Mexicans and Muslims and put high tariffs on imports, give large tax cuts to job creators, provide Medicaid for all. That will Make America Great Again.

    , @Pseudonymic Handle
    @HBD Guy

    You are going to find lots of stupid and uninformed people everywhere.
    The low quality of some college graduates is because there are too many of them, so college stopped signifying much.
    The US does poorly in tests because of vibrants, Europe is racing US to the bottom in this.
    What matters the most are the smart fraction and the dumb fraction. The US has enough prosperity to attract the smart from other countries and penalties harsh enough to keep the dumb in prison.
    Smarter immigration policies would be nice, but as Richwine found out they come in conflict with the Zero Amendment and get you watsoned.

  2. Putting lots of women on a decision-making body doesn’t make it more non-conformist…who would have ever guessed?

    • Agree: gruff
  3. “Personally, I’m more sympathetic to the idea of racial quotas as reparations,…”

    Personally, I think racial quotas, Affirmative Action, and all the other govt handouts
    ARE the “reparations”.

    • Replies: @Das
    @boogerbently

    Right. But instead of just going to a relatively small, targeted group: non-immigrant blacks and registered Native Americans (maybe 13% of the population), all those benefits are divvied up among women, Hispanics, and every other group that can claim to be somehow contributing to "Diversity."

    For this trend you really have to blame moderates on the Supreme Court like Powell and O'Connor, who opposed affirmative action as reparations but accepted the pro-diversity argument.

    Instead of scaling back affirmative action, as they might have intended, they just entrenched it further by spreading the benefits around to larger, more politically influential groups.

    Replies: @Ed, @ben tillman

    , @anon
    @boogerbently

    Yes but they should only apply to the ppl concerned.

    It's nonsense that all non-white immigrants are treated as a victim of slavery.

  4. Timur Kuran’s book “Private truths, public lies” was a very good primer on the disastrous effect that not speaking your mind has on democracies and any other group process. Through taboos or legal repression, you do not express your preferences clearly, resulting in preference falsification, kind of like how Merkel is claiming most Germans agree specifically with her refugee policies because they still voted for her. This means that not only is the democracy now a sham, but it also prevents you the process from harnessing knowledge and experience that is gained informally and reflected in attitudes, biases etc. For all the dogma on the free market deciding the best allocation of resources based on prices resulting from the information of the participants, nobody seems to be willing to let democracy work that way as well.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preference_falsification
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timur_Kuran

  5. @boogerbently
    "Personally, I’m more sympathetic to the idea of racial quotas as reparations,..."

    Personally, I think racial quotas, Affirmative Action, and all the other govt handouts
    ARE the "reparations".

    Replies: @Das, @anon

    Right. But instead of just going to a relatively small, targeted group: non-immigrant blacks and registered Native Americans (maybe 13% of the population), all those benefits are divvied up among women, Hispanics, and every other group that can claim to be somehow contributing to “Diversity.”

    For this trend you really have to blame moderates on the Supreme Court like Powell and O’Connor, who opposed affirmative action as reparations but accepted the pro-diversity argument.

    Instead of scaling back affirmative action, as they might have intended, they just entrenched it further by spreading the benefits around to larger, more politically influential groups.

    • Replies: @Ed
    @Das

    The descendants of US slaves tend to be quite dumb about this issue. They vigorously defend other groups & the diversity cult more than anyone. They think by putting more people in the "people of color" tent they'll have sufficient numbers to take it to the Man. A few are learning that many of their non-white allies despise them even more than whites.

    Replies: @Jefferson

    , @ben tillman
    @Das


    Instead of scaling back affirmative action, as they might have intended, they just entrenched it further by spreading the benefits around to larger, more politically influential groups.
     
    You are far too charitable. No one on the Supreme Court could be stupid enough to think that removing all limitations on anti-white discrimination could scale such discrimination back.
  6. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Skin/sex diversity can’t imbue intellectual ferment to a committee process; if anything it draws new non-intellectual factional lines to sap from the dedication of the group, basically enabling various parties’ amours-propres or virtue signal motives (taking the woman’s or NAM’s side); see also unisex elementary schools. It’s a further, separate degradation to lower the competence threshold for ad hoc bean-counting to get more kinds of pigment/genitalia in the room.

    But you typically wave off the real problem of meritocratic groupthink due to your obnoxious arrogant belief that a board of 10 Steve Sailers would always know best compared to some heterogenous selection of committed, minimally competent but idiosyncratic participants, like in a Michael Crichton novel about some alien virus on Antarctica. To you the only thing that matters on any question is cumulative SAT points, after all, when has the high-holy #2 pencil justice league ever missed something important. Running important decisions past the first 3,000 names in the Boston phone book, what with their “all walks of life” and “common sense,” would be blasphemy against g.
    2015 addendum: when subject is Donald Trump, democratic will is good & aspie IQ fetishists are bad.

    • Replies: @stillCARealist
    @Anonymous

    This is a pretty good comment. I'm curious to read the comebacks.

    , @Space Ghost
    @Anonymous

    Moldbug? Is that you?

    , @Jus' Sayin'...
    @Anonymous

    Several years ago I had an edifying experience as foreman of a jury in a minor civil case. I suspect that I was selected as foreman because of my credentials: a Ph.D. and a career involving a lot of experience in government. The jury was a partial cross-section of the community, it included a construction worker, a housewife, the owner of a small business, an elementary school teacher, and so on; although it was 100% White and composed with the exception of one graduate student of people well into or past middle-age.

    It turned out that I totally misunderstood the critical issue in the case and had to have it explained to me by everyone else. High intelligence and credentials are not alone enough to determine competence.

    BTW, my combined GRE aptitude tests in 1969, when I took them, were very close to 1600 and I scored in the 95th and 85th percentiles on the two GRE subject exams I eventually sat for - Mathematics and Sociology [which I had never formally studied] - so I'd probably have an IQ north of 140 or so. It didn't help me in the jury room.

    , @Dave Pinsen
    @Anonymous

    Sounds like you're alluding to Crichton's Andromeda Strain, which was set in New Mexico or somewhere. In that novel, the surgeon ends up figuring out the solution that the brainier scientists had missed.

  7. Personally, I’m more sympathetic to the idea of racial quotas as reparations, but just for two finite groups: descendants of black slaves in the United States and registered members of American Indian tribes.

    This has long been my decades-long view too. A simple exercise in not throwing the baby out with the bath water.

    Procedurally, what would be most fair would be to require institutions engaging in AA (exclusively for these two groups) to identify the individuals who got the short end of the stick that year. In other words, those who but for AA would have been offered admission, to a university, for example, would be guaranteed admission the following year, along with free tuition. Or, if they chose to attend another school, a lessor cash payout.

  8. Bringing up the Iraq War is interesting because I believe it is indicative of our persistent culture wars.

    I think a lot of Americans supported the war because they viscerally hated those who were opposed to it.

    Many people did not consider the important realist consequences of toppling Saddam. Perhaps many were too daft to realize the implications as well. Regardless, it seems that it was more important for many of the war-hungry right to beat the smug, urban, NYT liberal than it was to pursue sound international policy.

    Maybe one can say the same about today’s contentious liberal about pursuing unlimited immigration.

    • Replies: @Sparkling Wiggle
    @Yak-15


    I think a lot of Americans supported the war because they viscerally hated those who were opposed to it
     
    Or those who continued to support it.

    A lot of that hatred toward ¡Jeb! was really just GOP types transferring the disappointment in George W that they couldn't express 10 years ago for fear of coming down on the same side of an issue as Cindy Sheehan.
    , @IBC
    @Yak-15


    it seems that it was more important for many of the war-hungry right to beat the smug, urban, NYT liberal

     

    The NYT itself, helped launch the invasion:

    http://fair.org/take-action/action-alerts/new-york-times-rewrites-iraq-war-history/

    Even super-smug "progressives" like David Remnick of the New Yorker, were emphatic about the need to take out Saddam Hussein by any means necessary:

    http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2003/02/03/making-a-case

    , @Altai
    @Yak-15

    This is a problem with environmentalism, a lot of people on the right tend to dismiss global warming simply because they despise the likes of Gwyneth Paltrow, but Gwyneth Paltrow didn't write the scientific papers and reports. She doesn't man the monitoring stations or design the experiments. A bunch of geeky white guys physicists, engineers and chemists did and they were doing it long before it became a cultural or political issue. You may as well dismiss HIV causing AIDs because of how annoying people are about virtue signalling about HIV victims since they tend to be African. Then you get into the whole Ross Perot, let's harvest everything to make a quick buck for a generation or two because those smug leftists in their cities love nature so much.

    It does bring up the fact that life is too complex for any individual to make decisions about everything by themselves. We vote for people we trust have our interests at heart, that's why the middle class left and non-whites are going so insane about Trump, it's not what he has pledged or is likely to achieve, it's the visceral sense that he seems to care about the group they have identified as their enemy.

    , @AnotherDad
    @Yak-15


    Maybe one can say the same about today’s contentious liberal about pursuing unlimited immigration.
     
    Except that immigration is critically important and the Iraq war is pretty much entirely inconsequential. (To the US not Iraq.)

    The Iraq War cost maybe a trillion dollars, killed 5000 American soldiers, injured maybe 10 times that number. It killed based on these generous international estimates 100-200k Iraqis, almost all of them not by America or it's allies, but by terror attacks. Whether long term Iraq or the wider Arab world ends up better off or not is almost impossible to tell. (Short term various dictators keeping the lid on is more peaceful--which of course leftists decry as "American supported dictator".)

    Leftist projects spend such money and screw stuff up on that scale ... all the time. Heck taken over eight years the Soros\Democrat BLM agitation will probably have an American body count higher than 5000. If the leftists really push this through and we have massive depolicing and "disparate impact" pushing 70s style criminal leniency, the body count will end up over a generation will be 100K+, plus even more rapes, robberies, etc. But it will all be so much more diffuse and the NYT will run thumbsuckers about "root causes".

    People prattling on about the Iraq war being some giant "biggest disaster of all time" thing are dishonest or fools. We spent 1% of our GDP for a few years to further screw up an Arab "nation"--a Franco-Brit kludge of mutually antagonistic ethnic\religious groups and tribes--that was already screwed up.

    50 years hence, my children, grandchildren, great-grand children will be living in an immigration created dystopia, far, far, far from what America could have been because of leftist silliness, virtue signally and ethnic hatred. No one will give a shit about the Iraq war.

    Replies: @vinteuil, @Rob McX

    , @MarkinLA
    @Yak-15

    I think a lot of Americans supported the war because they viscerally hated those who were opposed to it.

    Many people did not consider the important realist consequences of toppling Saddam. Perhaps many were too daft to realize the implications as well.


    I don't think so. Since the first gulf war went so well it had to do with the fact that this one would go well also. The actual war went exactly to plan. I doubt the average American gave any thought to the after war period.

    The reason why the average guy didn't consider the consequences of toppling Saddam is because few Americans know anything about that part of the world and were depending on the leadership of the country who were the supposed experts. Of course, the experts knew it would turn the place into a shit-hole, that was a feature not a bug for the Israel firsters.

  9. Reparations?

    Only if they are exclusively paid by slave owners. The idea that non-slave owners benefited from slavery is nonsense.

    If cheap illegal immigrants depress wages, what does slave labor do?

    The lot of black Americans is vastly superior than that of Africans.

    As Muhammed Ali famously said after visiting Zaire “Thank God my grand-daddy got on that boat.”

    • Replies: @South Texas GUy
    @Bill Jones

    I've heard many blacks say something to the effect of "Thank God my ancestors got that free boat ride."

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Bill Jones


    If cheap illegal immigrants depress wages, what does slave labor do?
     
    Many of the first settlers in the Upper Midwest and Plains were Southerners. Some today point this out with pride. But it seems more a matter befitting shame-- the migrants couldn't compete with the cheap alien labor back home.

    Yankees didn't come until the arable land in the East got filled up.
  10. I suggest that America should widen its commitment to diversity by insisting that all groups of female decision makers must include significant numbers of men. Also, the leadership councils of Hispanic and Black organizations, like La Raza and the NAACP, must include significant numbers of white participants.

    Diversity would thus result in improvement rather than making things worse.

  11. I’m more sympathetic to the idea of racial quotas as reparations, but just for two finite groups: descendants of black slaves in the United States and registered members of American Indian tribes.

    If your proposal is intended as an improvement over the status quo, then yes. But establishing an hereditary aristocracy is why we have this country in the first place. Besides, it consigns the beneficiaries to a second class status (“you made it because of racial quotas”) even if they are genuinely talented.

    Maybe from a societal standpoint it is worth it. But from a self-respect standpoint it is not.

  12. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    I, too, would not object if blacks/African-Americans and perhaps American Indians/Native Americans were givern preferential treatment.

    The idea that everyone who is not a white heterosexual male deserves preferential treatment is both immoral and illogical.

    One would think opponents of this form of affirmative action would be making this point especially to blacks: Everyone and his cousin is free-riding on your past. Does that not bother you?

    The left has had, and continues to have, tremendous success exploiting black Americans and their history as a maul or wedge tp split through resistance and obtain what it wants. They dress all their constituenceis in the clothes of the balck American struggle for civil rights. No one ever calls them out on this. In part, I suppose, because the coalition of the fringes is simply too big and too powerful already and stifles such criticism. Also, lacks are hardly the best led and organized political bloc in the US.

    I was hoping that Trump, if nominated, might take up this point in the general election and ask blacks, “So remind me why is it that rich women and gays and lesbians and conquistadors and all sorts of immigrants should also be beneficiaries of affirmative action? How’s that working out for ya?”

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    @Anonymous

    When the La Raza types were trying to make amnesty a civil rights issue there were some blacks who objected.

  13. I think this blog post is conflating three things:

    #1 – Diversity in the gross sense, i.e., people with vaginas and people with different colored skin or with epicanthal folds or with same sex sexual preferences versus diversity in the specific sense of having people with diverse or divergent POV’s who are in fact necessary in any hierarchy to keep that hierarchy honest or from going off the rails under charismatic leadership into some stupid war or another while acting as a brake to groupthink or whatever you want to call the bubble of belief in closed systems.

    #2 – Having said that, part of the issue here goes back to the discussion last year where there was extensive discussion about how there needed to be more women in astrophysics because they saw things differently. Or something like that.

    The blog post also makes a good point that “diversity” hires are very unlikely to rock the boat since their inclusion in the first place is predicated on their preferential hire.

    #3 – True non-conformism and thus true “diversity” isn’t going to be measured by sexual equipment, sexual tastes, skin color, or what have you. It’s going to be measured by individuals who may or may not have any of those traits or even genius level IQ but who are just independently minded and are not interested in being part of the crowd. It’s good to have someone like that around, even if they can be a pain in the ass. Once they learn to tone themselves down, they can also be invaluable.

    #4 I do in fact agree that there should be some preference, for historical reasons, for the advancement of former slave or native American lines. Promoting functional equality along gender lines is not only intrinsically idiotic it is one of the reasons our culture is going to be displaced in the 21st century.

  14. Affirmative Action for women just doesn’t make much sense. I figured this out in the early 70s when i was all of teenager. Basic biology and logic. By college it was clear that my female peers had the same opportunities i did. Yes there may be psych issues of “comfort” and “role modelling” in being a pioneer … so what. And in fact, my thesis was proved correct. Women were immediately very successful jumping into the sort of careers … that women are *interested* in.

    Being female is simply not an inter-generational condition. We males are very generous with our DNA. I myself have handing out both Xs and Ys to my kids.

    ~~~

    Anyone who thinks “female” and “non-conformity” have any positive correlation …. just not living on this planet.

    Not a knock. There’s good evolutionary reasons for it. The reality is any non-conformity impulses a gal has are because the DNA behind them was adaptive for one of her male ancestors. Being a woman–the whole hormonal, developmental shebang–actual suppresses the expression on non-conformity, and presumably the reverse for men.

    • Agree: ATX Hipster
  15. Institutions that require both Diversity and Ability, oft end up with D’bility.

    • Replies: @gruff
    @Jenner Ickham Errican

    And Aversity.

  16. As much as I should keep my remarks to golf (and imagine my surprise when Derbyshire instead Sailer responded to my idea of carving County Down from the North, when I only wanted the area because of Royal County Down)…

    Anyway I am firmly in the camp that the Cathedral exists and our government is a monoculture of Ivy League thought. It is not how I think. Many misadventures would have been avoided if, say, an Oklahoma State scholar would have been asked if Iraqis could vote in a good government.

    True fact: my father in law is a Muslim, born in Delhi pre separation. Grew up in Lahore. Before he went on his Hajj, he believed that Arabs needed a benign dictator to run things. A week in Mecca and Medinah made him delete the benign from his determination of the qualifications of an Arab ruler.

  17. I am totally opposed to any benefit at all, to either American Indians or the descendants of Black slaves. Because it is not and never was intended to be limited to them, and we White men don’t get to choose. We either get White women, NAMs, and every part of the Third World plus gays and lesbians lined up against us; or we put THEM on the other foot.

    Frankly, as a Straight White man I am in favor of discrimination against all who are NOT straight White men, and favors and affirmative action for Straight White Men.

    If you won’t fight your corner no one else will. Straight White Men need to band together to abolish AA at a minimum. White Women will always gravitate to whoever has the most privileges because that is the marker of status (duh) and thus it is vitally important to expunge all privileges for non Straight White Men.

    Lets be honest and reality based. The choice is not either a genteel, limited AA or the Total Anti-White Male War. The choice is either Straight White Men fighting back or rolling over and playing dead. Let American Indians or descendants of slaves look after their own, or not.

    • Agree: Anonym
    • Replies: @Das
    @Whiskey

    The initial justification for affirmative action was just straight up: "reparations for blacks." Read the initial speeches given by LBJ and Nixon.

    Conservatives challenged this in court, saying "Why are a bunch of public universities that never practiced discrimination against blacks paying reparations to blacks?" And as a result, affirmative action in public universities was upheld, but only on diversity grounds.

    The long-term effect of this has been for "diversity" to be elevated to the point of religion, and for anyone who is not a white male to be eligible for various preferences, because hey, they add to diversity.

    A far superior policy would be just to give blacks a 10% quota and cancel the oppression Olympics. But the courts have ruled quotas unconstitutional, and we're stuck with the far worse diversity racket.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @stillCARealist

  18. @Yak-15
    Bringing up the Iraq War is interesting because I believe it is indicative of our persistent culture wars.

    I think a lot of Americans supported the war because they viscerally hated those who were opposed to it.

    Many people did not consider the important realist consequences of toppling Saddam. Perhaps many were too daft to realize the implications as well. Regardless, it seems that it was more important for many of the war-hungry right to beat the smug, urban, NYT liberal than it was to pursue sound international policy.

    Maybe one can say the same about today's contentious liberal about pursuing unlimited immigration.

    Replies: @Sparkling Wiggle, @IBC, @Altai, @AnotherDad, @MarkinLA

    I think a lot of Americans supported the war because they viscerally hated those who were opposed to it

    Or those who continued to support it.

    A lot of that hatred toward ¡Jeb! was really just GOP types transferring the disappointment in George W that they couldn’t express 10 years ago for fear of coming down on the same side of an issue as Cindy Sheehan.

  19. @Anonymous
    Skin/sex diversity can't imbue intellectual ferment to a committee process; if anything it draws new non-intellectual factional lines to sap from the dedication of the group, basically enabling various parties' amours-propres or virtue signal motives (taking the woman's or NAM's side); see also unisex elementary schools. It's a further, separate degradation to lower the competence threshold for ad hoc bean-counting to get more kinds of pigment/genitalia in the room.

    But you typically wave off the real problem of meritocratic groupthink due to your obnoxious arrogant belief that a board of 10 Steve Sailers would always know best compared to some heterogenous selection of committed, minimally competent but idiosyncratic participants, like in a Michael Crichton novel about some alien virus on Antarctica. To you the only thing that matters on any question is cumulative SAT points, after all, when has the high-holy #2 pencil justice league ever missed something important. Running important decisions past the first 3,000 names in the Boston phone book, what with their "all walks of life" and "common sense," would be blasphemy against g.
    2015 addendum: when subject is Donald Trump, democratic will is good & aspie IQ fetishists are bad.

    Replies: @stillCARealist, @Space Ghost, @Jus' Sayin'..., @Dave Pinsen

    This is a pretty good comment. I’m curious to read the comebacks.

  20. “I’m more sympathetic to the idea of racial quotas as reparations, but just for two finite groups: descendants of black slaves in the United States and registered members of American Indian tribes.”

    Reparations? Et tu, Steve?

    Somewhere on the Left Bank in Paris, Ta-Nahesi Coates will be smiling when he reads that sentence.

    • Replies: @Hubbub
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    I'm against affirmative action in any form. I am for every individual being treated fairly. AA is just another form of prejudicial treatment - this time directed against whites. Two blacks don't make a white. It is not possible to make up for past transgressions by penalizing the present. Such actions simply create another class of aggrieved people who feel slighted by their government and/or officials.

  21. “Affirmative action caused 9/11 and the Iraq war” is the kind of intelligent nonconformity that keeps me coming back to this blog. (I kid, I kid!)

    • Replies: @Ed
    @European-American

    I don't know if #20 was really made in jest, but this was one of Steve's better blog posts. I've also suspected that one thing behind the corporate push for diversity in looks was precisely to reduce diversity in viewpoints.

    One depressing thing that occurred to me that it is possible to construct a defense of Powell's conduct in the runup to the invasion of Iraq. What he should have done, of course, was resign. But I'm finding it hard to think of another post-WW2 Secretary of State or National Security advisor who would have resigned in that situation. Cy Vance did resign on principle once. Probably George Marshall would have and maybe Dean Acheson. Everyone else would have been strongly in favor or would have been a good soldier like Powell. The only senior executive officeholder anywhere who resigned over the invasion was Robin Cook in the UK, though maybe you can count Paul O'Neill, though the official reasons given for his ouster didn't mention the war.

    Powell should have at least stayed away from the UN and had the ambassador to the UN handle the propaganda presentation, but I don't know how many former Secretaries of State would have done even that.

    Replies: @European-American, @Wency

  22. Perhaps let some wisdom from the ol’ shop speak on the subject regarding reparations.

  23. Feynman did excellent work for the Rogers Commission, but having honest and competent management at NASA and its contractors would have been even better.

    I’m hoping that the proliferation of space companies in the private sector will prevent another accident like the Challenger. Space flight is inherently risky, but it doesn’t help when you have bureaucrats ignoring engineers and adjusting the risk guidelines to accommodate faulty o-rings rather than fixing the o-rings. My understanding is that the culture at SpaceX, for instance, is very engineer-driven rather than management-driven. This is opposite any government agency.

    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    @ATX Hipster

    I recall that the Challenger launch was postponed several times due to the cold weather, and ABC's Sam Donaldson kept bringing this up on "This Week with David Brinkley" as evidence of NASA's incompetence. Then NASA launched it and it blew up. I wonder if the decision-makers of NASA felt pressured by the carping of Sam Donaldson and others. And I wonder if Sam Donaldson ever feels some responsibility, however minor.

    Replies: @ATX Hipster, @NOTA

    , @Brutusale
    @ATX Hipster

    My brother did some consulting work for Bezos' Blue Origin, and he said that that is informed caution is the prime directive. After all, their corporate motto is "gradatim ferociter".

    And I got a very cool Blue Origin ground control polo for Christmas!

    , @Mr. Anon
    @ATX Hipster

    The sad thing is that NASA is even more institutionally incompetent today that it was thirty years ago.

    , @MarkinLA
    @ATX Hipster

    As long as you have deadlines, you will have screw-ups as people rush to meet the deadlines.

  24. @ATX Hipster
    Feynman did excellent work for the Rogers Commission, but having honest and competent management at NASA and its contractors would have been even better.

    I'm hoping that the proliferation of space companies in the private sector will prevent another accident like the Challenger. Space flight is inherently risky, but it doesn't help when you have bureaucrats ignoring engineers and adjusting the risk guidelines to accommodate faulty o-rings rather than fixing the o-rings. My understanding is that the culture at SpaceX, for instance, is very engineer-driven rather than management-driven. This is opposite any government agency.

    Replies: @Harry Baldwin, @Brutusale, @Mr. Anon, @MarkinLA

    I recall that the Challenger launch was postponed several times due to the cold weather, and ABC’s Sam Donaldson kept bringing this up on “This Week with David Brinkley” as evidence of NASA’s incompetence. Then NASA launched it and it blew up. I wonder if the decision-makers of NASA felt pressured by the carping of Sam Donaldson and others. And I wonder if Sam Donaldson ever feels some responsibility, however minor.

    • Replies: @ATX Hipster
    @Harry Baldwin

    I'm sure they did feel pressure, which is all the more reason to pick competent people with the stomach to disregard the talking heads for leadership positions. As Feynman said in his report, "reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled."

    , @NOTA
    @Harry Baldwin

    If NASA let Sam Donaldson's questions convince them to launch when conditions were unsafe, the fault wasn't Donaldson's. He had no power to order them to launch, and no expertise on which to advise them.

  25. Ed says:
    @European-American
    "Affirmative action caused 9/11 and the Iraq war" is the kind of intelligent nonconformity that keeps me coming back to this blog. (I kid, I kid!)

    Replies: @Ed

    I don’t know if #20 was really made in jest, but this was one of Steve’s better blog posts. I’ve also suspected that one thing behind the corporate push for diversity in looks was precisely to reduce diversity in viewpoints.

    One depressing thing that occurred to me that it is possible to construct a defense of Powell’s conduct in the runup to the invasion of Iraq. What he should have done, of course, was resign. But I’m finding it hard to think of another post-WW2 Secretary of State or National Security advisor who would have resigned in that situation. Cy Vance did resign on principle once. Probably George Marshall would have and maybe Dean Acheson. Everyone else would have been strongly in favor or would have been a good soldier like Powell. The only senior executive officeholder anywhere who resigned over the invasion was Robin Cook in the UK, though maybe you can count Paul O’Neill, though the official reasons given for his ouster didn’t mention the war.

    Powell should have at least stayed away from the UN and had the ambassador to the UN handle the propaganda presentation, but I don’t know how many former Secretaries of State would have done even that.

    • Replies: @European-American
    @Ed

    Things are so darned multi-determined. Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld certainly can't be blamed on affirmative action (OR CAN THEY -- I kid).

    But diversity and immigration benefiting bosses by providing a more docile workforce -- that's an insight I thank Steve for revealing to me, obvious as it might seem to many.

    , @Wency
    @Ed

    I'm normally the last guy to defend affirmative action in any case, but I do think Colin Powell is a bad example here. Could he have done better? Sure. Would the median Republican Secretary of State done better? Almost certainly not. He probably would have conformed much more thoroughly and rapidly than Powell. We know this because of how rare vocal dissent is from a sitting Secretary of State. As far as nonconformity from senior cabinet members goes, he is near the top.

    An important component of this is that Powell actually brought some of the right kind of diversity -- a military perspective and a first-hand view as to how the first Gulf War was conducted and why the decision was made in that war not to overrun Iraq.

    It's true that Colin Powell could have resigned and escalated his dissent, and this would have been more intellectually honest. He didn't do so, probably for the sake of his career and a belief, rationalized by careerist tendencies, that he could make more of a difference from inside the system, moving the administration on the margin towards a more multilateral approach to Iraq.

  26. Incidentally if a blood quantum was used for descendants of slaves as they are used for that of Native Americans then all of a sudden black identity would be the preserve of a previous few (Native Americans seem to have zero interested in their Hispanic kinfolk, who admittedly have significant traces of indigenous ancestry)..

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    @Zachary Latif

    The US government did not fight the Indians in Mexico and central America and put them on reservations. It isn't about who you are genetically related to it is about what happened to your direct ancestors.

    Blacks should be required to show that they are descended from blacks who were here in the US prior to 1900 since there was very little immigration by blacks from 1865 to 1900.

    Indians should be recognized members of a tribe.

  27. @Harry Baldwin
    @ATX Hipster

    I recall that the Challenger launch was postponed several times due to the cold weather, and ABC's Sam Donaldson kept bringing this up on "This Week with David Brinkley" as evidence of NASA's incompetence. Then NASA launched it and it blew up. I wonder if the decision-makers of NASA felt pressured by the carping of Sam Donaldson and others. And I wonder if Sam Donaldson ever feels some responsibility, however minor.

    Replies: @ATX Hipster, @NOTA

    I’m sure they did feel pressure, which is all the more reason to pick competent people with the stomach to disregard the talking heads for leadership positions. As Feynman said in his report, “reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.”

  28. “Women were immediately very successful jumping into the sort of careers … that women are *interested* in.”

    This is starting to become a significant problem in fields like teaching and social science research. Women now make up the majority of arts teachers, journalists, heritage workers, social science researchers etc and their higher level of intellectual conformity is making it making easier for the powers that be to suppress politically incorrect views.

    Also I suspect the women in these fields are disportionately from upper-middle class backgrounds (and therefore more likely to be PC and liberal). An upper-middle class male will usually go into a high-paying field like engineering, finance or medicine, but upper-middle class females aren’t so focused on making money and many are quite happy being a museum curator or English teacher. This in turns drives out quite a few lower-middle class males and females who probably end up going into other lines of work (sales, trades, retail, computing etc).

  29. @Yak-15
    Bringing up the Iraq War is interesting because I believe it is indicative of our persistent culture wars.

    I think a lot of Americans supported the war because they viscerally hated those who were opposed to it.

    Many people did not consider the important realist consequences of toppling Saddam. Perhaps many were too daft to realize the implications as well. Regardless, it seems that it was more important for many of the war-hungry right to beat the smug, urban, NYT liberal than it was to pursue sound international policy.

    Maybe one can say the same about today's contentious liberal about pursuing unlimited immigration.

    Replies: @Sparkling Wiggle, @IBC, @Altai, @AnotherDad, @MarkinLA

    it seems that it was more important for many of the war-hungry right to beat the smug, urban, NYT liberal

    The NYT itself, helped launch the invasion:

    http://fair.org/take-action/action-alerts/new-york-times-rewrites-iraq-war-history/

    Even super-smug “progressives” like David Remnick of the New Yorker, were emphatic about the need to take out Saddam Hussein by any means necessary:

    http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2003/02/03/making-a-case

  30. @Ed
    @European-American

    I don't know if #20 was really made in jest, but this was one of Steve's better blog posts. I've also suspected that one thing behind the corporate push for diversity in looks was precisely to reduce diversity in viewpoints.

    One depressing thing that occurred to me that it is possible to construct a defense of Powell's conduct in the runup to the invasion of Iraq. What he should have done, of course, was resign. But I'm finding it hard to think of another post-WW2 Secretary of State or National Security advisor who would have resigned in that situation. Cy Vance did resign on principle once. Probably George Marshall would have and maybe Dean Acheson. Everyone else would have been strongly in favor or would have been a good soldier like Powell. The only senior executive officeholder anywhere who resigned over the invasion was Robin Cook in the UK, though maybe you can count Paul O'Neill, though the official reasons given for his ouster didn't mention the war.

    Powell should have at least stayed away from the UN and had the ambassador to the UN handle the propaganda presentation, but I don't know how many former Secretaries of State would have done even that.

    Replies: @European-American, @Wency

    Things are so darned multi-determined. Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld certainly can’t be blamed on affirmative action (OR CAN THEY — I kid).

    But diversity and immigration benefiting bosses by providing a more docile workforce — that’s an insight I thank Steve for revealing to me, obvious as it might seem to many.

  31. Jim Webb (D. Va.) made a similar argument regarding AA in a 2010 op ed in the WSJ. His point was that only blacks descended from slaves could be said to have been disadvantaged by their own government. However, he advocated ending AA completely and he did not mention American Indians.

  32. @HBD Guy
    This is a good article about how stupid America has become.

    Read it Man!

    Bart

    http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/depressing-survey-results-show-how-extremely-stupid-america-has-become

    Replies: @epebble, @Pseudonymic Handle

    But, but, President Trump will deport all Mexicans and Muslims and put high tariffs on imports, give large tax cuts to job creators, provide Medicaid for all. That will Make America Great Again.

  33. descendants of black slaves in the United States and registered members of American Indian tribes.

    Both are going to require genealogies. The blood quanta for Indians need to be standardized for all legal actions. Recently in California a foster girl was taken from a family and given to another family who are related to the girl through a step-grandfather and all of this because the girl was 1/64th Choctaw.

    If 1/64th is good enough to rip her out of one family it should be good enough to qualify to share in the casino spoils a tribe generates and it should be good enough to get AA at Harvard.

    • Replies: @Jefferson
    @TangoMan

    "Both are going to require genealogies. The blood quanta for Indians need to be standardized for all legal actions. Recently in California a foster girl was taken from a family and given to another family who are related to the girl through a step-grandfather and all of this because the girl was 1/64th Choctaw.

    If 1/64th is good enough to rip her out of one family it should be good enough to qualify to share in the casino spoils a tribe generates and it should be good enough to get AA at Harvard."

    The current principal Chief of the Cherokee nation looks Whiter than a lot of Southern Europeans.

    Too much Cracka blood flows through the veins of the Cherokee nation. The old school Amerindian phenotype is going to become an endangered species in the Cherokee nation.

  34. @Whiskey
    I am totally opposed to any benefit at all, to either American Indians or the descendants of Black slaves. Because it is not and never was intended to be limited to them, and we White men don't get to choose. We either get White women, NAMs, and every part of the Third World plus gays and lesbians lined up against us; or we put THEM on the other foot.

    Frankly, as a Straight White man I am in favor of discrimination against all who are NOT straight White men, and favors and affirmative action for Straight White Men.

    If you won't fight your corner no one else will. Straight White Men need to band together to abolish AA at a minimum. White Women will always gravitate to whoever has the most privileges because that is the marker of status (duh) and thus it is vitally important to expunge all privileges for non Straight White Men.

    Lets be honest and reality based. The choice is not either a genteel, limited AA or the Total Anti-White Male War. The choice is either Straight White Men fighting back or rolling over and playing dead. Let American Indians or descendants of slaves look after their own, or not.

    Replies: @Das

    The initial justification for affirmative action was just straight up: “reparations for blacks.” Read the initial speeches given by LBJ and Nixon.

    Conservatives challenged this in court, saying “Why are a bunch of public universities that never practiced discrimination against blacks paying reparations to blacks?” And as a result, affirmative action in public universities was upheld, but only on diversity grounds.

    The long-term effect of this has been for “diversity” to be elevated to the point of religion, and for anyone who is not a white male to be eligible for various preferences, because hey, they add to diversity.

    A far superior policy would be just to give blacks a 10% quota and cancel the oppression Olympics. But the courts have ruled quotas unconstitutional, and we’re stuck with the far worse diversity racket.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @Das

    Sometimes conservatives are their own worst enemy.

    This is true for the current presidential election.

    , @stillCARealist
    @Das

    Yes. When I worked for the state, back in the 90's, "diversity" meant primarily jobs for immigrants. As long as you don't fit the purest definition of WHITE, then you get the job. The most qualified non-whites for the jobs were Asian immigrants: Chinese, Indian, Filipino, ME. There were a few blacks and hispanics, but even they were more likely to be from Africa or South America.

    I really do wonder if American blacks understand that affirmative action has been hijacked like this.

    Do the actual American Indians even care? There's plenty of fake ones (also known as "white people") who use their bloodlines for government jobs, and are perfectly cynical about it.

  35. @Anonymous
    Skin/sex diversity can't imbue intellectual ferment to a committee process; if anything it draws new non-intellectual factional lines to sap from the dedication of the group, basically enabling various parties' amours-propres or virtue signal motives (taking the woman's or NAM's side); see also unisex elementary schools. It's a further, separate degradation to lower the competence threshold for ad hoc bean-counting to get more kinds of pigment/genitalia in the room.

    But you typically wave off the real problem of meritocratic groupthink due to your obnoxious arrogant belief that a board of 10 Steve Sailers would always know best compared to some heterogenous selection of committed, minimally competent but idiosyncratic participants, like in a Michael Crichton novel about some alien virus on Antarctica. To you the only thing that matters on any question is cumulative SAT points, after all, when has the high-holy #2 pencil justice league ever missed something important. Running important decisions past the first 3,000 names in the Boston phone book, what with their "all walks of life" and "common sense," would be blasphemy against g.
    2015 addendum: when subject is Donald Trump, democratic will is good & aspie IQ fetishists are bad.

    Replies: @stillCARealist, @Space Ghost, @Jus' Sayin'..., @Dave Pinsen

    Moldbug? Is that you?

  36. @Das
    @Whiskey

    The initial justification for affirmative action was just straight up: "reparations for blacks." Read the initial speeches given by LBJ and Nixon.

    Conservatives challenged this in court, saying "Why are a bunch of public universities that never practiced discrimination against blacks paying reparations to blacks?" And as a result, affirmative action in public universities was upheld, but only on diversity grounds.

    The long-term effect of this has been for "diversity" to be elevated to the point of religion, and for anyone who is not a white male to be eligible for various preferences, because hey, they add to diversity.

    A far superior policy would be just to give blacks a 10% quota and cancel the oppression Olympics. But the courts have ruled quotas unconstitutional, and we're stuck with the far worse diversity racket.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @stillCARealist

    Sometimes conservatives are their own worst enemy.

    This is true for the current presidential election.

  37. @Bill Jones
    Reparations?

    Only if they are exclusively paid by slave owners. The idea that non-slave owners benefited from slavery is nonsense.

    If cheap illegal immigrants depress wages, what does slave labor do?

    The lot of black Americans is vastly superior than that of Africans.

    As Muhammed Ali famously said after visiting Zaire "Thank God my grand-daddy got on that boat."

    Replies: @South Texas GUy, @Reg Cæsar

    I’ve heard many blacks say something to the effect of “Thank God my ancestors got that free boat ride.”

  38. @HBD Guy
    This is a good article about how stupid America has become.

    Read it Man!

    Bart

    http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/depressing-survey-results-show-how-extremely-stupid-america-has-become

    Replies: @epebble, @Pseudonymic Handle

    You are going to find lots of stupid and uninformed people everywhere.
    The low quality of some college graduates is because there are too many of them, so college stopped signifying much.
    The US does poorly in tests because of vibrants, Europe is racing US to the bottom in this.
    What matters the most are the smart fraction and the dumb fraction. The US has enough prosperity to attract the smart from other countries and penalties harsh enough to keep the dumb in prison.
    Smarter immigration policies would be nice, but as Richwine found out they come in conflict with the Zero Amendment and get you watsoned.

  39. “Personally, I’m more sympathetic to the idea of racial quotas as reparations, but just for two finite groups: descendants of black slaves in the United States and registered members of American Indian tribes.”
    in a similar way I think it would be good to make it even easier for East European Sinti and Roma to Germany, give them training (when they want to) and let them work. They should have some credit because of what was done to them in WWII. Of course jews should have the right to settle in Germany, too. Though this sadly has become less and less attractive over the years.
    But Arabs and Subsaharan Africans (with the exception of Hereros) should not have such a right.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Erik Sieven

    In recent years, there has been an effort to universalize the Holocaust so the plight of Roma, gays, etc. has been played up to the point where you might think that there were almost as many of them who were victims as Jews. Here are the actual #'s for Auschwitz:

    Jews (1,095,000 deported to Auschwitz, of whom 960,000 died)
    Poles (147,000 deported, of whom 74,000 died)
    Roma (23,000 deported, of whom 21,000 died)
    Soviet prisoners of war (15,000 deported and died)
    Other nationalities [the gays are in there somewhere] (25,000 deported, of whom 12,000 died)

    Replies: @Erik Sieven, @Matra

  40. It’s probably the blacks at the two extremes of the spectrum who think America has given them a raw deal. One the one end you have people like Ta-Nehisi Coates, whose liberal education has put them permanently on the white-hating left. On the other end, there are blacks in the ghettos who just don’t have enough education about the world to know about their origins, or to be aware of what the alternative would be if they had been left in Africa.

  41. The Supreme Court’s 2003 Grutter decision on college admissions elevated “diversity” as a compelling state interest that would allow public universities to override the 14th Amendment’s “equal protections of the laws” language.

    Actually this happened in 1978 in Bakke v UC Regents.

    Here is the decision: https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/438/265

    Since then, the moderate justices have kept a string of incoherent decisions supposedly restricting affirmative action, but in practice not doing much at all other than changing precisely how colleges arrive at their 15-20% unqualified URM set-aside.

    Interesting to see just how extremely unqualified that URM admitted to UC Davis’s medical school were in the 70’s:

    Average science GPA of regular admitted students 3.36
    Average of URMs admitted under affirmative action 2.42
    Average MCAT of regular admitted students (percentile in each of 4 catagories) 69 67 82 72
    Average MCAT of admitted URMs 34, 30, 37, 18

    Bakke, the white student rejected from the school, had the following GPA and MCAT percentiles: 3.44, 96, 94, 97, 72

    In summary, the white student excluded had a better than 94th percentile score on 3 of the four parts of the MCAT and a 3.44 science GPA and was rejected. The average admitted URM under the program he challenged had a C+ science GPA and an MCAT in the bottom fifth of takers in one of the categories.

  42. @TangoMan
    descendants of black slaves in the United States and registered members of American Indian tribes.

    Both are going to require genealogies. The blood quanta for Indians need to be standardized for all legal actions. Recently in California a foster girl was taken from a family and given to another family who are related to the girl through a step-grandfather and all of this because the girl was 1/64th Choctaw.

    If 1/64th is good enough to rip her out of one family it should be good enough to qualify to share in the casino spoils a tribe generates and it should be good enough to get AA at Harvard.

    Replies: @Jefferson

    “Both are going to require genealogies. The blood quanta for Indians need to be standardized for all legal actions. Recently in California a foster girl was taken from a family and given to another family who are related to the girl through a step-grandfather and all of this because the girl was 1/64th Choctaw.

    If 1/64th is good enough to rip her out of one family it should be good enough to qualify to share in the casino spoils a tribe generates and it should be good enough to get AA at Harvard.”

    The current principal Chief of the Cherokee nation looks Whiter than a lot of Southern Europeans.

    Too much Cracka blood flows through the veins of the Cherokee nation. The old school Amerindian phenotype is going to become an endangered species in the Cherokee nation.

  43. @Das
    @boogerbently

    Right. But instead of just going to a relatively small, targeted group: non-immigrant blacks and registered Native Americans (maybe 13% of the population), all those benefits are divvied up among women, Hispanics, and every other group that can claim to be somehow contributing to "Diversity."

    For this trend you really have to blame moderates on the Supreme Court like Powell and O'Connor, who opposed affirmative action as reparations but accepted the pro-diversity argument.

    Instead of scaling back affirmative action, as they might have intended, they just entrenched it further by spreading the benefits around to larger, more politically influential groups.

    Replies: @Ed, @ben tillman

    The descendants of US slaves tend to be quite dumb about this issue. They vigorously defend other groups & the diversity cult more than anyone. They think by putting more people in the “people of color” tent they’ll have sufficient numbers to take it to the Man. A few are learning that many of their non-white allies despise them even more than whites.

    • Replies: @Jefferson
    @Ed

    "The descendants of US slaves tend to be quite dumb about this issue. They vigorously defend other groups & the diversity cult more than anyone. They think by putting more people in the “people of color” tent they’ll have sufficient numbers to take it to the Man. A few are learning that many of their non-white allies despise them even more than whites."

    A lot of rappers are recording songs about murdering Donald Trump, even though he has employed more Blacks than Hildabeast ever has. Everytime she makes 6 figure speeches for Wall Street, she is not helping create Black jobs. Yet the Negroes still treat Hildabeast like royalty.

  44. @Ed
    @European-American

    I don't know if #20 was really made in jest, but this was one of Steve's better blog posts. I've also suspected that one thing behind the corporate push for diversity in looks was precisely to reduce diversity in viewpoints.

    One depressing thing that occurred to me that it is possible to construct a defense of Powell's conduct in the runup to the invasion of Iraq. What he should have done, of course, was resign. But I'm finding it hard to think of another post-WW2 Secretary of State or National Security advisor who would have resigned in that situation. Cy Vance did resign on principle once. Probably George Marshall would have and maybe Dean Acheson. Everyone else would have been strongly in favor or would have been a good soldier like Powell. The only senior executive officeholder anywhere who resigned over the invasion was Robin Cook in the UK, though maybe you can count Paul O'Neill, though the official reasons given for his ouster didn't mention the war.

    Powell should have at least stayed away from the UN and had the ambassador to the UN handle the propaganda presentation, but I don't know how many former Secretaries of State would have done even that.

    Replies: @European-American, @Wency

    I’m normally the last guy to defend affirmative action in any case, but I do think Colin Powell is a bad example here. Could he have done better? Sure. Would the median Republican Secretary of State done better? Almost certainly not. He probably would have conformed much more thoroughly and rapidly than Powell. We know this because of how rare vocal dissent is from a sitting Secretary of State. As far as nonconformity from senior cabinet members goes, he is near the top.

    An important component of this is that Powell actually brought some of the right kind of diversity — a military perspective and a first-hand view as to how the first Gulf War was conducted and why the decision was made in that war not to overrun Iraq.

    It’s true that Colin Powell could have resigned and escalated his dissent, and this would have been more intellectually honest. He didn’t do so, probably for the sake of his career and a belief, rationalized by careerist tendencies, that he could make more of a difference from inside the system, moving the administration on the margin towards a more multilateral approach to Iraq.

    • Agree: NOTA
  45. Somewhat related. In DC, management of Metro, DC’s subway system, is considering shutting down sections of the system or even the entire system for 6 months to conduct maintenance.

    The fact that a major system is facing such monumental maintenance issues is stunning. However when you discover the hiring culture of Metro it all makes sense. It’s been a job program for blacks for years. So Steve while I do agree in the main that affirmative action should be targeted, it should not be used in critical areas.
    http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/03/31/us/lengthy-shutdowns-in-washington-dc-metro-system-are-possible.html?_r=0

    http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/mar/26/metro-derailed-by-culture-of-complacence-incompete/?page=all

    • Replies: @Diversity Heretic
    @Ed

    Is the DC Metro becoming a form of Atlanta's MARTA: Moving Africans Rapidly Through Atlanta? Pity that the system isn't working; it was a good system when I was there between 1985 and 2004.

  46. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    "I’m more sympathetic to the idea of racial quotas as reparations, but just for two finite groups: descendants of black slaves in the United States and registered members of American Indian tribes."

    Reparations? Et tu, Steve?

    Somewhere on the Left Bank in Paris, Ta-Nahesi Coates will be smiling when he reads that sentence.

    Replies: @Hubbub

    I’m against affirmative action in any form. I am for every individual being treated fairly. AA is just another form of prejudicial treatment – this time directed against whites. Two blacks don’t make a white. It is not possible to make up for past transgressions by penalizing the present. Such actions simply create another class of aggrieved people who feel slighted by their government and/or officials.

  47. @Anonymous
    Skin/sex diversity can't imbue intellectual ferment to a committee process; if anything it draws new non-intellectual factional lines to sap from the dedication of the group, basically enabling various parties' amours-propres or virtue signal motives (taking the woman's or NAM's side); see also unisex elementary schools. It's a further, separate degradation to lower the competence threshold for ad hoc bean-counting to get more kinds of pigment/genitalia in the room.

    But you typically wave off the real problem of meritocratic groupthink due to your obnoxious arrogant belief that a board of 10 Steve Sailers would always know best compared to some heterogenous selection of committed, minimally competent but idiosyncratic participants, like in a Michael Crichton novel about some alien virus on Antarctica. To you the only thing that matters on any question is cumulative SAT points, after all, when has the high-holy #2 pencil justice league ever missed something important. Running important decisions past the first 3,000 names in the Boston phone book, what with their "all walks of life" and "common sense," would be blasphemy against g.
    2015 addendum: when subject is Donald Trump, democratic will is good & aspie IQ fetishists are bad.

    Replies: @stillCARealist, @Space Ghost, @Jus' Sayin'..., @Dave Pinsen

    Several years ago I had an edifying experience as foreman of a jury in a minor civil case. I suspect that I was selected as foreman because of my credentials: a Ph.D. and a career involving a lot of experience in government. The jury was a partial cross-section of the community, it included a construction worker, a housewife, the owner of a small business, an elementary school teacher, and so on; although it was 100% White and composed with the exception of one graduate student of people well into or past middle-age.

    It turned out that I totally misunderstood the critical issue in the case and had to have it explained to me by everyone else. High intelligence and credentials are not alone enough to determine competence.

    BTW, my combined GRE aptitude tests in 1969, when I took them, were very close to 1600 and I scored in the 95th and 85th percentiles on the two GRE subject exams I eventually sat for – Mathematics and Sociology [which I had never formally studied] – so I’d probably have an IQ north of 140 or so. It didn’t help me in the jury room.

  48. “In summary, when aggregated across studies, an extensive research literature on group performance has shown no overall advantage for demographically diverse groups, with a small tendency toward disadvantage, especially on subjective measures of performance.”

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/josi.12163/full

  49. @ATX Hipster
    Feynman did excellent work for the Rogers Commission, but having honest and competent management at NASA and its contractors would have been even better.

    I'm hoping that the proliferation of space companies in the private sector will prevent another accident like the Challenger. Space flight is inherently risky, but it doesn't help when you have bureaucrats ignoring engineers and adjusting the risk guidelines to accommodate faulty o-rings rather than fixing the o-rings. My understanding is that the culture at SpaceX, for instance, is very engineer-driven rather than management-driven. This is opposite any government agency.

    Replies: @Harry Baldwin, @Brutusale, @Mr. Anon, @MarkinLA

    My brother did some consulting work for Bezos’ Blue Origin, and he said that that is informed caution is the prime directive. After all, their corporate motto is “gradatim ferociter”.

    And I got a very cool Blue Origin ground control polo for Christmas!

  50. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s a general pattern: affirmative action appointees promoted in the interest of “diversity” tend to be conformists, and thus we get the opposite of what is promised: instead of far-ranging arguments over the merits of proposals, we get less debate and more conformism.

    I prefer to get my social observations from talented comedians rather than dim-witted Sociology PhDs peddling warmed over Marxist/French pablum since, after all, “you can pretend to be serious but you cant pretend to be witty”, here are Chris Rock and Dave Chappelle on this topic:

  51. I like where you are going with your thought process here. I think the libertarian objective of doing away with all anti-discrimination laws, whatever its intellectual merits, is politically unattainable in the short to medium term.

    However, narrowing and targeting diversity laws to reflect “actual historic oppression” cuts back on those laws, and leads to some interesting debates with the Democratic demographics. Also, if we could change the scope, perhaps making them all applicable to business with 50 or 75 employees or more, it would take a huge level of red tape off the back of small businesses everywhere. If there is going to be red tape for small business, it ought to be in connection with a new national e-verify system.

    From a GOP perspective, it would allow the GOP to set up a multiracial/ethnic coalition by targeting certain minority groups. I don’t see why there isn’t support on the populist side of the GOP for affirmative action for Blacks, because if you could make Black voters comfortable with the GOP, I don’t think they would care about immigration restrictions or lack of comparable favoritism for Hispanics (intersectionality being what it is).

    You have to wonder where the Democratic party would be without being able to take out their White Racist Redneck Kachina Dolls every election cycle to frighten the children into compliance.

  52. It’s ironic that you choose Feynman as the poster boy for “competent white man”. When Feynman was applying to grad school at Princeton, a Princeton physics professor wrote to a colleague at MIT, ” Is Feynman Jewish? We have no definite rule against Jews but have to keep their proportion in our department reasonably small because of the difficulty of placing them.” MIT wrote back that he was in fact Jewish but that Feynman’s “physiognomy and manner, however, show no trace of this characteristic and I do not believe the matter will be any great handicap.” [Either the professors were not being completely honest or they were oblivious – Feynman had one hell of a New Yawk accent which was more than a trace Jewish.] So in his time (at least in the early days), Feynman was seen more as an honorary white man than a full member of the club.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    @Jack D

    "So in his time (at least in the early days), Feynman was seen more as an honorary white man than a full member of the club.":

    Yeah, perhaps not unlike the way a gentile would nowadays be viewed at Harvard.

    , @Steve Sailer
    @Jack D

    "I am become Death, destroyer of worlds" pretty much ended that argument.

    Replies: @Jack D

    , @Charles Erwin Wilson
    @Jack D

    Can you offer any instance where Feynman's career was impeded by his absence as "a full member of the club"?

    Maybe you should look around. The dragons you think are fighting have been windmills for a half century, and mere images of windmills in most cases.

    Undermining the remnants of a once great republic may mean that you are the first victim of the swelling wave of stupidity that America's trajectory is on right now.

    Look to your interests, or don't be surprised when your anachronistic impulses leave you friendless.

    Replies: @Jack D

    , @Lot
    @Jack D

    Here's a picture of Feynman around age 21:

    http://ffden-2.phys.uaf.edu/213.web.stuff/Steve%20Houston/feynman/early.jpg

  53. @ATX Hipster
    Feynman did excellent work for the Rogers Commission, but having honest and competent management at NASA and its contractors would have been even better.

    I'm hoping that the proliferation of space companies in the private sector will prevent another accident like the Challenger. Space flight is inherently risky, but it doesn't help when you have bureaucrats ignoring engineers and adjusting the risk guidelines to accommodate faulty o-rings rather than fixing the o-rings. My understanding is that the culture at SpaceX, for instance, is very engineer-driven rather than management-driven. This is opposite any government agency.

    Replies: @Harry Baldwin, @Brutusale, @Mr. Anon, @MarkinLA

    The sad thing is that NASA is even more institutionally incompetent today that it was thirty years ago.

  54. @Jack D
    It's ironic that you choose Feynman as the poster boy for "competent white man". When Feynman was applying to grad school at Princeton, a Princeton physics professor wrote to a colleague at MIT, " Is Feynman Jewish? We have no definite rule against Jews but have to keep their proportion in our department reasonably small because of the difficulty of placing them." MIT wrote back that he was in fact Jewish but that Feynman's "physiognomy and manner, however, show no trace of this characteristic and I do not believe the matter will be any great handicap." [Either the professors were not being completely honest or they were oblivious - Feynman had one hell of a New Yawk accent which was more than a trace Jewish.] So in his time (at least in the early days), Feynman was seen more as an honorary white man than a full member of the club.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Steve Sailer, @Charles Erwin Wilson, @Lot

    “So in his time (at least in the early days), Feynman was seen more as an honorary white man than a full member of the club.”:

    Yeah, perhaps not unlike the way a gentile would nowadays be viewed at Harvard.

  55. @Erik Sieven
    "Personally, I’m more sympathetic to the idea of racial quotas as reparations, but just for two finite groups: descendants of black slaves in the United States and registered members of American Indian tribes."
    in a similar way I think it would be good to make it even easier for East European Sinti and Roma to Germany, give them training (when they want to) and let them work. They should have some credit because of what was done to them in WWII. Of course jews should have the right to settle in Germany, too. Though this sadly has become less and less attractive over the years.
    But Arabs and Subsaharan Africans (with the exception of Hereros) should not have such a right.

    Replies: @Jack D

    In recent years, there has been an effort to universalize the Holocaust so the plight of Roma, gays, etc. has been played up to the point where you might think that there were almost as many of them who were victims as Jews. Here are the actual #’s for Auschwitz:

    Jews (1,095,000 deported to Auschwitz, of whom 960,000 died)
    Poles (147,000 deported, of whom 74,000 died)
    Roma (23,000 deported, of whom 21,000 died)
    Soviet prisoners of war (15,000 deported and died)
    Other nationalities [the gays are in there somewhere] (25,000 deported, of whom 12,000 died)

    • Replies: @Erik Sieven
    @Jack D

    of course much more Jews were murdered than Roma, I just mentioned the Roma because in the last year among the 1.3 million people or so who came to Germany as refugees at least in the beginning of the year there was a substantial share of Roma

    , @Matra
    @Jack D

    In recent years, there has been an effort to universalize the Holocaust so the plight of Roma, gays, etc. has been played up to the point where you might think that there were almost as many of them who were victims as Jews.

    But it is mostly Jews, not Gentiles, who are pushing this idea that the Gypsies and homosexuals should get their share of the Holocaust victimhood. Paul Gottfried has written on this subject.

  56. @Yak-15
    Bringing up the Iraq War is interesting because I believe it is indicative of our persistent culture wars.

    I think a lot of Americans supported the war because they viscerally hated those who were opposed to it.

    Many people did not consider the important realist consequences of toppling Saddam. Perhaps many were too daft to realize the implications as well. Regardless, it seems that it was more important for many of the war-hungry right to beat the smug, urban, NYT liberal than it was to pursue sound international policy.

    Maybe one can say the same about today's contentious liberal about pursuing unlimited immigration.

    Replies: @Sparkling Wiggle, @IBC, @Altai, @AnotherDad, @MarkinLA

    This is a problem with environmentalism, a lot of people on the right tend to dismiss global warming simply because they despise the likes of Gwyneth Paltrow, but Gwyneth Paltrow didn’t write the scientific papers and reports. She doesn’t man the monitoring stations or design the experiments. A bunch of geeky white guys physicists, engineers and chemists did and they were doing it long before it became a cultural or political issue. You may as well dismiss HIV causing AIDs because of how annoying people are about virtue signalling about HIV victims since they tend to be African. Then you get into the whole Ross Perot, let’s harvest everything to make a quick buck for a generation or two because those smug leftists in their cities love nature so much.

    It does bring up the fact that life is too complex for any individual to make decisions about everything by themselves. We vote for people we trust have our interests at heart, that’s why the middle class left and non-whites are going so insane about Trump, it’s not what he has pledged or is likely to achieve, it’s the visceral sense that he seems to care about the group they have identified as their enemy.

  57. The most deplorable one [AKA "Fourth doorman of the apocalypse"] says:

    This is a problem with environmentalism, a lot of people on the right tend to dismiss global warming simply because they despise the likes of Gwyneth Paltrow, but Gwyneth Paltrow didn’t write the scientific papers and reports. She doesn’t man the monitoring stations or design the experiments. A bunch of geeky white guys physicists, engineers and chemists did and they were doing it long before it became a cultural or political issue.

    And yet Freeman Dyson called bullshit on it, and I suspect Richard Feynman would have as well.

    Indeed, as far as I can tell, even Leif Svaalgard has called bullshit on it.

    • Replies: @Altai
    @The most deplorable one

    Freeman Dyson doesn't dispute CO2 driven anthropogenic climate change. He has just stated that he finds the backlash that doubters get to be excessive and unhelpful to having a good discussion of what the response should be. That it allows non-experts to drive the discourse on the issue and doesn't allow people to get a fuller understanding of what is going on, which would lead to a better public debate on different solutions.

    I don't know that I agree with him on this since people have a vested interest in wanting to believe there is no problem. I think all iSteve readers can think of lots of issue where the public tendency to throw your head in the sand has had some poor outcomes.

    Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson

  58. @Ed
    Somewhat related. In DC, management of Metro, DC's subway system, is considering shutting down sections of the system or even the entire system for 6 months to conduct maintenance.

    The fact that a major system is facing such monumental maintenance issues is stunning. However when you discover the hiring culture of Metro it all makes sense. It's been a job program for blacks for years. So Steve while I do agree in the main that affirmative action should be targeted, it should not be used in critical areas.
    http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/03/31/us/lengthy-shutdowns-in-washington-dc-metro-system-are-possible.html?_r=0

    http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/mar/26/metro-derailed-by-culture-of-complacence-incompete/?page=all

    Replies: @Diversity Heretic

    Is the DC Metro becoming a form of Atlanta’s MARTA: Moving Africans Rapidly Through Atlanta? Pity that the system isn’t working; it was a good system when I was there between 1985 and 2004.

  59. I don’t think ‘because of slave ancestry’ would fly today Steve, because that connotes no virtue in the recipient, it’s strictly a handout, pity. If the recipients ‘bring diversity’ though, then they bring some good. In these days of human dignity above all else, you can’t publically use your true reason of ‘soft reparations’. Oh what a tangled web we weave, and how strongly it distorts everything.

  60. elites push reparations to gut whitey and deflect from their own crimes

  61. Control F “immi..” 0 results = fail

  62. @Yak-15
    Bringing up the Iraq War is interesting because I believe it is indicative of our persistent culture wars.

    I think a lot of Americans supported the war because they viscerally hated those who were opposed to it.

    Many people did not consider the important realist consequences of toppling Saddam. Perhaps many were too daft to realize the implications as well. Regardless, it seems that it was more important for many of the war-hungry right to beat the smug, urban, NYT liberal than it was to pursue sound international policy.

    Maybe one can say the same about today's contentious liberal about pursuing unlimited immigration.

    Replies: @Sparkling Wiggle, @IBC, @Altai, @AnotherDad, @MarkinLA

    Maybe one can say the same about today’s contentious liberal about pursuing unlimited immigration.

    Except that immigration is critically important and the Iraq war is pretty much entirely inconsequential. (To the US not Iraq.)

    The Iraq War cost maybe a trillion dollars, killed 5000 American soldiers, injured maybe 10 times that number. It killed based on these generous international estimates 100-200k Iraqis, almost all of them not by America or it’s allies, but by terror attacks. Whether long term Iraq or the wider Arab world ends up better off or not is almost impossible to tell. (Short term various dictators keeping the lid on is more peaceful–which of course leftists decry as “American supported dictator”.)

    Leftist projects spend such money and screw stuff up on that scale … all the time. Heck taken over eight years the Soros\Democrat BLM agitation will probably have an American body count higher than 5000. If the leftists really push this through and we have massive depolicing and “disparate impact” pushing 70s style criminal leniency, the body count will end up over a generation will be 100K+, plus even more rapes, robberies, etc. But it will all be so much more diffuse and the NYT will run thumbsuckers about “root causes”.

    People prattling on about the Iraq war being some giant “biggest disaster of all time” thing are dishonest or fools. We spent 1% of our GDP for a few years to further screw up an Arab “nation”–a Franco-Brit kludge of mutually antagonistic ethnic\religious groups and tribes–that was already screwed up.

    50 years hence, my children, grandchildren, great-grand children will be living in an immigration created dystopia, far, far, far from what America could have been because of leftist silliness, virtue signally and ethnic hatred. No one will give a shit about the Iraq war.

    • Replies: @vinteuil
    @AnotherDad

    "People prattling on about the Iraq war being some giant 'biggest disaster of all time' thing are dishonest or fools. We spent 1% of our GDP for a few years to further screw up an Arab 'nation'–a Franco-Brit kludge of mutually antagonistic ethnic\religious groups and tribes–that was already screwed up."

    Yes. This.

    Knowing what we now know, the "Iraq Attaq," and, more particularly, the half-assed "nation-building" effort that followed, was undoubtedly a mistake.

    But it wasn't even remotely comparable to our foolish & disastrous interventions in WWI, WWII, and Vietnam.

    Replies: @Diversity Heretic, @Charles Erwin Wilson

    , @Rob McX
    @AnotherDad

    There's more to the Iraq war than that. It's part of a wider project of destabilising the Muslim world which is driving millions of its inhabitants into Europe (which is another reason the neocons are in favour of it). Even if you consider Iraq alone, the invasion turned a fairly stable country into a Mad Max zone, killing at least 100 000 of its people and ruining the lives of millions of others. That's enough to kindle a hatred for America that'll last generations, if not centuries.

  63. Looking in the rearview mirror, with the benefit of experience, much in history will be discovered to have been an ‘inequity.’ Out of place, out of context, such occurrences/practices will appear as shameful depredations, while in real time were very much the status quo. Changing the status quo is hard, but once done, it doesn’t answer the inequity, but rather incentivizes the search for ever more inequities of the past in need of ‘fixing.’

    AA is just one of many ‘feel good’ legislative concepts that defy logic. Much civil rights-type legislation (banking, housing, public accommodation, employment, Title IX, etc.) are similarly positioned, as just democracy in action, i.e. the peoples’ representatives voted for it. And all despite the regularly occurring reality of second-order effects known as unintended consequences. The rightness or wrongness is merely about whose axe is being ground–or ‘who, whom’ in the iSteve colloquialism.

    Madison thought competing factions would keep a lid on the extremes of reactionary impulses, negating the idea of power politics. His theory assumes it (competing factions) works in practice, while in practice, the theory doesn’t work. What works is closer to Mencken’s idea of the ‘people getting it good and hard.’

  64. Personally, I’m more sympathetic to the idea of racial quotas as reparations, but just for two finite groups: descendants of black slaves in the United States and registered members of American Indian tribes.

    That’s ridiculous. Determining who gets “reparations” based on past events cannot result in anything but a regression ad absurdam. Thomas Jefferson addressed the question of slavery in Notes on the State of Virginia and the original draft of the Declaration of Independence, and he argued that the British were to blame for slavery. He was right — slavery had been in existence in the colonies for 150 years before American independence. And it was the fault of not only the British, but the Dutch, Portugese, Spaniards, and French as well. Should they all pay reparations to blacks?

    As far as the Indians were concerned, the U.S. government treated them as foreign nations, and concluded treaties with the tribes willing to do so. That was the situation until the 1920s, when Congress made the Indians citizens (which contradicts the principle of “Indian sovereignty.”)

    In any case, world history is little more than one group of people killing others and taking their land. Those who win write history. Those who lose — well, they lose. Where do you draw the line? My ancestors were Polish. Am I entitled to ca$h in from the Austrians, Prussians, Germans, and Russians?

    And how about the Jews of Israel? Should they pay reparations to Palestinians and Ottoman Turks? Or should Muslims pay reparations to them, since Jews lived in Israel for several millenia before Islam was even founded?

    Or should the Italians pay reparations to the Jews, since it was the Romans who exiled the majority of Jews from Judea in the second century?

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    @Dr. X

    We didn't get to the point that only white males can be discriminated against in one fell swoop and we won't push back that way either. If you want to end it, it will have to be done piece by piece taking it apart slowly.

  65. @Das
    @Whiskey

    The initial justification for affirmative action was just straight up: "reparations for blacks." Read the initial speeches given by LBJ and Nixon.

    Conservatives challenged this in court, saying "Why are a bunch of public universities that never practiced discrimination against blacks paying reparations to blacks?" And as a result, affirmative action in public universities was upheld, but only on diversity grounds.

    The long-term effect of this has been for "diversity" to be elevated to the point of religion, and for anyone who is not a white male to be eligible for various preferences, because hey, they add to diversity.

    A far superior policy would be just to give blacks a 10% quota and cancel the oppression Olympics. But the courts have ruled quotas unconstitutional, and we're stuck with the far worse diversity racket.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @stillCARealist

    Yes. When I worked for the state, back in the 90’s, “diversity” meant primarily jobs for immigrants. As long as you don’t fit the purest definition of WHITE, then you get the job. The most qualified non-whites for the jobs were Asian immigrants: Chinese, Indian, Filipino, ME. There were a few blacks and hispanics, but even they were more likely to be from Africa or South America.

    I really do wonder if American blacks understand that affirmative action has been hijacked like this.

    Do the actual American Indians even care? There’s plenty of fake ones (also known as “white people”) who use their bloodlines for government jobs, and are perfectly cynical about it.

  66. Feynman pretty much admitted that he was prompted to do his little experiment by an Air Force officer on the commission. The truth was going to come out, but Feynman was allowed to be the public face of understanding the accident cause. And he really enjoyed being center stage!

  67. I’m not convinced Colin Powell or Condoleeza Rice ever had any actual decision making power as to whether or not to go to war in Iraq. More likely, that was already a done deal once Bush was president. Perhaps it would have happened no matter who was president. Not everyone who gets called a decision maker has power to actually contribute to making decisions.

  68. @Harry Baldwin
    @ATX Hipster

    I recall that the Challenger launch was postponed several times due to the cold weather, and ABC's Sam Donaldson kept bringing this up on "This Week with David Brinkley" as evidence of NASA's incompetence. Then NASA launched it and it blew up. I wonder if the decision-makers of NASA felt pressured by the carping of Sam Donaldson and others. And I wonder if Sam Donaldson ever feels some responsibility, however minor.

    Replies: @ATX Hipster, @NOTA

    If NASA let Sam Donaldson’s questions convince them to launch when conditions were unsafe, the fault wasn’t Donaldson’s. He had no power to order them to launch, and no expertise on which to advise them.

  69. @Ed
    @Das

    The descendants of US slaves tend to be quite dumb about this issue. They vigorously defend other groups & the diversity cult more than anyone. They think by putting more people in the "people of color" tent they'll have sufficient numbers to take it to the Man. A few are learning that many of their non-white allies despise them even more than whites.

    Replies: @Jefferson

    “The descendants of US slaves tend to be quite dumb about this issue. They vigorously defend other groups & the diversity cult more than anyone. They think by putting more people in the “people of color” tent they’ll have sufficient numbers to take it to the Man. A few are learning that many of their non-white allies despise them even more than whites.”

    A lot of rappers are recording songs about murdering Donald Trump, even though he has employed more Blacks than Hildabeast ever has. Everytime she makes 6 figure speeches for Wall Street, she is not helping create Black jobs. Yet the Negroes still treat Hildabeast like royalty.

  70. American college campuses have little political diversity, but they have plenty of skin color diversity. The totalitarian anti-free speech communists on college campuses range from Whiter than sour crean to Blacker than space and everything other pigmentation in between.

    Political diversity only exists in Whitopias.

  71. @The most deplorable one

    This is a problem with environmentalism, a lot of people on the right tend to dismiss global warming simply because they despise the likes of Gwyneth Paltrow, but Gwyneth Paltrow didn’t write the scientific papers and reports. She doesn’t man the monitoring stations or design the experiments. A bunch of geeky white guys physicists, engineers and chemists did and they were doing it long before it became a cultural or political issue.
     
    And yet Freeman Dyson called bullshit on it, and I suspect Richard Feynman would have as well.

    Indeed, as far as I can tell, even Leif Svaalgard has called bullshit on it.

    Replies: @Altai

    Freeman Dyson doesn’t dispute CO2 driven anthropogenic climate change. He has just stated that he finds the backlash that doubters get to be excessive and unhelpful to having a good discussion of what the response should be. That it allows non-experts to drive the discourse on the issue and doesn’t allow people to get a fuller understanding of what is going on, which would lead to a better public debate on different solutions.

    I don’t know that I agree with him on this since people have a vested interest in wanting to believe there is no problem. I think all iSteve readers can think of lots of issue where the public tendency to throw your head in the sand has had some poor outcomes.

    • Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson
    @Altai

    Ever heard of Chicken Little (or if you are a Brit, Chicken Licken)?

  72. @Bill Jones
    Reparations?

    Only if they are exclusively paid by slave owners. The idea that non-slave owners benefited from slavery is nonsense.

    If cheap illegal immigrants depress wages, what does slave labor do?

    The lot of black Americans is vastly superior than that of Africans.

    As Muhammed Ali famously said after visiting Zaire "Thank God my grand-daddy got on that boat."

    Replies: @South Texas GUy, @Reg Cæsar

    If cheap illegal immigrants depress wages, what does slave labor do?

    Many of the first settlers in the Upper Midwest and Plains were Southerners. Some today point this out with pride. But it seems more a matter befitting shame– the migrants couldn’t compete with the cheap alien labor back home.

    Yankees didn’t come until the arable land in the East got filled up.

  73. @AnotherDad
    @Yak-15


    Maybe one can say the same about today’s contentious liberal about pursuing unlimited immigration.
     
    Except that immigration is critically important and the Iraq war is pretty much entirely inconsequential. (To the US not Iraq.)

    The Iraq War cost maybe a trillion dollars, killed 5000 American soldiers, injured maybe 10 times that number. It killed based on these generous international estimates 100-200k Iraqis, almost all of them not by America or it's allies, but by terror attacks. Whether long term Iraq or the wider Arab world ends up better off or not is almost impossible to tell. (Short term various dictators keeping the lid on is more peaceful--which of course leftists decry as "American supported dictator".)

    Leftist projects spend such money and screw stuff up on that scale ... all the time. Heck taken over eight years the Soros\Democrat BLM agitation will probably have an American body count higher than 5000. If the leftists really push this through and we have massive depolicing and "disparate impact" pushing 70s style criminal leniency, the body count will end up over a generation will be 100K+, plus even more rapes, robberies, etc. But it will all be so much more diffuse and the NYT will run thumbsuckers about "root causes".

    People prattling on about the Iraq war being some giant "biggest disaster of all time" thing are dishonest or fools. We spent 1% of our GDP for a few years to further screw up an Arab "nation"--a Franco-Brit kludge of mutually antagonistic ethnic\religious groups and tribes--that was already screwed up.

    50 years hence, my children, grandchildren, great-grand children will be living in an immigration created dystopia, far, far, far from what America could have been because of leftist silliness, virtue signally and ethnic hatred. No one will give a shit about the Iraq war.

    Replies: @vinteuil, @Rob McX

    “People prattling on about the Iraq war being some giant ‘biggest disaster of all time’ thing are dishonest or fools. We spent 1% of our GDP for a few years to further screw up an Arab ‘nation’–a Franco-Brit kludge of mutually antagonistic ethnic\religious groups and tribes–that was already screwed up.”

    Yes. This.

    Knowing what we now know, the “Iraq Attaq,” and, more particularly, the half-assed “nation-building” effort that followed, was undoubtedly a mistake.

    But it wasn’t even remotely comparable to our foolish & disastrous interventions in WWI, WWII, and Vietnam.

    • Replies: @Diversity Heretic
    @vinteuil

    I still weigh in on the foolishness of the Spanish-American War--a wholly concocted conflict with a declining imperial power that posed no threat whatsoever to the United States. It involved us in cultures alien to us (the Carribean), gave us the continuing burden of Puerto Rico, put us on a collision course with Japan in the Pacific, after a brutal suppression of Philippine resistance.

    , @Charles Erwin Wilson
    @vinteuil

    WWI, yes - we should have stayed out.

    But WWII? Japan attacked us. Don't tell me about FDR and his oil embargo against Japan. If you want to resist don't sneak attack. But if you do, be ready for a whiplash.

    And BTW we had Vietnam won in 1972, but the Democrats betrayed the South Vietnamese in order to further communism.

    Democrats elevate perfidy to an art form, pretend betrayal is a vice, and turn their backs on the torture, tyranny and systemic murder that flourishes in their wake. That is why doing the wave in Havana is too cool for democrats. Can we wonder about their perspective on immigration and globalism?

    There is a reason Hillary Clinton is their Saint, and their moral universe makes a cesspool seem like a step up. We owe no allegiance to anything they start, perpetuate or insist that is a 'done deal'.

  74. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Can you just assume that “reparations” are just? That those who receive cash handouts or preferential treatment somehow deserve them because great-great-great-whomever was supposedly done dirt by–whom?–a white man, a state government, the United States government? The money will come out of the deepest pocket of all, the federal treasury, won’t it? Like the King’s body, the federal government transcends death. Or will this be done for practical or prudential reasons aside from settling questions of justice? That is, this is a simple way and straightforward way (no trying to disentangle skeins of individual guilt and innocence) to satisfy Blacks and Indians and shut them up? Don’t come back here again with your hand out. And suppose it doesn’t work (it won’t). Then what?

    • Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson
    @Anonymous

    Reparations are just as long as the recipient is willing to renounce said recipient's citizenship and decamp to a foreign jurisdiction, without retaining any claims regarding repatriation.

    I suspect that almost all taxpayers would double their taxes if it meant that the reparation recipient would depart forever from America.

  75. @Jack D
    @Erik Sieven

    In recent years, there has been an effort to universalize the Holocaust so the plight of Roma, gays, etc. has been played up to the point where you might think that there were almost as many of them who were victims as Jews. Here are the actual #'s for Auschwitz:

    Jews (1,095,000 deported to Auschwitz, of whom 960,000 died)
    Poles (147,000 deported, of whom 74,000 died)
    Roma (23,000 deported, of whom 21,000 died)
    Soviet prisoners of war (15,000 deported and died)
    Other nationalities [the gays are in there somewhere] (25,000 deported, of whom 12,000 died)

    Replies: @Erik Sieven, @Matra

    of course much more Jews were murdered than Roma, I just mentioned the Roma because in the last year among the 1.3 million people or so who came to Germany as refugees at least in the beginning of the year there was a substantial share of Roma

  76. @vinteuil
    @AnotherDad

    "People prattling on about the Iraq war being some giant 'biggest disaster of all time' thing are dishonest or fools. We spent 1% of our GDP for a few years to further screw up an Arab 'nation'–a Franco-Brit kludge of mutually antagonistic ethnic\religious groups and tribes–that was already screwed up."

    Yes. This.

    Knowing what we now know, the "Iraq Attaq," and, more particularly, the half-assed "nation-building" effort that followed, was undoubtedly a mistake.

    But it wasn't even remotely comparable to our foolish & disastrous interventions in WWI, WWII, and Vietnam.

    Replies: @Diversity Heretic, @Charles Erwin Wilson

    I still weigh in on the foolishness of the Spanish-American War–a wholly concocted conflict with a declining imperial power that posed no threat whatsoever to the United States. It involved us in cultures alien to us (the Carribean), gave us the continuing burden of Puerto Rico, put us on a collision course with Japan in the Pacific, after a brutal suppression of Philippine resistance.

  77. @Jack D
    @Erik Sieven

    In recent years, there has been an effort to universalize the Holocaust so the plight of Roma, gays, etc. has been played up to the point where you might think that there were almost as many of them who were victims as Jews. Here are the actual #'s for Auschwitz:

    Jews (1,095,000 deported to Auschwitz, of whom 960,000 died)
    Poles (147,000 deported, of whom 74,000 died)
    Roma (23,000 deported, of whom 21,000 died)
    Soviet prisoners of war (15,000 deported and died)
    Other nationalities [the gays are in there somewhere] (25,000 deported, of whom 12,000 died)

    Replies: @Erik Sieven, @Matra

    In recent years, there has been an effort to universalize the Holocaust so the plight of Roma, gays, etc. has been played up to the point where you might think that there were almost as many of them who were victims as Jews.

    But it is mostly Jews, not Gentiles, who are pushing this idea that the Gypsies and homosexuals should get their share of the Holocaust victimhood. Paul Gottfried has written on this subject.

  78. @Yak-15
    Bringing up the Iraq War is interesting because I believe it is indicative of our persistent culture wars.

    I think a lot of Americans supported the war because they viscerally hated those who were opposed to it.

    Many people did not consider the important realist consequences of toppling Saddam. Perhaps many were too daft to realize the implications as well. Regardless, it seems that it was more important for many of the war-hungry right to beat the smug, urban, NYT liberal than it was to pursue sound international policy.

    Maybe one can say the same about today's contentious liberal about pursuing unlimited immigration.

    Replies: @Sparkling Wiggle, @IBC, @Altai, @AnotherDad, @MarkinLA

    I think a lot of Americans supported the war because they viscerally hated those who were opposed to it.

    Many people did not consider the important realist consequences of toppling Saddam. Perhaps many were too daft to realize the implications as well.

    I don’t think so. Since the first gulf war went so well it had to do with the fact that this one would go well also. The actual war went exactly to plan. I doubt the average American gave any thought to the after war period.

    The reason why the average guy didn’t consider the consequences of toppling Saddam is because few Americans know anything about that part of the world and were depending on the leadership of the country who were the supposed experts. Of course, the experts knew it would turn the place into a shit-hole, that was a feature not a bug for the Israel firsters.

  79. @Anonymous
    I, too, would not object if blacks/African-Americans and perhaps American Indians/Native Americans were givern preferential treatment.

    The idea that everyone who is not a white heterosexual male deserves preferential treatment is both immoral and illogical.

    One would think opponents of this form of affirmative action would be making this point especially to blacks: Everyone and his cousin is free-riding on your past. Does that not bother you?

    The left has had, and continues to have, tremendous success exploiting black Americans and their history as a maul or wedge tp split through resistance and obtain what it wants. They dress all their constituenceis in the clothes of the balck American struggle for civil rights. No one ever calls them out on this. In part, I suppose, because the coalition of the fringes is simply too big and too powerful already and stifles such criticism. Also, lacks are hardly the best led and organized political bloc in the US.

    I was hoping that Trump, if nominated, might take up this point in the general election and ask blacks, "So remind me why is it that rich women and gays and lesbians and conquistadors and all sorts of immigrants should also be beneficiaries of affirmative action? How's that working out for ya?"

    Replies: @MarkinLA

    When the La Raza types were trying to make amnesty a civil rights issue there were some blacks who objected.

  80. @ATX Hipster
    Feynman did excellent work for the Rogers Commission, but having honest and competent management at NASA and its contractors would have been even better.

    I'm hoping that the proliferation of space companies in the private sector will prevent another accident like the Challenger. Space flight is inherently risky, but it doesn't help when you have bureaucrats ignoring engineers and adjusting the risk guidelines to accommodate faulty o-rings rather than fixing the o-rings. My understanding is that the culture at SpaceX, for instance, is very engineer-driven rather than management-driven. This is opposite any government agency.

    Replies: @Harry Baldwin, @Brutusale, @Mr. Anon, @MarkinLA

    As long as you have deadlines, you will have screw-ups as people rush to meet the deadlines.

  81. So in 2050 when I become a minority, will I gets me some of dat diversity affirmative action? Yeah, I didn’t think so.

  82. @Jack D
    It's ironic that you choose Feynman as the poster boy for "competent white man". When Feynman was applying to grad school at Princeton, a Princeton physics professor wrote to a colleague at MIT, " Is Feynman Jewish? We have no definite rule against Jews but have to keep their proportion in our department reasonably small because of the difficulty of placing them." MIT wrote back that he was in fact Jewish but that Feynman's "physiognomy and manner, however, show no trace of this characteristic and I do not believe the matter will be any great handicap." [Either the professors were not being completely honest or they were oblivious - Feynman had one hell of a New Yawk accent which was more than a trace Jewish.] So in his time (at least in the early days), Feynman was seen more as an honorary white man than a full member of the club.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Steve Sailer, @Charles Erwin Wilson, @Lot

    “I am become Death, destroyer of worlds” pretty much ended that argument.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Steve Sailer

    That was Oppenheimer. Feynman had zero interest in history or literature - "the Bhagavad what?", he would have said . I actually liked Bainbridge's line better - "Now we are all bastards."

    Very worthwhile tape of Feynman's Los Alamos recollections here:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTRVlUT665U

    A better way to spend an hour than watching a Friends rerun.

    At the end, Feynman said that for years after the war, whenever he saw a new bridge or skyscraper going up, his first thought was, "why are you wasting your time?", because he was convinced that it was all going to get blown up with his new toy.

  83. @Zachary Latif
    Incidentally if a blood quantum was used for descendants of slaves as they are used for that of Native Americans then all of a sudden black identity would be the preserve of a previous few (Native Americans seem to have zero interested in their Hispanic kinfolk, who admittedly have significant traces of indigenous ancestry)..

    Replies: @MarkinLA

    The US government did not fight the Indians in Mexico and central America and put them on reservations. It isn’t about who you are genetically related to it is about what happened to your direct ancestors.

    Blacks should be required to show that they are descended from blacks who were here in the US prior to 1900 since there was very little immigration by blacks from 1865 to 1900.

    Indians should be recognized members of a tribe.

  84. @Dr. X

    Personally, I’m more sympathetic to the idea of racial quotas as reparations, but just for two finite groups: descendants of black slaves in the United States and registered members of American Indian tribes.
     
    That's ridiculous. Determining who gets "reparations" based on past events cannot result in anything but a regression ad absurdam. Thomas Jefferson addressed the question of slavery in Notes on the State of Virginia and the original draft of the Declaration of Independence, and he argued that the British were to blame for slavery. He was right -- slavery had been in existence in the colonies for 150 years before American independence. And it was the fault of not only the British, but the Dutch, Portugese, Spaniards, and French as well. Should they all pay reparations to blacks?

    As far as the Indians were concerned, the U.S. government treated them as foreign nations, and concluded treaties with the tribes willing to do so. That was the situation until the 1920s, when Congress made the Indians citizens (which contradicts the principle of "Indian sovereignty.")

    In any case, world history is little more than one group of people killing others and taking their land. Those who win write history. Those who lose -- well, they lose. Where do you draw the line? My ancestors were Polish. Am I entitled to ca$h in from the Austrians, Prussians, Germans, and Russians?

    And how about the Jews of Israel? Should they pay reparations to Palestinians and Ottoman Turks? Or should Muslims pay reparations to them, since Jews lived in Israel for several millenia before Islam was even founded?

    Or should the Italians pay reparations to the Jews, since it was the Romans who exiled the majority of Jews from Judea in the second century?

    Replies: @MarkinLA

    We didn’t get to the point that only white males can be discriminated against in one fell swoop and we won’t push back that way either. If you want to end it, it will have to be done piece by piece taking it apart slowly.

  85. There was a woman on the Challenger commission – a lesbian, no less. Sally Ride.

    Her one admittedly impressive resume line item aside, her presence on that commission basically amounted to window dressing and accomplished about as much.

  86. @AnotherDad
    @Yak-15


    Maybe one can say the same about today’s contentious liberal about pursuing unlimited immigration.
     
    Except that immigration is critically important and the Iraq war is pretty much entirely inconsequential. (To the US not Iraq.)

    The Iraq War cost maybe a trillion dollars, killed 5000 American soldiers, injured maybe 10 times that number. It killed based on these generous international estimates 100-200k Iraqis, almost all of them not by America or it's allies, but by terror attacks. Whether long term Iraq or the wider Arab world ends up better off or not is almost impossible to tell. (Short term various dictators keeping the lid on is more peaceful--which of course leftists decry as "American supported dictator".)

    Leftist projects spend such money and screw stuff up on that scale ... all the time. Heck taken over eight years the Soros\Democrat BLM agitation will probably have an American body count higher than 5000. If the leftists really push this through and we have massive depolicing and "disparate impact" pushing 70s style criminal leniency, the body count will end up over a generation will be 100K+, plus even more rapes, robberies, etc. But it will all be so much more diffuse and the NYT will run thumbsuckers about "root causes".

    People prattling on about the Iraq war being some giant "biggest disaster of all time" thing are dishonest or fools. We spent 1% of our GDP for a few years to further screw up an Arab "nation"--a Franco-Brit kludge of mutually antagonistic ethnic\religious groups and tribes--that was already screwed up.

    50 years hence, my children, grandchildren, great-grand children will be living in an immigration created dystopia, far, far, far from what America could have been because of leftist silliness, virtue signally and ethnic hatred. No one will give a shit about the Iraq war.

    Replies: @vinteuil, @Rob McX

    There’s more to the Iraq war than that. It’s part of a wider project of destabilising the Muslim world which is driving millions of its inhabitants into Europe (which is another reason the neocons are in favour of it). Even if you consider Iraq alone, the invasion turned a fairly stable country into a Mad Max zone, killing at least 100 000 of its people and ruining the lives of millions of others. That’s enough to kindle a hatred for America that’ll last generations, if not centuries.

  87. @Altai
    @The most deplorable one

    Freeman Dyson doesn't dispute CO2 driven anthropogenic climate change. He has just stated that he finds the backlash that doubters get to be excessive and unhelpful to having a good discussion of what the response should be. That it allows non-experts to drive the discourse on the issue and doesn't allow people to get a fuller understanding of what is going on, which would lead to a better public debate on different solutions.

    I don't know that I agree with him on this since people have a vested interest in wanting to believe there is no problem. I think all iSteve readers can think of lots of issue where the public tendency to throw your head in the sand has had some poor outcomes.

    Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson

    Ever heard of Chicken Little (or if you are a Brit, Chicken Licken)?

  88. @vinteuil
    @AnotherDad

    "People prattling on about the Iraq war being some giant 'biggest disaster of all time' thing are dishonest or fools. We spent 1% of our GDP for a few years to further screw up an Arab 'nation'–a Franco-Brit kludge of mutually antagonistic ethnic\religious groups and tribes–that was already screwed up."

    Yes. This.

    Knowing what we now know, the "Iraq Attaq," and, more particularly, the half-assed "nation-building" effort that followed, was undoubtedly a mistake.

    But it wasn't even remotely comparable to our foolish & disastrous interventions in WWI, WWII, and Vietnam.

    Replies: @Diversity Heretic, @Charles Erwin Wilson

    WWI, yes – we should have stayed out.

    But WWII? Japan attacked us. Don’t tell me about FDR and his oil embargo against Japan. If you want to resist don’t sneak attack. But if you do, be ready for a whiplash.

    And BTW we had Vietnam won in 1972, but the Democrats betrayed the South Vietnamese in order to further communism.

    Democrats elevate perfidy to an art form, pretend betrayal is a vice, and turn their backs on the torture, tyranny and systemic murder that flourishes in their wake. That is why doing the wave in Havana is too cool for democrats. Can we wonder about their perspective on immigration and globalism?

    There is a reason Hillary Clinton is their Saint, and their moral universe makes a cesspool seem like a step up. We owe no allegiance to anything they start, perpetuate or insist that is a ‘done deal’.

  89. @Anonymous
    Can you just assume that "reparations" are just? That those who receive cash handouts or preferential treatment somehow deserve them because great-great-great-whomever was supposedly done dirt by--whom?--a white man, a state government, the United States government? The money will come out of the deepest pocket of all, the federal treasury, won't it? Like the King's body, the federal government transcends death. Or will this be done for practical or prudential reasons aside from settling questions of justice? That is, this is a simple way and straightforward way (no trying to disentangle skeins of individual guilt and innocence) to satisfy Blacks and Indians and shut them up? Don't come back here again with your hand out. And suppose it doesn't work (it won’t). Then what?

    Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson

    Reparations are just as long as the recipient is willing to renounce said recipient’s citizenship and decamp to a foreign jurisdiction, without retaining any claims regarding repatriation.

    I suspect that almost all taxpayers would double their taxes if it meant that the reparation recipient would depart forever from America.

  90. @Jack D
    It's ironic that you choose Feynman as the poster boy for "competent white man". When Feynman was applying to grad school at Princeton, a Princeton physics professor wrote to a colleague at MIT, " Is Feynman Jewish? We have no definite rule against Jews but have to keep their proportion in our department reasonably small because of the difficulty of placing them." MIT wrote back that he was in fact Jewish but that Feynman's "physiognomy and manner, however, show no trace of this characteristic and I do not believe the matter will be any great handicap." [Either the professors were not being completely honest or they were oblivious - Feynman had one hell of a New Yawk accent which was more than a trace Jewish.] So in his time (at least in the early days), Feynman was seen more as an honorary white man than a full member of the club.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Steve Sailer, @Charles Erwin Wilson, @Lot

    Can you offer any instance where Feynman’s career was impeded by his absence as “a full member of the club”?

    Maybe you should look around. The dragons you think are fighting have been windmills for a half century, and mere images of windmills in most cases.

    Undermining the remnants of a once great republic may mean that you are the first victim of the swelling wave of stupidity that America’s trajectory is on right now.

    Look to your interests, or don’t be surprised when your anachronistic impulses leave you friendless.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Charles Erwin Wilson

    I just gave you an example - Feynman, one of the most brilliant minds of the 20th century, came within a hair of not getting into Princeton because he was Jewish. He also went to MIT undergrad because Columbia had already filled its Jewish quota for that year and would not take him

    In a way that was a long time ago and in a way it wasn't. It is literally within living memory - I just had dinner with my 94 year old MIL (4 years younger than Feynman) and she remembers that era well - the hotels she could not stay at, the jobs she could not get. Now that doesn't mean that you should burn down the Republic in order to take revenge, but it's not something that you can forget either.

    I think there is a difference between the old discrimination and the new affirmative action. In the old days they were discriminating against the undeniably competent, now they are discriminating in favor of the undeniably incompetent. I don't see the latter as the payback for the former. In fact it's idiotic to think so. It also hasn't escaped my notice that the black community is one of the last bastions (aside from the isteve readership) of widespread Antisemitism. This is the dirty little secret of why Sanders has not done well among black voters.

    Replies: @ben tillman

  91. @Steve Sailer
    @Jack D

    "I am become Death, destroyer of worlds" pretty much ended that argument.

    Replies: @Jack D

    That was Oppenheimer. Feynman had zero interest in history or literature – “the Bhagavad what?”, he would have said . I actually liked Bainbridge’s line better – “Now we are all bastards.”

    Very worthwhile tape of Feynman’s Los Alamos recollections here:

    A better way to spend an hour than watching a Friends rerun.

    At the end, Feynman said that for years after the war, whenever he saw a new bridge or skyscraper going up, his first thought was, “why are you wasting your time?”, because he was convinced that it was all going to get blown up with his new toy.

  92. @Charles Erwin Wilson
    @Jack D

    Can you offer any instance where Feynman's career was impeded by his absence as "a full member of the club"?

    Maybe you should look around. The dragons you think are fighting have been windmills for a half century, and mere images of windmills in most cases.

    Undermining the remnants of a once great republic may mean that you are the first victim of the swelling wave of stupidity that America's trajectory is on right now.

    Look to your interests, or don't be surprised when your anachronistic impulses leave you friendless.

    Replies: @Jack D

    I just gave you an example – Feynman, one of the most brilliant minds of the 20th century, came within a hair of not getting into Princeton because he was Jewish. He also went to MIT undergrad because Columbia had already filled its Jewish quota for that year and would not take him

    In a way that was a long time ago and in a way it wasn’t. It is literally within living memory – I just had dinner with my 94 year old MIL (4 years younger than Feynman) and she remembers that era well – the hotels she could not stay at, the jobs she could not get. Now that doesn’t mean that you should burn down the Republic in order to take revenge, but it’s not something that you can forget either.

    I think there is a difference between the old discrimination and the new affirmative action. In the old days they were discriminating against the undeniably competent, now they are discriminating in favor of the undeniably incompetent. I don’t see the latter as the payback for the former. In fact it’s idiotic to think so. It also hasn’t escaped my notice that the black community is one of the last bastions (aside from the isteve readership) of widespread Antisemitism. This is the dirty little secret of why Sanders has not done well among black voters.

    • Replies: @ben tillman
    @Jack D


    In a way that was a long time ago and in a way it wasn’t. It is literally within living memory – I just had dinner with my 94 year old MIL (4 years younger than Feynman) and she remembers that era well – the hotels she could not stay at, the jobs she could not get. Now that doesn’t mean that you should burn down the Republic in order to take revenge, but it’s not something that you can forget either.
     
    Give me a break. Those people had every right to do what they did. The notion of "revenge" for non-wrong-doing is outrageous.

    Replies: @Jack D

  93. @Das
    @boogerbently

    Right. But instead of just going to a relatively small, targeted group: non-immigrant blacks and registered Native Americans (maybe 13% of the population), all those benefits are divvied up among women, Hispanics, and every other group that can claim to be somehow contributing to "Diversity."

    For this trend you really have to blame moderates on the Supreme Court like Powell and O'Connor, who opposed affirmative action as reparations but accepted the pro-diversity argument.

    Instead of scaling back affirmative action, as they might have intended, they just entrenched it further by spreading the benefits around to larger, more politically influential groups.

    Replies: @Ed, @ben tillman

    Instead of scaling back affirmative action, as they might have intended, they just entrenched it further by spreading the benefits around to larger, more politically influential groups.

    You are far too charitable. No one on the Supreme Court could be stupid enough to think that removing all limitations on anti-white discrimination could scale such discrimination back.

  94. @Jack D
    @Charles Erwin Wilson

    I just gave you an example - Feynman, one of the most brilliant minds of the 20th century, came within a hair of not getting into Princeton because he was Jewish. He also went to MIT undergrad because Columbia had already filled its Jewish quota for that year and would not take him

    In a way that was a long time ago and in a way it wasn't. It is literally within living memory - I just had dinner with my 94 year old MIL (4 years younger than Feynman) and she remembers that era well - the hotels she could not stay at, the jobs she could not get. Now that doesn't mean that you should burn down the Republic in order to take revenge, but it's not something that you can forget either.

    I think there is a difference between the old discrimination and the new affirmative action. In the old days they were discriminating against the undeniably competent, now they are discriminating in favor of the undeniably incompetent. I don't see the latter as the payback for the former. In fact it's idiotic to think so. It also hasn't escaped my notice that the black community is one of the last bastions (aside from the isteve readership) of widespread Antisemitism. This is the dirty little secret of why Sanders has not done well among black voters.

    Replies: @ben tillman

    In a way that was a long time ago and in a way it wasn’t. It is literally within living memory – I just had dinner with my 94 year old MIL (4 years younger than Feynman) and she remembers that era well – the hotels she could not stay at, the jobs she could not get. Now that doesn’t mean that you should burn down the Republic in order to take revenge, but it’s not something that you can forget either.

    Give me a break. Those people had every right to do what they did. The notion of “revenge” for non-wrong-doing is outrageous.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @ben tillman

    Putting aside whether such acts were illegal pre 1964, if you can't see why racial discrimination is morally wrong, I have nothing more to say to you.

    Replies: @ben tillman

  95. @ben tillman
    @Jack D


    In a way that was a long time ago and in a way it wasn’t. It is literally within living memory – I just had dinner with my 94 year old MIL (4 years younger than Feynman) and she remembers that era well – the hotels she could not stay at, the jobs she could not get. Now that doesn’t mean that you should burn down the Republic in order to take revenge, but it’s not something that you can forget either.
     
    Give me a break. Those people had every right to do what they did. The notion of "revenge" for non-wrong-doing is outrageous.

    Replies: @Jack D

    Putting aside whether such acts were illegal pre 1964, if you can’t see why racial discrimination is morally wrong, I have nothing more to say to you.

    • Replies: @ben tillman
    @Jack D


    Putting aside whether such acts were illegal pre 1964, if you can’t see why racial discrimination is morally wrong, I have nothing more to say to you.
     
    Discrimination is a fundamental human right and can never be morally wrong.
  96. @Jack D
    It's ironic that you choose Feynman as the poster boy for "competent white man". When Feynman was applying to grad school at Princeton, a Princeton physics professor wrote to a colleague at MIT, " Is Feynman Jewish? We have no definite rule against Jews but have to keep their proportion in our department reasonably small because of the difficulty of placing them." MIT wrote back that he was in fact Jewish but that Feynman's "physiognomy and manner, however, show no trace of this characteristic and I do not believe the matter will be any great handicap." [Either the professors were not being completely honest or they were oblivious - Feynman had one hell of a New Yawk accent which was more than a trace Jewish.] So in his time (at least in the early days), Feynman was seen more as an honorary white man than a full member of the club.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Steve Sailer, @Charles Erwin Wilson, @Lot

    Here’s a picture of Feynman around age 21:

  97. @Anonymous
    Skin/sex diversity can't imbue intellectual ferment to a committee process; if anything it draws new non-intellectual factional lines to sap from the dedication of the group, basically enabling various parties' amours-propres or virtue signal motives (taking the woman's or NAM's side); see also unisex elementary schools. It's a further, separate degradation to lower the competence threshold for ad hoc bean-counting to get more kinds of pigment/genitalia in the room.

    But you typically wave off the real problem of meritocratic groupthink due to your obnoxious arrogant belief that a board of 10 Steve Sailers would always know best compared to some heterogenous selection of committed, minimally competent but idiosyncratic participants, like in a Michael Crichton novel about some alien virus on Antarctica. To you the only thing that matters on any question is cumulative SAT points, after all, when has the high-holy #2 pencil justice league ever missed something important. Running important decisions past the first 3,000 names in the Boston phone book, what with their "all walks of life" and "common sense," would be blasphemy against g.
    2015 addendum: when subject is Donald Trump, democratic will is good & aspie IQ fetishists are bad.

    Replies: @stillCARealist, @Space Ghost, @Jus' Sayin'..., @Dave Pinsen

    Sounds like you’re alluding to Crichton’s Andromeda Strain, which was set in New Mexico or somewhere. In that novel, the surgeon ends up figuring out the solution that the brainier scientists had missed.

  98. While it may be difficult to credit at times, women are well-known for having a more conformist personality, aka higher agreeableness. Adding women to a group should thus increase conformity. (Arguments based on individual counterexamples will in our modern spirit of group identities not be heeded.)

  99. @Jenner Ickham Errican
    Institutions that require both Diversity and Ability, oft end up with D’bility.

    Replies: @gruff

    And Aversity.

  100. @boogerbently
    "Personally, I’m more sympathetic to the idea of racial quotas as reparations,..."

    Personally, I think racial quotas, Affirmative Action, and all the other govt handouts
    ARE the "reparations".

    Replies: @Das, @anon

    Yes but they should only apply to the ppl concerned.

    It’s nonsense that all non-white immigrants are treated as a victim of slavery.

  101. @Jack D
    @ben tillman

    Putting aside whether such acts were illegal pre 1964, if you can't see why racial discrimination is morally wrong, I have nothing more to say to you.

    Replies: @ben tillman

    Putting aside whether such acts were illegal pre 1964, if you can’t see why racial discrimination is morally wrong, I have nothing more to say to you.

    Discrimination is a fundamental human right and can never be morally wrong.

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