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Deadlifting Is Largely a Pseudoscientific Swindle
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An anonymous iSteve contributor writes:

Deadlifting is a pseudoscientific measure of strength. It is mean to select people in artificial competitions using weights arranged or “constructed” in unnatural configurations of two heavy parts connected by a specific type and diameter of bar that you’d rarely find in the real world. People who really succeed in physical jobs in real life need to be able to deal with weights in all shapes, with handholds of varying types — or no handholds — and with surface textures and slipperinesses of various values.

In competition the deadlifted weight is only raised to waist height and returned straight down. In real life streetwise physical workers may need to place weights on truck beds located above their waists.

And real workers are not suckers who just use their hands and a piece of cloth to life. They know that there are gloves, ropes, and other tools that make the difference between a competition lifter and a successful teamster. In fact, they know that they can get fat and soft and just use a forklift or backhoe with a cable attached to it and lift anything they need to lift, even while wearing Birkenstocks, and play golf in the free time they create using such mechanical assistance.

 
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  1. Are you inviting a lynch mob?

    ============E

    • Replies: @Bard of Bumperstickers
    Until this installment of the Annals of iSteve, I'd always thought deadlifting was a Three Stooges episode. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6fFeJe7vVg
  2. Pretty accurate, I’d say.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    It's not: men who can deadlift a lot can generally lift all sorts of heavy things. They're called strongmen, and you can find videos of them lifting stuff like logs or atlas stones on YouTube.

    It's actually a pretty good analogy. Deadlifting strength will correlate highly with being a good strongman, like high IQ will correlate highly with being good at g-loaded jobs, but the correlation won't be perfect in either case. There are some skills particular to strongman competitions that you won't develop just from deadlifting or doing other barbell exercises: for example, with atlas stones, you need to lift with a rounded back, which isn't what you're supposed to do when you deadlift. Nevertheless, strength, like IQ, is broadly applicable.

    Where the analogy breaks down is that you can improve your strength a lot more than you can improve your IQ.

  3. Very nicely done, if an in-joke which those not following the Taleb-vs.-LotsofPeople affair will not get. Which makes me feel not guilty about OT’ing:

    Swindle

    I present 2019’s first media swindle:

    To add to list of the words that need retirement: “Maverick.”

    • Agree: Svigor
    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    Don't you leave me, Maverick!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC976fuQm4E
    , @raven lunatic
    the only good maverick is an agm-65
    , @anon
    Never heard of Ben Sasse before, nor seen him, nor do I know anything about him.

    But based on that picture alone, I got fifty bucks that says he's gay. Any takers?

    , @TelfoedJohn
    Flake and Sasse look like they were grown in the same vat.
    , @I, Libertine
    I was wondering what the hell this was satirizing. I don't have time to figure out why it's Taleb (someone of whom I've barely heard).

    Would you please briefly elaborate?
    , @peterike

    To add to list of the words that need retirement: “Maverick.”

     

    Lol! Yeah, Sasse and Romney -- "mavericks." Well, I guess it's true if it you mean it like THIS Maverick -- a mute, blinded flunky for the 1%.

    https://youtu.be/oahUWZ4JP6M
    , @Svigor
    "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

    They seem to mean "cuck."
    , @Wilkey
    The best joke I've heard about Mitt Romney is that he'll always stand by your side when he needs you.
  4. In fact, they know that they can get fat and soft and just use a forklift

    or backhoe

  5. An oft repeated phrase on construction sites: Don’t work harder, work smarter.

    • Agree: Kyle
    • Replies: @El Dato
    Yeah, in IT too.

    https://dilbert.com/strip/1995-08-27
    , @Mike1
    It's not. Chubby middle aged men working in their garage use that phrase.
    , @Autochthon
    I'm pretty confident the most often repeated phrases on any American construction-site now are Spanish, amigo.

    Repeating them is just another job Americans won't do.

  6. Do you even lift?

  7. @Dtbb
    An oft repeated phrase on construction sites: Don't work harder, work smarter.
  8. Mamma’s, don’t let your daughters grow up to be Hollabackhoe’s.

  9. @Redneck farmer
    Pretty accurate, I'd say.

    It’s not: men who can deadlift a lot can generally lift all sorts of heavy things. They’re called strongmen, and you can find videos of them lifting stuff like logs or atlas stones on YouTube.

    It’s actually a pretty good analogy. Deadlifting strength will correlate highly with being a good strongman, like high IQ will correlate highly with being good at g-loaded jobs, but the correlation won’t be perfect in either case. There are some skills particular to strongman competitions that you won’t develop just from deadlifting or doing other barbell exercises: for example, with atlas stones, you need to lift with a rounded back, which isn’t what you’re supposed to do when you deadlift. Nevertheless, strength, like IQ, is broadly applicable.

    Where the analogy breaks down is that you can improve your strength a lot more than you can improve your IQ.

    • Agree: The Z Blog, ben tillman
    • Replies: @Anonym
    Where the analogy breaks down is that you can improve your strength a lot more than you can improve your IQ.

    I am not so sure. A smart man can become a doctor or an engineer for example. But usually not both in a lifetime. A strong man might choose to become a football player or MMA athlete, but usually not both.

    In sports and professions you are relying on a lot of training, resting on the shoulders of giants to excel. If you had to try to figure it all out on your own it would be near impossible. Smart people without specific training will just say IANAL or IANAD or IANAE because it is accepted that you can't just substitute a high IQ for professionally recognized ability.

    The blank slate is wrong however. You need to be naturally strong to succeed at strength sports and you need to be naturally smart to succeed at high IQ professions.
    , @keuril
    Dave, what do you think of Starting Strength's emphasis on the squat over the deadlift? Did you shift your focus from squat to deadlift over time?
    , @anon
    And just like in IQ tests, men of Northern/Central European heritage tend to dominate in strength competitions that include deadlifting and strongman events such as log lifts and Atlas stones.
    , @E e
    Regarding improvement potential, I'd say that strength showing more capacity for improvement might be the result of universal elementary education, however imperfect. Physical education in the majority of schools is a joke, teaching math and reading is mostly just mediocre.
    , @midtown
    Agreed.
    , @Dtbb
    Why the alternating grip in deadlifting? Do you switch hands while training?
    , @racerealist88
    "g-loaded"

    Built into the test by way of item selection and analysis.

    The analogy was horrible.
  10. So what is deadlifting while believing in the genetic basis of average group IQ differences? — a dupopseudoscientific swindle?

    • Replies: @Sean

    So what is deadlifting while believing in the genetic basis of average group IQ differences?
     
    The ultimate isolation exercise.


    Robert Plomin says that according to the majority view of intelligence researchers, the core of intelligence is ‘the ability to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend complex ideas, learn quickly, and learn from experience’.

    IQ tests are a good test of intelligence, But they won't make you more intelligent. A max deadlift would be good test of strength, but really quite likely to hurt your back, and not just if you use that round back competitive style.


    https://tim.blog/2018/06/01/the-tim-ferriss-show-transcripts-art-de-vany/

    Tim Ferriss: Are you responsible for getting Nassim Taleb deadlifting?

    Art De Vany: My fault. Well, you remember the story about Nassim. If you read the back section of that little section you wrote for my book, because here he was, a kurtosis trader. That is, he used distributions with wild characteristics. He was buying out of the money calls and puts and living on the variance. [...]

    Art De Vany: Well, I told Nassim to start doing negative deadlifts if he wants to improve his deadlifts. Have somebody help you put the bar up, lower it. Pick a height, put it up again and lower it again.

    And put it up again and lower it again. I do almost all negatives now.

    Tim Ferriss: Why is that? Why are eccentrics so important?

    Art De Vany: I’m doing eccentrics for really three reasons, the main one being that they double your stem cell counts and the satellite cells in the muscle. They double them but they don’t exhaust them. A lot of people, if you double the stem cells that flood out, you may exhaust them because you may simply exhaust the ones in the niche.

     

    Doing negative deadlifts while scoffing at group differences and IQ will make you more successful and give you greater power to say a little more of what you actually think.
  11. Tangentially related: I used to have a moving business. Another mover once commented that he’d tried using weight lifters as mover’s helpers; they were a disappointment.

    Speaking for myself, I can recall a few episodes demanding sheer, raw power; for example, there’s the tale of the spinnet piano and the spiral staircase.

    However, and in general, care, stamina, and thinking through just how we were going to move the monster du jour were far more important than muscle mass.

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    Oh, really?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEYl9EbvdN8
    , @midtown
    I have in the past been a big weightlifter, and I found that moving was the purest practical application.
    , @Eric Novak
    Those weight-training movers were a disappointment because they're tired and sleepy from training. Squatting totals of 12,000 lbs for a session means lots of napping over the following 48-72 hrs as well as hobbling around like a car-wreck victim.
    , @racerealist88
    If you're not strong you'll be a horrible mover.
    , @Faraday's Bobcat
    The last time I moved, the head of the crew was a little wiry guy about 5'5". He showed up at sunrise, breakfasted on black coffee and smokes, and proceeded to put on a display of strength and endurance such as I have never seen. At one point he carried a solid oak chest of drawers down a flight of stairs by himself. It was like watching a chimpanzee bodyslam a grizzly bear. Recalling this I seriously wonder whether he was on crystal meth or something.
    , @Ray Huffman
    Tangentially related: I used to have a moving business. Another mover once commented that he’d tried using weight lifters as mover’s helpers; they were a disappointment.

    The kettlebell enthusiasts talk a lot about "functional strength." There's probably something to that.
  12. Deadlifting seems to be the lone sop to people with long levers (arms at least) among the so-called power lifts. A reasonable part of success comes down to biomechanics after technique and strength in those lifts. The shorter the distance the limbs must move to complete the distance, and the larger the muscles to partake in the lift, the greater the total.

    E.g. in a bench press you want to have a deep chest and short arms, and make your technique emphasize this. It is more a test of force than power in the physics sense, though it is dynamic.

    A long limbed guy could do more physical work in the one lift, but this is not measured. Where is this output competitively measured?

    I believe you call them “sports”.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    People with long arms usually have long legs too.
    , @racerealist88
    My article on race and the big four lifts is apt here:

    https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2017/12/23/race-and-strength-on-the-big-four-lifts/

    What is "power"? What is "strength"?
    , @europeasant
    That's why they have three lifts. Deadlift, Benchpress and squat. Who totals the greatest amount is the winner. They used to have the two hand curl until it became too hard to judge and was dis-continued.

    Same in the Olympic lifts. Two hand snatch and two hand Clean and Jerk and total wins it. Back in the early 70's they discontinued the two hand press because it became too difficult too judge.
  13. @Colin Wright
    Tangentially related: I used to have a moving business. Another mover once commented that he'd tried using weight lifters as mover's helpers; they were a disappointment.

    Speaking for myself, I can recall a few episodes demanding sheer, raw power; for example, there's the tale of the spinnet piano and the spiral staircase.

    However, and in general, care, stamina, and thinking through just how we were going to move the monster du jour were far more important than muscle mass.

    Oh, really?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Movie director Alexander Payne says that people always tell him Los Angeles has no history, but when he's driving around Los Angeles, he always sees historic sites, like: Hey look, there's that staircase that Laurel & Hardy had to carry the piano up!

    How's the Stan & Ollie movie with Steve Coogan and John C. Reilly?

    , @South Texas Guy
    I saw a doc on old Hollywood a few years back, and that staircase was still there. Though if I remember correctly, the empty plot on the right now has a house (duplex?) on it.
    , @Mr. Hack
    A great memory for me. I remember watching this film on TV with my father as a kid. Obviously, we were in the mood for some laughs, but it ended up being one of those times when I nearly peed my pants! Now, when I watch it, I might smile, but that's about it. It was a special childhood moment...
  14. No, bro, deadlifting makes you totally swole. Massive compound lifts boost testerone levels and shred fat. That’s what Olympic lifters all say and they’re tested for Steroids. Tested!

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    Deadlifts aren't an olympic lift.
    , @stillCARealist
    One of the top deadlifters in my gym is a tall, fat chick. The best guys can beat her, but only the best, and not by much.

    Lifting weights will make you swole, for sure, but don't count on getting shredded without serious nutritional determination. AKA, starvation.
  15. @Hail
    Very nicely done, if an in-joke which those not following the Taleb-vs.-LotsofPeople affair will not get. Which makes me feel not guilty about OT'ing:

    Swindle
     
    I present 2019's first media swindle:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dv8eDDZWkAEBVPg.jpg



    To add to list of the words that need retirement: "Maverick."

    Don’t you leave me, Maverick!

  16. @Hail
    Very nicely done, if an in-joke which those not following the Taleb-vs.-LotsofPeople affair will not get. Which makes me feel not guilty about OT'ing:

    Swindle
     
    I present 2019's first media swindle:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dv8eDDZWkAEBVPg.jpg



    To add to list of the words that need retirement: "Maverick."

    the only good maverick is an agm-65

  17. @Dave Pinsen
    It's not: men who can deadlift a lot can generally lift all sorts of heavy things. They're called strongmen, and you can find videos of them lifting stuff like logs or atlas stones on YouTube.

    It's actually a pretty good analogy. Deadlifting strength will correlate highly with being a good strongman, like high IQ will correlate highly with being good at g-loaded jobs, but the correlation won't be perfect in either case. There are some skills particular to strongman competitions that you won't develop just from deadlifting or doing other barbell exercises: for example, with atlas stones, you need to lift with a rounded back, which isn't what you're supposed to do when you deadlift. Nevertheless, strength, like IQ, is broadly applicable.

    Where the analogy breaks down is that you can improve your strength a lot more than you can improve your IQ.

    Where the analogy breaks down is that you can improve your strength a lot more than you can improve your IQ.

    I am not so sure. A smart man can become a doctor or an engineer for example. But usually not both in a lifetime. A strong man might choose to become a football player or MMA athlete, but usually not both.

    In sports and professions you are relying on a lot of training, resting on the shoulders of giants to excel. If you had to try to figure it all out on your own it would be near impossible. Smart people without specific training will just say IANAL or IANAD or IANAE because it is accepted that you can’t just substitute a high IQ for professionally recognized ability.

    The blank slate is wrong however. You need to be naturally strong to succeed at strength sports and you need to be naturally smart to succeed at high IQ professions.

    • Replies: @Logan
    The general consensus is that there is essentially nothing an adult can do to raise his IQ.

    Whereas almost anyone can increase their strength to at least some extent.
    , @Dave Pinsen
    Becoming a doctor or an engineer doesn’t raise your IQ, AFAIK. Lifting correctly makes you stronger.
    , @racerealist88
    "The blank slate is wrong however"

    Name and quote "blank slaters" "blank slating".
  18. For the cost of a single B2 bomber, we could ensure universal early childhood access to high-quality deadlifting facilities for our most vulnerable populations.

    • Replies: @PatrickH
    We could even call the program Dead Start.
  19. @Tyrion 2
    No, bro, deadlifting makes you totally swole. Massive compound lifts boost testerone levels and shred fat. That's what Olympic lifters all say and they're tested for Steroids. Tested!

    Deadlifts aren’t an olympic lift.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    My post was satire. I know all about weights. Indeed, I can deadlift anything above 50kgs, as once the 20s are on the edge of the barbell, the barbell already sits at waist height. Boom.
  20. @Hail
    Very nicely done, if an in-joke which those not following the Taleb-vs.-LotsofPeople affair will not get. Which makes me feel not guilty about OT'ing:

    Swindle
     
    I present 2019's first media swindle:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dv8eDDZWkAEBVPg.jpg



    To add to list of the words that need retirement: "Maverick."

    Never heard of Ben Sasse before, nor seen him, nor do I know anything about him.

    But based on that picture alone, I got fifty bucks that says he’s gay. Any takers?

    • Replies: @roo_ster
    Sasse has had rumors that he was shorteyed swirl about enough to sink his ambituons to run for the gop potus nom for 2016.
    , @Cloud of Probable Matricide
    Sasse’s not gay, though he was a gay enabler for Denny Hastert.
    , @Art Deco
    He's been married for 20-odd years and has 3 children.
    , @fish

    But based on that picture alone, I got fifty bucks that says he’s gay. Any takers?
     
    Takers?!

    Please! Confine yourself to the correct terminology ……"Pitchers" and "Catchers"!
    , @academic gossip

    based on that picture alone, I got fifty bucks that says he’s gay. Any takers?
     
    Gaydar from physiognomy is one of those situations where Twersky-Kahnemann style sanctimony is correct. Almost everyone would improve their accuracy by guessing not-gay every time.

    Reluctance to infer homosexuality without strong evidence is a social norm that has been lost and if statistical arguments can help restore it simply as a matter of Math And Logic, so much the better.

    , @Loretta
    Because he is "sassy?"
    , @Hail
    Anon[312],

    judge not on a single MSNBC-picked maverick-pic.

    Here is our man in his perhaps more natural setting:

    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/02/5d/59/025d59d379254122fc13aafaabf6c5c8.jpg

    http://images.gawker.com/ob7jpuxscu019p83yrwl/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636.png
  21. That’s a load of crap. Deadlifting is just one event that deadlifters participate in among different strength competitions, and they have to train most parts of the body to be good. They’d easily do all those everyday chores that the writer considers a challenge, perhaps with some minimal additional training. But they’re professional athletes that devote hours each day for training, have to follow proper nutrition and rest to succeed. The comparison to acquiring skills for everyday work is ridiculous – misplaced envy where there’s no rational reason to be envious.

    • Replies: @Bill
    Do you watch a lot of Mystery Science Theater 3000?
    , @silviosilver

    But they’re professional athletes that devote hours each day for training
     
    Yeah dude, powerlifters train for "hours each day." Lol.
  22. @Hail
    Very nicely done, if an in-joke which those not following the Taleb-vs.-LotsofPeople affair will not get. Which makes me feel not guilty about OT'ing:

    Swindle
     
    I present 2019's first media swindle:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dv8eDDZWkAEBVPg.jpg



    To add to list of the words that need retirement: "Maverick."

    Flake and Sasse look like they were grown in the same vat.

    • LOL: slumber_j
    • Replies: @Chase
    Physiognomy is real.
  23. @Dave Pinsen
    It's not: men who can deadlift a lot can generally lift all sorts of heavy things. They're called strongmen, and you can find videos of them lifting stuff like logs or atlas stones on YouTube.

    It's actually a pretty good analogy. Deadlifting strength will correlate highly with being a good strongman, like high IQ will correlate highly with being good at g-loaded jobs, but the correlation won't be perfect in either case. There are some skills particular to strongman competitions that you won't develop just from deadlifting or doing other barbell exercises: for example, with atlas stones, you need to lift with a rounded back, which isn't what you're supposed to do when you deadlift. Nevertheless, strength, like IQ, is broadly applicable.

    Where the analogy breaks down is that you can improve your strength a lot more than you can improve your IQ.

    Dave, what do you think of Starting Strength’s emphasis on the squat over the deadlift? Did you shift your focus from squat to deadlift over time?

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    I spend about equal time on all four of the main barbell exercises, liftung 2x per week when I’m on track. They program more squats than deadlifts during their novice progression because it gets too taxing to do heavy deadlifts 3x per week.
    , @roo_ster
    Not dave but in the same neighborhood, lifting wise, after seeing his deadlift video.

    Imo, squat and dead are complementary lifts. Do both. I was a squat guy at first but found that doing deads let me squat without a belt or knee wraps and eliminated all lower back twjnge or iffyness. Otoh, deep heavy squats are great for increasing flexibility and range of motion. Also, complementary lifting stances and variants help. I mostly do wide stance sumo deads and then squats that maximize range of motion, which given my structure means slightly wider than shoulder width for squat.

    I have been at this pretty heavy for 30 plus years to include baseball, football, several martial arts, and infantry. Nowadays i have to warm up a lot and approach heavy iron with much conservatism. For instance, i will not dead a weight i have not already recently bar shrugged. I want to see how my body reacts to a partial dead (shrug lift off) and high shrug reps with heavy weight. If something feels iffy, i back off. And i wont squat a weight i have not successfully dead lifted without incident. Thus my heavy dead and squat lifts are pretty close.

    Tl;dr
    Do both if you can as they are complementary.
    , @racerealist88
    Squatting at around 85% of 1RM increases bone density and testosterone production. I like Ripp's program for beginners, but, of course, as one progresses, priorities change.
  24. Any single test of strength is “artificial” and limited. As tests of whole-body strength go, the deadlift is almost certainly the best. It is simple (i.e. not nearly as technical as a clean or still less a snatch) and it is comprehensive, involving the greater amount of the body’s musculature, especially the legs, lower and upper back, and grip.

    For all around tests of strength, power, and athleticism, yes, “strongman” contests are better than powerlifting competitions. Strongman competitions anticipate and answer most of the commenter’s objections.

  25. Translation: Steve can only deadlift 100 pounds, therefor it must be pseudoscience. 🙂

  26. @Dave Pinsen
    It's not: men who can deadlift a lot can generally lift all sorts of heavy things. They're called strongmen, and you can find videos of them lifting stuff like logs or atlas stones on YouTube.

    It's actually a pretty good analogy. Deadlifting strength will correlate highly with being a good strongman, like high IQ will correlate highly with being good at g-loaded jobs, but the correlation won't be perfect in either case. There are some skills particular to strongman competitions that you won't develop just from deadlifting or doing other barbell exercises: for example, with atlas stones, you need to lift with a rounded back, which isn't what you're supposed to do when you deadlift. Nevertheless, strength, like IQ, is broadly applicable.

    Where the analogy breaks down is that you can improve your strength a lot more than you can improve your IQ.

    And just like in IQ tests, men of Northern/Central European heritage tend to dominate in strength competitions that include deadlifting and strongman events such as log lifts and Atlas stones.

  27. @anon
    Never heard of Ben Sasse before, nor seen him, nor do I know anything about him.

    But based on that picture alone, I got fifty bucks that says he's gay. Any takers?

    Sasse has had rumors that he was shorteyed swirl about enough to sink his ambituons to run for the gop potus nom for 2016.

  28. @Chrisnonymous
    Oh, really?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEYl9EbvdN8

    Movie director Alexander Payne says that people always tell him Los Angeles has no history, but when he’s driving around Los Angeles, he always sees historic sites, like: Hey look, there’s that staircase that Laurel & Hardy had to carry the piano up!

    How’s the Stan & Ollie movie with Steve Coogan and John C. Reilly?

    • Replies: @Jack D
    Here they are:

    https://www.google.com/maps/@34.083038,-118.2751304,3a,75y,289.01h,84.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFImlEPjpZugb1UawJbZ2fQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
    , @syonredux
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ifii8LvR-ss
    , @syonredux
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojm74VGsZBU
  29. @anon
    Never heard of Ben Sasse before, nor seen him, nor do I know anything about him.

    But based on that picture alone, I got fifty bucks that says he's gay. Any takers?

    Sasse’s not gay, though he was a gay enabler for Denny Hastert.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    Sasse wasn't elected to Congress until 8 years after Hastert retired, was never a congressional aide, and never had anything to do with law enforcement in any venue. All the complaints against him concern the period prior to 1982, when Sasse was a kid living in Nebraska.
  30. @Anonym
    Where the analogy breaks down is that you can improve your strength a lot more than you can improve your IQ.

    I am not so sure. A smart man can become a doctor or an engineer for example. But usually not both in a lifetime. A strong man might choose to become a football player or MMA athlete, but usually not both.

    In sports and professions you are relying on a lot of training, resting on the shoulders of giants to excel. If you had to try to figure it all out on your own it would be near impossible. Smart people without specific training will just say IANAL or IANAD or IANAE because it is accepted that you can't just substitute a high IQ for professionally recognized ability.

    The blank slate is wrong however. You need to be naturally strong to succeed at strength sports and you need to be naturally smart to succeed at high IQ professions.

    The general consensus is that there is essentially nothing an adult can do to raise his IQ.

    Whereas almost anyone can increase their strength to at least some extent.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    A difference indeed rests in when you can make improvement. But I’d argue that with requirements for nearly free full day education, and opportunities to push yourself for more, as well as identifying nutrients necessary for a healthy body and brain, such as folic acid, and pushing for pregnant women and kids to get them, western societies already strives quite heavily for everyone’s IQ to develop about as much as they reasonably can, alot more than society expends for you to develop your physical strength. That’s because intelligence is far more useful in modern society for most jobs and for an optimally functioning society. No, book learnin’ isn’t IQ, but a lack of mental stimulation as a kid stunts IQ. As does a lack of key micronutrients.
    , @adreadline
    To at least some extent, sure. Genes put a cap on that, too. If I treated you to my astounding physique, after rubbing your eyes and getting out of the dreamlike state such a sight would put you in, there's a small chance you'd question that, despite my sexy self, I could reach the same body type that a certain former California governor used to have. Even if I worked out really hard -- which of course I could do, it's not like I'm lazy or anything, and it's not like being lazy has anything to do with dem genetics, right? It was just that my parents didn't motivate me enough, or something...
  31. Is there a connection between this deadlifting post and noted deadlifted NNT?

    https://bloodyshovel.wordpress.com/author/spandrell9/

  32. @Hail
    Very nicely done, if an in-joke which those not following the Taleb-vs.-LotsofPeople affair will not get. Which makes me feel not guilty about OT'ing:

    Swindle
     
    I present 2019's first media swindle:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dv8eDDZWkAEBVPg.jpg



    To add to list of the words that need retirement: "Maverick."

    I was wondering what the hell this was satirizing. I don’t have time to figure out why it’s Taleb (someone of whom I’ve barely heard).

    Would you please briefly elaborate?

    • Replies: @Hail
    See comment-293 in another recent thread ("Silver vs. Taleb: Grudge Match") for a kind of summary.

    Here is my summary, though I can't claim to have followed it all:

    Author Nicholas Taleb slammed IQ testing and denounced it as "a pseudoscientific swindle." His reasoning is that IQ is not a perfect predictor of "real-world success."

    A lot of people criticized him on this, including Steve Sailer. Dr. James Thompson has published a critical reaction. The OP here is a satirical adaptation of Taleb's criticism of IQ testing.
  33. @Anonym
    Deadlifting seems to be the lone sop to people with long levers (arms at least) among the so-called power lifts. A reasonable part of success comes down to biomechanics after technique and strength in those lifts. The shorter the distance the limbs must move to complete the distance, and the larger the muscles to partake in the lift, the greater the total.

    E.g. in a bench press you want to have a deep chest and short arms, and make your technique emphasize this. It is more a test of force than power in the physics sense, though it is dynamic.

    A long limbed guy could do more physical work in the one lift, but this is not measured. Where is this output competitively measured?

    I believe you call them "sports".

    People with long arms usually have long legs too.

    • Replies: @midtown
    Yes, but generally he is correct that lever length is very important in the tail ends of the weightlifting bell curve. I believe a long torso and relatively short legs would be beneficial in squatting. And short arms will help in the bench. Overall, being short period is easier in weightlifting as the lever lengths are shorter.
    , @Ron Mexico
    But if you have long arms and short legs the deadlift coul be for you. Lamar Gant comes to mind. Met Juoko Ahola at a competition and watched him destroy the car deadlift. Beautiful form, technique. The shoulders always lock before the hips. Ahola was a genetic freak. I always appreciated that my hs powerlifting coach emphasized deadlift first before squat and bench in that order.
  34. @Anonym
    Where the analogy breaks down is that you can improve your strength a lot more than you can improve your IQ.

    I am not so sure. A smart man can become a doctor or an engineer for example. But usually not both in a lifetime. A strong man might choose to become a football player or MMA athlete, but usually not both.

    In sports and professions you are relying on a lot of training, resting on the shoulders of giants to excel. If you had to try to figure it all out on your own it would be near impossible. Smart people without specific training will just say IANAL or IANAD or IANAE because it is accepted that you can't just substitute a high IQ for professionally recognized ability.

    The blank slate is wrong however. You need to be naturally strong to succeed at strength sports and you need to be naturally smart to succeed at high IQ professions.

    Becoming a doctor or an engineer doesn’t raise your IQ, AFAIK. Lifting correctly makes you stronger.

    • Replies: @E e
    I think a better analogy would be, say, how far you can go with math and how much you can lift. Not everyone can do math to the point where they could be a famous physicist or whatever, but most people can learn enough to help with other jobs, with enough structure. Some people need less structure to pick up the math. Likewise, not everyone can be an Olympic weightlifter, but most people can get stronger so they're healthier and less injury prone, but a lot of people need some structure and training. Some people will naturally just get stronger with less obvious effort.
    , @Chrisnonymous
    It probably does raise your IQ, relatively speaking. Compare becoming a doctor with becoming a nurse: who are your peers? what problems are you solving? what do you discuss with people? what do you read to keep up to date? how do you spend your free time? etc. Takethe same person and test them after 10 years as an MD vs 10 years as an RN and they'll score higher after working as an MD.
    , @Lowe
    Lifting weights won't make the underlying dimensions of your body any bigger. You will remain the same height, and have limbs of the same length, and same shoulder breadth.

    You cannot work out or weight lift yourself into being a competitive athlete in a sport that many care about, like American football, basketball, or even sports like baseball or soccer. Those last two depend on things like eyesight, reaction time and coordination, which are also hard or impossible to improve with training.

    Of course, with weight training you can increase the size of your muscles, your strength and power, your endurance, and the aesthetic and sexual appeal of your body. But physical strength and prowess in general are easily analogous to IQ. You can lift as much as your want, but great athletes or strongmen are born, not made.
  35. @keuril
    Dave, what do you think of Starting Strength's emphasis on the squat over the deadlift? Did you shift your focus from squat to deadlift over time?

    I spend about equal time on all four of the main barbell exercises, liftung 2x per week when I’m on track. They program more squats than deadlifts during their novice progression because it gets too taxing to do heavy deadlifts 3x per week.

  36. @Dave Pinsen
    It's not: men who can deadlift a lot can generally lift all sorts of heavy things. They're called strongmen, and you can find videos of them lifting stuff like logs or atlas stones on YouTube.

    It's actually a pretty good analogy. Deadlifting strength will correlate highly with being a good strongman, like high IQ will correlate highly with being good at g-loaded jobs, but the correlation won't be perfect in either case. There are some skills particular to strongman competitions that you won't develop just from deadlifting or doing other barbell exercises: for example, with atlas stones, you need to lift with a rounded back, which isn't what you're supposed to do when you deadlift. Nevertheless, strength, like IQ, is broadly applicable.

    Where the analogy breaks down is that you can improve your strength a lot more than you can improve your IQ.

    Regarding improvement potential, I’d say that strength showing more capacity for improvement might be the result of universal elementary education, however imperfect. Physical education in the majority of schools is a joke, teaching math and reading is mostly just mediocre.

  37. The first assertion is false.

    Deadlifting is a pseudoscientific measure of strength.

    The fact that deadlifts require strength and are quantifiable measures ensures that they are susceptible to scientific study. That is without considering the health benefits associated with deads. If you have lower-back problems like a ruptured disc, deads (with proper form and appropriate weight) are a great way to compensate. Add in the other major barbell exercises and you have a program that can cure the disease. IIRC 25-40% of participants in a scientific study of those with disc problems reported no pain after the training period, much better than any drug. Plus you can avoid surgery.

    It is the criticism of deadlifting offered above that is pseudoscientific, not the exercise.

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
    The author was satirizing NNT's response to our beloved host.
  38. @Dave Pinsen
    Becoming a doctor or an engineer doesn’t raise your IQ, AFAIK. Lifting correctly makes you stronger.

    I think a better analogy would be, say, how far you can go with math and how much you can lift. Not everyone can do math to the point where they could be a famous physicist or whatever, but most people can learn enough to help with other jobs, with enough structure. Some people need less structure to pick up the math. Likewise, not everyone can be an Olympic weightlifter, but most people can get stronger so they’re healthier and less injury prone, but a lot of people need some structure and training. Some people will naturally just get stronger with less obvious effort.

  39. @Hail
    Very nicely done, if an in-joke which those not following the Taleb-vs.-LotsofPeople affair will not get. Which makes me feel not guilty about OT'ing:

    Swindle
     
    I present 2019's first media swindle:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dv8eDDZWkAEBVPg.jpg



    To add to list of the words that need retirement: "Maverick."

    To add to list of the words that need retirement: “Maverick.”

    Lol! Yeah, Sasse and Romney — “mavericks.” Well, I guess it’s true if it you mean it like THIS Maverick — a mute, blinded flunky for the 1%.

  40. @Zogby
    That's a load of crap. Deadlifting is just one event that deadlifters participate in among different strength competitions, and they have to train most parts of the body to be good. They'd easily do all those everyday chores that the writer considers a challenge, perhaps with some minimal additional training. But they're professional athletes that devote hours each day for training, have to follow proper nutrition and rest to succeed. The comparison to acquiring skills for everyday work is ridiculous - misplaced envy where there's no rational reason to be envious.

    Do you watch a lot of Mystery Science Theater 3000?

  41. @silviosilver
    Deadlifts aren't an olympic lift.

    My post was satire. I know all about weights. Indeed, I can deadlift anything above 50kgs, as once the 20s are on the edge of the barbell, the barbell already sits at waist height. Boom.

    • LOL: Janus
  42. @Dave Pinsen
    It's not: men who can deadlift a lot can generally lift all sorts of heavy things. They're called strongmen, and you can find videos of them lifting stuff like logs or atlas stones on YouTube.

    It's actually a pretty good analogy. Deadlifting strength will correlate highly with being a good strongman, like high IQ will correlate highly with being good at g-loaded jobs, but the correlation won't be perfect in either case. There are some skills particular to strongman competitions that you won't develop just from deadlifting or doing other barbell exercises: for example, with atlas stones, you need to lift with a rounded back, which isn't what you're supposed to do when you deadlift. Nevertheless, strength, like IQ, is broadly applicable.

    Where the analogy breaks down is that you can improve your strength a lot more than you can improve your IQ.

    Agreed.

  43. @Colin Wright
    Tangentially related: I used to have a moving business. Another mover once commented that he'd tried using weight lifters as mover's helpers; they were a disappointment.

    Speaking for myself, I can recall a few episodes demanding sheer, raw power; for example, there's the tale of the spinnet piano and the spiral staircase.

    However, and in general, care, stamina, and thinking through just how we were going to move the monster du jour were far more important than muscle mass.

    I have in the past been a big weightlifter, and I found that moving was the purest practical application.

  44. @Dave Pinsen
    People with long arms usually have long legs too.

    Yes, but generally he is correct that lever length is very important in the tail ends of the weightlifting bell curve. I believe a long torso and relatively short legs would be beneficial in squatting. And short arms will help in the bench. Overall, being short period is easier in weightlifting as the lever lengths are shorter.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    "being short period is easier in weightlifting as the lever lengths are shorter"

    The weightlifter Precious McKenzie (4'9") "has one of the longest-held world records in sports, (possibly the longest-held current record): 37 years. His 1,339 lb total in the 123 lb class, was achieved in 1979".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precious_McKenzie#Career
    , @Dave Pinsen
    Sure, the smaller the lever length, the easier it is to lift a weight, relatively speaking. But he specifically said longer arms would reduce the distance of the deadlift. The problem with that is that most people are fairly proportional, so a guy with long arms will also be tall and have long legs, increasing the distance of the lift.
  45. @Steve Sailer
    Movie director Alexander Payne says that people always tell him Los Angeles has no history, but when he's driving around Los Angeles, he always sees historic sites, like: Hey look, there's that staircase that Laurel & Hardy had to carry the piano up!

    How's the Stan & Ollie movie with Steve Coogan and John C. Reilly?

  46. @keuril
    Dave, what do you think of Starting Strength's emphasis on the squat over the deadlift? Did you shift your focus from squat to deadlift over time?

    Not dave but in the same neighborhood, lifting wise, after seeing his deadlift video.

    Imo, squat and dead are complementary lifts. Do both. I was a squat guy at first but found that doing deads let me squat without a belt or knee wraps and eliminated all lower back twjnge or iffyness. Otoh, deep heavy squats are great for increasing flexibility and range of motion. Also, complementary lifting stances and variants help. I mostly do wide stance sumo deads and then squats that maximize range of motion, which given my structure means slightly wider than shoulder width for squat.

    I have been at this pretty heavy for 30 plus years to include baseball, football, several martial arts, and infantry. Nowadays i have to warm up a lot and approach heavy iron with much conservatism. For instance, i will not dead a weight i have not already recently bar shrugged. I want to see how my body reacts to a partial dead (shrug lift off) and high shrug reps with heavy weight. If something feels iffy, i back off. And i wont squat a weight i have not successfully dead lifted without incident. Thus my heavy dead and squat lifts are pretty close.

    Tl;dr
    Do both if you can as they are complementary.

    • Replies: @keuril
    Thanks for the info. I am still a n00b with deadlift and squat barely stronger than my bench. What do you guys think about power cleans and (overhead) presses, which are also recommended in Starting Strength?
  47. @Chrisnonymous
    Oh, really?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEYl9EbvdN8

    I saw a doc on old Hollywood a few years back, and that staircase was still there. Though if I remember correctly, the empty plot on the right now has a house (duplex?) on it.

  48. @Dtbb
    An oft repeated phrase on construction sites: Don't work harder, work smarter.

    It’s not. Chubby middle aged men working in their garage use that phrase.

    • Replies: @Dtbb
    Oh really? Here's another: Why strain, use the crane.
  49. Even height, which was Taleb’s example of a legitimate measure, is subject to the same sorts of problems he raises against IQ.

    But strength is fully interchangeable with IQ in Taleb’s criticisms. Everything he says about IQ is true of strength. You could take the scores on the tasks in World’s Strongest Man contests (or Olympic Decathlons, medical checkup data, credit history, etc) run Principal Components Analysis on them and call the first component the Strength Quotient (resp. track-athleticism, healthiness, credit score) . Maybe report its value on a bell curved IQ scale with mean 100 to make Taleb extra happy.

    Taleb says, in two self-coined words (Ludic Fallacy), that sabermetrics only works in baseball. Actually, we live in Ludic Reality: all the world’s a game. IQ is just another sabermetric for the game of life.

    • Replies: @res
    What's ironic is that Taleb's writings on IQ are in the best tradition of the IYIs (Intellectual Yet Idiot) he goes on about.
  50. @TelfoedJohn
    Flake and Sasse look like they were grown in the same vat.

    Physiognomy is real.

  51. @Dave Pinsen
    Becoming a doctor or an engineer doesn’t raise your IQ, AFAIK. Lifting correctly makes you stronger.

    It probably does raise your IQ, relatively speaking. Compare becoming a doctor with becoming a nurse: who are your peers? what problems are you solving? what do you discuss with people? what do you read to keep up to date? how do you spend your free time? etc. Takethe same person and test them after 10 years as an MD vs 10 years as an RN and they’ll score higher after working as an MD.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    As far as I know, it’s really not possible to raise your IQ much, no matter what you do. If you get a medical degree, you will certainly know more, as you’re required to memorize a lot of things, but will your IQ be higher? Maybe James Thompson can weigh in.
    , @S. Anonyia
    Doubt it. The MD will have less free time and will be sleep deprived during their critical 20s and early 30s. The nurse can pursue intellectual pursuits in their free time, if they are so inclined.

    Does your average MD solve problems that are that complicated anyway? A lot of it is memorization and procedure. You’re giving them too much credit. Most MDs are not specialists or surgeons after all.
  52. Dear Los Angeles: The City in Diaries and Letters, 1542 to 2018 (Modern Library)

  53. @Cloud of Probable Matricide
    Sasse’s not gay, though he was a gay enabler for Denny Hastert.

    Sasse wasn’t elected to Congress until 8 years after Hastert retired, was never a congressional aide, and never had anything to do with law enforcement in any venue. All the complaints against him concern the period prior to 1982, when Sasse was a kid living in Nebraska.

    • Replies: @Cloud of Probable Matricide
    So all that stuff I read in the past about Sasse and Hastert was just BS?

    Thanks. No element of truth at all?
  54. Most weightlifters should avoid deadlifts until they are properly executing basic lifts. It takes quite a bit more focus and concentration to deadlift than arm curl.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    What do you think?

    https://twitter.com/Mangan150/status/1080570474222907393
    , @roo_ster
    Totally disagree. Deads are the first or second lift to teach. Start light, work form, figure out what particulst flavor works best for you as a noob.
  55. @anon
    Never heard of Ben Sasse before, nor seen him, nor do I know anything about him.

    But based on that picture alone, I got fifty bucks that says he's gay. Any takers?

    He’s been married for 20-odd years and has 3 children.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Sure, but it's not like closeted men with wives and children are unheard of. There were a lot fewer rumors if any about Hastert. FWIW, it's apparently an open secret among people in DC like the Log Cabin Republicans and other groups, and his nickname among Capitol Hill staffers and lobbyists is "Ben's Asse".
  56. @Tyrion 2
    No, bro, deadlifting makes you totally swole. Massive compound lifts boost testerone levels and shred fat. That's what Olympic lifters all say and they're tested for Steroids. Tested!

    One of the top deadlifters in my gym is a tall, fat chick. The best guys can beat her, but only the best, and not by much.

    Lifting weights will make you swole, for sure, but don’t count on getting shredded without serious nutritional determination. AKA, starvation.

    • Replies: @racerealist88
    "but don’t count on getting shredded without serious nutritional determination. AKA, starvation."

    What's your justification for this claim? Have you ever dieted down yourself - or even worked with people who are losing weight on a strength program?
  57. This is hilarious.

    Also, I think it’s time to roll out the “Taleb is Bipolar” hypothesis. Based on my experience with bipolars, wife among others, it explains the bizarre leap into an area he’s not an expert on, but which he now feels perfectly comfortable making ex cathedra statements about, denigrating other experts, Charles Murray as a mountebank?, and the excited passion of all his insights which will solve all the thorny issues of a difficult field.

    Bipolars love to QED stuff, Quod erat demonstrandum. My wife says that she and the other little girls would tell each other in geometry class that it actually stood for “Quite Easily Done,” and that is a perfect summation of a bipolar mind entering a new field and figuring it all out in a flash where all the experts have struggled.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    >Murray a mountebank
    Murray's industry, accomplishments, intelligence, and writing are unimpeachable. His solutions are dreamy, probably as an inevitable consequence of his establishmentarianism. The Madison Fund will never be allowed to exist.
    , @silviosilver

    My wife says that she and the other little girls would tell each other in geometry class that it actually stood for “Quite Easily Done,”
     
    Hey, don't laugh. My gym teacher used to say that, and I took him at face value. I didn't learn otherwise until well into college.
  58. @Hail
    Very nicely done, if an in-joke which those not following the Taleb-vs.-LotsofPeople affair will not get. Which makes me feel not guilty about OT'ing:

    Swindle
     
    I present 2019's first media swindle:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dv8eDDZWkAEBVPg.jpg



    To add to list of the words that need retirement: "Maverick."

    “You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”

    They seem to mean “cuck.”

  59. @eah
    So what is deadlifting while believing in the genetic basis of average group IQ differences? -- a dupopseudoscientific swindle?

    So what is deadlifting while believing in the genetic basis of average group IQ differences?

    The ultimate isolation exercise.

    Robert Plomin says that according to the majority view of intelligence researchers, the core of intelligence is ‘the ability to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend complex ideas, learn quickly, and learn from experience’.

    IQ tests are a good test of intelligence, But they won’t make you more intelligent. A max deadlift would be good test of strength, but really quite likely to hurt your back, and not just if you use that round back competitive style.

    https://tim.blog/2018/06/01/the-tim-ferriss-show-transcripts-art-de-vany/

    Tim Ferriss: Are you responsible for getting Nassim Taleb deadlifting?

    Art De Vany: My fault. Well, you remember the story about Nassim. If you read the back section of that little section you wrote for my book, because here he was, a kurtosis trader. That is, he used distributions with wild characteristics. He was buying out of the money calls and puts and living on the variance. […]

    Art De Vany: Well, I told Nassim to start doing negative deadlifts if he wants to improve his deadlifts. Have somebody help you put the bar up, lower it. Pick a height, put it up again and lower it again.

    And put it up again and lower it again. I do almost all negatives now.

    Tim Ferriss: Why is that? Why are eccentrics so important?

    Art De Vany: I’m doing eccentrics for really three reasons, the main one being that they double your stem cell counts and the satellite cells in the muscle. They double them but they don’t exhaust them. A lot of people, if you double the stem cells that flood out, you may exhaust them because you may simply exhaust the ones in the niche.

    Doing negative deadlifts while scoffing at group differences and IQ will make you more successful and give you greater power to say a little more of what you actually think.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    The importance of negatives was first identified by Arthur Jones, inventor of Nautilus machines, 50 odd years ago. Jones also emphasized the intensity, briefness, and infrequency of training, which are principles that De Vany and Taleb espouse now.

    It's difficult to properly and effectively do negative focused training with barbells and other free weights. Because you can lower much more weight than you can lift, negative training involves using much heavier weight than normal. Doing negative only deadlifts for example would require at least two strong assistants, and it would be difficult to do effectively and safely as the weight is transferred to the trainee at the top of the lift position and you are suddenly loading the body and back with force.

    Jones tried to develop negative training specific machines but never quite succeeded. There are machines though that help with negative training, for example upper body presses with foot pedals that allow one to use their legs to raise the weight. And regular machines are generally the best way to do negative training. De Vany does negatives with machines, for example pushing on the leg press with both legs and lowering with one leg. There are new machines now that do negative training, though they're expensive and not very common.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=he-9UkQDcNA

  60. Meh. Taleb would tell you deadlifting is competition under controlled conditions.

  61. @anon
    Never heard of Ben Sasse before, nor seen him, nor do I know anything about him.

    But based on that picture alone, I got fifty bucks that says he's gay. Any takers?

    But based on that picture alone, I got fifty bucks that says he’s gay. Any takers?

    Takers?!

    Please! Confine yourself to the correct terminology ……”Pitchers” and “Catchers”!

  62. Tiny Duck: Take a lesson. The above is what trolling should be. Not the waste matter that you extrude on these pages.

  63. @Dave Pinsen
    It's not: men who can deadlift a lot can generally lift all sorts of heavy things. They're called strongmen, and you can find videos of them lifting stuff like logs or atlas stones on YouTube.

    It's actually a pretty good analogy. Deadlifting strength will correlate highly with being a good strongman, like high IQ will correlate highly with being good at g-loaded jobs, but the correlation won't be perfect in either case. There are some skills particular to strongman competitions that you won't develop just from deadlifting or doing other barbell exercises: for example, with atlas stones, you need to lift with a rounded back, which isn't what you're supposed to do when you deadlift. Nevertheless, strength, like IQ, is broadly applicable.

    Where the analogy breaks down is that you can improve your strength a lot more than you can improve your IQ.

    Why the alternating grip in deadlifting? Do you switch hands while training?

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    I do warmups double overhand up to 335lbs and then mixed/alternate from there, because it gets too heavy for overhand and hook grip is unpleasant. Yes, I switch which hand is pronated on the work sets.
    , @racerealist88
    You can move more weight with a mixed grip - but if your supine hand is not fully extended, then a bicep tear is possible.
    , @ben tillman
    Yes.
  64. Yes very good. This commenter thinks that body-building is exactly equivalent to intelligence.

    Obviously a very intelligent commenter.

    Reminds me of the Rocket Scientists who think that gene-splicing is exactly equivalent to selective breeding.

    Pure genius!

    If you’re an idiot.

  65. @Dave Pinsen
    Becoming a doctor or an engineer doesn’t raise your IQ, AFAIK. Lifting correctly makes you stronger.

    Lifting weights won’t make the underlying dimensions of your body any bigger. You will remain the same height, and have limbs of the same length, and same shoulder breadth.

    You cannot work out or weight lift yourself into being a competitive athlete in a sport that many care about, like American football, basketball, or even sports like baseball or soccer. Those last two depend on things like eyesight, reaction time and coordination, which are also hard or impossible to improve with training.

    Of course, with weight training you can increase the size of your muscles, your strength and power, your endurance, and the aesthetic and sexual appeal of your body. But physical strength and prowess in general are easily analogous to IQ. You can lift as much as your want, but great athletes or strongmen are born, not made.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    https://twitter.com/dpinsen/status/1076433291052490752
    , @Buzz Mohawk

    You can lift as much as your want, but great athletes or strongmen are born, not made.
     
    Yes, as with anything, there has to be that inherited potential, but read my comment above about an old friend.

    He started out as a small guy that I pushed against a wall. You never would have guessed that someday he would set powerlifting world records, but he did. He did it through hard work, on the advice of a doctor, to improve his tennis game. He discovered his potential.

    You can't change your skeletal frame or your physical brain, but you can exercise physically and mentally, and learn techniques. One job of adults is to make children exercise, physically and mentally so that they will discover and cultivate their abilities in both categories.
    , @racerealist88
    "But physical strength and prowess in general are easily analogous to IQ. You can lift as much as your want, but great athletes or strongmen are born, not made."

    Nonsense. IQ is not a 'real' thing in the brain - the mental is irreducible to the physical.
  66. @Dtbb
    Why the alternating grip in deadlifting? Do you switch hands while training?

    I do warmups double overhand up to 335lbs and then mixed/alternate from there, because it gets too heavy for overhand and hook grip is unpleasant. Yes, I switch which hand is pronated on the work sets.

    • Replies: @Eric Novak
    The Versa Grips will radically improve every pulling exercise. You won't believe the increase in weight. Run, don't walk, to the review section at Amazon.
  67. IQ and powerlifting are not mutually exclusive, BTW.

    An old friend from my hometown became a powerlifter and an electrical engineer. He made his career with an aerospace company, and he has his name on a couple of patents. He has also had his name on a couple of weightlifting world records.

    In high school he was a small guy who wore disco shirts and those silly high-heeled shoes of the era. He arrived in our mountain town from out of state, and he dressed like John Travolta in Saturday Night Fever. The rest of us wore hiking boots and down jackets. We snickered behind his back.

    In physics class, he was very smart and quick to grasp all the math. He naturally fell into our group of friends. One time, in a stupid fit of anger, I pushed him against a wall in front of our friends. A very decent guy, he correctly responded with incredulity, not violence.

    He was a varsity tennis player, small and wiry. His doctor told him that lifting weights would improve his game. I think that changed his life. He followed his doctor’s advice. In college I noticed him getting bigger, but he didn’t tell me about his lifting.

    Years later he started showing up in sports reports on weightlifting competitions. Then, a couple of decades ago, he started setting world records for his age category. He is a tough, smart man, with accomplishments both intellectual and physical. I would never dare now to push him against a wall.

  68. @Chrisnonymous
    It probably does raise your IQ, relatively speaking. Compare becoming a doctor with becoming a nurse: who are your peers? what problems are you solving? what do you discuss with people? what do you read to keep up to date? how do you spend your free time? etc. Takethe same person and test them after 10 years as an MD vs 10 years as an RN and they'll score higher after working as an MD.

    As far as I know, it’s really not possible to raise your IQ much, no matter what you do. If you get a medical degree, you will certainly know more, as you’re required to memorize a lot of things, but will your IQ be higher? Maybe James Thompson can weigh in.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Doctors are the go-to smart idiots, but lawyers have an unfair advantage (they literally trade in justification), and both are probably balanced by holders of empty master's degrees.
    , @Chrisnonymous
    My understanding is that education can temporarily raise IQ a little, but I am very open to correction. My guess is that being immersed in a milieu where one is required to think about harder problems is going maintain that "temporary" boost.
  69. The mathematician who found a flaw in a massive meteorlogical calculation done by THE GREAT SIMON LAPLACE(Probably as great as Ol’ Issac Newton)….A Working Class Native Born White American….Working Class Native Born White American Family…..maybe a High School Grad..self-taught mathematician from whatever math books he could scrounge around in local libraries….The father of American Meteorology….

    Given the enormous scientific depth of the IQ Test Score Psychometrics…we can retroactively predict this member of the White Working Class had an IQ way lower than Mittens Rommney…George H Bush….Samantha Powers……

    There is a discussion of this guy and several other average-below average IQ Test score Working Class Scientist-Mathematicians….over at Quora…..

    And I didn’t even mention the GREAT Joseph Fraunhoffer….he was nearly burnt to death in his Family’s Working Class Slum Home….But we can predict with 100 percent confidence retroactively that Joseph Fraunhoffer had a an IQ lower than Mitt Rommney and George H Bush…

    I didn’t even mention Working Class Retard Benjamin Finkel(Founded the American Mathematical Monthly)…or the Working Class Retard Robert Wallace(Wallace’s Formula)

    • Replies: @Autochthon
    As accomplished (okay, "great," – if you mean something different by that) as Isaac Newton?

    Really? Really? You lose credibility writing such things.
  70. Anon[431] • Disclaimer says:

    Arm and leg length are correlated but not precisely, just like IQ and types of strength. I am a good example. I’m 6’1” tall but have the arms/torso more typical of someone 6’4” and the legs more typical of someone 5’10”. This makes the bench my relatively weak lift and the deadlift my relatively strong lift. Both were well above average in my prime and would have indicated that I had a high level of general strength, though neither would be a perfect measure of whatever the strength equivalent to g in IQ is.

  71. @MarcB.
    Most weightlifters should avoid deadlifts until they are properly executing basic lifts. It takes quite a bit more focus and concentration to deadlift than arm curl.

    What do you think?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    His legs are quite skinny relative to his upper body, especially his traps. Deadlifts tend to overdevelop the traps.
    , @RaceRealist88
    Rounded back. Bad lift.
  72. @Lowe
    Lifting weights won't make the underlying dimensions of your body any bigger. You will remain the same height, and have limbs of the same length, and same shoulder breadth.

    You cannot work out or weight lift yourself into being a competitive athlete in a sport that many care about, like American football, basketball, or even sports like baseball or soccer. Those last two depend on things like eyesight, reaction time and coordination, which are also hard or impossible to improve with training.

    Of course, with weight training you can increase the size of your muscles, your strength and power, your endurance, and the aesthetic and sexual appeal of your body. But physical strength and prowess in general are easily analogous to IQ. You can lift as much as your want, but great athletes or strongmen are born, not made.

  73. @Lowe
    Lifting weights won't make the underlying dimensions of your body any bigger. You will remain the same height, and have limbs of the same length, and same shoulder breadth.

    You cannot work out or weight lift yourself into being a competitive athlete in a sport that many care about, like American football, basketball, or even sports like baseball or soccer. Those last two depend on things like eyesight, reaction time and coordination, which are also hard or impossible to improve with training.

    Of course, with weight training you can increase the size of your muscles, your strength and power, your endurance, and the aesthetic and sexual appeal of your body. But physical strength and prowess in general are easily analogous to IQ. You can lift as much as your want, but great athletes or strongmen are born, not made.

    You can lift as much as your want, but great athletes or strongmen are born, not made.

    Yes, as with anything, there has to be that inherited potential, but read my comment above about an old friend.

    He started out as a small guy that I pushed against a wall. You never would have guessed that someday he would set powerlifting world records, but he did. He did it through hard work, on the advice of a doctor, to improve his tennis game. He discovered his potential.

    You can’t change your skeletal frame or your physical brain, but you can exercise physically and mentally, and learn techniques. One job of adults is to make children exercise, physically and mentally so that they will discover and cultivate their abilities in both categories.

  74. I don’t really know what pseudoscientific means in this context. People going to the gym aren’t generally doing so to be better construction workers. Many long-time lifters are aware of the concept of “gym strength.” They understand that gym weights are designed to be lifted repeatedly in a variety of exercises. They also understand that being able to lift a 300 lb. barbell isn’t the same as being able to lift 300 pounds of cord wood. This doesn’t mean, however, that weight training can’t increase your strength.

    Similarly, good and humble martial artists know that a street fight isn’t the same thing as sparring in a temperature controlled environment with flat and smooth surfaces and certain rules in place. This does not mean that martial arts training and practice are irrelevant to real fighting. It just means that you have to understand the limitations and adapt accordingly.

    Deadlifting isn’t the be-all and end-all of strength measures, but it’s also not a pointless measure of strength. Its usefulness as a measure is instead dependent upon the functional area for which strength is needed.

  75. @Steve Sailer
    Movie director Alexander Payne says that people always tell him Los Angeles has no history, but when he's driving around Los Angeles, he always sees historic sites, like: Hey look, there's that staircase that Laurel & Hardy had to carry the piano up!

    How's the Stan & Ollie movie with Steve Coogan and John C. Reilly?

  76. @Steve Sailer
    Movie director Alexander Payne says that people always tell him Los Angeles has no history, but when he's driving around Los Angeles, he always sees historic sites, like: Hey look, there's that staircase that Laurel & Hardy had to carry the piano up!

    How's the Stan & Ollie movie with Steve Coogan and John C. Reilly?

  77. @roo_ster
    Not dave but in the same neighborhood, lifting wise, after seeing his deadlift video.

    Imo, squat and dead are complementary lifts. Do both. I was a squat guy at first but found that doing deads let me squat without a belt or knee wraps and eliminated all lower back twjnge or iffyness. Otoh, deep heavy squats are great for increasing flexibility and range of motion. Also, complementary lifting stances and variants help. I mostly do wide stance sumo deads and then squats that maximize range of motion, which given my structure means slightly wider than shoulder width for squat.

    I have been at this pretty heavy for 30 plus years to include baseball, football, several martial arts, and infantry. Nowadays i have to warm up a lot and approach heavy iron with much conservatism. For instance, i will not dead a weight i have not already recently bar shrugged. I want to see how my body reacts to a partial dead (shrug lift off) and high shrug reps with heavy weight. If something feels iffy, i back off. And i wont squat a weight i have not successfully dead lifted without incident. Thus my heavy dead and squat lifts are pretty close.

    Tl;dr
    Do both if you can as they are complementary.

    Thanks for the info. I am still a n00b with deadlift and squat barely stronger than my bench. What do you guys think about power cleans and (overhead) presses, which are also recommended in Starting Strength?

    • Replies: @roo_ster
    Deads, squats, military/overhead presses, power cleans, bench, bent over rows are all basic lifts that build power, strength, and size. The meat and potatoes of weight trainjng. No matter the current guru or trend.

    Everything else is gravy. Oh other lifts have their places, like c&j or snatch, but often times become time sinks or diversions. Body builders will have other uses for more esoteric lifts.

    I have not had time for anything othet tgan the basics for many years. Family, career, etc. If i can hammer it hard 3x week i am doing great anf can make gains. Heck 2x now that i am older and need more than 7 days to recover from a heavy leg day.

    Good luck. Weight trainkng can be done into old age. It fills me with satisfaction, boh the lifting and the tracking. And despite causing minor injury on occasion, has protected me from serious and catastrophic injury several time in my life.
    , @midtown
    I don't think cleans are necessary for non-athletes, but presses fill a role. You should consider Bulgarian split squats (one foot back on a bench). They reduce the pressure on the back because of less weight and help to smooth out any side-to-side strength asymmetries.
  78. Just a bit of random advice. Besides making sure your form is good so as to protect your back, it’s also important to breathe correctly during high-rep sets of deadlifts. I once almost gave myself an aneurysm after about 17 reps with too much breath-holding at what was for me a fairly heavy weight. I’m still a bit concerned that I did some permanent damage. Many people instinctively feel that holding their breath increases their power, but it’s not really true and tends to be counter-productive, even if it doesn’t end in a stroke. That said, I think it’s just about time to head to the garage for a few sets. If I were limited to only being able to do one lift, deadlift would be it. Squats are possibly even better, but I personally like doing them much less.

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
    Learn to how to do the Valsalva maneuver correctly. (Don't do it if you have high BP or heart problems.)
  79. @academic gossip
    Even height, which was Taleb's example of a legitimate measure, is subject to the same sorts of problems he raises against IQ.

    But strength is fully interchangeable with IQ in Taleb's criticisms. Everything he says about IQ is true of strength. You could take the scores on the tasks in World's Strongest Man contests (or Olympic Decathlons, medical checkup data, credit history, etc) run Principal Components Analysis on them and call the first component the Strength Quotient (resp. track-athleticism, healthiness, credit score) . Maybe report its value on a bell curved IQ scale with mean 100 to make Taleb extra happy.

    Taleb says, in two self-coined words (Ludic Fallacy), that sabermetrics only works in baseball. Actually, we live in Ludic Reality: all the world's a game. IQ is just another sabermetric for the game of life.

    What’s ironic is that Taleb’s writings on IQ are in the best tradition of the IYIs (Intellectual Yet Idiot) he goes on about.

  80. @Dave Pinsen
    What do you think?

    https://twitter.com/Mangan150/status/1080570474222907393

    His legs are quite skinny relative to his upper body, especially his traps. Deadlifts tend to overdevelop the traps.

  81. @anon
    Never heard of Ben Sasse before, nor seen him, nor do I know anything about him.

    But based on that picture alone, I got fifty bucks that says he's gay. Any takers?

    based on that picture alone, I got fifty bucks that says he’s gay. Any takers?

    Gaydar from physiognomy is one of those situations where Twersky-Kahnemann style sanctimony is correct. Almost everyone would improve their accuracy by guessing not-gay every time.

    Reluctance to infer homosexuality without strong evidence is a social norm that has been lost and if statistical arguments can help restore it simply as a matter of Math And Logic, so much the better.

  82. Taleb actually does say in the Antifragility book that he lifts real objects not barbells.

    What to say about genetic IQ is like the Turkish Sandbag Get -Up: a tricky problem of the real world in which you have to stay centred and balance the means with the ends. If you want to make the truth widely known then assailing a hapless public with the truth, the whole truth and nothing but, and getting (predictably) Watsoned for saying it is going to be extremely counter-productive to the greater good. It is also flushing you (and your dependents’) life down the toilet.

  83. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Art Deco
    He's been married for 20-odd years and has 3 children.

    Sure, but it’s not like closeted men with wives and children are unheard of. There were a lot fewer rumors if any about Hastert. FWIW, it’s apparently an open secret among people in DC like the Log Cabin Republicans and other groups, and his nickname among Capitol Hill staffers and lobbyists is “Ben’s Asse”.

  84. “In competition the deadlifted weight is only raised to waist height and returned straight down. In real life streetwise physical workers may need to place weights on truck beds located above their waists.”

    Well yeah, but the point is that the amount of weight a person can deadlift is far more than her or she can lift into a truck bed.

  85. @Mike1
    It's not. Chubby middle aged men working in their garage use that phrase.

    Oh really? Here’s another: Why strain, use the crane.

  86. According to Ryan J Flaherty, the hex-bar deadlift is the single most important exercise he found for increasing running speed. Yes, that isn’t a classic deadlift. https://tim.blog/2017/05/07/ryan-flaherty/

  87. @Colin Wright
    Tangentially related: I used to have a moving business. Another mover once commented that he'd tried using weight lifters as mover's helpers; they were a disappointment.

    Speaking for myself, I can recall a few episodes demanding sheer, raw power; for example, there's the tale of the spinnet piano and the spiral staircase.

    However, and in general, care, stamina, and thinking through just how we were going to move the monster du jour were far more important than muscle mass.

    Those weight-training movers were a disappointment because they’re tired and sleepy from training. Squatting totals of 12,000 lbs for a session means lots of napping over the following 48-72 hrs as well as hobbling around like a car-wreck victim.

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    Gets worse as one ages too. At 67, I still haven't sorted out reps or weights. The reps demands sleep; the higher weight soreness.
  88. @Dave Pinsen
    I do warmups double overhand up to 335lbs and then mixed/alternate from there, because it gets too heavy for overhand and hook grip is unpleasant. Yes, I switch which hand is pronated on the work sets.

    The Versa Grips will radically improve every pulling exercise. You won’t believe the increase in weight. Run, don’t walk, to the review section at Amazon.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Will check them out, thanks.
    , @RaceRealist88
    Natural grip strength > tools to get around weak grip, core etc.
  89. @War for Blair Mountain
    The mathematician who found a flaw in a massive meteorlogical calculation done by THE GREAT SIMON LAPLACE(Probably as great as Ol’ Issac Newton)....A Working Class Native Born White American....Working Class Native Born White American Family.....maybe a High School Grad..self-taught mathematician from whatever math books he could scrounge around in local libraries....The father of American Meteorology....

    Given the enormous scientific depth of the IQ Test Score Psychometrics...we can retroactively predict this member of the White Working Class had an IQ way lower than Mittens Rommney...George H Bush....Samantha Powers......

    There is a discussion of this guy and several other average-below average IQ Test score Working Class Scientist-Mathematicians....over at Quora.....

    And I didn’t even mention the GREAT Joseph Fraunhoffer....he was nearly burnt to death in his Family’s Working Class Slum Home....But we can predict with 100 percent confidence retroactively that Joseph Fraunhoffer had a an IQ lower than Mitt Rommney and George H Bush...

    I didn’t even mention Working Class Retard Benjamin Finkel(Founded the American Mathematical Monthly)...or the Working Class Retard Robert Wallace(Wallace’s Formula)

    As accomplished (okay, “great,” – if you mean something different by that) as Isaac Newton?

    Really? Really? You lose credibility writing such things.

    • Replies: @War for Blair Mountain
    Laplace....”The Newton of France”......
    , @Autochthon
    Jean-Baptiste Poquelin (a great playwright, to be sure!) is pretty inarguably the Shakespeare of France, too, but those comparisons aren't saying much – in any language....
  90. @Dtbb
    An oft repeated phrase on construction sites: Don't work harder, work smarter.

    I’m pretty confident the most often repeated phrases on any American construction-site now are Spanish, amigo.

    Repeating them is just another job Americans won’t do.

    • Replies: @Dtbb
    Tell me about it. The one I hear very often is "pinche gringo bendejo". Thank god mexicans can't do math or I would have been out of a job years ago.
  91. Deadlifting is a pseudoscientific measure of strength. It is mean to select people in artificial competitions using weights arranged or “constructed” in unnatural configurations . . . .

    Very nice, Anon. Hits the trifecta — it’s witty, metaphorical, and dead on accurate.

    The reason they call it “g” is because it’s a measure of general cognitive ability. Just like deadlifting is just a general measure of strength. Criticizing valid, general measurements because they don’t predict every specific outcome is, of course, absurd.

    For example, all defensive lineman in the NFL can deadlift a massive amount. But that doesn’t mean you can be an NFL lineman just because you can deadlift a lot of weight. Does this mean it’s pseudo-science to use deadlift ability to predict NFL success?

    Likewise, high g (IQ), is a necessary condition for high intellectual achievement, but that doesn’t mean it’s “pseudo-science” merely because it isn’t also a sufficient condition for intellectual achievement.

    In short, Taleb’s position is exposed as nothing more than the simple-minded sophistry of confusing necessary and sufficient conditions for real world achievement.

  92. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean

    So what is deadlifting while believing in the genetic basis of average group IQ differences?
     
    The ultimate isolation exercise.


    Robert Plomin says that according to the majority view of intelligence researchers, the core of intelligence is ‘the ability to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend complex ideas, learn quickly, and learn from experience’.

    IQ tests are a good test of intelligence, But they won't make you more intelligent. A max deadlift would be good test of strength, but really quite likely to hurt your back, and not just if you use that round back competitive style.


    https://tim.blog/2018/06/01/the-tim-ferriss-show-transcripts-art-de-vany/

    Tim Ferriss: Are you responsible for getting Nassim Taleb deadlifting?

    Art De Vany: My fault. Well, you remember the story about Nassim. If you read the back section of that little section you wrote for my book, because here he was, a kurtosis trader. That is, he used distributions with wild characteristics. He was buying out of the money calls and puts and living on the variance. [...]

    Art De Vany: Well, I told Nassim to start doing negative deadlifts if he wants to improve his deadlifts. Have somebody help you put the bar up, lower it. Pick a height, put it up again and lower it again.

    And put it up again and lower it again. I do almost all negatives now.

    Tim Ferriss: Why is that? Why are eccentrics so important?

    Art De Vany: I’m doing eccentrics for really three reasons, the main one being that they double your stem cell counts and the satellite cells in the muscle. They double them but they don’t exhaust them. A lot of people, if you double the stem cells that flood out, you may exhaust them because you may simply exhaust the ones in the niche.

     

    Doing negative deadlifts while scoffing at group differences and IQ will make you more successful and give you greater power to say a little more of what you actually think.

    The importance of negatives was first identified by Arthur Jones, inventor of Nautilus machines, 50 odd years ago. Jones also emphasized the intensity, briefness, and infrequency of training, which are principles that De Vany and Taleb espouse now.

    It’s difficult to properly and effectively do negative focused training with barbells and other free weights. Because you can lower much more weight than you can lift, negative training involves using much heavier weight than normal. Doing negative only deadlifts for example would require at least two strong assistants, and it would be difficult to do effectively and safely as the weight is transferred to the trainee at the top of the lift position and you are suddenly loading the body and back with force.

    Jones tried to develop negative training specific machines but never quite succeeded. There are machines though that help with negative training, for example upper body presses with foot pedals that allow one to use their legs to raise the weight. And regular machines are generally the best way to do negative training. De Vany does negatives with machines, for example pushing on the leg press with both legs and lowering with one leg. There are new machines now that do negative training, though they’re expensive and not very common.

    • Replies: @Sean
    Devany has had kneee and shoulder replacements so perhaps he has special reasons for using certain machines. Taleb has a lot of ideas of his own. I do not think he uses machines puts emphasis on heavy weights for bone rather than muscle, and wrote about this in Antifragility. The New Yorker had an article on the researcher Taleb mentioned.
    https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of-technology/do-our-bones-influence-our-minds
    , @RaceRealist88
    Barbell training is superior to machine training re negatives - and all other facets of strength (though, of course, machine training has its place).
  93. @Chrisnonymous
    It probably does raise your IQ, relatively speaking. Compare becoming a doctor with becoming a nurse: who are your peers? what problems are you solving? what do you discuss with people? what do you read to keep up to date? how do you spend your free time? etc. Takethe same person and test them after 10 years as an MD vs 10 years as an RN and they'll score higher after working as an MD.

    Doubt it. The MD will have less free time and will be sleep deprived during their critical 20s and early 30s. The nurse can pursue intellectual pursuits in their free time, if they are so inclined.

    Does your average MD solve problems that are that complicated anyway? A lot of it is memorization and procedure. You’re giving them too much credit. Most MDs are not specialists or surgeons after all.

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    I am aware that MDs are not what many people think them to be. However, if they are doing their job (eg, keeping up in medical journals), they are at least engaging with statistics and probably biochemistry and perhaps physics. This can not be said for RNs, even the ones who actually read nursing journals, which is a pretty small percentage.

    Your point about sleep deprivation is true, but a lot of nurses are sleep-deprived too. Many are burning the candle at both ends with kids at home.
  94. @midtown
    Yes, but generally he is correct that lever length is very important in the tail ends of the weightlifting bell curve. I believe a long torso and relatively short legs would be beneficial in squatting. And short arms will help in the bench. Overall, being short period is easier in weightlifting as the lever lengths are shorter.

    “being short period is easier in weightlifting as the lever lengths are shorter”

    The weightlifter Precious McKenzie (4’9″) “has one of the longest-held world records in sports, (possibly the longest-held current record): 37 years. His 1,339 lb total in the 123 lb class, was achieved in 1979“.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precious_McKenzie#Career

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    It's certainly harder when you're taller, but I have a friend who's 6'9" and pulled 500lbs last year. Squats give him more trouble than deadlifts, but he's got a respectable squat.
  95. @midtown
    Yes, but generally he is correct that lever length is very important in the tail ends of the weightlifting bell curve. I believe a long torso and relatively short legs would be beneficial in squatting. And short arms will help in the bench. Overall, being short period is easier in weightlifting as the lever lengths are shorter.

    Sure, the smaller the lever length, the easier it is to lift a weight, relatively speaking. But he specifically said longer arms would reduce the distance of the deadlift. The problem with that is that most people are fairly proportional, so a guy with long arms will also be tall and have long legs, increasing the distance of the lift.

  96. @Autochthon
    As accomplished (okay, "great," – if you mean something different by that) as Isaac Newton?

    Really? Really? You lose credibility writing such things.

    Laplace….”The Newton of France”……

  97. I’d say that curls and military presses would be a lot more useful…

  98. @Eric Novak
    The Versa Grips will radically improve every pulling exercise. You won't believe the increase in weight. Run, don't walk, to the review section at Amazon.

    Will check them out, thanks.

  99. @YetAnotherAnon
    "being short period is easier in weightlifting as the lever lengths are shorter"

    The weightlifter Precious McKenzie (4'9") "has one of the longest-held world records in sports, (possibly the longest-held current record): 37 years. His 1,339 lb total in the 123 lb class, was achieved in 1979".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precious_McKenzie#Career

    It’s certainly harder when you’re taller, but I have a friend who’s 6’9″ and pulled 500lbs last year. Squats give him more trouble than deadlifts, but he’s got a respectable squat.

  100. @MarcB.
    Most weightlifters should avoid deadlifts until they are properly executing basic lifts. It takes quite a bit more focus and concentration to deadlift than arm curl.

    Totally disagree. Deads are the first or second lift to teach. Start light, work form, figure out what particulst flavor works best for you as a noob.

  101. @Dave Pinsen
    As far as I know, it’s really not possible to raise your IQ much, no matter what you do. If you get a medical degree, you will certainly know more, as you’re required to memorize a lot of things, but will your IQ be higher? Maybe James Thompson can weigh in.

    Doctors are the go-to smart idiots, but lawyers have an unfair advantage (they literally trade in justification), and both are probably balanced by holders of empty master’s degrees.

  102. @anonanonanon
    This is hilarious.

    Also, I think it's time to roll out the "Taleb is Bipolar" hypothesis. Based on my experience with bipolars, wife among others, it explains the bizarre leap into an area he's not an expert on, but which he now feels perfectly comfortable making ex cathedra statements about, denigrating other experts, Charles Murray as a mountebank?, and the excited passion of all his insights which will solve all the thorny issues of a difficult field.

    Bipolars love to QED stuff, Quod erat demonstrandum. My wife says that she and the other little girls would tell each other in geometry class that it actually stood for "Quite Easily Done," and that is a perfect summation of a bipolar mind entering a new field and figuring it all out in a flash where all the experts have struggled.

    >Murray a mountebank
    Murray’s industry, accomplishments, intelligence, and writing are unimpeachable. His solutions are dreamy, probably as an inevitable consequence of his establishmentarianism. The Madison Fund will never be allowed to exist.

  103. @International Jew
    For the cost of a single B2 bomber, we could ensure universal early childhood access to high-quality deadlifting facilities for our most vulnerable populations.

    We could even call the program Dead Start.

  104. @Autochthon
    As accomplished (okay, "great," – if you mean something different by that) as Isaac Newton?

    Really? Really? You lose credibility writing such things.

    Jean-Baptiste Poquelin (a great playwright, to be sure!) is pretty inarguably the Shakespeare of France, too, but those comparisons aren’t saying much – in any language….

  105. @keuril
    Thanks for the info. I am still a n00b with deadlift and squat barely stronger than my bench. What do you guys think about power cleans and (overhead) presses, which are also recommended in Starting Strength?

    Deads, squats, military/overhead presses, power cleans, bench, bent over rows are all basic lifts that build power, strength, and size. The meat and potatoes of weight trainjng. No matter the current guru or trend.

    Everything else is gravy. Oh other lifts have their places, like c&j or snatch, but often times become time sinks or diversions. Body builders will have other uses for more esoteric lifts.

    I have not had time for anything othet tgan the basics for many years. Family, career, etc. If i can hammer it hard 3x week i am doing great anf can make gains. Heck 2x now that i am older and need more than 7 days to recover from a heavy leg day.

    Good luck. Weight trainkng can be done into old age. It fills me with satisfaction, boh the lifting and the tracking. And despite causing minor injury on occasion, has protected me from serious and catastrophic injury several time in my life.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    has protected me from serious and catastrophic injury several time in my life.
     
    Care to elaborate?

    Secondarily, does it really take seven days to recover from a training session? I thought the standard was 48-72 hours.
  106. Anonymous[261] • Disclaimer says:
    @Logan
    The general consensus is that there is essentially nothing an adult can do to raise his IQ.

    Whereas almost anyone can increase their strength to at least some extent.

    A difference indeed rests in when you can make improvement. But I’d argue that with requirements for nearly free full day education, and opportunities to push yourself for more, as well as identifying nutrients necessary for a healthy body and brain, such as folic acid, and pushing for pregnant women and kids to get them, western societies already strives quite heavily for everyone’s IQ to develop about as much as they reasonably can, alot more than society expends for you to develop your physical strength. That’s because intelligence is far more useful in modern society for most jobs and for an optimally functioning society. No, book learnin’ isn’t IQ, but a lack of mental stimulation as a kid stunts IQ. As does a lack of key micronutrients.

    • Replies: @adreadline

    No, book learnin’ isn’t IQ, but a lack of mental stimulation as a kid stunts IQ. As does a lack of key micronutrients.
     
    Book learning isn't IQ, but the higher one's IQ is, the more likely they are to be bookish and such, yes? Statistically, there aren't many bookish 95 IQ folks, are there?

    Also, when you say lack of mental stimulation (combined with a lack of key micronutrients), would that be like sensory deprivation, as in, growing up in a dark cell with nutrient-deficient, lead-laden food (potato chips with flake white) being given through a hole in the door? Cause if so, then yea, pretty sure that might stunt one's IQ quite a bit.
    , @Anonymous

    but a lack of mental stimulation as a kid stunts IQ.
     
    Cite?
  107. @Autochthon
    I'm pretty confident the most often repeated phrases on any American construction-site now are Spanish, amigo.

    Repeating them is just another job Americans won't do.

    Tell me about it. The one I hear very often is “pinche gringo bendejo”. Thank god mexicans can’t do math or I would have been out of a job years ago.

  108. Always remember this guy, who during the Cold War seemed like a gentle giant-

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasily_Alekseyev

    Trained occasionally in Lou Ferrigno’s’ family gym in Brooklyn; he mostly lent his name, never saw him there. The powerlifters mostly kept to themselves in the basement. I have the last few years become very friendly with one guy who owned a bunch of 1980s NY state power lifting records. But in his later years even though I still see him working out in another gym, he’s had a lot of issues with nerve damage, torn muscles and joint issues. Suspect back then (1970s/80s) there was no testing for anything and nobody had any clue about long term damage . My brother after getting clean from substance abuse began working out like crazy and trying to get ahead with chemistry; led to some serious cardiac issues. Even Alekseyev’s Wiki entry notes he dealt with cardiac issues, and have to figure given Soviet block training, he used. Not to say every power lifter uses roids, simply it was very common until recently.

    Would mostly agree with Mr. Pinsen but it’s not for everyone.

  109. @Logan
    The general consensus is that there is essentially nothing an adult can do to raise his IQ.

    Whereas almost anyone can increase their strength to at least some extent.

    To at least some extent, sure. Genes put a cap on that, too. If I treated you to my astounding physique, after rubbing your eyes and getting out of the dreamlike state such a sight would put you in, there’s a small chance you’d question that, despite my sexy self, I could reach the same body type that a certain former California governor used to have. Even if I worked out really hard — which of course I could do, it’s not like I’m lazy or anything, and it’s not like being lazy has anything to do with dem genetics, right? It was just that my parents didn’t motivate me enough, or something…

  110. “Deadlifting is a pseudoscientific measure of strength”

    Nonsense.

    “People who really succeed in physical jobs in real life need to be able to deal with weights in all shapes, with handholds of varying types — or no handholds — and with surface textures and slipperinesses of various values.”

    I have a buddy who does tree work. He said to me one day “Tree strength is different from weight strength. You can’t lift X logs, it doesn’t matter if you’re ‘weight strong.’” I challenged him to overgead press just 75 pounds—he couldn’t do it.

    Find me someone who can deadlift 100 pounds and someone who can deadlift 315—I guarantee that the one who can deadlift 315 is more functionally able in a manual labor job, no doubt about it.

    “In competition the deadlifted weight is only raised to waist height and returned straight down. In real life streetwise physical workers may need to place weights on truck beds located above their waists.”

    Yea, almost as if different types of Olympic lifts and functional exercises—along with the OHP—would help with that . . .

    Congratulations. This is the dumbest thing I’ve ever read on this website, and with all of the IQ BS floating around here, that’s saying something.

    If you want an actual analogy read my article on athletic ability and IQ.

    https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2017/12/30/athletic-ability-and-iq/

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
    Don't just "disagree", explain how I'm wrong.
    , @Hail

    • Disagree: John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
     
    Bug found in 'Disagree button' functionality:

    The commenter "John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan" is one person but uses a comma in his handle. The Disagree button misreads this as two people.
    , @Slightly Contemptuous
    It’s satire, dude. Jesus...
  111. @Dave Pinsen
    It's not: men who can deadlift a lot can generally lift all sorts of heavy things. They're called strongmen, and you can find videos of them lifting stuff like logs or atlas stones on YouTube.

    It's actually a pretty good analogy. Deadlifting strength will correlate highly with being a good strongman, like high IQ will correlate highly with being good at g-loaded jobs, but the correlation won't be perfect in either case. There are some skills particular to strongman competitions that you won't develop just from deadlifting or doing other barbell exercises: for example, with atlas stones, you need to lift with a rounded back, which isn't what you're supposed to do when you deadlift. Nevertheless, strength, like IQ, is broadly applicable.

    Where the analogy breaks down is that you can improve your strength a lot more than you can improve your IQ.

    “g-loaded”

    Built into the test by way of item selection and analysis.

    The analogy was horrible.

  112. @Anonymous
    A difference indeed rests in when you can make improvement. But I’d argue that with requirements for nearly free full day education, and opportunities to push yourself for more, as well as identifying nutrients necessary for a healthy body and brain, such as folic acid, and pushing for pregnant women and kids to get them, western societies already strives quite heavily for everyone’s IQ to develop about as much as they reasonably can, alot more than society expends for you to develop your physical strength. That’s because intelligence is far more useful in modern society for most jobs and for an optimally functioning society. No, book learnin’ isn’t IQ, but a lack of mental stimulation as a kid stunts IQ. As does a lack of key micronutrients.

    No, book learnin’ isn’t IQ, but a lack of mental stimulation as a kid stunts IQ. As does a lack of key micronutrients.

    Book learning isn’t IQ, but the higher one’s IQ is, the more likely they are to be bookish and such, yes? Statistically, there aren’t many bookish 95 IQ folks, are there?

    Also, when you say lack of mental stimulation (combined with a lack of key micronutrients), would that be like sensory deprivation, as in, growing up in a dark cell with nutrient-deficient, lead-laden food (potato chips with flake white) being given through a hole in the door? Cause if so, then yea, pretty sure that might stunt one’s IQ quite a bit.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Statistically, there aren’t many bookish 95 IQ folks, are there?

    It's not uncommon among women with 95 IQs to read tons of romance novels.

  113. @Colin Wright
    Tangentially related: I used to have a moving business. Another mover once commented that he'd tried using weight lifters as mover's helpers; they were a disappointment.

    Speaking for myself, I can recall a few episodes demanding sheer, raw power; for example, there's the tale of the spinnet piano and the spiral staircase.

    However, and in general, care, stamina, and thinking through just how we were going to move the monster du jour were far more important than muscle mass.

    If you’re not strong you’ll be a horrible mover.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    'If you’re not strong you’ll be a horrible mover.'

    I did have my moving business for eighteen years -- and I saw a lot of helpers.

    Speaking from experience, I can only recall one or two cases where a simple lack of physical strength was really the problem. What was really more important was attitude.

    I used to move triple dressers, etc loaded -- saves so much time. You bend over, you get your hands under the dresser, and you make yourself stand up. Just frigging do it. That seemed to owe as much to attitude as literal physical power. One of my best helpers couldn't have weighed more than one hundred and forty pounds, and there was also a fat little Mexican who -- appearances notwithstanding -- was pretty damned good.

    I used to hold 'job interviews' that really consisted of two parts. 1. Can you actually show up on time at least once in your life? 2. Can you pick up a 3.0 cubic foot box filled with my record collection?

    Those precautions taken, the question afterwards really was 'can you hustle?' and 'can you keep from banging things?' Those qualities -- not physical strength -- tended to be people's weak points.
  114. As Dan Bongino has pointed out, the purpose of Dead Lifting is to strengthen the total body, not to perform work-related lifts. It is an exercise that is very valuable for not only muscles but the structural underpinning of the body. To many, it belongs in the repertoire of exercise. Like MOST exercises, it is performed for individual physical benefit and health, not competitive lifting. That is another matter that is of concern to a small minority who actively compete.

  115. @Anonym
    Deadlifting seems to be the lone sop to people with long levers (arms at least) among the so-called power lifts. A reasonable part of success comes down to biomechanics after technique and strength in those lifts. The shorter the distance the limbs must move to complete the distance, and the larger the muscles to partake in the lift, the greater the total.

    E.g. in a bench press you want to have a deep chest and short arms, and make your technique emphasize this. It is more a test of force than power in the physics sense, though it is dynamic.

    A long limbed guy could do more physical work in the one lift, but this is not measured. Where is this output competitively measured?

    I believe you call them "sports".

    My article on race and the big four lifts is apt here:

    https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2017/12/23/race-and-strength-on-the-big-four-lifts/

    What is “power”? What is “strength”?

  116. @Anonym
    Where the analogy breaks down is that you can improve your strength a lot more than you can improve your IQ.

    I am not so sure. A smart man can become a doctor or an engineer for example. But usually not both in a lifetime. A strong man might choose to become a football player or MMA athlete, but usually not both.

    In sports and professions you are relying on a lot of training, resting on the shoulders of giants to excel. If you had to try to figure it all out on your own it would be near impossible. Smart people without specific training will just say IANAL or IANAD or IANAE because it is accepted that you can't just substitute a high IQ for professionally recognized ability.

    The blank slate is wrong however. You need to be naturally strong to succeed at strength sports and you need to be naturally smart to succeed at high IQ professions.

    “The blank slate is wrong however”

    Name and quote “blank slaters” “blank slating”.

    • Replies: @Anonym
    Name and quote “blank slaters” “blank slating”.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mismeasure_of_Man

    You can also dig up the references from Pinker's eponymous book.

    Maybe also talk to some boomers or SJWs.
  117. @keuril
    Dave, what do you think of Starting Strength's emphasis on the squat over the deadlift? Did you shift your focus from squat to deadlift over time?

    Squatting at around 85% of 1RM increases bone density and testosterone production. I like Ripp’s program for beginners, but, of course, as one progresses, priorities change.

  118. @adreadline

    No, book learnin’ isn’t IQ, but a lack of mental stimulation as a kid stunts IQ. As does a lack of key micronutrients.
     
    Book learning isn't IQ, but the higher one's IQ is, the more likely they are to be bookish and such, yes? Statistically, there aren't many bookish 95 IQ folks, are there?

    Also, when you say lack of mental stimulation (combined with a lack of key micronutrients), would that be like sensory deprivation, as in, growing up in a dark cell with nutrient-deficient, lead-laden food (potato chips with flake white) being given through a hole in the door? Cause if so, then yea, pretty sure that might stunt one's IQ quite a bit.

    Statistically, there aren’t many bookish 95 IQ folks, are there?

    It’s not uncommon among women with 95 IQs to read tons of romance novels.

    • Replies: @Hail
    I was going to say, take a peek in one of the Little Free Libraries (LFL) (a movement that started in 2012; 75,000 in existence nationwide as of Aug. 2018).

    They operate on the age-old honor system of "take a book, leave a book."

    Many are just crammed full of romance novels. This suggests to me that these romance novels possess a high 'velocity' (as an economist might put it).
  119. @Hail
    Very nicely done, if an in-joke which those not following the Taleb-vs.-LotsofPeople affair will not get. Which makes me feel not guilty about OT'ing:

    Swindle
     
    I present 2019's first media swindle:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dv8eDDZWkAEBVPg.jpg



    To add to list of the words that need retirement: "Maverick."

    The best joke I’ve heard about Mitt Romney is that he’ll always stand by your side when he needs you.

    • Replies: @Hail

    he’ll always stand by your side when he needs you
     
    Between Flake and Romney, Mormons not looking good in U.S. political spotlight.

    Are there any more prominent Mormon politicians in the late 2010s?
  120. @stillCARealist
    One of the top deadlifters in my gym is a tall, fat chick. The best guys can beat her, but only the best, and not by much.

    Lifting weights will make you swole, for sure, but don't count on getting shredded without serious nutritional determination. AKA, starvation.

    “but don’t count on getting shredded without serious nutritional determination. AKA, starvation.”

    What’s your justification for this claim? Have you ever dieted down yourself – or even worked with people who are losing weight on a strength program?

    • Replies: @silviosilver

    What’s your justification for this claim? Have you ever dieted down yourself – or even worked with people who are losing weight on a strength program?
     
    He was obviously exaggerating, but if you had ever dieted down to single digit bodyfat percentage, you would know how tough some days are - not too different to "starving," frankly. Anyone who claims you're doing it "wrong" if it feels that strenuous is either lucky or has never done it.
    , @stillCARealist

    What’s your justification for this claim? Have you ever dieted down yourself – or even worked with people who are losing weight on a strength program?
     
    Yes. Both.

    The nutritional coach at my gym has a client who is doing a short term (six weeks?) test to see what he can look like. He's got great muscles, but is going for that superhero look where every tiny muscle is visible. He's starving and hating his workouts, but there's no denying the results.

    https://www.muscleandfitness.com/workouts/abs-and-core-exercises/six-moves-shredded-six-pack

    This is pretty close to what he looks like.

    He's already abandoning the strenuous diet and filling out a bit, but it was fun to watch.
  121. @Dtbb
    Why the alternating grip in deadlifting? Do you switch hands while training?

    You can move more weight with a mixed grip – but if your supine hand is not fully extended, then a bicep tear is possible.

  122. @Lowe
    Lifting weights won't make the underlying dimensions of your body any bigger. You will remain the same height, and have limbs of the same length, and same shoulder breadth.

    You cannot work out or weight lift yourself into being a competitive athlete in a sport that many care about, like American football, basketball, or even sports like baseball or soccer. Those last two depend on things like eyesight, reaction time and coordination, which are also hard or impossible to improve with training.

    Of course, with weight training you can increase the size of your muscles, your strength and power, your endurance, and the aesthetic and sexual appeal of your body. But physical strength and prowess in general are easily analogous to IQ. You can lift as much as your want, but great athletes or strongmen are born, not made.

    “But physical strength and prowess in general are easily analogous to IQ. You can lift as much as your want, but great athletes or strongmen are born, not made.”

    Nonsense. IQ is not a ‘real’ thing in the brain – the mental is irreducible to the physical.

  123. @Dave Pinsen
    What do you think?

    https://twitter.com/Mangan150/status/1080570474222907393

    Rounded back. Bad lift.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Right, and a few people pointed that out on Twitter. He wasn't too receptive to their constructive criticism.

    https://twitter.com/Mangan150/status/1080629268151857152


    Also, a deadlift shouldn't be bounced off the floor - it should come up from a dead stop (if he used a more challenging weight, that would resolve itself automatically).
  124. anonymous[273] • Disclaimer says:

    He might be right but so what? Sports aren’t ‘real world’ anyway. People use machines for lifting and drive rather than having to be able to run 26.5 miles. For that matter why have spelling contests when in reality everyone just looks the words up online? It’s all artificial and the vast majority of people could get by weighing 400 lbs and scooting around on one of those motorized personal vehicles. People don’t labor from sunup to sundown anymore and need to fill up their free time with things that catch their attention. Working out feels good for many people and reminds them that they have a body.

  125. @racerealist88
    If you're not strong you'll be a horrible mover.

    ‘If you’re not strong you’ll be a horrible mover.’

    I did have my moving business for eighteen years — and I saw a lot of helpers.

    Speaking from experience, I can only recall one or two cases where a simple lack of physical strength was really the problem. What was really more important was attitude.

    I used to move triple dressers, etc loaded — saves so much time. You bend over, you get your hands under the dresser, and you make yourself stand up. Just frigging do it. That seemed to owe as much to attitude as literal physical power. One of my best helpers couldn’t have weighed more than one hundred and forty pounds, and there was also a fat little Mexican who — appearances notwithstanding — was pretty damned good.

    I used to hold ‘job interviews’ that really consisted of two parts. 1. Can you actually show up on time at least once in your life? 2. Can you pick up a 3.0 cubic foot box filled with my record collection?

    Those precautions taken, the question afterwards really was ‘can you hustle?’ and ‘can you keep from banging things?’ Those qualities — not physical strength — tended to be people’s weak points.

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
    I did moving years ago. I also did manual labor. I can guarantee - from my experience, at least - that if you're not strong you'll just hold everyone back. Some people aren't cut out for that type of work, and if you're relatively weak, you'll just hold everyone back.
    , @J.Ross
    Moving is a fantastic job for a young uncredentialled man, and would be as good as a couple of years in construction to enable someone to enter college without fully stupefying.
  126. @keuril
    Thanks for the info. I am still a n00b with deadlift and squat barely stronger than my bench. What do you guys think about power cleans and (overhead) presses, which are also recommended in Starting Strength?

    I don’t think cleans are necessary for non-athletes, but presses fill a role. You should consider Bulgarian split squats (one foot back on a bench). They reduce the pressure on the back because of less weight and help to smooth out any side-to-side strength asymmetries.

  127. @Anonymous
    The importance of negatives was first identified by Arthur Jones, inventor of Nautilus machines, 50 odd years ago. Jones also emphasized the intensity, briefness, and infrequency of training, which are principles that De Vany and Taleb espouse now.

    It's difficult to properly and effectively do negative focused training with barbells and other free weights. Because you can lower much more weight than you can lift, negative training involves using much heavier weight than normal. Doing negative only deadlifts for example would require at least two strong assistants, and it would be difficult to do effectively and safely as the weight is transferred to the trainee at the top of the lift position and you are suddenly loading the body and back with force.

    Jones tried to develop negative training specific machines but never quite succeeded. There are machines though that help with negative training, for example upper body presses with foot pedals that allow one to use their legs to raise the weight. And regular machines are generally the best way to do negative training. De Vany does negatives with machines, for example pushing on the leg press with both legs and lowering with one leg. There are new machines now that do negative training, though they're expensive and not very common.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=he-9UkQDcNA

    Devany has had kneee and shoulder replacements so perhaps he has special reasons for using certain machines. Taleb has a lot of ideas of his own. I do not think he uses machines puts emphasis on heavy weights for bone rather than muscle, and wrote about this in Antifragility. The New Yorker had an article on the researcher Taleb mentioned.
    https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of-technology/do-our-bones-influence-our-minds

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    De Vany mentioned negative training with machines before his knee replacements. I believe after his knee replacements he became more wary about heavy barbell work.

    There are deadlift machines, although they're basically the same thing as barbell deadlifts.

    As far as I know, Taleb does deadlifts, squats, and presses. It looks like he would benefit from using machines instead. As far as bones, you can safely load more weight via techniques using machines, so I don't see why they wouldn't be stressed just the same or even more so. Though I don't know enough about bones to say for sure.

    https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/1005535320845225984
  128. @Zogby
    That's a load of crap. Deadlifting is just one event that deadlifters participate in among different strength competitions, and they have to train most parts of the body to be good. They'd easily do all those everyday chores that the writer considers a challenge, perhaps with some minimal additional training. But they're professional athletes that devote hours each day for training, have to follow proper nutrition and rest to succeed. The comparison to acquiring skills for everyday work is ridiculous - misplaced envy where there's no rational reason to be envious.

    But they’re professional athletes that devote hours each day for training

    Yeah dude, powerlifters train for “hours each day.” Lol.

  129. @Janus
    Just a bit of random advice. Besides making sure your form is good so as to protect your back, it's also important to breathe correctly during high-rep sets of deadlifts. I once almost gave myself an aneurysm after about 17 reps with too much breath-holding at what was for me a fairly heavy weight. I'm still a bit concerned that I did some permanent damage. Many people instinctively feel that holding their breath increases their power, but it's not really true and tends to be counter-productive, even if it doesn't end in a stroke. That said, I think it's just about time to head to the garage for a few sets. If I were limited to only being able to do one lift, deadlift would be it. Squats are possibly even better, but I personally like doing them much less.

    Learn to how to do the Valsalva maneuver correctly. (Don’t do it if you have high BP or heart problems.)

    • Replies: @Janus
    Thanks for the tip. I had actually never heard the term Valsalva maneuver before. I realize that I still naturally do a version of this, but before I would have a tendency to hold my breath through multiple reps, which would sometimes cause some really severe BP spikes. My normal BP is fine, and I find that I no longer run into any problems as long as I remain aware of what's going on.
  130. @Eric Novak
    The Versa Grips will radically improve every pulling exercise. You won't believe the increase in weight. Run, don't walk, to the review section at Amazon.

    Natural grip strength > tools to get around weak grip, core etc.

  131. @RaceRealist88
    Rounded back. Bad lift.

    Right, and a few people pointed that out on Twitter. He wasn’t too receptive to their constructive criticism.

    Also, a deadlift shouldn’t be bounced off the floor – it should come up from a dead stop (if he used a more challenging weight, that would resolve itself automatically).

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
    Yea . . . if he wants back problems in a few years, then he won't listen. He's in amazing shape for his age, though.

    "Also, a deadlift shouldn’t be bounced off the floor – it should come up from a dead stop (if he used a more challenging weight, that would resolve itself automatically)."

    This. You should always "reset" after each rep.
  132. @Anonymous
    The importance of negatives was first identified by Arthur Jones, inventor of Nautilus machines, 50 odd years ago. Jones also emphasized the intensity, briefness, and infrequency of training, which are principles that De Vany and Taleb espouse now.

    It's difficult to properly and effectively do negative focused training with barbells and other free weights. Because you can lower much more weight than you can lift, negative training involves using much heavier weight than normal. Doing negative only deadlifts for example would require at least two strong assistants, and it would be difficult to do effectively and safely as the weight is transferred to the trainee at the top of the lift position and you are suddenly loading the body and back with force.

    Jones tried to develop negative training specific machines but never quite succeeded. There are machines though that help with negative training, for example upper body presses with foot pedals that allow one to use their legs to raise the weight. And regular machines are generally the best way to do negative training. De Vany does negatives with machines, for example pushing on the leg press with both legs and lowering with one leg. There are new machines now that do negative training, though they're expensive and not very common.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=he-9UkQDcNA

    Barbell training is superior to machine training re negatives – and all other facets of strength (though, of course, machine training has its place).

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    This isn't true. You can't do negative training with barbells without assistants, and even then it's not as easy and effective and safe to do.

    There are other techniques besides negatives, such as emphasizing time under tension, that are difficult with barbells.

    Barbells are fashionable nowadays but there's a lot of dogma regarding their alleged superiority. Rippetoe intimidates a lot of insecure and self-conscious younger guys into mindlessly following his views, and he blusters and bluffs his way through any serious questions and challenges to his dogma.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKjNN4dFbfw
  133. @Colin Wright
    'If you’re not strong you’ll be a horrible mover.'

    I did have my moving business for eighteen years -- and I saw a lot of helpers.

    Speaking from experience, I can only recall one or two cases where a simple lack of physical strength was really the problem. What was really more important was attitude.

    I used to move triple dressers, etc loaded -- saves so much time. You bend over, you get your hands under the dresser, and you make yourself stand up. Just frigging do it. That seemed to owe as much to attitude as literal physical power. One of my best helpers couldn't have weighed more than one hundred and forty pounds, and there was also a fat little Mexican who -- appearances notwithstanding -- was pretty damned good.

    I used to hold 'job interviews' that really consisted of two parts. 1. Can you actually show up on time at least once in your life? 2. Can you pick up a 3.0 cubic foot box filled with my record collection?

    Those precautions taken, the question afterwards really was 'can you hustle?' and 'can you keep from banging things?' Those qualities -- not physical strength -- tended to be people's weak points.

    I did moving years ago. I also did manual labor. I can guarantee – from my experience, at least – that if you’re not strong you’ll just hold everyone back. Some people aren’t cut out for that type of work, and if you’re relatively weak, you’ll just hold everyone back.

  134. @Dave Pinsen
    Right, and a few people pointed that out on Twitter. He wasn't too receptive to their constructive criticism.

    https://twitter.com/Mangan150/status/1080629268151857152


    Also, a deadlift shouldn't be bounced off the floor - it should come up from a dead stop (if he used a more challenging weight, that would resolve itself automatically).

    Yea . . . if he wants back problems in a few years, then he won’t listen. He’s in amazing shape for his age, though.

    “Also, a deadlift shouldn’t be bounced off the floor – it should come up from a dead stop (if he used a more challenging weight, that would resolve itself automatically).”

    This. You should always “reset” after each rep.

  135. @Dave Pinsen
    People with long arms usually have long legs too.

    But if you have long arms and short legs the deadlift coul be for you. Lamar Gant comes to mind. Met Juoko Ahola at a competition and watched him destroy the car deadlift. Beautiful form, technique. The shoulders always lock before the hips. Ahola was a genetic freak. I always appreciated that my hs powerlifting coach emphasized deadlift first before squat and bench in that order.

  136. @Colin Wright
    Tangentially related: I used to have a moving business. Another mover once commented that he'd tried using weight lifters as mover's helpers; they were a disappointment.

    Speaking for myself, I can recall a few episodes demanding sheer, raw power; for example, there's the tale of the spinnet piano and the spiral staircase.

    However, and in general, care, stamina, and thinking through just how we were going to move the monster du jour were far more important than muscle mass.

    The last time I moved, the head of the crew was a little wiry guy about 5’5″. He showed up at sunrise, breakfasted on black coffee and smokes, and proceeded to put on a display of strength and endurance such as I have never seen. At one point he carried a solid oak chest of drawers down a flight of stairs by himself. It was like watching a chimpanzee bodyslam a grizzly bear. Recalling this I seriously wonder whether he was on crystal meth or something.

    • Replies: @Corn
    Being a little wiry guy probably gave him his endurance.

    A large man could probably do the lifts but a few trips down the stairs would leave them huffing and puffing.
  137. @anonanonanon
    This is hilarious.

    Also, I think it's time to roll out the "Taleb is Bipolar" hypothesis. Based on my experience with bipolars, wife among others, it explains the bizarre leap into an area he's not an expert on, but which he now feels perfectly comfortable making ex cathedra statements about, denigrating other experts, Charles Murray as a mountebank?, and the excited passion of all his insights which will solve all the thorny issues of a difficult field.

    Bipolars love to QED stuff, Quod erat demonstrandum. My wife says that she and the other little girls would tell each other in geometry class that it actually stood for "Quite Easily Done," and that is a perfect summation of a bipolar mind entering a new field and figuring it all out in a flash where all the experts have struggled.

    My wife says that she and the other little girls would tell each other in geometry class that it actually stood for “Quite Easily Done,”

    Hey, don’t laugh. My gym teacher used to say that, and I took him at face value. I didn’t learn otherwise until well into college.

  138. @Charles Erwin Wilson II
    The first assertion is false.

    Deadlifting is a pseudoscientific measure of strength.
     
    The fact that deadlifts require strength and are quantifiable measures ensures that they are susceptible to scientific study. That is without considering the health benefits associated with deads. If you have lower-back problems like a ruptured disc, deads (with proper form and appropriate weight) are a great way to compensate. Add in the other major barbell exercises and you have a program that can cure the disease. IIRC 25-40% of participants in a scientific study of those with disc problems reported no pain after the training period, much better than any drug. Plus you can avoid surgery.

    It is the criticism of deadlifting offered above that is pseudoscientific, not the exercise.

    The author was satirizing NNT’s response to our beloved host.

  139. @insertnamehere
    Are you inviting a lynch mob?

    ============E

    Until this installment of the Annals of iSteve, I’d always thought deadlifting was a Three Stooges episode.

  140. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @RaceRealist88
    Barbell training is superior to machine training re negatives - and all other facets of strength (though, of course, machine training has its place).

    This isn’t true. You can’t do negative training with barbells without assistants, and even then it’s not as easy and effective and safe to do.

    There are other techniques besides negatives, such as emphasizing time under tension, that are difficult with barbells.

    Barbells are fashionable nowadays but there’s a lot of dogma regarding their alleged superiority. Rippetoe intimidates a lot of insecure and self-conscious younger guys into mindlessly following his views, and he blusters and bluffs his way through any serious questions and challenges to his dogma.

  141. @racerealist88
    "but don’t count on getting shredded without serious nutritional determination. AKA, starvation."

    What's your justification for this claim? Have you ever dieted down yourself - or even worked with people who are losing weight on a strength program?

    What’s your justification for this claim? Have you ever dieted down yourself – or even worked with people who are losing weight on a strength program?

    He was obviously exaggerating, but if you had ever dieted down to single digit bodyfat percentage, you would know how tough some days are – not too different to “starving,” frankly. Anyone who claims you’re doing it “wrong” if it feels that strenuous is either lucky or has never done it.

  142. @Faraday's Bobcat
    The last time I moved, the head of the crew was a little wiry guy about 5'5". He showed up at sunrise, breakfasted on black coffee and smokes, and proceeded to put on a display of strength and endurance such as I have never seen. At one point he carried a solid oak chest of drawers down a flight of stairs by himself. It was like watching a chimpanzee bodyslam a grizzly bear. Recalling this I seriously wonder whether he was on crystal meth or something.

    Being a little wiry guy probably gave him his endurance.

    A large man could probably do the lifts but a few trips down the stairs would leave them huffing and puffing.

    • Replies: @Loretta
    I once worked as a driller's offsider, which was a 90 hour/week heavy metal challenge that sits somewhere between Egyptian slavery and attempted suicide by crossfit. I was the smallest, whitest-collar guy there, but I still outlasted a couple of 6'5" gorillas. Got out before it killed me though.
  143. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean
    Devany has had kneee and shoulder replacements so perhaps he has special reasons for using certain machines. Taleb has a lot of ideas of his own. I do not think he uses machines puts emphasis on heavy weights for bone rather than muscle, and wrote about this in Antifragility. The New Yorker had an article on the researcher Taleb mentioned.
    https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of-technology/do-our-bones-influence-our-minds

    De Vany mentioned negative training with machines before his knee replacements. I believe after his knee replacements he became more wary about heavy barbell work.

    There are deadlift machines, although they’re basically the same thing as barbell deadlifts.

    As far as I know, Taleb does deadlifts, squats, and presses. It looks like he would benefit from using machines instead. As far as bones, you can safely load more weight via techniques using machines, so I don’t see why they wouldn’t be stressed just the same or even more so. Though I don’t know enough about bones to say for sure.

    • Replies: @Loretta
    While deads and squats no doubt have their own plusses, I like machines because they make drop sets easy. Drop sets never fail to get my target muscles aching in two days time, which says mission accomplished to me.
    , @Dave Pinsen
    It looks like he would benefit from some coaching on squats from his friend Rippetoe. My knees used to hurt from squats too - because I was doing them wrong. When you do them correctly, your knees don't hurt.
    , @Sean
    Taleb seems to have a far more conventional approach to lifting than he asserted in Antifragility. But at least he is honest.

    No matter what they tell you.
     
    Indeed.
  144. @anon
    Never heard of Ben Sasse before, nor seen him, nor do I know anything about him.

    But based on that picture alone, I got fifty bucks that says he's gay. Any takers?

    Because he is “sassy?”

  145. @Corn
    Being a little wiry guy probably gave him his endurance.

    A large man could probably do the lifts but a few trips down the stairs would leave them huffing and puffing.

    I once worked as a driller’s offsider, which was a 90 hour/week heavy metal challenge that sits somewhere between Egyptian slavery and attempted suicide by crossfit. I was the smallest, whitest-collar guy there, but I still outlasted a couple of 6’5″ gorillas. Got out before it killed me though.

  146. @Anonymous
    De Vany mentioned negative training with machines before his knee replacements. I believe after his knee replacements he became more wary about heavy barbell work.

    There are deadlift machines, although they're basically the same thing as barbell deadlifts.

    As far as I know, Taleb does deadlifts, squats, and presses. It looks like he would benefit from using machines instead. As far as bones, you can safely load more weight via techniques using machines, so I don't see why they wouldn't be stressed just the same or even more so. Though I don't know enough about bones to say for sure.

    https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/1005535320845225984

    While deads and squats no doubt have their own plusses, I like machines because they make drop sets easy. Drop sets never fail to get my target muscles aching in two days time, which says mission accomplished to me.

  147. Ignorant people like to point out that the Inuit cannot deadlift as much as other people. All right-thinking people know that the reason is the scarcity of gym equipment in the far North, and the lack of suitable role models. We therefore insist that no one research the matter, because their only reason for doing so would be to promote the racist, hateful conclusion that the Inuit are not as strong as races from warmer latitudes.

    Deadlifting is a problematic and culturally biased measure of strength, and this shows that the concept of strength is itself racist, sexist, and transphobic. We refuse to talk about it, and so must you. If you mention the word again, we will see to it that you never work again in this town. Or any other.

  148. @Anonymous
    De Vany mentioned negative training with machines before his knee replacements. I believe after his knee replacements he became more wary about heavy barbell work.

    There are deadlift machines, although they're basically the same thing as barbell deadlifts.

    As far as I know, Taleb does deadlifts, squats, and presses. It looks like he would benefit from using machines instead. As far as bones, you can safely load more weight via techniques using machines, so I don't see why they wouldn't be stressed just the same or even more so. Though I don't know enough about bones to say for sure.

    https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/1005535320845225984

    It looks like he would benefit from some coaching on squats from his friend Rippetoe. My knees used to hurt from squats too – because I was doing them wrong. When you do them correctly, your knees don’t hurt.

  149. @Anonym
    Deadlifting seems to be the lone sop to people with long levers (arms at least) among the so-called power lifts. A reasonable part of success comes down to biomechanics after technique and strength in those lifts. The shorter the distance the limbs must move to complete the distance, and the larger the muscles to partake in the lift, the greater the total.

    E.g. in a bench press you want to have a deep chest and short arms, and make your technique emphasize this. It is more a test of force than power in the physics sense, though it is dynamic.

    A long limbed guy could do more physical work in the one lift, but this is not measured. Where is this output competitively measured?

    I believe you call them "sports".

    That’s why they have three lifts. Deadlift, Benchpress and squat. Who totals the greatest amount is the winner. They used to have the two hand curl until it became too hard to judge and was dis-continued.

    Same in the Olympic lifts. Two hand snatch and two hand Clean and Jerk and total wins it. Back in the early 70’s they discontinued the two hand press because it became too difficult too judge.

  150. @Colin Wright
    'If you’re not strong you’ll be a horrible mover.'

    I did have my moving business for eighteen years -- and I saw a lot of helpers.

    Speaking from experience, I can only recall one or two cases where a simple lack of physical strength was really the problem. What was really more important was attitude.

    I used to move triple dressers, etc loaded -- saves so much time. You bend over, you get your hands under the dresser, and you make yourself stand up. Just frigging do it. That seemed to owe as much to attitude as literal physical power. One of my best helpers couldn't have weighed more than one hundred and forty pounds, and there was also a fat little Mexican who -- appearances notwithstanding -- was pretty damned good.

    I used to hold 'job interviews' that really consisted of two parts. 1. Can you actually show up on time at least once in your life? 2. Can you pick up a 3.0 cubic foot box filled with my record collection?

    Those precautions taken, the question afterwards really was 'can you hustle?' and 'can you keep from banging things?' Those qualities -- not physical strength -- tended to be people's weak points.

    Moving is a fantastic job for a young uncredentialled man, and would be as good as a couple of years in construction to enable someone to enter college without fully stupefying.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    How do these jobs relate to not stupefying in college?
  151. @RaceRealist88
    Learn to how to do the Valsalva maneuver correctly. (Don't do it if you have high BP or heart problems.)

    Thanks for the tip. I had actually never heard the term Valsalva maneuver before. I realize that I still naturally do a version of this, but before I would have a tendency to hold my breath through multiple reps, which would sometimes cause some really severe BP spikes. My normal BP is fine, and I find that I no longer run into any problems as long as I remain aware of what’s going on.

  152. @Steve Sailer
    Statistically, there aren’t many bookish 95 IQ folks, are there?

    It's not uncommon among women with 95 IQs to read tons of romance novels.

    I was going to say, take a peek in one of the Little Free Libraries (LFL) (a movement that started in 2012; 75,000 in existence nationwide as of Aug. 2018).

    They operate on the age-old honor system of “take a book, leave a book.”

    Many are just crammed full of romance novels. This suggests to me that these romance novels possess a high ‘velocity’ (as an economist might put it).

  153. @I, Libertine
    I was wondering what the hell this was satirizing. I don't have time to figure out why it's Taleb (someone of whom I've barely heard).

    Would you please briefly elaborate?

    See comment-293 in another recent thread (“Silver vs. Taleb: Grudge Match”) for a kind of summary.

    Here is my summary, though I can’t claim to have followed it all:

    Author Nicholas Taleb slammed IQ testing and denounced it as “a pseudoscientific swindle.” His reasoning is that IQ is not a perfect predictor of “real-world success.”

    A lot of people criticized him on this, including Steve Sailer. Dr. James Thompson has published a critical reaction. The OP here is a satirical adaptation of Taleb’s criticism of IQ testing.

    • Replies: @I, Libertine
    Thanks!

    Of course, my comments stay in moderation for so long that by the time you had read it, Taleb's views on IQ had already spread all over the place. But thanks again anyway!
  154. @Art Deco
    Sasse wasn't elected to Congress until 8 years after Hastert retired, was never a congressional aide, and never had anything to do with law enforcement in any venue. All the complaints against him concern the period prior to 1982, when Sasse was a kid living in Nebraska.

    So all that stuff I read in the past about Sasse and Hastert was just BS?

    Thanks. No element of truth at all?

  155. @Wilkey
    The best joke I've heard about Mitt Romney is that he'll always stand by your side when he needs you.

    he’ll always stand by your side when he needs you

    Between Flake and Romney, Mormons not looking good in U.S. political spotlight.

    Are there any more prominent Mormon politicians in the late 2010s?

    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist

    Between Flake and Romney, Mormons not looking good in U.S. political spotlight.

     

    And don't forget Harry Reid.
    , @gregor
    Hatch wasn’t too bad. The Trump era seemed to be bring out the best in him.

    https://youtu.be/j2OhYg3WnV4
  156. @anon
    Never heard of Ben Sasse before, nor seen him, nor do I know anything about him.

    But based on that picture alone, I got fifty bucks that says he's gay. Any takers?

    Anon[312],

    judge not on a single MSNBC-picked maverick-pic.

    Here is our man in his perhaps more natural setting:

  157. @Anonymous
    De Vany mentioned negative training with machines before his knee replacements. I believe after his knee replacements he became more wary about heavy barbell work.

    There are deadlift machines, although they're basically the same thing as barbell deadlifts.

    As far as I know, Taleb does deadlifts, squats, and presses. It looks like he would benefit from using machines instead. As far as bones, you can safely load more weight via techniques using machines, so I don't see why they wouldn't be stressed just the same or even more so. Though I don't know enough about bones to say for sure.

    https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/1005535320845225984

    Taleb seems to have a far more conventional approach to lifting than he asserted in Antifragility. But at least he is honest.

    No matter what they tell you.

    Indeed.

    • Replies: @Anonym
    Yes. The knee pain is not really felt until a lot of the cartilege is worn through.

    I think there is probably some advantage in life to learn how to excite all muscle fibers in your youth, but to do heavy weights your whole life? I am a bit sceptical.

    https://www.menshealth.com/trending-news/a19056896/ronnie-coleman-is-still-hitting-the-gym-despite-several-surgeries/
  158. @Hail

    he’ll always stand by your side when he needs you
     
    Between Flake and Romney, Mormons not looking good in U.S. political spotlight.

    Are there any more prominent Mormon politicians in the late 2010s?

    Between Flake and Romney, Mormons not looking good in U.S. political spotlight.

    And don’t forget Harry Reid.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    And ISIS terrorist Evan McMullin, whom God punish.
    I wonder if they're going through something like what the Catholics are going through, as far as an entrenched older decadent elite being rejected by a more conservative younger generation.
    , @stillCARealist
    Harry Reid.

    Who is dying from pancreatic cancer.
  159. Ben Sasse looks about as straight as Lenny Bernstein in those family photos.

  160. @The Last Real Calvinist

    Between Flake and Romney, Mormons not looking good in U.S. political spotlight.

     

    And don't forget Harry Reid.

    And ISIS terrorist Evan McMullin, whom God punish.
    I wonder if they’re going through something like what the Catholics are going through, as far as an entrenched older decadent elite being rejected by a more conservative younger generation.

  161. @Dtbb
    Why the alternating grip in deadlifting? Do you switch hands while training?

    Yes.

  162. @Dave Pinsen
    As far as I know, it’s really not possible to raise your IQ much, no matter what you do. If you get a medical degree, you will certainly know more, as you’re required to memorize a lot of things, but will your IQ be higher? Maybe James Thompson can weigh in.

    My understanding is that education can temporarily raise IQ a little, but I am very open to correction. My guess is that being immersed in a milieu where one is required to think about harder problems is going maintain that “temporary” boost.

  163. @S. Anonyia
    Doubt it. The MD will have less free time and will be sleep deprived during their critical 20s and early 30s. The nurse can pursue intellectual pursuits in their free time, if they are so inclined.

    Does your average MD solve problems that are that complicated anyway? A lot of it is memorization and procedure. You’re giving them too much credit. Most MDs are not specialists or surgeons after all.

    I am aware that MDs are not what many people think them to be. However, if they are doing their job (eg, keeping up in medical journals), they are at least engaging with statistics and probably biochemistry and perhaps physics. This can not be said for RNs, even the ones who actually read nursing journals, which is a pretty small percentage.

    Your point about sleep deprivation is true, but a lot of nurses are sleep-deprived too. Many are burning the candle at both ends with kids at home.

  164. @Hail

    he’ll always stand by your side when he needs you
     
    Between Flake and Romney, Mormons not looking good in U.S. political spotlight.

    Are there any more prominent Mormon politicians in the late 2010s?

    Hatch wasn’t too bad. The Trump era seemed to be bring out the best in him.

  165. I’ve been somewhat following this whole back-and-forth with interest. That said, it does seem that the OP here is more or less what the bodyweight camp really does say. Look at Convict Conditioning for instance. It might well be somewhat “fictional” for all I know, but I find the narrative and even moreso the intellectual content plausible… but of course it is better to strive for success in deadlifting than to be a total layabout. Life ends up being complex.

  166. Steve, I should have told you sooner, as you could have sent a ‘superchat’ and asked Taleb questions live, but he debated J.F. Gariepy tonight. It’s 2 hours:

  167. anon[166] • Disclaimer says:

    Very OT (commenting on an older post to avoid clutter):

    The NBA has been beset with the perception of a stark decline in refereeing quality over the last few years. The issues include both missed calls and hair-trigger issuance of techs and ejections. Fans, players, and announcers alike have noticed it.

    There has been a lot of ref turnover. The (whiter) old generation all reached retirement age at the same time. While refs generally get better with experience, could a misguided Diversity effort also be a contributor to the replacements’ lack of competence?

    A year ago Knicks player Courtney Lee lamented the loss of the old guard refs after he believed he was unjustly thrown from a game:

    “I don’t know what’s going on, man,” Lee said. “It’s different now. I really appreciate guys like (retired referees) Joey Crawford, Monty (McCutchen) and Dick (Bavetta). You really appreciate those guys when you got them.”

    Anyway, it’s possible a nadir might have been reached tonight.

    Kevin Durant was not called out of bounds. This was a tied game, in overtime, with 30 seconds left. Two refs should have had a view of the play– they are on the right and at the bottom of this screenshot.

    Here is an extended video of the play. Funnily enough, James Harden still managed to win the game for Houston with a contested three pointer.

  168. @roo_ster
    Deads, squats, military/overhead presses, power cleans, bench, bent over rows are all basic lifts that build power, strength, and size. The meat and potatoes of weight trainjng. No matter the current guru or trend.

    Everything else is gravy. Oh other lifts have their places, like c&j or snatch, but often times become time sinks or diversions. Body builders will have other uses for more esoteric lifts.

    I have not had time for anything othet tgan the basics for many years. Family, career, etc. If i can hammer it hard 3x week i am doing great anf can make gains. Heck 2x now that i am older and need more than 7 days to recover from a heavy leg day.

    Good luck. Weight trainkng can be done into old age. It fills me with satisfaction, boh the lifting and the tracking. And despite causing minor injury on occasion, has protected me from serious and catastrophic injury several time in my life.

    has protected me from serious and catastrophic injury several time in my life.

    Care to elaborate?

    Secondarily, does it really take seven days to recover from a training session? I thought the standard was 48-72 hours.

    • Replies: @I, Libertine
    The older you get, the longer it takes. Gone are the days when my muscle soreness would resolve in 48 to 72 hours.
  169. @Anonymous
    A difference indeed rests in when you can make improvement. But I’d argue that with requirements for nearly free full day education, and opportunities to push yourself for more, as well as identifying nutrients necessary for a healthy body and brain, such as folic acid, and pushing for pregnant women and kids to get them, western societies already strives quite heavily for everyone’s IQ to develop about as much as they reasonably can, alot more than society expends for you to develop your physical strength. That’s because intelligence is far more useful in modern society for most jobs and for an optimally functioning society. No, book learnin’ isn’t IQ, but a lack of mental stimulation as a kid stunts IQ. As does a lack of key micronutrients.

    but a lack of mental stimulation as a kid stunts IQ.

    Cite?

    • Replies: @Logan
    Here's one. Mental stimulation at age four most important factor in teenage IQ.

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/oct/14/childhood-stimulation-key-brain-development

    Of course, I strongly suspect maximal stimulation will just permit a child to reach his max genetic IQ potential. No force in the 'verse will allow a person to exceed his genetic potential in any area.
  170. @J.Ross
    Moving is a fantastic job for a young uncredentialled man, and would be as good as a couple of years in construction to enable someone to enter college without fully stupefying.

    How do these jobs relate to not stupefying in college?

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Phronesis.
  171. @Chrisnonymous
    Oh, really?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEYl9EbvdN8

    A great memory for me. I remember watching this film on TV with my father as a kid. Obviously, we were in the mood for some laughs, but it ended up being one of those times when I nearly peed my pants! Now, when I watch it, I might smile, but that’s about it. It was a special childhood moment…

  172. @racerealist88
    "Deadlifting is a pseudoscientific measure of strength"

    Nonsense.

    "People who really succeed in physical jobs in real life need to be able to deal with weights in all shapes, with handholds of varying types — or no handholds — and with surface textures and slipperinesses of various values."

    I have a buddy who does tree work. He said to me one day "Tree strength is different from weight strength. You can't lift X logs, it doesn't matter if you're 'weight strong.'" I challenged him to overgead press just 75 pounds---he couldn't do it.

    Find me someone who can deadlift 100 pounds and someone who can deadlift 315---I guarantee that the one who can deadlift 315 is more functionally able in a manual labor job, no doubt about it.

    "In competition the deadlifted weight is only raised to waist height and returned straight down. In real life streetwise physical workers may need to place weights on truck beds located above their waists."

    Yea, almost as if different types of Olympic lifts and functional exercises---along with the OHP---would help with that . . .

    Congratulations. This is the dumbest thing I've ever read on this website, and with all of the IQ BS floating around here, that's saying something.

    If you want an actual analogy read my article on athletic ability and IQ.

    https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2017/12/30/athletic-ability-and-iq/

    Don’t just “disagree”, explain how I’m wrong.

  173. @Hail
    See comment-293 in another recent thread ("Silver vs. Taleb: Grudge Match") for a kind of summary.

    Here is my summary, though I can't claim to have followed it all:

    Author Nicholas Taleb slammed IQ testing and denounced it as "a pseudoscientific swindle." His reasoning is that IQ is not a perfect predictor of "real-world success."

    A lot of people criticized him on this, including Steve Sailer. Dr. James Thompson has published a critical reaction. The OP here is a satirical adaptation of Taleb's criticism of IQ testing.

    Thanks!

    Of course, my comments stay in moderation for so long that by the time you had read it, Taleb’s views on IQ had already spread all over the place. But thanks again anyway!

  174. @Anonymous

    has protected me from serious and catastrophic injury several time in my life.
     
    Care to elaborate?

    Secondarily, does it really take seven days to recover from a training session? I thought the standard was 48-72 hours.

    The older you get, the longer it takes. Gone are the days when my muscle soreness would resolve in 48 to 72 hours.

  175. The older you get, the longer it takes. Gone are the days when my muscle soreness would resolve in 48 to 72 hours.

    But, of course, we’re commenting about a satirical article as if it were straightforward. Jonathan Swift wasn’t really advocating that we eat our young.

    • Replies: @I, Libertine
    Didn't realize i'd posted once before I finished . {blushing}
  176. @racerealist88
    "but don’t count on getting shredded without serious nutritional determination. AKA, starvation."

    What's your justification for this claim? Have you ever dieted down yourself - or even worked with people who are losing weight on a strength program?

    What’s your justification for this claim? Have you ever dieted down yourself – or even worked with people who are losing weight on a strength program?

    Yes. Both.

    The nutritional coach at my gym has a client who is doing a short term (six weeks?) test to see what he can look like. He’s got great muscles, but is going for that superhero look where every tiny muscle is visible. He’s starving and hating his workouts, but there’s no denying the results.

    https://www.muscleandfitness.com/workouts/abs-and-core-exercises/six-moves-shredded-six-pack

    This is pretty close to what he looks like.

    He’s already abandoning the strenuous diet and filling out a bit, but it was fun to watch.

  177. @The Last Real Calvinist

    Between Flake and Romney, Mormons not looking good in U.S. political spotlight.

     

    And don't forget Harry Reid.

    Harry Reid.

    Who is dying from pancreatic cancer.

    • Replies: @Hail
    In political terms, he is already no longer among us.

    United States Senator from Nevada
    In office: January 3, 1987 – January 3, 2017
     

    Senate Majority Leader
    In office: January 3, 2007 – January 3, 2015

    Deputy: Dick Durbin
    Preceded by: Bill Frist
    Succeeded by: Mitch McConnell
     
  178. @I, Libertine
    The older you get, the longer it takes. Gone are the days when my muscle soreness would resolve in 48 to 72 hours.

    But, of course, we're commenting about a satirical article as if it were straightforward. Jonathan Swift wasn't really advocating that we eat our young.

    Didn’t realize i’d posted once before I finished . {blushing}

  179. @Colin Wright
    Tangentially related: I used to have a moving business. Another mover once commented that he'd tried using weight lifters as mover's helpers; they were a disappointment.

    Speaking for myself, I can recall a few episodes demanding sheer, raw power; for example, there's the tale of the spinnet piano and the spiral staircase.

    However, and in general, care, stamina, and thinking through just how we were going to move the monster du jour were far more important than muscle mass.

    Tangentially related: I used to have a moving business. Another mover once commented that he’d tried using weight lifters as mover’s helpers; they were a disappointment.

    The kettlebell enthusiasts talk a lot about “functional strength.” There’s probably something to that.

  180. @racerealist88
    "Deadlifting is a pseudoscientific measure of strength"

    Nonsense.

    "People who really succeed in physical jobs in real life need to be able to deal with weights in all shapes, with handholds of varying types — or no handholds — and with surface textures and slipperinesses of various values."

    I have a buddy who does tree work. He said to me one day "Tree strength is different from weight strength. You can't lift X logs, it doesn't matter if you're 'weight strong.'" I challenged him to overgead press just 75 pounds---he couldn't do it.

    Find me someone who can deadlift 100 pounds and someone who can deadlift 315---I guarantee that the one who can deadlift 315 is more functionally able in a manual labor job, no doubt about it.

    "In competition the deadlifted weight is only raised to waist height and returned straight down. In real life streetwise physical workers may need to place weights on truck beds located above their waists."

    Yea, almost as if different types of Olympic lifts and functional exercises---along with the OHP---would help with that . . .

    Congratulations. This is the dumbest thing I've ever read on this website, and with all of the IQ BS floating around here, that's saying something.

    If you want an actual analogy read my article on athletic ability and IQ.

    https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2017/12/30/athletic-ability-and-iq/

    • Disagree: John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    Bug found in ‘Disagree button’ functionality:

    The commenter “John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan” is one person but uses a comma in his handle. The Disagree button misreads this as two people.

  181. @stillCARealist
    Harry Reid.

    Who is dying from pancreatic cancer.

    In political terms, he is already no longer among us.

    United States Senator from Nevada
    In office: January 3, 1987 – January 3, 2017

    Senate Majority Leader
    In office: January 3, 2007 – January 3, 2015

    Deputy: Dick Durbin
    Preceded by: Bill Frist
    Succeeded by: Mitch McConnell

  182. @racerealist88
    "Deadlifting is a pseudoscientific measure of strength"

    Nonsense.

    "People who really succeed in physical jobs in real life need to be able to deal with weights in all shapes, with handholds of varying types — or no handholds — and with surface textures and slipperinesses of various values."

    I have a buddy who does tree work. He said to me one day "Tree strength is different from weight strength. You can't lift X logs, it doesn't matter if you're 'weight strong.'" I challenged him to overgead press just 75 pounds---he couldn't do it.

    Find me someone who can deadlift 100 pounds and someone who can deadlift 315---I guarantee that the one who can deadlift 315 is more functionally able in a manual labor job, no doubt about it.

    "In competition the deadlifted weight is only raised to waist height and returned straight down. In real life streetwise physical workers may need to place weights on truck beds located above their waists."

    Yea, almost as if different types of Olympic lifts and functional exercises---along with the OHP---would help with that . . .

    Congratulations. This is the dumbest thing I've ever read on this website, and with all of the IQ BS floating around here, that's saying something.

    If you want an actual analogy read my article on athletic ability and IQ.

    https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2017/12/30/athletic-ability-and-iq/

    It’s satire, dude. Jesus…

  183. @Eric Novak
    Those weight-training movers were a disappointment because they're tired and sleepy from training. Squatting totals of 12,000 lbs for a session means lots of napping over the following 48-72 hrs as well as hobbling around like a car-wreck victim.

    Gets worse as one ages too. At 67, I still haven’t sorted out reps or weights. The reps demands sleep; the higher weight soreness.

  184. Try:
    “Mathematics Is Just a Pseudo-Scientific Swindle”

    if you want to see

    REALLY A LOT OF PEOPLE

    pile on-

    • Replies: @Ralf
    Stefan Molyneux's response to Taleb's latest piece: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCI0luCwM_Q
  185. @racerealist88
    "The blank slate is wrong however"

    Name and quote "blank slaters" "blank slating".

    Name and quote “blank slaters” “blank slating”.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mismeasure_of_Man

    You can also dig up the references from Pinker’s eponymous book.

    Maybe also talk to some boomers or SJWs.

  186. @Sean
    Taleb seems to have a far more conventional approach to lifting than he asserted in Antifragility. But at least he is honest.

    No matter what they tell you.
     
    Indeed.

    Yes. The knee pain is not really felt until a lot of the cartilege is worn through.

    I think there is probably some advantage in life to learn how to excite all muscle fibers in your youth, but to do heavy weights your whole life? I am a bit sceptical.

    https://www.menshealth.com/trending-news/a19056896/ronnie-coleman-is-still-hitting-the-gym-despite-several-surgeries/

  187. @Jim Given
    Try:
    "Mathematics Is Just a Pseudo-Scientific Swindle"

    if you want to see

    REALLY A LOT OF PEOPLE

    pile on-

    Stefan Molyneux’s response to Taleb’s latest piece:

    • Replies: @Hail

    Stefan Molyneux’s response to Taleb
     
    Taleb Twitterblocked Molyneux, nd then sent off some tweets insulting Molyneux and bragging about the power of his Tweet-blocking at antagonizing racists.

    Not a good look for Mr. Taleb.


    Nassim Nicholas Taleb [Verified account] @nntaleb

    The extra benefit of blocking ignorant people so they get angry and promote your ideas far and wide.

    I blocked Stephan Molyneux (simply because I don't like him & his racial theories) so he just did an entire video on my IQ paper to his 800k followers.
     


    Nassim Nicholas Taleb [Verified account] @nntaleb

    So I can imagine Molyneux hit with episodic bouts of anger (gets worse at night): "he blocked me, he blocked me", let me have my revenge... on Youtube.
     

    https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/1081309219377369088

    https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/1081336627664961536

    He also bragged about blocking Dr. Geoffrey Miller, who retweeted to his 63k followers Dr. Thompson's response article to Taleb (here).

  188. @Ralf
    Stefan Molyneux's response to Taleb's latest piece: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCI0luCwM_Q

    Stefan Molyneux’s response to Taleb

    Taleb Twitterblocked Molyneux, nd then sent off some tweets insulting Molyneux and bragging about the power of his Tweet-blocking at antagonizing racists.

    Not a good look for Mr. Taleb.

    Nassim Nicholas Taleb [Verified account] @nntaleb

    The extra benefit of blocking ignorant people so they get angry and promote your ideas far and wide.

    I blocked Stephan Molyneux (simply because I don’t like him & his racial theories) so he just did an entire video on my IQ paper to his 800k followers.

    Nassim Nicholas Taleb [Verified account] @nntaleb

    So I can imagine Molyneux hit with episodic bouts of anger (gets worse at night): “he blocked me, he blocked me”, let me have my revenge… on Youtube.

    He also bragged about blocking Dr. Geoffrey Miller, who retweeted to his 63k followers Dr. Thompson’s response article to Taleb (here).

    • Replies: @Anon
    What a tool. Glad I never wasted any time reading his books.
  189. @Hail

    Stefan Molyneux’s response to Taleb
     
    Taleb Twitterblocked Molyneux, nd then sent off some tweets insulting Molyneux and bragging about the power of his Tweet-blocking at antagonizing racists.

    Not a good look for Mr. Taleb.


    Nassim Nicholas Taleb [Verified account] @nntaleb

    The extra benefit of blocking ignorant people so they get angry and promote your ideas far and wide.

    I blocked Stephan Molyneux (simply because I don't like him & his racial theories) so he just did an entire video on my IQ paper to his 800k followers.
     


    Nassim Nicholas Taleb [Verified account] @nntaleb

    So I can imagine Molyneux hit with episodic bouts of anger (gets worse at night): "he blocked me, he blocked me", let me have my revenge... on Youtube.
     

    https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/1081309219377369088

    https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/1081336627664961536

    He also bragged about blocking Dr. Geoffrey Miller, who retweeted to his 63k followers Dr. Thompson's response article to Taleb (here).

    What a tool. Glad I never wasted any time reading his books.

  190. @Anonymous
    How do these jobs relate to not stupefying in college?

    Phronesis.

  191. @Anonymous

    but a lack of mental stimulation as a kid stunts IQ.
     
    Cite?

    Here’s one. Mental stimulation at age four most important factor in teenage IQ.

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/oct/14/childhood-stimulation-key-brain-development

    Of course, I strongly suspect maximal stimulation will just permit a child to reach his max genetic IQ potential. No force in the ‘verse will allow a person to exceed his genetic potential in any area.

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