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iSteve commenter Stolen Valor Detective points to this speech by Thomas Babington Macaulay in 1845:

I say then, Sir, that I fully admit the paramount authority of moral obligations. But it is important that we should accurately understand the nature and extent of those obligations. We are clearly bound to wrong no man. Nay, more, we are bound to regard all men with benevolence. But to every individual, and to every society, Providence has assigned a sphere within which benevolence ought to be peculiarly active; and if an individual or a society neglects what lies within that sphere in order to attend to what lies without, the result is likely to be harm and not good.

It is thus in private life. We should not be justified in injuring a stranger in order to benefit ourselves or those who are dearest to us. Every stranger is entitled, by the laws of humanity, to claim from us certain reasonable good offices. But it is not true that we are bound to exert ourselves to serve a mere stranger as we are bound to exert ourselves to serve our own relations. A man would not be justified in subjecting his wife and children to disagreeable privations, in order to save even from utter ruin some foreigner whom he never saw. And if a man were so absurd and perverse as to starve his own family in order to relieve people with whom he had no acquaintance, there can be little doubt that his crazy charity would produce much more misery than happiness.

It is the same with nations. No statesmen ought to injure other countries in order to benefit his own country. No statesman ought to lose any fair opportunity of rendering to foreign nations such good offices as he can render without a breach of the duty which he owes to the society of which he is a member. But, after all, our country is our country, and has the first claim on our attention. There is nothing, I conceive, of narrow-mindedness in this patriotism. I do not say that we ought to prefer the happiness of one particular society to the happiness of mankind; but I say that, by exerting ourselves to promote the happiness of the society with which we are most nearly connected, and with which we are best acquainted, we shall do more to promote the happiness of mankind than by busying ourselves about matters which we do not fully understand, and cannot efficiently control.

There are great evils connected with the factory system in this country. Some of those evils might, I am inclined to think, be removed or mitigated by legislation. On that point many of my friends differ from me; but we all agree in thinking that it is the duty of a British Legislator to consider the subject attentively, and with a serious sense of responsibility. There are also great social evils in Russia. The peasants of that empire are in a state of servitude. The sovereign of Russia is bound by the most solemn obligations to consider whether he can do anything to improve the condition of that large portion of his subjects. If we watch over our factory children, and he watches over his peasants, much good may be done. But would any good be done if the Emperor of Russia and the British Parliament were to interchange functions; if he were to take under his patronage the weavers of Lancashire, if we were to take under our patronage the peasants of the Volga; if he were to say, “You shall send no cotton to Russia till you pass a ten Hours’ Bill;” if we were to say, “You shall send no hemp or tallow to England till you emancipate your serfs?”

SVD observes:

I coincidentally read a bit of this passage favorably quoted by George F. Kennan in his book Around the Cragged Hill recently. Three know-nothing ignoramuses who espouse the philosophy of citizenism: Thomas Babington Macaulay, George F. Kennan, and Steve Sailer.

 
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  1. No statesmen ought to injure other countries in order to benefit his own country.

    So we should have never conquered North America? If you believe that, you should leave. Actually, I can’t think of a country that wasn’t built by conquest.

    • Troll: El Dato, TWS
    • Replies: @Svevlad
    @RichardTaylor

    Seeing what sorts of idiocy and bullshit that led us to, the whole Age of Exploration should have been slowed down and scrapped. Perhaps if our nobility had gotten their shit together and destroyed the Ottomans, preventing ludicrous taxes on the Bosporus from forcing Europeans to seek new routes, none of the problems we have today would happen

    Replies: @Anonymous

    , @Henry's Cat
    @RichardTaylor

    Civilising the wogs doesn't count.

    , @Citizen of a Silly Country
    @RichardTaylor

    You have to love his chutzpah. A leading figure of one of the world's great empires very near its peak talking about the virtues of leaving other nations and people alone.

    Also, I wonder how excited Macaulay would be about showing the same loyalty to an African who has British citizenship as he would to a Saxon or Celt. Probably not a lot.

    Replies: @David Davenport

    , @AndrewR
    @RichardTaylor

    Iceland... Pre-Anglo New Zealand... Pre-negro Madagascar

    While conquest is occasionally necessary, you are being very uncharitable here.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Reg Cæsar

    , @Peter Akuleyev
    @RichardTaylor

    There were no "countries" in North America when the British colonists arrived, just heathen savages, therefore no harm done. Macaulay was also in favor of defensive wars to protect his own country from being harmed by others. It is a funny thing how many wars can be construed as "defensive" if you put your mind to it.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Matt Buckalew, @Colin Wright, @Bardon Kaldian

    , @JMcG
    @RichardTaylor

    North America wasn’t a country, nor a polity. It was a savage wilderness.

    Replies: @RichardTaylor

    , @Jonathan Mason
    @RichardTaylor

    Germany, Italy, Greece, Scotland, Australia, Sweden, Iceland, Andorra, the Vatican, France?

    Replies: @J.Ross

    , @Jack Armstrong
    @RichardTaylor

    Conquest? North of the Rio Grande, it was hardly conquest. Pretty tame by historical standards, I mean the Palestinians don’t get to sell tax free cigarettes and run casinos do they?

    , @Prester John
    @RichardTaylor

    The Indi...er, I mean Native Americans (or, more accurately, "Native Americans Who Actually Came From Northeast Asia") "conquered" North America first. Or is it "Indigenous People?" Or, as they call 'em in the Great White North "First Nations?" I give up.

    Replies: @Alfa158, @joe862

    , @Colin Wright
    @RichardTaylor

    'So we should have never conquered North America? If you believe that, you should leave. Actually, I can’t think of a country that wasn’t built by conquest.'

    Don't be tedious.

    Replies: @RichardTaylor

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @RichardTaylor


    So we should have never conquered North America? If you believe that, you should leave.
     
    The problem with conquest is what to do with the natives. What you don't do is replace them with aliens from a third continent, as in Hispaniola.

    Otherwise, you end up with, well, Hispaniola.
    , @Deep Thought
    @RichardTaylor


    Actually, I can’t think of a country that wasn’t built by conquest.
     
    True! But then if you have 5-- instead of the normal 2-- eyes, your extra 3 eyes will see other people's conquests, or merely assimilations, as blasphemy-- all the while claiming that your own conquests, and racial genocides, are virtues done on behalf of your white Dog (oops! I meant "white God").
  2. espouse the philosophy of citizenism

    Citizenism is ideal to start with if every citizen in a country agrees on the rules about who is and who should be a citizen, but failing that, citizenism may be ‘leapfrogged’ if the demographic saucepan water gets too hot. Then overt domestic Who/Whom is the name of the game, if it wasn’t already.

    • Replies: @RichardTaylor
    @Jenner Ickham Errican

    It's always Whites who are told to support non-Whites. We don't see HBD pundits lecturing Blacks or Asians to be more loyal to White people. They wouldn't dream of it.

    What Asian or Black country gets this hectoring? But every White citizen is scolded about the extra burden he and his grandchildren must carry for the sake of non-Whites.

    , @Corvinus
    @Jenner Ickham Errican

    “ Citizenism is ideal to start with if every citizen in a country agrees on the rules about who is and who should be a citizen.”

    With the flexibility to change those rules as the times change, aka our posterity. It’s who we are.

    Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican

  3. @Jenner Ickham Errican

    espouse the philosophy of citizenism
     
    Citizenism is ideal to start with if every citizen in a country agrees on the rules about who is and who should be a citizen, but failing that, citizenism may be ‘leapfrogged’ if the demographic saucepan water gets too hot. Then overt domestic Who/Whom is the name of the game, if it wasn’t already.

    Replies: @RichardTaylor, @Corvinus

    It’s always Whites who are told to support non-Whites. We don’t see HBD pundits lecturing Blacks or Asians to be more loyal to White people. They wouldn’t dream of it.

    What Asian or Black country gets this hectoring? But every White citizen is scolded about the extra burden he and his grandchildren must carry for the sake of non-Whites.

    • Agree: Muggles, Joseph Doaks
  4. Passports mean little now, our race is our nation.

    • Agree: bomag
  5. @RichardTaylor

    No statesmen ought to injure other countries in order to benefit his own country.
     
    So we should have never conquered North America? If you believe that, you should leave. Actually, I can't think of a country that wasn't built by conquest.

    Replies: @Svevlad, @Henry's Cat, @Citizen of a Silly Country, @AndrewR, @Peter Akuleyev, @JMcG, @Jonathan Mason, @Jack Armstrong, @Prester John, @Colin Wright, @Reg Cæsar, @Deep Thought

    Seeing what sorts of idiocy and bullshit that led us to, the whole Age of Exploration should have been slowed down and scrapped. Perhaps if our nobility had gotten their shit together and destroyed the Ottomans, preventing ludicrous taxes on the Bosporus from forcing Europeans to seek new routes, none of the problems we have today would happen

    • Agree: PhysicistDave
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Svevlad

    Would’ve been better for white countries to stop fighting each other. Loyalty to each other should’ve prevailed. However, I wouldn’t blame the spirit of exploration and expansion. It’s what will drive us to the stars.

  6. “I say then, Sir, that I fully admit the paramount authority of moral obligations.”

    Now get your Biden mandates vaccinations, citizen! Or lose access to employment, goods, services, your money and your children!

  7. @RichardTaylor

    No statesmen ought to injure other countries in order to benefit his own country.
     
    So we should have never conquered North America? If you believe that, you should leave. Actually, I can't think of a country that wasn't built by conquest.

    Replies: @Svevlad, @Henry's Cat, @Citizen of a Silly Country, @AndrewR, @Peter Akuleyev, @JMcG, @Jonathan Mason, @Jack Armstrong, @Prester John, @Colin Wright, @Reg Cæsar, @Deep Thought

    Civilising the wogs doesn’t count.

  8. So “I against my brother, my brothers and I against my cousins, my cousins and I against the world” is good again?

    • Replies: @Citizen of a Silly Country
    @Anonymous

    Damn straight.

    Back to future, bitches.

    Ironically, pretending that race doesn't matter only exists in societies where the founders eradicated other races. But Steve finds that reality distasteful, so he avoids talking about it. It's much nicer to pretend that Citizenism works. Isn't it pretty to think so.

  9. The problem with concentric circles of loyalty is that they require actually knowing and understanding people and doing practical things to help them. They are in your life. This might sound like a good thing, but it is much easier to declare how much you’re helping a bunch of people you don’t know and don’t understand and really have nothing to do with. This makes, for those who want to appear like a good person, the latter choice the most sensible.

    It is the adult dinner party and social virtue signaling equivalent of the virgin teenage boy claiming to have slept with some girl while on holiday.

    Imagine the teenage boy telling his friends, then his friends questioning him, but him being able to dismiss their questions as “racist”, “offensive” and a sign of low moral character!

    Every virgin teenage boy would do it, and every time that fantasy girl would be a solid 10.

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
    @Triteleia Laxa

    It's kinda nice to have illusions - and even kinda fulfilling to be Living in a Teenage Fantasy (Jorja Smith).

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa

    , @Almost Missouri
    @Triteleia Laxa

    That's a good point, that it is easier to virtue signal by claiming to have helped a remote and abstract person than by actually helping a real life flesh and blood person close at hand. But then the real question is why is the former is taken at all seriously as a virtue signal? After all, until recently, if your family or village were in trouble and you declined to pitch in, no one would accept as an excuse the equivalent of "I gave at the office". But nowadays waving around your tax deductible donation receipt to the SPLC can buy you a lot of social credit. How did that happen?

    In 1853 Charles Dickens penned the witheringly caustic caricature of Mrs. Jellyby's "telescopic philanthropy" to general public approbation. Today, I doubt Mrs. Jellby's enormous hypocrisy even registers with many Bleak House readers. (Indeed, does anyone still read Dickens?) Something changed in the last century or so. Absurd charlatans and mountebanks who would formerly have been laughable objects of scorn and pity are now treated as Serious People with Important Ideas.

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa, @Intelligent Dasein

    , @El Dato
    @Triteleia Laxa


    Imagine the teenage boy telling his friends, then his friends questioning him, but him being able to dismiss their questions as “racist”, “offensive” and a sign of low moral character!

    Every virgin teenage boy would do it, and every time that fantasy girl would be a solid 10.
     
    I have been a teenage boy and I have never witnessed such a scene. It's a scene from a Hollywood outlet, just add bad music.

    Maybe times have changed a lot.

    Replies: @additionalMike

    , @Anonymous
    @Triteleia Laxa

    Agreed, the big change in society over last 50 years isn’t patriotism or “racism” or sexual morality. It’s that techno-economics made much, much cheaper *seeming* to X to care about X and/or Y and Z, whereas non-virtual caring about something in reality hasn’t benefited from the same productivity effects.

    Your call is valuable to us, please stay on the line and a representative will be with you shortly. While you’re waiting, take the following 5 to 500 question survey

    , @JohnnyWalker123
    @Triteleia Laxa


    Imagine the teenage boy telling his friends, then his friends questioning him, but him being able to dismiss their questions as “racist”, “offensive” and a sign of low moral character!

    Every virgin teenage boy would do it, and every time that fantasy girl would be a solid 10.
     

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQGwrK_yDEg

    Watch the above 30 second clip. It's funny. Nothing can ever beat the Simpsons during the 90s.


    Moe : Good, 'cause I got a hot date tonight.

    [buzz]

    Moe : A date.

    [buzz]

    Moe : Dinner with friends.

    [buzz]

    Moe : Dinner alone.

    [buzz]

    Moe : Watching TV alone.

    [buzz]

    Moe : All right! I'm going to sit at home and ogle the ladies in the Victoria's Secret catalog.

    [buzz]

    Moe : Sears catalog.

    [ding]

    Moe : Now would you unhook this already, please? I don't deserve this kind of shabby treatment.

    [buzz]
     

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa

    , @JohnnyWalker123
    @Triteleia Laxa


    virgin teenage boy claiming to have slept with some girl while on holiday.

    Imagine the teenage boy telling his friends, then his friends questioning him, but him being able to dismiss their questions as “racist”, “offensive” and a sign of low moral character!

    Every virgin teenage boy would do it, and every time that fantasy girl would be a solid 10
     
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FC3y9llDXuM

    https://genius.com/Wheatus-teenage-dirtbag-lyrics

    [Chorus]
    'Cause I'm just a teenage dirtbag, baby
    Yeah, I'm just a teenage dirtbag, baby
    Listen to Iron Maiden, baby, with me, ooh
     

    [Bridge]
    Oh, yeah, dirtbag
    No, she doesn't know what she's missin'
    Oh, yeah, dirtbag
    No, she doesn't know what she's missin'
     
  10. All I know is we just imported thousands of badly needed Afghani and South American doctors and scientists.

    Checkmate, racists!

    • Agree: Jack Armstrong
  11. @Triteleia Laxa
    The problem with concentric circles of loyalty is that they require actually knowing and understanding people and doing practical things to help them. They are in your life. This might sound like a good thing, but it is much easier to declare how much you're helping a bunch of people you don't know and don't understand and really have nothing to do with. This makes, for those who want to appear like a good person, the latter choice the most sensible.

    It is the adult dinner party and social virtue signaling equivalent of the virgin teenage boy claiming to have slept with some girl while on holiday.

    Imagine the teenage boy telling his friends, then his friends questioning him, but him being able to dismiss their questions as "racist", "offensive" and a sign of low moral character!

    Every virgin teenage boy would do it, and every time that fantasy girl would be a solid 10.

    Replies: @Dieter Kief, @Almost Missouri, @El Dato, @Anonymous, @JohnnyWalker123, @JohnnyWalker123

    It’s kinda nice to have illusions – and even kinda fulfilling to be Living in a Teenage Fantasy (Jorja Smith).

    • Replies: @Triteleia Laxa
    @Dieter Kief

    Thanks, that's a moving song.

    Replies: @Dieter Kief

  12. Great text by Thomas Babington Macauly about the amount of context rationality and/or enlightenment’s universalism is dependent on to work properly. Life and ideals should not be separated. They have to complement one another to work properly (Schiller). That’s what teenagers would have to learn – but are not asked to learn any longer in many cases, because postmodernism/wokeism is the negation of the fight (the pain too) every rite de passage has to include in order to work properly.

    Many thanks not least to Stolen Valor Detective.

    • Agree: Forbes
    • Thanks: AnotherDad
  13. “Our having been faithful to the moral obligation of liberty to remove the rudder from this ship, and to read the charts according to the peculiarity of our manners and feelings,—fulfilling withal our duty to reason in not persisting in a hopeless struggle against the sea,—we ought more strongly than ever to feel that noble sentiment in our soul that would direct us to arrive safely in port.”

    Thomas Babington Macaulay

  14. @Dieter Kief
    @Triteleia Laxa

    It's kinda nice to have illusions - and even kinda fulfilling to be Living in a Teenage Fantasy (Jorja Smith).

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa

    Thanks, that’s a moving song.

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
    @Triteleia Laxa

    Tanks back. Jorja Smith's - character - in her song - is The eternal teenager: Neither fish nor flesh - caught in the middle between poetic universalism (Friedrich Schlegel (romantische Universalpoesie) and real-world delusions. - She hit this romantic sweet spot here quite effortlessly, perfectly & playfully (=charmingly).



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTnWe_sMznM

    Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican

  15. @Triteleia Laxa
    The problem with concentric circles of loyalty is that they require actually knowing and understanding people and doing practical things to help them. They are in your life. This might sound like a good thing, but it is much easier to declare how much you're helping a bunch of people you don't know and don't understand and really have nothing to do with. This makes, for those who want to appear like a good person, the latter choice the most sensible.

    It is the adult dinner party and social virtue signaling equivalent of the virgin teenage boy claiming to have slept with some girl while on holiday.

    Imagine the teenage boy telling his friends, then his friends questioning him, but him being able to dismiss their questions as "racist", "offensive" and a sign of low moral character!

    Every virgin teenage boy would do it, and every time that fantasy girl would be a solid 10.

    Replies: @Dieter Kief, @Almost Missouri, @El Dato, @Anonymous, @JohnnyWalker123, @JohnnyWalker123

    That’s a good point, that it is easier to virtue signal by claiming to have helped a remote and abstract person than by actually helping a real life flesh and blood person close at hand. But then the real question is why is the former is taken at all seriously as a virtue signal? After all, until recently, if your family or village were in trouble and you declined to pitch in, no one would accept as an excuse the equivalent of “I gave at the office”. But nowadays waving around your tax deductible donation receipt to the SPLC can buy you a lot of social credit. How did that happen?

    In 1853 Charles Dickens penned the witheringly caustic caricature of Mrs. Jellyby’s “telescopic philanthropy” to general public approbation. Today, I doubt Mrs. Jellby’s enormous hypocrisy even registers with many Bleak House readers. (Indeed, does anyone still read Dickens?) Something changed in the last century or so. Absurd charlatans and mountebanks who would formerly have been laughable objects of scorn and pity are now treated as Serious People with Important Ideas.

    • Replies: @Triteleia Laxa
    @Almost Missouri


    That’s a good point, that it is easier to virtue signal by claiming to have helped a remote and abstract person than by actually helping a real life flesh and blood person close at hand. But then the real question is why is the former is taken at all seriously as a virtue signal?
     
    Our societies have much more material comfort than in Dickens' time, so the sacrifice is less, which means the cost/benefit ratio to the virtue signaling is reversed; therefore almost everyone is now incentivised to be in on the mutually flattering fantasy.

    Notice how it was a rich women with no material worries whom Dickens satirised.

    If a society struggles to feed itself, it will not be rational for it to tolerate too much expensive virtue signaling, as the only benefit is ego validation for the signalers and the cost may be starvation.

    But if a society has dealt with those basic needs, it will experience things like ego validation as basic needs and people will meet those as they most easily can.

    Delusional displays of virtue are, from the perspective of less advanced societies, ridiculous luxuries, but now they are luxuries which we can afford and which are even becoming seen as essentials.

    This may be a difficult to digest symptom for you but it is also a symptom of a great thing. Like getting richer so you have a higher individual marginal tax rate.

    People want to feel virtuous and they want to socialise the cost of that acquisition. Society can bear it, so it does. Just like society now bears the cost of people who don't want to be employed.

    There are many ways through this, but none back. Dreaming of social disaster so that we have social penury and can no longer afford this stuff is plain stupid. Waiting for the apocalypse is an awful political programme, just as waiting for death is an awful way to live life. Both sets of people will find that nothing they want comes to be.

    You can either help people past their need for ego validation, but you can't do that until you have seen through your own illusions, or you can offer them something easier and at least equally as fulfilling. Anything else is pointless, because you need their consent, there's nobody who is going to force them. The enforcers are just as incentivised as everyone else.

    Replies: @Jack Armstrong, @Gabe Ruth

    , @Intelligent Dasein
    @Almost Missouri


    But then the real question is why is the former is taken at all seriously as a virtue signal?
     
    It isn't. You are completely misunderstanding the whole thing.

    Do you really think anybody cares about the so-called virtue of the virtue signalers? Do you really think anybody is impressed? No, nobody cares. Nobody is genuinely edified by this garbage. Virtue signaling is entirely about power.

    The virtue signaler operates by styling his actions as propositions which it is forbidden to deny. He does this precisely so that you aren't allowed to criticize him when he kills, steals, and destroys. It's Phariseeism; it's the oldest trick in the book.

    "Don't you care about the wellbeing of others? Then shut up and take your vaccine, loser."

    People, being sinners, are attracted to this kind of power. They don't need any other reason to virtue signal. There can scarcely be any other reason to virtue signal, because nobody who was trying to be productive or helpful would ever act this way. The virtue signaler uses guilt, social sanction, and threats of violence to brutalize you into subjugation. Whenever you encounter one of these people and they successfully coerce you into compliance, you always walk away feeling dirty and they always walk away feeling powerful. They win and you lose. You may have to put up with this as a fact of life, but nobody really believes such things are a virtue. They don't even believe it themselves.

    There is no need to make it more complicated than that.
  16. It’s the Circle of Trust:

    • Replies: @RichardTaylor
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Speaking of concentric circles, the lowest level of Hell is reserved for traitors. Those who failed to have proper loyalty to their own people. Imagine not having a preference for your own racial family!

    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/3b/40/5e/3b405e19b583a0207a4749020fa5834f.jpg

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Anonymous, @Chrisnonymous

  17. Citizenism has a fatal flaw. Namely, nation states no longer exist as such. In this globalized world, sovereign states are a dying species. Global organizations such as the UN, foundations like the CFR, big corporations and big banks wield more power than individual states.
    Thus, the very concept of citizenship is moot.

    • Replies: @njguy73
    @BB753

    To paraphrase the Ned Beatty character in Network, there are no nations, there are no people, there is only Twitter, Facebook, Google, Amazon, and Walmart. Those are the nations.

  18. The Guardian commentariat are in full isolationist mode when it comes to international aid to the Afghans. Not because “our country is our country, and has the first claim on our attention“, which they would doubtless consider racist, but because the Afghan government don’t subscribe to bien-pensant notions of rights. Not only that, but they literally “blacken the face” of thieves.

    “The Taliban takeover must not mean the end of international aid to Afghanistan – A humanitarian crisis looms unless Americans and Europeans continue to fund the projects keeping Afghans from oblivion”

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/09/taliban-afghanistan-humanitarian-crisis-aid-americans-europe

    Top-rated comments

    Nah
    The Taliban kicked the West out of Afghanistan. Time to let them go there own way now.

    The author lives in a fantasy land. Any aide money that enters Afghanistan will be taken by the Taliban. They will revert to a medieval society where women are not seen as human

    Playing devils advocate, why should ”the west” send any form of aid to a country ruled by a group who’s sole belief and purpose seems to be to put an end to ”western values and life”, as well as Israel – which they have already openly said they do not recognise

    The Guardian is full of iStevey goodness this morning

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/sep/10/australian-drug-regulator-bans-ivermectin-as-covid-treatment-after-sharp-rise-in-prescriptions

    “Australia’s drug regulator has banned medical practitioners from prescribing the anti-parasitic drug ivermectin for “off-label” uses, such as for treating Covid-19. The move comes after prescriptions for the drug increased between three and four times in Australia in recent months.”

  19. @Almost Missouri
    @Triteleia Laxa

    That's a good point, that it is easier to virtue signal by claiming to have helped a remote and abstract person than by actually helping a real life flesh and blood person close at hand. But then the real question is why is the former is taken at all seriously as a virtue signal? After all, until recently, if your family or village were in trouble and you declined to pitch in, no one would accept as an excuse the equivalent of "I gave at the office". But nowadays waving around your tax deductible donation receipt to the SPLC can buy you a lot of social credit. How did that happen?

    In 1853 Charles Dickens penned the witheringly caustic caricature of Mrs. Jellyby's "telescopic philanthropy" to general public approbation. Today, I doubt Mrs. Jellby's enormous hypocrisy even registers with many Bleak House readers. (Indeed, does anyone still read Dickens?) Something changed in the last century or so. Absurd charlatans and mountebanks who would formerly have been laughable objects of scorn and pity are now treated as Serious People with Important Ideas.

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa, @Intelligent Dasein

    That’s a good point, that it is easier to virtue signal by claiming to have helped a remote and abstract person than by actually helping a real life flesh and blood person close at hand. But then the real question is why is the former is taken at all seriously as a virtue signal?

    Our societies have much more material comfort than in Dickens’ time, so the sacrifice is less, which means the cost/benefit ratio to the virtue signaling is reversed; therefore almost everyone is now incentivised to be in on the mutually flattering fantasy.

    Notice how it was a rich women with no material worries whom Dickens satirised.

    If a society struggles to feed itself, it will not be rational for it to tolerate too much expensive virtue signaling, as the only benefit is ego validation for the signalers and the cost may be starvation.

    But if a society has dealt with those basic needs, it will experience things like ego validation as basic needs and people will meet those as they most easily can.

    Delusional displays of virtue are, from the perspective of less advanced societies, ridiculous luxuries, but now they are luxuries which we can afford and which are even becoming seen as essentials.

    This may be a difficult to digest symptom for you but it is also a symptom of a great thing. Like getting richer so you have a higher individual marginal tax rate.

    People want to feel virtuous and they want to socialise the cost of that acquisition. Society can bear it, so it does. Just like society now bears the cost of people who don’t want to be employed.

    There are many ways through this, but none back. Dreaming of social disaster so that we have social penury and can no longer afford this stuff is plain stupid. Waiting for the apocalypse is an awful political programme, just as waiting for death is an awful way to live life. Both sets of people will find that nothing they want comes to be.

    You can either help people past their need for ego validation, but you can’t do that until you have seen through your own illusions, or you can offer them something easier and at least equally as fulfilling. Anything else is pointless, because you need their consent, there’s nobody who is going to force them. The enforcers are just as incentivised as everyone else.

    • LOL: Clyde
    • Replies: @Jack Armstrong
    @Triteleia Laxa

    You can either help people past their need for ego validation, but you can’t do that until you have seen through your own illusions …That’s a big until.

    , @Gabe Ruth
    @Triteleia Laxa

    While I affirm with GKC (and TLP) that the problem is me (or yourself, as he put it), that will always be true in this vale of tears, in good times and in bad.

    Doesn't mean that there aren't some people who are actively harming me and mine, and that all they need to get sorted out is some psychoanalysis. Presumably your trite tidbits of profundity help you work something out, which is I suppose a good thing, but I'd venture to guess that most here find them annoyingly patronizing at best.

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa

  20. @Buzz Mohawk
    It's the Circle of Trust:


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHJGoZpFeM8

    Replies: @RichardTaylor

    Speaking of concentric circles, the lowest level of Hell is reserved for traitors. Those who failed to have proper loyalty to their own people. Imagine not having a preference for your own racial family!

    • Agree: 3g4me
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @RichardTaylor


    Speaking of concentric circles, the lowest level of Hell is reserved for traitors. Those who failed to have proper loyalty to their own people. Imagine not having a preference for your own racial family!
     
    I don't think the concentric circles of loyalty metaphor applies to nationalism and racialism. People with strong nationalistic and racialist feelings tend not to have or extend these feelings to the next level. For example, they will have greater positive feeling and loyalty to their pet dogs than a member of a foreign nation or race, even though the foreign member would be closer on the scale than a dog. Also strong nationalistic and racialist feelings are often accompanied by spiteful feelings towards out-groups, which would not be the case in the concentric scheme.

    I think people with strong feelings of loyalty towards a specific target, whether family, tribe, nation, race, etc., tend to target a specific level and then regard others beyond the target as not the next level on the concentric circle, but regard them as not on the circle altogether or on another circle entirely.

    Replies: @RichardTaylor

    , @Anonymous
    @RichardTaylor


    Speaking of concentric circles, the lowest level of Hell is reserved for traitors. Those who failed to have proper loyalty to their own people.
     
    According to whom?
    , @Chrisnonymous
    @RichardTaylor

    Actually, from the 5th circle down, it's pretty much a definition of leftism--wrath, heresy, graft, hypocrisy, sowing discord, lying, treachery...

  21. Our elites love of contorting our politics around the perceived needs and wants of small segments of our population and/or aspiring Americans seems like a political opportunity just waiting to be picked up.

  22. @Triteleia Laxa
    @Dieter Kief

    Thanks, that's a moving song.

    Replies: @Dieter Kief

    Tanks back. Jorja Smith’s – character – in her song – is The eternal teenager: Neither fish nor flesh – caught in the middle between poetic universalism (Friedrich Schlegel (romantische Universalpoesie) and real-world delusions. – She hit this romantic sweet spot here quite effortlessly, perfectly & playfully (=charmingly).

    [MORE]

    • Agree: Triteleia Laxa
    • Thanks: ic1000
    • Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican
    @Dieter Kief


    poetic universalism (Friedrich Schlegel (romantische Universalpoesie)
     

    She hit this romantic sweet spot here quite effortlessly …
     
    Ja, ja, Dieter. We are all ‘men of culture’ here hahahaha ;)
  23. @RichardTaylor

    No statesmen ought to injure other countries in order to benefit his own country.
     
    So we should have never conquered North America? If you believe that, you should leave. Actually, I can't think of a country that wasn't built by conquest.

    Replies: @Svevlad, @Henry's Cat, @Citizen of a Silly Country, @AndrewR, @Peter Akuleyev, @JMcG, @Jonathan Mason, @Jack Armstrong, @Prester John, @Colin Wright, @Reg Cæsar, @Deep Thought

    You have to love his chutzpah. A leading figure of one of the world’s great empires very near its peak talking about the virtues of leaving other nations and people alone.

    Also, I wonder how excited Macaulay would be about showing the same loyalty to an African who has British citizenship as he would to a Saxon or Celt. Probably not a lot.

    • Agree: RichardTaylor
    • Replies: @David Davenport
    @Citizen of a Silly Country

    Also, I wonder how excited Macaulay would be about showing the same loyalty to an African who has British citizenship as he would to a Saxon or Celt.

    So what?

    How would the English common wealth of the mid 19th century have increased by having Africans with British citizenship?

    Because diversity is supposed to be strength? Please explain.

    Don't try to change the subject to slavery. I agree, Britain didn't need slaves or slave trading.

    Replies: @Citizen of a Silly Country

  24. @RichardTaylor

    No statesmen ought to injure other countries in order to benefit his own country.
     
    So we should have never conquered North America? If you believe that, you should leave. Actually, I can't think of a country that wasn't built by conquest.

    Replies: @Svevlad, @Henry's Cat, @Citizen of a Silly Country, @AndrewR, @Peter Akuleyev, @JMcG, @Jonathan Mason, @Jack Armstrong, @Prester John, @Colin Wright, @Reg Cæsar, @Deep Thought

    Iceland… Pre-Anglo New Zealand… Pre-negro Madagascar

    While conquest is occasionally necessary, you are being very uncharitable here.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @AndrewR

    I can’t think of a country in Continental Europe, Asia, South America, Central America or North America that wasn’t conquered. And I mean many times over.

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @AndrewR


    Iceland… Pre-Anglo New Zealand… Pre-negro Madagascar

     

    Vermont.

    While conquest is occasionally necessary, you are being very uncharitable here.

     

    Why would you expect any different from Corvinus?
  25. So, let me get this straight. Citizenism say that:

    Showing the same loyalty to a stranger as you do to your extended family (Steve’s definition of race/ethnicity) is wrong.

    But, showing the same loyalty to a stranger who has a piece of paper with the words “American citizen” as you do to your extended family is right and virtuous.

    Makes sense to me. Who could argue with such airtight logic.

  26. @Triteleia Laxa
    The problem with concentric circles of loyalty is that they require actually knowing and understanding people and doing practical things to help them. They are in your life. This might sound like a good thing, but it is much easier to declare how much you're helping a bunch of people you don't know and don't understand and really have nothing to do with. This makes, for those who want to appear like a good person, the latter choice the most sensible.

    It is the adult dinner party and social virtue signaling equivalent of the virgin teenage boy claiming to have slept with some girl while on holiday.

    Imagine the teenage boy telling his friends, then his friends questioning him, but him being able to dismiss their questions as "racist", "offensive" and a sign of low moral character!

    Every virgin teenage boy would do it, and every time that fantasy girl would be a solid 10.

    Replies: @Dieter Kief, @Almost Missouri, @El Dato, @Anonymous, @JohnnyWalker123, @JohnnyWalker123

    Imagine the teenage boy telling his friends, then his friends questioning him, but him being able to dismiss their questions as “racist”, “offensive” and a sign of low moral character!

    Every virgin teenage boy would do it, and every time that fantasy girl would be a solid 10.

    I have been a teenage boy and I have never witnessed such a scene. It’s a scene from a Hollywood outlet, just add bad music.

    Maybe times have changed a lot.

    • Replies: @additionalMike
    @El Dato

    Mr. Dato, I do not understand the thrust of your comment.
    Are you saying that witnessing "the virgin teenage boy claiming to have slept with some girl while on holiday" has not happened in your experience , or that you have never seen any such fabricatore dismiss those questioning his story as “ 'racist”, “offensive” and a sign of low moral character?' "

    If it is the former, let me assure you that times have indeed changed.
    Please clarify.

  27. @Almost Missouri
    @Triteleia Laxa

    That's a good point, that it is easier to virtue signal by claiming to have helped a remote and abstract person than by actually helping a real life flesh and blood person close at hand. But then the real question is why is the former is taken at all seriously as a virtue signal? After all, until recently, if your family or village were in trouble and you declined to pitch in, no one would accept as an excuse the equivalent of "I gave at the office". But nowadays waving around your tax deductible donation receipt to the SPLC can buy you a lot of social credit. How did that happen?

    In 1853 Charles Dickens penned the witheringly caustic caricature of Mrs. Jellyby's "telescopic philanthropy" to general public approbation. Today, I doubt Mrs. Jellby's enormous hypocrisy even registers with many Bleak House readers. (Indeed, does anyone still read Dickens?) Something changed in the last century or so. Absurd charlatans and mountebanks who would formerly have been laughable objects of scorn and pity are now treated as Serious People with Important Ideas.

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa, @Intelligent Dasein

    But then the real question is why is the former is taken at all seriously as a virtue signal?

    It isn’t. You are completely misunderstanding the whole thing.

    Do you really think anybody cares about the so-called virtue of the virtue signalers? Do you really think anybody is impressed? No, nobody cares. Nobody is genuinely edified by this garbage. Virtue signaling is entirely about power.

    The virtue signaler operates by styling his actions as propositions which it is forbidden to deny. He does this precisely so that you aren’t allowed to criticize him when he kills, steals, and destroys. It’s Phariseeism; it’s the oldest trick in the book.

    “Don’t you care about the wellbeing of others? Then shut up and take your vaccine, loser.”

    People, being sinners, are attracted to this kind of power. They don’t need any other reason to virtue signal. There can scarcely be any other reason to virtue signal, because nobody who was trying to be productive or helpful would ever act this way. The virtue signaler uses guilt, social sanction, and threats of violence to brutalize you into subjugation. Whenever you encounter one of these people and they successfully coerce you into compliance, you always walk away feeling dirty and they always walk away feeling powerful. They win and you lose. You may have to put up with this as a fact of life, but nobody really believes such things are a virtue. They don’t even believe it themselves.

    There is no need to make it more complicated than that.

    • Agree: Kylie, Kratoklastes
  28. @RichardTaylor

    No statesmen ought to injure other countries in order to benefit his own country.
     
    So we should have never conquered North America? If you believe that, you should leave. Actually, I can't think of a country that wasn't built by conquest.

    Replies: @Svevlad, @Henry's Cat, @Citizen of a Silly Country, @AndrewR, @Peter Akuleyev, @JMcG, @Jonathan Mason, @Jack Armstrong, @Prester John, @Colin Wright, @Reg Cæsar, @Deep Thought

    There were no “countries” in North America when the British colonists arrived, just heathen savages, therefore no harm done. Macaulay was also in favor of defensive wars to protect his own country from being harmed by others. It is a funny thing how many wars can be construed as “defensive” if you put your mind to it.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Peter Akuleyev

    Indeed the best population estimates by scholars is around 1.5 million people in all of North America including Alaska and Canada amazingly.

    This in great contrast to the large population centers of modern day Mexico City and Andean Peru, the former which the earliest european explorers likend to Paris and Seville, then the largest known cities in the world.

    , @Matt Buckalew
    @Peter Akuleyev

    Lol this is the kind of laughable quibbling that this crypto bursts a gasket at when it’s deployed against one of his shitty causes.

    , @Colin Wright
    @Peter Akuleyev

    'It is a funny thing how many wars can be construed as “defensive” if you put your mind to it.'

    I don't think a non-defensive war has been fought since the eighteenth century.

    Even Tamerlane used to proclaim his peaceful and merciful intentions. But inevitably, some dastardly citizen would attack one of his poor innocent soldiers, and so, Tamerlane would just have to order everyone put to death again. Sigh. No more Mister Nice Guy -- again.

    , @Bardon Kaldian
    @Peter Akuleyev

    Of course.

    https://www.unz.com/article/american-settlers-meet-spartans/

    American Settlers Meet Spartans

  29. I say that, by exerting ourselves to promote the happiness of the society with which we are most nearly connected, and with which we are best acquainted, we shall do more to promote the happiness of mankind than by busying ourselves about matters which we do not fully understand, and cannot efficiently control.

    This actually understates the great irony in the adventurism of the globalist establishment. I have been noticed time-after-time (after four decades in Asia) that Western would-be do-gooders’ misunderstandings of alien nations are damagingly intensified by their ignorance of their own cultures. Particularly religion.

    Having no bench-marks which to place the surveyed people against these observers are often hopelessly adrift. Everything becomes a kind of game.

  30. Pretty weak sauce, Sailer, but that’s all you ever have. Despite your endless exhortations to those people not Branch Covidians to elaborate or explain or provide context for their reasoning, you blatantly ignore the context of Macauley, who was writing about nations at a time when citizen equaled nationality. England was not full of Jamaicans and Pakistanis, and MacCauley would hardly have been able to conceive of a polyglot country like the United States post 1860, let alone today.

    To try to conflate natural patriotism and bonds of citizenship amongst people with shared genetic ethnic heritage, language, history, and culture with your ludicrous insistence on treating the Afghani down the street as one’s biblical neighbor, you merely prove you were never anything but a sophist.

    • Replies: @Matt Buckalew
    @3g4me

    You need to read between the lines Steve just wants to shame Mexicans into littering less and into not using their guns as ad hoc fireworks. then get them to team up and put swagged out bruthas back where Steve thinks they belong.

  31. Are you quoting the British Thomas Babington Macaulay or the Nigerian?

  32. “If all men are my brothers, then no man is my brother.”

  33. The community that hunts and eats together stays together.

  34. @RichardTaylor

    No statesmen ought to injure other countries in order to benefit his own country.
     
    So we should have never conquered North America? If you believe that, you should leave. Actually, I can't think of a country that wasn't built by conquest.

    Replies: @Svevlad, @Henry's Cat, @Citizen of a Silly Country, @AndrewR, @Peter Akuleyev, @JMcG, @Jonathan Mason, @Jack Armstrong, @Prester John, @Colin Wright, @Reg Cæsar, @Deep Thought

    North America wasn’t a country, nor a polity. It was a savage wilderness.

    • Replies: @RichardTaylor
    @JMcG

    I agree that North America was full of savages. Nonetheless, it was inhabited to some extent by a bunch of warring tribes. Obviously, they generally had to be overcome by sheer force. I'm not scolding, I think it was a good thing.

    I'm trying to say that acting like conquest per se is some "moral crime" is silly. And it's silly to say you would never harm another country in order to help your own people. It's usually not prudent, but it could be necessary. Or even beneficial.

  35. OFF TOPIC — reads like a sports page …

    Man shot near north Minneapolis market dies, marking city’s 4th homicide in less than 29 hours

    The homicide toll for the year in Minneapolis now stands at 67.

    By Paul Walsh
    Star Tribune SEPTEMBER 10, 2021 — 7:50AM

    One of two people shot Thursday night near a busy north Minneapolis intersection has died, authorities said.

    This homicide was the fourth in the city in a span of less than 29 hours and brings the total for the year in Minneapolis to 67, according to Star Tribune records. No arrests have been announced in any of these killings since Wednesday afternoon.

    Officers were alerted shortly after 8 p.m. Thursday by ShotSpotter technology of gunfire near the Pennwood Market at the corner of N. Glenwood Avenue and N. Penn Avenue, said police spokesman Garrett Parten.

    Police were soon notified that two males were taken in separate private vehicles to HCMC in critical condition from gunshot wounds, Parten said.

    In the other recent killings, according to police:

    • About 3:40 p.m. Wednesday, 12-year-old London Bean was fatally shot in the 800 block of N. Aldrich Avenue during an argument between two groups.

    • Officers responding about 2:45 a.m. to a report of shots fired in the 2000 block of N. Emerson Avenue located a man gravely wounded inside an apartment. The man, identity yet to be disclosed, died at the scene.

    • A man was shot Thursday inside Clientele Barber Shop at 707 N. 42nd Av. and died around 6:15 p.m. Another man and a woman were wounded. Authorities have yet to release their identities.

    Thank you Mr. Floyd!!! 🙂

    • Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican
    @Jack Armstrong


    A man was shot Thursday inside Clientele Barber Shop
     
    No doubt!

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/cdc-issues-the-new-newspeak/#comment-4871632 (#6)

  36. @RichardTaylor

    No statesmen ought to injure other countries in order to benefit his own country.
     
    So we should have never conquered North America? If you believe that, you should leave. Actually, I can't think of a country that wasn't built by conquest.

    Replies: @Svevlad, @Henry's Cat, @Citizen of a Silly Country, @AndrewR, @Peter Akuleyev, @JMcG, @Jonathan Mason, @Jack Armstrong, @Prester John, @Colin Wright, @Reg Cæsar, @Deep Thought

    Germany, Italy, Greece, Scotland, Australia, Sweden, Iceland, Andorra, the Vatican, France?

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @Jonathan Mason

    Almost all of those are unusable as examples per high school level history. Iceland was a land without people for a people without enough land. I don't know anything about Andorra.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

  37. In a related story from yesterday

    These Africans managed to maroon themselves in an inaccessible spot on an island near Lampedusa. The “heroic” Italian coast guard had to rescue each one by swimming with rafts from their rescue ship in treacherous waters.

    • Replies: @Joe Stalin
    @Hangnail Hans

    Fictional rendition.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sp_53clz-c

  38. And if a man were so absurd and perverse as to starve his own family in order to relieve people with whom he had no acquaintance, there can be little doubt that his crazy charity would produce much more misery than happiness.

    What Macaulay rightly sees as absurd and crazy is standard morality in today’s political world. Witness our open invitation to illegal immigrants while our own people sink into joblessness and drug addictions.
    Steven Pinker celebrates the “expanding circle of loyalties” as part of a humanitarian revolution that is progressively making the world more moral. He views family, tribal, and national loyalties as backwards and a threat.

    Macaulay’s answer to Pinker:

    by exerting ourselves to promote the happiness of the society with which we are most nearly connected, and with which we are best acquainted, we shall do more to promote the happiness of mankind than by busying ourselves about matters which we do not fully understand, and cannot efficiently control.

  39. @Triteleia Laxa
    @Almost Missouri


    That’s a good point, that it is easier to virtue signal by claiming to have helped a remote and abstract person than by actually helping a real life flesh and blood person close at hand. But then the real question is why is the former is taken at all seriously as a virtue signal?
     
    Our societies have much more material comfort than in Dickens' time, so the sacrifice is less, which means the cost/benefit ratio to the virtue signaling is reversed; therefore almost everyone is now incentivised to be in on the mutually flattering fantasy.

    Notice how it was a rich women with no material worries whom Dickens satirised.

    If a society struggles to feed itself, it will not be rational for it to tolerate too much expensive virtue signaling, as the only benefit is ego validation for the signalers and the cost may be starvation.

    But if a society has dealt with those basic needs, it will experience things like ego validation as basic needs and people will meet those as they most easily can.

    Delusional displays of virtue are, from the perspective of less advanced societies, ridiculous luxuries, but now they are luxuries which we can afford and which are even becoming seen as essentials.

    This may be a difficult to digest symptom for you but it is also a symptom of a great thing. Like getting richer so you have a higher individual marginal tax rate.

    People want to feel virtuous and they want to socialise the cost of that acquisition. Society can bear it, so it does. Just like society now bears the cost of people who don't want to be employed.

    There are many ways through this, but none back. Dreaming of social disaster so that we have social penury and can no longer afford this stuff is plain stupid. Waiting for the apocalypse is an awful political programme, just as waiting for death is an awful way to live life. Both sets of people will find that nothing they want comes to be.

    You can either help people past their need for ego validation, but you can't do that until you have seen through your own illusions, or you can offer them something easier and at least equally as fulfilling. Anything else is pointless, because you need their consent, there's nobody who is going to force them. The enforcers are just as incentivised as everyone else.

    Replies: @Jack Armstrong, @Gabe Ruth

    You can either help people past their need for ego validation, but you can’t do that until you have seen through your own illusions …That’s a big until.

    • LOL: Triteleia Laxa
  40. Macaulay makes the assumption that governments and rulers want what is best for the people of their country, and doesn’t take into account that some rulers may simply be in the game to enrich themselves and their cronies.

    Even in the United States it is noticeable that neither the Senate nor the House have many or even any poor people among the numbers, and even those who start out from humble beginnings enrich themselves during the course of a political career.

    Biden apparently started out from fairly humble beginnings and was a citizen senator who commuted to work in Washington on the train, but those days are long past, and I wonder when was the last time that he or his wife had to get in line in a supermarket to pay for something or hunt for a parking space.

    Is Macaulay making an argument for states’ rights or for federalism? Am I my brother’s keeper? Who is my brother?

    Jesus said that his brothers were not those who were related to him, but those who made common cause with him.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Jonathan Mason

    Even in the United States it is noticeable that neither the Senate nor the House have many or even any poor people among the numbers, and even those who start out from humble beginnings enrich themselves during the course of a political career.

    Actual poor people are (1) outside the workforce for one of a menu of reasons or (2) consumed with the task of making rent from their modest quantum of human capital. They're not running for office (bar a few oddballs like the late Melvin Perkins in Baltimore) and they're not involved in philanthropic activities other than something face-to-face local.

    The only thing out of the ordinary about Biden's 'origins' is that he was elected to Congress at a peculiarly young age. He didn't have much in the way of salable assets because he'd only finished his schooling four years earlier and he never built much of a legal practice. (He was an associate with time on his hands).

    I used to ride the Metroliner from Baltimore to Washington. It was a pleasant way to travel.

    Replies: @Jonathan Mason

  41. @RichardTaylor

    No statesmen ought to injure other countries in order to benefit his own country.
     
    So we should have never conquered North America? If you believe that, you should leave. Actually, I can't think of a country that wasn't built by conquest.

    Replies: @Svevlad, @Henry's Cat, @Citizen of a Silly Country, @AndrewR, @Peter Akuleyev, @JMcG, @Jonathan Mason, @Jack Armstrong, @Prester John, @Colin Wright, @Reg Cæsar, @Deep Thought

    Conquest? North of the Rio Grande, it was hardly conquest. Pretty tame by historical standards, I mean the Palestinians don’t get to sell tax free cigarettes and run casinos do they?

    • LOL: RichardTaylor
  42. It’s a non sequitar that opposition to citizenism follows from Macauley’s theme.

    This is a perennial matter in places iSteve – just-how-much, nature? ; just-how-much, nuture?

    From iSteve himself – and the overwhelming body of science – there’s a large dollop of both. From a large plurality of the audience – we-are-only-here-because-its-all-nature-all-the-time-end-of-subject-I-can’t-hear-you-are-you-saying-something-about-science-or-something?

    So yes – there are concentric circles of loyalty, but they do not all follow from the umbilical cord. Did anyone else watch the Cowboys and the Buccaneers in a bar last night or was I the only one? None of that loyalty followed from an umbilical cord.

    High school and college loyalty. Neighborhood loyalty. State loyalty. “Southern” loyalty. The Yankees or Red Sox loyalty. Loyalty assigned by adoption.

    The problem is not that one corner of our politics consciously took the matter of loyalty off the public agenda – which is exactly what one party did. There’s been a party doing that since at least the time Aristotle wrote his politics.

    The problem is that the other corner – call it the Cicero corner – looked the other way, and iSteve was the only person who, well, ehem, “noticed” and pointed out this citizenism thing.

    Were the matter of loyalty held – as it should be – as an indispensable signatory feature of our politics and governance – then we would have a different kind of politics.

    For example: we might say – “yes – because 400 years of slavery, because 100 years of Jim Crow, yes there will be 50 or 100 years of AA, but – that is because we are a nation and every single party to the AA contract must affirm positively they are of that nation”.

    And so on, with so many other policies. Yes – there are beneficiaries, but yes – beneficiaries are reminded and expected to ascend to their role as members of the nation – and it goes both, or all three ways.

    Corporations – you are members of a nation and you owe something to its people
    Women – you are members of a nation, and they aren’t all women
    White people – you too, are members of a nation, and they aren’t all white people

    This shouldn’t be weird – to anyone raised with the rituals and symbols of loyalty to the flag, constitution and nation – any of this should come naturally. Excess ethnic nationalism only grows when civic nationalism is neutralized.

    The Democrats neutralized our civic nationalism, and the Republicans looked at corporate globalism money and looked the other way. We are six decades later now.

    • Replies: @RichardTaylor
    @SimplePseudonymicHandle

    Citizenism involves a lot of unrequited love. You notice it's always put on White folks to welcome their families turning Brown. When has a Civic Nationalist or a Citizenist ever even suggested Brown or Black folks will feel loyalty to White Americans?

    The price of Citizenism is genetic destruction, ugliness, and eventual Brown misery.

    Unless it involves segregation and separation within the country. Do they suggest that?

  43. @RichardTaylor

    No statesmen ought to injure other countries in order to benefit his own country.
     
    So we should have never conquered North America? If you believe that, you should leave. Actually, I can't think of a country that wasn't built by conquest.

    Replies: @Svevlad, @Henry's Cat, @Citizen of a Silly Country, @AndrewR, @Peter Akuleyev, @JMcG, @Jonathan Mason, @Jack Armstrong, @Prester John, @Colin Wright, @Reg Cæsar, @Deep Thought

    The Indi…er, I mean Native Americans (or, more accurately, “Native Americans Who Actually Came From Northeast Asia”) “conquered” North America first. Or is it “Indigenous People?” Or, as they call ’em in the Great White North “First Nations?” I give up.

    • Thanks: Buzz Mohawk
    • LOL: RichardTaylor
    • Replies: @Alfa158
    @Prester John

    I use Siberian-Americans. Just plain Siberians is even more accurate because there was no place called America when they walked across the Bering land bridge, but that tends to confuse people even more than does Siberian-Americans.

    , @joe862
    @Prester John

    "First Nations" = last illiterates. They were there when literates arrived, we maybe eventually could figure out if they'd been there closer to a year or a thousand. Without a written history you really don't know.

    Replies: @AndrewR, @Colin Wright

  44. @Jonathan Mason
    @RichardTaylor

    Germany, Italy, Greece, Scotland, Australia, Sweden, Iceland, Andorra, the Vatican, France?

    Replies: @J.Ross

    Almost all of those are unusable as examples per high school level history. Iceland was a land without people for a people without enough land. I don’t know anything about Andorra.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @J.Ross


    I don’t know anything about Andorra.
     
    Algú sap res d’Andorra?


    https://www.theflagshop.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/thumbnail/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/a/n/andorra.jpg
  45. Anonymous[290] • Disclaimer says:
    @Triteleia Laxa
    The problem with concentric circles of loyalty is that they require actually knowing and understanding people and doing practical things to help them. They are in your life. This might sound like a good thing, but it is much easier to declare how much you're helping a bunch of people you don't know and don't understand and really have nothing to do with. This makes, for those who want to appear like a good person, the latter choice the most sensible.

    It is the adult dinner party and social virtue signaling equivalent of the virgin teenage boy claiming to have slept with some girl while on holiday.

    Imagine the teenage boy telling his friends, then his friends questioning him, but him being able to dismiss their questions as "racist", "offensive" and a sign of low moral character!

    Every virgin teenage boy would do it, and every time that fantasy girl would be a solid 10.

    Replies: @Dieter Kief, @Almost Missouri, @El Dato, @Anonymous, @JohnnyWalker123, @JohnnyWalker123

    Agreed, the big change in society over last 50 years isn’t patriotism or “racism” or sexual morality. It’s that techno-economics made much, much cheaper *seeming* to X to care about X and/or Y and Z, whereas non-virtual caring about something in reality hasn’t benefited from the same productivity effects.

    Your call is valuable to us, please stay on the line and a representative will be with you shortly. While you’re waiting, take the following 5 to 500 question survey

  46. @Triteleia Laxa
    The problem with concentric circles of loyalty is that they require actually knowing and understanding people and doing practical things to help them. They are in your life. This might sound like a good thing, but it is much easier to declare how much you're helping a bunch of people you don't know and don't understand and really have nothing to do with. This makes, for those who want to appear like a good person, the latter choice the most sensible.

    It is the adult dinner party and social virtue signaling equivalent of the virgin teenage boy claiming to have slept with some girl while on holiday.

    Imagine the teenage boy telling his friends, then his friends questioning him, but him being able to dismiss their questions as "racist", "offensive" and a sign of low moral character!

    Every virgin teenage boy would do it, and every time that fantasy girl would be a solid 10.

    Replies: @Dieter Kief, @Almost Missouri, @El Dato, @Anonymous, @JohnnyWalker123, @JohnnyWalker123

    Imagine the teenage boy telling his friends, then his friends questioning him, but him being able to dismiss their questions as “racist”, “offensive” and a sign of low moral character!

    Every virgin teenage boy would do it, and every time that fantasy girl would be a solid 10.

    Watch the above 30 second clip. It’s funny. Nothing can ever beat the Simpsons during the 90s.

    Moe : Good, ’cause I got a hot date tonight.

    [buzz]

    Moe : A date.

    [buzz]

    Moe : Dinner with friends.

    [buzz]

    Moe : Dinner alone.

    [buzz]

    Moe : Watching TV alone.

    [buzz]

    Moe : All right! I’m going to sit at home and ogle the ladies in the Victoria’s Secret catalog.

    [buzz]

    Moe : Sears catalog.

    [ding]

    Moe : Now would you unhook this already, please? I don’t deserve this kind of shabby treatment.

    [buzz]

    • Replies: @Triteleia Laxa
    @JohnnyWalker123

    That's brilliant.

  47. @Triteleia Laxa
    @Almost Missouri


    That’s a good point, that it is easier to virtue signal by claiming to have helped a remote and abstract person than by actually helping a real life flesh and blood person close at hand. But then the real question is why is the former is taken at all seriously as a virtue signal?
     
    Our societies have much more material comfort than in Dickens' time, so the sacrifice is less, which means the cost/benefit ratio to the virtue signaling is reversed; therefore almost everyone is now incentivised to be in on the mutually flattering fantasy.

    Notice how it was a rich women with no material worries whom Dickens satirised.

    If a society struggles to feed itself, it will not be rational for it to tolerate too much expensive virtue signaling, as the only benefit is ego validation for the signalers and the cost may be starvation.

    But if a society has dealt with those basic needs, it will experience things like ego validation as basic needs and people will meet those as they most easily can.

    Delusional displays of virtue are, from the perspective of less advanced societies, ridiculous luxuries, but now they are luxuries which we can afford and which are even becoming seen as essentials.

    This may be a difficult to digest symptom for you but it is also a symptom of a great thing. Like getting richer so you have a higher individual marginal tax rate.

    People want to feel virtuous and they want to socialise the cost of that acquisition. Society can bear it, so it does. Just like society now bears the cost of people who don't want to be employed.

    There are many ways through this, but none back. Dreaming of social disaster so that we have social penury and can no longer afford this stuff is plain stupid. Waiting for the apocalypse is an awful political programme, just as waiting for death is an awful way to live life. Both sets of people will find that nothing they want comes to be.

    You can either help people past their need for ego validation, but you can't do that until you have seen through your own illusions, or you can offer them something easier and at least equally as fulfilling. Anything else is pointless, because you need their consent, there's nobody who is going to force them. The enforcers are just as incentivised as everyone else.

    Replies: @Jack Armstrong, @Gabe Ruth

    While I affirm with GKC (and TLP) that the problem is me (or yourself, as he put it), that will always be true in this vale of tears, in good times and in bad.

    Doesn’t mean that there aren’t some people who are actively harming me and mine, and that all they need to get sorted out is some psychoanalysis. Presumably your trite tidbits of profundity help you work something out, which is I suppose a good thing, but I’d venture to guess that most here find them annoyingly patronizing at best.

    • Replies: @Triteleia Laxa
    @Gabe Ruth


    Doesn’t mean that there aren’t some people who are actively harming me and mine
     
    If you were honest with yourself, you would realise that "some people" are "actively harming" you and yours about as much as you act to do anything about it.

    What does the person controlling your actions know that the person I am speaking with does not?
  48. @Triteleia Laxa
    The problem with concentric circles of loyalty is that they require actually knowing and understanding people and doing practical things to help them. They are in your life. This might sound like a good thing, but it is much easier to declare how much you're helping a bunch of people you don't know and don't understand and really have nothing to do with. This makes, for those who want to appear like a good person, the latter choice the most sensible.

    It is the adult dinner party and social virtue signaling equivalent of the virgin teenage boy claiming to have slept with some girl while on holiday.

    Imagine the teenage boy telling his friends, then his friends questioning him, but him being able to dismiss their questions as "racist", "offensive" and a sign of low moral character!

    Every virgin teenage boy would do it, and every time that fantasy girl would be a solid 10.

    Replies: @Dieter Kief, @Almost Missouri, @El Dato, @Anonymous, @JohnnyWalker123, @JohnnyWalker123

    virgin teenage boy claiming to have slept with some girl while on holiday.

    Imagine the teenage boy telling his friends, then his friends questioning him, but him being able to dismiss their questions as “racist”, “offensive” and a sign of low moral character!

    Every virgin teenage boy would do it, and every time that fantasy girl would be a solid 10

    https://genius.com/Wheatus-teenage-dirtbag-lyrics

    [Chorus]
    ‘Cause I’m just a teenage dirtbag, baby
    Yeah, I’m just a teenage dirtbag, baby
    Listen to Iron Maiden, baby, with me, ooh

    [Bridge]
    Oh, yeah, dirtbag
    No, she doesn’t know what she’s missin’
    Oh, yeah, dirtbag
    No, she doesn’t know what she’s missin’

  49. “No statesmen ought to injure other countries in order to benefit his own country.”

    And there’s the rub. According to the SJW rule book, certain states and statemen HAVE injured all the other countries, unforgivably so, to the extent that any benefits that they have ever acquired or ever will acquire are forfeit.

    So great are their crimes, that whatever corresponding injuries — from slave-taking to pillaging to rape to bigotry, which all the states and statemen in all the other countries have since time immemorial inflicted upon their neighbors — shall be ignored, or else blamed as after-effects (time-causality notwithstanding) of those injuries that have been declared unforgivable.

    All this, because they say so.

    So you show me a 50-foot moral principle, and I’ll show you a 51-foot exemption written with you in mind.

  50. Aquinas was way ahead of all of you: https://www.newadvent.org/summa/3031.htm#article3

    Of course, as Lao Tzu teaches, once it has to be stated, you’ve already lost the way.

  51. This applies to vaccination

    Why the f should I risk myself and my kids (myocarditis, menstruation, guillian barr, bell’s palsy, eye issues, tinnitus, nerve damage, blood clots–from strokes to thrombosis to hemmorhages) to save a fully vaccinated obese or elderly person…

    It’s Madness.

    And it doesn’t make you a good person to take the vaccine for the Good of Society. You aren’t a bad person…but in no way is it proof of you being a Good Person. You may be a bad person if you are supporting the evil’s of Big Pharma.

  52. I met Kennan at the Institute For Advanced study dining hall in Princeton where he lived for 40 years dying aged 100 not long ago.

    You @Isteve are no George Kennan

    • Agree: 3g4me
  53. Anonymous[658] • Disclaimer says:
    @Peter Akuleyev
    @RichardTaylor

    There were no "countries" in North America when the British colonists arrived, just heathen savages, therefore no harm done. Macaulay was also in favor of defensive wars to protect his own country from being harmed by others. It is a funny thing how many wars can be construed as "defensive" if you put your mind to it.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Matt Buckalew, @Colin Wright, @Bardon Kaldian

    Indeed the best population estimates by scholars is around 1.5 million people in all of North America including Alaska and Canada amazingly.

    This in great contrast to the large population centers of modern day Mexico City and Andean Peru, the former which the earliest european explorers likend to Paris and Seville, then the largest known cities in the world.

  54. espouse the philosophy of citizenism

    Citizenism, or the less clumsy (but still imperfect) civic nationalism, is not a philosophy but a tactic. Each should be used when the time is right. Or a third, if it is more appropriate.

    the duty of a British Legislator

    Which of these two terms is more outdated? At least the proposed alternatives to British are more specific rather than less, which is a good sign.

    I’m not “Eurocentric”, but Anglocentric. Maybe “Euroconcentric”!)

    There are great evils connected with the factory system in this country… And if a man were so absurd and perverse as to starve his own family in order to relieve people with whom he had no acquaintance, there can be little doubt that his crazy charity would produce much more misery than happiness.

    Coincidence? Seven years later, Charles Dickens published Bleak House, featuring Mrs Jellyby:

    She was a pretty, very diminutive, plump woman, of from forty to fifty, with handsome eyes, though they had a curious habit of seeming to look a long way off. As if—I am quoting Richard again—they could see nothing nearer than Africa!

  55. I coincidentally read a bit of this passage favorably quoted by George F. Kennan in his book Around the Cragged Hill recently. Three know-nothing ignoramuses who espouse the philosophy of citizenism: Thomas Babington Macaulay, George F. Kennan, and Steve Sailer.

    Actually, nothing in this critique or Kennan’s is specifically “citizenist”, so, no. Citizenism is a non-starter decades in the making. A cope, citizenism is like that trunk Leonardo DiCaprio clings to at the end of Titanic.
    There’s no shame in ditching it. You gave the bastards a chance. Now let’s fight.

  56. Macaulay’s argument, though seemingly reasonable and felicitously expressed, suffers from a fatal weakness: it implicitly accepts the fundamental assumption of the other side: moral universalism/impartiality.

    …if a man were…to starve his own family in order to relieve people with whom he had no acquaintance, there can be little doubt that his crazy charity would produce much more misery than happiness.

    And, again:

    …by exerting ourselves to promote the happiness of the society with which we are most nearly connected, and with which we are best acquainted, we shall do more to promote the happiness of mankind than by busying ourselves about matters which we do not fully understand, and cannot efficiently control.

    In other words, the reason we should be permitted to favor family, friends, neighbors and countrymen over strangers and foreigners when figuring out our moral responsibilities is because that is what will maximize the overall happiness – the “happiness of mankind.”

    In Chapter 2 of his pamphlet Utilitarianism, JS Mill makes exactly the same point in defending his universalist system against the charge that it demands too much of people.

    But modern advocates of moral universalism/impartiality point out that, obviously, things have changed since the days of Macaulay & Mill. Due to accumulated wealth plus technological advances in transportation and communications, even the lower middle classes in the affluent West are now in a position where they can quite literally save lives on the other side of the planet at the cost of a bit of easily expendable luxury. So, if the “happiness of mankind” is the standard, then they must do so.

    The classic statement of this point is Peter Singer’s 1972 essay, “Famine, Affluence & Morality.” If you don’t know it, Google it and read it.

  57. @Peter Akuleyev
    @RichardTaylor

    There were no "countries" in North America when the British colonists arrived, just heathen savages, therefore no harm done. Macaulay was also in favor of defensive wars to protect his own country from being harmed by others. It is a funny thing how many wars can be construed as "defensive" if you put your mind to it.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Matt Buckalew, @Colin Wright, @Bardon Kaldian

    Lol this is the kind of laughable quibbling that this crypto bursts a gasket at when it’s deployed against one of his shitty causes.

  58. @3g4me
    Pretty weak sauce, Sailer, but that's all you ever have. Despite your endless exhortations to those people not Branch Covidians to elaborate or explain or provide context for their reasoning, you blatantly ignore the context of Macauley, who was writing about nations at a time when citizen equaled nationality. England was not full of Jamaicans and Pakistanis, and MacCauley would hardly have been able to conceive of a polyglot country like the United States post 1860, let alone today.

    To try to conflate natural patriotism and bonds of citizenship amongst people with shared genetic ethnic heritage, language, history, and culture with your ludicrous insistence on treating the Afghani down the street as one's biblical neighbor, you merely prove you were never anything but a sophist.

    Replies: @Matt Buckalew

    You need to read between the lines Steve just wants to shame Mexicans into littering less and into not using their guns as ad hoc fireworks. then get them to team up and put swagged out bruthas back where Steve thinks they belong.

  59. Give all the land back seems to be the trick here in California, at least for some ethnicities. Although, the state doesn’t seem to be in a rush to hand San Francisco back to the Ohlone tribe, or Yosemite Park to the Northern Paiute Nation.

    A parcel of Manhattan Beach, California was taken by eminent domain from an African-American couple who had purchased the property in 1912, and had founded a beach house resort business. In 1924 the L.A County Board acquired their land, ostensibly create a public park. It is an entirely different matter to pass a law 100 years later to hand over a parcel of land, that while not altogether fairly, was taken by the city through a legal instrument created in the prior century that was re-affirmed by the Supreme Court in 1876.

    Now a law SB 796 is headed to the Governor’s desk for approval to give the land back to the living relatives.

    Los Angeles County returns \$75M land to Black family

    From the article: https://www.pridepublishinggroup.com/pride/2021/07/29/los-angeles-county-returns-75m-land-to-black-family/

    “Back in the 1920’s, Manhattan Beach agreed to pay Willa and Charles Bruce about \$14,000 for their property, a fraction of its worth by today’s standards.”

    \$14,000 in 1924 is worth roughly \$223,000 dollars in today’s money for a parcel of beachfront about 3 acres, or \$74,300/per acre. To even compare modern real estate price values as a measurement of injustice is illogical. The current estimate is 75 MILLION dollars for current valuation, or 25 Million/per acre. To say it was a rotten deal for the city to confiscate the land in the early 20th century from the Bruce family is a no-brainer, as eminent domain has and continues to be used in devious ways for municipalities to legally steal landowners property with less than just compensation. But to allow this atonement on racial grounds is simply a matter of virtue signaling based on identity politics and unjust demographic appeasement.

    Back to the article:

    “Our next step will be, once we get that land restored to us, is to go after them for the restitution, for the loss of revenue for 96 years of our family from the business, the loss of generational wealth, and the punitive damages for their collusion with the Ku Klux Klan in disenfranchising our family,” Shepard said.

    One thing that can never be known is if the descendants would still even own this land today if it was never taken by eminent domain. To claim a loss of revenue based upon the notion that the business would still be in operation over 100 years later is pure speculation and conjecture. To even attempt a parallel comparison for the California of 1921 vs California of today is a farce. The population circa. 1920: 3.5 million for the entire state. Los Angeles county contained 576,000 residents, roughly the current census for Fresno. The current population of California is over 40+ Million with L.A. County holding 10.4 Million residents.

    The following is some verbiage contained in the law:

    https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billCompareClient.xhtml?bill_id=202120220SB796&showamends=false

    SECTION 1.

    The Legislature finds and declares all of the following:

    (a) The United States of America has never fully addressed the institution and practice of 250 years of chattel slavery; the ideology that established and maintained it has left an indelible stain on the fabric of this nation and is embedded in virtually every facet of American culture and civil society.

    (b) The legacy of the intentional structuring of opportunity, implementation of policies and practices, and assignment of value based solely on skin color and other physical characteristics has created, and continues to create, unfair disadvantages for Black people.

    (c) Racial discrimination has prevented entire communities of people from achieving their full potential due to its manifestations, including, but not limited to, the implementation of Black codes and Jim Crow laws, the widespread and accepted practices of lynching and sexually assaulting Black men and women, voter suppression of Black Americans, the false concept of separate but equal schools, state-sanctioned housing discrimination in the form of redlining and enforcement of racially restrictive covenants, disparate access to and substandard treatment within the health care system, police brutality in Black communities, the misguided war on drugs, and mass incarceration.

    (d) Racism aggravates and exacerbates historical inequities and consequently deprives marginalized communities of access to land,

    economic opportunities, and a stable future.

    (e) The experience of Willa and Charles Bruce is an example of how racism against Black people has reached crisis proportions and has resulted in large disparities in family stability, health and mental wellness, education, employment, economic development, public safety, criminal justice, and housing.

    “California task force will consider paying reparations for slavery.”

    https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-09-30/california-task-force-reparations-slavery-gavin-newsom-shirley-weber

    This is just the first in what will surely be a long line of claims, grievances and petitions for redress in California thanks to a new task force created late last year in the wake of riots and protests held over racially percieved incidences beween law enforcement and the black community. Strangely, no one mentions that California was admitted to the Union as a free state as part of the Compromise of 1850.

  60. @Hangnail Hans
    In a related story from yesterday

    https://i.ibb.co/fvRRCXm/Capture-2021-09-10-11-10-02-2.png

    These Africans managed to maroon themselves in an inaccessible spot on an island near Lampedusa. The "heroic" Italian coast guard had to rescue each one by swimming with rafts from their rescue ship in treacherous waters.


    https://i.ibb.co/jwj6syP/Capture-2021-09-10-11-13-37-2.png

    Replies: @Joe Stalin

    Fictional rendition.

  61. “and every time that fantasy girl would be a solid 10”

    Not in my high school. Fantasy Girl’s ambition would be kindergarten (or special ed.) teacher, not fashion model. Of course, I am ancient, and times might have changed.

    Anyway, fascinating, important, complicated topic and comments – – Sailer University is better than my so-called fancy college.

  62. This all is weak, and Macaulay was anything but a “deep thinker”. Basically, what he writes here is the same Confucians had elaborated 2 millennia before him, even using the same metaphor of concentric circles.

    Then, his deeds run contrary to his words: he, as the British administrator in India, had profoundly changed the life of Indians, for better and for worse. He perhaps treated Indians as “English in the making”, but if so- he was out of his mind. Of course a colonial force shapes their subjects according to its concepts of right and wrong- but this all is completely subjective.

    England and India are two different worlds, and while it is perfectly natural for Macaulay (or anyone else) to give the primary loyalty to his own country- in his case England- why would any Indian feel the same about England? And not try to boot those foreigners out?

    Or, even more “at home”- why wouldn’t Irish and Scottish nationalists try to chase the English out of their lands? After all, these were their native lands where imposed foreign elites ruled.

    Macauley is lauded as a great stylist. Perhaps, but this all is empty and rather shallow, without much substance; as a political thinker, he’s antiquated (not there is anything unexpected about it).

    And he has almost nothing to say to the modern world.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Macauly, as you might guess, was Scots

    , @Anonymous
    @Bardon Kaldian


    Then, his deeds run contrary to his words: he, as the British administrator in India, had profoundly changed the life of Indians, for better and for worse.
     
    How did the British change India for the worse? The benefits appear so substantial that any reference to drawbacks in the same sentence would seem to be misleading.

    why would any Indian feel the same about England?
     
    Because England offered to make India part of itself and England is a high social capital, high status, high material wealth entity.
  63. @Prester John
    @RichardTaylor

    The Indi...er, I mean Native Americans (or, more accurately, "Native Americans Who Actually Came From Northeast Asia") "conquered" North America first. Or is it "Indigenous People?" Or, as they call 'em in the Great White North "First Nations?" I give up.

    Replies: @Alfa158, @joe862

    I use Siberian-Americans. Just plain Siberians is even more accurate because there was no place called America when they walked across the Bering land bridge, but that tends to confuse people even more than does Siberian-Americans.

    • Agree: Muggles, RichardTaylor
  64. Steve, I do respect this concept, and in fact apply it to CJK relations so far as a shared heritage and loyalty to East Asian civilization.

    But it is well known that the British Royals, House of Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha is genetically more related to other European Royals than their own citizens. And that Wilhelm II was Victoria’s grandson.

    And theoretical question stand as to where to draw the circles, for instance, the English people with their nuclear families, probably would not draw a circle around their second cousins.

    So far as international relations, the Brits probably did not feel enough loyalty to their West Germanic cousins, shared Enlightenment and Reformation values and all, when they entered into the Anglo-Russian Convention (1907) as a response to German construction of Bagdad Railway.

    Just like Diplomatic Revolution (1756) before Seven Year’s War, when Britain switched from allying with Austria to with Prussia, against France, thalassocracies have been playing these balance of power games since time immemorial

    View post on imgur.com


    Even so far as the Special Relationship, Britain only has interests, not allies lol
    https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/12/20/david-cameron-didnt-just-sell-out-to-china/

  65. @BB753
    Citizenism has a fatal flaw. Namely, nation states no longer exist as such. In this globalized world, sovereign states are a dying species. Global organizations such as the UN, foundations like the CFR, big corporations and big banks wield more power than individual states.
    Thus, the very concept of citizenship is moot.

    Replies: @njguy73

    To paraphrase the Ned Beatty character in Network, there are no nations, there are no people, there is only Twitter, Facebook, Google, Amazon, and Walmart. Those are the nations.

    • LOL: BB753
  66. @Gabe Ruth
    @Triteleia Laxa

    While I affirm with GKC (and TLP) that the problem is me (or yourself, as he put it), that will always be true in this vale of tears, in good times and in bad.

    Doesn't mean that there aren't some people who are actively harming me and mine, and that all they need to get sorted out is some psychoanalysis. Presumably your trite tidbits of profundity help you work something out, which is I suppose a good thing, but I'd venture to guess that most here find them annoyingly patronizing at best.

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa

    Doesn’t mean that there aren’t some people who are actively harming me and mine

    If you were honest with yourself, you would realise that “some people” are “actively harming” you and yours about as much as you act to do anything about it.

    What does the person controlling your actions know that the person I am speaking with does not?

  67. @Dieter Kief
    @Triteleia Laxa

    Tanks back. Jorja Smith's - character - in her song - is The eternal teenager: Neither fish nor flesh - caught in the middle between poetic universalism (Friedrich Schlegel (romantische Universalpoesie) and real-world delusions. - She hit this romantic sweet spot here quite effortlessly, perfectly & playfully (=charmingly).



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTnWe_sMznM

    Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican

    poetic universalism (Friedrich Schlegel (romantische Universalpoesie)

    She hit this romantic sweet spot here quite effortlessly …

    Ja, ja, Dieter. We are all ‘men of culture’ here hahahaha 😉

  68. @Jack Armstrong
    OFF TOPIC — reads like a sports page …

    Man shot near north Minneapolis market dies, marking city's 4th homicide in less than 29 hours

    The homicide toll for the year in Minneapolis now stands at 67.

    By Paul Walsh
    Star Tribune SEPTEMBER 10, 2021 — 7:50AM

    One of two people shot Thursday night near a busy north Minneapolis intersection has died, authorities said.

    This homicide was the fourth in the city in a span of less than 29 hours and brings the total for the year in Minneapolis to 67, according to Star Tribune records. No arrests have been announced in any of these killings since Wednesday afternoon.


    Officers were alerted shortly after 8 p.m. Thursday by ShotSpotter technology of gunfire near the Pennwood Market at the corner of N. Glenwood Avenue and N. Penn Avenue, said police spokesman Garrett Parten.

    Police were soon notified that two males were taken in separate private vehicles to HCMC in critical condition from gunshot wounds, Parten said.
     

    In the other recent killings, according to police:

    • About 3:40 p.m. Wednesday, 12-year-old London Bean was fatally shot in the 800 block of N. Aldrich Avenue during an argument between two groups.

    • Officers responding about 2:45 a.m. to a report of shots fired in the 2000 block of N. Emerson Avenue located a man gravely wounded inside an apartment. The man, identity yet to be disclosed, died at the scene.

    • A man was shot Thursday inside Clientele Barber Shop at 707 N. 42nd Av. and died around 6:15 p.m. Another man and a woman were wounded. Authorities have yet to release their identities.
     
    Thank you Mr. Floyd!!! :)

    Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican

    A man was shot Thursday inside Clientele Barber Shop

    No doubt!

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/cdc-issues-the-new-newspeak/#comment-4871632 (#6)

  69. @Jonathan Mason
    Macaulay makes the assumption that governments and rulers want what is best for the people of their country, and doesn't take into account that some rulers may simply be in the game to enrich themselves and their cronies.

    Even in the United States it is noticeable that neither the Senate nor the House have many or even any poor people among the numbers, and even those who start out from humble beginnings enrich themselves during the course of a political career.

    Biden apparently started out from fairly humble beginnings and was a citizen senator who commuted to work in Washington on the train, but those days are long past, and I wonder when was the last time that he or his wife had to get in line in a supermarket to pay for something or hunt for a parking space.

    Is Macaulay making an argument for states' rights or for federalism? Am I my brother's keeper? Who is my brother?

    Jesus said that his brothers were not those who were related to him, but those who made common cause with him.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    Even in the United States it is noticeable that neither the Senate nor the House have many or even any poor people among the numbers, and even those who start out from humble beginnings enrich themselves during the course of a political career.

    Actual poor people are (1) outside the workforce for one of a menu of reasons or (2) consumed with the task of making rent from their modest quantum of human capital. They’re not running for office (bar a few oddballs like the late Melvin Perkins in Baltimore) and they’re not involved in philanthropic activities other than something face-to-face local.

    The only thing out of the ordinary about Biden’s ‘origins’ is that he was elected to Congress at a peculiarly young age. He didn’t have much in the way of salable assets because he’d only finished his schooling four years earlier and he never built much of a legal practice. (He was an associate with time on his hands).

    I used to ride the Metroliner from Baltimore to Washington. It was a pleasant way to travel.

    • Replies: @Jonathan Mason
    @Art Deco

    The volumes of Biden's biography should be entitled Run, Biden, Run, Biden Redux, Biden Is Rich, and Biden Impeached.

    His alter ego, Baron Kinnock appears to be living comfortably, since he and his wife Glenys have between them accumulated six government pensions adding up to a total of about $250,000 a year which they would not have been able to obtain had they not had a Labor Party platform on which to stand.

    His son is a Member of Parliament.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

  70. @AndrewR
    @RichardTaylor

    Iceland... Pre-Anglo New Zealand... Pre-negro Madagascar

    While conquest is occasionally necessary, you are being very uncharitable here.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Reg Cæsar

    I can’t think of a country in Continental Europe, Asia, South America, Central America or North America that wasn’t conquered. And I mean many times over.

  71. @JohnnyWalker123
    @Triteleia Laxa


    Imagine the teenage boy telling his friends, then his friends questioning him, but him being able to dismiss their questions as “racist”, “offensive” and a sign of low moral character!

    Every virgin teenage boy would do it, and every time that fantasy girl would be a solid 10.
     

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQGwrK_yDEg

    Watch the above 30 second clip. It's funny. Nothing can ever beat the Simpsons during the 90s.


    Moe : Good, 'cause I got a hot date tonight.

    [buzz]

    Moe : A date.

    [buzz]

    Moe : Dinner with friends.

    [buzz]

    Moe : Dinner alone.

    [buzz]

    Moe : Watching TV alone.

    [buzz]

    Moe : All right! I'm going to sit at home and ogle the ladies in the Victoria's Secret catalog.

    [buzz]

    Moe : Sears catalog.

    [ding]

    Moe : Now would you unhook this already, please? I don't deserve this kind of shabby treatment.

    [buzz]
     

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa

    That’s brilliant.

    • Agree: JohnnyWalker123
  72. An entity characterized by a small circle of loyalty is OK. Think the little red schoolhouse.

    When the radius stretches by >> 15%, the entity becomes a travesty and the loyalty factor becomes absurd. Think a public school district.

  73. @Art Deco
    @Jonathan Mason

    Even in the United States it is noticeable that neither the Senate nor the House have many or even any poor people among the numbers, and even those who start out from humble beginnings enrich themselves during the course of a political career.

    Actual poor people are (1) outside the workforce for one of a menu of reasons or (2) consumed with the task of making rent from their modest quantum of human capital. They're not running for office (bar a few oddballs like the late Melvin Perkins in Baltimore) and they're not involved in philanthropic activities other than something face-to-face local.

    The only thing out of the ordinary about Biden's 'origins' is that he was elected to Congress at a peculiarly young age. He didn't have much in the way of salable assets because he'd only finished his schooling four years earlier and he never built much of a legal practice. (He was an associate with time on his hands).

    I used to ride the Metroliner from Baltimore to Washington. It was a pleasant way to travel.

    Replies: @Jonathan Mason

    The volumes of Biden’s biography should be entitled Run, Biden, Run, Biden Redux, Biden Is Rich, and Biden Impeached.

    His alter ego, Baron Kinnock appears to be living comfortably, since he and his wife Glenys have between them accumulated six government pensions adding up to a total of about \$250,000 a year which they would not have been able to obtain had they not had a Labor Party platform on which to stand.

    His son is a Member of Parliament.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Jonathan Mason


    The volumes of Biden’s biography should be entitled Run, Biden, Run, Biden Redux, Biden Is Rich, and Biden Impeached.

     

    Or Biden Our Time Till Kamala.


    (Oops... I said "Till".)

    Replies: @The Germ Theory of Disease

  74. Anonymous[169] • Disclaimer says:
    @RichardTaylor
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Speaking of concentric circles, the lowest level of Hell is reserved for traitors. Those who failed to have proper loyalty to their own people. Imagine not having a preference for your own racial family!

    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/3b/40/5e/3b405e19b583a0207a4749020fa5834f.jpg

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Anonymous, @Chrisnonymous

    Speaking of concentric circles, the lowest level of Hell is reserved for traitors. Those who failed to have proper loyalty to their own people. Imagine not having a preference for your own racial family!

    I don’t think the concentric circles of loyalty metaphor applies to nationalism and racialism. People with strong nationalistic and racialist feelings tend not to have or extend these feelings to the next level. For example, they will have greater positive feeling and loyalty to their pet dogs than a member of a foreign nation or race, even though the foreign member would be closer on the scale than a dog. Also strong nationalistic and racialist feelings are often accompanied by spiteful feelings towards out-groups, which would not be the case in the concentric scheme.

    I think people with strong feelings of loyalty towards a specific target, whether family, tribe, nation, race, etc., tend to target a specific level and then regard others beyond the target as not the next level on the concentric circle, but regard them as not on the circle altogether or on another circle entirely.

    • Replies: @RichardTaylor
    @Anonymous

    Interesting critique of the concentric circles model and I think you're right. In reality, among other social species, another group of the same species is usually seen as the worst enemy!

    Two neighboring troops of chimps will usually be at war. In the middle of their conflict, a human might actually be ignored, even though we are more alien (or because we are more alien genetically).

    I believe this is true for bees, ants, meerkats, etc.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @epebble

  75. @Svevlad
    @RichardTaylor

    Seeing what sorts of idiocy and bullshit that led us to, the whole Age of Exploration should have been slowed down and scrapped. Perhaps if our nobility had gotten their shit together and destroyed the Ottomans, preventing ludicrous taxes on the Bosporus from forcing Europeans to seek new routes, none of the problems we have today would happen

    Replies: @Anonymous

    Would’ve been better for white countries to stop fighting each other. Loyalty to each other should’ve prevailed. However, I wouldn’t blame the spirit of exploration and expansion. It’s what will drive us to the stars.

    • Agree: Buzz Mohawk
  76. @Anonymous
    So "I against my brother, my brothers and I against my cousins, my cousins and I against the world" is good again?

    Replies: @Citizen of a Silly Country

    Damn straight.

    Back to future, bitches.

    Ironically, pretending that race doesn’t matter only exists in societies where the founders eradicated other races. But Steve finds that reality distasteful, so he avoids talking about it. It’s much nicer to pretend that Citizenism works. Isn’t it pretty to think so.

    • Agree: RichardTaylor
  77. @RichardTaylor

    No statesmen ought to injure other countries in order to benefit his own country.
     
    So we should have never conquered North America? If you believe that, you should leave. Actually, I can't think of a country that wasn't built by conquest.

    Replies: @Svevlad, @Henry's Cat, @Citizen of a Silly Country, @AndrewR, @Peter Akuleyev, @JMcG, @Jonathan Mason, @Jack Armstrong, @Prester John, @Colin Wright, @Reg Cæsar, @Deep Thought

    ‘So we should have never conquered North America? If you believe that, you should leave. Actually, I can’t think of a country that wasn’t built by conquest.’

    Don’t be tedious.

    • Replies: @RichardTaylor
    @Colin Wright

    It's not a trivial point. The ability to seize and hold territory is an imperative. Those who prattle about how "wrong" it is should make sure they aren't living on land that was conquered and settled on their behalf.

    Replies: @Colin Wright

  78. @Peter Akuleyev
    @RichardTaylor

    There were no "countries" in North America when the British colonists arrived, just heathen savages, therefore no harm done. Macaulay was also in favor of defensive wars to protect his own country from being harmed by others. It is a funny thing how many wars can be construed as "defensive" if you put your mind to it.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Matt Buckalew, @Colin Wright, @Bardon Kaldian

    ‘It is a funny thing how many wars can be construed as “defensive” if you put your mind to it.’

    I don’t think a non-defensive war has been fought since the eighteenth century.

    Even Tamerlane used to proclaim his peaceful and merciful intentions. But inevitably, some dastardly citizen would attack one of his poor innocent soldiers, and so, Tamerlane would just have to order everyone put to death again. Sigh. No more Mister Nice Guy — again.

  79. @RichardTaylor
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Speaking of concentric circles, the lowest level of Hell is reserved for traitors. Those who failed to have proper loyalty to their own people. Imagine not having a preference for your own racial family!

    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/3b/40/5e/3b405e19b583a0207a4749020fa5834f.jpg

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Anonymous, @Chrisnonymous

    Speaking of concentric circles, the lowest level of Hell is reserved for traitors. Those who failed to have proper loyalty to their own people.

    According to whom?

  80. @RichardTaylor

    No statesmen ought to injure other countries in order to benefit his own country.
     
    So we should have never conquered North America? If you believe that, you should leave. Actually, I can't think of a country that wasn't built by conquest.

    Replies: @Svevlad, @Henry's Cat, @Citizen of a Silly Country, @AndrewR, @Peter Akuleyev, @JMcG, @Jonathan Mason, @Jack Armstrong, @Prester John, @Colin Wright, @Reg Cæsar, @Deep Thought

    So we should have never conquered North America? If you believe that, you should leave.

    The problem with conquest is what to do with the natives. What you don’t do is replace them with aliens from a third continent, as in Hispaniola.

    Otherwise, you end up with, well, Hispaniola.

  81. @AndrewR
    @RichardTaylor

    Iceland... Pre-Anglo New Zealand... Pre-negro Madagascar

    While conquest is occasionally necessary, you are being very uncharitable here.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Reg Cæsar

    Iceland… Pre-Anglo New Zealand… Pre-negro Madagascar

    Vermont.

    While conquest is occasionally necessary, you are being very uncharitable here.

    Why would you expect any different from Corvinus?

  82. @Jonathan Mason
    @Art Deco

    The volumes of Biden's biography should be entitled Run, Biden, Run, Biden Redux, Biden Is Rich, and Biden Impeached.

    His alter ego, Baron Kinnock appears to be living comfortably, since he and his wife Glenys have between them accumulated six government pensions adding up to a total of about $250,000 a year which they would not have been able to obtain had they not had a Labor Party platform on which to stand.

    His son is a Member of Parliament.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    The volumes of Biden’s biography should be entitled Run, Biden, Run, Biden Redux, Biden Is Rich, and Biden Impeached.

    Or Biden Our Time Till Kamala.

    (Oops… I said “Till”.)

    • Replies: @The Germ Theory of Disease
    @Reg Cæsar

    There's some justice in JM's titles: Biden after all is just as bland, anodyne and clueless as Updike.

    But Updike of course did far less damage. And he wasn't a criminal.

    I like a headline from the Babylon Bee re Biden during the campaign: "Man Who Sat in Senate for 40 Years While Nation Declined Promises He Can Fix America".

    Replies: @slumber_j, @Reg Cæsar

  83. @Prester John
    @RichardTaylor

    The Indi...er, I mean Native Americans (or, more accurately, "Native Americans Who Actually Came From Northeast Asia") "conquered" North America first. Or is it "Indigenous People?" Or, as they call 'em in the Great White North "First Nations?" I give up.

    Replies: @Alfa158, @joe862

    “First Nations” = last illiterates. They were there when literates arrived, we maybe eventually could figure out if they’d been there closer to a year or a thousand. Without a written history you really don’t know.

    • Replies: @AndrewR
    @joe862

    Oral histories can be quite accurate, although there are many confounding variables.

    , @Colin Wright
    @joe862

    '“First Nations” = last illiterates. They were there when literates arrived, we maybe eventually could figure out if they’d been there closer to a year or a thousand. Without a written history you really don’t know.'

    This will happen even with writing. Britons in Nineteenth Century India used to joke that 'from time immemorial' meant 'more than a hundred years old.'

    In general, people move around more than one would think. Absent evidence to the contrary, one probably should assume that any Paleolithic or even early Neolithic group hasn't been wherever you find them more than two or three hundred years. Naturally, people may wash up in some mountain valley or whatever and just dig in, but as a rule...

    It's interesting to reflect that actually, this process is going on right now. We feel obliged to not object -- but in general, Rohingya to Bangladesh, Syrians to Turkey, Guatemalans to the United States, and Nigerians to London represent exactly what will happen and keep happening if we let it.

    People won't just sit there. If there's nothing to stop them, and the grass looks greener on the other side of the fence, they'll go -- and I submit they always have.

  84. @Citizen of a Silly Country
    @RichardTaylor

    You have to love his chutzpah. A leading figure of one of the world's great empires very near its peak talking about the virtues of leaving other nations and people alone.

    Also, I wonder how excited Macaulay would be about showing the same loyalty to an African who has British citizenship as he would to a Saxon or Celt. Probably not a lot.

    Replies: @David Davenport

    Also, I wonder how excited Macaulay would be about showing the same loyalty to an African who has British citizenship as he would to a Saxon or Celt.

    So what?

    How would the English common wealth of the mid 19th century have increased by having Africans with British citizenship?

    Because diversity is supposed to be strength? Please explain.

    Don’t try to change the subject to slavery. I agree, Britain didn’t need slaves or slave trading.

    • Replies: @Citizen of a Silly Country
    @David Davenport

    Your reading comprehension skills need some work.

  85. @J.Ross
    @Jonathan Mason

    Almost all of those are unusable as examples per high school level history. Iceland was a land without people for a people without enough land. I don't know anything about Andorra.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    I don’t know anything about Andorra.

    Algú sap res d’Andorra?

  86. @El Dato
    @Triteleia Laxa


    Imagine the teenage boy telling his friends, then his friends questioning him, but him being able to dismiss their questions as “racist”, “offensive” and a sign of low moral character!

    Every virgin teenage boy would do it, and every time that fantasy girl would be a solid 10.
     
    I have been a teenage boy and I have never witnessed such a scene. It's a scene from a Hollywood outlet, just add bad music.

    Maybe times have changed a lot.

    Replies: @additionalMike

    Mr. Dato, I do not understand the thrust of your comment.
    Are you saying that witnessing “the virgin teenage boy claiming to have slept with some girl while on holiday” has not happened in your experience , or that you have never seen any such fabricatore dismiss those questioning his story as “ ‘racist”, “offensive” and a sign of low moral character?’ ”

    If it is the former, let me assure you that times have indeed changed.
    Please clarify.

  87. @RichardTaylor
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Speaking of concentric circles, the lowest level of Hell is reserved for traitors. Those who failed to have proper loyalty to their own people. Imagine not having a preference for your own racial family!

    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/3b/40/5e/3b405e19b583a0207a4749020fa5834f.jpg

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Anonymous, @Chrisnonymous

    Actually, from the 5th circle down, it’s pretty much a definition of leftism–wrath, heresy, graft, hypocrisy, sowing discord, lying, treachery…

  88. @JMcG
    @RichardTaylor

    North America wasn’t a country, nor a polity. It was a savage wilderness.

    Replies: @RichardTaylor

    I agree that North America was full of savages. Nonetheless, it was inhabited to some extent by a bunch of warring tribes. Obviously, they generally had to be overcome by sheer force. I’m not scolding, I think it was a good thing.

    I’m trying to say that acting like conquest per se is some “moral crime” is silly. And it’s silly to say you would never harm another country in order to help your own people. It’s usually not prudent, but it could be necessary. Or even beneficial.

    • Agree: JMcG
  89. @SimplePseudonymicHandle
    It's a non sequitar that opposition to citizenism follows from Macauley's theme.

    This is a perennial matter in places iSteve - just-how-much, nature? ; just-how-much, nuture?

    From iSteve himself - and the overwhelming body of science - there's a large dollop of both. From a large plurality of the audience - we-are-only-here-because-its-all-nature-all-the-time-end-of-subject-I-can't-hear-you-are-you-saying-something-about-science-or-something?

    So yes - there are concentric circles of loyalty, but they do not all follow from the umbilical cord. Did anyone else watch the Cowboys and the Buccaneers in a bar last night or was I the only one? None of that loyalty followed from an umbilical cord.

    High school and college loyalty. Neighborhood loyalty. State loyalty. "Southern" loyalty. The Yankees or Red Sox loyalty. Loyalty assigned by adoption.


    The problem is not that one corner of our politics consciously took the matter of loyalty off the public agenda - which is exactly what one party did. There's been a party doing that since at least the time Aristotle wrote his politics.

    The problem is that the other corner - call it the Cicero corner - looked the other way, and iSteve was the only person who, well, ehem, "noticed" and pointed out this citizenism thing.

    Were the matter of loyalty held - as it should be - as an indispensable signatory feature of our politics and governance - then we would have a different kind of politics.

    For example: we might say - "yes - because 400 years of slavery, because 100 years of Jim Crow, yes there will be 50 or 100 years of AA, but - that is because we are a nation and every single party to the AA contract must affirm positively they are of that nation".

    And so on, with so many other policies. Yes - there are beneficiaries, but yes - beneficiaries are reminded and expected to ascend to their role as members of the nation - and it goes both, or all three ways.

    Corporations - you are members of a nation and you owe something to its people
    Women - you are members of a nation, and they aren't all women
    White people - you too, are members of a nation, and they aren't all white people

    This shouldn't be weird - to anyone raised with the rituals and symbols of loyalty to the flag, constitution and nation - any of this should come naturally. Excess ethnic nationalism only grows when civic nationalism is neutralized.

    The Democrats neutralized our civic nationalism, and the Republicans looked at corporate globalism money and looked the other way. We are six decades later now.

    Replies: @RichardTaylor

    Citizenism involves a lot of unrequited love. You notice it’s always put on White folks to welcome their families turning Brown. When has a Civic Nationalist or a Citizenist ever even suggested Brown or Black folks will feel loyalty to White Americans?

    The price of Citizenism is genetic destruction, ugliness, and eventual Brown misery.

    Unless it involves segregation and separation within the country. Do they suggest that?

  90. So we should have never conquered North America? If you believe that, you should leave. Actually, I can’t think of a country that wasn’t built by conquest.

    This is a major theme of the Woke (we stole the country and don’t deserve to keep it) and merits a good answer.
    I’m proud of our history and see our conquest and settlement of the continent as an epic and heroic journey by our founding fathers. But at the same time I am certainly not in favor of conquering anyone today. And I can agree that conquering other people and taking their land is wrong in principle in any age.
    How to square the circle?
    To me the answer is just – reality. Morality is not reasoning about principles, or a thought experiment. Morality is what you do in the real world. Good morality is choosing between A or B when other theoretical options are not going to happen.
    In 1620 a fairly modern and industrial people, who needed land and the opportunity it afforded, encountered a stone age people, who also needed land and the opportunity it afforded. The practical reality is that the Indians were not going to keep this land. No use arguing about that.
    And “the right thing to do” doesn’t necessarily mean “never harm others”.
    Morality isn’t just “am I harming others”. Morality is also “am I building a good future for my family”. And “are we achieving great things that will take the human race forward”. And “are we courageous”. And yes it is also good morality to say “let’s be practical”.
    Woke morality, as it is used to blame Americans, is built solely on “don’t hurt other people”, “don’t dominate”. But heroism and achievement necessitate some type of superiority, and achievement is good.
    As others have pointed out, every people have fought and killed to secure the land they have. No people sprang from the earth as if by magic in the land they occupy. We can take the best of our past, the courage and endurance of those who fought for the land, agree not to go around attacking other nations today, and move on. That’s reality.

    • Agree: ArthurinCali
  91. @Colin Wright
    @RichardTaylor

    'So we should have never conquered North America? If you believe that, you should leave. Actually, I can’t think of a country that wasn’t built by conquest.'

    Don't be tedious.

    Replies: @RichardTaylor

    It’s not a trivial point. The ability to seize and hold territory is an imperative. Those who prattle about how “wrong” it is should make sure they aren’t living on land that was conquered and settled on their behalf.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    @RichardTaylor

    'It’s not a trivial point. The ability to seize and hold territory is an imperative. Those who prattle about how “wrong” it is should make sure they aren’t living on land that was conquered and settled on their behalf.'

    This is likely to become a rationalization for continued criminality. It is, for example, a favorite argument of Zionists.

    To turn the argument on its head, that I stole a car as an adolescent doesn't mean I should stand by if I see you raping the neighbor's daughter. That somebody else committed what is a sin by current standards at some point in the past doesn't somehow justify you doing it now.

    Replies: @Anonymous

  92. @Reg Cæsar
    @Jonathan Mason


    The volumes of Biden’s biography should be entitled Run, Biden, Run, Biden Redux, Biden Is Rich, and Biden Impeached.

     

    Or Biden Our Time Till Kamala.


    (Oops... I said "Till".)

    Replies: @The Germ Theory of Disease

    There’s some justice in JM’s titles: Biden after all is just as bland, anodyne and clueless as Updike.

    But Updike of course did far less damage. And he wasn’t a criminal.

    I like a headline from the Babylon Bee re Biden during the campaign: “Man Who Sat in Senate for 40 Years While Nation Declined Promises He Can Fix America”.

    • Replies: @slumber_j
    @The Germ Theory of Disease


    Biden after all is just as bland, anodyne and clueless as Updike.
     
    Nice.
    , @Reg Cæsar
    @The Germ Theory of Disease


    There’s some justice in JM’s titles: Biden after all is just as bland, anodyne and clueless as Updike.

     

    The ABCs of politics. At least Updike didn't pretend to be Catholic.
  93. @Peter Akuleyev
    @RichardTaylor

    There were no "countries" in North America when the British colonists arrived, just heathen savages, therefore no harm done. Macaulay was also in favor of defensive wars to protect his own country from being harmed by others. It is a funny thing how many wars can be construed as "defensive" if you put your mind to it.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Matt Buckalew, @Colin Wright, @Bardon Kaldian

    Of course.

    https://www.unz.com/article/american-settlers-meet-spartans/

    American Settlers Meet Spartans

  94. @Anonymous
    @RichardTaylor


    Speaking of concentric circles, the lowest level of Hell is reserved for traitors. Those who failed to have proper loyalty to their own people. Imagine not having a preference for your own racial family!
     
    I don't think the concentric circles of loyalty metaphor applies to nationalism and racialism. People with strong nationalistic and racialist feelings tend not to have or extend these feelings to the next level. For example, they will have greater positive feeling and loyalty to their pet dogs than a member of a foreign nation or race, even though the foreign member would be closer on the scale than a dog. Also strong nationalistic and racialist feelings are often accompanied by spiteful feelings towards out-groups, which would not be the case in the concentric scheme.

    I think people with strong feelings of loyalty towards a specific target, whether family, tribe, nation, race, etc., tend to target a specific level and then regard others beyond the target as not the next level on the concentric circle, but regard them as not on the circle altogether or on another circle entirely.

    Replies: @RichardTaylor

    Interesting critique of the concentric circles model and I think you’re right. In reality, among other social species, another group of the same species is usually seen as the worst enemy!

    Two neighboring troops of chimps will usually be at war. In the middle of their conflict, a human might actually be ignored, even though we are more alien (or because we are more alien genetically).

    I believe this is true for bees, ants, meerkats, etc.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @RichardTaylor


    Two neighboring troops of chimps will usually be at war. In the middle of their conflict, a human might actually be ignored, even though we are more alien (or because we are more alien genetically).

     

    A young white Minneapolitan posted about 15 years ago the story of how he and his girlfriend walked unmolested through a large African stickfight/melee on the West Bank between Somali and Ethiopian teenagers. So much for racial solidarity. (Have you donated to Gavin Newsom yet?)

    Replies: @Anonymous

    , @epebble
    @RichardTaylor

    Two neighboring troops of chimps will usually be at war. In the middle of their conflict, a human might actually be ignored, even though we are more alien (or because we are more alien genetically).

    Please don't try this. This story makes good copy, but is dangerous if put to action! Chimps can as easily decide you are the alien and attack you jointly. Afghans do it - I and My Brother Against My Cousin. Chimps can too.

    Replies: @epebble, @Reg Cæsar

  95. @The Germ Theory of Disease
    @Reg Cæsar

    There's some justice in JM's titles: Biden after all is just as bland, anodyne and clueless as Updike.

    But Updike of course did far less damage. And he wasn't a criminal.

    I like a headline from the Babylon Bee re Biden during the campaign: "Man Who Sat in Senate for 40 Years While Nation Declined Promises He Can Fix America".

    Replies: @slumber_j, @Reg Cæsar

    Biden after all is just as bland, anodyne and clueless as Updike.

    Nice.

  96. @David Davenport
    @Citizen of a Silly Country

    Also, I wonder how excited Macaulay would be about showing the same loyalty to an African who has British citizenship as he would to a Saxon or Celt.

    So what?

    How would the English common wealth of the mid 19th century have increased by having Africans with British citizenship?

    Because diversity is supposed to be strength? Please explain.

    Don't try to change the subject to slavery. I agree, Britain didn't need slaves or slave trading.

    Replies: @Citizen of a Silly Country

    Your reading comprehension skills need some work.

  97. @Bardon Kaldian
    This all is weak, and Macaulay was anything but a "deep thinker". Basically, what he writes here is the same Confucians had elaborated 2 millennia before him, even using the same metaphor of concentric circles.

    Then, his deeds run contrary to his words: he, as the British administrator in India, had profoundly changed the life of Indians, for better and for worse. He perhaps treated Indians as "English in the making", but if so- he was out of his mind. Of course a colonial force shapes their subjects according to its concepts of right and wrong- but this all is completely subjective.

    England and India are two different worlds, and while it is perfectly natural for Macaulay (or anyone else) to give the primary loyalty to his own country- in his case England- why would any Indian feel the same about England? And not try to boot those foreigners out?

    Or, even more "at home"- why wouldn't Irish and Scottish nationalists try to chase the English out of their lands? After all, these were their native lands where imposed foreign elites ruled.

    Macauley is lauded as a great stylist. Perhaps, but this all is empty and rather shallow, without much substance; as a political thinker, he's antiquated (not there is anything unexpected about it).

    And he has almost nothing to say to the modern world.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Anonymous

    Macauly, as you might guess, was Scots

  98. @RichardTaylor
    @Colin Wright

    It's not a trivial point. The ability to seize and hold territory is an imperative. Those who prattle about how "wrong" it is should make sure they aren't living on land that was conquered and settled on their behalf.

    Replies: @Colin Wright

    ‘It’s not a trivial point. The ability to seize and hold territory is an imperative. Those who prattle about how “wrong” it is should make sure they aren’t living on land that was conquered and settled on their behalf.’

    This is likely to become a rationalization for continued criminality. It is, for example, a favorite argument of Zionists.

    To turn the argument on its head, that I stole a car as an adolescent doesn’t mean I should stand by if I see you raping the neighbor’s daughter. That somebody else committed what is a sin by current standards at some point in the past doesn’t somehow justify you doing it now.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Colin Wright

    From the perspective of pro-Israel Zionists it is good. It’s good for their lives and good for their genes if done right.

    But we could name another thousand tribes that did the same thing. Facts are facts about what is good for your people.

  99. @joe862
    @Prester John

    "First Nations" = last illiterates. They were there when literates arrived, we maybe eventually could figure out if they'd been there closer to a year or a thousand. Without a written history you really don't know.

    Replies: @AndrewR, @Colin Wright

    Oral histories can be quite accurate, although there are many confounding variables.

  100. Anonymous[231] • Disclaimer says:
    @Bardon Kaldian
    This all is weak, and Macaulay was anything but a "deep thinker". Basically, what he writes here is the same Confucians had elaborated 2 millennia before him, even using the same metaphor of concentric circles.

    Then, his deeds run contrary to his words: he, as the British administrator in India, had profoundly changed the life of Indians, for better and for worse. He perhaps treated Indians as "English in the making", but if so- he was out of his mind. Of course a colonial force shapes their subjects according to its concepts of right and wrong- but this all is completely subjective.

    England and India are two different worlds, and while it is perfectly natural for Macaulay (or anyone else) to give the primary loyalty to his own country- in his case England- why would any Indian feel the same about England? And not try to boot those foreigners out?

    Or, even more "at home"- why wouldn't Irish and Scottish nationalists try to chase the English out of their lands? After all, these were their native lands where imposed foreign elites ruled.

    Macauley is lauded as a great stylist. Perhaps, but this all is empty and rather shallow, without much substance; as a political thinker, he's antiquated (not there is anything unexpected about it).

    And he has almost nothing to say to the modern world.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Anonymous

    Then, his deeds run contrary to his words: he, as the British administrator in India, had profoundly changed the life of Indians, for better and for worse.

    How did the British change India for the worse? The benefits appear so substantial that any reference to drawbacks in the same sentence would seem to be misleading.

    why would any Indian feel the same about England?

    Because England offered to make India part of itself and England is a high social capital, high status, high material wealth entity.

  101. @The Germ Theory of Disease
    @Reg Cæsar

    There's some justice in JM's titles: Biden after all is just as bland, anodyne and clueless as Updike.

    But Updike of course did far less damage. And he wasn't a criminal.

    I like a headline from the Babylon Bee re Biden during the campaign: "Man Who Sat in Senate for 40 Years While Nation Declined Promises He Can Fix America".

    Replies: @slumber_j, @Reg Cæsar

    There’s some justice in JM’s titles: Biden after all is just as bland, anodyne and clueless as Updike.

    The ABCs of politics. At least Updike didn’t pretend to be Catholic.

  102. @RichardTaylor
    @Anonymous

    Interesting critique of the concentric circles model and I think you're right. In reality, among other social species, another group of the same species is usually seen as the worst enemy!

    Two neighboring troops of chimps will usually be at war. In the middle of their conflict, a human might actually be ignored, even though we are more alien (or because we are more alien genetically).

    I believe this is true for bees, ants, meerkats, etc.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @epebble

    Two neighboring troops of chimps will usually be at war. In the middle of their conflict, a human might actually be ignored, even though we are more alien (or because we are more alien genetically).

    A young white Minneapolitan posted about 15 years ago the story of how he and his girlfriend walked unmolested through a large African stickfight/melee on the West Bank between Somali and Ethiopian teenagers. So much for racial solidarity. (Have you donated to Gavin Newsom yet?)

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Reg Cæsar

    The issue of racial solidarity is related to the larger social context. If white people are surrounded by other groups, then yes, there will be solidarity.

    If white people were the only race on the planet then there would be other divisions.

    Ironically, as whites become less than 50% of America they will become far more racially conscious.

  103. Another Rachel Dolezal?

  104. @Jenner Ickham Errican

    espouse the philosophy of citizenism
     
    Citizenism is ideal to start with if every citizen in a country agrees on the rules about who is and who should be a citizen, but failing that, citizenism may be ‘leapfrogged’ if the demographic saucepan water gets too hot. Then overt domestic Who/Whom is the name of the game, if it wasn’t already.

    Replies: @RichardTaylor, @Corvinus

    “ Citizenism is ideal to start with if every citizen in a country agrees on the rules about who is and who should be a citizen.”

    With the flexibility to change those rules as the times change, aka our posterity. It’s who we are.

    • Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican
    @Corvinus


    With the flexibility to change those rules as the times change
     
    Or disregard the rules, even. For all sorts of things, not just immigration.

    Are You Ready For Some Football, Corvinus? :)
  105. Where “changing the rules” means disinheriting your own offspring?

  106. Anonymous[294] • Disclaimer says:
    @Reg Cæsar
    @RichardTaylor


    Two neighboring troops of chimps will usually be at war. In the middle of their conflict, a human might actually be ignored, even though we are more alien (or because we are more alien genetically).

     

    A young white Minneapolitan posted about 15 years ago the story of how he and his girlfriend walked unmolested through a large African stickfight/melee on the West Bank between Somali and Ethiopian teenagers. So much for racial solidarity. (Have you donated to Gavin Newsom yet?)

    Replies: @Anonymous

    The issue of racial solidarity is related to the larger social context. If white people are surrounded by other groups, then yes, there will be solidarity.

    If white people were the only race on the planet then there would be other divisions.

    Ironically, as whites become less than 50% of America they will become far more racially conscious.

  107. @RichardTaylor
    @Anonymous

    Interesting critique of the concentric circles model and I think you're right. In reality, among other social species, another group of the same species is usually seen as the worst enemy!

    Two neighboring troops of chimps will usually be at war. In the middle of their conflict, a human might actually be ignored, even though we are more alien (or because we are more alien genetically).

    I believe this is true for bees, ants, meerkats, etc.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @epebble

    Two neighboring troops of chimps will usually be at war. In the middle of their conflict, a human might actually be ignored, even though we are more alien (or because we are more alien genetically).

    Please don’t try this. This story makes good copy, but is dangerous if put to action! Chimps can as easily decide you are the alien and attack you jointly. Afghans do it – I and My Brother Against My Cousin. Chimps can too.

    • LOL: RichardTaylor
    • Replies: @epebble
    @epebble

    An interesting story of two "Afghans":


    Brokering exit from Afghanistan, U.S. envoy Khalilzad became face of diplomatic debacle

    https://www.reuters.com/world/us/brokering-exit-afghanistan-us-envoy-khalilzad-became-face-diplomatic-debacle-2021-09-10/
     
    Reading between lines, I sense a possible case of (cultural) (mis)communication.

    This is how I think the sequence might have played out.

    1. Trump wanted to "End the war in Afghanistan" and "Bring home all troops".
    2. State department searched for a diplomat who can engage with Taliban and negotiate an end.
    3. State picked Khalilzad as an old Afghan hand.
    4. White House then cutoff State and DoD and directly started giving instructions to Khalilzad
    5. Khalilzad was ordered by Trump/White House to: "End the war in Afghanistan" and "Bring home all troops".
    6. Khalilzad says "Yes Sir" and takes it as an order/command.
    7. Khalilzad goes to Doha, Qatar and meets Taliban's Baradar.
    8. Baradar asks Khalilzad (May be in Pashto?) the purpose of visit.
    9. Khalilzad says (May be in Pashto?) "End the war in Afghanistan" and "Bring home all troops".
    10. Baradar says: We can work it out.
    11. Baradar says: we can do it like this and gives Khalilzad the Doha Agreement.
    12. Khalilzad reads that and finds it satisfies the objectives: "End the war in Afghanistan" and "Bring home all troops".
    13. Khalilzad agrees to the Doha Agreement.

    https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Signed-Agreement-02292020.pdf

    The interesting part is, the Doha Agreement is a Surrender Document. In the enthusiasm that it fulfills Trump/Whitehouse objectives, Khalilzad does not appear to have considered the interests of United States. So, either consciously or unconsciously, he interpreted "End the war in Afghanistan" and "Bring home all troops" to mean "End the war in Afghanistan" and "Bring home all troops" At Any Cost.

    Replies: @J.Ross

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @epebble


    Please don’t try this.
     
    Please do, Mr Taylor.


    Conquering India and Jamaica led to Kamala Harris, who was spotted at a Larry Elder rally in Steve's neck of the brush:



    https://pjmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Screen-Shot-2021-09-10-at-5.42.31-PM-730x0.png

    Replies: @RichardTaylor

  108. @Corvinus
    @Jenner Ickham Errican

    “ Citizenism is ideal to start with if every citizen in a country agrees on the rules about who is and who should be a citizen.”

    With the flexibility to change those rules as the times change, aka our posterity. It’s who we are.

    Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican

    With the flexibility to change those rules as the times change

    Or disregard the rules, even. For all sorts of things, not just immigration.

    Are You Ready For Some Football, Corvinus? 🙂

  109. @Colin Wright
    @RichardTaylor

    'It’s not a trivial point. The ability to seize and hold territory is an imperative. Those who prattle about how “wrong” it is should make sure they aren’t living on land that was conquered and settled on their behalf.'

    This is likely to become a rationalization for continued criminality. It is, for example, a favorite argument of Zionists.

    To turn the argument on its head, that I stole a car as an adolescent doesn't mean I should stand by if I see you raping the neighbor's daughter. That somebody else committed what is a sin by current standards at some point in the past doesn't somehow justify you doing it now.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    From the perspective of pro-Israel Zionists it is good. It’s good for their lives and good for their genes if done right.

    But we could name another thousand tribes that did the same thing. Facts are facts about what is good for your people.

  110. @epebble
    @RichardTaylor

    Two neighboring troops of chimps will usually be at war. In the middle of their conflict, a human might actually be ignored, even though we are more alien (or because we are more alien genetically).

    Please don't try this. This story makes good copy, but is dangerous if put to action! Chimps can as easily decide you are the alien and attack you jointly. Afghans do it - I and My Brother Against My Cousin. Chimps can too.

    Replies: @epebble, @Reg Cæsar

    An interesting story of two “Afghans”:

    Brokering exit from Afghanistan, U.S. envoy Khalilzad became face of diplomatic debacle

    https://www.reuters.com/world/us/brokering-exit-afghanistan-us-envoy-khalilzad-became-face-diplomatic-debacle-2021-09-10/

    Reading between lines, I sense a possible case of (cultural) (mis)communication.

    This is how I think the sequence might have played out.

    1. Trump wanted to “End the war in Afghanistan” and “Bring home all troops”.
    2. State department searched for a diplomat who can engage with Taliban and negotiate an end.
    3. State picked Khalilzad as an old Afghan hand.
    4. White House then cutoff State and DoD and directly started giving instructions to Khalilzad
    5. Khalilzad was ordered by Trump/White House to: “End the war in Afghanistan” and “Bring home all troops”.
    6. Khalilzad says “Yes Sir” and takes it as an order/command.
    7. Khalilzad goes to Doha, Qatar and meets Taliban’s Baradar.
    8. Baradar asks Khalilzad (May be in Pashto?) the purpose of visit.
    9. Khalilzad says (May be in Pashto?) “End the war in Afghanistan” and “Bring home all troops”.
    10. Baradar says: We can work it out.
    11. Baradar says: we can do it like this and gives Khalilzad the Doha Agreement.
    12. Khalilzad reads that and finds it satisfies the objectives: “End the war in Afghanistan” and “Bring home all troops”.
    13. Khalilzad agrees to the Doha Agreement.

    https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Signed-Agreement-02292020.pdf

    The interesting part is, the Doha Agreement is a Surrender Document. In the enthusiasm that it fulfills Trump/Whitehouse objectives, Khalilzad does not appear to have considered the interests of United States. So, either consciously or unconsciously, he interpreted “End the war in Afghanistan” and “Bring home all troops” to mean “End the war in Afghanistan” and “Bring home all troops” At Any Cost.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @epebble

    So the Taliban wrote the part about killing Taliban fighters if they moved across certain lines, and then violated their own rule in order to die? Was that like testing us, or demonstrating the solidity of their training? What is depleted uranium compared to the Shahiyd who voluntarily impales himself on it? Your model sounds very valuable generally going forward, as more and more of the fate of America is in the hands of Vindmans, Murthies and Wens who do not care about it, but this sounds like a late damage control effort. Similarly, some news outlers have floated a rebranding attempt: Trump's Vaccine. Trump's Vaccine was, according to Democrats, positively dangerous when it was new, and a non-story when it was successful by then-current metrics, and then it was Biden's Effort, and now it's back to being Trump's Vaccine.

  111. @epebble
    @RichardTaylor

    Two neighboring troops of chimps will usually be at war. In the middle of their conflict, a human might actually be ignored, even though we are more alien (or because we are more alien genetically).

    Please don't try this. This story makes good copy, but is dangerous if put to action! Chimps can as easily decide you are the alien and attack you jointly. Afghans do it - I and My Brother Against My Cousin. Chimps can too.

    Replies: @epebble, @Reg Cæsar

    Please don’t try this.

    Please do, Mr Taylor.

    Conquering India and Jamaica led to Kamala Harris, who was spotted at a Larry Elder rally in Steve’s neck of the brush:

    • Replies: @RichardTaylor
    @Reg Cæsar

    Conquering can lead to many things. But what we can't do is live in a fantasy world that says, in effect, if we never conquered anything, then angels would come down and give out free love because they'd be so proud of us for being "good".

    There are no angels. Whatever happens on this planet is determined by us, period. Plenty of tribes failed to conquer anything. And they have long since gone extinct. They weren't rewarded for "good" behavior.

    Every animal has to secure and defend territory.

  112. @Reg Cæsar
    @epebble


    Please don’t try this.
     
    Please do, Mr Taylor.


    Conquering India and Jamaica led to Kamala Harris, who was spotted at a Larry Elder rally in Steve's neck of the brush:



    https://pjmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Screen-Shot-2021-09-10-at-5.42.31-PM-730x0.png

    Replies: @RichardTaylor

    Conquering can lead to many things. But what we can’t do is live in a fantasy world that says, in effect, if we never conquered anything, then angels would come down and give out free love because they’d be so proud of us for being “good”.

    There are no angels. Whatever happens on this planet is determined by us, period. Plenty of tribes failed to conquer anything. And they have long since gone extinct. They weren’t rewarded for “good” behavior.

    Every animal has to secure and defend territory.

  113. @RichardTaylor

    No statesmen ought to injure other countries in order to benefit his own country.
     
    So we should have never conquered North America? If you believe that, you should leave. Actually, I can't think of a country that wasn't built by conquest.

    Replies: @Svevlad, @Henry's Cat, @Citizen of a Silly Country, @AndrewR, @Peter Akuleyev, @JMcG, @Jonathan Mason, @Jack Armstrong, @Prester John, @Colin Wright, @Reg Cæsar, @Deep Thought

    Actually, I can’t think of a country that wasn’t built by conquest.

    True! But then if you have 5– instead of the normal 2– eyes, your extra 3 eyes will see other people’s conquests, or merely assimilations, as blasphemy– all the while claiming that your own conquests, and racial genocides, are virtues done on behalf of your white Dog (oops! I meant “white God”).

  114. @epebble
    @epebble

    An interesting story of two "Afghans":


    Brokering exit from Afghanistan, U.S. envoy Khalilzad became face of diplomatic debacle

    https://www.reuters.com/world/us/brokering-exit-afghanistan-us-envoy-khalilzad-became-face-diplomatic-debacle-2021-09-10/
     
    Reading between lines, I sense a possible case of (cultural) (mis)communication.

    This is how I think the sequence might have played out.

    1. Trump wanted to "End the war in Afghanistan" and "Bring home all troops".
    2. State department searched for a diplomat who can engage with Taliban and negotiate an end.
    3. State picked Khalilzad as an old Afghan hand.
    4. White House then cutoff State and DoD and directly started giving instructions to Khalilzad
    5. Khalilzad was ordered by Trump/White House to: "End the war in Afghanistan" and "Bring home all troops".
    6. Khalilzad says "Yes Sir" and takes it as an order/command.
    7. Khalilzad goes to Doha, Qatar and meets Taliban's Baradar.
    8. Baradar asks Khalilzad (May be in Pashto?) the purpose of visit.
    9. Khalilzad says (May be in Pashto?) "End the war in Afghanistan" and "Bring home all troops".
    10. Baradar says: We can work it out.
    11. Baradar says: we can do it like this and gives Khalilzad the Doha Agreement.
    12. Khalilzad reads that and finds it satisfies the objectives: "End the war in Afghanistan" and "Bring home all troops".
    13. Khalilzad agrees to the Doha Agreement.

    https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Signed-Agreement-02292020.pdf

    The interesting part is, the Doha Agreement is a Surrender Document. In the enthusiasm that it fulfills Trump/Whitehouse objectives, Khalilzad does not appear to have considered the interests of United States. So, either consciously or unconsciously, he interpreted "End the war in Afghanistan" and "Bring home all troops" to mean "End the war in Afghanistan" and "Bring home all troops" At Any Cost.

    Replies: @J.Ross

    So the Taliban wrote the part about killing Taliban fighters if they moved across certain lines, and then violated their own rule in order to die? Was that like testing us, or demonstrating the solidity of their training? What is depleted uranium compared to the Shahiyd who voluntarily impales himself on it? Your model sounds very valuable generally going forward, as more and more of the fate of America is in the hands of Vindmans, Murthies and Wens who do not care about it, but this sounds like a late damage control effort. Similarly, some news outlers have floated a rebranding attempt: Trump’s Vaccine. Trump’s Vaccine was, according to Democrats, positively dangerous when it was new, and a non-story when it was successful by then-current metrics, and then it was Biden’s Effort, and now it’s back to being Trump’s Vaccine.

  115. @joe862
    @Prester John

    "First Nations" = last illiterates. They were there when literates arrived, we maybe eventually could figure out if they'd been there closer to a year or a thousand. Without a written history you really don't know.

    Replies: @AndrewR, @Colin Wright

    ‘“First Nations” = last illiterates. They were there when literates arrived, we maybe eventually could figure out if they’d been there closer to a year or a thousand. Without a written history you really don’t know.’

    This will happen even with writing. Britons in Nineteenth Century India used to joke that ‘from time immemorial’ meant ‘more than a hundred years old.’

    In general, people move around more than one would think. Absent evidence to the contrary, one probably should assume that any Paleolithic or even early Neolithic group hasn’t been wherever you find them more than two or three hundred years. Naturally, people may wash up in some mountain valley or whatever and just dig in, but as a rule…

    It’s interesting to reflect that actually, this process is going on right now. We feel obliged to not object — but in general, Rohingya to Bangladesh, Syrians to Turkey, Guatemalans to the United States, and Nigerians to London represent exactly what will happen and keep happening if we let it.

    People won’t just sit there. If there’s nothing to stop them, and the grass looks greener on the other side of the fence, they’ll go — and I submit they always have.

  116. Taliban wrote the part about killing Taliban fighters if they moved across certain lines, and then violated their own rule in order to die?

    There is no such thing in the Doha Agreement. All the Taliban agreed to do was a promise to not attack, U.S. forces and allies during the Withdrawal period. After that, they made a general promise not to allow their territory to be used to bring harm to U.S. or allies. That is it. Everything else was a list of asks that U.S. has to do. It is transparently the most one sided document anyone can write. The only thing the Taliban did not ask was War Reparations.

  117. AUKUS forms the best example of “Concentric circles of loyalty.”

    The French, who really belong to the 4-eye race, are delusional. Why do they expect themselves treated equally by the 5-eye race?

    They are not alone. The Indians (and the japs, etc), who belong to the 3-eye races, also saw themselves being treated badly with regard to the supply Covid vaccines, and vaccine making materials quite recently. And more:

    https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/politics/article/3149446/aukus-fallout-years-us-told-india-it-couldnt-share-nuclear?module=lead_hero_story&pgtype=homepage

    The 2-eye race peoples– the Chinese, Russians, etc– are realistic and expect that the knife can turn against them at any time and therefore make preparations for that contingency.

    The 1-eye race peoples (e.g. the SE Asians) might be co-opted into murrika’s suppression, and oppression, of the Chinese when they are useful for that purpose. Otherwise, they could be promptly agent-oranged…

    The no-eye races might be wanted when 5-eyers need someone for slaves (e.g. the Africans) or want to shoot (or bomb) someone for sport, e.g.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/17/us-airstrike-in-kabul-last-month-killed-10-civilians-including-seven-children-pentagon-says.html

    I still can’t decide where the Jews might fall into!

    Did the white Christian god make the world this way?

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