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From the New York Times news section:

Los Angeles City Council President Steps Down After Racist Comments

In a meeting last year, Nury Martinez mocked Indigenous immigrants and the Black child of a fellow council member.

If they are “Indigenous,” then how are they “immigrants?”

She will remain on the council but relinquished her leadership role.

By Jill Cowan and Shawn Hubler
Published Oct. 9, 2022

LOS ANGELES — The president of the Los Angeles City Council stepped down from her powerful leadership role on Monday after a leaked audio recording revealed racist and disparaging remarks that she had made about the Black child of a white fellow council member and about Indigenous immigrants in the city’s Koreatown neighborhood. …

Note that the oxymoron “Indigenous immigrants” is in the New York Times, which normally employs diligent copy editors. Apparently, that’s NYT policy for how to refer to immigrants who are Mexican Indians, which shows how little the NYT would like its readers to think about Mexican Indian immigrants.

In general, white liberal Americans don’t have a vocabulary for referring to the components of Mexico’s racial spectrum. For example, the term “mestizo” is extremely useful to Mexicans, but it strikes NYT subscribers as a racial slur.

The comments, which Ms. Martinez made last year during a meeting with two other council members and a labor official [on redistricting], exposed longstanding racial tensions in the governance of one of the nation’s most multicultural cities, as well as fault lines among the city’s Democrats. Calls continued on Monday for her to resign from the council entirely.

… Ms. Martinez, who is Latina, compared the Black child of a white council member to a “changuito,” Spanish for little monkey. She also called Oaxacan immigrants living in Koreatown “short little dark people.”

Ms. Martinez is fairly blanca herself.

It was unclear who leaked the recording of Ms. Martinez’s October 2021 meeting with Gil Cedillo and Kevin de León, council members representing parts of the city’s East Side, and Ron Herrera, president of the Los Angeles County Federation of Labor. It was also unclear who had made the recording …

During the meeting, the four officials were strategizing about political redistricting in advance of this year’s election. Mr. Herrera can be heard telling the group that “my goal is to get the three of you elected, and I’m just focused on that — we’re like a little Latino caucus of our own.”

… The conversation focused on those heated negotiations and on the distribution among the 15 council districts of economic and municipal “assets” such as stadiums, universities and airports. …

In the audio, the group echoed long-held complaints about representation in the city, where Latinos make up about half of the population but hold only about a third of the seats on the council. Ms. Martinez complained that the commission had recommended moving key assets, such as the Van Nuys airport, out of her district while claiming to back broader representation for Latinos.

… “If you’re going to talk about Latino districts, what kind of districts are you trying to create?” she asked her colleagues. “Because you’re taking away our assets. You’re just going to create poor Latino districts with nothing?”

I’m a little vague on the political economy of having assets in your council district. I’m guessing that if, say, the Van Nuys private plane airport is in your district, you will tend to get donations from business interests that want your support for airport-related projects, and you can help direct donations to your partners in your coalition to pass legislation that the airport business interests don’t care about. Or something like that.

Ms. Martinez, who is not up for re-election until 2024, added that Nithya Raman, a council member of South Asian descent, should not represent Koreatown, which is now largely Latino.

Ms. Martinez isn’t impressed with Koreatown’s Latinos, but still they are Latinos, so a South Asian shouldn’t get to represent them. (I think that’s the interpretation.) From Wikipedia:

In the course of the discussion on redistricting, she commented, “I see a lot of little short dark people there” in reference to Koreatown. “Oaxacan Koreans. Not even like Kevin. Little ones,” Cedillo replied. She then continued, “I was like, I don’t know what village they came from, how they got here, but whatever.” She can also be heard to remark, “tan feos” or “they’re so ugly” in Spanish.

Back to the NYT’s account:

Ms. Martinez also weighed in on a dispute between two Black council members over whose district would include Exposition Park and the University of Southern California. Rather than fight among themselves, Ms. Martinez said, they should demand a map in which one of them gets the massive Los Angeles International Airport. That asset, she noted, is in the district of a white council member, Mike Bonin, whom she referred to with a vulgarity.

Bonin is a gay white progressive who adopted a black child, as seen in this clip:

Apparently, Martinez hates the gay white liberal more than she hates the black council persons, because she’d like to see the crown jewel, LAX, go to a black politician as long as it’s taken away from Bonin. The black politicians are only doing what comes naturally, but the white guy who sides with blacks is weird.

In the ensuing exchange, Mr. de León referred to Mr. Bonin, a West Los Angeles liberal, as the council’s “fourth Black member” and joked with Ms. Martinez that Mr. Bonin carried his adopted son, who is Black, as if the toddler were a designer handbag. Ms. Martinez complained that on a parade float on Martin Luther King Jr. Day, Mr. Bonin had failed to control his son and said that the child’s antics had nearly tipped the float over.

That may be hyperbole.

“They’re raising him like a little white kid,” Ms. Martinez said on the recording.

I.e., not spanking him.

“I was like, this kid needs a beatdown. Let me take him around the corner, and then I’ll bring him back.”

She also cursed George Gascón, the Los Angeles County district attorney, saying that “he’s with the Blacks.”

Uh, yeah …

News of the audio ricocheted around Los Angeles on Sunday, eliciting shock and fury but also acknowledgment of the complexity of race relations in the sprawling city. The furor extended to the city’s increasingly tight race for mayor between Rick Caruso, a white billionaire developer and police commissioner endorsed by Mr. Cedillo, and Representative Karen Bass, who is Black and was endorsed by Ms. Martinez.

Caruso builds the most popular malls in Southern California, like The Grove in West Hollywood. He’s really good at his job. The looting of his Grove during the Mostly Peaceful Protests may have pushed him to run for mayor.

On Sunday, both candidates condemned the statements made on the tape. On Monday, after Ms. Martinez’s resignation as president, Mr. Caruso and then Ms. Bass joined calls for the council members to step down.

… Latinos are by far the largest demographic among the city’s 3.8 million residents. But the Black community in Los Angeles — with 20 percent of the Council seats and powerful civic leaders dating back to Mayor Tom Bradley — has long wielded greater clout than would be suggested by its 8.8 percent of the population. And the Asian community has become a rising political force with nearly 12 percent of the population. White Angelenos, with more than 28 percent of the population, have long controlled much of the city’s wealth and power.

C’mon, people, keep your eyes on the prize: equity! White people’s equity!

Residents of the city routinely tout their diversity as an asset, and, since the 1992 riots, have expressed pride in the strides they have made in race relations. In polls, Latino residents of the city repeatedly say that their Black neighbors understand them better than do any other ethnic group in Los Angeles, and vice versa, said Fernando Guerra, whose Center for the Study of Los Angeles at Loyola Marymount University regularly surveys the city’s residents.

Saying you understand the other race might not mean what Professor Guerra thinks it means.

… In drawing a fair map, the Council “had to talk about race,” Mr. Guerra said. “Although not like this.”

In a searing joint statement on Sunday, Mr. Bonin and his husband, Sean Arian, said that they were “appalled, angry and absolutely disgusted” by Ms. Martinez’s comments and called on her, Mr. de León and Mr. Herrera to resign from their positions. The couple added that “it hurts that one of our son’s earliest encounters with overt racism comes from some of the most powerful public officials in Los Angeles.”

In condemning the entire conversation, Mr. Bonin and Mr. Arian said that it showed a troubling level of coordination in an effort to “weaken Black political representation.”

But blacks have more than two times times as many seats on the City Council (3 out of 15) as their share of the residents (but not their share of citizens or voters) would suggest. Why shouldn’t Hispanic politicians conspire to take representation away from over-represented blacks, other than that blacks are higher up the totem pole of Wokeness than are Hispanics?

In summary, Diverse America’s future will be full of interest.

 
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  1. Can’t they all just get along?

    • Replies: @Richard B
    @JimDandy


    Can’t they all just get along?
     
    Nope!
    And I doubt I'm the only one who isn't surprised, disappointed, or concerned about it.

    What's interesting is the convergence between two Sailerisms.
    1. The coalition of the fringes being held together by the crazy glue of antiwhite hatred.
    2. Invite-Invade-In Debt to the World foreign, domestic and economic policies as the foundation of the hostile elite's power.

    For me the Invite part is about inviting POC Americans to indulge in antiwhite hatred (and violence) as well as inviting POC Immigrants to come to the US to join POC Americans in all the antiwhite fun (anyone doubt it's fun for them?).

    Now that's what you call burning the candle from, well, more than two ends. Anyway, you get the idea. There's no more wax in the candle.

    What's full of interest is that the above convergence and the system of ethics that comes from it will end in a Pyrrhic Victory for the hostile elite. Then again, it was always going to end like this for them. And that is arguably the only bright spot in all of this.

    , @American Citizen
    @JimDandy

    Circular firing squad.

    "My virtue signaling is stronger than yours" takes the place of the bullet.

  2. News of the audio ricocheted around Los Angeles on Sunday, eliciting shock and fury but also acknowledgment of the complexity of race relations in the sprawling city.

    Racist whites are literally Hitler! Literally Hitler!
    Racist mexicans are, well…complex.

    • LOL: Twinkie
    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @rebel yell


    Racist whites are literally Hitler! Literally Hitler!
    Racist mexicans are, well…complex.
     
    What about racist blacks?

    Blacks can’t be racist. Such a suggestion itself is racist. How dare you!
    , @Paul Jolliffe
    @rebel yell

    Rebel Yell,

    You beat me to it. “Complicated” is the new code word.

    From yesterday’s AP story about the horrific drive-by shooting in Iowa, all Latin gang related:

    https://apnews.com/article/gun-violence-crime-shootings-education-iowa-c92b378b7a9b4f32c695ec2861fc1d27

    , @Prester John
    @rebel yell

    "ricocheted"

    A popular word in parts of LaLa. And Southside Chicago.

  3. Anonymous[259] • Disclaimer says:

    Ms. Martinez is fairly blanca herself

    Wtf? This isn’t the first time you’ve said such a thing.

    Anyway the constant use of the word “little” in the recorded statements by these Hispanics is telling, because Hispanics are the most dimunitive ethnic group in America. It’s clear to me that this bullshit is driven by the massive inferiority complex that Mexicans have, which is why they have an extremely deleterious effect on any social institution that they contaminate.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    @Anonymous

    'Anyway the constant use of the word “little” in the recorded statements by these Hispanics is telling, because Hispanics are the most dimunitive ethnic group in America. It’s clear to me that this bullshit is driven by the massive inferiority complex that Mexicans have, which is why they have an extremely deleterious effect on any social institution that they contaminate.'

    Oh I dunno. Mexicans are okay -- if not great.

    I just don't want more of them.

    , @Dennis Dale
    @Anonymous

    She's not bad looking, with caucasoid features.

    Mexicans don't have a "massive inferiority complex" (like whites), but they do resent white intelligence and, probably, looks. Though this is nowhere near as evident as, say, the general disdain and resentment Blacks! have for everyone else. Still, Mexicans mix well enough with white people absent the current dysfunction in America.

    Mexican attitudes toward Blacks! are distinctly superior. And they aren't afraid to fight. Just sayin'

    They don't have to be shitty little gremlins for us to oppose being replaced by them.

  4. Diversity is our Strength! Ooops…

  5. “In a searing joint statement on Sunday, Mr. Bonin and his husband, Sean Arian, said that they were “appalled, angry and absolutely disgusted””

    “His husband.” I know it’s been a thing for some time now, but it’s still jarring to hear those words together. I know there are many other iSteve-y subjects in this article, but somehow the combination of these words makes me “appalled, angry, and absolutely disgusted.”

    • Agree: Twinkie, AndrewR
    • Replies: @JR Ewing
    @FozzieT

    I aways find it jarring, mainly because - by definition - only a wife can have a husband.

    Gay dudes could just as easily say "spouse" but that takes away the enjoyment of giving the bird to society and human civilization.

    Replies: @VivaLaMigra

    , @Rob McX
    @FozzieT

    Just to add a further bizarre twist: From Wikipedia: "Bonin is Catholic, a member of St. Monica Catholic Church in Santa Monica".

    Replies: @Alden

  6. Mr. Bonin carried his adopted son, who is Black, as if the toddler were a designer handbag

    It’s funny because it’s true. It’s also funny (in a different way) how in modern America one gets points for being dishonest.

    • Replies: @AnotherDad
    @ScarletNumber



    Mr. Bonin carried his adopted son, who is Black, as if the toddler were a designer handbag
     
    It’s funny because it’s true. It’s also funny (in a different way) how in modern America one gets points for being dishonest.
     
    Exactly. She's obviously spot on here. Few things are quite as pathetic as these homosexuals and their phony "marriages". And then this one has obviously adopted a black kid as massive I-so-progressive virtue signal. Which--she's right--this turd will have no idea how to raise. "Designer handbag" is spot on.

    The whole thing is offensive, but in America we're suppose to nod and smile at this behavior, and this Bonin clown can flounce around calling for dismissal of someone pointing out his disgusting behavior.

    Replies: @guest007

  7. Bonin is a gay white progressive who recently adopted a black child.

    Brüno (2009) – Talk Show Scene – ‘Today with Richard Bey’ [HD]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Br%C3%BCno

    • LOL: Malcolm X-Lax
    • Replies: @MEH 0910
    @MEH 0910

    https://twitter.com/mikebonin/status/1579553123999571968

    Brüno (3/10) Movie CLIP - Mexican Chair People (2009) HD
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc3H4UkkZgk


    Paula Abdul meets with Bruno (Sacha Baron Cohen) for an interview while sitting on some living furniture.
     
    https://twitter.com/mikebonin/status/1579640350473605120

    Replies: @duncsbaby

    , @Wokechoke
    @MEH 0910

    That's exactly what I was thinking. He's triangulating his Austrianess there.

    , @Malcolm X-Lax
    @MEH 0910

    You beat me to it, mf'er. I was just scanning to see if anyone posted this.

    Replies: @zoos

    , @Steve Sailer
    @MEH 0910

    Thanks.

    , @Almost Missouri
    @MEH 0910

    It's striking how with a clip like this, you might be able to get even a liberal to see that maybe there is something wrong with homosexual adoption, yet if the child were white or Asian, would they still see it?

    Replies: @JR Ewing

    , @International Jew
    @MEH 0910

    Ok, we need a LOL² button for that.

  8. I’d heard something about the controversy, but now reading the details, the story seems hugely overblown.

    I’d assumed that the Council members had been throwing around vicious racial slurs, but it sounds like they were merely talking candidly in private like you’d expect local politicians to do, or most other hard-boiled people for that matter. Would a tape recording of the private conversations of police officers or fire fighters or construction workers be any different? I’d bet that even many university faculty lounges would sometimes have this sort of conversation. If everyone is a thought criminal then no one is a thought-criminal.

    Similarly, the “secret tapes” of President Richard Nixon mostly had him talking in private the way most other politicians talked, but the media presented it as being horrific.

    Obviously, these days people can easily get purged for just speaking plainly in private. But it sounds like none of the Council members are planning to resign, so maybe the whole thing will fade away.

    I’d bet that in lots of cities the private conversations would involve plans for massive corruption and bribery rather than this sort of ordinary political horse-trading.

    • Replies: @ic1000
    @Ron Unz

    > I’d bet that even many university faculty lounges would sometimes have this sort of conversation.

    Disagree. Nobody who has scrabbled up to Assistant Professor or higher would violate their sacred Diversity Statement by having this sort of conversation in the faculty lounge, where it might be overheard or, as we can see, recorded.

    When thoughts are secretively whispered in a sauna or in the middle of a swimming pool, is it really a "conversation"?

    Replies: @Bill Jones

    , @R.G. Camara
    @Ron Unz

    Selective outrage/selective prosecution is the key. It has to be an organized, concerted effort to drum up false outrage, like a high school girl using an out of context joke to purge a popular girl from her position in the clique. A true conspiracy.

    Nixon's statements on the tapes weren't bad, but the media types pretended to get all the vapors about them, because they hated Nixon. Just as with here, the reporters hear this crap all the time from these LA Council folks, but someone wanted her out, so organized a bunch of reporters to pretend to be outraged and make a bigger deal of it. Or with Trump, where his every action was met with perpetual screeching, even when Obama or Hilary or W. or someone before him had done the exact same.

    Shades of Casablanca: "I am shocked, shocked, to find that gambling is going on here."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjbPi00k_ME

    So, if you care about this, the question is: who wanted this chick out, why, and how much did it cost them? It's a conspiracy for political power. So who ran the conspiracy, who was in on it, and who's just a useful idiot following along? Watch who gets rewarded the most.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Anonymous, @Prester John

    , @animalogic
    @Ron Unz

    Sorry, but this conversation is indicative of structural corruption.
    Politicians should never be in charge voting redistribution.
    Such matters should be settled by a nonpolitical administrative body, based upon strict rules & demographic facts.

    Replies: @Curle

    , @Muggles
    @Ron Unz


    I’d heard something about the controversy, but now reading the details, the story seems hugely overblown.
     
    Mr. Unz, why is this particular story "overblown"? Because it doesn't involve White politicians speaking honestly about their feelings towards others?

    White politicians would be ridden out of town on a rail (as they used to do), not merely subject to eye popping bad publicity.

    Sure, politicos elsewhere caught on candid conversations might also be discussing bribes, kickbacks and dirty tricks, but this hardly "whitewashes" what the sacred Latina said here. She is openly racist about anyone not looking like her race (though Hispanic is a mongrel "race", not an actual one).

    When you internalize the double standard for hypocrisy then you lose. Are Whites the only people who are held to the highest standards? All others, ho-hum, it's impolite to notice?

    No, Ms. Latinx Council President wasn't plotting murder, okay. Bad mouthing a White gay (okay, maybe correct on the details but still..) and blacks and Koreans. Who did she leave out?

    Yes, and the boodle from LAX must be given to her brown pals. This is the California where hearing of this is mere "overblown" gossip, no big deal.

    Mr. Unz needs to leave California pronto....

    Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic, @Bragadocious

    , @Jim Bob Lassiter
    @Ron Unz

    "Would a tape recording of the private conversations of police officers or fire fighters or construction workers be any different?"

    Channeling my best Jack Nicholson here:

    You're Goddamned right such recordings would be different MISTER Unz. All of those "little people" would be fired and most rendered unemployable in their chosen profession. There would be crowds of BLM or whatever type protestors along with TV news crews clogging the residential streets of their neighborhoods at 7 AM as their kids were leaving for school. You need to review your standards.

  9. What matters is that any White with two brain cells can see what the Mexicans have in mind for us. The Great Replacement in action.

    • Replies: @in the middle
    @Graveldips

    see what the Mexicans.

    Funny, those people are not Mexicans, as far as I see, Mexican government people are south of the border. They are just like you, Americans . Wish people start seeing All Americans as themselves. The powers that be, have created divisions all over, calling asians, latins, mexicans, etc. We don t hear, Germans, Italians, English, Irish, french, Russians, Kazhars, etc., but they are called 'white'. So I guess whites don't have ancestry, or they just appeared out of no where in the USA, and were categorized into just 'white'. I wonder... Oh, and whites are only in two countries in North America, ignoring that the whitest nation in the Americas, is, wait for it, wait for it, not the USA, but Argentina!

    Replies: @bomag, @Graveldips

  10. @MEH 0910

    Bonin is a gay white progressive who recently adopted a black child.
     
    Brüno (2009) - Talk Show Scene - 'Today with Richard Bey' [HD]
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbA6X2Vdx5A

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Br%C3%BCno

    Replies: @MEH 0910, @Wokechoke, @Malcolm X-Lax, @Steve Sailer, @Almost Missouri, @International Jew

    Brüno (3/10) Movie CLIP – Mexican Chair People (2009) HD

    Paula Abdul meets with Bruno (Sacha Baron Cohen) for an interview while sitting on some living furniture.

    • Replies: @duncsbaby
    @MEH 0910

    Mike Bonin must be over the moon w/joy knowing he's an oppressed minority in this immoral play. I dare say he's gotten a few bonins just thinking about his now sacred status.

  11. @Ron Unz
    I'd heard something about the controversy, but now reading the details, the story seems hugely overblown.

    I'd assumed that the Council members had been throwing around vicious racial slurs, but it sounds like they were merely talking candidly in private like you'd expect local politicians to do, or most other hard-boiled people for that matter. Would a tape recording of the private conversations of police officers or fire fighters or construction workers be any different? I'd bet that even many university faculty lounges would sometimes have this sort of conversation. If everyone is a thought criminal then no one is a thought-criminal.

    Similarly, the "secret tapes" of President Richard Nixon mostly had him talking in private the way most other politicians talked, but the media presented it as being horrific.

    Obviously, these days people can easily get purged for just speaking plainly in private. But it sounds like none of the Council members are planning to resign, so maybe the whole thing will fade away.

    I'd bet that in lots of cities the private conversations would involve plans for massive corruption and bribery rather than this sort of ordinary political horse-trading.

    Replies: @ic1000, @R.G. Camara, @animalogic, @Muggles, @Jim Bob Lassiter

    > I’d bet that even many university faculty lounges would sometimes have this sort of conversation.

    Disagree. Nobody who has scrabbled up to Assistant Professor or higher would violate their sacred Diversity Statement by having this sort of conversation in the faculty lounge, where it might be overheard or, as we can see, recorded.

    When thoughts are secretively whispered in a sauna or in the middle of a swimming pool, is it really a “conversation”?

    • Agree: Malcolm X-Lax
    • Disagree: Corvinus
    • Replies: @Bill Jones
    @ic1000


    When thoughts are secretively whispered in a sauna or in the middle of a swimming pool, is it really a “conversation”?
     
    Sauna or Swimming pool?
    Doesn't Bathhouse Bonin get to converse?
    Or perhaps he was brought up not to speak with his mouth full.?
  12. these people will definitely be able to increase California electricity production and distribution by 30%. the electric vehicle future is in good hands. they work so well together. they get stuff done.

  13. Has PayPal announced how many incidents Councilwoman Martinez has committed? At $2,500 each, this could get expensive!

  14. @MEH 0910

    Bonin is a gay white progressive who recently adopted a black child.
     
    Brüno (2009) - Talk Show Scene - 'Today with Richard Bey' [HD]
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbA6X2Vdx5A

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Br%C3%BCno

    Replies: @MEH 0910, @Wokechoke, @Malcolm X-Lax, @Steve Sailer, @Almost Missouri, @International Jew

    That’s exactly what I was thinking. He’s triangulating his Austrianess there.

  15. @MEH 0910

    Bonin is a gay white progressive who recently adopted a black child.
     
    Brüno (2009) - Talk Show Scene - 'Today with Richard Bey' [HD]
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbA6X2Vdx5A

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Br%C3%BCno

    Replies: @MEH 0910, @Wokechoke, @Malcolm X-Lax, @Steve Sailer, @Almost Missouri, @International Jew

    You beat me to it, mf’er. I was just scanning to see if anyone posted this.

    • Replies: @zoos
    @Malcolm X-Lax

    You forgot about Andy Kaufman's kids…

    https://youtu.be/9u5NoLi0XRc

    https://youtu.be/NlvJ5Rj_tNM

    Replies: @Malcolm X-Lax

  16. Sailer made this?

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Anonymous


    Sailer made this?
     
    Someone made this:


    https://youtu.be/cQ736TemkNA
  17. Ms. Martinez, who is Latina, compared the Black child of a white council member to a “changuito,” Spanish for little monkey. She also called Oaxacan immigrants living in Koreatown “short little dark people.”

    I’m starting to like our Castizo-Futurist American Empire! I wonder what her iSteve handle is.

    • Agree: Almost Missouri
    • LOL: Renard
    • Replies: @Dream
    @The Anti-Gnostic

    A castizo futurist America would have an Indian, East Asian and Arab overclass in addition to the existing Jewish elite. If you ranked the larger races of humanity by intellgence, cunning and ambitiousness, then European-Amerindian hybrids would come second last.

    , @Jack P
    @The Anti-Gnostic

    I agree. I could be ok with this woman in leadership. I hope none of these Latinos resigns. And nobody should ever, ever accept punishment for what was said in a private conversation.

    , @Dmon
    @The Anti-Gnostic

    Is it too late to get her on the ballot for Governor? And to round out the ticket, a guy who could show her how it's done. The greatest Lt. Governor in California History - Cruz Bustamente.

    https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2001/02/racial-correctness/

    "On February 13, in a speech to a group of black trade unionists, Bustamante was reciting a list of African-American labor organizations established in the early 1900s, many of which included the word “Negro” in their titles. While uttering one of those names, Bustamante let slip the word “------” instead of ‘negro.’ A handful of blacks in the audience stormed out in protest, and Bustamante has been apologizing up and down the state ever since.

    A legion of black and Latino officials rushed to the defense of Bustamante, the state’s first Latino lieutenant governor, citing his excellent record on affirmative action and relations with the African American community..."

    , @William Badwhite
    @The Anti-Gnostic


    I’m starting to like our Castizo-Futurist American Empire! I wonder what her iSteve handle is.
     
    She should run for President! "F*&k him, he's with the blacks" could be the new MAGA.
  18. @Ron Unz
    I'd heard something about the controversy, but now reading the details, the story seems hugely overblown.

    I'd assumed that the Council members had been throwing around vicious racial slurs, but it sounds like they were merely talking candidly in private like you'd expect local politicians to do, or most other hard-boiled people for that matter. Would a tape recording of the private conversations of police officers or fire fighters or construction workers be any different? I'd bet that even many university faculty lounges would sometimes have this sort of conversation. If everyone is a thought criminal then no one is a thought-criminal.

    Similarly, the "secret tapes" of President Richard Nixon mostly had him talking in private the way most other politicians talked, but the media presented it as being horrific.

    Obviously, these days people can easily get purged for just speaking plainly in private. But it sounds like none of the Council members are planning to resign, so maybe the whole thing will fade away.

    I'd bet that in lots of cities the private conversations would involve plans for massive corruption and bribery rather than this sort of ordinary political horse-trading.

    Replies: @ic1000, @R.G. Camara, @animalogic, @Muggles, @Jim Bob Lassiter

    Selective outrage/selective prosecution is the key. It has to be an organized, concerted effort to drum up false outrage, like a high school girl using an out of context joke to purge a popular girl from her position in the clique. A true conspiracy.

    Nixon’s statements on the tapes weren’t bad, but the media types pretended to get all the vapors about them, because they hated Nixon. Just as with here, the reporters hear this crap all the time from these LA Council folks, but someone wanted her out, so organized a bunch of reporters to pretend to be outraged and make a bigger deal of it. Or with Trump, where his every action was met with perpetual screeching, even when Obama or Hilary or W. or someone before him had done the exact same.

    Shades of Casablanca: “I am shocked, shocked, to find that gambling is going on here.”

    So, if you care about this, the question is: who wanted this chick out, why, and how much did it cost them? It’s a conspiracy for political power. So who ran the conspiracy, who was in on it, and who’s just a useful idiot following along? Watch who gets rewarded the most.

    • Agree: Ron Unz
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @R.G. Camara

    Politicians conspire against each other?

    Who knew?

    Replies: @R.G. Camara, @Corvinus

    , @Anonymous
    @R.G. Camara


    Nixon’s statements on the tapes weren’t bad, but the media types pretended to get all the vapors about them, because they hated Nixon.
     
    The tapes were bad because of two things. In them, Nixon leveled criticism against Jews. Also, in some of his remarks one could hear expressed implicitly a sense of a core American identity. They hated him because of these two things. They got the vapors because of these two things.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

    , @Prester John
    @R.G. Camara

    The same reasoning applies to Trump. Trump's gravest, most mortal of Mortal Sins, was to cross swords with the so-called "political establishment." In this country (as in most so-called "democracies") one does so at one's peril. And Trump is experiencing the consequences.

    In the end, it's all about power. The only question is: Who will wield it?

    Replies: @Malla

  19. OT — It is being claimed that there are huge protests all over Europe over the boomerang sanctions and NATO adventurism; the lyingpress isn’t reporting on it.

    [MORE]

    • Replies: @Curle
    @J.Ross

    Wow, those people really hate OUR DEMOCRACY don’t they?

  20. In the changuitos v. tan-feos matchup, my money is on the tan-feos.

  21. Indigenous immigrants

    Extraordinary.

    The self-contradiction, the capitalization—it’s perfect.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Sparkling Wiggle

    Thanks, I'll use that.

    , @Raki Rakkoon
    @Sparkling Wiggle

    I think the word they're trying to avoid is Indios, which truly is a racial slur to Spanish speakers.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    , @ScarletNumber
    @Sparkling Wiggle

    I still remember the meme that inspired your username.

  22. @The Anti-Gnostic

    Ms. Martinez, who is Latina, compared the Black child of a white council member to a “changuito,” Spanish for little monkey. She also called Oaxacan immigrants living in Koreatown “short little dark people.”
     
    I'm starting to like our Castizo-Futurist American Empire! I wonder what her iSteve handle is.

    Replies: @Dream, @Jack P, @Dmon, @William Badwhite

    A castizo futurist America would have an Indian, East Asian and Arab overclass in addition to the existing Jewish elite. If you ranked the larger races of humanity by intellgence, cunning and ambitiousness, then European-Amerindian hybrids would come second last.

  23. Lots of Hispanics/Latinos/Latinx or whatever they’re called nowadays are grieving tonight. Art Laboe RIP.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @fredyetagain aka superhonky

    I remember listening to Art Laboe play doo-wop for Chicanos dedicating 1950s songs to their girlfriend while driving back from climbing Mt. Whitney in 1977. It was the only station we could pick up. I'm glad I had a chance to be exposed to this interesting phenomenon.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @MEH 0910

    , @Gary in Gramercy
    @fredyetagain aka superhonky

    His record label, true to its name, put out some original sounds:

    https://youtu.be/iZExWt-bj-k

    https://youtu.be/TN3gbgz5Av4

    Replies: @Graveldips

  24. Ha. The sixth paragraph of the LA Times article/column on the matter is this:

    That hour-long meeting, audio of which was uploaded to Reddit and reviewed by The Times, wasn’t just a forum for swapping the kind of racist remarks and “jokes” you might hear at a Trump rally.

    And the fourth paragraph is just one word, “Please.”

    Thank you, Erika D. Smith. Nury Martinez may have pissed you off, made a joke of Black and Brown Unite. But we can’t forget the real enemy, the primal cause, the ur-racist, the lower class, lower caste, lower case, little hand little w white.

    https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-10-09/latino-la-city-council-racism-fears-black-angelenos

    • Thanks: Renard
  25. Colorblind civic nationalism just can’t stop winning!

    It’s bizarre that Steve writes posts that utterly discredit his own Citizenism. It’s quite clear that in a multiracial society, race comes first in any political discussion.

    Yet, Steve insists that whites – and whites only – don’t play that game. Instead, he asks that whites lay back and think of Citizenism as we get it good and hard.

    • Agree: Lurker
    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Citizen of a Silly Country

    Instead of constantly bitching about Steve, why not spell out your own program? What would your concealed carry permit process look like, vis-a-vis race? What fee would each race pay? And, more to the point, how do we get this past the Fourteenth Amendment which, according to the Supreme Court, is the law of the land?


    Do we adopt the laws of Mississippi and Alabama Louisiana and South Carolina, where a majority of blacks can get a permit under race-blind "shall-issue"? "Constitutional carry" (now the policy in the states I crossed out, quite the opposite of just forty years ago) is even more "citizenist"-- you don't even have to file for a permit, just not have any felonies on record-- whatever your race.

    Or should we adopt the policies of much whiter countries? Britain's? Australia's?

    Again, what do we replace the race-blind laws you oppose with? And how?

    And how do we sell this to our fellow citizens? Remember, the McDonald decision, which you oppose and mock, was won for a black gun owner, and the only reason Heller wasn't as well was on a judicial technicality. Most of us cheered, but you were horrified.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Citizen of a Silly Country

    , @Anon
    @Citizen of a Silly Country

    Lee Kuan Yew figured out multicultural democracy long ago.

    , @Almost Missouri
    @Citizen of a Silly Country


    Colorblind civic nationalism
     
    has been US government policy since approximately the Civil War, and Constitutionally required since 1868 and the 14th Amendment. It even superseded the real Constitution with the advent of the [anti-]Civil Rights movement in the 1960s, following which it became a kind of social/civic religion. I'm not saying it was right or wrong, good or bad, just noting that it had a real history.

    My feeling is that it first started fraying in the 1990s when the neologism "identity politics" started to circulate. People, especially white people, sensed that "identity politics" meant identity policies, which necessarily contravened the de facto social compact of amiable equality. Increasingly embattled "colorblind civic nationalism" did get a momentary shot in the arm from 9/11, but the deterioration continued during the Bush years, for example the media using Hurricane Katrina as racial cudgel against the President.

    I would say it was the rise of Obama that really heralded the end. He played the double game of promoting select identity groups while posing as "racial healer". Naïve whites could support him for the latter, while cannier identities understood the former. In his second term, he—and the Media Industrial Complex that made him—shed the pretense and went full woke, which brings us to where we are now: colorblind civnattery hanging on by its legal fingernails while the media, culture and society are full bore anti-white.

    Historically, the law has always eventually given way to the culture, so perhaps the question is when will the official colorblind equality that started in 1868 officially, de jure, end, and how? Five years? Fifty years? By a Jumanji Jackson Supreme Court decision? By a Constitutional Amendment propounded by President Camacho's Executive Order?
  26. Honestly, even some liberal white Americans probably say similar stuff in private.

    • Thanks: ic1000
  27. Caruso builds the most popular malls in Southern California, like The Grove in West Hollywood.

    For the record, The Grove is not in West Hollywood. It’s in one of those areas that doesn’t have a very definite neighborhood designation, sort on in-between The Miracle Mile and The Fairfax District.

  28. …a leaked audio recording revealed racist and disparaging remarks that she had made about the Black child of a white fellow council member and about Indigenous immigrants in the city’s Koreatown neighborhood…

    It’s good of you, Steve, to keep us informed about New York Times writing style. Now I know (a) the term “Indigenous” deserves “reverent capitalization” like “Black” and (b) the NYTwits don’t comprehend that “indigenous” and “immigrant” are opposites.

    • Agree: Colin Wright
  29. Speaking of things falling apart:

    A senior member of the state Duma, Russia’s parliament, said that any U.S. states that want to break away from the country and instead join the Russian Federation will be considered. –

    If Americans vote to secede some states from the country and express a desire to join Russia, Moscow will consider it, Tolmachev told Russian news site Podmoskovye Segodnya.

    Guys, I’m against this. I wouldn’t know how to handle the freedom. Or how to handle an elite class that doesn’t hate my guts.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Loyalty Over IQ Worship

    Citation?

    Replies: @Loyalty Over IQ Worship

    , @Almost Missouri
    @Loyalty Over IQ Worship

    Lol. I'd consider this for the greater freedom of speech and instant nuclear umbrella that would be instantly necessary to protect that greater freedom. But I'd worry that the Russian Duma wouldn't accept any new provinces that don't have a majority of Russians.

  30. Ron Unz certainly has a point: What was said could certainly have involved things far more tangible and been a lot worse in any number of ways. Some of the people in charge of our lives do care a lot more about other things than us, Including money and getting reelected.

    But this recording makes me uneasy and resentful, to say the least. It is clear these people and a lot more like them out there set a standard for the rest of us that they do not apply to themselves. The unappeasable Woke have a list of demands for others that is endless. They assume anybody who disagrees is a monster bigot with no morals or brains.

    The bottom line is most of the rest of us are being driven nuts by people who are worse than we are — by their own rules. We are also seeing our country overwhelmed with newcomers mostly like them, which is exactly what they want. What kind of a future does LA have with people like them in charge?

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
    @notsaying


    It is clear these people and a lot more like them out there set a standard for the rest of us that they do not apply to themselves.
     
    https://www.foxnews.com/us/la-councilwoman-caught-making-racist-comments-history-calling-america-trump-racist
    https://twitter.com/FoxNews/status/1579591107649773568

    Replies: @ic1000, @Pop Warner

    , @Anonymous
    @notsaying


    But this recording makes me uneasy and resentful, to say the least. It is clear these people and a lot more like them out there set a standard for the rest of us that they do not apply to themselves.
     
    It’s their hypocrisy that makes you uneasy? What about their apparent tribalism, when implicit in letting them in to the American polity was that they become Americans first and not be so ethnocentric?

    Replies: @notsaying

  31. ‘…the course of the discussion on redistricting, she commented, “I see a lot of little short dark people there” in reference to Koreatown. “Oaxacan Koreans. Not even like Kevin. Little ones,” Cedillo replied. She then continued, “I was like, I don’t know what village they came from, how they got here, but whatever.” She can also be heard to remark, “tan feos” or “they’re so ugly” in Spanish…’

    The awful truth comes out. Hispanics are racist.

    Who’da thought?

    • Replies: @Graveldips
    @Colin Wright

    When I taught Mexican kids, the Mexican teachers clued me in on the color barriers. In particular, about there light-skin girl cliques. Racist to the bone.

  32. @notsaying
    Ron Unz certainly has a point: What was said could certainly have involved things far more tangible and been a lot worse in any number of ways. Some of the people in charge of our lives do care a lot more about other things than us, Including money and getting reelected.

    But this recording makes me uneasy and resentful, to say the least. It is clear these people and a lot more like them out there set a standard for the rest of us that they do not apply to themselves. The unappeasable Woke have a list of demands for others that is endless. They assume anybody who disagrees is a monster bigot with no morals or brains.

    The bottom line is most of the rest of us are being driven nuts by people who are worse than we are -- by their own rules. We are also seeing our country overwhelmed with newcomers mostly like them, which is exactly what they want. What kind of a future does LA have with people like them in charge?

    Replies: @MEH 0910, @Anonymous

    It is clear these people and a lot more like them out there set a standard for the rest of us that they do not apply to themselves.

    https://www.foxnews.com/us/la-councilwoman-caught-making-racist-comments-history-calling-america-trump-racist

    • LOL: Twinkie
    • Replies: @ic1000
    @MEH 0910

    > LA councilwoman caught on tape making racist comments has history of calling America, Trump racist

    Meh, have you written the NYT's Ombudsman with a link to that tweet? He'll be sure that an Update is promptly printed, to provide that important missing context. The newspaper's subscribers will thank him, and you.

    , @Pop Warner
    @MEH 0910

    It's more reprehensible in modern America to make jokes about black people privately than to smear White people publicly.

  33. First Kanye,now this hot tamale! I love POC!
    Interesting that the W.G. ( white gay) who adopted the black boy has the name Bonin. Bone in?
    Come on.

  34. Ms. Martinez, who is Latina, compared the Black child of a white council member to a “changuito,” Spanish for little monkey.

    Is that worse than deliberately spelling “Whites” in lowercase?

    • Agree: Rob McX
  35. @Loyalty Over IQ Worship
    Speaking of things falling apart:

    A senior member of the state Duma, Russia's parliament, said that any U.S. states that want to break away from the country and instead join the Russian Federation will be considered. -

    If Americans vote to secede some states from the country and express a desire to join Russia, Moscow will consider it, Tolmachev told Russian news site Podmoskovye Segodnya.
     

    Guys, I'm against this. I wouldn't know how to handle the freedom. Or how to handle an elite class that doesn't hate my guts.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Almost Missouri

    Citation?

    • Replies: @Loyalty Over IQ Worship
    @Anonymous

    It's in a newsweek article. I'd post link but it takes forever to get approved.

    Just Google: states join russia

    It comes up first.

    Replies: @Anonymous

  36. @fredyetagain aka superhonky
    Lots of Hispanics/Latinos/Latinx or whatever they're called nowadays are grieving tonight. Art Laboe RIP.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Gary in Gramercy

    I remember listening to Art Laboe play doo-wop for Chicanos dedicating 1950s songs to their girlfriend while driving back from climbing Mt. Whitney in 1977. It was the only station we could pick up. I’m glad I had a chance to be exposed to this interesting phenomenon.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Steve Sailer

    Art Laboe broadcast a dedication to me on my birthday when I was in an overseas DoDEA high school. It played over Armed Forces Radio Pacific, as it was then called. The request wasn't called in but mailed in some time in advance, but Laboe made it happen on the right date.
    The song was "Baby Blue" by the Echoes, popular decades before I was born, but it seemed fresh and new to me. I still remember hearing that dedication over the radio and being amazed and thrilled. And I still love that song.

    https://youtu.be/20stUWUTnS0

    , @MEH 0910
    @Steve Sailer

    Gustavo Arellano:
    https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-10-12/art-laboe-influence-segregation
    https://archive.ph/g3ewg
    https://twitter.com/GustavoArellano/status/1580243054379683840

    https://twitter.com/GustavoArellano/status/1580243414099980288
    https://twitter.com/GustavoArellano/status/1580243654437806081
    https://twitter.com/GustavoArellano/status/1580256674568208384
    https://twitter.com/GustavoArellano/status/1580257592441380865
    https://twitter.com/GustavoArellano/status/1580258095019589633

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_Laboe

    https://www.unz.com/author/gustavo-arellano/

  37. @Sparkling Wiggle

    Indigenous immigrants
     
    Extraordinary.

    The self-contradiction, the capitalization—it’s perfect.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Raki Rakkoon, @ScarletNumber

    Thanks, I’ll use that.

  38. @R.G. Camara
    @Ron Unz

    Selective outrage/selective prosecution is the key. It has to be an organized, concerted effort to drum up false outrage, like a high school girl using an out of context joke to purge a popular girl from her position in the clique. A true conspiracy.

    Nixon's statements on the tapes weren't bad, but the media types pretended to get all the vapors about them, because they hated Nixon. Just as with here, the reporters hear this crap all the time from these LA Council folks, but someone wanted her out, so organized a bunch of reporters to pretend to be outraged and make a bigger deal of it. Or with Trump, where his every action was met with perpetual screeching, even when Obama or Hilary or W. or someone before him had done the exact same.

    Shades of Casablanca: "I am shocked, shocked, to find that gambling is going on here."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjbPi00k_ME

    So, if you care about this, the question is: who wanted this chick out, why, and how much did it cost them? It's a conspiracy for political power. So who ran the conspiracy, who was in on it, and who's just a useful idiot following along? Watch who gets rewarded the most.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Anonymous, @Prester John

    Politicians conspire against each other?

    Who knew?

    • Replies: @R.G. Camara
    @Steve Sailer

    Any theories on the culprit? You're the Angelino.

    , @Corvinus
    @Steve Sailer

    You really need to heed this message.

    John Robb—We are being mentally rewired by the technologies of social networking. It's an involuntary process. That mental rewiring is forcing a reorganization of society. Those changes are dangerous during the early phases (think: printing press/30-years war)…We might need to shut down Twitter to increase our potential of surviving the first half of this century. Network decision making, in its current raw form, is simply too dangerous.

    Until you NOTICE without snark and caginess the real time misinformation and disinformation efforts taking place, you are clearly contributing to it.

  39. The English language, being a truly magnificent means of expression, has a word that can be used for “indigenous immigrants.” That word would be “irredentist.”

    I guess “irredentist” has some politically inconvenient connotations, and that there’s good reason the New York Times doesn’t want it applied here.

    • Replies: @R.G. Camara
    @Nathan

    Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead: “We are tied down to a language which makes up in obscurity what it lacks in style."

    , @SIMP simp
    @Nathan

    Irredentism is literally fascism. The word and the concept come from Italy.

  40. @Anonymous
    @Loyalty Over IQ Worship

    Citation?

    Replies: @Loyalty Over IQ Worship

    It’s in a newsweek article. I’d post link but it takes forever to get approved.

    Just Google: states join russia

    It comes up first.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Loyalty Over IQ Worship

    Thank you

  41. @Steve Sailer
    @R.G. Camara

    Politicians conspire against each other?

    Who knew?

    Replies: @R.G. Camara, @Corvinus

    Any theories on the culprit? You’re the Angelino.

  42. I had the misfortune of having Mike Bonin as my representative when I lived in Venice a few years back. He was strictly a Bum’s Rights activist, or more like a Bum’s Rights fundamentalist, as the rights of bums came first and foremost in any and every situation.
    Bums next to schools, bums on every corner, bum cars parked everywhere with trash or feces trailing behind them, bums on the beaches and in the parks, and his platform never wavered: bums deserve free fancy homes by the beach, bums deserve free food and health care and free drugs and free needles, bums deserve to have the city hold and store their possessions free of charge, bums should not have to obey the law and should be let out of jail sans bail.
    He is basically a pious, preachy, malevolent Portlandia character come to life, just without the sense of humor.
    Thank God I moved.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Rupert Pupkin

    I'm sure he likes a good bum.

    , @Ralph L
    @Rupert Pupkin

    But I thought he liked the other kind of bum.

  43. Quick summary…blacks are low status in Mexico and all of Latin America, and hispanics are not going to put up with black crime in their living areas…

    • Replies: @Fred C Dobbs
    @pyrrhus

    best...........or at any rate, most realist of comments. Mexicans know the score, and have for hundreds of years. It's innate.

  44. @Colin Wright
    '...the course of the discussion on redistricting, she commented, “I see a lot of little short dark people there” in reference to Koreatown. “Oaxacan Koreans. Not even like Kevin. Little ones,” Cedillo replied. She then continued, “I was like, I don’t know what village they came from, how they got here, but whatever.” She can also be heard to remark, “tan feos” or “they’re so ugly” in Spanish...'

    The awful truth comes out. Hispanics are racist.

    Who'da thought?

    Replies: @Graveldips

    When I taught Mexican kids, the Mexican teachers clued me in on the color barriers. In particular, about there light-skin girl cliques. Racist to the bone.

  45. Anonymous[242] • Disclaimer says:
    @R.G. Camara
    @Ron Unz

    Selective outrage/selective prosecution is the key. It has to be an organized, concerted effort to drum up false outrage, like a high school girl using an out of context joke to purge a popular girl from her position in the clique. A true conspiracy.

    Nixon's statements on the tapes weren't bad, but the media types pretended to get all the vapors about them, because they hated Nixon. Just as with here, the reporters hear this crap all the time from these LA Council folks, but someone wanted her out, so organized a bunch of reporters to pretend to be outraged and make a bigger deal of it. Or with Trump, where his every action was met with perpetual screeching, even when Obama or Hilary or W. or someone before him had done the exact same.

    Shades of Casablanca: "I am shocked, shocked, to find that gambling is going on here."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjbPi00k_ME

    So, if you care about this, the question is: who wanted this chick out, why, and how much did it cost them? It's a conspiracy for political power. So who ran the conspiracy, who was in on it, and who's just a useful idiot following along? Watch who gets rewarded the most.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Anonymous, @Prester John

    Nixon’s statements on the tapes weren’t bad, but the media types pretended to get all the vapors about them, because they hated Nixon.

    The tapes were bad because of two things. In them, Nixon leveled criticism against Jews. Also, in some of his remarks one could hear expressed implicitly a sense of a core American identity. They hated him because of these two things. They got the vapors because of these two things.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @Anonymous

    What portion of the 28% white Los Angeles are Jewish? What portion are Persian or Arab or ex-Soviet Men With Gold Chains, etc., as opposed to beleaguered "core White identity"?

    Replies: @Alden, @Twinkie

  46. This is just going to get worse as the demographics of the continue to change in favor of the hispanic politicians. Inside of 20 years, they will expect to hold almost all of the seats on the city council- gerrymandering can only do so much.

  47. @Nathan
    The English language, being a truly magnificent means of expression, has a word that can be used for "indigenous immigrants." That word would be "irredentist."

    I guess "irredentist" has some politically inconvenient connotations, and that there's good reason the New York Times doesn't want it applied here.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara, @SIMP simp

    Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead: “We are tied down to a language which makes up in obscurity what it lacks in style.”

  48. @Anonymous
    Sailer made this?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PysQ46HF6Q4

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Sailer made this?

    Someone made this:

  49. Anonymous[242] • Disclaimer says:
    @notsaying
    Ron Unz certainly has a point: What was said could certainly have involved things far more tangible and been a lot worse in any number of ways. Some of the people in charge of our lives do care a lot more about other things than us, Including money and getting reelected.

    But this recording makes me uneasy and resentful, to say the least. It is clear these people and a lot more like them out there set a standard for the rest of us that they do not apply to themselves. The unappeasable Woke have a list of demands for others that is endless. They assume anybody who disagrees is a monster bigot with no morals or brains.

    The bottom line is most of the rest of us are being driven nuts by people who are worse than we are -- by their own rules. We are also seeing our country overwhelmed with newcomers mostly like them, which is exactly what they want. What kind of a future does LA have with people like them in charge?

    Replies: @MEH 0910, @Anonymous

    But this recording makes me uneasy and resentful, to say the least. It is clear these people and a lot more like them out there set a standard for the rest of us that they do not apply to themselves.

    It’s their hypocrisy that makes you uneasy? What about their apparent tribalism, when implicit in letting them in to the American polity was that they become Americans first and not be so ethnocentric?

    • Replies: @notsaying
    @Anonymous

    I sure do not like that, either.

    I want my country back. That isn't going to happen. What we can do is greatly reduce the number of newcomers. We can also stop letting people like this control us.

  50. The child she made a rude comment about was the vanity child of a fellow council member (white, of course) who is a homosexual. He and his (fake and gay) husband adopted a human being as a fashion accessory. Despite her hypocrisy and s**t-libbyness, I have a hard time really faulting her – she is at least a normal woman.

    • Agree: Kylie
    • Replies: @notsaying
    @Mr. Anon

    Maybe yes, but maybe not.

    Do you trust her judgment about this kid? I sure don't.

    Overexcited kids can be a pain in the butt but that doesn't mean there is a thing wrong with this kid. I double she approved of two guys adopting kids and doesn't like to see a black kid getting brought up "white" no matter how well they behave.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @JR Ewing, @Alden, @Kylie

  51. @Citizen of a Silly Country
    Colorblind civic nationalism just can't stop winning!

    It's bizarre that Steve writes posts that utterly discredit his own Citizenism. It's quite clear that in a multiracial society, race comes first in any political discussion.

    Yet, Steve insists that whites - and whites only - don't play that game. Instead, he asks that whites lay back and think of Citizenism as we get it good and hard.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Anon, @Almost Missouri

    Instead of constantly bitching about Steve, why not spell out your own program? What would your concealed carry permit process look like, vis-a-vis race? What fee would each race pay? And, more to the point, how do we get this past the Fourteenth Amendment which, according to the Supreme Court, is the law of the land?

    Do we adopt the laws of Mississippi and Alabama Louisiana and South Carolina, where a majority of blacks can get a permit under race-blind “shall-issue”? “Constitutional carry” (now the policy in the states I crossed out, quite the opposite of just forty years ago) is even more “citizenist”– you don’t even have to file for a permit, just not have any felonies on record– whatever your race.

    Or should we adopt the policies of much whiter countries? Britain’s? Australia’s?

    Again, what do we replace the race-blind laws you oppose with? And how?

    And how do we sell this to our fellow citizens? Remember, the McDonald decision, which you oppose and mock, was won for a black gun owner, and the only reason Heller wasn’t as well was on a judicial technicality. Most of us cheered, but you were horrified.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Reg Cæsar


    Instead of constantly bitching about Steve, why not spell out your own program?
     
    The best strategy is to promote awareness of HBD and to close the border.

    Isn’t Steve pursuing both of these things?

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    , @Citizen of a Silly Country
    @Reg Cæsar

    My program is simple. Whites of whatever various flavors start to form their own communities that do their best to gain power in the overall society and eventually to be independent as possible.

    I don't give a damn about selling that to the majority of whites, much less non-whites. Goodwhites can go to hell. Civic nationalists can live in their fantasyland and feel oh-so-morally-superior as they fail.

    You still believe in the system and that it can be reformed. You want to save the USA. I don't.

    My program has worked throughout history. Colorblind civic nationalism has never succeeded.

    Replies: @Corvinus

  52. Does Mr. Bonin have a valet to care for his designer hand bag or a male nanny?

  53. @Loyalty Over IQ Worship
    @Anonymous

    It's in a newsweek article. I'd post link but it takes forever to get approved.

    Just Google: states join russia

    It comes up first.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    Thank you

  54. @Rupert Pupkin
    I had the misfortune of having Mike Bonin as my representative when I lived in Venice a few years back. He was strictly a Bum's Rights activist, or more like a Bum's Rights fundamentalist, as the rights of bums came first and foremost in any and every situation.
    Bums next to schools, bums on every corner, bum cars parked everywhere with trash or feces trailing behind them, bums on the beaches and in the parks, and his platform never wavered: bums deserve free fancy homes by the beach, bums deserve free food and health care and free drugs and free needles, bums deserve to have the city hold and store their possessions free of charge, bums should not have to obey the law and should be let out of jail sans bail.
    He is basically a pious, preachy, malevolent Portlandia character come to life, just without the sense of humor.
    Thank God I moved.

    Replies: @Anon, @Ralph L

    I’m sure he likes a good bum.

  55. @Rupert Pupkin
    I had the misfortune of having Mike Bonin as my representative when I lived in Venice a few years back. He was strictly a Bum's Rights activist, or more like a Bum's Rights fundamentalist, as the rights of bums came first and foremost in any and every situation.
    Bums next to schools, bums on every corner, bum cars parked everywhere with trash or feces trailing behind them, bums on the beaches and in the parks, and his platform never wavered: bums deserve free fancy homes by the beach, bums deserve free food and health care and free drugs and free needles, bums deserve to have the city hold and store their possessions free of charge, bums should not have to obey the law and should be let out of jail sans bail.
    He is basically a pious, preachy, malevolent Portlandia character come to life, just without the sense of humor.
    Thank God I moved.

    Replies: @Anon, @Ralph L

    But I thought he liked the other kind of bum.

  56. It ain’t racial. Hispanics use ‘monkey’ as all-purpose insult.

  57. @Reg Cæsar
    @Citizen of a Silly Country

    Instead of constantly bitching about Steve, why not spell out your own program? What would your concealed carry permit process look like, vis-a-vis race? What fee would each race pay? And, more to the point, how do we get this past the Fourteenth Amendment which, according to the Supreme Court, is the law of the land?


    Do we adopt the laws of Mississippi and Alabama Louisiana and South Carolina, where a majority of blacks can get a permit under race-blind "shall-issue"? "Constitutional carry" (now the policy in the states I crossed out, quite the opposite of just forty years ago) is even more "citizenist"-- you don't even have to file for a permit, just not have any felonies on record-- whatever your race.

    Or should we adopt the policies of much whiter countries? Britain's? Australia's?

    Again, what do we replace the race-blind laws you oppose with? And how?

    And how do we sell this to our fellow citizens? Remember, the McDonald decision, which you oppose and mock, was won for a black gun owner, and the only reason Heller wasn't as well was on a judicial technicality. Most of us cheered, but you were horrified.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Citizen of a Silly Country

    Instead of constantly bitching about Steve, why not spell out your own program?

    The best strategy is to promote awareness of HBD and to close the border.

    Isn’t Steve pursuing both of these things?

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Anonymous


    Isn’t Steve pursuing both of these things?
     
    Yes. That's why I'm here.
  58. @Anonymous
    @notsaying


    But this recording makes me uneasy and resentful, to say the least. It is clear these people and a lot more like them out there set a standard for the rest of us that they do not apply to themselves.
     
    It’s their hypocrisy that makes you uneasy? What about their apparent tribalism, when implicit in letting them in to the American polity was that they become Americans first and not be so ethnocentric?

    Replies: @notsaying

    I sure do not like that, either.

    I want my country back. That isn’t going to happen. What we can do is greatly reduce the number of newcomers. We can also stop letting people like this control us.

  59. Anonymous[387] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    @fredyetagain aka superhonky

    I remember listening to Art Laboe play doo-wop for Chicanos dedicating 1950s songs to their girlfriend while driving back from climbing Mt. Whitney in 1977. It was the only station we could pick up. I'm glad I had a chance to be exposed to this interesting phenomenon.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @MEH 0910

    Art Laboe broadcast a dedication to me on my birthday when I was in an overseas DoDEA high school. It played over Armed Forces Radio Pacific, as it was then called. The request wasn’t called in but mailed in some time in advance, but Laboe made it happen on the right date.
    The song was “Baby Blue” by the Echoes, popular decades before I was born, but it seemed fresh and new to me. I still remember hearing that dedication over the radio and being amazed and thrilled. And I still love that song.

  60. Saying that calling a black person a “monkey” is racist is itself racist.

    Blacks aren’t the only people that get called monkeys: George W. Bush was constantly compared to a chimpanzee. There was that mall Santa some years ago who got in trouble for calling a black kid a little monkey but it turned out he called all the kids at the mall that. Similarly, in Andy Weir’s novel The Martian, the German astronaut refers to his own kids affectionately as monkeys when emailing his wife.

    Calling it racist only when a black person is called a monkey suggests that they are somehow more simian than other people.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Dave Pinsen


    Calling it racist only when a black person is called a monkey suggests that they are somehow more simian than other people.
     
    I ran out of LOL. So have a LOL.

    the German astronaut refers to his own kids affectionately as monkeys when emailing his wife.
     
    My wife and I call our kids a pack of monkeys, except the oldest. We call him the “big gorilla.”
    , @Anon
    @Dave Pinsen

    She said "parece changuito," which can be translated as "seems like a monkey" or "looks like a monkey." Certainly not a nice thing to say about a child.

  61. @Mr. Anon
    The child she made a rude comment about was the vanity child of a fellow council member (white, of course) who is a homosexual. He and his (fake and gay) husband adopted a human being as a fashion accessory. Despite her hypocrisy and s**t-libbyness, I have a hard time really faulting her - she is at least a normal woman.

    Replies: @notsaying

    Maybe yes, but maybe not.

    Do you trust her judgment about this kid? I sure don’t.

    Overexcited kids can be a pain in the butt but that doesn’t mean there is a thing wrong with this kid. I double she approved of two guys adopting kids and doesn’t like to see a black kid getting brought up “white” no matter how well they behave.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    @notsaying


    Overexcited kids can be a pain in the butt but that doesn’t mean there is a thing wrong with this kid.
     
    I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the kid, other than something which is not the kid's fault - having two "dads".
    , @JR Ewing
    @notsaying

    You completely missed his point (and hers). She wasn't necessarily complaining about the kid's behavior, although it was expressed that way.

    What she was really commenting about was the gay men playing house and using a black kid as a prop.

    Replies: @notsaying

    , @Alden
    @notsaying

    You’re obviously not familiar with the behavior of black kids, especially boys. You obviously don’t know any teachers who have taught boys or seen how they behave after school roaming in packs cursing and swearing and lurching and lunging all over stores streets sidewalks and everywhere.

    I live in Los Angeles part of the year. In Bonin’s district. Bonin is a vicious anti White goy liberal. His sole purpose being in public office is to seek higher office and impose his Jewish gay pro criminal lifestyle on the world.

    He managed to get his latest project approved and funds allocated. The plan is to build 950 apartments on a lot about the size of one block. Problem is that 400 of those apartments will be low income or black thug. 400 units full of welfare moms and other lowlifes.

    There’s enough problems with the deranged meth addict black veterans who hang around the nearby VA hospital. But the combo of the black vets and 400 low income units is dangerous.

    I agree Bonin and his beloved bums have ruined Venice. Recently the bums set a fire and destroyed a 3 story building under construction.

    Black adoptees, especially boys seldom work out. Their aggressiveness bouncing off the wall energy low school achievement and the thug friends they make really doesn’t mesh with the standard ultra liberal gay civil rights attorneys who adopt them.

    , @Kylie
    @notsaying

    "Overexcited kids can be a pain in the butt but that doesn’t mean there is a thing wrong with this kid."

    Did you even read the transcript or listen to the tape?

    The councilwoman didn't say there was anything wrong with the kid. She commented on the way he was being raised by his adoptive dad. And her calling the kid a monkey was in the context of the kid climbing all over a float in an MLK parade.

    I thought her remarks were funny. What I didn't think was funny was 1) two men being married 2) two men adopting a kid 3) two white men adopting a black kid, 4) a woman serving on a city council and 5) non-whites in government offices in the US.

  62. @rebel yell

    News of the audio ricocheted around Los Angeles on Sunday, eliciting shock and fury but also acknowledgment of the complexity of race relations in the sprawling city.
     
    Racist whites are literally Hitler! Literally Hitler!
    Racist mexicans are, well...complex.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Paul Jolliffe, @Prester John

    Racist whites are literally Hitler! Literally Hitler!
    Racist mexicans are, well…complex.

    What about racist blacks?

    Blacks can’t be racist. Such a suggestion itself is racist. How dare you!

  63. @Dave Pinsen
    Saying that calling a black person a "monkey" is racist is itself racist.

    Blacks aren't the only people that get called monkeys: George W. Bush was constantly compared to a chimpanzee. There was that mall Santa some years ago who got in trouble for calling a black kid a little monkey but it turned out he called all the kids at the mall that. Similarly, in Andy Weir's novel The Martian, the German astronaut refers to his own kids affectionately as monkeys when emailing his wife.

    Calling it racist only when a black person is called a monkey suggests that they are somehow more simian than other people.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Anon

    Calling it racist only when a black person is called a monkey suggests that they are somehow more simian than other people.

    I ran out of LOL. So have a LOL.

    the German astronaut refers to his own kids affectionately as monkeys when emailing his wife.

    My wife and I call our kids a pack of monkeys, except the oldest. We call him the “big gorilla.”

  64. @notsaying
    @Mr. Anon

    Maybe yes, but maybe not.

    Do you trust her judgment about this kid? I sure don't.

    Overexcited kids can be a pain in the butt but that doesn't mean there is a thing wrong with this kid. I double she approved of two guys adopting kids and doesn't like to see a black kid getting brought up "white" no matter how well they behave.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @JR Ewing, @Alden, @Kylie

    Overexcited kids can be a pain in the butt but that doesn’t mean there is a thing wrong with this kid.

    I’m not saying there is anything wrong with the kid, other than something which is not the kid’s fault – having two “dads”.

  65. @Ron Unz
    I'd heard something about the controversy, but now reading the details, the story seems hugely overblown.

    I'd assumed that the Council members had been throwing around vicious racial slurs, but it sounds like they were merely talking candidly in private like you'd expect local politicians to do, or most other hard-boiled people for that matter. Would a tape recording of the private conversations of police officers or fire fighters or construction workers be any different? I'd bet that even many university faculty lounges would sometimes have this sort of conversation. If everyone is a thought criminal then no one is a thought-criminal.

    Similarly, the "secret tapes" of President Richard Nixon mostly had him talking in private the way most other politicians talked, but the media presented it as being horrific.

    Obviously, these days people can easily get purged for just speaking plainly in private. But it sounds like none of the Council members are planning to resign, so maybe the whole thing will fade away.

    I'd bet that in lots of cities the private conversations would involve plans for massive corruption and bribery rather than this sort of ordinary political horse-trading.

    Replies: @ic1000, @R.G. Camara, @animalogic, @Muggles, @Jim Bob Lassiter

    Sorry, but this conversation is indicative of structural corruption.
    Politicians should never be in charge voting redistribution.
    Such matters should be settled by a nonpolitical administrative body, based upon strict rules & demographic facts.

    • Agree: JR Ewing
    • Replies: @Curle
    @animalogic

    “Such matters should be settled by a nonpolitical administrative body, based upon strict rules & demographic facts.”

    You’re joking, right? Courts, which are administrative bodies, can’t figure out how to create majority minority districts without creating bizarre gerrymandered districts. Someone has to choose the relevant demographic facts. Best solution I’ve heard of involves computer programs that are programmed for one task, creating a map of compact boundaries based solely on registered voters.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @animalogic

  66. @Anonymous
    @Reg Cæsar


    Instead of constantly bitching about Steve, why not spell out your own program?
     
    The best strategy is to promote awareness of HBD and to close the border.

    Isn’t Steve pursuing both of these things?

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Isn’t Steve pursuing both of these things?

    Yes. That’s why I’m here.

    • Agree: ic1000
  67. Oh my good gawd !!!!

    Talk about washing dirty linen in public!

    The infamous Nixon Tapes spring to mind with the profanity, ethnic slurs and general unpleasantness.

  68. “changuito,”- lol that’s funny.

  69. “They’re raising him like a little white kid,” Ms. Martinez said on the recording.”

    Oh, that does sound so very racist. Racist, racist, racist. How exactly did someone get away with such a statement for so very long? Perhaps the recording was saved and then leaked at the appropriate time?

    Also, wonder if the mall developer had a hand in developing the very nice upscale mall in Orange County near the highway? It’s the one near Newport Beach. Suppose Mr. Google could help, but anyway, that was a nice mall when last visited it, albeit there were tons of blacks and Mexicans there.

    The other thing noticed is that one of the members of the story, a Karen who is black. Something one doesn’t see everyday. She ought to consider a name change, say to something more appropriate, such as Becky.

  70. @Nathan
    The English language, being a truly magnificent means of expression, has a word that can be used for "indigenous immigrants." That word would be "irredentist."

    I guess "irredentist" has some politically inconvenient connotations, and that there's good reason the New York Times doesn't want it applied here.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara, @SIMP simp

    Irredentism is literally fascism. The word and the concept come from Italy.

  71. If they are “Indigenous,” then how are they “immigrants?”

    Indeed Steve that is rather jarring.

    Easier to live here in Europe where there are no indigenous people, we are told, apart from the Saami deerherder guys up the North of Scandinavia.

  72. @Malcolm X-Lax
    @MEH 0910

    You beat me to it, mf'er. I was just scanning to see if anyone posted this.

    Replies: @zoos

    You forgot about Andy Kaufman’s kids…

    • Replies: @Malcolm X-Lax
    @zoos

    I saw that episode as it aired. Classic. Wonder how that might fly today.

  73. @MEH 0910

    Bonin is a gay white progressive who recently adopted a black child.
     
    Brüno (2009) - Talk Show Scene - 'Today with Richard Bey' [HD]
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbA6X2Vdx5A

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Br%C3%BCno

    Replies: @MEH 0910, @Wokechoke, @Malcolm X-Lax, @Steve Sailer, @Almost Missouri, @International Jew

    Thanks.

  74. @MEH 0910

    Bonin is a gay white progressive who recently adopted a black child.
     
    Brüno (2009) - Talk Show Scene - 'Today with Richard Bey' [HD]
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbA6X2Vdx5A

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Br%C3%BCno

    Replies: @MEH 0910, @Wokechoke, @Malcolm X-Lax, @Steve Sailer, @Almost Missouri, @International Jew

    It’s striking how with a clip like this, you might be able to get even a liberal to see that maybe there is something wrong with homosexual adoption, yet if the child were white or Asian, would they still see it?

    • Replies: @JR Ewing
    @Almost Missouri

    This clip reminds me - actually the hot tub pictures at the end do - of something I've been wondering a while.

    What happened to the Monkeypox?

  75. @Citizen of a Silly Country
    Colorblind civic nationalism just can't stop winning!

    It's bizarre that Steve writes posts that utterly discredit his own Citizenism. It's quite clear that in a multiracial society, race comes first in any political discussion.

    Yet, Steve insists that whites - and whites only - don't play that game. Instead, he asks that whites lay back and think of Citizenism as we get it good and hard.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Anon, @Almost Missouri

    Lee Kuan Yew figured out multicultural democracy long ago.

    • Agree: mc23
  76. @Loyalty Over IQ Worship
    Speaking of things falling apart:

    A senior member of the state Duma, Russia's parliament, said that any U.S. states that want to break away from the country and instead join the Russian Federation will be considered. -

    If Americans vote to secede some states from the country and express a desire to join Russia, Moscow will consider it, Tolmachev told Russian news site Podmoskovye Segodnya.
     

    Guys, I'm against this. I wouldn't know how to handle the freedom. Or how to handle an elite class that doesn't hate my guts.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Almost Missouri

    Lol. I’d consider this for the greater freedom of speech and instant nuclear umbrella that would be instantly necessary to protect that greater freedom. But I’d worry that the Russian Duma wouldn’t accept any new provinces that don’t have a majority of Russians.

  77. @rebel yell

    News of the audio ricocheted around Los Angeles on Sunday, eliciting shock and fury but also acknowledgment of the complexity of race relations in the sprawling city.
     
    Racist whites are literally Hitler! Literally Hitler!
    Racist mexicans are, well...complex.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Paul Jolliffe, @Prester John

    Rebel Yell,

    You beat me to it. “Complicated” is the new code word.

    From yesterday’s AP story about the horrific drive-by shooting in Iowa, all Latin gang related:

    https://apnews.com/article/gun-violence-crime-shootings-education-iowa-c92b378b7a9b4f32c695ec2861fc1d27

  78. @FozzieT
    “In a searing joint statement on Sunday, Mr. Bonin and his husband, Sean Arian, said that they were “appalled, angry and absolutely disgusted””

    “His husband.” I know it’s been a thing for some time now, but it’s still jarring to hear those words together. I know there are many other iSteve-y subjects in this article, but somehow the combination of these words makes me “appalled, angry, and absolutely disgusted.”

    Replies: @JR Ewing, @Rob McX

    I aways find it jarring, mainly because – by definition – only a wife can have a husband.

    Gay dudes could just as easily say “spouse” but that takes away the enjoyment of giving the bird to society and human civilization.

    • Agree: Hibernian
    • Replies: @VivaLaMigra
    @JR Ewing

    You nailed it. Originally both partners of a "same-sex" marriage were "spouses." The "his husband" and "her wife" came along to rub the noses of straight people in the gay people's crap. At the first "gay weddings" the official would say "I now pronounce you married under the laws of such-and-such jurisdiction or state." Is the new wording "I pronounce you husband and husband"...? "....man and man"...? "..wife and wife" ... "woman and woman"... ? For men, how 'bout "I now pronounce you Top and Bottom"...?

  79. @notsaying
    @Mr. Anon

    Maybe yes, but maybe not.

    Do you trust her judgment about this kid? I sure don't.

    Overexcited kids can be a pain in the butt but that doesn't mean there is a thing wrong with this kid. I double she approved of two guys adopting kids and doesn't like to see a black kid getting brought up "white" no matter how well they behave.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @JR Ewing, @Alden, @Kylie

    You completely missed his point (and hers). She wasn’t necessarily complaining about the kid’s behavior, although it was expressed that way.

    What she was really commenting about was the gay men playing house and using a black kid as a prop.

    • Replies: @notsaying
    @JR Ewing

    Hmmm. That is possible. I just don't know.

  80. @MEH 0910
    @notsaying


    It is clear these people and a lot more like them out there set a standard for the rest of us that they do not apply to themselves.
     
    https://www.foxnews.com/us/la-councilwoman-caught-making-racist-comments-history-calling-america-trump-racist
    https://twitter.com/FoxNews/status/1579591107649773568

    Replies: @ic1000, @Pop Warner

    > LA councilwoman caught on tape making racist comments has history of calling America, Trump racist

    Meh, have you written the NYT’s Ombudsman with a link to that tweet? He’ll be sure that an Update is promptly printed, to provide that important missing context. The newspaper’s subscribers will thank him, and you.

  81. What’s interesting to me is that

    This is her personality, it’s the same as my personality (and every other human being because we all talk like that) …But if you’re white and Christian you have to be PERfect Always

    But A Hispanic WOman can get to the highest level of L.A. Politics without being perfect

    Who was protecting her? And who bugged her and why?

    Let’s get over what she said, and focus on Who Did The Bugging

    • Replies: @TWS
    @Thoughts

    Our town used to record all the council meetings to keep the minutes.

  82. @Citizen of a Silly Country
    Colorblind civic nationalism just can't stop winning!

    It's bizarre that Steve writes posts that utterly discredit his own Citizenism. It's quite clear that in a multiracial society, race comes first in any political discussion.

    Yet, Steve insists that whites - and whites only - don't play that game. Instead, he asks that whites lay back and think of Citizenism as we get it good and hard.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Anon, @Almost Missouri

    Colorblind civic nationalism

    has been US government policy since approximately the Civil War, and Constitutionally required since 1868 and the 14th Amendment. It even superseded the real Constitution with the advent of the [anti-]Civil Rights movement in the 1960s, following which it became a kind of social/civic religion. I’m not saying it was right or wrong, good or bad, just noting that it had a real history.

    My feeling is that it first started fraying in the 1990s when the neologism “identity politics” started to circulate. People, especially white people, sensed that “identity politics” meant identity policies, which necessarily contravened the de facto social compact of amiable equality. Increasingly embattled “colorblind civic nationalism” did get a momentary shot in the arm from 9/11, but the deterioration continued during the Bush years, for example the media using Hurricane Katrina as racial cudgel against the President.

    I would say it was the rise of Obama that really heralded the end. He played the double game of promoting select identity groups while posing as “racial healer”. Naïve whites could support him for the latter, while cannier identities understood the former. In his second term, he—and the Media Industrial Complex that made him—shed the pretense and went full woke, which brings us to where we are now: colorblind civnattery hanging on by its legal fingernails while the media, culture and society are full bore anti-white.

    Historically, the law has always eventually given way to the culture, so perhaps the question is when will the official colorblind equality that started in 1868 officially, de jure, end, and how? Five years? Fifty years? By a Jumanji Jackson Supreme Court decision? By a Constitutional Amendment propounded by President Camacho‘s Executive Order?

  83. @Almost Missouri
    @MEH 0910

    It's striking how with a clip like this, you might be able to get even a liberal to see that maybe there is something wrong with homosexual adoption, yet if the child were white or Asian, would they still see it?

    Replies: @JR Ewing

    This clip reminds me – actually the hot tub pictures at the end do – of something I’ve been wondering a while.

    What happened to the Monkeypox?

  84. Since Ms. Nury Martinez graduated from a public high school that is 96% Latino and graduated from Cal St Northridge (50% six year graduate rate for Latinos), she did not learn how to modify here statements to not sound so bigoted.

    What is also strange is there is a picture of her Facebook page of a husband but no mention in any media story, wikipage, etc.

    • Replies: @Curle
    @guest007

    “she did not learn how to modify here statements to not sound so bigoted.”

    Sure she did, any examples of her saying such things in public?

    She was speaking privately to fellow Mexicans who, apparently, say such things.

    Replies: @guest007

  85. If they are “Indigenous,” then how are they “immigrants?”

    “Indigenous” refers to their ethnicity, which is indigenous (i.e. endogenous) to the Americas; “immigrants” refers to them individually, regarding country of origin.
    I haven’t an opinion whether this is a bad choice of words. Perhaps it’s not, as hardly anyone refers to someone as “indigenous” or “exogenous” regarding his country of origin.

    • Replies: @guest007
    @Brás Cubas

    If one pays attention to the way the media reports stories, in the U.S. what used to be Indians are now "Native Americans" and in Canada they are "First Peoples" but in mexico they still refer to them as Indians because no media source is going to call them "Native Mexicans."

    If is related to the problems caused by the term "People of Color" where it is left to the listener/reader to determine who is included and who is excluded based upon context and knowledge that the speaker/writer does not bother to explains. Example: Saying that "there are not enough people of color working in Silicon Valley" leaves it to the listener/reader to understand that people of color means blacks and that Asians are not counted nor are middle easterners.

    Replies: @ght, @stillCARealist

  86. @Anonymous
    @R.G. Camara


    Nixon’s statements on the tapes weren’t bad, but the media types pretended to get all the vapors about them, because they hated Nixon.
     
    The tapes were bad because of two things. In them, Nixon leveled criticism against Jews. Also, in some of his remarks one could hear expressed implicitly a sense of a core American identity. They hated him because of these two things. They got the vapors because of these two things.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

    What portion of the 28% white Los Angeles are Jewish? What portion are Persian or Arab or ex-Soviet Men With Gold Chains, etc., as opposed to beleaguered “core White identity”?

    • Replies: @Alden
    @Almost Missouri

    The Jew and European ethnicity Whites of Los Angeles are ultra liberal woke black criminal lovers. Even those who have been victims of black crime.

    The Persians, Armenians Indian and non European Caucasians of Los Angeles despise blacks and vote Republican. Their politics and opinions are similar to UNZ and American Renaissance commenters.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

    , @Twinkie
    @Almost Missouri


    ex-Soviet Men With Gold Chains
     
    Hey now, Armenians are real the Caucasians, you northern barbarian!
  87. @pyrrhus
    Quick summary...blacks are low status in Mexico and all of Latin America, and hispanics are not going to put up with black crime in their living areas...

    Replies: @Fred C Dobbs

    best………..or at any rate, most realist of comments. Mexicans know the score, and have for hundreds of years. It’s innate.

  88. I thought it was funny to hear the kid described as an accessory (which is probably accurate) and frank comments about the racial dynamics at work – these things are always under the surface no matter how much Democrats like to pretend they are so high minded about race and identity, other than whites of course.

    Congress is usually the first example one thinks of in terms of nominally democratic bodies that don’t really represent the constituent populations all that well, but it seems like big city councils largely fall into that bucket as well. My own city has more blacks and gays than is proportional, and inside of the last 10 years went from one that was pretty close to the city’s political disposition to a council in which the non-left activist types are down to just a few members. Democracy is increasingly anything but democratic.

  89. @ic1000
    @Ron Unz

    > I’d bet that even many university faculty lounges would sometimes have this sort of conversation.

    Disagree. Nobody who has scrabbled up to Assistant Professor or higher would violate their sacred Diversity Statement by having this sort of conversation in the faculty lounge, where it might be overheard or, as we can see, recorded.

    When thoughts are secretively whispered in a sauna or in the middle of a swimming pool, is it really a "conversation"?

    Replies: @Bill Jones

    When thoughts are secretively whispered in a sauna or in the middle of a swimming pool, is it really a “conversation”?

    Sauna or Swimming pool?
    Doesn’t Bathhouse Bonin get to converse?
    Or perhaps he was brought up not to speak with his mouth full.?

  90. @Dave Pinsen
    Saying that calling a black person a "monkey" is racist is itself racist.

    Blacks aren't the only people that get called monkeys: George W. Bush was constantly compared to a chimpanzee. There was that mall Santa some years ago who got in trouble for calling a black kid a little monkey but it turned out he called all the kids at the mall that. Similarly, in Andy Weir's novel The Martian, the German astronaut refers to his own kids affectionately as monkeys when emailing his wife.

    Calling it racist only when a black person is called a monkey suggests that they are somehow more simian than other people.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Anon

    She said “parece changuito,” which can be translated as “seems like a monkey” or “looks like a monkey.” Certainly not a nice thing to say about a child.

  91. Anonymous[584] • Disclaimer says:

    Forget it.

    It will all be swept down the memory hole, pronto, and a year from now no one, but no one will even remember this tawdry tape, let alone care about it. You see, whitey cannot be construed as the villain here – although you might see some creative and convoluted wordsmithery, from the NYT etc. That’s it, the only metric which actually matters, uber alles, to the editors of the American news media. Factual reporting of stories of interest to readers, as you must all know, comes way down the list after sticking it to whitey and fawning all over darkie.

    Remember, if you will, the ‘Ramparts’ scandal involving the LAPD, a number of years back? Probably not. For a couple of days it was splashed everywhere, the media were positively orgasmic, a new Watergate, George Floyd and Russiagate all rolled into one. Soon dropped like a hot potato with nary a squeak issued since. The reason? All of the baddies involved were ‘persons of color’. You can’t have that, can you?

    • Agree: Colin Wright
    • Replies: @AceDeuce
    @Anonymous

    You're right about the Rampart LAPD scandal, as well as other bad conduct scandals in the 1990s LAPD, being conducted by negroes and tacoeaters.

    As you said, that got it swept under the rug at the time, but now, 25-30 years later, the MSM will trot out the Rampart scandal as an example of LAPD malfeasance, without mentioning the ethnicity of the bad actors, allowing the mouthbreathers to infer that YT was at it again.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  92. @Graveldips
    What matters is that any White with two brain cells can see what the Mexicans have in mind for us. The Great Replacement in action.

    Replies: @in the middle

    see what the Mexicans.

    Funny, those people are not Mexicans, as far as I see, Mexican government people are south of the border. They are just like you, Americans . Wish people start seeing All Americans as themselves. The powers that be, have created divisions all over, calling asians, latins, mexicans, etc. We don t hear, Germans, Italians, English, Irish, french, Russians, Kazhars, etc., but they are called ‘white’. So I guess whites don’t have ancestry, or they just appeared out of no where in the USA, and were categorized into just ‘white’. I wonder… Oh, and whites are only in two countries in North America, ignoring that the whitest nation in the Americas, is, wait for it, wait for it, not the USA, but Argentina!

    • Replies: @bomag
    @in the middle


    Wish people start seeing All Americans as themselves.
     
    The world has never worked that way. Maybe for a short period of time in some places; but things always settle out based on race/ethnicity.
    , @Graveldips
    @in the middle

    You are blind, willfully so. They see themselves as Mexicans. They literally call themselves Mexicans. "Hispanic" and "Latino" are words they use when trying to appear educated. Mexicans do not want to be lumped in with Guatamalans or El Salvadoreans, and those groups learn to keep a low profile because the Mexicans won't tolerate any uppityness from them.
    Real White Hispanics, like Argentineans or some Nicaraguans, look down on Mexicans and will use "Hispanic", but not "Latino". I used to teach mostly Mexican kids, so this is first hand information.

  93. @Brás Cubas

    If they are “Indigenous,” then how are they “immigrants?”
     
    "Indigenous" refers to their ethnicity, which is indigenous (i.e. endogenous) to the Americas; "immigrants" refers to them individually, regarding country of origin.
    I haven't an opinion whether this is a bad choice of words. Perhaps it's not, as hardly anyone refers to someone as "indigenous" or "exogenous" regarding his country of origin.

    Replies: @guest007

    If one pays attention to the way the media reports stories, in the U.S. what used to be Indians are now “Native Americans” and in Canada they are “First Peoples” but in mexico they still refer to them as Indians because no media source is going to call them “Native Mexicans.”

    If is related to the problems caused by the term “People of Color” where it is left to the listener/reader to determine who is included and who is excluded based upon context and knowledge that the speaker/writer does not bother to explains. Example: Saying that “there are not enough people of color working in Silicon Valley” leaves it to the listener/reader to understand that people of color means blacks and that Asians are not counted nor are middle easterners.

    • Agree: Bardon Kaldian
    • Replies: @ght
    @guest007

    You should compare the English/FrenchWikipedia articles on the so-called "First Nations" of Canada.
    In the English version they're referred to by the revisionist PC term First Nations but in the French version of the same article they usually called Amerindiens (bonafide English cognate being Amerindian). The latter ethnic term Amerindian doesn't denotate New World country of origin the way *American* Indian or Native *American* does but only broad racial Ancestry. But apparently Anglophone Canadian leftists prefer First Nations over Amerindians b/c it sounds more "uplifting" or whatever. Like in the US substituting black for the multi syllable "African American."

    , @stillCARealist
    @guest007

    Wait, so in the US we have Native Americans, which are sacred, but in MX they don't have Native Mexicans, also sacred?

    I wonder if they name their sports teams after the natives' tribal names, or whatever. I'll bet every badass team wants to be the Aztecs. "We'll eat your hearts out!"

    Replies: @guest007

  94. @ScarletNumber

    Mr. Bonin carried his adopted son, who is Black, as if the toddler were a designer handbag
     
    It's funny because it's true. It's also funny (in a different way) how in modern America one gets points for being dishonest.

    Replies: @AnotherDad

    Mr. Bonin carried his adopted son, who is Black, as if the toddler were a designer handbag

    It’s funny because it’s true. It’s also funny (in a different way) how in modern America one gets points for being dishonest.

    Exactly. She’s obviously spot on here. Few things are quite as pathetic as these homosexuals and their phony “marriages”. And then this one has obviously adopted a black kid as massive I-so-progressive virtue signal. Which–she’s right–this turd will have no idea how to raise. “Designer handbag” is spot on.

    The whole thing is offensive, but in America we’re suppose to nod and smile at this behavior, and this Bonin clown can flounce around calling for dismissal of someone pointing out his disgusting behavior.

    • Thanks: JR Ewing
    • Replies: @guest007
    @AnotherDad

    So is the argument that the kid would be better off in foster care or adopted by a blue collar mother with no husband than being adopted by rich people.

    Replies: @Brutusale, @AnotherDad, @Mike Tre, @Thea

  95. @Sparkling Wiggle

    Indigenous immigrants
     
    Extraordinary.

    The self-contradiction, the capitalization—it’s perfect.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Raki Rakkoon, @ScarletNumber

    I think the word they’re trying to avoid is Indios, which truly is a racial slur to Spanish speakers.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Raki Rakkoon

    The word "Amerindian" used to be what progressive academics such as anthropologists used in the postwar era. I read an Evelyn Waugh travel article from about 1960 in which he revisits some South American places he visited before writing "A Handful of Dust" and he complains about how you are now supposed to use the word "Amerindian," but even the arch-reactionary Waugh somewhat agreed that it's a helpfully self-explanatory term.

    It's mostly faded. The New York Times uses it a few times per year in book reviews, art reviews, fashion coverage, but not in the news section. Similarly, "mestizo" is occasionally used in the culture sections, but not in the news section.

    "Amerindian immigrants" would certainly be more self-explanatory than the oxymoronic "Indigenous immigrants."

    Replies: @Muggles

  96. @in the middle
    @Graveldips

    see what the Mexicans.

    Funny, those people are not Mexicans, as far as I see, Mexican government people are south of the border. They are just like you, Americans . Wish people start seeing All Americans as themselves. The powers that be, have created divisions all over, calling asians, latins, mexicans, etc. We don t hear, Germans, Italians, English, Irish, french, Russians, Kazhars, etc., but they are called 'white'. So I guess whites don't have ancestry, or they just appeared out of no where in the USA, and were categorized into just 'white'. I wonder... Oh, and whites are only in two countries in North America, ignoring that the whitest nation in the Americas, is, wait for it, wait for it, not the USA, but Argentina!

    Replies: @bomag, @Graveldips

    Wish people start seeing All Americans as themselves.

    The world has never worked that way. Maybe for a short period of time in some places; but things always settle out based on race/ethnicity.

  97. @Steve Sailer
    @R.G. Camara

    Politicians conspire against each other?

    Who knew?

    Replies: @R.G. Camara, @Corvinus

    You really need to heed this message.

    John Robb—We are being mentally rewired by the technologies of social networking. It’s an involuntary process. That mental rewiring is forcing a reorganization of society. Those changes are dangerous during the early phases (think: printing press/30-years war)…We might need to shut down Twitter to increase our potential of surviving the first half of this century. Network decision making, in its current raw form, is simply too dangerous.

    Until you NOTICE without snark and caginess the real time misinformation and disinformation efforts taking place, you are clearly contributing to it.

  98. If they are “Indigenous,” then how are they “immigrants?”

    The key thing about being indigenous isn’t the specific place to which you’re indigenous but rather the fact that you are indigenous, period. Which makes you better than someone who’s not indigenous (a white person, for instance, who as we know is indigenous nowhere), and entitles you to his equity.

    As a special case of this, note that Blacks, though not indigenous to America, have, by virtue of their indigenous status elsewhere, a legitimate claim to North America and Britain.

  99. @JimDandy
    Can't they all just get along?

    Replies: @Richard B, @American Citizen

    Can’t they all just get along?

    Nope!
    And I doubt I’m the only one who isn’t surprised, disappointed, or concerned about it.

    What’s interesting is the convergence between two Sailerisms.
    1. The coalition of the fringes being held together by the crazy glue of antiwhite hatred.
    2. Invite-Invade-In Debt to the World foreign, domestic and economic policies as the foundation of the hostile elite’s power.

    For me the Invite part is about inviting POC Americans to indulge in antiwhite hatred (and violence) as well as inviting POC Immigrants to come to the US to join POC Americans in all the antiwhite fun (anyone doubt it’s fun for them?).

    Now that’s what you call burning the candle from, well, more than two ends. Anyway, you get the idea. There’s no more wax in the candle.

    What’s full of interest is that the above convergence and the system of ethics that comes from it will end in a Pyrrhic Victory for the hostile elite. Then again, it was always going to end like this for them. And that is arguably the only bright spot in all of this.

  100. @MEH 0910

    Bonin is a gay white progressive who recently adopted a black child.
     
    Brüno (2009) - Talk Show Scene - 'Today with Richard Bey' [HD]
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbA6X2Vdx5A

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Br%C3%BCno

    Replies: @MEH 0910, @Wokechoke, @Malcolm X-Lax, @Steve Sailer, @Almost Missouri, @International Jew

    Ok, we need a LOL² button for that.

  101. @guest007
    @Brás Cubas

    If one pays attention to the way the media reports stories, in the U.S. what used to be Indians are now "Native Americans" and in Canada they are "First Peoples" but in mexico they still refer to them as Indians because no media source is going to call them "Native Mexicans."

    If is related to the problems caused by the term "People of Color" where it is left to the listener/reader to determine who is included and who is excluded based upon context and knowledge that the speaker/writer does not bother to explains. Example: Saying that "there are not enough people of color working in Silicon Valley" leaves it to the listener/reader to understand that people of color means blacks and that Asians are not counted nor are middle easterners.

    Replies: @ght, @stillCARealist

    You should compare the English/FrenchWikipedia articles on the so-called “First Nations” of Canada.
    In the English version they’re referred to by the revisionist PC term First Nations but in the French version of the same article they usually called Amerindiens (bonafide English cognate being Amerindian). The latter ethnic term Amerindian doesn’t denotate New World country of origin the way *American* Indian or Native *American* does but only broad racial Ancestry. But apparently Anglophone Canadian leftists prefer First Nations over Amerindians b/c it sounds more “uplifting” or whatever. Like in the US substituting black for the multi syllable “African American.”

  102. @Raki Rakkoon
    @Sparkling Wiggle

    I think the word they're trying to avoid is Indios, which truly is a racial slur to Spanish speakers.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    The word “Amerindian” used to be what progressive academics such as anthropologists used in the postwar era. I read an Evelyn Waugh travel article from about 1960 in which he revisits some South American places he visited before writing “A Handful of Dust” and he complains about how you are now supposed to use the word “Amerindian,” but even the arch-reactionary Waugh somewhat agreed that it’s a helpfully self-explanatory term.

    It’s mostly faded. The New York Times uses it a few times per year in book reviews, art reviews, fashion coverage, but not in the news section. Similarly, “mestizo” is occasionally used in the culture sections, but not in the news section.

    “Amerindian immigrants” would certainly be more self-explanatory than the oxymoronic “Indigenous immigrants.”

    • Replies: @Muggles
    @Steve Sailer

    I have been using (and championing) the use of "Siberian Americans" for the original tribal immigrants to the Western Hemisphere.

    There is some minor debate about early Southern Pacific Islanders (and even west Africans) who may have arrived in this hemisphere but the DNA evidence is pretty sparse. For the most part, nearly all alive today (American Indians) who are not mixed with others coming later, are from northern Siberia.

    European Americans, African Americans, Asian Americans and Siberian Americans.

    Give those early travelers some credit. It was a long and cold journey and all the way down to southern Chile, a mighty trek. They wiped out the bigger animals too.

    These SA's (to use initials) are no more indigenous to the Western Hemisphere than horses. The fact that they were here when the Europeans arrived doesn't change that. Various waves of humanity moved out of Africa, we are told, and pretty well wiped out the earlier versions of those along the way.

    Being the first to arrive doesn't give them special status. When invaders are more numerous, stronger, better educated and more advanced, they usually prevail. No matter when or where.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @VivaLaMigra, @That Would Be Telling

  103. Only affluent, college indoctrinated (Anglo) American whites are obcessed with blacks, their sensitivities, their plight (both past and present), etc.

    For the vast majority of non whites and “deplorable” working class whites, attitudes abut blacks generally range from indifference to outright hostility.

    Martinez’s comments abouts Indios are also very telling. Like when white Mexican Vicente Fox said his country’s duskier hued illegals were “doing jobs even blacks would not do.” It makes you wonder if these people aren’t closet IQ/race realists who recognize the lower average intelligence of Indios and blacks and are therefore more realistic in their perceptions of them.

  104. The issue is not whether what the councilwoman said was “racist,” but whether there is truth to the claim that SOME Africans do indeed resemble apes.

    The Negro skull, in addition to having a smaller brain volume and thicker cranial bones than that of the East Asian and European, is prognathous, i.e., the lower face projects forward in the manner of an animal’s muzzle. The Negro jaw is substantially longer, relative to its width, than the East Asian and European jaw. A feature of the Negro lower jaw is its retention of a vestige of the “simian shelf,” a bony region immediately behind the incisors. The simian shelf is a distinguishing characteristic of apes, and it is absent in East Asians and Europeans.

    The Negro pelvis is narrower and longer as it is in an ape.

    The Negro has a larger and shorter neck akin to that of apes.
    The ears are roundish, rather small, standing somewhat high and detached thus approaching the ape form.

    The jaw is larger and stronger and protrudes outward which, along with lower retreating forehead, gives a facial angle of 68 to 70 degrees, like an ape, as opposed to a facial angle of 80 to 82 degrees for East Asians and Europeans.

    Finally, there is the large booty of black females that resemble that of the gorilla and other apes.

    • Replies: @anon
    @Meretricious


    The Negro skull, in addition to having a smaller brain volume and thicker cranial bones than that of the East Asian and European, is prognathous, i.e., the lower face projects forward in the manner of an animal’s muzzle.
     
    Do blacks have thicker skulls than whites and asians? Would that allow them to better withstand blows to the head? One sees disturbingly violent videos of blacks in street fights and they rarely get phased from punches and kicks to the head.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Graveldips, @Eustace Tilley (not), @Twinkie

  105. @AnotherDad
    @ScarletNumber



    Mr. Bonin carried his adopted son, who is Black, as if the toddler were a designer handbag
     
    It’s funny because it’s true. It’s also funny (in a different way) how in modern America one gets points for being dishonest.
     
    Exactly. She's obviously spot on here. Few things are quite as pathetic as these homosexuals and their phony "marriages". And then this one has obviously adopted a black kid as massive I-so-progressive virtue signal. Which--she's right--this turd will have no idea how to raise. "Designer handbag" is spot on.

    The whole thing is offensive, but in America we're suppose to nod and smile at this behavior, and this Bonin clown can flounce around calling for dismissal of someone pointing out his disgusting behavior.

    Replies: @guest007

    So is the argument that the kid would be better off in foster care or adopted by a blue collar mother with no husband than being adopted by rich people.

    • Replies: @Brutusale
    @guest007

    Some black kids would settle for anyone who didn't smack them around.

    https://www.foxnews.com/sports/former-nba-player-ben-gordon-arrested-allegedly-hitting-10-year-old-son-ny-airport-report

    , @AnotherDad
    @guest007


    So is the argument that the kid would be better off in foster care or adopted by a blue collar mother with no husband than being adopted by rich people.
     
    The argument is exactly what I said:

    The kid is--better off or not--is a virtue signaling accessory--as she said.
    , @Mike Tre
    @guest007

    No one said that you silly troll. And you must be suffering from some significant side effects of Lithium to suggest that a court would grant adoption to some random single parent.

    Replies: @guest007

    , @Thea
    @guest007

    Blue collar parents are perfectly good parents. Wealth has never been shown to be beneficial to children in and of itself. This has been used to remove a white child from a working class single dad in Texas and give her to liberal infertile nitwits in California. The slut mom lied to the adoption agency and the argument of the adoptive parents was that they could provide a better(wealthier) life than the biological dad. Disgusting!

    Homosexuals are unstable and deranged.


    Black women really resent this sort of virtue signaling. Many are very aware of what is going on and are livid. Look at Charlize Theron trying to turn her son into a girl. Raising black children to increase the parent’s social standing is child abuse. Foster care would be better in such cases.

    Replies: @guest007

  106. @Thoughts
    What's interesting to me is that

    This is her personality, it's the same as my personality (and every other human being because we all talk like that) ...But if you're white and Christian you have to be PERfect Always

    But A Hispanic WOman can get to the highest level of L.A. Politics without being perfect

    Who was protecting her? And who bugged her and why?

    Let's get over what she said, and focus on Who Did The Bugging

    Replies: @TWS

    Our town used to record all the council meetings to keep the minutes.

  107. Indigenous immigrants: we must apologize to the Indigenous whose land we occupy, while we bow down to the Immigrants who will replace us.

    • Thanks: Harry Baldwin, AceDeuce
  108. @JimDandy
    Can't they all just get along?

    Replies: @Richard B, @American Citizen

    Circular firing squad.

    “My virtue signaling is stronger than yours” takes the place of the bullet.

  109. @notsaying
    @Mr. Anon

    Maybe yes, but maybe not.

    Do you trust her judgment about this kid? I sure don't.

    Overexcited kids can be a pain in the butt but that doesn't mean there is a thing wrong with this kid. I double she approved of two guys adopting kids and doesn't like to see a black kid getting brought up "white" no matter how well they behave.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @JR Ewing, @Alden, @Kylie

    You’re obviously not familiar with the behavior of black kids, especially boys. You obviously don’t know any teachers who have taught boys or seen how they behave after school roaming in packs cursing and swearing and lurching and lunging all over stores streets sidewalks and everywhere.

    I live in Los Angeles part of the year. In Bonin’s district. Bonin is a vicious anti White goy liberal. His sole purpose being in public office is to seek higher office and impose his Jewish gay pro criminal lifestyle on the world.

    He managed to get his latest project approved and funds allocated. The plan is to build 950 apartments on a lot about the size of one block. Problem is that 400 of those apartments will be low income or black thug. 400 units full of welfare moms and other lowlifes.

    There’s enough problems with the deranged meth addict black veterans who hang around the nearby VA hospital. But the combo of the black vets and 400 low income units is dangerous.

    I agree Bonin and his beloved bums have ruined Venice. Recently the bums set a fire and destroyed a 3 story building under construction.

    Black adoptees, especially boys seldom work out. Their aggressiveness bouncing off the wall energy low school achievement and the thug friends they make really doesn’t mesh with the standard ultra liberal gay civil rights attorneys who adopt them.

    • Thanks: Muggles
  110. @Almost Missouri
    @Anonymous

    What portion of the 28% white Los Angeles are Jewish? What portion are Persian or Arab or ex-Soviet Men With Gold Chains, etc., as opposed to beleaguered "core White identity"?

    Replies: @Alden, @Twinkie

    The Jew and European ethnicity Whites of Los Angeles are ultra liberal woke black criminal lovers. Even those who have been victims of black crime.

    The Persians, Armenians Indian and non European Caucasians of Los Angeles despise blacks and vote Republican. Their politics and opinions are similar to UNZ and American Renaissance commenters.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @Alden

    Thank you.

    I wasn't trying to do an electoral calculation of Los Angeles, I was just trying get a rough ethnographic survey. (I have extended family there.)

    If someone says a town in North Dakota is 28% white, I know what that means well enough. But in Los Angeles, 28% white might be ... ?

    5% upper midwest-type whites, 5% okie-dixie-type whites, 5% urban catholic-type whites, 5% non-Euro whites, 5% Ashki-Jewish, 3% coastal WASP-type whites?

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

  111. @MEH 0910
    @notsaying


    It is clear these people and a lot more like them out there set a standard for the rest of us that they do not apply to themselves.
     
    https://www.foxnews.com/us/la-councilwoman-caught-making-racist-comments-history-calling-america-trump-racist
    https://twitter.com/FoxNews/status/1579591107649773568

    Replies: @ic1000, @Pop Warner

    It’s more reprehensible in modern America to make jokes about black people privately than to smear White people publicly.

    • Agree: Twinkie
  112. She also called Oaxacan immigrants living in Koreatown “short little dark people.”

    Clearly the truth is no defense.
    The embattled councilwoman should say simply, “I spoke from my heart, and I spoke the truth. I apologize to no one. I shall have nothing more to say on this issue.”
    Never apologize, never retreat. Double down, and spit in their faces.

    • Agree: American Citizen
    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Macumazahn


    Clearly the truth is no defense.
     
    Saying truthful things that are taboo makes it a worse social crime.
  113. Didn’t Howard Cosell get into a whole lot of trouble 35 years or so ago for noticing how speedy a black football player was, and likening him to a monkey?

  114. @Anonymous

    Ms. Martinez is fairly blanca herself
     
    Wtf? This isn't the first time you've said such a thing.

    Anyway the constant use of the word "little" in the recorded statements by these Hispanics is telling, because Hispanics are the most dimunitive ethnic group in America. It's clear to me that this bullshit is driven by the massive inferiority complex that Mexicans have, which is why they have an extremely deleterious effect on any social institution that they contaminate.

    Replies: @Colin Wright, @Dennis Dale

    ‘Anyway the constant use of the word “little” in the recorded statements by these Hispanics is telling, because Hispanics are the most dimunitive ethnic group in America. It’s clear to me that this bullshit is driven by the massive inferiority complex that Mexicans have, which is why they have an extremely deleterious effect on any social institution that they contaminate.’

    Oh I dunno. Mexicans are okay — if not great.

    I just don’t want more of them.

  115. @FozzieT
    “In a searing joint statement on Sunday, Mr. Bonin and his husband, Sean Arian, said that they were “appalled, angry and absolutely disgusted””

    “His husband.” I know it’s been a thing for some time now, but it’s still jarring to hear those words together. I know there are many other iSteve-y subjects in this article, but somehow the combination of these words makes me “appalled, angry, and absolutely disgusted.”

    Replies: @JR Ewing, @Rob McX

    Just to add a further bizarre twist: From Wikipedia: “Bonin is Catholic, a member of St. Monica Catholic Church in Santa Monica”.

    • Replies: @Alden
    @Rob McX

    He’s a Jew. Probably started going to Catholic Church to try to get his black kid into the catholic school instead of the city school. Lots of Protestants seculars and jews start going to church because they want the kids in the parish school instead of the public school system. I live in his district part of the year. And all my Jewish neighbors in the district claim he’s a Jew. Or why they voted for him and keep voting for him.

    Replies: @kaganovitch

  116. So, the gay councilman literally married an “Arian.” Talk about white supremacy!

  117. @JR Ewing
    @notsaying

    You completely missed his point (and hers). She wasn't necessarily complaining about the kid's behavior, although it was expressed that way.

    What she was really commenting about was the gay men playing house and using a black kid as a prop.

    Replies: @notsaying

    Hmmm. That is possible. I just don’t know.

  118. Curious the timing of the release. Cedillo was already defeated, Martinez is termed out I believe, and De Leon already lost his bid for mayor in the Democratic primary. I’m sure there are political reasons for this and why it happened now. This type of talk goes on in private all the time I have no doubt. It is human nature I think. Today’s council meeting is going to be a hoot!

    • Replies: @Alden
    @Phil Wilson

    Right the MLK parade must have been in January 10 months ago. I guess the Jewish LGBTQ black insane coalition feels threatened by the much more normal Hispanic heterosexuals. Black kids are hyperactive defiant disobedient brats. It’s amazing the dangerous situations they get themselves into. Has anyone checked how old the kid is? Seems like he’s young enough one of his daddies should have been with him on the float. And couldn’t control him.

    Most non black young kids are very shy and subdued in situations like riding in a float in a parade. Not black kids. Everywhere they go they’re screaming and running around. When I first retired I went to all the museums in town. During the week when the school kids went to the museums on field trips. The White Hispanic and asian kids all got off the bus quietly, stood quietly in line and did what the teachers and chaperones told them to do.

    The black kids charged pell mell off the bus screaming and continued screaming and running around wrestling and making spectacles of themselves the entire time they were at the museum.

    Replies: @Colin Wright

  119. @in the middle
    @Graveldips

    see what the Mexicans.

    Funny, those people are not Mexicans, as far as I see, Mexican government people are south of the border. They are just like you, Americans . Wish people start seeing All Americans as themselves. The powers that be, have created divisions all over, calling asians, latins, mexicans, etc. We don t hear, Germans, Italians, English, Irish, french, Russians, Kazhars, etc., but they are called 'white'. So I guess whites don't have ancestry, or they just appeared out of no where in the USA, and were categorized into just 'white'. I wonder... Oh, and whites are only in two countries in North America, ignoring that the whitest nation in the Americas, is, wait for it, wait for it, not the USA, but Argentina!

    Replies: @bomag, @Graveldips

    You are blind, willfully so. They see themselves as Mexicans. They literally call themselves Mexicans. “Hispanic” and “Latino” are words they use when trying to appear educated. Mexicans do not want to be lumped in with Guatamalans or El Salvadoreans, and those groups learn to keep a low profile because the Mexicans won’t tolerate any uppityness from them.
    Real White Hispanics, like Argentineans or some Nicaraguans, look down on Mexicans and will use “Hispanic”, but not “Latino”. I used to teach mostly Mexican kids, so this is first hand information.

  120. @rebel yell

    News of the audio ricocheted around Los Angeles on Sunday, eliciting shock and fury but also acknowledgment of the complexity of race relations in the sprawling city.
     
    Racist whites are literally Hitler! Literally Hitler!
    Racist mexicans are, well...complex.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Paul Jolliffe, @Prester John

    “ricocheted”

    A popular word in parts of LaLa. And Southside Chicago.

  121. stillCARealist [AKA "ForeverCARealist"] says:
    @guest007
    @Brás Cubas

    If one pays attention to the way the media reports stories, in the U.S. what used to be Indians are now "Native Americans" and in Canada they are "First Peoples" but in mexico they still refer to them as Indians because no media source is going to call them "Native Mexicans."

    If is related to the problems caused by the term "People of Color" where it is left to the listener/reader to determine who is included and who is excluded based upon context and knowledge that the speaker/writer does not bother to explains. Example: Saying that "there are not enough people of color working in Silicon Valley" leaves it to the listener/reader to understand that people of color means blacks and that Asians are not counted nor are middle easterners.

    Replies: @ght, @stillCARealist

    Wait, so in the US we have Native Americans, which are sacred, but in MX they don’t have Native Mexicans, also sacred?

    I wonder if they name their sports teams after the natives’ tribal names, or whatever. I’ll bet every badass team wants to be the Aztecs. “We’ll eat your hearts out!”

    • Replies: @guest007
    @stillCARealist

    Soccer teams usually do not have mascots like American teams do. But pro basketball league in Mexico does have mascots but seems to like birds more than tribal names.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liga_Nacional_de_Baloncesto_Profesional

  122. @zoos
    @Malcolm X-Lax

    You forgot about Andy Kaufman's kids…

    https://youtu.be/9u5NoLi0XRc

    https://youtu.be/NlvJ5Rj_tNM

    Replies: @Malcolm X-Lax

    I saw that episode as it aired. Classic. Wonder how that might fly today.

  123. @notsaying
    @Mr. Anon

    Maybe yes, but maybe not.

    Do you trust her judgment about this kid? I sure don't.

    Overexcited kids can be a pain in the butt but that doesn't mean there is a thing wrong with this kid. I double she approved of two guys adopting kids and doesn't like to see a black kid getting brought up "white" no matter how well they behave.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @JR Ewing, @Alden, @Kylie

    “Overexcited kids can be a pain in the butt but that doesn’t mean there is a thing wrong with this kid.”

    Did you even read the transcript or listen to the tape?

    The councilwoman didn’t say there was anything wrong with the kid. She commented on the way he was being raised by his adoptive dad. And her calling the kid a monkey was in the context of the kid climbing all over a float in an MLK parade.

    I thought her remarks were funny. What I didn’t think was funny was 1) two men being married 2) two men adopting a kid 3) two white men adopting a black kid, 4) a woman serving on a city council and 5) non-whites in government offices in the US.

  124. I should have recorded my conversations at the NYC council when I worked there.

    I’m a little vague on the political economy of having assets in your council district.

    Well, the first thing is that in most places, you have to live in your district to represent it in the council, so you end up with um, limited human capital in many districts. The party usually tries to make sure one of their functionaries fills the position, which is why you have council members succeeded by their staffers, who are followed by their staffers, etc.

    When I was there, The black CMs in NYC seemed to think the minute POCs became the majority of members, they would rise naturally to the top as the ‘original’ POCs, acting as retarded docents for the non-black BIPOCs as they all divvied up the spoils of the glorious majority minority legislature. That didn’t quite work out. They got Bloomberg and Dipshit deBlasio as Mayor, and Chris Quinn ( Irish Lesbian- Chelsea), Melissa Mark Viverito ( Boricua Bisexual- Uptown ) and then Corey Johnson ( Half Korean homosexual-Chelsea) as Speaker. Now they finally have a black Mayor and Speaker, as the city enters a decidedly non-Golden Age.

    BLA ( Black Latino Asian) Caucus meetings were a scream. The Asians sat there eating their smelly food and not saying anything, the blacks were very loudly playing the dozens for everyone’s entertainment, and the Latinos were all bitching to each about the other Latinos who weren’t whatever variety they were- Dominican , Puerto Rican, Mexican, whatever.

    A paradise of diversity it was! The best organized group was the gays, naturally, who have a real taste for local busybody politics and symbolic gestures grand and small ( plaques for blacks, flacks, and trannies, etc).

    A Dominican CM I knew was always referring to a guy in her district she called ‘shitface.’ I asked her why she called him that, since he seemed like a nice enough chap. She said it was because he was so dark ( Mind you, she was a Dominican, so very much black herself.) One of the gay white CMs was gossiping in the elevator about the female chair of the public safety committee sleeping with lots of firefighters, and said by that standard he himself should be head of the black and Latino caucus. Big laughs all around.

    This is the government for one of the most important cities in the world in the age of diversity.

  125. Steve, this fits into your normal topic range and partially fits into the issues in this post.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11304167/Stepmom-NBA-star-Ben-Gordons-son-BACKS-athlete-saying-hes-good-person.html

    ‘It was a kiosk Karen’s fault. She triggered him’: Ex-girlfriend blames ‘nosey’ white LaGuardia worker for Bulls legend Ben Gordon’s arrest after he ‘beat his son, 11, so bad he needed hospital treatment’

    Does anyone believe that a frontline TSA workers at LaGuardia is really non-Hispanic white?

  126. @Ron Unz
    I'd heard something about the controversy, but now reading the details, the story seems hugely overblown.

    I'd assumed that the Council members had been throwing around vicious racial slurs, but it sounds like they were merely talking candidly in private like you'd expect local politicians to do, or most other hard-boiled people for that matter. Would a tape recording of the private conversations of police officers or fire fighters or construction workers be any different? I'd bet that even many university faculty lounges would sometimes have this sort of conversation. If everyone is a thought criminal then no one is a thought-criminal.

    Similarly, the "secret tapes" of President Richard Nixon mostly had him talking in private the way most other politicians talked, but the media presented it as being horrific.

    Obviously, these days people can easily get purged for just speaking plainly in private. But it sounds like none of the Council members are planning to resign, so maybe the whole thing will fade away.

    I'd bet that in lots of cities the private conversations would involve plans for massive corruption and bribery rather than this sort of ordinary political horse-trading.

    Replies: @ic1000, @R.G. Camara, @animalogic, @Muggles, @Jim Bob Lassiter

    I’d heard something about the controversy, but now reading the details, the story seems hugely overblown.

    Mr. Unz, why is this particular story “overblown”? Because it doesn’t involve White politicians speaking honestly about their feelings towards others?

    White politicians would be ridden out of town on a rail (as they used to do), not merely subject to eye popping bad publicity.

    Sure, politicos elsewhere caught on candid conversations might also be discussing bribes, kickbacks and dirty tricks, but this hardly “whitewashes” what the sacred Latina said here. She is openly racist about anyone not looking like her race (though Hispanic is a mongrel “race”, not an actual one).

    When you internalize the double standard for hypocrisy then you lose. Are Whites the only people who are held to the highest standards? All others, ho-hum, it’s impolite to notice?

    No, Ms. Latinx Council President wasn’t plotting murder, okay. Bad mouthing a White gay (okay, maybe correct on the details but still..) and blacks and Koreans. Who did she leave out?

    Yes, and the boodle from LAX must be given to her brown pals. This is the California where hearing of this is mere “overblown” gossip, no big deal.

    Mr. Unz needs to leave California pronto….

    • Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic
    @Muggles

    If I were an old bachelor in a town with a two million dollar admission fee and more money than I could ever spend, I'd wonder what the ruckus over this little dust-up was all about too. Why can't everybody just learn English and develop fantastic software?

    , @Bragadocious
    @Muggles

    RU is if nothing else the world's biggest cheerleader for the state of California. Therefore, any story like this which reflects badly on some of its leaders must be minimized or scoffed at. I think Ma Anand Sheela was the same way about Rajneeshpuram.

  127. Bonin was elected in 2013. He’d been chief of staff for the previous council member. Bonin decided not to run again because of “ depression and mental health issues”

    He’s a gay, radical leftist pro criminal Ivy League Harvard Jew from east coast Massachusetts. Who invaded California to help destroy it. Since the 1950s there’s been something similar to the gold rush among radical gay Ivy League east coast Jews. They’re like the gold rush swarms of immigrants. Or sea gulls attacking a dead fish on the beach.

    I never meet so many Ivy League east coast Jews in my life when I was a San Francisco probation officer. We once figured there were more non profit parasites saving criminals from themselves than they were criminals in the county.

    And they’re still swarming to California. The Ivy League radical Jews are more destructive than the black and illegal alien criminals. They rule the state. NYC Chicago San Francisco and Los Angeles are ruled by these radical educated Jews with access to Soros ADL AJC ACLU millions.

    They are destructive and the activists in everything from the pro criminal court system to school bussing to trans bathrooms to the gay movement to destructive environmentalism. A conservative group once researched the CEOs of the 125 largest pro gay organizations in the country. The CEOs of one hundred of those organizations were Jews. Head of the National Teacgers Union is Randi Weingarten proud Jewish lesbian. She’s even been going to Europe to spread her radical revolution in various conferences. She’s a 4th generation east coast radical Jew of course.
    What’s wrong with Jews ? NYC, Chicago Illinois , Los Angeles and a big chunk of Florida are the regional capitals of American Judaism. DC being their national Capitol. Everywhere they go they try to destroy. And usually succeed.

    I’m not prejudiced about certain ethnicities. I’m post judiced. After a lifetime of observation about their destruction of California. As far as the ordinary normal Jews they are hardcore democrat voters and blindly follow every Jewish radical cause from desegregation to trans gender bathrooms . Of all their causes, the one dearest to their hearts is still black criminals.

    I grew up in a Jewish neighborhood always lived in Jewish neighborhoods went to school
    and college with them and dealt with the pro black criminal Ivy League Jewish invaders of San Francisco for 27 years. Their minds accept and believe anything the radical Jewish activists tell them to believe and vote for.

    • Thanks: Bill Jones
    • Replies: @Rob McX
    @Alden

    Harvey Milk was another one who came west from New York, but it didn't work out too well for him. Damn those Twinkies.

    Replies: @stillCARealist

  128. @Alden
    @Almost Missouri

    The Jew and European ethnicity Whites of Los Angeles are ultra liberal woke black criminal lovers. Even those who have been victims of black crime.

    The Persians, Armenians Indian and non European Caucasians of Los Angeles despise blacks and vote Republican. Their politics and opinions are similar to UNZ and American Renaissance commenters.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

    Thank you.

    I wasn’t trying to do an electoral calculation of Los Angeles, I was just trying get a rough ethnographic survey. (I have extended family there.)

    If someone says a town in North Dakota is 28% white, I know what that means well enough. But in Los Angeles, 28% white might be … ?

    5% upper midwest-type whites, 5% okie-dixie-type whites, 5% urban catholic-type whites, 5% non-Euro whites, 5% Ashki-Jewish, 3% coastal WASP-type whites?

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @Almost Missouri


    But in Los Angeles, 28% white might be … ?
     
    After a bit of research, it looks like the answer is ...

    18% Jewish

    10% everybody else.
  129. @Phil Wilson
    Curious the timing of the release. Cedillo was already defeated, Martinez is termed out I believe, and De Leon already lost his bid for mayor in the Democratic primary. I'm sure there are political reasons for this and why it happened now. This type of talk goes on in private all the time I have no doubt. It is human nature I think. Today's council meeting is going to be a hoot!

    Replies: @Alden

    Right the MLK parade must have been in January 10 months ago. I guess the Jewish LGBTQ black insane coalition feels threatened by the much more normal Hispanic heterosexuals. Black kids are hyperactive defiant disobedient brats. It’s amazing the dangerous situations they get themselves into. Has anyone checked how old the kid is? Seems like he’s young enough one of his daddies should have been with him on the float. And couldn’t control him.

    Most non black young kids are very shy and subdued in situations like riding in a float in a parade. Not black kids. Everywhere they go they’re screaming and running around. When I first retired I went to all the museums in town. During the week when the school kids went to the museums on field trips. The White Hispanic and asian kids all got off the bus quietly, stood quietly in line and did what the teachers and chaperones told them to do.

    The black kids charged pell mell off the bus screaming and continued screaming and running around wrestling and making spectacles of themselves the entire time they were at the museum.

    • Agree: Colin Wright
    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    @Alden

    '...Most non black young kids are very shy and subdued in situations like riding in a float in a parade. Not black kids...'

    I saw the same difference in Paris -- albeit not as extreme as what you describe.

    We were in one of the big art museums, and -- not unreasonably -- eventually school classes started coming in.

    With the white kids, the liveliness level of the crowd rose perceptibly -- you just can't expect twelve year olds to be sedate. That was okay, if not exactly good.

    The classes containing black kids were a different matter. They were literally acting as if the museum were a playground.

  130. @Steve Sailer
    @Raki Rakkoon

    The word "Amerindian" used to be what progressive academics such as anthropologists used in the postwar era. I read an Evelyn Waugh travel article from about 1960 in which he revisits some South American places he visited before writing "A Handful of Dust" and he complains about how you are now supposed to use the word "Amerindian," but even the arch-reactionary Waugh somewhat agreed that it's a helpfully self-explanatory term.

    It's mostly faded. The New York Times uses it a few times per year in book reviews, art reviews, fashion coverage, but not in the news section. Similarly, "mestizo" is occasionally used in the culture sections, but not in the news section.

    "Amerindian immigrants" would certainly be more self-explanatory than the oxymoronic "Indigenous immigrants."

    Replies: @Muggles

    I have been using (and championing) the use of “Siberian Americans” for the original tribal immigrants to the Western Hemisphere.

    There is some minor debate about early Southern Pacific Islanders (and even west Africans) who may have arrived in this hemisphere but the DNA evidence is pretty sparse. For the most part, nearly all alive today (American Indians) who are not mixed with others coming later, are from northern Siberia.

    European Americans, African Americans, Asian Americans and Siberian Americans.

    Give those early travelers some credit. It was a long and cold journey and all the way down to southern Chile, a mighty trek. They wiped out the bigger animals too.

    These SA’s (to use initials) are no more indigenous to the Western Hemisphere than horses. The fact that they were here when the Europeans arrived doesn’t change that. Various waves of humanity moved out of Africa, we are told, and pretty well wiped out the earlier versions of those along the way.

    Being the first to arrive doesn’t give them special status. When invaders are more numerous, stronger, better educated and more advanced, they usually prevail. No matter when or where.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Muggles


    European Americans, African Americans, Asian Americans and Siberian Americans.

    These SA’s (to use initials) are no more indigenous to the Western Hemisphere than horses.
     
    Then are we all indigenous to Africa?
    , @VivaLaMigra
    @Muggles


    These SA’s (to use initials) are no more indigenous to the Western Hemisphere than horses.

     

    Interesting that you mentioned the presence of equines [horses] in the Americas because there is now strong, if not overwhelming, evidence that horses crossed the land bridge into North America some time before the people you termed "SA's." However, rather than domesticate them, the newcomers hunted them to extinction. They did without the considerable advantages offered by that species until horses were reintroduced to the continents thousands of years later by the Europeans. Given how the tribes of the plains of North America mastered equestrian arts in relatively short order, using stolen and feral horses to breed their preferred war and hunting ponies, one can only imagine how they could have improved the breed given a millenia or two instead of a few centuries. Considering the magnitude of the potential gain to their culture and standard of living, I sure hope they enjoyed chowing down on Trigger, Mr. Ed, etc.

    Replies: @James Forrestal

    , @That Would Be Telling
    @Muggles


    These [Siberian Americans] are no more indigenous to the Western Hemisphere than horses.... Various waves of humanity moved out of Africa, we are told, and pretty well wiped out the earlier versions of those along the way.
     
    Funny thing about that waves concept. All this is from memory, but it's semi-secret to the extent our ruling trash can suppress it including if I remember correctly siccing the Feds on one archeologist that the current SA's who as you said made it all the way to Chile wiped out the previous ones who'd come across somewhat earlier.
  131. @Rob McX
    @FozzieT

    Just to add a further bizarre twist: From Wikipedia: "Bonin is Catholic, a member of St. Monica Catholic Church in Santa Monica".

    Replies: @Alden

    He’s a Jew. Probably started going to Catholic Church to try to get his black kid into the catholic school instead of the city school. Lots of Protestants seculars and jews start going to church because they want the kids in the parish school instead of the public school system. I live in his district part of the year. And all my Jewish neighbors in the district claim he’s a Jew. Or why they voted for him and keep voting for him.

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    @Alden

    He’s a Jew. Probably started going to Catholic Church to try to get his black kid into the catholic school instead of the city school

    Are you sure? According to wiki his Grandfather was named Constantino.

  132. @guest007
    @AnotherDad

    So is the argument that the kid would be better off in foster care or adopted by a blue collar mother with no husband than being adopted by rich people.

    Replies: @Brutusale, @AnotherDad, @Mike Tre, @Thea

  133. Lee Kuan Yew, the genius political leader of Singapore said “In multiracial societies, you don’t vote in accordance with your economic interests & social interests, you vote in accordance with race.

    It remains to be seen if the United States can pull off his vision.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @mc23

    “Lee Kuan Yew, the genius political leader of Singapore said “In multiracial societies, you don’t vote in accordance with your economic interests & social interests, you vote in accordance with race.“

    The late, great Madison Grant postulated the existence of three European races, which he defined as Nordic, Alpine, and Mediterranean, as well as their physical and mental characteristics. So, which are you?

    Replies: @Twinkie

  134. recent episode of soft white underbelly on youtube. Mexican American in LA recounts how he and 4 others burned down the house of an African American family and a “couple of them passed away”

    • Replies: @fnn
    @Steve Richter

    "soft white underbelly"

    Haha An allusion to another one of Churchill's plans that turned out to be a big mistake-the invasion of Italy. Probably not related to the fact that Hitler is still fairly popular in Mexico.

  135. One of the things about Fringes is that they fray.
    There’s a step too far for everybody.

    J.K. Rowling slams celebrities for supporting trans charity despite its link to pedophilia advocate

    http://www.yourdestinationnow.com/2022/10/jk-rowling-slams-celebrities-for.html

    • Replies: @Cool Daddy Jimbo
    @Bill Jones

    Who would have guessed that the nice lady who wrote the Harry Potter books would turn out to be one of the bravest people on planet Earth!

    Replies: @Bill Jones

  136. Watch: Councilman Mike Bonin addresses crowd at LA City Council meeting

    “First you must resign, then ask forgiveness,” Bonin said during an emotionally charged speech to the large crowd who gathered inside of the LA City Council chambers Tuesday.

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
    @MEH 0910

    https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/[email protected]@._V1_.jpg

    Replies: @Eustace Tilley (not)

    , @Anonymous
    @MEH 0910


    Watch: Councilman Mike Bonin addresses crowd at LA City Council meeting
     
    I’ve said this time and again to my Jewish friends who become appalled at one perceived slight or another, feel the need to act out, and that is, "never go full Jew."

    I remember when Mohamed Ali died, and it was announced that Billy Crystal was to deliver the eulogy. I said, "I hope Billy doesn’t screw it up by going "full Jew." Happily, he didn’t. He did a good job, I thought, because he retrained himself. My Jewish friends were oblivious to what I was talking about, but as someone very capable of going "full Jew" (see Billy’s piss poor "full Jew" performance in "princess bride") Billy showed amazingly self-aware restraint.

    My observation is related to the Ben Stiller movie, "Rolling Thunder," the actors are discussing how to properly play a retard, and Robert Downey Jr's character says, "never go full retard," the implication being it's a spectacle that's too perverse, and even phony, to be accepted by normal people, thereby repulsing the audience, so they can’t empathize with you.

    Unfortunately, Bonin went "full Jew," with unintentionally comic results.

    Never go "full Jew."

    Just change the word "retard" to "Jew," and the reader might agree it’s a great rule for Jews to live by, if they want to be more effective in their time-worn writhing angst routines:

    https://youtu.be/1Y3FzVQi-R8

  137. @MEH 0910
    Watch: Councilman Mike Bonin addresses crowd at LA City Council meeting
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yejako3M1Y

    "First you must resign, then ask forgiveness," Bonin said during an emotionally charged speech to the large crowd who gathered inside of the LA City Council chambers Tuesday.
     

    Replies: @MEH 0910, @Anonymous

    • Replies: @Eustace Tilley (not)
    @MEH 0910

    I think I'll puke up my burrito,
    My taco, empanada, and Frito
    At this dude sitting there
    With his weird, creepy stare
    Putting fear in that little changuito.

  138. @Muggles
    @Steve Sailer

    I have been using (and championing) the use of "Siberian Americans" for the original tribal immigrants to the Western Hemisphere.

    There is some minor debate about early Southern Pacific Islanders (and even west Africans) who may have arrived in this hemisphere but the DNA evidence is pretty sparse. For the most part, nearly all alive today (American Indians) who are not mixed with others coming later, are from northern Siberia.

    European Americans, African Americans, Asian Americans and Siberian Americans.

    Give those early travelers some credit. It was a long and cold journey and all the way down to southern Chile, a mighty trek. They wiped out the bigger animals too.

    These SA's (to use initials) are no more indigenous to the Western Hemisphere than horses. The fact that they were here when the Europeans arrived doesn't change that. Various waves of humanity moved out of Africa, we are told, and pretty well wiped out the earlier versions of those along the way.

    Being the first to arrive doesn't give them special status. When invaders are more numerous, stronger, better educated and more advanced, they usually prevail. No matter when or where.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @VivaLaMigra, @That Would Be Telling

    European Americans, African Americans, Asian Americans and Siberian Americans.

    These SA’s (to use initials) are no more indigenous to the Western Hemisphere than horses.

    Then are we all indigenous to Africa?

  139. @Muggles
    @Ron Unz


    I’d heard something about the controversy, but now reading the details, the story seems hugely overblown.
     
    Mr. Unz, why is this particular story "overblown"? Because it doesn't involve White politicians speaking honestly about their feelings towards others?

    White politicians would be ridden out of town on a rail (as they used to do), not merely subject to eye popping bad publicity.

    Sure, politicos elsewhere caught on candid conversations might also be discussing bribes, kickbacks and dirty tricks, but this hardly "whitewashes" what the sacred Latina said here. She is openly racist about anyone not looking like her race (though Hispanic is a mongrel "race", not an actual one).

    When you internalize the double standard for hypocrisy then you lose. Are Whites the only people who are held to the highest standards? All others, ho-hum, it's impolite to notice?

    No, Ms. Latinx Council President wasn't plotting murder, okay. Bad mouthing a White gay (okay, maybe correct on the details but still..) and blacks and Koreans. Who did she leave out?

    Yes, and the boodle from LAX must be given to her brown pals. This is the California where hearing of this is mere "overblown" gossip, no big deal.

    Mr. Unz needs to leave California pronto....

    Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic, @Bragadocious

    If I were an old bachelor in a town with a two million dollar admission fee and more money than I could ever spend, I’d wonder what the ruckus over this little dust-up was all about too. Why can’t everybody just learn English and develop fantastic software?

  140. This stuff is hilarious. Also in the news today (in case it wasn’t already posted):

    https://dailycaller.com/2022/10/11/muslim-community-dearbon-school-board/

    • Replies: @VivaLaMigra
    @Anonymous Jew

    What is this place called "Dearborn" of which you speak? Did you mean the city named "Dear-BORN-istan"...?

  141. My mexican friends call me “chango” all the time. What’s the big deal?

  142. And the fringes provide a conundrum for the Regime:

    Transphobic Regime: Biden Regime Still Requires All Trans Women to Register for Draft as Men But Trans Men Are Exempt

    http://www.womensystems.com/2022/10/transphobic-regime-biden-regime-still.html

  143. @The Anti-Gnostic

    Ms. Martinez, who is Latina, compared the Black child of a white council member to a “changuito,” Spanish for little monkey. She also called Oaxacan immigrants living in Koreatown “short little dark people.”
     
    I'm starting to like our Castizo-Futurist American Empire! I wonder what her iSteve handle is.

    Replies: @Dream, @Jack P, @Dmon, @William Badwhite

    I agree. I could be ok with this woman in leadership. I hope none of these Latinos resigns. And nobody should ever, ever accept punishment for what was said in a private conversation.

  144. @fredyetagain aka superhonky
    Lots of Hispanics/Latinos/Latinx or whatever they're called nowadays are grieving tonight. Art Laboe RIP.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Gary in Gramercy

    His record label, true to its name, put out some original sounds:

    • Replies: @Graveldips
    @Gary in Gramercy

    No L.A. punk band ever surpassed that.

  145. @JR Ewing
    @FozzieT

    I aways find it jarring, mainly because - by definition - only a wife can have a husband.

    Gay dudes could just as easily say "spouse" but that takes away the enjoyment of giving the bird to society and human civilization.

    Replies: @VivaLaMigra

    You nailed it. Originally both partners of a “same-sex” marriage were “spouses.” The “his husband” and “her wife” came along to rub the noses of straight people in the gay people’s crap. At the first “gay weddings” the official would say “I now pronounce you married under the laws of such-and-such jurisdiction or state.” Is the new wording “I pronounce you husband and husband”…? “….man and man”…? “..wife and wife” … “woman and woman”… ? For men, how ’bout “I now pronounce you Top and Bottom”…?

  146. @Muggles
    @Steve Sailer

    I have been using (and championing) the use of "Siberian Americans" for the original tribal immigrants to the Western Hemisphere.

    There is some minor debate about early Southern Pacific Islanders (and even west Africans) who may have arrived in this hemisphere but the DNA evidence is pretty sparse. For the most part, nearly all alive today (American Indians) who are not mixed with others coming later, are from northern Siberia.

    European Americans, African Americans, Asian Americans and Siberian Americans.

    Give those early travelers some credit. It was a long and cold journey and all the way down to southern Chile, a mighty trek. They wiped out the bigger animals too.

    These SA's (to use initials) are no more indigenous to the Western Hemisphere than horses. The fact that they were here when the Europeans arrived doesn't change that. Various waves of humanity moved out of Africa, we are told, and pretty well wiped out the earlier versions of those along the way.

    Being the first to arrive doesn't give them special status. When invaders are more numerous, stronger, better educated and more advanced, they usually prevail. No matter when or where.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @VivaLaMigra, @That Would Be Telling

    These SA’s (to use initials) are no more indigenous to the Western Hemisphere than horses.

    Interesting that you mentioned the presence of equines [horses] in the Americas because there is now strong, if not overwhelming, evidence that horses crossed the land bridge into North America some time before the people you termed “SA’s.” However, rather than domesticate them, the newcomers hunted them to extinction. They did without the considerable advantages offered by that species until horses were reintroduced to the continents thousands of years later by the Europeans. Given how the tribes of the plains of North America mastered equestrian arts in relatively short order, using stolen and feral horses to breed their preferred war and hunting ponies, one can only imagine how they could have improved the breed given a millenia or two instead of a few centuries. Considering the magnitude of the potential gain to their culture and standard of living, I sure hope they enjoyed chowing down on Trigger, Mr. Ed, etc.

    • Replies: @James Forrestal
    @VivaLaMigra


    Interesting that you mentioned the presence of equines [horses] in the Americas because there is now strong, if not overwhelming, evidence that horses crossed the land bridge into North America some time before the people you termed “SA’s.”
     
    Horses evolved in the New World and crossed the land bridge in the other direction. The fossil record is very clear on this -- it's been known since the days of Marsh and Huxley in the 1800s.
    The "hunted to extinction" part is likely correct.
  147. @Macumazahn

    She also called Oaxacan immigrants living in Koreatown “short little dark people.”
     
    Clearly the truth is no defense.
    The embattled councilwoman should say simply, "I spoke from my heart, and I spoke the truth. I apologize to no one. I shall have nothing more to say on this issue."
    Never apologize, never retreat. Double down, and spit in their faces.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    Clearly the truth is no defense.

    Saying truthful things that are taboo makes it a worse social crime.

    • Agree: Hunsdon
  148. @Anonymous Jew
    This stuff is hilarious. Also in the news today (in case it wasn’t already posted):

    https://dailycaller.com/2022/10/11/muslim-community-dearbon-school-board/

    Replies: @VivaLaMigra

    What is this place called “Dearborn” of which you speak? Did you mean the city named “Dear-BORN-istan”…?

  149. To think what a backwater Los Angeles was before it had all this beautiful, vibrant diversity.

    • Agree: Renard
  150. Oaxacan Koreans

    She’s not a bad humorist for a loudmouth Latina pol. She noticed some dark, small (probably elderly) Koreans among the K-pop looking wealthly skinny pale ones in Koreatown, and thought of Mexico.

    BTW she didn’t resign from the city council; she only stepped down as its president. I’m sure her constituents don’t care one bit about her racism.

    As for having an ‘asset’ in your district, how about that LA County Museum of Art, enormously funded by the LA County government. Or something, I don’t know.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @smetana


    She’s not a bad humorist for a loudmouth Latina pol. She noticed some dark, small (probably elderly) Koreans among the K-pop looking wealthly skinny pale ones in Koreatown, and thought of Mexico.
     
    Koreatown is a commercial district. Koreans don't actually live in Koreatown. It's like that with "Koreatowns" in NYC and Northern VA, etc.

    The majority population in L.A.'s Koreatown is Hispanic and Asians are only around 1/3.
  151. @Alden
    Bonin was elected in 2013. He’d been chief of staff for the previous council member. Bonin decided not to run again because of “ depression and mental health issues”

    He’s a gay, radical leftist pro criminal Ivy League Harvard Jew from east coast Massachusetts. Who invaded California to help destroy it. Since the 1950s there’s been something similar to the gold rush among radical gay Ivy League east coast Jews. They’re like the gold rush swarms of immigrants. Or sea gulls attacking a dead fish on the beach.

    I never meet so many Ivy League east coast Jews in my life when I was a San Francisco probation officer. We once figured there were more non profit parasites saving criminals from themselves than they were criminals in the county.

    And they’re still swarming to California. The Ivy League radical Jews are more destructive than the black and illegal alien criminals. They rule the state. NYC Chicago San Francisco and Los Angeles are ruled by these radical educated Jews with access to Soros ADL AJC ACLU millions.

    They are destructive and the activists in everything from the pro criminal court system to school bussing to trans bathrooms to the gay movement to destructive environmentalism. A conservative group once researched the CEOs of the 125 largest pro gay organizations in the country. The CEOs of one hundred of those organizations were Jews. Head of the National Teacgers Union is Randi Weingarten proud Jewish lesbian. She’s even been going to Europe to spread her radical revolution in various conferences. She’s a 4th generation east coast radical Jew of course.
    What’s wrong with Jews ? NYC, Chicago Illinois , Los Angeles and a big chunk of Florida are the regional capitals of American Judaism. DC being their national Capitol. Everywhere they go they try to destroy. And usually succeed.

    I’m not prejudiced about certain ethnicities. I’m post judiced. After a lifetime of observation about their destruction of California. As far as the ordinary normal Jews they are hardcore democrat voters and blindly follow every Jewish radical cause from desegregation to trans gender bathrooms . Of all their causes, the one dearest to their hearts is still black criminals.

    I grew up in a Jewish neighborhood always lived in Jewish neighborhoods went to school
    and college with them and dealt with the pro black criminal Ivy League Jewish invaders of San Francisco for 27 years. Their minds accept and believe anything the radical Jewish activists tell them to believe and vote for.

    Replies: @Rob McX

    Harvey Milk was another one who came west from New York, but it didn’t work out too well for him. Damn those Twinkies.

    • Replies: @stillCARealist
    @Rob McX

    didn't work out well for his teen-aged boyfriends, either.

  152. @Gary in Gramercy
    @fredyetagain aka superhonky

    His record label, true to its name, put out some original sounds:

    https://youtu.be/iZExWt-bj-k

    https://youtu.be/TN3gbgz5Av4

    Replies: @Graveldips

    No L.A. punk band ever surpassed that.

  153. @Anonymous
    Forget it.

    It will all be swept down the memory hole, pronto, and a year from now no one, but no one will even remember this tawdry tape, let alone care about it. You see, whitey cannot be construed as the villain here - although you might see some creative and convoluted wordsmithery, from the NYT etc. That's it, the only metric which actually matters, uber alles, to the editors of the American news media. Factual reporting of stories of interest to readers, as you must all know, comes way down the list after sticking it to whitey and fawning all over darkie.

    Remember, if you will, the 'Ramparts' scandal involving the LAPD, a number of years back? Probably not. For a couple of days it was splashed everywhere, the media were positively orgasmic, a new Watergate, George Floyd and Russiagate all rolled into one. Soon dropped like a hot potato with nary a squeak issued since. The reason? All of the baddies involved were 'persons of color'. You can't have that, can you?

    Replies: @AceDeuce

    You’re right about the Rampart LAPD scandal, as well as other bad conduct scandals in the 1990s LAPD, being conducted by negroes and tacoeaters.

    As you said, that got it swept under the rug at the time, but now, 25-30 years later, the MSM will trot out the Rampart scandal as an example of LAPD malfeasance, without mentioning the ethnicity of the bad actors, allowing the mouthbreathers to infer that YT was at it again.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @AceDeuce

    The two fictionalized Oscar-winning movies that are partly based on the LAPD Rampart Scandal, "Training Day" and "Crash," are more honest.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  154. OT: Another film about the most important murder victim ever, although focused on his mother:

    Film ‘TILL’ featured at Mill Valley Film Festival

    MILL VALLEY, Calif. (KRON) — The 45th year of the Mill Valley Film Festival is underway, and a new film honoring the legacy of Emmett Till was featured on Tuesday night.

    “TILL” is the true and tragic story of Mamie Till Bradley, the mother of 14-year-old Emmett Till who was brutally murdered after allegedly hitting on a white woman in Mississippi in the summer of 1955.

    More:

    https://www.kron4.com/news/film-till-featured-at-mill-valley-film-festival/

  155. @The Anti-Gnostic

    Ms. Martinez, who is Latina, compared the Black child of a white council member to a “changuito,” Spanish for little monkey. She also called Oaxacan immigrants living in Koreatown “short little dark people.”
     
    I'm starting to like our Castizo-Futurist American Empire! I wonder what her iSteve handle is.

    Replies: @Dream, @Jack P, @Dmon, @William Badwhite

    Is it too late to get her on the ballot for Governor? And to round out the ticket, a guy who could show her how it’s done. The greatest Lt. Governor in California History – Cruz Bustamente.

    https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2001/02/racial-correctness/

    “On February 13, in a speech to a group of black trade unionists, Bustamante was reciting a list of African-American labor organizations established in the early 1900s, many of which included the word “Negro” in their titles. While uttering one of those names, Bustamante let slip the word “——” instead of ‘negro.’ A handful of blacks in the audience stormed out in protest, and Bustamante has been apologizing up and down the state ever since.

    A legion of black and Latino officials rushed to the defense of Bustamante, the state’s first Latino lieutenant governor, citing his excellent record on affirmative action and relations with the African American community…”

  156. stillCARealist [AKA "ForeverCARealist"] says:
    @Rob McX
    @Alden

    Harvey Milk was another one who came west from New York, but it didn't work out too well for him. Damn those Twinkies.

    Replies: @stillCARealist

    didn’t work out well for his teen-aged boyfriends, either.

  157. Mike Bonin is responsible for removing one lane of traffic in each direction from Venice Blvd. right in the middle of one of the busiest stretches in West L.A. and turning them into bike lanes. If any religion has any grain of accuracy, he will be forced to sit eternally in an overheating car with no air conditioning in bumper to bumper traffic while fat sweaty cyclists in skintight spandex shorts dart into the traffic lanes, ignore the signals and scream obscenities at him every time he tries to pull into the bike lane to pass.

  158. @guest007
    @AnotherDad

    So is the argument that the kid would be better off in foster care or adopted by a blue collar mother with no husband than being adopted by rich people.

    Replies: @Brutusale, @AnotherDad, @Mike Tre, @Thea

    So is the argument that the kid would be better off in foster care or adopted by a blue collar mother with no husband than being adopted by rich people.

    The argument is exactly what I said:

    The kid is–better off or not–is a virtue signaling accessory–as she said.

  159. @Steve Richter
    recent episode of soft white underbelly on youtube. Mexican American in LA recounts how he and 4 others burned down the house of an African American family and a "couple of them passed away"
    https://youtu.be/9QMNdJ60ZjE?t=228

    Replies: @fnn

    “soft white underbelly”

    Haha An allusion to another one of Churchill’s plans that turned out to be a big mistake-the invasion of Italy. Probably not related to the fact that Hitler is still fairly popular in Mexico.

  160. @J.Ross
    OT -- It is being claimed that there are huge protests all over Europe over the boomerang sanctions and NATO adventurism; the lyingpress isn't reporting on it.

    https://twitter.com/chan_chinese/status/1579010320450084864

    https://twitter.com/Resist_05/status/1579594844095545344

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeYlSg3m6z4

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euixh2Y8nXA

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Afl6yjS39XQ

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfCEnAchKtI

    Replies: @Curle

    Wow, those people really hate OUR DEMOCRACY don’t they?

  161. @Muggles
    @Ron Unz


    I’d heard something about the controversy, but now reading the details, the story seems hugely overblown.
     
    Mr. Unz, why is this particular story "overblown"? Because it doesn't involve White politicians speaking honestly about their feelings towards others?

    White politicians would be ridden out of town on a rail (as they used to do), not merely subject to eye popping bad publicity.

    Sure, politicos elsewhere caught on candid conversations might also be discussing bribes, kickbacks and dirty tricks, but this hardly "whitewashes" what the sacred Latina said here. She is openly racist about anyone not looking like her race (though Hispanic is a mongrel "race", not an actual one).

    When you internalize the double standard for hypocrisy then you lose. Are Whites the only people who are held to the highest standards? All others, ho-hum, it's impolite to notice?

    No, Ms. Latinx Council President wasn't plotting murder, okay. Bad mouthing a White gay (okay, maybe correct on the details but still..) and blacks and Koreans. Who did she leave out?

    Yes, and the boodle from LAX must be given to her brown pals. This is the California where hearing of this is mere "overblown" gossip, no big deal.

    Mr. Unz needs to leave California pronto....

    Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic, @Bragadocious

    RU is if nothing else the world’s biggest cheerleader for the state of California. Therefore, any story like this which reflects badly on some of its leaders must be minimized or scoffed at. I think Ma Anand Sheela was the same way about Rajneeshpuram.

  162. @AceDeuce
    @Anonymous

    You're right about the Rampart LAPD scandal, as well as other bad conduct scandals in the 1990s LAPD, being conducted by negroes and tacoeaters.

    As you said, that got it swept under the rug at the time, but now, 25-30 years later, the MSM will trot out the Rampart scandal as an example of LAPD malfeasance, without mentioning the ethnicity of the bad actors, allowing the mouthbreathers to infer that YT was at it again.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    The two fictionalized Oscar-winning movies that are partly based on the LAPD Rampart Scandal, “Training Day” and “Crash,” are more honest.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Steve Sailer


    “Training Day” and “Crash,” are more honest.
     
    “Training Day” is not bad, but “Crash” is a joke with cardboard cutouts for characters and phony, contrived moralism masquerading as realism.

    “SouthLAnd” is the best law enforcement portrayal I have ever seen on TV or the silver screen.

  163. @MEH 0910
    @MEH 0910

    https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/[email protected]@._V1_.jpg

    Replies: @Eustace Tilley (not)

    I think I’ll puke up my burrito,
    My taco, empanada, and Frito
    At this dude sitting there
    With his weird, creepy stare
    Putting fear in that little changuito.

    • LOL: duncsbaby
  164. anon[230] • Disclaimer says:
    @Meretricious
    The issue is not whether what the councilwoman said was "racist," but whether there is truth to the claim that SOME Africans do indeed resemble apes.

    The Negro skull, in addition to having a smaller brain volume and thicker cranial bones than that of the East Asian and European, is prognathous, i.e., the lower face projects forward in the manner of an animal's muzzle. The Negro jaw is substantially longer, relative to its width, than the East Asian and European jaw. A feature of the Negro lower jaw is its retention of a vestige of the "simian shelf," a bony region immediately behind the incisors. The simian shelf is a distinguishing characteristic of apes, and it is absent in East Asians and Europeans.

    The Negro pelvis is narrower and longer as it is in an ape.

    The Negro has a larger and shorter neck akin to that of apes.
    The ears are roundish, rather small, standing somewhat high and detached thus approaching the ape form.

    The jaw is larger and stronger and protrudes outward which, along with lower retreating forehead, gives a facial angle of 68 to 70 degrees, like an ape, as opposed to a facial angle of 80 to 82 degrees for East Asians and Europeans.

    Finally, there is the large booty of black females that resemble that of the gorilla and other apes.

    Replies: @anon

    The Negro skull, in addition to having a smaller brain volume and thicker cranial bones than that of the East Asian and European, is prognathous, i.e., the lower face projects forward in the manner of an animal’s muzzle.

    Do blacks have thicker skulls than whites and asians? Would that allow them to better withstand blows to the head? One sees disturbingly violent videos of blacks in street fights and they rarely get phased from punches and kicks to the head.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @anon

    Australian aborigines have quite thick skulls. Don't know about the rest of the world, but I believe Australians are the outliers.

    Replies: @Corvinus

    , @Graveldips
    @anon

    I have read that the British Army, which used to have a lot of experience in this matter, was aware of the difficulty of killing a African with a rifle butt to the head, and trained its men accordingly.

    , @Eustace Tilley (not)
    @anon

    For what it's worth: I have a very close and longstanding friend who has been an
    MRI tech at a major metropolitan university hospital for decades.

    She absolutely assures me the Blacks, in general, have thicker skulls than Caucasians. And she is most emphatically not a "racist".

    , @Twinkie
    @anon


    Do blacks have thicker skulls than whites and asians?
     
    Blacks have thicker bones and higher bone density, but the picture with the skull is mixed:

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9024231/

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28548276/

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1155589/

    The sex differences are variable, but in certain age groups the females in both races have significatly thicker parietal and occipital bones than their male counterpart. The frontal bone is thicker in the white male than in the black, and the parietooccipital thicker in the blacks than in the whites.
     
    By the way, skull thickness probably plays a role in resisting blows to the head and the consequent brain damage, but likely isn't the most relevant factor in resisting being knocked out. Jaw and neck instability probably plays a greater role (note that women have thicker skulls than men, but are much worse at resisting the impact of blows to the head).

    For what it's worth, when I used to box, blacks at the gym weren't the hardiest boxers of the bunch. Mexicans and Asians seemed to be better at taking a beating and still keeping on ticking. :) A lot more of the black boxers, though, had that natural thudding punching power (understand, however, that you can develop punching power with correct biomechanics and "inducing collisions" with footwork/angles). Ceteris paribus, bone density, especially wrist bone density, seems to play a role in punching power.
  165. @guest007
    Since Ms. Nury Martinez graduated from a public high school that is 96% Latino and graduated from Cal St Northridge (50% six year graduate rate for Latinos), she did not learn how to modify here statements to not sound so bigoted.

    What is also strange is there is a picture of her Facebook page of a husband but no mention in any media story, wikipage, etc.

    Replies: @Curle

    “she did not learn how to modify here statements to not sound so bigoted.”

    Sure she did, any examples of her saying such things in public?

    She was speaking privately to fellow Mexicans who, apparently, say such things.

    • Replies: @guest007
    @Curle

    Speaking to three colleagues in addition to whoever record the meeting is not really private. Once one has gone past two people, everyone should remember to always be on their best behavior.

  166. @animalogic
    @Ron Unz

    Sorry, but this conversation is indicative of structural corruption.
    Politicians should never be in charge voting redistribution.
    Such matters should be settled by a nonpolitical administrative body, based upon strict rules & demographic facts.

    Replies: @Curle

    “Such matters should be settled by a nonpolitical administrative body, based upon strict rules & demographic facts.”

    You’re joking, right? Courts, which are administrative bodies, can’t figure out how to create majority minority districts without creating bizarre gerrymandered districts. Someone has to choose the relevant demographic facts. Best solution I’ve heard of involves computer programs that are programmed for one task, creating a map of compact boundaries based solely on registered voters.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Curle


    Courts, which are administrative bodies, can’t figure out how to create majority minority districts...
     
    First rule of gerrymandering: concentrate as much of the opposition into as few districts as possible, leaving more-- with necessarily thinner majorities-- for you.

    "Majority-minority" is a feature, not a bug!
    , @animalogic
    @Curle

    No not joking.
    In Australia (at a federal level, at least) that's the way it's done. No one seems to have many complaints, at least to my knowledge.

  167. Steve said:

    For example, the term “mestizo” is extremely useful to Mexicans, but it strikes NYT subscribers as a racial slur.

    I have a friend from Columbia who was talking to me about a fellow Columbian (at a restaurant) who was very Anglo looking. He used some Spanish word to describe her ancestry and used “mestizo” to describe his own. I was slightly surprised because I thought the word might be insulting or outmoded, but he said it very matter of factly. Apparently he isn’t ashamed of being mestizo.

    • Replies: @Prester John
    @J1234

    "Mestizo" simply denotes a certain racial classification, no more or less. I mean, who cares? On the other hand, to the ostensibly well-educated subscriber to the NYT who wears his/her racial sensitivity like a badge of honor, when it comes to this sort of thing being on the "correct" side is important to their well-being and self-esteem.

    , @Jenner Ickham Errican
    @J1234


    I have a friend from Columbia who was talking to me about a fellow Columbian (at a restaurant) who was very Anglo looking.
     
    Anglo-looking is perhaps not unheard of from Columbia, but yeah, there are most likely proportionately more "Anglos", at say, Dartmouth.
  168. @anon
    @Meretricious


    The Negro skull, in addition to having a smaller brain volume and thicker cranial bones than that of the East Asian and European, is prognathous, i.e., the lower face projects forward in the manner of an animal’s muzzle.
     
    Do blacks have thicker skulls than whites and asians? Would that allow them to better withstand blows to the head? One sees disturbingly violent videos of blacks in street fights and they rarely get phased from punches and kicks to the head.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Graveldips, @Eustace Tilley (not), @Twinkie

    Australian aborigines have quite thick skulls. Don’t know about the rest of the world, but I believe Australians are the outliers.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @Steve Sailer

    I would say whites overall have thick skulls, especially those on your side of the bell curve, the Coalition of the Right Fringe.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/munn-family-capitol-riot-sentencing-federal-court-2022-10?amp

    https://apnews.com/article/shootings-school-connecticut-conspiracy-alex-jones-3f579380515fdd6eb59f5bf0e3e1c08f

    How can you say that [January 6th wasn't an armed insurrection] but also claim to support the police?"
    @CHueyBurns asks GOP Sen. Ron Johnson. “There weren't thousands of armed insurrectionists," Johnson says, doubling down on the false claim, as he runs for re-election.

    **Herschel Walker said in an interview that people should know of “my military, uh, career,” how “I was doing a lot of things in the military." He never had a military career. He gave mental health speeches at bases as a paid spokesman for a corporation.

    **Token black man. Had to include him to raise my Pokémon diversity credit score.

    Replies: @AceDeuce

  169. @MEH 0910
    @MEH 0910

    https://twitter.com/mikebonin/status/1579553123999571968

    Brüno (3/10) Movie CLIP - Mexican Chair People (2009) HD
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc3H4UkkZgk


    Paula Abdul meets with Bruno (Sacha Baron Cohen) for an interview while sitting on some living furniture.
     
    https://twitter.com/mikebonin/status/1579640350473605120

    Replies: @duncsbaby

    Mike Bonin must be over the moon w/joy knowing he’s an oppressed minority in this immoral play. I dare say he’s gotten a few bonins just thinking about his now sacred status.

  170. Anonymous[954] • Disclaimer says:

    Surprisingly few blacks as well as a dinky mob in and outside the city council yesterday.

    I noticed a few of the offended Mexican Oompa Loompas from Korea Town were there also.

    The viewer can identify them easily, as they are all wee, roly-poly, and cute as a bug in a rug.

    • Replies: @Ancient Briton
    @Anonymous

    This seems like an SNL sketch - when they were actually funny!

  171. @anon
    @Meretricious


    The Negro skull, in addition to having a smaller brain volume and thicker cranial bones than that of the East Asian and European, is prognathous, i.e., the lower face projects forward in the manner of an animal’s muzzle.
     
    Do blacks have thicker skulls than whites and asians? Would that allow them to better withstand blows to the head? One sees disturbingly violent videos of blacks in street fights and they rarely get phased from punches and kicks to the head.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Graveldips, @Eustace Tilley (not), @Twinkie

    I have read that the British Army, which used to have a lot of experience in this matter, was aware of the difficulty of killing a African with a rifle butt to the head, and trained its men accordingly.

  172. Anonymous[954] • Disclaimer says:

    Damn!

    All the damned racism in Los Angeles these days!

    As an Angeleno, it feels like I’m living in a Mexican Mississippi Burning!

    The racist city council members don’t want to do what’s right, because they think they’re ultimately above it, and I’m appalled at how few Angelenos are demonstrating, not to mention NO representation of Black Lives Matter, against these Mexican Bull Conner’s.

    If BLM is afraid to show up, despite the most egregious show of bald-faced Mexican racism, I think it demonstrates that these city council members are capable of retribution that even BLM wants no part of!

    Maybe I’m just caught up in the moment, but it’s almost as if they think of themselves as “The Race,” implicitly meaning theirs is superior to all others, and inevitably destined to dominate our entire American political process!

    I know it could never happen, but that’s how it feels, anyway.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    @Anonymous


    All the damned racism in Los Angeles these days!

    As an Angeleno, it feels like I’m living in a Mexican Mississippi Burning!

    The racist city council members don’t want to do what’s right, because they think they’re ultimately above it, and I’m appalled at how few Angelenos are demonstrating, not to mention NO representation of Black Lives Matter, against these Mexican Bull Conner’s.
     
    I assume this comment is just satire, but the whole controversy really does seem like a tempest in a teapot. Yet it's gotten into the New York Times two days in a row! Meanwhile, nobody seems to really care that much about the serious risk of nuclear war with Russia:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g57ViSqmRFM

    Or the true origins of the Covid epidemic that killed over a million Americans:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=morj-3rdWwM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtfIIG8iYIk

    https://www.unz.com/runz/jeffrey-sachs-as-righteous-rogue-elephant/

    Replies: @Graveldips, @Corvinus, @Twinkie

  173. @guest007
    @AnotherDad

    So is the argument that the kid would be better off in foster care or adopted by a blue collar mother with no husband than being adopted by rich people.

    Replies: @Brutusale, @AnotherDad, @Mike Tre, @Thea

    No one said that you silly troll. And you must be suffering from some significant side effects of Lithium to suggest that a court would grant adoption to some random single parent.

    • Replies: @guest007
    @Mike Tre

    In less that a minute of Googling:

    "M0re than a quarter of the children adopted from foster care in Federal fiscal year (FFY) 2017 were adopted by single people—almost 15,000 single women and nearly 2,000 single men adopted children from foster care in FFY 2017. This factsheet discusses issues that are specifically relevant to single people considering adoption. It includes information about available adoption opportunities, including domestic adoption, intercountry adoption, and adopting from foster care. It also discusses the importance of having a support system and dispels the myth that being single impedes the adoption process."

    https://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/single-parent/

    A single black mother would be ahead of two white guys in adopting a black child. The problem is that adopting seems to be a white thing.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/633483/racial-distribution-of-adopted-children-us/

  174. @Bill Jones
    One of the things about Fringes is that they fray.
    There's a step too far for everybody.

    J.K. Rowling slams celebrities for supporting trans charity despite its link to pedophilia advocate
     
    http://www.yourdestinationnow.com/2022/10/jk-rowling-slams-celebrities-for.html

    Replies: @Cool Daddy Jimbo

    Who would have guessed that the nice lady who wrote the Harry Potter books would turn out to be one of the bravest people on planet Earth!

    • Replies: @Bill Jones
    @Cool Daddy Jimbo

    One of the things I hear about Rowling is that she has balls of steel and is not to be fucked with.

  175. @Ron Unz
    I'd heard something about the controversy, but now reading the details, the story seems hugely overblown.

    I'd assumed that the Council members had been throwing around vicious racial slurs, but it sounds like they were merely talking candidly in private like you'd expect local politicians to do, or most other hard-boiled people for that matter. Would a tape recording of the private conversations of police officers or fire fighters or construction workers be any different? I'd bet that even many university faculty lounges would sometimes have this sort of conversation. If everyone is a thought criminal then no one is a thought-criminal.

    Similarly, the "secret tapes" of President Richard Nixon mostly had him talking in private the way most other politicians talked, but the media presented it as being horrific.

    Obviously, these days people can easily get purged for just speaking plainly in private. But it sounds like none of the Council members are planning to resign, so maybe the whole thing will fade away.

    I'd bet that in lots of cities the private conversations would involve plans for massive corruption and bribery rather than this sort of ordinary political horse-trading.

    Replies: @ic1000, @R.G. Camara, @animalogic, @Muggles, @Jim Bob Lassiter

    “Would a tape recording of the private conversations of police officers or fire fighters or construction workers be any different?”

    Channeling my best Jack Nicholson here:

    You’re Goddamned right such recordings would be different MISTER Unz. All of those “little people” would be fired and most rendered unemployable in their chosen profession. There would be crowds of BLM or whatever type protestors along with TV news crews clogging the residential streets of their neighborhoods at 7 AM as their kids were leaving for school. You need to review your standards.

  176. @anon
    @Meretricious


    The Negro skull, in addition to having a smaller brain volume and thicker cranial bones than that of the East Asian and European, is prognathous, i.e., the lower face projects forward in the manner of an animal’s muzzle.
     
    Do blacks have thicker skulls than whites and asians? Would that allow them to better withstand blows to the head? One sees disturbingly violent videos of blacks in street fights and they rarely get phased from punches and kicks to the head.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Graveldips, @Eustace Tilley (not), @Twinkie

    For what it’s worth: I have a very close and longstanding friend who has been an
    MRI tech at a major metropolitan university hospital for decades.

    She absolutely assures me the Blacks, in general, have thicker skulls than Caucasians. And she is most emphatically not a “racist”.

  177. @Mike Tre
    @guest007

    No one said that you silly troll. And you must be suffering from some significant side effects of Lithium to suggest that a court would grant adoption to some random single parent.

    Replies: @guest007

    In less that a minute of Googling:

    “M0re than a quarter of the children adopted from foster care in Federal fiscal year (FFY) 2017 were adopted by single people—almost 15,000 single women and nearly 2,000 single men adopted children from foster care in FFY 2017. This factsheet discusses issues that are specifically relevant to single people considering adoption. It includes information about available adoption opportunities, including domestic adoption, intercountry adoption, and adopting from foster care. It also discusses the importance of having a support system and dispels the myth that being single impedes the adoption process.”

    https://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/single-parent/

    A single black mother would be ahead of two white guys in adopting a black child. The problem is that adopting seems to be a white thing.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/633483/racial-distribution-of-adopted-children-us/

  178. @stillCARealist
    @guest007

    Wait, so in the US we have Native Americans, which are sacred, but in MX they don't have Native Mexicans, also sacred?

    I wonder if they name their sports teams after the natives' tribal names, or whatever. I'll bet every badass team wants to be the Aztecs. "We'll eat your hearts out!"

    Replies: @guest007

    Soccer teams usually do not have mascots like American teams do. But pro basketball league in Mexico does have mascots but seems to like birds more than tribal names.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liga_Nacional_de_Baloncesto_Profesional

  179. @Curle
    @guest007

    “she did not learn how to modify here statements to not sound so bigoted.”

    Sure she did, any examples of her saying such things in public?

    She was speaking privately to fellow Mexicans who, apparently, say such things.

    Replies: @guest007

    Speaking to three colleagues in addition to whoever record the meeting is not really private. Once one has gone past two people, everyone should remember to always be on their best behavior.

  180. @R.G. Camara
    @Ron Unz

    Selective outrage/selective prosecution is the key. It has to be an organized, concerted effort to drum up false outrage, like a high school girl using an out of context joke to purge a popular girl from her position in the clique. A true conspiracy.

    Nixon's statements on the tapes weren't bad, but the media types pretended to get all the vapors about them, because they hated Nixon. Just as with here, the reporters hear this crap all the time from these LA Council folks, but someone wanted her out, so organized a bunch of reporters to pretend to be outraged and make a bigger deal of it. Or with Trump, where his every action was met with perpetual screeching, even when Obama or Hilary or W. or someone before him had done the exact same.

    Shades of Casablanca: "I am shocked, shocked, to find that gambling is going on here."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjbPi00k_ME

    So, if you care about this, the question is: who wanted this chick out, why, and how much did it cost them? It's a conspiracy for political power. So who ran the conspiracy, who was in on it, and who's just a useful idiot following along? Watch who gets rewarded the most.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Anonymous, @Prester John

    The same reasoning applies to Trump. Trump’s gravest, most mortal of Mortal Sins, was to cross swords with the so-called “political establishment.” In this country (as in most so-called “democracies”) one does so at one’s peril. And Trump is experiencing the consequences.

    In the end, it’s all about power. The only question is: Who will wield it?

    • Replies: @Malla
    @Prester John


    In this country (as in most so-called “democracies”)
     
    This struggle for power is the same in Communist party run countries, Islamic theocracies etc...
  181. @J1234
    Steve said:

    For example, the term “mestizo” is extremely useful to Mexicans, but it strikes NYT subscribers as a racial slur.
     
    I have a friend from Columbia who was talking to me about a fellow Columbian (at a restaurant) who was very Anglo looking. He used some Spanish word to describe her ancestry and used "mestizo" to describe his own. I was slightly surprised because I thought the word might be insulting or outmoded, but he said it very matter of factly. Apparently he isn't ashamed of being mestizo.

    Replies: @Prester John, @Jenner Ickham Errican

    “Mestizo” simply denotes a certain racial classification, no more or less. I mean, who cares? On the other hand, to the ostensibly well-educated subscriber to the NYT who wears his/her racial sensitivity like a badge of honor, when it comes to this sort of thing being on the “correct” side is important to their well-being and self-esteem.

  182. @guest007
    @AnotherDad

    So is the argument that the kid would be better off in foster care or adopted by a blue collar mother with no husband than being adopted by rich people.

    Replies: @Brutusale, @AnotherDad, @Mike Tre, @Thea

    Blue collar parents are perfectly good parents. Wealth has never been shown to be beneficial to children in and of itself. This has been used to remove a white child from a working class single dad in Texas and give her to liberal infertile nitwits in California. The slut mom lied to the adoption agency and the argument of the adoptive parents was that they could provide a better(wealthier) life than the biological dad. Disgusting!

    Homosexuals are unstable and deranged.

    Black women really resent this sort of virtue signaling. Many are very aware of what is going on and are livid. Look at Charlize Theron trying to turn her son into a girl. Raising black children to increase the parent’s social standing is child abuse. Foster care would be better in such cases.

    • Replies: @guest007
    @Thea

    Ben Wattenberg, who was with the American Enterprises Institute, made a career of showing that wealthier parents did a better job, on average, because they were not under financial stress. Also, blue collar families are more likely to divorce and have a wide variety of issues. Wealthier families have more of what Robert Putnam (Bowling Alone) calls parental bubble wrap for children.

    And virtually no child is better off in foster care instead of with two parents.

  183. @Alden
    @Phil Wilson

    Right the MLK parade must have been in January 10 months ago. I guess the Jewish LGBTQ black insane coalition feels threatened by the much more normal Hispanic heterosexuals. Black kids are hyperactive defiant disobedient brats. It’s amazing the dangerous situations they get themselves into. Has anyone checked how old the kid is? Seems like he’s young enough one of his daddies should have been with him on the float. And couldn’t control him.

    Most non black young kids are very shy and subdued in situations like riding in a float in a parade. Not black kids. Everywhere they go they’re screaming and running around. When I first retired I went to all the museums in town. During the week when the school kids went to the museums on field trips. The White Hispanic and asian kids all got off the bus quietly, stood quietly in line and did what the teachers and chaperones told them to do.

    The black kids charged pell mell off the bus screaming and continued screaming and running around wrestling and making spectacles of themselves the entire time they were at the museum.

    Replies: @Colin Wright

    ‘…Most non black young kids are very shy and subdued in situations like riding in a float in a parade. Not black kids…’

    I saw the same difference in Paris — albeit not as extreme as what you describe.

    We were in one of the big art museums, and — not unreasonably — eventually school classes started coming in.

    With the white kids, the liveliness level of the crowd rose perceptibly — you just can’t expect twelve year olds to be sedate. That was okay, if not exactly good.

    The classes containing black kids were a different matter. They were literally acting as if the museum were a playground.

  184. @smetana

    Oaxacan Koreans
     
    She's not a bad humorist for a loudmouth Latina pol. She noticed some dark, small (probably elderly) Koreans among the K-pop looking wealthly skinny pale ones in Koreatown, and thought of Mexico.

    BTW she didn't resign from the city council; she only stepped down as its president. I'm sure her constituents don't care one bit about her racism.


    As for having an 'asset' in your district, how about that LA County Museum of Art, enormously funded by the LA County government. Or something, I don't know.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    She’s not a bad humorist for a loudmouth Latina pol. She noticed some dark, small (probably elderly) Koreans among the K-pop looking wealthly skinny pale ones in Koreatown, and thought of Mexico.

    Koreatown is a commercial district. Koreans don’t actually live in Koreatown. It’s like that with “Koreatowns” in NYC and Northern VA, etc.

    The majority population in L.A.’s Koreatown is Hispanic and Asians are only around 1/3.

  185. @anon
    @Meretricious


    The Negro skull, in addition to having a smaller brain volume and thicker cranial bones than that of the East Asian and European, is prognathous, i.e., the lower face projects forward in the manner of an animal’s muzzle.
     
    Do blacks have thicker skulls than whites and asians? Would that allow them to better withstand blows to the head? One sees disturbingly violent videos of blacks in street fights and they rarely get phased from punches and kicks to the head.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Graveldips, @Eustace Tilley (not), @Twinkie

    Do blacks have thicker skulls than whites and asians?

    Blacks have thicker bones and higher bone density, but the picture with the skull is mixed:

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9024231/

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28548276/

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1155589/

    The sex differences are variable, but in certain age groups the females in both races have significatly thicker parietal and occipital bones than their male counterpart. The frontal bone is thicker in the white male than in the black, and the parietooccipital thicker in the blacks than in the whites.

    By the way, skull thickness probably plays a role in resisting blows to the head and the consequent brain damage, but likely isn’t the most relevant factor in resisting being knocked out. Jaw and neck instability probably plays a greater role (note that women have thicker skulls than men, but are much worse at resisting the impact of blows to the head).

    For what it’s worth, when I used to box, blacks at the gym weren’t the hardiest boxers of the bunch. Mexicans and Asians seemed to be better at taking a beating and still keeping on ticking. 🙂 A lot more of the black boxers, though, had that natural thudding punching power (understand, however, that you can develop punching power with correct biomechanics and “inducing collisions” with footwork/angles). Ceteris paribus, bone density, especially wrist bone density, seems to play a role in punching power.

  186. @Anonymous
    Damn!

    All the damned racism in Los Angeles these days!

    As an Angeleno, it feels like I’m living in a Mexican Mississippi Burning!

    The racist city council members don’t want to do what’s right, because they think they’re ultimately above it, and I’m appalled at how few Angelenos are demonstrating, not to mention NO representation of Black Lives Matter, against these Mexican Bull Conner's.

    If BLM is afraid to show up, despite the most egregious show of bald-faced Mexican racism, I think it demonstrates that these city council members are capable of retribution that even BLM wants no part of!

    Maybe I'm just caught up in the moment, but it's almost as if they think of themselves as "The Race," implicitly meaning theirs is superior to all others, and inevitably destined to dominate our entire American political process!

    I know it could never happen, but that’s how it feels, anyway.

    https://youtu.be/jLKOaKtC6uI

    Replies: @Ron Unz

    All the damned racism in Los Angeles these days!

    As an Angeleno, it feels like I’m living in a Mexican Mississippi Burning!

    The racist city council members don’t want to do what’s right, because they think they’re ultimately above it, and I’m appalled at how few Angelenos are demonstrating, not to mention NO representation of Black Lives Matter, against these Mexican Bull Conner’s.

    I assume this comment is just satire, but the whole controversy really does seem like a tempest in a teapot. Yet it’s gotten into the New York Times two days in a row! Meanwhile, nobody seems to really care that much about the serious risk of nuclear war with Russia:

    Or the true origins of the Covid epidemic that killed over a million Americans:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/jeffrey-sachs-as-righteous-rogue-elephant/

    • Replies: @Graveldips
    @Ron Unz

    Isn't every racism story a tempest in a teapot? This time, for a change of pace, the shoe is on the other foot. We've not forgotten about Ukraine, but let us read the funnies as well as the front page.

    , @Corvinus
    @Ron Unz

    “Meanwhile, nobody seems to really care that much about the serious risk of nuclear war with Russia”

    Quite a few folks do care. But Occam’s Razor says that Putin will not risk Chinese intervention, crushing global sanctions, and the destruction of his own country just for some territory from his next door neighbor.

    Besides, Ukraine isn’t a real country and it certainly doesn’t have sovereignty. Just ask some of the posters here on this fine opinion webzine.

    And, if by some miracle there’s a nuclear war, it’s God’s Will. The rapture cometh. Glory to Him to purge the Earth of globohomo. That’s not my opinion, but the sentiments of some of the Unz commentariat.

    , @Twinkie
    @Ron Unz


    the serious risk of nuclear war with Russia
     
    Why would Russia need to resort to nuclear weapons when it is winning the war with such low casualties? ;)

    Replies: @Ron Unz

  187. @Thea
    @guest007

    Blue collar parents are perfectly good parents. Wealth has never been shown to be beneficial to children in and of itself. This has been used to remove a white child from a working class single dad in Texas and give her to liberal infertile nitwits in California. The slut mom lied to the adoption agency and the argument of the adoptive parents was that they could provide a better(wealthier) life than the biological dad. Disgusting!

    Homosexuals are unstable and deranged.


    Black women really resent this sort of virtue signaling. Many are very aware of what is going on and are livid. Look at Charlize Theron trying to turn her son into a girl. Raising black children to increase the parent’s social standing is child abuse. Foster care would be better in such cases.

    Replies: @guest007

    Ben Wattenberg, who was with the American Enterprises Institute, made a career of showing that wealthier parents did a better job, on average, because they were not under financial stress. Also, blue collar families are more likely to divorce and have a wide variety of issues. Wealthier families have more of what Robert Putnam (Bowling Alone) calls parental bubble wrap for children.

    And virtually no child is better off in foster care instead of with two parents.

  188. @Ron Unz
    @Anonymous


    All the damned racism in Los Angeles these days!

    As an Angeleno, it feels like I’m living in a Mexican Mississippi Burning!

    The racist city council members don’t want to do what’s right, because they think they’re ultimately above it, and I’m appalled at how few Angelenos are demonstrating, not to mention NO representation of Black Lives Matter, against these Mexican Bull Conner’s.
     
    I assume this comment is just satire, but the whole controversy really does seem like a tempest in a teapot. Yet it's gotten into the New York Times two days in a row! Meanwhile, nobody seems to really care that much about the serious risk of nuclear war with Russia:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g57ViSqmRFM

    Or the true origins of the Covid epidemic that killed over a million Americans:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=morj-3rdWwM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtfIIG8iYIk

    https://www.unz.com/runz/jeffrey-sachs-as-righteous-rogue-elephant/

    Replies: @Graveldips, @Corvinus, @Twinkie

    Isn’t every racism story a tempest in a teapot? This time, for a change of pace, the shoe is on the other foot. We’ve not forgotten about Ukraine, but let us read the funnies as well as the front page.

  189. @Prester John
    @R.G. Camara

    The same reasoning applies to Trump. Trump's gravest, most mortal of Mortal Sins, was to cross swords with the so-called "political establishment." In this country (as in most so-called "democracies") one does so at one's peril. And Trump is experiencing the consequences.

    In the end, it's all about power. The only question is: Who will wield it?

    Replies: @Malla

    In this country (as in most so-called “democracies”)

    This struggle for power is the same in Communist party run countries, Islamic theocracies etc…

  190. @Anonymous

    Ms. Martinez is fairly blanca herself
     
    Wtf? This isn't the first time you've said such a thing.

    Anyway the constant use of the word "little" in the recorded statements by these Hispanics is telling, because Hispanics are the most dimunitive ethnic group in America. It's clear to me that this bullshit is driven by the massive inferiority complex that Mexicans have, which is why they have an extremely deleterious effect on any social institution that they contaminate.

    Replies: @Colin Wright, @Dennis Dale

    She’s not bad looking, with caucasoid features.

    Mexicans don’t have a “massive inferiority complex” (like whites), but they do resent white intelligence and, probably, looks. Though this is nowhere near as evident as, say, the general disdain and resentment Blacks! have for everyone else. Still, Mexicans mix well enough with white people absent the current dysfunction in America.

    Mexican attitudes toward Blacks! are distinctly superior. And they aren’t afraid to fight. Just sayin’

    They don’t have to be shitty little gremlins for us to oppose being replaced by them.

  191. @J1234
    Steve said:

    For example, the term “mestizo” is extremely useful to Mexicans, but it strikes NYT subscribers as a racial slur.
     
    I have a friend from Columbia who was talking to me about a fellow Columbian (at a restaurant) who was very Anglo looking. He used some Spanish word to describe her ancestry and used "mestizo" to describe his own. I was slightly surprised because I thought the word might be insulting or outmoded, but he said it very matter of factly. Apparently he isn't ashamed of being mestizo.

    Replies: @Prester John, @Jenner Ickham Errican

    I have a friend from Columbia who was talking to me about a fellow Columbian (at a restaurant) who was very Anglo looking.

    Anglo-looking is perhaps not unheard of from Columbia, but yeah, there are most likely proportionately more “Anglos”, at say, Dartmouth.

  192. Anonymous[954] • Disclaimer says:
    @MEH 0910
    Watch: Councilman Mike Bonin addresses crowd at LA City Council meeting
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yejako3M1Y

    "First you must resign, then ask forgiveness," Bonin said during an emotionally charged speech to the large crowd who gathered inside of the LA City Council chambers Tuesday.
     

    Replies: @MEH 0910, @Anonymous

    Watch: Councilman Mike Bonin addresses crowd at LA City Council meeting

    I’ve said this time and again to my Jewish friends who become appalled at one perceived slight or another, feel the need to act out, and that is, “never go full Jew.”

    I remember when Mohamed Ali died, and it was announced that Billy Crystal was to deliver the eulogy. I said, “I hope Billy doesn’t screw it up by going “full Jew.” Happily, he didn’t. He did a good job, I thought, because he retrained himself. My Jewish friends were oblivious to what I was talking about, but as someone very capable of going “full Jew” (see Billy’s piss poor “full Jew” performance in “princess bride”) Billy showed amazingly self-aware restraint.

    My observation is related to the Ben Stiller movie, “Rolling Thunder,” the actors are discussing how to properly play a retard, and Robert Downey Jr’s character says, “never go full retard,” the implication being it’s a spectacle that’s too perverse, and even phony, to be accepted by normal people, thereby repulsing the audience, so they can’t empathize with you.

    Unfortunately, Bonin went “full Jew,” with unintentionally comic results.

    Never go “full Jew.”

    Just change the word “retard” to “Jew,” and the reader might agree it’s a great rule for Jews to live by, if they want to be more effective in their time-worn writhing angst routines:

  193. @Muggles
    @Steve Sailer

    I have been using (and championing) the use of "Siberian Americans" for the original tribal immigrants to the Western Hemisphere.

    There is some minor debate about early Southern Pacific Islanders (and even west Africans) who may have arrived in this hemisphere but the DNA evidence is pretty sparse. For the most part, nearly all alive today (American Indians) who are not mixed with others coming later, are from northern Siberia.

    European Americans, African Americans, Asian Americans and Siberian Americans.

    Give those early travelers some credit. It was a long and cold journey and all the way down to southern Chile, a mighty trek. They wiped out the bigger animals too.

    These SA's (to use initials) are no more indigenous to the Western Hemisphere than horses. The fact that they were here when the Europeans arrived doesn't change that. Various waves of humanity moved out of Africa, we are told, and pretty well wiped out the earlier versions of those along the way.

    Being the first to arrive doesn't give them special status. When invaders are more numerous, stronger, better educated and more advanced, they usually prevail. No matter when or where.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @VivaLaMigra, @That Would Be Telling

    These [Siberian Americans] are no more indigenous to the Western Hemisphere than horses…. Various waves of humanity moved out of Africa, we are told, and pretty well wiped out the earlier versions of those along the way.

    Funny thing about that waves concept. All this is from memory, but it’s semi-secret to the extent our ruling trash can suppress it including if I remember correctly siccing the Feds on one archeologist that the current SA’s who as you said made it all the way to Chile wiped out the previous ones who’d come across somewhat earlier.

  194. @Sparkling Wiggle

    Indigenous immigrants
     
    Extraordinary.

    The self-contradiction, the capitalization—it’s perfect.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Raki Rakkoon, @ScarletNumber

    I still remember the meme that inspired your username.

  195. @Steve Sailer
    @anon

    Australian aborigines have quite thick skulls. Don't know about the rest of the world, but I believe Australians are the outliers.

    Replies: @Corvinus

    I would say whites overall have thick skulls, especially those on your side of the bell curve, the Coalition of the Right Fringe.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/munn-family-capitol-riot-sentencing-federal-court-2022-10?amp

    https://apnews.com/article/shootings-school-connecticut-conspiracy-alex-jones-3f579380515fdd6eb59f5bf0e3e1c08f

    How can you say that [January 6th wasn’t an armed insurrection] but also claim to support the police?”
    @CHueyBurns asks GOP Sen. Ron Johnson. “There weren’t thousands of armed insurrectionists,” Johnson says, doubling down on the false claim, as he runs for re-election.

    **Herschel Walker said in an interview that people should know of “my military, uh, career,” how “I was doing a lot of things in the military.” He never had a military career. He gave mental health speeches at bases as a paid spokesman for a corporation.

    **Token black man. Had to include him to raise my Pokémon diversity credit score.

    • Replies: @AceDeuce
    @Corvinus

    RE: Herschel Walker. You're learning. Never trust a negro. Ever.

    Replies: @Corvinus

  196. @Ron Unz
    @Anonymous


    All the damned racism in Los Angeles these days!

    As an Angeleno, it feels like I’m living in a Mexican Mississippi Burning!

    The racist city council members don’t want to do what’s right, because they think they’re ultimately above it, and I’m appalled at how few Angelenos are demonstrating, not to mention NO representation of Black Lives Matter, against these Mexican Bull Conner’s.
     
    I assume this comment is just satire, but the whole controversy really does seem like a tempest in a teapot. Yet it's gotten into the New York Times two days in a row! Meanwhile, nobody seems to really care that much about the serious risk of nuclear war with Russia:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g57ViSqmRFM

    Or the true origins of the Covid epidemic that killed over a million Americans:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=morj-3rdWwM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtfIIG8iYIk

    https://www.unz.com/runz/jeffrey-sachs-as-righteous-rogue-elephant/

    Replies: @Graveldips, @Corvinus, @Twinkie

    “Meanwhile, nobody seems to really care that much about the serious risk of nuclear war with Russia”

    Quite a few folks do care. But Occam’s Razor says that Putin will not risk Chinese intervention, crushing global sanctions, and the destruction of his own country just for some territory from his next door neighbor.

    Besides, Ukraine isn’t a real country and it certainly doesn’t have sovereignty. Just ask some of the posters here on this fine opinion webzine.

    And, if by some miracle there’s a nuclear war, it’s God’s Will. The rapture cometh. Glory to Him to purge the Earth of globohomo. That’s not my opinion, but the sentiments of some of the Unz commentariat.

  197. @mc23
    Lee Kuan Yew, the genius political leader of Singapore said “In multiracial societies, you don't vote in accordance with your economic interests & social interests, you vote in accordance with race.

    It remains to be seen if the United States can pull off his vision.

    Replies: @Corvinus

    “Lee Kuan Yew, the genius political leader of Singapore said “In multiracial societies, you don’t vote in accordance with your economic interests & social interests, you vote in accordance with race.“

    The late, great Madison Grant postulated the existence of three European races, which he defined as Nordic, Alpine, and Mediterranean, as well as their physical and mental characteristics. So, which are you?

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Corvinus


    Lee Kuan Yew, the genius political leader of Singapore said “In multiracial societies, you don’t vote in accordance with your economic interests & social interests, you vote in accordance with race.“
     
    He said “race and religion,” not just race. But his critique was of multiracial democracies, not all multiracial societies. Indeed he was on record as stating that “Malays… Chinese… Indians… all have a place in Singapore” and that “No one has an advantage.” His aim was to build what he called a “multiracial meritocracy.”

    He also said once, “We can integrate all religions and races except Islam.”

    Replies: @Corvinus

  198. @Alden
    @Rob McX

    He’s a Jew. Probably started going to Catholic Church to try to get his black kid into the catholic school instead of the city school. Lots of Protestants seculars and jews start going to church because they want the kids in the parish school instead of the public school system. I live in his district part of the year. And all my Jewish neighbors in the district claim he’s a Jew. Or why they voted for him and keep voting for him.

    Replies: @kaganovitch

    He’s a Jew. Probably started going to Catholic Church to try to get his black kid into the catholic school instead of the city school

    Are you sure? According to wiki his Grandfather was named Constantino.

  199. @Reg Cæsar
    @Citizen of a Silly Country

    Instead of constantly bitching about Steve, why not spell out your own program? What would your concealed carry permit process look like, vis-a-vis race? What fee would each race pay? And, more to the point, how do we get this past the Fourteenth Amendment which, according to the Supreme Court, is the law of the land?


    Do we adopt the laws of Mississippi and Alabama Louisiana and South Carolina, where a majority of blacks can get a permit under race-blind "shall-issue"? "Constitutional carry" (now the policy in the states I crossed out, quite the opposite of just forty years ago) is even more "citizenist"-- you don't even have to file for a permit, just not have any felonies on record-- whatever your race.

    Or should we adopt the policies of much whiter countries? Britain's? Australia's?

    Again, what do we replace the race-blind laws you oppose with? And how?

    And how do we sell this to our fellow citizens? Remember, the McDonald decision, which you oppose and mock, was won for a black gun owner, and the only reason Heller wasn't as well was on a judicial technicality. Most of us cheered, but you were horrified.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Citizen of a Silly Country

    My program is simple. Whites of whatever various flavors start to form their own communities that do their best to gain power in the overall society and eventually to be independent as possible.

    I don’t give a damn about selling that to the majority of whites, much less non-whites. Goodwhites can go to hell. Civic nationalists can live in their fantasyland and feel oh-so-morally-superior as they fail.

    You still believe in the system and that it can be reformed. You want to save the USA. I don’t.

    My program has worked throughout history. Colorblind civic nationalism has never succeeded.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @Citizen of a Silly Country

    “Whites of whatever various flavors start to form their own communities that do their best to gain power in the overall society and eventually to be independent as possible.“

    Again, this is happening already! We continue to make our own decisions about race and culture. You just don’t personally agree with U.S.

  200. We see that white women are not so popular with their fellow diversities, but what about gay white men? There just must be constant, seething resentment.

    When LGBTQ, sex, and race all go into the same “we reserve x% of our slots for diversities” grab bag, white women and gay white men will tend to rise to the top.

    People accepting gays in everyday life is a victory progs are quite proud of, but it’s really a consolation prize. What they wanted was (depending on the level of hostility to core America) for the ghettoes to disappear as blacks became middle-class whites with dark skin, or for the ghettoes unleashed on unsuspecting (or unable to flee) flyover and ethnic whites.

    Black women have been the primary beneficiaries of AA (relative to ability) it’d be nice if we could make black men assimilate, at least to the extent of not shooting people. Do you know how there are advocates for adding tiny amounts of lithium to tap water? Lithium level in water varies around the country. Places with lots of lithium in the water have lower suicide rates, so supplementing lithium for the whole population has positive effects for some people.

    [MORE]

    My point? Better living through chemistry? It is a thing now! If we treat the black murder rate as a public health issue, as many progs and doctor-bureaucratic empire builders would like us to do, then, what is the effect of lithium on the black murder rate/shooting rate?

    Really, a huge chunk of white women are on antidepressants. The black crime problem is hard on the victims, but it’s also hard on the perpetrators, because they end up in prison, or have to always watch out for retaliation, get shot, and end up in a wheelchair… It might be in the interest of society and young black men to find a public health solution, whether lithium would help or it’d take some other drug, there must be a way that black men can be integrated into society. The pharmacopeia is huge, so there must be some old, off-patent drug that makes people less violent without turning them into zombies.

    The “warrior gene” is an allele of a gene that’s a small molecule receptor, right? I believe dopamine? There are a ton of drugs that affect dopamine. Maybe test some old ones on prisoners (with informed consent!) because prisons have lots of violent people, and they are well monitored, so decent data could actually be had.

    • Replies: @anon
    @Rob


    Really, a huge chunk of white women are on antidepressants. The black crime problem is hard on the victims, but it’s also hard on the perpetrators… It might be in the interest of society and young black men to find a public health solution, whether lithium would help or it’d take some other drug, there must be a way that black men can be integrated into society.
     
    The main solution we are promoting is to have white women mate with black men. The offspring should tend to be a happy medium between the two groups.
  201. @Corvinus
    @Steve Sailer

    I would say whites overall have thick skulls, especially those on your side of the bell curve, the Coalition of the Right Fringe.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/munn-family-capitol-riot-sentencing-federal-court-2022-10?amp

    https://apnews.com/article/shootings-school-connecticut-conspiracy-alex-jones-3f579380515fdd6eb59f5bf0e3e1c08f

    How can you say that [January 6th wasn't an armed insurrection] but also claim to support the police?"
    @CHueyBurns asks GOP Sen. Ron Johnson. “There weren't thousands of armed insurrectionists," Johnson says, doubling down on the false claim, as he runs for re-election.

    **Herschel Walker said in an interview that people should know of “my military, uh, career,” how “I was doing a lot of things in the military." He never had a military career. He gave mental health speeches at bases as a paid spokesman for a corporation.

    **Token black man. Had to include him to raise my Pokémon diversity credit score.

    Replies: @AceDeuce

    RE: Herschel Walker. You’re learning. Never trust a negro. Ever.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @AceDeuce

    Even Negroes who support Trump and oppose globohomo?

    Replies: @AceDeuce

  202. anon[769] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rob
    We see that white women are not so popular with their fellow diversities, but what about gay white men? There just must be constant, seething resentment.

    When LGBTQ, sex, and race all go into the same “we reserve x% of our slots for diversities” grab bag, white women and gay white men will tend to rise to the top.

    People accepting gays in everyday life is a victory progs are quite proud of, but it’s really a consolation prize. What they wanted was (depending on the level of hostility to core America) for the ghettoes to disappear as blacks became middle-class whites with dark skin, or for the ghettoes unleashed on unsuspecting (or unable to flee) flyover and ethnic whites.

    Black women have been the primary beneficiaries of AA (relative to ability) it’d be nice if we could make black men assimilate, at least to the extent of not shooting people. Do you know how there are advocates for adding tiny amounts of lithium to tap water? Lithium level in water varies around the country. Places with lots of lithium in the water have lower suicide rates, so supplementing lithium for the whole population has positive effects for some people.

    My point? Better living through chemistry? It is a thing now! If we treat the black murder rate as a public health issue, as many progs and doctor-bureaucratic empire builders would like us to do, then, what is the effect of lithium on the black murder rate/shooting rate?

    Really, a huge chunk of white women are on antidepressants. The black crime problem is hard on the victims, but it’s also hard on the perpetrators, because they end up in prison, or have to always watch out for retaliation, get shot, and end up in a wheelchair… It might be in the interest of society and young black men to find a public health solution, whether lithium would help or it’d take some other drug, there must be a way that black men can be integrated into society. The pharmacopeia is huge, so there must be some old, off-patent drug that makes people less violent without turning them into zombies.

    The “warrior gene” is an allele of a gene that’s a small molecule receptor, right? I believe dopamine? There are a ton of drugs that affect dopamine. Maybe test some old ones on prisoners (with informed consent!) because prisons have lots of violent people, and they are well monitored, so decent data could actually be had.

    Replies: @anon

    Really, a huge chunk of white women are on antidepressants. The black crime problem is hard on the victims, but it’s also hard on the perpetrators… It might be in the interest of society and young black men to find a public health solution, whether lithium would help or it’d take some other drug, there must be a way that black men can be integrated into society.

    The main solution we are promoting is to have white women mate with black men. The offspring should tend to be a happy medium between the two groups.

  203. https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-10-11/nury-martinez-leak-reveals-crude-comments-about-jews-armenians
    https://archive.ph/ZhwLF


    [MORE]

  204. @Almost Missouri
    @Anonymous

    What portion of the 28% white Los Angeles are Jewish? What portion are Persian or Arab or ex-Soviet Men With Gold Chains, etc., as opposed to beleaguered "core White identity"?

    Replies: @Alden, @Twinkie

    ex-Soviet Men With Gold Chains

    Hey now, Armenians are real the Caucasians, you northern barbarian!

  205. @Corvinus
    @mc23

    “Lee Kuan Yew, the genius political leader of Singapore said “In multiracial societies, you don’t vote in accordance with your economic interests & social interests, you vote in accordance with race.“

    The late, great Madison Grant postulated the existence of three European races, which he defined as Nordic, Alpine, and Mediterranean, as well as their physical and mental characteristics. So, which are you?

    Replies: @Twinkie

    Lee Kuan Yew, the genius political leader of Singapore said “In multiracial societies, you don’t vote in accordance with your economic interests & social interests, you vote in accordance with race.“

    He said “race and religion,” not just race. But his critique was of multiracial democracies, not all multiracial societies. Indeed he was on record as stating that “Malays… Chinese… Indians… all have a place in Singapore” and that “No one has an advantage.” His aim was to build what he called a “multiracial meritocracy.”

    He also said once, “We can integrate all religions and races except Islam.”

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @Twinkie

    “He said “race and religion,” not just race.”

    That’s not the quote given by mc23. It only included “race”. Did he misquote it?

    Regardless, what do you think is more important, race or religion?

    “But his critique was of multiracial democracies, not all multiracial societies.”

    A critique of a multiracial society that is also a multiracial democracy. It goes hand in hand.

    “He also said once, “We can integrate all religions and races except Islam.”

    Which is an opinion.

    Anyways, the point I am making is that mc23 apparently agrees that you ought to vote in accordance with your race. So I’m asking him to choose which of the three according to Madison Grant that he belongs to.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  206. @Ron Unz
    @Anonymous


    All the damned racism in Los Angeles these days!

    As an Angeleno, it feels like I’m living in a Mexican Mississippi Burning!

    The racist city council members don’t want to do what’s right, because they think they’re ultimately above it, and I’m appalled at how few Angelenos are demonstrating, not to mention NO representation of Black Lives Matter, against these Mexican Bull Conner’s.
     
    I assume this comment is just satire, but the whole controversy really does seem like a tempest in a teapot. Yet it's gotten into the New York Times two days in a row! Meanwhile, nobody seems to really care that much about the serious risk of nuclear war with Russia:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g57ViSqmRFM

    Or the true origins of the Covid epidemic that killed over a million Americans:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=morj-3rdWwM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtfIIG8iYIk

    https://www.unz.com/runz/jeffrey-sachs-as-righteous-rogue-elephant/

    Replies: @Graveldips, @Corvinus, @Twinkie

    the serious risk of nuclear war with Russia

    Why would Russia need to resort to nuclear weapons when it is winning the war with such low casualties? 😉

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    @Twinkie


    Why would Russia need to resort to nuclear weapons when it is winning the war with such low casualties? 😉
     
    Not Russia, you silly patriotard, NATO:

    https://www.unz.com/kbarrett/beware-of-nuclear-false-flag-blaming-russia/

    You're so gullible I bet you actually believe that the Russians blew up their own pipelines...

    https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-of-pipelines-and-plagues/

    Weren't you an enthusiastic supporter of the Iraq War? Have you learned anything in twenty years?

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Twinkie

  207. @Twinkie
    @Ron Unz


    the serious risk of nuclear war with Russia
     
    Why would Russia need to resort to nuclear weapons when it is winning the war with such low casualties? ;)

    Replies: @Ron Unz

    Why would Russia need to resort to nuclear weapons when it is winning the war with such low casualties? 😉

    Not Russia, you silly patriotard, NATO:

    https://www.unz.com/kbarrett/beware-of-nuclear-false-flag-blaming-russia/

    You’re so gullible I bet you actually believe that the Russians blew up their own pipelines…

    https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-of-pipelines-and-plagues/

    Weren’t you an enthusiastic supporter of the Iraq War? Have you learned anything in twenty years?

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Ron Unz


    you silly patriotard
     
    This is just juvenile and beneath a man of your intellect, Mr. Unz… not to mention sadly petty. I was being jovial given our previous discussion about Russian casualties (hence the wink).

    Are you that sensitive about being wrong, even little bit? You are not God, you know. You can admit that perhaps your sense of Russian casualties was wrong. You’d have only risen in my estimation if you were intellectually honest and humble enough to make such an admission.

    Instead, you can’t even take such a gentle ribbing. I’m disappointed, Mr. Unz.

    Weren’t you an enthusiastic supporter of the Iraq War?
     
    Not enthusiastic, vengeful so. And, yes, I was wrong about the war. I guess that means I will be forever wrong about things and people such as yourself who opposed it are forever right about everything.

    And if you think that NATO is going to “false flag” use nukes and blame Russia (after Putin foolishly indicated its potential first use, which reeks of desperation), you really are a conspiracy nut.
    , @Twinkie
    @Ron Unz


    You’re so gullible I bet you actually believe that the Russians blew up their own pipelines…
     
    1. I don’t have nearly the reliable information to assess who blew up the pipelines.

    2. Gullible would be someone who gave credence to the Russian government public pronouncements of its casualty level.

    Replies: @Ron Unz

  208. @Almost Missouri
    @Alden

    Thank you.

    I wasn't trying to do an electoral calculation of Los Angeles, I was just trying get a rough ethnographic survey. (I have extended family there.)

    If someone says a town in North Dakota is 28% white, I know what that means well enough. But in Los Angeles, 28% white might be ... ?

    5% upper midwest-type whites, 5% okie-dixie-type whites, 5% urban catholic-type whites, 5% non-Euro whites, 5% Ashki-Jewish, 3% coastal WASP-type whites?

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

    But in Los Angeles, 28% white might be … ?

    After a bit of research, it looks like the answer is …

    18% Jewish

    10% everybody else.

  209. @Cool Daddy Jimbo
    @Bill Jones

    Who would have guessed that the nice lady who wrote the Harry Potter books would turn out to be one of the bravest people on planet Earth!

    Replies: @Bill Jones

    One of the things I hear about Rowling is that she has balls of steel and is not to be fucked with.

  210. @VivaLaMigra
    @Muggles


    These SA’s (to use initials) are no more indigenous to the Western Hemisphere than horses.

     

    Interesting that you mentioned the presence of equines [horses] in the Americas because there is now strong, if not overwhelming, evidence that horses crossed the land bridge into North America some time before the people you termed "SA's." However, rather than domesticate them, the newcomers hunted them to extinction. They did without the considerable advantages offered by that species until horses were reintroduced to the continents thousands of years later by the Europeans. Given how the tribes of the plains of North America mastered equestrian arts in relatively short order, using stolen and feral horses to breed their preferred war and hunting ponies, one can only imagine how they could have improved the breed given a millenia or two instead of a few centuries. Considering the magnitude of the potential gain to their culture and standard of living, I sure hope they enjoyed chowing down on Trigger, Mr. Ed, etc.

    Replies: @James Forrestal

    Interesting that you mentioned the presence of equines [horses] in the Americas because there is now strong, if not overwhelming, evidence that horses crossed the land bridge into North America some time before the people you termed “SA’s.”

    Horses evolved in the New World and crossed the land bridge in the other direction. The fossil record is very clear on this — it’s been known since the days of Marsh and Huxley in the 1800s.
    The “hunted to extinction” part is likely correct.

  211. @The Anti-Gnostic

    Ms. Martinez, who is Latina, compared the Black child of a white council member to a “changuito,” Spanish for little monkey. She also called Oaxacan immigrants living in Koreatown “short little dark people.”
     
    I'm starting to like our Castizo-Futurist American Empire! I wonder what her iSteve handle is.

    Replies: @Dream, @Jack P, @Dmon, @William Badwhite

    I’m starting to like our Castizo-Futurist American Empire! I wonder what her iSteve handle is.

    She should run for President! “F*&k him, he’s with the blacks” could be the new MAGA.

  212. @Ron Unz
    @Twinkie


    Why would Russia need to resort to nuclear weapons when it is winning the war with such low casualties? 😉
     
    Not Russia, you silly patriotard, NATO:

    https://www.unz.com/kbarrett/beware-of-nuclear-false-flag-blaming-russia/

    You're so gullible I bet you actually believe that the Russians blew up their own pipelines...

    https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-of-pipelines-and-plagues/

    Weren't you an enthusiastic supporter of the Iraq War? Have you learned anything in twenty years?

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Twinkie

    you silly patriotard

    This is just juvenile and beneath a man of your intellect, Mr. Unz… not to mention sadly petty. I was being jovial given our previous discussion about Russian casualties (hence the wink).

    Are you that sensitive about being wrong, even little bit? You are not God, you know. You can admit that perhaps your sense of Russian casualties was wrong. You’d have only risen in my estimation if you were intellectually honest and humble enough to make such an admission.

    Instead, you can’t even take such a gentle ribbing. I’m disappointed, Mr. Unz.

    Weren’t you an enthusiastic supporter of the Iraq War?

    Not enthusiastic, vengeful so. And, yes, I was wrong about the war. I guess that means I will be forever wrong about things and people such as yourself who opposed it are forever right about everything.

    And if you think that NATO is going to “false flag” use nukes and blame Russia (after Putin foolishly indicated its potential first use, which reeks of desperation), you really are a conspiracy nut.

  213. @Ron Unz
    @Twinkie


    Why would Russia need to resort to nuclear weapons when it is winning the war with such low casualties? 😉
     
    Not Russia, you silly patriotard, NATO:

    https://www.unz.com/kbarrett/beware-of-nuclear-false-flag-blaming-russia/

    You're so gullible I bet you actually believe that the Russians blew up their own pipelines...

    https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-of-pipelines-and-plagues/

    Weren't you an enthusiastic supporter of the Iraq War? Have you learned anything in twenty years?

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Twinkie

    You’re so gullible I bet you actually believe that the Russians blew up their own pipelines…

    1. I don’t have nearly the reliable information to assess who blew up the pipelines.

    2. Gullible would be someone who gave credence to the Russian government public pronouncements of its casualty level.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    @Twinkie


    1. I don’t have nearly the reliable information to assess who blew up the pipelines.
     
    Ha, ha, ha. Biden promised to eliminate the Russian pipelines. Victoria Nuland promised to eliminate the Russian pipelines. Radek Sikorski thanked America for destroying the Russian pipelines. So it's a huge, gigantic, enormous mystery who blew up the Russian pipelines!

    https://www.unz.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/pipeMoA-600x600.jpg

    2. Gullible would be someone who gave credence to the Russian government public pronouncements of its casualty level.
     
    Well, I just checked the Wikipedia page, and apparently the BBC has confirmed a little over 7,000 Russian military KIAs, which seems pretty consistent with the official Russian government reports:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#Total_casualties

    Meanwhile, the sort of propaganda-activists you believe have been reporting vastly greater Russian casualties for months.

    On the other side, Col. Douglas Macgregor thinks that the Ukrainians may already have lost as many as 100,000 men:

    https://youtu.be/EJcwnQfO6Y4

    Maybe that's why just a few days ago that Zelansky lunatic publicly called for a preemptive NATO attack on nuclear-armed Russia:

    https://twitter.com/partisangirl/status/1578166426459783169

    It's entirely obvious that you haven't learned a single thing about the world in the twenty years after the Iraq War.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Yevardian

  214. @AceDeuce
    @Corvinus

    RE: Herschel Walker. You're learning. Never trust a negro. Ever.

    Replies: @Corvinus

    Even Negroes who support Trump and oppose globohomo?

    • Replies: @AceDeuce
    @Corvinus


    Even Negroes who support Trump and oppose globohomo?
     
    Yes. It's not like there aren't thousands of White men who do the same two things--and, most importantly, aren't negroes.

    negroes only really "support" negroes--and feathering their own nests. Walker couldn't even spell "Russia".
  215. @Twinkie
    @Corvinus


    Lee Kuan Yew, the genius political leader of Singapore said “In multiracial societies, you don’t vote in accordance with your economic interests & social interests, you vote in accordance with race.“
     
    He said “race and religion,” not just race. But his critique was of multiracial democracies, not all multiracial societies. Indeed he was on record as stating that “Malays… Chinese… Indians… all have a place in Singapore” and that “No one has an advantage.” His aim was to build what he called a “multiracial meritocracy.”

    He also said once, “We can integrate all religions and races except Islam.”

    Replies: @Corvinus

    “He said “race and religion,” not just race.”

    That’s not the quote given by mc23. It only included “race”. Did he misquote it?

    Regardless, what do you think is more important, race or religion?

    “But his critique was of multiracial democracies, not all multiracial societies.”

    A critique of a multiracial society that is also a multiracial democracy. It goes hand in hand.

    “He also said once, “We can integrate all religions and races except Islam.”

    Which is an opinion.

    Anyways, the point I am making is that mc23 apparently agrees that you ought to vote in accordance with your race. So I’m asking him to choose which of the three according to Madison Grant that he belongs to.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Corvinus


    “He said “race and religion,” not just race.”

    That’s not the quote given by mc23. It only included “race”. Did he misquote it?
     
    Yes, he did.

    Regardless, what do you think is more important, race or religion?
     
    Important for what? In what context? Race is politically and socio-economically salient in the U.S., because, for much of its history, it was essentially a biracial society in which one race was subordinate to the other and now there is a gross overreaction to that past inequity that is subsuming everything.

    Other places in the world and contexts, religion is more salient. Certainly Lee Kuan Yew thought so about Southeast Asia.

    Replies: @Corvinus

  216. @Citizen of a Silly Country
    @Reg Cæsar

    My program is simple. Whites of whatever various flavors start to form their own communities that do their best to gain power in the overall society and eventually to be independent as possible.

    I don't give a damn about selling that to the majority of whites, much less non-whites. Goodwhites can go to hell. Civic nationalists can live in their fantasyland and feel oh-so-morally-superior as they fail.

    You still believe in the system and that it can be reformed. You want to save the USA. I don't.

    My program has worked throughout history. Colorblind civic nationalism has never succeeded.

    Replies: @Corvinus

    “Whites of whatever various flavors start to form their own communities that do their best to gain power in the overall society and eventually to be independent as possible.“

    Again, this is happening already! We continue to make our own decisions about race and culture. You just don’t personally agree with U.S.

  217. @Steve Sailer
    @AceDeuce

    The two fictionalized Oscar-winning movies that are partly based on the LAPD Rampart Scandal, "Training Day" and "Crash," are more honest.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    “Training Day” and “Crash,” are more honest.

    “Training Day” is not bad, but “Crash” is a joke with cardboard cutouts for characters and phony, contrived moralism masquerading as realism.

    “SouthLAnd” is the best law enforcement portrayal I have ever seen on TV or the silver screen.

  218. @Anonymous
    Surprisingly few blacks as well as a dinky mob in and outside the city council yesterday.

    I noticed a few of the offended Mexican Oompa Loompas from Korea Town were there also.

    The viewer can identify them easily, as they are all wee, roly-poly, and cute as a bug in a rug.

    https://youtu.be/tgHmLDyF4Ck

    Replies: @Ancient Briton

    This seems like an SNL sketch – when they were actually funny!

  219. @Corvinus
    @AceDeuce

    Even Negroes who support Trump and oppose globohomo?

    Replies: @AceDeuce

    Even Negroes who support Trump and oppose globohomo?

    Yes. It’s not like there aren’t thousands of White men who do the same two things–and, most importantly, aren’t negroes.

    negroes only really “support” negroes–and feathering their own nests. Walker couldn’t even spell “Russia”.

  220. Bonin doesn’t seem to be Jewish. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Bonin#Personal_life

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @For what it's worth

    From your link: "Bonin is Catholic, a member of St. Monica Catholic Church in Santa Monica."

    I wonder what St Monica, and even more so her son St Augustine, would have to say about that!

    The gay-friendly nominal-Catholic parish in Minneapolis is St Joan of Arc. She wanted John Hus burned at the stake!

  221. @Twinkie
    @Ron Unz


    You’re so gullible I bet you actually believe that the Russians blew up their own pipelines…
     
    1. I don’t have nearly the reliable information to assess who blew up the pipelines.

    2. Gullible would be someone who gave credence to the Russian government public pronouncements of its casualty level.

    Replies: @Ron Unz

    1. I don’t have nearly the reliable information to assess who blew up the pipelines.

    Ha, ha, ha. Biden promised to eliminate the Russian pipelines. Victoria Nuland promised to eliminate the Russian pipelines. Radek Sikorski thanked America for destroying the Russian pipelines. So it’s a huge, gigantic, enormous mystery who blew up the Russian pipelines!

    2. Gullible would be someone who gave credence to the Russian government public pronouncements of its casualty level.

    Well, I just checked the Wikipedia page, and apparently the BBC has confirmed a little over 7,000 Russian military KIAs, which seems pretty consistent with the official Russian government reports:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#Total_casualties

    Meanwhile, the sort of propaganda-activists you believe have been reporting vastly greater Russian casualties for months.

    On the other side, Col. Douglas Macgregor thinks that the Ukrainians may already have lost as many as 100,000 men:

    Maybe that’s why just a few days ago that Zelansky lunatic publicly called for a preemptive NATO attack on nuclear-armed Russia:

    It’s entirely obvious that you haven’t learned a single thing about the world in the twenty years after the Iraq War.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Ron Unz


    So it’s a huge, gigantic, enormous mystery who blew up the Russian pipelines!
     
    I tend not to believe what government officials of any nation say unless I have very good independent sources to verify their claims.

    Well, I just checked the Wikipedia page, and apparently the BBC has confirmed a little over 7,000 Russian military KIAs, which seems pretty consistent with the official Russian government reports:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#Total_casualties

     

    With all due respect, Mr. Unz, this is really quite sad. The link you provided for the BBC figure is based on this report from BBC News Russian & Mediazona: https://en.zona.media/article/2022/05/11/casualties_eng

    Mediazona, working with BBC News Russian service and a team of volunteers, continues to collect data about the casualties sustained by the Russian military in Ukraine. These numbers do not represent the actual death toll since we can only review publicly available reports — including social media posts by relatives, reports in local media, and statements of the local authorities. Also, the number of soldiers missing in action or captured is unknown.

    However, even this limited data can reveal what has been happening to the Russian army over the course of this invasion.

    The Ministry of Defence disclosed casualties only twice, on March 2 and March 25, and acknowledged 498 and 1,351 personnel killed, respectively.

    On September 21, following Putin’s announcement of the “partial mobilisation”, Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu reported that Russian army casualties stood at 5,937. This was an outright lie: our count, based on openly available information, lists more dead in the same time frame—and in fact the real figure is likely in the tens of thousands [boldfaces mine.]
     
    You really ought to read through what you cite instead of jumping on the first thing you think validates your increasingly out-of-touch-with-reality views.

    Meanwhile, the sort of propaganda-activists you believe have been reporting vastly greater Russian casualties for months.
     
    This is also dishonest. I don't believe casualty figures estimated by the Western governments, the Russian government, media, activists, what have you. You know exactly what I called my "crude methodology" to estimate Russian casualties - observed/photographed destroyed/damaged/captured Russian equipment multiplied by the same coefficient derived from American equipment and casualty figures from the Iraq War. It's by no means a highly reliable methodology, let alone perfect, but it sure is much more likely to be true than what the Russian government claims.

    You really are comically delusional if you think the Russian KIA is only 6,000 per the Russian government claims. Its government wouldn't be hurriedly mobilizing reservists and additional personnel of low readiness and training unless the Russian forces have suffered substantial casualties and are straining for additional manpower. Do you have any clue what happened in the last few weeks? Russians forces near the Kharkiv sector have collapsed and retreated in disarray. Even Anatoly Karlin implicitly acknowledges this, but here you are doubling down on your earlier, highly faulty "feelz."

    You really don't like to be wrong, do you?

    Replies: @Ron Unz

    , @Yevardian
    @Ron Unz

    I thought this particular meme-template illustrated the Nordstream situation best:

    https://twitter.com/powerfultakes/status/1577588602363576323/photo/1

  222. @Ron Unz
    @Twinkie


    1. I don’t have nearly the reliable information to assess who blew up the pipelines.
     
    Ha, ha, ha. Biden promised to eliminate the Russian pipelines. Victoria Nuland promised to eliminate the Russian pipelines. Radek Sikorski thanked America for destroying the Russian pipelines. So it's a huge, gigantic, enormous mystery who blew up the Russian pipelines!

    https://www.unz.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/pipeMoA-600x600.jpg

    2. Gullible would be someone who gave credence to the Russian government public pronouncements of its casualty level.
     
    Well, I just checked the Wikipedia page, and apparently the BBC has confirmed a little over 7,000 Russian military KIAs, which seems pretty consistent with the official Russian government reports:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#Total_casualties

    Meanwhile, the sort of propaganda-activists you believe have been reporting vastly greater Russian casualties for months.

    On the other side, Col. Douglas Macgregor thinks that the Ukrainians may already have lost as many as 100,000 men:

    https://youtu.be/EJcwnQfO6Y4

    Maybe that's why just a few days ago that Zelansky lunatic publicly called for a preemptive NATO attack on nuclear-armed Russia:

    https://twitter.com/partisangirl/status/1578166426459783169

    It's entirely obvious that you haven't learned a single thing about the world in the twenty years after the Iraq War.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Yevardian

    So it’s a huge, gigantic, enormous mystery who blew up the Russian pipelines!

    I tend not to believe what government officials of any nation say unless I have very good independent sources to verify their claims.

    Well, I just checked the Wikipedia page, and apparently the BBC has confirmed a little over 7,000 Russian military KIAs, which seems pretty consistent with the official Russian government reports:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#Total_casualties

    With all due respect, Mr. Unz, this is really quite sad. The link you provided for the BBC figure is based on this report from BBC News Russian & Mediazona: https://en.zona.media/article/2022/05/11/casualties_eng

    Mediazona, working with BBC News Russian service and a team of volunteers, continues to collect data about the casualties sustained by the Russian military in Ukraine. These numbers do not represent the actual death toll since we can only review publicly available reports — including social media posts by relatives, reports in local media, and statements of the local authorities. Also, the number of soldiers missing in action or captured is unknown.

    However, even this limited data can reveal what has been happening to the Russian army over the course of this invasion.

    The Ministry of Defence disclosed casualties only twice, on March 2 and March 25, and acknowledged 498 and 1,351 personnel killed, respectively.

    On September 21, following Putin’s announcement of the “partial mobilisation”, Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu reported that Russian army casualties stood at 5,937. This was an outright lie: our count, based on openly available information, lists more dead in the same time frame—and in fact the real figure is likely in the tens of thousands [boldfaces mine.]

    You really ought to read through what you cite instead of jumping on the first thing you think validates your increasingly out-of-touch-with-reality views.

    Meanwhile, the sort of propaganda-activists you believe have been reporting vastly greater Russian casualties for months.

    This is also dishonest. I don’t believe casualty figures estimated by the Western governments, the Russian government, media, activists, what have you. You know exactly what I called my “crude methodology” to estimate Russian casualties – observed/photographed destroyed/damaged/captured Russian equipment multiplied by the same coefficient derived from American equipment and casualty figures from the Iraq War. It’s by no means a highly reliable methodology, let alone perfect, but it sure is much more likely to be true than what the Russian government claims.

    You really are comically delusional if you think the Russian KIA is only 6,000 per the Russian government claims. Its government wouldn’t be hurriedly mobilizing reservists and additional personnel of low readiness and training unless the Russian forces have suffered substantial casualties and are straining for additional manpower. Do you have any clue what happened in the last few weeks? Russians forces near the Kharkiv sector have collapsed and retreated in disarray. Even Anatoly Karlin implicitly acknowledges this, but here you are doubling down on your earlier, highly faulty “feelz.”

    You really don’t like to be wrong, do you?

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    @Twinkie


    You really are comically delusional if you think the Russian KIA is only 6,000 per the Russian government claims.
     
    Actually, I think the official Russian KIA numbers to mid-September seem reasonably plausible, though obviously subject to "spin." For example, the figures probably exclude the rather substantial casualties of the Wagner mercenaries and the local Russian Donbas forces. The fact that the numbers roughly tie out with the BBC totals based upon social media reports of deaths certainly strengthens my confidence.

    Meanwhile, from what I remember, you were claiming that the Russians had already suffered almost that level of losses just a few weeks into the war, which seems utterly absurd to me, and your analysis was mostly based upon Ukrainian propaganda-Tweets aggregated by a Western-backed website. I absolutely acknowledge that the West totally dominates propaganda, but propaganda isn't reality.

    NATO has provided Ukraine with tens of billions of military hardware, massive support and intelligence assistance, "volunteer" contingents, and the Ukrainian military forces have always vastly outnumbered the Russian invasion force. That's the obvious reason the Russians have decided to call up some reserves.

    I claim absolutely no expertise in military matters, so I pay attention to those who do and seem credible, such as Col. Douglas Macgregor.

    Meanwhile, the fact that you absurdly refuse to admit the absolutely overwhelming likelihood that America or its proxies attacked the Nord Stream pipelines totally shreds your own credibility. Since you've revealed yourself to merely be a propaganda-activist, why should I or anyone else trust your opinion on any related matter?

    Replies: @Twinkie

  223. @Corvinus
    @Twinkie

    “He said “race and religion,” not just race.”

    That’s not the quote given by mc23. It only included “race”. Did he misquote it?

    Regardless, what do you think is more important, race or religion?

    “But his critique was of multiracial democracies, not all multiracial societies.”

    A critique of a multiracial society that is also a multiracial democracy. It goes hand in hand.

    “He also said once, “We can integrate all religions and races except Islam.”

    Which is an opinion.

    Anyways, the point I am making is that mc23 apparently agrees that you ought to vote in accordance with your race. So I’m asking him to choose which of the three according to Madison Grant that he belongs to.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    “He said “race and religion,” not just race.”

    That’s not the quote given by mc23. It only included “race”. Did he misquote it?

    Yes, he did.

    Regardless, what do you think is more important, race or religion?

    Important for what? In what context? Race is politically and socio-economically salient in the U.S., because, for much of its history, it was essentially a biracial society in which one race was subordinate to the other and now there is a gross overreaction to that past inequity that is subsuming everything.

    Other places in the world and contexts, religion is more salient. Certainly Lee Kuan Yew thought so about Southeast Asia.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @Twinkie

    “Important for what? In what context? Race is politically and socio-economically salient in the U.S., because, for much of its history, it was essentially a biracial society”

    Pick one—race or religion. Which one is more important overall?

    “in which one race was subordinate to the other and now there is a gross overreaction to that past inequity that is subsuming everything.”

    Indeed, the Alt Right is overreacting. If they had their way, you wouldn’t be here and you certainly wouldn’t have been able to marry outside of your race.

    Other places in the world and contexts, religion is more salient. Certainly Lee Kuan Yew thought so about Southeast Asia.

  224. @Ron Unz
    @Twinkie


    1. I don’t have nearly the reliable information to assess who blew up the pipelines.
     
    Ha, ha, ha. Biden promised to eliminate the Russian pipelines. Victoria Nuland promised to eliminate the Russian pipelines. Radek Sikorski thanked America for destroying the Russian pipelines. So it's a huge, gigantic, enormous mystery who blew up the Russian pipelines!

    https://www.unz.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/pipeMoA-600x600.jpg

    2. Gullible would be someone who gave credence to the Russian government public pronouncements of its casualty level.
     
    Well, I just checked the Wikipedia page, and apparently the BBC has confirmed a little over 7,000 Russian military KIAs, which seems pretty consistent with the official Russian government reports:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#Total_casualties

    Meanwhile, the sort of propaganda-activists you believe have been reporting vastly greater Russian casualties for months.

    On the other side, Col. Douglas Macgregor thinks that the Ukrainians may already have lost as many as 100,000 men:

    https://youtu.be/EJcwnQfO6Y4

    Maybe that's why just a few days ago that Zelansky lunatic publicly called for a preemptive NATO attack on nuclear-armed Russia:

    https://twitter.com/partisangirl/status/1578166426459783169

    It's entirely obvious that you haven't learned a single thing about the world in the twenty years after the Iraq War.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Yevardian

    I thought this particular meme-template illustrated the Nordstream situation best:

    https://twitter.com/powerfultakes/status/1577588602363576323/photo/1

  225. @Twinkie
    @Ron Unz


    So it’s a huge, gigantic, enormous mystery who blew up the Russian pipelines!
     
    I tend not to believe what government officials of any nation say unless I have very good independent sources to verify their claims.

    Well, I just checked the Wikipedia page, and apparently the BBC has confirmed a little over 7,000 Russian military KIAs, which seems pretty consistent with the official Russian government reports:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#Total_casualties

     

    With all due respect, Mr. Unz, this is really quite sad. The link you provided for the BBC figure is based on this report from BBC News Russian & Mediazona: https://en.zona.media/article/2022/05/11/casualties_eng

    Mediazona, working with BBC News Russian service and a team of volunteers, continues to collect data about the casualties sustained by the Russian military in Ukraine. These numbers do not represent the actual death toll since we can only review publicly available reports — including social media posts by relatives, reports in local media, and statements of the local authorities. Also, the number of soldiers missing in action or captured is unknown.

    However, even this limited data can reveal what has been happening to the Russian army over the course of this invasion.

    The Ministry of Defence disclosed casualties only twice, on March 2 and March 25, and acknowledged 498 and 1,351 personnel killed, respectively.

    On September 21, following Putin’s announcement of the “partial mobilisation”, Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu reported that Russian army casualties stood at 5,937. This was an outright lie: our count, based on openly available information, lists more dead in the same time frame—and in fact the real figure is likely in the tens of thousands [boldfaces mine.]
     
    You really ought to read through what you cite instead of jumping on the first thing you think validates your increasingly out-of-touch-with-reality views.

    Meanwhile, the sort of propaganda-activists you believe have been reporting vastly greater Russian casualties for months.
     
    This is also dishonest. I don't believe casualty figures estimated by the Western governments, the Russian government, media, activists, what have you. You know exactly what I called my "crude methodology" to estimate Russian casualties - observed/photographed destroyed/damaged/captured Russian equipment multiplied by the same coefficient derived from American equipment and casualty figures from the Iraq War. It's by no means a highly reliable methodology, let alone perfect, but it sure is much more likely to be true than what the Russian government claims.

    You really are comically delusional if you think the Russian KIA is only 6,000 per the Russian government claims. Its government wouldn't be hurriedly mobilizing reservists and additional personnel of low readiness and training unless the Russian forces have suffered substantial casualties and are straining for additional manpower. Do you have any clue what happened in the last few weeks? Russians forces near the Kharkiv sector have collapsed and retreated in disarray. Even Anatoly Karlin implicitly acknowledges this, but here you are doubling down on your earlier, highly faulty "feelz."

    You really don't like to be wrong, do you?

    Replies: @Ron Unz

    You really are comically delusional if you think the Russian KIA is only 6,000 per the Russian government claims.

    Actually, I think the official Russian KIA numbers to mid-September seem reasonably plausible, though obviously subject to “spin.” For example, the figures probably exclude the rather substantial casualties of the Wagner mercenaries and the local Russian Donbas forces. The fact that the numbers roughly tie out with the BBC totals based upon social media reports of deaths certainly strengthens my confidence.

    Meanwhile, from what I remember, you were claiming that the Russians had already suffered almost that level of losses just a few weeks into the war, which seems utterly absurd to me, and your analysis was mostly based upon Ukrainian propaganda-Tweets aggregated by a Western-backed website. I absolutely acknowledge that the West totally dominates propaganda, but propaganda isn’t reality.

    NATO has provided Ukraine with tens of billions of military hardware, massive support and intelligence assistance, “volunteer” contingents, and the Ukrainian military forces have always vastly outnumbered the Russian invasion force. That’s the obvious reason the Russians have decided to call up some reserves.

    I claim absolutely no expertise in military matters, so I pay attention to those who do and seem credible, such as Col. Douglas Macgregor.

    Meanwhile, the fact that you absurdly refuse to admit the absolutely overwhelming likelihood that America or its proxies attacked the Nord Stream pipelines totally shreds your own credibility. Since you’ve revealed yourself to merely be a propaganda-activist, why should I or anyone else trust your opinion on any related matter?

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Ron Unz


    I think the official Russian KIA numbers to mid-September seem reasonably plausible, though obviously subject to “spin.” [Boldface mine.]
     
    No kidding! You'd have to be totally stupid to think that the Russian government would report the true casualty level. Contrary to the Western media propaganda, Russia is not some Orwellian totalitarian state and is sensitive to the public opinion and pressure just like any other country (even authoritarian regimes are so), and has a powerful incentive to downplay its casualty level, just as the Ukrainian government has an incentive to exaggerate the Russian losses.

    For example, the figures probably exclude the rather substantial casualties of the Wagner mercenaries and the local Russian Donbas forces.
     
    It's not just the PMCs and Donbas forces. To the surprise and contrary expectations of almost all observers, including USG and the dissident opinion-givers on whom you rely so heavily, and, yes, me, the Ukrainian forces turned out to be quite courageous and skillful from the opening weeks of the war and managed to inflict significant losses on the Russian regular army mechanized forces. For example, elements of the elite Russian 1st Guards Tank Army suffered substantial casualties and losses on its failed attacks on Chernihiv and failed to capture Kharkiv (its commander being replaced for this failure allegedly). Then during the Ukrainian counterattack in the Kharkiv sector, it seems to have suffered badly and essentially disintegrated as a combat-effective force temporarily (no doubt it's being replenished at a furious clip).

    your analysis was mostly based upon Ukrainian propaganda-Tweets aggregated by a Western-backed website. I absolutely acknowledge that the West totally dominates propaganda, but propaganda isn’t reality.
     
    There is a saying in law enforcement. Material evidence is much more reliable than eye-witness accounts. My analysis has a crude and simple methodology, but it is based on material evidence, the veracity of which can be readily analyzed and debated. It's not based on wishful thinking or hostility to this government or that or personal feelings of this analyst or that.

    The fact of the matter is that, when there are losses in a mechanized war, there is evidence left behind - destroyed, damaged, or abandoned equipment, which can be counted.

    NATO has provided Ukraine with tens of billions of military hardware, massive support and intelligence assistance, “volunteer” contingents
     
    All that happened after the Ukrainians saved their own capital and showed that they weren't going to be blitzed and overtaken easily. Why do you think the USG (whose intelligence was correct in anticipating a Russian invasion while most observers dismissed the Russian pre-war military buildup as mere posturing) predicted the imminent fall of Kiev and all the Western embassies were evacuated (which have since returned once it was realized that Kiev was, after all, safe)?

    All the NATO support is allowing the Ukrainians to be able to launch successful counterattacks, but it is their own courage and skill that defended their capital and country in the first place.

    the Ukrainian military forces have always vastly outnumbered the Russian invasion force.
     
    First of all, that is a completely deceptive overstatement. Paper numbers mean very little in generating force in military conflicts. For example, the North Korean military is substantially larger than the South Korean military, but the former is highly unlikely to be able to beat the latter in a conventional war and would lose badly.

    The Russians committed their most high-readiness and -tempo operational units to the opening rounds of this conflict (in hopes of a quick victory, Crimea-style). Meanwhile the bulk of the Ukrainian military was poorly-armed and appeared to be of low readiness level. The material balance was (and even today is) heavily and clearly tilted in Russian favor.

    I have repeatedly reported - from video footages - my continual surprise that Russian mechanized units seemed to be very bad at basic combined-arms warfare (infantry-armor-artillery-air support working in tandem to overcome defenders and maintaining the momentum of attacks), exposing clear weaknesses in its leadership, training, cohesion, morale, tactical skills, and operational abilities. That's the real reason for the difficulties and reverses the Russian army is experiencing, not because the paper number for the personnel size of the pre-war Ukrainian military was bigger than the headcount of the Russian invasion force.

    I claim absolutely no expertise in military matters
     
    You are supposed to be a highly intelligent person with a supposedly genius-level IQ. Such a person should be able to update priors and adjust views based on changing circumstances and updated information, instead of obstinately doubling down and quadrupling down on the priors.

    Meanwhile, the fact that you absurdly refuse to admit the absolutely overwhelming likelihood that America or its proxies attacked the Nord Stream pipelines totally shreds your own credibility. [Boldface mine.]
     
    Ah, now you are changing your story. Here is a thing about proxies - you don't control everything your proxy forces do, as the Israelis once learned to their chagrin in Lebanon. Again, even Anatoly Karlin seems to believe the USG disavowal of the killing of Daria Dugina, an act attributed to Ukrainian intelligence operation.

    Unlike you, I don't jump to conclusions based on my "feelz." I am very cautious about making definitive statements, especially on something as weighty as war. "Cui bono" is a good question to ask, but it's not a proof, because there is an incredible amount of conflicting motives and murkiness in the chaos of war. As I wrote before, I don't have access to the specifics of the destruction of the pipelines (there is all kinds of propaganda and half-baked theories floating about and, of course, you can't trust the media), so I can't even make a crude assessment of how it was done and who did it.

    Since you’ve revealed yourself to merely be a propaganda-activist
     
    This is, frankly, pathetic. You know, I have had a very high and deep regard for your commitment to free speech, but, for reasons I cannot fathom, you have an unwise and unintelligent habit of getting personal and engaging in ad hominem when your argument turns out to have holes.

    For what and whom am I a "propaganda-activist"? If you examined my commenting history, it's pretty clear that I was generally, if mildly, sympathetic to Putin and his government prior to this war. I've written positively of the traditionalist regime (pro-Christianity, anti-LGBT, etc.) he seems to have created and the rise in the Russian standard of living he had overseen. I rated him as a better leader than those of the West. However, I also made it clear that I 1) don't have a dog in the fight between these two countries and that 2) I very mildly favor the Ukrainians in the war, solely because I do not like national borders being redrawn by force of arms (which leads to high instability). If you do a deep dive in my commenting history, I mention repeatedly that "the use of power begets power, but the use of force consumes it." And that's exactly what's happening to Putin.

    The fact that the numbers roughly tie out with the BBC totals based upon social media reports of deaths certainly strengthens my confidence.
     
    Seriously, read what you linked. BBC's methodology is Russian government public release of information + Russian media report + social media from kin of dead Russian military personnel. As such, it is the absolute bottom end of the Russian casualty level. You can't possibly believe - as a supposedly non-gullible person - this remotely captures all or most of the Russian casualty level... which is why the report you linked (via Wiki) makes clear that the real casualty level is likely several times higher "in the tens of thousands."

    All the available evidence - the materiel losses, the confirmed casualty counts of higher ranking Russian military officers (in a military that does not have a tradition of generals leading from the front) makes it highly likely that the true casualty level is, indeed, in the tens of thousands per the BBC report you cited, not the "confirmed" several thousand. (And it should go without saying that the Western/Ukrainian maximalist report of Russian casualties being 100,000 is unbelievable to say the least).

    Replies: @Ron Unz

  226. @Curle
    @animalogic

    “Such matters should be settled by a nonpolitical administrative body, based upon strict rules & demographic facts.”

    You’re joking, right? Courts, which are administrative bodies, can’t figure out how to create majority minority districts without creating bizarre gerrymandered districts. Someone has to choose the relevant demographic facts. Best solution I’ve heard of involves computer programs that are programmed for one task, creating a map of compact boundaries based solely on registered voters.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @animalogic

    Courts, which are administrative bodies, can’t figure out how to create majority minority districts…

    First rule of gerrymandering: concentrate as much of the opposition into as few districts as possible, leaving more– with necessarily thinner majorities– for you.

    “Majority-minority” is a feature, not a bug!

  227. @For what it's worth
    Bonin doesn't seem to be Jewish. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Bonin#Personal_life

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    From your link: “Bonin is Catholic, a member of St. Monica Catholic Church in Santa Monica.”

    I wonder what St Monica, and even more so her son St Augustine, would have to say about that!

    The gay-friendly nominal-Catholic parish in Minneapolis is St Joan of Arc. She wanted John Hus burned at the stake!

  228. @Ron Unz
    @Twinkie


    You really are comically delusional if you think the Russian KIA is only 6,000 per the Russian government claims.
     
    Actually, I think the official Russian KIA numbers to mid-September seem reasonably plausible, though obviously subject to "spin." For example, the figures probably exclude the rather substantial casualties of the Wagner mercenaries and the local Russian Donbas forces. The fact that the numbers roughly tie out with the BBC totals based upon social media reports of deaths certainly strengthens my confidence.

    Meanwhile, from what I remember, you were claiming that the Russians had already suffered almost that level of losses just a few weeks into the war, which seems utterly absurd to me, and your analysis was mostly based upon Ukrainian propaganda-Tweets aggregated by a Western-backed website. I absolutely acknowledge that the West totally dominates propaganda, but propaganda isn't reality.

    NATO has provided Ukraine with tens of billions of military hardware, massive support and intelligence assistance, "volunteer" contingents, and the Ukrainian military forces have always vastly outnumbered the Russian invasion force. That's the obvious reason the Russians have decided to call up some reserves.

    I claim absolutely no expertise in military matters, so I pay attention to those who do and seem credible, such as Col. Douglas Macgregor.

    Meanwhile, the fact that you absurdly refuse to admit the absolutely overwhelming likelihood that America or its proxies attacked the Nord Stream pipelines totally shreds your own credibility. Since you've revealed yourself to merely be a propaganda-activist, why should I or anyone else trust your opinion on any related matter?

    Replies: @Twinkie

    I think the official Russian KIA numbers to mid-September seem reasonably plausible, though obviously subject to “spin.” [Boldface mine.]

    No kidding! You’d have to be totally stupid to think that the Russian government would report the true casualty level. Contrary to the Western media propaganda, Russia is not some Orwellian totalitarian state and is sensitive to the public opinion and pressure just like any other country (even authoritarian regimes are so), and has a powerful incentive to downplay its casualty level, just as the Ukrainian government has an incentive to exaggerate the Russian losses.

    For example, the figures probably exclude the rather substantial casualties of the Wagner mercenaries and the local Russian Donbas forces.

    It’s not just the PMCs and Donbas forces. To the surprise and contrary expectations of almost all observers, including USG and the dissident opinion-givers on whom you rely so heavily, and, yes, me, the Ukrainian forces turned out to be quite courageous and skillful from the opening weeks of the war and managed to inflict significant losses on the Russian regular army mechanized forces. For example, elements of the elite Russian 1st Guards Tank Army suffered substantial casualties and losses on its failed attacks on Chernihiv and failed to capture Kharkiv (its commander being replaced for this failure allegedly). Then during the Ukrainian counterattack in the Kharkiv sector, it seems to have suffered badly and essentially disintegrated as a combat-effective force temporarily (no doubt it’s being replenished at a furious clip).

    your analysis was mostly based upon Ukrainian propaganda-Tweets aggregated by a Western-backed website. I absolutely acknowledge that the West totally dominates propaganda, but propaganda isn’t reality.

    There is a saying in law enforcement. Material evidence is much more reliable than eye-witness accounts. My analysis has a crude and simple methodology, but it is based on material evidence, the veracity of which can be readily analyzed and debated. It’s not based on wishful thinking or hostility to this government or that or personal feelings of this analyst or that.

    The fact of the matter is that, when there are losses in a mechanized war, there is evidence left behind – destroyed, damaged, or abandoned equipment, which can be counted.

    NATO has provided Ukraine with tens of billions of military hardware, massive support and intelligence assistance, “volunteer” contingents

    All that happened after the Ukrainians saved their own capital and showed that they weren’t going to be blitzed and overtaken easily. Why do you think the USG (whose intelligence was correct in anticipating a Russian invasion while most observers dismissed the Russian pre-war military buildup as mere posturing) predicted the imminent fall of Kiev and all the Western embassies were evacuated (which have since returned once it was realized that Kiev was, after all, safe)?

    All the NATO support is allowing the Ukrainians to be able to launch successful counterattacks, but it is their own courage and skill that defended their capital and country in the first place.

    the Ukrainian military forces have always vastly outnumbered the Russian invasion force.

    First of all, that is a completely deceptive overstatement. Paper numbers mean very little in generating force in military conflicts. For example, the North Korean military is substantially larger than the South Korean military, but the former is highly unlikely to be able to beat the latter in a conventional war and would lose badly.

    The Russians committed their most high-readiness and -tempo operational units to the opening rounds of this conflict (in hopes of a quick victory, Crimea-style). Meanwhile the bulk of the Ukrainian military was poorly-armed and appeared to be of low readiness level. The material balance was (and even today is) heavily and clearly tilted in Russian favor.

    I have repeatedly reported – from video footages – my continual surprise that Russian mechanized units seemed to be very bad at basic combined-arms warfare (infantry-armor-artillery-air support working in tandem to overcome defenders and maintaining the momentum of attacks), exposing clear weaknesses in its leadership, training, cohesion, morale, tactical skills, and operational abilities. That’s the real reason for the difficulties and reverses the Russian army is experiencing, not because the paper number for the personnel size of the pre-war Ukrainian military was bigger than the headcount of the Russian invasion force.

    I claim absolutely no expertise in military matters

    You are supposed to be a highly intelligent person with a supposedly genius-level IQ. Such a person should be able to update priors and adjust views based on changing circumstances and updated information, instead of obstinately doubling down and quadrupling down on the priors.

    Meanwhile, the fact that you absurdly refuse to admit the absolutely overwhelming likelihood that America or its proxies attacked the Nord Stream pipelines totally shreds your own credibility. [Boldface mine.]

    Ah, now you are changing your story. Here is a thing about proxies – you don’t control everything your proxy forces do, as the Israelis once learned to their chagrin in Lebanon. Again, even Anatoly Karlin seems to believe the USG disavowal of the killing of Daria Dugina, an act attributed to Ukrainian intelligence operation.

    Unlike you, I don’t jump to conclusions based on my “feelz.” I am very cautious about making definitive statements, especially on something as weighty as war. “Cui bono” is a good question to ask, but it’s not a proof, because there is an incredible amount of conflicting motives and murkiness in the chaos of war. As I wrote before, I don’t have access to the specifics of the destruction of the pipelines (there is all kinds of propaganda and half-baked theories floating about and, of course, you can’t trust the media), so I can’t even make a crude assessment of how it was done and who did it.

    Since you’ve revealed yourself to merely be a propaganda-activist

    This is, frankly, pathetic. You know, I have had a very high and deep regard for your commitment to free speech, but, for reasons I cannot fathom, you have an unwise and unintelligent habit of getting personal and engaging in ad hominem when your argument turns out to have holes.

    For what and whom am I a “propaganda-activist”? If you examined my commenting history, it’s pretty clear that I was generally, if mildly, sympathetic to Putin and his government prior to this war. I’ve written positively of the traditionalist regime (pro-Christianity, anti-LGBT, etc.) he seems to have created and the rise in the Russian standard of living he had overseen. I rated him as a better leader than those of the West. However, I also made it clear that I 1) don’t have a dog in the fight between these two countries and that 2) I very mildly favor the Ukrainians in the war, solely because I do not like national borders being redrawn by force of arms (which leads to high instability). If you do a deep dive in my commenting history, I mention repeatedly that “the use of power begets power, but the use of force consumes it.” And that’s exactly what’s happening to Putin.

    The fact that the numbers roughly tie out with the BBC totals based upon social media reports of deaths certainly strengthens my confidence.

    Seriously, read what you linked. BBC’s methodology is Russian government public release of information + Russian media report + social media from kin of dead Russian military personnel. As such, it is the absolute bottom end of the Russian casualty level. You can’t possibly believe – as a supposedly non-gullible person – this remotely captures all or most of the Russian casualty level… which is why the report you linked (via Wiki) makes clear that the real casualty level is likely several times higher “in the tens of thousands.”

    All the available evidence – the materiel losses, the confirmed casualty counts of higher ranking Russian military officers (in a military that does not have a tradition of generals leading from the front) makes it highly likely that the true casualty level is, indeed, in the tens of thousands per the BBC report you cited, not the “confirmed” several thousand. (And it should go without saying that the Western/Ukrainian maximalist report of Russian casualties being 100,000 is unbelievable to say the least).

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    @Twinkie

    Look, you have military expertise and I certainly don't. It also sounds like you've been following the details of the military campaign 20x more closely than I have.

    However, various other people like Macgregor also have very strong military expertise and I'm sure they've been closely following the military campaign as well.

    So my task is to weigh the relative credibility of the different contending analysts based upon those claims that I do consider myself competent in evaluating.

    The Ukrainian/Neocon side has massive superiority in media propaganda, and it's one of their most vital tools since they can use their alleged military successes to extract tens of billions of dollars from the US and our NATO allies, a nice slice of which I'm sure they siphon off into their personal bank accounts. Any good analyst needs to adjust information to take into account that extremely lopsided media/propaganda advantage.

    Producing fake Tweets of destroyed Russian military vehicles (perhaps using duplicate photos or Ukrainian vehicles) seems extraordinarily easy to me, and sending them to be "verified" and aggregated by a pro-West website could be done by a couple of interns. With billions of dollars of financial aid at stake, maybe the interns could even be paid a salary. When we were arguing about Russian losses back in March, it sounded like you'd never even considered such an obvious possibility: How could the Ukrainians actually lie?! This led me to question your judgment on this sorts of military intelligence analysis.

    Now take the much more crucial question of whether the Russians destroyed their own Nord Stream pipelines or whether America/NATO did, which I've discussed in my recent articles on the subject. There's absolutely no hard evidence, but I regard the likelihood of American responsibility as being completely overwhelming, and the same view is held by virtually every sensible person I know, although our dishonest MSM is almost 100% on the other side. The whole MSM story is just "a lie too far" even for normally gullible people. This is not a military matter but a simple geostrategic issue, and I have high confidence in my own judgment on the matter.

    And the notion that Polish (or Ukrainian) regimes whose entire survival is utterly dependent upon American support would take the gigantic strategic step of destroying the Russian pipelines so vital to Germany's economy without the full authorization and approval (and very likely assistance) of the topmost elements of the American government is utterly ludicrous. The attacks took place in an area of the Baltic very heavily monitored and patrolled by American and NATO warships.

    The fact that you refuse to acknowledge this obvious reality simply annihilates your credibility in my eyes. I just can't trust your judgment or your candor on any other issue connected with the Russia/Ukraine conflict.

    That the same group of Neocon propagandists (or their mentors) so completely tricked you twenty years ago about the Iraq War merely nails the issue shut in my own mind.

    So I go with Macgregor and the others in his camp.

    One of my areas of personal expertise is ethnic politics, which was the subject of this thread, and I probably shouldn't have diverted it into the Russia/Ukraine war, but it happened.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Twinkie

  229. the confirmed casualty counts of higher ranking Russian military officers (in a military that does not have a tradition of generals leading from the front)

    Unless they’re dying when their HQ is overrun, there’s more likely explanations that don’t include a lot of the men under their command also getting killed.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @That Would Be Telling


    Unless they’re dying when their HQ is overrun, there’s more likely explanations that don’t include a lot of the men under their command also getting killed.
     
    Of course. HQs being hit by precision arty strikes, for example.

    Either way, generals and colonels getting killed in relatively large numbers is a bad sign - it means the HQ is being interdicted and C4I is being dislocated and paralyzed. Usually that will contribute to higher casualties.

    And, again, this isn't a military force with a reputation for higher ranking officer leading from the front like WWII German army. The Russian military has always been very Befehlstaktik-oriented, to use a German term (roughly "command-push" as opposed to "recon-pull"/mission-orientation in English), so the loss of higher-level officers is particularly catastrophic.

    I've cautioned those commenters here engaging in Ukrainian triumphalism (I'm looking at you "Jack D") as the overall correlation of forces (a Soviet military phrase) still favors Russia, but it's pretty clear by now that the Russians have suffered disastrous losses and their offensive operational capacity has been significantly degraded. I suspect the whole point of mobilizing additional manpower (allegedly up to 300,000) is to stabilize and shore up the Russian defenses, so that they can concentrate the remaining high-tier/experienced manpower for a renewed offensive to wrest the initiative back and possibly deliver a knockout blow and/or force the Ukrainians to a truce, freezing the battle lines (and declare victory). Rather like the German Ludendorff Offensive/Kaiserschlacht in the last year of the Great War.

    Replies: @RadicalCenter

  230. @Twinkie
    @Ron Unz


    I think the official Russian KIA numbers to mid-September seem reasonably plausible, though obviously subject to “spin.” [Boldface mine.]
     
    No kidding! You'd have to be totally stupid to think that the Russian government would report the true casualty level. Contrary to the Western media propaganda, Russia is not some Orwellian totalitarian state and is sensitive to the public opinion and pressure just like any other country (even authoritarian regimes are so), and has a powerful incentive to downplay its casualty level, just as the Ukrainian government has an incentive to exaggerate the Russian losses.

    For example, the figures probably exclude the rather substantial casualties of the Wagner mercenaries and the local Russian Donbas forces.
     
    It's not just the PMCs and Donbas forces. To the surprise and contrary expectations of almost all observers, including USG and the dissident opinion-givers on whom you rely so heavily, and, yes, me, the Ukrainian forces turned out to be quite courageous and skillful from the opening weeks of the war and managed to inflict significant losses on the Russian regular army mechanized forces. For example, elements of the elite Russian 1st Guards Tank Army suffered substantial casualties and losses on its failed attacks on Chernihiv and failed to capture Kharkiv (its commander being replaced for this failure allegedly). Then during the Ukrainian counterattack in the Kharkiv sector, it seems to have suffered badly and essentially disintegrated as a combat-effective force temporarily (no doubt it's being replenished at a furious clip).

    your analysis was mostly based upon Ukrainian propaganda-Tweets aggregated by a Western-backed website. I absolutely acknowledge that the West totally dominates propaganda, but propaganda isn’t reality.
     
    There is a saying in law enforcement. Material evidence is much more reliable than eye-witness accounts. My analysis has a crude and simple methodology, but it is based on material evidence, the veracity of which can be readily analyzed and debated. It's not based on wishful thinking or hostility to this government or that or personal feelings of this analyst or that.

    The fact of the matter is that, when there are losses in a mechanized war, there is evidence left behind - destroyed, damaged, or abandoned equipment, which can be counted.

    NATO has provided Ukraine with tens of billions of military hardware, massive support and intelligence assistance, “volunteer” contingents
     
    All that happened after the Ukrainians saved their own capital and showed that they weren't going to be blitzed and overtaken easily. Why do you think the USG (whose intelligence was correct in anticipating a Russian invasion while most observers dismissed the Russian pre-war military buildup as mere posturing) predicted the imminent fall of Kiev and all the Western embassies were evacuated (which have since returned once it was realized that Kiev was, after all, safe)?

    All the NATO support is allowing the Ukrainians to be able to launch successful counterattacks, but it is their own courage and skill that defended their capital and country in the first place.

    the Ukrainian military forces have always vastly outnumbered the Russian invasion force.
     
    First of all, that is a completely deceptive overstatement. Paper numbers mean very little in generating force in military conflicts. For example, the North Korean military is substantially larger than the South Korean military, but the former is highly unlikely to be able to beat the latter in a conventional war and would lose badly.

    The Russians committed their most high-readiness and -tempo operational units to the opening rounds of this conflict (in hopes of a quick victory, Crimea-style). Meanwhile the bulk of the Ukrainian military was poorly-armed and appeared to be of low readiness level. The material balance was (and even today is) heavily and clearly tilted in Russian favor.

    I have repeatedly reported - from video footages - my continual surprise that Russian mechanized units seemed to be very bad at basic combined-arms warfare (infantry-armor-artillery-air support working in tandem to overcome defenders and maintaining the momentum of attacks), exposing clear weaknesses in its leadership, training, cohesion, morale, tactical skills, and operational abilities. That's the real reason for the difficulties and reverses the Russian army is experiencing, not because the paper number for the personnel size of the pre-war Ukrainian military was bigger than the headcount of the Russian invasion force.

    I claim absolutely no expertise in military matters
     
    You are supposed to be a highly intelligent person with a supposedly genius-level IQ. Such a person should be able to update priors and adjust views based on changing circumstances and updated information, instead of obstinately doubling down and quadrupling down on the priors.

    Meanwhile, the fact that you absurdly refuse to admit the absolutely overwhelming likelihood that America or its proxies attacked the Nord Stream pipelines totally shreds your own credibility. [Boldface mine.]
     
    Ah, now you are changing your story. Here is a thing about proxies - you don't control everything your proxy forces do, as the Israelis once learned to their chagrin in Lebanon. Again, even Anatoly Karlin seems to believe the USG disavowal of the killing of Daria Dugina, an act attributed to Ukrainian intelligence operation.

    Unlike you, I don't jump to conclusions based on my "feelz." I am very cautious about making definitive statements, especially on something as weighty as war. "Cui bono" is a good question to ask, but it's not a proof, because there is an incredible amount of conflicting motives and murkiness in the chaos of war. As I wrote before, I don't have access to the specifics of the destruction of the pipelines (there is all kinds of propaganda and half-baked theories floating about and, of course, you can't trust the media), so I can't even make a crude assessment of how it was done and who did it.

    Since you’ve revealed yourself to merely be a propaganda-activist
     
    This is, frankly, pathetic. You know, I have had a very high and deep regard for your commitment to free speech, but, for reasons I cannot fathom, you have an unwise and unintelligent habit of getting personal and engaging in ad hominem when your argument turns out to have holes.

    For what and whom am I a "propaganda-activist"? If you examined my commenting history, it's pretty clear that I was generally, if mildly, sympathetic to Putin and his government prior to this war. I've written positively of the traditionalist regime (pro-Christianity, anti-LGBT, etc.) he seems to have created and the rise in the Russian standard of living he had overseen. I rated him as a better leader than those of the West. However, I also made it clear that I 1) don't have a dog in the fight between these two countries and that 2) I very mildly favor the Ukrainians in the war, solely because I do not like national borders being redrawn by force of arms (which leads to high instability). If you do a deep dive in my commenting history, I mention repeatedly that "the use of power begets power, but the use of force consumes it." And that's exactly what's happening to Putin.

    The fact that the numbers roughly tie out with the BBC totals based upon social media reports of deaths certainly strengthens my confidence.
     
    Seriously, read what you linked. BBC's methodology is Russian government public release of information + Russian media report + social media from kin of dead Russian military personnel. As such, it is the absolute bottom end of the Russian casualty level. You can't possibly believe - as a supposedly non-gullible person - this remotely captures all or most of the Russian casualty level... which is why the report you linked (via Wiki) makes clear that the real casualty level is likely several times higher "in the tens of thousands."

    All the available evidence - the materiel losses, the confirmed casualty counts of higher ranking Russian military officers (in a military that does not have a tradition of generals leading from the front) makes it highly likely that the true casualty level is, indeed, in the tens of thousands per the BBC report you cited, not the "confirmed" several thousand. (And it should go without saying that the Western/Ukrainian maximalist report of Russian casualties being 100,000 is unbelievable to say the least).

    Replies: @Ron Unz

    Look, you have military expertise and I certainly don’t. It also sounds like you’ve been following the details of the military campaign 20x more closely than I have.

    However, various other people like Macgregor also have very strong military expertise and I’m sure they’ve been closely following the military campaign as well.

    So my task is to weigh the relative credibility of the different contending analysts based upon those claims that I do consider myself competent in evaluating.

    The Ukrainian/Neocon side has massive superiority in media propaganda, and it’s one of their most vital tools since they can use their alleged military successes to extract tens of billions of dollars from the US and our NATO allies, a nice slice of which I’m sure they siphon off into their personal bank accounts. Any good analyst needs to adjust information to take into account that extremely lopsided media/propaganda advantage.

    Producing fake Tweets of destroyed Russian military vehicles (perhaps using duplicate photos or Ukrainian vehicles) seems extraordinarily easy to me, and sending them to be “verified” and aggregated by a pro-West website could be done by a couple of interns. With billions of dollars of financial aid at stake, maybe the interns could even be paid a salary. When we were arguing about Russian losses back in March, it sounded like you’d never even considered such an obvious possibility: How could the Ukrainians actually lie?! This led me to question your judgment on this sorts of military intelligence analysis.

    Now take the much more crucial question of whether the Russians destroyed their own Nord Stream pipelines or whether America/NATO did, which I’ve discussed in my recent articles on the subject. There’s absolutely no hard evidence, but I regard the likelihood of American responsibility as being completely overwhelming, and the same view is held by virtually every sensible person I know, although our dishonest MSM is almost 100% on the other side. The whole MSM story is just “a lie too far” even for normally gullible people. This is not a military matter but a simple geostrategic issue, and I have high confidence in my own judgment on the matter.

    And the notion that Polish (or Ukrainian) regimes whose entire survival is utterly dependent upon American support would take the gigantic strategic step of destroying the Russian pipelines so vital to Germany’s economy without the full authorization and approval (and very likely assistance) of the topmost elements of the American government is utterly ludicrous. The attacks took place in an area of the Baltic very heavily monitored and patrolled by American and NATO warships.

    The fact that you refuse to acknowledge this obvious reality simply annihilates your credibility in my eyes. I just can’t trust your judgment or your candor on any other issue connected with the Russia/Ukraine conflict.

    That the same group of Neocon propagandists (or their mentors) so completely tricked you twenty years ago about the Iraq War merely nails the issue shut in my own mind.

    So I go with Macgregor and the others in his camp.

    One of my areas of personal expertise is ethnic politics, which was the subject of this thread, and I probably shouldn’t have diverted it into the Russia/Ukraine war, but it happened.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Ron Unz


    However, various other people like Macgregor
     
    What happened to Scott Ritter? You used to be high on him when he validated your "feelz," but not so much lately, eh?

    So my task is to weigh the relative credibility of the different contending analysts
     
    Worry less about "credibility," whatever that means, of personalities and worry more about correct counting of beans (or tanks). This is a particular trait of very Internet-oriented people, this fixation on personalities. Real life capabilities (and losses thereof) are what you want to try to assess if you care at all about real life and death in war.

    Just look at what happened on the ground since we last tangled about the Russian casualty levels - things have gone much worse for Russia. Does that seem to validate my estimate or yours prior to the Ukrainian counterattacks?


    Producing fake Tweets of destroyed Russian military vehicles (perhaps using duplicate photos or Ukrainian vehicles) seems extraordinarily easy to me, and sending them to be “verified” and aggregated by a pro-West website could be done by a couple of interns. With billions of dollars of financial aid at stake, maybe the interns could even be paid a salary. When we were arguing about Russian losses back in March, it sounded like you’d never even considered such an obvious possibility: How could the Ukrainians actually lie?! This led me to question your judgment on this sorts of military intelligence analysis.
     
    Do you actually know how intelligence communities and the defense departments of Western countries work? They are not all that "Internet"-oriented, even though they are extremely tech-orientated. Maskirovka has long been a Russian specialty, not a Western one (setting aside Israel). They are, in all likelihood, not producing 1,000+ fake photos to plant on some obscure website in the hope that an anonymous commenter on Unz.com is applying an Iraq War American loss multiple to arrive at a casualty estimate that is roughly mid-point between what the Ukrainians and the Russians claim. Moreover, if that were actually the case, it wouldn't take much for a Russian Internet partisan (pun not intended) to sample (say 10% of the photos) and verify based on unit locations, markings, etc.

    Now take the much more crucial question of whether the Russians destroyed their own Nord Stream pipelines or whether America/NATO did, which I’ve discussed in my recent articles on the subject. There’s absolutely no hard evidence [Boldface mine.]
     
    No, there isn't. At least not publicly. And that's my point. I don't have to have an opinion on everything that happens in the world, let alone express one publicly. Usually it's better to keep one's mouth shut when one lacks information and keep watching the world and see what happens. You seem to confuse this prudence with some sort of a personal attack on you, simply because I don't endorse whatever it is you write voluminously on this site.

    The attacks took place in an area of the Baltic very heavily monitored and patrolled by American and NATO warships.
     
    Okay. Tell me how the attack unfolded. How many men? What equipment? What kind of explosives? Give me some details of what you think happened.

    The Baltic is a pretty challenging environment for NATO: https://www.fpri.org/article/2020/07/maritime-security-issues-in-the-baltic-sea-region/


    In June, NATO conducted a scaled down version of its annual BALTOPS naval drills in the Baltic Sea. But with a heavy emphasis on land-based deterrence since re-independence, the Baltic states and NATO alike have been largely plagued by what experts refer to as “sea apathy” or “sea blindness.” This has led to gaps in capabilities, strategy, and procurements, as well as vulnerabilities related to critical infrastructure under sea and onshore.

    In the Baltic Sea Region, the maritime status quo favors Russia. Though its Baltic Fleet is not particularly impressive, Russia could use it to harass military and civilian activity at sea and take surprise offensive military action. In the case of the latter, there is very little that Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania could do to prevent Russia from projecting power into their port facilities, territorial waters, exclusive economic zones, or other littoral areas. Likewise, in the event of grey zone activities (i.e., hostile activities which generally fall below the threshold of war) and/or surprise offensive military action, there is very little that the Baltic states or NATO could do to stop Russia. Combine that with Russia’s anti-access/area denial (A2/AD) capabilities based in Kaliningrad and the logistical chokepoint of the Suwałki Gap, and the strategic calculus for NATO in the Baltic theater becomes extraordinarily difficult.

    The Baltic states face myriad hybrid and conventional threats from Russia in the maritime domain. NATO as a whole is unprepared for Russian aggression at sea. Given the economic and strategic importance of the Baltic Sea itself to the Baltic states and NATO, this situation must be remedied. By strategizing procurements, crisis response, and coastal defense, the long-standing condition of “sea blindness” can be reversed.
     

    For those who are really interested, read this pre-war report: https://icds.ee/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/ICDS_Report_To_the_Seas_Again_Lange_Combes_Jermalavicius_Lawrence_April_2019.pdf

    That the same group of Neocon propagandists (or their mentors) so completely tricked you twenty years ago about the Iraq War merely nails the issue shut in my own mind.
     
    They didn't trick me. I was emotional, because thousands died in my home city and the Pentagon burned. People I knew perished. The reactive rage blinded me and overcame my natural inclination against foreign interventions.

    I have no such emotions about this conflict, occurring far away from America.

    By the way, you've done this now multiple times, and, to be very frank, these interactions with you are lowering my estimation of your personal character, rather than increasing it. You appear to be quite petty and, like some jealous teenage girl who wants to smite a rival, seem to pounce (usually with ad hominem) when you sense some emotional vulnerability or painful history another has shared for the benefit of others. Apparently, my imagination that a man of your age, intelligence, and real-world accomplishments would be above that sort of a thing (something I expect from younger people living on the Internet) was quite misplaced.

    Replies: @Ron Unz

    , @Twinkie
    @Ron Unz


    One of my areas of personal expertise is ethnic politics
     
    Have you considered, perhaps, that you should stick to these "areas of personal expertise" in expounding forth your views?
  231. @That Would Be Telling

    the confirmed casualty counts of higher ranking Russian military officers (in a military that does not have a tradition of generals leading from the front)
     
    Unless they're dying when their HQ is overrun, there's more likely explanations that don't include a lot of the men under their command also getting killed.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    Unless they’re dying when their HQ is overrun, there’s more likely explanations that don’t include a lot of the men under their command also getting killed.

    Of course. HQs being hit by precision arty strikes, for example.

    Either way, generals and colonels getting killed in relatively large numbers is a bad sign – it means the HQ is being interdicted and C4I is being dislocated and paralyzed. Usually that will contribute to higher casualties.

    And, again, this isn’t a military force with a reputation for higher ranking officer leading from the front like WWII German army. The Russian military has always been very Befehlstaktik-oriented, to use a German term (roughly “command-push” as opposed to “recon-pull”/mission-orientation in English), so the loss of higher-level officers is particularly catastrophic.

    I’ve cautioned those commenters here engaging in Ukrainian triumphalism (I’m looking at you “Jack D”) as the overall correlation of forces (a Soviet military phrase) still favors Russia, but it’s pretty clear by now that the Russians have suffered disastrous losses and their offensive operational capacity has been significantly degraded. I suspect the whole point of mobilizing additional manpower (allegedly up to 300,000) is to stabilize and shore up the Russian defenses, so that they can concentrate the remaining high-tier/experienced manpower for a renewed offensive to wrest the initiative back and possibly deliver a knockout blow and/or force the Ukrainians to a truce, freezing the battle lines (and declare victory). Rather like the German Ludendorff Offensive/Kaiserschlacht in the last year of the Great War.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    @Twinkie

    Russia can end this by getting ruthless already and destroying every power plant, train station, and major bridge in the western 1/3 or so of “the ukraine.” Then hitting them again after the repairs and reconstruction get going.

    Russia can also level the government buildings throughout Kiev and make clear that they can do the same to the decisionmakers right in their offices and homes in Warsaw, Tallinn, and other tough guys sending weapons and gear to help kill Russians.

    Good luck to the Russians this time.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  232. @Ron Unz
    @Twinkie

    Look, you have military expertise and I certainly don't. It also sounds like you've been following the details of the military campaign 20x more closely than I have.

    However, various other people like Macgregor also have very strong military expertise and I'm sure they've been closely following the military campaign as well.

    So my task is to weigh the relative credibility of the different contending analysts based upon those claims that I do consider myself competent in evaluating.

    The Ukrainian/Neocon side has massive superiority in media propaganda, and it's one of their most vital tools since they can use their alleged military successes to extract tens of billions of dollars from the US and our NATO allies, a nice slice of which I'm sure they siphon off into their personal bank accounts. Any good analyst needs to adjust information to take into account that extremely lopsided media/propaganda advantage.

    Producing fake Tweets of destroyed Russian military vehicles (perhaps using duplicate photos or Ukrainian vehicles) seems extraordinarily easy to me, and sending them to be "verified" and aggregated by a pro-West website could be done by a couple of interns. With billions of dollars of financial aid at stake, maybe the interns could even be paid a salary. When we were arguing about Russian losses back in March, it sounded like you'd never even considered such an obvious possibility: How could the Ukrainians actually lie?! This led me to question your judgment on this sorts of military intelligence analysis.

    Now take the much more crucial question of whether the Russians destroyed their own Nord Stream pipelines or whether America/NATO did, which I've discussed in my recent articles on the subject. There's absolutely no hard evidence, but I regard the likelihood of American responsibility as being completely overwhelming, and the same view is held by virtually every sensible person I know, although our dishonest MSM is almost 100% on the other side. The whole MSM story is just "a lie too far" even for normally gullible people. This is not a military matter but a simple geostrategic issue, and I have high confidence in my own judgment on the matter.

    And the notion that Polish (or Ukrainian) regimes whose entire survival is utterly dependent upon American support would take the gigantic strategic step of destroying the Russian pipelines so vital to Germany's economy without the full authorization and approval (and very likely assistance) of the topmost elements of the American government is utterly ludicrous. The attacks took place in an area of the Baltic very heavily monitored and patrolled by American and NATO warships.

    The fact that you refuse to acknowledge this obvious reality simply annihilates your credibility in my eyes. I just can't trust your judgment or your candor on any other issue connected with the Russia/Ukraine conflict.

    That the same group of Neocon propagandists (or their mentors) so completely tricked you twenty years ago about the Iraq War merely nails the issue shut in my own mind.

    So I go with Macgregor and the others in his camp.

    One of my areas of personal expertise is ethnic politics, which was the subject of this thread, and I probably shouldn't have diverted it into the Russia/Ukraine war, but it happened.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Twinkie

    However, various other people like Macgregor

    What happened to Scott Ritter? You used to be high on him when he validated your “feelz,” but not so much lately, eh?

    So my task is to weigh the relative credibility of the different contending analysts

    Worry less about “credibility,” whatever that means, of personalities and worry more about correct counting of beans (or tanks). This is a particular trait of very Internet-oriented people, this fixation on personalities. Real life capabilities (and losses thereof) are what you want to try to assess if you care at all about real life and death in war.

    Just look at what happened on the ground since we last tangled about the Russian casualty levels – things have gone much worse for Russia. Does that seem to validate my estimate or yours prior to the Ukrainian counterattacks?

    Producing fake Tweets of destroyed Russian military vehicles (perhaps using duplicate photos or Ukrainian vehicles) seems extraordinarily easy to me, and sending them to be “verified” and aggregated by a pro-West website could be done by a couple of interns. With billions of dollars of financial aid at stake, maybe the interns could even be paid a salary. When we were arguing about Russian losses back in March, it sounded like you’d never even considered such an obvious possibility: How could the Ukrainians actually lie?! This led me to question your judgment on this sorts of military intelligence analysis.

    Do you actually know how intelligence communities and the defense departments of Western countries work? They are not all that “Internet”-oriented, even though they are extremely tech-orientated. Maskirovka has long been a Russian specialty, not a Western one (setting aside Israel). They are, in all likelihood, not producing 1,000+ fake photos to plant on some obscure website in the hope that an anonymous commenter on Unz.com is applying an Iraq War American loss multiple to arrive at a casualty estimate that is roughly mid-point between what the Ukrainians and the Russians claim. Moreover, if that were actually the case, it wouldn’t take much for a Russian Internet partisan (pun not intended) to sample (say 10% of the photos) and verify based on unit locations, markings, etc.

    Now take the much more crucial question of whether the Russians destroyed their own Nord Stream pipelines or whether America/NATO did, which I’ve discussed in my recent articles on the subject. There’s absolutely no hard evidence [Boldface mine.]

    No, there isn’t. At least not publicly. And that’s my point. I don’t have to have an opinion on everything that happens in the world, let alone express one publicly. Usually it’s better to keep one’s mouth shut when one lacks information and keep watching the world and see what happens. You seem to confuse this prudence with some sort of a personal attack on you, simply because I don’t endorse whatever it is you write voluminously on this site.

    The attacks took place in an area of the Baltic very heavily monitored and patrolled by American and NATO warships.

    Okay. Tell me how the attack unfolded. How many men? What equipment? What kind of explosives? Give me some details of what you think happened.

    The Baltic is a pretty challenging environment for NATO: https://www.fpri.org/article/2020/07/maritime-security-issues-in-the-baltic-sea-region/

    In June, NATO conducted a scaled down version of its annual BALTOPS naval drills in the Baltic Sea. But with a heavy emphasis on land-based deterrence since re-independence, the Baltic states and NATO alike have been largely plagued by what experts refer to as “sea apathy” or “sea blindness.” This has led to gaps in capabilities, strategy, and procurements, as well as vulnerabilities related to critical infrastructure under sea and onshore.

    In the Baltic Sea Region, the maritime status quo favors Russia. Though its Baltic Fleet is not particularly impressive, Russia could use it to harass military and civilian activity at sea and take surprise offensive military action. In the case of the latter, there is very little that Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania could do to prevent Russia from projecting power into their port facilities, territorial waters, exclusive economic zones, or other littoral areas. Likewise, in the event of grey zone activities (i.e., hostile activities which generally fall below the threshold of war) and/or surprise offensive military action, there is very little that the Baltic states or NATO could do to stop Russia. Combine that with Russia’s anti-access/area denial (A2/AD) capabilities based in Kaliningrad and the logistical chokepoint of the Suwałki Gap, and the strategic calculus for NATO in the Baltic theater becomes extraordinarily difficult.

    The Baltic states face myriad hybrid and conventional threats from Russia in the maritime domain. NATO as a whole is unprepared for Russian aggression at sea. Given the economic and strategic importance of the Baltic Sea itself to the Baltic states and NATO, this situation must be remedied. By strategizing procurements, crisis response, and coastal defense, the long-standing condition of “sea blindness” can be reversed.

    For those who are really interested, read this pre-war report: https://icds.ee/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/ICDS_Report_To_the_Seas_Again_Lange_Combes_Jermalavicius_Lawrence_April_2019.pdf

    That the same group of Neocon propagandists (or their mentors) so completely tricked you twenty years ago about the Iraq War merely nails the issue shut in my own mind.

    They didn’t trick me. I was emotional, because thousands died in my home city and the Pentagon burned. People I knew perished. The reactive rage blinded me and overcame my natural inclination against foreign interventions.

    I have no such emotions about this conflict, occurring far away from America.

    By the way, you’ve done this now multiple times, and, to be very frank, these interactions with you are lowering my estimation of your personal character, rather than increasing it. You appear to be quite petty and, like some jealous teenage girl who wants to smite a rival, seem to pounce (usually with ad hominem) when you sense some emotional vulnerability or painful history another has shared for the benefit of others. Apparently, my imagination that a man of your age, intelligence, and real-world accomplishments would be above that sort of a thing (something I expect from younger people living on the Internet) was quite misplaced.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    @Twinkie


    What happened to Scott Ritter? You used to be high on him when he validated your “feelz,” but not so much lately, eh?
     
    Sure, Scott Ritter also. But Macgregor is the one I happened to see discussing the issue most recently.

    Just look at what happened on the ground since we last tangled about the Russian casualty levels – things have gone much worse for Russia. Does that seem to validate my estimate or yours prior to the Ukrainian counterattacks?
     
    As far as I can tell, all the current casualty figures tend to correspond to the ones I'd vaguely assumed back in March.

    Do you actually know how intelligence communities and the defense departments of Western countries work? They are not all that “Internet”-oriented, even though they are extremely tech-orientated... They are, in all likelihood, not producing 1,000+ fake photos to plant on some obscure website in the hope that an anonymous commenter on Unz.com is applying an Iraq War American loss multiple to arrive at a casualty estimate
     
    There's an amusing clip of Zelensky producing his videos in front of a green-screen, which was then modified to show him visiting the battlefield to inspire his troops. Surely, faking a few Tweets of destroyed Russian vehicles would be trivial by comparison.

    Obviously, nobody cares about you or the other commenters on this website. But the data on that "obscure" Oryx website you rely upon is regularly cited by by leading analysts quoted in the NYT and the rest of the MSM. The resulting portrayal of the war has been worth tens of billions of dollars to the Ukrainians. People totally incompetent at propaganda wouldn't have been producing fake Tweets to maximize their advantage, and the Neocon mentors of the Ukrainians are AAA at that sort of propaganda-operation. If they can so easily trick someone intelligent like you with a military background, I'm sure their success rate is 99%.

    Okay. Tell me how the attack unfolded. How many men? What equipment? What kind of explosives? Give me some details of what you think happened.
     
    I'm not an underwater demolition expert so I don't know and I certainly don't care. Either the Russian pipelines blew themselves up, or the Russians did it in NATO-controlled waters, or America/NATO did it. With me, anyone who doesn't pick the third case has destroyed his own credibility. Obviously, it wasn't a trivial operation since the attackers got careless and accidentally hit one pipeline twice, so one of the four survived.

    Given your strong military history background, here's a sincere question for you. America/NATO is not currently at war with Russia and obviously not at war with Germany. As far as I can think, the destruction of the Nord Stream pipelines from Russia to Germany was probably the largest peacetime military attack on civilian infrastructure in the entire history of the world given the $20-30 billion spent constructing them, with the (far lesser) 9/11 attacks being the only remotely comparable example that comes to my mind. Is this correct, or can you think of a larger historical example that I'm missing?

    And isn't it a little "odd" that the attacks have gotten virtually no continuing coverage in the American MSM, despite the potentially catastrophic impact upon the European economy? There's been so little coverage that I'll bet 70% of Americans aren't even aware of the attack. I mean, if anyone actually believed there was the slightest chance the Russians were actually responsible, wouldn't it be a 24-7 wall-to-wall story on how Putin had tried to cripple Europe?

    Jeffrey Sachs mentioned he'd spoken with top MSM journalists and they all said that "everyone" knew America/NATO had done it, but no one was allowed to publicly say that.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Twinkie

  233. @Ron Unz
    @Twinkie

    Look, you have military expertise and I certainly don't. It also sounds like you've been following the details of the military campaign 20x more closely than I have.

    However, various other people like Macgregor also have very strong military expertise and I'm sure they've been closely following the military campaign as well.

    So my task is to weigh the relative credibility of the different contending analysts based upon those claims that I do consider myself competent in evaluating.

    The Ukrainian/Neocon side has massive superiority in media propaganda, and it's one of their most vital tools since they can use their alleged military successes to extract tens of billions of dollars from the US and our NATO allies, a nice slice of which I'm sure they siphon off into their personal bank accounts. Any good analyst needs to adjust information to take into account that extremely lopsided media/propaganda advantage.

    Producing fake Tweets of destroyed Russian military vehicles (perhaps using duplicate photos or Ukrainian vehicles) seems extraordinarily easy to me, and sending them to be "verified" and aggregated by a pro-West website could be done by a couple of interns. With billions of dollars of financial aid at stake, maybe the interns could even be paid a salary. When we were arguing about Russian losses back in March, it sounded like you'd never even considered such an obvious possibility: How could the Ukrainians actually lie?! This led me to question your judgment on this sorts of military intelligence analysis.

    Now take the much more crucial question of whether the Russians destroyed their own Nord Stream pipelines or whether America/NATO did, which I've discussed in my recent articles on the subject. There's absolutely no hard evidence, but I regard the likelihood of American responsibility as being completely overwhelming, and the same view is held by virtually every sensible person I know, although our dishonest MSM is almost 100% on the other side. The whole MSM story is just "a lie too far" even for normally gullible people. This is not a military matter but a simple geostrategic issue, and I have high confidence in my own judgment on the matter.

    And the notion that Polish (or Ukrainian) regimes whose entire survival is utterly dependent upon American support would take the gigantic strategic step of destroying the Russian pipelines so vital to Germany's economy without the full authorization and approval (and very likely assistance) of the topmost elements of the American government is utterly ludicrous. The attacks took place in an area of the Baltic very heavily monitored and patrolled by American and NATO warships.

    The fact that you refuse to acknowledge this obvious reality simply annihilates your credibility in my eyes. I just can't trust your judgment or your candor on any other issue connected with the Russia/Ukraine conflict.

    That the same group of Neocon propagandists (or their mentors) so completely tricked you twenty years ago about the Iraq War merely nails the issue shut in my own mind.

    So I go with Macgregor and the others in his camp.

    One of my areas of personal expertise is ethnic politics, which was the subject of this thread, and I probably shouldn't have diverted it into the Russia/Ukraine war, but it happened.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Twinkie

    One of my areas of personal expertise is ethnic politics

    Have you considered, perhaps, that you should stick to these “areas of personal expertise” in expounding forth your views?

  234. @Twinkie
    @Corvinus


    “He said “race and religion,” not just race.”

    That’s not the quote given by mc23. It only included “race”. Did he misquote it?
     
    Yes, he did.

    Regardless, what do you think is more important, race or religion?
     
    Important for what? In what context? Race is politically and socio-economically salient in the U.S., because, for much of its history, it was essentially a biracial society in which one race was subordinate to the other and now there is a gross overreaction to that past inequity that is subsuming everything.

    Other places in the world and contexts, religion is more salient. Certainly Lee Kuan Yew thought so about Southeast Asia.

    Replies: @Corvinus

    “Important for what? In what context? Race is politically and socio-economically salient in the U.S., because, for much of its history, it was essentially a biracial society”

    Pick one—race or religion. Which one is more important overall?

    “in which one race was subordinate to the other and now there is a gross overreaction to that past inequity that is subsuming everything.”

    Indeed, the Alt Right is overreacting. If they had their way, you wouldn’t be here and you certainly wouldn’t have been able to marry outside of your race.

    Other places in the world and contexts, religion is more salient. Certainly Lee Kuan Yew thought so about Southeast Asia.

  235. @Twinkie
    @Ron Unz


    However, various other people like Macgregor
     
    What happened to Scott Ritter? You used to be high on him when he validated your "feelz," but not so much lately, eh?

    So my task is to weigh the relative credibility of the different contending analysts
     
    Worry less about "credibility," whatever that means, of personalities and worry more about correct counting of beans (or tanks). This is a particular trait of very Internet-oriented people, this fixation on personalities. Real life capabilities (and losses thereof) are what you want to try to assess if you care at all about real life and death in war.

    Just look at what happened on the ground since we last tangled about the Russian casualty levels - things have gone much worse for Russia. Does that seem to validate my estimate or yours prior to the Ukrainian counterattacks?


    Producing fake Tweets of destroyed Russian military vehicles (perhaps using duplicate photos or Ukrainian vehicles) seems extraordinarily easy to me, and sending them to be “verified” and aggregated by a pro-West website could be done by a couple of interns. With billions of dollars of financial aid at stake, maybe the interns could even be paid a salary. When we were arguing about Russian losses back in March, it sounded like you’d never even considered such an obvious possibility: How could the Ukrainians actually lie?! This led me to question your judgment on this sorts of military intelligence analysis.
     
    Do you actually know how intelligence communities and the defense departments of Western countries work? They are not all that "Internet"-oriented, even though they are extremely tech-orientated. Maskirovka has long been a Russian specialty, not a Western one (setting aside Israel). They are, in all likelihood, not producing 1,000+ fake photos to plant on some obscure website in the hope that an anonymous commenter on Unz.com is applying an Iraq War American loss multiple to arrive at a casualty estimate that is roughly mid-point between what the Ukrainians and the Russians claim. Moreover, if that were actually the case, it wouldn't take much for a Russian Internet partisan (pun not intended) to sample (say 10% of the photos) and verify based on unit locations, markings, etc.

    Now take the much more crucial question of whether the Russians destroyed their own Nord Stream pipelines or whether America/NATO did, which I’ve discussed in my recent articles on the subject. There’s absolutely no hard evidence [Boldface mine.]
     
    No, there isn't. At least not publicly. And that's my point. I don't have to have an opinion on everything that happens in the world, let alone express one publicly. Usually it's better to keep one's mouth shut when one lacks information and keep watching the world and see what happens. You seem to confuse this prudence with some sort of a personal attack on you, simply because I don't endorse whatever it is you write voluminously on this site.

    The attacks took place in an area of the Baltic very heavily monitored and patrolled by American and NATO warships.
     
    Okay. Tell me how the attack unfolded. How many men? What equipment? What kind of explosives? Give me some details of what you think happened.

    The Baltic is a pretty challenging environment for NATO: https://www.fpri.org/article/2020/07/maritime-security-issues-in-the-baltic-sea-region/


    In June, NATO conducted a scaled down version of its annual BALTOPS naval drills in the Baltic Sea. But with a heavy emphasis on land-based deterrence since re-independence, the Baltic states and NATO alike have been largely plagued by what experts refer to as “sea apathy” or “sea blindness.” This has led to gaps in capabilities, strategy, and procurements, as well as vulnerabilities related to critical infrastructure under sea and onshore.

    In the Baltic Sea Region, the maritime status quo favors Russia. Though its Baltic Fleet is not particularly impressive, Russia could use it to harass military and civilian activity at sea and take surprise offensive military action. In the case of the latter, there is very little that Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania could do to prevent Russia from projecting power into their port facilities, territorial waters, exclusive economic zones, or other littoral areas. Likewise, in the event of grey zone activities (i.e., hostile activities which generally fall below the threshold of war) and/or surprise offensive military action, there is very little that the Baltic states or NATO could do to stop Russia. Combine that with Russia’s anti-access/area denial (A2/AD) capabilities based in Kaliningrad and the logistical chokepoint of the Suwałki Gap, and the strategic calculus for NATO in the Baltic theater becomes extraordinarily difficult.

    The Baltic states face myriad hybrid and conventional threats from Russia in the maritime domain. NATO as a whole is unprepared for Russian aggression at sea. Given the economic and strategic importance of the Baltic Sea itself to the Baltic states and NATO, this situation must be remedied. By strategizing procurements, crisis response, and coastal defense, the long-standing condition of “sea blindness” can be reversed.
     

    For those who are really interested, read this pre-war report: https://icds.ee/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/ICDS_Report_To_the_Seas_Again_Lange_Combes_Jermalavicius_Lawrence_April_2019.pdf

    That the same group of Neocon propagandists (or their mentors) so completely tricked you twenty years ago about the Iraq War merely nails the issue shut in my own mind.
     
    They didn't trick me. I was emotional, because thousands died in my home city and the Pentagon burned. People I knew perished. The reactive rage blinded me and overcame my natural inclination against foreign interventions.

    I have no such emotions about this conflict, occurring far away from America.

    By the way, you've done this now multiple times, and, to be very frank, these interactions with you are lowering my estimation of your personal character, rather than increasing it. You appear to be quite petty and, like some jealous teenage girl who wants to smite a rival, seem to pounce (usually with ad hominem) when you sense some emotional vulnerability or painful history another has shared for the benefit of others. Apparently, my imagination that a man of your age, intelligence, and real-world accomplishments would be above that sort of a thing (something I expect from younger people living on the Internet) was quite misplaced.

    Replies: @Ron Unz

    What happened to Scott Ritter? You used to be high on him when he validated your “feelz,” but not so much lately, eh?

    Sure, Scott Ritter also. But Macgregor is the one I happened to see discussing the issue most recently.

    Just look at what happened on the ground since we last tangled about the Russian casualty levels – things have gone much worse for Russia. Does that seem to validate my estimate or yours prior to the Ukrainian counterattacks?

    As far as I can tell, all the current casualty figures tend to correspond to the ones I’d vaguely assumed back in March.

    Do you actually know how intelligence communities and the defense departments of Western countries work? They are not all that “Internet”-oriented, even though they are extremely tech-orientated… They are, in all likelihood, not producing 1,000+ fake photos to plant on some obscure website in the hope that an anonymous commenter on Unz.com is applying an Iraq War American loss multiple to arrive at a casualty estimate

    There’s an amusing clip of Zelensky producing his videos in front of a green-screen, which was then modified to show him visiting the battlefield to inspire his troops. Surely, faking a few Tweets of destroyed Russian vehicles would be trivial by comparison.

    Obviously, nobody cares about you or the other commenters on this website. But the data on that “obscure” Oryx website you rely upon is regularly cited by by leading analysts quoted in the NYT and the rest of the MSM. The resulting portrayal of the war has been worth tens of billions of dollars to the Ukrainians. People totally incompetent at propaganda wouldn’t have been producing fake Tweets to maximize their advantage, and the Neocon mentors of the Ukrainians are AAA at that sort of propaganda-operation. If they can so easily trick someone intelligent like you with a military background, I’m sure their success rate is 99%.

    Okay. Tell me how the attack unfolded. How many men? What equipment? What kind of explosives? Give me some details of what you think happened.

    I’m not an underwater demolition expert so I don’t know and I certainly don’t care. Either the Russian pipelines blew themselves up, or the Russians did it in NATO-controlled waters, or America/NATO did it. With me, anyone who doesn’t pick the third case has destroyed his own credibility. Obviously, it wasn’t a trivial operation since the attackers got careless and accidentally hit one pipeline twice, so one of the four survived.

    Given your strong military history background, here’s a sincere question for you. America/NATO is not currently at war with Russia and obviously not at war with Germany. As far as I can think, the destruction of the Nord Stream pipelines from Russia to Germany was probably the largest peacetime military attack on civilian infrastructure in the entire history of the world given the $20-30 billion spent constructing them, with the (far lesser) 9/11 attacks being the only remotely comparable example that comes to my mind. Is this correct, or can you think of a larger historical example that I’m missing?

    And isn’t it a little “odd” that the attacks have gotten virtually no continuing coverage in the American MSM, despite the potentially catastrophic impact upon the European economy? There’s been so little coverage that I’ll bet 70% of Americans aren’t even aware of the attack. I mean, if anyone actually believed there was the slightest chance the Russians were actually responsible, wouldn’t it be a 24-7 wall-to-wall story on how Putin had tried to cripple Europe?

    Jeffrey Sachs mentioned he’d spoken with top MSM journalists and they all said that “everyone” knew America/NATO had done it, but no one was allowed to publicly say that.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Ron Unz


    Sure, Scott Ritter also.
     
    He's changed his tune a bit since you last touted him.

    a few Tweets
     
    1000+ is not "a few." Also, the markings and the surroundings would have to correspond to the unit locations, the equipment must be the right type for that said location, the damages have to appear right (esp. in context of the countermeasures deployed by the Ukrainian side in that particular location), etc. There is a myriad of details that have to be correct for all 1,000+ photographs. A quick sampling of 10% of them could be examined by the Russians or by their Internet supporters and disproven. This is precisely why I like basing my estimate on this kind of evidence - it's falsifiable... unlike "feelz" or personal "motives."

    the data on that “obscure” Oryx website you rely upon is regularly cited by by leading analysts quoted in the NYT and the rest of the MSM.
     
    Yes, because it is the only one supplying actual material evidence of outcome of battles. Still, I don't see anyone else using that and the American multiple from the Iraq war to estimate casualty levels in public, do you?

    I’m not an underwater demolition expert so I don’t know and I certainly don’t care.
     
    You should if you are going to opine with such a sense of certainty. If you are serious about a topic, you have to be able to reconstruct the details or at lease propose a plausible set of them.

    America/NATO is not currently at war with Russia
     
    Sure it is. It just happens to be a proxy war.

    And isn’t it a little “odd” that the attacks have gotten virtually no continuing coverage in the American MSM, despite the potentially catastrophic impact upon the European economy?
     
    https://duckduckgo.com/?q=nord+stream+pipeline&iar=news&ia=news

    Jeffrey Sachs mentioned he’d spoken with top MSM journalists and they all said that “everyone” knew America/NATO had done it, but no one was allowed to publicly say that.
     
    Allowed by whom?
    , @Twinkie
    @Ron Unz


    Either the Russian pipelines blew themselves up, or the Russians did it in NATO-controlled waters, or America/NATO did it.
     
    Another possibility is that a third party did it. There are those that benefit from 1) a prolonged conflict between the West and Russia and 2) increased availability of Russian energy supplies in non-Western markets. I’m not saying this is likely, but merely a possibility you left out.

    Replies: @Ron Unz

  236. @Twinkie
    @That Would Be Telling


    Unless they’re dying when their HQ is overrun, there’s more likely explanations that don’t include a lot of the men under their command also getting killed.
     
    Of course. HQs being hit by precision arty strikes, for example.

    Either way, generals and colonels getting killed in relatively large numbers is a bad sign - it means the HQ is being interdicted and C4I is being dislocated and paralyzed. Usually that will contribute to higher casualties.

    And, again, this isn't a military force with a reputation for higher ranking officer leading from the front like WWII German army. The Russian military has always been very Befehlstaktik-oriented, to use a German term (roughly "command-push" as opposed to "recon-pull"/mission-orientation in English), so the loss of higher-level officers is particularly catastrophic.

    I've cautioned those commenters here engaging in Ukrainian triumphalism (I'm looking at you "Jack D") as the overall correlation of forces (a Soviet military phrase) still favors Russia, but it's pretty clear by now that the Russians have suffered disastrous losses and their offensive operational capacity has been significantly degraded. I suspect the whole point of mobilizing additional manpower (allegedly up to 300,000) is to stabilize and shore up the Russian defenses, so that they can concentrate the remaining high-tier/experienced manpower for a renewed offensive to wrest the initiative back and possibly deliver a knockout blow and/or force the Ukrainians to a truce, freezing the battle lines (and declare victory). Rather like the German Ludendorff Offensive/Kaiserschlacht in the last year of the Great War.

    Replies: @RadicalCenter

    Russia can end this by getting ruthless already and destroying every power plant, train station, and major bridge in the western 1/3 or so of “the ukraine.” Then hitting them again after the repairs and reconstruction get going.

    Russia can also level the government buildings throughout Kiev and make clear that they can do the same to the decisionmakers right in their offices and homes in Warsaw, Tallinn, and other tough guys sending weapons and gear to help kill Russians.

    Good luck to the Russians this time.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @RadicalCenter


    Russia can end this by getting ruthless already and destroying every power plant, train station, and major bridge in the western 1/3 or so of “the ukraine.” Then hitting them again after the repairs and reconstruction get going.
     
    With what weapon systems? Are you assuming that Russia has an inexhaustible supply of precision-guided munitions/cruise missiles?

    Putin seems to have indicated that there won't be further large-scale barrages of Kalibrs/Iskanders on Ukraine. Most analysts think that the stock for the last barrage took a while to build up, but I don't have any idea on what their inventory was prior to the war and what their production and deployment (replenishment) rates are.
  237. @RadicalCenter
    @Twinkie

    Russia can end this by getting ruthless already and destroying every power plant, train station, and major bridge in the western 1/3 or so of “the ukraine.” Then hitting them again after the repairs and reconstruction get going.

    Russia can also level the government buildings throughout Kiev and make clear that they can do the same to the decisionmakers right in their offices and homes in Warsaw, Tallinn, and other tough guys sending weapons and gear to help kill Russians.

    Good luck to the Russians this time.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    Russia can end this by getting ruthless already and destroying every power plant, train station, and major bridge in the western 1/3 or so of “the ukraine.” Then hitting them again after the repairs and reconstruction get going.

    With what weapon systems? Are you assuming that Russia has an inexhaustible supply of precision-guided munitions/cruise missiles?

    Putin seems to have indicated that there won’t be further large-scale barrages of Kalibrs/Iskanders on Ukraine. Most analysts think that the stock for the last barrage took a while to build up, but I don’t have any idea on what their inventory was prior to the war and what their production and deployment (replenishment) rates are.

  238. @Ron Unz
    @Twinkie


    What happened to Scott Ritter? You used to be high on him when he validated your “feelz,” but not so much lately, eh?
     
    Sure, Scott Ritter also. But Macgregor is the one I happened to see discussing the issue most recently.

    Just look at what happened on the ground since we last tangled about the Russian casualty levels – things have gone much worse for Russia. Does that seem to validate my estimate or yours prior to the Ukrainian counterattacks?
     
    As far as I can tell, all the current casualty figures tend to correspond to the ones I'd vaguely assumed back in March.

    Do you actually know how intelligence communities and the defense departments of Western countries work? They are not all that “Internet”-oriented, even though they are extremely tech-orientated... They are, in all likelihood, not producing 1,000+ fake photos to plant on some obscure website in the hope that an anonymous commenter on Unz.com is applying an Iraq War American loss multiple to arrive at a casualty estimate
     
    There's an amusing clip of Zelensky producing his videos in front of a green-screen, which was then modified to show him visiting the battlefield to inspire his troops. Surely, faking a few Tweets of destroyed Russian vehicles would be trivial by comparison.

    Obviously, nobody cares about you or the other commenters on this website. But the data on that "obscure" Oryx website you rely upon is regularly cited by by leading analysts quoted in the NYT and the rest of the MSM. The resulting portrayal of the war has been worth tens of billions of dollars to the Ukrainians. People totally incompetent at propaganda wouldn't have been producing fake Tweets to maximize their advantage, and the Neocon mentors of the Ukrainians are AAA at that sort of propaganda-operation. If they can so easily trick someone intelligent like you with a military background, I'm sure their success rate is 99%.

    Okay. Tell me how the attack unfolded. How many men? What equipment? What kind of explosives? Give me some details of what you think happened.
     
    I'm not an underwater demolition expert so I don't know and I certainly don't care. Either the Russian pipelines blew themselves up, or the Russians did it in NATO-controlled waters, or America/NATO did it. With me, anyone who doesn't pick the third case has destroyed his own credibility. Obviously, it wasn't a trivial operation since the attackers got careless and accidentally hit one pipeline twice, so one of the four survived.

    Given your strong military history background, here's a sincere question for you. America/NATO is not currently at war with Russia and obviously not at war with Germany. As far as I can think, the destruction of the Nord Stream pipelines from Russia to Germany was probably the largest peacetime military attack on civilian infrastructure in the entire history of the world given the $20-30 billion spent constructing them, with the (far lesser) 9/11 attacks being the only remotely comparable example that comes to my mind. Is this correct, or can you think of a larger historical example that I'm missing?

    And isn't it a little "odd" that the attacks have gotten virtually no continuing coverage in the American MSM, despite the potentially catastrophic impact upon the European economy? There's been so little coverage that I'll bet 70% of Americans aren't even aware of the attack. I mean, if anyone actually believed there was the slightest chance the Russians were actually responsible, wouldn't it be a 24-7 wall-to-wall story on how Putin had tried to cripple Europe?

    Jeffrey Sachs mentioned he'd spoken with top MSM journalists and they all said that "everyone" knew America/NATO had done it, but no one was allowed to publicly say that.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Twinkie

    Sure, Scott Ritter also.

    He’s changed his tune a bit since you last touted him.

    a few Tweets

    1000+ is not “a few.” Also, the markings and the surroundings would have to correspond to the unit locations, the equipment must be the right type for that said location, the damages have to appear right (esp. in context of the countermeasures deployed by the Ukrainian side in that particular location), etc. There is a myriad of details that have to be correct for all 1,000+ photographs. A quick sampling of 10% of them could be examined by the Russians or by their Internet supporters and disproven. This is precisely why I like basing my estimate on this kind of evidence – it’s falsifiable… unlike “feelz” or personal “motives.”

    the data on that “obscure” Oryx website you rely upon is regularly cited by by leading analysts quoted in the NYT and the rest of the MSM.

    Yes, because it is the only one supplying actual material evidence of outcome of battles. Still, I don’t see anyone else using that and the American multiple from the Iraq war to estimate casualty levels in public, do you?

    I’m not an underwater demolition expert so I don’t know and I certainly don’t care.

    You should if you are going to opine with such a sense of certainty. If you are serious about a topic, you have to be able to reconstruct the details or at lease propose a plausible set of them.

    America/NATO is not currently at war with Russia

    Sure it is. It just happens to be a proxy war.

    And isn’t it a little “odd” that the attacks have gotten virtually no continuing coverage in the American MSM, despite the potentially catastrophic impact upon the European economy?

    https://duckduckgo.com/?q=nord+stream+pipeline&iar=news&ia=news

    Jeffrey Sachs mentioned he’d spoken with top MSM journalists and they all said that “everyone” knew America/NATO had done it, but no one was allowed to publicly say that.

    Allowed by whom?

  239. @Ron Unz
    @Twinkie


    What happened to Scott Ritter? You used to be high on him when he validated your “feelz,” but not so much lately, eh?
     
    Sure, Scott Ritter also. But Macgregor is the one I happened to see discussing the issue most recently.

    Just look at what happened on the ground since we last tangled about the Russian casualty levels – things have gone much worse for Russia. Does that seem to validate my estimate or yours prior to the Ukrainian counterattacks?
     
    As far as I can tell, all the current casualty figures tend to correspond to the ones I'd vaguely assumed back in March.

    Do you actually know how intelligence communities and the defense departments of Western countries work? They are not all that “Internet”-oriented, even though they are extremely tech-orientated... They are, in all likelihood, not producing 1,000+ fake photos to plant on some obscure website in the hope that an anonymous commenter on Unz.com is applying an Iraq War American loss multiple to arrive at a casualty estimate
     
    There's an amusing clip of Zelensky producing his videos in front of a green-screen, which was then modified to show him visiting the battlefield to inspire his troops. Surely, faking a few Tweets of destroyed Russian vehicles would be trivial by comparison.

    Obviously, nobody cares about you or the other commenters on this website. But the data on that "obscure" Oryx website you rely upon is regularly cited by by leading analysts quoted in the NYT and the rest of the MSM. The resulting portrayal of the war has been worth tens of billions of dollars to the Ukrainians. People totally incompetent at propaganda wouldn't have been producing fake Tweets to maximize their advantage, and the Neocon mentors of the Ukrainians are AAA at that sort of propaganda-operation. If they can so easily trick someone intelligent like you with a military background, I'm sure their success rate is 99%.

    Okay. Tell me how the attack unfolded. How many men? What equipment? What kind of explosives? Give me some details of what you think happened.
     
    I'm not an underwater demolition expert so I don't know and I certainly don't care. Either the Russian pipelines blew themselves up, or the Russians did it in NATO-controlled waters, or America/NATO did it. With me, anyone who doesn't pick the third case has destroyed his own credibility. Obviously, it wasn't a trivial operation since the attackers got careless and accidentally hit one pipeline twice, so one of the four survived.

    Given your strong military history background, here's a sincere question for you. America/NATO is not currently at war with Russia and obviously not at war with Germany. As far as I can think, the destruction of the Nord Stream pipelines from Russia to Germany was probably the largest peacetime military attack on civilian infrastructure in the entire history of the world given the $20-30 billion spent constructing them, with the (far lesser) 9/11 attacks being the only remotely comparable example that comes to my mind. Is this correct, or can you think of a larger historical example that I'm missing?

    And isn't it a little "odd" that the attacks have gotten virtually no continuing coverage in the American MSM, despite the potentially catastrophic impact upon the European economy? There's been so little coverage that I'll bet 70% of Americans aren't even aware of the attack. I mean, if anyone actually believed there was the slightest chance the Russians were actually responsible, wouldn't it be a 24-7 wall-to-wall story on how Putin had tried to cripple Europe?

    Jeffrey Sachs mentioned he'd spoken with top MSM journalists and they all said that "everyone" knew America/NATO had done it, but no one was allowed to publicly say that.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Twinkie

    Either the Russian pipelines blew themselves up, or the Russians did it in NATO-controlled waters, or America/NATO did it.

    Another possibility is that a third party did it. There are those that benefit from 1) a prolonged conflict between the West and Russia and 2) increased availability of Russian energy supplies in non-Western markets. I’m not saying this is likely, but merely a possibility you left out.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    @Twinkie


    Another possibility is that a third party did it. There are those that benefit from 1) a prolonged conflict between the West and Russia and 2) increased availability of Russian energy supplies in non-Western markets. I’m not saying this is likely, but merely a possibility you left out.
     
    Yep, I'm sure the vile ChiComs sent one of their submarines around the world to blow up the Russian pipelines in the NATO-controlled portion of the Baltic. Lucky for them that Biden and other top American officials had previously promised to do exactly that, thereby diverting suspicion in a different direction. Everyone knows that the ChiComs own Biden, so they probably ordered him to make those statements. Then a day or two later, Blinken said how beneficial the inexplicable destruction of the Russian pipelines would be for America's strategic position, so the ChiComs probably own him as well.

    You're just digging yourself into an immensely deep hole. I can't understand why an intelligent person would want to present himself as an archetypal IQ 95 "Patriotard" but so be it.

    Replies: @JohnnyWalker123, @Twinkie

  240. @Steve Sailer
    @fredyetagain aka superhonky

    I remember listening to Art Laboe play doo-wop for Chicanos dedicating 1950s songs to their girlfriend while driving back from climbing Mt. Whitney in 1977. It was the only station we could pick up. I'm glad I had a chance to be exposed to this interesting phenomenon.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @MEH 0910

    Gustavo Arellano:
    https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-10-12/art-laboe-influence-segregation
    https://archive.ph/g3ewg


    [MORE]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_Laboe

    https://www.unz.com/author/gustavo-arellano/

  241. @Twinkie
    @Ron Unz


    Either the Russian pipelines blew themselves up, or the Russians did it in NATO-controlled waters, or America/NATO did it.
     
    Another possibility is that a third party did it. There are those that benefit from 1) a prolonged conflict between the West and Russia and 2) increased availability of Russian energy supplies in non-Western markets. I’m not saying this is likely, but merely a possibility you left out.

    Replies: @Ron Unz

    Another possibility is that a third party did it. There are those that benefit from 1) a prolonged conflict between the West and Russia and 2) increased availability of Russian energy supplies in non-Western markets. I’m not saying this is likely, but merely a possibility you left out.

    Yep, I’m sure the vile ChiComs sent one of their submarines around the world to blow up the Russian pipelines in the NATO-controlled portion of the Baltic. Lucky for them that Biden and other top American officials had previously promised to do exactly that, thereby diverting suspicion in a different direction. Everyone knows that the ChiComs own Biden, so they probably ordered him to make those statements. Then a day or two later, Blinken said how beneficial the inexplicable destruction of the Russian pipelines would be for America’s strategic position, so the ChiComs probably own him as well.

    You’re just digging yourself into an immensely deep hole. I can’t understand why an intelligent person would want to present himself as an archetypal IQ 95 “Patriotard” but so be it.

    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    @Ron Unz

    This seems interesting and highly significant.

    https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1578432476682326020

    https://twitter.com/jordanschnyc/status/1580889342402129921

    What's your reaction to this development?

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @Ron Unz

    , @Twinkie
    @Ron Unz

    What are you raving about? Don’t put words in my mouth. I clearly stated thusly:


    I’m not saying this is likely, but merely a possibility you left out.
     
    When you run an investigation you don’t just dismiss suspects and possibilities out of hand. You put everything on the table and use evidence to eliminate impossibilities (hence the emphasis on alibis of suspects) and then narrow the possibilities until you uncover evidences to confirm.

    As it stands, I don’t have access to evidence, so I must rely on presumed motives (which is very weak sauce as evidence). Yes, USG has motives. So do some US allies and proxies (a friend working in Poland told me the Poles were itching for a fight). As do other actors. If I had access to the technical data about the explosion and damage, I’d be able to narrow the methodology and suspects considerably. Until then it’s just conjecture.

    an archetypal IQ 95 “Patriotard”
     
    I don’t even know what that means, but it reeks of unwarranted elitism. And if we were to fling ad hominem, I can certainly think of a few given your behaviors, but I won’t since it’s impolite insult the host at his own house.

    I’m just baffled where this naïveté about trusting the Russian government announcements comes from, given how untrustworthy it has been (and I’m not suggesting any other government, including our own, has been more trustworthy). You seem to be locked in a bizarre moral Manicheanism of sorts in an international context.

    Replies: @Ron Unz

  242. @Ron Unz
    @Twinkie


    Another possibility is that a third party did it. There are those that benefit from 1) a prolonged conflict between the West and Russia and 2) increased availability of Russian energy supplies in non-Western markets. I’m not saying this is likely, but merely a possibility you left out.
     
    Yep, I'm sure the vile ChiComs sent one of their submarines around the world to blow up the Russian pipelines in the NATO-controlled portion of the Baltic. Lucky for them that Biden and other top American officials had previously promised to do exactly that, thereby diverting suspicion in a different direction. Everyone knows that the ChiComs own Biden, so they probably ordered him to make those statements. Then a day or two later, Blinken said how beneficial the inexplicable destruction of the Russian pipelines would be for America's strategic position, so the ChiComs probably own him as well.

    You're just digging yourself into an immensely deep hole. I can't understand why an intelligent person would want to present himself as an archetypal IQ 95 "Patriotard" but so be it.

    Replies: @JohnnyWalker123, @Twinkie

    This seems interesting and highly significant.

    What’s your reaction to this development?

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @JohnnyWalker123

    Most current, most extensive discussion of the US embargo of advanced chip tech on iSteve is in this more recent topic: ABC: "Xi's China May Represent the End of Whiteness. Except That the Chinese Communist Party Itself Mirrors Whiteness."

    , @Ron Unz
    @JohnnyWalker123


    What’s your reaction to this development?
     
    Well, it looks like the USSA has decided to go into "Iron Curtain" mode.
  243. @Ron Unz
    @Twinkie


    Another possibility is that a third party did it. There are those that benefit from 1) a prolonged conflict between the West and Russia and 2) increased availability of Russian energy supplies in non-Western markets. I’m not saying this is likely, but merely a possibility you left out.
     
    Yep, I'm sure the vile ChiComs sent one of their submarines around the world to blow up the Russian pipelines in the NATO-controlled portion of the Baltic. Lucky for them that Biden and other top American officials had previously promised to do exactly that, thereby diverting suspicion in a different direction. Everyone knows that the ChiComs own Biden, so they probably ordered him to make those statements. Then a day or two later, Blinken said how beneficial the inexplicable destruction of the Russian pipelines would be for America's strategic position, so the ChiComs probably own him as well.

    You're just digging yourself into an immensely deep hole. I can't understand why an intelligent person would want to present himself as an archetypal IQ 95 "Patriotard" but so be it.

    Replies: @JohnnyWalker123, @Twinkie

    What are you raving about? Don’t put words in my mouth. I clearly stated thusly:

    I’m not saying this is likely, but merely a possibility you left out.

    When you run an investigation you don’t just dismiss suspects and possibilities out of hand. You put everything on the table and use evidence to eliminate impossibilities (hence the emphasis on alibis of suspects) and then narrow the possibilities until you uncover evidences to confirm.

    As it stands, I don’t have access to evidence, so I must rely on presumed motives (which is very weak sauce as evidence). Yes, USG has motives. So do some US allies and proxies (a friend working in Poland told me the Poles were itching for a fight). As do other actors. If I had access to the technical data about the explosion and damage, I’d be able to narrow the methodology and suspects considerably. Until then it’s just conjecture.

    an archetypal IQ 95 “Patriotard”

    I don’t even know what that means, but it reeks of unwarranted elitism. And if we were to fling ad hominem, I can certainly think of a few given your behaviors, but I won’t since it’s impolite insult the host at his own house.

    I’m just baffled where this naïveté about trusting the Russian government announcements comes from, given how untrustworthy it has been (and I’m not suggesting any other government, including our own, has been more trustworthy). You seem to be locked in a bizarre moral Manicheanism of sorts in an international context.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    @Twinkie


    When you run an investigation you don’t just dismiss suspects and possibilities out of hand.
     
    Sure. Someone also put up an entire, detailed webpage arguing that the pipelines spontaneously exploded because the Russians had done such a poor job of maintaining them.

    Meanwhile, in the real world, a commenter pointed me to an excellent Tucker Carlson segment from 10 days ago in which he ridicules the American government and MSM for their blatant lies about who destroyed the Russian pipelines:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0Abayg3k_o

    By most accounts, the impact upon the European economy of the lost pipelines will be enormous, one of the worst blows they've suffered in decades. Assuming the pipelines aren't repairable, we're talking 20-odd billion dollars of destroyed civilian infrastructure, something several times larger than the 9/11 attacks, but there's been no sustained coverage in the American MSM. I'll bet that 70% of Americans aren't even aware it happened. Since 95% of the initial MSM stories have claimed or suggested that Putin did it, perhaps the relative MSM silence indicates that the MSM is in Putin's pocket.

    The reason I'm focusing on this particular issue is simple. I'm doubtful of your high Russian casualty estimates since they're mostly based upon Ukrainian Tweets, and I think the Neocons are experts at faking propaganda-Tweets. But I haven't spent any time looking into the matter so it's certainly possible that you're correct. Therefore, I must weigh your credibility against that of Col. Douglas Macgregor and other military experts who have a very different opinion.

    And your flat-out refusal to accept reality in the case of the Nord Stream pipeline attacks demolishes your credibility in my mind.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  244. @JohnnyWalker123
    @Ron Unz

    This seems interesting and highly significant.

    https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1578432476682326020

    https://twitter.com/jordanschnyc/status/1580889342402129921

    What's your reaction to this development?

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @Ron Unz

    Most current, most extensive discussion of the US embargo of advanced chip tech on iSteve is in this more recent topic: ABC: “Xi’s China May Represent the End of Whiteness. Except That the Chinese Communist Party Itself Mirrors Whiteness.”

  245. @Twinkie
    @Ron Unz

    What are you raving about? Don’t put words in my mouth. I clearly stated thusly:


    I’m not saying this is likely, but merely a possibility you left out.
     
    When you run an investigation you don’t just dismiss suspects and possibilities out of hand. You put everything on the table and use evidence to eliminate impossibilities (hence the emphasis on alibis of suspects) and then narrow the possibilities until you uncover evidences to confirm.

    As it stands, I don’t have access to evidence, so I must rely on presumed motives (which is very weak sauce as evidence). Yes, USG has motives. So do some US allies and proxies (a friend working in Poland told me the Poles were itching for a fight). As do other actors. If I had access to the technical data about the explosion and damage, I’d be able to narrow the methodology and suspects considerably. Until then it’s just conjecture.

    an archetypal IQ 95 “Patriotard”
     
    I don’t even know what that means, but it reeks of unwarranted elitism. And if we were to fling ad hominem, I can certainly think of a few given your behaviors, but I won’t since it’s impolite insult the host at his own house.

    I’m just baffled where this naïveté about trusting the Russian government announcements comes from, given how untrustworthy it has been (and I’m not suggesting any other government, including our own, has been more trustworthy). You seem to be locked in a bizarre moral Manicheanism of sorts in an international context.

    Replies: @Ron Unz

    When you run an investigation you don’t just dismiss suspects and possibilities out of hand.

    Sure. Someone also put up an entire, detailed webpage arguing that the pipelines spontaneously exploded because the Russians had done such a poor job of maintaining them.

    Meanwhile, in the real world, a commenter pointed me to an excellent Tucker Carlson segment from 10 days ago in which he ridicules the American government and MSM for their blatant lies about who destroyed the Russian pipelines:

    By most accounts, the impact upon the European economy of the lost pipelines will be enormous, one of the worst blows they’ve suffered in decades. Assuming the pipelines aren’t repairable, we’re talking 20-odd billion dollars of destroyed civilian infrastructure, something several times larger than the 9/11 attacks, but there’s been no sustained coverage in the American MSM. I’ll bet that 70% of Americans aren’t even aware it happened. Since 95% of the initial MSM stories have claimed or suggested that Putin did it, perhaps the relative MSM silence indicates that the MSM is in Putin’s pocket.

    The reason I’m focusing on this particular issue is simple. I’m doubtful of your high Russian casualty estimates since they’re mostly based upon Ukrainian Tweets, and I think the Neocons are experts at faking propaganda-Tweets. But I haven’t spent any time looking into the matter so it’s certainly possible that you’re correct. Therefore, I must weigh your credibility against that of Col. Douglas Macgregor and other military experts who have a very different opinion.

    And your flat-out refusal to accept reality in the case of the Nord Stream pipeline attacks demolishes your credibility in my mind.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Ron Unz


    Sure. Someone also put up an entire, detailed webpage arguing that the pipelines spontaneously exploded because the Russians had done such a poor job of maintaining them.
     
    I grant you the timing is exceptionally suspicious for maintenance failure. Either way, this claim can be falsified quite easily with the technical data.

    I’ll bet that 70% of Americans aren’t even aware it happened.
     
    90% of Americans probably couldn't locate Kiev on the map. What is your point?

    Therefore, I must weigh your credibility against that of Col. Douglas Macgregor and other military experts who have a very different opinion.
     
    That's just a slightly dressed up version of ad hominem.

    Look at it this way. Since you and I first began this argument, how have the real events on the ground turn out? Most of the dissidents whose credibility you seem to value so highly predicted that Russia would win. Remember Scott Ritter arguing that the attempted blitz on Kiev was just a diversion, so that the Russians could overrun the east, including Kharkiv? He even scolded Steve Sailer to "stay in his lane," because he, Ritter, was a maneuver warfare expert. Since then, the Ukrainians essentially destroyed an entire elite Russian tank army in the east (after feinting to the south/Kherson sector). Things actually turned out to be the exact opposite of what they claimed.

    Meanwhile, I did not subscribe to the maximalist claims of the Western media and the Ukrainian government, but I did suspect that the Russians suffered substantial casualties (roughly halfway between what the respective sides claimed). This was based on the material evidence (from a site that tracks both Russian and Ukrainian equipment losses) and my own analysis of seeing very poor tactical behaviors of Russian troops in video footages. I surmised that the Russian offensive potential was significantly degraded: https://www.unz.com/isteve/putins-flawless-strategic-master-plan-is-working-out-perfectly/#comment-5287649


    I should also note that while the Russian military doesn’t have as big of an administrative and logistical tail as the United States military, it’s still a modern military force whose combat components are a significant minority of the overall military force/personnel/infrastructure. It doesn’t take huge losses for such a force to start experiencing degraded offensive capability. At the onset of the conflict, the Russian army supposedly had about 168 battalion tactical groups (BTGs), of which 60 were deployed to Ukraine. Each BTG has about 800 troops. That means about 48,000 in Ukraine. If they suffered anything close to what I think (roughly 8,00o KIA, plus a multiple of that in wounded and unaccounted for), that likely means a significant reduction in the combat power, which I suspect is why they are now redeploying and reinforcing their forces and limiting the scope of their operations to Donbas.
     
    Whose assessment turned out to bear out closer to the real life events in six months since I wrote it?

    I am starting to suspect that your obstinacy is tragically overcoming your intellect and that you are a lot more irrational than I thought - must I state explicitly that my view or non-view on the subject of pipeline explosion has NOTHING at all to do with the level of accuracy of my assessment on Russian losses in Ukraine?

    I made this very argument in your favor on another thread. Some Hasbara troll painted you as an anti-Semitic nut, and I (along with commenter "res") asked him to address the substance of your meritocracy and Hispanic crime articles on their own merits: https://www.unz.com/isteve/larry-summers-lets-talk-about-discrimination-against-jews-at-stanford-in-1953/#comment-5605348

    Sheesh, you are starting to sound like - on this topic - that one author who wrote that Covid only killed Asians and kept embarrassingly revising as facts contradicted him in time ("only Asians and Iranians," "Still no whites...").

  246. @JohnnyWalker123
    @Ron Unz

    This seems interesting and highly significant.

    https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1578432476682326020

    https://twitter.com/jordanschnyc/status/1580889342402129921

    What's your reaction to this development?

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @Ron Unz

    What’s your reaction to this development?

    Well, it looks like the USSA has decided to go into “Iron Curtain” mode.

  247. @Ron Unz
    @Twinkie


    When you run an investigation you don’t just dismiss suspects and possibilities out of hand.
     
    Sure. Someone also put up an entire, detailed webpage arguing that the pipelines spontaneously exploded because the Russians had done such a poor job of maintaining them.

    Meanwhile, in the real world, a commenter pointed me to an excellent Tucker Carlson segment from 10 days ago in which he ridicules the American government and MSM for their blatant lies about who destroyed the Russian pipelines:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0Abayg3k_o

    By most accounts, the impact upon the European economy of the lost pipelines will be enormous, one of the worst blows they've suffered in decades. Assuming the pipelines aren't repairable, we're talking 20-odd billion dollars of destroyed civilian infrastructure, something several times larger than the 9/11 attacks, but there's been no sustained coverage in the American MSM. I'll bet that 70% of Americans aren't even aware it happened. Since 95% of the initial MSM stories have claimed or suggested that Putin did it, perhaps the relative MSM silence indicates that the MSM is in Putin's pocket.

    The reason I'm focusing on this particular issue is simple. I'm doubtful of your high Russian casualty estimates since they're mostly based upon Ukrainian Tweets, and I think the Neocons are experts at faking propaganda-Tweets. But I haven't spent any time looking into the matter so it's certainly possible that you're correct. Therefore, I must weigh your credibility against that of Col. Douglas Macgregor and other military experts who have a very different opinion.

    And your flat-out refusal to accept reality in the case of the Nord Stream pipeline attacks demolishes your credibility in my mind.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    Sure. Someone also put up an entire, detailed webpage arguing that the pipelines spontaneously exploded because the Russians had done such a poor job of maintaining them.

    I grant you the timing is exceptionally suspicious for maintenance failure. Either way, this claim can be falsified quite easily with the technical data.

    I’ll bet that 70% of Americans aren’t even aware it happened.

    90% of Americans probably couldn’t locate Kiev on the map. What is your point?

    Therefore, I must weigh your credibility against that of Col. Douglas Macgregor and other military experts who have a very different opinion.

    That’s just a slightly dressed up version of ad hominem.

    Look at it this way. Since you and I first began this argument, how have the real events on the ground turn out? Most of the dissidents whose credibility you seem to value so highly predicted that Russia would win. Remember Scott Ritter arguing that the attempted blitz on Kiev was just a diversion, so that the Russians could overrun the east, including Kharkiv? He even scolded Steve Sailer to “stay in his lane,” because he, Ritter, was a maneuver warfare expert. Since then, the Ukrainians essentially destroyed an entire elite Russian tank army in the east (after feinting to the south/Kherson sector). Things actually turned out to be the exact opposite of what they claimed.

    Meanwhile, I did not subscribe to the maximalist claims of the Western media and the Ukrainian government, but I did suspect that the Russians suffered substantial casualties (roughly halfway between what the respective sides claimed). This was based on the material evidence (from a site that tracks both Russian and Ukrainian equipment losses) and my own analysis of seeing very poor tactical behaviors of Russian troops in video footages. I surmised that the Russian offensive potential was significantly degraded: https://www.unz.com/isteve/putins-flawless-strategic-master-plan-is-working-out-perfectly/#comment-5287649

    I should also note that while the Russian military doesn’t have as big of an administrative and logistical tail as the United States military, it’s still a modern military force whose combat components are a significant minority of the overall military force/personnel/infrastructure. It doesn’t take huge losses for such a force to start experiencing degraded offensive capability. At the onset of the conflict, the Russian army supposedly had about 168 battalion tactical groups (BTGs), of which 60 were deployed to Ukraine. Each BTG has about 800 troops. That means about 48,000 in Ukraine. If they suffered anything close to what I think (roughly 8,00o KIA, plus a multiple of that in wounded and unaccounted for), that likely means a significant reduction in the combat power, which I suspect is why they are now redeploying and reinforcing their forces and limiting the scope of their operations to Donbas.

    Whose assessment turned out to bear out closer to the real life events in six months since I wrote it?

    I am starting to suspect that your obstinacy is tragically overcoming your intellect and that you are a lot more irrational than I thought – must I state explicitly that my view or non-view on the subject of pipeline explosion has NOTHING at all to do with the level of accuracy of my assessment on Russian losses in Ukraine?

    I made this very argument in your favor on another thread. Some Hasbara troll painted you as an anti-Semitic nut, and I (along with commenter “res”) asked him to address the substance of your meritocracy and Hispanic crime articles on their own merits: https://www.unz.com/isteve/larry-summers-lets-talk-about-discrimination-against-jews-at-stanford-in-1953/#comment-5605348

    Sheesh, you are starting to sound like – on this topic – that one author who wrote that Covid only killed Asians and kept embarrassingly revising as facts contradicted him in time (“only Asians and Iranians,” “Still no whites…”).

  248. @Curle
    @animalogic

    “Such matters should be settled by a nonpolitical administrative body, based upon strict rules & demographic facts.”

    You’re joking, right? Courts, which are administrative bodies, can’t figure out how to create majority minority districts without creating bizarre gerrymandered districts. Someone has to choose the relevant demographic facts. Best solution I’ve heard of involves computer programs that are programmed for one task, creating a map of compact boundaries based solely on registered voters.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @animalogic

    No not joking.
    In Australia (at a federal level, at least) that’s the way it’s done. No one seems to have many complaints, at least to my knowledge.

  249. I am starting to suspect that your obstinacy is tragically overcoming your intellect and that you are a lot more irrational than I thought – must I state explicitly that my view or non-view on the subject of pipeline explosion has NOTHING at all to do with the level of accuracy of my assessment on Russian losses in Ukraine?

    I made this very argument in your favor on another thread. Some Hasbara troll painted you as an anti-Semitic nut, and I (along with commenter “res”) asked him to address the substance of your meritocracy and Hispanic crime articles on their own merits:

    Actually, I’d just looked at that isteve thread earlier this morning and had noticed your very gracious citations from my Meritocracy analysis, as well your concession that my Hispanic Crime analysis was probably correct, even though you’d fiercely argued against it a few years ago. Under those circumstances, I really don’t want to continue this pointless, bitter dispute.

    As I said, I haven’t closely followed the Ukraine conflict, but my own view is that there’s a 60% chance the Russian casualties are closer to my figures than to yours. Do keep in mind that I fully acknowledge that the large number of Donbass and Wagner KIAs are excluded from the official Russian totals to make the numbers look much better. I’d never taken any particular position on whether the Russians would achieve a rapid, crushing victory, though I’d certainly expected them to eventually win the war.

    However, I do firmly believe that there’s a 90-95% chance that senior American government officials played a crucial role in the Nord Stream pipeline attacks, given that any other possibility seems so extremely implausible. I was shocked by your contrary position and that’s the issue I’ve been arguing here.

    Finally, I do think that you’ll eventually recognize that a large majority of my ultra-controversial American Pravda articles are also probably correct, just like you did with my Hispanic Crime analysis. However, I certainly understand that such an enormous change in one’s preconceived framework of reality requires a great deal of time to properly absorb and digest.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Ron Unz


    your concession that my Hispanic Crime analysis was probably correct, even though you’d fiercely argued against it a few years ago.
     
    You remember incorrectly, Mr. Unz. I was skeptical about the extent of your argument (that Hispanic crime rate was comparable to the white rate - I thought it in-between white and black rates) and did not "fiercely argue against it." I merely "poked some holes" in it and suggested some counter-arguments (meanwhile, there were commenters who were apoplectic and indeed "fiercely argued against it).

    But I understood the age- and sex-norming argument well and considered it in your favor. I also still think that you neglect to address seriously 1) the apparent "downward assimilation" between foreign-born and native-born populations in crime, which appears to be pronounced among Hispanics (compared to whites and Asians) and 2) the possibility that Hispanics have high circumstantial variance in crime (e.g. based on the strength of the state/authorities - low criminality where there is high LE presence, such as the US-side of the US-Mexican border, but high criminality where the state is weak, such as numerous Latin American countries), which did not bode well in increasingly defanged American LE context. So don't quite count me as fully convinced.

    Similarly, I will withdraw endorsement of your American meritocracy article if evidence were to surface that the fraction of Jews at elite universities is substantially lower than estimated by you (though, given the number involved, it really would have to be an extreme amount of overcounting of Jews on your part for me to do so).

    Finally, I do think that you’ll eventually recognize that a large majority of my ultra-controversial American Pravda articles are also probably correct, just like you did with my Hispanic Crime analysis.
     
    As I wrote in the other thread:

    Mr. Unz’s meritocracy and Hispanic crime articles are extremely thorough and thought-provoking. And, frankly, they are quite convincing – precisely because the methodology and datasets are transparent and available and can be debated and “falsified.” Then there are other articles of his that are very long on conjectures and “textual analysis” and light on evidence, which are much less convincing to say the least. And, yes, I find some of his views quite cranky and deranged
     
    Regrettably, no man is right about everything. As investment literature warns me, "Past performance is not a guarantee of future performance."

    I was shocked by your contrary position
     
    What contrary position? I don't have a position on the pipeline explosion, period! I simply don't have an intelligent opinion to offer on that, because I don't have any specific, relevant technical information. To repeat, I don't assess events based on motivations of possible actors - experience and knowledge have taught me that this is liable to lead me astray often enough. I base assessments of events on material evidence. I simply don't have any on the pipeline attack, so I withhold putting forth an opinion on the matter. I think sane and wise people call that prudence.

    I really don’t want to continue this pointless, bitter dispute.
     
    It's only "bitter," because you keep calling me names and attribute base motives to me (which in the past included supposedly making money off defense contracting and thus supporting war-mongering). For me, this is not personal, though you keep trying to make it so.

    I'd like to engage the substance of the arguments, period. And I wish you'd do the same.

    Now, I can't stop you if you want to simply withdraw from this conversation (which escalated due to your inability to take a very mild, one-sentence joke), but I note that you fail to address the point I made in the last comment:

    Whose assessment turned out to bear out closer to the real life events in six months since I wrote it?
     

    Replies: @Ron Unz

  250. @Ron Unz

    I am starting to suspect that your obstinacy is tragically overcoming your intellect and that you are a lot more irrational than I thought – must I state explicitly that my view or non-view on the subject of pipeline explosion has NOTHING at all to do with the level of accuracy of my assessment on Russian losses in Ukraine?

    I made this very argument in your favor on another thread. Some Hasbara troll painted you as an anti-Semitic nut, and I (along with commenter “res”) asked him to address the substance of your meritocracy and Hispanic crime articles on their own merits:
     
    Actually, I'd just looked at that isteve thread earlier this morning and had noticed your very gracious citations from my Meritocracy analysis, as well your concession that my Hispanic Crime analysis was probably correct, even though you'd fiercely argued against it a few years ago. Under those circumstances, I really don't want to continue this pointless, bitter dispute.

    As I said, I haven't closely followed the Ukraine conflict, but my own view is that there's a 60% chance the Russian casualties are closer to my figures than to yours. Do keep in mind that I fully acknowledge that the large number of Donbass and Wagner KIAs are excluded from the official Russian totals to make the numbers look much better. I'd never taken any particular position on whether the Russians would achieve a rapid, crushing victory, though I'd certainly expected them to eventually win the war.

    However, I do firmly believe that there's a 90-95% chance that senior American government officials played a crucial role in the Nord Stream pipeline attacks, given that any other possibility seems so extremely implausible. I was shocked by your contrary position and that's the issue I've been arguing here.

    Finally, I do think that you'll eventually recognize that a large majority of my ultra-controversial American Pravda articles are also probably correct, just like you did with my Hispanic Crime analysis. However, I certainly understand that such an enormous change in one's preconceived framework of reality requires a great deal of time to properly absorb and digest.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    your concession that my Hispanic Crime analysis was probably correct, even though you’d fiercely argued against it a few years ago.

    You remember incorrectly, Mr. Unz. I was skeptical about the extent of your argument (that Hispanic crime rate was comparable to the white rate – I thought it in-between white and black rates) and did not “fiercely argue against it.” I merely “poked some holes” in it and suggested some counter-arguments (meanwhile, there were commenters who were apoplectic and indeed “fiercely argued against it).

    But I understood the age- and sex-norming argument well and considered it in your favor. I also still think that you neglect to address seriously 1) the apparent “downward assimilation” between foreign-born and native-born populations in crime, which appears to be pronounced among Hispanics (compared to whites and Asians) and 2) the possibility that Hispanics have high circumstantial variance in crime (e.g. based on the strength of the state/authorities – low criminality where there is high LE presence, such as the US-side of the US-Mexican border, but high criminality where the state is weak, such as numerous Latin American countries), which did not bode well in increasingly defanged American LE context. So don’t quite count me as fully convinced.

    Similarly, I will withdraw endorsement of your American meritocracy article if evidence were to surface that the fraction of Jews at elite universities is substantially lower than estimated by you (though, given the number involved, it really would have to be an extreme amount of overcounting of Jews on your part for me to do so).

    Finally, I do think that you’ll eventually recognize that a large majority of my ultra-controversial American Pravda articles are also probably correct, just like you did with my Hispanic Crime analysis.

    As I wrote in the other thread:

    Mr. Unz’s meritocracy and Hispanic crime articles are extremely thorough and thought-provoking. And, frankly, they are quite convincing – precisely because the methodology and datasets are transparent and available and can be debated and “falsified.” Then there are other articles of his that are very long on conjectures and “textual analysis” and light on evidence, which are much less convincing to say the least. And, yes, I find some of his views quite cranky and deranged

    Regrettably, no man is right about everything. As investment literature warns me, “Past performance is not a guarantee of future performance.”

    I was shocked by your contrary position

    What contrary position? I don’t have a position on the pipeline explosion, period! I simply don’t have an intelligent opinion to offer on that, because I don’t have any specific, relevant technical information. To repeat, I don’t assess events based on motivations of possible actors – experience and knowledge have taught me that this is liable to lead me astray often enough. I base assessments of events on material evidence. I simply don’t have any on the pipeline attack, so I withhold putting forth an opinion on the matter. I think sane and wise people call that prudence.

    I really don’t want to continue this pointless, bitter dispute.

    It’s only “bitter,” because you keep calling me names and attribute base motives to me (which in the past included supposedly making money off defense contracting and thus supporting war-mongering). For me, this is not personal, though you keep trying to make it so.

    I’d like to engage the substance of the arguments, period. And I wish you’d do the same.

    Now, I can’t stop you if you want to simply withdraw from this conversation (which escalated due to your inability to take a very mild, one-sentence joke), but I note that you fail to address the point I made in the last comment:

    Whose assessment turned out to bear out closer to the real life events in six months since I wrote it?

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    @Twinkie


    You remember incorrectly, Mr. Unz. I was skeptical about the extent of your argument (that Hispanic crime rate was comparable to the white rate – I thought it in-between white and black rates) and did not “fiercely argue against it.”...I also still think that you neglect to address seriously 1) the apparent “downward assimilation” between foreign-born and native-born populations in crime, which appears to be pronounced among Hispanics
     
    Well, the dispute was more than seven years ago, so I had to refresh my memory by reexamining the thread:

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/black-students-in-san-francisco-29x-as-likely-as-whites-to-be-arrested/

    However, I think my recollection was generally correct. Your main argument was:

    The conclusion of the study was that, among Mexicans, for example, the arrest rate of foreign-born Mexicans was slightly LOWER than that of American-born whites. However, among American-born Mexicans, their arrest rate was SEVEN TIMES that of the foreign-born Mexicans and thus several times higher than that of American-born whites.
     
    So I pointed out that 600% difference in crime rates was totally ridiculous, contradicted by all the empirical evidence, and obviously due to very poorly designed study, which had already been debunked by a paper I cited in my article. Our resulting exchanges went on for dozens of comments, and here are several of my most relevant ones:

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/black-students-in-san-francisco-29x-as-likely-as-whites-to-be-arrested/#comment-877929

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/black-students-in-san-francisco-29x-as-likely-as-whites-to-be-arrested/#comment-885094

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/black-students-in-san-francisco-29x-as-likely-as-whites-to-be-arrested/#comment-881243

    I don't wish to reignite our current antagonistic dispute, but your willingness to blindly accept a study absurdly claiming that native-born Hispanics have 600% higher crime rates than immigrant ones without applying a little common sense is troubling. If that were true, the rapidly growing fraction of the native-born Hispanic population over the last decade or two would obviously have resulted in skyrocketing Hispanic crime rates, but it didn't. And if you look at my comments, the claim would obviously be contradicted by the SF data that was the original subject of the post.

    Obviously, the report of 7x higher crime rates should have been critically examined than casually swallowed. Similarly, I'm very skeptical of being able to accurately estimate Russian losses by aggregating Ukrainian propaganda-Tweets given the enormous effort the Ukrainians and their Neocon backers have invested in the propaganda side of their war.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Twinkie

  251. @Twinkie
    @Ron Unz


    your concession that my Hispanic Crime analysis was probably correct, even though you’d fiercely argued against it a few years ago.
     
    You remember incorrectly, Mr. Unz. I was skeptical about the extent of your argument (that Hispanic crime rate was comparable to the white rate - I thought it in-between white and black rates) and did not "fiercely argue against it." I merely "poked some holes" in it and suggested some counter-arguments (meanwhile, there were commenters who were apoplectic and indeed "fiercely argued against it).

    But I understood the age- and sex-norming argument well and considered it in your favor. I also still think that you neglect to address seriously 1) the apparent "downward assimilation" between foreign-born and native-born populations in crime, which appears to be pronounced among Hispanics (compared to whites and Asians) and 2) the possibility that Hispanics have high circumstantial variance in crime (e.g. based on the strength of the state/authorities - low criminality where there is high LE presence, such as the US-side of the US-Mexican border, but high criminality where the state is weak, such as numerous Latin American countries), which did not bode well in increasingly defanged American LE context. So don't quite count me as fully convinced.

    Similarly, I will withdraw endorsement of your American meritocracy article if evidence were to surface that the fraction of Jews at elite universities is substantially lower than estimated by you (though, given the number involved, it really would have to be an extreme amount of overcounting of Jews on your part for me to do so).

    Finally, I do think that you’ll eventually recognize that a large majority of my ultra-controversial American Pravda articles are also probably correct, just like you did with my Hispanic Crime analysis.
     
    As I wrote in the other thread:

    Mr. Unz’s meritocracy and Hispanic crime articles are extremely thorough and thought-provoking. And, frankly, they are quite convincing – precisely because the methodology and datasets are transparent and available and can be debated and “falsified.” Then there are other articles of his that are very long on conjectures and “textual analysis” and light on evidence, which are much less convincing to say the least. And, yes, I find some of his views quite cranky and deranged
     
    Regrettably, no man is right about everything. As investment literature warns me, "Past performance is not a guarantee of future performance."

    I was shocked by your contrary position
     
    What contrary position? I don't have a position on the pipeline explosion, period! I simply don't have an intelligent opinion to offer on that, because I don't have any specific, relevant technical information. To repeat, I don't assess events based on motivations of possible actors - experience and knowledge have taught me that this is liable to lead me astray often enough. I base assessments of events on material evidence. I simply don't have any on the pipeline attack, so I withhold putting forth an opinion on the matter. I think sane and wise people call that prudence.

    I really don’t want to continue this pointless, bitter dispute.
     
    It's only "bitter," because you keep calling me names and attribute base motives to me (which in the past included supposedly making money off defense contracting and thus supporting war-mongering). For me, this is not personal, though you keep trying to make it so.

    I'd like to engage the substance of the arguments, period. And I wish you'd do the same.

    Now, I can't stop you if you want to simply withdraw from this conversation (which escalated due to your inability to take a very mild, one-sentence joke), but I note that you fail to address the point I made in the last comment:

    Whose assessment turned out to bear out closer to the real life events in six months since I wrote it?
     

    Replies: @Ron Unz

    You remember incorrectly, Mr. Unz. I was skeptical about the extent of your argument (that Hispanic crime rate was comparable to the white rate – I thought it in-between white and black rates) and did not “fiercely argue against it.”…I also still think that you neglect to address seriously 1) the apparent “downward assimilation” between foreign-born and native-born populations in crime, which appears to be pronounced among Hispanics

    Well, the dispute was more than seven years ago, so I had to refresh my memory by reexamining the thread:

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/black-students-in-san-francisco-29x-as-likely-as-whites-to-be-arrested/

    However, I think my recollection was generally correct. Your main argument was:

    The conclusion of the study was that, among Mexicans, for example, the arrest rate of foreign-born Mexicans was slightly LOWER than that of American-born whites. However, among American-born Mexicans, their arrest rate was SEVEN TIMES that of the foreign-born Mexicans and thus several times higher than that of American-born whites.

    So I pointed out that 600% difference in crime rates was totally ridiculous, contradicted by all the empirical evidence, and obviously due to very poorly designed study, which had already been debunked by a paper I cited in my article. Our resulting exchanges went on for dozens of comments, and here are several of my most relevant ones:

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/black-students-in-san-francisco-29x-as-likely-as-whites-to-be-arrested/#comment-877929

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/black-students-in-san-francisco-29x-as-likely-as-whites-to-be-arrested/#comment-885094

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/black-students-in-san-francisco-29x-as-likely-as-whites-to-be-arrested/#comment-881243

    I don’t wish to reignite our current antagonistic dispute, but your willingness to blindly accept a study absurdly claiming that native-born Hispanics have 600% higher crime rates than immigrant ones without applying a little common sense is troubling. If that were true, the rapidly growing fraction of the native-born Hispanic population over the last decade or two would obviously have resulted in skyrocketing Hispanic crime rates, but it didn’t. And if you look at my comments, the claim would obviously be contradicted by the SF data that was the original subject of the post.

    Obviously, the report of 7x higher crime rates should have been critically examined than casually swallowed. Similarly, I’m very skeptical of being able to accurately estimate Russian losses by aggregating Ukrainian propaganda-Tweets given the enormous effort the Ukrainians and their Neocon backers have invested in the propaganda side of their war.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Ron Unz


    However, I think my recollection was generally correct.
     
    It was not. My correspondence with you was entirely substantive in nature (not what I would call "fierce" argumentation - at one point, I even told you I'd review the data and reconsider) while you fell into your bad habit of getting personal, so I pointed out thusly:

    You don’t have to go into typecasting and insult mode again, however.
     
    Also, regarding the foreign-born Hispanic vs. American-born Hispanic issue, I asked the following and you never responded:

    One more thought. If the Hispanic self-identification as American citizens due to fear of deportation were the main explanatory variable, why is it that the “curse of assimilate” rates differed so significantly by ethno-racial groups?

    Are Asian illegals less afraid of deportation? Or are Asian illegals for some reason more honest than Hispanic ones?

    How do you account for the fact that European and Asian numbers had a very small increase from foreign-born to native-born numbers unlike the Mexican numbers?
     

    Oh, my days, this again:

    Similarly, I’m very skeptical of being able to accurately estimate Russian losses by aggregating Ukrainian propaganda-Tweets given the enormous effort the Ukrainians and their Neocon backers have invested in the propaganda side of their war.
     
    You know that site also aggregates Ukrainian equipment losses, right? https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-ukrainian.html

    Again, you put too much stock in "motives," and not enough on material evidence. What did I say in favor of your arguments in the American meritocracy and Hispanic crime articles? I said that your methodology and datasets are transparent and can be debated and validated/falsifiable, yes? In contrast to most of those who object to your argumentation based on their "feelz"?

    Now, my methodology and datasets are transparent. Where are yours or those of the analysts whose motives you trust so much?

    Moreover, since I made my assessment six months ago, whose view seems to have been borne out by the actual events on the ground subsequently? I assessed that the Russians suffered substantial losses and their offensive capability was severely degraded. The analysts on whom you rely so much downplayed the Russian losses and expected the Russians to win imminently (Ritter, for example, went so far as to suggest that the blitz on Kiev was a "feint" to draw Ukrainian forces from the east and expected the Russians do overwhelm the Ukrainians in the east in brilliant "maneuver warfare").

    Replies: @Ron Unz

    , @Twinkie
    @Ron Unz


    Well, the dispute was more than seven years ago
     
    By the way, it's insane that I've spent this much time on your site for seven+ years! With this much attention and effort on my part on your webzine, you should have given me a blog! ;)

    "Asian Privilege Blog - brought to you by Twinkie, the Internet's Toughest Asian!"
    All things Asian and fighting, both interpersonal and international

    My wife is generally very happy with me as a husband, but she does often say, "Stop wasting time arguing with morons on the internet!" (to be clear, by "morons," she means the other commenters here - she doesn't know who you are, but I suspect she'd think you are a bit crazy, not stupid, if she were directly exposed to your writings).

  252. @Ron Unz
    @Twinkie


    You remember incorrectly, Mr. Unz. I was skeptical about the extent of your argument (that Hispanic crime rate was comparable to the white rate – I thought it in-between white and black rates) and did not “fiercely argue against it.”...I also still think that you neglect to address seriously 1) the apparent “downward assimilation” between foreign-born and native-born populations in crime, which appears to be pronounced among Hispanics
     
    Well, the dispute was more than seven years ago, so I had to refresh my memory by reexamining the thread:

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/black-students-in-san-francisco-29x-as-likely-as-whites-to-be-arrested/

    However, I think my recollection was generally correct. Your main argument was:

    The conclusion of the study was that, among Mexicans, for example, the arrest rate of foreign-born Mexicans was slightly LOWER than that of American-born whites. However, among American-born Mexicans, their arrest rate was SEVEN TIMES that of the foreign-born Mexicans and thus several times higher than that of American-born whites.
     
    So I pointed out that 600% difference in crime rates was totally ridiculous, contradicted by all the empirical evidence, and obviously due to very poorly designed study, which had already been debunked by a paper I cited in my article. Our resulting exchanges went on for dozens of comments, and here are several of my most relevant ones:

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/black-students-in-san-francisco-29x-as-likely-as-whites-to-be-arrested/#comment-877929

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/black-students-in-san-francisco-29x-as-likely-as-whites-to-be-arrested/#comment-885094

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/black-students-in-san-francisco-29x-as-likely-as-whites-to-be-arrested/#comment-881243

    I don't wish to reignite our current antagonistic dispute, but your willingness to blindly accept a study absurdly claiming that native-born Hispanics have 600% higher crime rates than immigrant ones without applying a little common sense is troubling. If that were true, the rapidly growing fraction of the native-born Hispanic population over the last decade or two would obviously have resulted in skyrocketing Hispanic crime rates, but it didn't. And if you look at my comments, the claim would obviously be contradicted by the SF data that was the original subject of the post.

    Obviously, the report of 7x higher crime rates should have been critically examined than casually swallowed. Similarly, I'm very skeptical of being able to accurately estimate Russian losses by aggregating Ukrainian propaganda-Tweets given the enormous effort the Ukrainians and their Neocon backers have invested in the propaganda side of their war.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Twinkie

    However, I think my recollection was generally correct.

    It was not. My correspondence with you was entirely substantive in nature (not what I would call “fierce” argumentation – at one point, I even told you I’d review the data and reconsider) while you fell into your bad habit of getting personal, so I pointed out thusly:

    You don’t have to go into typecasting and insult mode again, however.

    Also, regarding the foreign-born Hispanic vs. American-born Hispanic issue, I asked the following and you never responded:

    One more thought. If the Hispanic self-identification as American citizens due to fear of deportation were the main explanatory variable, why is it that the “curse of assimilate” rates differed so significantly by ethno-racial groups?

    Are Asian illegals less afraid of deportation? Or are Asian illegals for some reason more honest than Hispanic ones?

    How do you account for the fact that European and Asian numbers had a very small increase from foreign-born to native-born numbers unlike the Mexican numbers?

    Oh, my days, this again:

    Similarly, I’m very skeptical of being able to accurately estimate Russian losses by aggregating Ukrainian propaganda-Tweets given the enormous effort the Ukrainians and their Neocon backers have invested in the propaganda side of their war.

    You know that site also aggregates Ukrainian equipment losses, right? https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-ukrainian.html

    Again, you put too much stock in “motives,” and not enough on material evidence. What did I say in favor of your arguments in the American meritocracy and Hispanic crime articles? I said that your methodology and datasets are transparent and can be debated and validated/falsifiable, yes? In contrast to most of those who object to your argumentation based on their “feelz”?

    Now, my methodology and datasets are transparent. Where are yours or those of the analysts whose motives you trust so much?

    Moreover, since I made my assessment six months ago, whose view seems to have been borne out by the actual events on the ground subsequently? I assessed that the Russians suffered substantial losses and their offensive capability was severely degraded. The analysts on whom you rely so much downplayed the Russian losses and expected the Russians to win imminently (Ritter, for example, went so far as to suggest that the blitz on Kiev was a “feint” to draw Ukrainian forces from the east and expected the Russians do overwhelm the Ukrainians in the east in brilliant “maneuver warfare”).

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    @Twinkie

    Why imprisoned Hispanics falsely claim to be native-born at apparently much higher rates than Asians is immaterial, and might be due to a wide variety of different social factors. My point is that even a moment's consideration would have revealed the absurdity of the notion that native-born Hispanics have crime rates 800% as high as immigrant ones, and I'd cited the debunking analysis in my original article.

    I didn't even mention a couple of even more egregious examples in that thread. Your statistics indicated that American-born Vietnamese had astonishingly high crime rates, half that of blacks, and you defended that position, pointing to "Vietnamese gangs." Do you still believe that?

    Then you cited international statistics that the homicide rate in Taiwan was 300% as high as that in China, and claimed that this was due to the "large indigenous population that is not genetically northeast Asian" rather than obvious social/cultural/political differences. According to all the sources I know, virtually the entire Taiwanese population is Han Chinese, and a couple of Taiwanese friends confirmed this. Do you still seriously believe that the overwhelming majority of Taiwanese homicides are committed by the tiny sliver of the population that is indigenous or part-indigenous? Here's what I wrote at the time:


    The problem with “racialist” ideologues is that they seem to believe that *everything* is race, perhaps due to an over-reaction to our absurd reigning dogma that *nothing* is race. So if the Han Chinese living in Taiwan seem to have 3x the murder rates of the Han Chinese living in China, it couldn’t be due to various complex differences in social structure, economics, or cultural factors—they can’t possibly be Han Chinese. Having a background in the hard sciences, I tend to look at racial matters on an empirical case-by-case basis.
     

    Replies: @Twinkie

  253. @Ron Unz
    @Twinkie


    You remember incorrectly, Mr. Unz. I was skeptical about the extent of your argument (that Hispanic crime rate was comparable to the white rate – I thought it in-between white and black rates) and did not “fiercely argue against it.”...I also still think that you neglect to address seriously 1) the apparent “downward assimilation” between foreign-born and native-born populations in crime, which appears to be pronounced among Hispanics
     
    Well, the dispute was more than seven years ago, so I had to refresh my memory by reexamining the thread:

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/black-students-in-san-francisco-29x-as-likely-as-whites-to-be-arrested/

    However, I think my recollection was generally correct. Your main argument was:

    The conclusion of the study was that, among Mexicans, for example, the arrest rate of foreign-born Mexicans was slightly LOWER than that of American-born whites. However, among American-born Mexicans, their arrest rate was SEVEN TIMES that of the foreign-born Mexicans and thus several times higher than that of American-born whites.
     
    So I pointed out that 600% difference in crime rates was totally ridiculous, contradicted by all the empirical evidence, and obviously due to very poorly designed study, which had already been debunked by a paper I cited in my article. Our resulting exchanges went on for dozens of comments, and here are several of my most relevant ones:

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/black-students-in-san-francisco-29x-as-likely-as-whites-to-be-arrested/#comment-877929

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/black-students-in-san-francisco-29x-as-likely-as-whites-to-be-arrested/#comment-885094

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/black-students-in-san-francisco-29x-as-likely-as-whites-to-be-arrested/#comment-881243

    I don't wish to reignite our current antagonistic dispute, but your willingness to blindly accept a study absurdly claiming that native-born Hispanics have 600% higher crime rates than immigrant ones without applying a little common sense is troubling. If that were true, the rapidly growing fraction of the native-born Hispanic population over the last decade or two would obviously have resulted in skyrocketing Hispanic crime rates, but it didn't. And if you look at my comments, the claim would obviously be contradicted by the SF data that was the original subject of the post.

    Obviously, the report of 7x higher crime rates should have been critically examined than casually swallowed. Similarly, I'm very skeptical of being able to accurately estimate Russian losses by aggregating Ukrainian propaganda-Tweets given the enormous effort the Ukrainians and their Neocon backers have invested in the propaganda side of their war.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Twinkie

    Well, the dispute was more than seven years ago

    By the way, it’s insane that I’ve spent this much time on your site for seven+ years! With this much attention and effort on my part on your webzine, you should have given me a blog! 😉

    “Asian Privilege Blog – brought to you by Twinkie, the Internet’s Toughest Asian!”
    All things Asian and fighting, both interpersonal and international

    My wife is generally very happy with me as a husband, but she does often say, “Stop wasting time arguing with morons on the internet!” (to be clear, by “morons,” she means the other commenters here – she doesn’t know who you are, but I suspect she’d think you are a bit crazy, not stupid, if she were directly exposed to your writings).

  254. @Twinkie
    @Ron Unz


    However, I think my recollection was generally correct.
     
    It was not. My correspondence with you was entirely substantive in nature (not what I would call "fierce" argumentation - at one point, I even told you I'd review the data and reconsider) while you fell into your bad habit of getting personal, so I pointed out thusly:

    You don’t have to go into typecasting and insult mode again, however.
     
    Also, regarding the foreign-born Hispanic vs. American-born Hispanic issue, I asked the following and you never responded:

    One more thought. If the Hispanic self-identification as American citizens due to fear of deportation were the main explanatory variable, why is it that the “curse of assimilate” rates differed so significantly by ethno-racial groups?

    Are Asian illegals less afraid of deportation? Or are Asian illegals for some reason more honest than Hispanic ones?

    How do you account for the fact that European and Asian numbers had a very small increase from foreign-born to native-born numbers unlike the Mexican numbers?
     

    Oh, my days, this again:

    Similarly, I’m very skeptical of being able to accurately estimate Russian losses by aggregating Ukrainian propaganda-Tweets given the enormous effort the Ukrainians and their Neocon backers have invested in the propaganda side of their war.
     
    You know that site also aggregates Ukrainian equipment losses, right? https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-ukrainian.html

    Again, you put too much stock in "motives," and not enough on material evidence. What did I say in favor of your arguments in the American meritocracy and Hispanic crime articles? I said that your methodology and datasets are transparent and can be debated and validated/falsifiable, yes? In contrast to most of those who object to your argumentation based on their "feelz"?

    Now, my methodology and datasets are transparent. Where are yours or those of the analysts whose motives you trust so much?

    Moreover, since I made my assessment six months ago, whose view seems to have been borne out by the actual events on the ground subsequently? I assessed that the Russians suffered substantial losses and their offensive capability was severely degraded. The analysts on whom you rely so much downplayed the Russian losses and expected the Russians to win imminently (Ritter, for example, went so far as to suggest that the blitz on Kiev was a "feint" to draw Ukrainian forces from the east and expected the Russians do overwhelm the Ukrainians in the east in brilliant "maneuver warfare").

    Replies: @Ron Unz

    Why imprisoned Hispanics falsely claim to be native-born at apparently much higher rates than Asians is immaterial, and might be due to a wide variety of different social factors. My point is that even a moment’s consideration would have revealed the absurdity of the notion that native-born Hispanics have crime rates 800% as high as immigrant ones, and I’d cited the debunking analysis in my original article.

    I didn’t even mention a couple of even more egregious examples in that thread. Your statistics indicated that American-born Vietnamese had astonishingly high crime rates, half that of blacks, and you defended that position, pointing to “Vietnamese gangs.” Do you still believe that?

    Then you cited international statistics that the homicide rate in Taiwan was 300% as high as that in China, and claimed that this was due to the “large indigenous population that is not genetically northeast Asian” rather than obvious social/cultural/political differences. According to all the sources I know, virtually the entire Taiwanese population is Han Chinese, and a couple of Taiwanese friends confirmed this. Do you still seriously believe that the overwhelming majority of Taiwanese homicides are committed by the tiny sliver of the population that is indigenous or part-indigenous? Here’s what I wrote at the time:

    The problem with “racialist” ideologues is that they seem to believe that *everything* is race, perhaps due to an over-reaction to our absurd reigning dogma that *nothing* is race. So if the Han Chinese living in Taiwan seem to have 3x the murder rates of the Han Chinese living in China, it couldn’t be due to various complex differences in social structure, economics, or cultural factors—they can’t possibly be Han Chinese. Having a background in the hard sciences, I tend to look at racial matters on an empirical case-by-case basis.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Ron Unz


    Why imprisoned Hispanics falsely claim to be native-born at apparently much higher rates than Asians is immaterial, and might be due to a wide variety of different social factors.
     
    It certainly is VERY material since that is how you blithely sweep aside the apparent statistics that show the following "assimilation curse":

    +480% Salvadoran/Guatemalan
    +740% Mexican

    +260% Chinese/Taiwanese
    +260% Koreans
     

    You claimed that the reason the American-born Mexican crime number is so elevated compared to foreign-born Mexican number is because the foreign-born Mexican criminals lie so as not to be deported. If so, I asked, wouldn't other foreign-born ethnic criminals do the same? Yet the "assimilation curse" multiple is considerably lower with East Asians. Now you say this "might be due to a wide variety of different social factors." Such as what? And by what mechanism?

    Your statistics indicated that American-born Vietnamese had astonishingly high crime rates, half that of blacks, and you defended that position, pointing to “Vietnamese gangs.” Do you still believe that?
     
    This was what I wrote:

    The three countries with the largest population in northeast Asia have the following murder rates per 100,000:

    Japan 0.3
    South Korea 0.9
    China 1.0

    Meanwhile, in Indochina:

    Vietnam 3.3
    Laos 5.9
    Cambodia 6.5

    And let’s look at some African countries:

    Kenya 6.4
    Somalia 8.0
    CAR 11.8
    Congo 12.5

    Judging from these numbers from their native environments, is it that hard to believe that Indochinese are roughly half as criminally-inclined as sub-Saharan Africans? You seem to find that possibility absurd, but real world numbers say that it IS conceivable.
     

    And you keep alleging that I am a "racialist," but this is what I wrote:

    Sure. But I am not one of them. As I mentioned in numerous other posts, I tend to think that being a hereditarian (as opposed to environmentarian) is attributing heredity and environment as causations rather than environment alone. Both genes and environment matter and interact with one another to produce culture, which in turn affect both genes and environment.
     
    As for Taiwan, you again, mischaracterize what I wrote. This is what I wrote about Taiwan:

    I merely pointed out that Taiwan had a substantial non-northeast Asian genetic input and so was an outlier compared to Japan, Korea, and China, and could not be considered a strictly “northeast” Asian country. That is all. While I think a different genetic makeup plays a role (about how much, who knows?), of course I acknowledge that there is a whole host of other factors that lead to the elevated murder rate in Taiwan (for starters, it is a major drug transshipment point between Southeast Asia and East Asia and beyond).
     
    As for the size of the indigenous in Taiwan, this is what I wrote:

    You might perhaps know that, although being “Han Chinese” is claimed as a biologically distinct, discrete ethnicity, in reality it is a civilizational construct. For example, until quite recently, people who are mostly or partially Manchu claimed to be Han’s because of various historical and social reasons.

    Likewise, given the intense prejudice (and occasional violence) against the aboriginal population in Taiwan, people with such descent has had every reason to identify themselves as Han. “Claiming descent” and actually being mostly Han can be two very different things.

    I would bet a good lunch that on Taiwan people with significant or some aboriginal ancestry far exceed 2-5% reported by the Taiwanese government statistics, much the same way I strongly distrust the Japanese statistics of only 1-2% ethnic Koreans in Japan.

    In any case, this is just a side distraction about the smallest country in northeast Asia.
     

    You, sir, have an extremely bad - bordering on intellectually dishonest - habit of distorting what someone else wrote in order to paint him as "unreliable" all the while ignoring the substance of his arguments. This is now, what, third or fourth time you are avoiding answering this question:

    Moreover, since I made my assessment six months ago, whose view seems to have been borne out by the actual events on the ground subsequently? I assessed that the Russians suffered substantial losses and their offensive capability was severely degraded. The analysts on whom you rely so much downplayed the Russian losses and expected the Russians to win imminently (Ritter, for example, went so far as to suggest that the blitz on Kiev was a “feint” to draw Ukrainian forces from the east and expected the Russians do overwhelm the Ukrainians in the east in brilliant “maneuver warfare”).
     
    Again, what has happened on the ground in the past six months? Does it seem that Twinkie was right to argue that the Russians seemed to have suffered heavy casualties and experienced degraded offensive capability or were your experts right that the attack on Kiev was merely a feint and that the Russians were soon going to defeat the Ukrainians in the eastern part of the country?

    Replies: @Ron Unz

  255. @Ron Unz
    @Twinkie

    Why imprisoned Hispanics falsely claim to be native-born at apparently much higher rates than Asians is immaterial, and might be due to a wide variety of different social factors. My point is that even a moment's consideration would have revealed the absurdity of the notion that native-born Hispanics have crime rates 800% as high as immigrant ones, and I'd cited the debunking analysis in my original article.

    I didn't even mention a couple of even more egregious examples in that thread. Your statistics indicated that American-born Vietnamese had astonishingly high crime rates, half that of blacks, and you defended that position, pointing to "Vietnamese gangs." Do you still believe that?

    Then you cited international statistics that the homicide rate in Taiwan was 300% as high as that in China, and claimed that this was due to the "large indigenous population that is not genetically northeast Asian" rather than obvious social/cultural/political differences. According to all the sources I know, virtually the entire Taiwanese population is Han Chinese, and a couple of Taiwanese friends confirmed this. Do you still seriously believe that the overwhelming majority of Taiwanese homicides are committed by the tiny sliver of the population that is indigenous or part-indigenous? Here's what I wrote at the time:


    The problem with “racialist” ideologues is that they seem to believe that *everything* is race, perhaps due to an over-reaction to our absurd reigning dogma that *nothing* is race. So if the Han Chinese living in Taiwan seem to have 3x the murder rates of the Han Chinese living in China, it couldn’t be due to various complex differences in social structure, economics, or cultural factors—they can’t possibly be Han Chinese. Having a background in the hard sciences, I tend to look at racial matters on an empirical case-by-case basis.
     

    Replies: @Twinkie

    Why imprisoned Hispanics falsely claim to be native-born at apparently much higher rates than Asians is immaterial, and might be due to a wide variety of different social factors.

    It certainly is VERY material since that is how you blithely sweep aside the apparent statistics that show the following “assimilation curse”:

    +480% Salvadoran/Guatemalan
    +740% Mexican

    +260% Chinese/Taiwanese
    +260% Koreans

    You claimed that the reason the American-born Mexican crime number is so elevated compared to foreign-born Mexican number is because the foreign-born Mexican criminals lie so as not to be deported. If so, I asked, wouldn’t other foreign-born ethnic criminals do the same? Yet the “assimilation curse” multiple is considerably lower with East Asians. Now you say this “might be due to a wide variety of different social factors.” Such as what? And by what mechanism?

    Your statistics indicated that American-born Vietnamese had astonishingly high crime rates, half that of blacks, and you defended that position, pointing to “Vietnamese gangs.” Do you still believe that?

    This was what I wrote:

    The three countries with the largest population in northeast Asia have the following murder rates per 100,000:

    Japan 0.3
    South Korea 0.9
    China 1.0

    Meanwhile, in Indochina:

    Vietnam 3.3
    Laos 5.9
    Cambodia 6.5

    And let’s look at some African countries:

    Kenya 6.4
    Somalia 8.0
    CAR 11.8
    Congo 12.5

    Judging from these numbers from their native environments, is it that hard to believe that Indochinese are roughly half as criminally-inclined as sub-Saharan Africans? You seem to find that possibility absurd, but real world numbers say that it IS conceivable.

    And you keep alleging that I am a “racialist,” but this is what I wrote:

    Sure. But I am not one of them. As I mentioned in numerous other posts, I tend to think that being a hereditarian (as opposed to environmentarian) is attributing heredity and environment as causations rather than environment alone. Both genes and environment matter and interact with one another to produce culture, which in turn affect both genes and environment.

    As for Taiwan, you again, mischaracterize what I wrote. This is what I wrote about Taiwan:

    I merely pointed out that Taiwan had a substantial non-northeast Asian genetic input and so was an outlier compared to Japan, Korea, and China, and could not be considered a strictly “northeast” Asian country. That is all. While I think a different genetic makeup plays a role (about how much, who knows?), of course I acknowledge that there is a whole host of other factors that lead to the elevated murder rate in Taiwan (for starters, it is a major drug transshipment point between Southeast Asia and East Asia and beyond).

    As for the size of the indigenous in Taiwan, this is what I wrote:

    You might perhaps know that, although being “Han Chinese” is claimed as a biologically distinct, discrete ethnicity, in reality it is a civilizational construct. For example, until quite recently, people who are mostly or partially Manchu claimed to be Han’s because of various historical and social reasons.

    Likewise, given the intense prejudice (and occasional violence) against the aboriginal population in Taiwan, people with such descent has had every reason to identify themselves as Han. “Claiming descent” and actually being mostly Han can be two very different things.

    I would bet a good lunch that on Taiwan people with significant or some aboriginal ancestry far exceed 2-5% reported by the Taiwanese government statistics, much the same way I strongly distrust the Japanese statistics of only 1-2% ethnic Koreans in Japan.

    In any case, this is just a side distraction about the smallest country in northeast Asia.

    You, sir, have an extremely bad – bordering on intellectually dishonest – habit of distorting what someone else wrote in order to paint him as “unreliable” all the while ignoring the substance of his arguments. This is now, what, third or fourth time you are avoiding answering this question:

    Moreover, since I made my assessment six months ago, whose view seems to have been borne out by the actual events on the ground subsequently? I assessed that the Russians suffered substantial losses and their offensive capability was severely degraded. The analysts on whom you rely so much downplayed the Russian losses and expected the Russians to win imminently (Ritter, for example, went so far as to suggest that the blitz on Kiev was a “feint” to draw Ukrainian forces from the east and expected the Russians do overwhelm the Ukrainians in the east in brilliant “maneuver warfare”).

    Again, what has happened on the ground in the past six months? Does it seem that Twinkie was right to argue that the Russians seemed to have suffered heavy casualties and experienced degraded offensive capability or were your experts right that the attack on Kiev was merely a feint and that the Russians were soon going to defeat the Ukrainians in the eastern part of the country?

    • Thanks: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    @Twinkie


    And let’s look at some African countries:

    Kenya 6.4
    Somalia 8.0
    CAR 11.8
    Congo 12.5
     
    I'm awfully, awfully skeptical of homicide statistics in many sub-Saharan African countries. For example, Somalia scarcely had a functioning government in recent decades. Do you really think they carefully aggregate homicide statistics? If you check, you'll discover that South Africa is the only country in that region with large numbers of Covid deaths. The anti-vaxxers claim that proves Covid is a hoax, while I say it's because few of the other countries have functioning public health systems that keep track of such things.

    To repeat myself: Do you still believe that American-born Vietnamese have half the crime rates of American blacks? That would make them roughly 5x as likely to commit crimes as American whites. Are Little Saigons that dangerous?

    With regard to Taiwan, you suggested that indigenous non-Han ancestry probably explained the 200% higher homicide rates compared to China. Suppose (an implausibly high) 20% of Taiwanese are substantially non-Han. For your hypothesis to work, that sub-population would have to have roughly 11x the homicide rates of the Han majority. If so, I think we would have heard about that and the Han government would very harshly cracked down decades ago.

    Again, what has happened on the ground in the past six months? Does it seem that Twinkie was right to argue that the Russians seemed to have suffered heavy casualties and experienced degraded offensive capability or were your experts right that the attack on Kiev was merely a feint and that the Russians were soon going to defeat the Ukrainians in the eastern part of the country?
     
    If you check our exchange, I never took a position on any of those issues, other than what I regarded as your implausibly high casualty estimates. The Russian force was heavily outnumbered from the very beginning, so high casualties are hardly necessary to explain the successful Ukrainian counter-attack. I honestly don't know how the course of battle will go, and if you were to check my comments over the last six months, you'd find that I'd been minimally engaged. Like I originally said, I suspect you've been following the details of the war 20x more closely than I have. But I still don't regard aggregating and analyzing Ukrainian propaganda-Tweets as a valid method of determining casualties.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Twinkie, @Twinkie

  256. @Twinkie
    @Ron Unz


    Why imprisoned Hispanics falsely claim to be native-born at apparently much higher rates than Asians is immaterial, and might be due to a wide variety of different social factors.
     
    It certainly is VERY material since that is how you blithely sweep aside the apparent statistics that show the following "assimilation curse":

    +480% Salvadoran/Guatemalan
    +740% Mexican

    +260% Chinese/Taiwanese
    +260% Koreans
     

    You claimed that the reason the American-born Mexican crime number is so elevated compared to foreign-born Mexican number is because the foreign-born Mexican criminals lie so as not to be deported. If so, I asked, wouldn't other foreign-born ethnic criminals do the same? Yet the "assimilation curse" multiple is considerably lower with East Asians. Now you say this "might be due to a wide variety of different social factors." Such as what? And by what mechanism?

    Your statistics indicated that American-born Vietnamese had astonishingly high crime rates, half that of blacks, and you defended that position, pointing to “Vietnamese gangs.” Do you still believe that?
     
    This was what I wrote:

    The three countries with the largest population in northeast Asia have the following murder rates per 100,000:

    Japan 0.3
    South Korea 0.9
    China 1.0

    Meanwhile, in Indochina:

    Vietnam 3.3
    Laos 5.9
    Cambodia 6.5

    And let’s look at some African countries:

    Kenya 6.4
    Somalia 8.0
    CAR 11.8
    Congo 12.5

    Judging from these numbers from their native environments, is it that hard to believe that Indochinese are roughly half as criminally-inclined as sub-Saharan Africans? You seem to find that possibility absurd, but real world numbers say that it IS conceivable.
     

    And you keep alleging that I am a "racialist," but this is what I wrote:

    Sure. But I am not one of them. As I mentioned in numerous other posts, I tend to think that being a hereditarian (as opposed to environmentarian) is attributing heredity and environment as causations rather than environment alone. Both genes and environment matter and interact with one another to produce culture, which in turn affect both genes and environment.
     
    As for Taiwan, you again, mischaracterize what I wrote. This is what I wrote about Taiwan:

    I merely pointed out that Taiwan had a substantial non-northeast Asian genetic input and so was an outlier compared to Japan, Korea, and China, and could not be considered a strictly “northeast” Asian country. That is all. While I think a different genetic makeup plays a role (about how much, who knows?), of course I acknowledge that there is a whole host of other factors that lead to the elevated murder rate in Taiwan (for starters, it is a major drug transshipment point between Southeast Asia and East Asia and beyond).
     
    As for the size of the indigenous in Taiwan, this is what I wrote:

    You might perhaps know that, although being “Han Chinese” is claimed as a biologically distinct, discrete ethnicity, in reality it is a civilizational construct. For example, until quite recently, people who are mostly or partially Manchu claimed to be Han’s because of various historical and social reasons.

    Likewise, given the intense prejudice (and occasional violence) against the aboriginal population in Taiwan, people with such descent has had every reason to identify themselves as Han. “Claiming descent” and actually being mostly Han can be two very different things.

    I would bet a good lunch that on Taiwan people with significant or some aboriginal ancestry far exceed 2-5% reported by the Taiwanese government statistics, much the same way I strongly distrust the Japanese statistics of only 1-2% ethnic Koreans in Japan.

    In any case, this is just a side distraction about the smallest country in northeast Asia.
     

    You, sir, have an extremely bad - bordering on intellectually dishonest - habit of distorting what someone else wrote in order to paint him as "unreliable" all the while ignoring the substance of his arguments. This is now, what, third or fourth time you are avoiding answering this question:

    Moreover, since I made my assessment six months ago, whose view seems to have been borne out by the actual events on the ground subsequently? I assessed that the Russians suffered substantial losses and their offensive capability was severely degraded. The analysts on whom you rely so much downplayed the Russian losses and expected the Russians to win imminently (Ritter, for example, went so far as to suggest that the blitz on Kiev was a “feint” to draw Ukrainian forces from the east and expected the Russians do overwhelm the Ukrainians in the east in brilliant “maneuver warfare”).
     
    Again, what has happened on the ground in the past six months? Does it seem that Twinkie was right to argue that the Russians seemed to have suffered heavy casualties and experienced degraded offensive capability or were your experts right that the attack on Kiev was merely a feint and that the Russians were soon going to defeat the Ukrainians in the eastern part of the country?

    Replies: @Ron Unz

    And let’s look at some African countries:

    Kenya 6.4
    Somalia 8.0
    CAR 11.8
    Congo 12.5

    I’m awfully, awfully skeptical of homicide statistics in many sub-Saharan African countries. For example, Somalia scarcely had a functioning government in recent decades. Do you really think they carefully aggregate homicide statistics? If you check, you’ll discover that South Africa is the only country in that region with large numbers of Covid deaths. The anti-vaxxers claim that proves Covid is a hoax, while I say it’s because few of the other countries have functioning public health systems that keep track of such things.

    To repeat myself: Do you still believe that American-born Vietnamese have half the crime rates of American blacks? That would make them roughly 5x as likely to commit crimes as American whites. Are Little Saigons that dangerous?

    With regard to Taiwan, you suggested that indigenous non-Han ancestry probably explained the 200% higher homicide rates compared to China. Suppose (an implausibly high) 20% of Taiwanese are substantially non-Han. For your hypothesis to work, that sub-population would have to have roughly 11x the homicide rates of the Han majority. If so, I think we would have heard about that and the Han government would very harshly cracked down decades ago.

    Again, what has happened on the ground in the past six months? Does it seem that Twinkie was right to argue that the Russians seemed to have suffered heavy casualties and experienced degraded offensive capability or were your experts right that the attack on Kiev was merely a feint and that the Russians were soon going to defeat the Ukrainians in the eastern part of the country?

    If you check our exchange, I never took a position on any of those issues, other than what I regarded as your implausibly high casualty estimates. The Russian force was heavily outnumbered from the very beginning, so high casualties are hardly necessary to explain the successful Ukrainian counter-attack. I honestly don’t know how the course of battle will go, and if you were to check my comments over the last six months, you’d find that I’d been minimally engaged. Like I originally said, I suspect you’ve been following the details of the war 20x more closely than I have. But I still don’t regard aggregating and analyzing Ukrainian propaganda-Tweets as a valid method of determining casualties.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Ron Unz


    I’m awfully, awfully skeptical of homicide statistics in many sub-Saharan African countries.
     
    And you should be. But the homicide statistics in Southeast Asia and especially in East Asia are much more reliable.

    Japan 0.3
    South Korea 0.9
    China 1.0

    Meanwhile, in Indochina:

    Vietnam 3.3
    Laos 5.9
    Cambodia 6.5
     

    Do you disagree that the Indochinese are much more homicidal on average than the Chinese, Japanese, and the South Koreans in their home countries? And where is homicide much more likely to be covered up/unreported, Japan or Cambodia?

    Do you still believe that American-born Vietnamese have half the crime rates of American blacks? That would make them roughly 5x as likely to commit crimes as American whites. Are Little Saigons that dangerous?
     
    I don't know about half or 5x or some such, but I would submit that it is possible that Vietnamese have higher crime rate than whites depending on context. In the 1980's, there was a bloody gang war in Chinatown, in which the more established Chinese criminal groups fought against rising gangs that were supported by the Vietnamese (who hitherto acted as contract killers for the Chinese). These Vietnamese gangs, including BTK ("Born to Kill"), were notorious for their exceptional brutality: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Born_to_Kill_(gang)

    During the height of the Chinese-Vietnamese gang war, I'd consider it possible, perhaps even plausible, that the homicide rate of the Vietnamese was higher than that of whites in NYC. Mind you, I don't know that for a fact (I'd have to check the stats), but possible and perhaps plausible. Intense gang activity is highly correlated with elevated violent and vice crimes.


    With regard to Taiwan, you suggested that indigenous non-Han ancestry probably explained the 200% higher homicide rates compared to China
     
    Do you just ignore when your interlocutor whom you wish to paint as unreliable just doesn't fall into your strawman constructs? This is tiresome, but I repeat again what I wrote 7 years ago apparently:

    I merely pointed out that Taiwan had a substantial non-northeast Asian genetic input and so was an outlier compared to Japan, Korea, and China, and could not be considered a strictly “northeast” Asian country. That is all. While I think a different genetic makeup plays a role (about how much, who knows?), of course I acknowledge that there is a whole host of other factors that lead to the elevated murder rate in Taiwan (for starters, it is a major drug transshipment point between Southeast Asia and East Asia and beyond).
     
    As for this claim you keep repeating:

    The Russian force was heavily outnumbered from the very beginning
     
    It was not. The Russian army reputedly committed about 60 out of the 168 battalion tactical groups (BTGs) available in the opening rounds of the Ukrainian war. A BTG is the basic fighting maneuver group of the Russian army that is capable of conducting independent operations. That is roughly 48,000 front line "trigger pullers." And, of course, these were backed by the immensely larger combat support and support services of the Russian armed forces (not to forget air and air elements). In material terms (tanks, artillery, etc.), Russians massively outnumber the Ukrainians. In total, the Russians seemed to have deployed about 200,000 personnel to "the special military operation."

    Despite what you may have gleaned from the paper strength of the Ukrainian military prior to the commencement of the war, the actual deployed strength of the Ukrainian forces was about 40,000 as of late 2021. Add the fact that the Russians had the initiative as invaders and could pick and choose where to fight (i.e. concentrate forces against Ukrainian weak points), the initial advantage was overwhelmingly on the side of the Russians. The Russians turned out to be a lot less skillful than observers realized, but they aren't morons. They wouldn't go to war "heavily outnumbered."


    so high casualties are hardly necessary to explain the successful Ukrainian counter-attack.
     
    It's not because of supposed Ukrainian numerical superiority. It's because of two reasons: 1) the Russian army turned out to be surprisingly ill-trained and poor at conducting offensive operations and bled itself silly and, on the other side of the ledger, the Ukrainians turned out to be much more skillful and determined (you can see footages of small groups of Ukrainian infantry - hunter-killer teams - ambushing whole Russian mechanized columns on YouTube - that takes an enormous amount of courage and skill to achieve). The performances of the Ukrainian military personnel greatly exceeded the expectations of just about everyone - including the governments of the West.

    And 2) once the Western governments realized that Kiev wasn't going to fall and that the Russian occupation wasn't a fait accompli they'd have to accept (a la Crimea), they began to supply the Ukrainians with advanced equipment (the most celebrated of which were Javelin missiles, HIMAR arty/rocket systems, etc.) that has enabled the Ukrainians to overcome the material inferiority they faced.

    It also helped that, contrary to stupid claims of pro-Russian analysts, it was the Ukrainians who feinted well by threatening the south (the Kherson front) and then attacking to the east (the Kharkiv front), which seems to have led to the collapse of the Russian 1st Guard Tank Army (which is - or was - the premier Russian mechanized force). Now, despite surrounding significant Russian fighting units in their counter-offensive, the Ukrainians were not able to completely take advantage of their successes precisely because, they, too, have manpower issues - they weren't able to completely "shut the trap" and capture the pocketed Russian forces, which allowed many of the latter to retreat to safety.


    if you were to check my comments over the last six months, you’d find that I’d been minimally engaged.
     
    How convenient for you that you missed the dramatic reversal of the war of the past six months.

    Like I originally said, I suspect you’ve been following the details of the war 20x more closely than I have.
     
    "20x" is just out of the thin air. The advantage I have over you is that I have greater knowledge on the matter and can do my own assessments instead of relying on others based on "feelz." I don't just look up numbers on the internet (and think that the Bundeswehr, the German armed forces, is made up of only 60,000 or so personnel, which doesn't pass the smell test to anyone with a minimal knowledge of European armed forces - that just shows 1) how quick to jump on the first thing you see that you think validates your views, i.e. "See, Ukrainians have a bigger military than Germany!" and 2) how easy it is to fool you about military mattters).

    But I still don’t regard aggregating and analyzing Ukrainian propaganda-Tweets as a valid method of determining casualties.
     
    For the tenth time, it's a lot more valid (because there is photographic evidence which you can falsify/debate/validate) than merely aping the Russian government claims.

    In war, there is an enormous amount of "fog." The choice is never about finding accurate information vs. inaccurate information, on which to base actions. It's almost always about relying on more or less accurate information, which is subject to validation/falsification. Anyone who gives you assessments that are based on "feelz" or some vague attributed motivations and doesn't disclose his exact methodology and datasets are selling things.

    Must I note again that the Oryx site also aggregates Ukrainian equipment losses?

    By the way, I would assess the Ukrainian personnel losses at a much higher multiple of their equipment losses than the Russians in this war or the Americans in Iraq - prior to this war, the Ukrainian army was a lot less "capital-intensive" and was infantry-based, so the same multiple does not apply. Note also that I believe the correlations of forces still favor the Russians in the long run, with all the usual caveats, e.g. the casualty levels, the pace of flow of equipment to the Ukrainian side from the West, the level of Russian mobilization, the rate of Russian equipment production and replacement as well as intangible but important variables such as the political support level in respective countries, the training levels and morale/cohesion of personnel, etc.

    All these arguments you put up are rhetorical arguments meant to show that you weren't "wrong" or even responsible for being wrong (hence the "I haven't been paying attention") - they are not arguments intended to get at the objective truth.

    Replies: @Ron Unz

    , @Twinkie
    @Ron Unz

    By the way, let me reiterate about summarizing my initial response to your Hispanic crime thesis:


    You remember incorrectly, Mr. Unz. I was skeptical about the extent of your argument (that Hispanic crime rate was comparable to the white rate – I thought it in-between white and black rates) and did not “fiercely argue against it.” I merely “poked some holes” in it and suggested some counter-arguments (meanwhile, there were commenters who were apoplectic and indeed “fiercely argued against it). [boldfaces for emphasis.]
     
    And, of course, I also stated more than once (indeed multiple times over the years) that I largely accept your thesis that age- and sex-norming closes much of the apparent gap between white and Hispanic crime rates.

    Replies: @Ron Unz

    , @Twinkie
    @Ron Unz

    By the way, you never answered this:


    You claimed that the reason the American-born Mexican crime number is so elevated compared to foreign-born Mexican number is because the foreign-born Mexican criminals lie so as not to be deported. If so, I asked, wouldn’t other foreign-born ethnic criminals do the same? Yet the “assimilation curse” multiple is considerably lower with East Asians. Now you say this “might be due to a wide variety of different social factors.” Such as what? And by what mechanism?
     

    Replies: @Ron Unz

  257. @Ron Unz
    @Twinkie


    And let’s look at some African countries:

    Kenya 6.4
    Somalia 8.0
    CAR 11.8
    Congo 12.5
     
    I'm awfully, awfully skeptical of homicide statistics in many sub-Saharan African countries. For example, Somalia scarcely had a functioning government in recent decades. Do you really think they carefully aggregate homicide statistics? If you check, you'll discover that South Africa is the only country in that region with large numbers of Covid deaths. The anti-vaxxers claim that proves Covid is a hoax, while I say it's because few of the other countries have functioning public health systems that keep track of such things.

    To repeat myself: Do you still believe that American-born Vietnamese have half the crime rates of American blacks? That would make them roughly 5x as likely to commit crimes as American whites. Are Little Saigons that dangerous?

    With regard to Taiwan, you suggested that indigenous non-Han ancestry probably explained the 200% higher homicide rates compared to China. Suppose (an implausibly high) 20% of Taiwanese are substantially non-Han. For your hypothesis to work, that sub-population would have to have roughly 11x the homicide rates of the Han majority. If so, I think we would have heard about that and the Han government would very harshly cracked down decades ago.

    Again, what has happened on the ground in the past six months? Does it seem that Twinkie was right to argue that the Russians seemed to have suffered heavy casualties and experienced degraded offensive capability or were your experts right that the attack on Kiev was merely a feint and that the Russians were soon going to defeat the Ukrainians in the eastern part of the country?
     
    If you check our exchange, I never took a position on any of those issues, other than what I regarded as your implausibly high casualty estimates. The Russian force was heavily outnumbered from the very beginning, so high casualties are hardly necessary to explain the successful Ukrainian counter-attack. I honestly don't know how the course of battle will go, and if you were to check my comments over the last six months, you'd find that I'd been minimally engaged. Like I originally said, I suspect you've been following the details of the war 20x more closely than I have. But I still don't regard aggregating and analyzing Ukrainian propaganda-Tweets as a valid method of determining casualties.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Twinkie, @Twinkie

    I’m awfully, awfully skeptical of homicide statistics in many sub-Saharan African countries.

    And you should be. But the homicide statistics in Southeast Asia and especially in East Asia are much more reliable.

    Japan 0.3
    South Korea 0.9
    China 1.0

    Meanwhile, in Indochina:

    Vietnam 3.3
    Laos 5.9
    Cambodia 6.5

    Do you disagree that the Indochinese are much more homicidal on average than the Chinese, Japanese, and the South Koreans in their home countries? And where is homicide much more likely to be covered up/unreported, Japan or Cambodia?

    Do you still believe that American-born Vietnamese have half the crime rates of American blacks? That would make them roughly 5x as likely to commit crimes as American whites. Are Little Saigons that dangerous?

    I don’t know about half or 5x or some such, but I would submit that it is possible that Vietnamese have higher crime rate than whites depending on context. In the 1980’s, there was a bloody gang war in Chinatown, in which the more established Chinese criminal groups fought against rising gangs that were supported by the Vietnamese (who hitherto acted as contract killers for the Chinese). These Vietnamese gangs, including BTK (“Born to Kill”), were notorious for their exceptional brutality: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Born_to_Kill_(gang)

    During the height of the Chinese-Vietnamese gang war, I’d consider it possible, perhaps even plausible, that the homicide rate of the Vietnamese was higher than that of whites in NYC. Mind you, I don’t know that for a fact (I’d have to check the stats), but possible and perhaps plausible. Intense gang activity is highly correlated with elevated violent and vice crimes.

    With regard to Taiwan, you suggested that indigenous non-Han ancestry probably explained the 200% higher homicide rates compared to China

    Do you just ignore when your interlocutor whom you wish to paint as unreliable just doesn’t fall into your strawman constructs? This is tiresome, but I repeat again what I wrote 7 years ago apparently:

    I merely pointed out that Taiwan had a substantial non-northeast Asian genetic input and so was an outlier compared to Japan, Korea, and China, and could not be considered a strictly “northeast” Asian country. That is all. While I think a different genetic makeup plays a role (about how much, who knows?), of course I acknowledge that there is a whole host of other factors that lead to the elevated murder rate in Taiwan (for starters, it is a major drug transshipment point between Southeast Asia and East Asia and beyond).

    As for this claim you keep repeating:

    The Russian force was heavily outnumbered from the very beginning

    It was not. The Russian army reputedly committed about 60 out of the 168 battalion tactical groups (BTGs) available in the opening rounds of the Ukrainian war. A BTG is the basic fighting maneuver group of the Russian army that is capable of conducting independent operations. That is roughly 48,000 front line “trigger pullers.” And, of course, these were backed by the immensely larger combat support and support services of the Russian armed forces (not to forget air and air elements). In material terms (tanks, artillery, etc.), Russians massively outnumber the Ukrainians. In total, the Russians seemed to have deployed about 200,000 personnel to “the special military operation.”

    Despite what you may have gleaned from the paper strength of the Ukrainian military prior to the commencement of the war, the actual deployed strength of the Ukrainian forces was about 40,000 as of late 2021. Add the fact that the Russians had the initiative as invaders and could pick and choose where to fight (i.e. concentrate forces against Ukrainian weak points), the initial advantage was overwhelmingly on the side of the Russians. The Russians turned out to be a lot less skillful than observers realized, but they aren’t morons. They wouldn’t go to war “heavily outnumbered.”

    so high casualties are hardly necessary to explain the successful Ukrainian counter-attack.

    It’s not because of supposed Ukrainian numerical superiority. It’s because of two reasons: 1) the Russian army turned out to be surprisingly ill-trained and poor at conducting offensive operations and bled itself silly and, on the other side of the ledger, the Ukrainians turned out to be much more skillful and determined (you can see footages of small groups of Ukrainian infantry – hunter-killer teams – ambushing whole Russian mechanized columns on YouTube – that takes an enormous amount of courage and skill to achieve). The performances of the Ukrainian military personnel greatly exceeded the expectations of just about everyone – including the governments of the West.

    And 2) once the Western governments realized that Kiev wasn’t going to fall and that the Russian occupation wasn’t a fait accompli they’d have to accept (a la Crimea), they began to supply the Ukrainians with advanced equipment (the most celebrated of which were Javelin missiles, HIMAR arty/rocket systems, etc.) that has enabled the Ukrainians to overcome the material inferiority they faced.

    It also helped that, contrary to stupid claims of pro-Russian analysts, it was the Ukrainians who feinted well by threatening the south (the Kherson front) and then attacking to the east (the Kharkiv front), which seems to have led to the collapse of the Russian 1st Guard Tank Army (which is – or was – the premier Russian mechanized force). Now, despite surrounding significant Russian fighting units in their counter-offensive, the Ukrainians were not able to completely take advantage of their successes precisely because, they, too, have manpower issues – they weren’t able to completely “shut the trap” and capture the pocketed Russian forces, which allowed many of the latter to retreat to safety.

    if you were to check my comments over the last six months, you’d find that I’d been minimally engaged.

    How convenient for you that you missed the dramatic reversal of the war of the past six months.

    Like I originally said, I suspect you’ve been following the details of the war 20x more closely than I have.

    “20x” is just out of the thin air. The advantage I have over you is that I have greater knowledge on the matter and can do my own assessments instead of relying on others based on “feelz.” I don’t just look up numbers on the internet (and think that the Bundeswehr, the German armed forces, is made up of only 60,000 or so personnel, which doesn’t pass the smell test to anyone with a minimal knowledge of European armed forces – that just shows 1) how quick to jump on the first thing you see that you think validates your views, i.e. “See, Ukrainians have a bigger military than Germany!” and 2) how easy it is to fool you about military mattters).

    But I still don’t regard aggregating and analyzing Ukrainian propaganda-Tweets as a valid method of determining casualties.

    For the tenth time, it’s a lot more valid (because there is photographic evidence which you can falsify/debate/validate) than merely aping the Russian government claims.

    In war, there is an enormous amount of “fog.” The choice is never about finding accurate information vs. inaccurate information, on which to base actions. It’s almost always about relying on more or less accurate information, which is subject to validation/falsification. Anyone who gives you assessments that are based on “feelz” or some vague attributed motivations and doesn’t disclose his exact methodology and datasets are selling things.

    Must I note again that the Oryx site also aggregates Ukrainian equipment losses?

    By the way, I would assess the Ukrainian personnel losses at a much higher multiple of their equipment losses than the Russians in this war or the Americans in Iraq – prior to this war, the Ukrainian army was a lot less “capital-intensive” and was infantry-based, so the same multiple does not apply. Note also that I believe the correlations of forces still favor the Russians in the long run, with all the usual caveats, e.g. the casualty levels, the pace of flow of equipment to the Ukrainian side from the West, the level of Russian mobilization, the rate of Russian equipment production and replacement as well as intangible but important variables such as the political support level in respective countries, the training levels and morale/cohesion of personnel, etc.

    All these arguments you put up are rhetorical arguments meant to show that you weren’t “wrong” or even responsible for being wrong (hence the “I haven’t been paying attention”) – they are not arguments intended to get at the objective truth.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    @Twinkie


    I don’t know about half or 5x or some such, but I would submit that it is possible that Vietnamese have higher crime rate than whites depending on context.
     
    Sure, I think that's very possible. Based upon the limited statistical and anecdotal data I've seen over the years, Vietnamese seem to have approximately the same crime rates as whites, and it's perfectly possible that their crime rates have been substantially higher at various times and places. But there's simply no way they could have half the crime rates of blacks, which would put them at 400% or 500% the crime rate of whites. That was the only position I was maintaining.

    With regard to the Ukraine war, I've repeatedly said I haven't been following it in detail, and never claimed that the Russians were winning huge victories or were about to annihilate the Ukrainian forces. Some people said that and others said the opposite, and I listened to them both and didn't take a position.

    Just as you say, I went to the Wikipedia page very early on, and it claimed that after all the reserves were called up, the total Ukrainian armed forces were something like 600,000 strong, which would be several times larger than the Russian invasion force. Since Wikipedia is so overwhelmingly pro-West and the pro-Russian commenters were saying exactly the same thing, I assumed it was likely correct, but perhaps I was wrong. The Ukrainians now claim they have a million men under arms and Wiki agrees, though I have no idea whether that's true. The pro-Russian side says that's one of the main reasons Putin has called up his 300,000 reserves.

    And you're perfectly correct that my military expertise isn't strong enough that I could easily see that certain numbers didn't make any sense. It's the precise mirror-image of what I'd been saying to you about ethnic crime rates. And that's exactly why I've almost never engaged in the arguments about the Ukraine war over the last seven months.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  258. @Ron Unz
    @Twinkie


    And let’s look at some African countries:

    Kenya 6.4
    Somalia 8.0
    CAR 11.8
    Congo 12.5
     
    I'm awfully, awfully skeptical of homicide statistics in many sub-Saharan African countries. For example, Somalia scarcely had a functioning government in recent decades. Do you really think they carefully aggregate homicide statistics? If you check, you'll discover that South Africa is the only country in that region with large numbers of Covid deaths. The anti-vaxxers claim that proves Covid is a hoax, while I say it's because few of the other countries have functioning public health systems that keep track of such things.

    To repeat myself: Do you still believe that American-born Vietnamese have half the crime rates of American blacks? That would make them roughly 5x as likely to commit crimes as American whites. Are Little Saigons that dangerous?

    With regard to Taiwan, you suggested that indigenous non-Han ancestry probably explained the 200% higher homicide rates compared to China. Suppose (an implausibly high) 20% of Taiwanese are substantially non-Han. For your hypothesis to work, that sub-population would have to have roughly 11x the homicide rates of the Han majority. If so, I think we would have heard about that and the Han government would very harshly cracked down decades ago.

    Again, what has happened on the ground in the past six months? Does it seem that Twinkie was right to argue that the Russians seemed to have suffered heavy casualties and experienced degraded offensive capability or were your experts right that the attack on Kiev was merely a feint and that the Russians were soon going to defeat the Ukrainians in the eastern part of the country?
     
    If you check our exchange, I never took a position on any of those issues, other than what I regarded as your implausibly high casualty estimates. The Russian force was heavily outnumbered from the very beginning, so high casualties are hardly necessary to explain the successful Ukrainian counter-attack. I honestly don't know how the course of battle will go, and if you were to check my comments over the last six months, you'd find that I'd been minimally engaged. Like I originally said, I suspect you've been following the details of the war 20x more closely than I have. But I still don't regard aggregating and analyzing Ukrainian propaganda-Tweets as a valid method of determining casualties.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Twinkie, @Twinkie

    By the way, let me reiterate about summarizing my initial response to your Hispanic crime thesis:

    You remember incorrectly, Mr. Unz. I was skeptical about the extent of your argument (that Hispanic crime rate was comparable to the white rate – I thought it in-between white and black rates) and did not “fiercely argue against it.” I merely “poked some holes” in it and suggested some counter-arguments (meanwhile, there were commenters who were apoplectic and indeed “fiercely argued against it). [boldfaces for emphasis.]

    And, of course, I also stated more than once (indeed multiple times over the years) that I largely accept your thesis that age- and sex-norming closes much of the apparent gap between white and Hispanic crime rates.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    @Twinkie


    did not “fiercely argue against it.” I merely “poked some holes” in it and suggested some counter-arguments (meanwhile, there were commenters who were apoplectic and indeed “fiercely argued against it).

    And, of course, I also stated more than once (indeed multiple times over the years) that I largely accept your thesis that age- and sex-norming closes much of the apparent gap between white and Hispanic crime rates.
     
    Sure, "fiercely" is obviously a subjective appraisal and considering that it had been seven years ago, that's just how I remembered it.

    I think the main reason I even brought it up was what I considered your rather insulting recent reference elsewhere to my American Pravda series, which has been my main project since 2018, involving an enormous amount of time and effort. And with regard to that, I do hope you'll respond to the question I left on the other thread.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  259. @Twinkie
    @Ron Unz


    I’m awfully, awfully skeptical of homicide statistics in many sub-Saharan African countries.
     
    And you should be. But the homicide statistics in Southeast Asia and especially in East Asia are much more reliable.

    Japan 0.3
    South Korea 0.9
    China 1.0

    Meanwhile, in Indochina:

    Vietnam 3.3
    Laos 5.9
    Cambodia 6.5
     

    Do you disagree that the Indochinese are much more homicidal on average than the Chinese, Japanese, and the South Koreans in their home countries? And where is homicide much more likely to be covered up/unreported, Japan or Cambodia?

    Do you still believe that American-born Vietnamese have half the crime rates of American blacks? That would make them roughly 5x as likely to commit crimes as American whites. Are Little Saigons that dangerous?
     
    I don't know about half or 5x or some such, but I would submit that it is possible that Vietnamese have higher crime rate than whites depending on context. In the 1980's, there was a bloody gang war in Chinatown, in which the more established Chinese criminal groups fought against rising gangs that were supported by the Vietnamese (who hitherto acted as contract killers for the Chinese). These Vietnamese gangs, including BTK ("Born to Kill"), were notorious for their exceptional brutality: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Born_to_Kill_(gang)

    During the height of the Chinese-Vietnamese gang war, I'd consider it possible, perhaps even plausible, that the homicide rate of the Vietnamese was higher than that of whites in NYC. Mind you, I don't know that for a fact (I'd have to check the stats), but possible and perhaps plausible. Intense gang activity is highly correlated with elevated violent and vice crimes.


    With regard to Taiwan, you suggested that indigenous non-Han ancestry probably explained the 200% higher homicide rates compared to China
     
    Do you just ignore when your interlocutor whom you wish to paint as unreliable just doesn't fall into your strawman constructs? This is tiresome, but I repeat again what I wrote 7 years ago apparently:

    I merely pointed out that Taiwan had a substantial non-northeast Asian genetic input and so was an outlier compared to Japan, Korea, and China, and could not be considered a strictly “northeast” Asian country. That is all. While I think a different genetic makeup plays a role (about how much, who knows?), of course I acknowledge that there is a whole host of other factors that lead to the elevated murder rate in Taiwan (for starters, it is a major drug transshipment point between Southeast Asia and East Asia and beyond).
     
    As for this claim you keep repeating:

    The Russian force was heavily outnumbered from the very beginning
     
    It was not. The Russian army reputedly committed about 60 out of the 168 battalion tactical groups (BTGs) available in the opening rounds of the Ukrainian war. A BTG is the basic fighting maneuver group of the Russian army that is capable of conducting independent operations. That is roughly 48,000 front line "trigger pullers." And, of course, these were backed by the immensely larger combat support and support services of the Russian armed forces (not to forget air and air elements). In material terms (tanks, artillery, etc.), Russians massively outnumber the Ukrainians. In total, the Russians seemed to have deployed about 200,000 personnel to "the special military operation."

    Despite what you may have gleaned from the paper strength of the Ukrainian military prior to the commencement of the war, the actual deployed strength of the Ukrainian forces was about 40,000 as of late 2021. Add the fact that the Russians had the initiative as invaders and could pick and choose where to fight (i.e. concentrate forces against Ukrainian weak points), the initial advantage was overwhelmingly on the side of the Russians. The Russians turned out to be a lot less skillful than observers realized, but they aren't morons. They wouldn't go to war "heavily outnumbered."


    so high casualties are hardly necessary to explain the successful Ukrainian counter-attack.
     
    It's not because of supposed Ukrainian numerical superiority. It's because of two reasons: 1) the Russian army turned out to be surprisingly ill-trained and poor at conducting offensive operations and bled itself silly and, on the other side of the ledger, the Ukrainians turned out to be much more skillful and determined (you can see footages of small groups of Ukrainian infantry - hunter-killer teams - ambushing whole Russian mechanized columns on YouTube - that takes an enormous amount of courage and skill to achieve). The performances of the Ukrainian military personnel greatly exceeded the expectations of just about everyone - including the governments of the West.

    And 2) once the Western governments realized that Kiev wasn't going to fall and that the Russian occupation wasn't a fait accompli they'd have to accept (a la Crimea), they began to supply the Ukrainians with advanced equipment (the most celebrated of which were Javelin missiles, HIMAR arty/rocket systems, etc.) that has enabled the Ukrainians to overcome the material inferiority they faced.

    It also helped that, contrary to stupid claims of pro-Russian analysts, it was the Ukrainians who feinted well by threatening the south (the Kherson front) and then attacking to the east (the Kharkiv front), which seems to have led to the collapse of the Russian 1st Guard Tank Army (which is - or was - the premier Russian mechanized force). Now, despite surrounding significant Russian fighting units in their counter-offensive, the Ukrainians were not able to completely take advantage of their successes precisely because, they, too, have manpower issues - they weren't able to completely "shut the trap" and capture the pocketed Russian forces, which allowed many of the latter to retreat to safety.


    if you were to check my comments over the last six months, you’d find that I’d been minimally engaged.
     
    How convenient for you that you missed the dramatic reversal of the war of the past six months.

    Like I originally said, I suspect you’ve been following the details of the war 20x more closely than I have.
     
    "20x" is just out of the thin air. The advantage I have over you is that I have greater knowledge on the matter and can do my own assessments instead of relying on others based on "feelz." I don't just look up numbers on the internet (and think that the Bundeswehr, the German armed forces, is made up of only 60,000 or so personnel, which doesn't pass the smell test to anyone with a minimal knowledge of European armed forces - that just shows 1) how quick to jump on the first thing you see that you think validates your views, i.e. "See, Ukrainians have a bigger military than Germany!" and 2) how easy it is to fool you about military mattters).

    But I still don’t regard aggregating and analyzing Ukrainian propaganda-Tweets as a valid method of determining casualties.
     
    For the tenth time, it's a lot more valid (because there is photographic evidence which you can falsify/debate/validate) than merely aping the Russian government claims.

    In war, there is an enormous amount of "fog." The choice is never about finding accurate information vs. inaccurate information, on which to base actions. It's almost always about relying on more or less accurate information, which is subject to validation/falsification. Anyone who gives you assessments that are based on "feelz" or some vague attributed motivations and doesn't disclose his exact methodology and datasets are selling things.

    Must I note again that the Oryx site also aggregates Ukrainian equipment losses?

    By the way, I would assess the Ukrainian personnel losses at a much higher multiple of their equipment losses than the Russians in this war or the Americans in Iraq - prior to this war, the Ukrainian army was a lot less "capital-intensive" and was infantry-based, so the same multiple does not apply. Note also that I believe the correlations of forces still favor the Russians in the long run, with all the usual caveats, e.g. the casualty levels, the pace of flow of equipment to the Ukrainian side from the West, the level of Russian mobilization, the rate of Russian equipment production and replacement as well as intangible but important variables such as the political support level in respective countries, the training levels and morale/cohesion of personnel, etc.

    All these arguments you put up are rhetorical arguments meant to show that you weren't "wrong" or even responsible for being wrong (hence the "I haven't been paying attention") - they are not arguments intended to get at the objective truth.

    Replies: @Ron Unz

    I don’t know about half or 5x or some such, but I would submit that it is possible that Vietnamese have higher crime rate than whites depending on context.

    Sure, I think that’s very possible. Based upon the limited statistical and anecdotal data I’ve seen over the years, Vietnamese seem to have approximately the same crime rates as whites, and it’s perfectly possible that their crime rates have been substantially higher at various times and places. But there’s simply no way they could have half the crime rates of blacks, which would put them at 400% or 500% the crime rate of whites. That was the only position I was maintaining.

    With regard to the Ukraine war, I’ve repeatedly said I haven’t been following it in detail, and never claimed that the Russians were winning huge victories or were about to annihilate the Ukrainian forces. Some people said that and others said the opposite, and I listened to them both and didn’t take a position.

    Just as you say, I went to the Wikipedia page very early on, and it claimed that after all the reserves were called up, the total Ukrainian armed forces were something like 600,000 strong, which would be several times larger than the Russian invasion force. Since Wikipedia is so overwhelmingly pro-West and the pro-Russian commenters were saying exactly the same thing, I assumed it was likely correct, but perhaps I was wrong. The Ukrainians now claim they have a million men under arms and Wiki agrees, though I have no idea whether that’s true. The pro-Russian side says that’s one of the main reasons Putin has called up his 300,000 reserves.

    And you’re perfectly correct that my military expertise isn’t strong enough that I could easily see that certain numbers didn’t make any sense. It’s the precise mirror-image of what I’d been saying to you about ethnic crime rates. And that’s exactly why I’ve almost never engaged in the arguments about the Ukraine war over the last seven months.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Ron Unz


    the total Ukrainian armed forces were something like 600,000 strong, which would be several times larger than the Russian invasion force. Since Wikipedia is so overwhelmingly pro-West and the pro-Russian commenters were saying exactly the same thing, I assumed it was likely correct, but perhaps I was wrong. The Ukrainians now claim they have a million men under arms and Wiki agrees, though I have no idea whether that’s true.
     
    Although I can't tell anything close to the precise figure, I am pretty sure that the Ukrainian forces total in the hundreds of thousands or more today. But, then again, the Ukrainians are now fighting an existential war of national defense - you would expect the country to be in a "total war" mode. But that wasn't the case when Russia invaded.

    People (esp. "hardline pro-Russian" types) who decry why Putin didn't launch a larger scale invasion simply have no clue what it's to like to organize a large-scale military operation. A larger invasion would have required a longer and more transparent build-up of forces, which likely would have triggered a counter-mobilization on the Ukrainian side as well (and earlier large-scale aid from the West). Any chance of a "decapitation" strike would have evaporated. In war, surprise is a crucial element for the side on offense.

    It’s the precise mirror-image of what I’d been saying to you about ethnic crime rates.
     
    Before my work was re-purposed for CT, I worked on organized crime - I'm well-versed in "ethnic crimes," especially as they pertain to the latter.
  260. @Twinkie
    @Ron Unz

    By the way, let me reiterate about summarizing my initial response to your Hispanic crime thesis:


    You remember incorrectly, Mr. Unz. I was skeptical about the extent of your argument (that Hispanic crime rate was comparable to the white rate – I thought it in-between white and black rates) and did not “fiercely argue against it.” I merely “poked some holes” in it and suggested some counter-arguments (meanwhile, there were commenters who were apoplectic and indeed “fiercely argued against it). [boldfaces for emphasis.]
     
    And, of course, I also stated more than once (indeed multiple times over the years) that I largely accept your thesis that age- and sex-norming closes much of the apparent gap between white and Hispanic crime rates.

    Replies: @Ron Unz

    did not “fiercely argue against it.” I merely “poked some holes” in it and suggested some counter-arguments (meanwhile, there were commenters who were apoplectic and indeed “fiercely argued against it).

    And, of course, I also stated more than once (indeed multiple times over the years) that I largely accept your thesis that age- and sex-norming closes much of the apparent gap between white and Hispanic crime rates.

    Sure, “fiercely” is obviously a subjective appraisal and considering that it had been seven years ago, that’s just how I remembered it.

    I think the main reason I even brought it up was what I considered your rather insulting recent reference elsewhere to my American Pravda series, which has been my main project since 2018, involving an enormous amount of time and effort. And with regard to that, I do hope you’ll respond to the question I left on the other thread.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Ron Unz


    what I considered your rather insulting recent reference elsewhere to my American Pravda series
     
    You would have to cite my words. I don't think anything I wrote about you comes even close to the unwarranted insinuations and personal attacks you made on me and my character, such as implying that I must work in military contracting and must be turning a blind eye to truth to rationalize my money-making.

    Replies: @Ron Unz

  261. @Ron Unz
    @Twinkie


    I don’t know about half or 5x or some such, but I would submit that it is possible that Vietnamese have higher crime rate than whites depending on context.
     
    Sure, I think that's very possible. Based upon the limited statistical and anecdotal data I've seen over the years, Vietnamese seem to have approximately the same crime rates as whites, and it's perfectly possible that their crime rates have been substantially higher at various times and places. But there's simply no way they could have half the crime rates of blacks, which would put them at 400% or 500% the crime rate of whites. That was the only position I was maintaining.

    With regard to the Ukraine war, I've repeatedly said I haven't been following it in detail, and never claimed that the Russians were winning huge victories or were about to annihilate the Ukrainian forces. Some people said that and others said the opposite, and I listened to them both and didn't take a position.

    Just as you say, I went to the Wikipedia page very early on, and it claimed that after all the reserves were called up, the total Ukrainian armed forces were something like 600,000 strong, which would be several times larger than the Russian invasion force. Since Wikipedia is so overwhelmingly pro-West and the pro-Russian commenters were saying exactly the same thing, I assumed it was likely correct, but perhaps I was wrong. The Ukrainians now claim they have a million men under arms and Wiki agrees, though I have no idea whether that's true. The pro-Russian side says that's one of the main reasons Putin has called up his 300,000 reserves.

    And you're perfectly correct that my military expertise isn't strong enough that I could easily see that certain numbers didn't make any sense. It's the precise mirror-image of what I'd been saying to you about ethnic crime rates. And that's exactly why I've almost never engaged in the arguments about the Ukraine war over the last seven months.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    the total Ukrainian armed forces were something like 600,000 strong, which would be several times larger than the Russian invasion force. Since Wikipedia is so overwhelmingly pro-West and the pro-Russian commenters were saying exactly the same thing, I assumed it was likely correct, but perhaps I was wrong. The Ukrainians now claim they have a million men under arms and Wiki agrees, though I have no idea whether that’s true.

    Although I can’t tell anything close to the precise figure, I am pretty sure that the Ukrainian forces total in the hundreds of thousands or more today. But, then again, the Ukrainians are now fighting an existential war of national defense – you would expect the country to be in a “total war” mode. But that wasn’t the case when Russia invaded.

    People (esp. “hardline pro-Russian” types) who decry why Putin didn’t launch a larger scale invasion simply have no clue what it’s to like to organize a large-scale military operation. A larger invasion would have required a longer and more transparent build-up of forces, which likely would have triggered a counter-mobilization on the Ukrainian side as well (and earlier large-scale aid from the West). Any chance of a “decapitation” strike would have evaporated. In war, surprise is a crucial element for the side on offense.

    It’s the precise mirror-image of what I’d been saying to you about ethnic crime rates.

    Before my work was re-purposed for CT, I worked on organized crime – I’m well-versed in “ethnic crimes,” especially as they pertain to the latter.

  262. @Ron Unz
    @Twinkie


    did not “fiercely argue against it.” I merely “poked some holes” in it and suggested some counter-arguments (meanwhile, there were commenters who were apoplectic and indeed “fiercely argued against it).

    And, of course, I also stated more than once (indeed multiple times over the years) that I largely accept your thesis that age- and sex-norming closes much of the apparent gap between white and Hispanic crime rates.
     
    Sure, "fiercely" is obviously a subjective appraisal and considering that it had been seven years ago, that's just how I remembered it.

    I think the main reason I even brought it up was what I considered your rather insulting recent reference elsewhere to my American Pravda series, which has been my main project since 2018, involving an enormous amount of time and effort. And with regard to that, I do hope you'll respond to the question I left on the other thread.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    what I considered your rather insulting recent reference elsewhere to my American Pravda series

    You would have to cite my words. I don’t think anything I wrote about you comes even close to the unwarranted insinuations and personal attacks you made on me and my character, such as implying that I must work in military contracting and must be turning a blind eye to truth to rationalize my money-making.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    @Twinkie


    You would have to cite my words. I don’t think anything I wrote about you comes even close to the unwarranted insinuations and personal attacks you made on me and my character, such as implying that I must work in military contracting and must be turning a blind eye to truth to rationalize my money-making.
     
    Well, I assumed you were referring to my American Pravda articles a few days ago:

    Then there are other articles of his that are very long on conjectures and “textual analysis” and light on evidence, which are much less convincing to say the least. And, yes, I find some of his views quite cranky and deranged
     
    https://www.unz.com/isteve/larry-summers-lets-talk-about-discrimination-against-jews-at-stanford-in-1953/#comment-5605348

    And I already apologized earlier this year for mistakenly assuming you were in the military contracting business. However, you had described your work as a military contractor in some early comments, so I think I can hardly be blamed for reading and remembering those:

    I was a defense contractor for like 5 minutes years and year ago. I didn’t last long, because I wouldn’t sell out my country’s interests to the PRC (which my employer did). I wrote a little bit about it on Unz somewhere.
     
    https://www.unz.com/isteve/bucha-more-like-the-ss-or-the-lapd/#comment-5284671

    Replies: @Twinkie

  263. @Ron Unz
    @Twinkie


    And let’s look at some African countries:

    Kenya 6.4
    Somalia 8.0
    CAR 11.8
    Congo 12.5
     
    I'm awfully, awfully skeptical of homicide statistics in many sub-Saharan African countries. For example, Somalia scarcely had a functioning government in recent decades. Do you really think they carefully aggregate homicide statistics? If you check, you'll discover that South Africa is the only country in that region with large numbers of Covid deaths. The anti-vaxxers claim that proves Covid is a hoax, while I say it's because few of the other countries have functioning public health systems that keep track of such things.

    To repeat myself: Do you still believe that American-born Vietnamese have half the crime rates of American blacks? That would make them roughly 5x as likely to commit crimes as American whites. Are Little Saigons that dangerous?

    With regard to Taiwan, you suggested that indigenous non-Han ancestry probably explained the 200% higher homicide rates compared to China. Suppose (an implausibly high) 20% of Taiwanese are substantially non-Han. For your hypothesis to work, that sub-population would have to have roughly 11x the homicide rates of the Han majority. If so, I think we would have heard about that and the Han government would very harshly cracked down decades ago.

    Again, what has happened on the ground in the past six months? Does it seem that Twinkie was right to argue that the Russians seemed to have suffered heavy casualties and experienced degraded offensive capability or were your experts right that the attack on Kiev was merely a feint and that the Russians were soon going to defeat the Ukrainians in the eastern part of the country?
     
    If you check our exchange, I never took a position on any of those issues, other than what I regarded as your implausibly high casualty estimates. The Russian force was heavily outnumbered from the very beginning, so high casualties are hardly necessary to explain the successful Ukrainian counter-attack. I honestly don't know how the course of battle will go, and if you were to check my comments over the last six months, you'd find that I'd been minimally engaged. Like I originally said, I suspect you've been following the details of the war 20x more closely than I have. But I still don't regard aggregating and analyzing Ukrainian propaganda-Tweets as a valid method of determining casualties.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Twinkie, @Twinkie

    By the way, you never answered this:

    You claimed that the reason the American-born Mexican crime number is so elevated compared to foreign-born Mexican number is because the foreign-born Mexican criminals lie so as not to be deported. If so, I asked, wouldn’t other foreign-born ethnic criminals do the same? Yet the “assimilation curse” multiple is considerably lower with East Asians. Now you say this “might be due to a wide variety of different social factors.” Such as what? And by what mechanism?

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    @Twinkie


    By the way, you never answered this:
     
    I can't say why Mexican immigrants would lie about their status more than Asian ones, but the clear evidence is that they do. I'd speculate that's because the overwhelming majority of deportations involve Hispanics, with the popular notion of "illegal immigrant" being in that category. So maybe the Mexican inmates have known many friends and relatives who were deported and are much more nervous about that risk.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  264. @Twinkie
    @Ron Unz

    By the way, you never answered this:


    You claimed that the reason the American-born Mexican crime number is so elevated compared to foreign-born Mexican number is because the foreign-born Mexican criminals lie so as not to be deported. If so, I asked, wouldn’t other foreign-born ethnic criminals do the same? Yet the “assimilation curse” multiple is considerably lower with East Asians. Now you say this “might be due to a wide variety of different social factors.” Such as what? And by what mechanism?
     

    Replies: @Ron Unz

    By the way, you never answered this:

    I can’t say why Mexican immigrants would lie about their status more than Asian ones, but the clear evidence is that they do. I’d speculate that’s because the overwhelming majority of deportations involve Hispanics, with the popular notion of “illegal immigrant” being in that category. So maybe the Mexican inmates have known many friends and relatives who were deported and are much more nervous about that risk.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Ron Unz


    I can’t say why Mexican immigrants would lie about their status more than Asian ones, but the clear evidence is that they do.
     
    What is this "clear evidence"?

    I’d speculate
     
    So it's just speculation. There is no supporting evidence to the position that the foreign-born/American-born difference in incarceration rate is purely an artifact of the former lying about their status?

    Color me unconvinced.

    Replies: @Ron Unz

  265. @Ron Unz
    @Twinkie


    By the way, you never answered this:
     
    I can't say why Mexican immigrants would lie about their status more than Asian ones, but the clear evidence is that they do. I'd speculate that's because the overwhelming majority of deportations involve Hispanics, with the popular notion of "illegal immigrant" being in that category. So maybe the Mexican inmates have known many friends and relatives who were deported and are much more nervous about that risk.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    I can’t say why Mexican immigrants would lie about their status more than Asian ones, but the clear evidence is that they do.

    What is this “clear evidence”?

    I’d speculate

    So it’s just speculation. There is no supporting evidence to the position that the foreign-born/American-born difference in incarceration rate is purely an artifact of the former lying about their status?

    Color me unconvinced.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    @Twinkie


    So it’s just speculation. There is no supporting evidence to the position that the foreign-born/American-born difference in incarceration rate is purely an artifact of the former lying about their status?
     
    Well, if they're telling the truth, then American-born Mex-Ams apparently have a crime rate 700% higher than immigrant ones. But that's utterly, utterly impossible for the reasons I originally gave in my article. Among other things, over the last few decades, the prime-crime age Mex-Am population has shifted from being mostly foreign-born to being mostly American-born, and if the difference in underlying criminality were 700%, crime rates would have skyrocketed, but instead they declined.

    There's quite possibly a difference in crime rates, maybe something like 30% or 50%. But not 700%. So most of those inmates must have been lying about their immigration status.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  266. @Twinkie
    @Ron Unz


    I can’t say why Mexican immigrants would lie about their status more than Asian ones, but the clear evidence is that they do.
     
    What is this "clear evidence"?

    I’d speculate
     
    So it's just speculation. There is no supporting evidence to the position that the foreign-born/American-born difference in incarceration rate is purely an artifact of the former lying about their status?

    Color me unconvinced.

    Replies: @Ron Unz

    So it’s just speculation. There is no supporting evidence to the position that the foreign-born/American-born difference in incarceration rate is purely an artifact of the former lying about their status?

    Well, if they’re telling the truth, then American-born Mex-Ams apparently have a crime rate 700% higher than immigrant ones. But that’s utterly, utterly impossible for the reasons I originally gave in my article. Among other things, over the last few decades, the prime-crime age Mex-Am population has shifted from being mostly foreign-born to being mostly American-born, and if the difference in underlying criminality were 700%, crime rates would have skyrocketed, but instead they declined.

    There’s quite possibly a difference in crime rates, maybe something like 30% or 50%. But not 700%. So most of those inmates must have been lying about their immigration status.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Ron Unz


    So most of those inmates must have been lying
     
    That's a conjecture or a suspicion at best - you don't offer a lick of evidence for it. You also don't explain why the crime "assimilation curse" is so much greater with Mexicans than with East Asians - or, put another way, why foreign-born Mexican arrestees supposedly lie to a greater than foreign-born East Asian arrestees.

    I suggest an alternate speculation - precisely because foreign-born Mexicans fear deportations, they try not to commit crimes and get arrested (at least to a greater degree than American-born ones) and perhaps they also have less of a social pathology than the latter. I have a supporting bit of evidence for this - both foreign-born Hispanics and foreign-born Asians have lower out-of-wedlock birthrate than their respective American-born counterparts (another "assimilation curse").

    Replies: @Ron Unz

  267. @Twinkie
    @Ron Unz


    what I considered your rather insulting recent reference elsewhere to my American Pravda series
     
    You would have to cite my words. I don't think anything I wrote about you comes even close to the unwarranted insinuations and personal attacks you made on me and my character, such as implying that I must work in military contracting and must be turning a blind eye to truth to rationalize my money-making.

    Replies: @Ron Unz

    You would have to cite my words. I don’t think anything I wrote about you comes even close to the unwarranted insinuations and personal attacks you made on me and my character, such as implying that I must work in military contracting and must be turning a blind eye to truth to rationalize my money-making.

    Well, I assumed you were referring to my American Pravda articles a few days ago:

    Then there are other articles of his that are very long on conjectures and “textual analysis” and light on evidence, which are much less convincing to say the least. And, yes, I find some of his views quite cranky and deranged

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/larry-summers-lets-talk-about-discrimination-against-jews-at-stanford-in-1953/#comment-5605348

    And I already apologized earlier this year for mistakenly assuming you were in the military contracting business. However, you had described your work as a military contractor in some early comments, so I think I can hardly be blamed for reading and remembering those:

    I was a defense contractor for like 5 minutes years and year ago. I didn’t last long, because I wouldn’t sell out my country’s interests to the PRC (which my employer did). I wrote a little bit about it on Unz somewhere.

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/bucha-more-like-the-ss-or-the-lapd/#comment-5284671

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Ron Unz


    And I already apologized earlier this year for mistakenly assuming you were in the military contracting business.
     
    That was gracious and I appreciate it, but it is not the only time you engaged in what I call "internet armchair psych analysis" instead of arguing the substance of my comments.

    As for this:

    Then there are other articles of his that are very long on conjectures and “textual analysis” and light on evidence, which are much less convincing to say the least.
     
    I stand by it. There are some writings of yours that are highly data-reliant (which are, by and large, convincing), but others that rely more on conjectures (often imputed motives) and "textual analysis" - I don't find those nearly as convincing.

    And, yes, I find some of his views quite cranky and deranged
     
    Your advocation for "nationally broadcast mass treason tribunals and public executions" come to mind here.
  268. @Ron Unz
    @Twinkie


    You would have to cite my words. I don’t think anything I wrote about you comes even close to the unwarranted insinuations and personal attacks you made on me and my character, such as implying that I must work in military contracting and must be turning a blind eye to truth to rationalize my money-making.
     
    Well, I assumed you were referring to my American Pravda articles a few days ago:

    Then there are other articles of his that are very long on conjectures and “textual analysis” and light on evidence, which are much less convincing to say the least. And, yes, I find some of his views quite cranky and deranged
     
    https://www.unz.com/isteve/larry-summers-lets-talk-about-discrimination-against-jews-at-stanford-in-1953/#comment-5605348

    And I already apologized earlier this year for mistakenly assuming you were in the military contracting business. However, you had described your work as a military contractor in some early comments, so I think I can hardly be blamed for reading and remembering those:

    I was a defense contractor for like 5 minutes years and year ago. I didn’t last long, because I wouldn’t sell out my country’s interests to the PRC (which my employer did). I wrote a little bit about it on Unz somewhere.
     
    https://www.unz.com/isteve/bucha-more-like-the-ss-or-the-lapd/#comment-5284671

    Replies: @Twinkie

    And I already apologized earlier this year for mistakenly assuming you were in the military contracting business.

    That was gracious and I appreciate it, but it is not the only time you engaged in what I call “internet armchair psych analysis” instead of arguing the substance of my comments.

    As for this:

    Then there are other articles of his that are very long on conjectures and “textual analysis” and light on evidence, which are much less convincing to say the least.

    I stand by it. There are some writings of yours that are highly data-reliant (which are, by and large, convincing), but others that rely more on conjectures (often imputed motives) and “textual analysis” – I don’t find those nearly as convincing.

    And, yes, I find some of his views quite cranky and deranged

    Your advocation for “nationally broadcast mass treason tribunals and public executions” come to mind here.

  269. @Ron Unz
    @Twinkie


    So it’s just speculation. There is no supporting evidence to the position that the foreign-born/American-born difference in incarceration rate is purely an artifact of the former lying about their status?
     
    Well, if they're telling the truth, then American-born Mex-Ams apparently have a crime rate 700% higher than immigrant ones. But that's utterly, utterly impossible for the reasons I originally gave in my article. Among other things, over the last few decades, the prime-crime age Mex-Am population has shifted from being mostly foreign-born to being mostly American-born, and if the difference in underlying criminality were 700%, crime rates would have skyrocketed, but instead they declined.

    There's quite possibly a difference in crime rates, maybe something like 30% or 50%. But not 700%. So most of those inmates must have been lying about their immigration status.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    So most of those inmates must have been lying

    That’s a conjecture or a suspicion at best – you don’t offer a lick of evidence for it. You also don’t explain why the crime “assimilation curse” is so much greater with Mexicans than with East Asians – or, put another way, why foreign-born Mexican arrestees supposedly lie to a greater than foreign-born East Asian arrestees.

    I suggest an alternate speculation – precisely because foreign-born Mexicans fear deportations, they try not to commit crimes and get arrested (at least to a greater degree than American-born ones) and perhaps they also have less of a social pathology than the latter. I have a supporting bit of evidence for this – both foreign-born Hispanics and foreign-born Asians have lower out-of-wedlock birthrate than their respective American-born counterparts (another “assimilation curse”).

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    @Twinkie


    I suggest an alternate speculation – precisely because foreign-born Mexicans fear deportations, they try not to commit crimes and get arrested (at least to a greater degree than American-born ones) and perhaps they also have less of a social pathology than the latter.
     
    I agree entirely with that. It's well-documented in the literature, I've mentioned it in my articles, and I'm not aware of anyone who disputes that difference. Everyone who follows the issue knows that immigrant Hispanics have lower crime rates than native-born ones, and the same is true for most other ethnic groups, including Asians.

    However, the issue under dispute is the magnitude of the difference. And it's utterly, utterly impossible that American-born Hispanics have crime rates 700% greater than immigrant ones, which were the figures you'd read and naively accepted. I've already explained the obvious reasons that's totally impossible. And since relative incarceration rates are totally impossible, the Hispanics must be lying about their status at unusually high rates. Since you asked, I speculated about the possible reasons, but I don't really care why.
  270. @Twinkie
    @Ron Unz


    So most of those inmates must have been lying
     
    That's a conjecture or a suspicion at best - you don't offer a lick of evidence for it. You also don't explain why the crime "assimilation curse" is so much greater with Mexicans than with East Asians - or, put another way, why foreign-born Mexican arrestees supposedly lie to a greater than foreign-born East Asian arrestees.

    I suggest an alternate speculation - precisely because foreign-born Mexicans fear deportations, they try not to commit crimes and get arrested (at least to a greater degree than American-born ones) and perhaps they also have less of a social pathology than the latter. I have a supporting bit of evidence for this - both foreign-born Hispanics and foreign-born Asians have lower out-of-wedlock birthrate than their respective American-born counterparts (another "assimilation curse").

    Replies: @Ron Unz

    I suggest an alternate speculation – precisely because foreign-born Mexicans fear deportations, they try not to commit crimes and get arrested (at least to a greater degree than American-born ones) and perhaps they also have less of a social pathology than the latter.

    I agree entirely with that. It’s well-documented in the literature, I’ve mentioned it in my articles, and I’m not aware of anyone who disputes that difference. Everyone who follows the issue knows that immigrant Hispanics have lower crime rates than native-born ones, and the same is true for most other ethnic groups, including Asians.

    However, the issue under dispute is the magnitude of the difference. And it’s utterly, utterly impossible that American-born Hispanics have crime rates 700% greater than immigrant ones, which were the figures you’d read and naively accepted. I’ve already explained the obvious reasons that’s totally impossible. And since relative incarceration rates are totally impossible, the Hispanics must be lying about their status at unusually high rates. Since you asked, I speculated about the possible reasons, but I don’t really care why.

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